# Honour dog leaves before being released



## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

Honour dog leaves the honour position to go sniff or return to the truck and shows no interest in the action in the field nor interferes with the working dog as it races out to pick up a mark. The judges have not released the honour dog yet either because the working dog has not reached a pre-agreed distance from the line or the judge wants to see at least one bird returned to hand by the working dog. The judges have given the handler of the working dog his/her number.

Question #1 Has the honour dog incurred an infraction by moving before being released? If so what penalty?

Question #2 Is the handler of the honour dog permitted to speak to his dog after the working dog has been given a release by the judges and in turn the handler has released his working dog to retrieve a mark in a field trial?

Question #3 Is there a penalty to the honour dog who lays down at the honour position?

For the many hunt test folks and field trial folkswhat does your rule book say?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Assuming AKC

1) dog left honor, it broke. End of your day thanks for playing. 
2) handler can speak quietly to the honor dog the entire time
3) no, unless laying down prevents the dog from seeing the marks and the working dog.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Corey is correct as the rules below state:

"Section 6. Honoring. In Senior and Master Tests, 
every dog shall honor in at least one hunting situation 
involving the retrieve of a marked fall(s) by remaining on 
the line off-lead while the working dog retrieves, unless 
otherwise directed or until dismissed by the Judges.
Only one dog at a time may be required to honor the 
retrieve of the working dog. The honoring dog must be in 
an area designated by the judges. The specific positions 
(sitting, lying down, etc.) of the honoring dog will be 
determined by the handler provided the honoring dog is 
positioned to clearly see all the marks without having to 
reposition itself."


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> Corey is correct as the rules below state:
> 
> "Section 6. Honoring. In Senior and Master Tests,
> every dog shall honor in at least one hunting situation
> ...



Pretty clear whats allowed.

OP's dog broke.... Have a nice day, your done.

I dont however agree with the rule that allows a dog to lie down.

I mean would you let your dog lie down when its the working dog? And why wouldnt you! Its because you want to make sure they can SEE!!

The honor dog in MY mind is there in real life circumstances to be part of the hunt,, and if needed for some reason, to help pick up birds..
Its part of the days hunt..

I dont like piggy dogs that dont "Want"

Now,,,, Dont all a you with lazy dogs get all wadded up! Gooser aint a Judge,, wont EVER be a Judge! I just like to come on here and spew my silly Opinion, when it raining so hard outside , that you have to consider you might drown if you go out!

Such is the case this A,M. Thats why I is not training,, and wasting time posting on the internet, ( Training Group)

Iknowits more information than you probably care to read,, but again,, I dont care if I bore you!

Gooser


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> ....
> I dont however agree with the rule that allows a dog to lie down.
> 
> I mean would you let your dog lie down when its the working dog? ....
> ...



Yes, when "Gooser" hunting all the time 
photo lifted off a dog blind web page


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

I place my dogs in a down for the honor unless it will hinder their view of the birds. Have never had a judge tell me a down is not acceptable.

Meredith


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

I disagree, given the OP's precise scenario. 

_1. Break. It is generally understood that a break occurs
when a dog makes a movement, that, in the opinion of the
Judges, indicates *a deliberate intent to retrieve* without having 
been ordered to do so, and cannot be brought under
control by the handler._

and

_Section 11. Interference. In a Senior or Master
Hunting Test, when a dog is ordered by the Judge to
retrieve a fall, and another dog *breaks for the same fall*
and *interferes *with the working dog to the extent of
causing it in any way to make a faulty performance, the
dog interfered with shall be considered as not having
been tested and given another evaluation_

This hypothetical dog has neither: 1. Shown an intent to retrieve 2. Interfered with the working dog, nor 3. Failed to show that he is able to be brought under control by his handler.

Maybe this is a 10-yo "seen it all" dog that knows he's already picked up those marks, has completed his honor since the working dog has torn off for the go-bird, and would rather go sniff where that girl dog had just peed behind the mat? If I were judging this dog on honor and the working dog has left, I would likely quietly ask the handler to re-heel, then if done promptly, release him from honor. If he's back at the truck or in the gallery or eating a bird off the rack, then we have a problem.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

I agree with Mark. The scenario described doesn't reflect any violation. And I see nothing wrong with the honor lying down.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I dont like piggy dogs that dont "Want"



In FT, you are more likely to see the wild and crazy, Steve Martin, dogs in a down. That is because the handlers believe that the down gives them more control over the dog than the sit. So your premise is flawed.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

According to the FT Rule Book




> Page 27
> 
> 5. Judges shall in their discretion determine the number of dogs that shall be worked or kept on line simultaneously. In at least one test involving the retrieve of a marked fall in all stakes, except Derby, every dog should be kept on line off leash while another dog works. If a dog has failed the test and is asked to remain on line to honor the work of the next running dog, the Judges may direct that the dog honor on lead or off lead as they deem appropriate.
> 6. When coming to line to be tested, and while on line, *the dog and handler should assume such positions as may be directed by the Judges.*
> Dogs should be considered under judgment from the time they are called to come to the line until they have left the line and are back of all the Judges and on leash.





> Page 32
> 
> During the period from the moment when the handler signals readiness for the birds to be thrown *until the dog’s number is called, the handler of the working or honoring dog shall remain silent*. Also, in all marking tests during such period, the handler’s hands shall remain quietly in close proximity to his body.



If it were a field trial and I were judging

1. Drop. Honor is a test of obedience. Dog failed. 
2. No issue
3. Depending on how handler got the dog to down position, no issue.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

I've never sent one of my dogs to retrieve from the down position, so if they elect to lie down on honor I always breathe a little easier.


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

My dog has laid down on honor plenty of times. I didn't command him to, he just did it. He knew his "turn" was over, and he just laid down after running. He's not a pig by any means. Runs with a head of steam, but has an off switch too.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> If it were a field trial and I were judging
> 
> 1. Drop. Honor is a test of obedience. Dog failed.
> [/SIZE][/FONT]


Does the same apply to the dog that does not heel from the holding blind to the line? It is obedience and the dog is under judgement.

In years past many of today's dogs would be dropped for their poor line manners. This is an area IMHO that has become too lax.

Tim


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Tim Carrion said:


> Does the same apply to the dog that does not heel from the holding blind to the line? It is obedience and the dog is under judgement.
> 
> In years past many of today's dogs would be dropped for their poor line manners. This is an area IMHO that has become too lax.
> 
> Tim



Depends on what "does not heel" looks like. If the dog visited the truck on the way from the holding blind to the mat, probably.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> According to the FT Rule Book
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with Ted. 

Even though the question was about FTs, even in a HT, I think the dog should be dropped for wandering off. Breaking or interfering with the working dog are not the only criteria in a HT. Chapter 3, Section 5 has the similar language as Ted quoted: 


> When coming to the line to be tested, and while on the line, the dog and handler shall assume such locations as may be directed by the Judges.
> 
> Whenever used within the above context, the word “line” is understood to mean the point that a dog will commence its retrieve or the designated area for an honoring dog.


Even if it is not a break or interfering with the working dog, wandering off is not good at all. For those who said it isn't going to get the dog dropped, what is the justification? 

Lack of attention is a minor fault, okay, but at the very least wouldn't you have to give a HT dog a severe downgrade in Trainability for wandering away when it was told to sit (or down) and perhaps Style, for not having enough desire to pay attention to those birds going down? I would think especially in a HT wandering off would be penalized. Do you let your dogs do that when hunting?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

I knew a field champion bitch that was dropped because of an honor. She was sitting and leaned over, and reached under the judges chair and got his lunch. She pulled out his sandwich and ate it. She left him the chips and the fruit. I really never understood the problem. It all happened rather quickly.


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## Mark (Jun 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> If it were a field trial and I were judging
> 
> 1. Drop. Honor is a test of obedience. Dog failed.
> 2. No issue
> 3. Depending on how handler got the dog to down position, no issue.



And this is the dog that has the best marks and had been wonderful all trial and you had penciled it into your blue position on the way back from that really tough long retired in the last series quad. I don't think so!

From blue to bye-bye for this. Maybe you, but not me! Minor fault at most. 


Mark


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

DoubleHaul said:


> I agree with Ted.
> 
> Even though the question was about FTs, even in a HT, I think the dog should be dropped for wandering off. Breaking or interfering with the working dog are not the only criteria in a HT. Chapter 3, Section 5 has the similar language as Ted quoted:
> 
> ...


The OP stipulated HT and not FT.
My response was directed to the previous posts and those who were absolute in dropping the dog, implying that they consider this action a major fault.
Per the HT rules quoted and described scenario, this dog has not committed a major fault in my book.
The dog would likely be marked down for trainability, but not not automatically dropped.
I've never heard anyone ask for justification for not dropping a dog, unless a major fault were overlooked. Usually what's sought is the rationale behind the judges' consensus that a dog be dropped.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

In my book, zero for trainabilty, lack of response to handler. Cannot drop for breaking with no intent to retrieve

/Paul


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

> i knew a field champion bitch that was dropped because of an honor. She was sitting and leaned over, and reached under the judges chair and got his lunch. She pulled out his sandwich and ate it. She left him the chips and the fruit. I really never understood the problem. It all happened rather quickly. :wink:​


good nose!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Mark said:


> And this is the dog that has the best marks and had been wonderful all trial and you had penciled it into your blue position on the way back from that really tough long retired in the last series quad. I don't think so!
> 
> From blue to bye-bye for this. Maybe you, but not me! Minor fault at most.
> 
> ...


LOL. Now you are adding real world into this. No fair!


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> I disagree, given the OP's precise scenario.
> 
> _1. Break. It is generally understood that a break occurs
> when a dog makes a movement, that, in the opinion of the
> ...


Go back and read the rule re honoring. Dogs must remain on honor until released by the judges. It may or may not be a break but if phideaux wanders off before he's excused he gets to stay on the truck. Now if the handler gets him back to the honor box w/o much fuss he's put the decision back in the judges' hands.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> The OP stipulated HT and not FT.
> My response was directed to the previous posts and those who were absolute in dropping the dog, implying that they consider this action a major fault.
> Per the HT rules quoted and described scenario, this dog has not committed a major fault in my book.
> The dog would likely be marked down for trainability, but not not automatically dropped.
> I've never heard anyone ask for justification for not dropping a dog, unless a major fault were overlooked. Usually what's sought is the rationale behind the judges' consensus that a dog be dropped.


Fair enough. It mentioned FT in #2 so I got confused on that part. I would just think that the HT judges would be more severe than FT judges since folks are always talking about the bad line manners of FT dogs and how it would affect the hunting  If the dog was wandering all over creation, I would think that it was a bigger deal in HTs since I would not want them wading through the decoys when hunting when I told them to sit.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Mark said:


> From blue to bye-bye for this. Maybe you, but not me! Minor fault at most.
> 
> 
> Mark


Sounds like a "green ribbon" compromise!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> Corey is correct as the rules below state:
> 
> "Section 6. Honoring. In Senior and Master Tests,
> every dog shall honor in at least one hunting situation
> ...



I mean really,,,, Cant you READ??? Thats what Ted would tell me!!

I didnt mean dog BROK to retrieve,, He broke his "sit" and wandered off before the judge told himhe could..

Just like a test I should have failed when I got up off the bucket when I considered my dog sat there long enough!

I got back to the gallery and was told I got up before being release,, but the judge didnt notice..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ironwood said:


> Honour dog leaves the honour position to go sniff or return to the truck and shows no interest in the action in the field nor interferes with the working dog as it races out to pick up a mark. *The judges have not released the honour dog yet either because the working dog has not reached a pre-agreed distance from the line or the judge wants to see at least one bird returned to hand by the working.* The have given the handler of the working dog his/her number.
> 
> Question #1 Has the honour dog incurred an infraction by moving before being released? If so what penalty?
> 
> ...




Here is the OP's questions!!! I mean even Gooser can read,,, on some days!!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I don't think there was a break. Rather, the dog failed to accomplish the task with which it was assigned - that being to remain in one place until released. Moreover, the listing of faults in the Rule Book is not exclusive. That is, just because something is not specifically listed on the Rule Book does not mean that it is not a fault.

I think marking is of primary importance, but not of sole importance. I would drop. Clearly, others would not. That is the subjective element of judging


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> I mean really,,,, Cant you READ??? Thats what Ted would tell me!!
> 
> I didnt mean dog BROK to retrieve,, He broke his "sit" and wandered off before the judge told himhe could..
> 
> ...


A dog that breaks the sit and creeps on the honor is not automatically dropped....


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Pretty clear whats allowed.
> 
> 
> I dont like piggy dogs that dont "Want"
> ...


I find this humorous, as the only luck I've ever had with getting 2 fire-breathers to semi-relax on honor, is to put them in a down. It's amazing that dogs who can't sit, can down, sure doesn't stop them from seeing the bird, doesn't stop them from breaking either, but it does seem to stop them from prancing around, so now at least we get committed and pretty breaks. If your going to do something, always better to do it clean  One of them the only way I could get him through HRC tests was to actually run him from a down, it never affected his marking, but I could control him better; without the dancing, and trust me a dog can still creep on a down, belly crawler regards .

For the OP, what was the handler doing letting his dog run around & get in trouble before he was released? Seems Like extreme Handler Error to Me; If a handler cannot control his dog on honor, the dog should be dropped "for lack of control" regardless if he's affecting the working dog or not.
We had a similar situation the dog got up wandered and then pee-ed on the judges leg, all while the handler was pleading with him to "heel-sit". No-one questioned why the dog was dropped .


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I find this humorous, as the only luck I've ever had with getting 2 fire-breathers to semi-relax on honor, is to put them in a down. It's amazing that dogs who can't sit, can down, sure doesn't stop them from seeing the bird, doesn't stop them from breaking either, but it does seem to stop them from prancing around, so now at least we get committed and pretty breaks. If your going to do something, always better to do it clean  One of them the only way I could get him through HRC tests was to actually run him from a down, it never affected his marking, but I could control him better; without the dancing, and trust me a dog can still creep on a down, *belly crawler regards *.


This comes in handy when getting through a barbed wire fence and making a retrieve on thin ice...=D


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Labs said:


> A dog that breaks the sit and creeps on the honor is not automatically dropped....[/QUOTThis , breaking sit and creep , is totally different from what the OP described in their post. There the dog got up, left to sniff, and return to the truck.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Forgive me for coming in on your thread from across the sea! 
The original post was a clarification on rules. I can't comment on them ..mainly because I don't know all your rules in a test or trial, and I've never entered one.
Over here we train extensively for the honour',whether that be in the shooting field on a walk up on live game being flushed and shot, or whether that is sitting at the line on a driven day with multiple game being shot. We also have zero tolerance to line manners (noise/movement/shuffle/lie downs/sniffing/marking/hard mouth/breaking/belly crawl ,in fact anything other than SIT! ) and all is conducted under the banner of 'Honouring' !...
For 'myself' I do extensive work in the field working multiple dogs 'non-slip' so they all 'honour' each other ,even the fire breather' that ''wants them all''!...I admire them!...because it is 'all of them'.
A fire breather' over here that 'breaks' or does not honour' has not been 'trained' to honour. Handlers that look for rules that exempt the training over here look for excuses in the training ,not the ability of the dog (imo).A dog that breaks/or does not honour in favour of the truck or some other interest over here,deserves the right to be trained right back on that truck before it is allowed to be in the honourable company again,rather than the argumentation or representation of the ruling (purely from my perception of rules) ..
It's just my two cents from a 'limeys' view, nothing personal or directive in any way.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I like the post above.

I hate to say this, but I suppose we need to define " Honor"

I think it means respect, and to be in the ready if needed.

The posture if lying down, to me doesn't represent respect.
Much like sitting down during the National Anthem.

Honoring ,to me , is a respectful postures gown to the working dog , much like military standing at attention.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And when it happens its a beautiful thing to watch, in my opinion.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I like the post above.
> 
> I hate to say this, but I suppose we need to define " Honor"
> 
> ...


Mike I'm going to disagree with the laying down - you are going to tell a Senior dog that just retrieved who is laying down quietly and honoring the working of the other dog is being disrespectful? I don't think dog's think like we do...I'm sorry but if Flash was here I'd tell him to piss on your leg and eat your samwhich if you told him he couldn't lay down on the honor!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

FOM said:


> Mike I'm going to disagree with the laying down - you are going to tell a Senior dog that just retrieved who is laying down quietly and honoring the working of the other dog is being disrespectful? I don't think dog's think like we do...I'm sorry but if Flash was here I'd tell him to piss on your leg and eat your samwhich if you told him he couldn't lay down on the honor!


It's nothing personal, or even directive any individual dog!
I would expect mine to be 'ready again'!?..not thinking ''the job is done''?..perhaps is a better way of explaining/interpretation?...I also believe dogs don't think like 'us'.
But I do believe that I want one that is ready to do it all over again.
......
Mine lay down in the kennel
But I respect your dog.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

To answer the OP's question. If the honor dog gets up and leaves the area designated by the Judges, it is failing to complete the honoring portion of the test and warrants a zero in trainability. (The dog/handler chose to avoid a designed portion of the test while under judgement.)


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> To answer the OP's question. If the honor dog gets up and leaves the area designated by the *Judges*, it is failing to complete the honoring portion of the test and warrants a zero in trainability. (The dog/handler chose to avoid a designed portion of the test while under *judgement.*)


That's about as simple as you can say it!...If you take out the 'by judges' and 'judgement' and replace with 'handler'?
One could *train* for this, rather than '*rule' *on it? perhaps.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

polmaise said:


> It's nothing personal, or even directive any individual dog!
> I would expect mine to be 'ready again'!?..not thinking ''the job is done''?..perhaps is a better way of explaining/interpretation?...


One of my dogs often lies down on the honor at a Field Trial.

The competitive dogs over here go the the line hundreds (even thousands) of times during their lives. They get so used to honoring for another dog that they know that after the honor the job is done.

You can't blame the dogs for thinking "the job is done"when they have never gotten another retrieve after honoring in their entire lives at a Field Trial...........different game here and not at all related to hunting.

As an aside, when hunting and this same dog is asked to honor while another picks up a bird, he is definitely ready for another retrieve because he has learned that game too.

You cannot compare the two situations.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

Wow, tough judges! I take the view that rules are written often without full fleshing out for every conceivable occurrence within their pervue this might be one reason why judging standards differ both in retriever competitions and in the courts.
If the situation the OP describes occurred before me as a judge I would look beyond the Letter of the rule and look at the Intent of the rules concerning the "Honour". The assumption of those who crafted the rules was that any dog on Honour, if it were to leave the line, might reasonably be expected to be headed in the direction of the marks...this is what many of us experience in training and it is understandable that this would be the common expectation in competition. The intent of the honour rule appears to be a test of a dog's ability to stifle its drive and desire and not retrieve or interfere with the retrieve of birds meant for another, this is just my interpretation only but it will affect how I would call this.

If this occurred in a hunt test, I would score down on trainability and nothing more providing there was no drama or disruption caused by the exiting dog. 
If this occurred in a Field Trial, I would make note and it would weigh in with all other considerations in deciding upon a placement or otherwise.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

labguy said:


> You cannot compare the two situations.


It would appear the 'dog does'? ...Your dog!
Ain't saying it's right, or wrong!...just saying....Mine do the same in competition and field!..because I train for it!....
If you don't?...then that's what you get ?...It's in the 'rules'?.....
But ,,,hey'....I do one heck of alot more hunting than I do competition!....
The dogs are just there for fun


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Mark said:


> And this is the dog that has the best marks and had been wonderful all trial and you had penciled it into your blue position on the way back from that really tough long retired in the last series quad. I don't think so!
> 
> From blue to bye-bye for this. Maybe you, but not me! Minor fault at most.
> 
> ...



What about white to bye ? I understand this is some of Ted's judging subjectivity but he has said the dog left the designated spot for the honor and like Swampcollie not completed the honor, thus warrants a drop...I agree...In the HT game you can talk to the dog so there is absolutely no reason to wander off...In the Sr you could be credited with a "control break" and thus receive a final score, judges discretion...Mater , no controlled breaks ...Steve S


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I like the post above.
> 
> I hate to say this, but I suppose we need to define " Honor"
> 
> ...


I disagree 100%. Generally, a dog that lies down was instructed. It is more submissive in nature than a sit. Comparing it to a human and the NA is, well, goofy.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

kjrice said:


> Breaking is a mandatory elimination under the “STANDARD’’ on page 56, rule 9. Rule 14, page 57, addresses dogs that are not on the line and under judgement but interfere. Those that might argue how great the dog was doing or it didn't interfere are not following the "STANDARD." *Whether the dog went forward or took a happy stroll to the gallery, IMO, it is still breaking*. In addition, I agree with Ted that the dog did not satisfactorily complete a required task; it didn't follow the fundamentals and spirit of honoring.


In order to call it a break, I thought the language stipulated something about "in an attempt to retrieve the bird".

JS


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

Chapter 3 
Section 19. Failure to Obey. Judges shall have the
power to turn out of a test any dog which does not obey
its handler and any handler who interferes willfully with another handler or his dog.

Guidelines for the Hunting Test
Regulations for Retrievers
Chapter 3, Section 1, of the Regulations states:
“The purpose of a Hunting Test for Retrievers is to
test the merits of, and evaluate the abilities of Retrievers
in the field in order to determine their suitability and
ability as hunting companions. Hunting Tests must, therefore,
simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a
true hunting situation.”

You guys are nuts... maybe its just me? I have limited experience in Trials so I will stick to the Hunt Test aspect of the questions. Failure to Obey (Chaper 3 section 19) are grounds in and of itself to be dropped. Then there are the Guidlines for Retrievers and Hunting Test that states we are testing and evaluating the merits of the dog as a hunting companion.

A couple things here, first would I want to hunt with that dog. Very simply "NO" he failed the evaluation and merits of a hunting companion. 2nd he failed to obey severly. 3rd getting him under control is going to interfere with either the working dog, the handler, the judges or all of the above which again is grounds for being dropped.... then there is that don't disturb too much cover thing (I know it is talked about in the retrieving section of the rules, but should pertain to the entirty of the test)

I am in agreement with Ted 100% dog is dropped. Not only do the rules back me on it, but there is not a chance in hell I would want to hunt with that dog if he cant sit still and obey, and ultimately that is what we are testing and evaluating, isn't it?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

labguy said:


> One of my dogs often lies down on the honor at a Field Trial.
> 
> The competitive dogs over here go the the line hundreds (even thousands) of times during their lives. They get so used to honoring for another dog that they know that after the honor the job is done.
> 
> ...


Yep. By the time a field trial dog is in the middle of his all age career, he has run a set of mark, then honorored thousands of times. It doesn't matter how much drive he has, he's been we'll trained to never-ever think about going again. He has also been trained to remain in the honor position until his handler heels him of line and back behind the judges.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

JS said:


> In order to call it a break, I thought the language stipulated something about "in an attempt to retrieve the bird".
> 
> JS


You don't have to break in order to be dropped for failing to honor. I'm pretty sure no judge would like dropping a dog that left th honor with no intent to retrieve, and most would quickly release the honor dog as soon as the working dog was sent, but in the extreme example of an honor dog just up and leaving while the birds are going down, and his handler is standing there flat footed, what could a judge do other than drop him?


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## Mark AB (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm new to the hunt test game, but if my dog wandered off I'd expect to be heading home. My issue is the other end of the spectrum, as they sit there like a coiled trip wire and my heart in my throat quietly wispiring in my most authoritative voice i can muster siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

1-E Honoring in gun dog, all-age, limited gun dog, and limited all-age stakes. A dog encountering its bracemate on point must honor. Failure of a dog to honor when it sees its bracemate on point must be severely penalized, and the intentional avoidance by a dog or a handler of an honoring situation must also be severely penalized. (AKC Pointer FT Rules)

"Intentional avoidance"
I like that term. A good way to describe the OP situation. A dog laying down = avoidance? Still open to debate.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> *You don't have to break in order to be dropped for failing to honor*. I'm pretty sure no judge would like dropping a dog that left th honor with no intent to retrieve, and most would quickly release the honor dog as soon as the working dog was sent, but in the extreme example of an honor dog just up and leaving while the birds are going down, and his handler is standing there flat footed, what could a judge do other than drop him?


I understand that. I was only addressing the part of post #45 (I bolded) that suggested the language on breaking may be relevant.

JS


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I think the reason we have so much disagreement on whether the dog in question should/would be dropped is because we may all be imagining different things when we read the description written by the OP. Hopefully if we all saw it there would be much more agreement.

I am not a judge so I'll just say as a HT handler in either AKC or HRC I would expect my dog to be dropped. It would not matter to me what the judges justification was. I agree it was not a "Break." Dropping the dog could easily come under the trainability heading. If the dog wanders away when he is supposed to be sitting he is out of control.

I disagree with Gooser on the laying down issue. I often tell my dog to lay down on honor. He can always see the marks and he is always attentive to the action. I started doing this when my old dog once sat on the honor for a long, long time while waiting on a re-bird or the handling of some mechanical issue. It was an insanely long time but I was afraid if I left the area of the line and then returned he might really think he was about to retrieve again (like a new series). He eventually decided nothing was happening and laid down. After that I used it as a way to communicate to him that his job was done. Further I reasoned that it takes a little more effort to break from a down position than from a sitting one.

As for the RESPECT factor, I completely agree that the handler/dog duo on honor should be respectful of the working dog. They should be still and quiet and present no distractions, but the main respect I'm looking for on honor (or any other situation) is for my dog to respect ME and if I told him to lay down then compliance equals respect to me and could in no way interfere with the working dog.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

So I guess we're taking to different ideas of the honor dog down positions? The one people don't like where the dog itself chooses to lay down, basically ignoring the birds (showing indifference). and the one where the handler tells him to down, and the dog obeys ( but still watches the birds).

I can't say I've seen many of the first one, seems the majority of dogs are trained to down, but especially if there's a live flyer, they are still gonna watch. Of course there's those experienced dogs that know they aren't gonna retrieve, know that they're throwing dead birds, which land in the same place and the honor becomes tedium and down a habit. Still I'd hazard to guess that those older dogs if sent from the honor position, would go out and get those birds, even if they didn't appear to mark them, because heck they are dead and the dog already knows where they are going. Might even do a better job the second time, "maybe we can all run from the honor and improve our scores" . 

Now to me, it seems like letting the honor dog retrieve something, every once in awhile, would add a lot of different possibilities on the judging of two dogs control in a test, perhaps get rid of the old-hat retrieve marks then honor scenario. However I believe if a judge put such in a test, it would be time consuming, too confusing to many handlers (handlers are impossible to train) and raise the roof on whining and complaints. Most people like he standard ole-hat,"snore"; most of the time interesting judges don't get invited back  that means an experienced dog will get bored on honor (regardless whether he's sitting or laying down). Heck I get bored on honor, I don't watch dead-birds, and given a mat, I would probably lay down and take a nap, which is why we need layout blinds in Master .


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> And this is the dog that has the best marks and had been wonderful all trial and you had penciled it into your blue position on the way back from that really tough long retired in the last series quad. I don't think so!
> 
> From blue to bye-bye for this. Maybe you, but not me! Minor fault at most.


Thanks for bringing up the subject of reality. My dog,,later in life started to get up and wonder around in my vicinity,, or she would roll over on her back ,,wriggle and kick around with her back feet which at one event was only 4 or 5 feet behind the working dog ,,just wiggling around. she did this at 8 or 10 events and was never dropped for it.

I suppose judging can be a bit subjective

Pete


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## Mark (Jun 13, 2003)

kjrice said:


> Even if there is disagreement on the semantics of a break, the dog exhibited a complete loss of control. Per page 54, (2) - (2) Control is closely allied to the dog’s response to direction, but it also includes obedience at all times.Control also includes “line-manners,’’ walking tractably “at heel,’’ assuming and staying in any designated position on-line, as well as remaining quietly on-line. So whether you call it a break or out-of-control, in this case, it is a serious fault and justifies elimination.





Pete said:


> Thanks for bringing up the subject of reality. My dog,,later in life started to get up and wonder around in my vicinity,, or she would roll over on her back ,,wriggle and kick around with her back feet which at one event was only 4 or 5 feet behind the working dog ,,just wiggling around. she did this at 8 or 10 events and was never dropped for it.
> 
> I suppose judging can be a bit subjective
> 
> Pete


I remain of my original opinion. If the dog breaks makes a move to retrieve or interferes with the working dog no problem he gets dropped. That dog that rolls over to scratch his back, get a drink from the water bowl or the paddle pool that is at the line for him, really isn't a big deal for me. I have already seen what I like in the dog in the field and the fact that the dog has no intention of stealing the working dogs bird has passed the honor test for me. A Minor fault for me and one that I would give very little significance to in assessing placements at the end of the day and in my mind certainly not an eliminating fault. Normally it is the savvy old dogs with character, who know the game that are involved, and those are the ones I like to watch. Dogs that have exhibited far worse (in my eyes) behavior out of control on the way to the line and while the birds are going down rarely get dropped and I would personally look much harder at this area. Talking FT here. HT I have no opinion of the severity of the infraction. MARK


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Is a dog with that low a level of interest in retrieving worth of anything BUT getting dropped?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Is a dog with that low a level of interest in retrieving worth of anything BUT getting dropped?


As you know ,dogs are situational ...they learn over time to have certain expectations in a given situation...It isn't a lack of desire in some but an expectation of never going on another retrieve once put in the honor box...That is not to say the dog can act anyway they choose when there...Steve S


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTE Is Is a dog with that low a level of interest in retrieving worth of anything BUT getting dropped?][/QUOTE]

Darrin,,You must be pulling my leg.

She has enough drive for 10 dogs with still plenty to go around. Its more like she became that savvy,,, And I would hunt with that dog any day and still do,,and regrettably,this will be her last season. (. But she left me with 2 dogs of with equal go power,,,just they haven't developed the savvy yet.
Pete


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> Is a dog with that low a level of interest in retrieving worth of anything BUT getting dropped?


I'm very surprised at a comment like this coming from you Darrin. Maybe you want to re-think this.

There are a number of very successful, talented and driven retrievers running field trials that essential ignore what's going on when they are honoring.

These are seasoned veterens who have simply learned after hundreds of times to the line that there are no more retiieves coming. 

Situational learning 101. They simply know that the job is done.......................why would you fault a dog for this level of intelligence in understanding the game??????


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> As you know ,dogs are situational ...they learn over time to have certain expectations in a given situation...It isn't a lack of desire in some but an expectation of never going on another retrieve once put in the honor box...That is not to say the dog can act anyway they choose when there...Steve S


Is that a learned behaviour through repetition or an honour?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Is that a learned behaviour through repetition or an honour?


Through repetition....The whole sequence of events is such a production in a NORMAL field trial over here they have it figured out from start to finish....There are some dogs that want the next bird ( high prey drive ) no matter what ...but others have learned it isn't going to happen...Some have paid too great a price for the attempt and learned the hard way....Steve S


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> Some have paid too great a price for the attempt and learned the hard way....Steve S


That's what I thought!
.....


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

polmaise said:


> That's what I thought!
> .....


.
Repetition maybe, reprecussion more certain.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

labguy said:


> I'm very surprised at a comment like this coming from you Darrin. Maybe you want to re-think this.
> 
> There are a number of very successful, talented and driven retrievers running field trials that essential ignore what's going on when they are honoring.
> 
> ...


It was a real question as opposed to a rhetorical one. I wouldn't fault it as long as it didn't interfere with the working dog. I was really curious since I've never seen it except in dogs that really weren't interested in the first place but muddled through the work (which I really grind my teeth over passing). Sorry if accidentally offensive.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> It was a real question as opposed to a rhetorical one. I wouldn't fault it as long as it didn't interfere with the working dog. I was really curious since I've never seen it except in dogs that really weren't interested in the first place but muddled through the work (which I really grind my teeth over passing). Sorry if accidentally offensive.


I've judged all age stakes for a number of years... In the old days ran HTs and judged them too (NAHRA). I've seen some of the best dogs around show no interest at all in what was going on in the field during their turn at honor. It's because they have learned the routine... We almost always do it after they pick up their birds... So the dog knows its done. The older savvy dogs like Pete said, just yawn. I had one that was an AFC that was the same way. As soon as the birds hit the ground and the working dog got his number (or should have), my old dog would excuse himself and head for the truck. The judges generally were laughing. 

I have never run HRC or AKC HTs and don't profess to know the rules there... But in my experience... Why are we even talking about this? Reminds me of the former NBA player Allen Iverson and his famous "practice" rant.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Hello Guys,
I must interject and ask for an opinion from all ends of our spectrum. I guess that would mean both MooseGooser and Ted and everyone in-between.
And I don't want this to be glazed over as a "Bora Promoting NAHRA again" thing as I know it is done and legal in all of the other venues afore mentioned.
The Cold Honor!
a few summers back (well maybe more than a few, I am thinking of Timber doodle in NH) at the NAHRA Field tests. A senior setup that was in vogue that summer was. Working dog comes to line. Another dog and handler are already in front of the judges. You sit in your assigned spot at the end. Like that age old hunt test scenario. You are late and the others started without you. 
So you walk up and sit, 
Other dog and handler and judges are hunting and are already "set up" 
Marks go down. 
Other dog picks them up!!!
Then leaves with all those birds and its handler!!!
Then you run a blind and move over to the front position, if you could do a blind retrieve after that.
Scenario, remember NAHRA has to have a hunting scenario given, is that the other dog couldn't run blind retrieves so could you pick up that last one?
And if you did it
Another dog and handler walked up to watch you get your marks.
Dogs and handlers set in the routine as you all so many are stating above would come unglued!
And the judges got a few test requirements over with in one swell foop.
So, why don't you guys mix it up more often? 
Ted, have you ever tossed in a cold honor in a trial? 
MooseGooser, have you seen this in your HRC days?
it is a fun set up.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ran one this year

/Paul


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> Hello Guys,
> I must interject and ask for an opinion from all ends of our spectrum. I guess that would mean both MooseGooser and Ted and everyone in-between.
> And I don't want this to be glazed over as a "Bora Promoting NAHRA again" thing as I know it is done and legal in all of the other venues afore mentioned.
> The Cold Honor!
> ...


Ken, well trained dogs don't come unglued on cold honors... At least the few that I have been associated with. It's no different than a poison bird scenario except that those marks are probably far enough out of the way to not be a bother. And have been picked up anyway... How many of us have never let a dog honor in training and watch another dog work?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ken

Havent run that exact test you explained but something similar in HRC.

My experience in HRC has seen the Honor dog and Handler very much a part of the working dogs test.

Gooser


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ironwood said:


> Honour dog leaves the honour position to go sniff or return to the truck and shows no interest in the action in the field nor interferes with the working dog as it races out to pick up a mark. The judges have not released the honour dog yet either because the working dog has not reached a pre-agreed distance from the line or the judge wants to see at least one bird returned to hand by the working dog. The judges have given the handler of the working dog his/her number.
> 
> Question #1 Has the honour dog incurred an infraction by moving before being released? If so what penalty?
> 
> ...


I haven't read the other posts, but what does Honor mean to you and did you ask the judges the same? I had a senior dog who understand what I meant by no bird and decided to roll on her back with legs kicking in her joy, but never left the plain...The judge release the dog and remark "She is sure enjoying her space" and passed...When in doubt, ask.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

huntinman said:


> I've judged all age stakes for a number of years... In the old days ran HTs and judged them too (NAHRA). I've seen some of the best dogs around show no interest at all in what was going on in the field during their turn at honor. It's because they have learned the routine... We almost always do it after they pick up their birds... So the dog knows its done. The older savvy dogs like Pete said, just yawn. I had one that was an AFC that was the same way. As soon as the birds hit the ground and the working dog got his number (or should have), my old dog would excuse himself and head for the truck. The judges generally were laughing.
> 
> I have never run HRC or AKC HTs and don't profess to know the rules there... But in my experience... Why are we even talking about this? Reminds me of the former NBA player Allen Iverson and his famous "practice" rant.


Thanks Bill (and others). I had to really think about this. I've judged a couple of AKC MH tests thus far and been to several dozen, along with probably 2-3 dozen FT's. I couldn't figure out why I hadn't noticed this phenomena. Then it hit me... Nothing to notice.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

FT breeding, consequencely where all Labrador breeding starts is breeding for the "b" type dog that is biddable and smart enough to understand the game. Heck honors are often waived because the FT dogs know the drill. Dogs with FC AFC i front of their name rarely/never break on honor.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> The OP stipulated HT and not FT.
> My response was directed to the previous posts and those who were absolute in dropping the dog, implying that they consider this action a major fault.
> Per the HT rules quoted and described scenario, this dog has not committed a major fault in my book.
> The dog would likely be marked down for trainability, but not not automatically dropped.
> I've never heard anyone ask for justification for not dropping a dog, unless a major fault were overlooked. Usually what's sought is the rationale behind the judges' consensus that a dog be dropped.


I fail to see where HT is specified.

John


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

I misread the OP's scenario and thought the dog took off before the marks but that was not the case. As a judge, I would not agree to have a dog sit there until a bird was delivered to hand. Once the working dog is sent, I would release the honor dog. IMO, the scenario is trying to trick a dog which makes the honor more important than the marks. I guess in that case, that is what the two judges wanted so you should obey. They can toss you or ding for a lack of control.

Ran a cold honor a few years back and didn't like it. I thought it was too mechanical and wasted precious time. I believe the scenario made me play circus music in my head.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

John Gassner said:


> I fail to see where HT is specified.
> 
> John


Post #1 has been edited. See post #26 which contains the original post. Pretty uncool to change it in the middle of a discussion.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Post #1 has been edited. See post #26 which contains the original post. Pretty uncool to change it in the middle of a discussion.


In that same OP that is quoted in post 26, the OP in question #2 mentions FT's.


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## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

My dog lies down. My dog also gets out of the truck off lead and stays off whether hunting, at hunt tests or field trials. Hunt tests should mimic just that... testing a dogs hunting ability in a hunting environment and atmosphere. A dog that is at a master or even a senior level that can not obey the simple commands of sit, down, heel, leave (no-bird)... IMO are not senior or master level "hunting dogs." Depending on what and where one hunts, a dog may hunt primarily from a down position. Nearly all our duck and goose hunts are hunted with dogs remotely set back off the firing line in mut-huts in a down position. Rarely do we hunt with the dog sitting or standing beside us. It's also my opinion that cripples should be used, 5 and 6 bird down volleys with 2 working dogs should be used, and area blinds (blinds in a "general vicinity" that require a hunt them up command) should be used in a master level hunt test to recreate a more realistic hunting scenario. Too much of what is seen at hunt tests are concepts that rarely happen and are created by guys that don't hunt or hunt twice a year. And yet, they are judging Master Hunt Tests??? What does happen in a hunting situation is a volley comes in, the caller calls the shot, everyone fires in a flurry, a few birds fall 20-30 yards out, one bird falls 50-60 yards out and the last shot sends out a sailor that glides 125+ yards. On occasion you get a really long glider or you have one that drops behind the blind that's impossible to mark yourself, but you know the general vicinity of where the bird landed. That's a hunting scenario. That's what should be incorporated into a "Hunt Test," especially one at a "Master Level." What is done at hunt test is a concept or field test for clear/visible, separately timed _(three individual marks spaced out 3-5 seconds apart)_ marking set-ups and precision blind retrieves. Field Trials are a different game, they don't pretend to be something they are not. But the OP was in regards to Hunt Tests. How is it that some are disagreeing on honoring & obedience as a fault for a hunt test while others are discounting a working dog in a down position. OBEDIENCE is and should be the first thing... an absolute must thing that a hunting dog possessives. True hunting work can't be effectively done without it! Why do people (judges and participants) in the hunt test world _(with the exception of the Grand)_ place such a low priority on obedience. The OP is not an infraction on honoring, but lack of trainability/obedience. Lying down, (while working and honoring) as long as the dog can see the marks is something that a master level dog should be able to and be required to do. Talking to your dog in a "quiet, controlled voice" that does not interfere with the "hunting scenario" should be and is allowed. And further, a dog that can't walk to and from the truck without being constrained, doesn't have enough obedience to be in the blind with 6 men and guns.


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