# Top Sires With Intact ACLs



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Lab breeders have the tools to reduce or eliminate the problems with hips, eyes, elbows, CNM and EIC. Now it seems like the major loss of training and competing time is lost to ACLs. Which top living Labrador sires haven't experienced torn ACLs? The list is probably pretty short and getting shorter, but I hope I'm wrong. How about the dead sires that still have semen available?

We can start the list with NAFTCH-FC-AFC He's Czar Nicholas. Nick competed until he was 10 years old and his only injury occurred when someone backed a car over him when he was staked out. He still won the Canadian National Amateur after that happened.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Lab breeders have the tools to reduce or eliminate the problems with hips, eyes, elbows, CNM and EIC. Now it seems like the major loss of training and competing time is lost to ACLs. Which top living Labrador sires haven't experienced torn ACLs?
> 
> .....


I would think that would be sorta like looking for the dog who hasn't stepped in a big enough hole yet. 

JS


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Lab breeders have the tools to reduce or eliminate the problems with hips, eyes, elbows, CNM and EIC. Now it seems like the major loss of training and competing time is lost to ACLs. Which top living Labrador sires haven't experienced torn ACLs? The list is probably pretty short and getting shorter, but I hope I'm wrong. How about the dead sires that still have semen available?
> 
> ...





JS said:


> I would think that would be sorta like looking for the dog who hasn't stepped in a big enough hole yet.
> 
> JS



Isn't it more likely the truth is somewhere in between?

If breeders are reasonable about the realities of injury from hazards as well as injury from being predisposed to it, why WOULDN'T a breeder be looking for this information? If I were buying a puppy, I would be looking at this as one part of the equation if at all possible.


----------



## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

FC Low Country Drake has quite a few miles on him and both knees are still good. If you look at his conformation, you'll see quite a bit of set to his hocks and pretty good angulation in his knees. Does this contribute to his appearent soundness? I think so. In fact, it was one of many factors that I considered before I used him. FWIW, he passed that angulation to all the pups in my litter. We'll see if they all stay sound into old age.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

luvalab said:


> Isn't it more likely the truth is somewhere in between?


Obviously, I would agree that a sound structure is important to health and longevity, but I'm just saying, with the training regimen required to campaign a dog today, any one of them is one misstep away from a career ending injury.

JS


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

At one time it was thought that Tibial Plateau Angle was the key to avoiding ACL injury. However, every study done, shows no relationship.
I am pretty sure that all of the studies that have been done so far, give no indication that propensity for ACL injury is inherited.

It is an unpredictable injury, it can't be connected to an inherited trait like HD.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I too look at angulation, but any hard going dog is at risk for acl, especially larger dogs.


----------



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I too look at angulation, but any hard going dog is at risk for acl, especially larger dogs.


Straight knees are more likely to blow. Simple mechanics. Our tests and training have gotten so extreme that a poor dogs body will show it's faults with time. Have the knees gotten straighter or has the training become so body pounding that they can't hold up. Or is it both?

Yes ACL's and other lameness come from accidents. One of my bitches blew an ACL this spring and her angles are very good. But you can see a frequency of knee problems in litter mates and cousins in certain pedigrees.

FWIW

Angie


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I agree Angie-chances are some of the parents are pretty straight in the rear. How many people pay attention to the angulation on the sires and dams before matching them up to breed? However, we are able to train harder and earlier now with the new e-collars than from twenty years ago, and the pounding takes a tol on the joints. There are a few things going on. I've seen some well bred pups that are pretty straight.


----------



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I have often wondered if folks that run their dogs hard on a near daily basis (hard as in, train for FT every day) ever consider doing weight pull training, or roading, at the very least...here are a couple of pictures that show how weight pulling could benefit the dog by strengthening the muscles in a low impact sort of way....

http://img156.imageshack.us/i/img1487s.jpg/

http://img84.imageshack.us/i/weighttraindogmush.jpg/

obviously you don't have to train your dog to compete, but even 10 minutes a day with moderate resistance would probably be benificial...

Juli


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Angie B said:


> But you can see a frequency of knee problems in litter mates and cousins in certain pedigrees. Angie


That is why I asked about the sires that have intact ACLs rather than expose those that don't. Like CNM and EIC listings, if they aren't on the list, we have to assume they are carriers or affected.


----------



## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

I would also guess that ACL injuries are due to improper warming up before training. I trained with a pro last winter and all of his dogs have a warm up exercise when they get out of the truck that is recommended by an ortho surgeon. 

How many of us just get dogs out of the truck run them and them put them back on the truck?


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Ken Archer said:


> That is why I asked about the sires that have intact ACLs rather than expose those that don't. Like CNM and EIC listings, if they aren't on the list, we have to assume they are carriers or affected.


EIC and CNM are autosomal recessive _TRAITS_.

ACL and CCL rupture are injuries that have _NOT_ been scientifically linked to any trait. Everything that has been blamed so far (including conformation structure) has been shown by peer reviewed studies, to be random and not associated with ACL/CCL injury.

You are comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Not only is warm up very important, but the cooling down (walking out) is also.


----------



## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

Certainly knee issues are not Autosomal traits... no big suprise there, but the truth is most performance traits are Quantitative Polygenic traist that have a big environmental component. That doesn't me you cannot select for it


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Certainly knee issues are not Autosomal traits... no big suprise there, but the truth is most performance traits are Quantitative Polygenic traist that have a big environmental component. That doesn't me you cannot select for it


ACL/CCL injury certainly could be reduced if we could find a polygenic trait associated with it. _ BUT NOBODY HAS SO FAR!_

Hip Dysplasia, (poorly developed hip sockets) is definitely associated with arthritic changes in the hip structure of canines. Hip Dysplasia is a polygenic trait. Arthritic changes are not polygenic traits.


----------



## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

copterdoc said:


> ACL and CCL rupture are injuries that have _NOT_ been scientifically linked to any trait. Everything that has been blamed so far (including conformation structure) has been shown by peer reviewed studies, to be random and not associated with ACL/CCL injury.
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges.


Where might one obtain copies these peer review studies or access them on line?

I am new to Labs so am trying to educate myself as respects health issues.



Ken Archer said:


> That is why I asked about the sires that have intact ACLs rather than expose those that don't. Like CNM and EIC listings, if they aren't on the list, we have to assume they are carriers or affected.


There has to be more than the two mentioned thus far?


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> EIC and CNM are autosomal recessive _TRAITS_. ACL and CCL rupture are injuries that have _NOT_ been scientifically linked to any trait. Everything that has been blamed so far (including conformation structure) has been shown by peer reviewed studies, to be random and not associated with ACL/CCL injury. You are comparing apples to oranges.


You missed the point of my analogy. To simplify, if you make a list of dogs that have not suffered a torn ACL, then we can assume that any dog not on the list has torn an ACL. It doesn't matter if torn ACLs turn out to be autosomal recessive or polygentic. At this point no one knows so the only logical way to reduce the incidence of torn ACLs is to breed only those dogs that haven't experienced an ACL injury. As Angie posted earlier, there are some lines that have experienced ACL injuries on one or both knees and from generation to generation. It is too much of a coincidence to ignore. I am sure that there are some national caliber competitors that have survived extensive training and competition without an ACL tear. So far only two dogs have been mentioned. Is that indicitive of how severe the problem is in Labs?


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> At one time it was thought that Tibial Plateau Angle was the key to avoiding ACL injury. However, every study done, shows no relationship.


could you please provide us with the specifics of those "studies"


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Jim Pickering said:


> Where might one obtain copies these peer review studies or access them on line?


Google is a good place to start.


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

EdA said:


> could you please provide us with the specifics of those "studies"


Sorry to be off topic, but I love when you post Ed, that girl in your avatar is something else!!!


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

EdA said:


> could you please provide us with the specifics of those "studies"


I no longer have that information. I do remember that none of the "studies" provided conclusive findings of any association between high TPA and ACL or CCL injury.

I am always willing to learn, so if you are aware of any evidence that contradicts what I found, I would love to hear it.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> Sorry to be off topic, but I love when you post Ed, that girl in your avatar is something else!!!


Although she is an international athlete, I don't believe she has ever suffered an ACL tear. Guess we should add her to the list. ;-)


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Ken Archer said:


> Although she is an international athlete, I don't believe she has ever suffered an ACL tear. Guess we should add her to the list. ;-)


you mean the breeding list right???


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> you mean the breeding list right???


She ought to at least be on the practice squad.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> Google is a good place to start.


so you have no specific personal knowledge of these scientific studies other than Google?

I am confused as you spoke very authoritatively about this information

Such a study would require the measurement of the slope of the tibial plateau on hundreds of dogs and following those dogs throughout their lives and assessing the incidence of CCL injuries and their relation to the slope of the tibial plateau.

I am certain that no such study has been done, if I am wrong please provide the details of that study.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

EdA said:


> I am certain that no such study has been done, if I am wrong please provide the details of that study.


It will take me a few days, but I will try.


----------



## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

Abstract
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
January 1, 2006, Vol. 228, No. 1, Pages 61-64 
doi: 10.2460/javma.228.1.61



Inheritance of rupture of the cranial cruciate ligament in Newfoundlands

Vicki L. Wilke DVM, DACVS Michael G. Conzemius DVM, PhD, DACVS Brian P. Kinghorn PhD Paula E. Macrossan PhD Weiguo Cai * Max F. Rothschild PhD 
Department of Animal Sciences, Center for Integrated Animal Genomics, Iowa State University, Ames, IA 50011-1250 (Wilke, Cai, Rothschild); Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Iowa State University, Ames, IA 50011-1250 (Wilke, Conzemius); Department of Animal Sciences, University of New England, Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia (Kinghorn, Macrossan)
Address correspondence to Dr. Wilke.
Supported by the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation; Orthopedic Research Laboratory, College of Veterinary Medicine, Iowa State University; Department of Animal Science, Iowa State University; Special Research Initiation Grant, Iowa Agriculture and Home Economics Experiment Station; and Hatch and State of Iowa funds.

Presented at the 31st Veterinary Orthopedic Society Annual Conference, Big Sky, Mont, February 2004, and at the 14th American College of Veterinary Surgeons Symposium, Denver, October 2004.

The authors thank Drs. John Garbe and Yang Da for assistance with the pedigree.

Objective—To determine prevalence, level of inbreeding, heritability, and mode of inheritance for rupture of the cranial cruciate ligament (RCCL) in Newfoundlands.

Design—Retrospective and recruitment study.

Animals—574 client-owned Newfoundlands.

Procedure—Medical records from January 1, 1996, to December 31, 2002, were evaluated for prevalence of RCCL. A pedigree was constructed by use of recruited Newfoundlands with RCCL status based on results of veterinary examination; level of inbreeding, heritability, and mode of inheritance were calculated.

Results—Hospital prevalence for RCCL was 22%; dogs in the pedigree from the recruitment study had a mean level of inbreeding of 1.19 × 10−4, heritability of 0.27, and a possible recessive mode of inheritance with 51% penetrance for RCCL.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Identification of a genetic basis for RCCL in Newfoundlands provided evidence that investigators can now focus on developing methods to identify carriers to reduce the prevalence of RCCL.


I'm sure similar data could be found for other breeds like labs.


----------



## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> ACL/CCL injury certainly could be reduced if we could find a polygenic trait associated with it. _ BUT NOBODY HAS SO FAR!_
> 
> Hip Dysplasia, (poorly developed hip sockets) is definitely associated with arthritic changes in the hip structure of canines. Hip Dysplasia is a polygenic trait. Arthritic changes are not polygenic traits.


Yes they can be.

smf


----------



## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

Twin Research and Human Genetics 


Print ISSN: 1832-4274 
Volume: 5 | Issue: 2 
Cover date: April 2002 
Page(s): 98-106 



Abstract 


In order to investigate the genetic and environmental antecedents of osteoarthritis (OA), self-report measures of joint pain, stiffness and swelling were obtained from a popula-tion-based sample of 1242 twin pairs over 50 years of age. In order to provide validation for these self-report measures, a subsample of 118 twin pairs were examined according to the American College of Rheumatology clinical and radiographic criteria for the classification of osteoarthritis. A variety of statistical methods were employed to identify the model derived from self-report variables which would provide optimal prediction of these standardised assessments, and structural equation modelling was used to determine the relative influences of genetic and environmental influences on the development of osteoarthritis. Significant genetic effects were found to contribute to osteoarthritis of the hands, hips and knees in women, with heritability estimates ranging from 30–46% depending on the site. In addition, the additive genetic effects contributing to osteoarthritis in various parts of the body were confirmed to be the same. Statistically significant familial aggregation of osteoarthritis in men was also observed, but it was not possible to determine whether this was due to genetic or shared environmental effects.

Author(s): Katherine M. Kirk 1, | Nicholas Bellamy 2, | Louise E. O'Gorman 3, | Petra M. Kuhnert 4, | Alex Klestov 5, | Ken Muirden 6, | Paul Tesar 7, | Duncan Walker 8, | Nicholas G. Martin 9 *


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Abstract
> Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
> January 1, 2006, Vol. 228, No. 1, Pages 61-64
> doi: 10.2460/javma.228.1.61
> ...


I do not read much scientific literature. Does this say what I think it says?


----------



## scott furbeck (May 28, 2008)

I read it as (in this study of over 500 dogs... another population may be different). 27% genetic and 73% environmental or interaction terms. That's a pretty common number for a quantitative trait. Grain yield in Corn (what I do for a living - corn genetics) is a little less than that.

they think there is some recessive gene action but are not sure. Lots of interactions


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I read it as (in this study of over 500 dogs... another population may be different). 27% genetic and 73% environmental or interaction terms. That's a pretty common number for a quantitative trait. Grain yield in Corn (what I do for a living - corn genetics) is a little less than that.
> 
> they think there is some recessive gene action but are not sure. Lots of interactions


Gotcha. Very interesting.


----------



## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

University of Minnesota is conducting a study on the heritability of ACL injury. Third study down. 

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/cic/current/sasurgery/home.html


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

EdA said:


> ...Such a study would require the measurement of the slope of the tibial plateau on hundreds of dogs and following those dogs throughout their lives and assessing the incidence of CCL injuries and their relation to the slope of the tibial plateau.
> 
> I am certain that no such study has been done, if I am wrong please provide the details of that study.


Here is one of the studies I found when I was searching before. 
http://www.tierklinik-reif.de/pdf/C... Deficient Stifles of Labrador Retrievers.pdf

There was another, more in depth one, but I can't seem to find it. I think I might have, but the link is broken, so I can't open it. I will keep looking.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I also downloaded another study, published in the JAVMA Vol 232 #6 15 Mar 2008. The article refers to the Reif/Probst study linked in my above post. However the PDF file, is too large to attach to my post.


----------



## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> That is why I asked about the sires that have intact ACLs rather than expose those that don't. Like CNM and EIC listings, if they aren't on the list, we have to assume they are carriers or affected.


If they are not on what list? The list that is developed on RTF? I'm sorry but all of the RTF members do not know everything about every stud out there so I don't know how you can assume that the list is complete and only affected studs are not on the said list.

Additionally, if the assumption is that this trait might be inherited, how do you reconcile those studs who do not have the problem with perhaps their littermates that do have the problems? Can one assume that a dog with no problems will not produce pups with the problem? Or maybe it might the combination of both the female and the sire that produced pups that might have injuries? 

Or could it just be the way the dog performs? Perhaps the fact that a dog might be a high roller with no regard for it's own safety and that trait has a significant influence on injuries?

And how about those famous dogs that have had injuries and then are used for breeding? Not all of their offspring also have had the injury...so is this another way to eliminate talented animals from the breeding pool without scientific evidence that the trait is inherited?

Just some things to think about when you are trying to produce a "white list"...


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

So back to the original question....

John Lash


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Did you ever notice that for every successful man there is a woman telling him he can't do it. Geez!!


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I do think you can often find a familial pattern if you do some digging. ACL injuries are one thing I consider in a prospective sire along with other things that can be tested for. With Chesapeakes there's no such thing as the perfect dog, so you have to pick your poison. You do have to dig though, since ACL injury information usually isn't forthcoming. And yes I would rule out a sire that had ACL surgery over one that hadn't, all other things being equal. 

But, I would never insist all breeders take ACLs into consideration. There are far too many CBRs being bred that don't like ducks, are untrainable, moronic and hyper BUT they have all their health clearances and then some. Many of them even win in the show ring and/or have their Rally Novice or CGC titles too.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Am I to assume that, after 2300 hits and 39 posts, there are only two top Labrador sires that haven't had ACL or CCL surgeries? Surely there are more worthy dogs out there that haven't been subjected to the knife.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

What's your definition of "top"? Natl titled, Natl finisher, produced more than X number of FC, FC or AFC over the age of X, an FC or AFC titled dog, or a MH? Not a lover of the words top and quality because that's a typical newspaper description.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

While I look for sound structure, I also need to know more about why the dog is sound or not sound. A well put together dog that works hard can screw up an ACL, and a post legged dog that never leaves the couch may not. I'd want more info before crossing an otherwise great dog with good angles off my "breed to" list. An ACL tear isn't an automatic write-off to me...I want the rest of the facts.

I do firmly believe that angulation plays a role in ACL issues...but so does the exercise and training and nutrition, and all dogs aren't on a level playing field there.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Juli H said:


> I have often wondered if folks that run their dogs hard on a near daily basis (hard as in, train for FT every day) ever consider doing weight pull training, or roading, at the very least...here are a couple of pictures that show how weight pulling could benefit the dog by strengthening the muscles in a low impact sort of way....
> 
> http://img156.imageshack.us/i/img1487s.jpg/
> 
> ...


Juli, I road my dogs in harness three days a week, using a rig I had made for the front of my Ranger. It handles four dogs at a time. The Brittany and the Chessie and the Pointer pull great....but my Lab thinks she should ride in the cab. ;-)

Seriously, it's great conditioning.


----------



## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

Ken Archer said:


> Am I to assume that, after 2300 hits and 39 posts, there are only two top Labrador sires that haven't had ACL or CCL surgeries? Surely there are more worthy dogs out there that haven't been subjected to the knife.


Could be that people don't want to play your game as they don't buy into it. I have no clue about whether this is genetic, environmental or a sheer act of nature....but I opened the thread because it hit 5 pages. To each his own.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Am I to assume that, after 2300 hits and 39 posts, there are only two top Labrador sires that haven't had ACL or CCL surgeries? Surely there are more worthy dogs out there that haven't been subjected to the knife.


Ken

I suspect you are getting no bites because:

1) You have not defined what a "top Labrador sire" is;
2) Many people are not interested in playing the Letterman top 10 game; and
3) Most people do not have direct knowledge of a dog's (top or not) health history

Ted


----------



## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

Ken Archer said:


> Am I to assume that, after 2300 hits and 39 posts, there are only two top Labrador sires that haven't had ACL or CCL surgeries? Surely there are more worthy dogs out there that haven't been subjected to the knife.


What are you calling a "top sire?" There are many healthy hard running dogs that have produced good pups. Some have produced excellent pups.

fp


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> What's your definition of "top"? Natl titled, Natl finisher, produced more than X number of FC, FC or AFC over the age of X, an FC or AFC titled dog, or a MH? Not a lover of the words top and quality because that's a typical newspaper description.


A "top" dog could be any of the above. I have also used a HRCH/QAA dog that I think fits the description. He is a full brother of FC-AFC Calumets Super Sonic. His mother is Nicki, FC-AFC Scans In The Nick Of Time, a female that I consider to be one of the breed's best producers. He is also half-brother to Ranger, Deuce, Cody, Ruger, POW, Candy and Digger. I would have mentioned him in my first post, but we collected him three years ago and I have all his stored semen. He is as sound at 11-years-old as the day he was born and I like his pups.

Esprit Out of The Woods, Tiger, is often referred to as a top sire because of his relationship to Nicki, but was only a QAA performer. Super Powder was only QAA but most people would consider him to be a building block of the breed in spite of his medical problems. A top dog can be any combination of a titled dog, a producer of competitive field trial or hunt test progeny, a dog with a great pedigree, or a dog who has impressed me with his personality, performance and trainability.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Super Powder had an Open 4th, two Amateur 3rds and an Amateur 4th...to say he was only a QAA doesnt really do him justice...Tiger threw a very good dog, I know we have one, she is a very honest marker with a sweet attitude and will enjoy many a duck hunt this year...


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Esprit Out of The Woods, Tiger, is often referred to as a top sire because of his relationship to Nicki, but was only a QAA performer.


Tiger needed a win for his FC, while a better sire than a competitor to classify him as "only a QAA performer" is somewhat inaccurate

same with Super Powder who had an impressive Derby career but was at best poorly trained


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Super Powder had an Open 4th, two Amateur 3rds and an Amateur 4th...to say he was only a QAA doesnt really do him justice...Tiger threw a very good dog, I know we have one, she is a very honest marker with a sweet attitude and will enjoy many a duck hunt this year...





EdA said:


> Tiger needed a win for his FC, while a better sire than a competitor to classify him as "only a QAA performer" is somewhat inaccurate
> same with Super Powder who had an impressive Derby career but was at best poorly trained


This illustrates my point. For all those people who only want a pup out of an FC-AFC X FC-AFC breeding, Tiger and Super Power were "only QAA". We all have a different idea of what "top" is but each of these dogs was worthy of using in a breeding program. Eventually we have to get down to choosing a sire based on the best compromise of titles, performance, production, health clearances, soundness, color, conformation, ad infinitum. It seems everyone wants to avoid the issue. All I want to know is, regardless of anything else, what dogs over the age of say 6-7 still have their ACLs or CCLs intact.


----------



## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I'm pretty sure FC Fargo II ended his competing career with intact ACL's.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

How about the female part of the equation? A lot of the great producers weren't titled...so how do we know they'd hold up to rigorous training? And are titles critical to being considered a "top dog"? 

Can't Expect The Males To Supply All The Genetics Regards-


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Ken Archer said:


> Am I to assume that, after 2300 hits and 39 posts, there are only two top Labrador sires that haven't had ACL or CCL surgeries? Surely there are more worthy dogs out there that haven't been subjected to the knife.


I agree with an earlier comment, most people know very little about the health status of most competing field dogs unless they own them. Unfortunately this can be attributed in some cases to owners & breeders reluctant to being forthcoming with health details, being concerned about diminished value. Others don't consider health to be of primary value when considering a pup, deferring primarily to the rewarded field achievements of the sire & dam. But to your question, if someone knows of a top field competitor with intact ACLs why not mention it? Just define "top competitor" as you see fit. Seems easy enough.....


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> A "top" dog could be any of the above. I have also used a HRCH/QAA dog that I think fits the description. He is a full brother of FC-AFC Calumets Super Sonic. His mother is Nicki, FC-AFC Scans In The Nick Of Time, a female that I consider to be one of the breed's best producers. He is also half-brother to Ranger, Deuce, Cody, Ruger, POW, Candy and Digger. I would have mentioned him in my first post, but we collected him three years ago and I have all his stored semen. He is as sound at 11-years-old as the day he was born and I like his pups.
> 
> Esprit Out of The Woods, Tiger, is often referred to as a top sire because of his relationship to Nicki, but was only a QAA performer. Super Powder was only QAA but most people would consider him to be a building block of the breed in spite of his medical problems. A top dog can be any combination of a titled dog, a producer of competitive field trial or hunt test progeny, a dog with a great pedigree, or a dog who has impressed me with his personality, performance and trainability.


In short, what ever people think is a "top sire" is a "top sire"?

That does not further the discussion much.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> . It seems everyone wants to avoid the issue. All I want to know is, regardless of anything else, what dogs over the age of say 6-7 still have their ACLs or CCLs intact.


Hardly avoiding the issue, when you have re-defined the classifications so broadly - going from an undefined "top sire" to dogs over the age of 6 or 7

Neither FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie (Zowie) nor FC/AFC Sky Hy's Husker Power were "top sires" (only being breed once or twice each), but both retired with their knees and elbows intact - Ace at nine and Zowie at ten.


----------



## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Okay...now we know which dogs are not on the "white" List...just about all of them...lol


----------



## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

I hear there are a lot of show dogs without torn ACLs. Maybe we should start breeding them with our field lines. Would really be nice if the were EIC and CNM clear. Excellent Hips. Thyroid and Eyes good.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Neither FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie (Zowie) nor FC/AFC Sky Hy's Husker Power were "top sires" (only being breed once or twice each), but both retired with their knees and elbows intact - Ace at nine and Zowie at ten.


There are many situations where several litter mates have had one or both TPLOs. However, you don't often hear about litter mates like Ace and Zowie who both make it over 9-years-old and are still sound. Whether they were bred much or not they still have something to offer the breed in the area of soundness and performance longevity.


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Ken, have any of your labradors suffered from CCL injuries? 

If so, did you think injury was caused from an acute incident?

Or poor conformation ( ie too straight in the hindlegs), obesity, genetics (autoimmunity???), weekend warrior (over weight or inadequate muscule tone)?


----------



## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I would not be surprised to find a genetic component affecting the incidence of CCL injuries. However, when a football player or Olympic gymnast sustains a torn ligament, we understand that the issue is the stress associated with the sport. The fact that the athlete was able to compete long enough to be a contender is _prima facia_ evidence of great structural genetics. That does not mean that we should not try to do even better in our breeding. However, I b e;lieve that few, if any, if the successful field trial dogs that have sustained CCL injuries would have had any problems at all if they had been trained as seeing eye dogs or allowed to watch too much television instead.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I believe there is probably a genetic component to ACL injury as well.

However, I will be extremely surprised if we ever figure out what it is. 

We are are a _LONG_ way from having a "white list".


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Aussie said:


> Ken, have any of your labradors suffered from CCL injuries?


No, and it is something I'm not anxious to experience. You're not only looking at $2000-3000 for a TPLO (you can double that cause the other leg is probably going to require one also) but you are also out all the time for rest and recuperation. Sound feet and legs are equal to performance in my book. A dog can have the best marking ability, nose, etc., but it is all worthless if it can't get to the bird and back. I want my puppies to have the best shot at sharing a long trouble free life with their new owners.


----------



## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

The question in regard to breeding stock is: 

If a particular dam has not competed at a higher level (let's just say for the sake of argument, 2-3 years of daily, demanding training or, at a minimum, to a MH or QAA level), how can you base the soundness of your offspring on just the stud dog? Even if you assume that the stud dog contributes 50% to the makeup of the pups (some would say less), you have 50% that is unproven as far as soundness. Her pedigree is not enough...

I appreciate that everyone would like to eliminate structural issues BUT it seems that the studs are attributed for far more than their share of negative issues...


----------



## RodneyB46 (Dec 18, 2008)

SueLab said:


> I appreciate that everyone would like to eliminate structural issues BUT it seems that the studs are attributed for far more than their share of negative issues...


never thought of it that way. i have to agree


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

SueLab said:


> I appreciate that everyone would like to eliminate structural issues BUT it seems that the studs are attributed for far more than their share of negative issues...


The fact remains that the people who are raising puppies have females. In most cases they can breed their "average" female to the "best" male. I don't know of anyone with the "best" female who would want to breed her to an "average" male. Until that changes most improvement in the breed will come from the sire end. It is probably true that "studs are attributed for far more than their share of negative issues", but the opposite also holds true. They are often given more credit than they deserve for producing the best puppies at the expense of the female.


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

Just curious ken, but what are you trying to get out of this?? Seems like this is kind of a dead thread. No info is coming out.


----------



## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

I read thur this tread just for info. I read an article in retriever journal (2001). Mike Lardy ask a Purina scientist about the effects of food in training. The gentleman raced sled dogs and they found that a diet of less than 20% fat soft tissue injuries went way up. Could it be in the last 10 years we have raised the bar on what and how we feed our labs when working and trailing. To Where when we breed good sound dogs and feed good food, this has decreased the acl injuries of the past.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

JeffLusk said:


> Just curious ken, but what are you trying to get out of this?? Seems like this is kind of a dead thread. No info is coming out.


You noticed that too? Well, hope springs eternal. I have received some PMs and phone calls that have been very helpful. It would be understandable if people were reluctant to call out dogs that have sustained CCL injuries, but I can't understand why they wouldn't want to identify dogs that have remained sound through many years of competition. Seems to me that would be a good thing.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Ken, asking for this info. on a public forum is kind of like asking who's got herpes or has had someone in their family afflicted. You know they are out there, but no one else except the person with the herpes has the right to respond without looking like a thrill vulture. Same for discussing flaws of any kind of a sire currently standing at stud. Best to just ask the owners of the dogs you're interested in privately since it's important to you. If you don't think they're telling you the truth, go elsewhere.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> Ken, asking for this info. on a public forum is kind of like asking who's got herpes or has had someone in their family afflicted. You know they are out there, but no one else except the person with the herpes has the right to respond without looking like a thrill vulture. Same for discussing flaws of any kind of a sire currently standing at stud. Best to just ask the owners of the dogs you're interested in privately since it's important to you. If you don't think they're telling you the truth, go elsewhere.


My original question was and still is about dogs who have remained sound throughout their competitive careers. Remaining sound BTW is a good thing and I can't imagine any stud owner not wanting people to discuss their dog's good points. I'm just going to drop the subject until people learn how to read and comprehend. As far as I am concerned this thread is closed.


----------



## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Ken, have you thought that perhaps those with intact knees might not want to jinx themselves by saying something about it? Unless the dog is dead any dog could, under the right (or wrong) happenstance, pop a ligament.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> Ken, have you thought that perhaps those with intact knees might not want to jinx themselves by saying something about it? Unless the dog is dead any dog could, under the right (or wrong) happenstance, pop a ligament.


I agree. It's not comprehension. Only the stud owners should answer and maybe they don't want to put it in black and white or maybe their acl tear was from a dramatic injury. I remember Rooster took a terrible fall at the 2007 ? national with the hills and he came up with the bird but came back and was obviously injured and they pulled him. Should the results of that fall be subject to internet discussion as to whether it was genetic? I know brothers FC Joe Black and FC Razz never had acl problems. Many of these fine animals will injure themselves without regard to their bodies in pursuit of the bird but that wouldn't stop me from breeding to them.


----------



## choch2odog (Feb 8, 2005)

I've got a 9 year old HRCH/MH that at age 7 began to experience intermittent lameness of the right rear leg. At first the limp was minimal and infrequent but in time it became more pronounced and frequent. TPLO was performed, healing was good at 6 weeks. At 12 weeks a broken screw was seen and the osteotomy had regressed. The screw was replaced and a bone graft was added to the site of the osteotomy. After 12 weeks he was released back to activities. Two weeks later he became acutely lame, after just going outside to air. He had blown his meniscus, on that knee. 8 weeks later he was released to return to activities and has run a half dozen tests without incident. He is 9 now and still goes hard on marks but joggs back to the line. But, he still marks well and loves to pick up a duck. In addition to competion he hunted every beaver pond and swamp in a three county area and attacked every log jam, floater with vigor. My opinion is that his ccl injury represents a combination of wear and tear/ injury. The left knee is still intact and has never been an issue despite over a year of surgery, rehab altered gait and weight bearing ect. If in fact his condition was genetic I beleive it would have presented it self as a bilateral event and he had every excuse to blow out the other knee. Both parents had intact ccl's at the time of there death.

My wife is on the way as I type this to pick up the 10 month old pup who just had a TPLO performed. He has been symptomatic since 4 months old, and have been waiting for him to reach skeletal maturity. He never actually tore the CCL, his avulsed from the tibial plateu. His sire is four or five and if competing in the National Open, the dam competed in AA stakes until age 10. Both have intact CCL's.

Is there a genetic component to CCL injuries? Maybe. But you will never be able to diffrentiate those, who have had traumatic events. If it is genetic: is that the same sequence of genes that allow them to run faster, hit the water with style and go over a floater instead of around it. I suspect that as we have bred for dogs with style drive ect., as a result we have created athletes that can run harder longer and faster. Testing has become more difficult and training has become more intense, which has pushed these animals to there physiological limits on many levels.

We could all run dogs that plod along and wade into the water. I'm sure the incidence of ccl injury would decrease dramatically. But, what fun would that be?


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Ken Archer said:


> ...In most cases they can breed their "average" female to the "best" male. I don't know of anyone with the "best" female who would want to breed her to an "average" male. Until that changes most improvement in the breed will come from the sire end....


Why is it okay to breed average females?

If the female's negative traits are dominant, they will be expressed, regardless of how exceptional the Stud is.

Each Parent supplies one gene in each pair. The female has as much of a "genetic" say as the male.


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> Why is it okay to breed average females?
> 
> If the female's negative traits are dominant, they will be expressed, regardless of how exceptional the Stud is.
> 
> Each Parent supplies one gene in each pair. The female has as much of a "genetic" say as the male.


Thats true, but stud owners can't pick which female they want to breed to. On the other hand, the average female can breed to just about any stud they desire. An average female to one, is an exceptional to another. Breeding healthy pups is good for the breed, and keeps us all playing the dog games. Not everyone wants an fc x fc breeding or can afford it. Just my 2 pennies.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

JeffLusk said:


> Thats true, but stud owners can't pick which female they want to breed to. On the other hand, the average female can breed to just about any stud they desire. An average female to one, is an exceptional to another. Breeding healthy pups is good for the breed, and keeps us all playing the dog games. Not everyone wants an fc x fc breeding or can afford it. Just my 2 pennies.


Why can't the Stud owner insist that he is only bred to approved bitches? If I owned a FC that was an EIC carrier, I certainly would require that the bitch's owner show proof she is EIC clear. I would be upfront about his EIC status, but I wouldn't want to damage my reputation by throwing affected pups, with his name on the pedigree.

I am not so unreasonable that I would insist that a female be a FC before she is bred. I just think she should be _above_ average. In my opinion a 3 yr old MH or QAA is well above average.


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> Why can't the Stud owner insist that he is only bred to approved bitches? If I owned a FC that was an EIC carrier, I certainly would require that the bitch's owner show proof she is EIC clear. I would be upfront about his EIC status, but I wouldn't want to damage my reputation by throwing affected pups, with his name on the pedigree.
> 
> I am not so unreasonable that I would insist that a female be a FC before she is bred. I just think she should be _above_ average. In my opinion a 3 yr old MH or QAA is well above average.


I doubt any eic carrier studs are breeding to anything but clear. At least those with half a brain. 
Why would a stud owner not breed to a female with a nice pedigree and all clearances though??? Unless semen is limited.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I'm sorry. My last post is steering this thread even farther off topic.

I guess my point is, that it will take twice as long to reduce the incidence of CCL injury by breeding alone, if we only look at the Sire's side of the equation.

Take Hip Dysplasia for example. Breeders have a scientific method of selecting only dogs with sound hips for breeding. They can do this with males and females. However, we still have dysplastic pups being thrown.

It is getting better, but it still happens.

Can you imagine how little improvement we would have seen by now, if we only evaluated male dogs?

It isn't realistic to say that a NFC Sire that injures his CCL at 8 yrs of age is more genetically prone to injury, than a 4 yr old female that never ran a test higher than Junior.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> It isn't realistic to say that a NFC Sire that injures his CCL at 8 yrs of age, is more genetically prone to injury than a 4 yr old female, that never ran a test higher than Junior.


I don't have any idea what you are talking about.

Most knowledgeable people believe that knee injuries are genetically influenced.

A given dog's environmental history would have no bearing on its genetic predisposition. Assume three cloned dogs, for genetic purposes, it doesn't matter whether 

- Dog A is an NFC
- Dog B is a JH
- Dog C is a couch potatoe

They all have identical DNA


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> I don't have any idea what you are talking about.
> 
> Most knowledgeable people believe that knee injuries are genetically influenced.
> 
> ...


I can't tell if the above post is sarcasm.


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

I think your post was misworded copterdoc. You are saying a dog that is a NFC is more "GENETICALLY" prone to injury than a JH dog. Genetics are genetics. Physical activity may make a difference.


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

copterdoc said:


> I can't tell if the above post is sarcasm.


I will assume it is not.

I wouldn't say you are comparing apples to oranges, but you are adding dissimilar fractions without finding the least common denominator.

If we are talking about three cloned dogs:

(1.) 6 yr old NFC.

(2.) 6 yr old JH.

(3.) 6 yr old Couch potato.

And dog #1 tears both CCL's within 1 year of each other, it would be logical to assume that the other two dogs would/will do the same, provided they are/were subjected to the high workload of dog #1. That is measurable, repeatable data.

But that isn't what we are talking about.

We are talking about dogs that are NOT genetically identical and are of vastly DIFFERENT age groups.

We don't know if a 4 yr old JH bitch that hasn't really been put to the test _WOULD HAVE_ ruptured her CCL's or not. She is too young and hasn't been subjected to anywhere close to the amount of joint stress that an 8 yr old NFC Stud has.

Maybe, she is FAR genetically inferior and would have ruptured her CCL on the first 300 yrd marked triple she ran at 2 years of age. But we don't know. She gives us no usable data to compare.

We need to compare like age dogs, that are actually being subjected to work that can cause them to express an indication of genetic deficiency.

That will tell us which dogs are sound and which ones are weak.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> But that isn't what we are talking about.
> 
> We are talking about dogs that are NOT genetically identical and are of vastly DIFFERENT age groups.


I still have no idea what you are trying to say or accomplish.


----------



## Rhett Riddle (May 16, 2006)

To my knowledge FC Runnin with the devil never tore an acl


----------



## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Another way to look at this is to compare the number of ACL injuries, percentage wise, in all the breeds who compete at national levels. Meaning ACLs in Pointers that are winning FCs, Border Collies that are competing nationally in herding, beagles in their field trials, etc.

Unfortunately, I think you'll find that Labs blow more ACLs when competing at those levels than the other breeds. It would be interesting to do a retrospective study on that.


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

wheelhorse said:


> Another way to look at this is to compare the number of ACL injuries, percentage wise, in all the breeds who compete at national levels. Meaning ACLs in Pointers that are winning FCs, Border Collies that are competing nationally in herding, beagles in their field trials, etc.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think you'll find that Labs blow more ACLs when competing at those levels than the other breeds. It would be interesting to do a retrospective study on that.


The Study of the Genetics of Cranial Cruciate Ligament Disease in the Dog - 2008 
Max Rothschild, PhD. Iowa State University 
Background Cranial cruciate ligament disease (CCLD) is the cause of limping in nearly 20 percent of all dogs that are taken by their owners to veterinarians for lameness. CCLD causes instability in the knee, swelling and pain. Surgery to stabilize a torn CCL costs individual dog owners thousands of dollars and the dog owning public tens of millions of dollars each year and even with surgery, debilitating arthritis occurs and progresses. CCLD commonly occurs in particular breeds of dogs (e.g. Labrador Retreiver, Rottweiler, and Newfoundland) while other breeds (e.g. Greyhound, German Shepherd) rarely develop this problem. When a disease is seen with increased frequency in particular breeds of dogs, this supports the probability that a disease, in this case CCLD, is hereditary.
Using this information we have already collected pedigrees and genetic material (DNA) from normal and CCLD affected Newfoundlands. The pedigrees will be used to determine a pattern of inheritance (i.e. simple recessive, sex-linked) for CCLD. The DNA will be used to search for genetic markers that differ between normal and affected dogs and may serve as disease predictors. These markers will then allow identification of carriers of CCLD, and potentially reduction or elimination of CCLD from the dog population.


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Dogs frequently injure their cranial cruciate ligament (CCL), the canine equivalent of the anterior cruciate ligament in humans. Rupture of the CCL is the most common orthopedic problem seen in veterinary practices around the world. Harasen 2008. A Wall Street Journal article reports the number of dog knees undergoing cruciate-ligament repair each year in America at more than 1.2 million – approximately five times the number of human procedures, although humans outnumber dogs in the U.S. by nearly five to one. Wall Street Journal 2006. 

The cost is high. In 2003, American dog owners spent over 1.3 billion dollars for surgical repair of ruptured CCLs. Wilke et al. 2005 

.....................................................................................................................

Wow, 1.3 billion!!!


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

My local vet sees small breeds that blow ACLs just jumping onto the couch. Predisposed due to heredity--seems likely. For FT dogs, add the stress of day in/out training, jumping into dog boxes, running a couple of miles for a retrieve on one setup, training when ligaments are sore/stressed--FT is a very extreme sport IMO. There are dogs out there that are 8 years old (and older) that are still competing without injury.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

HiRollerlabs said:


> There are dogs out there that are 8 years old (and older) that are still competing without injury.


Those are the dogs I want to hear about. It might be structure or something else that allows those dogs to remain sound throughout their competitive careers, but whatever it is, we need to be using them more in our breeding programs. 

It isn't enough to sit back and moan about the lack of a sharply defined cause of blown ccl's. The shotgun approach will have to do until we can hone in on a specific marker, if there is such a thing in this case. I use to think torn ccl's were just a result of asking too much of our athletes. But then I noticed that these injuries were popping up more frequently along family lines. That is when I was convinced to quit using sires with a history of ccl problems.

The whole idea behind this thread was to identify dogs that remained sound throughout a long competitive career. It is easy to identify dogs that needed a TPLO operation and were out of training and competition for 6 months to a year. The ones that have remained sound are the difficult ones to identify. They quietly go about getting the job done until they are 10-11 years old and then, when they are past their reproductive prime, we realize, "Wow, that was tough old dog."


----------



## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Those are the dogs I want to hear about.
> 
> "


At over 10 years of age, National finalist, FC AFC Marsh Prairie Quick Pick has not had any injuries and just won back to back Opens! 

Too bad Quick's owner is judging the National because Quick is currently marking like a hawk!

Ken, I hope you'll share your findings with me.


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> That is when I was convinced to quit using sires with a history of ccl problems.


I thought I should explain this a little more because I am sure there are some of you that question not using dogs that have accidental injuries. I have the deepest respect for Tom Lasater, founder of the Beefmaster breed of cattle. One of Tom's basic principles is that each cow has to bring in a paycheck every year, period. If a cow is standing on top of a hill with her calf at side and the calf is killed by lightning, the cow is sold that Fall. "We lose a few good ones that way but we get all the lemons," Tom said. 

If only we all had hundreds or thousands of animals to choose from. In most cases we have one dog....a female. But we have hundreds of sires to breed her to. Franco, you and I agree on one thing. There are plenty of sires out there to select from that don't have health and structural problems. So why use one that does?

I might add that Tom said, "Raising cattle is simple. The only difficult part is keeping it simple." Same holds true for dogs.


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

Ken,

I like the gist of the thread, however I'm not surprised at the resistance to it. 

There are certain dogs that I would not consider breeding a dog to, or getting a pup from because of what I consider is too high of an occurrence rate of these types of injuries. While I might get specific during a one on one conversation on the tailgate, I would not list them in a public form. That privilege lies with the owners. 

I'm not sure if there is a genetic trait/structure problem that can be identified. I do know that over time as I hear of repeated occurrences in certain lines, then in my mind a flag gets thrown and that's enough for me to steer clear. Although my personal choices have varied and changed over time as to what "top dog" means. I would love to buy only pups from FC AFC X FC AFC breeding's, I either can't afford them, or convince my wife that I NEED one, not sure which one. I'm usually a generation or more down the line, but for comparison reasons, if I knew of any Field Trial pedigrees or specific lines where two or three generations of higher level field trained dogs (MH or higher), male or female, had experienced these types of injuries and who had siblings and offspring who also had. Then I start thinking there is more to it than accidental or finding big enough holes.

A factual list with occurrences in siblings or offspring would be a great thing to have. 

On the flipside, can the problem be bred away from, if you take a dog from a line with a high occurrence rate and breed it to a dog from a line with a low or no occurrence rate, would you be improving one line or detracting from the other?

Brad


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Dukdawg said:


> On the flipside, can the problem be bred away from, if you take a dog from a line with a high occurrence rate and breed it to a dog from a line with a low or no occurrence rate, would you be improving one line or detracting from the other? Brad


Let us ask that question in a different way. Would you rather have a dog with Excellent performance potential that will spend six months to 2 years in R&R or a dog with Excellent/Good performance potential that you can train and compete with every day of his life? Every breeding decision is a compromise.

Another thing to consider is this. Many people will buy a $800-1,000 pup because they can't afford $2,000-3,000 for a pup. If you are one of those people, you have to ask yourself, "Can I afford $2,000-3,000 for a TPLO....twice?

"Can the problem be bred away from?" I think we have to try.


----------



## Brad Slaybaugh (May 17, 2005)

Ken Archer said:


> Let us ask that question in a different way. Would you rather have a dog with Excellent performance potential that will spend six months to 2 years in R&R or a dog with Excellent/Good performance potential that you can train and compete with every day of his life? Every breeding decision is a compromise.
> 
> Another thing to consider is this. Many people will buy a $800-1,000 pup because they can't afford $2,000-3,000 for a pup. If you are one of those people, you have to ask yourself, "Can I afford $2,000-3,000 for a TPLO....twice?
> 
> "Can the problem be bred away from?" I think we have to try.


From what I've heard the 2K to 3K is on the low side, especially if you consider the rehab. 

When you say breed away, do you mean by avoiding, or trying to improve?


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Many people will buy a $800-1,000 pup because they can't afford $2,000-3,000 for a pup. If you are one of those people, you have to ask yourself, "Can I afford $2,000-3,000 for a TPLO....twice?


perhaps the question those people should be asking is "can I afford the medical expenses associated with dog ownership" since CCL ruptures are only one of a myriad of problems assocated with athletic dogs


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

EdA said:


> perhaps the question those people should be asking is "can I afford the medical expenses associated with dog ownership" since CCL ruptures are only one of a myriad of problems assocated with athletic dogs


I know what you mean. A couple of my vets have become very good friends. I guess that is because I see them so often. ;-)


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> I thought I should explain this a little more because I am sure there are some of you that question not using dogs that have accidental injuries. I have the deepest respect for Tom Lasater, founder of the Beefmaster breed of cattle.


Ken, does Mr Lasater bring up estimated breeding values? My head starts to hurt when the subject is raised, relating to canine breeding. 

Did anyone else hear a rumour that finalising of study (link http://www.rottweilerhealth.org/pdfs/grant247_final_report.pdf) is expected in October 2010?


----------



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Aussie said:


> Ken, does Mr Lasater bring up estimated breeding values? My head starts to hurt when the subject is raised, relating to canine breeding.


You must have missed the quote in my earlier post. Tom said, "Raising cattle is simple. The only difficult part is keeping it simple." As a Yale graduate, Tom was an Ivy League rancher who definitely thought out of the box. He didn't believe in pedigrees....."they are only as good as the word of the breeder." He always had multi-sire herds.....the best and strongest bull always sired the most calves. Estimated breeding values probably made his head hurt as well.


----------



## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Ken, have you (or anyone else) contacted Iowa State University? 

A DNA test would be nice.


----------



## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

I think that if look at this in a common sense way, we will realize that there are a multitude of factors leading to an injury or not. What appears to be missing in this conversation is the preparation and development of a dog so to NOT get injured. Perhaps this is near and dear to me from my personal aging and "stuff" popping up physically. For example a person who spend a lot of time in the gym lifting weights, goes out a tears the rotator cuff in a softball game. How can that happen he is in such good shape. Yes, but has he done the specific shoulder exercises that target those small muscles of the shoulder? If anyone has done any rehab you know most of the exercises done in rehab are nothing like classic weight lifting.
This is what therapists refer to as the weekend warrior syndrome, however, you do not need to be a couch potato to have this happen. If training is not completely balanced then we get and imbalance in the body and the weaker system is more likely to get injured. World class athletes do a lot of training to keep their body balanced. Most of the rest of us do not have the time or the knowledge to keep balanced.
Now think about the way our dogs move, run and stop from a bio-mechanical aspect. Other than roading, or jogging with a dog, how many people do any training other than "field training"?? Running hills is a good way to strengthen the back of a dog and the hind part of the back legs, as an example. I am as guilty as anyone of getting the dogs in the truck and go train. We do warm up and cool down, but not physical training. We all really need to think about balancing their physical training as much as the field training.

Perhaps if someone on this board is a PT person for a dog, or has rehabbed a dog from an ACL they can comment on exercises to help train a dog to strength the muscles that help support the ligaments.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Thanks for your post Nate. This has always had special interest for me. We do not have any hills around here and other than field training about all I can do is ride the bicycle with my dog for several miles a couple of times a week. Even then, we have too much of the available ride on asphalt to suit me.

I also try to run him on a few back to back marks at about 125 yards in deeper running water, (when I can catch the tides right out in the salt marsh). It _seems_ like that would be a pretty good work out as he is leaping through the water and at a slower pace than running land.

Any other ideas for conditioning in a suburban environment would be greatly appreciated.

(I hope this isn't too much of a hijack, if so someone can start a conditioning for injury prevention thread)


----------



## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

NateB said:


> Perhaps if someone on this board is a PT person for a dog, or has rehabbed a dog from an ACL they can comment on exercises to help train a dog to strength the muscles that help support the ligaments.


My recollection for strengthening after ACL repair was to have the dog walk up/down stairs. I do not recall how often or how many stairs. I will look for the info and update if I find it. Seems that if this is still a recommended exercise for post ACL, it might be good at any point in a dog's life.

Possibly Dr. Ed could provide his experience.


----------



## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Ken Archer said:


> Lab breeders have the tools to reduce or eliminate the problems with hips, eyes, elbows, CNM and EIC. Now it seems like the major loss of training and competing time is lost to ACLs. Which top living Labrador sires haven't experienced torn ACLs? The list is probably pretty short and getting shorter, but I hope I'm wrong. How about the dead sires that still have semen available?
> 
> We can start the list with NAFTCH-FC-AFC He's Czar Nicholas. Nick competed until he was 10 years old and his only injury occurred when someone backed a car over him when he was staked out. He still won the Canadian National Amateur after that happened.


 
I have continued to follow this thread hoping a real list would eventually immerge. That said, I think only 5-6 dogs have actually been mentioned in 11 pages of comments. 

Ken, have you been keeping a list of dogs by name? If so, would you share it with us?


----------



## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

Cross post:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47852&highlight=ccl

The genetics of injury to the cranial cruciate ligament in Newfoundlands and
related breeds of dog
Principal Investigator: Vicki Wilke, DVM, PhD, DACVS
Contact: Alexa Hart, phone: 612-624-5695, email: [email protected]

We are studying an orthopedic condition, cranial cruciate ligament rupture
(CCLR), that causes hind limb lameness in nearly 20% of dogs. The study
hypothesis is that mutations may exist in genes predisposing some dogs to
CCLR. Newfoundland dogs and related breeds are the focus of this study
because they are at high risk for CCL injury, and previous study has shown
that this is a hereditary condition.

We are collecting blood samples for DNA from a related breed of dog, the
Labrador retriever, which are affected and unaffected with CCLR. We are
looking for dogs under 2 years old with CCLR, and over 8 years old without
CCLR. These samples will be searched for genetic markers that may serve as
disease predictors. These markers will then allow identification of
carriers of CCLR, and potentially the reduction or elimination of CCLR from
the dog population.

For more information or to enroll your pet, contact Alexa Hart (see above).


Vicki Wilke, DVM, PhD, DACVS
Assistant Clinical Professor
Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Minnesota
St. Paul, MN 55108


----------

