# Selection vs Non Selection



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Not looking to get into a urinating match on why you select vs why you dont...but was curious as to how most on here select...out > in, short > long..also for those that dont select...what order..last > first


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## redleg06 (Jan 28, 2008)

....I just watch the dogs and handlers in front of me. If they look like they know what they're doing, I just follow their lead!!!;-)


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## ssinnaeve (Dec 15, 2010)

I select if there are conflicting marks


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## CF (May 24, 2006)

Most of the time it will be outside...outside...middle...unless there are factors with the test that would require otherwise...


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

outside outside middle, short long longer.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

in order to be successful in selection at a test or trial, you have to do it in training successfuly. i would be hesitant to try to select just because some people are having success doing a test a certain way unless i am confident MY dog will be comfortable pulling off a bird it would ordinarily want next.

i am a situational selector.-Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I voted my dog chooses.
But I will say, most of the time that decision of hers is outside, outside.

Gooser


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

There are a lot of variables that come into play on when and if to select...retired or visible ...hunt test where some throwers are hidden and other marks the blinds( hides) are in plain sight...ect...I let the situation dictate and the dogs attitude on what they want next ....I don't argue on test day ....I count on the dog ...Steve S


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I voted "_I select in a different way_" because none of the choices really describes secondary selection, which I do with all my dogs. Last bird down first, next closest, next closest.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

What do you folks consider primary selection to be ???? ....and what about secondary selection? 

Don't you primary select *off* of the last bird down ???

john


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

"other" for me - meaning all of the above and none of the above at the same time.

i realize i am a totally unproven rookie amateur here, but really - how can anyone here answer this poll before you have seen the birds fall in a given series????

no mention of wind, sun angle, treelines, water suction, topography, retireds, etc etc that can all factor in.

sorry Bon, i do like and respect you, but this poll although a great topic for debate is woefully inadequate to fully evaluate....


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Selection has nothing to do with anything but the Handler picking the order of the way the birds are picked up.

If the first bird to be picked up is the last bird down you have NOT "selected" at all;-)

Selection by the handler of another bird to be picked up first is Primary Selection, no matter the wind, sun angle, treelines, water suction, topography, retireds, etc etc...............



john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Primary Selection or Secondary Selection


From my notes of the summer spent with Rex, I developed a clear view of what he was describing because a pro named Dennis Ludington was there the whole time I was, specifically to get Rex to help him train two client’s dogs become reliable Primary Selectors. Part of the description of the goals for that work necessarily involved contrasting it with those of Secondary Selection.


He spoke consistently of the “selection bird” as the short memory bird; time and again the key bird in many triples and/or quads. Primary selection had come into existence as a method of defeating the Indented Triple – short middle retired gun. He had been coaching clients at a national Open when he saw an indented triple readily overcome by Roy Gonia, who selected the middle bird first, and easily nailed the outside marks, one of which was the last bird down as usual. He said, “I invented selection on the flight home.”


Of course he meant that he invented the drill work to establish that discipline. At the time I was there he was still teaching it, but only to those who specifically requested it. It was treated as a discipline by which you chose to pretty much live or die because it was hard to maintain at his high standards, and alternating selection methods tended to quickly erode the primary selection skill to an unreliable state.


Essentially, the description in my notes, and from my memory agree that the description of the two types are:


Primary Selection; Retrieve the closest bird first, regardless of the order thrown. Then next closest, next closest.
Secondary Selection; Retrieve the last bird down first (regardless of location in the set up), then next closest, next closest.
It was that simple, and I did not see any exceptions over the summer I spent there. I’m sure exceptions had a place, but I don’t recall any being made in the field, nor do I recall any discussion of them.

I'm thinking Ed A., or perhaps Lanse might have something to contribute to this?


Evan


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

john fallon said:


> *Selection has nothing to do with anything but the Handler picking the order of the way the birds are picked up.*
> 
> If the first bird to be picked up is the last bird down you have NOT "selected" at all;-)
> 
> ...


really? so you just select this order out of your arse with no regard to wind or _*any*_ other factors?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

david gibson said:


> really? so you just select this order out of your arse with no regard to wind or _*any*_ other factors?


Why one does it has nothing to do with what it is called .

john


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Why one does it has nothing to do with what it is called .
> 
> john


thank you for that clear as mud explanation.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Evan said:


> Primary Selection or Secondary Selection
> 
> 
> From my notes of the summer spent with Rex, I developed a clear view of what he was describing because a pro named Dennis Ludington was there the whole time I was, specifically to get Rex to help him train two client’s dogs become reliable Primary Selectors. Part of the description of the goals for that work necessarily involved contrasting it with those of Secondary Selection.
> ...



http://retrievertraining.net/got.htm
Secondary Selection - When the handler decides which bird will be picked up next. Used mostly in Field Trials but is a useful tool in the Retriever Training Tool Box.


I've even heard the term tertiary selection being used for the selection of the third bird to be picked up......... but that would not fit into your explanation well.


john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

No offense, John, but I'll take Rex Carr's explanation and rationale. 

If you pick up the 'selection bird' first (regardless of order thrown) it's "primary" selection.

If you pick up the 'selection bird' second (regardless of order thrown) it's _"secondary"_ selection. When it's picked up second, that usually means the last bird down was retrieved first, and now the choice is between the short memory mark, or the long one. What matters most in selection strategies is proximity, and the influence of that proximity on memory birds in a multiple set.

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

David
I thought you ran some HRC tests?

Have you not run a Finished test where the judges designate order of pick up?

I have run tests where you were required to NO off the go bird, and pick up one of the other marks that were labled a cripple.

I call that Primary select. 

I pick the *primary *or first bird.

Memeber its Gooser ya are listening to.:razz:

Gooser


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

looks like I am the only one that doesnt select...or at least the only one willing to admit it...

To D.Gibson...no harm no fowl (pun intended) I wasnt looking to reinvent the wheel...it just seemed that based on the responses to some of the scenarios on Ted's set ups that selection played an important and constant theme...

I still think that there aer some newbies out there that have no idea what primary and secondary selection are, but were too afraid to ask...just trying to open things up so they could learn and make their own choice


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

well i guess i am just lost because i just dont see how every triple can picked up as either 1 or 2 as evan laid out. many times yes, but a test may be set up so that one of those are the best option, but a simple midday wind shift can change everything. i dont see it as black or white, many shades of gray can happen....in my last master my dog lied to me and decided to pull a primary when i - and most before me - had chosen secondary because of a cheaty set up.

i learned a lot that day, to go much slower and read my dog a little better and i think i can pick up on _his_ intentions better.....


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

There are very few absolutes in dog training or fieldwork David. The thing I'm attempting to clear up is what these terms mean in practice. As Mooser pointed out, primary selection can involve taking a selection bird that isn't necessarily a 'closest' bird, even though that's what it was created for. There are situations when a secondary selector may take a longer bird second because a handler sees that nearly every dog that does so is failing.

There are many ways any set up might successfully be retrieved. I think it's a good idea to make a study of how various conditoins affect dogwork. I also think it's a good practice to hold to a pattern of retrieval for most multiples because the steady expectations it provides a dog can help them perform with more consistency on standard concepts.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

By anyones definition, does the word selection ever mean letting the dog decide ?

john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Possibly, at least theorhetically. I say that because it's a decision the handler makes to primary select, secondary select, or not to select at all - leaving it up to the dog. For a vast majority of dogs I don't think primary selection is worth the trouble.

Evan


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I never no a dog off a bird. If birds go down around the horn - we pick up around the horn. If they go down middle outside out side. I pick up outside outside then middle. If flyer out of order and it is a tight setup I watch my dog and see how interested he is in the flyer. Most of the time I will let him get flyer not matter whether short or long. I train this way. In selection I pick up how I train the set up. But I keep an open mind when I watch my dog. Sometimes I do read him wrong but not often.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

I chose shortest to longest but probably should have said other. I train p/u go-bird first, like 99% of trainers do, then shortest to longest. I might vary from this at a trial if the set-up & conditions warrant it, if the dog shows a strong desire to get a longer bird, etc


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## north of 7 (Oct 27, 2006)

I like to believe that I select the order every bird is to be picked up in


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> I voted "_I select in a different way_" because none of the choices really describes secondary selection, which I do with all my dogs. Last bird down first, next closest, next closest.
> 
> Evan


Evan , What do you do when the gun or guns retire....? Does this change your order in relation to distance, short to longest after go bird..Say a short retired and a longer stand out ....Steve S


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## Labs a mundo (Mar 20, 2009)

In *training *I always pick up the shortest bird 1st whether it is last down, 2nd down or 1st down.
If it isn't last down, then my understanding is that I am making a primary selection.
I (and my training group) do this consistently and our dogs will usually swing to the short bird once all the birds are down, given the "easy" cue.

That's not to say that we always set up primary selection training set-ups.

Each idividual decides if we want to primary select and call for the birds in the order in which they want to train.
Depending upon the set-up and the wind, sun, and the F/T gods.... I run a primary selection training set-up maybe 10-15% of the time. If I feel that my dog will be challenged by the set-up I'll run it straight up, then repeat by changing the order of the throws. 
The order of the pick up never changes. Short bird 1st.

Whether we have a deep V, shallow V, or in-line the concept doesn't change *in training.*

In a trial...well, we hope our training pays off. If he doesn't come around to the short bird, I give it my darndest but if he wants a different bird and can't be convinced otherwise I go with his decision, then it's back to the drawing board in training.

This is just my training..... here in Canada with no flyers.
I'm well aware it would be diiferent with shot bird suction


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I almost never pick up a bird other than the go bird first. And when I have, I have not been successful.

I would say 95% of the time, I pick up the birds in this order
1) Go Bird
2) Shortest bird left
3) Next shortest bird


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I almost never pick up a bird other than the go bird first. And when I have, I have not been successful.
> 
> I would say 95% of the time, I pick up the birds in this order
> 1) Go Bird
> ...



How does they type of mark figure in to your decision? Visible, retired, flyer...

Would it make sense to send to a flyer if the dog seems keyed on it, even if its not the go bird?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

dnf777 said:


> How does they type of mark figure in to your decision? Visible, retired, flyer...
> 
> Would it make sense to send to a flyer if the dog seems keyed on it, even if its not the go bird?


By and large, I compete like I train.

In training, I pick up go bird, then shortest bird, then next shortest bird.
Visible, retired, flyer, whatever
That's how we train
So, when I am at a FT, I try to pick up the same way

Circumstances may require variation, but those circumstances would need to be pretty compelling


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Evan said:


> I voted "_I select in a different way_" because none of the choices really describes secondary selection, which I do with all my dogs. Last bird down first, next closest, next closest.
> 
> Evan


Same for me, except I said other.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> Evan , What do you do when the gun or guns retire....? Does this change your order in relation to distance, short to longest after go bird..Say a short retired and a longer stand out ....Steve S


That sceanario is what selection was created to deal with. It doesn't change anything for me whether the next closest gun is retired or not, other than knowing it is apt to require more concentration from the dog. But that doesn't affect the order. As Ted said, it would have to be a pretty compelling exception in circumstances to alter how we pick them up. Test like you train is a good pattern to follow, as long as you are willing to read and react to some exceptional conditions.

Evan


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Evan said:


> Primary Selection or Secondary Selection
> 
> 
> From my notes of the summer spent with Rex, I developed a clear view of what he was describing because a pro named Dennis Ludington was there the whole time I was, specifically to get Rex to help him train two client’s dogs become reliable Primary Selectors. Part of the description of the goals for that work necessarily involved contrasting it with those of Secondary Selection.
> ...


Not much to add as you have detailed what Rex was teaching at the time. My first introduction to primary or first bird selection was via some Rex clients who were quite successful on our circuit beginning in the 70s, specifically Don and Marion Weiss and Judy Weikel.

The technique was developed by Rex to make the short retired mark an easier mark because of the memory time involved and also the tendency of dogs not to go short after they have just been long. 

Also primary selection was a technique employed almost exclusively on land marks as water marks do not typically involve the same factors in a nitty gritty short retired land mark. 

Primary or first bird selection dictated that you ALWAYS retrieved birds in the order of length from short to long. Unfortunately in training this almost always involved a flyer dead bird conflict. Primary selection was really more about control at the line than it was about marking as we later learned that dogs could be quite successful on short retired marks utilizing secondary (second bird) selection. 

To be successful at primary selection required shooting lots of fliers and for some dogs the process (primary selection) could be quite detrimental to their training attitude and momentum.

I first visited CL-2 in the summer of 1978 at the height of primary selection. Virtually all of Rex's dogs were primary selectors at that time including some of the very best dogs in the country.

While I was a practitioner of primary selection I was never a true believer nor was my most successful field trial dog to that point FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit who could primary select flawlessly in training but sometimes chose his own way in competition. His kennel mate NAFC-FC Trumarc's Zip Code was a flawless primary selector be it training or competition but he was a truly great dog and could have been successful with almost any program. Judy often said that Cody was so smart he could have been trained to be a field champion with a piece of garden hose.

After a very disappointing showing at the 1986 National Amateur where Percy broke on the second bird of the opening triple and Cody went out in the 4th series (his worst National performance in a magnificent career) we made the decision not to pre-national train with Rex. How he (Rex) evolved after that from primary selection to, late in is career, allowing the dog to get whatever bird he choose I have no knowledge. 

In the late 80s we and almost everyone abandoned primary selection in favor of what most practice today, secondary or second bird selection which is typically dictated by last bird down first then next shorter bird although that is sometimes altered due to factors which might make the next shorter bird disadvantageous or the longer one advantageous. 

Additionally as quads become increasingly common the selection process becomes somewhat blurred beyond the first 2 birds retrieved.

Whatever process you choose should be adhered to in training and to a large degree in competition. The handler must be decisive and confident, the dog must never be allowed to reflect on a mark and then have the handler attempt to change it's mind. Nothing is more confusing to a dog than an indecisive wishy washy handler.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> That sceanario is what selection was created to deal with. It doesn't change anything for me whether the next closest gun is retired or not, other than knowing it is apt to require more concentration from the dog. But that doesn't affect the order. As Ted said, it would have to be a pretty compelling exception in circumstances to alter how we pick them up. Test like you train is a good pattern to follow, as long as you are willing to read and react to some exceptional conditions.
> 
> Evan


That is what I wanted to hear ...or read...Live or die by the method you choose..Ed put it correctly ...Thanks for the informative input...Steve S


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

EdA said:


> Not much to add as you have detailed what Rex was teaching at the time. My first introduction to primary or first bird selection was via some Rex clients who were quite successful on our circuit beginning in the 70s, specifically Don and Marion Weiss and Judy Weikel.
> 
> The technique was developed by Rex to make the short retired mark an easier mark because of the memory time involved and also the tendency of dogs not to go short after they have just been long.
> 
> ...


well said, thanks for the insight


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I am very glad I read this thread, now the term seems to make sense for a change, somewhere I missed it over the last two years, today it was made simple. Thanks for the explanations!!! Now I know I'm a Secondary Selection type of guy!! Must be the program I chose!!


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## Paul Miramon (Oct 29, 2007)

Excellent thread! Actually, there have been several good ones lately. It's threads like this that keep me lurking. Thanks to all who contributed.


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

I marked "in a different way"
Since my emphases is on hunting, I want the dog to pick up what I want when I want, and that can easily be a half hour or more after it marked one of the falls. So primary or secondary is only part of the formula that determines selection.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I use secondary selection. Go bird 1st, shortest remaining next...

Always in training almost always in trial.

In hunt tests I am more likely to abandon secondary selection because of the influence of the marks on the blind. Also there is less variation in distance between the marks. 

For example (after picking up the go bird), the blind is under the arc of the longer remaining bird, I'd get that longer bird second then the shorter bird. I think that lessens the influence of the long mark when running the blind under the arc.

Anyone else that runs HT and FT doing this?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I would also add that the flyer is the single biggest influence on any type of selection since, unless retrieved first, it always creates a conflict with one or more marks.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

captainjack said:


> I use secondary selection. Go bird 1st, shortest remaining next...
> 
> Always in training almost always in trial.
> 
> ...


makes a lot of sense, i'd rather go away then come back so to speak, than to run a blind under the arc immediately after the mark.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Well, I had it understood for a moment!!




captainjack said:


> For example (after picking up the go bird), the blind is under the arc of the longer remaining bird, I'd get that longer bird second then the shorter bird. I think that lessens the influence of the long mark when running the blind under the arc.
> 
> Anyone else that runs HT and FT doing this?



Captain, You state "abandon secondary selection" but then state "After picking up the go bird"... , My question: Isn't anything you do after picking up the go bird "secondary"??

As in Evan's quote, after picking up last bird down, Go bird. This seems to hit a middle of the road description for Secondary and has me confused a bit.




Evan said:


> [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Primary Selection; Retrieve the closest bird first, regardless of the order thrown. Then next closest, next closest.
> Secondary Selection; Retrieve the last bird down first (regardless of location in the set up), then next closest, next closest.
> Evan




Would not secondary selection be "after picking up the Go Bird/Last bird", regardless of going long bird second, or short bird second, be secondary selction?

I hope I just confused everyone with my ignorance!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Byron Musick said:


> Well, I had it understood for a moment!!
> 
> I hope I just confused everyone with my ignorance!


Confusion results when we assume shared vocabulary, but the assumption is wrong

Ed defines selection in post 35



> Primary Selection; Retrieve the closest bird first, regardless of the order thrown. Then next closest, next closest.
> Secondary Selection; Retrieve the last bird down first (regardless of location in the set up), then next closest, next closest.


I use secondary selection as Ed does
I differ on the use of primary selection in that when I use the term, I mean
"the bird that is first retrieved is not the last bird down (also known as the go bird) but rather is a bird that the handler has selected to retrieve - regardless of length (that is, handler could select the longest if he wished)

No wonder we are all so confused
It's a Tower of Babel out there


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by captainjack
> I use secondary selection. Go bird 1st, shortest remaining next...
> 
> ...


We train Three-peats, ala RetreiversOnline, with this concept, so it is not an issue for my dog to retreive a mark and then run under the arc for a blind. Behind the gunner and off the mark are the same, we train on 3=peats for all of these.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I differ on the use of primary selection in that when I use the term, I mean
> "the bird that is first retrieved is not the last bird down (also known as the go bird) but rather is a bird that the handler has selected to retrieve - regardless of length (that is, handler could select the longest if he wished)


While it is difficult for me to envision any situation where someone would intentionally primary select a long bird I have seen it attempted, usually with disastrous results. Indeed a well known field trialer from Texas attempted such in the 6th series of the 1989 National Amateur when said handler chose a retired dead bird mark tight behind the guns for a flying rooster. Needless to say the dog eventually got the flyer after a significant hunt in no man's land.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> While it is difficult for me to envision any situation where someone would intentionally primary select a long bird I have seen it attempted, usually with disastrous results. Indeed a well known field trialer from Texas attempted such in the 6th series of the 1989 National Amateur when said handler chose a retired dead bird mark tight behind the guns for a flying rooster. Needless to say the dog eventually got the flyer after a significant hunt in no man's land.


Elsewhere members of the "point and shoot" club - or what I would deem the "Brownie" club (as in point and shoot "Brownie" camera) - have espoused that if their dog swung off the go bird flyer and focused on a long bird (which would be retired after the dog picked up the go bird flyer) they would send the dog to pick up the long bird first - in an unparalleled opportunity to beat the test. 

This, of course, would be primary selection as I use the term, but not as you use the term


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> would be primary selection as I use the term, but not as you use the term


 
That's us, handlers separated by a common language.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

EdA said:


> While it is difficult for me to envision any situation where someone would intentionally primary select a long bird I have seen it attempted, usually with disastrous results. Indeed a well known field trialer from Texas attempted such in the 6th series of the 1989 National Amateur when said handler chose a retired dead bird mark tight behind the guns for a flying rooster. Needless to say the dog eventually got the flyer after a significant hunt in no man's land.





Ted Shih said:


> Elsewhere members of the "point and shoot" club - or what I would deem the "Brownie" club (as in point and shoot "Brownie" camera) - have espoused that if their dog swung off the go bird flyer and focused on a long bird (which would be retired after the dog picked up the go bird flyer) they would send the dog to pick up the long bird first - in an unparalleled opportunity to beat the test.
> 
> This, of course, would be primary selection as I use the term, but not as you use the term


I think you guys are both making the assumptions that:

1. the go bird is the flier

2. The flier is not the long bird. 

I judged a test where a Flier was the longest bird of the test and also the 1st bird thrown. Many dogs retrieved the flier 1st no matter what bird the handler selected. ;-) 

As Ed said in another post:


EdA said:


> I would also add that the flyer is the single biggest influence on any type of selection since, unless retrieved first, it always creates a conflict with one or more marks.


Some very good jobs were put in the books by handlers that selected the long flier 1st whatever you call it.


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> I think you guys are both making the assumptions that:
> 
> 1. the go bird is the flier
> 
> ...


The controlling factor here would probably be 'which bird does the dog want first'.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Here is a quote from Jack Gwaltney's book...*" Success in multiple marks depends on keeping the dog's memory in tact until it can complete all the retrieves.." *

I believe this is the reason dogs fail ...no matter what the selection process is if the dog can remember where the birds are they will go get them... Time for a new thread I guess...How do we build memory time ..? Who wants to start it?
Steve S


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

These threads are great, but much like an ONION, keep peeling long enough and your eyes start to burn!! In a good way!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> I think you guys are both making the assumptions that:
> 
> 1. the go bird is the flier
> 
> ...


I wasn't really making any assumptions however you may have created a whole new subcategory of selection called primary flier selection....;-)

for Byron the definition is always taking the flier first regardless of the order or distance......


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

EdA said:


> I wasn't really making any assumptions however you may have created a whole new subcategory of selection called primary flier selection....;-)
> 
> for Byron the definition is always taking the flier first regardless of the order or distance......


Ed, I have heard several handlers recommend get the hot bird 2nd after the go bird....How do you feel on this ...? OR is it ignore the flier and get the next shortest bird and so on .....OR is it that cut and dried ...Have a game plan but be ready to change it in a moments notice..? Steve S


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> Ed, I have heard several handlers recommend get the hot bird 2nd after the go bird....How do you feel on this ...? OR is it ignore the flier and get the next shortest bird and so on .....OR is it that cut and dried ...Have a game plan but be ready to change it in a moments notice..? Steve S


As with most things in field trials there is not an absolute, much depends on the dog and the situation. 

Is the flier really long and the dead bird really short or are they more or less the same distance?

Does the dog lose sight of the flier guns enroute to the shorter bird or are they visible all the way? 

Is there a crosswind which might allow you to luck into the short bird even if your dog wasn't locked in on it?

Is your dog well enough trained to get a retired dead bird with a flier in the field?

Is the flier anywhere in or near the proximity of the shorter bird or is the route to that bird likely to give the dog an option?

If the flier and dead bird present a tempting conflict for the dog it takes a really experienced and well trained dog to ignore the flier in favor of a dead bird, even more so if the dead bird is retired.

Ultimately to be successful the dog has to mark the birds and the handler should adhere to training but situational alterations occur depending on conditions and success of dogs who have run before you. 

In recent years I have not been presented with these dilemmas however last fall I seduced myself and made a decision in the last series of the Open with a 2 year old to abandon what we always do in training and alter the order of retrieve. The results were a reminder that I should adhere to what I would always do in training. While the outcome may have been the same I will always wonder what if???

There is no perfect fail safe system, whatever you, as the handler do, may improve or diminish the chance for the dog's success, such are the things that make the journey so fascinating, the competition so compelling.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

To put selection in prospective from a recent trial where I judged, we had a 375 yd long bird as 1st bird down in the middle, then left retired at approx 90 yds & then hen pheasant flyer at approx 250 as last bird down, shot out of the test on the right. Good separation on the birds. Short left instructed to retire immediately after throwing (just one step to the blind), long bird retired immediately after dog picked up 1st bird regardless of which selected. Of 70+ dogs running, only one handler selected the short left bird as the go-bird, dog didn't successfully complete the test. All other handlers took the flyer as the go-bird.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks Ed ...I too feel there are far too many variables in the game to set hard and fast rules...guidelines yes...If you never show the dog a different order in training don't expect them to do it in the game...Stick with the plan you came with and hope for the best ....You share your thoughts better than most of us can so please continue to share ...Best wishes Steve S
PS : I'm still waiting for more stories of Honcho and some of the other dog you ran in the past.....


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I have pretty much always let dog choose which bird to retrieve first unless a flyer is shot and is only crippled then I want her to get to that one first.


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## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

How does this all pertain to the Rorem article in Retriever News of "Ideal Selection"? Is ideal selection based off of instances where the dog wants the flier no matter what and after the flier is retrieved then you come back with secondary selection starting with shortest bird (if it wasn't the flier, because then it would be secondary selection the whole time)?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Evan said:


> I voted "_I select in a different way_" because none of the choices really describes secondary selection, which I do with all my dogs. Last bird down first, next closest, next closest.
> 
> Evan


We train last bird down, short to long, but as I posted on the other thread, different dogs and other variables requires me to be more flexable when on the line in an actual field trial. I voted other.

John


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## Roger Perry (Nov 6, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Not looking to get into a urinating match on why you select vs why you dont...but was curious as to how most on here select...out > in, short > long..also for those that dont select...what order..last > first


With the dogs I had in the past, I could primary select with them because they did not go bonkers over flyers unless there was a short flyer. Primary selection for me worked best when flyer was a long bird.

If a station was told to stay out until the first bird was picked up then retire, that is the bird I would send my dog(s) for first because it takes one of the retired out of the picture (if there were two -- would take the only retired out if it was the only retired).

I would then send for the next shortest bird and then the longest bird.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I am not being a smart arse, I swear I really want to understand this. Are some of you saying that it is "legal", ie within the rules, to avoid the retired bird by picking it up first? I know they can't tell you what order to pick up, but surely there is something that would prevent such an obvious "work around"?? Is everyone "ok" with this?

Having said that, my group worked on primary selection yesterday. After setting it up and running it with dead birds, we did a double with a long flyer as second bird down. I was surprised how well my dog did with it, but I am sure it would be a whole 'nother deal if that flyer had been close in.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Are some of you saying that it is "legal", ie within the rules, to avoid the retired bird by picking it up first?


It's legal, it's just that most dogs won't want to do it if there is a flyer involved say at equal distance. I had a dog who would pick out a short retired in a quad first but we went for it together. Either he moved his head on it or I said easy, but he always naturally wanted that type of bird. I sure wouldn't try it just because someone else did it. When you see dogs consistently bounding up a hill and missing the short retired, it came in handy. However, he wouldn't do it for the pro since he was trained only secondary selection with her and it was a respect issue.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

2tall said:


> I am not being a smart arse, I swear I really want to understand this. Are some of you saying that it is "legal", ie within the rules, to avoid the retired bird by picking it up first? I know they can't tell you what order to pick up, but surely there is something that would prevent such an obvious "work around"?? Is everyone "ok" with this?
> 
> Having said that, my group worked on primary selection yesterday. After setting it up and running it with dead birds, we did a double with a long flyer as second bird down. I was surprised how well my dog did with it, but I am sure it would be a whole 'nother deal if that flyer had been close in.


Yes it is legal but hard to do. Most dogs have too much drive to ignore a last bird down flyer and primary select a dead bird, but I have seen a few good dogs that were diciplined enough to do it. Also every once in awhile, judges screw up and place birds and flyer in a manner where the flyer has less influence and it is easier to pull the dog off the flyer, point him at a soon to be retired check down and send. Most test I have seen it was impractical to do this. Most times it's hard enough to ignore an out of order flyer especially when the last bird down is not close or attractive.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

In order to make it less tempting to try to "beat the test' by* primary selection'' off of the last bird down**, judges will occasionaly will order the guns at the last station to be shot,( the go bird so to speak) to retire after THE FIRST BIRD is picked up. If you do not pick them up first, when you do they are retired

john

* the true meaning of the term


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## Roger Perry (Nov 6, 2003)

There are times where judges will call for the birds in a double or triple then have you run the blind first. I use the samp principle in primary select. When the last bird is down I take a step in the direction of the bird I want my dog to go after. This breaks his/her contration on the last bird down.

There have been a few times where I sent Hooker (By Hook or By Crook) for a flyer and she primary selected herself and picked up the short bird.

In one trial I was running Kate (Shadee Ladee Katee) when the last bird down was shot (the left hand flyer) she turned her head and looked out at the long retired (which the bird boys took their time retiring) and I sent her for it.The judge had to use his radio to tell the boys to hurry up and retire. But she was almost a quarter of the way to the bird by the time they retired. I sent her for the short right bird next and she then went into cover, jumped over a log, and picked up the short retired bird then front footed the flyer.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Go bird, shortest bird next, then next closest bird. So, let's say it was a triple; the set up was a short bird, middle distance bird and long bird. Middle distance bird was the go bird; would get the middle distance, then would pick up the short bird and then do the long bird last....unless, it was clear my dog was set on another bird (say the long bird); I would send her for the bird she wanted in a test. In training, I would not, I would want her to select.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

I voted 'other' I'm no FT trainer, but I started mixin' it up shortly after my dog could count to two. He goes where I send him up to three. Caveat - that's in training. We haven't got to triples in a test yet.

Great threads on this topic! I've learned a lot...me thinks. Only time will tell 

Snick


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## fetchingfloyd (Apr 18, 2010)

redleg06 said:


> ....I just watch the dogs and handlers in front of me. If they look like they know what they're doing, I just follow their lead!!!;-)


lol.....what if your dog #1...;-)


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> There are a lot of variables that come into play on when and if to select...retired or visible ...hunt test where some throwers are hidden and other marks the blinds( hides) are in plain sight...ect...I let the situation dictate and the dogs attitude on what they want next ....*I don't argue on test day *....I count on the dog ...Steve S



x2.......IMHO if you don't do it in training, trial / test day in not the place to start.....


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## WILLOW POINT (May 15, 2008)

Last bird down.. then closest... then the only bird left


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

WILLOW POINT said:


> Last bird down.. then closest... then the only bird left


Unless it is a quad


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Primary selection was invented to beat a certain type of test...a concept. That was the short middle bird. Specific procedures were designed to instill this discipline, and it appears to have burned out a fair number of dogs over the years. Generally, it's too stringent for most dogs to live with for the benefits it offers.

Evan


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Evan said:


> Primary selection was invented to beat a certain type of test...a concept. That was the short middle bird. Specific procedures were designed to instill this discipline, and it appears to have burned out a fair number of dogs over the years. Generally, it's too stringent for most dogs to live with for the benefits it offers.
> 
> Evan


I know a training group (6-8 people and a varying number of dogs) that train on this concept often. Some of these people frequent this forum. 

This group and their dogs, are now so good at primary selection (as described above) that judges who know of them will not set up tests with this concept because it's a distinct benefit to this group.

The dogs in this training group are able to primary select quite reliably with few problems or signs of burn out(that I've seen).


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

labguy said:


> I know a training group (6-8 people and a varying number of dogs) that train on this concept often. Some of these people frequent this forum.
> 
> This group and their dogs, are now so good at primary selection (as described above) that judges who know of them will not set up tests with this concept because it's a distinct benefit to this group.
> 
> The dogs in this training group are able to primary select quite reliably with few problems or signs of burn out(that I've seen).


If someone can beat my test with primary selection, more power to them. But, I typically shoot the flyer last, and I do my best to make the flyer a hard mark, so you select off the flyer at your own peril. Particularly, if the club has hen pheasants and good flyer guns.

But, watching handlers make tactical decisions on the line is part of the fun of judging.


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*Last down and then short to long for me in training. At a trial I try to watch my dog and generally they let me know which bird they want next, I have tried to talk them into a bird a couple of times and it has burned me. I also watch other handlers esp. those that are doing they test well and see what they are doing, no need re-inventing the wheel!!

Aaron*


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> If someone can beat my test with primary selection, more power to them.


Having spent a number of years in my earlier career practicing first bird selection I can assure people that no matter how much you practice it in training all bets are off in competition, particularly with a well placed tempting flier and an unnatural route to the shorter retired gun.

The dog who was consistently best at it was an NAFC with 444 All-Age points and the most intelligent retriever I have ever known. For him the task was simple for his kennel mate, an accomplished competitor in his own right, first bird selection in competition was not much more than a crap shoot.

Training for first bird selection (to be reliable) involves shooting lots of fliers in training and spending an inordinate amount of time on the concept, for me I would much prefer to spend that time on marking tests of all types with a very good marking dog. 

Just as Rex did, most first bird selectors abandoned it years ago.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

labguy said:


> I know a training group (6-8 people and a varying number of dogs) that train on this concept often. Some of these people frequent this forum.
> 
> This group and their dogs, are now so good at primary selection (as described above) that judges who know of them will not set up tests with this concept because it's a distinct benefit to this group.
> 
> The dogs in this training group are able to primary select quite reliably with few problems or signs of burn out(that I've seen).


I hope that's so. The burn out occured as a result of a set of procedures few, if any now use. It was effective, and produced many national winners. It also produced some dogs that were done with the game far too young. I hope your friends have come up with a solid means of making that skill as reliable without the side effects. 

If they have, good for them. I hope they're smart about its application. A lot of smart judges like Ted will be setting up tests without any fear of selection. If your handling strategies help beat the test, more power to you.

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Way back at the beggining of the thread, I voted "let the dog decide".

After re reading this thread, I really didnt mean that. 

I send the dog for the Go bird, (which She usually wants) THEN I let her decide what bird next.

This is usually outside, outside.

What is this called?

I will say however, that I have run HT's where the judges dictated order, and I was required to "No" off a go bird.

I didnt realise it at the time, but i guess I trained for primary selection!
Is THAT correct?

Gooser


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

What you have described as normal for your work is much like secondary selection; last bird down, then next closest, next closest. Your "outside, outside" only works if the Go bird is in the middle, but I understand what you're saying. (Why does that worry me a little? )

In AKC trials the judge can only dictate the order of retrieval in handling tests; marks with blinds. I don't know how common that is anymore, but they used to do it fairly often.

Primary selection is closest bird first regardless of what the throwing order was, then next closest. Many sort of train at this, but few really train primary selection as it was created. So much the better for most.

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Evan!

Yes!!
My outside,, outside comment pertained to if the GO bird was an outside mark, when my older dog returns from that,, She will pretty reliably want the other outside bird, picking center up last.

Dont worry about the abnormality of Understanding Gooser!!

It will pass!:razz: (i gauuurunteeee!)

Gooser


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

When I started training and running dogs in hunt test in the early 90s, the mantra was you had to impose your will over your dog and make him or her pick the birds up in the order you dictate. The reality was that it was a pretty straight forward issue in hunt test and 90% of guys would pick a certain tripple up the same way, and withh the longest mark within 100 yards, there wasn't much opportunity for judges to set up an extreme push-pull test.

I carried that same attitude over into my field trial training, that being the idea that I'm the leader and my dog has to do what I saw, including picking birds up as I dictate. Then running in the advanced stakes I realized the biggest issue for a handler is determining what the best order is, not that easy sometimes. Like Ted and others have said, it is the most challenging decision a handler has to make. On a real tough test with a lot of failures, you'll see guys start out by doing or not doing what the test dog did, depending on how well it worked out for him. If it was bad, the early handlers run it the way they would in training, then if that isn't working, the guessing begins.

Like I said on previous post, I have a dog who if he comes back and lines himself up, ears up, I'd better take it, because if I try to change his mind he ends up lost in no-mans-land. On the other hand I need to assert myself with my two young dogs and pick the birds up in the way I think will have the best chance of success. I personally never primary select, I have strong enough markers that I will take my chance on letting my dogs mark them straight up. I'd rather get that flyer out of the way and trust my dog to dig out that tough retired bird.

John


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Evan!
> 
> Yes!!
> My outside,, outside comment pertained to if the GO bird was an outside mark, when my older dog returns from that,, She will pretty reliably want the other outside bird, picking center up last.
> ...


 
He's correct, Evan...as Ed can confirm, and I suspect Ted has recently discovered as well...It IS an abnormality if you are understanding MG.


As you have by now surmised, MG, the vast majority of posters to this thread are of the AKC persuasion, and wouldn't be familier with the HRC judges authority of pick-up selection during a marking test.

First off, owner/trainers must realize the HRC motto is "conceived by hunters for hunters". Subsequently, they do not have a 'trialing' program as AKC does. Also, as you might expect, the majority of the 'regulations' developed for the AKC hunt testing program were based on their trialing 'rules'. (whatever you do, do NOT get those two mixed up, or Keith G. will remove your goosing abilities)

So most posters to this thread are basically unaware of the regulation HRC judges can call for in a 'finished level' hunt test (which doesn't allow quads, BTW)...that being a form of "primary" selection...in other words, designating the order the handler must have his retriever pick up the birds.

While the HRC "Rules and Guidelines" booklet doesn't indicate how many birds a judge can require the handler to pick up in a particular order, over the 20+ years I've played and judged these games, I've never seen any more than the initial retrieve to be designated, or 'selected'. It's considered a tool the "finished" hunting retriever should have been trained for, as it has merit in hunting situations, to which I can attest to in more than a few occassions.

Subsequently, the well trained HRC finished retriever is expected to be able to "Primary Select" at the whim of it's trainer, whether in an actual hunting situation, or at an HRC hunt test...which as you know, are all set up to be as realistic a hunting situation as is feasible, in accordance with all safety precautions.

IMHBFWDAO, training your 'hunting retriever' to be able to select isn't much more than teaching the dog to go where sent...primarily, secondarily, or wheneverly...

UB


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