# Am trained, owned, and handled AFC



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

A post on another thread stated and I paraphrase an amateur with time resources etc was to be more feared than a pro trained dog handled by his owner. Just curious how many and who are they that would fit into that category. The late Howard Niemi comes to mind but who else?

Let me make this clearer a dog totally trained and handled by an amateur.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

I donno about that. I think Tia, Gracie, Ali, & Holland all do okay. Slider does pretty decent too.


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## jerrod denton (Jul 17, 2010)

Andy whitely


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I donno about that. I think Tia, Gracie, Ali, & Holland all do okay. Slider does pretty decent too.


So none of them are pro trained? Not being adversarial just curious Jacob. Just to make it clear I am not involved in field trials at all and have very little knowledge of them.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

AFC Special Touchs Satchacrazy BaileyMae MH *** Pretty certain Bailey has never spent any time with a pro, yes Wayne has trained with many but who hasn't.. A great example of a very talented dog and a hard working dedicated owner...


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

duk4me said:


> So none of them are pro trained? Not being adversarial just curious Jacob. Just to make it clear I am not involved in field trials at all and have very little knowledge of them.


All are either pro trained or train with a pro. Saying that concept isn't true. Those dogs with their owners are awfully tough.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Newt Cropper, Rex Bell, Bart Clark, Pete Plourde just a few feared by pros


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> All are either pro trained or train with a pro. Saying that concept isn't true. Those dogs with their owners are awfully tough.


In this example the concept is true because those particular owners have there hands on there dogs on a daily basis, and there very good handlers. Now the owner that is waiting in the parking lot to grab his dog who he hasn't touched since last Saturday, probably isn't much to worry about on a regular basis.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Todd Caswell said:


> In this example the concept is true because those particular owners have there hands on there dogs on a daily basis, and there very good handlers. Now the owner that is waiting in the parking lot to grab his dog who he hasn't touched since last Saturday, probably isn't much to worry about on a regular basis.


Pretty much what I meant. I did not exclude those who may have used a pro to do basics or whatever, was not referring exclusively to those who completely train their own dogs from day one. The amateur who trains day in and day out with their dogs, travels with the seasons, has access to training grounds year round, has learned the skills to handle their dogs to Nationals, those are usually more of a threat on the weekend than the owner who is lucky if they get to train with the pro once a week, who trains around their work schedule, who doesn't see their dog for 5-6 months over the winter maybe, who are flying by the seat of their pants trying to learn as they go and as they can afford it. Some people seem to think it is just that easy, that anyone can just pull a dog off the pro truck, walk to the line in an Amateur and win. It happens, but not as often or the way some people seem to think it does. It is a tough game, you have to know how to handle a dog and have the dog that will work with you. It doesn't matter if Danny Farmer or Mike Lardy trained the dog, the handler has to know something too. These aren't robots you just push buttons on. Nor does cutting the check mean you know what the heck you are doing at the line. Which is what makes every accomplishment all the sweeter, if you and your dog are still there at the end of the 4th, with those at the top of the game. If you don't get that, then you don't get FT.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Pretty much what I meant. I did not exclude those who may have used a pro to do basics or whatever, was not referring exclusively to those who completely train their own dogs from day one. The amateur who trains day in and day out with their dogs, travels with the seasons, has access to training grounds year round, has learned the skills to handle their dogs to Nationals, those are usually more of a threat on the weekend than the owner who is lucky if they get to train with the pro once a week, who trains around their work schedule, who doesn't see their dog for 5-6 months over the winter maybe, who are flying by the seat of their pants trying to learn as they go and as they can afford it. Some people seem to think it is just that easy, that anyone can just pull a dog off the pro truck, walk to the line in an Amateur and win. It happens, but not as often or the way some people seem to think it does. It is a tough game, you have to know how to handle a dog and have the dog that will work with you. It doesn't matter if Danny Farmer or Mike Lardy trained the dog, the handler has to know something too. These aren't robots you just push buttons on. Nor does cutting the check mean you know what the heck you are doing at the line. Which is what makes every accomplishment all the sweeter, if you and your dog are still there at the end of the 4th, with those at the top of the game. If you don't get that, then you don't get FT.


I just asked who are they Kim. don't bring the other thread to this one please.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

duk4me said:


> I just asked who are they Kim. don't bring the other thread to this one please.


I'll post a response to others as I choose.


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## Gunners Up (Jul 29, 2004)

In our local training group (Tulsa) James Roberts with FC AFC Dance Hall Gal and Snake Charmer III (Qualified for Nat. Am) and Paul Rainbolt with AFC RockErin's Riverdance. 100% amateur trained and handled.

RD


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Lenn Ferrucci and Roy Mcfall both had lots of owner handler breeder fc's that they trained purely. They also had dogs with pro's along the way as well.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Gunners Up said:


> In our local training group (Tulsa) James Roberts with FC AFC Dance Hall Gal and Snake Charmer III (Qualified for Nat. Am) and Paul Rainbolt with AFC RockErin's Riverdance. 100% amateur trained and handled.
> 
> RD


Thank you.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> I'll post a response to others as I choose.


Yes dear. Can I buy a faucet from you?


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## dogguy438 (Nov 24, 2009)

Thom Felinsky, has never had any of his dogs with a pro. He has an FC AFC right now. He has had a couple of dogs with the points just needing the win and won"t give it to a pro to try and finish. Also most Ams have one or two dogs they are trainning while most pros at least 8-12 dogs or more. You can give more time to one dog than twelve. Thats why guys like Thom can be more dangerous than a pro. Thom had two bird boys back in the 80s that went on to be well known pros.Pat Burns was one of them.Thom also trains 364 days a year do you know any pros that do


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

I believe roux was trained by frank price as an am.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks for the replies and please keep them coming. People that do it all on their own need to be recognized. It just could help someone realize they have a chance to compete without hiring it done and yes I have used professional trainers myself.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

JTS said:


> I believe you will find that the list is much longer than you suspected.....
> 
> So to play along ..........................how about
> 
> Bill P. and FC AFC CFC CAFC AMMO. Top all age dog so far this year in 2014 as well...............


I hope you are right. That is the purpose of this thread.


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## CindyGal (Mar 6, 2012)

I can only hope to achieve what other great amateurs have accomished. Starting my journey with my 1st FT dog. Love training and trialing as a true team with my beloved friend. Amateur advantage!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Ed Krueger trains a lot with a pro, but no one has ever handled FC AFC Bob and Ed's Excellent Adventure but Ed. In training or competition...


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

First many who I would consider 100% amateur trained, probably spent a day here or there day training with a pro, not to get any training advise, but for the convenience of the set up and grounds. That said, just off the top of my head Bill Petrovich, Larry and Anna Calvert, Florence Stone, John Pampy and Barbara Furlano, Tom Hartl, and Don Grenseman are amateurs that I believe would meet your criteria.

John


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

FC AFC Tealcreek Patton's Saber -- owner bred, trained, and handled by Chris Hatch, 100% amateur. National Amateur Finalist. 2013 Top Amateur Dog of the Year. All titles put on by Chris.

AFC Flyway's Long Tall Sally - owner bred, trained, and handled by Don Graves, 100% amateur. Going to this year's National Amateur. Don and Chris are training partners.

FC AFC Flyway's Ruby B. Gonia did have some pro training for a few months when she was a youngster. She came home. Don resumed her training 100% and handled her to all her titles and to being a National Am Finalist. She is Sally's mother.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

jhnnythndr said:


> Lenn Ferrucci and *Roy Mcfall *both had lots of owner handler breeder fc's that they trained purely. They also had dogs with pro's along the way as well.


If Mr McFall ever used a pro thats news to me and Clint..He treated my brother like his son, he was the last person to speak with him the night that he passed away..Your info must be incorrect...


Arnie and Linda Erwin train and handle their own dogs, been doing it since the early '70s


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

How about Ken Neil


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> In this example the concept is true because those particular owners have there hands on there dogs on a daily basis, and there very good handlers. Now the owner that is waiting in the parking lot to grab his dog who he hasn't touched since last Saturday, probably isn't much to worry about on a regular basis.


I didn't read the other thread, but I took the original post as purely AM trained. Yes, the owners of the dogs I mentioned are obviously good handlers & do get to train a lot more than other people. That said, Larry Anderson has a nice yellow male (Gator.) that I think he's done all the training on.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Jimmy Darnell, 3 FC AFC before he turned pro. Jim Pickering & Willie, 51 derby points, double header winner, Nat Am Finalist last year. Don't know how many of his goldens he titled or if he ever used a pro with them.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

BonMallari said:


> If Mr McFall ever used a pro thats news to me and Clint..He treated my brother like his son, he was the last person to speak with him the night that he passed away..Your info must be incorrect...
> 
> 
> Arnie and Linda Erwin train and handle their own dogs, been doing it since the early '70s







Sorry Bon, Roy may well have never even had a pro buckle a collar for him- but if I said he never used a pro- someone will come on and say "well, I saw baron airing dicey and piper one time"

Or something equally obnoxious...


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

And it's interesting how the majority, if not all of those listed so far aren't concerned about whether or not the competition's dog has been Pro trained on not.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

FOM said:


> And it's interesting how the majority, if not all of those listed so far aren't concerned about whether or not the competition's dog has been Pro trained on not.


Ain't that the truth. Maybe if some started participating in FT, they'd find the reality vs the myths perpetuated from the keyboards. I got my eyes opened and started having fun again running my dogs in minor stakes, after I finally got over all the BS and tried for myself. The main thing holding people back from success in any venue, is themselves.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

golfandhunter said:


> How about Ken Neil


No. He has sent the dogs to pros and day trained with Pros. the last 2 years he has train a lot more on his own, but it is still not exclusive.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

My training buddy and mentor Jim Mitchell brought a dog from puppyhood to FC-AFC without ever spending a day with a pro. Jim is a working guy with three young boys who did it all after work, during lunch and on weekends. We had a great small training group. Unfortunately for us, Jim retired Ranger at six with close to 40 all age points to spend more time with his boys.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Dr Paul and Sally Foster come to mind. Mel Milton is another very good amateur. Jack Vollstedt another.However I agree with Lainee in regard to who cares. It's the results that matter. Being relatively new in the trial game I have seen how tough it is to even get through the first series. There are very few that have done it all on their own without a pro at some time. The amateurs consistently winning ,whether pro trained dogs or not, are to be commended for their abilities to read the dog and run them.

Jeff


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Another great that was feared and respected by many on our circuit was Bill Glen and FC-AFC Mioaks Smoke'n Zeke. Bill would show up at a field trial with Zeke in the front seat of his pick up. Bill was a tennis shoe trainer, no e-collar. Two double headers, 1994 Amateur National finalist and near 70 points before Zeke tragically died at age six. Definitely a once in a lifetime dog.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Sharon and Hal Geirman do pretty well as does Lance Brown. Dan Hurst did all of Bullets training until bullet was sold to kippy. Yes a good amature/dog team is a force to be reckond with.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

MikeBoley said:


> Sharon and Hal Geirman do pretty well as does Lance Brown. Dan Hurst did all of Bullets training until bullet was sold to kippy. Yes a good amature/dog team is a force to be reckond with.


Lanse has used pros, the "purists" would exclude him from the list. ;-)


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Already mentioned but Andy Whiteley has two FC AFC Goldens keeping the furniture and floor warm at his house, entirely home schooled.
Then there is Valarie Marks with the late great AFC Catcher. Andy and Val both have real jobs. I'm in awe of them.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> No. He has sent the dogs to pros and day trained with Pros. the last 2 years he has train a lot more on his own, but it is still not exclusive.


Thanks Susan, I have been informed by you and others.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

What about that training group in the north DFW area? They have some awfully special dogs.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> I'll post a response to others as I choose.


Mycena aurantiomarginata, commonly known as the golden-edge bonnet, is a species of agaric fungus in the family Mycenaceae. First formally described in 1803, it was given its current name in 1872. Widely distributed, it is common in Europe and North America, and has also been collected in North Africa, Central America, and Japan. The fungus is saprobic, and produces fruit bodies (mushrooms) that grow on the floor of coniferous forests. The mushrooms have a bell-shaped to conical cap up to 2 cm (0.8 in) in diameter, set atop a slender stipe up to 6 cm (2.4 in) long with yellow to orange hairs at the base. The fungus is named after its characteristic bright orange gill edges. A microscopic characteristic is the club-shaped cystidia that are covered with numerous spiky projections, resembling a mace. The edibility of the mushroom has not been determined. M. aurantiomarginata can be distinguished from similar Mycena species by differences in size, color, and substrate. A 2010 publication reported the discovery and characterization of a novel pigment named mycenaaurin A, isolated from the mushroom. The pigment is responsible for its color, and it has antibiotic activity that may function to prevent certain bacteria from growing on the mushroom.


/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I sure hope the people in this thread are "smart" enough to realize if their candidate watched a video then the dog was pro trained.


/Paul


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

John Gianlandis and FC-AFC Gypsy


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Tim, Do you run hunt tests or field trials?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Tim, Do you run hunt tests or field trials?


Nope ran a few hrc test years ago and had a dog that didn't cut it in the derbies with a pro at one time. To much drama with the clubs for me.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Had a few of them. Dick Dallesassee (the whistle guy ) has made 7 of them, working on number 8 and 9 now at almost 77 years old. Don't know what that all means as you still have to become a all-age handler!
Many don't realize you don't walk up to the line in a open or a amateur, plug in the remote and the dog runs itself, be you amateur or pro, just saying, been there many, many times. It ,looks so "easy" when you walk to the line to the untrained eye.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

/Paul, Is that Timothy's mushroom?


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I sure hope the people in this thread are "smart" enough to realize if their candidate watched a video then the dog was pro trained.
> 
> 
> /Paul


I could watch videos from now until eternity but that won't make me Mike Lardy...........


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## SteelGirl_1187 (Sep 28, 2005)

I think it's a tough distinction. Dan H., Bill P., Lanse, James Roberts, me, . . . a few of the others mentioned have all at some point benefited from the advice of a pro. Whether it's phone calls, day training, or relying on them for their help, equipment, and expertise at a National, they've played at least a small role. I would call my dog "amateur trained" because he's never been on a pro's truck. But Slider's owner/handler/trainer sure needed a lot of critiquing from a good pro!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

SteelGirl_1187 said:


> I think it's a tough distinction. Dan H., Bill P., Lanse, James Roberts, me, . . . a few of the others mentioned have all at some point benefited from the advice of a pro. Whether it's phone calls, day training, or relying on them for their help, equipment, and expertise at a National, they've played at least a small role. I would call my dog "amateur trained" because he's never been on a pro's truck. But Slider's owner/handler/trainer sure needed a lot of critiquing from a good pro!


Your list is small, recent, and regional while ignoring some very successful amateurs. There are amateurs still active who were training field champions before you were born. One needs to look no further than recent RHOF inductee Ray Goodrich! Field trial people tend to view the sport in terms of their own tenure. The history of retriever field trials is resplendent with great and successful amateurs whose accomplishments will endure long after the current list of characters has vanished.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

EdA said:


> Your list is small, recent, and regional while ignoring some very successful amateurs. There are amateurs still active who were training field champions before you were born. One needs to look no further than recent RHOF inductee Ray Goodrich! Field trial people tend to view the sport in terms of their own tenure. The history of retriever field trials is resplendent with great and successful amateurs whose accomplishments will endure long after the current list of characters has vanished.


Ed do you have a wisdom tooth that needs pulled? You sure have been cranky lately. Sure she mentioned her peers in the sport. So do you... The crew Lauren mentioned are all holding their own regardless of how long they have been in the game or how long they stay. 

The sport is also resplendent with cranky old goats that can't seem to recognize talent when they see it.


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## Richard Davis (Feb 9, 2011)

Dennis Voigt from Canada that publishes Retrievers Online is a very successful amateur.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

The late Bob Larsen had at least 2 FA AFC dogs.

Dawn


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## Jamee Strange (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dennis Bath? His dogs are now and have been for the last several, completely amateur trained and he has made several FC/AFCs. He has 2 young ones right now that are up and coming to be watched and even feared at a trial (sure I am partial, but others have said it as well). I think all of the people mentioned are impressive and should be commended. I am still working on it, but I know it takes ALOT of time and dedication to get a dog to that level. Kudos to you all


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

The list is a short one. Barry Cruickshank in Colorado comes to mind. If you go to most trials you will about 5% of the dogs entered are train by their owners. And wonder why there isn't any help at events? The reasons to name a few the hyper competitive nature of the game, *obsessiveness* (no it's not addiction)to win, and frankly most can't train a dog at this level. The few that can mostly are retired and have the time.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I donno about that. I think Tia, Gracie, Ali, & Holland all do okay. Slider does pretty decent too.


I don't believe that all of these animals fit the op requirements.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

I was disputing the part about Am trained are more feared than Ams running their dog that a pro has his hands in.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Jamee Strange said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dennis Bath? His dogs are now and have been for the last several, completely amateur trained and he has made several FC/AFCs. He has 2 young ones right now that are up and coming to be watched and even feared at a trial (sure I am partial, but others have said it as well). I think all of the people mentioned are impressive and should be commended. I am still working on it, but I know it takes ALOT of time and dedication to get a dog to that level. Kudos to you all


Eddie or Pete? Pete or Eddie? 

I like them both! 

I also like that little male you had that's a son of one of them - Eddie or Pete...Pete or Eddie.

- Chris


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## LGH (Oct 20, 2013)

What about the Russells?


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## Richard Davis (Feb 9, 2011)

Al McKean BC Canada has been a very successful amateur in US & Canadian FT


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

For the "old goats" who still frequent RTF , we must realize as the past poll of RTF readers suggested , most here have not or will not run FTs. They are new to the sport compared to the" goats" and live vicariously thru the bloodlines and achievements of FT dogs and their handlers/owners irrespective of who trained them. An old "goat" who will be going out on 8 September for early jump and pass goose hunting with his FT labs.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

moscowitz said:


> Newt Cropper, Rex Bell, Bart Clark, Pete Plourde just a few feared by pros


Mark Mosher had Rev, Bill Thompson had Frenchy & Gennie, Pretty sure Bart Clark and Newt Cropper have trained with and used pro's. Not pure amateurs, but close. The only pure Amateurs I personally know of, at the moment, are Mimi and Frank Kearney. They have 3 littermates, all QAA and under 3. That's a huge accomplishment.
Walt


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

swliszka said:


> For the "old goats" who still frequent RTF , we must realize as the past poll of RTF readers suggested , most here have not or will not run FTs. They are new to the sport compared to the" goats" and live vicariously thru the bloodlines and achievements of FT dogs and their handlers/owners irrespective of who trained them.


Isn't that the truth. Most of them don't even check in anymore because of the foolish and disrespectful posts of those that pontificate how things should be.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Isn't that the truth. Most of them don't even check in anymore because of the foolish and disrespectful posts of those that pontificate how things should be.



Sometimes you just need a "like" button.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

EdA said:


> Your list is small, recent, and regional while ignoring some very successful amateurs. There are amateurs still active who were training field champions before you were born. One needs to look no further than recent RHOF inductee Ray Goodrich! Field trial people tend to view the sport in terms of their own tenure. The history of retriever field trials is resplendent with great and successful amateurs whose accomplishments will endure long after the current list of characters has vanished.


I get what Ed is saying here. How about the late Jock MacLean, with Lean Mac, and Sam Milton with Ford? I believe they were/are amateurs.


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## 3 black dogs (Jan 31, 2005)

Connie Swanson on both sides of the boarder. She can win on any given weekend with any of her dogs.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

I know it isn't as common as it used to be, but there are still amateurs in every circuit that are very successful at the top level while training their own dogs. 

I did it myself starting with my first dog AFC Mr. Tanner's Pioneer Preacher back in the day (who I also trained without a collar). 

I am working on it again with my comeback dogs now. I really don't care if the competition is pro trained or am trained or handled... I just want to do it myself with my dogs. 

I think everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do and how they do it and more power to them.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Heck a year old thread I started resurrected. I have to tell my puppy.......er kitty.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Heck a year old thread I started resurrected. I have to tell my puppy.......er kitty.


Hahaha!!!!!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The Calverts and the FC AFC Jazztime dogs come to mind


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## Rhett Riddle (May 16, 2006)

Delma Hazzard


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

Lee Jolley and Canaille are a pretty formidable pair every weekend.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

doesnt any dog trained by Bill shrader follow under the umbrella of amateur trained? they are amateurs and dont send their dogs to anyone.
what about the Russelss and Robbie Bickley? ed can probably answer that.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Really it's not about Pro or Am, but rather:

Your dedication
Your Knowledge
Your facility
Your help
Your life line
Your spouse
Your wallet
*and especially your dog*


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Terry Marshall said:


> Really it's not about Pro or Am, but rather:
> 
> Your dedication
> Your Knowledge
> ...


I wish we had "like" buttons...


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