# Automatic HT Fail: Dog touches me when returning to heel?



## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

I have two dogs who sometimes are overly excited. Both will occasionally leap into the air and spin around when coming back to heel. When they spin in the air, they sometimes miscalculate distance and will touch me while coming down or when sitting.

The HT rules in AKC say the handler can't touch the dog before taking the bird. Would it be an automatic fail if a dog does his leap and air spin and touches me on the way down before I take the bird?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

IMHO No.....


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

better not be


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

J. Marti said:


> The HT rules in AKC say the handler can't touch the dog before taking the bird.


It is amusing to me that the rule book does not actually say that. Although people, including judges, do commonly instruct us that touching your dog is against the rules. Many want us to believe that touching at any time while under judgement is grounds for disqualifucation.

Here is what the rulebook actually does say:



> Section 11. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady,
> or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary
> circumstances, from the time the first bird is being
> thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any
> ...


The rule, as stated, is specific to the case of touching in order to keep steady. It even specifies that this is applicable to the period of time between calling for birds and judges' release of dog to be sent by handler. In other words, during the time period when dog is required to be steady. Touching is not addressed by rulebook during other times or situations.

One of many examples where conventional beliefs are more applicable than what the rulebook actually says.

Jim


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## Gold Strike Labradors (Jan 8, 2014)

my understanding that "touching" would be the handler using their hand/hands to restrain the dog before dog's delivery to hand. In JHT the dog is allowed to run with a flat collar around its neck. In which case, the handler holding onto the collar or dogs' neck scruff, ear, muzzle before delivery to hand is sufficient cause for a grade of "0" in trainability. If I were dq'd for each time my dog bumped/touched me on the return to heel, I would have made several 'donations' to the host retriever club.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

T Pines in with the real knowledge. 

To also answer your question using your off the rule book quote. Your dog touched you, you did not touch it, big difference.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Just put your hands in the air and say " I'm not touching her, she's touching me" over and over again. HRC uses buckets, AKC usually doesn't. The bucket puts you at a level for dogs to take advantage. Mine tend to want to crawl in my lap until the birds start going off. They always want to have their head under my arm, especially on Honor. I've had my male, rest his head on my shoulder to see a bird with a rather large swing; that my body was blocking. Never been thrown out for the dog touching me. Otherwise I'd always be out .


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

J. Marti said:


> I have two dogs who sometimes are overly excited. Both will occasionally leap into the air and spin around when coming back to heel. When they spin in the air, they sometimes miscalculate distance and will touch me while coming down or when sitting.



The dog touching the handler is not a DQ however if the dog is "overly excited....leap into the air and spin around when coming back to heel. When they spin in the air, they sometimes miscalculate distance" and the "touch" is extreme that may be a DQ depending on the judge. These may be seen as signs of a dog that is NOT under the control of the handler and CAN result in a 0 score in trainability. In short, a simple brushing or rubbing your leg is ok, but if the dog hits you with enough force to cause you to change your position, stumble, etc, that is not ok. Also if the jumping and spinning causes a commotion on the line that is also not ok. All of this is a judges call and some judges will score it differently than others. It is dependent on the severity/disruption of the action and on what level you are running; more acceptable in the junior stake than at the master level.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Thank you, so much, for this post. I have heard time and time again to NOT touch the dog before I take the bird out of the mouth!! 

So, hypothetical here: after my dog comes back with the first bird, can I touch his side or muzzle or touch his toes with my toes to line him up better for the next bird? 




T-Pines said:


> It is amusing to me that the rule book does not actually say that. Although people, including judges, do commonly instruct us that touching your dog is against the rules. Many want us to believe that touching at any time while under judgement is grounds for disqualifucation.
> 
> Here is what the rulebook actually does say:
> 
> ...


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Thank you. 

I don't really know how to train this out. These two dogs just get a huge joy about bringing the bird back and they leap in joy. I don't really like it but I don't know how to train this out. 

Any suggestions to train this out without dampening the enthusiasm of the dogs would be greatly appreciated.



T. Mac said:


> The dog touching the handler is not a DQ however if the dog is "overly excited....leap into the air and spin around when coming back to heel. When they spin in the air, they sometimes miscalculate distance" and the "touch" is extreme that may be a DQ depending on the judge. These may be seen as signs of a dog that is NOT under the control of the handler and CAN result in a 0 score in trainability. In short, a simple brushing or rubbing your leg is ok, but if the dog hits you with enough force to cause you to change your position, stumble, etc, that is not ok. Also if the jumping and spinning causes a commotion on the line that is also not ok. All of this is a judges call and some judges will score it differently than others. It is dependent on the severity/disruption of the action and on what level you are running; more acceptable in the junior stake than at the master level.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Front delivery. There is no rule that says the dog must deliver at heel.

Perhaps in your mind, you think teaching a gentler return to heel would dampen their enthusiasm. I don't think it would in their minds? (Taught, not forced into submission)


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

J. Marti said:


> Thank you, so much, for this post. I have heard time and time again to NOT touch the dog before I take the bird out of the mouth!!
> 
> So, hypothetical here: after my dog comes back with the first bird, can I touch his side or muzzle or touch his toes with my toes to line him up better for the next bird?


My previous post cited a section of the rulebook where touching the dog is explicitly addressed. I did not intend to imply that touching the dog in ALL other situations is appropriate. The rules do provide guidance about other situations where touch may be interpreted as falling under another infraction. 

For example, under threatening gestures (to steady or control), a handler might touch the dog in a manner that the judge considers to be threatening. This is subject to judgement and is not allowed under the rules.

Under delivery requirements, the rules provide guidelines for "direct delivery", "delivered tenderly", "delivered willingly". I think, appropriately, there is room for subjectivity by the judges as to what meets or does not meet the requirements for proper delivery. It is reasonable that a handler should be expected to take delivery of the bird without the need to touch the dog. If you do touch the dog in connection with taking delivery, you are subjecting your work to the judges' interpretation of your intent in touching the dog and the dog's perception of the touch as it relates to a threatening gesture to control; or as it relates to a maneuver to compensate for deficient training. Likewise, touching a muzzle or stepping on toes is extremely likely to draw attention to question the need for these actions as it relates to control and can reasonably be interpreted by judge to be a threatening gesture (associated with correction/training).

See TMac's post. He addresses these topics in the sense of control (trainability) and what is considered to be safe and appropriate on and around the line. The rules provide guidelines for what is appropriate in a hunting situation and the rules allow for the judges to make reasonable subjective judgements.

My interest in this topic is driven by the commonly held belief that "You can never touch your dog (absolute)". We all need to be aware of what the actual rules are and the various ways that the rules are reasonably interpreted and applied. In my view, handlers needlessly refrain from touching their dogs in a joyful expression of affectionate touch and praise for an excellent performance. We also feel the need to ask permission to remove foreign objects from our dog's face or eyes. This may not be important to some, but it is unfortunate. Let's keep the joy and the fun and the touch that expresses this joy and fun in the game.

Many years ago in my first senior test, I was strongly chastised by the judge for touching my dog. My dog had returned from the memory mark and delivered the bird. There was not a holding blind set up to shield the dog from seeing the blind being planted, so handlers were instructed to block the dogs view while the blind was being planted. My dog moved her head as if to try to look around me, so I reacted by gently holding her head against my leg, shielding her eyes. The judge scolded me and let me know that I could be disqualified for such action. I was simply trying to make sure that I would run an honest blind that my dog did not see planted in the field.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

J. Marti said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I don't really know how to train this out. These two dogs just get a huge joy about bringing the bird back and they leap in joy. I don't really like it but I don't know how to train this out.
> 
> Any suggestions to train this out without dampening the enthusiasm of the dogs would be greatly appreciated.


You should not "train it out". Lots of dogs jump and spin into heel and bump the handler. It shows enthusiasm and style, both positive traits. Most of the time I see dogs do it in anticipation of being sent to the next mark, also a good thing.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Its been a long long time ago ,,but there was a thread here, were a person showed pictures of his golden that stood up on its hind legs, and clutched the handlers arm watching,,as the marks went down.. If my memory serves me right (never does) it was a HT dog..

I used the search function .and searched quite awhile today,but coulnt find it..


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Its been a long long time ago ,,but there was a thread here, were a person showed pictures of his golden that stood up on its hind legs, and clutched the handlers arm watching,,as the marks went down.. If my memory serves me right (never does) it was a HT dog..
> 
> I used the search function .and searched quite awhile today,but coulnt find it..


If this was true, and I have no reason not to believe you, how in hell could one hunt safely with such a dog? I would have to fail that type of performance if it happened in a HT of any venue I was judging, or any FT, for that matter. -Paul


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I see no reason why a dog should be jacked up so much they slam into their handler on return. IMO dogs running into handlers has zero to do with enthusiasm and lots to do with respecting the leader at the line. Dogs are not stupid. They know where their body is in relation to a human. They also know how to control their movements if needed. 

There are different levels of 'dog touching handler' - a dog who, upon hearing the 'here' command who moves in close to the handler's leg is not committing a 'trainability' infraction and obviously should not be scored lower or dq'ed .... A dog who runs back full throttle, jumps/spins/runs into handler enough to force the handler to move their foot or feet or need to work to stay balanced is a danger in a hunting situation and should be scored lower in the 'trainability' department... perhaps an outright zero, if the infraction were severe enough..


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Tobias said:


> I see no reason why a dog should be jacked up so much they slam into their handler on return. IMO dogs running into handlers has zero to do with enthusiasm and lots to do with respecting the leader at the line. Dogs are not stupid. They know where their body is in relation to a human. They also know how to control their movements if needed.
> 
> There are different levels of 'dog touching handler' - a dog who, upon hearing the 'here' command who moves in close to the handler's leg is not committing a 'trainability' infraction and obviously should not be scored lower or dq'ed .... A dog who runs back full throttle, jumps/spins/runs into handler enough to force the handler to move their foot or feet or need to work to stay balanced is a danger in a hunting situation and should be scored lower in the 'trainability' department... perhaps an outright zero, if the infraction were severe enough..


If we were talking about a dog habitually and forcefully ramming into the handler I would agree. That isn't how I interpreted the OP's question;


> I have two dogs who sometimes are overly excited. Both will occasionally leap into the air and spin around when coming back to heel. _When they spin in the air,they sometimes miscalculate distance and will touch me while coming down or when sitting._
> 
> The HT rules in AKC say the handler can't touch the dog before taking the bird. _Would it be an automatic fail if a dog does his leap and air spin and touches me on the way down before I take the bird?_


To me, this is sounds like a dog that can't wait to get back with a bird and get lined up for another retrieve. Exactly what I want. 
The most experienced trainers I know all seem to agree that too much discipline at the line is detrimental to marking. Of course opinions on how much is too much varies widely.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

J. Marti said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I don't really know how to train this out. These two dogs just get a huge joy about bringing the bird back and they leap in joy. I don't really like it but I don't know how to train this out.
> 
> *Any suggestions to train this out without dampening the enthusiasm of the dogs would be greatly appreciated*.


Indicate by arm gesture which side you want him to heel / return on and when he is near you, open up by pivoting on that side so he cannot make contact with you, but rather comes in along side you in some form or fashion. My Birthday Boy did that for a while and it was pretty easy to fix.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

drunkenpoacher said:


> You should not "train it out". Lots of dogs jump and spin into heel and bump the handler. It shows enthusiasm and style, both positive traits. Most of the time I see dogs do it in anticipation of being sent to the next mark, also a
> good thing.


Mine has almost taken out my knees on the way back with her flyer on more than one occasion.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

My son was running as a junior handler in a hunt test. He was 8 or 9 at the time. The dog came back with the bird and he patted her on the head and said “ good dog”, only to have a judge scream at him “Don’t touch the dog!”. He almost cried. Thankfully they passed him anyway and he got his AKC junior handler pin
A couple of tests later.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

J. Marti said:


> I have two dogs who sometimes are overly excited. Both will occasionally leap into the air and spin around when coming back to heel. When they spin in the air, they sometimes miscalculate distance and will touch me while coming down or when sitting.
> 
> The HT rules in AKC say the handler can't touch the dog before taking the bird. Would it be an automatic fail if a dog does his leap and air spin and touches me on the way down before I take the bird?






Read some but not all of this thread but my first thought is more solid obedience training. I would not let my dog return to heel that way but in my mind if it dose happen you didn't touch the dog the dog touched you. If there is an infraction it would be a lack of discipline and control not in touching the dog.


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## bananabeak93 (Oct 23, 2019)

I removed a large piece of grass from my dogs face while he was sitting at heel, seconds before i sent him on his second mark. After the test the judge told me to ask permission next time before i touched my dog because he could have failed me for it, HRC finish test.


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## djansma (Aug 26, 2004)

Section 11. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is being thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of “0” in Trainability.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Steve* posted


> Read some but not all of this thread but my first thought is more solid obedience training. I would not let my dog return to heel that way


Taken together with *Tobias'* post I agree and think that's the way for *J Marti* to go forward.

The classic way of squishing an unwanted behaviour is to train an incompatible behaviour on top of it ... hence the front delivery idea. There are others too. I don't believe doing this would affect the dog's enthusiasm one little bit. 

On a personal note I'm not a big fan of the formal side delivery anyway .... if I've got three (or sometimes four) dogs working in a hot corner there just isn't time for it, but no doubt HT judges don't see things my way!;-)

Eugene


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

djansma said:


> Section 11. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is being thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of “0” in Trainability.


You may not have read the entire thread, which is ok. But I would be interested to know how you interpret this paragraph, particularly as it applies to the judgement of the situation described in post #1 involving the delivery of a retrieved bird. Thanks.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Shadow and I were failed in a HRC seasoned test for touching the dog. On the last retrieve of the day, I stopped Shadow in a front sit position and with hands on each side of the duck took it from him. Judge said I touched dog. I did not believe I did.
While at a master test a judge cautioned me for almost touching Rowdy on return from a retrieve.
So, what are the rules? I haven't seen anything that applies. Maybe the seminars and tests to become a judge should clear this up.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

It sounds as if at least a few Judges would benefit from being enlightened about this in a seminar, or as a question on the Judge's test. It seems there are examples of this rule/guideline being misinterpreted in all the various HT venues. But I have to say, if a Judge can *READ*, it really shouldn't be necessary. Pretty sad, actually.- Paul


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Integrity, common sense and intelligence can't be taught at a seminar.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Let’s say you have a dog with a snappy response to here and heel. You have such a dog because you are skilled with collar conditioning. 

Another person has a pig because they aren’t good with a collar. 

Let’s say the pig isn’t likely to touch you. Is the pig better trained than the snappy dog?

I think it is more a perceived issue with gun safety, not discipline.

I trained my dog to run and jump into me on a front finish to get a fun bumper. He wouldn’t be doing that at a hunt test or a trial because that is different situation, but he is more likely to bump into me sometime in his life.

It is like people who let the dog put it’s paws on people. That isn’t exactly lack of training. I don’t let my dog ever do that but I don’t consider it lack of training if someone lets their dog put paws on people.

All you got to do to train a dog not to do something like that is give the dog a smack. It isn’t high level training. To be fair to the dog there are better ways to do it than a smack.

As a judge I can understand the reason for putting emphasis elsewhere. You would get more mileage from me quoting gun safety, unless I was at a field trial.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Granted not letting a behavior start and forceful enough to stop it Is more fair in the scheme of things. I just don’t see where personal house habits absolutely play into hunt tests .... but it is up the judges. If house habits are being judged it would a canine good citizen test .... but it is not.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

This whole thread makes me want to go out and do a bunch of stuff on line with my dogs that is all well within the rules, just to expose the stupidity of some judging. 

I used to say "no" to my dog a lot as part of my normal communication - was never a problem that I was made aware of. 

Giving a quick pat of praise within the rules? How could it be a problem to show you dog you appreciate his good work and attitude?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

djansma said:


> Section 11. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is being thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of “0” in Trainability.


Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Integrity, common sense and intelligence can't be taught at a seminar.



Perhaps true.

But what are you going to do to improve the situation?


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *Steve* postedTaken together with *Tobias'* post I agree and think that's the way for *J Marti* to go forward.
> 
> The classic way of squishing an unwanted behaviour is to train an incompatible behaviour on top of it ... hence the front delivery idea. There are others too. I don't believe doing this would affect the dog's enthusiasm one little bit...
> 
> Eugene


Thanks for the input, Eugene. Both dogs are trained for front delivery as well (because we do that while hunting.) It just seems to me front delivery isn't as efficient for hunt test training as far as setting up to send for the next mark, etc. But I am not a good or experienced test trainer so that is why I asked. I will try having both of them consistently deliver in front and then go to heel and see if that makes a difference.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Ted Shih said:


> drunkenpoacher said:
> 
> 
> > Integrity, common sense and intelligence can't be taught at a seminar.
> ...


Concerning field trials, I will continue to take full advantage of my good fortune being able to train with very experienced field trialers/judges. I analyze every single mark and blind and the factors in play. I watch how the dogs react to the factors especially when something unexpected happens. I greatly appreciate the advice and education I get in training.
Next year when I judge I’ll endeavor to do so with intelligence, integrity and common sense.
Concerning hunt tests which were the subject of the original post, I’ll help wherever I can in training and local tests but I have no interest in judging.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Thank you both for the information. I am going to try requiring them both to deliver in front, as suggested by Eugene on this thread, to see if that sort of slows them down when coming in for the delivery. They both know sit and deliver in front. Maybe if I change up delivering in front vs. side, it will cause a momentary hesitation which will slow down the spin to heel. 

If not, someone suggested privately I train with my hand in a certain position to indicate the dog is supposed to keep space between my leg and his head/body. I don't know if I will ever be a good enough trainer to do that but I probably could have a few laughs at myself while I try.  

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Greatly appreciated. 

Originally Posted by *djansma* 
_Section 11. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is being thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of “0” in Trainability._




drunkenpoacher said:


> Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.


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## Dave_Verbyla (Dec 10, 2018)

djansma said:


> Section 11. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is being thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of “0” in Trainability.


So based on the rule book, this should not be a problem since the handler was released by the judge to pick up the marks.

Based on the rule book, the handler can not touch the dog and must be quiet until the dog's number is called by the judge.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Dave_Verbyla said:


> Based on the rule book, the handler can not touch the dog and must be quiet until the dog's number is called by the judge.


You left out: *"... to keep it steady"

*The difference may not seem important, but it is. It is the difference between being an absolute or being a matter of judgement. That's important.

This thread exists because somehow there are judges that believe it is an absolute, and not just while marks are going down, but at any time while under judgement.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Don't forget the Rule prohibiting "threatening gestures." 

The reality is that most judges are going to say or do something unfavorable to you if you touch the dog while you are on the line. 

Ted


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Don't forget the Rule prohibiting "threatening gestures."
> 
> The reality is that most judges are going to say or do something unfavorable to you if you touch the dog while you are on the line.
> 
> Ted


Ted,

I am very much aware of this reality. I just cringe a little bit every time I hear about one of these mythical absolute rules that relieve judges from actually thinking and judging.

Seems to me that you are an advocate of judgement according to the rulebook.

Threatening gestures, hunting safety on the line and deficient training not forgotten in post 12.


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## Dave_Verbyla (Dec 10, 2018)

Ted Shih said:


> Don't forget the Rule prohibiting "threatening gestures."
> 
> The reality is that most judges are going to say or do something unfavorable to you if you touch the dog while you are on the line.
> 
> Ted


Why if the handler is not violating any rules in the rulebook?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Dave_Verbyla said:


> Why if the handler is not violating any rules in the rulebook?



There are many judges who view any touching of the dog once you leave the holding blind (before you run) and once you leave the line after you run (but before you are behind the judges) as grounds for elimination. If pressed, they will likely cite "intimidation" (which does not exist in the Rule Book), and if they dig into the Rule Book, call it a "threatening gesture." 

I am not saying I agree. I am saying it is so. If you or others want to be Don Quixote and tilt at windmills, be my guest. As for me, I would pick another fight. It's not that big a deal to suspend touching your dog for the five to ten minutes that you are on line. 

Ted


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

My dog and all that I train with would probably be confused and distracted if touched by the handler at the line.
Anyway the original question was about the dog bumping the handler when coming to heel which is not against the rules. Some heel very tight to the handler and are always brushing against their leg. 
There are a lot of ways an ignorant or dishonest judge could eliminate a dog from a test or trial. Fortunately judges like that are rare.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> There are many judges who view any touching of the dog once you leave the holding blind (before you run) *and once you leave the line after you run (but before you are behind the judges) as grounds for elimination.* If pressed, they will likely cite "intimidation" (which does not exist in the Rule Book), and if they dig into the Rule Book, call it a "threatening gesture."
> 
> I am not saying I agree. I am saying it is so. If you or others want to be Don Quixote and tilt at windmills, be my guest. As for me, I would pick another fight. It's not that big a deal to suspend touching your dog for the five to ten minutes that you are on line.
> 
> Ted


At the end of the last series of a Master test we ran, the judge stepped up behind me with his book, and wanted to show me how they judged an action I questioned them about in an earlier series,... The judge opened his book, and we were talking.. My dog, had retrieved the last bird, delivered to hand,,and was sitting at my side as we talked... the conversation lasted a bit.. When we were done, I lost focus,,and reached down, and leashed my dog to leave the line..  The judged stopped me and said,, "don't ask us to drop you NOW!!" Your dog ,has to be under control off leas, until you are well behind us! Unleash her,,and we will let it slip today, because we distracted you!  It was her Title run.. 
They gave me a break! They could have applied the rule (Unwritten?).. For sure! I made a mistake.. No excuse... It is widley understood, you do NOT touch your dog until you are finished with your run, and are well behind the line..


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> At the end of the last series of a Master test we ran, the judge stepped up behind me with his book, and wanted to show me how they judged an action I questioned them about in an earlier series,... The judge opened his book, and we were talking.. My dog, had retrieved the last bird, delivered to hand,,and was sitting at my side as we talked... the conversation lasted a bit.. When we were done, I lost focus,,and reached down, and leashed my dog to leave the line..  The judged stopped me and said,, "don't ask us to drop you NOW!!" Your dog ,has to be under control off leas, until you are well behind us! Unleash her,,and we will let it slip today, because we distracted you!  It was her Title run..
> They gave me a break! They could have applied the rule (Unwritten?).. For sure! I made a mistake.. No excuse... It is widley understood, you do NOT touch your dog until you are finished with your run, and are well behind the line..


I hate to beat the sacred, mythical horse of no touch ... but the judge _gave you a break_ on a written rule, which has nothing to do with any unwritten rules about touching your dog.



> Leashes and collars shall be used as follows: In Senior
> and Master Tests, dogs shall be brought to the line and
> taken from the line off-lead and without collars. Collars
> and leashes may be put on the dogs after they leave the
> ...


And



> Serious Handler Faults: Serious faults listed cover
> all those instances where the Standard describes conduct of
> the handler which in and of itself justifies elimination from
> the stake.
> ...


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.


 wrong again drunkenpoacher.
First, you can't look at that rule in isolation of the rest of the rulebook

I presume by your flawed logic that once the judge give your number if your dog were to go over and lift his leg on the judge or start a fight with the honordog that that would be okay too; as it's not prohibited in the specific language of that rule.
Wrong!

Second, Can you show me anywhere in the specific language of that rule where it says it's okay to touch your dog after the number is given by the judge?

No you can't, because it doesn't say that.

I believe you'll find as you gain more experience that in the vast majority of cases that if you feel it necessary to touch your dog after you're given your number that the judge is going to look and judge you negatively based upon your perceived need to touch the dog


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

T-Pines said:


> I hate to beat the sacred, mythical horse of no touch ... but the judge _gave you a break_ on a written rule, which has nothing to do with any unwritten rules about touching your dog.
> 
> 
> 
> And



YES! Correct!! I did a LOT wrong! I exposed the leash!,,I touched her before I leashed,,, then I leashed her.... the judges gave me a HUGE break..

Well aware of the rule of unleashing before coming to the line,, and leashing after you are well behind judges.. Same requirement in Senior..


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

tigerfan said:


> drunkenpoacher said:
> 
> 
> > Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.
> ...


I thought I had posted a very simple statement that anyone could understand. It was until you prove me “wrong again”. Maybe you can find somebody to read and explain the whole thread to you.
Anyway, how was Christmas Tigerscat? Please relay my sympathy to anyone that had to spend it with you.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.


However, a handler and his/her dog are evaluated by the entire Rule Book, not just one Rule


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Ted Shih said:


> drunkenpoacher said:
> 
> 
> > Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.
> ...


Of course they are. All the rules of a civilized society also apply.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

J. Marti said:


> I have two dogs who sometimes are overly excited. . . . . . Would it be an automatic fail if a dog does his leap and air spin and touches me on the way down before I take the bird?


No, it would not be.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I swear I'm going to go run some tests, have someone video and pet the **** out of my dog


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> There are many judges who view any touching of the dog once you leave the holding blind (before you run) and once you leave the line after you run (but before you are behind the judges) as grounds for elimination. If pressed, they will likely cite "intimidation" (which does not exist in the Rule Book), and if they dig into the Rule Book, call it a "threatening gesture."
> 
> I am not saying I agree. I am saying it is so. If you or others want to be Don Quixote and tilt at windmills, be my guest. As for me, I would pick another fight. It's not that big a deal to suspend touching your dog for the five to ten minutes that you are on line.
> 
> Ted


Unfortunately there is not a rule in any rule book for '_common sense'_ although it is widely assumed and rarely used .It becomes confrontational and clouded especially after an incident involving a singular person that excludes common sense in reading any rules ...especially when judged by another


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

A lot of discussion about touching, I think ,to be safe, if the judges are liberal, touch away, if conservative, you can touch just don’t let the media document it. We’ll call it the RAC Biden addendum.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Don't forget the Rule prohibiting "threatening gestures."
> 
> The reality is that most judges are going to say or do something unfavorable to you if you touch the dog while you are on the line.
> 
> Ted


And if you don’t believe that and want to test the water try grabbing your dogs ear and pulling toward you next time your dog won’t pull.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

EdA said:


> And if you don’t believe that and want to test the water try grabbing your dogs ear and pulling toward you next time your dog won’t pull.


Or step hard with knee into them to push.. 

Or,, touch the dog just before you take the bird on delivery..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I too have been warned "Do NOT touch your dog!" In the holding blind as they planted the blind.. Dog was overly excited,and was wanting to look around the holding blind,and I stepped up into her ,and said "Sit",,, then the Judge made the comment..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

On a Senior Blind,,, I said kinda loud ( ok yelled)  ,," BAILEY" then blew a sit whistle... BOTH judges simultaineously (at the same time) said.. "Thank You handler, will you Honor on lead" They claimed "Intimidation"

I could no more intimidate that dog, than fly in the air! 

Despite what the rule books say or don't say,,,,,, I think it best when the Marks are being thrown, just don't love talk, or touch..

When running a Blind,, its best not to let the gallery know the dogs name,, or NAMES you may call it..


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