# Down the chocolate colored rabbit hole we go...



## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Ok. It's finally time for me to look into breeding my bitch. Both fortunately and unfortunately, her pedigree doesn't contain many of the big name dogs out there. It's good in the respect that pretty much all options are open, but coming from an otherwise unproven/unknown line it's difficult to see who she might cross well with. Most of the previous threads I'm finding talk about many dogs that are no longer breeding naturally. Since this will be her first breeding, I don't want to do AI. I'm looking for some ideas for potential EEbb or EEBb studs that are currently breeding naturally.

A bit about my bitch:

Excellent drive. She always wants to work.
High motor in the field, good style, and a great off switch at home.
Very trainable. Most concepts take 1-3 repetitions before she's got it down. She performs consistently regardless of the handler (2 stupid HT fails that were both 100% handler issues).
Very good marker. She just seems to know where the birds are. Totally underwhelmed by the hunt test marks. Spent the spring preparing to run Derby. Currently in training to run quals later this summer.

Multiple well-respected individuals in the retriever community that have seen her run seem to think, with her natural ability, she could play the game at any level with the right training. By and large, any shortcomings I've experienced with her thus far have been my fault, not hers. I know everyone thinks they've got a great dog, and most of us do, so I'm trying not to exaggerate her attributes.

Stud requirements:
Choc or Choc factored - if I were keeping them all myself, I wouldn't care, but the pups will likely end up going to HT/hunting homes. As such, I'm trying to keep the litter marketable to that customer base.
Proven performer - Again, it's hard to judge her talent based on a paragraph, but I don't want to breed her to a less talented dog (subjective, I know). 
Proven producer - At least one puppy will be going on a pro HT truck, and I will be keeping another for derby/FT
Prefer EIC clear, but I'm open to a carrier if it meets the rest of my wickets. Let's hear some ideas!


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## Casey A (May 31, 2011)

My 2 cents.... He isn't the most well known Chocolate producer, but I would take a look at Special Agent M2 MH QAA "Bond". He is Tri-factored. His sire is NAFC Carbon. His breeding was a 3-peat that produced at least 6 or 7 FC-AFC's and those dogs have gone on to produce FC's as well. His MH pass rate is great and has passed the two Master Nationals he has run in. 

He is at Donnybrook Kennels in Cedar Grove, WI. 

I have a 7 month old chocolate out of a SH bitch that I am really pleased with and my plan right now is to run Derby's next spring. He is a fantastic marker so far and his desire is off the charts. 

This is a link to my pup's pedigree: http://huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=89591


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It looks like she just turned 2 last month with no certs up yet. I'm assuming you have performed them. If you are training for quals, why not wait to breed her until after she's QAA?


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Correct. Certs are not up. Testing has been done. If all goes well, she'll be running quals this fall with plenty of chances before she comes in season around the end of the year. I would certainly like to get her QAA by then.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I've got a really nice chocolate pup who I hope achieves HRCH(more if she has the talent) at a minimum and I can raise some pups from her. My trainer suggested FC Peakebrooke's Secret Weapon(call name Bond) as a stud candidate. He has hidden chocolate and throws some extremely nice puppies. He has trained a couple of pups from him and both were very, very nice. High drive and extremely good marking skills. I don't think he's been bred a lot though, so he's probably lacking in the proven producer category.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

Scotty Seward in Glen Arbor Michigan has Glen Lake F-One-O-Wonder (Voodoo) who is 4 years old, big chocolate guy. Derby list, AAQ, MH, finished Am FT and is running Ams. Very well bred dog. Scotty can be reached at Birch Shores Resort until October and then lives in CA. You can message me for more info. on contact if interested.


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## gib (Sep 5, 2006)

Take a look at SRSAx2 HRCH Spring River's Yankee Captain MNR QAA. Jeter is a great looking chocolate with a really nice pedigree and performance track record. (sent you a PM).


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## John Gianladis (Jun 23, 2012)

I had the misfortune of running Derbies against WBF's Man On The Stand last year. I was quite impressed with his talent. Clayton Taylor did an excellent job with his training. He might be worth considering!

Johnny G


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## kpolley (Jun 5, 2007)

Agree with John, maestro is very nice. Also Adam Bally with Ballys Gun Dogs has a well bred choc who is QAA'd and has some master passes available. Think they are located in south central Minnesota.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm the thing about chocolates, is there's only so many lines, these lines get crossed and crossed, hoping to bring out that special color. However when lines get crossed and crossed, you start to see an accumulation of other recessive genes. Things You just might not want to see. Thus If your thinking about breeding esp. a chocolate, rather than just willie nillie, saying this is a good stud dog and carries this color. You need to look at the bitches pedigree, what she has to offer and what just might nix with her. If she highly out-bred might be safe going for some of the tried & true chocolate carrying studs, If she's more inbred, particularly on that color gene, might want to bring in some variety. Bringing in variety might mean going out of the box, but it might end-up producing better pups that can add to the gene pool later. If you like your dog, and she isn't particularly inbred might look for a stud to bring in a few of her ancestors from 4-5 generations back, this could set you up to see more of her in the pups. Still it all comes down to most wouldn't be able to offer you options without at least seeing her pedigree. People keep tabs on color carrying dogs, probably know of several Bb and bb who are great dogs. Are they great for your girl? I have No idea, I don't know your dog, would at least need to see the pedigree, in order to be able to put names forward .


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Hmm the thing about chocolates, is there's only so many lines, these lines get crossed and crossed, hoping to bring out that special color. However when lines get crossed and crossed, you start to see an accumulation of other recessive genes. Things You just might not want to see. Thus If your thinking about breeding esp. a chocolate, rather than just willie nillie, saying this is a good stud dog and carries this color. You need to look at the bitches pedigree, what she has to offer and what just might nix with her. If she highly out-bred might be safe going for some of the tried & true chocolate carrying studs, If she's more inbred, particularly on that color gene, might want to bring in some variety. Bringing in variety might mean going out of the box, but it might end-up producing better pups that can add to the gene pool later. If you like your dog, and she isn't particularly inbred might look for a stud to bring in a few of her ancestors from 4-5 generations back, this could set you up to see more of her in the pups. Still it all comes down to most wouldn't be able to offer you options without at least seeing her pedigree. People keep tabs on color carrying dogs, probably know of several Bb and bb who are great dogs. Are they great for your girl? I have No idea, I don't know your dog, would at least need to see the pedigree, in order to be able to put names forward .


Ok, I don't have a good idea of what to look for when crossing lines. Here's my pup's pedigree: http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=95645

What stud(s)/lines would you recommend being best for crossing? It wouldn't have to be a chocolate stud. Black w/hidden chocolate would be fine as well. I hope I don't derail the OP's question. I just have the same question and thought it would be better keeping the discussion in one place.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Contact Niki and Troy Tilleraas... TNT labs and Kennel on facebook. There Cannon stud would fit the bill. He is MHR, MH QAA and just a couple passes from HRCH. Just missed the derby list I think. Pirate son, he is actually tri factored and out of a very nice chocolate female. Not too terrible far from you either.

https://www.facebook.com/tntlabsandkennel?fref=ts


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

Check out chocolatelabstud.com


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Hmm the thing about chocolates, is there's only so many lines, these lines get crossed and crossed, hoping to bring out that special color. However when lines get crossed and crossed, you start to see an accumulation of other recessive genes. Things You just might not want to see. Thus If your thinking about breeding esp. a chocolate, rather than just willie nillie, saying this is a good stud dog and carries this color. You need to look at the bitches pedigree, what she has to offer and what just might nix with her. If she highly out-bred might be safe going for some of the tried & true chocolate carrying studs, If she's more inbred, particularly on that color gene, might want to bring in some variety. Bringing in variety might mean going out of the box, but it might end-up producing better pups that can add to the gene pool later. If you like your dog, and she isn't particularly inbred might look for a stud to bring in a few of her ancestors from 4-5 generations back, this could set you up to see more of her in the pups. Still it all comes down to most wouldn't be able to offer you options without at least seeing her pedigree. People keep tabs on color carrying dogs, probably know of several Bb and bb who are great dogs. Are they great for your girl? I have No idea, I don't know your dog, would at least need to see the pedigree, in order to be able to put names forward .


If you read my original post, she's extremely outbred, so the book is pretty well open from that respect. That's also why I included as much as I did about my bitch.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=13162

Rommel has a great pedigree, though he never ran field trials, he is known to produce nice healthy pups. Thoughts on him?

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=43470

Berkeley is another intriguing prospect. I'd love to hear thoughts on either if these.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

bamajeff said:


> Ok, I don't have a good idea of what to look for when crossing lines. Here's my pup's pedigree: http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/extpedigree.asp?id=95645
> 
> What stud(s)/lines would you recommend being best for crossing? It wouldn't have to be a chocolate stud. Black w/hidden chocolate would be fine as well. I hope I don't derail the OP's question. I just have the same question and thought it would be better keeping the discussion in one place.


This one is pretty out-bred , out of 2 chocolates, but both are 1 generation back to black. You've got Cuda, Dakota Roux>Gt. points>Riptide>Pachanga. A bit of Lean-Mac out of High Tech (not much); You could line breed on any of those lines. FC AFC Roux-Drake Offspring should be in the area, possibly some Dakota Roux, if I recall there's a few GHRCH QAA out that way. If you want to out-cross might look into Running with the Devil offspring. Might Look at his Son Tide, FC AFC Rebel Ridge Cosmic Rise 'n Fall MH. , It would be a semi-line bred on High tech, but also bring in Devil. Or if your adventurous FC AFC money Talks II (Yellow dog who carries Brown), mix the colors, as long as your dog doesn't also carry yellow; you will get black and brown pups, without the possibility of a dudley.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> This one is pretty out-bred , out of 2 chocolates, but both are 1 generation back to black. You've got Cuda, Dakota Roux>Gt. points>Riptide>Pachanga. A bit of Lean-Mac out of High Tech (not much); You could line breed on any of those lines. FC AFC Roux-Drake Offspring should be in the area, possibly some Dakota Roux, if I recall there's a few GHRCH QAA out that way. If you want to out-cross might look into Running with the Devil offspring. Might Look at his Son Tide, FC AFC Rebel Ridge Cosmic Rise 'n Fall MH. , It would be a semi-line bred on High tech, but also bring in Devil. Or if your adventurous FC AFC money Talks II (Yellow dog who carries Brown), mix the colors, as long as your dog doesn't also carry yellow; you will get black and brown pups, without the possibility of a dudley.


I found a couple in the huntinglabpedigree database that look promising:

http://huntinglabpedigree.com/studdog.asp?id=92239

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=62170

The first one is a young dog(4 yr old) that should get his GRHRCH this year. Just had his first pass. Not a lot of pups out there yet sired by him to tell how he will perform as a sire. What are your thoughts on these 2?


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

Personally, I would spend 20.00 for a month subscription for www.gooddoginfo.com Use his % of influence database and make test litters for each stud. Review what dogs will give the most influence and if that influence is something you want or not. Make a decision based upon known traits, and medical soundness.

Of the stud dogs pedigrees place for review Payton and Rommel have the same bitch line pedigree as the dams are littermates. This bitch line breeding has a very successful pile of working retrievers. Another sister Field of Dreams Willow b one QAA has had several puppies running in recent National Amateur and Open Championships. Really can't go wrong there. 
Another good eye on what works for well for chocolates is Mandy C of Gator Point Labradors.


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## Frank Jones (Feb 17, 2004)

Brink's Buster Brown. Chocolate by Pirate out of a Devil daughter. 26 derby points and won the Derby and Q on the same weekend. All amateur trained by Steve Ferguson in Emporia, VA. Naturally talented and compliant. Has all his clearances.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Consider the other half of this equation. 
What are your girl's weaknesses? Be really honest with yourself; most of us aren't always (I'm in the same "thinking about it" boat). Do you want to improve or will you be happy with a carbon copy?
Everybody talks about strengths (and for good reason will only do so on a forum). You either need firsthand knowledge or have some excellent sources to know about these studs' weaknesses and come up with your best match.


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## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

Chocolate studs with derby points and QAA: Brinks Buster Brown, Ryder's Bull Rush, Maestro, F One o wonder, AFC Choco's lickety split
A chocolate factored black with a great bitch line, great stats. and doing great in field trials right now: FC Swiftriver's No problem


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

My Berkley has produced some really nice puppies and some have already started to get HT titles and even derby points. He has had quite a few repeat breedings because the puppies have turned out so nice.

Let me know if you have any questions.

www.threeriversretrievers.com


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Consider the other half of this equation.
> What are your girl's weaknesses? Be really honest with yourself; most of us aren't always (I'm in the same "thinking about it" boat). Do you want to improve or will you be happy with a carbon copy?
> Everybody talks about strengths (and for good reason will only do so on a forum). You either need firsthand knowledge or have some excellent sources to know about these studs' weaknesses and come up with your best match.


Of course she's perfect. If I could just clone her a dozen times, the retriever world would be better off for it.
[heavy sarcasm for those that couldn't tell]

Honestly, she doesn't have any glaring holes. She isn't antsy or vocal on the line. She has a big motor when it's time to work and a great off switch when it isn't. The biggest issue I've seen with her is her tendency to rely heavily on her nose, rather than her eyes, once she feels she is in the area of the fall on marks. Luckily, she seems to get to the AOF accurately on most occasions. What I would really like is to amplify her existing traits. I do not want the pups to be any more mellow than she is when on line. I like the high drive. Her biggest weakness is honestly the idiot next to her with the whistle. I need to, and plan to, continue to push her, because I can't really get a good feel for her weaknesses running the HT game. I'm hoping that challenging her a bit more will highlight her true strengths and weaknesses. I'm not out to create the next big performance litter the first time out the chute. Being a maiden, I have no idea how she will throw. The challenge with her is her pedigree was largely untested/unproven as competitors. As such, I don't have much idea who she will cross best with. Hence this thread.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Z's pedigree:

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=80045

I'm interested in the Devil, Pirate, and Hook lines based on what I have seen out of their pups firsthand. If there are others I should be looking at, I wouldn't know where to start.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Gates.....


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

JoeOverby said:


> Gates.....


Is there even any frozen left from him?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

For that out bred pedigree I'd consider The Barracuda-Blue Ryder line. Ryder was a cross of Barrcuda blue and Riptides (sister); Pirate is of that line, but also FC AFC Roux MH & FC AFC Drake. CNAFC FC AFC Ammo is 4th generation chocolate FC AFC, of that line; seems to be very consistent; also seems to blend well with out-crossing. I know Roux has several highly accomplished son's (GRHRCH MH QAA, a few with Upper level wins). Drake as well. The younger pups from those sires were Black, most are still under 2 yrs. Of that Line last I heard Pirate & Cuda, have frozen (available?), Ryder, Roux & Drake might have frozen (but very limited quantity, I believe only for personal use).

Also Elwood and It's all over Now Baby blue offspring & lines; are chocolate lines, I'm not too familiar with them but, They were FC AFC and produced some nice pups


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> Is there even any frozen left from him?


5 or less straws as of a month ago.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Nick Toti said:


> 5 or less straws as of a month ago.


I suppose there's even less, if any for Tiger, huh?


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## Robert E (Jun 9, 2009)

NAFC Hook is an option


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> I suppose there's even less, if any for Tiger, huh?


Not Sure about quantity but there are several sons and grandsons of both Tiger and Gates. My choco boy is a product of a linebreeding on Gates and Tiger Mcbunn....I'm really happy with him.


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## downbirds (Jan 19, 2012)

There is still some Gates available. He'd be my pick, but they wanted natural. But I'm not impartial, I have 7, not quite 3 week old Gates pups chasing little balls around the whelping room. Cute little dickens.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

downbirds said:


> There is still some Gates available. He'd be my pick, but they wanted natural. But I'm not impartial, I have 7, not quite 3 week old Gates pups chasing little balls around the whelping room. Cute little dickens.


What's a Gates straw going for now. Considering line breeding back to that line


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## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

Have to throw my dogs names in there. They are out of the lines being discussed, have strictly field trial lines, have both proven themselves and are proven sires. 

5 x GRHRCH UH Barracuda Brown From Big Mamou Town MH**
http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=19653

GRHRCH UH Big Mamou's Run Forest Run MH MNH **
http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=26809


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

championretrievers said:


> Have to throw my dogs names in there. They are out of the lines being discussed, have strictly field trial lines, have both proven themselves and are proven sires.
> 
> 5 x GRHRCH UH Barracuda Brown From Big Mamou Town MH**
> http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=19653
> ...


How many pups have each sired, and how many have titled(hunt test) or had any achievement in field trials? Huntinglabpedigree database doesn't show many pups(I know it's dependent on people entering information on the pups and is not usually up to date)?


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

there is a great deal of information on this thread. interesting.

i wonder how many posting here in response to the op's original inquiry have put a breeding together that produced a national field champion? i counted one, are there others?


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## Bbrown (Jan 5, 2013)

I have a nice QAA Merlyn puppy that is choco factored. He's still in Q's but will hopefully be running Open's by 3. He's with Mark Smith in MN.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

roseberry said:


> there is a great deal of information on this thread. interesting.
> 
> i wonder how many posting here in response to the op's original inquiry have put a breeding together that produced a national field champion? i counted one, are there others?


What is that supposed to mean John?? That people shouldn't post unless they've bred a National field champion?? Cmon man...


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

bamajeff said:


> What's a Gates straw going for now. Considering line breeding back to that line


$2500. Just went up $1000 from $1500, due to so few remaining.

Owner: Ed Haskins 610-823-5889


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

downbirds said:


> There is still some Gates available. He'd be my pick, but they wanted natural. But I'm not impartial, I have 7, not quite 3 week old Gates pups chasing little balls around the whelping room. Cute little dickens.


I have a friend that has a 7 week old litter of 11 by Gates and he is extremely excited about their progress as well. Hopefully some great little animals in the making!


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

JoeOverby said:


> What is that supposed to mean John?? That people shouldn't post unless they've bred a National field champion?? Cmon man...


didn't mean anything. i just noted a "great amount of information in the thread". i noted that it was an "interesting" thread. i noted that at least "one of the contributors has bred a national champ". then, since i felt this thread informative and credible, i wondered how many other posters have had the skill and luck to breed at least one big time winner. must have come across improperly. sorry


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

Nick Toti said:


> I have a friend that has a 7 week old litter of 11 by Gates and he is extremely excited about their progress as well. Hopefully some great little animals in the making!


Love the optimism, but 7 weeks??????

fp


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## downbirds (Jan 19, 2012)

If Nick is right, boy am I happy, I got in just under the gun, lucky for me once. I'm pleased so far with my pups at three weeks chaseing a little ball, hope they pan out. Back to posters question, if you go to findretrievers.com you can put in the name fc go down to color check chocolate, black chocolate factored, black chocolate and yellow factored and same for yellow. It gives you a nice list that meet those criteria including FC's and AFC's. Also retriever results has stats for most of these dogs, including performance and performance as a sire. Both are good resources to research studs. Both sites have a lot of info if you just start looking around the sites. I started a note book when I started looking for a stud, it has about 5 pages of possible studs, chocolate or chocolate factored, from QAA or MNH, to NFC and all between. I think you can put in QAA into findretrievers.com also . good luck in your search.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

roseberry said:


> didn't mean anything. i just noted a "great amount of information in the thread". i noted that it was an "interesting" thread. i noted that at least "one of the contributors has bred a national champ". then, since i felt this thread informative and credible, i wondered how many other posters have had the skill and luck to breed at least one big time winner. must have come across improperly. sorry


I haven't bred one, been looking into the breeding aspect for ~ 4yrs. put together 2-3 litters, got a couple HRCH MH's & Qual dogs, but they are young. I will admit my interests don't lie in any particular game; but rather on a dog that can do it all, including hunt ~1/2 the year. This is why whenever I'm considering a litter-match-up whatever, I do the research and then ask the guy who has bred a CNAFC, several FC-AFC-MH, a bunch of MH HRCH QAA dogs; and runs a duck club. Doing research is good, brings about possibilities, but taking those possibilities and listening to those with vast amounts of experience is smart as well .

I also think if your looking for a proven sire, and put the chocolate aspect into it, your going to have to deal with limited availability, selection criteria, and price. They're just aren't that many of them. The newer sires aren't proven yet, their offspring if they have any are young, and the most of the older more proven sires are no longer with us and have very limited stock.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Bayou Magic said:


> Love the optimism, but 7 weeks??????
> 
> fp


Actually 6.5 weeks. Eleven 6.5 week old pups piling over each other to chase a pigeon 50 yards, jumping repeatedly into the pool, swimming their little hearts out just for the pleasure of it, and 5-6 of them going to very accomplished HT or FT trainers, yea he's excited about them. Didn't say he has 11 FCs, said he was excited about their progress.


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## SWIPER (Sep 24, 2006)

Personally I would stay local, since this will be her 1st litter you don't know what she will be like as a mom. This way you can see the sire and maybe some of the pups he has produced.
www.lockednloadedlabs.com


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

Shameless plug Fred's my chocolate Tiger son pedigree in signature below. whose Dam is currently running in Canadian National AM Open. He is a chocolate out of 2 FC/AFC black lab parents. His dam is daughter of FC Dare to Dream and Castille Creek River MNH7


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## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

Being the owner of the sires, I don't have the information on all the puppy buyers. I do get updates from some and have started compiling a list to try to keep up with the ones who contact me. The number would be quite higher than what I have listed. With that being said, I can provide a list of multiple hunt test titles sired by both dogs including HRCH and MH. The performance of their pups have exceeded my expectations. As far as field trial titles, we run hunt test and this is our primary market of buyers. Both studs are out of great dogs in the field trial line and I believe some of the breedings would have been good contenders for that market. Recently, there have been a litters where a couple of buyers are going to try derbies so we shall see. For the OP, there are a lot of great recommendations on this post. Some fit the criteria for a natural breeding and some don't. As you can tell from my pedigrees, I am a big fan of the Barracuda line and Land Ahoy line. I also like the Tiger McBunn line a lot(sibling to Gates). We have never owned nor trained a Gates pup but I would expect the same greatness out of his pups.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

There has been a ton of good information so far. The only real line breeding available would be Surgical AI which I don't want to do to her the first time. I really don't know how to tell which outcross lines would be a good fit for my bitch.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

championretrievers said:


> Being the owner of the sires, I don't have the information on all the puppy buyers. I do get updates from some and have started compiling a list to try to keep up with the ones who contact me. The number would be quite higher than what I have listed. With that being said, I can provide a list of multiple hunt test titles sired by both dogs including HRCH and MH. The performance of their pups have exceeded my expectations. As far as field trial titles, we run hunt test and this is our primary market of buyers. Both studs are out of great dogs in the field trial line and I believe some of the breedings would have been good contenders for that market. Recently, there have been a litters where a couple of buyers are going to try derbies so we shall see. For the OP, there are a lot of great recommendations on this post. Some fit the criteria for a natural breeding and some don't. As you can tell from my pedigrees, I am a big fan of the Barracuda line and Land Ahoy line. I also like the Tiger McBunn line a lot(sibling to Gates). We have never owned nor trained a Gates pup but I would expect the same greatness out of his pups.


I am a fan as well. My bitch has Barracuda Blue, Pachanga Magnum Force and Dakota's Cajun Roux in her 3-gen pedigree and Gates in the 4th. I would like to breed back in to the Barracuda Line and/or Pachanga and Gates. I really like Pirate too. Having a hard time deciding being so new to this game.


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

My dog Bleu should be a consideration. Amateur Win, Open jam, three back to back Qual seconds. Ammo Brother, Clear/Clear, Exc. hips, Working dog for my guide service. www.arcadiaretrievers.com


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm familiar with several Gates offspring, He seems to put excellent marking and a bit of fire into the mix. Crossed a Gates Male to a Blue Ryder Female. Got Great marking, a lil stubborn when it comes to handling, and HOT HOT HOT, keeps yah on your toes. . 

Not familiar with his brother Tiger McBunn, but would be interested in traits he seems to throw. Might think about a line breeding later; but looking for a bit less spice.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

downbirds said:


> If Nick is right, boy am I happy, I got in just under the gun, lucky for me once. I'm pleased so far with my pups at three weeks chaseing a little ball, hope they pan out. Back to posters question, if you go to findretrievers.com you can put in the name fc go down to color check chocolate, black chocolate factored, black chocolate and yellow factored and same for yellow. It gives you a nice list that meet those criteria including FC's and AFC's. Also retriever results has stats for most of these dogs, including performance and performance as a sire. Both are good resources to research studs. Both sites have a lot of info if you just start looking around the sites. I started a note book when I started looking for a stud, it has about 5 pages of possible studs, chocolate or chocolate factored, from QAA or MNH, to NFC and all between. I think you can put in QAA into findretrievers.com also . good luck in your search.


How many pups did you have? Anyone know what the avg litter size is from Gates?


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> There has been a ton of good information so far. The only real line breeding available would be Surgical AI which I don't want to do to her the first time. I really don't know how to tell which outcross lines would be a good fit for my bitch.


Why not give Brad LaFave a call. He is in Appleton Wis area if that is near by. Field of Dreams Kennels. He has produced several litters chocked full of FC/AFC he owned a Tadah daughter and bred her to Pirate.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I'm familiar with several Gates offspring, He seems to put excellent marking and a bit of fire into the mix. Crossed a Gates Male to a Blue Ryder Female. Got Great marking, a lil stubborn when it comes to handling, and HOT HOT HOT, keeps yah on your toes. .
> 
> Not familiar with his brother Tiger McBunn, but would be interested in traits he seems to throw. Might think about a line breeding later; but looking for a bit less spice.


Have had several barracuda blue x gates crosses...all are exactly what you described. My favorites of late are gates x baby blue females or tiger mcbunn x gates female crosses...excellent marking and level headed with a BIG motor. I do like Rascal lines as that was my first but there's just something about Gates.


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## dgowder (Apr 3, 2012)

Hey Joe, let's just buy all the Gates semen that is left, I will go in for half


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