# Best Amish dog training program



## MooseMT (Oct 14, 2009)

What do you RTF folks recomend as the best training program for an amish trainer?

Merry Christmas

Jeff


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

MooseMT said:


> What do you RTF folks recomend as the best training program for an amish trainer?
> 
> Merry Christmas
> 
> Jeff


I'll save you some time. Check this thread out.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47430&highlight=amish

Good luck with the pup.

john


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

You have so many to choose from like Nike, Converse, New Balance......


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Jeff, since most current books on retriever training are based on using an e collar you may have to refer to an old standby : Training your Retriever by James Lamb Free, more current books like Jim and Phylliss Dobbs Tri Tronics Training are good even though it does use an E collar, its still very informative and IMHO you need to understand how a collar is used as a tool so you can train without one


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Motivational Training for the Field by Lorie Jolly.
Lots of Carr/Lardy drills, very useful. There is no reason you couldn't add a collar to the program if you choose.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

The book I had good luck with in my Amish days was TRAINING RETRIEVERS FOR THE MARSHES AND MEADOWS by James B. Spencer. Alpine Publishing.

I would still use the Lardy Volume I along with it, if I were doing it today.

Chris


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ken Archer said:


> You have so many to choose from like Nike, Converse, New Balance......


Ken I refuse to support Nike,Converse quality has gone way downhill and I use New Balance for my everyday athletic shoe....but old school TST (tennis shoe trainers) like myself prefer to use the latest in technology in shoes..I prefer Keen, Merrell, or Columbia..I find I get better traction on wet grass and am able to change direction easier over uneven terrain, I also prefer the 3/4 top models for added ankle support


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Gundog training the young labrador, by Stan Harvey. Stan is the former captain of the English gundog team.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Take a good look at a program that can teach you collar conditioning. Amish training does take longer and sometimes can be very frustrating especially in making corrections on blind work. However, if you just want a pet to hunt with you then it doesn't matter. Field trials forget it. Hunt Tests yes. Junior, Senior no problem. Master maybe?? But do able. Maybe go into something different with your dog - Rally, agility, obedience.


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## K.Bolan (Feb 1, 2008)

"The Labrador Shooting Dog" by Mike Gould.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

MooseMT said:


> What do you RTF folks recomend as the best training program for an amish trainer?
> 
> Merry Christmas
> 
> Jeff


Jeff, what are this particular Amish trainer's goals? What are the reasons that he is choosing to train without an e-collar? What breeding of dog is he training?

Chris


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

There are two that I would recommend along with Spencer as advised by Chris.

"British Training for American Retrievers" by Vic Barlow, and "Working Gundogs" by Martin Deeley. The latter has just been revised and is a good amalgam of the "drill" type of systematic training and mostly positive methods. Well illustrated, I think it would appeal to those in the US who want to follow a laid down procedure but without the e collar.

Eug


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Jeff, what are this particular Amish trainer's goals? What are the reasons that he is choosing to train without an e-collar? What breeding of dog is he training?
> 
> Chris


 
What has happened to one of the RTF members, Dave 'Peake'? He trained Chessies in Amish fashion. Bet he has an idea or two. 

Although I must admit, Ken comes from the 'original' school of "tennis-shoe-trainers," and gave me a smile with his post.

UB


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

I believe Colonel Blimp is pretty close to being correct. Although Martin Deely does use e-collars, he's still experienced at using non-collar methods without resorting to bird shot, sling-shots and so on.

My experience on British forums seems to be in line with 'Blimpt'. Brits do not appear to take advantage of the numerous drills we use to train retrievers here in the US. I think they are missing something.

In any case, my take on US drills is that very many of them do not involve the use of e-collars as a primary method. They are teaching drills, where corrections are intentionally avoided for a variety of good reasons. Of course, you will have to use motivation (a la Lorie Jolly) in place of 'force to pile', 'water force', etc.

I believe, based upon my limited experience, that you can use many of these drills to good effect, and correct where necessary by other means. It does involve a lot of 'attrition', and therefore, patience. But, if you read carefully on this forum, you will find that many, very solid collar trainers use 'attrition' a lot.

Just my 2-cents. If you have to narrow it down - go with Lorie Jolly, and James Spencer as Chris suggested.

Snick


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> There are two that I would recommend along with Spencer as advised by Chris.
> 
> "British Training for American Retrievers" by Vic Barlow, and "Working Gundogs" by Martin Deeley. The latter has just been revised and is a good amalgam of the "drill" type of systematic training and mostly positive methods. Well illustrated, I think it would appeal to those in the US who want to follow a laid down procedure but without the e collar.
> 
> Eug


But Martin does use a collar now days.


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

Uncle Bill said:


> What has happened to one of the RTF members, Dave 'Peake'? He trained Chessies in Amish fashion. Bet he has an idea or two.
> 
> Although I must admit, Ken comes from the 'original' school of "tennis-shoe-trainers," and gave me a smile with his post.
> 
> UB


Unca'

Thanks for thinking of me and one of my favorite topics. I've given it a lot of thought and IMHO the best book "program" is actually a two book combination. 

#1 - "The Ten Minute Retriever" by the Dahl's

dovetailed with

#2 - "Training Retrievers to Handle" by D.L. Walters 

and for historic perspective Quinns "The Working Retrievers"










________
Herbal Vaporizer Prices


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

I can't suggest a non collar program, per se, but I will suggest that anyone "tennis shoe" training is screwing up. Far, far better to be careful about voice control and clear association of tones or words with correction and not wearing them out. Doing so can afford the most timely of remote corrections and cut waaaay down on the need for meeting Pup afield.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Peake said:


>


That yours in the middle of that pile, Dave?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Rick Hall said:


> I can't suggest a non collar program, per se, but I will suggest that anyone "tennis shoe" training is screwing up. Far, far better to be careful about voice control and clear association of tones or words with correction and not wearing them out. Doing so can afford the most timely of remote corrections and cut waaaay down on the need for meeting Pup afield.


And no graven images of your training group










until the pup knows each and every one of them on sight...or onsite.

MG


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

The Barlow book (as previously recommended) and Robert Milner's "Back to Basics" are my favorites. You can train a solid, working retriever using these two volumes.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

I don't like either that "amish" term... sounds weird to me...

We train all our dogs with no FF neither ecollar and strictly baseed on positive reinforcement. As said previously, it takes more time, asks for tight owner's discipline and consistance (as all other methods).

Tha link to a previous thread seems great and shows you a couple of persons that can give you hints about that method.

First goal, to me, is to have a good evaluation on the pup. What is it's energy level, its focus, its will to please, its interaction with humans. From there, we have the first "lines to follow" as that reading of the pup gives you the direction or emphasis to put on things. So, the first challange is to find a way to keep together enregy, focus, desire and will.

Secondly, it would be good to establish a communication range with your pup. The tone of voice can be a great instrument as well as the non verbal body language. A high tone, childish and enthousiast is to be used for congradulations ("Good dog !) with praise (and cookies at first) will teach your pup what pleases you or will understand when something is done right. Normal tone of voice for commands (that tone of voice should inspire the pup to pay attention as after a command comes an action and then a reward) and this can be accompained with hands command (teaches your pup to look at you). The low tone is to be used when the pup does wrong. You may give a correction but more than grabbing the neck isn't needed. This has to be taught when very young and keep up this general setup all the time.

From the very first moment and all its life, play with the dog, go on the floor, invite for play (down on the floor, arms stretched forward, bump up, like a dog playing). Those playtime will make the pup want to bound with you and those moments will be a great occasion to educate at the same time (no bite, etc.) and establish part of that non-verbal communication.

As a pup can be very curious, don't try to break that... but try to be more popular than the distractions surrounding the pup ! Yep, biscuits help a lot !

Some call this "coockie training" but it's all a matter of establishing the relation and communication.

Obedience :

Keep every session very short. Only a few minutes but repeat many times per day.

In the link posted previously, you will find the commands. Here are some elements we do.

- Sit is easy : pup in front of you, a piece of biscuit in your hand, from his nose pass over its head so it has to lift the head to follow the biscuit. This mouvement encourages it to sit so you say "sit". When the pup sits, say "sit" again, give the treat and praise.
- Down : from sit position, piece of biscuit in front of the nose, go under the chin toward the floor. as soon as the pup follows it (head going down), reach the floor and move the biscuit away in front of the pup and say "down" (if you look from the side, this makes an "L" shape). When lying down, say "down" again, treat and praise.
- Here : when calling your pup, be in standing up position, bend down with one arm going to reach the floor (with a piece of biscuit in that hand), make a slight move with your arm to encourage the pup to come and say "here". When the pup reaches you, say "here" again, treat and praise.
- Stay : hmmm, not easy with a pup... so "stay" must be short and lenghten slowly. Stay has to be stay. At first, we don't teach stay then call the pup and treat and praise. Stay starts in front of us and only one step backward (with hand showing like a stop sign). Then we come back to the pup and treat and praise. If the pup has moved, start again, the exercise could have been yet too long. Gradually, we lenghten in time and distance.

The general idea is to make profit out of the opportunism in the nature of pups/dogs. I gave you those commands for example but it extends to all what you teach the dog.

For the obedience and advance training, I think there is a need for a structure so the whole education has a progressive path. Here are 3 books that can get you there :

- Training retrievers for marshes and meadows, by James Spencer (I recommend it for all the basics and progressin toward more technical dog work)
- Positive gun dog, by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen and Susan Smith (we don't use the clicker as they show but it is a great book to understand the mechanic of positive reinforcement)
- Building Retrievers, drills and more, by Carol Cassity (a beautiful book we use giving you a great bunch of drills to teach to your dog to develop its experience and skills). Carol wrote about ecollar in the book but all what is shown can be done without.

As your work to build your retriever advances, the setup from the obedience makes the dog want to work with you. Again, I agree this all asks for a little more time but, IMHO, it is all worth it.

When moving to the proper work, make sure the obedience is tight and steady (all done inside the house, outside in the backyard, along the street, in parcs, etc.). When the pup picks up the bumper on the floor, don't say anything and let it comeback to you (can help with "here" but not more than that). When the pup arrives, trade the bumper with a piece of biscuit and say "give" (sure the pup will trade !). When the pup picks up the little bumper every time, start to introduce "fetch" when he picks it up. There you have the setup for fetch and give. This is play retrieve and if this is conditionned deeply, the dog will be please to pick up and deliver almost anything to your hand. The introduction to the work has to be just a gradual as the obedience, strating at close range in a controled environment (corridor in the house), moving slowly to a larger zone in the house and then work the trasition outside.

The introduction to stop whistle works the same as for "sit" but instead of saying it, you do the hand signal you have chosen and already taught to the pup and blow the whistle (when sitting, treat and praise).

Handling :

As soon as the pup is steady on retrieves, you can move on handling. Drills shown in the books I gave the references of will help building that. What has to be thaught is to start at close range and build distance. So the time between the action and the treat is short at first. When the pup understands the concept, you lenghten the exercise.

Depending on how fast the pup assimilates each concept, it may take several months (may even be a year) before going thru all obedience - retrieve work in marks - handling.

Keys that lead to success in this kind of training (and all others I believe) : patience, persevearence and consistance. When a concept isn't understood, go back to the previous step and make the next step a little less difficult than previously. If there is no step before, revise the concept you are teaching to your pup. You may have made it too complicated for a start so see how you can "split" it in parts to put together later or simplify it.

**************************

I know my English isn't perfect and I made my explainations as clear as possible with the best English I have (still needs to improve). Some words may not be terms... and if so, I'll be pleased to try to explain it differently (and eventually get the right term).

Waow, did I spend half an hour writing all this ! Have to get back to the real life, finish to clean up the whelping box and prepare supper for wife and daughter !


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## MooseMT (Oct 14, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Jeff, what are this particular Amish trainer's goals? What are the reasons that he is choosing to train without an e-collar? What breeding of dog is he training?
> 
> Chris


Chris

My goals are a finished/Master level hunt test level hunting buddy. I am under no time constraints (real or ego driven) to finish him out. My current dog is a Chessie and the next pup will be a Chessie as will be all future dogs that I train, hunt and test with. I chose not to train with an e-collar for a couple of reasons. 1. it is electronic it will break. 2. I have patience and enjoy watching the dog mature and learn through the training process. 3. I have enough gadgets now. 4. I don't mind a little excercise now and then. I have the old standby guides, I was just wondering if there was anything new out there is all.

I don't have anything against e-collars or the guys who train using them. Just nothing l am interested in. In my mind it is the difference between rifle hunters and bow hunters, different methods, different mindset, similar results.

Jeff

Thanks for all your suggestions


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

MooseMT said:


> My goals are a finished/Master level hunt test level hunting buddy. I am under no time constraints (real or ego driven) to finish him out. My current dog is a Chessie and the next pup will be a Chessie as will be all future dogs that I train, hunt and test with. I chose not to train with an e-collar for a couple of reasons. 1. it is electronic it will break. 2. I have patience and enjoy watching the dog mature and learn through the training process. 3. I have enough gadgets now. 4. I don't mind a little excercise now and then. I have the old standby guides, I was just wondering if there was anything new out there is all.
> 
> I don't have anything against e-collars or the guys who train using them. Just nothing l am interested in. In my mind it is the difference between rifle hunters and bow hunters, different methods, different mindset, similar results.
> 
> ...


Jeff, thanks for bringing this subject ! I am not sure I managed to explain correctly the essence of this type of training daugh (please tell me... !) but did my best shot at it ! 

I have trained using only these method in all activities (S&R, OT, HT and hunting), currently finishing SH and running MH with one and running SH with another (younger), finishing CDX with another and working on "pairing" OT's and HT's. As my goal too isn't too a matter of time, our dogs will only finish MH by 3-4 maybe 5 y.o. and all hunt with my wife and I.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

MooseMT said:


> Chris
> 
> My goals are a finished/Master level hunt test level hunting buddy. I am under no time constraints (real or ego driven) to finish him out. My current dog is a Chessie and the next pup will be a Chessie as will be all future dogs that I train, hunt and test with. I chose not to train with an e-collar for a couple of reasons. 1. it is electronic it will break. 2. I have patience and enjoy watching the dog mature and learn through the training process. 3. I have enough gadgets now. 4. I don't mind a little excercise now and then. I have the old standby guides, I was just wondering if there was anything new out there is all.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you have it all figured out.

I've never read Amy and John's book, but I am sure it is great too.

DL Waters book on teaching a dog to handle is another good one for the Amish.

I know some don't like the term, but all "Amish" was meant to say is "without electricity". 

Go get 'em. 

On the part about electronic stuff "breaking", I get it but then again, once a dog is collar trained it does not necessarily mean the collar always needs to be turned on and functional.

I've done it both ways, and for a long time was pretty much dead against using a collar on my dogs in my training. Today, I don't think I'd want to go back. 

I'm not trying to change your mind at all, just sharing what I've found.

Good luck!


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

Peake said:


> Unca'
> 
> Thanks for thinking of me and one of my favorite topics. I've given it a lot of thought and IMHO the best book "program" is actually a two book combination.
> 
> ...


:2c: Nailed it ! These three books.
......Paco


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## MooseMT (Oct 14, 2009)

Merry Christmas all, thanks for all the suggestions. I did order up some new additions to my library.

FT most likely will never be in my goals, too many expensive habits already. Goose hunting is my passion with HT just providing documentation to what we already achieve in the real world.

And

I am not dead set against the e-collar. I did see a horrible example of what a hot headed trainer could do with the old (early 80's model) collars. One particularly nice springer was ruined by this nimrod. But he would have ruined it no matter what training method he used.

Thanks again and I hope you all are having a wonderful christmas day with those near and dear to you.

Jeff


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Same for you Jeff on this Christmas day !

BTW, I'm glad to know someone who shares the same point of view as mine about retriever training methods and goals.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Djanick , there are a couple of us around that still train without a collar, my methods may be a touch different and I dont have the same speed as I used to in my youth, but I am a whole lot smarter and have more patience then in my younger training days, I've also never felt like I was "screwing up" by being a tennis shoe trainer..the method seems to work well for my brother and I..its fun when I train with others and they ask did you forget your collar, do you want to borrow mine,...its all good


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

*http://grca.org/events/field/field_read.html*

You might take a look at the reading list on the website, above. And here's another suggestion for a potential program.


*Finished Dog
*_by Charlie Jurney_

Answers many questions in this easily read book. He lays the groundwork for training a retriever from basics through the finished product. He has solutions for both e-collar and non-collar users. See below for ordering information​


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> Djanick , there are a couple of us around that still train without a collar, my methods may be a touch different and I dont have the same speed as I used to in my youth, but I am a whole lot smarter and have more patience then in my younger training days, I've also never felt like I was "screwing up" by being a tennis shoe trainer..the method seems to work well for my brother and I..its fun when I train with others and they ask did you forget your collar, do you want to borrow mine,...its all good


Over here, we're not that many... an around HT's, I haven't seen any using those methods apart me. So it is nice to know, meet and discuss with people sharing similar point of views !!! Makes me feel a little less "alone" ! As for the rest, as you say "it's all good" (one friend who lives in AZ says that too all the time !)


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

dr_dog_guy said:


> *http://grca.org/events/field/field_read.html*
> 
> You might take a look at the reading list on the website, above. And here's another suggestion for a potential program.
> 
> ...


I have most of Spencer's books. I shall have a look at that list to see if there are others from other writers that meet what I look for ! (and also have a look at those other references given previously... some research work to do ahead in my "not so many spare times" !) Thanks for sharing !


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*ThomasD* posted


> But Martin does use a collar now days.


I know; he has done for years. But the book referenced is wholly collar free, hence the recommendation.

Eug


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

FWIW I have started training one of my Chesapeake puppies from last spring's litter conventionally (i.e. without using an ecollar). Partly I want to prove to myself that I can still do it. Another part of my motivation, though, is to have an example to which I can point when people start going on about how you can only achieve prompt whistle sits or this or that other thing by means of an ecollar, and I disagree. IMO the collar is a great tool, but not all that it's cracked up to be.

So, now that I've been really rash and announced this publicly, we'll see how far I get with it.

The conventional puppy is Purple. Her littermates are Lily and Pink (and John's two, Rocky and Tiger).

Amy Dahl


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Facinating...!


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Amy if you recall I pm you about quick sits without collar. Well if you had any drills. I have tried everything and still not getting sits at long distances I want. Still interested??


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Back to Basics by Robert Milner is another great one to check out.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

BonMallari said:


> Ken I refuse to support Nike,Converse quality has gone way downhill and I use New Balance for my everyday athletic shoe....but old school TST (tennis shoe trainers) like myself prefer to use the latest in technology in shoes..I prefer Keen, Merrell, or Columbia..I find I get better traction on wet grass and am able to change direction easier over uneven terrain, I also prefer the 3/4 top models for added ankle support


do you wear a full set of pads, or just your leather helmet Bon?

napoleon dynomite regards,


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> do you wear a full set of pads, or just your leather helmet Bon?
> 
> napoleon dynomite regards,


wrong sport..it was Jack Kramer wooden tennis rackets until I discovered golf then it was persimmon drivers with steel shafts...Now I play graphite shafts with titanium heads but I still prefer forged blades in my irons...

classic rock music regards


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## terrycuyler (Jan 5, 2009)

Hello, there, fellow "naked" trainers - those training without or with minimal e-collar useage. I am thrilled to be able to talk about this and find out how others are doing things. I would also like to mention Lorie Jolly who achieved an AFTCH on her Golden Retriever w/ mainly positive motivation. There is another list on Yahoo on positive gun dog training but I haven't been on it in awhile. I have Senior Hunter and Seasoned on two dogs, but never quite got to the higher levels, so I'm interested in fine tuning my skills on new puppy - now 8 months old. Hope we hear more from Amy Dahl and how she is progressing. Also the British Gundog Club has a series of manuals which describe positive methods of training retrievers and versatile breeds without the use of an e-collar. I find what I need is structure and a step by step plan instead of jumping around. I see Spencer mentioned here and I'll try that. Then where it is suggested that an e-collar be used for correction, I will back up and simplify and re-teach until the dog has it. Someone mentioned the sit at a distance. I've had trouble in the past with this too, but this time I've found it working to send puppy (8 months) out towards a target (not always a bumper) and whistle/sit and when he turns around I throw bumper of bird or frisbee. The 'sit' then becomes the means by which he gets what he wants. Sit means good things fly through the air. To get it farther away because I throw badly, I am going to use a surprise launcher to get the 'bird' way out there when he sits. Something I picked up at a Jolly seminar. AND, I am going to corral myself and only progress a few yards at a time, not go from 'sit' at 10 yds to 'sit' at 60 yds. I also want to try leaving dog on a stand stay at a distance,(perhaps tethered) and blow sit whistle. Also know its easier to train a 'sit' coming towards me before I ask dog to barrelling out with me behind blowing a sit whistle. That will come later. But first, I need to clean the launcher. Happy training this season. And keep those suggestions coming for working out problems w/o the e-collar. Hope we can all get suggestions from each other. Sorry to be so long.

Terry


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

I have been blundering around attempting to develop some positive training protocols for 
retriever training. Here are a few video clips illustrating some of it:


Lizzie gets steadiness lesson with clicker – bridging from food reward to retrieve reward
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWoZgrn76b8

Fixing a delivery to hand issue with checkcord, treats, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCtlRAGnsdU

Rufus gets reinforcements for whistle stops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkk4q02VqDI

Rufus gets high value reinforcer (tennis ball) for stopping on way to dummy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB9VkpQ3LEU

Gin gets reinforcement with tennis ball for whistle stops and casts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M2pjr9Vngs

Jake – learning diversion blinds – leaving short obvious falls to go for long unseen fall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfSsV02r738

Jake - Diversion blind, higher distraction level with shots – Jake learns to leave short obvious falls and go to long unseen fall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42UnIqUqyWE

Rufus casts away from short diversion marks to long unseen fall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX06eaVQLcU

Rufus handles away from short diversion marks to long unseen fall with shots added to increase distraction level
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3qeXEiMMKs


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

I also heard about someone who works with the "amish" approach. Anyone know him, his name is Frank Plewa. Has he wrote a book. I heard that he gives seminars on low pressure training in Pensylvania...


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## terrycuyler (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks, RMilner. I just took your book off my shelf and will be re-reading it. Appreciate your input and time....and now I have the videos you posted links to to illustrate.
tlc


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I went to the Frank Plewa and Paul Young seminar. Frank and Paul are the real thing. I don't call them amish I call them readers of dogs. What I like about Frank and Paul no talk watch their dogs. They have gotten the max and perfection out of them. Just wish they had more seminars. They have great ideas. Frank and Paul in my book are the only true non collar experts. Though I have been told that a canadian national finisher is trained without a collar.

I have seen Milnar's video's for me I don't like them.


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## Ron Bonneau (Nov 18, 2009)

moscowitz said:


> I went to the Frank Plewa and Paul Young seminar. Frank and Paul are the real thing. I don't call them amish I call them readers of dogs. What I like about Frank and Paul no talk watch their dogs. They have gotten the max and perfection out of them. Just wish they had more seminars. They have great ideas. Frank and Paul in my book are the only true non collar experts. Though I have been told that a canadian national finisher is trained without a collar.
> 
> I have seen Milnar's video's for me I don't like them.


You just don't like them ? Care to explain?


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Rather not videos speak for themselves.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

moscowitz said:


> Amy if you recall I pm you about quick sits without collar. Well if you had any drills. I have tried everything and still not getting sits at long distances I want. Still interested??


Sorry, it is especially easy to procrastinate on answers that "require thought." I don't know if I've got a good solution or not. My objection to the belief that the collar is necessary for prompt sits is that I don't use it for that, at least not for most of them. I don't have a drill for it, either. I don't know if my dogs sit well because of my overall training sequence, or my handling style. It just rarely seems to be an issue.

If you want, though, I'll take a shot at it. Do you want to post your question here, or give me permission to copy it from the pm? 

Amy Dahl


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Thank you for your reply. You can copy it. I have gone back to short distances - no problem. I have run him along fence line on his left since he turns left - fine. Have even hand thrown bumpers short distance he takes off whistle sit - fine. It's those long distances with a good initial line running for a long time and then the sit. Not quick and very very loopy. It takes him off line. I do not run out to him. Corrrection would be to late. I do double whistle that helps or yell NO. Help!!!


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## Ron Bonneau (Nov 18, 2009)

moscowitz said:


> Rather not videos speak for themselves.


Well if there is something wrong with his videos or methods shouldn't us newbies know?


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

Howdy, I've been lurking on RTF for quite a while; I'm excited to see a discussion about non-ecollar retriever training as I think this style of training will work for my dogs. I have two St Poodles that I'm currently training for hunting and maybe NAHRA and HRC tests in the future.

While I'm a newbie to hunting (city girl) and training retrievers; I have dabbled in Shutzhund and Ring Sport in the past. That said, there's always something new to learn when working with animals.

I recently purchased the Wildrose DVD; and newbies (like me!) might find it good way to train a GUNDOG using low force. It's pretty basic, but I found that my dogs responded to the training with renewed energy and confidence. That may have been because the DVD forced me to clean up my [email protected] handling!(that's good for newbies!) and the trainer's strong suggestion to use canvas bumpers w/feathers attached (that's good for dogs!) made a huge difference. My dogs are now excitedly flying out for 100-200yd retieves and driving hard on back casts.(no angle backs) I'm thrilled!

However, I didn't think I got enough info on lining and running cold blinds and advanced lining concepts. I HAVE TO THANK YOU FOLKS HERE ON RTF for bridging the gap with info on pivots, wagon wheel drill (my dogs love that one),doubling the distance on blinds (brillant!) etc. Poodles really seem to want to go around hazards(cheating?) in the field I'm really going to have to break that concept down when the snow finally melts if I want to run hunt tests. With more time and practice we just might get there!

Geesh! This is getting long! Useful books and other info: As already stated:

*Vic Barlow, British Training for American Retrievers* FYI: I think he will be at a Wildrose clinic next year. 

*Training Retrievers with Nigel Mann* - A nice basic British Style retriever program but he leaves long retrieves towards the end and with my breed, Poodles, you need to get them out on long retrieves earlier or they will hunt short and that could be a problem. I mixed short and long right from the get go.

Hope some of this info was helpful. Happy New Year!


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## dixidawg (Jan 5, 2003)

Desiree said:


> . Poodles really seem to want to go around hazards(cheating?) in the field I'm really going to have to break that concept down when the snow finally melts if I want to run hunt tests.


Don't wait for snow to melt! Use snowbanks as obstacles and teach them the concepts on snow. I used plowed parking lots and had them go up and over snow banks at varying angles to teach them to hold a line through an obstacle.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Don't know what you got until to run a hunt test or field trial. Of all the books on the market Farmer, Smartworks, Rorem, Lardy you settle for British training?? Oh yeah my favorite is Retriever on line. Colloar or no collar these are worth reading. And there are more.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Desiree said:


> Howdy, I've been lurking on RTF for quite a while; I'm excited to see a discussion about non-ecollar retriever training as I think this style of training will work for my dogs. I have two St Poodles that I'm currently training for hunting and maybe NAHRA and HRC tests in the future.
> 
> While I'm a newbie to hunting (city girl) and training retrievers; I have dabbled in Shutzhund and Ring Sport in the past. That said, there's always something new to learn when working with animals.
> 
> ...


Yep, there are ways to get there with low force. Like anything else, there are different things for different tastes ! In the past 10 years, we'v worked our dogs with those type of methods and it works.

First, having a solid obediece for a start makes things easier when we get on more advanced field work. The dogs learn to stay "in contact" with us. During that period, we build up also the communication concept with the tone of voice (as I explained previously).

Second, when moving to those advanced drills to build retrievers, we use the drills proposed in Carol Cassity book but not to begin with. We take each drill, make them simpler (simplifying the concepts to teach to the dogs) and then build up the drill to get to the final result. That "decomposition" of each drill allows any corrections to be done from the start (distances are short, low cover, etc.) and builds up the dogs confidence.

We do all the same with the blind concept. wistle stop (building thru walking at heel making a stop wistle and hve the dog sit, also in obedience in the "sit" teaching, then on call back at short distance and add distance gradually), wagon wheel, scale, line to the pile, hot short blinds getting longer and longer, baseball field for teaching directions, "T" and double "T" drills. We work with as many different "components" as possible before putting all together and when putted together,there again we take all back to the basics and build up.

Have a great time with you st. poodle and please post about the progress !!! (And a couple of pictures... I have seen one st. poodle at work in Quebec province and they are beauties to see !!!).


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> Yep, there are ways to get there with low force.


Depends on how you define "there."


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Depends on how you define "there."


Is it really of any consequence to you how anyone other than you defines it for yourself and they for them self ?.

In this context _*there*_ is where one wants to be is it not ?

john


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Is it really of any consequence to you how anyone other than you defines it for yourself and they for them self ?.
> 
> In this context _*there*_ is where one wants to be is it not ?
> 
> john


Thanks John... I don't think I need to add anything, you've said it all.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ladies and gentlemen,

Was this thread about Amish training or low pressure training ?

I just received an email from some one on this forum and I DON'T APPRECIATE THIS KIND OF STUFF.

Let's make it straight :

- I don't crap on people's head because they use ecollar and I don't... so don't come and crap on my head.
- I do respect people's choices and opinions, that I agree or not on the subject.
- Even if a e-collar company offered me a million dollars to use and promote that taining method and accessory, I would refuse categorically. Why ? It is called INTEGRITY.
- Even if you bring me every single experience that has braught the best results in the world, there will be other examples that will be on my side... (and there are)
- I still stick to my guns.

Have I made myself clear ?

So, with all due respect, if you don't agree with me, we can discuss and if we still don't agree at the end, well, we'll call it off, that's all.

Thank you for your attention and civilized understanding.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> Yep, there are ways to get *there* with low force.


I still don't believe that you have told us what "there" is - or, to put it another way - what you are trying to accomplish - whether that be with a collar or not.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I still don't believe that you have told us what "there" is - or, to put it another way - what you are trying to accomplish - whether that be with a collar or not.


What is your point Ted ? Testing my patience ? As being an "amish" trainer, I have alot...

Get back to the orginial message from the person that owns a st. poodle (which was quoted on my message) and get yourself on proper reading : what is her goal ? Don't you think that "there" ment "her goals".

You really make me smile Ted !


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> Was this thread about Amish training or low pressure training ?
> 
> ...


I'm not clear. 

Is this quoted post about an email, or is it about a PM (private message) sent via RTF?

Thanks, Chris


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> What is your point Ted ?


My point is this.
 
You seem to think that I am trying to belittle your accomplishments or your efforts without the collar. I am not. Rather, I am just trying to figure out what they are. Which is why I ask you what "there" means to you. 

If as you say that there are many ways to get "there", I have to wonder where there is.

If there is getting a dog to sit without a collar, my 11 week puppy does so.
If there is getting a dog to come without a collar, my 11 week puppy does so.
If there is getting a dog to heel without a collar, my 11 week puppy does so.

Your accomplishments without a collar would not be very interesting to me, if there is what is listed above.

If you said, without a collar, I have obtained a 
- MH
- Qualifying 2nd/3rd
- Amateur or Open placement
- FC or AFC

Your accomplishments and techniques would be more interesting to me.

Now, of course, you could say that it is nobody's business what "there" is. But, if that is the case, why bother to tell everyone that you can get "there" without a collar?

Ted


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'm not clear.
> 
> Is this quoted post about an email, or is it about a PM (private message) sent via RTF?
> 
> Thanks, Chris


Hi Chris,

Sorry, I thought I mentione it.. It was about an email I received from someone on this forum... and just wished to have this kind of phenomenom stop straight away... I've been respectful toward everyone and I don't think I diserve any disrespect. Thanks for your comprehension...


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ted, my explaination about "there" was clear and simple, no need to try to find any other meanig in that posted reply, it was all about her goal.

FT's, I don' run any. First, there are none in Quebe Province, second, I have no interest in those. End of story. Second, I am not out here to try to convince anyone about anything, just givig another point of view (and this thread is all about that I believe). But, as you seem in need of somthing about titles, I run a SH that will be running MH next summer (maybe the one after if our baby is borned at the begining of the summer) and this is all done like I've explained previously. Nohing great, nothing BETTER than anyone else, just a different way to get THERE. All drills used are the same. The initial setup in communication is different and the bulding progress is made with little steps at the time.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Here is my definition of "There".

The Excellent Gundog

To train a gundog, you first must know what you want the finished product to be. Here is my definition.

I want first and foremost a dog that sits calmly and quietly where he is put, so that I can enjoy the duck hunt, rather than having to keep half my attention focused on the dog. Regardless of the temptation, be it 100 ducks working close or be it 3 shotguns blasting at full bore, my ideal duck dog sits quietly until sent to retrieve.

Secondly I want a dog that will get the mallard that is dropped 75 yards out in the buck brush (generally 2 to 4 ft tall and thick enough to hide a dog after he is 5 or 10 feet into it) and I'm not quite sure of the exact location, and it is a cripple and swimming off.

Thirdly when we drop 3 ducks dead in front of the blind, and a fourth duck (that the dog didn't see) sails off two or three hundred yards into the woods or brush or lake, I want a dog that will handle quickly away from the dead ducks and out to the general area of the cripple, which he tracks down and captures. 

Fourthly, on blind retrieves when the wind is high and/or the dog is lunging thru shallow water, or swimming thru ocean waves and wind, so that whistle signals can't be heard, I want a dog that looks back unbidden occasionally for direction. Similarly, when he is hidden from sight in buckbrush or trees I want him without bidding to occasionally seek a spot where he can see me to check in for further direction. 
Also, if we are killing a lot of ducks and the water is very cold, and there is a land route available that minimizes the dogs exposure in cold water, I want him to take the dryest route to conserve his body heat and stamina. 
When I am hunting on the bank of a swift running river and kill a duck that is floating downstream with the current, I want a dog that has enough sense to run down the bank and get below the duck before bailing into the water for the retrieve.

Fifth, for upland game I want a dog that stays within 15 yards as he hunts in front of me so that all the birds flush within range. I also want the dog to sit to flush so that some over-anxious fool doesn't blow his head off.

On upland work, in addition to remaining within 15 yards, the great pheasant dog sticks to the trail of a cripple regardless of distraction. When you knock down a runner in a sugar beet field and the dog gets on his trail, he should stay on that cripple's trail. When the dog flushes a fresh bird he should, at most, watch it fly off as he continues to diligently pursue the trail of the wounded bird.


My goal is to produce this ideal gundog with zero force. I am not there yet, but I am getting closer every week.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

rmilner said:


> Here is my definition of "There".
> 
> To train a gundog, you first must know what you want the finished product to be. Here is my definition.
> 
> ...


Bingo

Even if I disagree with the method of accomplishing the target, I understand what the target is.

Thank you.

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> Ted, my explaination about "there" was clear and simple, no need to try to find any other meanig in that posted reply, it was all about her goal.


I would say that neither were clear or simple.

Milner's is not simple, but it is clear.


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## muddyruner (Feb 24, 2009)

very well put Mr. Milner


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I would say that neither were clear or simple.


In a conversation,when someone says something, what you will answer will refer to the initial statement. That person wants to hunt with the dog, may be run HRC and NARHA. This is her goal, I said that those methods that were discussed as well as others can get her there. Not simple ? Not clear ? I really don't know what you are looking for lad and neither you and I understand each other...


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ted,

Are you asking what is my definition of "there" ? (in another word, my goals ?)

- No FT's
- CAN SH and MH, may be some CAN WC's
- Reliable* hunting retriever in varous hunting conditions I encounter (at sea, on lakes, time to time in marshes, on rivers, in fields, all migratory birds and, rarely, some upland in a private club).
- Obedient, well behaved therapy assistant
- Day to day faithful family companion

*Reliable (again, for our use and to our eyes) : manage to pick up all birds shot, respond to commands (from obedience to handling on blinds), steady, consistant, good self control, confident.

Now, if you don't feel that I've answered well your question (which isn't clear at all either), please provide me an extensive example (from yourself), of what you are looking for.

Tell me Ted, how could a dog reach your goals by using methods that have been refered in this thread (books, drills, mehods, etc.) ?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> *1) Ladies and gentlemen,*
> 
> *Was this thread about Amish training or low pressure training ?*
> 
> ...


OK Djanick,

Numbers were was added by me.

1) You yourself wrote that you did not like the term Amish and wanted to call it something else and write about something that was without an e-collar but was not called "Amish". It can be called what you like.

2) I have been contacted by the author of the email that you are upset about. If you do not want to receive respectfully submitted emails, that attempt to discuss topics about which you post on the internet, I have two suggestions:

First, you may not want to post your website URL in your posts. This is likely where he got your email address, to which he likely suspected you welcomed communication.

Second, you may not want to post your opinions on the net on a dog training website.

3) My friend that sent you the email does not "crap on" anyone. I believe he had sent a very well-intended email to you, about which you had several options on how to respond. One, ignore it. Two, reply directly via email. I really think the way you chose to respond by addressing it here on RTF is extreme and will affect your credibility on this resource going forward.

4) "Integrity" has nothing to do with it. I was actually one of the original presenters requested at the Amish retriever seminar put on by Paul Young and Frank Plewa. My integrity has nothing to do with whether I do, or do not choose to use an electronic collar in my personal training. 

By the way, the term "Amish" was coined by myself here on RTF in the late 90's. All that it meant was "without electricity".

I am currently training a rescue dog without a collar, but am about to collar condition this dog. I personally doubt that I will train any well-bred retriever going forward without the use of a modern e-collar program and a good quality adjustable intensity collar as part of my repertoire. I had a few NAHRA and HRC titled dogs during my Amish days. I honestly believe they would have performed better, more reliably, more confidently, and with less "mental pressure", had I used a modern program that utilized the e-collar.

Perhaps there is a bit of a language barrier taking place here as well. I have some colleagues in Quebec and I am well aware of some of the communication lapses that occur, especially via emai and electronic (typewritten) correspondence.

I know for a fact that the submitter of the email to you meant no ill-will, no disrespect, and certainly did not intend for a public rant about it on RTF.

Sincerely,

Chris Atkinson


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> - Even if a e-collar company offered me a million dollars to use and promote that taining method and accessory, I would refuse categorically. Why ? It is called INTEGRITY.
> - Even if you bring me every single experience that has braught the best results in the world, there will be other examples that will be on my side... (and there are)
> - I still stick to my guns.
> 
> ...


 
I suggest you review your own saying 

"Believing that our vision of the reality is the only reality that exsits is the most dangerous illusion" (Watzlawick)


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> OK Dominick,
> 
> Numbers were was added by me.
> 
> ...


Hi Chris,

(my first name is Djanick... not Domininc...  )

Your friend you are talking about and I have exchanged 2 emails actually. I misunderstood the first and presented my apologies (check with him). He is a gentleman and that was not about him.

I don't think it will happen again very often Chris that I receive such disrespectful emails. I do believe that humans can be civilized and understand at a minimum what is respecting other point of views. Also, I have not been taught and raised to fear (this may not be the best way to say this... just read the genereal idea) and avoid to speak because of that.

The term "Amish" doesn't sound right to my ears as in my culture, borrowing a name from another context to give it to a new one can be something "rude" (could be a better word to say what I want but this one was the closest). as I understand, in English, it doesn't have the same impact. Low pressure training sounds ok, positive training too. Hoestly, I don't know what would be best but understanding that "Amish" has no negative meaning, I can adapt to that term.

Yep, I allow you the point of the language (and I am aware of some limits and miss understanding that can occure) but some terms are well known to be pretty bad... and those were present.

Thanks for taking that moment to try to clear out this.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> Ted,
> 
> Are you asking what is my definition of "there" ? (in another word, my goals ?)
> 
> ...


I want a dog that I can compete with and win in the Open and All Age Stakes, that will be competitive in the National Open and National Amateur Competitions. The list of skills required for these goals is more than I have either the time or desire to prepare.

As for whether these goals can be accomplished in a timely fashion without a collar or any other negative techniques, I doubt it. But, I am open to the possibility that it can be accomplished.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I suggest you review your own saying
> 
> "Believing that our vision of the reality is the only reality that exsits is the most dangerous illusion" (Watzlawick)


Never... why ? I never denied that there are other ways, have I ?


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

moscowitz said:


> Thank you for your reply. You can copy it. I have gone back to short distances - no problem. I have run him along fence line on his left since he turns left - fine. Have even hand thrown bumpers short distance he takes off whistle sit - fine. It's those long distances with a good initial line running for a long time and then the sit. Not quick and very very loopy. It takes him off line. I do not run out to him. Corrrection would be to late. I do double whistle that helps or yell NO. Help!!!


I remember your PM but can't find it. I think the description you just gave is pretty clear, though. Your dog is running a long way on a good initial line, feeling good, thinking success, and then *tweet* total change of scenario--unwelcome. He gives a reluctant-looking response.

Apply all appropriate caveats here as I haven't seen the dog, am not familiar with the training you have done to this point, etc., etc.

Based on what you say, if this happened to me, and if I felt I'd given the dog a good foundation to this point, I would not sweat over the slow sits. I would train for understanding, confidence, and style on blinds, and expect the whistle sits to take care of themselves. When your dog recognizes that the whistle could lead to quick success, rather than an unwanted intrusion on something that *feels* successful, his response will improve. YMMV.

I would review your training, asking yourself if that whistle predicts your getting bogged down with a lot of casts before your dog gets the dummy. Maybe it doesn't--maybe you're just in such an early stage he hasn't yet learned to expect anything good from it. Try to make the whistle lead to success. You might also blow it a bit sooner, before he gets quite so attached to his joy in running the initial line. There is a lot more, of course, to training for confidence and style; I couldn't begin to fit it all in here.

I want to make clear my participation in this thread does NOT mean I endorse the idea that training without the ecollar equates to "low force" or in any way "kinder" training. 

Amy Dahl


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> Never... why ? I never denied that there are other ways, have I ?


To say that using the collar lacks integrity hardly demonstrates an open mind.

I suspect your cup is too full to accept alternative paths.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I want a dog that I can compete with and win in the Open and All Age Stakes, that will be competitive in the National Open and National Amateur Competitions. The list of skills required for these goals is more than I have either the time or desire to prepare.
> 
> As for whether these goals can be accomplished in a timely fashion without a collar or any other negative techniques, I doubt it. But, I am open to the possibility that it can be accomplished.


Well, have you taken a path, method, etc. that led you to your results ?

As for the time needed to get all training done to reach those titles you're telling me about, I haven't got a clue. May take a while (?), a lifetime, I don't know. For the goals that were said by others, reachable in reasonable time. So, what worked for you may simply be the way to keep.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> To say that using the collar lacks integrity hardly demonstrates an open mind.
> 
> I suspect your cup is too full to accept alternative paths.


Have I said that using ecollar is a lack of integrity ?????????? Either I have wrote the wrong way my idea, picked up the wrong term (cultural or language differences) or you may be misreading.

To what I know, integrity is "believing, thinking, saying and doing" in the same direction (no conflict between those elements).

Now that this was explained, if we step back on the initial statement, I was expressing that if a ecollar company offere me a million to use and promote the methd and material, I wouldn't as it s not in my values (in the way I ment the term integrity). So, please take second for another read and understanding... and no need for quick judgment about what I write, take a moment just to make sure of what I mean (asking questions). If terms I used were not the correct one and someone is willing to tell me the right one, I'll be really glad ! I told everyone that I am willing to improve my English !


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Djanick,
Is the “D” silent?
Doesn’t matter, following this thread in it’s entirety I can see how a bit of a language barrier has not helped. Lets use a common language we may share (maybe not share but I can’t imagine it)….. Hockey! 
Training dogs is like hockey, in my opinion. 
Imagine your playing defense, a forward comes right at you across the blue line and advancing fast. You try a flashy stick handling steal attempt and get scored upon. What have you taught that forward? He can do what he wants with you as long as he endures your feeble stick technique. 
He comes again and this time you put a hit on him. A hard hit, legal and fair. No time in the box for you but you come away with the puck while he works on getting to his feet. What have you taught that forward this time? Respect, he cannot walk all over you, there will be consequences. You did not abuse the forward, you did not drop gloves and fight, but you did put one hard hit.

Now take this to dog training. One of the first things I was taught by my mentors in Stanbridge East, Quebec, was to not nag your dogs. Don’t just tap tap tap, hit once and mean it. I am not saying to anyone to “BEAT” a dog. But make your corrections mean something otherwise they are just feeble stick handling attempts for your dog to put up with while it does what it wants anyway, Scoring on you.

Now factor in the electric training dog collar. Nothing works better, in my opinion, in giving a fair firm correction at distance, than the E-collar. It is just progress. Of course dog abusers can use it improperly, just as they are able to do with a stick or rope or chain or marble or rat shot.

Integrity, Beliefs, Ethics, Honor and Respect…. They can all be held high or totally ignored and it matters not what tool you use.
The Hockey rink can be made fresh with buckets of water poured on by kids….. or a Zamboni………. But nether will make the home team win.

.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> Let's make it straight :
> 
> - I don't crap on people's head because they use ecollar and I don't... so don't come and crap on my head.
> 
> ...


You say that you don't crap on other people
Yet, you say that you would not use a collar because of INTEGRITY

*in⋅teg⋅ri⋅ty*  /ɪnˈtɛg







ti/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [in-*teg*-ri-tee]  Show IPA 

Use *integrity* in a Sentence


See web results for *integrity*


See images of *integrity*

*–noun *1.adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.2.the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: _to preserve the integrity of the empire. _3.a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: _the integrity of a ship's hull. _

*Origin: *
1400–50; late ME _integrite_ < L _integritās._ See integer, -ity









*Synonyms:
1. *rectitude, probity, virtue. See honor. 



You say that you do not - and would not - use a collar because of integrity ... this is akin to saying that you do no - and will not use a collar because of your honesty or adherence to moral or ethical principles

This, of course, implies that people who choose another course 
are not honest, and do not adhere to moral or ethical principles

This is what some view as your crapping on people's heads who use collars


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> To what I know, integrity is "believing, thinking, saying and doing" in the same direction (no conflict between those elements).


See discussion of integrity above
Your use of the word is inaccurate and improper

I do not know how we are to know that you are using words improperly

And I think you may have taken offense at someone's email (not mine as I have not written to you other than here) because of your failure to understand the nuances of the language


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> You say that you do not - and would not - use a collar because of integrity ... this is akin to saying that you do no - and will not use a collar because of your honesty or adherence to moral or ethical principles
> 
> This, of course, implies that people who choose another course
> are not honest, and do not adhere to moral or ethical principles
> ...


 
That is exactly how it reads to me Ted yet; I feel this is not his intent. I do not know why at this time, just a feeling I have.
 Did you see my hockey example? We posted at the same time. 
Go Hab's!!

.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> That is exactly how it reads to me Ted yet; I feel this is not his intent. I do not know why at this time, just a feeling I have.
> .


Ken

You may or may not be correct. I do not know

However, if I knew that my understanding of a second language was limited, I would be less aggressive in what I wrote and what I directed at others

Ted


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> Ken
> 
> You may or may not be correct. I do not know
> 
> ...


Yes, on this I agree. 
Conversely I know how frustrated I get. Sitting at the kitchen table in Quebec, after an afternoon of dog training. When everybody at the table is speaking French and I am the only one left out of the loop. So just a skooch more slack I am willing to give.... for now 

.


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

MooseMT said:


> I don't have anything against e-collars or the guys who train using them. Just nothing l am interested in. In my mind it is the difference between rifle hunters and bow hunters, different methods, different mindset, similar results.


Probably closer to the difference between hunters using a recurve vs. compound bow.


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

Redgolden said:


> I also heard about someone who works with the "amish" approach. Anyone know him, his name is Frank Plewa. Has he wrote a book. I heard that he gives seminars on low pressure training in Pensylvania...


How come not using a collar is looked at as "Low Pressure Training"? Does that mean that using a collar is "High Pressure Training"? 

Is this just "carry over" from the days of a one button transmittor? Thus, a lack of understanding of modern collar training? 

I look at "amish" training as simply using todays training techniques without the use of the collar. The amount of pressure really has nothing to do with the tool used but rather the infraction and personality of the dog.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Djanick,
> Is the “D” silent?
> Doesn’t matter, following this thread in it’s entirety I can see how a bit of a language barrier has not helped. Lets use a common language we may share (maybe not share but I can’t imagine it)….. Hockey!
> Training dogs is like hockey, in my opinion.
> ...


I'm sure that these folks have already weighed the pros and cons of training with the e-collar. The OP asked a question IN English about the best "Amish" training method . A group of Amish, P+, Low pressure, and the like, devotees joined in with dialogue and suggestions for the location of information. You post the above .With English being your primary language,what part of the OP's question did you not understand......

I asked in an earlier thread, is the RTF open to all types and styles of Retriever training .......apparently in some minds it is not.

BTW If you would like to debate the pros and cons, try this thread http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?p=542393#post542393

john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

john fallon said:


> You post the above .With English being your primary language,what part of the OP's question did you not understand......
> 
> 
> 
> john


John,
Threads branch off, evolve, and take on different meanings all the time. YOU know this and participate in it all the time. I was not addressing the original post thread starter at all. Hence the “Djanick” as first word. I was addressing his (Djanick’s) participation in the thread and his difficulty saying what I feel he is trying to say. You, on the other hand are just stirring it as usual. Bitching, moaning and complaining about your usual nothing all the while trying to pick apart others helpful posts. Why are you always such a Fallon? 
Do you want me on your ass? Do you want me to pick apart every post you submit? Checking for quality and content and how it addresses the particular post? I have the day off and was going out to do dog stuff but I am more than willing to just sit here and scrutinize your every typed word. Is that what you would like John? When was the last time you posted something helpful, friendly, thoughtful or even relevant to the discussion at hand???
This is not a rhetorical question John. Go scroll through your posts and tell me the last time you helped somebody. I’ll be here waiting, it may take you a while.

.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> John,
> I have the day off and was going out to do dog stuff
> 
> .



Lucky arse...I gotta go to work in a bit....grrrrrr

But....have to take off early so I can watch the Aggie$ & Georgia in the bowl game at 4pm.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Why are you always such a Fallon?
> 
> 
> .


He wasn't always that way. But, he wasn't that far off, either. 

Once upon a time, not so long ago, Fallon became Falcon.

But Falcon's posts were so negative and critical, that people immediately knew that Falcon was Fallon. Falcon, like Fallon (with apologies to the late William Safire) were "nattering nabobs of negativity."


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Gentlemen,

I admit that the language barrier is something hard to get over (even more with the Internet). As most of what I tried to say was read as if this was an English person that was writing, all this went in all directions but not the one I ment. So I call it off and I won't persue in the subject.

For the ones who cared, putted their mind to figure what I ment and tried to help, thanks.


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## MooseMT (Oct 14, 2009)

sheriff said:


> Probably closer to the difference between hunters using a recurve vs. compound bow.


Yes you are probably closer in that example.

Hey Djanick don't get discouraged by the negative posts. In every forum there are those who just like to drag things down. 

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions on the original question.

Jeff


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Hi evryone,

Well, I can admit without a doubt that I presented my point the wrong way due to a certain language barrier and cultural background. Fortunately, as I have experienced that in many countries (Germany, England, Italy), the work to make something well understood is hard and twisted... but with anyone that desires to give a hand, there will always be a positive ending : better unerstanding, language improvement, etc.

To get to 99% of a language, it takes quite some time. My English in general is far from there (and I know my writing isn't as good as my speach, which isn't perfect either). When I came back from England 20 years ago, it was all better than it is at the moment. So, hopefully, I'll catch back what I lost and bring my writing to a better level.

--------------

Jeff

thanks for the encouragment ! To make any progress, someone has to not let down and persevere... with all its ups and downs that occures.

--------------

Someone sent me this morning the descritpion of "Amish" training and I realize that it wasn't quite what I do (again, a miss uderstanding of a term). I don't use pinch collar and all others like that. At the most, our dogs have a belt type strap collar. What I do would be much closer to what is done in the clicker method : reinforcing good behavior and ignoring bad ones so on the long term, only good ones come back as the dog understands that he doesn't get a treat when he des wrong (this is an explaination with the best English I can write at the moment).


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ken Bora said:


> That is exactly how it reads to me Ted yet; I feel this is not his intent. I do not know why at this time, just a feeling I have.
> Did you see my hockey example? We posted at the same time.
> Go Hab's!!
> 
> .


I confirm you that this wasn't what I ment. This integrity I called was just about myself : being in integrity with what I think, what I say and what I do made me choose to work with no ecollar. This same term can be used by anyone (on any basis) where thoughts, speaches and actions head the same direction. If someone's thougts (or beliefs), speach and actions are in the same direction, this is called intergrity. In no way I ment any accusations...

Again, I am trying to bring the right meaning of all that and hope we can resolve the miss understanding.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Djanick,

Regarding the language barrier, "Amish" as a description for training without electricity is likely less shocking or impactful than terming Terry's email as "crapping on" you! 

Happy New Year...here's to getting "there" in 2010 with our dogs and our hobbies.

Chris


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

this was actually the longest running 'amish" thread i have seen where people didn't get on the bashing or you have to use force/collar bandwagon. think it actually went to page 7 or so before it got ugly. 

Pretty good from a historical marker.

Ted & Ken, re: the "integrity" remark. they way i read it and believe it was intended was - he will not use the e-collar if someone paid him to. he will not use it because he has been a 'amish' or positive trainer. the integrity comes in because he will not sell out his positive training beliefs for $$$. 

I didn't read it as people that use e-collar have no integrity.

lets get full circle and leave this thread with amish training positive input. it's been a good thread.


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

I will revisit a question I posed earlier. Why does "Amish" = "Positive". Just because there is no electricity doesn't mean the it is "Positive". Or does it? The horor stories I have heard from the day before the collar don't shound so positive to me.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

When I here Amish I always think how Amish parents deal with their kids and animals,,, old fashion like,,,,,, I think now a days many have secretly buried phone and utlity lines where no one can find them

Electricity is hush hush for some,,,closet collar users

Pete


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## MooseMT (Oct 14, 2009)

I believe there are positive e-collar trainers out there too, along with heavy handed non-ecollar trainers.

Just because you do or don't use just one of many training tools available doesn't really catigorize your training method.

Jeff


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

sheriff said:


> I will revisit a question I posed earlier. Why does "Amish" = "Positive". Just because there is no electricity doesn't mean the it is "Positive". Or does it? The horor stories I have heard from the day before the collar don't shound so positive to me.


To the most I now understand, one doesn't necesserally equals the second ("Amish=Positive"). This is the reason why I braught the precision that my training was probably closer to clicker method than to "amish" one. So your question is good and would be great to develop on the subject. But before doing so, i'll put myself back together and try to figure again how I can bring my opinion and experience and avoid as much as possible the miss understandings...


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

MooseMT said:


> I believe there are positive e-collar trainers out there too, along with heavy handed non-ecollar trainers.
> 
> Just because you do or don't use just one of many training tools available doesn't really catigorize your training method.
> 
> Jeff


Sounds pretty true !


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> I confirm you that this wasn't what I ment. This integrity I called was just about myself : being in integrity with what I think, what I say and what I do made me choose to work with no ecollar. This same term can be used by anyone (on any basis) where thoughts, speaches and actions head the same direction. If someone's thougts (or beliefs), speach and actions are in the same direction, this is called intergrity. In no way I ment any accusations...


RG

With all due respect, I think you are milking this language barrier issue somewhat. You were very agressive in your post in which you claimed that someone had "crapped" on you. As someone who knows his language skills are deficient, would it not behoove you to think twice before posting?

You continue to misuse the word "integrity"

I suggest you consult the dictionary

*in⋅teg⋅ri⋅ty*

  /ɪnˈtɛg







ti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [in-teg-ri-tee] Show IPA 

–noun 1.adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.




I believe you are confusing "integrity" with "integration"


*in⋅te⋅gra⋅tion*  /ˌɪn







ʃən/ [in-ti-*grey*-sh_uh







_n] 
*–noun *1.an act or instance of combining into an integral whole.2.an act or instance of integrating a racial, religious, or ethnic group.




There is a world of difference between the two.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Ted,

I will not argue with you anymore. So let's end this in due respect. We are in a free world, so you are free to think what you're saying.

Regards


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

From Wikipedia

Integrity as a concept has to do with perceived consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations and outcome. People use integrity as a holistic concept, judging the integrity of systems in terms of those systems' ability to achieve their own goals (if any). A value system's abstraction depth and range of applicable interaction may also function as significant factors in identifying integrity due to their congruence or lack of congruence with empirical observation.[citation needed] A value system may evolve over time while retaining integrity if those who espouse the values account for and resolve inconsistencies.

Some people[1] see integrity as the quality of having a sense of honesty and truthfulness in regard to the motivations for one's actions. Some people[who?] use the term "hypocrisy" in contrast to integrity[citation needed] for asserting that one part of a value system demonstrably conflicts with another, and to demand that the parties holding apparently conflicting values account for the discrepancy or change their beliefs to improve internal consistency (seen as a virtue).

The etymology of the word "integrity" can suggest insight into its use and meaning. It stems from the Latin adjective integer (whole, complete).[2] In this context, integrity may comprise the personal inner sense of "wholeness" deriving from (say) honesty and consistency of character. As such, one may judge that others "have integrity" to the extent that one judges whether they behave according to the values, beliefs and principles they claim to hold.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Redgolden said:


> Ted,
> 
> I will not argue with you anymore. So let's end this in due respect. We are in a free world, so you are free to think what you're saying.
> 
> Regards


 
It seems as though just as you are unable to follow your catch phrase - that you are unable to follow your own words.


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

dixidawg said:


> Don't wait for snow to melt! Use snowbanks as obstacles and teach them the concepts on snow. I used plowed parking lots and had them go up and over snow banks at varying angles to teach them to hold a line through an obstacle.


Great idea! I actually train in plowed parking lot all the time. I should start using the snowbanks to my advantage. Thanks


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

Has anyone read *Positive Gun Dogs by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen and Susan Smith* it says it is the the first book on positive methods for sporting dogs published in the United States. 

I purchased it as an it utilizes some drills that are fairly common.


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

moscowitz said:


> Don't know what you got until to run a hunt test or field trial. Of all the books on the market Farmer, Smartworks, Rorem, Lardy you settle for British training?? Oh yeah my favorite is Retriever on line. Colloar or no collar these are worth reading. And there are more.


You may be right about not knowing what you got. I finally had a chance to train with some great NAHRA folks last spring as usally train alone. My dog was dropping the birds left and right! It was pretty bad. I think we got that sorted out now.

Why British? - I'm new to hunting and retriever training. So when thinking about a non-ecollar approach, I thought it would be useful to start with trainers who use that approach. Now that I understand a little more about retriever training; Your right! Drills and concepts from a e-collar program would have more meaning to me. I've been thinking about Smartworks because Mr. Graham post here sometimes and might be available to answer questions. We'll see!

Please don't think I'm against e-collar training methods and FF. I have FF dogs in the past and one my dogs is ecollar conditioned. But when you put pressure on a dog it's really hard to take it back. So being new to this type of training, combined with training a breed that hasn't been used for hunting, hunt tests, trials, for 100 years; I think I'll go slowly and tread lightly. I can always use my e-collar if needed.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

kdeckels said:


> Has anyone read *Positive Gun Dogs by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen and Susan Smith* it says it is the the first book on positive methods for sporting dogs published in the United States.
> 
> I purchased it as an it utilizes some drills that are fairly common.


I read a resume of their book not long ago and ordered it (should receive it sometime in January). I look forward to read it ! Any other one you know that is in the same range ?

It seems to follow the same principles as most of clicker trainings which I read a long time ago (one was written in France and talked about clicker training for pointing dogs and another one talking about clicker training in obedience). Unfortunately, in French, there are not many books about training retrievers. In Quebec Province, a woman wrote one a long time ago and in not edited anymore (I sometime screen if I can find a used copy of that book).


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

Redgolden said:


> Yep, there are ways to get there with low force. Like anything else, there are different things for different tastes ! In the past 10 years, we'v worked our dogs with those type of methods and it works.
> 
> First, having a solid obediece for a start makes things easier when we get on more advanced field work. The dogs learn to stay "in contact" with us. During that period, we build up also the communication concept with the tone of voice (as I explained previously).
> 
> ...


I agree! Staying "in contact" and using your tone of voice is very important. I've been going back to basic obedience to help improve focus and handling at a distance. Thanks for the info. I'll have to add the Carol Cassity book to the list of books on drills.


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris,
LOL, do you ever regret tagging non-electric methods with such a "fun" nothing deep term as "Amish" so many years ago?? I can't believe I'm saying this but the novelty of the "A" word is finally wearing off even for me.
Peake
________
No2 Vapir


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Just like there are many ways to utilize an E collar DO NOT assume that all non assume that all non E Collar trainers train the same way . I do discipline a dog but not with my voice, I do Not brutalize any dog but use other means , I do not use a slingshot, a cattle prod ,nor do I use rat shot 
I have used a heeling stick, a strap , and a slip lead and yes the good old standby the leather belt


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Peake said:


> Chris,
> LOL, do you ever regret tagging non-electric methods with such a "fun" nothing deep term as "Amish" so many years ago?? I can't believe I'm saying this but the novelty of the "A" word is finally wearing off even for me.
> Peake


No, this exacting terminology mustn't be discarded. Otherwise, how do you distinguish training Amish from

Training Haimish (learning to be a good 'ol house dog)
Training Hamish (Scottish Labs only; no "canoe Labs" need apply)
Training Famish (a dog that must be taught the hard way to sing for its supper)
Training Flemish (for a Dog of Flanders learning to speak the lingua franca)
Training Squeamish (for overcoming fear of taking a bird from your dog) or
Training Beamish (teaching a dog to selectively retrieve the best Irish beer in the house)

MG


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## Jared77 (Oct 7, 2009)

Tracking cripples is actually pretty easy. Same as SchH tracking.

November issue of Gun Dog magazine (Volume 28 No 7 I think but I know its the November issue) had a write up on it.

Hope this helps and yes Im Amish as the day is long. SchH helper and Ring decoy now doing retrievers.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

Jared77 said:


> Tracking cripples is actually pretty easy. Same as SchH tracking.
> 
> November issue of Gun Dog magazine (Volume 28 No 7 I think but I know its the November issue) had a write up on it.
> 
> Hope this helps and yes Im Amish as the day is long. SchH helper and Ring decoy now doing retrievers.


Could you tell me what is "SchH helper" ? Thanks !


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Schutzhund.


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## Redgolden (Nov 21, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> Schutzhund.


Thanks very much !


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Peake said:


> Chris,
> LOL, do you ever regret tagging non-electric methods with such a "fun" nothing deep term as "Amish" so many years ago?? I can't believe I'm saying this but the novelty of the "A" word is finally wearing off even for me.
> Peake


Brother Peake,

I would like to answer your question as simply as I possibly can.


"No"

Here's what I saw when I first moved here to the flatlands of IL. Since I got here, they modified this piece of property to be used to handle grain.










There are still two species of horses used here, one is small, fast and hauls buggies for human passengers to get to destinations. The other is huge, monstrous, and gigantic and hauls wagons of supplies, timber, etc. to get to destinations.

I would choose the same term today.

Chris


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Wow, what a thread. Some on here know my history with dog training. I grew up in a family that ran hounds, had a farm and worked sheep dogs. I can tell you stories about things we did to hounds that will make you puke. When the ecollar came out we tried using them on the herding dogs, but frankly they were way to hot for what we needed in those dogs and didn't use them much. When I switched to retrievers 15 some years ago I brought the same draconian methodology and thinking that we used with hounds. By the time I trained my 10th retriever or so, after mentoring under some of the pro's around here I began to realize there had to be a better way. The program I was using included a lot of high pressure collar work, a lot of burns, mostly direct pressure and cold burns. The dogs performance was reliable but frankly I wasn't having fun. I remember sitting on my tailgate one day reflecting on the training session and feeling awful about what had just taken place. I made a committment right then and there that I had to change. There had to be a better way. That night I mentally threw away all that I knew about retriever training and began researching. This lead me to evaluate a bunch of different methods and I landed on Mike Lardy's stuff. I like what I saw, but what made the biggest impression to me was a section of tape about being a trusted mentor. He described what being a mentor truly was. I studied those tapes, mediated on those tapes for litterally hours. I then flew back east and attended a seminar. What I learned there was a whole new way of thinking when it comes to training not just retrievers but dogs in general. 

I still use the collar, and promote using it. At the same time as I've spent time relearning the art of dog training, spending time with top trainers when I can. I've come to appreciate that pressure and force are a natural part of the work we ask these fine animals to do. The question is, am I still learning how to read the dog in front of me, and provide the education he needs before I hold him accountable for his actions? If I haven't done a good job of education, then any correction no matter what tool i use is "high pressure." I see people continue to get hung up on this Amish aspect, no ecollar of any source. I can tell ya this. Telling me you don't use high pressure, high force and you're more humane for not using a collar just won't fly with me. I've seen and sadly done things to dogs I'm ashamed of, and let me tell ya, no collar was needed. I don't give a hill of beans about the tool you use, an ecollar, heeling sticks, chains, leashes, cattle prods, or rope. I care about the methods and principles of your training methods. That is what really matters the most. 

/Paul


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Wow, what a thread. Some on here know my history with dog training. I grew up in a family that ran hounds, had a farm and worked sheep dogs. I can tell you stories about things we did to hounds that will make you puke. When the ecollar came out we tried using them on the herding dogs, but frankly they were way to hot for what we needed in those dogs and didn't use them much. When I switched to retrievers 15 some years ago I brought the same draconian methodology and thinking that we used with hounds. By the time I trained my 10th retriever or so, after mentoring under some of the pro's around here I began to realize there had to be a better way. The program I was using included a lot of high pressure collar work, a lot of burns, mostly direct pressure and cold burns. The dogs performance was reliable but frankly I wasn't having fun. I remember sitting on my tailgate one day reflecting on the training session and feeling awful about what had just taken place. I made a committment right then and there that I had to change. There had to be a better way. That night I mentally threw away all that I knew about retriever training and began researching. This lead me to evaluate a bunch of different methods and I landed on Mike Lardy's stuff. I like what I saw, but what made the biggest impression to me was a section of tape about being a trusted mentor. He described what being a mentor truly was. I studied those tapes, mediated on those tapes for litterally hours. I then flew back east and attended a seminar. What I learned there was a whole new way of thinking when it comes to training not just retrievers but dogs in general.
> 
> I still use the collar, and promote using it. At the same time as I've spent time relearning the art of dog training, spending time with top trainers when I can. I've come to appreciate that pressure and force are a natural part of the work we ask these fine animals to do. The question is, am I still learning how to read the dog in front of me, and provide the education he needs before I hold him accountable for his actions? If I haven't done a good job of education, then any correction no matter what tool i use is "high pressure." I see people continue to get hung up on this Amish aspect, no ecollar of any source. I can tell ya this. Telling me you don't use high pressure, high force and you're more humane for not using a collar just won't fly with me. I've seen and sadly done things to dogs I'm ashamed of, and let me tell ya, no collar was needed. I don't give a hill of beans about the tool you use, an ecollar, heeling sticks, chains, leashes, cattle prods, or rope. I care about the methods and principles of your training methods. That is what really matters the most.
> 
> /Paul


BINGO - WE HAVE A WINNER!!!! --- At least in my book(opinion).
Paul you put into words what I was trying to get at....... and I think most on here will agree.......Thanks for your reply........


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Wow, what a thread. Some on here know my history with dog training. I grew up in a family that ran hounds, had a farm and worked sheep dogs. I can tell you stories about things we did to hounds that will make you puke. When the ecollar came out we tried using them on the herding dogs, but frankly they were way to hot for what we needed in those dogs and didn't use them much. When I switched to retrievers 15 some years ago I brought the same draconian methodology and thinking that we used with hounds. By the time I trained my 10th retriever or so, after mentoring under some of the pro's around here I began to realize there had to be a better way. The program I was using included a lot of high pressure collar work, a lot of burns, mostly direct pressure and cold burns. The dogs performance was reliable but frankly I wasn't having fun. I remember sitting on my tailgate one day reflecting on the training session and feeling awful about what had just taken place. I made a committment right then and there that I had to change. There had to be a better way. That night I mentally threw away all that I knew about retriever training and began researching. This lead me to evaluate a bunch of different methods and I landed on Mike Lardy's stuff. I like what I saw, but what made the biggest impression to me was a section of tape about being a trusted mentor. He described what being a mentor truly was. I studied those tapes, mediated on those tapes for litterally hours. I then flew back east and attended a seminar. What I learned there was a whole new way of thinking when it comes to training not just retrievers but dogs in general.
> 
> I still use the collar, and promote using it. At the same time as I've spent time relearning the art of dog training, spending time with top trainers when I can. I've come to appreciate that pressure and force are a natural part of the work we ask these fine animals to do. The question is, am I still learning how to read the dog in front of me, and provide the education he needs before I hold him accountable for his actions? If I haven't done a good job of education, then any correction no matter what tool i use is "high pressure." I see people continue to get hung up on this Amish aspect, no ecollar of any source. I can tell ya this.* Telling me you don't use high pressure, high force and you're more humane for not using a collar just won't fly with me. I've seen and sadly done things to dogs I'm ashamed of, and let me tell ya, no collar was needed. I don't give a hill of beans about the tool you use, an ecollar, heeling sticks, chains, leashes, cattle prods, or rope. I care about the methods and principles of your training methods. That is what really matters the most*.
> 
> /Paul


Paul that is exactly why I made my post, heck yeah we(my brother and I) use pressure, never said we were more humane, that is why I wanted others to know that I may be a non collar trainer but I just use different tools other than a collar..as I have stated many times before I dont judge people on what method they train with as long as they dont judge me... I just didnt want to get stereotyped into being a certain type of trainer or labled as such...thanks for your post..your last paragraph sums up a lot of my philosophy too


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Paul that is exactly why I made my post, heck yeah we(my brother and I) use pressure, never said we were more humane, that is why I wanted others to know that I may be a non collar trainer but I just use different tools other than a collar..as I have stated many times before I dont judge people on what method they train with as long as they dont judge me... I just didnt want to get stereotyped into being a certain type of trainer or labled as such...thanks for your post..your last paragraph sums up a lot of my philosophy too


Bon, your brother's dogs are now pro trained by Chris Lacrosse as I recall. Doesn't Chris use a collar?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Chris my brother's dogs were on Chris LaCross truck to run the summer circuit Chris had specific instructions to NOT put a collar on Mirk or Nola . Clint trained those dogs since birth they are now back at home in Eagle with Clint and will hopefully run another season except with Clint at the helm . We are very thankful and proud of Chris' accomplishments but Mirk and Nola run better with Clint at the handler position which was very evident when we trained last week in Idaho.


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