# Encouragement for amateurs and pos. trainers in field trials



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

A guy with his first field trial dog (a golden) who trains with positive methods and no help from a pro or ecollar or force fetch - got his 5th Qual Jam of the year this weekend at Cape Fear.

The last series, he was the only golden and I think he was the only amateur owner/handler.

Not bad. 

Yes, the dog is 5 and it's a minor stake, but it looked to be some pretty stiff competition. 

Guys name is Lindsay Ridgeway with a Topbrass bred dog.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I have to ask, what is Positive methods in your mind. I believe most people incorporate positive methods in their traiing besides using trained fetch (FF) and the collar.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

moscowitz said:


> I have to ask, what is Positive methods in your mind. I believe most people incorporate positive methods in their traiing besides using trained fetch (FF) and the collar.


Yes, I know you're right about that. Here's my definition: not using compulsion training or force training and using mainly motivation and positive reinforcement. 

Want to add that Lindsay says he following Mike Lardy's TRT training model but without the compulsion element or collar corrections. I am doing the same and with much success so far with my 9 mos old.

No criticism to anyone who does use compulsion force, just not what I do.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> A guy with his first field trial dog (a golden) who trains with positive methods and no help from a pro or ecollar or force fetch - got his 5th Qual Jam of the year this weekend at Cape Fear.
> 
> The last series, he was the only golden and I think he was the only amateur owner/handler.
> 
> ...



Are you saying that this dog is at the maximum of its potential using this training regimen ? If not, what are you saying ?

john


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

john fallon said:


> Are you saying that this dog is at the maximum of its potential using this training regimen ? If not, what are you saying ?
> 
> john


I'm saying that it's encouraging for me to see that an amateur training his first ft dog who happens to be a Golden and using non-compulsion training, can finish 5 Field Trial Qualifying stakes with a jam against a field of mainly pro trained/handled labs.

That's it, the end. A lot of us training our first field trial dog are nervous and uncertain about competing at field trials. Add on the factors of running a dog whose not a lab and not trained with the same method all the others are trained with and you have a cocktail of things to be nervous about.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Anyone training their first dog and competing with any level of success should be congratulated and encouraged, regardless of method.

Tim


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

Awesome stuff.....good to hear about alternate training methods success.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Sounds like a talented dog. I wonder what if he had taken advantage of the wonderful technology available?


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

It sounds as if you're unsure of your method?


Jennifer Henion said:


> I'm saying that it's encouraging for me to see that an amateur training his first ft dog who happens to be a Golden and using non-compulsion training, can finish 5 Field Trial Qualifying stakes with a jam against a field of mainly pro trained/handled labs.
> 
> That's it, the end. A lot of us training our first field trial dog are nervous and uncertain about competing at field trials. Add on the factors of running a dog whose not a lab and not trained with the same method all the others are trained with and you have a cocktail of things to be nervous about.


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## mmoe (May 9, 2011)

Jennifer, Check out Lorie Jolly's book. Motivational training, Rosewood Kennels.com


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

No one is sure if a method will be successful until it is actually a success. No one has ever gotten 5 Qual jams in one season with a Golden trained without compulsion and force fetch, until now. 

I'd be willing to bet that joe schmoe training his first dog with a collar and all the normal stuff is also uncertain about their method? Certainty and confidence only comes with certain success. 

Were you certain that you were going to finish the last series of any trial stake before you got there?


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

By the way Jennifer I am an amatuer, Tim Carrion is an amatuer and we run field trials. Oh yeah we run chessies and don't use that as an excuse. All my dogs have been very soft.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

moscowitz said:


> By the way Jennifer I am an amatuer, Tim Carrion is an amatuer and we run field trials. Oh yeah we run chessies and don't use that as an excuse. All my dogs have been very soft.


That's encouraging, too Moscowitz! Thanks.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> No one is sure if a method will be successful until it is actually a success. No one has ever gotten 5 Qual jams in one season with a Golden trained without compulsion and force fetch, until now.


Do you have some evidence for this other than anecdotal?


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Jennifer not to down play the accomplishments of the 5 qual. But there are some great Goldens out there running with the big boys and can hold their own. There's Elizabeth Wilson with Woody just needs a win for an FC, there's Purdy, Tri Fecta and more. I don't see these dogs as Goldens. I see them as good dogs.
By the way who is your dog out of? I like dogs sired by Push.
Finally this was a bad year for Goldens - two of my favorite Goldens passed - Marshall Richards Star and Ellis Ibbotson's Brandy. Brandy is Woody's Dam. I think of them often.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Jennifer Henion said:


> No one is sure if a method will be successful until it is actually a success. No one has ever gotten 5 Qual jams in one season with a Golden trained without compulsion and force fetch, until now.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that joe schmoe training his first dog with a collar and all the normal stuff is also uncertain about their method? Certainty and confidence only comes with certain success.
> 
> Were you certain that you were going to finish the last series of any trial stake before you got there?


There are some on this forum who were successful trainers of all breeds long before collars were available . As Tim posted that's nice - I hope it gives the individual encouragement to achieve more. 



EdA said:


> Do you have some evidence for this other than anecdotal?


U beat me 2it . It took me a long time to see the merit in successful training methods, but I did, & the dogs were much the better for that transition.


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## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Um, we aren't talking about him training without a collar. Lindsay uses NO FORCE at all. No pinch collar, choke chain, ear pinch, yelling, heeling stick, scruff shakes, etc. None. 

That's what makes the accomplishment special.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

But what could the dog be ha the trainer taken advantage of all of the technology available today? Special dogs are hard to come by. I'm not knocking anyone for how they train but rather playing devils advocate. I would hate to know I had a really special dog and I let pride get in the way of the dog maxing out its potential.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I wonder what kept the dog from placing?


Jennifer Henion said:


> No one is sure if a method will be successful until it is actually a success. No one has ever gotten 5 Qual jams in one season with a Golden trained without compulsion and force fetch, until now.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that joe schmoe training his first dog with a collar and all the normal stuff is also uncertain about their method? Certainty and confidence only comes with certain success.
> 
> Were you certain that you were going to finish the last series of any trial stake before you got there?


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

I think it great and it certainly is encouraging for the amatuer first time trainer and for those who choose to train without compulsion/collar! I enjoy reading Lindsay's blog from time to time. Congrats to him on a pretty good year by all accounts.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

moscowitz said:


> Jennifer not to down play the accomplishments of the 5 qual. But there are some great Goldens out there running with the big boys and can hold their own. There's Elizabeth Wilson with Woody just needs a win for an FC, there's Purdy, Tri Fecta and more. I don't see these dogs as Goldens. I see them as good dogs.
> By the way who is your dog out of? I like dogs sired by Push.
> Finally this was a bad year for Goldens - two of my favorite Goldens passed - Marshall Richards Star and Ellis Ibbotson's Brandy. Brandy is Woody's Dam. I think of them often.


I see Goldens that are running with the big dogs in the big Stakes as....good Golden Retrievers, acknowledging the great talent in the breed. I do see them as Golden Retrievers...and am very proud to own, train and run them. 

Congratulations on your thoughtful training, Jennifer.

Congratulations to Lindsay Ridgeway and his Golden Retriever on 5 Q JAMS!! ...against amateurs and pro's..  

Judy


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

EdA said:


> Do you have some evidence for this other than anecdotal?


No it's anecdotal. But I'm not just talking about not using the ecollar. I'm talking about clicker training the sit, heel, whistle sit, fetch, hold etc etc., then using positive reinforcement training methods for honest water entry, channel swimming, avoiding poison birds, etc. I'm not talking about using a rat gun instead of an ecollar, or using tennis shoe training to run the dog down for a correction. I'm talking about using positive reinforcement science in lieu of negative reinforcement science. Although, I do use a little neg. reinforcement or punishment in my training - I use the word "no" and some blocking. 

Moscowitz, thanks for the note about Goldens. I know there are a lot of greats! My pup is out of FC AFC CFC CAFC OTCH TNT's Stanley Steamer. Her maternal grandsire is FC AFC CFC CAFC OTCH TNT's Explosion. And so far she seems like a chip off the ole block. But we'll see. 

Here's my question prefaced with a statement: I posted this thread to show newbies and amateurs like myself that it's possible to be successful finishing Quals even with your first trial dog, even if you're competing against pros. And even if you don't use compulsion/force. Why would anyone see this as a negative? or be threatened by it?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Thank so much for your comments Judy Chute. It means a lot coming from you! And thanks to Erin and the rest for the good comments!! This is a positive thing no matter how a person decides to train. 

Claimsj - not sure it's ego getting in the way when you are training your dog to maximize his/her enjoyment of the sport and training. It is his journey to train this way and really enjoy his dog. If it was ego, he would be more concerned about a title and not care how he got it.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> No it's anecdotal. But I'm not just talking about not using the ecollar. I'm talking about clicker training the sit, heel, whistle sit, fetch, hold etc etc., then using positive reinforcement training methods for honest water entry, channel swimming, avoiding poison birds, etc. I'm not talking about using a rat gun instead of an ecollar, or using tennis shoe training to run the dog down for a correction. I'm talking about using positive reinforcement science in lieu of negative reinforcement science. Although, I do use a little neg. reinforcement or punishment in my training - I use the word "no" and some blocking.
> 
> Moscowitz, thanks for the note about Goldens. I know there are a lot of greats! My pup is out of FC AFC CFC CAFC OTCH TNT's Stanley Steamer. Her maternal grandsire is FC AFC CFC CAFC OTCH TNT's Explosion. And so far she seems like a chip off the ole block. But we'll see.
> 
> Here's my question prefaced with a statement: I posted this thread to show newbies and amateurs like myself that it's possible to be successful finishing Quals even with your first trial dog, even if you're competing against pros. And even if you don't use compulsion/force. *Why would anyone see this as a negative? or be threatened by it*?


Because it's different. This game breeds experts. We all think our way is the best, or only way... And everyone else is doing it wrong.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

claimsadj said:


> But what could the dog be ha the trainer taken advantage of all of the technology available today? Special dogs are hard to come by. I'm not knocking anyone for how they train but rather playing devils advocate. I would hate to know I had a really special dog and I let pride get in the way of the dog maxing out its potential.


Part of the technology available today includes the clicker. How have you taken advantage of clicker training? Also playing the devil's advocate.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

To each his/her own. 

I would not be encouraged by a person with a 5 year old dog, who had only obtained a JAM, regardless of methodology.


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## Jonronamo (Aug 8, 2011)

Thats very impressive!


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Looks like, counting Cape Fear...4 JAMS and 2 Reserve JAMs. All but one JAM earned this season, 2012. 

Topbrass Lad of the Lakes SH WCX **, "Laddie"..nice pedigree!


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> To each his/her own.
> 
> I would not be encouraged by a person with a 5 year old dog, who had only obtained a JAM, regardless of methodology.


ha, Ted you sure know how to rip the cap off of the bottle. 

I was encouraged to see that he had trained a dog by himself and did at least get acknowledgement at the trial, but in the same respect a JAM will not get you a point. People run field trials to title their dogs paying upwards of at least $200 a weekend when you figure in fuel, time and entry fees. If you want to just do it because you enjoy running your dog then you can do hunt tests where they go against a standard. 

I am not a field trialer but I completely understand where Ted is coming from paying $1000 this trial season and getting nothing other than a nod is not very encouraging.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Darrin, 

Some, ok, a lot of the 100% pos camp do think you are devil incarnate. They also think hunting and killing birds and owning guns is the devil's work, too. 

I don't feel that way and Lindsay has said he doesn't feel that way. I am a bird hunter and own guns and I have friends who use the ecollar and force methods whom I respect. So does Lindsay, according to what he has written. 

If I or Lindsay felt the way you portray in your post, I don't think either of us would be Lardy disciples. 

But, yes, I guess if there are a few or a lot of positive only people ranting negative things about collar users, that would cause a defensive stance.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Why would I have tried it? Dogs only live so long and it takes long enough to get consistant performance. I see no need to waste time with something like clicker training. I want to be successful with my dogs therefore I train with the must jriven of methods like most on here. My dogs have great attitudes and enjoy the training more than me. Don't fix what's not broken I guess. Again to each his own. Anyone playing the games at the q level and finishing deserves credit and respect for it.


gdgnyc said:


> Part of the technology available today includes the clicker. How have you taken advantage of clicker training? Also playing the devil's advocate.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Anybody read what Ted said or, am I the only person who hasn't ignored him? Congrats on the placement. Any guy who trains his own dog should be proud of any ribbon. Ted gets coal in his stocking.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Looks like Darrin erased the post that I was responding to.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> To each his/her own.
> 
> I would not be encouraged by a person with a 5 year old dog, who had only obtained a JAM, regardless of methodology.


You lost me Happy. This was Ted's last post.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Tim Carrion said:


> Anyone training their first dog and competing with any level of success should be congratulated and encouraged, regardless of method.
> 
> Tim


Thank you Tim. I agree.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Dman said:


> You lost me Happy. This was Ted's last post.


I think the intent was to point out an accomplishment someone made not to belittle it.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Looks like Darrin erased the post that I was responding to.


Post? What post?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I'm saying that it's encouraging for me to see that an amateur training his first ft dog who happens to be a Golden and using non-compulsion training, can finish 5 Field Trial Qualifying stakes with a jam against a field of mainly pro trained/handled labs.
> 
> That's it, the end. A lot of us training our first field trial dog are nervous and uncertain about competing at field trials. Add on the factors of running a dog whose not a lab and not trained with the same method all the others are trained with and you have a cocktail of things to be nervous about.






I just want to say right up front..... I'm just kidding.
With that said get a lab and get with the program and reduce your stress. Again just kidding. sorry couldnt resist.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I knew SOMEONE was going to tell me to get a Lab! They just don't look as good in a bandana!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Yes I agree and they should be congratulated. Having said that there have been quite a number of dogs that were trained in the past by the , don't know all the new fangled buzz words, but, positive training? I have a friend who has made I think at last count eight FC/AFC's or AFC etc. and at least one of those dogs was trained without a collar and not with "boot ,shoot and electrocute". Oh by the way it was a Labrador. Having said that with the high level of dogs running trials I think it would be very difficult to make a "big boy" dog in the all-age circa 2012 by strictly motivational training, think I have that correct. Just one man's opinion.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I knew SOMEONE was going to tell me to get a Lab! *They just don't look as good in a bandana!*


But Jennifer, all dogs look *GREAT* with a blue ribbon.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

claimsadj said:


> Why would I have tried it? Dogs only live so long and it takes long enough to get consistant performance. I see no need to waste time with something like clicker training. I want to be successful with my dogs therefore I train with the must jriven of methods like most on here. My dogs have great attitudes and enjoy the training more than me. Don't fix what's not broken I guess. Again to each his own. Anyone playing the games at the q level and finishing deserves credit and respect for it.


Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I didn't say "try it", I said "take advantage of it" thus alluding to your own comment. Just because a method is not electronic doesn't mean it is neither effective nor efficient. I had a conversation with someone who has two FC-AFC dogs. I told her that I noticed that she was taking advantage of more than just one method of training. Her comment to me was "Why not, can't you use more than one?". This person uses clicker, choker, and ecollar.

"Wasting time with something like clicker training." I also felt just as you do. I ridiculed the method. Then I saw its effectiveness. 

I also respect anyone's accomplishment playing the games. I also respect anyone who has a thorough understanding of behavior modification and applies it to dog training.

Again, I am also playing devil's advocate.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> The last series, he was the only golden and I think he was the only amateur owner/handler.


Just to clarify: First, Second and Third were owner handlers. 4th may also have been but I don't remember all of the placements. 

Nevertheless, Laddie is a fine animal.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Judy Chute said:


> Looks like, counting Cape Fear...4 JAMS and 2 Reserve JAMs. All but one JAM earned this season, 2012.
> 
> Topbrass Lad of the Lakes SH WCX **, "Laddie"..nice pedigree!


And, he earned the RJ's..and two JAMs..4 in a row. Jennifer!, Reserve JAMS are recognition for exellent work  

Certainly that shows that he and "Laddie" were becoming a team. Very nice ..that is a big deal no matter HT, FT..or level of competition. Congratulations on that...a great achievement..so hope to see more from this Team in 2013!!!

He has a FT bred Golden Retriever if anyone cares to look:

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=257111 (love that hip clearance..congrats on that, too)


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

Great accomplishment. To play consistently at the Q level with those methods tells me its a good dog and a very good trainer. I would expect that trainer to be very proud and satisfied and thats what its all about!

Bill


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Anybody read what Ted said or, am I the only person who hasn't ignored him? Congrats on the placement. Any guy who trains his own dog should be proud of any ribbon. Ted gets coal in his stocking.


I'm not concerned with what encourages him. Anyone with money can buy a dozen dogs, get pro's to train them, wash 90% of them out and boast about those that succeed. More importantly I've gained more satisfaction watching a problem dog make progress, sometimes never getting anywhere from a title perspective. If blue ribbons are your only measure of encouragement, satisfaction or success metric, you're gonna be one huge grouch...

/Paul


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm not concerned with what encourages him. Anyone with money can buy a dozen dogs, get pro's to train them, wash 90% of them out and boast about those that succeed. More importantly I've gained more satisfaction watching a problem dog make progress, sometimes never getting anywhere from a title perspective. If blue ribbons are your only measure of encouragement, satisfaction or success metric, you're gonna be one huge grouch...
> 
> /Paul


Are you suggesting that one could be an excellent trainer yet not have a titled dog? I thought that the measure of a good trainer was the titled dog.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Bill Billups said:


> Great accomplishment. To play consistently at the Q level with those methods tells me its a good dog and a very good trainer. I would expect that trainer to be very proud and satisfied and thats what its all about!
> 
> Bill


I agree. If my only training decision becomes whether I should write the check with the black ink or the blue ink this month, its time for me to rethink my hobby.

WRL


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

gdgnyc said:


> Are you suggesting that one could be an excellent trainer yet not have a titled dog? I thought that the measure of a good trainer was the titled dog.


no the measure of a great DOG are the titles.......if titles were the measure of a good trainer then there a lot of trainers on here that arent "good" which we both no to be a poor assumption....

there are quite a few accomplished trainers out there that do not have a titled FT dog...but they are good enough to judge and they have the respect of their fellow dog persons


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> Are you suggesting that one could be an excellent trainer yet not have a titled dog? I thought that the measure of a good trainer was the titled dog.


You can always buy a titled dog

/Paul


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

gdgnyc said:


> Are you suggesting that one could be an excellent trainer yet not have a titled dog? I thought that the measure of a good trainer was the titled dog.


I do believe that is possible. Some pros do not compete. Some talented amateurs do not have the grounds or money to go all the way. I think the measure of a "good trainer" is one that improves the dog he has to start with. If it is a talented dog and all the elements are in place, then of course he should title. If the dog has less natural talent or comes packing a load of issues, success can be defined by acceptable performance of the job he is asked to do. 

If titles or ribbons are the only rewards for playing this damn game, I am truly wasting my time! I do it for the joy of working with my own dogs. When one of them gets something right that we have been working on, reward enough! I have one that has been to the line five times in the Q. The old boy is 7. We have not made it to the fourth series in an AKC trial yet. I had a blast each and every time, kicked myself in the butt for all my greenhorn mistakes, went home happy and continued to work on it. So yes, I am extremely happy for the guy and dog this thread started for. Go get 'em and have fun. That someone is doing that is all the encouragement I need.

Not all of us prove our "quest for excellence" by throwing hundreds of thousands of $$ or dogs at a national title.


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

The proudest I've ever been of a ribbon was that first Q JAM with my first FT dog. Rorem has a nice talk about setting goals sequentially and reaching them.

Finish a trial.....then try for placements......then for titles......then qualify for a national.......then NFC......etc.

Most will be stuck at the first two but you can still love the process and acchieve satisfaction.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Judy Chute said:


> And, he earned the RJ's..and two JAMs..4 in a row. Jennifer!, Reserve JAMS are recognition for exellent work
> 
> Certainly that shows that he and "Laddie" were becoming a team. Very nice ..that is a big deal no matter HT, FT..or level of competition. Congratulations on that...a great achievement..so hope to see more from this Team in 2013!!!
> 
> ...


Thanks for going to the work of looking that up and posting, Judy! Great to see it and nice to hear your perspective on it being an accomplishment. I think so too.

Just a note to folks like Ted thinking this is not an accomplishment: This guy, Lindsay has a full-time job, a family with children and doesn't employ a pro trainer. He bought the pup at 8 weeks and he is a member of the family. Lindsay trains when he can and usually alone. It is his first trial dog and is going to the extra effort and intellectual experiment of using a different, yet positive training method. I think the guy has achieved a lot in 5 years. 

So glad to hear everyone's perspective on this and hope it gives you the glimmer of hope it gives me.

Jen


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

Jennifer - I'm sorry that some folks feel the need to take someone else's view of their own PERSONAL success and belittle it. It's not like you were trying to say hey - look at this -this is why my way is right and yours is wrong. In fact, in most of your posts it seems like you are always quick to say you don't necessarily think we (I use "we" here becuase I use a collar and FF) are wrong. You've chose a different path becuase you enjoy that path. It's not the path for me, but hey, that's ok. I'm glad you are happy with it. I'm glad you and some of your friends are enjoying some success that is fulfilling to you. Isn't that all that really matters in the end? A girl spending time with her dog, enjoying it and the dog being happy and loved? Maybe not to everyone - maybe the color of the ribbons matters more than the path to some folks. Again, not my way of thinking, but hey, doesn't mean it's wrong. No matter which method you use - yours, or mine - finding your own personal fulfillment is really all that matters. Congrats to you.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I AGREE 1000%, people should not gauge somebody else's success by their own........... 


hughest said:


> Jennifer - I'm sorry that some folks feel the need to take someone else's view of their own PERSONAL success and belittle it. It's not like you were trying to say hey - look at this -this is why my way is right and yours is wrong. In fact, in most of your posts it seems like you are always quick to say you don't necessarily think we (I use "we" here becuase I use a collar and FF) are wrong. You've chose a different path becuase you enjoy that path. It's not the path for me, but hey, that's ok. I'm glad you are happy with it. I'm glad you and some of your friends are enjoying some success that is fulfilling to you. Isn't that all that really matters in the end? A girl spending time with her dog, enjoying it and the dog being happy and loved? Maybe not to everyone - maybe the color of the ribbons matters more than the path to some folks. Again, not my way of thinking, but hey, doesn't mean it's wrong. No matter which method you use - yours, or mine - finding your own personal fulfillment is really all that matters. Congrats to you.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

IF I wanted encouragement as an Amateur Handler trainer I would look to someone like Robbie Bickley, who has titled two of his dogs, while working full time and raising a family. But, hey that's me. To each his/her own.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks Tracy! Really appreciate your post. I'll pass it along to Lindsay!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> IF I wanted encouragement as an Amateur Handler trainer I would look to someone like Robbie Bickley, who has titled two of his dogs, while working full time and raising a family. But, hey that's me. To each his/her own.


Since this thread is pretty much about Jennifers' quest to learn about positive training methods and finding a few folks who've had success with the theory maybe Robbie can help her out? I'm sure she'd love to talk to him about his use of positive methods and how he acheived his success with positive training methods. Having FC/AFC on a dog with positive methods is amazing in my opinion. Maybe someone can PM Jennifer with his contact information so they could talk about his positive training methods?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Judy Chute said:


> And, he earned the RJ's..and two JAMs..4 in a row. Jennifer!, Reserve JAMS are recognition for exellent work
> 
> Certainly that shows that he and "Laddie" were becoming a team. Very nice ..that is a big deal no matter HT, FT..or level of competition. Congratulations on that...a great achievement..so hope to see more from this Team in 2013!!!
> 
> ...


That's a great pedigree, I personally know two littermates, Roger and Kaye Fuller's "Flash" and Dave Cheatum's "Fire", wonderful dogs. I can't remember exactly but I think Flash won (or got second) in a 100 dog Open down in Texas last year, and Flash has other all age placements, while Dave won the Qual and got second in the Amateur at the Golden Specialty last September. So without wanting to deflate Laddie's accomplishment in any way, it begs the question where would he be if he had been trained conventionally? 

Now I am one of those guys who imposes artificial contraints on myself to make things more fun. For example I like to bow hunt with a long bow, when a coumpound bow shoots faster, farther and can be more accurate, I like to duck hunt with an old (1907 Lefever) side by side shotgun in a time where the average duck hunter has a big magnum automatic, so I understand the concept of going against the grain, I'm just wondering what your motavation for going this route is? Do you feel conventional training is cruel? Do you believe the positive training program can equal or better the conventional metheod, if just given a chance? Or are you just trying to be a bit contrary as I am whether it is bow hunting or campaining a minority breed in field trials?

I hope you don't take my post as being critical, you know I love you and your dog, I'm just curious why you choose to go this route. Good luck and I really hope Laddie wins his next Qual.

John


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Tim Carrion said:


> Anyone training their first dog and competing with any level of success should be congratulated and encouraged, regardless of method.
> 
> Tim


Absolutely.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I knew SOMEONE was going to tell me to get a Lab! They just don't look as good in a bandana!


Yea yea labs just swim too fast. Screws up the timing on the clicker.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> That's a great pedigree, I personally know two littermates, Roger and Kaye Fuller's "Flash" and Dave Cheatum's "Fire", wonderful dogs. I can't remember exactly but I think Flash won (or got second) in a 100 dog Open down in Texas last year, and Flash has other all age placements, while Dave won the Qual and got second in the Amateur at the Golden Specialty last September. So without wanting to deflate Laddie's accomplishment in any way, it begs the question where would he be if he had been trained conventionally?
> 
> Now I am one of those guys who imposes artificial contraints on myself to make things more fun. For example I like to bow hunt with a long bow, when a coumpound bow shoots faster, farther and can be more accurate, I like to duck hunt with an old (1907 Lefever) side by side shotgun in a time where the average duck hunter has a big magnum automatic, so I understand the concept of going against the grain, I'm just wondering what your motavation for going this route is? Do you feel conventional training is cruel? Do you believe the positive training program can equal or better the conventional metheod, if just given a chance? Or are you just trying to be a bit contrary as I am whether it is bow hunting or campaining a minority breed in field trials?
> 
> ...


Love you , too, John

As far as "where would he be if he used conventional methods?" 
I'll answer it with a question:

Where would Carol's dog be if she would only hire the right pro and put her dog on a pro's truck?

Where would /Paul's other dogs be, if /Paul had simply stopped wasting training time on that troubled dog who made improvement, but still not test worthy? 

Both would have more ribbons, but that's not what they're in it for, according to their posts above. It's the same thing. Let's face it, if you're going to embark on a "different" training method that uses little to no punishment, you better dang well have a smart, well bred dog with a top notch pedigree who was developed to succeed in this sport. That's what Lindsay got, and I don't think it's a waste. especially if he paves a road that will be enjoyable for others to follow. 

As for the contrarian theory. I guess my husband would say I am a little bit that way. But here's why I am trying this method: it's amazing. I have been training dogs for people (basic obedience) for years using the choke chain, prong collar, leash jerks, intimidation etc. It works. It's also tiring, not fun for me and the owners could not sustain the standard for long. 

Then I was exposed to clicker training and was dubious. But quickly, I was amazed. Started watching the right people doing it the right way and was more amazed. Started practicing and made mistakes, learned and practiced and watched some more. Started using it to teach my client dogs. Skills like instant sit or sit and stay while I walk away were taught in one day - and stuck! Could build on to the next steps on day 2 and by the end of the week i have a dog who sits instantly, stays while I twirl a bird, while opening the front door and walk 30 feet out. Once the dog learns the behavior you can stop clicking and treating. Done. Heeling is the same way, no jerking, choking etc. And guess what - it's a lot more fun to train that way than the choking way. The dog looks at you afterward and says THAT WAS FUN! Thank you for teaching me that, what else can we learn?

Then I started delving deeper into applications for training the skills up through basics and transition. Found some great sources from R+ trainers who use platforms and other tools to teach position and at-distance behaviors. Taught my pup a perfect square sit whistle sit with a correctly sized rectangle platform. Take the platform away and she still has the behavior because she LEARNED it! It's amazing to me. Can't wait to see what else I can learn. It's a joy for the person and for the dog. 

The first client dog I clicker trained to sit stay while I open the door and walk through, comes to my daycare and automatically offers this behavior every time we're at a door or kennel. He will not come through until i release him to, despite enticing distractions. 

I know, simple stuff so far, it will get harder, but that's what's fun in life - the challenge and the road traveled.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jennifer Good for you for trying and sticking to your training methods. And also for the fellow who got a jam with his Golden. After all if the owner and the dog are having fun does anything else really matter. Because that it what is important to me to have fun and enjoy the sport and my dogs! Yes I want to do well and work hard every day at it. I also try various methods to have success with my dogs because I want him to enjoy what they are doing! There are many avenues to achieve the same goals. We all see the route a little different and we all are not as experienced as some on this forum but we all have one thing in mind our dogs. Great thread Jennifer.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Glad you're here, Mary Lynn, and enjoying your route!

Jen


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Anytime there is a deviation in training methods the hair goes up. I wonder how the pro trainers reacted when E-collars were first introduced. You got me thinking and I applaud you for that. Thanks for the post Jennifer.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

yellow machine said:


> Anytime there is a deviation in training methods the hair goes up. I wonder how the pro trainers reacted when E-collars were first introduced. You got me thinking and I applaud you for that. Thanks for the post Jennifer.


They became experts on fixing all the problems they created


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

There you go!!!! Well said, Happy ...

Mary Lyn.."Laddie" earned TWO Reserve JAMs among the 4 in a row.  You have to take notice of that  

Five years old..well, among other things, Laddie may have had some growing up to do. I was told by a long time HT guy and totally sold on the "Snapper" pedigree (kept going back to it for a new pup over the years...and after going away for one pup ..who he still had, very old..went right back to Snapper for his next)...."give him time to grow up and use a great deal of patience" re my Sebec. He had approached me at a group training offered by a club to ask if my pup was a Snapper pup. He had his newest with him that day along with his older guy that he did work. He is an avid hunter as well. 

Many FT people do not want to wait for the growing up...if it is needed. Titles and points/championships etc are desired at a very young age....or the dog is a washout. Kudos to those that recognize and have the patience when needed. There is a wicked guilt trip put on those that really want to train there own retriever. If you do not send to a pro..you should not achieve success. Gets a little tiring. 

I like most of the pro's that we see at tests or trials. Never have had an issue with any and most are quick with the "good luck", "how did you do?"..etc It is more likely to be faced with some amateurs that are rude, condescending that you dare step into "their" world..so....

Loved the Rorem Workshop about 5 years ago now in MI...his truck was one of the best managed that I have ever seen. A Snapper son was on it at the time and I did get to run him..what a fabulous dog and will never forget it along with my still favorite little from the "dark side" bitch.."Abby". 

Then, too, an owner/handler training their first FT prospect may take some time to use the standard training aids used by "most" field people. Watching field training DVD's at first is kind of a jolt...not to mention some group training sessions. It might not be until their next retriever..as well, 

Have seen long time FT handlers ruin good dogs with their harsh training..and that is due to temper, lack of patience..and not the Lardy or Stawski or Farmer/Aycock training programs. 

A welcome "to the world of field trials" would be nice to hear across the board..especially here on RTF. 

Off to train...again...

Congratulations! and Best in 2013 in whatever venues "Laddie" is taken to  

Judy


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great post, Judy! I will send it to Lindsay. Don't know him personally, just through another forum and facebook. Ironically, it was a fellow RTFer who sent me Lindsay's contact information last year. Thanks to that person, whom I can't remember, unfortunately!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Love you , too, John
> 
> As far as "where would he be if he used conventional methods?"
> I'll answer it with a question:
> ...


Good answer Jennifer,

Some of us tend to project our viewpoint on others, I know I am suseptable to doing that, and that is what I did here. I bolded the part of your post that really interest me. I am a product of all the trainers both pro and amateur that I have trained with for the past twenty years. It is quite a large number, but the general methods don't vary much from individual to individual. That said I occasionally run into Janice Gunn at a trial here or there and have a nice visit with her. I would love to learn how to obedience train with her. I would also like to see this clicker technique you brought up. I've got a five month old, very smart Golden that I'm doing obedience with right now. He's an smart, easy, tractible pup, so everything is going along smoothly, buteasier and smoother would be better.

Anyway, I apologize if I poured a little cold water on Laddie's impressive accomplishment, I have had very talented dogs go through long dry patches running all stakes, so four in a row is very impressive.

John


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

No apology needed John. I'm glad you asked the questions and I knew you asked them in a caring spirit! It has been a great discussion with everyone. Thanks!

Kum ba yah regards,
Jen


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> No one is sure if a method will be successful until it is actually a success. *No one has ever gotten 5 Qual jams in one season with a Golden trained without compulsion and force fetch, until now. *
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that joe schmoe training his first dog with a collar and all the normal stuff is also uncertain about their method? Certainty and confidence only comes with certain success.
> 
> Were you certain that you were going to finish the last series of any trial stake before you got there?


With all due respect to your friend and his dog, their accomplishments and their goals, the part I bolded is a pretty strange statistic. A really talented/lucky team may be capable of winning 5 Qual JAMS in one season but never do so because they are so lucky/talented that they advance to the all-age stakes. Once a dog wins a couple Quals, I believe, it is no longer eligible to compete in them, and therefore no longer able to rack up a bunch of JAMs in a single season.

Like I said...all due respect, but the way you phrased it just really bugs me and after three days I can no longer keep my fingers from typing...maybe you mean "has never advanced so far"?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Honestly, I have no idea what you're asking or correcting. Nor am I fully familiar with the rules governing advancement. So please educate me. The bolded sentence was just me saying, "This guy got 5 Jams at 5 Quals in one year. Pretty sure no one has achieved that using only R+ training and no force training."

I read your post a couple times and still don't understand how it relates to what I said. The guy didn't WIN 2 or even 1 Qual. He JAMed 4 Quals and RJAMed 1 this year.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Honestly, I have no idea what you're asking or correcting. Nor am I fully familiar with the rules governing advancement. So please educate me. The bolded sentence was just me saying, "This guy got 5 Jams at 5 Quals in one year. Pretty sure no one has achieved that using only R+ training and no force training."
> 
> I read your post a couple times and still don't understand how it relates to what I said. The guy didn't WIN 2 or even 1 Qual. He JAMed 4 Quals and RJAMed 1 this year.


According to the rules, a dog cannot continue to run Quals once it has won 2 of them (at least that is what I remember reading). 

I can't think of a good analogy. But, imagine Dog A and Dog B are trained using the same non compulsion etc. methods you admire and describe. Now imagine Dog A wins its first two Quals. It will then never run a Qual again. Dog B never wins a Qual and therefore runs many a Qual, eventually winning 5 JAMs in one season. Whose accomplishments are more remarkable: Dog A who only finished 2 Quals, or Dog B, who has finished 5+?


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Honestly, I have no idea what you're asking or correcting. Nor am I fully familiar with the rules governing advancement. So please educate me. The bolded sentence was just me saying, "This guy got 5 Jams at 5 Quals in one year. Pretty sure no one has achieved that using only R+ training and no force training."
> 
> I read your post a couple times and still don't understand how it relates to what I said. The guy didn't WIN 2 or even 1 Qual. He JAMed 4 Quals and RJAMed 1 this year.


I'm with you, I don't understand what the correction is all about. I don't see where you stated the dog won or even placed. You stated it received JAMs and and RJAM.

I used to belong to a couple mailing lists that Lindsay was/is on back when he got Laddy. I use compulsion and have no reservations about it but I can respect Lindsay for trying. I think he has accomplished more than some have using the "more traditional" methods. More power to him!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

mitty said:


> According to the rules, a dog cannot continue to run Quals once it has won 2 of them (at least that is what I remember reading).
> 
> I can't think of a good analogy. But, imagine Dog A and Dog B are trained using the same non compulsion etc. methods you admire and describe. Now imagine Dog A wins its first two Quals. It will then never run a Qual again. Dog B never wins a Qual and therefore runs many a Qual, eventually winning 5 JAMs in one season. Whose accomplishments are more remarkable: Dog A who only finished 2 Quals, or Dog B, who has finished 5+?


Obviously, Dog A is more impressive. ??? What I'm saying is no R+ dog has even gotten *one *Jam or even gotten last place in the final series. Certainly no R+ dog has WON a Qual. So we would be comparing the 5 Jam dog to who?

The point is that this is the highest achievement to date, that I or most R+ trainers know of, for an R+ trained dog. If I'm wrong, I hope someone tells me, cause then I'd be even more encouraged.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Obviously, Dog A is more impressive. ??? What I'm saying is no R+ dog has even gotten *one *Jam or even gotten last place in the final series. Certainly no R+ dog has WON a Qual. So we would be comparing the 5 Jam dog to who?
> 
> *The point is that this is the highest achievement to date*, that I or most R+ trainers know of, for an R+ trained dog. If I'm wrong, I hope someone tells me, cause then I'd be even more encouraged.


Yes, this. Since Dog A does not exist, your friend's dog is even more awesome. But from what you wrote before, it was not clear that dog A does not exist.

(Bad fingers!)


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Obviously, Dog A is more impressive. ??? What I'm saying is no R+ dog has even gotten *one *Jam or even gotten last place in the final series. Certainly no R+ dog has WON a Qual. So we would be comparing the 5 Jam dog to who?
> 
> The point is that this is the highest achievement to date, that I or most R+ trainers know of, for an R+ trained dog. If I'm wrong, I hope someone tells me, cause then I'd be even more encouraged.


Question, If this is the best that has ever been done with R+ training shouldn't that tell you something (unless thats enough success for you, which is fine, I understand) (surely this guy isnt the first to ever attempt this). I am talking FT not gundogs which could be done I am sure.

OR, or do you think the R+ training will advance enough to catch up to results of commonly accepted training methods? And some dogs a Jam is all that can be expected in Qs no matter what training method is used


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

rboudet said:


> Question, If this is the best that has ever been done with R+ training shouldn't that tell you something (unless thats enough success for you, which is fine, I understand) (surely this guy isnt the first to ever attempt this). I am talking FT not gundogs which could be done I am sure.
> 
> OR, or do you think the R+ training will advance enough to catch up to results of commonly accepted training methods? And some dogs a Jam is all that can be expected in Qs no matter what training method is used


I'm wondering if it is sort of like woodworkers liking to do stuff with traditional tools instead of power tools, and hunting with muzzle loaders and bows and arrows. The other methods take longer but it is fun, and a different challenge.


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## dpate (Mar 16, 2011)

mitty said:


> I'm wondering if it is sort of like woodworkers liking to do stuff with traditional tools instead of power tools, and hunting with muzzle loaders and bows and arrows. The older methods take longer but it is fun, and a different challenge.


Butting in late here but I wouldn't consider R+ training to be traditional or old. Yes we've always used positive reinforcement but clicker or marker training and understanding how dogs learn and respond has made tremendous advancements in the past 10 years or so (from my understanding). I follow Lardy but I do think there is great potential to train dogs the way Lindsay is doing (a program just hasn't been developed yet). Read a little about any of the protection sports training where they have embraced it with amazing results. From my understanding, the schutzhund people didn't think R+ training could ever produce like traditional methods either. Now they still use R- and P+ but not to a large extent.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

rboudet said:


> Question, If this is the best that has ever been done with R+ training shouldn't that tell you something (unless thats enough success for you, which is fine, I understand) (surely this guy isnt the first to ever attempt this). I am talking FT not gundogs which could be done I am sure.
> 
> OR, or do you think the R+ training will advance enough to catch up to results of commonly accepted training methods? And some dogs a Jam is all that can be expected in Qs no matter what training method is used


The second one. I think this is the first time people have tried to apply a mainly R+ method to advanced field training. Therefore, there are some things to work out. Part of figuring it out is to actually take a dog through the process to see what the real life scenarios require. Then to test the skills at an actual trial. You could say that Laddie is an experiment dog. Lindsay has been carefully documenting his training, his tools and his failure/successes along the way. I'll bet when he gets a new pup, it will go much much faster and that he will reach a higher level of success. 

As for the woodworker analogy, John Robinson asked that earlier and I gave my best answer in post #62. This stuff works, it works fast and it stays in the dog's brain. On top of that, it's really fun.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

dpate said:


> Butting in late here but I wouldn't consider R+ training to be traditional or old. Yes we've always used positive reinforcement but clicker or marker training and understanding how dogs learn and respond has made tremendous advancements in the past 10 years or so (from my understanding). I follow Lardy but I do think there is great potential to train dogs the way Lindsay is doing (a program just hasn't been developed yet). Read a little about any of the protection sports training where they have embraced it with amazing results. From my understanding, the schutzhund people didn't think R+ training could ever produce like traditional methods either. Now they still use R- and P+ but not to a large extent.


I didn't mean to imply that the R+ methods were older, maybe "other" is a better word. I'm gonna go change it now...


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Quote "No one has ever gotten 5 Qual jams in one season with a Golden trained without compulsion and force fetch, until now." 


Where /who has kept these records so show this? NO where have I seen records of dogs training methods when on EE or any other statistical sites.. *Ever* is a long time and there are a lot of dogs that have received RJ's or Jam's since the existence of FT's. I would think that since this training is not as well known that the folks who have done this may not be well known either.

I am not trying to down grade the accomplishment only saying that to some it may not be that great of an accomplishment compared to the time spent, as each take their own path to get to the same destination.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> The second one. I think this is the first time people have tried to apply a mainly R+ method to advanced field training. Therefore, there are some things to work out. Part of figuring it out is to actually take a dog through the process to see what the real life scenarios require. Then to test the skills at an actual trial. You could say that Laddie is an experiment dog. Lindsay has been carefully documenting his training, his tools and his failure/successes along the way. I'll bet when he gets a new pup, it will go much much faster and that he will reach a higher level of success.
> 
> As for the woodworker analogy, John Robinson asked that earlier and I gave my best answer in post #62. This stuff works, it works fast and it stays in the dog's brain. On top of that, it's really fun.


If it works, and is fast and stays in the brain, why did it take so long to start earning Jams? Is it the complexity of the the FT test and concepts? Or is the training not to that level yet? I agree, you can proberly make a good gun dog using these methods. (dont know anything about the dog but could Jamming Q be the highest level of his ability) To be able to compete at the AA level and most Q's (not all Q's are created equal) it takes a really good dog and really good training methods. Pleae dont take this as questioning your/his methods, just bored at work.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

rboudet said:


> If it works, and is fast and stays in the brain, why did it take so long to start earning Jams? Is it the complexity of the the FT test and concepts? Or is the training not to that level yet? I agree, you can proberly make a good gun dog using these methods. (dont know anything about the dog but could Jamming Q be the highest level of his ability) To be able to compete at the AA level and most Q's (not all Q's are created equal) it takes a really good dog and really good training methods. Pleae dont take this as questioning your/his methods, just bored at work.


exactly, a qual is not really a measure of a well trained trial dog. i got a second with a dog when he was 14 months old, he didnt place in an allage trial until way later.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

kip said:


> exactly, a qual is not really a measure of a well trained trial dog. i got a second with a dog when he was 14 months old, he didnt place in an allage trial until way later.


 That was my first take to, but the point here isn't comparing this Positively trained dog to conventionally trained dogs at this point, the points are:

1) Applying these training techniques to field dogs is relatively new.
2) Doing this is kind of an experiment, nobody knows if it will work or how well it will work, much less if it will ever work as well as conventional training.
3) To the OP's knowledge, this is a high water mark for a purely positively trained field dog, so something to cheer about, even if it is modest bu some of our standards.

Like many of you I am in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp, and have been happy doing what 95% have done, but if it weren't for people trying new things through history, we would still be wearing animal skins and using our dogs to drag our stuff from camp to camp. So I say good for Laddie and Jennifer, success might be slow to start, but hopefully she can prove her point and revolutionize retriever training.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

i think alot of these ideas where used way before e collars. i just get the fellin, and it could be just me, that some of this is due to the fact that people havent seen the right way to train with the so called conventional methods. i promise my dogs are happy.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

by the way not tring to start anything, its raining outside and i am bored to death.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Nothing wrong with having different tools in your belt? I know trainers were probably hesitant to use the e-collar when they came out. When they came out they experienced problems and created problems. They had to learn how to apply the technique properly before it became an effective tool. Through this process, many trainers became "greats" and got their names in the Hall of Fame. They have tools in their belts that nobody who employ's 100% modern methods will ever learn from video's and seminars. Do all their tools work, are all the tools still viable today? Nope. Not saying that just like this thread isn't about convincing someone to use a specific method. I see it as being more about learning. Maybe even learning something new?


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Nothing wrong with having different tools in your belt? I know trainers were probably hesitant to use the e-collar when they came out. When they came out they experienced problems and created problems. They had to learn how to apply the technique properly before it became an effective tool. Through this process, many trainers became "greats" and got their names in the Hall of Fame. They have tools in their belts that nobody who employ's 100% modern methods will ever learn from video's and seminars. Do all their tools work, are all the tools still viable today? Nope. Not saying that just like this thread isn't about convincing someone to use a specific method. I see it as being more about learning. Maybe even learning something new?


well said.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> Good answer Jennifer,
> 
> Some of us tend to project our viewpoint on others, I know I am suseptable to doing that, and that is what I did here. I bolded the part of your post that really interest me. I am a product of all the trainers both pro and amateur that I have trained with for the past twenty years. It is quite a large number, but the general methods don't vary much from individual to individual. That said I occasionally run into Janice Gunn at a trial here or there and have a nice visit with her. I would love to learn how to obedience train with her. I would also like to see this clicker technique you brought up. I've got a five month old, very smart Golden that I'm doing obedience with right now. He's an smart, easy, tractible pup, so everything is going along smoothly, buteasier and smoother would be better.
> 
> ...


John, I do competition obedience with my dog. I use the clicker. You would be surprised at the speed something can be taught by marking the behavior. It is precise and if done properly the dog learns that it can succeed. And in many cases it can speed up the learning process. As stated earlier I ridiculed it at first. Not now. I might add that I have trained other ways. I have added the clicker to my toolbox.

I just have to add that I have used it for what I call "field obedience". I cleared up many issues. The only one that remains to be cleared up is the misunderstanding my training partners have about my methods. I will be clicking their behavior, too.;-)


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I once judged a 10 year old dog that was running a Q. The dog handler did not start until the dog was later in life before getting involved with FT game. The dog was trained by the owner and only run by the owner. The guy was a very nice person. Of course they were running against all the new crop of up and coming prospects. The dog made it though all 4 series and jammed. The guy was happy as a clam and thanked me and let me know it was the dogs last trial. Funny after sitting in a chair watching 1000's of dogs butts I remember a Q jam. 

I guess what I am trying to say is good for them. I hope they are having fun and keep going.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Steve Amrein said:


> I once judged a 10 year old dog that was running a Q. The dog handler did not start until the dog was later in life before getting involved with FT game. The dog was trained by the owner and only run by the owner. The guy was a very nice person. Of course they were running against all the new crop of up and coming prospects. The dog made it though all 4 series and jammed. The guy was happy as a clam and thanked me and let me know it was the dogs last trial. *Funny after sitting in a chair watching 1000's of dogs butts I remember a Q jam.*
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say is good for them. I hope they are having fun and keep going.


Nothing to add other than say that is a great story and wonderful sentiment...


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

gdgnyc said:


> John, I do competition obedience with my dog. I use the clicker. You would be surprised at the speed something can be taught by marking the behavior. It is precise and if done properly the dog learns that it can succeed. And in many cases it can speed up the learning process. As stated earlier I ridiculed it at first. Not now. I might add that I have trained other ways. I have added the clicker to my toolbox.
> 
> I just have to add that I have used it for what I call "field obedience". I cleared up many issues. The only one that remains to be cleared up is the misunderstanding my training partners have about my methods. I will be clicking their behavior, too.;-)


I don't know anything about this, so forgive me if my question is crazy, but could the clicker technique be transfered to the "tone" button on an e-collar?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> I don't know anything about this, so forgive me if my question is crazy, but could the clicker technique be transfered to the "tone" button on an e-collar?


Haven't tried it yet, but it is my plan for the near future. One would have to program the dog to recognize the tone the same way as a click. 

When we first teach dogs what the clicker means, we call it "charging" the clicker. Simply means having the dog in a room with clicker and treats ready. click, give treat or throw treat to get dogs attention. click, treat, click, treat. Pretty soon - sometimes it takes as much as 4 minutes - dog is staring at you and your hand waiting for the click. 

At that moment, dog knows click means treat. Now you set a platform on the ground. Dog walks to it, you click and treat. dog figures out if he repeats this behavior that got a click before, he'll get another click/treat. Soon you will have shaped the dog's behavior to get on the platform and sit squarely using your clicks and treats. Later you can ditch the treats and use a bumper/retrieve as the "treat". 

I'm simplifying it here, but you get the gist. Now you can imagine that you can do the same thing with the tone on the collar. My plan is to use this for distance work, holding the line and to shape proper water entry (no cheating), etc. The treat will be the bumper or bird. But it's a work in progress. Not sure how Lindsay did that stuff. Plan to read his blog to get an idea how he did it and then I'll determine what mods to make for my own training. I think his male dog is a bit more headstrong than my female, from what I have read.

And Thanks to Steve for that story!! Nice addition!

Jen


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I know the pager or buzz works well on my Dogtra collar!! when doing long blinds and you want a fast sit??


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> I don't know anything about this, so forgive me if my question is crazy, but could the clicker technique be transfered to the "tone" button on an e-collar?[/QUOTE
> 
> I don't know how your dog perceives the tone. If it is not uncomfortable or annoying, I don't see why not. It would be nothing more than a secondary reinforcer once it is conditioned. I have had that same thought myself but I would really like to talk to someone who has done it.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Mike Tierny uses the tone button some in this context and it seems to be really successful.

He uses the other buttons as well regards

Bubba


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Well congratulations. That is a big deal for a golden trained with a clicker. Must be a special dog. 
I do wonder if some of those JAMS might have been wins or placements with this special dog and conventional force training.....


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Purchased an e-collar that also had "clicker" tone on it. This purchase for my first Golden Retriever, "Andi". When I pressed the clicker button, he would run back to me for his treat. Used only for the field. One day, sent him in the river for a quick reward swim while doing drills..forgot to take it off.  Very expensive and this was about 12 years ago. Have it somewhere as it stopped working after the swim. Innotec, (sp?) maybe?

Will have to dig it out..


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> Well congratulations. That is a big deal for a golden trained with a clicker. Must be a special dog.
> I do wonder if some of those JAMS might have been wins or placements with this special dog and conventional force training.....


We went through that about five pages back. I had the same comment, only I wasn't as tactful as you...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

gdgnyc said:


> John, I do competition obedience with my dog. I use the clicker. You would be surprised at the speed something can be taught by marking the behavior. It is precise and if done properly the dog learns that it can succeed. And in many cases it can speed up the learning process. As stated earlier I ridiculed it at first. Not now. I might add that I have trained other ways. I have added the clicker to my toolbox.
> 
> I just have to add that I have used it for what I call "field obedience". I cleared up many issues. The only one that remains to be cleared up is the misunderstanding my training partners have about my methods. I will be clicking their behavior, too.;-)


You may need the e-collar for your training partners George.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Tact is my middle name!

Far too much drivel on RTF these days for me to read 5 pages.

BTW- change your post per page settings and it is only 3 pages long.


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## Wingman509 (Jan 30, 2013)

I am about to jump into field trials this year with my pup or maybe train this year with my puppy while waitng to compete next year. However this is very encouraging for a novice like myself to here of a first time trainers success!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Good luck, Wingman!

It's my first time, too and so excited to be attending my first one next week - just to watch and meet people, then to compete in the Derby in April. 

RTF is a great place to learn!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

So he has never said no to his dog?

/Paul


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## awackywabbit (Dec 24, 2012)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Good luck, Wingman!
> 
> It's my first time, too and so excited to be attending my first one next week - just to watch and meet people, then to compete in the Derby in April.
> 
> RTF is a great place to learn!


Jennifer thanks for this thread. I've been reading about Laddie on his blog and am so thankful for his sharing on his training. I trained my first retriever 11 years ago. Never ran the games but used him for hunting. I used all traditional training with him including force fetch and ecollar. I followed Lardy's trt. It worked despite my inexperience but after reading about positive training methods I've wondered for years if that would be a better fit for me and my dog. This board and most others seem to ridicule these methods but I'm seeing that starting to change which is great.

I have a new pup coming to me next week and I've decided to train positively and to hopefully compete in some of the games as well since I now have the time and money to do so. It's great to see and hear of others doing the same thing. I know traditional methods work great but I like the challenge of doing something different that might possibly be better and more comfortable for me and my dog. I look forward to continuing to learn here with you and others! No matter how you choose to train we all share the great love of these amazing dogs and the hunting games.


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