# Force Fetch and not understanding ear pressure.



## FPA Ammo (Jan 13, 2012)

I know there are a lot of Force Fetch questions and tried to find the answer to my question before posting this but didn’t find what I was looking for so this is where I am at:

I have completed my Collar Condition with my 7mo pup. I have started my FF process this week following Tom Dokkens Force fetch program. Here is his step-by-step:

Hand in Mouth Drill
Advanced Hand in Mouth
Teaching Force Fetch
Intro to the Fetching Stick
Force Fetch on the Walking Table
Holding Different Objects
Force Fetch on the Ground

So at this point I am on Hand in Mouth Drill (I have about 12 very short sessions 1-2mins with this) where I open the his mouth and have him hold my hand. He is very good at allowing me to open his mouth and very good at hold. I feel like I am at the point to move to Advanced Hand In Mouth where you start to use ear pinch but what I ran into the last 2 sessions when I used pressure on his ear he would just clinch he mouth and is very difficult to get my hand in because he is just clinching his teeth together. So I would take a step back to what he understands that when there is pressure of me grabbing the top of his mouth to my put my hand in he instantly opens his mouth and reaches for my hand. I can tell he obviously doesn’t get the ear pressure but understands the pressure of me opening his mouth as he reaches for my hand as soon as I get his mouth half way open.

Any ideas on transitioning my pressure from the roof of his mouth and pressure to his ear and getting him to open his mouth at least a little? 

Or am I doing the right thing by pinching his ear and getting my hand in any way I can and this becomes a repetition thing to where I pinch his ear he will eventually understand that I am trying to get him to open his mouth and hold? I don’t feel like this is the right thing to do… and there is an easier/better way of getting to understand what I am trying to do.

As a side note I am taking my time on this as I have obviously never FF’d a dog before so if it takes me longer I am perfectly fine with that I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. I know I am probably better off bring him to a Pro and having him do this but don’t have the money right now and I would rather learn this for future dogs of my own.

Thanks ahead of time for anyones response or suggestions.
Mike


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

I saw a pro put a string on the dogs toes. Just very slight pressure and do force fetch with no ear pinch. It puts a little stress on the dog. Hurts nothing. Different method. I think better then sticking you hand in a dogs mouth. I have done clicker training too. Whatever method you would like to use. There are several out there. Depends on the dog. Now my dogs open up the mouth but will not hold.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

featherqwest said:


> I saw a pro put a string on the dogs toes. Just very slight pressure and do force fetch with no ear pinch. It puts a little stress on the dog. Hurts nothing. Different method. I think better then sticking you hand in a dogs mouth. I have done clicker training too. Whatever method you would like to use. There are several out there. Depends on the dog. Now my dogs open up the mouth but will not hold.


So you have a dog that won't hold a bumper, but you're telling someone else to change from the method he is following to the one you are following?


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

featherqwest said:


> I saw a pro put a string on the dogs toes. Just very slight pressure and do force fetch with no ear pinch. It puts a little stress on the dog. Hurts nothing. Different method. I think better then sticking you hand in a dogs mouth. I have done clicker training too. Whatever method you would like to use. There are several out there. Depends on the dog. Now my dogs open up the mouth but will not hold.


So you didn't teach hold before fetch?


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

featherqwest said:


> I saw a pro put a string on the dogs toes. Just very slight pressure and do force fetch with no ear pinch. It puts a little stress on the dog. Hurts nothing. Different method. I think better then sticking you hand in a dogs mouth. I have done clicker training too. Whatever method you would like to use. There are several out there. Depends on the dog. Now my dogs open up the mouth but will not hold.


Robert Milner was a proponent of the paw hitch method--thirty years ago! He and just about everyone else has moved on. 

FPA Ammo- I'm not familiar with Dokken's Force Fetch, is there a verbal command accompanying the pressure?


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

Well the dog I was talking about will never go to a hunt test. She is 6 years old. I doubt that I would ever force fetch her. Just a pet. Now my other 2 goldens do hold and fetch without much pressure at all. I am not a big proponent of "force" methods. I use more positive training methods that have since been introduced by other trainers. Each method is different depending on what goals you are working towards. If you plan on going to the upper levels than the force methods have to used. Now I have seen other people use the "Amish" styles. For me the jury is still out. I have the Dokken video's. I have just about everyone's video's on training. Books included. Now I work in other venues besides field which teach praise. Dogs catch on much quicker with positive methods. I would suggest the fellow on the forum go to some workshops given by some of the good pro's. Or like me work with a pro or two. All have things to offer you can't get in video's. You can find a group to train with that is good. You can learn from others and decide what methods you want to use. That is all.


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## Dale (Dec 21, 2003)

Teach him how to turn the pressure off with a command he already knows. In my case I take the sit command which the dog knows very well put him on the table, command sit and put pressure on his earuntil he sits. The dog knows sit, it doesn't take long for him to figure out the fast he sits the faster the pressure goes away. By this time he is used to me putting something in his mouth, now I tell him fetch, put pressure on, put dowel in mouth.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I think the clinched mouth is fairly common. My techique is to hold the bumper with my thumb and first finger. Then use the other three fingers to pry the mouth open, then slide the bumper in. It takes a little coordination but it works. Just keep at and he will catch on. Lots of praise when he gets the bumper in his mouth. Have him hold for only a second or so at first. Then keep extending the time.

I have used both ear pinch and toe hitch. Some hard headed dogs take best to the toe hitch.

I am not familiar with the method you are using but I always teach hold before I go on to ff. I get the dog to hold the bumper on the table for three minutes then put him on the ground and do basic ob with the bumper in the mouth. Then I move on to ff.

Hope this helps.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

It sound like to me that you have already established the hold with the glove hand ( command HOLD) I never require the dog to open his mouth untile the fetch part of the training. I open the dogs mouth with my hand and place the object in. While holding the dogs mouth closed with two fingers I rub the side of their face and say HOLD. I start the process with a cut off broom stick raped with duck tape because if they drop the object I will give them a ear pinch and replace the object by twesting it back in from the side of their mouth. Once the dog is holding the stick, I will tap on both sides to cement the command. Again if they drop it I will give then a ear pinch and replace the object as soon as the object in in their mouth, I release the pressure. When they are working well with the stick, I will move to a differant object. From weighted object, brushes, bumpers to birds. Then I will go to the ground and do it all over with bumper and birds ( At heel and remote to delivery).
Hope this helps 
Keith


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

It seems to me asking someone about what to do next if they aren't familiar with Tom Dokken's FF method could possibly elicit the wrong approach. I did not know what Dokken's method was. Therefore, rather than give you "my best quess", I simply went to his website and found a video in which he was working with a dog at the same stage as yours. There were a few points he made that you didn't. First he stated his dogs are pre-conditioned to "turning off pressure" during OB. That may make sense (or not), but it is a critical step in training leading up to FF. 

Secondly (and to repeat), the video was in exactly the stage you are dealing with. It seems before FF, he pre-conditions his pups to touching their ears and giving them treats. He said treat training is not a regular event, but in this special case it pre-conditions the pup to "reach for something with an open mouth" when touching their ears. Then he demonstrated with the dog this simple treat vs. ear pre-conditioning. Did you do any of that? 

In addition, from what I gathered in listening, he does not do "hold" first. So there you go, apparently a step (or two) is missing (one of which is not "hold").


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## Matthew J. Ries (Jul 1, 2012)

Hey Kwick do you mind giving a link? I am also using Dokken and the ear/treat doesnt sound familiar (i reread the book chaptersnightly where we are and going) FF is a few months out but at 12-20 wks we are in hand in mouth.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I "Googled" _force fetch Tom Dokken_ and brought up several links. After writing an RTF post with the specific link, I tested the link in preview mode and ended up with a red "x". I'm not sure why, but do your own search and click on the link titled "starting your dog Force Fetching".


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## Matthew J. Ries (Jul 1, 2012)

Thank you Kwick, was searching youtube with no luck!


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## jmonte35 (Feb 25, 2012)

Op, 

It's just an avoidance that your dog is displaying.....he knows the command by now but doesn't understand the pressure.......open his mouth and stick your hand or bumper in and the let off his ear. Usually starting out won't require much pressure. Don't let him win by allowing the behavior. Be consistant and continue to pinch until compliance. Than be very happy when you get the bumper and/or hand in his mouth. Some dogs understand immediately some dogs don't. Relax and just talk calmly to your dog while applying the pressure. If you get frustrated the dog has won. You will have plenty of these mini battles to come....

A lot of "you're doing it wrong" on here but it's just a fact of force fetch. I takes time and consistency...remember bend not break. The more calm you are the more calm your dog will be. DON'T LET HIM WIN.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Good research Kwiklabs. I had never heard of this method. More than one way to skin a cat. But I don't think I will ever go there.

Probably won't find much help with this technique on this forum as most follow the traditional "hold". But I could be wrong.


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## FPA Ammo (Jan 13, 2012)

Thank for the help it is very needed. Last night I decided to go ahead and use a broom stick handle and have him hold and it was like I just performed a magic trick or something, as soon as I put it in his mouth... TA DA holding the the stick. Like I said in my original post he was/is very good with hand in mouth and holding never thought to just move to an actual object and have him hold. Dokkens video doesnt have him doing it that way so didnt like to move on to something different but what I am hearing that the way Dokken teach Hold/FF is well basically there are better methods and easier way of doing it. I did order TRT 2nd earlier this week and I am hoping to get it today so if that the case I am going to switch gear. I know I need to stick with one program but after posting that I am following Dokkens program I have heard that it would be a better idea to following a different one.

KWICKLABS: just after a day of reading and great suggestions I get with what you said with pressure "on" pressure "off" and havent followed program to where my dog doesnt get that form of training so I found my self getting frustrated but can understand now that he is missing a few things in his program.

DALE: I like your idea of using ear pinch to sit and feel that may help me with understandnig ear pressure I like that. Thank you

WAYNE: After last night I going to stick with my hold command as you have probably read through this post that he understood hold as I transitioned to an object. Thank You

Jmonte35: I get frustrated to quick some times and before blaming the dog I step back and just breath and calm down... I know the second I give in or get mad I loose but that why enjoy this because I love the learning of all of it and enjoy teaching everything I can to him.

As I am typing this post I figured I would share these pictures. this is our "Hold" table that we work on and he decided to wait for me to work on hold as there is LOTS of praise with him on his table. You can tell he enjoys being up there


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

You can get a little headstart on TRT2 by going to Lardy's website and he has a free downloadable website. Mike starts off using a bumper for hold rather than a training buck or stick.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

FPAAmmo, I have to say you've taken what has been posted and done a good job of moving forward. Recognizing "where you are at" and making adjustments for the dog's sake is a training skill not easily developed early on.

Basically, when a dog "isn't getting it", the trainer needs to change up his approach. That being said, it often difficult to receive accurate help from anyone not familiar with exactly where you and the dog are. The useful thing about any post is it forces the OP to think and adjust (or not) which is a very different mindset compared to just following directions. 

Good for you!


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

for some reason novice trainers think that going slow is the fix for lack of knowledge, it's not. overteaching is a common mistake made by beginner trainiers. it's time to move ahead, you're boaring the hell out of your dog---get off the hand and go to a bumper, move on. Teach the command until you are positive the animal understands what is expected, then force it, then give your trainee a little time to live with his new level of discipline before going to the next command
good luck
GG


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## FPA Ammo (Jan 13, 2012)

KwickLabs said:


> FPAAmmo, I have to say you've taken what has been posted and done a good job of moving forward. Recognizing "where you are at" and making adjustments for the dog sake is a training skill not easily developed early on.
> 
> Basically, when a dog "isnt' getting it", the trainer needs to change up his approach. That being said, it often difficult to receive accurate help from anyone not familiar with exactly where you and the dog are. The useful thing about any post is it forces the OP to think and adjust (or not) which is a very different mindset compared to just following directions.
> 
> Good for you!


Thank you I appreciate that a lot! with having a lot to learn its difficult to digest all the information and correctly. This is my first crack at training my own dog and feel very accoplished already with how far along I am. I am very excited for my fall hunting season that is just around the corner to see how well he does. I am sure my mind set will change from hunting for "me" to hunting for "Him"

Thanks
Mike


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Paul Brown said:


> Robert Milner was a proponent of the paw hitch method--thirty years ago! He and just about everyone else has moved on.
> 
> FPA Ammo- I'm not familiar with Dokken's Force Fetch, is there a verbal command accompanying the pressure?


It sounds like you are suggesting that the paw hitch method is not used and has been abandoned. Is that true? Also, if that is true, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is not valid. It means that it is not popular. I have used the paw hitch method and I do like it. I have used other methods too but I may return to the paw hitch method.


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

gdgnyc said:


> It sounds like you are suggesting that the paw hitch method is not used and has been abandoned. Is that true? Also, if that is true, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is not valid. It means that it is not popular. I have used the paw hitch method and I do like it. I have used other methods too but I may return to the paw hitch method.


The post to which I was referring, was made by someone whose dog is not properly force fetched, by his own admission, "won't hold". Suggesting the OP abandon his program at this point to adopt the paw hitch method was wrong. Keep in mind, the OP is following a proven program and is having trouble moving the dog from the first to the second step. I was trying to emphasize that, not take issue with your training methods.

FFA Ammo--Great news. Glad everything worked out. Pup looks happy to be working with you. the makings of a great team!


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Paul Brown said:


> The post to which I was referring, was made by someone whose dog is not properly force fetched, by his own admission, "won't hold". Suggesting the OP abandon his program at this point to adopt the paw hitch method was wrong. Keep in mind, the OP is following a proven program and is having trouble moving the dog from the first to the second step. I was trying to emphasize that, not take issue with your training methods.
> 
> FFA Ammo--Great news. Glad everything worked out. Pup looks happy to be working with you. the makings of a great team!


I really didn't think you were taking issue with my methods. I really don't know what is popular these days with FF. I am surprised to hear that the paw hitch may not be used that much.


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

gdgnyc said:


> I really didn't think you were taking issue with my methods. I really don't know what is popular these days with FF. I am surprised to hear that the paw hitch may not be used that much.


I believe that most trainers that still use the toe pinch use it as a tool with a specific application. For instance, transitioning the dog from table to ground. But, I don't mean to speak for them.

I still have a copy of Milner's Retriever Training for the Duck Hunter. It was the first training program I ever saw--trained two good dogs with it. It is interesting to go back and look at that book and then look at SmartWorks or Total Retriever Training or Hillman and see how things have evolved.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Paul Brown said:


> I believe that most trainers that still use the toe pinch use it as a tool with a specific application. For instance, transitioning the dog from table to ground. But, I don't mean to speak for them.
> 
> I still have a copy of Milner's Retriever Training for the Duck Hunter. It was the first training program I ever saw--trained two good dogs with it. It is interesting to go back and look at that book and then look at SmartWorks or Total Retriever Training or Hillman and see how things have evolved.


Milner's book does a really fine job describing that method of FF. That is the method I had used in the past for force fetching.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I believe I first heard of the toe-hitch method being used with pointing breeds.


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## FPA Ammo (Jan 13, 2012)

So to give you guys an idea where I am now. I have switched gears and now have TRT 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] edition that I am following and like much better than Dokkens video. I have made things more fun for the dog with using more interesting things like a paint roller and wooden dowel which is funny because the first time I put a dowel in his mouth he would instantly spit it out now I have him comfortably holding onto it with little to no issues. He is holding bumpers wooden dowels and paint rollers very will, with working on sit here and heal which is going very good, now and I feel I am at the point where I can start to reintroduce ear pinch again but have 2 more questions.


So how persistent do I have be with forcing the bumper in his mouth for him to understand that releasing the pressure on his ear the bumper goes in his mouth? 

How much of the ear pinch is timing, meaning the length of time that you pinch his ear until you put the bumper in their mouth? I assume you want them to feel uncomfortable for a small period of time but don’t want to get to great lengths. Before asking these questions I did watch multiple videos try and see if I could find any of them that show the lengths of ear pinch before getting the bumper/paint roller/wooden dowel in there mouth.

Thanks Guys/Gals
Mike


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## jmonte35 (Feb 25, 2012)

FPA Ammo said:


> So to give you guys an idea where I am now. I have switched gears and now have TRT 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] edition that I am following and like much better than Dokkens video. I have made things more fun for the dog with using more interesting things like a paint roller and wooden dowel which is funny because the first time I put a dowel in his mouth he would instantly spit it out now I have him comfortably holding onto it with little to no issues. He is holding bumpers wooden dowels and paint rollers very will, with working on sit here and heal which is going very good, now and I feel I am at the point where I can start to reintroduce ear pinch again but have 2 more questions.
> 
> 
> So how persistent do I have be with forcing the bumper in his mouth for him to understand that releasing the pressure on his ear the bumper goes in his mouth?
> ...


Begin pinching as soon as you give the command and don't release until compliance.....if you don't do this he will use whatever technique he used to relieve the pressure. Meaning if he rolls or crys or lays down....then you stop putting pressure on he will think....ok if I roll the pressure stops, so I'll just do that. 

He needs to understand the only way to turn off pressure is grabbing and holding...period. To ensure he doesn't get away from you grab his collar and pinch his ear around the collar.....it makes it easier to keep control of a dog that is avoiding. Lots of praise when compliant. Short sessions. 

Your putting a lot of weight on the dog at this point so just be consistant. Don't feel bad for him.....imagine you are a coach training a kid not to fumble the football on your football team...if he fumbles he does up/downs til he pukes....well same thing except you are using an ear pinch and he shouldn't puke. Also like in football there will come a time where your kid will spit out the bumper....just like a kid will probably fumble again.....well guess what up/downs until he pukes/ear pinch until compliance.

As for timing....like I said keep pressure on until compliance and NEVER let him fail. If he won't comply open his mouth and put bumper in his mouth than release pressure. You must keep pressure on until compliance. At first I usually will let the dog fuss for about 10-15 seconds if he doesn't get it by then...I will open his mouth and stick the bumper in. It seems like you will need 4 hands but it isn't that bad once you get used to it. There will be many small battles along the way. It is important to have and win these battles. This is what force fetch is all about. It's just as important to have these battles as it is to win them....remember avoidance and refusals aren't necessarily a bad thing...they are a chance to train.


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## FPA Ammo (Jan 13, 2012)

jmonte35 said:


> Begin pinching as soon as you give the command and don't release until compliance.....if you don't do this he will use whatever technique he used to relieve the pressure. Meaning if he rolls or crys or lays down....then you stop putting pressure on he will think....ok if I roll the pressure stops, so I'll just do that.
> 
> He needs to understand the only way to turn off pressure is grabbing and holding...period. To ensure he doesn't get away from you grab his collar and pinch his ear around the collar.....it makes it easier to keep control of a dog that is avoiding. Lots of praise when compliant. Short sessions.
> 
> ...


I think thats exactly what I needed to hear for me it couldnt have been better put. Thank you


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

FPA Ammo said:


> So to give you guys an idea where I am now. I have switched gears and now have TRT 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] edition that I am following and like much better than Dokkens video. I have made things more fun for the dog with using more interesting things like a paint roller and wooden dowel which is funny because the first time I put a dowel in his mouth he would instantly spit it out now I have him comfortably holding onto it with little to no issues. He is holding bumpers wooden dowels and paint rollers very will, with working on sit here and heal which is going very good, now and I feel I am at the point where I can start to reintroduce ear pinch again but have 2 more questions.
> 
> 
> So how persistent do I have be with forcing the bumper in his mouth for him to understand that releasing the pressure on his ear the bumper goes in his mouth?
> ...


Even though I do not use TRT, from the outline that was posted in your first OP and this one. This program sound like it has more detail. 

BTW. In my opion, the more time you spend and the more solid you have them holding the smaller objects, make the larger objects easier for them. I even make them hold a small dumbell. Where the dowl inbetween is not much bigger then a pencel.


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## fetchtx (May 12, 2005)

I think you cannot overdo hold work to start. I use as many as 8 different objects and every dog has its preferences but as most dogs I do are in just after perm teeth are in I usually start with canvas or fire hose small bumpers then move on to the others including doken ducks and dowls, bumpers with wings attached etc. All mine are done on force table. The toe hitch I tried over the years maybe twice, and I can see that some think if you yank on a toe, they will naturally fight it and reach down to bite what ever is doing it and insert something to take it out on into their mouth. My prob is the co ordination for that is much harder than the ear pinch where you have the dogs head under control and limited movement to start from a sitting position until good then gradually picking it up off table. Hope this helps. I do know that spending more time on holding limits the force time.


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## jmonte35 (Feb 25, 2012)

fetchtx said:


> I think you cannot overdo hold work to start. I use as many as 8 different objects and every dog has its preferences but as most dogs I do are in just after perm teeth are in I usually start with canvas or fire hose small bumpers then move on to the others including doken ducks and dowls, bumpers with wings attached etc. All mine are done on force table. The toe hitch I tried over the years maybe twice, and I can see that some think if you yank on a toe, they will naturally fight it and reach down to bite what ever is doing it and insert something to take it out on into their mouth. My prob is the co ordination for that is much harder than the ear pinch where you have the dogs head under control and limited movement to start from a sitting position until good then gradually picking it up off table. Hope this helps. I do know that spending more time on holding limits the force time.


Not to create argument but I don't believe a ton of time needs to be spent on hold nor do I think 8 objects for hold is neccessary either. Once they understand what hold is force fetch should polish the rest. I don't think you're saving as much time as you think by staying with hold for a long period of time. I have always just used a bumper and paint roller....once force is done it doesn't matter what I put in front of them...they know that they pick it up and bring it to me because I said so. If you want to waste time I say spend more time on OB.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Just a note or two: 
Mike uses a choke chain and lead, a Dummy e-collar, a heeling stick, and a small white knobby bumper. 
DVD mentions usng a wooden dowell if the dog has real problems with the bumper.
Mike says don't work on hold until its perfect, you will iron out when you start ear pinch.



FPA Ammo said:


> So how persistent do I have be with forcing the bumper in his mouth for him to understand that releasing the pressure on his ear the bumper goes in his mouth?


Not exactly sure what you mean... You say the command, pinch, and force the bumper into the dogs mouth, and immediately release the pinch. You continue/persist in this until the dog starts to reach for the bumper. 



FPA Ammo said:


> How much of the ear pinch is timing, meaning the length of time that you pinch his ear until you put the bumper in their mouth? I assume you want them to feel uncomfortable for a small period of time but don’t want to get to great lengths. Before asking these questions I did watch multiple videos try and see if I could find any of them that show the lengths of ear pinch before getting the bumper/paint roller/wooden dowel in there mouth.


You immediately put the bumper in the dog's mouth after starting the pinch. You don't pinch and wait before putting the bumper in. The dog will start to reach to turn off the pressure as quickly as possible.

Stop watching multiple videos. If you want the TRT system to work, it is important that you get off to a correct start. FF is the basis for the entire program. Re-watch the TRT section on FF and do what it says and you will be successful. Start mixing in methods from other programs and you will not be successful. Its really that simple.


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## jmonte35 (Feb 25, 2012)

captainjack said:


> Just a note or two:
> 
> You immediately put the bumper in the dog's mouth after starting the pinch. You don't pinch and wait before putting the bumper in. The dog will start to reach to turn off the pressure as quickly as possible.
> .


The dog should already understand fetch/hold from your basic hold sessions. Your living in dream world if you think every dog opens their mouth to grab the bumper when you start forcing with pinch. I always command fetch/pinch and most dogs will fuss for a moment before opening their mouth and reaching for it. I start inches away but they need to go get it not me put it in.....by the time we start force we are done with me putting it in their mouth THEY NEED to get it. That being said I don't let them fail...stubborn dogs you have to force their mouth open the first couple pinches. 

I think in the end you should get similar results but I always allow them to turn it off not me turn it off for them unless I absolutely have to.


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## fetchtx (May 12, 2005)

Whatever works, your paint roller advice or mine or whoever can help is all that matters. As to causing argument while typing--not worth the effort, have a good day.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

jmonte35 said:


> The dog should already understand fetch/hold from your basic hold sessions. Your living in dream world if you think every dog opens their mouth to grab the bumper when you start forcing with pinch. I always command fetch/pinch and most dogs will fuss for a moment before opening their mouth and reaching for it. I start inches away but they need to go get it not me put it in.....by the time we start force we are done with me putting it in their mouth THEY NEED to get it. That being said I don't let them fail...stubborn dogs you have to force their mouth open the first couple pinches.
> 
> I think in the end you should get similar results but I always allow them to turn it off not me turn it off for them unless I absolutely have to.


The dog can not understand the fetch command until it is taught. In TRT this is not done until after hold is taught. The fetch command is not introduced until the ear pinch is used. The OP says he is now following TRT2. In TRT2, Mike Lardy teaches to force the bumper into the dogs mouth then stop the pinch. Mike *does not* teach pinch until the dog opens his mouth. The dog comes to understand the contrast between bumper in the mouth = no pinch vs. bumper not in the mouth = pinch. The dog will most definitely begin to open his mouth and accept the bumper, then begin to reach for the bumper. This is important in the TRT sequence as you transition to walking fetch, stick fetch, and stick to the pile.

There are many other methods to teach FF. However I think it is important to teach it per TRT if you intend to follow TRT on through FTP and TT.


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## jmonte35 (Feb 25, 2012)

captainjack said:


> The dog can not understand the fetch command until it is taught. In TRT this is not done until after hold is taught. The fetch command is not introduced until the ear pinch is used. The OP says he is now following TRT2. In TRT2, Mike Lardy teaches to force the bumper into the dogs mouth then stop the pinch. Mike *does not* teach pinch until the dog opens his mouth. The dog comes to understand the contrast between bumper in the mouth = no pinch vs. bumper not in the mouth = pinch. The dog will most definitely begin to open his mouth and accept the bumper, then begin to reach for the bumper. This is important in the TRT sequence as you transition to walking fetch, stick fetch, and stick to the pile.
> 
> There are many other methods to teach FF. However I think it is important to teach it per TRT if you intend to follow TRT on through FTP and TT.


Like I said perfect world...what about when you pinch and the dog doesn't open it's mouth....or it trys to roll and get out of the way....eventually you will have a struggle. At some point the dog will need to perform that's all I'm saying. Not all dogs readily open their mouth when they are pinched even though the video would like you to think so. 

By no means what you are saying is wrong....but the problem is the what ifs....too many questions go unanswered that's why the best way to see exactly what to do is go to a pro...I think there are a million ways to get there but I think a dog must be required to perform.

ALSO YOU JUST SAID MIKE DOESN'T TEACH FETCH UNTIL THE DOG OPENS ITS MOUTH.....how does the dog know to open its mouth? I've not used his method but that doesn't make sense. Hold is not an open mouth command....

Using pinch and forcing the bumper into the mouth is just different from what I'm used to. When I teach hold I also introduce the command fetch. I say fetch force hand/object into to mouth then say hold....without pressure. Than adding pressure he now needs to perform and turn it off. I also teach the pressure of an ear pinch with the sit command so they understand pinch means compliance. 

Just a different way to get to the end result.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

jmonte35 said:


> Like I said perfect world...what about when you pinch and the dog doesn't open it's mouth....or it trys to roll and get out of the way....eventually you will have a struggle. At some point the dog will need to perform that's all I'm saying. Not all dogs readily open their mouth when they are pinched even though the video would like you to think so.


If the dog doesn't open its mouth, you force the bumper in. You keep doing this until the dog opens his mouth on his own. That's the point of what I'm saying. I've never had a dog readily open its mouth on the first ear pinch, and I haven't had a dog *not* open its mouth ("perform") after several repititions of me forcing the bumper in the dogs mouth and releasing the pinch. Some got the deal quicker than others but they all got it. Now, I've only put 5 dogs through the TRT program so I won't say that what you say won't happen. But, then again, you aren't FFing following the same (Lardy's) method as I am.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

When you get a dog that doesn't open his or her mouth, then take bumper and push downward on dog's lower jaw and rotate the bumper inwards. When dog complies, then rotate the bumper outwards and then big time praise. Watch their eyes...

My penny worth.

Edit to post: Sorry folks, just had a brain fart....When you rotate the bumper outwards, make sure that you push down on dog's lower jaw while rotating out, just in case they, dog, clams(sp) up.


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## FPA Ammo (Jan 13, 2012)

Good news guys with all the suggestions from my previous post, which I can't believe, he has figured out ear pinch by forcing in anyway possible and now this morning is already reaching for the bumper! WOW is it a good feeling when something comes together like it has. Its a big acheivement now but still have a long ways ahead of me. THANKS again everyone with all your suggestions it has helped me get through what i thought was going to be impossible for him to understand.

Thanks
Mike


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