# Noise on line correction - how..??



## Shane Olean (May 5, 2006)

My ~28mo BLM is developing some bad line manners - he will (mostly in test situations when he's jacked) yip and or bark in excitement when setting up for the marks or blind - 

He will MORE FREQUENTLY bark or yip when cast to retrieve the mark or blind - 

In either event it's becoming more than a distraction and is starting to interfere with his performance - anyone have any suggestions on steps to fix this (short of any sound back in the truck then back out then back in /out/in/out till he shuts up??)

Thanks!!!


SMO


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

No retrieves and make them sit and watch while you have the gunners pick up the marks and set back up.......

Also if it is bad at tests, then no more tests until he is perfect in training!

FOM


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## bandcollector (Oct 9, 2003)

Bark Collar


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## Travis R. Bullock (May 11, 2005)

I think for a really high dog with vocal issues one of the best things to do is; grab the dog by the muzzle tell them No Noise, pull them off of the line and put them back in the trailer, truck etc. until your next series or even until the next day if necessary. Have the gunner pick up the bird and move on to the next dog.

Take Care,

Travis R. Bullock


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I think having the dog watch sends aclear picture that if you aren't quiet then you don't get the birds, the gunners do and we try again.....putting in the truck doesn't allow that connection.....but what do I know??

FOM


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## Travis R. Bullock (May 11, 2005)

I agree with you, I think it really depends on the individual dog. Some high dogs will just sit and be vocal while watching another dog pick up marks so sometimes it is back in the trailer period.

Take Care,

Travis R. Bullock


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## Tom H. (May 17, 2005)

A training partner of mine just went through this with his dog -- Was told to try a bark collar staked out on the line so he could watch every mark go down , No help there , Tried smacking him with the heeling stick and saying quite - no help there either - A pro whom will remain nameless said to try the blanket trick -- ever heard of it -- me either until he suggested it -- stake dog out on line - let dog see marks go down - if dog barks or whimpers threw blanket on him and use heeling stick on him and say quite -- seems to have worked and only in a couple sessions -- maybe worth a shot for ya --
________
HONDA MT125 SPECIFICATIONS


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## LuvMyLab (Dec 4, 2006)

I think a more human and positive way to break noise on the line is Attrition. 

You walk the dog to the line. 
Let me see a mark.
If he makes noise heel him off the line and back to the truck.
Leave him there for a time.
Bring him to the line and repeat.
He will get that if he barks or whines he gets not retrieve.

I'm sure that some dogs will take several sessions to correct but I have seen this work.

I'm new and this is just my 2-cents


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## muddyriver (Dec 15, 2005)

There is drill that Mike Lardy uses for steading that you could use here. Have a Bird boy throw a mark with less excitment. If the dog bark at line or when sent call him back. Correct (verval or grabing mussel). Repeat!. When the dog is doing that good start bringing up the excitment. You can start as simple as drop a dummy in front of the bird boy. We starting doing this last night for a guys dog. and seem to work, but you need to do this for several (5 or better ) days in a row to get the point. Keep standards high in training. Good luck


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Heres a technique that I've seen work. 

Get a spray bottle and fill with 10% lemon juice/water mix. And then when dog begins vocalizing, give him a squirt in the face with a "quiet" command. Do not send if there is a mark going down as the dog will flinch with the spray and you might start other problems. Pull the dog and repeat until dog is quiet. If you have the help, switch off and have the "acting judge" spray and give the command. Watch your dog and if vocalization continues, up the lemon juice concentration. Watch the dog and if there is an anticipitory flinch, again do not send the dog on any long marks but maybe throw a happy go bumper if the dog is quiet.

Saw it used a couple of times and semed to work. Also it is a take-off of a competitive obedience technique, and early puppy avoidence training techniques. 

T. Mac


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

T. Mac said:


> Heres a technique that I've seen work.
> 
> Get a spray bottle and fill with 10% lemon juice/water mix. And then when dog begins vocalizing, give him a shot in the face with a "quiet" command. If you have the help, switch off and have the "acting judge" spray and give the command. Watch your dog and if vocalization continues, up the lemon juice concentration.
> 
> ...


Vinegar works a smidge better - it basically takes their breathe away - try it, open a bottle of the stuff and try to smell it!  

FOM


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## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

I have the same problem with my new pup and I had to just pick her up at her first hunt test and put her up. That was tough to do but I couldn't let her get the idea that she could get away with that in a test situation. I did not enter her in any other tests this year as we worked on this problem. I have done a lot of what was described above. It is much better in training but will still happen when she is jacked up. I am glad to read this post because it gives me some new things to try. I am going to try her again in a Derby in a couple weeks and see what happens but I am already prepared to just pick her up if she does it again. This is a tough problem to correct.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I've never had this problem until last year. That being said, we are a work in progress right now. I've read a lot on this, and listened to many possible solutions. Also, there are many that seem to think this is an extremely difficult problem to solve...because it is. I accept the fact he may have gotten where he is now by mistakes I may have made earlier, so it becomes a challenge to figure out how to correct this. 

Here's my plan based on "modified behavior" rather than *making* the dog behave. First, the dog needs to adjust. Making a dog do something is a whole lot more difficult than teaching a new behavior.....especially in the heat of adrenalin plus the inability to apply the usual corrections in testing vs. training. 

Recently, we have seen on the Farmer/Aycock Problem and Solutions DVD the technique of "stepping back" leaving a dog "out front" (not at heel) and correcting for not heeling when the dog is a creeper. In a dog training seminar I attended (earlier this year), responsiveness was considered a key component of a dog in balance. Obviously, a dog barking at the line is not in balance. Also, it is a known fact amongst some dog trainers that to succeed you have to think like a dog and "get into their heads". 

So why does a dog bark? He is usually steady, but not really.....because barking is a manifestation of a dog that isn't steady. It is like the proverbial "leak in the dike". 1) He wants to go forward so badly and knows he can't. So he releases the pressure of "staying put" by barking. 2) His responsiveness is away from the handler (that's why it is so difficult to correct).

Now a second fact comes into play here which I was not aware of until the "Trainin' in the Timber" seminar. A correction for a known skill violation must occur in less than 2 seconds for it to meaningful. Not wanting to start a tangent with this, but it is something I accept. 

I've been told being analytical can be a curse, but this is what I've done to knit all this together. Ducks up close make Kooly bark. If I make it a poison bird, it gets even worse. "Here/heel" means more vocalization. He resents it, and will take any direct correction method (within reason) that can be dished out. Nothing had changed for some time (almost a year now).

Taken off the line is not effective because 1) dogs like this are so "jacked" the word consequence is meaningless and 2) taking off line (to where ever) fails to meet the criteria for the "2 second rule'. Also, "getting in his face" and confrontational corrections "feed the beast". 

Here's what I decided to do a week ago. In the yard we are doing a ton of backward heeling. I want the dog to understand going forward is not the only choice, and I want him very adept at heeling away from the line.

When marks are thrown, he must move backwards first before any retrieve is made. The idea is to get him to be more responsive and aware of my presence and less driven to go forward. This over time will make vocalizations unnecessary. The barking (manifested by a lack of responsiveness and high drive to go forward) will disappear. Heeling infractions will be a powerful indirect pressure restoring the balance. 

So this is what I am doing 1) an exciting bird goes down (close, water often, lots of duck calling and shooting, 2) as it drops I casually step back (Problem and Solutions technique for a creeper), 3) a quiet heel is commanded (no release), 4) a moderate heel/stick/heel or heel/nick/heel is applied (indirect pressure for the barking) and I wait. Depending on the situation, I may step back again. I want the dog looking to me to see where I'm at and break down his out of balance urge to go. I actually want him to make eye contact. He has!

On a side note, I can get away with this because Kooly is a very good marker. He can look away and still step on the marks. He takes good pictures!

At first, Kooly was completely oblivious to the fact that I was no longer beside him. After a few days, I could see him glance quickly back to see where I was. To me this meant I was gaining some responsiveness. The last few days his body language seems to suggest that he knows he'll have to heel (no pun intended) before a retrieve. The goal will be for him to "sneak back" with me when I start to move. Togetherness is neat. :lol: 

At this stage, he knows I'm there and now I can say "quiet/good". I can talk to him and it registers. He is gradually changing to the "new more aware routine". I think this will require continual maintenance, but the maintenance routine will be clear and fair for Kooly. And if this doesn’t work, he won’t be any the worse off. 

We cannot have screaming as an emotional release....so an alternative must be taught. One bad habit is replaced with a meaningful one. The beast is not being fed. 

I like what I see so far. And yes, I'm catching some flack for the idea. But you know what? I don't care for the other ideas because they don't teach the dog anything. Consequences are much more of a thinking human's concept, rather than those of a "jacked up" dog high on adrenalin. 8)


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Very good post, I have the same issue with a young dog and will be trying what you suggested!


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## Topgun (Dec 1, 2005)

Jim:

One of the most interesting and thought provoking posts that I've seen here. Good stuff.

K Ford


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## okvet (Jun 20, 2006)

Jim--very nice post! I like your way of thinking.

You make Rody proud :lol:


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

I've got a dog that gets a 'bit' high and can be vocal at the line as well and we've been backing up to address our tendency to want to creep - I didn't really notice it until your post, but he has greatly decreased his line 'grumbling' during that same time...


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

FOM said:


> Vinegar works a smidge better - it basically takes their breathe away.


It also works better because dogs equate vinegar with urine.


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

Dandy post, Jim. Having had a 'vocal' dog of a different sort...only vocal when sent...I'm with you in your assessment of a cure.

I especially concur with this statement:.. "He is gradually changing to the "new more aware routine". I think this will require continual maintenance, but the maintenance routine will be clear and fair for Kooly."

It will require "maintenence". My correction for Bull was to make him a primary select dog. As long as I didn't send him for the go bird right away, he had to think about more than how fast he wanted to pick up and retrieve the bird. But even in his final year at age 9, if he was immediately sent, he left yipping.

I see this manifested in young dogs so anxious to get to the mark, especially in water, they will yip all the way to the bird. Another "Bullyism", until the primary selection was taught and practiced. When he was sent for another mark, he never made a sound.

This is different than the vocalizing at the line when the marks are falling, but most pros I discussed this problem with, found the line vocalizing an easier problem to deal with. 

But I agree with you, that in all these cases, the dog needs to be taught to concentrate on SOMETHING...whatever it is...because the yipping and vocalizations are mindlessly subconscious. When the dog is 'aware' of what it's doing, then the yipping frequently disappears, as the dog concentrates on what it is about to do.

UB


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Jim, what a post. It is very thought provoking. I too have owned a dog that could not keep himself quiet. I tried everything to fix the behavior but never thought about the modifying the behavior.

My barker is gone now but am very curious as to the outcome with your dog. Let us know.

Janet


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Interesting post Jim. Let us know how it works out.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I, too, think Jim's ideas are sound. With creeping, vocalization, and some mouth problems, I find it more effective to address the dog's emotional state than to "add consequences." I have done the back-to-the-truck routine, and find it works better on some than others.

I had been thinking in terms of lowering the emotional level, but Jim is quite right--when the dogs improve, they show a lot better focus on teamwork with me as a handler, and less single-minded concentration on wanting to get away and get the bird. I've had good results so far, but I'm going to incorporate more heeling work and I bet they'll get better.

Amy Dahl


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

LuvMyLab said:


> I think a more human and positive way to break noise on the line is Attrition.
> 
> You walk the dog to the line.
> Let me see a mark.
> ...


I've used this procedure, and it works!


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Another thing for dog that bark on the line.

Give them a bumper or bird, before coming to the line. They can't back with them in their mouth.
A bird (duck) is better because it fills up the mouth.
If the dog is quiet as the marks go down, remove the bumper/bird and send. If not, back to the truck.

I attended a Jim Van Eagan seminar for young dogs some years back. He told a story of a clients dog that was vocal on the line. When the dog made noise, "No, quiet" and back to the truck. Every day the same thing.
This proceeded to happen all summer long. The dog got no marks!!
One the last day, as Jim was preparing to return home, he brought the dog to the line, and threw a mark. The dog was quiet. He let him go.
Took all summer to solve, but he got it solved.


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## Chuck N (Mar 21, 2006)

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> Very good post, I have the same issue with a young dog and will be trying what you suggested!


I can't believe no one has suggested clubing your dog with a bat as a solution.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Taking suggestions my freind, that's how we learn.

Here's another Sit means Sit, wait she is sitting right?


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## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

Jim,

I also like your approach. Collar corrections only made the problem worse and the heeling stick slowed down the whining but did not stop it. Denial of the retreive has had the most impact for me though. Putting her in the crate and making her watch other dogs work, then bringing her back to try again has quieted her down better than any correction. I also have the Aycock/Farmer video but I did not make the connection you did but I like your approach. I am going to give that a try and will let you know my results.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Something along the same lines that I have tried with my pup is doing the Pat Nolan stuff where the dog is taught to cast to a platform. I put the dog on the platform, throw the bumper, heel off the platform, then release for the mark. Have the dog front finish. Cast back to the platform with the bumper or bird in its mouth. There is a lot of stuff that can be done with that, that makes them work for a mark.

In other work I was doing with my dog, she would bark when ever I said the word 'mark'. I'd say 'mark', she'd bark, I'd say 'quiet' 'here' and put her in the kennel. I had the kennel out on the ground. 

If I ever get her out in the excitement of a crowd I expect she will 'bark' again but she does not bark in the training that I do any longer. That is a small success that I have had. The casting to a platform (top of a kennel half with outdoor carpet on it) helps with casting too.

My pup is like a little ferrari circus performer, but she doesn't really like a dead bird, and is far from steady. I did all that casting to a kennel stuff because it was easy for her.


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## Burt Fosse (Jan 12, 2007)

blabman said:


> Mike Peters-labguy23 said:
> 
> 
> > Very good post, I have the same issue with a young dog and will be trying what you suggested!
> ...


I do see a few posts in this thread with using the healing stick. The use of a Wiffle ball bat is a more effective way of getting your dogs attention. It is larger than a wip(more surface area to distribute the blow on the dog) and makes more noise. Both of these combined help the process where a healing stick is applyed be more effective for the training. Just my $.02.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

blabman said:


> Mike Peters-labguy23 said:
> 
> 
> > Very good post, I have the same issue with a young dog and will be trying what you suggested!
> ...


At a Lardy seminar I went to, one of the dogs had a noise problem. I definitely don't call it clubing, but will say that the dog at one point or another was touched on the snout with the stick.

The dog that was trained to heel on the left was made to heel on the right as part on the training and received corrections for that also. It was definitely not something for just any dog, or a puppy for that matter.

I heard someone say recently that if a dog develops a bad habit it takes more force to correct it. Thats my explanation for it, but I don't know because I don't train dogs.


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## Burt Fosse (Jan 12, 2007)

DL said:


> blabman said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Peters-labguy23 said:
> ...


Seems to me that blabman just wants to cause trouble with Mike and is not very interested in alternate training methods for extreme cases. I gather this from other post from blabman to Mike.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Teach quiet, it has helped with one of my labs. Use every opportunity, in the house etc for no noise. 

Correct (within the accepted time frame) for noise disobedience, in whatever way you think helps. I would not start at rushed training or group training, but slowly, so the unacceptable behaviour is clearer.

On this subject, who has never stretched their dogs capabilities at group training? Dogs seemingly learn bad habits so much quicker than required "good" habits. 

Bad habits are damm hard work to change.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Blabman has trained 1 dog, and does not agree with the training methods of 2 well known pro's methods that I have used. We now have my dogs vocalness under control with the use of a wiffle bat and more stringent obediance standards.

Chuck, seriously did you really want to start throwing mud? Don't make me do that please, it's up to you to let this go now.


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## LuvMyLab (Dec 4, 2006)

That was a great read KwickLabs.

I've printed it out  cause my 9month lab is starting to make noise and I can use this to put an end to it before it becomes a habit


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Kudos to KwickLabs. I found it very refreshing that he took the chance on offering a suggestion that does not follow the "party line" so to speak. I have been feeling that something was way off with my dog using the standard stick and/or denial methods as he just kept getting higher and wilder and vocalization only raised its ugly head when the corrections got sterner. After reading his post carefully, I went back to what has worked inthe past. I have to get him refocused on me, not the mark. After just one afternoon in the yard using Kwicks ideas, we had a remarkably improved training session this morning. No, its not instant, yes it will always have to be maintained, but now I can see progress where before I was ready to hang up my whistle and go home. In retrospect, I can see that nearly every issue we have overcome, has not been via force or pressure, but redirection and a return to basic ob work. 
"no adding fuel to the fire" regards
Carol


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I tried a large jar of peanut butter. It worked pretty well and the duck had a nice peanut marinate going on delivery. Course it was hard to get him to focus on the gun station unless the thrower yelled "jiffy"


/paul


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

It's been a whole day, and I've been waiting for someone to request a clarafication of the last post. 8) 

Also, is it smooth or chunky? :wink:


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I'm thinking the PB kinda glues the jaws shut, thus no noise. But then again, considering the source, I am sure thats far too obvious. :twisted:


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

KwickLabs said:


> It's been a whole day, and I've been waiting for someone to request a clarafication of the last post. 8)
> 
> Also, is it smooth or chunky? :wink:


Please! Paul is trying to lead someone astray. He knows all to well that PB causes even bigger mouth issues than the one it tries to cure, most notably....Sticking!


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## BillJensWorkingLabs (May 31, 2006)

Very good post from kwicklabs, I did the same with mine, and had excellent results...he does not make any noise now on the line. I also use this occasionally while heeling when we first get out of the kennel & he's all fired up if necessary.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Good post Jim. I'm kinda surprised though that your dog didn't give you a similar response when you did a poison bird? Why???

Because you changed the dogs expectations when it came to the line. Instead of getting the marks it thought it was getting,,,, it had to do a directed retrieve which is obedience. Maybe your dogs skill level wasn't high enough at the time or you didn't hang in there long enough? I don't know,,, but breaking momentum is breaking momentum and changing a dogs expectations is just that.

KISS,,,,

Angie


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Angie B said:


> I don't know,,, but breaking momentum is breaking momentum and changing a dogs expectations is just that.
> 
> KISS,,,,
> 
> Angie


Angie and others,

I ain't  ever going to have enough time to know it all. Your post reminded me of a video (yes another damm video), which I was watching last night regarding training. The ways to break momentum but still retain the open door drive threshold ie like creeping, throwing a bumper behind either from yourself or another thrower. 

Keep those damm dogs guessing. 

Training is fun.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> I'm kinda surprised though that your dog didn't give you a similar response when you did a poison bird? Why???


Well, Angie the dog is not the same in training. Up until recently, I had not been able to duplicate the issues that rage up in a hunt test, and he has not seen many. He'll be four in November and been in only seven well spaced hunt tests. His last two were AKC Senior July, 2006 and HRC Seasoned June, 2007. In fact, you might have seen him go down in flames in the water series at that very hot Wisconsin Am hunt test last July. 

When not "innoculated" with the adrenalin rush of test day.......he trains quite well. He is an exceptional marker and a total team player on blinds with great lining abilities. However, at the line......in a test.....he has not been fun.......and a total stranger. :lol: 

Also, we did a whole lot of Evan's "stuff" leading up to poison blind skills.....the Four Phase Drills and Definitive Casting Drills which thoroughly transition a dog to poison birds. He is totally comfortable with being taken off one mark to pick up a cold blind.......when not amped out of his tree. So he can impress you regularly in training......because most of the time he is all there. Also, I think "here/heel" to the other side (to get something else) for some reason does not mean the same thing to him as go backward before picking up an exciting bird. 

For sure I don't have all the answers on what we are doing, but I'm comfortable with the general approach.....especially more so with the positive feedback received on this thread. 

The reason we are getting these reactions now is because Kooly is seeing a ton of "in your face" marks, a lot of shooting at the line and being asked to move backwards when amped. I started overstimulating him in training. By doing this I may be able to deal with what was only happening in tests before. 

The pro I work with ask me to let him take Kooly to the line the other day. He has not run him for two years. After a short time, his comment was "He's different." Meaning what he did with the choker tab (a couple quick snaps...nothing more) normally would have had Kooly melting into a soft pile of jello. It didn't happen. The younger Kooly was always extremely sensitive and soft. 

Why wait until now? It really doesn't make much difference because Kooly is not the same dog he was two years ago. The term washout had been tossed around with Kooly when he was younger (more than once). He didn't handle pressure very well at all. He still doesn't deal with it in a normal way, and Kooly has become a project. He is what he is.....and his early training and mental makeup got him where he is today. Close, but no cigar. 8) 

The good part about this whole situation is I still enjoy training Kooly. :wink:


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

*NOISE ON LINE*

This has been an interesting thread. This topic often brings out some good insight. The following is a treatment that has become a standard for my use, especially as I've continued to encounter noisy dogs at seminars around the country.

NOISE ON LINE

I agree that noise on line is a violation of a trained dog’s “Sit” standard, provided we are willing to do the necessary training to convey that context to the dog. In order to communicate with the dog in a manner he/she can understand I think we need to shed some popular treatments that have more to do with how a human would see things than how dogs understand them, and deal in behavioral terms that our dogs can understand and readily relate to in these situations. Dogs are situational learners. Understanding this fundamental premise will lead to more effective treatments of unacceptable behavior.

I think it is also important to do what we do in a way that doesn’t necessarily take the dog down emotionally in the process. Remember, most of what you’re asking of the dog is your idea, not his.

As usual, the best treatments for this are not always the most convenient. This will require the trainer to be committed to bettering the situation so that we don’t get caught up in some quick fix, especially not one involving too much pressure, or pressure of the wrong kind.

One of the poorest applications of pressure for noise on line is a bark collar. A close second is an e-collar. Both elicit the very response we are seeking to suppress; noise. You shock the dog, and the dog responds by vocalizing. Both instruments have appropriate uses, but this situation isn’t one of them. I’m only a marginal fan of bark collars for any purpose, and never personally use them. They provide results now and then that convince a trainer that they’re a magic bullet for such problems. But being lucky and being smart are not the same things.

Not everyone can put himself or herself in a position to have their dogs on line for a multiple honor (several dog/handler teams on line at once, honoring a mark), but that’s one of the best situations you can place a dog in to bring out noise on line, or any other expressions of desire that violate acceptable bounds of training. Having exposed/expressed any such behavior we can more effectively deal with it.

Specific to noise, whether on line or during the retrieve, there is a treatment I’ve been using and teach for years with consistent success, and with a wide range of dogs. That’s because it’s founded in terms that dogs can understand and relate to. Dogs do these things because they’re good dogs. They’re the birdy, eager dogs we hoped they would be, and we now need to convey that compliance with a strong “Sit” standard is both necessary and rewarding. It’s intent is to convey to the dog that every retrieve for the rest of its life will be earned through silence.

When training your dog, your whistle should be in your mouth, transmitter in hand, along with your heeling stick, and you should be prepared to react instantly to violations of the “Sit” standard as follows. Whenever the dog vocalizes in a retrieving environment, the following should happen in close succession:

1.	Stick the dog, saying, “Sit”, then…
2.	Say, “Quiet” while grabbing the muzzle firmly, but not hard
3.	If this occurred while a mark was being thrown, have your gunner pick it up to re-throw it
4.	Treat each infraction this way with absolute consistency

NOTE: This is not the outright denial some trainers advocate, returning the dog to the crate as punishment for the noise. This sort of treatment is only partially effective, and makes some dogs worse. We’re working to change our dog’s expectations on line, and outright denial, followed by putting them away breaks the focus on that.

Sometimes a bright, but noisy dog will figure out that if they’re quiet on line you’ll send them, and then they vocalize en route to the fall. Many trainers feel apprehensive about stopping the dog en route for a correction, so they accept this behavior. It quickly becomes chronic, and the dog yips all the way to its falls; marks and even blinds.

Stopping them is exactly what needs to happen. Stop them, enforcing “Sit” in the usual fashion; “Toot” – nick – “Toot”, but then walk out to them and grab the muzzle saying, “Quiet”. Then take the dog back to the line, having the gunner pick up the mark. Then have it re-thrown, and stay with this until the dog is rewarded with a mark for complete silence. 

If you are consistent your dog will react fairly quickly, and become reliably quiet over the long haul. This premise has other line manner applications, as all infractions of this type are related.

Evan


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks, Evan. Kooly is quite familiar with the "muzzle/quiet" approach, but I have not used it in this context at the line. This definitely provides a clearer picture of what is expected. 

We did some work early this morning adding the "muzzle/quiet" factor. Zero tolerance on a short, winger, "big splash" water mark, with shooting, a holding blind and duck calling. He spent a lot of time in the holding blind....alone out and back. It took 15 marks before a faint "light at the end of the tunnel" showed up. He did watch another dog pick up every one of those marks before going back into the holding blind. Daisy was getting ready to grab Kooly by the throat and say, "For crying out loud, how many of these am I going to have to pick up before you get the message!!??" 

I should emphasize the backward heeling has been the key because it creates more anxiety with Kooly. Therefore, I now have plenty of opportunities to "explain" the standard. 

Later, I went over to my pro's place where he had planned to run a few singles with his younger dogs. Kooly was sat off to the side....loose and by himself to watch. After awhile, he layed down and rolled on the ground without intently staring at each mark. When I finally ran him......no movement (not even a paw) or vocalization (not even a whimper). He has not done that for a long time. These were not "in your face" singles, but it was still very cool! 

I ran this all by my pro friend (again). In our conversation, the phrase "He never does this in training before.....so there was nothing to correct" came up. His comment was that lame excuse is used all the time. "If he isn't doing it in training........you weren't trying hard enough." Bingo, that made a whole lot of sense to me.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

*Rex Carr*

I have an obscure casette of Rex at Ft. Collins RC addressing this issue.He indicates to correct for SIT until the beast is sitting still,quiet,and a little gentlemen....then send.....I have used this on a bunch,and it works.He told the questioner that " before the sun goes down ....I will have a little gentlemen on my hands" I know with gunning and HT dogs,we have so many "acid " type honors that I really dont think the dog cares that much about denying a retrieve and going to the box.Kenneled dogs seem to learn that "quiet" is something were always yelling to a bunch of yapping dogs that quiet for two seconds then start back up.So what Evan and Rex are doing is bringing it back to the first thing they learn,and thats sit.Same exact recipe for creeping.Good luck.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jay,

It's been a very long time since I heard those audio tapes, but I do remember he demo'd Ray Bly with "Torrey" on Heel & Sit. Did he tell the story about Snake-eyes being vocal on those tapes, and how he had Delma deal with it?

Thanks,

Evan


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

*Yea....*

Yes thats the one.I believe it Ft. Collins 1972.I stupidly lent the tapes to a fellow and he returned just the second one....lost the first one :evil: I wish I could replace it but wouldnt know where to start.I found that much more interesting than the video that came out many years later.I like the training tapes where THE MAN runs the dogs....not clients.I know how to do it wrong.Lardy and Danny's are fine although it was cool seeing Rex in action!!!!


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