# AKC or UKC



## Jay Dangers (Feb 19, 2008)

What's everyone's opinion on the two? Would you buy a pup that's parents had no AKC titles, only UKC titles?


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

Break out the popcorn.

Irishwhistler


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Depends on price. Depends on your purpose for the dog. Oh you asked for my opinion. I have no knowledge of ukc so an opinion from me is useless. Often my wife says just that.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Irishwhistler said:


> Break out the popcorn.
> 
> Irishwhistler


Yes this could be interesting!


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Jay Dangers said:


> What's everyone's opinion on the two? Would you buy a pup that's parents had no AKC titles, only UKC titles?



Depends on the dogs in question, not on the affiliation of the registries. If the pups are registered with both and they are of the pedigree, health, temperament, looks, etc…that you want and are looking for, then why not?


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## Jay Dangers (Feb 19, 2008)

jacduck said:


> Depends on price. Depends on your purpose for the dog. Oh you asked for my opinion. I have no knowledge of ukc so an opinion from me is useless. Often my wife says just that.


Say the price for the pups with UKC titled parents is the same as AKC titled parents. 

Would you agree that the UKC titles are equivalent to AKC?


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

I would not pay the same if I wanted to play dog games, just a hunting dog destined for a great pet life and not to be bred is another story.

Why?
An akc reg dog can be dual registered ukc. 
Ukc cannot be register afterwards with akc without akc papers.
It limits the games you can play.... 

So if I wanted to play dog games and think about breeding down the road I would want at least the akc papers.

Unless you spay or neuter... Then you can get papers with akc and play both games...


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Titles are not equal to me.

Sure you can have GRHRCH or MH but wouldn't a GRHRCH MH QAA be even better?


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## Jay Dangers (Feb 19, 2008)

the parents are AKC registered, just no AKC hunt titles, lots of AFC's and FC's in the pedigree, only titles are UKC.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Ohhhh I misread. My bad.

I personally have money down on a really nice (I think) chocolate puppy. Lots of AFC FC MH in the pedigree... However the parents only have UKC titles. I did my research and IMHO the dogs only have ukc titles because that's all they ran in. Not that they can't do other things, they just haven't gotten there yet. This pup should be just what I'm looking for...

That being said this pup is about $1000 less than the NAFC AFC FC x HRCH UH MH QAA pup I just lost. Was that pup better? Only time will tell I guess.


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## Jay Dangers (Feb 19, 2008)

Marissa,
Do you feel the ukc titles are the same as akc? I have seen akc test, and done ukc test. I feel the ukc test are more realistic.


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## deanlabs1 (Apr 7, 2008)

yes I have several ukc titled sire and dam to my dogs I also have many akc titled sire and dam to my dogs. Some people run only akc or ukc not both. I wouldn't discount a pup just because the parents have only ukc title and not akc title. I have ran lots of akc and ukc hunt test and a title is a title to me.. I would buy a pup with parents having a ukc title and have several times


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

I think it depends on the judges setting the test up.
But I think often times they are very close.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Jay Dangers said:


> What's everyone's opinion on the two? Would you buy a *pup* that's parents had no AKC titles, only UKC titles?


i would, especially if i was buying a **** dog or a beagle!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Jay Dangers said:


> Marissa,
> Do you feel the ukc titles are the same as akc? I have seen akc test, and done ukc test. I feel the ukc test are more realistic.


And the akc takes more dog skill. Which is better?

/Paul


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

I think either an upper level UKC or AKC hunt test title shows the dog has desire and Willingness to do the work. That's what I like.

Now Field Trial titles are another ball game of course.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

roseberry said:


> i would, especially if i was buying a **** dog or a beagle!


So true with the beagles. 
Some FC beagles are a pity to watch hunt. 
My young pup is 13" FTCh x HBCH and she can be a little rough but jumps and runs a rabbit good under the gun.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Nope, like HRC a lot, but to the general public the AKC titles carry more weight. AKC tougher 3 series vs 2 are the reason in my opinion.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

Fortunately, all of our dogs have both UKC, AKC, and Parent Club Working Certificate titles. Therefore, our puppy buyers do not have that dilemma.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Popcorn sucks....


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

As always, it depends on the individual dogs and their pedigrees.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

Somehow I boo boo'd here. I meant to reply with Matt's quote about the individual dog and pedigree.


A few years back I considered buying a pup out of an FC/AFC x JH breeding. The breeding was amazing on paper. I went and had a look at the JH female work. She was a crazy nice bitch that was quite capable of completing both HRCH and MH titles. Having trained and handled several HRCH/MHs myself, I can say that this bitch was actually as nice as any MH or HRC dog I'd ever seen. Now, from what I saw sold me on a pup from the breeding. The fact that the bitch was only JH initially turned me off until I saw her work. My point is, MH or HRCH are both indicators that the bitch has not only marking/memory skills, but also willing to be trained and handled as a team player.
Irony to my story: I didn't buy the pup due to the fact that a friend gave me a pup out of an FC/AFC/CAFC-Copper x JH breeding. The pup had a nice pedigree as well. She is now my personal gun dog and quickly earned her SH before I bowed out of the hunt test game. She is a fantastic player and I'm very fortunate to stand by her side. I hope to get back to running hunt tests and run some HRC events because I think that they are tons of fun!!! Same reasons some folks only title their dogs with UKC titles. On the other hand, my last 4 dogs have only AKC titles due to availability of tests. 
I do agree with the posts that mention that they believe the MH/AKC titles may carry more clout in the puppy market though.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Are you buying titles or are you buying a dog? If you like the parents and the pedigree and the pups can be registered in both AKC and UKC, what difference does it make how their owners choose to spend their weekends?


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

thank you Sharon... words of wisdom. Want to say more but I'm not going to give anyone an excuse to make popcorn. I think the whole retriever community needs to get past the title snobs and start paying more attention to the dogs themselves. Oh nuts....


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Cough ... I choked on my popcorn, where is my beer!

When is this going to get good. Danger is wondering, which is better AKC or UKC.

Did Gooser fall off a log ... hmmm

/Paul you tried!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Tried what? If your investing in a Dog, your best bet outside of health is performance. AKC is designed to test a dogs skills at a higher degree than HRC. Not a knock on the hrc game, just a simple fact

/Paul


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> Are you buying titles or are you buying a dog?


i would like to buy a title! how much do they cost?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Titles can help, but they don't always tell the whole story. And the whole idea of which game is better has no bearing on the talent of a pup. Far too many variables to base a judgement on venue. Just because a dog has only titled in one venue doesn't mean it lacks the talent to title in another. As a breeder, I place far more value on the individual dog than I do in just titles. I've seen dogs with an MH behind their name that I wouldn't own, and I've seen dogs with an HRCH in front that I wouldn't own, and I've seen dogs with no titles at all that I'd love to own...and visa versa. Look at the dogs, not the venue. As for titles in one venue adding more value to pups than another: the only titles that would make me pay a higher price for a pup are FC or AFC, and either one of those with an N in front would be especially nice.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

It's not about which game is better Sharon, it's about what game better demonstrates a dogs abilities. If you don't see them work you can't evaluate them. Whenever looking for a new pup, best to up your odds based on what the parents have done. Fact is there is no way of knowing how the pups will turn out, all you can do is better the chances

/Paul


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

If you take a dog from the pound and title it ,does that make the breeding any better?


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

How can a topic with so much intertainment potential turn out to be so boring?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

polmaise said:


> If you take a dog from the pound and title it ,does that make the breeding any better?


A blind pig finds an acorn everyonce in while . However if you want to increase your odds of best performance you have to see how the line as performed. It's been the basis of performance breeding for decades. 

/Paul


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

polmaise said:


> If you take a dog from the pound and title it ,does that make the breeding any better?


yes it does.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

roseberry said:


> yes it does.


Best get down the pound then?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

/Paul, would you kindly share your thoughts on why AKC better demonstrates a dog's ability?


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

What is UKC? Unidentifiable Kennel Club?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> /Paul, would you kindly share your thoughts on why AKC better demonstrates a dog's ability?


I've posted that a few times before

/Paul


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Marissa E. said:


> Titles are not equal to me.
> 
> Sure you can have GRHRCH or MH but wouldn't a GRHRCH MH QAA be even better?


Or maybe a GRHRCH MNH QAA BRED TO A GRHRCH MNH QAA ;-)


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Hunt test tiles prove a dog can perform to a certain standard. This is good to know when shopping for a puppy. Weather you will run HT or not it is nice to know that the parents of your puppy were able to accomplish whatever title they hold. Weather it's AKC or UKC it shows that they are somewhat intelligent and trainable and have some inherited talent. Not all MH's or HRCH's are created equal, some gain their title with a 100% pass rate some with a much lower pass rate. But they have all shown they can get it done. 

As far as AKC vs UKC that's not worth arguing about.

Your best bet is to find a very knowledgeable breeder, one who has a lot of experience in all aspects of your interest. I feel the breeder that trains dogs and hunts dogs and campaigns dogs in HT's and FT's has a better perspective when it comes to what you are looking for in a dog. All you need to do is be honest when you tell the breeder EXACTLY what you are looking for and than trust him or her when they suggest the right breeding for you. This is just my opinion. There are some GREAT breeders out there that don't do all the things I mentioned, but I feel the things I mentioned give a little bit bigger knowledge base when it comes to knowing exactly what his or her dogs can or can not do. That is the stuff you as a puppy buyer really need to know because it will help you get the right dog for your intended use.

With all that being said I personally like to see a lot of titled dogs in a pedigree. To me it speaks to the talent, intelligence and trainability of the pups ancestors. I believe these are inherited traits. Also the more titles you see the more health info you can find. All titled dogs are registered and typically most have had heath clearance's done which leaves a trail of info. This is also of great importance to you as a puppy buyer.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

TIM DOANE said:


> Hunt test tiles prove a dog can perform to a certain standard. This is good to know when shopping for a puppy. Weather you will run HT or not it is nice to know that the parents of your puppy were able to accomplish whatever title they hold. Weather it's AKC or UKC it shows that they are somewhat intelligent and trainable and have some inherited talent. Not all MH's or HRCH's are created equal, some gain their title with a 100% pass rate some with a much lower pass rate. But they have all shown they can get it done.
> 
> *As far as AKC vs UKC that's not worth arguing about.*
> 
> ...


This comment says alot!! The statement *it is not worth arguing about or which is better* is very true. Depends on you what you want you and your dog to do is the important thing!. Mind you you may find your dog better suited to AKC or HRC. That can depend on your training opportunities etc. It is best to have the dog's parents and relatives with titles - always helps. As for the pooch from the pound that is even more of a gamble. But if that is what you want go for it!!!JMO


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Marissa E. said:


> .
> Ukc cannot be register afterwards with akc without akc papers.
> 
> 
> Unless you spay or neuter... Then you can get papers with akc and play both games...


This is not true you can indeed get full AKC papers on a UKC register pup out of only UKC registered parents, you just need to prove an unbroken line back to AKC registered dogs. For some breeds hounds etc. you need to prove an unbroken line back to UKC dogs, as they orginaly kept those breed records. The UKC and AKC registries actually get along pretty well, they're both interested in preserving a pure-bred dog. I have friends that have gotten full AKC registration on their UKC registered dogs, in order to run AKC events, I have another friend that has filled out the paperwork and done the research for others. However most UKC litters are dual registered already so in most cases it does not matter.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> This is not true you can indeed get full AKC papers on a UKC register pup out of only UKC registered parents, you just need to prove an unbroken line back to AKC registered dogs. For some breeds hounds etc. you need to prove an unbroken line back to UKC dogs, as they orginaly kept those breed records. The UKC and AKC registries actually get along pretty well, they're both interested in preserving a pure-bred dog. I have friends that have gotten full AKC registration on their UKC registered dogs, in order to run AKC events, I have another friend that has filled out the paperwork and done the research for others. However most UKC litters are dual registered already so in most cases it does not matter.


I had no idea, thanks!
You just have to hope all the dogs trace back to AKC then I guess. Probably very likely in labradors, hounds I think could get trickier.... But that's beside the point.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

As a comment to the OP, It's a dog that will lay on your couch and that you'll be spending 10+ yrs. of your life with. Not papers, pedigrees nor titles. There are several pups I would get in bidding wars to purchase out of breedings from completely untitled parents, verses some others I would not take out of breedings and dogs with the highest qualifications. It's important to know what you want, and find parents that throw those traits to their offspring. I prefer to brag on what a dog can actually do with me verses what his parents might've done for someone else.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> As a comment to the OP, It's a dog that will lay on your couch and that you'll be spending 10+ yrs. of your life with. Not papers, pedigrees nor titles. There are several pups I would get in bidding wars to purchase out of breedings from completely untitled parents, verses some others I would not take out of breedings and dogs with the highest qualifications. It's important to know what you want, and find parents that throw those traits to their offspring. I prefer to brag on what a dog can actually do with me verses what his parents might've done for someone else.


I think the OP was talking about picking a pup from a litter, not buying a trained dog that has proven itself. What you speak of in my opinion is the exception not the rule. I too have seen and trained dogs that look like nothing on paper that I would never consider buying as a pup that look awesome as a 2 year old trained dog but not very often. I too have seen and trained dogs that look great on paper that never amounted to much. I train a lot of gun dogs and folks bring me a lot of $200.00 puppy's and once in awhile they get lucky. Most times not. I also get well bred dogs and most times we have very nice dogs as a result. Everyone loves the "beating the odds story" but myself when it comes to picking a puppy "that you'll be spending 10+ years with" I would rather play the odds.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

TIM DOANE said:


> I think the OP was talking about picking a pup from a litter, not buying a trained dog that has proven itself. What you speak of in my opinion is the exception not the rule. I too have seen and trained dogs that look like nothing on paper that I would never consider buying as a pup that look awesome as a 2 year old trained dog but not very often. I too have seen and trained dogs that look great on paper that never amounted to much. I train a lot of gun dogs and folks bring me a lot of $200.00 puppy's and once in awhile they get lucky. Most times not. I also get well bred dogs and most times we have very nice dogs as a result. Everyone loves the "beating the odds story" but myself when it comes to picking a puppy "that you'll be spending 10+ years with" I would rather play the odds.


 I agree Tim. There is a considerable investment being made both from a money standpoint and emotional standpoint. Go into giving yourself the best opportunity

/Paul


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## FieldLab (Aug 5, 2011)

Great post


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Welp since only my first dog was from untitled parents, who I bred to get my next dog and who I will eventually breed to get my next dog, etc. And I enjoy putting those titles AKC & UKC on my dogs. I can't argue against getting a pup out of titled parents Not that I wouldn't cross in a excellent non-titled meat dog I was very familiar with, or an untitled sibling of a superior female with lines I'd like to cross in, but that's breeder speak. For a newbie just starting out unfamiliar with the performance or hunting world, who doesn't have a list of dogs (performance or meat) they'd love to have a pup out of. It's much safer to buy out of dogs, with higher titles, whether AKC or UKC, both show the skill set. Still it is important to note that dogs are individuals and just because they have high titles doesn't mean that particular dog or pups of those dogs are your style. You need to know the parents, particularly the female to know they are what you want.

Now We might as well have a bit of popcorn, as this thread has been so civilized .

An HRCH skill set is superior to an AKC JH or SH, it's on par with a MH. Anyone one discounting either the MH or HRCH title hasn't ran enough of either event. Individual judges determine hard verse not, there are hard AKC judges and hard UKC judges, often times they are the same judge . It only takes one bird in one series to fail a dog. 2 verse 3 series, goes both ways, 3 series could be agrued to show more consistency but you can also make up points in the 3rd, when a the same dog would be out with only 2. The GRHRCH is a rare title, particularly for an amateur handler. I don't know of a single handler who has actually ran the event that would discount a grand pass nor a GRHRCH title. Anyone who'd compare the grand to the Master National hasn't ran both events. This is not discounting a MNH, nor saying the grand is harder in setup, technics etc. The events are not a skill-set difference, the grand has a harder grading scale, there is very little grey area and thus mathematically harder to pass. IMO The truly finished & all around dogs, swap hunt test venues easily, others have a harder time with it. I've seen many a MHs go a bit crazy & noisy with a real gun, and miss birds with no calls, hidden stations etc. I've seen solid HRCH's break on loud station calls & live-flyers, and be loose on MH blinds.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

I am sincerely disappointed. It has been 5 days since this originated and only 5 pages. Do the averages that is one page a day and with a topic this important it should have gone over the top.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Welp since only my first dog was from untitled parents, who I bred to get my next dog and who I will eventually breed to get my next dog, etc.
> 
> So you have bred one dog and trained 2?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well to each his own opinion. If I had a choice, I'd go for the harder venue with longer marks, more series, real birds and less judging of the handler. You choose which venue does that...

/Paul


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well to each his own opinion. If I had a choice, I'd go for the harder venue with longer marks, more series, real birds and less judging of the handler. You choose which venue does that...
> 
> /Paul



 I had no idea that we were killing a bunch of fake ducks to use! 

And are longer (slightly) marks really harder when there's a shot from that spot to attract a dog's attention, as opposed to the dog having to swing with the gun (real, not plywood) and look for the actual bird, with no noise from the field like in a real world hunting situation?

Why three series for a hunt test? A good, hunting, judge who understands bird placement and the variables that go into a day's hunt should certainly be able to get the answers they need in two well planned and active series in a hunt test situation. Does three series make it harder or just longer? Wouldn't four be even better? It's a hunt test, not a field trial.

Again, to each their own. Too many variables in judges, part of the country, etc. to say one is better/easier/harder. It makes more sense to say XYZ is one's "favorite" venue.


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## Golden Boy (Apr 3, 2009)

Yes, depending on what I wanted to do with the dog. If I only wanted a strong hunting, hunt test and family dog sure I'd buy a dog with only UKC titles. But the titles would have to be more than a started title. If I wanted a trial dog I'd buy a pup only from an FC, AFC breeding unless I saw the parents work in the field and I could judge thier marking and style. Then I may buy a pup with nothing in the pedigree.
I am always leary of Hunt Test titled dogs. Because at the end of the day it's a test and how many tests did the dog run to get the title. How well does the dog mark ect?? There's a lot of variables when I'm looking for a pup that aren't answered in HT titles. But that's just me.....


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## JDunken77 (Jan 3, 2014)

*Javan's Pet Transportation*

If they do not have AKC or any type of registration
Any time would be Good Because it doesn't matter what time of year
Unless the person can get you the papers

You can still buy the dog and if they can get papers you can talk the price.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> I had no idea that we were killing a bunch of fake ducks to use!
> 
> And are longer (slightly) marks really harder when there's a shot from that spot to attract a dog's attention, as opposed to the dog having to swing with the gun (real, not plywood) and look for the actual bird, with no noise from the field like in a real world hunting situation?
> 
> ...


 you hopefully understand what effect flyers have on a dog. 3series in a test show more trainabilty and control. A shot in the field makes the dog do the work, vs the dog learning to heal (the infamous swing with the gun statement). Not sure how a real gun demonstrates a better skill in the dog, oh wait it doesn't. That's the part of hrc focused on the handler not the dog. I've trained dogs too long, played both games, and judged for 10 years. I can debate this all day.

/Paul


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

It all boils down to Buckets.

If you like bucket sitting HRC is your game.

If you like standing, go AKC.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

/Paul, I'm really trying to entertain Frank....he was a bit disappointed as I recall. 

Of course I understand live flyers and their effect....wish we had 'em in HRC, but we don't. 

How about the effect of the gun fire coming from the line, beside the dog? All that activity can mess with a dog, too...especially the ones that don't hunt.

If three series is better, why not four? or five? I can promise you that I can set up two solid hunt test series, within the rules, that will provide an opportunity to see all the trainability and control anyone should need to see in order to judge a dog's competence. 

A shot in the field to draw the dog's attention is still human assistance to get the dog to look. Most dogs learn to identify the winger stations from the line anyway, in both venues. And it's not the way most people hunt, at least around here. Teamwork should be a part of the equation, since that's the way most people I know hunt.


(hoping Frank will check back in and see if we're providing enough entertainment)


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Dave Plesko said:


> It all boils down to Buckets.
> 
> If you like bucket sitting HRC is your game.
> 
> If you like standing, go AKC.


I had to sit on a bucket in a akc test last year. I feel cheated...lol

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> /Paul, I'm really trying to entertain Frank....he was a bit disappointed as I recall.
> 
> Of course I understand live flyers and their effect....wish we had 'em in HRC, but we don't.
> 
> ...


Well I don't know where Frank went, he's not holding up his part of the entertainment much in this thread. Gunfire at the line isn't that much of a deal when you can talk to your dog....

/Paul


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

TIM DOANE said:


> Hunt'EmUp said:
> 
> 
> > So you have bred one dog and trained 2?
> ...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Damn guys...We are all dog people and we love what we are doing...Isn't that enough and enjoy what we are doing? We do this stuff because our heart is there and enjoy doing it. Isn't that enough? We can agree to disagree on certain subjects, but understand what we are doing and why we are doing.....We are all in the brotherhood.
Just saying.....


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