# Credibility for the Silver Labs: Breeders, here's your chance.



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I've been thinking about this a lot. And in fairness, I have some questions that can, at least in my eyes, lend some credibility to the silver/gray Lab concept. 

So, in the interest of proving that silver breeders really are concerned about producing more than just the gray color, I will give my respect to those who can do all of the following, most of which are standard practice for Lab breeders of any color:

1. Proof of the following current health clearances on your *current* breeding stock: Hips, elbows, CERF, PRA, CNM and EIC

2. Proof of at least hips, elbows and CERF on the *preceeding ONE generation/parents* of your current breeding stock

3. Hunt test titles in (pick any one of the three) AKC, UKC or NAHRA or field trial points on at least one dog you're currently using for breeding. Or give me another venue your dogs are titled in.

4. Proof that there is none of the following blood in any generation of your breeding stock: Crist Culo, Kellogg(the newer lines, not the nice older ones), or Beavercreek.


That will convince me, and my hat will be off to you as a responsible breeder. Looking forward to the responses.


----------



## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I think I hear crickets but I am right there with you sharon


----------



## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

If it is true that the AKC will not recognize the silver even though people market them as AKC silver labs then you are either asking an irrelevant question or you need to consider the standards for the organizations that do register them. In my quick google search it seems there is a proper name for these dogs as a Labmaraner or Weimador with the following registries:
ACHC (American Canine Hybrid Club)
DDKC (Designer Dogs Kennel Club)
DRA (Dog Registry of America)
IDCR (International Designer Canine Registry)
DBR (Designer Breed Registry)

Maybe you meant to say "AKC" Silver Labs but as I stated above, the AKC does not register silver labs. I would just like to know what the official name and registry is as I think this would be the best way to give a fact based opinion to someone when they ask, as I don't see the designer dog thing going away anytime soon.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

So, Sharon, should I read this to mean that people who breed confirmation labs aren't responsible breeders? No field title = irresponsible?


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Darrin, the reason I left out show titles is that the color is a disqualification and the silvers aren't allowed to show in AKC shows so those titles aren't relevant to my query. No disrespect to show folks intended.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The AKC allows them to be registered as chocolate, which many silver breeders do in order to lend credibility. But let's say they aren't registered with AKC and rather are with one of the fake registries listed in your post. The health clearances and pedigrees should still be in order, and they can compete in hunt tests in both AKC and UKC.





RetrieverNation said:


> If it is true that the AKC will not recognize the silver even though people market them as AKC silver labs then you are either asking an irrelevant question or you need to consider the standards for the organizations that do register them. In my quick google search it seems there is a proper name for these dogs as a Labmaraner or Weimador with the following registries:
> ACHC (American Canine Hybrid Club)
> DDKC (Designer Dogs Kennel Club)
> DRA (Dog Registry of America)
> ...


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Hadn't thought about the color disqualifying them Sharon, great point. I'm training one of these guys right now. Very large, terrible conformation and scared to the point of borderline aggression. Oh and cross eyed as well. We are going to straighten him out but it's a shame and I can't help but wonder if breeding for color only is what caused it.


----------



## Brian Daniels (May 21, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> I've been thinking about this a lot. And in fairness, I have some questions that can, at least in my eyes, lend some credibility to the silver/gray Lab concept.
> 
> So, in the interest of proving that silver breeders really are concerned about producing more than just the gray color, I will give my respect to those who can do all of the following, most of which are standard practice for Lab breeders of any color:
> 
> ...


Is it irresponsible for a person to breed two hunting dogs that do not run tests/trials?


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Cut em Shelby said:


> Is it irresponsible for a person to breed two hunting dogs that do not run tests/trials?


That's a good question, and thanks for bringing it up. In a serious breeding program, there needs to be some sort of concrete proof of trainability and talent besides "I said so". However, if there are titles in the pedigrees behind the two dogs, I have no problem with it.


----------



## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> I can't help but wonder if breeding for color only is what caused it.


That was what I was getting at with the thread I started about older silver labs. It seems bad gene's and poor breeding standards have dealt the silver variety strange health anomally's and a short life expectancy.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Cut em Shelby said:


> Is it irresponsible for a person to breed two hunting dogs that do not run tests/trials?


Not if they have health clearances on them, IMO, and they exhibit qualities desired.


----------



## DuckTruk (May 18, 2005)

What is the issue with Kellogg being in the lineage? Not pot-stirring, just curious as one of my dogs has a Kellogg mother (or grandmother). For the record my dogs are the recognized inferior color......Chocolate....HA


----------



## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Sharon Potter said:


> The AKC allows them to be registered as chocolate,......


 The AKC doesn't allow them to register them as Silver.

That's not the same thing as allowing them to register them as Chocolate.
The American Kennel Club is the Official Registry of the Labrador Retriever Club. Which is the Parent Club for the Labrador Retriever breed.

This is what the LRC says about Silver Labs. http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_detail_news.php?nid=3

So, as far as the AKC's failure to take action to prevent the practice of registering Silver as Chocolate? Well, it's kind of like don't ask don't tell.

Just because the practice isn't prosecuted, doesn't mean that it's allowed. It's not.


----------



## Andrew Fairchild (May 19, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> The AKC allows them to be registered as chocolate,


I got confused reading the other thread on this so I just figured I would clear it up for people that are slow like me..... When you have a liter of pups and your going to register the pups, the PERSON WHO HAS THE LITER filsl out the paperwork saying whether it is chocolate, yellow, or black. Their is no represenative from AKC that comes to your house and says yeah these pups are all chocolate or black or yellow. It's a trust system based on integrity basically. If you know America these days integrity is getting harder and harder to find. In the cases where people are selling you an AKC registered silver lab, most of the time they'll say it has to be registered as chocolate. Some will even go as far as saying silver will be a recognized color in 2 years just as a selling point. If you go through the paperwork akc gives you to register a dog it asks specifics like that color or your dog, does it have any miscolored spots, and if I remember right it asks you the eye and nose color( Don't hold me against that)! Just figured I would clear things up for the slower folks and Arkansans'.


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Andrew Fairchild said:


> If you go through the paperwork akc gives you to register a dog it asks specifics like that color or your dog, does it have any miscolored spots, and if I remember right it asks you the eye and nose color( Don't hold me against that)! Just figured I would clear things up for the slower folks and Arkansans'.


UH? not on any papers that I remember


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Just for fun I looked up three "silver" dogs, they are advertised as such. One even has had a litter with the ad stating OFA and EIC...false advertising as far as I can tell.

Of the three, one has good hips, and his sire has good hips, other wise the pedigree is very incomplete. 
No results for CNM.
Can't really look up EIC results.
No CERF results.

I used registration numbers and full names and various parts of the name to ensure a full search.

Then I looked at the top searches for silver labs/retrievers - looked at the litter advertisements, looked up health clearances - I gave up....


----------



## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Just the thought that people are able to register these dogs makes me want to throw up


----------



## Jen Marenich (Jan 20, 2013)

The earlier post on silver labs got me curious. I'll admit I did a search for silver lab breeders, to see if I could find any out there with any health clearances. I looked at the first 6 that were listed. One of the six claimed to have EIC and CNM clear dogs. I did not try to verify. No other health clearances of any sort, or on any of the other sites. I gave up.


----------



## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

It doesn't matter if it's a dog or a horse: a lab, a poodle, or a Quarter Horse... if I were purchasing one and the breeder told me "we're filling out the papers on this silver animal and calling it chocolate because..... (insert x, y, or z explanation here)" I drop it like a hot potato. It's patently untrue. What makes people think this is the least bit ethical?!


----------



## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Found this on breeders website. What caught my attention was that not only are they registered as chocolate but also BLACK!

"Lighting plays a big factor on how the color is seen. Artificial lighting for a dilute lab of silver makes them look light sledge or mousy brown, and a charcoal lab will look a very smokey black. For this reason, The AKC back in 1987 after very extensive parental lineage dna research came to the conclusion that there was no reason what so ever to doubt that Dilute labs are indeed purebred Labrador Retrievers but because of the breed standard color guidelines set forth, they fall into the range of color variations thus have no need for their own color placement in AKC. Dilute Charcoal labs are registered as black and Dilute Silver labs are registered as Chocolate."


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

But people want things that are different.....


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Most of the websites that sell silvers and other "off" colors are flashy (I mean literally FLASHY as in there are strobing typefaces, streaming headlines, obnoxious music, etc..) yet they can't/don't have pedigrees, clearances, heck-most only list the dog's call names making researching the dogs' backgrounds highly improbable if not impossible. 


Most of the websites also seem to be cut/pasted from one or two more prominent silver breeders' websites. Including the stud dogs in many instances!


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

While I appreciate all the sentiments, would it be possible to make complaints on the other threads? I had hoped to give the silver breeders a place here where they could proudly display the quality and health clearances of their dogs, and I don't want them to get jumped on in this thread (unless, of course, they aren't being responsible breeders).  Thanks!


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The Kellogg breeding behind the silvers was, in essence, a multi-bred puppy mill that had both Weims and Labs, and there were some crossbred dogs.


----------



## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Kellogg back in the day produced some very nice dogs. Things changed once the old man let the kids take over.


----------



## Andrew Fairchild (May 19, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> UH? not on any papers that I remember


The paperwork I filled out 12 months ago for Spooks AKC registration asked me his color and if he had any spots.


----------



## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Sharon, here is what is wrong with your credibility challenge, which also addresses some other comments made. 
The breeders who are doing these clearances typically do not have many "silver" Labs. Most if their Labs are BYC but carry the dilute gene in a homozygous recessive state. These are the breeders who know that is it plain stupid to keep inbreeding the already inbred silver lines. These are the breeders who are trying their darnedest to breed to the best lines they possibly can to expand the gene pool and eliminate any possible affects of historic inbreeding. They are the breeders who invest way more than they could ever hope to make. They are doing it because the love Labradors and they love their Labradors and want them to be every bit as good as any Labrador regardless of color. Because of the vicious hatred, as is again being displayed here over the last few days, these breeders rarely will provide full internet access to the names of their dogs, or even certifications that give that away. If they are "labeled," as many would like to do, as horrid unethical puppy mill'ers they would have a difficult time breeding a better Lab, and the dogs suffer yet again. It used to be easier to get that info until last year.
In the Last year, due to a "Silver" winning the Potomac Obedience trial and the witch hunt that the show community went on afterward, many silver breeders have moved to protect their Labs and their efforts to continue to improve by keeping their dog's identities private. That said, they are providing that info to committed puppy buyers, or should be (again, people should not buy from a breeder that will not prove their certifications, titles, etc). 

The demand for a pedigree without the three kennels mentioned is again a hard sell, obviously due to the reasons just stated, but more so that those other silver lines that are unrelated to those kennels are not going to be divulged because then they are labeled and the ability breed top lines to them is significantly reduced. It may mean nothing to you, but some of these unknown silver lines are now being shown in AKC for conformation titles, two that I am aware of have already earned their CH; their are probably others. The last thing these breeders want is for their Labs to be ridiculed and derided for carrying the dilute gene when they are obviously in standard, and certainly they can do with out the personal attacks and vitriol of the self-righteous breed police. Folks can rest easier here, there are not very many silver breeders who are breeding heavily into the FC lines yet, there are a few, but not nearly as many as are accessing the conformation lines. 
I would also add that it has NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE, IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM been proven that Culo bred or ever owned weims. Same is true for Beavercreek. If you are going to require that a pedigree go without these silver kennel names, you had better be willing to actually prove they are crossed with weims. 

Including Kellogg is unwise. I would bet that 90+% of the Labs here on RTF have Kellogg behind them somewhere. That is one of the longest existing field Labrador Kennels in the US. The claim that some breeder once saw Kellogg with weims and all kinds of dogs jumping fences, and a purported advertizement in Gundog mag for blue or gray Labrador from Kellogg have been exposed as an outright lie (which interestingly RTF played a part in exposing a few years back). You bet most silver lines have Kellogg behind them, big deal, they all have other well known and more closely related lines too, Lockerbie, Sandylands, etc. One that you see commonly that recently caught my interest here on RTF is Wanapum. The supposed cross breeding that is said to be attributed to Kellogg, would have been during the peak of Mayo's time. So...I guess I am saying be careful, you are accusing one of the more prominent Labrador breeders, in Mayo Kellogg, of being responsible for crossing Labs with weims. I'm sure he'd have some fair words to say to you about that were he alive today. A few years after Mayo died, Hugh apparently bought a Culo line Lab but it was later sold from what I've learned.

Not to deride your credibility challenge, but you know as well as anyone that the great majority of Labrador breeders in this country can't meet all of what you list in 1, 2, & 3, if any of it. I'm sure many here on RTF can, but again, I would suspect that it is a great minority of the 15,000+ RTF members, probably a good minority of the nearly 3000 active members. Chances are you have only a half-dozen or so silver breeder that are even on RTF, of those, maybe half are following this thread. Your challenge, as formulated and presented, is quite safe to prove your preconceived point.

I think people like Robert have real guts to be so bold here on RTF. Instead of ridiculing him and others, why not recognize that they are here to learn and better their Labs and themselves. Why not help them with friendliness and encouragement instead of meanness and provocation. The retriever community of RTF has proven many times that it is better than to wallow in the quagmire (though we have our days). I've seen people here do amazing things for perfect strangers, even those that may not totally agree with in some ways (dogs and otherwise). It is discouraging to see people here rabidly lambasting perfect strangers and calling for a lynch mob as was "jokingly" suggested in the other thread. 
Rise Up!


----------



## Dixiedog78 (Jul 9, 2009)

Did a Google search for "silver Labs" and it came up with several sites, here is one of them......they don't even look like labs to me.....no thanks. Isn't the line "superior silver breeding" kind of ironic?

http://www.redrockranch.net/superiorsilverbreeding.htm


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Ironman, it's not a challenge. It's an opportunity for those who want to promote the gray Labs to show us they really mean to do more than make money off of an unusual color. 

If I were in the position of swimming upstream like silver breeders are, I would be shouting from the rooftops and bragging if I had CH show titles on them. And until those dogs are named, I cannot give it any credibility or believe it is true. If you prefer to PM me the names of those dogs, I will keep it private. 

As for the obedience win, it is unfortunate that anyone would challenge a dog's right to be there and compete, when the breed standard has no bearing on the dog's performance. The AKC allows dogs registered under the PAL/ILP program to compete in obedience, so I see no reason for any protests.

As for including Kellogg...I probably should have stated Kellogg dogs after the time he turned the kennel over to his kids. It is unfortunate that the good work he did was not carried forward by his heirs. If it will make you happy, I will amend this to only Culo bloodlines. Having lived near that kennel and seen many of the dogs that came from there and the extremely poor structure, coat problems and overall quality....the vast majority were unrecognizable as Labradors....there is no doubt in my mind that they were never bred to be good Labradors, and the basic health certifications or the breed standard never entered into the equation. Of course there is no proof available and no way to prove a crossbred....the guy is not foolish enough to leave any evidence, and I for one am unwilling to take him at his word, having had first-hand experience. While there is no proof of the crossbreeding available, there is also no proof it didn't happen. It does strike me as odd that breeders of regular colored Labradors are willing to admit the outside breeds crossed in over the years while the silver folks refuse. 

I also see lots of dogs being bred that could not get an OFA hip number due to dysplasia, have no standard clearances and don't intend to get any. Please, please please....post up the good info on the folks who are trying to do it right. So far, all I have seen are defensive postures and no information. I would love to be convinced otherwise, and will be the first to say I was wrong if I see concrete proof.


----------



## sdnordahl (Sep 1, 2012)

Dixiedog78 said:


> Did a Google search for "silver Labs" and it came up with several sites, here is one of them......they don't even look like labs to me.....no thanks. Isn't the line "superior silver breeding" kind of ironic?
> 
> http://www.redrockranch.net/superiorsilverbreeding.htm



Wow I see what you mean. If you look at there "silvers" there body style does not look like a lab. English or american/FT style. I'll stick to my HT/FT champ black labs.


----------



## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Dixiedog78 said:


> Did a Google search for "silver Labs" and it came up with several sites, here is one of them......they don't even look like labs to me.....no thanks. Isn't the line "superior silver breeding" kind of ironic?
> 
> http://www.redrockranch.net/superiorsilverbreeding.htm


They look like chessies with straight coats, I wonder if they smell bad too?

:twisted:


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Again, folks....if you want to criticize, do it on the other thread. This one is supposed to be for silver breeders to show off their responsible breeding programs. Thanks.


----------



## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

So, where are the silver breeders? I would think that this site is used primarily for exactly the opposite of what the silver breeders are in the business for. 

I have only seen one silver lab in person. It was last weekend and it had a cast on its leg. The owner said that it jumped off the bed and broke its toes.

Lonnie Spann


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Lonnie, I don't know. I had hoped they would take this chance to showcase their programs and prove that they breed just like the rest of us, but so far, they haven't stepped up. Refusing to post pedigrees makes no sense, as any good, responsible breeder is proud to show off their lines, and equally proud of having good healthy stock with the clearances to prove it. I was hoping this thread would prove all our concerns wrong...but the silence thus far is not promising.


----------



## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Sharon,

It appears that maybe the silver breeders frequent a site other than RTF, if they frequent any site at all. Not trying to sound negative or be critical of the silver breeders BUT from what I have read, and that hasn't been much, many, if not all, silver breeders seem to fit into the category of what many would label "back yard breeders". Maybe a reputable silver breeder will chime in and enlighten us.

Lonnie Spann


----------



## duckdawg27 (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm sorry but how could any breeding where you have to lie about the color of the pups in order to register them ever be considered "responsible breeding".....just sayin'.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I can understand why they wouldn't offer up their names, to have a CH, FC etc. that is known to carry a dilution gene would black ball you from a great many breedings, as many believe the Lab shouldn't carry the d gene at all and wouldn't want the chance of it contaminating their lines. A lot of trouble to borrow if you want to breed an excellent proven dog, who might have the misfortune of caring the d, even if you never wanted to produce a silver pup.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I can understand why they wouldn't offer up their names, to have a CH, FC etc. that is known to carry a dilution gene would black ball you from a great many breedings, as many believe the Lab shouldn't carry the d gene at all and wouldn't want the chance of it contaminating their lines. A lot of trouble to borrow if you want to breed an excellent proven dog, who might have the misfortune of caring the d, even if you never wanted to produce a silver pup.


The flip side of this is that no responsible dog owner should fail to disclose a disqualifying trait or lie through omission regarding their dog, and I would think that if those dogs are getting outside breedings, the trait will disclose itself and at that point ruin the owner's credibility. It's about honesty.


----------



## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Silence speaks volumes.


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I don't know anything about silver labs, their breeding or health or lack of health clearances. I've never been interested in a lab for it's color.

But, this little gal liked birds, retrieving and was a typical lab pup. I figured it wouldn't be any harder getting an MH on her than on most any pup out of field breedings. The owner wasn't interested in the dog games but she came out a couple of times to see what her pup would do. The pup retrieved, played with the other dogs, wasn't gun shy and was an altogether nice normal pup.


----------



## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

I do know of one Silver Breeder who seems to want to do the "right thing"....I believe they are doing some training for field work etc. They currently own 5 silvers. All of them are EIC/CNM clear. Two are too young for OFAs but the other three are two excellents and one good. I think the hiding of the pedigrees comes from the fact that so many of them are so inbred its disgusting. NONE of the pedigrees that I have seen have any "notable" dogs in them.


----------



## Takem_brewer (Jun 8, 2010)

I have noticed that majority of the silver breeders that claim to have health clearances, when looked up are non existent. I have seen MANY that say that have "good" or "excellent" hips, yet when I look up on OFA, they are not listed. EVERY singe one I have looked at that states they have CNM and EIC clearances, ALWAYS says clear by parentage which is most definitely a lie. A lot of silver lab breeders are also stating their dogs are clear by parentage for DM now too. I know very few labs have come down with DM, but it is not a test that is being promoted to labs yet (if ever), but apparently silver lab breeders are "testing" for it.  I shake my head everytime I see any of this.

www.vikingsilverlabs.com has a male (Sharky) who does have his hips checked, but he is dysplastic and they have an upcoming litter with him soon. I have seen quite a few silver labs and they are all ugly. I live in Iowa and silver labs are actually pretty popular here with people breeding them in nearly every city.


----------



## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

I think many people miss the point of this entire debate on silver labs. I'm sure there are many silver labs who are good dogs, can play in the field trial game, or pass Hunt Tests, or make fine gun dogs. To me, that's not the point. The point for me is primarily about the health of the dogs and the integrity of the breed. If in fact silver breeders are purposefully breeding for the dilution gene, and I believe they are, then that is not good for the breed overall. That's precisely why AKC discourages it. I also believe that it is far more than coincidence that these silver labs are prone to disease, dysplasia, and other health problems more than other labs of unquestionable breeding. 

While integrity and honesty are important in breeding, they aren't as important when there is solid PROOF of health clearances, titles, pedigrees, etc. 95% of these silver lab breeders don't offer PROOF of any of these benchmarks. I'm not saying that only field champions should be allowed to breed, or only Master Hunters. What I'm saying, is that I really don't need to "trust" the breeder when he shows me pedigrees, titles, and health clearances. 

But that brings me back to the main point about silver lab owners. They aren't purchasing "gun dogs" or "field dogs". The vast majority are purchasing "pets", so pedigrees, titles, and health clearances aren't near as important to them as it is to us. However, most of them do not realize how it's compromising the breed. I have to believe that if they did know it, the demand for silver labs would decrease.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I can understand why they wouldn't offer up their names, to have a CH, FC etc. that is known to carry a dilution gene would black ball you from a great many breedings, as many believe the Lab shouldn't carry the d gene at all and wouldn't want the chance of it contaminating their lines. A lot of trouble to borrow if you want to breed an excellent proven dog, who might have the misfortune of caring the d, even if you never wanted to produce a silver pup.


With the way that the conformation breeders (and rightly so!) as well as the FT and HT breeders want to keep the dilutes out of their lines, I can see why these breeders are "shunned". They don't want the silver breeders to use their lines and hard work as the selling point for their silvers (look at the above mentioned breeders of silvers and how they tout that their labs are "improved" by coming from CH lines). If the silver breeders want to improve their lines with titles, then they need to be putting those titles on their own dogs. 
I know of several show breeders that are fuming because they were duped into selling a pup that was then used to "improve" a silver line. Buyers can say whatever they like to try to buy a pup, and sometimes it works. 
With stud dogs taking most of the blame for any and all types of illness and genetic issues, think how a prominent stud owner would feel if a silver or silver factored dog came to the line with terrible conformation, type, and health issues, not to mention lack of ability (I am talking Junior HT scenario since lack of ability will not get you to the line in FT) and having the owner bragging about the dog coming from said prominent stud dog? Do you think that the gallery would be impressed with the stud owner? or the stud dog? It is the same with the show folks only more so since their dogs are judged so much on looks and their group is SO much more cliquey than the FT/HT group. 
Don't you think that the stud owner has the RIGHT to know if the dogs in the pedigree behind the bitch brought for breeding carry the dilute gene or are falsely reg. under chocolate or black?


----------



## Brian Daniels (May 21, 2011)

Found this on a website selling them. Apparently all colors are the same 



Silver Labrador Information These Diltue coat colors of Silver, Charcoal and Champagne are merely a different coat color shade, in appearance, than the traditional Standard coat colors, and they are relatively new to the public eye, but are still Labrador Retrievers, every step of the way, and in every aspect. They also DNA as follows------Charcoal/DNA as Black, Silver/DNA as Chcoloate, Champagne/DNA as Yellow. All Dilutes DNA 'dd' at the D locus, all non-Dilutes DNA either "Dd" or "DD' at the D locus (click on the various links below to learn more). They do not differ in health, temperament or intelligence from their yellow, black or chocolate littermates, parents, or great great great grandparents. Like all Labradors, these guys are eager to please their owners, are dedicated family members, are loyal and loving, and have natural retrieving instinct. They can be shown in many competitions, from agility to tracking, in obedience and field trials, and the ones that have been shown in these competitions, have done very well and sometimes do better than their yellow/black/chocolate relatives even. They lack nothing. Because of the great "Silver Labrador" controversy right now, it is not suggested that you show them in the conformation ring, at this point. Right now, they are considered, by the show breeders and judges to be a fault, because of the appearance of the coat, even though they are DNA proven to be of standard coat colors of chocolate, yellow and black. There are several breeders that are currently working on what is needed to get these dogs into the show ring and accepted by the judges, and this will be conformation. A few breeders have been doing much needed research on the Dilute gene in the Labrador Retriever, along with DNA testing and documenting, and because those tests show and prove that these Dilute Labs DNA color test as yellow, black or chocolate, it proves that they are indeed just shades of the standard coat colors, and we feel that it will only be a matter of time before you will see the leaders in the Dilute Labradors, and their breeders, heading for the show ring to hammer it out and lead the way to acceptance. It is very important that anyone that has the same goals of acceptance and showing, proceed in the right manner, and do as much research, collecting facts, and more important they need to be working on 'Improvement Breeding' with every litter produced, which is of the highest importance right now for the Dilute Labrador. We encourage all of you to join 'The Dilute Labrador Group', in order to build up the numbers we need in order to show that these dogs are here to stay.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Technically this is correct:


> These Diltue coat colors of Silver, Charcoal and Champagne are merely a different coat color shade, in appearance, than the traditional Standard coat colors, and they are relatively new to the public eye, but are still Labrador Retrievers, every step of the way, and in every aspect. They also DNA as follows------Charcoal/DNA as Black, Silver/DNA as Chcoloate, Champagne/DNA as Yellow. All Dilutes DNA 'dd' at the D locus, all non-Dilutes DNA either "Dd" or "DD' at the D locus


And remember, as long as the AKC is hemmorhaging money, you can bet they won't be leading any push not to register these dilute dogs. Whether the color becomes accepted, will be up to the parent club (the LRC) and they make it clear they do not and have no plans to recognize silver (can't remember if they include charcoal and champagne in that statement--I doubt champagne would be, because there are other genes involved that lighten/darken or change the shade of yellow.

The dilution gene simply modifies a coat color decided by another set of genes. The real argument, which will never be definitively answered, is whether the dilution gene existed hiding for many generations and was re-discovered and specifically bred for, or was fraudulently introduced by registering crossbred dogs as purebreds. There is at least one labratory that has a test out to determine if the dog carries the dilution gene, but it's doubtful any test now or in the near future would be able to tell where it came from. With all the tests now or soon to become available for genetic defects, will the haters all rush to test their breeding Labs just like they do for CNM, PRA & EIC, so they can brag they have no silver in their pedigrees? I think not...but who knows?


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Howard N said:


> I don't know anything about silver labs, their breeding or health or lack of health clearances. I've never been interested in a lab for it's color.
> 
> But, this little gal liked birds, retrieving and was a typical lab pup. I figured it wouldn't be any harder getting an MH on her than on most any pup out of field breedings. The owner wasn't interested in the dog games but she came out a couple of times to see what her pup would do. The pup retrieved, played with the other dogs, wasn't gun shy and was an altogether nice normal pup.


Hope you invited her back...


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Back when I was breeding Labs, I sold pups on full registration. And then I heard from a puppy buyer a few years after their purchase...they were very disappointed because they had bred her (she was chocolate) and she wouldn't produce silver. I told them of course she wouldn't. That was the deciding factor in my selling all pups on limited registration from then forward.


----------



## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

I think it really comes down to a trust question as far as posting or even PMing info for many silver breeders. They have all watched the attacks on some breeders that were more open about their lines and names over the last year. They really are more or less gun shy as it were about posting or sharing full info to anyone that is not a committed puppy buyer or trusted friend. Before last summer's witch hunt they were much more open about posting it online. Sure, there are some that just don't care and today you can find names, pedigree, etc on their Labs. Many of those are the same that you would not want a puppy from that are stereotypically labeled as the "evil" silver breeders is forum posts like some we've had here in the last few days. They have nothing to protect because they have nothing to lose due to scraping the bottom themselves. I would be the first to agree that the majority of Silver Lab breeders are still "back yard" color breeders. However, rather than ostracize, ridicule, and denigrate them and their Labradors, whenever I have the opportunity I encourage them to focus on breeding for more than color and to acquire BYC Labs to improve with. Sometime people actually listen and are later full of gratitude as they transform their their very perception of breeding and Labradors. This effort has even led to a few simply getting rid of all their d gene Labs and a refocus on BYC Labs. Every breeder starts somewhere, it may turn out to not be the best start that could have been had they better dogs and information. Encourage them to obtain those things or offer them yourself in a positive way. I guess you could call is catching files with honey instead of vinegar. Berating Silver Labradors and their breeders on online forums and groups wont do much to change any minds, if anything it does the opposite...the saying that there is no such thing as bad publicity comes to mind. 


Sharon Potter said:


> ...Please, please please....post up the good info on the folks who are trying to do it right. So far, all I have seen are defensive postures and no information. I would love to be convinced otherwise, and will be the first to say I was wrong if I see concrete proof.


This is where I would encourage anyone to start that wants to find Silver Labrador breeders that are at least trying to do something more than just breed color.
http://www.labradorcouncil.com/
http://www.silverlabforum.com/health.html


----------



## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Ironman said:


> I think it really comes down to a trust question as far as posting or even PMing info for many silver breeders. They have all watched the attacks on some breeders that were more open about their lines and names over the last year. They really are more or less gun shy as it were about posting or sharing full info to anyone that is not a committed puppy buyer or trusted friend. Before last summer's witch hunt they were much more open about posting it online. Sure, there are some that just don't care and today you can find names, pedigree, etc on their Labs. Many of those are the same that you would not want a puppy from that are stereotypically labeled as the "evil" silver breeders is forum posts like some we've had here in the last few days. They have nothing to protect because they have nothing to lose due to scraping the bottom themselves. I would be the first to agree that the majority of Silver Lab breeders are still "back yard" color breeders. However, rather than ostracize, ridicule, and denigrate them and their Labradors, whenever I have the opportunity I encourage them to focus on breeding for more than color and to acquire BYC Labs to improve with. Sometime people actually listen and are later full of gratitude as they transform their their very perception of breeding and Labradors. This effort has even led to a few simply getting rid of all their d gene Labs and a refocus on BYC Labs. Every breeder starts somewhere, it may turn out to not be the best start that could have been had they better dogs and information. Encourage them to obtain those things or offer them yourself in a positive way. I guess you could call is catching files with honey instead of vinegar. Berating Silver Labradors and their breeders on online forums and groups wont do much to change any minds, if anything it does the opposite...the saying that there is no such thing as bad publicity comes to mind.
> 
> This is where I would encourage anyone to start that wants to find Silver Labrador breeders that are at least trying to do something more than just breed color.
> http://www.labradorcouncil.com/
> http://www.silverlabforum.com/health.html


And how much patience and understanding should we have with those who put profits before the integrity of the breed itself? Not saying ALL silver breeders are that way, but I am saying that silver dogs are poorer dogs over all. Their health, the life expectancy, their ability in the field or show ring. They are simply found lacking. If not money, what other motivation would ANY responsible breeder have in breeding inferior dogs? Is there really any debate over whether or not they are inferior dogs IN GENERAL? Again, this isn't a blanket statement, it's an accurate generalization. Must just be the way I was raised....I don't have much tolerance for deliberate and willful acts of poor character.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

The sad thing is, the silver Lab breeders ignoring health clearances are just the tip of the iceburg of mountains of high volume, no-clearance garbage Lab breeders (as well as the designer mutt breeders) with the slick websites containing all kinds of disingenuous and outright false information. "Be sure and ask for clearances," we tell our friends, but how are they to know that a breeder claiming their dogs are "vet checked" isn't what we mean? And that having a bench champion 5 generations back is not exactly a "champion" pedigree? These people may be producing an inferior product but so many of them are superior at making their trash sound awfully good.  

After all, most of the people that frequent this forum are but a small minority who buy Labs. When someone looking for a pet Lab pup goes looking for information online, I doubt many start with the AKC and even fewer, with the LRC. No, they end up at the websites of the high volume, no clearance type breeders who are only too happy to answer any questions they may have with what they want to hear. Compound that with the successful PETA/HSUS campaigns that make anyone who wants a purebred feel guilty for even speaking to, much less patronizing a breeder, since anyone who breeds animals is regularly portrayed as the spawn of the devil.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

So what started the most recent silver discussions was the talking-sense-to-the-owner/buyer angle, and I still say, Let It Be.

But for those who want to talk to breeders... well, I guess that's nice... and so was I--once. My observations and brief but unfortunate experience is that all you do is give them the language to make their web sites and conversations with buyers more convincing. 

Unless you want to feel horrible seeing or hearing your responsible words parroted for someone's ad campaign, it's probably best to bite tongue...


----------



## Erin Lynes (Apr 6, 2008)

Ironman said:


> ...
> This is where I would encourage anyone to start that wants to find Silver Labrador breeders that are at least trying to do something more than just breed color.
> http://www.labradorcouncil.com/
> http://www.silverlabforum.com/health.html


I don't know about that. The chairman of the Labrador Council is a silver breeder who knowingly breeds dogs with elbow dysplasia, as referenced on their website (here's a quote): "while hips are rated "Excellent," "Good," "Fair," "Borderline," or different grades of dysplastic, elbows are rated only as "Normal" (Perfect), and then different grades of dysplastic. So although a few of our great quality dogs have sub-clinical dysplasias, no one actually shows any outward signs of dysplasia." 

Just because I am feeling snoopy, I just checked their website again and according to their newest 14 month old stud dog, "I have had my hips, elbows, heart, and eyes OFA'd" Not sure how recent this was but there is nothing to report on the OFA website. If this owner of this kennel is the chairman of the "Labrador Council" it certainly does make me question the ethics of anyone else who has joined the council. 

Sorry to muddy your thread Sharon, I just couldn't over look this one.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Erin, I hear you. And their silence on this thread is disappointing to say the least. When I went to the council page, the first thing I thought of was "gee, this looks a lot better than I expected". Until I got to the part where they defend Crist Culo. You see, while of course there is no available concrete evidence that there are Weims crossed...there is also an equal lack of evidence that there weren't. And I am unwilling to take his word for it, having met the man, because that's all the evidence he has and I don't trust it.


----------



## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Found this on one their websites:

"Please Note that due to Insurance Purposes and the high risk of spreading disease to our puppies we do not allow visits inside the kennel or kennel area. This is for the safety of our puppies."

Big ol' red flag....


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Does anyone else find something like this even more disturbing? Wonder what the difference is??? Hmmmm... Pet Puppy vs Breeding prospect?

Black Males and Females Pet Puppy $800.00 Breeding Prospect $1200.00

Chocolate Males and Females Pet Puppy $800.00 Breeding Prospect $1200.00

Yellow Males and Females Pet Puppy $800.00 Breeding Prospect $1200.00

LIGHT SILVER Males and Females $1200.00
CHARCOAL SILVER Males and Females $1200.00
ALL SILVER FACTORED Males and Females $800.00


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> Does anyone else find something like this even more disturbing? Wonder what the difference is??? Hmmmm... Pet Puppy vs Breeding prospect?
> 
> Black Males and Females Pet Puppy $800.00 Breeding Prospect $1200.00
> 
> ...


As for the first part, I'm not sure I see the difference b/w that and "limited" and "full" registration. But that's another dead horse for a dreary late-winter day!


----------



## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

We live in America! Land of the FREE(pending) . People can have there own business doing whatever they want to do. Even if it doesnt appeal to you. If they breed and do not have health clearances then it is up to the buyer to know the difference, and most should. It is all over the net about health clearances. You can get taken in anything you do even new puppies!!


----------



## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Howard N said:


> I don't know anything about silver labs, their breeding or health or lack of health clearances. I've never been interested in a lab for it's color.
> 
> But, this little gal liked birds, retrieving and was a typical lab pup. I figured it wouldn't be any harder getting an MH on her than on most any pup out of field breedings. The owner wasn't interested in the dog games but she came out a couple of times to see what her pup would do. The pup retrieved, played with the other dogs, wasn't gun shy and was an altogether nice normal pup.


She can train with me anytime. I don't care if she brings a zebra striped lab with her. She sure knows how to hold a duck.

Lonnie Spann


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Lonnie Spann said:


> She can train with me anytime. I don't care if she brings a zebra striped lab with her. She sure knows how to hold a duck.
> 
> Lonnie Spann


Spoken like a true Southern Boy;-)


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

huntinman said:


> Spoken like a true Southern Boy;-)


That's why told Howard I hoped he extended an open invite... 



Not sure yankees appreciate a good duck choke reguards,

Wait is Alaska past the North???


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> That's why told Howard I hoped he extended an open invite...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Zackly why I hang out here- ya learn someting new every day it seems. I have always been told that the fowl that is most likely to get choked in the southlands is a chicken.


Older and wiser regards

Bubba


----------



## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Bubba said:


> Zackly why I hang out here- ya learn someting new every day it seems. I have always been told that the fowl that is most likely to get choked in the southlands is a chicken.
> 
> 
> Older and wiser regards
> ...


I guess it doesn't matter what part of the country you're from. As my mother would have put it: "Boys will be boys".

She might also have said: "Shame on you!"

Swack


----------



## Duck Blind (Dec 11, 2010)

How many "active" RTFers are Silver Lab breeders? Might explain the lack of participation from them in this thread.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Duckquilizer said:


> Does anyone else find something like this even more disturbing? Wonder what the difference is??? Hmmmm... Pet Puppy vs Breeding prospect?
> 
> Black Males and Females Pet Puppy $800.00 Breeding Prospect $1200.00
> 
> ...


In a situation like that, usually the difference is "are you willing to write a bigger check"? and has nothing to do with quality.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Duck Blind said:


> How many "active" RTFers are Silver Lab breeders? Might explain the lack of participation from them in this thread.


There are a few, and they have refused. Upon researching those, I understand why....false or non-existant health clearances, tightly inbred pedigrees, and general lack of any sort of titles. It's disappointing. I was hoping to be proven wrong.

I have a friend who has a gray Lab, and it does look like a Lab. He has done a great job training it as well, and it's a nice dog.


----------



## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

I contacted a silver breeder online via email query, and I won't use names. As much as I disapprove of their practices, I don't believe in hurting people's livelihoods either. All I asked was for additional information on their health guarantee and asked to see pedigrees. I was wondering if anyone could tell me what a breeder means when they say their stud is still too young to be OFA'd but is clear through "parentage"? Meaning the sire's parents were OFA clear? They did say that they guarantee any pup until its old enough to to be tested. Still waiting on pedigrees. 

The reason for my query isn't this thread. My brother is wanting a silver lab and I just want him to get a good dog. We hunt together a lot. It's hard to trust vagueness IMO. And the response I've gotten back is very vague.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Much of the "vague" comes from two things: lack of knowledge and apathy. The two go hand in hand. 

There is no "clear by parentage" on hips or elbows. And a dog under the age of two, which is how old they need to be to get a number from OFA, can still get what's called a prelim reading on hips, which is a pretty good barometer of the adult score. Does the dog have any clearances for CNM or EIC or PRCD or CERF? If not...and I would ask for and verify them if given...I'd run the other way. If clear by parentage there will be proof of that, also verifiable.


----------



## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Much of the "vague" comes from two things: lack of knowledge and apathy. The two go hand in hand.
> 
> There is no "clear by parentage" on hips or elbows. And a dog under the age of two, which is how old they need to be to get a number from OFA, can still get what's called a prelim reading on hips, which is a pretty good barometer of the adult score. Does the dog have any clearances for CNM or EIC or PRCD or CERF? If not...and I would ask for and verify them if given...I'd run the other way. If clear by parentage there will be proof of that, also verifiable.


That's what I thought, but the parents info wasn't given either. Was hoping to check the parents. Also, it revealed that the stud is younger than 2yo. No, the breeder didn't mention CNM, EIC, or CERF. Typically, and at the breeder I'm about to buy a new pup from, when you ask about health clearances and guarantees, they're jumping through their pants to show you the certifications on their dogs. I really do believe the main problem is lack of knowledge.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I'd call them back and ask for the OFA numbers on the parents of the stud dog, then check them on the OFA website.
Being not quite two isn't bad...if the clearances that have been done are available and there's a prelim on hips. I just bred a female with a prelim of excellent, because she came in season three days before her second birthday and doing hips during a season is not advised.


----------



## sdnordahl (Sep 1, 2012)

"Credibility for the Silver Labs: Breeders, here's your chance."
I haven't seen any. I'm not convinced there is any


----------



## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

jb504079 said:


> ...I was wondering if anyone could tell me what a breeder means when they say their stud is still too young to be OFA'd but is clear through "parentage"? ...


It means you should look elsewhere. The breeder obviously does not understand hips or the OFA.

I agree that there is a general lack of knowledge among too many Silver Labrador Breeders. Most of them got into breeding for all the wrong reasons. Later, as they start to learn what they should have known before they got their start they seem to go one of two ways. They start the process of working to improve what they have; many of those on the links I provided would fall in this boat. Or they keep on breeding while portending ignorance, and unfortunately, there are plenty of ignorant puppy buyers out there. 
What disturbs me the most is that more and more Silver Labrador breeders are in fact learning what they should be testing for and also that they ought to be looking for ways to expand the gene pool in their lines, and retire problematic inbred Labs, yet too many of them stick their heads in the sand and just keep inbreeding and not testing. 

For anyone looking to buy a Silver Labrador, I'd suggest that the best places to look would be breeders who have the traditional Labrador colors among their breeding stock, if not the majority of their breeding stock. A silver puppy from two non-silver parents will have the most going for it 9 times out of 10. Less of the old inbreeding, more health history and clearances, better pedigrees with maybe even a title or two. If all you see from a breeder is Silver (including "charcoal" and "champagne"), and an unwillingness to prove their claims of clearances, then keep looking.


----------



## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

I have had four of these boutique colors come in for basics in the last five years , and all have been washed for lack of desire to retrieve.Two were from a breeder that wanted to get any sort of retrieving title on the dogs,and the other two were purchased by wives on the internet as gifts for hubby ( thanks alot) . The exotic breeds and colors are easy to sell to the exotic seekers.....but not so easy to get one that will make it through a rigorous training program.


----------



## sick lids (Sep 25, 2012)

Had a guy that I used to work with just pick up a silver lab. He knew nothing about health testing and genetic disorders. When I told him he called the breeder and asked about it and inquired where his papers were he said he was hung up on and yelled at then hung up on again. The lady's husband even threatened to call the police. He paid cash no receipt and is probably screwed now. Buyer beware, I hope he gets a healthy pup cause he will not be able to afford a sickly one. It dose look kind cool thou.


----------



## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

sick lids said:


> Had a guy that I used to work with just pick up a silver lab. He knew nothing about health testing and genetic disorders. When I told him he called the breeder and asked about it and inquired where his papers were he said he was hung up on and yelled at then hung up on again. The lady's husband even threatened to call the police. He paid cash no receipt and is probably screwed now. Buyer beware, I hope he gets a healthy pup cause he will not be able to afford a sickly one. It dose look kind cool thou.


And, if its not healthy, he has no chance of any help from the 'breeder' since they've already proven they dont care after the pup leaves..... Any breeder, no matter what color they breed,(or what breed), there should be more for the buyer than that........


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Sad to hear someone else got ripped off. And I'm disappointed to see that no silver folks have proven their responsibility, even those who claim they're doing it right. The only conclusion that I can draw is a negative one.


----------



## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

Jay Dufour said:


> I have had four of these boutique colors come in for basics in the last five years , and all have been washed for lack of desire to retrieve.Two were from a breeder that wanted to get any sort of retrieving title on the dogs,and the other two were purchased by wives on the internet as gifts for hubby ( thanks alot) . The exotic breeds and colors are easy to sell to the exotic seekers.....but not so easy to get one that will make it through a rigorous training program.


I've only seen 1 Silver Lab in training, so take the limited experience for what it is worth, and he did fairly decent work. His name is Carolina's Silver Smoke MH. He does look odd and at times he seems like he's out in lala land but he does good work and earned his MH in fairly short time. I don't know about his clearences or anything about the breeders.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Carolina's Silver Smoke, MH, he's on OFA, hips good, sire is on OFA, hips good. He has, however, 15 offspring on OFA, 4 with failed hips (none with the same dam), which seems a bit high percentage-wise, but kudos to them for reporting and putting it out there so people can research and decide for themselves.


----------



## sdnordahl (Sep 1, 2012)

Sharon Potter said:


> Sad to hear someone else got ripped off. And I'm disappointed to see that no silver folks have proven their responsibility, even those who claim they're doing it right. *The only conclusion that I can draw is a negative on*e.


I second this


----------



## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

Just an anecdote... My male chessie is not the typiest dog in the world, LOL. We had stopped at Cabela's to shop and were walking him down the greenbelt before going in. A car pulled up and a lady leaned out to ask if she could breed her registered silver labrador to our dog, because she was in heat "right now." Man, I had to bite my tongue. I did get some satisfaction out of telling her that he's not a labrador, but I thought for a minute she was going to suggest we do it anyway, LOL.


----------



## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Pam Spears said:


> Just an anecdote... My male chessie is not the typiest dog in the world, LOL. We had stopped at Cabela's to shop and were walking him down the greenbelt before going in. A car pulled up and a lady leaned out to ask if she could breed her registered silver labrador to our dog, because she was in heat "right now." Man, I had to bite my tongue. I did get some satisfaction out of telling her that he's not a labrador, but I thought for a minute she was going to suggest we do it anyway, LOL.


Was the Lab dressed in high heels and a miniskirt? Did the owner have on a big furry hat and some bling? Sorry but that is the image that came to mind. Could be a new reality TV show or something.


----------



## Takem_brewer (Jun 8, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> Carolina's Silver Smoke, MH, he's on OFA, hips good, sire is on OFA, hips good. He has, however, 15 offspring on OFA, 4 with failed hips (none with the same dam), which seems a bit high percentage-wise, but kudos to them for reporting and putting it out there so people can research and decide for themselves.


Those actually are siblings to him, not offpsring.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

I believe that Kim meant the sire as "He has, however, 15 offspring..." not that Smoke has 15 offspring. Regardless, if one is breeding properly, the siblings of the sire and dam (known as a vertical pedigree) are scrutinized just as heavily as the offspring of an individual due to the nature of dysplasia, in that it is not a simple recessive single gene.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

What Raina said.  Should have been more clear though, Smoke's sire is the one with the offspring.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> What Raina said.  Should have been more clear though, Smoke's sire is the one with the offspring.


Hey Kim,


Since we are on the subject, I have a friend looking for a creme lab. Any chance you have one? They are tired of the more common Fox Red's. Was thinking of a Silver, but it creeped him out. 

Cory's running Lexi in more challange hunts this winter and doing pretty good. She is really a nice girl and you would be proud of what he has done with her. Not sure if he told you, but he took top puppy last year and was 10 pts shy top open. Shows what going to a good breeder can do for you.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Haha, Chuck, sorry, no creme's, or any other shade for that matter, all sold out and time to start getting ready for some orange and maybe some other colors this season. ;-) Wendi's littermate to Cory's Lexi ran her first Qual a couple weeks ago, got a Jam. Take care, see you this summer. If it ever gets here.


----------



## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

The head of a truck repair shop I go to told me his wife bought a white retriever from a broker that finds puppies for you , when I asked if it was a lab he said they were told it was a rare white retriever and he didn't think it was a lab. He showed me a picture of it and it was a snow white lab. He said they paid $4000 for it plus $1000 for shipping. He said when they got it there was some paper work with it that told who the breeder was, I'm not sure if it was AKC registration papers or not, but he went on line and found the breeder and they had an add for that litter and they were asking $800 each. He said he was really pi$$ when he saw that.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

sdnordahl said:


> Wow I see what you mean. If you look at there "silvers" there body style does not look like a lab. English or american/FT style. I'll stick to my HT/FT champ black labs.


No offense but I did notice in your little website about your dog you misspelled pedigree.


----------



## sdnordahl (Sep 1, 2012)

HNTFSH said:


> No offense but I did notice in your little website about your dog you misspelled pedigree.


wow and it's not even a little misspelled. I destroyed it. That's what happens when I work on the website late after work.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Scott Parker said:


> The head of a truck repair shop I go to told me his wife bought a white retriever from a broker that finds puppies for you , when I asked if it was a lab he said they were told it was a rare white retriever and he didn't think it was a lab. He showed me a picture of it and it was a snow white lab. He said they paid $4000 for it plus $1000 for shipping. He said when they got it there was some paper work with it that told who the breeder was, I'm not sure if it was AKC registration papers or not, but he went on line and found the breeder and they had an add for that litter and they were asking $800 each. He said he was really pi$$ when he saw that.


I have seen those, they advertise for each state with so that it looks like they have a "business" in each, but they don't. They will "broker" whole litters from all types of breeders, with no regard to how well the dog is bred, health, temperament, etc.. and some are not even AKC registered, instead they are registered with some of the faux registries. You will find that those "rare" colors go for much more than blacks, reg. toned yellows, and even chocolates. I don't know why anyone would use them to find a lab. A person could easily find a comparably bred lab in the local paper any day of the week and it will be local so that you can at least see what you are getting a head of time. Nor would I pay $4000 plus an add'l grand for shipping on any lab pup that wasn't from an NFC x NFC litter!


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm on my husbands account but my name is Natasha Hall and I wanted to add my 2 cents. A little background on me before I get to my point. I have a B.S. and M.S. in Animal Science with an emphasis on reproductive physiology and genetics from Texas A&M and I completed half of my PhD in molecular genetics before leaving school to relocate and marry my husband. My focus wasn't on dogs but for 4 years while I was in school I managed a "custom color sport horse" breeding facility where we bred specifically for color. Something similar to the dilution gene that is responsible for silvers, champagnes and charcoals in Labradors is also present in horses. This is where palominos, buckskins, cremellos and perlinos come from (http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/creamdilutiontbs.html). The American Jockey Club would not even recognize the dilute color in Thoroughbred horses until the 1980's. One of the first "dilute" Jockey Club registered Thoroughbred horses, Glitter Please, was owned by the farm I managed and his offspring can now be found around the world and are the founding dilute thoroughbreds so to speak. Now, this horse was purebred and was not the product of two different breeds crossed together. When you look back through the records you find that those horses that were born with the dilution gene were culled after foaling because they were deemed to be defective. This was before genetic testing and it now seems absurd that a naturally occurring gene was considered abhorrent. But, that's just the way it was. I told the story about the JC because the same thing seems to be happening with the "dilute" labs. I don't own a silver but I would in a heartbeat if I found one with a pedigree I liked. This comes from becoming a color snob after my years of breeding for color in horses. To think that this gene is not naturally occurring in labs is laughable. If the allele didn't exist, you wouldn't be able to test for it in non-dilute labs. But, when you run the test, the allele shows up, even if there's no dilution. It is almost impossible to remove recessive genes from any given population of animals because you can't see them to eliminate them. The reason there are so many more blacks compared to chocolates is that black is completely dominant to chocolate so even if a dog carries the gene it's not expressed. Unlike horses where a single dilution gene will appear, a single dilution gene in dogs will not show up. We don't know how many dogs were culled because they had a defective color before Culo, Kellogg, etc. decided to breed for the color. No doubt this was done through inbreeding and line-breeding but let's be really honest, that's how every single breed of dog came to exist. When looking at the evolutionary genetics of dog breeds, they all have a common ancestor. We want to act like a Labrador is really so different than a Weimaraner because how else can we have "purebred" dogs when the reality is, there are only a handful of genes that separate the two breeds. The Brahman cow, for example, is a combination of 4 different breeds that have been combined to create this "breed" of cattle and if you keep breeding that final cross enough, you establish a breed. In the case of Brahman cattle, the breed literally came into existence around 1924. My point to all of this is that if you establish a gene, or a combination of genes, within a population for multiple generations, the gene will become fixed within that population. Dilute labs aren't going away. More and more labs are being bred with this gene and it's only a matter of time before the AKC and UKC will allow the dilution color registration, much like the Jockey Club did. 

There is no way to identify the origins of the dilution gene but consider for a moment that a "Labrador retriever" itself did not exist until the late 1800's. The first yellow lab was documented in 1899 and the first chocolates in the 1930's. So a Labrador retriever is not a pure bred dog in the sense that it has always existed; it was developed from selectively breeding Lesser Newfoundlands, also known as the St. John's water dog. Crossbreeding that occurred in the early 1900's could have contributed to these genes before people actively registered dogs and tracked pedigrees. 

Okay so enough with genetics and history. To get to your point Sharon, there are deficiencies in the dilute labs, in part due to the negative stereotypes associated with them. There are next to no hunt test/field trial dilutes. Were they bred for color? Yes. Did that create some problems? Perhaps. That's always the case when you line breed but those issues should have been resolved generations ago. You can look at 5 generation pedigrees of a lot of the silver dogs out there today and not find a lot of line-breeding. However, I find it curious that you brought this up with silvers but not with what we do with competition dogs. Look at FC AFC Texas Troubadour, he's got Lean Mac 2 times in his pedigree. He is a line-bred dog. This means there's an increased chance for recessives to show up in him and his offspring (especially if the bitch has Lean Mac, or is also double-bred Lean Mac). Does this make him unhealthy with a shorter lifespan? Not at all. It takes a pretty significant recessive to cause the kind of affects you want to attribute to a broad group of dogs that probably isn't even based on observation, rather your inherent bias against silvers because they're new and not what you've seen for the past 50 years in labs. 

Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's not part of the dogs genetic code. Just because people breed for a specific color, doesn't make it wrong. All dog breeds developed from selective breeding. We breed for competition dogs to maximize their performance. If you put the same effort into integrating dilutes into competition bloodlines, I don't think you would find any difference in performance. It's going to take several generations to establish a "field trial/hunt test" line of dilutes but it will happen. There are already breeders using the genetics of quality field bred labs to get puppies that carry the dilution that have decent pedigrees. 

There's also the cost aspect to consider as well. For example, look at what it takes to sacrifice a breeding of a competition chocolate bitch to a silver male (with no titles in his pedigree). You produce chocolates that have a dilution but don't show it, then you have to train and campaign with one of those puppies for at least 2 years until they're breedable. Then you have to find another unrelated pair (one silver, one competition chocolate) to produce a dog with a dilution gene. So now we have 2 dilution carries and if we breed them together there's only a 25% chance of actually getting silvers, 50% of more carriers and a 25% chance of no dilution at all. Now you have to have 4 other unrelated dogs to produce another litter that has 25% chance of silvers to be able to have 2 unrelated silver dogs to breed together to get a 100% silver litter. That's 7 different breedings over 4 generations that could take 6-10 years to accomplish since you have to wait until they're 2 to breed plus the time it takes to campaign them just so you have a decent looking pedigree on the dilute puppies. This doesn't even account for biases from judges (let's not pretend there aren't biases for blacks and against other colors as it is, yet alone the dilutions! But sometimes it does work the other way) and the extra time it will take to get titles and FC AFCs. You can kinda see why the silver breeders just breed for color rather than sacrifice breedings for bloodline improvements because of the sheer amount of time, effort, energy and money it will take to get the dilutes caught up to chocolates and yellows in terms of top level pedigrees. 

We just have to stop being ignorant about it and accept that labs have dozens of shades and colors. You're not going to stop dilute labradors from being produced or sold or hunted or campaigned. Why? They're pretty and exotic and that sells so they will continue to be bred. The more they become mainstays at hunt tests and field trials the closer to breed standards they will become. It's just going to take some time.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

duckdawg27 said:


> I'm sorry but how could any breeding where you have to lie about the color of the pups in order to register them ever be considered "responsible breeding".....just sayin'.


Umm, it's not a lie. A silver is a chocolate. There's E_bbdd. The bb in there is, in fact, chocolate. A charcoal is black. It's genotype is E_B_dd. A champagne is yellow ee__dd. So there's no lie, registering the base color and not the dilution is a valid, if not antiquated, way of identifying the dog. We register yellow labs as yellow even though the yellow could mask homozygous black (BB), heterozygous black (Bb), or chocolate (bb). Or a tri-factored black lab as simple black. AKC/UKC asks for color, not genotype.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

You make some great points. Is there a breed of dog that has bettered itself to date by focused breeding on dilute color? Any breed?


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Txcutter2 said:


> I'm on my husbands account but my name is Natasha Hall and I wanted to add my 2 cents. A little background on me before I get to my point. I have a B.S. and M.S. in Animal Science with an emphasis on reproductive physiology and genetics from Texas A&M and I completed half of my PhD in molecular genetics before leaving school to relocate and marry my husband. My focus wasn't on dogs but for 4 years while I was in school I managed a "custom color sport horse" breeding facility where we bred specifically for color. Something similar to the dilution gene that is responsible for silvers, champagnes and charcoals in Labradors is also present in horses. This is where palominos, buckskins, cremellos and perlinos come from (http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/creamdilutiontbs.html). The American Jockey Club would not even recognize the dilute color in Thoroughbred horses until the 1980's. One of the first "dilute" Jockey Club registered Thoroughbred horses, Glitter Please, was owned by the farm I managed and his offspring can now be found around the world and are the founding dilute thoroughbreds so to speak. Now, this horse was purebred and was not the product of two different breeds crossed together. When you look back through the records you find that those horses that were born with the dilution gene were culled after foaling because they were deemed to be defective. This was before genetic testing and it now seems absurd that a naturally occurring gene was considered abhorrent. But, that's just the way it was. I told the story about the JC because the same thing seems to be happening with the "dilute" labs. I don't own a silver but I would in a heartbeat if I found one with a pedigree I liked. This comes from becoming a color snob after my years of breeding for color in horses. To think that this gene is not naturally occurring in labs is laughable. If the allele didn't exist, you wouldn't be able to test for it in non-dilute labs. But, when you run the test, the allele shows up, even if there's no dilution. It is almost impossible to remove recessive genes from any given population of animals because you can't see them to eliminate them. The reason there are so many more blacks compared to chocolates is that black is completely dominant to chocolate so even if a dog carries the gene it's not expressed. Unlike horses where a single dilution gene will appear, a single dilution gene in dogs will not show up. We don't know how many dogs were culled because they had a defective color before Culo, Kellogg, etc. decided to breed for the color. No doubt this was done through inbreeding and line-breeding but let's be really honest, that's how every single breed of dog came to exist. When looking at the evolutionary genetics of dog breeds, they all have a common ancestor. We want to act like a Labrador is really so different than a Weimaraner because how else can we have "purebred" dogs when the reality is, there are only a handful of genes that separate the two breeds. The Brahman cow, for example, is a combination of 4 different breeds that have been combined to create this "breed" of cattle and if you keep breeding that final cross enough, you establish a breed. In the case of Brahman cattle, the breed literally came into existence around 1924. My point to all of this is that if you establish a gene, or a combination of genes, within a population for multiple generations, the gene will become fixed within that population. Dilute labs aren't going away. More and more labs are being bred with this gene and it's only a matter of time before the AKC and UKC will allow the dilution color registration, much like the Jockey Club did.
> 
> There is no way to identify the origins of the dilution gene but consider for a moment that a "Labrador retriever" itself did not exist until the late 1800's. The first yellow lab was documented in 1899 and the first chocolates in the 1930's. So a Labrador retriever is not a pure bred dog in the sense that it has always existed; it was developed from selectively breeding Lesser Newfoundlands, also known as the St. John's water dog. Crossbreeding that occurred in the early 1900's could have contributed to these genes before people actively registered dogs and tracked pedigrees.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your post it was very informative. 

I looked at the referenced tbred pedigree. I wasn't familiar with the horse and after a little research it is due to him not being a racehorse. There are some really nice horses in his pedigree though and I intend to read more about him. At first I thought you were referring to the breeding operation striving for registerable white racing thoroughbreds. The horse has obviously performed in the ring also and that performance is where you and I will have a difference of opinion as to why he should be bred and silvers to silvers should not.

Now about the dogs. For the silvers to ever be taken seriously as a performance dog the breeders must stop breeding just for color and make the sacrifices that are necessary. Until they do that competition breeders will continue to simply view them as worthless puppy mill profit only dogs with their only purpose being to be silver. If that is what the breeders want well that is just sad.

Again thank you for this well thought out informative post.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> You make some great points. Is there a breed of dog that has bettered itself to date by focused breeding on dilute color? Any breed?


I don't know. But what's the difference between breeding for a chocolate vs breeding for a yellow or a silver. It's just one gene. I could argue that EIC is more prevalent in dogs that carry the yellow
Gene and yet that's not frowned upon. I would say that anytime you focus on one trait and only one trait it's not good. You want to produce well rounded dogs as I agree that there are a lot of breeders not doing that with dilutes right now.


----------



## Takem_brewer (Jun 8, 2010)

Txcutter2 said:


> I'm on my husbands account but my name is Natasha Hall and I wanted to add my 2 cents. A little background on me before I get to my point. I have a B.S. and M.S. in Animal Science with an emphasis on reproductive physiology and genetics from Texas A&M and I completed half of my PhD in molecular genetics before leaving school to relocate and marry my husband. My focus wasn't on dogs but for 4 years while I was in school I managed a "custom color sport horse" breeding facility where we bred specifically for color. Something similar to the dilution gene that is responsible for silvers, champagnes and charcoals in Labradors is also present in horses. This is where palominos, buckskins, cremellos and perlinos come from (http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/creamdilutiontbs.html). The American Jockey Club would not even recognize the dilute color in Thoroughbred horses until the 1980's. One of the first "dilute" Jockey Club registered Thoroughbred horses, Glitter Please, was owned by the farm I managed and his offspring can now be found around the world and are the founding dilute thoroughbreds so to speak. Now, this horse was purebred and was not the product of two different breeds crossed together. When you look back through the records you find that those horses that were born with the dilution gene were culled after foaling because they were deemed to be defective. This was before genetic testing and it now seems absurd that a naturally occurring gene was considered abhorrent. But, that's just the way it was. I told the story about the JC because the same thing seems to be happening with the "dilute" labs. I don't own a silver but I would in a heartbeat if I found one with a pedigree I liked. This comes from becoming a color snob after my years of breeding for color in horses. To think that this gene is not naturally occurring in labs is laughable. If the allele didn't exist, you wouldn't be able to test for it in non-dilute labs. But, when you run the test, the allele shows up, even if there's no dilution. It is almost impossible to remove recessive genes from any given population of animals because you can't see them to eliminate them. The reason there are so many more blacks compared to chocolates is that black is completely dominant to chocolate so even if a dog carries the gene it's not expressed. Unlike horses where a single dilution gene will appear, a single dilution gene in dogs will not show up. We don't know how many dogs were culled because they had a defective color before Culo, Kellogg, etc. decided to breed for the color. No doubt this was done through inbreeding and line-breeding but let's be really honest, that's how every single breed of dog came to exist. When looking at the evolutionary genetics of dog breeds, they all have a common ancestor. We want to act like a Labrador is really so different than a Weimaraner because how else can we have "purebred" dogs when the reality is, there are only a handful of genes that separate the two breeds. The Brahman cow, for example, is a combination of 4 different breeds that have been combined to create this "breed" of cattle and if you keep breeding that final cross enough, you establish a breed. In the case of Brahman cattle, the breed literally came into existence around 1924. My point to all of this is that if you establish a gene, or a combination of genes, within a population for multiple generations, the gene will become fixed within that population. Dilute labs aren't going away. More and more labs are being bred with this gene and it's only a matter of time before the AKC and UKC will allow the dilution color registration, much like the Jockey Club did.
> 
> There is no way to identify the origins of the dilution gene but consider for a moment that a "Labrador retriever" itself did not exist until the late 1800's. The first yellow lab was documented in 1899 and the first chocolates in the 1930's. So a Labrador retriever is not a pure bred dog in the sense that it has always existed; it was developed from selectively breeding Lesser Newfoundlands, also known as the St. John's water dog. Crossbreeding that occurred in the early 1900's could have contributed to these genes before people actively registered dogs and tracked pedigrees.
> 
> ...


For obvious reasons, I agree with you on some parts of what you say. I too realize that the dilute gene is not going to go away, but as of now the Labrador Club of America does not recognize the color, so the AKC will not recognize the color as well. The AKC does not make the standard. Whether they do in the future allow the color in the standard, well that's up to them and you can not say they will or will not. I believe that is the dilute labs truly want to be successful, they should be campaigning to make their own breed with their own set of standards. Where the color came from, no one will know now, so point in trying to figure it out. Trying to make facts out of opinions makes people look ignorant. 

I don't think that the health problems with labs can all be attributed to the linebreeding or inbreeding. I would believe this mainly has to do with the people who breed the dilute labs are not doing health clearances a large majority of the time. They are not considering their breeding pool's health, and breeding anything that has the color they desire. They are breeding dogs with obvious health problems and not so obvious health problems in order to produce this rare color that misinformed people are buying. You comparing the linebreeding of labs to the inbreeding of dilute labs is completely different and is comparing apples to oranges. 

"Just because people breed for a specific color, don't make it bad". In part I agree, but I don't think that people are considering it bad to breed for color near as much as the bad breeding practices that these people who are breeding for color are using.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Txcutter2 said:


> I don't know. But what's the difference between breeding for a chocolate vs breeding for a yellow or a silver. It's just one gene. I could argue that EIC is more prevalent in dogs that carry the yellow
> Gene and yet that's not frowned upon. I would say that anytime you focus on one trait and only one trait it's not good. You want to produce well rounded dogs as I agree that there are a lot of breeders not doing that with dilutes right now.


True - but in the case of yellow or even EIC - there's a performance history? Nobody is breeding Affected to Affected with a purpose. Chocolate is not the same as silver. My only frame of reference is what I see. Lots and lots of Silver breedings at a very high price tag and not a pedigree I'd buy even if they were Yellow, Black or Chocolate - at 1/5 the price.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Now about the dogs. For the silvers to ever be taken seriously as a performance dog the breeders must stop breeding just for color and make the sacrifices that are necessary. Until they do that competition breeders will continue to simply view them as worthless puppy mill profit only dogs with their only purpose being to be silver. If that is what the breeders want well that is just sad. .


Oh I completely agree. It's disheartening to look thru 100 silver lab pedigrees and never find more than a SHR or JH in 3 or 4 generations. The dilute breeders are going to have to step up or those of us who like a good project are going to have to take on the task of improving the bloodlines/confirmation/etc. it's going to take sacrifice and it's going to take time. Without those titles in the pedigree how do you even know if the dog has drive or wants to get wet or nicks well? It's a gamble and it's taking that risk to train and campaign the dog before breeding it and getting clearances. I think more breeders might take it on if they weren't suddenly put on the defensive because they're getting hammered for even considering a dilute. 

As far as breeding to make lots of money, there aren't many advertised for more than $1000 and carriers can be as cheap as $400-$500. I'm not commenting on quality just pointing out that you take a loss on carriers and solids, especially if one side of the pedigree has no titles even if the other side does. And a lot of breeders only give limited registrations (double-edged sword but that's a completely different can of worms). But compared to what we spend on training and competing they have significantly less overhead than those of us with field bred labs. The goal should be to improve the breed, not just make money. And I pointed out to a silver breeder, if more of them proved their dogs out they would actually make significantly more money than they're making now. Don't tell me you couldn't get $3-$5k for silver pups out of FC AFC parents if they were that kind of quality dogs. The breeders are defeating their own end goals by not stepping up and doing what it takes to campaign and prove out their breeding stock.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

> I believe that is the dilute labs truly want to be successful, they should be campaigning to make their own breed with their own set of standards. Where the color came from, no one will know now, so point in trying to figure it out.


 Seriously? An entire new breed because of one gene? Then the chocolate and black labs can be one breed since it's the same gene but the yellow has to be a different breed because it's not on the B locus. It's not practical or logical to make that argument, sorry, there's no way to justify creating an entirely new breed because of a single locus out of millions.




> I don't think that the health problems with labs can all be attributed to the linebreeding or inbreeding. I would believe this mainly has to do with the people who breed the dilute labs are not doing health clearances a large majority of the time. They are not considering their breeding pool's health, and breeding anything that has the color they desire. They are breeding dogs with obvious health problems and not so obvious health problems in order to produce this rare color that misinformed people are buying. You comparing the linebreeding of labs to the inbreeding of dilute labs is completely different and is comparing apples to oranges.


So how do you explain EIC becoming so pervasive? Wasn't the line breeding to Lean Mac a contributing factor comparable to HYPP in horses and the AQHA Stud Impressive? The genome can't distinguish being line bred for color any more than it can being line bred for performance, or height or weight or any other single trait. You put two related genomes together and you increase the chance of bringing out recessives. This is why brothers and sisters shouldn't breed. It doesn't matter if your goal is to get a particular trait, it's because there can be negative traits that occur due to hidden recessives becoming expressed that occurs when this happens. Can two siblings breed and not show deleterious effects? Yes, but you keep inbreeding, those recessives will show themselves. 

I think the bad breeding practices in terms of any silver x any silver = good breeding is poor animal husbandry. But like I mentioned in my original post, there isn't a lot of line breeding that I've seen in the 5 gen pedigrees I've seen. But there are some FUGLY silvers out there that I wouldn't have picked to be parents because they don't fit the breed standards that I would choose when picking parents.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> True - but in the case of yellow or even EIC - there's a performance history? Nobody is breeding Affected to Affected with a purpose. Chocolate is not the same as silver. My only frame of reference is what I see. Lots and lots of Silver breedings at a very high price tag and not a pedigree I'd buy even if they were Yellow, Black or Chocolate - at 1/5 the price.


Well, why do chocolates sell faster and at higher prices than better bred blacks? It's pretty. It's unique. It's exotic. That won't change. Why does a French Bulldog sell for $3,000-$10,000 when it can hardly breathe, has skin allergies, can't even mate or give birth naturally and can't be in temperatures over 85 degrees without overheating? Our labs are FAR more useful than a lot of these designer breeds and are relatively cheap for the quality of animals we produce. I mean you can get a finished lab that will pick up every bird during duck season for less than designer dog. Is that fair to us considering the time, effort and money we put into our dogs? Not at all. But there's hundreds of lab breeders out there and most lab owners want house dogs. We cater to the hunters and competitors but we're the exception rather than the rule. 

Would I want to spend $1000 on a dog that doesn't have a single title in a 5 generation pedigree? No. But until someone starts to produce quality dilute labs, the backyard breeders don't have a single thing to compare their pedigrees to. If they ALL have crappy pedigrees and they're all selling pups for $1000/pup, then there's no market pressure to provide an incentive for them to produce better quality dogs. It's just like the white labs. They'll go for $3,000 just because they're snow white. It's just a different niche of our industry with different clientele. I just think it doesn't have to be one or the other. I think quality dilute labs can be produced that would justify the higher cost of the pups.


----------



## just me (Feb 17, 2010)

doesn't have to be a breed.. akc recognizes 3 varieties of american cocker 2 varieties of chihuahua 2 sizes of beagle and 3 varieties of poodle they could just as easily recognize a "variety" of lab.. and then theres dachshunds....


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Natasha your knew assignment should you decide to accept it is to take the best bred dilute lab and breed it to the point that you are producing a viable competition lab. There went Mission Impossible tv series on y'all. Man i'm getting old.

Black and white tv regards,


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

haha the only reason I've gotten so into it is because I actually do want to. It's the nerd in me that wants a good genetic challenge and to produce something one of a kind. I've looked at so many silver labs it's not even funny. I'm not going to lie, I love the color and I like the thought of the challenge. But there's a ton of obstacles to overcome: OFAs, CERFs, Pedigrees, drive, EIC/CNM and the general perception of silvers that currently exists within the FT/HT community. It's hard to justify spending $1000 on silver when I can spend $1500 on a chocolate out of an FC AFC with 30 FC AFC dogs in a 5 gen pedigree that I know will produce in the duck blind and in competition. Of course if my husband would let me I'd just get both and have my first breeding to get chocolate/dilute and then a few years later get silvers. But then you look and think, wow, that's 4-5 years from now....


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Txcutter2 said:


> Well, why do chocolates sell faster and at higher prices than better bred blacks? It's pretty. It's unique. It's exotic. That won't change. .


;-) We don't disagree. However - please don't compare Chocolate to Silver. Yes - the Chocolate has a bit of a premium, more so on a great working pedigree but they're hardly 'exotic' or unique. More an example of supply/demand from generations of culling.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Txcutter2 said:


> haha the only reason I've gotten so into it is because I actually do want to. It's the nerd in me that wants a good genetic challenge and to produce something one of a kind. I've looked at so many silver labs it's not even funny. I'm not going to lie, I love the color and I like the thought of the challenge. But there's a ton of obstacles to overcome: OFAs, CERFs, Pedigrees, drive, EIC/CNM and the general perception of silvers that currently exists within the FT/HT community. It's hard to justify spending $1000 on silver when I can spend $1500 on a chocolate out of an FC AFC with 30 FC AFC dogs in a 5 gen pedigree that I know will produce in the duck blind and in competition. Of course if my husband would let me I'd just get both and have my first breeding to get chocolate/dilute and then a few years later get silvers. But then you look and think, wow, that's 4-5 years from now....


You must be fairly young. 4 or 5 yrs is a drop in the bucket. How should I put this, well you have certain negotiating abilities that your husband doesn't have. A timely use or lack of use of these abilities will certainly bring him onto your side.;-)


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

Well compare the number of blacks and yellows on the lab puppy page and then look for chocolates. I'm not saying chocolate is as exotic as silver, but yellow's been around 30 years longer than chocolates and it's just harder to produce them. They're both recessive genes so you have the same probabilities of producing a chocolate from 2 carriers as you do producing a silver from 2 carriers.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

duk4me said:


> You must be fairly young. 4 or 5 yrs is a drop in the bucket.


 Yes, but I want to be producing top notch silver litters NOW! 4-5 years will go by in a flash, i know, but I'm impatient and want to see the end result of my selective breeding decisions. It's hard enough for me to wait 4 weeks for an ultrasound after a breeding, let alone waiting for everything that would go into this endeavor.


----------



## just me (Feb 17, 2010)

4 or 5 years isn't even close to the timeframe...you're looking at 1 possibly 2 litters in that time frame

ed samples (no pelts for those looking)


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

TxCutter2
You're so full of it your eyes are Brown.


----------



## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

Txcutter2 said:


> Well compare the number of blacks and yellows on the lab puppy page and then look for chocolates. I'm not saying chocolate is as exotic as silver, but yellow's been around 30 years longer than chocolates and it's just harder to produce them. They're both recessive genes so you have the same probabilities of producing a chocolate from 2 carriers as you do producing a silver from 2 carriers.


That's funny because EVERY Lab history I've ever read has Black and Chocolate as the first two colors to show up. Yellow came later. As far as silver labs in competition and to the breeders, its very costly and time consuming to produce a black lab with an excellent pedigree and get an AFC or FC. So for them to sell a pup at $1000 with no clearances is far more lucrative.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

kcrumpy9 said:


> That's funny because EVERY Lab history I've ever read has Black and Chocolate as the first two colors to show up. Yellow came later. As far as silver labs in competition and to the breeders, its very costly and time consuming to produce a black lab with an excellent pedigree and get an AFC or FC. So for them to sell a pup at $1000 with no clearances is far more lucrative.


Actually the first recorded yellow was 1899,, first recorded chocolate was 1930. And imagine how the Newfoundland owners felt when they saw their prize dogs being bred with spaniels and pointers to make what is known as the Lesser Newfoundland( From the Complete Labrador Retriever) by Helen Warwick and forwarded by Thomas Merritt Sr. Two people much more knowledgeable than the keyboard slingers we have here. Every breed out there has been nothing but a work in progress. Canines are the most over engineered gene pool known to man because of man. Why do we have to be so narrow minded in regards to future development of the breed.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Natasha, having been involved professionally with horses for 30+ years, including breeding and training, I can appreciate your comments on the JC. And I do remember Glitter Please, who was a lovely, talented horse. However, I am adamantly opposed to what, in the industry, are referred to as the "Krazy Kolor Breeders". The vast majority are producing poor quality horses that sell for big bucks just because of the coat color. Very, very few are breeding for anything more than coat patterns and dilutes, and the quality associated with horses being bred for top performance is not there. While there are color registries that are legit...Appaloosa & Paint, just to name two...I find it interesting that more often than not in Apps and Paints, the top winning horses aren't all that colored/marked. That's because the really good breeders are breeding for a good horse first and whatever color it comes out is fine with them as long as it's a good horse. Any time someone starts breeding specifically for dilutes and coat patterns/colors, the quality tends to go downhill. I'm a believer in the saying "A good horse is never a bad color". But when I say good, I actually mean talented good, not just "family pet that we love no matter what" good. 

While it is certainly possible that the dilute gene exists in Labradors, it is also highly probable that there are Weims crossed in. Just the physical appearance of some of the dogs is enough to make that obvious. As for AKC ever recognizing the silver color, it's not up to AKC, it's up to the Labrador Retriever Club and they have clearly stated they are absolutely against it, and that is not likely to change. 

As for linebreeding, it is done to fix traits...make them more heritable. Nothing at all wrong with line breeding. In the case of a line-bred Lean Mac dog, that means they were trying to double up on the talent Lean Mac brings to the table. In the case of a color breeder, they are trying to increase the odds of producing color, with no other qualities considered.

As for the time, money and effort it takes...especially swimming upstream....all I can say is welcome to being a breeder, regardless of color. The high end field Labs are not going to breed for dilutes, and it is highly unlikely they would knowingly sell a puppy to anyone who would. 

To go back to your equine example of Glitter Please....he was a great example of starting with quality first, color second. The silver Lab folks are doing it backwards, which, coupled with the lack of health clearances, fake/misrepresented health clearances, etc. is not helping the credibility one bit. 

Back to my original post, which was about giving an opportunity to lend credibility: If you've got a gray Lab with the same talent, clearances, etc. as the recognized colors in the breed standard, please do post the info.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> The silver Lab folks are doing it backwards, which, coupled with the lack of health clearances, fake/misrepresented health clearances, etc. is not helping the credibility one bit.


We all hate partial quotes although, this sums it up. You can sell Silver Labs all day long in the newspaper want ads and those odd ball Gundog sites. What you won't get is a bunch of competitive gamers knocking on your door wanting to be "first" in line for a pick of the litter. You'll probably sell them for 10X what the pedigree is worth based on color alone. That certainly won't make them better in the field. I've seen about 2-3 silver labs in the last three years. They have been horribly put together. Terrible heads, structure and a big dose of lack of drive/interest in retrieve and birds. 

They were just a Weim with a long tail. Lots of people think of Weims as small dogs. Not the case. Weims are easily and often on the size range of a larger field lab.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Color should be the frosting on the cake, not the whole recipe.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

> While it is certainly possible that the dilute gene exists in Labradors, it is also highly probable that there are Weims crossed in. Just the physical appearance of some of the dogs is enough to make that obvious. As for AKC ever recognizing the silver color, it's not up to AKC, it's up to the Labrador Retriever Club and they have clearly stated they are absolutely against it, and that is not likely to change.
> 
> As for linebreeding, it is done to fix traits...make them more heritable. Nothing at all wrong with line breeding. In the case of a line-bred Lean Mac dog, that means they were trying to double up on the talent Lean Mac brings to the table. In the case of a color breeder, they are trying to increase the odds of producing color, with no other qualities considered.
> 
> ...


Sharon, I agree with several points you made. In my time working as a horse breeder there were certainly clients who had horses they bred to our studs that did not enhance the breed. Whether the mares were poorly put together or had issues with the feet and legs, it was color they were after. As I mentioned in several of my previous comments, any time you breed for one specific trait, there are going to be issues. You can see this when you look at Doberman's and the breeding done to decrease head size and the issues created from pressure on the brain because the skulls are now too small to adequately house the brain. Many "specialty" breeds of dogs (i.e. teacups, minis, etc.) end up having increased health problems because only one trait was selected for. 

To say that Wiems were crossed in based on the fact that there are some that look like Weims (when, as I stated in my original post, they share ~99.8% of their genes anyway) is speculative. I've seen yellow labs that look like Weims or blacks that look more Chessy. Not all labs fit the breed standard and there are some silvers out there that fit the breed standard more than a lot of dogs I've seen running trials. Actually, I'd say 85% or more of the labs that run hunt tests or field trials don't meet the breed standard set by LRC. They don't have "otter" tails or have the big blocky build but this isn't a show ring and we know looks don't equate to performance. One of the grandfather's of two of our pups, NFC FC AFC Clubmead's Road Warrior, is one of the ugliest labs I've seen. But man, he could perform. If people want to dismiss dogs because they don't look like the breed standard, they don't need to be running labs because champions come in all shapes, sizes and colors. 

As for the Labrador Retriever Club, they can say all they want about never allowing it but the Jockey Club said the same thing about dilute too. Eventually they are going to be looking at tens of thousands of animals with dilutions and they're not going to able to resist the pressure to change. Like any organization, they don't want to change because a) change is scary b) if they change something, some of them feel like it's admitting they were wrong and no one likes to do that.

And I certainly understand how line breeding is done and the goal of fixing genes within a population. Like you said, the goal with double bred Lean Mac is to try and capture the genes that made him so good. The problem is, each allele has 2 loci and only one of those gets passed down to offspring. It's not an issue if you have homozygous alleles but if you have heterozygous alleles, and one of them happens to be deleterious, then the deleterious allele has a 50% chance of being passed down. If that deleterious allele is in the two related dogs you are breeding to create that line bred offspring, you have now fixed a bad allele in the resulting offspring. This is how issues like EIC, CNM and HYPP increase within the normal populations of animals. While these recessive genes may have been dormant within the population for generations, when an animal that is a carrier for this recessive gene is line bred, producing hundreds or thousands of offspring, you create an issue within the entire population of animals. This isn't limited to performance animals like Lean Mac or Impressive, this is the risk when you line breed anything. Every time you line breed you aren't necessarily going to uncover a hidden recessive that can cause the kind of damage EIC and HYPP cause, but there is still an associated risk that you could. While we have mapped the canine genome we still don't know what all of the genes do and to me, it's more responsible to err on the side of caution than to mess with line breeding. Besides that, I consider hybrid vigor to produce higher quality animals than line breeding (based on the hybrid vigor analysis that has been done on several other species, including cattle). For those unfamiliar with hybrid vigor, it's the increased performance due to dissimilar genes being combined. It basically produces better quality than either of the genes could produce on their own. Example A + A = Good performance, B + B = Good performance but A + B = Great performance.

I haven't disagreed with anyone on here in terms of acknowledging that the current breeders of dilute labs are doing it wrong right now. They're not getting clearances, proving their dogs can hunt/compete/perform, and many don't do genetic testing. Until they do, performance lab owners aren't going to take them seriously. But, if what you said is true about competition lab owners refusing to breed to dogs with dilutions, then how will the dilutes ever be able to be bred up to breed standard? I mean, is the entire point is to ostracize and exclude them from our sport simply because it's new? What if that was done with the yellows or the chocolates? How many good dogs wouldn't have existed if they were automatically excluded from the gene pool when they were first introduced? And why was there never an issue with reds? We call them yellow but they're red and since you can pass that red on from parent to offspring, there's gotta be an underlying gene responsible. Where was the uproar over them being crossed with something else to produce red? You're telling me FC AFC CAFC Money Talks II shouldn't be bred because he's red? Or GRHRCH Washita's One Hot Tamale MH since she's red? They're not registerable as red so they shouldn't have been kept or run or trained right? According to some posters on here, they're lying about his registration since they don't fit the LRC definition of a lab. 

You said the point of your post was to get credibility. I can give an opinion based on almost a decade of academic study in the field of genetics on the viability of the gene existing within the breed prior to it being brought out. I can argue that EIC was only recently brought out in labrador retrievers but we aren't screaming that it was the result of crossing other dogs into the lab populations. You can accept a genetic disease but not a color? I find that hypocritical. But now you're saying that we, as a community, will not help the breeders improve the dilutes and yet we still expect them to be able to prove to us that their dogs are equal to field bred labs? It's a catch 22 and there's no winning for them. I think the dilutes will have to be bred up to improve the quality of the animals and I think as competition lab owners, we shouldn't be do narrow minded that we would prevent the breeders out there who would want to do improve their animals from being able to do it. We shouldn't refuse to breed to a dog because of color and we shouldn't lump everyone who breeds dilutes into the category of puppy mills. I know plenty of show labs that I wouldn't own if they were given to me. Most of them are only good for the show ring and as pets. I'm not going to call their owners puppy mills if they choose to breed them because they breed for looks and not necessarily performance. They might look like a lab and act like a lab and still refuse to retrieve or get in the water.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Txcutter2 said:


> In my time working as a horse breeder there were certainly clients who had horses they bred to our studs that did not enhance the breed. Whether the mares were poorly put together or had issues with the feet and legs, it was color they were after.


*Why would they even consider breeding a poor quality mare? No responsible stallion owner should breed a mare just because someone shows up with a uterus on four legs and a checkbook. The stallion owner shares responsibility for what their sire puts on the ground too, and breeding a poor quality mare is not a wise choice. I can tell you I turned down mares fairly often...when your sire's reputation is on the line, and the first thing anyone looking at a foal asks is "Who's the sire", it pays to be responsible about where that semen ends up.
*



Txcutter2 said:


> You said the point of your post was to get credibility. I can give an opinion based on almost a decade of academic study in the field of genetics on the viability of the gene existing within the breed prior to it being brought out. I can argue that EIC was only recently brought out in labrador retrievers but we aren't screaming that it was the result of crossing other dogs into the lab populations. You can accept a genetic disease but not a color? I find that hypocritical.


*First, there is a big difference between a disease and a color. Apples and oranges, so to speak. 

Second, where have I ...or anyone else....ever said that I accept a disease (EIC)? None of us want EIC, which is why we test, and breed so no puppies will be born with the possibility of being affected. The goal with EIC or DM or PRA, etc. is to breed so the gene never expresses and the disease never affects a dog. 

That's the exact opposite of breeding specifically FOR a recessive gene to express, like breeding for a coat color such as silver.*




Txcutter2 said:


> But now you're saying that we, as a community, will not help the breeders improve the dilutes and yet we still expect them to be able to prove to us that their dogs are equal to field bred labs?


*Please don't try to put words in my mouth that I have never said.* 




Txcutter2 said:


> It's a catch 21 and there's no winning for them. I think the dilutes will have to be bred up to improve the quality of the animals and I think as competition lab owners, we shouldn't be do narrow minded that we would prevent the breeders out there who would want to do improve their animals from being able to do it. We shouldn't refuse to breed to a dog because of color and we shouldn't lump everyone who breeds dilutes into the category of puppy mills. I know plenty of show labs that I wouldn't own if they were given to me. Most of them are only good for the show ring and as pets. I'm not going to call their owners puppy mills if they choose to breed them because they breed for looks and not necessarily performance. They might look like a lab and act like a lab and still refuse to retrieve or get in the water.


*It is definitely a catch 22. Mostly because color came long before quality and the dogs were bred willy-nilly just for color and to make money, and it's an uphill struggle to add quality. Going back to what I said earlier about being selective in what a stallion breeds, the same should hold true for dogs. Lab breeders look at the breed standard for acceptable colors, and silver, charcoal, etc. are disqualifications in the breed ring and the LRC makes a point of saying they do not recognize those colors. I would think a silver breeder would be hard pressed to find an owner with an FC-AFC dog willing to breed a silver bitch. The refusal may not be just due to color...rather to overall quality, lack of pedigree, structure, etc. 

My next question is this: If the gene is really there (which it well may be), why doesn't it ever show up in the competition lines? 
*


----------



## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Breck, you nailed it! 



Breck said:


> TxCutter2
> You're so full of it your eyes are Brown.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

> Why would they even consider breeding a poor quality mare? No responsible stallion owner should breed a mare just because someone shows up with a uterus on four legs and a checkbook. The stallion owner shares responsibility for what their sire puts on the ground too, and breeding a poor quality mare is not a wise choice. I can tell you I turned down mares fairly often...when your sire's reputation is on the line, and the first thing anyone looking at a foal asks is "Who's the sire", it pays to be responsible about where that semen ends up.


 I was just the manager and did not make decisions on who was bred. But I agree, the stallion owner has a responsibility, especially when it comes to improving the breed.



> First, there is a big difference between a disease and a color. Apples and oranges, so to speak. .....That's the exact opposite of breeding specifically FOR a recessive gene to express, like breeding for a coat color such as silver.


 Not at all apple to oranges, they are both genes. You're asking how a gene recently ended up within a breed and I pointed out that another gene recently ended up in the breed and the same issues weren't raised as to how it got there. It was simply accepted that it was part of the genome that showed up. You talk about how bad it is to breed specifically FOR a recessive gene to express but I'm pretty sure that's EXACTLY what we do when we try to produce yellow or chocolate labs. 



> It is definitely a catch 22. Mostly because color came long before quality and the dogs were bred willy-nilly just for color and to make money, and it's an uphill struggle to add quality. Going back to what I said earlier about being selective in what a stallion breeds, the same should hold true for dogs. Lab breeders look at the breed standard for acceptable colors, and silver, charcoal, etc. are disqualifications in the breed ring and the LRC makes a point of saying they do not recognize those colors. I would think a silver breeder would be hard pressed to find an owner with an FC-AFC dog willing to breed a silver bitch. The refusal may not be just due to color...rather to overall quality, lack of pedigree, structure, etc.


 First, you never answered my question about reds, since they are not accepted colors either. Second, I already addressed that most of the competition dogs ARE NOT BREED STANDARD, except in color, except for the exceptions in color. Seems a pretty arbitrary issue for a breeder to look at. "Gee, we have a dog that's a FC AFC CAFC but he's a fox red and doesn't match the breed standard so we just won't breed him." Yeah, that's not the conversation that was had. I'm pretty sure that color *that is NOT breed standard* is why Copper has a $2500 stud fee. We are not selecting competition dogs for their show ring prospects, we are selecting them for their trainability, endurance, nickability, desire to retrieve, etc. 

You act like breeding up would really be that hard to do. If you have a silver pup whose parents have all of their clearances and this pup had desire to retrieve and proved it out, let's say getting HRCH and MH titles, there's not a whole lot of "breeding up" that you would even have to do. You would want to breed said dog to better pedigrees because you should always try to breed up and also increase the number of titled dogs in the pedigree of the puppy. And saying that lack of pedigree is a reason to disqualify a dog from being bred, I think we need to evaluate 2xNAFC 2xCNAFC FC CFC Ebonstar Lean Mac himself. Had the Frauscher's written off the bitch because of her lack of pedigree, look at what would have been missed. She had no titles, her parents had no titles, and only two of her grandparents had titles. If she hadn't have been given a chance, Lean Mac would never have been born. 



> My next question is this: If the gene is really there (which it well may be), why doesn't it ever show up in the competition lines?


I'll ask you the same thing, why didn't dilutes show up in thoroughbred racehorses earlier? The Jockey Club has been around since 1894 and yet, didn't register a single dilute until 90 years later. This proves registries are infallible right? I'm pretty sure I don't consider the LRC the end-all-be-all of the labrador world, especially because most of our dogs wouldn't be bred if it were up to them because physically, they aren't breed standard. Our dogs would never win in the show ring being judged against what LRC says a lab should look like. 

The original carrier may not have been used as a competition dog. Look at the competition dogs out there and the same names keep coming up, over and over again. Why? We breed dogs that have long-standing competition lines in the pedigrees. How many unique bloodlines do you think are represented in all of the competition dogs out there today? Out of all of the labs in the world (since we do import labs to and from other countries), the dogs we breed to don't necessarily represent the majority of the lab population, therefore don't represent the entire genetic population of animals from which the gene may have originated.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

windycanyon said:


> Breck, you nailed it!


What's Breck right about Windy? That having an advanced degree in genetics makes me "full of it" simply because I'm offering a different opinion? Way to keep it classy.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

"First, you never answered my question about reds, since they are not accepted colors either. Second, I already addressed that most of the competition dogs ARE NOT BREED STANDARD, except in color, except for the exceptions in color. Seems a pretty arbitrary issue for a breeder to look at. "Gee, we have a dog that's a FC AFC CAFC but he's a fox red and doesn't match the breed standard so we just won't breed him." Yeah, that's not the conversation that was had. I'm pretty sure that color *that is NOT breed standard* is why Copper has a $2500 stud fee. We are not selecting competition dogs for their show ring prospects, we are selecting them for their trainability, endurance, nickability, desire to retrieve, etc."

Obviously you seem to "know" more about horses than you do Labrador Retrievers. If you are going to consider breeding them, no matter the color- than maybe you should do some research on the breed and its Standard. Once you do so, you will learn that the "fox red" is actually a "yellow", and the first accepted yellows in the breed were dark, many were in fact "red". 

If you want to start breeding dilutes, fine. No one can stop you. Just don't expect the stewards of the breed to lower their standards to help you with your goals, since the dilutes are a disqualification and many consider them an abomination to the breed. You say that you want things NOW and do not want to wait 4-5 years to produce what you want, that is the same mindset that most color breeders have, which is why they will sacrifice anything to produce that color even to the detriment of the breed. 

If you truly "love" the silver color and want a well built, working performance dog, then look into getting an ash colored chessie- but don't go trying to fit a square peg in a round hole just to please yourself.


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

> Obviously you seem to "know" more about horses than you do Labrador Retrievers. If you are going to consider breeding them, no matter the color- than maybe you should do some research on the breed and its Standard. Once you do so, you will learn that the "fox red" is actually a "yellow", and the first accepted yellows in the breed were dark, many were in fact "red".


 There's an underlying genetic reason for the red to show up on a yellow. Red is considered yellow just like silver is considered chocolate. Just because we don't have the "red" gene identified, we know it's there otherwise it wouldn't be passed down from parents. 



> If you want to start breeding dilutes, fine. No one can stop you. Just don't expect the stewards of the breed to lower their standards to help you with your goals, since the dilutes are a disqualification and many consider them an abomination to the breed. You say that you want things NOW and do not want to wait 4-5 years to produce what you want, that is the same mindset that most color breeders have, which is why they will sacrifice anything to produce that color even to the detriment of the breed.


 I never said I would sacrifice anything in terms of the breed if I were to breed silvers. You're right, I would love to have high quality dilute labs available right now. But that's not the way the world works and I wouldn't cut corners to do that. When I was younger I showed steers in 4-H and FFA. I grew up on a farm and wanted to improve the cattle on our farm. So I went to school and spent the next decade of my life learning all about breeding animals: AI, pedigree analysis, quantitative genetics, heritability analysis, epigenetics, reproductive physiology and more. Now, book learning does not substitute for experience. But it does remove the level of ignorance that so many people have when it comes to what is or is not natural when it comes to genetics. When you don't understand something you label it as an abomination, but that's been the case with science since the dawn of time so it doesn't really surprise me that it would still happen today. Do I know more about breeding dogs that you do? Maybe, maybe not. I haven't been breeding dogs that long in the broad scheme of things. But I've worked on the human genome project and I've created cloned and transgenic animals for research, so I would venture to say that when it comes to genetics, I certainly have an understanding of the complexity of what it takes to breed an animal and that I also have the patience to produce, should I choose to, a high quality dilute lab line. 



> If you truly "love" the silver color and want a well built, working performance dog, then look into getting an ash colored chessie- but don't go trying to fit a square peg in a round hole just to please yourself.


 I don't like Chessie's.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Txcutter2 said:


> Not at all apple to oranges, they are both genes. You're asking how a gene recently ended up within a breed and I pointed out that another gene recently ended up in the breed and the same issues weren't raised as to how it got there. It was simply accepted that it was part of the genome that showed up. You talk about how bad it is to breed specifically FOR a recessive gene to express but I'm pretty sure that's EXACTLY what we do when we try to produce yellow or chocolate labs.


Yes, they are both genes. One is for a disease we are working to eliminate...the other, the gray color, is promoted and selected for, exclusive of other attributes. That makes your comparison not make any sense. And any breeder of yellows or chocolates that is breeding simply based on coat color rather than the overall quality of the dog is just as wrong. The only difference is that at least their colors are accepted.

As for yellows and chocolates...there are some people breeding just for color, and they are not well thought of either. Chocolates more so than yellows, but it's done in both. The difference is that there are also FC-AFCs and CH in those colors, because the genetics for that talent level are also available. 





Txcutter2 said:


> First, you never answered my question about reds, since they are not accepted colors either.


No need to answer that if you've read the breed standard, where they clearly are accepted. To save you the time of actually looking it up, here is the section on coat colors: 

_"__The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. *Black* - Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. *Yellow* - Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. *Chocolate* - Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification."_




Txcutter2 said:


> Second, I already addressed that most of the competition dogs ARE NOT BREED STANDARD, except in color, except for the exceptions in color. Seems a pretty arbitrary issue for a breeder to look at. "Gee, we have a dog that's a FC AFC CAFC but he's a fox red and doesn't match the breed standard so we just won't breed him." Yeah, that's not the conversation that was had. I'm pretty sure that color *that is NOT breed standard* is why Copper has a $2500 stud fee. We are not selecting competition dogs for their show ring prospects, we are selecting them for their trainability, endurance, nickability, desire to retrieve, etc.


I don't even know where to begin with most of that stuff....it is full of so much misinformation that it's really not worth bothering with. Breed standards are a guideline, showing what the structure of the ideal, perfect Labrador would look like. Sure, there are field bred dogs that are too extreme, just like there are show bred dogs that are also far, far from the standard. The closest thing to the standard will be found in the moderate dogs in both venues.

And breeding for "nickability"?? Pour me one of whatever you're drinking.  You've missed the boat totally on what you think field folks are breeding for. 



Txcutter2 said:


> You act like breeding up would really be that hard to do. If you have a silver pup whose parents have all of their clearances and this pup had desire to retrieve and proved it out, let's say getting HRCH and MH titles, there's not a whole lot of "breeding up" that you would even have to do. You would want to breed said dog to better pedigrees because you should always try to breed up and also increase the number of titled dogs in the pedigree of the puppy. And saying that lack of pedigree is a reason to disqualify a dog from being bred, I think we need to evaluate 2xNAFC 2xCNAFC FC CFC Ebonstar Lean Mac himself. Had the Frauscher's written off the bitch because of her lack of pedigree, look at what would have been missed. She had no titles, her parents had no titles, and only two of her grandparents had titles. If she hadn't have been given a chance, Lean Mac would never have been born.


Lean Mac's dam was QAA (that's Qualified All-Age in field trials), as were both her sire and dam. That's more than acceptable talent to be bred. It's not like she was some backyard dog...she had field trial placements, her parents did as well. Lack of pedigree does not mean lack of titles. It means lack of quality dogs...which was certainly not a problem with Lean Mac's dam.

Breeding up will be hard to do, because of the lack af availability of FC-AFC-CH etc. dogs willing to participate. To the few out there who are really trying, keep at it...but if there are 100 breeders trying to produce gray Labs and 2 are trying to breed "up" and the other 98 are breeding for color=money, it's pretty hard to gain credibility.




Txcutter2 said:


> I'll ask you the same thing, why didn't dilutes show up in thoroughbred racehorses earlier? The Jockey Club has been around since 1894 and yet, didn't register a single dilute until 90 years later. This proves registries are infallible right? I'm pretty sure I don't consider the LRC the end-all-be-all of the labrador world, especially because most of our dogs wouldn't be bred if it were up to them because physically, they aren't breed standard. Our dogs would never win in the show ring being judged against what LRC says a lab should look like.


I'd say there's a good possibility of another breed in the woodpile somewhere, if dilutes just showed up in recent history. Regardless, if anybody is breeding dilutes in TBs just for the color, they will go downhill fast. 

As for the LRC, your words say you really don't know much about it, its history, or the people on board. A good portion of the show dogs don't look like the standard either...they win because of judges who reward extremes.



Txcutter2 said:


> The original carrier may not have been used as a competition dog. Look at the competition dogs out there and the same names keep coming up, over and over again. Why? We breed dogs that have long-standing competition lines in the pedigrees. How many unique bloodlines do you think are represented in all of the competition dogs out there today? Out of all of the labs in the world (since we do import labs to and from other countries), the dogs we breed to don't necessarily represent the majority of the lab population, therefore don't represent the entire genetic population of animals from which the gene may have originated.


And that makes breeding for a recessive just because of color right? 

It's no different than horses. Something comes along that looks different, a few people think it looks neat, and the next thing you know, that one trait is being selcted for to the detriment of stuff like soundness, conformation, etc. Look at the TB....shelly, thin walled hooves are there in many runners because breeding based on speed meant things like good feet were ignored and not selected for. 

To take the opposite example in horses, look at the Morgan breed. One sire....talented, versatile, sound and prolific...founded a dynasty. How? Because he had the overall quality to do it, and color wasn't a factor. 

Color should not matter one bit if the talent is there. It's far easier to breed for color than it is to breed for talent.


----------



## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Can someone post pics of any silver AFC Lab? I'm just curious. I also have a degree in biology, but not genetics. Much of what TX is saying is scientifically accurate. However, breeding specifically for a certain gene isn't the only issue. The color specific gene isn't what has so many people worried. Most people being opposed to breeding silver labs has little to nothing to do with the actual color of the animal, and more to do with the "pudding" if you will. Ya know, "the proof is in the pudding"?? It's not the silver color that people oppose, it's the demonstrative lack of genetic quality in silver labs. And it does dilute the breed over time. Labradors are working retrievers first and foremost. Yellows and chocolates have earned their place at the table by being proven over and over and over again. When will silver breeders enter the hemisphere of proving the breeding of their WORKING RETRIEVERS, instead of breeding for a color?

The color specific gene isn't the problem. It's all the other issues silver labs seem to consistently have.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Txcutter2 said:


> I don't like Chessie's.


That's the best news I've heard all day.


----------



## Willow SGD (Nov 8, 2010)

Txcutter2 said:


> I can argue that EIC was only recently brought out in labrador retrievers but we aren't screaming that it was the result of crossing other dogs into the lab populations. You can accept a genetic disease but not a color? I find that hypocritical.


Just a comment and then a question. I think I read there is 100 plus known or highly suspect genetic disorders in Labradors, and I think we can genetically test for just a few, could be wrong. We inspect for phenotypes for some, but really don't know if they are carriers or affected. When we know EIC is something we certainly don't want in any dog, responsible breeders screen for it and offer health clearances. Didn't Sharon just ask for some specific breeders to speak up and state they were as concerned for the dogs health? (I know she also stated some field work credentials, but I think we know that is out the window as the Labrador is filling all kinds of roles and not just field work (wish it were different). It may be relevant if the breeder is advertising field work qualities).


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Sharon Potter said:


> That's the best news I've heard all day.


Me too Sharon! God help us if she liked Chessies and thought it fun to make a black one!


----------



## Txcutter2 (Feb 17, 2009)

If you refer back to most of my posts, I clearly state there is a lack of proven performance in silvers. There's 1 MH, a few JH or SHR. This does not prove that they are quality retrievers. This is the fault of the silver producers. They are marketing the color and not the lab. I had a breeder of silvers tell me he doesn't certify his dogs because he doesn't feel the need to. That he's produced 125 pups and his dogs are fine. Well, if you sell the pups for $1000 and you've sold 125, with $125,000 you should have $300 laying around to get your CERFs and OFAs done. Do I respect breeders who are simply breeding for color? No. Has it happened with yellows and chocolates? Yup. Our last litter (black) was out of an HRCH (out of FC AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger) and an FC AFC with 37 FC AFCs in a 5 gen pedigree so I feel like we produce high quality animals that are selected for quality. I do not believe in selecting for a single trait, as I've said repeatedly. 

Do I think that silver labs are going away anytime soon? Nope. It's not a fad. You may not like it but these dogs are being registered as labs and have been since they showed up 30 years ago. Does this mean that there wasn't a Weimerimer bred in there 30-40 years ago? Sure, it could have happened. It's the easiest explanation for the color. However, the point I originally made, was that it's not the only explanation. And the simple fact is, neither side can prove they're right. 

I think there is a future in competition for dilute labs. Whether the color would disqualify them in a show ring doesn't apply in a hunt test. Do I think it would be better for the breed in general to have less animosity towards silvers? Yes. I think that, as many of you have said, having backyard breeders in control of producing such a large quantity of labs, it is detrimental to the entire breed. But instead of just 2 people out of 100 trying to work towards being more responsible, why not increase it to 10, then 30, etc. You do that by working with them and having them get involved with retriever clubs, we don't do it by alienating them from the start. Not everyone is going to do what I did and get multiple degree to breed dogs. I don't think every silver breeder is intentionally producing dogs that don't meet our standards. I think a lot of them probably don't know what we know, which may have been learned in school or from other trainers and breeders and experience. We need to be the positive example. If there aren't any responsible breeders out there, people have no where else to turn but the backyard breeders. We have been genetically engineering dogs through selective breeding for thousands of years. We breed them to be what we want them to be. We make breeds and then create variations within those breeds (Though this isn't always in the best interest of the animal as evidenced by the health problems in a lot of the micro breeds), and the dilution is becoming a variation within labs. 

Now, the question that I also have is if there is such animosity towards dilutes, is that healthy for the sport. How many of these breeders or silver owners would participate in hunt tests or field trials if we didn't make them feel so bad about their dog? I'd argue that people who have these dogs love them just as much as we love our dogs. They take them hunting and they play with their children and they're a part of their families. If their dog isn't accepted, or if they aren't accepted because, heaven forbid, they bought a silver lab, are they going to want to be involved in retriever clubs or participate with their dog if we refer to their dog as an abomination? What is the ultimate goal? Not liking silvers isn't going to make them go away.


----------



## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Txcutter2 said:


> Now, the question that I also have is if there is such animosity towards dilutes, is that healthy for the sport.


There is no animosity towards the dog. It's towards the breeders of these dogs. They are shysters, foisting off poorly bred dogs for enormous amounts money purely because of color.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Txcutter2 said:


> How many of these breeders or silver owners would participate in hunt tests or field trials if we didn't make them feel so bad about their dog? I'd argue that people who have these dogs love them just as much as we love our dogs. They take them hunting and they play with their children and they're a part of their families. If their dog isn't accepted, or if they aren't accepted because, heaven forbid, they bought a silver lab, are they going to want to be involved in retriever clubs or participate with their dog if we refer to their dog as an abomination? What is the ultimate goal? Not liking silvers isn't going to make them go away.


My advice is they toughen up. ;-) Make it a mission to demonstrate.

I got all kinds of gamesmanship running my late Chocolate. Of course explaining to the detractors that Black is dark chocolate and Yellow is light chocolate.

Be it as it may - the Choco in 5 gens at least had 7 FC/AFC's and 17 MH dogs in the pedigree. Some non-titled dogs from the likes of Haverhill.

The Yellow now in 5 gens was built on 46 FC/AFC's 11 in the last 3 gens. Mixed in with QAA dogs.

Point being - breed up and tough it out. It's pretty tough to compare Chocolates and Yellows to the opportunity you feel Silver represents. 

In other words - expect to catch hell...if you don't like it - prove otherwise. that begins with selected breeding as we all know.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Txcutter2 said:


> If you refer back to most of my posts, I clearly state there is a lack of proven performance in silvers. There's 1 MH, a few JH or SHR. This does not prove that they are quality retrievers. This is the fault of the silver producers. They are marketing the color and not the lab. I had a breeder of silvers tell me he doesn't certify his dogs because he doesn't feel the need to. That he's produced 125 pups and his dogs are fine. Well, if you sell the pups for $1000 and you've sold 125, with $125,000 you should have $300 laying around to get your CERFs and OFAs done. Do I respect breeders who are simply breeding for color? No. Has it happened with yellows and chocolates? Yup. Our last litter (black) was out of an HRCH (out of FC AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger) and an FC AFC with 37 FC AFCs in a 5 gen pedigree so I feel like we produce high quality animals that are selected for quality. I do not believe in selecting for a single trait, as I've said repeatedly.
> 
> Now, the question that I also have is if there is such animosity towards dilutes, is that healthy for the sport. How many of these breeders or silver owners would participate in hunt tests or field trials if we didn't make them feel so bad about their dog? I'd argue that people who have these dogs love them just as much as we love our dogs. They take them hunting and they play with their children and they're a part of their families. If their dog isn't accepted, or if they aren't accepted because, heaven forbid, they bought a silver lab, are they going to want to be involved in retriever clubs or participate with their dog if we refer to their dog as an abomination? What is the ultimate goal? Not liking silvers isn't going to make them go away.


Now you're talking.  To clarify: *It's not the color that the animosity is towards as much as it is the indiscriminate breeding for ridiculous amounts of money for poor quality animals with no health clearances.* If "silver" had started with any semblance of responsibility or quality, I doubt we'd be having these discussions. I have a friend with a gray Lab, and he's done a great job training it, and it's a nice gun dog. And I judged one last weekend that did a nice job. 

Unfortunately, while 2 may be doing it right, 98 are in it because they can sucker the uneducated public into buying a "dog of a different color". 

And no, the "in it for the money" breeders won't change their minds, nor will they spend any money on clearances because the only reason they are in it is for the money. They rank right up there with the Labradoodle folks, who sell pups for double what a nice Lab will go for, with promises of hypoallergenic qualities, hunting ability and eventual AKC recognition, all of which are lies.

My question to you: How do you propose to change the 98% who are simply in it for the money and care more about whether the check clears than about raising sound, healthy dogs that are the equal of the recognized colors?


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

It's good you've learned the genetics involved with breeding and have an excellent understanding of animal husbandry. Now go get with a top Field Trial Pro, watch and train a couple hundred dogs and you'll probably have a better understanding of how and why "REAL WORLD" breeding decisions are made. 

Nobody calls their vet to get information on which stud dog is going to better fit a top quality bitch. We're all calling the person who trained the dog. Years of research, years of showing cattle, years of classroom study are not taken into the equation of how to make a better dog. Unless, your possibly breeding for a trait such as color.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

What I'd love to see is for genetic research to focus on finding the gene that makes a dog a great marker. Find that one, and we'd have something!


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> What I'd love to see is for genetic research to focus on finding the gene that makes a dog a great marker. Find that one, and we'd have something!


Certain breeders seem to understand by training and watching dogs which ones have it. They also seem to know which dog matches up best. I think that just comes from years of experience and having been hands on with lots and lots of dogs. With that all being said, keeping a level of sanity when making breeding decisions doesn't seem to often be a good people trait. People are kennel blind and breed for sentimental reasons and start hoping rather than looking at what should be done. Yet, that is a whole different discussion.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

What is "nickability" and how do you identify that trait? 
Also, why in the world would you want spend all the effort involved in making the silver colored dogs part of an already wildly popular (#1 by a long shot) breed if NOT for the dollar value of having something unique? I don't think most horse owners interested in getting a stakes winner care one whit about the Jockey Club accepting palominos into the registry. The only one that will value that will be a park hack rider that wants to stand out. If you want to win a race, you go for the proven pedigree. If you want a FT or HT dog, you do the same. I don't "hate" silvers. Just never saw one that I would own, and do not know why a thing should be done "just because you can". Go design your own breed, set the standards, breed true to those standards, and see if you are successful in creating a market for it.


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

The only thing that comes to my mind is a dog that can really take pressure.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Oh, that takes it to another whole subject. I thought it somehow referred to breeding "nicks" like the horse people look for. Certain lines that produce well with other specific lines. Too deep for me.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm looking for the puppy breath gene.


----------



## Jared White (Jan 25, 2008)

I 2nd the puppy breath gene


----------



## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

What about the "Poop-eating" trait in Goldens?
I'd love to corner the market in that. I'd make a million dollars "if" I could isolate that trait.
Sorry Folks. This thread needed to lighten up a bit. 
Long day at work too 
Sue


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Sue Kiefer said:


> What about the "Poop-eating" trait in Goldens?
> I'd love to corner the market in that. I'd make a million dollars "if" I could isolate that trait.
> Sorry Folks. This thread needed to lighten up a bit.
> Long day at work too
> Sue


I thought rolling on ducks was the only genetic problem with goldens?


----------



## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Another "designer" dog
By LRC Directors - Tuesday July 17, 2012. 

BUYER BEWARE! 

TRUE LABRADOR RETRIEVERS ARE BLACK, YELLOW, AND CHOCOLATE ONLY!

The Issue of the Silver Labrador

Frances O Smith, DVM, PhD Chair, Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. Genetics Committee

It is the opinion of the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc., the AKC parent club for the breed, that a silver Labrador is not a purebred Labrador retriever. The pet owning public is being duped into believing that animals with this dilute coat color are desirable, purebred and rare and, therefore, warrant special notoriety or a premium purchase price.

Over the past few years a limited number of breeders have advertised and sold dogs they represent to be purebred Labrador Retrievers with a dilute or gray coat color—hence the term “silver labs.” The AKC has accepted some of these “silver labs” for registration. Apparently, the rationale for this decision is that the silver coat color is a shade of chocolate. Interestingly, the original breeders of “silver” Labradors were also involved in the Weimaraner breed.

Although we cannot conclusively prove that the silver Labrador is a product of crossbreeding the Weimaraner to a Labrador, there is good evidence in scientific literature indicating that the Labrador has never been identified as carrying the dilute gene dd. The Weimaraner is the only known breed in which the universality of dd is a characteristic. 

From the website for Vetgen: 

The D locus is the primary locus associated with diluted pigment, which results in coats that would otherwise be black or brown instead showing up as gray or blue, in the case of black, and pale brown in the case of brown. The melanophilin gene has recently been shown to be responsible, but not all of the dilute causing mutations have been identified yet.

Recognized coat colors for purebred Labradors are black, yellow and chocolate. No shadings of coat color are recognized for black or chocolate Labradors in either the Labrador Standard or the current research into genetic coat colors. The shadings recognized in yellow Labrador Retrievers do not depend on the presence of the dilute gene dd, but are modifiers acting on the ee gene. The identified coat color genes in the Labrador include:




A

B

C

D

E

g

in

s

i


|

|

|



|



|






a

b

c



e



t






The omission of “d,” and thus the impossibility of a dd dilute gene resulting from a pure Labrador breeding, is certainly persuasive evidence that the silver Labrador is not a purebred.

It's a bit of a problem when it comes to breeding because recessive traits, such as [recessives] and dilution, can remain hidden in lines for many generations, then suddenly crop up when a dog carrying the trait is bred to another with it (if the gene is very rare in the breed then it can be a long time until this happens, if it ever does). This is why breedings sometimes throw complete surprises, like silver (blue) Labrador puppies in a breed, which, to all intents and purposes, contains no silver at all. That one lone recessive silver gene (d, on the D locus) has been passed down from generation to generation, completely unknown to the breeders, until finally it's met another one. It might have come from a cross-breeding with another breed many years ago, which doesn't show up on the pedigrees and no longer has any effect on the look of the dog (so all the dogs in the line look exactly like normal Labradors, not a crossbred), but they still carry one gene left over from the cross-breeding). Such rare recessive traits can be impossible to eradicate from a breed, simply because you can't tell which dogs carry them. However, in recent years, genetic testing has helped to identify the carriers.


----------



## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

This is a little bit of trivia re a comment made about competitive Labs not meeting the breed standard. At the National Amateur, after the Saturday meeting, owners of ten qualified for the Natl Amat Labs agreed to have their Labs gone over by three exceedingly qualified Labrador conformation judges. All ten of these Labs passed, including two NAFCs, father and son. The LRC offers a Conformation Certificate to Labs certifying that their conformation meets the breed standards when certified For more info on this go to www.thelabradorclub.com. This does not mean they could enter conformation competition and necessarily expect to win, but it does mean their conformation is what is required by the standard.

The GRCA has the same Conformation Certificate for Goldens, the CCA, which states that a Golden meets the breed standard and many field Goldens and performance Goldens apply to be judged. For information on this go to www.grca.org. 

Both the Goldens and the Labs often include a field dog in their judging seminars so that judges can go over a Lab/Golden in hard working condition who might not necessarily look like the dogs currently seen in the conformation ring but who does meet the standard.

The Chessies are the best of all as they still have Dual Champions.

I do have one question re the esoteric Labs colors such as silver, charcoal, etc. Why do they advertise them as silver, yet in order to register them they with the AKC they have to falsify the color on the registration forms? Doesn't someone who pays big bucks for an exotic silver colored pup ever question why they cannot be registered as silver and the only way they can get a registration number is to register them as chocolates.

Glenda


----------



## fjwrt (Aug 29, 2008)

in Richard Wolters book, "The labrador retriever: the history.. the people" he documents many colors and patterns that were in the breed prior to "AKC" standards being written,so although I am not a big fan of the "silver" Lab, I cannot say it is an impossibility, just as there are many shades of "Yellow" in the breed, from the pale almost white, to the "red", there could be shades of chocolate


----------



## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

fjwrt said:


> in Richard Wolters book, "The labrador retriever: the history.. the people" he documents many colors and patterns that were in the breed prior to "AKC" standards being written,so although I am not a big fan of the "silver" Lab, I cannot say it is an impossibility, just as there are many shades of "Yellow" in the breed, from the pale almost white, to the "red", there could be shades of chocolate


I don't see grey/sliver being a shade of chocolate.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

metalone67 said:


> I don't see grey/sliver being a shade of chocolate.


Me either. Sure looks like a black issue. ;-)


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Bottom line: it really doesn't matter if the dilution gene was fraudulently introduced via crossbreeding or if it lurked there for generations leftover from some of the breeds behind the early Labradors. I would imagine those dogs crossed with the St. Johns water dogs had many traits, both dominant and recessive, that were selectively bred out/culled _*including the dilution gene*_. So it's just plain arrogant for people to breed it back in against the parent club's stated objection, no matter where it came from.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Glenda Brown said:


> I do have one question re the esoteric Labs colors such as silver, charcoal, etc. Why do they advertise them as silver, yet in order to register them they with the AKC they have to falsify the color on the registration forms? Doesn't someone who pays big bucks for an exotic silver colored pup ever question why they cannot be registered as silver and the only way they can get a registration number is to register them as chocolates.
> 
> Glenda


 Most of the people that buy them, don't know the difference between AKC and American Pet Dog Registry (or any of the others that will register anything as a purebred as long as a fee is paid) when they get their pup's "papers" and a large # of them, probably most, aren't AKC registered.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

metalone67 said:


> I don't see grey/sliver being a shade of chocolate.


It's not. Chocolate is a "b' allele, while gray/blue is a "d" allele.


----------



## griff68w (Jul 9, 2013)

has anyone ever seen one work? i have seen a few pups over the years but never a trained hunter.


----------



## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

griff68w said:


> has anyone ever seen one work? i have seen a few pups over the years but never a trained hunter.


Yes

I know one and I took the pics, however I can not comment either way, not my place to do so.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I've seen several. One belongs to a friend, and he's done a very nice job training it and it looks like a Lab. I judged another last weekend, and it did a good job and earned a pass. There are some capable gun dogs out there. 

I've seen others that had no desire to retrieve and couldn't find a bird in their feed pan. There's a pretty wide range. And when I lived elsewhere, I was only a few miles from the guy who started the whole kerfluffle (that's a whole 'nother story)...and that whole area was peppered with his dogs, very few of which looked like Labradors or even Lab crosses. I got into trouble once when I complimented a store owner on her dog that hung around in the store...I said it was a nice dog and how unusual to see a Weimaraner without a docked tail (the dog looked exactly like a Weim, down to the extremely deep chest and tuck-up, houndy ears, light yellow eyes, narrow head and lean body). She shot me a very dirty look and told me it was a rare silver Lab. I learned to just say "what a sweet dog" whenever I saw one after that.

So, to summarize, there are some capable gun dogs within that color.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

To responsibly get the d gene into performance stock would take many years and many generations of very selective and very close line breeding and one would not see the silver coloration for many generations. Wether there from the start or reintroduced the recessive d is not in performance stock. One could assume that if it was there originally the Labrador breed founders went through pains to fix a dominate D gene just as they fixed a dominate K (solid coloration) The other colors while perhaps rare were represented in several different lines we don't see that with silver. So say you had a nice performing lab who had the distinction of being silver, you being a performance person breed it to the best performance match out there, half the pups carry d, those pups get bred to more performance dogs 1/4 carry it. Go three generation and think about a very close line breeding you might see the silver color. Still those pups would need to be out crossed, you loose the color again for a few generations. It would take a lifetime of work, and record keeping, all put into breeding a disqualifying trait, on a gene the breed has pushed to eliminate. Seems like there's are other more marketable traits to work towards, if one wants to leave a legacy. And yet If I ever found a truly superior performance lab that happened to be silver, I might breed it. Truly superior animals should not be eliminated from breeding stock because of one unfortunate gene mutation. Still it would have to be a very fine animal in all other respects, and I wouldn't be working toward expressing a breed disqualification either.


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

I want to take the time to comment on this thread. Sharky indeed failed his prelims because our vet had a horrible busy day and thought that just because it was his prelims that she could hurry and it would not matter sad to say it does and did. Sharky has been re ofaed and the results are in and he ofaed GOOD. I take pride in my dogs and am tryin to better the silver labs. Years ago they were imbred alot I will admit that but with time and alot of good breeders we have been able to strengthen the lines and add alot more to them. I want to point out that we ofa our dogs always test for eic and Cnm. There are some amazing silvers that are dock jumpers and also many that are hunt titled out there. As for health issues and short life span that is the biggest fib. A silver charcoal or champagne is no different then any other labs out there. They are a lab the coat color is the only difference same amazing lab that comes in black yellow and chocolate. Our kennel is ack inspected and if they thought there was a problem with silvers charcoals they would have said something last week when there were here.


----------



## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Viking,Kim, Why don't you show pedigrees on your website for your silver "labs" (you do for your yellows)? What testing agency did you use for EIC and CNM and why not reference the test number to verify? Yellow eyes in a lab? I have had labs since the early 1980s and ran GSP before that and was around many continental sporting breeds in NAVHDA.Never saw eyes like that except in a Weimeraner ( no accusations, just noting a fact). Light eyes in a lab is a fault.
I do give you credit for working your dogs.

Jeff


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

I just actually put the yellows up I am in the process of putting them up. I also want to put copies of all the health clearances. We use ddc for eic Cnm and also coat color testing I test all of our so that I know what to expect with different litters. I was told before not to put them up because so many ppl run the silvers down and it will block you from adding new lines and less people sell to you when they know u have silvers. It has made it challenging for us that do want to improve and add great hunting lines to our dogs that others are so closed minded. I have nothing to hide with mine and am very proud of my dogs and care very much for there health and well being weather it's my championed lined yellow or my empty pedigree silver. I've been working hard and in a few years hope to make silvers that have amazing pedigrees to back them. Any questions u guys may have I will gladly answer I just don't like being ridiculed for dogs that I love and am trying to do the right thing with them. It's been hard to find trainers that help train silver to because they don't want to be known for training them


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

What is an AKC kennel inspection? Never heard of this? I didn't know the AKC inspected kennels to make sure a breeding operation wasnt turning out bad colors.


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

http://www.akc.org/about/depts/investigations.cfm


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

Paul Akc doesn't come to inspect color they come out when a kennel has more the 6 litters a year. It's to make sure that all paper work is filled out and breeders are in compliance with rules and regulations. Alot of kennels not just me r Akc inspected its actually i think a good thing they check all dogs are microchipped clean areas again paper work breeding records and litter registrations are done emergency plan is in effect cause of tornato hurricane fire things like that. Akc does randomly come places that breed under 6 litters but it's like the IRS and its a lottery thing.


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I want to take the time to comment on this thread. Sharky indeed failed his prelims because our vet had a horrible busy day and thought that just because it was his prelims that she could hurry and it would not matter sad to say it does and did. Sharky has been re ofaed and the results are in and he ofaed GOOD. I take pride in my dogs and am tryin to better the silver labs. Years ago they were imbred alot I will admit that but with time and alot of good breeders we have been able to strengthen the lines and add alot more to them. I want to point out that we ofa our dogs always test for eic and Cnm. There are some amazing silvers that are dock jumpers and also many that are hunt titled out there. As for health issues and short life span that is the biggest fib. A silver charcoal or champagne is no different then any other labs out there. They are a lab the coat color is the only difference same amazing lab that comes in black yellow and chocolate. Our kennel is ack inspected and if they thought there was a problem with silvers charcoals they would have said something last week when there were here.


Kim(if this is you), here is one of the many reasons you keep getting blow back:*Here at Viking Silver Labs, we breed silver, chocolate, charcoal, black, ivory, and also white labs.* You(and a few others) are trying to make this some sort of mission and pave the way for a "new" Lab that really doesn't improve what we already have and in reality it "dilutes" what has already been built with pretty colors to make "YOU" money. You are not helping to improve the breed as a whole and trying to improve your niche' breed...

PS this is not combative, just thoughts.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Boy, I'm glad I'm not involved in _this_ one! I don't think I'll think I'll post. 

Evan


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Evan said:


> Boy, I'm glad I'm not involved in _this_ one! I don't think I'll think I'll post.
> 
> Evan


You should be gladder you're not hankering for a Silver lab. 1K with limited registration. Ouch! But it's not about the money.


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I just actually put the yellows up I am in the process of putting them up. I also want to put copies of all the health clearances. We use ddc for eic Cnm and also coat color testing I test all of our so that I know what to expect with different litters. I was told before not to put them up because so many ppl run the silvers down and *it will block you from adding new lines and less people sell to you when they know u have silvers*. It has made it challenging for us that do want to improve and add great hunting lines to our dogs that others are so closed minded. I have nothing to hide with mine and am very proud of my dogs and care very much for there health and well being weather it's my championed lined yellow or my empty pedigree silver. I've been working hard and in a few years hope to make silvers that have amazing pedigrees to back them. Any questions u guys may have I will gladly answer I just don't like being ridiculed for dogs that I love and am trying to do the right thing with them. It's been hard to find trainers that help train silver to because they don't want to be known for training them


I bolded this part because it is extremely important. Why??? Because:
1) It is the RIGHT OF THE BREEDER TO REFUSE selling THIER puppies,dogs, or stud service to ANYONE. This could be for ANY reason, including to "silver" breeders/kennels. They have the RIGHT to keep THEIR lines from propagating with yours. 
2) By keeping this "secret", you are being dishonest, untruthful, and underhanded in your business dealings with other breeders. Not someone that I would EVER recommend to anyone looking for a lab pup, no matter the color. 
3) Who ever said that breeding dogs is easy? What makes you think that any/everyone should help you to achieve YOUR PERSONAL goals?
4) Ethical breeders do not go out of their way to breed, promote, market KNOWN mismarks, faults, defects, anomalies, etc.. which goes AGAINST everything that the Breed Standard stands for and recognizes, no matter the stance or ineffective policies of AKC or other breed registries.


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Evan said:


> Boy, I'm glad I'm not involved in _this_ one! I don't think I'll think I'll post.
> 
> Evan


Come on Evan! Maybe a SmartSilver series?


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

I don't make tons of money and I am not doing it for the money. I do it because I love the breed and all are labs are priced different depending on the lines and yes I can make more for the silver but I've never been one that has a huge price difference between the silver and a chocolate. I not trying to make a new lab but improve the ones that are already out there. Truth is the silver will be here to stay and the same thing happened years ago when chocolate was brought into the labs. I think there are bad breeders in every kind of dog. People are making 1500 to 2000 on white labs or fox reds and again u will see alot of inbreeding with the fox reds because when u get a desired dog people want to copy it and they use the same lines to get more I'm trying to take a step back add some stronger lines and then in time have silver that yes have nice pedigrees. There are getting to be alot of junior and senior hunters that are silver or charcoal color. The worst part is alot of people who are indeed puppy mills see a huge money sign so it does hurt the breeders that are working hard at getting them excepted. I very rarely sell our pups with full ack registration. I'd love if Akc would allow us to list them as silver but they won't and unfortunately they want them to be listed as chocolates.


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> *I don't make tons of money *and I am not doing it for the money. I do it because I love the breed and all are labs are priced different depending on the lines and *yes I can make more for the silver *but I've never been one that has a huge price difference between the silver and a chocolate. *I not trying to make a new lab but improve the ones that are already out there*. Truth is the silver will be here to stay and the same thing happened years ago when chocolate was brought into the labs. I think there are bad breeders in every kind of dog. People are making *1500 to 2000 on white labs or fox reds *and again u will see alot of inbreeding with the fox reds because when u get a desired dog people want to copy it and they use the same lines to get more* I'm trying to take a step back add some stronger lines and then in time have silver that yes have nice pedigrees.* There are getting to be alot of junior and senior hunters that are silver or charcoal color. The worst part is alot of people who are *indeed puppy mills see a huge money sign *so it does hurt the breeders that are working hard at getting them excepted. I very rarely sell our pups with* full ack registration*. I'd love if Akc would allow us to list them as silver but they won't and unfortunately they want them to be listed as chocolates.


I have stayed out of this for a long time but I have a few things to point out. In order of bold entries.

Saying I do not make tons of money and then saying i can make more for the silver doesn't help your cause. I can sell a puppy of 2 AFCs for more money as well, the difference is only 1 of those is "Improving" the breed as it exists. (I did not mention the color of those pups, just the trainability the parents have shown by having an AFC titles.)
If you are trying to improve the breed, why change the color is it truly doesn't matter? Why not improve the yellow or black or choco labs? Comes back to money.
People are making way more than that on a black or yellow lab with no special color like fox red or snow white, they make the money by breeding quality dogs to create a high quality pup that in turn sells for a high price.
Adding good dogs into the pedigree just to weed out the dogs that do not produce silver, instead of weeding out non performers is backwards again. Also if silver was so natural why arent there any good dogs in the pedigree right now?
Puppy mills see number signs in all dogs, buying a designer color just makes it worse, they will breed them regardless of health because people want them.
Why not offer full AKC reg? If a breeder won't even consider it I get a bit skeptical. Is there a fear the dog won't pass health clearances later? I have been told the limited would be lifted when they passed but never outright told no, except by a show breeder. 

just my .01$


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

I didn't say that I never give out full I said I watch who I give full to and yes I deal alot more with the show breeders because I personally like the blocker English look in labs. I do like the color of the silvers and that is why I personally breed them there are getting to be alot of silvers now that have hunting titles when I talk about improving there lines I'm talking with show lines. Hunting titles are great and it does show the trainabily of the dogs and u can make more. I agree if someone took the time and money to take one of our silvers to titles I would no question ask let them have full Akc right by that point they deserve it. I'm not scared of my dogs failing health test and offer up to a 5 year guarantee with them. 2 years if they feed what ever food they want and 5 if they feed there dogs life's abundance so that I know they are feeding a high quality food that don't cause health issues such as cancer or have food recalls


----------



## dlsweep (Dec 3, 2007)

Wow



(added this to make 10 characters)


----------



## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I didn't say that I never give out full I said I watch who I give full to and yes I deal alot more with the show breeders because I personally like the blocker English look in labs. I do like the color of the silvers and that is why I personally breed them there are getting to be alot of silvers now that have hunting titles when I talk about improving there lines I'm talking with show lines. Hunting titles are great and it does show the trainabily of the dogs and u can make more. I agree if someone took the time and money to take one of our silvers to titles I would no question ask let them have full Akc right by that point they deserve it. I'm not scared of my dogs failing health test and offer up to a 5 year guarantee with them. 2 years if they feed what ever food they want and 5 if they feed there dogs life's abundance so that I know they are feeding a high quality food that don't cause health issues such as cancer or have food recalls


I noticed your also advertising "ivories and whites" on your litter page which is just another marketing strategy. There are three AKC recognized Labrador colors: black, yellow, and chocolate


----------



## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I'd love if Akc would allow us to list them as silver but they won't and unfortunately they want them to be listed as chocolates.


Actually, I don't think the AKC wants them at all.


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

If you have no issues with clearances then why not do the elbow cert or have the EIC, eye test and CNM sent to OFFA? Or post the pedigrees of the gos on the website, link to verified clearances etc. Improving the lines with show lines makes no sense, the color would be a fault from the get go. Once again if it is really about improving the breed, why not improve a recognized color? The headache would be much less if improving a approved color, there would be no issues with studs not wanting to let you use them, more females would use your stud, But than again silvers and other exotic colors fetch a nice price tag, snow whites go for 3k around here with no health clearances at all from the parents. But maybe I am silly, I will keep my yellow clearance puppy.


----------



## CanAmMan (Sep 28, 2007)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I didn't say that I never give out full I said I watch who I give full to and yes I deal alot more with the show breeders because I personally like the blocker English look in labs. I do like the color of the silvers and that is why I personally breed them *there are getting to be alot of silvers now that have hunting titles *when I talk about improving there lines I'm talking with show lines. Hunting titles are great and it does show the trainabily of the dogs and u can make more. I agree if someone took the time and money to take one of our silvers to titles I would no question ask let them have full Akc right by that point they deserve it. I'm not scared of my dogs failing health test and offer up to a 5 year guarantee with them. *2 years if they feed what ever food they want and 5 if they feed there dogs life's abundance so that I know they are feeding a high quality food that don't cause health issues such as cancer or have food recalls*


How many constitues a lot? How many above a JH/SHR?

How much do you make per bag of food odered through your website?


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> Come on Evan! Maybe a SmartSilver series?


Now you're just trying to get me excited about silver labs!

Nuts! Now I've posted!!

Evan


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

The odd thing is you say it is not about the money but yet you prove that wrong on your own website. 

You list prices based on color more for silver or charcoal and less for yellow,choco, and black. 

Then you go even further to make sure you get a premium price by calling the litters This Litter will be Silver,is Litter will be Ivories and White,This Litter will be Chocolate and Silver,This Litter will be Charcoals and Silvers. 

Let me put those litters another way, This litter is chocolate (but that would fetch a lower price), this litter is yellow(but doesn't sound as cool), This litter is choco and light choco(but silver sounds more exotic and some puppies will cost more), This litter will be black and chocolate (but the price would be lower, so lets call them silver and charcoal).

The nice thing is by saying they are "special color" you can charge more, even better is when the buyer registers there pup they will realize they paid more for a color that is not a choice when registering the dog. And on a side note, when I had my last litter any variance in color was not marked up, even for my specialty colors like butterscotch, or dark chocolate, semi-sweet chocolate, or expresso,or black ones, or even favorite high gloss black for those with shiny fur. 

On a side note, you can ignore me, its cool. I am just having fun.


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

CanAmMan said:


> How much do you make per bag of food odered through your website?


The gift that keeps on giving lol.


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Evan said:


> Now you're just trying to get me excited about silver labs!
> 
> Nuts! Now I've posted!!
> 
> Evan


Busted!!! You better get started on that new series.


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

This is y ppl don't want to admit and talk to others about having silvers because it becomes a bunch of attacks. If Akc had issues they would have stopped it when it started but they didn't they indeed where the ones that had culo kennels list them as chocolate after an investigation. I admit what I have and that i breed silvers never hide behind something else. that is the reason I spoke up I am always up front with ppl and never tell others something that is not true i breed and sell my dogs honestly. If all were to follow the rules we won't have Dudley's out there either.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jason Glavich said:


> Busted!!! You better get started on that new series.


But Jason, I illustrate my books with pencil sketches. I'm afraid "silver" may not show up! :BIG:

Evan


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm not saying I don't make money for promoting healthier dog food and to answer the question u make I believe $8 a bag but they don't sell at stores so that make people like me the middle man. U buy ur food at pet I or petsmart u pay them as the middle man. I don't have to leave my house nor to the ppl that buy it, it is delivered to them fresh once a month. On another thing I don't say hey u are buying a pup it's silver and have ppl say later they have a chocolate I tell people that silver is a form of chocolate and that is how they r registered


----------



## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I don't make tons of money and I am not doing it for the money. I do it because I love the breed and all are labs are priced different depending on the lines and yes I can make more for the silver but I've never been one that has a huge price difference between the silver and a chocolate. I not trying to make a new lab but improve the ones that are already out there. Truth is the silver will be here to stay and the same thing happened years ago when chocolate was brought into the labs. I think there are bad breeders in every kind of dog. People are making 1500 to 2000 on white labs or fox reds and again u will see alot of inbreeding with the fox reds because when u get a desired dog people want to copy it and they use the same lines to get more I'm trying to take a step back add some stronger lines and then in time have silver that yes have nice pedigrees. There are getting to be alot of junior and senior hunters that are silver or charcoal color. The worst part is alot of people who are indeed puppy mills see a huge money sign so it does hurt the breeders that are working hard at getting them excepted. I very rarely sell our pups with full ack registration. I'd love if Akc would allow us to list them as silver but they won't and unfortunately they want them to be listed as chocolates.


The difference between "fox red" labs and silver and charcoal etc is there are very successful field trial dogs that are dark yellow. FC AFC Teddy's Ebonstar James, FC AFC Rebel with a cause. Yet even with dogs of that caliber being dark yellow breeding just for that color is wrong. Breed for performance and if silver or purple or red comes out so be it. But silvers have some JH and SH dogs to breed to on a completely rare gene. Most decent year old pups can pass junior with a competent trailer and any talent.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Unfortunately, the AKC rep messed up (and has admitted as much) when that inspection was done years ago. Once the color was added as chocolate, it was a done deal, even though it is NOT a form of chocolate genetically. 

The newest part of this thread is doing nothing to prove credibility...instead, it's cementing the idea that it's just for the money.


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves. 


Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.


Conclusion


Silver Labs are pure bred Labrador Retrievers and their ancestry is beyond reproach. Fortunately, kennel clubs around the world do not have the political pressure from mercenary American breeders of "normal" colored labs and already accept silver labs without all the political fuss and pressure being applied to AKC (the original standard for a lab has always been "a coat of a solid color"). If a person should come upon one of the remaining "Silver Lab Hate sites" on the net and develops ANY doubts about Silver Labs, that person should go directly to AKC and ask the pertinent question to learn the facts."In 1987 we conducted an inquiry into the breeding of the litters that contained the dogs that were registered as silver and one of our representatives was sent to observe several of the dogs that had been registered as silver. Color photographs of these dogs were forwarded to the office of the American Kennel Club where the staff of the AKC and the representative of the Labrador Retriever Club of America examined them. Both parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however both parties felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard describes chocolate as ranging in shade from Sedge to Chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate than as silver." 

Written by Robert Young of the AKC 3/27/00


We feel it is just a matter of time before the AKC recognizes the Silver Lab color as it's own separate color.


----------



## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I'm not saying I don't make money for promoting healthier dog food and to answer the question u make I believe $8 a bag but they don't sell at stores so that make people like me the middle man. U buy ur food at pet I or petsmart u pay them as the middle man. I don't have to leave my house nor to the ppl that buy it, it is delivered to them fresh once a month. On another thing I don't say hey u are buying a pup it's silver and have ppl say later they have a chocolate I tell people that silver is a form of chocolate and that is how they r registered


Could you please E-Lab-Or-Ate?

Primary Color Regards,


----------



## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

"UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same."

Did they compare it to a REAL labrador? I'll bet that they would have found that, it too, was not the same!!!


----------



## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't want a silver, chocolate or even a yellow lab. I like black but I really, really, really want a fluorescent Lab now. Can we work on this rather then silver? 

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pets/glowing-bunny-born-in-turkey-130813.htm


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Issue # 1: *The Labrador standard says absolutely nothing about sedge being a shade of chocolate*...totally false information there. Issue # 2: Quoting Culo is a fast way to downgrade any credibility. Anyone wanting to breed for the recessive (and undesireable) gene should put as much distance in their lines as they can from that kennel. 3. Silver will not be accepted as a color in the Labrador breed. The only way to get AKC papers is to call them chocolate, which genetically they are not. 

All AKC had to go on with that inspection was the info brought back by the rep, who, as I said earlier, has admitted to making a mistake by calling them a shade of chocolate. Genetics have proven that they are not chocolate.

I keep asking for the simple things that responsible breeders do...things like genetic testing and OFA results and pedigrees....and all that is given is reasons why no one will. "If I post OFA results, pedigrees, etc., I'll get picked on because I'm raising silvers, so that's why I won't do it" just says to the whole world that you're embarrassed to be breeding for color and money over quality and health. Breeders who have actual health clearances are PROUD to tell the world that they do.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> This is y ppl don't want to admit and talk to others about having silvers because it becomes a bunch of attacks..


You sound like a nice person so I don't want to pile on. I will say though that the questions answered so far don't really wash. Regardless of the 'words' you use about improving this or that, not for money, etc. is totally dismissed by what your site says you offer. The fact you imply limited registration by all counts can't be considered more than eliminating competition on color. The dog food comparison against PPP Chicken and Rice is inaccurate according to bag labels and it's really hard to see based on the breeding pairs what your selling in value. 

Your site looks like every other site selling color, even the ones you admonish as poor breeders.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> We feel it is just a matter of time before the AKC recognizes the Silver Lab color as it's own separate color.


From the LRC, who is the parent club for the Labrador with AKC, meaning the LRC sets the breed standard:

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_detail_news.php?nid=3


----------



## reger124 (Jul 12, 2013)

Good God this thread got annoying fast! But for some reason I can't stop reading. Everybody has a side and is sticking with it. No body's perception of each other will ever change. The ones against the off colors will always be against the off colors. The ones who like/breed for the off colors will always like/breed those colors. So why do people keep posting! Some of you say that you wanted to hear from some body who breeds them to hear there side and ask them questions. "we don't want to start and argument." you said "We just want to ask a couple questions." you said. Then as soon as some body answers they get ripped to shreds. Also every body keeps repeating each other and picking out stupid things to argue about.


----------



## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

I think there has been some good points on both sides however I believe that buying a Labrador Retriever, with color being the primary reason for the choice, is the single dumbest reason you could have for owning one of these fine animals.

As long as there are people making choices based on fluff and hype insead of substance there will be breeders ready to charge grossly inflated prices for inferior animals.

As P.T. Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute".


----------



## reger124 (Jul 12, 2013)

Jason Glavich said:


> The odd thing is you say it is not about the money but yet you prove that wrong on your own website.
> 
> You list prices based on color more for silver or charcoal and less for yellow,choco, and black.
> 
> ...


Of course it's about the money you IDIOT! This shouldn't even be an argument unless there is inbreeding out the wazoo which this person already said there wasn't in the original post. Ever business is about money even breeding, is there still a love for the animals tho? Whether it is Brown, Black, Yellow, Silver or even Purple! As long as everything is done correctly and they are trying to make that breed better who cares about the money. The regular colors are sold cheaper on there website because they don't have top notch genes either I bet so the "Rare" colors go for more. 

What is wrong with putting what the color of the litter will be again? I have been on many breeders websites and they all say "all black litter" "all yellow's" etc. Its a way to let people who are looking for a puppy know what litter they want to get there spot in for. It has nothing to do with being flashy. 

And the your earlier post about the AKC list or what ever they posted that they where starting to get those up on there website on the second post. Maybe you should do a little reading before you decide to argue.


----------



## reger124 (Jul 12, 2013)

I have been reading this thread since it started and saw two people get jumped on who tried to talk about what you all wanted them to talk about.NICE.....

That last guy just got on my nerves. So I decided to post. I am new to this forum and really enjoy reading all the info. you guys post to help the new guys but be a little forgiving sometimes and not so hard headed. The colors aren't a disaster to the breed. They aren't making the breed any worse. You can still find breeders with the same dogs you've been buying just now there are some with a different color. Genetically if everything is done correctly the new colors will be just as promising as the originals but that will be a long time from now. The old colors and there physical and mental genes that have been worked on for many years to get to where they are today isn't going any where. A perfect dog isn't going to go dumb just because it breeds with a smart but not the most athletic silver silver. Some of the puppies will be a little better though and that is how the breed progresses.

Everyone is over reacting on this subject just a little bit. Once again sorry for the tude and i hope you guys will still answer my questions in the future.


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

I stated before I was in the process of updating my website and adding more information copy's of pedigrees and also proof of health clearances. I apologize for my site not meeting some of ur standards I made it myself and am proud of it, it's not a quick put together site I learned HTML and stuff for it. I'm done having defend my kennel. I'm a single mother of 5 children and work very hard with my dogs and started out with nothing and did all I could to make my kennel and dogs known and weather some like it or not I'm getting there and with not alot of help from haters of the silvers. But no matter what I will keep pushing forward and making dogs that I am proud to say I bred. Ill keep doing health test and improving my lines to my liking. Because in the end the only person that I needs approval from is myself. If any one has normal questions I'd be glad answer but I don't feel the need to repeat y I bred them and be told it is only for money or the dog food I only feed cuz I get kickback, I'd feed it with or without it. I like the food and like not worrying about recalls and I like knowing when I'm getting it every month no running last minute because I am out of food. I myself pay 64 a bag so I'm not skimping on price and feed crappy stuff. Up until a year ago I used purina and stood behind them. But after learning that they make food from dead cats and dogs that were sick I quit using it. We are all going to have our own opinion on color food vitamins etc


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

reger124 said:


> I have been reading this thread since it started and saw two people get jumped on who tried to talk about what you all wanted them to talk about.NICE.....
> .


No disrespect intended reger but you know even less about breeding than I do! ;-) What are 'mental genes'?


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I stated before I was in the process of updating my website and adding more information copy's of pedigrees and also proof of health clearances. I apologize for my site not meeting some of ur standards I made it myself and am proud of it, it's not a quick put together site I learned HTML and stuff for it. I'm done having defend my kennel. I'm a single mother of 5 children and work very hard with my dogs and started out with nothing and did all I could to make my kennel and dogs known and weather some like it or not I'm getting there and with not alot of help from haters of the silvers. But no matter what I will keep pushing forward and making dogs that I am proud to say I bred. Ill keep doing health test and improving my lines to my liking. Because in the end the only person that I needs approval from is myself. If any one has normal questions I'd be glad answer but I don't feel the need to repeat y I bred them and be told it is only for money or the dog food I only feed cuz I get kickback, I'd feed it with or without it. I like the food and like not worrying about recalls and I like knowing when I'm getting it every month no running last minute because I am out of food. I myself pay 64 a bag so I'm not skimping on price and feed crappy stuff. Up until a year ago I used purina and stood behind them. But after learning that they make food from dead cats and dogs that were sick I quit using it. We are all going to have our own opinion on color food vitamins etc


Honestly - I am curious to understand what you breed for other than color. I looked an Hanks pedigree. From what I can tell no OFA data on Hank (maybe that's in progress) and only one dog from Sire/Dam had OFA. What is the expectation from a litter by Hank other than 'great family pet'?


----------



## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> I stated before I was in the process of updating my website and adding more information copy's of pedigrees and also proof of health clearances. I apologize for my site not meeting some of ur standards I made it myself and am proud of it, it's not a quick put together site I learned HTML and stuff for it. I'm done having defend my kennel. I'm a single mother of 5 children and work very hard with my dogs and started out with nothing and did all I could to make my kennel and dogs known and weather some like it or not I'm getting there and with not alot of help from haters of the silvers. But no matter what I will keep pushing forward and making dogs that I am proud to say I bred. Ill keep doing health test and improving my lines to my liking. Because in the end the only person that I needs approval from is myself. If any one has normal questions I'd be glad answer but I don't feel the need to repeat y I bred them and be told it is only for money or the dog food I only feed cuz I get kickback, I'd feed it with or without it. I like the food and like not worrying about recalls and I like knowing when I'm getting it every month no running last minute because I am out of food. I myself pay 64 a bag so I'm not skimping on price and feed crappy stuff. Up until a year ago I used purina and stood behind them. But after learning that they make food from dead cats and dogs that were sick I quit using it. We are all going to have our own opinion on color food vitamins etc


Seriously????? That's one of the most bizarre and unsubstantiated statements I've ever seen about a dog food brand.


----------



## Brandoned (Aug 20, 2004)

frontier said:


> Seriously????? That's one of the most bizarre and unsubstantiated statements I've ever seen about a dog food brand.


Consider the source...


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

reger124 said:


> Of course it's about the money you IDIOT! This shouldn't even be an argument unless there is inbreeding out the wazoo which this person already said there wasn't in the original post. Ever business is about money even breeding, is there still a love for the animals tho? Whether it is Brown, Black, Yellow, Silver or even Purple! As long as everything is done correctly and they are trying to make that breed better who cares about the money. The regular colors are sold cheaper on there website because they don't have top notch genes either I bet so the "Rare" colors go for more.
> 
> What is wrong with putting what the color of the litter will be again? I have been on many breeders websites and they all say "all black litter" "all yellow's" etc. Its a way to let people who are looking for a puppy know what litter they want to get there spot in for. It has nothing to do with being flashy.


I dare say that if you think raising pups is about making money, particularly if you have dams and are raising puppies correctly, then you are either highly misguided or possibly being slightly misleading. Unless you constantly have an FC-AFC being bred to the same, I think most folks would tell you that you will be doing pretty good to break even over time.

I would also say that for most folks on this forum, color is only a consideration after genetic testing and observed parental characteristics, and if the first two aren't right (at least for them) then color is not relevant. Listing color in and of itself is not good or bad. Listing color and striving to have it be the main focus of a potential buyer is probably not good. 

If "silver labs" are popular, and thus more profitable, and if the only thing that really matters to most buyers is the color, then is a given breeder more or less likely to breed solely for color, forgetting all other health considerations? That certainly may not be how you do it, because I do not know how you do it. But that would be the concern of folks who are truly concerned about the breed and where it is going. 

JMHO. YMMV.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

First of all Welcome-Viking sort of jumped right in didn't yah 

I must've missed it in 18 pages, but Wasn't this thread originally to find a breeder of an exotic color that does all the normal, pedigree and health material which we would expect of any responsible breeder, and not a debate on whether these colors should be bred at all? 

Seems we might have found one, who may indeed health test. Now perhaps it would be a good thing for those Numbers to be listed with the dog on the Web-page or to at least have registered names so the data finders, can verify the claims, and look up performance records, etc. Links to pedigrees might be nice. Then everyone has proof and can see what is there, and won't have to hypothesis on just why such things might be kept in the dark. This is what would be expected of any performance breeder. On the limited registration, show breeders always sell limited, many performance people sell limited. If you were truly interested in the well being of an exotic pup, who very well could be used as a cash cow for an unscrupulous buyer, wouldn't you'd sell limited? Still it might be better to list conditions (health screens/title etc.) for how limited will be lifted, and take away the concept that it's a $$$ thing. ($700-$1000) does not seem like an unreasonable price for an AKC registered Lab pup of any color. Still in the performance world, having and showing documents-numbers will help you a lot more than not. While I might choose not to breed my stud-bitch to another for a number of reasons, I will definitely not breed them to a dog who's health clearance and performance records I cannot find. When these aren't listed with the dog, people will always be convinced there's a reason they are not listed. If one is going to breed exotics; there will always be people vehemently against it, and you'll have these arguments until the end of days. If someone want to be considered a responsible breeder (regardless of what they breed) It's much better to have the your documents right out in the open to show that you are doing it right.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Can you breed a silver pointing lab? That would be a complete package


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

reger124 said:


> Whether it is Brown, Black, Yellow, Silver or even Purple! As long as everything is done correctly and they are trying to make that breed better who cares about the money. The regular colors are sold cheaper on there website because they don't have top notch genes either I bet so the "Rare" colors go for more.


Have you been at this game long? Breeding? Training? Competing? Do you have even the slightest idea how much effort, sacrifice, and dedication it takes to refine a breed like the Labrador to its potential? Even the essential colors offer more challenge than many breeders meet to keep health clearances optimized, let alone the best concentration of genetic performance traits.

Then comes the characters who just have to have something 'different'; a Sliver Lab, for example. I took a look at several sites just because of this discussion. Precious little in either regard; health or performance titles. How does lowering the standard on essential traits improve the breed? 

Evan


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

Thank u hunt em up for the advice I will gladly be putting up the informations on mine along with pedigrees so that people can look them up if they like and I liked the idea of putting ways ppl can have limited removed on the site never though of doing that. The reason I don't usually sell with limited is because of ppl that are in it to make a quick buck without health clearances. As of others said I don't see profit from breeding because u always put it back with things needed. Breeding is not a way to make money if u r doing it correctly. I do have a question if someone is willing to answer.... How do u put proof of dogs when they are cleared from eic, Cnm, and dm in my case Chester and lit bit are done but I have princess and sharky who r there kids so I never tested them due to it being a inherited disease


----------



## reger124 (Jul 12, 2013)

RookieTrainer said:


> I dare say that if you think raising pups is about making money, particularly if you have dams and are raising puppies correctly, then you are either highly misguided or possibly being slightly misleading. Unless you constantly have an FC-AFC being bred to the same, I think most folks would tell you that you will be doing pretty good to break even over time.
> 
> I would also say that for most folks on this forum, color is only a consideration after genetic testing and observed parental characteristics, and if the first two aren't right (at least for them) then color is not relevant. Listing color in and of itself is not good or bad. Listing color and striving to have it be the main focus of a potential buyer is probably not good.
> 
> ...


I'm saying the reasoning behind any business is to make money. With breeding you still want to make money the only difference is that you are dealing with animals which if you are going to do anything like that you should care deeply about. There is a right way and a wrong way to anything. But I wasn't posting about all breeders. I was posting about vikingsilverlabs who came out and said what she was doing. Does the website have everything it should? No. But they are working on getting all the info out there. 

And I agree that breeding just for color to make a profit without any care for the breed is wrong. VERY WRONG. But once again they said they are trying to breed the right way and make the dogs better. Just because there are some useless breeders out there that breed only for color because it is popular doesn't mean that all breeders who breed those colors do the same thing. There is a right and a wrong way to everything but I believe that they are doing the right thing and shouldn't get ripped apart for answering the questions you guys asked them to. They answered honestly about what they were doing and got beat up for it. That's not right.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> Thank u hunt em up for the advice I will gladly be putting up the informations on mine along with pedigrees so that people can look them up if they like and I liked the idea of putting ways ppl can have limited removed on the site never though of doing that. The reason I don't usually sell with limited is because of ppl that are in it to make a quick buck without health clearances. As of others said I don't see profit from breeding because u always put it back with things needed. Breeding is not a way to make money if u r doing it correctly. I do have a question if someone is willing to answer.... How do u put proof of dogs when they are cleared from eic, Cnm, and dm in my case Chester and lit bit are done but I have princess and sharky who r there kids so I never tested them due to it being a inherited disease


But, you mentioned you were selected by AKC for inspection because you've produced over 6 litters a year. That's a business. Businesses are for making money.


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

You pretty much just lost all credibility quoting off the Culo website 


Vikingsilverlabs said:


> DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves.
> 
> Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.
> 
> ...


 * Back when these dogs were "DNA tested" the ONLY thing DNA could prove, was that a tested dog's parents were those listed on the pedigree, and even that only if both parents were available for testing.
*



> We feel it is just a matter of time before the AKC recognizes the Silver Lab color as it's own separate color.


 It's not up to the AKC to decide whether or not to recognize the color. That is the job of the Labrador parent club, the LRC. And their position has been stated several other times on this thread. I posted this earlier on the thread, #146 but, I think you missed it: Bottom line: it really doesn't matter if the dilution gene was fraudulently introduced via crossbreeding or if it lurked there for generations leftover from some of the breeds behind the early Labradors. I would imagine those dogs crossed with the St. Johns water dogs had many traits, both dominant and recessive, that were selectively bred out/culled _*including the dilution gene*_. So it's just plain arrogant for people to breed it back in against the parent club's stated objection, no matter where it came from.


----------



## reger124 (Jul 12, 2013)

Evan said:


> Have you been at this game long? Breeding? Training? Competing? Do you have even the slightest idea how much effort, sacrifice, and dedication it takes to refine a breed like the Labrador to its potential? Even the essential colors offer more challenge than many breeders meet to keep health clearances optimized, let alone the best concentration of genetic performance traits.
> 
> Then comes the characters who just have to have something 'different'; a Sliver Lab, for example. I took a look at several sites just because of this discussion. Precious little in either regard; health or performance titles. How does lowering the standard on essential traits improve the breed?
> 
> Evan



Truthfully not long. But I'm not saying that I know anything. I know it takes a lot of work and dedication to refine a breed. But without help from other breeders would labs genetics be where they are today? The people breeding for the wrong reasons shouldn't be helped but the ones that are trying to do things right deserve some credit. How are they ever going to get the off colors to the standard of the "real" colors without the help of other breeders. They need good dogs to make good dogs. Isn't that why breeders are so selective with what they breed to. The best to the best to make even better? at one point in time the original colors were probably about how the new ones are but with selective breeding look where it's at. It's the same thing just started from square one.


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

Paul yes I am a business but I don't do it for the money I do it for the joy I get from it. I have learned so much from color testing, health testing, how to deliver pups revive pups that were born dead, bottle feeding. It is happy and sad and the greatest learning experience I have had. I enjoy getting to place my pups with a amazing family and here back from them on how they turned out and how much joy something I produce gave someone so much love. It's things like this that I like and y I do it. It's not about just using random dogs with no care for health to make something and turn a profit. I want to know that the family who has my pup are going to have many years of love from it not have a dog that in 2 years needs to be put down from health defects or hip dysplasia.


----------



## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Vikingsilverlabs said:


> Thank u hunt em up for the advice I will gladly be putting up the informations on mine along with pedigrees so that people can look them up if they like and I liked the idea of putting ways ppl can have limited removed on the site never though of doing that. The reason I don't usually sell with limited is because of ppl that are in it to make a quick buck without health clearances. As of others said I don't see profit from breeding because u always put it back with things needed. Breeding is not a way to make money if u r doing it correctly. I do have a question if someone is willing to answer.... How do u put proof of dogs when they are cleared from eic, Cnm, and dm in my case Chester and lit bit are done but I have princess and sharky who r there kids so I never tested them due to it being a inherited disease


Here's the background on the OFA health database
http://www.offa.org/dbaserole.html

The OFA hip and OFA elbow clearance will automatically appear on the OFA web site when you send your dogs hip xrays in for their OFA evaluation. If you chose to Penn-Hip you can still submit a copy of your result to OFA with a fee. CNM and EIC results as well as ACVO eye clearance can also be recorded with OFA. 

http://www.offa.org/index.html 

You must only use test results from the organizations listed here
http://www.offa.org/dna_labs.html

For example, EIC DNA results will only be accepted by OFA from University of Minnesota Diagnostic Lab. 

If you have your health results centralized at OFA, you can put a link to their record at OFA on the dog's page;
or you can just list your OFA clearance numbers with each dog; or you can scan each certificate issued and upload it to your web page.
It's done many different ways.


----------



## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

reger- First off, I would like to say I appreciate how you jumped in on what you believed. Even if I or others do/don't agree. 

I don't know if you missed it or chose not to read it but it has been stated the LRC (Labrador Retriever Club) *REFUSES *to accept any other color than the 3 that are on the AKC registration. Black, Chocolate, Yellow. I agree you have to start somewhere with a breeding program. When it comes to breeding, _it should be_ about bettering the breed or enhancing traits that make these dogs better. I personally do not see how adding another color betters the breed or makes a dog better. You said: "They need good dogs to make good dogs.", I wholeheartedly agree. The thing is breeding poorly bred or substandard dogs to similar dogs is not doing that. 

I am no way shape or form bashing Vikinglabs, she's trying to back up her dogs with proper qualifications. I like many others don't understand why but that's her business.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

reger124 said:


> Truthfully not long.


I appreciate your honesty, and your willingness to cut Vikingsilverlabs some slack. The fly in the ointment for me, and I suspect others who have made retrievers their life, is defining the criteria for "trying to do things right". I chose to focus on training. Breeding is a specialty of its own, and I know how hard they work...AND what are the critical elements they work so hard to promote. Read what the folks here are saying. They're talking about specific health clearances, and performance titles that reflect verifiable winning level traits. But more, there are proven crosses the good breeders know, and much more. It can be learned, but breeding to produce an exotic color as a focus of a program works against the odds for success in improving and maintaining the best of the breed. If you're willing to do it right, it means doing it all, and hanging in there for more than fur. Hats off to top breeders!

Evan


----------



## Vikingsilverlabs (Aug 16, 2013)

I will admit I see ur guys point to it is very hard to except something different into a breed I was raised with a lab and a Rottweiler and yes I am open minded with the labs and I do believe it was a gene that has been around but hidden when it would appear in the past and only reason I will say this is mybfirstbever litter from a chocolate lab from a descent kennel was breed to a very high uppity up kennel, I had 9 pups 1 of which was a silver had never heard of such a thing until then. I was told to was a mutation because lord knows they will never claim it to be in there lines. If someone was to say they had a purple rott I'd say same thing u do and argue the purity of it. I think that it's good people have opinions because world would be boring with out them. I truely can't answer alot on training because I suck and have to pay ppl to do it for me. Only basic I can handle but I do know alot of things about breeding if anyone ever has questions there


----------



## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Can you breed a silver pointing lab? That would be a complete package


They already developed one. It's called a Weimaraner.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

As the person who started this thread, which has for the most part remained fairly civil, I appreciate the viewpoints of the people who are trying to do a good job of what is an uphill battle. 

I just have a hard time with misinformation being stated as fact when it's really just trying to cover up the truth, and that misinformation being passed on to prospective buyers. Why not just be honest and say in the advertising: "Silver is not a color recognized by the AKC or the breed standard and is a disqualification in the conformation show ring. The dogs can still compete in hunt tests and other performance events. We breed them because we like the color." Simple, honest truth. It says nothing negative about the color, just states the facts as they exist.


----------



## CanAmMan (Sep 28, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> I just have a hard time with misinformation being stated as fact when it's really just trying to cover up the truth, and that misinformation being passed on to prospective buyers. Why not just be honest and say in the advertising: "Silver is not a color recognized by the AKC or the breed standard and is a disqualification in the conformation show ring. The dogs can still compete in hunt tests and other performance events. We breed them because we like the color." Simple, honest truth. It says nothing negative about the color, just states the facts as they exist.


Because if the breeders were to make a comment like this how can they then justify the 30% or more markup on the price of a "rare" colored pup over that of just an old plain jane black, chocolate or yellow?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Vikinglabs, you state you do clearances and are trying to improve your chosen type, which is by your website, the "dilute" shades of Labs, silver, charcoal, champagne, ivories, whites, whatever. Breeding for color is certainly your choice, there's a market for everything, no one is forcing anyone to pay for such things. However, the rest of your argument, where you state that you know a lot about breeding, that you do clearances, that you are trying to "improve" your dogs and get better, well, there appear to be some things lacking on your site. Your current litter on your site, neither sire nor dam has anything on OFA. This is at least the second litter for the dam. Her page says OFA pending, as do many of the dogs you have on there. The sire has nothing. If you are breeding on prelims or for some reason don't want finals on OFA or are using PennHip but not doing elbows, or are doing eyes but not submitting them to CERF or OFA, well, fine, but don't expect anyone to believe you are doing such clearances without any kind of proof beyond your sayso. We've mostly all been around the block a time or two. Sharon, who started this thread, did so asking for proof, still haven't seen it.

Of all the dogs on your site, only two show up on OFA with hips. One has elbows but no hips. So, you know about OFA, use it for some but not others? Yet, you have color tested every one of them and posted those results. Priorities? 

Everyone has a learning curve. None of us are perfect. Not everyone knows about all their breed's stuff before breeding, many learn as they go, most in it for the long haul continue to modify, improve, drop some dogs that didn't provide what they wanted, add others, continually tweaking to get what they want. With a diverse breed like Labs, there is much disagreement among us as to what should be bred and shouldn't, bench vs field vs British vs silver ad nauseum. We have more threads on these topics than we do on training, I think. But what we mostly all agree on is that basic health clearances are pretty much non-negotiable, regardless of what "type" of Lab is being bred. No EIC/CNM/PRA affected Labrador should ever have to suffer from those conditions ever again, with a simple genetic test easily preventing affecteds. And while OFA, PennHip and CERF certainly aren't perfect or an absolute guarantee there won't be bad hips/elbows, at least doing them shows a bit of concern and attempt at avoiding problems with the only tools we have right now. Just putting "pending" next to the dog's name doesn't quite cut the mustard when they have already produced offspring. 

Sharon posted this thread for specific answers to credibility for silver breeders, I still haven't seen one with consistent clearances and a clear breeding goal that goes beyond just producing a shade that will bring in the most $$ regardless of any other attributes or lack thereof a dog may have. I do see the same old spiel about how silvers have always been around being regurgitated, along with the same old tired excuses, whining about persecution, we're so mean and unwelcoming, blah blah. Well, it's quite simple. Put up or shut up. That's all that's being asked.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

And, don't care if someone just breeds for color or a type, don't care if they breed doodles or whatever designer dog anyone wants to buy. Do care that people do right by the dogs and don't put $$ before health. There are some trying, running their "dilutes" in HT and whatnot, I get that they love their shade/dog, I get that, and I'm not insulting the dogs themselves or those who truly love them and not the $$. I just don't personally care for those who have more excuses than clearances, whatever the breed.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

is Vikinglabs in Amish country?


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Dave Plesko said:


> They already developed one. It's called a Weimaraner.


 :snipersmile:

Evan


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I'm waiting for Pals to breed a silver pointing JRT. Until then ill stick with my boring Los black dogs

/Paul


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

C'mon - 4 summer 2013 breedings at 900 average a pop based on colors bred for x roughly 32 pups! Choices abound and money will be lost at 29K.


----------



## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Rainmaker said:


> Vikinglabs, you state you do clearances and are trying to improve your chosen type, which is by your website, the "dilute" shades of Labs, silver, charcoal, champagne, ivories, whites, whatever. Breeding for color is certainly your choice, there's a market for everything, no one is forcing anyone to pay for such things. However, the rest of your argument, where you state that you know a lot about breeding, that you do clearances, that you are trying to "improve" your dogs and get better, well, there appear to be some things lacking on your site. Your current litter on your site, neither sire nor dam has anything on OFA. This is at least the second litter for the dam. Her page says OFA pending, as do many of the dogs you have on there. The sire has nothing. If you are breeding on prelims or for some reason don't want finals on OFA or are using PennHip but not doing elbows, or are doing eyes but not submitting them to CERF or OFA, well, fine, but don't expect anyone to believe you are doing such clearances without any kind of proof beyond your sayso. We've mostly all been around the block a time or two. Sharon, who started this thread, did so asking for proof, still haven't seen it.
> 
> Of all the dogs on your site, only two show up on OFA with hips. One has elbows but no hips. So, you know about OFA, use it for some but not others? Yet, you have color tested every one of them and posted those results. Priorities?
> 
> ...


Most excellent point.. I have a friend/co-worker who insisted on getting a silver pup.. She assured me that the breeder sent her some "health clearances", and I sent her the links to look them up, which she didn't do. Turned out both parents were under 2 years old. She paid $1600 for this dog. WTF.. When she got the pup, she brought her to train with us, and she loved to retrieve and LOVED birds.. My friend ended up not loving the sport, but is very much in love with her dog and has lots of parlour tricks, and hikes etc.. Anyhow, she was a very cute pup, but looked like a Weim..

Now that this dog is 2, she seems built NOT like a lab.. She has very narrow hips, weird wave to her fur, and has an interesting personality. She looks nothing like a pure lab, color-wise or build.. Here is a pic of Darla, Spanky and Nahla the silver...


----------



## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

My sister got a dilute Lab last year. Before the poor pup was 6 mos., multiple vet trips revealed that it's a train wreck of crippling dysplasia and autoimmune problems. She tried to contact the breeder (who claimed to have a health guarantee) and found the website down and phone disconnected, but did find others with similar problems doing an internet search. Sadly, I believe her experience is the norm. Most of the general pet buying public has no idea of how to look up hips, elbows and clearances on OFA and sadly, believe websites where charlatans claim their dogs have "cleared" hips, etc. For this reason, I harbor a special animosity toward lying frauds who produce animals destined to live pain-filled lives.


----------



## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Julie R. said:


> My sister got a dilute Lab last year. Before the poor pup was 6 mos., multiple vet trips revealed that it's a train wreck of crippling dysplasia and autoimmune problems. She tried to contact the breeder (who claimed to have a health guarantee) and found the website down and phone disconnected, but did find others with similar problems doing an internet search. Sadly, I believe her experience is the norm. Most of the general pet buying public has no idea of how to look up hips, elbows and clearances on OFA and sadly, believe websites where charlatans claim their dogs have "cleared" hips, etc. For this reason, I harbor a special animosity toward lying frauds who produce animals destined to live pain-filled lives.


As much as I try to educate people I know about health clearances and the importance of knowing something about the parents, nobody listens. They think it is only important for competition dogs, and they only want a pet. It is hard to resist any puppy, so do your research before going to pick the puppy because nobody can leave without one.


----------



## kelrobin (Aug 12, 2013)

Dave Plesko said:


> They already developed one. It's called a Weimaraner.


zing!!

My main problem with these dilutes is the falsehoods that the breeders tell. Dilutes are not a standard color, they never will be a standard color and own up to the fact that the first one was produced by someone who bred Labs and Weimaraner. If they are so prevalent in the breed as the silver mutt people claim, being there since the beginning, why hasn't any reputable breeder of chocolates produced one? Why doesn't ANY Kennel Club in the world recognize the color?


----------



## griff68w (Jul 9, 2013)

i have heard stories that back in the 30s till maybe the 60s breeders would kill pups that were anything other than black. and make all kinds of excuses as to how nothing else was a real lab. from the sounds of some of you and your views on this maybe any breeder who has one gets rid of the evidence before someone says he has muts and is passing them off as labs. i dont care one way or the other about it, hell as long as the dog hunts who cares. 
i do like the looks of the silvers. thought about getting one just to piss off the guys in my club then i saw the price and didnt think the joke was that funny.


----------



## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

Summer blues must be getting to people to bring the silver topic back up again....It's a good thing hunting season is just around the corner. :grab:


----------



## mathewrodriguez (May 11, 2011)

griff68w said:


> i do like the looks of the silvers. thought about getting one just to piss off the guys in my club then i saw the price and didnt think the joke was that funny.


The price tag wouldn't have been the joke.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Interesting read,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there just Lab's. Why all the fuss?????????????;-);-)


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Golddogs said:


> Interesting read,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there just Lab's. Why all the fuss?????????????;-);-)



I guess lab owners have a lot more time on our hands in comparison to golden owners,considering it takes awhile to pick out proper bandannas for the days task ahead. Then spend that afternoon combing their coat because they jumped in the pond after a frog


----------



## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Golddogs said:


> Interesting read,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there just Lab's. Why all the fuss?????????????;-);-)


EEEEeeeeeee...I suppose we could start breeding in Pomeranians or JACK RUSSELL's to get a better canoe lab too.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

griff68w said:


> i have heard stories that back in the 30s till maybe the 60s breeders would kill pups that were anything other than black. and make all kinds of excuses as to how nothing else was a real lab. from the sounds of some of you and your views on this maybe any breeder who has one gets rid of the evidence before someone says he has muts and is passing them off as labs. i dont care one way or the other about it, hell as long as the dog hunts who cares.
> i do like the looks of the silvers. thought about getting one just to piss off the guys in my club then i saw the price and didnt think the joke was that funny.


I've been told by two different old timers, one highly respected for a line he developed the other a long time pro trainer. Both have made comments that Chocolates and often yellows were culled by many breeders which considered them inferior.


----------



## Gary Southall (Jan 17, 2012)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I've been told by two different old timers, one highly respected for a line he developed the other a long time pro trainer. Both have made comments that Chocolates and often yellows were culled by many breeders which considered them inferior.


Well at least the Yellows proved them wrong.


----------



## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Considering that back in the "old days" they culled for lots of things they didn't want, it's kind of hard to draw a comparison to what people do now and why.

Since the only color labs recognized by the breed club are black, yellow, and chocolate, that breeding for a different color is not improving the breed in any way and is in fact detrimental to the breed as you are purposely increasing the incidence of a trait that was bred out of the breed on purpose, or that was not intended to be in the breed. On top of that, in order to increase the incidence of that undesirable recessive trait, you are putting undue emphasis on color in your breeding while giving less importance to important factors such as performace, health, structure, etc.

Kind of seems like if your goal is to create a dog that isn't what the breed club says their breed should be, why don't you just create your own new breed and start your own breed club and stop messing around with Labs, and trying to say you have some kind of special lab when the very thing that makes it special is a disqualification. The added benefit for you on that is you would be free to cross with wiemaraners and other breeds to get what you want.


----------



## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

griff68w said:


> i dont care one way or the other about it, hell as long as the dog hunts who cares.


I'm not sure that the argument is completely about the purity of the breed so much as about the potential health problems that seem to be associated with breeding solely for color. Whether it can hunt or not, if selecting for this color means ignoring genetic problems like bad joints, a tendency to blindness, a propensity for certain cancers, or other debilitating or life shortening conditions, I most certainly would care (and I hope so would you).


----------



## griff68w (Jul 9, 2013)

that is a good point. i was thinking all things equal as far as health goes and just color being the deciding factor. i dont want anyone thinking i would want a less healthy dog just for the sake of color. i do like the way they look but
not the price or health problems. 
but if they are indeed a mix dog, i have always been tolled that most of the time would help with health problems. something about mutts get the best from both breeds and less of the bad traits. just something i have heard.


----------



## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Come on Shawninthesticks....................... you know that Goldens don't go in the water.
Geez :/


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Sue, that is not true ...I once seen one go after a frog like crazy...well not really but it did put its front feet in the water and perk its ears up.


----------



## Giuseppe (Jan 6, 2021)

Ironman said:


> Sharon, here is what is wrong with your credibility challenge, which also addresses some other comments made.
> The breeders who are doing these clearances typically do not have many "silver" Labs. Most if their Labs are BYC but carry the dilute gene in a homozygous recessive state. These are the breeders who know that is it plain stupid to keep inbreeding the already inbred silver lines. These are the breeders who are trying their darnedest to breed to the best lines they possibly can to expand the gene pool and eliminate any possible affects of historic inbreeding. They are the breeders who invest way more than they could ever hope to make. They are doing it because the love Labradors and they love their Labradors and want them to be every bit as good as any Labrador regardless of color. Because of the vicious hatred, as is again being displayed here over the last few days, these breeders rarely will provide full internet access to the names of their dogs, or even certifications that give that away. If they are "labeled," as many would like to do, as horrid unethical puppy mill'ers they would have a difficult time breeding a better Lab, and the dogs suffer yet again. It used to be easier to get that info until last year.
> In the Last year, due to a "Silver" winning the Potomac Obedience trial and the witch hunt that the show community went on afterward, many silver breeders have moved to protect their Labs and their efforts to continue to improve by keeping their dog's identities private. That said, they are providing that info to committed puppy buyers, or should be (again, people should not buy from a breeder that will not prove their certifications, titles, etc).
> 
> ...


Been doing a lot of pedigree tracing and trying to determine other outcrossing which occurred which may explain Dilutes. Doing this because, there has been zero witness of Weims of Kelloggs property. Also zero evidence of culo having Weim. So I was wondering what other lines you may know about besides Kellogg that had dilute litters? Or what outcrossing you may know about which carry the dilute that were used.. I see many outcrossing documented, which carried at least 1 copy of the dilute,
which could explain the silver.


----------



## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

I’ll bite. The stud book for Labradors was closed in 1916, which means that no out-crosses would be allowed or acknowledged after that point in order to keep the breed pure. So the source of the outcross is moot. Any outcross after 1916 deems the resulting dogs not purebred Labradors.

The dilute color gene did not occur in Labradors when the stud book was closed, hence the appearance of it means an unsanctioned out-cross,hence NOT purebred Labradors.

End of story.

Meredith


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Giuseppe said:


> Been doing a lot of pedigree tracing and trying to determine other outcrossing which occurred which may explain Dilutes. Doing this because, there has been zero witness of Weims of Kelloggs property. Also zero evidence of culo having Weim. So I was wondering what other lines you may know about besides Kellogg that had dilute litters? Or what outcrossing you may know about which carry the dilute that were used.. I see many outcrossing documented, which carried at least 1 copy of the dilute,
> which could explain the silver.


Crist (Culo) didn't own a Weimaraner. And he always carefully stated he never owned one when questioned, which is true, he didn't own one. That's called lying via omission. However....

He did complain loudly (and there are credible witnesses to this) about the Weimaraner that kept sniffing around his kennels, and right after that, POOF! Dilute puppies. He then inbred heavily, using mother to son, father to daughter, brother to sister, etc. to keep getting the color.


----------



## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Hi Meredith,
Just a note. The British Kennel Club allowed retriever crossbreds and interbreds until at least 1937. Interbreds were crosses between the retriever breeds recognized at that time. For instance, a Labrador would be bred to a golden retriever (quite common). The puppies from that litter would be registered as Interbreds. One of those pups could then be bred to another purebred, registered golden, and be registered as a purebred golden. 

Crossbreds consisted of a retriever breed bred to another breed or do who wasn't a retriever. Many times the non-purebred was not registered. Those crossbreds would then be registered, bred back into purebred lines, and eventually be registered as purebreds.

I am in no way saying this produced a dilute gene or was the background of silver Labradors. I am NOT an advocate of silver labs. But thought you might find this interesting that the English Kennel Club allowed this type of breeding and registry up until, I believe, the start of World War II. (I have some English Kennel Club stud books listing registrations of these retriever interbreds and crossbreds.)

So, in the third generation, these interbreds or crossbreds would be registered as a purebred. If someone imported one of these dogs to the U.S., the Kennel Club would provide the official export pedigree and the dog could be registered with the AKC as a purebred.

I found this pretty fascinating.



mwk56 said:


> I’ll bite. The stud book for Labradors was closed in 1916, which means that no out-crosses would be allowed or acknowledged after that point in order to keep the breed pure. So the source of the outcross is moot. Any outcross after 1916 deems the resulting dogs not purebred Labradors.
> 
> The dilute color gene did not occur in Labradors when the stud book was closed, hence the appearance of it means an unsanctioned out-cross,hence NOT purebred Labradors.
> 
> ...


----------



## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

J. Marti said:


> Hi Meredith,
> Just a note. The British Kennel Club allowed retriever crossbreds and interbreds until at least 1937. Interbreds were crosses between the retriever breeds recognized at that time. For instance, a Labrador would be bred to a golden retriever (quite common). The puppies from that litter would be registered as Interbreds. One of those pups could then be bred to another purebred, registered golden, and be registered as a purebred golden.
> 
> Crossbreds consisted of a retriever breed bred to another breed or do who wasn't a retriever. Many times the non-purebred was not registered. Those crossbreds would then be registered, bred back into purebred lines, and eventually be registered as purebreds.
> ...


Since our friends across the pond have never had dilutes show up, their open stud book seems to be irrelevant. It is strictly a North America problem.

Meredith


----------



## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

mwk56 said:


> Since our friends across the pond have never had dilutes show up, their open stud book seems to be irrelevant. It is strictly a North America problem.
> 
> Meredith


There are several silver Labrador breeders in the UK. Some of my gundog owning friends in the UK are fit to be tied about that. As I said above, I don't believe the open studbooks in the UK had anything to do with silvers in North America.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

J. Marti said:


> There are several silver Labrador breeders in the UK. Some of my gundog owning friends in the UK are fit to be tied about that. As I said above, I don't believe the open studbooks in the UK had anything to do with silvers in North America.


That is not how the silvers were contrived in the US. It is a direction they like to use in the story though but it was not so.


----------



## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

A silver lab is a black lab crossed with a chocolate lab right?🤔


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

It took a lot of Cross breeding and Line breeding to get the colour just right .


----------



## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

That is why I said, in my original post in red font, *I am in no way saying this produced a dilute gene or was the background of silver Labradors.*

U. K. Labradors imported into the U.S. after 1916 often had interbred or outcrossed ancestors, sometimes as close as 3 generations back. Hence even if the AKC stud book was closed in 1916 for Labradors, imported Labradors from the U.S. during the years from 1916 through 1937, would occasionally have interbred or crossbred ancestry as close as 3 generations back. But, I will reiterate what I said in my original post: *I am in no way saying this produced a dilute gene or was the background of silver Labradors.*


ErinsEdge said:


> That is not how the silvers were contrived in the US. It is a direction they like to use in the story though but it was not so.


----------

