# RTF-An observation & A Suggestion



## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

I took a job assignment requiring me to be in the N British Isles for a year. As a result I have been too busy for internet forums, and haven't visited RTF for months
I came back to the U.S. a few weeks ago due to the death of a close friends dear mother. I have spent a lot of time on the internet in this time; much of that time spent on RTF
I mostly participate as an observer on the main forum as I don't feel I have the training chops to be of much use. The majority of my posting is done on the sub forum, or septic tank, known as POTUS

My observation is that in the 6 months I've been away POTUS & RTF has lost its edge, and sadly and more importantly that the main forum has lost much of it's expertise.
Best I can figure the reason for many wise experienced posters leaving is due to banning of some and indifference of the others.
The indifference to me is understandable, as I already stated that I felt RTF has lost much of its edge and expertise.

A few years ago training questions were debated & answered by accomplished Amateurs such as Jim Pickering, Captain Jack and competition pros like Christie Wilder and Angie Becker. Health and breeding questions were answered by knowledgeable experienced experts such as Erinsedge or Melanie Foster
The banning is an unknown mystery for me in that I don't know the reasons for the banning Only those banned and the janitor {and possibly a man & woman from Wisconsin} would be privy to those facts.
I was somewhat surprised at the results of the recent Amnesty poll, where the majority voted "NO" on amnesty

My surprise stems from the fact that I don't understand the usefulness of censorship; which is in effect what the banning results in. It's the internet folks!! What is said on here really can't harm you Grow a thicker skin folks. To me it would be worth it to read 20 insulting or frivolous comments from any of the six ex posters listed above for the possibility of finding that helpful tip that could help me to solve a problem in my training or possibly enhance the health or well being of my pet.

Ask yourselves if you feel that RTF is a better or worse resource without the input of the 6 ex posters referred to; as well as the numerous others who have been banned or quit posting due to indifference. I would argue that the major asset of a resource like RTF is the collective wisdom of its participants; without that you have nothing. However Im aware it is the janitors asset to do with it as he pleases. If the banned don't like it they can either grovel for forgiveness or create a better mousetrap

In my time off I have randomly checked the credentials of posters on recent threads and compared them to posters on some older threads. The difference was substantial. Nature abhors a vacuum, so without the input of the old experts you have some wannabes with a SR Hunter or couple of Jr passes offering up their solutions. There have been recent threads about supposed solutions to problems at the line; simple research reveals that the poster is still not having success while muddling around in middle or lower level Hunt Tests This wouldn't have happened & would have been exposed on the old RTF 
IMO the resource is markedly diminished due to the absence of these folks. Apparently the rationale for banning is to promote a more peanutty atmosphere. If you look at the recent abuse heaped on Jennifer Henion by some on a thread dealing with a humorous youtube video of a guy yelling at his out of control dog and TooTalls less than peanutty treatment in the LeanMac thread I would say it appears that the peanut rule can be randomly applied, depending on who is involved. I sort of saw the need for both of those posters to get slapped around a bit, and would definitely not advocate any sanctions.
Monday Ill be heading back across the big pond for a few months, hopefully upon my return RTF will have welcomed in some new and old wisdom.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

have a nice trip


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm not arguing with your point, just also making an observation.

There still is a good number of experienced dog people that post on here often. If I have a question, I feel I'll get a decent answer from somebody, just have to sift through the replies and make my own decision about who is right. It may take a new member a little while to figure out who these people are, but they're out there.

RTF is still a great site and I'm thankful to have the resource.


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## wckrishet (Mar 26, 2013)

If some of those you mentioned were truly interested in helping rather than arguing a point i am pretty sure that some if them would be welcomed back. So really isn't it their choice not to particeapate. Knowledge is good but wisdom is better.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Captain Jack left on his own ( over dog food ) What a wast, I also liked Angie and Melanie. I little drama once in a while is just plain fun.

Keith


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

So you believe "slapping around" the ones you don't like is a good use of this forum? As mentioned, some of the "favorites" left on their own, one is not training dogs anymore, and some were just plain nasty. As you said, it's the Internet. Take what you can from it and move on. If the only comments appreciated are from a certain group the discussion will get pretty boring. Bon Voyage.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

How about letting Fred & PacLeader back?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

what's that phrase or saying someone posted a few years ago? goes something like, In the beginning you know nothing and try to learn everything then, (at the most annoying stage) you think you know everything and share all of your knowledge. As you keep on going you finally realize you know almost nothing. By the time you know something worth sharing your probably due to retire.... 

I think too many folks who post a lot anymore are in that (think you know everything) stage. The slap-downs were common not because of any dislike for a person but, to help them move forward. Slap downs often move the person on to the correct (realize you know nothing) stage.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Happens every summer, folks are out training their dogs. A lot more participation during the cold weather months.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Have a safe trip.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Just like in dog training, one good correction should change behavior. Constant low level nagging just destroys attitude.

/Paul


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

2tall said:


> So you believe "slapping around" the ones you don't like is a good use of this forum? As mentioned, some of the "favorites" left on their own, one is not training dogs anymore, and some were just plain nasty. As you said, it's the Internet. Take what you can from it and move on. If the only comments appreciated are from a certain group the discussion will get pretty boring. Bon Voyage.


Carol, I don't know you, but I know you've been around for a good long while, and your comments demonstrate kindness and self-deprecation that perhaps don't work to your benefit and that some others could maybe consider sometimes. You are ballast to a top-heavy ship with lots of (hot) wind (air) in its sails.

I hope that sometimes you use the PM feature to deliver a pithy two-word message. I don't know if it would make you feel any better--but it makes me feel better to imagine it!!!

RTF will weather this storm, lull, whatever. There are too many good people (still) here, and the good ones who are gone are contributing in some other way in a medium more suited to them. It's all good.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Just like in dog training, one good correction should change behavior. Constant low level nagging just destroys attitude.
> 
> /Paul


People aren't dogs.

That said, sir, I always pay attention to your advice on dogs.

It's all good.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> what's that phrase or saying someone posted a few years ago? goes something like, In the beginning you know nothing and try to learn everything then, (at the most annoying stage) you think you know everything and share all of your knowledge. As you keep on going you finally realize you know almost nothing. By the time you know something worth sharing your probably due to retire....
> 
> I think too many folks who post a lot anymore are in that (think you know everything) stage. The slap-downs were common not because of any dislike for a person but, to help them move forward. Slap downs often move the person on to the correct (realize you know nothing) stage.


I would add one more category - those who have known so much for so long that they have forgotten what it was like to know you didn't know, while desperately wanting to know. Not knowing something doesn't make you stupid, it just makes you a beginner. Training your first dog is a lot like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together without the picture; it's hard when you really don't know what it is supposed to look like when you are through.

I fully expect to get told I am wrong every time I post something on here (it certainly happens a lot when I am training) and that's the way I learn and get forced to think about alternate approaches. But the ones I really appreciate are those folks - and I have at least three - who can tell me I am being a dumba$$ about something without calling me one. That difference is significant, at least to me, and I suspect to several others on this forum. 

JMHO, YMMV.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> The slap-downs were common not because of any dislike for a person but, to help them move forward. Slap downs often move the person on to the correct (realize you know nothing) stage.


o.k. happy, just remember when we meet, i will "only be trying to help"!;-)

how big an ol' boy are you anyway?:razz:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

luvalab said:


> People aren't dogs.
> 
> That said, sir, I always pay attention to your advice on dogs.
> 
> It's all good.


Thats true. Dogs learn with a good correction. Most people don't 

/Paul


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Participation is a privilege, not a right.
The banished were sent off for their refusal to honor the privilege.
The janitor offered the banished multiple opportunities to change their behavior. 
They did not, and they suffered the consequences.

There was a poll on this issue and the members of RTF voted by a margin of over 2 to 1 in favor of not having the banished return.
However, it seems that some are unwilling to accept by the decision of the janitor and the desires of the majority.


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## uplandbird (Mar 21, 2013)

Thats true. Dogs learn with a good correction. Most people don't 

Haha how true. 

Im a newbie and don't know any of the people that have been banned. 
I wonder how many people left because of the banned rips and comments. 
I just wonder how much they could have been a benefit to RTF, we'll never know.
CONSTRUCTIONAL CRITICISM is welcome.
Personal attacks and plain nastiness should not be allowed


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

luvalab said:


> People aren't dogs.
> 
> That said, sir, I always pay attention to your advice on dogs.
> 
> It's all good.



I agree ,people aren't dogs but we learn the same way....I was a safety leader for several years and the one thing that still sticks in my mind from all the training I got was , what it takes for people to make a change in their behavior...It went like this " it takes a significant emotional event to cause that change to occur"..As gundog stated a firm correction will some times shock people into reality and cause a change ...nagging doesn't work on people either....Steve S


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Participation is a privilege, not a right.
> The banished were sent off for their refusal to honor the privilege.
> The janitor offered the banished multiple opportunities to change their behavior.
> They did not, and they suffered the consequences.
> ...


Technically we have over 5k users and only a few hundred votes on that thread. That's roughly only 4% of the rtf population that voted. Therefore you can't really say "the members" are in favor of doing anything. Course you may just be getting conditioned to in your state. How you coming on turning in your guns and learning to smoke pot? 



/Paul


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Technically we have over 5k users and only a few hundred votes on that thread. That's roughly only 4% of the rtf population that voted.
> /Paul


The world is governed by those who show up.

Amy Dahl


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Technically we have over 5k users and only a few hundred votes on that thread. That's roughly only 4% of the rtf population that voted. Therefore you can't really say "the members" are in favor of doing anything. Course you may just be getting conditioned to in your state. *How you coming on turning in your guns and learning to smoke pot? *
> 
> 
> 
> /Paul


This is why we need to show up ,like Amy said....The old saying of the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" still holds true...We need to make more noise if we are to see things continue as is or go to pot as some would like to see...Steve S


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

As someone else said, it's summer time. People are out training dogs, taking the family on vacation and such so participation is down. Happens every year.

In the winter more people post, there's more content but there's also more snarkyness as people get cabin fever.

I agree that some needed to go. I also agree that RTF is not what it once was, both for experienced training advice and just the atmosphere of the place. In part, IMO, because some have left for one reason or another that added content and flavor to the board, a handful of classic/mainstays of RTF have passed, and there are WAY more thin skinned members over the last couple of years that sick the mods on posters at the drop of a hat.

Like everything else, there is an ebb and flow to RTF. You either ride the tide or get out of the water.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> .
> However, it seems that some are unwilling to accept by the decision of the janitor and the desires of the majority.


Hey, thats just like Government! We the People- vote- and no matter what we vote on or against- the SC over rules what the majority wants- Look at CA! 
Oops- gee maybe that should go on potus.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

afdahl said:


> The world is governed by those who show up.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Yup! And the rest spend eternity pissin' & moanin". 

JS


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

This is perhaps the most useless thread of all time.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

RookieTrainer said:


> I would add one more category - *those who have known so much for so long *that they have forgotten what it was like to know you didn't know, while desperately wanting to know. Not knowing something doesn't make you stupid, it just makes you a beginner. Training your first dog is a lot like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together without the picture; it's hard when you really don't know what it is supposed to look like when you are through.
> 
> I fully expect to get told I am wrong every time I post something on here (it certainly happens a lot when I am training) and that's the way I learn and get forced to think about alternate approaches. But the ones I really appreciate are those folks - and I have at least three - who can tell me I am being a dumba$$ about something without calling me one. That difference is significant, at least to me, and I suspect to several others on this forum.
> 
> JMHO, YMMV.


Another category is those that have known so much for so long that they think that they are the only ones that know anything. 

They must be obeyed or else...


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> This is perhaps the most useless thread of all time.


I don't know... Are we talking RTF? Or all of the web?

It is raining, and I am doing school work. That's my excuse.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> "Junior Modding", "Backseat Modding", or "Forum copping" can refer negatively to the behavior of ordinary users who take a moderator-like tone in criticizing other members."



I have noticed more than a healthy amount of this going on by a few...........So from now on when you see me post BM to a quoted passage...be carefull you don't always confuse it with the generic BS which of course it may also be

john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> This is why we need to show up ,like Amy said....The old saying of the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" still holds true...We need to make more noise if we are to see things continue as is or go to pot as some would like to see...Steve S


Well we could break it down this way. 4% of RTF had strong feelings to vote one way or another. The other 96% were indifferent. If we focus on the 4%, 3% were adamant against letting the banned have amnesty. Clearly that was a strong opinion among those 3% and its safe to say anyone against amnesty voted. 

That being the case, the 96% would fall into the 1% side leaving us with 97% for amnesty and 3% against. A complete landslide for amnesty. 

My finance guy hates me...

/Paul


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Technically we have over 5k users and only a few hundred votes on that thread. That's roughly only 4% of the rtf population that voted. Therefore you can't really say "the members" are in favor of doing anything. Course you may just be getting conditioned to in your state. How you coming on turning in your guns and learning to smoke pot?
> 
> 
> 
> /Paul


That right there is hilarious, in a kind and caring way though.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Four pages and both Fallon and Shih have weighed in.

This thread either needs to pick up some speed or be left by all to slowly die. 

Poll, anyone?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

luvalab said:


> Four pages and both Fallon and Shih have weighed in.
> 
> *This thread either needs to pick up some speed or be left by all to slowly die. *
> 
> Poll, anyone?


The correct or incorect, good or bad, consequence of the lamentations of the OP...........


john


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well we could break it down this way. 4% of RTF had strong feelings to vote one way or another. The other 96% were indifferent. If we focus on the 4%, 3% were adamant against letting the banned have amnesty. Clearly that was a strong opinion among those 3% and its safe to say anyone against amnesty voted.
> 
> That being the case, the 96% would fall into the 1% side leaving us with 97% for amnesty and 3% against. A complete landslide for amnesty.
> 
> ...


Totally bad logic. The 96% are for the status quo, which is Chris decides


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

BBnumber1 said:


> Totally bad logic. The 96% are for the status quo, which is Chris decides


 Little early to be hitting the pipe David...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Little early to be hitting the pipe David...


He is on vacation, it is hot and I am sure beer has been consumed. Hard to do ciphering with a good buzz on.


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## forhair (Feb 4, 2013)

Personally, I like variety. If someone who "doesn't know anything," gives me a good idea that just happens to work, I'm as happy as a hooker at the high roller table. I think it's true for any discipline. Of course a bit of salt in a fresh wound adds a bit of entertainment, as well. 

What the heck is keeping you so busy in the N. British Isles that you don't have time for a doggy forum? Anyway, have a safe journey back. I'm sure there is alot of value in your observations.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> This is perhaps the most useless thread of all time.



My apologies. Your were (as the kids say) SOOO totally right.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

As worthless as the amnesty poll. Doesn't matter! So move on and post up some training threads if everyone is supposedly out training.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> ... RTF is not what it once was, both for experienced training advice and just the atmosphere of the place. In part, IMO, because some have left for one reason or another that added content and flavor to the board, a handful of classic/mainstays of RTF have passed, and *there are WAY more thin skinned members over the last couple of years that sick the mods on posters at the drop of a hat.*


So true....reminds me of the good ole days of the "Bait O Lympics" where it became a sport to annoy certain whiney, thin-skinned members, mostly internet heros, mainly by calling them out on their, ahem, exaggerations/resume padding. You got a bronze medal if your slap resulted in one of them tattling on you or complaining about you to a moderator. Silver medals were for being threatened with lawsuits (rallying cry of white trash everywhere "I'll SUE YOU!") and the Olympic Gold Medal winning Master Baiters were the ones that received death threats.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Julie R. said:


> So true....reminds me of the good ole days of the "Bait O Lympics" where it became a sport to annoy certain whiney, thin-skinned members, mostly internet heros, mainly by calling them out on their, ahem, exaggerations/resume padding. You got a bronze medal if your slap resulted in one of them tattling on you or complaining about you to a moderator. Silver medals were for being threatened with lawsuits (rallying cry of white trash everywhere "I'll SUE YOU!") and the Olympic Gold Medal winning Master Baiters were the ones that received death threats.


Now that is funny.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

duk4me said:


> Now that is funny.


That's not what your lawyer said;-)


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

huntinman said:


> That's not what your lawyer said;-)


Careful you know I have em in my family. lol


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

"Junior Modding", "Backseat Modding", or "Forum copping" can refer negatively to the behavior of ordinary users who take a moderator-like tone in criticizing other members." 

Fallon made this quote in an earlier post. I don't know where it came from. It wasn't attributed. Maybe another thread?
It rings true however.
BTW Smillerdvm, as to your OP. Potus and RTF have always been cliquish. The best part of banning has always been to watch them eat their own. 
Someone mentioned the woo-woo bird....JD


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

JDogger said:


> "Junior Modding", "Backseat Modding", or "Forum copping" can refer negatively to the behavior of ordinary users who take a moderator-like tone in criticizing other members."
> 
> Fallon made this quote in an earlier post. I don't know where it came from. *It wasn't attributed*. Maybe another thread?
> It rings true however.
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum#Moderators

Sorry, Look under 2.1.1

john


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Hey. Im a good baiter. I bait my wifes hook, nephews, her grandsons. So I think Im a Master Baiter


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Brad said:


> Hey. Im a good baiter. I bait my wifes hook, nephews, her grandsons. So I think Im a Master Baiter


Where is Bait, anyway? I don't know him from Adam, but I think he was nice and talked about dogs.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

john fallon said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum#Moderators
> 
> Sorry, Look under 2.1.1
> 
> john


Thank you John, I'll bookmark that link, JD


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

Did I say cliquish? Sorry, that might have been an understatement....JD


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Little early to be hitting the pipe David...


Swimmin by, bait just don't look tasty enough. G'night


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

smillerdvm said:


> The majority of my posting is done on the sub forum, or septic tank, known as POTUS


There is a Civics lesson of sorts to be had on POTUS - I would venture the moderates/conservatives who actually are can claim credentials vastly superior to those on the main forum. 



> Jim Pickering,


In case you missed it, Jim was a finalist at the recent NARC. As someone who trains his own dogs that is a full time endeavor unto itself. I miss Jim on the investing threads we used to have on POTUS. 



> My surprise stems from the fact that I don't understand the usefulness of censorship; which is in effect what the banning results in.


I don't either - but we don't have a say in that.................



> If you look at the recent abuse heaped on Jennifer Henion by some on a thread dealing with a humorous youtube video of a guy yelling at his out of control dog and TooTalls less than peanutty treatment in the LeanMac thread I would say it appears that the peanut rule can be randomly applied, depending on who is involved. I sort of saw the need for both of those posters to get slapped around a bit, and would definitely not advocate any sanctions.


I thought Paul's remark was an instant classic . 



> Monday Ill be heading back across the big pond for a few months, hopefully upon my return RTF will have welcomed in some new and old wisdom.


Have a safe trip - tell us when you get back how socialism is working for the Brits .


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

luvalab said:


> Where is Bait, anyway? I don't know him from Adam, but I think he was nice and talked about dogs.


I believe he is now known as Honey Badger.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Little early to be hitting the pipe David...


Said every jealous person.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Becky Mills said:


> I believe he is now known as Honey Badger.


You Bunch Pompas jackarses!!!!

There are more inportant things in life besided dog knowledge!!

Take Miss Mills for example.. Pretty knowlageble with the dogs,, but,,, one time I posted a Hunting picture that included a clasic SXS shotgun..

Miss Mills replied,, and knew the make and Model of that Winchester 21!!

I got all goosebumpy,, and will never for get it...

In Fact,,,,, If I was Younger,,,,,,, )

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Some of the best food recipts I have ever recieved,, came from this site..

(Thank You Miss Cleo)

Gooser


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> You Bunch Pompas jackarses!!!!
> 
> There are more inportant things in life besided dog knowledge!!
> 
> ...


Down boy missgooseee ain't going put up with that Bless Your Heart


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

How many of you experts fixed yer 150,000 dollar dog truck because of trouble shooting threads as to repairs???

HUMMMMMM????

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What about Eds Red???

(Not Dr Eds hair tonic)

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And the OP is worried about folks gettin picked on!

Gooser


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Gooser, hate to bust your bubble but I don't think that was me.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> What about Eds Red???
> 
> (Not Dr Eds hair tonic)
> 
> Gooser


Dr. Ed got one of those red headed goldens from Melanie? I am sure that Holland would like that if it was a "she".... Charlie Brown had a red headed girlfriend.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

moosegooser said:


> and the op is worried about folks gettin picked on!
> 
> Gooser


ikr???????????????


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

The OP mentioned Wisconsin folk.

Here is our addition to this thread, you know, to make it complete!!;-)



Now, off to "muddle!!"


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

road kill said:


> The OP mentioned Wisconsin folk.
> 
> Here is our addition to this thread, you know, to make it complete!!;-)
> 
> ...


If memory serves... Didn't the OP bestow upon you the title of "Wizard of Wisconsin"? ;-)


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

road kill said:


> The OP mentioned Wisconsin folk.
> 
> Here is our addition to this thread, you know, to make it complete!!;-)
> 
> ...


Hey! Who cut the cheese?:razz:


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

huntinman said:


> If memory serves... Didn't the OP bestow upon you the title of "Wizard of Wisconsin"? ;-)


Why yes Bill, I believe he/she did!


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## TimFenstermacher (Sep 9, 2012)

road kill said:


> The OP mentioned Wisconsin folk.
> 
> Here is our addition to this thread, you know, to make it complete!!;-)
> 
> ...


How appropriate since there is plenty of whine here to go with that!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

why do you WI guys die your cheese?
Pure Vermont Cabot Cheddar is white.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Never had cheese from Green Bay Packers..Isn't that who makes it? All of ours comes from Oregon or, I buy Bechers from Seattle- nothing touches Bechers.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Awesome when suggestion threads turn into tips on cheese.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

> The difference was substantial. Nature abhors a vacuum, so without the input of the old experts *you have some wannabes with a SR Hunter or couple of Jr passes offering up their solutions*



Thats been going on for quite a few years now and they've successfully drown out folks with real work experince..They just reguirgitate info they've read on this forum in a book or on a DVD.....You just have to seperate the wheat from the chaff..EE is a useful tool in recent times for just that.

I've subverted this issue by PM'ing people whose opinions I value directly on matters of training


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

David Lo Buono said:


> Thats been going on for quite a few years now and they've successfully drown out folks with real work experince..They just reguirgitate info they've read on this forum in a book or on a DVD.....You just have to seperate the wheat from the chaff..EE is a useful tool in recent times for just that.
> 
> I've subverted this issue by PM'ing people whose opinions I value directly on matters of training


Agreed good post.


----------



## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Never had cheese from Green Bay Packers..Isn't that who makes it? All of ours comes from Oregon or, I buy Bechers from Seattle- nothing touches Bechers.


Besqueeze me? Can you say Cougar Gold??

Beats any Wisconsin curds any day regards

Bubba


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

David Lo Buono said:


> Thats been going on for quite a few years now and they've successfully drown out folks with real work experince..They just reguirgitate info they've read on this forum in a book or on a DVD.....You just have to seperate the wheat from the chaff..EE is a useful tool in recent times for just that.
> 
> I've subverted this issue by PM'ing people whose opinions I value directly on matters of training


JMO, I agree this works, and I don't think it's wrong--but it keeps the rest of us who have used the forum at large from continuing to learn.

EE is THE BEST handlerstalking tool... Unless the person you are stalking has 60 years of experience, but only entered a few stakes once they turned 80... Or HRC. Google is still a friend o' mine.


----------



## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

David Lo Buono said:


> Thats been going on for quite a few years now and they've successfully drown out folks with real work experince..They just reguirgitate info they've read on this forum in a book or on a DVD.....You just have to seperate the wheat from the chaff..EE is a useful tool in recent times for just that.
> 
> I've subverted this issue by PM'ing people whose opinions I value directly on matters of training


This is simple minded and just plain wrong.

I have been running Springer's in FT and HT for 13 yrs and training dogs for about 17 and didn't even know what EE was until 4 years ago when I thought I might try a Retriever test. Now back to the show.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> This is simple minded and just plain wrong.
> 
> I have been running Springer's in FT and HT for 13 yrs and training dogs for about 17 and didn't even know what EE was until 4 years ago when I thought I might try a Retriever test. Now back to the show.


Spaniels are cool--my dad had a springer, a good friend now has a Boykin. Cool as they are, and as valuable as those 13 years were in terms of dog training in general and spaniel training in particular, it's not quite R(TF)etriever training. no disrespect intended! Please don't be. I don't have the RTF clout to offend (thank goodness). I'm just saying.

Since you don't go by your name....... I can't stalk you on EE anyway. So not a problem.


----------



## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Ya you are maybe right Springer's don't stand on a hill to see there marks.
Keith


----------



## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

RTF and Kraft Cheese n' Mac. They are the Cheesist!! 

JD


----------



## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...go train your dogs.


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

A full page later and this thread is even more useless


----------



## forhair (Feb 4, 2013)

I misplaced my wooden leg. Does anyone other than me care?


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Never had cheese from Green Bay Packers..Isn't that who makes it? All of ours comes from Oregon or, I buy Bechers from Seattle- nothing touches Bechers.


Paul - it's Beechers, lots of things not to like about their cheese, but they do have one or two that are not to bad - the owner is a tremendous promoter . 



Bubba said:


> Besqueeze me? Can you say Cougar Gold??
> 
> Beats any Wisconsin curds any day regards
> 
> Bubba


Bubba, I've tried a lot of Costco cheese including Cougar Gold - a lot of it has been fed to the chickens - their cheese buyer knows nothing of cheese . But it's cheap , though not the Cougar gold.



Ken Bora said:


> why do you WI guys die your cheese?
> Pure Vermont Cabot Cheddar is white.


Please see comment above - All cheese turns color with aging including Goat cheese - finding the right spot in that process is the key to good tasting cheese.

I have some award winning Goat cheese that is so hard it can only be used in soups, but is pretty cool there.


----------



## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I learned a lot about cheese and as Woody said, you have to in joy the little thing.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Marvin S said:


> .....Please see comment above - All cheese turns color with aging including Goat cheese - finding the right spot in that process is the key to good tasting cheese.
> 
> .


so your saying you do not know why they die the cheese in WI?


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Besqueeze me? Can you say Cougar Gold??
> 
> Beats any Wisconsin curds any day regards
> 
> Bubba


God bless you and your pigmy black dogs for the correction. My niece just graduated from WSU with some special honorable this and that in chemical and biological engineering honors and landed a job making more than me with a fine signing bonus. She's in Paris right now spending her signing bonus before starting her first real job. I'd swear the kid must have been adopted. And yes, there is no better cheese in the entire world than Cougar Gold. Bechers is fantastic because I can buy it at Costco. Cougar Gold is a treat of treats.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Btw, thank Mr. Ed Barr for squaring my niece up at the paper mill.


----------



## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/

Maybe it's time to move this thread...JD


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Hey Marvin, you ever had the goat cheese made in Fall City? That Herb Farm place made it kinda famous. Then again, I hear it plugs up the old guys


----------



## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

> This is simple minded and just plain wrong.


Check yo'self before ya wreck yo'self....because throw'n around insults is bad for yo healf....

Only a simple mind would call another a "simple mind" in the first phrase in their retort.....I'm sorry you were offended that your immeasurable amount of spaniel experience was disregarded on a RETRIVER site....some how life will go on


----------



## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

David Lo Buono said:


> Check yo'self before ya wreck yo'self....because throw'n around insults is bad for yo healf....
> 
> Only a simple mind would call another a "simple mind" in the first phrase in their retort.....I'm sorry you were offended that your immeasurable amount of spaniel experience was disregarded on a RETRIVER site....some how life will go on


Wacky is as Wacky dose  It's not rock science as some seam to think it is.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Wacky is as Wacky dose  It's not rock science as some seam to think it is.


Are you sure its not geology?


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Would somone explain to Gooser how EE provides ANY sort of information thatwould help a person decide if a person posting TRAINING advice is worth listen to??

I cannot for the life of me figger this way of thinking out!

In fact,, I think it is VERY narrow minded!


If you come here asking for advice,, and dont have enough where with all to decide for yourself what makes sense,, then resort to EE to see how much success a person has that may be giving you advice,, well I guess all I can say,, is you need to forget the internet,, get off your arse,, go join a group of experienced TRAINERS and get first hand instruction and information..

I bet you just MIGHT find out that there are a LOT of very nice dogs out there, that have never run a HT or a FT ( or run FT's but because of how hard it is to place ,,they just havent.. but still have experience and VERY nice dogs..),, and their owners are very dedicated dog folks with TONs of experience and knowledge..

To me,,, It just like sayin that Wisconsin has the best and only cheeze..

An OPEN mind is a wonderful tool..

Gooser


----------



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> Would somone explain to Gooser how EE provides ANY sort of information thatwould help a person decide if a person posting TRAINING advice is worth listen to??
> 
> I cannot for the life of me figger this way of thinking out!
> 
> ...


Yep , You are so right!! ......there are trainers out there that do not run many, if any, tests or trials, that do a FINE job of training dogs AND teaching people how to train their own dogs


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Would somone explain to Gooser how EE provides ANY sort of information thatwould help a person decide if a person posting TRAINING advice is worth listen to??
> 
> I cannot for the life of me figger this way of thinking out!
> 
> ...


I agree, and Gooser the perfect example is a person you are training with now and then. A person you have typed you were a skeered (your spelling) to go train with. A person who you have typed is the best YOU have worked with and that she still takes you to task. She has let you advance your dogs. I just typed her name into the EE search. I had to check some of your old posts to make sure I spelled her name right. You know what EE says of this wonderful mentor of yours, and a few other respected RTF posters?????
*Your search produced no results*


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

It also produces results of guys whom have stood on the line with their dogs many times but, rarely stand in the mud with their dogs all week long.


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> I agree, and Gooser the perfect example is a person you are training with now and then. A person you have typed you were a skeered (your spelling) to go train with. A person who you have typed is the best YOU have worked with and that she still takes you to task. She has let you advance your dogs. I just typed her name into the EE search. I had to check some of your old posts to make sure I spelled her name right. You know what EE says of this wonderful mentor of yours, and a few other respectedre RTF posters?????
> *Your search produced no results*


Wait, what? You mean they ran dogs before EE? Are you saying there are still clubs that don't use EE! That damn swishy must be to blame.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Wait, what? You mean they ran dogs before EE? Are you saying there are still clubs that don't use EE! That damn swishy must be to blame.


not just clubs, entire venues.
the SwishMan and I worked together to have the first (and so far only) NAHRA Field test hosted on EE about a hundred years ago this very weekend past actualy. We to call it off due to lack of entry. Irony???


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

If someone is suddenly posting copious amounts of advice that the imply is based on experience, but a quick check of EE shows 20 junior tests in the last 3 years with the same dog, it doesn't tell you everything, or even very much, but it tells you something. What a person does with that information is up to them.

For me, EE helps me put on my Skeptics Hat. Or maybe they wear robes. Whatever. 

The world is full of bs artists, and I'm pretty gullible. I need all the search tools I can get.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Becky Mills said:


> I believe he is now known as Honey Badger.


Miss Becky, I truly need to meet you some day. You have a wicked sense of humor and run the correct dog breed. What a wonderful combination.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

luvalab said:


> If someone is suddenly posting copious amounts of advice that the imply is based on experience, but a quick check of EE shows 20 junior tests in the last 3 years with the same dog, it doesn't tell you everything, or even very much, but it tells you something. What a person does with that information is up to them.
> 
> For me, EE helps me put on my Skeptics Hat. Or maybe they wear robes. Whatever.
> 
> The world is full of bs artists, and I'm pretty gullible. I need all the search tools I can get.


So,, let them post!!! Let them voice opinion!

it spawns debate!

Maybe someone will follow and voice an opposing opinion, making others think, get involved in the topic.

That person who has just run a bunch of juniors MIGHT have experiences that MAY help those that haven't..

Do you really favor a discussion board where only approve experts give advice?

Debate can be valuable for EVERYONE

JMHDAO


----------



## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

If you guys can't see the merits of a database that gives you massive amounts of statistical information on judges dogs and handlers Then I don't know what to tell you. I am not saying that all the information is infallible nor Subjective But it is information and lots of it And information is power How you choose to interpret that information is up to you... But denying the fact that entry express is a useful tool "sifting" tool is absurd


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Where are these tough questions that should be answered by the salty old pros which require research for validating their answer? 

You guys can't be talking about the "what to name my dog" or resolving issues with the "My 10 week old isn't getting hand signals down right".

Or my personal favorite: "Can I train my 9 year old whipabeaglechesador to be a great duck dog"


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

badbullgator said:


> A full page later and this thread is even more useless


It's picken" up now!


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

HNTFSH said:


> Where are these tough questions that should be answered by the salty old pros which require research for validating their answer?
> 
> You guys can't be talking about the "what to name my dog" or resolving issues with the "My 10 week old isn't getting hand signals down right".
> 
> Or my personal favorite:* "Can I train my 9 year old whipabeaglechesador to be a great duck dog"*




First we need to know a little more back ground,What program are you following ?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> A full page later and this thread is even more useless


I disagree. I now have a variety of new cheeses to try that I've never tasted before. I love cheese, but have little to zero experience in how its made, how to rate it. I mostly just know how to eat it.

/Paul


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I disagree. I now have a variety of new cheeses to try that I've never tasted before. I love cheese, but have little to zero experience in how its made, how to rate it. I mostly just know how to eat it.
> 
> /Paul


And like Stan how to cut it.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> So,, let them post!!! Let them voice opinion!
> 
> it spawns debate!
> 
> ...


I'm not one to censor anyone--all-swim! Everyone in the pool! No running on the deck, no artificial flotation devices.

Sometimes, I vet my sources. Sometimes it's with EE. What's the big deal?


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

HNTFSH said:


> Where are these tough questions that should be answered by the salty old pros which require research for validating their answer?
> 
> You guys can't be talking about the "what to name my dog" or resolving issues with the "My 10 week old isn't getting hand signals down right".
> 
> Or my personal favorite: "Can I train my 9 year old whipabeaglechesador to be a great duck dog"


That's a really good question. 

Also, whatever happened to the dog with "the mother of all boils" on its "wee wee"?

I'm gunning for 1000 posts before I seek asylum from The Cheese Forum. I'll try to think of a good training question.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I disagree. I now have a variety of new cheeses to try that I've never tasted before. I love cheese, but have little to zero experience in how its made, how to rate it. I mostly just know how to eat it.
> 
> /Paul


And we now know that the retriever world evidently began in 2003 with the advent of EE


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I disagree. I now have a variety of new cheeses to try that I've never tasted before. I love cheese, but have little to zero experience in how its made, how to rate it. I mostly just know how to eat it.
> 
> /Paul


It's all about your palate - folks preference in cheeses can run the gamut & many times is influenced by it's pairing - 

I don't like Cougar Gold, used to like Tillamook until I was introduced to higher end cheese. Now troll the Farmers Markets & sample the product, on occasion buying something that tastes good.

If they don't own their own animals I generally don't buy their product. 

High butterfat animals produce the best cheese - most cheddar can be bought for less than $2 a pound in 100 pound blocks, smoked & macaroni cheese.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Until I was about 10 years old ,this was the only cheese choices I knew of ...hard to beat some trailer park cheese.
When mom brought home the Sharp cheddar flavor ...I knew I had done something right. Point and shoot.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Shawn White said:


> Until I was about 10 years old ,this was the only cheese choices I knew of ...hard to beat some trailer park cheese.
> When mom brought home the Sharp cheddar flavor ...I knew I had done something right. Point and shoot.
> 
> 
> ...


Man you didn't know what you were missing!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I love a good rustic goat cheese. There is a place up the road that makes cheese from some weird buffalo. Been meaning to get there too.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

huntinman said:


> Man you didn't know what you were missing!
> 
> View attachment 14054


Thats "holiday cheese" Only got that fer holidays...


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Shawn White said:


> [/B]
> 
> First we need to know a little more back ground,What program are you following ?


Program? I don't need no Hunting Champion. Just a dog that's steady, quiet, finds all the ducks, and can take hand signals.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

HNTFSH said:


> Program? I don't need no Hunting Champion. Just a dog that's steady, quiet, finds all the ducks, and can take hand signals.


In that case its simple. Just get a electronic collar strap it on him and say the command ,then hold the red button....he'll figure it out.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Shawn White said:


> In that case its simple. Just get a electronic collar strap it on him and say the command ,then hold the red button....he'll figure it out.


Hey thanks! Sure am glad I found this site! I was thinkin' that would work! ;-)


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I love a good rustic goat cheese. There is a place up the road that makes cheese from some weird buffalo. Been meaning to get there too.


I'm not sure she's playing anymore - don't remember seeing the buffaloes the last time I was by the place - in fact, don't remember seeing any animals at all.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> I'm not sure she's playing anymore - don't remember seeing the buffaloes the last time I was by the place - in fact, don't remember seeing any animals at all.


The sign board was out a few months ago.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

HNTFSH said:


> Program? I don't need no Hunting Champion. Just a dog that's steady, quiet, finds all the ducks, and can take hand signals.


Yeah, you don't need a robot dog.


----------



## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

luvalab said:


> Yeah, you don't need a robot dog.


He's a 'natural'. Retrieving Machine.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

What were we talking about?


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

HNTFSH said:


> He's a 'natural'. Retrieving Machine.


Must be a "Silver" ...their the best ones.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

duk4me said:


> What were we talking about?


Dog cheese.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Cheese + one word to make it legal


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Shawn White said:


> Dog cheese.


lol...Are you qualified to answer that?


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Does a heart good how we can still come together to GDG a thread.......I like cheese.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Pals said:


> Does a heart good how we can still come together to GDG a thread.......I like cheese.


Cheese and whine [email protected] whine.


----------



## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> So,, let them post!!! Let them voice opinion!
> 
> it spawns debate! , , ,, , M&M. , , ,,
> 
> ...


Isn't this kind of the point of the OP? We can't have debate anymore because when someone is being a dumbass and they are called out on it, the "callee" ends up banned. Some people will hold your hand and walk you through a door, others will kick your ass through. IMHDAO we need both around here but then again, we all know the saying about opinions.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

HNTFSH said:


> lol...Are you qualified to answer that?


I've ate a lot of hot dogs with cheese on them. But i don't professionally compete in hot dog eating contests,....so I guess I am not.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Shawn White said:


> I've ate a lot of hot dogs with cheese on them. But i don't professionally compete in hot dog eating contests,....so I guess I am not.



cream cheese, onion and sauerkraut on a dog. mmmmmm


----------



## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

I enjoy CIVIL spirited discussion. Ad hominem attacks are pretty much never helpful. First one to call "stupidhead" loses the argument and my respect. No one, including me, likes being told they are wrong, but I resent name calling and ignore (only reason I ever put anyone ON ignore) those who resort to it.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> cream cheese, onion and sauerkraut on a dog. mmmmmm


I am trying to keep an open mind, but cream cheese belongs on a bagel, or a jelly sandwich (white bread).

Hot dog: Yellow mustard only, Gulden's is best, but French's is fine as well. Sweet pickle relish is acceptable on a poor-quality dog. 

I confess I may need some education and practice on the Chicago dog; I will keep an open mind until I can spend some quality time with a dog-loving native. I hear there could be piccalilly (sp) involved.


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Marvin S said:


> Please see comment above - All cheese turns color with aging including Goat cheese - finding the right spot in that process is the key to good tasting cheese.
> 
> I have some award winning Goat cheese that is so hard it can only be used in soups, but is pretty cool there.



*Why is Wisconsin Cheddar Orange?*



 There's no law that says Wisconsin cheddar has to be orange, but much of it is. While most cheddars coming from Vermont and New York are white, the majority of Wisconsin cheddar is colored. Why? No one knows for sure, but two prevailing theories suggest it's all about marketing.



First of all, what makes cheddar orange? All cheese is naturally white, or off white, or even a golden yellow, depending on the type of milk used. But you'll never find a cow that gives orange milk. The color instead comes from the flavorless Annatto seed, which gives Wisconsin cheddar that pumpkin orange hue.



Sid Cook, fourth-generation owner of Carr Valley Cheese in LaValle, Wis., believes the state's cheddars were tinted orange as far back as the late 1800s. In the early days of Wisconsin cheesemaking, cows dined on carotene-rich pasture, and their milk naturally produced a cheese with a rich golden color. Gradually, some dairies moved their cows off pasture and onto dry feed, with the resulting milk yielding paler cheese. Because consumers already associated the gold color with quality, cheesemakers used Annatto to bring back the color.



Another theory holds that Wisconsin cheesemakers wanted to differentiate their cheddars from those coming from New York, so they used Annatto seed and turned their cheddars orange, using it as their own claim to fame and capturing a portion of the market.



No matter the color - white, yellow or orange -- Wisconsin cheddar rules. Today, a handful of the state's cheesemakers are even turning back the clock and crafting Bandage Wrapped, or Cloth-Bound Cheddar, the way cheddar was made in England before the days of refrigeration. Two of my favorites:


*Eagle Cave Reserve*, made by Meister Cheese near Muscoda -- crafted in 6.5 pound "mini" truckles, and aged 6-9 months, this new cheese on the market is one to watch.
*Cave-Aged Bandage-Wrapped Cheddar* by Willi Lehner, Bleu Mont Dairy, near Blue Mounds. A perennial favorite and award-winner. Can't go wrong with this one.

Both of these cheddars are a natural whitish color and you can find both varieties at Fromagination in Madison. If you're looking for a good aged cheddar, Wisconsin has the corner on that market -- my favorites are: 


10-Year Cheddar, Hook's Cheese in Mineral Point
6-Year Cheddar by Widmer's Cheese Cellars in Theresa
4-Year Cheddar by Carr Valley Cheese in LaValle

All of these cheddars are orange and are widely available in specialty cheese shops. No matter the color, it's hard to go wrong with Wisconsin cheddar.


Posted by cheese underground lady at 6:54 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to Facebook 







*5 comments:*

Mary at LoveTree said... According to international cheese expert, Steven Jenkins,(a.k.a. "Cheese God", "Cheese Guru" "Cheese Wizard"):

"wisconsin cheddar is orange because ALL american cheddars started out orange -- the early immigrant cheesemakers (300 years ago) were dying their milk with annatto or achiote because it was english farmhouse CHESHIRE that created the market (in london) for english farmhouse CHEDDAR from somerset. ALL cheesemakers wanted their cheese to look like CHESHIRE! and cheshire looked that way (orange) because of the vein of iron in the sub-stratum of soil beneath the pastures of cheshire. the grass that grew was infused with the vitamin D from the grass and the soil, and it tinted the milk and the subsequent cheese a natural, very light ORANGE. cheshire-makers were so proficient at cheesemaking, i.e. their cheeses tasted so good, that their cheeses ruled the london market and fetched the highest prices. the customers became inured to seeking the orange-est cheeses. "

A bit more in regard to "orange-izing cow milk"
In regards to dying fluid milk....the Babcock test (which test the true level of butterfat in the milk ) was developed in Wisconsin over one hundred years ago because farmers were paid for their milk based on how "orange/buttery" the milk was, denoting how much butter was in the summer milk. Before the routine use of the Babcock test honest farmers were not getting fair compensation for their milk and dishonest farmers learned how to simmer carrots on the kitchen burner and strain off the liquid, adding it to the fluid milk which dyed the butter fat a pale orange. 
The jersey cow milk that I use from grass fed cows makes for a beautiful creamy orange cheese, at least until the killing freeze, then the milk goes into a deep ivory color once the grass stops growing or once the animals are switched to hay, which, ironically, is when the butterfat is typically the highest.
Sad to think that Wisconsin commodity cheddar market is based on the practie of "duping" the customer.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

luvalab said:


> I am trying to keep an open mind, but cream cheese belongs on a bagel, or a jelly sandwich (white bread).
> 
> *Hot dog: Yellow mustard only, Gulden's is best, but French's is fine as well. * Sweet pickle relish is acceptable on a poor-quality dog.
> 
> I confess I may need some education and practice on the Chicago dog; I will keep an open mind until I can spend some quality time with a dog-loving native. I hear there could be piccalilly (sp) involved.


Right on the money! Polish dogs too!


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

when you come to Seattle you'll find the street venders at all the ball games selling dogs the way I've described. Try it at your next BBQ- btw- onions must be grilled.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> cream cheese, onion and sauerkraut on a dog. mmmmmm


Now that sounds yummy. I am going to try that. With my whine.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

huntinman said:


> Right on the money! Polish dogs too!


I refuse to believe you are from TN.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Pals said:


> Does a heart good how we can still come together to GDG a thread.......I like cheese.


Specifically, Wisconsin Smoked String Cheese.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> when you come to Seattle you'll find the street venders at all the ball games selling dogs the way I've described. Try it at your next BBQ- btw- onions must be grilled.


If you can get it at a (baseball) park, it's probably okay...


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

I like Dutch cheese


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09KL2HUXE6Q

Anyway ,like a I was saying.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

luvalab said:


> I refuse to believe you are from TN.


I'm not really... SC... But lived in Alaska for 21 years and WA state for 5 before coming here 5 years ago. But lots of Midwesterners on my dads side of the family. Michiganders. Then I went and married a girl from NW Ohio the first time around... Anyway, my grandmother on my dads side was a true Midwestern cook. Meat and potatoes, not much spices. I grew up in her home. Now I'm married to a girl from Texas who likes to put flame on everything she eats! She has toned it down a little out of pity for me...


----------



## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

Flying to Oxford MS a few years ago from Grand Cayman. We were forced by weather to put in to Tallahassee for the night. Got a room and asked the desk clerk where to eat. "Why catfish camp, across the road", he replied. Showered and changed, the five sunburned boys wandered across the road to the catfish camp restaurant. 
"What's the special"? we inquired of our waitress. 
"Catfish", she replied,"and shrimp". 
"Whats that come with?" I asked. 
She looked us over and dipped her head, "cheese grits...." (Now I'm not a southern boy, but I've had some grits a few times, but not with cheese.) So I asked, "Cheese grits...what are those like"? 
Well, she looked at us five sunburned boys, flying home from the Caribbean and said, "Oh....kinda like a yeast infection."
Well, we had five specials and flew home the next day.

It's the cheesist regards....JD

PS If that doesn't kill this thread....??


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Butter in a cast iron pan. StArt adding slices of cheddar. Fry till crispy and put on hot garlic bread


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

That's just an rtf observation and suggestion


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> cream cheese, onion and sauerkraut on a dog. mmmmmm


Large women with bad breath and gas come to mind, well anyway if that's how you like them enjoy, who am I to judge.


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

luvalab said:


> I am trying to keep an open mind, but cream cheese belongs on a bagel, or a jelly sandwich (white bread).
> 
> *Hot dog: Yellow mustard only, Gulden's is best, but French's is fine as well. Sweet pickle relish is acceptable on a poor-quality dog.
> 
> *I confess I may need some education and practice on the Chicago dog; I will keep an open mind until I can spend some quality time with a dog-loving native. I hear there could be piccalilly (sp) involved.


Oh Greta, you can't stifle your palate like that. A good old fashion skin on dog with mustard,chilli ( no beans ) onions, black pepper,,,,,,,,,,,,tough to beat a good Coney Island.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Shawn White said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09KL2HUXE6Q
> 
> Anyway ,like a I was saying.




Any of youse remember Eggs?


----------



## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

huntinman said:


> Happens every summer, folks are out training their dogs. A lot more participation during the cold weather months.


Ed Zackery!

When they have more time to commit and comment they will; in the meantime, most of them are making a living.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Golddogs said:


> Oh Greta, you can't stifle your palate like that. A good old fashion skin on dog with mustard,chilli ( no meat ) onions, black pepper,,,,,,,,,,,,tough to beat a good Coney Island.


SURELY . . . you meant (no beans)? I admit some of the stuff they use taste like (no meat) I could recognize, but it did have some kind of texturizers!


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

2tall said:


> SURELY . . . you meant (no beans)? I admit some of the stuff they use taste like (no meat) I could recognize, but it did have some kind of texturizers!


beans it should be. my bad. will edit and then go make one for a snack.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Golddogs said:


> Oh Greta, you can't stifle your palate like that. A good old fashion skin on dog with mustard,chilli ( no beans ) onions, black pepper,,,,,,,,,,,,tough to beat a good Coney Island.


My palate is not stifled... It is elegant.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Where is Dr Kervorkian when we need him?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Just tried this for the first time today. Pretty awesome










/Paul


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm just trying to get us closer to the 20 page mark.

I hope Smiller appreciates all these observations and suggestions.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I'm just trying to get us closer to the 20 page mark.
> 
> I hope Smiller appreciates all these observations and suggestions.


He/she has rowed across the pond leaving this train wreck.;-)


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm still recovering from all the hot dogs I ate last night.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

duk4me said:


> He/she has rowed across the pond leaving this train wreck.;-)


He/She does that even when she's not rowing .


----------



## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Just had time to sit down, for some reason I want cheese and hot dogs. I think, I will throw some chilly and onions on it. LOL


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

road kill said:


> The OP mentioned Wisconsin folk.
> 
> Here is our addition to this thread, you know, to make it complete!!;-)
> 
> ...


You started some training threads claiming to have offer up and take credit for "Roadkills SOLUTION" to some tricky line manner training problems.

You then became indignant when one of the "pelted" people who freely offered you advice, corrected you and said that you had misconstrued their advice. You claimed their post was out of line.

I referred to people offering up advice and solutions that may not be correct and observed that research indicated to me that some of those internet experts that seem to be taking over RTF don't have a stellar performance record on EE. You for example have nearly 10,000 posts and appear to have somewhat of a protected status on RTF. Those factors can tend to make others reticent to call you out. That in turn can give new trainers a feeling of confidence in your viewpoints; particularly when they go unchallenged

Since offering up your "solutions" it appears as if you have not been able to pass any of the intermediate level test you have entered. From what you posted on other social media outlets it appears as if you barely even made it to the "bucket" at your tests. That makes me suspect that your "SOLUTION" may not have been found. If that is the case I pointed out that I believe those who use and accept RTF as a training resource may not have been well served by the peanutty attitude that is being encouraged here. I feel that in the freer wheeling RTF of old that some of the more experienced who no longer post due to disinterest, not liking the new culture, or being banned may have felt more comfortable about calling you out and having a freer dialogue to give opposing viewpoints for the lesser experienced to draw from

You have let the cat out of the bag that you are one of the ones I referred to as Muddling. I don't mean to offend your sensibilities. However if it comes to protecting the sensibilities of thin skinned posters or protecting the newer trainers who use RTF from getting unopposed bad advice, I would think the forum would be better served to get the whole unvarnished truth.


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

smillerdvm said:


> You started some training threads claiming to have offer up and take credit for "Roadkills SOLUTION" to some tricky line manner training problems.
> 
> You then became indignant when one of the "pelted" people who freely offered you advice, corrected you and said that you had misconstrued their advice. You claimed their post was out of line.
> 
> ...


Wow. Really? Your only criteria for someone having acceptable knowledge is Entry Express? 

Did it occur to you that just maybe someone who is starting out and has not got the "pelts" you seem to desire, may have run into a training problem, found a solution with the help of a pro or two and wants to tell people how he is working through it?

As one of the people who has given Roadkill advice (which is, by the way, working *very* well for him so far, and he knows he needs to not run tests until it's straightened out) I freely admit I have no Entry Express "pelts"....feel free to look. I'm a gun dog trainer, who has little time for or interest in chasing ribbons because my weekends are very full either with clients or seminars. I spend an awful lot of time fixing problem dogs, many of those for people who do compete in tests and trials, and line manners is the biggest issue I deal with for them.

Your inference that I (or anyone else) am automatically unqualified to give advice because I don't have a list of "pelts" is insulting and just plain rude.

Lunch time is over....back out to work some dogs until dark (which I am obviously unqualified to do.)


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> Wow. Really? Your only criteria for someone having acceptable knowledge is Entry Express?
> 
> Did it occur to you that just maybe someone who is starting out and has not got the "pelts" you seem to desire, may have run into a training problem, found a solution with the help of a pro or two and wants to tell people how he is working through it?
> 
> ...


My Uncle and his friend grew up stealing his friends Dad's crop duster and joy riding. When he was wealthy enough to own a couple airplanes he had gotten his IFR and Multi-engine ratings. Flew a lot of emergency parts to Alaska in bad weather. 

While he was probably a pretty good pilot in his 20's, I wouldn't have flown with him based upon his credentials. Folks can look him up on the FAA webpage before hiring him to fly equipment or persons. EE is not a tell all yet, it provides something as a decent reference. Sharon, you own a business which has been around for a while and that speaks for itself. You're a Professional trainer. The average Joe like me is not and if I give some advice(which I don't often do) folks can and do look on EE. Heck, sponsors of the website do it! LOL!!! now that there's funny stuff!


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## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Wow. Really? Your only criteria for someone having acceptable knowledge is Entry Express?
> 
> Did it occur to you that just maybe someone who is starting out and has not got the "pelts" you seem to desire, may have run into a training problem, found a solution with the help of a pro or two and wants to tell people how he is working through it?
> 
> ...


Although my experience is limited, I think I'm with you, Sharon. I have very little interest in competing. I have had my dogs to pick up dove for me when I hunt, (and I hunt as much as time will allow) and to lay at my feet when I'm not hunting. If I have time to be in the field and I could be competing or hunting, I'll be hunting. I have other things I'd rather do on weekends during off season and as a photographer, I work many weekends. Just because one doesn't play the games, doesn't mean one has nothing to offer.

I'll add that although no peanut, and as one who enjoys POTUS, I don't particularly enjoy uncivil behavior.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

HPL said:


> Although my experience is limited, I think I'm with you, Sharon. I have very little interest in competing. I have had my dogs to pick up dove for me when I hunt, (and I hunt as much as time will allow) and to lay at my feet when I'm not hunting. If I have time to be in the field and I could be competing or hunting, I'll be hunting. I have other things I'd rather do on weekends during off season and as a photographer, I work many weekends. Just because one doesn't play the games, doesn't mean one has nothing to offer.


This is not about EE... It's about an OP who must be miserable and is doing her best to make others that way as well , plain and simple.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes, one must remember... Competition sets a bar standard. If you never compete, how can you fully assess how high your own bar is set?


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Wow. Really? Your only criteria for someone having acceptable knowledge is Entry Express?
> 
> Did it occur to you that just maybe someone who is starting out and has not got the "pelts" you seem to desire, may have run into a training problem, found a solution with the help of a pro or two and wants to tell people how he is working through it?
> 
> ...


Hi Sharon, and all.

I don't write to defend smvilldvm, I'm sure he's a big boy and can defend himself. But I do feel like I need to defend myself (and sort of affirm/repeat Mr. Happy) to an extent.

You use your real name. Your posts demonstrate dog knowledge based on experience. Your interaction with those long-time posters with "pelts" (not my term, don't really care for it) clearly mark you as a peer. A quick look here http://www.redbranchkennels.net/index.htm provides a good deal of information. If I've looked you up on EE, it was only out of curiosity, but I don't remember. You are transparent. I trust you, pelts or not. If you had training advice for a problem I was having, I would read your posts and think about them seriously. And then do what I felt best, because, um, it's my dog.

Stan/Roadkill has put a good deal of himself and his experience into those 10,000 posts (which is just bizarre to me, but...). I've never felt the need to EE him. His posts are where his "vetting" on training happens to be. If I had a noisy dog, I would read his posts and think about them seriously. And then do what I felt best, because it's my dog. The buck stops with me.

If Labadabadoo2013 suddenly appears with copious amounts of training advice and doesn't include a full name, but includes his dog's registered name or claims to have a kennel name or whatever, I might play detective and use my friends Google and EE along the way. I don't want to dismiss Labadawhoever because I don't recognize him--that would be a waste. I don't want to take his advice wholesale, because that would be stupid.

I don't think the whole EE stalking thing is a big deal. A person has to take some responsibility for figuring out who she trusts and why--because it's her dog, not the internet's or RTF's or Sharon Potter's or Stan's or smillerdvm's...

Just my reasoning, felt I needed to share it. You know, I drive up 39 every year or two on the way to beautiful Bayfield, and I'm always hopeful I'll have a chance to meet and/or train with a real-life internet sensation.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

There is no reason that discussion on RTF cannot be civil, regardless of the qualifications of the poster. 

Saying that people were chased away from RTF because they were denied the freedom to engage in crude, personal attacks makes no sense at all.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> There is no reason that discussion on RTF cannot be civil, regardless of the qualifications of the poster.
> 
> Saying that people were chased away from RTF because they were denied the freedom to engage in crude, personal attacks makes no sense at all.



Ted, You're kind of the "pot calling the kettle black" in this type of conversation. For much of your comments would give no credit to anyone who was less than a National Qualifier.


----------



## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

smillerdvm said:


> I referred to people offering up advice and solutions that may not be correct and observed that research indicated to me that some of those internet experts that seem to be taking over RTF don't have a stellar performance record on EE. You for example have nearly 10,000 posts and appear to have somewhat of a protected status on RTF. Those factors can tend to make others reticent to call you out. That in turn can give new trainers a feeling of confidence in your viewpoints; particularly when they go unchallenged
> 
> I pointed out that I believe those who use and accept RTF as a training resource may not have been well served by the peanutty attitude that is being encouraged here. I feel that in the freer wheeling RTF of old that some of the more experienced who no longer post due to disinterest, not liking the new culture, or being banned may have felt more comfortable about calling you out and having a freer dialogue to give opposing viewpoints for the lesser experienced to draw from
> 
> You have let the cat out of the bag that you are one of the ones I referred to as Muddling. I don't mean to offend your sensibilities. However if it comes to protecting the sensibilities of thin skinned posters or protecting the newer trainers who use RTF from getting unopposed bad advice, I would think the forum would be better served to get the whole unvarnished truth.


Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on what's good, solid, sound advice vs. the bad.

You should come aboard more often and offer up some help for some of these folks who are getting a "crappy" Rx.


----------



## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Ted, You're kind of the "pot calling the kettle black" in this type of conversation. For much of your comments would give no credit to anyone who was less than a National Qualifier.


Very true.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> There is no reason that discussion on RTF cannot be civil, regardless of the qualifications of the poster.
> 
> Saying that people were chased away from RTF because they were denied the freedom to engage in crude, personal attacks makes no sense at all.


There is no reason for crude personal attacks (I don't see anything crude on this thread--besides the obviously sad ability to make a chicago style hotdog) And I believe many of us do indeed check on advice --this is what you posted back in November:*For those of you reading this thread, I suggest you go to:

The AKC Judges Website, http://www.akc.org/judges_directory/, and check to see how often a poster has judged field trials

And

The Entry Express Website, https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedIn/search.aspx and see how often a poster has competed in field trials. 

Then you can see whether the poster has the knowledge and experience to support his/her opinions

​
*
I don't believe EE is the end all be all--as there are people who do not compete and are very talented trainers. There was also a dog world long before EE.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

This thread started with sour milk, turned into a happy muenster, and now has taken a very active turn towards.......???????

Hopefully a rich, salty Stilton.

But we're at a crucial point, people--could turn rotten if we're not careful.... Let's keep the atmosphere conducive to successful cheesemaking!

I'm making some assumptions and boiling this down a bit (I don't mean to offend, just to make a point brief): Ted's expertise seems to be in figuring out how to win. If that's not what someone else is after, he is going to look at Ted's post, consider its usefulness to his situation, and take the appropriate action.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Pals said:


> There is no reason for crude personal attacks (I don't see anything crude on this thread--besides the obviously sad ability to make a chicago style hotdog) And I believe many of us do indeed check on advice --this is what you posted back in November:*For those of you reading this thread, I suggest you go to:
> 
> The AKC Judges Website, http://www.akc.org/judges_directory/, and check to see how often a poster has judged field trials
> 
> ...


Sounds a lot to me that apparently someone needs to have successfully competed in a _Trial_ to fully understand how to properly intro gunfire, intro birds, solid Ob., etc. etc.,.
In other words- if 'ya don't compete and have a showcase full of ribbons, you don't know what you're talking about.

Respectfully-
Entry Express doesn't have a danged thing to do with what someone knows. Would think the _quality_ of a post would tell a story.
Oh well.
No disrespect to anyone.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

This kind of bickering generally occurs in the winter, why now?


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

EdA said:


> This kind of bickering generally occurs in the winter, why now?


Too damn hot outside!


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

EdA said:


> This kind of bickering generally occurs in the winter, why now?


Heat exhaustion ,Doc.


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

EdA said:


> This kind of bickering generally occurs in the winter, why now?



Seasons are all messed up. It's too hot out West and all the rain has gone East. Really messing with everyones' heads.


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

EdA said:


> This kind of bickering generally occurs in the winter, why now?


It's pretty soupy and unstable where I am. Driving an hour or two to get caught in a downpour (again) is not inspiring.

I suppose I could go run some blinds at the park, but standing on a hill with one arm up in the air and electronics in the other would be unwise.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Hate to tell you this kiddos but it hasn't even got hot yet.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Climate change is affecting everything.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

2tall said:


> Climate change is affecting everything.


I think its Dr. Evil.


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Its hot as hades here and we are flash flooding right now (I wish I could send it south to Texas) ........my only excuse is that someone drank all my hard lemonade.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

"Haters got to hate."
At the end of the day, no matter what you post, I'll still be me and YOU will still be you!


Have a lovely day!


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I guess I forgot what my momma taught me. She said the polite thing to do is ignore it when someone "cuts the cheese" .....when the OP did it, I should have politely ignored it.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

duk4me said:


> Hate to tell you this kiddos but it hasn't even got hot yet.


Heat index of close to 100 here . 

I'm sweating like Paula Dean on Oprah.


----------



## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

80% of Stan's posts are from POTUS anyway!!!


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Payback's a biotch, lovely 70 degrees up this way, trained 4 MH dogs, 2 triple setups, 3 crosswind blinds, diversion, poison bird, don't think any of us broke a sweat. RTF coffee break from the real world regards. ;-)

Oh, btw, having seen some of the Nat Am, would love to train with Ted anytime, vs a bunch of disgruntled Internet experts.


----------



## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

duk4me said:


> Hate to tell you this kiddos but it hasn't even got hot yet.


We are at day 15 of 100* plus temps. Our record is 21 days in a row. I sure hope we don't come up 1 day short.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

luvalab said:


> .....
> 
> A quick look here http://www.redbranchkennels.net/index.htm provides a good deal of information.
> 
> .....


Whoa!!! Sharon's a hottie!!!  

Thinkin' I might have a dog around here with a creeping problem. ;-)

(j/k ... no disrespect intended.)

JS


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

LOL...old pics. Hypothyroid Sharon is quite a bit chubbier. (at least until we get the meds adjusted.) I refuse to put up fat pics.


----------



## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

JS said:


> Whoa!!! Sharon's a hottie!!!
> 
> Thinkin' I might have a dog around here with a creeping problem. ;-)
> 
> ...


this is the most offensive post yet! if being physically attractive had anything to do with a person's ability to either train a dog or offer advice on training dogs, entry express would have a swimsuit photo as a required input field when registering!;-)


----------



## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

You look great. Put up Ginny Pictures!! Everyone should have to train a JRT at least once in their lives--make you appreciate these retrievers a bit more.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

roseberry said:


> this is the most offensive post yet! if being physically attractive had anything to do with a person's ability to either train a dog or offer advice on training dogs, entry express would have a swimsuit photo as a required input field when registering!;-)


I'm pretty sure Shane thought of that. Prolly was vetoed by his better half.

JS


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Didn't want to start a new thread, but really want to thank Sharon and Stan and whoever else came up with and shared the creeping solution. Had a banner training day today at lunch with my creeper. We have worked our way up to including the holding blind, having guns and duck calls going off while we're in the holding blind and judge talk (GUNS UP, DOG 6 to the LINE), with bird boy throwing birds at 45 yards, shooting the gun and blowing duck call (not in that order). We did 7 retrieves today with all the fixins and finally achieved NO MOVEMENT on the last 4 of the 7. Tomorrow we start on live birds.

It has been a very incremental process over the last 4 weeks, but worth every second! Thanks again guys and gals. Love the RTF!!!

Jen


----------



## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm too busy trying to get pelts (so don't look me up on EE)
Too hot to train and I have a trial this weekend.


Jeff


----------



## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Oh, btw, having seen some of the Nat Am, would love to train with Ted anytime, vs a bunch of disgruntled Internet experts.


I don't see anyone in this thread who is disgruntled or offers up much training advice. Well, I see one or two maybe...lol


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

EdA said:


> This kind of bickering generally occurs in the winter, why now?



The bugs are really bad.

Or it's that time of the month.


----------



## HPL (Jan 27, 2011)

EdA said:


> This kind of bickering generally occurs in the winter, why now?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpktBGInl60


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

HPL said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpktBGInl60


He has got it right damn hot and humid. One more day and the humidity goes in SW ONT. Hopefully no more rain for awhile either. 
So your saying we are disgruntled Internet users b/c of the weather. LOL I think we all enjoy coming here. May just pick up a thing or two or double check something. Who knows! You all have a good night.


----------



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Pals said:


> There is no reason for crude personal attacks (I don't see anything crude on this thread--besides the obviously sad ability to make a chicago style hotdog) And I believe many of us do indeed check on advice --this is what you posted back in November:*For those of you reading this thread, I suggest you go to:
> 
> The AKC Judges Website, http://www.akc.org/judges_directory/, and check to see how often a poster has judged field trials
> 
> ...


There was & it was a whole lot more fun - even the rich folks (many of them real heavyweights in life) rarely showed up with more than 1 dog per handler & a lot of them did a lot of the work themselves. It was their relaxation time. There is nothing like spending a day in the field throwing a really hard bird to get a really good idea of dog's abilities. Many who rely on their internet resume' will never know that nor will they want to do more than talk about their skills. Anyone can spend a lot of money, go through a lot of dogs, & have someone else do the training while rarely watching any other than their own dogs perform & enjoy their version of success. 

Our old guy just went to dog heaven this past week, I told my wife that I would not get another retriever for 2 reasons. 1) she's been a very good wife & I want to spend more time with her as we go through our golden years together & 2) I would not get a mutt, so if the dog had potential I'd be back spending weekends around people who for the most part, are not people that I enjoy spending time with. RTF is a great outlet as there are folks here that I would enjoy having a conversation with on any subject. 

I'm not listed on EE or the Judge's Directory - when I stopped competing I did not overnight get stupid, but the RAC thinks that happens. I have been retired for over 20 years from my vocation, that was repairing non conforming items on the jets that many of you fly on. If I did not have a hand in building that jet, young engineers (at the time) that I trained & mentored did. I still believe I could go to the factory tomorrow & be a contributor, just as I believe I could contribute in the judging arena. As Guthrie says "it's about having the knack". 

As for the "pelt" thing I remember Guy Burnett saying that back in the 60's, I thought it to be appropriate for our venue, other than for those who don't have any . I wished they would have had the choices in my day that are available today, I would probably be doing HRC as all my original intent was was a well mannered hunting dog. 



Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I don't see anyone in this thread who is disgruntled or offers up much training advice. Well, I see one or two maybe...lol


I wish the advice available today had been available when I started. But it really boils down to this, most people don't want advice, they want the publicity of posting & most would not have the basic knowledge to make good advice work. All you have to do is look at the LM, Cosmo threads & recognize that most of those who think their mutt from those breedings is great wiil only hold up the conversation end .


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

There is plenty of time for Stan's dog to get his JH. He's only 5 years old. However if be was my client I'd prob have a long talk with him double staking that dog in JH and sh in the same weekend. All the advice is mute if you don't train first and test later

/Paul


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Payback's a biotch, lovely 70 degrees up this way, trained 4 MH dogs, 2 triple setups, 3 crosswind blinds, diversion, poison bird, don't think any of us broke a sweat. RTF coffee break from the real world regards. ;-)
> 
> Oh, btw, having seen some of the Nat Am, would love to train with Ted anytime, vs a bunch of disgruntled Internet experts.


dont you mean train with his pro?

/Paul


----------



## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> There is plenty of time for Stan's dog to get his JH. He's only 5 years old. However if be was my client I'd prob have a long talk with him double staking that dog in JH and sh in the same weekend. All the advice is mute if you don't train first and test later
> 
> /Paul


Paul, he has an HR in the HRC venue.
Last year he had knee surgery.
At the advice of his vet, we didn't run after the surgery.

I have never claimed to be something I am not.

Let me ask you this;

Has every dog you trained gone along perfectly?
Have you ever made a mistake in training you had to correct?
Has every dog you trained achieved Finished, MH or AFC in less than 4.5 years?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Hey tried to stand up for you. Fact is hrc is 50 50 dog handler work. AKC is 80 20. For pure dog work, I will look at AKC. If "your solutions" were working a dog that age should be in master tests, prob titled. Stay focused on training, quit running him until he can pass. 

/Paul


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Hey tried to stand up for you. Fact is hrc is 50 50 dog handler work. AKC is 80 20. For pure dog work, I will look at AKC. If "your solutions" were working a dog that age should be in master tests, prob titled. Stay focused on training, quit running him until he can pass.
> 
> /Paul


What is the average age for a dog to title at MH?
Where did you derive your 50-50/80-20 numbers?
Is that on EE????

Are you suggesting HRC is less than AKC?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

road kill said:


> Are you suggesting HRC is less than AKC?


Yes. 

Started < junior < seasoned < senior < HR < MH 

Grand < MN


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

road kill said:


> What is the average age for a dog to title at MH?
> Where did you derive your 50-50/80-20 numbers?
> Is that on EE????
> 
> Are you suggesting HRC is less than AKC?


my dogs avg is 2.5 years. I run both. When you get more experience and run both games you will understand. They are different games. If your asking about pure dog work, akc is tougherm

/Paul


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/cheese puns?language=ru_RU


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Marvin S said:


> There was & it was a whole lot more fun - even the rich folks (many of them real heavyweights in life) rarely showed up with more than 1 dog per handler & a lot of them did a lot of the work themselves. It was their relaxation time. There is nothing like spending a day in the field throwing a really hard bird to get a really good idea of dog's abilities. Many who rely on their internet resume' will never know that nor will they want to do more than talk about their skills. Anyone can spend a lot of money, go through a lot of dogs, & have someone else do the training while rarely watching any other than their own dogs perform & enjoy their version of success.
> 
> Our old guy just went to dog heaven this past week, I told my wife that I would not get another retriever for 2 reasons. 1) she's been a very good wife & I want to spend more time with her as we go through our golden years together & 2) I would not get a mutt, so if the dog had potential I'd be back spending weekends around people who for the most part, are not people that I enjoy spending time with. RTF is a great outlet as there are folks here that I would enjoy having a conversation with on any subject.
> 
> ...


Nice post here. Read carefully. Some true words expressed. Thanks Marvin.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

luvalab said:


> You know, I drive up 39 every year or two on the way to beautiful Bayfield, and I'm always hopeful I'll have a chance to meet and/or train with a real-life internet sensation.


You (and anybody else who happens to drive up I-39  ) are very welcome to visit any time you're in the area. I'm just over ten miles off the interstate and very easy to find. Just give me a call or email.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> You (and anybody else who happens to drive up I-39  ) are very welcome to visit any time you're in the area. I'm just over ten miles off the interstate and very easy to find. Just give me a call or email.


It will be next spring or summer, but I definitely will!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

You can't replace good advice taken but, you can lose good advice ignored. I listen and catalog much more than I sometimes realize. Luckily, I continue to hope that I can absorb all the good stuff which has been graciously shared with me in my short span of retrieverdom. Luckily, I've got some great characters surrounding me right now and I can only dream of someday stepping into a similar sized Shoe.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

badbullgator said:


> Yes.
> 
> Started < junior < seasoned < senior < HR < MH
> 
> Grand < MN


I'd agree somewhat, started is less than junior only because delivery to hand is not required. The upper levels are different from one venue to the next (hard to rate difficulty, judges determine difficulty and I seen give me's and ball-busters in all venues). Seasoned has tricks that will never be seen in senior. Also an HR is the seasoned-senior title. HRCH =MH, I might accept the rating if we are saying AKC has a tendency to have more technics, but I'd definitely change it to MN<Grand. Look at the pass rate, on 90% pro ran dogs in the grand, (I believe only 4 amateurs passed the last one) vs. pass rate at the master national if you disagree with placement


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## Lesa Cozens Dauphin (Sep 13, 2005)

Interesting thread...I have learned about cheese, hot dogs, training, venue differences and what smillerdvm thinks about RTF. Does this qualify for the most subject changes in one thread!

fun reading regards,

lesa c


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Lesa Cozens Dauphin said:


> Interesting thread...I have learned about cheese, hot dogs, training, venue differences and what smillerdvm thinks about RTF. Does this qualify for the most subject changes in one thread!
> 
> fun reading regards,
> 
> lesa c


not until we start talking about beavers.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

The Illinois General Assembly voted to overrule Gov Quinn's veto of the Concealed Carry bill. 
So, it seems that Quinn retaliated by suspending their pay due to a missed deadline for pension reform.

Gotta love it.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I'd agree somewhat, started is less than junior only because delivery to hand is not required. The upper levels are different from one venue to the next (hard to rate difficulty, judges determine difficulty and I seen give me's and ball-busters in all venues). Seasoned has tricks that will never be seen in senior. Also an HR is the seasoned-senior title. HRCH =MH, I might accept the rating if we are saying AKC has a tendency to have more technics, but I'd definitely change it to MN<Grand. Look at the pass rate, on 90% pro ran dogs in the grand, (I believe only 4 amateurs passed the last one) vs. pass rate at the master national if you disagree with placement


I cannot agree less about the grand due to the disproportionate number of dogs dropped for obedience in the grand. MN is much more of a test of what a dog can do in respect to actual field work. I could care less if the dog is stuck to my leg on the way to the line. It is also far more difficult to qualify each year for the MN that the one time last forever qualifications for the Grand. Maybe that is why the Grand is so hard on obedience, because all you have to have is a HRCH and I have seen many HRCH's that would not have a MH and wold not qualify for the MN. That is not to say that a dog that passes the Grand is not an exceptional dog, just that many that enter the Grand are not.


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## Kevinismybrother (Aug 3, 2009)

" Originally Posted by Rainmaker 
Payback's a biotch, lovely 70 degrees up this way, trained 4 MH dogs, 2 triple setups, 3 crosswind blinds, diversion, poison bird, don't think any of us broke a sweat. RTF coffee break from the real world regards. 

Oh, btw, having seen some of the Nat Am, would love to train with Ted anytime, vs a bunch of disgruntled Internet experts.
dont you mean train with his pro?

/Paul "

I have trained with Ted,
I have trained with his pro, 
and I have trained with both. 
all are excellent experiences. They don't always agree on 100% of everything. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience to be had from both of them.

I regret that you have not been able to be so enlightened.;-)


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> I cannot agree less about the grand due to the disproportionate number of dogs dropped for obedience in the grand. MN is much more of a test of what a dog can do in respect to actual field work. I could care less if the dog is stuck to my leg on the way to the line. It is also far more difficult to qualify each year for the MN that the one time last forever qualifications for the Grand. Maybe that is why the Grand is so hard on obedience, because all you have to have is a HRCH and I have seen many HRCH's that would not have a MH and wold not qualify for the MN. That is not to say that a dog that passes the Grand is not an exceptional dog, just that many that enter the Grand are not.


All these venues are great and with nuance but without favor you do typically see an HRCHDogNameSH over HRDogNameMH.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Kevinismybrother said:


> " Originally Posted by Rainmaker
> Payback's a biotch, lovely 70 degrees up this way, trained 4 MH dogs, 2 triple setups, 3 crosswind blinds, diversion, poison bird, don't think any of us broke a sweat. RTF coffee break from the real world regards.
> 
> Oh, btw, having seen some of the Nat Am, would love to train with Ted anytime, vs a bunch of disgruntled Internet experts.
> ...


Sorry I insulted a member of the fan club. I just don't happen to worship at the alter....

/Paul


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Sorry I insulted a member of the fan club. I just don't happen to worship at the alter....
> 
> /Paul


This post is unnecessary

What goes around regards

Bubba


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> I cannot agree less about the grand due to the disproportionate number of dogs dropped for obedience in the grand. MN is much more of a test of what a dog can do in respect to actual field work. I could care less if the dog is stuck to my leg on the way to the line. It is also far more difficult to qualify each year for the MN that the one time last forever qualifications for the Grand. Maybe that is why the Grand is so hard on obedience, because all you have to have is a HRCH and I have seen many HRCH's that would not have a MH and wold not qualify for the MN. That is not to say that a dog that passes the Grand is not an exceptional dog, just that many that enter the Grand are not.


Agree and disagree if that is possible. In the field I want a dog that sticks to my leg for the two to three hours we are hunting. Hunting is the key word. That being said I would love to have any dog that qualifies for the MN or one that passes the Grand. Both are great assets. I wouldn't kick either one out of the bed for eating crackers.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bubba said:


> This post is unnecessary
> 
> What goes around regards
> 
> Bubba


Oh Good Lord did he steal some more of your beer and hide your government check in your training boots again?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> This post is unnecessary
> 
> What goes around regards
> 
> Bubba


Technically your post was unnecessary. My post was a directly reply to a statement made directly to me.....and was following the peanut guidelines of not letting someone ever feel bad or have regrets..

/Paul


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

HNTFSH said:


> All these venues are great and with nuance but without favor you do typically see an HRCHDogNameSH over HRDogNameMH.


Simple answer to this is HRC peeps don't Like AKC very few run it, just as AKC don't like HRC and very few run it, Many AKC Dogs with just MH, many HRCH dog with just HRCH, many GRHRCH dog with just GRHRCH, many MNH dogs with just that, many FC dogs with only FC titles. Very few with MH-HRCH, HRCH-MH, FC AFC-MH-HRCH or any other combo of titles, you'd have to actually run the other venue, and assoicate with those people . Heck there are even dogs sold for Premium price who are only UKC registered, and have been for generations, and you'd have to make an effort to get them AKC papers, to run them. People stick to their own venues, or whatevers available in their area. Then we argue that the other side is easier or wrong, to inflate our egos and put our dogs and venue on a rung a tad above others. When a good dog, could care about venue, and every test-trial is an individual, regardless of venue, some are hard some easy. Yet we argue it and rate them, because It keeps the blood pumping, to talk a bit of smack.  & Heck if we do it enough, it'll get this thread locked, which might be the only way to stop the outrageously incorrect things others are saying about CA vs. WI cheese


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Simple answer to this is HRC peeps don't Like AKC very few run it, just as AKC don't like HRC and very few run it, Many AKC Dogs with just MH, many HRCH dog with just HRCH, many GRHRCH dog with just GRHRCH, many MNH dogs with just that, many FC dogs with only FC titles. Very few with MH-HRCH, HRCH-MH, FC AFC-MH-HRCH or any other combo of titles, you'd have to actually run the other venue, and assoicate with those people . Heck there are even dogs sold for Premium price who are only UKC registered, and have been for generations, and you'd have to make an effort to get them AKC papers, to run them. People stick to their own venues, or whatevers available in their area. Then we argue that the other side is easier or wrong, to inflate our egos and put our dogs and venue on a rung a tad above others. When a good dog, could care about venue, and every test-trial is an individual, regardless of venue, some are hard some easy. Yet we argue it and rate them, because It keeps the blood pumping, to talk a bit of smack.  & Heck if we do it enough, it'll get this thread locked, which might be the only way to stop the outrageously incorrect things others are saying about CA vs. WI cheese


My cat can kick your dogs donkey 

/Paul


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Simple answer to this is HRC peeps don't Like AKC very few run it, just as AKC don't like HRC and very few run it, Many AKC Dogs with just MH, many HRCH dog with just HRCH, many GRHRCH dog with just GRHRCH, many MNH dogs with just that, many FC dogs with only FC titles. Very few with MH-HRCH, HRCH-MH, FC AFC-MH-HRCH or any other combo of titles, you'd have to actually run the other venue, and assoicate with those people . Heck there are even dogs sold for Premium price who are only UKC registered, and have been for generations, and you'd have to make an effort to get them AKC papers, to run them. People stick to their own venues, or whatevers available in their area. Then we argue that the other side is easier or wrong, to inflate our egos and put our dogs and venue on a rung a tad above others. When a good dog, could care about venue, and every test-trial is an individual, regardless of venue, some are hard some easy. Yet we argue it and rate them, because It keeps the blood pumping, to talk a bit of smack.  & Heck if we do it enough, it'll get this thread locked, which might be the only way to stop the outrageously incorrect things others are saying about CA vs. WI cheese


I still want to know, WHO CUT THE CHEESE?


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

duk4me said:


> I still want to know, WHO CUT THE CHEESE?


Well, I want to know who'll stop the rain.



... Oh! Wait! I see something! Big, yellow, gives light and heat... WOOOOO WHOOOOOO!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

badbullgator said:


> I cannot agree less about the grand due to the disproportionate number of dogs dropped for obedience in the grand. MN is much more of a test of what a dog can do in respect to actual field work. I could care less if the dog is stuck to my leg on the way to the line. It is also far more difficult to qualify each year for the MN that the one time last forever qualifications for the Grand. Maybe that is why the Grand is so hard on obedience, because all you have to have is a HRCH and I have seen many HRCH's that would not have a MH and wold not qualify for the MN. That is not to say that a dog that passes the Grand is not an exceptional dog, just that many that enter the Grand are not.


I wonder if some of the obedience in HRC is due to gun safety. 
Yes I agree with you some who have run HRC could not pass the MH and should not be in the Grand and also vice versa some who have their MH could not do HRC, I have seen! JMO


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Simple answer to this is HRC peeps don't Like AKC very few run it, just as AKC don't like HRC and very few run it, Many AKC Dogs with just MH, many HRCH dog with just HRCH, many GRHRCH dog with just GRHRCH, many MNH dogs with just that, many FC dogs with only FC titles. Very few with MH-HRCH, HRCH-MH, FC AFC-MH-HRCH or any other combo of titles, you'd have to actually run the other venue, and assoicate with those people . Heck there are even dogs sold for Premium price who are only UKC registered, and have been for generations, and you'd have to make an effort to get them AKC papers, to run them. People stick to their own venues, or whatevers available in their area. Then we argue that the other side is easier or wrong, to inflate our egos and put our dogs and venue on a rung a tad above others. When a good dog, could care about venue, and every test-trial is an individual, regardless of venue, some are hard some easy. Yet we argue it and rate them, because It keeps the blood pumping, to talk a bit of smack.  & Heck if we do it enough, it'll get this thread locked, which might be the only way to stop the outrageously incorrect things others are saying about CA vs. WI cheese


That works unless you acknowledge my example of being titled in both venues.  And many are.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

AKC Master is a lot harder than HRC Finished. And while there is more that a handler is _allowed_ to do in HRC, I do not agree that AKC is somehow "more-dog-less-handler" than HRC.

Just because you can't do as much, doesn't mean that what you can do, doesn't make just as big (or bigger) of a difference.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I thought it was Wis cheese and Vermont cheese


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

HNTFSH said:


> That works unless you acknowledge my example of being titled in both venues.  *And many are*.



I don't knowabout there being many, but here is one that got around.

SRSC FC AFC MHR HRCH DAY'S END HILLVIEW SUPER SUE MH

john


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I thought it was Wis cheese and Vermont cheese


No it was about, who cut the cheese


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Brad said:


> No it was about, who cut the cheese


That was answered in post 186.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> AKC Master is a lot harder than HRC Finished. And while there is more that a handler is _allowed_ to do in HRC, I do not agree that AKC is somehow "more-dog-less-handler" than HRC.
> 
> Just because you can't do as much, doesn't mean that what you can do, doesn't make just as big (or bigger) of a difference.


Actually compare the rules. More opportunities for failure due to handler in hrc 

/Paul


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I thought it was Wis cheese and Vermont cheese


I thought it was hot dogs.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Actually compare the rules. More opportunities for failure due to handler in hrc
> 
> /Paul


I'm a crappy handler. 
I can still manage to get a dog through a lot more Finished tests than I can Master.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I don't knowabout there being many, but here is one that got around.
> 
> SRSC FC AFC MHR HRCH DAY'S END HILLVIEW SUPER SUE MH
> 
> john


Yes. there are some that can do it all.. JD


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Simple answer to this is HRC peeps don't Like AKC very few run it, just as AKC don't like HRC and very few run it, Many AKC Dogs with just MH, many HRCH dog with just HRCH, many GRHRCH dog with just GRHRCH, many MNH dogs with just that, many FC dogs with only FC titles. Very few with MH-HRCH, HRCH-MH, FC AFC-MH-HRCH or any other combo of titles, you'd have to actually run the other venue, and assoicate with those people . Heck there are even dogs sold for Premium price who are only UKC registered, and have been for generations, and you'd have to make an effort to get them AKC papers, to run them. People stick to their own venues, or whatevers available in their area. Then we argue that the other side is easier or wrong, to inflate our egos and put our dogs and venue on a rung a tad above others. When a good dog, could care about venue, and every test-trial is an individual, regardless of venue, some are hard some easy. Yet we argue it and rate them, because It keeps the blood pumping, to talk a bit of smack.  & Heck if we do it enough, it'll get this thread locked, which might be the only way to stop the outrageously incorrect things others are saying about CA vs. WI cheese


I started in HRC over 23 years ago and AKC about 20 years ago. I always find Finished easier than Master. They are looking for different things. It takes a very good hunting retriever to pass Finished and i would be happy to hunt with any of them. It takes a very good very technical retriever to pass Master that may or may not be a hunting retriever. I would be happy to hunt with any MH. The Grand is far more difficult than a regular master hunt but not as technical as the MN. I will say the most difficult, yet fair, blind I have ever seen in a test was at the Grand in Madison GA 4 or 5 years ago.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

<<<<<< HRCH Calusa's Tank O'Chocolate MH


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Actually compare the rules. More opportunities for failure due to handler in hrc
> 
> /Paul


Thanks for your opinion. Where have I heard that before...


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> I started in HRC over 23 years ago and AKC about 20 years ago. I always find Finished easier than Master. They are looking for different things. It takes a very good hunting retriever to pass Finished and i would be happy to hunt with any of them. It takes a very good very technical retriever to pass Master that may or may not be a hunting retriever. I would be happy to hunt with any MH. The Grand is far more difficult than a regular master hunt but not as technical as the MN. I will say the most difficult, yet fair, blind I have ever seen in a test was at the Grand in Madison GA 4 or 5 years ago.


Good post. I run everything...HRC, AKC HT, AKC FT, SRS... and we have a frying blast every time we go to the line. Even have letters in all venues. 

That said, IMHO, this "peanut" attitude has diluted the quality of information on RTF. It has created more chaff and removed many of the persons willing to discuss real training issues. YMMV.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

These posts prove my point

/Paul


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> These posts prove my point
> 
> /Paul


Wait, what was the point again?


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Actually compare the rules. More opportunities for failure due to handler in hrc
> 
> /Paul


I do recall running behind a household name pro in an AKC test whereas the judges had described failure for unsafe gun handling (wooden gun unsafe handling). 

Serious stuff they claimed.

Apparently none noticed said handler with his thumb on the end of the barrel, rocking it back and forth, butt on top of foot while dog ran.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

HNTFSH said:


> I do recall running behind a household name pro in an AKC test whereas the judges had described failure for unsafe gun handling (wooden gun unsafe handling).
> 
> Serious stuff they claimed.
> 
> Apparently none noticed said handler with his thumb on the end of the barrel, rocking it back and forth, butt on top of foot while dog ran.


That's bad, bad, bad-
He might've picked up a _splinter_ ;-)


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## knash3 (May 17, 2012)

Reading this thread is like watching an old, bad zombie movie. I keep saying to myself "why won't it just DIE!!!!"


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

knash3 said:


> Reading this thread is like watching an old, bad zombie movie. I keep saying to myself "why won't it just DIE!!!!"


I was just thinking the same thing, but for #250 posts, it's been pretty civil and talk about a range of topics...and a good splatter of GDG....RTF is one dysfunctional family for sure!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

RF2 said:


> Good post. I run everything...HRC, AKC HT, AKC FT, SRS... and we have a frying blast every time we go to the line. Even have letters in all venues.
> 
> That said, IMHO, this "peanut" attitude has diluted the quality of information on RTF. It has created more chaff and removed many of the persons willing to discuss real training issues. YMMV.


Since you miss the hard core non peanutty attitude, here is a personal attack just for you:razz:!

Your dog does NOT have letters in all of those venues! A simple *** doesn't count. Just do a forum search & you will find volumes backing up the fact that QAA is not a title.. That I am jealous of your accomplishment is irrelevant. The fact remains that you misspoke on the Internet. This travesty to mankind must be rectified. Otherwise, the world as we know it may end.

I will see you this fall as I desperately pursue the ***!!!!!!


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

fishduck said:


> Since you miss the hard core non peanutty attitude, here is a personal attack just for you:razz:!
> 
> Your dog does NOT have letters in all of those venues! A simple *** doesn't count. Just do a forum search & you will find volumes backing up the fact that QAA is not a title.. That I am jealous of your accomplishment is irrelevant. The fact remains that you misspoke on the Internet. This travesty to mankind must be rectified. Otherwise, the world as we know it may end.
> 
> I will see you this fall as I desperately pursue the ***!!!!!!


Don't you know I'm an RTFBA? I'm gonna pm a moderator...


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I started in AKC first & young dog, thus it was harder to get the MH than the HRCH's and MHR's, my dog was well finished when we started those. Now I run them all I don't see much difference, same tests, same principles, usually same judges (so same technics), different clothes. I've noticed differences in different areas of the country, prob. why pros travel  (another can of worms). My hardest series was a NAHRA Senior, hardest blind HRC. As for the grand it's a guaranteed # of series, it is graded to a grand standard. With the recent uptake of MN entries, we're getting less and less series, done to finish on time. So that it appears it has become simply a double master hunt, sometimes less than that. The MN does not have an official higher MN standard of grading, so all it's really grading different from a weekend test is longevity, hard to do that with less series. The grand does everything it can to remain standard regardless of venue. The MN changes, #series, what's considered a series, appeared toughness etc. every year, it's not standard. We could get into Grand vs. MN judge selection processes, (Do club votes vs. committee =popularity contests?).

The MN is in my area next year, the highest pass rate ever is this area. I might pony up the cash to go, but pushing to run 6 MH tests, with dogs that have already passed many, just to go and sit for days waiting. Seems like paying money, to condemn myself to purgatory as next years vacation. What is it proving for a finished dog to run 6 additional test to the same standard they've passed time and time again. Except to put $ in a kennel clubs pocket, and if one pays enough $ runs enough tests, you too can qualify . So I prefer the HRC, when your an HRCH your an HRCH, your not a Grand dog, you have to prove that at the Grand under the grand standard, and still pass enough finished tests (200pt)but you don't have to pay every year to reprove you are indeed an HRCH.

It's been fun wacking it back and forth. But we really should've gotten in to name calling and threats by now. Perhaps those P.C. beatings and sensitivity training are starting to work (is this a good thing?)  At least we've added substance to a W(H)INNING Thread


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

This thread is pretty pointless, but I kinda like it anyway.

Analogies, anyone.


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