# Blind water retrieves



## Riverbend (Jul 5, 2012)

Does anyone have any drills for getting a dog to line or cast for a blind water retrieve? On land, my 2 yr old lab will take off on a line with a "back" command. But when it comes to water, I have trouble getting him to enter the water unless he sees something to retrieve. Any advice on how I can get him to take a line in the water for blind retrieves??


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

My suggestion hinges on how good your dog's Basics are. But if you are confident in them - especially a strong Swim-by - Tune up drills are excellent. Are you familiar with them?

Evan


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Riverbend said:


> Does anyone have any drills for getting a dog to line or cast for a blind water retrieve? On land, my 2 yr old lab will take off on a line with a "back" command. But when it comes to water, I have trouble getting him to enter the water unless he sees something to retrieve. Any advice on how I can get him to take a line in the water for blind retrieves??


Before we had the programs of today we would have a person on the other shore stand up and place the bumper ( a marked blind as some would call it) then hide ...After several of these the dog came to expect something to retrieve when sent...If the dog had trouble getting all the way there the planter would help the dog out in what ever manner it took ...sometimes a dropped rock or bumper...I'll let Evan take you through the modern way of teaching cold blinds...Steve S


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

Unless i am missing something, simply forceing the dog into the water on the back command should take care of your problem. i'm assuming of course that he has been forced on land. 
i need a nap, just getting your point now Evan!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck
GG


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

I have a photo taken at a Bill Hillman seminar that may apply.


/Users/porkchop/Desktop/IMG_0021.jpg


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## Riverbend (Jul 5, 2012)

Evan said:


> My suggestion hinges on how good your dog's Basics are. But if you are confident in them - especially a strong Swim-by - Tune up drills are excellent. Are you familiar with them?
> 
> Evan


Evan, I am not familiar with the tune-up drills you referenced. Where can I learn more about them?


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

I would say your dog isnt confident on water....
This is how i start pups off when doing water blinds Just like on land A white marker on the other side with a pile at the base Build confidence then remove the marker


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

First, a basic question...has this dog been through swim by? That is where this issue should have been addressed. If the answer is yes, then you should take Evan's lead and revisit this.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Evan said:


> My suggestion hinges on how good your dog's Basics are. But if you are confident in them - especially a strong Swim-by - Tune up drills are excellent. Are you familiar with them?
> 
> Evan


Sounds as if you may be putting the cart before the horse.
Tune-up drills before a dog will even enter the water? That's a head scratcher to me.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Watchm said:


> Sounds as if you may be putting the cart before the horse.
> Tune-up drills before a dog will even enter the water? That's a head scratcher to me.


Read slower, and more carefully.


Evan said:


> *My suggestion hinges on how good your dog's Basics are.* But if you are confident in them - especially a strong Swim-by - Tune up drills are excellent. Are you familiar with them?
> 
> Evan


No presumptions. I'm still interested in what training the dog has had. However, lines & casts in water are a principle focus of Tune up drills. I don't know if his dog is ready or not. I only answered his question...with a qualification.

Evan


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Riverbend said:


> Evan, I am not familiar with the tune-up drills you referenced. Where can I learn more about them?


I'll gladly help with that. But I would like to know, as others have asked, has this dog finished Basics? Water force? Swim-by? You'll need all those skills first. Without them drills like Tune ups will be over your dog's head.

Evan


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Evan said:


> Read slower, and more carefully.No presumptions. I'm still interested in what training the dog has had. However, lines & casts in water are a principle focus of Tune up drills. I don't know if his dog is ready or not. I only answered his question...with a qualification.
> 
> Evan


Evan, you crack me up. I read slowly and carefully. You mentioned a drill that is clearly over this dog's head. The OP mentioned he won't even get in the water.
I am not going to turn this into an internet debate. Maybe you can sell him a few DVD's.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

Watchm said:


> Evan, you crack me up. I read slowly and carefully. You mentioned a drill that is clearly over this dog's head. The OP mentioned he won't even get in the water.
> I am not going to turn this into an internet debate. Maybe you can sell him a few DVD's.





> I have trouble getting him to enter the water *unless he sees something to retrieve*


meaning, the dog goes into the water


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Swim-by would undoubtedly help at some point. But if the OP says "back" and the dog does not go, does this not possibly go all the way back to FTP?


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> meaning, the dog goes into the water


Ahhhhhh, that is not, then, a blind retrieve.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

*not going*



RookieTrainer said:


> Swim-by would undoubtedly help at some point. But if the OP says "back" and the dog does not go, does this not possibly go all the way back to FTP?



This is where we are still waiting for the op to answer Evan's first post......It goes when it can see something to go get....but ...no confidence of the unknown ...White bumpers on the edge that the dog can see and do a tune up drill would probably help with the confidence ....Steve S


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## mohaled (Oct 7, 2007)

I understand completely what Evans saying, if he's done his basics water..meaning swimby, which means the dog went in water before without problem...then it's a good idea to revisited some drills. 
That's the piece of info the op haven't provided...


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Swimby to tune-ups. Great idea. That is my new progression.
Thanks.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

Watchm said:


> Evan, you crack me up. I read slowly and carefully. You mentioned a drill that is clearly over this dog's head. The OP mentioned he won't even get in the water.
> I am not going to turn this into an internet debate. Maybe you can sell him a few DVD's.


Your posts have in no way helped the guy who's having trouble getting his dog to do water blinds.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Donald Flanagan said:


> Your posts have in no way helped the guy who's having trouble getting his dog to do water blinds.


Seems to be the theme of the last few weeks. Typical summer time behavior.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Donald Flanagan said:


> Your posts have in no way helped the guy who's having trouble getting his dog to do water blinds.
> 
> View attachment 7812
> View attachment 7814


Since the dog goes on land blinds we know there is momentum. 
Therefore I would start with marked blinds with a short water entry and a short exit. I would also set up the same concept three different times on the same body of water, if the water allows, increasing the distance of entry and exit as the dog progresses. As soon as the dog picks up the first bumper I would give genuine praise. IMMEDIATELY, even before he hits the water on return. Throw a happy bumper on land and repeat the procedure on marked blind #2, this time asking a bit more on distances from the water and to the bumper. 
If the dog does well on the second attempt do not throw the happy bumper. Walk him off line while your bird boy gets set up for the third attempt. Keep him in an upbeat mood but not crazy. Flip him an easy happy bumper if he does well.
On the third attempt, if your dog gives you any issues simply move closer to the water's edge and repeat.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

I thought Evan was leading the OP to acknowledge that swimby was not very solid, if done at all...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RF2 said:


> I thought Evan was leading the OP to acknowledge that swimby was not very solid, if done at all...


Yes, kind of. Like you, I want to know what training the dog does have to rely on. But you're right; if he was that far along we could go ahead and detail the drills to help his dog line and cast in water. It sure doesn't look like that's going to turn out, does it?

Evan


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Evan, I bow down to your internet training methods.
Carry on bud the thread is now yours.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Riverbend said:


> Does anyone have any drills for getting a dog to line or cast for a blind water retrieve? On land, my 2 yr old lab will take off on a line with a "back" command. But when it comes to water, I have trouble getting him to enter the water unless he sees something to retrieve. Any advice on how I can get him to take a line in the water for blind retrieves??


My friend....Your basics are not complete. Are you following a program? Don't be afraid to ask questions....This is your dog and you want to do it right, for you and fido. Remember....this is stuff that a dog relies on you for help. They really don't understand blinds, but we do.

Cheers...


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

get with someone with some experience. 
find your holes (they are obviously there).
fill them COMPLETELY in before doing anything else, then revisit your issue.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

*blinds*

Don't feel like it is your fault this thread went to pot on you....Just come back and give the info Evan ask for and you will get some answers...Don't be intimidated by the way some behave ...Just get a thicker hide and hang in there... Best wishes on solving your problem ....Steve S


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

When I grow up I want to be just like you.


Watchm said:


> Evan, I bow down to your internet training methods.
> Carry on bud the thread is now yours.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Read it again and again. At some point you will realize Evan is not implying what you had hoped. You took it the way you wante because you have an agenda.


Watchm said:


> Evan, you crack me up. I read slowly and carefully. You mentioned a drill that is clearly over this dog's head. The OP mentioned he won't even get in the water.
> I am not going to turn this into an internet debate. Maybe you can sell him a few DVD's.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

RF2 said:


> I thought Evan was leading the OP to acknowledge that swimby was not very solid, if done at all...


If Riverbend is new to these concepts and terms, it may not be helpful to start off with a response that is leading the OP to acknowledge that swimby was not solid or done at all. Though it's obvious Riverbend has had some success with training to have gotten to land blinds, it doesn't mean he or she knows what swimby means or that it will be helpful to his or her goals. If a person wants to help a newcomer, or find out where they are, it may help to ask what their goals are - hunting only, hunting and competition - which type of competition. 

Or, just try your best to lay read what they said about where they are having trouble and offer up a drill or two. Take a step back from the "system". Just my take after several months of lurking in addition to posting.

Jennifer Henion - newbie at large


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Watchm said:


> Evan, you crack me up. I read slowly and carefully. You mentioned a drill that is clearly over this dog's head. The OP mentioned he won't even get in the water.
> I am not going to turn this into an internet debate. Maybe you can sell him a few DVD's.



Its a shame that you have over-reacted to Evan's help and even gone so far as put a silly quote like that as your signature line... There is no need for a personal attack and insults.

You might want to re-read the other thread...you started that arguement by taking offense to a question. Do yourself a favor and take Gooser's advice from that thread. If you don't like the advice from a question you ask, ignore it.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?84005-Under-the-arc-poison-bird-blind


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Hello Riverbend and welcome to RTF,
Putting all the above questions aside.
Not asking anything about your dogs background.
Sometimes, on occasion the waters edge, like a cover change in the field.
Can be a wall.
If you’re doing land blinds but pup will not go as scent at waters edge.
And you want a drill or trick to get past this. Here you go………
Take dog, a handful of bumpers 6-8, a tie-out stake and a rope down to the waters edge.
Remember, I am not even asking anything about your dogs level of training so the tie-out stake is for sit.
Stake the dog at waters edge. Methodically toss your bumpers out into a pile in the water, all in one clump.
Save 2, put one in your back pocket. Always have a bumper in your back pocket. Keep one in your hand.
Untie your pup and have sit or/and hold by collar. Toss the bumper in your hand to your pile. Release the hound.
When Rover comes back have him sit at waters edge facing you with his back to the pile. With an arm motion that will resemble your back cast toss the bumper back to the pile. Again release the hound. After a couple of these tosses with instant release, just do the arm motion with no toss. You will kinda look like a Nazi to do this. Dog should turn and go to pile now. Start mixing up the front finish with the occasional send from the side. This is your trick. It is also many folks start to water T. It is not unheard of for some young dogs who do nice lining and lawn T drills to have a WALL at waters edge. And still be able to do wonderful water marks.
Best of luck with your pup and again welcome to The RTF.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Ray Kirkpatrick said:


> I have a photo taken at a Bill Hillman seminar that may apply.
> 
> 
> /Users/porkchop/Desktop/IMG_0021.jpg












This is Ray's picture.


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## Riverbend (Jul 5, 2012)

Wow, this is my first exposure to RTF - kinda eye-opening. Anyway, thanks to Evan, Ken and others who've offered some really helpful suggestions. It appears that I need to provide a little more info to get more targeted advice. My dog was not very confident in the water, and I've spend a lot of time this spring/summer just getting him more comfortable - jumping off docks, jumping out of boats and just swimming. His water entries are getting better, but sometimes tentative. He does well with water marks. I have NOT done swim-bys with him, and it sounds like that's something I need to work on. On land, he handles ok, but his lines aren't as straight as they need to be. Do I need to get his lines straightened out before I can expect him to do a swim-by?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great post, Ken ! Very helpful and may inspire one to research more complicated concepts like Water T and Swimby.

Jennifer Henion


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

How did you teach the dog to handle on land?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Riverbend said:


> I have NOT done swim-bys with him, and it sounds like that's something I need to work on. *On land, he handles ok*, but his lines aren't as straight as they need to be. Do I need to get his lines straightened out before I can expect him to do a swim-by?


How did you get him to handle? (Tim beat me to it!) Did you do single and/or double T? Has he been fully force fetched, including force to pile? I know this may not be familar terminology to you, but please ask any questions you like.

Neither T work, nor Swim-by are about lining, so don't worry about that yet.

Evan


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Riverbend said:


> Wow, this is my first exposure to RTF - kinda eye-opening. Anyway, thanks to Evan, Ken and others who've offered some really helpful suggestions. It appears that I need to provide a little more info to get more targeted advice. My dog was not very confident in the water, and I've spend a lot of time this spring/summer just getting him more comfortable - jumping off docks, jumping out of boats and just swimming. His water entries are getting better, but sometimes tentative. He does well with water marks. I have NOT done swim-bys with him, and it sounds like that's something I need to work on. On land, he handles ok, but his lines aren't as straight as they need to be. Do I need to get his lines straightened out before I can expect him to do a swim-by?


As in conversations in many different venue's, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. Pay attention to those that are trying to be helpful and ignore those that are not. It's not just an RTF thing unfortunately.

Here are a couple direct questions that I think will help Evan and the others help you.

1. Are you following a program?

2. What training has your dog completed up to this point? (Force to pile, T, TT work, etc...)

Your dog is obviously still learning how to run cold blinds. Don't worry so much about the straight lines (on land or water) at this point. That will come with confidence and experience. The main thing now is that the dog goes when sent. Stops when directed. Changes direction when you give a cast to do so and returns. 

Evans swim by DVD does a great job of explaining and demonstrating water force and swim by mechanics. If you don't have it or can't afford it, I will lend it to you. But we need to make sure your dog has the tools to understand the lessons.

Good luck

edit: Evan beat me to it...


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## Riverbend (Jul 5, 2012)

I got him to handle by using the baseball configuration, gradually increasing the distances to the bumpers. I'm not exactly sure what the single and double Ts are...


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> Hello Riverbend and welcome to RTF,
> Putting all the above questions aside.
> Not asking anything about your dogs background.
> Sometimes, on occasion the waters edge, like a cover change in the field.
> ...


I still would suggjest getting a program to fallow, their many out there to chose from. If not this is the easy, in my opion to start the water entry. Good job Ken.
Keith


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Riverbend said:


> I got him to handle by using the baseball configuration, gradually increasing the distances to the bumpers. I'm not exactly sure what the single and double Ts are...


Are you using "Water Dog" for your dog training reference? If so, then IMO Ken has given you great advice.


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## Riverbend (Jul 5, 2012)

I have been following Richard Wolter's program in Water Dog (I know it's pretty dated). I have not worked on force-fetching with this dog, primarily because I'm uneasy about how that might affect my "bond" with this dog. Is that a legitimate fear? I do use an e-collar occassionally for basic obedience, and he does understand that he's got the ability to turn it off.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

Riverbend said:


> Wow, this is my first exposure to RTF - kinda eye-opening. Anyway, thanks to Evan, Ken and others who've offered some really helpful suggestions. It appears that I need to provide a little more info to get more targeted advice. My dog was not very confident in the water, and I've spend a lot of time this spring/summer just getting him more comfortable - jumping off docks, jumping out of boats and just swimming. His water entries are getting better, but sometimes tentative. He does well with water marks. I have NOT done swim-bys with him, and it sounds like that's something I need to work on. On land, he handles ok, but his lines aren't as straight as they need to be. Do I need to get his lines straightened out before I can expect him to do a swim-by?


Riverbend,
It's not always pretty, especially when someone has an axe to grind, but rest assured, you will receive a lot of input here. Some will be good, some will not be so good, so you have to learn which bones to spit out, so to speak. Like others have said, keep asking questions, and if you don't understand something, ask for clarification. If someone writes something you don't like, don't get upset, though. It's easy to misinterpret the written word. Just respectfully ask more questions, and I think you'll find the answers you need.

You will need to provide as much details about what training you have done up to now. When they ask you what program you're following, if any, and where you are in that program, it gives them a better idea of where to begin and what to recommend. So put it all out there. 

Here's a link to a flowchart that might give you an idea of the kind of progression that one might follow to get to swim-by:
http://totalretriever.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=102

In looking at that chart, where are you and your dog? You may or may not be familiar with all the terms, but if not, just ask.

Ah- I see that I took too long to finish my post.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Riverbend said:


> I got him to handle by using the baseball configuration, gradually increasing the distances to the bumpers. I'm not exactly sure what the single and double Ts are...


In more modern programs there is a sequential progression through the T drills, which teach your dog the basic casts; Back, and Over (left and right). In virtually all modern programs this begins with a little drill called 3-handed casting, and progresses to Mini-T, where sitting to whistle is first incorporated.

From there the dog moves to a full scale T; 100 yards to the Back pile. But all of this follows a thorough course of force fetch. I believe force fetch is a process you should respect, but not fear. It is human nature that we tend to fear most what we understand least. Force fetch is one of those aspects of training that a great many people don’t understand, and so they tend to expect the worst.


Riverbend said:


> I have been following Richard Wolter's program in Water Dog (I know it's pretty dated). I have not worked on force-fetching with this dog, primarily because I'm uneasy about how that might affect my "bond" with this dog. Is that a legitimate fear? I do use an e-collar occasionally for basic obedience, and he does understand that he's got the ability to turn it off.


As many here have advised, one of the best things you could do at this point is get a far more up to date program, study it, and put it to work. Give your dog a full set of formal Basics. That will be a foundation of core skills for a lifetime.

Evan


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Riverbend said:


> I have been following Richard Wolter's program in Water Dog (I know it's pretty dated). I have not worked on force-fetching with this dog, primarily because I'm uneasy about how that might affect my "bond" with this dog. Is that a legitimate fear? I do use an e-collar occassionally for basic obedience, and he does understand that he's got the ability to turn it off.


Even though Water Dogs is a great book ( It was the first book I ever read, some 15 years ago.) It is not a so called " program" What you need is a step by step process. All the way from Sit, Stay, come to advance control work. Hope this helps
Keith


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

Riverbend said:


> I got him to handle by using the baseball configuration, gradually increasing the distances to the bumpers. I'm not exactly sure what the single and double Ts are...


Others, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Baseball is very similar to what Evan would call Mini-T, probably with a few fine differences. T would be a drill, part of "yard work", and run in the same place every time, wherein the dog is cast to a back pile (a pile of bumpers set at a distance of 100 yards or so), and then stopped along the way and cast "over" to either a left pile or a right pile. Double T, or TT as it's called here, adds a second set of over piles along the route to the back pile. I think Wolters has you run this on a pattern mowed into a field- which you don't want to do, and you don't need to do (something I learned here on RTF!).









Now, you don't just start running this- it's something you have to work up to. Your baseball work provides some foundation for this, but there are some other things you need to build up before you go for a full TT. I'll let others provide better details on that, but as an overview you would need (sorry if I have forgotten any steps):

Fetch (whether or not you force fetch [FF] or not is up to you, but I would recommend it- if done properly, it won't hurt your bond with the dog at all)
Fetch to pile/force to pile (dog learns that it MUST go when you say go, and FF gives you a good tool to help accomplish this)
Extend the distance to the pile, until the dog is going on "back" to 100 yds or so
Sit to whistle (first at side, then at increasing distance, with dog stopping, turning to face you squarely, and waiting for a cast)
Introduce each arm of a single T
TT

TT involves a LOT of concepts, and introduces a LOT of new skills. These will provide a foundation that you can use later in ALL areas of training, not just water.


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

Where are you located? I would try and find a good training group to join. You can find some local events and go there and meet people. They more than likely will be able to help you out and happy to do so as long as you are willing to throw a bird or two. Experienced people will be able to show you what to do. 

Also I recommend a good program. Smartworks, Fowldogs, and Total retriever seem to be the most popular. Follow it step by step and you will be amazed at what al dog can do!

Russell


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds like you have a good dog to get as far as you have with nothing more than your baseball drill. If you really want a GOOD blind running dog you will need to teach him more skills. I can spit out a bunch of stuff you wont understand but that wont get you anywhere. If you go to www.finelineretrievers.com you can purchase Fowl Dawgs 1,2 and 3 for $60.00 It is a complete program on dvd. It is very detailed and will work great for you. All you will need to do is start from the begining and complete each step. If your dog is great at the first few steps than you know for sure you can move on. Once you get to something new progress will slow down which means you are now teaching. If your gonna work your butt off with the dog and hes gonna do his best why not set him up to get it right?

Get the DVD's you wont be sorry !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck and welcome to rtf.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Training with Mike Lardy Articles Volume I

This is fairly inexpensive and definitely worth adding to your collection and reading. It is very easy reading and excellent, step-wise articles to walk you through the flow chart. You can use it with Lardy's DVD's or with Stawski's. 

Personally, I'd suggest getting both.

Chris


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

road kill said:


> This is Ray's picture.


How did you get it off of his desktop? That is l337


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

River end, go read this thread. I wrote a variety things over the years to help with this. You need to do this on land then move to water.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...else-dislike-T-and-TT&highlight=Pattern+force

/paul


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Riverbend, do take the time to read this one. It is my "go to" advice. Thanks for bringing it up. I need to spend some ttime on it again with my current pup! Enjoy your dog, the learning, and it will come.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Was reading Paul's thread noted above and this was the line that caught my attention: *Practice talking, walking, breathing, eating err ok not eating, with the whistle in your mouth. a good drill is to put the whistle in your mouth while your driving and sing along with the radio. Please take pics if you try this. *

LOL 
Pics please!


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

*whistle in mouth*



PhilBernardi said:


> Was reading Paul's thread noted above and this was the line that caught my attention: *Practice talking, walking, breathing, eating err ok not eating, with the whistle in your mouth. a good drill is to put the whistle in your mouth while your driving and sing along with the radio. Please take pics if you try this. *
> 
> LOL
> Pics please!



If you try to talk or sing with the whistle in your mouth you will understand why some dogs have trouble getting their tongue out of the way when they have a bumper in their mouth and it is a hot day .....Steve S


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

So neat that this thread turned so good and helpful!!!! Good job you guys, it helped so many more people than just Riverbend! You guys are awesome!

Jennifer


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

This did end up with folkss trying to help which is great. Riverbend please get and follow a program with this dog and dont just go and do a step or two. Even if its done right there is more. Good luck its eaisier than you think.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Training with Mike Lardy Articles Volume I
> 
> This is fairly inexpensive and definitely worth adding to your collection and reading. It is very easy reading and excellent, step-wise articles to walk you through the flow chart. You can use it with Lardy's DVD's or with Stawski's.
> 
> ...


Riverbend Welcome I agree with both these fellows. Best money you ever spend!! Also look up a group in your area to get involved. Just remember we were all in your shoes at one time. Always ask questions. Good luck.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Riverbend,welcome to RTF. That said you have finally been getting some good advice. I have been on here a long time and Evan, Tim, Paul and Ken are very helpful. Don't feel bad about them asking where you are in your dog's training. They need to know as much as possible so they can give you answers and suggestions that will help you.


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

I had a simiar problem- started walking around pond dropping bumpers near water with dog with me- then went to other side and sent him from my side- it worked so I moved bumpers away from shore- worked- then left him in truck whilst i set out bumpers-marked them with orange tape so i did not forget where they were- it worked so now I have no problems and I often send him with me standing along side of him facing him as i would from boat- etc- many times I must send my dogs for blinds when it is not easy to have them sit at my knee so I practice it all year long-


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PhilBernardi said:


> Was reading Paul's thread noted above and this was the line that caught my attention: *Practice talking, walking, breathing, eating err ok not eating, with the whistle in your mouth. a good drill is to put the whistle in your mouth while your driving and sing along with the radio. Please take pics if you try this. *
> 
> LOL
> Pics please!


At Stewart Airport Grounds way down in NY running NAHRA Intermediate under Roy Shepard and Bruce Caplin many years ago. Last part of the test, the water blind. A dog I was running clearly passed and as it was a title run, folk were back slapping and stuff. No need to wait for the ribbon ceremony. As everyone knew Gate and I and she failed many, many tests. So from thanking the judges to the gauntlet of gallery back to the truck. Gave her a big drink. Staked her out on the shade. Then got a can of mountain dew out of the cooler for myself. Popped the top, head back to enjoy and “CLUNK” slammed the can into the whistle still firmly clenched ‘tween my teeth!!! Cluster of gallerias that oddly had kinds been watching me go to truck started cracking up and I swear handing money forth and back. They had been betting on when I would notice I still had the whistle in my mouth. It happens.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

So Ken is saying you need to practice drinking while your whistle is in your mouth also.


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