# HRC Test NEEDS Entries!



## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Like many HRC tests in the area this spring, entries are way down, and unfortunately Backwater RC is no exception. Our test is scheduled for June 16,17 and we still have quite a few openings in each of the test levels. We have super nice grounds and great judges, along with a raffle that includes THREE E-collars, THREE Winger Gift certificates. There will also be a bumper throwing contest with the winner taking cash! 

Going to be a pretty awesome weekend folks, don't miss it! Entries close June 8th on www.huntsecretary.com


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Good luck. We canceled ours as did the other club close to us. Numbers are up for our AKC test. Hate to see HRC slowly dying.


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Good luck. We canceled ours as did the other club close to us. Numbers are up for our AKC test. Hate to see HRC slowly dying.


"slowly dying" because a couple clubs canceled their tests? Ok!!


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## Hairy Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

If ya'll were closer, I'd run it. A bit too far of a drive though. Good luck, hope you get enough to make a good day of it.


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## SSCarnage (Feb 3, 2012)

Well I hope these tests don't get cancelled next season! My buddy and I are planning on coming down next year and hitting a bunch of the tests near the Detroit/Windsor border!


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

It's early Abbey. That's the problem with HRC and online entries, there is no cut off date for entries so folks will wait until after the cut off date to mail the entries in.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

Andy Symons said:


> "slowly dying" because a couple clubs canceled their tests? Ok!!


more than 2 clubs have canceled our numbers are down [mississippi flyway hrc] from 3yrs ago then we had 2 full flights of finished 1 full seasoned and 50 started to this year 1 finished and way down in seasoned and started.where are the finished dogs going to come from in 3-4 years with low seasoned and started numbers down.we can down play the impact  of this but it needs to be talked about instead of pretending it is not a problem.numbers are down at all the clubs i look at. also its hard to get new members our youngest member is in his 40s. when doing yard work at home people comment how well behaved my dogs are and ask for advice and ask how to do it after explaining it. the next time i see them they are being pulled down the road by thier dogs. people don't want to spend the time.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Andy Symons said:


> "slowly dying" because a couple clubs canceled their tests? Ok!!


yeah, it is dying in Florida when two of the three clubs that hold test cancel them. I guess in your mind that means it is thriving? Take off your blinders. I love HRC, but in our area and others that I read about on here there are problems with numbers. Keep your head in the sand and the next time you pull it out HRC will be gone. I don't want that, but there is something that is leading to decreased numbers and canceled test. Our club had tried all sorts of things to get decent numbers including bringing in "celebrity" judges, using live pheasants for upland, changing dates...
The people who show up to run our test are all club members and old HRC guys. It cost us money every year and it is not because we do not know what we are doing, we have been an HRC club for over 25 years. We hold two AKC HT and one AKC field trial each year and all of those thrive, have high numbers, and make money. 
I wish I could tell you why HRC is dying in our state, and in my opinion others, but after much thought I can't.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Abby (sp?), I agree with Bill.

MIHRC completed their test yesterday and I was the Hunt Secretary. We got 4 Started entries and 1 Seasoned entry the day of the test. I took many entries after our drop dead date (two weeks prior to the test date). We have that date there, but some don't know of their plans until later or at least want to wait for the last minute to decide. Whether an entry deadline two weeks from the date of the test is good or bad, I'm not sure; but it is easier on the Hunt Secretary to have 80% of their work done a 2-3 days before the actual event. Remember, we're all volunteers in the cause and game we commit to.

Yes, entries are down in the GL area, but our final totals in both Started and Seasoned where up slightly from last year and this is good. Finished was full as usual.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

I'd be happy to run your test, but I don't have a healthy dog at the moment. :-(


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## louisianadukdog (Mar 22, 2006)

I'm interested to know if numbers are down everywhere or mainly in the south??? I think numbers being down in the south can be attributed to the Master National being Held in Alabama this year. I know a lot of people were / are running master test instead of HRC tests to try to qualify for the MN. Just a thought!! I know the Master Tests i went to this spring were all "Full" Appears to be a trend toward AKC from HRC but like I mentioned...could be circumstance. I hope people aren't leaving HRC all together!! I love em both!!


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

Here in Ontario Canada we have 5 HRC club, was 6 but Essex was move out of our region. Of the 5 clubs: 2 have cancelled, one has gone back to a 1 day hunt and one moved their date. The dates and location of the Grand have affected the clubs as many of our workers want to run the Grand We moved our date last year to accommodate workers and handlers, the club that changed this year did also, of the 2 cancellations one was for financial reasons and the other I believe was part Grand and part reorganization of hunt location (don't quote me on this). The hunt this coming weekend is reporting full finished flights but has room in seasoned and started. Our hunt has drop to single flights of finished both days. Getting judges is becoming a problem as the pool is small here in the north and the expense of bring judges from other regions is becoming prohibitive.
I also run Canadian hunt tests and judged a junior with 14 dogs this past weekend. I can remember the day when a junior would have 50 dogs running. The next one we are judging will be a combined junior/senior because the club just does not get the entries.
Our Field Trial numbers are also down here in Ontario. A few years ago the average All Age stake would be between 50 and 60 dogs (not huge by American standards but larger than the other provinces). Now numbers are between 30 and 40. The lesser stakes are even lower in number. It is probably a combination of things, economy, too many games to play, competing against the pros in FT's, not enough new blood coming in, old age (for me), one hundred ane excuses etc. We try to keep people coming in but when some see how much work it is they would rather be boating or golfing.


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

We have just closed early entries for our test, YWHRC in Region 2. Our entries have been down the last 2 years but have rebounded slightly this year. Our biggest loss is in started. I believe that a lot of this has to do with the economy. A lot of our started entries were from people who primarily ran AKC. They were entering started to put another field title on their dog but did not have their sights set on higher levels. With limited funds due to high gas prices and a weak economy people are being more selective where they spend their money. They are concentrating on one venue. Our finished entries have remained about the same. I am pleasantly surpised by a small increase in seasoned. I believe that the people in started now are those that are in it for the long haul and will be the finished entry of the future. We survive by keeping our expenses down and using only volunteer help. Put on a good test and they will come. Maybe not in the numbers that we had in the past but I believe as the economy improves so will our entries. Anyone interested in running at Yankee Waterfowler in Woodstock, CT June 2,3. We have room in all stakes.

Wayne Sumner
HRC HT Co-chair


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Maybe I'm naive, but I think it's a the economy. It's tough to justify 3-400 dollars in gas, food, entry fees etc to go to a HT when you're worrying about paying the mortgage.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Think of the demographic that HRC aims for (or should be aiming for). HRC is aimed at the weekend trainer whose primary interest is a good dog come hunting season. The AKC events appeal to those whose primary interest is performance dogs as well as the person who wants a better hunting dog. In this lean economy the hunter has just so many dollars and has to choose between a couple of weekends testing or perhaps that new beretta or maybe the trip to Canada, or as previously suggested the mortgage. The dog enthusiast or increasingly enthusiastess doesn't necessarily have the same competition for disposable dollars.

I am not trying to be judgemental. As a grass roots organization, HRC needs to quit worrying about the Grand and get after more of the casual hunter with a dog. Show that person what a trained dog can do, and more importantly how the casual hunter can improve his/her dog without an enormous time/money commitment (hehe). This may be a heresy to some of those on this board, but without all the HT organizations doing their level best to pull in the casual hunter, HT's will continue to lose relevance and field trials will continue to depopulate.


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## Johnny Drew (Oct 7, 2010)

We had our test in Feb. we had 2 almost full finished flights, full seasoned, and started was almost full, but another club had to cancel due to low entries later in the spring. I think that HRC should make dogs quailfy for the grand every year like they do in AKC, that way people would have to run tests. which would help entries at the local level. And also let handlers bring more than 8 dogs. I talked to a pro trainer and he said AKC will let him bring more than 8 dogs and he can make his clients happy by getting ribbons/passes on their dogs, that pays the bills. He also said HRC is where he started and would love to be able to bring a truck load to every test he could make. I hope the powers to be will see the issue and address it.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

red devil said:


> Think of the demographic that HRC aims for (or should be aiming for). HRC is aimed at the weekend trainer whose primary interest is a good dog come hunting season. The AKC events appeal to those whose primary interest is performance dogs as well as the person who wants a better hunting dog. In this lean economy the hunter has just so many dollars and has to choose between a couple of weekends testing or perhaps that new beretta or maybe the trip to Canada, or as previously suggested the mortgage. The dog enthusiast or increasingly enthusiastess doesn't necessarily have the same competition for disposable dollars.
> 
> I am not trying to be judgemental. As a grass roots organization, HRC needs to quit worrying about the Grand and get after more of the casual hunter with a dog. Show that person what a trained dog can do, and more importantly how the casual hunter can improve his/her dog without an enormous time/money commitment (hehe). This may be a heresy to some of those on this board, but without all the HT organizations doing their level best to pull in the casual hunter, HT's will continue to lose relevance and field trials will continue to depopulate.


Nice post!


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

Johnny Drew said:


> We had our test in Feb. we had 2 almost full finished flights, full seasoned, and started was almost full, but another club had to cancel due to low entries later in the spring. *I think that HRC should make dogs quailfy for the grand every year like they do in AKC, that way people would have to run tests. which would help entries at the local level.* And also let handlers bring more than 8 dogs. I talked to a pro trainer and he said AKC will let him bring more than 8 dogs and he can make his clients happy by getting ribbons/passes on their dogs, that pays the bills. He also said HRC is where he started and would love to be able to bring a truck load to every test he could make. I hope the powers to be will see the issue and address it.


How much thought have you given this? There are 2 grands per year. Do you propose we qualify for each? How many passes to qualify? Some regions have only a few tests/clubs. In Region 2 we have only 5 tests per year. We also have a very small pool of judges. Most of us end up judging in about half the tests. I quess we can refuse to judge or just not only give up our chance to run our dog at the local test, we can also give up our chance to enter the grand. Maybe the pros can judge. Oh wait, they are busy collecting handler fee to make their clients happy. I'm not against pros but I have spent too much time waiting for handlers to get from one stake to another with just 8 dogs. There is already a rule change proposed to increase that number. We will see how that fairs at the National Meeting.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

wsumner said:


> How much thought have you given this? There are 2 grands per year. Do you propose we qualify for each? How many passes to qualify? Some regions have only a few tests/clubs. In Region 2 we have only 5 tests per year. We also have a very small pool of judges. Most of us end up judging in about half the tests. I quess we can refuse to judge or just not only give up our chance to run our dog at the local test, we can also give up our chance to enter the grand. Maybe the pros can judge. Oh wait, they are busy collecting handler fee to make their clients happy. I'm not against pros but I have spent too much time waiting for handlers to get from one stake to another with just 8 dogs. There is already a rule change proposed to increase that number. We will see how that fairs at the National Meeting.


Pretty much the attitude that will help HRC continue to have poor entries. All you offer is negative feedback without even thinking of discussing the possible benifits of an idea. We can't do this, we can't do that, the pros suck... This is they way it goes in HRC, rather than look at an idea and see how it might help make something better they immediately go negative as to why it can't be done. 
The idea of qualifying for the Grand each year has merit. Are there issues with it? Sure there are issues with any changes, but often the benefits out weigh the pitfalls. I believe that Johnny has a point. I know several folks that run AKC to get ready for the Grand and don't run as much HRC because they believe that master is a more difficult test and prepares them for the Grand better. They want to be a part of the big dance but are not feeding the clubs that are the heart of the organization.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

red devil said:


> Think of the demographic that HRC aims for (or should be aiming for). HRC is aimed at the weekend trainer whose primary interest is a good dog come hunting season. The AKC events appeal to those whose primary interest is performance dogs as well as the person who wants a better hunting dog. In this lean economy the hunter has just so many dollars and has to choose between a couple of weekends testing or perhaps that new beretta or maybe the trip to Canada, or as previously suggested the mortgage. The dog enthusiast or increasingly enthusiastess doesn't necessarily have the same competition for disposable dollars.
> 
> I am not trying to be judgemental. As a grass roots organization, HRC needs to quit worrying about the Grand and get after more of the casual hunter with a dog. Show that person what a trained dog can do, and more importantly how the casual hunter can improve his/her dog without an enormous time/money commitment (hehe). This may be a heresy to some of those on this board, but without all the HT organizations doing their level best to pull in the casual hunter, HT's will continue to lose relevance and field trials will continue to depopulate.


I'm with ya on this Stu. The Grand is a great thing, and while I would like to have a go again someday (especially after getting good reports back from friends still in it today), I just don't have the time and don't want to spend the money. Right now I'm lucky if I can train the dogs once a week. The better half of this marriage wants to spend some time with me on the weekends so I have to make a few concessions given that work takes up most of my awake time Monday through Friday.

Central Michigan and St. Clair Flats are also in a bind for entries. We maybe have 10 dogs per day at Started, 7 and 2 repsectively for Seasoned, 34 dogs Saturday and 26 dogs Sunday at Finished. We are going to lose our assets on this test if we don't get some dogs in at the lower flights!

Abby, I would come down and run the dogs to support BUT I am flying out to Korea that weekend so I won't be available. Given my preferences between eating bad food and running a hunt test, you know what my decision would be if I had the choice.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Just a thought here, but we just had record numbers here at Music City... Just a guess, it may be a timing thing. The tests have to hit it right and fit togther with travel schedules and AKC tests.


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## goosebruce (Jan 10, 2003)

The economy is tough.... we've had to deal with a lot of people running masters in our area this year that normally don't. That said, I judged in feb in texas 25 finished dogs on sat (both flights), and 45 started dogs on sunday... I judged in march in texas, full finished flights, and 30 seasoned dogs and 26 started dogs. Our club southern flight, had 22-25 started dogs, turned dogs away in seasoned and finished. Old hatchie weekend before last, judged 25-26 dogs in finished both days, and had 25 started and 30+ seasoned dogs. Music city just had the biggest hunt test in hrc history as far as I know... SF, OH, and MC all had masters in our area the same weekend.... But when times are tough, people choose events where they can get the most bang for their buck... and that means dates, clubs that are fun, good judges, and good grounds. North Alabama had their prelim this spring, and had to ADD a finished flight and pay 25 bucks a duck for the extra birds for the event... had fun, put on a good test, and made money. Some clubs are down, but some clubs haven't noticed a bit of difference... we filled up earlier than we ever have in the 13 year history of our club. Last fall we had to add a 3rd flight, and had dogs to add a 4th, running against a master the same weekend within 45 minutes of us. I guess my point is, if you're not fillling up or down on entries, look and see why. Dont blame akc tests, gas, or certainly not hrc emphisis on the Grand. Maybe you need to do something different, date, look, judges, grounds, whatever. 
HRC is not dying. Its strong in this part of the country as ever. 
The Grand is our ntaional event. it can not exist without the weekend program. But the weekend program can't exsist without it. Emphisis should be on the weekend program on the weekends, and the Grand when its Grand time. You dont have an international organization with national sponsors, without a national event. 
Last wiscosin grand, was the same weekend as our fall hunt. We thought itd kill us. We filled completely up like always, even with several of our 'group' running and judging in wiscosin. travis


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

ebenezer said:


> Here in Ontario Canada we have 5 HRC club, was 6 but Essex was move out of our region. Of the 5 clubs: 2 have cancelled, one has gone back to a 1 day hunt and one moved their date. The dates and location of the Grand have affected the clubs as many of our workers want to run the Grand We moved our date last year to accommodate workers and handlers, the club that changed this year did also, of the 2 cancellations one was for financial reasons and the other I believe was part Grand and part reorganization of hunt location (don't quote me on this). The hunt this coming weekend is reporting full finished flights but has room in seasoned and started. Our hunt has drop to single flights of finished both days. Getting judges is becoming a problem as the pool is small here in the north and the expense of bring judges from other regions is becoming prohibitive.
> I also run Canadian hunt tests and judged a junior with 14 dogs this past weekend. I can remember the day when a junior would have 50 dogs running. The next one we are judging will be a combined junior/senior because the club just does not get the entries.
> Our Field Trial numbers are also down here in Ontario. A few years ago the average All Age stake would be between 50 and 60 dogs (not huge by American standards but larger than the other provinces). Now numbers are between 30 and 40. The lesser stakes are even lower in number. It is probably a combination of things, economy, too many games to play, competing against the pros in FT's, not enough new blood coming in, old age (for me), one hundred ane excuses etc. We try to keep people coming in but when some see how much work it is they would rather be boating or golfing.


I agree your comments. It is very hard in this economy to find the dollars. Often work comes first to provide the dollars participate. as well as pay the BILLS!!! Where I am located distance is a factor as well as age and money. To be out all day in tiring!!!Gas is expensive at times. ( I think we are a dollar more per liter / gallon than the US and that is why I do little testing in Ontario). Also many days are spent training alone just because...$$$ so I drive just up behind the cemetary (1 mile away)



A lot hinges on attracting new folks. I hear there is an event up in Orangeville like an Outdoor Weekend expo and HRC group from Ontario is putting on demonstartions etc. I urge everyone to participate and help out as this is one way to attract new comers to the sport. I will try to have the organizer post when etc. Maybe HRC needs more of this exposure???

I can understand your points taken on finding new people and where do they get the help to progress so they can participate?? CMHRC has been excellent in providing those opportunites (next one is June 16th) but often not many come or if they do show up it is the same old. For me if I can attend and the practice is not too far these group practices are invaluable. Here is where you can listen, learn and share stories and get your dog out for some group experience. etc. But again we need to attract more people!!!!

I have been very fortunate to find in Strathroy Ontario (3/4 hour away) a group of HRC fellows but in particular two fellows that will assist anyone in HRC technique. This has worked for me but you have to be prepared to do your homework!!! That may put alot of people off as working your dog to the Finished level is not easy but can be done!! 

Maybe HRC has to look at how they accept entry fees and make their closing dates even closer to the test dates so people have a chance to make their minds up. I often can't decide until pay date and that sometimes fall after closing date. Often I can call or Email and get a receptive response and can enter late.

Running of the Grand and The Master National close to local tests would hurt and maybe HRC needs to look at the dates. 

I have also noticed at some tests there are less women running. I know the gun sometimes is a factor but all the judges are extremely good about showing you and letting you know if you forgot something. HRC really is a great venue to run under. Even as nervous as I am at times the judges and people always make you feel welcome and you have fun . 

I have no answers for what is happening and like everyone else hope that this is not a trend. For now all we can do is support our clubs the best we can. If our dog is not ready just supply manpower for a couple of hours or more. We all can hope the economy becomes better on both sides of the border. Until then....


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## Steve Pittiglio (Aug 15, 2011)

Abbey:

What's the handler fee if I sign up LG for a day?


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## Spartazoo (Sep 28, 2011)

It is probably a number of factors, however the high sustained price of gas is No. 1 in my opinion. People are prepared for the expense of a hotel or campsite, food, and entry fees. Those costs have always been there for many of the hobbies people do. Whether it is a hunt test or something else. In my case it is/was drag racing. It is the price of gas that is the wildcard. When gas sustains the pricing we have seen for the past 3.5 years, it impacts spending by business, peoples day to day expenses, and of course hobbies. 

For the economy to truly pickup, gas prices coming down will have to happen. High gas prices are taking too many discretionary dollars out of the economy.


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## Flying Dutchman (May 1, 2009)

Spartazoo,

The logical part of me wants to agree with you. Gas prices are the one thing that's noticeably different from 5-6 years ago and seem to coincide with decreased entry fees. At the same time, gas prices are high down south, too, and they seem to be getting their entries. Also interesting, there's another post on here by "roadkill" entitled, "Reason you are not running?" In that post, less than half the respondents blamed economy or finances. Sure some did, but a lot of others chose age, dog readiness, and other factors. I don't have a clue how you can combat those issues, so maybe gas prices are the only reason that it's possible to change, but I'm not sure if it is the economy or not - especially with some clubs seemingly filling up.

Another hypothesis I've been developing lately, that might take the economy into account, but not blame it for everything is that the economy in general and the sense that work and income are tenuous is keeping new people from "trying out" a new hobby. If you notice, it appears that Finished flights are largely filling all over the country. Even the clubs that have had really low numbers have had a decent number of, if not a full flight of Finished dogs entered. It's the Started and Seasoned dogs that aren't filling up. I wonder if that is because in the past, Started was full of folks with a pet that played catch who had a hunting buddy tell them, "Hey, you should try Fido in a hunt test. I'm pretty sure he could pass Started right now!" Now, we all know that if you get those people to a hunt test 75% or better of them will get the bug and be addicted and pay the money to continue in the game, but if that guy - be it neighbor, hunting buddy, work associate, or whatever - says, "Nah, I really can't afford to enter, drive, stay in a hotel, etc. just to try out something new," then they never get the bug and HRC never gets the new blood it needs to keep running. 

If this is the problem, I don't have the answer for it, either, but this hypothesis might give logical reason to why we have plenty of Finished dogs (those folks are already bought and paid for!), but no Started dogs. Just thinking out loud.


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## Spartazoo (Sep 28, 2011)

Dutchman,

I agree with what you are saying about getting new people involved. As a family that is very new to the hunt test game, I can tell you getting started is intimidating. To the casual retriever owner/hunter the thought of competing in a hunt test/field trial (to those that don't know they are one in the same) is scary. The common response is "that's not for me all I want is a meat dog". Translated - I don't want to spend that much time training my dog. And as you said, if those people would just try it, they would get hooked. My wife and I are living proof of that.

What we have found is a wonderful hobby that is filled with great people. We have had nothing but a blast doing this and we have only done two tests. My wife loves it and is going to handle our dogs in future tests. She has posted pictures on Facebook and people are shocked that she would do this, camo and all. Point being the general impression of organized tests/trials is an anxiety filled competition that is not appealing to the casual lab, chessie, golden owner. 

We have three kids between the ages of 5 and 9. We deal with school, scouts, baseball, dance, basketball, football, etc... just like everyone else. What we have elected to do is not find time but make time for this wonderful hobby and make it work.

I should not even go here being so new... 

What HRC needs to do better job of, is outreach to the 1000's of retriever owners to help them understand a few things.

1. The difference between field trials and hunt tests - Most people that have not gotten involved think they are the same thing.
2. What is a Hunt Test - Hunt tests are a test against a standard not a competition against other dogs or people.
3. HRC is local - in many cases people just aren't aware of how many clubs are out there in many of the regions. I know I didn't until we really dug.
4. HRC is kid friendly. As an alternative to baseball, football, basketball, my 9 year old son is going to run our 3yr old in started in August. 

Our hunter/lab owner friends are intrigued by what we are doing because we are the first in our "group" to travel this path. But as you say, their main reason for not trying it out is too busy with kids which often means they don't want to invest the time training their dog.

I spoke of HRC because that is what we are focused on right now. We are planning our venture into AKC this fall.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Every once in awhile, threads like this pop up bemoaning the apparant demise of Venue X, Y, or Z.

The reality is all things are cyclical. If you've been around the dog games long enough, you've seen this.

You have years where there are plenty of young dogs and then the numbers go down....
One year AKC field trials/tests are full and HRC tests languish (or vice versa).

There are many factors involved, but IMO the economy is probably the biggest influence. (surprise!)

Other factors:
Liberal bag limits bring newbs (and their dogs) into the game
National event locality (for example the MN is in our region this year, which has pulled lots of dogs to AKC HT)
Family


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

"But the weekend program can't exsist without it."

I'm not trying to be smart, but why can't the weekend program exist without the Grand?


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Thomas D said:


> "But the weekend program can't exsist without it."
> 
> I'm not trying to be smart, but why can't the weekend program exist without the Grand?


I'm glad you asked because I was wondering the same thing.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> "But the weekend program can't exsist without it."
> 
> I'm not trying to be smart, but why can't the weekend program exist without the Grand?


I was hoping that someone was being facetious alas I was wrong.

"The Grand is our ntaional event. it can not exist without the weekend program. But the weekend program can't exsist without it. Emphisis should be on the weekend program on the weekends, and the Grand when its Grand time. You dont have an international organization with national sponsors, without a national event." 

The basis of this thought is totally off. The international organization exists because there is more than one country involved in HRC. The Grand has nothing to do with the international or national status of HRC. Further, the weekend events are the feeder venues for the Grand. Only HRCH titled dogs are eligible to run the Grand. If the weekend tests didn't exist, then the Grand would cease to exist unless the purveyors of the sanctioned event came up with another qualification method. Who feeds who here?


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Pretty much the attitude that will help HRC continue to have poor entries. All you offer is negative feedback without even thinking of discussing the possible benifits of an idea. We can't do this, we can't do that, the pros suck... This is they way it goes in HRC, rather than look at an idea and see how it might help make something better they immediately go negative as to why it can't be done.
> The idea of qualifying for the Grand each year has merit. Are there issues with it? Sure there are issues with any changes, but often the benefits out weigh the pitfalls. I believe that Johnny has a point. I know several folks that run AKC to get ready for the Grand and don't run as much HRC because they believe that master is a more difficult test and prepares them for the Grand better. They want to be a part of the big dance but are not feeding the clubs that are the heart of the organization.


I find it ironic that you say that an attitude like mine helps continue the poor entries in HRC and I am chairing a test this weekend with an increase of over 10% from last year and you are on here crying about tests being cancelled in your area. LOL In our region Johnny's proposal for qualifing every year would creat more problem then it would solve. We had a total of 4 dogs from region 2 go to the grand. Most of them will miss two of our five weekends of tests while at the grand. That is why I oppose it. On top of that the stakes with the smallest entries are started and seasoned. How it qualifing for the grand going to help that? 
We have limit test grounds here in New England and test are often spread out over several locations. Judges and handlers frequently have to wait longer then they should for handlers and dogs to get from one stake to another. Some of the grounds have curfews and testing must stop at a set time. Having more than 8 dogs makes things harder for those trying to put on the test. If a pro needs to run more that 8 dogs all he has to do is hire an assistant and let him run 8 more dogs. At least that way one could be running dogs at seasoned while the other is at finished. That is why I and all the New England clubs oppose more than 8 dogs per handler. 
Come up with a well thought out idea and a plan to execute it and I will be in favor of it.
Come on up and run at Yankee Waterfowler HRC in Woodstock, CT this weekend and I'll buy you a beer. 

Wayne


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

> Dutchman,
> 
> I agree with what you are saying about getting new people involved. As a family that is very new to the hunt test game, I can tell you getting started is intimidating. To the casual retriever owner/hunter the thought of competing in a hunt test/field trial (to those that don't know they are one in the same) is scary. The common response is "that's not for me all I want is a meat dog". Translated - I don't want to spend that much time training my dog. And as you said, if those people would just try it, they would get hooked. My wife and I are living proof of that.
> 
> ...


Dadgumit.... This should be required reading for every HRC officer, judge and anybody considering starting a club.... THANK YOU


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

wsumner said:


> I find it ironic that you say that an attitude like mine helps continue the poor entries in HRC and I am chairing a test this weekend with an increase of over 10% from last year and you are on here crying about tests being cancelled in your area. LOL In our region Johnny's proposal for qualifing every year would creat more problem then it would solve. We had a total of 4 dogs from region 2 go to the grand. Most of them will miss two of our five weekends of tests while at the grand. That is why I oppose it. On top of that the stakes with the smallest entries are started and seasoned. How it qualifing for the grand going to help that?
> 
> Come up with a well thought out idea and a plan to execute it and I will be in favor of it.
> Come on up and run at Yankee Waterfowler HRC in Woodstock, CT this weekend and I'll buy you a beer.
> ...


See that is the "ours ain't broken so why change anything" attitude I am talking


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## caryalsobrook (Mar 22, 2010)

This thread has been quite interesting. I'm not going to try to offer suggestions on how to increase participation but will just say how I approach entries for my dogs. Right now I run 2 girls who got their HRCH titles last year and now are running AKC master. One has 5 passes and only needs one more for her title. I really don't have much interest in running the same level over and over again with the same dog. That being said, running the National Master is something I have little interest, given that you have to run Master year after year to re-qualify. Since they are now qualified for the Grand and can run it at any time, that is certainly an option I am considering. Maybe I will try to run Qualifying. The thought of a new challenge is what I look for, not running at the same level over and over again. This should not be taken as criticism of HRC, AKC, hunt tests or Field trials. It is just a statement of what I personally look to do. That is once the dog has accomplished a level, I look for a new challenge.


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## goosebruce (Jan 10, 2003)

he orginal intent of the Grand was for people to have something to do with their hunting retreiver champions after the got their HRCH. In that regard, it has succeeded moreso than anyone could have imagined. The 500 point and up jacket clubs do the same thing, but to a lesser extent. Honestly, I already got a 500, 1000, 1500 point jacket on one dog, why would I care about the next 3 500 point jackets I got? Those dogs ran enough tests because we where getting ready for the Grand. I got an upland title on my first dog... why did I get UH on all those other dogs? Because they where going to run the Grand. Why did we ever host an upland, or I become one of 3 upland judges in my state? The Grand. Why did I not go the way of several others that came up with me, CH their dogs then go run Masters, then on to field trials? Because I loved the Grand, and I loved hrc. Those guys still love hrc, they just dont run the Grand so they never run more tests than it takes to get an hrch. I can run a master for 70 bucks a weekend, but its 130 or 140 bucks to run a finished test. Why have I passed several hundred finished tests, but dont have a master pass? Ive had dogs with master passes, but others took them an ran. I wouldnt spend a weekend away from hrc to go somewhere else... The Grand gave me something to do with my dogs once I became way past proficent to run finished tests. Why was I a club officer for 13 years and have 90 judging assignments.. cause I love hrc and the Grand gave me a reason to stay in. look at the judges list of judges with over 100 assignements... all except for one I can think of run and or have judged the grand. Im not alone in my thought process.
Why would a company want to be a national sponsor for an organization that doesnt have a national event? I can think of better ways for my company to spend a butt load of money. Face it, nothing these days rolls without corprate money. Sit down and do the math one day on what dog entry fees to hrc is, and what our sponsors spend... look at our budget. 
The word getting out is a problem. I live in memphis, with 6 hrc clubs within 2.5 hours of us. And I still find people constantly that dont know about hrc. 

Gas prices are defiantly part of it. I'll spend 650 on fuel this weekend to go run a test. My hotel is 80. My entries are 840. The fuel is as much as my entries for the most part the hotel the least.
But the lack of dogs in lower levels follows the puppy market bottoming out 2 years ago. When people didn't buy puppies they didn't train puppies therefore they didn't come to
Your hunt test...
We've done several things to keep the flow. One er always plan on full. Doing the minimum to get by shows. Early cut off dates seem like a good ideal, but there was a time not long ago you had to get into a test a month ahead of time to even get in. Now clubs want to cut the date off for entries? Yeah it easier but as often as not these clubs are asking for entries. If I can go I can go.... If I'm spending 1500 to go to a test this weekend does a 10 late fee make a difference to me? Hell no. But the guy with one dog, the very person we re here for, you just penalized him. We ll take dogs as long as we have spots. We ll add if we can without risking the quality of the event. We ve got a started liaison to talk to new handlers BEFORE and during the test . Help them get signed in, signed up, walk term thru what's going on. Putting on any event with 130 people and 200 dogs per day ain't going to be a cakewalk. But it can be fun. And when it's fun they stay for Saturday and cone back next time . Travis


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## goosebruce (Jan 10, 2003)

Oh, and btw, the test I'm heading to this weekend is my 3rd trip to Texas this season. Because if the family I have their from the grand. Right now I'm almost a 1/3 of the entries in finished. It's my family cause of the grand. Been to 14 states and a Canadian province , and my dogs have been to a couple more... I started traveling because of the grand . I kept traveling because it's a way to see my friends more than once or twice a year. It's full circle .

Qualifying for the grand every year doesn't sound like too good an ideal for my friends in interior Alaska gun dog association. Since you got a finished dog you also a finished judge you really couldn't qualify every year, there wouldn't ve enough tests if they weren't also judging. Lots of clubs out west have 500 miles between tests. Not the same as me for sure. As we grow out west especially CA I want everyone of those people to know they can get a ch and run the grand. A few will, and when they do, they stay .
If started hooks the person on hrc as a general rule, the grand keeps them. Travis


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> See that is the "ours ain't broken so why change anything" attitude I am talking


Once again I am not opposed to any changes but come up with something that works and have a plan to execute it and I'll support it. Your "I know everything and everything I say is good for everybody attitude but I haven't done anything to help my local clubs survive but whine" is just the anchor your club need.


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## Matt Duncan (Feb 21, 2011)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Like many HRC tests in the area this spring, entries are way down, and unfortunately Backwater RC is no exception. Our test is scheduled for June 16,17 and we still have quite a few openings in each of the test levels. We have super nice grounds and great judges, along with a raffle that includes THREE E-collars, THREE Winger Gift certificates. There will also be a bumper throwing contest with the winner taking cash!
> 
> Going to be a pretty awesome weekend folks, don't miss it! Entries close June 8th on www.huntsecretary.com


Abby, 

I have nothing to bicker about but I'll be entering two dogs this week some time. 1 started and 1 finished..


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

wsumner said:


> Your "I know everything and everything I say is good for everybody attitude but I haven't done anything to help my local clubs survive but whine" is just the anchor your club need.


Were that true you would have something, but as that is just talking out of your ass you will have to try again


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Were that true you would have something, but as that is just talking out of your ass you will have to try again


I've got a couple of seconds. Why don't you impress me with your resume Mr V.P.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

wsumner said:


> I've got a couple of seconds. Why don't you impress me with your resume Mr V.P.


What exactly is your problem? Again part of the problem. Why do you want me to impress you? Little dick syndrome?


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

wsumner said:


> I've got a couple of seconds. Why don't you impress me with your resume Mr V.P.


Come on guys, are you going to give me my first locked thread?  Love the part of discussion that goes somewhere, but if you are going to call each other names, there is a PM service available.



> Abby,
> 
> I have nothing to bicker about but I'll be entering two dogs this week some time. 1 started and 1 finished..


 Thanks!


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Come on guys, are you going to give me my first locked thread?  Love the part of discussion that goes somewhere, but if you are going to call each other names, there is a PM service available.
> 
> Thanks!


My apologies. I am done with him.

Wayne


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

wsumner said:


> My apologies. I am done with him.
> 
> Wayne


Gee thanks, I couldn't take any more. your done but still feel the need to PM me because you are such an important person with all the answers. Please continue your stalking


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

goosebruce said:


> Oh, and btw, the test I'm heading to this weekend is my 3rd trip to Texas this season. Because if the family I have their from the grand. Right now I'm almost a 1/3 of the entries in finished. It's my family cause of the grand. Been to 14 states and a Canadian province , and my dogs have been to a couple more... I started traveling because of the grand . I kept traveling because it's a way to see my friends more than once or twice a year. It's full circle .
> 
> Qualifying for the grand every year doesn't sound like too good an ideal for my friends in interior Alaska gun dog association. Since you got a finished dog you also a finished judge you really couldn't qualify every year, there wouldn't ve enough tests if they weren't also judging. Lots of clubs out west have 500 miles between tests. Not the same as me for sure. As we grow out west especially CA I want everyone of those people to know they can get a ch and run the grand. A few will, and when they do, they stay .
> If started hooks the person on hrc as a general rule, the grand keeps them. Travis


Thank you Travis. Both your post said everything that needed to be said far better than I could have ever said it.

And we think of you as family too. Remember Southern Flight is still part of Region 11!!!!!

Janet


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Spartazoo said:


> But as you say, their main reason for not trying it out is too busy with kids which often means they don't want to invest the time training their dog.


I was with you right up until the last bit of this particular sentence. Sometimes people don't have the time to invest in training their dogs to the level they wish to achieve. It's not a matter of not wanting, it's a matter of not having. As an example, last night I got home at 6:30 pm and then went on teleconferences with Asia until 9:00. Where was I supposed to fit the dog training in during this particular day? For the record, I get out of bed at 4:00 am to go to work.


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> yeah, it is dying in Florida when two of the three clubs that hold test cancel them. I guess in your mind that means it is thriving? Take off your blinders. I love HRC, but in our area and others that I read about on here there are problems with numbers. Keep your head in the sand and the next time you pull it out HRC will be gone. I don't want that, but there is something that is leading to decreased numbers and canceled test. Our club had tried all sorts of things to get decent numbers including bringing in "celebrity" judges, using live pheasants for upland, changing dates...
> The people who show up to run our test are all club members and old HRC guys. It cost us money every year and it is not because we do not know what we are doing, we have been an HRC club for over 25 years. We hold two AKC HT and one AKC field trial each year and all of those thrive, have high numbers, and make money.
> I wish I could tell you why HRC is dying in our state, and in my opinion others, but after much thought I can't.


Sorry Corey, I couldn't reply sooner. Did take my blinders off to run with almost four hundred other dogs at an HRC event in Wisconsin. We don't have "sand" here in Illinois although I have been accused of having my head somewhere else at times. You said the "HRC slowly dying" in your original post. Then you change it to just Florida in your reply me. "Ok", it's dying in Florida.


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## Brian Skibicki (Feb 23, 2008)

Having known Corey for a while now I can tell you that he and others in his Club have done all and more that he has described to encourage participation in the HRC event that they hold, and they also support other clubs in the Region as well by traveling and entering numerous dogs. What concerns me about this discussion is that when changes are suggested to the rules to help struggling areas / clubs that all that is tossed back is that it is cyclical, or timing, or whatever other reason changes don't need to happen since it just is not how we always do things. As a nationwide organization what we need to understand is that some rules, practices, "ways of doing things" need to be addressed to allow others the opportunity to operate in their market that might seem burdensome in our own. I would rather be inconvenienced as a judge having to wait for a pro to bring his 10+ dogs to the line knowing that it might allow another club the ability to merely survive by changing that rule. To be flexible towards changes that don't really harm anything and understanding of the challenges that one region might have over another is not in my opinion weakness but the quality that leaders need to exhibit.


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## Spartazoo (Sep 28, 2011)

Mike Boufford said:


> I was with you right up until the last bit of this particular sentence. Sometimes people don't have the time to invest in training their dogs to the level they wish to achieve. It's not a matter of not wanting, it's a matter of not having. As an example, last night I got home at 6:30 pm and then went on teleconferences with Asia until 9:00. Where was I supposed to fit the dog training in during this particular day? For the record, I get out of bed at 4:00 am to go to work.


I don't disagree with that. I have 3-4 hunting friends with labs, based on our discussions I would say for them it is a lack of understanding and a combination of not having time and not wanting to invest the time. I certainly don't work with my dogs as much as I would like. That is why we have our younger lab with a trainer. I am not suggesting that what I said applied to everyone. That is why I used the word "often" and not "every time"


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## Marsh Mule (Oct 16, 2009)

Abby, I have 5 finished entries and a started at least coming your way after this week.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

"But as you say, their main reason for not trying it out is too busy with kids which often means they don't want to invest the time training their dog."

At first I thought this was a stupid comment. However, it is true. Many families just don't have the time to deal with the kids activities and training/campaigning the dogs. Just like money, you only have so much to invest (spend). Where do you want to spend it? My choice would be with the family. It's not a cop out or laziness, just the truth.

Question: 
For the struggling clubs that might be on the verge: Has it been considered to have a 1/2 price entry fee for first timers. Could the parent club then reimburse the local club the other half. Looks as if it would help the local club, parent organization as well as get some newcomers into the game.

When newcomers come to the first HT, does anyone follow up with them later to see how they liked it? Maybe your club is unknowingly doing something that makes them feel less than welcome.

Also, is the entry problem on the agenda for the national meeting?


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## Spartazoo (Sep 28, 2011)

Thomas D said:


> "But as you say, their main reason for not trying it out is too busy with kids which often means they don't want to invest the time training their dog."
> 
> At first I thought this was a stupid comment. However, it is true. Many families just don't have the time to deal with the kids activities and training/campaigning the dogs. Just like money, you only have so much to invest (spend). Where do you want to spend it? My choice would be with the family. It's not a cop out or laziness, just the truth.
> 
> ...



Perhaps I should have selected different phrasing. People are misinterpreting two words in my statement. "don't want" What I meant by that is training is not the top priority and as you point out families simply don't have time enough "spend". People often ask my wife and I how we "find the time" to do so many things. Our response is always, it is not a matter of finding the time, it is making the time. We have always had labs. Despite having three very active kids, we are going to make time to get involved with Hunt Tests. Something we have always wanted to try. We are now doing it and having a blast, and the kids think it is cool too.

I like your incentive idea. Any organization is only as healthy as its newest members.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

The old "double edged sword" anology. Buy your wife a dog and your life will never be the same!


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> Question:
> For the struggling clubs that might be on the verge: Has it been considered to have a 1/2 price entry fee for first timers. Could the parent club then reimburse the local club the other half. Looks as if it would help the local club, parent organization as well as get some newcomers into the game.
> 
> Also, is the entry problem on the agenda for the national meeting?



Tom,

Having been an HRC hunt secretary more times than I care to think about, I can tell you that there are per dog fees charged by HRC and UKC to the hosting club. These are mandatory charges which equate to several hundred (think upward of $500 if memory serves correctly per day) which the clubs pay. UKC and HRC have recording and reporting costs which have to be met. Further HRC does not exist solely on national membership dues, or club charter dues, and the Grand does not fund itself either. THe money has to come from somewhere, and I seriously doubt that the Executive Committee has access to Obama's stash. 

The next question is how do you differentiate between first timers and those who have run a ton of Started tests but can't seem to get that first pass?


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## goosebruce (Jan 10, 2003)

Modern grands not only funds itself, but presents a check to hrc every year, often 20 to 30k plus between the Grands held the fall and spring before. Their is a breakdown of profit sharing between the host club and hrc. Again my point, neither can exist without the other yet they should be separate entities. the grand has its own account that it keeps a balance in and the surplus goes to the hrc general fund. It's been years since the hrc general funds spent a penny on the grand. You may never run a grand but if you re in hrc you have and will benefit from it. 
Hrc is very forthcoming on all expenses and records of accounting are presented every national meeting and sent in the club minutes.


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Marsh Mule said:


> Abby, I have 5 finished entries and a started at least coming your way after this week.


Great thanks!


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Will the National Organization survive without the local clubs? If so, they have no incentive to keep the local clubs afloat. If they need the local clubs, sooner or later they will do something. I am sure the record keeping could be worked out if the national organization backs the program.

If this is getting to be a widespread problem, is the national organization even involved in trying to solve it?

Hey, I'm just throwing out ideas.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

There's a lot of differing variables that effect different clubs and the goal of staying alive as a club.

Some like ours (MIHRC) have yearly tractor maintenance expenses or infrequent gravel expenses, etc; clubs that lease land have these types of expenses, other clubs don't (and I haven't mentioned a common cost of keeping equipment running and up-to-date, etc).

There are some options to cut club expenses that need to be explored: pooling insurance by state or region to lower the cost to each club; lower the number of ducks bought for each test; work with judges to cover the bare minimum of expense (for reimbersement); have 3rd party take over lunch costs (e.g., Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, FFA, 4H); allow local clubs to have "underwriters" if they can find them, even if they may be competitors of national sponsors; clubs combining for a test every other year; etc. Many ideas to be explored.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Andy Symons said:


> Sorry Corey, I couldn't reply sooner. Did take my blinders off to run with almost four hundred other dogs at an HRC event in Wisconsin. We don't have "sand" here in Illinois although I have been accused of having my head somewhere else at times. You said the "HRC slowly dying" in your original post. Then you change it to just Florida in your reply me. "Ok", it's dying in Florida.


I believe your reply was that HRC is not dying simply because a few clubs canceled test. Lets stick to that, weather I changed anything to say Florida is really a moot point. The two clubs I speak of in Florida have been around over 25 years as HRC, so there is not a problem after all they are just two clubs in Florida and some of the original HRC clubs in the country. Lets forget the fact that many others have posted on this thread and others about low entries in HRC, yeah no problems it is just a few clubs... That is the take your head out of the sand comment. Far too many of the HRC folks take your attitude that there is no problem because "our" area has 400 dogs entered. This is a National, actually international organization and just because it is good in one area does not mean it is healthy overall. When people voice a concern that something is wrong it is far better to step back and see if that is actually the case rather that giving the old "move along, nothing to see here everything is fine". Try thinking on a little larger scale.
If you would rather bicker about were the clubs are or if I was speaking about Florida clubs or California clubs feel free, but it is not the heart of the matter and just goes to what I said above, you live in your onw little area and all is well.


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## Buck Mann (Apr 16, 2003)

I think dilution plays a big role in the Florida clubs problems. When I was active in CFHRC a large number of our entries came from Georgia. With the addition of NEFHRC, SOWEGA and North Georgia those handlers can run a hunt test almost every weekend without the longer drive to Central or South Florida. Add the poor economy to that and it is a recipe for disaster.

Buck


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Buck Mann said:


> I think dilution plays a big role in the Florida clubs problems. When I was active in CFHRC a large number of our entries came from Georgia. With the addition of NEFHRC, SOWEGA and North Georgia those handlers can run a hunt test almost every weekend without the longer drive to Central or South Florida. Add the poor economy to that and it is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Buck


Very good point Buck and I agree. At the same time HRC has pushed me to start yet another club in S.W.Florida at the very same time that CFHRC and TCHRC are having historically low entries. It serves no purpose to have more clubs when the ones you have cannot get entries.
Keep in mind we use to have a club here, Calusa HRC


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Buck Mann said:


> I think dilution plays a big role in the Florida clubs problems. When I was active in CFHRC a large number of our entries came from Georgia. With the addition of NEFHRC, SOWEGA and North Georgia those handlers can run a hunt test almost every weekend without the longer drive to Central or South Florida. Add the poor economy to that and it is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Buck


Absolutely spot on. We are seeing the same thing in Michigan. Clubs are added and with more choices comes lower revenue per club. I expect to see clubs fail totally within the next couple of years.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Mike Boufford said:


> Absolutely spot on. We are seeing the same thing in Michigan. Clubs are added and with more choices comes lower revenue per club. I expect to see clubs fail totally within the next couple of years.


Wow I am told it is only a Florida thing......."nothing to see here, move along..."


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

The only thing I can add is that I think there is some cyclical nature to it. When I was running Seasoned it was kind of hard to find a slot and then when I started running Finished it was a nightmare to find an open slot to run.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Socks said:


> The only thing I can add is that I think there is some cyclical nature to it. When I was running Seasoned it was kind of hard to find a slot and then when I started running Finished it was a nightmare to find an open slot to run.


Perhaps, but in years past and I'm talking maybe 3 years ago at that, you had to have your Finished premium into the secretary months in advance not weeks in advance. The increase in club numbers is spreading the wealth at Finished which decreases revenue for all of the member clubs. I am a bit perplexed about the relative number of Started and Seasoned entries though. There was a time when we would get a full load at Started and our Dynamic Duo judges would bring on as many walk ins as we could handle. Last Sunday's Started test was complete and in the books by 11:00 am as best as I can recall.


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## O.clarki (Feb 7, 2012)

OK I'm a new guy in this who trains with whoever has something going on and has chosen AKC over HRC for a test when given an option - FLYERS - LIVE FLYERS... my dogs love them the HRC folks I have talked to said they are using dead ducks and not flyers at tests. BIG difference here for me as a guy who wants the most bang for his buck. I will choose a venue that will give my dog at least one flyer every time. That ROCKS!!! Funny thing is the same HRC folks that I hang out with use live flyers in training and we have a blast - so why not use them at the tests????


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

O.clarki said:


> OK I'm a new guy in this who trains with whoever has something going on and has chosen AKC over HRC for a test when given an option - FLYERS - LIVE FLYERS... my dogs love them the HRC folks I have talked to said they are using dead ducks and not flyers at tests. BIG difference here for me as a guy who wants the most bang for his buck. I will choose a venue that will give my dog at least one flyer every time. That ROCKS!!! Funny thing is the same HRC folks that I hang out with use live flyers in training and we have a blast - so why not use them at the tests????


We use flyers in our HRC, but we are one of the few. Maybe that is why our numbers are down


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## O.clarki (Feb 7, 2012)

badbullgator said:


> We use flyers in our HRC, but we are one of the few. Maybe that is why our numbers are down


 Ya that is a major difference and one I don't see the logic in - the more flyers at a test the better..even the missed - no bird flyers add fun and challenge to the dogs trying to honoer and all that - THROW THEM LIVE BIRDS!!!


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Steve Pittiglio said:


> Abbey:
> 
> What's the handler fee if I sign up LG for a day?


Hey Steve, attempted to send you a PM but it seems you have selected the option not to receive private messages


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Hopefully you'll have a crowd.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Wow did I read that AKC events have a higher standard of dog work and shoot flyers?

Im going to hell

/paul

Wearing camo in hell


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

mississippi flyway hrc had full flight of finished both days but less then 10 dogs in started and seasoned both days we will about break even but as the test ended sun and we all were wondering if all the work that goes in to it was worth it. on a good note i judged with a fine young man named russ harris he and his family is what hrc should be about. while he judged his younger daughter sarah ran finished she is a fine young lady and at only 12 she has bright future with hrc


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

badbullgator said:


> Wow I am told it is only a Florida thing......."nothing to see here, move along..."



We wound up having quite a few walk ins for Started and Seasoned and even a couple in Finished. Preliminary, and very rudimentary accounting tells me that we might make a couple hundred bucks off of the test so we will show a net loss for the year after paying for miscellaneous expenses such as insurance, charter fees, and state non-profit incorporation fees.

One of these days, someone really needs to sit down with me and explain why HRC charges 3 times more for a test than UKC does. It seems that UKC does all of the paperwork for HRC so why the disparity?


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## ebenezer (Aug 19, 2009)

Our hunt chair always does a cost analysis before and after each hunt. He looks back over several years to compare. This year it was decided that we would go with one flight of finished each day as over the last couple of years the flights have not been full. If numbers hold it will mean the loss of about 5 dogs. We really appreciate the cooperation of the judges that have agreed to take 25 dogs in their flight. By dropping the flights we will save on birds, birdboys,judges expenses etc. Our raffle always helps to keep us in the black.
We also have a local service club that does our lunches and the dinner on Saturday night. Friday there is still the traditional pot luch hospitality night. I maybe wrong but I believe clubs experiencing financial difficulties can apply to the mother club for some support. It seems one of the clubs up here has done so in the past.
On a side note had the pleasure of running under Tracey Stubbs (not sure which Florida club) this past weekend. The weather here in Canada was terrible and my dog broke on the final test, water honour, but I would run under this gentleman any time.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Mike Boufford said:


> We wound up having quite a few walk ins for Started and Seasoned and even a couple in Finished. Preliminary, and very rudimentary accounting tells me that we might make a couple hundred bucks off of the test so we will show a net loss for the year after paying for miscellaneous expenses such as insurance, charter fees, and state non-profit incorporation fees.
> 
> One of these days, someone really needs to sit down with me and explain why HRC charges 3 times more for a test than UKC does. It seems that UKC does all of the paperwork for HRC so why the disparity?


If you're at Backwater, the Michigan-based clubs and any of their members ought to talk about this and other matters of club survival. ;-)


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

PhilBernardi said:


> If you're at Backwater, the Michigan-based clubs and any of their members ought to talk about this and other matters of club survival. ;-)


Unfortunately, I will be in China and then headed to Korea that weekend. Trust me, I would rather swelter in the Indiana heat than be in Shanghai eating really bad food, and then going to Korea and eating food that's still moving. 

I would be open to having a meeting with all of the Michigan based club board members to discuss some of these things which are not geared toward the survival of the local clubs.


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## Steve Pittiglio (Aug 15, 2011)

OOOps sorry Abbey, looks like you are full, maybe Ohio


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Steve Pittiglio said:


> OOOps sorry Abbey, looks like you are full, maybe Ohio


Sure, Steve - would certainly be glad to consider that! I would have had to decline this time anyways, so maybe we should just shoot for Ohio and see how that goes.


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