# Bummed, Don't say told ya so



## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

OK,
Have my 8 month old pup, up at the same place I had my 4 yr old forced at, with not so good results.
I thought it was cause Chief was an older dog, and that was the reason.

Paige (yellow female, 8 mos old now), has been up at same trainer now for 6 weeks or so. 

Not doing well, he started by telling me he had to re-diesgn his table, as she found a way off of it?
Then a week or so later, I call, and am told she is the most obnixious dog he has ever dealt with.

She will fetch from his hand, but walking down the table...has issues with fetch.

Spoke with him this evening after a 2 week hiatus, and he is thinking of giving up on her. 
I am off tomorrow, so will make the drive tomorrow, and will more than likely be taking her home.
He says she is rubbing the pads of her feet raw in the kennel, causing them to bleed.

Yeah....I should have listened to some of you on all this. Really bummed.
Will more than likely offer him some money for his time, and then get her home, and calmed down some. 

I will be looking for a trainer to force train her, so...I can re-enforce the basics at home. If even that is possible now.

Learned my lesson, I think...

Chris


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## skywatcher (Nov 15, 2009)

Hate to say it as i will get slammed on here for it,But you got 1 dog that it seems is 4 years old and not trained to well and now you got a pup that will not or cant be trained by a pro,if that is your goal i think they would need to send them to a farm or to somebody who wants one as just a house dog, then look for a quality pup or look for a quality perhaps started dog.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

skywatcher said:


> Hate to say it as i will get slammed on here for it,But you got 1 dog that it seems is 4 years old and not trained to well and now you got a pup that will not or cant be trained by a pro,if that is your goal i think they would need to send them to a farm or to somebody who wants one as just a house dog, then look for a quality pup or look for a quality perhaps started dog.


Who says it's not the trainer? 8 mos is awfully young to be giving up on. Mine are barely (if so) mature enough to start on FF w/ at that age.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I tell ya what. If you dont want to train your own, don't have the time or the money. If that is a good dog send it to me. I just love training the babies. Why do you continue to send to some one with zero success?????


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

Don't listen to "Skywatcher",find a good trainer,or learn to do it yourself,really good thread going here right now about force-fetch,read thru it,and maybe get a copy of "Smartworks".


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## Quizz79 (Sep 1, 2010)

skywatcher said:


> Hate to say it as i will get slammed on here for it,But you got 1 dog that it seems is 4 years old and not trained to well and now you got a pup that will not or cant be trained by a pro,if that is your goal i think they would need to send them to a farm or to somebody who wants one as just a house dog, then look for a quality pup or look for a quality perhaps started dog.


Skywatcher....I question your skills or experience training retrievers?? Anybody that gives up on a dog at 8mths, just isn't very bright or just ignorant to the subject of training dogs.


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## Quizz79 (Sep 1, 2010)

Navybowhunter said:


> OK,
> Have my 8 month old pup, up at the same place I had my 4 yr old forced at, with not so good results.
> I thought it was cause Chief was an older dog, and that was the reason.
> 
> ...


Navybowhunter,

Don't give up on either dog, the older dog and the younger dog can be coached up, just find somebody that knows what there doing to help you train or send them to a trainer that has experience with both young and older dogs!


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Sounds like you found a "trainer" like the first one I used many moons ago. I did not know what to look for in a trainer and got ripped off and almost ruined a nice pup of mine. Took me a year to fix all the stuff the "trainer" did to my dog. I found that just because someone says he or she are PROS don't mean that is true. Good luck with your dogs. One of the things I see as a judge is dogs that come to the line with waggin tails and looking at their handlers like they are the best thing since peanut butter LOL .the dogs go out and perform really well like they enjoy themselves and want to do it. 
Then you see some come to the line with their tails tucked up tight to their belly and almost crawling and looking at their handlers like they are the Devil themselves. sometimes they can do the work but out of fear not because they want to. 
I would suggest before you send your dogs off again to go to some HT's and watch various pros and how their dogs look. When you see what you want out of your dog talk to the pro. Most of them are GOOD GUYS & GALS.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

It seems like everybody and their brother wants to hang out a shingle and be a gundog/hunt test trainer these days just because they like doing it. Most of those folks have limited success actually training dogs and limited time learning from experienced successful trainers. That may not be the case here. Do the dogs have any kind of breeding behind them? You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.


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## Quizz79 (Sep 1, 2010)

Charles C. said:


> It seems like everybody and their brother wants to hang out a shingle and be a gundog/hunt test trainer these days just because they like doing it. Most of those folks have limited success actually training dogs and limited time learning from experienced successful trainers. That may not be the case here. Do the dogs have any kind of breeding behind them? You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.


Breeding isn't everything...I have some great dogs with what most people would consider a weak family tree....And even with the best breeding out there, your still not guaranteed a great dog!!!


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## Chris Krause (Jun 29, 2011)

Navybowhunter,
I lurk most of the time on this site but did follow your original posts concerning Chief and the difficulties you were having. Considering the "trainer" is telling you the exact same thing about your new pup as he did with Chief it raises serious concern. I would pull the pup immediately considering you have had him there with no advances in training. I'd take the pup home build his confidence up with a few days full of fun bumpers and start looking for a reputable trainer in your area. Do some research online or if you do find a trainer I'd look to see if anybody has any reviews online about them. Or ask for referrals. Something isn't clicking with the stories you keep running into with this trainer and I'd be seriously worried (if not pissed) if it were my pup.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Navy,

Go get your pup, bring him home, have fun with him for a bit while you find a good trainer.

Keep your chin up and hang in there.


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## skywatcher (Nov 15, 2009)

yeah dont listen to me just keep feeding it,


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

get your pup, have some fun for a few weeks - go to the Master National ,which is in your back yard ,and OBSERVE. See some very talented dogs ,some amateur trained and handled ,some pro trained and amateur handled ,and some trained and handled by a pro ....
If you can't find someone at the Nationals ,I don't know what else to tell you other than find a program like Graham or Lardy and follow it to the T . Good luck.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Navybowhunter said:


> ......Paige (yellow female, 8 mos old now), has been up at same trainer now for 6 weeks or so. Not doing well, he started by telling me he had to re-diesgn his table, as she found a way off of it?
> Then a week or so later, I call, and am told she is the most obnixious dog he has ever dealt with..........
> 
> Chris


Smart dog!
it may be your dog is smarter than your trainer.;-)
You may want to get rid of one of them and keep the other.
You decide what one.
.


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## hollypoint (Feb 25, 2011)

Chris, I liked your original plan. Go hunting with Chief, take pup along, and get them both to relax and have fun for a while, then regroup next spring. Plenty of time to make them both hunting dogs, its not a race.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

You have gotten some good advice here... go get your puppy and bring her home. Love up on her, let her feet heal, and relax about the whole thing. Get her happy. Get YOU happy too, LOL. Then add some fun bumpers and include day-to-day obedience. Of course it's not all fun and games, but if a dog can't enjoy time with her owner, things are pretty bad and why have a dog at all? Get back to the fun.

Love the idea to attend the Master Nationals: if you can swing it, go! I know I would LOVE to be able to attend to watch and learn. Think about how the dogs look and work, and try to figure out how you want your own dogs to work. Examine how they relate to their handlers.

Not knocking the pros, but you can train your own dog and get the job done if you do your homework. I don't even hunt, and have never trained a retriever before, but my 2 year old male is a SH (JH in 5 tries and SH in 4 tries.) I read a lot, had help from a neighbor and another friend who does hunt tests, but no pro. FF isn't as "life and death" as it sometimes seems.

There are lots of people here who have trained their own dogs, you can do it if you want to. Can you spare a half hour a day? You're set. Just keep your main goal in mind: you and your dog are partners, you work together as a team. Teach her what you want her to do and then enjoy the pleasure of watching her work with you.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Without seeing your dogs it is impossible to comment on their talent or lack of talent. What I can deduce by reading your posts is that you love your dogs and want them to be successful. There are still tons of options.

What you seem to be telling us is the current program with your current pro is not working for your dogs. A change is needed. Certainly, washing your dogs and starting over is an option. A blank page is easier for writing. Personally, I cannot wash out my dogs. Judging by your agonizing over the right course for your dogs, I doubt it is an option for you. Training yourself is another option. If that is attractive you need someone to mentor your efforts. RTF is a great resource for finding an experienced training partner. Another pro is an option. At this point dilligent research and an honest evaluation from the pro you will use would be a prerequisite to paying any more training fees. Finally, enjoying your dogs as loving pets is an option. Most dogs are happy simply spending time with their owners.

Hoping for the best for you and your dogs
Mark Land


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Post #2 in this thread:



skywatcher said:


> Hate to say it as i will get slammed on here for it,But you got 1 dog that it seems is 4 years old and not trained to well and now you got a pup that will not or cant be trained by a pro,if that is your goal i think they would need to send them to a farm or to somebody who wants one as just a house dog, then look for a quality pup or look for a quality perhaps started dog.


Post #13 in this thread:



skywatcher said:


> yeah dont listen to me just keep feeding it,


sw, it appears maybe you wanted to get slammed, or somehow trigger some debate to gain attention to your initial comments.

I'm pleased that thus far nobody's paid much attention to your initial comment. The initiator of this thread has not given enough information for folks to suggest what you offered. 

I think it is appropriate for those who posted after you to not "listen" to your comment. 

Chris


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## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Lots of people hunt over great dogs that have never been FF or trained by a "pro". What do you want to do with your dog? Do You plan on running field trials and or hunt tests? If not then go get your dog and train it to hunt. Most labs will retrieve with little training that's why they're called retrievers it's the obedience that you have to train and most any dog can be obedience trained.


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## KEITH L (Nov 2, 2005)

so many times i read of what i call a backyard pro and there are many of them out there.
i cant say it enough do more homework or research on the people you send your pets to 
i believe there are more bad so called pro's than there are bad dogs. some dogs display more talent than others. some take different approaches for a trainer to communicate to but all in all most can do the job. either love and care for your dogs or send them to the best you can afford if you wish. no matter what they keep on loving us as there owners.


keith l.


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## CrossCreek (Sep 3, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> ....
> You may want to get rid of one of them and keep the other.
> You decide what one.
> .


Very well said!!!! 

I would get another opinion. She may be getting " anxious " to get out of pressure. She might be a dog that is "outside of his box of dogs" he use to training.

OR it could be her. She may just be wiggling to get out of pressure. She may not be ready to force fetch. She many..... 

Anyone can call themselves a trainer, but experience is where you learn how to train all types of personalities and type of dogs.

Sometimes is could be the personality of the dog and trainer don't match.

I mean there are sooo many reasons and I can keep on going but there's not 

I would just get another opinion.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

skywatcher said:


> yeah dont listen to me just keep feeding it,


And I'm just sure your first-hand knowledge of navybowhunter, his dogs, their pedigrees and traits is the reason your advice that he should get rid of them is so invaluable. I'm sure he's thanking you from the bottom of his heart for your advice.

Like many on here, if I'd taken the internet gods' advice and gotten rid of dogs, especially as 8 mos. pups, I would've ditched some mighty fine dogs as puppies.

And for navybowhunter: I have one dog that was slow to mature that went to a very good pro at 8 or 9 mos. for FF. Said pro did wash him from his program, but he was honest. He took the dog from force fetch and CC up to force to a pile and then called me and told me to come get him. He said he did not want to grind the dog down, the dog would not do well in his program and would most likely respond better to pressure and training from me than any pro. My point in relating this is this pro did not want to take money for training a dog he knew wouldn't do well in his program and was very upfront and honest about it. He never said "get rid of him" (you know, the way some internet experts do) and that dog to this day had the best early training of any of my dogs. Not all pros' programs are right for all dogs.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I am just curious, what were you being charged. 
$ per month, or fixed price when finished with OB, CC FF etc?
MP


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

One thing that makes me wonder is the comment about your dog pacing till she has bloody paws. You knw your dog is she normaly this nervous, obsessive, compulsive? Is she a worrier? Some dogs have actual medical conditions that can cause these problems. If she is normaly like this then perhaps a trip to the vet might be in order. Either way I think she should come home and you should find a new trainer for her. 
Know one Pro that had a dog that was so nervous That after a few days he moved the dog into the house with him. The first three weeks of training consisted of nothing but going for walks both on leash and off leash and sitting on a force bench being groomed and petted and just hanging out. Once the dog relaxed the training started and went very smoothly.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Navybowhunter, would also suggest seeing if you can locate a club within your area and get out to attend one of their training days. Members may be able to suggest another trainer in your area, or if you are going to start training yourself, have someone "local" that can help you with your training.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Navybowhunter said:


> OK,
> Have my 8 month old pup, up at the same place I had my 4 yr old forced at, with not so good results.
> I thought it was cause Chief was an older dog, and that was the reason.
> 
> ...


I guess I'll play the devils advocate, when the guy told ya this dog was the most obnoxious dog he'd ever seen, why didn't you go get the dog right then and there ? Sounds like the pro may have started having some social issues with the dog.
Good luck


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Navybowhunter said:


> OK,
> Have my 8 month old pup, up at the same place I had my 4 yr old forced at, with not so good results.
> I thought it was cause Chief was an older dog, and that was the reason.
> 
> ...


You have right to be bummed out! Do not give up on either dog. I also learned my lesson. My older dog got burned by a pro. With time and energy on your part and finding the right mentor, resource person or pro (if you want again) you can turn your dog around. My older one ended up with his HR title and does fabulous at hunting ducks. You have to be willing to committ the time however. Right now I would bring the pup home and just think it over and work with the pup. Neither dog is too old to wait a few weeks until you collect your thoughts. Lots of good advice here on this site. Good luck to you!!!!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

There is not enough information to form a definitive opinion about your dog or trainer.

I will give you some of my general observations:
1. The dog is very young to give up on.
2. Very few can't make it through force fetch. I have done hundreds and only had two, I think, that didn't make it. One was a pointer with which I have only a little experience. Another trainer was able to get ff done by working the dog three times a day. I didn't have sufficient time to do this.
3. Sometimes a change in the coach will get the dog to respond better.
4. Sometimes a change in technique will get the job done (changing from ear pinch to toe hitch or moving from the table to the ground on a bucket.)
5. Sometimes a break from ff of a week or more will make ff go better.
6. Some dogs just take a long time on ff. Six weeks is long but I have had some take longer.
7. Gary Zeller told me that FC AFC Land Ahoy (Pirate) was a little difficult to ff.

I have had some dogs whose pedigree was not very good and background was questionable. I once, jokingly, accused the kennel owner of going to the pound and bringing home everything that was black. LOL.

Hang in there, get your dog well and start over.


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## Ihatesteel (Aug 22, 2011)

This is my personal opion, from an Ametur trainer (so take it for what its worth), I'd go get the dog, bring it home love it, evaluate your goals for the pup, find a training program that you like, find a club or traing and get elbow deep in it. I can assure after what I learned this summer of training a now 14 mth old YM, and taking care of a litter with my dad, and starting 2 now 4 mth old BF, good pro's earn every penny you pay them, but some dogs just need to establish that loving bond with you. And when that happens they'll do anything to please you. And as I found out this weekend there is not much more rewarding than when you see your dog capitolize on stuff you've been working all summer on.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

I don't post much anymore and you've already gotten some very, very good advice, but...

...there are two red flags for me-one is the pro finding the dog "obnoxious". Sounds like he is blaming the dog for his failure to get inside the dog's head and have her understand what he wants. COULD be the dog, but it sounds as though he doesn't even like your dog and why would you want her with someone like that? Especially since you had a similar experience with him with your first dog. As has been said-anybody can print up a business card and put a logo on their truck, but watch them train and run their dogs. Otey hit it right on the head: NOTHING worse than watching a dog come to line slinking, hand shy and knowing that if he screws up there is going to be hell to pay. I don't understand anyone wanting a ribbon badly enough to subject a dog to someone with a heavy hand who can't treat the dog fairly.

The second red flag was her pacing her kennel until her pads bleed. Unless, as has been said, this is just who she is-she is clearly not enjoying life with this pro and likely not getting the mental and physical stimulation she needs to keep her calm and happy. And she most surely knows they guy finds her "obnoxious".

I was very, very fortunate to have the person who did the basics on my current dog (my first dog, Kate, was never ff or cc'd and was home schooled) do a wonderful job. He didn't get him until he was 17 months old, but he did his basics like he would a puppy. When I went down to pick him up and train w/ him it was very, very clear he'd treated my dog fairly and didn't make corrections unless my dog knew 100% what he should have done.

Ok-I'm rambling, but lastly-it's been asked what you want to do with the dog. If you aren't looking for the next FC AFC there is a LOT you can do on your own and with a group and a lot of these folks would know someone who could cc & ff your dog and not create ghosts in the process.

Bottom line is that if this were my dog I wouldn't let her spend one more second with this guy. She needs to come home and know she matters to somebody.

Good luck!

M


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## tripsteer1 (Feb 25, 2011)

You have the best avenue in finding a good trainer right here on the forum,use it. Take your pup away from the moron and follow the advice your are getting here. Good Luck


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Wrath said:


> Navybowhunter,
> I lurk most of the time on this site but did follow your original posts concerning Chief and the difficulties you were having. Considering the "trainer" is telling you the exact same thing about your new pup as he did with Chief it raises serious concern. I would pull the pup immediately considering you have had him there with no advances in training. I'd take the pup home build his confidence up with a few days full of fun bumpers and start looking for a reputable trainer in your area. Do some research online or if you do find a trainer I'd look to see if anybody has any reviews online about them. Or ask for referrals. Something isn't clicking with the stories you keep running into with this trainer and I'd be seriously worried (if not pissed) if it were my pup.





Cowtown said:


> Navy,
> 
> Go get your pup, bring him home, have fun with him for a bit while you find a good trainer.
> 
> Keep your chin up and hang in there.



X2 or however many!


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## Aries (Jan 9, 2010)

Navybowhunter I can't comment on your situation sense I'm only 3 weeks into FF Butler (my first FF and I've been taking it slow). But as I read though your first post I can't help from remembering a quote that I once read somewhere. 


> "A Poor Craftsman Blames his Tools"


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

"A Poor Craftsman Blames his Tools" 

And...

"Frustration begins where knowledge ends." 

Possibly, the trainer falls into this category.


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## jjfritz (May 28, 2010)

I have a friend that marshalled at a hunt test you were at with Chief and wants to get in touch with you.

Would you send me your email privately and I will make sure they get it?

Jane


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

For all of you who didn't read BowHunters pervious thread he is using a pointing dog trainer at a pheasant quail preserve in MD. Said trainer is located smack dab in the middle of retriever country. Many serious field trialers and hunt testers live all over the area. 
Nobody but nobody around there uses this place to train their retrievers, nobody. 
I know a guy who literally lives around the corner from this preserve and he drives 100 miles one-way a few times a week to a trainer in PA.


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Thank you all for reading and giving some wisdom.

Came home with Paige this afternoon. Trainer showed me his issues, and he has basically given up. She is young, and believe it or not has fetch and hold from trainers hand, but refuses to go the table to retrieve.

She was covered in feces, and we have her now at Petco for a deep clean. She appears also to have lost some weight, which is not normal either.

Very high strung, and I had a hard time getting her into Petco for the deep clean.

She appears real happy to see me, so thats a plus, but the three hr drive home was putrid....the stench was worse than wet dog in a swamp hunt.

I will take the time to read all the advice in here, I will PM where PM's were requested, and will not give up on her as of yet. Won't do that until I get the advice from a retriever trainer....through and through labrador retriever, as has been mentioned.

Like I said, just got in the house, long drive with Ocean City traffic, but happy to have her home.

Will reply again, after I sit and really read all the comments.

Thanks again!

Chris


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

NBH, I'm sorry about your dog, covered in feces???  

Poor thing, give her lots of kisses.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Just sent you a PM, Chris.


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## alynn (Apr 5, 2008)

I think "covered in feces" just about covers it. Your dog was neglected and not cared for in the most basic way. I would not trust anything this person said about what he did and what the dog could do. 

I will back up what John said. There are MANY very good REAL pro trainers in your area. Go to the Master National and see who has dogs running (you will be able to tell they are pros b/c they have 3 or more dogs they are handling). Talk to people. You may actually have to spend money -- almost certainly upfront. But, if you are not willing/able to do it yourself, it will be worth the money. At least your dog won't be abused.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Navybowhunter said:


> Thank you all for reading and giving some wisdom.
> 
> Came home with Paige this afternoon. Trainer showed me his issues, and he has basically given up. She is young, and believe it or not has fetch and hold from trainers hand, but refuses to go the table to retrieve.
> 
> ...


You've gotten lots of good advice, but not all. Beware the person who has a pseudonym with no location . 

1st - as long as the dog is trying don't give up, they will make some kind of dog & you will be a better trainer for having worked through the issues. I did not learn from only good dogs, I've had a few along the way that were less than. Usually those who were only intersted in pleasing themselves.

When I first started I bought a pup the breeder would not let me take home until it was four months old. So in the meantime my mentor has a dog that seemingly can't mark. Goes out in the 1st series of our state trial on a simple single. So he offers the dog to me for $300, unfortunately for me my $200 was already on the other dog so I passed. 

2 weeks later in training Bob says it's as if a light bulb went off - the dog comes to the line, looks around & apparently realizes this is why he came. 
2 weeks after that he wins his 1st derby - 9 trials total, 30 derby points with 5 wins, a 2nd, a 3rd & two greenies. If you know a little dog history you would recognize the dog as 1967 NFC Butte's Blue Moon. There is more to the story but the dog would not have been NFC with me as owner but I would have loved owning him. 

Another dog with 3 NFC's in the 1st 6 dogs was a complete bust, a terror @ 5 months & all downhill from there. 

& lastly - one of my training partners lost his pup to an aneurysm & only had this dog that a local pro of some note had told him to ashcan. So we got the dog out, evaluated him, worked him through his issues. The dog became an AFC, qualified for 2 national Am's & 3 or 4 Canadian Nationals. So that pro was wrong but is still in business. 

So if you play very long you will see a lot of examples .

Decide where you want to go, the journey as a doiturselfer is hard but meaningful. Get yourself a mentor that has some pelts on his wall in the game you want to play .

& lastly, if the guy cannot keep the kennel clean, how much training do you think your dog got??????????????????????????


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Hi Chief, Vicky PM'd you and she also lives in the area not far from you. 
Your best bet right now would be to follow her advice. I would imagine your dog will need some TLC to undo what she's just been through so keep that in mind. 
Good luck


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks all,

Just got off the phone with Vicky, and will be meeting with her next weekend.

In the meantime, I will be ordering a Lardy DVD, E-Collar basics.

Paige is still at Petco, and I am sure hating life.
She will be back home in an hour or so, but I will not quit with her. Basic Obedience, (which she has lost....), is what I will work on.
Commanding sit once, and not more than once....not nagging.

Time to take the advice I have heard in here. Done with the original trainer. 
Not done giving up hope.

By the way, Chief...has been doing great, my wife and I have been working with him past month or so, on retrieves with the big goose bumper. He may not be ready for another JH test, (I think he is, but I have been wrong before), but he is ready for goose season! He has not dropped that heavy goose bumper yet. 

I appreciate all advice, even the one "keep feeding them", rest assured I will. 

The subject said "don't say told ya so", what was I thinking. I knew you would all "tell me so", in a kind way of course.

Will keep ya posted.

R/
Chris


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Great talking with you, Chris. I look forward to meeting you and Page. Bring Chief along if you like.


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## bbmclain (May 23, 2011)

Good luck Chris!!! Sounds like you now have a great plan.......


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Navy,

The condition of your dog makes me sad for you. She needs you big time right now. Give her all the lovin you can and let her know that she is safe and that she means the world to you. Fatten that girl up, lots of love and treats. Lots of fun bumpers. Don't worry about training right now. I didn't take my guy to a pro till he was 13 months old. It's not a race and you still have months till you even get to the age of my dog when he went in. 

Do nothing but fun happy stuff with her. Tennis ball, stick, fun bumpers, go swimming & hiking, whatever you have time to do. She needs some therapy right now and you've got to bring the balance back to her life and for her to know she's safe and life is good.

Do NOT give up on this pup. It hasn't had the right start yet. Do a lot of research on your next pro. Go visit them, spend a day day training. Watch how they load the dogs in and out of the trucks. Tour the kennels and look at the conditions. Look at the condition of their gear and how they act. Anything funny lookin, shake their hand, thank them for their time and on to the next trainer.

Please keep us updated!
Jeff


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

Navybowhunter said:


> Thanks all,
> 
> Just got off the phone with Vicky, and will be meeting with her next weekend.


Awesome!!!!!


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris, Miss Vicky is a very fine LADY as well as a good trainer. Congrats on getting your dog home. It took me almost a month to get mine where she was comfortable again after the experience I put her through. Don't beat yourself up. Even us old timers made mistakes and learned from it.......GOOD LUCK !!!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

So sorry to hear how your pup was treated. She'll come back from it and be a great pup. It's amazing how they can rebound.


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Well, Paige was on her way home, and **** on my wife in the suburban! LOL...

I did one thing right today, had Sue pick her up at the Petco washing place. I am not one for washing labs, they stay pretty clean, with just a rinse....but this was BAD...

Paige has diraheea, and is very excited.

I got her in the back yard, and threw a fun bumper and she retrieved! YAY....
Chief is getting used to her being home again.

Paige lost a lot of weight at this trainer. No ribs showing, but her hind quarter area is very thin. So....getting her a wellness check tomorrow, for worms, and girardia also. The trainer said she was eating 6 cups of food a day, but still losing weight... Not sure....will find out tomorrow.

She is SO happy to be home, and the fact she did a retrieve, which she refused to do at the trainers...leaves me with hope.

Trust me, I will keep everyone posted.


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## skywatcher (Nov 15, 2009)

so how do you all know how this dog was treated?You know this trainer?Did you see what took place?Would like a update to the new training in 3 months just to see if dog was effected by training to be forced fetched by a pro


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I will say you can't blame the pro if your dog is a kennel runner.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

skywatcher said:


> so how do you all know how this dog was treated?You know this trainer?Did you see what took place?Would like a update to the new training in 3 months just to see if dog was effected by training to be forced fetched by a pro


It's irrelevant how the dog was treated. The dog was obviously not happy or in a positive frame of mind as the trainer wanted the owner to pick her up and the dog had rubbed its pads, lost a lot of weight and was covered in feces. If you believe the OP, then those are facts.

The dog is now back with owner, is visibly happy again and is already getting the care it obviously needs.

Good job Chris. I have a good feeling about this. I think your best days for you and pup are ahead of you!


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## Aries (Jan 9, 2010)

Labs R Us said:


> "Frustration begins where knowledge ends."


I learned that early on in my training drills.



> Well, Paige was on her way home, and **** on my wife in the suburban! LOL...


That happen to a friend of mine but it was a Cadillac SRX with their Puli & twin 8 year old girls and all his wife cared about was recording it all with her iphone.


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## Doug Moore (Nov 8, 2006)

skywatcher said:


> so how do you all know how this dog was treated?You know this trainer?Did you see what took place?Would like a update to the new training in 3 months just to see if dog was effected by training to be forced fetched by a pro


You really are clueless aren't you


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Howard N said:


> I will say you can't blame the pro if your dog is a kennel runner.


I agree. 
I don't know the trainer or any more than has been posted but there are usually 2 sides to the coin. Not taking any side here but.....
Once I had a beautiful very well bred male that for a lot of reasone came to me about 1 year old. He barked ALL THE TIME!!!!!
He was the nastiest dog I have ever had. He would pace constantly, would sit and lay in his own feces. He just did not care. He had a fair amount of talent. 
I did what I could with him but we just did not click. Train enough of them and you will get one of them. I eventually put a HR title on him and then sold him.
The family that bought him, put him directly in the house. He has never barked one time, not even at the door bell. In several years has never soiled or messed in the house. 
A completely different dog with the change of environment.
Like I said, not taking any sides, but circumstances and the personality of the dog may be some of the cause of all the issues.
MP


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

I do not blame the kennel, in fact....he does what he knows best. Not his fault. From what I am learning, he probably was one of the best in the 70's. 

It is in the past, and thats what counts...
Planning on the future here now...ordered the Lardy DVD....and I expect that the fact I ordered it...Paige will be fully forced by the day that DVD arrives! LOL

Nope...can't expect that. I do expect to learn some more, get her feeling better, and find a trainer willing to take the time, and give the attention needed to the training of my future goose blind partner.

I would do this myself, if I had the time. I do not. I will not kid myself on that...I love to bowhunt, and use the leave in my new job to the fullest during deer season and duck/goose season. 

I do have time to re-enforce good training habits. That I can do.

Who knows, I may learn I can do a lot more than I think.

I appreciate all of your comments....some more than most. For my limited experience at Junior Hunt Tests, you are some of the best people around. 

Thanks!
Wish I could post a pic of her now, laying quietly next to Chief....happy! LOL

Chris


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## Labs R Us (Jun 25, 2010)

Navybowhunter said:


> She is SO happy to be home, and the fact she did a retrieve, which she refused to do at the trainers...leaves me with hope.


I am so glad she is home and now in a healthier and happier environment. Please keep us posted. I think all of us here on RTF are rooting for you, Paige, and Chief.


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## Ryan M (Feb 6, 2010)

I still wouldnt give up on Chief either. I thought he was a very nice dog and is definitely capable of completing his JH! Good luck Chris.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

skywatcher said:


> so how do you all know how this dog was treated?You know this trainer?Did you see what took place?Would like a update to the new training in 3 months just to see if dog was effected by training to be forced fetched by a pro


Ill be the one to say it, you're such a jackass.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I concur with Howard and Mike and hethem skywatcher
Its defintely a possibility. I have trained dogs like Mike just described and worse.
Could very well be the dog. a home setting could be just what it needs to thrive
Pete


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks Ryan!


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

navy,

hope all goes well with the pup and chief.

i am going out to the kennel to bring a skinny, pacing, fecal finger painting clf inside the house. if this doesn't go well tonight, i am going to tell my wife howard, mike and pete thought it was a good idea.


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

roseberry said:


> navy,
> 
> hope all goes well with the pup and chief.
> 
> i am going out to the kennel to bring a skinny, pacing, fecal finger painting clf inside the house. if this doesn't go well tonight, i am going to tell my wife howard, mike and pete thought it was a good idea.


Wow...you care enough to do that! That is awesome!...


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

roseberry said:


> navy,
> 
> hope all goes well with the pup and chief.
> 
> i am going out to the kennel to bring a skinny, pacing, fecal finger painting clf inside the house. if this doesn't go well tonight, i am going to tell my wife howard, mike and pete thought it was a good idea.


John, I have never met your wife. Way to get me off to a good start.
MP


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Just read this thread. Glad you brought her home and hope she recovers quickly!


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> Sounds like you found a "trainer" like the first one I used many moons ago. I did not know what to look for in a trainer and got ripped off and almost ruined a nice pup of mine. Took me a year to fix all the stuff the "trainer" did to my dog. I found that just because someone says he or she are PROS don't mean that is true. Good luck with your dogs. One of the things I see as a judge is dogs that come to the line with waggin tails and looking at their handlers like they are the best thing since peanut butter LOL .the dogs go out and perform really well like they enjoy themselves and want to do it.
> Then you see some come to the line with their tails tucked up tight to their belly and almost crawling and looking at their handlers like they are the Devil themselves. sometimes they can do the work but out of fear not because they want to.
> I would suggest before you send your dogs off again to go to some HT's and watch various pros and how their dogs look. When you see what you want out of your dog talk to the pro. Most of them are GOOD GUYS & GALS.


Thanks, and very well said. I want mine to be happy to perform the task at hand! Not fearful of punishment.....Well stated!
Working on that, and it is my hope that Paige will be tail up and waggin properly, here next year for a JH test!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEi am going out to the kennel to bring a skinny, pacing, fecal finger painting clf inside the house. if this doesn't go well tonight, i am going to tell my wife howard, mike and pete thought it was a good idea.:wink:
__________________
][/QUOTE]

Send the carpet cleaning bill to Howard or Mike

Pete


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

OK, quick update...
Had Paige evaluated by Vicky this morning, and according to her she has great training potential. What a relief....
I also learned that I need someone behind me with a heeling stick, correcting my commands! LOL 
I will be working with Paige on basic obedience...

The planets aligned, and Paige has a date with "Weller Kennels" in North Carolina, Vicky highly recommended them, and I just so happen to be headed through that area on my way to a South Carolina Hog Hunt in 2 weeks. 
Received the "Lardy" e-collar conditioning video, and will practice that with Chief....while Paige is away. Have my wife going to Petco as we speak to pick up a "Chain Prong" collar for Paige's obedience. Want to get her obedience as good as I can get it before I get her down for training in North Carolina.
Thanks all....and were it not for this website, due to my lack of knowledge, I may have given up on Paige. This website a great resource for retriever training!
Will keep everyone posted on how her training goes in the coming weeks.
Chris


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## Ihatesteel (Aug 22, 2011)

Good deal man, I hope the pup turns into everything you'd hope for.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm glad for you and her.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

That guy has some fun ponds in his front yard.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Good meeting with you and Paige today, Chris. I am glad that I was able to evaluate Paige and give you some instruction on things to work with her. Remember.....black and white; no gray! 

Don't give up on your girl. I am sure you saw today that she has trainability and a desire to please, even with someone she had only met for a few minutes. Granted she has a lot to work on, but with the right training methods, you and she will enjoy hunting and running hunt tests for years to come.

I am sorry that I do not have an opening here at my kennel to work with you both, but I believe you will be happy with Paige going to John & Janet at Weller Kennels. 

Best of luck to both of you. I look forward to hearing about Paige's progress in her retriever training!


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris, Glad to hear that you took advantage of the help from the great MISS VICKY........ and got some good sound advice about your pup. I have heard nothing but good things about the Wellers and as you will find out the "dawg" community is a pretty tight group.


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## Ryan M (Feb 6, 2010)

Chris, I told ya this site was awesome.  Bet ya cant wait till you get Paige back from the trainer. Im happy for ya!


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## sethh (Mar 22, 2011)

Navybowhunter said:


> Thank you all for reading and giving some wisdom.
> 
> Came home with Paige this afternoon. Trainer showed me his issues, and he has basically given up. She is young, and believe it or not has fetch and hold from trainers hand, but refuses to go the table to retrieve.
> 
> ...


I have to say , if I had picked my pup up from a trainer and he was covered in #$!# I would have flipped that guy over a used his head as a scrub brush. Good for you on keeping your cool. I wish you the very best of luck. It sounds like your dog loves you and that is a big step in them wanting to please. I think you'll be fine with some patience. Again best wishes.


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## Chris Krause (Jun 29, 2011)

Man I'm glad to hear you are being taken care of finally. Keep us updated...


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## bobbyb (Jul 31, 2005)

Hey Chris..
Just remember one thing " there's a whole lot of difference between a dog trainer and a kennel washer !!!) .. Go get the dog put here with someone that knows what the're doing..

BobbyB
cajun


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

That John Weller is a great choice , to be sure . You are in good hands. Best of luck !!


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## Peter G Lippert (Mar 26, 2011)

It seems to me that the common denominator here is the trainer. Being a newbie at this training game the first trainer I went to easily persuaded me into thinking there way was the correct way and only way which ended up hurting my pup. I have since learned there are many ways to get to the same place. I would look around and visit many different trainers and DO NOT give up on your dogs.


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## Ed Hogan (Mar 14, 2007)

John and Janet are great. I have had a pup with them helping "un do" some things. Rest assured that they will take good care of her and if the potential is there, they will bring it out! They have been at this game a long time and have the reward to show it.

Good Luck


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

I'd wait until you are sure you are going to keep her before settling on a registered name.

Call name "Hey you" regards

Bubba


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## Stephen Whitley (Feb 3, 2007)

Breck said:


> That guy has some fun ponds in his front yard.


You ain't kiddin'!!!


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## Kent W (Jun 22, 2009)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> "Then you see some come to the line with their tails tucked up tight to their belly and almost crawling and looking at their handlers like they are the Devil themselves. sometimes they can do the work but out of fear not because they want to.
> I would suggest before you send your dogs off again to go to some HT's and watch various pros and how their dogs look. When you see what you want out of your dog talk to the pro. Most of them are GOOD GUYS & GALS.


Chris,


Sadly enough have seen that more than once as a judge as well. Take it from me (sent my now MHR to a "pro" at 7 mos old. The guy forced him OK but screwed with his head. The dog wouldnt trust me) Spend some time with your pup following the excellent programs mentioned here. Evan's "Smartworks" is my favorite. You will do just fine. Try to find a club in your area that holds hunt or field tests. That resource sure helped me early on.

Good luck.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

Navybowhunter said:


> OK, quick update...
> Had Paige evaluated by Vicky this morning, and according to her she has great training potential. What a relief....
> I also learned that I need someone behind me with a heeling stick, correcting my commands! LOL
> I will be working with Paige on basic obedience...
> ...


Chris,

I bought my first dog, Justice, from John and Janet almost 8 years ago. John has trained Justice from the beginning. My young dog, Trouble, has been with John from the beginning also. Between John, Janet and John's assistant Anthony you couldn't be in better hands. I will admit that I am biased because I consider all of them among my best friends!! With that being said I'm sure you will be more than satisfied with your dogs progress and the care Weller Kennels will take of your pup.


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks Jim...
I'll be headed down to New Bern, NC on Wednesday morning. Really looking forward to dropping Paige off at a reputable trainer/kennel.
Then it's further South to SC, for a hog hunt. I can't wait for Wednesday to get here!

Chris


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Well, quick update here..
Did not get a hog on our SC hunt, one in our party did...was HOT

But, on the way down we dropped Paige off at John Weller's place, and I will say...
The difference was NIGHT and DAY regarding where she was previously.
It is the equivalent of a 5 star resort and the Motel 6!

He has an awesome facility, and a very professional staff. No BS approach...
No calls as of yet regarding an update, he asked me to at least give him a week to work with her and evaluate her.

I am stoked....I truly believe, if anyone can get her there, Weller Kennels can...if not, well then I have a great house dog! LOL

Thank you all for the suggestions, without this website, I know I would have never even found his kennel!

More to follow in a week or so, after we get an update from them.

Thanks again all!


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## Ihatesteel (Aug 22, 2011)

Thats great to here, I hope your little gal does great.


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

I can't tell you how happy I am for you. There is nothing better than knowing your buddy is in good hands. 

Please keep us updated!


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

I am just getting one of my pups i sold back to train,,,,, he was with a trainer for 3 months and doesnt even have OB down,,,, I dont get it,,,, 



I am glad you have every thing in order now and your dog is in a good place, remember it is a journey have fun with your dogs!!!!!


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

Well, sorry all...It has been deer season here, and I have been remiss in my posts here. But, thought I'd share an update on Paige! She is doing well! Will be competing her this spring for her JH...this video says a TON! 
Maybe not the best dog out there, but comin from a trainer that washed her out....to wearin an e-collar, being obedience trained, and well....watch the video please, not perfect by no means, but I am Happy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REyIaY7E6jU&feature=share


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## Navybowhunter (Jun 27, 2011)

She still has a week or two left with Weller Kennels, and I know John, is giving it his all! We just cannot wait to get her back home, it has been soooo long it seems! We brought her home at 8 weeks last March, at 6 months I screwed up, and went with the bad decision, and she has been in boot camp since! LOL.....She will almost be a year old when I get her! The family misses her, even Chief! LOL
By the way, I have pics of Chief fetching everything, foxes, racoons, squirrels, and even a "grinner" (possum), I am told that if a dog fetches a fox, he has it? Not convinced...Looking to the next season, Hunt Test season this spring! LOL


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

awesome, thanks for update...I was wondering how it was going!


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