# Dog Aggressive Goldens.



## BenQuick (Jun 3, 2005)

Let me say there are dog aggressive dogs in all the breeds. But, I have noticed a much higher percentage of dog aggressive Goldens than in Labradors. Has this always been the case and a long standing trait with them? Or is this relative new development and not consideration in current breeding?


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## Bente (Dec 3, 2004)

... and have you stopped beating your wife? ...


..


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

Although both are a pretty gentle breed, if I were a criminal I would break into a home of a golden owner before I would a lab....and I'd never break into a home of a chessie owner! :lol:


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## dreamer2385 (Jan 21, 2007)

Just in my experiences i have seen increasing in dog aggression in both. I have a lab {show breeder} that goes to the eye clinics i do. Her dogs charge at the crates like they were going for you. I have also noticed more dog aggression in goldens , both show and field lines.. Well, and the BYB, forget it.. The local puppy mill producer has many breeds, i would not even call his dogs goldens.. thing is someone like this person gives full registration rights. i wonder,, how do others see this? do you see this as an increasing problem?? Maria


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I don't think it's new. I asked John, who's been doing this longer than I. His awareness that Goldens are rough, tough dogs dates to about 1976 or so.


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## bandcollector (Oct 9, 2003)

My golden may only way 53 pounds, but he is a lot more of a watch dog than the two lickerdors. He is my first golden. He isn't dog aggressive. I get the feeling he may have more of a set of kahonies than my labs do. He is a youngin and its just the feeling I get. Nothing yet to really prove it. He is just more protective of the house/yard than my others.


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## John (Feb 28, 2003)

Flowageboy said:


> Although both are a pretty gentle breed, if I were a criminal I would break into a home of a golden owner before I would a lab....and I'd never break into a home of a chessie owner! :lol:


 That is a vote for the Breed... Calling all Thugs... 


A Chessy Owner :shock:


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2007)

BenQuick said:


> Let me say there are dog aggressive dogs in all the breeds. But, I have noticed a much higher percentage of dog aggressive Goldens than in Labradors. Has this always been the case and a long standing trait with them? Or is this relative new development and not consideration in current breeding?


Oh, but of course! I mean, oh, no! I mean... (fabulous response, Bente.  ).

PULEEZE BQ, what kind of answer(s) did you expect to get from this?

Where are you witnessing these aggressive tendencies?
Are these Goldens (or are they out of Goldens) that are trained to higher levels of field work that require stability and soundness of mind as well as body?
Are they, by chance, from similar lines? (Amy, I'd be curious to see where John was in 1976.)
Are they from breeders who produce dogs with "go, go, go" with no regard to balance?
Are they from breeders who produce zero "go, go, go" and thus end up with a bunch of fear biters when they are encouraged to do so?

Just a little more information and less generalization might prove to be helpful.

Melanie


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Are they overtly aggressive, going out of their way to pick a fight? 
No, I don't think so. But the other hand many goldens will unwilling to "turn the other cheek" if another dog acts overtly or challenges them. 

Too often the owners of dogs don't pay attention to the subtle behaviors of their dogs, not realizing they have a situation on their hands until after the growling and snarling starts and the fur is flying. Golden owners are some of the worst because they hear over and over that the breed has such a wonderful temperament. They become complacent and don't pay attention to what is really going on until it's too late.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Swampcollie said:


> Are they overtly aggressive, going out of their way to pick a fight?
> No, I don't think so. But the other hand many goldens will unwilling to "turn the other cheek" if another dog acts overtly or challenges them


I don't consider that to be aggressive. Grumpy maybe, but not aggressive.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

jeff t. said:


> Swampcollie said:
> 
> 
> > Are they overtly aggressive, going out of their way to pick a fight?
> ...


Exactly!

Goldens can to some degree be victims of their own PR. People hear continuously that they have such a great temperament that people forget that they are dogs, and are very capable of standing their ground when provoked.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Swampcollie said:


> jeff t. said:
> 
> 
> > Swampcollie said:
> ...


I think people forget they are dogs first and Goldens second. I have one who has play dates w/ other males- from Goldens to Jack Russells & he is the submissive one. But-has he ever postured back to another male when on lead? Absolutely.

He's also not crate aggressive & will let toddlers crawl all over him, but I'd bet $$$ that if he felt someone was threatening me or tried to break into the house at 3:00 a.m. he'd give them something to think about. I don't find that contrary to the breed, but rather the hallmark of any intelligent dog who is loyal to his owner.

M


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> Where are you witnessing these aggressive tendencies?
> ...
> Are they, by chance, from similar lines? (Amy, I'd be curious to see where John was in 1976.)
> ...
> ...


In my experience, they come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Field. Bench. Pet. BYB. IMO generalization is appropriate. I find the Golden personality traits are remarkably consistent across dogs of different breeding. The males are notably worse than Labs or Chesapeakes for attacking other males, and need closer supervision. Also some trainers have been badly bitten by Goldens.

Where John was: here in North Carolina, training male Goldens for the first time, and running trials in which other Goldens were entered. Prior to that his Golden experience was limited to one bitch he trained. These dogs were not in general from North Carolina.

I love the breed. But I notice that they are more dog-aggressive than Labs and Chesapeakes. IME some *do* go out of their way to pick a fight.

Amy Dahl


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

afdahl said:


> Melanie Foster said:
> 
> 
> > Where are you witnessing these aggressive tendencies?
> ...


Interesting perspective, but I haven't seen anything that makes me agree with you. LOTS of Goldens in New England & at HTs, FTs or bench shows I've seen nothing that supports your observation.

M


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## SMS (May 26, 2005)

I have one of those "dog aggressive" Goldens. She is spayed & JUST a pet, we love her to death. She came to this house from an apartment atmosphere as an "only" dog at one year old, she is now 4 years old. She will attack, with no provocation, at just the sight of another dog. She won't let go of the neck & is serious. We are careful about when she is let out, so we have no problem with the other dogs. She loves people & kids, just not other dogs. I know she is not the typical Golden, I've had one in the past that was shown in obedience competition & no problems. Still love the breed !


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

afdahl said:


> I don't think it's new. I asked John, who's been doing this longer than I. His awareness that Goldens are rough, tough dogs dates to about 1976 or so.


That is consistent with his article published in the Oct/Nov 2005 issue of the Retriever Journal.

In the section on Goldens:


> “. . . but what they lack is the tractable personality common to Labs. They are tough, though. They don’t fold up easily, but they are more likely to rebel – sometimes carrying their resistance to the point of attacking their trainers. This is not to say goldens are vicous – they-re not – but they are more apt to come to their own defense when training pressure is applied.”


It is this kind of BS that gives the breed a bad name. Note the use of the capital “L” used with the word Lab and the lower case “g” used with the word golden. It would appear that the author had some serious bias about the breed. 

I have trained a dozen Goldens and have, in fact, been bitten, but I was most definitely out of line and deserved what I got. I would almost agree with the quoted comments if the phrase training pressure was changed to abuse. Some Goldens will defend themselves when pressure becomes abuse. I would submit that anyone who puts so much pressure on a Golden that the dog feels a need to protect itself, should seriously reconsider his/her training methods.

Most retrievers of all breeds have a limit as to the amount of pressure they can tolerate. When that limit is exceeded Labs tend to bolt, a Golden may retaliate. In either case it is the training that is at fault. I have no doubt that some heavy handed trainer was bitten back in the old days when training was very physical and dogs were beaten into submission.

I just do not see it with today's training methods and varible intensity e-collars, but abuse is abuse be it inflicted with a whip, chain, heeling stick or e-collar.

Getting back to the subject of the thread, I have been around Goldens for about 15 years now and am not seeing aggressive Goldens. Maybe I need to get out more.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2007)

Miriam,

Did you ever figure out what triggered the incident between Finn and that puppy a while back? I wouldn't normally ask but since you posted it here on a public forum I thought it was appropriate to bring up considering the subject of this thread.

Melanie


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Jim Pickering said:


> It is this kind of BS that gives the breed a bad name. Note the use of the capital “L” used with the word Lab and the lower case “g” used with the word golden. It would appear that the author had some serious bias about the breed.


Appearances can be deceiving. The capitalization decision was made by the editor based on breed names that are geographic references vs. those that are descriptive.

Amy Dahl


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2007)

afdahl said:


> Jim Pickering said:
> 
> 
> > It is this kind of BS that gives the breed a bad name. Note the use of the capital “L” used with the word Lab and the lower case “g” used with the word golden. It would appear that the author had some serious bias about the breed.
> ...


I don't have the article in front of me. Can you explain in more detail?


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

If I recall Charles Morgan on Retrievers correctly, he indicated that goldens are a whole lot less likely to start a fight, but a whole lot more likely to take a fight to the end if pushed. Its been a couple of years since I've read it, but I think that is a fairly accurate paraphrase. If so, that was experience from several decades ago.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

You know folks, I do not believe it is the dog. I believe it is the person. I have the breed that has the worst reputation of our retriever breeds, the Chesapeake. I have indeed seen mean Chesapeake's. I understand what breed tendencies are. But I have seen Chesapeake people raise nothing but cuddly, snuggly Chesapeake's that will run through frozen muck all morning and then share a pop-tart with a grin (That is a happy face, not a snarl non-Chessie folk). 
I have seen some of these same folk raise off breeds with the same results. A Chessie person I know also has an American Bull Terrier and it is the most loving yet useless dog I have ever interacted with. Other folk, no mater the breed or after multiple dogs, always have mean dogs. Some I am sure do it on purpose (AKA. Michael Vick) others do it unconsciously. They do not want a mean dog but it happens every time. Just like the folk you see at hunt tests who dog after dog as the years go by always bring a dog to line in junior on two legs. They do not want that but something about what they do brings it on. I do not believe it is the dog, it is the person. Some folk just raise mean dogs.
That said, in my few humble years in this game the only dog that for real got into it with one of mine was a Golden Retriever. In my fewer years chairing tests the only dog that had to be mentioned in the test report for fighting/aggressive behavior was a Golden Retriever. Maybe more Golden Retriever people unconsciously raise mean dogs? 
Might be a personality thing. 
Might be the bandana jokes.

Ken Bora


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## bjlokey (Jun 10, 2004)

*Goldens and aggression*



Swampcollie said:


> Goldens can to some degree be victims of their own PR. People hear continuously that they have such a great temperament that people forget that they are dogs, and are very capable of standing their ground when provoked.


Excellent comment! 

I think it is very hard to make such generalizations about any breed. While I have heard all kinds of statements about goldens and aggression, the only dog fight I have even seen on a pro's truck was between two male labs and all saw was the pro's using whatever implement available to break it up.

I have raised 12 goldens over the last 30 years, 4 males and 8 females. From my experience they have a wonderful temperment, both males and females. 
That being said, I have been bitten once by one of the males 
(my fault he did not think the discipline was justified and the lead was not tight) and have a female that can be dog aggressive if her space is violated. 
Most folks are very surprised that the female can be aggressive, but then I do not let the opportunity arise.

Some people just don't control there animals and situations arise.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Melanie, I hope I'm answering the question you want answered. The editorial policy of the Retriever Journal is that geographic names in the names of dog breeds are capitalized: Labrador retriever, Chesapeake Bay retriever, Boykin spaniel, English setter; while descriptive names such as flat-coated retriever, golden retriever, cocker spaniel, are not.

The article in question was submitted with "Golden" capitalized everywhere it appeared, but was published consistent with the policy of the magazine. I respectfully disagree with the editors; I think dog breed names are proper nouns in their own right, and can be capitalized.

Amy Dahl


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Ken Bora said:


> Just like the folk you see at hunt tests who dog after dog as the years go by always bring a dog to line in junior on two legs. They do not want that but something about what they do brings it on. I do not believe it is the dog, it is the person. Some folk just raise mean dogs.
> Ken Bora


I don't think that.I had a dog aggressive malamute.She was socialized and trained as much as any of our other dogs.We could never get that out of her.We could control the situations she was in but it was always there.None of our other dogs were that way.I now have lab like you describe that is so excitable he's tough to control at hunt tests.We've been working on this kind of stuff far more than my last lab.My last lab was so much calmer and easy to control.They are all different.I'm sure training mistakes help to make it worse and good training skills make it better but it's still in the dog to start with.Just my opinion based on my own dogs.I'm curious to hear what more experienced trainers have to say about this.Why would breeders put so much effort in trying not to breed known aggressive dogs or other personality traits that they don't want passed on if they were all the same anyway?Let's put it this way,if you give a total idiot a dog that has aggressive traits the dog will probably be aggessive.If you give a total idiot a nice friendly dog you will still probably end up with a nice friendly dog.(he will still be an idiot).There are always exceptions like Mike Vick doing it on purpose and total idiots screwing up thier dog but in general I think it's in the dog.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Miriam,
> 
> Did you ever figure out what triggered the incident between Finn and that puppy a while back? I wouldn't normally ask but since you posted it here on a public forum I thought it was appropriate to bring up considering the subject of this thread.
> 
> Melanie


No, that is a fair question & I knew before I posted to this thread someone might ask. It's not fun to revisit the topic, but...

..again-I had Finn (10 months old at the time) out thinking he was the only dog airing. I didn't see the puppy until Finn was too close for me to get him back to me. (Please-I don't need reminders now about always having the dog on lead, etc., etc.) I frankly (though I was rushing to get Finn) didn't anticipate a problem at all. Finn had prior to that played w/ dogs of every size & age w/ no issues at all. The owner of the puppy was startled by Finn's approaching & reached for his puppy while verbally trying to get Finn away. The puppy yipped & reacted & Finn reacted to that. I was as mortified as everyone else, but if Finn were truly a dog aggressive dog-I assure you he would be neutered & wouldn't ever be off lead. To the contrary-he socialiazes well with dogs of both genders, all sizes, ages, etc., is reliable on honors and when working he has working on his mind-not the other dog. We have run only one AKC Senior test and the honor dog broke and was in hot pursuit -Finn never gave the dog a second glance & when he honored there was a re-bird, etc. I trust him implicitly on honors & around other dogs in general. I've had him at a workshop where someone who had heard he was aggressive was surprised to see what a great temeperment he has. I also told Chylo (the pro Finn spent 5 months with) about the incident & asked him to let me know if he saw any signs of dog aggression or any temperment issues in Finn. Finn was aired in a group & never had an issue.

I don't mean to go on & on, but the reputation of a dog can be ruined by folks perpetuating rumor & innuendo. 

M


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## Jim Wetzler (Jul 16, 2007)

I'm the owner of one of those so called nasty goldens....
He's had 2 instances, one of which was initiated by a female lab whose puppy's were swaming over him.
The other was by a dimwit handler in a trial when he walked his 110 lb chessie (intact) about 3 feet from me.
He could have chosen a different route but fighured he had the toughest thug on the grounds (wrong)
My boy continuously gets his but ran off by 2 blf whom I train and hunt with.
He plays with my blm like a couple of little baby's.
He's very intense when he hunts and trains, has lots of drive and determination.
He gets a bad rap, but yet I've seen him cower to smaller, more agressive dogs.
He's now neutered so I'll be interested to see what happens.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I have been around and owned goldens since the mid 80's. That said it sure does not make me a expert on goldens. I would say that of the big 3 retriever breeds the golden would be the least likely to have that kind of problem. I also agree with Jim that with enough poor training you may be able to make one mean. I think with enough prodding and irratation I could piss off my blue haired, cookie baking grandma to kick someones a55. With a big IF you see a rise in Goldens being aggressive I will say its more likely a victim of its envirement.


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## LabLady (Jan 27, 2003)

Miriam,

I usually don't respond to threads like this, but I do want to ask you if you remember walking off the line in the first series on Friday with Finn. His gesture even caught the eye of the AKC rep that was there! It sure looked like aggression to me, too.

I didn't see it the rest of the trial, but it did leave an impression on me.

Vikki


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## Jeff B. (Feb 5, 2003)

My intact male Golden will posture with every dog he gets near. He doesn't fight but has been bit for his behavior.

I have seen examples of all three breeds being dog and people aggressive. No one more so then the other for the most part. 

Goldens under heavy training pressure (force or abuse) will often crawl up the trainers side. They do not bolt from what I have seen. If you keep pushing you are right there to be bit. If you are dumb enough to keep pushing past the dogs abilty to deal with it that's what happens. In my opinion, knowing pressure limits and how they effect the dog is the one big difference between training Goldens and Labs.

The sad thing I keep seeing is people with no dog knowledge buying Goldens because of their gentle reputation. They let the dog knock the kids down, sleep on the kids bed, wrestle and try to dominate people and other dogs and then wonder why they have to put the dog down when it's a year old for being mean.

Jeff


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I don't believe that it is a golden problem. I think it is a golden owner problem. In my experience there are certain personality types that go with being attracted to Golden's. I have 4 of them in training right now and each of their owners have similar traits. For one, the treat the dog like it is human, not a dog. Just this past Sunday I ran a 10 singles competition and I told the owner of 1 of the males to put him back up in the truck, yet she kept leaving him out after she ran to play in the gallery. He was getting higher and higher and when the series was over he attacked the last dog to run, a big black male that was on a leash heading to the parking lot. (Golden owners never seem to believe their dog could be aggressive thus no need for a leash.) So for the third time I had to drag this dog off another dog. It just came back from being out because it went after a dog on a chain and get injured pretty good. Another owner totally ignores all the signs that his dog is being dominant and that resulted in the dog go after anyone reaching into his crate. I don't know what personality trait these folks have in common, i think it would be interesting to have them all take the myer's briggs test to see if they do actually come out the same. Frankly if I took away their Golden's and gave them a black dog, I'm absolutely sure that the black dog would behave the same way.

/Paul


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## Gina (Mar 9, 2005)

We had a great Golden years ago (even saved my brother in law's life!) so I know a few bad dogs don't make or break a breed. 

That being said, My one black Lab was attacked by a Golden when he was 12 weeks old. The dog stared at him for a few moments and then picked him up BY THE FACE and hurled him around and wouldn't let go. That scared the daylights out of me and my puppy screamed for what seemed like an eternity. I wouldn't want to relive it. Luckily he suffered no damage, but to this day he is reticent about approaching strange dogs, which is ok by me. We right away got him playing with other friendly Goldens to help him not have a problem with other Goldens.

ANY DOG can be dog aggressive. My recently deceased Chocolate Lab was dog aggressive and he was neutered and retired because of it. *He* was attacked as a puppy by an Old English Sheepdog and throughout his life he hated: white dogs, dogs whose eyes were hidden by hair, blue eyed dogs, dogs that stared and certain yellow male Labs. He was a great dog otherwise. I miss him dearly. 

My point is if you have a dog that could be dog aggressive, keep it away from other dogs. If you can't pinpoint the reason why this dog is aggressive - don't perpetuate the problem.


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## jcasey (Mar 17, 2005)

> My point is if you have a dog that could be dog aggressive, keep it away from other dogs. If you can't pinpoint the reason why this dog is aggressive - don't perpetuate the problem.


Another point is to keep puppies away from strange adult dogs.


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## Gina (Mar 9, 2005)

jcasey said:


> > My point is if you have a dog that could be dog aggressive, keep it away from other dogs. If you can't pinpoint the reason why this dog is aggressive - don't perpetuate the problem.
> 
> 
> Another point is to keep puppies away from strange adult dogs.


Point taken and a valuable lesson learned. Of course when you attend a training event with people you know and whose dogs you THINK you know; you do tend to let your guard down. :?


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## jcasey (Mar 17, 2005)

Gina,

I hear you. The point was not directed at you, just a general point to follow up on your observations.

My current pup is so dog friendly, I have to constantly be on guard with whom she comes in contact.

Heck, my friendly adult dogs have been attacked at agility trials and field training while minding their own business. I always keep them on a tight leash while other oblivious handlers (a la what /paul mentioned) have their unfriendly dogs on a loosh leash while chatting with friends. Doh!


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

My first lab Daisy was 6 months old when my friends golden shook her to death. I knew this dog from the time she was a puppy, couldn't imaging her ever doing something like that. Let them out in the backyard for less than 15 minutes, opened the door to let them back in and no Daisy. To this day I will never know if it was an accident or what which is what I have chosen to think....

As for Chessies, one of the judges last weekend has a couple of them who hang out his window acting like Cujo! I have met nicer enraged pitbulls! And of course there are some at the tests who are way sweet.

So I reckon, it is just particular dogs.... One does something bad, and they all get a bad rap... :?


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## Jim Wetzler (Jul 16, 2007)

> In my experience there are certain personality types that go with being attracted to Golden's. I have 4 of them in training.
> Paul,
> How about a list of the types of personality's?
> I've had 3 other goldens, none have had any issues with dogs of any kind.
> ...


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2007)

Paul said:


> In my experience there are certain personality types that go with being attracted to Golden's. I have 4 of them in training.
> 
> 
> Jim said:
> ...


Oooh, I'm going to have to agree with Paul on this one. The first trait that comes to mind is the "Pollyanna" mindset. Goldens are *dogs* and more often than not, one sees Golden owners who are totally oblivious to their dogs' behaviors.

Melanie


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

afdahl said:


> Melanie, I hope I'm answering the question you want answered. The editorial policy of the Retriever Journal is that geographic names in the names of dog breeds are capitalized: Labrador retriever, Chesapeake Bay retriever, Boykin spaniel, English setter; while descriptive names such as flat-coated retriever, golden retriever, cocker spaniel, are not.
> 
> The article in question was submitted with "Golden" capitalized everywhere it appeared, but was published consistent with the policy of the magazine. I respectfully disagree with the editors; I think dog breed names are proper nouns in their own right, and can be capitalized.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Thanks for that explanation. On the bias point I will apologize to the author and fault only the editors. It is unfortunate that Retriever Journal editors do not consider the names of all retriever breeds to be proper nouns. However, I now feel even better about having canceled my subscription to the retriever journal.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Jim Pickering said:


> .....
> However, I now feel even better about having canceled my subscription to the* retriever journal*.


Lower case noted. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

JS


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Jim Wetzler said:


> > In my experience there are certain personality types that go with being attracted to Golden's. I have 4 of them in training.
> > Paul,
> > How about a list of the types of personality's?
> > I've had 3 other goldens, none have had any issues with dogs of any kind.
> ...


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Julie ,
I have to ask. Sorry to steal the thread alittle but what does ADCH stand for??
Sorry just curious.
IMHO (a Goldie owner since 1985)..........
Been bit once and IT was My fault.
Was around some trainers from the "Ol School of hard knocks training" and I wanted to bite them for what they did to their Goldens!! :twisted:  
Unfortunately IF their Goldens bit them ,they were put down as being aggressive. :roll: 
Earl Dillow........Come on Morgan where are you on this thread??
Your opinion????????
Sue


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## jcasey (Mar 17, 2005)

Sue,

ADCH stands for Agility Dog Champion. It is USDAA's (United States Dog Agility) championship title consisting of 30 Qs at the Masters level with a certain percentage of those Qs being placements. There are only 21 labs and 24 goldens with this title!

BTW - my dogs have never been bitten by goldens at trials/training. It was a lab, an aussie and a dobe.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

*Goldens re aggression*

I have eight intact male dogs. Both Labs and Goldens. They are lying on the family room floor as I write.

My FC/AFC Golden and FC/AFC Lab sleep beside the bed curled up together to the point where they look like a large calico cat. They are best buds.

I know they are dogs, not humans. I have been bitten by a German Shepherd----actually, not a true bite as he grabbed my hand and squeezed. Couldn't use the hand for quite some time. Bitten by a stray going for one of my dogs----that was a fairly serious bite. Was threatened by a Lab that I calmly told if he bit me he died. He took me seriously.

I don't think Goldens, on the whole, will necessarily attack another dog----there is always the sociopath or psychopath in every species--- I think if attacked and in fear of their lives they will probably strongly defend themselves. I have not seen it put to the test with my Goldens and I hope I never do.

Now, let's talk about some of the aggression in people.

Bring on the personality test!

Glenda


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## Gina (Mar 9, 2005)

I agree that people ( mainly pet owners) tend to take certain liberties with the 2 most popular retriever breeds. I get Goldens and a few Labs in my classes that are basket cases but they nearly always are either "backyard" or commercially bred from pet stores. Most of them really just need a job to do. 

I think that many feel the proper temperament for a Golden is supposed to be overly soft and that isn't the case either. A dog that melts under pressure is just as bad as one that lashes back. The more stylish dog with drive and desire that is prized in the field and competitive agility and obedience will often have a higher prey drive and that can cause problems when those drives aren't properly directed. Then again I have seen some dogs in the show ring ( both breeds) that have that "lights are on but no one is home" look! 

When I got my first Lab 14 years ago, someone (a Chessie person) told me that a Golden should be trained by your voice, a Lab needs a firm hand and a Chessie needs a 2 x 4! :wink:


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Since I seem to be getting caught up in an argument, I’d like to try to explain why I say what I do.

My main point is that the incidence of aggression towards other dogs is, in my experience, greater in Goldens than in Labs and Chesapeakes. Retrievers in general are not very dog-aggressive, so most individuals in all three breeds get along fine with others. Yes, there are aggressive individuals of all three breeds. In the dogs I have dealt with, the proportion has been highest in Goldens. Observations of aggressive Labradors and non-aggressive Goldens are perfectly consistent with this.

When on the road with a truck full of dogs, you get to know which dogs are compatible and which aren’t. Getting them all aired and loaded without wasting time is important, as they need several airings a day, and you also have to find time to eat, sleep, get on down the road, and run your dogs. So you want to group them into as few airing groups as possible. John and I consistently get all three breeds in training. Plenty of Chesapeake males need to be aired with bitches only, but in our experience the proportion is higher with Goldens.

To some degree it is a judgment call. We don’t wait for dogs to start fights, since we want to prevent fights. Usually we base our decision on “early warning signs” including stiff-legged staring, lunging, fence-fighting, and so on.

On biting in response to training pressure, John wrote that, not I, although I trust his judgment and observations. Neither of us has been bitten by a Golden. We are concerned with avoiding being bitten, and pay attention to the signs a dog is considering biting, as when a dog hunches its back and points its muzzle at an angle to the side. We do a lot of treading carefully with Goldens during all force procedures, because of the frequency of seeing these signs. Let’s be clear: plenty of Goldens do not show them (that I can see). Some do.

The most severe bites to trainers we know of were by Goldens. I’ve heard of two incidents, involving D.L. Walters and another trainer whose name I forget. Two is a small number statistically, but given the amount of damage I consider it prudent to keep in mind.

Why I speak up. I think my experience with three breeds is unique among participants in this discussion. A big motivation for me is concern over all of the people and dogs I see come to grief through misinformation and getting the wrong dog. This is a lot more noticeable with Chesapeakes, which some people get wanting a designer Lab, and others get thinking training it roughly will prove their macho (the 2 x 4 thing), and ruin the dog. But Goldens are a concern, too, because of a widespread tendency to underestimate their potential for aggression. In the retriever world in particular, there are a lot of people who react to aggression with physical force. In my opinion this is not smart, but people get away with it because of the extreme forbearance of a lot of dogs, especially many Labs. Bad, bad idea to take that forbearance for granted. In my opinion, it is an especially bad idea with a Golden, notwithstanding that there are plenty of them with excellent bite inhibition.

I am sorry if my expressing my opinion makes anyone angry. My experiences are what they are. I try to be responsible in drawing conclusions from them. I write about them in the hope that people will file them for future reference, and perhaps, down the road, apply due caution in handling, disciplining, or recommending Golden retrievers. I do not wish to disparage any breed. I have great love and respect for Goldens. I also think an awareness of their capacity for aggression may help protect their owners.

Amy Dahl


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## TNDUCKHUNTER (Jul 6, 2005)

*Aggresion problems*

I worked with a pro for a while who was in Wisconsin and we had a Lab that showed aggression towards a Golden and the Lab got a section of his ear taken out. The fight was definitely provoked by the Lab.

I opened my kennel in 1999 and have trained three Goldens to the MH level and did not see any aggression form these dogs.

www.cedargroveretrievers.com


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

While I am not a pro trainer I have stayed at the Holiday Inn. A couple things stand out in this thread. For me personally I have ZERO use for a dog that is aggresive to any humans or other dogs and other family pets for that matter. If any of my dogs attacked unprovoked unless proven to be a medical issue would be put down. I dont care if the dog is a NFC those traits have no business breeding and should not allowed to be in a situation as to have the chance for a second attack. 

I also think that someone that has a dog in training that can not be aired with other dogs or has aggression problems that does not remmove the dog from the program and recomend spay/neuter is doing a huge disservice to the owner of the dog the other client dogs and the retriever game. If the dog did not display these problems before than maybe the program on the affected dog was incorrect. 

If the owner has created these problems and sends it to the pro and expects them to fix it then shame on them. Most likely the behavior was the fault of the owner and may not be reversible. Really kind of sad to blame the dog for the fault of the owner. It will be the dog that is put down not the owner. 

Dogs will be around other dogs whether it be a trial, test, hunting or walking the dog around the house. 99% of all dogs can and do get along just fine. If you have a dog that displays that behavior and you dont do anything about it you are 100% at fault when something happens. Its not funny or amusing to hear the tall tales of training fido and having to use a trash can lid to keep from getting bit. If this hapens to me, my family or pets " I am sorry" is not going to cut it. I was going to discribe what would happen but on a public forum it would not be wise. 

BTW early on in the sport I stupidly let my pup run free during a training session and the puppy was bit by a Lab on stake out sitting next to owner. Puppies and strang dogs dont mix. The pup was fine (no stitches) and it was totally my fault not the old dog or the puppy but MY FAULT.


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

I train once a week at an obedience school(Kanosak Canine Training).The owner trains,shows and breeds Goldens and Rottweilers so there is a large number of owners there with these two breeds but alot of other breeds also train there.In a given class the majority is Goldens and Rotts.In nearly a year there I have yet to see an aggressive Golden.So far I have seen a couple of German Shepards,a Giant Shnauzer,a Siberian Husky,a Blue Heeler, and most recently a Dalmation act aggressive towards other dogs.I've never seen it get to an attack or fight.Most owners there are pretty good with thier dogs. I don't mind these dogs there because I figure they're better off at dog school than not(as long as the owner stays on top of it).The Golden owners do say things like "Guchi Guchi Goo" alot and speak in really high squeaky voices more than the other trainers though.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> (according to myers briggs I'm an ISTJ, which is code for I shouldn't be around old people or children.  I think it would be interesting to take a sample of golden owneres, chessie owners, black lab owners and put them through the test. Might be an intersting outcome.
> 
> /Paul


Hey, I am ISTJ too, does that mean we get along or hate each other?  And I have a golden.
But I totally agree that a LOT of golden owners (and I say this BEING a dyed-in-the-wool golden fanatic) are convinced their dogs are perfect and would never harm a fly. They ignore a LOT of behaviors that the dog is being a jerk and needs to be taken down a notch. It's actually a testament to the temperament of a lot of their dogs, that more fights don't break out! 
I compete in conformation, obedience and hunt tests and see this in all venues.
Sure there are some nasty goldens out there but I don't think it is any more than any other retriever breed. It's just when it happens with a golden, you remember it so well 'cause you're surprised such a good lookin' dog would do such a thing :wink: 

--Anney 
& Fisher too


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## TNDUCKHUNTER (Jul 6, 2005)

*Aggresion problems*

This is from one of my clients who has a Golden that is an awesome dog and I have been told that she is one in a million Golden females. I don't know if I would say this, but I have seen some awesome Goldens.

This is his quote -

"B.s. A dog is a dog. Like people, some are nicer than others!"

www.cedargroveretrievers.com


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Furball said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > (according to myers briggs I'm an ISTJ, which is code for I shouldn't be around old people or children.  I think it would be interesting to take a sample of golden owneres, chessie owners, black lab owners and put them through the test. Might be an intersting outcome.
> ...


Well, my fellow ISTJ, what it means is that while everyone else is out picking bandana's in pretty colors for their dog, we're our training....: :lol: 

/Paul


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

I have 4 intact goldens (3 bitches 1 male) who are usually in the house together and like Glenda, I don't have any trouble with them. I will not tolerate any misbehavior in or out of the house, when training, or running trials. If I even think I hear a noise from one of them a quick and loud, "Knock it off!!" from me has them flattened to the ground.

I have known 3 goldens who were quite nasty. One was a littermate to a well known male. They both ran trials. The difference between the dogs was incredible. We gave the one a wide berth when he was in a holding blind, or coming off the line--even when airing, we'd move as far away as possible. He would growl and posture at anyone near him, but his litter brother behaved himself and never paid attention to other dogs--a good citizen. One was owned by a young woman who let her dog get away with a lot of "stuff" from the get-go and the other was trained by a very good pro and run by a very competent handler. Tremendous difference between the two dogs. One went on to get some spiffy titles and the other was retired from competition at a young age because he had been written up twice. Another was a trial male that was really bad. Personally, I thought the dog had some screws loose. He finally had to be put down because of his unstable behavior. The third was a CH/OTCH who was just plain nasty any time of day, any day of the year. How he completed his titles I'll never know. He attacked my dog while he was sitting next to me (on a leash) He put a big hole in my dog's leg and it took a good sized man to yank him away because the owner just sat there! The owner went on to breed that dog a number of times. 

I've been bitten twice--once by a pekinese (hate those little varmints) and a chessie I was force fetching for a friend. She just reached over grabbed my hand and put a hole in it, thank you!

In his book, Charlie Morgan said, "I have often found that the Chesapeake can be very soft, the Golden (he capitalizes it) can sometimes be very tough, and the Lab can be either. It's all up to the individual dog." He also states that, "I think the generally accepted opinion that the average Golden is a little more sensitive, and that you can't be and don't need to be as tough with him in training, is correct." And as far as a Golden being a sissy is concerned--that is wrong. They are certainly able to defend themselves in a dog fight."
We took our first golden to a picnic trial when we lived in Wisconsin. A man came up to us and said, "That pup's from Luke Adew. You need to bring him along slow." He'd never seen us or the pup before. The man said he was Charlie Morgan and asked us if we'd like to come up to Random Lake and train with him. We went and he had very specific training methods for his various dogs--we were not to work our golden every day--every other day was plenty for him because Charlie felt he was a lot like his sire. He really trained each dog as an individual. He was an amazing man. And right about our dog--Natl. Derby list, High Point Golden in 3 trials and QAA'd in two!

I've known a nasty lab or two. I was taking a lab to a trial, running it for his owner, and then I was to give him back to the pro. The dog took one look at the pro and started to snarl, growl, and showed some very mean looking teeth! The pro was scared spitless of that dog and wouldn't even try to put him on his truck. Always wondered what that fellow had done to the dog because he was fine around everyone else. 

Like others have said, some people are nice and some aren't--dogs are the same way. Now a cat............. :shock: 

Suzanne B


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## BenQuick (Jun 3, 2005)

afdahl said:


> Since I seem to be getting caught up in an argument, I’d like to try to explain why I say what I do.
> 
> My main point is that the incidence of aggression towards other dogs is, in my experience, greater in Goldens than in Labs and Chesapeakes. Retrievers in general are not very dog-aggressive, so most individuals in all three breeds get along fine with others. Yes, there are aggressive individuals of all three breeds. In the dogs I have dealt with, the proportion has been highest in Goldens. Observations of aggressive Labradors and non-aggressive Goldens are perfectly consistent with this.
> 
> ...


Interesting and well written post Amy.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well, this thread reminds me of a day years ago training with Tellus. He had taken on a golden male that was about 2.5 years old, only had him for one day when we got together to train. All he was told was that the last trainer had washed him because he didn't handle pressure well. So we're hanging in the field running dogs, had his daughters throwing for us, nice triple with a double blind across some fingers of ponds. Sunshine, 70 degree's, had the music playing, all in a days work. So we get done with his dogs and my dogs and he says hey "lets get Chief out and see what he can do." 

So out bounds this medium sized golden male and oh man what a love hound. Playing around, in our lap, lickin your face, fun bumpers like a puppy. So he runs the triple with the dog and out he goes, just stomps the test, front foots all the marks, great speed, water launch the whole package. So my skinny friend says, "I don't know seems ok to me, lets run the blinds." 

He lines Chief up and the dog looks out and locks on the line nicely and Tellus says "back." Chief sits there. Tellus looks at me. I shrug my shoulders. 

Tellus says "BACK". Chief just sits there, no expression nothing. So Tellus says "well ok then" and he steps foward about 10 feet and commands "heel" with a low burn. All hell breaks loose....Chief jumps forward and grabs Tellus right on the chew can, full bore and won't let go. Snarling, growling, pulling.....Old man Tellus is now bouncing around in cirlcles trying to get that furball off his ass yelling "SIT, HEEL, DOWN, SIT" and he's trying to heel stick the dog but he can't get turned around enough to get to the dog. (Personally I think this dog has done that 2 step before and new the dance.) 

Well about this time I'm laughing so hard I fall over backwards in my chair and end up in the horse trailer, Pinch (Tellus's old jack russell) is going crazy and can't stay in the trailer any longer, he goes flying out there to join in the fun and distracts Chief who loses his grip on the Copenhagen and Tellus makes his escape where he can make Chief sit. 

Needless to say old Chief didn't handle pressure well. Dang that was a great day of training...

/Paul


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Needless to say old Chief didn't handle pressure well. Dang that was a great day of training...
> 
> /Paul


Then again, there are some of us who know who had their hands on Chief before Tellus did...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> For one, the treat the dog like it is human, not a dog. Just this past Sunday I ran a 10 singles competition and I told the owner of 1 of the males to put him back up in the truck, yet she kept leaving him out after she ran to play in the gallery. He was getting higher and higher and when the series was over he attacked the last dog to run, a big black male that was on a leash heading to the parking lot. (Golden owners never seem to believe their dog could be aggressive thus no need for a leash.)


Yes, I HAVE seen this with certain Golden owners. Their dog evenually gets in another dogs space who is not loose and then THAT dog gets smacked by the Golden owner.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> Yes, I HAVE seen this with certain Golden owners. Their dog evenually gets in another dogs space who is not loose and then THAT dog gets smacked by the Golden owner.


Hmmm Nancy..... I wonder if this is the same golden owner who told me my golden bitch was ugly. I held back but I almost told this golden owner to go look in the mirror and then talk to me about ugly. 

Needless to say, it seems Rizzo has recovered from the incident but you handled the incident better than I would have.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

I almost managed to stay out of this.
At this moment I have 4 goldens, one lab and a damn springer in the house. And two cats. Three male goldens live here all the time-ages 19 months to almost 11.

The others are here fairly often. The ONLY one who has been an ass is the springer-and he is here often. He belongs to my stepfather, and is his baby. He has to be reminded who is in charge here. He growled at my oldest dog-who turned around and looked at me, knowing the springer was dead meat. He did not growl at him again for a year :twisted: 
My oldest, now almost 11, has presence. You know he is there, but dogs tend not to pick a fight. As a young dog he would let himself out to go on the dog walk with the labs at a friends who was a trainer. No problems. He could be challenging to train. His son has some presence, but is young, so gets growled at when he is stupid by one of the female goldens who is here. He deserves it, and avoids her afterwards.

I think that things are not so cut and dry. You have owners who can't handle what they have, those dogs can be a nightmare.
You have goldens who will object if they don't understand, or if training in their mind has not been fair, and they will bite if they feel there is no way out. I don't like that, but hope I am good enough trainer to avoid it.These dogs are NOT bad dogs most of the time. Many well known trainers have said the best goldens are the ones that will bite, you just have to train them well.
Dogs are dogs. I have a dog I call Cujo in the car. He will bark if you walk too close. Not a nasty growling bark, but barking that says I see you. I can stop him, but after hearing the story of the dogs who get let out of cars/dog trucks by nasty people, I am choosing not to. My friends want to park next to me, as they want to know if someone come too close to the vehicles.This is a dog who adores, and is wonderful with,children,dogs, puppies and cats. Right now, we have an escaped convict who has killed few people in the area-I am rather glad of my dog who will raise hell.
BTW-this same dog had two labs come running up to him and surround him. The lab growled at my dog, and I yelled at EVERYONE, even though I did not hear my dog say anything, I told him as I bopped him on the nose he must have muttered something. He did not have a hair raised.
This dog is also very easy to train-no talking back.
Finally, you have the dogs that don't have a bite in them. EVER. When Audrey was 18 months old she bit my 3 year old on the nose (two at the time)-not cujo-and he came back for more. Granted, she only had one tooth and was quiet, so I was laughing. NONE of my dogs would have done anything-she can stuff her fist in their mouths, and they are better behaved around her at 2 1/2 then me.When she says SIT they sit.
The three year old is harder to train.
Owners are a different story-I go nuts watching people at shows and tests letting their dogs wander and wonder why the dogs get in trouble-thus the labs that got yelled at by me :roll:
My dogs try and let me handle it, as I am an advocate of the kill the cheer leaders too. If mine see a dog be nasty they look the other way and wait for me to do something. However, I hope they would defend themselves.
I also have to say, I will protect my dogs, which includes being vigilant.I do not leave them alone with puppies, but I don't panic if one gets in the room with the older ones. I do not leave the dogs alone with kids, although I trust them. I try not to put them in a position to get into trouble, and if I am not here, they are in different rooms. With the springer in a crate :shock:


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Creek Retrievers said:


> ErinsEdge said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I HAVE seen this with certain Golden owners. Their dog evenually gets in another dogs space who is not loose and then THAT dog gets smacked by the Golden owner.
> ...


She told you Penny was ugly? That's terrible because Penny is cute-naughty but cute. She's totally barnblind.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> Creek Retrievers said:
> 
> 
> > ErinsEdge said:
> ...


I let it go Nancy like a big girl. I know Penny is actually a fairly good looking golden especially when it comes to bitches. I guess this particular golden owner has lost her mind with all the weight. Enough said I don't want to incite a riot at future training sessions.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I think that we all can almost agree on that its usually the "Owners" of these aggressive dogs that is almost always the root of the problem. I also board and its amazing to me what I see come into the kennel on a daily basis. :shock: 
Here's something that most Goldens owners can agree on if they want to admit to it.How about the "Poop Eaters". What's up with that????????? :? 
I've seen it spring,summer,fall and winter. Just nasty :shock: :roll: Good Grief!!
Sue


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

Jim Wetzler said:


> I'm the owner of one of those so called nasty goldens....
> He's had 2 instances, one of which was initiated by a female lab whose puppy's were swaming over him.
> The other was by a dimwit handler in a trial when he walked his 110 lb chessie (intact) about 3 feet from me.



In my opinion, fighting just because a dog walks within 3 feet of him counts as dog aggressive. The day one of my dogs does that is the day he'll have so much from me to worry about that he won't have time to think about that dog walking past. 

I'm not saying this is appropriate to generalize to the breed, but I can't agree this is "so called." Again, my opinion, but it does count as actual nasty.


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## ajorda12 (Jul 21, 2007)

just my two cents ..... my friend was taking care of another friends golden the other week and one night when she was about to give the dog its dinner the dog randomly up and took a heaping chunk out of her leg without any provocation... she had to go get alot of stiches and had brusing all over her leg....

that just puts fuel on the fire that goldens are aggressive


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2007)

ajorda12 said:


> just my two cents ..... my friend was taking care of another friends golden the other week and one night when she was about to give the dog its dinner the dog randomly up and took a heaping chunk out of her leg without any provocation... she had to go get alot of stiches and had brusing all over her leg....
> 
> that just puts fuel on the fire that goldens are aggressive


Absolutely the opposite. Those with no profile on file here have little to no fuel. 

Don't care what the subject of thread is regards,

Melanie


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> ajorda12 said:
> 
> 
> > just my two cents ..... my friend was taking care of another friends golden the other week and one night when she was about to give the dog its dinner the dog randomly up and took a heaping chunk out of her leg without any provocation... she had to go get alot of stiches and had brusing all over her leg....
> ...


Dang Melanie,
You should collar condition this girl before you burn her with a high 5! Poor thing is like a new puppy peeing on your floor. Needs some instruction with only 5 posts. If after say 30 posts we don't know if she raises Rotties or rutabagas, then you can rock her world. :wink: 
Ken Bora


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

BenQuick said:


> Let me say there are dog aggressive dogs in all the breeds. But, I have noticed a much higher percentage of dog aggressive Goldens than in Labradors. Has this always been the case and a long standing trait with them? Or is this relative new development and not consideration in current breeding?


I have watched this thread for a while and have come to a conclusion ; the majority of those that feel Goldens are more aggressive than some of the other sport breeds have selectivly chosen accounts of a very few dogs to report and ignored all of the aggressive incidents that do not fit there arguement.
I own 2 intact males. Neither has ever started a fight. Both will defend themselves and have had to. One was jumped by a lab and in the process of pinning said lab was accused of starting the fight and the other was postured and gone after by 2 different chessies. He too came out better than the others.

Do I think labs ans chessies are more aggressive? No. Only those particular dogs. I blame the owner's.


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

Personally, I think that, once in a while, any breed can produce a dog that just ought to be shot. You are right, though, Golddogs, anecdotal evidence is just that. Doesn't prove trends, tendencies, etc. I'm sure this dog aggression is why Goldens have such a reputation as THE family dog - its because they are so aggressive. 

To inject a bit of science into this discussion, I quote from _Science_ 317:45 (6 July, 2007) "For instance, Nordic breeds are better able to deal with conflict, whereas golden retrievers show social tolerance." This is from a book review of _The Behavioral Biology of Dogs_. a new volume on, obviously, dog behavior. This is certainly an indictment of those darn agressive goldens.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

*Dog Aggressive Goldens*

Since people mention incidents they've witnessed, I think we have to allow that there could be some problem in some individuals (whatever your breed of choice).

If there is some problem with these individuals, it could be worthwhile to keep track of whether the problem is transmitted by that dog or occurs elsewhere in the dog's family.

We cannot solve a problem unless we acknowledge it exists. Dog aggression is dangerous to humans who might get in the way. 

I believe that there are 3 kinds of dogs: 1) Those that the worst trainer can't really ruin; 2) Those that can be "modified" by their quality of trainer; 3) Those that will be trouble no matter who the trainer is.

We do have a concern for #3. If a dog is a competitive wash-out and ends up going to a pet home, he better be #1 or #2. If he is the #3 the only solution may be euthanasia, because he is potentially dangerous to even an experienced person. 

Since I am only a barely adequate "alpha", I can deal with #1 and #2. My first Golden purchased for field specifically (1975) would have had good reason to bite a trainer who took three separate tries to get force fetch right. The fact that he didn't is, I believe, that he must have been a #1. He never looked for a chance to pick a fight, and went out of his way to avoid one. It wasn't out of lack of confidence. I never saw that dog's tail between his legs. I believe that self-confidence didn't require a chip on his shoulder. 

People do become defensive about this issue. It would be better out in the open. There is evidence the problem does exist in Goldens. With acknowledging where the problem comes up, a solution can be possible.


Gerry


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## Bente (Dec 3, 2004)

... never mind...

You don't learn about dogs on the internet.. but you sure can throw a lot of sh..


bp


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

BenQuick said:


> Let me say there are dog aggressive dogs in all the breeds. But, I have noticed a much higher percentage of dog aggressive Goldens than in Labradors. Has this always been the case and a long standing trait with them? Or is this relative new development and not consideration in current breeding?



What and the hell are you talking about?


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

*Aggressive goldens*

I have been a veterinary technician for 25 yrs and have seen almost every breed and mixed breed of dog known in some of the worse circumstances (stress, pain, fear). I have owned Goldens for 18 yrs; I also owned 2 pitbulls and 1 Australian Shepherd. Of all the dogs I owned the one I felt would be the least likely to bite me was one of my pit bulls, the one most likely to bite me was my Australian Shepherd. None of this had to do with aggressive tendencies, but rather pain tolerance. The pit bull was rather dog aggressive, having been rescued from a fighting kennel. The pit bull I have now is not at all aggressive. None of the Goldens I have owned have ever been dog or people aggressive. Have I seen aggressive Goldens, you bet. Aggressive Labs, hell yes. Aggressive Chessies, yes sir. How about Irish Water Spaniels, Portuguese Water Dogs, NSDTR; yes to all. The common denominator is usually the owner of the dog. Despite all of the signals being given off by the dog, they are clueless to the dog's rising alpha status and are genuinely shocked when their dog becomes aggressive. Is it more of a problem in Goldens; I can't say. I think people tend to trust Labs and Goldens more because of their reputation and they are unfortunately being bred by less than scrupulous people. Also, many of the field trial and competitive obedience and agility dogs are very high drive. Without a strong and steady hand at the wheel, many of these dogs can and do get out of hand. First time dog owners that purchase these nicely pedigreed dogs are not equipped to deal with all that drive. You've all seen these dog/handler combinations. I don't/won't condone or permit aggression with my dogs. I currently have 4 (3 goldens, 1 pitbull) 2 intact males - no problems. IMO dog aggressive dogs should be stepped on very hard and kept close to their handlers. People aggressive dogs should receive a lead vaccine - too many good dogs out there.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

Forget field trials, I am going to start training my Golden Retrievers for Schutzhund due to their "aggressive" nature. I will also breed my "aggressive" Goldens and with a little bit of luck, I will achieve the ultimate human face lickin' dog aggressive poop eatin' Golden that everyone will be envious of. If this sounds crazy, then don't read the last five pages of posts regarding Golden Retrievers and aggression.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

*Aggressive goldens*

I have been a veterinary technician for 25 yrs and have seen almost every breed and mixed breed of dog known in some of the worse circumstances (stress, pain, fear). I have owned Goldens for 18 yrs; I also owned 2 pitbulls and 1 Australian Shepherd. Percentage wise, Goldens are no more aggressive than Labs or Chessies. (In another time/post I can give you a list of the dog breeds most likely to bite. )Of all the dogs I owned the one I felt would be the least likely to bite me was one of my pit bulls, the one most likely to bite me was my Australian Shepherd. None of this had to do with aggressive tendencies, but rather pain tolerance. The pit bull was rather dog aggressive, having been rescued from a fighting kennel. The pit bull I have now is not at all aggressive. None of the Goldens I have owned have ever been dog or people aggressive. Have I seen aggressive Goldens, you bet. Aggressive Labs, hell yes. Aggressive Chessies, yes sir. How about Irish Water Spaniels, Portuguese Water Dogs, NSDTR; yes to all. The common denominator is usually the owner of the dog. Despite all of the signals being given off by the dog, they are clueless to the dog's rising alpha status and are genuinely shocked when their dog becomes aggressive. I think people tend to trust Labs and Goldens more because of their reputation and they are unfortunately being bred by less than scrupulous people. Also, many of the field trial and competitive obedience and agility dogs are very high drive. Without a strong and steady hand at the wheel, many of these dogs can and do get out of hand. First time dog owners that purchase these nicely pedigreed dogs are not equipped to deal with all that drive. You've all seen these dog/handler combinations. I don't/won't condone or permit aggression with my dogs. I currently have 4 (3 goldens, 1 pitbull) 2 intact males - no problems. IMO dog aggressive dogs should be stepped on very hard and kept close to their handlers. People aggressive dogs should receive a lead vaccine - too many good dogs out there.


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## Anne Everett (Jan 14, 2005)

Sorry - I couldn't resist


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

I was just thinking that I've seen much more aggressive behavior right here on this forum than I have ever seen in Goldens. 

Arleen


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Troopers Mom said:


> I was just thinking that I've seen much more aggressive behavior right here on this forum than I have ever seen in Goldens.
> 
> Arleen


Yes Arleen, but she's people aggressive, not dog aggressive. The only one I know to "out alpha" her is Mr. Pickering. :wink: 


John


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

The horsehoe crab had it comin'.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I think thats why their owners put bandana's on them. Their two ashamed to bite.

/Paul


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## Anne Everett (Jan 14, 2005)

Great photo Anney


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Lookit those aggressive little whippersnappers. They got the old one on the ground and they're goin in for the kill.


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I think thats why their owners put bandana's on them. Their two ashamed to bite.
> 
> /Paul



Sort of like this, Paul?










Arleen


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

John Gassner said:


> The only one I know to "out alpha" her is Mr. Pickering. :wink:
> John


Is there something you feel like you need to get off your chest Mr. Gassner?


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## maydayretrievers (May 30, 2005)

Goldens rule the rest just druel..


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > Needless to say old Chief didn't handle pressure well. Dang that was a great day of training...
> ...


Melanie....do your best Paul Harvey with “the rest of the story”


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## maydayretrievers (May 30, 2005)

melanie are we talking the same chief that i know...if it is the same chief i know and trained for year that dog did not have a mean bone in his body...
telus just used to much presure..his own fault...to bad the owner didn't put the time in on the dog or stay with it...


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Like some that posted was going to stay out of it but! Here is my two cents. In my other life of dogs have been involved as a Sentry dog trainer (old school bite first ask question later) Police Service Dog Trainer (new school, command dogs etc.) Owned and trained Golden Retrievers from about 1964 through the late 1980's as a hobby, field and obedience. On five or six occasions was involved in some serious altercations with Goldens and wittnessed a few others. Without exception they all occured while some form of pressure was being applied and the dogs "protest bit" . I have some severe puncture scars on my right arm as the result of a aggitation bite from a very large GS Sentry dog. I have a puncture wound through my right hand, top to bottom from a disgruntled Doberman owned as a Police Service dog for a Local Forest Preserve Police Agency. I have a scar on my left ankle, through a leather boot from a very aggitated GS Military type dog whom I presented with a kick after falling down to stop him from body bitting me. There are more stories. ALL, were trained dogs taught to bite a human 
prey! The Goldens that did bite without exception were ONLY defending themselves from some form of Mental (the e-collar) or the Electric Prod or were being beaten with a whip/strap etc. I watched one Golden while e-collar pressure applied close to the handler for a no go, tear the blouse from it's handler's clothing in protest. Another was bitting the groin area of it's trainer (it was sort of humorous) he used an electric prod on the dog (without noosing him first). None were biting the handlers for the pure sake of bitting !! To indict the breed, Goldens, is pure ludicrist as potential biters, me thinks any of the retriever breeds when put to severe pressure might bite.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

So are these examples of Goldens naturally aggressive or victims of incorrect training ? If they are born that way will they breed or have they been put down already ? If so much pressure is put on a dog that it has turned aggressive than the end certainly does not justify the means.

I remember interviewing pros when I first started and one guy said he could MAKE the dog do what ever I wanted. Hind sight I should have kept his number and teach the dog to mow the lawn and make ballon animals for the kids. :roll:


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

Gee-whizz...let it rest. All dogs are different just like all people are different. If you like Goldens get a Golden. If you like Labs get a Lab, just teach, monitor, be sensitive to the learning process and don't let your own anger or frustration get in the way of that process. Enough said by a Golden owner......peace!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Look at the link in another thread about "he's just trying to say hi". That is a brilliant article, and ironically enough, I first discovered it long, long before I found RTF. I do believe that a lot of posters here are making "aggression issues" out of normal behaviours. I know I am the beginner, but common sense is common sense. I personaly still have huge issues that we had to use prods or guns to teach our dogs anything. I believe if that were ever necessary, It was not about knowing dogs. And that is my only problem with this whole game. The psychey (sp) that can justify that is not a "sport" I can live with. 

We are the leaders. The dogs are our devoted servants. If they become agressive, I believe it is in their upbringing. I cry every time hear that some NFL fan is pissed off that Vick has ruined the sport. Bullshit, the man abused animals, and people that support pro sports need to realize the dogs were not "born to fight" they were intentionally bred and raised that way. It is a human sin, not a dogs. What other species is raised to destroy? Only humans.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Criquetpas said:


> Another was bitting the groin area of it's trainer (it was sort of humorous) he used an electric prod on the dog (without noosing him first). None were biting the handlers for the pure sake of bitting !! To indict the breed, Goldens, is pure ludicrist as potential biters, me thinks any of the retriever breeds when put to severe pressure might bite.


Ugg, sorry, the above just makes me nauseous. Hopefully I'm too naive to believe that sort of "training" still takes place, but there is absolutely no excuse for treating a dog like that. I don't even want to know what the trainer was trying to accomplish. I wouldn't find anything about that scenario humorous, it's sad, disturbing and disgusting.

--Anney


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Criquetpas said:


> None were biting the handlers for the pure sake of bitting !! To indict the breed, Goldens, is pure ludicrist as potential biters, me thinks any of the retriever breeds when put to severe pressure might bite.


Thank you, Earl, with your help I have finally figured out what people are so worked up over.

It has never been my intention to indict the Golden breed, for which I have great respect and affection. Nor to say or imply that any of them bit people for the pure sake of biting. If I heard of such a thing, I would think one of two things was true: either the observer failed to see what was offending the dog, or the dog was twisted far outside the norm for the breed.

I think there has been a major misunderstanding over the meaning of the word, "aggression." It seems some people here take use of the word as implying the things you mentioned--unprovoked, unjustified attacks, abnormal behavior, an indictment of any dog it is associated with.

I have been trying to learn about aggression over several years, and have fallen into using the term as the behaviorists and students of aggression do. They say that "aggression" covers a range of behaviors including many that are normal; that aggression is essential to the workings of a social group. The short explanation for the effect of aggression is to "increase social distance," whether the "aggression" in question is a look, growl, snarl, or worse. Aggression is detailed and ritualized, so that the intended effect can be achieved without frequent injuries, a look or a growl often being sufficient.

I think this view makes sense because if you want to figure out what is going on in sudden, apparently unprovoked aggression, you need to look at the fundamentals that underlie it. Maybe the provocation just wasn't apparent. In almost all cases, I believe aggression occurs in a context that makes sense to the dog. It would be hard to describe events accurately if the label "aggression" were applied on the basis of whether or not the observer could figure out the cause, and judge it justifiable. That's subjective. It's easier to say whether a growl or bite occurred. Growls or bites are the subject of study, regardless of cause. Further, bites and other behavior can create liability for the dog's owner, regardless of whether we find them justifiable from the dog's point of view.

Obviously it wouldn't do to expect everyone here to change their usage of the word, "aggression." I don't ask anyone to. I am trying to explain only in the hopes people will understand how I got into viewing it differently--and that what I meant was not what some of you seemed to think I meant. I intend to wise up and use other terms if I want to talk about dogs that bite, growl, start fights, finish fights, et cetera.

This thread has had a twilight zone quality, with people describing Golden behavior that fits exactly with my view of the breed, but putting it forward as evidence that I'm wrong. I hope some or all of you will accept that what I intended to say was and is not what you thought I was saying.

So...I will apologize for my stupidity in forgetting what I used to mean by "aggression," and that that is how the word is used in general here. 

There is a low incidence of Golden retrievers getting into fights with other dogs. In my opinion, this is not new. Also in my opinion, the Golden personality has held up remarkably well in the face of careless breeding, many of the "pet" type Goldens that come for boarding or training showing classic and typical Golden behavior.

Hope that clears the air.

Amy Dahl


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## Gina (Mar 9, 2005)

Thought this article was relevant to this topic...

http://www.livingwithdogs.us/articles/He-just-wants-to-say-hi.pdf


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Good article.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

That article is great.

In my opinion, one or two folks may want to take stock of the way they essentially implied that Amy Dahl must be abusive to dogs. It was a gray area, for-sure, but the implication could be seen if one looks for it.

Amy, thanks for your clarification on your terminology. 

The article is great!

Chris


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## hdlabs (Nov 1, 2006)

my male lab is aggressive toward other males dogs, but that's it. Is there anything that I can do to work with him through that? He is fine with female dogs once he smells them and as gentle as he can be with people. Just wants to be the dominant male dog.
Thanks.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

afdahl said:


> In my experience, they come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Field. Bench. Pet. BYB. IMO generalization is appropriate. I find the Golden personality traits are remarkably consistent across dogs of different breeding. The males are notably worse than Labs or Chesapeakes for attacking other males, and need closer supervision.
> 
> Also some trainers have been badly bitten by Goldens.
> 
> ...


When I was first turning pro 16+ years ago I was told by several pros that the "issue" with Goldens was that they'd take and take pressure and then SNAP, where as a Lab or Ches would let you know you were pushing them.

The majority the old "so and so was torn up" stories I was told by professionals, it was a Golden that did the tearing.

My personal experience finds this to be true. Goldens [in general] seem to take pressure and then panic/snap with much less warning the labs/ches and are more aggressive around other dogs.


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## mhitesman (Oct 5, 2007)

I have both an adult lab (3) and an adult golden (5). Both are intact males and both were carefully and responsibly bred to be field dogs. Anyone with evil intentions toward me, particularly on my property, would probably be in big trouble from either. The lab is submissive and the golden has always been dominant. The dominance must be constantly managed, and the golden occasionally needs a firm hand (not literally) as he is always ready to assume pack leader position if no one else appears to have it. Both dogs have been socialized and continue to have many playmates -- including much smaller dogs. A new dog would have to be introduced carefully -- particularly on my property, though. My lab was attacked by a 6 pack of (adopted) strays a few weeks ago. He ran to them to play. He just hunkered down until I could get there to scare off the dogs even though he was bitten a couple times. I was able to call back the golden and kennel him or all heck would have broken out as my golden would not start the fight, but he would have attempted to protect his "brother" without a doubt. I do not perceive this as aggression, but dominance. I have often wondered whether the difference between my two dogs is breed related or just the fact that one has always been dominant and the other has always been submissive.


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