# want in the field trial game



## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Need advice, have 18 month old lab, we are playing the derby game. not doing well. we have a Jr. title. Dog has been with pro for 13 months. Being realistic I would say he will make a great hunt test dog but beyond that my guess is very questionable. I will not give up on him yet however I want a backup plan. Question. Do I start from scratch with puppy out of great field trial champions or is it better to buy a dog already producing points with a great start. Please give me your opinions.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Some people keep their dog and run it until it retires whether it wins or not. It's their pet and a hobby. Some folks don't see promise in a young dog and re-home the dog to a hunt test/pet home and start over. 

You make the choice based on your goals for your dog and yourself.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Oh, I definitely plan on continuing to work with my current dog. I was looking for opinions from Senior members such as yourself that obviously has been in the game what they would do or suggest for dog number two.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Do both. Tell your pro what you are looking for--winning now (very pricey) or needing some more training to run AA (smaller check but riskier) or whatever--and ask him or her to keep an eye open for one that you would put on the truck. It will probably take a while because unless you are ready to really throw down the $$, good ones don't show up every day (I have had a pro looking for almost a year). Meanwhile, get a new pup, get it going and off to the young dog pro. Best of both worlds!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

This is a hard sport to enter cold. I would advise you to hook up with some experienced amateurs or an established FT Pro and ask them for their input. And be prepared for the possibility that you have purchased the best puppy possible and still not be competitive


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Some secondhand experience here. I've watched a veteran FT guy looking for a competitive dog over the last couple years, and he is on pup #3.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

You still have to spend time on the line to learn so, having one old mediocre dog and one up and comer isn't a bad plan IMO.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Stop.

Here is my advice. Sit down and write a large check to someone who will not return the money. Low six figures is probably sufficient, but double that if you REALLY want to have the FT experience. (I can PM you my address if you need someone to send the check to)

Next, find a new hobby and enjoy your free time.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> You still have to spend time on the line to learn so, having one old mediocre dog and one up and comer isn't a bad plan IMO.


Wow Paul quit talking to Plesko about me!  Will I see you Saturday? 
What has been said here is wisdom by some very accomplished trialers. If you trust/believe in your pro ask them what they think. I have a nice young dog that at 18 months ran her first derby two weeks ago because we are looking at wanting an AA dog not derby flash in the pan. Very few make it.

Jeff


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Ouch, sounds like you have not had a good experience. That's what I want to avoid is $200,000.00 and still can not play the game. Hobbies are expensive. I am well aware of that. I also like to ask advice from the cast of folks who have been there, been working on getting there or are there. Thank you for your reply however I don't know it help me much!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

You have two options, buy your way in or start and the bottom and work up. If you decide to buy your way in establish a relationship one of the top field trial pros, tell them what you want and how much you are willing to spend. 

If you start at the bottom, as it seems you already have, buy a puppy from a proven breeding or a proven bitch. As Ted said be prepared to do some culling although I known a number of people who did very well with their first puppy. A good rule of thumb to follow is never keep a dog that is not better than the one you already have. 

Good luck, it can be an arduous but fulfilling journey. If you have children, especially small ones take up bowling or croquet. If you want to train your own dog be prepared to prostitute yourself to the best trainer(s) in your area be they amateur or professional or both and be a sponge. And it really really helps to have a highly supportive spouse!

Danny Farmer often says you can't talk someone into it (field trials) and you can't talk someone out of it.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

william,

1. if i had a nice fc x fc litter, i would suggest that route and "consider" selling one of my pups to you.(that's how i would build the air of exclusivity for my breeding)

2. if i had a nice derby performer with a win and at least ten points, i would suggest that you buy it before some of the other interested parties snap her up.(that's how i build a sense of urgency for my dog)

3. if i had a four year old fc for sale, i would suggest you go that route since it's the only "sure way to get one". i would add that it may also be the low cost option too.......depending on how lucky and good you are.

i have a life long habit of setting goals for myself, attaining the goal and then losing interest in whatever the "current obsession" was. i then move on to the "next big thing". one example was when i started playing golf with friends in college. i set the goal of beating my buddy on the golf team in a round of 18 holes and shooting even par on my little home club. two years later i shot 72 at the club and beat my buddy the day of his bachelor party.(he was distracted i think) 27 years ago and i aint played golf five times since? lots of other examples.

what has that got to do with dogs you ask? about three years ago i decided i was gonna make me a field trial lab. how hard can it be? so far my dogs have amassed 9 derby jams, one win, one second, one third in the derby and one qual win.(the qual win was with a dog i had sold to someone else and was placed with a pro thirty days earlier. i take a little credit for it....how much training did he really do in thirty days, right?;-)) i aint even had a sniff of, nor even a justifiable thought of entry in an all age stake! NOT EVEN CLOSE! after all of my extra time, dedication and money my newest goal looks to be gonna take the rest of my life! the way i am going about it is choice 1. btw.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

see you Saturday


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

william halfrich said:


> . That's what I want to avoid is $200,000.00 and still can not play the game. !


If that was the entry fee most of us would not be in the game


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Dave Plesko said:


> Stop.
> 
> Here is my advice. Sit down and write a large check to someone who will not return the money. Low six figures is probably sufficient, but double that if you REALLY want to have the FT experience. (I can PM you my address if you need someone to send the check to)
> 
> Next, find a new hobby and enjoy your free time.



Hey, want to go crabbing and salmon fishing and then hit the beach bon-fire with all the college bikini girls? Oh, forgot... you'll be at a field trial this weekend...bummer lol- That happens to me all the time.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Sounds like me. It may take me the rest of my life but I have a goal and I hope I never loose interest.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Not bad experience.Just a reality check. Saturday will be in Tacoma with Plesko. Maybe I should go salmon fishing instead.Don't need the beach babes though, happy with the one stuck with me.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

william halfrich said:


> Ouch, sounds like you have not had a good experience. That's what I want to avoid is $200,000.00 and still can not play the game. Hobbies are expensive. I am well aware of that. I also like to ask advice from the cast of folks who have been there, been working on getting there or are there. Thank you for your reply however I don't know it help me much!


We are talking about the good experiences! This is fun, right? Seriously, If your budget is $200k, you can play the game. You can be running for colors by this weekend, if you want to. With that kind of cash you can be running in the NFC in November.

However, if you are not in the price range of something that proven, the reason to get with a good pro and ask them to help you find a dog is that they are going to be better at evaluating the dog than you are and they are not going to want to waste a hole on a dog that they don't think they will eventually win with. No guarantees, but it gives you someone who knows what they are looking at and has a vested interest in getting you a good dog. Doing the started dog thing yourself leads to the inevitable "why are you selling the dog?" question and the even scarier "if it is such a great dog, why is the current pro letting it off the truck instead of getting another client to pick it up". Believe me, I have been there.

So, I have a pro who knows what I want and can afford to pay looking for a started dog. Meanwhile, my wife got tired of running our "not sniffing the last series animals" and decided she wanted her own, better dog. So we have a nicely bred and hopefully very talented pup getting ready to go off to young dog college.

As Dr. Ed pointed out few folks nail it with their first dog, but I know a couple of folks who have and my wife has always had that kind of luck (she married me, didn't she  )


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

william halfrich said:


> Need advice, have 18 month old lab, *we are playing the derby game*. not doing well. we have a Jr. title. Dog has been with pro for 13 months. Being realistic I would say he will make a great hunt test dog but beyond that my guess is very questionable. I will not give up on him yet however I want a backup plan. Question. Do I start from scratch with puppy out of great field trial champions or is it better to buy a dog already producing points with a great start. Please give me your opinions.


Do you plan to be the one running the dog in FT's ?

Tell us a little more about the dog you have now...What is the breeding ? Are you, or is it your Pro, that is running the dog in the Derby ? When you say not doing very well , what do you mean ? Can the dog do what is generally accepted as being a cheating single as a memory mark of a water dbl in training ? 

john


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

The surest way is to buy a dog that is already competitive. Hard to find and expensive, but they do turn up. 

The fun way is to buy a pup and watch it develop. You might need to buy several before you get the "one." You may get it right the first time. As Ted said you may buy a well bred pup that isn't good enough, most aren't.

Dogs are neat in that you may buy the next great one as a puppy. Reality is that you probably won't.

Don't get bogged down with the money that people say they've spent. It isn't all that expensive. It's not cheap but not as bad as most think.

Buy a pup from 2 good dogs. A lot of people breed their JH to an NFC. That could be great but there's usually a better chance with an FCxFC. Still just a chance though. Buy the best dog you can afford and give it the best training you can afford and you "might" be successful.

The training is the fun part, if you enjoy it. The FC AFC goal is nice but you have to enjoy doing it too.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

william halfrich said:


> Need advice, have 18 month old lab, we are playing the derby game. not doing well. we have a Jr. title. Dog has been with pro for 13 months. Being realistic I would say he will make a great hunt test dog but beyond that my guess is very questionable. I will not give up on him yet however I want a backup plan. Question. Do I start from scratch with puppy out of great field trial champions or is it better to buy a dog already producing points with a great start. Please give me your opinions.


I train my own dogs from puppy to the end. It is a very rewarding fulfilling hobby It is also extremely rewarding. I have met great friends and have a great relationship with all my dogs. However it is not a hobby for you if you need positive reinforcement in the forms of blue ribbons. Those are few and far between for working guys like me that 100% train & run their own dogs in FT's. If you need that ribbon fix then stick to HT's. However if you truly want to aspire to having the best dog possible then FT;s is where its at My suggestion is that if you are serious about this game that it can be a bumpy ride; but richly rewarding. Also I'd suggest you change your last name to "Quarterrich" as this hobby can get pricey with dogs, training gear, dog trucks, training grounds, bulldozer fees etc etc


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

EdA said:


> If that was the entry fee most of us would not be in the game


Might not be the entry fee, but put a couple of dogs with pros and it could easily be the total.

BTW, quit messing with my game. If he doesn't send me the $200K, how am I supposed to afford 2 dogs with a pro for the next 10 years?


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Pro is currently running the dog at trials, I go out and throw marks and run dogs at the kennel 4 to 6 times a week with the pro and other clients. Most the time it is him and I with maybe one other person. Had real tough time in early part of spring with dog breaking and creeping. Pulled dog away from competition and worked on steading him up. Good now. On a scale one to ten I would give him a 5 to six on marking. Gets to the area consistently but is not a step on the mark bird. Puts on a hunt usually from there. On long marks has been back siding the gunner. Bought the dog from the Kennel or my pro originally as a hunting dog but as my friend Craig says they fed me the cool aid. I got hooked.I absolutely love this sport. Pedigree is so so. Some Trial dogs in the back grounds but nothing consistent. Yes he can generally handle the cheating single in a double water mark. I think his concentration is week however, too much head swinging and memory is a little week. Some days he looks like he could win it all and other days I ask is that the same dog. That's dogs for you. I barely was able to get him his Jr. Hunt title this summer. Would not hold the birds when he came back or pick them up. We corrected that. The pro I am with knows where I stand. In fairness to him he has done a great job with the dog. Could someone else have done better. I don't know. I have learnt to never compare dogs. They learn and progress differently. When you go to a trail and see a 17 month old pup already derbied out and you look at your dog that gets dropped by the end of the first series its hard to understand. But again I know dogs learn and progress differently. Do I think it hurt my dog to stay in Minnesota last winter and not send him south with a trainer. I do. Now I am trying to decide do I send him this winter and put that money in him or keep him here and train him with other amateur's and not have him with the pro. I think he will no doubt be a Master Hunter someday. This is why I am seeking the advice is it better to buy a puppy out of some great breeding or buy a 3 year old in the game doing it. The second choice I know is expensive but when I think that I have close to $8,000 almost in just training in one year I wonder. Could take forever to buy the dog running versus the puppy with the right gene pool. Even if all the sudden my current dog takes off I am still adding dog #2.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

I put the check in the mail. Let me know if you don't have it by the end of the week.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Dave Plesko said:


> but put a couple of dogs with pros and it could easily be the total.


These are numbers we prefer not to reflect on, probabaly closing in on that with current crew, still working to support my habit


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

EdA said:


> These are numbers we prefer not to reflect on, probabaly closing in on that with current crew, still working to support my habit


Ahhh the price of success. 
You have earned it Doc. I am sure you try not to count the cost in hours either.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

william halfrich said:


> Pro is currently running the dog at trials, I go out and throw marks and run dogs at the kennel 4 to 6 times a week with the pro and other clients. Most the time it is him and I with maybe one other person. Had real tough time in early part of spring with dog breaking and creeping. Pulled dog away from competition and worked on steading him up. Good now. On a scale one to ten I would give him a 5 to six on marking. Gets to the area consistently but is not a step on the mark bird. Puts on a hunt usually from there. On long marks has been back siding the gunner. Bought the dog from the Kennel or my pro originally as a hunting dog but as my friend Craig says they fed me the cool aid. I got hooked.I absolutely love this sport. Pedigree is so so. Some Trial dogs in the back grounds but nothing consistent. Yes he can generally handle the cheating single in a double water mark. I think his concentration is week however, too much head swinging and memory is a little week. Some days he looks like he could win it all and other days I ask is that the same dog. That's dogs for you. I barely was able to get him his Jr. Hunt title this summer. Would not hold the birds when he came back or pick them up. We corrected that. The pro I am with knows where I stand. In fairness to him he has done a great job with the dog. Could someone else have done better. I don't know. I have learnt to never compare dogs. They learn and progress differently. When you go to a trail and see a 17 month old pup already derbied out and you look at your dog that gets dropped by the end of the first series its hard to understand. But again I know dogs learn and progress differently. Do I think it hurt my dog to stay in Minnesota last winter and not send him south with a trainer. I do. Now I am trying to decide do I send him this winter and put that money in him or keep him here and train him with other amateur's and not have him with the pro. I think he will no doubt be a Master Hunter someday. This is why I am seeking the advice is it better to buy a puppy out of some great breeding or buy a 3 year old in the game doing it. The second choice I know is expensive but when I think that I have close to $8,000 almost in just training in one year I wonder. Could take forever to buy the dog running versus the puppy with the right gene pool. Even if all the sudden my current dog takes off I am still adding dog #2.


I think you are correct about the winter trip.

If you decide to go the puppy route...Look for a repeat breeding, from a proven nic, FC AFC top and bottom .Figure 3/4K +-
Time the breeding so the 8 week pick up date, corresponds with the winter trip.
Send the dog you have now South, and do the puppy stuff with your puppy at home.This will give you a lot of 1 on 1 time with the puppy 

Take a few trips South over the winter with your puppy in tow. On these trips introduce the puppy to water also monitor the other dogs progress. 
On the last trip leave the puppy to be FF, etc. Switch them out if finances or lack of progress in the older dog dictate, or leave them both if they do not.....

Post back often and let us know how you are making out .

john


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

As Ted pointed out above, a great pedigree does not guarantee a successful dog...but it sure is a lot better than getting a dog from a mediocre pedigree. Go into Entry Express and study the parentage of the dogs that are placing at the all age stakes. You will not see a lot dogs without titles on one or both of the parents. If you look deeper in the pedigree you will find that most of them are loaded with FC and/or AFC's in each generation. 

There is more art and science to breeding that just throwing a couple of FCs together. The great breeders know which lineages will compliment each other. That is why Trumarc and Candlewood have produced so many awesome dogs. Do the research on which lines work well together. Go to trials and talk to people in the gallery about breeding. There is a lot experience there.

A lot of new people use the mediocre or worse pros. If you are going to invest a fortune in training, it might as well be with a successful pro. There are no guarantees, but a great breeding and a great pro are going to increase the odds over a mediocre dog and a mediocre pro.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Thank you Ted and Russ, great advice. I think I need to start looking for the right puppy. I have the pro in mind to send my current dog with this winter. It would be a shame to not give the current dog the time and chance to see if he can play. Also the point of switching them out in the spring makes sense. Thank you John. Ted your advice in choosing the puppy with the right pedigree is a key. I understand no guarantee but that's where it has to start. That's where I will need lots of help for the science of it is over my head.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Thank you John, great advice


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

william halfrich said:


> I put the check in the mail. Let me know if you don't have it by the end of the week.


Thank You Sir!!!

Now that we have the financial aspect fleshed out, are you prepared for the Masochism involved?

Are you prepared to hit your thumb with a hammer 10 to 20 Sunday afternoons a year? Followed by a long drive?


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

haven't read all prior posts , so my apologies if this has been said already... What does you pro who had pup over a year say ? And is the pro qualified to give an opinion based on said pros record ? .....Has the pro been successful in the derby game ? the Q ? AA stakes ? A HT pro is not a FT pro IMHO . And what is the reason(s) for you not having much luck at this juncture ? And get someone else's opinion on the reason , not just the pro and yourself .Since hindsight is 20/20 , take a good look behind you before you look ahead . Good luck in whatever you decide 
It's only money regards .......


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

I have so far adjusted to the fact that I am never going to be able to afford anything else including a new pick up. That I am going to at times more often than not wonder why the heck am I doing this, and what good is all the money I am spending with the trainer. Why am I spending all my free time throwing fly crap infested dead smelling ducks, Why am I starting to drink and I can no longer get a good night sleep. I am as sick as the rest of you but just haven't done it nearly as long. I have the sickness and I am week. I love this game and being around dogs and field trials. So far I have met some very amazing people. Some poor some rich but all with the same passion.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Thank you John for taking the time to post. Some good advice here and I appreciate it. Need a second opinion. You are right and I am going to get one before the end of this month.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi Bill

Welcome to RTF and to the sport that is as addictive as crack cocaine but the highs last so much longer. I was going to write something earlier but I had to go out shopping for a good divorce attorney and do some training with my dogs “she said, it’s either me or the dogs”. You have been getting some good advice from people on RTF, I would just add that to possible succeed in the field trial game not only do you need an exceptional dog but you also need an exceptional trainer, whether that trainer is you or a pro. Best of luck to you.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

william halfrich said:


> I have so far adjusted to the fact that I am never going to be able to afford anything else including a new pick up. That I am going to at times more often than not wonder why the heck am I doing this, and what good is all the money I am spending with the trainer. Why am I spending all my free time throwing fly crap infested dead smelling ducks, Why am I starting to drink and I can no longer get a good night sleep. I am as sick as the rest of you but just haven't done it nearly as long. I have the sickness and I am week. I love this game and being around dogs and field trials. So far I have met some very amazing people. Some poor some rich but all with the same passion.


I got an email yesterday about a year old dog with arguably the best young dog trainer in the country for sale for $10k. The guy selling would know better than to ask that kind of money for a common dog. How soon you looking to get your hands on another prospect, provided the dog isn't already sold?


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Buzz said:


> I got an email yesterday about a year old dog with arguably the best young dog trainer in the country for sale for $10k. The guy selling would know better than to ask that kind of money for a common dog. How soon you looking to get your hands on another prospect, provided the dog isn't already sold?


I thought you liked Mick?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Mr Halfrich: you are already in the game, what you aspire to do is be an instant competitor at the highest level on the National stage...as many will attest to, many have tried, some with very deep pocket$$$$, some with moderate success,some with outstanding success...BUT many that achieved success did so as an owner and not necessarily an owner/handler..I guess it comes down to your definition of success..if its an FC or AFC there are avenues to make those achievable...If its to put an NFC or NAFC in front of the dog's name then you are chasing the holy grail of retriever training..many have spent a lifetime and a trust fund chasing those titles, a few got them with little fanfare and left the game and were not heard from again

Good Luck to you on chasing your new found guilty pleasure..I hope the chase is as exciting and pleasurable as the fantasy of it is..it can be a mean and cruel mistress, it can be worse than a high priced drug habit...But to steal a line from a TV show "...why do I keep hitting myself with a hammer ?....because it feels so damn good when I stop"


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

William

This is a great sport. As Danny Farmer said, you can't talk someone into field trial, and once they're in, you cannot talk them out of field trials. It is a very addictive hobby, which cannot be explained to anyone who is not afflicted. I have been doing this for over 15 years now, and remain as passionate - may be more so - than the day I began. 

If you are to enjoy yourself in your affliction - and not drive yourself and those around you crazy, you need to appreciate the journey and not focus on the trapping (ribbons, etc)

It is hard to find a good started dog - they are mostly accounted for through the secret handshake club - but, if you can, and you can afford the initial outlay, it is money well spent. 

If you go the puppy route, you can go through alot of puppies before you find the right one with the talent to be competitive

Enjoy the ride

Ted


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Buzz said:


> I got an email yesterday about a year old dog with arguably the best young dog trainer in the country for sale for $10k.


you and 5000 other people


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I wasn't part of the 5000. Cough up the details.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I wasn't part of the 5000. Cough up the details.


the pup in question is now listed in the RTF classified section


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Thank you Terry for weighing in with the support. I have received so much great advice and support its amazing Again thank you. Good luck with the attorney.


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## HuntClub (Sep 24, 2012)

Mr. Halfrich, I sent you a PM


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> the pup in question is now listed in the RTF classified section


Quite possibly best classified ad ever. I have never met the guy but he sounds like a straight shooter.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

william halfrich said:


> Ouch, sounds like you have not had a good experience. That's what I want to avoid is $200,000.00 and still can not play the game. Hobbies are expensive. I am well aware of that. I also like to ask advice from the cast of folks who have been there, been working on getting there or are there. Thank you for your reply however I don't know it help me much!


Buy a really nice big boat!!!!

I would do a little of both regarding your options. Buy a really nice puppy, and be on the lookout for a really nice started dog. They are few and far between that come without issues. If there is a pro in your area that you would want to work with, get in touch with them and let them know that you were on the lookout for a nice started dog you be willing to keep with that particular pro. Sometimes they have the inside scoop on nice breedings. But avid field trialers in the area may know as well.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

About puppies, as has been said, there are no guarantees. But if you will spend the time looking for a well-bred field trial litter, you have the potential to get a field trial pup.

What is a well-bred litter? Here's my opinion... pay a lot of attention to the bitches that are up in front of the pedigree. They brought to the table at least 50% and sometimes more. Spend some time studying Derby lists of the past 3 or 4 years. What was their breeding? You'll see some sire names over and over. You'll see the bitches they clicked with. Start a list and be sure to include the dam's name and what was behind her. Spend some time studying the dogs who have qualified for more than one National Open and more than one National Amateur for the past 3, 4, or more years. Who are they, where did they come from? Who were the national finalists for the past 3 or 4 years. What you are looking for is consistency of proven ability and who were the dogs who produced them.

Helen


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Run before it's too late


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Thank you Susan, I am at the Trial in Duluth this weekend and I am going to start networking as so I can reach my goal.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Man I hear you and bought about running but I think it is too late. At age 60 with two daughters heading to college and a great wife. Well I need to lets say have something to do and keep me out of the house and gone! My dog is a he so at least I have a buddy! My dog is always happy to see me and hang out with old dad! When I go to the trials I see a lot of people just like me.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Thank you Helen, great advice and a great place to start. I think I am spending too much time just focusing in the Sire and you are absolutely right. The Bitch is as big of a factor. With both having proven competitive backgrounds and I suppose follow up on their off spring to see what type of pups they are throwing makes sense. I do realize I have my homework cut out for me and I have to slow it down a little. I have received so much great advice from this posting it is absolutely amazing. Again Thank you all


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

*ok if it's too late*

Here are some things I've either heard about or observed. I would have said don't get married or have kids so here goes-use the 10% rule with your wife re any related expenses, obtain secret email address for training bills, go in 50% on made AA dog tell her it belongs to the other guy and he lets you put your name on it so you can run it(nice guy) don't tell AKC (our little secret), or if you get caught say it was him(read throw Tom under bus), find hot young pro within 200 miles who will let you run lots of dogs on his truck while yelling at you for a year or two, buy multiple made dogs or a young well bred started dog(read -I rescued him from mean people and be prepared to spend at least $10,000) and when it does well (-your a great trainer) all this while waiting on difficult, talented "great black hope" that you eventually wash out take her to a trial-keep her away from big mouths and" Yes Dear, we like to watch dogs doing the same thing all day long "(she won't come back) also keep the info on that trip to Paris or that special watch or piece of jewelry in your back pocket for when the horrible truth rears it's head, and after having modest success a win, multiple placements, or consistently going deep or jams and you realize that to you that validates the obscene amount of money you have spent and there is no hope of escape (read no rehab programs available) then maybe you will have a chance to spend that $3-5000 on that puppy no one hears about. GOOD LUCK!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> You still have to spend time on the line to learn so, having one old mediocre dog and one up and comer isn't a bad plan IMO.


Agree with this 110%. Maybe you do some hunting tests with him to get handling experience while you bring up a new youngster for FT. You may need a gun dog also, so that's a good job for him. Also, you can do other things like obedience or tracking with a dog that doesn't mark so well, and learn a lot about reading, training and handling a dog in those other venues. 

No need to get rid of him but if you want to compete, I would plan to go through a few dogs before I found the right one. They are very few and far between.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

I took another approach. We went out to look at a local litter sired by an NAFC. I convinced my wife she should have one of the pups and train it. She did the basics but he was injured early but only made it to a JH. The next dog was mine and she ran him some of the time getting SH & MH passes on him. Her next dog was a Lean Mac son and we sent him off to a class A field trial pro. Florence spent time with the pro and her pup and learned a ton. I am sitting in my home office working while she is out with the training group trying to prepare what she hopes will be a future NFC.

Now $10,000 seems cheap after buying a second home and summer training property in Montana. I wonder how much of the expenses she is hiding from me.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Don's driving around in an old Ford 350 with a camper shell and 3 dog crates. There is a reason for that. A new 6-hole dog box would require that he fill all the holes. 3 dogs to train and trial -- that's enough for one old man. 

Spending our children's inheritance,
Helen


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

This sounds exactly like me except I only have one dog and need to get my second one and than my third. Can I buy your old ford with the holes in it.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

The old Ford 350 is not for sale. That's how I keep Mr. Graves limited to 3 dogs. 

Helen


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

you know what you are doing. Is that a blue ribbon in the photo?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

william halfrich said:


> you know what you are doing. Is that a blue ribbon in the photo?


I am going to brag for Helen and Don...yes that is a blue ribbon and thats not just any gal sitting next to Don...that is FC AFC Flyways Ruby Begonia...former National Amateur Finalist, and one of the best female dog in the country, Ruby has also been bred and produced some fine young dogs who are just starting to come into their own

But the thing that really stands out about Don and Helen is that Ruby and their other dog Flyways Long Tall Sally are completely AMATEUR trained....they have proven that it can be done,and done at the highest level...Don is also a well respected AA judge and Helen is one of the most supportive and nicest people in the FT game

if you want to get into the FT game , Don and Helen would be a great model to follow in your quest..


Charter Member of the Team Graves Fan Club


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

That is a blue Derby ribbon with hubby and our Sally when she was under 2 yrs. -- breeder-owner-trained and handled to 30 Derby pts. in 2010. Needs only 2 pts. for her AFC. Has her win. Just now getting back into training and trialing after having puppies April 20. We kept a female so hubby can have a youngster coming up to fill her grandma Ruby's spot when she "retires" (which won't be any time soon). Don hopes to qualify Ruby for one more National Amateur before she retires. She's earned her Queen Bee spot on the truck in the #1 crate. 

Granddaughter Maggie (3 mo.) has the #3 spot in the truck and is loving it. They have been on a field trial circuit in the northwest. We debated whether a 10 week old puppy should go. Don decided she just could not miss the experience of traveling, other dogs, trials, and daily training so off she went with Don, grandma and momma. Every day has been a learning experience. She now walks up the ramp as the #3 dog and gets into her crate on the truck. She has learned the pecking order. 

I'm going to have to order Don another "Sleeps with Black Dogs" T-shirt. On this trip Maggie has learned how to scramble up onto the bed in the RV trailer and curl up on a corner of the bed. There is a pecking order on the bed you know! Ruby on one side of Don, Sally on the other, and now Maggie at the foot of the bed on a corner. Nope, no 6-hole dog box. Three is a crowd.

Helen


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

oh sorry Helen I thought that was Ruby in the picture...my bad


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> I am going to brag for Helen and Don...yes that is a blue ribbon and thats not just any gal sitting next to Don...that is FC AFC Flyways Ruby Begonia...former National Amateur Finalist, and one of the best female dog in the country, Ruby has also been bred and produced some fine young dogs who are just starting to come into their own
> 
> But the thing that really stands out about Don and Helen is that Ruby and their other dog Flyways Long Tall Sally are completely AMATEUR trained....they have proven that it can be done,and done at the highest level...Don is also a well respected AA judge and Helen is one of the most supportive and nicest people in the FT game
> 
> ...


Oh my, Bon, thanks for the wonderful words. But that is Sally, not Ruby in the photo. They do look alike which is why Ruby wears a red collar and Sally a blue one so we can tell the difference. Of course, Ruby's "got milk" whiskers she is now growing are a dead giveway as to who the Queen Bee is. 

Don is judging the Tacoma trial this weekend. Amateur (60 I think) and a Qual (22). Qual starts tomorrow and Am on Saturday. Don and his co-judge Toni Boyett are setting it up right now and will probably be at it all day. Going to be a time management challenge for the Q. 3 pros handling 7 out of 22 dogs in the Q and two of the pros have a ton of Open dogs. You can bet that the Q might start off with a double and a land blind to get two Q series out of the way without the delay of having to move from land marks to a land blind. Don and Toni and the Q marshal will be working hard to get the Q done in one day if at all possible. 

Helen

PS - That WAS Sally with a Derby blue ribbon. I changed avatars ... this be Ruby and Don taken when she qualified for her first National Amateur. She has qualified for 3, ran only one and was a Finalist at that one. Don hopes to qualify her one more time. She will be 9 on Oct 31. She's in great physical condition and loves what she does. We hope she makes it to the June 2014 National Am and then retire at 9-1/2. We are so blessed to have her. Right now she is giving Don a jaundiced eye over keeping that puppy Maggie who pesters her grandma.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I assume that the ultimate goal is to handle these dogs yourself... If that is the case you will need more than to just have a good dog, you will have to become a good handler.

Can the dog you have now run SR level Marks and Blinds ? Since you must learn to walk before you can learn to run, perhaps you should start honing your handling skills there.

john


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

I perused the last few pages so i may have missed a similar post to my response to the original poster. William- i am just starting the long slow climb with realistic middle class income and have trained dogs since i was a kid. My plan is to just see what i get and sell started dogs as they dont cut it.... My dad was bird dog FT pro and quite successful, having multiple CH English pointers (in AFTCA there is no bench so a CH = FC, FT pointers are registered with the AFTCA which was first breed registry in the U.S.). He bred and trained the 1979 Quail Futurity winner, a Canadian Major win and two AA major wins, many regional wins. I cant recall a time in my life when i was not enthralled with the prospect of great dogs and competing them. I am willing to keep bringing one young dog along at a time and see what i get. My dad took a different approach.....he bought multiple pups from the best breedings he could find and he studied producers (dam and sire not just sires). It makes it easier to cut out the time delay when you have the choice of watching multiple top bred pups come along. That said, there are a lot of visible, natural traits you can evaluate early in a bird dog; running style, stamina, nose, boldness, etc. can be seen by 6-8 mos. He washed out what did not cut it...with retrievers, it seems harder to eliminate the lab pups than it is pointers....

However, some version of that logic offers chances to cut out the wait game even in the retriever world. You might start making commitments on 2 or 3 jam up litters and bring along a few inside of the next year or two. If you do that, and follow the advice that i repeatedly saw on here about getting a FT successful pro to give you feedback on your pups, your pro or pros should be able to narrow down the field and leave you with something that is more likely to be competetive. It seems to be indicated by some of the very experienced FT folks on this thread that you have to go through 3 or more pups to get one worth really investing in....who says you have to do it with 2-3 yrs between pups...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I have read your post several times and not the others....The first question that comes to mind is....do you understand and do you want to understand what it takes.....What is your motivated....Dogs or money? Knowledge is power.....OK...I have to edit my post.....Games are great, if that is what is the motivator, if not then decide what is more important in your venture....Status or being know in the community for at least trying and being fair about it.....


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

This is a very interesting thread for several reasons. For the most part many field trialers have started in the hunt tests, wanted more, then went to field trial trials. The OP is cold cutting into field trials. This AM with our morning coffee before starting to train one of my training partners had a discussion very close to the one starting this thread. I used myself as an example. I had a 15 month old bitch that we won a 39 dog derby many years ago. The significance of this win there were two future national field champions and several future field champions that placed below my Magic. She ended up making the Derby List, won two Quals just out of the Derby, one a 54 dog Qual at 25 months old. One year later we jammed a Amateur All-Age as a three year old. She continued on with a number of second places in the all-age, retired at 9 1/2 years old without a AFC or FC title because of a lack of a win. Now I asked my partner a kind of rhetorical question why? At that age one of those young Derby dogs had won two Nationals along with some titled FC/AFCs etc.that we had placed ahead of in the long ago derby. I told my partner maybe because I got a very good dog that became a FC/AFC and jumped over her as there was a three year difference in ages.
I spent the same amount of training with her , she was a excellent marker, had a few little holes, water quads were hard for her and she would occasionaly hang up on dragback. She was there on the end though many times , lots of JAMS. He, my partner thought for awhile, never knowing the dog, and said MONEY ! and to a lesser extent politics, dog needs a win to qualify for the national, etc, etc. she was not known as a heavy hitter. I said money, yeah I did get a very good PRO involved with the FC/AFC, I did spend some money, in fact a lot of money. So we came to the conclusion that money or the lack thereof buried MAGIC from getting her field trial titles. So a very good dog, excellent training and money is what is needed to make the field trial game, unless one buys into the game by purchasing a already trained dog knocking on the door of the big titles. You can't collect dogs that don't make the grade either, by two to three years or even sooner one will know through a pro or experienced trainer if you have the makings of a "big dog".
Find good homes for the not make the grade dogs, there are many Derby List dogs that never make the grade as titled FC/AFC dogs. Buy the best pup you can afford (already been said) give it the best training you can afford or the Right Start (no pun here) and see what happens. If you want to field trial though at a pup level DON'T collect em, start over with another. 50 years of ups and downs in the field trial game, more downs then ups, that I have learned.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I agree....Nothing is guarantee, but what if.......what does the crystal ball sez......What can I change if I can do or if I want to do?


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

i find myself in the same boat as the OP. first dog (17 month old CLM) and jumping straight into FT game. its hard as my area doesnt have a lot of people training for FT (more of HRC territory and AKC HT if your willing to travel). i didnt make the decision to train for FT till my pup was almost a year old. so we are behind the game but hope to make 10 or so this fall and 6-7 before he ages out next year.

i often question whether or not i could sell my current dog as a HT dog or gun dog and start over. i keep telling myself i couldnt. im curious how many FT people sold their very first personal dog after they realized they couldnt go any further?me personally i will be thrilled if we could become QAA and probably stop there with him. if mine had been to a pro 11 months of his life i could probably see myself able to sell as the bond wouldnt be as strong but seeing as he's 100% amateur trained and a house dog 22 hours of the day i dont think i could. however if i were to get another pup and kept him outside or sent him to a pro i think it wouldnt be too big a loss just keeping in mind that i dont need to get too attached. 

plus right now he's a huge help. if the 7 month old baby is crying just call the dog over and the crying stops in an instant. usually can even turn it into a laugh with a big ole wet tongue on the cheek


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

You got the right idea....I believe


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Many can't/won't wash dogs that won't cut it. Not saying those that do are bad or evil or anything else, if one's pursuit is FC/AFC, unless one has unlimited funds, one cannot collect dogs that don't cut it, nor is it fair to the dogs to force them to play a game they can't. Often, they are better off being placed in a different type of home and a better match is made. But beware, Mr. Halfrich, buying and selling dogs can take its toll on you. Every one I've sold/placed, even though it went to a more suitable situation and didn't fit here for some reason, has left its mark. Keep in mind your goals, by all means. But don't sell your soul for a title. Be fair to the dogs and yourself, make sure you are having fun and getting everything out of it that you want, not just a title, but the journey itself. At the end of the game, you want to be able to look back and say you enjoyed it, that you made sure the dogs that were in your care got the best chance and best homes that you could manage, that you contributed to the sport as a whole. Just don't get caught up in such a race and competition that you lose sight of what you loved about it in the first place.


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## maliretriever (May 28, 2006)

Rainmaker said:


> Many can't/won't wash dogs that won't cut it. Not saying those that do are bad or evil or anything else, if one's pursuit is FC/AFC, unless one has unlimited funds, one cannot collect dogs that don't cut it, nor is it fair to the dogs to force them to play a game they can't. Often, they are better off being placed in a different type of home and a better match is made. But beware, Mr. Halfrich, buying and selling dogs can take its toll on you. Every one I've sold/placed, even though it went to a more suitable situation and didn't fit here for some reason, has left its mark. Keep in mind your goals, by all means. But don't sell your soul for a title. Be fair to the dogs and yourself, make sure you are having fun and getting everything out of it that you want, not just a title, but the journey itself. At the end of the game, you want to be able to look back and say you enjoyed it, that you made sure the dogs that were in your care got the best chance and best homes that you could manage, that you contributed to the sport as a whole. Just don't get caught up in such a race and competition that you lose sight of what you loved about it in the first place.


Well said!


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

*It's a Great Game*

Seriously, if you enjoy the dogs and like the idea of the competition then don't hesitate to jump in. There are absolutely the greatest people in this game who will embrace you simply because you enjoy what they enjoy. there is a large spectrum of people-newbies , oldtimers, people with one dog who rides in the vehicle to a few who have many dogs and travel with their own jet. Most do this game because they love it and their are various levels of success with which each of us can be content. Their are a few that overdo and are guilty of schadenfreude and there is a rich field of others misfortune every week. their are some who think you have to pay your dues for a long time and resent early success but in general most of the people in the game are happy for anyone who cares enough to put in the hard and arduous work it takes to do this. I know people who get a great dog on the first try but like anything else it can be a matter of luck and then lots of hard work and I'm happy that it happens. I'm hooked but it's not my life. Their are a few that let it take over their life and you can end up unhappy and frustrated. Go in with eyes open, you'll love it.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

I think if you set your goals to high your going to have one disappointment after another. My goal at every trial is to get through one series at a time. Even if I never put an FC or AFC on either one of my dogs I have meet many of my goals and have truly enjoyed the trip.


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## Robbie Coleman (Sep 10, 2009)

You want in the FT game? I have a deal for you...


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

sunnydee said:


> I think if you set your goals to high your going to have one disappointment after another. My goal at every trial is to get through one series at a time. Even if I never put an FC or AFC on either one of my dogs I have meet many of my goals and have truly enjoyed the trip.




Thats one way to look at it but my view is a little different. I too take it one series at a time BUT that is never enough. Thats the addictive part. I finish one series and I want more, I jam I want more, I place I want more. It's never enough. I wanna win. I wanna qualify for a national. I wanna win a national and Im pretty sure IF I ever do that I'll wanna win another one.
So I guess you could say I have both short term goals and long term goals. I have met my short term goals many times and will probably never meet my long term goals but I'll never quit trying


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

Steve Shaver said:


> Thats one way to look at it but my view is a little different. I too take it one series at a time BUT that is never enough. Thats the addictive part. I finish one series and I want more, I jam I want more, I place I want more. It's never enough. I wanna win. I wanna qualify for a national. I wanna win a national and Im pretty sure IF I ever do that I'll wanna win another one.
> So I guess you could say I have both short term goals and long term goals. I have met my short term goals many times and will probably never meet my long term goals but I'll never quit trying


i agree. my short term goals are to pass the first series, then make it to the water, then finish, then place maybe a win who knows. my long term goal while lofty isnt a national with this dog but just a QAA would do me fine.then he can retire to being a full time couch dog and i can get started with the next one and hopefully have the same goals as you.

unless of course something really clicks and he all of a sudden has no problem with a quad with 2 retireds ranging from 150-375 yards and a poison bird blind to follow. in that case i'll be in the same boat as you quicker than i thought!


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

William, you would probably enjoy your dog no matter what level he will be at more if you quit throwing birds all the time and stay on line and learn more about handling and training dogs.Randy


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

wow! a lot said here and I have to thank you. I can not sell or replace my dogs. Its not in me. I will be limited for that reason. The dog is my companion and has given me all he has. Is always happy to see old dad and I will give back to him as well as long as he is on earth. Softy I guess.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

william halfrich said:


> wow! a lot said here and I have to thank you. I can not sell or replace my dogs. Its not in me. I will be limited for that reason. The dog is my companion and has given me all he has. Is always happy to see old dad and I will give back to him as well as long as he is on earth. Softy I guess.


Well, I don't know if if that makes you a softy or not, but it sure gives us something icommon. These dogs give us way more than we give them


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## Dwestall (Aug 30, 2011)

william halfrich said:


> wow! a lot said here and I have to thank you. I can not sell or replace my dogs. Its not in me. I will be limited for that reason. The dog is my companion and has given me all he has. Is always happy to see old dad and I will give back to him as well as long as he is on earth.* Softy I guess*.





mjh345 said:


> Well, I don't know if if that makes you a softy or not, but it sure gives us something icommon. *These dogs give us way more than we give them*


Not a softy just loyal....

Pretty Much


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