# Why I find RTF less and less interesting



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

RTF used to be a resource that I reviewed several times a day. Not so anymore. Why?

People who attended a great meeting of the minds - Aycock, Farmer, and Lardy - are unable to share even a few tidbits about the recent seminar. 
For example, could people who attended tell us what their three biggest takeaways from the seminar were? No, instead we get 

- "Not enough room to cover what happened"
- "My head is about to burst"
- "The DVD will be first class ..."

Great opportunity to foster discussion and we get nothing.

Instead 
There is a thread three pages long about Judges' lunches and dinners
There is a thread eleven pages long where the OP wails constantly about his shortcomings in teaching a retired mark to his dog and people continue to feed his efforts for public sympathy

And
People no longer post (yes, there are exceptions), callbacks and placements from field trials

Not much here I find of interest anymore. Really too bad.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

#1 X2

Those who do, do. Those who do not expound on it. Reserve comments to those you deem "educable" and PM. Everybody is not equal just like our dogs.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Discussing the short bird training that was briefly shown in one of Pat's FB video's would surely be interesting....


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Daren Galloway said:


> Discussing the short bird training that was briefly shown in one of Pat's FB video's would surely be interesting....


​I agree. But, we get nothing ....


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

I replied to something yesterday.... It was my first post in almost a year!!!! Like you use to check this site/be involved almost everyday. Now if I really have some free time at work I might stop by real quick and see what it the topic today. And never find much to get involved in..


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Ted. I agree. The quality of threads and comments have degraded over the years. Used to be fun too. Banter can be good. I hope to run under you some day.

Thank you,

Jeff


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Yep, it's unfortunate that such a good tool is becoming rusty from lack of use.

Occasional lurker reguards.


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## JMitchell (Dec 28, 2012)

I think the forum should be broken in smaller sections. Do dog health, puppy, hunt test, field trial, breeding sections. Then you pros don't have to see the million threads of I got a new puppy... I think the pros should have a section where only they can post but amateurs could follow but not post. There you could have the advanced stuff without somebody saying this is my first dog and you should....


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

ya I will have to agree with Ted as well,i check in here to on a daily bases and finding it less and less informative,i came into retriever training like a babe in the woods some 14 years back and have to admit had some pretty silly ideas and views of things,enuf said there :/

I don't really know how to put this in words but at one time being a contributor to some of the nonsense and now with some more understanding can see why the students and mentors of the game are reluctant to get envolved

it has nothing to do with egos , who is smarter or better or any chit like that but exchanges of ideas and sound practices and principles

oh I don't what im trying to say just sad to see it declining


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Guthries Retriever Talk was great for those kind of discussions, as was RTF.

The past is gone, unlikely to ever return.

Tom


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

What did you think about the Brasseaux/Burns Seminar, Ted? PM me if you want.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I thought it was great. I have been to a number of Burns seminars - Colorado, Tennessee, and most recently in Louisiana. I like them because Pat understands both sides of the spectrum - Carr to Lardy - and is articulate in discussing the differences. I also like them because my dog gets a lot of work as Pat keeps the number of participants down. I enjoyed the seminar with Ryan because: 

1. I like Ryan, his dogs have gotten better over the years (my observation as a judge) - which is always a good sign, and I appreciated his passion for the dogs and the participants.
2. Great grounds
3. Love the people out there

If Pat/Ryan do another seminar next year, I will probably be there


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

twall said:


> The past is gone, unlikely to ever return.
> 
> Tom


The sad thing is, it doesn't have to be that way. 

Just think of the conversation that would be generated if some of the Burns/Farmer/Lardy participants would simply post on the three of the things that they thought were most significant at the seminar. Just three.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> RTF used to be a resource that I reviewed several times a day. Not so anymore. Why?
> 
> People who attended a great meeting of the minds - Aycock, Farmer, and Lardy - are unable to share even a few tidbits about the recent seminar.
> For example, could people who attended tell us what their three biggest takeaways from the seminar were? No, instead we get
> ...


Since the items in red were clearly directed at my posts about the seminar, I will attempt to explain (and btw I agree with you about the resource, but I think the dearth of information and real time news is more due to other social media). I am the proverbial turd in the punchbowl with my hunt test Chesapeakes I've only recently attempted to turn into qualifying level dogs. When it comes to discussing advanced concepts for all age and national caliber work, I feel more comfortable listening than contributing. Although I had a few questions at the seminar, I didn't ask them because the focus was clearly at a level I'm nowhere near. I did, however, discuss my questions with other attendees I knew, and will add that I certainly took away several concepts from there that are very applicable to where I am with my own dogs.

One was basics, and a comment from Farmer that if you have to take a stick and use your ecollar at the line to keep your dog steady (sitting, not crouching with butt in air, pattering feet) and/or quiet, you aren't ready to run a trial. I think this is applicable to any level, not just all age. Coming from hunt tests, I see behavior at the line in trials, not just the minor but all age stakes, that would get you tossed in hunt tests, even at the senior level. Farmer also made the comment that w/the quality of dog work today he didn't understand why more judges didn't take basic obedience into consideration and placings, i.e. if the 2nd and 3rd placed dogs have identical work, place the one with better line manners higher.

Another demonstration was a marking drill Lardy calls a 10-step to help dogs get comfortable hunting, especially on short birds. I paid particular attention to this, as I have one young female who tends to go into stupid hunt mode and engages her legs and speed, not her brain sometimes, especially if she lacks confidence (usually because she's overfaced for her level of training). I'm not a techie so I can't do a diagram, but basically for the 10-step drill, he set up 2 holding blinds, fairly short distances, like maybe 75 to 100 yards, for these marks. For this demo, he also set up another mark that was uphill and maybe 150 yards. These were all run as singles, the longest first. That mark was just a regular mark; the gun did not retire. After the dog picked it up, he had the birdboy in the 100 yd. station step out 10 paces, and throw this one downhill and slightly angled back. Then the birdboy walked back to the holding blind and retired before the handler sent the dog. Same routine with the closer mark (both, run as singles). Most dogs had pretty substantial hunts even though these were singles, and Lardy said that was the intent, and that this is a good drill to get the dogs comfortable staying in the area to hunt up a short fall. Some pretty good dogs had big hunts on both these singles, but they all stayed in the area, none of them tried to go long, and Lardy pointed that out as the intended result; the drill works for getting a dog to hunt in a close-in area; that it gives them confidence to not abandon the hunt and go long because they knew the mark was nearby having just seen it thrown as a single.

The third thing I took away is that when there are NASCAR races in Bristol, prices on everything, especially accommodations, will skyrocket. Pat's wife Robin had reserved a block of rooms for attendees, but I forgot about the NASCAR races and didn't sign up in time, and I just refused to pay $250/night for some fleabag motel in the slums. I did a little research of alternative housing online and for $40 a night I found a really cool cabin 20 miles away.







ake. Here is a photo of it. 

If anyone is interested, click HERE for some other photos I took while there on my Hope Springs Facebook page (it's public, so you should be able to see them even if you aren't on Facebook). Weather wasn't great for taking photos, so I didn't take many.

Hope that helps. I will now return to limiting my input to topics like puppy raising and Chesapeakes :bday:


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Julie 

1. Thanks for the information. I found it very interesting. 
2. I don't think you have to have All Age dogs - or pelts - to say "Wow, I found this really thought provoking and something that I want to incorporate into my training"
3. I think if more folks chimed in -without a specific agenda in mind - we could get this thing moving again

Ted


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## joeyrhoades (Feb 23, 2015)

Ted,

I know some of that was projected at me. 

I posted that the wealth of information was overwhelming, but that is me. I am very new to retriever training. I want to learn as much as I can and just happen to see this at the right time and could not pass it up. 

I came home and had to leave the next morning to go out of town for work. I have not had a chance to really give you an opinion. I took a lot of notes and I can go back an really get into this discussion when I get back home. 

Off the top of my head, what stuck out to me the most was:

1. SIT. I was shocked and how many of these dogs that moved at the line. It was not just me and my dog that has this issue. It is a constant issue that you need to stay on top of and not let the standard slip. 

2. Follow one program. Don't program hop and think that you can mix and match and know "the best way". Stick it out and really study the program and learn it. 

3. Communication. This is key with your dog. You need to be on the same page. Practice line manner she and focus on getting the dog to understand what you want and that they understand your movements. 

4. A lot of talk about head swinging. I will have to look at my notes and get more information about what they said. 

5. Transition. This is a key stage in your dogs learning. Don't rush it and make sure that you throughly teach a concept before you start enforcing it. Your dog has to understand what you want before you can correct for bad behavior. 

6. Basics. A lot of problems that may creep up later are from rushing through the basics. Handling basics. Sit basics. 

This is what I could think of off the top of my head. I will be back home Friday and can take some more time to really discuss more. 

Sorry for the airheaded response in the original post. 

Joey


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I just edited my post to add some photos I took there you might like to see and Pat has some on his page, too. I took pages of notes; there wasn't a formal agenda, things just sort of evolved from what the dogs/handlers did and what they (Farmer, Lardy and Burns) felt was important to go over. My notes are elsewhere, I'm still digesting and waiting for things to dry up here so I can try some new stuff. What I posted above are the things that most stuck in my mind.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

IMO the demise of discussion on RTF is because of the following..and not necessarily in order

1. people looking for "real help" are bludgeoned by the internet bullies with the underlying attitude of " ..if you're not doing it the way of __________ (insert guru of choice) , you're not doing it right

2. many of the people looking for "help" don't really want help, they just want validation that the method they are using is correct, and they continue to go down the same path they were headed and end up with a dog that isn't what they wanted

3. many if not most on here don't train there own dogs and are just repeating ideology from their "training bible of choice"..its what we used to call in the golf business, 20 something handicappers giving swing advice like a PGA certified pro

4. there were many former contributors that had some insightful thoughts and ideas..they are either no longer in the game or tired of giving good advice only to see it ignored or shouted down by the RTF internet bullies...to quote one of Ted S. favorite sayings "....who needs the headache.."

and to bring it to current terms...events like the Lardy-Farmer seminar were attended by people who have already had some success in the game(s) and although it might have enhanced their already deep knowledge of training..the people that really needed that seminar were unable or chose not to attend, so discussing the events of the seminar would be similar to a doctor trying to discuss a new medical procedure that they learned to a first year college freshman...they would be all ears but the content is way beyond what their current level of comprehension is at...


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

I am still a newbie and have only been on this forum for two years and my dog is not quite 2 years old. I comment or have questions from time to time but I NEVER give training advice. I wish more newbies would do the same. I am not trying to discourage newbie's from posting but when they post a thread on Monday and it's titled something like "I have my first puppy, what now?" and then the next day they are commenting on another post and giving FF advice...it's always a little surprising/concerning. Point being, it's hard to know "who to take advice from." 

Over the last two years I have come to know which members advice I pay attention to (Ted, you would be one of them) and which members advice I might ignore. But a newbie posting for their first time has no idea, they probably think everyone on this forum knows how to train dogs!! They don't know that the person replying to them got their first puppy 3 weeks ago but they still take that person's advice as knowledgeable. But sometimes it is still hard to know who to take advice from in some cases. (as all internet forums are) That is why I personally lean on a pro in my area but that is a different topic. 

So, my point is, I hope the experienced and knowledgeable pros and amateurs continue to post and give training advice and general dog experiences when warranted. Some of us are reading and paying attention to what you have to say (and trying to weed out the rest...)


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## Scott Krueger (Jan 25, 2008)

can you help me name my dog please? how can we fix the master entries? these are the only threads i find interesting, thank goodness there are plenty to read....


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I think one of those short post was mine. Ted is correct. We need to share more. I weed thru and read the kind of posts that have some content like the recent blind corridor one and skip alot of the rest. My apologies for my short response as I really didn't have the time at the time. 
So my takeaway was a lot like Joey's. Line manners were discussed a lot. There was a lot of fun and joking(some not so joking) between Danny and Mike. The funny thing was when they didn't agree on some stuff is was because of terminology or just the approach but in the end they did the same things. Not all but most. Not shooting flyer as last bird down in training hit me because when I shoot flyers that's what we do. Also there was way more handling on marks than I'm used to and they did state that fact at the end. Having gunner help VS handling was discussed and well as recalls. One statement really stood out to me was when Danny told a handler after really working to get the dog looking in the right spot "ok you did your job now the dog needs to do his". I'm looking forward to the DVd because I have probably forgot half of what went on already.


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## Barry Ireland (Feb 18, 2005)

I for one am a Amateurs Amateur. Love the game but have not had much success, so I am always looking for info to help me. I train alone 99% of the time. I do not ask questions here because as stated earlier the powers to be will eat you up with sarcasm if not worded correctly or they use a different approach. I find this to be the case with any subject discussed and it always seems to be the same faithful respondents. You can go on Entry Express and find that these people although wanting to make you feel they know it all have not had much success in the game either. The truly knowledgable trainers seem to not post and I can understand why. Instead of the casual converstion of why this did or did not work it becomes a war of words and attempts to knock the other down. I spend a lot of time trying to find online videos and use you tube and Hillmans info quite a bit. Would love to hear more about the Farmer/Lardy seminar as I am sure there was a lot of great info from 2 of the best. I recently watched part of the Open at Busch Wildlife and had the pleasure of spending a few hours with Alex Washburns husband Pete and another older gentleman who I wish I could remember his name. Both were very friendly and glad to share their insights as to what they saw going on. Made me feel good and both were very responsive to my questions and they even asked a few of me.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Dave Burton said:


> I think one of those short post was mine. Ted is correct. We need to share more. I weed thru and read the kind of posts that have some content like the recent blind corridor one and skip alot of the rest. My apologies for my short response as I really didn't have the time at the time.
> So my takeaway was a lot like Joey's. Line manners were discussed a lot. There was a lot of fun and joking(some not so joking) between Danny and Mike. The funny thing was when they didn't agree on some stuff is was because of terminology or just the approach but in the end they did the same things. Not all but most. Not shooting flyer as last bird down in training hit me because when I shoot flyers that's what we do. Also there was way more handling on marks than I'm used to and they did state that fact at the end. Having gunner help VS handling was discussed and well as recalls. One statement really stood out to me was when Danny told a handler after really working to get the dog looking in the right spot "ok you did your job now the dog needs to do his". I'm looking forward to the DVd because I have probably forgot half of what went on already.


Dave

I think it would be very interesting if you picked one of the following topics that you mentioned 

For example
- Help v. Handling v. Recall
- Headswinging corrections, drills

And elaborated on it in more detail

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

joeyrhoades said:


> 1. SIT. I was shocked and how many of these dogs that moved at the line. It was not just me and my dog that has this issue. It is a constant issue that you need to stay on top of and not let the standard slip.
> 
> 2. Follow one program. Don't program hop and think that you can mix and match and know "the best way". Stick it out and really study the program and learn it.
> 
> ...


Joey 

I think any of these topics would be great to elaborate on.

For example, I know Danny's position on sit. Would be interested in knowing Mike's. And some here would want to know both. 

I am from the Carr/Aycock/Farmer school - sit means sit.

But, I know that there are some very good trainers who do not share that philosophy

Ted


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Every hobby under the sun has the same message boards. The dynamics are pretty much them same. One faction vs the other, keyboard cowboys, know-it-alls, etc.

At the end of the day THE ONLY WAY TO ADVANCE AND LEARN IS TO "DO". You can't learn to fight by watching videos any more than you can train dogs. Can you get some cerebral knowlege and understanding of some basics? Sure you can. But if you really want to learn to swim, jump in the water (preferably in the shallow end).

One commonality is that for the most part, the people that really know how to fight, know how to handle, etc, are not the ones feeling compelled to write about it. Whether they are too busy "doing" or maybe don't feel the need to be validated, whatever. They just go out and let their actions do the talking. People that are smart, seek these people out and absorb absorb aborb.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm. It's is what it is not bad for a free resource. If people find most of the content uninteresting or not to their liking, boring they always have the option of starting their own threads; and solving that problem. Just Saying .


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Joey
> 
> I think any of these topics would be great to elaborate on.
> 
> ...


There was a considerable discussion about whether a dog who is cheating the water on a mark should be handled into the water or recalled and sent again. From years of exposure I know the answer from one side but not the other and also that one size does not fit all, different type dog, different situation (first or last bird retrieved), the tendency of the individual dog (known water cheater?). Add to the problem not every dog is approached in the same way every time. In January 2016 Pat left me with some very good advice about one particular dog and I have largely followed that approach knowing that there would be no ambiguous message to the dog. Pat is very strict on line like Rex, Danny, and Judy, and more forgiving in the field like Mike. There is much to be learned even for someone like me who is into year 48 of retriever training.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> There was a considerable discussion about whether a dog who is cheating the water on a mark should be handled into the water or recalled and sent again. From years of exposure I know the answer from one side but not the other and also that one size does not fit all, different type dog, different situation (first or last bird retrieved), the tendency of the individual dog (known water cheater?). Add to the problem not every dog is approached in the same way every time. In January 2016 Pat left me with some very good advice about one particular dog and I have largely followed that approach knowing that there would be no ambiguous message to the dog. Pat is very strict on line like Rex, Danny and Judy and more forgiving in the field like Mike. There is much to be learned even for someone like me who is into year 48 of retriever training.


I think if you are a good student, there is always something new to be learned. Which is why I am interested in hearing more about the seminar. I was signed up to attend. Had flight booked. But work got in the way


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ed, Did the next to last sentence have the right punctuation? I'm not so good at punctuation. Being an engineer and from Texas A&M. I read it to mean. Pat is very strict on the line like Rex. Danny and Judy are more forgiving in the field like Mike. Did I get it right? Not being critical, just trying to understand.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Ed, Did the next to last sentence have the right punctuation? I'm not so good at punctuation. Being an engineer and from Texas A&M. I read it to mean. Pat is very strict on the line like Rex. Danny and Judy are more forgiving in the field like Mike. Did I get it right? Not being critical, just trying to understand.


Pat is like Rex, Danny, and Judy on line. In the field he is more like Mike.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Lardy did say after being called out by Farmer on the line manners, (and he may have been talking about a specific dog or several he has or had) that often if you fix one problem (like scooting or feet pumping) that another will get worse, like noise. But clearly Lardy is more forgiving than Farmer of those dogs that race to the line without the handler and once there, are fidgety, whining, feet pumping, scooting forward when the handler is trying to get them to focus, etc.

Burns also announced at the end of the symposium that he thought it was the biggest one of its kind ever held, and that it had filled up within a day of being announced. The logistics of finding spots to park that many vehicles so they wouldn't get stuck and/or tear up the farm roads and fields, ferrying people from the parking areas to where the tents were, (it rained a lot and was muddy) and moving that many people and tents and equipment around m were amazing, they had an army of volunteers.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ed, Thank you.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Barry Ireland said:


> I for one am a Amateurs Amateur. Love the game but have not had much success, so I am always looking for info to help me. I train alone 99% of the time. I do not ask questions here because as stated earlier *the powers to be will eat you up with sarcasm if not worded correctly *or they use a different approach. I find this to be the case with any subject discussed and it always seems to be the same faithful respondents. You can go on Entry Express and find that these people although *wanting to make you feel they know it all have not had much success in the game either.* The truly knowledgable trainers seem to not post and I can understand why. Instead of the casual converstion of why this did or did not work it becomes a war of words and attempts to knock the other down. I spend a lot of time trying to find online videos and use you tube and Hillmans info quite a bit. Would love to hear more about the Farmer/Lardy seminar as I am sure there was a lot of great info from 2 of the best. I recently watched part of the Open at Busch Wildlife and had the pleasure of spending a few hours with Alex Washburns husband Pete and another older gentleman who I wish I could remember his name. Both were very friendly and glad to share their insights as to what they saw going on. Made me feel good and both were very responsive to my questions and they even asked a few of me.


Wish there was a "like" button here, nice post. I train 99% of the time alone as well. I am mainly a hunter but love the dogs and the game. Those that are the first to throw stones seem to be those wrting a check not training their own dogs. I too had limited success however it is my success and failure as I do the training and the handling. To me it's the journey with my dog. We succeed or fail as a team. 

I try to use "I" statements to not offend the powers that be but had still had the stones thrown my way. Ted appreciate your insight on things you offer sound advice.

RTF is a great tool for us all if the egos and drama were left out of it.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

This past Saturday I went to a local pro seminar as a dog handler team and had a great time. I have been to one other seminar by Evan Graham and it was ok. 
I wish that we could get some of the big names to come to DFW or closeby for a seminar.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> Lardy did say after being called out by Farmer on the line manners, (and he may have been talking about a specific dog or several he has or had) that often if you fix one problem (like scooting or feet pumping) that another will get worse, like noise. But clearly Lardy is more forgiving than Farmer of those dogs that race to the line without the handler and once there, are fidgety, whining, feet pumping, scooting forward when the handler is trying to get them to focus, etc.
> .



I have never understood how an average handler could manage a dog that did not have a rock solid sit on line.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Ted Shih said:


> I have never understood how an average handler could manage a dog that did not have a rock solid sit on line.


Ted asking for input. I have some pretty high drive dogs. Line manners is and has been an issue. Dog solid as a rock training, solid and will not break with 10 snowgeese dropping and 20 shots fired and another dog breaking yet will not break, steady. Now at a field trial where marks are out a ways good, but hunt test just seem to jack him up way more then hunting as I described. I realize training with others can help, but he will not break at any test, but his feet do getting happy at HT. 

Tried everything, he usually will smack a HT but what else can one do with this issue that only presents itself at a HT with the short marks?

Thanks for any input. If others have had this issue chime in please.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I have never understood how an average handler could manage a dog that did not have a rock solid sit on line.


I have seen average handlers compete and win on a regular basis with dogs that would drive you and I crazy. These dogs are so talented and smart enough, they seem to manage the handler rather than the other way around.


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

Julie R. said:


> Another demonstration was a marking drill Lardy calls a 10-step to help dogs get comfortable hunting, especially on short birds. I paid particular attention to this, as I have one young female who tends to go into stupid hunt mode and engages her legs and speed, not her brain sometimes, especially if she lacks confidence (usually because she's overfaced for her level of training). I'm not a techie so I can't do a diagram, but basically for the 10-step drill, he set up 2 holding blinds, fairly short distances, like maybe 75 to 100 yards, for these marks. For this demo, he also set up another mark that was uphill and maybe 150 yards. These were all run as singles, the longest first. That mark was just a regular mark; the gun did not retire. After the dog picked it up, he had the birdboy in the 100 yd. station step out 10 paces, and throw this one downhill and slightly angled back. Then the birdboy walked back to the holding blind and retired before the handler sent the dog. Same routine with the closer mark (both, run as singles). Most dogs had pretty substantial hunts even though these were singles, and Lardy said that was the intent, and that this is a good drill to get the dogs comfortable staying in the area to hunt up a short fall. Some pretty good dogs had big hunts on both these singles, but they all stayed in the area, none of them tried to go long, and Lardy pointed that out as the intended result; the drill works for getting a dog to hunt in a close-in area; that it gives them confidence to not abandon the hunt and go long because they knew the mark was nearby having just seen it thrown as a single.


I have a dog who is failing at short birds. If somebody could draw a diagram of this drill that would be great. Thank you for telling us about it, Julie.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Mike W. said:


> Every hobby under the sun has the same message boards. The dynamics are pretty much them same. One faction vs the other, keyboard cowboys, know-it-alls, etc.
> 
> At the end of the day THE ONLY WAY TO ADVANCE AND LEARN IS TO "DO". You can't learn to fight by watching videos any more than you can train dogs. Can you get some cerebral knowlege and understanding of some basics? Sure you can. But if you really want to learn to swim, jump in the water (preferably in the shallow end).
> 
> One commonality is that for the most part, the people that really know how to fight, know how to handle, etc, are not the ones feeling compelled to write about it. Whether they are too busy "doing" or maybe don't feel the need to be validated, whatever. They just go out and let their actions do the talking. People that are smart, seek these people out and absorb absorb aborb.




Like,!!!!!

,


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Ted asking for input. I have some pretty high drive dogs. Line manners is and has been an issue. Dog solid as a rock training, solid and will not break with 10 snowgeese dropping and 20 shots fired and another dog breaking yet will not break, steady. Now at a field trial where marks are out a ways good, but hunt test just seem to jack him up way more then hunting as I described. I realize training with others can help, but he will not break at any test, but his feet do getting happy at HT.
> 
> Tried everything, he usually will smack a HT but what else can one do with this issue that only presents itself at a HT with the short marks?
> 
> Thanks for any input. If others have had this issue chime in please.


If what I saw is your definition of "rock solid" your standard isn't high enough.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Ted asking for input. I have some pretty high drive dogs. Line manners is and has been an issue. Dog solid as a rock training, solid and will not break with 10 snowgeese dropping and 20 shots fired and another dog breaking yet will not break, steady. Now at a field trial where marks are out a ways good, but hunt test just seem to jack him up way more then hunting as I described. I realize training with others can help, but he will not break at any test, but his feet do getting happy at HT.
> 
> Tried everything, he usually will smack a HT but what else can one do with this issue that only presents itself at a HT with the short marks?
> 
> Thanks for any input. If others have had this issue chime in please.


Poor OB at the line, on marks, and at the end of a blind ( ring a bell)?? You should know hunting is different, could be the strap that is wrapped around there neck in training and while hunting but not allowed on the weekends.. Your standard isn't high enough..


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Ted asking for input. I have some pretty high drive dogs. Line manners is and has been an issue. Dog solid as a rock training, solid and will not break with 10 snowgeese dropping and 20 shots fired and another dog breaking yet will not break, steady. Now at a field trial where marks are out a ways good, but hunt test just seem to jack him up way more then hunting as I described. I realize training with others can help, but he will not break at any test, but his feet do getting happy at HT.


Obviously, it is best not to let a problem get started. If you have a problem, I would insist on a high obedience standard. That is, sit before you go out the door. Sit, before you get out of the truck. Sit, sit, sit. Make it part of the routine. Hard to know without seeing it. But, you might have to live with a lower standard for sit, too


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## ColoAngler (Mar 20, 2006)

I think you are spot on ... with one spot. I suggest your comment about golfers would insinuate that unless you are a pro-trainer with years of experience, your comments are regulated to being nothing more than a lurker. Occasionally, those without a pedigree might have something to add to the conversation. If lest we not contribute, then we are not part of the conversation. I would ask respectfully, those of us without a pedigree, yet with some valid contribution be greeted with some value of input or at the very least a non-bullied correction. No one without maleficence should be corrected with a high-5.

Humbly submitted,

A man with a second dog, whose first great retriever was a hellova retriever despite his owners imperfections.



BonMallari said:


> IMO the demise of discussion on RTF is because of the following..and not necessarily in order
> 
> 1. people looking for "real help" are bludgeoned by the internet bullies with the underlying attitude of " ..if you're not doing it the way of __________ (insert guru of choice) , you're not doing it right
> 
> ...


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Daren Galloway said:


> If what I saw is your definition of "rock solid" your standard isn't high enough.


If you read the posts I said hunting and you do not hunt your dog. Also I have run one training set of marks with you Daren we were too busy watching you pound the hell out of your dog to get another set in.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> If you read the posts I said hunting and you do not hunt your dog. Also I have run one training set of marks with you Daren we were too busy watching you pound the hell out of your dog to get another set in.


First of all, yes I do hunt my dog, and you did say training, reread your own post. 
Second, since you didn't answer my question I'll assume that is how the dog is, and is the very reason he isn't steady at a test, because you don't make him be steady in training. (Sorry I know you don't want to actually hear what you're doing wrong, cause they're hunting dogs first)
Third, we got 3 setups in that day, and still had daylight left, sorry I took up your time training my dog, you took up mine, not training yours..


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

And here we go.🙁


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

best sorted out in pms


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

2tall said:


> And here we go.


This is one major reason I believe RTF is becoming less interesting, no one wants to hear the truth, they want to justify every short coming their dog has with an excuse. He's not steady on the mat, but he's a hell of a hunting dog so I don't care. Then why would anyone ever give you advice again? And there is where the info on here starts to disappear.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

When a discussion turns into a urination contest there's no information flowing.  I think I understand what was mentioned about the drill to encourage tight hunting of a mark. BUT does anyone else that was there or knowledgeable of this drill care to describe it further? Harry


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

its all part of the learning curve,we either learn to accept constructive advice and sift through the information and improve over time or like some determine things are good enuff , no reason to do that and maybe due to lack of success become bitter about the game.but I don't know everyones situation,just mine,and am constantly reminded now to stick to taking my own inventory


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## quackaddict2 (Jan 8, 2006)

HarryWilliams said:


> When a discussion turns into a urination contest there's no information flowing.  I think I understand what was mentioned about the drill to encourage tight hunting of a mark. BUT does anyone else that was there or knowledgeable of this drill care to describe it further? Harry


ya would like to see a diagram like dennis used to draw up in his magazine,our group from time to time will run a drill to work on the short bird and another angle at it would be nice to try


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

I for one miss the thread Ted did about placing marks. I learned a lot on those threads about how to place marks and why many dogs are likely to be drawn to an area.
Like others have said I do not post nearly as frequently as previously.


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## Keith S. (May 6, 2005)

NateB said:


> I for one miss the thread Ted did about placing marks. I learned a lot on those threads about how to place marks and why many dogs are likely to be drawn to an area.
> Like others have said I do not post nearly as frequently as previously.


Those were some of the best threads on this board.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

*Ontario 10 Step*

I can elaborate on the 10 step a bit. About 6-8 years ago, I started to do a marking procedure with short birds where the gunner threw a bird and then walked back to a holding blind. I didn't care if the dog watched the gunner retire. Then I would work on communication as if it was a short retired memory bird. In other words you practice getting the dog to focus back on the bird with "easy" and a soft send. Mike saw this and labelled it "the Ontario 10 Step". Although, it was often much more like 20 steps!

We learned that another result was that dogs developed good solid persistent hunts and this was another reason to do.

I wasn't at the Lardy/Farmer workshop so I can't draw the exact set-up. However, as we have learned with other marking and blind set-ups incorporating a 2-peat is beneficial: i. e. repeat the concept in the set-up on different retrieves. The configuration is not magic except you start with a longer go-bird single and then do a medium and a short 10 step (or short and medium) as singles. You start off wider and as the dog advances you can tighten up the marks. I prefer the long go-bird to be on the outside so you are not running over top of a shorter check-down mark.

Hope this helps.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Dennis is the 10 step in either one of you DVDs? Or accompanying books?


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

I have subscribed to RTF since it was a listserv in the 1990's and agree with Ted that is has become less interesting over the last few years. My observation is the loss of interest goes beyond training discussions. The "Old RTF" was the center of the retriever community. The early RTF was NAHRA oriented. After Retriever Central was run into the ground by the poor management of the Retriever Field Trial News, many of the subscribers from AKC hunt tests and trials migrated to RTF.

RTF became an online family. It was the place to find up to the minute news affecting retriever events, retriever people and retrievers themselves. There was a lot of humor as well as sadness. We followed the battle of Uncle Jerry's bride's battle with cancer and shortly after her passing, Jerry's own losing battle. Chris A. kept us up to date on his dog's tragic boating accident and his recovery to successfully run hunt tests with three legs. There was even a eastern philosopher that opined on the tao of retriever training.

The forum used to be a lot edgier. Chris often let things get worked up before stepping in. There were a lot more temporary and permanent suspensions but it made for more interesting reading. (Melanie, do still look at this site ?) Shane kept the humor alive with his different views and hunt test attire. Uncle Jerry also kept us laughing. His description of indirect pressure is still a classic.

When RTF members started reporting from the National Open and National Am because of the totally inadequate coverage by the Retriever News who wanted to offend no one, so would not actually describe the work of the dogs...not even the handles. RTF through FOM and her on site contacts became our source for news.

In the old days it was much worse on a novice handler that gave advice on training. There is a lot of revisionist history in the previous posts.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Todd S, You did ask for help/comments. I thought Darren's comment about uping your standard was constructive. 
I have posted a bunch on here and asked for and received plenty of comments. Most were constructive and some were not. If you are going to ask for help you have to be willing to accept all advice. Most you adopt and some it is best to just ignore and move on. 
My current dog, Rowdy, is very compliant. He probably only gets pressure once a month or so. It is generally for toe tapping and then it stops. The biggest compliment I ever received was from a judge who said "Rowdy is a real team player". He got there with a bunch of the help I received here.

I wasn't there for the pounding. But I have had dogs that required pretty strict sticking on almost a daily basis to maintain my standard. I have been around some A list pros that would want to make the faint of heart cringe. But it was necessary.
Roy Gonia told me "The pro will never have to make an excuse for a dogs poor performance because the owner will have one"
Good luck with your dog.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

NateB said:


> I for one miss the thread Ted did about placing marks. I learned a lot on those threads about how to place marks and why many dogs are likely to be drawn to an area.
> Like others have said I do not post nearly as frequently as previously.


Ask & you might receive. He has been good in the past @ that kinda stuff if he's not swamped with work.


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## jwbIII (Jan 24, 2013)

Is anyone willing to diagram the 10 step drill?


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

This is exactly how it was done at the workshop. single shot out of the test basically. Two 10 step marks, one short and thrown to the left and a little longer one kind of hip pocket thrown to the right. The dog that was ran on it to demonstrate it showed exactly what it does. 



RetrieversONLINE said:


> I can elaborate on the 10 step a bit. About 6-8 years ago, I started to do a marking procedure with short birds where the gunner threw a bird and then walked back to a holding blind. I didn't care if the dog watched the gunner retire. Then I would work on communication as if it was a short retired memory bird. In other words you practice getting the dog to focus back on the bird with "easy" and a soft send. Mike saw this and labelled it "the Ontario 10 Step". Although, it was often much more like 20 steps!
> 
> We learned that another result was that dogs developed good solid persistent hunts and this was another reason to do.
> 
> ...


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Did a little research on short bird marking. In Volume III of Mike Lardy's compilation of RJ articles, there is an article titled "Ten Tips to Improve Short Bird Marking" with a diagram. And then the next article Marking Drills. The marking drills article includes four diagramsouble Cross, Fleeing Guns, Diamond Five and Eraser 5. These drills are done as singles at medium distances: include long, medium and short marks run in various sequences.

My recommendation is to buy this volume for about $30.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Dennis is the 10 step in either one of you DVDs? Or accompanying books?


Wayne:

No, you need a helper for the 10 step so not in my Training Alone DVD and the 25 Essential Drills is about handling. I haven't done a marking DVD.

I have written about the Ontario 10 step in past Retrievers ONLINE issues. I am preparing 3 "Best of ONLINE" Collections with about 25 marking articles in total. Short Bird tips and the 10 step are in those. 

There is one Marking Collection currently available on Favourite Set-ups. It includes a two short bird marking drill that does not include the 10 steps but works on similar skills (www.retrieversonline.com).

I'll let all know when I get the new Marking articles up on my Retrievers ONLINE Facebook page.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Russ said:


> I have subscribed to RTF since it was a listserv in the 1990's and agree with Ted that is has become less interesting over the last few years. My observation is the loss of interest goes beyond training discussions. The "Old RTF" was the center of the retriever community. The early RTF was NAHRA oriented. After Retriever Central was run into the ground by the poor management of the Retriever Field Trial News, many of the subscribers from AKC hunt tests and trials migrated to RTF.
> 
> RTF became an online family. It was the place to find up to the minute news affecting retriever events, retriever people and retrievers themselves. There was a lot of humor as well as sadness. We followed the battle of Uncle Jerry's bride's battle with cancer and shortly after her passing, Jerry's own losing battle. Chris A. kept us up to date on his dog's tragic boating accident and his recovery to successfully run hunt tests with three legs. There was even a eastern philosopher that opined on the tao of retriever training.
> 
> ...


.
You're right Russ. RTF was most interesting for several years after WRC shut down. Shame that years of good stuff were lost after the forum software swap mishap.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I look forward to it Dennis. 10-20 steps is approximately 8-17 yards. That is close! Lardy says close is relative to the other marks.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

NateB said:


> I for one miss the thread Ted did about placing marks. I learned a lot on those threads about how to place marks and why many dogs are likely to be drawn to an area.
> Like others have said I do not post nearly as frequently as previously.


Get me photos of 5 fields


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## mlardy (Nov 2, 2007)

An Ontario ten step (originated by Dennis Voigt) is a single mark, thrown by a gun that will utlimately retire at least ten steps away into a usually prominent holding blind. The dog is sent after the gun completely disappears. It is most effective, like all short birds, when the bird is thrown in a difficult to find location, such as down a slope, against an obstacle, in a ditch, etc. 

For young dogs, the inevitable hunt that develops after they are drawn to the blind (where they saw the gun disappear) can lead a dog to develop confidence in rooting out a short bird, learning to hunt away from the blind, and ultimately to not pay any attention to the gun walking a way! 

For an older dog, it is a useful tool for working on communicating the push out from the blind- what we call "influencing" the dogs to go more directly to the bird.

In the seminar we did a setup with two Ontario ten steps- not because they were tight and influenced each other, but because it created a second opportunity to work on the skill.

All for now (you'll have to buy the DVD:

Mike


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thank you Mike Lardy for clearing up my misunderstanding.


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

Wow, Ted Impressiver getting Mike Lardy and Dennis Voigt to respond.
Thank you all for your input


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't know about this.. mlardy is a Jr member on rtf.... barely enough posts for pm's. :razz: 

Thanks Mike. I hope you have a sense of humor.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

“Isn’t it funny how day by day nothing changes, but when we look back everything is different.” ~ C.S. Lewis


​


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## H2O_Control_guy (Jul 14, 2009)

In general I agree with Ted. I'm still a novice at the FT game so maybe there are more things that are interesting to me because my knowledge base is not near as extensive as some of the others on this forum. I'm just starting to do some judging so I find the "You be the judge" type thread interesting since there are a number of respected judges that will sound off. Ted I remember you contributing several judging things and also a pretty heated discussion between you and another judge. I think you were both pretty irritated, but there was good content there as well. That is interesting to me and keeps me coming back.

On the other hand, I've read too many threads where the true novice asks an innocent question and gets "roasted" or someone responds to a thread and gets "roasted" for making a comment that someone does not agree with. That sort of behavior is written off as "well it the Internet" so people behave like knuckleheads. I find that part less and less interesting. 

Finally I do enjoy reading the event updates and am thankful to those that provide them and I try to provide them when at a trial. To those of you that provide updates, please keep up the good work!

John Buesgens


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## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Tobias said:


> I don't know about this.. mlardy is a Jr member on rtf.... barely enough posts for pm's. :razz:
> 
> Thanks Mike. I hope you have a sense of humor.


A handful of posts dating back to 2008... Seems to be the real Mike Lardy.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

I agree with Ted. I have trained retrievers for over 50 years and was pretty successful. I got shot down lots of times by what some of you have described as bullies so I quit posting. No matter what level of a trainer that you are, the minute you stop trying to learn and think you know it all is when you just became a bad trainer. For those of you that don't post or ask questions because you are new to the game you do your self a disservice. There are no dumb questions. Believe it or not, I have learned a few things by some of the posts that these newbies posted. Sometimes these posts bring food for thought and might not be what everybody uses in training their dogs. I might add some thought on mixing programs. All of the training programs out there are a mix of different programs used in part by many different trainers over time. You can mix programs selecting the methods and psychology from different programs to form your own and you should, unless totally satisfied with just one. New trainers might be better served by sticking to one program at first due to their inexperience but everybody should seek out new additions or discard old ones to make their program be the best it can be.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

bshaf said:


> A handful of posts dating back to 2008... Seems to be the real Mike Lardy.


I know. I was just trying to have a little 'old time' RTF fun.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

mlardy said:


> An Ontario ten step (originated by Dennis Voigt) is a single mark, thrown by a gun that will utlimately retire at least ten steps away into a usually prominent holding blind. The dog is sent after the gun completely disappears. It is most effective, like all short birds, when the bird is thrown in a difficult to find location, such as down a slope, against an obstacle, in a ditch, etc.
> 
> For young dogs, the inevitable hunt that develops after they are drawn to the blind (where they saw the gun disappear) can lead a dog to develop confidence in rooting out a short bird, learning to hunt away from the blind, and ultimately to not pay any attention to the gun walking a way!
> 
> ...


Mr Lardy, thank you for taking time to answer a training question on RTF. I'm sure all would appreciate it if you could continue to do so. 
Regarding 10 step. When working with your dog to remain focused on the fall vs a distraction it can be difficult (at least for learning trainers) to Tell exactly where dog is looking. With 10 step the fall and blind are not that far apart. I learned a variation where birdboy walks towards next station and you work on no/here/good/send/etc While birdboy is in view sometimes making it to next station. Do you incorporate something similar? 
Thank you in advance!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I am still amazed that we haven't had more discussion of what happened at the Farmer/Lardy seminar.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Get me photos of 5 fields


I'll get some pics this weekend!!!


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

The group I train with does drive away 4-wheeler marks. Throw mark and drive away before the dog is sent. Seems to be the same concept. Does anyone else do this?


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

I have done a lot of drive-aways.


bamajeff said:


> The group I train with does drive away 4-wheeler marks. Throw mark and drive away before the dog is sent. Seems to be the same concept. Does anyone else do this?[/Q


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Totally agree with Ted....Too many sophomoric Q ....and too many no it all's ...and too many haters.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I am still amazed that we haven't had more discussion of what happened at the Farmer/Lardy seminar.


I tried! And very glad Mr. Lardy and Mr. Voigt clarified that it was the *Ontario* 10-step. I remembered it had a name but, neglected to write it down. Thus far I have not yet tried it because I've not had any help but am anxious to incorporate it for my young dog who goes into panic mode sometimes and does the stupid dog hunts nowhere near the fall area. It seems like it would be a great exercise to set up when you're in a different area, with terrain and factors unlike what you normally train in.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> I tried! .


Yes, you did. Thank you. Now, if only some of your compatriots would chime in.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ted, When you say pictures, are Google earth coordinates acceptable?


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

People use Facebook more now with "groups" instead of the forum... I quit coming on here because all the posts were about whether to take a dog to the vet, pro's suck etc... I just happened to come today to check out a photo a training partner showed me that looks like it was taken in Alaska. Ted used one of them for a mark setup question.. 

Anyhow, I don't know why I am responding to this! Except, Ted where was that picture taken!?


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I can elaborate on the 10 step a bit. About 6-8 years ago, I started to do a marking procedure with short birds where the gunner threw a bird and then walked back to a holding blind. I didn't care if the dog watched the gunner retire. Then I would work on communication as if it was a short retired memory bird. *In other words you practice getting the dog to focus back on the bird with "easy" and a soft send.* Mike saw this and labelled it "the Ontario 10 Step". Although, it was often much more like 20 steps!.........


I was just watching your DVD "Training Retrievers Alone" and I really learned a lot about an "easy" and soft send because you not only used the word easy but softened your voice to a whisper.


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## joeyrhoades (Feb 23, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> Joey
> 
> I think any of these topics would be great to elaborate on.
> 
> ...




Okay, sorry for the delay response on this. I was out of town for work last week after the seminar, and when I got home I spent time with the wife kids and pups. I am back into a normal routine now and I will dive into each of my topics more thoroughly since I have my notes handy.

Some of the others on here that were there, feel free to correct me if I am wrong and add your perspective where I missed something.

And Ted, I do thoroughly enjoy your marking threads. That is one thing as a beginner that nobody has really ever helped me with even though I have asked many of people. I still have a lot to learn on how to set up marks and what I am looking for when I set up marks.

(NOTE ON MYSELF: I will refer to Lardy's stuff because that is what I am using to train my dogs. I am still a beginner and it is the method I am studying to train my dogs)
(Disclaimer: I hope I do not miss quote the trainers and handlers, so someone please correct me if I am wrong)

Topic 1: *SIT
*
This was a very interesting topic.

As you stated, Farmer/Aycock believe in sit meaning sit. I mean that is the fundamental and it better be correct to start with and enforced. Farmer actually helped work one of the dogs on the start of correcting a creeping/movement/disregard to sitting. It was a standard typical drill like you would see on Lardy's DVD's. Walking with a short lead w/choke chain, collar on. Danny did not use a heal stick for this. Just a random walk with sits thrown in. Try not to be too predictable so the dog anticipates. change the walking speed. dont always say here when you start walking. make the dog stay there until you call it back to heal. He did this for about 10 minutes to kind of give the feel of what he was getting the trainer of that dog to do. Fast forward to the next day, they asked Danny to run their dog on the next set of marks. This was to see how he would enforce that standard on marks. Dog was happy and got a lot of sit, nicks. Also, after a few where the dog ignored the sit, danny used low continuous pressure until the butt hit the ground. Set a high standard and keep it.

Lardy's reaction was that it was a lot of pressure on the dog. As as some stated in the thread, he thought it could lead to other issues. Granted, Lardy stated that he does not train young dogs anymore so he is getting these dogs that were started somewhere else by others. 

I think the point Lardy was trying to make is that some dogs have a lot of movement at the line. To correct that behavior and get it back completely still, you may create other problems such as noise or happy feet. What he wanted to accomplish out of these dogs was to get them to sit (whether it be 2 inches from the ground in more of a crouch) and still be able to see the birds. You may have to live with some movement at the line to keep from other problems. By no means was he saying that he would allow them to move all over the place, just that with a particular dog and case you may have to live with a little movement just to keep from getting other issues. Of course he would prefer a perfectly still dog, but just that sometimes you may have to adjust to keep from having to over correct a dog or use the collar too much.

And to that, they both made the point on "nagging a command". Basically you are repeating a command in hope that the dog will follow it. If you are giving the command, make sure you can enforce it and get the desired response.


Another note that I took was on creeping. This could be a case of giving too many cues/commands at the line. There is a fine line between lining the dog up and fiddling too much with the dog at the line. some of the cues you are giving the dog might be causing the creep. 

That is about all I have.

Funny Note: On one of the last set of marks, Mike thought Judy was a little too happy with the collar on earlier setups. When she goes to run the marks, Mike asked for her transmitter. You should have seen the look on her face.

I will get to next topics in a bit. I am on my lunch break at work.

Joey


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## jgsanders (Jul 9, 2015)

joeyrhoades said:


> Okay, sorry for the delay response on this. I was out of town for work last week after the seminar, and when I got home I spent time with the wife kids and pups. I am back into a normal routine now and I will dive into each of my topics more thoroughly since I have my notes handy.
> 
> Some of the others on here that were there, feel free to correct me if I am wrong and add your perspective where I missed something.
> 
> ...


Joey,
Thanks for this information. You don't have to feel any pressure to take time out of your lunch/day to explain the seminar highlights to those who did not attend. That's on us no matter the excuses of some. Hope T/baseball is going well for your son.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I see it all the time. Some dogs are talented enough to win regardless of the holes at the line. 



John Robinson said:


> I have seen average handlers compete and win on a regular basis with dogs that would drive you and I crazy. These dogs are so talented and smart enough, they seem to manage the handler rather than the other way around.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Well one thing is for sure is that issues at a trial whatever the reason was it used to be news here. Poor test set up and fire up the bus. A issue with AKC and it was a hot topic. Passionate people were banned or slapped and things became more PC. Then paid for ads came in. This is my 1st comment in maybe years. Seems like a lot of stuff interesting is now on facebook.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

Julie R. said:


> I just edited my post to add some photos I took there you might like to see and Pat has some on his page, too. I took pages of notes; there wasn't a formal agenda, things just sort of evolved from what the dogs/handlers did and what they (Farmer, Lardy and Burns) felt was important to go over. My notes are elsewhere, I'm still digesting and waiting for things to dry up here so I can try some new stuff. What I posted above are the things that most stuck in my mind.


Julie, I really enjoyed your summary. Thank you for posting. This was the second time in 12 hrs I've heard about the NASCAR room rates. Last night I talked with a friend who is in Bristol this w/e at a field trial and heard some horror stories about expensive rooms.


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