# Master Blinds



## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

The last two tests I have went to the blinds were placed exactly where a mark was in the test. I do not mean "near" the mark these were the exact spot where a mark was on all blinds. A guy trains and teaches a dog not to go back to an old mark and a Master test places each and every blind on an old fall??? I should mention was the same judge in both tests. Is this the "norm" now in Master tests?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I hope not.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Seems like a way to trick well trained dogs to me.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

Sounds like someone that really doesn't train retrieving dogs.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

How can this be a new norm when one judge in Minnesota did it two weekends in a row? New norm for that judge maybe. Avoid that judge.


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

Have never seen that in a test, and hope that I don't. 

Like John said, the experienced dogs are going to stay out of that area, and if the young dogs go to an old fall and get rewarded with a blind, it's going to really screw them up when have to run a blind through an old fall.

So, in the two tests that you saw this happen at, how successful were the dogs on that blind? I would imagine that the dogs were pretty successful. 

Did they run that blind to set them up in another blind to run through an old fall? Was it a double blind, first blind to an old fall and then a second through an old fall, to specifically mess with them? I think there are a lots of ways to challenge a dog on blind without doing something like that.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Each blind at both tests was either just short of a mark with the same line or exactly on the spot of an old fall. IMO the dogs that really could not run good blinds would line the blind many dogs you could tell very nervous about taking a cast into the old mark which was now the blind. I do not judge shop, I go to the nearest test to me, in the future will certainly avoid this judge. The HT game is not only learning how to train your dog but also which tests(judges) to avoid. Each blind could have been placed even 10 feet east or west of the fall and say 25 yards past. This would have demostarted a Master level dog's ability to line though a scented area. 

I have no idea if the judge can train or handle at a Master level but running under him I would say not.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

The solution is simple. Write a letter with the names of as many handlers on it as you can get saying that if you see that judges name on their premium you will not attend their test. Mail it to every club secretary you can.


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Sounds like they set it up so the line to the blind was under the arc of the mark.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Not that I am in favor of this technique but surely the judge would be able to tell if one had control of the dog on a blind. Should not the dog go where you tell them to go? I am prepared for the firestorm.....BSEG!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> Sounds like they set it up so the line to the blind was under the arc of the mark.


Not under the arc, according to OP, blind and mark are the exact same bird. Re Jacduck; true a master dog should be able to handle wherever you put it, it's just blatantly obvious the judges are playing with a trained dog's head by doing this, while rewarding the lesser trained dog. Like somebody said, there are many ways to challenge a dog on a blind without resorting to this trick, but it is what it is.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

This is idiotic.
I would have gone to the marshal and complained. The committee should step up and tell the judges hell no, not at our test.
If the committee didn't have the balls, I'd pull my dog.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

I am seeing more master blinds being placed so they are near but SHORT OF a mark -- to me this avoids the opportunity to test a dog's training and compliance to drive deep of a fall to retrieve a blind. ONE test last year (Fall Line in the spring) the land blind was DIRECTLY in line to and short of the flyer. Marked by a little fake Christmas Tree that was painfully obvious. COULD NOT figure that one out, why on earth a judge would do that and besides returning to an old fall what it demonstrated.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I am seeing more and more excuses from handlers in the shooting field that Birds are not being shot and landing in accordance of the training scenarios that have been trained for ,with the intention of gaining experience for winning in competitions . Speaking purely from a UK perspective of course , because You guys are doing just fine .


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Swampcollie said:


> Sounds like they set it up so the line to the blind was under the arc of the mark.


Absolutely not....please read origianl post, blind was in the same spot, not under any arch, not to the side, not back of the mark, not a different line to the blind, THE same line, and same spot.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> This is idiotic.
> I would have gone to the marshal and complained. The committee should step up and tell the judges hell no, not at our test.
> If the committee didn't have the balls, I'd pull my dog.



The very minute anyone would do as you suggest you are tagged a "troublemaker, stirring the pot" nada, nada, and a. I have one more pass on my bitch and two on my male then only FT with the two dogs. People did say things to themselves, I simply ran the test got my pass, thanked everyone and left. Just was curious if the is the "new thing" in the HT arena.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

You might be disappointed with some FT judges, too. Was training with some FT guys recently who were training for blinds planted two yards short of a gunner. Evidently that kind of blind has been popping up in trials around here. Basically the dog has to run straight at the gunner to line the blind. Why would a judge set up that kind of blind?


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Matt McKenzie said:


> You might be disappointed with some FT judges, too. Was training with some FT guys recently who were training for blinds planted two yards short of a gunner. Evidently that kind of blind has been popping up in trials around here. Basically the dog has to run straight at the gunner to line the blind. Why would a judge set up that kind of blind?


Not disappointed, no one, or no venue is perfect as I myself have plenty of faults. This just came up in two separate HT with common denominator of this one judge. I hjave trained like we all have thta the dog should never go back to an old fall. I just do not understand why the blind not could have been even say 25 yards past an old fall, heck the line could be 5 yards left or right with wind blowing the scent of an old fall to the dog, that to me would be a Master level test. Just seems to me that if judges trained their own dogs at Master level they woud know better then this.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

I have seen that before, gunner sitting out in the open with the bird a few feet in front. Have also seen the decoy gunner off to the side, out in the open with a diversion shot from that station.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> The very minute anyone would do as you suggest you are tagged a "troublemaker, stirring the pot" nada, nada, and a. I have one more pass on my bitch and two on my male then only FT with the two dogs. People did say things to themselves, I simply ran the test got my pass, thanked everyone and left. Just was curious if the is the "new thing" in the HT arena.


If people with sense don't speak up about dumb crap like this, then only people with no sense will run (and ruin) the show. 
We're already well on our way.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Matt McKenzie said:


> You might be disappointed with some FT judges, too. Was training with some FT guys recently who were training for blinds planted two yards short of a gunner. Evidently that kind of blind has been popping up in trials around here. Basically the dog has to run straight at the gunner to line the blind. Why would a judge set up that kind of blind?


I've seen it a lot, but never with an associated mark or area of fall. Just a short gunner placing a bird at his/her feet. Pick it up, then run a long blind. We train on running very tight lines to visible guns and are very cautious about using the collar near guns or aof, so it's not a huge deal. Do not like the idea of sending them right back to an old fall to get a blind.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Seen a few blinds which ran practically the same line as a mark then skirted an old fall area and angled off of it. Seems like a good way to test a dog to me, A) it's challenging to expect a dog to take a similar line as one he's already took. B) there's temptation of scent, and having picked up a previous bird in a fall area. On such blinds you pretty much need to challenge them or get into major trouble.

Haven't seen a blind placed in the old fall area, haven't seen one short of the old fall either. I think that would be sucky for the next dogs marking, their depth perception better be on or they will get caught in the scent of the blind, when going for their mark; which is pretty unfair as your going to be penalizing dogs for using their nose, and end-up judging handling not marking. But then I also think a master dog should go where he's told regardless including be able to be handled back to an old fall. What if you shot a scotch double and 2 bird just ended up in the same spot? They need to be able to go back and pick up the second bird.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

What is being discussed is a test in which a pair of *LAZY* judges couldn't be bothered to set up a truly challenging blind and opted to set something up that was totally contrary to good training and testing practices in order to make the well trained dogs nervous and prone to making a mistake. 

Hopefully the actual test was as described and we're not flaming judges who don't deserve it.

Hunt'Em Up; your post is the old "it happens in hunting" argument. And, true enough it can and does happen hunting. But when we hunt there isn't time off from work, travel expenses, motel fees, restaurant bills and entry fees involved. -Paul


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

paul young said:


> But when we hunt there isn't time off from work, travel expenses, motel fees, restaurant bills and entry fees involved. -Paul



Hunting for me
Time off from work = YES
Travel expenses = HECK YES
Motel fees = IF NEEDED YES
Restaurant bills = YES PLUS A HIGHER DRINK BILL
Entry fees = no, but do have lease expenses, hopefully shells, clothing, licenses, and a lot lot more.

I need cheaper hobbies.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

bjoiner said:


> Hunting for me
> Time off from work = YES
> Travel expenses = HECK YES
> Motel fees = IF NEEDED YES
> ...


You need cheaper hobbies???????I see you have a 500pt dog. So how many entry fees doing the same level of test with the same dog? That has to be expensive.


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## Mike Sale (Feb 1, 2011)

Just ran one where the blind was 3 feet to the left of where the mark landed. And there was a big clump of Johnson grass right in front of the line that you had to handle your dog around first and then handle to the old fall to pick up the blind ?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Could the dog go thru the Johnson grass and line the blind?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Quit crying and run the test - a master dog should go where ever you tell him, end of story. There should be no consideration at the highest level of testing for what "typical" training looks like. If you made your dog so nervous about an old fall he won't handle back to one - that's on you.

I remember watching dogs struggle in Boston once to get to a blind near a gun station. We just lined em and moved on...


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

It seems to me as though the blind posted by the original poster may be unfair or contrary to the rule. The issue is the blind being placed exactly where the fall of the mark was. How is this possible without blind placement all over the field. In a 60 dog field, I've never seen 60 falls exactly the same and for that matter, bird throwers who could even tell where each fall was ... here or there or there or there? In any case, the blind would be placed in different spots for different dogs. Furthermore, how much did the placement of the blind impact the judging of the mark?

Candidly, I'd likely not invite the judges back and if a member of the committee, I'd consider writing a note to AKC Performance Events. There's no excuse for this lack of thought. Even if there was no other place to put the blind, there were other alternatives ... requesting a new test site or even running the blind independently by invitation at another site. Heck, you could have run the blind first and then run the marks by invitation.


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## big trax (Mar 31, 2015)

Darrin, I respectfully disagree. We aren't running field trials. If a judge needs to determine who has the best dog and he or she can't figure out any other way to do that, then by all means, set up a convoluted blind to figure it out. At least in the judge's mind, I guess that determines who has the better dog that day.

We are hunt testing. I am new to master tests. I just started running them this year. I've run a lot of HRC tests and I've hunted way more in a variety of conditions. I also ran the same series Mike Sale referred to. Like all other master tests I've seen, it mirrored a hunting set up about as well as I could guard Michael Jordan in a game of one on one. First of all, if I had been hunting and needed to run the blind Mike is referring to, I would have stepped over three feet where I could have a clear line of sight all the way to the downed bird. Yeah...the dogs could push through that johnson grass. How many of us put our dogs through that stuff (it was thick and at least 5-6' tall) and risk scratching the dog's cornea? I don't. I have enough sense to move over. Do I teach my dogs to go through cover? You bet, but I don't gamble with injuries. I have way too many hours, too much money, and most importantly, I love my dog.

Again, we are hunt testing. I know everyone hunts differently, but I've yet to see anything at a master hunt test that resembles a day's hunt. The dog is on dry ground (rarely see a stand or blind used) and shots go off 150 yards away. Don't get me wrong...I love the game, but it is a game. It doesn't resemble a hunt in the scatters of Arkansas or in a flooded rice field. I lost one of my dogs in the test Mike is referring to because I handled her into the water. I refused to allow her to cheat. I had handled in the first as most of us did on the most ridiculous marking setup I've ever seen and they threw a double in the third so, I had no chance to pick up a triple clean.

I have no problem with that...I chose to put her in the water (dogs were carried if they ran the bank and picked up the bird). Imagine this hunt - wind is out of the north at 20 mph and the pond has 1/2" of ice...you putting your dog across that pond or are you ok with her running thirty yards of shoreline to pick up the bird and staying dry and warm? Again, it is a game and we all try and play by the rules of the game. Since it is a game, the judges have control of the playing board. I don't care how difficult a test is set up, but if we are judging dogs on marking and control, put the birds where the dogs can see the arc and fall. Place blinds where there are factors and suction - all you want, but give the handler a chance to see the dog. Hunting test?? I wish I could take every master judge I've ran under to a few blinds with me to let their dogs hunt. I've hunted many days where every retrieve was a blind retrieve because the old blind did not afford a dog any line of sight other than the birds over the decoys.

These tests are fun, but if judges think they resemble a hunt in any fashion, they are proving to those of us who do hunt, they don't know jack.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

DarrinGreene said:


> Quit crying and run the test - a master dog should go where ever you tell him, end of story. There should be no consideration at the highest level of testing for what "typical" training looks like. If you made your dog so nervous about an old fall he won't handle back to one - that's on you.
> 
> I remember watching dogs struggle in Boston once to get to a blind near a gun station. We just lined em and moved on...



You have answers for everything, I just do not understand why you don't have 5 NFC's under your training. Just rediculous to say a finished dog should go "where ever you tell them" many of the dogs at Master test are trained WELL above this level as they run FT as well. You have all the answers but cannot seem to grasps that a dog who is well trained to NEVER go back to an old fall would be nervous about taking the same line to the same old fall. You can't seem to realize FT dogs have to be able to handle VERY tight marks without entering the area of an old fall, now you say those same dogs should have no issue going back to the same fall. 

SMH. How fair is this as a trainer to do this to the dog?


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

This just showed up on my facebook thingy. Might apply here.


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## huntintiger (May 31, 2016)

You are spot on big trax.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> You have answers for everything,


No not everything - sorry you don't like my answer. This is a matter of opinion - again sorry mine and yours aren't the same. Suggest you get over it as f###s given = 0 on my end.

When's the last time you judged? It's been years for me and I only did it twice. I don't judge judges - never did. They gave their time to set up tests and judge your dog - people should have some appreciation for their work.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I should add if it was a JH or SH test then I would be a strong advocate for not running contrary concepts but MH is as good as it gets. It should be the be all, end all hunting dog and that dog has to go where I send it. If the second bird is directly in line and they have to run over an old fall, they have to do that. What? We're disturbing 15 minutes to get out of the blind and get the bird ourselves because sending the dog there is "contrary to training"? 

If you fixed your switching and perseverance issue by burning your dog away from an old fall - that's on you. My dog was a switching fool in a test. He wanted the mark HE wanted but he was deliberately trained to go back to an old blind or an old fall and not be nervous. 

I guess the guys who taught me that were field trial competitors so that training is no good for hunting tests.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I think I know what AKC's answer would be.


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## duramax00 (Mar 5, 2012)

Matt McKenzie said:


> You might be disappointed with some FT judges, too. Was training with some FT guys recently who were training for blinds planted two yards short of a gunner. Evidently that kind of blind has been popping up in trials around here. Basically the dog has to run straight at the gunner to line the blind. Why would a judge set up that kind of blind?


I train to run at the gun station and run past gun station. If you want a challange set your blind up right in front of hide or a round bale of hay .You then will know what flare is in dog training.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

I expect that if I line my dog up on the gun and say dead bird he's going to buck up and and be ready to rock, and a reasonable amount of the time take a whistle and then a cast either behind or under the arc- pretty enthusiastically. If I Line him up on an old fall and say dead bird he's not going to want to look out at all- it's a trick- and he won't like it. 

People who ask dogs to run to or through an old fall, or throw birds the wrong way on the water don't understand dog training- and how you can't make a dog do it one way all week his whole life then expect him to be comfortable happy or maybe even willing to do it another way on the weekend. There are some fundamental rules that these dogs are taught as "basics" and good tests don't ask dogs to break those rules. You can establish who can mark and who can run blinds without tricking any dogs or you shouldn't mess with them


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

jhnnythndr said:


> I expect that if I line my dog up on the gun and say dead bird he's going to buck up and and be ready to rock, and a reasonable amount of the time take a whistle and then a cast either behind or under the arc- pretty enthusiastically. If I Line him up on an old fall and say dead bird he's not going to want to look out at all- it's a trick- and he won't like it.
> 
> People who ask dogs to run to or through an old fall, or throw birds the wrong way on the water don't understand dog training- and how you can't make a dog do it one way all week his whole life then expect him to be comfortable happy or maybe even willing to do it another way on the weekend. There are some fundamental rules that these dogs are taught as "basics" and good tests don't ask dogs to break those rules. You can establish who can mark and who can run blinds without tricking any dogs or you shouldn't mess with them


Maybe - it's possible - that the judges want to know if the dog will work with the handler as opposed to whether or not he's been taught the common concepts he might see in a test.

We testing a top level hunting dog here or a top level testing dog?

The test is about marking, perseverance, train-ability and style... It's NOT about whether your dog will swim past a gun on two down the shore... 

At the master level - you should be ready for anything and everything. In the lower levels, OK let's talk about not setting a young dog back, but in master? nah - it's on you to be ready for whatever happens. 

The birds don't fall in the prescribed pattern on a hunt.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

I shouldn't have posted. I'm just blown away.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

jhnnythndr said:


> You talk about MH like it's the open, you crack me up. Look dude- I just judged a q full of mh dogs and I was completely taken aback at there lack of proficiency and lack of training. If you'll run a mh or q or aa stake somewhere with your own dog- or one of your clients- I'll pay your travel and entry fee just to see what your version of one looks like.


Amen I will as well. 

Darrin I am no one but I know enough to say this, the blind easily could have been placed 10 feet over and back 25 yards and on the down wind side so the dogs had to drive past an old fall with scent. You have the answers for everything, you say finished dogs handle it all.....we yes they do, my bitch was nervous but she goes where casted so no issues. You want to know what dogs handled this the best.........the poor dogs that COULD NOT handle, and failed all the marks d/t switching. They lined the blind because going back to an old fall is what they do all the time.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but If they failed marks for switching, why were they running blind?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Amen I will as well.
> 
> Darrin I am no one but I know enough to say this, the blind easily could have been placed 10 feet over and back 25 yards and on the down wind side so the dogs had to drive past an old fall with scent. You have the answers for everything, you say finished dogs handle it all.....we yes they do, my bitch was nervous but she goes where casted so no issues. You want to know what dogs handled this the best.........the poor dogs that COULD NOT handle, and failed all the marks d/t switching. They lined the blind because going back to an old fall is what they do all the time.


You sure have a good reputation for B#itching about others judging, without ever taking the step to do it yourself.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Todd Caswell said:


> You sure have a good reputation for B#itching about others judging, without ever taking the step to do it yourself.


You mouth never ceases to run. Your reading comprehension about 2nd grade level. NEVER bitched, in fact smoked both test, just smoked em!

And I give credit to the judgez two weeks ago, terrible third series drop 21 dogs to 8 passes I believe. Judges did not give everything a "do over" like CMRC does. I suppose if those who fail had one known they can claim "drag back scent " for the fail they could do it over then.


Nope Judges followed the rules there, and don't think AKC allows do overs!


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Hey I'm sure you smoked em in your mind..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> Hey I'm sure you smoked em in your mind..


 Step up your game and quite smakin your lips enough already..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

CMRC has nothing to do with the HRC test that is held there MM just rents the grounds from them, please get your facts straight..


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

A little late to the dance. Personally, I have no problem with the scenario as presented. Maybe my dogs stink or my training regimen is bad. I am proud of my dogs which all have been trained by me before/after work and weekends. My training regimen has allowed me to title 3 MH's.

With my training program all my dogs complete the 4 phase drill. This drill incorporates a mark then 4 blinds. One behind the gun, one under the arc, one past the fall and one through the fall. Going though the fall is an important part of the drill. I then incorporate the same concepts into Key Relationship Drills. Someone who trains using these drills will not have any issues with these types of blinds.

How would a blind end up in or near the old fall instead of through it? Cannot answer that question without being there but limited bird boys would be one reason. If a bird station must throw and plant a blind then time management may dictate less than ideal blind placement.

Inline marks present the same issue. Those have been used by judges for at least the 10 years I have been running hunt tests. 

Field trial blinds will often use the flyer station from the land marks as suction for the second series land blind. The area of fall can be pretty large and may be incorporated into the blind.

The concept of pushing through an old fall isn't new. Placing the blind in the fall isn't ideal but shouldn't present a problem for a dog that has trained to punch through an old fall. Train for the scenario or avoid the judge. Running under judges you like isn't judge shopping, it is simply making the most of your recreational opportunity.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

So where was the influence of the second judge?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

fishduck said:


> A little late to the dance. Personally, I have no problem with the scenario as presented. Maybe my dogs stink or my training regimen is bad. I am proud of my dogs which all have been trained by me before/after work and weekends. My training regimen has allowed me to title 3 MH's.
> 
> With my training program all my dogs complete the 4 phase drill. This drill incorporates a mark then 4 blinds. One behind the gun, one under the arc, one past the fall and one through the fall. Going though the fall is an important part of the drill. I then incorporate the same concepts into Key Relationship Drills. Someone who trains using these drills will not have any issues with these types of blinds.
> 
> ...



Mark, I understand what you have stated and your point of view. 

I have set up blinds that went thru the area of an old fall (sometimes 2 old falls). But the placement of the bird was well beyond the fall area(s). I have no idea how to judge the type of blind being discussed. It would be arbitrary, at best, and would have the potential of eliminating dogs with a good nose when casting the dog within the scented area instead of driving thru it. 

No way am I going to set this type of blind up.

If a dog goes into an old fall on a blind and stays in there, I want that to be the dog's doing. And I want to be able to drop that dog from further testing.-Paul


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## KipDixon (Apr 20, 2013)

*(Todd Schmadl) just always seems to have problems!!!!!*



TODD SCHMADL said:


> You mouth never ceases to run. Your reading comprehension about 2nd grade level. NEVER bitched, in fact smoked both test, just smoked em!
> 
> And I give credit to the judgez two weeks ago, terrible third series drop 21 dogs to 8 passes I believe. Judges did not give everything a "do over" like CMRC does. I suppose if those who fail had one known they can claim "drag back scent " for the fail they could do it over then.
> 
> ...


 TODD

Seems you have a lot of problems, maybe you should TRAIN rather than run other people and venues in the the ground. Seems to me if you play by the rules of the venue you entered and have fun that it is a no loose situation. I am pretty sure the majority of the people on this site would agree!!!!!!

Kip


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## duramax00 (Mar 5, 2012)

Train harder than you expect to run at a test. Don't give them anything to judge.


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## Mike Sale (Feb 1, 2011)

QUOTE : "Quit crying and run the test " WOW ! 

Not crying at all , My dog did fine on that blind. Was just throwing it out there in the ridiculous blind category.


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## Doug W (Mar 15, 2015)

Just a thought.... I wasn't there but... If you run a land triple with a double blind with yardage and gun stations figured in if you have a 100/125 yard limit you are going to need a lot of ground. You can have great marks to judge your standard but the blind will probably not work so well because if your at or close to your max yardage on marks your blinds end up poor because of limits in yards maybe... Put 3 very nice marks out score them place your blinds outside of marks so you don't conflict the two


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

OP could have made it a hat trick! He was signed up to run this w/e but scratched....sure enough flyer was dropping more or less on top of one of the blind poles....didn't see any dogs have any problems with that particular blind, there was, however, a whole bunch of disappointed handlers that wanted to see the OP's reaction to the blind. Maybe other judges should peruse their running order before setting the test....Oh Lord, please forgive me, that was naughty:twisted:


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Regarding the planting of a blind directly on a fall previously retrieved, ask yourself this...

Would a dog with very little training on not returning to an old fall, and very little training on handling likely go get the blind (in fact line the blind), if sent?

I say yes. So why set up a blind that an inadequately trained dog is likely to have no problems with? 

Any test that rewards the untrained response and may penalize the "trained" response should be reconsidered.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I have never seen a test like described in #55. That sounds crazy. Would you pls tell me where this occurred?

Capt Jack, I'm sure you saw the info by Lardy on the two marks thrown from the same gun station on same side. One angled in and one angled back. Lardy said this creates a similar problem for dogs. Have you seen these kind of marks before?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Regarding the planting of a blind directly on a fall previously retrieved, ask yourself this...
> 
> Would a dog with very little training on not returning to an old fall, and very little training on handling likely go get the blind (in fact line the blind), if sent?
> 
> ...


An old mentor told me a long time ago to avoid setting up test that inadvertently make good dogs look bad and bad dogs look good. 

I get the argument that a master level dog should be able to be handled into uncomfortable spots, and I think most can, but as Captjack points out, judges should make sure they challenge the lesser trained dogs too.


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## Christine Maddox (Mar 9, 2009)

Op states that the same thing occurred two weekends in row. Just go on EE and see which tests he ran Master dogs in and then find the common judge for those 2 events. Pretty easy without mentioning any names.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

John Robinson said:


> An old mentor told me a long time ago to avoid setting up test that inadvertently make good dogs look bad and bad dogs look good. I get the argument that a master level dog should be able to be handled into uncomfortable spots, and I think most can, but as Captjack points out, judges should make sure they challenge the lesser trained dogs too.


Yes....For me, this blind placement is less about being unfair to the dogs that are trained not to return to an old fall than it is about dogs that simply aren't trained (or trained to run blinds well)...You lose the opportunity to judge. A well trained dog will do it, maybe a little worried, but will do it - it is not much different than a blind placed beyond the fall, which is definitely a fair blind .... but with a blind placed directly on an old mark/fall a dog that won't/can't run a blind very well is getting a freebie... MHO.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I have never seen a test like described in #55. That sounds crazy. Would you pls tell me where this occurred?
> 
> Capt Jack, I'm sure you saw the info by Lardy on the two marks thrown from the same gun station on same side. One angled in and one angled back. Lardy said this creates a similar problem for dogs. Have you seen these kind of marks before?


W/o running the bus over anyone, I think the intent was to run the blind underneath the arc of the flyer. However the separation due to the imprecision of the flyer, led to the bird dropping in some instances on top of the blind. As there was a 25-30 mph wind blowing across the AOF and the blind stakes, many dogs ran down wind of them and into the scent cone. 

I am not making any representations or presenting any opinions as to the test set up. Could it have been done differently? Sure, but the judges' foremost concern on Saturday was a dog safety. It was supposed to hit 90F and they stated they didn't want big hunts. Same judges in the second series set up a double in which well over half the flight was forced to handle on a bird. I just thought it ironic that the OP would have been presented with three tests in a row where a blind was ran at or near an old fall. I also suffer from terminal smarta$$oholicism. (Hello, my name is Stu and I am a smarta$$)


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I have never seen a test like described in #55. That sounds crazy. Would you pls tell me where this occurred?
> 
> Capt Jack, I'm sure you saw the info by Lardy on the two marks thrown from the same gun station on same side. One angled in and one angled back. Lardy said this creates a similar problem for dogs. Have you seen these kind of marks before?


Never seen two on same side.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

paul young said:


> What is being discussed is a test in which a pair of *LAZY* judges couldn't be bothered to set up a truly challenging blind and opted to set something up that was totally contrary to good training and testing practices in order to make the well trained dogs nervous and prone to making a mistake.
> 
> Isn't it annoying? But it does happen.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks Red, That explanation helps.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

With the intent if Hunt Tests being to simulate a typical days hunt in the field.... has no 2 birds ever landed in the same spot when hunting ?

Maybe the OP can get his judges card and volunteer his time next year.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

shawninthesticks said:


> With the intent if Hunt Tests being to simulate a typical days hunt in the field.... has no 2 birds ever landed in the same spot when hunting ?
> 
> Maybe the OP can get his judges card and volunteer his time next year.


Have you ever hunted with a dog that you weren't allowed to talk to?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

My two cents: We have retrievers and the dog should be able to retrieve what we want him to retrieve. I personally do not explain away why my dog didn't do the work as presented. However there is something to be said about setting up a TEST. I am quite capable of saying "I never expected this" or "Why did the judges do this when they know what most people are training their dogs to do". It is not that hard to trick/fool a dog if you really want to. 

Bottom line: Train on concepts but also expect the unexpected. However I would not be happy with the test as described by the OP.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

captainjack said:


> Have you ever hunted with a dog that you weren't allowed to talk to?


I've never spoken to my dog while I was shooting at wild ducks... does that answer your question?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

red devil said:


> W/o running the bus over anyone, I think the intent was to run the blind underneath the arc of the flyer. However the separation due to the imprecision of the flyer, led to the bird dropping in some instances on top of the blind. As there was a 25-30 mph wind blowing across the AOF and the blind stakes, many dogs ran down wind of them and into the scent cone.
> 
> I am not making any representations or presenting any opinions as to the test set up. Could it have been done differently? Sure, but the judges' foremost concern on Saturday was a dog safety. It was supposed to hit 90F and they stated they didn't want big hunts. Same judges in the second series set up a double in which well over half the flight was forced to handle on a bird. I just thought it ironic that the OP would have been presented with three tests in a row where a blind was ran at or near an old fall. I also suffer from terminal smarta$$oholicism. (Hello, my name is Stu and I am a smarta$$)



I suspected that was the case.... under the arc of the flyer...might have made for an interesting poison bird blind... hahaha.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

shawninthesticks said:


> I've never spoken to my dog while I was shooting at wild ducks... does that answer your question?


But you were allowed to...

Hunt tests are contrived to test natural and trained abilities desirable in a retriever. Master level blinds are specifically designed to test trained abilities. Every untrained dog with even a little desire will eagerly go back to an old fall were they have previously found a bird. So placing a blind in this manner rewards the untrained dog. 

Just because something can happen in hunting does not mean it makes for an appropriate test.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

shawninthesticks said:


> I've never spoken to my dog while I was shooting at wild ducks... does that answer your question?


Really? Not a single word? I find that hard to believe. (unless you mean while you are actually in the act of shooting, which would makes sense). I regularly have to apologize to my dog for missing birds...or maybe I will have a conversation with him explaining that I don't know why the birds aren't flying today...


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

This is just another typical Sunday night "I failed at getting a participation ribbon ,so it's the judges fault" post... 

A master level dog should be a well balanced dog that goes where sent when casted. Period !
If not ,your training is out of balance.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

shawninthesticks said:


> This is just another typical Sunday night "I failed at getting a participation ribbon ,so it's the judges fault" post...
> 
> A master level dog should be a well balanced dog that goes where sent when casted. Period !
> If not ,your training is out of balance.


The op's dog passed the test not failed. I hope you don't volunteer.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Trust me I won't and who in their right mind would ? Any relatively new person tunes in and 
it's the same thing ever week ,either b!tching about lack of judges and/or quality of judges and how they where wronged.
Especially the OP ,he's constantly got a complaint or putting someone down to push himself up on here. 

And one last thing birddogn_tn yes I mean while shooting. You can talk to your dog at the line at any time except the short period of when you call for the marks until released, which is the closet comparable to pulling the trigger in a real situation...


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

shawninthesticks said:


> This is just another typical Sunday night "I failed at getting a participation ribbon ,so it's the judges fault" post...
> 
> A master level dog should be a well balanced dog that goes where sent when casted. Period !
> If not ,your training is out of balance.


I agree with your last two sentences, but not your first. I think the OP was just making an observation about what he saw as a weird trend in placing blinds directly on top of an old fall two weeks in a row, his dog actually did well. 

As others have pointed out, saying birds in real hunting situations can land anywhere, doesn't mean that makes this blind a good test. I wasn't there and as a judge myself, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the judge, I'm just commenting on the philosophy of planting that particular blind versus for example setting a blind over the top of a flyer but well past it, which to me would be legit. I think another poster who was there thought the blind was an under the arc blind which is challenging, fair and quite common.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

shawninthesticks said:


> This is just another typical Sunday night "I failed at getting a participation ribbon ,so it's the judges fault" post...
> 
> A master level dog should be a well balanced dog that goes where sent when casted. Period !
> If not ,your training is out of balance.


What an asinine comment. I was OP I passed the test, if fact flawless performance by my bitch. I think I had maybe two whistles on all the blinds but I know my bitch she was nervous going to the o.d fall for sure. Other "balanced" retrievers also were nervous. 

The point was NOT to complain nor bitch, the point was this same judge two tests that I ran under all blinds were placed exactly were an old fall was. A "balanced dog" is trained NOT to go back to an old fall. I was simply asking if this is the new trend in Master HT to place blinds in an old fall. But true to many on RTF looking to start sh%t. 

Last you state "well balanced dog that goes when casted", I have run enough Masters to see many times cast refusals, not sitting on the whistle, and many many dogs that cannot hold a line more the 15 yards yet they pass. 

Best of luck with your "balanced dog".


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

shawninthesticks said:


> Trust me I won't and who in their right mind would ? Any relatively new person tunes in and
> it's the same thing ever week ,either b!tching about lack of judges and/or quality of judges and how they where wronged.
> Especially the OP ,he's constantly got a complaint or putting someone down to push himself up on here.
> 
> And one last thing birddogn_tn yes I mean while shooting. You can talk to your dog at the line at any time except the short period of when you call for the marks until released, which is the closet comparable to pulling the trigger in a real situation...


Oh really, I do not post here often until like you. Second, I have failed test, will fail more, right now got a high flying male almost more then I can handle on the line. I have NOTHING to "push myslef up" here. Not a breeder, not selling anything. Got nothing to prove to you or others. Yes I have an opinion on what I like in a dog, I am sure most here do. 

You open your mouth without your brain engaged. I passed the test, I passed the other test with this same judge. I guess when I have almost 2k in posts I will be as smart as you.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

shawninthesticks said:


> With the intent if Hunt Tests being to simulate a typical days hunt in the field.... has no 2 birds ever landed in the same spot when hunting ?
> 
> Maybe the OP can get his judges card and volunteer his time next year.


Will be working on it for next year now that I am retired got the time. My career maybe short because my idea of a master dog is no cast refusals, sitting on a whistle NOW when blown. That probably won't achieve the pass rate the clubs like. 

To me a Master test should be very similar to a Qual with the distance limitations. In my world the blind limit would be 350 yards, and marks 250 yards. You talk and talk about hunting situations, well I hunt more then most, my dogs pick up 400 on a bad year to over 1000 birds on a good year but I am counting snows as well. 

In hunting I do get blinds 400 plus yards, I do get marks over 200, Have birds landed in the exact same spot, NEVER.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Where's the " I'm bored with you" icon when you need it. I'm sure there is a Yawn icon but you are beyond that...


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

captainjack said:


> shawninthesticks said:
> 
> 
> > I've never spoken to my dog while I was shooting at wild ducks... does that answer your question?
> ...


This type of test is contrary to how most of us train our dogs. We avoid allowing our dogs to pick up multiple birds/bumpers in the same area from the very first puppy marks we throw. We also train them to deal with scent from old falls and run by or through it. Sure you can make a trained dog go back to an old fall, but why setup tests that may undo training? It seems to me that anyone who has trained a Master level dog themselves would not setup a test like the OP described.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Todd Caswell said:


> Where's the " I'm bored with you" icon when you need it. I'm sure there is a Yawn icon but you are beyond that...


Right next to the BIG MOUTH Icon, your mouth neve fails to open up with yor garbage. For someone who always has a negative comment about me why not just shut your mouth. I don't give one Sh*t about what you have to say but you sure love responding to any of my posts. 

What's the matter? Still pist that I called your club out on your "fake do-over test"?

If you have nothing good to say then probably best to just keep quiet and do your own thing.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jeeze you guys, way to derail a good discussion. Todd you are way too thin skinned, Captjack and I stuck up for you, leave it at that, no need for a three post diatribe.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Todd -

Until you have stepped into the judge's chair, be careful about how you 'call out' clubs/judges.... 

I think it is good to discuss these types of scenarios (blind placed on old fall, or other 'weird' set ups) but NOT the club or the judges that put on the test. They have to be cognizant of the many different facets of 'the hunt test'.... Judging ain't easy.... there is a LOT that goes into designing a test...rules, safety, time efficiency, balanced tests, etc ......... 

judges are no one's friend at the test, even though they may very well train with people they are judging. I personally hate dropping teams - of course I do, but I dislike it - it is the most stressful part of judging, to me. LOL .... 

That said, you seem to know plenty about how to set up tests, so I suggest you get yourself 'licensed' and put your time in at the honorary chair up front.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Right next to the BIG MOUTH Icon, your mouth neve fails to open up with yor garbage. For someone who always has a negative comment about me why not just shut your mouth. I don't give one Sh*t about what you have to say but you sure love responding to any of my posts.
> 
> What's the matter? Still pist that I called your club out on your "fake do-over test"?
> 
> If you have nothing good to say then probably best to just keep quiet and do your own thing.


HA HA your too easy to get riled up.. hardly any fun anymore. 100% defence, you need to change it up a bit...


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