# Force Fetch - Table Necessary?



## jburn34 (May 12, 2006)

How important is the table in FF? I've read several books and watched some videos, and it seems most are using a table. My dog is in the beginning stages and I've been doing it on the ground (don't have a table). Is it OK on the ground?


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Using the gound is fine. The table prevents you from having to bend over.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

You get a dog off the ground and you are in lots more control! I have a cable run across the top of my table. I just clip a lead from the cable to the collar and it slids down the cable perfectly. Good Luck!


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## mohaled (Oct 7, 2007)

I use my 4x4 truck tailgate down and its about perfect hieght.I do 
everything till it's time to fetch off the ground.


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## Rich Schultheis (Aug 12, 2006)

I use the grad student version of the FF table, my washing machine.


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## moose203 (May 2, 2007)

being disabled (below the knee amputee) i use a table out of convenience so i don't have to kneel down, but when it is time to fetch from the ground obviously no table, i have done it both ways i think there is a bit more control on the table at the beginning stages just my .02


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I'm in the middle of FF with my 3rd dog in 2 yrs. When I started with this one I saw right off he didn't like the table. I got him holding well and fetching on command on the table but when I tried to get any forward movement he locked up,even tried to back up a little. Rather than fight over this I decided to go to the ground. Two days later he is lungeing out 3 ft to get it on command. Point being it's really your preference and see how the dog responds. If he has trouble on the table go to the ground and vice versa. good luck


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

I don't use a table --- prefer to sit on a bucket and FF from the ground, using the ear pinch method (obviously you can't use the toe hitch). I've seen a lot of tables but didn't have the inclination to build one. I followed Evan Graham's SmartFetch stuff - he didn't use a table either.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

If I ff'd lots of dogs I'd build a table. For 1 or 2 dogs a year it isn't worth it.

I do it off the ground/floor.


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## jburn34 (May 12, 2006)

I put this together this afternoon...nothing fancy, but it does elevate him a little. Also, with the leash secured above him, he realized he could fight all he wanted but he couldn't lay down and he couldn't wrestle with me...


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## George C. Tull (Aug 25, 2006)

I sit in a chair on the back portch for starting hold then moved to the ground. Got into the ear pinch actually sitting in front of the TV with Smartfetch on sitting on the couch. Worked out fine for me.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

A table with cable system for restraint will allow you to get through some pressure avoidance easier. The first response to the pressure alot of the time is to lay down. A dog that is attached to the cable system can't lie down to avoid the pressure. Yes you have to move to the ground but by the time you go to the ground they have learned to deal with the pressure not avoid it.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

Before I move to the ground, I want toe nail marks in the plywood where the dog is digging down the table to "fetch". You can still use the cable as you progress in force on the table. When I move to the ground, I want the table to have been a big success.


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

I just start straight from the ground . Never use a bench or table.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

I use a table to save my back and it gives more control


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

Jason E. said:


> I just start straight from the ground . Never use a bench or table.


Starting from the ground has been known to cause creeping at FT!


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Marty Bullington said:


> Starting from the ground has been known to cause creeping at FT!


LOL .... Now thats funny .. LMAO


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## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

Marty Bullington said:


> Starting from the ground has been known to cause creeping at FT!


I thought tomorrow was Halloween, not April Fools Day!


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

Jason E. said:


> LOL .... Now thats funny .. LMAO


Jason,

You the man! That Nitro dog is hot too! Good luck at Palmetto!!!

The Bull


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

I'll tell you right up front, I'm not a fan of FF, at least the 'ear pinch, toe hitch' variety. And, I certainly don't buy into the 'FF is the answer to everything' arguement. So, take what I say with a grain of salt. I have 'trained' my only dog to retrieve on command, on the table, with good results so far. 

My experience has been that once the dog will take the dummy on command, and hold in a 'sit' on the table, the next hurdle to 'hold' has been the transition from 'sit' to 'stand', and then to 'hold' while you jump off the table. The transition seems important to the dog understanding the 'hold' means 'hold' no matter what posture, or state of motion he may be in. Working from the ground could eliminate some of the transition issue, so I can see the advantage of working from the ground.

Secondly, the table is sure easier on my tired old back, as others have pointed out.

If your dog is nervous on the table, I suggest forgetting everything else until he's comfortable on the narrow table. It's a distraction I think you can do without. Just walk the dog back and forth and turn him around until he has a feel for the dimensions of the table. Won't take long, and you can elminate that as a distraction in your training. But, it seems to me the table needs to be very stable - without wobble or rocking from one leg to the other, etc.

But, if you're going to FF your dog in the commonly understood meaning of the term, I don't see how you can do it without a table.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

My Table Is In The Garage And Measures 14' X 4' And When I Am Not Using It For Force Fetch, It Makes A Great Workbench.


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## Tim Marshall (Sep 3, 2003)

When I was working for a Pro, we sometimes had 2 or 3 of us force-fetching dogs at the same time. Only one table though. You learned real quick how to grab a 5 gallon bucket and head to another corner of the lot to get your guys done. 

You have to make the best of the time you have with them. Sometimes I would pull dogs off the truck and force fetch in the field waiting for clients to show up and run marks with us. 

Sure the table can save an "maturing" back, but totally not necessary to get the job done. I share property with another Pro at the moment, and it's the same thing.


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

Marty Bullington said:


> My Table Is In The Garage And Measures 14' X 4' And When I Am Not Using It For Force Fetch, It Makes A Great Workbench.


Ditto......I am still using mine as a work bench


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## TANK (Oct 25, 2007)

I use the ground w/ the ear pinch. makes for a easy trans to walking fetch, and I have used the tailgate a little


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I walk into the Vet's office. he is in one of the exam rooms with the door still open and a customer is trying to get a large bouncy dog onto the table for some reason. The receptionist gives me a very nice homemade Christmas cookie as she watches with me the aforementioned struggle in the exam room. I say "Thank You, I didn't think I would get dinner and a show" I guess I talk loud because Vet and customer look at me and close the door. 
After a bit we switch, customer goes to receptionist and I enter exam room, door open.
I say in my normal loud voice "Table" and Ice goes from sitting on the floor at heel to sitting on the table, in one graceful bound. Customer gives me a very dirty look, receptionist gives me a wink, vet hands Ice a Scooby snack.
The table is great for many things and my pups are on it from the start for grooming, nails, first aid. by the time it is time for force fetch they are so used to the table that it is not an issue. Just like collar conditioning. If they have had an E-collar on for every mark all their life by the time you get to collar conditioning the putting on part is second nature.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2008)

Jason E. said:


> I just start straight from the ground . Never use a bench or table.


Ditto... I do it all on lead on my sidewalk that runs the front of the house down to the kennels. 

Now that I've been doing it for 12 years and have done quite a few dogs, I do find that I get a little stiff if I'm doing lots of dogs, but other than that, I still prefer it to a table or cable.

-K


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I use a table, and after having done FF on the ground for a long time, wouldn't go back. It gets the dog up out of their comfort zone, and gives me more control. And especially when first introducing the pinch, I have the "acceptance posts" at the ends to help the dog focus...plus it keeps me from getting bitten.  The collars on the posts are adjustable for different sized dogs. And as Ken said, it sure makes things easier the the vet's office. The dogs learn to love the table, and if I turn them loose in the yard, they run to get on the table.

Often, when teaching this at seminars, I'll have three tables going at once as owners learn the process, and I work between all three.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I usually do about 10 a year. If I have a difficult dog in OB and CC I will use the table to start but get to the ground ASAP.
Good students are on the ground with a bucket from the start.
I have had several that were good on the table and when we go to the ground, have to back up and almost start over again.
IMHO doing it all on the ground if you can, saves a step.
BTW I am 56 years old and my back hurts too.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2008)

One reason I like going "freestyle" is because I can break into a trot or run with the dog and get them relaxed. I can move around them and move them around more easily than I used to be able to on a cable. For me, it's much easier doing it freehand...


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Sounds mostly like people use the table for themselves not the dog.
Sharon Potter make a good arguement for the table though.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I have a table and will use it, but it really depends on the dog. I've done a couple of clammers that I really needed them on the ground to teach the concept of action being the appropiate release. Some dogs progress more with movement which can be more productive. 

/Paul


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

NO--I use my tables for gun work--tail gate for our trucks nice height and also the floor of my shop- I sit on a Larin mechanics rolling seat-- works great--Place platform also in shop- in winter-


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## Jennifer Teed (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm going to bring this thread alive again, as I am facing issues with my dog. She keeps dropping to lay down and tries to roll over, like it's a game. She gets her paws up over the bumper and tries to get it out of her month. I have actually had some success when standing on top of her with my feet on both sides of her butt, forcing her to sit straight up, and this is also an easy position to praise by petting her chest and neck. I don't think this is the right approach, unless I plan on standing on top of her all the time. 

I don't think I have any other choice but to turn my garage work bench into a FF bench.


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

pezz said:


> I'm going to bring this thread alive again, as I am facing issues with my dog. She keeps dropping to lay down and tries to roll over, like it's a game. She gets her paws up over the bumper and tries to get it out of her month.
> I don't think I have any other choice but to turn my garage work bench into a FF bench.


If you have a post on your property try to attach a collar to the post at the hight of the dogs neck when it is sitting this will keep the dog from laying down on you. I just duct taped a collar to the post on my back porch and left it there, it got to the point where she would just walk out and sit next to the post when we went out. this basically serves the same purpose as the cable on most tables except that obviously its not useful for walking fetch.
jim
no need to use ur work bench if you dont want to


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> ...plus it keeps me from getting bitten. :wink:


Sharon I don't use a table,,,so I cant say for sure ,,,but it would seem like an appointment with the plastic surgeon trying to ff an aggressive dog on a table. 
what am I not seeing ?. It seems like the dogs face would be in my face.

Or is there something else that goes along with the table.?

Do you use a toe hitch with a back tie?
Just curious because you said its safer and I can't picture how?

Pete


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

NO I use floor of shop- tail gate of truck.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2009)

pezz said:


> I'm going to bring this thread alive again, as I am facing issues with my dog. She keeps dropping to lay down and tries to roll over, like it's a game. She gets her paws up over the bumper and tries to get it out of her month. I have actually had some success when standing on top of her with my feet on both sides of her butt, forcing her to sit straight up, and this is also an easy position to praise by petting her chest and neck. I don't think this is the right approach, unless I plan on standing on top of her all the time.
> 
> I don't think I have any other choice but to turn my garage work bench into a FF bench.


I don't think a bench is going to change that behavior...

Did you work on hold first? When you start forcing, hopefully the dog is already comfortable with holding the bumper so you don't have to worry about the dog trying to drop it as you teach the fetch part.

-K


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> The table is great for many things and my pups are on it from the start for grooming, nails, first aid. by the time it is time for force fetch they are so used to the table that it is not an issue. Just like collar conditioning. If they have had an E-collar on for every mark all their life by the time you get to collar conditioning the putting on part is second nature.





Pete said:


> Sharon I don't use a table,,,so I cant say for sure ,,,but it would seem like an appointment with the plastic surgeon trying to ff an aggressive dog on a table.
> what am I not seeing ?. It seems like the dogs face would be in my face.
> 
> Or *is there something else that goes along with the table*.?
> ...


Above the table will be something to tie the dog to, best is something that will allow the dog to move side to side. Eye level is right where I want um. Lookin right into those yellow eyes. Easier to bite them that way.;-)


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## TY 4 (Dec 22, 2006)

Howard N said:


> If I ff'd lots of dogs I'd build a table. For 1 or 2 dogs a year it isn't worth it.
> 
> I do it off the ground/floor.


Exactly, if you FF many dogs = table. It saves my back. I start (Introduce) all puppies out on a table. It conditions them to future use, Vet checks, grooming, physical inspection (ticks, injuries), and FFing


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

I learned FF from some bird dog enthusiasts about 40 yrs ago, using a table & toe-hitch. It works but I don't like it because each time I got a table built, I'd move or weather would eventually destroy it.

I'm going to suggest something here that I believe can give an amateur a distinct advantage over a pro. We're talking about a FF advantage. Every dog that I have purchased as a pup (or been given) over the years since starting this approach has developed very good mouth habits yet required very little FF time & effort.

The advantage comes from the fact that most pup owners get their pups at 7-8 wks old, while a pro usually gets a 6-10 mos old with his attitudes already being shaped (& the pup is much larger & stronger). Beginning at 8 wks old, I immediately begin to encourage retrieving in the hall at home. I never take the roled up sock or puppy bumpers from the pup when he returns. I p/u the pup, praise him & encourage "hold" verbally & by rubbing up on the lower jaw. I do this several times a day. After several days with most pups & a couple of wks for the slowest of my pups, each pup will hold the sock or bumper, routinely delivering to hand. Most have even learned "fetch" on command and "drop" which I condition verbally as they are picking up & delivering to hand. As I transition to outside retrieving, I continue this conditioning. The long & short is that most of my pups will "fetch" and "hold" on command before they are even ready for FF. And most also will do a credible walking fetch prior to FF. After my pups get their permanent teeth, I FF off of a dove stool with a swivel seat. I have a bad back & the swivel stool really helps. FF is then completed in a traditional approach but is a much shorter duration, since the pups already know "hold", "drop" & "fetch". The ear pinch is just to condition the pup to learn how to avoid pressure, work through pressure & become compulsive with the "fetch". I still go through stick fetch & then to collar conditioning, etc.

It works for me & I don't have the struggles that I hear others discuss.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Above the table will be something to tie the dog to, best is something that will allow the dog to move side to side. Eye level is right where I want um. Lookin right into those yellow eyes. Easier to bite them that way.:wink: Today 12:05 PM


What about the angle of the arm to the back of the collar?.

It seems excruitiatingly awkward, especially the placement of the arm/hand. I think its what is best for the trainer and what their comfortable with . Id' rather be on top than eye to eye ,,easier to control;-). Guess I'm just a dominant kind of guy.
Maby just maby,,,its all in the rope. 

Pete


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## ultimategundog (Mar 18, 2009)

my dog laysdown ( submisiion ) as soon as i am grabing her collar to teach her to force fetch.
Any sugestions


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

Table Necessary? No.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

ultimategundog said:


> my dog laysdown ( submisiion ) as soon as i am grabing her collar to teach her to force fetch.
> Any sugestions


It's not so much submission. they live for three things Fight Fear and Fake. My dog did the same thing out of fakery, do you have a cable above the table, if so hook her to so she can't lay down. Eventually she will be keyed in on the task at hand.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

LESTER LANGLEY said:


> Table Necessary? No.


I think that if the main question was "To properlly FF a dog is a table nessesary?" then the answer would be yes, this way there is total control of the envrioment and the dog. imo


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The lying down is an evasion...a way to get you to stop doing what you were doing. And if it worked, the dog will keep doing it. 

Is a table necessary? No...but it sure makes the job easier on both the dog and the human.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

metalone67 said:


> I think that if the main question was "To properlly FF a dog is a table nessesary?" then the answer would be yes, this way there is total control of the envrioment and the dog. imo


I think my dogs have been properly force fetched. I've never used a table. By stepping on the lead and with three fingers around the dog's collar you've got good control over him.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I like the FF table when working with a "hard case'. I like the fact that you can be eye level with the dog, also it makes the use of the toe hitch relatively easy on your back and then the transition to the collar seamless. I also like the ability to be able to use the posts and the wire.

john


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

The table makes the early stages of hold and FF easier ergonomically. I have leverage on the table and can react faster to drop situations. Also the usual avoidance issues can be cleaned up on the table especially if you've got the overhead cable. Doesn't do much for the bucking bronco, but it is great for other avoidance issues.


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## Ralph Pitfield (Jan 15, 2009)

Can anyone out there tell me where I can get a dvd of Evan Graham's Smart Fetch which will play on aBritish DVD Player
Ralph


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Ralph Pitfield said:


> Can anyone out there tell me where I can get a dvd of Evan Graham's Smart Fetch which will play on aBritish DVD Player
> Ralph


Uuuuhhhh????...Barack Obama?


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## tmerrill (Jul 6, 2006)

lablover said:


> Using the gound is fine. The table prevents you from having to bend over.


So does a 5 gallon bucket. Once sit is taught a bucket works great. You eventually have to get off of it, but teaching "hold" and ear pinch work great sitting on it.


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## Jake Sullivan (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't like using a table, easier for me to just kneel down.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Jake Sullivan said:


> I don't like using a table, easier for me to just kneel down.


Talk to me in 30 years.

Dern Whippersnappers regards

Bubba


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Talk to me in 30 years.
> 
> Dern Whippersnappers regards
> 
> Bubba


Shucks Bubba, he didn't say anything about getting back up again.

Wrong side of 60 regards,


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