# Does anybody else dislike T and TT????



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I am getting really frustrated with this. First because of the previously posted problem of having to run abbreviated sessions due to the dog getting too hot. Second, blame it on my inexperience, I am just not fast enough on the whistle to get the "sit" command issued in time before he's beyond the crossing. Third, blame this one on my butthead, once he has been "over" I cant get him to look at the back pile, just have to send him, stop him, and recast. We went all the way back to the beginning, went over all the steps, yet once he's gone to either side, thats what he looks at, pure bugging I guess, and we can move forward and eventually get him to the back pile, but holy cow!

We have had some success with the DL Walters drills, three legged pattern and walking baseball. Why am I so stuck on this one and is it absolutely necessary that we get it?

I recently purchased the series of articles by Lardy from RJ. It was my intent to make up for our misguided start by going to the beginning and testing each step. All was fine until T.
????


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

wagon wheel drill - that will help....

are you sending him when he is looking at the wrong pile? or is he 'lying' to you between those pearly whites?



I began mini T work with my pup recently (40 yd to the back pile) - and I helped him learn not to focus so much on the over piles (an issue he had when we first started) by throwing a mark to the 'over' pile and then sending him to the back pile...

he wanted so so so much to get that mark, that it took a 3-4 times and some moving up to get him to realize what I wanted him to do...if he went to the back pile two times in a row without trying to veer off to the thrown mark, I stopped and cast him over....(no bumpers at the over piles). .....Did this for two days...then went right to using over 'piles', rather than over 'marks'...if that makes sense....didn't have any issues at all with the transition...

maybe it is a little backwards in methodology...but it worked pretty well for him.....
have to say he really loved it...he worked hard trying to figure out what he had to do to get that 'thrown' bumper.....

Juli


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2007)

review mike's stuff and make sure you taught it well and didn't move ahead too quickly. You teach the back pile first, back up to the baseline over a day or two, force if needed, stop occasionally, cast. Stop on the return occasionally. 

Shorten back up and teach the mini t, first by tossing bumpers over after stop him. Send him back more frequently than you stop him and/or send him over. the key is that he should ALWAYS be thinking the back pile and you develop that by sending him back considerably more, esp at the beginning.

Part of the issue, as you know, is if he's getting to hot too quickly, you don't have as much time to balance it out with more back sends and STILL teach the over parts...

So... Do I dislike T and TT??? Yes, in the heat of the summer, when I'm in the position you are and lessons are very short and it seems to take forever because of how hard you have to work to keep the balance to the back pile...

I once had seven dogs in TT in the worst part of the summer and I was looking for a noose every day. LOL We went out EARLY and it just took forever. I actually moved on before I felt everyone was to the point where I would normally move on because both they and I got SO bored with it... Ended up working out just fine.

-K


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

"and I was looking for a noose every day"

For you or the dog??????

My problem is it is now October and it just isnt going to get a heck of a lot cooler. I'm not sure it gets cool enough anywhere for Indy. I have been back through FTP, no prob. But when we work on the t stuff, we cant get through very many repetitions before we have to stop, so of course I try to introduce the over stuff too soon. Oh well, he is learning to handle, he hasnt lost his drive, but he is still mostly self employed. Lifelong effort:-(


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> First because of the previously posted problem of having to run abbreviated sessions due to the dog getting too hot.


I've never faced this problem so I can't add any input to what you've already gotten.



> Second, blame it on my inexperience, I am just not fast enough on the whistle to get the "sit" command issued in time before he's beyond the crossing.


This one I can help on. I mark my intersections with something promenent enough to see well from the line. Usually a piece of stick laid on the ground wrapped in survryer's tape. I've used big rocks I've moved to the intersection and I've used chunks of ice and snow that drops off of the underside of automobiles. (bet you can't use these :razz: ) As the dog is approaching the marker blow before they get there. After a few times you'll be able to stop them very near the marker. BTW, 5 yards is close to me. They know where the sidepiles are.



> Third, blame this one on my butthead, once he has been "over" I cant get him to look at the back pile, just have to send him, stop him, and recast.


This bugging is one of the reasons we do force to a pile and the double T. We're teaching them they have to go as _we _say not as he pleases.

For bugging I both move up and I handle. I handle the first few times the dog bugs. Then I'll move up, I've moved up so close to the pile with some dogs they can't help but go to the pile. Sometimes I'll call a dog all the way back for a resend. I do more of this with tough headed dogs with lots of go than with the softer more sensitive type who I handle more. 

Other issues that the double T and FTP address are no goes, popping and flaring. It takes maybe a month give or take to work through these.


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

In my experience there are 2 separate but often conflicting issues in the T. The first issue is going and stopping along the center line. The second is casting from the mid point to the side and back piles.

I try to separate the 2 issues at first. We work on going and stopping and casting back with the proper rotation, and then SEPARATELY work on casting from the mid point. I'll review 3 handed casting in another location first and then work on it in the T location. I do the casting portion in the T just like 3 handed casting and get them solid on that and then merge that concept into the previously taught go,stop, back cast portion along the line to the back pile.

Once running the T I do more back casts than overs, and quite a few sends to the back pile without stopping. Also if he's not getting it easily you can do a "mini T" thats not much bigger than your 3 handed casting pattern to help him get the idea before going to the full T.

Just some ideas.....Good luck,

Bill


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I have to thank you all for some great ideas. I think I am going to print out this entire thread and go over piece by piece. I think I get most frustrated by the whole thing when I read "the book" and it just doesnt go as planned. Again, thanks to all for your real interest and involvement!


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

Howard had good ideas. 

I had the same problem with bugging on the side piles. 

Where are your side piles located? I put mine 25 yards out and 25 yards over. That puts them 45 degrees offline. 

I started sending on just the back pile, from the intersection, then backing up 5 or 10 yards until I got to where I wanted. He didn't get stopped for 2 or 3 days. Then he didn't get an over cast for another couple of days. Just back casts from the intersection every once in a while. He just ignored the side piles. Then I made sure I did 4 or 5 backs for every over cast.

Once I worked this slowly I didn't need to correct except for the occassional sloppy sit. 

patience and perseverance

Brian


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Couple of things I think well help.

1. Remember that FTP is the step before T work. Once you add the over piles the dog should understand a back nick

2. Quit sending from your side. Start the dog in front finish position and handle to the back pile from there. This will take the lining and bugging portion out of the situation and vastly reduce your frustration as you have now simplified the task for the dog and will have more success. With some dogs I don't send from my side until the very end of the T work or beginning of pattern field.

3. T work is not just about stopping them exactly on the cross point. Its about teaching them to handle and work with you with a distracting factor of the side piles. Use attrition, not the collar and work them through it. Move up to decrease the distance between you and the dog to help simplify.

4. From a bumper pile ratio perspective I use the following. 10 bumpers at the back pile, 2 at the over piles. I often work with people that treat the T just like the baseball yard drill. I want to ingrain to the dog that I mostly want them to run long and straight. I start building that here. I use two at the bumper piles and then only give one over to each leaving one distraction bumper there for the rest of the session. As the dog really begins to understand I will then start picking both of them up.

5. Stop viewing this as a failure. This is your dog learning, either through success or through failure. High drive dogs sometimes learn more at this stage by having to go through the process of being stopped and made to go where you want them to go. Now is the time to do that, in a controlled situation where you can definitely catch them doing it. 

6. This is your opportunity to improve as a handler by learning how to read your dog, and learn how to make decisions based on what you saw. Is the dog disobeying or confused? How will you handle it. Now is your opportunity to learn.

7. You mention timing. This is an area that is so important to handling a dog. You seem to know and understand what the dog is going to do 
in your post so you should have the whistle in your mouth and be ready to blow it the instant you detect the dog making a decision. Practice talking, walking, breathing, eating err ok not eating, with the whistle in your mouth. a good drill is to put the whistle in your mouth while your driving and sing along with the radio. Please take pics if you try this. 

8. Keep your head in the game. There is no benefit to losing your temper. Anyone that trains a bunch of dogs will tell you that they all have their issues during this stage and many of them behave just like your dog. Relax, breath deep, pick a time of day when your not overly stressed from other life things and train your dog.

9. Keep a training log. Some of the people i work with have a tendency to get frustrated over seemingly not making any progress. Start a log and specifically note what the dog did well, improved on and failed on. once a month go review it. You'll then see the progress, provided you have put in the time with the dog. This will really help your mental aspect.

10. Don't keep the dog on T pattern too long. Do not demand perfection. In most cases I only keep dogs on T patter for 7-10 days. Get some good handling skills, get the dog working with ya and move to the pattern field. The longer you drill this into them in a T pattern field the worse their attitude will get and you'll actually see them regress. If your getting 80+% of their casts correct move on. 

So Carol, there are your 10 tips for the day on working T Pattern. Go have fun with your dog....

guns up....

/Paul


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Dear Paul, will you please move to north central Florida and come help me train my dog?
Signed,
Lowly golden owner willing to practice singing with whistle in mouth


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

You guys are phenomenal. I almost think some of you have been looking over my shoulder

I am printing this entire thread and attaching it to the front of my log book. Along with rereading the Lardy articles, I plan to go over this thread before each session.

Thank heavens we got to go out and set up marks today. I dont think my dog could tolerate one more day of my fumbling around in the yard.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

LOTS of GREAT stuff in /Paul's post. Especially #10.

I think a lot of people dwell on the TT too long trying to get it perfect. They have good intentions and want to be "thorough", but "_thorough_" and "_perfect_" are not the same.

Staying on this drill too long will only bore your dog and sour the attitude. Keep it moving, git-'er-done, and move on. Accomplish the primary purpose and you can finesse the fine points as you move along.

Keep it fun. Remember, YOU know where this whole plan is going so it makes sense to you, but your dog doesn't. 

JS


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> 5. Stop viewing this as a failure. This is your dog learning


The above is from Paul's post and is pure gold.

FF, FTP, and the double T is where disciplined handling retrievers are made. It's not a smooth path but one filled with lots of speed bumps.

Patience and perserverance will get you and your dog through.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I have to update. Since the improvement in weather, and me utilizing all the advice I got here, I think we have turned the corner on the T drill. This morning I got nice straight runs on back to the pile, stopped a few times on the way in and out, and got overs that were followed by a return to the back pile. Dog was happy, I was happy. My natural tendency is to say OK we are done, but do I need to repeat a few more days, weeks, etc? Just for funsies, tonite I did two "site blinds". Dog saw me toss the dummy down at about 150 yds, I walked back and heeled the dog around for a while. Returned to the line, sent and he answered one whistle perfectly on the first one and took a small over to pick up the dummy. The second one he lined. (as usual at warp speed). Do I go back to T for a few more days to reinforce, or move ahead?


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

An extremely helpful post Gun_dog. And, a special thanks for:



> Is the dog disobeying or confused?


Dogs, hell! I spend a good bit of my time confused....


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## waggontail (Oct 10, 2007)

Great question and feed back. These are examples I have utilized.

I like to toggle my position ( and or move to pile and leave pile at receiving). Mix it up, Pep' em up, I try not to stand in cement, movement /gesture possible walking cast. 

As for the intersection, basic I stop two to three feet short and position myself about two feet offsett to over pile ( setting them up for success and not to incourage angle in over etc.) For little more advance and fine whistle work I stop the dog three to four feet deep and working on: hesitation cast, vocal, and tweet tweet over etc..

Force is primarliy omitted on land,  for me. I have encountered and observed many training and handling tendencies on foce to pile and T work resulting in oor momenteum ,popping, no go's , spinning on send or stopping ,and 1/4 or 1/2 turns, no looks, etc.. 

I like giving success in good challenging doses.


Patrick


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

2tall said:


> ......... This morning I got nice straight runs on back to the pile, stopped a few times on the way in and out, and got overs that were followed by a return to the back pile. Dog was happy, I was happy. My natural tendency is to say OK we are done, but do I need to repeat a few more days, weeks, etc? .........


It's very hard to "read a dog" on the internet; you have to do that yourself. 

But from your description, I would give it a rest for a day, do something different to break up the routine and then come back the next day for a proofing. Run just a SHORT session and see if he retained it all.

Then maybe give him another day or 2 away from it and then come back and check him out again. Do everything you can to make it successful. If that goes OK, I would say you're done.

Meantime, run some more of those sight blinds. Sometimes they learn from just letting it "soak in".

JS


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Carol, heres my opinion. I typically do a session every day with the dog. This is a teaching drill where skills are taught through repetition. These dogs can handle at least one session a day and in my experience they make the most progress by consistent sessions daily for 7-10 days. If by day 10 I'm seeing a 80% success rate in the handling portion and good response to the back command with periodic force I move to pattern field where we take the taught skills and put them into a controlled field situation. 

My pattern fields is flat, short grass and mostly featureless. The blinds have good separation and vary in length. (see diagram) I teach 1 leg each day, and repeat the other legs as I go along. By day 4 the dog is picking up 2 bumpers at each leg. They are rough at first, but like T pattern this is teaching. Not a lot of corrections for casting mistakes, use attrition. Don't worry if they line them, again this is about working with you has a handler and taking the casts. Again I run these for 7-10 days. Typically after this the dog is working with me well enough to move to true cold blinds, which in line with the program does not have a lot of casting corrections, but mostly attrition. 











/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Force is primarliy omitted on land, :smile: for me. I have encountered and observed many training and handling tendencies on foce to pile and T work resulting in *:razzor momenteum ,popping, no go's , spinning on send or stopping ,and 1/4 or 1/2 turns, no looks, etc..*


I added the bold.

To me these are the very issues you do FTP, and the double T to face. By not forcing on FTP and the double T where do you address the flaring, no goes, popping, spinning, quiting etc? I like to get these out in the open and deal with them here in yardwork so they don't come back and bite me in the butt later on in training out in the field. If they do come up in the field you have tools you installed in the double T to get you out of trouble. 

The poor momentum that FTP and the double T causes goes away when the dog has a good handle on what is happening. The well forced dog won't look like it's been forced at all.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Howard N said:


> I added the bold.
> 
> To me these are the very issues you do FTP, and the double T to face. By not forcing on FTP and the double T where do you address the flaring, no goes, popping, spinning, quiting etc? I like to get these out in the open and deal with them here in yardwork so they don't come back and bite me in the butt later on in training out in the field. If they do come up in the field you have tools you installed in the double T to get you out of trouble.
> 
> The poor momentum that FTP and the double T causes goes away when the dog has a good handle on what is happening. The well forced dog won't look like it's been forced at all.


I agree Howard. IMHO the momentum problems, popping, spinning etc come when too much physical pressure is applied. Force is not physical its mental. As an extreme example, if you do force to pile and put your TT collar on a high 6, then perform the process perfectly, it will create all these problems even though your doing everything correctly. In probably 90% of the young dogs that I work with, most of them coming off the FF table into walking fetch will have sufficient physical pressure on a TT #2 high, to perform the function. Moving into FTP that typically remains the same and as the couple of weeks go by they will get an "occasional" #3 or #4 to help expose them to the more physical pressure. This helps them learn/understand how to handle the higher pressure. Most of their physical force though is with a high #2 or low/medium #3. People forget that T is also about handling the physical collar pressure properly. Two things come to mind on this topic;

1. Force is applied correctly is more mental then physical - Don Remein
2. All dogs are not created equal. Use only enough physical force to elicit a behavioral change in the dog. If the dog responds to a #2 properly, then why use more? - Mike Lardy.

/Paul


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## waggontail (Oct 10, 2007)

Howard N said:


> I added the bold.
> 
> To me these are the very issues you do FTP, and the double T to face. By not forcing on FTP and the double T where do you address the flaring, no goes, popping, spinning, quiting etc? I like to get these out in the open and deal with them here in yardwork so they don't come back and bite me in the butt later on in training out in the field. If they do come up in the field you have tools you installed in the double T to get you out of trouble.
> 
> The poor momentum that FTP and the double T causes goes away when the dog has a good handle on what is happening. The well forced dog won't look like it's been forced at all.


I respect any feedback, especially Howard you have demostrated a passion for retrievers that sets the standard for what it takes to be a Field Trialer. 


I think primarily could be in bold. By toggle I mean, moving over and the back pile becomes the over, dog is typically facing me ( i have no allways in training). The tendences I think, are the bite in the butt in the field, some refer to as training closet. Simple slow , open minded, training appears to be the best option for me. I learn some from observing dogs, trainers, and hindsight.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

/Paul, I think I am getting about 90% success rate on that particular drill. But I have certainly not got all control issues worked out. I think maybe the pattern you suggested is the next step, but do you really start at those distances?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

2tall said:


> /Paul, I think I am getting about 90% success rate on that particular drill. But I have certainly not got all control issues worked out. I think maybe the pattern you suggested is the next step, but do you really start at those distances?


I do start at those distances. Just like in the pile work, I start close and backup. So here's how I would start a dog.

Day 1. - Put down 8 bumpers at pile 1. Run from 20 yards. As the dog returns backup to 50 yards and send from there. As the dog returns backup to 80 yards. Continue this until you get about 200 yards or so and run whatever amount of bumpers you have left from the full distance. Of course if the dog slows down, verbal back. If the dog seems to struggle move up.

Day 2 - Put 2 bumpers at pile #1 and 6-8 at pile #2. Start with #2 and build it like you did the day before. After running it from the full distance run #1. This will typically generate a ton of handling but since you did it the day before, most dogs will remember the pile and it will click with them. Run out the remaining bumpers.

Day 3 - 2 bumpers at #1 and #2. 6-8 at pile 3. Build it and after fully running the distance run #1, then #2. Finish out the bumpers.

Day 4 - same routine. This is the hardest day because the dog runs more lines of the pattern than any other day. Measure your dogs fatigue and if its too much then cut back to only picking one bumper at each pile.

Day 5 - 2 bumpers at each pile, and run them randomly in any order.

So initially there will be a lot of handling and the dog may seem really confused. Thats ok, your there to help him/her out. If distance is the problem, kick the dog off and start walking after them. That way the continue to run the same distance to the piles, but you cut the distance to maintain control. Do not, I can't say this enough, do not panic if the dog is seemingly struggling. This is where you teach the dog to handle. Keep in mind that casting mistakes are handled via attrition. I very rarely use the collar for casting mistakes on this drill. The only corrections with the collar are for the basics, go/stop/come. Be patient, after a few days the dog will most likely be running the lines with no handling at all. This is good. We want to teach the dog to run long, run straight and if I stop and handle you, it is not a bad thing, just giving you a new line to run. This distances may seem to much, but we want to build in the dog a mentality that it is gong long and far everytime.

/Paul


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

I have kept this thread for 6 1/2 years. Just brought it up and read it again for dog #3. Thank you Paul! You answered my question


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Furball said:


> I have kept this thread for 6 1/2 years. Just brought it up and read it again for dog #3. Thank you Paul! You answered my question


Anney, thanks very much for bumping this! It was a good one that I remember and was glad to see again.

Chris


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree. Very good thread.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

If your dog has been forced to the pile, stops on the whistle and will cast you can forget the T and TT and keep going with DL Walter's drills and end up just as successful.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

And then there's that.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Furball said:


> I have kept this thread for 6 1/2 years. Just brought it up and read it again for dog #3. Thank you Paul! You answered my question


Your most welcome Anney. I enjoyed writing it and glad it has helped.

/Paul


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Thanks Ken Bora, found what i was looking for! There was a time when a newbie’s questions were answered by experienced, knowledgeable and caring fellow trainers. Happily, i am almost ready to start my new pup on this part of training and love having this to refer to. My past journals and such have been lost due to all the moves and travel.


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