# Who would you choose? Goldens



## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

If you could choose any dog that ever lived, who would you want a puppy out of? Just trying to learn more about Goldens that have tested or trialed.


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## Diane Brunelle (Jun 11, 2004)

Are you asking about Sires or Dams?


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Diane Brunelle said:


> Are you asking about Sires or Dams?


Sorry my bad. Either and please feel free to suggest if you would want a sire bred to a certain dam.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

If it was possible I would clone FC-AFC Myoaks Smok'n Zeke. Zeke was just an unbelievaly great dog. Very stylish, intellegent marker and watery. I don't know offhand how many all age points he had, but it was a lot, plus something close to 30 derby points, he had two double headers and was a finalist in the 94 National Amateur. Zeke contracted a cureable cancerbut was tragically killed by an accidental overdose of chemo durring treatment. 

Zeke as great as he was never had the opportunity to pass those genes on to future generations. My first Ft pup was out of Zeke. Topbrass Wildfire Cody MH ***, the dog in my avatar was out of Zeke and posessed many Zeke traits, unbelievable drive, great structure, courage, but alas there was only one Zeke.

If you are talking about alltime great Golden sires I would put two names up for nomination, I would pick Holway Barty back in the 80s and Bro for the last decade.

John


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

Speaker was an awfully good dog, AFC AFTCH Rosehill's Mr. Speaker MH FDHF owned and trained by Lorie Jolly. Another thing with Speaker is that he was OFA Excellent which is rarer than hen's teeth in Goldens.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

J. Walker said:


> Speaker was an awfully good dog, AFC AFTCH Rosehill's Mr. Speaker MH FDHF owned and trained by Lorie Jolly. Another thing with Speaker is that he was OFA Excellent which is rarer than hen's teeth in Goldens.


Actually 4% of goldens submitted to OFA are Exc. Now look what you made me go look up! 
(Fishie is Exc and has produced 2 Exc's)


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Furball said:


> Actually 4% of goldens submitted to OFA are Exc. Now look what you made me go look up!
> (Fishie is Exc and has produced 2 Exc's)


Lol Fisher is gorgeous to boot! Hoping!


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I'm with John.
I also would clone his sister (Ginger).
Sue


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

I was always taken by FC-AFC Sangamo Red. 

I'm not a field trialer but I would sometimes take a day off and drive 2-300 miles to a field trial just to see Harold Bruninga running his Goldens. Over the years, he had several stars but my favorite was Sangamo Red.

Eric


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Wayne where are you?
Sue


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Anyone else have any input? Appreciate those who have so far.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm kind of surprised that no one has mentioned Topbrass Cotton ... and his sire, Holway Barty. Zeke and Sangamo Red died about the same time as Cotton, around '94 and '95 ... so they are somewhat contemporaries of each other. Barty died in 1984.

Most Golden people today can only evaluate the older dogs through their statistics of production. That doesn't really substitute for knowing/seeing a dog work in the flesh. So even though the question included the parameters "who ever lived", people are most likely to refer to dogs whom they knew, or whose immediate offspring they knew (or know). 

Am also surprised that no one has mentioned Wraith's Duncan or Smoke'n Red Devil, names that appear in many pedigrees.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

I like Topbrass Eli, but he is the only great golden that I have seen run. I personally am hoping to get a Jake pup so I can have Eli in the pedigree. Back in the day, he was very patient with a new trainer like me who got to heel him to feel how a real dog heels.


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## J Connolly (Aug 16, 2007)

What about Tangelo's Sidekick? He had 130 aa points.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

*Yankee's Smokin' Red Devil*

I had a pup from him.
Not for the timid or weak of heart.;-)

(the bitch was out of Windbreakers Mighty Mo)

Some others of note;
Tioga Joe
Tigathoe's Kiowa II
Sungold Lad's Talisman
Windbreakers Razz Ma Tazz
Northbreaks Kinike Sir Jim

FC/AFC's all I believe.



stan b


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

The question asked could also include any living dogs, not just dead ones! There are some dogs who did not finish their titles, or have not finished them yet, that might still be candidates.

I actually did have a son of Tigathoe's Kiowa II ... and he taught me more than I taught him  I now own two of his granddaughters. And owned another of his granddaughters that I purchased in 1988. I believe there are two frozen semen breedings left on him.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Luke or Bingo
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=20502

Bingo was one of the youngest MH females, and I have been told she was a ton of dog even a an older age. She produced fabulous dogs.

Luke, as I adore his offspring, and i always say go to the source.


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## 150class (Jul 1, 2003)

Lots of good reading and research as a result of this thread. Keep it going!


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

J. Walker said:


> Speaker was an awfully good dog, AFC AFTCH Rosehill's Mr. Speaker MH FDHF owned and trained by Lorie Jolly. Another thing with Speaker is that he was OFA Excellent which is rarer than hen's teeth in Goldens.


I know a Speaker son. What a nice dog. If for some reason I decided I needed twice the size of dog, that's where I'd go.


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## 150class (Jul 1, 2003)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> The question asked could also include any living dogs, not just dead ones! There are some dogs who did not finish their titles, or have not finished them yet, that might still be candidates.
> 
> I actually did have a son of Tigathoe's Kiowa II ... and he taught me more than I taught him  I now own two of his granddaughters. And owned another of his granddaughters that I purchased in 1988. I believe there are two frozen semen breedings left on him.


I have Freeze and KiowaII in one of my Goldens. Do you have a link to yours? 

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=234406


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

150class said:


> I have Freeze and KiowaII in one of my Goldens. Do you have a link to yours?
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=234406


Ki son
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=581

The granddaughters

Aubrey, dam of my first Ki granddaughter was an awesome producer:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=559

The two present granddaughters (their sire is a littermate to Freeze:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=248226
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=304469


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> The question asked could also include any living dogs, not just dead ones! There are some dogs who did not finish their titles, or have not finished them yet, that might still be candidates.
> 
> I actually did have a son of *Tigathoe's Kiowa II *... and he taught me more than I taught him  I now own two of his granddaughters. And owned another of his granddaughters that I purchased in 1988. I believe there are two frozen semen breedings left on him.


he had a littermate named FC AFC Tigathoes Funky Farquar (Quar), that I had the pleasure to see up close, he was a beautiful male, and was a fabulous marker..but he didnt seem to click like his brothers when it came to breeding..he was a fairly large dog for a Golden


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Yes, Quar was considered the better performer, but never quite produced as well as Ki. And, Ki, was also a good-sized dog, though still only the Standard 24", I believe. Quar was red, but Ki was blonde  I believe that Tonga might have also been a blonde. 

Tonga, the third titled brother wasn't used much. Tonga finished his titles later than the other two.

The 4th titled, Tigathoe's Magic Marker, a female, I was once told, might have been the best of them all. However, she has no OFA #. She was bred once and produced 2 AFCs, and one QAA. Only 5 offspring are shown on k9data.

Ki, as the grandsire of Cotton, is present in MANY of today's field trial Goldens.


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## Golden6824 (Mar 28, 2010)

road kill said:


> *Yankee's Smokin' Red Devil*
> 
> I had a pup from him.
> Not for the timid or weak of heart.;-)
> ...


Ah, not just a Red Devil son, but a pretty tight line breeding on him, as Mighty Mo was a Red Devil son also. Must have had your hands full! :razz:

Red Devil x Razz made many a great dogs. My boy's great grandfather is Mighty Mo


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Golden6824 said:


> Red Devil x Razz made many a great dogs. My boy's great grandfather is Mighty Mo


http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/RedDevilRazz.html

Don't want any Golden from the past, very happy with mine in the present.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Golden6824 said:


> Ah, not just a Red Devil son, but a pretty tight line breeding on him, as Mighty Mo was a Red Devil son also. Must have had your hands full! :razz:
> 
> Red Devil x Razz made many a great dogs. My boy's great grandfather is Mighty Mo


That dog had *NO FEAR!!!*:shock:

I'd love to tell some incredible stories about him.
Think about him most every day!!!

(he was the best dog I ever had!!;-))


*RK*


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

road kill said:


> That dog had *NO FEAR!!!*:shock:
> 
> I'd love to tell some incredible stories about him.
> Think about him most every day!!!
> ...



Which one was your dog, Mighty Mo or Red Devil? And how did you get into labs instead?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Goldenboy said:


> http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/RedDevilRazz.html
> 
> Don't want any Golden from the past, very happy with mine in the present.


I found all four of my FT Goldens on that list of AA Goldens. I really don't want to jinx myself here as I two of my guys are still young, but the other two Topbrass Wildfire Cody MH*** and Topbrass New Millennium *** lived past thirteen. Yoda is laying beside me as I write this. I know that his littermate AFC Topbrass Pawsability if still going strong as a house dog to.

I bring this up because of the Cancer issue and what a roll of the dice that is. Cody's Dad Zeke got lymphoma at age six or seven, Cody's Mom, Hillviews Ready to Smoke also died from cancer at an early age, so we waited thirteen and a half years for the other shoe to drop on Cody. Cody's littermate Topbrass Nanosecond*** died less than a month short of her thirteenth birthday. Vinny the sire of my Yoda and his sister Paws also died of cancer relatively young, yet his offspring Yoda and Paws are going strong at thirteen. I wish I could track down all of the other littermates to see if any or many contracted cancer. 

I know died in the wool Golden lovers that switched to labs purely for the cancer curse. Marie Doherty is one of them. She was so heartbroken to lose her Charlie that she vowed to never go through that again. She switched to Labs, had fair success but not titles with Spring and Lightening, then gave in and bought another Golden superstar. Casey is a field champion at age three and a wonderful dog to watch run.

Like I said it is a roll of the dice and very painfull when you come up short, but so worth it when you have a good one.

John


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> FC AFC Tigathoes Funky Farquar (Quar),


Actually, that would be DC AFC Tigathoe's Funky Farquar. I would take one of him for sure.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

2tall said:


> Which one was your dog, Mighty Mo or Red Devil? And how did you get into labs instead?


Never mind Stan, I saw the post I missed that said your dog was a pup of the two mentioned. Anyway, I was intrigued with the "No Fear" comment. I have one dog that does not seem to value life and limb over whatever it is he wants. Along with all the other traits we worry about passing on, is this crazy bravado one of them?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

2tall said:


> Which one was your dog, Mighty Mo or Red Devil? And how did you get into labs instead?


My dog was out of that breeding.
The bitch was out of Mighty Mo.
The Sire was out of Yankee.
So they were his Grand Parents.

If you pissed that dog off, he would take you apart!!

He would tolerate the collar, but he knew who held the control and if you crossed the line he would come after you!!!

He didn't much care for people.
And you had best not miss a shot at a Duck or Pheasant, he would come back and bump into you and give you the business.

I guided hunts with that dog for over 10 seasons.
I know someone will call BS here, but he NEVER missed a retrieve.
Every bird we shot he came back with a bird.
(although once we shot a hen and he came back with a rooster!!!)

In his prime he would work 2 - 20 bird hunts a day 2 days in a row.

I took him to IA when he was about 6 months old.
The corn was still standing.....everyone put their dogs up.
We let Bam-Bam rock.
He was flippin' birds outa that corn like it was grass.

A rooster flushed and cackled and went over my head in 6' tall corn.
I fired and he folded.
I was a little sad because I thought I wasted a beautiful bird.
A couple seconds later........Bam-Bam came haulin' thru the corn with a full head of steam.
Believe it or not, a couple more seconds and Bam-Bam delivered to hand.
That bird is still in my man-cave.

He jumped a nice buck once, hauled azz across the horizen.
I was heart broken.
We were in IA and I thought I would never find him or see him again, I mean he booked!!!!!
Miles, not yards.

About 5 or 10 minutes later, we were sitting on a berm and Bam-Bam came over the top and sat next to me like nothin ever happened.
He wasn't even panting.

I ran him in a sanctioned Derby at WATKC once.
He was hammering the marks.
It was about 17 degrees or so.
On the last bird he stepped on the mark and was coming back when some shooting strted.
He froze and I saw his eyes light up.
I called he came further, but they shot again.
CRUNCH-CRUNCH----he ate the bird.
And of course he came to a perfect heel.

The first JH he ran at Madsion Retriever club.
My friend Jimmy O was one of the judges.
It was about a 60 yard mark.
Bam-Bam didn't even hit full speed until 85 yards or so.
I think it was about a 1/2 mile later before the jets cooled.
WE still laugh about that one.

Bam-Bam only got a NAHRA Int Title and an SH.
The day he got his SH everyone was quitting because it was pouring.
We were not quitting.
If we went to SoDak/NoDak or IA hunting we wouldn't quit.
He picked up the last blind and I fell to my knees and cried.
He came up to me and licked my face.

We did it.

I didn't know much about this stuff then.
That was a big deal to us.
We did it on our own, no clubs.
There weren't any!

We trained at Cadens Kennels with some other hunters and we had no clue what we were doing.

Bam-Bam went on a hunt at 15 years old and got 1 last rooster.
I have the picture framed in the Man-Cave too.
He died about 3 days later.


Bam-Bam never knew exactly where he was goin, but by God he was going to be the first one there!!!!
He was one hell of a dog!

Sorry to bore you, but the point is there are some damned fine GR's out there.


As far as Labs now?
The guy I bought my last GR from (Greg Brda) sent me to Field of Dreams Kennels.
Brad lafave ask me what I wanted.
I told him I wanted a dog with tons of drive.

Always be careful what you ask for......sometimes you get it.;-)

stan b


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Great story Stan. I would have loved to hunt over Bam, wouldn't want to piss him off though.

John


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

Thanks Stan. I enjoyed reading that. One can tell that you loved and miss Bam.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

road kill said:


> Bam-Bam went on a hunt at 15 years old and got 1 last rooster.
> I have the picture framed in the Man-Cave too.
> He died about 3 days later.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a very fine dog. Post up a picture!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Great stories!!!!


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## Cowtown (Oct 3, 2009)

"Bam-Bam never knew exactly where he was goin, but by God he was going to be the first one there!!!!"

Love those memories and this was my favorite part!

Jeff


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Stan you have my permission to keep telling stories about your goldens!  That goes for anyone else as well! Love the input you have all shared, thanks!


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## bubaylor (Jan 2, 2011)

I don't pretend to know much about Goldens, but I've heard that Rugby was one of the best...

http://www.emberainrugby.net/


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

bubaylor said:


> I don't pretend to know much about Goldens, but I've heard that Rugby was one of the best...
> 
> http://www.emberainrugby.net/


 My Yoda had the bad luck to have to compete against Rugby all through Derby, Qual and All Age. Rugby was hard to beat, that's for sure. Auggie and Carbon were also part of that derby class, I was lucky to get a fourth.

John


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

road kill said:


> Sorry to bore you, but the point is there are some damned fine GR's out there.
> 
> stan b


That was far from boring, Stan. Bore me some more!


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Do any of you Golden people remember a dog named Ben's Enchanted Budweiser? He died on the operating table, trying to determine why he wasn't producing pups. What a loss that was, he was some dog.
> I think Darrel Frisbe owned him? Not sure, it was a long time ago.
> Walt


Yes, I remember Buddy well, out of Darrell's FC-AFC Benjamin Rajah Frisbie. 1981 National Derby Champion. Tragic early death due to anasthesia over-dose, as I recall. Qualified all-age and placed in all-age stake before age 2. Phenomenal marker, fun to watch and train with.


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## clipper (May 11, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> Actually, that would be DC AFC Tigathoe's Funky Farquar. I would take one of him for sure.


My first golden was out of quar. That was in 1974.. I was (and still am) an avid duck hunter. None of us had retrievers... so I ordered a pup from Oklahoma..."patton manor's Peny Ante"... she shows up in some pedigrees. I was armed with a pup and James Lamb Free's book... My friends all made fun of me paying $250 for a little pup... she was incredible.. I still miss her. I ended up breeding her 3 times because my friends now all wanted retrievers.. 
We still have a strong group of trainers in Sedalia, MO and it all started with Penny.
oh yeah, Quar was also a national derby champ.

Greg Bell


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

clipper said:


> My first golden was out of quar. That was in 1974.. I was (and still am) an avid duck hunter. None of us had retrievers... so I ordered a pup from Oklahoma..."patton manor's Peny Ante"... she shows up in some pedigrees. I was armed with a pup and James Lamb Free's book... My friends all made fun of me paying $250 for a little pup... she was incredible.. I still miss her. I ended up breeding her 3 times because my friends now all wanted retrievers..
> We still have a strong group of trainers in Sedalia, MO and it all started with Penny.
> oh yeah, Quar was also a national derby champ.
> 
> Greg Bell


Quar was the National Derby Champ, but his owner had trouble finishing trials and running blinds until she came to live/train in College Station.. his owner Dottie was a fierce competitor and she did a fine job of bringing Quar along to have a very respectable career (52 pts)..the first time I saw him was actually in SoCal at my mother's house and out comes this gorgeous animal from the backyard, and all I could think was , "..is he ours,can we keep him..."..


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## StElmoQn (Oct 20, 2004)

Furball said:


> Actually 4% of goldens submitted to OFA are Exc. Now look what you made me go look up!


I am curious where you went to look up that stat. Can you send a hyperlink?

Just curious because I guess we are in the lucky 4% - our boy not only has excellent hips, but just became a first time MN Qualifier yesterday at the tender age of 3 yrs.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

StElmoQn said:


> I am curious where you went to look up that stat. Can you send a hyperlink?
> 
> Just curious because I guess we are in the lucky 4% - our boy not only has excellent hips, but just became a first time MN Qualifier yesterday at the tender age of 3 yrs.


http://offa.org/stats_hip.html

CONGRATS on your MN pass! Wonderful 
And welcome to that elite 4% haha


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> Quar was the National Derby Champ, but his owner had trouble finishing trials and running blinds until she came to live/train in College Station.. his owner Dottie was a fierce competitor and she did a fine job of bringing Quar along to have a very respectable career (52 pts)..the first time I saw him was actually in SoCal at my mother's house and out comes this gorgeous animal from the backyard, and all I could think was , "..is he ours,can we keep him..."..


About 12-15 years ago I was fortunate to be introduced to Dottie Mikeska at a hunt test south of Houston. I've never seen her since that day. She told the story that when she was trying to finish Quar, she mis-counted his points and shaved him down to return to the field. Then she discovered the error and had to quick find a bunch of 1 point shows to enter in order to accomplish the Ch title.

We were walking along a road near a cattle tank at the test. As we approached a truck with an open tailgate and transom, she stopped and stared at the Golden in the truck. Then she called her husband over and pointed to the truck. He stared as well. I asked what was wrong. They said nothing was wrong but that they were taken by how much the Golden in the truck resembled Quar. The truck was owned by Jim Pickering and the dog was his first Golden, don't recall the name.

Eric


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## Golden6824 (Mar 28, 2010)

We're in that top 4% too! 

Figures I got him neutered and didn't collect.


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

Yankee hands down. Trained with him, threw a bunch of birds for him. Awesome dog!!
Course there is a more than a little bias in my opinion.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

This has been a great discussion regarding favorite old Goldens. I thought I would post a link to Jackie Merten's page on famous old field Golden's. There are some pretty cool stories.

http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/history.htm

Here's a link to an article about Topbrass Cotton. http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/cottonFTNews.jpg
(I guess it's just the cover for the article)

I remember talking on the phone with Jackie about some training issues I was having with Cody and I asked about Cotton. He just happened to be laying on the kitchen floor beside her as we were talking. I don't know if she was just watching him for the Finley's but it was pretty cool to have that little connection to history.

John


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I have never had the urge to own a Golden but I would have found a spot for this one....

FC-AFC Windbreaker's Mighty Mo, he was a high powered little guy, 2X national finalist owned by Stan and Jerri Heiner

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1511


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

EdA said:


> I have never had the urge to own a Golden but I would have found a spot for this one....
> 
> FC-AFC Windbreaker's Mighty Mo, he was a high powered little guy, 2X national finalist owned by Stan and Jerri Heiner
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1511



Here's a little blurb on Mo from Jackie Merten's site.
http://www.topbrass-retrievers.com/mightymo.htm


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

There will be a long article about the "Tigathoe Four" in the Nov/Dec Field Theme Issue of the Golden Retriever News.

In the Sept/Oct issue, there will be an article about some of the Great Goldens of the Past.

I have been researching some of the famous field Goldens from days gone by, and it has been fun. But----in some cases the info, especially personal input, is sadly missing. If any of you have stories, photos, etc. on some of the great Goldens that "used to be", please would you contact me privately at [email protected] and let me know. I am hoping to include this segment on a regular basis.

Thank you. I appreciate any information I can get.

Glenda Brown


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

EdA said:


> I have never had the urge to own a Golden but I would have found a spot for this one....
> 
> FC-AFC Windbreaker's Mighty Mo, he was a high powered little guy, 2X national finalist owned by Stan and Jerri Heiner
> 
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=1511


I think this is a good opening to bring up Carol Snodgrasse's Ruby (Ruby Redfish Mo's Mountain Gem***) http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=318470

She's a very nice five year old bitch out Mo's frozen semen she just won an Open handled by Rob Erhardt. I watch this dog a lot in training and she has it all, good marker, very stylish and watery, plus she's quite affectionate. She even looks like a female Mo. (Carol you need to add a picture of Ruby to your K9Data page).

John


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Sorry off topic.
Is there anymore of Mo's frozen?
Sue


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Sorry off topic.
> Is there anymore of Mo's frozen?
> Sue


I don't know how much if any is left. You would have to contact Scott Heiner in Idaho. I think it's pretty cool to be able to go back in time for this kind of breeding, like Jurrasic Park. 

My wife and I have discussions about whether a certain fantastic dog from the past would be dominate today if you could bring him or her here with a time machine. In other words, has breeding improved the overall breed, to the point that even an average FT dog today could beat that wonderful old dog, assuming equal-modern training. While we're fantasizing about time machines, I would love to take my modern trained retriever back in time to say the 1960 National.

BTW I believe a fantastic dog from the past would do well today with today's training methods. I believe training methods have improved more than the breed has improved. That's just my unscientific, unproven opinion.

John


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## GLDNS4C (Jul 12, 2009)

O.K. John....you finally prompted me to learn how to post a picture on K9data.
Not too difficult even for the technologically challenged like me. Ruby now has some pics online. 

Carol


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Sue Kiefer said:


> Sorry off topic.
> Is there anymore of Mo's frozen?
> Sue


It is my understanding that there was only one more breeding with Mo's semen after Ruby Redfish and it was to the same bitch. We have a female out of that last breeding, Master's A Fine Time Lucille who is a full sister to Ruby. She is currently running MH and has 3 passes. She is also the golden I mentioned in another thread that had to have an ACL repaired due to running full blast on a retrieve and stepping in a gopher hole with a thorn in the bottom of it. To my knowledge, I believe I was told that there is no more left, but secrets are sometimes kept. 

Arleen


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> In other words, has breeding improved the overall breed, to the point that even an average FT dog today could beat that wonderful old dog, assuming equal-modern training. While we're fantasizing about time machines, I would love to take my modern trained retriever back in time to say the 1960 National.


Interesting thought, John.

I think that many of the "old" dogs would do very well with today's training techniques. But it would be even more fascinating to see how a modern dog would do against the old-timers.

It does make one wonder if we've made as much progress in the genes as in the training techniques.


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

GLDNS4C said:


> O.K. John....you finally prompted me to learn how to post a picture on K9data.
> Not too difficult even for the technologically challenged like me. Ruby now has some pics online.
> 
> Carol


That is one beautiful red bitch. She looks fast!


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I think that it is both.
The training programs and equipment ( e-collar) is soooooooooooo much better. When I started training yrs. ago. I had what they call now the "trashbreaker" to collar condition. There was 1 button and the levels where called "keys" colored (from 1-5). Green was what you collar-conditioned your dog. (5). 
Marking is better.
I'm smarter Thank Goodness. Poor Ginger. If she had a better handler back then.
Sue


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## Chris Rosier (Dec 27, 2008)

Not really on topic but reading RK's post made me think about this....

I was looking at a picture of a Golden that crossed the bridge on another forum last night and my 4YO walked up beside me and said, "Dad, I miss Jake. Can we get anudder puppy wike dat?" Jake died about a year and half ago and he still asks about him. Jake claimed that youngin the day we brought him home from the hospital. Jake was almost ten at the time but he was like a shadow, as soon as Ryan could walk, he followed him around like it was his job to keep an eye on him. They did everything together. One of the hardest things Ive ever had to do was tell Ryan he had to tell Jake goodbye. Im tearing up now thinking about it. I havent wanted another one, until now. Might be a good thing to ask Santa for.....

I love my black dog, but I miss my Goldens. You Golden folks know what Im talking about.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Sue Kiefer said:


> I think that it is both.
> The training programs and equipment ( e-collar) is soooooooooooo much better. When I started training yrs. ago. I had what they call now the "trashbreaker" to collar condition. There was 1 button and the levels where called "keys" colored (from 1-5). Green was what you collar-conditioned your dog. (5).
> Marking is better.
> I'm smarter Thank Goodness. Poor Ginger. If she had a better handler back then.
> Sue


I trained my first dog with the "Judge", sounds like the collar you are talking about. Sometimes I cringe at some of the stuff I did back then. Thank God Golden's are resilient and forgiving. Kimo became a great dog in spite of me.

John


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Chris Rosier said:


> Not really on topic but reading RK's post made me think about this....
> 
> I was looking at a picture of a Golden that crossed the bridge on another forum last night and my 4YO walked up beside me and said, "Dad, I miss Jake. Can we get anudder puppy wike dat?" Jake died about a year and half ago and he still asks about him. Jake claimed that youngin the day we brought him home from the hospital. Jake was almost ten at the time but he was like a shadow, as soon as Ryan could walk, he followed him around like it was his job to keep an eye on him. They did everything together. One of the hardest things Ive ever had to do was tell Ryan he had to tell Jake goodbye. Im tearing up now thinking about it. I havent wanted another one, until now. Might be a good thing to ask Santa for.....
> 
> I love my black dog, but I miss my Goldens. You Golden folks know what Im talking about.


Your story brought a tear to my eye. We don't have kids but my wife's young nephew CJ used to stay with us a couple weeks every summer. I remember with a warm heart how our old Cody just attached himself to this little boy as they went exploring together. Cody even slept on CJ's bed at night. There is some kind of special bond between a boy and his dog.

I know what you mean about Golden's.

John


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Chris Rosier said:


> Not really on topic but reading RK's post made me think about this....
> 
> I was looking at a picture of a Golden that crossed the bridge on another forum last night and my 4YO walked up beside me and said, "Dad, I miss Jake. Can we get anudder puppy wike dat?" Jake died about a year and half ago and he still asks about him. Jake claimed that youngin the day we brought him home from the hospital. Jake was almost ten at the time but he was like a shadow, as soon as Ryan could walk, he followed him around like it was his job to keep an eye on him. They did everything together. One of the hardest things Ive ever had to do was tell Ryan he had to tell Jake goodbye. Im tearing up now thinking about it. I havent wanted another one, until now. Might be a good thing to ask Santa for.....
> 
> I love my black dog, but I miss my Goldens. You Golden folks know what Im talking about.


I do know what you mean about not wanting another one but maybe now is the time. That was how I felt when I lost my golden Charlie. I loved him too much and couldn't face going through it again. However 4 year ago I saw a breeding that I something told me to get one if one was avaiable. Melanie had another litter also due a week later that I could have first pick. I said no I want this litter. Well to make a long story short I got Casey who has been a joy from the day he arrived in Missoula,MT He is now FC Firemark Rackem and Stackem Casey. I am loading up the truck and trailer and heading to Nilan,CA on Sunday to see Casey. He has been running trials. I don't do the real long trips anymore. Good luck with your new Golden.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

This is a fascinating thread. Two questions:

1. I notice some of the Handjem Goldens bred by Mike Lardy's father in some of the linked pedigrees. Has Mike handled/trained many Goldens recently? (Haven't been following that closely re: FT trainers/accomplishments.)

2. Lab people seem to always be discussing  the merits of one color over another. About 20 years back, a Golden fancier I knew quite well, who was also a BIG fan of Holway Barty, said she preferred 'redder' Goldens. Is that a peculiarity for her or has there been a general preference among Field Golden folk for 'redder' Goldens?


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

kindakinky said:


> This is a fascinating thread. Two questions:
> 
> 2. Lab people seem to always be discussing  the merits of one color over another. About 20 years back, a Golden fancier I knew quite well, who was also a BIG fan of Holway Barty, said she preferred 'redder' Goldens. Is that a peculiarity for her or has there been a general preference among Field Golden folk for 'redder' Goldens?


The red color of most field Goldens could be associated with their talents. If that color coincidentally is predominant in talented field Goldens, then it very likely that it might be assumed that most of the talented dogs are of that color. 

That does not necessarily mean that the color (however it is genetically transmitted) is the *cause* of the field talent. There may, or may not, be some genetic link between color and talent.

I knew Ki; he was blond. I believe his brother, Tonga, was also lighter. I never saw Barty, Cotton, Mandy, Bro, or Duncan. From photos it appears that they were lighter in color, not dark red. (but photos can be deceiving). I could be wrong since I'm only going by photos, so I'd be interested in hearing from those who knew these dogs.

It probably isn't a good idea to "discard" what appears to be a good puppy or adult, if they just happen to be blonde. I happen to find the lighter colors appealing visually, but a so-so lighter puppy can't make me keep it v. a red puppy that has more promise in attitude & natural ability.I personally don't like "platinum" color that has no hint of gold & looks chalky. 

I CAN see a reason for preference in color for hunting purposes. When "picking up" after a tower shoot, I noticed how my red dog blended with the cover & became almost invisible in the particular tall grass in that location. In some other location, a lighter dog might have the better camoflage. This might influence a hunter's preference for his hunting dog's color for waterfowl hunting. For upland hunting, he might prefer a dog that was more visible against the color of the cover. 

Preferred color in hunt tests & field trials might be for the color that is most visible at longer distances ... provided the dog has the ability to go the long distances 

When the occasional light colored dog is introduced to a breeding program, then one will tend to get both light and dark puppies. Sometimes two red parents will produce light puppies; and vice-versa.

If I had to guess, it would seem that the darker colors may be "dominant" genetically when it comes to the gene pool for Goldens who specialize in field pursuits; and the lighter colors may be recessive & that is why they occur less often?

Over time, the lighter color became associated with "show lines", but over the past ten years the red color has regained popularity there. 

Well, yes, I guess my avatar is a dead giveaway ... that I have produced blond Goldens  ... but I can honestly say that the color of that dog is NOT the reason that his owner loves his boy.


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## M. Robinson (Apr 13, 2011)

Chris Rosier said:


> Not really on topic but reading RK's post made me think about this....
> 
> I was looking at a picture of a Golden that crossed the bridge on another forum last night and my 4YO walked up beside me and said, "Dad, I miss Jake. Can we get anudder puppy wike dat?" Jake died about a year and half ago and he still asks about him. Jake claimed that youngin the day we brought him home from the hospital. Jake was almost ten at the time but he was like a shadow, as soon as Ryan could walk, he followed him around like it was his job to keep an eye on him. They did everything together. One of the hardest things Ive ever had to do was tell Ryan he had to tell Jake goodbye. Im tearing up now thinking about it. I havent wanted another one, until now. Might be a good thing to ask Santa for.....
> 
> I love my black dog, but I miss my Goldens. You Golden folks know what Im talking about.


I found my first Golden in 1983 via a recommendation from my folks' neighbour, who was heavy into obedience. I picked him up as a 7 week old when I was 8 1/2 months pregnant. That dog and that baby were soul mates, along with every other child in the street. He stood vigil, herded when necessary and always wedged himself in the middle of any perceived threat....for all children. Come to think of it, he was staying with my best friend for a few days...... Dusty loved her but did not know her husband, so he did what he did best...did an intervention when they got 'frisky' one night. 

This wonderful dog was a gentleman every day of his life, just a pet, but oh my....he was smart and easy. 

IF ONLY I HAD KNOWN WHAT I HAD>>>>>here is the pedigree that I was oblivious to:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=53600
Butter Up was a Cotton littermate.

He lived to 15 and I still tear up thinking about how wonderful he was. 
BUT.......he led me to Jackie M. and Silk. What an ambassador for the breed.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Outstanding thread..

Geeeez. Medie ......  Just goes to show the the great temperment in a well-bred FT Golden Retriever.

I also enjoyed the posts regarding Red Devil. ..and great appreciation and understanding for the dog (handler stepping over the line). Brought some tears. Thanks for posting, Stan B. ..and the great stories..

"Bam Bam's" registered name?..just which pup is he..on K9Data..looked but it would be a lot easier to just ask!

Gerry....your last post is absolutely outstanding.... 

Finally to my computer..this thread is so enjoyable and educational...enlightening etc etc

Judy


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Here is a thread I started about field golden color. In case you may have missed it.
http://retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72150


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm not a "golden person", but I do know really good dog work when I see it. I was fortunate enough to run against and judge a few times... John and Janice Gunn's Boomer FC AFC FTCH AFTCH Can OTCH TNT's Explosion Am UD FDHF OS; Can FDHF OBHF . I would think he has to be in any discussion of great goldens. He did great work at a high level for a long time, in several different games. He won an all-age stake I judged once and not only were his marks great, but he hit the water on the water blind like he was going for a flyer. By the way, at that trial, all the big Northwest greats were there, Carbon, Creek Robber etc... When Boomer was on, he could run with anyone, which was most of the time... An all around fine dog.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

huntinman said:


> I'm not a "golden person", but I do know really good dog work when I see it. I was fortunate enough to run against and judge a few times... John and Janice Gunn's Boomer FC AFC FTCH AFTCH Can OTCH TNT's Explosion Am UD FDHF OS; Can FDHF OBHF . I would think he has to be in any discussion of great goldens. He did great work at a high level for a long time, in several different games. He won an all-age stake I judged once and not only were his marks great, but he hit the water on the water blind like he was going for a flyer. By the way, at that trial, all the big Northwest greats were there, Carbon, Creek Robber etc... When Boomer was on, he could run with anyone, which was most of the time... An all around fine dog.


Thanks so much for posting this. I wanted a Boomer pup based on his accomplishments and honestly-I liked the look of him. But, it's always good to read posts from someone like you who, as you said, judged and ran against him. To know he won a trial with very stiff competition also says a lot.

I only saw Boomer once-at the Golden Specialty in Gettysburg. Not only was I impressed by his performance and his very much being in tune with John, but something else sealed the deal for me that confirmed that I wanted a pup from him. John & Janice had all their dogs out together and not one hint of animosity among the bunch & everyone intact. Boomer had a very sweet disposition and I think he passed that trait along, as well as intelligence. He was just a very fine dog.

M


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Lynn Nelson just got an Amateur second at Lost Hills with her nice Boomer pup Rio. Rio also has earned his Canadian FTCH an AFTCH titles.


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## DougM (May 5, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:


> About 12-15 years ago I was fortunate to be introduced to Dottie Mikeska at a hunt test south of Houston. I've never seen her since that day. She told the story that when she was trying to finish Quar, she mis-counted his points and shaved him down to return to the field. Then she discovered the error and had to quick find a bunch of 1 point shows to enter in order to accomplish the Ch title.
> 
> We were walking along a road near a cattle tank at the test. As we approached a truck with an open tailgate and transom, she stopped and stared at the Golden in the truck. Then she called her husband over and pointed to the truck. He stared as well. I asked what was wrong. They said nothing was wrong but that they were taken by how much the Golden in the truck resembled Quar. The truck was owned by Jim Pickering and the dog was his first Golden, don't recall the name.
> 
> Eric


That test may have been where I met you, Eric. I know I met Dottie at about that time, as she was quite active on the HT scene then.

Jim Pickering's first Golden was named Jake (AFC Adair Jake Pickering CDX TD MH). Somewhere back in my archives, I have photos of Jim and Jake - in costume - at a Halloween party held by the Greater Houston Golden Retriever Club, must have been in the early 1990s. Jim...might not be too happy if I posted those. :razz: Jim finished Jake's AFC himself, a stunning accomplishment given that he was Jim's first competition dog.

Man, what a trip down memory lane this thread has been, just reading the names and pondering the pedigrees. We currently own two Barty grandkids, from a frozen semen breeding we did to Mercedes Hitchcock's Gus, who was a Quar grandson. Our bitch was a Pardner/Aubrey granddaughter, and we got amazing personality in those dogs. We kept two, and the third is a FEMA-certified USAR dog attached to Texas Task Force 1.

Earlier this year, we bred our Barty granddaughter to a Speaker son. Wow! The bitch puppy we kept is showing a TON of drive, great water attitude, and can focus better than any 6-month old puppy I've ever known. We're pondering running her in trials, at least at the Derby/Qual level, if we can devote enough time to her training.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Pictures would be a delight!! ...and wish Mr. Pickering would jump in!!

Judy


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

What a good thread! I've been trying to think of what dogs I would like to have had a pup from and that's not easy! I'd want way too many. I would have loved a couple more Red Devil pups--the two we had were pretty special. When Nell was young, she was a bit lighter in color and turned darker as she aged. The picture of her in K9 data is too light to show her proper color. Apache was always red. In fact, when we bought him, we called him the "Little Red Coyote"--he was 15 lbs of dog and about 40 lbs of heart. 
One of my favorite dogs from way back when was FC Sir Arthur. He was trained at Random Lake by Ray Sommers & was so exciting to watch. He spun circles to the line, on the line, and back! Always wondered if he'd been bred to one of the top bitches of the day what those pups would have been like.
We had a son (big and red) by FC/AFC Stilrovin Luke Adew and a bitch named Roxanne of Arborvita. We were so green back then we had no idea what we owned and should have sold him when offered a huge sum of money by Luke Adew's owner. But we didn't and he became our primary hunting dog when we returned to California--stupid, stupid because he had Dual CH written all over him...so would have loved to have another Luke son. 
Might have gotten lucky twice.
Then there was Markin Misfire--WOW! She was a Kiowa daughter & Barty Granddaughter. Very laid back girl in the truck, but take her to the line and she was awesome. Her truckmate was Topbrass Markin Masterpiece and he was a real pleasure to watch. They were both blonde and neither of them were ever bred. I would have been thrilled to own a pup from either of them. 

Glenda should have a bunch of outstanding goldens from yesteryear coming up in her future articles for GRCA News. Many of those early goldens were pretty dark in color and the breed dogs were much closer in looks to the field dogs then than they are today. 

Insofar as color, I've always preferred the darker golden because they're much easier to find in light colored cover. 

Suzanne B


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## DougM (May 5, 2008)

Judy Chute said:


> Pictures would be a delight!! ...and wish Mr. Pickering would jump in!!
> 
> Judy


Here you go, Judy, taken November, 1992:










Jim was still doing obedience and tracking with Jake at that time, but his true calling was field trials.

Another magnificent Golden was AFC Topbrass Gifford of Valhaven, owned by our friends Mary Maurer and Kim Martin. I don't think Gif was ever bred, but I do know he picked up _literally_ thousands of birds during the years Kim guided waterfowl hunts in Idaho and on the prairies west of Houston. The picture on Jackie's web page (see link), taken by a sports writer for the Houston Chronicle while hunting with Kim and Gif, stands out in my mind as one of the finest images of a hunting Golden Retriever ever taken.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

DougM said:


> That test may have been where I met you, Eric. I know I met Dottie at about that time, as she was quite active on the HT scene then.


I believe so. I think Anne was running your dog.

I have fairly vivid memories of that test. There were about 50 entries in JH and only 19 were carried to water. Of the 19, 18 passed. The one failure was my dog JD. I don't know what happened as he refused to enter the water. Only thing I could think of is that I had him lined up wrong so he didn't see the bird or somehow was confused. <shrug>

The next day he was fine on what was really a bit of a harder test.

Eric


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Thank you, Doug!!! What a great surprise this AM!!

...I have looked at that picture of AFC TOPBRASS GIFFORD OF VALHAVEN many times. Very, very handsome and his his longeivity is outstanding as well. 

Great to see Suzanne post up as well. Eric's notes..and so many others...this thread should be in a GRCA Archive of some sort??? It is a great read.

Judy

Hey "M"

..per Suzanne..."FC Sir Arthur. He was trained at Random Lake by Ray Sommers & was so exciting to watch. He spun circles to the line, on the line, and back.."

....a sign of greatness?!!


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

I am so glad I started this thread! Learning alot about the older goldens. Thanks everyone!


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

For a hunt test dog, I was always struck by the relationship and production of Nancy Miner and KC's High Times Rollin' Gold. In anyone else's hands, Buddy might not have done so well. In Nancy's hands he was awesome. I've forgotten the number of straight MH passes but it was sizeable....50 maybe?

Eric


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## DougM (May 5, 2008)

A great hunt test/FT Golden that I was fortunate enough to get to know very well was Adirondac Code Red MH *** WCX OS. Steve Low bought Cody to "have something to do in retirement." Cody passed 23 Master tests without a single failure, then went on to field trials and took an Amateur 2nd and an Open 3rd. Cody's offspring include at least 3 QAA dogs and one MH (my bitch Peri). Watching Steve run Cody was always totally cool, as they shared a bond I've seen between very few dog-handler teams.

<Steve, you are sorely missed...>


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## DougM (May 5, 2008)

J Connolly said:


> What about Tangelo's Sidekick? He had 130 aa points.


Pardner was a spectacularly accomplished Golden. His maternal grandsire was Bainin of Caernac CD *** OS, a dog that shows up in an awful lot of great field trial Golden pedigrees. His paternal grandsire was Bozo (FC-AFC Chief Sands OS FDHF), another iconic FT Golden. Behind Bozo was Lad (FC-AFC Misty's Sungold Lad CDX OS FDHF), who racked up >212 AA points.


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