# Bill Hillman



## Chad Westfall (Jun 30, 2009)

I've read some people using Hillmans puppy video then switching to another program after the puppy video. Just wondering if that was common for folks who start out with hillman then switch? I've started the puppy program and am pleased so far but at some point I need to start thinking about the next steps.... the only turn off about the hillman videos are the cost, it seems I can get Lardy and a few other respectable programs much cheaper. I know both are good programs and I'm not trying to be a tightwad but just wanted some thoughts.

thanks in advance

FYI I live in central wv so we will not be running any trials, possibly will run some hunt tests. My priority are good all around pet around the house (already on a good track for that) and a hunting retriever.


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## Purpledawg (Jul 16, 2006)

HI 
Each program works as the trainers are top notch. Though for what it's worth Hilmann has a bit more hands on videos probably more approachable for hunt test program person.


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

I think I've posted this before, but I believe the biggest reason people "switch" to another program, is that when Hillmann's (original) puppy video first came out (a few years ago now), he did not have any other material available, and "what next" was a question commonly asked on RTF. The most common answer, was probably "Lardy". When that question is asked, and answered repeatedly, people assume those folks before them are switching due to a specific reason, but I personally believe it is simply because Hillmann's advanced material didn't exist previously, and as you know, if you repeat something on the internet enough times, it becomes gospel! 

Now, that's not to take anything away from Lardy, as recommending his material is always solid advice. However, if you like Bill's puppy video, don't feel the need to change horses mid-stream, as his Fundamentals, and now Advanced material is a very solid approach to training your pup, in the continued philosophy and style of the Puppy video.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I used the Hillmann puppy DVD and purchased TRT2 and both of Hillmann's fundamentals DVDs. I followed TRT with regards to the flowchart. However, in some instances it is difficult to do certain drills and set-ups the way Lardy does it because he trains with multiple bird boys. What I love about Hillmann is he does everything thing training alone. If I needed an idea on how to accomplish something and I had to do it alone I would use Hillmann. 

My pup is now a year and a half and training at a finished level. She obtained her HR in straight passes and very clean tests. We will be running finished tests this fall. 

I know that's not the most impressive accomplishment by any stretch of the imagination but she's my first dog to train for HTs. 

If I was you I'd buy both!...but I pretty much like to buy all the material I can without getting into to much trouble with the wife..haha


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This is an interesting thread in that for years I had trained all my "mostly" hunting dogs with a Carr based process. Testing was done to
reach a Senior title and one earned an MH. So I finally got old and decided with what may be my last pup to try something a bit different. 
As a retired teacher, I was well aware of the fact that text books for chemistry and physics changed dramatically over the years. However,
the subject matter did not. This may seem like a complicated segue to dog training, but it works for me. 

Therefore, I decided to go completely over to a different way to train and went with Hillmann. I lucked out and almost immediately had a very 
good mentor plus "Mountain Duck" provided some much needed input along the way.

So it has been three years with the "experiment". At first, it was difficult to wean my myself off pressure oriented teaching. Two concepts 
kept my primary motivations in gear. First was *accepting* the idea that solid conditioned responses required much more repetition than I
had ever envisioned. The second was accepting full responsibility for how my dog was learning "stuff". If things were not going well then I was
the one who needed to change things up. To make this more definitive, that would be true for any program. It's not the dog is not easy to 
truly accept. 

However, the factor that tends to get in the way of taking responsibility is energized by premise that pressure is cool. There is often the drug
like effect of wielding the power to control situations. In addition, finesse is not exactly a strong trait in today's society. "My way or the highway"
seems to be acceptable. Therefore, I must admit that switching purely to Hillmann's program in a way "forced" me to use more finesse. It took
me awhile, but I have been persistent. I am fairly certain that if using a Carr based program I would be more effective "now". Mostly because of 
having a different mind set about teaching. For the new trainer pressure is not an easy tool to manipulate. 

In a side note, many years ago there was a phrase that went like this "If you can't teach a dog without an e-collar.....more than likely you won't
be able to to so with one". Hillmann uses the e-collar, but you "can't crank it up." The trainer is forced to teach. 

It helped to have a smart, dynamic young pup that required finesse. We are continuing with Hillmann's Advanced Training. I really like where "we"
are today. Training continues to be fun, exciting and rewarding. 

Almost 77 years old regards, Jim


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## Nathan85 (May 23, 2016)

Last year we took home our first puppy. I started her with Hillmann and bought materials from Lardy and Hillmann. After a lot of back and forth about where to go after Training a Retriever puppy, I went with TRT2. I don't regret it and I'm very happy with her. Recently she passed her JH tests 3/3 and she is getting decent at cold blinds. I know that isn't a brag around here, but it was a huge deal to me. When I picked her up from the breeder, I didn't know much if anything about training a retriever and 366 days later we earned a title. As happy as I am with my dog, I will be going all in with Hillmann on my next pup this fall.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Here's a question I've never seen really answered. In Hillmann's program, what is the course of action if a dog is at a distance on a blind(or handling on a mark) and gives multiple cast refusals/scallops/etc? If you never correct the dog, how do you deal with this situation, and it WILL happen at some point. 

I believe in Hillmann's methodology. I use his puppy training exclusively and also much of his marking development training. I am very seriously considering purchasing the advanced training program. Another concern I have for someone who trains part-time is the amount of repetition required. Seems like it may take much longer to achieve comparable levels of training. 

My current pup I am training was transitioned from Hillmann puppy to Lardy. He's 13 months old and already has a seasoned pass and is working in training at a finished level. Running 300 yd land blinds and 200 yd water blinds. Does well with concepts like down the shore, angle entries/exits, etc. Marking well out to 300 yds on land and 200 on water. I plan on running him in HRC Finished tests in the fall and hopefully AKC master next spring.

Again, this is just a question, not a criticism. I absolutely love the Hillmann puppy material and his marking training. I also really like Lardy's methods for advanced training(along with supplementation from Dennis Voigt and others). I also don't see the vast difference between the 2 methodologies that others see. I see much more similarities than differences(at least from the Hillmann material that I've seen). Both strive to teach first, reinforce, simplify when needed. I guess the biggest difference would be in method of correction(goes back to first question above).


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## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

bamajeff said:


> Here's a question I've never seen really answered. In Hillmann's program, what is the course of action if a dog is at a distance on a blind(or handling on a mark) and gives multiple cast refusals/scallops/etc? If you never correct the dog, how do you deal with this situation


Can't wait to hear some answers! Really leaning toward the full Hillman program for my next pup.


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## Nathan85 (May 23, 2016)

In Hillmann's latest video, he uses corrections, just not high intensity continuous burns. 

I've only skimmed through the latest material, so I don't want to write something here that is incorrect as I haven't fully grasped the content yet.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Nathan85 said:


> In Hillmann's latest video, he uses corrections, just not high intensity continuous burns.


I never use high intensity continuous burns with Lardy's program either. I have seen trainers that are 'collar happy'(probably a big reason Carr-based programs get a bad name according to some), but Lardy says that you should use only enough correction to get the change in behavior and frequently give the dog the benefit of the doubt when deciding on correction. Never use a high 5 when a medium 3 will get the job done.


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## Nathan85 (May 23, 2016)

I trained my dog using TRT2 and his CC video and don't use high continuous burns, either. Bill's approach is a little different than Lardy's from what I can see, but the programs have a lot in common.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_In Hillmann's program, what is the course of action if a dog is at a distance on a blind(or handling on a mark) and gives multiple cast refusals/scallops/etc._ 

There is more than one way to deal with this. I used Hillmann's approach this time and it was different than what I had done with my previous dogs. Never really 
had issues with my dogs running blinds and handling. Basically, handling requires teaching. It is not so much the process but the teacher/trainer. I've used Lardy's
approach and Danny Farmer's (both are different). 

Hillmann's approach includes several steps including the process described in the following link. A young dog learns to take long casts and carry them. It was a
first time for me and I found it easy to implement.........and evidently effective. It is more about the trainer than the process. The next pup (if there is one)
will use Hillmann's method. 

So what is the "course of action"? Go back and do it right (whatever program) from the beginning. What one gets is what one taught (or not). Just simply do
it right.  

https://www.kwicklabsii.com/star-drill---handling.html


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

That still doesn't answer the question on what you do 'at that moment' in the field when the dog chooses to do the wrong thing. I realize if a dog is having trouble consistently that you'll need to review fundamental drills, but for an intermediate/advanced dog who understands what a cast means but is still giving in to suction(old fall, wind, terrain, etc. I don't know that in that case 'going back to the beginning' is the most effective. Say for instance you have an intermediate to advanced dog on a down the shore water blind who is giving in to the bank and gives you several cast refusals and/or scallops, do you call him in and start over at square 1 with de-cheat drills and/or water patter blinds? Do you let him run the bank to the blind? Because at that moment, you only have 3 options: 1.) Call the dog in 2.) Correct the dog with the collar and try to continue 3.) Give in to the dog and let him on the bank. At this point we have tried attrition and failed. 

Another example would be a dog you are trying to cast out of an old fall or scent from the flyer station and you are giving a right over and he goes dead left. The dog understands what a right over is, but chooses to go left due to the temptation of the old fall/scent. You have a few more options here because you're on land and can walk out to the dog and simplify, but the principle is the same.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I haven't seen his latest stuff yet but one way he addresses some of those issues bamajeff is that he teaches the dog to run straight by doing a lot of what he calls "single point blinds". He runs blind to a single known spot from multiple locations with factors. He said in his seminar that he very rarely if at all runs true cold blinds. This helps to not have cast refusals, fight factors and builds a lot of confidence. I'm not sure if that's what he is still teaching but that's what he said during a seminar about 1.5 years ago.

That doesn't answer your question exactly but I think that's because Hillmann would try to not ever get into that situation.

However, I have seen Hillmann with my own eyes give a decent correction to a high drive dog who wouldn't heel. He was working with a dog to fix a specific problem that I think he would say wouldn't have had the problem in the first place if taught the correct way to begin with.

He will also give a higher correction for no gos....but again I think he would say you shouldn't ever get a no go to begin with.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"but for an intermediate/advanced dog who *understands what a cast means* but is still giving in to suction(old fall, wind, terrain, etc.)"_

In the described situation, what do you think the e-collar can do?


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

bamajeff said:


> Here's a question I've never seen really answered. In Hillmann's program, what is the course of action if a dog is at a distance on a blind(or handling on a mark) and gives multiple cast refusals/scallops/etc? If you never correct the dog, how do you deal with this situation, and it WILL happen at some point.


You reinforce the "sit" command via the collar. Also known (in this case) as indirect pressure. You can whistle the dog back in a few steps, then give multiple sit whistle blasts in conjunction with your reinforcement nick. It's not really any different, than other program's use of indirect pressure, but I think Bill would tell you to use multiple lower nicks, as opposed to the one "Big" one. If you're still not getting a change of behavior, you should probably re-visit your fundamentals. 

I think the idea that there are not corrections in Hillmann's method is false. The idea is to "generally" avoid corrections if possible by reinforcing a command the dog is doing, but yes obviously the dog will make mistakes, and when the collar is used in that instance, you are giving a correction, as opposed to a reinforcement. The idea is to teach/practice and reinforce at lower levels, BUT there are still instances where higher nicks are warranted, and are indeed described in Bill's material.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Mountain Duck said:


> You reinforce the "sit" command via the collar. Also known (in this case) as indirect pressure. You can whistle the dog back in a few steps, then give multiple sit whistle blasts in conjunction with your reinforcement nick. It's not really any different, than other program's use of indirect pressure, but I think Bill would tell you to use multiple lower nicks, as opposed to the one "Big" one. If you're still not getting a change of behavior, you should probably re-visit your fundamentals.
> 
> I think the idea that there are not corrections in Hillmann's method is false. The idea is to "generally" avoid corrections if possible by reinforcing a command the dog is doing, but yes obviously the dog will make mistakes, and when the collar is used in that instance, you are giving a correction, as opposed to a reinforcement. The idea is to teach/practice and reinforce at lower levels, BUT there are still instances where higher nicks are warranted, and are indeed described in Bill's material.


Ok, thanks. That answers my question.


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## Gray_Chin (Feb 24, 2017)

KwickLabs said:


> So it has been three years with the "experiment". At first, it was difficult to wean my myself off pressure oriented teaching. Two concepts
> kept my primary motivations in gear. First was *accepting* the idea that solid conditioned responses required much more repetition than I
> had ever envisioned. The second was accepting full responsibility for how my dog was learning "stuff". If things were not going well then I was
> the one who needed to change things up. To make this more definitive, that would be true for any program. It's not the dog is not easy to
> ...


I have had a very similar experience, and couldn't say it better. I am into fundamentals with my pup, and I am happy I have stayed the Hillmann course. If you take your pup through fetch and fundamentals, and really work it, you could have an awesome hunting dog, and $400 to have a solid hunting companion for hopefully the next 10+ years is really cheap money. 

One thing that has helped me is always going back and reviewing the material, and using the youtube channel as supplements to the dvd's. 

Heres one about pressure, refusals, teaching etc..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owK5miQ1Ohw

One of my needed reminders, patience!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_uUtLLdHw


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Gray_Chin said:


> I have had a very similar experience, and couldn't say it better. I am into fundamentals with my pup, and I am happy I have stayed the Hillmann course. If you take your pup through fetch and fundamentals, and really work it, you could have an awesome hunting dog, and $400 to have a solid hunting companion for hopefully the next 10+ years is really cheap money.
> 
> One thing that has helped me is always going back and reviewing the material, and using the youtube channel as supplements to the dvd's.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the videos. Very good explanation and thought process from Bill. Again, like I said before I see this as further detailing how similar Hillmann's and Lardy's programs rather than different. Lardy uses indirect pressure as his form of correction, always teaching first, only reinforcing what a dog has a good understanding of, giving the dog the benefit of the doubt, etc. I think Lardy sometimes gets a bad rap from some about being a 'pressure based program' when that's really not the case. He just uses the e-collar as one(of many) forms of communication to the dog.

I also think Hillmann's programs are sometimes unnecessarily shrouded in a cloud of mystery regarding how he does(or never does) corrections, and other issues. Thanks again for all the input. Helps me make the decision to invest in Hillmann's advanced material easier.


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## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

Personally, I've been hesitant to go to Hillman's fundamentals and advanced work as there doesn't seem to be anyone nearby who can help if I run into trouble. 

I believe the programs are similar, probably more similar than most realize.

I feel like the biggest hurdle for Hillman is the small % of people who are using his full program. It's relatively new, everyone loves his puppy material, but looking at time tested programs (which everyone uses) for $250-300 vs his program for $500. I think Hillman just needs a larger sample size to support it. 

I'm certainly excited to try Hillman's full program, I wish I would have stuck to it the first time so that I'm not re-training myself. 
.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"I wish I would have stuck to it the first time so that I'm not re-training myself."_ 

That is an extremely significant comment. I am almost 77 years old and find it refreshing to 
never stop "re-training myself". It is easy to become stagnant......even when believing that
you are very skilled. 

Your brain continues to thrive when provided with challenges. However, the body tends to
become somewhat of a nuisance.


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## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

KwickLabs said:


> _"I wish I would have stuck to it the first time so that I'm not re-training myself."_
> 
> That is an extremely significant comment. I am almost 77 years old and find it refreshing to
> never stop "re-training myself". It is easy to become stagnant......even when believing that
> ...


Although I have come to love the challenges of dog training.... I wish I would have started and stayed with Hillman because there would be less of a learning curve for me with my next dog. My current and first dog is more resilient and has more patience than I could have hoped for... He's put up with a lot of boneheaded set ups and sessions, a lot of failures because I set him up for it. We keep progressing as a team and it's a great feeling. 

I don't regret learning what I have with the other resources I've used...I fear I'll be tempted to blend the programs if I run into a snag with Hillman. Improvising for a noob like myself can create a whole new set of problems. Learned this the hard way...

My personality would lead me to want to try and understand all the programs to some extent but realizing one only has the opportunity to train "x" amount of dogs in their lives, leads me to want to master one as much as I can. 

The thrill of teaching a concept and seeing my dog "get it" is incredible. Becoming a better teacher is at the heart of these programs, the path is very similar, the end result is the same, each seem to present it just a little differently.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

bshaf said:


> Although I have come to love the challenges of dog training.... I wish I would have started and stayed with Hillman because there would be less of a learning curve for me with my next dog. My current and first dog is more resilient and has more patience than I could have hoped for... He's put up with a lot of boneheaded set ups and sessions, a lot of failures because I set him up for it. We keep progressing as a team and it's a great feeling.
> 
> I don't regret learning what I have with the other resources I've used...I fear I'll be tempted to blend the programs if I run into a snag with Hillman. Improvising for a noob like myself can create a whole new set of problems. Learned this the hard way...
> 
> My personality would lead me to want to try and understand all the programs to some extent but realizing one only has the opportunity to train "x" amount of dogs in their lives, leads me to want to master one as much as I can.


I don't think learning/blending parts of different programs are necessarily a bad thing. As long as their foundation/philosophy are similar I think it can be a positive. I have used portions of Hillmann, Lardy, Danny Farmer, Dennis Voigt's drills, and others. I don't think 1 trainer has all the answers(or has put all the answers on video). I don't think a person/trainer should ever stop learning. I guess depending on personality, it could become 'paralysis by analysis' because you have to decide what fits and what doesn't.


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