# Numbers behind MH in a pedigree



## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

What do they mean? 
Such as Fido MH (25)
What does the 25 mean?

MP


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

The dog passed 25 Master tests, and the owner paid the fee to add the number.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/MHLifetimeAchievTitleApp.2.2017.pdf


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Mitty....hows your girl?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

suepuff said:


> Mitty....hows your girl?


My 7-yr old seems healthy enough but doesn't seem to love the work any more. I am still hoping that she will come around.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Why would anyone want to pay to put their number of master passes on a pedigree? That’s almost comical.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Justin Allen said:


> Why would anyone want to pay to put their number of master passes on a pedigree? That’s almost comical.


The same reason people would be in line to pay to put AA Points at the end of a FC title. The same reason people pay for the QA2 Title. The same reason people pay entry fees to compete with their dog and put titles on them. Why does anyone pay anything in this dog game? Bragging and Boasting, and to honor/represent the dogs ability/achievements. If people truly just enjoyed watching a dog work and not the competition or challenge of it then they would be training and hunting and no weekend chest puffing matches. I've met a man recently that truly just enjoys the dog work and has no care for titles or accolades. He has extremely well bred dogs, trains with an extremely successful FT AM group 4-5 days a week, has disposable income many could only dream of, but he is nowhere to be found on EE....that man is truly in it just for the dog work.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I’m sorry, but paying to have AKC put your master passes on the pedigree is laughable. Your comparisons to the all age are not apples to apples. In a field trial you actually compete against other dogs. There is no comparison to that and wanting to document how many weekend master passes your dog collected. 



Nick Toti said:


> The same reason people would be in line to pay to put AA Points at the end of a FC title. The same reason people pay for the QA2 Title. The same reason people pay entry fees to compete with their dog and put titles on them. Why does anyone pay anything in this dog game? Bragging and Boasting, and to honor/represent the dogs ability/achievements. If people truly just enjoyed watching a dog work and not the competition or challenge of it then they would be training and hunting and no weekend chest puffing matches. I've met a man recently that truly just enjoys the dog work and has no care for titles or accolades. He has extremely well bred dogs, trains with an extremely successful FT AM group 4-5 days a week, has disposable income many could only dream of, but he is nowhere to be found on EE....that man is truly in it just for the dog work.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

What’s next, tracking how many series a dog has gone without a handle so that can be on the pedigree too?


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## colinSEA (Sep 14, 2013)

Doesn't seem unreasonable or comical for an owner at the end of a dogs career to want to have MH(XX) at the end of their dogs pedigree to denote how many Master Passes the dog has had in its career. $20 bucks is a drop in the bucket for a little sentimental value.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Nick Toti said:


> *The same reason people would be in line to pay to put AA Points at the end of a FC title.* The same reason people pay for the QA2 Title. The same reason people pay entry fees to compete with their dog and put titles on them. Why does anyone pay anything in this dog game? Bragging and Boasting, and to honor/represent the dogs ability/achievements. If people truly just enjoyed watching a dog work and not the competition or challenge of it then they would be training and hunting and no weekend chest puffing matches. I've met a man recently that truly just enjoys the dog work and has no care for titles or accolades. He has extremely well bred dogs, trains with an extremely successful FT AM group 4-5 days a week, has disposable income many could only dream of, but he is nowhere to be found on EE....that man is truly in it just for the dog work.


No need to pay to pay for brag points for an FC. Just having the FC is brag points enough... It’s hard enough to get one, don’t have to doctor it up to feel better about it. 

As for EE... it just started in 2003. A whole lot of dog history happened before then. The world did not begin in 2003.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Justin Allen said:


> I’m sorry, but paying to have AKC put your master passes on the pedigree is laughable. Your comparisons to the all age are not apples to apples. In a field trial you actually compete against other dogs. There is no comparison to that and wanting to document how many weekend master passes your dog collected.


People paying fees to enter dogs into tests or trials to win or pass to gain a TITLE is apples to apples, a Title is an abbreviation that represents data, a metric. AKC wanted to put another data tracker on the MH pedigree, people like tracking it. You ever see a breeding advertisement with AA Points listed? Why is that? To show consistency and ability over time. Same goes for the MH # Title, it shows consistency and ability over time. Just bc the ability level is different doesn't mean it shouldn't be tracked. AKC doesn't put a point tracker on a pedigree but a dog food company has their own method and tracks it, and I know you've seen the awards, coats, claps and accolades that go with that. People like tracking data/info and showing off. If AKC allowed points on a pedigree you'd have people lined up trying to get their .5 point added and you'd have people with 100 point dogs who never would think to do it. What you find as important in the dog world is comical to many others, and what others find important is comical to you, but it's all comical from the outside.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Well said. It’s so petty I can hardly comprehend. I had no idea this was a thing now. 



huntinman said:


> No need to pay to pay for brag points for an FC. Just having the FC is brag points enough... It’s hard enough to get one, don’t have to doctor it up to feel better about it.
> 
> As for EE... it just started in 2003. A whole lot of dog history happened before then. The world did not begin in 2003.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

huntinman said:


> No need to pay to pay for brag points for an FC. Just having the FC is brag points enough... It’s hard enough to get one, don’t have to doctor it up to feel better about it.
> 
> As for EE... it just started in 2003. A whole lot of dog history happened before then. The world did not begin in 2003.


If all previous history was traceable and AKC allowed you to put points on a pedigree retro and up to current, do you think people would put their dogs AA points on their pedigree? yes or no?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Some would. If I had to pay the AKC another nickle I would not. The information is out there.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

huntinman said:


> Some would. If I had to pay the AKC another nickle I would not. The information is out there.


Agree on that!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Justin Allen said:


> Why would anyone want to pay to put their number of master passes on a pedigree? That’s almost comical.


But...but...wouldn't it be great if you could pay to put the numbers *before* the title? I can see Marv from Flyover Country running out the door right now to mail in his AKC registration addendum for *Black & Silver Front & Center Jim Otto (00) JH*! 

MG


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## kftopgun (Mar 24, 2009)

Didnt take u long to become a field trial snob. Three yrs ago you were a tire kicker looking for a started dog. Congrats that u have an FC. You might consider being a little more humble.


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

What might be more useful for the gene pool, in the case of an MH title, would be for the AKC to post the number of competitions that were entered before they titled. Finishing rate to entries would be more telling on the quality of the dog, no?


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I’m assuning your referring to me. Thats funny. To my recollection I’ve never shopped for a started dog. 3 years ago I was doing the same thing I am now. Calling me a field trial snob is laughable. Field trial snobs don’t host HRC training days multiple days a year on their properties. Just because I think it’s petty to brag about how many master passes a dog has doesn’t put me in the minority buddy. Why don’t you post your name??



kftopgun said:


> Didnt take u long to become a field trial snob. Three yrs ago you were a tire kicker looking for a started dog. Congrats that u have an FC. You might consider being a little more humble.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

kftopgun said:


> Didnt take u long to become a field trial snob. Three yrs ago you were a tire kicker looking for a started dog. Congrats that u have an FC. You might consider being a little more humble.


If you are referring to Justin you are way off base. Justin has allowed and invited hunt testers to use his personal property for training several times. in fact, this coming Saturday, the N.Al. Hunting Retriever Club is using his place for a hunt test club training day. 
MP


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

AKC is so transparent when it comes HT’s and they don’t care because the people who are participating don’t care. They’ll monitize anything. Tests are becoming ribbon factories with what amount to participation Trophies. Weather you have A MH50 or 5000 is about to become inconsequential as they are on a collision course to ultimately devaluing the title in its entirety. 

Maintain high standards and except the fact that it means smaller entries with less “continued” participation. Or let money be the driving force allow the standard to suffer churn out more titles thus devaluing them. 

A buddy of mine had a bunch of test programs from when he ran master in the early 2000’s 30-40 dogs with Pass rate under 40% now pass rates are regularly north of 60%


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

David Lo Buono said:


> AKC is so transparent when it comes HT’s and they don’t care because the people who are participating don’t care. They’ll monitize anything. Tests are becoming ribbon factories with what amount to participation Trophies. Weather you have A MH50 or 5000 is about to become inconsequential as they are on a collision course to ultimately devaluing the title in its entirety.
> 
> Maintain high standards and except the fact that it means smaller entries with less “continued” participation. Or let money be the driving force allow the standard to suffer churn out more titles thus devaluing them.
> 
> A buddy of mine had a bunch of test programs from when he ran master in the early 2000’s 30-40 dogs with Pass rate under 40% now pass rates are regularly north of 60%


This discussion got way off topic but that's par for the course here lately. I've been in Ht's since 2003 and the tests are harder now than then, and judged much more strictly. To state that MH and AKC HT's are just a ribbon factory is a fallacy. The dogs are better, the training techniques are better. The whole venue has evolved. 
I think the entire rule book needs to be rewritten and the standard for MH totally re evaluated or the pass rates will continue to rise. 
Nothing wrong with pass rates in the 60 % range if the dogs meet the standard for the stake. 
If it's going to be about numbers that pass or qualify, then move to FT's. 
MP


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Nick Toti said:


> People paying fees to enter dogs into tests or trials to win or pass to gain a TITLE is apples to apples, a Title is an abbreviation that represents data, a metric. AKC wanted to put another data tracker on the MH pedigree, people like tracking it. You ever see a breeding advertisement with AA Points listed? Why is that? To show consistency and ability over time. Same goes for the MH # Title, it shows consistency and ability over time. Just bc the ability level is different doesn't mean it shouldn't be tracked. AKC doesn't put a point tracker on a pedigree but a dog food company has their own method and tracks it, and I know you've seen the awards, coats, claps and accolades that go with that. People like tracking data/info and showing off. If AKC allowed points on a pedigree you'd have people lined up trying to get their .5 point added and you'd have people with 100 point dogs who never would think to do it. What you find as important in the dog world is comical to many others, and what others find important is comical to you, but it's all comical from the outside.


GREAT post.


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## jwilliams38930 (Sep 19, 2017)

David Lo Buono said:


> AKC is so transparent when it comes HT’s and they don’t care because the people who are participating don’t care. They’ll monitize anything. Tests are becoming ribbon factories with what amount to participation Trophies. Weather you have A MH50 or 5000 is about to become inconsequential as they are on a collision course to ultimately devaluing the title in its entirety.
> 
> Maintain high standards and except the fact that it means smaller entries with less “continued” participation. Or let money be the driving force allow the standard to suffer churn out more titles thus devaluing them.
> 
> A buddy of mine had a bunch of test programs from when he ran master in the early 2000’s 30-40 dogs with Pass rate under 40% now pass rates are regularly north of 60%


But I think setting a pass rate before the test has even started (which I have heard multiple times is common practice in AKC HTs) is absolutely retarded. Judges get chastised after a test if their pass rate is above 50 or 60%. I have had 2 judges tell me that. So dogs that meet the standard of the test, get failed for a quota. That is unfair and unethical.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Mike Perry said:


> This discussion got way off topic but that's par for the course here lately. I've been in Ht's since 2003 and the tests are harder now than then, and judged much more strictly. To state that MH and AKC HT's are just a ribbon factory is a fallacy. The dogs are better, the training techniques are better. The whole venue has evolved.
> I think the entire rule book needs to be rewritten and the standard for MH totally re evaluated or the pass rates will continue to rise.
> Nothing wrong with pass rates in the 60 % range if the dogs meet the standard for the stake.
> If it's going to be about numbers that pass or qualify, then move to FT's.
> MP


Good post Mike. 100% correct


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

David Lo Buono said:


> AKC is so transparent when it comes HT’s and they don’t care because the people who are participating don’t care. They’ll monitize anything. _*Tests are becoming ribbon factories with what amount to participation Trophies.*_ Weather you have A MH50 or 5000 is about to become inconsequential as they are on a collision course to ultimately devaluing the title in its entirety.
> 
> Maintain high standards and except the fact that it means smaller entries with less “continued” participation. Or let money be the driving force allow the standard to suffer churn out more titles thus devaluing them.
> 
> A buddy of mine had a bunch of test programs from when he ran master in the early 2000’s 30-40 dogs with Pass rate under 40% now pass rates are regularly north of 60%


They are not handing out participation trophies for MH passes/titles in my neck of the woods (TX). Sure, some weekend test might be tougher than others but that goes for all games. You still better have a very well trained dog and a decent handler to get through a master test. I think the amount of pro's training and running dogs in Master tests has increased a lot in the last 18 years which also contributes to more passes. I also think the average joe looking for a new puppy who may have bought a backyard breeding lab puppy 15-20 years ago...now he goes on the internet and asks a question about where to get a good hunting dog and suddenly his/her eyes are opened that he should buy a puppy from a good quality breeding from hunt test titled or FT titled parents. So, point being, I think people are buying better bred dogs as a result. I think those new puppy buyers usually have sticker shock at paying $1k+++ for a puppy but they end up doing it. And some of them may get into hunt tests as a result as well.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

David Lo Buono said:


> AKC is so transparent when it comes HT’s and they don’t care because the people who are participating don’t care. They’ll monitize anything. Tests are becoming ribbon factories with what amount to participation Trophies. Weather you have A MH50 or 5000 is about to become inconsequential as they are on a collision course to ultimately devaluing the title in its entirety.
> 
> Maintain high standards and except the fact that it means smaller entries with less “continued” participation. Or let money be the driving force allow the standard to suffer churn out more titles thus devaluing them.
> 
> A buddy of mine had a bunch of test programs from when he ran master in the early 2000’s 30-40 dogs with Pass rate under 40% now pass rates are regularly north of 60%


When you constrain/limit variables such as distance/quantity for marks/blinds, types of tests(diversions, walk ups, etc), and days allotted to test you indirectly create a ceiling to the type of test and its difficulty. Master Test's "difficulty" has been constrained while the quality/ability of dogs, training methods over time, and quantity of "HT Pros"(training dogs 5 days a week) has been increasing. Tell us what % of handlers were "HT Pros" running Master dogs in that early 2000 program, how many dogs came from FCxMH breedings, how many dogs had been at a pro for 3-4 years? I'd have to bet that's where the majority of your rise in pass ratio comes from, a more quality field. % pass ratio should have ZERO impact on how judges judge, if they only wanted 1-4 placements and a few jams then they're in the wrong seat at the wrong event.

And no thanks to limiting test entries to less than what they are now, it's an absolute debacle to try to get in already. There's 100 other things that can be done other than limiting entries on an event that amateurs already can barely even get into.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Justin Allen said:


> Well said. It’s so petty I can hardly comprehend. I had no idea this was a thing now.


"Petty" is relative, it can make the big feel small and the small feel big, depending on if they're looking up or looking down.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

OK, it seems the rtf consensus for the #s on a pedigree denoting MH tests passed is a good idea - well, at least it might be for _*terrier*_ master hunt tests!* The numbers for those tests could denote the terriers' ratting kill rate per minute and the evidence would be indisputable as to whether these were easy(peasy) kills or tough vermin to dispatch. As Polmaise might have said in a "South Georgia (Island) accent" back in the day to Ernest Shackleton, *"Carry on, terriers!"*

MG

PS That's not to say terriers in retriever master hunt tests, though our own "OneShotLu" might like this tale too.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

David Lo Buono said:


> Maintain high standards and except the fact that it means smaller entries with less “continued” participation. Or let money be the driving force allow the standard to suffer churn out more titles thus devaluing them.


As everyone is giving opinions, Mine is that MH test have gotten a lot easier since I started running them ~9yrs. ago. However I don't blame this on lower standards nor judges having a predetermined pass rate. I blame this on limiting tests to 60-120, and filling every flight. There too many dogs needing to get through each series, to expect judges to be able to put on 3 strong series (which take time to run). The judges have to constantly be worried about being able to complete the test period. These days it seems you might get one challenging series and then 2 box checker series (they fulfill the requirements), and can be ran quickly. The first series is oftentimes not even completed on the first day, used to be we'd have the 2nd series almost, done on Saturday. Today most 60 dog Master tests seem to be ending at dusk or later on Sun; this is when everything goes right. It's almost impossible to test a flight of 60 dogs to a true master standard in 2 days, it's just too many dogs in one flight. 

As for the MH(100), I could care less if someone wants to buy that to commemorate a particular dogs life-time achievement, to me it makes better since than putting MNH(12) or what have you. By the time a dog get enough passes to worry about it they are most likely out of the breeding pool in any case. To me MH100 only shows how much money they have into the game, and I don't need another reminder of that . So it's just something btw a handler and their dog, nothing wrong with that.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Don't really know a single person that has paid the AKC for the MH# title. So the pettiness is nonexistent. As a tribute to a deceased or retired dog the expense is minimal compared to the expense attaining the numbers.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

crackerd said:


> OK, it seems the rtf consensus for the #s on a pedigree denoting MH tests passed is a good idea - well, at least it might be for _*terrier*_ master hunt tests!* The numbers for those tests could denote the terriers' ratting kill rate per minute and the evidence would be indisputable as to whether these were easy(peasy) kills or tough vermin to dispatch. As Polmaise might have said in a "South Georgia (Island) accent" back in the day to Ernest Shackleton, *"Carry on, terriers!"*
> 
> MG
> 
> PS That's not to say terriers in retriever master hunt tests, though our own "OneShotLu" might like this tale too.


Don't count my vote as "good idea" I just find it to have ZERO negative impact on myself, the HT sport, or the Labrador breed in general. So with that I don't give a rat's rear what people do with their $20 and 27 master passes on a pedigree. People seem to think that their opinions and thoughts matter for something that they have ZERO involvement in or that has ZERO impact on them. As my mother used to say back in the day down in South Louisiana "Mind your !#@$%*@ business"


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Cool story bro



Nick Toti said:


> "Petty" is relative, it can make the big feel small and the small feel big, depending on if they're looking up or looking down.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I’ve noticed a handful in the last few days. Before I knew it was a thing I don’t ever remember noticing any. I can’t imagine many people will line the AKc’s pockets any further for it. 



fishduck said:


> Don't really know a single person that has paid the AKC for the MH# title. So the pettiness is nonexistent. As a tribute to a deceased or retired dog the expense is minimal compared to the expense attaining the numbers.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I’m not so sure about this. I know a lot of people who run master now and we’re 7-8 years ago. 7-8 years ago their pass rate may have been hit or miss as they were relatively inexperienced. Now those guys rarely fail a test. I don’t think it’s gotten easier at all. The guys running the dogs have figured out how to make the dogs a hell of a lot better IMO. 



David Lo Buono said:


> AKC is so transparent when it comes HT’s and they don’t care because the people who are participating don’t care. They’ll monitize anything. Tests are becoming ribbon factories with what amount to participation Trophies. Weather you have A MH50 or 5000 is about to become inconsequential as they are on a collision course to ultimately devaluing the title in its entirety.
> 
> Maintain high standards and except the fact that it means smaller entries with less “continued” participation. Or let money be the driving force allow the standard to suffer churn out more titles thus devaluing them.
> 
> A buddy of mine had a bunch of test programs from when he ran master in the early 2000’s 30-40 dogs with Pass rate under 40% now pass rates are regularly north of 60%


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> As everyone is giving opinions, Mine is that MH test have gotten a lot easier since I started running them ~9yrs. ago. However I don't blame this on lower standards nor judges having a predetermined pass rate. I blame this on limiting tests to 60-120, and filling every flight. There too many dogs needing to get through each series, to expect judges to be able to put on 3 strong series (which take time to run).


I have also brought this point up. A meaty water series is a thing of the past due to time BUT can be almost directly correlated to the fact that they literally do not drop dogs or as many dogs as they should.


As to everyone else I completely and unequivocally disagree. I think that those of you who want to believe that MH hunt tests Are harder now or are more strictly judged think so simply because you are a current participant & you want to project a sense of value. I think anybody that takes an objective look at today’s master hunt test dogs and sees the caliber of dogs that are passing would wholeheartedly disagree. 

In the last couple years. I have personally witnessed dogs double handle in the same series and get carried. I have personally witnessed dogs with 2 handles(in separate series) Receive ribbons and or get carried to the final series. Dogs with multiple cast refusals to the point where it is painfully obvious still get carried.......I want the title to mean something now and in the future. The AKC simply wants participants.

Anybody that looked at the metrics over the last couple years saw certain judges got a lot more entries then other judges the AKC noticed this clubs noticed this. harder judges got less assignments. easier judges got more assignments. it’s It’s there in black-and-white. $$$$$$$

Why is there a need for a national in an event that is judged against “a standard” a test is a test and national test should reflect any standard master test. Should it not? So what’s the big deal??? the big deal is we need to keep people running master we don’t want people getting titles and then stop running. we need an event that will keep people going keep people paying entries keep money rolling in let’s make a “national” it’s that simple.....Now we’ll give “special titles” another money maker. Come on some of you seriously don’t see this???

I’ll break it down very simply the AKC wants continued participation from junior to senior to master. A vast majority of people will not continue to participate if they do not get rewarded. My kids are young and are in karate as well as other sports. I teach my children to work hard to not worry about what other kids are doing but to do their best there are kids in the class that do not work as hard they do not try ashard they Do not demonstrate the same self-control or discipline that my kids do. But are rewarded Through various forms of positive reinforcement, stickers and things of that nature as well as getting stripes and Belt promotions. Why??? simple economics the instructor has a school to run if the kids become disinterested and are not being rewarded parents will stop sending them to class and he loses revenue as well as potential future students. The AKC in terms of HT is no different then the instructor that owns the martial arts school. They want participants they want people to tell other people hey this is fun you get ribbons you get titles.....

This is also a reflection of today’s society the new generation of perspective hunt testers simply will not invest Significant amounts of time if they are not getting something for it. money has nothing to do with it they will invest money and lots of it as long as they feel that they have something shiny to show off. 

Looking back NAHRA was way ahead of its time when it asked a very poignant question. Some people might recall me telling the story as a young handler and a NAHRA test Almost 20 years ago I guess. Jack Jagoda looked at me And said how do we get more of you how do we get more young people involved how do we get more people involved. Before I had a chance to answer he continued with the Labrador retriever and golden retriever are the most popular dogs in this country how do we get more participation?? Of course I said the obvious answer not everybody huntsand said this doesn’t appeal to everyone that owns a Labrador or retriever of any sort. He simply said “you’re right” and that was pretty much the end of the conversation. But he was smart he knew what to do or at least worth a try to do take the element that is the least appealing out introduce an element that is more game(dft)like and you’ll attract more participants. Well a lot of us know that didn’t go over so well I took a while for that organization to recover. 

What I think many of you guys are not realizing is the AKC is asking a similar question. Not how do we get Fringe people that don’t hunt involved but how do we keep the people that do participate to keep participating. But each venue had a similar goal to increase and stabilize revenue. Throwing out the multitude of differences between hunt tests and field trials there’s one real main difference the hunt test game had an ending, you achieve the master hunter title although you could still continue to run you earn no special designation nor a special event. field trials you can continue to compile points and for lack of a better term if you’re good enough run up the score. field trials inherently had no “end” The hunt test aspect simply Incorporated that philosophy by instituting a “national” and now rewarding “people” for the amount of passes. Not so much different than keeping a score. 

Make the game easier, increase participation(Increase continued participation) have a cumulative effect & reward your participants it’s an easy formula....


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Possibly a more revealing stat would be to include the number of tests entered along with the passes


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

I ran and judged Masters in the early 2000’s with a talented dog probably equally talented as most field trial dogs today and pass rates were about 30-35 % or lower most weekends in the Texas-Louisiana circuit and the dogs that were passing were well bred mostly field trial derivative with some pro training and hard working handlers. I remember that entries were in the 14-15 thousand annually with National Master qualifiers in the low hundreds. After the advent of the MNH it’s now above 900 or so I believe ( but I could be wrong) so things seem to have changed some of it could be more pro training or another possibility there could be an increased number of entries to explain the increase of qualifiers but otherwise the increase is probably related to a philosophy of easier weekend tests for an end result of a fiduciary increase to the Master National endeavor


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## kftopgun (Mar 24, 2009)

Justin Allen said:


> I’m assuning your referring to me. Thats funny. To my recollection I’ve never shopped for a started dog. 3 years ago I was doing the same thing I am now. Calling me a field trial snob is laughable. Field trial snobs don’t host HRC training days multiple days a year on their properties. Just because I think it’s petty to brag about how many master passes a dog has doesn’t put me in the minority buddy. Why don’t you post your name??


My apologies.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

David Lo Buono said:


> I have also brought this point up. A meaty water series is a thing of the past due to time BUT can be almost directly correlated to the fact that they literally do not drop dogs or as many dogs as they should.
> .


I have not noticed dog not being dropped when they should be, however I will agree that judges are not as pencil-whippy as they used to be. Still if you run only 1 good series (usually the first one) and only drop those that put themselves out. While keeping in those that still can make it mathematically (as a judge should). Even if a dog is bleeding profusely, If the math can add up the dog should be allowed to run. The problem occurs when you put on 2 box checker series; or are required to dumb down the series you had already setup, just to finish on time. This allows your bleeding profusely dogs easy recovery. Perhaps it would be better just to cross them out in the first series, if you don't have the time to test them correctly in the 2nd or 3rd. However I don't think this is a good way of doing it either, I relish dogs who are able to come back after a bobble in the first, if all the series are to master level, not senior tests with an extra bird (sometimes calling them senior tests would be giving them too much credit ). I think it could all be settled, with making the split at 40-45 dogs rather than 60, give judges more time to run their inventive and fun setups, which are usually outlined on Friday night, but have to drastically change them to be able to finish on Sunday. 

Saw a long tough hard water series at one of my latest tests, we were running after dark; missed the BBQ; but it was also a Thurs-fri test, so carry over to Sat. wasn't as big of an issue. Still they had to cut time by replacing a triple with a double in the second series, seems like something always has to be cut these days. I believe 14 dogs out of 60 passed. It would have been nice to see a 3rd triple, as a lot of good dogs needed to show one (conditions-wind were very bad for marking) but those are the breaks when you want to finish. 

I mostly help run and setup the master stake, put all the ribbons down for the judges on Friday night. You'd be amazed how much the setups change from what they judges wanted to run initially to what they have to run Sunday afternoon-evening.


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## Gregg0211 (Feb 11, 2015)

I think the dogs have gotten better and the tests are harder in Master. Other than the Grand, I kinda feel like the HRC Finished tests have become more of a weekend drinking event and feel good party. I havent ran one in over a year because I dont feel the need for a few more ribbons for $200. Master was much more challenging. I dont see the need for folks to get too worried about the number of Master passes either. Once you get the title, be happy and move up. Rather than 500point club and MH25, try a Q sometime and not only test your dog, but your training. Also, check your ego at the door. As for Justin being a snob, I almost peeed my pants when I read that. He spends far more time with HT guys training and helping than FT guys. As a matter of fact, both of his dogs got HT titles, way before they ever tried FT. QUOTE=Justin Allen;2093745]I’m not so sure about this. I know a lot of people who run master now and we’re 7-8 years ago. 7-8 years ago their pass rate may have been hit or miss as they were relatively inexperienced. Now those guys rarely fail a test. I don’t think it’s gotten easier at all. The guys running the dogs have figured out how to make the dogs a hell of a lot better IMO.[/QUOTE]


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

How about the numbers-how many entries now compared to entries 2001-2005 and how many qualifiers/compared to entries then and now otherwise it’s completely a subjective comparison


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Ken Barton said:


> How about the numbers-how many entries now compared to entries 2001-2005 and how many qualifiers/compared to entries then and now otherwise it’s completely a subjective comparison


Even then it's still subjective, IMO. Like others have said, dogs are trained to a higher standard now. With the wide availability of training programs/videos that have been produced in the last 10-15 years, training has gotten much better(especially at the amateur level). Most pros have been training nice dogs for a long time, but the rank amateur with 1 or 2 dogs has so many more resources now to help him/her train their dog to a higher level than previously possible without the help of a pro or "professional amateur". I think that's where the difference in the pass rates come in.


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## colinSEA (Sep 14, 2013)

I had an email with these stats on MH events and Starters from 2005-2016.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

The last test I ran this year, Waterloo, had a really tough third series, water. Only a very few got through it without a handle. I was one of the lucky ones. Triple and double blind. 22 passed.

This last weekend at Sooner: Flight A 18 passes and Flight B 13 passes.
I wasn't at the test so I don't know what the issues were.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> I think it could all be settled, with making the split at 40-45 dogs rather than 60, give judges more time to run their inventive and fun setups, which are usually outlined on Friday night


WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!
Instead of stating "inventive and fun" just say "stupid". 
There are enough dumb set ups as it is without encouraging more gimmicks, tricks, bells and whistles. Well placed birds and well thought out blinds should be enough to judge to the published standard. Too many times a judge will train a day with a pro who might be working on something specific with his dogs and then say to himself, "Hey that looks cool, I think I'll do that on the weekend" with no clue what to expect from the dogs being tested.
I'm not advocating participation awards by any means. I am a competitive individual who played college sports and coached H.S. and A.A.U. so I'm not afraid of losing, but too much time and effort goes into getting ready for the tests to have a dumb set up throw it out the window.
Save the fun and inventive stuff for your training day or group.
MP


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Mike Perry said:


> WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!
> Instead of stating "inventive and fun" just say "stupid".
> There are enough dumb set ups as it is without encouraging more gimmicks, tricks, bells and whistles. Well placed birds and well thought out blinds should be enough to judge to the published standard. Too many times a judge will train a day with a pro who might be working on something specific with his dogs and then say to himself, "Hey that looks cool, I think I'll do that on the weekend" with no clue what to expect from the dogs being tested.
> I'm not advocating participation awards by any means. I am a competitive individual who played college sports and coached H.S. and A.A.U. so I'm not afraid of losing, but too much time and effort goes into getting ready for the tests to have a dumb set up throw it out the window.
> ...


Another good post Mike. Agree 100%. Tests should be about measuring a dog's abilities, not tricking them.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I ran one finished test this spring that had 8 pass out of 30. 

There was another in the fall that passed 6. 

My club's test this weekend had 8 pass on Saturday and 6 Sunday. 

These weren't the equivalent of "handing out participation trophies". 

If you made it through you could be proud of your accomplishment.

I don't think I've see more than a 60% pass rate on any test. All the ones I've passed have been right at about 50% or less.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

HRC's motto is "by hunters for hunters" so there should be no surprise that the marks and blinds are less technical in nature. Still the organization runs challenging tests. The addition of a duck call and pump shotgun at the line will make some dogs come unglued. Running 30 dogs a day on 2 series means a much more laid back test and you can run the second series even if you fail the 1st. The law of averages states that some flights will have lots of dogs pass and other days few ribbons are handed out.

Most of the HRC and AKC test I have ran are very well thought out with well placed marks and blinds. Maybe 10% are easy and the same 10% are hard. 1% make you wonder what the judges were thinking. As a whole, both organizations throw fun, challenging events.

The true concern for the future isn't whether a person puts a number behind the MH or if the test was hard enough but how do we attract new handlers, judges and workers.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

fishduck said:


> HRC's motto is "by hunters for hunters" so there should be no surprise that the marks and blinds are less technical in nature. Still the organization runs challenging tests. The addition of a duck call and pump shotgun at the line will make some dogs come unglued. Running 30 dogs a day on 2 series means a much more laid back test and you can run the second series even if you fail the 1st. The law of averages states that some flights will have lots of dogs pass and other days few ribbons are handed out.
> 
> Most of the HRC and AKC test I have ran are very well thought out with well placed marks and blinds. Maybe 10% are easy and the same 10% are hard. 1% make you wonder what the judges were thinking. As a whole, both organizations throw fun, challenging events.
> 
> *The true concern for the future isn't whether a person puts a number behind the MH or if the test was hard enough but how do we attract new handlers, judges and workers.*


*

*This is exactly why the HT are "dumbed down" and participation ribbons are handed out.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

fishduck said:


> The true concern for the future isn't whether a person puts a number behind the MH or if the test was hard enough but how do we attract new handlers, judges and workers.


I think you attract/hook new participants in Started/Seasoned and Junior/Senior. Finished and master stakes should be good challening tests(no tricks). I have no problem extending distance limits(weather permitting) that are currently in the rule book so that the focus can be on challenging, well placed marks/blinds instead of tricky tests. From my experience, there are not very many first timers running master/finished. Handlers running these stakes have at least some experience and should know what to expect.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> [/B]This is exactly why the HT are "dumbed down" and participation ribbons are handed out.


How many tests have you judged or been on the hunt committee in the last year? NEVER heard a judge or committee member ask for a dumbed down test. 

If you aren't helping please step back and let the adults talk.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

bamajeff said:


> I think you attract/hook new participants in Started/Seasoned and Junior/Senior. Finished and master stakes should be good challening tests(no tricks). I have no problem extending distance limits(weather permitting) that are currently in the rule book so that the focus can be on challenging, well placed marks/blinds instead of tricky tests. From my experience, there are not very many first timers running master/finished. Handlers running these stakes have at least some experience and should know what to expect.



Totally agree but looking at the charts there has been a significant decrease in Junior/Senior events. Personally, I don't think the tests are easier. I think they become easier as we train harder with better dogs.

There are things we could do to improve access to Jr/Sr but the focus has been providing more slots for Master. A big step to increase the number of Jr/Sr would be to allow limits on Sr. This may seem counterintuitive. IF you ever chaired a test and had Senior break 50, you know the angst caused when you have to find 4 Senior judges in 10 days. I can verify that is the reason for lots of the single Jr/Sr tests.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I totally agree with you Mark regarding increasing master slots, just not sure that does anything regarding attracting new folks. I was just speaking to your point earlier.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> [/B]This is exactly why the HT are "dumbed down" and participation ribbons are handed out.


Then why on god's green earth do you list your HT titles, you should really just be ashamed of those participation ribbons.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

I think the time commitment for weekend tests is one big factor of why people do not stick with the sport. For instance, a person trains their dogs for hunting and decides "hey, I wanna go try a hunt test..." So, they show up eager to go on Saturday morning and then are shocked about how long running a flight of dogs takes for one series (even in a JH test). I personally really enjoying going to tests but as we all know they can be quite boring sometimes. In my opinion, if a person doesn't have that commitment or love for the game to sit and hang out all day, they are not going to come back. I don't have a solution but I know of several people that stopped running their dogs because they don't want to sit there all day/weekend. Not sure what you could do about those people.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Mike Perry said:


> WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!
> Instead of stating "inventive and fun" just say "stupid".
> MP


Not sure why fun and inventive automatically equates to Trickery; you don't have to put in tricks to make a series fun to run, nor to be inventive with your setups/field/terrain. The last test I ran was actually highly entertaining, no tricks, just an excellent use of terrain and the judges were quite a kick. They actually used 20-30 decoys including spinning wings and built a sort've hide blind to run out of. (this was AKC gasp) It was a good to standard test, probably on mid-level in terms of difficulty, but they were only running 44 dogs so time really wasn't a problem. This is a hobby-hobbies should be fun, why would one be paying all this money to be bored? Just to take home a $5 ribbon, which in AKC are always an ugly-dull orange color. 




fishduck said:


> There are things we could do to improve access to Jr/Sr but the focus has been providing more slots for Master. .


Masters is not the place were you encourage new participation, most workers (if they are still around) are rather callused by the time they are running masters. If anything getting people out of Masters would be preferable; particularly if it's those who seem to continuously utilize a high amount of resources, yet never lift a finger to give anything back. Juniors and Seniors is where you indoctrinate new "slaves"... I mean workers-volunteers . I too, believe not enough is being done to keep the lower stakes happy, which is resulting in club problems of not having enough "workers-volunteers". The #1 issue I hear about is the lower stakes always having to "wait" for long stretches. De-prioritizing the lower stakes, is gonna continue to bike the clubs in the buttocks, it will only get worse. Changing the idea of "masters" takes priority, to the "Overall Hunt Test" takes priority, might go a big way to keeping everyone including the lower stakes happier.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Changing the idea of "masters" takes priority, to the "Overall Hunt Test" takes priority, might go a big way to keeping everyone including the lower stakes happier.


Very true.

MP


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Well another year and the time for another Hunt Test "implosion." Same problems and issues since 1986. Date, dogs change but the irritations persist. Sad.


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## JMitchell (Dec 28, 2012)

birddogn_tc said:


> I think the time commitment for weekend tests is one big factor of why people do not stick with the sport. For instance, a person trains their dogs for hunting and decides "hey, I wanna go try a hunt test..." So, they show up eager to go on Saturday morning and then are shocked about how long running a flight of dogs takes for one series (even in a JH test). I personally really enjoying going to tests but as we all know they can be quite boring sometimes. In my opinion, if a person doesn't have that commitment or love for the game to sit and hang out all day, they are not going to come back. I don't have a solution but I know of several people that stopped running their dogs because they don't want to sit there all day/weekend. Not sure what you could do about those people.


This is me for sure. I want a good gun dog and enjoy training him in the off season. I joined a club because they have a great place to train. I was talked into going to a picnic trial for fun. Basically I was there from 8 till 1:30 to do 2 doubles and 2 blinds. When I go with my wife we could do that in no time. It was at the masters level and my boy did as good as the rest. It was probably good to get him around other dogs and distractions but I sure wouldn't do it every weekend. I don't mind throwing birds, planting blinds, etc. but there are other things I would rather do. At the end we were eating and a guy came up to me and asked if I was going to the upcoming hunt tests. I said no, I am not breeding my dog, don't need any ribbons, basically not my cup of tea. He was shocked and asked why do you train your dog. So I can hunt him about 70-80 times a year.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Attracting new blood is a challenge for sure--I think the hunt test game is obviously in much better shape in that regard than field trials. Finding someone under the age of 40 at an all age stake is one hell of a feat most days. There is constantly new blood being brought into the hunt tests, getting those people involved to the point they are holding a clipboard or judging a stake is another dilemma. 



bamajeff said:


> I totally agree with you Mark regarding increasing master slots, just not sure that does anything regarding attracting new folks. I was just speaking to your point earlier.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

birddogn_tc said:


> I think the time commitment for weekend tests is one big factor of why people do not stick with the sport. For instance, a person trains their dogs for hunting and decides "hey, I wanna go try a hunt test..." So, they show up eager to go on Saturday morning and then are shocked about how long running a flight of dogs takes for one series (even in a JH test). I personally really enjoying going to tests but as we all know they can be quite boring sometimes. In my opinion, if a person doesn't have that commitment or love for the game to sit and hang out all day, they are not going to come back. I don't have a solution but I know of several people that stopped running their dogs because they don't want to sit there all day/weekend. Not sure what you could do about those people.


Living 4+ hours away from every test except 1 is a big challenge. I have a young family and it is very difficult to make the tests. 

Most likely my plan for the future is to train all my dogs to the Master level, put a HRCH on them and then pay a pro to put anything higher on them. 

I really really do not like the thought of doing that. I have a very flexible job that allows me the time to train. Taking 8-10 or more weekends away from my family and the associated expenses is just not something I'm willing to do. 

Maybe when I retire I'll have the time. Possibly if i lived in an area that offered more tests at reasonable distances I could give it a go.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

bamajeff said:


> I think you attract/hook new participants in Started/Seasoned and Junior/Senior. Finished and master stakes should be good challening tests(no tricks). I have no problem extending distance limits(weather permitting) that are currently in the rule book so that the focus can be on challenging, well placed marks/blinds instead of tricky tests. From my experience, there are not very many first timers running master/finished. Handlers running these stakes have at least some experience and should know what to expect.


I
Well, I think you can derive a couple of things from the diminished junior and senior entries first of senior has always had Comparatively low entries to the other two stakes. 

Next, the cost of today’s junior Hunter stake is beyond the realm of ridiculous. Especially if you are trying to equate it to the weight of the title. But it will still Garner plenty of participation to be more then viable. But there’s a catch. I’ll get to that as well

Senior will end up being the litmus that proves the strength or more importantly the lack there of in the master stake. Essentially Senior will be come a skippable stake. People are going to realize and are already realizing with And I wouldn’t even call it a tremendous concerted effort because of its diluted state Why waste the money @ the Senior level. When in relatively short order I could have a competitive master dog. Senior is going to be up against it. However I believe the AKC already has a plan in place to deal with this. And that is to take a page out of another venue’s playbook. I’ll address that in a second.

Lastly, “The experienced hunt tester” Regardless of whether they want to admit it here or not again numbers do not lie regardless if they want to try to convince themselves as well as others that master hunter is as hard today as it was as little 5 years ago again numbers do not lie...... The experienced hunt tester is not wasting his time(weekends) Nor his money at junior or senior. He or she has realized again whether they want to admit it and again numbers do not lie that master hunter has become easier the lower levels are meaningless. Unfortunately by Devaluing your highest asset you have also devalued everything that precedes it. Again Junior will retain enough strength to be viable. 

But of course as is evidence of our discussion Junior entries are lagging but even an inflated cost beyond its relative value. Its more than likely producing the same revenue as it would if the test were $10 cheaper and had an extra dozen dogs.

Now for senior, poor senior it’s now going to be taking it from two ends. Historically senior was a transition time for both dog and handler and a big one at that. it’s also historically where you lost a large majority of your participants. Let’s face it you had perennial Junior dogs that plateaued at that level either because the dog was not capable of going further or because the owner handler trainer did not wish to invest in anything more or a combination of the two. Now with What some might term as a favorable market to obtain master ribbons stealing perspective senior participants combined with your perennial Junior dog you think that might be “The end of days” for senior. Not entirely. I think it will be the end of senior as we know it and as it stands today. Now this transformation might not take place In what would be considered a short time frame. But it will take place, it has to take place otherwise the AKC hunt test venue as a whole will cannibalize the senior level into Elimination. The AKC will not allow that to happen because even a small revenue source is still revenue.....The advent of the “junior plus” stake days will come upon us. The senior we know will be stuffed into a meat grinder and out will come something that they call senior but will consist of land and water series of doubles maybe & honor and maybe some other frivolous fluff of No discernible value will be added. The AKC is plenty smart enough to realize that they created the gateway in which the dogs that would be potential senior entrants to move to Master and that’s fine because they’ll get their money at master rather than senior And they prefer it there were they are making it compound of which was by design. They are also plenty smart enough to foresee the trickle down effect that would be created and a way to monetize it. Now they will have created a home for the perennial Junior dog that doesn’t ask much of either the dog or handler. And They get to squeeze a little more revenue out of dogs and handlers they otherwise would have lost. WINNING!!!


One thing I think people either fail to understand, refuse to except or simply haven’t opened their eyes to. Is that the AKC now views HT’s as a money grab......


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

David Lo Buono said:


> One thing I think people either fail to understand, refuse to except or simply haven’t opened their eyes to. Is that the AKC now views HT’s as a money grab......


I don't have a way to quantify it, but in the total AKC budget, I would bet significant $ that if there were no retriever HT's, they would not even notice it. Compared to shows,hounds, beagles,bird dogs etc. we are not even to the 2nd decimal point in the budget. 
You keep stating that the tests are easier now than way back when. I titled my first MH in 2005 at age 2 and I would not even consider running that dog now at the level she was then. I'm a better trainer now and she was a very good dog, ended up MH and a 500 point HRCH, but she would not stand a chance these days.
Kicking a dead horse regards,
MP


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Rainmaker said:


> Then why on god's green earth do you list your HT titles, you should really just be ashamed of those participation ribbons.



Because unlike you I do not write checks, I train and hunt. If you trained your own dogs you just might understand what it takes to train to that level. No matter what you got start crap rather then state your own opinion. I have been to enough test running my own dogs that I trained to be able to say yes, test do get dumbed down. I personally have watched far more "master" level dogs get carried with slipped whistle after whistle then I should have. Been to two test under the same judge where every blind was placed exactly where the old fall was. There is a reason people judge shop.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Because unlike you I do not write checks, I train and hunt. If you trained your own dogs you just might understand what it takes to train to that level. No matter what you got start crap rather then state your own opinion. I have been to enough test running my own dogs that I trained to be able to say yes, test do get dumbed down. I personally have watched far more "master" level dogs get carried with slipped whistle after whistle then I should have. Been to two test under the same judge where every blind was placed exactly where the old fall was. There is a reason people judge shop.


Once again, you assume and judge. I have been to the line hundreds of times. I spend many days in the field training my dogs. For several decades now. We've even run the same Qualifyings for pete's sake (where, btw, I got ribbons, you didn't). For all that I love running, I love pheasant hunting even more, but, life being what it is, I don't get to do what I want all the time, or even much of the time, when it comes to just playing with the dogs. I am not independently wealthy, and I have familial responsibilities as well. Just because I also use a pro trainer, because of the other responsibilities in my life, does not preclude me from training as well, as much as I can. I would love to be able to train every day year round. That is my ideal. But it is not my reality. Which you know, but you are so bitterly angry and jealous, for whatever reason, that your blind hate of breeders and pro trainers and HT comes through loud and clear, on here and on Facebook. 

As for the actual topic of this thread, well, I don't do the numbers/title thing, haven't ever cared to run the MN or the new Master Amateur National thing, just not of interest to me. I don't care if others do, or what titles they want to pay for, they're enjoying a game with their dog, nothing wrong with that. AKC titles are to be had by the handful if you want to do nosework, barn hunts, chase a stuffed animal on a string, etc etc. If that's what it takes to encourage people to engage in some activity with their dog, doesn't bother me. Training dogs for HT/FT is very time and resource consuming, we know that, it is very hard to get new people into it, so if more titles and ribbons encourages those already in it, to stay in it, so be it.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

TODD - do you judge?


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## Gregg0211 (Feb 11, 2015)

No hes just a keyboard Jerk! What a POS!


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## Gregg0211 (Feb 11, 2015)

Todd, youre an idiot! you waste peoples time with your crap. Have you ever heard the saying, "if youre not part of the solution, youre part of the problem". Always run your mouth putting folks down on every social media outlet and you suck as a trainer and person. Do everyone a favor and delete all of you social media account and return DIRECTLY to your Moms basement and have her lock the damn door! GEEEZ. Nobody forces you to be a part of any test, you pay your allowance without forcible help. If you dont like it, dont show up. If any of this is too difficult for you to understand, have Mom draw you a picture to help. 



TODD SCHMADL said:


> [/B]This is exactly why the HT are "dumbed down" and participation ribbons are handed out.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I disagree with much of what is written on this thread but not what Mike Perry wrote. I don't think the lower stakes in HT have been dumbed down. I don't think the master tests are easier than 5-10 years ago. I don't think the AKC hunt tests are money grabs.

But everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. It is a public forum. I don't dis and call out TODD. I just put him on my ignore list.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Sheesh people. Who cares about numbers after a title? If someone wants to spend them money? Go for it! It’s a free country thanks to all the people that serve in the military! Thanks for your service!

Personally, this is about fun, friendships and dog relationships for me. I want the titles but I want the other three things more. 

As for cost of the test....and the price of junior? We’re lucky to break even at the price we have our test at. Ok. We could spend less on ribbons. But you know what? That’s what draws people to our test. Last MEMORIAL DAY....yes the holiday, we had 60+ entries each day in junior and 30+ in senior. 

I have the good fortune of being able to run some of those 40+ pass dogs in training. They are freakin incredible. Consistent. They run and Q under the easy, hard and dumba$$ setup judges. Don’t you want a consistent dog hunting?

Come out to our test! We have great ribbons, NEW club titling pins! Great food and LOTS of fun! Next month. Maryland. At some GREAT grounds owned by Milly Welsh and Charlie. Lab Club of the Potomac on EE.


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## ecrew6k* (Jan 2, 2018)

amen, amen


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I disagree with much of what is written on this thread but not what Mike Perry wrote. I don't think the lower stakes in HT have been dumbed down. I don't think the master tests are easier than 5-10 years ago. I don't think the AKC hunt tests are money grabs.
> 
> But everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. It is a public forum. I don't dis and call out TODD. I just put him on my ignore list.





David Lo Buono said:


> I
> Well, I think you can derive a couple of things from the diminished junior and senior entries first of senior has always had Comparatively low entries to the other two stakes.
> 
> Next, the cost of today’s junior Hunter stake is beyond the realm of ridiculous. Especially if you are trying to equate it to the weight of the title. But it will still Garner plenty of participation to be more then viable. But there’s a catch. I’ll get to that as well
> ...


 thanks for enlightening us


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