# Is this (normally) how a Senior Hunt Test looks?



## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

There's lots here I'm unsure of here. Being as there is a standard
but that clubs sort of have to enforce or not enforce those things in which they think is proper etc.,
does this all look like normal businesses to you?

#1: I thought deliver to hand meant to deliver to HEEL/HAND,
in Test after Started/Junior......no?
or is catching the bird on a Seasoned/Senior Test acceptable?

#2: Fake Gun?
Again, I've never seen a Fake Gun used either...... 

#3: Not listening to the Judge?
I thought the Judges suggestion was more or less a statement. But allowing the camera girl on the line?
I guess if it's your dog it's your screw up if something goes wrong huh?

#4: Vehicle passing during a run?
I had to step in as a Marshal a few weeks ago so the actual Marshal could run his dogs.
I've never been a Marshal and received no real instruction on how to be one,
but after a few weekends picked up on what the Marshal does.
The test was being run close to a road like this and I stopped all vehicles if a Dog was running.
Seems pretty common sense no?

Anyway I'm not trying to uber criticize here, I just want to know if this is normal buisness
so I know what to prepare for with my own dog. Moving vehicles around him while running is not 
something we normally train around. If it's something I have to train for/with then I will.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

The rule book addresses these issues, from the Marshall's responsibilities, to who is responsible for setting the test, the need to make safety of dogs and contestants a primary focus, to delivery of the bird.

Maybe if you point out if and where this test varies from the rules, we can discuss those specific variances.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Is it normal? It depends...most try and be polite and wait to move vehicles in between dogs, but we all know that it only takes a few to make it seem like everyone is being a jerk.

I did not watch your video, but I would say you should train with distractions and for the most part, it bugs the handler more so than the dog. In my training group, there are 101 things going on at the line and it does not bother the dogs for the most part, but it also trains us to keep an eye on our dogs while we are running and do everything within our power to help them, because judges won't always call a no-bird so you get what you get. As the handler you need to learn to ignore these things, focus on your dog and help as much as you can. 

Fake gun....get use to it in AKC, my club attempts to use a broken gun that won't fire, but at least it's the correct weight and form, however someone in the gallery normally offers up the fake wood gun that weighs next to nothing. I personally find it goofy to even bother with it, but when in Rome do what the Romans do. If you want to use a real gun and "shoot" then HRC is where you should go play. It is what it is, the dogs truly don't care.

As far as listening to the judges, well some people respect the position, others do not. If I'm judging and I make a suggestion, if people want to ignore it and it hurts their performance or callbacks, oh well, cry me a river.

Delivery to hand....it depends on the judges, I've been dropped for poor delivery in Senior and I've been allowed to get away with the JH lunge (years ago)...now MY standards are such that it doesn't matter. So I guess you should know your judges and/or up standards and not worry about the next guy/gal.

FOM


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

golfandhunter said:


> Maybe if you point out if and where this test varies from the rules,
> we can discuss those specific variances.


I'm asking...hence the ? on the end of my sentences.....








I don't know if and where this test varies if it all.....that's why I'm asking.

Based off of what I've observed at other Test, 
-not seeing a fake gun used
-vehicles being stopped
-not allowing anyone other than the handler near the line
-delivery to hand not involving catching outside of Started....

.... based off of that, seeing this Test on YouTube cause me to wonder
if this was all normal business in keeping with the standard defined?


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Was there a flyer in either of the marking tests? It's hard to tell in the video.-Paul


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

First bit of normal protocol I see being broken is not taking the dog into the holding blind on leash.This to the best of my understanding this is never allowed but I could be wrong. As far as bird delivery goes I'm not sure the rules at Senior level but it looks rushed and sloppy to me the way the dog delivers the bird. I like a dog to return to heal and wait for me to take the bird. 

The seated with a gun aspect of the water test is something I have not seen in a AKC test yet but it is something we do daily in real hunting situations. Over all looks like a fun test to me, that Alfalfa is sure hard for the dogs to hunt in... has my butt hole clinched up the entire time


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

motor-vater said:


> As far as bird delivery goes I'm not sure the rules at Senior level
> but it looks rushed and sloppy to me the way you take your bird. I like a dog to return to heal and wait for me to take the bird.


Yea now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to discuss what we LIKE to see etc.
I'm wondering if the *Deliver to Hand Standard* means catching the bird before the dog even slows down 
much less returns to heel.




motor-vater said:


> Over all looks like a fun test to me,


YES! Definitely.... By the way, I'm not wanting to undercut you here, not my intention at all 
just pointed that out above as to try and stay on topic of what is the standard 
and if this Test was indeed within standard. ;-)


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Dustin D said:


> I'm asking...hence the ? on the end of my sentences.....
> 
> I don't know if and where this test varies if it all.....that's why I'm asking.
> 
> ...


I didn't watch the video so I am only commenting on your questions. For the most part, other than what I mentioned above that directly involve you I would worry much about it. If someones dog has a sloppy delivery that is something that is not going to serve them well in master. If someone wants a photographer at the line and you are not on the line, why does it matter?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

After watching the video I will say this. As a judge I would score you lower on trainability for the way your dog delivers. I am always suspicious of a handler that has to be quick to take the bird on EVERY bird. The last water mark was waaaay SLOPPY and indicates to me that you have not succeeded in your FF. Still a passing score perhaps, but a lower score. Again technically that was delivered to hand, but very sloppy. That is a you problem that I would spend as much time as necessary fixing. There are many judges, especially master, that would not score you high enough in trainability and/or style to pass. 

As far as the gun goes, when I first read that there was no fake gun I assumed you meant there was no gun at all. As far as I know there is nothing that says a real gun cannot be used and I have seen them used many times. What does bother me about the use of this gun is that I would have dropped the judge for gun safety for carrying the gun by the barrel with it pointed at his head.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

What you can learn from that video is:

Noise/manners issues in the blind are possibly going to extend to the field and I’d not want mine acting like that. 

Sending too fast on marks & blinds. Would help the dog’s marking if allowed to settle and focus for a bit. Also looks to be nearly blocking the left bird on the WM honor, notice how honor dog has to move forward to see it. That’s what happens when one doesn’t put their dog where they can see the marks. Dog naturally wants to move to see. 

Sit your dog and let him settle, try not to block his view of the marks or put him where he has to make big movements to see them go down, you want dog by your knee to be able to respond to your minute adjustments.


Nothing wrong with that delivery per the rules. Nothing in the rules says you have to heel the dog then take the bird, delivery to hand is all that’s required (most judges want to see the dog actually make it back to the line though  ). Now, having a higher standard than what was shown has nothing to do with the rules, nor will you see that kind of delivery very often, not from people who run much anyway.

Land blind wasn’t pretty. Water blind was worse, at least as far as IL, getting in water and cast refusals. Handler should have waited on the vehicle to completely exit before running the blind. As far as the vehicle being there, get used to it and be aware. Driver may not have been paying attention or thought dog was done, had time to get out, whatever. Always put your dog first, even if it means stopping your dog in case of a vehicle coming, sort it out with the judges later.

Putting that leash on while still in front of the judges would get you dropped by many, or at least a warning, around here anyway. Need to get away from the line and behind the judges, unless they said otherwise. Per the rules: "Leashes and collars shall be used as follows: In Senior
and Master Tests, dogs shall be brought to the line and
taken from the line off-lead and without collars. Collars
and leashes may be put on the dogs after they leave the
line and are in back of all the Judges. Dogs shall be considered
under judgment from the time that they are called
to come to the line until they have left the line and are in
back of all judges."

Don’t turn your back on the dog to chat with the judges.

Fake guns = not uncommon.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Agree with BBG on the gun safety too, handler was pretty loose. The rules do not specifically say no fake guns, guess a fake gun could be seen as an empty one? We don't see many fake ones anymore, but once in a while. Some judges get pretty sticky on the shouldering too, while others don't. Get in the habit of shouldering, most hunters are going to, but, easy to forget in the excitement at the line, especially when you know you aren't really shooting anything.  

"Handlers while running their dogs, and Judges while
acting in their official capacities judging dogs, shall not fire guns with live or blank ammunition.
It is recommended that all gunning be accomplished
with breaking type shotguns, and that the guns be broken
(or cased) when not in use. Host clubs must be aware of
government regulations on the type of shot allowed at the
test location. It is recommended that gunners wear ear and
eye protecting devices.
Only 20 gauge to 12 gauge shotguns should be used.
Gunners firing live ammunition must be 21 years of age or
older. Gunners firing popper loads must be a minimum of
16 years of age and if less than 21, must have successfully
completed a Hunter/Gun Safety course.
Shouldering the Gun In Senior and Master Tests,
handlers shall always carry and shoulder an empty shotgun
except when honoring the working dog or when running
a blind. The gun shall not be used as a pointing device to
direct the dog’s attention to the bird.
It shall be the responsibility of the test-giving club
to provide an empty shotgun and it shall further be the
responsibility of the Marshal to ensure that the shotgun
is unloaded.
In gunning stations it is recommended that non-break
open guns be placed in gun stands when not in use.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm not going to comment on the video itself but IMO after viewing the whole video my answer would be yes that is your typical AKC SH test with all the distractions. 

PS Paul Young I believe the flyer was the go-bird in the land series.


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## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

This is a great video, and looks like a nice test. So far it has been my experience that; dog is required to heel and hold the bird until command is given to release it. Fake gun is always used, and judges and or marshalls rarely pay attention to vehicle traffic of any kind. 

What i found interesting in your video is sitting in a chair or on a bucket or cooler for working dog at the line, and honor. I have never seen that before, Judges usually give instruction at the beginning handlers meeting, (it looked like the judge was giving the handler instruction in the last holding blind), asking for questions at that time. Lastly, it appeared that the dog got to run both series, without callbacks? I have never seen the water series, or second series run without waiting for callbacks to see if you made it that far. Interesting, and great value for the entry fee. Also eleviates waiting hours for callbacks... done and done. Cool!


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Dustin D said:


> There's lots here I'm unsure of here. Being as there is a standard
> but that clubs sort of have to enforce or not enforce those things in which they think is proper etc.,
> does this all look like normal businesses to you?
> 
> ...


Lastly, I watched the video and feel there is a lot to be desired on this Senior run. The test appear fair, but the line to the water blind was not challenged in my opinion. Yes, it was a difficult blind concept for Senior, but fair. Challenge the line better. Also the handler had many areas where improvement could be made. 

From the video it appeared the dog was the first to run the land series judging by the empty bird dryer behind the judges and the lack of duck scent probably didn't help the dog on the GO bird.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Dazed said:


> This is a great video, and looks like a nice test. So far it has been my experience that; dog is required to heel and hold the bird until command is given to release it. Fake gun is always used, and judges and or marshalls rarely pay attention to vehicle traffic of any kind.
> 
> What i found interesting in your video is sitting in a chair or on a bucket or cooler for working dog at the line, and honor. I have never seen that before, Judges usually give instruction at the beginning handlers meeting, (it looked like the judge was giving the handler instruction in the last holding blind), asking for questions at that time. Lastly, it appeared that the dog got to run both series, without callbacks? I have never seen the water series, or second series run without waiting for callbacks to see if you made it that far. Interesting, and great value for the entry fee. Also eleviates waiting hours for callbacks... done and done. Cool!


Fake gun is not always used. Judges and marshals are very often aware of the traffic, more so than not, but no one can see everything all the time. Bucket for handler is common, either working, honor or both. As far as callbacks, that video was not real time. There would have been a break and callbacks between land and water series. Or almost always anyway, sometimes they will run back to back I guess if there aren't many entries or the test setup allows such, but that isn't common.
"8. A series is defined as one or more hunting
situations ending with callbacks, and an invitation by the
Judges to continue, or, in the case of the last series in a
test, final scores."


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks folks for your outstanding replies.

I like to get a feel for the higher standard and train towards that 
rather training to what's acceptable.

Thanks again!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

1 judge in white.
the other judge trying to shoot hisself!
neither judge pays attention to the honor!.

Dog was noisy, horrible delivery, overly happy (Dont put up with that!)
handler was nervous dint shoulder the gun, sent to fast.

Perty typical Senior test to me!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Like Lainee said,, train for distractions.. Learn to tune out all the noise and commotion from behind you.. (Like Lainee makin comments about how yer shorts fit,, you transmitter in your pocket,,the dog lined up wrong,, your hat on bakards,,ECTECTECTECTECT!!!!) The dogs ignore it,,, WE dont.. Dont turn and talk to the judges,, we all know they are there just to get you,, so dont talk to them.. focus on the dog..


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Looks like a normal test to me. Would I have a different standard or have done things different? Yes! As most have pointed out what transpires in the video (could only stand to watch the first bird delivered), is not perfect but reflects nothing that I haven't seen a thousand times.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Just talking about the "gun". I have seen recently judges being very picky about gun handling and safety and rightly so. Recognizing that many HTers are not hunters or even shooters "gun safety" is an important issue to address. Additionally I think you would have missed both birds as the gun was "pseudo aimed". Meaning shouldered but not aimed properly and that is what I am seeing judges getting fussy about this summer. That being said I cannot imagine anyone being dropped for that issue but things add up when judges have to talk it over. AKC likes clubs to invest in breaking shotguns that have been disabled but I am against the cost and am okay with fakers.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Dustin D said:


> Thanks folks for your outstanding replies.
> 
> I like to get a feel for the higher standard and train towards that
> rather training to what's acceptable.
> ...


Oh, you'll be praying for generous/inattentive judges, at some point, lol (not at all implying that's the judges in the particular video listed here). It's nice to have the perfect dog give the perfect run and be the perfect handler, very easy to backseat drive, but, at the real thing, it can be just survival to the end and hold your breath for a ribbon. Sometimes, your dog will do very well, overall, much better in general than others you will see pass, but you won't get a ribbon, for some reason, so, taking satisfaction in your own high standards may be all you get that weekend. Just know that high standards pay off in the long run.


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## golfandhunter (Oct 5, 2009)

Dustin D said:


> I'm asking...hence the ? on the end of my sentences.....
> View attachment 20749
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I did see your "?" My point is, that you should try go based off of the rule book rather than what you've observed. 
For example, shouldering if the gun... If the rule book requires shouldering of the gun, you should shoulder the gun when handling and make sure to judge according to the rules rather than what you observe. 
The same is true of delivery, the use of fake guns, test safety, etc.

If no one ever goes to the rule book for the answers, then we will end up with judges that make up their own rules and rules that are inconsistently applied. Oh, wait... Maybe that's where we are already. Just something to think about. 

Have be you studied the rule book?


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Wow! The brash attitude that people display here is quite off putting. 

A video is a video, being there in person, participating in that actual test, and personally knowing the judges...

Stuff happens, there was never an instance when the vehicles posed a danger to the dogs and it really wouldn't interfere with the dog's work unless you haven't adequately trained! One case in the water series the dog was asked to re-run because the possibility that a vehicle (unauthorized to move through the test) did so. The vehicles were not an issue in the land series. We had a huge interruption in the land series which is not shown on the video and had other issues arise that day that were beyond controlling or planning for.

I am sure both judges took into account the dog's delivery to hand with all training aspects of the test. Fake wooden guns are normal in the AKC Hunt tests on those grounds. The judge accused of unsafe handling of a gun maybe should have handled the wooden gun differently but has never had a misstep or unsafe mannerisms around firearms ever. It was a long day people, apparently no one here makes missteps. 

The marshall was a first time marshall who in the opinion of someone who has filled those shoes many times before did a darn good job. 

I train on these grounds 4-5 times a week. I volunteer and work hard so that tests like these can happen as do a heck of a lot of people. This was a good challenging test and dogs who passed reflect the senior standard. Watching on video and actually running the test are two totally different things. 

One of the judges wore white, is that the end of the world? Hell no, she volunteer her weekend and accidentally wore the wrong color. No one who participated in the test cared one bit! 

Paul: There were live flyers in both series. The land had the walk-up with the memory left to right the go flyer right to left and the blind on the side of the memory bird. The blind looked simple but all of the handlers had a hard time with the depth perception of the terrain, myself included. Again, something that a video cannot express. 

The water series had the memory left to right and the live flyer station also left to right with a shoreline blind to the right of the line. 

The handler is a nice guy who doesn't have access to good grounds and came out of state to run the test. They were brave enough to film their dog's work for all of you to quickly pounce on. There is always room for improvement and at the end of the day it is a dog!! Great people and good dog with excellent judges, a very good quality test, great grounds, great gunners, and a heck of a lot of time spent on every avenue of those involved!! 

Get a grip!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I like beer.

/Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

jrrichar said:


> Wow! The brash attitude that people display here is quite off putting.
> 
> A video is a video, being there in person, participating in that actual test, and personally knowing the judges...
> 
> ...



You are correct!
Judges show up in white, vehicles drive the roads when dogs are working, people forget gun safety when using plywood,, Handlers are nervous, on and on and on....
But,, if you watch the dog in the video,, did any of that matter to him? Very eager dog performing at the level he has been trained to.. He did a respectable job that would absolutely designate him as a *Senior* hunter by rule...,, but the question the OP asked was did the video represent a typical senior hunt test? Anyone who has run them would answer YES!! Overly eager dogs, not a polished delivery quite yet,nervous handlers, all typical of a senior test.

The dogs dont care about ANY of the HUMAN requirements that are put on us at tests,, they just work,, and hopefully there are folks present that take extra time to evaluate that dogs work.... That's ALL its about..
The video to me was typical of a senior test!!
I think us Humans make more mistakes than the dogs!!......... TYPICALLY!


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

MooseGooser said:


> You are correct!
> Judges show up in white, vehicles drive the roads when dogs are working, people forget gun safety when using plywood,, Handlers are nervous, on and on and on....
> But,, if you watch the dog in the video,, did any of that matter to him? Very eager dog performing at the level he has been trained to.. He did a respectable job that would absolutely designate him as a *Senior* hunter by rule...,, but the question the OP asked was did the video represent a typical senior hunt test? Anyone who has run them would answer YES!! Overly eager dogs, not a polished delivery quite yet,nervous handlers, all typical of a senior test.
> 
> ...


In agreement, just not liking the tone that others were quickly taking with the marshall, judges, and handler. A very typical SH test. The work reflected there can be common but again dogs that day did far better and far worse then the handler and dog in the video. If you want to "win" the hunt test compared to the other handlers it is called a field trial. 

Train above and beyond and you should be ok but stuff can always happen, especially true of SH and MH tests.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

MooseGooser said:


> but the question the OP asked was did the video represent a typical senior hunt test?
> Anyone who has run them would answer YES!! Overly eager dogs, not a polished delivery quite yet,
> nervous handlers, all typical of a senior test.


Ding! Ding! Ding! Thank You Sir!

Just gauging what to expect folks....no underlying side bar agenda here....

I've read the rule Hunt Test Rule books for both AKC and UKC. I read them still when watching videos like this 
and before/after Hunt Test. Still the Rules don't exactly clarify everything so crystal clear 
that no one should ever have any questions. 

If they were that clear, then no two Hunt Test should ever look any different.....but they do
and sometimes what is and isn't acceptable also varies.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Typical test IMO. Water blind a little much for me for senior but by no means out of the realm of doability. The long entry to a angle entry is my only concern. With a long entry like that, I would have expected the bird to be further to the left to give the dog a decent chance to hit the water on the initial cast. Land blind a little sloppy with a couple refusals and the dog barely got in the water on the water blind, but all in all a pass IMO. Not a perfect pass by any means, but still counts toward the title which is what really counts at the end of the day.
I have been reminded several times in handlers meetings to have both hands on the gun and shoulder it. I don't see why the gun is even in the test at all because all resemblance to real gunning left the HT game a long long time ago.
Dog was vocal which is a pet peeve of mine. Personal preference only. I just can't stand it. But line manners were good. 
As far as delivery, the dog did deliver to hand, did not freeze and presented an edible bird. I don't see any problem with the delivery at all. Not how I do it, but he met the requirements which is all that should be judged.
Some work to be done before moving up, but IMO a decent Senior Hunter level dog.
MP


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Dustin D said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding! Thank You Sir!
> 
> Just gauging what to expect folks....no underlying side bar agenda here....
> 
> ...


IMHO, It was just average work with lots of room for improvement that can add up. Mainly the handler.

Traffic is always a concern and sometimes something slips thru.

Gun safety is a big deal to me and I would drop someone if warned and still shows a lack of respect for the firearm, wooden or not.

Train for stuff to happen and you will be fine.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

jrrichar said:


> The handler is a nice guy who doesn't have access to good grounds and came out of state to run the test.
> They were brave enough to film their dog's work for all of you to quickly pounce on.


Do you know Fred Hassen personally?

I knew he uploaded *this* video, 
but didn't realize that was actually him handling the dog.

I would think he has plenty of places to train considering his activity level.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

I know of at least one top field trial amateur, having produced several FC's, that trains on public grounds in the Las Vegas area, so it should not be that hard for a professional trainer like Fred to get a dog to the Senior level.

That looks like a normal AKC Senior to me.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

If that's the "sit means sit" Fred Hassan, then I think he and his dog should go work on his deliveries before he runs another senior test! Otherwise, the handler looks like anyone else who is new to HTs, has a young dog, is nervous, sends the dog too fast, etc., Not someone who professes to be a trainer. The pros are usually easily identifiable because they may have young overeager dogs, but they take their time after being released by the judge and before sending on the memory bird and/or blinds. And I'm one who's also grabbed the bird from my dog before she came to heel and sat in senior, because that's where she developed a sticking problem... but I'm not a pro and have never pretended to be one!


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

do the senior hunt tests get timed for how fast you get the dog to pick up all the birds?


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

It is Fred and he does run tests in CA. I spoke with him at a HT in CA in May. His wife is his camera person.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

jrrichar said:


> Wow! The brash attitude that people display here is quite off putting.
> 
> A video is a video, being there in person, participating in that actual test, and personally knowing the judges...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info concerning the fliers, Jan.-Paul


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Dustin D said:


> Do you know Fred Hassen personally?
> 
> I knew he uploaded *this* video,
> but didn't realize that was actually him handling the dog.
> ...


LMAO !! I was gonna say that handler handled an awful lot like Fred!!! But his hair was not blonde enough!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

If I were selling dog obedience franchises named "Sit means Sit" for big money, I would NOT have posted this video


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

A very typical Senior test, for this Area. The Water blind is doable, but seems a bit tough for an inexperienced handler; An experienced handler would put a fast whistle, and establish control, before the dog even got close to the water. If not a lot of dogs are gonna get too much momentum on that long entry and cheat before the handler would think to stop it, and we're talking Senior a lot of nervous handlers who probably wouldn't even know their name if you were to ask them on the line . This handler was able to get the dog wet, so most likely a pass, at the senior level, but not much water in the blind. Completely Legal blind though. As for trucks, this test takes place at a dog park, where many different kinds of working dogs train, many different events going on during any weekend. Marks are typical, stick gun typical (should always be seeing some sort of gun in SH & MH as it's the rules). Trucks driving by typical, especially at this location, where people pay to get in and many are not associated with any test, nor know that they might be interfering; makes it pretty much impossible to completely stop such traffic. If you run a test there your going to get a few cars crossing over, sometimes a few sheep or maybe even a pointing dog or spaniel running through. Train for distractions because they definitely happen .


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Am I the only one who thinks the dog actually broke on the WB? I don't know if from the judges POV if that's really possible, but it looked like dog was gone before handler stuck his arm out or said something.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Dustin D said:


> Do you know Fred Hassen personally?
> 
> I knew he uploaded *this* video,
> but didn't realize that was actually him handling the dog.
> ...


Yes, I have personally met Fred and his wife. Yes, he is a pro trainer. 

I am not advocating Fred's business, his training, or that particular dog, all I am saying is take the video for what it is worth. His wife highlighting their work to date with one of their dogs. Was it a perfect run at the test? No, but it was to the AKC standard. Was it to my personal standard? No, but that is not what the dog is judged against. Again, easy to be judge and jury from a distance/after the fact. I have seen many a top pros go out on tests for things that they should easily been able to control/train for but at the end of the day....it is a DOG!! Sometimes dogs do crazy stuff and all you can do is hang your head and come back another time.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

mjh345 said:


> If I were selling dog obedience franchises named "Sit means Sit" for big money, I would NOT have posted this video


Obedience is not Hunt testing nor field work, definitely not mutually exclusive everyone has to develop their first dogs and everyone has to learn how to run tests. Not sure how being good at obedience, or rally, or tracking or anything else dealing with dogs is supposed to make one a prodigy at hunt testing or field work. I know I had a good bit to learn about dog running, when I started in these events. Having videos to show me and others what needs work might've helped a bunch, having such videos to look back on after years of running those first dogs might have been a good thing, just to knock me off my horse a bit because No one is perfect to start .


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

jrrichar said:


> Yes, I have personally met Fred and his wife. Yes, he is a pro trainer.
> 
> I am not advocating Fred's business, his training, or that particular dog, all I am saying is take the video for what it is worth. His wife highlighting their work to date with one of their dogs. Was it a perfect run at the test? No, but it was to the AKC standard. Was it to my personal standard? No, but that is not what the dog is judged against. Again, easy to be judge and jury from a distance/after the fact. I have seen many a top pros go out on tests for things that they should easily been able to control/train for but at the end of the day....it is a DOG!! Sometimes dogs do crazy stuff and all you can do is hang your head and come back another time.


Right...but none of what the dog did or didn't do is what the OP is about 

Just saying...


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Dustin D said:


> Right...but none of what the dog did or didn't do is what the OP is about
> 
> Just saying...


Agreed, but the post took quite a nasty turn and it became about what the handler, judges, and dog did and didn't do. That was why I originally replied! Had no merits on you or your original questions.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

You better train for distractions, and it helps if you recognize when something weird is going on.

I was running a SR test a week ago Sunday at the Cattle Ranch. We had done well on land, had picked up the marks on water, and had only to complete the water blind (on and off a point) and then honor to get a pass. I send the dog on the blind and he lines to the point, where I stop him. then things got a little crazy.

Instead of looking right at me, my dog glances at me and then starts staring a hole through something to my right. This is not normal; usually he stares at me so he will know exactly which cast he is going to blow off. I just stopped for a minute and then eased my head over to the right.

My helper at the line (I marshaled), who was great all day, picked that time to get up and go walking off down the road behind me in his solid white uniform, and my dog absolutely locked onto him. We got the helper to sit down, and I was able to cast the dog to the bird. He held it together on honor and we passed.

The poor guy had no idea what he was doing. You really just have to be ready for anything.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

T.Bond said:


> do the senior hunt tests get timed for how fast you get the dog to pick up all the birds?


Two minutes forty five seconds per bird on land and an extra minute on water. The blinds are timed and fastest dog gets three extra points.


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

is it for each bird or for two. I used my timer and started it when it looked like the judge said go. Because the guy in black looked like he was in a hurry to get started with his dog for the bird to get shot. It was 2:46 seconds for both birds. It must have been a close one! LOL ahahaa. I bet that is why he was(the dog trainer) in a hurry.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Dustin D said:


> There's lots here I'm unsure of here. Being as there is a standard
> but that clubs sort of have to enforce or not enforce those things in which they think is proper etc.,
> does this all look like normal businesses to you?
> 
> ...


I watched the video nothing seemed too out of the ordinary to me. I presume that's not you handling the dog. I could easily critique the run but that's not what you asked about.

1) He's marginal on his delivery to hand, not great but would pass a senior hunt test. No rule that says the dog has to be sitting at heel to deliver the bird.
2) Fake gun happens all the time. It's been a while but I don't think I ever held a real gun in AKC hunt test while I put four titles on a few dogs.
3) Did the judges say the camera girl (I assume that's who's filming the run) shouldn't be there but they did it anyway?
4) The handler should have waited 4-10 seconds for the car to get out of the way.


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## Scott Krueger (Jan 25, 2008)

just from watching the delivery is hand is not even attempted....he stands in front of his dog to block and then steals bird from dog....have seen people pull their dog for being that loud in holding blind also..hard to tell but didnt the dog cheat the water blind pretty bad and use the land???..they passed this???


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> I presume that's not you handling the dog.
> I could easily critique the run but that's not what you asked about.


No sir not me....just a vid that popped up on my Youtube feed.
Apparently it's actually Fred Hassen from Sit Means Sit.....?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Dustin D said:


> No sir not me....just a vid that popped up on my Youtube feed.
> Apparently it's actually Fred Hassen from Sit Means Sit.....?


So that's Fred, I was wondering about the sleeveless hunting garb.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Choc24/7 said:


> just from watching the delivery is hand is not even attempted....he stands in front of his dog to block and then steals bird from dog....have seen people pull their dog for being that loud in holding blind also..hard to tell but didnt the dog cheat the water blind pretty bad and use the land???..they passed this???


Like I said, lots to critique, too much actually. I imagine the dog passed by the skin of his teeth, another judge could easily fail that dog, but judges are pretty lenient in Senior. That dog and handler are light years away from passing the easiest master test.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

John Robinson said:


> Like I said, lots to critique, too much actually. I imagine the dog passed by the skin of his teeth, another judge could easily fail that dog, but judges are pretty lenient in Senior. That dog and handler are light years away from passing the easiest master test.


On the other hand I do like the dog's attitude! (no one said anything about that)


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

MissSkeeter said:


> On the other hand I do like the dog's attitude! (no one said anything about that)



I DID!!!

How come you all ignore Gooser?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Gooser, we don't ingnore you. You are just too honest for most of us!


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Gooser clearly the judge in question made his first mistake by taking the gun that Fred had clearly not put the safety on and had not broken open the gun to show it was safe!! Clearly everyone that ran that test should have been failed for unsafe gun handling because no one did that. But to make it worse that judge is wearing a California Hunter Safety Education hat. 
Fred asked at the handlers briefing if someone could film him and was told yes they could film his dog and if that caused any problems for the dog he would have to live with them.
The water blind was a very tough 30-35 yard shoreline blind. Clearly not the best choice for a senior test, but I would expect a senior dog to handled into the water at 15 yards. I would however expect that senior dogs would not show a pretty blind on something like that.
The noise on the line for land wasn't repeated at water. 
I noticed Fred was the only one that picked up the water marks "memory" bird first and flyer second. 
The car situation is always a problem there and I know that the judge wearing camo actually stepped in front of a car that wouldn't stop the next day while judging junior. 
Of course he also went and stopped the 15 foot wide mower that was trying to cut the field during the senior test so he might not be right in the head 
Sometimes judges just do the best with what they have to work with
If you have some more questions about that specific test I can answer them as I had a pretty good seat for the whole test..


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

T.Bond said:


> is it for each bird or for two. I used my timer and started it when it looked like the judge said go. Because the guy in black looked like he was in a hurry to get started with his dog for the bird to get shot. It was 2:46 seconds for both birds. It must have been a close one! LOL ahahaa. I bet that is why he was(the dog trainer) in a hurry.



Per bird. That was a pretty fast dog. You might want to contact the guy in the video. He is a really special trainer and knows how to get dogs to go just about as soon as the birds hit the ground, maybe even sooner. He also know how to train a dog to give you the bird quickly so you can move on to the second faster.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

My comments:

1. Deliver to hand does not mean sit to deliver or come to heel to deliver. 
2. Fake gun is not unusual.
3. Not listening to the judge---whether request or suggestion, I would have moved. I took this to be a suggestion. However, considering the handler was dressed in black and easy to spot, I don't think the dog would have been distracted by others.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> Gooser clearly the judge in question made his first mistake by taking the gun that Fred had clearly not put the safety on and had not broken open the gun to show it was safe!! Clearly everyone that ran that test should have been failed for unsafe gun handling because no one did that. But to make it worse that judge is wearing a California Hunter Safety Education hat.
> Fred asked at the handlers briefing if someone could film him and was told yes they could film his dog and if that caused any problems for the dog he would have to live with them.
> The water blind was a very tough 30-35 yard shoreline blind. Clearly not the best choice for a senior test, but I would expect a senior dog to handled into the water at 15 yards. I would however expect that senior dogs would not show a pretty blind on something like that.
> The noise on the line for land wasn't repeated at water.
> ...


So,,, that why I stated I thought the dog did a credible job!,, nice happy eager dog,,,, the humans ,,not so much! Perty typical test in my humble opinion , including the shoreline blind,which by the way,MOST of the Senior tests I ran this last season included shoreline blinds!....Dog was awesome for a Senior dog!
The human stuff just happens at tests,, and Ya got to work through that TYPICAL stuff also,,and do your best!

Thank GOD we have people that will donate their time to evaluate these dog! Of course they are not perfect,, but then again,,we seem to expect the dogs to be!...This was a Senior test! Ya see a LOT of young dogs and Young dog stuff!....TYPICALLY!!!!


I thought the test grounds shown in the Video were beautiful!!


I am sure If Flinch saw that truck drivin down that road right before she was gonna run a water blind,,would have absolutely chased that truck down, beggin to get inside where it was safe and dry! Shes perty smart!!...... I prolly would have had one a my hissy fits ,,just to stall a bit!!,,, ANNNND I prolly woulda had to say "No" so she would understand she couldnt get in the truck just yet!! She really like Crates! with blankies and toys!!


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> Gooser clearly the judge in question made his first mistake by taking the gun that Fred had clearly not put the safety on and had not broken open the gun to show it was safe!! Clearly everyone that ran that test should have been failed for unsafe gun handling because no one did that. But to make it worse that judge is wearing a California Hunter Safety Education hat.
> Fred asked at the handlers briefing if someone could film him and was told yes they could film his dog and if that caused any problems for the dog he would have to live with them.
> The water blind was a very tough 30-35 yard shoreline blind. Clearly not the best choice for a senior test, but I would expect a senior dog to handled into the water at 15 yards. I would however expect that senior dogs would not show a pretty blind on something like that.
> The noise on the line for land wasn't repeated at water.
> ...


Amen Kelly... in case people don't know he was the judge in the video!! Excellent test, excellent judging, PERIOD. People who were there and ran a dog are certainly allowed their critiques for everyone else....a video is a video, real life is just that! This thread was never about slamming Fred, Kelly, or any of the other things that people continue to peck at. 

You are always more then welcome to post videos of your dogs competing in a test! Stones and glass house, regards.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Anyone notice that the judge in camo seems to have misplaced 30-40 lbs? Probably why he let a pretty girl video the test of her dog getting it's TITLE .


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## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

Question I have on the water is why would you pull the dog of the long angle go bird and sent him to the squared entry short bird straight across?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

25-ott-06 said:


> Question I have on the water is why would you pull the dog of the long angle go bird and sent him to the squared entry short bird straight across?


Maybe he was worried about the dog caving into the shorter memory bird on the way to the long go-bird. As somebody else said, he apparently was the only handler to pick them up in that order, so it wasn't a problem for the other dogs. I can only speculate was the handler was thinking.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Holy cow! Tough crowd.

Me thinks many of the critics are very naive.

Finn got the marks, good dog! Finn went where sent, good dog! He even got pulled off the "go-bird" to get the "memory" bird. Finn loves his job, great dog! Finn worked with his handler, good dog!

Finn was never in danger, good judges! 

I challenge any of you critics to put up a video of your dog for RTF to dissect :

Glass Houses regards.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

mitty said:


> Holy cow! Tough crowd.
> 
> Me thinks many of the critics are very naive.
> 
> ...


Here Ya go Mitty and Kelly! Dissect away!!! There is a ton of issues here!!!


http://vid137.photobucket.com/album...die line manners/Standards Video/127_0379.mp4


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Notice the strategic use of the word "NO!!!!! the stupid handler uses when she decides to do her bidness!!!

I cant believe I posted this!! ,, But He!! That guy deserves some serious critique!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Wow Mike , I did not know you were allowed to wear a collar at a test! I will have to try that next time ;-)


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Wow Mike , I did not know you were allowed to wear a collar at a test! I will have to try that next time ;-)


You can't call him by his given name, Gooser is as short as you are allowed here on RTF. I wouldn't know what to do if we all stared calling him Mike, yikes!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Miss Bodine!

the video was a training day! I dint have my collar on that day, but beliieve me, on test day , everyone in the gallery makes sure I am wearing MY collar! Its set to 6 by the way! I can run right through it!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Goodness Gooser, Maddi was a handful. I post videos all the time for constructive reviews. ML does also. Maybe a few more people could do the same. It's not that painful.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Goodness Gooser, Maddi was a handful. I post videos all the time for constructive reviews. ML does also. Maybe a few more people could do the same. It's not that painful.


I did....once or twice I think. 

Got grilled by you Wayne  on stepping off with the wrong foot when leaving my dog at Sit/Heel 

I learned a lot from that post and the PM's that came with it.

Boy have we come a loooooong way.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

25-ott-06 said:


> Question I have on the water is why would you pull the dog of the long angle go bird and sent him to the squared entry short bird straight across?


I am often guilty of over analyzing a test but here are a few reasons. A dog thoroughly schooled in primary selection would be expected to pick up the short bird first. With the wind blowing right to left a dog might honor his nose & turn to get the short bird while going for the long bird. With a dog schooled not to return to old falls getting the short bird first minimizes that risk. Didn't watch the blind but often order of pickup can minimize or maximize suction. Also watching other dogs in the field may have given a compelling reason.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

badbullgator said:


> Per bird. That was a pretty fast dog. You might want to contact the guy in the video. He is a really special trainer and knows how to get dogs to go just about as soon as the birds hit the ground, maybe even sooner. He also know how to train a dog to give you the bird quickly so you can move on to the second faster.


Secretariat holds the record time for the Derby. Who has the record time for a Senior? Was Qui Chang or Fred the trainer of said record holder?


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## msdaisey (May 13, 2004)

I could only watch the beginning of the video, but all I can say is how sad. That dog passed????? And the handler is really a pro?


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> O Not sure how being good at obedience, or rally, or tracking or anything else dealing with dogs is supposed to make one a prodigy at hunt testing or field work. .


It all starts with OB. 
This guy is SUPPOSED to be an OB"prodigy" who sells OB franhises. They are named "SIT MEANS SIT" His dog was pretty sloppy and slipped numerous "SIT" whistles on the Land Blind and had other OB issues.
It was a SR test and I'd have prolly passe3d him. I'm just saying I don't believe I would use his "SIT MEANS SIT" services or buy a franchise based on what I saw of his dogs OB


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Fred is back on RTF whether he know's it or not


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

2tall said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the dog actually broke on the WB? I don't know if from the judges POV if that's really possible, but it looked like dog was gone before handler stuck his arm out or said something.


How can you break on a WB??


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Todd Caswell said:


> How can you break on a WB??


If the judges say you are on your own, then you Can't. Otherwise you could if they said you had to be released before running the blind


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Todd Caswell said:


> How can you break on a WB??


I wouldn't call it a break per se, but I have had my dog take after I said dead bird and put my hand down. Hasn't happened in a trial but has in training.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> I wouldn't call it a break per se, but I have had my dog take after I said dead bird and put my hand down. Hasn't happened in a trial but has in training.


Me to, gave a dog a 2nd. in a Q that went as the handler started to put his hand in, dog was about 10 yards out and handler whispered "back" co judge and I chuckled about it during callbacks. Dog and handler were on there own for the blind..


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

someone sent me this I think you gyus are messing w me https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Most of the things I saw on the video were due to handler inexperience at the hunt test level. Being a professional obedience trainer means nothing has far as field trial or hunt test obedience. In fact AKC obedience means nothing as far as hunt test or field trial obedience. It is all modified. Breaking on the hand is a forward motion with the body most of the time , blind or mark. It should be a ready, set, go sequence anyway.
The team work I think between dog and handler was just inexperience. The delivery was frontal, looked almost like he felt dog was going to drop bird. The water blind at best was marginal. In my opinion he would never get past a fumble in the senior or luck or judges passing a large percentage of dogs. He needs to go back and train his dog for hunt tests. The test itself I thought were good tests and were senior like in set-ups. The rest of it with any complaints is "small potatoes" , but, of course we saw only one dog. Same old perfect World complaints.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Question I have on the water is why would you pull the dog of the long angle go bird and sent him to the squared entry short bird straight across?


I'm guessing because he can,,,and did it quite nicely too. Dog moves very well with the handler,,,especially for that TYPE of dog. Can't say that about most senior dogs and a lot of MH's and many dogs running an open,, that are of this TYPE or not. The handling did not do justice for the dog,,but he is a senior handler. Everyone can be a better handler,,and we are all in different stages of development . He is actually a very good bite dog handler and anytime you switch disciplines there is a learning curve and an adjustment in motor skills, It also takes time to learn to read and respond to factors, such as was clearly evident on the water blind. It would be very entertaining to watch some of you handle a dog. Many have been entertained by my video's too,,at least there good for something.
Pete


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## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

FYI to you guys I am new sort of speak that question wasn't to bash him for that decision I just wandered why for my own knowledge.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> FYI to you guys I am new sort of speak that question wasn't to bash him for that decision I just wandered why for my own knowledge.


I know you weren't being critical,,, I just added some other commentary directed toward other posts. 

Pete


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Pete said:


> I'm guessing because he can,,,


Plus in Seasoned/Senior, I'm assuming that stopping him before the turn of the water,
and casting him with a left back would have been too risky with a possible cast refusal right?

Seems like at this level, cheating the bank is not a HIT.

So might as well not add any confusion. no?


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Dustin D said:


> There's lots here I'm unsure of here. Being as there is a standard
> but that clubs sort of have to enforce or not enforce those things in which they think is proper etc.,
> does this all look like normal businesses to you?
> 
> ...



My responses are in red. 

Bottom line...seems VERY normal to me.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I thought the test was really good. Would love to run it w/ my Mickey. I would always take the judges suggestions b/c they have seen so many dogs run. Train for distractions b/c you never know what will pop up. The fake gun thing I have seen in WC and I am sure they were not worried that you did not hold it correctly. Curious about clothing. Do you not have to wear white or cameo? And selecting the memory bird first is that okay to go in the order. Obviously it is b/c he did it and then ran the blind. Save for handler err I thought it was a good run. Dog reminded me of a young hyper dog!!!! Thanks for posting.IMO


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

TN_LAB said:


> My responses are in red.
> 
> Bottom line...seems VERY normal to me.


Thanks for your reply.

My dog got really distracted at the last day of the last Hunt Test we ran.

.....he could not pass up the chance to smell other dogs feces.... sigh.....

Hard to train for that when training alone..... The retrieves of the Test wasn't hard for him at all,
it was the distraction of other dogs poop that he couldn't overcome.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I thought the test was really good. Would love to run it w/ my Mickey. I would always take the judges suggestions b/c they have seen so many dogs run. Train for distractions b/c you never know what will pop up. *The fake gun thing I have seen in WC and I am sure they were not worried that you did not hold it correctly.* Curious about clothing. Do you not have to wear white or cameo? And selecting the memory bird first is that okay to go in the order. Obviously it is b/c he did it and then ran the blind. Save for handler err I thought it was a good run. Dog reminded me of a young hyper dog!!!! Thanks for posting.IMO



Quote from rule book:
Shouldering the Gun In Senior and Master Tests,
handlers shall always carry and *shoulder* an empty shotgun
except when honoring the working dog or when running
a blind. The gun shall not be used as a pointing device to
direct the dog’s attention to the bird.

Gooser

ANNND!


Section 15. Attire. In keeping with the aim of
simulated hunting conditions and situations, handlers,
Judges, workers and other test participants shall be
attired in dark or customary hunting attire that adequately
reflect a waterfowling or upland hunting environment.

P.S. I have been warned about not correctly shouldering the gun,in Senior. Its amazing to me that I have developed a bad habit of not doing this,especially considering the fact, I have run HRC in the past. Its amazing, that all of a sudden, the gun has become a factor, I really have to think about when I go to the line.!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I also ran a Senior test where I was carrying the required gun to the line, and shouldering it when the marks were shot. I had to handle on one of the marks, and tried to hand the gun to the Judge. The Judge made me hold the gun while I handled.. There was no gun stand at the line, to give you a place to set it down..

Made me question the difference between running a blind, and handling on a mark,,considering what the rules say about the gun not being carried when running a blind.. I do understand,, that SOME will hold their gun when hunting,and running a blind or handling their dogs,, but ,, considering gun safety,,Many do not.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The Judge has the final say! 

I did what I was told,, which is rare for me!

I did whine a bit though!,, I was quietly told to shut up!


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> P.S. I have been warned about not correctly shouldering the gun,in Senior.



I wonder if anybody has actually been dropped for not shouldering the gun "correctly"?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I also ran a Senior test where I was carrying the required gun to the line, and shouldering it when the marks were shot. I had to handle on one of the marks, and tried to hand the gun to the Judge. The Judge made me hold the gun while I handled.. There was no gun stand at the line, to give you a place to set it down..
> 
> Made me question the difference between running a blind, and handling on a mark,,considering what the rules say about the gun not being carried when running a blind.. _ I do understand,, that SOME will hold their gun when hunting,and running a blind or handling their dogs,, but ,, considering gun safety,,Many do not_.


I'm in the _empty my gun and set it down while I'm handling _category. In hunt test I've had it both ways, sometimes I have to handle with fake-gun in hand, other times I get to hand it to the judge. I've only run AKC and NAHRA, never did I have to use a real gun. I can see how using a real gun might add a degree of realism to a test, but I don't get what it adds to the test as far as dog performance goes. This is just one of those philosophical differences, I believe that the skills a dog and handler develop on their way to passing Senior and Master test carry over into real hunting, the actual shooting and gun safety are best learned elsewhere. I prefer to concentrate on good dog work, I don't feel the need to introduce good gun handling into the equation, but if handed a real or fake gun, safe handling should be enforced.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

TN_LAB said:


> I wonder if anybody has actually been dropped for not shouldering the gun "correctly"?


I have seen warnings but nobody ever dropped. When I am holding the fake gun, I *usually* remember to put it in the general vicinity of my shoulder when the bird is in the air--or thereabouts. I still keep watching my dog, though.



John Robinson said:


> This is just one of the philosophical differences, I believe that the skills a dog and handler develop on their way to passing Senior and Master test carry over into real hunting, the actual shooting and gun safety are best learned elsewhere.


I agree 100%.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Look at the photos taken at the MN by the official photographer. Anything goes short of shooting from the hip. I would guess 10% actually carry gun properly and shoulder while bird is in air.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

flich's first senior hunt test!
talk about the unexpected!

http://youtu.be/LFO68oLuoL8


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## alynn (Apr 5, 2008)

In my world the gun is just a piece of AKC silliness. I am not a hunter (no problem with it, but did not grow up in a hunting family & too busy to add another hobby to my list). I do work very hard to shoulder the gun and exhibit gun safety (including breaking the gun before handing it to the judge) when I run my dogs. But as a handler we all walk to the line with our eyes on our dog. Who would do that with a loaded gun? The gun does not enhance or detract from the dog's performance in my experience. It is just a prop we have to carry. 

I know non-AKC venues are different, but in AKC the gun could be an umbrella for all it does.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> flich's first senior hunt test!
> talk about the unexpected!
> 
> http://youtu.be/LFO68oLuoL8


Ok, I have to know what happened here.....the judge forgot to release the honor dog? And the bird was taken from your dog by the honor dog, whose owner took delivery and handed to the judge? Yes, I would say that would be unexpected....So what was the result?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

If the gun is just a prop in AkC that is the judges & venues fault. If there were no calls from the field and high degree swings btw marks one could appreciate the use of a gun to move dogs. Heck if a venue gives me a stick to point out gun stations that are supposed to be hidden, I appreciate that as well . If judges carelessly juggle around sticks and don't fail handlers for not using them properly that is the judges fault. I've been warned once for not shoulder a stick correctly I've seen handlers dropped for it. The use of a stick is what really makes it a prop-toy and allows handlers to not take it's handling seriously. HRC you will be dropped for improper gun handling and judges will fall to t ground when a handler carelessly throws around a gun, becuz primers or not it is a real gun. Sticks are sticks no matter how you paint them. A real gun shooting has an effect on dog, probably most noteworthy on control and line manners. A gun just like a live flyer is added excitement. Aside form that these dogs are being evaluated as breeding working stock for hunters, I've never hunted without a gun or live flyers, not sure how a hunting dog can be evaluated without them. What's the value of buying a hunting dog out of hunt tested-titled dogs if they are not test with such basic items. Might be why whenever I judge, marshal, etc. for the upper stakes there's a real if disabled gun at the stake and whenever we run a HRC test we have live flyers. Leave the toys in the toy box.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> Ok, I have to know what happened here.....the judge forgot to release the honor dog? And the bird was taken from your dog by the honor dog, whose owner took delivery and handed to the judge? Yes, I would say that would be unexpected....So what was the result?


Yes,,exactly! Forgot to excuse honor dog! I knew it at the time, and was thinking about blowing a sit whistle, as my dig was returing, then saying something, but I froze. Honor dog snatched Flinch's flyer from her mouth.  Judges admitted they forgot, both dogs were fine.

i was crackin Walnuts cause i didnt think she got a good look at the walk up memory bird, and worried she would forget after what happened. All was well though, she hunted a bit, but all was well!.... Stuff happens!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mine was the honor dog! Mikes dog headed straight for us on the return. (We were both wearing black and not that far apart). I must say my Chief held it together better than I did. When I saw that the judges had forgotten us I should have taken him off line. As it was, Flinch came straight at him and he didn't even have to break to grab the duck. It has created some problems for us now whenever a dog is approaching with a bird. Chief thinks they are bringing it to him and that suits his sort of lazy self just fine. I shouldn't have let it happen, but I froze too!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Yea, Flinch lost me, and came back to you. I should have handled, and stopped her when I realised they had not excused the honor dog, but then you statr questioning if they excused at a different time! It happened very fast!


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Wow! That was crazy! I thought that was what I saw, but had to watch it a second time to figure it out!

I understand the freezing as both of the handlers saw it happening and could do nothing!
It is also understandable that the working dog got confused as to where her handler was. 

I think ya'll are very lucky that the dogs seem to not have a possessive bone in their bodies.

Weird stuff does happen at tests and I've seen a lot in 19 years of doing them, but never this! Thanks for sharing!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Lady, just to make it more fun, you judged this honor dog in his very first test, a Junior in CO! Yes, he passed


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

Not only is that a crazy situation.....I've never seen Labs retrieve ducks in the desert! lol

Sorry I'm from LA......


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy-DmnaX4J8

Sorry I don't have a picture of my dog retrieving any of them

Pete


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Just to critique myself.

i hadnt trained very well for walk ups.
Dog didnt have a Que. to look out, or "watch, as i walked! 
She never really got a good look at it! My fault!
She didnt "sit" either

i didnt "shoulder the gun on the walk up.
I didnt (and still dont) pay attention to where the flyer actually fell. Very important to lear yhis, and payvrrygood attention to where the flyer falls! 

I set to fast After bird was down.

Sent to fast, and cast to quick on the blind!

Stuff that maybe the OP should look at before running a Senior test.

anyone else?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I am curious how you all take the bird from your dog when he is out hunting. Say you got 2 birds out there for your dog to fetch. After the dog returns with the first bird, do you make him climb into the boat with the bird, and then come to heel for you to take the bird? Do you then have it jump out of the boat again to get the 2nd bird, have it climb back in holding the 2nd bird, have it come to heel, and then take the bird?

Or how about if you are hunting out a blind that your dog has to climb in and out of to retrieve the fallen game?

I don't have much hunting experience, but what I just described seems a rather silly way of doing things to me. I think I would take the bird from my dog before having it climb in the boat or the blind, and I don't think I would have her climb back in the boat or the blind until she had completed the second retrieve.

I ask this because I don't have a huge problem with the way the handler received the birds from his dog in the test. I don't think the rules require the dog come to heel.

I learned that having the dog return to heel to receive the bird helped the dog to focus on the next retrieve, I thought it was a handling strategy, not a requirement, for tests and trials.

Thoughts?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mitty said:


> I am curious how you all take the bird from your dog when he is out hunting. Say you got 2 birds out there for your dog to fetch. After the dog returns with the first bird, do you make him climb into the boat with the bird, and then come to heel for you to take the bird? Do you then have it jump out of the boat again to get the 2nd bird, have it climb back in holding the 2nd bird, have it come to heel, and then take the bird?
> 
> Or how about if you are hunting out a blind that your dog has to climb in and out of to retrieve the fallen game?
> 
> ...


I do it all different ways when I hunt, rarely do I make my dog heel (I'm usually sitting down). I just reach for the bird as soon as the dog is close enough. I hunt out of a boat a lot, I usually haul my dog in by the scruff of his neck and him helping with his legs, bird in mouth, then take the bird. On multiple marks I haul him up on the boat and send from there, not that I would be against sending him from the side. Like you I really didn't have an issue with the front side retrieve in the OP video. You can tell he's nervous about a lot of stuff and probably didn't want to take a chance on the dog dropping the bird, that's ok, not very elegant, but ok. People have beat his run to death, but overall I can see that dog passing that day.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

MooseGooser said:


> Just to critique myself.
> 
> i hadnt trained very well for walk ups.
> Dog didnt have a Que. to look out, or "watch, as i walked!
> ...


Try this drill for walkups..it worked wonders on my last 3 labs (especially since I jump shoot spring fed creeks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1cPpWXeFnc


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