# Where are the best current litters?



## Tarball (Aug 12, 2010)

Perhaps this will be a bit tough to discuss, but here goes.
I am in the market for a new field trial dog. I prefer a pup.
Where are the best current dogs. Bitches and studs.

I can get a "Buster" pup but am unsure of the bitch.

I have had both Lean Mac and Marathon Man dogs.......could not be
happier with them. But, am unsure of which kennels to check.
There is a LOT of junk out there.

My budget is $1000-$2000...........any suggestions?

I will be at the Duluth Trial this weekend if you wish to suggest
folks that might be there.


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## allydeer (May 11, 2008)

give mary howley a call .


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## Tarball (Aug 12, 2010)

Thank you. What I am looking for is more specific.

Who is great marker.

Who likes water.

I such and such a litter over the top on line breeding.

This dog is good but her flaws are etc.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

It is almost impossible to cover all the variables. Since you are interested in a Buster pup, your best bet is to talk with Pete Hayes directly and see what breedings he (Buster, not Pete ;-)) has been getting. 

Once you find out pedigrees, you might be able to get more specific answers to your questions. Also, Pete will have seen most of the girls up close and personal so could provide you with some valuable input.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> It is almost impossible to cover all the variables.


Tell me about it....I'm also on the search, too.

Brain Cramp Regards....


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

IMHO I would look at a couple of different lists

1. sires with multiple progeny in the last 2-3 National Am & Open...for example at this years NARC there were 14 Fargo II dogs entered, 5 from Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow

2. look at the derby lists from the last 2-5 yrs, those dogs will be today's and tomorrows national contenders

3. between those two lists see which names and or bloodlines seem to reappear....(read Webshire's Honest Abe)

4. now the hard part...find a bitch to breed to that bloodline


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Tarball said:


> Perhaps this will be a bit tough to discuss, but here goes.
> I am in the market for a new field trial dog. I prefer a pup.
> Where are the best current dogs. Bitches and studs.
> 
> ...


Field of dreams Kennels
Brad Lafave

Sire: "Champ"



*RK*


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## Tarball (Aug 12, 2010)

You know what?

Perhaps that is really the question...........the quality of the bitch.

When I was dating my mother.......now 90 years young

would say........"son, look at the mother. Then you will know what
you are getting."


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## mohaled (Oct 7, 2007)

Hint..Hint


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Tarball said:


> Perhaps that is really the question...........the quality of the bitch.


for most people it's all about the sire

but pick a talented bitch from a line that consistently produces winners and the sire doesn't really matter


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

Tarball said:


> You know what?
> 
> Perhaps that is really the question...........the quality of the bitch.
> 
> ...



you dated your mother?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Tarball said:


> You know what?
> 
> Perhaps that is really the question..........*.the quality of the bitch.*
> 
> ...



Fixed your punctuation a bit..

97 year old mom regards


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## prairiewind (Feb 17, 2009)

There are alot of great litters on this site.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Look at the BITCH!!


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## Tarball (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks for the punctuation fix..........pretty embarassing!


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

David Lo Buono said:


> you dated your mother?


I had similar thoughts.. Dualing banjos regards.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

I think that Pete will be doing a breeding with the bitch of this nice derby dog. I had the chance to train this boy and just sold him to one of Danny Farmer's clients.

https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewDogHistory.aspx?mdi=154948

The bitch is QAA and out of Hayseed's Hilltop.
The breeder's name is Lee Amundson, from Ames, IA.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Anyone else ponder inbreeding V outcrossing, pros and cons regarding working traits? 

Are the days of supersires in the US past? 

What questions would you suggest to ask dam and sire owners? CCL disease? When they acquired the bitch?


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

I would go for a linebreeding on an exceptional dog myself.. Total outcross is too much of a gamble for a field trial prospect IMO.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

BirdNMouth said:


> I would go for a linebreeding on an exceptional dog myself.. Total outcross is too much of a gamble for a field trial prospect IMO.


Smiling, smiling, smiling, thankyou. I wonder? 

Last litter, currently 11 weeks of age. Total outcross. Yank (my US import) daughter, and my older stud. Very interested to see how they mature in their new all very very experienced homes.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Located in Rochester, MN.
Born on the 4th of July. 3 titled dogs in FC Regi’s litter. 4 titled dogs in Greti’s (all-age pts) litter.

This is as CLOSE and as Good as you are gonna get !

They were also raised right......I know that for sure !


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Mark Sehon said:


> Look at the BITCH!!


Couldn't agree more. It's all about the bitch regards.


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

Aussie said:


> Smiling, smiling, smiling, thankyou. I wonder?
> 
> Last litter, currently 11 weeks of age. Total outcross. Yank (my US import) daughter, and my older stud. Very interested to see how they mature in their new all very very experienced homes.


You'll certainly find out wont you :-> I hope you get lucky and certainly a fun experiment from a breeders point of view. From a buyers more risky.
As a breeder I have done close to a complete outcross with my Goldens and got several completely different types of dogs. It was like two different litters. My Pro did a complete outcross breeding with the Labs and got what seemed like three different litters out of one bitch. More variety and less consistancy for sure.


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

Aussie,
I will say this though. In my Golden litter majority had there hips and elbows OFA and got two excellents and the rest were goods and all normal elbows, hearts and eyes.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Hint..Hint
__________________
Coming in Oct.... GRADY x RITZ's***


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Located in Rochester, MN.
> Born on the 4th of July. 3 titled dogs in FC Regi’s litter. 4 titled dogs in Greti’s (all-age pts) litter.
> 
> This is as CLOSE and as Good as you are gonna get !
> ...


I agree on this litter looks very nice..


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Couldn't agree more. It's all about the bitch regards.


I know of a nice female that might get bred one of these days.

Sorry, didn't want to call her a bitch... ;-)


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

LOL. Well I would love to have a pup out of her or her sister a lil down the road.


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## Pigger (Jun 12, 2010)

I'm picking up my 8wk old CLF from Born2retrieve in northcentral PA next Saturday the 28th. From what I've heard from others that have bought from Greg and Christine the dogs are fantastic. The dog's pedigrees seem very strong and they are really great people to work with. Greg also does training if someone is interested in that route. I think there is one CLF left from the litter but they also have a BLF that is due to have her litter soon. Might be worth you checking into them?


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## ducknwork (Jun 12, 2009)

Tarball said:


> Where are the best current litters?


Craigslist.


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

Nothing in the RTF classifieds is appealing? When I am looking at litters I look here and on EE first unless I happen to know someone first hand that's breeding and exceptional dog.


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## pixel shooter (Mar 6, 2010)

Exactly!! Now how does one get to know in advance of future breedings so you can get on a list  , myself Im looking for this spring just not immediately.


John Daniels said:


> I think there is probably alot of good litters that never get advertised because the pups are gone before they hit the ground.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Local Wal Mart parking lot usually provides a great variety and if your a little short on cash Dollar General as a last resort.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

John Daniels said:


> I think there is probably alot of good litters that never get advertised because the pups are gone before they hit the ground.


usually because those breeders want to "place" as many of the litter in homes where they will be campaigned or at least given the opportunity to do so



pixel shooter said:


> Exactly!! Now how does one get to know in advance of future breedings so you can get on a list  , myself Im looking for this spring just not immediately.


make friends with a reputable pro, they always seem to know which owner is going to pull which dog off their truck to get them bred


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

All I know is it is difficult to find the right litter....even knowing people who know people who have a friend....it's just a PITA! Especailly for the top of the line FT breedings....


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

ducknwork said:


> Craigslist.


That there is funny I don't care who you are!


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Local Wal Mart parking lot usually provides a great variety and if your a little short on cash Dollar General as a last resort.


Flea market parking lot. 

You know they are gonna be great if the breeder doesn't even spring the cash to rent a spot at the flea market (probably doesn't want to be bombarded with all the kids poking and pulling on the pups )


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## pixel shooter (Mar 6, 2010)

Thanks, I appreciate the input. My challenge is we dont have a high market of active FT/HT dogs up here in the great white north where I live, hence why I am looking south of the border, so a little more challenge for myself in that respect. I do believe allot of excellent breeding is sold without advertising or maybe Im wrong? I do believe the bitch has a ton of the outcome of the pups, not just the Sire alone.


John Daniels said:


> Well, It's not that hard to find breedings out of any of the more popular stud dogs. I think its harder to find a breeding out of a stud you like, and a bitch you would want a pup out of. I would keep an eye on some of the bitch you like. Let the owner know that next time they breed the bitch, depending on the stud they use that you will be interested in a pup and to keep you in mind. I see breedings with successful and proven studs all the time but I dont know anything about the bitch. Just because she is a MH, HRCH, or even QAA doesnt tell you much. I would want to go with a bitch who you have been around in training or watch her trial. I think if you look at 5 different litters that were all bred from "STUD A", the bitch makes the breeding go from good to great. IMO.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Mark Sehon said:


> Look at the BITCH!!


There where a couple of Oklahoma boys, Lee Roy and Dewey Selmon they both played pro ball, their mom was a big women, their dad was a small man
Lee Roy was 6; 3'', 256 lbs


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

A difficulty is that a number of people who have and decide to breed females with all age placements are not regular breeders themselves. Some litters are never publicized and owners may even have difficulty selling all the pups. Others run into the risk always faced with FC-FC breedings -- a dam that is a little too old and a litter that is very small. 

If you check derby and qualifying placements, you are likely to find a small number of breeders whose dogs are placing on a regular basis from multiple dams. Frank and Rita Jones in Florida seem to show up on all the right lists, for example, as does Mike Beadle in SD, who is active on RTF. Vikki Diehl at Twin Pines, who also posts on RTF, is another whose pups have been successful. (There are many others)

EntryExpress doesn't let you search by breeder. However, if you look at dogs sired by the top sires, and then use the results to pick out the dams that are producing the greatest numbers of QAA and titled dogs, I suspect you will begin to see some patterns emerge. In looking at trial results, I focus mostly on derby and Qualifying dogs since those are the dams that are most likely to still be breeding.


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## mikebeadle (Dec 26, 2003)

Thank you Jeff.

I've got a breeding with Lotto and Riggs due to whelp next week. I know what Riggs has produced to this point and we really like what we see. There are some folks on this website who own some of them. They keep plugging away with there puppies, not because they are billionaires (maybe they are), rather, they know what a great trial dog is.

I own Riggs' younger full sibling sister...last 4 trials - 2 qualifying 2nd's and 2 RJ's took home a ribbon in 60%+ of the 28 trials she's entered, another Riggs littermate won an AM 2 weeks ago and Star the dam has produced 7/8 QAA dogs, several with all age wins that are currently and competitively running trials. I'm sure by this fall Star will have at least two more puppies that are qualified all age.

Lotto the dam.....well, I own some nice dogs....and she is no doubt one of them. I'd say my best dog to date is Maggie (Riggs sister...awfully partial to her...my puppy from my breeding and doing really well in trials), however, when it comes to waterfowl hunting, I take Lotto! I should have pushed more for her to run trials. We did the hunt test game with her, she titled and qualified for the master national and then I decided that was enough money spent on one dog. We kind of reached the pinnacle of a hunt test dogs career and felt there was no reason to have her continue getting more master passes. At that point I should have went to the qualifiyings and then all age. 

Mike


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

pixel shooter said:


> My challenge is we dont have a high market of active FT/HT dogs up here in the great white north where I live, hence why I am looking south of the border, so a little more challenge for myself in that respect.


Have you checked with Gloria and Dan Devos
www.baypointkennel.com

Marie-Josee Moranville and Jamie Balesdent were located in Canada.. Find retrievers.com shows them in Alabama now

The top pros know about the best litters usually well in advance of others.

The National Retriever Club of Canada link may be another good resource for you:
http://www.nrcc-canada.com/other-lnks.html


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## Laird's Retrievers (Apr 20, 2007)

First- I must state I have a litter expected in Oct, but I wanted to give my opinion on this topic as I spend lots of time reading/studying pedigrees (my wife states way TOO much time). In my real life a spend time as a population geneticist study snake genes and oother things of that nature.

Finding the right puppy is very difficult in my opinion and a buddy states "it takes him 3-5 puppies to get a really excellent dog that will play in the field trial game". So how do you increase your odds of getting an excellent puppy? I have been very lucky (if you want to call it that) I have bought two bitches in the last 6 years, both have earned open wins, one finished the Canadian National and the other has earned 17 all-age points and just turned 4 in June.


I truly believe you need to look at the bitch line first, and then look to see how many dogs in the pedigree have titled siblings/littermates. For example, if a litter has 5 title dogs and some of those dogs have produced titled or all-age pointed offspring then I believe that increases ones odds. If you study the pedigree and see that all dogs in the first 3 generations have multiple titled dogs in each litter, to me that sets the stage for good progeny.

See if the litter is line bred on certain dogs that are really true performers and producers, many times this is a very good idea and again adds to increasing your chances of purchasing a puppy that should make the game you want to play.

However, maybe the sire and dam don't "nick" well, this is something we can not predict, however there are some sires out there that have been bred to several different lines and the puppies seem to do well. But realize, when I first got into this sport a man told me the puppy price is the smallest amount of money you will spend on this dog in its lifetime. As a graduate student who just spent a month's salary on a puppy I did not understand. Now having had two dogs on a Pro truck--ouch I now understand.


In the end it takes a lot of work to find the right litter, spend time on Gooddoginfo and looking at results in the retriever journal or on entryexpress. Call and talk to the pro's who run certain dogs or better yet call the owners of dogs you consistently see place and see if they are doing breedings. From personal experience I had a guy call me two years ago about a puppy out of Ellie- I called him last week and he is very exicted about the puppy. I have never met this man, he just followed the stats.

I did my breeding because I am keeping a puppy, that was the number one reason. So, good luck finding your puppy, put the time in and then hardwork training and the results should payoff.

Cheers

Chris


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Well there is a quality litter on the ground now and reasonably priced (FC/AFC x FC)....anyone interested, let me know and I'll send you a PM. The timing on the breeding does not work for me, pups are 9 weeks old....


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

Ed suggested that the bitch line warranted attention and most posts agreed. From the perspective of the breeder the handler counts for much of the success in the game of field trials.

Often all the good breedings seem to be spoken for before they are advertised. Why is that? Well the other field trialers are seeing dam compete. They like what they see.

What does the breeder see. Hopefully the sire competing, certaining the pedigree and a good history of the sire from unbiased sources which includes the health records which is a given.

Now the breeder who is active in the trial game or hunttest or HRC will see one other variable often overlooked and that is you the buyer.
What do you bring to the table. What have you produced for titles on your dog. A breeder of a top breeding is delighted for you to have a pup if you have a record to match. On the other hand if you are going through dogs and not showing results well that may speak loads about you.

How do your dogs run? If they are pigs, a breeder may want to place a pup with someone else half way across the continent who has a reputation on the circuit as being a good and dedicated dog trainer.

The good breeders will certainly being making phone calls to the pros who will be forthright on their take on any particular amateur trialer.

In the end reputation is everything.


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## bmiles (Aug 20, 2004)

I know of a repeat breeding of FC AFC Creek Robber x AFC Pattons Blazin Abby. This first breeding produced Robber's Stray Bullet. Bullet was number 2 on last years derby list with 
80 something points. He was QAA at 15 months old. Owner and breeder is Dan Hurst. 
Abby will be bred when she comes in season.


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## CHMHFCR (Feb 2, 2004)

FOM, I sent you a PM.

Clint


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> IMHO I would look at a couple of different lists
> 
> 1. sires with multiple progeny in the last 2-3 National Am & Open...for example at this years NARC there were 14 Fargo II dogs entered, 5 from Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow
> 
> ...


I think Bon has offered some good advice. Study the pedigrees of successful competitors (male and female). See if you can determine which bloodlines seem to "nick". 

Pay equal attention to the bitch. Don't give all the credit to the stud dog. 

Helen


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Ironwood said:


> The good breeders will certainly being making phone calls to the pros who will be forthright on their take on any particular amateur trialer.
> 
> In the end reputation is everything.



Sometimes I wonder if too much is made of this. I'm a nobody, yet I've managed to get my hands on a couple of fairly decently bred dogs.

I always enjoy these threads, but it seems like this one has rendered little concrete information on current litters compared to some threads I've seen in the past.


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## rradler (Jul 19, 2010)

check out tidewater kennels. FC X AFC


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

rradler said:


> check out tidewater kennels. FC X AFC


Grady x Skeeter should be amazing. The 2008 High Point Open of out of the 2008 High Point Amateur Female.


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## Tarball (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks for the advice board.

I have selected a puppy out of Central Minnesota
Breeder Dave Chabot

Sire: FC Small Craft Advisory "Rough"
Gary Unger.......I watched him win the Duluth Open last weekend

Bitch: Sophie 
Sire: Cosmos Concerto
Dam: Great Northerns Lizzie...untitled but sibling to 5 FC/AFC

I "interviewed" Rough with two of his siblings and was impressed with his
very friendly,biddable nature. His two siblings were damn near identical.

Sophie seems like the perfect bitch. Solid,biddable,a good marker.
Bill Fabian had background work with Sophie and I have watched him
work from a distance. If there are two better dog guys than Fabian
or Dave Rorem I have not met them. I say Rorem because his demeanor
reminds me of Fabian.

So, right or not I will be picking the puppy up soon. I will be doing young dog
work near my winter home in Williston, Fla.

Ring me up if you are in the area and have a young dog you want to train
with. I have about 15 acres there.

Tarball


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## Brent McDowell (Jul 2, 2008)

You'll love your Rough pup - I know I do! There are a few threads on here with feedback on his pups. 

You've made your decision. Don't look back. Give the dog all he/she deserves and it will all work out for the best.

Best of luck!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Bob Hayden still has two females from his breeding of 

FC/AFC They Call Me Bocephus
to
FC Wren Dell

Ted


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