# Is there a best ever???



## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

I almost didn't post this because I didn't want to start a fight but...oh well.

Is there a best dog ever????

A Michael Jordan of the dog world...one that has more titles and stands out the most? I've heard of a lot of amazing dogs and a buddy of mine just bought a dog who's grandsire was Pachanga who he says was a really great dog. And I've heard a lot about Grady and Trav too. I just have very little knowledge of the retriever world and was curious.

Please don't make this a fight. That's not the intention of the question.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

When I reach my end and you are still around, I will tell you then and for what it is worth it will be many.
My penny worth...well maybe a big penny. 

Edit to post: They are all best dogs....


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## Sophie Gundog (Apr 28, 2010)

For me It Sophie, just saying ......


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

No no no no


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

River Oaks Corky.


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## zeus3925 (Mar 27, 2008)

River Oaks Corky acquired more all age points than any other--if you are looking at just field trial results. But there are other things that make a dog great. At some point in our lives we may get to own a dog that may not have Corky's ribbon count, but, he will be special to us for a number of reasons. For me it was my first lab, Zeus.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Hard to measure, for sure. And, can you compare eras? That is a tough one, but I can see both sides of that argument. 

Also, folks have different criteria. I was speaking with a pro recently and we started talking about 'great dogs'. His criteria for a great dog excluded many that I consider great and a great many that had I owned them, I would have been in FT Heaven.

I think at the end of the day you could come up with some in the running but would have a hard time getting a consensus.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

ABD391 - The one thing I learned many decades ago is that when it comes to guys you never question the worth of their car, dog or woman. It is all in the eyes of the beholder for all manner of reasons. For instance would you want to own a 3X NFC bitch who periodically would eat an entire bird in the field while refusing to come in. Like Zeus , my first competitive field trial dog(+++) . Chip remains mine and since his death I have been chasing the rainbow for another one. I have always enjoyed derby dogs because before we mess them up with our notions of quality they demonstrate their most natural abilities to "mark!" When you look at an All-Age dog the ability to work with the handler is also poetry in motion. The challenge of points, wins , etc.is interesting and valid but before you would get carried away with that do not put the burden of "greatness" on a dog but put it on yourself. Test yourself first.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Field trials by design are based on the search to find the best dog, head to head in the field, on _that_ given day...

Without FUBARing this defination , over the years there were more than few were "Better" than (******) or (**** **) on a given day

Where do you go to find the better dog, when the high point Open dog *looses* to another dog at the National Open. Or worse yet when a former HPOD fails to even qualify;-)

john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

ADB391 said:


> Is there a best dog ever????


No. Just no.

Evan


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

My bride will say the BDE was her beloved Eddie whom we lost last year. Sired over 100 working service/guide dogs, made his SH and made us both smile every day. My favorite is the one curled up on my feet right now, itching to go out and train in the cool morning air. My next favorite will be the pup who is yet a bit rambunctious to be left out of the ex pen. And of course here are several urns of ashes of former BDE's in a special place.


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

Yes. She is buried in my back yard.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

In my opinion it is my dog Sunny. She was my very first lab ever, first dog I had ever trained to do any kind of competitions. The dog that has accomplished more than I ever thought possible and we are not done yet. If she started talking to me right now I wouldn’t be surprised, that is my dog Sunny.


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

I guess I worded my question incorrectly...It should have been who is the most titled dog or dog with the most titles or etc...I was trying to relate the Michael Jordan sports analogy to the world of retrievers and I seem to have fell short.

Trust me I just buried my first dog a few weeks ago and he'll always be my favorite so I understand the responses.

Thanks for the replies.

Tony


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

ADB391 said:


> I guess I worded my question incorrectly...It should have been who is the most titled dog or dog with the most titles or etc...I was trying to relate the Michael Jordan sports analogy to the world of retrievers and I seem to have fell short.
> 
> Trust me I just buried my first dog a few weeks ago and he'll always be my favorite so I understand the responses.
> 
> ...


Your basketball analogy makes your question confusing. You are saying that Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever, yet are asking about dogs with titles. Michael Jackson was a great player but not the most winningest player in pro basket ball history. Of course, my source is Wikipedia so....hmmm.

I think the greatest dogs were those dual Ch. from back in the day.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Well, you might ask who is the "Man 'o War", (most exciting), who is the "Secretariat" (best stats) or maybe who is the "Seabiscuit"(overcame greatest odds, longevity". It is all so subjective. It might be fun to hear some ideas from the old timers, which dogs filled these places. Give it a shot guys!

Meanwhile, the greatest dog I've ever heard of is crying at the door to go out, so I gotta go!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

1tulip said:


> River Oaks Corky.


Vocal, lived when FT were small hunt tests. Lots of points, but does that mean best ever?


/Paul


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

mitty said:


> Your basketball analogy makes your question confusing. You are saying that Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever, yet are asking about dogs with titles. Michael Jackson was a great player but not the most winningest player in pro basket ball history. Of course, my source is Wikipedia so....hmmm.
> 
> I think the greatest dogs were those dual Ch. from back in the day.


LOL  I think that most folks get the analogy with MJ. Jordan is pretty much the consensus choice in the greatest player of all time, although some argue Bill Russell, perhaps. Certainly, nobody would argue that Jim Lostcutoff is better than Jordan.


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

DoubleHaul said:


> LOL  I think that most folks get the analogy with MJ. Jordan is pretty much the consensus choice in the greatest player of all time, although some argue Bill Russell, perhaps. Certainly, nobody would argue that Jim Lostcutoff is better than Jordan.


Hahahaha! I had to google Jim Lostcuff but thanks for the laugh!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

DoubleHaul said:


> LOL  I think that most folks get the analogy with MJ. Jordan is pretty much the consensus choice in the greatest player of all time, although some argue Bill Russell, perhaps. Certainly, nobody would argue that Jim Lostcutoff is better than Jordan.


The OP was restating his question because he said no one understood it, so I assumed he thought that people did not understand his analogy. My bad.

Bill Russell has won 11 NBA championships, Michael Jordan has won 6 (according to wikipedia :razz. So is the best dog the one with the most championships, or the one that everyone thinks is the best because they are awesome in so many other ways?


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## Madluke (Dec 3, 2010)

Kinda like " what's the definition of success" It really is different for everyone with many appropriate definitions. I also suppose that the definition will change for many over their lifetime.


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

mitty said:


> The OP was restating his question because he said no one understood it, so I assumed he thought that people did not understand his analogy. My bad.
> 
> Bill Russell has won 11 NBA championships, Michael Jordan has won 6 (according to wikipedia :razz. So is the best dog the one with the most championships, or the one that everyone thinks is the best because they are awesome in so many other ways?


I think that's what he was referring to by saying Jim Lostcuff...he's got 7 titles but I doubt anyone would say he was better than Jordan. Although Bill Russell was great (and waaaaaay before my time) the general consensus for basketball is that Jordan was the best. But for arguments sake...let's just forget the terrible use of a basketball analogy. 

Now, is there a Pete Rose of the retriever world??? JK!!! 

Thanks for all the responses. It's been fun to see all the opinions and it was neat to read up on River Oaks Corky. I'd never heard of him.

Tony


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

ADB391 said:


> Now, is there a Pete Rose of the retriever world??? JK!!!
> 
> Tony


No. Dogs don't bet.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I think in the world of FT dogs it was McGuffy. He really beat some long odds to win a national.

In the HT world I believe it's my dog Belle.-Paul


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## Gonzo (Sep 21, 2013)

Hey everyone I'm still very new to it all, but so far nobody has mentioned any SRS dogs. To me it seems like those dogs have to be able to do it all, they have to be able to do FT,HRC and HT.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

ADB391 said:


> let's just forget the terrible use of a basketball analogy.


Most folks got what you meant by it but some folks on RTF just have to find a nit to pick...

Unlike hoops, though, I don't think there can be anything close to a consensus answer. What are the criteria? High Point Open Dog? If so, I might say Creek Robber. But then folks would say that HPOD just has to beat consistently the dogs on its circuit.

NFC? If so, that would be Lottie, wouldn't it? But is that a better measure than winning all year? 

National win or wins combined with a high point award? What about the Amateur side? Shouldn't the best dog run do well for the owner as well as the pro?

Makes my head hurt.


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## ada5771 (Oct 31, 2012)

Gonzo said:


> Hey everyone I'm still very new to it all, but so far nobody has mentioned any SRS dogs. To me it seems like those dogs have to be able to do it all, they have to be able to do FT,HRC and HT.


Here we go let me pop the popcorn....


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

ADB391 said:


> I think that's what he was referring to by saying Jim Lostcuff...he's got 7 titles but I doubt anyone would say he was better than Jordan. Although Bill Russell was great (and waaaaaay before my time) the general consensus for basketball is that Jordan was the best. But for arguments sake...let's just forget the terrible use of a basketball analogy.
> 
> Now, is there a Pete Rose of the retriever world??? JK!!!
> 
> ...


I think the Michael Jordan analogy is good, but when you emphasized the part about counting titles I thought perhaps you were looking for something else so then I got confused about what answers you were looking for. Sorry, I thought I was being helpful by pointing the title problem out.


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

mitty said:


> I think the Michael Jordan analogy is good, but when you emphasized the part about counting titles I thought perhaps you were looking for something else so then I got confused about what answers you were looking for. Sorry, I thought I was being helpful by pointing the title problem out.


No need to apologize at all I think what I originally asked was confusing. I was just curious really about "The Greats" in FT or HT or if there was one that stood out more than others. The "legends" of the sport. Confusing question I know.

Thanks again,


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

To me the measure of greatness is does the dog do what it was bred to do? Lottie being the dominant derby dog for a long time holding the record and winning the national..... You don't be high point derby dog without beating your contemporaries on a consistent basis. I would think HPOD would be tough for a female, you are giving up four or more weekends a year, but to win the national three times. The derby record shows consistent performance, the national wins show that more then once she was the best of the best for a week.

Another measure of greatness, do the progeny do what they were bred to do. Lean Mac has a lot of FCs to his credit, but for her limited chance to pass on genes, there is Lottie somewhere behind a lot of great dogs today.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Btw, there are lots of other greats by that measure, Raiderin the HT world.... But I assume the OP was rendering to FT dogs.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

The best dog ever may never be known. It could be curled up in front of someones fireplace right now as a pet. May have gotten lost at some point and ended up in a shelter unfortunately. Or it could be your neighbors hunting dog that gets to retrieve a few ducks a year and doesnt run any hunt tests or field trials. Two other big factors are money and time. A lot of dogs may never see their full potential if there owners do not have the money to use a pro or the time to train as much as necessary or run countless HTs or FTs. Some dogs get there slowly because of an unlimited pocket book and countless experience at a particular venue. 

In my mind I have three of the greatest dogs...They play, stare at me and beg to go out and work. This makes me turn off the TV even when its cold outside and take them training or hunting. They enjoy it so much it greatly enhances my experience and makes it so that I want to do it more frequently because even with the frustrations it is still one of the most rewarding things you can do with GREAT dogs.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

ADB391 said:


> No need to apologize at all I think what I originally asked was confusing. I was just curious really about "The Greats" in* FT* or HT or if there was one that stood out more than others. The "legends" of the sport. Confusing question I know.
> 
> Thanks again,


Did we forget the pointer breed as well....that my friend is another venue for the all greats as you said...So back to your question...Is there criteria to what might be consider great or is that a matter of opinion to those who know the breed and live it and express it and hope the audience accepts it on their merit on what the dog did on the circuit.  The greatest in my opinion is at best describe as the campaign they were running and who was there to share at large viva the media.

And then their is the local guy who believes his dog is the greatest...and I believe him.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Micah Duffy said:


> The best dog ever may never be known. It could be curled up in front of someones fireplace right now as a pet. May have gotten lost at some point and ended up in a shelter unfortunately. Or it could be your neighbors hunting dog that gets to retrieve a few ducks a year and doesnt run any hunt tests or field trials. Two other big factors are money and time. A lot of dogs may never see their full potential if there owners do not have the money to use a pro or the time to train as much as necessary or run countless HTs or FTs. Some dogs get there slowly because of an unlimited pocket book and countless experience at a particular venue.
> 
> In my mind I have three of the greatest dogs...They play, stare at me and beg to go out and work. This makes me turn off the TV even when its cold outside and take them training or hunting. They enjoy it so much it greatly enhances my experience and makes it so that I want to do it more frequently because even with the frustrations it is still one of the most rewarding things you can do with GREAT dogs.


Good man.


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

I really have enjoyed reading all of these comments. Made the day down south go by faster...especially since we'll have another "snow day" tomorrow where everything is closed.

I wasn't just referring to FT dogs really. I've only been to one qualifying FT (this past Saturday) and never a HT. What's been most interesting is the views on was makes a dog great, and furthermore that many of you thinks so highly of your own dog. I think that shows a lot about you all as owners. I read somewhere (maybe on here) "If a man/woman loves his dog, I respect him. If the dog loves his man/woman, I like him."

I really don't know what the criteria for being a great dog is. I was kind of leaving that up to y'all since I'm green to all of this. I'll tell you what it is for me though. My wife and I just had our first child, a son, 7 months ago. I pick up my new pup in a couple of weeks. For me, if my son has great memories of me, him and our dog "Man" hunting, and better memories of them being buddies, he'll be a great dog to me.

Thanks again,

Tony


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Vocal, lived when FT were small hunt tests. Lots of points, but does that mean best ever?
> 
> 
> /Paul


You're adding an extra huge variable to the equation. He was a contemporary of Super Chief. The two of them were superstars at a time when the sport was evolving beyond the domain of the socioeconomically elite. But if this were "Fantasy Field Trials"... I'd put those two on my team any day.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

1tulip said:


> You're adding an extra huge variable to the equation. He was a contemporary of Super Chief. The two of them were superstars at a time when the sport was evolving beyond the domain of the socioeconomically elite. But if this were "Fantasy Field Trials"... I'd put those two on my team any day.


A few of these might also make the cut

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-40511.html

john


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

Tony- I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know of some great dogs that I would have liked to see work and get to know them: King Buck, Freehaven Muscles, Topbrass Cotton, Emberain Rugby and TNT Explosion "Boomer."

Will Rogers said something to the effect that if dogs don't get to go to heaven, then he wanted to go where they went. I agree with him. So, maybe if it works that way, I will have my chance.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I vote for Lassie. She got Timmy out of more trouble than any dog ever could,especially when he fell in the well. 2nd place probably goes to Rin Tin Tin


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I vote for Bullet, Roy Rogers dog with Old Yeller and King, Sgt. Preston of the Yukon's dog close behind


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

EdA said:


> I vote for Bullet, Roy Rogers dog with Old Yeller and King, Sgt. Preston of the Yukon's dog close behind


Not Snoopy?


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

EdA said:


> I vote for Bullet, Roy Rogers dog with Old Yeller and King, Sgt. Preston of the Yukon's dog close behind


C'mon man. That's like voting for Woody Harrelson and Wesley Snipes from White Men Can't Jump as the best basketball player of all time. Of all the $'s and egos in this game, only one or two will venture a straight answer.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Here are a few who"also ran" ;-)




> OK here you go. It's long, but this is from the LRC. I don't know the status of any of these dogs.
> 
> LABRADORS with PERFORMANCE and CONFORMATION TITLES or POINTS Amateur Field Champions with Conformation TitlesAFC/CH Jason of the Golden Fleece II AFC/Ch. Shamrock Acres Simmerdown AFC/CH Rinney's Cumulo Nimbus
> 
> ...


Thats some working dogs that also look pretty and vis a versa..... but how many would pass the health clearences "sniff test"
john


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

> Diving into the cold water of Crab Orchard Lake for the last test which required Shed to do was a double water blind of 50 yards. When Shed emerged from the the water he had won his third National.


 A double water blind, of 50 yards?

Sounds like an easy Master second series.


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

absolutely 
auggie 
and if you don't. no why you still don't get it


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Jeff Bartlett said:


> absolutely
> auggie
> and if you don't. no why you still don't get it


Hey Jeff I don't (no?) know why, should he be in the conversation, certainly, should he be annointed?....enlighten me


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## CindyGal (Mar 6, 2012)

Wanting titles, how about 2xNOC OTCH Count Tyler Show Me The Money UDX7 OM7 MH (QAA and derby list).


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

copterdoc said:


> A double water blind, of 50 yards?
> 
> Sounds like an easy Master second series.


Do you understand anything??


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Male; Lean Mac Based on 4 Natl titles 120+ Consecutive Natl Series completed{HOW AWESOME IS THAT!!!} and his success in the breeding shed
Female: Lottie based on an NFC Threepeat and the awesome list of pups she whelped by different studs


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I think you could make the argument that Auggie is best because he's the only dog in the modern era of more widespread training knowledge to have more than 400 all age points. But would he have had the same number running in Texas or the upper Midwest? I don't know. I think a pretty good argument could be made for Trumarc's Zip Code.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

ada5771 said:


> Here we go let me pop the popcorn....


Grab me a beer while you are up.

The saga continues regards

Bubba


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Charles C. said:


> I think you could make the argument that Auggie is best because he's the only dog in the modern era of more widespread training knowledge to have more than 400 all age points. But would he have had the same number running in Texas or the upper Midwest? I don't know. I think a pretty good argument could be made for Trumarc's Zip Code.


The west coast and Northwest in those days (and today) were as tough as anywhere in the country. Every circuit thinks they are the toughest. I think they are all tough.


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## FieldLab (Aug 5, 2011)

All the ribbons in the world dont mean they cld do 
A 250 yrd retrive in tidal water after a cripple diver 
Just my 2 cents besides I have the best dog in the world !160 Canfield Avenue
Randolph, NJ 07869


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

huntinman said:


> The west coast and Northwest in those days (and today) were as tough as anywhere in the country. Every circuit thinks they are the toughest. I think they are all tough.


The size of the trials alone would contradict that idea. A 45 dog open just isn't the same as a 100 dog open.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

If you're basing it on sheer number of titles would not Super Sue be in the running?? There is only one title she never achieved...and she had one pass....too bad Lonnie wasn't around to get her a second....


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## deadriver (Mar 9, 2005)

1tulip said:


> You're adding an extra huge variable to the equation. He was a contemporary of Super Chief. The two of them were superstars at a time when the sport was evolving beyond the domain of the socioeconomically elite. But if this were "Fantasy Field Trials"... I'd put those two on my team any day.


Fantasy Field Trials----there is someone's next million dollar website. LOL


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## Jeff Bartlett (Jan 7, 2006)

EdA said:


> Hey Jeff I don't (no?) know why, should he be in the conversation, certainly, should he be annointed?....enlighten me


he's the only dog in this Era annihilate the competition. there won't be another dog to come close to his accomplishments in his era. I don't think you can judge previous dogs and previous eras to him. not taking anything away from the dogs of the past but that was the past the game is so far tougher now. yes we do have a collar now but that doesn't make up for the dogs vision, drive and courage. and will never know if the dogs of the past could be brought to this day and do the work that auggie did. so I have to say he is the best of our time.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

All the posts have merit. Cliches' that apply -
"To each his own"; "Every dog has it's day"; "In the eyes of the beholder".

Pete Jones told me after the PPRC trial in May 1971 that he had held the book on
all the great ones (in his time) & there were 10 that stood out -

In the years I have judged around the country, eleven dogs stand out. They are listed
below. Later my thoughts of each one will be available.

Candlewoods Tanks A Lot, Wanapum Dart's Dandy, River Oaks Corky, River Oaks Rascal,
Crook's Pork and Beans, Machipongo's W.A. Nappy, Zipper Dee Do, Royal Oaks Jill of
Burgundy, Ebony Argonaut, Stone's Throw Marion's Choice, Showthyme.

Bill Connor


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## GanderLandR11 (Dec 13, 2012)

The best in the chessie world probably ****DC/AFC Gambler's Dilwyn-Stacked Deck MH WDQ*** M, Born 09 Oct 1992, SN026577/02 or ****DC/AFC Bertram's Blazing Firewater MH QFTR***c M, Born 21 Apr 1996, SN344088/06


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

Aluetian Surfbreaker -

Held book on him in Derby & Open/Amateur. 
A prepotent sire!?

Bill Connor


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Scooby Doo was obviously the best. He could talk. Ruh Roe


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

As usual here we are putting the cart before the horse.... This thread has gone way too long without a definition for the word* best*

So how about this. Which one was the best at what the overall post net tending breed has evolved to, with the least derogatory influence on the looks temperment, or health of the breed at large and without simply being a carracature of one aspect ........

john


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

canuckkiller said:


> All the posts have merit. Cliches' that apply -
> "To each his own"; "Every dog has it's day"; "In the eyes of the beholder".
> 
> Pete Jones told me after the PPRC trial in May 1971 that he had held the book on
> ...





Oh c'mon Bill. You judged my dog last summer. Im hurt she didn't make your list. ;-)


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## Jared McComis (Aug 12, 2013)

I know some of you guys who have been in this business a long time semi laugh at this thread. I can tell you that for somebody new it is a good way to learn about dogs. I spent yesterday looking up dogs mentioned in this thread and reading what I can find about them. Even though I don't have a desire at this moment to compete at any level I was able to learn a lot about my new pup. 

In my pups five generation he has River Oaks Corky and Super Chief. I was pretty excited to find that information out. I for one have enjoyed this thread learning about the history of your sport.


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## Jared McComis (Aug 12, 2013)

I also found Lean Mac and a few other hall of fame dogs not mentioned in this thread.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Field trials were organized to objectively determine the "best" retriever on a given weekend. Field trials are considered by most in the retriever sports and out of the sports to represent the highest performance retrievers. It's the primary reason field trials are held - to determine the "best" each week but even so the human judgement of the performances each week always include some subjective aspect. And its the reason a national champion is crowned every year. Some have realized that a national event also has its luck and subjective judgement, so we also count points annually to arrive at a top points retriever for a given year. The weekend FT, the national championship & the tops points dog competitions give us the best criteria developed to date. There are documented lists of dogs by points, by wins, by national championships. Go through the lists and pick your "best ever".

The "best retriever ever" discussion introduces an additional generational aspect where comparisons are outside of head-to-head competition & over extended periods when the game has changed. To some field trials don't represent "the best" but that was & is the intent. To some hunting prowess is the trait desired, to others companionship or some other aspect. So this discussion can be as objective or subjective and far ranging as you want, so define your criteria and write on.


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## younggun86 (May 2, 2013)

how about who in some people opions where the best in certain eras? like who was best in the 80s 90s 2000s present etc. your going to get several different opions. If some people knew one dog and what not and did well in the trial world theyll be bias obviously. im sure youll hear people say lean mac, cody, grady, patton, lottie..... the list is pretty long im sure


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Look at the high point dogs, consider their competition at the time, how many trials did they typically run, how long was their career, male or female, in the case of females did they have litters, how many litters which takes them out of competition for a considerable amount of time.

A case can be made for Kannonball Kate and Wanapum Dart's Dandy who were both great bitches from the West coast. Honcho's career ended shortly after his 6th birthday when he was in his prime and had already been a National Finalist multiple times. Trumarc's Zip Code had a phenomenal record of wins, Double Headers, and National Finalist appearances. Auggie's record was also phenomenal and he was out of action with cruciate ruptures. Cork of Oakwood Lane, King Buck, and many others are certainly in the conversation. There is no way to determine or even logically speculate anymore than comparing Babe Ruth to Hank Aaron.

Therefore your Honor I submit that the unquestioned all-time high point retriever River Oaks Corky deserves the title.


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

I thought for sure you were gonna say Snoopy.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

EdA said:


> Look at the high point dogs, consider their competition at the time, how many trials did they typically run, how long was their career, male or female, in the case of females did they have litters, how many litters which takes them out of competition for a considerable amount of time.
> 
> A case can be made for Kannonball Kate and Wanapum Dart's Dandy who were both great bitches from the West coast. Honcho's career ended shortly after his 6th birthday when he was in his prime and had already been a National Finalist multiple times. Trumarc's Zip Code had a phenomenal record of wins, Double Headers, and National Finalist appearances. Auggie's record was also phenomenal and he was out of action with cruciate ruptures. Cork of Oakwood Lane, King Buck, and many others are certainly in the conversation. There is no way to determine or even logically speculate anymore than comparing Babe Ruth to Hank Aaron.
> 
> Therefore your Honor I submit that the unquestioned all-time high point retriever River Oaks Corky deserves the title.


I agree with this....but I do know a couple dogs who went every weekend against him and cleaned his clock ,Handler error maybe? So the answer is "who is the best"......... is in the eye of the beholder.....Jim


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Actually this is the greatest dog ever, 15 pound Fred, son of Snoopy, lost to cancer at 11 and a little piece of my heart went with him. I have had dogs for 62 of my 68 years and if I could have one of them back he would probably be the one.


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

younggun86 said:


> how about who in some people opions where the best in certain eras? like who was best in the 80s 90s 2000s present etc. your going to get several different opions. If some people knew one dog and what not and did well in the trial world theyll be bias obviously. im sure youll hear people say lean mac, cody, grady, patton, lottie..... the list is pretty long im sure


I kind of like this idea...I never had the privilege of seeing any of these dogs. And I can't seem to find any videos of them either on YouTube. Did anyone witness first hand any of these dogs? Maybe have a story about them?

Also, many people have said that the best dog is in their living room...tell us a story. Why you appreciate and love that dog so much. Keep it fun! It's not like this is going to a vote. Apparently there were/are many wonderful dogs in the FT's and HT's and that's great to hear about. Everyone has a favorite story of a dog they saw, or what they're dog has done. We're on our second consecutive "snow day" (it didn't actually snow by the way) in Louisiana so cabin fever is getting to me!

Aaaaand even better if you have a picture or a video. Please share it! This has been a fun thread to read!

Many Thanks,

Tony


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## Duckdog (Jan 3, 2003)

There is only one great dog in the world and every boy owns him


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

This is a video of a hunt we made opening day of 2011. This dog is General Edwin's Ace "Ace" - my brother in laws dog - from Boeuf River Retrievers. He's our first "real" hunting retriever. I say real in that he was professionally trained and achieved SH at a young age. I think before he was two. I know that's not a whole lot by most standards but he was the first dog we ever had that did that....

Anyway, the video is pretty boring to be honest. Just us shooting speckle bellies but at about the 3:35 mark he made his first (pretty) long blind. He was a month away from 2 years old, this was his first season to hunt, and and retrieved a crippled speckle belly at about 125-150 yards. The GoPro cameras can make distance seem greater. I wouldn't say it was a flawless retrieve but man what an exciting moment!!! To see the time, and MONEY that was invested in him first hand. I knew right then I'd get one someday!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiBid7o-FXU


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Like the BCS - SOS is significantly different in all parts of the country & depends a lot on the dogs that create the competitive nuclei of any circuit at any given time - & that changes from year to year - I asked a now deceased competitor why he was on a different early circuit that year than he normally ran - It was his perception that the competition was inferior on another circuit & he wanted to fatten up his dog's resume. Circuit's enjoy different advantages, the Pacific Northwest normally had good water dogs. That advantage has gone by the wayside with much colder winters of late & most of the watery areas now colonized. Unless you have the grounds available to challenge your dog routinely you will never know how good they are. 

I've had the privilege of running against, judging & watching some of the great dogs mentioned on this thread, also have owned pups sired by many of them 

& have seen many more that if not great certainly border on that. I watched Dandy all the way from a pup to a NFC, & I watched Hal Loop go into hysterics when she calmly came back to the island before the line & proceed to eat the bird. She did deliver what she was not interested in eating to hand . I've had the privilege of visiting with some of the great trainers of my time as I'm sure many of the old timers here have. Once they know you, it's amazing how candid they will be, & what a fount of info they are. 

Any dog that wins it all deserves to be among those called great - longer does not necessarily mean harder - I've seen among others "Oily" Adams & "Pizza" Pete set tests with no bird more than 100 yards, trust me, the average MH is not going to be playing in that field with the big dogs. When you see a dog come to the line, sit & assess the situation, then go out & hammer the test you know you've seen greatness. 

Some things I would pass on from observation: Honcho never threw a bad pup, but was advised to go to Percy when Honcho pups were no longer available, the Paha Sapa Chief line could throw some very sticky dogs, River Oaks Corky threw very nice, trainable by amateur pups, I never saw anything about Lean Mac that appealed to me though he was well merchandised by his owner. If Charly had ever bred Dandy to a dog I liked I would have had one of those pups. I trained & ran against Chad's dog's sire Code Blue, probably one of the nicer dogs around & certainly the class of his handlers string at that time.


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

Marvin S said:


> I never saw anything about Lean Mac that appealed to me though he was well merchandised by his owner. If Charly had ever bred Dandy to a dog I liked I would have had one of those pups. I trained & ran against Chad's dog's sire Code Blue, probably one of the nicer dogs around & certainly the class of his handlers string at that time.


Mr. Marvin, I'm curious about two of these dogs. Both Code Blue, and Lean Mac are in my new pups pedigree. If you don't mind, could you expand on what you did or did not like about them? I've heard some people talk about these two dogs. What about them was or was not appealing? 

Thanks, 

Tony


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

tony,
marvin can tell you about those two. he can also tell you about the two that were on the ark with him.;-) 

tasteless joke, one old guy to another.


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## BAYDOG (May 30, 2009)

JoeOverby said:


> If you're basing it on sheer number of titles would not Super Sue be in the running?? There is only one title she never achieved...and she had one pass....too bad Lonnie wasn't around to get her a second....


may have a winner?? SRSC FC AFC MHR HRCH DAY'S END HILLVIEW SUPER SUE MH


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

roseberry said:


> tony,
> marvin can tell you about those two. he can also tell you about the two that were on the ark with him.;-)
> 
> tasteless joke, one old guy to another.


You train on occasion with a guy who is a much bigger student, more knowledgeable of the game, & more successful than I. 
If you can get him to talk he could probably fill the book you are going to write some day about dog training with, at the least 2 or 3 chapters. How's you dog doing, & not the one in NM .
As for Tony's request, today is a big day in politics with an important meeting which I need to prepare for, but I will get back with him with some history at a later date. 

John, no one appreciates a good joke more than I do .


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

Seeing a dog run from the line is a totally different view of the animal. Thus, individuals which judged these great dogs over the past few decades, I feel, offer the best opinions. 

If you do not get the information directly from at least 20 year plus veteran it's just hearsay in my opinion. The fish always gets bigger every time the story is told. 

However, you will be able to talk about the ones you see today with true facts. 

Dan


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

JTS said:


> NO.
> 
> 
> No, actually there is 9 (GMHR, GRHRCH, MNH, NAFC, NFC, CFC, CAFC, CNFC, CNAFC) . And as has been mentioned, Field trials are competitive by design, hunt tests are not, thus hunt tests/titles do not factor into the discussion.


Default
OK...let me phrase it this way. She has more accumulated titles than any other dog in history. Regardless of venue, why would you not consider her based on that accomplishment alone?? Because she played hts?? I'll take the versatility over a one trick pony any day...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

JTS said:


> NO.
> 
> 
> No, actually there is 9 (GMHR, GRHRCH, MNH, NAFC, NFC, CFC, CAFC, CNFC, CNAFC) . And as has been mentioned, Field trials are competitive by design, hunt tests are not, thus hunt tests/titles do not factor into the discussion.


NFC NAFC Greatest FT Dog of All time would be useless if it broke at the sound of a duck call every time. FT only test one aspect of a retrievers talents and frankly pretty useless ones at that. 


/Paul


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## coachmo (Apr 23, 2009)

Paul, exactly what is the one aspect and one aspect alone displayed in a field trial? And how is that aspect useless? I'm serious not trying to be sarcastic.


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## BAYDOG (May 30, 2009)

I would take a MH , HRCH, MHR , over a FC/AFC any day of the week. Hunt test's , in my opinion, better test a dog. FT are a lot like Conformation shows, in that a lot of the judges and who has influence on those Judges feed into a 1st place and 2nd and so on.... Besides, whens the last time , hunting in the swamp or goose field, you ran a blind past two people in white jackets in lawn chairs reading a newspaper?? (actual test I saw at a Licensed FT Open stake).


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## coachmo (Apr 23, 2009)

To each his own but I completely disagree with you that a field trial is in anyway similar to a confirmation show. That's almost comical! I can't speak with a lot of FT experience as I am just getting started in that venue but I can tell you that my young FT dog can hunt with any of the others all day, everyday!


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## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

This outta be good!!


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## Bill Billups (Sep 13, 2003)

BAYDOG said:


> I would take a MH , HRCH, MHR , over a FC/AFC any day of the week. Hunt test's , in my opinion, better test a dog. FT are a lot like Conformation shows, in that a lot of the judges and who has influence on those Judges feed into a 1st place and 2nd and so on.... Besides, whens the last time , hunting in the swamp or goose field, you ran a blind past two people in white jackets in lawn chairs reading a newspaper?? (actual test I saw at a Licensed FT Open stake).


FTs are nothing but dogs running out to a guy in a white coat and picking up a bird. What could be easier?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

BAYDOG said:


> may have a winner?? SRSC FC AFC MHR HRCH DAY'S END HILLVIEW SUPER SUE MH


Again we need to contemplate the idea of best. This dog would win the most versatile; and while she probably just ran out of time, or own interest I'm pretty sure, that GHRCH is an event that just wasn't ran. Plus she's a female; which make it more noteworthy

Hattie McBunn (great dog herself and a great producer)


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Again we need to contemplate the idea of best. This dog would win the most versatile; and while she probably just ran out of time, or own interest I'm pretty sure, that GHRCH is an event that just wasn't ran. Plus she's a female; which make it more noteworthy
> 
> Hattie McBunn (great dog herself and a great producer)


She had one grand pass...


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

BAYDOG said:


> I would take a MH , HRCH, MHR , over a FC/AFC any day of the week. Hunt test's , in my opinion, better test a dog. FT are a lot like Conformation shows, in that a lot of the judges and who has influence on those Judges feed into a 1st place and 2nd and so on.... Besides, whens the last time , hunting in the swamp or goose field, you ran a blind past two people in white jackets in lawn chairs reading a newspaper?? (actual test I saw at a Licensed FT Open stake).


Your signature line pretty much sums up your "opinion".


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> NFC NAFC Greatest FT Dog of All time would be useless if it broke at the sound of a duck call every time. FT only test one aspect of a retrievers talents and frankly pretty useless ones at that.
> 
> 
> /Paul


Most ignorant post you have ever put on this board... And that's saying something....


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## coachmo (Apr 23, 2009)

Bill, I'm really waiting for gundogs2002 to come back on here with a "Bazinga" or something!! Surely he's not serious but then again maybe not!!


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## ada5771 (Oct 31, 2012)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> NFC NAFC Greatest FT Dog of All time would be useless if it broke at the sound of a duck call every time. FT only test one aspect of a retrievers talents and frankly pretty useless ones at that.
> 
> 
> /Paul



I guess that Screaming mallard flyer given the 6 shot salute doesn’t count as a duck call...


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

BAYDOG said:


> I would take a MH , HRCH, MHR , over a FC/AFC any day of the week. Hunt test's , in my opinion, better test a dog. FT are a lot like Conformation shows, in that a lot of the judges and who has influence on those Judges feed into a 1st place and 2nd and so on.... Besides, whens the last time , hunting in the swamp or goose field, you ran a blind past two people in white jackets in lawn chairs reading a newspaper?? (actual test I saw at a Licensed FT Open stake).


You can't be serious. Field trials are about testing desire, trainability, marking, lining ability and courage to the max. There's a reason most hunt tests folks buy pups from field trial pedigrees. Most field trial dogs I know could pass upper level hunt tests with about 10 minutes of training to that end, and almost all the successful ones I know make fantastic hunting dogs.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

huntinman said:


> Most ignorant post you have ever put on this board... And that's saying something....[/
> 
> Just couldn't take it anymore Bill, eh! no willpower...still think Snoopy gets my vote.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

JTS said:


> Not True.
> 
> Here is just one example of many......... FC AFC CFC CAFC GMPR MHR JAZZTIME LAST CHANCE V PEKISKO


Touche'...but I still disagree that because a dog has HT titles and doesn't play white coat games exclusively makes him inferior. 
P.S. upon further research the most titled dog in Labrador history isn't a trial dog at all...but I guess we can't include Remi in this discussion cause she lacks the elusive "N" in her alphabet.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I vote for Lassie. Also, the old dog on Homeward Bound: The Incredible Journey.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

huntinman said:


> I think they are all tough.


LOL. To steal and mangle a great John Wayne line: They are all tough and even tougher when you can't handle and your dog isn't any good


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

younggun86 said:


> how about who in some people opions where the best in certain eras?


I'll bite and proclaim that the best in the past couple of years is Cane and open the floor for debate.


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## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

What is the elusive "N"?


JoeOverby said:


> Touche'...but I still disagree that because a dog has HT titles and doesn't play white coat games exclusively makes him inferior.
> P.S. upon further research the most titled dog in Labrador history isn't a trial dog at all...but I guess we can't include Remi in this discussion cause she lacks the elusive "N" in her alphabet.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

denver said:


> what is the elusive "n"?


n fc, n afc....


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

BAYDOG said:


> I would take a MH , HRCH, MHR , over a FC/AFC any day of the week. Hunt test's , in my opinion, better test a dog. FT are a lot like Conformation shows, in that a lot of the judges and who has influence on those Judges feed into a 1st place and 2nd and so on.... Besides, whens the last time , hunting in the swamp or goose field, you ran a blind past two people in white jackets in lawn chairs reading a newspaper?? (actual test I saw at a Licensed FT Open stake).


Bless your heart.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

cakaiser said:


> I vote for Lassie. Also, the old dog on Homeward Bound: The Incredible Journey.


Yeah Charlotte but, don't you think Timmy had some input as a team, where the old guy was on his own. Just saying...Weatherwax or was it Weatherspoon , the various female Lassie trainer said he taught them over a 100 words or commands. Guess after thinking, Lassie trumps Snoopy because Lassie was a real dog.


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## BAYDOG (May 30, 2009)

coachmo said:


> To each his own but I completely disagree with you that a field trial is in anyway similar to a confirmation show. That's almost comical! I can't speak with a lot of FT experience as I am just getting started in that venue but I can tell you that my young FT dog can hunt with any of the others all day, everyday!


Yes, to each their own, in a FT you can have a bunch of good dogs, great dogs, and one may be better then the rest, but any time the human factor comes into play, decisions can be swayed. Same as in conformation. I have seen dogs loose to inferior dogs in conformation, just because another dog was hot, or their handler was hot, ton of politics involved. Same can be held true for a Open dog, with a name worthy handler?? If all dogs ran clean tests, then how does a judge determine 1st , 2nd etc?? The human factor comes in. In hunt test it's either pass / fail. Period, all human factors are removed. I like that dogs in HT's have prove themselves in "Hunt like" scenarios. No white coats, people in chairs reading and rustling papers to distract a dog. I grew up in Field Trials all my life. Didn't start HT till late 80's early 90's. I prefer HT, more realistic to me is all, and more attainable to the average guy, he passes or does not pass. No missing out because your dog wasn't well known, or handled by the new hot rod Pro handler. No argument that top level dogs , from both styles, would be great hunters. And that a MH couldn't compete in FT, and a FC couldn't compete in HT's.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Bless your heart.


I know what that means....my grandma used to say that sometimes .


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## coachmo (Apr 23, 2009)

Baydog, I have been the test marshal at a few hunt tests where dogs were dropped and the handlers wanted to speak to the judges as to the reasons why. The handlers often disagreed with the judge's decision. Isn't that the same thing as you're saying happens in field trials? Any event from football games to bbq cook-offs can be swayed by the "human" component.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Criquetpas said:


> Yeah Charlotte but, don't you think Timmy had some input as a team, where the old guy was on his own. Just saying...Weatherwax or was it Weatherspoon , the various female Lassie trainer said he taught them over a 100 words or commands. Guess after thinking, Lassie trumps Snoopy because Lassie was a real dog.


I don't know, Earl. This is all way over my head.
Pretty confused about the whole treat training thread, too.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Criquetpas said:


> I know what that means....my grandma used to say that sometimes .


It's a great saying. The simplicity of it works so well.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

BAYDOG said:


> No missing out because your dog wasn't well known, or handled by the new hot rod Pro handler.


I think about exactly the same amount of judging the holder of the leash occurs at HTs as in FTs--not very much. There are dogs that get passes that shouldn't and some that get dropped that shouldn't have--the human element is at play in both. I think in either venue that this stuff occurs rarely (much less often than many think) and only at the margins but to say it only happens in FTs is wrong.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

BAYDOG said:


> I grew up in Field Trials all my life..


I'll call BULLSHIT on this{as well as the rest of what you posted}
If you grew up in FT's you couldn't have posted that BS

Like JTS I also agree with your statement that you can't fix stupid


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> huntinman said:
> 
> 
> > Most ignorant post you have ever put on this board... And that's saying something....[/
> ...


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## starjack (Apr 30, 2009)

The farm dog that took on the Bull that tryed to charge the farmer. It did happen it was my neighbor.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

ADB391 said:


> Mr. Marvin, I'm curious about two of these dogs. Both Code Blue, and Lean Mac are in my new pups pedigree. If you don't mind, could you expand on what you did or did not like about them? I've heard some people talk about these two dogs. What about them was or was not appealing?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tony


Code Blue was a nice looking dog of about 70#, his sire Code Red was an idiot that had several titled siblings. He was a dog that could do everything well was tractable on the line & managed to pickup about 125 Amat AA points while being handled by someone who did not make being a good handler his top priority. We all ran the circuit at about the same time & competed head to head for several years. In training, CB would blink a bumper if there was bird scent in the area, about his only fault once he was through AA training. His owner was very selective in who he bred to, hence not a lot of CB pups. 

Lean Mac was trained early by Dennis Robbins. Jock ran this circuit when he was in the states but really cleaned up in Canada. I thought him to be a somewhat coarse looking dog lacking a real smooth gait. His Water blinds, crabbing down to the water were not something most people found appealing & that tendency was exhibited in his pups, most of whom were very expensive. As he got older & I ran into him on the MT circuit I thought him to be weak on big water (it's called blowing bubbles)& on occasion he exhibited that on smaller water. His 1st breeding was to FC-AFC Carroll's Black Velvet, a very good dog in her own right, & those pups were well placed in the retriever world. CBV then disappeared from the scene. Some awful good trainers in this sport would disagree with me about LM & in many cases have enjoyed great success. But I'm reminded of the training session where a somewhat novice in the sport had purchased one of those $2,500 pups brought it through the derby with some success & had sent it to a very good trainer for advanced work. We're watching the dog crab down to the water with the feeling the dog may have some cat genes & the owner is emoting up by the trucks, asking what can be done & told that they own a well pedigreed hunting dog, if he'll even do that. For the trainer who owns a lot of dogs & washes out a lot that's not a big deal, but for the person in this sport who does it one at a time, it's 3 years out of their competitive career. I'd personally rather go to a HT & try to find something for $750 that looked trainable to the FT level than take a chance that I would end up with a dog with that lack of pleasure to the eye. BTW, that owner no longer plays for whatever reason.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

baydog,

three years ago i decided i was "gonna make me a field trial dog". since then i have:
1. been as respectful as possible to everyone i meet in this sport.
2. joined clubs and training groups.
3. worked trials by shooting flyers, throwing birds, lugging equipment and setting up tests, hiding gunners, brushing stands, blah, blah, blah.
4. marshalling stakes for and entertaining judges from all over the country.
5. making friends with the most sucessful trial folk who had time for me.
6. had my young dogs with pros who were classified with various letters of the alphabet. A thru...........
7. been interviewed by and bought some nice pups (i didn't deserve) from folks i convinced my home was "a good placement"!
8. trained a bunch. purchased a program.....or two....
9. used my dale carnegie and zig ziglar skills extensively at events.(it has only failed me on one ft weekend thus far) 

i have charm and a dynamic personality. i have been working hard. i am obviously sucking up. but i have drawn a line and have never put my vast wealth on display to influence others. i think if it were political, i shoulda won something by now?;-)


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

Mr. Marvin,

Thank you for the response! I'm not sure if I'm going to explain this with the correct terminology but I'll try anyway....

CB is the great great grand sire of a pup I pick up next week and LM is a great grand sire so thats why I asked. 

Out of curiosity, do you know anything or have you ever heard of FC AFC Fish Rivers Out of the Park "Homer"? He's the sire of my pup and I've only read about him what I could find. Id be interested to hear if you've ever seen him run. Im excited as he's my first retriever. 

Thanks again,

Tony


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

huntinman said:


> Criquetpas said:
> 
> 
> > HaHa!! Show me an NFC or NAFC that won't freaking sit while some yahoo blows a duck call. I've hunted the legs off my dogs and demand they be steady. Never affected their trialing any that I could tell.
> ...


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

EdA said:


> Look at the high point dogs, consider their competition at the time, how many trials did they typically run, how long was their career, male or female, in the case of females did they have litters, how many litters which takes them out of competition for a considerable amount of time.
> 
> A case can be made for Kannonball Kate and Wanapum Dart's Dandy who were both great bitches from the West coast. Honcho's career ended shortly after his 6th birthday when he was in his prime and had already been a National Finalist multiple times. Trumarc's Zip Code had a phenomenal record of wins, Double Headers, and National Finalist appearances. Auggie's record was also phenomenal and he was out of action with cruciate ruptures. Cork of Oakwood Lane, King Buck, and many others are certainly in the conversation. There is no way to determine or even logically speculate anymore than comparing Babe Ruth to Hank Aaron.
> 
> Therefore your Honor I submit that the unquestioned all-time high point retriever River Oaks Corky deserves the title.


Plus, multiple National wins in multiple countries.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Marvin S said:


> Code Blue was a nice looking dog of about 70#, his sire Code Red was an idiot that had several titled siblings. He was a dog that could do everything well was tractable on the line & managed to pickup about 125 Amat AA points while being handled by someone who did not make being a good handler his top priority. We all ran the circuit at about the same time & competed head to head for several years. In training, CB would blink a bumper if there was bird scent in the area, about his only fault once he was through AA training. His owner was very selective in who he bred to, hence not a lot of CB pups.
> 
> Lean Mac was trained early by Dennis Robbins. Jock ran this circuit when he was in the states but really cleaned up in Canada. I thought him to be a somewhat coarse looking dog lacking a real smooth gait. His Water blinds, crabbing down to the water were not something most people found appealing & that tendency was exhibited in his pups, most of whom were very expensive. As he got older & I ran into him on the MT circuit I thought him to be weak on big water (it's called blowing bubbles)& on occasion he exhibited that on smaller water. His 1st breeding was to FC-AFC Carroll's Black Velvet, a very good dog in her own right, & those pups were well placed in the retriever world. CBV then disappeared from the scene. Some awful good trainers in this sport would disagree with me about LM & in many cases have enjoyed great success. But I'm reminded of the training session where a somewhat novice in the sport had purchased one of those $2,500 pups brought it through the derby with some success & had sent it to a very good trainer for advanced work. We're watching the dog crab down to the water with the feeling the dog may have some cat genes & the owner is emoting up by the trucks, asking what can be done & told that they own a well pedigreed hunting dog, if he'll even do that. For the trainer who owns a lot of dogs & washes out a lot that's not a big deal, but for the person in this sport who does it one at a time, it's 3 years out of their competitive career. I'd personally rather go to a HT & try to find something for $750 that looked trainable to the FT level than take a chance that I would end up with a dog with that lack of pleasure to the eye. BTW, that owner no longer plays for whatever reason.


Marvin, we know you like Code Blue & he was a great dog. But we also know that you have been critical of LM in one way or another as long as I have been reading your posts that mentioned LM. Problem is likely that you saw him early before Lardy, Attar & Dave Smith had their collective hands training him. From my experience & witness, LM was an outstanding dog & few were his peers when it came to desire. Few too have been LM's peers when it comes to breeding. Sure he was bred a lot but his progeny led the list of dogs qualified for nat'ls for years after he was no longer competing or alive. LM has earned his place as once of the greatest ever. Code Blue, not so much, but still a great dog that has produced some great dogs too. Point is we don't have to disparage one dog to exalt another. We all have our favorites for one reason or another but the objective facts are that LM has few peers in our retriever games, like him or not. I have mine too & several Grangemead dogs & Super Chief probably are at the top of the list. They all had great accomplishments but the factors that puts them at the top of my list are admittedly subjective bias because I had the opportunity to hear about the Grangemead dogs from a handler I greatly admired & I got to see Super Chief on several occasions, even getting to talk to his owner-handler when I was young & very impressionable. But that is part of why we have such a hard time picking the greatest, because there is so much subjective reasoning a part of the picking & choosing.


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## BAYDOG (May 30, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> I'll call BULLSHIT on this{as well as the rest of what you posted}
> If you grew up in FT's you couldn't have posted that BS
> 
> Like JTS I also agree with your statement that you can't fix stupid


Father was a founding member of Central Retriever Club here in NY, also one of the longest member at Finger Lakes, I'll be 48 here pretty quick. I was all the things you could do at licensed Trials, fun days, plus all the training through out the week, been around retrievers of almost all types from the time I could throw a bumper. Trained with and was a helper for Kim and Bill Mosses for 4 years. So say what ya want. 99% of the time the Trials were great and great people, but there is always politics. Funny how when ya say something some people don't agree with or have different opinions on, the name calling and insults start??? Your probably one of the 1% that can make any retriever event seem un-friendly.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Granddaddy said:


> Marvin, we know you like Code Blue & he was a great dog. But we also know that you have been critical of LM in one way or another as long as I have been reading your posts that mentioned LM. Problem is likely that you saw him early before Lardy, Attar & Dave Smith had their collective hands training him. From my experience & witness, LM was an outstanding dog & few were his peers when it came to desire. Few too have been LM's peers when it comes to breeding. Sure he was bred a lot but his progeny led the list of dogs qualified for nat'ls for years after he was no longer competing or alive. LM has earned his place as once of the greatest ever. Code Blue, not so much, but still a great dog that has produced some great dogs too. Point is we don't have to disparage one dog to exalt another. We all have our favorites for one reason or another but the objective facts are that LM has few peers in our retriever games, like him or not. I have mine too & several Grangemead dogs & Super Chief probably are at the top of the list. They all had great accomplishments but the factors that puts them at the top of my list are admittedly subjective bias because I had the opportunity to hear about the Grangemead dogs from a handler I greatly admired & I got to see Super Chief on several occasions, even getting to talk to his owner-handler when I was young & very impressionable. But that is part of why we have such a hard time picking the greatest, because there is so much subjective reasoning a part of the picking & choosing.


David - I ran my dog against LM his entire competitive career - they had within a week, the same birth dates - my observations span his entire career - my favorite dog was Watergator Sam but I could never get a dog sired by him to the level needed to play seriously.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BAYDOG said:


> Yes, to each their own, in a FT you can have a bunch of good dogs, great dogs, and one may be better then the rest, but any time the human factor comes into play, decisions can be swayed. Same as in conformation. I have seen dogs loose to inferior dogs in conformation, just because another dog was hot, or their handler was hot, ton of politics involved. Same can be held true for a Open dog, with a name worthy handler?? If all dogs ran clean tests, then how does a judge determine 1st , 2nd etc?? The human factor comes in. In hunt test it's either pass / fail. Period, all human factors are removed. I like that dogs in HT's have prove themselves in "Hunt like" scenarios. No white coats, people in chairs reading and rustling papers to distract a dog. I grew up in Field Trials all my life. Didn't start HT till late 80's early 90's. I prefer HT, more realistic to me is all, and more attainable to the average guy, he passes or does not pass. No missing out because your dog wasn't well known, or handled by the new hot rod Pro handler. No argument that top level dogs , from both styles, would be great hunters. And that a MH couldn't compete in FT, and a FC couldn't compete in HT's.



I like what Jacob wrote: "Bless your heart"


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Marvin S said:


> Code Blue was a nice looking dog of about 70#, his sire Code Red was an idiot that had several titled siblings. He was a dog that could do everything well was tractable on the line & managed to pickup about 125 Amat AA points while being handled by someone who did not make being a good handler his top priority. We all ran the circuit at about the same time & competed head to head for several years. In training, CB would blink a bumper if there was bird scent in the area, about his only fault once he was through AA training. His owner was very selective in who he bred to, hence not a lot of CB pups.
> 
> Lean Mac was trained early by Dennis Robbins. Jock ran this circuit when he was in the states but really cleaned up in Canada. I thought him to be a somewhat coarse looking dog lacking a real smooth gait. His Water blinds, crabbing down to the water were not something most people found appealing & that tendency was exhibited in his pups, most of whom were very expensive. As he got older & I ran into him on the MT circuit I thought him to be weak on big water (it's called blowing bubbles)& on occasion he exhibited that on smaller water. His 1st breeding was to FC-AFC Carroll's Black Velvet, a very good dog in her own right, & those pups were well placed in the retriever world. CBV then disappeared from the scene. Some awful good trainers in this sport would disagree with me about LM & in many cases have enjoyed great success. But I'm reminded of the training session where a somewhat novice in the sport had purchased one of those $2,500 pups brought it through the derby with some success & had sent it to a very good trainer for advanced work. We're watching the dog crab down to the water with the feeling the dog may have some cat genes & the owner is emoting up by the trucks, asking what can be done & told that they own a well pedigreed hunting dog, if he'll even do that. For the trainer who owns a lot of dogs & washes out a lot that's not a big deal, but for the person in this sport who does it one at a time, it's 3 years out of their competitive career. I'd personally rather go to a HT & try to find something for $750 that looked trainable to the FT level than take a chance that I would end up with a dog with that lack of pleasure to the eye. BTW, that owner no longer plays for whatever reason.


News flash Marv: Lean Mac, That coarse looking dog who lacked a smooth gate and crabbed to the water where he did "unappealing water blinds and blew bubbles and was weak on both big and little water happened to get more AA points than Code Blue. He also happened to win 4 National Am Championships, the most ever. In addition he finished over 120 consecutive National seriesl a phenomenal accomplishment. 

His people must have been better at playing the politics that BAYDOG complains about better than anyone, for that wretched dog to ever have advanced past any water series

I'd say you need to update your famously objective judging website. You need to label as a cheat anyone who ever gave that miserable wretch of a dog a placement

Furthemore, since you said he passed those miserable traits on to his puppies, and over 150 of them went on to title{more than double the 2nd best stud in history}I'd venture to say that the judging pool is tainted to the core.


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

Get the popcorn, seems to me many RTF members could fight in church over the sermon.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Backwater said:


> Get the popcorn, seems to me many RTF members could fight in church over the sermon.


Yep... It's sort of like bow hunters turning up their noses at crossbows and other such nonsense... All types of dog work is good dog work in my opinion... Would the dogs be better off on a chain in someone's back yard? 

The average guy gets so wrapped up in his own life that he thinks his way is the only (or best way) of doing something. There are great dogs out there in every venue, every region of the country, and believe it or not their are some great ones that don't play our games... They "just" hunt.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

huntinman said:


> Yep... It's sort of like bow hunters turning up their noses at crossbows and other such nonsense... All types of dog work is good dog work in my opinion... Would the dogs be better off on a chain in someone's back yard?
> 
> The average guy gets so wrapped up in his own life that he thinks his way is the only (or best way) of doing something. There are great dogs out thir in every venue, every region of the country, and believe it or not their are some great ones that don't play our games... They "just" hunt.


Well said!!


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## coachmo (Apr 23, 2009)

I don't think it would be impossible to determine which dog(s) was/were "the greatest" but you have to define the categories, criteria and time span used to make the assessment. As pointed out through several posts certain dogs will be considered great at various aspects in the retriever world.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

huntinman said:


> Yep... It's sort of like bow hunters turning up their noses at crossbows and other such nonsense... All types of dog work is good dog work in my opinion... Would the dogs be better off on a chain in someone's back yard?
> 
> The average guy gets so wrapped up in his own life that he thinks his way is the only (or best way) of doing something. There are great dogs out thir in every venue, every region of the country, and believe it or not their are some great ones that don't play our games... They "just" hunt.


Completely agree.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I can't believe nobody has mentioned Mr. Peabody. I mean, come on....the dude invented a time travel machine. How much better can a dog get?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

HaHaHaHaHa! I finally get Marvin's intended insult when he said according to pedigree I had a dog that liked water like a cat!!!!!! I thought he was talking about my young one, (who has NO Lean Mac) but NOOOOOOOO! He was talking about Indy!!!! I am rolling on the floor laughing about that, anyone who has ever seen Indy attack the water knows why! "Outboard Indy"!


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## pcarpenter (Sep 4, 2013)

huntinman said:


> There are great dogs out thir in every venue, every region of the country, and believe it or not their are some great ones that don't play our games... They "just" hunt.



I owed one of them. The dog came from good Field Trial lines (FC AFC Yellowstone's TNT Explosion) but never competed in HT or FT. His desire to retrieve and love of water was a site to behold (why jump into the water when you can leap at full speed EVERY TIME). To him, it didn't matter if it was a duck, a bumper or a tennis ball .... the style, speed and efficiency were the same. Ran and swam straight as an arrow. Didn't break but he was a creeper - haha. My only regret was not having him professionally trained as I know he could have earned FC/AFC. I had to put him down last August after 10 wonderful years (kidney disease). That dog brought us lots of love, laughs and great memories. We miss him everyday. 

Remember, when you argue about which ones were the best, you are comparing degrees of greatness. Any dog that achieves FC/AFC is special.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Don't forget Jim the Wonder Dog:
http://www.jimthewonderdog.com/foj_video.html


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

My Lean Mac grandson swims like Michael Phelps. He runs and swims like he is a laser guided missle.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> I can't believe nobody has mentioned Mr. Peabody. I mean, come on....the dude invented a time travel machine. How much better can a dog get?


Alas we need a poll for cartoon dogs (Snoopy, Scooby Do, Mr. Peabody), TV and movie dogs (Old Yeller, King of Sgt. Preston fame, Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, Bullet of Roy Rogers fame, my dog Skip-personal favorite, Eddie, Benji, Toto, Neil the St. Bernard ghost martini drinking dog on Topper, others???


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

Sharon Potter said:


> I can't believe nobody has mentioned Mr. Peabody. I mean, come on....the dude invented a time travel machine. How much better can a dog get?


No one has mentioned "Air Bud" either. He truly is the Michael Jordan of dogs.

It seems we have taken a dramatic turn for the worse. This was not the intention of my original question. 

I've never seen one of these dogs other than a photograph on the internet. I think it's safe to say each one of them is/was a great dog in their own right. To achieve the titles that ANY of them have, they must have been quite special. That's why there are now 14 pages of debates. 

I tried this before so I'll give it another shot in hopes that this will make this a positive thread. If you read through the thread, there are many dogs listed. WHY were they great? For example: "Dog xxxx took extremely good lines. He/she was exceptional at _____. He/she had a great nose. He/she ______."

It's fun for me as a new person to this world to hear the good things about these dogs. The stories of what made them great are far better tham the stories of why theyre NOT.

Tony


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

EdA said:


> Alas we need a poll for cartoon dogs (Snoopy, Scooby Do, Mr. Peabody), TV and movie dogs (Old Yeller, King of Sgt. Preston fame, Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, Bullet of Roy Rogers fame, my dog Skip-personal favorite, Eddie, Benji, Toto, others???


Dont forget Astro Jetson! He was way ahead of his time and loved the treadmill.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Don't forget about Underdog...


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

And the best ever K9 dog in the WORLD!


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

What about Cleo the Basset hound? She could talk too.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Milo the jrt in the Jim Caray movie The Mask. "..not the cheese,,,the keys!" Priceless


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I loved Lassie, but Frank really makes me laugh:


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## 2labs (Dec 10, 2003)

I would throw in the name skidboot.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

What about Babe? The pig who became a sheep herding dog?? Can he be on the poll?
I mean... he even won a trial!! With perfect scores!! Got a standing ovation!!

That'll do pig, that'll do....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zHmeTeLgMY


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Don't forget Hooch. He should for sure, should be on the poll. He was so pretty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKbv8E68kLI


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Poor ADB391 has just received a lesson in old time RTF gobbledygook. Welcome to frivolous Friday discussions.


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

EdA said:


> Poor ADB391 has just received a lesson in old time RTF gobbledygook. Welcome to frivolous Friday discussions.


Hahaha I guess this is better than the yelling and fighting Mr. Ed!

Tony


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

"THERE'S no need to FEAR; Underdog IS HERE!!!"


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Anyone remember "Mighty Manfred?"


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

ADB391 said:


> Hahaha I guess this is better than the yelling and fighting Mr. Ed!
> 
> Tony


That is Dr. Ed.
Mr. Ed is a fabulous, talking horse. Willlbbbuurrr...


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## Gatzby (Dec 16, 2010)

My vote is for Brian on family guy. He was a dog and he still scored hot chics! His drinking is the only ***** in his armor


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Can't forget the most famous Canadian dog.









..................


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## ADB391 (Jan 9, 2014)

cakaiser said:


> That is Dr. Ed.
> Mr. Ed is a fabulous, talking horse. Willlbbbuurrr...


I apologize...did not know. Sorry Dr. Ed


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

mngundog said:


> Can't forget the most famous Canadian dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a flying skunk!!!!!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

2tall said:


> Looks like a flying skunk!!!!!


It actually looks like one of those cats I was posting about .


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

ADB391 said:


> I apologize...did not know. Sorry Dr. Ed


Dr. Edward Aycock
If you don't know who he is...you might find it interesting to look it up.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

huntinman said:


> Most ignorant post you have ever put on this board... And that's saying something....


Now Bill, don't be lazy I'm sure i've put more ignorant posts on here than that. And to back up my statement, go ask anybody with a seeing eye dog or any military personal in combat what they think of the FT retrievers talents and their value in comparison to their dog.

/Paul


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Now Bill, don't be lazy I'm sure i've put more ignorant posts on here than that. And to back up my statement, go ask anybody with a seeing eye dog or any military personal in combat what they think of the FT retrievers talents and their value in comparison to their dog.
> 
> /Paul


I am too lazy to dig any deeper. Surprised it took you a year to respond to this one...;-)

This is the part of your quote I found crazy... "FT only test one aspect of a retrievers talents and frankly pretty useless ones at that."

I actually agree with the first part of your statement I quoted back then... And don't disagree too much about some of the other kinds of dogs such as military or service dogs... 

But, throw those dogs out in the middle of an all age stake without the training and they would be lost too...


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

I have to agree with Evan. There are lots of great dogs.


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

Marvin S. I am a nobody but thanks for the candid opinion on LM. If you saw him run and didn't like what you saw it doesn't take away from his accomplishments. I like to watch some dogs more that others myself. It's poetry in motion. Like Michael Jordan.


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## Camo9244 (Jan 15, 2015)

I noticed while looking through pedigree's that all of the great dogs of today and yesterday all date back to one common Sire. Super Chief. I would love to hear more from folks in "The Know"


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

And if you kept digging every time you see Super Chief you would see Paha Sapa Chief, then Feehaven Muscles, then Grangemead Precocious who is also in the pedigree of Soupy's mother Ironwood Cherokee Chica. You then might also notice that quite a few great dogs of the 50s, 60s, and 70s were crosses of Cork of Oakwood Lane and Paha Sapa Chief and then crosses of their offspring, and so it goes.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

EdA said:


> And if you kept digging every time you see Super Chief you would see Paha Sapa Chief, then Feehaven Muscles, then Grangemead Precocious who is also in the pedigree of Soupy's mother Ironwood Cherokee Chica. You then might also notice that quite a few great dogs of the 50s, 60s, and 70s were crosses of Cork of Oakwood Lane and Paha Sapa Chief and then crosses of their offspring, and so it goes.


Some of the best.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

We are all cousins at some point! HPW


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