# sit at a distance



## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Hello I am brand new to RTF and am hoping someone out there has some advice I have a 1yr 4 month english lab and I am trying to train him myself he does good with basic obediance and now we are moving on to more advanced stuff he will stay in all three positions and has a good recall waits to be sent to retrieve now i want to start handeling him on blinds but i can't get him to sit at a distance i am using Water Dog as a guide and can not figure how to get him to sit when he is away from me any help would be greatly appriciated


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Also I am not using an E collar or choke chain I am attempting this using only positive reinforcement


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Good luck with that


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Yell SIT!!!!!! and if he doesn't just give that little furball a clicking he won't forget.

Tennis shoe trainer regards

Bubba


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## JL82 (May 13, 2013)

Try the Chris Aiken fun drill. Say hup hup act like u throw the bumper the dog will leave out he'll stop to hunt after a few feet blow ur whistle get his attention then give a sit whistle. If he don't sit just go to him sit him back off a few feet say hup hup . and throw him the bumper. Teaches sit at a distance and to look at u after sitting which you'll obviously need for casting.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Since you're new. The first two guys aren't being jerks. It's just on a regular basis we get well intentioned people who want to do advanced work using only positive reinforcement. It won't work to a very large degree. It's been discussed a lot on here.

If you still decide to go that route, good luck and if you get the results you want and you're happy that's all that matters. 

Also Water Dog is a bit dated and there are more up to date programs. It can get you to a certain point, just not that easily. You've got a long ways before your pup is ready for blinds. Google total retriever training and look at his training chart. It might surprise you. 

Welcome and have fun training!


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Thanks JL82 Ill try that


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## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes you can! I have and so have many others. PM sent


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

thanks Pas Bon I got your PM I will try that being new I didn't have enough posts to send a pm back to you


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Does he sit in heel drill
/Paul


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Yes he sits on command from heel if that is what you mean i was thinking of going long line around a tree and doing sit drills him in the same position and me increasing distance


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

jaserelijah said:


> Also I am not using an E collar or choke chain I am attempting this using only positive reinforcement


Perhaps "clicker" training! Just had to laugh, e collar is there for a reason!


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

He sits on command when in heel if that is what you mean I was thinking of using a tieout and doing sit over and over increasing my distance so he can't get to the spot


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Can he sit at heel with whistle only? Can you keep walking?


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Backwater I don't use the E collar because I don't think my dog requires that level of correction but it seems that most people here have bought the myth that the E collar is the only way I think it is a way for pro trainers to make more money by training more dogs and they perpetuate the myth so people who spend big money on dogs don't question the training method. If the E collar is the only way how did people train dogs before they were invented in the 70's a lot of trainers are going to a positive renforcment style training ie Milner again I'm not anti E collar just don't think its the only way


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Gun dog. I introduced the whistle this week he sits on verbal command and i can walk away and around the corner I havnt dropped the verbal with the whistle yet as i am not sure he has put it together completly


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ok ,that's fine, just getting a feel for where he's at. I would take some time and get him used to the whistle. Couple of weeks till,you feel he knows it for sure. Have you done any baseball pattern fetching with him?

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I will say, I use the collar in my training, but at this point in his training and what your asking of him, a collar is not necessary, if you can't teach this without a collar, your not a teacher

/Paul


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

jaserelijah said:


> Backwater I don't use the E collar because I don't think my dog requires that level of correction but it seems that most people here have bought the myth that the E collar is the only way I think it is a way for pro trainers to make more money by training more dogs and they perpetuate the myth so people who spend big money on dogs don't question the training method. If the E collar is the only way how did people train dogs before they were invented in the 70's a lot of trainers are going to a positive renforcment style training ie Milner again I'm not anti E collar just don't think its the only way


You obviously have not followed training and retrievers over the years. What the dogs can do now is nothing short of amazing compared to dogs of the past. The reason....e collar. If you are hell bet on not using the collar for what ever reason expect a very slow progression and achievement levels far lower than those who use the collar. Your dog, your feeding them, train as you wish, but I assure you your will be beaten badly by those who use the collar. If all you are looking for is a dog that pleases you, train with cream puffs and organic baked treats, or better yet timeouts!!!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Backwater, he hasn't stated goals other than beginning handling. What he asked for is beginning handling. If he wants ft titles, ht titles, and he's one of my clients I'd teach him how to use collars. He didn't ask for that.

/Paul


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Gun dog no I have not started doing baseball with him I know the drill and will be doing it in the future if the weather holds perhaps by next week I started extending the stay command this week and want to be sure he stays while the bumper is thrown 
Backwater my sport is Waterfowl hunting not field trials and I believe as a owner trainer who isn't worried about perfect water entries or holding perfect lines a E collar isn't needed perhaps some dogs require them mine doesn't have that personality but regardless of the method the first step is to teach the dog what you will be asking him to do you wouldn't beat your kids for not knowing how to drive a 18 speed transmission so why would you burn your dog for not sitting at distance when he doesn't know how so my original question was how do you teach this I can go to the sportsman's warehouse and buy a collar and shock him into doing what I want but that isn't teaching


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*jaserelijah

*Four bullet points ...

First off .... RTF isn't the best place to ask advice on non e-collar training; you will have to put up with incoming flak from the ill disposed before getting any worthwhile help. That shouldn't put you off, there are a number of posters who can, and will be, very useful to you. 

Second ... Going the positive reinforcement /marker route isn't merely the absence of collar training and if you are to get it right requires some study of the theory and underlying science. Water Dog is pretty old hat and doesn't address these matters, so you need to find and use some better resources. In Jim Barry's book "Positive Gundogs" there is an excellent dummies guide to Operant Conditioning and Learning Theory and an in depth exposition of them as applied via clicker; criteria, rate of behaviour, latency, and schedule of reinforcement. I recommend it to you. As in all training you need to start from point A and get to point D in the logical sequence BC, not via F (there is a lot of eff in training!);-) The Mike Lardy flow chart found at http://www.totalretriever.com/images/FlowChartDownload.pdf is chalked up for collar training but is nevertheless useful. "The Wildrose Way, Retriever Training" is also handy, but basic obedience isn't handled very well; buy it but use it as a guide for other things.

Third.... not really wanting to get involved with semantics, it's worthwhile saying that "positive only" isn't a good way of describing what non e-collar trainers are doing. A quick snap of a slip lead when reinforcing "heel" in new training areas, or a verbal "No" can't be seen as positive only. A better phrase might be "marker training" or "marker reward training" or even "mostly positive". That way you cut down on the conditioned responses from the touchline.

Fourth ... the remote sit business. Your best bet is to work with the "place" command. Although I haven't seen you and your dog together, I suspect you've got a conditioned response to "sit" that he's interpreting as "sit by me". Using the "place" command will overcome that and is demonstrated by Pat Nolan in the video below and the following page. Pat has a really nice series of Youtube snippets; again I recommend them.






Best of luck and damn the torpedos! 

Eug


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Second Pat Nolan video on sit at distance*

Here you go.....






Eug


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Jase, I have trouble following your comments. I would suggest some punctuation. Some sentences are almost 100 word long with subjects changing often.
I'm not trying to be critical but helpful.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

By the way you don't teach with an ecollar but enforce known commands. Before the ecollar came along some of the training methods were very harsh. IMHO they were more difficult on the dog than an ecollar.

It's your dog so do as you desire. And good luck and best wishes for your dog.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Bubba said:


> Yell SIT!!!!!! and if he doesn't just give that little furball a clicking he won't forget.
> 
> Tennis shoe trainer regards
> 
> Bubba


I love this response. Exciting!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *jaserelijah
> 
> *Four bullet points ...
> 
> ...


Eug Thanks for sharing those. Useful!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Just so mis information doesn't prevail concerning the e collar.
Yes you can teach using the e collar and it is almost always initially less destabilizing than conventional methods which teach first using positive methods then switching to aversives..especially with soft timid dogs
Pete


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

jaserelijah said:


> Gun dog no I have not started doing baseball with him I know the drill and will be doing it in the future if the weather holds perhaps by next week I started extending the stay command this week and want to be sure he stays while the bumper is thrown
> Backwater my sport is Waterfowl hunting not field trials and I believe as a owner trainer who isn't worried about perfect water entries or holding perfect lines a E collar isn't needed perhaps some dogs require them mine doesn't have that personality but regardless of the method the first step is to teach the dog what you will be asking him to do you wouldn't beat your kids for not knowing how to drive a 18 speed transmission so why would you burn your dog for not sitting at distance when he doesn't know how so my original question was how do you teach this I can go to the sportsman's warehouse and buy a collar and shock him into doing what I want but that isn't teaching


First learn the basic of e collars, you are not "beating" your dog. A "nick" is all it takes on many dogs and the correction is instant. So what this means for you is this....there is no way possible to make the instant corrections without the collar. So while you will possibly spends weeks training your dog with "positive" reinforcements to sit when the whistle is blown, I will have made the corrections in one setting. If dogs learned so well without the collars, I would simply have a two hour "chalk talk" with my female and she would win the nationals after one session of me just explaining on paper how this game is played. It doesn't work this way.

I fail to see how water fowling in one single bit different then a trial. I am a waterfowl hunter and have the ability to hunt in the best water fowling country in the nation. I work second shift and hunt almost every single day of the season, I compete when able. The competition training makes for one hell of a waterfowl dog. There is no difference period. Your dog will need to handle, take a good line, stop and sit on the whistle and take their cast correctly. They will also have a poison bird because many times the bird my dog sees is dead, the one she didn't see is wounded and swimming away. I demand my dogs listen and pick up the bird I say, not what they want. As in my avatar, "this ain't Burger King, you don't get it your way"

As others have posted, learning the basics of retriever training from people such as Lardy and many others would be a very good start for you. These are pros who have very happy dogs and some very impressive dogs. None by the way to my knowledge, use organic treats, cream puffs, or clickers.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

I may be reading too deeply between the lines but might suggest the OP is right. This might not be the right dog at 115lbs and 'English' to receive pressure associated with advanced training. Particularly if the typical rewards aren't as special as they might be to another dog.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jaserelijah said:


> Gun dog no I have not started doing baseball with him I know the drill and will be doing it in the future if the weather holds perhaps by next week I started extending the stay command this week and want to be sure he stays while the bumper is thrown
> Backwater my sport is Waterfowl hunting not field trials and I believe as a owner trainer who isn't worried about perfect water entries or holding perfect lines a E collar isn't needed perhaps some dogs require them mine doesn't have that personality but regardless of the method the first step is to teach the dog what you will be asking him to do you wouldn't beat your kids for not knowing how to drive a 18 speed transmission so why would you burn your dog for not sitting at distance when he doesn't know how so my original question was how do you teach this I can go to the sportsman's warehouse and buy a collar and shock him into doing what I want but that isn't teaching


Just a suggestion if you want to learn I would read study as much as possible the various programs out there, whether you agree with them or not. For the most part almost all basic programs with or without the collar are the same. Probably the major difference is Force Fetch, it is the foundation of most early training programs. The new semantics are just the more things change the more they stay the same. I trained retrievers at a field trial, hunt test and hunting level for about 20 years with what is now called the "amish way or clicker trainer or marker training or?" .I called it training my retriever. The place or platforms were used 50 years ago, have used nylon collars, long ropes, do a two person sit drill. Put two leads on a dog one at heel, the other with a rope walking behind, do a whistle sit, both leads tighten at the same time, whistle sit, whistle sit again repeat. I would start the old fashion way, the Amish way or the watchmacallit, just heel the dog around for a ten minute session, of heel, walk a few paces, whistle sit, pull up on the lead then give dog a second whistle sit, do this for many weeks every chance you get, sit command, whistle sit, whistle sit, leave dog on a rope about 20 feet, let the dog walk around in a fairly enclosed area, blow a whistle sit, and if the dog doesn't comply use your rope as a handle, take the dog back to the EXACT spot on non-compliance, sit command voice, whistle sit command again leave the dog there for a few minutes. Dog goes into kennel or in the house sit command, whistle sit. You can do the same thing with a crate at a distance for place or kennel, send dog stop dog on whistle, cast dog into the crate of platform, etc. None of this is original, done many years ago, by James Lamb Free and Mr Wolters (who was a frustrated field trialer by the way) Bill Tyrant (who had a AFC) even though he discounted field trials in general, etc etc. BUT don't get defensive in this game and take all advice with a open mind, discard what you don't want to hear and use what you can. You will realize I hope, there are a variety of different levels of folks on this forum most are "well read or DVD'd" and many do have hands on experience, many are hunters too, including myself.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

jaserelijah said:


> Backwater I don't use the E collar because I don't think my dog requires that level of correction but it seems that most people here have bought the myth that the E collar is the only way I think it is a way for pro trainers to make more money by training more dogs and they perpetuate the myth so people who spend big money on dogs don't question the training method. If the E collar is the only way how did people train dogs before they were invented in the 70's a lot of trainers are going to a positive renforcment style training ie Milner again I'm not anti E collar just don't think its the only way


Wow dude, making friend already huh? Back in the day they used to shoot dogs in the butt with rock salt or bird shot to drive them back on retrieves before e collars came along. I know I'd rather get a e collar nick than get shot in the butt.

The e collar when properly used is just basically an invisible leash from you to the dog. You can communicate to the dog within a milisecond that it made the wrong choice when FIDO is 200 yards away. At 200 yards or even 100 yards your dog ain't gonna hear a clicker. 

Every dog is different and you use different intensity for which ever dog needs it. I know of a lab that has blown off a 6 out of 6 on a Tri Tronics collar and I work with a guy that has his english setter's Dogtra collar set at 5 out of 100 because she's a soft dog.


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## brandon a (Sep 9, 2013)

Socks said:


> Wow dude, making friend already huh? Back in the day they used to shoot dogs in the butt with rock salt or bird shot to drive them back on retrieves before e collars came along. I know I'd rather get a e collar nick than get shot in the butt.
> 
> The e collar when properly used is just basically an invisible leash from you to the dog. You can communicate to the dog within a milisecond that it made the wrong choice when FIDO is 200 yards away. At 200 yards or even 100 yards your dog ain't gonna hear a clicker.
> 
> Every dog is different and you use different intensity for which ever dog needs it. I know of a lab that has blown off a 6 out of 6 on a Tri Tronics collar and I work with a guy that has his english setter's Dogtra collar set at 5 out of 100 because she's a soft dog.



I use the garmin collar and on a level 4 out of 18, I can barely feel it on my hand... it is enough to let my dog know he needs to listen. Highest I have ever taken him is a 13 which is his threshold.
I did a 13 on my hand, it def didn't feel good, but it didn't really bring a tear to my eye either.


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

HNTFSH said:


> I may be reading too deeply between the lines but might suggest the OP is right. This might not be the right dog at 115lbs and 'English' to receive pressure associated with advanced training. Particularly if the typical rewards aren't as special as they might be to another dog.


Agreed. Perhaps some organic danish muffins after the click! I sure would sit for a nice danish muffin!


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Thanks Eug for the Info. Again I am not anti E collar I have no plans to compete with this dog. maybe further down the road I might find the need for the collar but for now I don't. Regardless of the tools being used the first step it to teach the drill to the dog. My unwillingness to put a collar on my dog is my choice. I am not attacking your training methods, they get results and if I were wanting to compete I would most likely be doing the same thing. With that being said he is my dog my money bought him and it is my time training him. I get 100 days a year to hunt and 265 to train prior to opening day I think I can do it without the collar or perhaps I just want to try. Backwater you are right a comp dog will be a good hunting dog. as where a strictly hunting dog probably will never come close to a win. I have stated I have no desire to compete with this dog so running the bank to swim the shortest distance instead of making a leaping entry to swim 100 yds isn't something I am concerned with. The Cream puffs, organic treats, time outs and other comments only show a lack of intelligence. you drank the kool aide I cant help you there. If you want to offer any training exercises I will gladly try them. If you only want to argue I can do that too. If you were the type that enjoyed learning about training and trying different things maybe you could look at my experiment as an opportunity see if what you believe is true. would your dog beat Milners he has a clicker I do not


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Earl great info this is what I am attempting I don't follow wolters to a t his book is cheap and I am familiar with the drills also it is pretty easy to follow I welcome all types of training advice except put a collar on him I am attempting to get similar results as those who use the collar without it as an experiment and opportunity to learn the hard way I guess its like using a tack hammer to drive a t post the sledge is faster but the journey isn't as interesting


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Maybe I should take some time to clarify what I am doing. I hunt with a group of guys from church. Myself and two others have dogs. They are training with an E collar, I have chosen not to in order to see if it is possible to get the same results. Also I am interested in learning more about how dogs learn. I have my theories as to why the E collar is so widely accepted as the only way to train and in the interest of educating myself I am attempting this experiment. I am happy with my dog now I shoot birds he gets them and brings them to me. I joined this forum to learn how others train and try and incorporate some new things into my training I am willing to share any information with anyone how we did drills and if it worked that is all I am trying to do.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Are you opposed to using a long check cord?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Pete you are a much better trainer than me. But here is a quote from Mike Lardy:
"If you haven't taught your dog basic obedience, he's not ready for collar conditioning. Never use the collar to teach commands; use it to enforce only what has already been taught."
Page 15 Vol 1 of Larry's Training Articles.
Perhaps you could discuss this with Mike.


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## Handler in Training (Jun 18, 2013)

jaserelijah said:


> Backwater I don't use the E collar because I don't think my dog requires that level of correction but it seems that most people here have bought the myth that the E collar is the only way* I think it is a way for pro trainers to make more money by training more dogs and they perpetuate the myth so people who spend big money on dogs don't question the training method*. If the E collar is the only way how did people train dogs before they were invented in the 70's a lot of trainers are going to a positive renforcment style training ie Milner again I'm not anti E collar just don't think its the only way


Quite a presumptuous statement and extremely misinformed. Maybe this isn't the only way to interpret this comment, but it comes across as very anti-E collar!!! Which, makes the next quote that I bolded seem pretty hypocritical.



jaserelijah said:


> Thanks Eug for the Info. *Again I am not anti E collar I have no plans to compete with this dog. maybe further down the road I might find the need for the collar but for now I don't.* Regardless of the tools being used the first step it to teach the drill to the dog. My unwillingness to put a collar on my dog is my choice. I am not attacking your training methods, they get results and if I were wanting to compete I would most likely be doing the same thing. With that being said he is my dog my money bought him and it is my time training him. I get 100 days a year to hunt and 265 to train prior to opening day I think I can do it without the collar or perhaps I just want to try. Backwater you are right a comp dog will be a good hunting dog. as where a strictly hunting dog probably will never come close to a win. I have stated I have no desire to compete with this dog so running the bank to swim the shortest distance instead of making a leaping entry to swim 100 yds isn't something I am concerned with. The Cream puffs, organic treats, time outs and other comments only show a lack of intelligence. you drank the kool aide I cant help you there. If you want to offer any training exercises I will gladly try them. If you only want to argue I can do that too. If you were the type that enjoyed learning about training and trying different things maybe you could look at my experiment as an opportunity see if what you believe is true. would your dog beat Milners he has a clicker I do not





jaserelijah said:


> Maybe I should take some time to clarify what I am doing. I hunt with a group of guys from church. Myself and two others have dogs. They are training with an E collar,* I have chosen not to in order to see if it is possible to get the same results*. Also I am interested in learning more about how dogs learn. I have my theories as to why the E collar is so widely accepted as the only way to train and in the interest of educating myself I am attempting this experiment. I am happy with my dog now I shoot birds he gets them and brings them to me. I joined this forum to learn how others train and try and incorporate some new things into my training I am willing to share any information with anyone how we did drills and if it worked that is all I am trying to do.


You might be able to get the same results as them. Don't know how good of a trainer they are or you are. If all things are equal in ability (dog, trainer, etc.) you will not get the same results. I have trained dogs before that I was very happy with, without using an ecollar. Everything took longer to get to the same point in training and none of those dogs were anywhere close to as finished of a product as I have now (trained with ecollar).

It has already been said. This is your dog and you can train it however you want. Have fun and good luck. You probably rubbed some people the wrong way with the top statement that I bolded.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

http://www.dogtrainersworkshop.com/must-reads/how-dogs-learn/

You might find this and some of the other articles and videos on this site interesting and useful. Connie is an excellent trainer and teacher. Most of her articles are obedience oriented, but the training concepts and how dogs learn are the same no matter what you are trying to teach. If you have a dog that wants to work, all you need is a lead, a whistle, consistent training, and some patience.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

jaserelijah said:


> Maybe I should take some time to clarify what I am doing. I hunt with a group of guys from church. Myself and two others have dogs. They are training with an E collar, I have chosen not to in order to see if it is possible to get the same results. Also I am interested in learning more about how dogs learn. I have my theories as to why the E collar is so widely accepted as the only way to train and in the interest of educating myself I am attempting this experiment. I am happy with my dog now I shoot birds he gets them and brings them to me. I joined this forum to learn how others train and try and incorporate some new things into my training I am willing to share any information with anyone how we did drills and if it worked that is all I am trying to do.


Here's the issue I have with your thinking. First you used the word myth (repeatedly) relative to collar use some posts ago as if your audience here were sheep under the evil spell of some 'Pro's and moreover asserted these minions believe there is only ONE way to train. For a guy that's read 'Waterdog' as his basis, that seems mighty arrogant. And Naive. 


Now you're experimenting. But earlier said your dog wasn't a candidate for this type of pressure. It's not really an experimental if you feel you ain't got a choice. And you may not, but then again, you couldn't know that. 

You clearly admonished the collar in your other post and the people who have demonstrated their value (in any venue) and who have likely also trained a bit of Amish. 

Personally not many would care how you train but what you accomplish. 

Just be straight in your responses. Maybe it's me but you seem to be waffling about your 'strong feeling'.


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Eric the first statement you put in bold is the opinion that has formed the hypotheses for my experiment stating that I am not anti collar isn't hypocritical it is informing all that I don't have a problem with training tools but the utter reliance on a particular tool is akin to building cabinets with a chain saw it will work but perhaps there is a different way that is more pleasing Mr Milner abandoned the e collar and found he was able to train dogs in a third of the time I am not saying he and I are in the same league were not even in the same universe when it comes to training but he is really good and he is now using the techniques i wish to try maybe its my nature to rock the boat and go against what is popular but i think i can train a dog to a high level without using the collar


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Pete you are a much better trainer than me. But here is a quote from Mike Lardy:
> "If you haven't taught your dog basic obedience, he's not ready for collar conditioning. Never use the collar to teach commands; use it to enforce only what has already been taught."
> Page 15 Vol 1 of Larry's Training Articles.
> Perhaps you could discuss this with Mike.


No need to discuss it with Mike, you or anyone else Wayne. 

Pete is right. 

Mike and many thousands of others have obviously been successful using the "enforce don't teach" method. They are right also.

There's no right or wrong answer to this one. Both methods are effective now that we have micro adjustable e-collars that can be used at very low levels. 

Like so many things in dog training (and life), there is more than one path to success and those who are on one path would do well not to simply dismiss those on another without fully understanding what's going on.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pete you are a much better trainer than me. But here is a quote from Mike Lardy:
> "If you haven't taught your dog basic obedience, he's not ready for collar conditioning. Never use the collar to teach commands; use it to enforce only what has already been taught."
> Page 15 Vol 1 of Larry's Training Articles.
> Perhaps you could discuss this with Mike.


I don't know about that Wayne,,, I have enough short comings to go around. Mike just doesn't have time to learn everything. Thats not a knock by any means ,He is among the best FT trainers . Field trialers do things a certain way and when it works for them they have no reason to change or fiddle with something new. they are on the clock too.
Thats all,,,, I discovered it out of desperation and well being. I was forced to find a better way to deal with a certain type of dog. Then I just incorporated it in hunting dogs

Pete


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

jaserelijah said:


> ... Mr Milner abandoned the e collar and found he was able to train dogs in a third of the time I am not saying he and I are in the same league were not even in the same universe when it comes to training but he is really good and he is now using the techniques i wish to try maybe its my nature to rock the boat and go against what is popular but i think i can train a dog to a high level without using the collar


Most people here are open minded about those who choose not to train with the e collar but a lot of your rationale sounds like you're parroting the propaganda certain trainers use to peddle their English gentlemen Labs for exhorbitant prices along with the fiction that they're so much better than those hyper American field trial labs and in fact pop out of the womb retrieving to hand and do not need to be force fetched.

It's not so much using or not using the collar; any decent sequential program should get you the results you desire. But you'll get more help off this site if you can lay off the trashing of e collar use. One example: I have one big Chesapeake that I bred and got back as a 5 yr. old; he'd had some heavy-handed training before I got him back. Despite that, he responds very well to use of the collar and in fact, gets far more upset if I get in his face and growl "NO!" at him. The mild nick is, with him, a less upsetting and better timed correction for disobeying commands such as a whistle sit.

I, like many others, do not teach the whistle sit with an e collar. I teach much as you have done, with the dog at heel and first training it to sit on the whistle. When it does that well, I will do the moving sit, where I blow the sit whistle and walk off. If he tries to follow me, I march him back to where he broke and say "Sit". Usually only takes a few tries before he'll sit as I move off. I then step up the pace til he'll sit on the whistle from a jog, then a run and stay put when I run off. Most of them want to run to you and sit at heel when you first teach the whistle sit; doing the moving sit first is a good way for them to learn that sit whistle means plant your butt where you are. Pat Nolan, who did the videos Col. Blimp posted, has one of the best whistle sit articles I've ever read. Even though he notes collar conditioning is one of the required skills before teaching it, I've done it with several dogs without, and it works fine. You can read it here


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

jaserelijah said:


> Eric the first statement you put in bold is the opinion that has formed the hypotheses for my experiment stating that I am not anti collar isn't hypocritical it is informing all that I don't have a problem with training tools but the utter reliance on a particular tool is akin to building cabinets with a chain saw it will work but perhaps there is a different way that is more pleasing Mr Milner abandoned the e collar and found he was able to train dogs in a third of the time I am not saying he and I are in the same league were not even in the same universe when it comes to training but he is really good and he is now using the techniques i wish to try maybe its my nature to rock the boat and go against what is popular but i think i can train a dog to a high level without using the collar


Have you spoken with Mr. Milner and visited his site. It might be more up your alley. There are some interesting things on his site that may be of help to you. And Eug has sent you some videos. Good luck to you!!


http://www.duckhillkennels.com/


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

I have been to duck hill kennels site there is a lot of info there i feel regardless of the type of correction or reinforcment the basic drill should be the same the training in my eyes should be the same its the behavior you are reinforcing either positive or negative that is the only difference


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

jaserelijah said:


> Hello I am brand new to RTF and am hoping someone out there has some advice I have a 1yr 4 month english lab and I am trying to train him myself he does good with basic obediance and now we are moving on to more advanced stuff he will stay in all three positions and has a good recall waits to be sent to retrieve now i want to start handeling him on blinds but i can't get him to sit at a distance i am using Water Dog as a guide and can not figure how to get him to sit when he is away from me any help would be greatly appriciated


You were doing really great, then unfortunately you dug a hole and was unable to get out....Sometimes less is more...The one thing you should learn from your thread is.....being open minded... That opens many doors....


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

true. I wasn't aware there is so much animosity towards the non E collar training. Open mindedness is something that works both ways


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

jaserelijah said:


> true. I wasn't aware there is so much animosity towards the non E collar training. Open mindedness is something that works both ways


There will always be and always will be and yes...that works both ways.


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

I believe I want what everyone else wants here to train my dog and discuss what did and didn't work as well as gain knowledge


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

jaserelijah said:


> I believe I want what everyone else wants here to train my dog and discuss what did and didn't work as well as gain knowledge


Good man...


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

jaserelijah said:


> true. I wasn't aware there is so much animosity towards the non E collar training. Open mindedness is something that works both ways


If you go back and read my post what I was trying to make you read between the lines of working on the issue of sit, you must work on it over and over again, perhaps hundreds of times before you ever take it to the field, IF you train conventionaly, without the e-collar, where with a good basics program, and the judicial use of the collar that can be done in a fraction of the time. Many on this forum know only the single way of training, using their "various programs" . It's like a recipe and if you have a good dog will work wonders, even kinda trains the dog without too much handler interference .. The problem with many that use the collar it is the perfect world recipe and when they get out of the perfect world they get in trouble. I trained what was called the tennis shoe way, Amish and to a certain extent what they call the clicker training with cues being used. Many think that program was invented by others and have put names on it. It IS nothing more then 50 , 60, years ago conventional training that those folks have put a spin on when the e-collar was not perfected yet! Like the e-collar programs others have used various modifications and now we have the , whose program are using? mostly none of it is original and can be traced to a few sources many years ago. After training the conventional way for 20 plus years and finally using what I considered barbaric methods that I don't discus , met some classic e-collar folks who were trained by a very high level pro. I got tired of working so hard the conventional way and watching others jump over me, I was dragged kicking and screaming into the e-collar program( took the quote from someone else, ha, ah). That was in 1987 after 20 plus years training the "other way". Now I will tell you their are two ways to train a reliable trained retriever, the easy way and the other way! I prefer the easy way, the e-collar way, and like one of my long time training partners says, the new programs took the "slop out of the training". BUT I do have a open mind and will give any information you need to train the "other way", I have from 1964 to 1987 experience in the Amish way or non-collar way and will share it, there is nothing new in it.


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Thank you Earl! Any information you wish to share will be greatly appreciated. A question I have is. Do you train new things in the same place or do you go to different locations and do the same drill? do you train in places that you hunt? Thanks in advance


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

jaserelijah said:


> true. I wasn't aware there is so much animosity towards the non E collar training. Open mindedness is something that works both ways



Normally there isn't any animosity toward those who chose not to use an e collar. However, if you want to get hackles up here, start talking about the superior English Lab that doesn't "need" to be trained with an e collar and doesn't need to be taught to go straight. Add in that popping is a sign of intelligence and then opine that the use of e collars means a person is cruel and doesn't know how to train dogs.


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Guess I just picked a off day to post the first few replys sure seemed to be helpfull and not in any way anti non e collar training I don't care what dog anyone has I chose mine because he was big and we get a lot of large geese turns out he is really mello and my kids like to use him as a pillow when they watch movies I think he likes it too my 8 year old gives him commands and he obeys her don't know if its the breeding or just the dog


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Here's an illustration of something similar to what I believe was sited early as one of Danny Farmer's drills. I made this one up on my own but sounded like it mimicked Farmer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRh6VKXjSRU&feature=youtu.be

This keeps the reward object in the handler's possession, promoting the dog turning and looking at him to receive it.

We start close by and you'll see that for the first couple of repetitions we walk away from the dog as opposed to trying to get her to go away from us.

Walking backward away from her is a known skill from teaching duration on the sit command and starts the drill off by showing her what game we're playing. 

We gradually build distance and later on incorporated the whistle. 

This particular dog is collar conditioned (you see the receiver on her) but we were teaching her this behavior without using the collar.

She is a very soft temperament and hadn't been through FF yet when we did this work.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Going to call it conventional training (no e collar) for a better lack of words. You must do extensive obedience training on and off lead, have the whistle at all times when you work your obedience. If you use a pea whistle don't blow your brains out blowing close to the dog, a soft tweet is all you need close. The reason , once you get to the field you will need a lot of whistle to get the dog's attention, if you continue to blow it very loud close it becomes background noise to the dog and they ignore it. Learned this from a man called Cliff Wallace (Dual Champion Shed of Arden fame) I was his kennel boy in the early 60's. That's how old this stuff is back to the early 1940's. The dog must NEVER disobey a whistle again . A refusal in the yard is dealt with a bring the dog back to the exact spot, blow a tweet and tell the dog to sit, for a minute or so.
I would also suggest you attend some obedience classes, just for the socialization, and the hands on demos. I put some Open CDX's and worked through utility obedience when I was training the conventional way.
A warning I had Goldens then they liked obedience and were flashy. The Labs not so much so that is the down side when doing a lot of obedience. You have to keep the spirit up, tennis balls are great for retrieves, but, don't over do it. Darrin is right on with his information so I would follow what he describes for teaching a dog to handle. If your serious there are others here that will get you started..Now you have got something to work with for training. Remember many of the Pros including Mike Lardy got their start in the conventional training mode or model! They like me found a better way in building a mousetrap in the e-collar. If your serious stay with your training, BUT, don't try to prove a point with the e-collar folks that you hunt with or that are on this forum, you will lose! Go train your dog.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

I know a couple of very fine Amish trainers. Nice dogs. Test, not trial, and plenty of upland and waterfowl hunting.

That said, both enforce corrections, utilize pressure and thoroughly understand conditioning. Both also completely understand the collar. Each has trained several nice dogs. Each bought the breeding for the job.

Know it's been said but there are many factors to training a good Fido. It's less about the tools and more about the other stuff.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

This thread went pretty much the way I thought it would. Where's my video telling me which button to push. Get outside with a leash and do some hands on training


/Paul


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

I really appreciate the help. I worked with Takoda using the things that some of you sent. What seemed to work really well was. Incorporating the heel drill and walking away with calling him to me and giving the verbal sit along with the whistle and at the same time stepping forward to meet him. He sat 2nd try we are now at a fairly reliable sit a little slow at distances of about 20 feet I know its not much but its a start thanks again for all of the great pointers


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> This thread went pretty much the way I thought it would. Where's my video telling me which button to push. Get outside with a leash and do some hands on training
> 
> 
> /Paul


 Too be clear Paul, are you actually suggesting someone who wants to learn how to train and read their individual dog should step away from the computer and actually work hands on with their individual dog???
Little bit of a revolutionary idea there; I thought in the information age we could live, love, learn & do everything online


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Ok, you've got a start on remote sit and want to train "mostly positive". What's in it for Takoda? 

Eug


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Too be clear Paul, are you actually suggesting someone who wants to learn how to train and read their individual dog should step away from the computer and actually work hands on with their individual dog???
> Little bit of a revolutionary idea there; I thought in the information age we could live, love, learn & do everything online


 Revolutionary thinking I know but I'm unique that way...

/Paul


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

that's a Great question Colonel! I'm not sure if your trying to wind me up or to get me to think. I would imagine the reward is what's in it for him now I don't think he has the mental capacity to think about why we are doing this. Again that was a really great question it got me thinking how do I transition the reward that he is working for into the work that he is doing time for a modified bumpers and baseball drill perhaps.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

No not a wind up, deadly, deadly serious. 

When you elect to go down the "mostly positive" route you have to think it through and as I suggested previously, make a study of the science underlying it; that's why I recommended Jim's book as a toe dipper. I repeat, the absence of aversives does not imply the presence of positives. Just leaving the collar and FF behind you won't make you a "positive" trainer, so that's why I posed the question. So when you say "I don't think he has the mental capacity to think about why we are doing this" you are dead right; it means precisely bugger all to him and he has little reason to perform the behaviour consistently well. 

My friend Jeff Boston uses a phrase that is on the face of it simple to the point of being trite, but is actually very profound ... "Dogs do what works for them". If you teach Takoda a new behaviour, to reinforce it and make him want to comply with enthusiasm and precision you need to give him a good reason for doing so. How you do that is up to you; I'm not going to be prescriptive, but suffice to say *Darrin* and *Criquetpas* have given good advice.

I have a rather "forensic" sort of personality and come from a science background. I like to think things through, plan, measure, record and review; in going the (I'm getting sick of this bleeding phrase :sad "mostly positive route" I've found that approach to be really useful. This isn't a simple thing you are doing, it's bloody complex and needs to be worked at.

Again a few bullet points...

. Get a flow chart and adapt it to your dog and your methodology. (Lardy)
. Find out what positive reinforcement really means and how it's applied. (Jims book)
. Get the Wildrose DVD and use it as a guide not a Bible.
. Buy "Training the Sporting dog" from the American Hunting Dog Club. Very well laid out training structure plus a review section for the handlers performance, not just the dog's.
. Knock off letting the children give commands; he's your dog and he must see you as a leader. 

Sorry if this sounds a bit preachy but you haven't paid anything for it!!!

Eug


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Eug I agree the term "mostly positive" is getting old and it is wrong. That was my ignorance. I think I will call it what it is Operant training. I read a lot last night about this and once I wrapped my brain around the positive reinforcement, positive punishment, negative reinforcement, negative punishment idea and what that meant I realized I know nothing. I have the total retriever flow chart. And some new drills that some were gracious enough to share with me. Thank you for the help any insight you have will be gladly welcomed I've come to the conclusion that I am training myself as much if not more than training Takoda


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

jaserelijah, from what I've seen it isn't animosity toward non e collar trainers or e collar trainers. It is animosity towards those who are absolutely sure they are right and anyway but their way is wrong.


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Just a question are there obedience tests for labs? I would like to find an obedience test for my lab or at least the criteria for that test.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

Yes. It is for all breeds. Just look it up on AKC.org.


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

You can compete in obedience with any breed


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

I saw the obedience for all breeds on the akc website. I guess a better question is what do those of you who compete in field trials and hunt test consider to be obedience. I know heel stay sit and down is there anything that can be incorporated now that will be helpful later. Having never seen a field trial or a hunt test I don't know how they work or what is needed obedience wise


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Competitive obedience is terrific fun. Hunting dogs can compete with great benefits for them and the handlers. In "Training The Sporting Dog" each stage including the obedience tasks has a self-check list that you would find helpful (and challenging!). Another very salutary thing to do is set up a video camera and record yourself and Takoda together going through your paces. Many inexpensive cameras have a movie function thats good enough for the job. I guarantee you'll cringe at the first few run throughs. 

The obedience tasks for hunting dogs are "sit" (which means sit and stay), "heel" and "recall"; they are the basic building blocks of all training. They have to be in place not only so that we can physically direct and control the dog, but also make the dog concentrate on the handler. Some of the other things we want our dogs to do "obediently" are related to handling and casting, delivery to hand, and lining. Because casting at distance is remote from the handler our degree of control erodes, so we need to build up in baby steps getting a high compliance rate at each stage. Lining and delivery position are easy to deal with because the dog is close to us. All the obedience tasks and commands given in the field need to be cued by voice, whistle, and hand / arm signal. 

There are a number of tasks specific to different hunting situations or styles that we have to teach and then reinforce get a reliable performance. Getting in and out of boats and vehicles, crossing obstacles (or getting under or through them) sitting to shot and flush, and honouring are typical for retrievers; Spaniels and pointer / setters have an extra suite. Individual handlers will also have their own specific ideas and requirements. Ferinstance I teach mine to jump up on to their hound benches so I can more easily inspect them for burrs, cuts and stuff after a day afield; "leave it" when I have a number of dead birds by me; and "sit" with a quiet verbal hiss. 

Just by way of encouragement have a look at (and learn from) this clip of a retriever in the intermediate stage of heel work. All positive reinforced with a slip lead as insurance. Note first the dog focussing on the handler, and the handlers own body language and variation of pace and direction. That field has a good bit of rabbit scent on it so there is a bit of distraction, but the next stage is to move to different spots including an enclosed area with rabbits and domestic fowl running about. 






Eug


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

Thanks Eug again you are more than helpful. I worked Takoda on heel and remote sit yesterday and used the slip lead. Today he has a cough. I didn't jerk him but he bolted once and hit the end of the lead pretty hard. It didn't seem to bother him then. This is the second time he has had a cough following a hard pull at the end of the lead. The first time he got tangled and pulled hard while on a tie out wearing his normal everyday collar. Have any of you had experience with this? When I looked it up it sounded like tracheal collapse If that's the case I would imagine a slip lead isn't correct for him. Thanks again


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

I don't use a slip lead in the way you do.

I have it stopped up behind the ears, but don't use it as a resraint. Look at the first few seconds of the video to see how it should be held in your hands, ready to give a smart sideways tap as a correction. The correction is to tell the dog he's in the wrong position and must get back into it, not to pull him back. Simply pulling the dog around won't teach him anything very much.

Tieing a dog out I regard as poor practise. It teaches nothing to the dog and asks nothing of him. 

Eug


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

I agree about tying out mine was tied when we were staying overnight and the hotel would not allow dogs inside he took off after something but the lead caught under the tire of the truck. yesterday I had the lead high above the level of the everyday collar he broke to play with my daughters beagle and both him and I received a jolt. this being the second time he is coughing I am thinking it is associated with the jolt. on a lighter note Is that your dog in the video? I notice your location is wales I believe my family originated there on my fathers side


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

jaserelijah said:


> I agree about tying out mine was tied when we were staying overnight and the hotel would not allow dogs inside he took off after something but the lead caught under the tire of the truck. yesterday I had the lead high above the level of the everyday collar he broke to play with my daughters beagle and both him and I received a jolt. this being the second time he is coughing I am thinking it is associated with the jolt. on a lighter note Is that your dog in the video? I notice your location is wales I believe my family originated there on my fathers side


.
with every post you make the more irritated I get. 
3 questions.
You actually tied your dog onto your vehicle to stay outside over night at a hotel?
Have you graduated high school?
How many broke refigerators are on your front porch?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Breck, Read Proverbs 12:10.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Breck said:


> .
> with every post you make the more irritated I get.
> 3 questions.
> You actually tied your dog onto your vehicle to stay outside over night at a hotel??........


we may be being trolled here
I feel there is now way a person who does not want to use an e-collar, 
and is "positive" is going to tie a dog to a truck outside overnight in a hotel lot.
seems to know all the right buttons to push here.
sorry if I am wrong, but this all just reads wrong.
somebody is having fun with us all.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Ken, I thought I smelled a troll on page one. The only thing left on the first couple posts was "silver". At any rate I know little about positive only training, clickers or slip leads so I refrained on weighing in. 
Don


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Ken you may be right but I think it was an assumption that the dog was staked out all night.


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

As much as I'd like to believe these are trolling posts...me thinks they aren't.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Ken Bora said:


> we may be being trolled here
> I feel there is now way a person who does not want to use an e-collar,
> and is "positive" is going to tie a dog to a truck outside overnight in a hotel lot.
> seems to know all the right buttons to push here.
> ...


Many fortunes have been made by people whose credo was "Never Underestimate the Ignorance of the Public


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

No not trolling. When the dog was tied out we were moving back from Illinois, with our horses and had no place to put our horses for the night. Usually the horses went to a boarding stable and if the dogs weren't allowed in the hotel they went in the trailer for the night. This particular night there was no stable and the hotel absolutely would not allow the dogs inside. Choices were made and my kids took precedence they couldn't be in the truck any more.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Well the assumption was confirmed as true. I guess the only thing I can add is:who would try to steal a 115 lb. dog? LOL!


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## jaserelijah (Jan 8, 2014)

I am not some sort of super trainer, heck I am not a trainer at all. I am a duck hunter who wants to train my dog. As I have previously stated my hunting partners are training their dogs with an E collar. I chose not to to see if the same level of training can be reached without it. also because I believe my dog doesn't require that level of correction. Apparently most know the results will be the same so you tell me to use the collar. I asked a question to see if anyone else has had a dog cough after being jolted at the end of the lead and I thank those of you who answered my question most just went P.E.T.A and couldn't believe someone would tie a dog out. some of you have been really helpful and I appreciate it immensely others are worse than the P.E.T.A nut jobs that don't want anyone owning dogs. It must be nice to travel around in a rv with your dog and never have to worry about where they are going to sleep or if the temperature is going to be ideal for them but I'm not retired yet.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Well the assumption was confirmed as true. I guess the only thing I can add is:who would try to steal a 115 lb. dog? LOL!



folks steal bait dogs every day......









.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

jaserelijah said:


> ..... I thank those of you who answered my question most just went P.E.T.A and couldn't believe someone would tie a dog out. ......


I work Chesapeake Bay Retrievers off of a chain gang, you know not what you speak.
it is the running to the end of the chain "jolt" I smuckered up on.
use this, it is more safe than what you say are doing.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

jaserelijah said:


> .... I'm not retired yet.


not that many of us are so we plan out our trips, call ahead, find places that are dog friendly.
Heck, I would have tied out the horse.


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