# Silver Labs?



## Jeffrey Towler

Open Letter to The Kennel Club (U.K.)

Posted on January 8, 2014	by Jack Vanderwyk 


The Kennel Club
Attn governance

Copy to: the Labrador Breed Council; the Labrador Clubs in the United Kingdom

Dear Board members of The Kennel club,

The Kennel Club maintains the studbook of the Labrador Retriever and has the task of ensuring that only purebred Labradors are registered in the studbook .
In that respect, it seems that the registry of the Labrador Retriever is about to go wrong, or has already gone wrong. This concerns not only me, but also the Labrador Clubs in the United Kingdom and abroad.

The cause of these concerns lies in the fact that more and more dogs are imported from the United States, with pedigree certificates from the American Kennel Club (AKC), which state that the dogs are Labrador Retrievers with the colours black, yellow or chocolate, while in reality these are dogs that are carriers of the so-called “dilute” (dd) gene. The dd gene is characterized by a “diluted” coat colour and light eyes, which are called “charcoal” or “blue” if the base colour is black, “champagne” if the base colour is yellow, and “silver” if the base colour is chocolate. In particular, the “silvers” are becoming more and more popular with the general public and substantial amounts of money are paid for puppies and adult dogs.

On first sight it seems that there is nothing to worry about these practices, because these dogs are imported with the recognized colours on their pedigree certificates, and as such they can formally be entered in the Kennel Club studbook. However, the duties of the Kennel Club as keeper of the studbook surpass that of formally administrator. One can not pretend that nothing is wrong, only because of the fact that the paperwork looks okay.

The fact is that the “dilute” (dd) gene or locus is alien to the Labrador Retriever breed. This gene is simply not present in the breed as we know it. In order to keep the studbook closed, and maintain the purity of the Labrador Retriever breed, the Kennel Club should ensure that no genes alien to the breed are entering the breed. Covert operations like opening a closed studbook in a sneaky way is not what the public expects from a respectable organization like the Kennel Club.

In the United Kingdom it was never possible to register dogs with the “dilute” (dd) gene as Labrador Retrievers. Until recently. The “dilute” (dd) gene surfaced in the United States in the late forties and early fifties of the last century. In those years there were no DNA tests available, and unfortunately these dogs were registered as Labrador Retrievers. The breeder who produced these dogs, Mayo Kellogg from Kellogg Kennels, was an important customer of the American Kennel Club (AKC). Kellogg bred several breeds, including the Weimaraner, a breed which carries the “dilute” (dd), and the dogs often ran free. Initially these dogs were registered as “silver”, until the Labrador Retriever Club Inc. (LRC), the parent club of the American Labrador Retriever clubs, objected against these practices. From that moment the “dilute” (dd) dogs were registered with the recognized three coat colours of the Labrador Retriever.

More than half a century later we sadly have to observe that the American studbook of the Labrador Retriever, as maintained by the American Kennel Club (AKC), contains more than 35,000 dogs that carry the “dilute” (dd) gene. Not all carriers are also phenotypically affected. However, these dogs that only carry the gene are passing it on to their offspring. This means that we simply can not be satisfied with a phenotypical (” by eye”) check, let alone by simply looking at an AKC pedigree certificate. Genetic research of these dogs by means of DNA tests will need to take place to make sure that the stud book stays closed. Any presence of the “dilute” (dd) genes in the Labrador Retriever is unacceptable.

Three renowned genetic laboratories, Vetgen, Laboklin, and the Van Haeringen Group, have confirmed to me in writing that it is perfectly possible to show the presence of the “dilute” (dd) gene. These studies have already been developed and can be used today. The costs are about 50 pounds.

Now science has progressed, it can be shown that the DNA of a dog contains genes which are alien to the Labrador Retriever breed, which means that such a dog CAN NOT be a purebred Labrador Retriever. Kennel Clubs, including the AKC, are increasingly under fire because of these extremely bad and dangerous developments, which need to stop here and now. It’s only a matter of time before the first lawsuit in the United States against the American Kennel Club appears, as the AKC in their pedigree certificates quite wrongfully gives the impression that these “dilutes” are purebred Labrador Retrievers. If the National Kennel Clubs are not willing or able to effectively guarantee or monitor the purity of a dog, then who is? And what is the value of a pedigree certificate?

The National Kennel Clubs have the means to prevent non-purebred dogs to enter the studbooks. If in doubt about the presence of the “dilute” (dd) gene in Labrador Retrievers, one should require the applicant of a pedigree certificate to proof that this particular dog or litter is free from the “dilute” (dd) gene, by means of DNA testing by accredited laboratories.
I would like to ask the Board of the Kennel Club to require that any Labrador Retriever that is imported in the United Kingdom has to show the results of a DNA test proving that the dog is free from the “dilute” (dd) gene. This should also apply to any Labrador Retriever when there are doubts about the purity, regarding the presence of the “dilute” (dd) gene.

Finally, I would like to ask the Board of the Kennel Club to look into the practices of registering “dilutes” with the remark “Colour Not Recognized”. Although these practices might seem to be effective, they are not. Breeders and owners of “dilutes” are clever enough to register their dogs with the recognized colours black, yellow and chocolate, and some Kennel Clubs, like the AKC, willfully cooperate with these frauds. A “silver” Labrador is not a chocolate Labrador, a “charcoal” Labrador is not a black Labrador, and a “champagne” Labrador is not a yellow Labrador, not even when a foreign Kennel Club has registered the dog as such. They are simply not purebred Labradors. The task of the Kennel Club is to guard the purity of the breed. This is a very serious task .Should it turn out that the Kennel Club is not willing to take this task seriously (enough), then there is always the possibility to let the Courts decide about these issues.

Yours sincerely,

Jack Vanderwyk


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## Brady Davis

http://notosilverlabs.wordpress.com

science does not support silver labs and it's a dangerous road to go down in my opinion. Black, yellow, chocolate. Period. Interesting link above to read.


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## DRAKEHAVEN

Pow........right in the kisser !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Backwater

So where are these "Fox Red" Labradors coming from also?


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## Tony Marshall

Backwater said:


> So where are these "Fox Red" Labradors coming from also?


Read the breed standard for a yellow and you will see.


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## BJGatley

Backwater said:


> So where are these "Fox Red" Labradors coming from also?


Per AKC...they are part of the yellow color and are permissible to the breed.

Edit to post: Tony beat me to it.


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## Charles C.

Yahtzee! 10 characters


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## sick lids

35,000 dogs times minimum $30 not at all hard to figure that one out.


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## Backwater

BJGatley said:


> Per AKC...they are part of the yellow color and are permissible to the breed.
> 
> Edit to post: Tony beat me to it.


I'm confused....red is yellow??? so why can't silver be chocolate?


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## BJGatley

Backwater said:


> I'm confused....red is yellow??? so why can't silver be chocolate?


http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm

Scroll down to color...

At the end of the page is disqualifications.


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## Backwater

BJGatley said:


> http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm
> 
> Scroll down to color...
> 
> At the end of the page is disqualifications.


Thanks I read it. Still confused though between, British, Pointing, Silver, Canoe labs I just can't keep up with all the modern designs coming these days. I guess black suits me just fine!


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## Renee P.

Backwater said:


> Thanks I read it. Still confused though between, British, Pointing, Silver, Canoe labs I just can't keep up with all the modern designs coming these days. I guess black suits me just fine!


Are you just trying to stir the pot? Fox red is not a new color, it is the original yellow color.


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## Ironman

This lengthy rebuttal is being passed around on FB. It calls into question the premise of mix breeding with weimers that this open letter is founded upon using, in part, RTF posts.


> A few recent internet blog posts have been circulating in some Labrador breeder circles that have attempted to resurrect the previously disproven claims made by another internet poster within the last decade who called herself “WigWag." WigWag believed that since the two earliest known Silver Labrador lines that she researched (Culo and Beavercreek) had a few Labs from Kellogg Kennels back in their pedigrees, that this connection was the source of the dilute gene in Labradors. She added in some convenient hearsay to try to substantiate her claim. That claim then was posted and re-posted all over the internet by Silver Labrador haters as if it were fact. The problem is, no one ever bothered to actually see if her claim could be backed up with “facts.” Below is her claim, as posted by her, followed by a narrative investigating her claims. You be the judge as to the credibility of this claim.
> 
> WigWag: "…So both Culo and Beavercreek lines can be traced directly back to Kellogg kennels which has been in existence since the 20's breeding hunting Labradors and many other retrievers and pointers and guess what? Yes Weimeraners. I know of one long timer who visited back in the 60's and said that puppies and dogs were running all over the farm and record keeping was not as strict as today so it would have been very easy for dogs to mix and breed. If a chocolate Labrador bred with a Weimeraner then her resulting all chocolate puppies would look like field type Labradors and would then be registered as Labradors. Another long timer remembers ads in Gun Dog magazine from the 50's advertising "gray Labradors" from Kellogg kennels." (In another version of this claim, she states “blue Labradors”)
> 
> In this claim against silver Labradors, Wigwas brings up "the Kellogg connection." Regardless if Kellogg had Weims or not (the present owner, H.E. Kellogg, has said he knows of none), the claim is complete speculation based on supposed hearsay from two unnamed "long timers." Contrary to the rumors silver haters have propagated, for a time, Kellogg was one of the most popular and sought after kennels for Show lines (Dual purpose) in the early to mid 1900's, their foundation Labs being European imports. Many old US show lines are backed by Kellogg Labs. It is since the mid 1900's to the present that Kellogg has bred mostly field lines (specializing in, and advertising, pointing labs since the Early 90's). One would be hard pressed to find a field bred Lab in the US today that does not have Kellogg lines behind it at some point (were this weim-Kellogg claim true, there would be silver Labs everywhere today). Using WigWag's methods of "research," one could just as easily say, "All Silver Labs go back to Sandylands dogs from the UK" and be just as accurate as the Kellogg connection, since all the silver lines do go to the famed Sandylands Kennel as well (not just the Culo and Beavercreek lines, all of them do, which actually makes for a stronger dilute gene origin theory than just the two lines discussed going back to Kellogg). If you want to keep following pedigrees of the known Silver lines, they all go back to "Buccleuch Avon," considered the very "father" of the breed! As a researcher, she should know well that in order for a claim to be even considered, she must provide the full source. Not only in this claim, but throughout her posts, she consistently neglects this. Without giving an accurate source to independently corroborate her claim, anyone could make up a story like that and say "that is how it is" and then spread it across the internet.
> 
> She introduces the idea, based on hearsay, for a Kellogg advertisement for "gray" or "blue" Labradors (she must be unsure which since she had publicly said both). This suffers from the same unnamed source problem as above, there is no way to substantiate the claim made unless one can find the actual advertisement. Even then, such an advertisement would only serve to prove that the dilute gene is an old gene in Labradors. So, let's find it, wait, what's that? Gun Dog Magazine was not in publication until 1980! It appears that in order for WigWag's claim to be true, Gun Dog Magazine would have to have published an edition 30 years before it even existed...no wonder she is having a hard time with remembering the color in the supposed ad. When this fact was recently brought to her attention, she once again changed her story to generically read “a gun dog magazine” not “Gun Dog magazine” as she claimed for nearly a decade! But it gets even more diabolical. WigWag was directly questioned about these problems in her claim, so what did she do? She went to the best "source" any researcher would use, an internet chat forum (tongue in cheek). So, in August 2010, many years after her initial claim of Kellogg breeding Weimaraners, she posted this inquiry:
> 
> "I'm doing a bit of research and looking for anyone who may have visited Kellogg kennels a ways back (40 - 50 years ago). Did they breed Pointers and Weimeraners as well as Labradors? Thank you. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58767
> 
> Her internet handle on that forum is "acandtwows" and can be verified as WigWag by some of her earlier posts, like this one: http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26275. Of course no one could corroborate her claim for her, the responses were that Kellogg only bred Labradors.
> 
> Perhaps something was missed here, but hadn't she claimed for nearly a decade to have a source for her Kellogg breeding Weims theory? Why would such a skilled researcher need something she already had? Could it be she never had it? Could it be the whole Kellogg Connection is part of a ploy to lay the blame on someone, anyone, other than the genome of breed itself for the existence of a Silver Labrador? It should be bluntly apparent that her “sources” and “facts” should be highly questioned if she cannot even do enough research to know when a publication did or did not exist; if she gets caught red-handed in an outright lie about the very premise she bases her Weimaraner corssbreeding theory on; if she adjusts her original claims once they have been disproven.
> 
> In response to the question “Where do silver Labradors come from?” she wrote:
> "Well that's an interesting question and although we will never know "for sure" we do have some facts in history and can thus form a very strong hypothesis."
> You have now seen some of her "facts" and her resulting "very strong hypothesis," even if you do not view Silver Labs favorably, you cannot deny her hypothesis is actually devoid of facts and is full of holes, to put it nicely.
> 
> Here are some facts that we do know for sure from actual documented breed history that form a much stronger hypothesis.
> Other breeds that also originate from the island of Newfoundland, and either directly descend from, or often interbred with the St. john’s Water Dog (the Labrador's progenitor), also possess the dilution gene (the Newfoundland and the Chesapeake Bay Retriever). The majority of reported outcrosses used in development of the Labrador breed also possess the dilution gene. No, the Weimaraner was not one of them, and no, the Weimaraner does not descend from the St. John’s Water Dog. It is way more likely that the dilution gene has been part of the Labrador breed genome since its inception and development than a Weimaraner ever being bred into it.
> 
> The ongoing attempts to discredit Kellogg Kennels such as is displayed in this "open letter" are deplorable attempts by individuals who desire nothing more than to lay blame and spread their hate for Silver Labradors. These attacks are an affront to the majority of Labrador Retrievers in America, whose pedigreed heritage trace to this long-standing Kennel. If your preconceptions are such as to not believe the information posted here, feel free to do your own research. There is nothing better than for people to find truth for themselves.


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## Backwater

mitty said:


> Are you just trying to stir the pot? Fox red is not a new color, it is the original yellow color.


It doesn't take much to stir the pot on RTF, seems most get bent out of shape about most anything here. New people get attacked without mercy and then like a pack of wolves the rest join in for the kill. When I first found out abut this forum I posted an honest question about a HRC hunt test. It was an honest question not a bitch. Well...the wolves came out and just attacked since then don't really give a sh....t what most think. Seems this is the MO they do to most new people. This isn't all, so not directed at the few who don't do this, but most do.

I will occasionally look here during the winter when it -20 here but if I got time to post thousand of times like many wouldn't have anytime to train or hunt my just talk about doing it.

So to answer your question,,,don't care.


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## Colonel Blimp

> Jack Vanderwyk


Who he? What axe he grind?

The cost quoted for a DNA test is JAWAG, but whatever it is it won't be cheap, and if it really is conclusive those are exactly the reasons why the breeders in the show / designer dog fraternity won't play ball. Why pay good money to prove their dogs aren't qualified for competition, or aren't genuine Labs? The implication is that it will be left to the working dog fraternities on both sides of the pond to take "unofficial" action, just as we do with health issues. I have deep sentiments of no enthusiasm for the Kennel Club, they are a millstone round the neck of the sporting breeds, and I hereby predict that in ten years time the business of "silver" Labs (in the UK at any rate) will be in just exactly the same fine mess as it is now. Having said that I find no evidence of the b******s putting in a appearance here; no one is advertising them. 

Eug


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## crackerd

> Jack Vanderwyk





Colonel Blimp said:


> Who he? What axe he grind?


Actually, Eug, 'fraid you've misidentified the old boy - the name's *Art Vandelay*, of the import/export dodge, at your service.

You also seem to have missed the crux of Mr. Vandelay's commentary:



> The cause of these concerns lies in the fact that more and more dogs are imported from the United States, with pedigree certificates from the American Kennel Club (AKC), which state that the dogs are Labrador Retrievers with the colours black, yellow or chocolate...


This goes against all reason for gamefinding - why, the gall and chutzpah of _* importing*_ Labs from the United States! Next thing you know Mr. Vandelay and his Mississipp' and Milnerian "associates" will be sending them back over trademarked as "Rogue Gundogs(TM)!" Soon to be followed by the inevitable "Wild Indian Canoe Labs"...

MG


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## Jeffrey Towler

Backwater said:


> I'm confused....red is yellow??? so why can't silver be chocolate?


Looks like only way to figure this out is through DNA.


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## crackerd

crackerd said:


> Next thing you know Mr. Vandelay and his Mississipp' and Milnerian "associates" will be sending them back over trademarked as "Rogue Gundogs(TM)!" Soon to be followed by *the inevitable "Wild Indian Canoe Labs"...*


Apologies for and no offence meant by any political incorrectness - that should be, according to the positive grammar training put forth by the master propagandist, "the inevitable _*Native American*_ Canoe Labs."

MG


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## Colonel Blimp

MG, No, I got the general drift but missed Herr Art Vandelay as the author. So to repeat the question, who is he, what does he do and what's his axe? I know what his gripe is.

I know I'm only half sentient and don't get round much anyway, but I've never see or heard of a Silver lab on these shores, or of a breeder or importer. Evidence?

Eug


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## gdgnyc

crackerd said:


> Actually, Eug, 'fraid you've misidentified the old boy - the name's *Art Vandelay*, of the import/export dodge, at your service.
> 
> You also seem to have missed the crux of Mr. Vandelay's commentary:
> 
> 
> 
> This goes against all reason for gamefinding - why, the gall and chutzpah of _* importing*_ Labs from the United States! Next thing you know Mr. Vandelay and his Mississipp' and Milnerian "associates" will be sending them back over trademarked as "Rogue Gundogs(TM)!" Soon to be followed by the inevitable "Wild Indian Canoe Labs"...
> 
> MG


Jack Vanderwyk does exist and I believe that the open letter is a post on one of his blogs. Google him. He's Dutch.


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## copterdoc

Backwater said:


> Thanks I read it. Still confused though between, British, Pointing, Silver, Canoe labs I just can't keep up with all the modern designs coming these days. I guess black suits me just fine!


EEBBDD = Lab
EEBbDD = Lab
EEbbDD = Lab
EeBBDD = Lab
EeBbDD = Lab
EebbDD = Lab
eeBBDD = Lab
eeBbDD = Lab
eebbDD = Lab

If any of the D's is recessive, it's not a Lab.

EEBBDd = not a Lab
EEBBdd = not a Lab
EEBbDd = not a Lab
EEBbdd = not a Lab
EEbbDd = not a Lab
EEbbdd = not a Lab
EeBBDd = not a Lab
EeBBdd = not a Lab
EeBbDd = not a Lab
EeBbdd = not a Lab
EebbDd = not a Lab
Eebbdd = not a Lab
eeBBDd = not a Lab
eeBBdd = not a Lab
eeBbDd = not a Lab
eeBbdd = not a Lab
eebbDd = not a Lab
eebbdd = not a Lab

Fox reds are either eeBBDD, eeBbDD or eebbDD


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## crackerd

C'mon, Eug, you were a pseudo-American, surely during your encampment here you were introduced to






*Art Vandelay, importer/exporter and, left almost unsaid, architect of Labrador retrievers*

The other joker, "Vanderwyk," reads like a Lab cover story as created by Graham Greene and Graham Chapman in collaboration with "the Colonel" (and not Col. Mustard either). 

MG


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## Backwater

copterdoc said:


> EEBBDD = Lab
> EEBbDD = Lab
> EEbbDD = Lab
> EeBBDD = Lab
> EeBbDD = Lab
> EebbDD = Lab
> eeBBDD = Lab
> eeBbDD = Lab
> eebbDD = Lab
> 
> If any of the D's is recessive, it's not a Lab.
> 
> EEBBDd = not a Lab
> EEBBdd = not a Lab
> EEBbDd = not a Lab
> EEBbdd = not a Lab
> EEbbDd = not a Lab
> EEbbdd = not a Lab
> EeBBDd = not a Lab
> EeBBdd = not a Lab
> EeBbDd = not a Lab
> EeBbdd = not a Lab
> EebbDd = not a Lab
> Eebbdd = not a Lab
> eeBBDd = not a Lab
> eeBBdd = not a Lab
> eeBbDd = not a Lab
> eeBbdd = not a Lab
> eebbDd = not a Lab
> eebbdd = not a Lab
> 
> Fox reds are either eeBBDD, eeBbDD or eebbDD


Thanks, I think NFC FC AFC works and sounds better to me. If I am looking for a pup the pedigree must contain these for me and the color BLACK when I look at the dog! This makes getting a pup simple for me. I like things simple


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## Bridget Bodine

the problem with allowing silver dogs to be registered is that in a few years they will be throughout the gene pool . Well meaning breeders , who have NO interest in producing silvers will have silvers appearing in their lines. Maybe we should go back to culling puppies that don't meet the standard.


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## firehouselabs

It's not the pups' fault…go back to culling the idiots who breed them


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## Jeffrey Towler

firehouselabs said:


> It's not the pups' fault…go back to culling the idiots who breed them


Thank You. I couldn't agree more.


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## DEDEYE

mitty said:


> Are you just trying to stir the pot? Fox red is not a new color, it is the original yellow color.


Exactly......


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## Bridget Bodine

I was not being serious..... BUT what happens in a few years when they start popping up in litters, because they are wrapped into the gene pool. Do you give them away, like you might a birth defect? People WILL be having surprises in a few years, because the dogs are listed as chocolate you might never know there is silver behind what you are breeding. What would you do as a breeder? THIS is why they must be stopped from being allowed to registered. In my humble opinion


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## Rainmaker

Backwater said:


> So where are these "Fox Red" Labradors coming from also?


There are plenty of dark yellows/fox reds throughout Labrador history, and, unlike silvers, there are multiple with titles. NFC Dewey's Drake of Moon River, FC AFC CFC CAFC Money Talks II, FC AFC Gunstock's Topshelf Snap Decision, FC AFC Hunting Hills Coriander, and on and on. You can go back in the history as far as there are photos and see the fox red shade in yellows. Can't do that with silvers.


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## afdahl

Rainmaker said:


> You can go back in the history as far as there are photos and see the fox red shade in yellows. Can't do that with silvers.


I Dunno…I've seen lots of early photos of supposed "yellow" and/or fox red Labradors and they all look silver to me 

Amy Dahl


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## Rainmaker

afdahl said:


> I Dunno…I've seen lots of early photos of supposed "yellow" and/or fox red Labradors and they all look silver to me
> 
> Amy Dahl


LOL, yes, the black and white does lend that tint to them, no doubt.


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## Mike Tome

Rainmaker said:


> LOL, yes, the black and white does lend that tint to them, no doubt.



Ahhh, Kim, you beat me to it!!!


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## Backwater

Bridget Bodine said:


> the problem with allowing silver dogs to be registered is that in a few years they will be throughout the gene pool . Well meaning breeders , who have NO interest in producing silvers will have silvers appearing in their lines. Maybe we should go back to culling puppies that don't meet the standard.



Oh God!!! Now you did it......even suggesting culling on this forum will get the mini van driving owners with their clickers at your door step with pitch forks ! I would hide if I were you, JMHO


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## Mike Tome

Backwater said:


> Oh God!!! Now you did it......even suggesting culling on this forum will get the mini van driving owners with their clickers at your door step with pitch forks ! I would hide if I were you, JMHO


Honest to goodness, I've read 3 threads today and in each one of them you show up complaining about some form of "piling on" on this forum. We get it.... you felt wronged for some reason. But you don't need to bring it up in every post.


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## Hunt'EmUp

My question would be that if the dd is from Weins it's not the only gene from them that was imported; thus if you DNA map the Silver they should have more than one suspect gene; a bit of testing on this and it would be solved where it came from gets rid of the whole pure bred Lab argument. Yet I haven't seen this being done which brings up the suspect of whether the gene was there originally, and not locked as believed. The E-a gene is much the same way, it was believed to be locked, however a few black and tan and brindle labs pop-up every once in awhile, (heaven forbid that gets out, or we'll have more lab colors than we know what to do with ) Only I've seen the testing on them, to prove purebred status; and such pups were sold Limited registration, the breeding never repeated, which is what should've happend when the Sliver coloration popped up. A proper breeder would've investigated and prevented a disqualifying trait from spreading.


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## Takem_brewer

What people are failing to mention about fox red is that they have the same color makeup as a white lab or a yellow lab. It is not different than having light blonde or dark blonde hair. The dogs that are silver contain a totally different gene from the regular chocolate color.


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## afdahl

Takem_brewer said:


> What people are failing to mention about fox red is that they have the same color makeup as a white lab or a yellow lab. It is not different than having light blonde or dark blonde hair. The dogs that are silver contain a totally different gene from the regular chocolate color.


This analogy doesn't fit the point you're trying to make. In both cases, white or fox red vs. yellow and silver vs. chocolate, the genes we usually associate with the color are present (ee and bb respectively) but the expressed color is also affected by genes at other loci (other positions in the genome). IOW in this sense the different shades falling under "yellow" are equivalent to the different shades registered as "chocolate."

Amy Dahl


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## SjSmith

Backwater said:


> I will occasionally look here during the winter when it -20 here but if I got time to post thousand of times like many wouldn't have anytime to train or hunt my just talk about doing it.


Maybe with this warm up you can get back to training and stop posting the "poor me" stuff.


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## Renee P.

Backwater said:


> It doesn't take much to stir the pot on RTF, seems most get bent out of shape about most anything here. New people get attacked without mercy and then like a pack of wolves the rest join in for the kill. When I first found out abut this forum I posted an honest question about a HRC hunt test. It was an honest question not a bitch. Well...the wolves came out and just attacked since then don't really give a sh....t what most think. Seems this is the MO they do to most new people. This isn't all, so not directed at the few who don't do this, but most do.
> 
> I will occasionally look here during the winter when it -20 here but if I got time to post thousand of times like many wouldn't have anytime to train or hunt my just talk about doing it.
> 
> So to answer your question,,,don't care.


Well now you are just being silly.  Few RTFers will sacrifice hunting or training time to post here! That's what work is for! :razz:

I do not remember the thread of which you speak, in which you, as a virgin RTFer were attacked. I looked through your old posts and could not find it. I am sorry that happened to you, that is not right.

Meanwhile I have noticed posts by you in which virgin RTFers ask for training advice, and you give them ugly opinions about their dogs. You declare that you would not feed such dogs. 

Wow. 

Rule number 1: don't insult someone's dog.

Carry on...


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## Pete

> What people are failing to mention about fox red is that they have the same color makeup as a white lab or a yellow lab. It is not different than having light blonde or dark blonde hair. The dogs that are silver contain a totally different gene from the regular chocolate color.


Same as the silvers. On one end of the spectrum you have Pewter a dark, less expensive silvery color and On the other end you have platinum which is a light but rich savory color
Pete


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## Takem_brewer

A fox red will have the same color genetic makeup as a light yellow dog was my point. The silver has a different color makeup as the chocolate. What I said made complete sense.

Yellow dog Example (There are many more): BBeeDD This is a yellow with black pigment. Does not carry chocolate. This yellow could be white, yellow, or fox red. This is why fox red is different from the dillute colors. It is still within the yellow spectrum.

Chocolate dog Example: bbEEDD This is a chocolate lab. Can be dark to light chocolate in color.

Silver dog Example: bbEEdd This will be a silver lab. The difference between this color is that they have two copies of the dillute gene. This is not accepted as a color that the lab carries. This is NOT Chocolate.


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## afdahl

Takem_brewer said:


> A fox red will have the same color genetic makeup as a light yellow dog was my point. The silver has a different color makeup as the chocolate. What I said made complete sense.
> 
> Yellow dog Example (There are many more): BBeeDD This is a yellow with black pigment. Does not carry chocolate. This yellow could be white, yellow, or fox red. This is why fox red is different from the dillute colors. It is still within the yellow spectrum.
> 
> Chocolate dog Example: bbEEDD This is a chocolate lab. Can be dark to light chocolate in color.
> 
> Silver dog Example: bbEEdd This will be a silver lab. The difference between this color is that they have two copies of the dillute gene. This is not accepted as a color that the lab carries. This is NOT Chocolate.


Right, but you only arrive at your conclusion because you're cherry picking the information you include! 

If you add the C locus, you get
light yellow B?/cc/??/ee (you really don't know what a yellow carries at the D locus)
fox red B?/CC/??/ee

Standard chocolate bb/??/D?/E? (?s represent alleles you can't detect from the appearance: CC, Cc, or cc in chocolates, also DD vs Dd and EE vs Ee)
Silver bb/??/dd/E?

Light yellow and fox red differ at the C locus (and may carry b, d, k (allowing brindling) and other genes
Standard chocolate and silver differ at the D locus (and the standard chocolate may carry d, e, k, and other unseen recessives).

In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.

Amy Dahl


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## Takem_brewer

[QUOTEEEEEEEEE]
In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.

Amy Dahl[/QUOTE]

I realize that, but people dont understand why fox red is considered okay but the dillute colors are not. The only way to explain is by using genetics. The standard allows for all of the yellow spectrum. It does not allow for the dillute gene.


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## Renee P.

Takem_brewer said:


> In each case, different at one locus. It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.
> 
> Amy Dahl
> 
> 
> 
> I realize that, but people dont understand why fox red is considered okay but the dillute colors are not. The only way to explain is by using genetics. The standard allows for all of the yellow spectrum. It does not allow for the dillute gene.
Click to expand...

The standard says nothing about genotype. Therefore I do not find any argument about genotype persuasive. Back when the original breed standard was written they didn't even understand heritability. Heck the double helix was "discovered" about the same time they came out with silver labs.


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## Jeffrey Towler

mitty said:


> The standard says nothing about genotype. Therefore I do not find any argument about genotype persuasive. Back when the original breed standard was written they didn't even understand heritability. Heck the double helix was "discovered" about the same time they came out with silver labs.


That's my issue with people quoting the lab standard all the time. In my opinion the lab standard is misguided at best, and in a worst case scenario a liability to future hunters wanting a quality hunting partner. The L C O A would do a great service to the breed, by going and watching a master test, or better yet a field trial. One quick look would be obvious to L.CO.A. reps, that there standard is way out of tune with whats needed in a days hunt.These fc , mh, are the labs that should be used to rewrite the standard.


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## Glenda Brown

A short reply to Jeff's comment on the LCOA understanding field Labs. The LRC (The Labrador Retriever Club) Board is composed of half the members of the Board having judged National Stakes. That half all have/had numerous FC/AFC and in some cases MH dogs as well. Many hunt. Quite a few of the Board members whose primary venue is conformation, also compete in and judge hunt tests. Many of the Board members have hunted for years. 

At the National Amateur in 2013, ten of the competing Labs were gone over by AKC conformation judges and all passed what is called a conformation certificate test. This means they meet the breed standard. Two of those passing were father and son, and those two each had NAFC titles in front of their names. If you review the names of the members of the Board who were involved in determining the current breed standard, you would note a list of outstanding representatives who judged many Nationals and who owned and competed with Labs whose names you would love to see in your pedigrees.

Glenda


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## Jeffrey Towler

Glenda Brown said:


> A short reply to Jeff's comment on the LCOA understanding field Labs. The LRC (The Labrador Retriever Club) Board is composed of half the members of the Board having judged National Stakes. That half all have/had numerous FC/AFC and in some cases MH dogs as well. Many hunt. Quite a few of the Board members whose primary venue is conformation, also compete in and judge hunt tests. Many of the Board members have hunted for years.
> 
> At the National Amateur in 2013, ten of the competing Labs were gone over by AKC conformation judges and all passed what is called a conformation certificate test. This means they meet the breed standard. Two of those passing were father and son, and those two each had NAFC titles in front of their names. If you review the names of the members of the Board who were involved in determining the current breed standard, you would note a list of outstanding representatives who judged many Nationals and who owned and competed with Labs whose names you would love to see in your pedigrees.
> 
> Glenda


Hi Glenda
Thank you for this info. I did not realize this. Having said that, I would like to know how this father and son actually did in the conformation ring. Again, I stand corrected . However, the dogs that impress me look like Lean Mac, not Big Mac :razz::razz:


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## Sharon Potter

The Labrador breed standard, as written, definitely favors a field type dog over what is often seen in the show ring.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Sharon Potter said:


> The Labrador breed standard, as written, definitely favors a field type dog over what is often seen in the show ring.


Then Sharon, why are the field labs not winning in the conformation ring? I am totally confused, I have people right here on this board saying their labs meet the standard. They, in fact do very well in the breed ring. However their dogs in know way look like my Bitch out of Esprit's Power Play (who is one fine looking animal)


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## Hunt'EmUp

A Conformation Certificate; is akin to a working certificate; it basically tell you that you have a lab to the lab standard; but it does not tell you that, your lab will win in a conformation competition. Just as a working certificate, tells you a lab has basic bird instinct; which is a far cry from preforming or winning in a competitive preformance venue.


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## copterdoc

afdahl said:


> .....It's simpler to say the color is disqualifying than to try to pick and choose genetic information to bolster an explanation.
> 
> Amy Dahl


 Yes, it is simpler.

And totally ineffective at stopping these greedy, unscrupulous, assholes from polluting the registry with lines outcrossed to other breeds that produce the dilution trait.


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## Sharon Potter

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Then Sharon, why are the field labs not winning in the conformation ring? I am totally confused, I have people right here on this board saying their labs meet the standard. They, in fact do very well in the breed ring. However their dogs in know way look like my Bitch out of Esprit's Power Play (who is one fine looking animal)


The simple answer is that the majority of show judges reward extremes and ignore the standard because they either don't care, don't know it or disagree with it.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Sharon Potter said:


> The simple answer is that the majority of show judges reward extremes and ignore the standard because they either don't care, don't know it or disagree with it.


That doesn't say much for the breed ring.


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## Sharon Potter

Jeffrey, to add a bit to that: There are CH/MH dogs out there...not a ton, but some. They earned their CH under judges who will put up a moderately built dog rather than rewarding extremes. There is also a level of fault that lies with some field breeders who don't look at structure and instead breed for what will win in their venue. Competition....on both the show and field side...tends to split a breed because of the extremes that result, and both sides say that blue ribbons make their dogs look just fine. If it wins, it gets to reproduce...and the cycle goes on.


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## copterdoc

The difference between a $1 bill, $100 bill and a counterfeit bill isn't the paper or the ink.
It's what it represents, that gives it it's value.

A few counterfeit bills will not effect the integrity of the currency.

However, thousands, or millions of them will undermine what the currency represents. 
It makes "real" no longer exist.

And that's a MAJOR problem for the entire currency.

These breeders need to be STOPPED from registering these dogs, or it will eventually DESTROY the registry.

It's not a little problem with a disqualifying fault. It's a massive and increasing cancer.

It needs to be stopped. 
Ignoring it, will not make it go away.


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## Glenda Brown

Hi Jeff:

Some of the others have already supplied some good answers. You will see the discrepancy between the field dogs and show dogs in quite a few of the retriever/hunting breeds! The one that stays the closest to being true is the Chesapeake among the retriever breeds. 

Recently, at the National Specialties, when they have judges seminars, we try to bring some field titled dogs in for the judges to see dogs that meet the standard physically, yet can do the work. This has been done for a couple of years at the GRCA National Specialty, and I know Fred Kampo (definitely) and I think Lyn Yelton as well, have used their Lab field champions for some of the conformation judges at the Lab Nat'l Specialty to view. In both Labs and Goldens, there are getting to be more and more Champions that are also master hunters. 

I have field trial/hunt test dogs so know what you mean, but I have seen a couple of very nice dogs who competed in both---tho usually in the minor stakes, although not always. In a lot of cases if you took off the fat, you would discover there is a decent looking dog underneath. When Fred took his dog, the judges all thought it would measure over-size and were very surprised to see he was right in standard. He gave the appearance of being bigger due to the fact he was so fit and had leg! Grady and Trav are right in standard as well. The show judges tend to put up what they are used to seeing in the ring. Not all that many years ago, many of the sporting dog judges in conformation also hunted so knew what a good hunting dog should look like and feel like in hard working condition and how it should move. Now probably there is only a very, very small minority of show judges that hunt or have even been exposed to hunting as a child.

In the early days of both Labs & Goldens, they often went from hunting in the field, then to the show ring and from there to the field trial, often in the same weekend.

I used to show horses and was in a hunter/jumper class where they also judged the conformation. The judge was from Germany, and pointed out quite a few of the horses were overweight and said they worked their horses in Germany, and didn't eat them! Luckily, my horse was quite fit, and in talking to him later, he said how fat is often used to cover a multitude of sins---ie., sort of like a wet tee-shirt contest reveals more than does a dry one. Field dogs normally are very fit and their muscles well delineated. 

Glenda


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## TexGold

Ok, I am a Golden guy, but I want you to know you are not alone. At least you don't have to put up with Oprah and her "white" Goldens. And it is a whole different deal in conformation. My HRCH golden probably could not get a confirmation certificate even though he has seven FT HOF dogs in the first three generations of his pedigree. Why? I doubt his bite is correct. 

My puppy looks like she may have some white on her hips, if she does she won't qualify. 

I can accept this as I bought performance dogs, not show pieces. What burns me though is the inconsistent application of the breed standards. 

The first part of the Golden standard states it is "primarily a hunting dog." It goes on to state that the coat should be neither too short or too long. 

Look at the confirmation winners! Most of them look like powder puffs. So, they have all that hair which I would love to see after a day of hunting, haven't shown they can find their supper bowls and likely can't run 200 yards without a coronary. Hmmm... But they win titles as fine examples of the breed when they can't even perform the tasks for which they are bred. But a fine hunting dog can't even enter the confirmation ring because of bite or color. 

I am not griping about the breed standard. If what was written was truly followed we might improve the breed. ( Certainly some exceptions to this on the lab side- short fat labs do not generally win field trials, but the may be better suited for hauling fish nets and the original tasks they were intended. Maybe a split in the breed is a good idea?)

The problem the Golden and Lab communities is having is that judges are ignoring the standard.


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## Colonel Blimp

*Renee* posted


> Back when the original breed standard was written they didn't even understand heritability.


Just a point of order M'Lud, but heritability was well understood empirically following the work of Mendel and later on Darwin; white sweet pea, pink sweet pea, Galapagos finches, all that jazz. What they didn't know or guess at was the mechanism that brought about the observable results. I think Mendel and Darwin would have had enough savvy in their days to look at a "silver" and say "Pops, that ain't a kosher Labrador, git it outta the breed pool."

Someone also made the point that the illegitimate Weim injection would have brought along a lot of characteristics other than mere colour, which is surely right. A tidy proportion of the Weims I've been involved with had jaws like rat traps; we used to say of one, "Never fails to bring in a dead bird!"

At bottom of course those who say it's all about money are spot on. Just checking a few on-line ads I note Springadors rolleyes being offered at well over the equivalent of $500 in UK.

Eug


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## Renee P.

Colonel Blimp said:


> *Renee* posted Just a point of order M'Lud, but heritability was well understood empirically following the work of Mendel and later on Darwin; white sweet pea, pink sweet pea, Galapagos finches, all that jazz. What they didn't know or guess at was the mechanism that brought about the observable results. I think Mendel and Darwin would have had enough savvy in their days to look at a "silver" and say "Pops, that ain't a kosher Labrador, git it outta the breed pool."
> 
> Someone also made the point that the illegitimate Weim injection would have brought along a lot of characteristics other than mere colour, which is surely right. A tidy proportion of the Weims I've been involved with had jaws like rat traps; we used to say of one, "Never fails to bring in a dead bird!"
> 
> At bottom of course those who say it's all about money are spot on. Just checking a few on-line ads I note Springadors rolleyes being offered at well over the equivalent of $500 in UK.
> 
> Eug


Eug, I am sure you are aware that Mendel's findings lay buried in the scientific literature until they were "rediscovered" in the 1900s by later scientists. It is clear to me when I read historical accounts of the labrador retriever that many if not most could not predict when the yellows would appear from black. Look how confused many RTFers are about it, and we all learn the principles in 8th grade here.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Colonel Blimp said:


> *Renee* posted Just a point of order M'Lud, but heritability was well understood empirically following the work of Mendel and later on Darwin; white sweet pea, pink sweet pea, Galapagos finches, all that jazz. What they didn't know or guess at was the mechanism that brought about the observable results. I think Mendel and Darwin would have had enough savvy in their days to look at a "silver" and say "Pops, that ain't a kosher Labrador, git it outta the breed pool."
> 
> Someone also made the point that the illegitimate Weim injection would have brought along a lot of characteristics other than mere colour, which is surely right. A tidy proportion of the Weims I've been involved with had jaws like rat traps; we used to say of one, "Never fails to bring in a dead bird!"
> 
> At bottom of course those who say it's all about money are spot on. Just checking a few on-line ads I note Springadors rolleyes being offered at well over the equivalent of $500 in UK.
> 
> Eug


Springadores, a new all time low. I have had Springers and labs since I was a little boy. I am thoroughly disgusted by hearing this.


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## afdahl

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Springadores, a new all time low. I have had Springers and labs since I was a little boy. I am thoroughly disgusted by hearing this.


Try not to think about it. There are people who will do anything to make a buck. Among the public are folks who go for novelty and a sales pitch. Dogs exist. Everything else follows.

Amy Dahl


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## Colonel Blimp

> Look how confused many RTFers are about it


*Renee*, there is much that RTFs are confused about!

Eug


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## boomer 453

my experience so take it for what its worth. before christmas i was shopping for a new pup since our chesapeake is not going to be able to be used as a hunting dog. on another forum a man was posting silver lab pups for $800, i asked him about clearances (none), pedigree's (none). a pure "my and your dog should hook up" breeding. and people were buying these pups at $800 each. 
I found a boykin pup from a man in Baton Rouge, when i picked up the pup the paperwork included full pedigree's on both sides, copies of cerf clearances, and copies of OFA results for both parents. for an extra $200 over backyard bred silvers i have as much piece of mind as one can get, all because of going to a responsible breeder.


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## Jeffrey Towler

afdahl said:


> Try not to think about it. There are people who will do anything to make a buck. Among the public are folks who go for novelty and a sales pitch. Dogs exist. Everything else follows.
> 
> Amy Dahl


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...201314618411770_1424965836_n.jpg&size=307,306

Before these disappear into history. My 8 month old pup Jack, after a pigeon in my hand.


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## PaxRiver

I have a red lab. It came from Rob Milner's Duck Hill kennel. It is pure british field trial pedigree. Red labs have always been here. The AKC refuses to acknowledge them. Similarly, they won't acknowledge black in the GSP. Even though they do in Germany. It's a AKC thing.


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## PaxRiver

I purchased a lab from Rob Milner. He is in front of the line in returning the lab to it's original blood lines. His "canoe labs" are just smaller labs bred to smaller labs. My father use to rail against his hunt partners with their 90lb labs in the boat. He always looked for the runt. He would say I don't need a 90lb dog to retrieve a 1lb duck. the lab has no greater fan than Rob Milner.


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## Happy Gilmore

PaxRiver said:


> I purchased a lab from Rob Milner. He is in front of the line in returning the lab to it's original blood lines. His "canoe labs" are just smaller labs bred to smaller labs. My father use to rail against his hunt partners with their 90lb labs in the boat. He always looked for the runt. He would say I don't need a 90lb dog to retrieve a 1lb duck. the lab has no greater fan than Rob Milner.


How are these British Canoe Labs performing in American field trials?


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## windycanyon

Pax, Fox Reds are most certainly recognized by the AKC as part of the yellow spectrum.


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## HNTFSH

Pax - do I understand correctly that you have a Lab from Rob Milner?


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## krakadawn

I suppose the fact that you will not get EIC and CNM clearances a AKC thing as well?


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## Happy Gilmore

The AKC or the parent breed club which writes the standard published by the AKC?


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## ebenezer

Here is another site to take a look at, especially anyone with a flat coat. www.chathamhillpointers.com
Don't let the word pointers fool you. They breed "retrievers"


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## DoubleHaul

ebenezer said:


> Here is another site to take a look at, especially anyone with a flat coat. www.chathamhillpointers.com
> Don't let the word pointers fool you. They breed "retrievers"


Those flattie/weim mixes (er, Chatham Hill Retrievers) are ugly critters


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## Sharon Potter

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> The AKC or the parent breed club which writes the standard published by the AKC?


The parent club writes the standard.


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## blind ambition

ebenezer said:


> Here is another site to take a look at, especially anyone with a flat coat. www.chathamhillpointers.com
> Don't let the word pointers fool you. They breed "retrievers"


Don't let the words Flat Coat fool anyone either, these breeders are an abomination. When word got out on the FCR grapevine about their activities there was a whole lot of effort made to find out who supplied them with intact dogs or bitches.

For what it's worth; while Yellow was always present from the earliest days of the breed, so too had it been excluded from the standard. There was no equivocation in the breed standard, it called for yellow to be "ruthlessly condemned". No reputable breeder is to sell a yellow FCR without a Spay/Neuter clause.


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## frontier

blind ambition said:


> Don't let the words Flat Coat fool anyone either, these breeders are an abomination. When word got out on the FCR grapevine about their activities there was a whole lot of effort made to find out who supplied them with intact dogs or bitches.
> 
> For what it's worth; while Yellow was always present from the earliest days of the breed, so too had it been excluded from the standard. There was no equivocation in the breed standard, it called for yellow to be "ruthlessly condemned". No reputable breeder is to sell a yellow FCR without a Spay/Neuter clause.


 It's unbelieveable what the public will purchase and believe. To top it off, according to another online classified ad, they are asking $1600 per pup for something that is no more than a mixed breed.


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## sick lids

Everyone would be much better of if they went around to the local shelters and collected the pups and came up with some good labels and hefty price tags to go with them.


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## SLAB

You might check both sides of the coin out. http://www.labradorcouncil.com/silver-lab-facts.html

You might try both sides of the coin.


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## limiman12

JMHO..... Is it possible that the dilute gene might have been present in the purebred lab gene pool based on cheeses and Newfoundlands both having it..... Yes.


Is it likely that once the market for silvers exploded questionable breeding practices, either breeding solely for color or perhaps enhancing the frequency of the gene in certain lines by adding a chessie dilute or a weim dilute to the "line". Yes


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## copterdoc

SLAB said:


> You might check both sides of the coin out. http://www.labradorcouncil.com/silver-lab-facts.html
> 
> You might try both sides of the coin.


 Ah, the famous AKC statement by Robert Young of the AKC.

Copy and paste this lie into a google search, and see who keeps repeating it.



> In 1987 we conducted an inquiry into the breeding of the litters that contained the dogs that were registered as silver and one of our representatives was sent to observe several of the dogs that had been registered as silver. Color photographs of these dogs were forwarded to the office of the American Kennel Club where the staff of the AKC and the representative of the Labrador Retriever Club of America examined them. Both parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however both parties felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard describes chocolate as ranging in shade from Sedge to Chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate than as silver."
> 
> Written by Robert Young of the AKC 3/27/00




And then tell me who "Robert Young of the AKC" is, and what position he holds, or once held, with the AKC.


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## metalone67

Backwater said:


> I'm confused....red is yellow??? so why can't silver be chocolate?


Because Fox reds carry the right genetic codes proving they are in fact a shade of yellow.
Silvers carry a dd which is not found in labs, but only in Wiemeraners.


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## DoubleHaul

copterdoc said:


> And then tell me who "Robert Young of the AKC" is, and what position he holds, or once held, with the AKC.[/COLOR]


He is the Web Content Editor/Web Photographer. What do I win?


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## Sharon Potter

There's a little more to that AKC story. The spin put on it is rather interesting, but that's what spin does. AKC did send a rep to a certain kennel, and the rep said the dogs looked like Labs, and that they kinda looked like very light brown, so they should be registered chocolate. AKC went with that and registered the dogs, and that rep ended up losing his job over it. 

The bottom line is that gray/silver is a disqualifying color and will never be an acceptable color to the parent club. Unfortunately, that information isn't ever included with all the spin.


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## Happy Gilmore

SLAB said:


> You might check both sides of the coin out. http://www.labradorcouncil.com/silver-lab-facts.html
> 
> You might try both sides of the coin.


I don't think anyone is intending to put down your dog personally. Everyone here for the most part would love on any dog they meet. The bigger issue is that the vast majority of silver dogs for sale are bred by people for color alone with no regard to performance ability or health. The link above appears to have been made by one person. I'd be very curious to know if the "Labrador Council" was actually a real organization with a Tax Code status rather than a persons' attempt to make a fictional organization to support a special interest.


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## Jerry Beil

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I don't think anyone is intending to put down your dog personally. Everyone here for the most part would love on any dog they meet. The bigger issue is that the vast majority of silver dogs for sale are bred by people for color alone with no regard to performance ability or health. The link above appears to have been made by one person. I'd be very curious to know if the "Labrador Council" was actually a real organization with a Tax Code status rather than a persons' attempt to make a fictional organization to support a special interest.


I think you're probably largely right, and 100% right about the folks here loving on any dog regardless of color... 

However, there is more than just breeding for color that folks take issue with. The breed is defined, and part of that definition is color. There is no allowance for silver or charcoal or grey or blue or green labs. There's also no allowance for a long haired curly version. When folks start intentionally trying to add in their little designed elements, and when dogs displaying or carrying those characteristics then get registered as AKC labs, then you end up with those characteristics in the gene pool, or more commonly in the gene pool. If the breed standard specifically states that the color is disqualifying, then folks shouldn't be trying to breed for it. If that's what someone wants to do, they should create their own breed instead of misleading people and damaging the existing breed. It's just not good practice to specifically target and breed FOR disqualifying traits. The breed can't be everything for everyone.

Bottom line, if it can be proven that there is Weimeraner blood in there on those labs, then they're not purebred labs at all. But that's secondary to the main point that it's still a disqualifying trait, and if you want to breed and register labs as pure bred labs, that's not something that should be your goal.


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## Sharon Potter

I like all dogs. I don't care what color/breed/religion they are...I enjoy them all. 

What I don't like are scam artists, which from my experience 99.99% (NOTE: I didn't say ALL) of the silver breeders are,* whether they intend to be or not*. If they would do their homework and then just be honest about what they're doing, I'd be fine with it, but they don't and aren't. And I also think many of them have just "drank the Kool-Aid" provided by the folks who started all this awhile back, and either are so caught up in the cash end that they don't want to become more educated, thereby keeping their heads in the sand, or they're simply gullible enough to believe what they've been told and don't look further.

The issue isn't about the dogs, it's about the people.


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## Lonnie Spann

if anyone knows of a silver FC x FC breeding please let me know. I need one to train for the Grand.

L Spann


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## DoubleHaul

Sharon Potter said:


> If they would do their homework and then just be honest about what they're doing, I'd be fine with it, but they don't and aren't.


This is the part I don't get. You don't have to be a rocket geneticist to know that breeding specifically for a recessive trait often brings bad things along with it. With all the rage about the various designer breeds, why not just call 'em Weimadors and charge more? Personally I would be more comfortable with someone who showed me how they bred healthy labs and healthy Weims with all their hunting instincts intact to make the dog than going crazy on a deeply recessive gene.


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## SloppyMouth

Sharon Potter said:


> The bottom line is that gray/silver is a disqualifying color and will never be an acceptable color to the parent club.


Never say never, Sharon. Chocolate wasn't an acceptable color at one time, either. 

I want to know how everyone KNOWS that dd has NEVER been part of Labrador genetics.

And what about Amy Dahl's post on her research into the topic...with a man that was part of the canine genome project, who believes it's a very old mutation that has been in the breed?


----------



## suepuff

DoubleHaul said:


> This is the part I don't get. *You don't have to be a rocket geneticist to know that breeding specifically for a recessive trait often brings bad things along with it.* With all the rage about the various designer breeds, why not just call 'em Weimadors and charge more? Personally I would be more comfortable with someone who showed me how they bred healthy labs and healthy Weims with all their hunting instincts intact to make the dog than going crazy on a deeply recessive gene.


This is the problem. (highlighted area). People are lazy and greedy. They don't have to know ANYTHING and they can believe what the News tells them and the breeders that have champion 'lines' and silver is a real color, etc, and make money. It's easy. Sharon is right. If you are really concerned about doing whats right, it's not 'easy'. They are not even attempting to know basic genetics. That would be too hard....why do you need that? Someone is still gonna be suckered into buying the silver, 7 toed, dual tailed lab because it will be 'cool'. And cost ten million over time due to vet bills....

Sue Puff


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## Swampcollie

There is now a way to get to the bottom of this, although somewhat expensive. 
Test a significant portion of the Labrador population in the U.K.. If there is no evidence of dd in the UK Labrador population, that evidence will pretty well establish that there were some mixed breedings here on this side of the big pond.


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## Ironman

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> The link above appears to have been made by one person. I'd be very curious to know if the "Labrador Council" was actually a real organization with a Tax Code status rather than a persons' attempt to make a fictional organization to support a special interest.


They appear to be a non-profit registered out of Ohio.


Without question there are a lot of silver breeders who breed only for color. Yet over the last couple years of watching, there has been a significant rise in the numbers of them who at least claim to do health clearances, some even post them online. More are listing non silver Labs on their sites. More have been titled too. I've heard of one that is a MH. At least some are now doing something with their dogs. We can always hope more will give up just breeding for color.


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## polmaise

Ironman said:


> They appear to be a non-profit registered out of Ohio.
> 
> 
> Without question there are a lot of silver breeders who breed only for color. Yet over the last couple years of watching, there has been a significant rise in the numbers of them who at least claim to do health clearances, some even post them online. More are listing non silver Labs on their sites. More have been titled too. I've heard of one that is a MH. At least some are now doing something with their dogs. We can always hope more will give up just breeding for color.


Amen to that brother!!!
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Half-Black-Half-Yellow-Labrador-Could-Be-a-Chimera-370965.shtml


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## metalone67

Ironman said:


> They appear to be a non-profit registered out of Ohio.
> 
> 
> Without question there are a lot of silver breeders who breed only for color. Yet over the last couple years of watching, there has been a significant rise in the numbers of them who at least claim to do health clearances, some even post them online. More are listing non silver Labs on their sites. More have been titled too. I've heard of one that is a MH. At least some are now doing something with their dogs. We can always hope more will give up just breeding for color.


How can they have a MH when they are unable to register them, because they are silver? Am I missing something here?


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## shawninthesticks

metalone67 said:


> How can they have a MH when they are unable to register them, because they are silver? Am I missing something here?


They are allowed to register them as chocolate....but then they advertise them as the silver.


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## Jeffrey Towler

I have only seen one Silver(?) at a hunt test. It looked just like a Weimaraner to me.


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## DarrinGreene

The problem, may in fact be some imported gene but that's not the real root of the problem...

People breeding based on color AS THE SINGLE FACTOR IN CONSIDERATION, are a problem, and the bigger elephant in the room is the unknowing consumer, willing to spend a ton of money for a dog that's not what they bargained for. 

It's an interesting paradox in American society, we want to conform... we wear accepted brands of clothing and dress in conventional ways, groom ourselves as society desires, speak in ways only society accepts... 

But we want a unique type of dog...

I get the doodle thing, where people are trying to get dogs that don't shed, for the obvious reasons...

What I don't get it why anyone would care abut some oddball color of Labrador...

Any time color supersedes performance, health and temperament, we have a problem for the gene pool IMHO.

Education of the general public is the only solution. They don't care about registrations. You can purify the stud book all you like and people will still be breeding unhealthy dogs with poor temperaments and selling them for premium prices.

Where there is demand, there is money, and where there is money, there are unscrupulous people exploiting that demand.

This outreach is everyone's job IMHO, but AKC should have a leadership role, if they are to fulfill their mission, as I understand it.


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## Jeffrey Towler

"Any time color supersedes performance, health and temperament, we have a problem for the gene pool IMHO."

Very True, I would expand that to include just breeding for overall look.


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## shawninthesticks

IMO AKC should take the lead on this matter and come to a conclusion of yea or na. Then the debate would be over as far as purebred or not. After all their registration papers are a leading factor in the purchase price of most breeds. How would it effect the dollar value of the Silvers if they where not able to be registered with AKC? Which in most cases is the leading factor with most silver breeders.


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## DarrinGreene

shawninthesticks said:


> IMO AKC should take the lead on this matter and come to a conclusion of yea or na. Then the debate would be over as far as purebred or not. After all their registration papers are a leading factor in the purchase price of most breeds. How would it effect the dollar value of the Silvers if they where not able to be registered with AKC? Which in most cases is the leading factor with most silver breeders.


The problem, as the letter states is...

How does AKC protect the integrity of the information they receive from breeders. We've all heard the stories of one stud being substituted for another on the registration. 

Putting the burden of DNA proofing on breeders would only cause the AKC to lose money. Footing the bill would cause them to lose money. 

I can't think of an iron clad solution that would allow the AKC to not lose money.

I won't accuse them but... The AKC is probably concerned with losing money.


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## Jim Danis

Ironman said:


> They appear to be a non-profit registered out of Ohio.
> 
> 
> Without question there are a lot of silver breeders who breed only for color. Yet over the last couple years of watching, there has been a significant rise in the numbers of them who at least claim to do health clearances, some even post them online. More are listing non silver Labs on their sites. More have been titled too. I've heard of one that is a MH. At least some are now doing something with their dogs. We can always hope more will give up just breeding for color.


I know the trainer that trained and ran the Silver MH. I've seen the dog a lot. It is registered as a chocolate I believe. It does look a bit different. Not quite the look of a Lab, definitely not the look of a Weimeraner though. There were days in training and running at a HT that this dog was definitely turned on! Other days it seemed to be way out in la la land. The owners have bred the dog quite a bit as far as I know. Honestly cannot say if it has all of it's clearences.


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## shawninthesticks

DarrinGreene said:


> The problem, as the letter states is...
> 
> How does AKC protect the integrity of the information they receive from breeders. We've all heard the stories of one stud being substituted for another on the registration.
> 
> Putting the burden of DNA proofing on breeders would only cause the AKC to lose money. Footing the bill would cause them to lose money.
> 
> I can't think of an iron clad solution that would allow the AKC to not lose money.
> 
> I won't accuse them but... The AKC is probably concerned with losing money.


I didnt say they would ,only should. I cant imagine the revenue they make off of the "chocolate" box being checked. It would also be money lost if they raised the requirement for registration by requiring any kind of health cert's. Just goes to show you that even with AKC ,money takes priority over the overall health of the animals they make millions from. Bad way to lead by example.


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## Sharon Potter

Even if AKC said "no more registering silver as chocolate", what's to stop the breeders from doing it anyway?


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## shawninthesticks

Sharon Potter said:


> Even if AKC said "no more registering silver as chocolate", what's to stop the breeders from doing it anyway?


My guess would be that most people see AKC registration as the proof that you are buying a purebred dog with documented parents. Without the proof ,the value would drop, with no large profit involved , silver breeders would have nothing to gain, because they are proving they are not breeding to better the breed if they are purposely breeding a disqualifying color as the main purpose. The only leg silver breeders have to stand on now is the selling point of "AKC registered" without that piece of paper ,buyers might start raising an eyebrow when a breeder says "purebred labs for sale" $1500. the add would read more like "free to good home ,lab mix".


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## limiman12

There are so many upstart registries that it would barely nick the profitability...... I could start a BDC (better kennel club). Charge people 40 bucks to send me their dogs "self reported pedigree" and titles and spend some money on a document printing program to make it look official and then they would be advertising BDC registered puppies.....


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## limiman12

I had a guy ask about buying a chocolate puppy from a silver litter...... "Well it's litter mates are worth 1200 and he is only 400". My response was "without health clearances, none of the pups were worth 400....... If someone is breeding for a single trait, why buy a pup from a litter that doesn't even have the trait it was bred to have?"


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## BigKahuna13

shawninthesticks said:


> My guess would be that most people see AKC registration as the proof that you are buying a purebred dog with documented parents. Without the proof ,the value would drop, with no large profit involved , silver breeders would have nothing to gain, because they are proving they are not breeding to better the breed if they are purposely breeding a disqualifying color as the main purpose. The only leg silver breeders have to stand on now is the selling point of "AKC registered" without that piece of paper ,buyers might start raising an eyebrow when a breeder says "purebred labs for sale" $1500. the add would read more like "free to good home ,lab mix".


People buy "designer" dogs all the time and pay premium prices.


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## jd6400

SloppyMouth said:


> Never say never, Sharon. Chocolate wasn't an acceptable color at one time, either.
> 
> I want to know how everyone KNOWS that dd has NEVER been part of Labrador genetics.
> 
> And what about Amy Dahl's post on her research into the topic...with a man that was part of the canine genome project, who believes it's a very old mutation that has been in the breed?


The first silver I saw was roughly 28 years ago if that says anything.......... Jim


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## Jeannie Greenlee

There are all kinds of people that are just in it for the money. For example, look at this travesty http://www.goldendoodle.net/about-us/history

They are calling them mini-retrievers or comfort goldens. The price is outrageous! I don't know what people are thinking when they buy these mixed breed dogs and pay that kind of price.


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## copterdoc

The AKC never gave anybody permission to register "silver" "labs" as chocolate.

They did say that they could NOT register a Labrador Retriever as being anything other than Black, Yellow, or Chocolate.

That's an important distinction.

The fact that there are designer breeds being bred, is not an issue for the registry.
Unless, those designer breeds are successfully being registered within the registry.

Nobody is registering labradoodles, goldendoodles, puggles, cockapoos, snoodles, etc.

They ARE deliberately breeding and registering only ONE designer breed.
Dilute labs.

As chocolate.


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## gdluck

shawninthesticks said:


> The only leg silver breeders have to stand on now is the selling point of "AKC registered" without that piece of paper ,buyers might start raising an eyebrow when a breeder says "purebred labs for sale" $1500. the add would read more like "free to good home ,lab mix".


pipe dream. folks already pay $1500 for labradoodles with no papers or puggles or any of the other fads.


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## gdluck

I would expand that to include breeding for ANY trait without maintaining the overall breed standard. 

Most of the "purists" Prolly don't like that though cause you know that 50lb curly tailed dog can WIN!


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## gdluck

Jeffrey Towler said:


> "Any time color supersedes performance, health and temperament, we have a problem for the gene pool IMHO."
> 
> Very True, I would expand that to include just breeding for overall look.


I would expand that to include breeding for ANY trait without maintaining the overall breed standard. 

Most of the "purists" Prolly don't like that though cause you know that 50lb curly tailed dog can WIN!


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## Jeffrey Towler

gdluck said:


> I would expand that to include breeding for ANY trait without maintaining the overall breed standard.
> 
> Most of the "purists" Prolly don't like that though cause you know that 50lb curly tailed dog can WIN!


Maybe I am just worn out from working 7 days a week for months. I just don't understand. Your comment about a curly tailed dog. It's already been established on this thread that silver labs have a DNA problem. If you want to have a discussion in regard to that lab standard with me. Please use your real name, not an alias .I have made it as clear as I can, (to the point of having some show people who I like stop talking to me) that I cannot support that lab standard, if what I see in the how ring represents that document.


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## Jeffrey Towler

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Maybe I am just worn out from working 7 days a week for months. I just don't understand. Your comment about a curly tailed dog. It's already been established on this thread that silver labs have a DNA problem. If you want to have a discussion in regard to that lab standard with me. Please use your real name, not an alias .I have made it as clear as I can, (to the point of having some show people who I like stop talking to me) that I cannot support that lab standard, if what I see in the how ring represents that document.


Should have been spelled show (instead of how)


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## Julie R.

Jerry Beil said:


> ...
> However, there is more than just breeding for color that folks take issue with. The breed is defined, and part of that definition is color. There is no allowance for silver or charcoal or grey or blue or green labs. There's also no allowance for a long haired curly version. When folks start intentionally trying to add in their little designed elements, and when dogs displaying or carrying those characteristics then get registered as AKC labs, then you end up with those characteristics in the gene pool, or more commonly in the gene pool. If the breed standard specifically states that the color is disqualifying, then folks shouldn't be trying to breed for it. If that's what someone wants to do, they should create their own breed instead of misleading people and damaging the existing breed. It's just not good practice to specifically target and breed FOR disqualifying traits. The breed can't be everything for everyone.
> 
> Bottom line, if it can be proven that there is Weimeraner blood in there on those labs, then they're not purebred labs at all. But that's secondary to the main point that it's still a disqualifying trait, and if you want to breed and register labs as pure bred labs, that's not something that should be your goal.


Best post on this thread!! 

Bottom line, the Labrador has had a closed registry for many years. So it really doesn't matter if the dilute gene was "discovered" or fraudulently introduced via the Lab/weim crosses rumored to be involved in the plethora of silver Labs we have today. Dilute colors may have existed at one point but they were bred out. Who are these people promoting something differing from the standard? Any of them ever competed a purebred dog in any event or been a member of a breed or other dog club? (((eye roll))) What's next, curly tails, brindle and piebald coats, pointy ears? With as many breeds of dogs as there are, if you want a silver coat or a brindle or a black and white spotted dog, there are breeds that have those.


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## afdahl

Julie R. said:


> With as many breeds of dogs as there are, if you want a silver coat or a brindle or a black and white spotted dog, there are breeds that have those.
> 
> [/SIZE]


This brings up the problem on the other side. None of those other breeds is a Lab. They don't have the lab's forgiving response to training mistakes and high pressure, and they don't have the extraordinary bite inhibition and adaptability of a Lab. A lot of people want to be different, to get attention for having a dog that isn't what everyone else has. Regrettably, some of those will get a Chesapeake, which can turn out badly for dog and owner.

Some will get Flatties or "doodles" or something else that won't be as trainable or high achieving as a Lab.

Amy Dahl


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## Golden Boy

Sharon Potter said:


> Even if AKC said "no more registering silver as chocolate", what's to stop the breeders from doing it anyway?


Breeders are already doing that.No where on the an AKC register have I seen check here for silver. So to put it in a nut shell. The people that are breeding silvers and calling them chocolate labs are just flat out liars. Nice...that's real honest and ethical. 
The person or people I feel sorry for are the low information people buying the silver mutt, thinking they're getting a pure bred lab. And they're getting ripped off. And what else are these breeders lieing about hips, eyes, elbows ects????????
It's just shaddy and unethical.


----------



## Golden Boy

afdahl said:


> This brings up the problem on the other side. None of those other breeds is a Lab. They don't have the lab's forgiving response to training mistakes and high pressure, and they don't have the extraordinary bite inhibition and adaptability of a Lab. A lot of people want to be different, to get attention for having a dog that isn't what everyone else has. Regrettably, some of those will get a Chesapeake, which can turn out badly for dog and owner.
> 
> Some will get Flatties or "doodles" or something else that won't be as trainable or high achieving as a Lab.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Amy, These aren't purebred labs. So the people buying these dogs aren't getting a pure lab to begin with. 
Have you ever seen or trained one of these silver dogs. I have, they're a nice dog for the couch, but these silver dogs aren't labs. In my opinion these dogs lack a lot of what a good pure black, yellow or chocolate have. Which is trainablity and drive.


----------



## Sharon Potter

My point is this: Currently, AKC considers silver a shade of chocolate, which it is not, and allows silvers to be registered as chocolate. So, suppose AKC were to change their status and not allow silvers to be registered as chocolate any longer....how would AKC know that all chocolates registered really are chocolate, and that silver breeders weren't continuing to register them as such? They would have to inspect every chocolate puppy registered. Really, as it stands now, you could register a yellow as black and AKC wouldn't know it wasn't (not that I can imagine anybody wanting to do such a thing, but there's no way for AKC to know what color a dog really is when its registered. It's all the honor system, and therein lies the failure.


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## DRAKEHAVEN

Water bucket water bucket water bucket water bucketwater bucket water bucket water bucket...............


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## afdahl

Golden Boy said:


> Amy, These aren't purebred labs. So the people buying these dogs aren't getting a pure lab to begin with.
> Have you ever seen or trained one of these silver dogs. I have, they're a nice dog for the couch, but these silver dogs aren't labs. In my opinion these dogs lack a lot of what a good pure black, yellow or chocolate have. Which is trainablity and drive.


I have it on what I consider good authority that at least some of them are purebred, as "pure" as any individual in a breed that has had a closed stud book only around 100 years. That is, from Dr. Mark Neff, a UCBerkeley researcher on the Canine Genome project, who has collected reports and pedigrees from breeders who have unexpectedly had "silvers" appear in litters. "You wouldn't believe" some of the bloodlines in which they are appearing; pedigree analysis shows the presence of the allele in the breed to go far back.

I trained a black Lab sired by a silver, and he was quite a good dog. I trained a silver bitch and she was difficult, but she was reared in a home with her dam, never separated, and that by itself could account for the poor training response, so I can't infer much about silvers from that. I did think she was ugly, not because she had the fineness typical of tightly-bred dogs, but because her structure was poor--narrow chest, turned-out front legs, stuff like that. She did have a typical Lab head fwiw.

I would certainly concur that breeding selectively for any one trait decreases one's ability to select for all other traits, and that breeding for two color recessives (b and d) necessarily means intense selection for color, thereby greatly reducing selection for anything else. I also take pedigrees with a dose of salt--so many ways for the parents of a puppy not to be who they are purported to be. DNA profiling, of course, helps with that.

Taken all together, I oppose the purposeful breeding of silvers because I think part of a breeder's responsibility is to maintain the essence or definition of the breed. Granted the Lab is a mix of older breeds, but it is a mix that was created with a purpose and image in mind. Reducing, not promoting, the variability inherent in the mix, and striving toward a standard, is part of defining, creating, and maintaining the breed. On the other hand, I don't get as excited as some here about it. We have a huge market for fad dogs providing motivation to the doodle and poo and silver breeders, and unless we can educate the public, trying to counter that motivation by force is a losing proposition IMHO. Pollution of the gene pool is not something I'm worried about. As long as they are crummy dogs, nobody trying to breed for working ability or show is going to cross to them, so they will stay in their own little corner. And thanks to DNA testing, anyone who wants to eliminate the allele from their breeding stock can easily do it in one generation.

Concerns about the gene pool are more in the opposite direction--loss of diversity, much more than presence of something unwanted. Unwanted stuff can always be bred out, but diversity, once lost, can never be regained once the stud book is closed.

Amy Dahl


----------



## Golden Boy

Sharon Potter said:


> My point is this: Currently, AKC considers silver a shade of chocolate, which it is not, and allows silvers to be registered as chocolate. So, suppose AKC were to change their status and not allow silvers to be registered as chocolate any longer....how would AKC know that all chocolates registered really are chocolate, and that silver breeders weren't continuing to register them as such? They would have to inspect every chocolate puppy registered. Really, as it stands now, you could register a yellow as black and AKC wouldn't know it wasn't (not that I can imagine anybody wanting to do such a thing, but there's no way for AKC to know what color a dog really is when its registered. It's all the honor system, and therein lies the failure.


Your right it is about honor or lack of. 
It just sad there's a guy on another site looking to breed his silver lab and he got beatup on line over it. I don't believe he know what he was buying when he got the pup and he is now trying to breed it.


----------



## Golden Boy

afdahl said:


> I have it on what I consider good authority that at least some of them are purebred, as "pure" as any individual in a breed that has had a closed stud book only around 100 years. That is, from Dr. Mark Neff, a UCBerkeley researcher on the Canine Genome project, who has collected reports and pedigrees from breeders who have unexpectedly had "silvers" appear in litters. "You wouldn't believe" some of the bloodlines in which they are appearing; pedigree analysis shows the presence of the allele in the breed to go far back.
> 
> I trained a black Lab sired by a silver, and he was quite a good dog. I trained a silver bitch and she was difficult, but she was reared in a home with her dam, never separated, and that by itself could account for the poor training response, so I can't infer much about silvers from that. I did think she was ugly, not because she had the fineness typical of tightly-bred dogs, but because her structure was poor--narrow chest, turned-out front legs, stuff like that. She did have a typical Lab head fwiw.
> 
> I would certainly concur that breeding selectively for any one trait decreases one's ability to select for all other traits, and that breeding for two color recessives (b and d) necessarily means intense selection for color, thereby greatly reducing selection for anything else. I also take pedigrees with a dose of salt--so many ways for the parents of a puppy not to be who they are purported to be. DNA profiling, of course, helps with that.
> 
> Taken all together, I oppose the purposeful breeding of silvers because I think part of a breeder's responsibility is to maintain the essence or definition of the breed. Granted the Lab is a mix of older breeds, but it is a mix that was created with a purpose and image in mind. Reducing, not promoting, the variability inherent in the mix, and striving toward a standard, is part of defining, creating, and maintaining the breed. On the other hand, I don't get as excited as some here about it. We have a huge market for fad dogs providing motivation to the doodle and poo and silver breeders, and unless we can educate the public, trying to counter that motivation by force is a losing proposition IMHO. Pollution of the gene pool is not something I'm worried about. As long as they are crummy dogs, nobody trying to breed for working ability or show is going to cross to them, so they will stay in their own little corner. And thanks to DNA testing, anyone who wants to eliminate the allele from their breeding stock can easily do it in one generation.
> 
> Concerns about the gene pool are more in the opposite direction--loss of diversity, much more than presence of something unwanted. Unwanted stuff can always be bred out, but diversity, once lost, can never be regained once the stud book is closed.
> 
> Amy Dahl


It just all shaddy. There's too many great labs that are of the correct color and standard to have to put up with these types of bad traits entering into the gene pool. And you're correct about educating people. But at the end of the day it's all about money. Piss Poor breeders making puppy money, the breed register getting paid for tracking a pedigree. The real loser here is the family that gets the dog and the little boy that's 12 years old that lose his best buddy way too soon. Sad Sad!!!!!


----------



## caryalsobrook

afdahl said:


> I have it on what I consider good authority that at least some of them are purebred, as "pure" as any individual in a breed that has had a closed stud book only around 100 years. That is, from Dr. Mark Neff, a UCBerkeley researcher on the Canine Genome project, who has collected reports and pedigrees from breeders who have unexpectedly had "silvers" appear in litters. "You wouldn't believe" some of the bloodlines in which they are appearing; pedigree analysis shows the presence of the allele in the breed to go far back.
> 
> I trained a black Lab sired by a silver, and he was quite a good dog. I trained a silver bitch and she was difficult, but she was reared in a home with her dam, never separated, and that by itself could account for the poor training response, so I can't infer much about silvers from that. I did think she was ugly, not because she had the fineness typical of tightly-bred dogs, but because her structure was poor--narrow chest, turned-out front legs, stuff like that. She did have a typical Lab head fwiw.
> 
> I would certainly concur that breeding selectively for any one trait decreases one's ability to select for all other traits, and that breeding for two color recessives (b and d) necessarily means intense selection for color, thereby greatly reducing selection for anything else. I also take pedigrees with a dose of salt--so many ways for the parents of a puppy not to be who they are purported to be. DNA profiling, of course, helps with that.
> 
> Taken all together, I oppose the purposeful breeding of silvers because I think part of a breeder's responsibility is to maintain the essence or definition of the breed. Granted the Lab is a mix of older breeds, but it is a mix that was created with a purpose and image in mind. Reducing, not promoting, the variability inherent in the mix, and striving toward a standard, is part of defining, creating, and maintaining the breed. On the other hand, I don't get as excited as some here about it. We have a huge market for fad dogs providing motivation to the doodle and poo and silver breeders, and unless we can educate the public, trying to counter that motivation by force is a losing proposition IMHO. Pollution of the gene pool is not something I'm worried about. As long as they are crummy dogs, nobody trying to breed for working ability or show is going to cross to them, so they will stay in their own little corner. And thanks to DNA testing, anyone who wants to eliminate the allele from their breeding stock can easily do it in one generation.
> 
> Concerns about the gene pool are more in the opposite direction--loss of diversity, much more than presence of something unwanted. Unwanted stuff can always be bred out, but diversity, once lost, can never be regained once the stud book is closed.
> 
> Amy Dahl


I don't have an opinion on the subject due to far too little knowledge to do so. I went to the UC Berkeley site and could not find Dr. Neff listed as part of the faculty nor could I find any information as to any research called Canine Genome Project. Am I missing something?


----------



## afdahl

caryalsobrook said:


> I don't have an opinion on the subject due to far too little knowledge to do so. I went to the UC Berkeley site and could not find Dr. Neff listed as part of the faculty nor could I find any information as to any research called Canine Genome Project. Am I missing something?


I googled Dr. Neff and see he has moved to the Translational Genomics Research Institute, where he is still working on canine genomics. It was a few years ago that I interviewed him for an article on color genetics, at which time he was at Berkeley. He reminded me at that time that there is no reason to assume that color is independent from temperamental and other physical traits. Mendel's Second Law, the law of independent assortment, says that it would be but we now know that Mendel's Second Law is not generally true.

The Dog Genome Project is a collaboration between researchers at many institutions. The Broad Institute lists a project under that title; whether it is the whole collaboration or not, I don't know. It's pretty interesting, though. Dogs are a potentially useful model for a lot of human diseases that have a genetic component, and the existence of many independent breeding populations in the form of different breeds, which have different frequencies of genes of interest, allows research to be meaningful with far fewer subjects than when humans are used. Thus it is cheaper and faster. A useful consequence for dog breeders is the identification of disease genes and tests to screen breeding stock.

Amy Dahl


----------



## caryalsobrook

afdahl said:


> I googled Dr. Neff and see he has moved to the Translational Genomics Research Institute, where he is still working on canine genomics. It was a few years ago that I interviewed him for an article on color genetics, at which time he was at Berkeley. He reminded me at that time that there is no reason to assume that color is independent from temperamental and other physical traits. Mendel's Second Law, the law of independent assortment, says that it would be but we now know that Mendel's Second Law is not generally true.
> 
> The Dog Genome Project is a collaboration between researchers at many institutions. The Broad Institute lists a project under that title; whether it is the whole collaboration or not, I don't know. It's pretty interesting, though. Dogs are a potentially useful model for a lot of human diseases that have a genetic component, and the existence of many independent breeding populations in the form of different breeds, which have different frequencies of genes of interest, allows research to be meaningful with far fewer subjects than when humans are used. Thus it is cheaper and faster. A useful consequence for dog breeders is the identification of disease genes and tests to screen breeding stock.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Sorry, I goggled Dr CHARLES Neff rather than Mark. However, I have found no publications by him regarding silver labs.


----------



## afdahl

caryalsobrook said:


> Sorry, I goggled Dr CHARLES Neff rather than Mark. However, I have found no publications by him regarding silver labs.


Dr. Neff's observations about the silver Lab pedigrees submitted to him was a private communication that took place during our interview. As the data he summarized were mainly confidential (see Drakehaven's post above) the material wouldn't have been publishable.

I found him credible, and am happy to publicly report on what he said and my opinion of his credibility. But I can't offer a reference apart from that.

Amy Dahl


----------



## afdahl

FinnLandR said:


> Amy, do you have a link to the article you wrote for which you interviewed him?


It was in the retriever journal but I don't believe they posted it online. Not much of what Dr. Neff said made it into the article. I think the main thing was that it is a misconception to assume that color is independent of all other traits. 

I don't even remember what year that was, but the title was something like, "the color prejudice."

Amy Dahl


----------



## Sharon Potter

Also, for anyone who wonders why so many good breeders sell on Limited registration unless they know the buyer....this is one good reason. 

When I was still breeding Labs, I started doing all limited (unless it was someone I knew) after one of my pups ended up in a silver breeder's hands (of course, they made sure to not mention that when they bought her). Fortunately, they never got a silver pup from her and my name won't ever be tied to that.


----------



## 2tall

The Canine Genome Project was the subject of a lead article in National Geographic. I read the article last year, but don't know what month or if it was even current. Regardless, it was a fascinating article that went way beyond color issues. The objective is to find ways to improve human health, but on the way they made some great observations about breeding for one trait bringing all kinds of unlooked for consequences. Anyway, I would not doubt Amy's comments for sure!


----------



## DEDEYE

metalone67 said:


> Because Fox reds carry the right genetic codes proving they are in fact a shade of yellow.
> Silvers carry a dd which is not found in labs, but only in Wiemeraners.


I will come on as a haircolorist here, and as an owner of light yellow and DARK (fox red) yellow dogs.. Genetics aside.. All the ladies on here know when they get their hair bleached, the first thing that appears is a lovely reddish tone. Keep processing and you get orange, dark gold, light gold, yellow, white.. My point is, yellow and gold are all part of red, underlying tones etc. Some ladies will come in and tell me their hair looks RED to them when it is actually Gold which is YELLOW.. Here is a pic of the puppies my dog just had.. As puppies you can see that they are all shades of yellow.. The dark ones will be red, and so on.. 

Silver is NOT a color under black or chocolate. It is its own color. We get paid as stylists to add it, or take it away.. 

There, you have it. A little morning hairdresser talk about dog haircolor.. I will leave the genetics to you all...
.


----------



## afdahl

DEDEYE said:


> There, you have it. A little morning hairdresser talk about dog haircolor.. I will leave the genetics to you all...
> .
> View attachment 17029


OK, since you asked (almost)…red hair in humans, the classic kind with fair skin and freckles, is associated with the ee genotype as in yellow Labs.

In general, the ginger/red/tan/orange/yellow/cream colors all come from phaeomelanin, a pigment that is chemically distinct from the eumelanin that gives black, brown, and gray/blue/silver. It sounds as though bleach takes out the eumelanin first, and the phaeomelanin more slowly.

Amy Dahl


----------



## Julie R.

afdahl said:


> OK, since you asked (almost)…red hair in humans, the classic kind with fair skin and freckles, is associated with the ee genotype as in yellow Labs.
> 
> ...
> 
> Amy Dahl


I think she was talking about colors not found in nature


----------



## shawninthesticks

afdahl said:


> OK, since you asked (almost)…red hair in humans, the classic kind with fair skin and freckles, is associated with the ee genotype as in yellow Labs.
> 
> In general, the ginger/red/tan/orange/yellow/cream colors all come from phaeomelanin, a pigment that is chemically distinct from the eumelanin that gives black, brown, and gray/blue/silver. It sounds as though bleach takes out the eumelanin first, and the phaeomelanin more slowly.
> 
> Amy Dahl


So I'm yellow factored!?...I'll add that to my stud page


----------



## DEDEYE

afdahl said:


> OK, since you asked (almost)…red hair in humans, the classic kind with fair skin and freckles, is associated with the ee genotype as in yellow Labs.
> 
> In general, the ginger/red/tan/orange/yellow/cream colors all come from phaeomelanin, a pigment that is chemically distinct from the eumelanin that gives black, brown, and gray/blue/silver. It sounds as though bleach takes out the eumelanin first, and the phaeomelanin more slowly.
> 
> Amy Dahl





Julie R. said:


> I think she was talking about colors not found in nature


LOL A little bit of both. You girls have a fab day...


----------



## leo455

I have read most of this thread, I agree Black Yellow Chocolate is all the colors. I have seen another breed or breed type that is crossed with labs. That is American Pit Bull Terrior. They have Diluted genes also. Seal, Blue, and Tri color. I am no genetis just say'n.

Tony


----------



## Nicole

afdahl said:


> I have it on what I consider good authority that at least some of them are purebred, as "pure" as any individual in a breed that has had a closed stud book only around 100 years.


Unless you and/or your good authority actually wants to show proof (pictures of dogs, pedigrees and dna parentage tests), it's no better than hearsay.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

afdahl said:


> I have it on what I consider good authority that at least some of them are purebred, as "pure" as any individual in a breed that has had a closed stud book only around 100 years. That is, from Dr. Mark Neff, a UCBerkeley researcher on the Canine Genome project, who has collected reports and pedigrees from breeders who have unexpectedly had "silvers" appear in litters. "You wouldn't believe" some of the bloodlines in which they are appearing; pedigree analysis shows the presence of the allele in the breed to go far back.
> 
> I trained a black Lab sired by a silver, and he was quite a good dog. I trained a silver bitch and she was difficult, but she was reared in a home with her dam, never separated, and that by itself could account for the poor training response, so I can't infer much about silvers from that. I did think she was ugly, not because she had the fineness typical of tightly-bred dogs, but because her structure was poor--narrow chest, turned-out front legs, stuff like that. She did have a typical Lab head fwiw.
> 
> I would certainly concur that breeding selectively for any one trait decreases one's ability to select for all other traits, and that breeding for two color recessives (b and d) necessarily means intense selection for color, thereby greatly reducing selection for anything else. I also take pedigrees with a dose of salt--so many ways for the parents of a puppy not to be who they are purported to be. DNA profiling, of course, helps with that.
> 
> Taken all together, I oppose the purposeful breeding of silvers because I think part of a breeder's responsibility is to maintain the essence or definition of the breed. Granted the Lab is a mix of older breeds, but it is a mix that was created with a purpose and image in mind. Reducing, not promoting, the variability inherent in the mix, and striving toward a standard, is part of defining, creating, and maintaining the breed. On the other hand, I don't get as excited as some here about it. We have a huge market for fad dogs providing motivation to the doodle and poo and silver breeders, and unless we can educate the public, trying to counter that motivation by force is a losing proposition IMHO. Pollution of the gene pool is not something I'm worried about. As long as they are crummy dogs, nobody trying to breed for working ability or show is going to cross to them, so they will stay in their own little corner. And thanks to DNA testing, anyone who wants to eliminate the allele from their breeding stock can easily do it in one generation.
> 
> Concerns about the gene pool are more in the opposite direction--loss of diversity, much more than presence of something unwanted. Unwanted stuff can always be bred out, but diversity, once lost, can never be regained once the stud book is closed.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Hi
I really believe the answer is DNA testing. That will determine if it's a lab or an outcrossing.
I had DNA test done on myself, very informative (I am not a lab):razz:


----------



## Julie R.

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hi
> I really believe the answer is DNA testing. That will determine if it's a lab or an outcrossing.
> I had DNA test done on myself, very informative (I am not a lab):razz:


Maybe in the future, but I don't think the DNA tests available now are sophisticated enough to detect a skeleton in the closet if it's several generations back. The guy who bred the Weims and Labs and started the whole silver frenzy in the late 80s, from Crist Culo kennels, at one point offered a $100,000 reward for anyone that could "prove" his dogs weren't Labs. Back then, all a DNA test could prove was that the parents were those stated on the pedigree, and even that only if both parents were available for testing. You could have a registered "Lab" that had grandparent(s) that were Lab x Weim crosses and DNA wouldn't catch it. Even with all the advances, I doubt you could prove with today's DNA testing, that there are other breeds 4 or 5 generations back in a pedigree.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

Julie R. said:


> Maybe in the future, but I don't think the DNA tests available now are sophisticated enough to detect a skeleton in the closet if it's several generations back. The guy who bred the Weims and Labs and started the whole silver frenzy in the late 80s, from Crist Culo kennels, at one point offered a $100,000 reward for anyone that could "prove" his dogs weren't Labs. Back then, all a DNA test could prove was that the parents were those stated on the pedigree, and even that only if both parents were available for testing. You could have a registered "Lab" that had grandparent(s) that were Lab x Weim crosses and DNA wouldn't catch it. Even with all the advances, I doubt you could prove with today's DNA testing, that there are other breeds 4 or 5 generations back in a pedigree.


That may be the case, I am skilled trades at Fords, not a genetics expert. I will say, I was amazed to find out thru DNA testing , how far back they can map out human DNA. In my case, it would seem 75,000 +


----------



## copterdoc

Jeffrey Towler said:


> That may be the case, I am skilled trades at Fords, not a genetics expert. I will say, I was amazed to find out thru DNA testing , how far back they can map out human DNA. In my case, it would seem 75,000 +


 Even "silver" labs are still dogs.
That's what a DNA test will tell you.

I don't think many people understand what a DNA test, tests.

Each Parent has a pair of Alleles in each Locus of it's DNA and it gives one of these to each of it's offspring. These Alleles are either Dominant or Recessive.

Each Locus is an "address" to a "switch" that controls something like coat color.

By looking at the Alleles in several Loci of an animal, and comparing them to the Alleles in the same Loci of a potential Parent, the DNA can be matched. Or, show that a match doesn't exist.

For instance, if a pup is eeBBDD, both Parents would have to have at LEAST one recessive in the E locus. If the DNA of the dog that you are looking at is EE, that dog is NOT the pup's Parent.

That's just looking at one Locus, and it ruled out a whole lot of potential Parents. 
However, in order to determine that a specific dog IS the Parent, you would need to match at many more Loci.


----------



## Jeffrey Towler

copterdoc said:


> Even "silver" labs are still dogs.
> That's what a DNA test will tell you.
> 
> I don't think many people understand what a DNA test, tests.
> 
> Each Parent has a pair of Alleles in each Locus of it's DNA and it gives one of these to each of it's offspring. These Alleles are either Dominant or Recessive.
> 
> Each Locus is an "address" to a "switch" that controls something like coat color.
> 
> By looking at the Alleles in several Loci of an animal, and comparing them to the Alleles in the same Loci of a potential Parent, the DNA can be matched. Or, show that a match doesn't exist.
> 
> For instance, if a pup is eeBBDD, both Parents would have to have at LEAST one recessive in the E locus. If the DNA of the dog that you are looking at is EE, that dog is NOT the pup's Parent.
> 
> That's just looking at one Locus, and it ruled out a whole lot of potential Parents.
> However, in order to determine that a specific dog IS the Parent, you would need to match at many more Loci.


Ok, that makes sense. I hope that down the road, someone can come up with a reliable test for breed determination.


----------



## Jere

copterdoc said:


> Even "silver" labs are still dogs.
> That's what a DNA test will tell you.
> 
> I don't think many people understand what a DNA test, tests.
> 
> Each Parent has a pair of Alleles in each Locus of it's DNA and it gives one of these to each of it's offspring. These Alleles are either Dominant or Recessive.
> 
> *Each Locus is an "address" to a "switch" that controls something like coat color.*
> 
> By looking at the Alleles in several Loci of an animal, and comparing them to the Alleles in the same Loci of a potential Parent, the DNA can be matched. Or, show that a match doesn't exist.
> 
> For instance, if a pup is eeBBDD, both Parents would have to have at LEAST one recessive in the E locus. If the DNA of the dog that you are looking at is EE, that dog is NOT the pup's Parent.
> 
> That's just looking at one Locus, and it ruled out a whole lot of potential Parents.
> *However, in order to determine that a specific dog IS the Parent, you would need to match at many more Loci.*


Referencing the first *bolded* statement above: This is not generally true. Some do, some don't. But it doesn't make any difference here.

Referencing the second *bolded* statement: This is what a typical parentage DNA test does, as far as I know. Back in 2011, when the last AKC DNA profile I saw was run for comparison to the putative parents of a litter, they were using a collection of "markers" called the SuperPlex-G Panel. This was a collection of 13 "Markers." These "markers" were not genes per se, but are inherited the same way genes are. And each "marker" can have several distinct forms (as many as five for some of the "markers" in the examples they supplied with the test results) just as the alleles of a gene can. 

Failure of match of pup to parents (an "exclusion) at one "marker" does not rule out parentage but at two or more does - according to the AKC (The pup I have the profile for shows one "exclusion" but its phenotype (almost) certainly supports parentage by the two claimed dogs.)

At that time I couldn't find any definitive information on the "markers" they were using. They are probably "proprietary." There may be patents.

If there is interest in the full brochure, I suggest email to [email protected]. It is protected by copyright so I won't post it here. Google 'MMI genomics "canine heritage"' to get some more information as well. I'm not endorsing any product or service - just pointing to information.

Jere


----------



## Hunt'EmUp

copterdoc said:


> Even "silver" labs are still dogs.
> That's what a DNA test will tell you..


There are many companies offering a DNA breed identification tests it is mostly done for those who wish to see what kind've mix their dogs are, and what disease they maybe prone to later. A few studies have been on going to correctly identify shelter dogs, who before have been entirely based on what the pup looks like, which unsurprisingly doesn't hold up when genetics are tested. The wisdom panel is the probably the most well-known and most selective. While I'm sure that the test has limitations, it can identify a 100% pure-bred, vs. a cross several generations back for all the AKC recognized breeds, and a few more. If I had a Silver, I'd probably test it, if it came back 100% Labrador, I'd have something to show people. Still if the dd gene is a marker that doesn't identify as Lab you might have an issue, but if it's the only wacky gene out of all of them tested you've got a pretty good argument for saying it was hidden in the Lab genome.

http://www.wisdompanel.com/why_test_your_dog/

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10888700902956151#.UuaSQfvTlpQ


----------



## copterdoc

Hunt'EmUp said:


> There are many companies offering a DNA breed identification tests.....


 And they are all scams.


----------



## copterdoc

ALL breeds of dogs were created from other breeds of dogs.

Every single one of them.

A breed is "complete" when we have selectively removed ALL of the Recessive Alleles and/or ALL of the Dominant Alleles from specific Loci in the dogs that fall within the registry.

That way, it's not possible for two dogs within the registry to produce offspring that express a Dominant or Recessive trait that is not found within the breed.

No matter what two dogs are bred within the registry, you will never spontaneously produce a Recessive, or Dominant Allele, where neither Parent has one.

These traits are not found within a breed, for the simple reason that they were intentionally removed from the breed.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp

copterdoc said:


> And they are all scams.


Hmm such scams seem to have a lot of science behind it, all analyzed by computer algorithms etc and several noteworthy publications. They even address the foundation breed question. All based on the same technology and the same little gene sequences used identify EIC-CNM, any other heritable trait, perhaps all genetic science is just a scam. But until that is conclusively proven, I'll continue to advise people to do their own research 

http://www.wisdompanel.com/why_test_your_dog/faqs/


----------



## copterdoc

Pseudoscience ain't Science.

They are ALL scams.


----------



## gdluck

copterdoc said:


> ALL breeds of dogs were created from other breeds of dogs.
> 
> Every single one of them.
> 
> A breed is "complete" when we have selectively removed ALL of the Recessive Alleles and/or ALL of the Dominant Alleles from specific Loci in the dogs that fall within the registry.
> 
> That way, it's not possible for two dogs within the registry to produce offspring that express a Dominant or Recessive trait that is not found within the breed.
> 
> No matter what two dogs are bred within the registry, you will never spontaneously produce a Recessive, or Dominant Allele, where neither Parent has one.
> 
> These traits are not found within a breed, for the simple reason that they were intentionally removed from the breed.


I don't know squat about genetics or breeding but I do question how this could have been done considering breeds were created over a hundred years ago when they didn't know what DNA was. This "silver" gene was obviously in the wolf from which all dogs derive. How could they say FOR CERTAIN that there was not a single Labradoe that carried it?


----------



## copterdoc

gdluck said:


> ....How could they say FOR CERTAIN that there was not a single Labradoe that carried it?


 They couldn't. And they still can't.

That's why when they produce something "weird", that doesn't fall within the breed standard, reputable and responsible breeders don't keep intentionally reproducing it "under the radar" of the breed's Parent Club. 

THEY STOP PRODUCING IT.


----------



## Jere

copterdoc said:


> ALL breeds of dogs were created from other breeds of dogs.
> 
> Every single one of them.
> 
> *A breed is "complete" when we have selectively removed ALL of the Recessive Alleles and/or ALL of the Dominant Alleles from specific Loci in the dogs that fall within the registry.*
> 
> That way, it's not possible for two dogs within the registry to produce offspring that express a Dominant or Recessive trait that is not found within the breed.
> 
> *No matter what two dogs are bred within the registry, you will never spontaneously produce a Recessive, or Dominant Allele, where neither Parent has one.*
> 
> These traits are not found within a breed, for the simple reason that they were intentionally removed from the breed.



First bolded: This is an extreme position not present in the rules of any registry I've heard of. Would you provide reference, please? One might even suggest, since dogs in general share such a high percentage of genes, you're nearly insisting on a "breed" be a collection of clones derived from the general dog population by evolution by artificial selective breeding. I will say this with essentially complete certainty. No breed on the planet satisfies your criteria.

Second bolded: Apparently you have not heard of mutations? One characteristic of a "breed" is that it "breed true." i.e. breeding within the breed population produces no (or very few?) phenotypically non-conforming offspring. I suspect one could define Black Labrador retriever breed as being BBEE black (not BbEE, or BBEe) (in fact I know at least one rather successful Lab field champion owner who insists on this) should one so desire. But over time one is certain to find yellows and chocolates produced as result of mutations the breeding program can not control. If you push this argument far enough - to the point a breed IS a population of essential clones, there is no way to "improve the breed", gain higher performance for instance, by selectively breeding within the population because there is no variation to select from.

Jere


----------



## copterdoc

Jere said:


> Would you provide reference, please?


 I don't need to. 
The answer is self evident.

If there are random Recessive and Dominant Alleles available in the Loci that DEFINE the breed, there is no such thing as a breed.

These dogs of specific breeds do not produce clones of themselves, because among the thousands and thousands of Loci that do not define the breed, there is plenty of genetic diversity.

While it is theoretically possible for a mutation to randomly occur, it's infinitely less likely that a EE dog produced an ee pup, than it is that there was simply a "fox in the henhouse".


----------



## afdahl

In addition to Jere's nice, clear explanations let me point out that, prior to DNA testing, it was not feasible to breed out an unwanted recessive. As the incidence gets lower and lower in a population, carriers are bred to one another more and more rarely. "Affecteds" or double-recessives almost never show up. It would be possible to maintain a few affecteds to use in test crosses, but test crosses are subject to statistics, meaning that a single test cross gives only a probability, never a certainty, that the parent in question is homozygous dominant. You can increase that probability with more test crosses, but taken to extremes an animal's whole reproductive life would be taken up with test crosses. You have the expense of breeding plus all of the unwanted, known carriers to dispose of--all for something so rare it effectively never crops up anyway. Breeders are going to put their effort into some of the other, many traits that are important to the quality of the animal and the definition of the breed.

Amy DAhl


----------



## afdahl

Oh, and just for fun--back when I was researching my color genetics articles, I believe I found a paper that concluded that Labrador E is a mutation of e. Neither one is the wild-type allele. Because of the nature of the protein coded for, mutations occur relatively readily, which is why we see so many mosaics. Well, that and the Internet!

Amy Dahl


----------



## Renee P.

When I was a kid I had pet gerbils. They were all agouti color---your basic brown. That's all there was back then.

A generation later, I go to the pet store to get my child a gerbil. Guess what, gerbils come in all shades nowadays. Black, white with black skin, fox red, black and white, all kinds of pretty colors to choose from. Some had long hair, some had short hair. 

I was amazed. I am guessing that the genes for all this variation were present in the gerbil population of 1970, and that through selective breeding the new varieties appeared.

Could something similar have happened in Labrador retrievers? That the variant was present but very rare, and through selective breeding became more common? I don't think so, but never say never.

The mutation that causes the dilute coat color appears to be the same in all breeds of dogs, and appears to have existed prior to the domestication(s) of dogs (http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S75.short). It is unlikely that the mutation causing the silver coat color in labradors appeared after the breed was established.


----------



## afdahl

mitty said:


> When I was a kid I had pet gerbils. They were all agouti color---your basic brown. That's all there was back then.
> 
> A generation later, I go to the pet store to get my child a gerbil. Guess what, gerbils come in all shades nowadays. Black, white with black skin, fox red, black and white, all kinds of pretty colors to choose from. Some had long hair, some had short hair.
> 
> I was amazed. I am guessing that the genes for all this variation were present in the gerbil population of 1970, and that through selective breeding the new varieties appeared.
> 
> Could something similar have happened in Labrador retrievers? That the variant was present but very rare, and through selective breeding became more common? I don't think so, but never say never.
> 
> The mutation that causes the dilute coat color appears to be the same in all breeds of dogs, and appears to have existed prior to the domestication(s) of dogs (http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S75.short). It is unlikely that the mutation causing the silver coat color in labradors appeared after the breed was established.


I think that experiment with the Russian fur foxes is instructive. They rerun a documentary every so often--can't remember if it's Nova or what show, but look out for it. The key point is that the researchers began selecting one group of foxes for minimum aggression and fear toward humans, and another group for maximum fear and aggression. The one group eventually became quite tame, like domestic dogs--and with the tameness, a bunch of other traits showed up: splashes of white, other colors never before seen (and this was a population that had been bred in captivity for many generations), lop ears, curly tails. Someone on the show expressed the opinion that selection for "tameness" seemed to promote a tendency for mutations to occur in these other traits. I infer, but am not certain, that they ruled out the possibility that greater inbreeding in the tame group was causing rare recessives to surface (of course in dogs, lop ears are dominant, so the gene wouldn't be hidden).

The takeaway is that perhaps all of these traits weren't present in the ancestral wolf population, but are a by-product of domestication and somehow associated with the loss of fear. Interesting stuff.

Amy Dahl


----------



## Renee P.

afdahl said:


> I think that experiment with the Russian fur foxes is instructive. They rerun a documentary every so often--can't remember if it's Nova or what show, but look out for it. The key point is that the researchers began selecting one group of foxes for minimum aggression and fear toward humans, and another group for maximum fear and aggression. The one group eventually became quite tame, like domestic dogs--and with the tameness, a bunch of other traits showed up: splashes of white, other colors never before seen (and this was a population that had been bred in captivity for many generations), lop ears, curly tails. Someone on the show expressed the opinion that selection for "tameness" seemed to promote a tendency for mutations to occur in these other traits. I infer, but am not certain, that they ruled out the possibility that greater inbreeding in the tame group was causing rare recessives to surface (of course in dogs, lop ears are dominant, so the gene wouldn't be hidden).
> 
> The takeaway is that perhaps all of these traits weren't present in the ancestral wolf population, but are a by-product of domestication and somehow associated with the loss of fear. Interesting stuff.
> 
> Amy Dahl


I love the fox experiment! I thought of slapping this up before:

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/issue.aspx?id=813&y=0&no=&content=true&page=3&css=prin


----------



## Dave Plesko

mitty said:


> When I was a kid I had pet gerbils. They were all agouti color---your basic brown. That's all there was back then.
> 
> A generation later, I go to the pet store to get my child a gerbil. Guess what, gerbils come in all shades nowadays. Black, white with black skin, fox red, black and white, all kinds of pretty colors to choose from. Some had long hair, some had short hair.
> 
> I was amazed. I am guessing that the genes for all this variation were present in the gerbil population of 1970, and that through selective breeding the new varieties appeared.
> 
> Could something similar have happened in Labrador retrievers? That the variant was present but very rare, and through selective breeding became more common? I don't think so, but never say never.
> 
> The mutation that causes the dilute coat color appears to be the same in all breeds of dogs, and appears to have existed prior to the domestication(s) of dogs (http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S75.short). It is unlikely that the mutation causing the silver coat color in labradors appeared after the breed was established.


Do you have to register a Fox Red Gerbil as Yellow?


----------



## Aussie

As a matter of course I have all my imported genetics...ie semen DNA retested, which includes color ...D also.

None have been carriers..of any other color than black and yellow. Boring!


----------



## Jere

copterdoc said:


> *I don't need to.
> The answer is self evident.
> 
> If there are random Recessive and Dominant Alleles available in the Loci that DEFINE the breed, there is no such thing as a breed.*
> 
> *Perhaps you would be so good as to name a single breed which you consider "complete" by your definition?*
> 
> These dogs of specific breeds do not produce clones of themselves, because among the thousands and thousands of Loci that do not define the breed, there is plenty of genetic diversity.
> 
> *While it is theoretically possible for a mutation to randomly occur, it's infinitely less likely that a EE dog produced an ee pup, than it is that there was simply a "fox in the henhouse".*
> 
> *It is not necessary to go from EE to ee in a single mutation step to end up with yellow pups produced within an originally BBEE pure black population. As Amy outlined in general, the occurrance of a single E -> e mutation in a single puppy can be propagated and spred through the population for many generations before an ee shows up. The difference between E and e in Labs has been reported to be a single point mutation in the melanocyte-stimulating hormone receptor (MC1R) at the E locus.* This is a rather simple mutation which imvolves the conversion of a single incidence of one of the four DNA bases which make up each strand of the DNA double helix and comprise the genetic code to another. ( C --> T, or cytosine --> thymine) It appears to be a rather likely mutation considering its simplicity and other factors! Once it occurs a single time, it is only a matter of time (breedings) before an ee appears in some breeding! IOW, one mutation from E -> e in a population of pure BBEE dogs GUARANTEES the future appearance of yellow (ee) dogs as long as the mutated pup and its offspring carriers carriers of e are bred.
> 
> In Labrador retrievers the mutation (allele) responsible for EIC is inherited by the same mechanism as the basic coat color alleles (autosomal recessive). While it is a significantly more complex mutation than E -> e it was certainly spread through the population fairly easily.
> 
> The dilution recessive, d, may also result from a simple single base mutation as e does but involving the other two DNA bases, guanine and adenine, where A mutates into G. See: Drögemüller C, U. Philipp, B. Haase, A-R Günzel-Apel & T Leeb. "A noncoding melanophilin gene (MLPH) SNP at the splice donor of exon 1 represents a candidate causal mutation for coat color dilution in dogs." Journal of Heredity 98(5):468-473 (2007) (Not specific to "silver Labs" but may be a hint to what's going on with them.) *


*
*See: "Identification of a premature stop codon in the melanocyte-stimulating hormone receptor gene (MC1R) in Labrador and Golden retrievers with yellow coat colour," R E Everts, J Rothuizen, B A van Oost; Animal Genetics, Volume 31, Issue 3, pages 194–199, June 2000

Jere*


----------



## Micah Duffy

I decided to read the whole silver labrador website posted here earlier. I found my favorite part

Board Members:
Chairman: Cheryl Flynn of Silver Rain Labradors
[email protected]
Vice Chairman: Odin Harvell
Secretary: Pidge Daniel
[email protected]
Treasurer: Robert Stoeberl
Parliamentarian: [email protected]

Directors:
Director of Membership: [email protected]
Director of Member Communications: [email protected]
Director of Public Communications: [email protected]
Director of Fundraising: [email protected]
Director of Genetics: 
Director of Education: [email protected]
Webmaster:
[email protected]

Director of Genentics......LMFAO since this whole post has been on genetics well then nuff said.


----------



## copterdoc

I can't reply directly to Jere's last post, due to the way that it was quoted.
In answer to the question. All of them.

If you are looking at spontaneous mutation as the basis for the "silver" Lab, I say that you are hearing hoofbeats, and looking for Zebras.

And it doesn't matter how the Recessive d came to be in these lines anyway. 
These Breeders are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it.

If they honestly came across it by accident, they would have neutered the Sire, spayed the Dam, and not registered the litter.

That's not what they did.

They bred Daughters to Sires, Dams to Sons, and Brothers to Sisters. And they continued to register the offspring that was produced. 

They INTENTIONALLY reproduced it.
For the almighty dollar.


----------



## afdahl

copterdoc said:


> I can't reply directly to Jere's last post, due to the way that it was quoted.
> In answer to the question. All of them.
> 
> If you are looking at spontaneous mutation as the basis for the "silver" Lab, I say that you are hearing hoofbeats, and looking for Zebras.
> 
> And it doesn't matter how the Recessive d came to be in these lines anyway.
> These Breeders are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it.
> 
> If they honestly came across it by accident, they would have neutered the Sire, spayed the Dam, and not registered the litter.
> 
> That's not what they did.
> 
> They bred Daughters to Sires, Dams to Sons, and Brothers to Sisters. And they continued to register the offspring that was produced.
> 
> They INTENTIONALLY reproduced it.
> For the almighty dollar.


Two things.

One, breeders and stud owners may have a huge amount invested in those sires and dams, not only in those individuals but in the line behind them, of which they may be the primary representative (in as much as we are all limited in the number of dogs we keep). It is not realistic to cashier a whole line, or even one breeding animal, throwing away all of that selected and proven quality, just because the animal is discovered to carry one unwanted recessive. I forget the estimated average number of recessive defects carried by each dog--eight maybe, or fifteen. It is a fundamental premise of breeding that there are no perfect dogs; in selection we balance the good and choose what bad to accept, in trying to produce better dogs overall.

A typical and practical solution would be to avoid repeating the breeding, choosing a different stud for that bitch next time.

Two, it takes all kinds to make up a world. I personally don't suffer much damage as a consequence of people's breeding silvers. I do keep trying to educate dog owners and prospective puppy buyers in my own way (trying to avoid being preachy). As long as there is a big pool of would-be owners primed to go for the next fad, they will fall prey to the hype for block heads, white Labs, white Goldens, silver Labs, English or British Labs (I acknowledge that our British neighbors breed some quality dogs, but I've seen some real crap hyped under those labels), and if not those, then for Labradoodles or some other "designer" breed, or, worse still, they'll buy a Chesapeake thinking it'll prove them "different" and macho all at the same time, and it'll end up in a shelter or worse. Removing silver Labs from the picture isn't going to save those folks from themselves.

I'm not worried about silver breeders polluting the "gene pool," either. Ask yourself this: would any breeder that you would ever consider, ever breed to a dog that had untitled, inbred "chocolate" dogs with a suspect kennel name in its pedigree? Dogs don't just "get into" pedigrees; people choose them based on their breeding priorities.

Amy Dahl


----------



## Sharon Potter

afdahl said:


> I'm not worried about silver breeders polluting the "gene pool," either. Ask yourself this: would any breeder that you would ever consider, ever breed to a dog that had untitled, inbred "chocolate" dogs with a suspect kennel name in its pedigree? Dogs don't just "get into" pedigrees; people choose them based on their breeding priorities.
> Amy Dahl


I can't think of any reputable breeder that would introduce lines like those. However, what we have to watch for is those folks wanting to buy a chocolate puppy from a good breeder in the hope of it producing silver when crossed back to their inbred pedigrees. That's one really good reason to sell only on limited registration unless it's someone you know is responsible. 

And with the Krazy Kolor Breeders, be it white Labs, gray Labs, English cream goldens or whatever, their breeding priorities tend toward "It has reproductive organs and is the right color."


----------



## copterdoc

afdahl said:


> Two things.
> 
> One, breeders and stud owners may have a huge amount invested in those sires and dams, not only in those individuals but in the line behind them, of which they may be the primary representative (in as much as we are all limited in the number of dogs we keep). It is not realistic to cashier a whole line, or even one breeding animal, throwing away all of that selected and proven quality, just because the animal is discovered to carry one unwanted recessive. I forget the estimated average number of recessive defects carried by each dog--eight maybe, or fifteen. It is a fundamental premise of breeding that there are no perfect dogs; in selection we balance the good and choose what bad to accept, in trying to produce better dogs overall.
> 
> A typical and practical solution would be to avoid repeating the breeding, choosing a different stud for that bitch next time.
> 
> Two, it takes all kinds to make up a world. I personally don't suffer much damage as a consequence of people's breeding silvers. I do keep trying to educate dog owners and prospective puppy buyers in my own way (trying to avoid being preachy). As long as there is a big pool of would-be owners primed to go for the next fad, they will fall prey to the hype for block heads, white Labs, white Goldens, silver Labs, English or British Labs (I acknowledge that our British neighbors breed some quality dogs, but I've seen some real crap hyped under those labels), and if not those, then for Labradoodles or some other "designer" breed, or, worse still, they'll buy a Chesapeake thinking it'll prove them "different" and macho all at the same time, and it'll end up in a shelter or worse. Removing silver Labs from the picture isn't going to save those folks from themselves.
> 
> I'm not worried about silver breeders polluting the "gene pool," either. Ask yourself this: would any breeder that you would ever consider, ever breed to a dog that had untitled, inbred "chocolate" dogs with a suspect kennel name in its pedigree? Dogs don't just "get into" pedigrees; people choose them based on their breeding priorities.
> 
> Amy Dahl


 I'm not afraid of the gene pool being "polluted".
I'm afraid that these Breeders are going to succeed in destroying the Registry.

They have an agenda. 
And they are successfully striving towards achieving it.
They want dilute Labrador Retrievers to be recognized and accepted by the LRC.

The way that things are now, there is NOTHING in place that is effective at stopping them.


----------



## copterdoc

Their position is that they don't care about anybody else.

Screw the Registry.
Screw the LRC.
Screw you.
Screw me.

They want dilute Labrador Retrievers to BE within the Breed Standard. No matter what anybody else says.

And they are eventually going to get what they want.


----------



## Sharon Potter

copterdoc said:


> I'm not afraid of the gene pool being "polluted".
> I'm afraid that these Breeders are going to succeed in destroying the Registry.
> 
> They have an agenda.
> And they are successfully striving towards achieving it.
> They want dilute Labrador Retrievers to be recognized and accepted by the LRC.
> 
> The way that things are now, there is NOTHING in place that is effective at stopping them.


They aren't making any headway at all, and there is nothing in place that is helping them either. Their marketing is to unsuspecting suckers who haven't done their homework and buy something because it's "different". What's stopping them is the lack of responsibility and quality, and until they get a person or two on the board of the LRC, they don't stand a chance....and I'm thinking that hell will freeze over before that happens.


----------



## copterdoc

Sharon Potter said:


> They aren't making any headway at all, and there is nothing in place that is helping them either. Their marketing is to unsuspecting suckers who haven't done their homework and buy something because it's "different". What's stopping them is the lack of responsibility and quality, and until they get a person or two on the board of the LRC, they don't stand a chance....and I'm thinking that hell will freeze over before that happens.


 Don't be a fool.

There are now AKC registered dilute carriers successfully competing in BOTH the ring AND the field.


----------



## Sharon Potter

copterdoc said:


> Don't be a fool.
> 
> There are now AKC registered dilute carriers successfully competing in BOTH the ring AND the field.


No need for name calling. 

In the show ring? Silver is a DQ. Names of these winning dogs, please. 

And in the field, I know there is at least one or two MH and a handful of JH....most of the websites I've seen advertise a dog that has it's first JH pass as a champion in the field.

Paying for an entry and showing up does not equal "sucessfully competing".


----------



## afdahl

To me, "successfully competing" means earning CH, FC, and/or AFC. And I agree, someone whose best claim to fame is that a properly-colored offspring of their inbred mismarks has, say, an MH or a class ribbon in a dog show is a long way from a seat (much less a majority) on the LRC board.

There are lots of things that worry me more!

Amy Dahl


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## Bridget Bodine

afdahl said:


> I'm not worried about silver breeders polluting the "gene pool," either. Ask yourself this: would any breeder that you would ever consider, ever breed to a dog that had untitled, inbred "chocolate" dogs with a suspect kennel name in its pedigree? Dogs don't just "get into" pedigrees; people choose them based on their breeding priorities.
> 
> Amy Dahl


 I am worried about pollution, not this generation or even the next few, but what happens when these dogs do end up 4 or 5 generations back? Do YOU know every dog in your pedigrees? What happens when one of these dogs produces something nice, who produces something nice , etc.
I am very worried ...


----------



## copterdoc

Sharon Potter said:


> No need for name calling.
> 
> In the show ring? Silver is a DQ......


 I didn't call names. I said "don't be."
And a carrier isn't silver. But, they can produce it.


----------



## afdahl

Bridget Bodine said:


> I am worried about pollution, not this generation or even the next few, but what happens when these dogs do end up 4 or 5 generations back? Do YOU know every dog in your pedigrees? What happens when one of these dogs produces something nice, who produces something nice , etc.
> I am very worried ...


Dogs in the fifth generation, i.e. the first that doesn't show on a four-generation pedigree, contribute on average 1/32 of the genetic makeup of a dog. That nice dog has a 1/16 probability of carrying one of the fifth-generation ancestor's two d alleles. As a Breeder of Merit, I get the six-generation online research pedigrees for free. In Labs, most of the dogs in pedigrees are well-known. Where I start seeing untitled bitches I don't know, I just order the research pedigree on that animal. Even if you have to pay $12 for the pedigree, what's $12 compared to everything else you put into trying to breed good dogs?

Yes, that 1/16 probability could turn out to be a carrier and could turn out to both perform and produce like Lean Mac. And then we'd have a huge increase in the prevalence of d. It could happen. Our tendency to stampede to popular sires is going to bite us in the butt one way or another; maybe it would be a good thing if the people who remain stubbornly ignorant of population genetics were shocked by the widespread appearance of a disqualifying color--as opposed to the less visible loss of essential viability genes.

Amy Dahl


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## copterdoc

afdahl said:


> .......maybe it would be a good thing if the people who remain stubbornly ignorant of population genetics were shocked by the widespread appearance of a disqualifying color--as opposed to the less visible loss of essential viability genes......


 Maybe.

But, nobody is intentionally selecting against, and successfully registering dogs lacking those essential viability genes.


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## Sharon Potter

copterdoc said:


> I didn't call names. I said "don't be."
> And a carrier isn't silver. But, they can produce it.


Names and accomplishments of these carriers, please.


----------



## copterdoc

Sharon Potter said:


> Names and accomplishments of these carriers, please.


 I don't know. The only ones that do know, are the ones that are deliberately doing it.

Ask Ironman. 

You probably won't get an honest answer though, because everything that these Breeders stand for is based on lies.


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## afdahl

copterdoc said:


> I didn't call names. I said "don't be."


Ooooo, plausible deniability! You could be in politics.

Copterdoc, if you check the Rules of the Internet, you might confirm to whom casual readers are most likely to assign an epithet when it is used in that fashion. It's usually not the target the user had in mind….

Amy Dahl


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## copterdoc

I'm way too honest to be in politics.

I tell it like I believe it is.


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## afdahl

copterdoc said:


> Maybe.
> 
> But, nobody is intentionally selecting against, and successfully registering dogs lacking those essential viability genes.


I care a lot more about the effect than about trying to pass judgment on what others are doing. Down the road, I'd much rather have four accepted colors in a healthy breed than three accepted colors in a breed that rarely lives long enough to fully train for competition.

Amy Dahl


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## copterdoc

afdahl said:


> I care a lot more about the effect than about trying to pass judgment on what others are doing. Down the road, I'd much rather have four accepted colors in a healthy breed than three accepted colors in a breed that rarely lives long enough to fully train for competition.
> 
> Amy Dahl


 It wouldn't be four accepted colors. It would be twenty seven. Only six of which would be distinguishable without genetic testing

See post #21


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## afdahl

copterdoc said:


> It wouldn't be four accepted colors. It would be twenty seven. Only six of which would be distinguishable without genetic testing
> 
> See post #21


Can you describe those twenty-seven colors? Because to the best of my imagination I am only coming up with four: black, yellow, chocolate, and silver.

Another question for all of those who get worked up about silver Labradors: Do you feel the same way about chocolates? As I understand the history, they were once frowned upon and I've heard that many chocolate puppies never saw the light of day.

Amy Dahl


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## copterdoc

afdahl said:


> Can you describe those twenty-seven colors? Because to the best of my imagination I am only coming up with four: black, yellow, chocolate, and silver.


 Again, see post #21.

Adding another color, automatically increases the accepted options X3.

There are already nine possibles.


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## swliszka

Yes Amy not only chocolates were frowned upon but also yellows, If not for our Canadian neighbours , ehh.. who pursued chocolates in that netherland time period we would not have the quality we have now. I speak from thirty seven years of field trial efforts. We must always remember to breed only for color is folly and with a closed registry w/ intense breeding to "top" males we have some problems.
If you can't cull don't breed or at least neuter.


----------



## afdahl

copterdoc said:


> Again, see post #21.
> 
> Adding another color, automatically increases the accepted options X3.
> 
> There are already nine possibles.


I did look at post #21. It is hard to say anything constructive about the post. GIGO.

There are currently three accepted Labrador colors. Ask any breeder or puppy buyer you know to show you a registration application, or read the breed standard. If silver breeders win acceptance, as did the promoters of chocolate and yellow once upon a time, there will be four. 

You can count up a greater or lesser number of partial color genotypes, depending on how many loci you choose to include (for example, Labradors have allowed variation at C, possible variation at G, variation at A and other loci that is masked by e, E, and K, and mismarks that occur with variation at K and elsewhere). Genotypes are not colors.

Amy Dahl


----------



## copterdoc

afdahl said:


> I did look at post #21. It is hard to say anything constructive about the post. GIGO.
> 
> There are currently three accepted Labrador colors. Ask any breeder or puppy buyer you know to show you a registration application, or read the breed standard. If silver breeders win acceptance, as did the promoters of chocolate and yellow once upon a time, there will be four.
> 
> You can count up a greater or lesser number of partial color genotypes, depending on how many loci you choose to include (for example, Labradors have allowed variation at C, possible variation at G, variation at A and other loci that is masked by e, E, and K, and mismarks that occur with variation at K and elsewhere). Genotypes are not colors.
> 
> Amy Dahl


 It doesn't matter how many EXPRESSED colors are accepted.

In order to achieve those colors, the registry is FORCED to accept the carriers of those recessive colors within the registry.

And BTW, the Labrador Retriever Breed would be just freaking fine today, if there weren't any little b's living within it's registry.


----------



## Bridget Bodine

the next necessary clearance for Labs is a coat color DNA on each dog..... :-(


----------



## Jerry Beil

The problem with the Silver breeders is that they are taking a fairly rare (it would seem) recessive and breeding for it and keeping those dogs in the registry. So, over time there will be more and more of them, and ain't nobody got time for dat. Once that happens, as Bridget posted, there will need to be a genetic test to check for the dilute carrier, in order not to have litters with the undesirable non-conforming color.

I have no problem with folks breeding to have whatever kind, type, color, etc they want, but make it your own breed or cross - Labradoodle for example, and don't dishonestly register these dogs as Chocolate Labradors because they're not. For breeders to breed for them and then market them to the ignorant masses as somehow being a rare and desirable color is just flat out lying.

As Copterdoc said, the breed would be theoretically complete/finished when all of the non-conforming recessives are bred out of the gene pool. Not something that seems really possible, but that should really be the goal of breeding, to further the breed by eliminating the non-conforming genes where possible, and the silver breeders are doing exactly the opposite of that which is detrimental to the breed.


----------



## Renee P.

Jerry Beil said:


> The problem with the Silver breeders is that they are taking a fairly rare (it would seem) recessive and breeding for it and keeping those dogs in the registry. So, over time there will be more and more of them, and ain't nobody got time for dat. Once that happens, as Bridget posted, there will need to be a genetic test to check for the dilute carrier, in order not to have litters with the undesirable non-conforming color.
> 
> I have no problem with folks breeding to have whatever kind, type, color, etc they want, but make it your own breed or cross - Labradoodle for example, and don't dishonestly register these dogs as Chocolate Labradors because they're not. For breeders to breed for them and then market them to the ignorant masses as somehow being a rare and desirable color is just flat out lying.
> 
> *As Copterdoc said, the breed would be theoretically complete/finished when all of the non-conforming recessives are bred out of the gene pool. Not something that seems really possible, but that should really be the goal of breeding, to further the breed by eliminating the non-conforming genes where possible, and the silver breeders are doing exactly the opposite of that which is detrimental to the breed.*


*
*

Since when is this the definition of a breed? Scientists do not even agree on the definition of a species. 

So do you think we should breed out the recessives that lead to Dudleys? :wink: 

Or how about we breed out the recessive genes that lead to the dogs being too tall, or too short? How about those recessives that occasionally show up and produce white patches or brindles? 

If you are going to throw out silvers, then you need to cull all the labs out there that don't meet the standard in other ways. 

Mine has got a white on her foot. Uh oh.


----------



## Jere

copterdoc said:


> I can't reply directly to Jere's last post, due to the way that it was quoted.
> *1. In answer to the question. All of them.*
> 
> *2. If you are looking at spontaneous mutation as the basis for the "silver" Lab, I say that you are hearing hoofbeats, and looking for Zebras.*
> 
> 3. And it doesn't matter how the Recessive d came to be in these lines anyway.
> These Breeders are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it.
> 
> If they honestly came across it by accident, they would have neutered the Sire, spayed the Dam, and not registered the litter.
> 
> That's not what they did.
> 
> They bred Daughters to Sires, Dams to Sons, and Brothers to Sisters. And they continued to register the offspring that was produced.
> 
> They INTENTIONALLY reproduced it.
> For the almighty dollar.


Emphasis is mine - to help you follow the reply and reply back should you want.

1. Surely you're joking!
a. No registry defines the standard in terms of genotype. You must know that.
b. By your reasoning, if the product of any breeding of two registered dogs results in a non-conforming pup, then the pups, the parents, grandparents, ... back to all living ancestors and their progeny, their progeny's progeny etc. must be removed from the records of the registry and DQ'd from all venues sponsored by the registry or its affiliates! 
c. b. isn't gonna happen and isn't reasonable or rational because breed standards are defined by phenotype not genotype and the two are very different wrt many characteristics.

2. No, I'm not making this claim. Simply pointing out it is a possibility. In reality, probably some of the d's presently to be found in the general population of LRs did arise via this route.

3. True, but unfortunately that's the American way. 

This dilution allele thing is only a cosmetic issue any way. ;-) Could there be "natural ability" traits in danger too? Maybe I'll start a new thread.

Jere


----------



## SloppyMouth

Let's take the argument that the silver is caused by a weim cross. So what? 

If we look at the Dalmatian/pointer backcross project that sought to correct uric acid production in Dalmatians, it was generally accepted that by the seventh generation after outcrossing, the dogs were in effect purebred Dalmatians again -- and healthier than before.

http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/nash_research.htm

So, if weims were crossed in at some point (not saying they were), big deal...at what point would they be considered purebred Labs again?

If you say 'never,' regardless of number of generations, phenotype, temperament, et al., you're ignoring the evolution of purebred dogs wholesale.


----------



## SloppyMouth

afdahl said:


> I think the main thing was that it is a misconception to assume that color is independent of all other traits.
> 
> Amy Dahl


I think that was pretty well illustrated in the Russian fox domestication project, which solved the riddle of how dogs came to have so many different coat types despite being descended from gray wolves. I.e., the same gene that controls tameness affects coat color, pattern, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox


----------



## Jerry Beil

mitty said:


> [/B]
> 
> Since when is this the definition of a breed? Scientists do not even agree on the definition of a species.
> 
> So do you think we should breed out the recessives that lead to Dudleys? :wink:
> 
> Or how about we breed out the recessive genes that lead to the dogs being too tall, or too short? How about those recessives that occasionally show up and produce white patches or brindles?
> 
> If you are going to throw out silvers, then you need to cull all the labs out there that don't meet the standard in other ways.
> 
> Mine has got a white on her foot. Uh oh.


Mine has a little white spot on her chin. The other one is god forbid yellow!

Not suggesting that we can eliminate all of the undesirable/non conforming traits, or that this should even be the primary consideration when breeding, but it should be a consideration. If you were crossing your white footed dog with my white chinned dog and trying to get a line of polka-dotted labs then you would be damaging the breed because you're not breeding a dog for the positive traits that make the breed better, but rather you're intentionally trying to breed dogs that are contrary to the standard. Would you breed a brindle? Perhaps if the dog was so strong otherwise that the positive characteristics that dog could contribute to the gene pool were a net plus, but otherwise I'd think no, not ever. And it would be wrong and damaging to the breed to intentionally breed brindle to brindle etc to get a line of "special rare brindle labs".

The idea of a finished or completed breed isn't something that's possible for a number of reasons, but it's a valid concept for this discussion, and as a target when breeding. As a rule it's not a good idea to breed dogs that have disqualifying traits, and it's absolutely not a good idea to breed dogs to intentionally perpetuate non conforming traits as the primary goal.


----------



## Sharon Potter

It's not about breeding recessives out as much as it's about not breeding them in.


----------



## SloppyMouth

Sharon Potter said:


> It's not about breeding recessives out as much as it's about not breeding them in.


What if they were, in fact, there from the beginning -- from the St. John's water dog and/or Newfoundland? Almost all retrievers descend from these two dogs.


----------



## Sharon Potter

SloppyMouth said:


> What if they were, in fact, there from the beginning -- from the St. John's water dog and/or Newfoundland? Almost all retrievers descend from these two dogs.


Almost is the operative word.


----------



## SloppyMouth

Sharon Potter said:


> Almost is the operative word.


Okay, the Chessie and the Lab...do Chessies possess the dilute gene?


----------



## Sharon Potter

SloppyMouth said:


> Okay, the Chessie and the Lab...do Chessies possess the dilute gene?


I'd guess yes, since the "ash" color pops up on rare ocassion, but I don't know if the genetics have been tested for the dd.


----------



## DRAKEHAVEN

Water bucket................................................................................


----------



## leo455

Time for a color split like other breeds do. ACOTBYC Labs


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## txrancher

do silver labs and fools gold fit in the same category?


----------



## lucas

What I want to know is, has one of these dilute dogs ever titled in AKC or HRC hunt tests?


----------



## Good Dogs

Rainy day, nothing to do but get caught up in a seemingly endless thread on RTF. 
But this quote, or a variation, kept popping up: "Currently, AKC considers silver a shade of chocolate, which it is not, and allows silvers to be registered as chocolate."
My understanding - pls correct me if I'm wrong - was that AKC does not recognize or consider silver as an acceptable color for labs but folks breeding these dogs are checking the chocolate box. And, since no photos or DNA tests are required, bingo, the pups are registered in the AKC book - as chocolate. That's deception and should be grounds for being bounced from the AKC is it not? 
Secondly, what bozo pays a premium for a "silver" lab that says "chocolate" on the papers? 

I've judged a few of these dogs, only in JH. They did not look like labs but had the narrow muzzle, ears ,eyes and the gait of Weimaraners. Never saw one that could pass a junior HT. 
As H. L. Mencken said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."


----------



## lucas

lucas said:


> What I want to know is, has one of these dilute dogs ever titled in AKC or HRC hunt tests?


And the answer is yes (thanks to my friend CT for finding it), Carolina's Silver Smoke MH

and for the person who asked about health clearnaces, here's a whole page from one kennel. They even proudly display the coat color genetics (DD, Dd, and dd)
http://www.lavishlabs.com/lavishlabs our dogs page3.html


----------



## Glenda Brown

The OFA has agreed to maintain a data base of Labradors who have been permanently identified (microchip or tattoo ) and have been tested for the d gene. Dogs having the genotype dd will be listed as affected, Dd as carriers of the dilute gene and DD as clear of the dilute gene.

This test can be done through Vet Gen. This test is easily done with a cheek swab. If not already up, this data base will be going up soon with a list of Labradors that test either clear, carriers, or affected. If you test more than one Lab at a time, there is a price discount. This is another tool to use with regard to breeding decisions.

Glenda


----------



## windycanyon

lucas said:


> And the answer is yes (thanks to my friend CT for finding it), Carolina's Silver Smoke MH
> 
> and for the person who asked about health clearnaces, here's a whole page from one kennel. They even proudly display the coat color genetics (DD, Dd, and dd)
> http://www.lavishlabs.com/lavishlabs our dogs page3.html


If they are so proud of their lines, where are the pedigrees so people can verify the health testing data, and lineage? Anyone can state anything on the internet.


----------



## 2tall

windycanyon said:


> If they are so proud of their lines, where are the pedigrees so people can verify the health testing data, and lineage? Anyone can state anything on the internet.


Are these dogs even AKC registered? All I see are UKC titles, something called "International" champs. Are these real meaningful titles? Just curious.


----------



## mngundog

lucas said:


> What I want to know is, has one of these dilute dogs ever titled in AKC or HRC hunt tests?


I have seen photos of one that is titled as a Lab, it has it own Facebook page and it looks remarkably like a Weim/cross.


----------



## windycanyon

2tall said:


> Are these dogs even AKC registered? All I see are UKC titles, something called "International" champs. Are these real meaningful titles? Just curious.


The Intl CH group is IABCA and they will accept UKC paperwork if I remember correctly. Interesting thing about the ones that I noticed being Intl CH, they are not "affected" dilutes. Nor would they or should they pass judging critiques as the FCI (European) standard is used in their judging. IABCA is not "competitive" as a venue, rather some of us use them as a means to get written critiques on our dogs. As w/ all venues, some judges are better studied on the standard than others. I had one that told me my one girl's muzzle was too long, also her legs and tail. She obviously had not studied the proportions very well, rather was putting up what was in vogue in the AKC ring.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp

lucas said:


> and for the person who asked about health clearnaces, here's a whole page from one kennel. They even proudly display the coat color genetics (DD, Dd, and dd)
> http://www.lavishlabs.com/lavishlabs our dogs page3.html


I'll admit it's a better site than most I've seen cratering to any different type of Labrador, I applaud any breeder for health testing and listing clearance in their dogs, but as the dogs are not listed with registered names, it's impossible to look up-check health clearances, performance records, or pedigrees to ensure what is stated on a website is on the up and up. Pedigrees not being listed is interesting in itself. Now the UKC show Championship stuff (if true) should be easy to look up, one would only have to go through show results, then you could find a dogs name, and gain access to most anything; but if one is trying to appear respectable (novelty breeder or not), it is much better to have all these things easy to find with links, numbers etc. on your web-page. 

I find the new OFA database interesting, I wonder how many will actually test their dogs, I also wonder if in a few years if we will start to see if the dd are indeed hidden in distinctly different lines of Labs. I assume it'll be treated like the black and tan/ brindle color tests, most Labrador breeders won't test for those unless they've produced an odd ball pup, then they test to ensure they don't produce it again; and to weed it out of their lines.


----------



## keepitsimple

Glenda Brown said:


> The OFA has agreed to maintain a data base of Labradors who have been permanently identified (microchip or tattoo ) and have been tested for the d gene. Dogs having the genotype dd will be listed as affected, Dd as carriers of the dilute gene and DD as clear of the dilute gene.
> 
> This test can be done through Vet Gen. This test is easily done with a cheek swab. If not already up, this data base will be going up soon with a list of Labradors that test either clear, carriers, or affected. If you test more than one Lab at a time, there is a price discount. This is another tool to use with regard to breeding decisions.
> 
> Glenda


this is the first positive step I've seen in this controversy - make no mistake, the dilute [silver (diluted chocolate) charcoal (diluted black) champagne (diluted yellow)] lab is here to stay with or without registrations. At least the breeders not wanting a mating from a dog carrying the dilute gene can have some proof. 

Of course, It would be MUCH easier, if the three "new" colors showed up on the pedigree, but that would mean the LRC would need to roll over and admit that the currently DQ'd colors are acceptable - figure the odds of that....

there will always be extremists - from those that believe than anything other than a EEBBDD (Black) dog has a defect to those who breed without any regard to health, conformation, or working traits - but at least there would be a record of the dog's true linage in regard to color rather than making it guesswork.

I happen to believe that those who only breed for silver color with no regard to a dog's health are no good, down right scoundrels. But make no mistake - the problem is not going away - sorry 

i do have one question - do pointing labs fall into this same controversy - many "experts" have also stated that they have lines back to Kellogg?


----------



## Swack

keepitsimple said:


> this is the first positive step I've seen in this controversy - make no mistake, the dilute [silver (diluted chocolate) charcoal (diluted black) champagne (diluted yellow)] lab is here to stay with or without registrations. At least the breeders not wanting a mating from a dog carrying the dilute gene can have some proof.
> 
> Of course, It would be MUCH easier, if the three "new" colors showed up on the pedigree, but that would mean the LRC would need to roll over and admit that the currently DQ'd colors are acceptable - figure the odds of that....
> 
> there will always be extremists - from those that believe than anything other than a EEBBDD (Black) dog has a defect to those who breed without any regard to health, conformation, or working traits - but at least there would be a record of the dog's true linage in regard to color rather than making it guesswork.
> 
> I happen to believe that those who only breed for silver color with no regard to a dog's health are no good, down right scoundrels. But make no mistake - the problem is not going away - sorry
> 
> i do have one question - *do pointing labs fall into this same controversy *- many "experts" have also stated that they have lines back to Kellogg?


keepitsimple,

I had a bitch out of Wilderness Harley to Go that pointed as hard as any I've had. A male out of Candlewoods Meet Joe Black had as hard a point. He's now a GMPR. These were natural points, not trained. If you want to label Labs that point as "defective", you'd better be prepared to condemn a slew of mainstream AKC FT Lab bloodlines.

Swack


----------



## Socks

Swack said:


> keepitsimple,
> 
> I had a bitch out of Wilderness Harley to Go that pointed as hard as any I've had. A male out of Candlewoods Meet Joe Black had as hard a point. He's now a GMPR. These were natural points, not trained. If you want to label Labs that point as "defective", you'd better be prepared to condemn a slew of mainstream AKC FT Lab bloodlines.
> 
> Swack


Ah yep, you'd be surprised at some of the PL pedigrees


----------



## crawfordw2

lucas said:


> What I want to know is, has one of these dilute dogs ever titled in AKC or HRC hunt tests?


I have titled (SH) 2 diluted dogs (1 male and 1 female) and am one pass shy of having a JH.


----------



## keepitsimple

Hey! I’m not saying anything negative about the dilute lab or the pointing lab! what I’m saying is that one the people leading the charge against the dilute lab, Jack Vanderwyk, associates the pointing lab with Kellogg just as he does the dilute lab and that Kellogg was a business man and would do anything to make a buck and that the lab had neither of these traits in English stock and had to have been introduced in America. To me it's nonsense, but who am i to judge - i am an American and a Dilute (silver) Pointing Lab owner as well as a hobby breeder. I have plenty of wealth and i'm sure as hell not in it for the money - so the naysayers can toss that one out the window too.


----------



## SPEED

A lot of field trial labs point - I have had a few of them and have found the point is fairly dominant as far as being passed on. I do not believe in breeding labs just for point because eventually you will breed the instinct into them to such an extent it will just be another pointer. The fun about having a pointing lab currently is that unlike a pointer - if the bird runs the lab will jump in and flush it before it gets away. If we breed just for point we will lose the flush instinct. Fox red is just a shade of yellow however I have seen a few pointing fox red labs that look suspiciously like a visla. I heard rumors about people down south breeding chocolate Shorthairs to Labradors to get point. I heard rumors that years ago show lab people crossed with goldens to produce a heavier coat (there is a test for the long coat gene also). As far as dogs producing silver from lines that should not... I saw a chocolate pup running out of two dogs who no way would produce chocolate - those chocolate dogs were registered as being out a sire who did NOT produce them. A few more generations and nobody will be able to prove otherwise. After a number of generations you cannot prove that the pedigree is not correct - you can only prove that the parents are correct. One of my biggest things about the dilute gene is that a study was done and 25% of dogs with the double dilute gene end up with hair loss, skin issues including lesions. Why would you want a dog or want to produce a dog with that high of a probability of unattractive health issues. OFFA now has the test for the dd gene and stud owners can require that bitches be tested for it before a breeding can take place. Honestly, I will be testing my dogs to be sure there is not a dilute gene - if there is - the dog will be spay and placed in a nice companion hunting home. I love the lab just as it is intended to be and don't I need anything else.


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## keepitsimple

SPEED said:


> A lot of field trial labs point - I have had a few of them and have found the point is fairly dominant as far as being passed on. I do not believe in breeding labs just for point because eventually you will breed the instinct into them to such an extent it will just be another pointer. The fun about having a pointing lab currently is that unlike a pointer - if the bird runs the lab will jump in and flush it before it gets away. If we breed just for point we will lose the flush instinct. Fox red is just a shade of yellow however I have seen a few pointing fox red labs that look suspiciously like a visla. I heard rumors about people down south breeding chocolate Shorthairs to Labradors to get point. I heard rumors that years ago show lab people crossed with goldens to produce a heavier coat (there is a test for the long coat gene also). As far as dogs producing silver from lines that should not... I saw a chocolate pup running out of two dogs who no way would produce chocolate - those chocolate dogs were registered as being out a sire who did NOT produce them. A few more generations and nobody will be able to prove otherwise. After a number of generations you cannot prove that the pedigree is not correct - you can only prove that the parents are correct. One of my biggest things about the dilute gene is that a study was done and 25% of dogs with the double dilute gene end up with hair loss, skin issues including lesions. Why would you want a dog or want to produce a dog with that high of a probability of unattractive health issues. OFFA now has the test for the dd gene and stud owners can require that bitches be tested for it before a breeding can take place. Honestly, I will be testing my dogs to be sure there is not a dilute gene - if there is - the dog will be spay and placed in a nice companion hunting home. I love the lab just as it is intended to be and don't I need anything else.


i hear ya on the hair and skin issues - i haven't seen the study - it is a concern -but it's not just the dilute - products like "Itchy Dog", etc were not developed and could not be sustained on the dilute lab population alone - there are 1000's of BYC labs and other breeds with no dilute gene that have the same issues - maybe not 1:4 like the study you talk about, but it is still an issue with poorly bred dogs that are fed a low quality food - my guess, the 1:4 (if it's accurate) is because the dogs were bred only for color and their owners fed them sub-premium dog food - that's very unfortunate because there are actually owners of dilute labs who breed them for traits other than color - i happen to be one of them - regardless I respect your position - but look at the first post on this thread by the left wing jerk off requesting to taking away dilute registrations - i wonder how many field trial or hunt test titles he has under his belt? hell i even wonder if he owns a lab or just likes to get things stirred up because "it's the right thing to do"


----------



## Breck

The majority of us want labradors who are smarter than pointers.


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## Sharon Potter

I like that OFA is going to maintain a database of dogs carrying the d gene. Unfortunately, I strongly doubt that many ofthe dilute folks will be submitting the results to OFA....because the pedigrees would pop up. It's more likely that Lab breeders of the acceptable colors will utilize this to prove their stock is clear, just like with the other genetic tests. To me, the formation of the dilute database is just like any other genetic test....used to make sure the unacceptable gene isn't expressed.


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## FOM

keepitsimple said:


> i hear ya on the hair and skin issues - i haven't seen the study - it is a concern -but it's not just the dilute - products like "Itchy Dog", etc were not developed and could not be sustained on the dilute lab population alone - there are 1000's of BYC labs and other breeds with no dilute gene that have the same issues - maybe not 1:4 like the study you talk about, but it is still an issue with poorly bred dogs that are fed a low quality food - my guess, the 1:4 (if it's accurate) is because the dogs were bred only for color and their owners fed them sub-premium dog food - that's very unfortunate because there are actually owners of dilute labs who breed them for traits other than color - i happen to be one of them - regardless I respect your position - but look at the first post on this thread by the left wing jerk off requesting to taking away dilute registrations - i wonder how many field trial or hunt test titles he has under his belt? hell i even wonder if he owns a lab or just likes to get things stirred up because "it's the right thing to do"


keepitsimple,

please refrain from name calling, it is not acceptable on RTF.

FOM
RTF Moderator


----------



## keepitsimple

FOM said:


> keepitsimple,
> 
> please refrain from name calling, it is not acceptable on RTF.
> 
> FOM
> RTF Moderator


sorry - i guess since copterdoc called me and all silver breeders greedy, unscrupulous, assholes i thought maybe name calling was acceptable on this thread. 

I'm serious - check this guy Jack Vanderwyk out. He is from the Netherlands, lives in France and has english as a second language. He is a writer, musician and an activist, not a Lab owner or trainer. He is only engaged in this controversy to help help make him notorious - He is no more of an expert on this topic than Barack Obama is on Health Care Reform, Climate Change, or Gun Control.


----------



## jhnnythndr

My God. From Netherlands lives in France and speaks English??? Alert the AKC!!

For my purposes he is too far removed from my daily reality to even matter. I've only in the last couple days heard of him. But I've definitely met people with "silver labs" i guess they call them who want me to breed a litter with there dog so we can get "charcoal" labs. A girl at Starbucks told me the ones with blue eyes are the most valuable- though she didn elaborate on what that value was. I was with a buddy doing some land an water marks with my then 6 month old puppy at jewel lake in anchorage when a guy walked up to me with a silver lab on a leash- sleek as adoberman- and asked if I wanted to breed her to his dog. 6 month old puppy. I asked how his dog was as a retriever and the guy was like "check this out" and threw a decent size stick about 40 feet out nice big splash. His dog just looked at him. 

Well- no she's 6 months old so I wasn't planning on breeding her just yet.


----------



## RockyDog

keepitsimple said:


> I'm serious - check this guy Jack Vanderwyk out. He is from the Netherlands, lives in France and has english as a second language. He is a writer, musician and an activist, not a Lab owner or trainer. He is only engaged in this controversy to help help make him notorious - He is no more of an expert on this topic than Barack Obama is on Health Care Reform, Climate Change, or Gun Control.


You forgot to mention the part about him running a bar in Amsterdam's Red Light District. Mr Vanderwyk appears to have lead a rather "colorful" life. His bio does state that he was a breeder of Labrador Retrievers for more than 10 years, with his kennel Joe Batt’s Arm, and was the founder of LabradorNet, which he still owns.


----------



## windycanyon

Sharon Potter said:


> I like that OFA is going to maintain a database of dogs carrying the d gene. Unfortunately, I strongly doubt that many ofthe dilute folks will be submitting the results to OFA....because the pedigrees would pop up. It's more likely that Lab breeders of the acceptable colors will utilize this to prove their stock is clear, just like with the other genetic tests. To me, the formation of the dilute database is just like any other genetic test....used to make sure the unacceptable gene isn't expressed.


I personally doubt many peds will show up on OFA anyhow since most silver breeders seem not to have the basic clearances behind their dogs in the first place.


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## Sharon Potter

Just an interesting side note...and one that makes me giggle a little, mainly because it sort of thumbs its nose at the gullible who bought into it all: The translation of Crist Culo Kennels (with Crist being the last name of the owner) is Crist A$$hole Kennel. Sort of makes a statement.  Especially when you think of all the dogs named somethingorother Culo.


----------



## keepitsimple

windycanyon said:


> I personally doubt many peds will show up on OFA anyhow since most silver breeders seem not to have the basic clearances behind their dogs in the first place.


personally I like to base my statement based on facts rather than what others say or think - go to next day pets sometime and look at the $400-$500 labs (or any other breed) for sale that have no clearances regardless of color - it's NOT a silver lab issue as much as it as a public education issue - don't buy ANY dog unless it at minimum has the health clearances recommended by the AKC


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## keepitsimple

RockyDog said:


> You forgot to mention the part about him running a bar in Amsterdam's Red Light District. Mr Vanderwyk appears to have lead a rather "colorful" life. His bio does state that he was a breeder of Labrador Retrievers for more than 10 years, with his kennel Joe Batt’s Arm, and was the founder of LabradorNet, which he still owns.


sure - it was in canada, now it's in the Netherlands but still has the maple leaf flag on his web site and he is in France? the the kennel hasn't had a litter since 2009? Come on - something is not adding up with this guy....


----------



## Sharon Potter

I don't think anyone here is disputing the idea of educating buyers. It doesn't matter what breed...health clearances should be standard practice. The point is that the vast majority...note I didn't say all...of the dilute Lab breeders aren't doing them, and that is relevant to the topic at hand.


----------



## keepitsimple

copterdoc said:


> EEBBDD = Lab
> EEBbDD = Lab
> EEbbDD = Lab
> EeBBDD = Lab
> EeBbDD = Lab
> EebbDD = Lab
> eeBBDD = Lab
> eeBbDD = Lab
> eebbDD = Lab
> 
> If any of the D's is recessive, it's not a Lab.
> 
> EEBBDd = not a Lab
> EEBBdd = not a Lab
> EEBbDd = not a Lab
> EEBbdd = not a Lab
> EEbbDd = not a Lab
> EEbbdd = not a Lab
> EeBBDd = not a Lab
> EeBBdd = not a Lab
> EeBbDd = not a Lab
> EeBbdd = not a Lab
> EebbDd = not a Lab
> Eebbdd = not a Lab
> eeBBDd = not a Lab
> eeBBdd = not a Lab
> eeBbDd = not a Lab
> eeBbdd = not a Lab
> eebbDd = not a Lab
> eebbdd = not a Lab
> 
> Fox reds are either eeBBDD, eeBbDD or eebbDD


so when a Dd crosses with a DD - 1/2 will be DD and 1/2 will be Dd - so half of the litter will be labs and the other half won't? I fail to see the logic?


----------



## keepitsimple

copterdoc said:


> Ah, the famous AKC statement by Robert Young of the AKC.
> 
> Copy and paste this lie into a google search, and see who keeps repeating it.
> 
> 
> And then tell me who "Robert Young of the AKC" is, and what position he holds, or once held, with the AKC.


I see no one answered your question - but Jack Vanderwyk uses this exact statement in his anti-silver writings - so it must be true......


----------



## keepitsimple

BJGatley said:


> Per AKC...they are part of the yellow color and are permissible to the breed.
> 
> Edit to post: Tony beat me to it.


what about yellow labs lacking pigment in nose and eyelids? Also a DQ (aka Dudleys) when is the witch hunt coming for them? I'm sure Jack Vanderwyk will raise hell over there never being any history of Dudleys in the UK next...


----------



## Marissa E.

I still think the idea that silvers start their own "breed" is the best idea... 

By allowing breeders to outcross with genetically sound Labs and Weims (or whatever they chose I guess) you would probably have a genetically sounder healthy animal over all than just crossing dilute lab with dilute lab... That gene pool is too narrow to be healthy in the long run. By out crossing with other labs and Weims you could keep the color going while you increase your desire to retieve. 

Not sure if you would ever get any lab OR wiem breeder to go along with you though...

For the record: I do not like the color of Dudley's or Silvers. Just not my cup of tea.

With the genetic color tests available at reasonable rates now avoiding producing Dudley's is simple. Labrador color genetics compared to most breeds is kindergarten learnin. Dudley's are a fault that should be avoided IMO. But that's just my 2 cents.


----------



## Sharon Potter

keepitsimple said:


> what about yellow labs lacking pigment in nose and eyelids? Also a DQ (aka Dudleys) when is the witch hunt coming for them? I'm sure Jack Vanderwyk will raise hell over there never being any history of Dudleys in the UK next...


Simple. Nobody is purposely breeding for that particular disqualification and then trying to sell it to the uninformed as special and more valuable.


----------



## Renee P.

Sharon Potter said:


> Simple. Nobody is purposely breeding for that particular disqualification and then trying to sell it to the uninformed as special and more valuable.


I hate to break it to you, but yes they are. Some call them "Champagne Labradors."


----------



## auburntigergal

I'm new to this forum and apparently I have to get 10 posts before I can do much of anything on here...
I like black labs myself 
But I have a friend who tried to give me a lesson on how long it takes to "develop" the silver lab.... so many breedings here and then so many breedings there, until wah-lah, you have the silver lab....


----------



## Sharon Potter

mitty said:


> I hate to break it to you, but yes they are. Some call them "Champagne Labradors."


It's my understanding that what they call champagne is a dilute. Not sure of all the genetics, but could a yellow x chocolate have the dilute gene?


----------



## Renee P.

Sharon Potter said:


> It's my understanding that what they call champagne is a dilute. Not sure of all the genetics, but could a yellow x chocolate have the dilute gene?


I remember seeing Dudleys for sale here and there, apparently produced on purpose, for that rare look :shock:.

When I saw the champagnes, I assumed they were classic Dudleys but now that you mention it I notice that the breeders say that champagne Labradors are dilute yellow. Not sure what they mean by that, though. Does dilute yellow give you a different shade of yellow? Anyhow, the dogs have no eye or nose pigment and they have green eyes, just like your traditional Dudley.


----------



## keepitsimple

Sharon Potter said:


> It's my understanding that what they call champagne is a dilute. Not sure of all the genetics, but could a yellow x chocolate have the dilute gene?


Champagne is a dilute yellow that may carry chocolate (eeBbdd) or may not carry chocolate (eeBBdd) - it can result from breeding any color (BYC) where both parents carry both yellow and dilute

a dilute yellow (champagne) is the equivalent of a dilute chocolate (silver) or a dilute black (charcoal)


----------



## Peter G Lippert

Everyone knows the only real lab color is black.


----------



## Sharon Potter

keepitsimple said:


> Champagne is a dilute yellow that may carry chocolate (eeBbdd) or may not carry chocolate (eeBBdd) - it can result from breeding any color (BYC) where both parents carry both yellow and dilute
> 
> a dilute yellow (champagne) is the equivalent of a dilute chocolate (silver) or a dilute black (charcoal)


Thanks for clarifying....that's what I thought. That translates into a "dudley" not being in the same category as the dilutes when it comes to genetic acceptability.


----------



## copterdoc

keepitsimple said:


> so when a Dd crosses with a DD - 1/2 will be DD and 1/2 will be Dd - so half of the litter will be labs and the other half won't? I fail to see the logic?


 The correct answer would be that none of them would be Labs.

The recessive d has no place in the breed. If a dog carries it, that dog is not a Labrador Retriever. 
And so, neither are any of it's offspring.


----------



## Swack

keepitsimple said:


> what about yellow labs lacking pigment in nose and eyelids? Also a DQ (aka Dudleys) when is the witch hunt coming for them? I'm sure Jack Vanderwyk will raise hell over there never being any history of Dudleys in the UK next...


keepitsimple,

I can tell you have an axe to grind with Jack Vanderwyk. But this isn't about one guy's website that is anti-silver Lab. And it isn't about comparing known faults (dudleys) which are specifically mentioned in the breed standard. It's a discussion about Silver Labradors and those who promote them. Silvers aren't specifically mentioned in the standard as a fault because those who wrote the standard couldn't have imagined that people would get to the point where they couldn't read and comprehend plain English. Below is a quote from the standard:

_*Color
* The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. *Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification*.

_Seems pretty straight forward to me, but let me spell it out for you in case you can't figure it out. 

*IF* *A SILVER LAB IS INDEED A LAB, IT **IS NOT* *A DESIRABLE LAB AND SHOULD NOT BE PURPOSFULLY BRED FOR ANY REASON.

*This is my personal opinion, the opinion of the LRC, the opinion of the writers of the original British Standard (the likes of Lord Knutsford and Lorna Countess Howe), and I'll wager over 95% of the Labrador retriever breeders on the planet. 

Let me turn the tables for a minute. Instead of me telling you why the Silver Lab isn't a proper Labrador, would you give me *one good reason why we should accept the silver Lab as a proper representative of and asset to our breed?

*Swack


----------



## Renee P.

Sharon Potter said:


> Thanks for clarifying....that's what I thought. That translates into a "dudley" not being in the same category as the dilutes when it comes to genetic acceptability.


I found some websites that have genotypes of their champagne Labradors as eebbdd, so these are genetically Dudleys. Bred on purpose. 

You could also do a dilute like eeBBdd, no? And not get a Dudley champagne Labrador? Some of the champagnes have pigmented noses (not black but not flesh color either) etc., presumably not Dudleys, but I'm not finding genotypes.

Weird.


----------



## copterdoc

A yellow Lab can either be black and yellow, or chocolate and yellow.

Two recessives in the E locus make it yellow. 
Two recessives in the B locus make it chocolate.

The E locus is epistatic to the B locus. It turns the pigment in the keratin producing cells (the ones that make hair and nails) from either chocolate or black, to yellow.

The pigment in the skin is still going to be black in a dog with at least one dominant allele in the B locus, and brown if there are two recessive alleles in the B locus.


----------



## keepitsimple

Sharon Potter said:


> Thanks for clarifying....that's what I thought. That translates into a "dudley" not being in the same category as the dilutes when it comes to genetic acceptability.


there is nothing in the AKC standard regarding genetic acceptability - but in regards to color a Dudley is a DQ the same as a dilute


----------



## keepitsimple

mitty said:


> I found some websites that have genotypes of their champagne Labradors as eebbdd, so these are genetically Dudleys. Bred on purpose.
> 
> You could also do a dilute like eeBBdd, no? And not get a Dudley champagne Labrador? Some of the champagnes have pigmented noses (not black but not flesh color either) etc., presumably not Dudleys, but I'm not finding genotypes.
> 
> Weird.


with all due respect - the dog's nose on your profile pic looks like Dudley - it's color would would be a DQ in the show ring - sorry - not that I care - but it seems to be a primary basis for argument from haters -


----------



## copterdoc

keepitsimple said:


> there is nothing in the AKC standard regarding genetic acceptability - but in regards to color a Dudley is a DQ the same as a dilute


 Two Labs producing a dudley can easily be explained. And even then, nobody is intentionally producing dudleys.

However, there is no legitimate explanation for how two Labs could possibly produce a dilute puppy.
The recessive allele necessary for it to be produced (X2) does *NOT EXIST* in the breed. Period.

These dogs are ALL the result of an outcross to another breed, after the registry was closed, and the breeder(s) that did it succeeded in fraudulently registering the "foundation stock" within the existing registry. 

It doesn't matter how long ago that it happened. It happened AFTER the stud books had been closed, and the breed was already established.

It doesn't matter what breed it was. There is absolutely no denying that it happened, and NONE of the dogs being produced from these pedigrees are in fact Labrador Retrievers.


----------



## Renee P.

keepitsimple said:


> with all due respect - the dog's nose on your profile pic looks like Dudley - it's color would would be a DQ in the show ring - sorry - not that I care - but it seems to be a primary basis for argument from haters -


Actually, no, it is not a DQ as my dog has dark pigment. In fact much of her skin is black under the yellow fur. She has black lips and black eye rims. It is pretty normal for black noses in yellow Labradors to lighten with age and in the winter.

So with all due respect you are assuming a lot from a poor quality avatar pic.


----------



## SPEED

Sharon Potter said:


> It's my understanding that what they call champagne is a dilute. Not sure of all the genetics, but could a yellow x chocolate have the dilute gene?


Interesting thought. I would guess that if the yellow did not carry chocolate and the chocolate did not carry yellow and if both dogs carry one dilute gene then you would get blacks and charcoals that carry both yellow and chocolate.

For Champagne to show up the Chocolate would also have to carry yellow, then you could get charcoal, champagne, blacks, and yellow.

Now if the yellow also carried chocolate and the chocolate carried yellow and both carried one dilute gene you could get black, yellow, chocolate, champagne, silver, charcoal... did I miss anything?


----------



## SPEED

mitty said:


> I remember seeing Dudleys for sale here and there, apparently produced on purpose, for that rare look :shock:.
> 
> When I saw the champagnes, I assumed they were classic Dudleys but now that you mention it I notice that the breeders say that champagne Labradors are dilute yellow. Not sure what they mean by that, though. Does dilute yellow give you a different shade of yellow? Anyhow, the dogs have no eye or nose pigment and they have green eyes, just like your traditional Dudley.


Many years back I had a guy come up to me while we were out training and asked if I knew where he could get a yellow lab with a pink nose, pink around the eye, and light eye. I told him no reputable breeder would breed them that way because they are not in standard but that if he looks hard enough he would find somebody doing it.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp

Technically a champagne, would be a yellow dilute eeBBdd, eeBbdd (you wouldn't be able to tell they were dilute, they'd be in breed standard, just a light yellow); black nose and eye rims. I'm not sure what the dudley dilute eebbdd, would look like but I bet it would be just a lightly color dudley (yellow dog, brown-pink nose-eye rims), and you couldn't tell it carried the dilute gene either. The silver shows up best on the brown coat type; many black dilutes "charcoal's" if that's a word are black in breed standard and you can't really tell they're dilute, unless someone told you they were; you'd just consider them a dull-dirty black dog. Heck I often have charcoal dogs, when they've been rolling in the dirt. Many the eyes show up blue; but they change to amber (which is in breed standard) They are hiding in plain sight.


----------



## Bridget Bodine

mitty said:


> Actually, no, it is not a DQ as my dog has dark pigment. In fact much of her skin is black under the yellow fur. She has black lips and black eye rims. It is pretty normal for black noses in yellow Labradors to lighten with age and in the winter.
> 
> So with all due respect you are assuming a lot from a poor quality avatar pic.


 Mitty's dog has a typical yellow winter nose with black pigment around the edges and has black eye rims , absolutely NOT a dudley


----------



## keepitsimple

Bridget Bodine said:


> Mitty's dog has a typical yellow winter nose with black pigment around the edges and has black eye rims , absolutely NOT a dudley


sorry still a DQ


----------



## Marissa E.

keepitsimple said:


> sorry still a DQ


No it's not...

Nose-- The nose should be wide and the nostrils well-developed. The nose should be black on black or yellow dogs, and brown on chocolates. Nose color fading to a lighter shade is not a fault.

Read for yourself....
https://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm


----------



## keepitsimple

Swack said:


> keepitsimple,
> 
> I can tell you have an axe to grind with Jack Vanderwyk. But this isn't about one guy's website that is anti-silver Lab. And it isn't about comparing known faults (dudleys) which are specifically mentioned in the breed standard. It's a discussion about Silver Labradors and those who promote them. Silvers aren't specifically mentioned in the standard as a fault because those who wrote the standard couldn't have imagined that people would get to the point where they couldn't read and comprehend plain English. Below is a quote from the standard:
> 
> _*Color
> *The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. *Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification*.
> 
> _Seems pretty straight forward to me, but let me spell it out for you in case you can't figure it out.
> 
> *IF* *A SILVER LAB IS INDEED A LAB, IT **IS NOT* *A DESIRABLE LAB AND SHOULD NOT BE PURPOSFULLY BRED FOR ANY REASON.
> 
> *This is my personal opinion, the opinion of the LRC, the opinion of the writers of the original British Standard (the likes of Lord Knutsford and Lorna Countess Howe), and I'll wager over 95% of the Labrador retriever breeders on the planet.
> 
> Let me turn the tables for a minute. Instead of me telling you why the Silver Lab isn't a proper Labrador, would you give me *one good reason why we should accept the silver Lab as a proper representative of and asset to our breed?
> 
> *Swack


thanks for spelling it out for me - appreciate it

i'm not suggesting changing anything -i breed my dogs to be better hunters - that's it - the beef i have with this guy is that he as well as others are making a motion to make it impossible to even register dilute labs or standard color labs carrying the dilute gene - making them inelligible for competiton, which pisses me off! the notion that they should not be bred becaase it doesn't meet the breed standard is non-sense - it happens every day by breeding a >80 pound stud or anything else outside of the breed standard - too tall, too short, no pigment in eyes, nose - there seems to be a laser focus on the dilute because of the backyard breeders trying to make an easy buck - which also happens every day with the standard colors.

The writers of the original british standard - serious? you know that it was for Black only - why was chocolate ever accepted?

now let me spell this out for you: a dilute chocolate lab is in fact a chocolate lab - if you breed a EEbbdd with a EEbbDD - you will end up with a litter of EEbbDd -standard chocolate labs that only carry the dilute gene - now breed one of those dogs with another EEbbDD and you will end up with 1/2 the litter being EEbbDD - NOT A DILUTE CARRIER - 

i breed to hunt not for color and have all of the health checks (OFA, CERF, CNM, EIC) - done before breeding and only breed with a standard color - no skin issues - i am a licensed professional and don't need the peanuts i make from this - anything i make gets dumped back into research and training. 

So to sum it up - i'm good the way it is with the registration - call me what you want - but i will fight to the end if anyone tries to take what i have.

that's all i got to say 'bout that


----------



## keepitsimple

Marissa E. said:


> No it's not...
> 
> Nose-- The nose should be wide and the nostrils well-developed. The nose should be black on black or yellow dogs, and brown on chocolates. Nose color fading to a lighter shade is not a fault.
> 
> Read for yourself....
> https://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm


i suppose you consider the dog on the RTF icon/link nose to be standard also - "A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment" is a disqualification


----------



## Marissa E.

keepitsimple said:


> i suppose you consider the dog on the RTF icon/link nose to be standard also - "A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment" is a disqualification



Yes their noses are FADED they were not born pink.


----------



## Marissa E.

Marissa E. said:


> Yes their noses are FADED they were not born pink.


Actually I will rephrase that since technically yellow with black pigment newborns have pink noses...
Their noses were once black and now they are faded. Common during winter,or with aging.


----------



## keepitsimple

Marissa E. said:


> Yes their noses are FADED they were not born pink.


i stand corrected


----------



## Renee P.

Is keepitsimple for real?

I think we are being trolled.


----------



## Bridget Bodine

keepitsimple said:


> sorry still a dq


 no it is not, and you know this from all of your experience in the show ring and hanging out with show breeders???


----------



## Sharon Potter

Lack of knowledge of the breed standard...which is easily accessed online and not that long of a read...tends to be standard procedure for those breeding dilute colors. One website I saw had the breeder going on and on about how they breed to the standard....yet they have clearly never read it through or else refuse to read the part about dilutes and disqualifying color. The same site is all excited about their first puppy that is a field champion....because it got a JH ribbon. 

If the dilute breeders really want acceptance rather than argument, they would be best served by doing their homework, researching the breed (and the sport!) from all sides rather than the narrow viewpoint that supports the disqualifications without taking into consideration the breed as a whole. As long as they simply argue, with very little knowledge to back it up other than conjecture, they cannot and will not be taken seriously.


----------



## Bubba

Seems like it is AWFUL early in the summer to see folks biting on topwater bait like this Pindeco is spewing.

Watch the bobber regards

Bubba


----------



## Todd Caswell

Bubba said:


> Seems like it is AWFUL early in the summer to see folks biting on topwater bait like this Pindeco is spewing.
> 
> Watch the bobber regards
> 
> Bubba


Better yet watch your own bobber


----------



## Bubba

Todd Caswell said:


> Better yet watch your own bobber



Haven't seen that summich in YEARS

Happy Hour regards

Bubba


----------



## Swack

keepitsimple said:


> thanks for spelling it out for me - appreciate it
> 
> i'm not suggesting changing anything -i breed my dogs to be better hunters - that's it - the beef i have with this guy is that he as well as others are making a motion to make it impossible to even register dilute labs or standard color labs carrying the dilute gene - making them inelligible for competiton, which pisses me off! the notion that they should not be bred becaase it doesn't meet the breed standard is non-sense - it happens every day by breeding a >80 pound stud or anything else outside of the breed standard - too tall, too short, no pigment in eyes, nose - there seems to be a laser focus on the dilute because of the backyard breeders trying to make an easy buck - which also happens every day with the standard colors.
> 
> The writers of the original british standard - serious? you know that it was for Black only - why was chocolate ever accepted?
> 
> now let me spell this out for you: a dilute chocolate lab is in fact a chocolate lab - if you breed a EEbbdd with a EEbbDD - you will end up with a litter of EEbbDd -standard chocolate labs that only carry the dilute gene - now breed one of those dogs with another EEbbDD and you will end up with 1/2 the litter being EEbbDD - NOT A DILUTE CARRIER -
> 
> i breed to hunt not for color and have all of the health checks (OFA, CERF, CNM, EIC) - done before breeding and only breed with a standard color - no skin issues - i am a licensed professional and don't need the peanuts i make from this - anything i make gets dumped back into research and training.
> 
> So to sum it up - i'm good the way it is with the registration - call me what you want - but i will fight to the end if anyone tries to take what i have.
> 
> that's all i got to say 'bout that


keepitsimple,

You can breed whatever you like for your own purposes. If they please you that's great. Just don't call them Labrador retrievers. 

I'm not a hater. I'm a lover. A lover of the breed. I hate seeing it defiled. Doesn't matter if it's for greed, ignorance, or arrogance. It's still wrong. 

If you consider a silver a good representative of the Labrador breed, why do you "only breed them to a standard color"?

For what it's worth, I'm not OK with the way things are in terms of dilute registration policy. IMHO they should not be registered or bred, just like a Lab with black and tan point markings. Clear evidence of evil that should not be tolerated, let alone condoned or worse yet promoted.

By the way, I didn't see an answer to my question. Maybe more evidence of your inability to comprehend written English. But I'll give it one more try just to be fair.

Please tell me one good reason why I should accept the silver Lab (and other dilutes) as a proper representative of and asset to the Labrador breed?

Swack


----------



## SPEED

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Technically a champagne, would be a yellow dilute eeBBdd, eeBbdd (you wouldn't be able to tell they were dilute, they'd be in breed standard, just a light yellow); black nose and eye rims. I'm not sure what the dudley dilute eebbdd, would look like but I bet it would be just a lightly color dudley (yellow dog, brown-pink nose-eye rims), and you couldn't tell it carried the dilute gene either. The silver shows up best on the brown coat type; many black dilutes "charcoal's" if that's a word are black in breed standard and you can't really tell they're dilute, unless someone told you they were; you'd just consider them a dull-dirty black dog. Heck I often have charcoal dogs, when they've been rolling in the dirt. Many the eyes show up blue; but they change to amber (which is in breed standard) They are hiding in plain sight.


Now if you really want a designer color just get a light yellow and dye it the color you want. You could even make it match your outfit. ;-) Yes, that is true - you would have no idea the yellow as a dilute that I know of anyway. I never thought about it and never saw one that was called a champagne. Not sure what the pigment would be.


----------



## SPEED

keepitsimple said:


> thanks for spelling it out for me - appreciate it
> 
> i'm not suggesting changing anything -i breed my dogs to be better hunters - that's it - the beef i have with this guy is that he as well as others are making a motion to make it impossible to even register dilute labs or standard color labs carrying the dilute gene - making them inelligible for competiton, which pisses me off! the notion that they should not be bred becaase it doesn't meet the breed standard is non-sense - it happens every day by breeding a >80 pound stud or anything else outside of the breed standard - too tall, too short, no pigment in eyes, nose - there seems to be a laser focus on the dilute because of the backyard breeders trying to make an easy buck - which also happens every day with the standard colors.
> 
> The writers of the original british standard - serious? you know that it was for Black only - why was chocolate ever accepted?
> 
> now let me spell this out for you: a dilute chocolate lab is in fact a chocolate lab - if you breed a EEbbdd with a EEbbDD - you will end up with a litter of EEbbDd -standard chocolate labs that only carry the dilute gene - now breed one of those dogs with another EEbbDD and you will end up with 1/2 the litter being EEbbDD - NOT A DILUTE CARRIER -
> 
> i breed to hunt not for color and have all of the health checks (OFA, CERF, CNM, EIC) - done before breeding and only breed with a standard color - no skin issues - i am a licensed professional and don't need the peanuts i make from this - anything i make gets dumped back into research and training.
> 
> So to sum it up - i'm good the way it is with the registration - call me what you want - but i will fight to the end if anyone tries to take what i have.
> 
> that's all i got to say 'bout that


Just curious, why did you ever get into dd dogs instead of the standard colors. I am sure it is a lot easier to find good gundogs in the standard population because you have a bigger selection of dogs. If you are just interested in a good gundog... then why silver? Kind of a contradiction. Just an observation.


----------



## Montview

Hunt'EmUp said:


> There are many companies offering a DNA breed identification tests it is mostly done for those who wish to see what kind've mix their dogs are, and what disease they maybe prone to later. A few studies have been on going to correctly identify shelter dogs, who before have been entirely based on what the pup looks like, which unsurprisingly doesn't hold up when genetics are tested. The wisdom panel is the probably the most well-known and most selective. While I'm sure that the test has limitations, it can identify a 100% pure-bred, vs. a cross several generations back for all the AKC recognized breeds, and a few more. If I had a Silver, I'd probably test it, if it came back 100% Labrador, I'd have something to show people. Still if the dd gene is a marker that doesn't identify as Lab you might have an issue, but if it's the only wacky gene out of all of them tested you've got a pretty good argument for saying it was hidden in the Lab genome.


They have actually been doing a bit of a non-scientific study through the veterinarian members of VIN (the Veterinary Information Network) that has apparently pretty much completely disproved these DNA tests for the most part. I believe the scenerio was that veterinarians were sending in samples on purebred and mixed breed dogs with proven heritage- ie- they knew exactly where the dogs came from with regard to breeding (not shelter dogs- and sent in random photos that weren't necessarily those dogs. Such as a purebred show champion doberman supposedly testing as a mix of a bloodhound, a terrier, and some other breed. The Wisdom panel was considered one of the better ones, but it still had a number of problematic results....


----------



## Montview

afdahl said:


> I have it on what I consider good authority that at least some of them are purebred, as "pure" as any individual in a breed that has had a closed stud book only around 100 years. That is, from Dr. Mark Neff, a UCBerkeley researcher on the Canine Genome project, who has collected reports and pedigrees from breeders who have unexpectedly had "silvers" appear in litters. "You wouldn't believe" some of the bloodlines in which they are appearing; pedigree analysis shows the presence of the allele in the breed to go far back.


This is interesting. I know someone else (a scientist by trade) who had spoken to Dr. Neff back then as well for research purposes and Dr. Neff had himself told them that he was not investigating whether or not silvers are purebred.


----------



## Guest

I'm going to address this from a biologist standpoint. First off, all dogs are technically the same species so you're going to have a very high level of genetic similarity across the board. Resign yourself to that. Second all of this talk about genetics is pointless until each breed has had it's genome sequenced to establish a normal variance in alleles for each locus. Going on from that, to the best of my knowledge the list of breeds (and mutts) used to develop the modern lab is not comprehensive, nor are the lists for those breeds. It is entirely possible that the dilution gene has always existed but only in such a small proportion that only in recent decades has it begun to manifest in large enough numbers to garner public knowledge. On that note, the subject of Weimaraner crossbreeding. No evidence. This one gene is no where near enough. Assuming that sequenced genomes were available for both Labradors and weimeraners a DNA test could easily verify this over centuries of time. Modern evolutionary biologists and geneticists can even tell you which parent a specific allele in a homozygous individual came from in certain cases. As for the weimeraner relatedness, because of recombination, the closer two alleles are on the genome, the more likely it is that they came from the same source. They tend to recombine in bunches not individually. Thus, if there was weimeraner in them, it would be most likely to appear near the gene in question. The farther you get from this gene, the less likely it is to find a gene that would verify your suspicion of weimeraner contamination. Also a possibility is that the dilution is a recent mutation. Since natural selection wouldn't select against it as domestic animals don't really have to survive on their own, whether or not the gene survived and spread would be entirely dependent on the factors affecting breeders choice. As for the health of silver labs overall, I withhold judgement until I have a DNA test in front of me, which checks for the same issues that all recognized breeders of conventional colors test their lauded lines for. It is possible that silver labs suffer from inbreeding, by the same token the could be as healthy as the best lines available. On that note, both chocolate and yellow labs were once denied the same status dilutes (and I think Dudley's are still trying as well) are trying to achieve now. Until this information is available, we're all just griping about a color preference. Personally, the best lab I've owned to date had a mismark white patch on his chest. Given that, I take the strictness of the standard with a grain of salt. Frankly, if the only difference is the one gene, I would welcome their addition. New colors might help to maintain the popularity of the breed in a world where designer dogs are becoming popular.


----------



## kelrobin

adrieni said:


> New colors might help to maintain the popularity of the breed


There are some of us who are not thrilled that the Labrador Retriever is the most popular dog.


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## wjtb23

"Fox Red" is the actual color of the original Yellows...more along the lines of the Golden Retrievers. The Kennel Clubs decided to call the color Yellow. Its only because of selected breeding to lighter and lighter yellows that the accepted color range for yellows is Fox Red to almost White.


----------



## Jeannie Greenlee

> Second all of this talk about genetics is pointless until each breed has had it's genome sequenced to establish a normal variance in alleles for each locus.


This just brings up the question in my mind as to how are companies testing mutts for the breed mixture that has made them? Are these just rip offs?
www.wisdompanel.com/


----------



## badbullgator

adrieni said:


> I'm going to address this from a biologist standpoint. First off, all dogs are technically the same species so you're going to have a very high level of genetic similarity across the board. Resign yourself to that. Second all of this talk about genetics is pointless until each breed has had it's genome sequenced to establish a normal variance in alleles for each locus. Going on from that, to the best of my knowledge the list of breeds (and mutts) used to develop the modern lab is not comprehensive, nor are the lists for those breeds. It is entirely possible that the dilution gene has always existed but only in such a small proportion that only in recent decades has it begun to manifest in large enough numbers to garner public knowledge. On that note, the subject of Weimaraner crossbreeding. No evidence. This one gene is no where near enough. Assuming that sequenced genomes were available for both Labradors and weimeraners a DNA test could easily verify this over centuries of time. Modern evolutionary biologists and geneticists can even tell you which parent a specific allele in a homozygous individual came from in certain cases. As for the weimeraner relatedness, because of recombination, the closer two alleles are on the genome, the more likely it is that they came from the same source. They tend to recombine in bunches not individually. Thus, if there was weimeraner in them, it would be most likely to appear near the gene in question. The farther you get from this gene, the less likely it is to find a gene that would verify your suspicion of weimeraner contamination. Also a possibility is that the dilution is a recent mutation. Since natural selection wouldn't select against it as domestic animals don't really have to survive on their own, whether or not the gene survived and spread would be entirely dependent on the factors affecting breeders choice. As for the health of silver labs overall, I withhold judgement until I have a DNA test in front of me, which checks for the same issues that all recognized breeders of conventional colors test their lauded lines for. It is possible that silver labs suffer from inbreeding, by the same token the could be as healthy as the best lines available. On that note, both chocolate and yellow labs were once denied the same status dilutes (and I think Dudley's are still trying as well) are trying to achieve now. Until this information is available, we're all just griping about a color preference. Personally, the best lab I've owned to date had a mismark white patch on his chest. Given that, I take the strictness of the standard with a grain of salt. Frankly, if the only difference is the one gene, I would welcome their addition. New colors might help to maintain the popularity of the breed in a world where designer dogs are becoming popular.


Aint it nice to have an expert opinion from a first time poster. No evidence of an agenda, this is the final word from a "biologist"


----------



## Labs

adrieni said:


> Personally, the best lab I've owned to date had a mismark white patch on his chest. Given that, I take the strictness of the standard with a grain of salt.


A white patch on the chest is allowable, per the breed standard...so, take it with a grain of salt all you want, your dog met the standard...

_Color: The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black-Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow-Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate-Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.
_


----------



## Guest

badbullgator said:


> Aint it nice to have an expert opinion from a first time poster. No evidence of an agenda, this is the final word from a "biologist"


If you think I'm full of it, pick up a textbook on genetics or evolutionary biology. Every topic I've discussed, including the establishment of a baseline for research comparison, is covered as part of standard education for biology students. Personally, when I took the course we used Evolution By Douglas J. Futuyma 2nd edition and Genetics: A conceptual approach by Benjamin A. Pierce 4th edition. The bottom line, we don't have enough information to verify this one way or another. Until we do, which isn't likely unless someone wants to start a fund to sequence the genomes of all officially recognized Labrador lines, neither argument can be validated.


----------



## Wazo

Whether or not we can PROVE where the dilute gene originated from is not even the point (although I totally agree with original poster), the fact is that silver, charcoal, etc does NOT meet the LRC standard & is not desirable. We deserve the right to know the correct coat color on a pedigree. There should AT LEAST be a code in the registration number that "marks" the dilute gene. AKCdid this with another breed years ago, but only at the insistence if the Parent Club. The protest of the silver labs should be taken up with them. AKC won't address it until then. Unfortunately, as long as both parents are registered, the pups can be as well. And that's all the AKC cares about! If we have any sign/suspicion of the dilute gene being in the pedigree, we test for it!


----------



## David Martin

kelrobin said:


> There are some of us who are not thrilled that the Labrador Retriever is the most popular dog.



Exactly, we don't need to maintain the popularity of the breed, we need to maintain the breed itself!

The silver lab folks need to follow the laberdoodle people and just call it a weimnerlab or a labereiner!


----------



## badbullgator

adrieni said:


> If you think I'm full of it, pick up a textbook on genetics or evolutionary biology. Every topic I've discussed, including the establishment of a baseline for research comparison, is covered as part of standard education for biology students. Personally, when I took the course we used Evolution By Douglas J. Futuyma 2nd edition and Genetics: A conceptual approach by Benjamin A. Pierce 4th edition. The bottom line, we don't have enough information to verify this one way or another. Until we do, which isn't likely unless someone wants to start a fund to sequence the genomes of all officially recognized Labrador lines, neither argument can be validated.


Um, thanks I have read one or two.


----------



## LGH

Or a labweiner


----------



## Julie R.

adrieni said:


> If you think I'm full of it, pick up a textbook on genetics or evolutionary biology. Every topic I've discussed, including the establishment of a baseline for research comparison, is covered as part of standard education for biology students. Personally, when I took the course we used Evolution By Douglas J. Futuyma 2nd edition and Genetics: A conceptual approach by Benjamin A. Pierce 4th edition. The bottom line, we don't have enough information to verify this one way or another. Until we do, which isn't likely unless someone wants to start a fund to sequence the genomes of all officially recognized Labrador lines, neither argument can be validated.


Your schooling is not pertinent to this thread. Bottom line as has already been stated MANY times: it doesn't matter where the dilution gene came from. Yes it's possible that some of the background dogs bred to Labs in the early history of the breed had it, some of their ancestors were also black & tan, curled tails (Norwegian elkhound) etc., but for over 100 years the expression of dilute colors is a trait that has been expressly selected AGAINST by the parent club. Not because it's thought to come from Weim crosses (although most knowledgeable people think it did, since its existence was virtually unheard of before the Weim & Lab breeder Crist Culo started peddling his dilutes 30 years ago. Hence it's a disqualification. Further--there is no one of any consequence in Labradordom breeding them except beginner know it alls that see a quick buck.


----------



## Raymond Little

Julie R. said:


> Your schooling is not pertinent to this thread. Bottom line as has already been stated MANY times: it doesn't matter where the dilution gene came from. Yes it's possible that some of the background dogs bred to Labs in the early history of the breed had it, some of their ancestors were also black & tan, curled tails (Norwegian elkhound) etc., but for over 100 years the expression of dilute colors is a trait that has been expressly selected AGAINST by the parent club. Not because it's thought to come from Weim crosses (although most knowledgeable people think it did, since its existence was virtually unheard of before the Weim & Lab breeder Crist Culo started peddling his dilutes 30 years ago. Hence it's a disqualification. Further--there is no one of any consequence in Labradordom breeding them except beginner know it alls that see a quick buck.


Damn Gurl you is smokin! Labradordom?????


----------



## limiman12

Sharon Potter said:


> Jeffrey, to add a bit to that: There are CH/MH dogs out there...not a ton, but some. They earned their CH under judges who will put up a moderately built dog rather than rewarding extremes. There is also a level of fault that lies with some field breeders who don't look at structure and instead breed for what will win in their venue. Competition....on both the show and field side...tends to split a breed because of the extremes that result, and both sides say that blue ribbons make their dogs look just fine. If it wins, it gets to reproduce...and the cycle goes on.


. Wish there was a like button


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## kelrobin

adrieni said:


> Personally, the best lab I've owned to date had a mismark white patch on his chest.


A white patch on the chest is not a mismark. It is allowed by the Lab standard had you bothered to actually read it. 

These are mismarks http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html


----------



## Guest

The white patch is still considered not desirable by the breed standard. That is the point I was trying to make with that.


----------



## Billie

but it is mentioned in the standard as being acceptable, whereas it describes only three colors.


----------



## shawninthesticks

adrieni said:


> The white patch is still considered not desirable by the breed standard. That is the point I was trying to make with that.


So since you cant get anywhere with your silver sales pitch ,your reduced down to picking at the occasional white spot ?!


----------



## badbullgator

adrieni said:


> The white patch is still considered not desirable by the breed standard. That is the point I was trying to make with that.


not very good at making your point are you?


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## David Martin

I have yet to see a silver win or run at a trial or hunt test, for that matter I have yet to see even a picture of a silver with a bird in it's mouth!
Silver breeders are shameless cross breeders that see a buck and want to exploit it! The silver breeders are mills that don't give a damn about health, performance or improvement of the Labrador breed. They are in the business to sell trendy people an exotic! Sell it as a weimerlab or laberiner, but don't try to ruin the gene pool of the greatest breed of dog in history! Have some shame and think of those that breed, train and run truly great dogs, we do this out of passion not just to make money!


The Weim, is a great dog in it own right, that being said I would put a GSP, Llewellyn, English Setter, Field Red or English Pointer against a Weim in the field any day!


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## Mike Peters-labguy23

The biggest thing that sticks out to me is that no silvers *EVER *show up when breeders aren't expecting them. They only show up when breeders try to get them.


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## polmaise

Colonel Blimp said:


> Who he? What axe he grind?
> 
> The cost quoted for a DNA test is JAWAG, but whatever it is it won't be cheap, and if it really is conclusive those are exactly the reasons why the breeders in the show / designer dog fraternity won't play ball. Why pay good money to prove their dogs aren't qualified for competition, or aren't genuine Labs? The implication is that it will be left to the working dog fraternities on both sides of the pond to take "unofficial" action, just as we do with health issues. I have deep sentiments of no enthusiasm for the Kennel Club, they are a millstone round the neck of the sporting breeds, and *I hereby predict that in ten years time the business of "silver" Labs (in the UK at any rate) will be in just exactly the same fine mess as it is now*. Having said that I find no evidence of the b******s putting in a appearance here; no one is advertising them.
> 
> Eug


http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/pre...ub-addresses-concerns-on-undesirable-colours/


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## badbullgator

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> The biggest thing that sticks out to me is that no silvers *EVER *show up when breeders aren't expecting them. They only show up when breeders try to get them.



Excellent point.


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## kelrobin

adrieni said:


> The white patch is *still considered not desirable by the breed standard*. That is the point I was trying to make with that.



But it IS allowed, unlike the silver color. My pick bitch out of my last litter had a white patch on her chest. I show in conformation as well as doing obedience and field with my Labs. I have no trouble keeping one with white on its chest since it's allowed by the breed standard. I'm not sure what standard you are reading, but Labs only come in 3 colors, black, yellow and chocolate, and a white patch is allowed.

If you're trying to make a point, you're making a piss-poor one.


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## .44 magnum

I've never seen a "Silver Lab" with the kind expression, or slight look of sadness a real Labrador has.. No disrespect meant to anyone who owns a Silver... they are ugly dogs...


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## luvalab

There is no such thing as a s----- L--. Every time someone says or writes s----- L-- as if it's something real, my head starts to hurt. Why legitimize it by talking about it as if it's a "thing"? 

Let it go,
Let it GO!

The only reason I'm posting on this s-----L-- thread is because I have a really strong record as a thread killer.


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## jackh

I am not trying to stir the pot. 

I was telling a friend about this thread and basically telling him to not get a silver lab if he ever had the idea to do so. He asked "for the normal pet owner that doesn't care to compete or anything with the dog, what does it matter? Lots of people adopt or buy non purebred dogs"

What do y'all say to that? I told him that it just dilutes the breed standard and it's not right to register a non purebred dog as a purebred lab.


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## HuntinDawg

jackh said:


> I am not trying to stir the pot.
> 
> I was telling a friend about this thread and basically telling him to not get a silver lab if he ever had the idea to do so. He asked "for the normal pet owner that doesn't care to compete or anything with the dog, what does it matter? Lots of people adopt or buy non purebred dogs"
> 
> What do y'all say to that? I told him that it just dilutes the breed standard and it's not right to register a non purebred dog as a purebred lab.


I would ask if he likes doing business with scam artists and enjoys overpaying fraudsters for something that isn't authentic. How much would he like to pay for a fake Rolex and why would he line the pockets of the counterfeit artist? If he wants to adopt a "silver lab" OR ANY OTHER MIXED BREED DOG from a pound/rescue that would be great but to line the pockets of those who are defrauding the public and willfully damaging the breed is a really bad idea.

If he remains unconvinced tell him I said a Nigerian prince left him billions of dollars and he should PM me for details on how to collect.


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## HuntinDawg

kelrobin said:


> But it IS allowed, unlike the silver color. My pick bitch out of my last litter had a white patch on her chest. I show in conformation as well as doing obedience and field with my Labs. I have no trouble keeping one with white on its chest since it's allowed by the breed standard. I'm not sure what standard you are reading, but Labs only come in 3 colors, black, yellow and chocolate, and a white patch is allowed.
> 
> If you're trying to make a point, you're making a piss-poor one.


Game, set, match.


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## Julie R.

jackh said:


> I am not trying to stir the pot.
> 
> I was telling a friend about this thread and basically telling him to not get a silver lab if he ever had the idea to do so. He asked "for the normal pet owner that doesn't care to compete or anything with the dog, what does it matter? Lots of people adopt or buy non purebred dogs"
> 
> What do y'all say to that? I told him that it just dilutes the breed standard and it's not right to register a non purebred dog as a purebred lab.


I wish I could have these people talk to my sister. She went out and got a silver Lab and of course did not tell me beforehand. Her dogs are strictly pets but even so, she was royally ripped off. She bought him online and after driving 5 hrs., she was not allowed to see the parents (probably brother & sister) nor the other pups. Her dog is not registered with the AKC but she like most pet buyers assume that because the dog had "papers" it was a purebred. I think it's registered with the Continental KC or some other bogus registry started by shysters kicked out of AKC.

Fast forward to now, her poor pup just turned two and will be lucky to make it another year. At 10 mos. he was diagnosed with crippling dysplasia in both hips & elbows. Most of the time he needs help getting up and he's already on rimadyl and other drugs to keep him as pain free as possible. He also has a host of auto immune problems. He's a sweet dog, but a genetic train wreck. My sister is not a dummy but she got sucked in by a slick website and load of crap.


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## Sharon Potter

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> The biggest thing that sticks out to me is that no silvers *EVER *show up when breeders aren't expecting them. They only show up when breeders try to get them.


^^^ This. Exactly. ^^^


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## jackh

HuntinDawg said:


> I would ask if he likes doing business with scam artists and enjoys overpaying fraudsters for something that isn't authentic. How much would he like to pay for a fake Rolex and why would he line the pockets of the counterfeit artist? If he wants to adopt a "silver lab" OR ANY OTHER MIXED BREED DOG from a pound/rescue that would be great but to line the pockets of those who are defrauding the public and willfully damaging the breed is a really bad idea.
> 
> If he remains unconvinced tell him I said a Nigerian prince left him billions of dollars and he should PM me for details on how to collect.


haha this is great thanks


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## wushusmackdown

Has this gone anywhere lately? I haven't really seen anything concrete pushing this in one direction or another since spring. Personally, I'd like to see a scientific study done so we can wrap this up and call it a day. Planning on getting a lab once I finish my DVM so I'd like to know whether or not this is something I really need to check for.


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## afdahl

Mike Peters-labguy23 said:


> The biggest thing that sticks out to me is that no silvers *EVER *show up when breeders aren't expecting them. They only show up when breeders try to get them.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 

I've had evidence I find believable, in that a canine genetics researcher told me that Lab breeders who had "silvers" show up unexpectedly were sending him their pedigrees and, he said, they're showing up where you'd least expect. So either he is lying, or they are showing up unintended in litters.

Helen Warwick documented two whelped in Scotland in 1932. Unintended.

Amy Dahl


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## kona's mom

Amy can you list the source for the comment by Helen and the exact quote. TY


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## afdahl

The source was Mark Neff, who at the time was at UC Berkeley and collecting pedigrees of "silver" Labs as part of his research. I don't remember the exact words; wasn't recording the conversation. His pedigree analysis indicated that the mutation has been in the breed since before their importation to the US. Dr. Neff also reminded me of pleiotropy, which, like the historic presence of the d allele in Labradors, is a fact generally rejected here on RTF. Pleiotropy is the phenomenon where one gene controls multiple traits which may appear unrelated. It is well documented in genetics. Because of pleiotropy, we cannot assume that, for example, Labradors of the three recognized colors are exactly equal in all other traits.

Many people are familiar with Mendel's Second Law, the "one gene-one trait" hypothesis. But most people's knowledge of genetics stops with Mendel, and they are not aware that all of Mendel's laws, although they held true for the pea plants he studied (thereby allowing him to develop the gene theory of inheritance) have been found not to be true in general. 

Oops, I misread. You asked about the Warwick quotation not Dr. Neff's. I am at work and the book is at home. It is "The Complete Labrador Retriever." I don't remember the exact words, but in a section on mismarks she mentions a pair of blue-white puppies born in Scotland in 1932. Having supervised the whelping of ash-colored Chesapeakes (bbdd like silver Labradors) that is what they look like at birth.

Amy DAhl


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## kona's mom

afdahl said:


> The source was Mark Neff, who at the time was at UC Berkeley and collecting pedigrees of "silver" Labs as part of his research. I don't remember the exact words; wasn't recording the conversation. His pedigree analysis indicated that the mutation has been in the breed since before their importation to the US. Dr. Neff also reminded me of pleiotropy, which, like the historic presence of the d allele in Labradors, is a fact generally rejected here on RTF. Pleiotropy is the phenomenon where one gene controls multiple traits which may appear unrelated. It is well documented in genetics. Because of pleiotropy, we cannot assume that, for example, Labradors of the three recognized colors are exactly equal in all other traits.
> 
> Many people are familiar with Mendel's Second Law, the "one gene-one trait" hypothesis. But most people's knowledge of genetics stops with Mendel, and they are not aware that all of Mendel's laws, although they held true for the pea plants he studied (thereby allowing him to develop the gene theory of inheritance) have been found not to be true in general.
> 
> Oops, I misread. You asked about the Warwick quotation not Dr. Neff's. I am at work and the book is at home. It is "The Complete Labrador Retriever." I don't remember the exact words, but in a section on mismarks she mentions a pair of blue-white puppies born in Scotland in 1932. Having supervised the whelping of ash-colored Chesapeakes (bbdd like silver Labradors) that is what they look like at birth.
> 
> Amy DAhl



Ok if that's the quote I am thinking of , and I'm pretty sure it's the same, the puppies did survive to adulthood and were extremely black. It was undercoat described at whelping.


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## duk4me

Oh Lord........


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## afdahl

kona's mom said:


> Ok if that's the quote I am thinking of , and I'm pretty sure it's the same, the puppies did survive to adulthood and were extremely black. It was undercoat described at whelping.


Now I'm the one who would like the reference! Can you share?

Amy Dahl


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## kona's mom

afdahl said:


> Now I'm the one who would like the reference! Can you share?
> 
> Amy Dahl


Same book and same part of the mismark description. I'll get the verbatim later tonight after work


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## windycanyon

I think what Nicole is referring to above is the same that Mary Roslin Williams discussed in her book, "Reaching for the Stars" on p. 101. It was a litter at birth which appeared "bluish or silver", stripey, and they turned to black. 
Heck, I've had them here too in both my blacks and chocs. As I recall, Mata (dominant black) was one of them yet she is tested DD (no dilute) along w/ everyone else here. Anne


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## Raymond Little

Mississippi
AKC registered silver male lab..champion bloodline, have one male left will be ready now will come Dewormed, vet checked, first set of shots, and started on hard food... Both parents are excellent hunters,great temperament call or text $700 for limited registration $800 for full registration.

These are in Lake Charles, resisting the urge to call and ask questions.
Taking deposits for AKC SILVER LAB puppies due at the end of November 2014. Deposits are 200$ and are non-refundable unless there is not enough puppies per deposits. But you will be kept in order so that if someone cancels you may get one. If interested please email me at


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## kona's mom

Long post ahead 
Here are the excerpts. First is Helen Warwick:

The Complete Labrador Retriever, Helen Warwick, 1964, p. 110

"Regarding other rare colors, an interesting report from a 1933 issue of The Gamekeeper mentions a strain of "white Labradors" that was treasured by Mr. Austin MacKenzie at Carradale, Argyleshire. They originated from a dog owned by Mr. Fenwick, called Sam, whose grand sire was Stag, the sire of Major Portal's Flapper. Sam came from the Duke of Buccleugh's imported strain of Blacks, yet three litters by Sam were all buff-colored except except one bitch which was pure white. This bitch was later mated with Lord Lonsdale's Blanco, a bluish white dog by Capt. Radclyffe's Ben of Hyde; the result was eight white puppies, and the color was apparently fixed."

The New Complete Labrador Retriever, Third Edition, Helen Warwick, 1986, p. 114

"Regarding other rare colors, an interesting report from a 1933 issue of The Gamekeeper mentions a strain of "white Labradors" that was treasured by Mr. Austin MacKenzie at Carradale, Argyleshire. They originated from a dog owned by Mr. Fenwick, called Sam, whose grand sire was Stag, the sire of Major Portal's Flapper. Sam came from the Duke of Buccleugh's imported strain of Blacks, yet three litters by Sam were all buff-colored except except one bitch which was pure white. This bitch was later mated with Lord Lonsdale's Blanco, a bluish white dog by Capt. Radclyffe's Ben of Hyde; the result was eight white puppies, and the color was apparently fixed."

P. 119
"White -Hair Condition in Black Labrador Retrievers"

"The temporary appearance of white hairs in 2 to 5 month old black Labrador Retrievers occurs frequently in all parts of the United States.(1). During the past five years I have see. The condition in more than 100 puppies.

White hairs first appear singly on the feet and legs, later spreading with variable density to other parts of the body. The degree of discoloration varies considerably - even among littermates. Usually the undercoat grays, giving the coat a salt-and-pepper appearance. In one case in our practice the discoloration was so extensive that the coloring of the dog was more typical of a Weimeraner than of a black Labrador.

Development and disappearance of the condition may be rapid or slow. In my experience, the white hairs have disappeared by the time the animal is a year old and the puppy has been shed. I know of no instance in which which the condition has recurred.

The condition appears in unrelated lines from both field and bench stock. Affected litters may or may not carry yellow genes. Occurrence of the condition in puppies from breeding combinations that have previously produced unaffected litters gives some indication that the condition is not heritable.

Possible causative factors suggested by both dog owners and veterinarians include: diet, quantity or quality of vitamins, vermifuges and other drugs. However, I have seen the condition in puppies fed popular brands of dog foods, puppies given high levels of well-known brands of vitamins, and puppies that have never been treated with vermifuges or other drugs.

Speculation has been that secondary hairs (several of which surround each primary hair in the young dog) undergo an aging process similar to the grating of hair in man and other older animals, (2) but this theory has not been proven.

The major concern about the condition is not that it will have any permanent adverse effect on the breed or individual animals, but that potential buyers are reluctant to buy salt-and-pepper Labrador puppies. Most breeders realize that the problem is geographically widespread in unrelated blood lines and that it is only temporary; however, they often encounter difficulty in selling affected puppies.

When asked to help a breeder overcome resistance of potential buyers, or to calm an irate buyer whose black puppy has started to turn white, I explain the temporary nature of the condition and suggest that the breeder offer a guarantee of the puppy's coloring at maturity. This is a valuable service the veterinarian can perform for breeders. He must, however, be certain that he has first distinguished between the described white-hair condition and a true mismarking in which white patches are present on otherwise black puppies at birth.

(1) McCarthy, S.B., "Color Clearing, No Cause For Concern," Popular Dogs ( March 1965), p. 49
(2) Getty, Robert, Iowa State University, personal communication


And MRW:

Reaching For The Stars
P101
There is another color which I had heard of but never seen and that was a rumor of a bluish or silver Labrador in the old days, with a dark stripe or stripes down the back. Funnily enough a litter of these turned up recently from a perfectly reputable breeding and in the hands of a good breeder who knew that no misalliance had taken place. The breeder took some colored photos of the litter in which the puppies were silver, marked all over with dark stripes just like a tabby cat. We were all stunned and fascinated and many were the guesses as to what they would turn out to be, but several of us guessed right and they gradually turned black although they had been a true light silver. However even in black Labradors there is black and black and I haven't seen these puppies when adult to know what shade of black they became, whether a dull lead as I would expect or a true black.*
* Afterwards I saw one of this litter at a show and it was true black with a really good undercoat.

Reaching For The Stars
P 103
Silverish or purpley- brown puppies in the nest will turn black and are very common in black bloodlines....
...Lady Howe wrote in "Our Dogs", 'As for the mousy or grey coloring in puppies, this always denotes a typical Labrador coat. My Banchory Danilo had grey flanks and quarters when young. In the best strains the roots of the hair on the tail are often white.' Mr. J.C. Severn also writes 'All the best Labradors I have known ( black) have a mousy undercoat and many of them show a large amount of grey at the root of their undercoat.' I must say that this is the coat I have always liked best in my own Mansergh blacks, although I have sometimes been told I am wrong, but with such authorities as I have quoted. I stick to my guns that a Labrador may certainly have the white roots, the purpley or grey- black as a puppy and the mousy or contrasting undercoat. And I myself love the grey heels, this being a continuation of the undercoat.


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## afdahl

Well, I messed up. I stayed up late reading the Warwick book, and while I found all you quoted, the passage I remember is not in there. I am pretty sure it is not something I made up out of my own head! I think it is most likely something I read in another source I was using at the same time as the Warwick, in writing an article on color. It may be awhile before I can hunt it down and report back.

I apologize to all for the faulty information. 

Amy Dahl


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## wushusmackdown

Nothing to be overly concerned about then. Run a mixed breed test to make sure one of the dime a dozen unethical breeders that pop up hasn't managed to taint the line, get the health clearances and I'm good.


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## Julie R.

wushusmackdown said:


> Nothing to be overly concerned about then. Run a mixed breed test to make sure one of the dime a dozen unethical breeders that pop up hasn't managed to taint the line, get the health clearances and I'm good.


DNA testing is not that sophisticated. If the crossbreeding of, for example, Weimeraners was done a few generations back it would not show up in the DNA. Those "parentage" DNA kits to determine the make up of mutts aren't very reliable; a dog that had 3 generations of purebreds isn't going to show what else may be back there. The only definitive thing you can determine via DNA tests is that the parents are, indeed, those listed and only if both are available for testing.


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## Irishwhistler

AKC seemingly will do anything to make money, after all, they need to be able to pay for the "expertise" of their high salaried executive officers like V.P. DiNardo to represent us all on important issues such as our collective stance on the use of e-collars specific to canine behavior. They certainly DO NOT represent my stance on e-collar use, nor that of many other highly responsible owner / trainers of high performance sporting / field breed dogs.

A pathetic whoring of their responsabilitiy of maintaining the purity of a standard breed, the AKC should hang thejr head in shame as an organization. Hey-Hoe DiNardo NEEDS TO GO!

Irishwhistler


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## windycanyon

Julie R. said:


> DNA testing is not that sophisticated. If the crossbreeding of, for example, Weimeraners was done a few generations back it would not show up in the DNA. Those "parentage" DNA kits to determine the make up of mutts aren't very reliable; a dog that had 3 generations of purebreds isn't going to show what else may be back there. The only definitive thing you can determine via DNA tests is that the parents are, indeed, those listed and only if both are available for testing.


A while back, there was a show lab breeder on another forum who said she did it on her dogs just for fun and the test said her dogs (some CH's I think!) weren't purebred! I tell people not to waste their money.


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## wushusmackdown

give it a few years. They have the technology to go back hundreds of years, but it's not commercially viable at the moment. epigenetic testing will probably play a role in the future as well.


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