# Hillmann and Lardy



## PHRGold (Sep 23, 2013)

This is most likely a repeat thread but I couldn't find the original, so here goes:

Please compare and contrast the Hillmann and Lardy DVDs in 40 words or less. 😀


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

PHRGold said:


> This is most likely a repeat thread but I couldn't find the original, so here goes:
> 
> Please compare and contrast the Hillmann and Lardy DVDs in 40 words or less. &#55357;&#56832;


Mile Lardy has about 20 National field champions through his program, to my knowledge Hillman has not. I know that was not what your getting at, but sometimes proof is in the pudding. I do like the Hillman approach to puppy foundation as uses the dogs natural ability, desire and uses positivity to mold the dogs behaviour.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Misty Marsh said:


> Mile Lardy has about 20 National field champions through his program, to my knowledge Hillman has not. I know that was not what your getting at, but sometimes proof is in the pudding. I do like the Hillman approach to puppy foundation as uses the dogs natural ability, desire and uses positivity to mold the dogs behaviour.


Hillmann does have a pretty solid track record with derby dogs. I totally agree about all-age advanced training, blind work, etc. IMO, Lardy's program is the best out there. The 2 best aspects of Hillmann's program are, IMO.... 1.) Creating retrieving desire and balancing obedience in a young dog. 2.) Enhancing marking ability. 

#2 is most likely a direct result of having the dog steady and having it watch the bird all the way to the ground. Lot of programs are not that concerned with early steadiness. This affects their marking ability.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I was thinking the same only on a slightly different line. Bill is responsible for the most derby list champions in history, I believe. Lardy has won the most open nationals. These being two different stages in the dog's progression. People seem to be using Hillman for early development and Lardy for advanced work. That makes sense to me based on the accomplishments both guys are known for. I don't think the philosophies are mutually exclusive at all having seen a lot of the material.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Agree 100% Darrin


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I own both TRT2 and Hillmann's land and water fundamentals. They both do very similar basic drills.The biggest difference is their approach and philosophy.Hillmann uses repetition and the dogs natural and developed desire to condition the dog to give the desired response. This means he uses very light stim on the e-collar to re-enforce commands. He uses very little "correction" if any. This approach allows you to teach a pup to be steady at a young age without hurting retrieving desire. It also creates a dog with a lot of confidence and style because the dog is never really "forced" but the dog wants to do what you want, taught what is expected and conditioned to do it.....he uses the same approach when it comes to FF and does not ear pinch. Bill Hillmann has also trained a NAFC as well as at least 40-50 FCs so I'd say he's not just a derby dog trainer.

Lardy is of course one the most accomplished trainers ever like mentioned above the "proof is in the pudding".His program would be I guess what you would describe as more traditional. He uses traditional ear pinch FF, walking fetch, stick fetch where Hillmann goes straight into pile work after he conditions the fetch command through repetition and properly applied light e-collar nicks. So while they may go through a lot of the same drills after FF they are done in a different manner because a Hillmann trained dog has not been through ear pinch FF or the same CC process so you can't apply the level of stim. This is really important when it comes time to start running cold blinds. Hillmann's new DVD I believe will explain how he teaches running blinds.Lardy obviously also trains dogs that have a lot of style and confidence but as a new trainer I believe you have to be careful to read your dog and adjust accordingly. Lardy is an expert at it. With the Hillmann method its almost impossible for your dog to get to much pressure or create a dog that lacks confidence...if you are truly following his program from start to finish. You obviously still have to read your dog following Hillmann's program or any program but I think it's a little more forgiving.Overall I think Hillmann's program is a lot easier for me personally. I don't mind putting in the extra time. I also have never ear pinched a dog. I'm just learning and theses are my thoughts on it but know that I am very green and just learning myself.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Bradybuck said:


> I own both TRT2 and Hillmann's land and water fundamentals. They both do very similar basic drills.The biggest difference is their approach and philosophy.Hillmann uses repetition and the dogs natural and developed desire to condition the dog to give the desired response. This means he uses very light stim on the e-collar to re-enforce commands. He uses very little "correction" if any. This approach allows you to teach a pup to be steady at a young age without hurting retrieving desire. It also creates a dog with a lot of confidence and style because the dog is never really "forced" but the dog wants to do what you want, taught what is expected and conditioned to do it.....he uses the same approach when it comes to FF and does not ear pinch. Bill Hillmann has also trained a NAFC as well as at least 40-50 FCs so I'd say he's not just a derby dog trainer.
> 
> Lardy is of course one the most accomplished trainers ever like mentioned above the "proof is in the pudding".His program would be I guess what you would describe as more traditional. He uses traditional ear pinch FF, walking fetch, stick fetch where Hillmann goes straight into pile work after he conditions the fetch command through repetition and properly applied light e-collar nicks. So while they may go through a lot of the same drills after FF they are done in a different manner because a Hillmann trained dog has not been through ear pinch FF or the same CC process so you can't apply the level of stim. This is really important when it comes time to start running cold blinds. Hillmann's new DVD I believe will explain how he teaches running blinds.Lardy obviously also trains dogs that have a lot of style and confidence but as a new trainer I believe you have to be careful to read your dog and adjust accordingly. Lardy is an expert at it. With the Hillmann method its almost impossible for your dog to get to much pressure or create a dog that lacks confidence...if you are truly following his program from start to finish. You obviously still have to read your dog following Hillmann's program or any program but I think it's a little more forgiving.Overall I think Hillmann's program is a lot easier for me personally. I don't mind putting in the extra time. I also have never ear pinched a dog. I'm just learning and theses are my thoughts on it but know that I am very green and just learning myself.


IMO, you have to be just as careful with Hillmann's program not to become a nagger. Dogs can and will learn to ignore the stimulations and continue to do what they want if you are not careful and are 'scared' of correction. Dennis Voigt mentions this as well in previous threads when discussing the Hillmann method. Regardless at some point a dog will need correction(even one trained by Hillmann). Reading a dog and interpreting when/where to correct is not dependent on what program you choose to go by, be it Lardy, Hillmann, Graham, etc. To categorize Hillmann's program as more fair to the dog than Lardy's is just not accurate, IMO. Even in the training footage, Lardy is almost always giving the dogs the benefit of the doubt before correction, weighs his decisions based on dogs history and tendencies, and sets firm but fair standards.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

If I implied that the Hillmann program was more fair I didn't mean to. 

In his land and water fundamentals DVDs he uses the collar the same amount if not less than Lardy. It's only on "sit" and "fetch" that he uses it more.

I don't see how you could nag a dog using Hillmann's method since you very rarely use the collar for a correction.

In the rare instance that he does use the collar for a correction he does turn it up....it may not be demonstrated in one of his DVDs but I saw it at his seminar.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Bradybuck said:


> If I implied that the Hillmann program was more fair I didn't mean to.
> 
> In his land and water fundamentals DVDs he uses the collar the same amount if not less than Lardy. It's only on "sit" and "fetch" that he uses it more.
> 
> ...


"Nagging" has nothing to do with the collar, it is the perceived lighter than needed correction that is repeated over and over, when the dog repeatedly offends to a somewhat minor degree. The opposite of nagging would be stopping the dog at the first infraction and giving him or her a one time fairly heavy correction. The latter is usually more effective long term.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

John Robinson said:


> "Nagging" has nothing to do with the collar, it is the perceived lighter than needed correction that is repeated over and over, when the dog repeatedly offends to a somewhat minor degree. The opposite of nagging would be stopping the dog at the first infraction and giving him or her a one time fairly heavy correction. The latter is usually more effective long term.


There is no instance that I can recall (following Hillmann) where you would get in a situation that you would give a "perceived lighter than needed correction that is repeated over and over"

If you are truly following the program correctly.....now me personally I could screw up because I think it's our natural inclination to want to give a correction where Hillmann would simplify, clarify and practice


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## mrman (Feb 12, 2016)

So much for 40 words or less! ;-);-);-);-)


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Bradybuck said:


> There is no instance that I can recall (following Hillmann) where you would get in a situation that you would give a "perceived lighter than needed correction that is repeated over and over"


Actually no good trainer would do that, I was just describing what we mean by nagging. It can be done with nit picky collar corrections, over use of attrition or any number of ways. I like Hillman and agree he would never nag or promote nagging, neither would Lardy, Graham or any good trainer, it's something amateurs find themselves inadvertently doing as they get too focused on some minor detail.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mrman said:


> So much for 40 words or less! ;-);-);-);-)


Hey, this is RTF after all...


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Bamajeff, I do agree with what you stated now that I think about it. You do have to be careful. I don't think that Hillmann's method advocates nagging but if you tried to "correct" a dog with the e-collar using lots of light nicks you could be nagging.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

John Robinson said:


> Actually no good trainer would do that, I was just describing what we mean by nagging. It can be done with nit picky collar corrections, over use of attrition or any number of ways. I like Hillman and agree he would never nag or promote nagging, neither would Lardy, Graham or any good trainer, it's something amateurs find themselves inadvertently doing as they get too focused on some minor detail.


agreed......


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Misty Marsh said:


> Mile Lardy has about 20 National field champions through his program, to my knowledge Hillman has not.


I'm lost in the verbiage here. Can you clarify??


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I'm lost in the verbiage here. Can you clarify??


I think he's saying Lardy has trained more National Champions than Hillman, for what it's worth.


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## jollydog (Jul 10, 2006)

I had as a coach the top ranked player in the state of
Texas on my team from his freshman year through out. 
I have played tennis all my life and went to college on a tennis scholarship.( So it wasn't like 
I didn't have knowledge of the sport).
I spent my "spare" time going and watching the top tennis pro's at private clubs 
give lessons and drills. I picked up valuable information from all. It helped me tremendously 
with all my players, but especially my top ranked player. When I got into the dog world I have taken 
the same approach. Point is they ALL have something to offer and I have all the DVD's from the top 
Pro's and use quite a bit from all of them. Hillman is not a pro but he does have a lot to offer as well. 
Lardy, Rorem, Farmer and Aycock DVD's I go and review often. If you have never watched Rorem and Rex Carr
You are missing out as well as the Farmer Aycock. They all have valuable information. Judy Aycock made a comment after
Previewing their last DVD on Force Fetch that the information on the one DVD alone took her years to aquire when she studied with Rex Carr.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Has anyone ever looked at Hillman and thought - great if the dog naturally wants to play but not so great if they don't have a lot of drive? 

In my experience some dogs want to chase/retrieve and others not so much. With Lardy/Carr or whatever you want to call those programs, the basis for fetching is established regardless of the underlying desire the dog has. 

From the standpoint of picking programs it would seem to make sense to pick the one that's most likely to work for your dog, unless you're happy to retire/rehome him and get a new one with a different inclination toward his work.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

PHRGold said:


> This is most likely a repeat thread but I couldn't find the original, so here goes:
> 
> Please compare and contrast the Hillmann and Lardy DVDs in 40 words or less. 😀


Laurel and Hardy


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

polmaise said:


> Laurel and Hardy


Seriously??
Troll...


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

cakaiser said:


> Seriously??
> Troll...


No ! .member on here for some time ,but I don't subscribe to the program . Is that a crime ? 
Are You a 'sheeple' .


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

polmaise said:


> Laurel and Hardy


Bit rude, ol' chap, comparing accomplished, successful trainers to slapstick comedians. We enjoy and admire our sport, thanks ever so much for giving us glimpses into your view of sportsmanship.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Bit rude, ol' chap, comparing accomplished, successful trainers to slapstick comedians. We enjoy and admire our sport, thanks ever so much for giving us glimpses into your view of sportsmanship.


Depends on how one takes it or receives it . Often when one has one on a level that one is not able to achieve One is often defending one's comment's .
Laurel and Hardy were very accomplished and experts in their field old chap , if one studies them .


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Has anyone ever looked at Hillman and thought - great if the dog naturally wants to play but not so great if they don't have a lot of drive?
> 
> In my experience some dogs want to chase/retrieve and others not so much. With Lardy/Carr or whatever you want to call those programs, the basis for fetching is established regardless of the underlying desire the dog has.
> 
> From the standpoint of picking programs it would seem to make sense to pick the one that's most likely to work for your dog, unless you're happy to retire/rehome him and get a new one with a different inclination toward his work.


I think the Hillmann approach is especially good for the inexperienced trainer with s high drive dog. The method by which he achieves steadiness is easily implemented without sacrificing style. More experienced trainers, and those beginners who study Lardy's program and listen can get similar results with Lardy. I think Lardy's gradual steadying is better suited for the low drive dog. The reason being most trainers will not hold off on doing sit & walking on lead in favor of excitement retrieves only. Again probably an inexperienced trainer making this error. 

If you are saying a force based program is going to make a retriever out of a dog that lacks desire, I disagree with that point. In fact Lardy discusses this... Something about coercing a dog will lead to a dull, unenthusiastic retriever.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> I think he's saying Lardy has trained more National Champions than Hillman, for what it's worth.


Nobody will disagree there. The retort I quoted could have been taken 2 different ways is all.


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## Mchasin (Apr 10, 2016)

DarrinGreene said:


> Has anyone ever looked at Hillman and thought - great if the dog naturally wants to play but not so great if they don't have a lot of drive?
> 
> In my experience some dogs want to chase/retrieve and others not so much. With Lardy/Carr or whatever you want to call those programs, the basis for fetching is established regardless of the underlying desire the dog has.
> 
> From the standpoint of picking programs it would seem to make sense to pick the one that's most likely to work for your dog, unless you're happy to retire/rehome him and get a new one with a different inclination toward his work.



Darrin, If I may inquire a bit deeper into one of your comments. As a beginner, not familiar with Hillmann or Lardy, nor what to specifically look for in your pup. How would I go about choosing? Personally I searched these forums and landed on Hillmann based on the reviews for a puppy. In all honesty I could have just as easily chosen Lardy. While I am not second guessing my choice I am wondering if I made the correct one as I don't know how to judge which would have been best for my dog as I don have experience with either or what characteristics I should have looked for in my pup. Thanks for the clarification.

Marc


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mchasin said:


> Darrin, If I may inquire a bit deeper into one of your comments. As a beginner, not familiar with Hillmann or Lardy, nor what to specifically look for in your pup. How would I go about choosing? Personally I searched these forums and landed on Hillmann based on the reviews for a puppy. In all honesty I could have just as easily chosen Lardy. While I am not second guessing my choice I am wondering if I made the correct one as I don't know how to judge which would have been best for my dog as I don have experience with either or what characteristics I should have looked for in my pup. Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Marc


Not Darin, but either one will work fine for you. Don't agonize over this, either program is light years ahead of the Wolters books I taught from 30 years ago.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

captainjack said:


> I think the Hillmann approach is especially good for the inexperienced trainer with s high drive dog. The method by which he achieves steadiness is easily implemented without sacrificing style. More experienced trainers, and those beginners who study Lardy's program and listen can get similar results with Lardy. I think Lardy's gradual steadying is better suited for the low drive dog. The reason being most trainers will not hold off on doing sit & walking on lead in favor of excitement retrieves only. Again probably an inexperienced trainer making this error.
> 
> If you are saying a force based program is going to make a retriever out of a dog that lacks desire, I disagree with that point. In fact Lardy discusses this... Something about coercing a dog will lead to a dull, unenthusiastic retriever.


I agree with all of that Glen. I've seen many (literally hundreds) of dogs that were put through a Lardy type program but really didn't have a ton of drive. They did their jobs but they weren't at all stylish about it and their endurance was usually a challenge. They would have made good duck dogs for people who didn't have the expectations competitors have though.

I don't think you'd get that with some of those dogs using Bill's methodology. 

Who knows - it's all theory. I never tried Bill's stuff on a medium drive dog (don't own one).


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Mchasin said:


> Darrin, If I may inquire a bit deeper into one of your comments. As a beginner, not familiar with Hillmann or Lardy, nor what to specifically look for in your pup. How would I go about choosing? Personally I searched these forums and landed on Hillmann based on the reviews for a puppy. In all honesty I could have just as easily chosen Lardy. While I am not second guessing my choice I am wondering if I made the correct one as I don't know how to judge which would have been best for my dog as I don have experience with either or what characteristics I should have looked for in my pup. Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Marc


I think Glen's post #25 would be helpful to you. Might want to invest the extra $100 in Hillman's puppy DVD then move into Lardy as you get some additional feel for what you're trying to do. 

Bill's material is great about explaining what you're trying to do in terms of balancing fun with work/obedience. That concept will serve you well as you go through Lardy IMO.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Some people are good at drinking and practice a lot before making L & H comments.


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

PHRGold said:


> This is most likely a repeat thread but I couldn't find the original, so here goes:
> 
> Please compare and contrast the Hillmann and Lardy DVDs in 40 words or less. &#55357;&#56832;


Comparing Hillmann's Fundamental DVDs (and Youtube training tips) to Lardy's Total Retriever Training and Total Retriever Marking DVDs: (Hillmann's Puppy DVD stands alone at the top IMO)

Lardy: Proven program derived from the daily routine of a full time successful field trial Pro with multiple dogs to train on a daily basis. More structured and somewhat regimented. Almost all field work (de-cheating, marking scenarios) requires use of bird boys, and or remote launchers. Great program for trainers that are part of a good training group.

Hillmann: Proven program by a successful field trial Pro custom training a single dog daily. Emphasis on practice, repetition and dynamic training sessions for skill building. Extensive material dedicated to the solo trainer to develop marking, teamwork, and focus. Can train solo the majority of the time, and still get a lot done. Great program for the individual who may not be able to group train as much.


Could write more, but that's as close to 40 words as I can get to the "general" differences.


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## cubdriver (Jan 1, 2006)

I copied the material from John Robinson's thread and agree heartily. I used the Hillmann approach with my latest pup and the Lardy method with my previous three. Now I am using whatever fits from both programs as my 'pup' is a bit over a year old. When training a much earlier dog I also followed 'Water Dog' and thought things were great, until I found out as time progressed that my dog wasn't really trained nearly enough. Nevertheless, Wolters did get things started in an earlier era. 
Quote from John Robinson's post :"Not Darin, but either one will work fine for you. Don't agonize over this, either program is light years ahead of the Wolters books I taught from 30 years ago. "

I also TOTALLY agree with Mountain Duck's post, as I have received significant help from him as I progressed through the Hillmann program. I didn't see his posting until after I started posting.


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## PHRGold (Sep 23, 2013)

Mountain Duck said:


> Comparing Hillmann's Fundamental DVDs (and Youtube training tips) to Lardy's Total Retriever Training and Total Retriever Marking DVDs: (Hillmann's Puppy DVD stands alone at the top IMO)
> 
> Lardy: Proven program derived from the daily routine of a full time successful field trial Pro with multiple dogs to train on a daily basis. More structured and somewhat regimented. Almost all field work (de-cheating, marking scenarios) requires use of bird boys, and or remote launchers. Great program for trainers that are part of a good training group.
> 
> ...


Excellent response.


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## PHRGold (Sep 23, 2013)

Great input here. My hat is off to the forum. Thanks again.


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## Pitchin-a-fit (Feb 27, 2018)

Great review of the two programs. Thank you for the write up! I have some of the same questions regarding the programs.


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## Pitchin-a-fit (Feb 27, 2018)

Mountain Duck said:


> Comparing Hillmann's Fundamental DVDs (and Youtube training tips) to Lardy's Total Retriever Training and Total Retriever Marking DVDs: (Hillmann's Puppy DVD stands alone at the top IMO)
> 
> Lardy: Proven program derived from the daily routine of a full time successful field trial Pro with multiple dogs to train on a daily basis. More structured and somewhat regimented. Almost all field work (de-cheating, marking scenarios) requires use of bird boys, and or remote launchers. Great program for trainers that are part of a good training group.
> 
> ...


That is very helpful!


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Wow, I had forgotten about this post and also is interesting to see how my journey with my now 28 month old dog has taught me a lot. I ended up going through the Hillmann puppy DVD and then switching to TRT2 and FF and CC my first dog without any help besides a phone call or two to ask questions. We just went 2/2 last weekend in finished and hopefully will finish up our HRCH title this next weekend if I don't screw her up somehow. 

I really wanted to follow the Hillmann program 100% but for whatever reason it wasn't working for us when it came to FF. I ended up following TRT2 and philosophy but also incorporating a lot of the techniques Hillmann uses during drills and his overall style. 

Mixing programs may not be the best approach for new trainers but I have been able to make it work for my goals.

I have a lot to learn yet but have found no matter what "program" you try and follow you eventually have to figure this stuff out for yourself. You aren't going to find all the answers in a DVD. Sometimes a method or drill you learn about elsewhere can help you teach your dog what you are trying to accomplish. I think the most important thing is that you don't skip steps and teach them in the proper sequence.Both programs follow the same basic flow chart they just teach each step in a little different way.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Bryan,
I am totally with you, my now 10 month old was "not getting" it after 10 days of Hillmann fetch. So I switched to TRT and my usual FF routine. I have FF about 6 different dogs and am comfortable with the process. (James Spencer in "Training Retrievers for Meadows and Marshes"), then re-collar conditioned on a higher level than we used for conditioning and took off from there. About done with double T and its too cold for swim-by. Probably go on to pattern blinds next. 
But there are still several drills and aspects of Hillmann's work that I like to add. I don't consider it "mixing" programs, I am using TRT but add a little "spice" as long as it fits in our overall program.
I did the same with this dog's mother and she went 8 for 8 in HRCH finished. I suspect you will title this weekend. Good luck.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Interesting thread. I just sold a young dog to one of Lardy's clients. This dog started out with Hillmann's methods as have the last few that I have trained as young dogs. I also did FF Bill's method, which I love by the way.
After FF I went to Lardy's method. Same as I have done with the last few.
This particular dog did not impress me much until he was about 15 months old. Then the light bulb went on. He just aged out last weekend with 32 derby points in 10 starts. Could have and should have been even more points per start. I ran him to a first and second. Lardy ran him to a fourth, where he didn't see a bird. The new owner ran him to four wins.
Mike said he is the best young dog to ever enter his camp, which Rush was an 18 month old dog. Never been close to a pro truck. He fit in instantly.
As far as mixing programs is concerned I am a firm believer in training the dog and not ascribing to a particular method or methods. Follow the flowchart and rely on past experience in learning how to shape a dog's behavior. Learn from others. Not only the good but the not so good.


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## parvipes (Mar 29, 2018)

some great comments here.. thanks to all who posted.


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## Ajbjunior (May 13, 2018)

For those using Hillman for pup training are you using the Art and Science of Raising a puppy or Training a Retriever Puppy? I have Lardy set and wanted to look at Hillmans for the early stage.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Ajbjunior said:


> For those using Hillman for pup training are you using the Art and Science of Raising a puppy or Training a Retriever Puppy? I have Lardy set and wanted to look at Hillmans for the early stage.


Either would work. Methodology is the same. Biggest difference is old version only has 1 pup and the newer one has 3


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## Ajbjunior (May 13, 2018)

bamajeff said:


> Either would work. Methodology is the same. Biggest difference is old version only has 1 pup and the newer one has 3


Thank you for the help


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ajbjunior said:


> For those using Hillman for pup training are you using the Art and Science of Raising a puppy or Training a Retriever Puppy? I have Lardy set and wanted to look at Hillmans for the early stage.


I haven’t seen Art & Science, but there were two versions of Training a Retriever Puppy. Art and Science, I thought was different.

I use Training a Retriever Puppy 1st edition. It includes a bit of force fetch early on which I do incorporate. I understand this was removed from the 2nd edition.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

bamajeff said:


> Ajbjunior said:
> 
> 
> > For those using Hillman for pup training are you using the Art and Science of Raising a puppy or Training a Retriever Puppy? I have Lardy set and wanted to look at Hillmans for the early stage.
> ...


I believe the "Art and Science of Raising a puppy" is not the first version of "Training A Retriever puppy" but an entirely different DVD just about raising a puppy around the house and what not (haven't seen it) 

There are 2 versions of the "training a retriever puppy" DVD. The fist uses one dog "Nick" like you stated while the 2nd version has at least three puppies and also shows clips from the old version.

If you'll go to his website I think it gives a description of them.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

Lardy only deals with the cream of the crop. Give those dogs to lots of other trainers and they would shine too. This is not to take away from Mike Lardy, but there are lots of other trainers out there as good as Mike. People get hung up on trainers that have titled many dogs. I have seen trainers who have titled many dogs and I wouldn't send my pet owl to them for training. Lots of those trainers only are successful with the dogs that can take a licking and keep on ticking and they can't or won't train soft sensitive dogs. In my opinion, if you can't train retrievers with all kinds of temperaments, then you aren't much of a trainer.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't think anyone disputes there are other good trainers beside Lardy. But they haven't produced a complete training program. And that was what this thread was about. Comparing and moving from Hillman to Lardy.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I don't think anyone disputes there are other good trainers beside Lardy. But they haven't produced a complete training program. And that was what this thread was about. Comparing and moving from Hillman to Lardy.


Lardy, along with Andy Attar, is also acclaimed for his ability to train sensitive dogs that, early on, many others could not train to a high level.


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## Ajbjunior (May 13, 2018)

Bryan Parks said:


> I believe the "Art and Science of Raising a puppy" is not the first version of "Training A Retriever puppy" but an entirely different DVD just about raising a puppy around the house and what not (haven't seen it)
> 
> There are 2 versions of the "training a retriever puppy" DVD. The fist uses one dog "Nick" like you stated while the 2nd version has at least three puppies and also shows clips from the old version.
> 
> If you'll go to his website I think it gives a description of them.


yep I caught that after studying it a little more. Thanks.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

captainjack said:


> Lardy, along with Andy Attar, is also acclaimed for his ability to train sensitive dogs that, early on, many others could not train to a high level.


That's correct. Wasn't Mike involved in some way with Tri-Tronics in developing the adjustable stimulus e-collars? I thought I heard that somewhere. I heard that it was due to the more sensitive dogs he was getting on his truck.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

Just had a similar conversation with a top ten pro last week. The part that stuck with me was when the pro was called out to evaluate a dog Bill had (Bill was very high on the dog and how well he could run straight and nail marks) was quickly surprised how lacking the dog was in thinking for itself and getting out of trouble when faced with factors that prevented running a straight line. I guess it boils down to the age old conundrum of having a great derby dog versus all age dog and how they are not necessarily the same.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Jerry S. said:


> Interesting thread. I just sold a young dog to one of Lardy's clients. This dog started out with Hillmann's methods as have the last few that I have trained as young dogs. I also did FF Bill's method, which I love by the way.
> After FF I went to Lardy's method. Same as I have done with the last few.
> This particular dog did not impress me much until he was about 15 months old. Then the light bulb went on. He just aged out last weekend with 32 derby points in 10 starts. Could have and should have been even more points per start. I ran him to a first and second. Lardy ran him to a fourth, where he didn't see a bird. The new owner ran him to four wins.
> Mike said he is the best young dog to ever enter his camp, which Rush was an 18 month old dog. Never been close to a pro truck. He fit in instantly.
> As far as mixing programs is concerned I am a firm believer in training the dog and not ascribing to a particular method or methods. Follow the flowchart and rely on past experience in learning how to shape a dog's behavior. Learn from others. Not only the good but the not so good.


Hello,
Newbie here. Can you explain a little bit on why you love Hillman's force fetch method? Thank you.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

J. Marti said:


> Hello,
> Newbie here. Can you explain a little bit on why you love Hillman's force fetch method? Thank you.


hi J. Marti. I sent a PM a while ago. 

This article was the “final straw” that compelled me to try Bill’s fetch approach with my current retriever. I am a fan and have no regrets. 

http://www.billhillmann.net/reviewFetchComm.htm

I’ll gladly share more thoughts.


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## bwricks2000 (May 15, 2018)

I see Lardy's name on this forum a lot. One of the books that I was given several years ago was Tom Dokken's. Where does his program sit compared to Lardy?


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## ousuxndallas (Jul 6, 2016)

Mountain Duck said:


> Comparing Hillmann's Fundamental DVDs (and Youtube training tips) to Lardy's Total Retriever Training and Total Retriever Marking DVDs: (Hillmann's Puppy DVD stands alone at the top IMO)
> 
> Lardy: Proven program derived from the daily routine of a full time successful field trial Pro with multiple dogs to train on a daily basis. More structured and somewhat regimented. Almost all field work (de-cheating, marking scenarios) *requires use of bird boys, and or remote launchers. Great program for trainers that are part of a good training group.*
> 
> ...


Bolded for emphasis. 95% of amateur trainers have to do training alone. To me, that's why I'm using Hillman's technique on my new pup.


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