# Short bird marking - Secondary vs Ideal selection



## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

This discussion was buried in another thread, I thought it deserved a thread of it's own.



Tulsa Slim said:


> It has been my experience that a dog that has gone long twice with success has a much harder time with a short check down retired.


What really makes it more difficult? 

Is it expectations, (the dog has found the other birds long and therefore expects the bird to be long)?

Or is it because the dog has forgotten the shorter bird?

*More importantly, *What is the best way to improve a dog's success at a trial? Secondary selection or Ideal selection?

With secondary selection, the handler is having the dog pick up shortest of the remaining birds second. A close corollary is that in training you don't have a dog run past a short station that it has not yet retrieved. Creating an expectation for the dog to pick up the shortest bird before the longer bird even if the longer bird is more attractive. 

In contrast, with Ideal selection as I understand it, one is training the dog to be comfortable running by a short bird and picking up the attractive long bird and then coming back and picking up the short bird:


Captain Mike D said:


> After reviewing the notes I took and rereading Chapter 6 of the Art and Science of Handling Retrievers I see that selection IS the reason Dave trains for the dog to pick up the short retired last.
> 
> Quote by Dave-"Over time Rex trained myself and other trainers to teach the dog to pick up the short bird last in training quite often. In doing so, you start to teach the dog to be good at that short retired gun while getting it last. Then, because the dog has gotten so good at getting the short bird last, he may voluntarily want to select that short bird out on his own."
> He then mentions Hiwood Apache Scout saying that he had a very difficult time in checking down to pick up short birds. After consistent work where the dog was only allowed to pick the short one up last he became good at it.
> ...


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't know what makes it so hard. Perhaps because we start pup on running memory birds, pick up short to long, and don't do enough short memory birds? And, we correct for breaking down early? Then, with triple, quad,hey, go ahead, check down, knucklehead? I do think dogs today are better at short retired than in the past. Most likely, more balanced training.

We always train secondary selection, it's the way we were taught. But, do think should be open to new ideas. Ideal selection sounds interesting.

I think a lot depends on the dog. Some have no problem going right back where they were, can run by a tight short retired for an out gun, then come right back in and dig it out. Some can't, maybe they worry more, they will need to get the short bird first.

In a trial, whatever works, training might be out the window.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i think one key is for the dog to have a very high success rate on them in training. too often, people expect the dog to transfer it's ability on long retireds to short birds.dogs just don't generalize skills that way. dogs needs balanced training on short, middle and long retireds, and i think it's better taught at a fairly early age. a lot of trainers are teaching these skills much earlier these days.

one teaching aid is to use an ABCD drill setup with 4 blinds/camo umbrellas. all 4 marks thrown as singles. the thrower immediately retires while the other 3 are visible. as the dog improves, you can hand throw off to the side while the thrower retires. 

i think it also helps the dog understand the concept to exagerate the short or long bird. that is, to make the short bird really short in relation to the other mark(s), or vice versa

good topic!-Paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Now THIS is what RTF exists to discuss! ;-)

Super content...awesome topic!

Chris


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Obviously, based upon my comments in the previous thread, I train with secondary selection, shortest to longest approach. I also subscribe to the "keep it simple, stupid" theory.

Even in a trial, esp with a tight set-up, I don't think I would purposely send a dog for a long mark past a tight short mark (unless the dog clearly indicated he wanted the long mark in some way) before the short mark has been retrieved. The risk is too high that the dog would instead p/u the short mark anyway & I would be left with the prospect of attempting to convince the dog to take the same line again to the long mark (loud voice, hand down etc). 

That's why I am convinced there is something else to Rorem's logic for teaching this 2 longs before a short retired as a concept that has not yet come into the conversation.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

It's always best to let the dog have the 2 birds that they want... Usually in this situation the 2 long birds... That way you can talk them into the short retired third bird... There's nothing left to tempt them away from that "key" bird.

Teach it as a secondary selection bird as much as you can training, but at a trial or test go with what the dog wants and have a game plan accordingly...

Angie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have had several conversations with David about this subject and I still don't pretend to entirely grasp his rationale. However, I think - in part - his rationale is this

1) If you want to win, you must be flexible
2) There are times in trials - and particularly in Nationals, where you will see quads, with two flyers and hen pheasant retired birds - where you must be able to go long twice, then come back for the short retired birds (or go long, short, long, short depending on the layout of the birds)
3) You want a dog that is comfortable picking up the birds in whatever sequence is appropriate
4) If a dog is only able to pick up the birds ... short, long, longer ... it won't be very successful if it is necessary to dig up the long bird before the short bird
5) So, you want to train your dog to be flexible in the manner in which it picks up the birds


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I have had several conversations with David about this subject and I still don't pretend to entirely grasp his rationale. However, I think - in part - his rationale is this
> 
> 1) If you want to win, you must be flexible
> 2) There are times in trials - and particularly in Nationals, where you will see quads, with two flyers and hen pheasant retired birds - where you must be able to go long twice, then come back for the short retired birds (or go long, short, long, short depending on the layout of the birds)
> ...


A dogs natural tendency at a trial is to select the birds that are most appealing to them. That is long and long... the short retired is a money or "schooled" bird. Let the dog get those long birds that they want and then "talk" them into those short retired birds.

In training one will train conventionally to emphasize the short retired... To get them to relax and be comfortable with the short after long concept.. 

But a trial,,, the pick up is anything but....

Angie


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Angie B said:


> *It's always best to let the dog have the 2 birds that they want... *Usually in this situation the 2 long birds... That way you can talk them into the short retired third bird... There's nothing left to tempt them away from that "key" bird.
> 
> Teach it as a secondary selection bird as much as you can training, but at a trial or test go with what the dog wants and have a game plan accordingly...
> 
> Angie


Always ??????????

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Angie B said:


> It's always best to let the dog have the 2 birds that they want... Usually in this situation the 2 long birds... That way you can talk them into the short retired third bird... There's nothing left to tempt them away from that "key" bird.
> 
> Teach it as a secondary selection bird as much as you can training, but at a trial or test go with what the dog wants and have a game plan accordingly...
> 
> Angie


Always ?????

john


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Not that I agree or disagree with this method,but I definetly believe in having a dog with the upmost in balance!! I can't foreget what either Joe Harp or Hugh Author said one time "Rin Tin Tin can't go Long twice, then go short." Evidentally David has broken that train of thought, I have never tried that on purpose, but it has happened to me before!! I think I will discuss this topic at large with Mike and see what he thinks, I'm pretty sure what the answer will be, IT DEPENDS!!! Having a dog balanced with enough bottom to get that long retired punch bird and thinking enough to pickup the short retired right in front of a middle distance flyer is what we are all hoping to have, no matter what order your training dictates you to the order that you pickup the birds. This is the best topic RTF has had in a while.I hope to get to sit in on a Rorem seminar sometime in the near future to hear more about this topic.
CB


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Always ??????????
> 
> john


Yes,,, you wanna fight a dog at a trial on what bird they want??

Go ahead...

What does your mentor say John? I'm sure you train with good field trial pro's all the time? What is their take on it?

Angie


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

We reviewed the Carr -Rorem video tonight on the subject...it was interesting.Though the video is fairly old....it seems he was refining the theories he uses today.Pertty cool.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Chad Baker said:


> Not that I agree or disagree with this method,but I definetly believe in having a dog with the upmost in balance!! I can't foreget what either Joe Harp or Hugh Author said one time "Rin Tin Tin can't go Long twice, then go short." Evidentally David has broken that train of thought, I have never tried that on purpose, but it has happened to me before!! I think I will discuss this topic at large with Mike and see what he thinks, I'm pretty sure what the answer will be, IT DEPENDS!!! Having a dog balanced with enough bottom to get that long retired punch bird and thinking enough to pickup the short retired right in front of a middle distance flyer is what we are all hoping to have, no matter what order your training dictates you to the order that you pickup the birds. This is the best topic RTF has had in a while.I hope to get to sit in on a Rorem seminar sometime in the near future to hear more about this topic.
> CB


Maybe "Rin Tin Tin" can't go short after going long twice? But our AA dogs can. Think about it. Where else can they go but short once the long appealling birds have been picked up, in a situation that's been described?

Train for flexability and depth... A dog needs a very, very rich vocabulary to be successful week in and week out at field trials.

But be prepared for how a dog will want to pick up their marks at a trial. It can be very contrary to your training given the situation.

Angie


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I have had several conversations with David about this subject and I still don't pretend to entirely grasp his rationale. However, I think - in part - his rationale is this
> 
> 1) If you want to win, you must be flexible
> 2) There are times in trials - and particularly in Nationals, where you will see quads, with two flyers and hen pheasant retired birds - where you must be able to go long twice, then come back for the short retired birds (or go long, short, long, short depending on the layout of the birds)
> ...


A big reason for secondary selection, is to pick up the tougher short bird while it is fresher in the dog's memory. Is that the trade off? The fresher memory vs the absence of the suction from the long attractive bird if it is out of the picture. 

Does the it matter the type of dog? For example, a good short bird marker vs poor short bird marker. Or, a dog that is flier crazy and will go to the long flier anyway vs the team player that will pick them up in whatever order the handler wants. 

Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Yes,,, you wanna fight a dog at a trial on what bird they want??
> 
> Go ahead...
> Angie


Go to any weekend trial and watch Amateurs (sometimes a goofball pro) “TRY” to fight a dog off a bird that the dog wants…thereby sending the entire series into the s#!t house.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm still sitting back to take it in. I am sincerely interested in the thoughts that the successful, or about to be so, RTF folks have.

John Fallon, please, sincerely, if you have something to contribute, please lay it out in some detail. I believe you likely have some knowledge to share and I personally am not sharp enough to dig it out of the brief rhetoricals....

Thanks! Chris


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

2 things come to mind in the selection decision: habits and picture.
Habits dealing with order that the dog is most accustomed/training. As creatures of habit many dogs are most confident picking up in reverse order.
Balance this against the picture presented to the dog. Retired or not how well did these throws standout as they were going down? What will dog be looking at when/if he overruns the short bird?

IMHO there is no formula. It's a game time decision.

Tim


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> A big reason for secondary selection, is to pick up the tougher short bird while it is fresher in the dog's memory. Is that the trade off? The fresher memory vs the absence of the suction from the long attractive bird if it is out of the picture.
> 
> Does the it matter the type of dog? For example, a good short bird marker vs poor short bird marker. Or, a dog that is flier crazy and will go to the long flier anyway vs the team player that will pick them up in whatever order the handler wants.
> 
> Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?


The dog,,, The short bird is there in a well schooled, well trained AA dog... They do remember it from all the short retired bird training they've had.

At a trial,,, the symantics change... A dog will always want what they want first. That is to go long... It's the way they're programed. Long is easy...

Let that dog get what they want first... Then you have all the time you want or need to "talk them into" that short retired bird... The suction is gone from the birds they want... There is no where else to go,,, so they are more receptive to the idea of going to that short retired bird.

Thank you Dave Rorem,,,

Makes total sense to me. How about you John???

Angie


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first. 

It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I don't agree that dogs are programmed to go long ... or better put, I think whether a dog prefers to go long or short depends

For example, if there is a short gun up - flyer or dead - you will find that some dogs will not want to look past that station or drive past that bird.

In the same vein, sometimes the dogs prefer the long bird because it is more attractive. For example, the short bird is a dinky throw, the long bird is a big throw across the horizon with feathers up in the sun. Depending on the conditions, a long dead bird can be more attractive to the dogs than the shorter flier.

It is one thing to overrun the short retired bird on the way to a long unretired bird.

It is another thing to overrun the short retired bird on the way to the long retired bird.

There are so many different variables that I don't know how valid any generalizations are here.

I never met the man, but I have heard plenty of Rex Carr's students tell me that even though he worked on secondary selection in training that when he was at a trial, if there was an attractive bird that the dogs wanted that was long, he would tell his students to let the dogs take that bird.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.
> 
> It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.


I think this is mostly true. Having had the priviledge to run Dave's dogs at his seminars, they have been trained to run by that short gun. It was interesting to watch his dogs, compared to running my own dogs on the same test. The responses were amazing depending on whether the dog was trained to secondary select, or ideally select.

However, I have a dog or two that LOVES to run long, and if I attempt to secondary select, I can pretty much guarantee that I will be flipped the dew claw, and wind up with a mess. However, leaving the dog to run long, the dog has no issue with remembering teh short retired, or being talked into it.... listening to Dave talk, I now look at the birds int eh field as: THe flyer is filet mignon, the next bird is pot roast, and then there is hamburger... 

The last trial ran, my female didn't bother to even watch the short go bird (it was dead)- didn't even turn her head, but was quivering with excitement over the two long birds... it's about knowing your dog, and knowing how they will respond at a trial.... something I'm still trying to figure out on a given weekend.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I just attended the Rorem Seminar in Florida as observer. I hope everyone trains on secondary selection. I'm training on ideal selection. 

A quote "don't be prisoners of bad habits." 

I would like to take that one step further, Don't be prisoners of habit. 

Paul Young - you would love the handling Seminar. It is all about reading dogs.
for example I've changed my outlook on the old saying my dog lied to me.

Rorem - Dogs don't lie you read your dog wrong. 
Paul I owe you so I will discuss the seminar when I see you. Best seminar I have ever attended and plan to attend again next year.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Doug Main said:


> Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?


Apparently, at least in the case of the winner of this years National Open, the dog.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Is "ideal selection" really just no selection at all? Just let the dog pick up whatever bird it wants in whatever order it wants?


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Absolutely Not. It is used in training.

Attend the seminar.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I do train secondary selection almost 98% of the time. A short retired thrown second will be picked up second in training since I train secondary selection. I think it also makes a dog more flexible and with time more relaxed with difficult concepts. I could pick it up last in training since in the majority of cases it could be easier, but that's not my goal in training.

At a trial I will let the dog get it last. Especially if the other dogs aren't getting it second...

Angie


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'm still sitting back to take it in. I am sincerely interested in the thoughts that the successful, or about to be so, RTF folks have.
> 
> John Fallon, please, sincerely, if you have something to contribute, please lay it out in some detail. I believe you likely have some knowledge to share and I personally am not sharp enough to dig it out of the brief rhetoricals....
> 
> Thanks! Chris


Chris,

I am glad you asked .

With my question to Angie about her "Always" advice.........
I was questioning her about advising people such as yourself on breaking the most basic tenants of dog training. The subject at hand is a prime example of this.

As to Long Long Short. I do not often train on it but do often train on the short retired component in the more conventional manner, *but* I would atempt to go long twice before short at a trial, if, in my estimation, at that *point in time,* with *that* dog, in the *conditions at hand* .................. it would afford us the best chance for success.
I feel that in an ongoing attempt to maintain balance,this is the best course for *my* dogs and... for most others for that matter 

You see Chris , contrary to Angie's belief as demonstrated by her answer to my question, there are no absolutes in dog training. 
I am sure that if you ask Dave (The only one that seems to be consistently training on this type of selection) ,Or Mike, or Danny, or Al, Or ED, or Allen, or...... rather than Angie they will tell you the same thing.


John


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Doug Main said:


> Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.
> 
> It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.


This would be my concern as well.

Also, while we debate the efficacy of training two long before a short retired, it seems at least a part of the answer would depend upon the entire volume of the training process used. In other words if this particular "concept" is contrary to the consistency of logic used in your training process, it's merits under Rorem's system might be of little benefit, even detrimental under a different system.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Chris,
> 
> I am glad you asked .
> 
> ...


I love it John! Sincerely, THANK YOU!

I also agree about the "always" and "never" absolutes. Dennis Voigt used a quite recently that I'll have to try and find. It started off "Never say "always""... But then it referenced to avoid saying "never" as well. 

Have a great weekend.

Chris


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Long bird behind momma-poppa, out or not, go bird off to side. Momma retires into poppa. Pick up go bird, Then poppa. Now what? 

Most, and I would never say always, but most times you are going to work pretty hard to pull out that momma bird, and try not to let them get the long gun.

Because it is so tight, many dogs will lose memory, and think they have picked up that bird, if they go long first. So, in that case, you might really want to get the bird you want, not the one the dog wants.

Do think it can be which dog, some are ok going back where they have just been, others not. But, maybe that is function of not so great training, although we have had both types, trained essentially the same.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

What if a dog was trained with "primary" selection? Would you feel they would have a easier time digging out that short retired?

Angie


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Well, most of us don't primary select, but yes, that would be a cool way to beat the test if you thought you could get away with it. Poppa, momma, then long birds.

But, what if, go bird flyer.......... tough


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Well, most of us don't primary select, but yes, that would be a cool way to beat the test if you thought you could get away with it. Poppa, momma, then long birds.
> 
> But, what if, go bird flyer.......... tough


No kidding,,,, but that is how many train north of the border. Or at least that was the way they trained. It's been a while since I've talked or train with them.

Angie


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

North of the border = no flyers. Huge difference.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

From North of the Border:
SO much snow to shovel that I missed the start of this discussion-but here’s my thoughts.

History of Selection (in brief) 
In the good old days “selection” meant ‘sending your dog on the first retrieve for a bird other than the last bird down’ (go-bird). The test that really got this idea going was the indent in which you had a short retired in the middle and the flyer last bird down longer on the outside. This has been called the McAssey Test (John McAssey). This kind of selection became known as Primary selection and Rex Carr was one of its early proponents.
Primary selection has always been controversial because of the difficulty of pulling off flyers. Dogs reliable in training where not always reliable at trials (hmm –no kidding!) Often a lot of pressure was used. Interestingly in Canada, where all birds were dead, Primary selection was much easier and more often seen.

Secondary selection occurred when the handler selected which bird was picked up second. Usually, this meant the flyer was picked up first as a go-bird and then the next shortest bird was picked up. Again this was often that short retired bird with a longer one to go and after a longer one. Because this pattern was the most common, it became convention to call Secondary Selection, “picking up the short bird second”. In reality, it is secondary selection occurs when the handler selects which bird is retrieved second. One can even talk about tertiary selection when the handler selects which bird is third (as might be needed in a quad).

Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

Why do dogs over-run short?
1.	We train so much on this in formative years-Short-long ad nauseum in Derby-teach that punch bird, get that long retired-force back-drive long!
2.	Experienced dogs love flyers-ever notice short birds second as flyers are relatively easy? (Hint-great way to train short retireds). Dogs know when short birds are dead-they may be less certain that long bird was dead. Rex said to me: He wanted that long bird-he was hoping it was a flyer!” Note: Canadian dogs often primary select to short birds on their own when never exposed to flyers.
3.	Visible birds are easier to remember than retired- a long visible is more attracting than a short retired-duh!
4.	Dogs that have run long naturally are comfortable running long again because they have just been successful doing that.

What do I do?

For Chris: I say “Never says Always but Never say Never!”

I train over and over on being able to take a short bird after a longer bird. In day to day training this is usually second for clarity and simplicity although it could be done second, third or 4th. Is this secondary-yes! I am always selecting which bird is second in training. Is it tertiary –sometimes it is also. Is it ideal- yes because I’m deciding which bird next. I occasionally train on Primary for control reasons. Enough that I could do it in some trial situations. 

In a trial, I “usually” go with my dog’s strengths- what is he best at? Because of my training, I often feel comfortable digging out that short retired second but not “always”. PS. I have both won and lost a National in the 10th by going contrary to my training. Four times the decision has been which bird to take 3rd when there was a middle and a long retired left.
There is always both Science and Art to handling! Knowing when to go with the dog and when to not go with the dog is the Art!

Cheers


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I train secondary but I have had a dog that liked to take the short retired out first in a trial setting. All I had to do is say easy and his head locked on the short bird or he just did it himself, and over a flyer. Unfortunately I had this dog early in my career and he was handicapped by my lack of handling skills on blinds.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> *Always* ?????
> 
> john


How the late Rex Carr hated that word! It ranked right up there with "never".

Evan


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I seldom see quads. I train hard on secondary, selection digging the short retired out from in front of a long memory bird. 

When you say, "Easy," for the older dogs they understand it and lock in on the short retired just like Nancy said. 

In the excitement of a trial I've had them come back from the go bird and look out at the long bird. I've said easy and had them lock in on the short bird. We haven't always pulled it out but I've felt the dogs knew which one I wanted next when I've sent them. We've pulled it out in trials often enough to keep training on secondary selection. 

I thought in the Rorem/Carr tapes Rorem was suggesting what he's now calling ideal selection for just some high roller type dogs. Now, he's saying use it for all dogs? Does he have a step by step method of training for it?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).
> 
> Cheers


Dennis,

I didn't get a clear perspective on Dave's "Ideal selection" principle, either, but rather just came away with the idea that he pretty much sent for the go bird (whether long or short) and let the dog indicate which he got next. Did you get that sort of impression?

Evan


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## K.Bullock (May 15, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> From North of the Border:
> SO much snow to shovel that I missed the start of this discussion-but here’s my thoughts.
> 
> History of Selection (in brief)
> ...


Awesome post. Thank you for being willing to share that. I am sure it is no accident that successful handlers by and large secondary select in training and at trials.

It is interesting to me that you pointed out that you train on primary selection for control. I am assuming this is something you teach dogs at an advanced level that already have a good grasp on secondary selection. 

Do you think that this control at the trial is is key in pulling out difficult birds? 

My introduction to field trial training came from Jack Martin who instructed me that while he trained using primary selection everyone was going to secondary selection. This was the mid-nineties. His admonishment to me was that if I chose to teach Primary selection I would have to train for it and use it religiously for it to work consistently. I assume this is because of the control it takes to be able to pick the shortest bird first in any situation. As this was when Lardy was winning every trial and national hands down using secondary selection this is the method I have chosen,and have since learned much more from other individuals. 

While I think the control is less with secondary selection as the dog gets to run freely to the last bird down and then relinquishes control to the handler to select the next bird down. It is a kind of working relationship nonetheless. 

This would lead me to question the effectiveness of ideal selection as I have seen it described. do you think that would break down the relationship and let the dogs natural desire to smoke over the short birds kick back in? As well as maybe causing other control issues in other areas?


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Evan said:


> Dennis,
> 
> I didn't get a clear perspective on Dave's "Ideal selection" principle, either, but rather just came away with the idea that he pretty much sent for the go bird (whether long or short) and let the dog indicate which he got next. Did you get that sort of impression?
> 
> Evan


First let me state that I haven't trained with Dave for quite awhile and we have not discussed this topic in recent years. Yes, my impression was that he read his dog and he let him indicate his preferred bird. After the go bird, this is often the long bird when visible and not the short brd when retired. He would go with that and then work on getting the dog to focus on the short bird (now it is last!). He did this in training also. It was some time after I trained with him that he used the term "Ideal" selection which is being able to pick up any bird comfortably. 

However, I don't think this means that he practices picking up birds in all different orders to "make" the dog comfortable. I get the 'impression' that it means he can let the dog pick up certain birds including long and then still be comfortable picking up the short at the end. Because the dog had done lots of short birds last, he become "comfortable" going short! His Apache Scout story which goes back to when he was doing this in the mid-90's and suggests that a dog who has done lots of short after long becomes comfortable doing short anytime. 

Without Dave here, I do not want to put words in his mouth. Perhaps a client has had this exact conversation with him. But these are my impressions and my interpretations-things may have changed.


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## Connie Swanson (May 31, 2005)

"Balance" must certainly be the order of the day: advanced dogs can see just about anything these days, & when you factor in how terrain & wind can affect long-short set-ups (we haven't talked about those factors yet), I think you have to be prepared to adjust your usual routine of pick-up order, at least sometimes; it can certainly happen that wind direction forces you to pick up birds in unusual order, & if you let the dog choose you will be going home!

A balanced dog that's at least been exposed in training to different possibilities, will be cooperative on line & willing to take direction-- you shouldn't have to "fight" them-- that's not to say that my plan isn't often to allow the dog to choose, but I only do that if the choices both make sense.

We ran a trial here North of the Border this summer where the set-up was a big quad, mostly wide-open (practically a double-double), w/ the go-bird long to the left of a shorter indent, the other 2 birds were way to the right, none retired (& of course no flyer).

The only dogs that did that test primary selected. Handlers only figured that out well into the test, & no one really figured out why that short visible gun disappeared for the dogs, if it was not picked up 1st-- & they didn't just overrun it, they went everywhere on God's green earth but to that bird; dogs that could not primary select were toast.

So it seems to me that the dog, (and especially the handler?) needs to be balanced & comfortable enough to go where the best possibility of success lies, even if that is sometimes contrary to regular training---however it is that you train!

Connie


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

One might say that an AA dog these days needs to feel comfortable to go anywhere, any time. They have to be ok, dry or wet, short or long.

Can see the same evolution in blinds. For a while chanel blinds were all the rage, don't get out. People started to train them, dogs got good. Next, how about we put the dog on the point, rather than by it. Failure with dogs that wouldn't get out, more training, more success. Once out, more training to get back in. Angle entries, dogs need to feel comfortable not getting in too early. Today, many water blinds may have a whole bunch of land in them.

We as mentors need to be great at communicating where TO go, rather than , where not to go.

This stuff just never gets old, how much farther can we take it??


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> ...However, I don't think this means that he practices picking up birds in all different orders to "make" the dog comfortable. I get the 'impression' that it means he can let the dog pick up certain birds including long and then still be comfortable picking up the short at the end. Because the dog had done lots of short birds last, he become "comfortable" going short! His Apache Scout story which goes back to when he was doing this in the mid-90's and suggests that a dog who has done lots of short after long becomes comfortable doing short anytime. ....



That I understand. But I'm still having trouble understanding why someone (Rorem) would advocate training two longs before a short retired as a "concept". My dogs have all shown a natural tendancy to want to p/u a long standout gun even after a long flyer go-bird (so's there's two long) before wanting the short-retired when first advancing in AA work but, it would seem to me, the trained, controlled concept would be to get the short retired right after the long go-bird - esp in training situations such that the dogs would become comfortable getting the short retired as the 2nd bird - even anticipating it.

If ideal selection at a trial is actually reading the dog and allowing the dog to get the bird he seem most comfortable getting then we are really talking about something else altogether. That is much more a handling decision and not really a training concept. And it is a pragmatic decision most of us make on game day as opposed to a controlled training decision where a conscience effort is made to impose a selected order through repetitive training. JMO.......


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Well, I don't know, trained, controlled, concept or not, love a really good short retired that the wind doesn't give away.

Then, IMHO,we can see who can really mark.


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## drbobsd (Feb 21, 2004)

I'm wondering in a trial situation if you decide to pick up two long birds and get short retired last would it not be best to practice it in training? Thinking I'm understanding the thread?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

You can train for short retireds while working on "ideal selection." The two are not mutually exclusive.

For example, imagine that you shoot a delayed triple. The initial double is short retired bird and then long flyer. Dog picks up long flier. Then you shoot another long bird with gun up. Dog picks up the long bird. Now you pick up short retired bird.

Dog will go long, long, short.

You work on short retired.
But are also working on picking up short bird last ... or ideal selection.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> You can train for short retireds while working on "ideal selection." The two are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> For example, imagine that you shoot a delayed triple. The initial double is short retired bird and then long flyer. Dog picks up long flier. Then you shoot another long bird with gun up. Dog picks up the long bird. Now you pick up short retired bird.
> 
> ...


-

That would be a good introduction but.....for a dog that is training at this level. I don't think that would be as beneficial from an "all around training" perspective as having one of the Long birds being a *memory* bird. For that you would need a fourth bird shot last, somewhere middle distance in the mix. 

Of course, if you would like to also work on Primary Selection in the same set up , shoot the second long bird last in the second double and Primary Select the fourth bird 

Dbl. Dbl. regards
john


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> You can train for short retireds while working on "ideal selection." The two are not mutually exclusive.


No, but "ideal selection" and "secondary selection" are!

At the Lardy workshop I attended, we learned the whole point of secondary selection was an attempt to be more successful with the short retired birds. One of the factors that Lardy puts into the design of training setups is not having the dog run past a gun stations that it has not retrieved. This so the dog does NOT get comfortable running past a gun station that it has not yet retrieved. We even go so far in training as to not let the dog pick up that long attractive bird that it wants, until it has successfully retrieved the short bird.

I asked if this is done for a certain type of dog, or not. Because for the dog that is generally good at short retired, check down birds, I can see that "ideal selection" could be a good thing. However, for the dogs that really struggle with the short check down birds and short retired guns. I am just not sure.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

drbobsd said:


> I'm wondering in a trial situation if you decide to pick up two long birds and get short retired last would it not be best to practice it in training? Thinking I'm understanding the thread?


I don't know what skill is required in picking up the short bird last that would require practice.

However, I think the strengths and weaknesses of the individual dog would make a big difference in whether I would even want to attempt it.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> No, but "ideal selection" and "secondary selection" are!
> 
> At the Lardy workshop I attended, we learned the whole point of secondary selection was an attempt to be more successful with the short retired birds. One of the factors that Lardy puts into the design of training setups is not having the dog run past a gun stations that it has not retrieved. This so the dog does NOT get comfortable running past a gun station that it has not yet retrieved. We even go so far in training as to not let the dog pick up that long attractive bird that it wants, until it has successfully retrieved the short bird.
> 
> I asked if this is done for a certain type of dog, or not. Because for the dog that is generally good at short retired, check down birds, I can see that "ideal selection" could be a good thing. However, for the dogs that really struggle with the short check down birds and short retired guns. I am just not sure.


I understand what your saying. I don't think any of us using a conventional, modern, training methodology would consider doing anything other then secondary selection on a indented triple when training or teaching.

I've only been to 2 of Dave's seminars and the "ideal selection" theory and it's use was addressed in only the second seminar. Though I don't recall it being called such. The Brew and Ha that went up when he suggested it.  No one could get over it or quite get their minds around it until they saw it demonstrated. Not only was I lucky enough to see it demonstrated but I've seen it used time and time again at trials. I use it myself in tests.. It works much better to me then the conventional way of getting a dog to dig out the most difficult bird second. 

Your not going to know until you try.. You're not going to ruin your dogs training or set back what you gained by doing so... 

I found it much easier for dogs to process "short retired" birds along with difficult marks when that particular mark is left for last...

Doug, In your explaination you site that the dog needs to pick up the _short retired_ before going long. The dog should not be allowed to run past a bird it hasn't picked up. But,,,, on a long _go to_ bird,,, that's exactly what the dog is doing with _secondary selection_ on a tight indented triple.... So to stick with your theory you would need to use_ primary selection_... At a test that could be sticky...

Angie


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> No, but "ideal selection" and "secondary selection" are!


Doug

I am not sure what you mean here.

As Dennis mentioned earlier, secondary selection simply means that the dog picks up the last bird down, then the handler selects the next bird to pick up. Nothing more or less.

Ideal selection simply means that you may choose to pick the short - OR - the long bird next. And that you are not required to pick up the short bird next.

Consequently, ideal selection and secondary selection are not mutually exclusive. 

Ted


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Doug, In your explaination you site that the dog needs to pick up the _short retired_ before going long. The dog should not be allowed to run past a bird it hasn't picked up. But,,,, on a long _go to_ bird,,, that's exactly what the dog is doing with _secondary selection_ on a tight indented triple.... So to stick with your theory you would need to use_ primary selection_... At a test that could be sticky...
> 
> Angie


Trial tests do not make good training tests. 

I don't think you would see Lardy set up a long go bird past a shorter bird, unless he was working on primary selection. ;-)


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> I don't know what skill is required in picking up the short bird last that would require practice.
> 
> However, I think the strengths and weaknesses of the individual dog would make a big difference in whether I would even want to attempt it.


I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of Ideal selection. 

But, it seems to me that if you only train so that the dog goes 

1) Go bird
2) Shortest remaining bird
3) Longer bird
4) Long bird

You - and your dog - are ingrained to always be running longer for third and fourth bird

There are situations where that may not be optimal.

So, if you wanted more flexibility, you could train to long, long, then short.

That way, when you did it in a trial, it would not be new to you and the dog.

As far as playing to the strengths and weaknesses of the dog, that it what all good handlers try to do. 

Ideal selection is not for everyone. Any more than primary selection is. 

It is just another tool for the tool box.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> Trial tests do not make good training tests.
> 
> I don't think you would see Lardy set up a long go bird past a shorter bird, unless he was working on primary selection. ;-)


Really?? Interesting..... 

Angie


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

The issue of secondary selection vrs natural selection and primary selection has been tossed about in some of my training groups for years. There have been many "the best way to train" on short birds for the same amount of time. 

This is what I have learned after much thought. In past years there was more of a emphasis on the long punch memory bird , often retired and often the "money bird" that would keep you playing at a trial. So I would go out and make birds long and longer. Then take a excellent marker , at very young age say 6 months on up and do these long and longer marks with a single popper gun aften retired on the way. We would run the derby and sometimes the amateur all-age with the Derby dog , with luck ,sometimes have sucess placing in the Derby and or Amateur with the same dog at the same event. We would then fight issues for years with dogs over running short marks , line manner issues etc. 

The game has since changed.

One of my training partners off and on for 25 years would often argue that I was putting too much "go" his words, into the dogs and taking the "think" out of them, his words. I of course would turn a deaf ear. I hate to admit it but this guy, Dick Dallesasse, was correct.
Dick wouldn't run many derbies, but, maybe run one or two ,win one and move on to the All-age, sometimes I think just to make a point with me. (Dick has made about six or seven FC/AFC's over the years without Pro assistance)

I know he doesn't monitor this forum, so I will admit he is/was correct. Sometimes genetics does play a part, there are dogs and I have owned / trained a few that because of thier high drive would almost never check up on a short bird after going long. FC/AFC Mioak's Criquet Pas was a great marker and we even went to primary selection in training but it didn't help at a trial. She was the product of those loooong birds as a young dog and being a daughter of "Tank" well he liked to go long too. 

Dick always looked for a balance in training and still does. I think thats the key, start off when they are young, sometimes take the short bird out first, sometimes second. Do them as singles, take out the long bird as a single, then put the dog up, bring the dog back out run a short bird with the long gun standing as a single, etc, etc. My friend was/is correct balance is the key circa this era, without ,you are training for the "trick" not the over-all performance. Keep that dog thinking from the line before it is sent and after it is released.
Don't build too much "go" as Dick would say and keep the "think" in the dog at a early age to dig out those tough all-age marks they are now doing at the trials. 

Good thread Doug!


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Doug
> 
> I am not sure what you mean here.
> 
> ...


Maybe not, the simple definition of the handler selecting the 2nd bird.

But certainly the way it is taught by Lardy as well as the philosophy of why it is practiced by him.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> I know he doesn't monitor this forum, so I will admit he is/was correct. Sometimes genetics does play a part, there are dogs and I have owned / trained a few that because of thier high drive would almost never check up on a short bird after going long. FC/AFC Mioak's Criquet Pas was a great marker and we even went to primary selection in training but it didn't help at a trial. She was the product of those loooong birds as a young dog and being a daughter of "Tank" well he liked to go long too.
> 
> Dick always looked for a balance in training and still does. I think thats the key, start off when they are young, sometimes take the short bird out first, sometimes second. Do them as singles, take out the long bird as a single, then put the dog up, bring the dog back out run a short bird with the long gun standing as a single, etc, etc. My friend was/is correct balance is the key circa this era, without ,you are training for the "trick" not the over-all performance. Keep that dog thinking from the line before it is sent and after it is released.
> Don't build too much "go" as Dick would say and keep the "think" in the dog at a early age to dig out those tough all-age marks they are now doing at the trials.
> ...


Good points Earl.

I see where the dogs already have a good balance could benefit from the "ideal selection", but I don't think they have a problem with it either way. For example, I am comfortable at a trail letting Tara pick the birds up in whatever order she wants even though in training we always pick them up short to long after the go bird. Not so much, with my young dog that has "too much go", especially at trials. If I don't get that short bird 2nd with her, I generally don't think it's going to happen.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I hadn't been to a trial since the late 90's and had never heard of ideal Selection. Prior to this it was generally a three birdsand I would take the last bird down then th shortest. In the St. Cloud of Minnesota had been influenced by the Del-Tone training where would run outside-outside then middle.

From what I remember Primary selection was often used in training to get control on hsrd going dogs, but often failed in a trial situation. People occasionly tried to remove a bird before the gun was able to retire which usually ended in failure. Often I would use if the dog would indicate where he wanted to go next.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> But certainly the way it is taught by Lardy as well as the philosophy of why it is practiced by him.


And that philosophy is?


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Maybe I am not understanding you, Doug, but those guys do longer go birds. 

True, wouldn't run over the top of a short bird, but they do run by short guns.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Now that everybody has Short bird marking and Secondary and Ideal Selection all figured out (or is that argued out?) allow me to throw a wrench into the topic. Long retireds were once the “killer” bird but not so much anymore. Short retireds were then the money bird for judges but less and less these days. Today, the toughest retired in my view is the Middle retired. We’re not necessarily talking distance here but relative placement. There will be at least one shorter bird and at least one longer bird in the field-retired or not. Middle retireds often occur after ‘break points’ such as a change of cover or a hedgerow or across a pond but not at the edge. They occur where a dog has been running for some time and has no reason or target to check down on. Unlike short retireds where you can often focus them and “easy” talk them into concentrating short (whether you use Secondary or Ideal), the middle retired is out there too far to do this reliably.

Questions of the day are: How do you train for them and how do you run them in trials?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Dennis

Without looking through my diagrams for last year's AA tests, it seems to me that 

1) The Flyer was either the short or the middle distance bird (relatively speaking)

2) Money bird was split between punch bird and shorter bird

But, now you have me thinking about it


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Now that everybody has Short bird marking and Secondary and Ideal Selection all figured out (or is that argued out?) allow me to throw a wrench into the topic. Long retireds were once the “killer” bird but not so much anymore. Short retireds were then the money bird for judges but less and less these days. Today, the toughest retired in my view is the Middle retired. We’re not necessarily talking distance here but relative placement. There will be at least one shorter bird and at least one longer bird in the field-retired or not. Middle retireds often occur after ‘break points’ such as a change of cover or a hedgerow or across a pond but not at the edge. They occur where a dog has been running for some time and has no reason or target to check down on. Unlike short retireds where you can often focus them and “easy” talk them into concentrating short (whether you use Secondary or Ideal), the middle retired is out there too far to do this reliably.
> 
> Questions of the day are: How do you train for them and how do you run them in trials?


I am reminded what a judge told me once, "sometimes you are just better off with a dog that can mark". 

I'm assuming that tough middle retired bird is one that the dog has got to remember, as it would is nearly impossible to line a dog to it or talk a dog into it. IMO, that is generally one of the reasons to consistently use secondary selection, in training to pick up the next shortest bird. The dog becomes accustomed to knowing that that is the bird it is going to retrieve next and many times actually comes back from the first bird looking for it, as well as it being fresher in the dog's memory vs picking it up last.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Doug Main said:


> I am reminded what a judge told me once, "sometimes you are just better off with a dog that can mark".
> 
> I'm assuming that tough middle retired bird is one that the dog has got to remember, as it would is nearly impossible to line a dog to it or talk a dog into it. IMO, that is generally one of the reasons to consistently use secondary selection, in training to pick up the next shortest bird. The dog becomes accustomed to knowing that that is the bird it is going to retrieve next and many times actually comes back from the first bird looking for it, as well as it being fresher in the dog's memory vs picking it up last.


I agree with Doug's comments. However, I do believe that no matter how good a marker you have, that you can enhance their marking. Yes the Middle Retired is tough because your dog either has to be lucky or does have to remember it. I have about 7-8 guidelines that I use in training including secondary selecting the next shortest. However, I asked the question first and I don't want to answer my own question (yet!). How do you train for it? Any different than for short retireds?

Cheers


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

This is wonderful thread; and while at this point in my experience I have absolutely nothing to contribute; there is so much here I can learn. I hope threads like this become a much larger part of the forum. Thank you all!

Patti
________
Vapor genie


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## Brevard Arndt (Jul 2, 2003)

I agree with Dennis, the middle or intermediate retired is one of the toughest marks for a dog. I'm not altogether sure that a dog that doesn't mark well can be trained to be proficent at picking up that mark. 

I do think that it should be in the regular rotation in training.

I am just a stumbling amateur, but I just put the mark out there, usually as the near part of a hip-pocket, with a diversion "go" bird off to the side closer. Since I train alone most of the time and haven't invested in a mechanical retiring gunner, I just put a blind out near some cover and fire the BB off from about 20 yards from the blind. It is the best I can think of, but I know it doesn't replicate a "big time" all age mark at a trial.

It does require the dog to look for other clues besides the white coat when the mark is launched. Actually, I am trying to get him to pick out the blind and use that as a reference point. I do try to place the mark in that situation in light cover, so the dog can see it when it is close to the area of the fall.

I am open to suggestions that will tweek my method to better improve the results. I am retired and train at irregular times. I have a young man that is still in school that I use as my "live" retired gunner when it works out, but in the fall he is playing football and has practice until dark. I will be able to use him this spring.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Since even the most ardent trainers of secondary selection train for short check-down marks of both the retired and visible variety after having retrieved a long mark (possibly even after two long marks in some set-ups), are we not really splitting hairs over labels?

And Dennis, relative to training for the middle retired, I like to use gunstands while training to help the dogs draw some knowledge by association to AOF, no hand down versus hand down for the long bird & also voice differentiation (not as loud as the long bird). Of course the major factor that might contibute to success (if I have any...) is training repetition. I.e., make sure the dog has seen enough of such set-ups to understand them, teaching as necessary.

But a middle retired of an inline set-up is tough regardless.......


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Same here..
For my dogs, one thing that differentiates a short bird from the middle distance bird is the tone of the voice. 

On the short retired it may be very soft and on the long quite loud.... on the middle distance , depending on how far it is out there , from as soft as the short bird send, to something short of a booming long bird send. 

Also on the short bird I will use an "easy " que, where as on the middel distance my que is "watch it" in a normal speekng voice.
To que then for a long bird is done mostly with a louder tone of voice .

john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> How do you train for it? Any different than for short retireds?
> 
> Cheers


Drill for skill. Like virtually anything else I want a dog to be good at, I think the more exposure to it the better they become. By that I mean that I don't ONLY run frequent set up's that focus on any one specific concept. I run frequent stickman drills that may repeat a specific concept, perhaps 2, 3, 4, or more times in a setting. It allows me repeated exposure to it without relying only on corrections to accentuate it.

Having drilled on it for 3 - 5 days, I then begin putting that concept into my cold set up's on about a 2:1 ration, and keep my journal up on how the dog is clicking with it.

Evan


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

Is primary selection part of the training program for teaching ideal selection? Do you teach ideal selection to all dogs are just the animals that handle pressure well? When i trained trial dogs many years ago, primary selection was the key to getting the short bird thrown first. However, in my career i only had a handful of dogs that could handle that kind of pressure. The dogs and training methods have improved since that time and i am interested in the thinking behind all of these techniques and theories.
GG


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have always wondered about the merit of the cues we use

For example, assume short, middle, and long birds respectively

When you cue, are you cuing for distance?

That is "easy" means 50-100 yards, "middle" (or whatever you use) means 100-200 yards, "long" (hand, voice, or whatever you use)

Or are you cuing for relative distance?

That is "easy' means the shortest bird "middle" means next longest bird, and "long" means longest bird

And do you think that they are responding to your word - for example "easy" or rather the inflection of your voice and lack of hand?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Or are you cuing for relative distance?
> 
> That is "easy' means the shortest bird...


"Easy" = shortest next mark, wherever it's located in the set up. Never been really sure it helps a high percentage of the time, but worth a try. I do think it helps to sometimes to cue a check-down. Good question.

I don't cue on longer marks, other than to provide a bit more vocal accentuation on the send.

Evan


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> I have always wondered about the merit of the cues we use
> 
> For example, assume short, middle, and long birds respectively
> 
> ...


While I do as indicated in my previous post to cue, I have my doubts about it. Maybe it just makes me feel like I've done everything I can at that moment to help the dog be successful since I train with the same cues.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I have about 7-8 guidelines that I use in training including secondary selecting the next shortest. However, I asked the question first and I don't want to answer my own question (yet!). How do you train for it? Any different than for short retireds?


The difference in my training between a short retired and middle retired are:

1. no easy que for middle retired
2. louder sends. 
3. I run a lot as singles with BIM 
4. In training, I almost always retire the middle distance gun, kind of setting up the expectation that that bird is going to retire. (A lot of times I have him un-retire after the dog picks it up and I am working on a long retired punch bird.)
5. If that is the key bird of the test, after the dog has generally surveyed the test, it is the 1st bird I have the dog focus on.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> I have always wondered about the merit of the cues we use
> 
> For example, assume short, middle, and long birds respectively
> 
> ...


good questions Ted.

I feel that in general the cues are relative in terms of distance. For instance I will use an "easy" no hands down cue for a 200 yard mark after dog has gone 400 yards or so on previous mark(s).

In response to your last question, I feel the dog may slightly be keying on your verbal command; however I feel they are much more influenced by the volume and inflection used and the use of, or lack thereof, of the hand down in the sending mechanism


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I have always wondered about the merit of the cues we use
> 
> For example, assume short, middle, and long birds respectively
> 
> ...


I use the "easy" cue for a short bird. Short as in relative to the other birds. 

Yes, I firmly believe the dogs understand it. I have seen many dogs break down way short on a bird after given the "easy" que on a bird which the handler regretted giving the que afterwards. 

I use my hand and a loud send for a long retired punch bird. This too, I believe is effective. 

I try use the loudness of the send to try to que for distance generally, but, I am not real sure how effective it really is.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> You can train for short retireds while working on "ideal selection." The two are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> For example, imagine that you shoot a delayed triple. The initial double is short retired bird and then long flyer. Dog picks up long flier. Then you shoot another long bird with gun up. Dog picks up the long bird. Now you pick up short retired bird.
> 
> ...


This is a good post Ted.

This was a common scenario when I had Walker with Dave. 
This is something I use regularly in my training program as I'm sure others do.
It has many benefits, depending on the experience of the dog(s)

John


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think that:

How you set up (the more you mess around, the more likely that the dog will go long)
Tone of voice
Hand or lack of hand

Have more influence than the use of "easy" or "way out there"

But, I don't think that there is any way to know for sure

I have judged plenty of handlers who don't use "easy" or "way out there" who are great with short, middle or long retired birds, and plenty who didn't and weren't so great

As always, it helps if your dog is a great marker


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> it helps if your dog is a great marker


BINGO........we have a winner

I have read only portions of this thread with equal portions of interest and amusement

Having been fortunate enough to have spent the greater portions of the lifetimes of 5 great markers I believe there is no substitute for marking ability, and a LACK of over training (helping them) to such a point that they no longer trust themselves 

Honch, Percy and Cody were trained to be first bird selectors, Percy FREQUENTLY insisted on getting the flyer first (in competition), Cody was so bright that he understoood the process, even liked it...

the other 2 were trained with second bird selection only

we have ALWAYS done second bird selection in training (last bird down is retrieved first, then the next shorter bird, if it is difficult for the handler to tell the difference in distance it will also be difficult for the dog). 

As most know the game plan does not always happen as planned and we, as handlers must improvise.

Whatever method you choose, BE CONSISTENT, changing from one way to another as I have seen people do is counterproductive. Some dogs only mark at their best when they retrieve the birds in the order that THEY SELECT, and attempting to train them to do otherwise is also counterproductive IMHO

While there may be a few dogs who have the intellect to understand "ques" I question the dog's ability to grasp vague concepts, IMHO it would be better to spend that time throwing marks and getting tuned in with the dog so that you are playing as a team, that you know where you want the dog to go and the dog knows it too.....and then hopefully that the dog remembers where the bird is

great markers make trainers and handlers look good, be careful to whom you give due credit....;-) 

for those fortunate enough to have a dog talented enough to be in the 6th series or later in a National, be thankful that you must be concerned about bird selection on a quad with 2 flyers, the majority of us are happy to successfully complete an all-age land triple a majority of the time


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> How you set up (the more you mess around, the more likely that the dog will go long)


I think the more the handler messes with the dog at the line the more, he takes the dog out of "mark mode" and into "blind mode". In other words more of a "go as sent" mentality. 

I've seen PLENTY of handlers talk their dogs into an "easy" bird with a lot of "messing" when the dog was clearly thinking long. 



Ted Shih said:


> Have more influence than the use of "easy" or "way out there"
> 
> But, I don't think that there is any way to know for sure
> 
> ...


I think consistency is the key. 

I have seen Amateur handlers use "easy" to talk their dogs into an "easy" bird that wasn't even there. I have seen my own dogs change their focus from long to short with "easy". I am convinced they understand it.

I have a training partner that consistently uses "way out" for long marks and blinds. I have seen his dogs change their focus to the longer gunner when give the "way out" que. I believe the dogs do understand it.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> As always, it helps if your dog is a great marker


Finally the key factor is identified. You don't see those dogs that can't see past the end of there nose in the last series. I believe the cues other than "easy" to cue the short bird are mainly for the handler. There has to be a fair amount of credit given to the dog.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Now that everybody has Short bird marking and Secondary and Ideal Selection all figured out (or is that argued out?) allow me to throw a wrench into the topic. Long retireds were once the “killer” bird but not so much anymore. Short retireds were then the money bird for judges but less and less these days. Today, the toughest retired in my view is the Middle retired. We’re not necessarily talking distance here but relative placement. There will be at least one shorter bird and at least one longer bird in the field-retired or not. Middle retireds often occur after ‘break points’ such as a change of cover or a hedgerow or across a pond but not at the edge. They occur where a dog has been running for some time and has no reason or target to check down on. Unlike short retireds where you can often focus them and “easy” talk them into concentrating short (whether you use Secondary or Ideal), the middle retired is out there too far to do this reliably.
> 
> Questions of the day are: How do you train for them and how do you run them in trials?


Personally I shoot a lot of flyer's in the middle. Either converging on the long gun or behind a shorter bird. Never done as a triple but as a double with the flier gun retired and than add the third bird. This type of set up can also be used as a delayed triple to help with the memory middle retired. Balance has to be maintained as with anything you do. This type of set up is also ideal for short retired birds used in reverse. 

Flower pots are also good, middle gun retiring back to the long gun station and then changed to retire back to the short retired. These all help with the change of distance with nothing to mark off of.

I also do a lot of different lining drills with chairs in the field as gun stations. There are a lot of good dogs that are good liners not necessarily real good markers. A lot of these dogs get into the area of the fall on a line, scent it up and come up with a bird. By what I have learned it's all about getting to the area and the dog figuring out where it's at. Just a way of so called enhancing marking ability. There are many great dogs that are good liners and not so great at marking that manage to title and survive this sport. 

The most important thing that Dennis brought up in his last question and I think is very important is bird placement. Nothing can deliver better results at a trial then a well placed bird. These marks separate the men from the boys. They seem to be lacking at a lot of trials. Hench the concept type test that have taken over the trial circuits. 

Rex said dogs should go where sent, and that a flier down second should be picked up second because that's the bird the dog really wants. I think that is where this "ideal selection" comes in. But is it really ideal, or is it a control issue? You can see the effects of this at trials when you send for the dead go bird and the dog splits the difference between the go bird and the flier and hunts in no mans land. I also can't see me sending for a long second bird by a shorter retired. To many variables come into play like wind for one. 

The old rule of thumb used to be, take out the players first or the up guns and than fiddle with the retired guns. I still like to hold to that old school of thought, but I also train to take short guns second. Up guns with big white coats on have much more influence on retired guns than one would think. Especially if fido is a little unsure. 

This IMO is all about doing something in a trial that you have not worked on in training. Reading your dog and sensing what it is your dog is going to do is 90% of training and running trials. If you can't read your dog and feel comfortable that fido is going to do the right thing than you as well as your dog need to be trained. How often do you hear people come off the line and say that fido lied to them? Your dog didn't fail, you failed your dog. This is all about the team concept. The comment should have been, I didn't read him right or we need to work on this more. It's not your dogs fault that you haven't taught him what he is about to be exposed to. 

Why would you change the way you run your dog in a trial as compared to the way you train? IMO the only time I would do this is for example everyone is failing a certain bird because of something unforeseen. What makes me think my dog will do anything different then all the rest who have failed. John Wayne didn't run field trials, and you can only pray so much. All that being said I still don't think that I would deviate much from my game plan or my training. Notice I didn't say never.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

I really like all the great input into this topic. For sure there have been some good thoughts. The comments about the "you have to have a good marker" are dead on but I reiterate you can enhance even the good markers.. Regarding placement 

A really good Middle Retired is not just a Short Retired that is a little longer. It requires more refinement. Although, I agree lengths are relative, the killer Middle has hazards that prevent you from simply playing the check down early game plan. Put a pond or a hedgerow in the way and the dog has to drive it. Then, put the bird not on the shore or just after the hazard but another 75 yards further with room behind it. Thus, no simple drive to the long retired at the end of the field and no easy early break down. Such birds are not usually shot first and thus dogs don’t watch as well, Often a longer or equidistant flyer helps lessen memory and complicate the check down.

Skills needed: Focus, watch bird hard to ground, no head-swinging, drive hazards but then break down after a good run, stop before end of field, ignore longer and shorter diversion gunners. Huge mental presence of where you are-And oh yeah again- superb marking!!!

Observations: The “easy” cue presents problems. Easy cues across water often cause premature breakdown or getting sucked into shorelines or drag back. Need to drive the water. The distance and hazards of killer Middle retireds often cause dogs to lose their “stay relaxed and break down focus” which is the role of the no hands “easy” cue. It is very dangerous to say things like “watch” or “there” as you prepare to send. Often there is another gunner in the field of view-either longer or shorter. Big chance your dog will glance at them while you cue “there/watch”. I don’t say “there” when doing shorter retireds with a visible beyond.

Perhaps for those in the sunny south, this is all too much winter cabin fever talk for you (Zero F. here today PLUS big wind chill!). If not I’ll give my thoughts on how to train for in next post. 

Cheers


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

How I train for Tough Middle Retireds

OK maybe some have guessed I’m writing an article on this topic for next issue. I don’t have diagrams yet but will try to summarize my thoughts on this challenge. Note MRG means Middle Retired Gun –SRG = Short, LRG = Long. . 

1.	I work on focus and no head-swinging all the time. An especially critical skill for MRG. Often have triple or quad and do single first and don’t allow head swing. Do on outside so dog does not run up middle on a route near a short he will have to check down on later. If a longer gunner in field-have him retire while you do this so dog does not practice NOT watching long gun. Bring out later. (Do these procedures clarify some of the Lardy camp questions as to how to do long short?) 
2.	Do a lot of marks that have the elements of the killer MRG.as described in last post-across a pond but not at edge and not at end of field. Have dog comfortable driving hazards and then mentally checking down. Do these as singles first, and not retired and then as doubles retired.
3.	Set-up triples and quads with the required skills and break the test down –doing as singles but primarily as delayed triples or double delayed quads. 
4.	Early on delay the retiring of the killer MRG until dog is back on line and let him watch retiring. I do not retire after sending but let dog watch the retiring. This can be bird-in-mouth
5.	If dog is successful on a nitty-gritty triple quad (IF!!!!) then come back in a few days and put it together.
6.	Repeat repeat repeat concept elsewhere and continue teaching with broken down teaching set-ups-avoid the testing test. Maintain success and confidence-this is all about mental!
7.	Balance training and do lots of SRG and LRG.
8.	Use “easy” cue with great discretion. The word “easy” to my dogs is a cue to focus and relax and take it easy. I’m sure it doesn’t mean “Short” versus Middle or such. It’s more the act of “settle down nice and easy”. I suspect I could say “think think boy” and get the same result!

Note: No pressure on these MRG-help or handle.

Comments? 

Cheers


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> While there may be a few dogs who have the intellect to understand "ques"


"Cues" are prompts
"Ques" are not found in the dictionary
"Queues" are lines formed in England

But, I am certain you knew that ... otherwise, why put "que" in quotation marks.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> "Cues" are prompts


gee, thanks, obviously you understood my mis-spell

Have a wonderful holiday season

I am still skeptical about the effectiveness of "CUES"....


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> Have a wonderful holiday season


And you as well, Ed.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

To all that have put their knowledge into this thread I thank you. I often times find myself thinking "Why this order or that. How do Great Handlers think it through." As a fairly inexperienced handler this has been a great discussion that gave me TONS of information. Thanks to all.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> A really good Middle Retired is not just a Short Retired that is a little longer. It requires more refinement. Although, I agree lengths are relative, the killer Middle has hazards that prevent you from simply playing the check down early game plan. Put a pond or a hedgerow in the way and the dog has to drive it. Then, put the bird not on the shore or just after the hazard but another 75 yards further with room behind it. Thus, no simple drive to the long retired at the end of the field and no easy early break down. Such birds are not usually shot first and thus dogs don’t watch as well, Often a longer or equidistant flyer helps lessen memory and complicate the check down.


Wow, these are really great marks! I think what we need even more than knowing how to train on them is a primer for judges on how to identify and set them up. ;-)


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

*I may be wrong* since I am such a poor speller *but*.......Since we are checking on words that are or aren't.
What about retireds as in working on short *retireds* . 
Would that not be working on short _retires_ or better still, working on short retired marks

But retireds, what is that? 
Whatever it is I can't seem to locate it in the dictionary

Sorry for getting off topic but that kind of stuff just burns me up.

Some things are better left unsaid( " ") regards

john


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

> I may be wrong since I am such a poor speller but.......Since we are checking on words that are or aren't.
> What about retireds as in working on short retireds .
> Would that not be working on short retires or better still, working on short retired marks
> 
> ...


John, You are a "hoot" that's what you are!

(lifted from Boston Legal);-)
________
PENNY STOCKS TO BUY


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

john fallon said:


> *I*Some things are better left unsaid( " ") regards
> 
> john


Agreed!!!!


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

john fallon said:


> *I may be wrong* since I am such a poor speller *but*.......Since we are checking on words that are or aren't.
> What about retireds as in working on short *retireds* .
> Would that not be working on short _retires_ or better still, working on short retired marks
> 
> ...


I don’t retire my marks but I do retire my gunners. Whenever I have more than one retired gunner I have multiple "retireds". This is an advanced procedure that it seems even Webster doesn't know about yet. Surprising, since I think many of the RTFers understand this.

I also know that "Some things are better left unsaid" but on the other hand I also know that sometimes "this kind of stuff just burns me up" and that is why I don't post here that often.

A sincere Happy Holidays John AND everybody else.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I don’t retire my marks but I do retire my gunners. Whenever I have more than one retired gunner I have multiple "retireds". This is an advanced procedure that it seems even Webster doesn't know about yet. Surprising, since I think many of the RTFers understand this.
> 
> I also know that "Some things are better left unsaid" but on the other hand I also know that sometimes "this kind of stuff just burns me up" and is that is why I don't post here that often.
> 
> A sincere Happy Holidays John AND everybody else.


John's John.

WE LOVE HM ANYWAY!!!

Angie


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Dennis,
I'm sorry if you possibly thought that my post was directed at you. It was not. 

I was the one who misspelled cue ,and was not so subtly being brought to task about it. 
The spelling error that I pointed out was made by the very person who pointed out my mistake. I let it slide then, but I was compelled to bring it up after his needless pointing out of my error. 

In retrospect, for that I am sorry.

Happy Holidays to you and all.
john


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

Dennis,

Thank you for your contributions to this thread. One of the best traing/handling threads I've seen. I thought several others had good contributions as well.

Especially good for folks like me who have been HTers for awhile but are eager to learn the ways to produce an AA dog.

Thanks,
Mike


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Dennis thanks for the GREAT imput!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Yes,,, Thank U Dennis!!! 

We could use a few more guys like YOU around this joint....

There's always a jackass in every crowd....

Don't be a stranger,,, Please?

Angie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Yes,,, Thank U Dennis!!!
> 
> We could use a few more guys like YOU around this joint....
> 
> ...


Angie, leave my ass out of it......










and I might as well stick up for my friend bubba.......keep bubba and his ass out of it as too....











Can't we just get back to expounding personal thoughts on if dogs like to go long or not...?

/Paul


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

And just where would you like me to leave your sorry Ass,,, and the Ass of your little friend too? "My Pretty" hehehe.........

Why is it always about you and Bubba,, Paul?? Y???? :mrgreen:

Angie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Angie B said:


> And just where would you like me to leave your sorry Ass,,, and the Ass of your little friend too? "My Pretty" hehehe.........
> 
> Why is it always about you and Bubba,, Paul?? Y???? :mrgreen:
> 
> Angie


Oh it ain't all about us......










/Paul


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

So you think your Ass and your Bubba's Ass is gonna fit into some itty bitty jello cup???

I'm sure the designated, "Jack Ass", for thsi forum could help us with this 1!! He no's everthang.... U don't even hast to ask hm....



Angie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well, squeezing Bubba or my ass into one of those little cups would definitely be secondary selection, but squeezing your's into one would be ideal selection. See, this topic ain't so hard to follow if you illustrate it right....

/paul


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Once again, Ed Aycock's theory proves true. (all good threads can degrade into Gobbledygook)

What a bummer...

But seriously, I think that to many, this thread was among the most refreshing, envigorating, dog-training methodology stuff that we'd seen in a long time.

I know brother Terry (Trog) is worried that Dennis won't come back. I sure hope that's not the case.

Guys and gals...I ask that you please write to and address others as you yourself would like to be addressed. I believe brother Fallon has issued an apology, which was cool.

Have fun, train smart...and for my fellow flatlanders, be careful out there...this ice storm is SLICK!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Once again, Ed Aycock's theory proves true. (all good threads can degrade into Gobbledygook)
> 
> What a bummer...
> 
> ...


Don't worry Chris,,, Just having a little fun at the "party poopers" expense... All harmless and kinda funny... Party Poopers are good for something....;-) We're trying not to take him tooo seriously. To do so would be a *huge* mistake....

No harm done...

How can you be bummed out?? It's Christmas for cry'n out loud...:bday: 

Get the high octane egg nog and cookies....

Angie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well, Chris, it doesn't have to be that way. Yet how much can be said? Short bird marking is a concept, some dogs get it, others struggle. Some struggle with flowerpots, pinch birds, O/U's, hidden or retired. Selection is typically a tool people use to make up for a dog struggling with those concepts. This is what makes an Ideal selection dog so special and frankly rare. To have a dog that is comfortable enough and trained well enough to handle all these concepts consistently is truly a special dog. 

/Paul


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well, squeezing Bubba or my ass into one of those little cups would definitely be secondary selection, but squeezing your's into one would be ideal selection. See, this topic ain't so hard to follow if you illustrate it right....
> 
> /paul


I don't care WHO you are, that right there is FUNNY


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

Evan said:


> Dennis,
> 
> I didn't get a clear perspective on Dave's "Ideal selection" principle, either, but rather just came away with the idea that he pretty much sent for the go bird (whether long or short) and let the dog indicate which he got next. Did you get that sort of impression?
> 
> Evan


This (ideal selection) was a method that Rex worked on diligently in his later years. Some of his clients didn't approve...but he pursued this avenue in part due to what Grady (hello, Grady!) mentioned in his post (below) about the pressure necessary to properly and thoroughly train a dog in primary selection, but also because so many people didn't do that correctly...that being training for primary selection but without using the amount of flyers necessary to really get the job done reliably... Rex continually worked to improve his training methods and as trials and tests continued to evolve and the dogs did the same, he wanted the means to consistently pick up birds with style and pleasing attitude, two attributes that often came up short with primary selection, particularly when half-baked. 



GG said:


> Is primary selection part of the training program for teaching ideal selection? Do you teach ideal selection to all dogs are just the animals that handle pressure well? When i trained trial dogs many years ago, primary selection was the key to getting the short bird thrown first. However, in my career i only had a handful of dogs that could handle that kind of pressure. The dogs and training methods have improved since that time and i am interested in the thinking behind all of these techniques and theories.
> GG


It can be, or not, or better put, it depends...on any given dog. For some dogs, yes, for others, no...but in Rex's mind the key to ideal selection was that ideal selection worked best for dogs that didn't/don't handle pressure well...and yet he also came to see that primary selecting dogs often began "ideal" selecting on their own. 

It was indeed this phenomenon that prompted him to pursue ideal selection...or one of the catalysts, that is.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> From North of the Border:
> SO much snow to shovel that I missed the start of this discussion-but here’s my thoughts.
> 
> History of Selection (in brief)
> ...


There have been a few posts elsewhere on the Forum recently giving erroneous definitions for the various forms of _selection_ so I thought it would be an appropriate time to bump this to the top ,

john


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Doug Main said:


> A big reason for secondary selection, is to pick up the tougher short bird while it is fresher in the dog's memory. Is that the trade off? The fresher memory vs the absence of the suction from the long attractive bird if it is out of the picture.
> 
> *Does the it matter the type of dog? For example, a good short bird marker vs poor short bird marker. Or, a dog that is flier crazy and will go to the long flier anyway vs the team player that will pick them up in whatever order the handler wants. *Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?


From my experience it absolutely depends on the dog. All of my field bred Goldens have been very fast dogs with a lot of drive, but my first was an absolute fire breather. He was a reasonable marker, not great but good enough, he ran very straight lines through anything that was in his way, but he liked the feel of wind in his ears and really liked the long marks retired or not. He was six years old before he could check down. We tried "easy" cues, always did secondary selection of the short bird, everything we could think of, but he would take a perfect line right over the top of a checkdown bird, and unless he actually tripped over the bird, he just kept going long.

Like I said he finally matured and figured them out, but even in old age if I ran him long twice, there was no was he was going to check down on the last bird.

Then I got Yoda who was a much better marker from the get-go. As I say, Yoda was a very-very good marker, and he was super confident about his marking to the point that he knew in what order he wanted to pick the birds up. He liked going long after pickng up the go-bird. Try and select out the short bird next at your peril, as he would likely end up in no-mans-land between the long and short bird. I finally quit trying and let him have it his way, that's when I discovered he had the talent to pin the flyer, pin a long retired, then check down and pin the short bird. 

With Yoda you stepped back a bit as he returned with a bird and set himself up on the next bird, then step up, re-inforce the bird that he's already lined up on, take the bird out of his mounth and send him. If's a short bird he's lined up on, it's the "easy" cue then you launch him with a no-hand, soft send, if he lines up on a long punch bird, he get's the "way out" cue, hand down and a loud send.

Two different dogs, two different approaches. My Gus who is actually an even better marker than Yoda seems more willing to take them in the order that I select. With that said my training default position is to use secondary selection and enforce it in training, I tend to be more flexable on the line in a trial, good or bad.

John


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Worked on just this thing the other day. I shot some video and will try to load it tonight if I get the chance. This is a version of the W drill with only 3 stations. (First big set up since hunting season started)

Here's the layout description: On a hill over looking a hay field with rolls still in it. Wind is blowing from 7 o'clock to 1 o'clock as you look at the middle of the set up. The hill slopes down to the left. (Fall to hill on bird 1 and you're on bird 2, let the wind push you and you have to get deep to pick up bird 1) Bird one is at 312 yds thrown from left to right (slight angle back) Bird two is at 144yds also thrown left to right landing in the hip pocket of station 1. Bird three is then thrown right to left at 265 yds. The stations are all exposed.

Here's what I was working on: 
Big dogs- checking down for bird 2 after getting bird 3. (Trying to really cue the dogs to check down)
Youngsters- ran as singles long birds first followed by short (also working on cues for short marks)

Here's how they did:
Outlaw- 5 yr old (really who this was for because he will always pick up outside outside in no matter length if I let him choose) Front foots go-bird comes back looks long at bird 1. I cue easy and pull him to bird 2. He locks in and I kick him off. As he is going down the hill he fades just slightly with the wind and looks looks to be headed long. As he gets even with bird 2 he makes a hard left about 10 yds and picks up bird 2. Comes back and looks long and then proceeds to front foot bird 1.

Girly- 7 yr old, Front foots the go-bird, takes the cue and goes between gun station and bird 2 and with a very small hunt comes up with the bird. Carries a great line on bird 1 but squares the hill and ends up backsiding the gun but recovers nicely.

Spirit- 18 month old- Front foots the go bird, does exactly what I wanted and with a very small button hook gets bird 2, comes back and locks in on bird 1. When I kicked her off she gave me a terrible line fat right, ran a banana but front footed the bird. 

Tina- 18 month old- ran as singles, perfect on birds 1 and 3, overran bird 2 by 10 yds before she checked down.

Raider- 3 yr old, Front footed the go bird, checked down great but was off line and had a small hunt on bird 2, fought the wind and squared the hill and ended up in no man's land behind the gun station on bird 1, handled to recover.

Bear- 9 month old, ran as singles, did fine just getting stretched out. hunted a little short on 1 but recovered and did great on the other 2.

All in all it was a great session. I got exactly what I was wanting to get out of this set up. Moved and did a very similar set up without the hill factor with even better results.


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## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

I searched the topic of ideal selection after going back through a Retriever News article from Rorem about it and came upon this little gem of a conversation. This is really good stuff and thought I would bring it back out if others had anything to add and continue this topic.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Thanks for bringing this back, it is definitely one of the best training threads of all time. It was an article on teaching the checkdown bird by Dennis way back around 1996 that really taught me how to train my dogs on this difficult concept.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Granddaddy said:


> Obviously, based upon my comments in the previous thread, I train with secondary selection, shortest to longest approach. I also subscribe to the "keep it simple, stupid" theory.
> 
> Even in a trial, esp with a tight set-up, I don't think I would purposely send a dog for a long mark past a tight short mark (unless the dog clearly indicated he wanted the long mark in some way) before the short mark has been retrieved. The risk is too high that the dog would instead p/u the short mark anyway & I would be left with the prospect of attempting to convince the dog to take the same line again to the long mark (loud voice, hand down etc).
> 
> That's why I am convinced there is something else to Rorem's logic for teaching this 2 longs before a short retired as a concept that has not yet come into the conversation.


To me it appears the short marks are no brainer for the dog and if you could get him by those marks then go for it. I was surprised when the group I was with p/u the short first. Left me asking in my mind why and why one can't teach the dog to leave short alone? So all the marks down say to your dog, "no leave it" to the last short bird down???and aim him for the long bird??and say "that is it" . Should the dog go to where you want him to go no matter what? Just wondering?

I should add this is a great thread started before I joined RTF.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> To me it appears the short marks are no brainer for the dog and if you could get him by those marks then go for it. I was surprised when the group I was with p/u the short first. Left me asking in my mind why and why one can't teach the dog to leave short alone? So all the marks down say to your dog, "no leave it" to the last short bird down???and aim him for the long bird??and say "that is it" . Should the dog go to where you want him to go no matter what? Just wondering?



Dogs like to go short, long, longer
Dogs tend to want to run if they are nervous

You seem to have a smattering of questions
1. If you no the dog off of the go bird and pick up another, you are: a) opting for a bird in the hand versus two in the bush (you may find the go bird to be no easy proposition); b) putting some pressure on the dog by taking it off one with a "no" and opting for another (and dogs mark best when relaxed); and c) possibly making things more complicated than you want or need for them to be
2. In a National, it is the short nasty retired hen pheasant that often annihilates the field. So would you want to leave it for last (when memory is worst)? Moreover, if you go long second, you will find for reasons stated above, that it is hard to get your dog to check down


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> To me it appears the short marks are no brainer for the dog and if you could get him by those marks then go for it. I was surprised when the group I was with p/u the short first. Left me asking in my mind why and why one can't teach the dog to leave short alone? So all the marks down say to your dog, "no leave it" to the last short bird down???and aim him for the long bird??and say "that is it" . Should the dog go to where you want him to go no matter what? Just wondering?


Mary Lynn, not sure I fully understand your post. But it appears that you imply that the short bird is the easier"no brainer" bird
. That seems logical and may be true in certain situations such as at HT distances without a lot of factors.
However, for whatever reason, in Ft's most dogs will typically have more trouble checking down and digging out the short bird thrown in heavy cover, ditches etc; especially if retired. 
It may be counterintuitive, but a dog that goes long for a bird once or twice wants to go long again. Your chances for success{with the vast majority of dogs} are greater if you can teach the dog to successfully check down on the short bird before getting sent for longer birds, than it is to reverse the order and send for the long one before the short one


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> To me it appears the short marks are no brainer for the dog and if you could get him by those marks then go for it. I was surprised when the group I was with p/u the short first. Left me asking in my mind why and why one can't teach the dog to leave short alone? So all the marks down say to your dog, "no leave it" to the last short bird down???and aim him for the long bird??and say "that is it" . Should the dog go to where you want him to go no matter what? Just wondering?
> 
> I should add this is a great thread started before I joined RTF.


I see two others have already addressed this, but I'll back them up. Marking a well placed short "check down" bird is generally considered the hardest concept for field trial dogs to master. That's why we try so hard to teach our dogs secondary selection. 90% of field trials are picked up, "last bird down, short to long".

John


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Sorry to be confusing. I understand the comments and reason. Great info. Thank you very much for your replies!


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Hugh Arthur told me at a trial 8yrs ago and I haven't forgotten " Rin Tin Tin can't go long twice and check down short" that holds true in most cases but as Dennis V said earlier never say never when you are in a trial situation. I have heard Lardy say multiple times watch the last 5-10 dogs in front of you if you can, don't think your dog is that much better than the ones that have just ran. If they are not having success on a test try something else and take a chance, if the dogs in front of you are having success don't try to reinvent the wheel. Seems like my luck I'm always in the first five dogs to run so I end up running a test the way I train on it. I have stepped out of the box so to speak and been the one to break a string of bad jobs by trying something different, that has gone both ways on more than one test. Kind of like Babe Ruth you don't hit home runs swinging for doubles but you strike out alot also.
CB


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

While all of these varied training stratagies have merit (I was weaned on first bird selection but abandoned it years ago) there is simply no sure fire never fail method for getting the short bird other than having an excellent marker and even those miss the difficult short retired pheasant from time to time. As with most things sometimes it helps to have a little luck on your side too. Whatever method you choose as a trainer you should be consistent lest you confuse the hell out of your dog and you too. I am not clever or bright enough to experiment on gameday so I generally try to do things in competition the way we do them in training........lifer second bird selector that I am.


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## Brad Turner (Mar 17, 2010)

Chad we need to train on this more


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## Archery1973 (Jan 15, 2010)

I’m bumping this up if anybody has some contemporary thoughts on the subject.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Nothing new to report to my knowledge, no revelation. Both methods involve taking the last bird thrown first. With secondary or second bird selection the handler typically chooses the shortest bird next, with ideal selection the dog gets the bird it wants second. There are advantages for both methods, second bird selection demands consistent use to be effective. For me second bird selection is the method of choice because it seems to make more sense to me, others may disagree.


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## Archery1973 (Jan 15, 2010)

EdA said:


> Nothing new to report to my knowledge, no revelation. Both methods involve taking the last bird thrown first. With secondary or second bird selection the handler typically chooses the shortest bird next, with ideal selection the dog gets the bird it wants second. There are advantages for both methods, second bird selection demands consistent use to be effective. For me second bird selection is the method of choice because it seems to make more sense to me, others may disagree.


I like secondary selection and it works well for us in training. However, in 3 of the last several trials, she is going for the long retired second no matter what I do with her at the line. She has stepped on it 3/3 times but her marking on shorter middle retired suffers and she has only picked it up successfully 1/3 times.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Archery1973 said:


> I like secondary selection and it works well for us in training. However, in 3 of the last several trials, she is going for the long retired second no matter what I do with her at the line. She has stepped on it 3/3 times but her marking on shorter middle retired suffers and she has only picked it up successfully 1/3 times.


I have known more than one excellent marker who want the long bird second and get it successfully often when it is the most difficult bird. For me it would present a difficult choice, continue to second bird select in training or abandon it and capitalize on what appears a strength and allow her to get the bird she wants with the thought that eventually the short bird marking will improve.


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## Archery1973 (Jan 15, 2010)

EdA said:


> capitalize on what appears a strength and allow her to get the bird she wants with the thought that eventually the short bird marking will improve.


I was texting with Sylvia last night and this is what she and Judy recommends. Hence, that is exactly what I’m going to do. Thank you for reinforcing the good advice.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Archery1973 said:


> I was texting with Sylvia last night and this is what she and Judy recommends. Hence, that is exactly what I’m going to do. Thank you for reinforcing the good advice.


Given the information I have, which isn’t much, that seems the more sensible approach with plenty of upside and very little downside, good luck and keep us informed as there are other dogs out there much like yours. It is generally more prudent to paddle with the current than to try to paddle against it.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Here is Dave Rorem's Retriever News Article on Ideal Selection. 


https://www.roremretrievers.com/uploads/6/9/6/3/6963575/09-2010rorem.pdf



I am not putting any words in Dave Rorem's mouth but this is what I have learned from him. 

In my 4 years living in North Dakota, 2017 to 2021, I trained with Dave several times a summer and had many in depth conversations about "Ideal Selection" and how to train on it, getting the short bird last. There are many misconceptions and misunderstandings of how Dave trains on this. 

First, he does not ALWAYS get the short bird last. Also, I have never seen him require a dog to get the short bird last when another longer memory bird was on the ground. Instead, he sets his tests up to work on this. An example would be, shoot a long retired single. Then shoot a double, short retired, then longer flier, dog gets the flier, then the short retired, short bird last. A short retired bird is also the only bird I've seen Dave repeat in training, because he believes they are so important and difficult. 

Second, he does practice secondary selection at times to make sure his dogs are comfortable doing it in the situation he runs a test he feels it is necessary to pick it up that way and allowing the dog to select the long bird would be detrimental. 

Lastly, the main reason he believes getting the short bird last in training is the best way to teach short retired birds, is that he believes that by getting it 2nd and then running a long bird after the short, you will erode or erase the lesson the dog learned about the short bird. He wants to put the dog up on succeeding on the short bird, not running back past it to a long bird. 

I did this with my dog, who was terrible at SR birds, and he improved tremendously, it is how I train now.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

A well placed short retired bird especially in front of a flyer or standout long gun is deadly. In a large trial, a short retired can be fickle because wind changes can give it away. The hardest short retired to me is out in the field with something in the foreground (a hay bale or bush) to divert the dog away from a straight line to the bird. This requires a send and then a correction by the dog to get to the right area. Also slower dogs have an advantage as they are in the scent cone longer than a fast moving dog. This type of test usually eliminates my dog try as hard as I might at a trial. It takes a special dog to get the short retired in front of a long gun on a steadily successful basis. I train on secondary selection but don't fight at the trial. Usually this results in a crapshoot of whether I can get the short retired.


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## Archery1973 (Jan 15, 2010)

Thank you Darren re Rorem article. It’s reinforcing the advice from Dr Ed, Judy and Sylvia.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Ted Shih said:


> I have had several conversations with David about this subject and I still don't pretend to entirely grasp his rationale. However, I think - in part - his rationale is this
> 
> 1) If you want to win, you must be flexible
> 2) There are times in trials - and particularly in Nationals, where you will see quads, with two flyers and hen pheasant retired birds - where you must be able to go long twice, then come back for the short retired birds (or go long, short, long, short depending on the layout of the birds)
> ...


There is no statement in this quote that has any definitive suggestions or answers to anything remotely related to the question. If and where but maybe could be possible could happen could be if you are flexible possibly to be successful then maybe to sequence to where you might see a sign that could possibly be a out of order quad


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

I believe I saw a clip of Pat Burns talking about "Baby" (FC AFC Lock Fives Got Her Blue Genes On) after she was Top Amateur dog last year. I am majorly summarizing (and maybe remembering incorrectly) what he said but if I recall it was something like.... she always knew which bird she wanted next and they tried to "train" her out of it. And make her pick up what they wanted. And she wasn't as successful. So when they let her just do her thing... it seemed to work better. And 182 AA pts to show for it. 

Hopefully I am sort of remembering that clip correctly.


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

birddogn_tc said:


> I believe I saw a clip of Pat Burns talking about "Baby" (FC AFC Lock Fives Got Her Blue Genes On) after she was Top Amateur dog last year. I am majorly summarizing (and maybe remembering incorrectly) what he said but if I recall it was something like.... she always knew which bird she wanted next and they tried to "train" her out of it. And make her pick up what they wanted. And she wasn't as successful. So when they let her just do her thing... it seemed to work better. And 182 AA pts to show for it.
> 
> Hopefully I am sort of remembering that clip correctly.


Sure, I think we’re all hoping to have a dog that can do it like that.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Judd said:


> Sure, I think we’re all hoping to have a dog that can do it like that.


Of course, haha. Just making the point that Pat made which was, in her case, better to leave her alone versus forcing her into picking up the birds the way the handler wanted.


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## Judd (Nov 29, 2012)

birddogn_tc said:


> Of course, haha. Just making the point that Pat made which was, in her case, better to leave her alone versus forcing her into picking up the birds the way the handler wanted.


I think in the case of a marker that you don’t have to “drive” too much, you have to give credit where credit is due. Talented dog.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

One way to teach this is to exaggerate the concept using a hand thrown bumper, 
for example here after getting the go bird, pickup that short hand-thrown bumper:


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

The road to the titles of NFC/NAFC, FC/AFC is littered with the 
carcasses of handlers who tried to outsmart their dogs rather 
than recognizing their dog's native abilities & improving them.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Just a quick addendum to this thread: I just watched Pat Burns interviewing Judy Aycock this week and she discussed primary selection. She said Rex Carr believed this was a training technique that could be used on some dogs as an additional means of instilling control and discipline. While it might work with some dogs, she said it backfired for many dogs and people because it isn't a technique suitable for every dog or every trainer.

I really enjoyed it when she talked about the difference between training Raider (? I think that is who she said) and her dual champion Punt. Something she said that struck me was a trainer should try to walk in the dog's shoes--I love that as a way of saying train the dog in front of you.


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## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Question....Indented triple with a short retired that hip pockets a long flyer with a stand out go bird on the opposite side. If we are _training_ ideal selection the idea is to pick up the short bird last. If the dog decides it wants to pick it up second, would you call back and resend for the longer bird ? Handle to the longer bird or let the dog have the short retired?


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Norwester said:


> Question....Indented triple with a short retired that hip pockets a long flyer with a stand out go bird on the opposite side. If we are _training_ ideal selection the idea is to pick up the short bird last. If the dog decides it wants to pick it up second, would you call back and resend for the longer bird ? Handle to the longer bird or let the dog have the short retired?


See post #130


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## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Daren Galloway said:


> See post #130


Thanks Daren. 
It was this passage from Rorem's article that caught my attention. Made me think that perhaps the mechanics of it might be different than what you experienced when training with him. 

"We started the teaching process by making Scout get the short bird last and it was a very slow process. He failed at doing the short bird last for about the next 4-5 weeks. Then a significant change started to happen. We noticed that Scout started looking back at the short retired bird sometimes before we sent for the go-bird and then when he was coming back in from the go-bird. He was starting to think about that bird a lot but Rex still insisted that we leave it until last even if he wanted it second, because it was going to imprint him even more and he would become very good at that type of bird"

For me this gives the impression that it was set up as a triple (perhaps wrongly so) and not a long retired single and then a double with a short retired and a longer flyer.
If it is indeed a triple, how would Rex/Rorem insist the dog pickup the short retired last if he wanted it second?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Norwester said:


> Thanks Daren.
> It was this passage from Rorem's article that caught my attention. Made me think that perhaps the mechanics of it might be different than what you experienced when training with him.
> 
> "We started the teaching process by making Scout get the short bird last and it was a very slow process. He failed at doing the short bird last for about the next 4-5 weeks. Then a significant change started to happen. We noticed that Scout started looking back at the short retired bird sometimes before we sent for the go-bird and then when he was coming back in from the go-bird. He was starting to think about that bird a lot but Rex still insisted that we leave it until last even if he wanted it second, because it was going to imprint him even more and he would become very good at that type of bird"
> ...


I think you may have over analyzed intent, no one would discourage a dog from getting a short retired bird in favor of a flyer, I wish my dogs had that preference but few dogs do. I dislike labels for things, with the vast majority of dogs you should get the bird the dog selects. Having them be flexible for the occasion when doing something different is useful but not necessary to have a successful dog.


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## Paul "Happy" Gilmore (Aug 4, 2021)

Usually changes as often as the wind blows. (And changes direction) Discussing scenarios of if, ands, or buts. It rarely is much of a conversation of serious measure except in quads with at least 2 fliers. That don't come up much


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## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

J. Marti said:


> Just a quick addendum to this thread: I just watched Pat Burns interviewing Judy Aycock this week and she discussed primary selection. She said Rex Carr believed this was a training technique that could be used on some dogs as an additional means of instilling control and discipline. While it might work with some dogs, she said it backfired for many dogs and people because it isn't a technique suitable for every dog or every trainer.
> 
> I really enjoyed it when she talked about the difference between training Raider (? I think that is who she said) and her dual champion Punt. Something she said that struck me was a trainer should try to walk in the dog's shoes--I love that as a way of saying train the dog in front of you.


Discussing primary selection with a good friend that ran as an amateur under Farmer for years, he made the comment that of the dogs he had witnessed that could primary select reasonably well, they were almost all bitches, not males.
I thought that was interesting.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Norwester said:


> Discussing primary selection with a good friend that ran as an amateur under Farmer for years, he made the comment that of the dogs he had witnessed that could primary select reasonably well, they were almost all bitches, not males.
> I thought that was interesting.


I have known Danny since he was a young pro with 4 dogs. I’m glad his memory is that good because we all abandoned first bird selection more than 30 years ago. The absolute king of first bird selectors was NAFC-FC Trumarc’s Zip Code who was flawless, not so his half brother and housemate FC-AFC Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit😀


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## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

EdA said:


> I have known Danny since he was a young pro with 4 dogs. I’m glad his memory is that good because we all abandoned first bird selection more than 30 years ago. The absolute king of first bird selectors was NAFC-FC Trumarc’s Zip Code who was flawless, not so his half brother and housemate FC-AFC Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit😀


Ha .... I had to do a search as to what you meant as "first bird" / "primary" selection just to be clear I understood what you are saying.
Suppose I could have simply asked.
Seems that the definitions are not entirely universal. That doesn't help when the water is muddied enough as it is.

Another interesting thread regarding selection.

Selection vs Non Selection

As to Mr. Farmer's memory my friend was speaking of his own observations while an amateur under Farmer. He wasn't saying that was Farmer's opinion, or not.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Norwester said:


> Ha .... I had to do a search to clarify what you meant as "first bird" / "primary" selection just to be clear I understood what you are saying.
> Suppose I could have simply asked.
> Seems that the definitions are not entirely universal. That doesn't help when the water is muddied enough as it is.
> 
> ...


The same procedure but different nomenclature, I think first bird selection is more definitive and less subject to interpretation, we do also call secondary selection second bird selection, again more descriptive I think but then what do I know😳


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

X


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Great discussion.
If I knew HALF of what you all know I'd be happy ..
Am trying to wrap some brain cells around a lot of this, I've a question.
Saw the term "ideal selection" previously in the thread.
Is this a synonym for Primary Selection?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Swampbilly said:


> Great discussion.
> If I knew HALF of what you all know I'd be happy ..
> Am trying to wrap some brain cells around a lot of this, I've a question.
> Saw the term "ideal selection" previously in the thread.
> Is this a synonym for Primary Selection?


Quite the opposite, primary or first bird selection is the opposite of so called ideal selection


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

EdA said:


> Quite the opposite, primary or first bird selection is the opposite of so called ideal selection


Hey thank you EdA-
Earlier in the discussion I read what someone believed to be their belief /idea of ideal selection.
That being perhaps- what the dog wants..and that could be a short, long, or longer mark.
I do understand Secondary selection, but the wheels fall off in the mental rolodex between Primary , Ideal, with going as SENT, and the order in which birds fell.
Let's say in a real hunting situation, I've a fat juicy (crippled) Drake Pintail. I've a dead bird short ,(the last bird that fell, that I need to push the dog past, to the longer cripple. Short bird right in the dogs face.
HTest-
Poison bird short and another mark longer beyond the poison bird, dog marked it fall. Another mark with good separation which would offer up what should be an easy pick up.
But I want that mark beyond the poison bird to get it the heck out of the way while the aof is still fresh in pups head.
So I select that bird and SEND.
And I SEND the dog in the hunt scenario and push him past the dead bird to the cripple.
Was this Primary selection?
We went out of order in which the birds fell.


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## Norwester (Jul 1, 2015)

Swampbilly said:


> Hey thank you EdA-
> Earlier in the discussion I read what someone believed to be their belief /idea of ideal selection.
> That being perhaps- what the dog wants..and that could be a short, long, or longer mark.
> I do understand Secondary selection, but the wheels fall off in the mental rolodex between Primary , Ideal, with going as SENT, and the order in which birds fell.
> ...


From what you describe in your scenarios I would say yes, you would be using First bird as EdA defines it or Primary selection....


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Training today I experienced a pleasant surprise, as we did a indented triple with both outside guns out and middle short retired. Ducks on outside birds and dead hen pheasant on middle retired. I had always attempted to do this with secondary selection with the dog blowing thru middle retired on way to backside of standout gun. Lots of gunner help but didn't seem to have good effect on dog. Today I let her get long go bird, then other outside mark, both ducks, and sent her easily on middle retired and saw her put her head down and give a small hunt in the area without aid of the wind, and hunt up her bird. Don't know if this is an anolomy, or maybe just the way she's comfortable doing it. Will try other similar setups and see how it goes. Hoping for a breakthrough as this is her weakness in trials.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I have always been intrigued by primary selection. I know it has been abandoned by dog people far superior to me years ago, but it still is on my mind when many dogs are having trouble on a tough long memory bird just never had the guts to try it. I dont train for it but the other day I decided to try it.
Had a triple set up training alone as usual so no real flyer but simulated as well as possible with bird crate, chairs, mannequin type stick men. Even quacked the Garmin receiver to simulate gunners pulling a hen mallard out of the crate. Flyer was approx 80 yds with the first bird down tight behind the flyer at about 250 throwing opposite direction of the flyer. Second bird down was around 200 converging with the first but not too awful tight. I also have remote retired on the two long birds. Primary selected the long bird tight behind the flyer and sent her before it was retired but did retire it as she was sent as well as the second bird. She had no issue with going as sent and running past the flyer stepping on the long bird. Hunted the second bird a little then stepped on the flyer. I was very pleased by what she did. Think I'll train on it occasionally but dont know if I will ever have the guts to try it in a trial.
95% of the time I pick up in order unless she selects otherwise herself. A big part of the reason I tried this was simply to throw off the cadence of one, two, three GO! She is a high powered dog and amped at the line. This definitely helped with that. I usually do this by pulling her off a mark to run a blind, she doesnt like that too much but was much more compliant to pull off for another mark. I think it did her good to do something different and it was fun for me too.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Steve Shaver said:


> I have always been intrigued by primary selection. I know it has been abandoned by dog people far superior to me years ago, but it still is on my mind when many dogs are having trouble on a tough long memory bird just never had the guts to try it. I dont train for it but the other day I decided to try it.
> Had a triple set up training alone as usual so no real flyer but simulated as well as possible with bird crate, chairs, mannequin type stick men. Even quacked the Garmin receiver to simulate gunners pulling a hen mallard out of the crate. Flyer was approx 80 yds with the first bird down tight behind the flyer at about 250 throwing opposite direction of the flyer. Second bird down was around 200 converging with the first but not too awful tight. I also have remote retired on the two long birds. Primary selected the long bird tight behind the flyer and sent her before it was retired but did retire it as she was sent as well as the second bird. She had no issue with going as sent and running past the flyer stepping on the long bird. Hunted the second bird a little then stepped on the flyer. I was very pleased by what she did. Think I'll train on it occasionally but dont know if I will ever have the guts to try it in a trial.
> 95% of the time I pick up in order unless she selects otherwise herself. A big part of the reason I tried this was simply to throw off the cadence of one, two, three GO! She is a high powered dog and amped at the line. This definitely helped with that. I usually do this by pulling her off a mark to run a blind, she doesnt like that too much but was much more compliant to pull off for another mark. I think it did her good to do something different and it was fun for me too.


Steve I believe that may be a good way to introduce them to the concept of pulling off a flyer and getting the long retired.
Good first step on a difficult concept
But as I'm sure you know,,... pulling them off of simulated flyer with Stickman that retire in route to the long retired is nowhere near close to an actual trial environment with an actual live flyer with multiple live Gunners and human gun on the long retired.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Primary selecting means pulling off other longer birds and getting shortest bird of test first. What you described is not primary selection, if I read your description right.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> Steve I believe that may be a good way to introduce them to the concept of pulling off a flyer and getting the long retired.
> Good first step on a difficult concept
> But as I'm sure you know,,... pulling them off of simulated flyer with Stickman that retire in route to the long retired is nowhere near close to an actual trial environment with an actual live flyer with multiple live Gunners and human gun on the long retired.


YEP!




captain2560 said:


> Primary selecting means pulling off other longer birds and getting shortest bird of test first. What you described is not primary selection, if I read your description right.



I took primary selection to mean selecting the first bird that is not the last one down.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> YEP!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First bird or primary selection means taking the shortest bird first regardless of order of the throws. There is no descriptive term for what you did but I know a guy who tried that in the 5th series of a Natl Am, the flyer was a rooster and you can guess the outcome, as I recall he picked up


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

EdA said:


> First bird or primary selection means taking the shortest bird first regardless of order of the throws. There is no descriptive term for what you did but I know a guy who tried that in the 5th series of a Natl Am, the flyer was a rooster and you can guess the outcome, as I recall he picked up


I saw something similar in the 5th at the Natl Am in Roseburg some years ago. Dog picked up the first and second flyers. Was looking long as he came back. Handler wanted next shortest bird and dog went back to an old fall. This dog later was an NFC.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Run an amateur this weekend with short retired after longer flyer and was happy my girl checked down after the flyer. Hunted on wrong side of gun (one loop) but checked down with no aid of wind and went over and got bird. At least she was recognizing a mark😁👍.


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