# Stopping on Whistle



## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

I am struggling with this step in the training process. He will sit on a whistle while we are walking around the yard but when I try to stop him on the way to the pile he will not stop. He runs a good line even if I move the pile where he can’t see the bumpers. I have even tried stopping him on the way back to heel but he blows right through even with pressure. His drive and energy is crazy, but a good kind of crazy. We seem to be hung up on this step in his training. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Cutiger04 said:


> I am struggling with this step in the training process. He will sit on a whistle while we are walking around the yard but when I try to stop him on the way to the pile he will not stop. He runs a good line even if I move the pile where he can’t see the bumpers. I have even tried stopping him on the way back to heel but he blows right through even with pressure. His drive and energy is crazy, but a good kind of crazy. We seem to be hung up on this step in his training. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


What program are you following(if any)?


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

Chris Akin and we have a group that try’s to get together when we can


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Cutiger04 said:


> Chris Akin and we have a group that try’s to get together when we can


Lardy teaches sit on recall in the yard with dog on check cord and choke chain/pinch collar(I don't really remember Akin covering it in his DVDs if you had problems). For Lardy's process, sit him at about 5 yds and give 'here' command and whistle and pull up on rope at same time. If you have enforced sit with choke chain, dog should sit. Gradually sit the dog at longer distances until you are at the end of the check cord and have him sit 2-3 times on the way to you. Next step is to collar condition once it is reliable and you feel the dog fully understands what you want and has good compliance. I would gradually transition from pressure from check cord and the collar to collar only. Finally, proof it without the check cord(only e-collar). Once your dog's response is very snappy, then go back to pile work and introduce the whistle sit on the return.


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

Thanks for the advice. I will give it a shot


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## SweetJams (Oct 9, 2019)

I tried using a whistle before but since I had hyperacusis(noise/frequency sensitivity)I had to stop using whistles too. What I do now is clap or make hushing sounds to command my dog.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

https://youtu.be/uux-NCjhAS4
Start here. It's important to incorporate front sit into your basic ob.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

You'll find that if you work him on a place board for a while you can get that behavior very naturally, then transfer it to your field work.


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

Great tips. Put him back on the cord with a pinch collar this evening and he started off good. I will turn the e collar on Saturday And go from there. He understands sitting on whistle he is just super focused on the retrieve or the pile.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Caution about using ecollar. Don't blow whistle then burn. You need to see an acknowledge from him that he heard and understood (pausing, stopping but not sitting, etc). A cold burn as you blow the whistle will just create bigger problems. 
Is there anyone that can help you with this?


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

I have a couple of guys that I train with that are farther ahead and more experienced. So I what point to you use the e collar after he acknowledges me? It will be a few days before I turn it on.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

When he acknowledges whistle but only partially complies then blow the whistle again and nick.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Caution about using ecollar. Don't blow whistle then burn. ?


Does this mean I have been doing it wrong for 35 years?


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

Wayne Nutt said:


> When he acknowledges whistle but only partially complies then blow the whistle again and nick.


Thanks. I will definitely keep this in mind when it is time.


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## furandcollars (Oct 10, 2019)

Maybe try teaching him that one whistle is sit and 2 whistle is to stop so he would distinguish the difference.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

EdA said:


> Does this mean I have been doing it wrong for 35 years?


What would Skinner do?


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Rope...........


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Cutiger04 said:


> Chris Akin and we have a group that try’s to get together when we can


The quote above is your response when someone asked you what program you are following.. Please review the picture of flow chart below..



View attachment 79826


Is this Akins flow chart for Basics .. Similar order of steps? This chart is from a VERY reputable pro who trains with Akin and they follow VERY similar methods.. The hardest part of following a written program is knowing when to move to the next step, or staying grounded, and not jumping over steps…

If this flow chart is similar,, Notice that the first couple steps are Obedience (OB), then Collar Conditioning (CC).. Then Force fetch (FF).. Take Note that Pile work, Force to Pile (FTP), Sit to pile (STP) Mini T (MT) ,is farther down the progression list…
You stated in your original post, ,Dog sits on leash, but wont sit when sent to a pile.. Are you skipping steps? Have you FORCE FETCHED yet. And have to progressed past Force To Pile? ..
If you believe that your dog is consistent with Akins Collar Conditioning (CC) step,and performing sound responses to the collar,, the next step is Force Fetch.. Not testing to see if dog wiil SIT TO PILE.. That step is way down the list…
All of what I said is meaningless IF AKINS Flow Chart is different than the one I just posted… Could you post a picture of AKINS flow chart??? Maybe that would help with suggestions others are tying to give you..
Like I said, the flow chart I posted, I will just about bet, is very similar to AKIN.. I MIGHT be wrong though. Its been known to happen once before…


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Does that "group" you train with follow Akin?? Be careful taking advice from others who follow different programs or methods... AKIN is the one you should ask your questions.. JMHO.. Easily confused regards... Gooser..


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I like the traffic cop style. Put the dog on a remote sit (dog must be steady) walk away and throw the bumper to where you are between the dog and bumper. In route hit the sit whistle and you can step in between and stop the dog.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Fake a throw, stop the dog with whistle and rope, throw ball between you and the dog as a reward...


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Daren Galloway said:


> Rope...........


Or, preemptively and pro-actively:

Loaded food bowl.............three times a day...........come-in whistle.............followed by sit whistle (or verbal)...................halfway to the promised land (about six feet of the 12 that a pup must travel toward you for his din-din)................you, on the "receiving end" standing over food bowl, ready to pounce and "intercept" a non-sitter and return her or him to the starting line................... and speaking of starting, this preemptive pre-training stop whistle starts at, oh, 9 weeks old.

Creating a habit early on - a good habit with no negative connotations or pressure, and with a very "measurable" reward for compliance. 

MG


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

MooseGooser said:


> Cutiger04 said:
> 
> 
> > Chris Akin and we have a group that try’s to get together when we can
> ...


He has been through obedience and force fetched. Our “group” consists of three people. The other two compete with HRC and one is in the SRS. I just hunt.


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

It’s hard to ascertain exactly where you are and what you’ve done but I would be very careful about using collar pressure unless you’re CC and FF are super solid especially with walking fetch using the collar as a final stage. Most people seem to hurry through FF and he needs to be very solid and understands the collar or you could create some problems that could be difficult to overcome. My advice would be to find someone higher on the food chain to help possibly a pro. Be careful.


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## [email protected] (Jul 16, 2018)

I’d condition sit with more pressure whip and collar. I’d use a long lead send him and immediately stop him don’t let him get a full head of steam. I’d have a pinch collar on him as well. His sit has got to be perfect it’s imperative for success. High drive dogs like that are fun to run but u can’t be afraid to give stern corrections when they know they are being disobedient. The negative to stern corrections like that is u may develop a popping problem. Just balance it out once you get him stopping. Keep ur standards really really high on this step and keep them high forever.

Good luck 

Luke


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ken Barton said:


> It’s hard to ascertain exactly where you are and what you’ve done but I would be very careful about using collar pressure unless you’re CC and FF are super solid especially with walking fetch using the collar as a final stage. Most people seem to hurry through FF and he needs to be very solid and understands the collar or you could create some problems that could be difficult to overcome. My advice would be to find someone higher on the food chain to help possibly a pro. Be careful.



I agree with what Ken just told you... Collar conditioning, and Force fetch are two very important steps, that must be taught correctly, and Consistently. Both subjects have different methods with different trainers.. Chris Akins has a facebook page, he seems approchable.. He lists his phone number on his webpage. I bet right now he is busy at a national event, so, probably a bad time to contact him..

Its best though, to pick a method/ Program, and strictly stick with that method, and don't mix ideas or other peoples programs..

Good luck to you..

Gooser
​


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

Thanks for all the info. I sent him to someone far more experienced than me for force fetch and collar conditioning. So that been pretty consistent. I will just reign him in a little.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Teaching whistle sits. This video was after doing the traffic cop method. Start in between the dog and the bumper and gradually move to their side. 

I believe it creates a great sit whistle response. 

I know my dogs have their flaws and are not perfect by any means but they sit on the whistle. 

Still was a work in progress at this point 

https://youtu.be/Ks-0IM9QRYk


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

crackerd said:


> Or, preemptively and pro-actively:
> 
> Loaded food bowl.............three times a day...........come-in whistle.............followed by sit whistle (or verbal)...................halfway to the promised land (about six feet of the 12 that a pup must travel toward you for his din-din)................you, on the "receiving end" standing over food bowl, ready to pounce and "intercept" a non-sitter and return her or him to the starting line................... and speaking of starting, this preemptive pre-training stop whistle starts at, oh, 9 weeks old.
> 
> ...


Yes, good timing can be important.
Time the sit whistle so pup is in the act of sitting... ( can not fail):


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

Bryan Parks said:


> Teaching whistle sits. This video was after doing the traffic cop method. Start in between the dog and the bumper and gradually move to their side.
> 
> I believe it creates a great sit whistle response.
> 
> ...


Awesome video


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Well I am not Mike Lardy or Bill Hillman but I have trained a good number of dogs to handle and haven't had one yet not stop the first time I blew a whistle in route to the pile. With that being said here is my method. I have NEVER USED A ROPE ON THIS BECAUSE I HATE ROPES!!!!!!!! Well that and I don't need one.
A little background on this dog. Apporx 1 yr old and not the sharpest knife in the drawer but lots of drive. Obedience is solid (main reason I don't need a rope). I had started 3 handed casting with her about 3 weeks ago basically throwing a bumper to each pile just to identify and teach the pile, blowing the whistle and casting. Did this for about 3 days and she had a surgery to remove a growth on her ankle so that put her out for awhile but then she chewed off her bandage and ripped out stiches. Opened it up enough that it couldn't be stitched back together. So it's been about 3 weeks healing and doing nothing. This video is the 4th day getting back into it. As I said she is not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I pretty much started over but she did remember some and progressed to where I could plant the piles and cast without throwing a bumper there. None of my dogs ever hear a sit whistle until I start 3 handed casting. I simply have the dog already in the sit position blow the whistle and cast. I don't spend one second teaching a sit whistle I just blow it when I start teaching casting. Just blow before every cast with the dog already at sit and when the dog returns to sit. Not saying you cant teach it separately just saying you don't need to. I have not yet sent this dog from my side and tried to stop her in route. Again just 4 days getting back into this but watch when she tries to go over when I cast her back. I was able to stop her with the whistle(no rope) and get her to the back pile. I do have another dog that I am stopping in route and I will try and do a video of her. If I had the dog in the original post I would go back to 3 handed casting blowing the whistle before each cast for at least a week before trying to stop him in route. Not sure this will work on a dog that is already blowing off a whistle or not, never tried it that way, but when bringing a dog along this way I have never had one not stop the first time blowing the whistle. Basically it is a cast whistle and the sit is automatic.
https://youtu.be/WOkHXNGno48


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Steve I’m with you. Beautiful background.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I like a dog to spin and sit. not spin partway and stand, not spin partway and sit (or not even turn at all, which I have seen on numerous times in tests, and is always very comical). I want a full 180 degree spin and then sit. I have not trained as many dogs as most people here, but my experiences (and observations) have been that a dog that is taught/reinforced only to sit with collar correction is not going to give a full turn - or the turn will eventually degrade. They want too much to get their butt on the ground - so they don't turn all the way. I suppose this is why I will always use Farmer's method of rope. Put a flat buckle collar on - send the dog, toot the whistle while bringing the dog to an abrupt halt with the rope. Physics will make the dog come to a full turn facing me. After the dog is conditioned to this, it is easy to slip in collar corrections with rope corrections, and finally only collar corrections as needed. 

I agree, ropes can be a pain, but for me, they are very useful.

I also really like giving the dog a reason to turn and sit... so every once in a while, when I stop a dog en route, I will throw them a bumper. Reward them for the behavior. ( I believe this has also been mentioned by others)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It also helps to sit the dog straight to get the correct cast, just saying


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Of all the dogs I've trained I have only had to use the rope once. I agree it is a pain but occasionally it's the only way. More common is loopy and crocked sits.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think what has gotten lost is what was asked in the first 3 posts of thread.. OP describes his problem.. (A Poor sit standard in my opinion).. then The OP wass asked what program if any is he following.. His answer is Akin...

Here is what I believe is a flow chart that is similar to Akins...​

 First step is obedience... It sounds as though Obedience isn't solid.. The dog doesn't SIT! But Later in the the thread, OP starts to talk about collar use, He states dog understands whistle sit.. and is "Going to turn on collar, Saturday".... 

Notice, that the second step in flow chart is collar conditioning... If you look into Akin, he collar conditions to all obedience commands. His collar methods are different from mine for example.. When he uses his finger to push the button, and when the command is said, also the intensity setting on collar.. Advice starts to be given on collar use to enforce commands, based on a different Trainers techniques (lardy)… Lardy flow chart Much different.....

After a few questions asked to OP about the collar conditioning, and Force fetch BEFORE he is trying to sit to pile step, He states the dog was "Sent to a more experienced person to complete these steps" did that person, still follow AKINS methods?? we dont really know..

So now, the discussion is how we all make suggestions to the OP our own different methods to teach sit..  (He stated the dog knows sit, Understands whistle sit..) None of us know if the dog does or doesnt really know this.. (My thinking (assumption) is the dog has been taught, but not enough repetitions in training to solidify a correct response, and the OP sent the dog off to another person to train the collar, and Force Fetch

His direct question is asking why his dog wont sit on a whistle wen sent to a pile... Look at flow chart... Has 3 handed casting been compleated.? has FTP been compleated (How does AKIN FORCE?) has HE (OP )completed those steps, ,and is the dog performing those steps solidly?

If the dog has truelyprogressed to the step of STP per flow chart, the dog SHOULD have a VERY solid SIT ..

Is the answer about HOW to teach sit??or is it about enforcement after that command has been given? Remember the OP says the dog knows the basic command.. He also states the dog has been collar conditioned to that command. The dog has been Force fetched (The method of collar conditioning, and Force fetch may be different than yours)..

There are steps in flow chart before STP.... That haven't been discussed.. Remember,, he stated he is following AKINS..
​


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Do you all beleive, with consideration of an inexperienced handler/Trainer, That BASIC advice, should be given simply, and with consistency... such as

Pick a program/ method/ experienced person,, and then religiously stick with that program/method/ person teachings to gain that basic knowledge . Commit yourself to that program/method/person, and don't waiver..


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes I believe that. Lots of unanswered questions. That is why i suggested getting help from an experienced trainer. I don't think the OP knows or has much experience. And it is really had to fill in all the gaps on this thread.


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## Jerryd56 (Feb 12, 2019)

All good tips and info for you to follow... 
However you have to stop running him/her to the pile until you have the whistle sit "finished".
Allowing him to run through the whistle is reinforcing the behavior. 
I had a friend that worked through the same issue last year, in my opinion the dog thinks the faster it gets there the better, when you stimulate the dog it believes it must not be going fast enough and the stimulation actually makes it worse. (same with a dog that barks the more pressure you put on it with an ecollar generally the worse it gets also). The way we worked with that dog was back to the yard and worked whistle sits until it was perfect, then to a park on a check cord to change environment, then to a field to change the look and stimulation and lastly to an actual training night with the other dogs and stimulation. At the training night we used the same process, on the cord, a brief session with the whistle then to the line. If the dog broke down and ran through the whistle it was back to drills and in the truck... No bumpers or birds... After 2 - 3 weeks the dog got the picture that noncompliance meant no bumpers and no birds and a long night in the truck while his buddies were having a great night. Once the dog understood the whistle meant Sit no matter where or when it began to work well and now handles really nice. 
Other things he did was have the dog on a check cord in the yard and when it is simply walking around blow the whistle and have it sit, when it is in the house rather than have it sit by command blow a whistle, before you feed him blow a whistle and have him sit. 
And lastly every time it Sits on a whistle give it some form of positive feed back especially in the beginning so it make the connection that sitting is the right choice and is rewarded with something as simple as Good Dog... 
Hope this helps - 
This is a great site with many good people and lot's of years of experience...
Good Luck!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I am prolly gonna get in trouble... But, the title of the thread says a lot... " Stopping on Whistle" 

If you read the original first post, and substitute stop or stopping with "sit" I think that will say something.

Setting your own personal high standard and consistently enforcing that standard, is hard for most new trainers. Also, if following a written program, even if program comes with DVD ect,, it hard to know WHEN to move on to the next step.. It really helps to have a VERY EXPERIENCED person proof or crtitique your worl as you go along.. Especially with your first dog. JMHO.

Also, I can not tell you the number of guys, that will quote a rule book when you are at Like, or example,, a club training day, and you may be hammering your dog to sit on a whistle when running a blind,,and some guy pipes up and says "You know,, they arnt required to sit on a whistle"... I think, again,, this should never be said at a TRAINING day... The rules may allow the dog to STOP, and look over its shoulder for cast, BUT,, MY STANDARD ,,and my desire to be fair and consistent with my TRAINNING says MY dog better sit NOW and be facing me ,ready for a cast.. To not be consistent with High Standards, IMHO, are the main reasons for problems..​


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Steve Shaver said:


> Well I am not Mike Lardy or Bill Hillman but I have trained a good number of dogs to handle and haven't had one yet not stop the first time I blew a whistle in route to the pile. With that being said here is my method. I have NEVER USED A ROPE ON THIS BECAUSE I HATE ROPES!!!!!!!! Well that and I don't need one.
> A little background on this dog. Apporx 1 yr old and not the sharpest knife in the drawer but lots of drive. Obedience is solid (main reason I don't need a rope). I had started 3 handed casting with her about 3 weeks ago basically throwing a bumper to each pile just to identify and teach the pile, blowing the whistle and casting. Did this for about 3 days and she had a surgery to remove a growth on her ankle so that put her out for awhile but then she chewed off her bandage and ripped out stiches. Opened it up enough that it couldn't be stitched back together. So it's been about 3 weeks healing and doing nothing. This video is the 4th day getting back into it. As I said she is not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I pretty much started over but she did remember some and progressed to where I could plant the piles and cast without throwing a bumper there. None of my dogs ever hear a sit whistle until I start 3 handed casting. I simply have the dog already in the sit position blow the whistle and cast. I don't spend one second teaching a sit whistle I just blow it when I start teaching casting. Just blow before every cast with the dog already at sit and when the dog returns to sit. Not saying you cant teach it separately just saying you don't need to. I have not yet sent this dog from my side and tried to stop her in route. Again just 4 days getting back into this but watch when she tries to go over when I cast her back. I was able to stop her with the whistle(no rope) and get her to the back pile. I do have another dog that I am stopping in route and I will try and do a video of her. If I had the dog in the original post I would go back to 3 handed casting blowing the whistle before each cast for at least a week before trying to stop him in route. Not sure this will work on a dog that is already blowing off a whistle or not, never tried it that way, but when bringing a dog along this way I have never had one not stop the first time blowing the whistle. Basically it is a cast whistle and the sit is automatic.
> https://youtu.be/WOkHXNGno48


I also do not use a rope. 
I routinely have pup whistle sit on daily dog walks in my neighborhood...develop a good habit.
Here are 2 short video clips, one up close, one as pup is running full speed at a distance.
Note the much longer duration of whistle for the second video clip to ensure pup hears the whistle and
can respond.


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

A lot of good tips. This isn’t my first dog but my second. My other dog just got it. He would blow through a brick wall to get a bumper. He is steady to shot and understands his cast. We walk around the yard blow a whistle he sits. Going to the food bowl. Blow. Whistle he sits. Go to place blow. Whistle he sits. Be when it time to pick up a bumper that all he wants is to pick it up and get back to heel or be cast to place. I have no intent on competing with my dogs but I am not satisfied with just a meat dog especially when they have potential. I have followed Akin duck dog basics to a T. The problem is he stops the dog in route to the pile and then cast back. My dog just wants that bumper in his mouth. Sorry if I left out any info but this may help anyone understand where I am at.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Steve Shaver said:


> Well I am not Mike Lardy or Bill Hillman but I have trained a good number of dogs to handle and haven't had one yet not stop the first time I blew a whistle in route to the pile. With that being said here is my method. I have NEVER USED A ROPE ON THIS BECAUSE I HATE ROPES!!!!!!!! Well that and I don't need one.
> A little background on this dog. Apporx 1 yr old and not the sharpest knife in the drawer but lots of drive. Obedience is solid (main reason I don't need a rope). I had started 3 handed casting with her about 3 weeks ago basically throwing a bumper to each pile just to identify and teach the pile, blowing the whistle and casting. Did this for about 3 days and she had a surgery to remove a growth on her ankle so that put her out for awhile but then she chewed off her bandage and ripped out stiches. Opened it up enough that it couldn't be stitched back together. So it's been about 3 weeks healing and doing nothing. This video is the 4th day getting back into it. As I said she is not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I pretty much started over but she did remember some and progressed to where I could plant the piles and cast without throwing a bumper there. None of my dogs ever hear a sit whistle until I start 3 handed casting. I simply have the dog already in the sit position blow the whistle and cast. I don't spend one second teaching a sit whistle I just blow it when I start teaching casting. Just blow before every cast with the dog already at sit and when the dog returns to sit. Not saying you cant teach it separately just saying you don't need to. I have not yet sent this dog from my side and tried to stop her in route. Again just 4 days getting back into this but watch when she tries to go over when I cast her back. I was able to stop her with the whistle(no rope) and get her to the back pile. I do have another dog that I am stopping in route and I will try and do a video of her. If I had the dog in the original post I would go back to 3 handed casting blowing the whistle before each cast for at least a week before trying to stop him in route. Not sure this will work on a dog that is already blowing off a whistle or not, never tried it that way, but when bringing a dog along this way I have never had one not stop the first time blowing the whistle. Basically it is a cast whistle and the sit is automatic.
> https://youtu.be/WOkHXNGno48


That field brings back memories, love it out west.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Steve Shaver said:


> Well I am not Mike Lardy or Bill Hillman but I have trained a good number of dogs to handle and haven't had one yet not stop the first time I blew a whistle in route to the pile. With that being said here is my method. I have NEVER USED A ROPE ON THIS BECAUSE I HATE ROPES!!!!!!!! Well that and I don't need one.
> A little background on this dog. Apporx 1 yr old and not the sharpest knife in the drawer but lots of drive. Obedience is solid (main reason I don't need a rope). I had started 3 handed casting with her about 3 weeks ago basically throwing a bumper to each pile just to identify and teach the pile, blowing the whistle and casting. Did this for about 3 days and she had a surgery to remove a growth on her ankle so that put her out for awhile but then she chewed off her bandage and ripped out stiches. Opened it up enough that it couldn't be stitched back together. So it's been about 3 weeks healing and doing nothing. This video is the 4th day getting back into it. As I said she is not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I pretty much started over but she did remember some and progressed to where I could plant the piles and cast without throwing a bumper there. None of my dogs ever hear a sit whistle until I start 3 handed casting. I simply have the dog already in the sit position blow the whistle and cast. I don't spend one second teaching a sit whistle I just blow it when I start teaching casting. Just blow before every cast with the dog already at sit and when the dog returns to sit. Not saying you cant teach it separately just saying you don't need to. I have not yet sent this dog from my side and tried to stop her in route. Again just 4 days getting back into this but watch when she tries to go over when I cast her back. I was able to stop her with the whistle(no rope) and get her to the back pile. I do have another dog that I am stopping in route and I will try and do a video of her. If I had the dog in the original post I would go back to 3 handed casting blowing the whistle before each cast for at least a week before trying to stop him in route. Not sure this will work on a dog that is already blowing off a whistle or not, never tried it that way, but when bringing a dog along this way I have never had one not stop the first time blowing the whistle. Basically it is a cast whistle and the sit is automatic.
> https://youtu.be/WOkHXNGno48


That's just technically sound dog training right there


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

I LOVE this idea. Thank you for posting.




Steve Shaver said:


> Well I am not Mike Lardy or Bill Hillman but I have trained a good number of dogs to handle and haven't had one yet not stop the first time I blew a whistle in route to the pile. With that being said here is my method. I have NEVER USED A ROPE ON THIS BECAUSE I HATE ROPES!!!!!!!! Well that and I don't need one.
> A little background on this dog. Apporx 1 yr old and not the sharpest knife in the drawer but lots of drive. Obedience is solid (main reason I don't need a rope). I had started 3 handed casting with her about 3 weeks ago basically throwing a bumper to each pile just to identify and teach the pile, blowing the whistle and casting. Did this for about 3 days and she had a surgery to remove a growth on her ankle so that put her out for awhile but then she chewed off her bandage and ripped out stiches. Opened it up enough that it couldn't be stitched back together. So it's been about 3 weeks healing and doing nothing. This video is the 4th day getting back into it. As I said she is not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I pretty much started over but she did remember some and progressed to where I could plant the piles and cast without throwing a bumper there. None of my dogs ever hear a sit whistle until I start 3 handed casting. I simply have the dog already in the sit position blow the whistle and cast. I don't spend one second teaching a sit whistle I just blow it when I start teaching casting. Just blow before every cast with the dog already at sit and when the dog returns to sit. Not saying you cant teach it separately just saying you don't need to. I have not yet sent this dog from my side and tried to stop her in route. Again just 4 days getting back into this but watch when she tries to go over when I cast her back. I was able to stop her with the whistle(no rope) and get her to the back pile. I do have another dog that I am stopping in route and I will try and do a video of her. If I had the dog in the original post I would go back to 3 handed casting blowing the whistle before each cast for at least a week before trying to stop him in route. Not sure this will work on a dog that is already blowing off a whistle or not, never tried it that way, but when bringing a dog along this way I have never had one not stop the first time blowing the whistle. Basically it is a cast whistle and the sit is automatic.
> https://youtu.be/WOkHXNGno48


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The program I followed, first step was formal obedience.. This included Here, Heel(Two sided, I chose not to train two sided) Side and front Sit, Sit to whistle..
The next step in program was Force Fetch.. I was instructed, in order for the dog to be Force fetched, it MUST have a very solid sit before we would proceed to that step.. VERY SOLID…… Here is a quick Vid of dog at a stage in her schooling of Sit.. No whistle yet, just verbal command. She is about 4 months old..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM5yHtrAKtc


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

as she progressed with this basic training, whistle was added as we walked at heel. I would command sit, then whistle, … many repetitions of this everyday for about ten minutes or so.. eventually whistle,and verbal sit command was same thing.. The SIT has to be very solid before I progressed to Force fetch.. very solid..Notice in the program I followed, whistle sit is part of basic obedience and the first step.. Notice in Steves program,, he doesn't whistle sit tillhe is teaching casting (three handed casting)To the original poster,, notice in your flow chart,,,, 3 handed casting is down the list, but BEFORE you are teaching sit to pile... It does matter when you train this IF,, you are following your program "TO A TEE" EACH step must be solid BEFORE you move on to the next.. I had to have someone define what solid meant.. That persons definition and mine wernt even close... I had to learn the new standard... the dog had a VERY good sit BEFORE Force fetch started VERY Solid.. both verbal and whistle sit, with a distraction..

We never had to use a rope when we went to the yard, and started Pile work..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This was her first day Upland training with Mature Rooster Pheasants.. Sit to flush.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX9XrNxO_Vw


Her SIT both verbal and whistle were very solid at 6 months old.. Made life really easy... I was shown,,, that pror to getting help,, I didn't have a clue what SIT meant.. or,, what keeping a high standard in training meant... It took a person with a huge heart, and a LOT of patience to teach me.. before her,, I knew everything,,, and I thought I followed directions to a T..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

She auto sits now on the flush.She has a quick clean sit when running blinds.. Standards, and consistency..
and is a joy to hunt with.. My constant shadow.. in retirement..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

a LOT of consistent repetitions got her there with each training step along the way.. A LOT of repetitions,, and a close experienced watchful eye to proof and critique our work.. Experienced help is a Amatures best friend, and makes life really enjoyable and fun..

A disclaimer.. prior to me getting help. (And I owe the opportunity to receive that help from a notable member of this board) I was a Hunter, who had dogs that could pick up a big splashy mark in the decoys 30 yards away and their blinds were awful.. I used creative ways to get them near where I thought bird was, and then I let the dogs nose take over.. With Hunt testing, I really struggled to pass Junior/Started levels... I was cluless,, and tried the joining clubs, going to training days, getting my head filled with every sort of opinion known to man, that only confused the situation more,, not to mention what the poor dog went through.. Bad news,,.. 

I am no FT'r, (was never my goal,but highly appreciate those dogs)
I quit running hunt tests after we achieved the goals I did set for us.. became Jaded

I am just an occasional hunter.. live in the boonies,. spend a LOT of time with the dog at Dairy queen..  she needed no training for this,,, caught right on..


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

MooseGooser said:


> a LOT of consistent repetitions got her there with each training step along the way.. A LOT of repetitions,, and a close experienced watchful eye to proof and critique our work.. Experienced help is a Amatures best friend, and makes life really enjoyable and fun..
> 
> A disclaimer.. prior to me getting help. (And I owe the opportunity to receive that help from a notable member of this board) I was a Hunter, who had dogs that could pick up a big splashy mark in the decoys 30 yards away and their blinds were awful.. I used creative ways to get them near where I thought bird was, and then I let the dogs nose take over.. With Hunt testing, I really struggled to pass Junior/Started levels... I was cluless,, and tried the joining clubs, going to training days, getting my head filled with every sort of opinion known to man, that only confused the situation more,, not to mention what the poor dog went through.. Bad news,,..
> 
> ...


Your past is an example of my present. You are right opinions are every where. I will just do marks for the next week or so to help continue to build his confidence


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Cutiger04 said:


> Your past is an example of my present. You are right opinions are every where. I will just do marks for the next week or so to help continue to build his confidence


Always a good default plan... You could warm him up, by walking with him on lead (or off) and as you walk, command “Sit” verbally. Keep standard high, and strive for a quick compulsive response.. You can add the whistle after the sit command, same high standard.. When he is very compliant with this walking drill.. try blowing the whistle before you give command.. If you do enough repetitions of this, you will find pretty quick he will sit on whistle . The command both will mean the same thing either whistle or verbal.... 
You Must decide if you are ready and have completed all the necessary steps in program to expect dog to Sit To Pile.. Look at flow chart.. is the dog really proficient and solid with all the prior steps? Is your collar conditioning and Force fetch absolutely solid?? Does the dog respond to all the obedience commands correctly with collar correction/ pressure? Does the dog dive for a bumper at your feet, or if you hold above his head, or a distance away from you when you command fetch? Is the dogs desire defined as compelled to get the bumper in her mouth? ALWAYS?? Many programs include stick fetch, walking fetch in the force fetch step.. I don’t know about Akins method. Do you think these steps are complete??
If so... I started SIT TO PILE with a good foundation of FORCE TO PILE but,, before that, I taught dog just where the pile is (It will be in the exact same place every day) Dog knew exactly where that pile was. In the same spot, same field everyday.. She was allowed to just run to it when sent, and bring a bumper back, I defined the pile by throwing a bumper to it first.. I always sent from a front finish.. It was in the same place every day..
When that was solid,, She was Forced with a stick (Stick to pile) to go to it and retrieve a bumper. More freebee than stick..
When that was solid,, She was forced with the collar (FTP) from a front finish (Sitting in front facing me) and from my side. Majority of sends were from in front of me.. many sends without force to keep attitude up.. I also transitioned the "Fetch" command to" Back." along the way at some point..
Then when that was solid, using same pile location, with big white bumpers (ALWAYS During any pile work).... Along that established line to back pile, I walked the dog at my side, and along that path to back pile.. (My back pile was 100yrds) I would blow the sit whistle and sit the dog. Continue this several times along the way, only making the dog sit as you walk.. no retrieve. when I got within 5 yrds or so of pile I would whistle sit the dog, make her wait a bit, then command Fetch/Back did this for a few days..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

When things are solid with a walking whistle sit along the path to the pile,, I would send her from a bit longer distance from the pile, but far enough so you have room to blow a whistle and have her sit. She should do this because of several days prior repetitions. If you are unsure, you could have a long lead on her to make sure she sits.. I doubt you will need one if you have given enough reps days prior, and uphold a high standard,, AND SHE IS SOLID..Its all about reps and standard.. Gradually keep backing up from pile and before you know it, dog will be running a 100 yrd SIT TO PILE... make sure you have more free sends (No sits) than you do requiring a sit.. (Just like you did on FTP) One sit per send,giving more free bees than sits.. Drill this into his head, spend time at all these steps. DON’T HURRY! Believe it or not, for many dogs this becomes their favorite game. On training days if I feel dog was stressed or attitude is low, I can set a pile out and send and sit her to it a few times (No force) and attitude would improve,.. Its her favorite game..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Insert simple casting (3 handed) between Force fetch and collar conditioning, with program I followed.
So. 
Obedience
Force fetch
simple casting 
collar conditioning
Pile work ( program I followed.)


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

MooseGooser said:


> When things are solid with a walking whistle sit along the path to the pile,, I would send her from a bit longer distance from the pile, but far enough so you have room to blow a whistle and have her sit. She should do this because of several days prior repetitions. If you are unsure, you could have a long lead on her to make sure she sits.. I doubt you will need one if you have given enough reps days prior, and uphold a high standard,, AND SHE IS SOLID..Its all about reps and standard.. Gradually keep backing up from pile and before you know it, dog will be running a 100 yrd SIT TO PILE... make sure you have more free sends (No sits) than you do requiring a sit.. (Just like you did on FTP) One sit per send,giving more free bees than sits.. Drill this into his head, spend time at all these steps. DON’T HURRY! Believe it or not, for many dogs this becomes their favorite game. On training days if I feel dog was stressed or attitude is low, I can set a pile out and send and sit her to it a few times (No force) and attitude would improve,.. Its her favorite game..


Solid post. Need to get my notebook out. I just need to slow down. If he goes into the upcoming season just making marks like he is now I will be happy. It will be his first season now if we could just get some rain to help fill up the ponds.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I am really surprised this thread has gone 6 pages for one of the most simplest things to teach. I mean it really is so simple that I don't even teach it, just start blowing the whistle while teaching something else. Dogs seem to respond to a whistle better than voice commands.
I think we have bombarded the original poster with way too much info for a simple question. He may very well have put the cart before the horse and some sort of guide lines need to be followed but I have always preached don't just blindly follow a "PROGRAM". Think about what you are doing and the results you want then with a little guidance from a "PROGRAM" figure out how to make it work for you. Don't be afraid to think outside the box but do think. We'd still be in the stone age if people didn't think outside the box. I started with the Tri-Tronics book by Jim Dobbs and still use some of it today then went to Lardy's stuff as I learned and progressed. Never did follow all of it exactly just learned the basic drills to teach something and figured out how to make that work for me. That's the easy part. The hard part is really understanding the dog and communicating what you are asking of them. 
There is always more than one way to skin a cat. I really like the Lardy Farmer symposium video and watching the difference in ways of thinking about dog training. Mike is very analytic in his thinking on dog training. Danny is more of an instinctual dog trainer but the one thing they have in common is that they understand dogs and in their own way get results. I personally would be more on the Farmer side of dog training but can learn from both. In the beginning I did mostly follow Lardy's flow chart but over time have made a lot of adjustments to fit what works for me. I have added things like my way of teaching the sit whistle simply by accident and only started doing that about 4 years ago and it has very much streamlined my own training program. Just one less thing to think about. I don't even put any thought into teaching a sit whistle. There are also things in the mainstream training programs that I have deemed unnecessary and have omitted or combined with something else.
Again I am no Mike Lardy or Danny Farmer but have had good success in hunt tests minor stake field trials and now getting some success in the open with only my second dog to run all age stakes but I could train a hunting dog in my sleep. Of course that's just a figure of speech.
My flow chart goes like this.

Formal obedience. with a little collar conditioning.
Force fetch
Then more collar conditioning
Here I must ad the importance of stuff being done in the field while all the yard work is being done which is what I like about Lardy's flow chart.
After this I give them about a month to just tie all of this together in the field without learning something new before I go into advanced training of handling which is a looooong list of stuff. Kind of give them a spring break and have fun but keep them to a standard.


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

I guess it is time to put this one to bed. I will be brushing him up on the basics for the next couple of weeks and go from there. Thanks for all the tips and opinions.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Most of responses were about teaching dog to sit. teaching sit requires a whistle.. he says dog sits on leash, sits on whistle in backyard. He says he sent dog off to be collar conditioned (to commands) and force fetched.. He also curiously said he is just getting ready to "Turn the collar on" .

The question he asked was his dog knows all the above (Give him benefit of doubt) but when the dog gets to the step of SIT TO PILE, the high drive dog runs through the command to the bird.. What does he do??

Some folks directly answered the question with a simple word "Rope"
otheres then chimed in they don't like "Rope"
Others gave recommendations of other programs to follow..

If the dog has been forced to pile (step pror to Sit to pile in his program.. The collar was used to FORCE on the command Back/fetch..
We assume that went well.. (benefit of doubt.

now, dog blows through a whistle command on sit to pile... He has a collar in his hand. His dog has been properly collar condition to that comman (benefit of doubt). Correct Answere is correction with collar, or use a rope to stop him, or a combination of both, ORR decide if Sit standard isn't up to snuff, and go back to basic obedience and review..

But the answer isn't about how to teach sit.. or how easy it is.. he (handler) may agree with you... His dog sits... When sent to pile, a discovery is made that the dog runs through a command... What to do?  Good question IMHO..

What did collar conditioning involve? only low level settings? how/when was button pushed? What did force fetch involve? Did it include walking fetch? stick fetch.collar fetch?? benefit of doubt we assume it did,,but we don't know..

So the question was My dog runs through a whistle sit command on sit to pile.. What do I do? My dog knows sit and sit by whistle, my dog is collar conditioned and forced fetch by experienced people. I am following Akins method..  ​


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

When I got to sit to pile under extream supervision from experience,, My dog sat beautifully. Instantly stopped/Sat! She was facing the pile!  We had to fix this.. things like this are why you run the step! It gives you a chance to fix before moving to the field... I fixed with a here command (toot toot toot) awhistle sit (Nick) whistle sit,,and then a back cast to bumper...

This took a bit until she spun to sit facing me for cast.. It showed up unexpectedly. It didn't happen in simple casting (3 handed).. we fixed it during the step! Its why we run these..

Now, I just about bet, someone will chime in and condemn the use of the collar! Ijust bet.. 

It hard to answer training questions! They get side tracked from all the well meaning differences of opinions.. and end up a cluster,and confusion for the guy who asked..


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Most of responses were about teaching dog to sit. teaching sit requires a whistle.. he says dog sits on leash, sits on whistle in backyard. He says he sent dog off to be collar conditioned (to commands) and force fetched.. He also curiously said he is just getting ready to "Turn the collar on" .
> *
> The question he asked was his dog knows all the above (Give him benefit of doubt) but when the dog gets to the step of SIT TO PILE, the high drive dog runs through the command to the bird.. What does he do??*
> 
> ...






My simple answer to that question would be back up and start over. 
Obedience and CC and FF is all that is needed. No need to confuse things with stuff like stick fetch, walking fetch or force to the pile. I do just a day or two of walking fetch after FF but no more than that and I no longer do force to the pile in a separate lesson. I only force to the pile if I am getting a sluggish response when sending from my side which usually starts after stopping them on a whistle then I will give a back nick back. To me forcing to the pile before T work is putting the cart before the horse. Forcing them to a pile then asking them to stop just doesn't make sense to me. By this phase of training 95 % of the dogs I train want to go to the pile and I have no need to force them but once I start stopping them with the whistle I do get a little anticipation of that whistle which will cause a slow down and that is where I will force a bit on back just showing them the difference between the back command and a whistle sit teaching them not to stop or slow down without the whistle.. Also if I have a dog that just goes on back with no hesitation I don't force to the pile at all.


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

He goes to the pile with no hesitation and he is steady on his marks. He just blows right to the pile when sent because he wants that bumper in his mouth and back to my side as fast as he can. Whistle doesn’t phase him. We have done just marks the past couple of days. With some here on whistle and stopping him in route to me.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I bet a rope would phase him. Nothing like physical force working in the opposite direction an object is traveling.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This paragraph taken from a previous post of mine..


Then when that was solid, using same pile location, with big white bumpers (ALWAYS During any pile work).... Along that established line to back pile, I walked the dog at my side, and along that path to back pile.. (My back pile was 100yrds) I would blow the sit whistle and sit the dog. Continue this several times along the way, only making the dog sit as you walk.. no retrieve. when I got within 5 yrds or so of pile I would whistle sit the dog, make her wait a bit, then command Fetch/Back did this for a few days..

So, have dog on leash. Throw a bumper to the pile,,, Walk dog on leash at heel.. along that walk to pile, blow whistle.. will dog sit promptly? If the dog doesn't sit promptly, do you sit, nick. sit? Sit , Nick, sit,, means blow whistle, nick with collar button, blow whistle..

Don't you have a collar transmitter in your hand?? Is the dogs collar turned on?? You stated someone else collar conditioned dog to all obedience commands.. You also stated the dog has been forced fetched.. I would FIRST (before collar,) use the leash, or rope to enforce the sit command..
​


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

More importantly... Are you really following Akins program? Have you followed his flow chart? has the dog profieciently completed each step of that flow chart in front of (prior) to SIT TO PILE ?? You have been vague about answering these questions.. all you have said is you have followed Akin to a T.. Does that mean, each step prior to Sit to pile??.. Can you take a picture of Akins flow chart for us and post it??


Flow chart means order of operations (Steps)


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I bet a rope would phase him. Nothing like physical force working in the opposite direction an object is traveling.


 A LEASH is a short rope,, and dog is immediately in your vicinity.. I agree with Tobias.... Put the dog on a leash ,,, throw a bumper to pile,, walk the dog at heel towards pile,, blow a whistle.. will dog immediately sit ??


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

Just spent this evening stopping him on the way to place. Randomly stopping him. It worked well. I will be doing this along with some marks for the next week or until it is perfect. Akin starts the whistle with fun bumpers and blowing the whistle. Once he sits bumper is thrown. Then he goes to casting. Blow whistle send the dog left and right back overs then adding right and left overs. Then he starts force to pile and when the distance is out to 75 yards he then tries to get a stop with the whistle. Once this happens he adds a random stop. May only stop the dog once during a session. 

Thanks for the tips but we have begun beating a dead horse.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

From the horses mouth.. a drill Akins uses.. has your dog been drilled like this? 



https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...7CE8739F0D4E39F071CB7CE8739F0D4E&&FORM=VRDGAR

Not a method I use,,,, but...


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## Cutiger04 (Aug 11, 2019)

MooseGooser said:


> From the horses mouth.. a drill Akins uses.. has your dog been drilled like this?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...7CE8739F0D4E39F071CB7CE8739F0D4E&&FORM=VRDGAR


Yes that’s how we started sitting on the whistle.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Does he show this on a written chart??? Can you show us that?? If you follow his program,, what directs you to next step?

Is there a flow chart? an order of operations..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I this an example of what he teaches as far as collar conditioning in his program? has you dog been collar conditioned like this?


https://youtu.be/7jmuFLYpsoY


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> ...
> A LEASH is a short rope,,?


I need that as a bumper sticker!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> I need that as a bumper sticker!


HAHAHAHA!!!!!! And I have a short Tab...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This is a little father along than basic obedience. But, If you look in past videos I posted a 4 month old puppy is sitting through a bumper being thrown..

This video talks about sitting, and whiste sit. It also shows in discussion the use of collar (Collar conditioning) and the timming involved.. This step is WAY BEFORE you ask a dog to SIT to pile after,, pay attention to next comment... FORCE to a pile.. The reason I FORCE to a pile is so dog understands when I say "Back" He MUST absolutely MUST move away from me.... He MUST GO! 
After pile work..He ends up being trained with collar, to GO ,Stop, ,Come..







<span style="font-family: Verdana"><span style="font-family: Verdana"><span style="font-family: Verdana"><strong><em><u><sub><sup>


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

So,to me,,when I say basic obedience... steps like the above video is what I teach.. I teach sit, transition in whiste,and proof with a distraction (hey hey hey throw for example) then send, and then blow a whistle..( verbal sit and whistle mean the same thing). This has to be SOLID before I move on. Its basic obedience … first step in program I follow.. When I collar condition,, I collar to sit AND whistle,, (and heel and here) as shown in video, with timing being correct as Bill discusses.. My program I follow isn't Hillmann. Its very similar to Lardy, but different.. No matter what program I might follow though,, the basic sit whistle teaching would be much like video above..

P.S. I don't necessarily use a very low collar setting.. I find the appropriate setting based on reaction of dog.. I don't nag with the collar. I find a level that gets the point across,, and thats my setting..

Akin uses a low intensity collar( based on his videos..) with Many many many many reps.. he says so,, if you search his videos... I don't know how he force fetches.... I do know, I have seen dogs he has trained, and have watched a lot of dogs run trained similarly.. and they run beautifully..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Per above if at sit to pile,my dog tried to run thru the whistle,, I have tools in my pocket to enforce the breech of the command, and will use them. I am confident the dog understands the pressure before I use it..


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

sit on whistle is easy. try to make them sit through a cookie tossing drill. break every time.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

So,when OP says we are beating a dead horse.. When he states Quote: Akin starts the whistle with fun bumpers and blowing the whistle. Once he sits bumper is thrown."(End of quote)

I hope he sees the difference with the video above. You also, have to send the dog, and blow a whistle,and dog has to sit! Also, OP says he is just going to throw marks for a few days.. That's good!,, But,, What is your sit standard when the dog watches birds thrown in the field fom the line? Is your standard consistent? Sit means sit..


For a good read.. the OP should enter into the search function of RTF " Sit means sit Ted Shih"...…. Read that thread...

So when folks say teaching sit is easy.. There is more to it than the dogs butt on the ground.. I didn't know what sit meant until some great folks took me to the wood shed and explained it to me... When those folks did that,, that was when things changed for the better.. They wernt particularly discreet and nice about it either.. luckily,, folks took the time to help..

There is a reason for my Avatar!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

You know you have problems when 1 in your training group tells you "The only time your dog has a good sit is when you say "Back"...


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I bet a rope would phase him. Nothing like physical force working in the opposite direction an object is traveling.





True, but it should not be necessary. I just cannot believe how complicated this has become. Even the rope over complicates the matter. To me a rope is more of a distraction than a tool. Too many people over complicate the whole training process especially for a gun dog. It just blows my mind. If I have said it once I have said it a thousand time.....
*​I HATE ROPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> True, but it should not be necessary. I just cannot believe how complicated this has become. Even the rope over complicates the matter. To me a rope is more of a distraction than a tool. Too many people over complicate the whole training process especially for a gun dog. It just blows my mind. If I have said it once I have said it a thousand time.....
> *​I HATE ROPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


Me too but occasionally it is the best solution and in the case of my most recent one better have a big strong person on the rope


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Steve Shaver said:


> True, but it should not be necessary. I just cannot believe how complicated this has become. Even the rope over complicates the matter. To me a rope is more of a distraction than a tool. Too many people over complicate the whole training process especially for a gun dog. It just blows my mind. If I have said it once I have said it a thousand time.....
> *​I HATE ROPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


Paging Ken Bora.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

EdA said:


> Me too but occasionally it is the best solution and in the case of my most recent one better have a big strong person on the rope


And wear gloves!!


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

One turn around a stake driven deep (at least 16"), would be my advice. Oh yeah, and what Nate said! -Paul


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

paul young said:


> One turn around a stake driven deep (at least 16"), would be my advice. Oh yeah, and what Nate said! -Paul


I would be concerned about possible neck injuries. I would prefer using more repetition at close range rather than heavy force.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

bjoiner said:


> I would be concerned about possible neck injuries. I would prefer using more repetition at close range rather than heavy force.


I agree, thought that kind of training went away along with the bull whips, slingshots and bird shot.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I agree with Bubba, I would never hard tie the rope. A person can follow with the rope which is attached to a pinch collar on the dog so the places to stop the dog are unlimited.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> I agree, thought that kind of training went away along with the bull whips, slingshots and bird shot.


anyone who has ever used a rope to stop a dog knows you don't stop them like they hit a brick wall. Also - you don't let them get 50 yd either. (who would want to use a rope that long? LOL)

The mechanics are easily taught at the 20 to 30 yd distance, until e collar can be overlaid and replace the rope. 

The 'old' Farmer/Aycock basics video has a very good description and example of proper use of a rope to teach sit to the whistle... only thing I change is to a flat buckle collar (rather than choke chain)... I am sure EdA has seen this one before.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Tobias said:


> anyone who has ever used a rope to stop a dog knows you don't stop them like they hit a brick wall.


I would think so but apparently not.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Tobias said:


> anyone who has ever used a rope to stop a dog knows you don't stop them like they hit a brick wall...


Wanna bet, Tobi? Be a little naive to think you wouldn't - if your intent is to get the message across, shall we say, instantly.

But as Bubba said - especially now that my wedge-busting mentality is a thing of the past - the preferred method is more repetitions at much shorter (like at your side or a fourth-down food bowl's length away from paydirt) distances.

Got a kick out of my Lean Mac through and through yearling yesterday as I was leading her away from the line at training when somebody else in the group was running a blind through cut corn. They must've been blown the whistle 26 times over 100 yards and on the 100 feet of heeling back to my truck, the yearling turned around all 26 times at the sound of it.

MG


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Well - I guess I am not willing to risk injury to a dog and it depends on the dog. I know I wouldn't like to be running 25mph and all of sudden have my head and neck yanked to an instant stop. Don't think my body would either... to each or his own.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

So you make the decision from the sugestion to tie the udder end of yer rope to a post and send the dog.. the dog comes to end of rope, an flips over backards.. Ya do this nonsense a couple a times..

They the next time you send,, he donts GO!!!.. What Ya gonna do now genius?? Ya now have two Major problems.. 

The precceding step, ya taught him he MUST GO (FTP),, Then in yer decision makin skills,, in the next step,, you made him think if he goes he is gonna break his neck.. Brilliant!!!


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

MooseGooser said:


> So you make the decision from the sugestion to tie the udder end of yer rope to a post and send the dog.. the dog comes to end of rope, an flips over backards.. Ya do this nonsense a couple a times..
> 
> They the next time you send,, he donts GO!!!.. What Ya gonna do now genius?? Ya now have two Major problems..


Double down, burn him off the line then burn to sit. Repeat until he is afraid to even come out of the crate and call him a washout.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> So you make the decision from the sugestion to tie the udder end of yer rope to a post and send the dog.. the dog comes to end of rope, an flips over backards.. Ya do this nonsense a couple a times..
> 
> They the next time you send,, he donts GO!!!.. What Ya gonna do now genius?? Ya now have two Major problems..
> 
> The precceding step, ya taught him he MUST GO (FTP),, Then in yer decision makin skills,, in the next step,, you made him think if he goes he is gonna break his neck.. Brilliant!!!


Not _*quite*_ how it works - entails little more finesse and timing and perception (know your dog) and "personal involvement" (rope in gloved hand as you follow behind the dog - not tied to a post). 

Now come on and 'fess up: You've just about written your own genius stop-to-the-whistle bible apropos this thread alone - are you reaching into your own subconscious to come up with justification for what you did or didn't do with past dogs you've trained by going on so vehemently and at such length? 

MG


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Not _*quite*_ how it works - entails little more finesse and timing and perception (know your dog) and "personal involvement" (rope in gloved hand as you follow behind the dog -* not tied to a post*).
> 
> Now come on and 'fess up: You've just about written your own genius stop-to-the-whistle bible apropos this thread alone - are you reaching into your own subconscious to come up with justification for what you did or didn't do with past dogs you've trained by going on so vehemently and at such length?
> 
> MG


I was responding directly to the remark made about tying dog to a post driven at least 16" into ground.. #83


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

MooseGooser said:


> I was responding directly to the remark made about tying dog to a post driven at least 16" into ground.. #83


Paul wasn't referring to actually tying the rope to the post.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Dog in link below is on 3rd day of stopping in route to the pile. First two days were up a bit closer, this is about 80 yds. Prior to last Thursday she had never heard a sit whistle other than when doing 3 handed casting. She is stopping just fine at this stage but with a little bit of a loop to the right and as soon as she understands to drive to the pile and only stops on the whistle I will start adding a little collar pressure for a quicker sharper sit. No rope no prior teaching a sit whistle.
https://youtu.be/J7JTXRA1Ht0


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

No, I wasn't. The turn around the stake is so that you can slow the dog a bit before you stop him. You are holding the rope behind the stake with gloves on. Also, anytime I have done this, or seen it done, a SHOCK ABSORBER was tied into the line about 10' behind the dog. You do this with a piece of high strength Bungee. The rope at that point looks like a D, where the bungee is straight and the rope is a semicircle. As the bungee comes tight the rope straightens out. Much easier on the dog.

And Gooser, I have never had one of my dogs 'no go' or even a 'slow go'. -Paul


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I have used this method before too Paul. Rope looped around a pole buried in concrete. Long rope. Dog attached to rope. Rope is looped around pole. You are holding other end of rope. As dog goes, rope slides through your gloved hand, rope slides around pole. When stopping tightened your grip on rope. I used this to stop a dog coming to me on sit command or whistle.
There is no more danger to the dog using this method than just letting the rope slide through you hand. It just gives you a little more control and not get jerked around so much.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Paul..

Well a LOT of folks in the thread took it as thats what you were implying.. Including me.. #84. #85 #86 #88 #90.

And I like Steve didn't have to resort to a rope at pile work..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I hesitate a bit by telling this story.. I will tame it down a bit so its more presentable for a public forum. I am embarrassed I was involved..

The dog I had before my present dog,was a very well bred female, FT pedigree, lots of go.
To make a long story a bit shorter, because of my inexperience, she developed a bad habit of creeping, and toe tapping at the line when running marks. Looking back, it was all my fault. It expanded into control issues with her running very simple HT blinds.. Ignoring whistles, casts ect…

I belonged to a local ht club. They had training days, and many members saw the wheels come off with this dog of mine.. One day I attended a club training day.. there was a question asked of me about my dogs creeping forward during marking. The group talked about it a bit and I ran some marks with her.. Sure enough, bad creep,, foot pumping, wookie groan waiting to be released.. Her blinds were also not good..

Near the end of the day, a couple a three of the” more experienced” of the group offered to stick around a bit after the rest of attendees left, and they would help me with some suggestions to our problem..
They asked me if one of them could run my dog. I said sure! Fine with me.. They said they were going to attach some ropes to her and show me a way to correct for the forward movement of her creep.. (remember short version of disturbing story) They said it had to be communicated to the dog, that the forward movement of the dog was the problem she had to stop. They hooked ropes in a way that they could pull her forward when the marks were thrown, then one of the others, took a stick across her front legs REALLY hard.. She started yelping and they continued to “Swat”her as they drug her forward.. She yelped really loud,, and held her leg up.. They stopped..

Dog was visibly hurt. Limping badly… They told me this was the only thing that would “Fix” the problem.She limped for two days afterwards,, and would freeze if I put a leash on her. She would not walk with me..

To this day,, I am MORTIFIED I stood back and let “EXPERIENCED” guys beat my dog (Mildly put). I stood there and watched, allowing it to happen! These guys were experts right?? They had great running dogs right???
That was the day that I changed.. I decided to try somehow to get real help with the dog,but didn’t have a clue as to how to approach folks..

I never went to another training day with that club. I really only trained by myself.. I was a member of this board at the time. A well known member here offered to see if I could come watch their FT group.. That person didn’t know what had happened to my dog..

I attended some training days with that group.. I remeber the second time I attended the pro asked if it would be possible for the Pro to run the dog. I sat with the person who made it so I could attend,on the front seat of a 4 wheeler and watched.. I remember him saying to me. Your dog wont sit, cause you don’t make her… I had to swallow hard..I thought I was gonna see a repeat of what my dog got before at that Hunt test CLUB training day… I witnessed the total opposite.. 

Again long story.. It took awhile to “Fix” the dog..Very little pressure.. More work on not sending if she didn’t sit still..It took a ton of time to fix ME.. Way more time was spent on me.. More work on me consistently upholding a sit standard at the line.. It finally came to a point about 2 years later, where We felt I could run a senior level hunt test. Dog was actually doing respectable work, and I was confident we could pass..
One morning before I left to train at Pros, I noticed the dog didn’t feel well. I made the hour and a half drive, and when I got there the dog wouldn’t get out of the truck. Straight back home and to the vet.. They x rayed and found cancer in her lungs.. She was running on 50% or less capacity.. She was dead 4 days later..

A structured program with the supervision of a PRO, made the dog I have now a pleasure and fun experience.. Training by Following steps, making sure those steps were solid before moving on to next,made it relatively easy for a guy who had dogs before and struggled to pass Junior level tests. I was that Hunter,, who had splash rocks in his pocket just in case… It only took a short period of time, and relatively few tests, to pass HRC Finished tests,,and AKC master tests..

I can not thank that Pro enough. That pros effort and patience with me, changed my life. Changed it way more than just the dog.. I would say the pros name, but I have been chastised before about talking about the topic..

After we attained the Titles of HRCH and Master Hunter,, I quit running tests.. Some pretty incredulous things were said… I am retired now, dog too, but we train often, and I hunt occasionally.. She is my constant shadow..

My advice to the OP!!!! work diligently at finding real,,,, experienced help…. Go offer to throw birds for a reputable pro. Ask if He/she will let you day train with them.. It’s the easy road.. Once you have a dog or two under your belt, and a good understanding of some process/ program to follow and why you are following it.. You will be in a better position to alter steps,/change methods.. The Internet is a horrible place to ask questions..
I am a Toolmaker by trade. Served two apprenticeships.. 35 years of experience. Never unemployed.. Training a dog is the hardest thing I have ever attempted.. ...


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I hesitate a bit by telling this story.. I will tame it down a bit so its more presentable for a public forum. I am embarrassed I was involved..
> 
> The dog I had before my present dog,was a very well bred female, FT pedigree, lots of go.
> To make a long story a bit shorter, because of my inexperience, she developed a bad habit of creeping, and toe tapping at the line when running marks. Looking back, it was all my fault. It expanded into control issues with her running very simple HT blinds.. Ignoring whistles, casts ect…
> ...





Really? Hardest thing I have ever attempted is to train people to train a dog.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Steve, please send me your phone #. I have not received your messages here. My # is: (575) 770-0305.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

MooseGooser said:


> Near the end of the day, a couple a three of the” more experienced” of the group offered to stick around a bit after the rest of attendees left, and they would help me with some suggestions to our problem..
> ..


I was in a similar situation (though not my dog).. had been training in an area often used by local 'trainers'... couple of guys showed up with a dog they were trying to 'steady' for an upcoming test. They asked if I would help.. I was VERY new to hunt test training - might have been my first or second year - so I was curious to see what their 'fix' was... It was a very similar method to what you describe (I believe without the hitting of the legs) and very harsh on the dog. Of course it was not the dog's fault. It was the owner/trainer's fault for not actually training his dog - which was an extremely high powered dog. And, wouldn't you know it, that day's training did nothing to 'fix' the dog's issues.. It did open my eyes to the type of trainer I didn't want to be(come), however.

New trainers should be very cautious about handing their dog over to people for 'fixing'.... While perhaps very well intentioned, I would guess most of these folks probably only know about these types of 'set ups' because they failed to train their own dogs properly and then resorted to very physical methods to attempt a fix.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Tobias said:


> New trainers should be very cautious about handing their dog over to people for 'fixing'.... While perhaps very well intentioned, I would guess most of these folks probably only know about these types of 'set ups' because they failed to train their own dogs properly and then resorted to very physical methods to attempt a fix.


Ask some of our more knowledgeable confreres on here about pointing dog trainers' use of the Whoa post - if you want to talk about invoking a *medical fix* for "very physical methods" of training.

The tautest rope on the planet to whistle-stop a retriever doesn't hold a candle to dislocating a dog's hindquarters because it wasn't steady on point...

MG


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Tobias said:


> New trainers should be very cautious about handing their dog over to people for 'fixing'.... While perhaps very well intentioned, I would guess most of these folks probably only know about these types of 'set ups' because they failed to train their own dogs properly and then resorted to very physical methods to attempt a fix.


and the origina lposter should be cautious about simplistic sentences that involve ropes and stakes,,,and answers that are not directly in line with the program they,,, (original poster),,, has said they are following... This includes MY answeres that don't follow AKINS program....

The most direct,Honest answer to OP's question,, is MAKE A PHONE CALL TO AKIN!! Woild have only taken 1 post! ,, but sadly,, that aint the way it works..


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

crackerd said:


> Ask some of our more knowledgeable confreres on here about pointing dog trainers' use of the Whoa post - if you want to talk about invoking a *medical fix* for "very physical methods" of training.
> 
> The tautest rope on the planet to whistle-stop a retriever doesn't hold a candle to dislocating a dog's hindquarters because it wasn't steady on point...
> 
> MG


I'm right in the middle of bird dog trial heaven. My dad was a vet for many pro trainers and plantations in this area. Not once in my life did I ever see injuries from a whoa post. I would imagine it is similar to the retriever world. Good trainers train good dogs without going to extremes, especially with the modern day methods. Old school trainers reverted to harsher methods.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

bjoiner said:


> I'm right in the middle of bird dog trial heaven. My dad was a vet for many pro trainers and plantations in this area. *Not once in my life did I ever see injuries from a whoa post. I would imagine it is similar to the retriever world. Good trainers train good dogs without going to extremes, especially with the modern day methods. Old school trainers reverted to harsher methods.*


And I be talkin' 'bout old school trainers and old-school whoa post - without modern-day hands holding the rope or check cord. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't "see" injuries caused by a whoa post, nor "see" a broken neck or jammed vetebrae caused by the old-school rope flip of a retriever being "taught" the whistle stop after having been forced to pile.

MG


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