# FC/AFC Studs with excellent marking and drive to and from the drop



## LabFan (Dec 11, 2010)

I am looking for names of stud dogs that are great at marking and the drive to and from the bird. I believe some of the National Champions are great at marking, but more methodical retrievers. What about those that charge to the bird or blind and return with equal zeal? I have seen FC-NAF Cut A Lean Grade run and he might well fit this description. Any others? They can be retired, like FC-AFC HRCH Taylorlab Downtown DUSTY Brown MH or deceased (possibly FC-AFC Yellowstone'S TNT Explosion?) Thanks.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

LF,
The bitch plays such an intrical part of any breeding. It's tough to answer. Put a hard going sire with a hard going bitch, and you will potentially have some driven pups. Still not a given. Genetics IS a weird thing. 

BTW: I can tell you that Grady is in fact one of the hardest goers I've ever seen.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Merlyn is balls to the wall, and my dog out of him is full speed all the time both coming and going.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

My YLM is by Dusty, and he is a very hard charger out and back, marks or blinds, land and water. Great working attitude, huge drive and desire, no quit in him. Excellent marking dog, and a great hunting dog upland or waterfowl. As a bonus, he has a gentle personality and is a perfect, mellow house dog. I will have a very hard time finding another dog like him someday!


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## Sniper (Dec 13, 2005)

pupaloo said:


> My YLM is by Dusty, and he is a very hard charger out and back, marks or blinds, land and water. Great working attitude, huge drive and desire, no quit in him. Excellent marking dog, and a great hunting dog upland or waterfowl. As a bonus, he has a gentle personality and is a perfect, mellow house dog. I will have a very hard time finding another dog like him someday!



Does that mean you want to keep him?


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## LabFan (Dec 11, 2010)

David Maddox said:


> LF,
> The bitch plays such an intrical part of any breeding. It's tough to answer. Put a hard going sire with a hard going bitch, and you will potentially have some driven pups. Still not a given. Genetics IS a weird thing.
> 
> BTW: I can tell you that Grady is in fact one of the hardest goers I've ever seen.


David --- Thank you for you input. I do understand the bitch's contributions. If I have a hard driving bitch and want to preserve that attitude I want to breed to a hard driving male. If I want to temper that behavior I will want to avoid that male. And if I have a mild mannered bitch I want to add drive with a hard charging male. In my case I want the hard driving puppy and so am considering who the stud should be.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Hey LF-

I have 2 hard driving FCs. Not only were they bred they way, they were trained that way. Some of the more "methodical" retrievers you may see out there have different trainers, who train for a more methodical dog, if you will. They are easier to handle. One second that you are asleep at the wheel with a barn-burner gets you going home sooner rather than later. So, you can't just judge by what you see in the field.

For what it's worth, Boo is a very hard charging dog... Willie was a hard charger in his younger days - - haven't had the pleasure to watch him run recently. 

Just throwing the consideration of training out there to consider...


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## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

pupaloo said:


> My YLM is by Dusty, and he is a very hard charger out and back, marks or blinds, land and water. Great working attitude, huge drive and desire, no quit in him. Excellent marking dog, and a great hunting dog upland or waterfowl. As a bonus, he has a gentle personality and is a perfect, mellow house dog. I will have a very hard time finding another dog like him someday!


You could be describing my Dusty male! Turns 7 this month and still has style to spare!


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## LabFan (Dec 11, 2010)

JusticeDog said:


> Hey LF-
> 
> I have 2 hard driving FCs. Not only were they bred they way, they were trained that way. Some of the more "methodical" retrievers you may see out there have different trainers, who train for a more methodical dog, if you will. They are easier to handle. One second that you are asleep at the wheel with a barn-burner gets you going home sooner rather than later. So, you can't just judge by what you see in the field.
> 
> ...


Thank you,
I did not know you could suppress a hard charging dog with training. Is this commonly done?

Which Willie are you referring to? 
08 NFC TWO RIVERS LUCKY WILLIE ?


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## Lee Jones (Mar 19, 2011)

I always thought Shaq (FC AFC Wood River's Franchise) was, but just my opinion.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

We bred a nice "thinker" bitch (Stepper/Super Tanker dam) with a lot of desire/moderate pace, to Cosmo. The breeding produced about half "firebreathers" with sense, and the other half had the dam's pace with obvious smarts (3-FCs)

We then bred one of those "HOT" MH-Cosmo bitches to Shaq and had about the same; half "firebreathers" and the other have were more "thinker" types that had what I would consider a nice pace. Go figure.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

LabFan said:


> David --- Thank you for you input. I do understand the bitch's contributions. If I have a hard driving bitch and want to preserve that attitude I want to breed to a hard driving male. If I want to temper that behavior I will want to avoid that male. And if I have a mild mannered bitch I want to add drive with a hard charging male. In my case I want the hard driving puppy and so am considering who the stud should be.


Before putting a balls to the wall with a hard driven female, think also about the people you will sell the rest of the puppies to. 

I would read this thread and you can see the problems that can happen to newby trainers on their first dog. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81708
plus some of us prefer the methodical dog that is a team player.I've seen balls to walls and don't know where they are going


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

LabFan said:


> Thank you,
> I did not know you could suppress a hard charging dog with training. Is this commonly done?
> 
> Which Willie are you referring to?
> 08 NFC TWO RIVERS LUCKY WILLIE ?


Is it commonly done..... yes, with some trainers. It's their "style" so to speak..... 


And yes, that's the Willie I was referring to.............


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Before putting a balls to the wall with a hard driven female, think also about the people you will sell the rest of the puppies to.
> 
> I would read this thread and you can see the problems that can happen to newby trainers on their first dog. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81708
> plus some of us prefer the methodical dog that is a team player.*I've seen balls to walls and don't know where they are going*





Nancy makes an excellent point. You need brains to go with a balls to the wall kind of dog.... otherwise, all you have is speed.....


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## LabFan (Dec 11, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> Before putting a balls to the wall with a hard driven female, think also about the people you will sell the rest of the puppies to.
> 
> I would read this thread and you can see the problems that can happen to newby trainers on their first dog. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81708
> plus some of us prefer the methodical dog that is a team player.I've seen balls to walls and don't know where they are going



Nancy, I am not thinking of over-the-top uncontrollable drive. I am thinking of a steady sit at the line, careful marking, followed by fast movement for the retrieve. I suspect on the average the hot-to-trot dogs don't title easily. Any other studs that fit this description? What about Chopper or Pow or...?


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Before putting a balls to the wall with a hard driven female, think also about the people you will sell the rest of the puppies to.
> 
> I would read this thread and you can see the problems that can happen to newby trainers on their first dog. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81708
> plus some of us prefer the methodical dog that is a team player.I've seen balls to walls and don't know where they are going


Field trials are not timed performance events. I would rather own or breed to a FC-AFC with the quality of sagacity...that highly ellusive intelligence that allows problem solving during a trial which comes from their natural intelligence and remarkable training with the right pro. I wish I could find the article published a few years ago describing sagacity in retrievers...I'll take a retriever with marking ability, sagacity, team player, and methodical over "balls to the wall" desire and drive any day as part of the overall package.  And finding the bitch line that produces those traits is equally as important to me. That's the retriever of my dreams when I retire in a few years and finally have the time to play the white coat game...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Stud has nothing to do with this. Its all in the bitch....any old stud will do....

/Paul


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Stud has nothing to do with this. Its all in the bitch....any old stud will do....
> 
> /Paul


There's nothing wrong with a slow stud. The old slow but steady Chery over the Ferrari. Sigh, back to the taxes.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

LabFan said:


> Nancy, I am not thinking of over-the-top uncontrollable drive. I am thinking of a steady sit at the line, careful marking, followed by fast movement for the retrieve. I suspect on the average the hot-to-trot dogs don't title easily. Any other studs that fit this description? What about Chopper or Pow or...?


I think most titled dogs would fit that description unless they are older or have been screwed down too tight.


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

As stated, the bitch!! is a very important part of a hard driving retriever with that said, I would look at a Cosmo breeding!! I'm very happy with my Cosmo son. 
Dave Hare


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## LabFan (Dec 11, 2010)

BTW: I can tell you that Grady is in fact one of the hardest goers I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]

And Grady is very successful and so are his pups. Any other studs like him; hard going and in control with great marking skills that pass these characteristics on to his get?


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

My brother and I also own a Grady son that is VERY nice. He is a really nice combo of drive and smarts. Sire and dam are similar. I saw Grady here in Montgomery, TX compete in the 2008 Nationals and thought "I've gotta have one of those!!!" a month later we bought a Grady pup from RTFer Chad Cox. Nice dog. Will MH this spring. If we had had any water for HTs this fall he would have MHd at 2.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> Before putting a balls to the wall with a hard driven female, think also about the people you will sell the rest of the puppies to.
> 
> I would read this thread and you can see the problems that can happen to newby trainers on their first dog. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81708
> plus some of us prefer the methodical dog that is a team player.I've seen balls to walls and don't know where they are going


X2 People may "think" they want hell on wheels when they are anything but capable of dealing with it.

Angie


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## Lee Jones (Mar 19, 2011)

Grady is a HARD goer. I'm waiting on a pup from a breeding done three weeks ago with CNAFC, FC, AFC, CFC, CAFC Moonstones Hug and Moochie. Can't wait!


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I have a Chopper dog. From what I know, his get are very hard charging, extremely athletic, and high maintenance. They are a thing of beauty if you can control them. But I don't know if that is an option any longer.

I have a little Willie puppy. She is only 17 weeks, but I would already put her in the hard charging category. Seems level headed though.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Angie B said:


> People may "think" they want hell on wheels when they are anything but capable of dealing with it.
> Angie


I agree with you, Angie. While we want style -- and style is important -- some folks equate style to hell on wheels. The problem is, these same folks may very likely be unable to train the dog that is hell on wheels and are also incapable of keeping them under control.

Before seeking a potential fire breather, they should consider talking to the folks who have one. 

I am not saying I condone plodders. I don't. Simply hard to watch them. I look for the happy medium. Desire and style, good drive, but without being hell on wheels. 

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

LabFan said:


> I am looking for names of stud dogs that are great at marking and the drive to and from the bird. I believe some of the National Champions are great at marking, but more methodical retrievers. What about those that charge to the bird or blind and return with equal zeal?


I think you need to consider the ages of the dogs who run in the National Amateur and the National Open. 

In 2011 the winner of the National Open was a 3 year old. Very unusual for such a young dog to qualify, to be a finalist, and to win it. A 3-year old better have some drive and style.

I think I read somewhere that the average age of the National entries is 6 or 7 years. There are some who are running Nationals at age 9 years +. Those older dogs are going to be slower and perhaps seem somewhat methodical to you. 

So consider the age of the dog that seems to be methodical to you. They are not going to be running hell bent for election like a 3 year old.

Helen


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## BWCA Labs Margo Penke (Jan 20, 2010)

I recommend FC AFC Carbons Blue Pursuit, if your bitch qualifies as a mate to him.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Angie B said:


> X2 People may "think" they want hell on wheels when they are anything but capable of dealing with it.
> 
> Angie



Lump me into that group, I thought I liked the idea of the "next Cosmo"...I've had enough of "balls to the walls" - I want a level head with high drive/desire with a heavy dose of tractability and marking skills to make you drool!

Lainee


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

FOM;9325 I thought I liked the idea of the "next Cosmo"...I've had enough of "balls to the walls" Lainee[/QUOTE said:


> I think a little Cosmo can go a long way. While I like to see him in pedigrees about 4 generations back -- I want to see him only once. Every now and then I see someone say that they have doubled up on Cosmo. Sure makes me scratch my head over their breeding decision. While I never saw Cosmo run, I have heard plenty of stories -- and it is those stories about Cosmo which have given him the reputation of throwing the fire breathers, the out of control, the vocals. Not all of the time, of course, but there are enough stories through the passing of years about his get to his earning the reputation.
> 
> Chopper? I saw Chopper run plenty of times. I don't recall he had a Cosmo type personality, but he has earned a Cosmo-like reputation for throwing some fire breathers and some vocals no matter who the bitch was. To get the talent, I guess you have to take your chances and hope you get the talent without getting the fire breathers and the vocals.
> 
> ...


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

All of my Cosmo pups that I've kept up with have been quiet. I have 2 buddies that have bred their bitches to Cosmo and not one of those pups has vocal issues. Cosmo does not automatically mean vocal.


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## Larry Thompson1 (Apr 19, 2011)

FC Drakes Bay parting of the seas (Moses) is out of cosmo and he is not vocal and very much under control. Hard going? yes but every bit a team player. I hope to breed my Pow bitch to him next year. The pedigree's seem to match up well. I will keep a pup out of that litter.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> All of my Cosmo pups that I've kept up with have been quiet. I have 2 buddies that have bred their bitches to Cosmo and not one of those pups has vocal issues. Cosmo does not automatically mean vocal.


*38* titled offspring speaks for itself.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

ltrollin said:


> FC Drakes Bay parting of the seas (Moses) is out of cosmo and he is not vocal and very much under control. Hard going? yes but every bit a team player. I hope to breed my Pow bitch to him next year. The pedigree's seem to match up well. I will keep a pup out of that litter.


That should be a nice breeding. I like Moses. He is a marking fool and one of those few young national finalist this year. Bill said he is breeding him for the first time in a week or so. I will be curious to see what he throws.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> *38* titled offspring speaks for itself.


Don't misunderstand what I was saying...I'm not knocking Cosmo himself, I just don't want one like him, I don't think my heart could take what I've been told about him...I would get so frazzled at the line standing next to a dog like him...I prefer dogs with desire like he had but in a more controlled, level headed, team player temperament.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Angie B said:


> People may "think" they want hell on wheels when they are anything but capable of dealing with it.


The "Steve Martin" dogs - Wild and Crazy Guys - Are fun to watch, not so fun to run.

Give me a great marking Steady Eddie any day

Ted


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

FOM said:


> Don't misunderstand what I was saying...I'm not knocking Cosmo himself, I just don't want one like him, I don't think my heart could take what I've been told about him...I would get so frazzled at the line standing next to a dog like him...I prefer dogs with desire like he had but in a more controlled, level headed, team player temperament.


This place needs a like button.

I'm with Ted and Lainee.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> There's nothing wrong with a slow stud. The old slow but steady Chery over the Ferrari. Sigh, back to the taxes.


Harley was not a "ground pounder" but when bred to Tank bitches, WOW!


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

FOM said:


> Don't misunderstand what I was saying...I'm not knocking Cosmo himself, I just don't want one like him, I don't think my heart could take what I've been told about him...I would get so frazzled at the line standing next to a dog like him...I prefer dogs with desire like he had but in a more controlled, level headed, team player temperament.


I had someone tell tell me once..."I love watching your boy run but I would never want to own a dog like yours."


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

bjoiner said:


> That should be a nice breeding. I like Moses. He is a marking fool and one of those few young national finalist this year. Bill said he is breeding him for the first time in a week or so. I will be curious to see what he throws.


Wayne Curtis told me Moses was the complete package.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> The "Steve Martin" dogs - Wild and Crazy Guys - Are fun to watch, not so fun to run.
> 
> Give me a great marking Steady Eddie any day
> 
> Ted


"Right on, Right on, Right on" so say's Flip Wilson...

Angie


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i hear it said often, "i had/have a *real firebreather*, boy did i/do i love that dog!" when i hear that i think this person either: 

*a.* confused a nice dog with a firebreather or 

*b.* has a memory softened by time or 

*c.* is trying to sell me a dog


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

roseberry said:


> i hear it said often, "i had/have a *real firebreather*, boy did i/do i love that dog!" when i hear that i think this person either:
> 
> *a.* confused a nice dog with a firebreather or
> 
> ...


Or actually has one that is well-trained and enjoys what they have.  There is nothing sweeter than style and control.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

roseberry said:


> i hear it said often, "i had/have a *real firebreather*, boy did i/do i love that dog!" when i hear that i think this person either:
> 
> *a.* confused a nice dog with a firebreather or
> 
> ...


D. Or holding a blue ribbon.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Brian Cockfield said:


> Wayne Curtis told me Moses was the complete package.


He is the real deal. As a puppy, he was the best marking pups I have ever seen. Once he continues to mature, I would think he will be a very consistent performer in trials. One of those well trained hard charging dogs.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

kj,
if it is "well trained and enjoyable".....see *a.* there are jalapenos and there are habeneros in the dog world. i enjoy a good chiles toreados myself, but there are talented dogs at levels of earth scorching, thermo nuclear desire that no trainer ever can "make truely reliable".

we all respect dennis as a world class trainer and here is what he said about his "firebreather" in the "rules that aren't rules"thread last year:

That there is some kind of joke. I have worked so hard on this dog from day one that you would not believe it. I have tried everything inthe books. I did not ever enter him in Derby or Q. I single staked him for two years.I have managed to get good behaviour in training but on some days it goes out the window at trials. I experimented this summer with increased exposure at trials to get him more used to going to line-that didn't work!!
I refuse to do things that would fit the category "the end justifies the means". In hindsight I no longer train puppies the way I did with this dog. 

All sorts of people love to watch him by the way and many say "I love that dog and his style" I hate it. When they say that sure must be fun running that dog I say NO! Exciting yes, Fun no. He is outstanding to train and can wow your socks off. I train him with a very high standard. He was one of 3 dogs that didn't handle in the recent national but alas his creeping was BAD!

So don't for a minute say people don't care and don't work on it. I also have seen dogs picked up for line manners many times so that's another issue. I do not believe that teaches a dog like mine much but at least it prevents them form getting away with it and being reinforced again. 

OK back to the topic of how to judge it! A break is an out. A creep is a penalty ranging from minor to major-see Ted's quote etc

Cheers
__________________
Dennis
(Please do not PM me but use my e-mail -see website www.retrieversonline.com)


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## LabFan (Dec 11, 2010)

helencalif said:


> I agree with you, Angie. While we want style -- and style is important -- some folks equate style to hell on wheels. The problem is, these same folks may very likely be unable to train the dog that is hell on wheels and are also incapable of keeping them under control.
> 
> Before seeking a potential fire breather, they should consider talking to the folks who have one.
> 
> ...


I neither want a stud that is a firebreather for hell-on-wheels. I want "style" and drive/speed to the mark. I am learning from this thread that most studs are more either "methodical" or "hell on wheels" except Grady. Is that what all of you are saying?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

LabFan said:


> I neither want a stud that is a firebreather for hell-on-wheels. I want "style" and drive/speed to the mark. I am learning from this thread that most studs are more either "methodical" or "hell on wheels" except Grady. Is that what all of you are saying?


Not at all, many dogs are stylish but drive is not the same as speed. With a fast dog, you need to be quick on the whistle, but slower in your handle and it can take years to learn how to handle a fast dog. You will notice what most people are saying they want a stylish team player that is intelligent and sensible. Also, you have to remember in Opens many good pros make it look easy to handle a firebreather.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

LabFan said:


> I neither want a stud that is a firebreather for hell-on-wheels. I want "style" and drive/speed to the mark. I am learning from this thread that most studs are more either "methodical" or "hell on wheels" except Grady. Is that what all of you are saying?


 
Uh No....... I have two FCs that are not "methodical".... they are fast, smart and stylish, *and* team players. wouldn't trade them for anything.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I have a pro friend who is training a 4yr. old Chopper pup, for a client. The client had done very well with his initial training, however the dog is a fire-breather (very fast, very driven, I'm not sure I've ever seen him in a calm state). It was very hard, if not impossible for the client to keep enough control on him, To play in the test games. The Pro can make that dog do amazing things, the pup is steady and thinking with him. The pro has the speed and experience so that (most of the time) he can control the dog's super-drive. The dog is a talented dog, and it's a very heady experience to try and run him, (definitely not a comfortable experience) as your on edge from the moment he comes out of the kennel and got to be ready for anything that may happen at any second. He is definitely not an amateur-novice friendly dog. That said I'd enjoy attempting to drive a NASCAR-stock car every once in awhile, however I'll keep a Mustang in the garage every-night. Less heart palpitations and speeding tickets with a Mustang.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

laker said:


> I had someone tell tell me once..."I love watching your boy run but I would never want to own a dog like yours."


Ive been told that before, too with my original MH . Afraid I have another one-but boy is he fun to watch do his thing . When it all comes together, we're going places I think.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

I have seen dogs that are too fast. just in case you better start sleeping with your whistle in your mouth.

t


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Since I'm not one currently, I'm wondering from a field trialers perspective if it's not better to have a dog that runs hard, with style, on marks and blinds but is smart enough to ease up a little on the return just from an endurance standpoint? Especially considering the distances FT dogs are asked to run on quads.

My BLF runs VERY hard on marks and blinds, both on his way there and back. But it causes him to get tired more quickly than some other dogs. My training partners dog, for example, runs hard on the way out but eases up on the return, which seems to allow him to save his energy and he doesn't tire out as quickly. Even though he is older and much bigger than my boy.


.


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## Mick Presco (Feb 14, 2010)

Think about FC/AFC Nubian. At ten he still has more drive than most people can handle. Exceptional marker and loves to work. Throws pups with same desires.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I like (Nitro) FC-AFC Yellowstone'S TNT Explosion pups. They had a reputation of being softer dogs and were slower to mature (they tend to grow big 70-90lb.). They didn't do very well with the strict FT training hard collar approach, that used to be the norm, before the collar had advanced. But with the right mix they have plenty of drive, talent, and are the thinking variety of dog. Sensitive and Amateur friendly. My friends have three of them (~13-10 yrs now) great markers, awesome blind work, and they all worked really well with their handlers. These traits carried on to their offspring, (an FC, multiple MH's), and Grand-pups (multiple MH's). The Dog in my Avatar is a Nitro grandson (MH,GMHR,HRCH) I don't run the FT's but his sister is a FC-AFC and has run the NFC multiple times.


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## LabFan (Dec 11, 2010)

Can anyone comment on the line manners, marking and style of running of Hardscrabbles Powder My Buns?


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