# Force to pile???



## luv2hunt (Nov 28, 2007)

This may be a dumb question for some of you, but what exactly is "Force to pile", and what is the purpose of it?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

http://www.totalretriever.com/rj/totalretPDF.pdf

Force to pile is a step used by some, but certainly not all retriever trainers. I have done it both ways and with my current dog, am quite pleased with the results thus far.

Please see the flowchart link in the top of my reply to you. This will show that the "force to pile" is one of the steps in the "pilework" sequence under the "yard work" column.

It is but one step in a sequence of progressive training steps in one program which many folks use successfully.

While many folks use "Force to pile", Mike Lardy has captured the overall program in the flowchart, which illustrates the overall program on one sheet of paper.

Good luck with your training!

Chris


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## luv2hunt (Nov 28, 2007)

I have been working on baseball, and back with her. She knows back, and right and left over. I make her heel beside me and say "back" to the back pile. I just wasn't sure what the difference was between that and force to pile. Is force to pile suppose to make them get there faster?


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

It is one of the steps in a step-by-step process to train a retriever to handle in most modern force programs (Lardy, Graham, etc). In itself, it doesn't do much, but as a part of the overall program, it is a critical stage.


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

You could say in the simplest form that force to pile is an extension of force fetch.... where in FF, the dog is taught to fetch as a command, FTP is one of the steps to teach the dog to go BACK on command. Lot more to it than that but that is the shortest way to explain it. For the actual mechanics, I can't stress enough to get one of the quality DVDs out there or get with someone who has experience. It is definitely something you would NOT want to do outside of a established training program/ regimen/ flowchart. There are a lot of good ones out there. Evan probably is best at EXPLAINING his program with great detail.


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## MAD MALLARD (Nov 5, 2007)

FTP is also a training aid (tool). Later on in training when a dog performs undesirable behaviours such as popping the dog will understand being forced back in order to deal with such a behaviour. I failed to complete this step with my first dog and I suffer from it with her. I am currently doing FTP with my young dog. I see the benefits of going through this process. You might not use the force back correction until later in your training program but it is a good tool to have.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

luv2hunt said:


> I have been working on baseball, and back with her. She knows back, and right and left over. I make her heel beside me and say "back" to the back pile. I just wasn't sure what the difference was between that and force to pile. Is force to pile suppose to make them get there faster?


My experience is limited, but I would say that FTP creates a compulsion in the dog to get to the pile, just as FF creates a compulsion in the dog to get the bumper in it's mouth. A well forced dog should be sitting next to you, totally focused on the pile, and just about coming out of it's skin waiting for you to say back. The dog should be breaking to the pile before you send once in awhile.

I would not attempt it without first studying some of the great material on the subject from Lardy, Graham, or Farmer/Aycock. Help from an experienced trainer wouldn't hurt either.


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

link not working http://www.totalretriever.com/rj/totalretPDF.pdf

can someone please hook me up with the flow chart please???


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Flow chart:

http://www.totalretriever.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=102


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

thanks. I was hoping it applied ages to the chart. but I think I understand why pup ages are not listed.

Can anyone comment on applying some average pup ages as pup progresses through the "flow chart".


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## simcoe mtn (Mar 4, 2011)

obx4me said:


> thanks. I was hoping it applied ages to the chart. but I think I understand why pup ages are not listed.
> 
> Can anyone comment on applying some average pup ages as pup progresses through the "flow chart".


Keep in mind that all dogs mature at different times, but most dogs go through ff, at 6-7 months, for me it comes after ff and all the step with that. FTP in a nut shell is basically teaching a dog that they must go on "back". It was mentioned before but it can be used to aid in the cure of popping. (it is better to not create a popping problem, take it from me, but in the event of it happening it is good to have FTP in your bag of tricks.) Not sure if you had said if your dog had been ff'd, but let it tell you when its ready to start FTP.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

obx4me said:


> thanks. I was hoping it applied ages to the chart. but I think I understand why pup ages are not listed.
> 
> Can anyone comment on applying some average pup ages as pup progresses through the "flow chart".


Yes...
Don't do it.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

luv2hunt said:


> I have been working on baseball, and back with her. She knows back, and right and left over. I make her heel beside me and say "back" to the back pile. I just wasn't sure what the difference was between that and force to pile. Is force to pile suppose to make them get there faster?


Force to pile is a step in a particular type of training program. You should not attempt to do FTP unless you have laid the proper foundation. It would be like putting a roof on a house before the walls are up. If you aren't following a program, that is the best place to start.

FTP is to get the dog to feel compelled to go back and build a tool for you to use later in training. In other words don't think that because your dog already goes fast, that you don't need FTP. That is FTP is a necessary step in those type training programs. There are other types of programs that don't use FTP.


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