# peeing on return



## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Do you say "here" when they slow down to pee to see if they will speed up, and then say "here, nick, here" if they continue to pee and disregard the first command? Or is it "here, nick, here" when you see them slowing down to pee. Is the Nick low and possibly nagging or obviously aversive?


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

DL said:


> Do you say "here" when they slow down to pee to see if they will speed up, and then say "here, nick, here" if they continue to pee and disregard the first command? Or is it "here, nick, here" when you see them slowing down to pee. Is the Nick low and possibly nagging or obviously aversive?


Neither, let the dog pee on the return and aire the dog better before training.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Misty Marsh said:


> Neither, let the dog pee on the return and aire the dog better before training.


What he said.if it is ajust a case of a dog not being aired and needing to pee..........HOWEVER if it becomes a habit of male marking or avoidance behavior then put a Stop to it


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Peeing on return is as likely a possession issue as much and a basic need. I correct with as much pressure as I can get away with safely and keep the "Here" coming. 
Don and Crew


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Nick when they slow down, and whistle. Its a failure to respond to "here", any deviation from straight back, is a correction, (let the punishment fit the crime though- )
Again, it depends- if its a " I really have to pee" and more than just a 'marking " situation, then absolutely they get corrected. 
You get to know your dog-if its a thing they do, then it needs to be stopped, if its a one time occasion, like they didnt air enough, then by all means they can go.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> What he said.if it is ajust a case of a dog not being aired and needing to pee..........HOWEVER if it becomes a habit of male marking or avoidance behavior then put a Stop to it


It's male marking. As far as it being avoidance, I guess so. I don't really understand it. I would think he would want to get back quick to get another mark. Maybe it is possessive, like this is mine I want to keep it. I walk my dog before putting him in the truck and most of the time he isn't in there long. Being away from home makes a difference. It is annoying enough that I want to stop it.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Billie said:


> Nick when they slow down, and whistle. Its a failure to respond to "here", any deviation from straight back, is a correction, (let the punishment fit the crime though- )
> Again, it depends- if its a " I really have to pee" and more than just a 'marking " situation, then absolutely they get corrected.
> You get to know your dog-if its a thing they do, then it needs to be stopped, if its a one time occasion, like they didnt air enough, then by all means they can go.


It's a thing he does.


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Don't accept marking. He slows down you tell/whistle him here. He doesn't, nick him good. No time for that crap when hunting or training.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's a male bad habit where they want to mark everything that has scent and you have allowed it. You have to correct it or it will get worse. Agree with Cass. Nick him good here. Don't put up with it even once.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

DL said:


> It's male marking. As far as it being avoidance, I guess so. I don't really understand it. I would think he would want to get back quick to get another mark. Maybe it is possessive, like this is mine I want to keep it. I walk my dog before putting him in the truck and most of the time he isn't in there long. Being away from home makes a difference. It is annoying enough that I want to stop it.


Have a look at his overall behavior. I'll bet there are additional obedience infractions that need to be addressed also. Stopping to mark when you're supposed to be coming in is a symptom of a bigger problem, I think. He shouldn't even think about it.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

If it is a male marking - this is a violation of here - treat accordingly.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Retrieving is about the return !..Too much concentrate on the 'Go' .
Dog not got it's head on the job and sloppy training/handling has a lac lustre return . 
Mind You !?...some exhibit 'pressure' on the return , often induced by the persistence/pressure of the return?
Short mark ?> ..ain't got time or excuse to 'take the piss'


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> It's a male bad habit where they want to mark everything that has scent and you have allowed it. You have to correct it or it will get worse. Agree with Cass. Nick him good here. Don't put up with it even once.


Absolutely agree!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

The Snows said:


> Absolutely agree!


Disagree !, but hey don't shoot the messenger.
The 'nick' is not the answer to all ! ..(imo) .
Perhaps the nick was the cause?


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

polmaise said:


> Disagree !, but hey don't shoot the messenger.
> The 'nick' is not the answer to all ! ..(imo) .
> Perhaps the nick was the cause?


Going to disagree with you on this one .... If he was aired properly before running and he stops (particularly if a male before him stopped in the same spot) I would be here nick here to be stopping that behaviour before it becomes the norm. 

Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than watching someone run a male on a training day (where you have the ability to correct) where they just stand there and watch their male mark his way back to the line and there is zero correction for this behaviour. 

And yes I do run a male .... as well as females.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

The Snows said:


> Going to disagree with you on this one ....
> And yes I do run a male .... as well as females.


I have no problem with your disagreement . 
I also had a few females in for training that 'pissed' on the return!.....
A well trained dog or bitch is a well trained dog...
Some don't require reminding of this fact ?......It is simple basic yard drills and transition to any field drills that the dog has understood before any 'nick' .


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Male marking is something I do not tolerate. I don't tolerate it training, I don't tolerate it hunting, and I don't tolerate it on walks. If a female dog can take one pee when aired and then go on to do everything else for an extended period, so can a male. Even when mine goes out to the yard to do his business he pees once and poops if he has to. We share a yard with another couple who own 3 dogs - 2 of which are males. I do not allow him to mark all over the yard like they do. Set a standard and enforce it. It is nothing more than a bad habit.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

The Snows said:


> Going to disagree with you on this one .... If he was aired properly before running and he stops (particularly if a male before him stopped in the same spot) I would be here nick here to be stopping that behaviour before it becomes the norm.


You could stop that behavior but the cause (loose obedience) would still exist.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Have a look at his overall behavior. I'll bet there are additional obedience infractions that need to be addressed also. Stopping to mark when you're supposed to be coming in is a symptom of a bigger problem, I think. He shouldn't even think about it.


I figure they all do it unless you do something about it.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

I judged a trial a while back and there was a male that marked every thing, not only on the way back but on the way out as well. And darrin is correct this dog had many other OB problems to go along with marking..


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> I judged a trial a while back and there was a male that marked every thing, not only on the way back but on the way out as well. And darrin is correct this dog had many other OB problems to go along with marking..


Yes .. And it just shows WHO (dog or handler) is running the show!


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

DL said:


> Do you say "here" when they slow down to pee to see if they will speed up, and then say "here, nick, here" if they continue to pee and disregard the first command? Or is it "here, nick, here" when you see them slowing down to pee. Is the Nick low and possibly nagging or obviously aversive?


I don't care if it's a male or female, don't allow it upper level training....If you use a solid charge for here ...then that's what he/she gets. ...Most of that is BS.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

If this is a male marking(urination) issue that is a whole different ballgame. I agree with the others that this a dominance issue that must be corrected with a firm/fair response. You need to be the boss and this is just the small part of the retrieve that he has found to control, there are likely other Obediance issues that you have seen and more that will pop up later if left unchecked. "Here", nich, "here" will very likely clean it up?


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

DL said:


> It's a thing he does.


Then yes, Whistle and nick . I think, in rereading my post, I didnt make the sense I was trying to !


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

DL said:


> I figure they all do it unless you do something about it.


Some dogs are going to be more independent than others, but avoidance behaviors are not a given. Some will exhibit avoidance in training while others are more willing to comply with your wishes. What you need to do in obedience will vary according to the dog's personality. I'm talking about all canines now, dogs and bitches in all situations/disciplines. Some are just more interested in independence than others. 

If you have an independent soul you need to be much more stringent about your obedience requirements, in general anyway. A thoroughly applied retriever program usually takes care of itself, however some special attention might need to be given to some dogs that behave this way. 

Seriously, I don't know you (assume I don't) or your dog but have a look (or have someone else look) at his overall obedience standards. I would bet there are other avoidance type behaviors going on that aren't quite so obvious. If you put out a pile does he hesitate/shop/bring back more than one bumper? Over run it and grab one on the way back? How's his sit? A little loopy? Bit of movement when he's cuing up to launch? All stuff he's doing because he wants to do it vs. what you're asking. Those little details (and more) are what makes a difference in the dog's overall attitude/performance. 

You could squash the "marking" with a few well timed corrections but you would only be addressing one of what I suspect are a number of factors that need to be looked at/corrected.

Obviously this is all speculations but every retriever I have ever seen that did this (I've seen a bunch) was a very independent dog, usually giving the handler trouble on blinds and other obedience oriented items.

That may be because people let them go a long time without addressing the issue. I don't know.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Some dogs are going to be more independent than others, but avoidance behaviors are not a given. Some will exhibit avoidance in training while others are more willing to comply with your wishes. What you need to do in obedience will vary according to the dog's personality. I'm talking about all canines now, dogs and bitches in all situations/disciplines. Some are just more interested in independence than others.
> 
> If you have an independent soul you need to be much more stringent about your obedience requirements, in general anyway. A thoroughly applied retriever program usually takes care of itself, however some special attention might need to be given to some dogs that behave this way.
> 
> ...


Honestly, that's a load of crap. I appreciate the effort. I just want to be succinct.


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## tide pond (Feb 19, 2013)

My four year old female Chessie was peeing when returning to the line on almost every retrieve. She would get to about 10 yards out and squat to pee. I don't know if it was a nervous reaction or a reluctance to return and give up the bird. It was a situation that I had tolerated and had unwittingly allowed to establish itself.

The fix was simple. First, make sure the dog is properly aired. Go overboard with this precaution. You don't want to make corrections for a biological necessity. Then consistency on the correction. At first just a loud No! Here! And then praise if she comes quickly. A few days of this and the dog will know what you expect. After the association is made, a No!, nick, Here! may be called for. I don't like to nick close to the line on return and luckily didn't need to often. Dogs are smart and will soon figure out how to make you happy. Consistency is the key. It took about two weeks and now the problem is over. I'm always alert to make sure she(I) don't fall back into that habit


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

DL, You're welcome. Good luck.


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Never let them get away with it!


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Mark Sehon said:


> Never let them get away with it!


Before you can treat weeing on return from retrieve, you do really need to understand why it is being done. As people have said, yes it can be failure to empty prior to work or marking (or lack of mind on the job), or failure of recall and importance of 'you', but also it can often be as a response to pressure. So, to correct in this instance would not be a great thing to do, and may just make matters worse.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

kennel maiden said:


> Before you can treat weeing on return from retrieve, you do really need to understand why it is being done. As people have said, yes it can be failure to empty prior to work or marking (or lack of mind on the job), or failure of recall and importance of 'you', but also it can often be as a response to pressure. So, to correct in this instance would not be a great thing to do, and may just make matters worse.


Now now... we are being succinct


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

If you correct too harshly, do you have to worry about affecting the dog's marking ability?


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> If you correct too harshly, do you have to worry about affecting the dog's marking ability?


That's funny. It can't be too easy for a dog to stop mid stream. Here is my latest idea. If someone knows the plan is to correct on it, maybe if makes sense to say "here" before a dog gets into the zone were he usually pees. If someone has already said "here" it would be more blatant for the dog to decide to take a pee, and less setting up for failure than if someone waits until the dog decides to pee. Dogs hold their bladders all day, so that way it can't be because a dog has to go. I may try that a time or two and see what happens. I try not to over use the whistle or the here command, but a time or two wouldn't hurt.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

DL said:


> That's funny. It can't be too easy for a dog to stop mid stream. Here is my latest idea. If someone knows the plan is to correct on it, maybe if makes sense to say "here" before a dog gets into the zone were he usually pees. If someone has already said "here" it would be more blatant for the dog to decide to take a pee, and less setting up for failure than if someone waits until the dog decides to pee. Dogs hold their bladders all day, so that way it can't be because a dog has to go. I may try that a time or two and see what happens. I try not to over use the whistle or the here command, but a time or two wouldn't hurt.


When the dog picks up the mark and you blow the come in whistle(assuming you do blow it upon pickup of the mark/blind), you have already commanded 'here'. Any peeing episode after that(assuming dog has been properly aired) is one of 2 things: 1.) Pure disobedience due to desire to mark territory or 2.) Avoidance behavior due to pressure. 

I wholeheartedly agree with others, you need to figure out what the root of the problem is before you decide on the method of correction/rehabilitation.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Boy this is sure getting complicated. Make sure he's well aired, don't let him get away with it in training. That's why everyone talks about retriever training being an art form. No one but you knows how you train, you have to figure it out. Knowing not to let him get away with it should get you started.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I figured it out. Considering my dog is trained on some things out the wazoo and will do anything he knows to do, he is out there in an area where he doesn't get much attention waiting for me to tell him what to do and come into an area where he has to think and be on his pees and Qs. It's pressure and lack of communication and I communicate it the same way I train. Thanks for making me identify it.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

DL said:


> I figure they all do it unless you do something about it.


I disagree with this.



I think it's partially (for many dogs) a matter of conditioning from the start.
I think there are dogs who love the work and are conditioned to try hard to get back to continue to play the game.
If dogs learn that retrieving is something that's kinda boring - and they can stop and smell the roses, and that's allowed to continue, then yes, this behavior has to be stopped.
But I think that with many dogs, this behavior can be *prevented through ongoing conditioning from the time they are babies*. It's all about the game. It's all about the fun.
If the retrieve is the best part of the day - then they're going to want to retrieve. Not all, but many.

Just my opinion.

Chris


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Boy this is sure getting complicated. That's why everyone talks about retriever training being an art form.


That's because it actually IS complicated  It's not as simple as here nick here... well, if you want to fix the real issue, it isn't. Could just be a dog pissing on a bush but as most have said... probably more to it than that.

Advice worth what you paid for it, I suppose.


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

bamajeff said:


> When the dog picks up the mark and you blow the come in whistle(assuming you do blow it upon pickup of the mark/blind), you have already commanded 'here'. Any peeing episode after that(assuming dog has been properly aired) is one of 2 things: 1.) Pure disobedience due to desire to mark territory or 2.) Avoidance behavior due to pressure.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree with others, you need to figure out what the root of the problem is before you decide on the method of correction/rehabilitation.


or
3. dominance
Jere


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Jere said:


> or
> 3. dominance
> Jere


And that is exactly what 1 is. They're marking their territory to show dominance


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I've only had one dog, Shadow, that was bad about peeling on the return. I corrected the issue by using ecollar nicks on a relatively low intensity
It was an unacceptable behavior just like many others. We didn't have to visit a doggy psychologist to determine if this was caused by mommy issues.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ignorance in the name of simplicity is still ignorance


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I've only had one dog, Shadow, that was bad about peeling on the return. I corrected the issue by using ecollar nicks on a relatively low intensity
> It was an unacceptable behavior just like many others. We didn't have to visit a doggy psychologist to determine if this was caused by mommy issues.


ROFL, good one, Wayne.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Ignorance in the name of simplicity is still ignorance


That's pretty nasty. Dogs have been marking before ecollars, obedience gurus, and trainers existed. You just don't allow it when you are training. Puppies don't mark. It doesn't happen only because of disobedience, and Wayne is right, you don't have to seek doggy psychologists to stop it. Business must be slow.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

The issue of stopping when returning with a bird is not that complicated, I am relatively sure the OP does not mind me sharing what I sent by PM.


_The why is irrelevant the what is stopping on returning with a bird is an undesirable behavior whether too urinate, defecate, or drop the bird. It is a simple connection for the dog, do not stop when returning with a bird, the fix is simple as soon as he slows down on his return and you anticipate he is going to stop blow the come in whistle and push the button, if he spits out the bird make him pick it up even if you have to go to the field. It will only take a few corrections with good timing on your part to eliminate the undesired behavior._


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Exactly, Dr. Ed.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba can probably help you with this. Even after a few beers you give him just a little verbal pressure and he'll stand there all day without leaking a drop....

/Paul


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> That's pretty nasty. Dogs have been marking before ecollars, obedience gurus, and trainers existed. You just don't allow it when you are training. Puppies don't mark. It doesn't happen only because of disobedience, and Wayne is right, you don't have to seek doggy psychologists to stop it. Business must be slow.


Sorry if I offended you. No one suggested advanced psychological analysis to solve the problem. I see the pattern now. Quote Lardy or get an argument.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Sorry if I offended you. No one suggested advanced psychological analysis to solve the problem. I see the pattern now. Quote Lardy or get an argument.


You didn't offend me, you called someone ignorant because they posted what worked for them and also works for many, and that is violation of the "Here" command.


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## Jwattsmojo (Jul 15, 2013)

Try the ole bird dog methods strap shock collar around the back of his belly with prongs under his belly and knick here . Trust me it gets the attention. Marking is a bad habit to break. But that's just another way to try


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

A definition of ignorant-lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

Being an Aggie I have accepted that I am unsophisticated but I didn't know it was a requirement to be a dog trainer. 
I'll bet that many of us are ignorant. I know for certain that Gooser has problems meeting this definition. Hahalol.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> You didn't offend me, you called someone ignorant because they posted what worked for them and also works for many, and that is violation of the "Here" command.


WWLD is my new standard for posting. I've found recently that if I quote the accepted "retriever" logic that I get a lot of agreement with my posts. If I post anything else, especially anything that provokes more depth in thinking... I get arguments...

I did this as a deliberate test and it turned out to be universally true of the forum participants. 

Quote Lardy or shut up. I guess I'd better get the Hillman DVD's and learn that. I'm going to a seminar of his in May. Maybe after that, I will be able to post more acceptable content.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

That's not very sophisticated.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> WWLD is my new standard for posting. I've found recently that if I quote the accepted "retriever" logic that I get a lot of agreement with my posts. If I post anything else, especially anything that provokes more depth in thinking... I get arguments...
> 
> I did this as a deliberate test and it turned out to be universally true of the forum participants.
> 
> Quote Lardy or shut up. I guess I'd better get the Hillman DVD's and learn that. I'm going to a seminar of his in May. Maybe after that, I will be able to post more acceptable content.


Yepper, some folks on here just ain't real bright and don't like all that there in depth thinkin' stuff. 'Specially the ones finishin' nationals and titles and ribbons n stuff, they just train those dumb as rock robot field dogs and don't know nothin' better.

BTW, your first version was more acceptable, where you claimed not to have called anyone ignorant, mighta shoulda stuck to that before editing again.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Quote Lardy or shut up.


 Pardon me. Make up your mind-I thought we were all supposed to think out of the box like you. Bottom line is I think you are way over concerned with this whole subject of wizzing and am not impressed at all by yours.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I really could care less what or how people think. Really, I don't care. I just think it's unproductive to chastise people for presenting valid information, simply because it doesn't fit the accepted vernacular preached by the icons of the retriever world. There's a lot more information available if you go out there and look. Some if it valuable, some of it not so much. I try, although I'm about to quit again, to add value to the discussion by adding information that might be useful to a percentage of people. Ten people are going to quote Lardy on every question. Anything additive gets chastised and effectively discredited, even by those it was intended to help. Arguing with people who train a few personal dogs or use a pro primarily is just a silly idea. For whatever reason I find it entertaining sometimes. 

Very few national finalist trainers running around here and those who are post their position and leave it at that.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Jwattsmojo said:


> Try the ole bird dog methods strap shock collar around the back of his belly with prongs under his belly and knick here . Trust me it gets the attention. Marking is a bad habit to break. But that's just another way to try


Jeez!! Did you really just write that??  Has dog 'training' really come to that??...


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

kennel maiden said:


> Jeez!! Did you really just write that??  Has dog 'training' really come to that??...


I would guess that is a method less often used than one might think (I hope, at any rate). Personally I think dogs that whiz, mark, and sometimes poo while working (I have seen dogs mark territory by deficating) are doing so because they've been allowed to, because they are showing their owner/handler they are in control/dominant, are being possessive of 'their' bird (dominance), or are putting off work (dominance again - who's in control?).


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" To add a little humor to the discussion ...On a hill side on a windy day while watching the open run in west Monroe La this story was told...A man with a Chessy had this very problem, stopping to pee on the way back with the bird..A friend suggested the use of a collar to stimulate him when he did his thing..As advised the owner borrowed a collar and did as instructed when the dog stopped to water a cedar bush ..after the dog had destroyed the cedar bush and all that remained was a bare stub he came in and the owner took the collar off and never put it on the dog again...superstitious behavior ...Steve S


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Well this thread has turned into a real pissing match. (see what i did there...) I hadn't even read this thread, just saw an opportunity to rib Bubba, but now that there is "controversy" in the urine world I went back and read the whole thing. Couple of thoughts. 

I don’t see that Darrin has said anything outrageous in his advice. Understanding why a dog is doing something is not bad advice. Looking at his overall behaviors and having a plan to address issues is not bad. On the flip side, getting into minutia for every dog behavior is not always necessary. Like DocEd said, sometimes “why” is not necessary, just focus on the behaviors and correct it if its wrong. 

The OP DL is clearly a fairly new trainer based on his comments and this question. I’m a bit perplexed about asking for advice, then pissing on those offering the requested advice. Oh wait, I think load of crap was mentioned…

Nobody has asked for any details about the dog. Is this a common problem for this dog? Does he do it on every mark or training setup? Have you aired the dog beforehand or just pulled him of the truck and ran him? What is his general demeanor in other aspects of training? Lots of internet guru’s answering questions specific to this dog with pretty generic training methods. 

There was a request to keep this succinct. Since when is dog training succinct? To quote Lardy (just to make people happy) take note of what happens in training and “make book” on it. If a dog is doing something track it. Build a plan to address and it.

As you train enough dogs this will seem like a fairly small, easy to fix issue. Bottom line is the dog can piss on his own time, I got work to do.

/Paul


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well this thread has turned into a real pissing match. (see what i did there...) I hadn't even read this thread, just saw an opportunity to rib Bubba, but now that there is "controversy" in the urine world I went back and read the whole thing. Couple of thoughts.
> 
> I don’t see that Darrin has said anything outrageous in his advice. Understanding why a dog is doing something is not bad advice. Looking at his overall behaviors and having a plan to address issues is not bad. On the flip side, getting into minutia for every dog behavior is not always necessary. Like DocEd said, sometimes “why” is not necessary, just focus on the behaviors and correct it if its wrong.
> 
> ...


I don't think you are psychopathic, but if you were, and you were testing people and jerking their chain, I would make a succinct yet polite comment to you as well. I would say I appreciate the effort, that I think you are full of crap, and let's leave it at that. I do not desire to play into your evil plans. I have people skills.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Good luck with your dog and have a nice day. 

/Paul


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Good luck with your dog and have a nice day.
> 
> /Paul


Sorry you didn't like my explanation that you misquoted me and I was not the cause of the drama as implicated in your post.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Good luck with your dog and have a nice day. 

/Paul


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Good luck with your dog and have a nice day.
> 
> /Paul


I respect that you are being succinct and polite just like me. Enjoy your evening.


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## Jwattsmojo (Jul 15, 2013)

kennel maiden said:


> Jeez!! Did you really just write that??  Has dog 'training' really come to that??...


With some dogs yes. Marking and peeing are two different things. I don't mean light the dog up just enough to get attention. You must be a anti collar whiz . Thanx. If a method works it works. Marking can be a real bad habit in a male dog so the quicker you can resolve the habit that better


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## Jwattsmojo (Jul 15, 2013)

I've never used the method but know old tymers who have.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Bottom line is the dog can piss on his own time, I got work to do. /Paul 

Like DocEd said, sometimes “why” is not necessary, just focus on the behaviors and correct it if its wrong.

To quote Lardy (just to make people happy) take note of what happens in training and “make book” on it. If a dog is doing something track it. Build a plan to address and it. 

Three very good pieces of advice...live (train) by these and you can't go wrong....steve s


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

In seven pages, the first quote from Lardy.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Jwattsmojo said:


> With some dogs yes. Marking and peeing are two different things. I don't mean light the dog up just enough to get attention. You must be a anti collar whiz . Thanx. If a method works it works. Marking can be a real bad habit in a male dog so the quicker you can resolve the habit that better


How about teaching/training it not to do it in the first place?? Zapping the dog isn't training it, it's just a method of correction/punishment for a failure in training...

I like the quote from Lardy below 'make a note and then build a plan to work on it'.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Wayne Nutt said:


> In seven pages, the first quote from Lardy.


You know what I said is more or less 100% true around here Wayne. Lardy or Hillman, otherwise expect blow back.

As to the quote - seems as though he is advocating being observant (take note) of your dog's behavior(s) and thinking (make a plan) about addressing them before blindly acting. 

Sound at all familiar to anything else in this thread?

Here nick here - have a great day!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

steve schreiner said:


> Bottom line is the dog can piss on his own time, I got work to do. /Paul
> 
> Like DocEd said, sometimes “why” is not necessary, just focus on the behaviors and correct it if its wrong.
> 
> ...


No no no. Steve you have it all wrong.....



DL said:


> I would say I appreciate the effort, that I think you are full of crap, and let's leave it at that. I have people skills.


I don't have people skills. Then again, I don't have dogs that stop and piss on everything when running marks either so what do I know...

/Paul


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I did this as a deliberate test and it turned out to be universally true of the forum participants.


Here is what you said earlier Paul. It's a complete quote of what you said in context. What's up with that?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I vote DL to be among the most ungrateful RTFers ever. Or at least since I joined.

Something like 6 or 7 pages of comments, not a single thank you in there from DL thanking people for their time. Here we got lots of folks trying helping DL deal with his problem, and not a single thank you. 

Meanwhile he has the time to complain to folks like /Paul, Darrin and others about how they got it all wrong.

What a sad situation.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

P.S. Thank you Chris Atkinson for a great forum. Many of us have had veterinarians that could not answer all our questions, and many more of us have not known how to get help with our training questions. The Retriever Training Forum has helped me fill in a lot of the gaps, I am very grateful for a place like this to ask for help when I had no where else to ask.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Kinda the new normal.

Most that can help won't because of just what happened here.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I have to pee.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

duk4me said:


> I have to pee.


Is that on Lardy's "flow" chart??


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

mitty said:


> I vote DL to be among the most ungrateful RTFers ever. Or at least since I joined.
> 
> Something like 6 or 7 pages of comments, not a single thank you in there from DL thanking people for their time. Here we got lots of folks trying helping DL deal with his problem, and not a single thank you.
> 
> ...


Would you like to make a wager that I can't find many examples of me saying thank you?


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Here is the first one. Someone tell me a better way to dog this because it is going to take a while.

"Thanks, sorry it was confusing. That is what I was trying to ask: After I complete CC, how can I use the collar? and is there anything else I can do to help before using it on line manners and obedience? I have some familiarity with the additional steps and won't be using it in the field yet.

Right now, I really want to zap him on "here" if I need to at a distance when we are walking, airing, etc.. without him bolting or getting into a battle. I am actually being overly cautious with it. I don't really want to say "here" and get a refusal and then nick on the second "here". I think I will say "come on" which is my less demanding here command, and then follow that with a nick on "here" if he doesn't listen. I can tell already it isn't going be a problem, because where he used to sit and make me come get him, he is coming on his own when I start looking at him and pull out the transmitter.

It's that sort of thing. For instance, I don't think I'm going to zap him on sit, and then zap him to come off the sit. I'm zapping for coming off the sit though. Thanks again."


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

You owe me a hundred, send it by paypal, I'll give you the email address by pm:

"Thanks, I have been using the fingers down in ear a little way from the hair. I put it on hold a while for me to figure out what was going on. I thought maybe he just wasn't being vocal. It does serious him up. He just sits there with his mouth open letting me put the bumper in and out. I am going to to get some help with it. My training has gone a little strange."


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

How many do you want, there may be fifty or more, google DL and see for your self:

"Thanks, it would be interesting to see what the treat maker says about it. I'm going to google it first."


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

So far this is one example from the first four posts that pop up when you search my user name. There may be multiple times I said thank in each of those.

"Thanks, I have always used "no" mostly, except for when heeling like was mentioned. It doesn't sound like a bad idea to put a treat under the shoe and tell a puppy to leave it and have him sit to get treat out of the hand and then get the treat on the ground. That may not be exactly how it goes."


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

This is from the fifth post that pops up when you google my user name:

"Thanks that is the direction I am going."


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Those are from the first five posts that pop up when you google my user name. Admit your wrong or send me a $100 Mitty.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Anybody what five more?


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

If I start a separate thread on it, it is going to be a long thread. Let's just say there is generally one thank you per post that I have made. I'll count them for you.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I estimate there is at least 102 instances of me saying thank you on RTF and I was here before conversions so the number could be much higher.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I forgot to account for pm s. I have said thank you in pm s about 5 times this week. 5 X 52 = 260 + 102 =362. A lot of the time I say thank you at the beginning and end of the pm.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

You are welcome DL. did you solve your problem.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

duk4me said:


> You are welcome DL. did you solve your problem.


Thanks for asking. I will be surprised if the issue isn't easily resolved. I've only ran three marks this week so far which is less than usual. I'm clear on what to do.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

DL said:


> Here is what you said earlier Paul. It's a complete quote of what you said in context. What's up with that?


I think Darrin said that.....

Its all ****z and giggles until someone giggles and ****z....


/Paul


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I think Darrin said that.....
> 
> Its all ****z and giggles until someone giggles and ****z....
> 
> ...



I was wondering what he was writing about. Made no sense to me, either!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I think Darrin said that.....
> 
> Its all ****z and giggles until someone giggles and ****z....
> 
> ...


A famous man once said...

Never trust a fart!


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> Never trust a fart!



Or animal that will eat it's own........ And....... it's own mother...And 10 pages about how to stop a dog from wizzing on a bush, when it all boils down to lack of respect for the one who thinks he/she is running the show.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thumbs aren't always an indicator


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> Thumbs aren't always an indicator


Been out training all day and have wind burn, so I'll use that as my excuse but you lost me..

My point, as soon as I finish typing this I'm going to leave for a two mile walk with the dogs ( more for me than the dogs) but I have 2 intact males and in that two miles there are 39 mail box posts to pee on, when I walk them NONE get peed on, but if my wife walks them then I can assure you that at least half of them get watered.. She doesn't care, I do and they know who is walking them and what they can get away with..


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> when it all boils down to lack of respect for the one who thinks he/she is running the show.


Exactly what I said back in post #21! ;-)


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Been out training all day and have wind burn, so I'll use that as my excuse but you lost me..
> 
> My point, as soon as I finish typing this I'm going to leave for a two mile walk with the dogs ( more for me than the dogs) but I have 2 intact males and in that two miles there are 39 mail box posts to pee on, when I walk them NONE get peed on, but if my wife walks them then I can assure you that at least half of them get watered.. She doesn't care, I do and they know who is walking them and what they can get away with..


I am getting ready to take my dog on a two mile walk with my dog and there will be no mail boxes. He will be off lead and he will pee wherever he likes. He will poop wherever he likes and I will not pick it up. He will come when he called and allow me to take things out of his mouth that I would not like him to swallow. He will not get close to the road I live 200 yards from. I don't disagree with your points, but some of you fail to realize I don't have a city dog. Before I elaborate and get attacked for it, does anyone see my point in that? Why would I care where a dog pees when I take a walk? He is fifty yards away from me most of the time. Why would I care if he is fifty yards away as long as he comes back when called? My training is on a flow chart for the largest part if that makes any sense. If you start taking it off the flow chart it starts to become unactionable and irrelevant to me.


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Please don't think I'm being rude but I think you missed the point


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

As far as Mr. Caswell post, I think I get the point with that. He doesn't allow marking. My point is I have totally cared less about it. Does anyone get my point? Probably not. I get all the points.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I want my dog to walk at heel unless and until I have released him to do otherwise. When I am initially training this behavior, and hopefully this mindset, do I make him heel everywhere whether he needs to or not, or do I just let him go on his own when he doesn't really need to be at heel (without being affirmatively released) and then try to enforce it when he really does need to be at heel? IOW, do you want the dog to understand that he's working unless told otherwise or vice versa?

Keep in mind that dogs do not generalize behaviors very well at all.



DL said:


> I am getting ready to take my dog on a two mile walk with my dog and there will be no mail boxes. He will be off lead and he will pee wherever he likes. He will poop wherever he likes and I will not pick it up. He will come when he called and allow me to take things out of his mouth that I would not like him to swallow. He will not get close to the road I live 200 yards from. I don't disagree with your points, but some of you fail to realize I don't have a city dog. Before I elaborate and get attacked for it, does anyone see my point in that? Why would I care where a dog pees when I take a walk? He is fifty yards away from me most of the time. Why would I care if he is fifty yards away as long as he comes back when called? My training is on a flow chart for the largest part if that makes any sense. If you start taking it off the flow chart it starts to become unactionable and irrelevant to me.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

The retriever class that I have been attending with Toby this winter has all manner of owners - first time trainers, folks who've trained previous dogs to hunt, some who are experienced... At every class it is easy to spot the ones who let their dogs run the show (much to the instructor's amusement/disappointment, because while he can tell them they have an issue and show them how to resolve it, they just don't 'get it' or take it seriously) - just yesterday during the marking set-up I watched probably 1/4 of the dogs go out to a mark and take a leak either on the way out or the way back (or both). These same dogs paid absolutely zero attn to their owners when given the come in whistle or 'here' command.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> Why would I care where a dog pees when I take a walk? He is fifty yards away from me most of the time. Why would I care if he is fifty yards away as long as he comes back when called? He will poop wherever he likes_._


 *DL*, I've refrained from posting thus far; I thought you'd had an elegant sufficiency of answers to your original question.  However if the board had known of the above sentences at the beginning, some of those answers would have had a different slant. 

In the training phase we need to have the dog see us as the single most important and rewarding thing in his life. What you are allowing to happen is for the dog to become "self employed" and decide what's a lot more interesting than you are, where he goes and what he does. It seems likely that the undesirable behaviour on return stems from that lack of tight obedience and handler control. If you don't care to rectify that and any other OB infractions, then by nicking / zapping him, all you are going to do is punish him for a behaviour you've taught him is acceptable. That I think, is unfair, but you must make your own decision on that.

I am not a collar trainer and of the seventeen dogs I've had in my own kennels not one was ever allowed to run free in training and not one ever pooped or piddled on the return. All were taught to poop on command, not least for social reasons.

And yes, I'm sure you now get the point.

Eug


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> I want my dog to walk at heel unless and until I have released him to do otherwise. When I am initially training this behavior, and hopefully this mindset, do I make him heel everywhere whether he needs to or not, or do I just let him go on his own when he doesn't really need to be at heel (without being affirmatively released) and then try to enforce it when he really does need to be at heel? IOW, do you want the dog to understand that he's working unless told otherwise or vice versa?
> 
> Keep in mind that dogs do not generalize behaviors very well at all.


I don't understand this. I walk. The dog stays in my general area because we have a bond and no one else is around and that is what we do every day. You all aren't comprehending that.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> The retriever class that I have been attending with Toby this winter has all manner of owners - first time trainers, folks who've trained previous dogs to hunt, some who are experienced... At every class it is easy to spot the ones who let their dogs run the show (much to the instructor's amusement/disappointment, because while he can tell them they have an issue and show them how to resolve it, they just don't 'get it' or take it seriously) - just yesterday during the marking set-up I watched probably 1/4 of the dogs go out to a mark and take a leak either on the way out or the way back (or both). These same dogs paid absolutely zero attn to their owners when given the come in whistle or 'here' command.


My dog runs cold blinds. I take videos. My dog can do more than yours. I'll post if anyone likes.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *DL*, I've refrained from posting thus far; I thought you'd had an elegant sufficiency of answers to your original question.  However if the board had known of the above sentences at the beginning, some of those answers would have had a different slant.
> 
> In the training phase we need to have the dog see us as the single most important and rewarding thing in his life. What you are allowing to happen is for the dog to become "self employed" and decide what's a lot more interesting than you are, where he goes and what he does. It seems likely that the undesirable behaviour on return stems from that lack of tight obedience and handler control. If you don't care to rectify that and any other OB infractions, then by nicking / zapping him, all you are going to do is punish him for a behaviour you've taught him is acceptable. That I think, is unfair, but you must make your own decision on that.
> 
> ...


He isn't running free in training. Teaching pooping and peeing on command is a good thing. I don't guess anyone gets my point that I don't do it. I let him out. We walk a minimum of 30 minutes. That kind of dedication is surely unfathomable.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

The whole thing is pretty ridiculous.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

DL said:


> My dog runs cold blinds. I take videos. My dog can do more than yours. I'll post is anyone likes.


If you have all the answers, and can train your dog so much better than others, maybe you shouldn't come here asking for advice. And with the way you've responded to people who've offered their thoughts, don't be surprised if the next time you do come here and really need advice, you don't get very much.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*DL*,

Not to labour the point, but you need to sit down and have a think about just what constitutes training in your mind as opposed to the dog's. Anything you allow the dog to do is in effect training him to do it. Remember the phrase "You own what you condone"?

It's axiomatic that in changing the dogs behaviour we have to change our own, so if you want to address the problem at source you have to do something different from the current pattern. It seems to me that the behaviour you see as unacceptable in your dog is very likely caused by your own behaviour, so it needs to change. 

Giving the dog a zap on the in run has it's own potential dangers, relying as it does on the dog correctly interpreting what he's being punished for; he may not be able to do that, and you could compound the problem. Tightening up on basic obedience has no such danger and would be (as it always is) beneficial. 

None of us has seen you and the dog together and so we aren't in a position to be diagnostic, but there is a prima facie case of poor basics being compounded every day. Don't reject out of hand advice that cuts across your own perceptions; give the job the thought and reflection it deserves. 

Eug


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

DL said:


> Do you say "here" when they slow down to pee to see if they will speed up, and then say "here, nick, here" if they continue to pee and disregard the first command? Or is it "here, nick, here" when you see them slowing down to pee. Is the Nick low and possibly nagging or obviously aversive?


So did you get your answer DL?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

My dogs don't pee when we are training (retrieving) but when I am walking in the neighborhood for exercise (with my dog on a lead) i don't care if they pee. I think that is what DL was saying.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

DL said:


> My dog runs cold blinds. I take videos. My dog can do more than yours. I'll post if anyone likes.


My point has zero to do with what level a dog has been trained to...????

Their owners allowed them to get away with unacceptable behavior and as a result are losing ground when it comes to the dog have a respectful working relationship with them.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *DL*,
> 
> Not to labour the point, but you need to sit down and have a think about just what constitutes training in your mind as opposed to the dog's. Anything you allow the dog to do is in effect training him to do it. Remember the phrase "You own what you condone"?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thoughtfulness. What you all do in Europe is very thought provoking. My obedience no way compares. Thank you again. I am not sure all fully grasp the level some of our dogs comprehend a collar correction. It is almost the same as tug on a lead and that is the goal. That is my understanding at least.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> If you have all the answers, and can train your dog so much better than others, maybe you shouldn't come here asking for advice. And with the way you've responded to people who've offered their thoughts, don't be surprised if the next time you do come here and really need advice, you don't get very much.


You could take it that way or cut me some slack. Really, do I not say thank you? Did I not prove that? Did I cause drama in this thread until Paul accused me of that? Does not Darrin deserve a short succinct comment if he tests people and they know it? Is it not a valid point that that my dog stops on a whistle and handles? If I make a curt response about comparing my question to puppy obedience class, cut me some slack.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> My point has zero to do with what level a dog has been trained to...????
> 
> Their owners allowed them to get away with unacceptable behavior and as a result are losing ground when it comes to the dog have a respectful working relationship with them.


I fully grasp your point and it has zero to do with what level a dog as been trained to. I don't guess those dogs have handling on the agenda either. It is nothing personable. I had a point too that conflicted with yours, sorry and thank you.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> My dogs don't pee when we are training (retrieving) but when I am walking in the neighborhood for exercise (with my dog on a lead) i don't care if they pee. I think that is what DL was saying.


That's what I'm saying but I don't have close neighbors. It's a disadvantage if I have to go somewhere. People keep dogs close because they have to. I don't have to until I go somewhere.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

duk4me said:


> So did you get your answer DL?


I did, thanks. I do need to spare everyone my opinions but I am a individual as well. I'm into words to my detriment.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

119 posts on dog pee... Wow.
 
Don and Crew


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

DL said:


> The whole thing is pretty ridiculous.


Sure is. If I was looking for help I certainly wouldn't be carrying on the way you are when I get advice...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

DL said:


> Does not Darrin deserve a short succinct comment if he tests people and they know it? Is it not a valid point that that my dog stops on a whistle and handles?


Here's a "succinct" comment. 

If everything in your dog's life/routine sets him up to fail and you punish him for that failure, you're a pretty sh**ty trainer.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Apparently there is no problem. The dog is behaving exactly like the owner wants him too. There is much to learn about behaviors in this thread and as is almost always the case, its not canine behavior. 

/Paul


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Just got out of jail. Apparently my neighbor didn't appreciate me peeing on his tire. He shouldn't have rode by on his bicycle is all I got to say.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

I was trying to stay out of this but what if they are peeing or pooping in water? Or is for a different thread? Thanks


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Brad said:


> I was trying to stay out of this but what if they are peeing or pooping in water? Or is for a different thread? Thanks


We encourage that - less clean up!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Brad said:


> I was trying to stay out of this but what if they are peeing or pooping in water? Or is for a different thread? Thanks


Water freaking is a completely different topic.

/Paul


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Water freaking is a completely different topic.
> 
> /Paul


I totally thought he was kidding - not that I haven't seen it but..


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

gun_dog2002 said:


> apparently there is no problem. The dog is behaving exactly like the owner wants him too. There is much to learn about behaviors in this thread and as is almost always the case, its not canine behavior.
> 
> /paul


bingo!!!!!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Frankly DL, this response "marks" your final post count coup from me (pun intended).


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

DL, Here's some free advice. There will be responses to your questions. Some will be by knowledgeable people, some will be by inexperienced people, some will be clowns, and some will be know-it-alls. Read and accept the advice that you think will work for you. Then ignore the rest, say thank you and move on.
Your constant bickering is driving me away.
I think I may have given you this advice before, but not sure.

Good luck with your training.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Wayne Nutt said:


> DL, Here's some free advice. There will be responses to your questions. Some will be by knowledgeable people, some will be by inexperienced people, some will be clowns, and some will be know-it-alls. Read and accept the advice that you think will work for you. Then ignore the rest, say thank you and move on.
> Your constant bickering is driving me away.
> I think I may have given you this advice before, but not sure.
> 
> Good luck with your training.


What the heck Wayne? You gave me advice on here and I had to send you twenty bucks. whats up with that.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

So you and your dog have a problem with him Pizzing when running marks, this was you OG post

*Do you say "here" when they slow down to pee to see if they will speed up, and then say "here, nick, here" if they continue to pee and disregard the first command? Or is it "here, nick, here" when you see them slowing down to pee. Is the Nick low and possibly nagging or obviously aversive?*

Your responce to my post was this.

*I am getting ready to take my dog on a two mile walk with my dog and there will be no mail boxes. He will be off lead and he will pee wherever he likes. He will poop wherever he likes and I will not pick it up. He will come when he called and allow me to take things out of his mouth that I would not like him to swallow. He will not get close to the road I live 200 yards from. I don't disagree with your points, but some of you fail to realize I don't have a city dog. Before I elaborate and get attacked for it, does anyone see my point in that? Why would I care where a dog pees when I take a walk? He is fifty yards away from me most of the time. Why would I care if he is fifty yards away as long as he comes back when called? My training is on a flow chart for the largest part if that makes any sense. If you start taking it off the flow chart it starts to become unactionable and irrelevant to me.*

AND THIS

*As far as Mr. Caswell post, I think I get the point with that. He doesn't allow marking. My point is I have totally cared less about it. Does anyone get my point? Probably not. I get all the points.

*

Your are correct I don't let them MARK, I air them befor we leave the house, (and yes I do live in the country) but they don't get to run on there own, if and when we walk past a mail box I exspect them to pass by without pizzing on it, the point you didn't get was all of this carries over to training in the field, it boils down to you pizz on your own time not on mine, and don't forget you were the one who asked for advise... From what you have said if i was your dog Id'e pizz on your leg............


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

DL,

Well you've had a battering right enough, some of it deserved and some of it not, but what you have gained after an interminably long thread is an analysis of the root cause of this behaviour and some suggestions as to curing the symptoms. 

Just to recap, the probable cause is allowing the dog to set his own agenda for an hour every day and letting him see you as relatively unimportant, whilst developing bad habits; if you are allowing ill discipline on other occasions you'll be compounding the issue. As a collar trainer you've had advice on what to do in addressing the symptoms. Wouldn't be for me but that's show business.

I've gone back over your previous posts and you do seem to be struggling; if there is a common feature in them it's a lack of what might be called "dog sense". This isn't a crime, we all have to learn and we were all beginners once upon a time, but it's something you should be aware of and work to remediate. You've got the mechanics all right, the flow charts and structured training, all that kharzi, but you don't seem to be putting it into context.

The simplest way forward is to join a training group and think of yourself as an apprentice ..... not the dog, you. Some reflective reading time would help you too; get Joe Irvings "Gundogs, their learning chain" for a piece of enlightening study. If you drop me your postal address via PM I'll send you a copy of (no charge, it's a gift) "Gundog Sense and Sensibilty" by Wilson Stephens, both are full of doggy wisdom and will be very useful to you.

Best of luck,

Eug


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

DL said:


> I don't understand this. I walk. The dog stays in my general area because we have a bond and no one else is around and that is what we do every day. You all aren't comprehending that.


I see. Good luck to you and your dog.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Although not a man of any much religion I've always been informed by the parable of the sower; some does indeed fall upon stony ground. I fear we've lost *DL* which is a shame, the forum exists to help people. However there being none so deaf as them as won't hear .......

I had no response to my offer which I repeated via PM.

Pity, it should work better than this.

Eug


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