# cattle prod



## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Would you send your dog to a pro who had told you in conversation that he had used a cattle prod on a dog to get barking under control?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Yes, I would


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Yes, i would too ,,,


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Hoosier said:


> Would you send your dog to a pro who had told you in conversation that he had used a cattle prod on a dog to get barking under control?


Depends on how it came up in the conversation….did you see a prod and ask about it? Or did he bring it up as a point of pride….another depends with the information given.


FWIW….most cattle prods are not recommended for use on small calves. I personally would never use a cattle prod on a dog for any reason.


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Yes I have some years ago. No after effects. Cured the problem.


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## BROWNDOGG (Nov 26, 2005)

Yep, cured the problem two winter trips in a row. Now we need to keep it that way.
________
GM HIGH FEATURE ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS


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## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

excessive barking (excessive activity, that is) in a kennel or in any space for that matter can be very taxing on the dog, and therefore may warrant 'alternative' measures to ultimately protect the dog from himself. For example, a dog barking nonstop getting himself in a frenzy in 90 degree heat coupled with high humidity can be outright dangerous. i would jolt a dog rather than letting him overheat.

I think the real question is: would i trust my trainer with a cattle prod?

With some trainers- NO!.... with some YES!


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

flyntwt said:


> I think the real question is: would i trust my trainer with a cattle prod?












Also, cattle prods come in different powers (strength). The trainer has to know what he is doing!


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## Annette (Mar 21, 2004)

Yes you must trust your trainer. Of course you can also put bark collars on and it works. However the prod corrects the barking on the spot.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

And sometimes the dog turns on you. I've seen that reaction to a cattle prod.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Boot, shoot and electracute.....ahhh retriever training at it's finest !!!!!

JK


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Maybe it works. I personally find it reprehensible but that's just me I guess.


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

AmiableLabs said:


> Also, cattle prods come in different powers (strength).



I've never heard of different powers
they are all just as hot


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

while prods were used back in the day
today it is rarely used
and then only as a last resort
in fact, barking is about the only thing I can think it is used for any more
I rarely even see prods now-a-days

with todays training methods
training with out using a prod is far more effective than training with one

bottom line...
if a pro tells you he has a prod for barking control
and he has a truck full of barking dogs
I might think about looking for another pro

D


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Reading this it would appear several pros use cattle prods. So the prods work to correct barkers. Are we then planning to breed these barkers?? 

I'd never be comfortable with anyone using a cattle prod...guess my feelings for the dogs run too deep.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> I'd never be comfortable with anyone using a cattle prod...guess my feelings for the dogs run too deep.


That's how I feel. I am mushy like that....


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## crw910 (Mar 15, 2008)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> Reading this it would appear several pros use cattle prods. So the prods work to correct barkers. Are we then planning to breed these barkers??
> 
> I'd never be comfortable with anyone using a cattle prod...guess my feelings for the dogs run too deep.


To be honest, if I ever saw a trainer pull a cattle prod on my own pup I would probably take it and use it on him to see how he liked it...then again i am only a college student and quite protective of my pup....Ive seen several full grown bulls put up quite a fit about a cattle prod....i cant even imagine what a pup would do.....a shock collar is one thing....a cattle prod is another


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## dirtyrice (Oct 27, 2007)

I wonder just how great the difference is, if any, between a cattle prod and a high 6?


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## jefflab5 (Jan 15, 2008)

I worked on a farm when I was a kid and there was always one in the glove box of the truck. Mind you it wasn't one of those super size one's. It never failed, one of my other friends and I would start screwing around and yep somebody would get juiced.

It hurts like hell and scares the crap out of you. Now over time, I have "tested a buddies dog's Invisible fence collar, my dog's tritronics bark collar, e collar, and a few electric fences just to see "how bad" it really was and what I was doing to my dog. Ok, the invisible fence collar, bark collar, and electric fence were dares.

As I recall the cattle prod hurts a lot more. It makes sense if you think about it, an electrical stim device designed for a 1500 lb plus animal with a tough ass hide is just a wee bit different than a 90 lab or Suzy Smith's standard poodle. (I don't know any Suzy Smith). I don't have any hard facts here and I'm sure on this site there is someone with all the facts and could shed some light on the relative differences between what is accepted as normal training methods and what some may find to be too extreme. I realize there are different camps with strong opinions about e collars themselves.


So if I knew somebody was going to stick my dog with a cattle prod for training / control purposes, I would take my dog elsware. If I found this out after the fact, I'd be pissed.

I've always contended if people are new to ecollars they should be required to strap up and get a little sample of the red and black buttons at a few different levels just to see what they have the capability to do. Think about it, that is not that far fetched, the police departments make it part of their training with their tasers. 

Just my two cents.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Another one of the "ancient history" tools that worked......but we are better than that today.I don't condem anyone that chooses to still use them with their dogs but I dropped them a long time ago.I have been asked by friends to go fire up a dog on their truck,and have respectfully refused to.


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## jefflab5 (Jan 15, 2008)

Jay

You nailed it! I totally agree. Training philosophy and techniques have changed over time and more importantly, so has the technology. Ecollars are nothing more than scaled down cattle prods that can deliver the reinforcement at appropriate times and levels. 

Before the advent of the e-collar trainers had cattle prods, slingshots and BB guns as their training aids. I'm sure I've missed a few there.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

DeWitt Boice said:


> bottom line...
> if a pro tells you he has a prod for barking control
> and he has a truck full of barking dogs
> I might think about looking for another pro
> ...




Yep….if you have too many dogs to control barking without a prod you probably have too many dogs to train properly. You can get a good bark collar for $80 and they work like a charm. 


For those who advocates of the cattle prod I have a deal for them. I will let you hit me with your training collar but I get to nail you with a Hot Shot…Deal or No Deal? 



Give you a hint….I know two things going in:

1) I know who is going to hurt worse.
2) I know who is going to have more fun watching the other wince in pain.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I am appalled that such a tool is even considered on these pages. If we have not progressed any more than this in learning to communicate with these highly intelligent animals, we need to stop the game right now. If it takes this kind of brutality to achieve an end, you need another hobby or profession. 

With all the issues I have with line manners, vocalization, etc. if this was what it took to correct, my pup would be retired and lay around on the couch.

I too tried the invisible fence collar and my Flyway 50 on every level on myself before I put it on the dog. I want to know exactly what I am communicating when I push that button.

I find it equally reprehensible that popular trainers today still brag of being able to rattle a chain in their pocket to handle a dog due to repeated chain whippings, or to pull out a cigarette at the line that works because of the times they have burned the dog.

I understand the theory of force and working through pressure. If we turn to these other methods, we have failed miserably, and our dogs were not given to us to endure this.


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

The situation here was that he had 16 dogs on his truck and the dogs would start barking and I know mine would bark too. He said he hit one of the other ones with the prod. My dog hasn't been back since I heard that and he didn't really progress much under the trainer. If I knew he had used the prod on my dog, I would shove it up his ***!

I am training my dog myself now and he is doing really good and I am enjoying it.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

There are a lot of older methods that people today would find reprehensible, from everything I've read on the history of retriever training. 

There was a time when an E-collar wasn't what it is today either, and when whips BB guns and slingshots were used in certain phases of training.

An awful lot of dogs must have survived a cattle prod for it to have been used on such a widespread basis years ago. 

Personally I would take my dog away from someone who hasn't come up the curve in terms of modern tools and practices, but I'm not going to lose my mind over someone who hasn't. Not the trainer for my dog but who am I to judge? 

Can't be half a tree hugger and still shoot the flier regards,


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

I saw a guy using it after dark at a motel,and the dog tried to bite the prod.....the arcs lit up the inside of his mouth......thats where my personal decision was made.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

2tall said:


> I am appalled that such a tool is even considered on these pages. If we have not progressed any more than this in learning to communicate with these highly intelligent animals, we need to stop the game right now. If it takes this kind of brutality to achieve an end, you need another hobby or profession.


This is the way I feel also. Whenever I have seen this tool used, it literally makes me want to throw up. Improper use of a collar can be sickening too Never owned a prod, and never will. Bark collars do work well.


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## jefflab5 (Jan 15, 2008)

As I had stated in a prior post the cattle prod and other such "old school" methods are cruel to say the least. I'm sure we have all been witness or heard stories of people using today's technology in the same such manner. 

In regard to today's technology, it comes down to the human administering it. It can be just as cruel and harmful than those old school methods described. Just because it comes in a slick package with great marketing doesn't make it any less damaging in the wrong hands.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

An old time trainer asked me to use a cattle prod on his ~13 month old pup when she jumped up on me. I don't like dogs that jump on people so I agreed. He gave me the prod and let his pup out of the truck. I hit it with the prod on the chest when it jumped up on me. Dog didn't seem to react any more than if it had been hit by the collar. Dog didn't jump on me anymore either. I haven't been around the pup much but I believe her jumping on people days are over. I expect he had several different people make the same correction on her.

Honestly, the cattle prod seemed like a good tool for that. 

I don't own one, but I'm not completely condemning them either.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Prods used to control bvarking do not always do so. The side effects can be anything from a general lack of trust to a dog that becomes aggressive with people about it's kennel.

Currently have 2 dogs who had a prod used by PREVIOUS trainers. 
They are most likely damaged goods and will never recover.

LOTS of trainers use them.....used be surprised. Not just for barking either, returning with out bird, no go issues, steadyness issues, etc.

The use is not what I have a problem with it's the side effects.

In the 17 years I have had retrievers I used a prod once on 1 dog. 
Was trying to stop barking in an outdoor kennel, Went in with the prod stuck the dog said "quiet" the dog promptly, took the juice and since he had been in this rodeo before, reached up and grabbed the shaft, not the end, ripped it from my hand, and cornered me, the stand off was on. Slowly backed out of the kennel and let him keep the prod. 
That day we came to an agreement. 
I would not prod him, and he would not try to kill me for it. 
That was the last time I EVER used a prod on a dog, ANY dog. 

John


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Riverrun said:


> Again, the choice belongs to the owner:
> 
> Retire the barking dog
> Use a bark collar for the long-term which irritates the dog’s neck, causes them considerable mental stress, and doesn’t teach them to be quiet
> Resort to a couple of prod corrections and end up with a quiet dog


You make it sound like a no brainer, couple of good pops, problem solved. I can only speak from our experience, and I will say that we chose option #1 for a dog that had all-age points, many people would disagree, what a waste. Every one has to make choices they can live with, and define that line which they will not cross.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Riverrun said:


> [*]Use a bark collar for the long-term which irritates the dog’s neck, causes them considerable mental stress, and doesn’t teach them to be quiet
> [*]Resort to a couple of prod corrections and end up with a quiet dog[/LIST]




It may not teach them the command “quiet” but is they dang sure will teach them to be quite. I have two dogs that wear bark collars all day, every day when we are away from the house and we never have had sores…I have seen dogs with sores but I also know those dogs wore those collars for days on end without any relief.

I know clipping a dog with rat shot corrects breaking but I wouldn’t suggest doing that in today’s world of E Collars….Hot Shots are for moving cattle not training dogs…you people that would suggest using a Hot Shot on a dog will have PETA crawling up your asses sideways if you don’t wake the hell up.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

cakaiser;2805 Every one has to make choices they can live with said:


> This is what I mean. Not only make your own choice, but never fear to defend it. If you believe in something, don't stand by out of fear of ridicule. Walk the walk and don't be ashamed to have a strong belief.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

During our field trial years, we used a very respected trainer who had a cattle prod in his truck. As far as I know, it was used only in the infrequent event of a dog fight or occasionally when a dog was very vocal in the crate and other methods had failed to get the point across. In those days, I don't remember vocal dogs on the line or holding blind. I think that vocal dogs are something that have increased because of breeding. Some trainers "de-bark" them. It doesn't change their genes.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Yes, I think most pros, A list ones included, use prods on occasion, which I guess was the original question. Breaking up fights, I don't know, but the pro we use now uses bark collar for noisy truck dogs.


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

When I think of pain, I think of physical suffering
when I think of electricity I think of discomfort
when the electricity stops so does the discomfort 
there is no physical damage 
you can do far more damage to a dog by kicking or even slapping them with an open hand

A prod is a tool
if your dog is viscous
it is either because he was born viscous
or because you made him that way
don’t blame your abuse of a tool as the fault of the tool you use

people who say they are going to shove a prod up someones’ ass
sound like the abusive type
someone that looses his temper and takes it out on their dog
ignorant but judgmental


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## dirtyrice (Oct 27, 2007)

In my opinion a bark collar would help to create a collar-wise dog. Personally i don't know 1st hand because I don't have a barker, but I have seen dogs that are trained with bark collars and go ape-$hit the second the collar is gone and they think they can get away with it. How could this pattern not transcend over to trial day or test day and make the dog think they can get away with things they normally wouldnt? Im not condoning or condemning either the prod or the collar, merely asking a honest question that im sure i will get bashed for.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Yes I would.

Would you send your dog to a trainer that used a e-collar for the same offense? 

Like tool it can be used in a poor manner. Point is, do you trust the pro to do the right thing no matter what the issue or tool(s) being used.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I know of no pro that uses the prod for forcing, etc.

I know of no pro that does not have a prod on the truck to deal with barking dogs.

It is a tool, nothing more or less, and as such it is capable of good and of bad, depending upon the skill of the user.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Prod, cattle prod!!!!. 

Damm, the trainers better have good timing. 

I remember speaking to a slaughter yard owner (cattle) on the use of a prod, and its scientific results on the lesser quality of the meat due to stress.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Aussie said:


> Prod, cattle prod!!!!.
> 
> Damm, the trainers better have good timing.
> 
> I remember speaking to a slaughter yard owner (cattle) on the use of a prod, and its scientific results on the lesser quality of the meat due to stress.


I can remember several dinner plate sized bruises on various body parts from sword fighting Tommy Long with cattle prods. I'm with Patrick, the bunny huggers don't need us to supply them with ammunition, they can invent their own.

Light saber my butt regards

Bubba


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

I have also played swords with prods, bruises were the worst injuries I even got.

If you don't trust your Pro to use a prod do you really trust them?


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

Most pros keep a very low profile on this issue. One explained that he could nag the barkers for their entire lives with a bark collar and it would not solve the problem as they get collar wise, barking when it is off. The alternative is using the prod once or twice and the dog will get much less punishment in the long run. If the dogs do bark, the dogs know the sound of the prod humming and will immediately shut up.

I would never use one, but would use a pro I trusted that does.


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## Udder Brudder (Jan 15, 2003)

Todays catt;e prods are not the same of yesteryear. Today we have prods that nick just like the collar does. You can touch the burn button and let it go and it saves the charge for just a few seconds. This is a very handy tool just like the collar . If used correctly.


UB


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Here is my last comment on the issue. Yes, a prod is a tool. It is a piece of heavy farm equipment used to move very large animals for transport to slaughter. They do not "train" cows with it. A prod is not and never was a training device for dogs. If you can not manage the barking on your truck, you have a problem. Subjecting an animal that is supposedly your companion and friend to this kind of abuse is unforgiveable. Knowing that all training devices can be abused, why start out with a tool of this type? You can only plan to terrorize. I really don't care how competitive the game is, it is no longer a game I want to play when these tactics are used. 

I'm outta here.


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## Teri (Jun 25, 2003)

I have a serious question for those out there who feel cattle prods are useful tools for training--either regularly or on occasion. I am not interested in those who would only use it for barking.

I have seen first hand on more than one occasion as well as having heard several first hand accounts of cattle prod use. In all instances the usage was the same. Dog is tied to a solid object ( truck bumper) and the cattle prod is applied. The reason has always been the same, the dog 'needed to learn a lesson'. What NO ONE has ever told me is specifically what sort of lesson will a dog learn tied to the bumper while being prodded? I could understand if it was used for serious no-go; used during FF; or something where it was used as a 'really hot collar' /cause-effect methodology. Instead it's use seems to be tied to anger & frustration by the trainer.

No, I do not own a prod, nor have I ever used one. I have yet to encounter a situation where I felt a prod would be of use to me but I will never say never to a training tool. But every time I have heard/seen it's use it seems simply abusive.

If someone would enlighten me I would appreciate it--pm is fine.

Teri


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

At first I was going to avoid this thread at all cost because of very strong feelings on the subject. But after private conversations with someone who also has posted on this thread, I have come to understand that my opinion and my experience is important, and though it may differ from others, it is valid and worth expression.

I am very much AGAINST the use of a cattle prod except maybe in the most dire of circumstances, and then the user had better be pretty adept at handling it, because as in the case of one poster, when in a rush of adrenaline, the prod is now in the possession of the dog, you are pretty much screwed. What did that accomplish?

Most of you who advocate the use of the cattle prod say it is to curb barking. Shouldn’t the cessation of barking be part of the obedience regimen up front? Don’t people who send their dogs to Pros incorporate teaching a dog to be “quiet” right from puppyhood? Even in the obedience classes my husband teaches, the first class always includes no barking, no jumping, no digging. These are basic behavior issues. 

One of my dogs left here for a trainer, obedient and a non barker. Much later, I was told by someone else that a cattle prod had been used on him for barking. Also a heeling stick had been broken over him. The dog that we brought home was NOT the same dog that we sent. His spirit was broken and his self confidence was destroyed. He didn’t trust people and in his eyes, there was so much worry and pain particularly if someone new came near him until I reassured him. Even recently, on two occasions, someone with the similar body structure and voice as the trainer came near him, and that horrible look came into his eyes again and he gave that person a wide berth. Does that tell me all I need to know? Now, a year later, he is a happy confident dog again but it took a lot of work to achieve that and it isn’t always totally gone. He is running events again and having great successes and adores his new trainer but it wasn’t easy and it isn’t totally complete.
Yes, I believe my dog did become a barker, and broke out of his kennel and was a hard one to train. But, when a dog respects someone, he will work well for that person. Dogs read human body language and human emotions ten to a hundred times quicker than we can read them. And some really smart confident dogs enjoy pushing human buttons to the fullest while others suffer in silence and withdraw. Do I despise this person for what they did to my dog as well as other dogs? Oh yes, but I firmly believe “What goes around, comes around” and it is!!!!

Arleen


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> A prod is not and never was a training device for dogs.


I disagree. It's been used on dogs since long before I got into this game.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Hoosier said:


> Would you send your dog to a pro who had told you in conversation that he had used a cattle prod on a dog to get barking under control?


Of course there are the exception dogs on many trucks but I mean in general, as a group, how do the dogs look? when they run in a trial? In training? Do they seem "happy", enthusiastic, love to retrieve, love to work, healthy? Are they successful in their venue? Then do you honestly think the pro "abuses" the dogs because of a tool in his tool-chest?


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

> *Aussie* wrote I remember speaking to a slaughter yard owner (cattle) on the use of a prod, and its scientific results on the lesser quality of the meat due to stress.


I know, I used a cattle prod on a dog once and he tasted like crap.

Bubba, you crack me up.

Seriously though, I only use a cattle prod on request, I keep it hanging in the closet next to the handcuffs and the leather hood.

Don't Judge me *you people* are the ones using them on dogs regards,
Light saber my butt, ROTFLMBO!

Terry


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

I come from an era before E collars
then a prod was in every trainers tool box
when I first got into this game I used the prod on myself
on my leg
I would not use it on a dog before I knew what it was like

......Later I was offered $500.00 if I could hold on to the prod for 5 seconds
I was a young kid
I wanted that $500.00
Mind over matter, right?
I don’t think it can be done
no matter how you hold it you pull away
you may not let go of the button
But I couldn’t hold on

one day I walked in to a cattle supply store
they had two different types of prod
I wanted to know which was hotter
I took one off the wall, put the electros in my hand nd pushed the button
the clerk started laughing
I took the other off the wall and tried it
I started laughing, “they feel the same”


a prod feels a lot like an E fence
the high setting on a collar
the short circuiting into the handle of my last prod
(thrown out over a decade ago) 
the 120V running through the wiring in you house
but nothing like 288V which I’ve been hit with twice
(wow, that will knock you off your ladder)

I keep seeing posts from you righteous blathers 
giving examples of cruelty with a prod
people some times spank their kids
some times it is punishment 
other times it is abuse
the fact that you can not tell the difference is what is appalling.
The fact that you have never been around a large pack of dogs is evident.
You talk out of ignorance not experience
and I am happy you are so impressed with you training abilities.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Hard for me to understand how some people would condemn the use of a prod under any and all circumstances

And other people would put a dog down immediately for biting

Still others would never bred to a carrier of CNM

When did the world become so black and white and devoid of gray?


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

First, and foremost for me to say: I am *not *a professional trainer.

Second, in my limited experience (compared to many of you), a Lab (particularly) is not a breed that requires being "beaten on," whether verbally or physically. Too high an e-collar setting...overuse of a heeling stick...jerking the crap out of them with a choke or pinch collar...screaming at them when they screw up or have a "bonehead puppy moment"...all of those are, in my (again) comparatively inexperienced position, unnecessary and counterproductive.

Sure, a stern, authoritative and sometimes forceful position is vital in the training process...but a freakin' CATTLE PROD??? Not for anyone I know well, and sure as hell not for _MY_ dog. Sorry to be such a "newbie," but get real! We have tools and techniques available to us today that cause less stress and less pain, and result in better dogs, than using cattle prods or shooting them in the ass with a load of #9s!

Damn. It's hard to believe that there are still such dinosaurs out there. That said, you're welcome to take your best shot at me if you believe that inflicting pain is the best way to train a dog. I guarantee you it'll take a hell of a lot more than a cattle prod to make me change _MY_ mind!


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Hard for me to understand how some people would condemn the use of a prod under any and all circumstances
> 
> And other people would put a dog down immediately for biting
> 
> ...


I don't know that the world is so black and white,rather some just have lines they choose not to cross when it comes to our animals. I grew up on a cow ranch, was in the horse business for many years, including racing, and saw and found acceptable, at the time, things that I certainly wouldn't find acceptable today. However I was younger then and could rationalize questionable practices much better then I can today. Maybe I won't have the next AFC or even MH dog, the dream of getting a horse to a major stakes race is a distant memory. I will enjoy the fact that both my dogs and horses will enjoy the time we have to spend together without putting them in a situation that I believe is just not necessary. That's good enough for me.


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

Devlin

show me even one post where anyone has advocated "beating on"
or any other form of discipline
I haven't even seen where or how a prod might be used
your limited experence must be in reading
where exactly are these dinosaurs you are talking about?
your holyer than thow attitude is remarkable
I only hope we can all live up to your standards


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Come on.......look up positive punishment.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Mr. Boice we all decide where we draw the line. You have drawn it at cattle prods. I have drawn it at the e-collar. Some folks can't draw the line that far. That line is what our conscience can live with. No one can dictate another's conscience. *We must all respect that.*
That said, if a blue ribbon that will be discarded with the garbage when you die is worth using a cattle prod on a loyal companion then by all means go for it, but I'm not going there.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Teri said:


> I have seen first hand on more than one occasion as well as having heard several first hand accounts of cattle prod use. In all instances the usage was the same. Dog is tied to a solid object ( truck bumper) and the cattle prod is applied. The reason has always been the same, the dog 'needed to learn a lesson'.


I will reserve judgement on using a prod on an incessant barker when all other methods have failed, although I cannot forsee a situation where I would use one. Having said that, what you described sounds like abuse, plain and simple. If the dog has done something wrong and you go tie it up and shock it, there is no way it is going to connect the undesired behavior to the greatly delayed shock. It just isn't going to happen.



Teri said:


> Instead it's use seems to be tied to anger & frustration by the trainer.


That is certainly what it sounds like (the events you have seen) and any time we take out our anger or frustration on a dog, it is a lose/lose situation for everyone concerned and a piss poor way to attempt to train a dog. I've made the mistake before as most of us surely have (not with a prod, but acting in anger/frustration), but it was unfair and unproductive (even counter productive) and I certainly hope to never do it again. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about prods, quirts, riding crops, heeling sticks, e-collars, pinch collars, choke collars, sling shots, bird shot, bb guns, feet or hands, if you are making a "correction" in anger and frustration then you are misusing whatever training tool you are employing. Back to the subject of a pro with a prod, I guess I'd rather that they had a prod for incessant barkers than to have a sling shot, shotgun or bb gun for use on the dog under any circumstances.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I agree with Ted. I have seen every experienced competing pro I know use a prod on a rare occasion for a particular problem on a particular dog in a non-abusive manner as a tool. I swore I would never use it but I did once on a timed correction. It worked extremely well and I wasted 2 years of time and money not using it. I think there a place for it and you have to trust your pro.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

DEDEYE said:


> That's how I feel. I am mushy like that....


That is my feeling, mushy too, as I previously stated, have never owned a prod, and never will. Not all such decisions are reached through ignorance or inexperience. Certainly have had dogs with pros that, on occasion, use prods, they are the expert, I am not. But, they are not to use them on my dog, would much prefer to just take the dog home. If that makes me a bleeding heart, tree hugger, so be it.


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## FetchExpress (May 31, 2006)

Scenerio.........

Pup at 7 weeks barking and carrying on...is taught speak on command and quiet on command. Continue on with this training. However in kennel pup doesnt get it. Pup wants out to work. Outside of kennel never any noise. Pups gets it.

You get a can on pennies...shake everytime said pup barks in kennel. Works 2 times and then Nothing. You get a water bottle and spray said pup. Pup likes this to.

A person tries everything they have heard. Earthquakes, lip pinching...everything you have ever heard or read. Pup gets to be about 4 months. Buy citronella bark collar. House smells really really good but dog still barks. Buy a bark collar. Come with 1/2 plug.1 plug, 2 plug, 3 plug.........call company and ask if they have anything hotter. Dog stands in kennel and braces self then barks. By now you have a good $3000 in time time, equipment, and effort in invested in said pup. Said pup goes 4 for 4 at JR, 4 for 4 at Sr. and jammed several derbies, won club trophies. Talented young dog.

Dog is right at 2 now. What do you do?

Retire the dog? Euthanize the dog? BUild a sound proof kennel? Or do you go the distance.

I was taught that love sometimes requires us to do the tough things. I am betting that 95% of anyone who might have ever needed to add a prod to their tool list did so very reluctantly. I have met very few dog people who seem to take pleasure in any correction they give to a dog. These same people have kids that also require correction from time to time. They would prefer not to use any correction ever..but understand sometimes you do what ever it takes to get the point across. Once in a while you get a stubborn kid or dog that wants to push the limits on everything. They might pick one issue like barking or drugs if it is a kid. Parent takes said kid to rehab. At rehab kid is tied down and perhaps given forces meds while they are drying out. I dont hear anyone saying how awful it is to do that to a human. They are a victim. They have a disease. A dog that sits and barks like that....I think is addicited to the adrinaline of wanting to work. 

You all can laugh at me or think I am nuts for comparing the 2 together. BUt I do know that I will always and forever TEACH FIRST, make sure the understanding is there, and then correct as needed. I start with a harsh no (YES NO can be a correction depending on context), and move up as I need to. Here is to hoping and praying that it never reaches that point.

Just my 2 cents


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

That about covers it.


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

DeWitt Boice said:


> Devlin
> 
> show me even one post where anyone has advocated "beating on"
> or any other form of discipline
> ...


(1) I used the phrase "beaten on" _in quotes_ to emphasize a point
(2) Read the previous posts to recognize how the prod is and has been used
(3) My "limited experience must be in reading" is certainly not the case, but perhaps yours is (see the above response)
(4) My reference to "dinosaurs" may have been a little overstated, but I stand by my statement that we're fortunate to "have tools and techniques available to us today that cause less stress and less pain, and result in better dogs, than using cattle prods or shooting them in the ass with a load of #9s!"
(5) Suggesting that my attitudes are "holyer" than "thow" is ridiculous; I'm as entitled to my opinions as you are, or as anyone else is...did I hit a nerve with that one?
(6) My standards are exactly that: _my_ standards. I set them, I live, train and hunt by them...and when I disagree with someone, I say so without berating them or resorting to name calling.

Thanks for your oh-so-insightful response to my post.


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

You people still don’t get it
this is not about winning blue ribbons
or the ingenious ways you have stopped your “puppy” from barking

walk into any boarding kennel any where in the world
one dog starts barking and they all start barking
it is pack mentality
you can put bark collars on every dog and they will just bark through it

A pro that packs up with 20+ dogs and goes out on the road
he spends weeks living out of motels
and the dogs live in the parking lots of those motels
if a motel guest gets out of their car at 2:00 AM
those dogs better not be barking all night long

taking your water bottle out to spray the dogs is not going to help
nobody likes to use it
nobody even wants to use it
it is used because it is the only thing that works in some instances
but you can’t ignore barking and hope it goes away

many of you seem to be living in your own idealistic little world
you poke your head out once in a while and condemn everything you see or hear
if you choose not to use a prod, fine
but I would be willing to bet that most Pros get far more out of their dogs with far less pressure than you put on your dog.


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

DeWitt Boice said:


> walk into any boarding kennel any where in the world
> one dog starts barking and they all start barking
> it is pack mentality
> you can put bark collars on every dog and they will just bark through it


Well, you haven't been in my boarding kennels. 23 - 5' x 10' kennels in a building. Ocassionally one or two dogs will bark when someone comes in. All I say loudly is "Quiet" and you can hear a pin drop. In fact people are amazed at how quiet our kennels are. You mentioned in an earlier post about not having large numbers of dogs all out together. Yes, I do. They all play out together. Occasionally one or two get a little rough. A firm "Knock it Off" works at this kennel. I know this may be the exception, but it works if you establish rules and stick to them consistently. 

I do not own a prod, would never use one, but I have on very rare occasions used a collar on a dog for corrective purposes. A knick or two and we are all back in line. I guess I have just been lucky. So don't speak in assumptions about everyone. You are showing your ignorance.

Arleen


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

FWIW....the Pro Bull Riders (PBR) have banned the use of Hot Shots at all events. 

If a bunch of cowboys can figure out how to handle wild bulls without Hot Shots maybe these pro trainers can figure out how to keep dog from barking with out one as well. 

I know we have our dogs barking under control at my house and while I own several prods I would never use one on any of my dogs....oh...even broke up a pretty good fight the other day without using a prod and I only have one good leg....is it just me or do some people seem to be on both sides of this issue?




btw, http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25609


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## labdoc (Apr 18, 2003)

DeWitt Boice said:


> You people still don’t get it
> this is not about winning blue ribbons
> or the ingenious ways you have stopped your “puppy” from barking
> 
> ...



Nothing personal but it struck me real funny that a Boulderite was endorsing this type of discipline. ;-)

I think I would rather be hot shotted on the rump than shocked with an e-collar on high around my neck.

I see clients daily that have tried all the "proven" methods without success. To me a hot shot that works is much better than a debarking surgery that doesn't. I don't do either, for the record. Solve the barking while young and this is rarely a problem in my experience.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

labdoc said:


> I see clients daily that have tried all the "proven" methods without success. To me a hot shot that works is much better than a debarking surgery that doesn't. I don't do either, for the record. Solve the barking while young and this is rarely a problem in my experience.


According to some on this thread, there should never be a problem with barking. According to those, if you train the pup from the beginning about noise there will not be a problem when they grow up and go to school. That is a nice thought - in the abstract.

However, few pros are involved in the upbringing of their charges. 

Frequently, they are given dogs with problems. And they are now responsible for fixing a problem not of their making. Barking is one of those problems.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Title: Positive punishment

There are three ways to make punishments work even a little bit in dog training. 

Heavily abbreviated!!!!!!!!


(1) One is to catch the very first trial with a well-timed, large punishment. Often there will never be a second trial. This way there is no reward history to contend with, and when the animal poses the question "what's different?" (i.e. what predicted this punishment), the answer will inevitably be the behavior itself. That was the new part. So, in this case, the question works for you rather than against you.

(2) Another way to make punishment more effective is to employ a warning cue which goes in front of each and every instance of large, perfectly timed punishments. 

(3) The third way to make punishment a more valid tool is to use it (still and always with a warning cue) in close conjunction with other techniques, such as counterconditioning and rewarding the absence of a behavior. 

Newbies: Without good mentors, I suggest purchasing one or two theory books. Helps to clarify why dogs do what they do.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Dogs do what they do because they are dogs !!!!! Animals.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Dogs do what they do because they are dogs !!!!! Animals.


For sure. Always wanted to initiate a thread, just how smart we think dogs really are. And their thinking ability. 

I have never used a cattle prod on a dog, but certainly wish I had one applied to my person from time to time, when making past training errors.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I know of no pro that uses the prod for forcing, etc.


 
I do. In fact, that "pro" is mentioned at times on this very board, and it makes me ill. I will never forget pulling up down south just as now FC Honor was being forced on "back" because "Back means Back" to run a cold blind. He was 10 months old, and had not been through pattern blinds yet. His ears were every which way, and he had no idea what he had done wrong. Keep in mind, he's one of the most biddable "suck-ups" you'd ever want to meet. It was that day i made my decision to get him out of there, and he went to north Texas to be with Greg Bartlett.

To me, that prod was being used was a sign of pure laziness. To skip pattern blinds was just a blatant and poor attempt to skip a big portion of training. And, that skip in training had a poor effect on numerous dogs whose owners never questioned the use of the prod without the patterns, sight blinds, etc. I know of one dog who, 5-6 years later, when hearing those words "dead bird" will literally crawl up your butt, bugging. Lot of good that skip in training did her. She was re-trained on "Where's George?" - wing clipped pigeons we used to get her to try and run a cold blind, but she was never the same dog that used to run like a raped ape. 

For those of you who think they are good for barking, I tried it on one dog who is and was a chronic barker/screamer. It didn't work. His lines are chronic noise makers, and his death scream continues to this day. Beating him into the ground would not have made a difference. I only hit him in the hock, using the biggest portion of the muscle. A tri-tronics bark collar was the best purchase I made with this dog. 

And lastly, I know of one "death by prod pole" incident, used on a retriever for barking. The person hit it in the chest, and its heart stopped.

So, my prod sits in the corner, without batteries, collecting dust.

I am now a converted tree-hugger. You guys can keep your prod poles. And, if you want mine, you can have it.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Susan
Thanks for that, you expressed it so well, some of the things I have seen as well are just flat out wrong, and to this day can't even stand to think of it. If we ever own a dog that can't be trained by methods I consider acceptable, that dog will not be trained. Converted tree-hugger also


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## dirtyrice (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm not trying to advocate the prod or condone it, but many of the references in this thread to the use or misuse of the prod could just as easily be said about other training tools..... ex.- The dog was tied to the bumper and ________ (burned/whipped) with a _________ (e-collar, stick, etc) because he needed to be shown who the boss was (or whatever was said). Obviously the pressure applied thru use of a prod is substantially more than the other tools, but the point I am trying to make is that the true problem lies within the trainer and not the tool. If you tie a dog to a bumper and beat him or burn him just to "tune him up" as some might say, how can you really point to the prod as the culprit when the dog turns up with fear or trust issues and the same result would probably be obtained thru beating him with a stick in this manner. The mere connection to me is ludicrous. Just swatting a dog with a rolled up newspaper can produce profound effects which shows that dog training and the use of pressure for correction is greatly psychological. So in that regard ANY correction when misapplied or misused can be harmful. The point I am trying to make is it is not the tool that should be criticized but the craftsmen.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Hard for me to understand how some people would condemn the use of a prod under any and all circumstances
> 
> And other people would put a dog down immediately for biting
> 
> ...


Would you please clarify? What do you mean by being devoid of gray?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

dirtyrice said:


> it is not the tool that should be criticized but the craftsmen.


While this is a good point in theory, and I would agree if we were talking about prong collars and choke chains, my point would be that some "tools" lend themselves to abuse more than others. This is one of them. It more readily allows someone to "go too far."


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## cgoeson (Jan 22, 2008)

Barry said:


> Would you please clarify? What do you mean by being devoid of gray?


you know... not black or white...


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

The bottom line is, sure, there are some very competent trainers,who, on occasion, may have effective use of a prod, it would be naive to think otherwise. This group of trainers,in my mind, is quite small. Most people do not fall into this category. I find disturbing the notion that a couple of jolts, problem solved, maybe yes, maybe the dog is destroyed. I have taken this stand because I don't believe most people have any business being anywhere near a prod, myself included.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

cgoeson said:


> you know... not black or white...


Bingo

I am not a big believer in absolutes


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> The bottom line is, sure, there are some very competent trainers,who, on occasion, may have effective use of a prod, it would be naive to think otherwise. .


This is my point precisely.

Not 

Everyone should use one (Black)
Everyone should not use one (White)
But, in the right hands it is an effective tool (Grey)


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## dirtyrice (Oct 27, 2007)

JusticeDog said:


> While this is a good point in theory, and I would agree if we were talking about prong collars and choke chains, my point would be that some "tools" lend themselves to abuse more than others. This is one of them. It more readily allows someone to "go too far."



And this is precisely why the responsibilty falls upon the trainer, whether pro or amateur, to not "go too far," which falls back to my point that the trainer is the protagonist and not the prod.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Obviously, not many in the string have worked around cattle or, should I say, worked around people who work cattle or both. Cattle prods have probably been used on just as many people as they have cattle and dogs alike. I have been hit with them many times. It is really funny when you are the one doing the proding. I would explain the feeling as being about the same as a training e-collar. As with any form of correction, the recipient of correction must understand the reason for the correction. This is what makes someone a "trainer". The ability to teach, correct and explain what exactly you want from your dog. Some folks are better "trainers" than others. Other just read books watch training DVD's then go spew their endless knowledge on what they know about training. 

Dogs require correction for unacceptable behaviors in the same manner children do. You would be amazed how quickly children behave when a cattle prod is pulled out Just like children, the level of unacceptable behavior each owner/parent is willing to tolerate and their personal method of correction is their choice. Have you ever sat down to a nice dinner and some couple brings in their unruly 5 year old? They sit there and think it is cute the kid is crawling under your table grabbing your silver and just being a pain in the ass? Well, When your dog barks incessantly and jumps on everyone, not everyone thinks it is cute. You want to back hand the dog as much as you wanted to back hand the 5 year olds' parents at the restaurant for not correcting their kid or, even bringing him there in the first place. 

If, the person is a reputable pro, you are confident with them, they know your dogs' personality and have spent time with your dog, there isn't a thing wrong with a cattle prod. They run on AA batteries. People who comment negatively about them probably have never picked one up in their life or tested it on themselves. I have a sensitive CBR. I always check the level of simulation on the e-collar on my arm before using it on her. It is just a little wake up, not a french fry festival BUT, some dogs need strong correction and disregard just about every method. This is when you trust a pro or veteran dog person for advice. 

When your beloved dog is heavily corrected, it is uncomfortable for everyone. The results of correction properly administered is quick and productive. Why go through with saying no bark for 6 months when you can give the dog some uncomfortable response for the negative behavior and solve the problem in a week? Not sure about the rest of you, I will go for the week, I think it is far more humane than being a complete nag about one little problem for 6 months. Dogs lives are short, keep their corrective training short and you will have a happier dog who can produce in the field. 

Just my two cents---PG


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Having been around this game for a few years or so, and have seen first hand the abuse and misuse of prods and e-collars. I really can't believe what I am reading here. For the person who likes to strap on the e-collar to see how it works to the one who shocks himself with the cattle prod to see what kind of effect it will have just makes me laugh. Good thing you didn't see the old pro trainers using the 12 ga.shot gun in training and not for shooting the flyers, or the use of 22 cal. rat shot and not for shooting snakes or rats. Or how about the use of wrist rockets or sling shot's with marbles or steel ball bearings. Or how about hanging them up and beating the BJESUS out of them to make them understand. Makes me wonder what you would do to see how these things would feel.

Does anyone here think that any of these methods are inhumane? Does anyone here think that the e-collar is inhumane? I think it's all inhumane but some worst then others and it all depends on the user, and that includes the e-collar which in the hands of the wrong person is nothing more than a radio controlled hammer with a two mile handle. Hence the question for Ted about the gray area.

Dogs only know what they are taught. Dogs misbehave or do what they do because they haven't been taught or don't understand what you want. with that being said, anyone wishing to use the prod for a training tool have at it, it opens up a whole new world of training, or should I say a can of worms for you. Don't think that there won't be any repercussions from it. 

For the barking problem solver don't ever turn your back on poor fido, don't think for one minute that poor little fido isn't waiting to get back at you. You will open up that kennel door one day and he will take some of your arm off when you least expect it.

For those of you that want to force your dog with it, or force the dog into the water with it, it will work but you also get into the worst of bolting situations that even the collar won't cure, or you will build up such a resentment towards the water that the dog will never go in, or the best case scenerio the dog won't even want to come near you again and you will probably have to go looking for him.

Shot gunning had a real effect on dogs sitting on the whistle at a good distance. Or rat shot for the breaker. They didn't even want to be around a gun or would blink birds or come up with a little known thing called lead poisoning. 

Make no mistake about it, all of these things have been tried by some of the most repeatable trainers as a last resort, all for the sake of trying to be competitive in the trial world. The old saying shoot, boot and electrocute was the moto of the day in the 60's and 70's. And believe me if you trained for trials that's what you did. The 12 ga shotgun was just as prevalent in those days as was the prod for trying to cure certain behavioral problems.

With the collars of today and the intensity levels what makes people think they need a prod. It's pure laziness. With all the available knowledge through active pro's, books, DVD's, training forums and the like makes me wonder about all the people I'm hearing on this thread weather or not they should even be training their own dog.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Barry

The original question was about a PRO using the collar for BARKING.

My answer then and now is that I know many pros who use the prod to address barking. With those pros, I have no concern about abuse. PERIOD.

That is all I have said. PERIOD.

Ted


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Barry said:


> ..,...
> The old saying shoot, boot and electrocute was the moto of the day in the 60's and 70's. And believe me *if you trained for trials that's what you did.* The 12 ga shotgun was just as prevalent in those days as was the prod for trying to cure certain behavioral problems.
> 
> .....


Barry, You need to qualify your remarks! Broad statements like you have made are irresponsible.
I qualified 2 dogs in 1968 and I have NEVER shot a dog!

JS


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> FWIW....the Pro Bull Riders (PBR) have banned the use of Hot Shots at all events.


I was just doing some reading on this subject, and I do not think that is entirely correct.

You are not allowed to use them on horses at all. And you are only allowed to use them on cattle for the purposes of control, but not to encourage bucking out of the gate.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I laugh yes, having worked on an horse and cattle ranch for a few summers and grew up with professional calf ropers in my neighborhood who had a large herd of cattle to practice roping on, I know what a cattle prod feels like. 

Wanting to know the level of stimulation my dog will accept, I have put the collar on my arm and do so when I am considering adjustments. I think it is only fair. 

I am learning from an old field trial pro of 65 years and have heard all the methodology and results from using shot guns, shot pistols and various other devises. Any tool in the wrong hands is just that, the wrong tool. 

Back to square one, if you question the method, you either are not experienced enough to use it, morally object to it or, need to have someone else who is experienced do it for you. (the same mentality which goes along with the force fetch, you like the result but, can't take doing it yourself) 

Bottom line is knowing what you have in your dog. Some dogs handle high pressure and some can't take high pressure. Anyone who has trained dogs understands this concept. No question that the e-collar in the wrong hands is destructive. The cattle prod is no different and the correction is accompanied by a command which can be useful should you have a dog which likes to talk on the line or in the holding blind.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Also, cattle prods are typically used to move cattle through pens, gates and load on trucks. Just like the collars, there are many different prods available in different power levels. You wouldn't use a hot prod on a young calf but, you might on an old bull. Same as knowing your dogs sensitivity level and what he/she can take.


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## Twolabsplus (Aug 29, 2004)

Sometimes the electricty IS the problem.

I say "NO" cattle prod.... At least it wouldn't
be worth it to me....


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

Their are alot of pros that use Prods for barking and thats it. I guarantee their been more than just a hand full of field champions that been lit up with a prod. I have no problem with it in the right context. I remember I flew to Texas to interview for an assistant training position many years ago and witnessed some of the most brutal training Ive ever seen in my life doing obedience with a prod. I of course decided that wasn't for me. I grew up in a rodeo family and around ranching and cows all my life and ive owned quit a few cattle prods in my day. For you none cattle folks they are used for moving cattle not to promote bulls to buck as stun guns or bolts of lightning death. Ive been zapped more times than I care to think. My girlfriend would say that explains alot. The ban of hot shot at rodeos was to make Peta happy and folks that don't understand their use. They are still used when needed to move cows forward in the shoots. I personally think they work great for some dogs and some it wouldn't matter if you shot them with a bolt of lightning. In a perfect world everyone would nip the barking habit in the but before they made it to far but that's not the case and that nasty little habit gets formed.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Barry
> 
> The original question was about a PRO using the collar for BARKING.
> 
> ...


The original post#1 was would you send your dog to a pro that told you they would make use of the prod to control barking as I understood it. Your post #2 stated that you would. 

And I have stated that it is all abuse in one form or another. We seem to agree on the fact that it is all in the hands of the user. 

I was speaking about what I know to be true practices of certain individuals and the way training used to be in years past. Weather or not you have no concern about abuse with people who you know who use the prod is really irrelevant. I don't know where you are coming from with the " That's all I have said. Period " quote. 

Did I take anything that you said out of context? Did I not understand something that you said? What?


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

JS said:


> Barry, You need to qualify your remarks! Broad statements like you have made are irresponsible.
> I qualified 2 dogs in 1968 and I have NEVER shot a dog!
> 
> JS


I don't believe these statements to be irresponsible. Just because you didn't use any of these fine training tools doesn't mean that they didn't exist, and were not used.


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

I'll give my two cents on this since this thread is going on and on. I feel that mybe in the early days of training a prod could be used. I think with the new bark collars there is no need to us a prod. Prods are for farm animals not dogs. If the wrong tree hugger was to see the us of a prod I feel that it would become issue. Like we need to bring more to the sport them we already have!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Barry
There are dogs out there that are so unruley that conventional methods (gentile yet firm) do not do any thing. 

Excessive barking is a sign of unstability in a dog. That one little problem in its self can cause that dog to bite at an unpredictable time ,,or even provoke nice mannored dogs to want to kill and eradicate the unstable behavior.

Any tool can be use effectively and humane or ineffectively and inhumane.

There are times when hanging a dog is appropriate. But usually not needed. Do we poo poo hanging all together or do we accept that on rare occassions its needed.
I don't own a prod because I know other ways of dealing with the problem and that seems like to much work for me anyway.. Up and down ,,up and down.

I watched a knee replacement on tv once and it was tough to watch.
The doctor sawed off a bone with a circular saw and with a rubber mallot pounded a metal rod into the end of it. WOW ! That was extreme,,,but the end result was the lady had no more pain and walked just fine.

Sometimes extreme measures are needed to salvage a dog.

I am not talking about a dog that gets excited because he can't control his brain waiting in the hole while other dogs are working. There are dogs who never stop barking. They bark in their sleep.

Excessive,constant barking is likened to a bad knee thats in dire need of fixing.
Do we keep putting salve on that knee or do we roll up our sleeves and pound away.

Each person has their perception of what is going on.
If a drunk driver ran off the road and hurt someone
Some would blame the car manufacurer,.. some would blame the city for not enough street lights,,,,some would blame the pedestrian for being out at night in the wrong place like "what were you doing on a dark lonley street at those hours of the night,,,, some would blame alcohole manufactures and others would blame the drunk.

Our perceptions don't always line up with reality.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Barry said:


> Did I take anything that you said out of context? Did I not understand something that you said? What?


Barry, in truth, I really don't understand what you are saying anymore.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Barry said:


> Does anyone here think that any of these methods are inhumane? Does anyone here think that the e-collar is inhumane? *I think it's all inhumane* but some worst then others and it all depends on the user, and *that includes the e-collar which in the hands of the wrong person is nothing more than a radio controlled hammer with a two mile handle*. Hence the question for Ted about the gray area.


Barry,

We hail from the same era. You may, indeed, have been at it prior to my beginning in the mid 70's. But I've seen and heard the things you cited from that period.

I wasn't planning on making any comment in this, as many have offered reasoned responses throughout this thread. But I'm wondering if you would specifically state if you believe that e-collar use, or any aversive for that matter, is humane - no matter who the user is? It seems in your posts that it's only a matter of how abusive or inhumane it is to use such things, in your view. But I may have misunderstood you, and wanted to ask you directly because many impressionable new trainers lurk here, so I would like not to misquote you or take your statements out of context.

Evan


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Pete said:


> There are times when hanging a dog is appropriate. But usually not needed. Do we poo poo hanging all together or do we accept that on rare occassions its needed.


Are you serious? Can you give us an example? HANGING???? You don't mean picking up by the shoulders and lookin' the dog in the eyes do you?




Pete said:


> I watched a knee replacement on tv once and it was tough to watch.
> The doctor sawed off a bone with a circular saw and with a rubber mallot pounded a metal rod into the end of it. WOW ! That was extreme,,,but the end result was the lady had no more pain and walked just fine.


Not sure why this was added as I'm sure the knee replacement was done while the individual was anesthetized...

This has obviously become an emotional thread for some... could we all please take a moment to read what we're writing and think for a second before we hit the send button? I'm sure our anti friends are lovin' this one.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Barry said:


> I don't believe these statements to be irresponsible. Just because you didn't use any of these fine training tools doesn't mean that they didn't exist, and were not used.


I am not disputing that these tools existed or were used ... of course they were.
You said _everyone_ used them. That is not true.

Back on topic, most trainers I know with a trailer full of dogs has a prod on board, though you may not see it often. For those of you who condemn them categorically, if you have a dog or two in the back of your Burb, you probably should have a handle on the barking using less extreme measures. But a chronic barker on a truck can set off the whole bunch and create problems in dogs that otherwise were quiet. That's a little tougher to address.

There are pros that I like and respect and that are good, fair trainers and treat their dogs humanely, yet on some occasions, as a last resort, they will use the prod. Probably more humane than the person who picks and nags at their dog their whole life and never does get it under control.

JS


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Evan said:


> Barry,
> 
> We hail from the same era. You may, indeed, have been at it prior to my beginning in the mid 70's. But I've seen and heard the things you cited from that period.
> 
> ...


Evan, e-collars in my opinion when used properly are as humane as it gets in the training world. They can also be used in a inhumane manner. It should be used along with a teaching scenerio to reinforce the lessons learned.

Far to often this tool is used to get back at, or with the I'll teach you to screw me type of mentality, and to me that is useless behavior by the teacher and inhumane.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Pete said:


> Barry
> 
> 
> There are times when hanging a dog is appropriate. But usually not needed. Do we poo poo hanging all together or do we accept that on rare occassions its needed.


The day that I find that appropriate is the day I decide that I don't want to play these games anymore. It's not lost on me that there is a learning curve for all the dogs where corrections are appropriate, but I'd like to think there's been a progression involving communication, fair play & trust. Anyone who has seen me train or run a dog knows I have a lot of room for improvement, but I am in this purely as something for my dog & I to do together. That leaves room for corrections, but not abuse.

M


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Pete said:


> Barry
> 
> There are times when hanging a dog is appropriate. But usually not needed. Do we poo poo hanging all together or do we accept that on rare occassions its needed.
> .



I take you are refering to Michael Vick?


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Pete said:


> Barry
> 
> There are times when hanging a dog is appropriate. But usually not needed. Do we poo poo hanging all together or do we accept that on rare occassions its needed.


SO, when is this appropriate? For what infraction? What particular type of hanging? Scruff? Hands around the throat? What?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Barry said:


> Evan, e-collars in my opinion when used properly are as humane as it gets in the training world. *They can also be used in a inhumane manner*. It should be used along with a teaching scenerio to reinforce the lessons learned.


I agree, and I think most e-collar users here would also. Any aversive instrument can be used inhumanely, don't you think?

But if that's true (and it is), many tools - even a prod - can be used humanely and appropriately. That seems to be the real discussion, and it's going to end up as purely an issue of individual opinion.

Thanks for your reply.

Evan


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Depends on what you condsider "hanging" 

The one behavior that will get a dog denied of gravity in this camp is aggression.
Agression towards handler or other dogs.

Go to Ed frawley's website there is a great article on aggressive dogs. 
The article gives a process for a proper correction to aggression.

Sometimes there are only harsh solutions for harsh problems.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

I've seen the prod used by an otherwise respected professional for barking and found it offensive.

The biggest issue I have with the prod for barking is that the timing of the correction is too late (especially compared to a bark collar). Before the time that pro gets to the truck, finds the prod, opens the door to the dog hole and zaps the dog, the barking has long since ended and I can't believe the dog really knows why it was punished. In fact, by the time the dog was punished, it was exhibiting good, quiet behavior which should be rewarded not punished.

My impression is that the prod works not because the dog associates barking with the prod correction, but rather because it changes the dogs attitude creating an atmosphere of fear that is subdued and quiet.

I can also say that it seemed to me that by the time the pro decided to use the prod, he had yelled "quiet" at the truck a couple of times and had become irritated, so the prod was used in anger rather than in a calm, objective manner.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Barry said:


> Evan, e-collars in my opinion when used properly are as humane as it gets in the training world. They can also be used in a inhumane manner. It should be used along with a teaching scenerio to reinforce the lessons learned.
> 
> Far to often this tool is used to get back at, or with the I'll teach you to screw me type of mentality, and to me that is useless behavior by the teacher and inhumane.


Barry,

ANY tool can be abused. You can use a choke collar, a slip lead, a healing stick... ANY tool, in an improper manner. You can ear pinch "to get back at".... Those are all givens. ANY time you get angry or frustrated while training, it's probably best to put the dog up and go have a cold one.

I think the debate here...as originally posted, was whether a cattle prod could be used in a humane way, or is it "justified", in the right hands, to use it to stop a barking dog. Frankly, I don't know how you get the timing right on this.... but I'm still reading.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Pete said:


> There are times when hanging a dog is appropriate. But usually not needed. Do we poo poo hanging all together or do we accept that on rare occassions its needed.


Man, do I have to disagree with this statement. This is very archaic. We used to have an obedience school in Chiago that taught this kind of stuff, and it soon became known as the Nazi School of Dog Training. Thankfully, other people came in with more humane methods, and the Nazi School of Dog Training closed its doors. We have progressed with our tools far enough that I don't feel that there is a need for any such methodology.

If we didn't progress with our tools, people would still be rubbing sticks together to make a fire to cook their beast for dinner.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Evan said:


> I agree, and I think most e-collar users here would also. Any aversive instrument can be used inhumanely, don't you think?
> 
> But if that's true (and it is), many tools - even a prod - can be used humanely and appropriately. That seems to be the real discussion, and it's going to end up as purely an issue of individual opinion.
> 
> ...


Your right. I think where some people are missing the boat here is that a cattle prod is for what? Cattle? A dog collar is for what? Dogs? If I am not mistaken a prod is designed to be used on 3000 lb. animals and a e-collar is designed to be used on 70 lb dogs.They both have their place. You just won't see a prod on my truck, I don't train cattle, but I have the hat. 

Now that being said, is there anyone out there that thinks that the two designs differ and allow for the size of certain animals in which they were intended? Is there anyone out there that thinks that a prod is just a seven or eight in it's stimulation relative to the e-collar?

If the stimulation was just a notch or two higher than the e-collar then explain to me why when the two electrodes when held in close proximity to metal throw an electrical arc like what you see coming off of your car battery, though not as intense or as hot as the car 12 volt battery. With e-collars you have a hard time seeing a arc but I have to assume there is one.
Prods come in many shapes and sizes and with different types of battery packs and have to assume different heights of stimulation.

I have yet to see a e-collar as hot as a prod, if there were out there people would be using them. People in my opinion get carried away with these forms of correction. Funny thing is that in the eyes of a lot of people we are only talking about animals so it's ok to do what we do for the sake of training. Well like I said in my original post, what I'm reading here makes me wonder how many out there should be training their own dog.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Mirium 
Well maby you don't see enough dogs to understand that some are not sweet and fluffy like yours
For starters ,, when you go to take a bird from a dog and he growls ,,,yes in deed he will come off his feet and I will set him down when I'm good and ready.

Or how about a fair and gentile leash correction and the dog wants to bury your genitiles in the back of his mouth
Again I will let him breath when I feel like it.

Or How about a dog that that continues to jump on you and the more you push away the more obstanant he becomes until he starts to growl and wrap you up with his fore arms,, and just before he pins you to the ground....
Now I will let you choose what your next move is.

Not all dogs that come in for training are created equal regaurds

There is no doubt in my mind your next move would be to take control away from the dog.

Pete


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

You lab people take this stuff too seriously, if you all owned goldens we would never have to discuss this problem.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Pete said:


> Mirium
> Well maby you don't see enough dogs to understand that some are not sweet and fluffy like yours
> For starters ,, when you go to take a bird from a dog and he growls ,,,yes in deed he will come off his feet and I will set him down when I'm good and ready.
> 
> ...


Yup. I agree and have experienced all of the above. Some of them NEED to be reminded who is on top of the food chain. no time for pleasantries. With the most instant, effective, hands on approach that they understand. Most have been Goldens !!!!!


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Pete said:


> Mirium
> Well maby you don't see enough dogs to understand that some are not sweet and fluffy like yours
> For starters ,, when you go to take a bird from a dog and he growls ,,,yes in deed he will come off his feet and I will set him down when I'm good and ready.
> 
> ...


Pete-

Finn is a sweet & fluffy house dog, but he is absolutely a lot of dog for me in a trial/test situation. I don't train dogs for a living, so you're right I am coming from a completely different perspective. And I have never owned a dog that growled at me or threatened me in any way whether I was giving a correction or not.

I have to believe that the dogs you're describing are coming to you with these issues and that they aren't a product of being mistreated because frankly-I've seen some folks train in a manner where the dog has 2 choices -defend himself from mistreatment or cower & take it. It doesn't take a big man (or woman) to beat down a dog's confidence.

IF the behavior is just part of the dog's temperment or the issues were created at home-isn't it best for the trainer, the owner and the dog to just say that this dog just shouldn't be training when the only way to communicate with him is with cattle prods and hanging?

They are supposed to WANT to do this and become a team player with fair corrections.

M


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Miriam Wade said:


> Pete-
> 
> IF the behavior is just part of the dog's temperment or the issues were created at home-isn't it best for the trainer, the owner and the dog to just say that this dog just shouldn't be training when the only way to communicate with him is with cattle prods and hanging?
> 
> ...


I agree...who the heck would want a dog that had to be trained with such harsh methods???? And why did it get to that point in the first place?

I also acknowledge that there are times in some dogs lives, where a 'come to Jesus' session is in order...but hopefully those are FEW and FAR between....

Juli


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Mirium
You are correct these are not your nicely bred high desire to please dogs.
But they exist in droves all over the country. When training a normal dog there is never a need for this. This technique is used for specific scenerios.
But my statement said that sometimes its appropriate and many people didn't stop to ask "when is it appropriate " their emotions quickly took over and poo pooed the technique all together.
I almost never use a heeling stick or hit dogs in anyway when I train because I think thats archaic. I only use one as a last resort.
But I have nothing against people who do. Its a standard in the retriever world. 
I gave an example of a perons perception about matters because we as a society deal with perception all day long. especially what comes out of the media's. 

If you were to watch a handler hang a specific dog that needed it and watched the response that followed all people with even a little common sence would be able to see the value in it.

I think what made people mad was they thought I was refering hanging a dog for nothing that would warrent that technique.

It was only this monday that a dog tried to rough me up and dominate me. Tied me up ,growled and put his mouth on me. I hung him just enough to convince him of his folly.. And set him down when he would benefit most from that technique.
Immediately after,,,, he was my best friend and a snuggly wuggly bear. We were able to continue and the people now have a dog on the way to rehabilitation.

What I did was unequivably the correct response.

So when I hear people talk negative about things they don't understand ,,,then,,, me being a good samaritan must stand my ground for the good of all dogdom.
Pete


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

If we would all just watch more episodes of The Dog Whisperer, we could magically fix all these things by properly projecting the correct calm and assertive energy, and learning how to properly walk the dog. Pete, I think some people had a different picture in mind, when you used the hanging word, I know I did, glad you explained.


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Shouldn't the dogs owner be involved in the decision to use the prod or not.


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

DEDEYE said:


> SO, when is this appropriate? For what infraction? What particular type of hanging? Scruff? Hands around the throat? What?


The only reason a dog should be hanged is in an aggressive situation. And then ONLY if it is on a gentle leader or a martingale collar where it would not damage a dog's throat. Of course that rules out most situations where a dog is in a hunting or field type situation because they don't wear those kinds of collars. This would be mostly in obedience type situations. How you would hang a dog without possible injury or damage to either the dog or yourself in a field type situation, I'm not really sure. Maybe it isn't possible to safely. Therefore, that might not be a method to curtail aggression.

Arleen


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

cakasier

You must have missed those episodes 

But yes indeed you must hang in a calm,confident and nonthreating manner
Pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Troopers mom
The head and neck of a dog is the strongest portion of the dog. They are genetically programmed to accept bites in the head and neck area. and also understand what it means.
They also understand that a ripping to the head and neck are phycologically different than a rip to the flanks or legs.
So in reality it is difficult to hurt a dog by hanging it from its neck with a prong or choker. Dogs do much worse to each other than any cruel human could do.

Hanging a dog with a gentile leader is out right cruel and unusuall punishment.


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Pete,

I believe I said THROAT. A choker, etc. can do very serious damage to the throat. If you think a gentle leader is cruel and unusual punishment, you do not understand the gentle leader. It is demonstrated in obedience classes but in any hanging, it is not a prolonged event. 

Arleen


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Arlein
I meant to say 
hanging a dog with a gentile leader is cruel
Did you know dogs poke holes in other dogs throats. And yes I know chokers are harder on dogs throats than prongs,,,but a gentile leader can twist a dogs neck in a way it was not meant to be twisted.
A gentile leader is more suited to a horse than a dog. The gentile leader is not a training tool but a leading tool,,, they only work if you have a clicker in your back pocket
It also can be used to bring a dogs countance down and make them only act subdued,,,,,kind of like a muzzle. I consider them bandaids

OK don't get upset I'm just teasin ya. Now I'm gonna get nasty pm's from people who use gentile leaders.
We gotta have some fun with this stuff.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

No Pete, you are going to get in trouble though if you keep insisting on only "Gentile" leaders as opposed to the Jewish or Muslim leaders. All of them are capable of being "gentle" leaders, if you just keep the prods out of their hands.


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## dirtyrice (Oct 27, 2007)

I have been holding back on this thread because of how emotional this topic can be to some people. Let me first emphasize I have not used a prod on my dog. She is in fact my first lab and is quiet as a church mouse in the crate, on the line, in the kennel. As a newcomer to the retriever world I have sought out people with the experience necessary to learn from in every aspect I can, training, handling, competing, etc. I frequently train with large groups and multiple dog handlers, some of those being pro trainers. I have on more than one occasion witnessed the prod used on a barking dog and used correctly and effectively in my opinion. I also have witnessed firsthand an incessantly barking dog suffer heat stroke and live only by the grace of God himself. That's a scarey situation that puts a new perspective on things. 

I don't think most of the people who have posted on this thread understand what it is that makes the prod an effective tool to end the barking problem. *IT IS NOT *the harsh level of electrical stimulation that makes some pros want to use it, it is actually the fact that it is very portable and can be used quickly and effectively by a competant person contrary to what some people have posted here. It allows the skilled trainer the ability to correct a dog at PRECISELY the moment the dog breaks the -quiet- command without making the dog collar-wise ala the bark collar. If the prod were available with varying levels of stimulation it would be just as effective IMHO.

Again, it is not the level of correction but *THE TIMING *that makes it work. Here's an example: A pro has a trailer full of barking dogs. All these dogs have been taught what quiet means yet in the trailer the excitement propels them to bark themselves into a frenzy. He puts bark collars on each one anytime they are on the trailer. All these dogs understand is that as long as the collar is on their neck they must honor the quiet command. They have learned nothing. Take this trailer of barkers to a situation where you cannot have electric collars in use (such as a hunt test) and listen to the racket. Everyone on the ground ends up pissed off. I know I don't want this trailer parked near my truck as my dog is high strung enough without the noise. --------- However, the same pro stops to train and while he is setting up gets the prod and sets it near the loudest spot on his trailer. QUIET! he commands. Upon the first violation of the command the prod can be inserted into that box thru the louver and used to correct followed by another QUIET! command. Is that harsh? Maybe by your particular standards, but the effectiveness of the tool far outweighs a bark collar to *TEACH* a dog quiet means quiet. If the level of correction were less severe it would still be as effective IMHO. 

So as to the initial post, seeing what I have seen and knowing what I know, watching firsthand the use of the prod and seeing it's effectiveness and relative humaneness *IN THE RIGHT HANDS*, I would have to say absolutely I would leave my dog in the hands of a professional whom I trust that uses a prod to teach quiet (not repeatedly nag or buy quiet time only as long as a collar can be employed). Nobody wants to see a dog get corrected, it's just not easy to watch. But in the wrong hands it doesn't matter if it's a heeling stick a choke chain or a prod, they all become weapons of abuse not tools to teach and enforce. I in no way am trying to change anybody's mind or have them change their moralities as to where "that line is," I am simply stating that from what I have seen, it doesn't have to be as a bad as many here have painted it to be. Go ahead and attack me if you choose but this is where my line has been drawn.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Yes, I love the sound of a prod buzzing at a field trial in the morning.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Yes, I love the sound of a prod buzzing at a field trial in the morning.


 
You Rock, Charlotte!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

cakaiser said:


> Yes, I love the sound of a prod buzzing at a field trial in the morning.


I love how people will poke at the field trial trainers. One day of improper pressure on a dog can cause all sorts of problems which take months to correct if, they can ever be corrected. Does anyone really think a person who is serious about having a competitive dog would just fry the hell out of their dog and the end result is a dog who will run a straight line, handle with perfection and mark with laser precision. 

Maybe the dog whisper can show us retriever folks how to get a young dog to mark a triple and stay steady on a live shot flier I would love to see it. 

The dog whisper works wonders on people who buy cookies for their dogs at a dog bakery. Fifi got there riding in a doggy restraint because the top was down on the BMW convertible.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

dirtyrice is on the right track and appears to have the ribbons to prove it.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

If you reach through the louvers on the trailer to zap the dog who is barking, is there not a chance with metal being conductive, that the offending dog will not be the only one to feel the jolt? Like if the trainer, blindly reaching through the louvers happened to hit the metal wall/floor/ceiling of the dog compartment? I'd hate like heck for my dog to receive a "collateral damage" correction like that.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> You are not allowed to use them on horses at all. And you are only allowed to use them on cattle for the purposes of control, but not to encourage bucking out of the gate.




Read my post...PBR....show me one at an event and I will show you someone getting ready to get banned.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

CBR KAIE said:


> dirtyrice is on the right track and appears to have the ribbons to prove it.


And what ribbons do you have , CBR Kate?


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Read my post...PBR....show me one at an event and I will show you someone getting ready to get banned.


Patrick, I was talking in reference to at PBR events.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> Patrick, I was talking in reference to at PBR events.


Soooooooooo........ presumably you have spent a great deal of time in and around the bull pens at a PBR event watching some of your bulls being moved towards the chutes. Guess that experience trumps that pore old OKie's.

Glad ya could set us straight Kev regards

Bubba


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## dirtyrice (Oct 27, 2007)

First of all huntindawg, i said in the right hands. The right hands wouldnt be holding the button while sticking it thru louver. Secondly, unless your dog was miraculously forming a path to ground, which i dont see how he could be inside a crate, he wouldnt be "colateral damage." Electrical path to ground regards, -dirtyrice


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Soooooooooo........ presumably you have spent a great deal of time in and around the bull pens at a PBR event watching some of your bulls being moved towards the chutes. Guess that experience trumps that pore old OKie's. Glad ya could set us straight Kev regards


Bubba, go back and read the posts. First, I said I had been studying up on the subject this week. (Specifically reading the materials published by the PBR in the defense of rodeos against the animal rights whack-0s I am constantly arguing with.) Second, Patrick and I are in agreement on what the PBR says.  My reply to his original post was not a correction, it was a clarification. Finally, he thought I missed that he said PBR and I replied I hadn't. End of subject. Or at least it should have been.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

And now I see from my notes I was confusing the PBR with the PRCA anyway, which would explain why I mentioned horses and that seemed to confuse Patrick, so don't listen to me. Never mind. :-?


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

I leave for a few days, and there are 14 pages of people shocking the piss out of dogs with cattle prods. That's how my wife used to wake me up back when I drank. 

Wishing I had PBR protection regards.

tt


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## Josh Conrad (Jul 3, 2005)

I was bored so I read some of this. 

Those of you that are "appalled" are just silly. Cattle prod is just like a High 6, maybe a little more punch. 

I have seen them used and I have a dog with a pro that has been known to use one. If you look in the breeze ways on the pro's trucks at a trial, more than likely your going to see one tucked away in there somewhere.

There is a right tool for the job and a right time to use that tool. Bark collars are great, the folks I mentioned above also have several of those.

If you have ever welded your dog to the ground with H6 when they got out of the water too early, then it is not much different then the prod. If you haven't welded your dog to the ground when they got out early, you should try it, they tend to stay in a little longer on the next run. Turns em real watery real quick like.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Hoosier said:


> Shouldn't the dogs owner be involved in the decision to use the prod or not.


Ideally, I'd think not. They are paying a pro to use his judgement and experience in training their dog. The pro has to make decisions in real time. They can't call up the owner and ask if they can make a correction or not.


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## maydayretrievers (May 30, 2005)

Wow, this is one wierd thread. the prod is a tool yes. But is over used i have one but don;t use it in the box or the kennel..it is used for breaking dogs when they are collar wise..
second thier are several levels of prods..so saying they are a level 6 on a collar is wrong some of those prods are hotter than the sun
I don;t approve of them for barking on a dog truck or in kennel..reason 1. I have had several dogs that came from other trainers that had used them..those dogs would bark on the truck i would go out to shut them up, open their box and they were ready to fight or bite..that tells me to much presure..
2nd same goes for in the kennel soon as you walk out they wanna bark yeah they will shut up when they see you coming with the prod ..but you have not solved the problem..
3 people are saying you need to burn to keep dogs in the water or weld them in the ground that says you have not taught your dog..

our field trials are getting so hard that dogs are robots ..no style ...
Teach teach teach train train train ..the collar is a tool the prod is a tool ONLY in the right hands burning a dog is not the answear look in the mirrow why should a dog work for you if all you do is burn him into the ground..

Just my opionion I mainly train hunt test dogs and minor stakes field trials and do the bird dog challenge..but I have earned my respect from my clients for fixing dogs washed out by others..its just my idea;s of training just something to think about..

teach ,train, less presure, patients , Success


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

ACEBLDRS said:


> I was bored so I read some of this.
> 
> Those of you that are "appalled" are just silly.
> 
> If you have ever welded your dog to the ground with H6 when they got out of the water too early, then it is not much different then the prod. If you haven't welded your dog to the ground when they got out early, you should try it, they tend to stay in a little longer on the next run. Turns em real watery real quick like.


We don't train this way, doesn't work too well for us, it's not good enough if a dog thinks the only correct behavior is to get in the water and stay there. Anybody can train a dog to do that, try getting a dog to run 150 yards down the shore and get in on an angle, or pulling out the middle retired bird of an in- line triple,maybe you will see it is not that easy.


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## Georgia Smith (Feb 22, 2007)

Do the posters here think for one moment there are not Anties, PETA, and other Animal Rights Activists lurking on this site. Don't be surprised if quotes from this thread show up on some nightly news program or a group of unidentified folks, posing as spectators, show up at a hunt test or field trial to disrupt your event.
Trust me, their view on us shooting flyers will pale in comparison to their view on the use of cattle prods on dogs. 

Our world of hunting, shooting, and owning animals in general is under fire. If you don't think so, go to the U.S. Sportman's Alliance web site.

Protect our sport. Don't post what some would consider animal abuse on a public forum.

Chris and Vickie, I am surprised you have not taken down this thread. 

G. Smith


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

With all due respect, I too worry about who may be watching this, but I am glad that the thread is here. It gives me a really good idea of who has a clue, who thinks they have a clue, and who is a bonehead. 

To verify how clued-in or clue-less some individuals are, I have cross-referenced a few names with ee entries to see who actually does something with their clues, and what sort of success they do or do not have. I now have a better idea who to pay attention to and who to tune out. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one using the thread like this.

Threads like this are invaluable to me in terms of what's out there in the retriever world and how I and those I train with fit into it. 

And I know exactly how I feel about cattle prods, but I don't have the experience to know exactly how useful that feeling is (go ahead and look me up) or to have the audacity to comment about it.

But I for one am glad to have the thread.

--greta ode


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

The reason I started this thread is the way my dog was acting when I got him back from the trainer. The trainer did ff and cc . he was there about a month and a half. Before I sent him he would bring the bumper back by the rope probably one out of ten times. When I got him back nearly every time.So I work on hold again he was doing that very well before he left.I get him bringing the bumper back with a good hold.Then as soon as I apply any presure [ example whistle sit on return from pile or 2.5 nick in force to pile] right to the rope. The pro says he likes to cc up to 6 in case he needs it and he don't care how the dog carries the bumper as long as he carries birds right. I feel like the dog got too much presure at the trainer. Oh by the way there was a female in heat on the truck with them. I don't know if that explains the barking or not.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

ACEBLDRS said:


> I was bored so I read some of this.
> 
> Those of you that are "appalled" are just silly. Cattle prod is just like a High 6, maybe a little more punch.
> 
> ...


 its a just a quick fix. what it will do is sour them on water work faster in thier life. remeber all dogs have x number of water blinds in them. you can spreadem out over thier carrer or use them up early.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

GSmith said:


> Do the posters here think for one moment there are not Anties, PETA, and other Animal Rights Activists lurking on this site. Don't be surprised if quotes from this thread show up on some nightly news program or a group of unidentified folks, posing as spectators, show up at a hunt test or field trial to disrupt your event.
> Trust me, their view on us shooting flyers will pale in comparison to their view on the use of cattle prods on dogs.
> 
> Our world of hunting, shooting, and owning animals in general is under fire. If you don't think so, go to the U.S. Sportman's Alliance web site.
> ...


Thanks G....I appreciate your thoughts and could use a little more detail.

On what grounds should I take it down? 

Do you feel that the personal attacks have gotten out of control? Please help me see where someone is not using the golden rule, or has defamed and/or jeopardized the livlihood or well-being of someone and I can consider it. If someone is inserting profanity, pornography, endorsing illegal activities, or endangering someone, we need to stop it.

I have my own personal opinions on the issue and some of the subject matter, but RTF is not about my beliefs or about all of us agreeing.

Overall, I've been pretty impressed by the participants' abilities to focus on debating the issue, without attacking the person. I can't read it all, so if I've missed something, please help me see it.

P.S. always feel free to report a post privately as well if you feel it has gotten out of hand. Sometimes it feels a bit nicer than a public "callout" scenario. I would imagine that Vicky and the RTF moderators that preceeded her would agree.

Chris


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## LSpann (Oct 1, 2007)

I have a cattle prod and I use it. No different than an e-collar.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

People fear what they don't understand. If, a topic can be brought to light which explores everyones' view, opinions and feelings, it is usually interesting and spurs on a good debate and in the end, everyone who participated probably will walk away remembering the discussion, opinions and feelings of those who were involved. I think this thread has some good information contained within from the people who took a minute or two and wrote down a complete thought. There are many schools of thought on dog training. Some folks here understand one, some two and I can easily see who has worked many dogs, with different trainers over many years. As someone said, pretty easy to weed out who to take seriously and who to write off regarding training topics. I am no pro, I just like to train dogs. I train 5 days a week and spend a lot of time with a pro on weekends. I am learning. Some people close their ears when they think they have made a dog or two and stop learning. Every dog is different and will require different methods. Having more than one ace in your back pocket never hurts. 

I don't fear expressing my opinion, thoughts and more importantly, first hand experiences. Not everyone thinks the way I do. The guy who laughed at me for having been shocked with a cattle prod and insinuating I am stupid for testing an e-collar on my arm, his opinion, it is fine and doesn't hurt my feelings. 

If, Peta or some other ultra liberal(what an oxymoron) wacko group wants to show up at an event and ruin it. They will do it and not because of some emailed thread on a web page. If, we were worried about it, we wouldn't use Entry express or post the results of any field event. Our names and registered dog names allow us to be tracked right down to your address and sometime phone numbers. 

Can't go through life sweating the small stuff, it would be a waste of time. I spend time worrying about what I am not doing right in my training. I think this has been a good topic which has brought to light peoples feelings about collars, training and how much experience they have with different training theology.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

How is a cattle prod any different than running a hotwire around the outyard run area?

/Paul


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> And now I see from my notes I was confusing the PBR with the PRCA anyway, which would explain why I mentioned horses and that seemed to confuse Patrick, so don't listen to me. Never mind. :-?




Watch the PBR this weekend and count the times you see a hot shot and let me know....I know of a guy that pulled one out a month ago and it was jerked out of his hand. Hot Shotting bulls on TV is NO BUENO with the PBR.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> How is a cattle prod any different than running a hotwire around the outyard run area?
> 
> /Paul


I ain't as likely to pee on the cattle prod in the dark.

Brighten up yer day egards

Bubba


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

LSpann said:


> I have a cattle prod and I use it. No different than an e-collar.


thats bull, let me use both on u and tell me what you think hurts the worst.lol i agree a prod can be a useful tool. but if i have a dog i would have to use it on i wouldnt keep it.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> I ain't as likely to pee on the cattle prod in the dark.
> 
> Brighten up yer day egards
> 
> Bubba


We all know that your shooting abilities are only accurate for a extremely short period between buzzed and hammered....and since you spend such a short period of time at that stage of inebriation i'm not surprised you couldn't hit the end of the stick....

/Paul


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Back to Hoosiers original question, I feel it is completely normal for a dog to be down after time spent FF and CC. Why wouldn't he be, he just got the wake up call that his owner is serious about making sure he is started on the right path and the foundation laid to make a beautiful thing happen, later, down the road. 

I have never seen a dog go away from a FF and CC session in a real happy go lucky mood. I saw/helped about 10 young dogs go through the process in the last 8 months. 

My bitch was down for a long time because she didn't like the pressure, it took about 30 days and a lot of live birds to snap her out of her pouting.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

CBR KAIE said:


> Back to Hoosiers original question, I feel it is completely normal for a dog to be down after time spent FF and CC. Why wouldn't he be, he just got the wake up call that his owner is serious about making sure he is started on the right path and the foundation laid to make a beautiful thing happen, later, down the road.
> 
> I have never seen a dog go away from a FF and CC session in a real happy go lucky mood. I saw/helped about 10 young dogs go through the process in the last 8 months.
> 
> My bitch was down for a long time because she didn't like the pressure, it took about 30 days and a lot of live birds to snap her out of her pouting.


CBRK, hope you don't take this personally at all, as it is sure not meant that way.

My experience has been otherwise and I'm going to do a cross-check to see if I'm in the minority.

So far, the dogs I've seen exit FF have been enthusiastic, tail-wagging, and psyched to go after whatever they're retrieving.

Respectfully and sincerely,

Chris


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Ok.So would you use the prod on a 8 month old pup that hasn't been through cc. If so or not please explain. Because I believe that would have been the timing.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Hoosier said:


> . The pro says he likes to cc up to 6 in case he needs it and he don't care how the dog carries the bumper as long as he carries birds right.


Hoosier
Sounds like you really struggling to try to find some answers. The best advice I can give, after having many of these struggles ourselves,over the years, is to go with your gut, if you feel something is wrong, then don't tolerate it, it's your dog, you will be the one who has to sleep it night. To answer your question, no, we would not use a prod on an 8 month old, period, plainly, many disagree. You ask for a reason why not, it can be dangerous, have long term side effects, and,very important to me,is just no fun. I agree with Kippy, if it is really necessary, I would not keep that dog, or, if I did, I would not train it.
I referenced the above quote, because I disagree with what your trainer said. First of all, it is important how the dog carries the bumper, this is a basic part of yard work. CC up to 6 is old school, current thinking is use the level of stimulation needed to affect a behavior change in the dog. I have known many fine dogs that could not tolerate this much pressure, I own one myself, with an FC- AFC in front of her name. A statement such as this from a pro would, to me, raise red flags. I hope this helps.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

kip said:


> thats bull, let me use both on u and tell me what you think hurts the worst.


I made a similar offer but had no takers…


Kip I am sure you have experience the business end of a Hot Shot and held a collar…which is more uncomfortable?


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> I made a similar offer but had no takers…
> 
> 
> Kip I am sure you have experience the business end of a Hot Shot and held a collar…which is more uncomfortable?


I'm with Kip on this one. I've been on the wrong end of a hot shot a number of times. It is *many, many, many* times stronger than any e-collar I have ever been around.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

always hard to say unless you really know the individual dog. My current girl wouldn't take that kind of pressure but, I have seen some that just don't care. Getting back to my earlier post of trusting your trainer and knowing the individual dog. 

My girl gets a little upset for a while after a day with pressure and new concepts. 

And, I never condoned the prod, just have been around them and like collars, there are different makes and models and I certainly have not experienced every single one of them


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

CBR KAIE said:


> And, I never condoned the prod, just have been around them and like collars, there are different makes and models and I certainly have not experienced every single one of them


and I quote you "there isn't a thing wrong with a cattle prod" Perhaps this whole, entire thread has been of some value, after all.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

What do you feel is wrong with them if, used by an experienced person and in the appropriate circumstances?

Slightly mispoken,(understatement) I do condone the use of them in the correct hands. 

Have you personally used one on any animal or, been around them more than once when used in an what is considered by many a, "appropriate" situation, not taking a million different factors all which have been mentioned above? 

Have you ever had one used on you? Do you have any desire to try one out once or twice?


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

cakaiser said:


> and I quote you "there isn't a thing wrong with a cattle prod" Perhaps this whole, entire thread has been of some value, after all.


Or, maybe not.


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## Josh Conrad (Jul 3, 2005)

Man, I guess that is what I get for being bored. LOL


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> I know of no pro that uses the prod for forcing, etc.
> 
> I know of no pro that does not have a prod on the truck to deal with barking dogs.
> 
> It is a tool, nothing more or less, and as such it is capable of good and of bad, depending upon the skill of the user.


I agree !! and although many pros are very discreet especially around thier clients _ have wittnessed thier use on numerous occasions!_ Have I used one, of course, have I used one on myself, of course, and also have felt the "tingle" of a number five e-collar on my ear while listening to check if it was on while driving down the road in the old days! Ok now whats the difference between that and a strong bark collar!? Move on.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Hoosier said:


> Would you send your dog to a pro who had told you in conversation that he had used a cattle prod on a dog to get barking under control?


After such a debated thread, ..............better make sure your dog is not a barker.


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## Wingmaster01 (May 5, 2008)

[i agree a prod can be a useful tool. but if i have a dog i would have to use it on i wouldnt keep it.[/QUOTE]

A cattle prod is a useful tool on bulls and bears, not well bred labs. The quote above, " but if I have a dog I would have to use it on I wouldn't keep it" is perhaps the most intelligent remark of this thread. 

To ad to it, any dog trainer, pro or amateur that has to use a cattle prod to reinforce a known command such as " back " or to keep it from running the bank probably needs to take up another hobby or profession, Let the dog go to another owner or let it retire and lay by its dish. There is a time to hold em, a time to fold em and time to get up and walk away.


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Man my dog wont shut up anyone know where i can find a hotter prod ?


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

My dog is not much of a barker.I believe another dog on the truck would get them going. I also believe if you would hit a dog with a prod you would would probably turn the coller up a little too high. I conditioned my dog to here and he got vocal at level 3. This guy was roasting him on 6.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

So if you do have a barking dog.. Where do you hit them with the prod?? Not like you can ask them to turn around in the dog box for ya, so is it where the end hits first??


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I talked with my pro last night about the subject. He made a simple comment which made sense to me. With the prod, you hit them in the rear end and are giving immediate correction. With a bark collar, you are not giving correction and you are juicing the dog and not giving any command or correction. He has never used a bark collar and said he will never use a bark collar. In his 65 years as a pro, he said the combination of a hit on the butt with the prod and a strong command usually fixes a barking dog after a few lessons when done correctly. But, he has not used the prod since he retired from running the circuit in the 80's. 

He also feels strongly that some dogs cannot take juice on their neck so close to the brain. He said some dogs will work happier if, pressure is applied on their backside. It may sound corny but, his opinion and experience of working thousands of dogs and making an NFC and coutless FC's in his career. 

He also said he has never had a barking problem with his trial dogs because his trial dogs wouldn't be on the truck if, they had a mess of problems including uncontrollable barking or noise on the line.


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

CBR KAIE said:


> In his 65 years as a pro, he said the combination of a hit on the butt with the prod . . .


My goodness, how old is this fellow? It would be interesting to hear more about someone who has been running dogs for more than half a century. No doubt he's seen a lot of changes over the years.


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## El General (Aug 20, 2004)

I ain't going to read all 18 pages, but:

Having used both on myself (but never a prod on a dog), I would say that most e-collars have settings that are higher than your average red and white prod. I know my dogtra with 100 levels of stim does. I would rate the prod in the 40-50 range, though it is a lightly different feeling between the ecollar and the prod. The e-collar is sharper.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

kip said:


> thats bull, let me use both on u and tell me what you think hurts the worst.lol *i agree a prod can be a useful tool. but if i have a dog i would have to use it on i wouldnt keep it*.


 
Really what more needs to be said. Best advice on this thread.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Paul is 81. He ran made his first Champion as a pointing dog trainer in his teens working for his brother who ran a pointing dog training facility. They flipped a coin in the late 1959 to decide who would train retrievers. He lost. then he won the 1964 NFC.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> My experience has been otherwise and I'm going to do a cross-check to see if I'm in the minority.Chris


Chris,

The CBR's are not like labs at all. Some will hold a grudge!

Tom


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

CBR KAIE said:


> Paul is 81. He ran made his first Champion as a pointing dog trainer in his teens working for his brother who ran a pointing dog training facility. They flipped a coin in the late 1959 to decide who would train retrievers. He lost. then he won the 1964 NFC.


That's amazing! What a great person to have as your mentor.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

twall said:


> Chris,
> 
> The CBR's are not like labs at all. Some will hold a grudge!
> 
> Tom


Understood Tom.

I got caught in my "all retrievers are labs" rut that I sometimes fall into.

Chris


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## Lonny Taylor (Jun 22, 2004)

CBR KAIE said:


> Paul is 81. He ran made his first Champion as a pointing dog trainer in his teens working for his brother who ran a pointing dog training facility. They flipped a coin in the late 1959 to decide who would train retrievers. He lost. then he won the 1964 NFC.


Hmmmmm......without looking up records and by what you said his age & first name was.......are you talking about Paul Shoemaker???

curiosity regards,

LT


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes, Paul Shoemaker. Many rumors I heard about him prior to becoming close friends with him are exactly that, rumors. Definately has a "colorful" past but, still training actively everyday and has a full kennel of clients' dogs and a few of his own. 

I have been a "lurker" on this site for a long time. Seen many comments from people about Paul that were so off base it is humorous. Many just lies others, just people who repeat the old, " I know someone, who knows someone who heard ........ was true."


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Off to work on my breaking issue with Mr. Shoemaker, leaving work early. Running SH at RHRC in Duvall, Wa. ---- Wish me luck-- just for the curious, I have never used a cattle prod on my own dog. But, I have been shocked as part of a few practical jokes growing up with the pro-ropers in my neighborhood. 

Breakwater Salutes USS Maddox, CBR, F, 10-26-2006
CH Silvercreeks Next Strike X CH MarJan's Sweet Surrender 
Owner/Handler Paul Gilmore


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

CBR KAIE said:


> I talked with my pro last night about the subject. He made a simple comment which made sense to me. With the prod, you hit them in the rear end and are giving immediate correction. With a bark collar, you are not giving correction and you are juicing the dog and not giving any command or correction. He has never used a bark collar and said he will never use a bark collar. In his 65 years as a pro, he said the combination of a hit on the butt with the prod and a strong command usually fixes a barking dog after a few lessons when done correctly. But, he has not used the prod since he retired from running the circuit in the 80's.
> 
> He also feels strongly that some dogs cannot take juice on their neck so close to the brain. He said some dogs will work happier if, pressure is applied on their backside. It may sound corny but, his opinion and experience of working thousands of dogs and making an NFC and coutless FC's in his career.
> 
> He also said he has never had a barking problem with his trial dogs because his trial dogs wouldn't be on the truck if, they had a mess of problems including uncontrollable barking or noise on the line.




There have been huge advancements in tools for dog training in the last 30 years…maybe some of the tools and techniques of yesteryear translate well in today’s modern times and maybe some don’t.

The use of a cattle prod on a dog in today’s world is at best unnecessary to the worst abusive. The "it just another tool" theory is just pathetic.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

If it requires a cattle prod-or a burn on "high"-or salt from a shotgun or a slingshot or any other similar method-that should tell you something about your dog. If a dog doesn't have enough natural desire to want to work for you, and to want to do the work, is that a dog you really want? I understand some things in retriever training are forced. But if it takes that much force-because lighter pressure didn't work-isn't the dog telling you something? That is making a dog do it-not teaching, not training, not reinforcing-that is escalating force because of repeated refusals-and that is something you should listen to. Also, I don't want a dog who has a parent that had to be forced into the water. These are retrievers, bred to swim after ducks-if it takes voltage to get the dog into the water-something is missing in the dog.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> There have been huge advancements in tools for dog training in the last 30 years…maybe some of the tools and techniques of yesteryear translate well in today’s modern times and maybe some don’t.
> 
> The use of a cattle prod on a dog in today’s world is at best unnecessary to the worst abusive. The "it just another tool" theory is just pathetic.


Right, I believe that is why there are so many nice females around today, training techniques have come so far that many more sensitive dogs are succeeding. To me, the worst kind of dog is a tough dog, that is a dog that is no fun to train.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

I said it once and apparently it was missed so I'll say it again. If a pro consistently has a dog full of trucks that are happy, energetic, run with style, etc, then I really am not concerned about abuse, regardless of what tools he/she uses. If the pro consistently produces sulky, piggy, buggy, aggressive, etc dogs, then I would be concerned even if all he/she uses is a whistle.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Please excuse those who continued the discusson for 'apparently missing' your post. Perhaps, there's more vanilla in the topic than you imagine.


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