# interesting article in Shotgun Life



## RobinZClark (Jun 8, 2012)

http://www.shotgunlife.com/wingshoo...ert-milner-says-heck-no-to-shock-collars.html


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Not as interesting as learning how to use and apply aversive stimulus as Positive Reinforcement.

You see, "traditional" Retriever Trainers seldom use the e-collar to punish behavior. 
It's used primarily as reinforcement.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)




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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

When you consider the source (good dogman, not that there's anything wrong with _*that*_), how appropriate does this look:










MG


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

I don’t understand why Mr. Milner continues to imply that British trainers don’t use “compulsion” as he calls it. He also confuses “Operant Conditioning” with purely positive training and infers that there is evidence to suggest that purely positive training is more efficient than a balanced approach. I have asked for this evidence from several well known proponents of the 2Q ideology only to realize that it simply comes down to an aversion on the part of the trainer to inflict any degree of pain or stress on their dogs. 

I can accept this philosophy if that’s how they feel, but I do find it to be very disingenuous to attempt to mislead the uninformed into thinking that this approach is as effective as (let alone superior to) a balanced approach. Rather than demonstrate the theory that 2Q >4Q, proponents of Milner’s ideology resort to setting up “straw men” of supposedly sadistic, ignorant & un-read Neanderthals who resort to “shock collars” because they simply haven’t been exposed to the “modern” (1939?) theories of B.F. Skinner. (a man who studied mostly rats & pigeons but wrote about human behavior.)

It's offensive.


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

Always wondered how a can full of pennies being shaken near a dog or thrown at a dog to "distract" or "avert" them (fearing or intimidation in my opinion) was by any means purely positive. I recall the great Victoria Stilwell has used this in her TV shows. I have seen people use this can of pennies method and end up with a dog jumpy towards certain noises and essentially freeze with fear or axiety. I am not discounting the possibility that those poeple did not use the method correcty, thus created their issue. All that aside, I am still curious where I would benefit from a dog being feared or intimidated by noise at which they are much more sensitive to compared to touch. 

As for my purely positive method, my dog treats his e-collar with the same excitement as food, a leash, or even a tennis ball. Fortunately, not with fear or axiety because I dropped the coffee can full of pennies. Every dog is different, every dog needs different training techniques. No all inclusive plan out there will work on every dog with the same desired results.

On a side note, sure has been ages since I posted on here.

Eric W.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Great article from a puppy mill

/paul


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

Love him or hate him, people listen when Mr. Millner speaks. 

Kind of like the Don Cherry of the Retriever world


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## mudminnow (Oct 20, 2011)

I was skeptical, then saw a dog from his kennel trained by my friend using his methods and was impressed. Drove to Memphis, picked up a dog, trained it by myself with his methods and had the same awesome results(100 yd blinds and steadiness in a year, my first dog I have ever trained). This is all in the same year that i moved, started a job and my wife had a baby. People are going to say its a puppy mill and he is just doing it for the money, and I will go ahead and press the ignore button for your name. I believe the writer of the article was confusing operant conditioning as meaning all positive reinforcement because it is pretty clear from reading Milner's stuff that operant conditioning covers all forms of reinforcement. If it is not your cup of tea let it slide, there are many ways to train dogs, his way was the best for me and worked on my ft/ht bred golden also. Most importantly it was fun for me and my dogs. Slandering his kennel and his wways is not beneficial to the dog training culture. I don't criticize every thread that teaches something different than I would, neither should you


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Don who? If one in a million Americans knew who Grapes was, to even think about wanting to listen to him, you'd be flattering Milner.

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Don who?
> MG


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Personally I found the article interesting. I think there is validity to positive reinforcement. I use it every time Gauge does something right. I use praise he uses food. 
What I read from the article is that a food reward based training system is superior to using a lead with a collar, CC or FF(not directly mentioned but implied), and there was no mention at all about praise.
I believe the method is viable, but to discount the success of thousands of trainers all over the world is a bit bold.


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## Dooley (Feb 1, 2011)

Gundog_2002....if your comment was aimed at Robert Milner of Duckhill Kennels.....THAT WAS A CHEAP SHOT.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Don who?





polmaise said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote


I've gone and spit up my cranberry juice, you rotter! Kidney malfunction ahead.

Truth be told, I'm getting a kick out of the outrage to Milner's screed from the US pointing dog fraternity, who do predominantly use e-collars as "shock collars."

MG


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

polmaise said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote


Sorry Mike got it this one correct, I believe his interrogatory form was used to express surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Cherry


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

You Canadians better cut it out or Milner's going to expound on Lean Mac's having been the "original canoe Lab." ...

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> I've gone and spit up my cranberry juice, you rotter! Kidney malfunction ahead.
> 
> Truth be told, I'm getting a kick out of the outrage to Milner's screed from the US pointing dog fraternity, who do predominantly use e-collars as "shock collars."
> 
> MG


Truth be told MG! similar conflicting and mis-representation for the gundog 'masses' old and new alike ''this side of the pond'' as you are aware!...Maybe 'Pippa' will combine forces and be the 'reckoning' for us all?


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

From the article:
_“If you shock a dog with a bird in his mouth, his neck and jaw muscles contract, which causes him to clamp down or punch holes in the bird."_

I hope you all will now stop shocking your dogs as they pick up the bird. This could be problematic.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

crackerd said:


> You Canadians better cut it out or Milner's going to expound on Lean Mac's having been the "original canoe Lab." ...


Sorry, let me clarify: You Canadians better cut it out or Milner's going to expound on Lean Mac's having been the "original canoe Lab" that was ruined by North American field trials.

MG


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Truth be told MG! similar conflicting and mis-representation for the gundog 'masses' old and new alike ''this side of the pond'' as you are aware!...Maybe 'Pippa' will combine forces and be the 'reckoning' for us all?


Robt., Warning: the "pointing" Labs folks got their vivisectionist dirks (dirks!) out for your buddy up in Minnesota too over this "informative article" of Milner's.

MG


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Scum Frog said:


> Love him or hate him, people listen when Mr. Millner speaks.
> 
> Kind of like the Don Cherry of the Retriever world


You are so correct. I just wish we could get to them before they act. 

BTW I didn't know ya'll had frogs in Canada.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Dooley said:


> Gundog_2002....if your comment was aimed at Robert Milner of Duckhill Kennels.....THAT WAS A CHEAP SHOT.


A cheap shot is when you step out of the shadows unseen and throw a punch..........Paul hasn't ever stepped out of the shadows, to my knowledge, to throw a punch. As a matter of fact his name and vocation are attached to every post. How about yours?


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Also from the article:
_“So when you zap a dog on the neck, it makes him want to leave and he will run away from that place. You’ve trained him to run away from you.”_

Got that? No more "Zapping". It explains why you can't catch your dog when you get home from work.

Honestly, I know most of you don't think we should care about this kind of nonsense but I assure you, more & more people are buying into the propaganda that people like Milner are selling. Soon the question will be asked, Why should "Shock collars" be legal when there are "reams & reams of data" proving that a clicker & a cookie are more effective?


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Has Don ever worn a camo suit?
hmmmmmm


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

The only thing good about the NHL lockout was not having to shield my eyes from the retinal riot produced by Cherry' grotesque haberdashery.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I usually don't do this....but there's no need to compose another post......so I'll just copy the other one and push "submit reply". 



> RZClark (or is that "bigbrit"?) said:
> 
> 
> > Intereresting article in Shotgun life.


Here's a selected excerpt from article.


> "“When you apply a punishment, be it a jerk on the neck with a choke collar or a jolt of electricity from a shock collar, it decreases the preceding behavior and it increases the following behavior because it’s an escape mechanism for the dog,” he elaborated. “So when you zap a dog on the neck, it makes him want to leave and he will run away from that place. You’ve trained him to run away from you.”
> 
> With that in mind, the situation deteriorates for most gun dogs, according to Mr. Milner. “If you shock a dog with a bird in his mouth, his neck and jaw muscles contract, which causes him to clamp down or punch holes in the bird. Then the pain goes away. So chomping down on the bird is an escape response because chomping down on the bird turned off the pain.”


Only the naive would fall for that "line of _misinformation_". I read it and don't feel the least bit swayed to change. 

This dog is wearing an e-collar. Oh my! Look at the effort she is putting into getting away from me. 










OMG....this dog is wearing an e-collar, too. It is so obvious he is scared to death about it. 










I'm 72 years old. Experience has shown me there is quite often more than one way to succeed. The problem is some seem to think their's is abundantly superior to the "misguided and foolish". 

Frankly, this topic has been "flogged" more than enough. Then again, there is a market that needs to be "enhanced" once-in-awhile....."R Z Clark". 









"Warm and fuzzy" regards, Jim


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

“But as long as we remain ignorant about training dogs with positive reinforcement, we can’t make an intelligent decision on it,” he said.


So his way is the only way ???

If he and others decide that they want to click train or treat train ,I'm fine with that (none of my concern and I wont belittle what or how they choose to achieve results) ,but this above quote shows his lack of true care or respect for the retriever sport and his fellow sportsmen . Comments like these paint a picture of animal cruelty to the uneducated or people that are on the fence. 

So not only is he trying to prove his method is better (which is completely acceptable ) ,but he goes further to down grade any other training method ,which seems to have underlying business $$$ motives wrote all over it.

So if the "pesky neighbor " tries to educate herself and does a google search and Milner's article is the first one she reads then looks out the window and see's someone with a "shock collar " strapped to the dog neck ...What do you think her assumption will be? 


No matter how successful his method may be I have an issue with the way he has continued to try to paint the picture of the caveman mentality of positive reinforcement training and trainers.

300 puppies a year screams puppy mill to me. that about a 1.25 pup per day birth.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> Only the naive would fall for that "line of _misinformation_."


Hey, Kwik, there's always the chance Milner was mis-bloviated, er, misquoted in the article. His intel on US performance Labs has always been so...unbiased and unimpeachable.

MG


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

300 pups per year all with NO clearances - if that doesn't qualify as a puppy mill I would be interested in hearing what your criteria would be?

Not a cheap shot if it's in the 10 ring regards

Bubba


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Crackerd said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, Kwik, there's always the chance Milner was mis-bloviated, er, misquoted in the article. His intel on US performance Labs has always been so...unbiased and unimpeachable.


Well, that stopped me in my tracks......had to Google a definition.









I agree.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Shawn White;1058365
300 puppies a year screams puppy mill to me. that about a 1.25 pup per day birth.[/QUOTE said:


> Sorry. I have to throw the penalty flag. It's .83 puppies a day.
> 
> Carry on!
> 
> ...


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Dave Plesko said:


> Sorry. I have to throw the penalty flag. It's .83 puppies a day.
> 
> Carry on!
> 
> ...


Classic. I thought all you guys in WA were stoned. lol


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## Dixiedog78 (Jul 9, 2009)

There is plenty of positive reinforcement in my training, even though I use a "SHOCK COLLAR". I ocasionally use positive verbal reinforcement when my dog has done something favorable, epecially when she is confused or stuck in a rut. I think the author would have done the reader a better service if he would have gotten another option from a trainer (Lardy, Voight, Farmer, etc.) that uses a "SHOCK COLLAR" and then let the reader decide which program will work for them....

I have one question......how do you reward a dog that has just performed a flawless remote swimming sit at 40 yards? Do you then throw treats to the dog, hoping they will float??? Will the dog hear the positive reinforcement of the clicker when there is a brisk wind and the sit is 100 yards away?

There are many means to an end but I prefer not to use Mr. Milner's method eventhough my dog does not deserve this type "punishment"


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Dooley said:


> Gundog_2002....if your comment was aimed at Robert Milner of Duckhill Kennels.....THAT WAS A CHEAP SHOT.


First off, i've never shocked a dog for picking up a bird, even in my less educated years. Certainly not now. He condemns compulsion trainers. Lets be real, the fact is compulsion trainers also know that success and positive training gets results. His only experience is the late 70's and 80's. Today's compulsion trainers know a heck of a lot more then way back then. I grew up in those days, i've seen it. No way I'd train like that today. I also know about health, and breeding dogs responsibly. He's willing to condemn trainers today, while at the same time pumping dogs out like a factory. None of them have today's health clearances. If he was really concerned about dogs there is no way he'd be selling that many puppies. He's a puppy mill. He found a marketing glitch and he's exposing it. 

Its not about dogs picking up birds anymore...

/Paul


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## sick lids (Sep 25, 2012)

Would love to see some one call there inexperienced pup with a cookie, when it is running full boar towards a skunk or porcupine.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Scum Frog said:


> Love him or hate him, people listen when Mr. Millner speaks.


Not me. As soon as I saw the headline I knew all I needed to know. I don't hate him but I take issue with much of what he says and I believe he spreads misinformation which is generally harmful to others for personal gain.

I have nothing to gain from reading anything he says except higher blood pressure and a foul disposition.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Dave Plesko said:


> Sorry. I have to throw the penalty flag. It's .83 puppies a day.
> 
> Carry on!
> 
> ...




Ruffing the passer?!


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## Fran Seagren (Jan 21, 2013)

"Dog trainer extraordinaire Robert Milner wants to ask sportsmen a personal question: Would you discipline your own children with a shock collar?"

In answer to this first question - HECK YES!


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

The article was and is pure 100% Bull ****. Milner/Stewart = charletons


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Fran Seagren said:


> "Dog trainer extraordinaire Robert Milner wants to ask sportsmen a personal question: Would you discipline your own children with a shock collar?"
> 
> In answer to this first question - HECK YES!


best first post I have seen in ages, welcome to RTF!


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

And the crap he spews about search and rescue is insulting.


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## bigbrit (Sep 29, 2009)

The fact that most of the comments on this forum have been cheap shots and that people are angry, proves that Milner is right. He threatens your culture and it is hard for you to grasp new methods and to think out of the box. The proof is in the pudding and this article exposes it.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

> Dog trainer extraordinaire Robert Milner wants to ask sportsmen a personal question:
> *Would you discipline your own children with a shock collar?*


No.....b/c their children


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## bigbrit (Sep 29, 2009)

For those of you that missed this part
_“The end result was I got the dogs and handlers trained in six months instead of 18,” Mr. Milner said of Tennessee Task Force 1. “The lesson I learned from that was the major benefit of positive training is that it’s three times easier for new trainers to learn.”

Deeper research into clicker training supported his initial observations. He referenced statistics from Guide Dogs for the Blind. In 2005, the organization switched from compulsion training to positive reinforcement. He cited that their pass rate on the dogs increased from 50 percent to 80 percent, while training for the blind handlers declined from six week to two weeks — another instance of that 300-percent improvement.

“The shock collar industry has convinced him it’s the quick and easy way to train a dog, and that’s total B.S.,” Mr. Milner observed. “Once again, studies have shown that in fact positive training yields 300-percent faster results at a fraction of the cost. Plus the sportsman ends up with a better dog and a much better relationship with the dog.” _


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I trained detection dogs using only positive re enforcement before 911. Its not a revelation to use PR in detection. I find it odd it took 37 years for him to see that. 
The article puff's up the person while deflating others. Not very nice.
Its the public eye so I guess its OK to comment. Like the 1 guy in a marching band says "everybody else is out of step"


Pete


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

bigbrit said:


> The fact that most of the comments on this forum have been cheap shots and that people are angry, proves that Milner is right. He threatens your culture and it is hard for you to grasp new methods and to think out of the box. The proof is in the pudding and this article exposes it.


bigbrit, 
I thought you were Mr. Milner???


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## Shields (Jun 2, 2010)

"Once a prominent figure in American field trials, he dropped out of the scene in 1982 after realizing staged challenges typically exaggerated the actual demands of a hunting dog." 

I guess he thought about it and his 'three-times' more effective training methods would make it too easy to mop the floor with the competition with these 'exaggerated' setups..... 

The holes in my birds help speed up the marinating process regards,
Eric


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

He is right about PR speeding things up ,,,and it is easier for new people to learn. but that statement is extremely limiting and misleading. Dog learn using CC and OC. Dogs correct and use force each other,,, to leave out these important OC's in a training regiment is purely an emotional decision. 

And if you think shocking a dog has to be brutal then you have very limited experience or have had poor experiences in this field. Or you can't get past the emotionalism. Its that simple. Just because other people mentally and physically abuse their kids ,doesn't mean you have to.


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## mudminnow (Oct 20, 2011)

this is quikly becoming a bash session and the article I admit seems/is aggressive. But the article was written in a Shotgun magazine, not a retrieving magazine. There are probably a good many people reading it that were like me and thought, i want a hunting dog but i don't know what to do. They get on this site and see all these different programs talking about how great they are and in the next post down is someone who is having problems with the same program that was so great in the previous thread. Its intimidating. Then you get the whole, find a training group thing, but when you are juggling home, work, and family life, joining a training group while sounding good, sounds like a hassle. It is almost like i need a religious conversion to become a dog trainer. I need to read these books do these things and go here on these certain days and then i will be able to properly train a dog. Thats what drew me to Milners stuff, it took alot of the questions/stress out of it for me. If you see a good behavior, reward it. I can understand that logic and put it into practice, (momma may have raised an ugly boy but he aint stupid). i have no desire to do HT/FT. I do have a desire to have a hunting companion that performs well in the field. Using his methods i have two great dogs that are a joy to be around, hunt with, and they get me invited on hunts. In a few years I may try some dog games, i may not. But this weekend i know i can depend on my dogs to do the task i need them to do in the swamp and that should be the goal of every training program.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Never read or spent much time reading about his methods. Having said that it is all about marketing and he seems to have a handle on it.. So even negative things about his program keeps him alive and well along with his associates.
In my other life, experience with various guard dogs, police service dogs, military dogs etc, my partner was a marketing wizard. He also promoted home obedience, train any dog over six months old to sit, heel, stay, down and place on lead in two weeks is the joke. Trick was to get the dog owners to work the dog after you gave your one hour lesson a week.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

If you poke enough dogs with a stick your guna get bit ,it seems he has poked a lot of dogs in this article.


His degrading of others to gain business in a hunting magazine to sell more puppies is insulting. 

It's much easier to cast doubt on others than to prove yourself.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Scum Frog said:


> Love him or hate him, people listen when Mr. Millner speaks.
> 
> Kind of like the Don Cherry of the Retriever world



More like Barack Obama of the retriever world. People are ignorant and only hear what they want to hear.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

QUOTE=mudminnow;But the article was written in a Shotgun magazine, not a retrieving magazine.


Exactly, so he market's people that may not understand the process of proper CC and as I said before paints a picture of evil to the uneducated.
You dont see him making negative comments in retriever magazines where educated trainers know that the CC process isnt as aggressive as he makes it out to be.



 But this weekend i know i can depend on my dogs to do the task i need them to do in the swamp and that should be the goal of every training program.[/QUOTE]

and there are many others that can say the same. Each has different goals.



There are several clicker trainers on this board that I respect greatly ,but they dont degrade others ,they only focus on the positive and not degrade others methods.


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## bigbrit (Sep 29, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> bigbrit,
> I thought you were Mr. Milner???


I am the son of the "evil" man.  LOL


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Raymond Little said:


> The article was and is pure 100% Bull ****. Milner/Stewart = charletons


Raymond, it's my understanding that some of our British brethren on here may take exception to your impugning their favourite soccer team, Charlton, as being akin to the aforementioned marketeers. (You missed a couple of a's in the word you're equating them to...:evilbat: )

By the way "Bigbrit"'s not one of them - he's Milner's boy/son.

MG


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Fran Seagren said:


> "Dog trainer extraordinaire Robert Milner wants to ask sportsmen a personal question: Would you discipline your own children with a shock collar?"
> 
> In answer to this first question - HECK YES!


I'm sure he wouldn't. Many people today don't believe in disciplining their children. Thats why we have so many little brats running around with no respect for parents, teachers, adults etc. We don't teach kids right and wrong, we just teach them to be little primadonna's who think they can do whatever they want. Today's society doesn't teach kids to love good and hate bad, they just teach them to love everything.

/Paul


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

bigbrit said:


> For those of you that missed this part
> _“The end result was I got the dogs and handlers trained in six months instead of 18,” Mr. Milner said of Tennessee Task Force 1. “The lesson I learned from that was the major benefit of positive training is that it’s three times easier for new trainers to learn.”
> 
> Deeper research into clicker training supported his initial observations. He referenced statistics from Guide Dogs for the Blind. In 2005, the organization switched from compulsion training to positive reinforcement. He cited that their pass rate on the dogs increased from 50 percent to 80 percent, while training for the blind handlers declined from six week to two weeks — another instance of that 300-percent improvement.
> ...


Where are these studies published? So you're saying we can get a FC or MH level dog faster with purely positive methods than with an ecollar for a typical dog, or even a dog from his kennels? Where are the data showing this?


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

300 puppies a year!!! WOW. That's a LOT of puppies. That's like 35-40 litters a year - or 3 litters every month. Wonder how often the females are bred? That seems.....excessive. 

I agree with Shawn - if he wants to use positive only methods, that's great and fine with me. But don't tell me I'm wrong and cruel to my dogs because I use a collar. Watch my dog try to bust out of her box when we go train and it's her turn and then tell me how scared she is. Listen to me hollering whoop whoop good dog, or hey baby girl when she's on the way back from a blind and tell me I'm not a positive trainer. UGH. Whatever.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

The biggest issue I have with his articles is the lack of a balanced viewpoint. Its not rocket science that dogs learn and progress better with high success rate and proper amounts of praise. Duh. Most successfully trained dogs get a very high percentage of that. Gone are the days of burn and fry training, the results didn't produce nearly as well, nor were they enjoyable for anyone. At the same time, I not only do a lot retriever training, i do a lot of OB work with a variety of breeds and I have yet to work with any dog that didn't need some form of discipline, in whatever form once in awhile. 

/Paul


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

mitty said:


> Where are these studies published? So you're saying we can get a FC or MH level dog faster with purely positive methods than with an ecollar for a typical dog, or even a dog from his kennels? Where are the data showing this?


this would be like me asking...."when I buy the Man Stink at the grocery store, why don't the supermodels chase me like in the TV adverts?".......
Marketing vs. Facts


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't like the kid analogy either. An adult dog is really tough, nothing like a kid.

And don't most of us punish our children when they are naughty?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Would you Louisiana and Green Mountain guys lay off Milner - my intel is he's too busy developing a British pirogue Lab and a British Mad River Avon Lab to be bothered with this piffle.

MG


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

mitty said:


> I don't like the kid analogy either. An adult dog is really tough, nothing like a kid.
> 
> And don't most of us punish our children when they are naughty?


Way off topic ,but I'd say most in my generation (I'm 36) or younger most dont punish there kid. They ask them to please stop. 

Hera's a conversation I had with my son Friday,he is 9 

He came home and said he got a "Caughtca" ( it a little note the teachers send home when they see a kid being nice ,helping others etc...) He gets these all the time and has gotten awards for being student of the week and so on and after awhile the reward is watered down.

I said we didnt get them when I was in school ,"why not ,where not good ?" I tried to explain to him that the things that get rewarded for in his genertaion are things that where expected from us in everyday life. and to sum it up ...not being introuble was reward enough. 

Then I went on to explain "POP'S" thats what it was called when you went to the principles office and got a spankin'. That was almost to much for him to grasp that a principle could spank your butt. I then let him know that generally if you got POPS at school you could bet the farm that you had more coming when you got home ,for acting up. 

He has a hard nose teacher by today's standards that demands respect from her class and is quick to give it back to her kids ,and I have great respect for that.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> this would be like me asking...."when I buy the Man Stink at the grocery store, why don't the supermodels chase me like in the TV adverts?".......
> Marketing vs. Facts





Have you ever tried walking passed a couple super models with it on? hmmmm Might be worth a try but be careful.


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

Shawn White said:


> Way off topic ,but I'd say most in my generation (I'm 36) or younger most dont punish there kid. They ask them to please stop.
> 
> Hera's a conversation I had with my son Friday,he is 9
> 
> ...


Age of entitlement (not bashing your). My niece and nephew think they are entitiled to rewards for good behavior. Amazingly (sarcasm), they think they should still get what they want when they are bad also because being bad never had any consequences. They are teenagers now, and they don't value anything they are given because they expect it.

My 2 cents.

Eric W.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

crackerd said:


> Raymond, it's my understanding that some of our British brethren on here may take exception to your impugning their favourite soccer team, Charlton, as being akin to the aforementioned marketeers. (You missed a couple of a's in the word you're equating them to...:evilbat: )
> 
> By the way "Bigbrit"'s not one of them - he's Milner's boy/son.
> 
> MG


Sorry, spell check doesn't work on I phone and It's not my strong suit anyway. Either way you spell it, the shoe fits many who Market the "Gentleman's Gundog".

Charlatan

A charlatan is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money, fame or other advantages via some form of pretense or deception.


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## Rick Vaughan (Sep 4, 2012)

_*I would just like to add my personal experiences in training. I've only been playing in this sport for 5 years, and I'm amazed that my first Lab even survived my training skills. My dogs are spoiled rotten in the house, but when we go training or to a HT, they are excited and know what to expect (running, retrieving and ducks). They work hard and get a lot of praise (some say too much in training) from me. However, they wear an e-collar every training session. Sometimes they decide they know more than me, or want to do their own thing...but a quick "here...nick...here"...No...nick...No...sit...nick...sit works wonders and it re-focuses their attention to the job at hand and myself. I've seen too much abuse with out of control handlers and e-collars, but I've also seen dogs make fools of their handlers because there are no corrections made in training. I guess I'm trying to say that without e-collars, my girls wouldn't have accomplished the goals set out and I'd probably not be playing the sport today.*_


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

crackerd said:


> I've gone and spit up my cranberry juice, you rotter! Kidney malfunction ahead.
> 
> Truth be told, I'm getting a kick out of the outrage to Milner's screed from the US pointing dog fraternity, who do predominantly use e-collars as "shock collars."
> 
> MG


Ummm, no, we pointing dog folks use them just the same as retriever trainers do.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Ummm, no, we pointing dog folks use them just the same as retriever trainers do.


So the pointing dog world has gone over to indirect pressure? That's an epiphany if ever I heard one.

MG


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

crackerd said:


> So the pointing dog world has gone over to indirect pressure? That's an epiphany if ever I heard one.
> 
> MG


 I'm sure there are still a handful of old style "trainers" out there, just like in retrievers....but for the most part, the e-collar use in the pointing dog world is soft, and very similar to the Bill Hillmann style of doing things.Way better results.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I wonder how that shotgun magazine would react to an article in a dog training magazine by a supposed expert claiming that semi-auto shotguns weren't necessary/are bad? After all, if you can't hit what you're aiming at with two shots.....


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I know nothing about his methods but have seen enough of these dogs run to know that they are not trained better than traditional methods--they are barely trained at all. I can't tell you if it is the breeding or the training but the combination of the two is truly painful to watch.

Better find some rocks when you put out the decoys, regards,


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> I wonder how that shotgun magazine would react to an article in a dog training magazine by a supposed expert claiming that semi-auto shotguns weren't necessary/are bad? After all, if you can't hit what you're aiming at with two shots.....


...pointing... You won't hit anything if you're aiming.



gdgnyc
Someone who frequently aims rather than points


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Good thing wolves in the wild (or not in the wild) never use aversive cues or behavior towards each other. We'd be upset otherwise. -- PETA


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## Mountain Duck (Mar 7, 2010)

DoubleHaul said:


> I know nothing about his methods but have seen enough of these dogs run to know that they are not trained better than traditional methods--they are barely trained at all. I can't tell you if it is the breeding or the training but the combination of the two is truly painful to watch.
> 
> Better find some rocks when you put out the decoys, regards,


I think this is an important observation. I have only a casual, passing knowledge of Mr. Milner's method. My Dad read his back to basics approach book several years ago and found it intersting. I'm sure Mr. Milner himself may do a fine job of training gundogs, and it is not my intention to run him down on an internet forum, BUT..... there seems to be a huge potential pitfall in a training method that focuses a lot on what you DON'T need in a gundog, and offers somewhat obscure/abstract methods to train for what you DO need.

Again, never really delved into his training, but his "Old Man and the Boy" stories seem to focus more on not training than training. A gundog doesn't need to be taught to mark, run straight lines, not cheat, highly controlled blinds, be flashy etc...... Instead they need to run the bank, pop, and find birds by randomly being released in the general direction.

It seems it would be very easy to say "I don't really need that in a gundog", and head down a path of excuses NOT to train. Again, I'm sure Mr. Milner can train a fine gundog, but you have to remember, most amatuers following a program end up with a noticeably inferior product than the pro in the program. Well, if your goal is a bank running dog, that will run a loose blind, and can't mark, AND you come up a little short...........well..........what have you really got in the end????


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Steve Shaver said:


> More like Barack Obama of the retriever world. People are ignorant and only hear what they want to hear.


Jenius.... the entire Brit Lab marketing concept is like Obama promising all that free stuff his supporters get by promising their vote. Granted, you do have to buy the dog (vote for Obama) but since it comes from the womb delivering to hand, you don't have to waste any of your time training it and you automatically morph from a ******* shock-collar using American into an English gentleman. What a bargain!


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i could not possibly care less about mr. milner's current training methods. i could not possibly care less about how many litters and puppies his operation "produces and sells" in a year. but there are three things i really want to know:

1) how many grey duck and mallard were killed at mr. milner's blinds at beaver dam this season? (for those who don't recall, he had an add for memberships here on rtf recently)

2) has mr. milner has ever stopped at "jumpin' jimmy's liquor and check cashin' store" on highway 51 south of memphis to purchase a flask of "hot damn" or "sweet lucy" for his blind bag on his way to beaver damn?

3) if the answer to 2) is yes, was he wearing that duck hunting "get up" shown in the pictures and what was the reaction of the local bretheren to his hunting attire?


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

It's actually simpler than that Julie.

Million years ago I was in the product development environment. Every now an then we would encounter a bug that just cost too much in time/resources to fix. The mantra was: If ya can't fix it - FEATURE it!!!!

Dog has no interest in birds? Market him as "Calm and Steady".
Can't mark?= Natural Hunter
Won't handle= Instinctive retriever
Eats Birds=Naturally birdy
Land Eye Dominant?=Intelligent retriever

Then you just convince the prospective client that all those other dog beaters are really just trying to compensate for bad breeding aaaaaannnnnnnnddddddd Aaaaaawwwwwwwaaaaaaaayyyyyy we go. Prolly ought not to actually expose your marketing schemes to close inspection (ie Retriever Trials) cause sometimes the spackle cracks.

All about the spin regards

Bubba


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Dog has no interest in birds? Market him as "Calm and Steady".
> Can't mark?= Natural Hunter
> Won't handle= Instinctive retriever
> Eats Birds=Naturally birdy
> Land Eye Dominant?=Intelligent retriever


LOL. that should be a sticky in the dog classifieds


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I checked out the Shotgun Life website. Judging by the layout I'd say it doesn't get much traffic or attention. The post linking it to RTF was probably the most it has gotten in years. Good marketing work fellas. All press is good press right? lol... 

When you've got a $15 dollar website to sell $15,0000 shot guns I'm not impressed. My thinking is that Shotgun LIfe isn't the authority on much of anything shot gunning let alone dog training.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Bubba said:


> Land Eye Dominant?=Intelligent retriever


Land Eye Dominant! Hilarious. I've seen the condition but never heard it described as such.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Pete said:


> I trained detection dogs using only positive re enforcement before 911. Its not a revelation to use PR in detection. I find it odd it took 37 years for him to see that.
> *The article puff's up the person while deflating others. Not very nice*.
> Its the public eye so I guess its OK to comment. Like the 1 guy in a marching band says "everybody else is out of step"




And he does this time and time again. So getting bashed on a Retriever Training Forum for doing that--surprises WHO?! Apparently bigbrit and muddyminnow and a few others.....those coming to his defense should do a search this isn't the first time that anyone who doesn't train the "duckhill" way is accused in a subtle sneaky way of being a cruel SOB, out of touch and creating unhappy dogs. And I would rather take 18 months to train my dog then blast through some training method with all kinds of holes that will bite me in the butt down the road. 

/paul and bubba are spot on.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Dave Flint said:


> Also from the article:
> _“So when you zap a dog on the neck, it makes him want to leave and he will run away from that place. You’ve trained him to run away from you.”_
> 
> Got that? No more "Zapping". It explains why you can't catch your dog when you get home from work.
> ...


I agree too ...That will be right before they get our guns....It has already happened in other countries...Steve S


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

steve schreiner said:


> I agree too ...That will be right before they get our guns....It has already happened in other countries...Steve S


Steve I've held that comment back since originally reading the article.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> I agree too ...That will be right before they get our guns....It has already happened in other countries...Steve S


There are a lot of similarities aren’t there? 

Both Milner & those pushing for more gun control assume that we are so ignorant & incapable that we have no business using either an ecollar or a gun. Listening to their arguments, whether referring to “Shock Collars” or “high capacity clips & assault weapons” reminds me of talking to my mother talk about the internet- _“David, can you help me get onto the Wikipedia to send your Aunt Cathy an email?” _


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## Fran Seagren (Jan 21, 2013)

Regarding the post, _"So the pointing dog world has gone over to indirect pressure? That's an epiphany if ever I heard one._" 

I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I will say I have used some indirect pressure with our two red setters. In my limited experience with pointing dogs, there just isn't as many reasons to use it as with retrievers. As most pointing dogs won't ever be required to mark multiple falls, much less run technical blinds, I can't see where it would be used that often. I've only used indirect pressure (on our red guys) when, for example, "Robert" is quartering in cover on the right side of whatever we are working. I want him to get into cover on the "left" side. I'll give a "toot-toot" (or in our stealth hunting mode, a "beep-beep" on his collar) to get his attention. When he turns to look back, I give a hand signal/body language similar to a left angle-back would be for a retriever. If he doesn't take the cast and he returns to the cover on the right side, I give another "toot-toot" and then a collar correction, and I repeat the left angle-back cast. 

Just for fun, I've also started my red guy, Robert, on the wagon wheel drill.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

When it comes to bird dogs and birds , a mis association of pressure can ruin a dog ...I had one get into a electric fence that was to have been shut off ...It pointed birds on the other side ..When the dog went under, it was all over ....The dog was bird shy for several years after that ...Steve S


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

steve schreiner said:


> When it comes to bird dogs and birds , a mis association of pressure can ruin a dog ...I had one get into a electric fence that was to have been shut off ...It pointed birds on the other side ..When the dog went under, it was all over ....The dog was bird shy for several years after that ...Steve S


Steve,

Are you implying that if an electric shock is mis-applied it can cause major problems that may be very difficult to overcome?

Swack


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Swack asked:
> 
> 
> > Are you implying that if an electric shock is mis-applied it can cause major problems that may be very difficult to overcome?


And a huge hush falls over the crowd.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> Not me. As soon as I saw the headline I knew all I needed to know. I don't hate him but I take issue with much of what he says and I believe he spreads misinformation which is generally harmful to others for personal gain.
> 
> I have nothing to gain from reading anything he says except higher blood pressure and a foul disposition.


Ditto. I don't knock anyone's way of training a dog. It's a means to an end and if it works for you and your dog, I'm happy for you. I have no use for Mr. Milner and the bogus info he puts out to sell his own dogs and program.


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## mudminnow (Oct 20, 2011)

Pals said:


> And he does this time and time again. So getting bashed on a Retriever Training Forum for doing that--surprises WHO?! Apparently bigbrit and muddyminnow and a few others.....those coming to his defense should do a search this isn't the first time that anyone who doesn't train the "duckhill" way is accused in a subtle sneaky way of being a cruel SOB, out of touch and creating unhappy dogs. And I would rather take 18 months to train my dog then blast through some training method with all kinds of holes that will bite me in the butt down the road.
> 
> /paul and bubba are spot on.


I thought the article was aggressive and not well written. The content of the article explained how he came up with his training and the process behind it and that should have been the point. Recently i was interviewed for the paper in town and one of my colleagues made a comment that was true but not tactful. It was off the cuff and we didn't think they would print it. Sure enough they did. Its ok, and i think some things were printed and presented in a way that might not have been intended but i have no doubt that he thinks some things going on in the retriever world are BS. Just as you think some ways that I train are BS. I know that people think i am an idiot and assume that i have poorly trained dogs because of the manner in which i train them. Thats fine, you don't know me or have never hunted with my dogs who have soft mouths, desire to do blind retrieves, and mark very well. 

And i don't think anyone is talking about banning e collars. ANd please don't compare me to an obama supporter. Head over to the POTUS and you will see that the last thing I want is more government regulation of anything unlike those who voted for romney and obama.

Libertarian regards,
Philip


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Swack said:


> Steve,
> 
> Are you implying that if an electric shock is mis-applied it can cause major problems that may be very difficult to overcome?
> 
> Swack


I'm implying that mis *association* with the stimulus can and usually will cause problems....You are correct in that if *misapplied* ( too much ) can cause issues too...Two different aspects in collar use...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

mudminnow said:


> I thought the article was aggressive and not well written. The content of the article explained how he came up with his training and the process behind it and that should have been the point. Recently i was interviewed for the paper in town and one of my colleagues made a comment that was true but not tactful. It was off the cuff and we didn't think they would print it. Sure enough they did. Its ok, and i think some things were printed and presented in a way that might not have been intended but i have no doubt that he thinks some things going on in the retriever world are BS. Just as you think some ways that I train are BS. I know that people think i am an idiot and assume that i have poorly trained dogs because of the manner in which i train them. Thats fine, you don't know me or have never hunted with my dogs who have soft mouths, desire to do blind retrieves, and mark very well.
> 
> And i don't think anyone is talking about banning e collars. ANd please don't compare me to an obama supporter. Head over to the POTUS and you will see that the last thing I want is more government regulation of anything unlike those who voted for romney and obama.
> 
> ...


I thought the article was a slap in the face of any trainer that does not subscribe to his way of training...the use of the collar has come a long way from the one he used way back when...It's use is making in roads into other training disciplines because of the ability to communicate over distance instantly...clearly and with out sending the dog into a flight or fight mode..Until our side of the story is told we are in danger of loosing the right to use it ...*If a lie is told often enough and long enough it will be excepted as a truth...* Steve S


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

steve schreiner said:


> I thought the article was a slap in the face of any trainer that does not subscribe to his way of training...the use of the collar has come a long way from the one he used way back when...It's use is making in roads into other training disciplines because of the ability to communicate over distance instantly...clearly and with out sending the dog into a flight or fight mode..Until our side of the story is told we are in danger of loosing the right to use it ...*If a lie is told often enough and long enough it will be excepted as a truth...* Steve S


Just look at the comments to that article posted on the website. Lots of mis/uninformed people out there that fall for this. If thats how you want to train your dog and are happy with what you get, fine, who cares. But why bash compulsive training or the use of the collar if you really know nothing about except it "shocks". If all you want is popsicle to pick up your ducks and run a 40-50 yard blind or have to throw rocks are marbles, great have at it. But a lot of people want more than that.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

rboudet said:


> Just look at the comments to that article posted on the website. Lots of mis/uninformed people out there that fall for this. If thats how you want to train your dog and are happy with what you get, fine, who cares. But why bash compulsive training or the use of the collar if you really know nothing about except it "shocks". If all you want is popsicle to pick up your ducks and run a 40-50 yard blind or have to throw rocks are marbles, great have at it. But a lot of people want more than that.


When I hunt the local public ground duck blinds I chuckle when I see the pile of rocks in the corner of the wooden blinds.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> When I hunt the local public ground duck blinds I chuckle when I see the pile of rocks in the corner of the wooden blinds.





Hey dont laugh.
Before I knew anything about this stuff that is how I taught my dog to handle without even knowing it. After throwing rocks for awhile my dog would take my cast without a rock. I thought hey this is cool and could come in handy. That dog turned out to handle pretty well just by calling his name and casting him. Thought I had invented something.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Steve Shaver said:
> 
> 
> > Hey don't laugh. Before I knew anything about this stuff that is how I taught my dog to handle without even knowing it. After throwing rocks for awhile my dog would take my cast without a rock. I thought hey this is cool and could come in handy. That dog turned out to handle pretty well just by calling his name and casting him.


Me too! Thanks for the reminder. 

My first Lab was back in the late 70's. She was a free, four old family pet and neither of us knew anything about duck hunting.....let alone retriever training.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

MY question of late to Milner is... When and where have you ever trained dogs for explosive detection? No one I know in that world has ever heard such a thing.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> When I hunt the local public ground duck blinds I chuckle when I see the pile of rocks in the corner of the wooden blinds.


Please don't bash my "program".....


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Dave Plesko said:


> Please don't bash my "program".....


Seen DP the other day with a clicker on his wrist. Throws rock, "BACK" with his perfect timing the second his dog hit the water I hear the "clicker" and dog popped right in time for DP tossing him a cookie to catch in his mouth on the way to the blind. Amazing stuff.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Seen DP the other day with a clicker on his wrist. Throws rock, "BACK" with his perfect timing the second his dog hit the water I hear the "clicker" and dog popped right in time for DP tossing him a cookie to catch in his mouth on the way to the blind. Amazing stuff.


He may have stumbled on to something hmm worth looking at the program.


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## Dave Plesko (Aug 16, 2009)

Criquetpas said:


> He may have stumbled on to something hmm worth looking at the program.


I have a clicker in development the size of an ATV, that sounds like a Volkswagen backfiring. It should work great on AA blinds.

The real secret of the program is to use bigger rocks for longer blinds.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Steve Shaver said:


> Hey dont laugh.
> Before I knew anything about this stuff that is how I taught my dog to handle without even knowing it. After throwing rocks for awhile my dog would take my cast without a rock. I thought hey this is cool and could come in handy. That dog turned out to handle pretty well just by calling his name and casting him. Thought I had invented something.



Oh I wasn't laughing at the pile of rocks, was laughing with them . In the early days I too had a pocket of rocks when my meager handling skills didn't get the job done. Used to tie em up in the blind too.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Dave Plesko said:


> I have a clicker in development the size of an ATV, that sounds like a Volkswagen backfiring. It should work great on AA blinds.
> 
> The real secret of the program is to use bigger rocks for longer blinds.


This is getting interesting . A new program in the making?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

years ago I was marshal of an akc junior test water series on a sunday afternoon down at Dead Creek were you all have been. one of the judges asked me to have ready a pick up dog and we had nothing. it was Sunday afternoon after all. so I made the rounds among the parked trucks and gave him a small pail of rocks and said in a loud voice "here is your pick up dog!" 

and yes a few handlers did have to ask for the judge to toss a "pick up rock"

hey, we got through the day right?


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> years ago I was marshal of an akc junior test water series on a sunday afternoon down at Dead Creek were you all have been. one of the judges asked me to have ready a pick up dog and we had nothing. it was Sunday afternoon after all. so I made the rounds among the parked trucks and gave him a small pail of rocks and said in a loud voice "here is your pick up dog!"
> 
> and yes a few handlers did have to ask for the judge to toss a "pick up rock"
> 
> hey, we got through the day right?




Saw this more than once at club trials back in the early 80's...some even ask the gallery to toss one once in awhile.......Steve S


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