# Thinking of putting a 6-month old down (aggression)



## Guest (Oct 2, 2007)

I purchased a started Golden bitch last year as a Derby prospect, but she was not what I wanted/needed to be competitive. Very well bred, AFC sire and MH*** dam, but not my cup of tea. I decided to breed her to see what she could produce.

I received a call from a pet owner from her first litter on Friday and with great regrets, he informed me that their family could not keep Lucky (told you it was a pet home) because he has been "resource guarding" and he was worried about the possibility of one of the kids getting hurt. As the conversation progressed, I learned that resource guarding is the new age term for being overprotective of favorite bones and/or toys and that Lucky had started snapping at both children and adults when these items were in his presence. BTW, this dog is a mere 6 months old.

I of course, offered to take the dog back and picked him up today to assess his behavior. I saw that these folks were pretty mild mannered when they came to pick up their pup, and assumed he had most likely been allowed to get away with just a little more than he should have and thus it would be an easy fix and he could be easily rehomed.

Let's cut to the chase. He was fine with my own 6 month old (not related!) and my 8 year old. I started introducing him to taking treats side by side with the other dogs. I gave him a bone and took it out of his mouth. Praised. Gave it back to him. Took it again. No problem. Hmm, where's the issue here? 

At one point, he goes into the bathroom and takes tissue out of the trash can. "Oh no, Lucky, c'mon buddy, we don't do that here." And BANG. He tries to play keep away and I take him gently by the collar to show him that doesn't work here. And that's when all hell broke loose. He started thrashing around like there was no tomorrow and I figured it was then and there that we laid down the law and I put him on his back. Now I'm not the strongest girl in the land but I have trained enough dogs (including force fetching) that I know how to hang on to one including keeping a grip on a collar, but when all was said and done, there was blood on the kitchen floor, and though there is nothing requiring stitches, I have several lacerated fingers.

My adrenalin is flowing and it's probably best if I don't mention what I am saying to the dog at this point. I call the pet trainer who has been working with the family and am trying to find out more information about that this dog's history and she is asking me what kind of RESOURCE GUARDING tests I did on the puppies before I sent them to their new homes. Huh? I try and tell her that we breed high level field trial/performance dogs and they are bred for intelligence and biddability and that we have never had a single case of anything like this. I tell her I cannot in good conscience put this dog back out there even in an "experienced trainer's" home or one without children.

She goes on to tell me that the owners had called her first asking if she could help them place the dog because she is involved with rescue and could help find a suitable home for him, yada yada yada, and that under her supervision, this pup had learned to surrender his toys vs guarding, blah blah blah...basically doubting my assessment/experience and giving me a guilt trip for my expressing the possiblity of putting him down.

OK, thanks for listening. Deep breath. Am I not being a responsible breeder for not wanting to place another family in danger? The owners contacted me in good faith with the belief that I would do what's best for the dog. If they hear I have had him put down, they will question their decision. 

This is not a legal issue since they chose to surrender the dog to me, it is one of ethics, but to whom am I obliged?

Melanie


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2007)

If it were me...

1) You're obligated to protect others, esp children, from a potentially dangerous dog.
2) I would work with the dog a little longer, even though this first situation would seal a deal for me... I have a REALLY HARD TIME with a six month old puppy exhibiting this behavior REGARDLESS of upbringing. Esp as you describe it -- unpredictable and inconsistent. That's the danger. Even if those folks did an awful job raising the pup, the fact that you got tore up shows that the PUPPY had no regard for your attempt at "domination". I just sent a rescue dog home -- I did rehab and training with him. Owners thought he was "fearful" and to me it was just that he had learned how to control his environment through snarling, growling, lunging. We got that under control. But it was CONSISTENT. I don't like that you tried to do the typical stuff and then the toilet paper was the problem. That would make me very concerned.
3) So next step is to do a FULL HEALTH WORKUP and make sure the puppy is in good health, blood values are normal, hip/elbow x-rays normal...

Of course, that's if you want to go to these lengths...

I hate it, but the fact that it was so vicious and unpredictable would lead me to believe it's an internal wiring problem.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I have yet to see a puppy that exhibits this severe sort of behavior have any long-term success dealing with it. This isn't commong for a "puppy" and therefore leads me to believe it's hard-wired and not something that's trainable. Rule out health issues to make sure there isn't another casue...

Good luck.

-K


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> but to whom am I obliged


I think you're obliged to yourself. What do you think is best?

I know lots of dogs are salvageable. I also don't believe every dog can be salvaged.

Make the best decision you can and live with it.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Melanie,

Not meant to be a shot at you. 

An Alpha Roll is about the last thing you should do to a dog when it displays "possession" issues. 
If the dog won't give you a kleenex, he sure ain't gonna "submit" to you. A safer more effective approach might have been, REMAIN CALM, NO EMOTION, put a slip lead over the dog and relieve him of gravity, until his tounge takes a nice shade of blue, calmly put him back to earth and take "YOUR" object.

Go to the leerburg site , Ed has a wealth of knowledge on aggresion.

I had a UDX SCH I Boxer female who was possessive till the day she died. Wonderful dog with 1 fault. There was no arbitration with her on objects. Give it to me or ya pay the price. 

John
________
Sonic


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## Pepper Dawg (Sep 26, 2007)

I've had half a dozen Golden's since the mid-60's and have never had one like that. Seems like an awful lot of aggression for a six mo old puppy! Regardless, your obligation is to make the call that in your judgement is best for the dog and other people. Has the dog been neutered yet? I have heard that neutering can take some of the "territorial aggression" out of a mature dog. IMHO, if he has faulty wiring, I'd pull the plug! Sounds harsh but so is being attacked and bitten!


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2007)

John,

No offense taken, and thank you to everyone for your comments. My post was long enough and I did not mention that I did um...gently suspend the youngster by his collar before attempting to turn him over.

One last piece of information. When I first brought his dam home, she attempted to grab a toy that was up on a table. I said NO and the 12-year old matriarch proceeded to deliver her a serious lecture about the rules in the house (just barking, it made me laugh at first). Said dam turns around and grabs hold of matriarch's neck and would not let go until I grabbed a broom and beat her off of her.

Deep breath again. I thought that was an issue of being a kennel dog and not understanding pack order. Now I seriously wonder. 

Next day she went to live with the next door neighbor. Next on the list is a spay.

I'm tending to think towards bad wiring as Kristie mentioned. I used that exact terminology when talking with the owner this morning, but I doubt he really understood what I was saying.

Sorry about any typos and dumb grammar mistakes. This is such a new one for me, I am a little beside myself.

Thanks everyone,

Melanie


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Melanie Foster said:


> I purchased a started Golden bitch last year as a Derby prospect, but she was not what I wanted/needed to be competitive. Very well bred, AFC sire and MH*** dam, but not my cup of tea. I decided to breed her to see what she could produce.
> 
> 
> Melanie



...the spawn of Satan?


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## Teri (Jun 25, 2003)

Hi Melanie

Tough situation.

I have worked with a several dogs who sound similar--3 have turned out successfully....a couple were euthanized or I sent them home stating they were beyond my abilities.

A 6 mo old Lab who had bitten the other dog in the house as well as broken the skin on all 4 people in the house; failed 2 obedience trainers. Owners contacted me as a final option before euthanizing. I expected to confirm that the dog needed to be put down. After 6 weeks he was a completely different dog...4 yrs later he is still a mushy, soft, snuggler. The owners still swear I switched dogs on them. He boards for a month every summer with me.

A 1yr old Golden who had almost killed another dog in the house and tried to bite the owner who is also a dog trainer by profession. Dog was to be sent back to breeder but I was asked to evaluate dog. Two years later dog is loose in the house with the other dogs; sleeps on owners bed; runs agility and the owner adores the dog. Absolutely no issues of aggression.

In the above cases the dogs had learned to use their mouth and voice to intimidate and get what they want. The Golden's owner did nothing but use food to bribe good behavior or to trade for toys. More importantly neither dog was truly aggressive, just pushy and learned to get what they want combined with no respect for the owners.

I would put the dog in serious Ruff Love ( susan garrett) or NILIF-type program. Would use a cloth muzzle for a lot of training and anytime you even think the dog will object--I like the cloth muzzles both for protecting me, but also because they can really take control away from the dog and sort of burst their bubble. Once I got good obedience and control, and if I thought I could do it without getting bit, I would FF the dog. I often FF rescue dogs I work with or even super bratty pet dogs as it is so black & white for teaching cause & effect; need for effort; consequences; dealing with temper tantrums. With a muzzle on I would make sure dog will let me manhandle it; make it lie on his back using my outstretched legs for support. I just sent home a 5 mo old FT bred lab ( in pet home) who would try to bite if you did any sort of restraint; nails; lie on back...the muzzle made a big difference and after a couple of major fits the dog gave in and was an angel.

All that said, the dogs who were successful were not truly, in my opinion, aggressive even though their behavior fit under the aggression category. They were spoiled, pushy brats who used their teeth. The owners had no respect from the dog...and had major relationship issues. I have had some dogs who I felt were wired wrong and were scary, where it was more than just challenging me using teeth. The rescues were euthanized; the one in a pet home was sent home with recommendations of another trainer and possible euthanasia. He was out of my league; was definitely aggressive; was a 6 month old Lab; had owners who were in total denial and I felt even IF I could get the dog better the owners were not equipped to make the changes necessary. I have seen some pretty scary dogs turn into angels...and some dogs with initially fairly benign appearing issues need to be put down.

Given what you have said about the behavior; previous training and the mother, I do not think putting the dog down is unreasonable. Personally, I would work with the dog for a couple of weeks and re-evaluate. However my standards remain high--if I cant get the dog back to where I TRULY trust it, I wont place it. I feel that IF the dog is truly aggressive you will likely never get it trustworthy. If I have any doubt...I will euthanize.

It is 3 am and I cant sleep so hope the post makes some sense and forgive any errors.

Teri Jakob


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## D1 (Mar 17, 2004)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> put a slip lead over the dog and relieve him of gravity, until his tounge takes a nice shade of blue, calmly put him back to earth and take "YOUR" object.




something about a lack of oxygen that will bring an animal to thier senses.....lololol


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## Carol (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi Melanie, 
I also had to put down a 6 month old for aggression. He was a Jekyll/Hyde dog, one minute the sweetest most cuddly dog and the next growling, snarling and biting anyone or anything within reach. We even got kicked out of puppy kindergarten for agressive behavior. I tried everything, contacted professional trainers and had him neutered, all to no avail. My last hope was to take him to Dr. Patricia McConnell a well known animal behaviorist. Her evaluation of the dog was that his behavior was so far off the scale of normal that he had some kind of neurological problem. It wasn't something that was going to be trained out of him and unlikely one that could be medically controlled. For safety and sanity reasons, we had him put down. It was a hard thing to do, but the right one in our case. You need to do what you think is right.


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

Melanie,

I am so sorry that you have to go through this. How hard. I don't know what I would do in yor situation. I have kids and there would be no way after a situation like that I could trust the dog again. Not to mention what in the world was the dog thinking after it happened? Was he feeling macho??? UGH..then, to think even putting him in an enviorment outside of my own. The feeling of responability would weigh a lot on my mind. If he bit someone else I would feel awful because, I knew the dog was that way. I am sure the people before had tried and when you have kids you obviously can only wait so long before you have to surrender the dog. You can't wait for him to bite a child first. Just like some people are just not wired right or maybe come from aggresive backgrounds so, can dogs. We just don't put down the crazy ones...LOL. It sounds like to me you have done what you can. The idea of Neutering him may not be a bad idea. Especially if you do the blood work on him then, you can get it all done at once. I am sure it is a lot more cheaper to just put him down but, just like people they can change and their may be hope. But, you have to decide at what point enough is enough and he won't change. It's so strange to think of a 6 mo. old dog raised in a family enviorment being so aggressive. I wonder at what age exactly they get their hormone??? Good luck and I am sympathetic towards your situations, it's not an easy one.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

D1 said:


> something about a lack of oxygen that will bring an animal to thier senses.....lololol


In the end you will have to do what you think is best. I would tend to give this dog a few months of the tough love and I assure you it would be tough. I am not talking about cruel treatment or beatings, but the dog would be collar conditioned in a hurry if it is not already. I am not suggesting that the problem can be corrected by using the collar, more that the collar is a safety device that you can always have on hand and the dog would be collared 24/7. This dogs tongue would have been blue on the incident you described and then we would have established who is boss. I have dealt with a couple like this and change was not easy but it did happen. There is no one course of action because each of these dogs are different. One other option might be to send her to someone with experience in these matters. You say this was not what you wanted for competition, but is it possible that someone else might not find that to be the case? This dog could be one that another trainer could work with better results and it may make a fine HT/hunting dog for someone without children. Just a thought.
On a side note, when I was a kid (9-10) my friends had a flat out crazy (mental illness) golden that had to be put down. I knew nothing about dogs really then, but I could tell you this dog looked like it had rabies as you see in the movies minus the foaming mouth. It would go off for no reason what so ever. Just flat out crazy.


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

Call Ceasar Millan?


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Melanie,

I'm just going to second Teri's advice. My wife and I have been through somewhat similar situations with chessies. We ended up putting down the bitch, with multiple titles including a CD, we kept from the one litter we've bred. It sounds like some of the problems could be due to the previous owners. Proceed with caution and always error on the side of human safety first.

Tom


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## SloppyMouth (Mar 25, 2005)

Watch a lot of Cesar Milan. 

1. Exercise
2. Discipline
3. Affection

In that order. Run that little devil into the ground. But not free running, make him follow via a lead; your typical obediece stuff (human goes first, leads, etc). At least an hour (he'll work his red-zone case for upto 4 hours a day, not all at once however) before you even start working on the discipline (e.g., the toilet paper/possession issue).

After an hour or two of some roading, he _should_ have a little less pent-up energy and be more receptive/easier to work with. Then work on the issues, more OB, etc. Since possession is the issue, I'd try to provoke that. As you did the exercises with the other dogs and he didn't react but when it was left to scavenge and _find_ something that claim it, I'd try leaving a bunch of stuff around (TP, toys, etc), let it go for one and then either cut it off before it gets to it and see if that illicits a response (you're claiming space and objects), if/when you can successfully cut him off and "change his mind" simply by refocusing him off the object, I'd then try letting it pick something up and you reclaim it. No need to get in a big fight; use the ol' flank lift to get him to spit it out. 

As for the affection, he's not going to need any for awhile; exercise and discipline and the "nothing for free" idea. 

You're right to be worried, especially with children around, but you'd think that at 6 months old his behavior could still be effectively reshaped. Dunno, but I'd give it a shot...and give Cesar a call as well!

Best of luck...


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2007)

SloppyMouth said:


> Watch a lot of Cesar Milan.
> 
> 1. Exercise
> 2. Discipline
> ...


I like the note about the "scavenging"... That's a good call and definately something to set up. 

I also like the idea of CC, NOT to use the collar (depends) in mid-episode, but maybe to call him off the thing he wants once he drops it or something like that...

I just have a pretty huge problem with the inconsistency. If you can isolate into something CONSISTENT (like scavenging), THEN there's hope. But if it's something that only pops up and never in the same place, I could never trust the dog again.

I'm a big Cesar fan, but I would never risk a child with a dog that had behavior like this that was so unpredictable even if everyone else in the world thought it was "fixed"....

-K


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Teri said:


> I would put the dog in serious Ruff Love ( susan garrett)


I have found this to be very effective in situations like this. Plus, things are not always as they seem. I got a rescue through my vet that was described by his owners as "the terror of the neighborhood." He was 10 months old. People seemingly were mild mannered and caring. Found out later that the husband had done some serious "corrections" on the dog to the tune of some fractures and traumatic dysplasia/dyslocation of a hip bone. 


YOu may find out that since you won that last battle, that the dog no longer engages in the war. I would give it a little more time before I made such a decision. The dog has not been out of the environment she was in to fully adapt/adjust to the new one.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

Melanie, 

I have been through this before and unfornately I owned an aggressive golden bitch(6 months old) and she was aggresive from day one. The pup I owned was also out of an AFC sire and a MH*** bitch. I had numerous people look at her (behaviorists, dog trainers, breeders,etc.) and she ended up putting holes in my arms. It was an easy decision to make to euthanize her when she went for my neck when I was bending over picking up a food bowl. I could not trust Dottie with my nieces or nephews and it still hurts that I could not do anything to change her behavior. I honestly believe that her brain wiring was off from day one. Dottie was very much like Lucky. She was sweet and loving on her terms, took treats like a pro, but if she got ahold of something, it was hell. She bite me multiple times with some drawing blood, others leaving marks. She went after my dad when she got ahold of a plastic bag and nailed him to the point where he should of got stitches. She repeated this same behavior with Retriever pro out on the east coast.

You are obligated by law to protect the safety of people and must notify future owners of the aggression if you do place this dog. If I ever have another Dottie, I would euthanize again. I know Cesar Millian would have had problems with Dottie. I had Dottie's health checked out(good) and I had a behaviorist look at her, and everyone came to the same conclusion; she was a ticking time bomb. I was blamed by her breeder for her behavior but I now realize it wasn't me, it was the dog. I believe Dottie would have been Lucky's aunt.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2007)

Another thing to consider/wonder about is what role the kids may have played with things like keep away or teasing the dog... But still, even if that stuff exacerbated any behavior, I would have a hard time with the extent to which he fought with Melanie when she tried to subdue him. that's a pretty big deal, esp at 6 mos old, that he would fight hard enought to injure her the way he did....

-K


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## George C. Tull (Aug 25, 2006)

Heard some good solutions so far. I just can't help but think that there's got to be a way. Hope it turns out ok.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Boondux said:


> Call Ceasar Millan?



You beat me to it.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

This is difficult situation, and tough on everyone.
According to Creek Retrievers: 


Creek Retrievers said:


> I was blamed by her breeder for her behavior but I now realize it wasn't me, it was the dog. I believe Dottie would have been Lucky's aunt.



If this is so then there is more to consider. 

Is it genetic or environmental? Or if the environment had been more controlled would this have been different? If it is genetic,and the dog can't help it, the kind thing would be to put it down.Is this dog able to be placed? There are people who have placed dogs that are predictably aggressive, but I put down a rescue because we could not figure out the trigger-I think the dog was touched.

The other thing is sometimes a dog will try something to see if it is ok-and if they get away with it it is-so obviously (Go Melanie!) he probably learned something, but will try again-there are some list members who understand about genetics and environment who have gone through this-hopefully they will contact you.

My lifestyle is such this would be difficult-my dogs are around kids, cats and puppies all the time-but I know people who have placed this type of dog successfully-drug dog people can handle a bit of a bite, and some people can handle it-BUT-it has to be somewhat predictable. I have a friend with a springer that managed it for years. 

Good luck,


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## jluther (Jul 18, 2005)

First, I don’t have a clear cut answer, only some observations and options. I find it really hard to put down a dog, except if it’s suffering. That being said, a dog that’s acting out all the time isn’t exactly living a happy life. So from the dog’s point of view, you may actually be doing the dog a good favor in the long run. There are certainly problematic dogs in the world and they cannot always be saved. Dogs that are hardwired (as this one really seems to be) can’t generally be cured, only managed.

Has this pup been neutered? In this case, neutering could really help. But if he came to you already neutered and he’s still pretty hopped up, well, that’s not a good sign. Adolescence is really a hard time, what with all that testosterone.

I agree with the post that recommended a fabric muzzle. I’m not a big fan of alpha rolls, hanging dogs, etc. Extreme confrontational methods often invite an escalation of the aggression. The dog hasn’t learned to do anything but defense behaviors. Think of FF: you’ve already taught the desired behavior, now the dog learns the appropriate release from pressure. Yeah, sometimes they go through trying out a few other methods of escaping the pressure that aren’t pretty, but they already have been given a chance to learn the correct response. With FF, you’re controlling their options so they don’t really get rewarded for trying out the wrong response. I am a big fan of lots of basic obedience and pack leadership stuff, clearly defined to the dog. And the fabric muzzle limits his options.

A few more thoughts: You mentioned that the dam has exhibited some similar behaviors. It would be hard to justify breeding her again. Also, check in with the owners of the littermates to head off any problems. Essentially, aggression tendencies can indeed be inherited; from there, good training and handling can help head off (essentially mask) these behaviors. It’s quite possible that all the littermates are just fine. I would carefully consider whether any of these pups should ever be bred. I’m speaking from some personal experience. I once had a dog with aggression issues. His sire and dam were fine—but a few pups weren’t. Turns out the sire had a “funny uncle” no one ever talked about, that had been put down for behavioral problems. The sire of my dog produced some very nice dogs—and some headaches. I toughed it out with that dog, but he never drew blood or challenged people—only other dogs. 

I’ve also seen the type of extreme behavior you describe. I’ll admit that in those cases, the outcome wasn’t always good. Then again, these folks were trying the old “hang ‘em” technique and it backfired.

Some years ago I had the privilege of assisting training classes taught by Patricia McConnell (cited in earlier posts). I got to see her in action with aggressive dogs. She made a point of not getting bitten. Besides considering her own safety, it wasn’t good for the dog (just reinforced the wrong thing). And it wasn’t good for the owners: by the time they came to Trish they were already horribly stressed. If the dog happened to bite Trish, the owners were really truly traumatized, figuring that if Trish got bitten…. Trish, when advising people under these extreme circumstances, would give people “permission” to decide to put their dogs down, without telling them that they had to. She’d say: “I wouldn’t blame you if you decide put your dog down. However, if you want to try some training first, we can do that.” And she’d work with them, especially teaching non-confrontational methods so that the owners weren’t put at more risk, and so that the dog could learn a different outcome. But Trish admits that you can’t save them all, and it takes a lot of work, and the problem could always be there to some extent.

Sorry to have such a long “non-answer.” I’m glad you’re giving this pup careful consideration, difficult as the answer may be.

-Julie


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## dreamer2385 (Jan 21, 2007)

Melanie, this is a tough one. Resource guarding is acceptable to "breeders" of some breeds. I know someone who has Springers who says they all do that! I don't think it is ok for a golden. I hope through reading the posts you can try to figure out what is best for you and the dog.. Best of luck, Maria


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## RemsBPJasper (Apr 25, 2005)

Melanie,

So sorry to hear your situation. But I've been there before. Don't know if you remember my posts a few years earlier on my Jasper. He was 18 months though when he exhibited possessive aggression, in particular with food. Neutering did not help. Two things medically, he had hypothyroidism which contributed a lot to his anxiety, and he had one bad hip. We treated for the thyroid and that helped a little, he became calmer in somewhat chaotic situations. But what sealed the deal for me was that he became so unpredictable. Some days you could feed him fine, other days one look during feeding and he was lunging after you to bite you. It started transferring to rawhides and then the truck, etc. 

Here's what I learned, the NILIF and tough love programs require A LOT from YOU. Consistency, watchful eye, just in general a lot of effort, you have to be committed. Second, do "hang" the dog, works much better than an alpha roll. He's 6 months so I would try to do it now while you can still handle him. Teach a "leave it/drop" command but don't bribe with treats, in my opinion. 

The biggest thing, my dog did NOT have clear leadership. The environment was chaotic at time, inconsistent, too many people with too many different ways of talking to the dog, dealing with the dog, etc. HOWEVER, this definitely was also a hardwiring issue. While a better environment would have CONTROLLED the problem, this was wired into him. One minute he was the sweetest thing ever, cuddly and retrieving and obedient. The next minute he was lunging at my back (luckily I turned quickly and in essence submitted to him) trying to take my arm off. The day I put him down he was a pure angel, I had my face next to his and not even a hint of aggression. But I gave him a good 6 months of attempted rehab, I talked to behaviorists, he was in regular training, obedience was good. Oh, he would listen when he growled and barked, he would still lie down, but you looked in his eyes and it wasn't the same dog, he could not control himself. I felt so bad for him that it made it easier to put him down. 

So, I can only offer you what I would do if it were me, I would give him more time at least. The dog needs to WORK, he needs a job in general, he needs to work for food, toys, treats, everything basically. He needs EXERCISE. He needs clear rules, clear leadership, structure. If after x amount of time you re-evaluate and find he has not made progress, then that decision is up to you. In my case, progress was made, but also A LOT of setbacks. 

I know you'll make the decision that's right for you and the dog, even if it's not what others would have done. 

Best of luck,
Kourtney


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2007)

I would like to thank everyone for their input. This must be the most nonjudgmental thread in RTF history, and under the circumstances, it is greatly appreciated.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> I would like to thank everyone for their input. This must be the most nonjudgmental thread in RTF history, and under the circumstances, it is greatly appreciated.


Here! Here! I'll second that.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

Sounds like Rage Syndrome. A condition found in some dogs. My friend just put down a beautiful English Bull Terrier at 1 1/2 years old. She had raised it from a pup and has 40 years of being a wildlife rehabilitator, boarding kennel owner, and numerous different breeds of dogs. She would never know what would set the dog off. He was normally as sweet as pie but a sound, a light, a movement could set him into an attacking frenzy. He attacked both her and her other dogs. After putting him on Prozac, running numerous tests, and attempting Cesar's program, she made the decision to put him down. After he was gone her other dogs became more relaxed and although she misses him, she realized he had the entire house on pins and needles. To me it just is not worth it. I had to do the same thing years ago with a male and he was one of the most beautiful Gascon Hounds I ever seen.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

After finding out more information regarding Lucky and his relationship to Dottie, I would advise to AVOID force fetch or e-collars that will add pressure. With Dottie, added pressure only increased her aggression. Another point to make is that when Dottie would snap, she would have a wild look to her eyes and it looked like she wanted to kill you, not just bite you. This isn't just a dog snapping at you, this is an all out attack. I will have to look into Rage Syndrome.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Knowing you, I think you have and will research and excercise all options possible before giving up on this dog. No one will think otherwise.

One suggestion I might add is you might want to find a busy hunting/shooting preserve. The dog would have a job that would wear her out and many have decent dog trainers. Human contact, especially with children would be minimal at most.

Good Luck!

John


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

Hi there. I remember the term "springer rage" when I owned an english springer years ago. Although my dog was fine, it was something I had heard about often and looked into it as I was curious. Seems it can happen in any breed, but is not uncommon in show line springers. I typed it into google again tonight and came up with this very insightful article. You'll probably find a lot more on the subject.

http://www.essfta.org/Health_Research/aggression.htm

Best of luck,
Marcy


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

You got me looking myself...another interesting web site...

http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/index.htm

mjb


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2007)

A lot of folks seem to be checking this thread. I know I would have found it hard to believe someone would have such serious doubts about a young pup. Until now.

Today, very briefly, we kept it simple and passive. Lucky lost all his privileges. We are logistically challenged here since we do not have kennel runs and our dogs all hang out in the house. Unfortunately, that means Lucky is spending the majority of the time in a crate. Thank goodness he was crate trained (the mantra I recited "the crate is your friend" sunk into their heads!) and he is fortunately not a barker.

I let him out to air this morning. When I went to the backyard to call him for breakfast, he promptly picked up a stick, backed up from me and looked me straight in the eye and started to chomp on it. I turned my back to him and walked back into the kitchen and shut the door. When I saw that he realized his game had not worked, I went outside to the doorstep where he was laying and gently took his collar to lead him inside to his crate. Yes, I realized the danger in that, but we were not going to play tag all over the house either. He was fine for a few steps when suddenly he got THE LOOK in his eyes. Second hand went quickly under his collar as he tried to back out of it, and I followed behind him to the crate. He would have taken a piece out of me if he had been given the opportunity. Despite the fact that there was no actual confrontation, I was shaking as I sat down at my computer to begin my day's work. I am officially scared of this dog.

I put breakfast in his crate. My 6-month old happened to wander too close to him and he started making a fuss. He lost his breakfast privileges. No verbal reprimands, just no food. (But tell me I was not worried about taking that food bowl away.)

A while later I gave him a bone to chew on (don't get on me for that, he's still a puppy and...OK, you can say whatever). My 6-month old again got a little too close, he again made a fuss, and the bone was promptly removed from his crate. Remember, we are still figuring this all out as we go along.

This afternoon I finally had a chance to get out and purchase a muzzle. Never did I expect to have to own one, but it will give him/us a reprieve. I was able to show him toys/bones he wanted and take them away and praise him. I am not one to anthromorphosize, but he did not ever get THE LOOK and almost appeared to be relieved it was not an option. 

I led him back in the house. He did not resist. My 6-month old walked near the crate while he was eating his dinner. He did not make a fuss.

I still am scared of the dog.

Becky, I would not even consider FFing of CCing this dog after what I saw. I would not endanger myself in that manner.

And John, while your idea is great in theory, a dog who is not sound of mind will not be rehomed by me. If he's possessive of toys, what happens with birds? Will every handler know the entire history behind the dog? No. Not willing to take that chance.

Anyway, not much of an update, but everyone has had good advice so far, so I wanted you to know more of the same is welcome. 

Thanks,

Melanie


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

I commend you for trying to give this pup a chance, but there are two big red flags in what you last posted-you are scared of the dog, and you have a 6 month old. IMO, that should give you your answer.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

I think her six month old is a canine unless I have been mistaken.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Melanie & audience,

This is gonna ramble, let me know what you think. Dogs like this interest me. They say dogs regardless of breed are 97% genetically like a wolf, it's that 3% that keeps them from eating us. This guy and others like him might be mor like 99%

Thinking you might be better to "tool up" with this guy. In stead of a flat collar maybe he wears a pinch collar with a rope, or better a section of chain (no chewing) now you have a handle. Invest in a good wiffle bat or 6.

You said he got a stick...I would not give him even that much freedom. Out on a lead, go potty back in your cage. 

Kennel or crate can be taught within a couple of day by chucking soft treats into his box, once he gets the word association, now comes the demand. Kennel, now you have a handle (the pinch collar and lead) and a tool (Mr. Wiffle) to ensure compliance. 
His next move will udoubtedly be not to come out. To which your response would be "empty" him out. Drill a couple of hole in the top of the plastic vari kennel, feed a rope thru, now you have another handle, gravity will do the rest.

As far as food and treats those things would have to be earned and would be fed by hand.
Earned being, start his obedience and the daily ration is the positive reward for the work. 

Most of all don't let this little heathen see ya sweat, expect him to failed, anticipate it and deal with it accordingly, all the while being cool as a cuccumber.

Ya think ?? John
________
herbalaire vaporizer


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Melanie, I commend you for trying to help this dog, but in the light of a close relative showing similar aggression at the same age, I have to say don't feel guilty if you make a decision to euthanize out of fear for yourself and your other dogs. Even if you make progress, you never know when it will return, and you could get severely injured.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2007)

Rule #1 if you decide to continue is that he should ALWAYS have a lead on of some sort. This way you are not forced to grab his collar and have your hands anywhere near his head. This also means that he shouldn't be left unattended as he can hang himself up on stuff. But it is VERY important that he has a lead on (sorry none of us brought this up earlier) so that you have something to work with.

And... when in doubt, use your feet and legs. Do NOT get your hands in there. I would step on the lead and kick him off and work to be stepping on the lead as close to his collar as possible. Make sure (sadly) that you have good footwear on... No sandals, crocs or open toe type stuff.

This sounds like it's far too nasty to pursue, though. And I feel terribly for both you and him. But this does NOT sound like a lack of puppy socialization. This appears to be something gone very wrong in his head.

Also, if you can stand it... If and when you do fight with him, continue to restrain him and hold him there for a long period of time if and when you get him settled down. This may be too difficult or impossible. But throwing him in his crate isn't going to give him the big picture that the behavior is unacceptable and that you have the upper hand.

I don't blame you for being scared... And I certainly wouldn't blame you if you chose to end it... It's a shame, but like others have posted it may be the best route.

-K


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

The term “resource guarding” may be unfamiliar and fancy-schmancy sounding, but there’s some useful information associated with it. Given your responsible attitude toward the safety of prospective future owners of the dog, it’s worth looking into.

Classifying the type of aggression a dog exhibits is useful in choosing how to deal with it, and in predicting the outcome. Much aggression, and other bad behavior, responds to good, authoritative handling and/or special protocols. But in placing the dog, you are of course concerned with what will happen down the road, with owners who are likely to be less experienced than you.

There are protocols for resource guarding. The NILIF program, especially as laid out by Susan Garrett, is highly recommended. Jean Donaldson also has a book on the subject, called _Mine!_ My understanding is, however, that resource guarding is a LIFELONG issue. That means, if the dog is truly a guarder and not just a brat, a future owner must be competent and diligent—or else.

People expect Chesapeakes to guard. Some owners feed them in their crates and teach their children never to touch their dogs’ toys. Some thrash their dogs and get away with it. Some don’t get away with it and put them down. People expect Goldens to be marshmallows. Expectations can contribute to a dangerous situation.

It is possible the dog is simply bratty owing to lack of good guidance in early life. Among other things he may never have learned to submit to a sudden attack from a human (you), over a “rule” he never learned about, taking tissue from the trash. He does what a lot of Goldens would do in a similar situation: defend himself.

As you are assuming responsibility for this dog, it is your absolute right to put him down if you are in doubt about his safety with people. If you are inclined to suffer doubt after the fact, you might want to get him evaluated by a good aggression specialist who knows the breed. 

I would NOT expect castration to be a panacea. The work by James Serpell at Penn, which I believe is the only controlled scientific examination of the effect of castration on behavior, indicates it increases aggression toward humans.

Amy Dahl


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> When I saw that he realized his game had not worked, I went outside to the doorstep where he was laying and gently took his collar to lead him inside to his crate. Yes, I realized the danger in that, but we were not going to play tag all over the house either.
> 
> Melanie,
> 
> ...


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## SuperX (Sep 2, 2007)

The pressure of correction must exceed the pressure of cause. 

You need to take off the gloves and make this dog behave in all cases no matter how hard you have to pressure him. You didn't get to nip this in the bud, but he is a puppy and can definately rebound from this hard lesson. The alternative is putting the dog down so consider this the last resort.

Right now it sounds like he is in control.

If you do decide that half killing him (figuratively) is better than full killing him (literally) then my suggestion is to start by trying extreme obedience - doing anything I can to make the dog break training and then correct strongly. You have to gain the upper hand and working on things he knows (obedience commands) is the easiest way. Then apply the same process to him around bones, sticks, tissues, food, etc. until you can call him off his bowl and he is totally OK with it. If he stops eating let him get hungry. 

I would not use the collar until he was properly conditioned or you run the risk of him only behaving when the collar is on him. If you do choose to use the collar, keep it or a dummy on him at all times.


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## SloppyMouth (Mar 25, 2005)

From what I've read, the rage syndrome deal is exactly as you described with the bull terrier; there's no rhyme or reason, they just snap. This dog is (or at least seems to be) guarding or claiming property; that's what sets it off. While what it guards may or may not be random, it is at least (as far as is related in this thread) being consistent with that behavior.

I don't have a problem with alpha rolling a dog or hanging it (as a last resort), but if those are executed properly (and that is the key) and they don't work, I don't think repeated hangings are going to do any good (and are actually abusive). And, as someone else has pointed out, they can escalate the aggression.

I'd seriously watch as many episodes of The Dog Whisperer as possible and see if you can replicate his approach and/or find a similar case. You can get every season on NetFlix and probably at your local big-chain video retailer. While what he covers on the show doesn't have a whole lot of carry-over for field training, this is a psychological issue and is tailor-made for the show; there would have to be a similar episode out there.

Reading that this may have a root in genetics, the last option may be the only option but you can give it a shot. If there is a genetic tendency in the line, the entire line should be neutered and no longer bred.


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## Teri (Jun 25, 2003)

A couple of tools I found useful with nasty dogs:

--take a broom handle and add a heavy snap to the end. While I made this as an aid in teaching down to dogs who relied too much on my body language of bending over, I have found it wonderful with dogs who like to use their teeth. I just use it as a solid lead, they can throw a fit and can not reach me. I like to attach this to a nylon adjustable choke collar ( or martingale type collar). I do not trust pinch collars on aggressive dog unless I have the dog double leashed as prongs can come undone at inopportune times.

--cheap catch pole. I use plastic covered cable which I thread through 3/4 inch pvc pipe. I make a loop out of the cable which allows me to slide over the dog's head and then pull up snug against the pvc. I never have to get close to the mouth.

--I have a set of cross-ties set up between posts on a small wooden bridge. I use it for force fetching but also as a way to restrain dogs for a variety of reasons. With 2 collars on, there is little movement they can get with their body & neck, tho they can swing their teeth around some. I will tie the dog out there for several hours a day as part of an attitude adjustment; I will offer water and it is in the shade. Many dogs through major league fits when they realize they are not in control of the situation. I use chain with horse panic snaps on the end and carabiners to adjust the length of the chain.

FWIW I never dreamed I would get so much experience with poor tempered dogs given that 99% of the dogs I work with are Labs and Goldens. Both eye opening and troubling.

Good luck

Teri


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Teri,

Now that's what I'm talkin bout !!!! TOOL UP!!!!!
________
AMC Ambassador


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## goldenguy (Oct 27, 2003)

Some questions about how and when she reacts badly. Also a little food for thought. 

Does her mother have an aggressive streak not necessarily a figher but just a very determined take no holds approach to what she wants to do. 

Has the puppy always been like this or at 6 months, she is having some of those changes of life (adult teeth, hormones, etc). There is nothing harder to control then a teenage girl/boy that thinks they are the biggest kid in the neighborhood/house. 

Do these fits of rage just happen randomly or are they the result of some predictable action (taking something away from her, rough play with other dogs etc)? 

If they are the result of some action, is the response something that happens all of the time or are they randon and unpredictable. 

Does she just stop the bad behavior as quick as it starts or does the bad behavior last for several minutes after it starts (i.e. she is really in control of her emotions vs she has really lost control of her actions)? 

When she has this bad behavior, how does she behave when she knows she has lost the battle or has she learned in her new environment that she will have to pay a price for bad behavior? 

Does it seem to be like a little spoiled kid losing his temper to get his way by trying to bullying/intimidate you? 

Has her behavior changed when she is shown the costs of her bad behavior and the rewards of good behavior? Bad behavior = punishmetn and jail time Good behavior = roaming the house and chewing up Melanies tennis shoes It may be too soon to answer this question. 

Has she learned that when a command is given she must follow it and if she fights back she will still have to follow the command even if she fights back? You are getting in the kennel one way or another, it is your choice. 

What I am looking for is this behavior completely out of her normal control (medical, 'bad wiring') or is it a learned response from an aggressive/high drive/determined dog that she has learned that it will get her what she wants because people are afraid of her or do not want to make her do the correct thing because it is just too hard (a tendency to aggression has gone out of control and reinfored by getting what she wants by imtimidation/bullying). Think of a spoiled manipulative kid that has a temper that has learned to get what he wants by imtimidation or do we have a psychopathic puppy. The first is treatable (not good for every environment but good for some) the second is not.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Melanie,



Melanie Foster said:


> I still am scared of the dog.


That statement alone puts the dog on death row, in my opinion. I know this is a pup from your breeding and it is very upsetting to produce a dog like this. But, there are too many good dogs out there that don't get the same attention and resources.

My vote would be to put the dog down. Can you be sure this behavior will not resurface in the future? Are you willing to keep the dog crated the rest of it's life?

Just my opinions. I don't envy your postition.

Tom


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2007)

I have had a couple of inquiries from folks who own pups from our Jake litters asking if this pup is a littermate to theirs. Absolutely not. Let me state very clearly for the record that this problem pup is not from either of our Jake litters.

Shame on me for trying to branch off into different lines I didn't know in and out rather than stick with the temperaments of which I could not be more proud. (Performance ain't bad either.) Guess I learned a lesson the hard way. Pony gave us a very solid foundation and I'll stick with that from now on.

And again, thanks for all the support.

Melanie
Firemark Retrievers


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## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

I have to second the motion that this is a phenomenal thread - I've read it with great interest. 

I will also second that Dr. Patricia McConnell is a very skilled resource - we are fortunate to have her here in Wisconsin. She's a prof a UW and also runs a private consulting business that, initially at least, was based on taking in the "last chance or euthanasia" aggression cases. I have been to some of her seminars and I know that Jeff has referred hard cases to her where the owners didn't know where else to go short of putting the dog down - and wanted to do everything possible towards rehabilitation. (A la Cesar....)

Melanie, you are absolutely to be commended on your handling of the situation and the angst you have suffered over this. As someone else said "I'm now afraid of this dog" is a big flashing red warning sign in my book. 

As a last resort, if you are so inclined, perhaps seek out the opinion of a certified animal behaviourist. I think it was Amy that said anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a trainer or behaviourist, but if the person is a member of CAAB, http://www.certifiedanimalbehaviorist.com/index.html then you are assured of someone who has at least the proper training.

Good luck to you and I think you know by now that you have a tremendous amount of support, no matter what direction you choose to take. You've already done more than most in the attempt to salvage this pup. It's a tough and sad situation, but ultimately, you have to answer to yourself, first and foremost.


PS, I too have heard of "springer rage", the first article citation given in this thread is fascinating.


Lydia


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## weebegoldens (Jan 25, 2005)

I definantly agree with the ruff love by(Susan Garritt).. Leash ONLY and ALWAYS. Food by Hand.. Thinking about you in this trying time.


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## dreamer2385 (Jan 21, 2007)

Melanie, how are things going?? Maria


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2007)

Hi Maria and everyone,

There have been no further altercations this week because Lucky was not given an opportunity to cause trouble. He has been crated 24/7 unless he is out airing on a slip lead. Even though he has spent almost all his time in a crate, it still feels as if we have been prisoners of his existence. It's amazing how much tension can hover in the air, even with an animal in question in confinement.

Fortunately, that will soon change. Because of a generous offer (OK, there was a little arm twisting involved ;-)), Lucky is getting another chance. He will be in the hands of someone with much more expertise than I when it comes to problem solving and dog training in general.

There is still certainly the possibility that he will be found to not be mentally sound, but he at least gets another go at it.

Almost more importantly, the family who surrendered him is satisified, and in fact pleased, with the arrangement and should Lucky not make it, at least we all know we gave it our best shot.

I will see him off at the airport on Sunday morning. Wish him luck.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Who is the lucky handler?:neutral:


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2007)

Hmm, I'm not so sure I like the tone of your inquiry. 

I'm also not sure if it really matters who the Lucky handler is. I do know that I thank them immensely for their assistance in this matter.


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## fred (Aug 12, 2007)

Good luck Lucky. Hope all goes well!


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Hopefully this will succeed. It's a terrible process to go through but it sounds like you are giving the pup his best shot.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> Hmm, I'm not so sure I like the tone of your inquiry.
> 
> I'm also not sure if it really matters who the Lucky handler is. I do know that I thank them immensely for their assistance in this matter.


No ill intent. I was really interested in knowing who you would trust with this serious problem, and in what his/her qualifications are... If you read a lot about cainine behavior, it's shocking how much opinions differ, and not all of them can be correct.


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Buzz said:


> No ill intent. I was really interested in knowing who you would trust with this serious problem, and in what his/her qualifications are... If you read a lot about cainine behavior, it's shocking how much opinions differ, and not all of them can be correct.


I bet Melanie got the details covered....good for you lady and hope it works out for little guy.


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## dreamer2385 (Jan 21, 2007)

I wish you the best of luck with him. What counts is that you feel you are doing the right thing for you, and for him. I really hope all goes well.. God Bless, Maria


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

He's coming to me.

My qualifications? Susceptibility to Melanie's arm-twisting. Besides that, I've trained lots of dogs that were raised other people, including a few dozen Goldens. I'm interested in aggression and feel that what Melanie has told us about Lucky fits a "picture" that I'm comfortable with.

While I have hung dogs and agree it can be decisive, I've developed a preference for more gradual attitude adjustments (something to do with 100-lb Chesapeakes and the lack of trees at our new place). My plan for this dog is not to adhere to a particular "method," but to handle him into compliance on simple stuff, then increase his repertoire. Also I'm NILIF by nature. Like Teri, I've seen huge changes in attitude and behavior accompany training. I've never used a fabric muzzle, but can see how it could fit with what I want to do. I may give it a try.

A number of the dogs I've worked with have been aggressive to some degree, including Chesapeakes, Boykins, Goldens, and Labs. I've learned a little bit about keeping myself safe, including spotting the signs of incipient aggression, and avoiding certain situations. I've talked to Lucky's behaviorist, who tells me he gives clear signs. 

I also have good support, in my friend who is a topnotch aggression specialist, plus I'm on a private email list of really good behavioral trainers.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

By the way, I disagree with many of you about "neutering." I think intact males are temperamentally more stable, as well as more trainable.

Amy Dahl


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## talingr (Feb 4, 2006)

I have heard that Melanie can be quite persuasive. She couldn't have picked a better trainer to place this pup with.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Amy,
Good for you. 
I know you're incredibly busy but would you mind keeping us posted on what you're doing and why? I am completely ignorant on how to handle aggression but would sure like to learn.
Thank you.
Take Care,
Becky


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Pickup at the airport was uneventful. Whatever this dog's problems, he is not fearful or stressy. So far we seem not to have found his trigger(s), and he is acting pretty normal. 

The behaviorists advised me to hand feed him, but it didn't work. He took food from my hand and dropped it on the floor. I put his bowl down and he ate, but didn't guard it at all.

My gut feeling is I can train this dog.

Amy Dahl


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Melanie and Amy deserve mucho Kudos!!!

Amy, for speaking out candidly with her advice and expertise on the topic and sharing her past experiences. If you recall, she was recently flamed by a number of folks here for simply suggesting that there may be such a thing as a Golden Retriever with an aggressive personality.

And Melanie for going public with a situation that many/most breeders probably would have kept quiet and swept under the rug. That took great courage and demonstrates real care and compassion for the breed.

Amy, I hope you keep us all posted on the progress of this "project". It is something we should all be interested in.

JS


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## hhlabradors (Mar 18, 2005)

The immediate fix to the problem is force fetch. Can't be biting and snarling if he's delivering to hand at the heel position.

As far as the guarding attitude, Amy, I have no doubt you have the knowledge and skill needed to fix it if it's fixable. If not, the dog got the best shot he could.

Good luck to all concerned.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Good for you, Melanie....and Amy!!! 

Please keep us posted..wishing the very, very best for the little guy!

Judy


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

No incidents so far. He ate out of my hand tonight. He doesn't appear to have any play-retrieve at all. 

Amy Dahl


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

Hey Folks,

Let's respect Amy's time and not ask her to speculate and let's not expect daily or even weekly reports. She's got a pretty good project on her hands and it is not going to be a quick fix.

Maybe in a month she can let us know how things are going if she feels enough progress has been made to report, or perhaps sooner if she has an "aha" moment. But for now, let's be patient.

Melanie


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## dreamer2385 (Jan 21, 2007)

Best of luck , I hope all goes well. maria


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

JS said:


> Melanie and Amy deserve mucho Kudos!!!
> 
> Amy, for speaking out candidly with her advice and expertise on the topic and sharing her past experiences. If you recall, she was recently flamed by a number of folks here for simply suggesting that there may be such a thing as a Golden Retriever with an aggressive personality.
> 
> ...


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## Gina (Mar 9, 2005)

Melanie and Amy, thank you for this thread. I only teach basic obedience classes and stress the NILIF system for bratty spoiled dogs quite often. 

I have been lucky and haven't had too many bad dogs in 12 years of classes. This has been an educational thread.


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## kgallich (Oct 25, 2004)

I applaud all for this great thread. Amy good luck with Lucky and I hope all works out for the best...


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I am sure everyone who has followed this thread is curious. I've fooled around a bit with Lucky and discovered lots of things that *don't* set him off. I think his aggression is probably limited to guarded objects, and at a fairly low level with those. I think by the time I get around to force fetching, he'll probably accept the pressure. Whether he gives up birds willingly remains to be seen.

His lack of a play retrieve is a bit of an obstacle. It's much easier to make the transition out of force fetch if they are retrieving ahead of time. Also, while he is pretty attentive indoors, outside he is more interested in the environment than in me. Since there's no rush on training him, I'm planning to give him some time to adjust and get to know me. I'll be getting to know him and choose the details of his training accordingly.

Lucky is only the second dog I've trained to do somersaults--rub his chest and he puts his head down and rolls right over. Anybody else have a dog that does that?

Amy Dahl


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Yes, my chessie does somersaults......pushes the top of her head against your ankles then 'rolls' into the your legs with her head toward the floor and does a somersault...it's pretty funny!



Juli


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

My pup did somersaults when he was little. I took him to a "puppy class" when he was 12 weeks old, and he just volunteered this on his own. After the class was over when I took him home, he just stepped to the middle of the kitchen, put his head down, and whoopsie daisy. He did this each evening after a class and no other time. I tried to think of a way to teach him to do it on command, but just couldnt get him to repeat the mechanics except when he celebrated a good class


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

sky_view said:


> Yes, my chessie does somersaults......pushes the top of her head against your ankles then 'rolls' into the your legs with her head toward the floor and does a somersault...it's pretty funny!
> 
> Juli


Yep, Fisher (golden) will do this too, we call it his upsidedowndog routine. Terribly cute 

--Anney


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## Gina (Mar 9, 2005)

afdahl said:


> Lucky is only the second dog I've trained to do somersaults--rub his chest and he puts his head down and rolls right over. Anybody else have a dog that does that?
> 
> Amy Dahl



I have one of those "rare fainting labradors" myself. ;-) It's funny because sometimes he gets his head and upper body down and can't roll right and flops right over. The kids all love it.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

And here I thought I had one of the most talented and amusing little boogers ever, and come to find out there is a bunch of these clowns out there. Dont you love 'em


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Just a thought--

My old pet lab just rolled his eyes and sighed (literally) at play retrieves unless there was some "challenge"--he loved to retrieve in water, he loved hide and seek with objects in the house or the woods, he begged me to toss stuff under couches/behind furniture... Will Lucky do any of these?


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