# Young noisy fire breathing dog



## Randy Bohn

Seems like alot of people have the same issues with their dogs...NOISE!!! I bought into a litter as did some of my clients last Feb. knowing some of us would be having to address noise issues....the time has come...

1) So...the dog is 10 months of age...noisy and crazy...
2) Going thru the yard program at the sit to a pile stage..
3) Must do something to fix the noise now or we may lose the dog totally...
4) Only using bumpers for retrieving NO BIRDS yet, afraid of what may happen!!

WHAT DO YOU DO NEXT?? Could anybody give me a step by step process to the fix?? Randy


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## meckardt

This was posted some time ago. I bookmarked it, goodluck!!!

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?73229-Vocal-at-Line-Correction-My-Version


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## Bridget Bodine

Ya mean YOU did not prevent it from happening in the first place?


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## knash3

I'd send that rascal to Randy Bohn right away! '
This is like the preacher asking us sinners how to find God (or Dog for the dyslexic)


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## Charles C.

If it was bad enough, I might stop running marks all together.


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## mlp

Noise is something I can't stand, not even a light whimper will do. Every dog is different and without seeing the dog there is no way to say anything. I f there was a step by step way to get rid of noise there would be no noise.


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## DarrinGreene

Randy, serious question. If you knew you had a potential genetic issue up front, why did you allow him to get to a point where you might lose him if you don't address the issue? We all know (well most of us do) that you're equipped to deal with the issue, but the question lingering for me is.. WHY? If he's a fire breather then you had plenty of desire to work with. Why not put the reins on a little bit early and seek to prevent the issue?


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## Randy Bohn

I left it go as long as i thought i could still fix it ..fine line when to fix and not fix with a baby dog...older dogs are lots easier but puppy brains work differently.... Randy


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## gdgnyc

What have you already tried? Was the noise always there? When does the noise actually start?


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## Justin Allen

Post him in the classifieds.


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## Scott Adams

Send him to me Randy. I'll see what I can do. 
One thing I;ve done, bt not heard anyone mention:
A bark collar on during down time, so he;s not getting away with noise outside of training.


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## Judy Chute

Certainly this is not a Golden Retriever noisy pup  




Randy Bohn said:


> I left it go as long as i thought i could still fix it ..fine line when to fix and not fix with a baby dog...older dogs are lots easier but puppy brains work differently.... Randy


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## JusticeDog

Always name fire breathing puppies something calm..... like sleepy. Or serenity or quiet. Consider changing their names now

Ruckus and chaos regards
..


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## WRL

JusticeDog said:


> Always name fire breathing puppies something calm..... like sleepy. Or serenity or quiet. Consider changing their names now
> 
> Ruckus and chaos regards
> ..


Good answer! Maybe he'll grow into his NEW CALMER name.

WRL


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## DRAKEHAVEN

What is she noisy and crazy about ?


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## Randy Bohn

The noise issue is pretty much gone, we worked directly on it for 5 days and 95% gone, the rest will be cleaned up down the road after dog is farther along in basics. Crazy and noisy about retrieving of course was the issue. Pup was pretty wild from the start about retrieving. I thought maybe you guys could tell me some of the things you would do if you had/have issues with your dogs. He's not going to be sold so classifieds are out, real live and true scenario here if you want to compare notes be back later..Randy


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## road kill

meckardt said:


> This was posted some time ago. I bookmarked it, goodluck!!!
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?73229-Vocal-at-Line-Correction-My-Version


Randy was one of the main contributers to that piece, as noted in the bibliography.
Thanks again Randy!


As far as the answer not letting it happen in the first place is really unfair.
How are we to know if we don't know!

Following this thread closely, I'm sure Randy has a plan...........


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## TBell

Randy,

First of all thanks so much for your input into this forum. Too many people answer with 'send 'em to a pro' or 'sell the dog'. These high strung dogs are like Thoroughbred race horses. People are expecting them to walk, trot and canter when all they want to do is RUN! There is a way to train them to be very good hunting and trialing dogs, but it must start very early.



Randy Bohn said:


> I left it go as long as i thought i could still fix it ..fine line when to fix and not fix with a baby dog...older dogs are lots easier but puppy brains work differently.... Randy


I know I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm not sure I totally agree with this line of thought. It is easy to see which pups are driven to retrieve already. They don't need to be amped up constantly with retrieving. More obedience for them. BALANCE



Randy Bohn said:


> The noise issue is pretty much gone, we worked directly on it for 5 days and 95% gone, the rest will be cleaned up down the road after dog is farther along in basics. Crazy and noisy about retrieving of course was the issue. Pup was pretty wild from the start about retrieving. I thought maybe you guys could tell me some of the things you would do if you had/have issues with your dogs. He's not going to be sold so classifieds are out, real live and true scenario here if you want to compare notes be back later..Randy


It would be really great if you let everyone know what his typical day was like before and then what you did for the past five days step by step.

My guess would be a few days of obedience only. Then start mixing in some marks thrown and only occasional ones retrieved when behavior warrants. Then probably working along side another dog or two taking turns with obedience and marking.

Now finally what is your plan for his typical workday now compared to before. Hopefully this will help all of those who have these high drive pups out there.

Thanks.


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## savage25xtreme

I use lots of OB in the presents of marks. Leave the stick and collar out of it. High and tight lead with heeling and sitting while marks are going off. Let the dog see 20+ marks during a week and retrieve maybe 1 or 2. It also helps if you dog associates something with getting to retrieve... like the beep or duck call on winger electronics. I will set up all my wingers push-pull the dog to the one I want then hit the duck call on it, if he is calm through the call, pop the mark. Even if he is calm as the mark comes out keep the lead tight and heel/sit drill away from the mat. Do this many times. The only time you want your dog excited for a mark is when you cut him loose to get it.

This is my version, very interested to hear Randy's.


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## wetdog

I have/had the same type pup. Last spring I went to a Lardy Seminar as an owner/handler primarily for line manners/noise. I can say at least for that seminar, my dog became the poster child of bad line manners. She had a huge problem with whining and even barking in the holding blind, on the way to the mat and while the birds were going down. Mike tried several things on the dog to get a handle on the noise part (she also had a creeping problem) and finally hit upon putting a bumper in her mouth from the truck all the way to being released from the mat. They can't bark or even whine very much with the bumper in the mouth. I continued that for a LONG time after the seminar until I think the dog forgot about making noise. A year later I rarely have a noise issue and if I do, a simple quiet and a nic from the collar quiets her right down. Mike also solved the creeping problem too...at a field trial last summer one of the judges mentioned to me that my dog was one of the best mannered at the trial. Thank you very much Mike Lardy!


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## Meleagris1

wetdog said:


> I have/had the same type pup. Last spring I went to a Lardy Seminar as an owner/handler primarily for line manners/noise. I can say at least for that seminar, my dog became the poster child of bad line manners. She had a huge problem with whining and even barking in the holding blind, on the way to the mat and while the birds were going down. Mike tried several things on the dog to get a handle on the noise part (she also had a creeping problem) and finally hit upon putting a bumper in her mouth from the truck all the way to being released from the mat. They can't bark or even whine very much with the bumper in the mouth. I continued that for a LONG time after the seminar until I think the dog forgot about making noise. A year later I rarely have a noise issue and if I do, a simple quiet and a nic from the collar quiets her right down. Mike also solved the creeping problem too...at a field trial last summer one of the judges mentioned to me that my dog was one of the best mannered at the trial. Thank you very much Mike Lardy!


The bumper in mouth technique sounds like a good idea! What was the creeping fix? Thanks for posting that.


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## road kill

On the noise issue, single marks only.
Noise, no mark.
Re throw until quiet, then dog gets mark and praise for quiet.

May have to do this several times until dog is quiet at line.
But eventually he will get it.
IMO praise reinforces the experience.


It worked for me........but I am not an expert trainer by any means.
I do know a little about this issue.

I would also add that if this issue is somewhat rooted in genetics this could be around for the dogs entire life.

We run lots of singles until quiet is acheived, then run multiples.
Marking and memory are 2 seperate skill sets any way.
We run probably 80% or more singles.

Good luck...............


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## D&S Retrievers

I believe the dogs name is "Butter" or "Jelly"??????? Pretty calm to me! lol

Randy is being the Professor......he's the best at this problem......he is teaching through this thread!


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## wetdog

Meleagris, Mike first tried the conventional stuff like "sit, stick, sit" or "sit, nick, sit" and various other things that didn't phase her in the least. The way Mike got to my dog on creeping was the instant she moved on the mat, he picked her completely off the ground by the collar and used the heeling stick across her chest several times while saying sit. He then put her back on the mat without letting her retrieve, and called for another bird and if she moved, she got the stick treatment across the chest again. All the while he was reducing the excitement on the throw, by removing the shot, shortening the throw, etc. He said he need a successful mark to teach her what we wanted, ie no noise, creeping and a retrieve. It must have taken 15 or more throws before she got sent the first time. Again, as with the noise, I continued the creeping work everyday for at least a month before I ever took back training with a group. I just used a remote launcher and worked alone on this. She is pretty solid now on sitting still on the mat, but even a year later, I still have the heeling stick and am still watching her close for movement. Once in a while I will still get a correction on creeping and still do the stick on the chest thing and denying the dog the retrieve. Also, I train once in a while with Jerry Patopea and he is well aware of her line manner issues, so when I am with him, the dog still spends a good 30-45 minutes in a holding blind while other dogs run before she is allowed to the mat. Hope this helps.


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## Meleagris1

wetdog said:


> Meleagris, Mike first tried the conventional stuff like "sit, stick, sit" or "sit, nick, sit" and various other things that didn't phase her in the least. The way Mike got to my dog on creeping was the instant she moved on the mat, he picked her completely off the ground by the collar and used the heeling stick across her chest several times while saying sit. He then put her back on the mat without letting her retrieve, and called for another bird and if she moved, she got the stick treatment across the chest again. All the while he was reducing the excitement on the throw, by removing the shot, shortening the throw, etc. He said he need a successful mark to teach her what we wanted, ie no noise, creeping and a retrieve. It must have taken 15 or more throws before she got sent the first time. Again, as with the noise, I continued the creeping work everyday for at least a month before I ever took back training with a group. I just used a remote launcher and worked alone on this. She is pretty solid now on sitting still on the mat, but even a year later, I still have the heeling stick and am still watching her close for movement. Once in a while I will still get a correction on creeping and still do the stick on the chest thing and denying the dog the retrieve. Also, I train once in a while with Jerry Patopea and he is well aware of her line manner issues, so when I am with him, the dog still spends a good 30-45 minutes in a holding blind while other dogs run before she is allowed to the mat. Hope this helps.


Helps greatly, thank you for taking the time to post that!


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## Steve Shaver

Randy I am anxious to hear just how you fixed this in just 5 days. Dont know for sure what you would do in a step by step procedure. Some of what has been posted I like some I dont.
I have some knowledge of what you do through someone else that you have helped. I think it stems from ob. Dogs such as this need to be held to an extremely high standard of ob and need to trust and respect the handler as part of the team. Basically I consider it indirect training. By working and perfecting one thing it gives the dog more to concentrate on so if the dogs mind is occupied with the task at hand it forgets about the noise. Dogs such as this need to be challenged. With my dogs (one of which I have this problem) it starts at the kennel. She is 2 1/2 and is occaisionally slightly noisy in training but explodes at a trial, I might ad that she is a pretty talented little girl. She basically doesnt make a move unless I give her permission. She sits and doenst leave her kennel until released. She sits and doesnt touch her food until given the ok. There is a routine for everything. Out training when it is her turn the crate is opened in the truck but she does not come out until I go to the tail gate and call her. Then she comes to the tail gate and sits to have the collar put on then she is called to heel then released to air. At any of these steps if there is noise or if I have to give a command more than once we go back a step and do not progress until it is done right and without so much as a whimper. Right now I am working on a linning drill and perfecting pushing and pulling on line with me as this is mostly where the noise exists. She moves with me well but not to the level she needs to. I am guilty of accepting less than perfection. I am also working on this with my 5 yr old. I have jammed a few opens with her but she has developed a creeping and breaking problem. I am hoping that perfecting her manners on line through this linning drill will translate to a trial by creating team work by perfecting disapline. I believe that the noise, creeping, breaking etc. is all about the dog being self employed more than a team player. So I am hoping teaching the dog to become more of a team player it will indrectly take care of my problems. Hope this makes sense as I am not well versed at putting my thoughts to words. 
I am seriously watching this thread trying to learn all I can on this issue because I have two very talented dogs that would be much much better without these problems.


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## Justin Allen

FWIW I was joking about selling the dog. I have one of these dogs and I have tried everything under the sun to get a handle on it. I've spoken with Randy more than once over the phone about the issue. I have highly considered putting rowdy with randy to try and get the issue resolved. Like others I am interested in knowing what was done to help in such a short time. Noise is not my dogs issue but creeping and line manners in general. To me they are pretty much one in the same though. Bring on the answers.


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## Justin Allen

For the people in this thread that mention there dogs having creeping and breaking problems--how did it get started. What did you do (or not do) to allow the behavior to become ingrained. I was anxious to get an HRCH title on the dog I mentioned. I was successful with that and we never dropped a test in HRC--the problem is he got away with creeping and bouncing around at the line. I could control it to an extent because you can talk to your dog in HRC. He has broken in the last couple of master tests we have run. I created the problem, not the dog. I would gladly give back that HRCH title if I could undo the monster I created. On the bright side it taught me a lesson. I learned that is not a road I'm willing to go back down with a dog. My next dog juice has had excellent line manners, he ran 7 derbies in 5 or 6 weekends this fall. He sat nicely for 6 of the 7 and at the most would pick his butt off the ground a little. That was the worst of it--in the 7th derby things changed. He seemed a little higher than usual, he stayed on the mat in the first but I could tell we were getting loose. My mind set went from wanting to win the derby to making sure we got out of there without causing any problems that would haunt us down the road. He crept off the mat with the first bird and by the time the second bird hit the ground he was about 2 feet in front of me. We picked up and went home--everyone including the judges wanted to know what I had picked him up for. It was simple, I've ruined one dog and thats enough for now. Disclaimer: if it had been the 4th series and we had a good chance to win--I still like to think I would have picked up. I don't know that for sure though, haha.


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## gdgnyc

PM sent re my solution.


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## RetrieverNation

Just recently addressed this issue with my pup and much of what I did came from the original post. 

Pup started barking, biting and doing back flips for puppy marks in the hall at 12 weeks. Kept giving marks until he did not want to bring them back at approximately 16 weeks. Stopped all marks and did 100% obedience for 2.5 months with the occasional test mark to see if problem persisted and it did. 

At seven months started re-introducing marks. Good results with heavy pre-training exercise and obedience lesson(mostly stick work) prior to marks. Only a few marks and re-bird for any noise or movement while on lead. 

Now almost at nine months and the pup is as steady as I want him at this stage but still a little cautious about using bumper boy (gun fire) or duck calls (so far all hand thrown marks by me or a helper). 
Mostly yard mark with a few test marks in the field.

May be taking it a little slow but I am very concerned about the noise issue. Not sure if I created the problem with the puppy bumpers. Pup was pick of the litter and I chose him because he blew all the other pups out of the water (11 of them) with his desire to mark and retrieve at 7 weeks.


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## TBell

gdgnyc said:


> PM sent re my solution.


Please try and answer on the board to help others.


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## road kill

I wanted to post this.
There is no 1 easy fix for a true Hi-Roller.

You have to change everything and have patience and persistance.
They do what we teach them to do.


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## DarrinGreene

Randy Bohn said:


> I left it go as long as i thought i could still fix it ..fine line when to fix and not fix with a baby dog...older dogs are lots easier but puppy brains work differently.... Randy


I assumed that much but what I was really asking was WHY? Puppies work differently, of course. BUT why can't it be addressed early on? or... why shouldn't it be?


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## DarrinGreene

road kill said:


> As far as the answer not letting it happen in the first place is really unfair.


Not sure what you mean Stan. 

I have a yapper of a puppy myself, maybe not to the extent of Randy's but she is pretty high drive. I have, from the very beginning withheld any and all rewards, including retrieves, affection and food until she was absolutely quiet, still and focused in the sit position. I have never punished noise. I simply included silence as part of the behavior required to earn any kind of reward.

This goes against the "let them get wild about retrieving for the first 6 months" theory commonly employed by folks. I don't know if that's what Randy has done, which is why I asked for his reasoning over letting the behavior slip. My dog began collar conditioning at 5 months and began FF promptly at 6 months.

I honestly don't know what I'm gonna get out of this dog. She was excessively noisy in the crate early on and would bark out of frustration all throughout her early obedience. She is totally quiet, focused and progressing through basics nicely now.

I may get shredded by everyone (including Randy) for doing it this way, but we'll see where we end up.


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## gdgnyc

DarrinGreene said:


> Not sure what you mean Stan.
> 
> I have a yapper of a puppy myself, maybe not to the extent of Randy's but she is pretty high drive. I have, from the very beginning withheld any and all rewards, including retrieves, affection and food until she was absolutely quiet, still and focused in the sit position. I have never punished noise. I simply included silence as part of the behavior required to earn any kind of reward.
> 
> This goes against the "let them get wild about retrieving for the first 6 months" theory commonly employed by folks. I don't know if that's what Randy has done, which is why I asked for his reasoning over letting the behavior slip. My dog began collar conditioning at 5 months and began FF promptly at 6 months.
> 
> I honestly don't know what I'm gonna get out of this dog. She was excessively noisy in the crate early on and would bark out of frustration all throughout her early obedience. She is totally quiet, focused and progressing through basics nicely now.
> 
> I may get shredded by everyone (including Randy) for doing it this way, but we'll see where we end up.


No, you won't get shredded. 

Did you mark the quiet behaviot?


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## Justin Allen

I've noticed that trying to steady a dog up early can bring about some noise issues. I've had it happen with my shaq and Ali pups. Backed off the early steady work with both and eased back into it again a couple of months later. No issues at all since. Anyone else seen this?


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## Justin Allen

Sounds like a solid approach to me.


DarrinGreene said:


> Not sure what you mean Stan.
> 
> I have a yapper of a puppy myself, maybe not to the extent of Randy's but she is pretty high drive. I have, from the very beginning withheld any and all rewards, including retrieves, affection and food until she was absolutely quiet, still and focused in the sit position. I have never punished noise. I simply included silence as part of the behavior required to earn any kind of reward.
> 
> This goes against the "let them get wild about retrieving for the first 6 months" theory commonly employed by folks. I don't know if that's what Randy has done, which is why I asked for his reasoning over letting the behavior slip. My dog began collar conditioning at 5 months and began FF promptly at 6 months.
> 
> I honestly don't know what I'm gonna get out of this dog. She was excessively noisy in the crate early on and would bark out of frustration all throughout her early obedience. She is totally quiet, focused and progressing through basics nicely now.
> 
> I may get shredded by everyone (including Randy) for doing it this way, but we'll see where we end up.


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## DarrinGreene

gdgnyc said:


> No, you won't get shredded.
> 
> Did you mark the quiet behaviot?


Yes, I mark before every reward.


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## Randy Bohn

Very true that most dogs are noisy for different reasons and if there was a step by step method we wouldn't have noisy dogs anymore.

Darrin........I choose to side with caution with youngsters, they can be forgiving BUT they also remember things you will forget down the road. I've seen people do some crazy things with pups and older dogs to fix noise issues, and guess what??? the dog looks like they were abused a few weeks later when you see them again. Right or wrong I watched the dog come in for training( day training) and watched him get higher and higher BUT was pretty sure it was still fixable. I asked how the basics were progressing and when I felt it was time to deal with the issue we did.I've seen people who are to strict with pups and transition dogs and they don't usually bounce back very well...I like a dog who likes to run hard on blinds and marks with good attitudes...to be continued


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## Randy Bohn

I watched the puppy come in for training 4 to 5 days a week for months, hardest part was not really knowing if the basics were solid but was 99% sure they were...
AGE: PRE 6 MONTHS
I watched the owners get yanked to the line for marks...(pup is running the show)
I watched the dog get pulled off the line back to the truck..(pup is to intense to be taught?)
I heard the dog barking in the truck when the owner would get another one of their dogs out to work..(intensity or disobedient towards owners??)
I watched the dog airing away from the line on a rope while other dogs are working...(pup didn't care one bit about the other dogs working at that time)
My attitude towards the pup prior to 6 months was that he was crazy to retrieve but I was not willing to do anything about it yet. Life for him was retrieving...retrieving..retrieving...he was the man to say the least! to be continued


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## DarrinGreene

FinnLandR said:


> Verbal praise or clicker? I, too, like your approach.


It's easier to let the guy I got it from explain it.

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=529

and here's am example of what it can get you with the right dog

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=701

The second video is absolutely phenomenal IMHO.


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## DarrinGreene

Randy Bohn said:


> Darrin........I choose to side with caution with youngsters, they can be forgiving BUT they also remember things you will forget down the road.


Yes, that was one of the first things I learned when I was bringing Ozzy through the program. He came out with a great attitude running hard as a result. Too hard for the newbie handler, as you witnessed a few times. Now after seeing a load of dogs now trained by a bunch of people, I know you guys are absolutely right about it.

Hopefully I have this formula correct with me new girl. She seems like she has tons of potential and I don't want to squander it. 

Looking forward to more of your insight on this one you're working with.


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## moscowitz

My answer is you and Sammy need to get chessies and then let your wife train them. She's a good handler.


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## Randy Bohn

AGE: 6 months to present(10 months)
Noise got to be worse so as the owner was taking the pup thru the program all marks for a period of time were surprise marks..meaning as the dog and owner came around the side of the truck towards the line as soon as the dog saw the thrower they threw the bumper(dog doesn't have time to anticipate the retrieve)
Noise went away when we did that...(took his mind out of the trained response, see bumper make noise)
If the dog had a genetic noise problem he would have barked anytime he was sent to retrieve or as soon as he saw the gunner but he didn't, so I went back to the original thought that the pup was running the show which is a real easy fix..to be continued...


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## JusticeDog

Randy Bohn said:


> AGE: 6 months to present(10 months)
> Noise got to be worse so as the owner was taking the pup thru the program all marks for a period of time were surprise marks..meaning as the dog and owner came around the side of the truck towards the line as soon as the dog saw the thrower they threw the bumper(dog doesn't have time to anticipate the retrieve)
> Noise went away when we did that...(took his mind out of the trained response, see bumper make noise)
> *If the dog had a genetic noise problem he would have barked anytime he was sent to retrieve or as soon as he saw the gunner but he didn't, so I went back to the original thought that the pup was running the show which is a real easy fix..to be continued*...


Great point, Randy! many people don't even stop to analyze noise like this....


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## Justin Allen

Interesting thread. I want more!!!!


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## dogshom

I agree with Darrin, absolutely nothing if there is noise-a small whine counts as noise. If I can hear it and it came from his mouth, everything stops and we go back to square one of whatever we were dealing with. 

I had a lot of fun with this around my property when he was a teenager-he would give me this horrible, loud bark to get me to hurry up and I would instantly turn around and go inside shutting the door in his face. I still do it in regards to my back yard or gates to pastures etc, if he's behind a gate and I start walking towards it-if he barks, I turn and go the other direction. Usually by the third repetition, he is quiet even if the others are barking. Just cracks me up. It's way too late to stop my shelties from barking, and they don't do field work anyway-but that little lab better be quiet or he's not getting ANYTHING from me.


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## Jennifer Henion

You guys need to get Goldens - end of story!!! :razz:

signed,
Helpy Helperson


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## Rnd

Randy Bohn said:


> AGE: 6 months to present(10 months)
> Noise got to be worse so as the owner was taking the pup thru the program all marks for a period of time were surprise marks..meaning as the dog and owner came around the side of the truck towards the line as soon as the dog saw the thrower they threw the bumper(dog doesn't have time to anticipate the retrieve)
> Noise went away when we did that...(took his mind out of the trained response, see bumper make noise)
> If the dog had genetic noise problem he would have barked anytime he was sent to retrieve or as soon as he saw the gunner but he didn't, so I went back to the original thought that the pup was running the show which is a real easy fix..to be continued...






Post# 1: " I bought into a litter .....knowing that some would have noise issues"



Randy,

Based on your above statements is this pup "genetically noisy" or "just noisy"???? 

You state that you thought you may have problems with noise, based on the lineage.

Then when you find that you have noise and do a diagnoses. You find it is NOT do to lineage. 

Was it do to training or lack of? Or technics?


This is NOT a wise arz$ question.

I have a pup (7 mos.) that is the most vocal pup I have ever owned (I've owned dozens). However she is vocal everywhere EXCEPT when working.

Her pedigree "suggests" (Cosmo) that she maybe somewhat vocal.

Thank you, Randy


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## Randy Bohn

RND there were 8 in the litter and I get to see 5 almost everyday of my life...interesting how the 2 males with me full time act alike and the 2 females that I actually own act alike BUT the boys and girls are worlds apart. The one other male(on this thread) is totally different than all the rest so far. The pups are all crazy to retrieve but sensitive, combination I don't get to see alot. The hardest dogs I ever had to fix for noise were Runnin With The Devil and Chavez dogs..WOW WOW WOW..The overall approach was a combination of watching the littermates......more to come


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## TBell

Randy Bohn said:


> I watched the puppy come in for training 4 to 5 days a week for months, hardest part was not really knowing if the basics were solid but was 99% sure they were...
> *AGE: PRE 6 MONTHS*
> *I watched the owners get yanked to the line for marks...(pup is running the show)*
> I watched the dog get pulled off the line back to the truck..(pup is to intense to be taught?)
> I heard the dog barking in the truck when the owner would get another one of their dogs out to work..(intensity or disobedient towards owners??)
> I watched the dog airing away from the line on a rope while other dogs are working...(pup didn't care one bit about the other dogs working at that time)
> My attitude towards the pup prior to 6 months was that he was crazy to retrieve but I was not willing to do anything about it yet. Life for him was retrieving...retrieving..retrieving...he was the man to say the least! to be continued





Randy Bohn said:


> *AGE: 6 months to present(10 months)*
> *Noise got to be worse so as the owner was taking the pup thru the program* all marks for a period of time were surprise marks..meaning as the dog and owner came around the side of the truck towards the line as soon as the dog saw the thrower they threw the bumper(dog doesn't have time to anticipate the retrieve)
> Noise went away when we did that...(took his mind out of the trained response, see bumper make noise)
> If the dog had a genetic noise problem he would have barked anytime he was sent to retrieve or as soon as he saw the gunner but he didn't, so I went back to the original thought that the pup was running the show which is a real easy fix..to be continued...


Goes back to my theory of more early obedience training for a high, vocal pup than marks. MARKS, MARKS, MARKS are just like giving a kid candy every time they go to school.

Imagine if they started training pup with obedience and very few retrieved marks at home. Marks are a very small part of the 'Balanced' or 'Total' retriever if you will. Many marks can be thrown with very few retrieves in order to teach patience and obedience.

On days that they came to 'school'......more obedience around truck, around other trucks and people. NO CANDY, or I mean MARKS. This sort of 'off site training' goes on several times before an actual MARK is ever thrown for the pup until it is calm and controllable around others.

Walk pup to the line several times just to watch others calmly, so it learns that each trip to line does not get CANDY. Only when pup can sit and watch mark thrown calmly and quietly does it actually get to retrieve.

For dogs who are already out of control going to line and on the line, this will also work wonders. Back to basics to regain control. Dog must learn that they are not in control. Only when they have complied with master's wishes does he get CANDY!


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## DarrinGreene

TBell said:


> Goes back to my theory of more early obedience training for a high, vocal pup than marks. MARKS, MARKS, MARKS are just like giving a kid candy every time they go to school.
> 
> Imagine if they started training pup with obedience and very few retrieved marks at home. Marks are a very small part of the 'Balanced' or 'Total' retriever if you will. Many marks can be thrown with very few retrieves in order to teach patience and obedience.
> 
> On days that they came to 'school'......more obedience around truck, around other trucks and people. NO CANDY, or I mean MARKS. This sort of 'off site training' goes on several times before an actual MARK is ever thrown for the pup until it is calm and controllable around others.
> 
> Walk pup to the line several times just to watch others calmly, so it learns that each trip to line does not get CANDY. Only when pup can sit and watch mark thrown calmly and quietly does it actually get to retrieve.
> 
> For dogs who are already out of control going to line and on the line, this will also work wonders. Back to basics to regain control. Dog must learn that they are not in control. Only when they have complied with master's wishes does he get CANDY!


I personally think all you're doing here with a young one is setting yourself up to have a dog that is out of control at a trial.


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## TBell

DarrinGreene said:


> I personally think all you're doing here with a young one is setting yourself up to have a dog that is out of control at a trial.


Quite the opposite actually. BEFORE I did this my dogs were out of control at trials and I've run quite a few dogs and trials......unfortunately I have years of experience with high, vocal dogs.

Doesn't take long on EE to do a little research.
https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedIn/viewPersonHistory.aspx?t=h&q=Tammy+Bell

or the AKC Judges directory
http://classic.akc.org/judges_directory/

My dogs now walk to the line and sit nicely. 

Bad line manners are no fun, and unfortunately I've had a lot of experience with it.


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## Cuttyfunk

It's funny that Randy mentions Running with the Devil dogs. Mine is a grandchild and she is a whiner in the hunting blind, but quiets right up when birds are working. She is a whiner in the holding blind, but started to develop a yelp when marks were going down. We started immediately with noise control, and it's still not gone. I basically gave up on an tests, and conceded that maybe when she's older and better trained I could start again.


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## Gun_Dog2002

Jennifer Henion said:


> You guys need to get Goldens - end of story!!! :razz:
> 
> signed,
> Helpy Helperson


Yep. Instant quiet. Just add water.

/Paul


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## Becky Mills

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Yep. Instant quiet. Just add water.
> 
> /Paul


Oh you evil thing


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## Bridget Bodine

There were some funnies!!


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## dpate

DarrinGreene said:


> I personally think all you're doing here with a young one is setting yourself up to have a dog that is out of control at a trial.


Why?......


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## sixpacklabs

TBell said:


> Goes back to my theory of more early obedience training for a high, vocal pup than marks. MARKS, MARKS, MARKS are just like giving a kid candy every time they go to school.
> 
> Imagine if they started training pup with obedience and very few retrieved marks at home. Marks are a very small part of the 'Balanced' or 'Total' retriever if you will. Many marks can be thrown with very few retrieves in order to teach patience and obedience.
> 
> On days that they came to 'school'......more obedience around truck, around other trucks and people. NO CANDY, or I mean MARKS. This sort of 'off site training' goes on several times before an actual MARK is ever thrown for the pup until it is calm and controllable around others.
> 
> Walk pup to the line several times just to watch others calmly, so it learns that each trip to line does not get CANDY. Only when pup can sit and watch mark thrown calmly and quietly does it actually get to retrieve.
> 
> For dogs who are already out of control going to line and on the line, this will also work wonders. Back to basics to regain control. *Dog must learn that they are not in control.* Only when they have complied with master's wishes does he get CANDY!


In terms of the part of your post that I bolded, I think about it quite differently. For me, it's not at all about the dog learning that it's not in control. The dog always has a choice, especially when you're standing there on the line or on an honor with the dog off leash. I want my dog to learn that SELF control is the ONLY route to getting the retrieve. I think good training involves enhancing the odds that the dog will make the choice you want. For the very young pup, I don't think of it as obedience, but rather the pup learning that quiet self control is the gateway to what it desires in life. You do this by allowing the pup to make choices and learn that different behavioral choices have different consequences. Of course, you carefully control the consequences so that the pup is reinforced only for the choices you like, and not reinforced for the choices you don't like. 

I started playing Susan Garrett's "Crate Games" with my pup the day she came home. Crate Games is a really well thought out protocol for teaching a pup that their behavioral choices have consequences, and that self-control leads to good things. The pup learns that sitting quietly in its crate after the door is opened is what makes its release word happen. You never ask them to sit. You go through a series of steps that conditions the pup to offer a quiet sit. Then, if the pup lunges forward or moves a paw as you're opening the door or after you open it, you simply close the crate door. The pup learns very quickly what it needs to do. 

My pup also learned that sitting quietly made me put her food dish on the floor, while bouncing around made it go away; same deal for going outside, getting a toy, and so on. I never asked her to sit, just let her make the choice. So from day 1 the key lesson she was learning was that sitting quietly got her what she wanted. Any other behavior got her nothing. You have to be obsessive about controlling your pup's access to reinforcement, so they're only reinforced for the behavior you like, but it's really not hard. You also need to set and maintain criteria. It's actually fun for the pup, because they learn it's easy to get what they want....all they have to do is sit quietly. They learn quickly because they get immediate feedback on their behavioral choices. You've begun to establish the foundation for self control as a life-long habit.

Everything else my pup has learned has built on the foundation established with these little puppy learning games. I'll admit that what I'm doing is a first-time experiment for me, but I really like the results I'm getting.


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## John Lash

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Yep. Instant quiet. Just add water.
> 
> /Paul


Nice......


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## DarrinGreene

dpate said:


> Why?......


I would rather not knock the dog out of drive with obedience just prior to running, but rather, teach him to behave appropriately when he's high as a kite.

I'll admit, Tammy's right and there are a TON of people here who do exactly that. Lots and lots of obedience. It works. Did for my last dog for the most part, until we ran too many tests in a row once and then we had a problem.

Just an opinion and slightly different way of looking at things. Whatever works works.


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## Randy Bohn

If your basic program obedience is good at home meaning here is here, sit is sit, heel is heel then it's time to take it to the field. Most people in the dog world cause their own noise and out of control issues because of multiple commands starting at home. 15 years ago when I first started training dogs the big question in the dog world was do you keep your dogs in the house or out?? Reason?? Because people drop standards in the house...

Caution...there are two sides of the fence in a pups brain the fun side and the other side where we teach cc,ff, etc. If you start combining both worlds in the field to quickly you will ruin a young dogs attitude.
Appr. 7 days ago the fix process began....more to come


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## TBell

Darrin,

It really is very individual from dog to dog. You have to balance tests and training with behavior. Poor behavior stop testing....immediately. This means moving just one foot!

Randy,

Yes, very hard to differentiate in the dogs mind between obedience and being a house dog. It is an extreme balancing act. Attitude also comes from 'balance' between field work and obedience. I am still a newbie at this, but I think I have a better grasp.


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## Randy Bohn

The dog apparently had no respect for the owner so I made the dog aware that we actually did exist in the retrieving world:

1) DO NOT let your dog push and rush you to get the collar on his/her neck..jump out of the truck and take off running around being a bad citizen...We made the pup sit calmly first and then collar went on him, when he decided to become unruly the process started over again until the pup gave in and sat in a calm attentive way. People always ask how long did that take to accomplish?? Patience...as long as it takes is the answer, why do you think people use harsh methods to accomplish this?? ...why don't majority of pro trainers tackle hard cases like noise?? TIME!!! Control your temper and realize that your in for a battle of wills, had 1 dog come in for line and noise issues and it took him 45 minutes to figure out he wasn't going to get away with not sitting in remote position 4 ft. from me on a leash..


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## Randy Bohn

Step 2) New standards applied around the truck.. It was called sit and do nothing until your quiet..off the truck it's time to rock and roll in his world...Gave him the command of sit and walked away a few feet and of course he got up..took control of the dog and gave a sit correction, what level is up to you and your dog in the field to accomplish what you wanted him to do in the first place.. This has to be done 100% or your wasting time...dog thinks he won again.
Once we won the initial battle of sit,stay we walked farther away from him and of course obedience fell apart again...so back to the point of failure and a sit correction given again...Keep in mind your goal IS NOT to get marks until your dog is paying attention to you so your first day out may or may not be a marking day for your dog.


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## dpate

DarrinGreene said:


> I would rather not knock the dog out of drive with obedience just prior to running, but rather, teach him to behave appropriately when he's high as a kite.
> 
> I'll admit, Tammy's right and there are a TON of people here who do exactly that. Lots and lots of obedience. It works. Did for my last dog for the most part, until we ran too many tests in a row once and then we had a problem.
> 
> Just an opinion and slightly different way of looking at things. Whatever works works.


Darrin, 

I see you know Michael Ellis's stuff from your past posts so do you not agree that obedience can actually put a dog into drive? 

I am a new trainer so I don't have the 100s or 1000s of dogs that the pros have to base this off but I really believe that it is not the obedience that take the drive out of dogs, its the corrections they get when their obedience isn't 100% while retrieving. That is something we as trainer have control of (don't put dogs in position to fail/be corrected). I have a very high drive dog who I don't believe has ever had a correction on the line. As a very young pup, I taught sit with marker/treat, when that was 100% I moved to a higher distraction environment, When that was 100% I twrilled a bumper around, if she sat calmly, marked/treated and that continued until we were were throwing bumpers and she sat calmly. No corrections if she made a mistake, simply denied retrieves or denied treats. If she got it right, mark/reward (with treat or retrieve). The dog was in drive for obedience and in drive to retrieve. No corrections = no loss of drive. 

Again, I'm no expert but it worked with my high drive dog who tends to be noisy outside of retrieving. What are your thoughts?

EDIT: I see this only working wth young puppies.


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## Randy Bohn

Step 3) Release the dog to air and loosen up walking away from the line...call the dog back to the truck and now walk towards the line together at a controlled heel...that could be another 45 minute task to accomplish, when you feel your blood pressure rising just stop and stand still awhile, breath deep and go at it again.
When your 15 yds from line or the holding blind stop and put your dog at a sit, when your sure the dog is ok to leave, walk away, you now just made your dog responsible for his actions on his so called play ground. He gets up he gets a sit correction...he creeps forward he's placed back to the point of failure, he breaks while watching other dogs running correct as you normally would for a break. When we did this with our noisy 10 month old he sat and watched and whined..barked..whimpered..you name it he did it. Translated he was saying I don't like this...it's all about me..unless the dog moves ignore it. The barking/whining went down to a slight whimper but it took about 30 mins. He finally gave in!! He laid down and started eating grass, pistols going off and he was eating grass, awesome, we broke him like a wild stallion without the whiffle ball bats, crops and all that other stuff, we got into his brain...to be continued


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## gdgnyc

Thank you very much for your step by step approach to this problem.


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## dpate

2nd that! Thanks Randy! Great stuff.


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## Randy Bohn

Step 4) Proceed at a heel towards the line when the dog settles down, as long as the dog remains under control take him to the line BUT put him in the honor box. You can stay with the dog or sit down nearby up to the individual. Same rules apply no moving..creeping...breaking..if he makes noise (and he will) ignore it, it will go away and hopefully quicker than the last time. When he behaves walk over to the dog and pretend that it's his turn to retrieve and when he becomes animated go into obedience mode, 360 degree heel drills, back up, side step,anything where he has to pay attention to you and not the excitement in the field. High standards apply here for sure, collar by your knee at all times. When you made your point return him to the honor box and sit down nearby and watch the dogs reaction...priceless...oh yeah still no bats or whips, all mental break down for the dog...Boot Camp!! to be continued...


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## TBell

sixpacklabs said:


> In terms of the part of your post that I bolded, I think about it quite differently. For me, it's not at all about the dog learning that it's not in control. The dog always has a choice, especially when you're standing there on the line or on an honor with the dog off leash. I want my dog to learn that SELF control is the ONLY route to getting the retrieve. I think good training involves enhancing the odds that the dog will make the choice you want. For the very young pup, I don't think of it as obedience, but rather the pup learning that quiet self control is the gateway to what it desires in life. You do this by allowing the pup to make choices and learn that different behavioral choices have different consequences. Of course, you carefully control the consequences so that the pup is reinforced only for the choices you like, and not reinforced for the choices you don't like.
> 
> I started playing Susan Garrett's "Crate Games" with my pup the day she came home. Crate Games is a really well thought out protocol for teaching a pup that their behavioral choices have consequences, and that self-control leads to good things. The pup learns that sitting quietly in its crate after the door is opened is what makes its release word happen. You never ask them to sit. You go through a series of steps that conditions the pup to offer a quiet sit. Then, if the pup lunges forward or moves a paw as you're opening the door or after you open it, you simply close the crate door. The pup learns very quickly what it needs to do.
> 
> My pup also learned that sitting quietly made me put her food dish on the floor, while bouncing around made it go away; same deal for going outside, getting a toy, and so on. I never asked her to sit, just let her make the choice. So from day 1 the key lesson she was learning was that sitting quietly got her what she wanted. Any other behavior got her nothing. You have to be obsessive about controlling your pup's access to reinforcement, so they're only reinforced for the behavior you like, but it's really not hard. You also need to set and maintain criteria. It's actually fun for the pup, because they learn it's easy to get what they want....all they have to do is sit quietly. They learn quickly because they get immediate feedback on their behavioral choices. You've begun to establish the foundation for self control as a life-long habit.
> 
> Everything else my pup has learned has built on the foundation established with these little puppy learning games. I'll admit that what I'm doing is a first-time experiment for me, but I really like the results I'm getting.


You are correct in that the dog is ultimately in charge of the decision making. Making the right decision ultimately gets him what he wants.

My point here is that the 'fire breathing dog' we are discussing is focused on what 'he' wants and not what the 'master' wants, therefore, the dog is in the driver's seat.

Randy seems to have found the lack of obedience and lack of focus on the 'master' here and now can work on redirecting that focus back on the handler.

Once focus is redirected to the master, the noise should be drastically reduced. The 'master' will now be in control of every facet of the dog's life beginning at home. 'Master' tells dog when to get out of crate/truck, not 'dog'. 'Master' tells dog when to eat, not 'dog'. 'Master' goes through door first, not 'dog' etc.

In the field redirect focus to 'master' not 'marks'. Dog gets 'marks' when he has done what 'master' directs. For you 'treat' oriented trainers which I am not opposed to at all, my 'fire breathing dragon' won't touch a treat when there is a bumper down, much less a bird. So for them the 'treat' is the 'retrieve'. You can also use a marker such as 'good' when they actually are doing what you want.

Remember that each dog is different and the amount of obedience will vary from dog to dog. No obedience does not diminish desire, it simply controls it. And yes, most of this can be done with very little collar correction, but the varies from dog to dog also. 

Once last point that 'fire breathing dragon' owners need to remember is that the dog does need to release his immense energy frequently. Don't expect them to sit for hours.....it is simply not fair. They need to run and explode just like a kid at recess. So give them plenty of 'recesses' whether it is fun bumpers, 4 wheeling, biking whatever you and they enjoy!


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## hotel4dogs

This has been a very informative thread.
I'm a new trainer, too, but I do want to comment on this statement. 
I disagree. I firmly believe, in all dog sport venues, that it's not the corrections they get that takes the drive out of dogs, it's the corrections they get *that they don't understand*.
Maybe just true of goldens, dunno, never trained a lab. But a well deserved correction, given in a timely manner, is typically not a problem. When you have a problem is when the dog doesn't know what he did to deserve the correction. (As in your example, if the dog thought he was being corrected for retrieving, it might cause an issue. If the dog KNEW he was being corrected for going before being sent, no problem).
IMHAOWO.




dpate said:


> I am a new trainer so I don't have the 100s or 1000s of dogs that the pros have to base this off but I really believe that it is not the obedience that take the drive out of dogs, *its the corrections they get when their obedience isn't 100% while retrieving.* That is something we as trainer have control of (don't put dogs in position to fail/be corrected). .


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## DarrinGreene

dpate said:


> Darrin,
> 
> I see you know Michael Ellis's stuff from your past posts so do you not agree that obedience can actually put a dog into drive?
> 
> No corrections = no loss of drive.
> 
> Again, I'm no expert but it worked with my high drive dog who tends to be noisy outside of retrieving. What are your thoughts?
> 
> EDIT: I see this only working wth young puppies.


There's obedience and then there's obedience. The obedience I routinely see applied to retrievers, much like the rest of the training process, tends to be almost completely based in compulsion (corrections) once the dog reaches field maturity. This method definitely reins in the high drive dog and puts him in a frame of mind where compliance is more likely, hence the success of strong (compulsion based) obedience in the trial world. Also, consistency and the patience to "win the battle of wills" that Randy was talking about will definitely create a new set of habits in a dog if they are not there already. Randy and many others here have been very successful with those methods. Randy in particular with the high drive models we all love so much.

We also hear routinely though about dogs that are good in training and otherwise (who knows what those standards are or how consistent) and then blow up at a trial. I think the main reason for this is drive. The drive that comes on in that environment can be very hard to recreate in training and if someone has been squashing the dog in training, they sometimes lose their minds with all the excitement at a trial/test. 

I think a balanced and consistent approach to obedience would have some legs in terms of helping folks with that problem. Randy, Tammy and many others here have working approaches but they are experienced folks with many many dogs and tests under their belt. I think some of the less experienced folks (myself included) benefit from thinking about teaching dogs to think and perform in a high drive state outside the test environment, where you really can't train.

The patience and clear cut consistency you hear in Randy's step by step process (correct for movement ONLY, let the dog figure out the rest on his own) is by and large lost on a lot of people. That's why you hear of so many problems with these kinds of issues. Until I spent all day every day with a truck load of dogs to train I had no IDEA what patience and consistency really meant. Thanks to that experience and a bunch of good trainers I worked for/with, I learned.

I am simply putting another point of view out here based on the obedience and other work done in other worlds/sports such as Schutzund, competitive obedience and detection dogs. I think a more balanced approach to rewards/corrections would be useful for our world and also in others. Some trainers rely almost exclusively on rewards to accomplish their task, others rely on compulsion (correction). To rely on one too heavily at the expense of the other, in my mind anyway, is to handicap yourself. 

People here aren't going to change by and large. No way, shape or form for many who have accomplishments far outreaching my own. I could have equal accomplishments and people are still going to do what they believe is right based on their experiences and what they have been taught by mentors and other sources. 

I just thought this was an opportunity for good discussion and it has been.


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## D&S Retrievers

Randy Bohn said:


> The dog apparently had no respect for the owner so I made the dog aware that we actually did exist in the retrieving world:
> 
> 1) DO NOT let your dog push and rush you to get the collar on his/her neck..jump out of the truck and take off running around being a bad citizen...We made the pup sit calmly first and then collar went on him, when he decided to become unruly the process started over again until the pup gave in and sat in a calm attentive way. People always ask how long did that take to accomplish?? Patience...as long as it takes is the answer, why do you think people use harsh methods to accomplish this?? ...why don't majority of pro trainers tackle hard cases like noise?? TIME!!! Control your temper and realize that your in for a battle of wills, had 1 dog come in for line and noise issues and it took him 45 minutes to figure out he wasn't going to get away with not sitting in remote position 4 ft. from me on a leash..


Oh man.....love this thread.....brings back so many memories!!!!


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## Chris Videtto

Randy, 

Thanks for the step by step! Very informative!


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## Randy Bohn

Step 5) Most important thing to watch for is a change in the dogs attitude, is he still fighting you or did you really break him down?
After this puppy calmed down we walked him under control to the truck and put him away for a few minutes, went thru the same process again from the truck to the honor box doing obedience and making sure the dog is now considering the owner a part of the team...if they don't watch or pay attention to you the battle is being lost by you. When the puppy was calm we pretended that the next working dog was going to run, pup on honor mat, working dog on mat and shot the marks. Mentally the pup said that mark isn't for me it's for the other dog, proceeded to send the puppy and guess what??? Noise was gone!! We took him out of his element and put him back into ours. Received him with a nice slow and controlled delivery and shot another mark, he whined a little and we immediately went into obedience mode and put him back to the state of mind of paying attention to the handler.Working dog came back shot another mark and the puppy was quiet so the owner sent the dog. Piece of cake...


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## Randy Bohn

Step 6) If this is all new to you make sure all steps are 100% before moving on!!!
Always use the same chaining of events from now on, your group has to understand that you need your space awhile so your dog may not get marks till you and the dog are aligned. If you have to work on obedience take your dog out to the station with you and while your shooting and throwing make him do a sit and stay, shooting flyers while your dog is at a sit is awesome obedience work. Who do you think would win that battle of wills, you or your dog??
That's pretty much the story of our little crazy 10 month old puppy, that process took about 7 days to complete, the first few steps if it's your first challenging dog can be mentally demanding to say the least. more to come...


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## blinddogmaddie

My fire breather became vocal at 6 months (last April) right about the time the formal obedience started. She was always quiet and steady up to this point on marks. At a marking session, she got some really nice exciting retrieves and was totally quiet & steady. The next she was vocal at the line which continued all summer. Knowing that this is the worst possible nightmare to have, I started researching and trying different methods to eliminate the noise. After working on this all summer (very frustrating), the noise appears to be gone. What appears to have worked for me was (1) Total obedience, in the house, in the yard and in the field. I hold her and myself to a high standard. Sit, here & heel.This includes walking out the door, entering/exiting the vehicle, walking to the holding blind, etc. (2) Lots of single marks, any noise, no retrieve. I also used Lardy's method of 4-5 single marks with noise, and then one more mark with no noise. She would be vocal on the marks with noise, but however it works, she would be quiet on the last mark and I would then send her. By doing this, I was able to create an atmosphere to train in and teach her what I wanted. (3) NO TESTS. As much as I wanted to, knowing she could compete, I didn't. I was working too hard to eliminate this problem. I had also decided to let her mature some.
As she progressed and got better, I decided to take her dove hunting in September with my older dog to see where I was at in the training. If she got vocal, she wouldn't hunt the rest of the fall. Both dogs honored and were steady with no problems. Because of no calling of doves, the shots were not expected by the dogs and she wouldn't have a chance to think about the mark. Also with my numerous misses, the dogs were surrounded by excitement. Every now and then I got lucky and shot a dove and would then send one of the dogs. She whined quietly once, received a "sit" correction, then shut up and has not whined since. Even in training, she has not whined on marks. I decided to duck hunt in October with her, this time calling. Here again, plenty of noise and numerous misses, no noisefrom her. When I did get lucky, she got the retrieve. I have not had any noise since early September. What she has learned is that not every mark is hers and if she is quiet, she will get a retrieve. Now, I do not consider her fixed, as I will be running her in tests next spring. I already plan on pulling her at the line if she gets vocal, time will tell. Hope this helps.


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## Randy Bohn

Bottom line for most noise and line issues are the owners, we all love our dogs but when we work we work when we play we play. Amateur time is crucial but don't put the retrieve before obedience if you have issues with the dog already.
Young dogs with noise issues you must be careful with, there is no dvd or tape that teaches you how to read dogs, I've seen people really hammer down on pups and they don't forget. 
Older dogs that need to be rehabbed are just plain thick headed, usually they have been allowed to become what you really don't want them to be for so long it's a trained response for them.
I wrote down a list of dogs that I've had come in to be rehabbed in the past 6 years and out of the appr. 30 dogs thru here 1/3 of them were Running With The Devil lines, tough tough dogs. If you have one of those dogs high standards are a must, BUT when you get them repaired they're a beautiful sight to watch and to run.
I had one private email sent that said his dog marks better when he doesn't get corrected with a whiffle ball bat on line...probably right but if you got hammered with a bat you couldn't do your job properly either. Are you fixing the problem or putting a band aid on the problem using a whip or bat?? 
Good Luck everyone...it's not that hard just dig in your heels and be more stubborn than your dog...Randy


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## Randy Bohn

Anyone have questions fire away here or pm, will answer real early or later in the day...Randy


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## gdgnyc

FinnLandR said:


> So, in the steps you refer to corrections, yet you say no sticks, etc. Can you clarify what you do for corrections? Is it verbal? Is the removal and going back a step the correction?
> 
> I admit it, I can be thick at times.....
> 
> (What I've been told by others is if there's a creep, heeling stick across the chest. If there's another way of correcting, I'd like to try it.)


How did your dog react with a stick across the chest? Look at the Farmer-Aycock DVD. Farmer gets the hind end of the dog. I did across the chest one time and definitely did not like the results.


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## leemac

Thank you so much Randy for this thread and the distribution of your knowledge. Have you or anyone else out there employed a chain gang close to the line of a training set up for young pups (ten weeks and older) to get the young dogs used to watching marks and knowing that all of the marks they see aren't for them?


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## Randy Bohn

The correction I use is what they've been trained on prior...Collar Condition sit nick...heel nick...here nick..most of the corrections are done prior to getting to the line. Remember very little correction is needed because you can change the dogs mind, the dog doesn't want to get corrected again but if you correct them and it's still not the reaction you wanted wait them out. 
Example:True Story...Candidate was a Running With The Devil male 3 yrs of age, I corrected on a heel because the dog was forging, reaction on his part was 75% effort on coming back to me.(collar by my knee is my standard) I watched his eyes and I saw him glance over quickly to probably see if I was coming with him or exactly why I wasn't by HIS SIDE. From his reaction I knew that he knew he was wrong and he was digging in his heels and he wasn't coming back to me.
WHAT TO DO NEXT IS VITAL TO SUCCESS: DON'T MOVE AN INCH.. I waited for him to come back by my side about 10 minutes, I grabbed my phone and text clients about next days training, about todays training, text my mom said HI, and the whole time what I was doing was waiting for the dog to change his mental state of mind. I said the command once with a correction,heel nick...FINALLY (between texts) I saw his eyes looking up towards me and he finally laid his ears back little by little and he decided to come back to my knee, prior to that he didn't care but I waited him out with no physical contact except 1 tap on the collar. What happens next is the neat part, does the dog forge again?? you bet..do I stop and wait you bet, how long did it take until the dog came back by my side the 2nd time?? About 5 seconds because he knew I wasn't giving in.. I WIN!!! Are they all that mentally tough? Course Not but that's what he needed done. This is why most pros don't take on dogs like this because of time,but it works.


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## gdgnyc

Thanks for your emphasis on being patient.


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## Scott Adams

Amongst other ideas, what I got out of this, that is new to me, is waiting them out for that period of time.
My older dog (now retired ) is one of those fire breathers. I wish I'd had this knowledge back when he was a youngster. 
I'm sure I'll be applying this stuff with my 10 month old.
Thanks for the help Randy.


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## jpford

Randy Bohn said:


> ..FINALLY (between texts) I saw his eyes looking up towards me and he finally laid his ears back little by little and he decided to come back to my knee, prior to that he didn't care but I waited him out with no physical contact except 1 tap on the collar. What happens next is the neat part, does the dog forge again?? you bet..do I stop and wait you bet, how long did it take until the dog came back by my side the 2nd time?? About 5 seconds because he knew I wasn't giving in.. I WIN!!! Are they all that mentally tough? Course Not but that's what he needed done. This is why most pros don't take on dogs like this because of time,but it works.



If only more parents understood and acted on this concept. Mean what you say and enforce it. If its not worth the effort to enforce, don't say it to begin with. With dogs or children, sounds simple, but it's not so easy to remember to uniformly enforce a standard. It's definitely the right thing to do, but follow through is another thing. If you don't believe your dog needs standards, just watch a 3 year old child manipulating his parents in a store, listen to the number of times a parent will repeat the same command with no attention from the child, listen to every escalating threat be ignored while the bad behavior continues. Thanks Randy! I'm committed to uphold the standards but I know I'm not consistent enough....yet...

Pam


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## TBell

DarrinGreene said:


> There's obedience and then there's obedience. The obedience I routinely see applied to retrievers, much like the rest of the training process, tends to be almost completely based in compulsion (corrections) once the dog reaches field maturity. This method definitely reins in the high drive dog and puts him in a frame of mind where compliance is more likely, hence the success of strong (compulsion based) obedience in the trial world. Also, consistency and the patience to "win the battle of wills" that Randy was talking about will definitely create a new set of habits in a dog if they are not there already. Randy and many others here have been very successful with those methods. Randy in particular with the high drive models we all love so much.
> 
> We also hear routinely though about dogs that are good in training and otherwise (who knows what those standards are or how consistent) and then blow up at a trial. I think the main reason for this is drive. The drive that comes on in that environment can be very hard to recreate in training and if someone has been squashing the dog in training, they sometimes lose their minds with all the excitement at a trial/test.
> 
> I think a balanced and consistent approach to obedience would have some legs in terms of helping folks with that problem. Randy, Tammy and many others here have working approaches but they are experienced folks with many many dogs and tests under their belt. I think some of the less experienced folks (myself included) benefit from thinking about teaching dogs to think and perform in a high drive state outside the test environment, where you really can't train.
> 
> The patience and clear cut consistency you hear in Randy's step by step process (correct for movement ONLY, let the dog figure out the rest on his own) is by and large lost on a lot of people. That's why you hear of so many problems with these kinds of issues. Until I spent all day every day with a truck load of dogs to train I had no IDEA what patience and consistency really meant. Thanks to that experience and a bunch of good trainers I worked for/with, I learned.
> 
> I am simply putting another point of view out here based on the obedience and other work done in other worlds/sports such as Schutzund, competitive obedience and detection dogs. I think a more balanced approach to rewards/corrections would be useful for our world and also in others. Some trainers rely almost exclusively on rewards to accomplish their task, others rely on compulsion (correction). To rely on one too heavily at the expense of the other, in my mind anyway, is to handicap yourself.
> 
> People here aren't going to change by and large. No way, shape or form for many who have accomplishments far outreaching my own. I could have equal accomplishments and people are still going to do what they believe is right based on their experiences and what they have been taught by mentors and other sources.
> 
> I just thought this was an opportunity for good discussion and it has been.


Darren,

Your opportunity to train with all of those dogs and pros is invaluable. Thank you for your interest in the retriever game and thank you for trying to get us to look 'outside' of the box.

Unfortunately, in the hunt test/field trial world there is no set training standard and no 'school' you can go to and learn to train your dog. Just try and get someone who has competitive dogs to teach you! Finding someone with knowledge and the grounds to train these very talented dogs is HARD, VERY HARD.

Programs such as Carr/Farmer/Aycock are all very much 'pressure' based programs. Lardy's program is a little less pressure base and Bill Hillmann's puppy video is the best low pressure training method I've seen.

We tried everything with my noisy, fire breathing dog to make him comply with sit. Pinch collars, nicks, sticks, wiffle ball bats, platforms you name it. My training partners called it Rip's 'chamber of horrors'. I finally took him to Bill Hillmann, and he kept Rip a month and came back and showed me something that changed the way I trained my dogs. He said that the dog was a mental wreck on the line, but he was still willing to endure it all to get the retrieve. That's when Bill's puppy video came out, so I spent the next few months retraining Rip.

I was convinced that he really did not understand what 'sit' meant. He always had forward movement when a mark was thrown. So I started from step one of Bill's puppy video. I never let him make a retrieve if he even moved a muscle. I just went and picked it up and threw again. He would move just when the gun went off, so he would sit and listen to gunshot after gunshot with a few retrieves mixed in.

I would watch him every time I threw it, and when I caught him sitting calmly and relaxed with no movement, I would say 'GOOD DOG' and then walk over to him and send him for the retrieve. It was amazing to watch the look on his face, like 'that's what you wanted'. Training after that was fun. He now knew the rules.

*If you have to use many nicks or resort to a stick to make your dog sit or heel, then your dog has not been properly taught to comply with your commands.* Go back and read everything that Randy wrote. When the dog complies with your standards, then proceed. Until then the dog is running the show.

Darren, I went and watched the 'Michael Ellis' videos and was very impressed. What a beautiful world it would be for our young fire breathing dragons to learn without whips and e-collars. His statement in the video that the easiest dogs to train were the high ones. Wow! The idea of turning the high prey drive around and working for you instead of against you would be amazing. I hope you can teach me how to train a competitive retriever one day with those methods!

That is where our problem lies with testing and our dogs getting out of control or 'test wise'. Since we rely so heavily on collars to train our dogs, when the collar is 'off' all weekend at a test or trial the high dogs come unglued. I am finding that the better teacher/trainer that I become, the less I need to use the e-collar.

Good training and good thread. I, like Randy, am willing to help. If you are in my area, come by and train!


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## Sabireley

If you have a food motivated dog, doing OB with the food bowl down is a good way to work with a dog that is in drive. I have found that it translates into the field as well. I have not trained that many dogs, but all of the ones I have had are high and will drive the bus if given the opportunity. Doing drills with the food bowl down requires them to focus on me when they would rather focus on the food. The first few times were very telling and the behavior similar to FT behavior. Now, the OB is part of the feeding chain. I put down the bowl and she looks at me instead of the bowl. I do here, heel, sit, down, until I get good effort, then release to eat. Interestingly, after several months of this, she started getting silly and made a game of the OB. Sillyness is not effort, so I just stop and wait a couple of minutes, then continue. I transferred the same drills as a warmup to field training and before we go to the line at a trial. It just another training opportunity where you can demand high standards in the presence of a major distraction.


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## blinddogmaddie

_leemac.....( Have you or anyone else out there employed a chain gang close to the line of a training set up for young pups (ten weeks and older) to get the young dogs used to watching marks and knowing that all of the marks they see aren't for them?) _

While researching the "noisey firebreather", I found that Charles Jurney uses the chain gang with success while training young dogs. I train with a small group of about 12 dogs, with 4 of them being noisey along with my firebreather. While we tried the chain gang and still use it, I found out that I got better results leaving my dog in her crate in the vehicle. The other dogs are still whining while on the chain gang, mine is quiet in the crate. Hope this helps.


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## Criquetpas

One of the problem areas in field trials anyway most of these "ground pounders or Firebreathers" are great markers. We as amateur trainers like those ribbons. The trial game is very difficult at best and we start them off in the minor stakes (derby) we win or place and put them on the Derby List. We deal with the creeping, noise, not heeling to the line etc the best we can. We make them "test wise" now we want to fix it after all that excitement over a two year period. We watch while they do none of the antics in training, so we have nothing to work on except toenail moves dog gets corrected (slight movement in inches because feet in trial) We bust dog on the butt with the stick, we bring dog to the line, any noise dog gets put up, we stake dog out while other dogs work, we shoot many flyers, we use popper guns, we train in large groups to duplicate trial/test conditons and the list goes on and on. We go to the trial on the weekend and maybe get a few series in without problems, then the roof caves in by Sunday (especially in the all-age) but we are winning the trial. We take our ribbon and we think it's really great until the following weekend, then it starts all over again. More pressure is applied, dog starts sticking on birds(push in one area something else comes out) dog now runs out of the holding blind to the line leaving you standing trying to heel, heel, here here , your dog. You finaly get the the line and maybe the dog smacks the marks or the hampsters run around in the cage and the dog doesn't see anything but the flyer.

The above can be applied to the Hunt Test game too. I have been there and done that many times with some truley great dogs including one National Open Finalist. I just wonder how many of those 2nd places or JAMS were really wins but, due to line manners, noise, etc. well you will never no. I just don't seem to learn, but now I am a old man and have a young talented Derby dog who has run one derby and was pulled in the third series because I didn't like her demeanor! I may never run her in another Derby and just train for the all-age until she is ready to run. Maybe I have learned my lesson after all these years and maybe not I sure love those ribbons!

Randy has the best advice and obviously is very sucessful , start young keep the standard up and get to know what you have or get a experienced amateur or professional to evaluate. There is a difference between a puppy whine with excitement or whinning as they go for the bird vrs a very potential serious noise problem . That Derby, Junior, Started don't mean nothing if the risk is great down the road.
One man's opinion.


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## RookieTrainer

Randy, thanks for your advice on this. I am going to incorporate your ideas into my routine for sure. 

As an overarching principle, would it be correct to say that you put the responsibility for compliance on the dog? For example, it seems you would give a command once, possibly with a light or moderate correction, and then wait the dog out until he complies. Is this the basic sequence added to a boatload of patience and waiting over several days?

Additionally, do you use a marker ("good dog") to indicate your desired behavior to the dog? Or do you send immediately upon compliance? If so, how do you begin to extend the time for compliance?


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## 2tall

Criquetpas said:


> One of the problem areas in field trials anyway most of these "ground pounders or Firebreathers" are great markers. We as amateur trainers like those ribbons. The trial game is very difficult at best and we start them off in the minor stakes (derby) we win or place and put them on the Derby List. We deal with the creeping, noise, not heeling to the line etc the best we can. We make them "test wise" now we want to fix it after all that excitement over a two year period. We watch while they do none of the antics in training, so we have nothing to work on except toenail moves dog gets corrected (slight movement in inches because feet in trial) We bust dog on the butt with the stick, we bring dog to the line, any noise dog gets put up, we stake dog out while other dogs work, we shoot many flyers, we use popper guns, we train in large groups to duplicate trial/test conditons and the list goes on and on. We go to the trial on the weekend and maybe get a few series in without problems, then the roof caves in by Sunday (especially in the all-age) but we are winning the trial. We take our ribbon and we think it's really great until the following weekend, then it starts all over again. More pressure is applied, dog starts sticking on birds(push in one area something else comes out) dog now runs out of the holding blind to the line leaving you standing trying to heel, heel, here here , your dog. You finaly get the the line and maybe the dog smacks the marks or the hampsters run around in the cage and the dog doesn't see anything but the flyer.
> 
> The above can be applied to the Hunt Test game too. I have been there and done that many times with some truley great dogs including one National Open Finalist. I just wonder how many of those 2nd places or JAMS were really wins but, due to line manners, noise, etc. well you will never no. I just don't seem to learn, but now I am a old man and have a young talented Derby dog who has run one derby and was pulled in the third series because I didn't like her demeanor! I may never run her in another Derby and just train for the all-age until she is ready to run. Maybe I have learned my lesson after all these years and maybe not I sure love those ribbons!
> 
> Randy has the best advice and obviously is very sucessful , start young keep the standard up and get to know what you have or get a experienced amateur or professional to evaluate. There is a difference between a puppy whine with excitement or whinning as they go for the bird vrs a very potential serious noise problem . That Derby, Junior, Started don't mean nothing if the risk is great down the road.
> One man's opinion.


Wow! What a "spot on" post! I do believe Earl watched me and Indy from day one! No we didn't do the derbies, dog was almost two before training started, but by golly we chased that JH title and every other thing we could do. Its the trainer that has to get control over their own desires and emotions before you can expect the same control in the dog. I finally tried the method described by Randy when I was training with Sharon Potter. It definitely works. But Indy is too far gone and too trial wise so that as soon as we head for the line, he's driving the train again. I have trained my young dog using Hillman's method, and never needed stick, nick or tricks. He is really well mannered at the line, but alas, no where near the marker or as much drive as the others. Sadly I have found there is no such thing as a "do over" because no two dogs are going to have the same skills or problems. Hey, anybody tried cloning to get a second chance????


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## RetrieverNation

I put Randy's original post and his subsequent replies into a word document for my training binder. PM me if you would like a copy. Thanks for the lesson Randy!


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## dpate

TBell said:


> Darren, I went and watched the 'Michael Ellis' videos and was very impressed. What a beautiful world it would be for our young fire breathing dragons to learn without whips and e-collars. His statement in the video that the easiest dogs to train were the high ones. Wow! The idea of turning the high prey drive around and working for you instead of against you would be amazing. I hope you can teach me how to train a competitive retriever one day with those methods!


I think Michael Ellis is the best dog trainer out there making his stuff public. I have a very high dog and used his principles to train my dog as a pup during obedience. I think his style of training is very applicable to retrievers but I am not experienced enough to implement it other than around the line. I know it would likely never happen but I would love for a guy like Ellis to get together with a top retriever pro for a few years and see what they came up with. 

His two videos that I have are definitely worth checking out (The Power of Training Dogs with Food and Advanced Concepts in Motivation). Oh, and Ellis is an advocate of the ecollar and does use it in his training. He has a story in his free videos about his training evolution from early collar use, subsequent postive only training, and why he returned to using some aversives. 

Here's his link if anyone is interested http://michaelellisschool.com/videos.htm


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## DarrinGreene

TBell said:


> Wow! The idea of turning the high prey drive around and working for you instead of against you would be amazing. I hope you can teach me how to train a competitive retriever one day with those methods!
> 
> That is where our problem lies with testing and our dogs getting out of control or 'test wise'. Since we rely so heavily on collars to train our dogs, when the collar is 'off' all weekend at a test or trial the high dogs come unglued. I am finding that the better teacher/trainer that I become, the less I need to use the e-collar.
> 
> Good training and good thread. I, like Randy, am willing to help. If you are in my area, come by and train!


I almost missed this Tammy. Just a couple of brief comments in reply to it.

I really think that the principals you see in Ellis's video's are applicable to our dogs when they are young. Imagine having your retriever as well trained as Lindsay's Mal in that video before you get too far into the retriever aspect. That dog is working for HER, doing what she wants to earn his prizes. He'd very high in drive during that video, yet extremely focused on her the whole time. Imagine transferring that team play over into the field. 

I'll never be the guy to show you or anyone else how to train a competitive retriever that way. I am training one right now using a lot of that stuff as a basis, but then moving into a more Carr based system from there. It will be a long time before Darrin Greene's retriever training is ever the newest rage. Hell will likely freeze over first, in fact.

In the meantime, I like discussing ideas in a positive way with people, and those methods certainly leave people with a lot of ideas. 

Like I said, the experienced among us won't change, and I don't blame them. I don't fix what works either. 

I do think there's value for a lot of RTF readers though, because I think for the guy whose done a dog or two, creating a basis that avoids some of the issues this thread addresses is probably a good thing. 

As I said to Randy earlier, I KNOW he's equipped to deal with the pup and it makes sense for HIM or someone like him to let pup develop to a point where the approach doesn't cause problems. I think, as he said though, that some less experienced folk might crush a pup trying to fix a problem, so if thinking a bit differently would help them to avoid it, then awesome.

When I title my first dog I'll call ya! Until then, it's just a view point to think about.


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## DarrinGreene

dpate said:


> I think Michael Ellis is the best dog trainer out there making his stuff public. I have a very high dog and used his principles to train my dog as a pup during obedience. I think his style of training is very applicable to retrievers but I am not experienced enough to implement it other than around the line. I know it would likely never happen but I would love for a guy like Ellis to get together with a top retriever pro for a few years and see what they came up with.
> 
> His two videos that I have are definitely worth checking out (The Power of Training Dogs with Food and Advanced Concepts in Motivation). Oh, and Ellis is an advocate of the ecollar and does use it in his training. He has a story in his free videos about his training evolution from early collar use, subsequent postive only training, and why he returned to using some aversives.
> 
> Here's his link if anyone is interested http://michaelellisschool.com/videos.htm


look up Bernard Flink and some of the other Schutzund and French Ring guys too. There are a lot of different ways to skin the same cat.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

RetrieverNation said:


> I put Randy's original post and his subsequent replies into a word document for my training binder. PM me if you would like a copy. Thanks for the lesson Randy!


I did the same thing only my folder is on the computer. 
Randy that was excellent! Thanks. Will be talking with you!!


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## Randy Bohn

I should clarify also that the puppy fix program is alot different than the older dog program, we call it the 12 step program here and each step must be done 100% before moving on to the next step. Pam made a good observation with children in stores..stop this stop that blah blah blah, same with our dogs we train, which here or sit do you mean?? 
In the past few years we've rehabbed a bunch of dogs back into the competition world BUT there were a few that only could go so far because of their past. I remember one we fixed up (Running With The Devil Female ) she was like a volcano, she was high maintenance and I don't mean maybe and the owner decided to retire her. Another was just sold, she was trial smart with tons of go but trained well. Most dogs run competitive Qual. work and if they have the talent move on to the AA level.The dogs who didn't get to where the owners wanted to be had a real bad beginning childhood...sit sit sit sit here here here...or they had JR.hunt titles by 8 months of age before the good solid foundation was in place.


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## gdgnyc

Randy Bohn said:


> I should clarify also that the puppy fix program is alot different than the older dog program, we call it the 12 step program here and each step must be done 100% before moving on to the next step. Pam made a good observation with children in stores..stop this stop that blah blah blah, same with our dogs we train, which here or sit do you mean??
> In the past few years we've rehabbed a bunch of dogs back into the competition world BUT there were a few that only could go so far because of their past. I remember one we fixed up (Running With The Devil Female ) she was like a volcano, she was high maintenance and I don't mean maybe and the owner decided to retire her. Another was just sold, she was trial smart with tons of go but trained well. Most dogs run competitive Qual. work and if they have the talent move on to the AA level.The dogs who didn't get to where the owners wanted to be had a real bad beginning childhood...sit sit sit sit here here here...or they had JR.hunt titles by 8 months of age before the good solid foundation was in place.


I think you're saying an awful lot about where people go wrong in building their foundation with their dogs.


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## greg.houser

I would like a copy of what you have. Couldn't PM you for some reason.


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## Judy Chute

........"Running With The Devil lines, tough tough dogs. If you have one of those dogs high standards are a must, BUT when you get them repaired they're a beautiful sight to watch and to run..."

I'll say....phenomenal animals..takes an especially patient, calm, high standard maintaining handler/trainer so they run...and keep running and delivering. 

Great thread...

Judy

Edit...Earl Dillow always has something of substance to post. Always reap some good stuff from a good read.


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## JAM

Randy Bohn said:


> I should clarify also that the puppy fix program is alot different than the older dog program, we call it the 12 step program here and each step must be done 100% before moving on to the next step.QUOTE]
> 
> Randy, Would you mind posting your methods for dealing with an older dog with noise issues?
> 
> I have a 4 yr. old springer that explodes if he sees another dog making a retrieve. I've had a little success by putting both of my dogs at heel and only throwing the bumper if the noisy boy's quiet. As long as he can go first, he's quiet for just that one toss. If the other dog goes for the next toss, the noise is back.
> 
> I'm an amateur and this is the second dog I've ever trained. The first one was never noisy. To correct him I tried everything from grabbing his muzzle, bark collar, spraying him in the face with water, putting him back in the truck, etc. None of those things worked. I'm so glad to have your posts on this to help me. Even if I never get this dog's noise under control, I have the proper way to nip it in the bud so it doesn't get to this point on any pups down the road.
> 
> Thank you so much!


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## Randy Bohn

JAM, sorry but if i wrote the 12 step process down here it would take pages and pages, hours and hours..really it would. 12 steps of getting a dog that's older to be quiet is harder because don't look at the dog as a 4 yr. old dog look at his age as an adult somewhere around the age of 28 years of age? Is a 7 yr. old child easier to change behavior on or a 28 yr. old adult?? older they get the harder it is...but it can be done...Randy


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## JAM

Randy Bohn said:


> JAM, sorry but if i wrote the 12 step process down here it would take pages and pages, hours and hours..really it would. 12 steps of getting a dog that's older to be quiet is harder because don't look at the dog as a 4 yr. old dog look at his age as an adult somewhere around the age of 28 years of age? Is a 7 yr. old child easier to change behavior on or a 28 yr. old adult?? older they get the harder it is...but it can be done...Randy


Sure. I understand. 

Do you think if I use the puppy steps you've posted I could turn him around?

Thanks again!


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## Randy Bohn

JAM, give it a shot, competing dogs aside of each other is always a challenge...


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## Kyle Garris

Now THIS would be a seminar worth attending. Nothing but line manners/noise issues. How to keep them from getting started and how to fix them if they have....


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## JimB

This has been a great post with lots of valuable information and things to think about. Randy, thanks for sharing your wisdom!


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## Purpledawg

JimB said:


> This has been a great post with lots of valuable information and things to think about. Randy, thanks for sharing your wisdom!


Randy I have such a dog and have held him to the high standards since day one. It really wasn't what I bargained for when I picked up this pedigree. Figure he will make a better trainer out of me. I keep your notes in my daily training log and reach for them when I begin to lose it. Thank you so very much for the inspiration to keep at it.


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## saabisil

I had a golden that could bark with the best of them.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

I brought forward this thread. I read Randy's info which is excellent. Thanks Randy! My pup did his first flyer today at 8 months. After he left the line, he couldn't contain himself and let out a yippie yip! So I turned to this thread and read it over again. Great information here folks. IMHO


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## Garrick Bridges

Hi Wetdog,
I would be really grateful if you would describe how Mike cured the creeping as I am dealing with that issue myself.
Thanks,
Garrick


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## dbonham

Started reading this thread last night and thought it should be refreshed to main page. Lots of insight here


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## CashCat

I'm having the same issue. So glad you posted this! I will be trying!


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