# To Force Fetch Or Not To Force Fetch



## timfran87 (Jun 30, 2012)

I do not want to start an argument between any of the more experienced trainers here but I have to ask...
I have a 9 month old yellow lab that is doing great. I have never trained a hunting dog before but this dog has picked up everything I have tried to teach it very quickly. Right now at our location (i.e. without many distractions) she obeys; heal, sit, come, "Go" my retrieve command, give, and are working on direction control for blind retrieves. She does not have a stay command because I am training her to hold a command until I release her or give her another command. My big question is about force fetching though. Right now my dog will not drop a dummy, bumper, stick or rock that I throw until I tell her to except for one occasion where she threw up with a dummy in her mouth and she did drop that one. I have had my hunting and training buddies tell me she doesn't need force fetched and others say she HAS to be. Could you more experienced trainers give me your thoughts and reasoning behind it for my situation? Also, I do not plan on competing with this dog. She is being trained to be a hunting dog and life long friend.

Thanks,
Tim

P.S. I am also new to the forum and this is my first post. So let me know your experiences with this forum also.


----------



## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

You can train a dog to be a great hunting dog without FF, I have five in my kennel that have never been. It will be up to you to make that call. If you have any doubts you have the option to FF. Good luck with your training


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I have to FF a dog. It is an integral part of the training program I follow which is a force based program.

You don't have to FF your dog if you don't want to. You also don't have to follow a training program, you can just teach new skills to the dog in a random fashion. I've found that when I tried to just teach the dog this skill and that skill in hopes of ending up with a finished retriever, I was not successful. And this was after a pro had done formal obedience, force fetch, collar conditioning and had started the pup handling. 

For me, following a comprehensive training program with a well established sequence of training through basics and transition (transition is where I fell off the wagon and started the this and that training method with my 1st lab), has made all the difference in the world. And as I said, FF is the basis for the program.

Aside from the way I do it, you will find that the vast majority of top field trial and hunt test trainers, and I would guess trainers of hunting companions as well, FF their dogs.

But, you can certainly do it a different way if you want to.


----------



## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

GO and NO would be too close for comfort for me. I know you were asking about FF but that stood out. 

as far as NEEDING to or NOT. I'm new to this the last several years and just a few dogs under my belt. But I couldn't imagine not having the tool for training.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm not an "experienced trainer" but have a 2.7 year old male who was taught to "fetch", "hold", sit and hold, and "give" using bumpers, birds, balls, shoes etc. from land and water, all without force. 

He is extremely reliable and hasn't dropped a bird or bumper upon delivery since he was first taught the commands at 8 months.

He has a Junior Hunter title and two pheasant hunting seasons under his belt. He may be an exception to the rule, but your dog may be an exception too. You can still do the force fetching drills, just without the force. It has worked well for my dog - but he is not a Field Trial hopeful, just a hunting dog and good ole pal!

A lot of folks on this forum are training their dogs for competition. Some others on the forum just train for hunting or a combination of both. 

Good Luck,
jennifer

P.S. I agree with post above about "Go" sounding a lot like "NO". You could consider adding another syllable, I hate to admit it cause it sounds hokey, but my send word for my hunting dog is "Go Get". I got some eye rolls from the hunt test judges.


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Rocks and sticks?


----------



## Pigpen (Nov 23, 2008)

To me, there is much more to FF than the dog picking up an object. As Glen said, it is the basis for most training programs. It teaches the dog about pressure and ultimately gives the dog a "job."


----------



## timfran87 (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks to everyone so far. I appreciate your inputs. As far as the "Go" sounding like "No", I do not use "No" as my term for an incorrect behavior. This is going to sound weird, but i use an "AH" sound that comes from my throat.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

timfran87 said:


> Thanks to everyone so far. I appreciate your inputs. As far as the "Go" sounding like "No", I do not use "No" as my term for an incorrect behavior. This is going to sound weird, but i use an "AH" sound that comes from my throat.


Tim, you're a rebel. Where did you learn all those sounds and commands? 

Obviously you can get a dog to retrieve by saying "boo", or any other word if you wanted to. Just not sure why you wouldn't use more conventional terms.


----------



## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

a pro i train with said a guy that showed up for training day would do this....when his dog would get close to the bird he would make a loud siren sound and move his finger around in a circle over his head. true story.


----------



## timfran87 (Jun 30, 2012)

I exaggerated with rocks, she only did that once haha. The basis of my training with Maggie (my pup) is from the 1st fowl dogs video. I changed it up a little because I didnt have some of the resources available that trainers do, hence starting off with sticks. She graduated to bumpers and dummies when I put her in my new supervisors kennels who has everything a trainer would need. I use different terminology so if I am out with another guy and she hears a command she would not get confused. Did I make a mistake in doing this?


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

timfran87 said:


> I exaggerated with rocks, she only did that once haha. The basis of my training with Maggie (my pup) is from the 1st fowl dogs video. I changed it up a little because I didnt have some of the resources available that trainers do, hence starting off with sticks. She graduated to bumpers and dummies when I put her in my new supervisors kennels who has everything a trainer would need. I use different terminology so if I am out with another guy and she hears a command she would not get confused. Did I make a mistake in doing this?



The only mistake is the mistake a dog didn't understand....Make the dog understand....


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

timfran87 said:


> .... I use different terminology so if I am out with another guy and she hears a command she would not get confused. Did I make a mistake in doing this?


It's unnecessary. Generally send dog for retrieves on name, so unless all of your hunting buddies have dogs named Maggie...


----------



## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

To force fetch or not to force fetch, there isn't even a question.


----------



## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

As a general rule you shouldn't throw sticks for dogs to retrieve. If my grandson or wife does this while playing with a dog I don't get upset with them, just tell them not to do it.

You don't want your dog to be hunting hard for a bird, can't find it but comes across a stick and brings it back.

So I don't do sticks.


----------



## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

The Fowl Dawgs DVD"s are a great program to follow. Rick has been training dog professionally for 25 years. He is very good at what he does. You are training your FIRST dog and you decided to "change it up a little" You did a very smart thing by getting and following the program, right up to the point where you decided not to follow the program. Get the rest of the DVD"s and FOLLOW THEM. You wont be sorry. BTW Rick FF every dog, even the gun dogs.

Welcome to thr RTF and good luck with your pup.


----------



## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

I have hunted and had both types of dogs. FF VS. Non FF. No comparison and every dog that I had or have will be FF without a question or doubt in my mind.


----------



## omathews (Oct 10, 2008)

Yes FF Is a very important step to understanding presure


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I've trained dogs both ways. I doubt I will go back to a non-force-broken dog. But at the time, I was quite happy with the dog I trained, non-FF.

I'd suggest you seek out local clubs, people, pros, whatever. See for yourself what you like and what you want to emulate, and move in that direction.

I trained a couple dogs without the e-collar but still FF'd them. I was happy with them too.

I now have a FF'd dog, trained as close as I could follow, to Lardy's program. I'm happiest with him.

Chris


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BlaineT said:


> GO and NO would be too close for comfort for me. I know you were asking about FF but that stood out.
> 
> as far as NEEDING to or NOT. I'm new to this the last several years and just a few dogs under my belt. But I couldn't imagine not having the tool for training.


Most folks have a "release command" that is used to release their dogs to go do whatever they want. For example, if you have all of your dogs sitting and you want to cut them loose to go play, you have some command. I've seen many folks use "OK" for this command, and I always avoided that due to its frequent use in casual conversation.

I personally use "no" as a cue for dogs. I also use "go" for a release command. I've done this for many years with many dogs. I've never had a problem. I believe this has to do with inflection, body language and context. 

For my dogs, a "no" and a "go" are totally different. 

I actually think this underscores a piece of why some trainers prefer clickers for certain training cues. The "click" takes the inflection and voice out of it. It theoretically gives a totally consistent message every time.

I would suggest that if you're going to run organized hunt tests or dog games, you may want to consider using fairly standard terms. I like to stand out for what's happening out in the field, with good performance. I don't like to stand out because of "odd" commands.

There's no one "right" way though.

Good luck!

Chris


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

timfran87 said:


> I do not want to start an argument between any of the more experienced trainers here but I have to ask...
> I have a 9 month old yellow lab that is doing great. I have never trained a hunting dog before but this dog has picked up everything I have tried to teach it very quickly. Right now at our location (i.e. without many distractions) she obeys; heal, sit, come, "Go" my retrieve command, give, *and are working on direction control for blind retrieves*.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tim


 If you want a really good dog for blinds force fetch is most likely a prerequisite. Also for the safety of the dog Force fetch/ collar conditioning is a great tool.


----------



## RetrieverLuvr (Jun 28, 2010)

> Obviously you can get a dog to retrieve by saying "boo", or any other word if you wanted to. Just not sure why you wouldn't use more conventional terms.


Who cares what commands you give your dog! As long as its consistent the dog will understand.....

I use "GO" instead of back and "OUT" instead of over and "Get it" instead of Fetch. Have run into a few problems with No and Go being misunderstood at a distance. But not normally. I run hunt tests and I could not care less what anyone thinks of my commands.....Say what you want as long as you are consistent. 



I wasnt sure about FF at first.....but after my dogs were totally trained to retrieve on command through teaching I force fetched them. Never regretted it.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

RetrieverLuvr said:


> Who cares what commands you give your dog! As long as its consistent the dog will understand.....
> 
> I use "GO" instead of back and "OUT" instead of over and "Get it" instead of Fetch. Have run into a few problems with No and Go being misunderstood at a distance. But not normally. I run hunt tests and I could not care less what anyone thinks of my commands.....Say what you want as long as you are consistent.
> 
> ...


What made you want to make up new commands when there are already well established and widely used commands for what you want to do. 

Do you make up new words for other coomon things, or are you more traditional with terminology outside of dog training? Like telling the kids to take out the tradrtoful. This would certainly work if you showed them first and then were consistent.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

captainjack said:


> What made you want to make up new commands when there are already well established and widely used commands for what you want to do.
> 
> Do you make up new words for other coomon things, or are you more traditional with terminology outside of dog training? Like telling the kids to take out the tradrtoful. This would certainly work if you showed them first and then were consistent.


It's not a matter of making up new commands. It's a matter of not being privy to the what field competitors use and it's a matter of common sense and instinct. At least for me, that's what it was. When you are teaching on instinct it doesn't make sense to send your dog on its name. You use the dog's name to get its attention. If it's eating something it's not supposed to, you say "Hey Buck! WTH?" Or, if you want the dog to look at you or to come or just pay attention because a car is coming, you say the dog's name to get its attention. So for common sense folks who are new to the "game", it really doesn't make sense to use the dog's name to send. To us, saying the dog's name will make the dog look at us in the eye to see what it is we want. It makes more sense to say "go get it" because that's what we say when teaching the dog to go chase something. When it's a puppy, we throw something and we tell the pup "go get it" This later gets abbreviated to "Go get" or just "Go".

Not everyone grows up with the game and not everyone has always known about the game. A lot of us turn 40 and say, "God I love my retriever and I want a new hobby that will fulfill both of us. Let's try to learn this game and work our way into it even though we don't have a club nearby or have a mentor or friends who are also involved." We are the people that just happen onto RTF and read books on our own and scrape to make connections who already know what they're doing, in order to learn. For those of us just happy to hunt with our dogs and dabble in the game, we use common sense terms because they work and make sense. 

I think any hobby or profession has an elite set or a group who has been doing it so long, it's hard to be patient or helpful to newbies. I understand that. But it would be nice if those of you who are impatient and unwilling to help, would just avoid us, instead of going out of your way to type a message that is rude and downgrading. We are here to learn, much like you were when you first started. I'm not saying you should feel obligated to help, I'm just saying, don't be counter productive. 

Jennifer


----------



## russell.jason2 (Mar 13, 2011)

Traditions, that is the way everyone does it, proven methods, etc...There are some folks on here I truly love hearing from, then there are other who are the rudest people and I am in the military, so I know what rude is. Anyway, I have trained 2 retrievers, so yes not much experience. The first I trained I watched and used "water dog" and she was not FF. She was an awesome hunter, she new the command fetch and Never in all the years we hunted together did she ever fail to retrieve, never had any mouthing issues. I know I made mistakes with her but we learned. She could do blinds with the best of them. Now I have a 2 yr old, as a puppy, i followed exclusivley Hillman and then on to Lardy, plus the person I bought her from is very successful in the FT game and helps me alot. She is also very nice, hopefully she will be my first field trial dog. I have read many reason/opinions on why to FF, I can tell you the difference I see is my 2 yr old is more business like and to me that is what FF does, makes it a job and more business like. Like I said, I am new but a student of the game so take it for what it's worth. Thanks to all the folks on here that give constructive critism without being an A&^.


----------



## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

Jhenion said:


> It's not a matter of making up new commands. It's a matter of not being privy to the what field competitors use and it's a matter of common sense and instinct. At least for me, that's what it was. When you are teaching on instinct it doesn't make sense to send your dog on its name. You use the dog's name to get its attention. If it's eating something it's not supposed to, you say "Hey Buck! WTH?" Or, if you want the dog to look at you or to come or just pay attention because a car is coming, you say the dog's name to get its attention. So for common sense folks who are new to the "game", it really doesn't make sense to use the dog's name to send. To us, saying the dog's name will make the dog look at us in the eye to see what it is we want. It makes more sense to say "go get it" because that's what we say when teaching the dog to go chase something. When it's a puppy, we throw something and we tell the pup "go get it" This later gets abbreviated to "Go get" or just "Go".
> 
> Not everyone grows up with the game and not everyone has always known about the game. A lot of us turn 40 and say, "God I love my retriever and I want a new hobby that will fulfill both of us. Let's try to learn this game and work our way into it even though we don't have a club nearby or have a mentor or friends who are also involved." We are the people that just happen onto RTF and read books on our own and scrape to make connections who already know what they're doing, in order to learn. For those of us just happy to hunt with our dogs and dabble in the game, we use common sense terms because they work and make sense.
> 
> ...


I can relate to much of what you said even though I now use and understand some of the lingo.


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

MANY years ago, back in the olden days, I read in the first training book I owned that the appropriate command/cue for releasing your dog to go air was "hie on". :shock: WTF! I'm glad I broke from tradition on that one ... "go on, go potty" sounds much cooler.

Another traditional term was "charge". Any of the (younger) traditionalists define that one???

Most of the recommended terms used today _are_ well thought out, though. Sending your dog on his name for example, makes things a lot simpler when you have more than one dog around.

Using a standard terminology is also important if there is a chance someone else may one day be training/running your dog. It's a real pain trying to work with someone else's dog that has been taught some unorthodox language. And don't just assume that will NEVER happen. Things can change.

JS

PS: Back on the FF topic, I would recommend that if you plan on competing around the midwest area, DON"T bother force-fetching your dog. ABSOLUTELY NOT NECESSARY! I wish everyone competing around here would stop that practice. ;-)

Otherwise, you might find some benefit in it.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

"Charge" means down...what else could it mean

john


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> I have a 9 month old yellow lab that is doing great. I have never trained a hunting dog before but this dog has picked up everything I have tried to teach it very quickly. Right now at our location (i.e. without many distractions) she obeys; heal, sit, come, "Go" my retrieve command, give, and are working on direction control for blind retrieves. She does not have a stay command because I am training her to hold a command until I release her or give her another command.


I would not "change up" the commands you have taught up until now. Evidently, the pup and you are communicating....why change? 

Several years ago, I formed a friendship with a new member in HRC. He had a German Wirehair highly titled in their venue. He wanted to train for an HRCH. His release command was "Get Out!" The dog knew what "nine" meant. The dog was not FF. He earned his HRCH title in rapid fashion. 

I gave him "lectures" on how to teach running straight lines and handling because he was initially having trouble in our group training sessions. After not seeing him for a few weeks, we met up to train. His dog ran outstanding, straight lines on the blinds we setup. They were not easy. His commands were "Get out!" followed by an infrequent "Right!" or "Left!". He never blew the whistle and the dog never stopped or glanced back. 

I was too stunned to react and had to call him on the phone later to sort this all out. His reply was the two of them did a lot of roller blading and his dog always ran in front. When they met some coming from the other way, he taught the dog to swerve left or right. OK?! and all I could manage was a quiet "that's cool". 

It's all about communication. I have two dogs that know exactly what the command "Blue!" means. Don't ask.

Now if you extend my last comment to situations involving teaching someone to train their dog, I always thought it was more productive to use the same language.....like those used in the program of choice. Therefore, when asking for help your common language is more effective. Someone seeking advice from RTF is going to hear the FF side of discussions....often. However, there are exceptions. 

I starting force fetching my pups because the people I was going to be dealing with did. I needed to pick their minds to learn how to train. How was this going to work if I didn't follow their "programs"? They had excellent dogs. The "why not" question was a no brainer. Did others not FF and were they successful? Of course, but I was fairly sure they were in the minority and not nearly as accessable. I don't think I've ever read a single thread where a trainer said, "You know FF is a mistake. I've tried it on several pups and I don't think I'll do that anymore." However, I have read posters that truly believe their dogs did just fine without it. 

The other issue I came to grips with early on was to avoid trying to do something in a different way....being creative is difficult when you really don't know what you are doing. Shortcuts are more likely to be useful only if you know where you want to end up. The best advice I received was just do your best to follow a specific program. When experience is gained it will be simpler to start maybe tweaking things a bit more on your next pup. 

In my opinion, there is no wrong or right in whether to FF. Then again, if you were to ask me whether to FF or not, I'd say if you have kind of a contrary streak in your mental makeup, it might be satisfying to show your friends......Hey! this works, too. 

I have this "edge" that nudges me every once in awhile when someone says, "You can't do that."


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

john fallon said:


> "Charge" means down...what else could it mean
> 
> john


John, did you not see where I stipulated "younger" traditionalists??? :razz:

JS


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I did... but 69 is the new 40

john


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

JS said:


> MANY years ago, back in the olden days, I read in the first training book I owned that the appropriate command/cue for releasing your dog to go air was "hie on". :shock: WTF! I'm glad I broke from tradition on that one ... "go on, go potty" sounds much cooler.
> 
> Another traditional term was "charge". Any of the (younger) traditionalists define that one???
> 
> ...



The command HI-ON is a release command to go hunt...At least in the beagle and fox hunter worlds.....Steve s


----------

