# Credentials- Experience?



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

You can tell that it is winter here and RTF is suffering from stir craziness - come on Spring....

As of late I have noticed that the question comes up "What are your credentials?" or the comment "You lack experience." etc, etc....

So I wonder for those who always feel compelled to ask this what consitutes enough experience that a person can post advice on RTF? What credentials are sufficient?

FOM


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

For me; 

You dog is as dumb or dumber than mine.....and you still try to train it.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't post a lot of advice, I do a lot of asking. I have no credentials.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

fact is, no matter what anyone says...

every post may have a nugget of gold in it, regardless of who made it


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote:

As of late I have noticed that the question comes up "What are your credentials?" or the comment "You lack experience." etc, etc....

Nobody has EVER asked the Gooser that Question!!!
MEBE there's a reason,, I dont know!!---Just a hunch!

Quote Agin!

So I wonder for those who always feel compelled to ask this what consitutes enough experience that a person can post advice on RTF? What credentials are sufficient?

OH Man!!! Now I'm in trouble!!! I thowed my Sherrif's Star away when I was six!

Gooser


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

I think we need a sticky thread on here where everyone can list their credentials. It would be nice to be able to quickly research who has been there and done that from the others.


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

FOM said:


> ................ What credentials are sufficient? ............
> 
> FOM


I stayed at a Holiday in last night. .... so drag up a chair and I'll tell ya all ya need to know! Nuf said!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> I think we need a sticky thread on here where everyone can list their credentials. It would be nice to be able to quickly research who has been there and done that from the others.


So I guess until you have 20 years experience, nothing you learn carries any validity Bob?
or is it 30, or 40?


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## Arturo (Jan 10, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> So I guess until you have 20 years experience, nothing you learn carries any validity Bob?
> or is it 30, or 40?


You must be doin' a lot of readin' tween the lines cause his post didn't resemble your remark.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

I'll post advice only when the question is about something I've had to learn the hard way, and want to help the poster prevent making the same stoopid mistake(s) I did. Unfortunately, some people are destined to repeat history regardless of well-intended warnings.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." _Albert Einstein_ 

ml


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Arturo said:


> You must be doin' a lot of readin' tween the lines cause his post didn't resemble your remark.


Having been told "go home newbie" (NOT by Bob mind you)...

On a thread where BTW it wasn't even training advice...

By one of the most respected posters here (Mr. Shih)...

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that being able to tell the "been there done that" from "the rest" is some effort to discount what those of us with somewhat less dog training experience may have to offer on a particular topic.

Sometimes it's not exactly what someone says but the thought it provokes that is of value to the "question asker"...

Since so much of dog training revolves around the fact that there are about a million ways to skin a cat, I think all opinions are valuable to some degree. I also believe that "question askers" would be much better off, in most cases, having someone actually work with them in person than to post a question on a message board, unless, of course it's a simple matter of opinion, which oh BTW, this topic certainly is.

People need to get off the high and mighty "been there done that" horse an realize that this amounts to a social netoworking forum and is hardly the place for ANYONE to come for training advice, big or small. If they are so knowledgable about dog training then surely, they realize that.

I hope that doesn't offend Chris or go against the RTF mission statement but if there's one thing I HAVE learned in a few years of playing with dogs, it's that you can't trian one over the internet, or the phone, for that matter.

"Why should I believe you" is a common theme I have seen across about 20 message boards over the last 8 or so years, so whether I know a thing about dog training or not, I do know a thing or two about message boards.

The social value of a place like this is ASTOUNDING but the practical, real life value is tenuous at best, IMHO of course.

That in mind, who cares what anyone's credentials are.

Respectfully, DG


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Who is to say that there aren't relative newbies here who are training with some very experienced amateurs... If their dog has gone through something similar to the person asking the question, then they might offer sound advice even though they are somewhat new to the sport themselves.
Everyone from Newbs to Pros can add to the discussions on RTF.


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## Bryan McCulloch (Nov 3, 2007)

I have No credentials,I had to go to freecredit..report..dotcom after clicking on a bad jello porn link.


Bryan.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

BryanMc said:


> I have No credentials,I had to go to freecredit..report..dotcom after clicking on a bad jello porn link.
> 
> 
> Bryan.


HAHAHAHAHA!!!


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> Who is to say that there aren't relative newbies here who are training with some very experienced amateurs... If their dog has gone through something similar to the person asking the question, then they might offer sound advice even though they are somewhat new to the sport themselves.
> Everyone from Newbs to Pros can add to the discussions on RTF.


I might fall into this category. I work with a trainer almost every weekend. I have learned a lot, not enough to help out with a lot of problems, but my dogs have had some biggies of their own that we've worked through so I've gained some valuable experience. I sure don't give advice if I can't help. Sometimes I will sympathize because I've been through similar problems.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Darrin, its not necessarily the amount of time but what has been done in it. Questions like how many dogs?how many titles? how many judging assignments? which breeds? which venue(s)?did you train em or pay someone to do it? who taught you? etc etc that determine whether one is speaking from experience or simply passing along a lack of it.

If you are going to have serious surgery, do you want to know what the cutter has done or are you satisfied with the fact that he has an MD after his name. You wouldn't want a dermatologist doing a vasectomy on you, or at least I wouldn't, no matter how long he had been a dermatologist.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> I think we need a sticky thread on here where everyone can list their credentials. It would be nice to be able to quickly research who has been there and done that from the others.


Once a persons' full name is known, it is pretty easy to research internet and get a lot of information on their history of entries. That doesn't always tell you everything but, its a good indicator. Looking at yearly title history on Chesapeake titles from the early 1990's to 2002 I saw your last name a whole bunch of times and I was looking for someone else who I didn't find at all. 

To add on to that; if, you yourself either knows or, thinks you know anything, you will quickly make a determination on the validity of the advice. But, this being a forum community, I haven't seen any bad advice go uncontested. Usually, the bad advice giver is slammed by the old guys pretty fast or, the loud mouths who are know it alls and rude. Paul


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I was thinking go to AKC.org and look them up in the judges section. Then try EE and look . Might give you a idea about some things. 

The problem sometimes with asking for advice is you may get a answer you may not like.

With my training group that I am sure knows more than I, I have told them to feel free and let me know when I am doing something wrong and dont spare my feelings. 

When I have been at one of my pros I either listen or ask questions or talk about something I actually no about. When you are talking to someone who does this for a living and won a national they may actually know what the are talking about.

Kinda when I am talking to my lawyer, accountant or insurance guy I try not to underwhelm them with what I dont know. I shut up and listen until they ask me about my profession. In most cases when folks I have interviewed tell me they are a expert or journeyman in 6 months almost makes me laugh at how much they dont know.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

I've always been partial to the poster's byline that reads something like....

"Take my advice, I'm not using it!"


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

If the benchmark is dogs titled or judging assignments completed, then I think that the publisher of a well known training program doesn't have the credentials to post here.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

"Those that can, do;

Those that can't, teach."


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

AmiableLabs said:


> "Those that can, do;
> 
> Those that can't, teach."


You want my job?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Darrin, its not necessarily the amount of time but what has been done in it. Questions like how many dogs?how many titles? how many judging assignments? which breeds? which venue(s)?did you train em or pay someone to do it? who taught you? etc etc that determine whether one is speaking from experience or simply passing along a lack of it.
> 
> If you are going to have serious surgery, do you want to know what the cutter has done or are you satisfied with the fact that he has an MD after his name. You wouldn't want a dermatologist doing a vasectomy on you, or at least I wouldn't, no matter how long he had been a dermatologist.


This is my position.

Anyone gets to say whatever they want

One factor in the consideration that I give to what is said is what the person has done

I think most people probably hold that belief ... even if they don't want to admit it


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Ted I concur about saying what you want. I do want to know what kind of frame of referrence a poster has when giving advice, especially those who use a handle or screen name when posting.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Again, we should all remember that most advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> I've always been partial to the poster's byline that reads something like....
> 
> "Take my advice, I'm not using it!"


WOW Vicky thanks!!

People ask me all the time who they should and shouldn't train with......

I always tell them that you can learn something from EVERYONE.....even if its what NOT to do.

Same applies here.....Vicky said it right, you get what you pay for. 

There are gems and then there are pieces of coal.....but the opposite of coal is a gem.

Man, I must be feeling philosophical today........

WRL


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

From 1985-1989 I fought on the Marine corps karate team in Okinawa, I am an expert marksman, I speak fluent spanish, I played guitar professionally for a while, and I am the greatest lover in Georgia.

What else do you want to know.


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Leddyman said:


> From 1985-1989 I fought on the Marine corps karate team in Okinawa, I am an expert marksman, I speak fluent spanish, I played guitar professionally for a while, and I am the greatest lover in Georgia.
> 
> What else do you want to know.


Are ya Single?


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> Are ya Single?


LOL....you might not want to go there!!!!!


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

I'm clueless, and training my dogs just reflects how clueless I am. Since I am a Federal Supervisor I have found that being clueless was and is my comfort zone. I have a great time though.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

DMA said:


> I'm clueless, and training my dogs just reflects how clueless I am. Since I am a Federal Supervisor I have found that being clueless was and is my comfort zone. I have a great time though.


Wow Doug I thought that was a "job requirement'??

WRL


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

WRL said:


> Wow Doug I thought that was a "job requirement'??
> 
> WRL


Yeah but Dougs dogs look smarter than me....how does that work? I must be beyond clueless......is there a name for that? --- Paul G.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

FOM said:


> As of late I have noticed that the question comes up "What are your credentials?" or the comment "You lack experience." etc, etc....
> 
> So I wonder for those who always feel compelled to ask this what consitutes enough experience that a person can post advice on RTF? What credentials are sufficient?


Lainee

You will recall that several years ago - you and I got into it. Much as Darrin and I got into it. 

Much of that back and forth centered around the question of whether respect is granted or earned

Because you have made a commitment to the sport and compete in both the Open and the Am, you have my respect

Darrin hasn't, and so he doesn't

That is not a comment on what kind of guy he is, because I don't know

It is a comment on the weight that I attach his opinions on the subject of running FT

If the experience of the person making the opinion is of no consequence, then we should all be asking Alfred E. Neumann for advice


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I enjoy reading the varying opinions on this site and I've gotten some good advice that made me *think*. (No it didn't hurt) I too try not to underwhelm with my lack of knowledge/credentials. You can look up accomplishments on AKC or EE--but who is to say that is more valuable then the guy who has talented "meat" dogs that go out and retrieve 500 ducks in a season, hammer pheasants on the 'off' weekend and never got those little initials before or after their name? Its all about perspective. What do you want to accomplish with your four legged buddies? The bottom line is some people would argue with God--so credentials won't mean squat to them. I like to get the popcorn out when they start talkin'--very entertaining. 


As for my credentials: (that would be PALS, NANCY)

1. I can design and build a pond or wetland with the best of 'em. 

2. I have a bumper sticker reads "DON'T COMPLAIN, JUST TRAIN". 

3. And I've been christened by Paul and Bubba for having fluffies, that's got to count for something. 

Everyone should be bubbatized at least once.


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> "Those that can, do;
> 
> Those that can't, teach."


The rest of that quote goes:

"...and those that can't do or teach evaluate."

Non-Judgmental Regards,

Joe S.


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## Joe S. (Jan 8, 2003)

WRL said:


> There are gems and then there are pieces of coal.....but the opposite of coal is a gem.


A piece of coal is a diamond that lacked guidance and direction.

There Is A Story There Regards,

Joe S.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> You will recall that several years ago - you and I got into it.


Something about onions I recall.....

FOM


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Joe S. said:


> A piece of coal is a diamond that lacked guidance and direction.
> 
> There Is A Story There Regards,
> 
> Joe S.


I like to think of coal as a diamond in the rough....

Pig eating regards...

FOM


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Darrin, its not necessarily the amount of time but what has been done in it. Questions like how many dogs?how many titles? how many judging assignments? which breeds? which venue(s)?did you train em or pay someone to do it? who taught you? etc etc that determine whether one is speaking from experience or simply passing along a lack of it.
> 
> If you are going to have serious surgery, do you want to know what the cutter has done or are you satisfied with the fact that he has an MD after his name. You wouldn't want a dermatologist doing a vasectomy on you, or at least I wouldn't, no matter how long he had been a dermatologist.


I agree Bob, but I don't see dog training anything at all like I see surgery involving the family jewels LOL. I also don't see message boards like I see dog training.

When's the last time you read:

Q: My dog won't pick up the bumper off the floor, help!
A: Pinch his ear with vice grips 

Q: What credentials do you have?
A: I've trained several AFC's.

Q: OK, thanks for your advice, I will go do it now.

There are probably a few old school trainers who have done it and have the credentials to pass muster, even here, but that doesn't mean I would ever take thier advice.

I guess my observation is that the question "asker" never seems to be the one questioning the answer giver's credentials... Inevitably, it's someone who really has no concern at all, looking to discredit or otherwise flame a person who, knowledgable or not, is just trying to help a lesser informed person.

Maybe those folks are just trying to fix all of what's wrong with the world, or save the reputation of RTF or something, but in general, they seem to be people who take all this message board stuff way too seriously for their own good.

Not to say that you do or don't do that. I read your posts quite often and always enjoy them, as I hope you do mine. 

But me thinks sometimes, those who say "he doesn't know what he's talking about" thinks a bit to highly of themselves...

I hear an aweful lot of the following statements from people whom I KNOW can train a dog:

"Every dog is different"
"You can't train a dog over the phone"
"I don't know what you've done with him"
"We do this, but a lot of people do that other thing, both work"
"They're just dogs"

"I don't KNOW"

Also, working in the professional world I have come accross a lot of people without a clue about a particular aspect of the business that came up with a solution to a problem that those of us entrenched in it for years could never have seen.

So I worry less abotu credentials and more about the IDEAS.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

DG,

You make some good points....

FOM


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> So I worry less abotu credentials and more about the IDEAS.


Silly me, I tend to give more credit to ideas on a subject about which the author has some experience


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Q: My dog won't pick up the bumper off the floor, help!
> A: Pinch his ear with vice grips


That reminds me...... I owe Angie a pair of pliers. Angie, was I supposed to get them engraved?


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

DMA said:


> I'm clueless, and training my dogs just reflects how clueless I am. Since I am a Federal Supervisor I have found that being clueless was and is my comfort zone. I have a great time though.


But, is being clueless above your pay grade?

My credentials are pretty slim. Trained lots of dogs, not many titles, never been bitten.

Tom


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I have been around these retriever games since the early 70's but I am wise enough to still listen to advise from others and smart enough to decide who is giving sound advice and which is just bloviating


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Buzz said:


> If the benchmark is dogs titled or judging assignments completed, then I think that the publisher of a well known training program doesn't have the credentials to post here.


Neither would Rex Carr, if memory of his credentials serves me right. 

He trained the trainer, and they handled their own dogs. Don't know if he ever judged. Others more knowledgeable than me can chime in. 

Beware Paper Tigers Regards;

Lisa


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Neither would Rex Carr, if memory of his credentials serves me right.
> 
> He trained the trainer, and they handled their own dogs. Don't know if he ever judged. Others more knowledgeable than me can chime in.
> 
> ...


Yep. Who has more credentials, the person who has trained 10 hunting dogs through basics and transition over the years or one that had their first dog trained by a pro and attended a few handling seminars to help them place in a few trials? 
The guy that has never owned a dog but thrown for a pro for 30 years?
The one that hasn't seen their dogs in action for the last 5 years but they've gone to the national for the last 3?

You've just got to look at the advise given, figure out if others agree, or more importantly DISAGREE enough to help you decide if it is good or bad.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

The value of credentials is all in the eye of the beholder. Ted mentioned he didn't respect Lainee until she stepped up and ran Open/AM. That clearly meant something to him. Another person may not care if a person runs the Open/Am but rather, did the person train the dog himself. Another person may not care if your trained the dog yourself, but wants to see numerous dogs trained. For others it all about what have you done lately. 

Even in the professional world credientials are valued by some and looked down on by others. Thats why in a court of law each side brings their "experts" (oh god I risk having fallon jump in here with that word) and then they duke it out on the stand. 

I've attended seminars with well known highly credited people and after listening to them decided I'd rather FF a barn cat than use their methods.

So at the end of the day, while I appreciate the expereince, the resume, credentials, knowledge whatever you want to call it, I have to decide for myself if the information is valid, will it work for the problem I'm facing, can I personally use it/impliment it, should I store it for another situation. When I get too smart, too stubborn, too stupid or too elite to listen to someone, all I do is cheat myself out of information that I can use somehow. So please, whatever you do, don't listen to anything I have to say, but please keep talking. See you at the line....

/Paul


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Neither would Rex Carr, if memory of his credentials serves me right.
> 
> He trained the trainer, and they handled their own dogs. Don't know if he ever judged. Others more knowledgeable than me can chime in.
> 
> ...


Maybe check the Retriever HOF I hear those folks know a thing or two about dogs.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Man!!!

I'm Goin to read only from now ern!



Gooser


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Because you have made a commitment to the sport and compete in both the Open and the Am, you have my respect
> 
> Darrin hasn't, and so he doesn't
> 
> ...





Geez Ted all that font sizing makes paraphrasing your quotes like playing chinese checkers half drunk...

As I recall, we were dicsussing the lack of volunteerism by professional trainers as well as the rank and file FT participants, and I explicitly put my opinion out there as that of a newbie, hoping that the community might be interested in what the future of the sport thinks on such topics.

You see Ted, you and yours won't always be here to run these things, and folks like myself are going to be replacing you in the not to distant future. Therefore, regardless of whether you give my opinion any credence, it is, in fact, very relevant to the topic that was at hand on that particular thread. 

You may not agree with me, and that is to be expected, but what you did was attempt to strip me naked and send me out into a hailstorm, sighting my lack of experience and participation as a reason to discount my opinion on the topic of human nature and self inflicted mental matrydom. All, as if it were somehow restricted to the world of FT when in fact, it spans every venue in the world today from the field to the show ring to little league fields and corporate board rooms all accross the world. There are always those who do, and those who take. That's a fact of life for the "doers".

I'm quite sure that those on the sideline of that thread were sitting back thinking about it from whatever viewpoint they have, whether it be mine, or yours, or one all thier own. We are all predisposed to do so, after all. 

All I was trying to do in that case was introduce a thought provoking element in a thread that was obviously a bitching session for those long timers in the sport who happen to frequent this board.

This topic is very much the same thing if you ask me, not that Lainee intended it that way. Bob's initial response leads us right into the "who do you think you are" banter that I hear time and time again from people in all walks of life. I personally don't subscribe to such narrow minded thinking, nor to treating people with that little respect. 

It is my personal opinion that no one on this board is offering training advice in an effort to screw up someone else's dog. I certainly hope we can all agree on that. It's also my opnion that occassionally, even the least knowledgable person in the room can make an observation that is all the difference in the solution. I've seen it time and time again therefore, anyone with the desire and willingness to take the time to help should be able to do so unmolested, whether you or Bob or anyone else agrees with their opinion on how to approach a training challenge.

And to my point in the previous post, when is the last time you asked for training advice on this board? I have never seen it in the last year or so, and I make it a point to read all of your posts (with interest). 

So what do you or any of the others on the "what are your credentials" bandwagon really care whose giving out training advice? 

With respect, DG


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

I know a few people with 30 plus years of dog experience and all their experience is bad...then again I know a guy that has been training dogs about 10 years that knows a lot.


You get the respect you give in life.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> And to my point in the previous post, when is the last time you asked for training advice on this board? I have never seen it in the last year or so, and I make it a point to read all of your posts (with interest).
> 
> So what do you or any of the others on the "what are your credentials" bandwagon really care whose giving out training advice?
> 
> With respect, DG


In Ted's defense he doesn't ask training questions because he doesn't train his dogs. His dogs are pro trained. He does judge, thus he shares in the judging and rules questions.

/Paul


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Bubbles,

Where would we be without you? I don't think RTF would be RTF without you/Paul/Bubba and some others. I, for one would be seriously bored.....


bubble blowin expert regards, :razz:


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pals said:


> Bubbles,
> 
> Where would we be without you? I don't think RTF would be RTF without you/Paul/Bubba and some others. I, for one would be seriously bored.....
> 
> ...


The world needs more humor. Thats why god created ********....

/paul

oh crap, I mentioned god. well this thread will now have to be moved to Potus place.....


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

achiro said:


> The one that hasn't seen their dogs in action for the last 5 years but they've gone to the national for the last 3.


I have run into this one recently. After joining me and my group for one session,they have the audacity to tell me I should give up on my dog or send him to a pro, because I haven't the skill to handle him. Meanwhile, I enjoy working with my dog every week and this other person doesn't even see the dog for 9 months out of the year. Who has creds here?



Gun_Dog2002 said:


> T
> 
> So at the end of the day, while I appreciate the expereince, the resume, credentials, knowledge whatever you want to call it, I have to decide for myself if the information is valid, will it work for the problem I'm facing, can I personally use it/impliment it, should I store it for another situation.
> 
> /Paul


Another one right on target Paul.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

DG,

Not to worry, Ted and I went around the same mulberry bush....just have to take Ted for who he is.....he has his view of the world....trust me, Ted and I have gone toe to toe more than once....

And you can morph this thread into what ever it needs to morph into....

I think with the internet communication is hampered and way too many people take this way too seriously.....I know once upon a time I did....RTF is a big ol' tailgate, you hang out at one person's truck, drink a beer talk trash and then go find another cold beer at someone else's tailgate - sometimes the conversations are good, sometimes they suck, tempers flair, arguements pursue, but in the end this is just one big tailgate....

Anyway.....I'm bored out of my mind at work, would rather be training or hunting....

FOM


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Silly me, I tend to give more credit to ideas on a subject about which the author has some experience


After making a statement like that I might say you're narrow minded, or even foolish Ted, but I wouldn't call you "silly". 

No good idea is without it's nay sayers and no one knows it all, regards,


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> I know a few people with 30 plus years of dog experience and all their experience is bad...then again I know a guy that has been training dogs about 10 years that knows a lot.


Some folks have 30 years of experience and some folks have 1 year of experience 30 times.

Big difference regards

Bubba


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> In Ted's defense he doesn't ask training questions because he doesn't train his dogs. His dogs are pro trained. He does judge, thus he shares in the judging and rules questions.
> 
> /Paul


Not so true....

FOM


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

I have to agree with Ted, here. The value of the credentials kinda depends on the context. Someone with 5 NFC dogs on his truck isn't going to necessarily have much useful advice to give on how to handle a dog in an HRC Finished Hunt, and vice versa. It all depends.

There, I Said It Regards;

Lisa


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> When I get too smart, too stubborn, too stupid or too elite to listen to someone, all I do is cheat myself out of information that I can use somehow. So please, whatever you do, don't listen to anything I have to say, but please keep talking. See you at the line....
> 
> /Paul


post of the day, regards,


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> post of the day, regards,


It can't be the post of the day, there was no picture!


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

FOM said:


> Not so true....
> 
> FOM


Ted has never hid the fact he uses a pro. Why would he ask questions here when he has pro resources that know and understand his dogs, their history and personality? Can't fault him for not asking questions here.

/Paul


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ted has never hid the fact he uses a pro. Why would he ask questions here when he has pro resources that know and understand his dogs, their history and personality? Can't fault him for not asking questions here.
> 
> /Paul



I never intended to have this turn into the "Ted Shih Commentary" thread folks.

His point is well taken, even by me. Believe me I don't take training advice but from a few people whose dogs I see run from time to time  

Ted has never insulted or in any way abused me, nor is he here. We just look at the topic differently.

Please judge the dog, regards,


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

The value of credentials is variable. Many of the training and handing suggestions posted here are simply "this is what I do/did". It is up to person seeking help to determine if this method fits into their dog's overall training experience. A big part of training and handling is being able to read your dog and adopting your actions to meet the dog's needs. None of it is "gospel". 
There was a a thread here about a year ago about reading some people's posting more than others. I said "Yes".

BTW keep in mind others attempts at credentialing people in the retriever world has not been widely accepted.

Tim


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> As I recall, we were dicsussing the lack of volunteerism by professional trainers as well as the rank and file FT participants, and I explicitly put my opinion out there as that of a newbie, hoping that the community might be interested in what the future of the sport thinks on such topics.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Darrin

Obviously, you remain quite upset about all of this.

I thought then, and now, that your comments about a sport in which you did not participate were unfounded. Some people agreed with me, others did not. So be it. As far as I am concerned it is a done deal. Clearly, not so with you. It is nothing personal to me. Again, it seems the same is not true for you.

If I have a choice between reading what Dennis Voigt says about FT and what you have to say about FT, I pick Dennis. I pick experience. If you want to pick otherwise, that is your choice.

As you correctly note, I don't offer training advice or ask training questions. 

I don't offer training advice (even though I train alot and know alot about training) because I don't feel qualified - unlike you - to offer opinions about matters on which I don't have expertise particularly without seeing the dog in person. 

I don't ask training questions because if I have training questions, I ask my pro Cherylon Loveland or Judy Aycock, Dave Rorem, Bill Eckett, Bobby George, Bill Schrader, Danny Farmer, Dennis Voigt or others on my own. I try my best to go to the best. I don't ask the world at large on the internet because quite frankly, I don't want to sift through the chaff. If I want an opinion, I try to go to someone who has been there and done that, and proven it with their dogs.

My philosophy has nothing to do with the holier than thou attitude with which you would like to saddle me. Rather, it has to do with how I run my life.

I try not to speak on matters about which I have no experience.
Others have no such restrictions.
It is all a matter of choice.

Ours differ.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> I have to agree with Ted, here. The value of the credentials kinda depends on the context. Someone with 5 NFC dogs on his truck isn't going to necessarily have much useful advice to give on how to handle a dog in an HRC Finished Hunt, and vice versa. It all depends.
> 
> There, I Said It Regards;
> 
> Lisa


Curious Lisa? When's the last time you asked for training advice on this, or any other forum?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ted has never hid the fact he uses a pro. Why would he ask questions here when he has pro resources that know and understand his dogs, their history and personality? Can't fault him for not asking questions here.
> 
> /Paul


I was not disagree with the fact he does not ask training questions or post answers, but to say he does not train his dogs isn't necessarly true...

That'a all I am saying nothing more, nothing less....

FOM


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> I don't offer training advice (even though I train alot and know alot about training) because I don't feel qualified - unlike you - to offer opinions about matters on which I don't have expertise particularly without seeing the dog in person.
> 
> I don't ask training questions because if I have training questions, I ask my pro Cherylon Loveland or Judy Aycock, Dave Rorem, Bill Eckett, Bobby George, Bill Schrader, Danny Farmer, Dennis Voigt or others on my own. I try my best to go to the best. I don't ask the world at large on the internet because quite frankly, I don't want to sift through the chaff. If I want an opinion, I try to go to someone who has been there and done that, and proven it with their dogs.
> 
> ...


Up till now I haven't taken one word personally Ted, but I'll admit, that last post tweaks me a bit, so here are some closing thoughts as I head out for the weekend planning to actually train my dogs, hunt some birds and maybe even exchange and idea or two with someone who knows more than me about those topics. 

Let me make one thing clear Ted, you and your long list of famous names not only don't impress me in the least, they don't bother me one bit either. I'm happy for you that you are able to buy your way into those circles by having your dogs trained by "the best of the best". Be sure of one thing, that if I am ever there with you, it will be because I became the miracle trainer of all retrievers, not because I could afford to have someone I call "my pro". (BTW did Cherylon give you permission to refer to her as a posession ) 

I do take a bit of offense to you calling me a blowhard however, I have to admit that. 

Go back through my posts...

My initial debate with you had nothing to do with FT but you fail to see that point because I don't meet your minimum standards for credentials. It had to do with human nature and human nature alone. The doers always resent the takers, yet they keep doing, all the while whining about it. If you find that to be untrue, well, I need educating. 

Going back, you will find a place or two where I made a training suggestion to someone, mainly relating to an experience I had myself or a massive mistake I made at the cost of my dog, that I would rather not see someone else's dog pay for as well. Other than that I prefer to let others get ripped to shreds by the likes of yourself, thus I refrain from comment.

I've actually taken some bull from my training group over that, but I press on because I sure as hell know what mistakes I have made and what the costs have been to the poor animal I made them with. You see while I care what the group and the community thinks of me, I care more about the dogs. I may be a newbie but my dogs are my buddies. They actually live with me, in my house, on my couch, unlike those on pro trucks with rich owners who see them a few times a year. Not that I have a problem with those folks. I just don't choose to do this that way. 

You will also see no commentary whatsoever about the topics you claim to be so expert on, as I know nothing of them and refrain from commenting on them as well.

You see Ted, there are those who I have learned from in this community, yourself included.

From one man I learned to "think about what the dog sees". I have applied that knowledge over and over again in my own training and I even offered it up once here, only to be told I didn't know what I was talking about. I hope he remembers telling me that because he is reading this thread. That's one of the simplest and most sensible pieces of advice I have been given thus far, and it was given by a guy I trained with one day who happens to have a decade or four of experience. And to think he didn't know what he was talking about, as the illulstrious RTFrs informed me when I regurgitated his thoughts. 

From you I learned that there are people in this sport to watch out for, lest they have a detrimental effect on your enjoyment. There are those hung up on status, those hung up on credentials and those who think their crap smells like roses.

Luckily, so far, those haven't been the majority.

You're right, we differ.

I am open to all ideas from all people, which I sincerely appreciate, should they find it in their heart to spend some time relating them to me. I then quietly sort them and use what I can while disregarding the rest, never allowing those whom I've spoken to feel one bit of shame for what they said.

You on the other hand, seem to be in the habit of publicly discounting the opinion of people whose names you don't recognize, those who have no "credentials" as you put it and those with whom you disagree.

You're right Ted, we differ.

Good night, and BTW Happy New Year.


----------



## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

> I've attended seminars with well known highly credited people and after listening to them decided I'd rather FF a barn cat than use their methods.


Good post Paul.
And look what it cost you to learn that you would really rather FF the cat. I always respect people because they are just that, people.

Why is it that in order to post on a thread or voice an opinion people want to know exactly who it is they are talking to? Does it in some way limit the response that one might have? If so, why? We are all a bunch of wondering minds that at the present have nothing else to do. This is a way of communicating with people from all walks of life and different parts of the country all within your warm and cozy office, workplace, or home. One can even learn a bit about the things one likes to do in their spare time such as train our dogs.

We are all the same here, and if we didn't have the love of the dogs and the sport of FT's, HT etc. we all would be at a different site doing the same thing as we are doing now but with a different hobby in mind. I really think that some here need to take a deep breath and think about the things they say as far as being offensive to one another. What we do is supposed to be fun, this site is just an extension of that. People's opinion's are just that, opinion's. Not to be taken as a personal attacks, which is what happens all to often.
Regards,
Still training with Tullis? 


/Paul[/QUOTE]


----------



## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

"Credentials"

I have been in the construction Business for over 30 years. One day a few years back I hire this kid who wants me to train him and is willing to do what ever it takes, So I start to teach him, I have the "Credentials or experience....

3 weeks go by and we were working on a project when I say "This is the way I would do it".

And He says "What if you did it this way" .

I could of said I have 30 years experence and will do it my way.
I said Lets try it.... And it worked and saved my a bunch of time and money.....

Did he have Credentials ...NO, Did he have Experience...NO But he had a great IDEA..

Sometimes a different perspective is needed to solve a problem. With dogs I dont see any difference.

I could never give advise on what I have not done, But might have an idea that may help.... And I think there are alot of good ideas on here.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Excellent analogy, keskam. An open mind is often a welcome abode for learning. 

Your story reminds me of something dog trainers everywhere should keep in mind...the definition of insanity; Continuing to do the same thing, the same way, and expecting a different result. I've repeated a story about being at Carr's one summer when the group discussed some late/great dogs. When Rex was asked about one particular one that everyone knew and were impressed by he replied, "Well, he was a great one. But what might he have been?"

I was impressed that to him they all deserved respect, but could always be better in some way, no matter how great a record they had. The same goes for the trainers, I imagine! 

Evan


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Up till now I haven't taken one word personally Ted ...


Darrin

If that is true

Why did you post this earlier?



DarrinGreene said:


> You may not agree with me, and that is to be expected, but what you did was attempt to strip me naked and send me out into a hailstorm ...


I think you say whatever fits the moment

Ted


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Oat Chaff here are my credentials:



National Oatworkers Contribution award. The only other person to receive the award was H.K. Hayes the former head of the Agronomy department and the building now bears his name. My greatest honor was when the Minnesota Crop Improvement Society released the oat variety _Richard. 
_
Dogs I am a has been with one good derby dog else my friend Ralph Dooley has trained the dogs while I get to let the boys climb on the bed and lick me while I scratch their ears. I try to be as fair in trials as I can to a fault at times this sense of fairness cost Ralph the State Derby Championship. I was throwing the last bird and tried too hard hit the same spot, but the bird rolled of the point and started to float away.

Maybe a little brag and fact.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Likewise, Darrin you post this



DarrinGreene said:


> I never intended to have this turn into the "Ted Shih Commentary" thread folks.


But, earlier said this




DarrinGreene said:


> Having been told "go home newbie" (NOT by Bob mind you)...
> 
> On a thread where BTW it wasn't even training advice...
> 
> By one of the most respected posters here (Mr. Shih)...


Another example of saying what fits the moment?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Let me make one thing clear Ted, you and your long list of famous names not only don't impress me in the least, they don't bother me one bit either.* I'm happy for you that you are able to buy your way into those circles* by having your dogs trained by "the best of the best". Be sure of one thing, that if I am ever there with you, it will be because I became the miracle trainer of all retrievers, not because I could afford to have someone I call "my pro". (BTW did Cherylon give you permission to refer to her as a posession )


Darrin

Obviously, this is something personal for you.

I can no longer remember what we first tangled over. But, you can. And you wasted no time on this thread taking a shot at me. And then another. And another. Then when people pressed you on it, you claimed that you never meant to make this about me. 


And now you make the claim that I have bought my way into the sport.

If you are going to take shots at me, then you need to work on your accuracy.
Because you have missed the target.

It is your willingness to say things about which you have no knowledge that causes me to give you so little consideration.


If by "buy" my way into the sport, that I have spent way too much money on puppies, training, entry fees, hours training, hours competing, and miles on the road, yes, I have paid plenty. But, of course, that is not what you meant.


If you mean that I have used money to pay my way into conversations with the people that you listed - which, of course, was the point of your post - then you were wrong and recklessly so.


My dogs have been trained by Cherylon Loveland and Dave Rorem. I suppose you could say that I have bought them. I think they would disagree with you. But, hey, why mess with the truth?


The other people that I mentioned are people with whom I have trained with over the years and who I like and respect. My sense of it is that they are willing to share their thoughts with me because they appreciate my passion for the sport. 

But, hey, why bother with the truth? It’s much more fun to accuse a guy of buying his way into their circles. Don’t let the facts get in the way.


And feel free to think that I never train because my dogs are pro trained. Don’t mind that it’s not true. Don’t let the facts get in the way.


Say whatever you want to say, regardless of the truth.


Apparently, that’s what you do. 

Ted


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Darrin
> 
> Obviously, this is something personal for you.
> 
> ...


I have been following this thread and I must ask, why must you keep on with this "stuff"? Just wondering.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

i have been reading this all day, and because i was admonished for a purported personal attack where i asked someone their credentials, i would like to temporarily break my vow of silence to clarify and put it this way:

i welcome ANYONE'S advice, you never know, i can learn something from someone who doesn't even have a single titled dog to his name depending on the actual issue discussed. titles do not equal expertise, Evans success is evidence of that.

i dont care so much of the credentials of someone with positively heartfelt advice. you listen to it all and in the end decide what works best for you. i dont care if its a first time dog owner, i will listen.

my point is anyone who constantly attacks and ridicules people that have valid questions SHOULD post their credentials. i dont mind taking advice from someone who has only one or even no JR's, even though i have 3 HRCH's, i DONT CARE. and for this purpose i will equate an HRCH to a SH to be fair.

bit i dont want to be* ridiculed *by someone who has zero credentials. BIG difference. if you are going to puff out your chest back it up. simple.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> I have been following this thread and I must ask, why must you keep on with this "stuff"? Just wondering.


Why read it if you don't like it?

Just wondering


----------



## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Why read it if you don't like it?
> 
> Just wondering


I like it I just don't understand why you have to keep fanning the fire? He already posted he was leaving for the weekend but yet you keep on cutting him down. Just seems kinda childish to me!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> I like it I just don't understand why you have to keep fanning the fire? He already posted he was leaving for the weekend but yet you keep on cutting him down. Just seems kinda childish to me!


Well, I don't like people mis-stating the truth, particularly when it pertains to me

When people take shots at you, you are free to ignore to your heart's content


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Well, I don't like people mis-stating the truth, particularly when it pertains to me
> 
> When people take shots at you, you are free to ignore to your heart's content


But you are doing it right back. If it bugs you so much step up and be the better man.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Time for an RTF 10 series. Settle disputes. Establish the bragging rights for the year. One on the west coast, one on the east coast, finals in the middle somewhere......


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> But you are doing it right back. If it bugs you so much step up and be the better man.


I would tell you that what I have said is based on the facts
That what he has said is not

And I would tell you that when you are placed in the box, you can tell me how it feels

And are you not doing now what you accused he and I of doing?

Why don't you let it go?


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Hey, I am not trying to start something I was trying to end it! You seem to be the one who keeps coming back with stuff! Get another one locked, I don't care!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Someone here has got to be right, I just can't figure out who it is.....


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

FOM said:


> DG,
> 
> Not to worry, Ted and I went around the same mulberry bush....just have to take Ted for who he is.....he has his view of the world....trust me, Ted and I have gone toe to toe more than once....
> 
> ...


Lainee, don't mean to high jack this thread because it is so riveting but what are you able to hunt in CO this time of year?


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Wade said:


> Lainee, don't mean to high jack this thread because it is so riveting but what are you able to hunt in CO this time of year?


Geese and duck....I do believe....


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Lainee, we got 2 deer and 8 ducks in the last few days. Had agreat time. I appreciate Ted, but dang if he doesn't need to get over it here. Sorry


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

To the original question: the single most important calling lesson this old guide has learned didn't come from any of the many pros or champion callers I've hunted with. It came from an observant haberdasher on his first duck hunt. His fresh vantage revealed something all my experience had managed to miss.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Rick Hall said:


> To the original question: the single most important calling lesson this old guide has learned didn't come from any of the many pros or champion callers I've hunted with. It came from an observant haberdasher on his first duck hunt. His fresh vantage revealed something all my experience had managed to miss.



Well, what was it?


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

_*aaffflaaaack!*_


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Snicklefritz said:


> _*aaffflaaaack!*_


That is a good one!


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## Matt's Grizz (Apr 17, 2008)

I am a total amateur! (Listing my vast credentials) I loves all the reply's I get when I have a training problem. Whether from a pro or a total amateur! The way I see it is that all dogs have different personalities and there's different ways to make every dog understand what you're trying to accomplish with their training. If a solution comes to me and it makes sense then I'll try it. Whether from a pro or otherwise. I welcome all.............


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> rest of that quote goes:
> 
> "...and those that can't do or teach evaluate."
> 
> Non-Judgmental Regards,


 
OMG I'm screwed
Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Well Ted, suffice to say I am a liar and surpreme twister of information for my own purposes. 

I just do want to tell you one thing. When I said you "bought" your way into that circle I meant that you did it by placing dogs with big name trainers and placing yourself in position to meet and get to know a lot of people that a guy like me who has one dog and trains on the weekend isn't going to ever meet. 

I would say I envy you for that, and in an occassional weak moment I'll admit I do, but by and large I don't see a bit of value in it, except to have a bunch of names to drop to make myself look good in my own mirror.

I just wanted you and everyone else to know I wasn't calling you some sort of whore because even if I knew you personally, and thought that of you, it's not something I would ever say about anyone.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, that's good to know

And I am sure that Cherylon will be delighted to know that she is a big name trainer - I don't think that she has ever been called that before.

As far as I know, the only big name trainer with whom I have placed my dogs is Dave Rorem.

Ted


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Just got caught up on this thread. Please take any further discussion to PM status.

Thanks.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Look!

It all boils down to the Lainee comment!
I'm Happy she has stepped up and is run sumpin that qualified her as an early morning per. ( The AM i presume)

BUT She is special in my eyes cause she invited me to a HRC event (My first) and when She witnessed me disperse a couple crowds with my stupidity, She came up and introduced herself and talked to me the rest of the day!!

NO SOBER WOMAN HAS EVER TREATED ME THIS WAY BEFORE!!

I was smitten!


Thanks Lainee!!

I tend to be an AM person too!

Your buddy 
Gooser


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

I have seen Lainee grow from a "newbie" to a "contender"! She soaked up every bit of knowledge she could at the Rorem Seminar where I first got to meet her in person! She and Ted were both handlers at that seminar and I believe everyone left with new inspiration and training tips to use with their dogs.....I know I did. I've been at this game for 20 years and still found lots to learn from Dave!


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> Oat Chaff here are my credentials:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Might I add one more "credential".

You are the one that has redefined the word dignity for me.

Thank you Sir regards

Bubba


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Might I add one more "credential".
> 
> You are the one that has redefined the word dignity for me.
> 
> ...


Could not agree more...world needs more people like Richard.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Bubba said:


> Might I add one more "credential".
> 
> You are the one that has redefined the word dignity for me.
> 
> ...



I had to have a nurse help me put on my pants today that is the ultimate loss of dignity.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Richard......the ultimate loss of dignity will be when the coroner or mortician has to tend to your body....but then you won't care.

Please don't feel that having to have help is a loss of dignity. You have been an inspiration to so many people!


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> I had to have a nurse help me put on my pants today that is the ultimate loss of dignity.


No Sir, that ain't even close.

That is assistance from an associate.

Loss of dignity is WAY more than that.

Keeping your chin up in the face of adversity is what I'm talking about.

Hope I am as blessed regards

Bubba


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

I couldn't agree more with the last few posts!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Bubba said:


> Might I add one more "credential".
> 
> You are the one that has redefined the word dignity for me.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Barry said:


> Good post Paul.
> And look what it cost you to learn that you would really rather FF the cat. I always respect people because they are just that, people.
> 
> Why is it that in order to post on a thread or voice an opinion people want to know exactly who it is they are talking to? Does it in some way limit the response that one might have? If so, why? We are all a bunch of wondering minds that at the present have nothing else to do. This is a way of communicating with people from all walks of life and different parts of the country all within your warm and cozy office, workplace, or home. One can even learn a bit about the things one likes to do in their spare time such as train our dogs.
> ...


[/quote]

Oh ya, we get together and talk most every day if nothing else. 

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> I had to have a nurse help me put on my pants today that is the ultimate loss of dignity.



No way. Not even close. If you want to see loss of dignity, go back in this thread and look at some of the posts. That is a loss of dignity. 

/Paul


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

Some of this is even better than POTUS PLACE. I may never go back there again.

JD


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## captdan (Jan 25, 2004)

If you log on to RTFCredentials.BS, you can have them organize your credentials and run a printout for you. They will also issue an official membership card stating that you have attained the status necessary to submit questions, comments, or to deliver advice to any and all who will read and pay attention to it. There are thousands of satisfied users of this service already, and more are joining the ranks every day. Don't miss out on your chance. Send just $19.99 now. Send me a pm for the address. ;-)

Dan Rice


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

*There already is a real site* ,hosted by a guy that posts regularly on here, that is primarilary dedicated to ones credentials. 
That site is plagued with accusations of real or imagined miss- or skewed information. 
What's to guarantee the accuracy of any compilation in *this* regard.

john


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

john fallon said:


> *There already is a real site* ,hosted by a guy that posts regularly on here, that is primarilary dedicated to ones credentials.
> That site is plagued with accusations of real or imagined miss- or skewed information.
> What's to guarantee the accuracy of any compilation in *this* regard.
> 
> john


True. And, further, who is to say that because a person has verifiable credentials stating performance success and/or time doing it, that they have any capacity to teach humans how to train dogs?

Evan


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Evan said:


> True. And, further, who is to say that because a person has verifiable credentials stating performance success and/or time doing it, that they have any capacity to teach humans how to train dogs?
> 
> Evan


It was pointed out on here yesterday that performance success would rule out a few people. Say for instance you, Rex Carr, and I don't know about Cherylon. She doesn't run dogs now, how about in her past?


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

john fallon said:


> *There already is a real site* ,hosted by a guy that posts regularly on here, that is primarilary dedicated to ones credentials.
> That site is plagued with accusations of real or imagined miss- or skewed information.


What does one do when the truth is told & one does not like the results? They make the false accusation that the information is incorrect, & they make it in large bold letters to emphasize their embarassment.

Time to go make breakfast, Regards. OOPS, just saw the time posted - it's a lot earlier than that here.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Evan said:


> True. And, further, who is to say that because a person has verifiable credentials stating performance success and/or time doing it, that they have any capacity to teach humans how to train dogs?
> 
> Evan


Very true Evan.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Rick Hall said:


> To the original question: the single most important calling lesson this old guide has learned didn't come from any of the many pros or champion callers I've hunted with. It came from an observant haberdasher on his first duck hunt. His fresh vantage revealed something all my experience had managed to miss.





Leddyman said:


> Well, what was it?


Long story made shorter: I was serious POed at a fellow in the next blind and called everything off them and to us until they got disgusted and packed it in. But after they left, I found myself unable to buy a bird. Begged, pleaded, called more, called less: no go. Finally admitted my befuddlement aloud, and my first-timer guest gun allowed that he didn't know a thing about calling ducks, but thought it sounded like I'd quit "telling" the birds and started "asking" them. The observant newcomer was absolutely right, and a change of attitude on my part immediately affected a change of attitude on the birds' part and quickly finished our straps.

That was quite some years back, but as our season winds down and gun weary birds become tougher and tougher to fool, I've been finding that observation as poignant as ever.


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

Deleted by me


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Credentials are defined by the audience. ;-)

There are some folks who think I'm an absolute, damn wizard with a dog!

There are others, more knowledgeable (and their resumes reflect it), who watch me and see all the mistakes I make. These are the people I seek out and watch and listen to when I want to improve myself and learn to do the things they can do.

When my ego needs a boost, I go have a beer with the first group! 

Phase III regards,

JS


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

JS said:


> Credentials are defined by the audience. ;-)
> 
> There are some folks who think I'm an absolute, damn wizard with a dog!
> 
> ...


Isn't that the truth


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

Buzz said:


> It was pointed out on here yesterday that performance success would rule out a few people. Say for instance you, Rex Carr, and I don't know about Cherylon. She doesn't run dogs now, how about in her past?



That sounds confusing to me...because that was pointed out, does that mean it's true or absolute? It seems that performance success can be defined in more than one way. 

Dogs as a general rule can't be very successfully run before they are successfully trained. Rex's record is quite impressive and not only did he train his dogs (on the list: NFCs, NAFCs, FCs, AFCs) but he also trained their owners how to handle them... So what is the problem? 

Thanks for reading...


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Vickie Lamb said:


> That sounds confusing to me...because that was pointed out, does that mean it's true or absolute? It seems that performance success can be defined in more than one way.
> 
> Dogs as a general rule can't be very successfully run before they are successfully trained. Rex's record is quite impressive and not only did he train his dogs (on the list: NFCs, NAFCs, FCs, AFCs) but he also trained their owners how to handle them... So what is the problem?
> 
> Thanks for reading...


I don't believe I was saying what you think.

In fact, I thought I was implying that performance success can be defined in more than one way, such as looking to see how many FC/AFC's someone has owned, or how many judging points they have. On this and other threads, that's how I saw it defined.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Evan said:


> True. And, further, who is to say that because a person has verifiable credentials stating performance success and/or time doing it, that they have any capacity to teach humans how to train dogs?
> 
> Evan


There is a woman here in Pennsylvania that has or had more FC's than any one individual in the sport. She'll be the first to tell you that she has only gone to the line once in her many years of involvement in the sport. She has also never trained a dog to a competitive level. But I would be remiss if I ignored her or discounted her information when she speaks of breeding, bloodlines, trainers and so on because of her limited hands on experience.


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Rick Hall said:


> Long story made shorter: I was serious POed at a fellow in the next blind and called everything off them and to us until they got disgusted and packed it in. But after they left, I found myself unable to buy a bird. Begged, pleaded, called more, called less: no go. Finally admitted my befuddlement aloud, and my first-timer guest gun allowed that he didn't know a thing about calling ducks, but thought it sounded like I'd quit "telling" the birds and started "asking" them. The observant newcomer was absolutely right, and a change of attitude on my part immediately affected a change of attitude on the birds' part and quickly finished our straps.
> 
> That was quite some years back, but as our season winds down and gun weary birds become tougher and tougher to fool, I've been finding that observation as poignant as ever.


Richard, I think your story is an example of how we can learn from anyone. Pretty much anyone here who has overcome a problem with a dog is qualified to reply to a post about a similar problem. People can learn from absolute newbies. Sometimes you learn things NOT to do, but it is learning. When I was a sub teacher, I went into every classroom with the attitude that I was going to be mentored that day. I made myself learn something from every classroom situation. Often, it was what I would never do in my own clasroom, but it is still learning. 

Right now I have a sign in my classroom that says "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't make them all yourself." While I agree that some peoples ideas are way off, it becomes an opportunity to teach them as well. I don't have any credentials related to dogs, but I have learned a lot. Right now I am being baby stepped through FF. Because it is no new to me and I am taking longer than normal to do this, I might be able to explain a step to someone just starting better than someone who has done it a thousand times because the more times someone does something the more habit it becomes. When it becomes habit you just do it without thinking about what you're doing. Since I'm so new at it I AM thinking about every single step in the process.


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## Flats3 (Aug 22, 2008)

Anyone looking for help and restricting their sources to just those with credentials in the HT/FT fields are missing out on some great sources for ideas. We have people in our training groups that are new to the hunt test sport but have trained their dogs to the highest levels in obedience, tracking and agility. These people have come up with some great ideas for solving problems with line manners(obedience trainers) and explaining why a dog is being drawn off their line on the way to a mark(tracking trainers). And people involved with search and rescue and training service dogs are a wealth of information.

When I took my hunt test dog out to hunt for the first time this season she wouldn't leave my side because she was convinced that if I was walking out in the fields with my shotgun that we must be doing walk-up drills. The next day I brought our tracking dog with us, who has no hunt test or hunting experience and she immediately began working the fields. The hunt test dog watched what she was doing and the problem was fixed. They became a great team for the rest of the season, except I think they think their job is to find and flush the bird and then I scare it away by shooting at it.

So, if you look, you may find an answer to your problems outside the HT/FT world.

Hal


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

greg magee said:


> There is a woman here in Pennsylvania that has or had more FC's than any one individual in the sport. She'll be the first to tell you that she has only gone to the line once in her many years of involvement in the sport. She has also never trained a dog to a competitive level. But I would be remiss if I ignored her or discounted her information when she speaks of breeding, bloodlines, trainers and so on because of her limited hands on experience.


And that is more to the point I was attempting to make. A lot of people can provide input that is valuable to someone. The lady you're referencing may have reason to have great information. However, having information does not assure an individual is good at conveying their point or points to someone trying to learn.

In short, the idea of some "credentials" formula that allows someone to post has no legs, at least not in my view.

Evan


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

After only training my own labs for 4 short yrs( I trained and competed with pointers and setters for over 20) not really knowing who Rex Carr was until I started reading here. He must have been one heck of a trainer if he could train people to run their own dogs that he trained. People are way harder to train. Example: I met and started trainng with a pro bird dog trainer back in the day. I had pointers I hunted with and knew nothing about horseback field trails. It wasn't long before I had two Tenn walking horses,a horse trailer and a couple well bred FT pointers. I got spanked alot at first then had some success. This same pro that I learned from(he did not train my dogs but he trained me)had a client for over 20 yrs that owned several Champion dogs. He also had some he trained himself with help from the same pro. My point is I don't think he has ever placed a dog in a trial,even the Ch dogs the pro trained. He just couldn't grasp how to handle a dog but he loved the game. Some people just can't do what other people can do. The good thing was that he reconized that and the really good prospects got sent to the pro. The other side was that he knew what was required of a dog and he was a pretty good judge of dogs but he just couldn't train and handle good enough to be competitive himself. To this day if I lost my mind and wanted to get back into bird dogs I would ask his opinion on a breeding.


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

Buzz said:


> I don't believe I was saying what you think.
> 
> In fact, I thought I was implying that performance success can be defined in more than one way, such as looking to see how many FC/AFC's someone has owned, or how many judging points they have. On this and other threads, that's how I saw it defined.


Buzz (Dave), I wasn't taking that from you...your post was there to quote. 

But, when looking at performance, take regarding judging points for instance...Looking up judging points tells you how many times someone judged, but that doesn't make him/her a good judge. And looking up dogs someone titled only says that person is a good handler, but not necessarily a good trainer, unless he/she did the training, which is often not the case. 

I was wading through all these pages of posts and knew I had seen it (reference to Rex not having credentials) wayyyy earlier, but at the time (late) didn't wade back through them all to find it. I'm doing so now:



Lisa Van Loo said:


> *Neither would Rex Carr, if memory of his credentials serves me right.
> He trained the trainer, and they handled their own dogs. * Don't know if he ever judged. Others more knowledgeable than me can chime in.
> 
> Beware Paper Tigers Regards;
> ...



Who defines "credentials" ? 

Rex trained DOGS. He also trained their handlers. There were also a few people that he trained to train dogs, few in the general scope of things. 

The DOGS Rex trained number in the NFCs, NAFCs, FCs and AFCs as I mentioned in my earlier post. 

He worked very hard in teaching and training the owners/handlers of those dogs how to be good at such.

Not all of them wanted to learn how to TRAIN. 

And then, anyone who knew Rex heard him say over and over again that nobody could learn how to train dogs his way by coming to stay for a week, or two weeks, or a month, or even a few months...and he wasn't being egotistical when saying that. WHAT HE MEANT was that in a week, or two weeks, or a month, etc., the observer would only see certain parts of training on certain dogs...not the whole enchilada...not the "works" and what is applied to one dog for one thing might be completely the wrong choice for another dog, etc. and what that dog had been through prior to that point may be completely different than what another dog might have for a background/foundation... In my own particular case, I went out there with enough money to stay for 5-6 weeks if I really budgeted...and I thought that would be extraordinary. I immediately found out differently (try, the first night I was there when Rex and I had several hours-long talk in his study) and over that weekend I went out and found two jobs waitressing at night to help finance a much longer stay. 
Of course, everyone has different circumstances, and not everyone could come (because of job/career or financial or family or combined-thereof restrictions) for more than a week or two, but he continually cautioned about the depth of training.
He always did his best to teach fundamentals on philosophy of training to those who really wanted to learn. 

Rex's criteria for helping people essentially boiled down to his determination on whether they had the desire to learn, or not.

Rex also used to say that there was always something to be learned from just about anyone...Now, it might be how NOT to do something, but invariably something always to be learned. 

Maybe this all belongs on a new thread... ?

Anyway, thanks for reading...


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> Who defines "credentials" ?


Vickie;

Thanks for the clarification. 

My post was not a "dig" at Rex, actually quite the opposite. Those who start these type of threads invariable decide that if one has not handled to X titles, or written a book on training, or put out DVDs and such, one is not "qualified" to give advice. Ergo my reference to Rex, who most certainly was qualified to give advice.

Who defines "credentials"? was entirely my point.

Also agree with the sentiment, You can learn from anybody, which was also my point.

Lisa


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