# The "walk-off"



## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Any judges here ever have a handler come up, watch the marks go down and then leash up their pooch and walk-off without picking up a bird (out of protest)?


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## PennyRetrievers (Mar 29, 2013)

No, but I've thought about it.


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## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

Is this basically a way of saying, "This setup is so ridiculous I'm not even going to run it."?

If so, that's interesting. If I pay an entry fee, I'm at least going to give it a whirl.


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## PennyRetrievers (Mar 29, 2013)

In my case it wasn't the test, it was the ridiculous things the judge told me before being able to run the test. Like confontationally telling me that I needed to take my knife out of my pocket and my keys off my belt, because the dog would see these items as tools for applying force. The insinuation was that I was trying to cheat.

You hit your dog with your keys? Go after it with a pocketknife? Sheesh.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Happens frequently & can be a decision of last resort to cure or control a creeping dog. I know a current successful FT handler who did this with one of his dogs for 3 trials in a row (both open & Am) several years ago. He told the judges prior to coming to the line his intentions (that if his dog crept he would not pick up the marks). He had been doing this with consistent success in training with no creeping only to have his trial-wise dog creep at trials. So he instituted the same practice at the 3 trials...and it worked. I think he had to do remedial work from time to time at a trial (maybe in the open) then run the Am. But it kept his dog guessing & kept the creeping under control. The dog retired an FC/AFC with several nat'ls run.

When judging the Jacksonville trial this spring we had another handler do the same thing.

Have never seen it as an effort to show-up the judges, but that could clearly be a misconduct issue if so. If the judges setup a valid test per the rules, IMO it would be very poor sportsmanship to not run the marks. If the test is not valid per the rules or considered dangerous, there is recourse under the rules for the handler.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

stonybrook said:


> Any judges here ever have a handler come up, watch the marks go down and then leash up their pooch and walk-off without picking up a bird (out of protest)?


Yep. And it was a beautiful thing to watch.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I've done it a handful of times for a creeping issue but never to show up judges. That is in bad taste IMO. If I saw something I flat out didn't want my dog to run I would just leave rather than go to the line to make a scene.


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## PennyRetrievers (Mar 29, 2013)

claimsadj said:


> I've done it a handful of times for a creeping issue but never to show up judges. That is in bad taste IMO. If I saw something I flat out didn't want my dog to run I would just leave rather than go to the line to make a scene.


That's an expensive way to teach your dog not to creep...


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## Gordon Schlichting (Nov 9, 2012)

Had it happen to me a few years ago. I was judging a master test, this was the second series. Handler came up with his more mature dog which also had several master passes and had made a trip or two to the Master Natioanl, I think it even had a plate or two. We had a water triple. Dog retrieved the go bird and the middle bird and was shipped to swim this channel to the long memory bird at the end of the channel. It was pretty much a straight old channel swim past a point where the short memory bird had been. The dog was swimming along and clearly making its way to the old fall it had just retrieved. My co-judge sat there astonished the handler was letting this happen. Rover just kept chugging away and up onto the point and out her nose down and began a hunt of the short memory bird. It wasn't just a quick wiff as it ran through this old fall which put her really far off line, but an honest to goodness dig it out hunt. Finally the handler put the whistle on and went to cast the dog away from the old fall. Several casts later and a few too many refusals the dog recovered the third fall. We judges immediatley offered our dismay that we would have to drop the dog as it clearly returned to an old fall and established a hunt, and even if we would have overlooked the return to the old fall, there were far too many cast refusals for us to accept in this series. Handler got pretty upset with us, made a few comments and stormed off. Later in teh same series the handler came back with their younger dog. As they approached the line he stated that if the dog even twitched he was going to pick it up. We called for the birds and I watched the dog sit as stoically and solidly as you would want a dog to sit. I called his number and he took out his leash and went to the honor. 

Later that evening at supper a member of the gallery told us judges this particular handler had returned to the gallery after we had dropped his older dog and was storming mad about being dropped and told everyone how he was going to get us back by picking up his second dog so we would have to pick up the marks ourselves. Like we two judges were going to have to strip down and swim across the water to pick up birds or something. DUH. We had throwers and all the marks were on land, so no big deal. More of an unjustice and disrespect to your co-handlers in the stake for wasting their time with taking your dog to the line and picking them up just to prove a point...a point lost on us I guess.

I can totally see setting up a dog who has a creeping issue if that is the way you want to do it but let the judges and marshall know that in advance so the next dog is ready and so forth. That is kind of expensive training session.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Yea but it's cheaper than ruining a nice dog because of your lack of discipline.


claimsadj said:


> I've done it a handful of times for a creeping issue but never to show up judges. That is in bad taste IMO. If I saw something I flat out didn't want my dog to run I would just leave rather than go to the line to make a scene.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Have seen cases like Dave said .
Also I think in the past a double staked dog, present on grounds, couldn't scratch from one stake and run the other. So they'd bring the crazy sob to line and pick him up hoping he'd be steady at the other stake.
I could be wrong about the scratchin thing but it came to mind.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Gordon Schlichting said:


> ....I called his number and he took out his leash and went to the honor.....


Wasn't there already a dog sitting at the honor?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Yep, usually Safety Issues for a certain dog, ex older or 3 legged dog andMud, unsafe water entry-exit, high strung dogs with water they can jump across, ditch running through the middle of a test, protruding pipe judges were warned about etc. People usually don't want to foot the vet bill for judges stupidity, or a $4 ribbon. Still they usually don't make it to the line unless they weren't there for the handlers meeting, where they could protest prior to start.

I once scratched all my dogs after an unpleasant judge incident but didn't feel the need to go to the line to do it .


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## blkpudel (Dec 19, 2010)

I have heard of many people doing this at agility trials to cure their creepy start line stays. If the dog values "the game" then being taken away from their "reward" seems to work for those that I know that have actually done it.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

As a judge I have seen it done for creeping and noise. As a handler I have scratched prior to going to the line for a safety issue.

Tim


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Had a handler do this maneuver recently in protest of another handler being dropped for talking to his dog after calling for the birds (bird #1 was flyer, handler blew duck call to start test, as soon as flyer station blew duck call, dog started to get antsy and handler commanded "Sit"). Co-judge and I informed him that he was out for a controlled break per the rules re: remaining silent after calling for birds. Second handler came up a number of dogs later, asked us why we dropped his buddy. We politely told him that it was due to a CB which is not allowed. He then came up, blew duck call, watched birds drop 1, 2, 3 then leashed his dog and walked off. Pretty small in my opinion. Not sure what point he was intending to make. Wasn't like it was a judgment call. The rules on this are very clear and the understanding of those rules should be blatantly clear to all involved I think.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

stonybrook said:


> ...Not sure what point he was intending to make. ...


Not your problem. Judges judge, handlers handle, dogs dog.

There ARE a few judges out there that are so bad that I would consider picking up instead of running. In fact, a few I wish I had done this rather than being a "good sport" at the expense of my dog. In a couple of cases because the tests were patently un-safe, in others just because they were un-sound tests with no point in finishing or not.
BUT
It's a whole lot easier to avoid entering - IF you know they're going to do it.

My "list" is short, but firm.


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## Jim Person (Jan 5, 2003)

Never watched marks and picked up dog to show up judges, but I have withdrawn from test and filed complaint with test committee and Orgs national office. Had a judge walk his dog right up in the face of working dog to see if dog was aggressive then on the water marks had you pull yourself out in the middle of small pond in deep water and run marks out of boat, this was swimming water pretty close to over your head or close too it and have dog pulled back in boat on each mark. I dealt with the dog in dog's face but running out of boat in deep water was a pretty unsafe and stupid thing to do..


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

PennyRetrievers said:


> That's an expensive way to teach your dog not to creep...


True, but it's the only way for sure to teach your dog that just because he knows he is at a test doesn't mean he can get away with that behavior. What other correction can you make in that situation?

I may run another JH test or two for the sole purpose of turning around and going back to the truck when he starts his heeling dance and tries to drag me in and out of the holding blinds - which he does nowhere else. If I don't get it under control in the test environment it's eventually going to cost me some entry fees anyway.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Not your problem. Judges judge, handlers handle, dogs dog.
> 
> There ARE a few judges out there that are so bad that I would consider picking up instead of running. In fact, a few I wish I had done this rather than being a "good sport" at the expense of my dog. In a couple of cases because the tests were patently un-safe, in others just because they were un-sound tests with no point in finishing or not.
> BUT
> ...


If you think the judges are bad enough to warrant making your "list", why enter in the first place?


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Here are some tests (over many years) I wish I had thanked the judges and walked away from:

Started Mark toward a busy highway.

Senior Trail toward a busy highway.

Water mark with one Over-Under and a third mark with an entry into a deadfall with potentially dangerous sticks.

Into-the-wind triple where there was equal access downwind (following a screwed up land series.)

Upland tests quartering into "blockers." (X n)

Upland with flush at the end a long trail.

Marks into 6 ft. cattails.

"No-see-em" water blind that was technical enough w/o a trick.

The ones that come to mind were either potentially unsafe or unfair to the dog (at the level he was at.)

Misteaks happen, judges only make my "list" with repeats.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

...... ..does ZERO good.............you could tell judges why if out of protest but that IS in poor taste and sportsmanship. Not saying that I have NEVER wanted to..... just don't see the point...better to let the dogs do the talking...


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Here are some tests (over many years) I wish I had thanked the judges and walked away from:
> 
> Started Mark toward a busy highway.
> 
> ...


Just guessing but you were probably the RD (commodore in charge so to speak) at at least a few of those unsafe and poorly designed tests. Odd that you wouldn't speak up for the benefit of your fellow handlers.


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## Brent Walls (Mar 15, 2009)

PennyRetrievers said:


> That's an expensive way to teach your dog not to creep...


Expensive on the frontside, but think of all the trials you get to stay in if it helps cure the problem.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Here are some tests (over many years) I wish I had thanked the judges and walked away from:
> 
> Started Mark toward a busy highway.
> 
> ...


I do not run hunt tests or trials so I have to ask what is the problem with marks into 6ft tall cattails? Seems like about the most common duck hunting situation.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

mngundog said:


> I do not run hunt tests or trials so I have to ask what is the problem with marks into 6ft tall cattails? Seems like about the most common duck hunting situation.


Once the dog reaches the area of the fall you can't see it to judge it.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

PennyRetrievers said:


> That's an expensive way to teach your dog not to creep...



with folk spending hundreds and hundreds teaching the dog how to be test wise.
the few spending two or three $85 entry fees to nip it in the bud ain't nothing
and it does make a lasting impresion on the wild dog that can smell when it is at a real test.
I can think of one or two handlers that should do it, and soon!


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> Once the dog reaches the area of the fall you can't see it to judge it.


Unless the cluster or area of cattails is the area of fall, in which you then know that if you can't see the dog, the only place they can be is in the area of fall.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

stonybrook said:


> Unless the cluster or area of cattails is the area of fall, in which you then know that if you can't see the dog, the only place they can be is in the area of fall.


and dog comes back with no bird, did Rover eat it or did a snaping turtle drag it under? does the dog get a re-run or a DQ? how do you judge what you can not see? 

I sold my sea monkeys and ordered my super X-ray spy glasses from the back of the comic book and still could not see through Molly MiniVans blouse!!


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

In the early years of AKC HT they would do just that. As a matter of fact, I have an old poloroid picture of my dog entering a huge patch of cattails down around Sarasota, FL. For reasons stated above, and the obvious hazards this practice might have in the Southeast, the practice didn't last long. In hunting down here, if a bird sails into the cattails, I will go look for it but won't send the dog.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Interesting. Up here it is pretty much the exact opposite. I don't want to think about how many birds my hunting partners and I would've lost over the years had we not had dogs that could get into the cattails and find downed game (not to mention all the roosters we'd have never seen and shot had the dogs not ventured into those same cattails).

Back to the original intention of this thread, I just think that for someone to come up to the line knowing they are only going to waste the club's resources and everyone's time by watching the birds fall and then walking off is very poor sportsmanship. I have no issue with someone deciding not to run a test, for various reasons, but to demonstrate that level of character, walking off, is pretty lowly in my opinion.


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

Taking your dog off of the line is an option. I can't think of an option that is any less effective though. The judges have already made up their minds that this is a good set up.

Try this option: After somebody volunteers to run the test dog, simply tell the judges that you need to scratch #7 because you can't risk another ACL injury in that mud, or my dog is too old to run through those rocks, or the broken limbs in the tall grass. Tell the Marshall to note in the secretary's report as to why you scratched.

If you think it's a stupid test: 5 points, are 5 points! Somebody's going to get them.

J.O.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Originally Posted by claimsadj 
I've done it a handful of times for a creeping issue but never to show up judges. That is in bad taste IMO. If I saw something I flat out didn't want my dog to run I would just leave rather than go to the line to make a scene.



PennyRetrievers said:


> That's an expensive way to teach your dog not to creep...


Not as expensive as having it happen every time you go to the line, if the dog is good in training and creeping at the show then you may need to consider some expensive lessons to let him know and get it under control.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

This is a great thread.

On the one hand I have worried about my dog's safety on some setups, on the other hand I think I am over cautious. 

As a newb, I tend to defer to more experienced people like judges. 

I have one of those dogs that always tries to leap from one bank to the next, scares me bad sometimes. If I see something like this in a test, I will be less reluctant to speak up, and walk away if my dog's safety is in doubt.


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## Cedarswamp (Apr 29, 2008)

For a creeper, one getting sticky, club/group training days aren't "real" to a seasoned dog...only the "real" day will work. I've seen it done for one little whimper (dog had been being noisy and was headed to the Grand).


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Showing up the judges.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

stonybrook said:


> Back to the original intention of this thread, I just think that for someone to come up to the line knowing they are only going to waste the club's resources and everyone's time by watching the birds fall and then walking off is very poor sportsmanship. I have no issue with someone deciding not to run a test, for various reasons, but to demonstrate that level of character, walking off, is pretty lowly in my opinion.


I have seen it done for a variety of reasons--even saw one time where several handlers did it. No big deal in my book. It doesn't really affect the club much--no more than a 'no bird' or a break--and a handler can scratch whenever they want. If it is a big deal for the club, perhaps they should look into the reasons a handler or handlers feel the need to do such a thing.

Not exactly the same thing, but my favorite instance was when a friend was retiring his dog. After years of making the dog steady, as soon as the flyer was shot, he didn't wait and sent his dog for it. The whole gallery applauded and even the judges thought it was fitting.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Walk off was do to the handler trainer walking off because judges called one of his clients dogs for a break a few dogs previous. You had to blow the duck call a couple of times to start the trial. Rookie handler did and quietly said sit. Dog ran a perfect water triple and had a near perfect trial all weekend. Trainer that walked off to prove a point to the judges was that he disagreed with their call.His point as also a judge is we as judges are here to judge the dog and should not have disquailified the dog on that minor infraction. Again up to that point the dog was flawless and so was the handler. Point is also made that we need to keep people interested in the sport.I am also a rookie at this game with a 16 month old lab that is being trained. I joined the club in Saulk Rapids and actively participated in their test this last winter. Had a lot of fun. Not sure what to think about the above. I also train with the walk off trainer and I gained a lot of respect for him that day. He handled himself very professionaly and showed the judges no disrespect. Interesting I also atteneded a judging seminar this past winter at my club that was conducted by AKC. The instructor we had I am pretty sure would have not called that a controled break and pulled the handler off to the side and corrected his mistake. He really drove home the point that as judges we are there to judge the dog.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

welcome to rtf William.
your saying this hole thread, and the walk off in question was to protest a handler being dropped for talking after he called for the birds?????


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

said sit. very quietly. Nervouse and made a mistake.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

william halfrich said:


> Walk off was do to the handler trainer walking off because judges call one of his clients dogs for a break a few dogs previous. ... I also train with the walk off trainer and I gained a lot of respect for him that day. He handled himself very professionaly and showed the judges the respect they are due.


Yeah, bring it, Aretha: R-E-S-P-E-C-T. How about an analogy? My friend gets ticketed for jaywalking and it burns me up because, you know, everybody does it, but nobody ever does anything _*about*_ it. Until my friend gets ticketed, and I'm p*ssed. So I decide to tell that mean old "Walk/Don't Walk" sign where to shove it, and do my own "walk-off" into the traffic. And the nice big Freightliner pays me the respect I'm due just as I see it bearing down on me. And my last thought is, "That was some kind of gallant protest I just made, weren't it?"

MG


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

william halfrich said:


> I also train with the walk off trainer and I gained a lot of respect for him that day. He handled himself very professionaly and showed the judges the respect they are due.


If this occurred at an AKC Hunting Test for Retrievers, the Regulations and Guidelines are very clear about saying anything to the dog once the birds are called for:

Chapter 4

*Section 6. *In marking situations, a handler shall not line a dog in the direction of any fall or gun station until all falls are down.
Once all marks are down and the handler/dog has been released by the judges, a handler may give the dog a line in the direction of any or all falls, provided that such lining is accomplished briskly and precisely. Conspicuously intensive lining suggests a weak marking ability and the dog must be scored low in Marking.

*The handler of the working dog shall remain silent from the time handler signals for the first bird to be thrown until the Judges release the dog. **(Bold and coloring for emphasis made by me)*
The handler of the honoring dog may speak quietly to the honoring dog provided the handler does not interfere with other handlers, the working dog(s) or the Judges.
*Note: *While speaking quietly to the honoring dog is allowed, threatening gestures or any form of intimidation is not acceptable and shall not be allowed by the Judges. 

*******

The Regulations and Guidelines do not say “should”, they clearly state “shall”. No getting around that directive. Judges were completely correct in dropping the dog for the handler’s error.

I’m not sure why you would gain respect for a professional trainer who was ignoring the Regulations and Guidelines. A pro should be mentoring his clients to follow the rules, not break them.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

crackerd said:


> Yeah, bring it, Aretha: R-E-S-P-E-C-T. How about an analogy? My friend gets ticketed for jaywalking and it burns me up because, you know, everybody does it, but nobody ever does anything _*about*_ it. Until my friend gets ticketed, and I'm p*ssed. So I decide to tell that mean old "Walk/Don't Walk" sign where to shove it, and do my own "walk-off" into the traffic. And the nice big Freightliner pays me the respect I'm due just as I see it bearing down on me. And my last thought is, "That was some kind of gallant protest I just made, weren't it?"
> 
> 
> MG


Was the traffic sign your client? Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if you said "Yes"...


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

Vicky Trainor said:


> If this occurred at an AKC Hunting Test for Retrievers, the Regulations and Guidelines are very clear about saying anything to the dog once the birds are called for:
> 
> Chapter 4
> 
> ...


Well said! A hunt test is more than just judging a dog do the work. The dog and handler are part of a team, and dogs get dropped every weekend because a handler makes a boneheaded mistake...can't blame anyone else but the handler. I guess its all part of the "its someone else's fault" mentality this country has, and probably why they don't keep score in little league baseball for fear of hurting someone's feelings...


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

This is crazy. Does this stuff really happen? It all seems pretty petty to me, what's the point? To make the judges feel bad? I have seen a lot of crazy test, extreme breaking test, over-under's, flower pots, tricky unfair test, etc, but unless I see some unsafe aspect to the test, I'll keep my mouth shut and give it a shot. If you see something that you believe is unsafe, the time to deal with it is when we are all up there getting ready to watch the test dog. Believe me, Judges don't want to hurt a dog and if they missed something that could, they will happily deal with it.

I don't know about hunt test, but in AKC field trials there are rules dealing with misconduct, a lot of what has been written here could easily be considered misconduct.

John


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## Darin Westphal (Feb 24, 2005)

I just hope that if the pro made a protest at the expense of my dog that he'd at least find the decency to not charge me for a handlers fee AND to take my entry fee for the dog off my next months training bill......you feel like you have to protest go for it...but it'd better not be at the expense of my dog. 

And if you gained respect for him for trying to say that the judges should have ignored a rule that's been known about since the dawn of time....that's on you.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Darin Westphal said:


> I just hope that if the pro made a protest at the expense of my dog that he'd at least find the decency to not charge me for a handlers fee AND to take my entry fee for the dog off my next months training bill......you feel like you have to protest go for it...but it'd better not be at the expense of my dog.
> 
> And if you gained respect for him for trying to say that the judges should have ignored a rule that's been known about since the dawn of time....that's on you.


Ditto about 500x.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

william halfrich said:


> Walk off was do to the handler trainer walking off because judges call one of his clients dogs for a break a few dogs previous. You had to blow the duck call a couple of times to start the trial. Rookie handler did and quietly said sit. *Dog ran a perfect water triple* and had a near perfect trial all weekend. Trainer that walked off to prove a point to the judges that he disagreed with their call.His point as also a judge is we as judges are here to judge the dog and should not have disquailified the dog on that minor infraction. Again up to that point the dog was flawless and so was the handler. Point is also made that we need to keep people interested in the sport and this left a very bad taste in the the mouths by many.I am also a rookie at this game with a 16 month old lab that is being trained. I joined the club in Saul Rapids and actively participated in their test this last winter. Had a lot of fun. Not sure what to think about the above. I also train with the walk off trainer and I gained a lot of respect for him that day. He handled himself very professionaly and showed the judges the respect they are due.


Dog running a water triple? We're not talking minor stakes, then. It's too bad that handler screwed up, but if it were a MH test, the rules are quite clear in AKC.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

william halfrich said:


> said sit. very quietly. Nervouse and made a mistake.


and I have made the same one.
and I got dropped.
and nobody protested.
and if they had 
I would have walloped um up side of the head.
it ain't the judges fault.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> I don't know about hunt test, but in AKC field trials there are rules dealing with misconduct, a lot of what has been written here could easily be considered misconduct.
> 
> John


It could, but you would never prove it. Handler would just say he scratched his dog.

As far as dropping the person for speaking after the handler called for the birds, could have been the nicest, most helpful judges in the world but their hands were tied. Similar to a no go on a blind. I have seen many cases where it was obvious that the dog was confused about whether it was sent on a blind, but the rules don't allow for judges to call it confusion, so dog is out. I have seen a lot of judges be douches and drop people for minor things that few would ever drop a person for, but this is cut and dried.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

mitty said:


> Dog running a water triple? We're not talking minor stakes, then. It's too bad that handler screwed up, but if it were a MH test, the rules are quite clear in AKC.


Umm, we don't use duck calls in field trials.

The good news is, Vicky trotted out the AKC rule book in an effort to get the tone-deaf, naive and gullible (the ol' trifecta for personality traits you really don't want to summon when commenting on retriever events) to stop yammering on.

The bad news is - and I'm not referring to you, Renee - they yammer on anyhow. Still, they may have run _*a*_ derby or _*a*_ junior hunt test, so perhaps there's the entitlement to their yammering...

MG


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

william halfrich said:


> Walk off was do to the handler trainer walking off because judges called one of his clients dogs for a break a few dogs previous. You had to blow the duck call a couple of times to start the trial. Rookie handler did and quietly said sit. Dog ran a perfect water triple and had a near perfect trial all weekend. Trainer that walked off to prove a point to the judges was that he disagreed with their call.His point as also a judge is we as judges are here to judge the dog and should not have disquailified the dog on that minor infraction. Again up to that point the dog was flawless and so was the handler. Point is also made that we need to keep people interested in the sport.I am also a rookie at this game with a 16 month old lab that is being trained. I joined the club in Saulk Rapids and actively participated in their test this last winter. Had a lot of fun. Not sure what to think about the above. I also train with the walk off trainer and I gained a lot of respect for him that day. He handled himself very professionaly and showed the judges no disrespect. Interesting I also atteneded a judging seminar thai past winter at my club that was conducted by AKC. The instructor we had I am pretty sure would have not called that a controled break and pulled the handler off to the side and corrected his mistake. He really drove home the point that as judges we are there to judge the dog.


First of all welcome to the sport, I hope you have a lot of fun as you and your dog progress in hunt test. That said I really don't believe he drove any point home to the judges, they just upheld a written rule. As a judge in that position I would just shake my head and call for the next dog. I feel for the rooky handler who made the nervous mistake, but that's why we have the Junior stake, to give beginning handlers time on line to make mistakes and learn without being dropped. When a handler steps up to the line in a major stake, newbie or old pro, the standards are high and everybody running expects them to be upheld by the judges.

John


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> *It could, but you would never prove it. Handler would just say he scratched his dog.*
> 
> As far as dropping the person for speaking after the handler called for the birds, could have been the nicest, most helpful judges in the world but their hands were tied. Similar to a no go on a blind. I have seen many cases where it was obvious that the dog was confused about whether it was sent on a blind, but the rules don't allow for judges to call it confusion, so dog is out. I have seen a lot of judges be douches and drop people for minor things that few would ever drop a person for, but this is cut and dried.


Pretty strange way to scratch. Probably just going through the process of calling him on it and getting the committee would send a message that this isn't the proper way to scratch your dog.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

crackerd said:


> Umm, we don't use duck calls in field trials.
> 
> The good news is, Vicky trotted out the AKC rule book in an effort to get the tone-deaf, naive and gullible (the ol' trifecta for personality traits you really don't want to summon when commenting on retriever events) to stop yammering on.
> 
> ...




There are other venues besides AKC. I have run exactly one AKC HT but watched quite a few, and in them the gunners used the duck calls, not the handlers. So maybe it is not an AKC test, in which case the rules quoted may not apply. 

OTOH in the other venues maybe they are allowed to talk to their dog, and the handler blows the duck call as described here. If this is the case, then the scenario is not cut and dried.

If it were a junior test, a judge might be a little more forgiving but if it is a MH test then a judge might be less forgiving. 

Edit: My point is, if a newbie handler wants to use inexperience as an excuse, maybe he ought to start at the JH level and work his way up.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

crackerd said:


> we don't use duck calls in field trials.
> 
> ...
> 
> MG


one of the gunners at our trial a few years ago, as a hoot. blew his duck call before they tossed the bird for the test dog. The judges loved it and had him do it for every dog. Gosh the handlers in the gallery were miffed!!!!


mitty said:


> I have run exactly one AKC HT but watched quite a few, and in them the gunners used the duck calls, not the handlers..


I have started the action at an akc hunt test as a handler by blowing my duck call. Handler called, live gun station called back.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

AKC MH test.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> Pretty strange way to scratch. Probably just going through the process of calling him on it and getting the committee would send a message that this isn't the proper way to scratch your dog.


I guess I just have seen enough folks scratch their dogs at the line that it doesn't bother me one way or another. In fact, I have done it when it had nothing to do with a protest of any sort. Just one of those things that happens. Everyone is outraged about how this takes resources away from the club when someone does this. I don't agree, but it certainly is a heck of a lot easier on the club than pulling the HT committee from whatever it is they are doing to hold a misconduct hearing. Who knows what would happen. I can't see that I would vote that this behavior--even if the handler admitted he did it--rose to the level of abusing or harassing the judges or officials. I see far worse behavior at the start of every Amateur I have ever marshaled


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

mitty said:


> There are other venues besides AKC. I have run exactly one AKC HT but watched quite a few, and in them the gunners used the duck calls, not the handlers. So maybe it is not an AKC test, in which case the rules quoted may not apply.
> 
> OTOH in the other venues maybe they are allowed to talk to their dog, and the handler blows the duck call as described here. If this is the case, then the scenario is not cut and dried.
> 
> ...



Renee,
I have judged and run in many AKC Hunting Tests where the handler has used the duck call. Even happened once here in Maryland where the judges had the Junior test handlers blow a duck call. (I wasn't too fond of that as a handler, but it is clearly allowable)


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## RockyDog (Nov 18, 2008)

Using duck calls to start the test is not that uncommon around here, and should not come as a surprise to anyone running at the Master level.

Getting back to the original situation in this thread, the handler was guilty of a serious handler fault, that per the AKC regulations was grounds for a DQ. The rulebook is very clear on this if you look at the Classification of Faults section at the back of the book:

Serious Handler Faults: Serious faults listed cover all those instances where the Standard describes conduct of the handler which in and of itself justifies elimination from the stake.
1. Lining a dog in marking situations – in the direction of any fall or any gun station before all the falls are down. 
2. Talking to the working dog – the handler must remain silent from the time the handler signals for the first bird to be thrown until the judges release the dog.​
In this case, the judges had no choice but to DQ the handler, regardless of the quality work the dog had been doing. The second handler needs to read the rule book -- there was no justification for his action.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Ok, I'm off to attach duck caller to whistle lanyard....


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> I guess I just have seen enough folks scratch their dogs at the line that it doesn't bother me one way or another. In fact, I have done it when it had nothing to do with a protest of any sort. Just one of those things that happens. Everyone is outraged about how this takes resources away from the club when someone does this. I don't agree, but it certainly is a heck of a lot easier on the club than pulling the HT committee from whatever it is they are doing to hold a misconduct hearing. Who knows what would happen. I can't see that I would vote that this behavior--even if the handler admitted he did it--rose to the level of abusing or harassing the judges or officials. I see far worse behavior at the start of every Amateur I have ever marshaled


I agree that trying to make some dramatic point by doing the "walk off" is more stupid than misconduct and as a judge I would care less. As for scratching your dog on line, that seems pretty weird. I guess maybe if you noticed your dog limping as you heeled him to the line, that could happen, but otherwise leave the dog on the truck and approach the marshal on the side to let him or her know you need to scratch and why.

John


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

mitty said:


> Ok, I'm off to attach duck caller to whistle lanyard....


I'd like to see you try!!!!










most of us have a dog whistle on our duck call lanyard already


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

Thank you John that is why I am going to concentrate on the Junior, get the dog and me through that so I have a chance. I do understand and LOT OF GOOD POINTS HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP. As I move forward with my dog I am sure I will experience a lot of situations that cause a lot of conversations. I understand that if a rookie football player steps out of bounds he is out of bounds. I also understand when you are testing Master dog the word Master means you and your dog are being tested at the highest stakes.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

william halfrich said:


> Thank you John that is why I am going to concentrate on the Junior, get the dog and me through that so I have a chance. I do understand and LOT OF GOOD POINTS HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP. As I move forward with my dog I am sure I will experience a lot of situations that cause a lot of conversations. I understand that if a rookie football player steps out of bounds he is out of bounds. I also understand when you are testing Master dog the word Master means you and your dog are being tested at the highest stakes.


Hopefully, the pro involved will gain respect for you in understanding the regulations and guidelines!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

william halfrich said:


> Thank you John that is why I am going to concentrate on the Junior, get the dog and me through that so I have a chance. I do understand and LOT OF GOOD POINTS HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP. As I move forward with my dog I am sure I will experience a lot of situations that cause a lot of conversations. I understand that if a rookie football player steps out of bounds he is out of bounds. I also understand when you are testing Master dog the word Master means you and your dog are being tested at the highest stakes.


That's it exactly. 

Good luck with your dog, I think the most fun I ever had was taking my first dog up through the ranks from Junior to Senior and finally Master. We both learned as we went and became a strong, tightly bonded team over time.


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## william halfrich (May 19, 2013)

I am really excited and have a lot to learn. The dog is way ahead of me on the learning curve. Take care and I hope we cross paths someday at a hunt test.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

If I thought a test was unsafe, I would file a protest with FTC, and await a ruling. If they did not change the test, I would scratch.
If I thought a test was stupid, I might run it - and I might scratch. But, I wouldn't go to the line and scratch. To me, that is making a unnecessary display


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

william halfrich said:


> Thank you John that is why I am going to concentrate on the Junior, get the dog and me through that so I have a chance. I do understand and LOT OF GOOD POINTS HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP. As I move forward with my dog I am sure I will experience a lot of situations that cause a lot of conversations. I understand that if a rookie football player steps out of bounds he is out of bounds. I also understand when you are testing Master dog the word Master means you and your dog are being tested at the highest stakes.


That is a good attitude to have! 

You have already surpassed a goodly number of veteran handlers in terms of maturity.

Good luck & have fun.

JS


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

JS said:


> That is a good attitude to have!
> 
> You have already surpassed a goodly number of veteran handlers in terms of maturity.
> 
> ...


I was going to say the same thing. You can tell when somebody has their head screwed on right. I don't think we have to worry about Mr. Halfrich as far as being a future asset to our sport.


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

I remember one time it was Saturday I had ran the land marks in the open 6 dogs left from friday, the land blind, and the water blind, and they were taking 8 dogs to the last series and it was 92 degrees. I was to run the am and it was in the bowl at the canal I walked to the line and told the judges what I was doing and the reason I needed all the dog I could have for the last series in the open. Glad I did think we got 2nd that weekend. The judges understood the reason while I watched the marks said no bird to my dog and walked off line. When its hot do whatever you have to do to preserve your dog no shame in trying to do the right thing for your dog's health. I had a dog go over the hill this past weekend on the last mark of a quad he might have been just out of sight I counted to 10 and picked up after the dog had 3 almost perfect marks. It was hot and not worth taking a chance on my dog's health.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

I have had handlers tell me before the test that they plan to pick the dog up after the marks before sending him (to correct creeping, vocalization, etc.). I don't have a problem with this if there is no honor dog involved. However, an honor dog needs to see multiple marks and a dog sent before being released, so I will ask the handler to wait until there is not an honor.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Up until the recent past, If you were on the grounds, you had to run your dog , unless there was a plausible mitigating reason for not doing so (The safety and/or health of your dog was one of these reasons ). ......

Under the rules in place at that time you could not, not run one test, then simply run either that test with another dog, or another test with either that or a different dog. 

It was in that context that the handler would ASK the judge for permission to "pick up "the dog , and when told by the Judges that they may do so, would leave the line with the dog.

IMHO Protests such as those described herein were then and still are in violation, and at the very least, would, depending on the judge, open the handler up to problematic outcomes.

john


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

> This is crazy. Does this stuff really happen? It all seems pretty petty to me, what's the point? To make the judges feel bad?


Exactly! Maybe these dog games don't matter that much to me...Certainly not enough for me to make a giant spectacle out of myself....What a waste of everyones time...Including your own.

If you're going to walk off for a "training" purpose, thats cool...But for some passive aggresssive type of protest???BOOOO You stink....Whats next hand cuffing yourself to the holding blind? Lighting yourself on fire???


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

If it was the for the fact that it was the Fall Grand i would have pulled my dog from the water set up in the mud! "mudzilla"!!!! Was actually affraid that my dog was going to hurt himself in that crap!!! Couple dogs were hurt that week in that stuff!! There would have been a lot of scratches from that test if it was a weekend test!


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