# From a rookie: Is is possible to buy a dual purpose lab? (Enlish looking that hunts?



## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Are there breeders out there who have English looking dogs that hunt some and are relatively quiet? He would need "full registration" too.

Thanks for helping a new to this rookie, but not new to dogs and hunting.


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

Think this might be what you are talking about.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...f-Diamond-E-The-Video&highlight=amazing+grace

To answer your question, there are a lot of good breeders out there that have the British/English labs with great working and confirmation lines.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks much ndk. Great link. how would I look for such breeders? Post on this site?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?81748-SHR-Cabbie-Lou&highlight=Cabbie+Lou


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## Bob Barnett (Feb 21, 2004)

I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for. There are a lot of good British lab breeders. However, I suspect you are wanting an English lab that looks more like a show dog. Can you explain better what you are looking for? These are British Field Trial recommendations. However they are not English Show dogs. 

British Breeders
Duckhill Kennels- look at the Cuckavalda lines and anything out of Tibea or Viceroy

Working Mans- anything from Cuckavalda or Mediterranean Blue

Double T- don't know their lines but they have a great reputation. Their stud dog Spud has thrown some great pups.

Wildrose- call Cathy Stewart at the kennel and she will help you decide which litter would fit your needs.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I don't know much about English looking Labs but I can give you good advice. Make sure that there is "Hunt" in the background i.e. FT, HT, or other evidence of hunting. And if you can, get to see the parents.


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

Keep an eye on the classified section of this sight as well. Most breeders who really focus on the British style labs will call that out when describing the parents and litter. As mentioned before, pay close attention to the pedigree of the parents, look for fiedl/hunting titles in the backgrounds of the dogs. Lastly, definately see the parents before making a decision.

Good luck.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Check out OTCH AFTCH CH makaila telkwa teit MH WCX QFTR CGN. I have seen one of the pups, very nice.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Little english girls can do it too.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

Absolutely! Where are you located? Full registration may be a deal breaker though, why do you need it?


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Yup

Might be easier to find some chicken teeth though.

Brithish Lab my a**e regards

Bubba


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## Spartazoo (Sep 28, 2011)

Labrador terminology

English = Bench (show)

American = Field 

We have a Kerrybrook dog that crosses the two and we LOVE him! Look them up on Facebook. Chris just posted a number of dogs that are CH/MH dogs with a number of them out of his lines. Dog in my avatar is our Kerrybrook dog at 10 months.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Mallard1 said:


> Are there breeders out there who have English looking dogs that hunt some and are relatively quiet? He would need "full registration" too.
> 
> Thanks for helping a new to this rookie, but not new to dogs and hunting.


Mallard1...I hope you are not fishing....

The answer to your question is.....Depends....If that is what you are really looking for.

BJ...Who has swallow a hook more than once.


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## Labs a mundo (Mar 20, 2009)

mitty said:


> Check out OTCH AFTCH CH makaila telkwa teit MH WCX QFTR CGN. I have seen one of the pups, very nice.


Sadly, Teit passed away last year. Not sure if Nolan Nelkenbecher has any frozen semen.
He was a heck of a dog and terribly missed by Karen and Nolan.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

I HIGHLY recommend you watch this video!! 

http://youtu.be/--7iMXVqKaw


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Talk to Windycanyon on RTF. She has some beautiful girls and breeds for dogs with great conformation/looks and the ability to get it done in the field. Agreed that the full registration part will likely be a challenge no matter where you go for a pup though.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Mallard1 said:


> Are there breeders out there who have English looking dogs that hunt some and are relatively quiet? He would need "full registration" too.
> 
> Thanks for helping a new to this rookie, but not new to dogs and hunting.


Yup,,, I breed them all the time. A good looking dog that's easy to live with and easy to train.








A master hunter that's soon to be a champion.








All master hunters and they are hunted








You get the idea.....

Angie


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

show off.....


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Angie,

Nice looking dogs.

PS, I cringe a little bit when I see the American Flag improperly displayed. For me it is not the same thing as the grammar police.

Jim


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

T-Pines said:


> PS, I cringe a little bit when I see the American Flag improperly displayed.
> 
> Jim


Me Too.............


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Billie said:


> show off.....


LOL!!! If I had hung the flag I would have done it correctly.

Angie


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## Shooter94 (Jun 28, 2012)

It's been a very long time since a "show" Lab has been a top performer in the field. Maybe there is a reason for that. Let the chunky dogs for the show ring and find a nice, tall athlete for the field.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Here's one and no slouch when it comes to the field. Be sure to read.

http://www.customfishing.com/kona.htm


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Yes, this is exactly what I am talking about!! Kona looks like a good one!


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Mallard1 said:


> Yes, this is exactly what I am talking about!! Kona looks like a good one!


He's headed to the MN.


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## cjr (Oct 21, 2010)

You may also want to look at Vince. I've never seen him in person but I've heard good things.

http://www.kerrybrooksvince.com/


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Kenny Girot's Vince is a fine dog, whether you want show or field. I have trained with him, and judged him in a couple of HT venues.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Shooter94 said:


> It's been a very long time since a "show" Lab has been a top performer in the field. Maybe there is a reason for that. Let the chunky dogs for the show ring and find a nice, tall athlete for the field.


Define "top performer" in relation to the breed standard.

Angie


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Angie has a good point. I would be interested in that answer.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Get a Chesapeake


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Happy, well said. They are beautiful dogs. How are they when not hunting? Lay by the fire, or take a slow walk around the block, or, is the switch on all the time? How about shedding - pretty much like a lab?

Just never been around them much, but I know those who have them love them.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Labs shed hair year round. Chessies usually blow coat twice a year. (it all comes out) You can strip their coats and sweep the floors every day for about a week or two and your done for a while. Contrary to popular rumor, Chessies typically only smell as bad as their surroundings. Keep them on clean, regularly washed bedding and they'll smell fine. Keep them on an old piece of carpet under the porch steps..... You see where I'm going with it. Lab hair penetrates just about everything it touches. Gets into couches, car seats and is hard to get out. Chessie hair, being a little wavy tends to stick to itself and easily vacuums off objects around the house. Every one I've been around has an off switch. 

You do have to be ready for a slightly different attitude with a Chessie. You make mistakes in training, they don't forget or forgive easily.


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

metalone67 said:


> Here's one and no slouch when it comes to the field. Be sure to read.
> 
> http://www.customfishing.com/kona.htm


I have the pleasure of training with Nicole and Kona from time to time, He's a good boy.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

Kona is lovely! Nice length of leg kept and shown at a nice weight in the pics!


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## kims (Jan 9, 2010)

Hi,
Besides the folks that have already responded, check out this link. http://www.masterlabradors.com/chgoosemh.html


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

kims said:


> Hi,
> Besides the folks that have already responded, check out this link. http://www.masterlabradors.com/chgoosemh.html


You beat me to it! LOL Edna Schenck leads our local training group and I can vouch for the fact that all of her dogs show, test, and hunt, and have wonderful dispositions.


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## Susan (Jun 10, 2003)

I trained with Edna when she had Macy back in California. She is very committed to a working conformation type lab. And she is great to work with. I have always recommended her to those looking for this type of dog and also highly recommend our very own Angie B.
--Susan


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

Windy canyon has a litter sired by Goose coming up.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Mallard1 said:


> Angie has a good point. I would be interested in that answer.


And here it is from the breed standard:

General Appearance—
The Labrador Retriever is a strongly built, medium-sized, short coupled
dog possessing a sound, athletic, well-balanced conformation
that enables it to function as a retrieving gun dog; the substance and
soundness to hunt waterfowl or upland game for long hours under difficult
conditions; the character and quality to win in the show ring; and
the temperament to be a family companion. Physical features and mental
characteristics should denote a dog bred to perform as an efficient
retriever of game with a stable temperament suitable for a variety of
pursuits beyond the hunting environment.
The most distinguishing characteristics of the Labrador Retriever
are its short, dense, weather resistant coat; an “otter” tail; a clean-cut
head with broad back-skull and moderate stop; powerful jaws; and its
“kind,” friendly eyes, expressing character, intelligence and good temperament.
Above all, the Labrador Retriever must be well balanced, enabling
it to move in the show ring or work in the field with little or no effort.
The typical Labrador possesses style and quality without over refinement,
and substance without lumber or cloddiness. The Labrador Retriever is bred primarily as a working gun dog; structure and soundness is of great importance.

Angie


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Angie B said:


> And here it is from the breed standard:
> 
> General Appearance—
> The Labrador Retriever is a strongly built, medium-sized, short coupled
> ...


Dang straight, but are these the dogs that win in the show ring?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Yes they are Howard!  I think what you're thinking of when you say show dogs is the "specials". They mostly are competed at breed club specialties. They have morphed as much away from the standard as field trial dogs have. All arounders, as the more moderate dogs are called, win at all breed club shows all the time. See my first photo example.

Angie


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

If dual purpose you mean by using it's nose and winning shows?
Then Yes! I usually test that first part! before this one gained acclaim in the ring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIXGFEDnP0g


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## Rick Vaughan (Sep 4, 2012)

Gracie is one in a million...I am proud to call Wally and Angie friends and what a line of yellow dogs they have. Gracie has the looks, drive, personality and so many of us want in a dog...but they also have Roxie, Dixie, Thorne, and Duchess. The combination of good training and good looking dogs, you couldn't ask for anything more!


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Great dogs. I have to learn more about them. Not quite clear: who is in California now with these types of dogs?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

mountaindogs said:


> Windy canyon has a litter sired by Goose coming up.


True story.  I expect this breeding to happen sometime this month but have to say, the wait list is long and no, I don't sell on Full reg automatically to anyone I don't know well. 

I guess I'd have to ask too, why Full reg is needed? 

The only thing a limited reg can't do currently in AKC is show in the ring and have registerable offspring. I think the first part of that is ridiculous, personally, and have petitioned AKC to rethink that, but we shall see (anyone feeling the same, pls direct your comments to the AKC Director of Events Operations). For some reason they equate "show" dogs as earning that worthiness to breed automatically and of course we all know that isn't true. Anne


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Now you see I got a friend with rather nice English or British lab, however she looks nothing like this particular _English _type, looks just like any other field Lab I've ever seen. Really nice hunting dog, plays well in the HT games. While she may bark with an English accent; and prefer Tea to Coffee. I had to check her pedigree, to verify this European heritage thing. AKC registration only her, however United kingdom Kennel Club pedigree, more British FTCHs in red than you can shake a stick at. Probably the only true English Lab, I've ever seen. Anything other than that is just Bench verses. Field. and a marketing ploy. So to the OP the only place you can really get a True English lab that hunts, is to import it from England. And if a hunting English lab is your game, better have a couple of very close personal connections across the pond, they don't export their pups very often. I think my friend had to beg a British uncle for years at reunions before he relented, to let him buy a pup, with a pretty hefty price tag, excluding the delivery fee


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> True story.  I expect this breeding to happen sometime this month but have to say, the wait list is long and no, I don't sell on Full reg automatically to anyone I don't know well.
> 
> I guess I'd have to ask too, why Full reg is needed?
> 
> The only thing a limited reg can't do currently in AKC is show in the ring and have registerable offspring. I think the first part of that is ridiculous, personally, and have petitioned AKC to rethink that, but we shall see (anyone feeling the same, pls direct your comments to the AKC Director of Events Operations). For some reason they equate "show" dogs as earning that worthiness to breed automatically and of course we all know that isn't true. Anne



I would never pay a premium price for anything that had someone elses' name on it. It would be like paying $500,000 for a time share condo. Why pay for a time share when you can own one outright and never have strangers sleeping in your bed or, trying to re-arrange your kitchen once every 6 months?


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## AllAroundLab (Dec 21, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I would never pay a premium price for anything that had someone elses' name on it. It would be like paying $500,000 for a time share condo. Why pay for a time share when you can own one outright and never have strangers sleeping in your bed or, trying to re-arrange your kitchen once every 6 months?


Limited registration doesn't result in anyone's name but yours being on the registration papers. Unless you plan to breed or show, limited status will have no impact on the dog or who controls the dog. Since the breeder does not end up with any sort of ownership interest just because the dog's registration type is of the no showing/no breeding kind, I find your analogy quite inaccurate. Wouldn't you hate to turn people against buying a puppy on limited registration just because they now assume that it is equivalent to a time share?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

AllAroundLab said:


> Limited registration doesn't result in anyone's name but yours being on the registration papers. Unless you plan to breed or show, limited status will have no impact on the dog or who controls the dog. Since the breeder does not end up with any sort of ownership interest just because the dog's registration type is of the no showing/no breeding kind, I find your analogy quite inaccurate. Wouldn't you hate to turn people against buying a puppy on limited registration just because they now assume that it is equivalent to a time share?


If I pay a premium price, I want to be able to change my mind without someone elses' approval. If I want to paint the bathroom blue in two years because I don't like yellow anymore, I'm going to paint it blue. I'd love to turn people away from buying a puppy on limited registration unless they paid 1/2 price of those who got full registration from the same litter. That would be worth limited registration.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> If I pay a premium price, I want to be able to change my mind without someone elses' approval. If I want to paint the bathroom blue in two years because I don't like yellow anymore, I'm going to paint it blue. I'd love to turn people away from buying a puppy on limited registration unless they paid 1/2 price of those who got full registration from the same litter. That would be worth limited registration.


Totally AGREE


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

I completely agree, also. I have owned horses for years and the idea that someone else could decide whether I could show or breed those horses is out of the question for me. 

If I buy a dog, I would want it to be mine and the decisions mine.

I admit to being a newbie, but limited registration makes no sense to me. Well said, Happy.

No offense to those who sell this way, it just doesn't seem fair to me. Pay for it, but can't use it the way you want.


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## AllAroundLab (Dec 21, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> If I pay a premium price, I want to be able to change my mind without someone elses' approval. If I want to paint the bathroom blue in two years because I don't like yellow anymore, I'm going to paint it blue. I'd love to turn people away from buying a puppy on limited registration unless they paid 1/2 price of those who got full registration from the same litter. That would be worth limited registration.


I feel compelled to present the other side of the argument.

If all of the puppies in that litter are sold on limited registration, then no one is getting "more" for their money. 

Dogs are not interior decorating. Breeders are doing the right thing. The lack of AKC registration for puppies from a limited registration dog makes it a less attractive breeding prospect for many BYBs and puppy mills, and thereby reduces the chances of the dog winding up a mere puppy factory. 

Backyard bred puppy with full registration: $400. Well-bred puppy with limited registration: $900. Knowing a breeder is trying to prevent any of their puppies from being bred sans clearances, sans titles, and sans scruples: Priceless.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

duk4me said:


> Totally AGREE



And THAT my friends is why we still have some folks breeding EIC, CNM or PRA Affected dogs and dogs w/ bad elbows, hips, etc.. Hate to say it, but the understanding of very basic genetics is pretty slim out there. 

Paul, as a new breeder, you will learn that there are plenty of BIG talkers out there. Maybe not on your current litter, but you'll learn.  They say they are going to do all the right things, play all the right doggy games, and in the end, do nothing but breed. I've worked hard to build my name and pedigrees here, and think I owe it to the stud owners to hold a certain level of responsibility to their programs too. I sell for reasonable prices still too, but that said, it has been suggested that I charge double for Full Reg. I won't do that. I do offer a conversion option at age 2 after OFAs, CERFs, and any necessary gene testing is done though. In this litter for instance, I'll require that the interested buyers test for EIC status just so that they KNOW what they are dealing with since Goose is a Carrier (pups will be clear for all the rest). I don't think for the $30 conversion fee they have to pay to AKC, it's unfair at all. Especially when others would be charging well over $1000 *extra* up front... maybe I'm dumb because that'd buy me a lot of kibble here, but it's not about $ to me.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

You said it better than I just did. 





AllAroundLab said:


> I feel compelled to present the other side of the argument.
> 
> If all of the puppies in that litter are sold on limited registration, then no one is getting "more" for their money.
> 
> ...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

AllAroundLab said:


> I feel compelled to present the other side of the argument.
> 
> If all of the puppies in that litter are sold on limited registration, then no one is getting "more" for their money.
> 
> ...


Your comment is contradictory. 

If a buyer pays a premium price for a pup that is good a good breeding and has all it's health clearances.....how does that classify the person as a puppy mill? And Anne, a dog with a limited registration is clearly worth a lot less money than one with a full registration. Try to re-sell it...you couldn't unless it was a full registration. 

Therefore, the market dictates that a person interested in buying a quality dog shouldn't entertain a limited registration. If they did, they should pay less. If the intention is that the dog should not be bred, it should be nuetered and therefore again, be worth less money.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

But why not allow full registration when the clearences are made, if health of the breed is the issue, as Happy says?

If health clearences are there, in time, and a full price is paid, doesn't that person have the right to breed and show the dog?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Mallard1 said:


> But why not allow full registration when the clearences are made, if health of the breed is the issue, as Happy says?
> 
> If health clearences are there, in time, and a full price is paid, doesn't that person have the right to breed and show the dog?



That is why you'd pay over $1000 for a dog with health clearances on the parents and pups. It is a premium price for a premium product. Add in conditions which don't allow you to breed your "premium" pup and it just plainly is not worth, "Full Price". I think people might expect to pay $400 for a dog they plan on nuetering within a few months of ownership.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Mallard1 said:


> But why not allow full registration when the clearences are made, if health of the breed is the issue, as Happy says?
> 
> If health clearences are there, in time, and a full price is paid, doesn't that person have the right to breed and show the dog?


Because there are too many shysters out there that will take advantage of full registration. Once that pup is in the new owners hands, the breeder has absolutely no control over what happens.

How many advertisements have you seen screaming "out of champion lines"? When all they've bred is crap to crap and the champion lines are grandparents or farther back, and those genes come from your lines.

How would you like to see the line you worked so hard to develop end up in a silver breeder's kennel?

How would you like to see the line you worked so hard to develop, or even one of your pups, end up in a puppy mill?

I also respect every stud dog owner that graciously allowed me to use the genes of their dog. The only way that I can honor that is try to keep those genes with people that have the same respect that I do.

Therefore, I will sell a pup on full registration only to people I know and have gotten references about.

Those that are upset about full vs limited haven't seen what happens in rescues and won't get a pup from me.

If they prove to me over the two years it takes to get all the health clearances that they are a responsible and thoughtful person, there is always the option of switching to full registration.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> And THAT my friends is why we still have some folks breeding EIC, CNM or PRA Affected dogs and dogs w/ bad elbows, hips, etc.. Hate to say it, but the understanding of very basic genetics is pretty slim out there.
> 
> Paul, as a new breeder, you will learn that there are plenty of BIG talkers out there. Maybe not on your current litter, but you'll learn.  They say they are going to do all the right things, play all the right doggy games, and in the end, do nothing but breed. I've worked hard to build my name and pedigrees here, and think I owe it to the stud owners to hold a certain level of responsibility to their programs too. I sell for reasonable prices still too, but that said, it has been suggested that I charge double for Full Reg. I won't do that. I do offer a conversion option at age 2 after OFAs, CERFs, and any necessary gene testing is done though. In this litter for instance, I'll require that the interested buyers test for EIC status just so that they KNOW what they are dealing with since Goose is a Carrier (pups will be clear for all the rest). I don't think for the $30 conversion fee they have to pay to AKC, it's unfair at all. Especially when others would be charging well over $1000 *extra* up front... maybe I'm dumb because that'd buy me a lot of kibble here, but it's not about $ to me.


So how many champs have you bred Windy? What great accomplishments have you made to the breed that you should decide who can and cannot breed. Also your implication that I have bred dogs that are eic cnm etc. is well just Windy. Quit passing gas Windy and yes I think you are dumb.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BTW anyone who thinks that limited registration will stop puppy mills is simply delusional.\\

labradoodle regards,


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

mmm my bad jh's and other titles that don't have anything to do with retrieving. Good luck selling those pups to field trial homes......forgot it aint about the benjamins.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Mallard1 said:


> But why not allow full registration when the clearences are made, if health of the breed is the issue, as Happy says?
> 
> If health clearances are there, in time, and a full price is paid, doesn't that person have the right to breed and show the dog?


This is what I do... When my clients get all the clearances done I change the registration to full. No one has done that to date save one. Once they found out their "wonder dog" was an EIC carrier they no longer pursued full registration.

I don't care who they breed to or how they sell their puppies or who to. That's out of my control and I don't want to control that. I just want to make sure that the dog they bought from me has all the health clearances before they breed it. Now when I sell a puppy to folks I know that's something totally different. They get full registration because I know they will get the clearances done no matter what.

Angie


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Mallard1 said:


> But why not allow full registration when the clearences are made, if health of the breed is the issue, as Happy says?
> 
> If health clearences are there, in time, and a full price is paid, doesn't that person have the right to breed and show the dog?


That is what I do--- theyre all sold with limited reg( some exceptions). Once the buyer shows me copies of the clearances, in nowadays cases: hips,elbows eyes , heart and cnm, then I'm happy to lift it... if a person is planning on breeding responsibly they would have done that stuff anyways.
...JEEZ ANGIE---- why do you get in my head!!!??????!!


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Angie B said:


> This is what I do... When my clients get all the clearances done I change the registration to full. No one has done that to date save one. Once they found out their "wonder dog" was an EIC carrier they no longer pursued full registration.
> 
> I don't care who they breed to or how they sell their puppies or who to. That's out of my control and I don't want to control that. I just want to make sure that the dog they bought from me has all the health clearances before they breed it. Now when I sell a puppy to folks I know that's something totally different. They get full registration because I know they will get the clearances done no matter what.
> 
> Angie


I accept this opinion from a breeder/trainer that has played the RETRIEVER game at all levels and has made a living doing it. Others......not so much.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

duk4me said:


> So how many champs have you bred Windy? What great accomplishments have you made to the breed that you should decide who can and cannot breed. Also your implication that I have bred dogs that are eic cnm etc. is well just Windy. Quit passing gas Windy and yes I think you are dumb.


Theres no reason to be an a**hole and insult someone you dont know by calling them dumb . Because someone doesnt breed what YOU think is perfect doesnt make their decisions less important to them. BTW how many champions have you bred?
I forgot to add, that while all of us respect and give all the respect a FC is due- theres plenty of hunters out there who dont require that title in a parent of their puppy. Remember that field trials are not the largest percentage of jobs out there for a labrador .


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Either way, it is about attempting to control something which you cannot. Contracts for puppies don't mean a thing. People can forge paperwork if they are at that level. Thinking that registration paperwork is some sort of "end all" or, saving the world from puppy mills is just goofy thinking in my opinion. 

I know Anne personally and she takes great pride in her dogs, their health and genuinely cares about her animals. No need to throw stones over disagreements. 

I have an opinion about puppy contracts and limited registrations. A puppy health guarantee is only as good as the handshake of the person who wrote it. They have very little legal foundation no matter who writes it. Pay your lawyer $$ to write it. Doesn't matter. If you have a dispute it will end up in small claims court. In "most" States, if you think a contract is worth something, call your lawyer and ask them to represent you in a small claims suit......you won't like their answer. Not to mention, Livestock laws will be the back up and they don't often pertain to the sale of dogs. Win a small claims court case, all you have left is to hand the paperwork over to a collection agency and then what?????

You have not stopped a puppy mill, you have not kept a dog without health clearances from being bred and you have not been the doggy breeding police or, kept the prices of pups higher.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Billie said:


> Theres no reason to be an a**hole and insult someone you dont know by calling them dumb . Because someone doesnt breed what YOU think is perfect doesnt make their decisions less important to them. BTW how many champions have you bred?
> I forgot to add, that while all of us respect and give all the respect a FC is due- theres plenty of hunters out there who dont require that title in a parent of their puppy. Remember that field trials are not the largest percentage of jobs out there for a labrador .


I respect you opinion however, when someone who knows nothing about me associates 5me with breeders that breed regardless of clearances, see post 53, I reserve the right to call them dumb. Perhaps I should have used the term ignorant. Ignorant: lacking the knowledge .........

Of course Billie you are correct by me defending myself and questioning my accuser I am and asshole. BTW I have never bred a champion I just don't act like I have.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

Angie B said:


> And here it is from the breed standard:
> Getting away from the name calling. Let me start with the fact that I've seen some really neat CH/MH that I'd stand next to anytime, and the videos you guys have posted are neat. After reading ALL of Angie's post on breed standards, owning a show bred HT dog (1990), and doing breeder research for friends of mine interested in English/or show labs, its SO funny how the "standard" has remained the same, but the CHs of today look SO much different than those 30 or more years ago. Quite a bit boxier and short coupled. Almost non-athletic looking at times. Take a look at dogs like the fabulous CH-Shamrock Acres Light Brigade and those that preceded him. They look very little like today's dogs that carry the CH before their names. I'm just wondering how/or why the "standard" has remained the same, but the conformation hasn't. Of course that topic has probably been hashed about many times.
> My very first HRCH/SH/hunting dog was a Briggs grandson. He was awesome!!! I'd love
> another just like him. Looks and performance.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

duk4me said:


> I respect you opinion however, when someone who knows nothing about me associates 5me with breeders that breed regardless of clearances, see post 53, I reserve the right to call them dumb. Perhaps I should have used the term ignorant. Ignorant: lacking the knowledge .........
> 
> Of course Billie you are correct by me defending myself and questioning my accuser I am and asshole. BTW I have never bred a champion I just don't act like I have.



I reread the post in question and did not see that she accused you (or anyone) directly of breeding affected animals. I did see though that she called her own self dumb for not charging more money for an unlimited registration. I think her point is that its not about money for her,and if it were she would do just that....
If everyone bred responsibly, I dont think any of us would be having this conversation.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

By the way, I have neutured or spayed my dogs for years, as I am not usually interested in breeding dogs.

The issue for me is that having paid a good price for a dog, I want to make that decision, not have someone else make a judgement about whether I am responsible or not. 

In other words, I don't want my integrity questioned over a two year period when I have been a responsible animal owner my entire life.

Maybe that is asking too much? I wouldn't think so, given all of you who are obviously serious, responsible breeders with whom it would be an honor to own one of your dogs.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> And THAT my friends is why we still have some folks breeding EIC, CNM or PRA Affected dogs and dogs w/ bad elbows, hips, etc.. Hate to say it, but the understanding of very basic genetics is pretty slim out there.
> 
> Paul, as a new breeder, you will learn that there are plenty of BIG talkers out there. Maybe not on your current litter, but you'll learn.  They say they are going to do all the right things, play all the right doggy games, and in the end, do nothing but breed. I've worked hard to build my name and pedigrees here, and think I owe it to the stud owners to hold a certain level of responsibility to their programs too. I sell for reasonable prices still too, but that said, it has been suggested that I charge double for Full Reg. I won't do that. I do offer a conversion option at age 2 after OFAs, CERFs, and any necessary gene testing is done though. In this litter for instance, I'll require that the interested buyers test for EIC status just so that they KNOW what they are dealing with since Goose is a Carrier (pups will be clear for all the rest). I don't think for the $30 conversion fee they have to pay to AKC, it's unfair at all. Especially when others would be charging well over $1000 *extra* up front... maybe I'm dumb because that'd buy me a lot of kibble here, but it's not about $ to me.


............


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

David Maddox said:


> Angie B said:
> 
> 
> > And here it is from the breed standard:
> ...


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Billie said:


> I reread the post in question and did not see that she accused you (or anyone) directly of breeding affected animals. I did see though that she called her own self dumb for not charging more money for an unlimited registration. I think her point is that its not about money for her,and if it were she would do just that....
> If everyone bred responsibly, I dont think any of us would be having this conversation.


Bumped it perhaps your and my reading comprhension is different but that first paragraph pretty much insinuates that I am the scurge of the breeding world. The bumped post is a response to my agreeing with Happy. Now reread that post and realise it is a response to agreeing with Happy and how does that not equate to an accusal of my breeding practices?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Mallard1 said:


> By the way, I have neutured or spayed my dogs for years, as I am not usually interested in breeding dogs.
> 
> The issue for me is that having paid a good price for a dog, I want to make that decision, not have someone else make a judgement about whether I am responsible or not.
> 
> ...


It has nothing to do with you. We don't know you. That's the bottom line. Please don't be offended if someone who doesn't know you sells you a puppy on a limited registration. It's a crazy world out there. In the big scheme of things it really is harmless in the big picture.

Angie


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Tom,

I think you make some excellent points! There are lots of good dog owners and breeders out there who can make their own breeding decisions.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

No M1 we need guidance from the all knowing. We arent capable of making intelligent decisions and must rely on the superior beings that never make a mistake in their breeding practices.

the great unwashed regards,


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

duk4me said:


> Bumped it perhaps your and my reading comprhension is different but that first paragraph pretty much insinuates that I am the scurge of the breeding world. The bumped post is a response to my agreeing with Happy. Now reread that post and realise it is a response to agreeing with Happy and how does that not equate to an accusal of my breeding practices?


I still dont see it as a direct insult to your breeding- nobody knows what youve bred,or if youve ever bred a dog. Nobody wants to be controlled,neither do I! Anybody that knows me knows that nobody tells me what to do either. .. I see that your response is inagreement with what Happy said. FWIW I dont think Happys the scurge of the breeding world either. Hard to think that we have to defend everything we say on RTF-its kind of like the real world-where everyones panties get wadded up over nothin'.....


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

People's ideas are always important. It doesn't have to do with me or you Angie - it is the concept we are talking about. There is no intent to make it personal. I am sure you are great at what you do, but there may be different views .

And, Tom, I would love to hunt at your side anytime!


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Yes, see post #53. It was "I agree" (w/ Paul's statement "If I pay a premium price, I want to be able to change my mind without someone elses' approval. If I want to paint the bathroom blue in two years because I don't like yellow anymore, I'm going to paint it blue. I'd love to turn people away from buying a puppy on limited registration unless they paid 1/2 price of those who got full registration from the same litter. That would be worth limited registration.").

It was assanine. It is comparing a living, breathing entity to a piece of property... a bathroom no less! 

How many CH's have I done? None w/ AKC, several w/ IABCA, and well over 50 w/ AKC (mult venues no less) in the past 13 yrs or so. How many have YOU done, duk4me? Have you bred? Have you ever spent any time volunteering for rescue to see what assholes are really truly out there? Again, I have NO issue (agree totally w/ Angie above) w/ folks I know. Its' the big talkers who call or email that promise the moon and then do nothing but breed their dogs to death that really PISS me off. 



duk4me said:


> I respect you opinion however, when someone who knows nothing about me associates 5me with breeders that breed regardless of clearances, see post 53, I reserve the right to call them dumb. Perhaps I should have used the term ignorant. Ignorant: lacking the knowledge .........
> 
> Of course Billie you are correct by me defending myself and questioning my accuser I am and asshole. BTW I have never bred a champion I just don't act like I have.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Who's Tom???

Angie


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Billie said:


> I still dont see it as a direct insult to your breeding- nobody knows what youve bred,or if youve ever bred a dog. Nobody wants to be controlled,neither do I! Anybody that knows me knows that nobody tells me what to do either. .. I see that your response is inagreement with what Happy said. FWIW I dont think Happys the scurge of the breeding world either. Hard to think that we have to defend everything we say on RTF-its kind of like the real world-where everyones panties get wadded up over nothin'.....


Billie that was a direct response to my agreeing with Happy. Windy's response was and I quote "and THAT my friends is why we still have some folks breeding Eic, Cnm, or Pra affected dogs and dogs with.......how is that not an accusation?

Truthfully it doesn't matter to me what Windy's opinion of me is. My friends and I have gotten a good chuckle out of it. Hey if you ever need a no clearance, backyard bred,questionalble registration, pot licker, could be chocolate or chesapeake, pointing retriever, dudley factored, web-footed, dual coat, dock diving, obstacle course running, ****/squirrell treeing, quail pointing, pheasant flushing, rabbit chasing, and last but not least finger licking lab let me know. I got em on sale.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

AMEN to THAT !!!!!! Thank you Angie and Billie for putting some sense into this thread. And OP, if you have to hide behind screen/pet names, I find it's pretty hard to take you/your needs seriously on this subject, esp when it's now clear you've not bred, and maybe not even competed w/ a dog yet. I thought I knew a lot when I graduated magna cum laude from HS. And then came cum laude from college (MSU--- 45,000 students)... that's when I started to learn I had so much more to learn. Now I'm 51 yo and in private biz working for folks w/ so much more than I'll ever accomplish. And find it's really good to be conservative when judging people. But you have a great day.  Anne 





Angie B said:


> It has nothing to do with you. We don't know you. That's the bottom line. Please don't be offended if someone who doesn't know you sells you a puppy on a limited registration. It's a crazy world out there. In the big scheme of things it really is harmless in the big picture.
> 
> Angie


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

And I think your reading comprehension needs some fine tuning cuz I was not expressing any opinion, implied or otherwise to you other than the fact you were very quick to say Hooohah!! to Paul's comments. I have no idea WHO YOU are Tim. 




duk4me said:


> Billie that was a direct response to my agreeing with Happy. Windy's response was and I quote "and THAT my friends is why we still have some folks breeding Eic, Cnm, or Pra affected dogs and dogs with.......how is that not an accusation?
> 
> Truthfully it doesn't matter to me what Windy's opinion of me is. My friends and I have gotten a good chuckle out of it. Hey if you ever need a no clearance, backyard bred,questionalble registration, pot licker, could be chocolate or chesapeake, pointing retriever, dudley factored, web-footed, dual coat, dock diving, obstacle course running, ****/squirrell treeing, quail pointing, pheasant flushing, rabbit chasing, and last but not least finger licking lab let me know. I got em on sale.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> AMEN to THAT !!!!!! Thank you Angie and Billie for putting some sense into this thread. And OP, if you have to hide behind screen/pet names, I find it's pretty hard to take you/your needs seriously on this subject, esp when it's now clear you've not bred, and maybe not even competed w/ a dog yet. I thought I knew a lot when I graduated magna cum laude from HS. And then came cum laude from college (MSU--- 45,000 students)... that's when I started to learn I had so much more to learn. Now I'm 51 yo and in private biz working for folks w/ so much more than I'll ever accomplish. And find it's really good to be conservative when judging people. But you have a great day.  Anne


Er....hiding behind screen names?lol Windy I disagree with you but my name is plastered at the bottom of every post I make. Your accomplishments are fantastic congratulations. Now what do they have to do with this thread?:razz:


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

The fact of the matter, OP or Duk4me or whoever, you won't BUY a pup from me w/ full reg unless I'm comfortable in working w/ you. My dogs. My breeding program. Not yours.  Anne


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Hmmmmm, see post #59, "tim" ????



"So how many champs have you bred Windy? What great accomplishments have you made to the breed that you should decide who can and cannot breed. Also your implication that I have bred dogs that are eic cnm etc. is well just Windy. Quit passing gas Windy and yes I think you are dumb. Tim Bockmon."​




duk4me said:


> Er....hiding behind screen names?lol Windy I disagree with you but my name is plastered at the bottom of every post I make. Your accomplishments are fantastic congratulations. Now what do they have to do with this thread?:razz:


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

And now I am to guess that YOU were also the OP? Because THAT was who I addressed the "screen name" comment to. OP, btw, means "original poster" and I dont' think Mallard1 and you are one and the same, but maybe you are.....





duk4me said:


> Er....hiding behind screen names?lol Windy I disagree with you but my name is plastered at the bottom of every post I make. Your accomplishments are fantastic congratulations. Now what do they have to do with this thread?:razz:


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> Hmmmmm, see post #59, "tim" ????
> 
> 
> 
> "So how many champs have you bred Windy? What great accomplishments have you made to the breed that you should decide who can and cannot breed. Also your implication that I have bred dogs that are eic cnm etc. is well just Windy. Quit passing gas Windy and yes I think you are dumb. Tim Bockmon."​


OK I totally disagree with you on LR but you are correct your dogs your choice. I,m sorry for the juvenile digs at you but hey in the old days, at least as I remember them, it was pretty standard on RTF. I guess things have changed.

Good luck to you and I wish you success in your breeding.

Tim


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

If that's an apology, I'll accept it, because to be honest, I'm too busy right now making a living in my real occupation (very seasonal) to screw w/ trivial discussions like this. And now I'm reminded why I've not bothered to get on chat forums much these past couple months... 





duk4me said:


> OK I totally disagree with you on LR but you are correct your dogs your choice. I,m sorry for the juvenile digs at you but hey in the old days, at least as I remember them, it was pretty standard on RTF. I guess things have changed.
> 
> Good luck to you and I wish you success in your breeding.
> 
> Tim


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> If that's an apology, I'll accept it, because to be honest, I'm too busy right now making a living in my real occupation (very seasonal) to screw w/ trivial discussions like this. And now I'm reminded why I've not bothered to get on chat forums much these past couple months...


Yes that is an apology. We disagree but I shouldn't have been an a..hole. BTW I am duk4me tim bockmon and no other the mallard is on his own.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

windycanyon said:


> And THAT my friends is why we still have some folks breeding EIC, CNM or PRA Affected dogs and dogs w/ bad elbows, hips, etc.. Hate to say it, but the understanding of very basic genetics is pretty slim out there.


Limited registration or not those unknowing will still breed and sell without papers for$200 instead of $400 and those unknowing buyer will still buy because they just want a lab and all the title so proudly displayed by testers means noting to them except for another $700 out of their pocket.

And some of those in the know of all the elbows hips cerf will still breed the curly rat tailed displaystic 40lb "papered" lab because it WINS!

There are no innocents among us.....................


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

I don't see why anyone who wants to breed their dog would be against a limited registration that can be lifted if the dog is tested/passes the health clearances. If you're going to breed, you ought to be doing that anyhow.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I can get pretty much any Chesapeake I want with no strings attached. If I was in the market for a really good lab, (which breedings are a dime a dozen for field or show) I would have zero problem getting one without conditions on the paperwork. 

I would and will forever walk away from any breeding with conditions unless it was really a once in a lifetime breeding........Which, I've never seen advertised for sale anywhere. Those owners are hand picked.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

What some of you don't seem to undertand is that the buyers on places like RTF, looking for performance retrievers, aren't the main market for most field Lab breeders. Most are lucky to get a performance home with an average MH or even FC-sired breeding, it takes a really topshelf breeding to get multiple placements out of a litter, with a prolific breed like Labs anyway, and/or years to establish a reputation and develop a market that will get them placements in HT/FT homes on a regular basis. The main buyer for most field Lab breeders are companion/hunting homes. Those are the ones that benefit from a Limited Registration process, to spell out for them what is required before they can breed, aka, health clearances. Otherwise, they pay little attention since they aren't in a circle that obsesses about titles and health clearances. Once one is hooked in some sort of dog game, different story (not that there aren't bad breeders there either but generalizing here), people who are running some venue generally hear at some point about health clearances, new genetic tests that have been developed, etc. Joe Hunter who wants a well-bred chocolate and pays 1K for it, thinks in a year or so when she turns out to be the best hunting dog he's ever had, maybe he could get some $$ out of her, or the classic, just wants a pup for himself, well, Joe Hunter will need to do the health clearances to get his Full Registration or will drastically cut his saleability and profit margin by having non AKC Lab pups to sell. Joe Hunter has nothing to lose by breeding his bitch without them, he's got no reputation as a breeder, hasn't spent years and untold dollars adding on to a pedigree built by the studious breeders that came before him. He just wants pups. Limited Registration is the only tool we have to try and maintain some hand in protecting at least the basic health clearances of a dog we give a damn about because we had a personal stake in bringing that dog into this world. Yeah, some of us really, really do care that much. So we try. It isn't perfect, it doesn't prevent breeding, but Limited Registration gives us a tool that is better than nothing at all. Just have some puppies in some "hot" shade like fox reds or chocolates or post photos in your ads of very light/white pups and see the goonies come out, looking for their next meal ticket/brood bitch/stud for their wonderful byb where they charge more than I do for their designer colors and don't do a damn thing with their dogs. When I discuss Limited Registration, it weeds that aspect out for me right off the bat, gives me a barometer of sorts to check out a buyer I don't know. I don't have a problem selling puppies on Limited, I don't have a problem working with someone who wants Full if I know who they are or can at least check out their other dogs on OFA/EE, stuff like that. I used to be the buyer that refused to even talk about Limited, thought the same as some of you, if I buy it, it is mine. Once I bred a few, I realized just how many slick shysters there are out there, or just flat out average lazy don't read the puppy packet info, don't bother to get educated before doing something types. THAT is how and why many of us use Limited Registration these days. You want to be offended and high and mighty, fine, but just realize that the buyers on these kinds of forums are NOT representative of the majority of the market most Lab breeders deal with pretty much on a daily basis and that there is validity and a use for Limited. Just go through all the noob posts about their byb pup and the health issues and their total lack of knowledge about the most basic health clearances, don't even know about EIC or CNM, because their breeder didn't know or care, those are the types of breeders we don't want getting their hands on our pups.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

gdluck said:


> Limited registration or not those unknowing will still breed and sell without papers for$200 instead of $400 and those unknowing buyer will still buy because they just want a lab and all the title so proudly displayed by testers means noting to them except for another $700 out of their pocket.
> 
> And some of those in the know of all the elbows hips cerf will still breed the curly rat tailed displaystic 40lb "papered" lab because it WINS!
> 
> There are no innocents among us.....................


True this does happen but not often. More likely they'll be sold "free to a good home" because the guy with $200 will find a litter that is registered.

At least myself as a breeder I have used the tools that are available to prevent this kind of thing from happening. That's the best anybody can do.

Angie


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> What some of you don't seem to undertand is that the buyers on places like RTF, looking for performance retrievers, aren't the main market for most field Lab breeders. Most are lucky to get a performance home with an average MH or even FC-sired breeding, it takes a really topshelf breeding to get multiple placements out of a litter, with a prolific breed like Labs anyway, and/or years to establish a reputation and develop a market that will get them placements in HT/FT homes on a regular basis. The main buyer for most field Lab breeders are companion/hunting homes. Those are the ones that benefit from a Limited Registration process, to spell out for them what is required before they can breed, aka, health clearances. Otherwise, they pay little attention since they aren't in a circle that obsesses about titles and health clearances. Once one is hooked in some sort of dog game, different story (not that there aren't bad breeders there either but generalizing here), people who are running some venue generally hear at some point about health clearances, new genetic tests that have been developed, etc. Joe Hunter who wants a well-bred chocolate and pays 1K for it, thinks in a year or so when she turns out to be the best hunting dog he's ever had, maybe he could get some $$ out of her, or the classic, just wants a pup for himself, well, Joe Hunter will need to do the health clearances to get his Full Registration or will drastically cut his saleability and profit margin by having non AKC Lab pups to sell. Joe Hunter has nothing to lose by breeding his bitch without them, he's got no reputation as a breeder, hasn't spent years and untold dollars adding on to a pedigree built by the studious breeders that came before him. He just wants pups. Limited Registration is the only tool we have to try and maintain some hand in protecting at least the basic health clearances of a dog we give a damn about because we had a personal stake in bringing that dog into this world. Yeah, some of us really, really do care that much. So we try. It isn't perfect, it doesn't prevent breeding, but Limited Registration gives us a tool that is better than nothing at all. Just have some puppies in some "hot" shade like fox reds or chocolates or post photos in your ads of very light/white pups and see the goonies come out, looking for their next meal ticket/brood bitch/stud for their wonderful byb where they charge more than I do for their designer colors and don't do a damn thing with their dogs. When I discuss Limited Registration, it weeds that aspect out for me right off the bat, gives me a barometer of sorts to check out a buyer I don't know. I don't have a problem selling puppies on Limited, I don't have a problem working with someone who wants Full if I know who they are or can at least check out their other dogs on OFA/EE, stuff like that. I used to be the buyer that refused to even talk about Limited, thought the same as some of you, if I buy it, it is mine. Once I bred a few, I realized just how many slick shysters there are out there, or just flat out average lazy don't read the puppy packet info, don't bother to get educated before doing something types. THAT is how and why many of us use Limited Registration these days. You want to be offended and high and mighty, fine, but just realize that the buyers on these kinds of forums are NOT representative of the majority of the market most Lab breeders deal with pretty much on a daily basis and that there is validity and a use for Limited. Just go through all the noob posts about their byb pup and the health issues and their total lack of knowledge about the most basic health clearances, don't even know about EIC or CNM, because their breeder didn't know or care, those are the types of breeders we don't want getting their hands on our pups.


Wow Kim,thats a real mouthful. But so glad you said it- Maybe some here will understand now why we use L/R for our puppies. Good job for sharing that perspective....


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Angie B said:


> At least myself as a breeder I have used the tools that are available to prevent this kind of thing from happening. That's the best anybody can do.
> 
> Angie


 Yes indeed, that I agree with 100% Ang.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Limited Registration sounds like reversable nuetering. To me, reversable or not, it isn't worth a premium price. I want to buy the pup, send them pictures and give them updates. I don't want to go through a check list of to-do's of following how someone wants to dictate my breeding decisions. 

Kim, while you are right about most of the buyers here and other forums, it's still the same song. People will do whatever they want to do when they don't give a Sh*T. The whole "I don't want my name attached to that" or, that person could "ruin my program reputation" argument is hoey. The ONLY people who notice any goofy breedings are people of these forums who search pedigrees and track sibling performance. By chance someone did have a bad seed take and run with a breeding it will be OBVIOUS to ANYONE who actually follows breeders and pedigree's. They know when a bitch is and isn't owned by a person. Especially, when the name comes up in the want ads with pups for sale. It will happen. 

As far as people using, "from Ch/MH lines" on advertising....That happens all the time with the most responsible of breeders. They do it themselves. Read through the ads. There are pups with good clearances and owners are promoting Grandparents titles in the pedigree. They are called puppy ads. Ad's is short for Advertising. 

Buying a dog with a Limited Registration is buying a dog who's had a paperwork vasectomy. They just aren't worth full price.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

You are entitled to your opinion. I sell all of my pups on limited, and have given full reg to several buyers after health clearances and at least a JH. As stated previously the limited reg is an educational opportunity for less informed buyers, and those who are in the know don't object because they would do those things anyway.

Meredith


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

The problem that I have with a limited registration is ----- what happens if you get hit by a bus?

All good till someone gets an eye poked regards

Bubba


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Bubba said:


> The problem that I have with a limited registration is ----- what happens if you get hit by a bus?
> 
> All good till someone gets an eye poked regards
> 
> Bubba


depends on how much of you I can still sell to the rendering plant....probably half price.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Bubba said:


> The problem that I have with a limited registration is ----- what happens if you get hit by a bus?
> 
> All good till someone gets an eye poked regards
> 
> Bubba


There are contingencies for that, Bubba. 

And Paul, I'm not using Limited to protect my reputation, personally, because you're right in that respect, who cares. What I give a damn about primarily is where MY pups end up. You can do, breed and sell to whoever, however you want. I reserve the right to do the same. It isn't one size fits all, we aren't all breeding for the same goals, we don't all have the same market, Full isn't all good, Limited isn't all bad, there are uses for both. Calling people names because they choose to use Limited, or somehow intimating they are trying to be control freaks, putting such a negative spin on something some people are trying to use responsibly, well, that just isn't very darned peanutty.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

> Buying a dog with a Limited Registration is buying a dog who's had a paperwork vasectomy. They just aren't worth full price.


I feel that's a rather naive statement. You're new to breeding so we'll see how long you keep that attitude. I like a limited registration better then a co-ownership any day.

Angie


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> There are contingencies for that, Bubba.
> 
> And Paul, I'm not using Limited to protect my reputation, personally, because you're right in that respect, who cares. What I give a damn about primarily is where MY pups end up. You can do, breed and sell to whoever, however you want. I reserve the right to do the same. It isn't one size fits all, we aren't all breeding for the same goals, we don't all have the same market, Full isn't all good, Limited isn't all bad, there are uses for both. Calling people names because they choose to use Limited, or somehow intimating they are trying to be control freaks, putting such a negative spin on something some people are trying to use responsibly, well, that just isn't very darned peanutty.


I don't think my opinion can be un-peanut like? I do think that selling pups on Limited Registration for full "Premium" price isn't right. Again, just my opinion. 

It could easily be argued that insinuating that people who sell pups on a full registration contribute to puppy mills and shelters is not peanutty if, you flip the coin. I didn't call anyone names either... I don't do that.

Don't get me started on co-ownerships....


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

That the whole limited thing gets folks so fired up against is surprising to me. In the lab world, you can get FC/FC pups all day long without it, so if you don't want a limited, just move along.

In the golden world, it seems to be the norm. I have had several dogs with limiteds. No big deal. Only one dog was worth breeding and I was able to get it lifted no problem, even though the breeder had been hit by a bus. My last dog I purchased did not come with limited (because he came from Canada and I think CKC doesn't do it). The breeder chose to sell it to me with a full registration rather than hassle with a co-ownership but only after asking for and checking references--not just calling them but finding people she knew who knew them as well. My mother once bought a pup from a breeder who would only sell dogs to people he had known for at least five years or who could provide five references that he had known at least 10 years. 

If I want a pup from a certain bitch, I will jump through whatever hoops the breeder wants me to. If I didn't much care, I can always find a breeding with fewer hoops.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I don't think my opinion can be un-peanut like? I do think that selling pups on Limited Registration for full "Premium" price isn't right. Again, just my opinion.
> 
> It could easily be argued that insinuating that people who sell pups on a full registration contribute to puppy mills and shelters is not peanutty if, you flip the coin. I didn't call anyone names either... I don't do that.
> 
> Don't get me started on co-ownerships....


I didn't mean you directly, I meant "you" in general, I think there was same name-calling and personal insulting going on back aways. ;-) .


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Here's a newb perspective:

While puppy shopping, I looked at a lot of websites. The "limited" registrations was a turnoff, I did not understand it. Click, on to the next website.

The next surprise was learning that some breeders want you to fill out an application before they even talk to you. Some want interviews. Insulting! Click, on to the next website.

Then there's the "field trial homes preferred" footnote. I didn't know what a field trial was. Click, on to the next website. 

Most people are like me, they just want a pet dog. By making it difficult for jerks to get one of your pups, you also make it difficult for naive decent people to buy one, too.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Vasectomies are successfully reversable....just sayin'...


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

mitty said:


> Here's a newb perspective:
> 
> While puppy shopping, I looked at a lot of websites. The "limited" registrations was a turnoff, I did not understand it. Click, on to the next website.
> 
> ...


Which is why I don't put Limited in my ads. I prefer to talk to people about it one on one. Part of the education and interview process, and I don't use an application either. I like to ask questions and hear the response, not give them an application so they can take their time and write what they think the breeder wants to hear. Conversations between myself and the prospective buyer are what make the relationship. If we don't hit it off, it isn't going to happen, regardless. I hear about their former dogs, families, jobs, what they will be doing with the dog, there is a whole lot going on between the lines, once you've done it a few times, you get to know how to feel things out without being an outright negative hoity toity breeder bitch putting them down. Sometimes, they don't want to pay the price or deal with Limited or EIC carrier or lower pick or whatever, that is fine, but almost always, they go away with an understanding of the why of it and a better knowledge of the questions to ask the next breeder. Often, they come back, because they've talked to the breeders who promise them everything, and it just doesn't sound quite so swell to them anymore, when that breeder can't or won't answer the black and white questions about clearances, titles and whatnot.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Good post Kim though I do state in my ads that the puppy will be sold on a limited registration unless other arrangements are made. For one thing people read what they want to read and you wouldn't believe how many miss that little item. I like it in writing so I'm seen as being upfront and straightforward. During our conversation I bring the limited up and explain it to them and I've never lost a sale because of it. Like you I have no application because I want to get the know the folks personally and them me. I want them to understand our operation and how things are done. I usually have to explain again at least one more time because it's so much information to process.

Being very involved with a local breed club for sometime, it's considered standard procedure to sell with a limited and it's no big deal

Angie


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## PamK (Jul 10, 2010)

So you can't show in Confirmation until after the health tests at 2? I had my weim in the ring at 6 months.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

If a dog is with L/R, you cant show in conformation at all.... Its after two that you do the OFAs at which time many of us offer the conversion to Full (which would allow conformation showing- )


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

My how this topic has turned, it should be divided into 2 threads; The question of Limited registration is a mulit-page thread in it's own right, and it would have been much easier to know what was being discussed if one didn't have to read multiple post on different subjects.

As a Buyer, I'll pass on limited registration, if I was interested in the breeding. I'd still call on it, often times the interview will change breeders mind. I run Dogs, I have multiple titled dogs, my dogs have health clearances, and I will breed, very few if any litters. These are all aspects that breeders can confirm on their own, with a little internet search. If a breeder will not give me full papers based on such, I'll not deal with the breeder. My aversion to the limited, is based on multiple friends that have had limited registrations. When it came time that they were thinking about breeding, usually single breeding when the dog is 5-8 yrs of age, usually a highly titled female. The breeders needed to change the paperwork could not be found. One up and disappeared, and one up and died, with an heir that has no interest in dealing with dogs. They have both put forth a bunch of effort to get these things changed, countless phone calls, protests to the AKC, buyer contracts etc. with no luck. Limited might be a good idea when it works, when it doesn't work it's a pain in the buttocks, life changes circumstances and there's no guarantee that the people you need will be around later down the line. After putting a lot of time, effort, and investment on a dog, good enough that I want a pup out of and to have that contingent on a breeder, I may not have been in contact with for years, is a big headache that I don't have to deal with. Turning in clearances to a breeder, to change paperwork on a dog at 2yrs., that I may never breed is a hassle I don't need to deal with. 

As a Breeder, I can see the appeal of Limited, but my feeling is if I have to seriously consider Limited for a particular buyer; I really don't need to be selling my pups to them.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> My how this topic has turned, *it should be divided into 2 threads*; The question of Limited registration is a mulit-page thread in it's own right, and it would have been much easier to know what was being discussed if one didn't have to read multiple post on different subjects.
> 
> As a Buyer, I'll pass on limited registration, if I was interested in the breeding. I'd still call on it, often times the interview will change breeders mind. I run Dogs, I have multiple titled dogs, my dogs have health clearances, and I will breed, very few if any litters. These are all aspects that breeders can confirm on their own, with a little internet search. If a breeder will not give me full papers based on such, I'll not deal with the breeder. My aversion to the limited, is based on multiple friends that have had limited registrations. When it came time that they were thinking about breeding, usually single breeding when the dog is 5-8 yrs of age, usually a highly titled female. The breeders needed to change the paperwork could not be found. One up and disappeared, and one up and died, with an heir that has no interest in dealing with dogs. They have both put forth a bunch of effort to get these things changed, countless phone calls, protests to the AKC, buyer contracts etc. with no luck. Limited might be a good idea when it works, when it doesn't work it's a pain in the buttocks, life changes circumstances and there's no guarantee that the people you need will be around later down the line. After putting a lot of time, effort, and investment on a dog, good enough that I want a pup out of and to have that contingent on a breeder, I may not have been in contact with for years, is a big headache that I don't have to deal with. Turning in clearances to a breeder, to change paperwork on a dog at 2yrs., that I may never breed is a hassle I don't need to deal with.
> 
> As a Breeder, I can see the appeal of Limited, but my feeling is if I have to seriously consider Limited for a particular buyer; I really don't need to be selling my pups to them.


The OP is looking for a pup from show X hunt lines, wants full registration; some folks says they have such pups but won't sell him one with full registration. The discussion about limited registration is relevant.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Windy started it.....

Hunt'emUp wrote:



> Turning in clearances to a breeder, to change paperwork on a dog at 2yrs., that I may never breed is a hassle I don't need to deal with.


That's a very interesting perspective from someone who claims to be so serious in the sport. Why would you wait? Would you want to keep training and competing a dog until it comes up lame with elbow or hip issues?? That's absurd. No one does that. Better to find out what your dealing with on the front end then later on the back end once a lot of time, love, hard work and money has been dished out. What if your puppy contract gave you a new puppy or a full/partial refund if clearances could not be obtained by 26 months?? Still gonna wait??? Sorry that argument doesn't fly with me.

I believe AKC now does offer help in regards to changes in registration from limited to full when the breeder is unavailable to do so.

Angie


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

I wait until 2 years old for hips and elbows because the ofa will not certify a dog before 2 years. Huntemups argument flies quite well.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

ndk3819 said:


> I wait until 2 years old for hips and elbows because the ofa will not certify a dog before 2 years. Huntemups argument flies quite well.


Re read his post... 

Angie


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

ndk3819 said:


> I wait until 2 years old for hips and elbows because the ofa will not certify a dog before 2 years. Huntemups argument flies quite well.


You can do hips and elbows and submit to OFA for a preliminary evaluation before 2 years of age. Lots of people do prelims at 6-8 months so they don't waste training and money on a dog with problem hips/elbows. Some do earlier and/or use PennHip, as well.


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## leo455 (Aug 15, 2008)

Wow this forum has grown up alittle bit sense I first looked on. Good for all of us. I have a litter that I am selling. They have the potential for both show and hunt test. They have lines deep into both. I have done health clearances on both parents. I sell the pups on l/r to those who buying for a companion dog and sell to performance with complete registration. I have a big problem with the ones who sell only l/r without any hope of getting it lifted. These people are driving people straight to a registry I will not mention.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Hahaha, sure Angie.... blame it on ME!!!! 

Hunt'emUP, I too ask why on earth anyone would wait til the bitch is 5+ to think about breeding and THEN do clearances. Even my performance homes who have NO desire whatsoever to breed are doing ALL the clearances at or about age 2 for the reasons Angie has listed. By age 5+, you could be in for a major disappointment in the fertility dept. 

And as for the worry over the breeder being hit by a bus (etc), thanks for the chuckle and flashback a few years. The ONLY person who ever made a big deal out of that to me (right here, on RTF-- admittedly a novice, but a very motivated one at the time), finally decided that I was probably going to live long enough for her pup to reach age 2 and convert her registration after OFAs, etc were done and a title earned. Guess what? All the talk over doing hunt tests, show, maybe field trials, obed/agility, etc, ended up just that. The dog was never REGISTERED, let alone "shown" to any titles. He's a wonderful pet, is well cared for, healthy and happy, with owner communicating a few times a year, but see, all that worry was for nothing... So it does work both ways. We have to put a certain amount of faith AND responsibility on one another's shoulders, esp when we don't know one another personally. That said, I have plenty of friends I've known for years, who have accomplished far more than myself in the field, that I'd not feel the need to put stipulations on. 




Angie B said:


> Windy started it.....
> 
> Hunt'emUp wrote:
> 
> ...


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

mitty said:


> The OP is looking for a pup from show X hunt lines, wants full registration; some folks says they have such pups but won't sell him one with full registration. The discussion about limited registration is relevant.


Thank you, Mitty. I thought it was a reasonable question and request. It seems it is relevant to a lot of people on this forum who agree.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

No i dragged windy in. Thought i was being helpful to the OP but unless i missed something the desire for full registration was not mentioned at first. Came up later. 
I am sorry if i was wrong to mention someone, but LR or FR aside, I like the thought and care put into litters. The details of how you wish to sell and how you wish to buy are your choice to make. With labs it can be blessing!! to have something to narrow your choices a bit.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Mallard1 said:


> Are there breeders out there who have English looking dogs that hunt some and are relatively quiet? He would need "full registration" too.
> 
> Thanks for helping a new to this rookie, but not new to dogs and hunting.


No, "Full Registration" as you see, was central to the original question.


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Mallard---got some advice. Find yourself a pound rescue lab-many available. Forget about British, American, confirmation, etc... You will be rewarded in the long run.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

Yep. So it was. My bad and best of luck then. I have talked with few breeders that I wont reccomend.
Full registration at 2 is not enough then? Probably not. Might try the UKC forum also. Couple breeders over there always adv. english types. 
Me personally, has never put me off if i otherwise like the breeder. I am prepared to "prove my worthiness "


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## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

Just checking in to answer the op's question. Yes it's not only possible, but there are lots of people doing it.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> Hahaha, sure Angie.... blame it on ME!!!!
> 
> Hunt'emUP, I too ask why on earth anyone would wait til the bitch is 5+ to think about breeding and THEN do clearances. Even my performance homes who have NO desire whatsoever to breed are doing ALL the clearances at or about age 2 for the reasons Angie has listed. By age 5+, you could be in for a major disappointment in the fertility dept.
> 
> And as for the worry over the breeder being hit by a bus (etc), thanks for the chuckle and flashback a few years. The ONLY person who ever made a big deal out of that to me (right here, on RTF-- admittedly a novice, but a very motivated one at the time), finally decided that I was probably going to live long enough for her pup to reach age 2 and convert her registration after OFAs, etc were done and a title earned. Guess what? All the talk over doing hunt tests, show, maybe field trials, obed/agility, etc, ended up just that. The dog was never REGISTERED, let alone "shown" to any titles. He's a wonderful pet, is well cared for, healthy and happy, with owner communicating a few times a year, but see, all that worry was for nothing... So it does work both ways. We have to put a certain amount of faith AND responsibility on one another's shoulders, esp when we don't know one another personally. That said, I have plenty of friends I've known for years, who have accomplished far more than myself in the field, that I'd not feel the need to put stipulations on.


Do you think a bitch who got her hips and elbows done at 5 years old and both results came back good would prove the dog to be more sound than one who was done exactly at two?


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Sean H said:


> Just checking in to answer the op's question. Yes it's not only possible, but there are lots of people doing it.


Thanks, Sean. I will keep checking.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Do you think a bitch who got her hips and elbows done at 5 years old and both results came back good would prove the dog to be more sound than one who was done exactly at two?


What???

How can one be more sound then the other one when they're both the same??? 

Angie


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Angie B said:


> What???
> 
> How can one be more sound then the other one when they're both the same???
> 
> Angie


Work breaks down a body doesn't it? Some more prone to elbow injuries, hips may show some signs of wear if tested later in life would they not?


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

The x-rays at a young age are supposed to predict whether the dog will develop hip dysplasia (or not), or they will tell you if the dog already has it. If you xray the dog at 2 yrs and then at 5 yrs you pretty much get the same answer from the xrays.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Actually Paul, since OFA compares films within breeds and age ranges, I've been told by several that waiting until final evals will often raise you a grade if anything.... and no, when I've had to re-xray any of mine later in life (talking elbows here due to what ended up being a soft tissue injury from a bad agility landing in one case, and another w/ hitting a ditch wrong), I saw no changes due to wear. I think a sound dog will be a sound dog unless it's had a very traumatic injury. 

I remember a friend talking about a Golden whose elbows cleared at age 10. Yes, here it is: http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=343365#animal CH Rush Hill's Haagen Daaz CDX, AX, OAJ, JH, WCX --- that dog did an awful lot, I'd say to wear those joints but still passed both at 10yo. 



Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Work breaks down a body doesn't it? Some more prone to elbow injuries, hips may show some signs of wear if tested later in life would they not?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

So, why do folks make such a fuss about getting it done right at 2 years old, not near a heat cycle and all that mash?


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

The theory is to have them done as young as possible because possible wear and stress of competition over time could lower the final ofa grade. The two year mark is the earliest possible age that the ofa will give a final grade/certification. Let me point out that i'm not a vet, and am not saying if the 2 years will be any different than 10 years old as far as ofa certification, just stating what i know to be the theory as to why they are done right at two years. As far as not having them done during or around a heat cycle, the heat cycle has been known to affect the xrays.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

I think with people, if you X-ray a high school kid's knee for say, sports, and then the same knee when that person is 50, there can be big wear and tear issues. Often when I go to the Ortho doc, I notice two kinds of people mostly - kids with injuries, and folks over 50. Don't know if they same holds true with dogs, but it seems logical, doesn't it?


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

True to a point Mallard1. However, the ofa bases results on the formation of hip socket and joint. Your post is very logical but the results would be more influenced by injury and tendon/tissue damage than the actual shape of the joints etc. Displaysia itself is caused by long term wear of the ball and socket joint due to it being misshapen from the start. In theory, if the joint is correclty formed form the beginning, it will not have the extra space in the joint for the ball to slide in the hip socket and thus erode the joint over time leading to hip displacia.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Work breaks down a body doesn't it? Some more prone to elbow injuries, hips may show some signs of wear if tested later in life would they not?


Okay I see what you're saying but that isn't what you said. A 5 yr old with good hips and elbows is not better then a 2 year old with the same reading. They are the same.

I would expect a 5 year old to have their hips and elbows pass unless of course there was a genetic predisposition otherwise, the dog was not fed a correct diet, or nor was the dog exercised properly.

Angie


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

The point of the OFA ratings (and Penn Hip) is to identify dogs genetically predisposed to hip disease. Only dogs with certain grades of hips are recommended for breeding, the goal being to reduce the incidence of heritable hip disease. It is not meant to exclude dogs from breeding that have merely gotten old or injured etc.

It is not perfect, many dogs that score "good" develop HD etc. by the end of their life. The 2 year cut off is rather arbitrary, but at age 2 years the OFA score is much more predictive of future HD than in a younger dog. The PennHip scheme uses different criteria and is better at predicting future HD and at younger ages.

I cannot tell a hip bone from an arm bone, but I have read many papers about how good the various tests are.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

mitty said:


> The point of the OFA ratings (and Penn Hip) is to identify dogs genetically predisposed to hip disease. Only dogs with certain grades of hips are recommended for breeding, the goal being to reduce the incidence of heritable hip disease. It is not meant to exclude dogs from breeding that have merely gotten old or injured etc.
> 
> It is not perfect, many dogs that score "good" develop HD etc. by the end of their life. The 2 year cut off is rather arbitrary, but at age 2 years the OFA score is much more predictive of future HD than in a younger dog. The PennHip scheme uses different criteria and is better at predicting future HD and at younger ages.
> 
> I cannot tell a hip bone from an arm bone, but I have read many papers about how good the various tests are.


But, you cannot get a passing grade with an injured hip or elbow in either Pennhip or OFA.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> But, you cannot get a passing grade with an injured hip or elbow in either Pennhip or OFA.


Oh yes you can. I had a male receive an excellent rating with one hip that clearly showed a injury and could not be evaluated.

Angie


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Angie B said:


> Oh yes you can. I had a male receive an excellent rating with one hip that clearly showed a injury and could not be evaluated.
> 
> Angie


So, it is a partial result? If one hip is bad, how can they score the "hipS" excellent?


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

ndk3819 said:


> True to a point Mallard1. However, the ofa bases results on the formation of hip socket and joint. Your post is very logical but the results would be more influenced by injury and tendon/tissue damage than the actual shape of the joints etc. Displaysia itself is caused by long term wear of the ball and socket joint due to it being misshapen from the start. In theory, if the joint is correclty formed form the beginning, it will not have the extra space in the joint for the ball to slide in the hip socket and thus erode the joint over time leading to hip displacia.


Thanks NDK,

This is very helpful information. Thanks for taking time to explain it so clearly.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Do you think a bitch who got her hips and elbows done at 5 years old and both results came back good would prove the dog to be more sound than one who was done exactly at two?


I think that that time flies, I don't even think about breeding until 5, usually after all the titles are obtained, and I know the dog to be superior, in the aspects I want in a hunting dog. I don't breed nor own many dogs, just a couple on a 5-8 year program. I like to run and hunt my girls as much I can; a litter can take a dog out for a season, when I need them. Still @ 5-8, I better be looking for a replacement to train up. Luckily I've had all of them come back good, most of them excellent whether they were done @ 2 or 8 yrs. One girl, I sent in with a friend @ 2yrs. because he was having one of his done, they forgot to do the Elbows. Time passes and she ends up being 6 when I get around to getting the elbows done. Paperwork gets misfiled, they do the hips again, no elbows. The tech was all happy to tell me her hips were probably the best she's ever seen, sort've a let down when I told her I should hope they're Excellent that's what OFA rated them, but what about her elbows  Also took in a friends 8 yr. old, he hadn't gotten around to doing the x-rays when she came in season. X-rays came back Excellent, right after a litter. So No I don't think time has anything to do with it a Sound dog is a sound dog. Realistically with the amount and type of work, these dogs do, if they weren't sound you'd know about it much sooner than 5-8, the one dog I've ever had which had problems was it was obvious @ 1 1/2.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> But, you cannot get a passing grade with an injured hip or elbow in either Pennhip or OFA.


Did the injured dog also have hip dysplasia?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> So, it is a partial result? If one hip is bad, how can they score the "hipS" excellent?


Nope,,, that isn't how it came back. He got a excellent rating and a number. My vet at the time recommended to me not to send them in because like you he thought they would just kick them back. But low and behold he passed.

I thought what the heck. I spent the money already so might as well send them in.

Angie


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> So, why do folks make such a fuss about getting it done right at 2 years old, not near a heat cycle and all that mash?


Speaking for myself, I like to know what I've got as soon as possible these days, because if a girl isn't going to pass OFAs, I need to place her before I spend any more time/money on her. Many of my 2yos already have 3-5 titles under their panties, so not like I've not already invested some $ into them. 

OFA states right on their website that some bitches will have subluxation associated w/ estrus so it's advisable to wait. http://www.offa.org/hd_procedures.html I have OFAd one that came into season THAT day. I decided I could re-do the hips if need be a few months later, but I really doubted there would be an issue, and there were not. I had OFAd her Grandma ~2wks before she came into season and she came back Excellent, so I wonder how line dependent it may be. If mine are well into season, I'd tend to wait ~3 mos though personally, just knowing that hormones are going to fluctuate for the next 2.5 mos or so.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> Speaking for myself, I like to know what I've got as soon as possible these days, because if a girl isn't going to pass OFAs, I need to place her before I spend any more time/money on her. Many of my 2yos already have 3-5 titles under their panties, so not like I've not already invested some $ into them.
> 
> OFA states right on their website that some bitches will have subluxation associated w/ estrus so it's advisable to wait. http://www.offa.org/hd_procedures.html I have OFAd one that came into season THAT day. I decided I could re-do the hips if need be a few months later, but I really doubted there would be an issue, and there were not. I had OFAd her Grandma ~2wks before she came into season and she came back Excellent, so I wonder how line dependent it may be. If mine are well into season, I'd tend to wait ~3 mos though personally, just knowing that hormones are going to fluctuate for the next 2.5 mos or so.



without reading, subluxation is a larger than normal gap correct? Wouldn't that be a "soft tissue" issue? Someone said soft tissue injuries don't affect the score?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> without reading, subluxation is a larger than normal gap correct? Wouldn't that be a "soft tissue" issue? Someone said soft tissue injuries don't affect the score?


I can't speak for Ann but no it would not be. A subluxing joint and a soft tissue issue is 2 different things all together.

Angie


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Ok, Hunt'EmUp, I'll concede now that we have meandered away from the OP...


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

mitty said:


> Ok, Hunt'EmUp, I'll concede now that we have meandered away from the OP...


the best definition I have ever heard for GDG


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

duk4me said:


> the best definition I have ever heard for GDG


And all this time I thought GDG was a euphemism for when folks started trashing each other eventually leading to thread lock!:shock:

That was in the pre-peanut era.


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## Mallard1 (Oct 4, 2011)

mitty said:


> Ok, Hunt'EmUp, I'll concede now that we have meandered away from the OP...


Very informational though. You guys are experts, we rookies are learning a lot!


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Angie B said:


> I can't speak for Ann but no it would not be. A subluxing joint and a soft tissue issue is 2 different things all together.
> 
> Angie


Good grief Paul, read the OFA site please since you are now a breeder. And thank you Angie for answering what Paul really SHOULD already know as a breeder / competitor.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Good grief Paul, read the OFA site please since you are now a breeder. And thank you Angie for answering what Paul really SHOULD already know as a breeder / competitor.


Come on Ann,,, Paul is a neophyte with a very long learning curve... There's always one in every bunch. 

Angie


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> Good grief Paul, read the OFA site please since you are now a breeder. And thank you Angie for answering what Paul really SHOULD already know as a breeder / competitor.


Don't call me names or I'll report this to Admin


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

mitty said:


> Ok, Hunt'EmUp, I'll concede now that we have meandered away from the OP...


LOL 3 threads now? Still probably the most informative 3 in 1 thread we've had in a long time, only where's the classic RTF drama? The thread was setup with multiple things to in-fight about, the sun must be having a calming effect on everyone


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Angie B said:


> I can't speak for Ann but no it would not be. A subluxing joint and a soft tissue issue is 2 different things all together.
> 
> Angie


Ok, so I went and read the OFA as Anne suggested. Subluxing joint refers to the space between the socket. This is not indicative of the depth of the socket itself which when combined would indicate dysplasia. I ask the question before which went unawnsered except that, "I should know".... 

I soft tissue injury could in fact result in subluxing joint where the spacial distance relevant to the socket itself leaves a wider opening could it not? If the socket itself is shallow and subluxation is present that is the combination leading to "poor" reading or, injury as you mentioned before Angie? 

The factors I read about is why I leave it up to folks who went to Vet school to tell me the who/what/when/where and why....


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

You guys make my head hurt...


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I think you need to do some more reading.  Dysplasia in itself means "bad fit". Subluxation, to a minor degree, may only lower your otherwise sound dog (w/ adequately deep sockets) to a Good or Fair. But to a higher degree, that joint is so loose, it's a "bad fit" and that will eventually cause issues w/ wear. If it's just loose maybe the dog just gets a mild rating at age 2. But if there is already remodeling there (ie arthritic changes), the dog is going to be rated Moderate to Severe. The other side of the coin is how deep is that socket? If shallow, and less than 50% of that femoral head is seated, even if it's "tightly" seated, your dog won't pass either! Does that make it clearer? I'm pretty sure if you Google Hip dysplasia you can find a lot of xrays showing various grades and why. Start w/ OFA (see the grading link) but this site also has some good info/pictures too: http://www.showdogmed.com/bvs.xraysEH.html 






Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Ok, so I went and read the OFA as Anne suggested. Subluxing joint refers to the space between the socket. This is not indicative of the depth of the socket itself which when combined would indicate dysplasia. I ask the question before which went unawnsered except that, "I should know"....
> 
> I soft tissue injury could in fact result in subluxing joint where the spacial distance relevant to the socket itself leaves a wider opening could it not? If the socket itself is shallow and subluxation is present that is the combination leading to "poor" reading or, injury as you mentioned before Angie?
> 
> The factors I read about is why I leave it up to folks who went to Vet school to tell me the who/what/when/where and why....


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Don't call me names or I'll report this to Admin


OMG! I'm so SORRY I called you a Breeder/Competitor. I will never do that again.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> OMG! I'm so SORRY I called you a Breeder/Competitor. I will never do that again.


Hats off that was funny. I still say ya'll are full of bs though.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Which is why it is not a bad idea to PennHip and see just how lax your hips are.....see if we can get 4 threads in 1...


windycanyon said:


> I think you need to do some more reading.  Dysplasia in itself means "bad fit". Subluxation, to a minor degree, may only lower your otherwise sound dog (w/ adequately deep sockets) to a Good or Fair. But to a higher degree, that joint is so loose, it's a "bad fit" and that will eventually cause issues w/ wear. If it's just loose maybe the dog just gets a mild rating at age 2. But if there is already remodeling there (ie arthritic changes), the dog is going to be rated Moderate to Severe. The other side of the coin is how deep is that socket? If shallow, and less than 50% of that femoral head is seated, even if it's "tightly" seated, your dog won't pass either! Does that make it clearer? I'm pretty sure if you Google Hip dysplasia you can find a lot of xrays showing various grades and why. Start w/ OFA (see the grading link) but this site also has some good info/pictures too: http://www.showdogmed.com/bvs.xraysEH.html


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Don't the Cannucks have a different test they can do with elbows, hips, shoulders and hocks? Or, is that just talking old school? 

maybe 5 threads in one?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I think you are thinking of the Wind-Morgan program (CA, I think???), but they went defunct ~7 yrs or so ago if I recall correctly. Canada has OVC and ????

Keep it going... anyone for 6 in 1?




Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Don't the Cannucks have a different test they can do with elbows, hips, shoulders and hocks? Or, is that just talking old school?
> 
> maybe 5 threads in one?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I.m confused......not unusual......what were we talking about?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

duk4me said:


> I.m confused......not unusual......what were we talking about?


that becomes the whole point after a while....lol..


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

the good news it did not turn into a field vs show thread....!!!


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

or beavers. Can't have too many beaver threads on a friday night.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Pals said:


> or beavers. Can't have too many beaver threads on a friday night.


Amen.... 

Angie


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