# What is wanton waste?



## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

I am struggling with some people that use ducks shot during hunting season for training at club training days and even at licences events. Is this wanton waste? Are there any clubs that have a policy on this and if so how is it stated in by laws or policy?
The breasts have not been removed these ducks are intact.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

If I make good use of a game bird, I didn't waste it. Even if my use, doesn't involve eating it.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Use wild Mallards where there is no shortage of them, in training and competing with retrievers (A conservation tool) 
or buy from a game farm where there can be an environmental impact resulting from the business.
There is no question in my mind about ethics.
In Canada, retriever club game stewards are allowed to possess up to 200 wild ducks for training and competition.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

But by definition of the law is it?


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Wanton = a lewd or lascivious act

The essence of the law is focused on the senseless killing just for self indulgence (ie. shooting practice/sport).

Some might argue that the game must be eaten. Some would argue that breasting the bird out leaves waste. Others might say that if you don't harvest the feathers for warmth you are guilty of waste. Or having the bird mounted might be waste.

Personally, I feel that if you collect the bird and use it in ANY way, you have fulfilled the law and your responsibility. 

ANY way = any non perverse way


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

The letter of the law usually contains verbiage involving "edible parts". And as such, does a poor job of matching the spirit of the law.

Regardless of whether or not I eat parts of a bird, if I get charged with Wanton Waste for having a game bird mounted by a taxidermist, or for utilizing a game bird in the training of a retriever; I'd fight it in court.

If I let a bird lay where it falls in the field, or toss it's entire carcass in a dumpster on the way home from a hunt, then I'd be guilty of Wanton Waste.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Margo, my own opinion is that wild birds shot while hunting should not be used in training or testing.


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## N&N Waterfowl (Dec 1, 2014)

Here is Maine's wanton waste statute:
(Maine) Statute on Wanton Waste:
50 CFR 20.25 Wanton waste of migratory game birds.
No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his actual custody, at the place where taken or between that place and either (a) his automobile or principal means of land transportation; or (b) his personal abode or temporary or transient place of lodging; or (c) a migratory bird preservation facility; or (d) a post office; or (e) a common carrier facility.
According to 12 M.R.S. § 11224, a person may not waste a wild bird or wild animal that has been wounded or killed by that person while hunting. For purposes of this section, "waste" means to intentionally leave a wounded or killed animal in the field or forest without making a reasonable effort to retrieve and render it for consumption or use.

Most other states have similar wording of their wanton waste laws...the keys for me are 
1. A reasonable effort to retrieve a wounded or crippled bird (Someone that is using wild birds for training has done this)
2. Render it for consumption or use (For me, this allows for other uses of the game besides eating....dog training is a "use)


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Margo Ellis said:


> But by definition of the law is it?


in our state game laws it clearly states to the term " migratory game bird " when referring to wanton waste. So to me that mean wild, so any bird bought for dog training is not subject to this law.... 

Just my opinion


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## dgowder (Apr 3, 2012)

She never said they were bought, just used to train with.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Margo Ellis said:


> I am struggling with some people that use ducks shot during hunting season for training at club training days and even at licences events. Is this wanton waste? Are there any clubs that have a policy on this and if so how is it stated in by laws or policy?
> The breasts have not been removed these ducks are intact.


I don't think that legally or ethically this meets the intent of regs against "wanton waste." However, you might run into issues of possession limits and possession of birds out of season. (I've had game wardens check the "toe clips" on training birds. If it's a thawed wild bird how do you prove it was not shot out of season?) And for licensed events, AKC regs regarding the number of "fresh killed" birds required to be provided v freezer birds, wild or game farm. (The later being a pet peeve, esp at certain clubs who use a lot of freezer birds, but seem to have trouble keeping the freezers running.)


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

We were training in a wildlife area last spring and using some drake Goldeneyes we had harvested. Not the best eating bird, but they make great training birds, the black and white show up amazingly well. My buddy and I both had hunting licenses and are therefore allowed to possess 24 ducks between us, possession goes beyond open season. Game Warden stopped by and checked us out, he really likes to watch dogs work, just asked were we got the birds, told him they were harvested this past season, and he was fine with that. Plus you could tell they had been frozen, but he did not handle them. Nor did he ask to see a license. Personally, I like duck meat so much that I eat everything I harvest, except for Goldeneyes, and I do not shoot Buffleheads.
I will buy pheasants to shoot live flyers from a pheasant farm and then clean them to eat. But I will not do that with farm raised ducks, since I cook duck meat rare to medium rare, not using farm raised ducks.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I have always understood, waste as shooting a game animal,and leaving ANY or ALL edible portion lay on the ground.

Gooser really had to think about this though. At first I was gonna say it was thowin out left over Chinese food!


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## Beardog (Sep 16, 2009)

Margo,

In the Montana Migratory Bird regulations regarding wanton waste it states: "No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his/her actual custody. *Note:* (their emphasis, not mine) State regulations are more restrictive, making it illegal to waste any part of a game bird suitable for food, which includes the breasts of birds the size of a teal duck or smaller and the breasts and thighs of all birds larger than a teal duck."

In my discussions with the Montana wardens and the federal wardens, in Montana, if you shoot it you have to utilize it for food. I hope this helps.

Mike


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Mike that is exactly what I was looking for thanks.


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## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

Margo Ellis said:


> I am struggling with some people that use ducks shot during hunting season for training at club training days and even at licences events. Is this wanton waste? Are there any clubs that have a policy on this and if so how is it stated in by laws or policy?
> The breasts have not been removed these ducks are intact.


Margo, this would not be "wanton waste", but it possibly could turn into wanton waste if the birds are disgarded/dumped after being used for training. The real issue could be bag limit, one person can only legally have "X" amount of birds in their possession. Almost without exception, these birds need to be tagged and remained tagged during use, that alone poses another issue.
Birds bought from bird farms do not fall under wanton waste or bag limit laws, they are considered personal property. Bird farms are required to mark their birds, usually by removing a toe. If you raise your own and do not mark the bird, there is always the chance that they could be mistaken for wild.
Owning a duck club and being a past president of a retriever club, I have found that if you have a good relationship with your areas agents, you have little to worry about.
Always remember there are strict laws about possession and transportion of wild game. If those are not followed, there is always a chance that trouble can occur.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Beardog said:


> Margo,
> 
> In the Montana Migratory Bird regulations regarding wanton waste it states: "No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his/her actual custody. *Note:* (their emphasis, not mine) State regulations are more restrictive, making it illegal to waste any part of a game bird suitable for food, which includes the breasts of birds the size of a teal duck or smaller and the breasts and thighs of all birds larger than a teal duck."
> 
> ...


by that definition if you shot a trophy specimen canvasback or cinnamon teal and had a taxidermy mount of that bird, one could be cited for wanton waste...a little common sense needs to be used in these situations

I have used shot wild ducks for training, after removing the breast, we douse the body cavity with borax and then fill it with plumbers silicone, stitch them back up and have a very nice training bird that floats..

How else can one teach a young dog to retrieve a Canada goose, without actually having one to retrieve..If I can save one of them from my hunts and use it for training, I feel I am using it to the best of intentions for future hunts with my dog

IMO wanton waste is I shoot a few birds and chuck them in a dumpster or leave them for the coyotes to eat


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Good Dogs said:


> I don't think that legally or ethically this meets the intent of regs against "wanton waste." However, you might run into issues of possession limits and possession of birds out of season. (I've had game wardens check the "toe clips" on training birds. If it's a thawed wild bird how do you prove it was not shot out of season?) And for licensed events, AKC regs regarding the number of "fresh killed" birds required to be provided v freezer birds, wild or game farm. (The later being a pet peeve, esp at certain clubs who use a lot of freezer birds, but seem to have trouble keeping the freezers running.)


In Oregon the "training birds" permit states it must be toe clipped or identified as a farm raised bird.

"Marked bird for mallards means a domestically-raised mallardwhich was marked prior to 6 weeks of age in at least one of the methods approved by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in 50 CFR21.13. These methods are a seamless metal band, removal of the hind toe from the right foot, tattooing of a readily discernible numberor letter or combination thereof on the web of one foot, or pinioning a wing, provided the pinioning method shall be the removal of themetacarpal bones of one wing or a portion of the metacarpal bones which renders the mallard permanently incapable of flight."

"The take of unmarked game birds (except bobwhite or Coturnix quail) while training a hunting dog or raptor is prohibitedoutside of designated hunting seasons identified in the annual Oregon Game Bird Regulations.

If you are possessing an unmarked wild bird you better be a silver tongued devil to prove you didn't kill it out of season.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

All good points. I think this needs to be addressed at the club level here in Montana.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Over the limit? And there are 5 more in my office and 3 at the Taxi.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I guess it means whatever the game warden says it doe (among other things Bob mentioned). Why invite the hassle and a trip to court to fight it?
Call the game warden and get their opinion (and their name and badge #).


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

A lot can be said on inter-net form, however every state has Departments of Fish and Game, and they have Agents and letter-head; thus I'd go into said office and have them give me a ruling and write it on letter-head to keep in club files. Realistically most states laws list it as leaving game in the field with out attempting a retrieve; then they might say something about consumption or *use* (dog training and testing to develop better conversational tools, is a pretty good use (especially for Spoon-bills ) Still a published letter from the head-office, will keep most all wardens off your back.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Hey now, nothing wrong with Spoonies, have eaten several of them. Soak-em good first though-LOL


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

NateB said:


> Hey now, nothing wrong with Spoonies, have eaten several of them. Soak-em good first though-LOL


:barf: Around here spoonies tend to get rice-belly. I believe every-duck (always spoonies) I've ever seen with that condition has been wanton-waste; I can barely stomach distinct the smell of spoonie meat without little white critters embedded throughout; Probably an acquired taste still extra protein, I'm sure


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> I guess it means whatever the game warden says it doe (among other things Bob mentioned). Why invite the hassle and a trip to court to fight it?
> Call the game warden and get their opinion (and their name and badge #).


Very good advice in my opinion.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

We always keep the best ducks left over from our tests, freeze them, and there is no need to chance it by using wild killed birds. Our club has no official policy that I'm aware of, it is just understood by all.


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## Captzig (Jun 14, 2013)

This kind of discussion or consideration is exactly what will inevitably kill the sport. Do you want a law that prohibits wild game from being used for training? Wanton Waste laws are for one thing. They prevent you from shooting over your limit when you don't feel like looking for a cripple. Trying to interpret a different meaning is fruitless.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

My wife has informed me that all ducks other then mallard, teal, and woodies will be training birds from now on...... If the CO has a problem with it I will refer them to the higher authority and let them discuss it with my wife.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

It's hunting in that it is not just shooting warm targets in the sky and throwing them in the trash can on the way out or pound them in the sand.
At least make an attempt to bring them home.
For Pete sake...there are those who don't like to eat waterfowl, but yet like to shoot them for a challenge to their shooting skills and possible their dog's skills. 
But, understand that that is a minority in our sport, and it exists.


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## Terry Britton (Jul 3, 2003)

limiman12 said:


> My wife has informed me that all ducks other then mallard, teal, and woodies will be training birds from now on...... If the CO has a problem with it I will refer them to the higher authority and let them discuss it with my wife.


I have a duck creole recipe that makes use of those other ducks, especially spoonies very well.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

If a clubs land owner is at risk because state law says you harvest the breast and leg from game birds then I think a club policy should be in order. What would kill the support is the loss of clubs because off possible legal issues. Each state is different.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Margo Ellis said:


> If a clubs land owner is at risk because state law says you harvest the breast and leg from game birds then I think a club policy should be in order. What would kill the support is the loss of clubs because off possible legal issues. Each state is different.


 Game farm birds are identified by a leg tag and a voucher from the game farm as being farm raise birds…
Wild game is not unless tag by Fish and Game for tracking purposes.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

N&N Waterfowl said:


> Here is Maine's wanton waste statute:
> (Maine) Statute on Wanton Waste:
> 50 CFR 20.25 Wanton waste of migratory game birds.
> No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his actual custody, at the place where taken or between that place and either (a) his automobile or principal means of land transportation; or (b) his personal abode or temporary or transient place of lodging; or (c) a migratory bird preservation facility; or (d) a post office; or (e) a common carrier facility.
> ...


Nebraska's definition reads very similar to this.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Talking about it at the club level seems to be the way to go. The less public (Gov't) attention, the better.


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## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

Originally Posted by N&N Waterfowl

Here is Maine's wanton waste statute:
(Maine) Statute on Wanton Waste:
50 CFR 20.25 Wanton waste of migratory game birds.
No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his actual custody, at the place where taken or between that place and either (a) his automobile or principal means of land transportation; or (b) his personal abode or temporary or transient place of lodging; or (c) a migratory bird preservation facility; or (d) a post office; or (e) a common carrier facility.
According to 12 M.R.S. § 11224, a person may not waste a wild bird or wild animal that has been wounded or killed by that person while hunting. For purposes of this section, "waste" means to intentionally leave a wounded or killed animal in the field or forest without making a reasonable effort to retrieve and render it for consumption or use.

Most other states have similar wording of their wanton waste laws...the keys for me are 
1. A reasonable effort to retrieve a wounded or crippled bird (Someone that is using wild birds for training has done this)
2. Render it for consumption or use (For me, this allows for other uses of the game besides eating....dog training is a "use)





Daren Galloway said:


> Nebraska's definition reads very similar to this.


I would bet that every states definition is very close to this. I will bet that no definition states that a bird must be solely comsumed, but that it must be consumed or put to use. Taxidermy and using the bird to training is putting it to use.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

All this time I thought "Wanton Waste" referred to running a poorly trained dog........
Don and Crew


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## dgowder (Apr 3, 2012)

Wanton waste describes my trip to the ATL retriever club derby this morning to a T. I was "wanton " a ribbon but it didn't turn out too well.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

huntinman said:


> Talking about it at the club level seems to be the way to go. The less public (Gov't) attention, the better.


Yep I hesitate even bringing it up on an Internet forum. I would think game wardens have better things to do other than enter private land to check training ducks against a law that was clearly written to address over harvesting and killing game just for the shooting. Especially since the whole purpose of the training is to preserve game.


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## RJW (Jan 8, 2012)

Just my opinion and straight forward answer is it depends on the Warden and his/her interpretation of the law and how nit picky they want to get. Basically the same when it comes to the "Baiting" laws convo that comes up yearly. At the moment we have 3-4 Wardens locally, if you ask them you will possibly get 3-4 different interpretations.


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## J_Brown (Jan 4, 2013)

The law seems pretty clear to me. It says *wasting *the bird is illegal... i.e. leaving the bird in the field purposely after shooting it and/or not making an attempt to recover the bird. Using harvested ducks for training is *not *wasting the bird. You have shot the bird, recovered the bird, and reduced it to your *possession*. At that point you have the right to do dang near whatever you want with it, except sell it. As has already been said pretty clearly a few times here, it's no different than stuffing a bird in the freezer and getting it mounted by a taxidermist. A little common sense goes a long way here. Drafting club rules that prohibit someone from training their dog with legally-harvested wild birds, a crucial process that develops a fine companion and conservation tool, is in my opinion absolutely ridiculous.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

There might be other sections of state or federal laws that might apply. Especially applying to possession and tagging birds.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

I seem to recall a central time zone pro getting busted for having bags of wild shot birds maybe 8-10 years ago. I don't know. Over limit in possession invites trouble. 
Use farm raised birds, banded, clipped whatever and have a receipt handy. Using birds saved from hunting season is not smart.


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

Just eat the birds when you are finished training with them.
Trying to help in the worst way.:razz:


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## labraiser (Feb 5, 2004)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> in our state game laws it clearly states to the term " migratory game bird " when referring to wanton waste. So to me that mean wild, so any bird bought for dog training is not subject to this law....
> 
> Just my opinion


In Pa if you train with wild birds, you dam well better be in season and within the daily bag limit, unless you have strong evidence of them being a pen raised bird. The game commission is very non forgiving on this issue.


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## Brettttka (Feb 9, 2013)

The way I look at it is if I am not going to eat the gadwall or shoveler then it is better for me to use as a training device to help get my dog better at retrieving other birds/cripples the rest of the season rather than just pitching them into the trash or a road ditch along the way home. Have even seen some use them for a coyote pile to help manage the varmits on their farms. All in all what ever one chooses to do with them besides throwing them away is better. Have also used snow geese in training also. No harm in my opinion keeping the birds to better your dog for future hunts where you leave cripples out in the field.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I think Margo's issue is the letter of the law and making sure her club is on the up and up at club sponsored events. I accept your rationalization as reasonable, and think that way myself, but in Montana our game laws are rather precise in language and that rationalization wouldn't fly.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

John Robinson said:


> I think Margo's issue is the letter of the law and making sure her club is on the up and up at club sponsored events. I accept your rationalization as reasonable, and think that way myself, but in Montana our game laws are rather precise in language and that rationalization wouldn't fly.


And being ignorant of the law won't cut it as well.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Pretty soon we will all be forced to use rubber chickens


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Nearly every test I attend as a judge or otherwise, I'm am given the offer to take some birds. Clubs need to get rid of their birds some way some how.

Sometimes if it's hot or the birds are very young and don't look good, I just don't take any. 
There is no reason to take a chance in any state with a wild killed bird when so many are available for free at hunt tests.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

" if I am not going to eat the gadwall or shoveler "
Ever think about not shooting them?
Don and Crew


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Don Lietzau said:


> " if I am not going to eat the gadwall or shoveler "
> Ever think about not shooting them?
> Don and Crew


 I want my dogs to retrieve Gadwalls and Shovelers. 

I also want them to retrieve Mallards, Teal, Buffleheads, Mergansers, Old Squaws, Blue-bills, Ruddys, Wood Ducks, Coots, Doves, Woodcocks, Snow Geese, Pheasants or any other game bird that can legally be taken by a licensed hunter.

I still don't have to eat any of those game birds, in order to make good use of them.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I find the ethics (and laws) behind this sort of topic to be utterly ironic.

For instance, it's required by law to wantonly waste the gallbladder and paws of any bear; legally taken or not. Even though they are (without a doubt) the most valuable parts of the animal that you paid Uncle Sugar and your State Government for the "privilege" of harvesting.

At least we do still have a right to bear arms.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Don Lietzau said:


> " if I am not going to eat the gadwall or shoveler "
> Ever think about not shooting them?
> Don and Crew


Some folks get a limited amount of time to go afield and hunt. They may do the best they can throughout the year to train their dogs.

If these folks violate no game laws, and choose to legally harvest birds they won't eat, that should be their perogative. Some folks may not get a nice day with abundant opportunities to harvest their preferred edible waterfowl species. But they may get some wonderful chances to take gadwall and shovelers. They may choose to put a nice mount on the wall and to put some in the freezer as training birds. 

Shovelers and gadwall both make wonderful training birds. 

I'd say a key to balancing our hobby and the law is to establish a relationship with the local conservation officers and understanding clearly what their interpretations are.

It is clear from this thread that different geographies and different areas have widely varied interpretations of the laws.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

copterdoc said:


> I want my dogs to retrieve Gadwalls and Shovelers.
> 
> I also want them to retrieve Mallards, Teal, Buffleheads, Mergansers, Old Squaws, Blue-bills, Ruddys, Wood Ducks, Coots, Doves, Woodcocks, Snow Geese, Pheasants or any other game bird that can legally be taken by a licensed hunter.
> 
> I still don't have to eat any of those game birds, in order to make good use of them.


I feel the same way. If I'm violating no game laws, and if my local conservation officers are copacetic with my practices, I want my hunting retriever to efficiently bring to the bag all legal species that I harvest.

Woodcock, coot, mergatroids or merganeezers..... 

Go as sent and retrieve to hand.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dman said:


> Nearly every test I attend as a judge or otherwise, I'm am given the offer to take some birds. Clubs need to get rid of their birds some way some how.
> 
> Sometimes if it's hot or the birds are very young and don't look good, I just don't take any.
> There is no reason to take a chance in any state with a wild killed bird when so many are available for free at hunt tests.


I happen to train with an operator of a boarding kennel who rarely has a full weekend to take off to run a test or trial. 

I think we need to be careful that we don't paint everyone's situation with the same brush. 

It could easily be that an individual only gets to attend an event or two where it's hot and the birds are young and don't look very good. That individual may choose not to take any of those birds. That person may get a couple days afield during the season to take some plump, perfectly plumaged wild birds, legally. 

If this individual is not violating any game laws, and they enjoy their day afield with their dog, I do not believe we should begrudge that individual for choosing to freeze a game bird for training. Again, assuming that person obeys all game laws and is copacetic with the game warden in their area.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I think Margo's issue is the letter of the law and making sure her club is on the up and up at club sponsored events. I accept your rationalization as reasonable, and think that way myself, but in Montana our game laws are rather precise in language and that rationalization wouldn't fly.


The best way to approach this is to openly communicate with the conservation officers responsible for the area involved for club events.

Their interpretation is what's important.

It is also important to establish a relationship with these folks to help them realize that we who train our retrievers and test/trial year round are the good guys. There are plenty of poachers and game hogs out there who need to be busted. But the good guys should strive befriend their conservation officers and establish a copacetic relationship.

Chris


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

well, my dog Gunney was cremated with a cockbird , because that was his favorite thing in the world to hunt ...And with Boomer ,his grandson , that last cockbird was taken to the taxidermist ,and when finished will hang over his remains....Were those two birds wasted ??? And I tell you now, if mallards were their favorite , the results would have been the same regards......


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

I believe in Montana there is the ability to harvest birds that will be mounted as long as they are tagged.


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## Brettttka (Feb 9, 2013)

copterdoc said:


> I want my dogs to retrieve Gadwalls and Shovelers.
> 
> I also want them to retrieve Mallards, Teal, Buffleheads, Mergansers, Old Squaws, Blue-bills, Ruddys, Wood Ducks, Coots, Doves, Woodcocks, Snow Geese, Pheasants or any other game bird that can legally be taken by a licensed hunter.
> 
> I still don't have to eat any of those game birds, in order to make good use of them.



Copterdoc..... Exactly what I am saying. Im not talking about every one I kill will be used for training but if you are killing limits multiple days a week a few of the birds used for training are better in my opinion than wasting what you don't eat. Way I see it atleast they are serving some purpose after the kill than just throwing into that trash.


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

I also agree with most that's been said as most birds I train with were harvested during hunting season.
I don't like how it's stated in the Montana regulations, however, there is plenty of room for interpretation.

Wanton Waste – No person shall kill or cripple any migratory game bird pursuant
to this part without making a reasonable effort to retrieve the bird, and retain it in his/her
actual custody. *Note: State regulations are more restrictive, making it illegal to waste
any part of a game bird suitable for food,* which includes the breasts of birds the size
of a teal duck or smaller and the breasts and thighs of all birds larger than a teal duck.

In most eyes, using for training purposes is not wasting. It definitely boils down to what the game warden and/or judge would costitute what wasting is. I would be willing to take my chances and fight it in court for the sake of being right. There is so much more violation for the system to worry about in my opinion.
Good luck to the OP finding the answer.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

In Alaska it is against the law to use intact wild waterfowl and upland birds for training. You will receive at least a Wanton Waste ticket. Hard to say what an officer would do with additional charges. Personally I do not feel that using a legal killed game bird for training would make it wanton waste. I feel like once it's your bird you could do what ever you want with it, just like a Big Mac. Eat it, use it in a food fight, toss it in the trash. Its your bird. That said, I do not write the law and this is how it was put to me when a warden was asked the very question. 
Keep in mind you have state, local and federal laws to contend with.
This is what I do to cover me with wanton waste "in Alaska". 
Remove the breast meat and your OK.





















Don and Crew


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

copterdoc said:


> I want my dogs to retrieve Gadwalls and Shovelers.
> 
> I also want them to retrieve Mallards, Teal, Buffleheads, Mergansers, Old Squaws, Blue-bills, Ruddys, Wood Ducks, Coots, Doves, Woodcocks, Snow Geese, Pheasants or any other game bird that can legally be taken by a licensed hunter.
> 
> I still don't have to eat any of those game birds, in order to make good use of them.


Gee Doc, your dogs are trained way above what I expect. Nice work.
Don and Crew


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

I spoke with an Indiana CO a couple years back and they did just that. He did put his name/address on a tag on each duck (used the free address labels). He did not breast them etc. just used them whole.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

to all ya all who think saving wild shot birds for training is a good idea consider the FT pro who was followed by gamies to his farm freezer discovering X hundred wild birds and charged with other violations.
He was fined $9,000, last dog training and hunting privledges for a dozen years etc etc.
.
Buy birds, keep reciepts etc etc.
.
Most of us are guilty of being too casual with birds. Be prepared just in case.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I happen to train with an operator of a boarding kennel who rarely has a full weekend to take off to run a test or trial.
> 
> I think we need to be careful that we don't paint everyone's situation with the same brush.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% Chris. The problem is the laws are very vague and basically depend on what the Game Warden says. I just have chosen to not take the chance.

Game wardens in most states I'm aware of can confiscate any and all equipment that they determine is being used in any activity they deem illegal....whether right or wrong. You have the burden to prove in a court of law you are not guilty. In the meantime, you have no boat, no truck, nothing that was in your truck....you get what I'm saying.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Dman said:


> I agree 100% Chris. The problem is the laws are very vague and basically depend on what the Game Warden says. I just have chosen to not take the chance.
> 
> Game wardens in most states I'm aware of can confiscate any and all equipment that they determine is being used in any activity they deem illegal....whether right or wrong. You have the burden to prove in a court of law you are not guilty. In the meantime, you have no boat, no truck, nothing that was in your truck....you get what I'm saying.


Yes, I totally get what you're saying and you're right. The best way to avoid a radical interpretation of a law is to steer totally clear.

I can see a scenario where the local warden whom one knows well has colleague with a different mindset covering his territory. It's probably never a sure thing to go with the interpretation of guy A in a certain area on a certain day unless guy A is present. 

Things do have a way of changing.

Dman, I have an edit that I thought I'd add. How do you reconcile taking the birds from the end of a retriever event and being 100% safe from a goofy interpretation by Conservation officers? Do you always keep less than a possession limit?

Do you get receipts from the club to show the birds were legitimately purchased from a commercial game farm? 

Chris


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

First and foremost there are many good thoughts in this thread posted.


1. Understand the legal definition in the states in which you hunt/train of "wanton waste."

2. Federal laws often supercede State laws due to migratory bird laws.

3. Determine your state's legal requirements for migratory bird transporting, daily bag limits in possession , number of birds in residence possession, nature of tagging birds in your possession.

4. Have in your possession all legal paperwork to identify and support pen raised, banded or body altered game birds. I would also urge you to have a valid state hunting license.

5. Contact your local State DNR office for greater clarity and establish a personal known relationship w/them prior to engaging in training activities to prevent problems. If you intend to do this for a number of years , be prepared and do your homework.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

swliszka said:


> First and foremost there are many good thoughts in this thread posted.
> 
> 
> 1. Understand the legal definition in the states in which you hunt/train of "wanton waste."
> ...


6. Take up golf...


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## DavidC (Feb 2, 2015)

OK - This thread has been going on long enough, and no one has mentioned the Great State of Texas, so "you made me look." DISCLAIMER. I am not a lawyer, so this post should not be construed as legal advice. Sorry for the length below, but I thought a look at the printed regulations and definitions would be a good place to start.

From the 2014-2105 Texas General Hunting and Fishing Requirements/Restrictions: "It is also an offense (Class C Misdemeanor) if a person intentionally takes or *possesses* a game bird, game animal, or a fish and intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly, or with criminal negligence, fails to keep the edible portions of the bird, animal, or fish in an edible condition." *Edible condition *is defined in the same regulations as: "Fit for human consumption, but does not include any portion of a game bird, game animal, or fish that is bruised (“bloodshot”) by a bullet, shot, or arrow; otherwise destroyed as a result of harvest; decayed or rotting; or obviously infected or diseased."

The 2014 Texas Waterfowl Digest states: "*WANTON WASTE: *A reasonable effort must be made to retrieve any killed or wounded birds and any wounded bird retrieved must be immediately killed and made a part of the bag limit. After retention, the birds must be kept in an edible condition fit for human consumption."

Possession Limit is defined as follows: "The maximum number of a species that lawfully may be in one person’s possession at any time after the first day of a hunting season, except for deer, antelope, and turkey. On the first day of any open season, the possession limit is the same as the daily bag limit. After the first day, the possession limit becomes twice the daily bag limit (except for quail and some migratory birds). For all wildlife resources taken for personal consumption and for which there is a possession limit, the possession limit shall not apply after the wildlife resource has reached the possessor’s permanent residence and has been finally processed." The possession limit for ducks and dark geese is three times the daily bag limit. There is no possession limit for light geese. The possession limit for pheasants is six males.

The Waterfowl Digest defines: "*Migratory Game Birds:* All wild species of ducks, mergansers, geese, brant, coots, rails, gallinules, plovers, Wilson’s snipe or jacksnipe, woodcock, mourning doves, white-winged doves, white-tipped (white-fronted) doves, red-billed pigeons, band-tailed pigeons, shorebirds of all varieties and sandhill cranes.”  Finally, the Texas regulations also state: "*Unprotected Birds: *The only birds not protected by any state or federal law are European starlings, English sparrows, feral rock doves (common pigeon - Columba livia), and Eurasian collared-doves: these species may be killed at any time, their nests or eggs destroyed, and their feathers may be possessed."

So.....(remember the part about me not being a lawyer and this is not legal advice) It’s probably a pretty darn safe practice to train with pigeons. If you train with domestically produced, pen-raised, toe-clipped, or permanently banded ducks, it would probably be a good idea to be able to trace their origin from the original producer to your freezer or duck pen.

If you choose to train with legally harvested wild birds, I would ask myself the following questions, because they may be asked of you some day: 1)“Am I keeping the edible portions of the bird in an edible condition (ie fit for human consumption)?” 2)“Can I prove that the birds were harvested during the legally established seasons?” 3)“Am I in possession of birds in excess of the possession limit, including those birds that are more limited in harvest per day, such as scaup, wood ducks, hen mallards, etc.”

It’s not my intent to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t do in Texas. Just read the above and make up your own minds. If my analysis is incomplete or faulty, please correct or supplement what I have set forth above.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

I've asked a dozen CO's about training with birds, referring to the commercial variety, and none were confident in their answer, and all had a variant of what they would want to see. Receipt, name and address on the bird, tag or band from the seller on the bird, were the most common. I would also point out the clipped/healed hind toe used on domestic ducks.


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