# "A" list pro's



## cpj (Sep 28, 2009)

What accomplishments must a pro have in your opinion to be considered an "A" list pro? I've seen pro's mentioned as "A" list pro's before on numerous threads and sometimes thought some weren't worthy of that title. I'm not calling anyone out or trying to start a raging debate but was just wondering what criteria others use when labeling pro's.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

IMHO we're splitting hairs but A list FT pro's have trained multiple FC"s and qualified them for National Opens,been finalists....and the crowning achievement that the have won a National...just my $.02


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

If you try to come up with a list you'll forget someone or not place someone on it who thinks he or she should be.

I think it should be someone who has been in the game for quite awhile; has made multiple FC's; has had multiple national finalists; and usually has an FC on the truck, preferably more than one.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

To me someone like Jim Gonia, Mike Lardy, Dave Rorem.. etc etc is an "A" list pro. There are a ton of great pros out there!!!


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## SCOTT C. (Oct 20, 2004)

There are lots of "A" list hunt test pros as well, can't forget them.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

*(What accomplishments must a pro have in your opinion to be considered an "A" list pro? I've seen pro's mentioned as "A" list pro's before on numerous threads and sometimes thought some* *weren't worthy of that title. I'm not calling anyone out or trying to start a raging debate but was just wondering what criteria others use when labeling pro's*.Quote)

Terrible thread. It's your opinion who cares????????Who are you to label anyone good or bad?
Some Pro's don't have the quality of dogs, area they run trials in,number of Open dogs ,dedicated clients willing to spend their kids college funds or their retirement funds on dogs. Some Pro's only train young dogs and may/may not chose to run trials,some train only transition dogs.
This list is endless and your decision to use Pro. A vs. Pro. B should be based on your dog's needs,money situation ,time commitment,...
It's *not* like finding a good mechanic for your car.
Go spend the day with some and watch them work dogs "IF" you are curious. Don't label based on others performance records.Too much inbetween the lines.
Sue


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

There is one other type of Pro that doesnt run the circuit but trains some very good amateur handlers and their dogs ala Rex Carr style from days gone by...a good example of this is Cherylon Loveland,her list of clients and the dogs they have produced is growing and have produced FC's and AFC's for her well trained clients


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## cpj (Sep 28, 2009)

Sue, knew someone would get riled up, just didn't know who. Maybe it's an inferiority complex. Simply curious to find out peoples opinions since the term gets used frequently. I've already trialed with an A list pro, not looking for another. I'm in the middle of serious washers game, gotta go.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

cpj said:


> I'm in the middle of serious washers game, gotta go.


Always good to see someone keeping Internet discussion in proper perspective.


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## cpj (Sep 28, 2009)

One of these guys I'm playing with claims his son built a washer board that has LED lights and a built in stereo!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Howard N said:


> If you try to come up with a list you'll forget someone or not place someone on it who thinks he or she should be.
> 
> I think it should be someone who has been in the game for quite awhile; has made multiple FC's; has had multiple national finalists; and usually has an FC on the truck, preferably more than one.


Are we just trying to com up with _a list_ of good Pros or are we looking for the names of the "A LIST" of Retriever FT Pros ?

The best known A List is a list of the most bankable movie stars in Hollywood.
These are the stars that are the complete package and their association with a movie,alone will be enough to guarantee its success.

Carrying *that* analogy over to Retriever FT, the list is not as long as some would have you think.

If I were to start one for the Top ten active "A List Pros", it would be Farmer and Lardy as numbers one and two with Lardy having been bumped fron the number one spot which he had held for quite a few years 

For the other eight placements you all can fight that out ..... but I will say this in passing that for me, the stay at home Pros who do not run trials, whose list of clients does not not include even one of the top 10 Amateurs in the country, whose dogs/clients have never won a National much less quite a few, whose, whose, whose,.......don't fill the bill 

So based on the criteria above who would are the other eight ?

The proof of the pudding..... regards

john


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

FWIW, I will take a shot at it with Lardy and Farmer alone in their own category, the next ten ALPHABETICALLY

Arthur

Attar

Eckett

Gonia

Kiernan

Pleasant , A

Remien

Rorem

Sargenti

Totten

and then the following all at # 11

Trott,Mosher ,Ward,Dewey,L.Pleasant,Gunzer,Schrader,Milligan,Brasseaux along with about a dozen others and any others I may have forgotten

I have to admit my list has a definite west coast bias because I do not know any of the pros in the east side of the country..I based my list on the # of dogs each had in the 09 National,past winners,reputation,and personal opinion.....

I do think the " A list" has a direct correlation to the " A list " clients that feed the pros the dogs from the top breedings year in year out,so that mythical list changes from year to year based on who they may have on their truck


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> FWIW, I will take a shot at it with Lardy and Farmer alone in their own category, the next ten ALPHABETICALLY
> 
> Arthur
> 
> ...


Definitely a Left Coast bias ;-). Patti Kiernan on a list and not Dave/Mark Mosher? Rick Roberts? Bound to miss someone, I guess.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I believe the original question was not who is on the "list", but for you what criteria makes you think of a trainer as an "A-list" pro.

It looks like we're talking about field trials, so for me to consider a FT pro an "A-list" pro, he or she would need to consistently place in the ribbons at weekend trials with a variety of dogs, regularly qualify mulitple dogs for the National, and occasionally finish a national. That would be a start.
On the other hand, for young dog trainers, I would say that someone who places a lot of dogs on "A-list" AA pro trucks and those dogs go on to title. Having a relatively low washout rate would be a plus, also. One man's opinion.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

cpj said:


> One of these guys I'm playing with claims his son built a washer board that has LED lights and a built in stereo!


Made me laugh, but I'd have no trouble believing him.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

So Mr. CPJ,(with 69 posts and member since 9/09)
I have an inferiority complex. That's a laugh.
You have elected yourself the person in charge of who is worthy and NOT worth to be listed on the TOP "A" list of F.T. Pro.
A person that doesn't use his/her name?
Riled up No just tired of persons that are uneducated and shoot their mouth off on the internet. 
These Pro's (ladies and gentleman) all have families and work very hard in a sport that is very competitive and very demanding of their time, and patience.I find it offense to them and their families.
Like I stated before........

Some Pro's don't have the quality of dogs, area they run trials in,number of Open dogs ,dedicated clients willing to spend their kids college funds or their retirement funds on dogs. Some Pro's only train young dogs and may/may not chose to run trials,some train only transition dogs.
This list is endless and your decision to use Pro. A vs. Pro. B should be based on your dog's needs,money situation ,time commitment,...
*Being a "PRO." probably one of the hardest jobs*
Like I said ,GO and watch these people work before shooting your mouth off.
Respectfully submitted and experienced,
Sue Kiefer (member PRTA)


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> FWIW, I will take a shot at it with Lardy and Farmer alone in their own category, the next ten ALPHABETICALLY
> 
> Arthur
> 
> ...


I can't help but notice that you have Lardy and Farmer out of order ALPHABETICALLY on their plateau..... is this an understated way of indicating that you differ from my position on their ranking on the LIST ?;-) 

john


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

john fallon said:


> I can't help but notice that you have Lardy and Farmer out of order ALPHABETICALLY on their plateau..... is this an understated way of indicating that you differ from my position on their ranking on the LIST ?;-)
> 
> john


Not at all I think Farmer and Lardy or Lardy and Farmer are in a class by themselves. I was just trying to answer your question,but I somewhat agree with your premise about the two of them...

Are there any stats that show how many points a pro has attained in a year or how many Open wins they have in a year ?


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Couple of my thoughts:

- Some of the bigger name pros gets a very high volume of dogs to look at and work with, and then cull the numbers down. Whereas some of the others have to make due with the hand that they are dealt. 

- Look at the pros who are consistently there in the last series. But to take it a step further, does it say something when a pro who has 12 dogs entered ends up with 6 in the last series vs a pro who has 18 who has 6? I think so.

- And there are pros who have very wealthy clients. And these individuals usually have really nice dogs. Ever wondered how many dogs they went through to get down to those 3-4 really good ones? I have. 

- To me, a Pro who always gets his share (or more) of dogs to the last series, gets multiple wins in a year, and titles dogs is an "A" list pro.

But that's just me.


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## Wayne Beck (Mar 22, 2010)

Sue Kiefer said:


> So Mr. CPJ,(with 69 posts and member since 9/09)
> I have an inferiority complex. That's a laugh.


Sounds like some kind of complex if you have to belittle this person for the number of posts they have. So this makes you so much better because you have 800 posts in 4 years? Thats a 1/2 a post a day.. 

So this guy is new and you want to rip him? WTF.. Why couldnt you do it in a PM? Its this kind of behavior that keeps some new people from posting because God forbid they may upset someone and get an earful.. 

You also said its a terrible thread. If you dont like it dont reply to it..


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## cpj (Sep 28, 2009)

SUE, I ran trials for a few years, placed in both all-age venues, qual's and derbies. Used an A list pro and watched most of the top pro's in the country at every trial I ran. I've also judged every stake. Am I still as uneducated as you claim? I'm trying to create an interesting discussion and get a glimpse of other peoples perceptions since the A list term gets thrown around from time to time. I'm sorry that you don't know me by my initials, I bet some down here know who I am. I guess you figure I'm unworthy of opinion since my post count doesn't meet some magical number in your head, however I used to post under an old nickname and had a whole lot more posts than you. I've also been a member of this forum longer than you. You are starting to sound alot like another pro on this forum. You're right, your job ranks right up there with Bering Sea crab fisherman on the difficulty scale. In closing Sue, you might want to think before you post, your attitude will turn off potential clients.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

I'll attempt to answer the OP's question, which is "what", not "who"?

An "A" list pro to me is one that regularly gets multiple placements in the Open and has a string of dogs that can be in the mix in the end. They almost always qualify multiple dogs for the National and almost always finish at least one.

This is just a start. Gotta go to a family function. 

John


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

This sounds like a great thread to make the list of who's, who. I would think that this list would be rather small if all the names that have been mentioned were on a level playing field with each other. And that's not taking anything away from the great accomplishments of those listed.

What I have heard here is that if it were not for the rich clients with their endless flow of cash, a great number of dogs that get washed out, being in the last series consistantly, are things to be looked at in making your decision on a "A" list or "B" list pro. What about being a good salesman? That's what most are. Most are very likable and have a line to sell there whares.

How many of these pro's take a dog through the basics to FC? Most of these so called "A" list pro's only take dogs through transition to run the Open stakes. So what you are grading is the finished product. How many dogs have these pro's gone through to get to the point to where they have a truck load of dogs that are competitive.

How about we take all the "A" list so called pro's give them each 10 scrubs that don't know squat and see how competitive they are, and then make your list. 


I guess someone forgot to tell Scott Dewey. I didn't see his name on your list all while he is silently kicking the crap out of the competition lately.

How silly.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Barry said:


> This sounds like a great thread to make the list of who's, who. I would think that this list would be rather small if all the names that have been mentioned were on a level playing field with each other. And that's not taking anything away from the great accomplishments of those listed.
> 
> *What I have heard here is that if it were not for the rich clients with their endless flow of cash, a great number of dogs that get washed out, being in the last series consistantly, *are things to be looked at in making your decision on a "A" list or "B" list pro. What about being a good salesman? That's what most are. Most are very likable and have a line to sell there whares.
> 
> ...


thats what I tried to convey in my earlier statement...A list pros have majority of A list clients

and if you look I did not overlook Scott Dewey, he used to run my brother's dogs a few yrs back..lots of respect for him..had him at a group @ # 11..


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> What about being a good salesman? That's what most are. Most are very likable and have a line to sell there whares.


Indeed. One or two of the "top" names comes to mind here. Some actually target dogs on other trucks and go after their owners with their sales pitch.



> How many of these pro's take a dog through the basics to FC? Most of these so called "A" list pro's only take dogs through transition to run the Open stakes. So what you are grading is the finished product. How many dogs have these pro's gone through to get to the point to where they have a truck load of dogs that are competitive.


Bingo. Look at the pros who take dogs from FF and through the Qual, and then are competitive at the AA level. This to me is what's immensely important and speaks volumes of about a given professional. I know mine had to take my dog all the way back through basics, but won an Open with her less than 12 months later.




> I guess someone forgot to tell Scott Dewey. I didn't see his name on your list all while he is silently kicking the crap out of the competition lately.


I would say that Scott Dewey has probably had the hottest truck so far this year. He has some very dedicated owners who have some very nice dogs. I would put him right up there with the best right now.

Interesting, one of the guys on the aforementioned list, couldn't do squat down here in Texas against 5-6 or six of the top level pros, but now is back on the East Coast and getting some wins. Just sayin'.....


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Surely noone is gonna suggest the top couple of guys couldn''t take a dog through basic ob, ff, cc etc. They simply don't have to anymore. I can assure you they didn't wake up one morning and say gonna run ft dogs and people loaded their trucks with quality competitors.

Seems like that is what some are sayin just sayin regards,


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Sue Kiefer said:


> So Mr. CPJ,(with 69 posts and member since 9/09)



Hot Damn! I been here 5 years and posted nearly 3000 times. That must make me a freak'in genius!

Wish I had the ribbons to prove it...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I see a lot of parallels with horse racing ...Bob Baffert and DW Lukas used to be at the top of the heap and both lost their # 1 clients due to their untimely demise and it literally wiped out their stables and taken them a few years to recover

Dog Trainers are the same way...God forbid the Bechtels, Stroud- Swingle,Aul's and other deep pocketed individuals ever get out of the game, because many pros would be affected permanently


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> Surely noone is gonna suggest the top couple of guys couldn''t take a dog through basic ob, ff, cc etc. They simply don't have to anymore.


They obviously can, and will for the right clients.

But for the people out there who may only have one or two bullets to shoot, then a pro who consistently shows he can (and is willing to) take a dog from the derby to being a competitive all-age dog is important.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> I see a lot of parallels with horse racing ...Bob Baffert and DW Lukas used to be at the top of the heap and both lost their # 1 clients due to their untimely demise and it literally wiped out their stables and taken them a few years to recover
> 
> Dog Trainers are the same way...God forbid the Bechtels, Stroud- Swingle,Aul's and other deep pocketed individuals ever get out of the game, because many pros would be affected permanently


Baffert and Lucas both started in obscure locations with QHorses but the cream always rises to the top but to get the top you have to know how to do the dirty work I'm sure its the same with dogs. You don't see CEO's making the widgets either.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

duk4me said:


> Baffert and Lucas both started in obscure locations with QHorses but the cream always rises to the top but to get the top you have to know how to do the dirty work I'm sure its the same with dogs. You don't see CEO's making the widgets either.


No but you see a lot of CEO's step into a business that don't know what a widget is. 

For the cream to rise to the top it has to be good. 

To quote a pro that I used to know,"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s++t".


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Barry said:


> No but you see a lot of CEO's step into a business that don't know what a widget is.
> 
> For the cream to rise to the top it has to be good.
> 
> To quote a pro that I used to know,"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s++t".


That is correct and the ones that don't understand the widget generally fail before it is all said and done.

We are in total agreement for the cream to rise to the top they have to be good but my point was on an earlier post that those top two or three have already done the dirty work and understand how to get there. Truly successful people know how to delegate and train people under them.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

junfan68 said:


> They obviously can, and will for the right clients.
> 
> But for the people out there who may only have one or two bullets to shoot, then a pro who consistently shows he can (and is willing to) take a dog from the derby to being a competitive all-age dog is important.


Yep and if that pro can get to the level of the one or two he will do the exact same thing and who can blame them? What trainer would choose to do all the dirty work when he can hire it done and get all the glory for the championships? I wouldn't but hell I'm just a farmer. lol .....no my name ain't Danny.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Dont even need a widget anymore....just sell carbon credits and get rich....hahhahhaaa


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

Some of these trucks remind me of the New York Yankees in baseball.

They have people who can go out and pay up for dogs that have proven themselves in the minors and then bring them onto the truck. They can cycle a bunch of dogs through and keep the ones that show the most promise.

The rest of the teams have to bring them up themselves through their farm system.

While I have always been impressed by the Yankees, and give them the respect they are due, I tend to root for the underdogs.


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

A threads with some derivative of an “A List” pro discussion come up about once a month, and I have yet to see any mention of what would be my number one consideration.

What percentage of the dogs a pro has trained to the FC dogs have also earned the AFC title. There are pros who can train and handle dogs but not all can train the owner/handler/clients or train the dogs in such a manner that the owner can continue to train and handle the dog(s).


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Jim Pickering said:


> What percentage of the dogs a pro has trained to the FC dogs have also earned the AFC title. There are pros who can train and handle dogs but not all can train the owner/handler/clients or train the dogs in such a manner that the owner can continue to train and handle the dog(s).


That is a very interesting criterion. I like it.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

How about if we use a pinch hitter to handle for the owner, Would that work? 

john


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

john fallon said:


> How about if we use a pinch hitter to handle for the owner, Would that work?
> 
> john


Hmmmm... Not a pro but pinch hitter... Could you still run the Amature?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Barry said:


> Hmmmm... Not a pro but pinch hitter... *Could you still run the Amature*?


Designated handler (pinch hitter not much difference)As long as it was not an OH of course.

john


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Designated handler (pinch hitter not much difference)As long as it was not an OH of course.
> 
> john


Instead of co-owner, substitute owner with power of attorney. That should work.


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## bell (Apr 20, 2009)

Going off my criteria I think Wayne Curtis is an A list pro..


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## DKR (May 9, 2003)

I remember reading or seeing it on a video sometime way back about when Danny Farmer was starting out he was going to trials in a minivan with plastic crates inside. (or something like that)

It’s been sometime since I’ve seen him, but the last time I did he had a license plate on his truck that said 3 X NFC on it. BTW it was a Texas plate.



It’s been shown that the greats in dance, singing, sports, racing, science whatever the endeavor may be, have spent an average of 10,000 hours perfecting their craft.


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## rds7015 (May 19, 2006)

I guess you are looking for a wish list of dog trainers. The way I look at it, it has to be the one you would use. What good is an A list trainer, if you dont use him/her. My A list pro would be able to take my dog as far as the dog was capable of going. If I dont want my dog trained with ecollar will or can he/she train that way with the results that I expect. All the names of pro trainers dont mean much to me. Why, they have not trained for me. If you go by results, go to the record book and stack rank by wins????????????????
My dog Reba has been trained by my friend and pro Chris LaCross. He went above and beyond in training her. I did not lose one bird this hunting season. What more do you want. Just a dog that is better trained than you expect.

Jim Schaefer

Ps, had the pleasure of meeting Mr Farmer and his wife, really great people.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

junfan68 said:


> I would say that Scott Dewey has probably had the hottest truck so far this year.


Hmm, you probably haven't been watching Sargenti's record this year. ;-) And back to Mr. Pickering's point (interesting by the way though not necessarily a reflection on the pros but on their clients' availability to run trials, myself included), he has one client with 3 dogs qualified for the National Amateur, another with his Golden qualified to run and I would need to sit down to figure out how many other clients are qualified. (And it's worth mentioning Sargenti had the most dogs at last year's National.) And yes, I am biased. 

I'm not going to make a list of who I believe to be the top 10 pros, but it is criminal that no one has mentioned Jerry Patopea who "only"  trained/handled the 2009 Top Open Dog. I think he may have trained a few other decent dogs in his day as well.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I think he may have trained a few other decent dogs in his day as well.


Yeah, he probably trained a decent dog or two. Finished a national or two also.

I believe Aces Hi was a hi point open dog or damn close to it.

4 finishers in one nat'l.

He knows which end of a dog to feed.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Howard N said:


> I believe Aces Hi was a hi point open dog or damn close to it.


Yep. Twice.

http://www.aceshighiii.com/AboutWillie.html


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Completely forgot Jerry Patopea, definitely Top 10....no doubt about it


for the record Al Arthur, Bill Sargenti, and Dave Rorem all had 7 dogs qualified/entered in the 09 National..Farmer was next with 6 and Alan Pleasant had 5


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> Hmm, you probably haven't been watching Sargenti's record this year. ;-) And back to Mr. Pickering's point (interesting by the way though not necessarily a reflection on the pros but on their clients' availability to run trials, myself included), he has one client with 3 dogs qualified for the National Amateur, another with his Golden qualified to run and I would need to sit down to figure out how many other clients are qualified. (And it's worth mentioning Sargenti had the most dogs at last year's National.) And yes, I am biased.
> 
> I'm not going to make a list of who I believe to be the top 10 pros, but it is criminal that no one has mentioned Jerry Patopea who "only"  trained/handled the 2009 Top Open Dog. I think he may have trained a few other decent dogs in his day as well.


No doubt he is an "A" list pro. He also has a client that will pay anything for the dogs she wants.

No disrespect to the the circuit out west, but I dont' think anyone would argue that the Texas circuit late fall/early spring is the toughest by a mile.....

Eckett, Farmer, Rorem, Gunzer, Schrader, Edwards, Milligan, Dewey, Erhardt, and some others I forgot to mention.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> FWIW, I will take a shot at it with Lardy and Farmer alone in their own category, the next ten ALPHABETICALLY
> 
> Arthur
> 
> ...


How many on your A-list have clients that spend big $ on young AA dogs that thier pro suggest they buy and put on thier truck? With many of those purchased young AA dogs getting washed out.

There is a difference between a dog trainer that is a good business person and one that has a special talent and does it all.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Franco said:


> How many on your A-list have clients that spend big $ on young AA dogs that thier pro suggest they buy and put on thier truck? With many of those purchased young AA dogs getting washed out.
> 
> There is a difference between a dog trainer that is a good business person and one that has a special talent and does it all.


You beat me to it Frank. But I think is should be a "good marketing person". Also what is better, someone that shows up with 20 dogs open and finishes 2 or someone that shows up with 4 open dogs and finshes 2-3 every weekend.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

rboudet said:


> You beat me to it Frank. But I think is should be a "good marketing person". Also what is better, someone that shows up with 20 dogs open and finishes 2 or someone that shows up with 4 open dogs and finshes 2-3 every weekend.


Because that Pro that shows up with a much smaller truck of dogs is a poor "marketing person" and doesn't have the smoothes tact with clients, maybe being too honest and blunt with them about thier dogs yet, gets the most out of what they have. 

I pick "C".;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I don't care for a pro whose style includes a lot of calling back or burning back so one person's A list pro may not be another person's pick for his particular dog. I think ranking them based on results can be biased. I have a lot more respect for a pro that isn't afraid to take on a bit of a challenge than always being presented with the best product. IMHO.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

The question has been asked before: "If you could train with any pro for a (week, summer, year...you fill in the blank), who would you choose?" Or, "If you could put your dog on any pro's truck for a year, whose would it be?" Take money out of the question (let's assume that it's not a problem), and let's assume that you've got what you believe is an A-list dog (now there's another thread possibility!), on par with Lean Mac, Honcho, Rocky (forgive my ignorance of the A-list dogs). Who would you choose? The names that come to mind would probably include your personal A-list. You can downplay a pro's success by mentioning the money that the owners throw at the game (which is unbelievable), or saying it's all marketing hype. But if YOU had the resources, where would you send your dog? Who would you want to train YOU? 
Other good aspects that were mentioned were the percentage of dogs a pro gets to FC and/or AFC, the sheer number of dogs that the pro trains to FC and/or AFC, national qualifiers, national finishes, national wins. Who would you send your puppy to? Who would you send your transition dog to? Who would you send your AA dog to? I believe that answering these types of questions would greatly simplify your answers to the OP's question- what makes a true A-list pro? 

As for the baseball analogy, do the Yankees pay out all that money just to get wins (and bragging rights)? Or is it a business? Fans are willing to pay more to watch a winning team, so a winning team can afford to pay higher salaries, and still turn a profit (unless the Yankees owner enjoys a VERY expensive hobby).


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

My list of FT Pro's who are "A" list are the ones that will run a test dog, be at the stake they are asked to, on Sunday help get the trial done and stick around to pick up a ribbon even if its a JAM.

The trial does not put on itself regards.....


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

junfan68 said:


> , but I dont' think anyone would argue that the Texas circuit late fall/early spring is the toughest by a mile.....
> 
> .


Let us not forget the Georgia contingent......


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

The "A List" , like "creme de la creme", is a superlative, and as such its use should be restricted to describe those who that in every measurable aspect are at the top of their profession.They are *the best of the best*.

Simply being very very very good at what one is not always good enough to warrant this distinction. I am starting to see the names of some trainers being listed who fall into this catagory ;-)


john


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Beyond the obvious (ability to read dogs, hard working, etc.), for me an "A-List" Pro is one who --

1. Loves dogs, and that is the first and foremost reason he is in the business;

2. Takes excellent care of his client dogs, as good or better than he does his own;

3. Is fair to the dogs he trains, giving them every chance possible to learn and complete a lesson or task, so as to meet their maximum potential; 

4. Is honest in EVERY respect;

5. Is realistic in EVERY respect;

6. Is an ambassador for the game, friendly and open with newbies and old-timers alike; 

7. Knows success is not measured in the numbers of ribbons or points, but rather the finished retriever.


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

kevin

one of the best posts in years. 
enough said
trog


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Franco said:


> Because that Pro that shows up with a much smaller truck of dogs is a poor "marketing person" and doesn't have the smoothes tact with clients, maybe being too honest and blunt with them about thier dogs yet, gets the most out of what they have.
> 
> I pick "C".;-)


I'm with ya on that, but Ill take blunt and honest over sugar coating a turd any day.


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> There is one other type of Pro that doesnt run the circuit but trains some very good amateur handlers and their dogs ala Rex Carr style from days gone by...a good example of this is Cherylon Loveland,her list of clients and the dogs they have produced is growing and have produced FC's and AFC's for her well trained clients


I would have to agree with this, I know a few of Cherylon's clients and they have all done well competing with the big boys. Using the Rex approach, how good are you at training the handler that is successful in training its own dog is another measuring stick to take stock of. If you gauge success on results, which results to you value the most? Titles and ribbons or titles and ribbons of ones you taught?


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

junfan68 said:


> No doubt he is an "A" list pro. He also has a client that will pay anything for the dogs she wants.


No doubt, as do at least a couple of other pros on the right coast. Since this owner could choose anyone she wanted to train her dogs, makes ya think she believes these guys are on the A list, no? 

Back to Mr. Pickering's post, I would imagine the majority of the dogs on Mosher's truck will never see an Amateur stake in their lifetime so it's tough to judge a pro on how successful their amateur clients are.

ps Oops, didn't mean to come across as a smart a$$ by repeating no doubt. I didn't realize you had just said until my response was posted. Lord knows I would never want to come across as a smart a$$. ;-) (But I'm serious this time.)


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

AmiableLabs said:


> Beyond the obvious (ability to read dogs, hard working, etc.), for me an "A-List" Pro is one who --
> 
> 1. Loves dogs, and that is the first and foremost reason he is in the business;


Good one, Kevin. I have a couple of examples to share from the folks I know best.

I was at a National at the Boatright Ranch in I don't know what year. It was the 9th series and I was standing with Billy chatting about somethingorother. When Totten walked to the line with Dust Devil's Shoot the Moon, he basically "shushed" me so he could watch Shooter run the quad. (And this wasn't about strategy, it was about watching that specific dog do the test.) A man who watches dogs day in and day out "for a living" that is still so fascinated with watching dog work is someone who loves the dogs.

And of course I will bring up Jerry again. Remember, I know these guys the best because of where I live. Jerry is known to consistently talk about his "work" and how incredible every day is to be able to get out and train these dogs. There was a recent post on Facebook where he was eating a peanut butter & banana sandwich sitting in a holding blind and he said something like "does life get any better than this?" 

He sent out an email when Kimber was a National Amateur finalist last year about being the best you can be that gave me the chills because it was so inspirational and I know it reflects his outlook on life. 

I hope others will share their experiences with the pros they know.


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

When Ms Foster announced her return I thought about starting a pool on how long it would take before Ms Foster crossed the line again. I would have given her 30 days; 27 days thus far and only one foot over the line twice. Let’s see how she handles this one. :evil:

For the others out there I have no reason to think that Bill Sargenti is not an excellent trainer given that I have not met the man nor seen him training dogs. The point being that this is not about Bill Sargenti; this is in reply to Ms Foster who has now mentioned my name in the second of her posts on this thread. *So let’s get ready to rumble.*



Melanie Foster said:


> No doubt, as do at least a couple of other pros on the right coast. Since this owner could choose anyone she wanted to train her dogs, makes ya think she believes these guys are on the A list, no?


Assuming you and junfam68 are talking about the same individual that comes to my mind, this person has dogs with the other pros who are not now and likely will never be on anyone’s “A List”. Suffice it to say that you are not well informed on this matter and as a result you assumption is not valid.



> Back to Mr. Pickering's post, I would imagine the majority of the dogs on Mosher's truck will never see an Amateur stake in their lifetime so it's tough to judge a pro on how successful their amateur clients are.


Not if you know what you are talking about and you want a dog trained so that you could handle it. But just to check are you suggesting that either Dave or Mark would put all or most of their eggs in one basket by choice? While I have a low opinion of Dave based on personal experience, stupidity is not a characteristic I would attribute to him.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

DKR said:


> I remember reading or seeing it on a video sometime way back about when Danny Farmer was starting out he was going to trials in a minivan with plastic crates inside. (or something like that)


I wrote about this a while back on one of the many Pro threads.

First time I met Danny was around 1977. He came to run the So. La. Spring trial. That Spring, the spillway was flooding by the Mississippi River so we moved the trail to the old Wild Wing grounds near Folsum, La.

I asked someone who's the guy with the dogs in crates stacked in a white van? 

It was Danny and I remember shaking my head after introducing myself to him as I was kind of feeling sorry for him. I was thinking; poor guy, doesn't know what he's getting into.

This was the days before the southern retriever pros were building empires and flying around in Citations.

The biggest dog rig I had ever witnessed to date was Tommy Sorensen's, when he would run SLRC. Tommy had 4-6 clients in the New Orleans area and he was da man, at the time!


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

Dang Jim, you're losing your touch.

But I appreciate that you've been reading my every post and you know the exact amount of days I've been back on RTF. It feels so good to be loved.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

bell said:


> Going off my criteria I think Wayne Curtis is an A list pro..


I do too based on the criteria that most folks have mentioned above.


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## verne socks (Feb 11, 2010)

Brian Cockfield said:


> I do too based on the criteria that most folks have mentioned above.


Definately agree as I have trained with Wayne Curtis & a number of the other top pros. Wayne is definately among the best!


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## trog (Apr 25, 2004)

let us discuss criteria and leave "big money clients" out of the picture and just focus on the dogs

How many field champions has the trainer produced?

How many clients have put an AFC on their dogs?

How many dogs has the trainer qualified for the "big dance"

How many dogs have the clients qualified for the other "big dance"

You need to look nationally - not regionally - some people say look at TX during the winter I don't know much about this circuit so can't comment nor will I talk about the Ward, Attar, Lardy, Curtis connection in wisconsin

It is not marketting it is all about producing and training with the techniques you like to see your dog trained with - you like heavy pressure - go there - you like light pressure go with that trainer etc - won't go the AMISH route

Yes most trainers have an A list client but they must fill the truck with other dogs - what is the longevity with the trainers - was with Mike Lardy from 1982 to 1990 something and then went with his assistant Andy Attar from then until present - still perfectly satisfied with Andy and would be with Mike - does that make them an A list - yes - do they have the qualifications/success I am interested in yes


We are beating this to death

trog


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