# Yet another case of pit bull killing



## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

85 year old Rosie Humphries just returned from doctors visit to get the good news of how great her health was. She went for a walk with her pet poodle and both were attacked and killed. The pit has been put down. They have not decided if charges will be filled agaisnt the owners of the dog. The dog was a friendly pet right up until the time it snapped and killed the woman and her dog. The dogs owners have refused to comment.

Link to storyhttp://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=190726


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Here's the link:


http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=190726


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

A tragic outcome for the elderly woman. 

I work in the inner city, the core of violence. On the streets they refer to this as clicking. It is like something goes off in the dog and they turn violent. That is why Detroit ASPCA euthanizes a high number of Pit bulls regardless if they come from fighting backgrounds or not.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Dog was probably not raised right, and the old lady probably antagonized him.....


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Creek Retrievers said:


> A tragic outcome for the elderly woman.
> 
> I work in the inner city, the core of violence. On the streets they refer to this as clicking. It is like something goes off in the dog and they turn violent. That is why Detroit ASPCA euthanizes a high number of Pit bulls regardless if they come from fighting backgrounds or not.


As well they should.....


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

Billie said:


> As well they should.....


No disagreement here.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Steve Amrein said:


> 85 walk with her pet poodle .....killed the woman and her dog. Link to storyhttp://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=190726



Sad story all the way around. I can't help but wonder what she was doing as the pit bull was attacking her poodle. Sorry, but the only bite marks on me would have been on my backside as I was fleeing the scene....if you know what I mean. 

Sad.

Yet another reason why I think we (dog owners) have a responsibility to train our dogs (I'm referring to the pit bull not being properly trained...not the poodle).

Sad story all the way around.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2009)

Man, how do you live with the fact that your dog killed a human being???? How sad for Mrs. Humphries and her family... That one dog killed both human and dog is really scary.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Man, how do you live with the fact that your dog killed a human being???? How sad for Mrs. Humphries and her family... That one dog killed both human and dog is really scary.


Make no mistake about it. That too is a sad aspect of the story. 

Clearly, the biggest victims are the poodle and the old lady, but I can't help but have sadness in my heart for the pit bull owner too.

Sad story all the way around.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

TN_LAB said:


> Make no mistake about it. That too is a sad aspect of the story.
> 
> Clearly, the biggest victims are the poodle and the old lady, but I can't help but have sadness in my heart for the pit bull owner too.
> 
> Sad story all the way around.


So if I put a pole in my front yard and strapped a grenade to it kid hi so the could reach the pin would you fell bad for me ? 

I hope the dog owners wake up everyday hearing the screams of the dying woman and her dog.


Sorry TN Lab to be so harsh


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

TNlab, your the only one on this post that I agree with. It's a little scary how willing everyone else on this topic is so quick to want to kill all the pit bulls. Of course, it's someone else having their dog put down not them. So why not.
I'd have shot that dog in a heartbeat if I'd been there, but as horrible as that story is, I'm not willing to slaughter every pit bull because of it. I had 4 pit bull rescues in the house at one point in my life, every one of them from fighting yards. 3 of the 4 wouldn't start a fight with another dog unless they were attacked. The one that would start a fight, was the one that slept in bed with my wife and I. The other 3 slept with my kids. Till the day it was time to say goodbye, they were some of the best dogs I've owned. 
You should think of somebody coming to take your dogs before you all start talking so tough.
Walt


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## Gawthorpe (Oct 4, 2007)

Walt:
Congratulations on your first post on this site. There must be a pit bull site that you might be familiar with. Try looking these up for future posting areas.

www.pitbullfasterthanbullets
www.pitbullsmakegreathats
www.pitbullsturnyourback, lose your ass

Hope you enjoy the humor as I did your first post.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

gawthorpe
Clever. 
8 years and still green eh? I can see why pit bulls would scare you. 
Walt


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

i have been attacked by a pit bull. i have felt the jaws clinch tightly on my leg and not let go. i survived with only bruises because i kept my cool. went back with the sheriff and we were shown what a nice family dog it was, playing with children.

and it was. i saw it and believe it. the conclusion is even the nice, well-treated family dogs can be dangerous. so i dont want to hear about how some of them are just friendly great family dogs. they may be, but those types can and will kill too given the right circumstance.

"kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out"


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Let's not turn this thread into personal attacks against other posters.

Play nice.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Holly crap!! You were bitten? Then by all means, let's kill em all.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Holly crap!! You were bitten? Then by all means, let's kill em all.


i knew you'd come around! ;-)


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

david gibson said:


> "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out"


I knew I liked you David...


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## TexasEd (Jul 28, 2008)

If you run from a dog like that it only turns up the prey drive to chase and attack. Kind of like withholding retrieves from your retriever.


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## Michael Pearrow (Oct 20, 2009)

This breed of dogs should be banned from all cities across the country .


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Is it really true that most everyone on this forum is for wiping out pit bulls?? I haven't met anyone in this sport, up till now, that seemed capable of even thinking about something like this. I thought we were all dog lovers.
Walt


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

david gibson said:


> i have been attacked by a pit bull. i have felt the jaws clinch tightly on my leg and not let go. i survived with only bruises because i kept my cool. went back with the sheriff and we were shown what a nice family dog it was, playing with children.
> 
> and it was. i saw it and believe it. the conclusion is even the nice, well-treated family dogs can be dangerous. so i dont want to hear about how some of them are just friendly great family dogs. they may be, but those types can and will kill too given the right circumstance.
> 
> "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out"


I agree David. My friend was checking her mail box by the road. She had her daughter in the stroller as they were going for a walk afterwards. A man walked by with his pitbull and wham, the pitbull went for her daughter. Her daughter was two at the time and required plastic surgery on her face. The dog was euthanized by the owner's request the same day at animal control. Her daughter is 8 years old now and does okay with dogs. That pitbull was suppose to be great with the owner's family too. 

I am in social work and have had the pleasure of having one of my clients let her pitbulls loose as I approached the residence. Needless to say I made a beeline to my vehicle and did not wait to see if they were going to be nice or have me for dinner.


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## Stephen S. (Sep 14, 2005)

I was bitten on the face and arm last year when a pit came into my yard, and attacked me and my dogs... we all survived, and are ok, becuase like David my adrenaline overcame the pit, and i didnt freak out and run... 

Its amazing how different your views are when youre in the ER, and your dogs are at the vet, and the owners of the pit are mad becuase their dog was put down... 

Life aint fair, but we can level the playing field a bit more...


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Not sure I agree with killing or shipping off all pit bulls in my city like Denver has but to be honest I wouldn't lose sleep over it. The last pit I came across in the area I exercise my pup was pulling his owner to my dog with teeth exposed. Luckly he was on a leash.


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

With young children at my house, pit bulls will not be tolerated in this neighborhood. Fortunately, the 4 neighbors we have in this area all agree, and own labs and goldens anyway. Pits are bred to fight. Just like our dogs are bred to retrieve. We can train our dogs to be steady, but they will all break at some point. What happens when pit bulls "break"? Everyone seems so concerned about the dangers of guns in the house, but I see nothing on a similar scale concerned about pit bulls in neighborhoods with children or elderly. The difference between a gun and a pit bull, is a pit bull WILL jump up and kill you!


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

dnf777 Isn't it the same way of thinking though? Guns kill, get rid of them. Pit Bulls owned by gigantic bags of monkey crap, kill. Lets get rid of them too. How can we justify keeping our guns if that's the way we feel about these dogs?
Walt


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## kftopgun (Mar 24, 2009)

Pits, as a whole, have a propensity for aggression. Not all are aggressive by any stretch, but many are. I don't know why you would really want one for anything other than a hog catch dog. I don't like, nor do I trust them.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> dnf777 Isn't it the same way of thinking though? Guns kill, get rid of them. Pit Bulls owned by gigantic bags of monkey crap, kill. Lets get rid of them too. How can we justify keeping our guns if that's the way we feel about these dogs?
> Walt


 
Guns are inatament objects that require someone or something to pull the trigger. Cars dont kill at will either the list can go on. In your sparetime look up the CDC reports about which dogs kill.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I just posted this because its close to home. I am sure nationwide I can find a story like this every week.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

This is similiar to what happened to an older lady in Texas who was mowing her lawn and was killed by several Pit Bull and Rottie mixes. She was mauled so badly that the EMS said that they did not know that the victim was a human.

The result was Lillian's Law in Texas either in 2008 or 2009. Any attack by a dog can now result in a felony charge and likely conviction for the owner. Prison...


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Here's my two cents. I live and work in New York City. I have seen maybe 300 pitbulls in my adult life. They are a favorite in certain neighborhoods. I see pitbulls off lead . I see 10 year girls "walking" pitbulls. I see pitbulls pulling their owners in every direction. I see pitbulls off lead in dog parks. I see criminal types with pitbulls. I never feel confident that these dogs are trained or that their owners can physically control them. Therefore every pitbull that I see I consider as being dangerous. Now I have a new next door neighbor who is in his 70's. He has his daughter's pitbull. I'm anticipating a problem.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

OK steve, I'll do that. While I do, ask any pro you know which breed of retriever is most likely to bite them. I bet they look like the dogs in your avatar. Oh yes I did!
By the way, I know the diference between a dog and a gun. The post was about narrow minded people only seeing things their way.
Walt


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> OK steve, I'll do that. While I do, ask any pro you know which breed of retriever is most likely to bite them. I bet they look like the dogs in your avatar. Oh yes I did!
> By the way, I know the diference between a dog and a gun. The post was about narrow minded people only seeing things their way.
> Walt


Thanks walt I am sure either the lab or golden is a dog that will bite but I cant remember seeing any woman killed by lab, golden or chia-whoa-whoa's.

Cockers are notorios child biters but I am afraid the difference is the difference betweeen a few stitches and DEATH.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I guess I better write something, because a few RTF'ers know about the newest member of my family. Now's as good a time as any to make it public.

Maybe sometime I'll post pictures of our little "Vi" aka "Violet". She's an approximately 6-month-old rescue dog. She's probably at least part Pit Bull Terrier. She may be full pit.... who knows? As one of my close friends has suggested, maybe she's a Staffordshire Terrier mix, and not a pit. (Doesn't "Staffie mix" sound so much more palatable than "pit mix"?)

We put Maili down at age 15 about 2 months ago. Little Maili was the last of our "canine Brady Bunch" that at one point was 4 labradors, half hers, half mine from our single days. After 2 weeks of mourning Maili's death, my family began scanning the local animal shelters and they fell in love with a little purplish-blue dog. After lots of debate, lots of visiting and evaluating, we agreed to give her a home, and a fitting name: "Vi" for the color Violet.

I have talked with our homeowner's insurance provider. There is no problem. 

She's getting lots of love and attention, she stays still and functions much better as a cushion, mattress, or other piece of furniture for my kids than my FT-bred Labrador Bus does. (they like to lie on the floor and cuddle the dog. Bus, my FT lab, will send them flying to the ceiling...cuddling Bus is more like riding a bull. Cuddling Violet is much less bumpy!)

I would imagine she's one of the few pits folks see heeling nicely, and stopping and sitting, awaiting further direction when the owner stops. She's doing two-a-days of obedience work currently, and will start wearing a G3 receiver shortly. The plan is to cc her. 

She's a work in progress and we're very aware of the reputation her breed has. Our intention, as all of you can surely imagine, is to be as responsible, caring and fair with her as we would with any of the labradors or cats that have shared our home.

So far, none of our neighbors have shunned us, and none of our kids' friends' parents have told their kids that they can't play in the Atkinson's home.

So there...it's off my chest. I have "a pit" and my family enjoys her. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. I'm not trying to argue any points.

I will try to post some pics soon.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

I know Steve, I'm not trying to defend these horrendous attacks. It just seems unfair, after my experience with these dogs, to condemn them all. 
My mistake on the avatar, I was looking at the red dogs in front.
This is a retriever forum, I apologize to everyone for pursuing this topic.
Walt


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

At the very least, I'm for mandatory spay/neuter of all pits. Witnessed a dog of mine attacked by two pits and have worked at urban and rural humane societies for many years. Have seen what I might term "nice" pits but, like a previous poster, I harbor a deep mistrust for the breed. Mistrust built by experience, not by ignorance.

I'm sad for the elderly woman's family and for her dog.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Hey Steve,

I hope my image is not permanently tarnished now that I have admitted I'm a pit owner. If I ever do make it down to try and whack some cans and mallards with you, I promise to leave Violet at home! 

P.S. didn't you have some rotator cuff work or some sort of mechanical stuff done on you by a doc? You back to working a scattergun yet? Get ready because I hear my buddies up north on the big muddy river limited out on greenheads yesterday!

- the Janitor who has a pit.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> I hope my image is not permanently tarnished now that I have admitted I'm a pit owner. If I ever do make it down to try and whack some cans and mallards with you, I promise to leave Violet at home!
> 
> ...


The shoulder is as its going to get. The old girl has a 2 inch slice on the side of her head to remove a tumor. No Cancer Have to go to the "B" team for hunting hounds but they can still manage to find what I shoot. The weather just turned BTW. I bet the push is on. Come on down. ANY Trained dog is welcome at my house FWIW


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Goldenboy said:


> At the very least, I'm for mandatory spay/neuter of all pits.


So "at the very least" you are for the elimination of the breed in America within about 10-12 years (as soon as all the spayed/neutered ones die). I don't think I want to know what you really want if that is the least of what you want.

Wow. This isn't Beijing.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> So far, none of our neighbors have shunned us, and none of our kids' friends' parents have told their kids that they can't play in the Atkinson's home.


Hey Chris, I've got a sincere question, not trying to stir anything up.

I don't know how old your kids are, but I'm wondering if you are any less likely to leave the new dog with your kids and their friends (but unattended by adults) than you would be with your labs?

I don't know if Vi is full grown and my kids are probably younger/smaller than yours, but if I somehow wound up with a full grown pit I'm not sure I would treat it just like any other dog where my kids and their friends (or my Grandmother) are concerned.

I have no doubt that you are as responsible with your animals as any of the rest of us, which is why I am interested in your answer.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

HuntinDawg said:


> So "at the very least" you are for the elimination of the breed in America within about 10-12 years (as soon as all the spayed/neutered ones die). I don't think I want to know what you really want if that is the least of what you want.


Simply put. Yes, this is what I want.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

OK, if others are going to keep this thread going, i'm jumping back in.
Mark, are you really for going into peoples homes, taking their dogs from them and having them sterilized? What the heck!!
Walt


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

I've been bitten by a lab.. ten minutes later it was licking me. Whatever triggered it, i'll never know. The dog was sweet as could be.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> Hey Chris, I've got a sincere question, not trying to stir anything up.
> 
> I don't know how old your kids are, but I'm wondering if you are any less likely to leave the new dog with your kids and their friends (but unattended by adults) than you would be with your labs?
> 
> ...


HD,

So far, we have never left our kids ( 5 and 7 years) alone with any dog, regardless of breed or age. I doubt that will change anytime soon. Vi will have a great deal of time, repetition, and evidence that she is truly worthy of any responsiblity earned. She's about 6 months old now.

We use dog crates much more as parents than we ever did pre-kids. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Bus, my 3 year old lab, and our new rescue dog both spend LOTS of time in a crate.

Chris


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Goldenboy said:


> Simply put. Yes, this is what I want.


I'm not a pit owner, breeder or apologist, but this begs the question:

If we were somehow able to eliminate all pits in America (tough since there isn't even a good definition), what breed would the dog fighters, drug dealers and thugs turn to next? And after we ban THAT breed, what next? It just seems like a long slippery slope to me.


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

HuntinDawg said:


> I'm not a pit owner, breeder or apologist, but this begs the question:
> 
> If we were somehow able to eliminate all pits in America (tough since there isn't even a good definition), what breed would the dog fighters, drug dealers and thugs turn to next? And after we ban THAT breed, what next? It just seems like a long slippery slope to me.


I agree. But some problems call for serious, even though problematic to implement, solutions. But, ours is a society loathe to directly and substantively address any problem. Lest someone's feelings get hurt.


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## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

just curious.. how many innocent people/dogs are attacked yearly by pits?


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> HD,
> 
> So far, we have never left our kids ( 5 and 7 years) alone with any dog, regardless of breed or age. I doubt that will change anytime soon. Vi will have a great deal of time, repetition, and evidence that she is truly worthy of any responsiblity earned. She's about 6 months old now.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Sounds like you are more careful with your kids and lab than I am. My kids (5 1/2 and 2) are often alone in a room (never alone in house obviously) with our 4 1/2 year old lab. I am usually more concerned that my 2 year old may injure him than anything else. They'd have killed a small dog by now, or made it paranoid at least. I can't imagine that I'd give a pit nearly as much freedom around my kids as I do my lab. He minds them fairly well (better when I'm not right there). They feed him at night and he has to wait until one of them releases him before he can move to his food bowl and eat. The 5 yr old handles him on simple marks and baseball drills, so I'm hoping he sees them as at least a little bit of authority figures.

I hope Vi turns out to be a dream pet for you and your family.


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## Fowlfeller1100 (Mar 30, 2009)

I think something that must be considered by "sweeping statmenters" is the context. If soemone kicked in my door my chessie would probably eat his throat (my response would not be much nicer).

If a dog was roaming far from home and attacked a person its an entirely different story, not all bites are equal.


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## Gawthorpe (Oct 4, 2007)

For those are interested in the real dog bite numbers please look at these two reviews of dog statistics. Looks pretty solid in this case Pit Bulls and their owners kill.

The Clifton study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results. According to Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% of the canine homicides that occurred during a period of 24 years in the USA. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.)

Other breeds were also responsible for homicides, but to a much lesser extent. A 1997 study of dog bite fatalities in the years 1979 through 1996 revealed that the following breeds had killed one or more persons: pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas. (Dog Bite Related Fatalities," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, May 30, 1997, Vol. 46, No. 21, pp. 463 et. seq.) Since 1975, fatal attacks have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds.

Google is awesome


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

Well Chris is not the only pit owner on RTF. I have a pitbull who is now almost 12 years old. He has NO idea what he could be capable of. He is not dog or people aggressive, in fact he has always been bottom dog on the totem pole with my labs.

I also know I will not change anybody's mind regarding pitbulls, but Tux has been a great dog his entire life.

A good dog is a good dog regards,

Andy


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Congrats on your new pit bull. 

I can't say that I have ever met a pit owner who doesn't swear that his/her pit is docile, sweet, gentle and would never bite. And yet, I continue to hear about attacks on both people and dogs that are more than just a dog bite - most are from the breeds that were listed in the article. I bet those owners never thought that their dog would kill a child, friend, neighbor or neighbor's dog.

Barney, my boss'es pit, has crossed the rainbow bridge but I did work at his owner's place of business for 7 years. He bit me once when I tried to remove him to another room by pulling on his collar. His owner on at least one occasion could not get a dead animal away from Barney and just tied him out with it. Fortunately, Barney was 99% of the time safe around everyone and his owner did not have any children in his family. It is the remaining 1% of the time that should be the concern of anyone who owns the guarding, fighting breeds.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

SueLab said:


> Congrats on your new pit bull.
> 
> I can't say that I have ever met a pit owner who doesn't swear that his/her *pit is docile, sweet, gentle and would never bite*. And yet, I continue to hear about attacks on both people and dogs that are more than just a dog bite - most are from the breeds that were listed in the article. I bet those owners never thought that their dog would kill a child, friend, neighbor or neighbor's dog.
> 
> .


thats what attacked me.

walt - you jump in here defending PIT BULLS with your first post ever.

please tell me - all of us - about your experience with retrievers? why are you here??? please tell us about your accomplishments training retrievers since you first post ever is in support of pits. (fruedian, eh? as in the "pits")

retrievers are bred for what - um, i'll guess.....retrieving????

pit bulls are bred for what??? - um - i'll say for certain NOT for retrieving, NOT for bomb or corpse detection or seeing eye or seizure detection, or ANY other service to humanity....and NOT for loving companionship, although many fill this niche just by sake of being a canine...

they are bred to be aggressive, period. and indiscriminate breeding and roadside sales dont do much to improve the bloodlines, do they? show me a pit bull owner that scrutinizes the pedigree and health clearances before they bought that pit on the side of the road. 

i posted last year about a pit that drug its owner into my garage after my lab. they swear "its such a nice dog". i will kill it next time.

and please dont rehash the fact that most dog bites in america are caused by labs - we all know the facts here: labs are the most popular dog in amerca, 10+fold over pits, but pits account for more than that in statistical percentage of attacks. and any black dog is called a "lab".

and last: please show all of us here the stats where a lab, golden, chessie, flat coat, curly coat, NS toller, standard poodle, or even a freaking labradoodle killed a person????? 

do the math dude.

some of you people want to save every dog just because its a dog. i love dogs too. but isnt that like saying Osama Bin Laden is ok and we should forgive him just because he is is human and we are supposed to love all humans?


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

David,
I had my first retrievers with my girlfriend back in the early 80's. Megan Bren, our first lab became an FC/AFC at 2.5 yrs. She was totaly amateur trained and without an electric collar. She was as fine a field trial competitor as I've ever seen. Maxine, our second lab, Megans half sister out of Truckee's Nitro Chief, one of Mac DuBose's dogs, was QAA at 3 and jamed her first Amateur. I had to quit Field Trialing right after Maxines jam because of personal reasons. I've just started in trials again and now own a canadian bred dog, Sweetie. She was QAA at 22 months and makes training look easy. 
I'm no genius dog trainer, but I'm careful and love my dogs. I do my best and only want the same from my dogs.
The intolerance on this post is beyond belief, but your entitled to your opinion, I guess.
Walt


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> David,
> I had my first retrievers with my girlfriend back in the early 80's. Megan Bren, our first lab became an FC/AFC at 2.5 yrs. She was totaly amateur trained and without an electric collar. She was as fine a field trial competitor as I've ever seen. Maxine, our second lab, Megans half sister out of Truckee's Nitro Chief, one of Mac DuBose's dogs, was QAA at 3 and jamed her first Amateur. I had to quit Field Trialing right after Maxines jam because of personal reasons. I've just started in trials again and now own a canadian bred dog, Sweetie. She was QAA at 22 months and makes training look easy.
> I'm no genius dog trainer, but I'm careful and love my dogs. I do my best and only want the same from my dogs.
> The intolerance on this post is beyond belief, but your entitled to your opinion, I guess.
> Walt


thanks for showing us you have some knowledge here. you would have more repertoire leading with that before launching in defending pit bulls. 

your qualifications are respectable. and i mean that.

*but please, google up the stats on dog fatalities upon humans by breed. thats all i ask. then tell me its intolerance. *


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Jesus David, I'm not disputing the dogs can be dangerous. They shouldn't be owned by 99% of the people that do own them. In the earlier part of the last century, an outsider couldn't buy a pit bull. It was a closed society and outsiders were absolutely not permitted in, for very good reason. 
You have to have a brain to own a pit bull, and that's the problem, too many of us don't have one.
Walt


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Had a great friend who had a female pit bull, used to come to my house all the time, was great friends with all my labs. One day while out in the yard (alone, stupid me) one of my female labs and the pitbull started fighting. My dog ended up with a LOT of stitches in her legs and throat. The pitbulls ears were shredded. These 2 dogs got along every day, no tension that I recognized. A few years later the pitbull got hit and killed by a car when she was chasing a rabbit. The owner used to think it was 'funny' to watch her scare the hell out rabbits, squirrels, cats, etc. The poor dog was doing what she was taught. The owner cried for days. The dog was a very nice dog, but I didn't trust her.

A few years ago, I had a male Lab who was fear aggressive. Never trusted him either. He bit 2 people before I had him euthanized. Wasn't going to wait for a third.

The fact is, they are all dogs, they have SHARP teeth and when it comes down to it, in the wrong place, wrong time, wrong place, any dog can harm us.

Kris


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Hey Walt, I may not agree with you on pit bulls, but welcome to the RTF anyway. 

Hope your retrievers do well and your pits are trouble free.


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Stats sometimes dont mean alot the way they figure them. 
They used to say Mitsubishi cars were the most stollen cars in the U.S. But there was alot less of them sold then other. So if one brand sales 100 a year and 2 are stolen then thats 2%. If the other brand sales 200 cars and 2 are stolen that is 1%.
Same would be for dogs based on the % of statistics.
I dont like Pits either because of personal encounters, and all the ones I see around here are wearing big chains and spikes around there neck. People trying to have their dog look mean or cool.
P.S. Would some one come pick the stray up that someone dropped off in front of my house. I went to the road and poured out some dog food twice, but I am not going to raise him.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Thanks Howard,
I spoke to you last year about a breeding you were going to do but never did. Good luck with the one you've got advertised on the forum. Looks like a great one.
Walt


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Jesus David, *I'm not disputing the dogs can be dangerous*. They shouldn't be owned by 99% of the people that do own them. In the earlier part of the last century, an outsider couldn't buy a pit bull. It was a closed society and outsiders were absolutely not permitted in, for very good reason.
> You have to have a brain to own a pit bull, and that's the problem, too many of us don't have one.
> Walt


then i am not sure what your side of the debate has been about. if there is inherent discrimination toward PB's here, then its because those that feel that way feel they are dangerous. full circle argument.

peace to you and your pits, and may they never turn on one of your labs. i am a geologist and by default a bit agnostic to religion in the vernacular sense, but labs in particular and all other retrievers a very very close 2nd followed by all other dogs are the closest thing to a Supreme Being that i have ever experienced.... ;-)

kristie is my hero - "eat, sleep, fetch, repeat" 

thats gold right there!


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm saying you can't blame the breed for the actions of irresponsible owners.
Same thing with guns and gun owners. I had my pit bulls for 9 years with 3 altercations. All three times it was a golden retriever who picked the fight. Same dog, running loose. Mine on a lead, minding her own business. 
These dogs are not supposed to be loose, EVER. It's the owner that bears responsibility. I have nothing but contempt for the jackass who allowed that dog to kill that poor woman, and I hold him personally responsible for it. 
There is so much stupidity in this world, nothing surprised me, but the idea of killing off an entire breed, or taking someones pet out of their house and sterilizing it, is so offensive and stupid, I feel lost and can't think of anything else to say.
Walt


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

HuntinDawg said:


> I'm not a pit owner, breeder or apologist, but this begs the question:
> 
> If we were somehow able to eliminate all pits in America (tough since there isn't even a good definition), what breed would the dog fighters, drug dealers and thugs turn to next? And after we ban THAT breed, what next? It just seems like a long slippery slope to me.


You will see the same dogs that people are seeing in cities where pits are banned. I would suspect dog fighters and thugs would move towards the Tosa Inu, Dogo Argentino, Fila Brasilerio, Presa Canario, Cane Corso, American Bulldog, Rots, or a mix of these dogs. I have seen some of these breeds work in schutzhund and I would not mess around with them. Some are bred solely for working and are not meant to be pets.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

HuntinDawg said:


> I'm not a pit owner, breeder or apologist, but this begs the question:
> 
> If we were somehow able to eliminate all pits in America (tough since there isn't even a good definition), what breed would the dog fighters, drug dealers and thugs turn to next? And after we ban THAT breed, what next? It just seems like a long slippery slope to me.



OMG you are right! i didnt think about this..... before long, the drug dealers and thugs would have to resort to - horrors of all horrors - labradoodles!!!

oh man this is scary stuff!


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I'm saying you can't blame the breed for the actions of irresponsible owners.


walt, please - by this you are saying that the owners are always responsible for the actions of the breed.

if you believe this, then you are saying that all dogs have the same instincts. this doesnt bear out.

retrievers retrieve. anything that can be retrieved.
herders herd. anything that can be herded.
guard dogs guard. anything that can be guarded.
lap dogs sit in laps. any lap available.
service dogs serve. whatever needs served - sight, scent, search, assistance.
fighting dogs fight. anything in sight sometimes.
labradoodles - um. .... hmm. ok, so my logic isnt 100% perfect... ;-)


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

David, we're talking about pit bulls. The people that own a pit bull know what they are getting, or should. They are going to be held to a higher standard by owning these dogs and should act accordingly. That means you have to be careful. It can't be luck that I owned 4 of these dogs for almost a decade without any problems. And I've already admitted to not being a brilliant dog trainer. So how did that happen?


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Hmmm.. I found a tiny beaten up pit a long time ago and brought her home. She was pretty much the sweetest dog on the planet and loved to play ball fetch. Then I rescued a pit mix from the pund about 3 months old. At first he was so sweet, playing with the kids. As he continued to grow up around the kids, he would frolic about with them. Soon, he was chasing them with aggression and growling and snapping at their heels. I had him put down. Later, I took 2 pits out of my daughters house that I had spent time with when she had to leave the state. The older one snapped on the pup and ripped it to shreds before my eyes... These were also put down. I will never forget the pups screams.. 

Now, there are a couple of them that live in my neighborhood. One runs loose quite frequently, acting friendly to all who come near it. But this summer it came running at me as I was loading my labs in the truck, barking and growling. I jumped in my truck as he came to me. I have let the owner know that if this happens again, I will kill it if I have the opportunity... 

Guess you never know what they will do... My first one made me love them. But now I don't trust them. At least other peoples dogs..


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

David, read DEDEYE's post. Is it the breeds fault the pit bull in her neighborhood is running loose? If that isn't what I'm talking about, I don't know what is.
Walt


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> David, we're talking about pit bulls. The people that own a pit bull know what they are getting, or should. They are going to be held to a higher standard by owning these dogs and should act accordingly. That means you have to be careful. It can't be luck that I owned 4 of these dogs for almost a decade without any problems. *And I've already admitted to not being a brilliant dog trainer. So how did that happen?*


sorry walt, but: 
>>>>
I had my first retrievers with my girlfriend back in the early 80's. Megan Bren, our first lab became an FC/AFC at 2.5 yrs. She was totaly amateur trained and without an electric collar. She was as fine a field trial competitor as I've ever seen. Maxine, our second lab, Megans half sister out of Truckee's Nitro Chief, one of Mac DuBose's dogs, was QAA at 3 and jamed her first Amateur. I had to quit Field Trialing right after Maxines jam because of personal reasons. I've just started in trials again and now own a canadian bred dog, Sweetie. She was QAA at 22 months and makes training look easy.
>>>>>

your own words contradict you..... it happened because you are as good of a trainer as you are _pretending_ not to be. no luck. just skill. maybe unhoned skill, but skill still. been there done that... ;-)

now drop the pit praising and start talking about what you plan to do next with Sweetie...training all yourself or with a pro????


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> David, read DEDEYE's post. Is it the breeds fault the pit bull in her neighborhood is running loose? If that isn't what I'm talking about, I don't know what is.
> Walt


i read DEDEYE's post. seems to me DEDEYE did everything possible to assimilate 4 dogs, and they were still untrustworthy. so, in this case, its certainly not DEDEYE's fault. that leaves breed.

i give up. time for bed. i like to drift off with scenarios of triples with a tight cheating blind and a diversion poison bird on the way out.........


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

david gibson said:


> OMG you are right! i didnt think about this..... before long, the drug dealers and thugs would have to resort to - horrors of all horrors - labradoodles!!!
> 
> oh man this is scary stuff!


David, I know I'm not going to change your mind. But it bears considering, if dog fighters, drug dealers, thugs, and idiot wanna-look-bad owners have "ruined" the pit bull breed or led it down this path to what it has become and those dogs were somehow unavailable, I would guess that the Rottweiler would be the next breed that these people would gravitate to. Some people already hold similar opinions of the Rottweiler as Pits, but the Rottweiler is a legit breed. But these clowns will start breeding the meanest Rottweiler (I don't have one, don't want one, never been around one much, just a likely example) to the meanest Rottweiler to produce the dogs they want, fighting dogs or whatever. Now we ban the Rottweiler. Now they pick another breed. Dobermans, German Shepherds or one of the more exotic breeds, but eventually they would get around to just about any large, powerful breed. They wouldn't make it all the way to the labradoodle, nor likely any of the retriever breeds (Chessies maybe??) but they would ruin a lot of good, legitimate dog breeds along the way. Of course this assumes we could actually get rid of pits, which I doubt.

What do you say to the "Dog Whisperer" and his success "rehabilitating" pit bulls? I don't want a pit and don't know if I could ever trust one around my kids or other pets the way I trust my labs, BUT he has some awfully docile pit bulls. One of them ("Daddy") is his "go to" dog when he needs to bring a powerful but calm presence around other out of control dogs. I wouldn't be afraid to hang out with "Daddy" from what I've seen and I'm pretty sure he and some of the other pits in Caesar's "pack" came from rough backgrounds.


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

OMD, David, that third picture down on your home page is AweSome. The owner and dog have the same look on their face. Priceless. 

Kris


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> thats what attacked me.
> 
> walt - you jump in here defending PIT BULLS with your first post ever.
> 
> please tell me - all of us - about your experience with retrievers? why are you here??? please tell us about your accomplishments training retrievers since you first post ever is in support of pits. (fruedian, eh? as in the "pits")


I'm not Walt but I do agree with him. 
Am I allowed to be here?.
What is your experience with pits besides getting bit by one

I dont think its fair to bite the new guy

First most people who breed pit bulls are similar to most people who breed labs or chessies or goldens.
They see a golden,,,they own a golden or something that looks like one and say hey lets breed them.
The reasons we have nice labs,chessies,and goldens to breed to is because we have people who have bred to maintain their abilities because as of yet in this country ,hunting And field trials are still legal.
If we were to do away with these activities the lab would eventually end up in the same comparitive boat. Just some common black kerr dog.

In countries where fighting is still legal and the breeding of competitive pit dogs exist,,they probably still cull the dogs which are people aggressive.
Back when people were breeding for the desired traits,,,they would cull a dog that looked crosseyed at someone weather or not they had won lots of money.
The lack of competion is probably the result of what we have here in this country today.
Most pits that bite are crosses yet are still called pits,, go to any shelter and if a dog is black choc or yellow its a lab cross.

Once you cross a pit you no longer have a pit mentality. you have a pit crossed with a kerr mentality.
No different than a pointer /lab cross you can get a dog that busts birds a quarter mile away.

I think about half of the AkC breeds have tried to bite me,,,should we radicate those breeds. But I think most of the snarling little buggers have been mutts ,,, you know the ones people say make the best pets.

I think people just get to emotional so their judgement is impaired.

Just like its my right to own a gun doesnt mean I know how to use it.

Same with bully breeds. Its best to learn about this pretty darn cool breed before you own one or you might end up shooting yourself in the foot.

Pete


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

I can't sleep, hopefully you can and you can read this in the morning. I'm tired of arguing with people I have so much in common with. So I'm done too. 
Sweet's having trouble with in-lines. That middle gun is brutal, especially retired. She's showing signs of getting it though, had our first success last Saturday. She's a little better at retired indents but not much, so there's lots to do. Her handling is very good, good control on long blinds. She's got a great work ethic and loves to train.
No pro this winter. Too much to do at home and I'd want to go with her. Hope your training is going well David, all the best for the holidays.
Walt


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Kris Hunt said:


> OMD, David, that third picture down on your home page is AweSome. The owner and dog have the same look on their face. Priceless.
> 
> Kris


No, no, no, no. Looks like the owner is terrified and the dog is having a ball.  

Love the pic, I really can't stop laughing when I'm looking at it.

I was just thinking. If that was a gal instead of a guy, if it was a field trial instead of a dock jumping competition, and the dog was yellow instead of black........ that could be dedeye and her trusty dog Darla at an all age event.  










Picture taken from David Gibson's web site. Hope it's OK.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Steve Amrein said:


> So if I put a pole in my front yard and strapped a grenade to it kid hi so the could reach the pin would you fell bad for me ?
> 
> I hope the dog owners wake up everyday hearing the screams of the dying woman and her dog.
> 
> ...



Yes. I would still have sadness for your sorrow.

I'm not sure I used the word "bad."


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Howard N said:


> No, no, no, no. Looks like the owner is terrified and the dog is having a ball.
> 
> Love the pic, I really can't stop laughing when I'm looking at it.
> 
> ...


the dog is a great jumper - unfortunately the handler is a poor thrower - he nearly hit a lady spectator on the side as the tossed bumper missed the pool.....these events can be great to watch! you'll see all kinds of breeds, but yet to see a great dane, pit, or rott. a doberman or 2, a few belguim malinois, and a lot of mutts, but labs and goldens mostly


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Howard N said:


> .....
> 
> I was just thinking. If that was a gal instead of a guy, if it was a field trial instead of a dock jumping competition, and the dog was yellow instead of black........ that could be dedeye and her trusty dog Darla at an all age event.


I have an idea you will pay for that remark!! 

JS


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Howard N said:


> No, no, no, no. Looks like the owner is terrified and the dog is having a ball.
> 
> Love the pic, I really can't stop laughing when I'm looking at it.
> 
> ...


Howard you are still my favorite MORON....


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I had a that about this. I am not wanting a ban on Pits but I want to make sure those responsible for them are responsible. Here is my plan:

All current pits must be micro chipped and registered with some local or state authority.

DNA samples will be taken and any dog found after X date will be traced back to breeder. 

Breeders need to post a million dollar bond or liabilty ins.

All pit owners must have a 6 ft high fence and be buried 1 ft in the ground.

All owners must have a miilion dollar ins policy.

Any owner who dog kills a human will get manditory 25 years.

No felons will be allowed to own a pit.

Failure to abide by these laws will carry a manditory 5 year sentance.


Ok some of thes may be extreme but if I leave my loaded gun on the coffee table and some kid shots someone I will likely have huge monetary and likely jail time. Same if I had a tiger, lion, or large primate. The majority of people are responsible owners of guns, cars animals and so on. What needs to happen is a deterent for folks who are not responsible to be held as such. I really blame the owners not the dogs.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

you can own a wolf in some states but the state mandates you satisify certain requirements (certain hight fence, concrete floor, never allowed to run free, etc..). Why is this? Because they have a high probability of being dangerous (among other possible issues). I'm sure some of them are "nice family dogs".

Pits are bred to fight. Therefore they need additional regulations associated with their ownership. If picking up random tennis balls was a crime then labs would need additional regulations associated with their ownership.


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## TroyW (Nov 27, 2006)

Steve Amrein said:


> I had a that about this. I am not wanting a ban on Pits but I want to make sure those responsible for them are responsible. Here is my plan:
> 
> All current pits must be micro chipped and registered with some local or state authority.
> 
> ...


And it will stop there with the pits right? What exactly is a pit. Do you determine breed by what. Are you talking about all bully breeds? Is it so many reported bites by a certain breed and then that breed is banned?
This seems to be a mighty fine line. Who helps to write the legislation? PETA or HSUS, cause we know they will stick to the task at hand right.
Troy


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pits are bred to fight. Therefore they need additional regulations associated with their ownership. If picking up random tennis balls was a crime then labs would need additional regulations associated with their ownership.


See I disagree with this
Almost all pitts are not bred for fighting anymore, least not in this country and the tiny percent that are bred for fighting in this country are bred by morons.
Most labradors are not bred for hunting,,get one from a puppy mill or BYB and you will immediately see the difference between a dog bred for the field and one bred nothing in general. The largest percentage of problem dogs I worked with were chocolate labs,,aggression being one of the problems.
You would be hard pressed to find an aggressive choc. lab out of a field breeding.
Again these dogs were just bred because who knows,,,by good people without a clue.

What produces good dogs are people with a clue.
American people in general dont understand dogs. In most cases they are down right looney about them. Look what sells on TV
If you look at the regulations and restrictions in some european countries you will understand why the people can peacefully co-exist with each other and still own some bad arse dogs.

They get it and we dont 
3 cheers for europe when it comes to dogs anyway. I'm not talking about people who work with their dogs ..,,I'm talking about just regular people who own them.. A high percentage of people who own these dogs know almost nothing about their dogs except they are cute and cuttly and the have to pick their poop up on weekends.

It can be said its our culture not the dogs


Pete


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

TroyW said:


> And it will stop there with the pits right? What exactly is a pit. Do you determine breed by what. Are you talking about all bully breeds? Is it so many reported bites by a certain breed and then that breed is banned?
> This seems to be a mighty fine line. Who helps to write the legislation? PETA or HSUS, cause we know they will stick to the task at hand right.
> Troy


OK hows this you dog Kills a human you get 50 years You pick your dog any dog. You pick if you train it to fight or sit in you lap I dont care. Let it run free, spay neuter whatever.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

A quick google news search
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6942526.ece

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/dec/01/dog-killed-couple-attacked-bulldog-estates/


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-md.briefs302nov30,0,1439634.story

http://www.myplainview.com/articles/2009/11/21/breaking_news/doc4b08c3c01d287409589505.txt

This is human dog and horse killings by pit type in the last 2 weeks I saved the search and will email me every time this scenario happens.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

HuntinDawg said:


> .... But these clowns will start breeding the meanest Rottweiler (I don't have one, don't want one, never been around one much, just a likely example) to the meanest Rottweiler to produce the dogs they want, fighting dogs or whatever. Now we ban the Rottweiler. Now they pick another breed. Dobermans, German Shepherds or one of the more exotic breeds, but eventually they would get around to just about any large, powerful breed. They wouldn't make it all the way to the labradoodle, nor likely any of the retriever breeds (Chessies maybe??) but they would ruin a lot of good, legitimate dog breeds along the way. Of course this assumes we could actually get rid of pits, which I doubt.
> 
> What do you say to the "Dog Whisperer" and his success "rehabilitating" pit bulls? ... I'm pretty sure he and some of the other pits in Caesar's "pack" came from rough backgrounds.


Just a comment...regarding Rotts...I met a lady who bred them and she quit doing so 20 years ago because people would come to see the pups and say: "which one is the meanest of the litter". She said tht hers had nice dispositions and she refused to place them with that type of owner.

You don't have to say anything to the "Dog Whisper" because he has stated several times on his program that pits need to be with certain people and not everyone should own a pit. Let's face it, he uses them to demonstrate how successful he is as a dog trainer and just how tall are his fences around his compound? And why would tht be necessary?


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Stupid people are the reason I quit breeding Rotties as well. Had nothing to do with the market or their disposition.


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## TroyW (Nov 27, 2006)

Steve Amrein said:


> OK hows this you dog Kills a human you get 50 years You pick your dog any dog. You pick if you train it to fight or sit in you lap I dont care. Let it run free, spay neuter whatever.


Sure if your dog harms or kills you're responsible, regardless of the breed. I believe that is negligent or accidental homicide, and in at least one case 2nd degree murder.
That's got nothing to do with banning a breed or punishing responsible dog owners.
Troy


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Pete said:


> See I disagree with this
> Almost all pitts are not bred for fighting anymore, least not in this country and the tiny percent that are bred for fighting in this country are bred by morons.
> Most labradors are not bred for hunting,,get one from a puppy mill or BYB and you will immediately see the difference between a dog bred for the field and one bred nothing in general. The largest percentage of problem dogs I worked with were chocolate labs,,aggression being one of the problems.
> You would be hard pressed to find an aggressive choc. lab out of a field breeding.
> ...


I don't disagree with you Pete. I think we are somewhat saying the same thing. All I'm saying is it would take a long while to breed the fight out of a pit even if they are not bred to fight. Just like it would take a long while to bred the retrieve out of a lab even if we made them all show dogs. So possibly there needs to be more regulations tied to pit owners since they have a higher possibility of hurting other pets and / or people.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Jt
I was hoping to show another view point. I understand how people come to feel the way they do. 
Kind of like if a poster said "use more juice and kick the dog if it doesnt want to retrieve,,,most here would shake their head,,,,right,,,,,,and start typing so fast the key board would fly apart.,,,,so it is when I read an emotional responce to a subject with little experience except being a victom. 
But yes they are justified in feeling the way they do.

When I read this stuff my tounge starts bleeding and finally I type a few words to stop it

An example might be how someone was chased down by a pitbull snarling,barking and showing of his teeth,,, So I say to myself ,,,it most likely couldnt be a pit,,,, wrong MO,,,could of been a mix,,,,but the pit will get the blame,,,,,,just an example


Most of this stuff is just a view point,,,no one is really right or wrong,,,,,we all have our life experiences to formulate our opinions. 

One of the things I learned in life is the more you experience something the more your view point changes on the matter,,,so I thought I'd offer a different one. There was certainly a time I thought like most,,,but to many things have happened since then


Pete


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## AnishinabeIkwe (Oct 19, 2009)

I really don’t know if I want to keep this thread going as this is a Retriever forum but…..
I own a pit bull, she was rescued from a fighting yard, she was a bait dog and was severely scared and tattered. She is sweet and has passed her AKC CGC and her therapy dog international certification test.
She visits two nursing homes a week, the Boys and Girls club and is a Reading dog once a month at the local elementary school.
I live on an Indian Reservation in Northern Minnesota, there are actually three Reservation very close to each other. The pit bull is the breed of choice on all three reservations for the last 12-15 years. Before that it was German Sheppard’s.
The pit bulls run lose like back in the old days when all the neighbored hood dogs in rural areas ran free. I would have to say there are 100’s of pit bulls running lose and we do not experience dogs and people being killed by these dogs. So what are we doing different than all these other folks who see attacks all the time?
I am opposed to Breed Specific Legislation. I believe in responsible dogs breeding programs and ownership. As far as the drug deals choice they have already chosen Dobermans and Rotts in the past and ruined the reputation of the breeds and flooded the breeding stock with bad temperaments and health issues. I think there is a lot of education than can be done here but I am not here to talk about pit bulls I am here to talk about retrievers and learn from other board members experience. Thank you for allowing me to voice my $.02. 
Peace


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## k9freek (Nov 29, 2009)

Punish the deed not the breed


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Pete said:


> Jt
> I was hoping to show another view point. I understand how people come to feel the way they do.
> Kind of like if a poster said "use more juice and kick the dog if it doesnt want to retrieve,,,most here would shake their head,,,,right,,,,,,and start typing so fast the key board would fly apart.,,,,so it is when I read an emotional responce to a subject with little experience except being a victom.
> But yes they are justified in feeling the way they do.
> ...


Agreed. Well said


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

k9freek said:


> Punish the deed not the breed


I actually agree with this but at least in Pennsylvania the punishments are insufficient. If my dog attacks and kills your dog, you would have trouble paying for cremation and an urn based on the maximum damage award you would get from me. If my dog, with no record of aggression, jumps my fence and kills your child, I would face almost no penalty at all beyond loss of my dog. 

Personally, I love the pit breeds, but I do not trust almost any of the rescue pits bred in the streets. My daughter had to put down a rescue pit after it attacked both dogs and humans. She now has a pit/ridgeback cross which is wonderful with all humans, but cannot be trusted with other dogs. 

I have not seen the same types of problems with purebred pits. My experience with Labs has been almost uniformly positive. However, I have also seen some vicious backyard and puppy mill bred Labs. They may lack the bite strength of pits, rotties, and other fighting bred dogs, but they are still strong enough to do serious damage.

I do not believe in outlawing specific breeds because:
There is no clear definition of what constitutes a pit
The breeds that are most clearly identifiable as pits - the registered purebred ones - are also the least likely to be a problem
I do not believe that legislation will stop with pits. Other breeds will quickly be added to the list -- rotties, boxers, and even many of the sheperds. Eventually, I think there will be bans on dogs based almost solely on size. Many rescue dogs may be destroyed simply because it is not possible to prove they are NOT pits.
Unfortunately, I think some rescue groups are part of the problem. When I go to PetSmart on a Saturday, the entry way is crowded with rescue dogs available for adoption. Almost all are pits and many have ended up in the shelter _because_ they are vicious. This I know for a fact.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Pete...No one is really right or wrong?? How would you feel about someone coming into your house, taking your dog and sterilizing it? Or worse, someone collecting your dog to be put down because others have judged it 'too dangerous'? There is no question in my mind about whether or not those 2 things are wrong.
Walt


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pete...No one is really right or wrong?? How would you feel about someone coming into your house, taking your dog and sterilizing it? Or worse, someone collecting your dog to be put down because others have judged it 'too dangerous'? There is no question in my mind about whether or not those 2 things are wrong.
> Walt


Walt 
I wasnt talking about that.
I meant there is no right or wrong how people feel about specific breeds.
That doesnt give anybody the right to do anything to my dogs or anyone elses dogs.
People dont like them for many reasons. I like them because they have a great bite,,a testiment to mans ability to genetically manipulate genes to perpetuate certain characteristics.
I appreciate many breeds. I dont like oriental breeds. I cant find anything to appreciate in them. But i'm neither right or wrong. I dont even have the urge to scratch their little ears. They are boring,,,but again thats just my opinion.
Thats all I was saying. I believe no one has the right to go into a chow owners home and cut their dogs testicals.

I agree with you Walt those things you mentioned are wrong.

Pete


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Thanks Pete... believe it or not those very things have been suggested on this topic. I really had no idea that so many people hated these dogs that much. Especially so many people I like and share so much in common with.
Walt


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I've OB trained 5 Pit Bulls and frankly not one of them scared me at all. 3 of them were rescue pits from luvabull pit rescue here in town. Lesle (sp) runs the local rescue and will tell you that some pits cannot overcome their breeding or experience in life. She will not take them. That being said, she hosted Cesar Milan for a show, you may recall El Diablo the Chihuahua. Here she is with 20 pit bulls and its the Chihuahua she can't control. Nothing will bite faster than one of those little bass turds. Why isn't everyone against having them removed?

/Paul


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I've OB trained 5 Pit Bulls and frankly not one of them scared me at all. 3 of them were rescue pits from luvabull pit rescue here in town. Lesle (sp) runs the local rescue and will tell you that some pits cannot overcome their breeding or experience in life. She will not take them. That being said, she hosted Cesar Milan for a show, you may recall El Diablo the Chihuahua. Here she is with 20 pit bulls and its the Chihuahua she can't control. Nothing will bite faster than one of those little bass turds. Why isn't everyone against having them removed?
> 
> /Paul


Personally, I hate all those little nippy toy dogs (Jack Russell's excepted), but there's a big difference between 500 pounds of bite and 5.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Paul...Now that's funny. I've never heard a chihuahua called that before.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> Personally, I hate all those little nippy toy dogs (Jack Russell's excepted), but there's a big difference between 500 pounds of bite and 5.


well, i have a whole list of hounds you better stay away from as well. 

/Paul


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Here she is with 20 pit bulls and its the Chihuahua she can't control. Nothing will bite faster than one of those little bass turds. Why isn't everyone against having them removed?
> 
> /Paul


Hey, now ur talking about my truck dog! She guards it fearlessly..


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

AnishinabeIkwe said:


> I really don’t know if I want to keep this thread going as this is a Retriever forum but…..
> I own a pit bull, she was rescued from a fighting yard, she was a bait dog and was severely scared and tattered. She is sweet and has passed her AKC CGC and her therapy dog international certification test.
> She visits two nursing homes a week, the Boys and Girls club and is a Reading dog once a month at the local elementary school.
> I live on an Indian Reservation in Northern Minnesota, there are actually three Reservation very close to each other. The pit bull is the breed of choice on all three reservations for the last 12-15 years. Before that it was German Sheppard’s.
> ...


Welcome aboard. Are you on White Earth?


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Texas avoided breed specific legislation but here is a summary of Lillian's Law...

It might be of interest that the same individual has more dogs running loose currently...I was informed by his neighbor who is the secretary for a local curcuit judge. There are no leash laws in the county so he is free to do so until another of his dogs maims or kills someone. So much for laws changing someone's actions...


Lillian's Law - Texas State Dangerous Dog Law
House Bill 1355 (Lillian’s Law) is a tough new dog bite law that took effect in the state of Texas in 2007. Under Lillian's Law, the owner of a dog that causes injury or death can be prosecuted if the owner is found to be "criminally negligent" in failing to prevent the dog from escaping. The third-degree felony charge can bring a sentence of 2 to 10 years in prison and a $10,000 fine. If the victim dies, a dog owner can be charged with a second-degree felony, which could bring up to 20 years in prison.

The law stems after a violent attack by a gang of pit bull mixes killed Lillian Stiles while gardening. Lillian's family and friends were shocked to learn after her death that Texas laws do not, in most cases, hold the dog's owner responsible for injuries, even deaths, caused by their dogs. They gathered and formed a group Texas Families Against Dangerous Dogs and succeeded in passing new legislation that allows criminal recourse for victims.


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## AnishinabeIkwe (Oct 19, 2009)

> Welcome aboard. Are you on White Earth?


No, I am from Red Lake but Live on Leech Lake.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

AnishinabeIkwe said:


> No, I am from Red Lake but Live on Leech Lake.


Small world. When I was younger, I had the chance to spend a weekend at White Earth and I believe we visited Red Lake, although I am not positive. One of my childhood friends is a member of the Lac Du Flambeau tribe and her grandfather would spend time at White Earth. Beautiful area.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

So I have read this thread from top to bottom and am reminded of a poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) 

*First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a communist.*
*Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a trade unionist.*
*Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew.*
*Then they came for me- and there was no one left to speak out for me.*

Of the situation of the original poster, just a tragic situation all the way around. A lot of folk think my dogs are mean and snarling when they are just smiling. I have personally known more than one Great Pit Bull. The only dog to even go at it with one of my Chessies was a Golden Retriever. And for the record I have always hated poodles and some old ladies can be mean and irritable, I don’t like them ether.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I love you Ken.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Brother Ken,

I bet you'd like Vi. She has been doing great in training.

I had a great talk with Fred Hassan tonight, the Sit means Sit guy who trained the famed "Maddie". Maddie has since crossed the rainbow bridge.

Fred tells me to keep it up and train Vi just like I have trained the labs that preceded her. And so it will be.

Chris


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## Michael Pearrow (Oct 20, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Is it really true that most everyone on this forum is for wiping out pit bulls?? I haven't met anyone in this sport, up till now, that seemed capable of even thinking about something like this. I thought we were all dog lovers.
> Walt


You dang right I am I had one jump my brother's lab he wieghts 110 pounds and could not handle this thing . He finally got my brother's on his back and grabbed his throat I was hittin him with a bumpers ,a fishing pole, a big tree limb he would'nt let go. Mason just about went before my brother came running with his shotgun he pulled the trigger click the dog shagged out outta here fast I have'nt seen him since I think my cousin got rid off him .


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> dnf777 Isn't it the same way of thinking though? Guns kill, get rid of them. Pit Bulls owned by gigantic bags of monkey crap, kill. Lets get rid of them too. How can we justify keeping our guns if that's the way we feel about these dogs?
> Walt


Like me and a few others said, a gun won't jump up and kill you all by itself. Most pit bulls probably won't either. But we've seen and heard of too many "loving, tender pits who have snapped". Then again, there's a whole series on cable tv about wives who "Snapped"! :shock:


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

Leave it to Bora to put it into perspective. 


Chris-I may have missed it but what kind of breed/mix is Vi?


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

dnf777 Yes, I've already been taught by other posters that guns are inanimate objects. Maybe it's because the people on this post that hate pits the most have never had one, that they just don't get what I've been saying from the beginning of this topic. They have to be treated as if they were guns. Even the ones as sweet as mine were NEVER givin the opportunity to run free or escape from my control. If they escape their owners control, they've gone off like a gun. That was my comparison. 
My children were taught immediately a few obedience commands to keep the pits from becoming excited. If you could have seen a 4 Year old telling pit bulls to SIT...LAY DOWN....UP. TUMMY SCRATCH ON THE DOWN AND COOKIE ON THE UP. I think you all could have seen what loving dogs pits could be. They didn't have the freedom of a lab, not much of a life in comparison at all, but they NEVER HURT ANYBODY OR ANYTHING. I'm so sick of saying the same thing. I'm convinced you all WANT to hate the dogs. Maybe you all just like acting tougher then animals that are obviously better then you are.
Walt


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2009)

dnf777 said:


> Like me and a few others said, a gun won't jump up and kill you all by itself. Most pit bulls probably won't either. But we've seen and heard of too many "loving, tender pits who have snapped". Then again, there's a whole series on cable tv about wives who "Snapped"! :shock:


OMG, I'm going to hijack this thread. Have you watched that show??? I set it to DVR and it taped hours and hours every day??? LOTS of wives apparently snap. I would sit and watch episodes while I was working on the computer and actually started to get a little bummed out. At first it's interesting, but then it's always the same story... that's some crazy stuff.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Brother Ken,
> 
> I bet you'd like Vi. She has been doing great in training....
> 
> Chris


I am sure I would Chris. ain't no love like the love from a rescue dog. 
imagin you and I going to a dog park, me with my rescue Chessie Scooby and you with Vi, bet we have the place to ourself in an instant. Look out boys and girls, the mean dogs are here ;-)


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> You dang right I am I had one jump my brother's lab he wieghts 110 pounds and could not handle this thing . He finally got my brother's on his back and grabbed his throat I was hittin him with a bumpers ,a fishing pole, a big tree limb he would'nt let go. Mason just about went before my brother came running with his shotgun he pulled the trigger click the dog shagged out outta here fast I have'nt seen him since I think my cousin got rid off him


 
Thats an amazing story Mike,,do you have a news paper article of this event .

Most people would have bled out by then. How long did it take you to find the fishing pole,bumper and big tree limb. Your brothers throat must have been soar.

Pete


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Pete said:


> Thats an amazing story Mike,,do you have a news paper article of this event .
> 
> Most people would have bled out by then. How long did it take you to find the fishing pole,bumper and big tree limb. Your brothers throat must have been soar.
> 
> Pete


Pete, he said it had his "brother's" on his back, meaning his brother's dog. Then his brother came out and shot it. I don't know if it is true any more than you do, but he wasn't saying it had his brother by the neck.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Is it really true that most everyone on this forum is for wiping out pit bulls?? I haven't met anyone in this sport, up till now, that seemed capable of even thinking about something like this. I thought we were all dog lovers.
> Walt


my hand is held high in the air on this one.

pit bulls have about the same standing in my mind as a certain world leader of kenyan roots


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

That's too bad Mr. Gibson. Your sentiments are exactly those of the anti-hunting, anti-gun people. All guns are bad. All hunters are bad because they kill animals. It' really not an all thing. Dogs should be judged on their individual deeds, not what breed they were born into. Discrimination and hate are so very un-Christian.

Regards
Dawn
(and yes I have and still do own rescued pitties)


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

Yeah, I hate small minded, bigoted hypocrites too.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Yeah, I hate small minded, bigoted hypocrites too.


OK.... I just checked in and happened to catch the thread at the end.

Let's consider this a stalemate Walt and David. 

Neither one of you is going to change your mind. You both are entitled to your own opinion. 

Chris


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Thank You Chris.

Juli


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

Michael Pearrow said:


> You dang right I am I had one jump my brother's lab he wieghts 110 pounds and could not handle this thing . He finally got my brother's on his back and grabbed his throat I was hittin him with a bumpers ,a fishing pole, a big tree limb he would'nt let go. Mason just about went before my brother came running with his shotgun he pulled the trigger click the dog shagged out outta here fast I have'nt seen him since I think my cousin got rid off him .


That has nothing to do with the dog being a "PitBull".. I had the same thing happen to my 90 pound yellow Lab.. Only the offender who had him by the throat and would not let go was a 8 month old Golden Retriever puppy. No, I am NOT making this up. Since said Golden was also mine, obviously I did not shoot him. But I kept the two dogs seperate for the rest of the Lab's life after that (Lab passed away earlier this year- of natural old age at 11.5 years) But I certainly was not able to get him to let go either. If it weren't for the heavy double-ply nylon collar the Lab was wearing, I have no doubt he would have been killed (the Lab was not going to back down).


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOThat has nothing to do with the dog being a "PitBull".. I had the same thing happen to my 90 pound yellow Lab.. Only the offender who had him by the throat and would not let go was a 8 month old Golden Retriever puppy. No, I am NOT making this up. Since said Golden was also mine, obviously I did not shoot him. But I kept the two dogs seperate for the rest of the Lab's life after that (Lab passed away earlier this year- of natural old age at 11.5 years) But I certainly was not able to get him to let go either. If it weren't for the heavy double-ply nylon collar the Lab was wearing, I have no doubt he would have been killed (the Lab was not going to back down).
Yesterday 09:47 PMTE][/QUOTE]

Just cant let this baby die can I

Good point bnm
all breeds have individuals who dont let go. They scrunch and hold.
Its those arnold schwatenhager jaw muscles that people dont like

I wonder if pit bulls say to themselves "Dont hate me cause I'm beatiful"

Pete


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

[QUOTE\]

I wonder if pit bulls say to themselves "Dont hate me cause I'm beatiful"

Pete[/QUOTE]

You betcha. I have been to many UKC shows and by far, usually the American Pitbull Terrier entries are the largest. Many of these same exhibitors show in AKC registered as American Staffordshire Terrer. That's right, it's the same breed just the two registries call them two different things. Most of these dogs, besides being beautiful, powerful, dogs are very friendly and affectionate with people. Most are "polite" to downright silly with other dogs and are very playful with children. The few times I have seen a dog get "jumped" by another dog at a show, it was NOT a Pit but some other breed. American Hairliess Terrier, Alaskan Klee Kai or Argentine Dogo, Fila, Cane Corso, Fila, etc.
However, this is NOT a breed for offleash dog parks because like any Terrier, they can get easily excited over other dogs moving quickly and will not back down from any dog that goes to it looking for a fight. A Jack Russel or Fox Terrier the same size would be just as much of a problem (and likely less trustworthy as most have MORE of a hair trigger than Pits)
The thing is, if you purchase a Pit from show lines, you are getting a totally different temperment than you are getting if you purchase one from the Gangsta down in the Hood. 
Just like getting a Lab or Golden from show lines or field lines vs from some random BYB breeding (only with a Pit it's worse, cuz the random BYB breeder wants the dog to be "tough" because that is what his puppy market wants, where as that is not the case with random Lab and Golden breedings)

Also, like any large Terrier (Airdales, Giant Schnauzer, Bouvier etc) I would not wrestle, play tug, or other rough play with people that encourages aggression and or dominance towards humans.. Again, something often done by people who either "don't know better" or gangsters wanting a "tough dog".

It all boils down to genetics and environment. Well-bred Pitbull in a good home makes an excellent easy to train pet (I have trained a few myself when I did basic obedience for a Kennel and they are marvelous, easy to train dogs!). Poorly bred dog owned by Gangsta wannabes is going to be dangerous (remember, most won't teach even basic obedience so will not have even basic control).
Poorly bred Rescue Pit (Rescue Pit is NOT likely to be from good Show Lines but the Hoodie drug dealers) in a good home, can go either way. I think you are more likely to see the "wonderful dog that snaps" from one of these since they have the good environment, but the poor genetics. No offense to those here that have Rescue Pits; but all rescue dogs are a gamble when it comes to temperment.

FYI, when I refer to "hair trigger" this is not a "pit bull" only thing. The "Hair Trigger" is in ALL Terriers and Sighthounds. It's the trigger that turns on "prey drive" and it can be very sensitive in some dogs. Sighthounds are the worst- anything smaller than them, moving fast, is a "rabbit" that must be chased and killed. For Terriers, especially the smaller ones, anything smaller, moving fast is a "rodent" that MUST be "conquered" and dispatched.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

Then on the other hand:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/11/joe-namath-dog.html


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

wheelhorse said:


> Then on the other hand:
> 
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/11/joe-namath-dog.html


Yup any dog of any breed can be dangerous. It all depends on inherited temperment and environment.
Speak to any of the old timer pros and most will remember when Goldens and Chessies were considered aggressive and known to bite trainers. (Granted you could argue that said dogs were getting too much pressure, but there were plenty of Labs in the era with the same heavy training that did not react aggresively to being overpressured. They might have bolted or quit, but biting wasn't happening generally.)

And could you imagine, if gangstas decided Chessies were the dog of choice?
God help us all! You wouldn't just have a loaded gun, you'd have a SMART loaded gun! (Pits are smart, but Chessies are even more so!)

..And for the record, I do think most modern Chessies have good temperments.. But I also know they truly enjoy "acting tough"
if they think they can scare you. Chessie humor.

BTW, for those that don't know, in the olden days, Collies (think Lassie) in England was the breed of choice for drug dealers! (This is according to old time Collie breeder Barbara Browning)
Imagine had they banned Collies... Most Collies today are very, very docile.
Just something to think about for those quick to want to ban breeds of dogs.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

ok, so the "stalemate" is that retrievers are just as dangerous as pits if raised the same way.

yeah.


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

This quote applies to all aspects of life. Politics, race, ethniticity, religion, laws, etc. As I watch people fight/argue about different topics on this forum, I constantly think about this quote. 

"The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge." --Elbert Hubbard

I rarely visit this forum much anymore and do not post much anymore becaues of this very reason. 

Eric W.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

EricW said:


> This quote applies to all aspects of life. Politics, race, ethniticity, religion, laws, etc. As I watch people fight/argue about different topics on this forum, I constantly think about this quote.
> 
> "The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge." --Elbert Hubbard
> 
> ...


its easy to write off people with a dissenting opinion as being uninformed, afterall, if they dont think like you do then _they_ must be the problem, right? its funny to me how those that accuse the non-liking PB folks of being narrow-minded are actually narrow-minded in their own arrogance. the anti-PB people have an opinion, and the pro-PB cant stand that it differs from their own opinion and try to sway them, and when they cant, they assume they just must be ignorant. 

the anti-PB folks, myself included, merely stated our points and reasons for our opinions, and did not try to convince the pro-PB to change theirs. you are welcome to have all the PB's you want, your business, i just dont like them and would not shed a tear if banned. i have never and never do intend to push or support any legislation toward that effect. its just my opinion. to call me ignorant because my opinion differs from yours is the acme of arrogance, especially when the facts clearly show the reason we have the opinion we have.


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## EricW (Aug 6, 2005)

You proved my point. 

Additionally, I never took a stand to my opinion of pro or anti PB nor did I point fingers at any specific person. I made a blanket comment about discussions. You made the assumption and proved your ignorance and "acme of arrogance". 

Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. I know and accept I have ignorance, hence why this quote mean's something.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Let me do something about this thread.. Hummm.... Okay, I'll post and kill it forever...

Death to all PB posts, may they rot in the abyss of electronic storage server's, forever forgotton by the general mass!


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

This thread has come to a stalemate and is non-productive.

Thread closed.


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

*Pit Bull attack update: No charges will be filed*

Sorry Chris, Vicky to bring up after its locked but I wanted to share story update. I would have added to the other thread but I am to late.

I have no further comment.

Link http://www.fox2now.com/news/ktvi-flora-woman-killed-dog-folo-120409-story,0,4613024.story


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

I merged Steve's last thread regarding this matter with the original thread. This was done after the original thread was locked.


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