# Why so many live flyers in HRC?



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I noticed at the California HRC test they had 1 live flyer on Sat and 2 live fliers on Sunday in Finished. They only had one live flyer in seasoned and none in started? They were talking about having 2 live fliers in 1 series nest year???
What is going on?


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

They are "closely replicating a days hunt".


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Won't say where or when but one time I was chewed out by field rep for wanting to put flyer in Seasoned. As I recall we did it anyway.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Fun test, with Judges that were very open to using flyers, had enough extra birds to have 2 of them on Sun. Had them in Seasoned on Sat, then all the Seasoned handlers decided to move up. Now If I can only hush up those dang Started handlers who keep asking "Hey how come we don't get a flyer? Aren't we testing hunting dogs?" Answer HRC Rules prohibit them, still we put the rule change in, it's being voted on; so I guess that's all we can do.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Fun test, with Judges that were very open to using flyers, had enough extra birds to have 2 of them on Sun. Had them in Seasoned on Sat, then all the Seasoned handlers decided to move up. Now If I can only hush up those dang Started handlers who keep asking "Hey how come we don't get a flyer? Aren't we testing hunting dogs?" Answer HRC Rules prohibit them, still we put the rule change in, it's being voted on; so I guess that's all we can do.


our club voted for live flyers I don't know about any others have voted


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

Been running HRC for 10 years and never seen one in Finished. Not sure why they want 2 ?


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

North Alabama always has them if we have the field that is outside the city limits. This year we will be on a shooting preserve and if the Seasoned judges will do it, we will encourage it. In Finished at this club it is SOP.
In HRC you can even talk to the dog at the line.
I say why not? 
MP


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Treasure Coast has a history of having them also. I think Chris remembers judging one down there maybe 10 years ago.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> Treasure Coast has a history of having them also. I think Chris remembers judging one down there maybe 10 years ago.


I remember it fondly. 

I loved it and I so wish I could turn the clock back to that time!

My personal opinion is that the regional rep, in my limited HRC experience, had significant influence over culture, setup and protocol. Sometimes I felt it beneficial. Sometimes Not. 

The treasure coast days:. Awesome!


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I remember a test at Treasure coast where the flyers were bobwhites. That was interesting.


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## John Gianladis (Jun 23, 2012)

It's the HUNTING retriever club! The more flyers the better. That's crappy they didn't have a shot flyer in one of the divisions!!!

JG


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I have heard a rumor that they might shoot 2 live flyers in the first series on Saturday next test and send the extra birds to started that will start 1 hour later...
No Dr Duckorvian needed


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

I enjoy the HRC game always have but I've always wondered why more HRC clubs don't shoot flyers. HRC prides themselves about replicating the real thing (actual hunt). Why not see if a seasoned or finished gundog will pick up a freshly killed or cripple bird? I've seen several HRCH titled dogs that won't pick up a shackled flyer or gut shot bird. I guess wearing full body camo is more important haha.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I was told years ago by a HRC rep it was all about gun safety. They didn't want an accident to jeapordize their venue.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

My limited understanding of the use of flyers in HRC had to do with logistics and safety/convenience. 

Normally a winger station (dead bird) can be safely operated by virtually anyone (high schooler, volunteer, person pulled out of the gallery etc) while a flyer station usually needs at least two people, of age, that can hit a bird consistently, and be in on land with permission to shoot live rounds. Logistically it can take more birds per dog to efficiently complete a series. Flyer are expensive because of bird costs, help costs, and shotgun shells. 

Usually the handlers don't complain when there isn't one. For the record I'm certainly not against it, but it does take a club and judges and HT committee all on board to make it happen.


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

Its been a long time since I've run or judged an HRC event but I seem to recall attending a judging seminar where the presenter discouraged the use of flyers because HRC felt the use of the gun drew enough attention to the orgainization that was potentionaly negative and they more notice received eventually PETA types would be around to protest the killing of birds. I'm probably not expressing this correctly but the firing of the gun by the handler is/was what separated HRC from other dog testing groups. Gun safety was to be be the primary concern so as to not draw negative attention because of an accident and preserve this important distinction. Flyers they figured was sure to draw PETA and if PETA showed up out went the gun.


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

I forgot to add I support the change in attitude. Look forward to running a finished test with a flyer. Just want to get the little knot head QAA first!


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Years past, HRC allowed live shackled birds in all series. When that went away and rules said all birds must be dead, most clubs did not use flyers. I like them but very costly for the club. Can anyone remember the rent- a -duck times.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I ran an HRC test in the 80's where they used pigeon flyers.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

We shot one last year in our finished test, Bill Autry was very happy with it, said he hadn't had one at a HRC test in many years. I see no reason to gas a perfectly good flyer. Why does a flyer cost a club anymore than a dead bird?? And why would PETA care if a gun was used at the line??


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## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

It is 100 times more work and worry for the hosting club to use live flyers. I love flyers, but it does complicate a test when compared to throwing dead ducks.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

I run in HRC, and I'd be interested to know how the logistics and # of birds required work out with just 1 flyer station. Meaning, dog 1 gets to the line, 3 marks and a blind, go bird is the flyer. Keeping it simple, for sake of conversation.

Does the shot bird then get reused, go into the rotation for (already) dead bird marks? Or if it's shot pretty bad could be removed from the batch when re-birding the winger stations, so as to not violate the rule on table-fare worthy. Seems that a lot of extra birds _MIGHT BE _needed, and the added expense that comes with it. Also hosting club state and federal laws MUST be followed for gunners, licenses and stamps, equipment, type of shot shell used, plug in gun, etc? Last, would the Premium need to state that "Live Flyers" may be used?

As for PETA, I'd think they could be escorted off of private land, w/o incident.

I'd jump at the chance to run a test with flyers over a test without. After all, we hunt too.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

I look at it this way, we shoot flyers every weekend at Trials and other tests, it's the norm, yep there are NO birds, does it cost the club a few extra bucks ? Most likely a little bit, but a no bird can still be used as a dead duck later in the weekend. How I do it when I'm in charge of the birds is , we buy X amout of live birds to be used as Flyers, and to be used as dead birds, we also buy X amount of one time retrieved shot flyers from a previous FT, that are froze, and thawed and used for our land series, the fresh shot flyers are cooled down and used the following day. The only extra exspence I see is the cost of the live rounds.


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## BIG DOG (Apr 17, 2003)

I ran 1 or 2 test that had A shot flier, both were at the finished level and as I recall at one test one of my dogs fliers wasn't dead when it the ground...she had blast chasing it lol


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

JJaxon said:


> I run in HRC, and I'd be interested to know how the logistics and # of birds required work out with just 1 flyer station. Meaning, dog 1 gets to the line, 3 marks and a blind, go bird is the flyer. Keeping it simple, for sake of conversation.
> 
> Does the shot bird then get reused, go into the rotation for (already) dead bird marks? Or if it's shot pretty bad could be removed from the batch when re-birding the winger stations, so as to not violate the rule on table-fare worthy. Seems that a lot of extra birds _MIGHT BE _needed, and the added expense that comes with it. Also hosting club state and federal laws MUST be followed for gunners, licenses and stamps, equipment, type of shot shell used, plug in gun, etc? Last, would the Premium need to state that "Live Flyers" may be used?
> 
> ...


The thrower of the live bird is the most important person then the gunners. The gunners have to be told Not to lead the ducks like wild ducks! Also use an open choke!! And either 6 or 7 steel shot. Tight chokes and 3 or 4 shot wreck the birds. 7 lead used to be great. If the gunners miss the duck and it is called a no bird then usually you can walk out and grab the live duck and throw it again. A great thrower and hunt test gunner can shoot 20 ducks with 25 rounds. Figure 3-5 rounds per duck for novice hunt test gunners and throwers. Make sure you have gun stands for all the gunners in the field. Your club will need a gun captain that has done this before and knows safety.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> Treasure Coast has a history of having them also. I think Chris remembers judging one down there maybe 10 years ago.


We have always used them if the judges were willing. 
BTW - TCRC is no longer an HRC club. No support from HRC or our surrounding clubs.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> I was told years ago by a HRC rep it was all about gun safety. They didn't want an accident to jeapordize their venue.


Been told the same and the then HRC president told me they use a "live" gun at the line and that the gun at the line does more to test a dog than a flyer.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Illini Coot Killr said:


> Its been a long time since I've run or judged an HRC event but I seem to recall attending a judging seminar where the presenter discouraged the use of flyers because HRC felt the use of the gun drew enough attention to the orgainization that was potentionaly negative and they more notice received eventually PETA types would be around to protest the killing of birds. I'm probably not expressing this correctly but the firing of the gun by the handler is/was what separated HRC from other dog testing groups. Gun safety was to be be the primary concern so as to not draw negative attention because of an accident and preserve this important distinction. Flyers they figured was sure to draw PETA and if PETA showed up out went the gun.


Yeah, because shooting a primer popper over a finished level dog test the dogs hunting ability far more than a fresh shot, and possibly crippled bird. 
Oh, and &[email protected]% PETA.


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## John Gianladis (Jun 23, 2012)

Wow! I had no idea that HRC didn't use live birds!! What are the entry fees like?

JG


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

So run from PETA and not shoot a flyer? PETA shouldn't even be a reason. I understand about the extra cost with birds and helpers shooting a flyer. If the owner of the grounds don't want live ammo going off, fully understandable you can still simulate a shot flyer. But it being the norm not to shoot a flyer in a game that prides itself as being a "realistic hunting test" is funny. Thats why I laugh at the conversations about the toughness between the MN vs the Grand. When one requires you to pass 6 per year with flyers thrown to even qualify and the other only requiring the HRCH title where no flyers are shot. Flyers are unpredictable thats why they're challenging, I seen great dogs go out on flyers. I also have several friends that judge HRCH and have tried to use a flyers but clubs have stated that flyer aren't allowed in HRC events.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

John Gianladis said:


> Wow! I had no idea that HRC didn't use live birds!! What are the entry fees like?
> 
> JG


In my area the entry fees are typically $65-75 vs a MH test that is typically $80-95. It would appear the difference is 1-2 flyers. . . .


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## John Gianladis (Jun 23, 2012)

The price difference makes sense. I hope more HRC clubs continue to at least consider using live birds. It makes a big difference when assessing hunting dogs!

JG


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Bird price isn't the issue, a club has to buy x amount of birds, for the trial period. Those birds need to be put down to run the event, no real difference btw putting them down with gas or shot, provided you use open chokes and light loads. Birds have more value while alive than they do dead, so we keep them alive as long as possible by using a flyer rather than just killing them all, the flyers then goes into rotation. Left over live birds are sold to club members at the end of the test, dead birds are given-thrown away. What is needed are 2 good gunners per stake, and that can be challenging for a smaller club. Still I respect that the club has the choice in whether they want to use them or not, each club gets to choose what is best for them. Of course JMO but charging $50+ for a started test that is only 4 dead birds, is really a rip-off to the handlers. That's $12.50 a piece for dead birds (that are getting used over and over), a single live duck is about the same $, and the dogs get tested on retrieving fresh shot game-possible cripples etc, which is what they need to do if they are to be a hunting dog.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Bird price isn't the issue, .


I believe price is a significant issue. Here's my logic:

A standard HRC hunt test
* 1 flight of started - needs 20 birds (10 birds per mark/station)
* 1 flight of seasoned - needs 30 birds (10 birds per mark and 10 per blind) could argue an extra bird or two for the diversion.
* 2 flights of finished - needs 40 each (10 birds per mark and 10 per blind) again diversion. 
= 130 birds for Saturday.

Using 10 birds per station and blinds is a good reference as it limits the # of retrieves an individual bird and ensures a viable bird for Sunday's series. Also lose some to hard mouth or other circumstances, but this is inevitable whether its shot or otherwise dispatched.

Same scenario as above except 1 flyer is utilized in each flight of Finished. A minimum of 35 birds are needed for a 30 dog flight of finished. So 70 live birds are needed just for the flyer stations and if you were to cut the dead bird marks and blinds to 5 birds each you are still at a minimum of 50 birds and you end up re-birding about 4-5 times in a series which is irritating. 

So 10 more birds per flight of finished or 20 birds for just Saturday @$12.50 per duck equals $250. 

Extrapolate this over a weekend of flyers on Sat. and Sun. and this is the difference between the club breaking even or making money. 

$500 a weekend could mean a new winger or 5 new bird crates or 4 new holding blinds or a BIG case of poppers or money towards the next test etc. This ignores the cost of shotgun shells and shooters as well. Everything costs money. 

All this to say, I am an advocate of the flyer and whole-heartedly believe it is a better test of a "hunting retriever", but I will not chastise a club for not having one.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Why would you need to start with 10 birds per station? Can't say I've ever worked a station that had 10 birds to start, more like 3-4 birds per station, and you get more once the flyers start coming out. After all Every flyer adds an additional bird to the stake. Your only running 30 dogs, plenty of time to dish out the new flyers, and it's not like HRC test distances are that far. With the flyer, You'll have at least 30 fresh birds for the 2nd series, added to the 15-20 the original test started with, this gives you 10+ dogs, to run before re-bird on a triple. Each bird gets used maybe 3 times, completely doable on land, with fresh-clean birds doable on water. First series=more re-birding, most of the Flyers on Sat. will be fresh-enough to fluff & chill for start Sun. (so no-new birds needed to start) and then Older birds are replaced with new flyers from the first series, on Sun.

Sat. Start (15-20 birds) (3-4dogs) (usually birds collected from the live flyers of a previous weekend and froze) shoot (30); End with 50 for next series. (or 5 stations w 10 birds)
Sun. Start (20-25 left-over from Sat.) (rest go out to other stakes) Shoot (30) end 1st series with 30 additional birds, which get sent where they are needed, and circulates out the older birds.

Total for 2 days of testing (60) flyers (15-20 additional bird to start)= 80 birds per finished flight per weekend; keep 20 or so live birds in reserve in case birds don't hold up well. If not used sell those to club members after test.

Re-birding every 5-6 dogs irritating? (LOL) here it's usually the club-members/handlers running the stations they need to be swapped out in order to be able to run their own dogs, thus they just take birds out with them when they relieve the thrower.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Retriever Clubs are none profit organizations, breaking even should always be the goal. Cutting corners to make money for a clubs savings account shouldn't be a reason why flyers aren't used. Yes, I do believe that clubs should have the right to choose if they can afford flyers at certain events but on the flip side its wrong to abuse that right just to put a bunch of money into a non profit organization's savings account.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

WBF said:


> Retriever Clubs are none profit organizations, breaking even should always be the goal. Cutting corners to make money for a clubs savings account shouldn't be a reason why flyers aren't used. Yes, I do believe that clubs should have the right to choose if they can afford flyers at certain events but on the flip side its wrong to abuse that right just to put a bunch of money into a non profit organization's savings account.


You have never ran a club have you? If the goal is to break even then you won't have a club very long. Even a non profit needs money in the bank to operate.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Todd Caswell said:


> You have never ran a club have you? If the goal is to break even then you won't have a club very long. Even a non profit needs money in the bank to operate.


Ran a club? Clubs are ran by the membership or should be. There are many event clubs across the nation that have 2 events per year breaking even or making a little. A club thats has 10k in the bank doesn't need to be complaining about paying for flyers. Thats my point.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

WBF said:


> Ran a club? Clubs are ran by the membership or should be. There are many event clubs across the nation that have 2 events per year breaking even or making a little. A club thats has 10k in the bank doesn't need to be complaining about paying for flyers. Thats my point.


OK so have you ever been on the board that helps make sound financial decisions for the club? Both clubs I belong to profit from there tests and trials, they have to if they don't how do you pay for the grounds upkeep, equipment upkeep, or have money up front to put on a test or trial?? I don't judge HRC but when I'm judging a trial I would love to do a flyer in the 4th. series of a derby or a Q but i always ask the club if it is OK more times than not they would rather we didn't for $$ reasons.. And I'm OK with that.. I would rather see the club make a PROFIT and be around next year..


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

You are very fortunate to get fliers, just means better birds for the dogs, I would like to see 4-5 birds per dog at each test not the .5 to 1.5 you see now, maybe that's why they sink..... $100 a test and can't do better than that


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Terry Marshall said:


> You are very fortunate to get fliers, just means better birds for the dogs, I would like to see 4-5 birds per dog at each test not the .5 to 1.5 you see now, maybe that's why they sink..... $100 a test and can't do better than that


Here is how it works in akc junior in my area. 
Have gunners shoot 1 bird to start. Give that bird to dead bird station. Run test dog. Give those 2 birds to dead station start test. Rebird after dog 2, 6, 14, 28. (And 56 if needed)
Do call backs and send extra birds to camp or other stakes. You now have 1 dry fluffy duck for every dog at dead station. So now when you shoot the flyer in the water series every dog has a dry duck. Throw the dead duck water mark first, if they don't retrieve that don't shoot the live flyer. 
For 50 dogs you end up using about 85 birds or so, due to dogs not passing first series or first water bird.

Senior works the same but starts with 4-6 ducks from a previous test. (Dry fluffies) then when they get to water, probably the last 1/3 of the dogs are going to get dead ducks that have been retrieved thru water. Senior about 50 live ducks for 30 dogs.

Master starts with 5-6 dead ducks per non live flyer station. So you end up with 60-80 dead ducks for the second series where you do not shoot a flyer. Then in the final series you shoot the 2nd flyer. So you end up shooting 80-90 birds total for 60 dogs in master. 

Now you have some great birds to freeze for next test. And you still have 170+ birds to pay workers with. Do a double jr/sr and you have almost 300 birds to pay workers with.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

*long sigh*

A finished flight for the weekend can easily be completed with 60 ducks for the weekend w/o a flyer compared to 80. That's real money.

Again, I'm certainly don't mind the flyer, just stating the club has a real financial benefit for not having a flyer because the test can be efficiently run with quality birds in all stakes with less total birds for the weekend.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

This is a very good thread. Well thought and added value from those contributing. Thanks to all.

Btw, after reading this thread a few days ago, I asked the hunt chairman for a test I'm judging in April if we could use live fliers in Seasoned, his answer was a simple "No". More discussion followed...
Was really too short notice to plan, but the bigger fear of handlers freaking out when they hear of something they likely haven't trained for stands to be the reason why clubs stay away from live fliers. 

Does it affect dogs? Possibly, if they've never had a warm live bird. 
Does it affect handlers? YES, especially in lower stakes, new handlers, young dogs, etc. Many new to the game would say "whats a live flier" and then back step when they realize they haven't trained for it. Some would pass some may not, but unless they try it, they'll never know. 
Will it affect entries if it is in the premium? Maybe, but these days it's hard to read into something that's not there.

As a side note - Our test is April 9/10 and as of now we have zero dogs entered. We are the same date as an AKC Dbl Sr and Jr with a 2 day Master a few hours away from ours, and it doesn't open for entries for another xx days, so that may be keeping dogs at bay before they commit to one if they get in, or ours if they don't. THIS affects entries. Sorry, kinda changed the subject there.

Bottom line, I'd love to see live fliers used in Finished and Grand tests. Added costs or not, it keeps it interesting, and the dogs deserve it. The amount of money I spend on my one dog, Ha, don't think adding $20 to a test entry will hold me back, if I know it will be fun. Win or lose, Pass or fail, I'll try it.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

TRAIN with live birds or find another dog activity venue- you think ?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

JJaxon said:


> Does it affect handlers? YES, especially in lower stakes, new handlers, young dogs, etc. Many new to the game would say "whats a live flier" and then back step when they realize they haven't trained for it. Some would pass some may not, but unless they try it, they'll never know.
> Will it affect entries if it is in the premium? Maybe, but these days it's hard to read into something that's not there.
> .


This must be in a different part of the country-dog culture, around here live flyers are a given in most testing. AKC & NAHRA, even WC tests, they are required; which is the majority of what we have out here. Thus flyers are expected so that handlers complain, when they don't get one for their dogs. It's good that clubs are allowed to make their own decisions on such things. Still hunting dogs pick up flyers, not sure how good a conservation tool a dog is if it only retrieves cold dead ducks.


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

Given how little retriever clubs usually make on events, I understand the whole replicating a hunt but what I mostly see is $45 in just flyers per dog for that stake. It would be interesting to see the final profit or loss on that club's test.


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

If we had to rely on entry fees as our only source of income, to pay for insurance, grounds, judges, birds, bird boys, and food for same, and misc stuff, we'd have stopped hosting tests a long time ago. Entry fees don't come close to covering the overall cost of a test. We make our margin green by raffle items, big ticket stuff, and a lot of little stuff too. It adds up, if those present buy into the raffle. Most of our workers time adds up to countless free hours, yet they leave tired and smiling.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

....and many of those expenses come long before any income is realized for test entries.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> Here is how it works in akc junior in my area.
> Have gunners shoot 1 bird to start. Give that bird to dead bird station. Run test dog. Give those 2 birds to dead station start test. Rebird after dog 2, 6, 14, 28. (And 56 if needed)
> Do call backs and send extra birds to camp or other stakes. You now have 1 dry fluffy duck for every dog at dead station. So now when you shoot the flyer in the water series every dog has a dry duck. Throw the dead duck water mark first, if they don't retrieve that don't shoot the live flyer.
> For 50 dogs you end up using about 85 birds or so, due to dogs not passing first series or first water bird.
> ...


If you did this to me, and I knew the birds were thawed from last year, I would ask for a complete refund...JH, SH or MH and scratch.
IMO total BS


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

It's probably been done to you, you just didn't know it.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> If you did this to me, and I knew the birds were thawed from last year, I would ask for a complete refund...JH, SH or MH and scratch.
> IMO total BS


I have never run a trial up here where we didn't have thawed birds to start the trial and could care less , you had better stay in Texas....


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Peter Balzer said:


> *long sigh*
> 
> A finished flight for the weekend can easily be completed with 60 ducks for the weekend w/o a flyer compared to 80. That's real money.
> 
> Again, I'm certainly don't mind the flyer, just stating the club has a real financial benefit for not having a flyer because the test can be efficiently run with quality birds in all stakes with less total birds for the weekend.


** Really really long sigh**
A 30 dog Finished flight can be done with 30 dead and 30 live flyers same 60 birds.
Or a finished flight can be done with 3 dead and 60 live flyers with a live flyer shot in land series and one shot in water series. ( need 3 dead to start test)

A 60 dog AKC master test can be done with 80-90 live fliers only by killing 6 to start and shooting 60 in first series and then 15-25 in final series.

The nice thing about flyers is they do not deteriorate until they are shot. All the ducks killed before the test starts are decomposing before the test starts..


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Todd Caswell said:


> OK so have you ever been on the board that helps make sound financial decisions for the club? Both clubs I belong to profit from there tests and trials, they have to if they don't how do you pay for the grounds upkeep, equipment upkeep, or have money up front to put on a test or trial?? I don't judge HRC but when I'm judging a trial I would love to do a flyer in the 4th. series of a derby or a Q but i always ask the club if it is OK more times than not they would rather we didn't for $$ reasons.. And I'm OK with that.. I would rather see the club make a PROFIT and be around next year..


Todd you sound like a very knowledgeable club asset but we are all talking about just having ONE flyer, you're asking for TWO while asking to see clubs PROFIT. Yeah I don't know very many clubs at all that can afford TWO flyers, thats probably not realistic unless the club can afford to lose a little money. I've chaired multiple FTs and HTs making money but thats a bounce. We try to raise money for our flyers or at least half by selling lunches/dinner or putting on a raffle. That money raised usually covers all or most of our flyer costs.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Terry Marshall said:


> If you did this to me, and I knew the birds were thawed from last year, I would ask for a complete refund...JH, SH or MH and scratch.
> IMO total BS


Ha I guarantee that this has been done, never been to a test where the birds used to start weren't, It's actually better as your starting with birds who's internal tempreature has been cool. Animals when killed internal temperature rises, which increases decomposition, bird that are cold inside last longer, stay fresher. We are not talking training birds, that have been used multiple times we are talking a bird that has been retrieved once, wrapped and frozen, then properly thawed, I doubt you could tell the difference BTW those froze and those killed that morning unless someone didn't do the thawing -wrapping properly. Realistically your talking 6 birds used to start a stake, which are then replaced with shot flyers as soon as there's enough of them.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Ha I guarantee that this has been done, never been to a test where the birds used to start weren't, It's actually better as your starting with birds who's internal tempreature has been cool. Animals when killed internal temperature rises, which increases decomposition, bird that are cold inside last longer, stay fresher. We are not talking training birds, that have been used multiple times we are talking a bird that has been retrieved once, wrapped and frozen, then properly thawed, I doubt you could tell the difference BTW those froze and those killed that morning unless someone didn't do the thawing -wrapping properly. Realistically your talking 6 birds used to start a stake, which are then replaced with shot flyers as soon as there's enough of them.


I don't have a problem with this scenario.....it was one many back that claimed they use last years birds.... shot , retrieved multiple times, not dried ... who knows.
Personally my training birds are live ducks, hooded and some euthanized with alcohol. Birds that are shot are not all the same, some have heads some do not, some have wing bones sticking out, some do not. Birds frozen that are not fully dried b 4 freezing will not float (for long).
My whole point is to give all the dogs the same opportunity...... Good birds no matter how you do it.. some bird stewards know how to dry and have the ability and facility to dry birds over night for the 3rd series.. some do not.. some don't know and some don't care.
If a Master test cost $200 and had quality birds for all that entered, I would be first in!


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> Here is how it works in akc junior in my area.
> Have gunners shoot 1 bird to start. Give that bird to dead bird station. Run test dog. Give those 2 birds to dead station start test. Rebird after dog 2, 6, 14, 28. (And 56 if needed)
> Do call backs and send extra birds to camp or other stakes. You now have 1 dry fluffy duck for every dog at dead station. So now when you shoot the flyer in the water series every dog has a dry duck. Throw the dead duck water mark first, if they don't retrieve that don't shoot the live flyer.
> For 50 dogs you end up using about 85 birds or so, due to dogs not passing first series or first water bird.
> ...


I don't get the math or the end result.... Adding it all up you had 140 JH, SH and MH.. You used 220 live birds, that's an average of 1.5 birds per dog, too heavy on JH IMO and weak on SH but the average is good.
So since there is not a mention of FROZEN birds how do they work into next year's test and who has the facility to freeze 200 plus birds


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Terry Marshall said:


> I don't get the math or the end result.... Adding it all up you had 140 JH, SH and MH.. You used 220 live birds, that's an average of 1.5 birds per dog, too heavy on JH IMO and weak on SH but the average is good.
> So since there is not a mention of FROZEN birds how do they work into next year's test and who has the facility to freeze 200 plus birds


What does the AKC rulebook say about live birds?


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Thomas D said:


> What does the AKC rulebook say about live birds?


good question


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Hopefully you're joking.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Thomas D said:


> Hopefully you're joking.


No..... the AKC States how many live ducks a hunt test must start with and it is determined by the number of dogs....?????


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Aint read all posts, but isnt this an HRC question. I didnt think you could use live ammo in HRC?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

All this drama over one supposed bad duck, like who hasn't had a bad duck. Maybe you should volunteer as a bird steward.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Brad said:


> Aint read all posts, but isnt this an HRC question. I didnt think you could use live ammo in HRC?


i don't care who you are it would be damn hard to kill a flyer without a live round..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Terry Marshall said:


> No..... the AKC States how many live ducks a hunt test must start with and it is determined by the number of dogs....?????



Are you 100% against the use of frozen/thawed "dead" birds to start a test??


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## battlemtn (Mar 12, 2013)

I havn't ever seen a live flyer shot at a HRC test


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

Todd Caswell said:


> i don't care who you are it would be damn hard to kill a flyer without a live round..


For some reason I thought Flyers were not aloud in HRC. Because of live ammo.


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

Funny that it took 7 pages to figure this out


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Terry Marshall said:


> I don't get the math or the end result.... Adding it all up you had 140 JH, SH and MH.. You used 220 live birds, that's an average of 1.5 birds per dog, too heavy on JH IMO and weak on SH but the average is good.
> So since there is not a mention of FROZEN birds how do they work into next year's test and who has the facility to freeze 200 plus birds


All the Southern California AKC clubs have 2 live flyers per test in JR/SR/MH. They used to have 3 live flyers in Masters.
All the clubs import the birds from Idaho about 1,000 miles away.
They clubs have been making a small profit for years. 
When you shoot 2 flyers in every test at every level you end up with a lot of birds. 
The clubs give away a lot of birds to the workers but they set aside the best (shot on land only retrieved once) to save for starting the next test.
We did have one test that the birds that we shot did not hold up well and they chose to kill extra birds to start the test rather than use subpar birds.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I have never been to a HRC test that did not shoot live flyers, except the started level where it is prohibited. 
The Handlers in HRC do not shoot live ammo, the live gunners do. 
You can verify all this with the HRC rep for 14A or the past president of HRC who came and judged one of the tests at PBHRC


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Thomas D said:


> What does the AKC rulebook say about live birds?


The AKC rule book requires that 2 live birds per entry be made available for use at the discretion of the judges at all test levels.
It also says that a Minimum of 1 live flyer shall be shot for senior and master (local laws permitting).
So 2 live birds per entry have to be there and the AKC reps have started checking...


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> I have never been to a HRC test that did not shoot live flyers, except the started level where it is prohibited.
> The Handlers in HRC do not shoot live ammo, the live gunners do.
> You can verify all this with the HRC rep for 14A or the past president of HRC who came and judged one of the tests at PBHRC


You must be very Junior as the Shot Flier is relatively new.


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## Raygator1 (Apr 27, 2015)

The shot flyer in HRC is not new, and has been an available option.
last time I judged a flyer in finished was at Central FL HRC the first year they held an HRC test in conjunction with an AKC test. The killed birds were added into the dead bird stations as the test progressed.
It was well executed, added to the test and I don't recall any bitching or whining, even though a goodly number of MH's who get a regular diet of flyers, did not pass the test, which should tell you that there was a lot more to the test than a live bird


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Terry Marshall said:


> You must be very Junior as the Shot Flier is relatively new.


HRC is relatively new and very spread out in most of the Western U.S., the western HRC clubs are hundreds of miles from each other. AKC and NARHA are what is primarily ran in most of the West, so when an HRC club is Started by people used to tests that required flyers in every stake, they tend to push for their use. Also it's important to note that the handlers who's horizons your trying to expand are also used to getting flyers, thus it's rather foreign for them to pay an entry fee and not get them. Which is why if you run HRC in the west your more likely to have clubs-judges pushing for flyers. Most of the MT clubs have used flyers, So. Cal always has flyers. I believe the new Dakota club uses flyers, hopefully I get to chance to find out . It's just really something that many of these clubs need to be able to encourage entries into a newer testing venue, if the venue is going to be able to survive along side AKC and NAHRA oriented tests-dog cultures.

P.S. as K. Greenwood's club is PBHRC and the nearest HRC club to PBHRC "distance" wise is Grand Junction CO (~720miles) or New Mexico (~800miles). It's most likely he hasn't ran an HRC test without a Flyer, because PBHRC has always had them .


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Raygator1 said:


> The shot flyer in HRC is not new, and has been an available option.
> last time I judged a flyer in finished was at Central FL HRC the first year they held an HRC test in conjunction with an AKC test. The killed birds were added into the dead bird stations as the test progressed.
> It was well executed, added to the test and I don't recall any bitching or whining, even though a goodly number of MH's who get a regular diet of flyers, did not pass the test, which should tell you that there was a lot more to the test than a live bird


Although I do get your point, Just because a dog is a MH does not necessarily mean they get "a goodly number of flyers".


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## Raygator1 (Apr 27, 2015)

Flyer wasn't the deal Thomas, I'm thinking you might have been there.
flFact that it was out of order which required handler involvement and decisions as to how to best pick it up, and the epic right hand mark with the no no log en-route.
most of the afore mentioned dogs sent for the RH mark first and bailed on it winding up in a wasteland 60 yards behind the flyer station on the left 3 zip codes away.
its probably still on YouTube somewhere.
failure to go where sent is what cause dogs not to get the all precious strip of cloth.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Terry Marshall said:


> You must be very Junior as the Shot Flier is relatively new.


I am a newbie to HRC..
I do have the first dog to ever get a pass in California.
I only have about 250 points on my second dog, so I am a total newbie. 
One of the reasons we formed The first California HRC club was we liked the venue and could not believe the support we got from HRC and the HRC community.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Raygator1 said:


> Flyer wasn't the deal Thomas, I'm thinking you might have been there.
> flFact that it was out of order which required handler involvement and decisions as to how to best pick it up, and the epic right hand mark with the no no log en-route.
> most of the afore mentioned dogs sent for the RH mark first and bailed on it winding up in a wasteland 60 yards behind the flyer station on the left 3 zip codes away.
> its probably still on YouTube somewhere.
> ...



I was there but didn't run it.

Test looked to be a good one. Just wanted to clarify that most MH dogs stayed over at the MH and that MH does not necessarily see a lot of flyers in training. Can but some don't. As a matter of fact one or two dogs in your flight I know for
A fact don't and don't really train during week. All this to say a flyer would be a big deal to those dogs, let alone an Out of order one.


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## Raygator1 (Apr 27, 2015)

The AKC MH dogs were welcome to come and run the finished test with flyer for free that day, several did, their handlers were also welcome to sit behind us and ask any questions, many did.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> I am a newbie to HRC..
> I do have the first dog to ever get a pass in California.
> I only have about 250 points on my second dog, so I am a total newbie.
> One of the reasons we formed The first California HRC club was we liked the venue and could not believe the support we got from HRC and the HRC community.


Settle down girl...in our country the Shot Flier is still percolating!!!


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