# AI breeding questions/concerns



## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

We’ve been waiting for 2 yrs for this upcoming breeding and go figure she comes in while I’m out of the country for 4 wks. I believe all things have been taken care of as getting her to the vet (lee Payne in Oxford) and straw has been taken care what else do I need to take care of? 
Also, the only other time I’ve done ai was with my other cosmo bitch and we tried twice with no luck. This will be zee’s 3rd litter other 2 natural breedings what should I expect with this one compared to the others?

Thanks


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Sounds like you're experienced, so forgive me if you already know this, but in addition to progesterone testing, we've also started doing LH surge.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Curious as to why you do an LH surge as my Repro vets don't? We are more interested in reaching a certain range of progesterone numbers. I like 20-24 on frozen. I've done many and only 1 miss and I think she reabsorbed.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> Curious as to why you do an LH surge as my Repro vets don't? We are more interested in reaching a certain range of progesterone numbers. I like 20-24 on frozen. I've done many and only 1 miss and I think she reabsorbed.


Because what we have been told, LH surge is a more accurate prediction of ovulation. I can tell you this: My wife raises very high quality Golden retrievers (she's had her line since 1978. One of her males is a Bronze Grand Champion and was the #1 Owner Handled Golden retriever in the country. - he hasn't been shown as much recently and is now #6, I think). She tried to breed that dog's sister 3 times (different studs), all side-by-side AI and every breeding failed. Finally, she did LH surge in addition to progesterone and the LH surge indicated that she ovulates much earlier than normal (she ovulates at 1.5 progesterone). She got pregnant that time (this past spring) and whelped a lovely litter. Now, having said that, I've bred my Annie (Meglyn's Lil Miss Sureshot SH), twice in the last year. First was two transcervicals, 2 days apart (breed, skip a day, breed) with fresh-chilled, to Tubb. Progesterone only. Breeding failed. In October, I bred her to Flex, surgical, frozen. Progesterone and LH surge. Breeding still failed. I'm at my wits end. Don't know why it failed. Her uterus and ovaries are healthy. I'm going to try again. I'm also going to do a consult with Hutch (Robert Hutchinson D.V.M.) and may switch to him (I used to use him as a repro vet. He's the gold standard. I switched to my wife's repro vet, but I've been disappointed. I'm not saying it's his fault. All I know at this point is I had our animal communicator "talk" to Annie a couple of weeks ago after I learned of the failed breeding and she said that Annie told her she wants puppies, but the communicator, who is also a Reike Master, said her second chakra is too narrow and she needs accupuncture. Hey, any harbor in a storm.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I know they’re doing progesterone not sure what else.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Switch to Hutch and leave them there. My Repro follows what Hutch does. I never do AI side by side anymore. I had someone come here and did it with my stud and I haven't heard if it took but I bet not. They do fresh semen TUI 2 days in a row and frozen day 3 or 4 depending on the progesterone. If I don't believe the inhouse progesterone I have them send the sample to a reference lab. It is not impossible for the machine to be off. As a Med Tech we ran more controls than they are told to do, at least daily. They are told only to do it on the kit when the box is opened.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Brett, you are in good hands with Lee. I have never missed. He does the progesterone in house now.
Good luck.
MP


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Lee has taken care of Several of my dogs I just haven’t done an ai since the double fail I had trying about 7 years ago. I’ve put off doing this breeding until now so I’m super pumped.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

I just do progesterone. Test every couple days until numbers start to climb. She should ovulate 36 hours after reaching 2.2, have to have a test below 5 and a test above 5 to confirm ovulation, and then you're done. No point in continuing to spend money after you know she's ovulated although there are still some vets who like to test. Eggs take 2 days to be ready to fertilize so breed with fresh or chilled 48 hours after ovulation and frozen 48-72 hours after. Because progesterone doubles daily, 48 hours is about a 20...but again, not really any point to testing once you know ovulation happened.


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## Andy (Apr 20, 2004)

Mike Perry said:


> Brett, you are in good hands with Lee. I have never missed. He does the progesterone in house now.
> Good luck.
> MP


AGREED!
Just leave it to Lee! 
Among others, he did a surgical AI for our Jake x Lucy breeding and we ended up with great results.
Andy


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

The good thing is I really can do nothing else but send text or emails from here in Germany and just pray all gets handled while I’m gone.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

IdahoLabs said:


> I just do progesterone. Test every couple days until numbers start to climb. She should ovulate 36 hours after reaching 2.2, have to have a test below 5 and a test above 5 to confirm ovulation, and then you're done. No point in continuing to spend money after you know she's ovulated although there are still some vets who like to test. Eggs take 2 days to be ready to fertilize so breed with fresh or chilled 48 hours after ovulation and frozen 48-72 hours after. Because progesterone doubles daily, 48 hours is about a 20...but again, not really any point to testing once you know ovulation happened.


I used to think that, but after having several oddball bitches that stall or possibly don't ovulate at 5 until later, if I really want the breeding to take, I do one later progesterone to make sure they are still rising. Pay for one more progesterone to get a litter. My repro specialists see it that way too. I would rather skip them in the beginning. I have a neutered male that helps make my decisions and he is very accurate.


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## Ries74 (Jan 28, 2015)

Sounds like you are in great hands. From what I have heard Lee is very good at what he does.


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## gregjohnson (Nov 30, 2006)

Question for Nancy regarding your comment of not wanting to do side by side AI. I have limited experience breeding dogs but have had good success (different studs and females) both times we performed side by side AI and the time we did fail was a surgical AI with frozen semen. Not trying to argue just looking for more insight into your decision.


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## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

I have a Roux litter on the ground now that was done by frozen surgical, 11 fat and healthy 3 week old pups. If the female has fertile eggs, Your success depends on who you choose to do it. I use Lewis Greene & Associates in Covington, La . I have personally never did a surgical that did not have pups. I hear Lee is good also.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

gregjohnson said:


> Question for Nancy regarding your comment of not wanting to do side by side AI. I have limited experience breeding dogs but have had good success (different studs and females) both times we performed side by side AI and the time we did fail was a surgical AI with frozen semen. Not trying to argue just looking for more insight into your decision.


I have never had luck with side by side AI, except maybe once long time ago with Mary Howley, and thinking back on it there was a very short tie and then we did an AI to cover it because it was just weird. I have a significant amount of friends and mentor that breed a lot that had the same experiences and that was a miss. In fact the most recent breeding with my stud who so far was 20 for 20 now has a miss because it had to be done AI side by side because she was too wild to breed, acted like a bucking bronco as soon as he touched her. The young lady that brought her has bench females who she *always* does AI side by side and she is very good at it, takes more time than the vet feathering. We had the discussion that it never seems to work on field bitches, possibly because there is no tie because the TCI's work and they have a pressure cuff that is used to simulate the tie. He has a very high count and collects easily. We did progesterones and 2 ties. My advice was, since the same thing happened last time with the same bitch and a different stud, she is one of those that has to have progesterone AND estrogen meaning bitches demeanor get together. I told him to get a male teaser for her, a male she likes and then breed if she becomes receptive later. I can remember being asked about a breeding years ago where progesterone showed ready and FC male who was bred a lot not interested. Repeated the progesterone and still good. However they kept the bitch for another week and 7 days later she was receptive, and there were 10 pups, right Dr Nate? Some bitches breed later because they actually stall a bit. I will go to surgical before side by side AI. I usually do TCI on my frozen semen. The only miss I ever had was I believe a reabsorption by the bitch because I believe she was pregnant. My feeling is the field bitches need that tie or at least mine do. I've also had a few that escalated very rapidly and we were breeding on the same day of the the first progesterone on day 8 so by the time we got to the appointment she had to be at 40, and we got 10 pups. We were both thinking we are wasting our time on a Saturday afternoon and she had more pups than she ever did. She had had only 3 or 4- 3 times when done by the book when she was younger. Therefore, know your dogs. If side by side works, do it, but with mine I am asking for a miss, and do TCI or would do surgical.


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## gregjohnson (Nov 30, 2006)

I laugh at your comment to to "know your dog" - I''m still trying to figure it out. Or first attempt was a surgical AI with frozen semen attempt at Inver Grove Heights Animal Hospital which resulted in no puppies and a determination by them she was a "sub-fertile girl". Our next attempt (same female) was a natural breeding attempt but couldn't get a tie so we went to the local vet who performed a side by side AI. She claimed my female had a higher pelvic shelf making it difficult to get a natural tie. We had 12 puppies. Our third attempt (different stud) was a natural breeding and the stud had no problem with the breeding resultinng in 13 puppies. So I don't know what to think - subfertile female producing 12+ puppies, higher shelf that the next stud had no problem with natural breeding. I thinking it is an inexact science at best.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

It's not an exact science as most people think. Breed at this time and viola. Natural is best. As time goes on they are learning more about cycle variances. A higher pelvic shelf I've had on several. A very experienced more aggressive stud may have no problems. They have to kind of learn to go up and over because otherwise they hit a wall and think they are there. I've been doing it almost 40 years and there are many wacko problems that can happen.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Got a message last night the procedure was done and she was ready to be picked up. Now we have to wait and see what we get. Hopefully, I’ll get my next star from this breeding.


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## Jake Greenwell (Feb 28, 2005)

Don Smith said:


> Sounds like you're experienced, so forgive me if you already know this, but in addition to progesterone testing, we've also started doing LH surge.


Our local repro vet has also started doing LH surge in addition to progesterone.


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## Aleksksks (Sep 19, 2018)

My girl Lucy's mom just had a litter from AI. The stud was dead for I believe 4 years. She had 8 pups (1 girl, 7 boys). Dam is 4 years old. So the older frozen doesn't seem to have limited the size of the litter. I'm not a breeder so I don't know much about the whole thing. You can find more tips here https://petdt.com


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I have had good luck doing side by sides. I’ve only done a few but never had one fail to this point. 



ErinsEdge said:


> It's not an exact science as most people think. Breed at this time and viola. Natural is best. As time goes on they are learning more about cycle variances. A higher pelvic shelf I've had on several. A very experienced more aggressive stud may have no problems. They have to kind of learn to go up and over because otherwise they hit a wall and think they are there. I've been doing it almost 40 years and there are many wacko problems that can happen.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Well, I got the dreaded news from the X-ray this week 1 puppy is all we are having. I freakin hate AI. This is the third try with 2 different dams and sires and vets and only 1 puppy to show for it. I'm really going to be pissed if this one is a male been waiting 3 years to do this breeding and planned on keeping a female. Amazing how we can do a natural and get 10, do a natural and get 9, play the numbers do everything according the book and strike out. This is going to be one expensive puppy.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Sorry for your experience! 
Dang !!!!!
Our AI with Lee in Dec resulted in 10 healthy pups. I sure hope the AI done with frozen semen means they ll be good in cold water 
Dk


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

It definitely is not Lee’s fault he did everything by the book it’s just my luck with ai”s. Hopefully this will be a girl so at least I can get my next trial pup started. This had the potential to be a great breeding NFC Emmitt and my QA2 cosmo bitch.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Sorry but I have never had luck with AI's along with many other breeders I know who have multiple failures and don't do them.. The noobs always have luck it seems. The only AI I have luck with is the endoscope one with the blood pressure cuff to simulate the tie. That is 100% except one where she reabsorbed so not on the procedure. Now you have to worry if she will go into labor or you will need a c-section on top of the breeding expense.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Just when we think we know what we are doing.... When I bred my bitch to a dog in Wisconsin, I drove her up for a natural breeding. She wanted to breed but he wanted nothing to do with her, kind of reverse of the usual with an experienced breeder stud. After several days the stud owner took my bitch to his repro vet. Her progesterone was 23, we figured it was just a weird heat, missed her and could try next time, doing mroe testing. The next day he had them out together and sure as heck, they tied. Stud was going to a field trial so we only got one shot. I called the repro vet and asked him what he thought, he said doubt if she got pregnant, or might be a very small litter. We had 6, 3 boys and 3 girls. I called him again just to let him know and he laughed and said the typical case to make us all look stupid.
So you just never know.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I was called on your breeding. It made no sense, but guess what, Joe's brother did the same thing, but on his first breeding, and also a week later just when you were giving up, all by themselves she smelled good. Those boys liked the high numbers I guess. I have also had a couple bitches that have more pups when the numbers are real high.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Some repro vets now test even after progesterone reaches 5. What they are looking is a 3-4 nanogram jump in a 24 hour period after the bitch reaches 5. So if your bitch is at 5.1 and she is tested the next day and only goes to a 5.3, she probably didn't ovulate. If she goes from a 5.1 to 9.1 the next day, she probably ovulated. 

So, as Nancy said in her post, it is worth it to keep testing even after reaching the supposed magic number of 5. At least according to some repro vets.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

We keep learning how to tweak these cycles and now higher is better. Sometimes they even surprise me. My neutered Toy Fox Terrier is the bomb and has a very important job of the double checker here.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

2 breeding's ago mine hit 5 and I got in the truck and drove 8 hrs figuring she would be ready the next day. No luck, sire tried a few times but just wasn't time. Next day same thing on the 4th day they tied. Got another tie the next day( could not stay another day) and drove home. We ended up with 10 pups. 4 females 6 males. From now on I'll test the next few days to see the spike. My vet actually wanted me to test again when I got up there but hard head me didn't think it was necessary.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

You know I'm glad there are all these procedures that can be done to get puppies. I'm also glad that they work very well for some people. However in my book nothing better than the old fashion way; just seems to work better for me. And that is why I will be driving across the country, to ensure a tie once my girl comes in this next time. It's going to be very inconvenient but I'm so tired of failure or smaller litter sizes using the newer technologies. I just don't have the luck.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Driving across the country is much more stressful on a bitch than a 10 min TCI in their own vet office.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Kitty 

Feb. 27 0.5
Mar. 1 1.1
Mar. 3 2.59
Mar. 5 7.6
Mar. 8 TCI #1
Mar. 9 TCI #2

Got to watch both TCI - very interesting. Got to view a slide of the sperm - also fascinating.

We'll see if all this weird science works. 

Ted


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> Kitty
> 
> Feb. 27 0.5
> Mar. 1 1.1
> ...


Ted, Did you pull a progesterone on the 8th and 9th? Just curious...


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> Kitty
> 
> Feb. 27 0.5
> Mar. 1 1.1
> ...


Hope it does Ted. It is weird science, very fascinating stuff.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Troy Tilleraas said:


> Ted, Did you pull a progesterone on the 8th and 9th? Just curious...



Troy

No more progesterone testing. Dr. Hess - the repro specialist - was confident based on jump from 2.59 to 7.6 that Kitty was ovulating. She said that condition of uterus on TCI 2 was confirmation that we hit the sweet spot. We'll see. 

Ted


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## Delta Whitetail (Sep 1, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> Troy
> 
> No more progesterone testing. Dr. Hess - the repro specialist - was confident based on jump from 2.59 to 7.6 that Kitty was ovulating. She said that condition of uterus on TCI 2 was confirmation that we hit the sweet spot. We'll see.
> 
> Ted


Ted, As usual, your posts are very informative and helpful. Would you please keep us updated as to how things turn out and let us know if the "weird science" theory has merit. I would surely be interested to know. Best of luck with the breeding. I have a girl I will be breeding on her next cycle. I have only done 1 breeding prior and it was to a NAFC Fresh Chilled stud on a maiden bitch that produced 6 pups . I wish I would have had enough sense to keep up with the data to be able to do a comparison


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I suppose each specialist has their their own nuances. Having in-house progesterone testing we always do a test before the TCI and my specialist likes them over 15 on frozen and I especially like 20-24. At 14, I came back the next day. It sounds like this was chilled and so was done back to back.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Nancy: Is Dr. Greer your specialist? Dr. Greer says breed 48 hours after ovulation if using fresh chilled but wait until 20 ng/ml if using frozen because of the short life of previously frozen and because 20 ng/ml ensures there is enough progesterone to maintain the pregnancy.

If anyone wants to study in-depth I highly recommend Dr. Greer's book. Can be found on Amazon (pricey, tho).

Good luck with your litter Ted Shih.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

According to Kutritz, Successful Breeding and Health Management, ovulation occurs at 4.0 - 10.0. Page 137. Recommends frozen at Ovulation plus 3 if performed once, Ovulation plus 3, 4 if performed twice. 306. Results also dependent upon your particular testing machine. 

See also www.petcoach.co/article/hormone-levels-determining-breeding-times-and-whelping-date


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

J. Marti said:


> Nancy: Is Dr. Greer your specialist? Dr. Greer says breed 48 hours after ovulation if using fresh chilled but wait until 20 ng/ml if using frozen because of the short life of previously frozen and because 20 ng/ml ensures there is enough progesterone to maintain the pregnancy.
> 
> If anyone wants to study in-depth I highly recommend Dr. Greer's book. Can be found on Amazon (pricey, tho).


Yes and Dr Zella does most of my TCI's. Dr Greer follows Dr Hutchinson, but Dr Zella went to a hands on seminar on performing the TCI's so I just go with what he says on the timing which has worked I believe 100%. One female I think reabsorbed which was her problem. The only time I used fresh chilled was when the timing should have been right for natural, but the bitch said it wasn't, and my dog was leaving to run a trial shortly. When we did the fresh chilled that was done at 12ng/ml and the next morning by splitting the sample. I'm not 100% sure why besides the possible stalling they like the higher numbers for frozen, but they determined the procedure is more successful (and I have seen more puppies). She has been telling me for years to do an extra progesterone after they ovulate in case they stall after they ovulate, so now I do. I had read an article 10-15% could stall, which possibly accounts for enough that they don't take. I have a couple of bitches with goofy cycles and they get settled.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Today was the day got 1 healthy not over sized female pup, both mom and pup are doing well.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

BrettG said:


> Today was the day got 1 healthy not over sized female pup, both mom and pup are doing well.


That's always helpful if they are average size and they go into labor. You lucked out. Congrats.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

ErinsEdge said:


> ...I'm not 100% sure why besides the possible stalling they like the higher numbers for frozen, but they determined the procedure is more successful (and I have seen more puppies).


Waiting until 20 ng for frozen is to make sure eggs are fully mature because previously frozen sperm are only going to live 12-24 hours according to Dr. Greer and the Sirius people out in California. 

For people interested in Dr. Greer's book, published in 2014, winner of the Dog Writer's of America best book that year. https://www.amazon.com/Canine-Repro...508&linkCode=qs&qid=1552516717&s=books&sr=1-1


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

They used to say bitches ovulated all the eggs at once but in some it is over a few days so yes. if some aren't mature. they can't be fertilized.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Brett G, I'm glad you got a healthy pup. This has been an informative thread.

Here's my story:

"Love"

Feb 3 1st blood
Feb 8 pg- 0.3 ng
Feb 11 pg- 2.95 ng
Feb 13 pg- 12.0 ng
Feb 15 pg- 23.0 ng
Feb 15 Surgical Insemination with frozen semen
Mar 13 Ultrasound confirmed pregnancy (Vet said 4 on one side and 3 on the other plus could be 1 more)

I chose to do surgical vice TCI based on using Vintage semen and the semen count/motility. I decided that surgical would provide me with the best chance of conception. I am really excited about what's ahead. Lots to do. Harry


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

ErinsEdge said:


> They used to say bitches ovulated all the eggs at once but in some it is over a few days so yes. if some aren't mature. they can't be fertilized.


Yes. There was also a recent paper looking at conception rate/litter size based on how quickly the bitch ovulated. If rate of progesterone rise to ovulation was fast or normal, breed as usual for chilled or frozen semen. If rate of progesterone rise was slow, then breed late if using frozen because she would ovulate over a long period of time.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

IdahoLabs said:


> Yes. There was also a recent paper looking at conception rate/litter size based on how quickly the bitch ovulated. If rate of progesterone rise to ovulation was fast or normal, breed as usual for chilled or frozen semen. If rate of progesterone rise was slow, then breed late if using frozen because she would ovulate over a long period of time.


Very Interesting! and that's what I have seen on my oddball. She was going up very slowly and I decided against the frozen at the last minute and did natural. My vet agreed with me. The time before she whelped later by 3 days than she should have with that time of ovulation and it bothered me. I looked up the time I switched to natural and she had 15! (13 survived). So that's what was happening. The following time she was having a more normal cycle and then I did the frozen. I had a different female that I went by the book and she had 4 a couple of times. Then she appeared to be starting in heat, determined by the Toy Fox, took her in on day 6 was at 36. She could have been silent, but I went ahead and did frozen that afternoon when she was probably 40 something, and she had 10.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

IdahoLabs said:


> Yes. There was also a recent paper looking at conception rate/litter size based on how quickly the bitch ovulated. If rate of progesterone rise to ovulation was fast or normal, breed as usual for chilled or frozen semen. If rate of progesterone rise was slow, then breed late if using frozen because she would ovulate over a long period of time.


Would you post the source of that please?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

EdA said:


> Would you post the source of that please?


 For me too.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

EdA said:


> Would you post the source of that please?


I'm not sure if this link will work - let me know if not and I'll send the PDF to your email. 

Normal progesterone profiles during estrus in the bitch: A prospective analysis of 1420 estrous cycles. Theriogenology 125 (2019) 37-42.
https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Pr...Ba27Za_lUo7pKLxFCPDwuTrsKU0BV3x38XAUojimpGNCL


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

IdahoLabs said:


> I'm not sure if this link will work - let me know if not and I'll send the PDF to your email.
> 
> Normal progesterone profiles during estrus in the bitch: A prospective analysis of 1420 estrous cycles. Theriogenology 125 (2019) 37-42.
> https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Pr...Ba27Za_lUo7pKLxFCPDwuTrsKU0BV3x38XAUojimpGNCL


That sends me to Facebook, for many reasons I deactivated my Facebook account months ago.


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## championretrievers (Feb 7, 2008)

Here is the abstract. I have not found the full article yet. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0093691X18304114?via=ihub


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

EdA said:


> That sends me to Facebook, for many reasons I deactivated my Facebook account months ago.


I wondered if it would do that - it was originally posted on a Facebook breeder veterinarian group. I just sent it to your email.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I'm sure Dr Greer subscribes to the journal. I'll get the whole article.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Very Interesting! and that's what I have seen on my oddball. She was going up very slowly and I decided against the frozen at the last minute and did natural. My vet agreed with me. The time before she whelped later by 3 days than she should have with that time of ovulation and it bothered me. I looked up the time I switched to natural and she had 15! (13 survived). So that's what was happening. The following time she was having a more normal cycle and then I did the frozen. I had a different female that I went by the book and she had 4 a couple of times. Then she appeared to be starting in heat, determined by the Toy Fox, took her in on day 6 was at 36. She could have been silent, but I went ahead and did frozen that afternoon when she was probably 40 something, and she had 10.


Here is my oddball and have to admit, it would have been interesting to know what the LH was but... 
Day 9: 0.4ng
Day 11: 2.9 ng
Day 14(Mon): 7.4 ng (1st collection shipped for Tues 4pm AI)
Day 16: 17.2ng (2nd collection shipped for Thurs ~1215pm AI)
I figure there was a stall in there between Friday & Mon as the prog rise between day 14 & 16 was very standard compared to many other curves I've generated. I defaulted to using the 5.0ng as a reference, and lucked out. Also, stud owner had said she liked the 2nd AI to be done at or after 18-20 (I think... would have to check my notes). Obviously we were successful but would have been nice to know what happened there over the weekend in retrospect. 

I estimated 1st AI to be done at ~12ng , 2nd at ~22ng. I estimated ovulation at Mon in the wee hours. 
Bitch went into labor on day 58, started whelping late on 58 (last Wed pm), ending ~16-18 hrs later (last 2 puppies were DOA). 
What was crazy was the puppies were all great sized (13.9 - 18.8 oz) other than #9 which was tiny (only 109 g or ~4 oz). #10 was good sized at ~13oz but DOA. 
Nails were very short at birth compared to my normal (usually have to clip right away), but pups were not lacking hair or anything. All were very vigorous at birth except for one that I had to work on a bit to get going. Anne


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Here is my oddball and have to admit, it would have been interesting to know what the LH was but...
> Day 9: 0.4ng
> Day 11: 2.9 ng
> Day 14(Mon): 7.4 ng (1st collection shipped for Tues 4pm AI)
> ...


 Looks pretty average to me. What's the question? Why do you think there is a stall? What were you expecting the number to be on the Monday? Whelping on 58, some of them do that especially on the first litter.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Bitches routinely stall when still under 5.0 ng. Under 5.0 ng, the numbers go up and down a few times. That's why most vets don't want to test every day until the bitch reaches at least 5.0 ng.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Looks pretty average to me. What's the question? Why do you think there is a stall? What were you expecting the number to be on the Monday? Whelping on 58, some of them do that especially on the first litter.


Because my normal progression from a 2.9 would have had ovulation w/in 1.5 to 2 days. So I believe there was a day there of stalling, which worked out great for me since the stud owner was unable to collect/ship until that Monday. (ETA, I thought we were going to be at 12 by Monday based on previous history w/ her & her mom/grams etc. This was her 2nd litter too. First was a natural w/ 11 smaller than these but decent sized puppies, born on day 60).


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I honestly think it is totally normal.


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## BrownEliza_16 (Aug 8, 2019)

What is LH surge?
please guide me about this. I dont know about it.
DogBedsView


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

google Luteinizing Hormone, it is the hormone that triggers ovulation.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I truly think since we have had progesterone testing, we have females who probably wouldn't have gotten bred 25 years ago, and so we can have some stranger things happening during their cycles. The biggest mistake is thinking they all have cycles alike or stopping testing at ovulation. I have my back up heat detector, a neutered Toy Fox Terrier who is very accurate and harmless.


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## BrownEliza_16 (Aug 8, 2019)

How to give him a training? and whats the ideal age to take your pup to the trainer? Nom Nom


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