# Force Fetch and Hard Mouth



## smokeshow (Apr 12, 2008)

Dog has been through a force fetch program and has developed a hard mouth issue.

Will going back through the entire force fetch program cure hard mouth?


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

Could be something that did not get properly communicated to the dog or it could be just the dog. But by putting the dog back on the table and being aware of the issue, you can establish how strongly you are going to respond even to the slightest bit of hard mouthing. If you let the problem get entrenched, it will haunt you from now on. I speak from experience. After eight failed master tests because of hard mouth issues, I put mine back on the table and re-established our relationship and we finished a master title and 13 or 14 straight master passes. However, that demon still lives within her. It almost cost us a master national qualification.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Can you be more specific about your return to the table to fix this? I can take my dog out and pinch his ear all day, and he will move a mountain to fetch that bird and hold just fine. Then when the excitement kicks in during field work, here he comes, munching all the way back to me. He's not eating the birds, or freezing on them, just chomp chomp chomp on the way back. I have tried all kinds of corrections and have not found the key. I have had him pick up glass coke bottles, etc. and it works fine as long as we are doing that. But it just doesn't stick!

Alas, one more of the many demons we face.


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## smokeshow (Apr 12, 2008)

> Can you be more specific about your return to the table to fix this? I can take my dog out and pinch his ear all day, and he will move a mountain to fetch that bird and hold just fine. Then when the excitement kicks in during field work, here he comes, munching all the way back to me. He's not eating the birds, or freezing on them, just chomp chomp chomp on the way back. I have tried all kinds of corrections and have not found the key. I have had him pick up glass coke bottles, etc. and it works fine as long as we are doing that. But it just doesn't stick!
> 
> Alas, one more of the many demons we face.


Yes, this sounds very very very very similar to my issue. Except my dog is down right chomping on the them and wanting to eat the bird....only small birds that is.
I was hoping that starting FF all over again could help correct this issue.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

The command "fetch" is a command of action. It means the dog is supposed to reach out and pick up whatever you indicate. The command "hold" is a command of stability. It means the dog is supposed to hold GENTLY and quietly, whatever is already in his mouth. 
Most likely your problem started when you didn't properly teach "HOLD" before you moved on to "fetch" so when you go back to the table, work on "hold", not "fetch" and don't be too surprised if your dog never gets over the problem. FF is one of the cornerstones of the foundation. If you make a mistake there the dog may never recover.
Lynn


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

I had her to hold everything in sight from fresh birds to frozen birds, dummies, metal pipes, wooden dowels and anything else I could find. I also taught her to drop the object in my hand. Our worst hard mouth incidents came when I got hold of a bird and she starting backing up and not letting go. I also think the tone of voice I did these commands in communicated to her that no BS would be tolerated. Also, indirect pressure on sit I think is very crittical. Sit is a command that should be deeply entrenched and if your in a test or trial situation, you can get away with a little harsher sit command and hopefully survive. This dog never had hard mouth issues in training only at tests.


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## Carlo Iacobucci (Oct 15, 2007)

MIDTNGRNHEAD said:


> I had her to hold everything in sight from fresh birds to frozen birds, dummies, metal pipes, wooden dowels and anything else I could find. I also taught her to drop the object in my hand. Our worst hard mouth incidents came when I got hold of a bird and she starting backing up and not letting go. I also think the tone of voice I did these commands in communicated to her that no BS would be tolerated. Also, indirect pressure on sit I think is very crittical. Sit is a command that should be deeply entrenched and if your in a test or trial situation, you can get away with a little harsher sit command and hopefully survive. This dog never had hard mouth issues in training only at tests.


So if it only happens at tests, as it happens with my dog,how does one address the problem?.All week she has been retrieving fresh dead pigeons and holding a live one without so much as rufling a feather.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

I'm having to read between the lines here but I noticed that both of you mentioned that your dog had held birds but you did not say the dog had retrieved live birds in training so I am assuming you did not throw clipwings or shackled birds for your dog before you stepped up to the line in a hunt test. Is this correct?


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

I am not a big fan of re-force fetching. Here is why. Hard mouth is never the dog's fault. It is almost always something that went awry with the FF process itself, CC, or transition (going from basics to real field setups).

Force fetch is NOT designed to teach a dog how to fetch. Properly applied, it DOES teach a dog how to handle pressure. A dog with hardmouth issues is not handling pressure correctly, and is letting the pressure of competition to be released via rolling, mouthing, or outright chomping of birds.

Repeating force fetch will not fix this, especially if the same person who did it the first time does it the second. There are drills you should use to teach your dog how to handle pressure, and that "here means here" under all circumstances. Once you get this understood, the hardmouth will be less problematic. I'd get some guidance from a pro on how to proceed with cleaning this issue up.

Then, you need to translate what was taught in basics to the field. Many dogs develop mouth issues during this transition phase. An experienced person knows how to differentiate between a dog who is just putting it together (applying what was taught on the basics field to what goes on in a marking setup), vs. a dog with a real problem. Having a disinterested second pair of eyes assess your dog would be very valuable at this point.

Lisa


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

"There are drills you should use to teach your dog how to handle pressure, and that "here means here" under all circumstances."

Can you tell me about these drills? I am 100% sure you have hit the nail on the head, at least for my dog. He clearly starts the chomping when the pressure is on. There has been a ton of it lately (pressure that is) working on all his line manners (or lack thereof) issues.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Bill
How well did your dog demonstrate her understanding of the command "give" or "drop" during training? I ask this because I have seen too many trainers work really hard on "fetch" and totally ignore the release command and end up with dogs that "stick" on the bird. If you properly FF your dog he should willingly back away from the bird as soon as he feels you take the weight.
Usually no command is, or should be, necessary.
Another possiblity to consider is how you take delivery of the bird. I had a friend who was a very successful amature trainer, ruin one of the finest master hunters on the west coast by improperly receiving the bird. The dog was properly FF, in fact the problem would not have happened if she were not. The trainer would take the bird from the dog by grasping the tip of a wing, or the leg or bill and pull the bird from the dog's mouth. The last thing the dog would feel was the bird falling from her mouth because the handler did not have hold of the body of the bird. As she had been taught not to let that happen she would try to "catch" the bird again before it fell. The end result was a dog so "sticky" she could not get past the first series.

I have FF well over 200 dogs and experience taught me that FF is not complete until the dog absolutely understands all the commands and skills necessary to complete a single retrieve. Once you send the dog, those are "fetch" what I sent you for. "hold" it gently all the way to my side and "give" it up willingly as soon as you feel me take the weight. Not one of the dogs I FF ever developed hard mouth so I have developed a tremendous amount of faith in a COMPLETE FF program and it is not complete without the extensive use of live birds.

You asked how to fix the problem and I have not yet addressed that specificly so try this. Go back to the ff table and thoroughly teach "hold" and "give" finishing with live birds. Then go to the ground and have the dog walk at heel while holding a live bird. Do heeling drills with pinch collar and leash whith the dog holding live birds. Then go to the yard and do retrieves using live birds. (clip wings) When the dog can complete these excercises with no mouth problems you can progress to the training field and throw marks using clip wing birds. When the birds all come back alive and uninjured you can go to a hunt test or trial.

For those of you who are reading this with a new pup coming or already arrived, take note. The fastest way to end up with this kind of mouth problem in your dog is squeaky toys. GET RID OF THEM!

I noticed Lisa posted a reply while I was writing this. Even though my post does not agree exactly with hers you should pay very close attention to what she said. Force Fetch, done improperly, can open Pandora's box and once the demon is out it is very difficult to get him back in the bottle.
Lynn


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## smokeshow (Apr 12, 2008)

Fetch - Hold! said:


> Bill
> How well did your dog demonstrate her understanding of the command "give" or "drop" during training? I ask this because I have seen too many trainers work really hard on "fetch" and totally ignore the release command and end up with dogs that "stick" on the bird. If you properly FF your dog he should willingly back away from the bird as soon as he feels you take the weight.
> Usually no command is, or should be, necessary.
> Another possiblity to consider is how you take delivery of the bird. I had a friend who was a very successful amature trainer, ruin one of the finest master hunters on the west coast by improperly receiving the bird. The dog was properly FF, in fact the problem would not have happened if she were not. The trainer would take the bird from the dog by grasping the tip of a wing, or the leg or bill and pull the bird from the dog's mouth. The last thing the dog would feel was the bird falling from her mouth because the handler did not have hold of the body of the bird. As she had been taught not to let that happen she would try to "catch" the bird again before it fell. The end result was a dog so "sticky" she could not get past the first series.
> ...


Great post Lynn...thank you!!

As for the squeaky toy comment....I 100% agree with you!! I wish I knew that before I gave them too him!


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## smokeshow (Apr 12, 2008)

Someone else suggested to use chicken wire or a piegon harness around the bird.....is that a good idea...or no?


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

smokeshow said:


> Someone else suggested to use chicken wire or a piegon harness around the bird.....is that a good idea...or no?


Here's an easy test: does he mouth birds in training, or only in tests?

Lisa


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## smokeshow (Apr 12, 2008)

Never been in a test yet....so far only in training.....


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## kiddcline (Nov 26, 2007)

I had two dogs that I thought had extremely hard-mouths. Turned out they were just really hungry. I'd feed them at night and train right before I fed them. I had finished FF with both dogs. I decided to feed them before and that solved the problem. I trained like that for a while with lots of praise and after a very short time they didn't need to be fed first. I actually got a compliment not to long ago about how gentle the dogs were.

An old trainer I know used to take the bird out of the mouth as soon as the dog would chomp on the bird and calmly say"easy" as he hit the dog over the face with the bird until he had nothing but a pigeon leg left in his hand and the dog had a bloody face. Not my way to do it but the it worked.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

2tall said:


> He clearly starts the chomping when the pressure is on. There has been a ton of it lately (pressure that is) working on all his line manners (or lack thereof) issues.



Pressure: What kind, how much, and how close is he when you apply it?

Lisa


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

What I find with the dogs/handlers I work with is that they bring a dog to me and ask me to fix X problem. The problem is most of the time X problem is related too or compounded by problems Y and Z. Y and Z often are created due to behavioral issues, mostly stemming from habits formed because of how the human interaction takes place. You have given us very little to go on other than implying that the dog has “some” FF but not “all.” I have said before that I really don’t like discussing FF questions on the internet because there is so much involved in reading the dog during this process and it is a critical aspect of training. This thread has some good info in it, most I would agree with some I could debate but frankly the best advice I can give you is to get with someone knowledgeable who can watch the dog, watch you and watch the entire scenario. Dogs get sticky for a variety of reasons and the solution could vary as well. I wish you well in working with your dog.

/Paul


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> the best advice I can give you is to get with someone knowledgeable who can watch the dog, watch you and watch the entire scenario


BINGO!

Give the man a cigar!

Lisa


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Lisa Van Loo said:


> Pressure: What kind, how much, and how close is he when you apply it?
> 
> Lisa


Lisa,
In working on creeping, I have corrected with the stick, the collar and a good shaking by the ruff. That escalated to barking when corrected. After trying several ways to fix that as suggested by pros and experienced AMs, I have finally got him quiet again by making him look at me before being released for the mark. But......he will still creep 12 feet out and have to be re-heeled. After being corrected, reheeled, or even taken off the line, his anxiety grows worse. When all is still and quiet and he is finally sent, he takes out all his frustration on the duck or dummy, makes no difference. He chomps all the way back with it. How hard and how bad depend on how much pressure was used to keep him steady. I have almost never had to use any kind of corrections when he was way out. He sits pretty darn good to the whistle even when he's moving like a freight train, and is really honest in the water. The only times he's ever thought about running the bank or exiting early, I was able to fix it with no collar, just a loud no and a cast. So......what can I do to improve the way I am using pressure to correct the line manners? I really believe the chomping will resolve when less force is needed. 

Paul, I hope you don't regret your suggestions that I keep asking! Seems like me and my wild one find a way to avoid every fix suggested:-(


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

2tall said:


> Lisa,
> In working on creeping, I have corrected with the stick, the collar and a good shaking by the ruff. That escalated to barking when corrected. After trying several ways to fix that as suggested by pros and experienced AMs, I have finally got him quiet again by making him look at me before being released for the mark. But......he will still creep 12 feet out and have to be re-heeled. After being corrected, reheeled, or even taken off the line, his anxiety grows worse. When all is still and quiet and he is finally sent, he takes out all his frustration on the duck or dummy, makes no difference. He chomps all the way back with it. How hard and how bad depend on how much pressure was used to keep him steady. I have almost never had to use any kind of corrections when he was way out. He sits pretty darn good to the whistle even when he's moving like a freight train, and is really honest in the water. The only times he's ever thought about running the bank or exiting early, I was able to fix it with no collar, just a loud no and a cast. So......what can I do to improve the way I am using pressure to correct the line manners? I really believe the chomping will resolve when less force is needed.
> 
> Paul, I hope you don't regret your suggestions that I keep asking! Seems like me and my wild one find a way to avoid every fix suggested:-(


Don't stop asking. We're not tired ...

/paul


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

2tall
If I was working with you you would need to get a new pair of pants because the rear had been chewed out of the pair you were wearing. If your dog is creeping 12 feet you are screwing up! The correction should have taken place 11 feet 11 inches ago.
It's no wonder your dog gets nervous as he gets closer to you. From your description your corrections are inconsistant, poorly timed, and the wrong tool is being used.
I can go on but I think it would be best if we had a little phone conversation.
PM me if you are interested.
Lynn


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## smokeshow (Apr 12, 2008)

What about me...can I call you.....:razz::razz:


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## Carlo Iacobucci (Oct 15, 2007)

Fetch - Hold! said:


> I'm having to read between the lines here but I noticed that both of you mentioned that your dog had held birds but you did not say the dog had retrieved live birds in training so I am assuming you did not throw clipwings or shackled birds for your dog before you stepped up to the line in a hunt test. Is this correct?


Your assumption is correct,however she did not chomp on them at the first trial.There is another trial on 25/26 and hopefully the dayly training with birds might make a difference.
CARLO.


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## Lisa Van Loo (Jan 7, 2003)

2tall said:


> I really believe the chomping will resolve when less force is needed.


Me, too.

Try changing it up from correcting for heel/here to correcting for sit. Go back to holding him physically online with a prong collar and a tab (along with his e-collar, if you use one. Trust me, they won't interfere with each other). Correct each time he makes a move to go, whether it is raising his rump, bouncing, or crouching down, with a straight-up correction in the prong colar, and a tap with the stick. Right now he is getting both physical and mental pressure (mental from having to stay, physical from being corrected for the break). By holding him online, you are removing the physical correction necessary for the creep/break.

Also, with a whiz-bang dog like this, slow down your timing. With physical control of him, you are more able to do this. Get him out of the "go as soon as the bird lands" mentality by slowing your rhythm down online. Call for each mark slower, and let heim look at each one longer before shifting to call for the next one. Have someone stand behind you and play judge, by calling your number or saying "dog", and wait a good three-count before sending. On delivery, have him sit and focus on the next mark. Make sure he is sitting and settled and totally focused before taking the bird or bumper. After you take the bird/bumper, do another three-count before sending.

All this will probably make him a bit more mouthy at first, but as he gets into the new rhythm, he should settle down somewhat ("should" being the operative word here, as I do not know your dog). 

Good luck, let us know how it goes!

Lisa


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