# Less expensive dog food



## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

I have always fed Eukanuba but at over $40 a bag unless I can find a super sale again I am considering alternatives. Has anyone tried the Kirkland brands? They are much cheaper. I've read on this forum that people like Excell, I believe that one is Sam's Club. Any suggestions? I'm down to my last bag of Euk.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

You know it really depends on your dog. I have been on a search for the right food for a while now. I was feeding Pro Plan, but they killed me with the price increases and reducing weight at the same time, plus the shreds issue. I tried cheaper food, but my dog always got loose stools. The new tractor supply food is very interesting, I may give it a try, but for now I am feeding Eukanuba. Yes it is high, but my dog does good on it and they aren't cutting the weight on the bags. Give me an honest price increase if you want but don't pee on my leg.

You might just look at this food. I think I'm going to try a bag and see what happens.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/pet-ca...ormula-for-adult-dogs-dog-food-35-lb--5149621


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

chesaka said:


> I have always fed Eukanuba but at over $40 a bag unless I can find a super sale again I am considering alternatives. Has anyone tried the Kirkland brands?


Tried it but the resulting gas pealed the paint in the house. Also wasn't very happy about the coats. 

Went back to pro plan (still hate the shreds) but gas level is much less and coats are great. 

T. Mac


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

i fed pro plan and then i changed to diamond naturals extreme athlete it is 32protein and 25 fat and my dogs had loose stools at first for aout 3 weeks but after that the loose stools stopped and my dog has never done better and that food is like 30 dollars for a 40 pound bag


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## huntinlabs (Aug 4, 2009)

oh and there coats are amazing and the shedding about stopped to


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I'm going to try this: http://www.nativedogfood.com/


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## Heelsit (Nov 7, 2007)

I switched my 4 labs from Eukanuba to Tractor Supply Retriever High Protein and have seen no adverse effects. Stools are mostly the same, coats the same, no change in gas. Price of food about 40% that of Eukanuba: one 40-lb bag of Eukanuba is $45; one 50-lb bag of Retriever $22.
I am now considering supplementing Glucosamine, have not settled on which method.


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## Lucky Number Seven (Feb 22, 2009)

HarryWilliams said:


> I'm going to try this: http://www.nativedogfood.com/



I used Native for over a year and loved it until it went up in price. I now feed Diamond Naturals ($29/bag) and my 2 1/2 ylm is doing well on it. My buddies dogs did not do well on the Naturals, they also peeled the paint off the walls.


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## Dave_Quindt (Oct 22, 2003)

If you join Euk's breeders club program you get a free bag for every 6 bags you buy. Makes feeding Euk a bit easier.

http://www.breedsmartpartners.com/bronline/en_US/jsp/BO_Page.jsp?pageID=DHA

FYI,
Dave


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

For the off season I'm feeding Kirkland chicken & Rice $27.00/ 40 pound bag CDN, and not bad food!


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

I'm on my third bag of Enhance (Hunters Edge). I pay $28.00 for 50lbs. 

I'm very happy with it so far.


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## drakedogwaterfowl (Mar 27, 2009)

I'll second that on the Enhance. I have a friend who feeds the Hunter's Edge, I feed the professional athlete and the 22-12 adult formula. Both are priced right at $30 and $26 respectively for 50lb bags.


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## jollycurl (Mar 4, 2008)

I have switched my 2 year old to Kirkland Adult lamb and rice and my oldsters (12 and 8) to Weight Maintenance (20% potein vs. 27% in the Mature stuff). All three are doing very well. Output is good and coats are great.


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## kodyb (Jun 30, 2008)

HarryWilliams said:


> I'm going to try this: http://www.nativedogfood.com/


I like what I have heard and seen about Native. Im going to switch over and give it a try.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

I always find this interesting. Dog food is CHEAP in the big picture. I have 5 dogs and they eat 35lbs/week. 35 lbs cost me $40. $40/5 = $8 a week per dog, or just over a dollar a day. If you can switch to BETTER food for cheaper it is one thing, but if you can't afford a $1.10 a day for a dog to feed it............


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## jldillen (Apr 30, 2009)

I am feeding Costco Brand (Knock off of Purina HiPro) Dogs are doing great. Solid stool, great coats, no gas and keeping lots of weight on. 50lb approx $22.00 works well for us give it a shot.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

Thank you for those responding with helpful replies.
Last night, I compared ingredients to Euk. Native looks good, perhaps better. And there is someone up here in Alaska who sells it. Alaska Mill and Feed has a special on Euk performance formula, $32 a bag if you buy 24 bags. Anyone want to go in on that one? Kodi? New deals might come out on Friday, too. Now, I'm going to look into Enhance. I can't find a Diamond dealer up here, however. Still looking...


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## davidvanryn (Jan 24, 2010)

You should try enhance pro athlete awsome food I hear and I am going to switch this week, if you go to there web site enhance dog food you can see the prouducts.


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## Alain (Dec 9, 2005)

I have tried Kirkland for 5 months on 3 of my dogs.
I do not recommand this food.
Now Royal Canin (Maxi), extremely happy.

Alain


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## SHANNON (May 30, 2008)

Just switched to the new Tractor Supply brand! Name of it is 4life. Looks great on paper and the dogs are doing great on it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The new Tractor Supply brand is made by Diamond, with almost identical ingredients to Diamond Naturals...the only real difference is a smaller bag (35# for the 4Life, 40# for Diamond Naturals). Calories per cup are almost identical except for the performance version, where the 4Life is almost 100 cal per cup less than Diamond. Price per bag is the same. So, with the 4Life, you're getting the same feed for the same price, just a smaller bag.


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## slammer (Oct 11, 2009)

Either the Sams Club or Costco brands were produced by Purina under the Exceed tag I believe but I understand they switched mills and many are reporting issues with soft stool.


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

I have fed Exceed for 4 years--same as ProPlan--and have not found any problems in my dogs' performances since Sams apparently changed mfgrs. from Purina to ???(Doanes?). Compared old and new labels, found no differences.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

We recently switched to Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete at $28.00 40lbs. There is no breeder program but the price is right. The dogs all put on weight and we reduced the amount of food we were feeding to each dog. We are happy with their appearance.


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## jason318 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok here's the deal, With my previous lab I fed Pro Plan. Worked great. I was buying it from a guy that ran a kennel, and made special trips 2+ hr drive. However now he has moved off, and With my work and daily duties I can't really travel very far to get "special" food. I am I guess what you say " In the sticks" seems like I am an hour from any feed place. Is there any food at a Walmart the could be recomended? I am 30 minutes from the nearest Walmart. Just curious. I had my wife pick me up a bag to try of Beniful.


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## Ken Parrott (Feb 5, 2005)

Count me down as a big fan of Diamond Naturals!


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

I switched from PP to Diamond Naturals extreme athlete.....runny stools ,mega gas.I the went to the DN chicken and rice adult. Much better stools....still mega gas.We can smell the poots from three rooms away ! We try to keep the two field trial dogs out of the skeeters at night because of the heartworm threat around here.The gas is so bad the dog even leaves the room !


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## Paco (Feb 14, 2007)

The problems in the not too distant past with some companies,can usually be traced the quality control,or lack of....
I go with Enhanced(ARKAT),Nutri-Source,and Eagle pack.
With Enhanced 30/22 being a good bang for the buck. Just think their LB Puppy is too high in Protein,other wise it would be all Enhanced for me.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

jason318 said:


> Ok here's the deal, With my previous lab I fed Pro Plan. Worked great. I was buying it from a guy that ran a kennel, and made special trips 2+ hr drive. However now he has moved off, and With my work and daily duties I can't really travel very far to get "special" food. I am I guess what you say " In the sticks" seems like I am an hour from any feed place. Is there any food at a Walmart the could be recomended? I am 30 minutes from the nearest Walmart. Just curious. I had my wife pick me up a bag to try of Beniful.


I could be wrong but I am not so sure that Purina One Chicken and Rice, or even Iams for that matter doesn't come close in quality to Pro Plan. I feed Purina One Chicken and Rice sometimes. I know a lot of people feed Iams Large Breed Puppy Food. They are both good in my opinion.

My Walmarts never seem to have the food in the big bags which eliminates any cost savings.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

I have two 11y/o labs that are kenneled outside of the house who do well on Kirkland Senior. I just switched for a 2nd attempt to kirkland chicken with my 2 y/o that stays in the house, and the gas has been horrible. Even 3 weeks out he still has a ton of nasty gas. So I'll be switchin back to PP performance.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

I have been feeding Kirkland Lamb and Rice for over 10 years now.I believe it is made by Diamond for Costco.I have had very good results with stool,great coats, and stamina in hunting and training.With my current BLF who will be 8 and is a Maxx Gr grand daughter on both sides ( high powered to say the least) no gas either.However with my Cosmo daughter (No longer with us.Been gone a couple of years now.She lived until 13) anything would give her gas that could clear a room in no time.I think she was related to /Paul
I highly recommend it.
Jeff Gruber


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

This information has been great. The dealer says there are several outlets in Alaska that sell Diamond pet foods. Enhance I can't find anywhere. Native is about what I'd pay for Euk. It sounds like it would be worth giving Kirkland a try. In the meantime, I think I found a good buy on Eukanuba that will begin Friday. If anyone in the Anchorage area of Alaska wants info on that PM me and I would be happy to provide. I was told the 46# bags of large breed adult will sell for $29.99 at Alaska Mill and Feed. Good prices also on performance formula for sporting dogs.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

wayne anderson said:


> I have fed Exceed for 4 years--same as ProPlan--and have not found any problems in my dogs' performances since Sams apparently changed mfgrs. from Purina to ???(Doanes?). Compared old and new labels, found no differences.


Fwiw, we fed some Exceed earlier this year, and it is not the same formula as Pro Plan, which doesn't include beet pulp. Bag said compare to Euk, which does, like Exceed, include beet pulp. 

Near as I could tell, beet pulp has been the common difference between formulas that gave most of my dogs serious gas and loose stools and those that haven't. Your mileage may differ...


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## theeaterofshades (May 19, 2008)

Sam's club changed manufacturers in the past year for Exceed. It used to be re-badged Pro-plan as when I inquired about it (for my dad's lab), the number given to me by Sam's was Purina. Apparently, Purina stoopped making foods for others (Like Sam's) thus they needed to get a new manufacturer for their food (maybe it is Iams/Eukanuba now?)

-Matt


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I've been feeding Exceed Chicken and Rice for a lot of years. Except for puppy food for the first 6 months, neither of my two older dogs have ever been on anything else for any length of time. No gas unless they get into garbage or something. They look and feel good. I supplement with glucosomine/chondroitin and fish oil.


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## seandcso75 (May 12, 2009)

I have tried Native for both my puppy and my hunting dog. They both had loose stool and their coats became very coarse. I then switched back to Pro Plan and have had no problems. The problem I am having with Pro Plan is this: I have heard that the bags will now come in 34 lbs instead of 37.5 lbs and the price will stay at $40/bag. I have checked into Enhance Professional Athlete. I like the price ($29.99/bag for 50 lbs) but the only thing I don't like is all the fillers they use. Pro Plan also uses real chicken meat while the Enhance uses Chicken by-product meal. The dealer says that by-product meal includes feathers, beaks, and the feet. I am having a hard time deciding if I want to leave Pro Plan (due to decreasing the bag size) and saving $10/bag and gaining 15 lbs of food, but sacrificing the quality of the feed my dogs eat.


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

huntinlabs said:


> i fed pro plan and then i changed to diamond naturals extreme athlete it is 32protein and 25 fat and my dogs had loose stools at first for aout 3 weeks but after that the loose stools stopped and my dog has never done better and that food is like 30 dollars for a 40 pound bag


This thread caused me to go to my local Diamond dealer and do some comparative shopping. Petco sells PPP Performance for $44.99/37 lb. bag.
Pet Barn sells Diamond Extreme Athlete for $34.99/40 lb. bag. That looked pretty cut and dried until I figured in Petco's discounts and free bag program.
Diamond costs 0.87/pound while PPP purchased at Petco works out to 0.88/pound. Guess I'll stick with Purina.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I'm feeding the Diamond Naturals now and my dog is doing great on it. We are just hunting and not doing any heavy duty training so I'm not feeding the Extreme Athlete right now. Once we go back to training I'll switch back. I also have an 8 month old pup and am getting ready to put him on the Extreme Athelete. When I look at the cost difference I'm basically feeding a dog and half for the same price as one dog on the Euk.


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## duckslayer (Jul 17, 2008)

Try the 50# bag of Blackgold 24-20 High Energy Blend. The price is around $26.00. My dogs really love it.

24/20 High Energy is recommended for adult dogs with extreme activity levels, for dogs in competition, for finicky eaters, for dogs being worked in extreme weather conditions or for show dogs that go off feed when traveling. Daily use without high daily activity is not recommended. With Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids and added Vitamin C Energy Enhancer plus Chondroitin and Glucosamine.

* Metabolized Energy 2000 kcal/lb.
* Digestibility 92%
* Omega 3 & 6 Fatty Acids
* Added Vitamin C Energy Enhancer


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## rocky hamman (Feb 4, 2010)

I have read a lot about dog foods and talked to my vet also. There are many good dog foods on the market. I for one do not worry to much about the price, my dogs are too valuable to me. If you are worried about what your dogs getting try Clovite added to their food. You will be amazed at what it will do for your dogs coat and their overall appearance. I do not feed it year around anymore because of the great foods available. Try it during hunting season your dog will thank you. Ask your vet about it he may have different ideas about Clovite.


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## cwirvin (Nov 20, 2008)

One of my hunting buddies feeds Sportmix 26/18. He says his dogs do good on it. I think he said it was like 25$ for 50lb bag. Maybe someone on here that has fed it can comment on it.


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

duckslayer said:


> Try the 50# bag of Blackgold 24-20 High Energy Blend. The price is around $26.00. My dogs really love it.




I was feeding this food for a while until they went to the 40# bag and went up on the price. Have they went back to the 50# bags?


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

mlp said:


> I was feeding this food for a while until they went to the 40# bag and went up on the price. Have they went back to the 50# bags?


If you are buying at a grocery store or regular retail outlet you will usually only get 40lb bags. Go to the website and type in your zip and look for a local dealer. Prices are usually up to 4 bucks or more per bag cheaper than the store and they have the 50 lb bags.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

If you are looking to feed a cheaper food, I would look for one of these.
Black gold or Hi-standard in a 24/20,26/18 or 30/20 or use the Enhance30/22or hunters edge blend. Out of the hundreds of dogs we see every year the ones fed on these foods seem to have the best coats and overall health without messy stools, etc. $25 to 30 per bag for any of them. Im going back to Euk to see how my girl does on it while pregnant for the time being.


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## davidvanryn (Jan 24, 2010)

I used to be on pro plan performance and the bag lbs changed so I have just switched to enhance 30/22 performance athlete, AWsome food there energy level is way up and there stools are next to nothing and hard. cost is very good 35 dollars for 40 lbs, and my female is about 65-70lbs and i feed her 3 cups a day and she looks great.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

Price dictakes quality. Many studies are now indicating that you should regularly change dog foods over the life of your dog. Think about it - do you eat the same thing day after day? Moreover, can you be certain your dog is getting the necessary nutritional value from that one food? There is a great, great feature artile entitled "A Rising Tide: Enjoy the availability of better dog foods, but beware of the posers" published in the February 2010 issue of The Whole Dog Journal (www.whole-dog-journal.com). This in-depth article provides a breakdown of what to look for in a QUALITY dog food and also provides a wonderful representative of the top foods on the market today. 
My advice: Don't look at the cost. Instead, concentrate on the ingredients. Far too long, we have been feeding our animals poor quality foods - and it has played itself out by reviewing the history of health problems associated to poor diets. Listen - we spending lots and lots of money in our dog, our training and everything else associated with getting our competitive animals to the highest level possible. And to think skimping on the cost of their food makes sense???? These days you pay for what you get.


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## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

What do you all recommend to feed your puppy?


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

There are a number of high quality - emphasis in the word "high" quality dogs foods available. For example: check out the Natura Pet Products line up - www.naturapet.com.


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

I feed Diamond dog food and my dogs do great on it. Its really good quality and it only cost me about $30 for a bag. I have never tried the kirkland dog food but I have been told by a mastiff breeder that its actually really good. Kinda suprised me.


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## Aristillus (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi all, I'm a lurker here, mom to a 10 week old Lab puppy who is not going to be a hunter. But the advice is great and I enjoy reading and learning. Anyhoo, feeding I do know something about. You have to read the ingredients and know what they mean. For instance, "chicken by-products" is not the same as "chicken meal!" The Kirkland brand is actually pretty good and my now-gone old Lab did well on it. It's made by Diamond but has no wheat or corn. This grade calculator is on the web lots of places, posting it here just FYI. Anne

How to grade your dog's food:
Start with a grade of 100:

1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points

2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source,subtract 5 points

5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer's rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points

6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3points

9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 morepoints

10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil,subtract 2 points

11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

Extra Credit:

1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points

2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or
nutritionist, add 5 points

3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

8 ) If the food contains barley, add 2 points

9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than
the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point

13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point

94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D

69 = F


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## Aristillus (Jan 28, 2010)

Check out http://www.petfooddirect.com/ I've ordered from them many times and with the discounts they often offer it costs only a couple dollars more than buying local for me. I'm in Maryland and they ship from Pennsylvania, I think, so if you're on the left coast shipping might be prohibitive. But...it is a viable option with far greater variety than I could get even here in a big city. Anne



jason318 said:


> Ok here's the deal, With my previous lab I fed Pro Plan. Worked great. I was buying it from a guy that ran a kennel, and made special trips 2+ hr drive. However now he has moved off, and With my work and daily duties I can't really travel very far to get "special" food. I am I guess what you say " In the sticks" seems like I am an hour from any feed place. Is there any food at a Walmart the could be recomended? I am 30 minutes from the nearest Walmart. Just curious. I had my wife pick me up a bag to try of Beniful.


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

BoilerMan1812 said:


> What do you all recommend to feed your puppy?


I like pro plan large breed puppy.


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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

Aristillus said:


> Hi all, I'm a lurker here, mom to a 10 week old Lab puppy who is not going to be a hunter. But the advice is great and I enjoy reading and learning. Anyhoo, feeding I do know something about. You have to read the ingredients and know what they mean. For instance, "chicken by-products" is not the same as "chicken meal!" The Kirkland brand is actually pretty good and my now-gone old Lab did well on it. It's made by Diamond but has no wheat or corn. This grade calculator is on the web lots of places, posting it here just FYI. Anne
> 
> How to grade your dog's food:
> Start with a grade of 100:
> ...



Actually..

14) Beef and other red meats are the best protien source for dogs. They have firmer muscles, better energy, better coats.. I can tell a chicken fed dog from a meat fed dog just by looking -the bodies of the chicken eaters are somewhat softer and the coats, even good ones are not quite the same.
See a dog that eats a good Meat and Corn based food (not Pedigree!), and there is no comparison to the condition of the dog. You'll notice most of the High Protien dogs foods are meat based. (Manufacturers like to use chicken and rice formulas because it is cheaper to make!)

Extra Credit 6) Vegetables other than corn up the fiber level -more fiber means more stool volume.. More than 3% fiber in a dog food and you'll get the runs on any dog that requires more than 4 cups of food a day. Corn is better carbohydrate than vegetables, potatoes and rice- why? It has more nutritional value and actually adds a little protien. Rice (especially white) has virtually no nutrional value what so ever.

Extra Credit 8) Barley is not digestable by dogs. Corn and even wheat (though expect itchy skin with wheat) is more digestable and is a better carbohydrate energy source. Barley is more of a filler and only increases the fiber level of the food. Try feeding a food with barley vs corn.. The barley food makes WAY more stool.

Extra Credit 9) Flaxseed. I look for foods WITHOUT flaxseed because it is a contraceptive.. Fine if you have neutered and spayed animals, but if you plan on breeding ever, your chances of a miss is higher with the sire and dam eating a food with flaxseed. 

..P.S. If the Whole Dog Journal says it, it's probably bogus. (I stopped subscribing to them YEARS ago. They are the Tin Foil Hat Brigade!)


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

BirdNMouth said:


> Actually..
> 
> Extra Credit 9) Flaxseed. I look for foods WITHOUT flaxseed because it is a contraceptive.. Fine if you have neutered and spayed animals, but if you plan on breeding ever, your chances of a miss is higher with the sire and dam eating a food with flaxseed.


I have not heard of this, do you have any info? Quite a few dog foods contain flaxseed and I have not heard of any reproductive issues associated with it.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Creek Retrievers said:


> I have not heard of this, do you have any info? Quite a few dog foods contain flaxseed and I have not heard of any reproductive issues associated with it.



I'd want to see cites on this as well, since all my information points to flaxseed being a reproductive and hormonal enhancer, not at all contraceptive in nature.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Extra Credit 9) Flaxseed. I look for foods WITHOUT flaxseed because it is a contraceptive.. Fine if you have neutered and spayed animals, but if you plan on breeding ever, your chances of a miss is higher with the sire and dam eating a food with flaxseed.


When I went to Dr Schultz at Okemos, MI for a TCI, Dr Scultz, who has been doing reproduction @30 years made the statement when we were viewing the sperm count about not to give stud dogs a flax supplement because it has estrogen properties, but to give Vitamin E. I can find literature on the estrogenic properties but nothing specifically on dog reproduction. Anyway, I stopped supplementing with flax. Yes, most good foods have it. 

None of the foods I feed have flax, but when I went through a big store, almost all of the premium foods like the type Whole Dog would like, had it.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I had a disastrous breeding--puppies were weak and 6 out of 8 died. I talked to some people more or less in the repro business. They brought up the flaxseed issue. Apparently flaxseed contains phytoestrogens, which, in high doses in rats, interfere with production of progesterone, the hormone that maintains pregnancy. As it happens, this was the first time I had fed my pregnant bitch on Diamond, which contains flaxseed, instead of Eukanuba puppy. One episode proves nothing--but the issue did come up, and I read the research paper describing the effect in rats.

Amy Dahl


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

I think many of you are missing the real point about cost.

Cost per bag does not always equate to price per day.

What's cheaper --- Feeding 6 cups of a cheap food @ $0.50 per cup or 4 cups of a premium food at $0.75 per cup ?

Hmmmmm -- same cost per day. Then consider the difference in nutrition and difference in the amount of poop.

Which one is best ?



.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks, Amy and Nancy. So it works sort of like soy in people?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> Thanks, Amy and Nancy. So it works sort of like soy in people?


Yes, if you google it flax may be useful instead of HRT and other female problems.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I feed Canidae, which has flax but it's not been a problem. The one time I had a miss (singleton), however, I had been supplementing w/ a mix that I make up, which contained extra flaxseed. I've since stopped using that on girls once bred and haven't had any problems at all. 

I was told/read that flax can interfere w/ implantation even in people, I believe... don't quote me but I thought I found an article by Googling it.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Doc E said:


> I think many of you are missing the real point about cost.
> 
> Cost per bag does not always equate to price per day.
> 
> ...


 
That was my first thought too. I feed 2-2.5 C of food a day now per dog (and that equates to less poop too!). Also, I was taught that a high quality food likely equates to better health, and hence, lower vet costs.....  The food part of my dog expenses is a small fraction.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

I think the point of flaxseed or flax oil is Omega-3, or Omega-3 to Omega-6 ratio. I'm pretty sure it's just a low-cost alternative to fish oil. The oils in flaxseed have to be processed in the body to make the essential Omega-3s and Omega-6s we and the dogs need; the ones in fish oil are ready to use.

It's not clear to me whether or not the dogs can convert the oils in flaxseed, or not. If the latter, it's just a gimmick to enable the manufacturer to post Omega-3 and Omega-6 in the analysis. I'm inclined to believe all dog food labels involve hype. I supplement with fish oil.

Amy Dahl


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Omega 3 Fatty Acids 101

Fatty acids are given their "number" from where in the molecular chain of Carbons a "double bond" occurs. If the double bond is after the 3rd Carbon it's Omega-3 if it's after the 6th Carbon, it's Omega-6 etc.

The primary two O-3 fatty acids are EPA & DHA, which are most commonly obtained from cold water ocean fish.

The O-3 in Flax Seed Oil is ALA. Some ALA is utilized as ALA but a small portion (10% - 15%) is converted into EPA (none is converted into DHA).

A fairly recent study done on HUMAN MALES (no study on dogs or human females) has shown that over 300 mg of Flax Seed Oil per day markedly increases the rate of a particularly nasty type of prostate cancer. 

In appropriate amounts, Flax Seed Oil is an important nutrient ......... But to much is not a good thing (at least in human male prostate glands)---(and I'm guessing the same MIGHT be true for dogs --- and probably female human / dog uteruses, because the uterus is analagous to the prostate). 

It's important to note that the double bond is a weak link and it's "hungry" -- it readily picks up Oxygen. When a fatty acid oxidizes (peroxidizes) it becomes rancid. IMO, if you supplement with Omega-3's you must protect that double bond from oxidation. This is most easily accomplished by having an adequate amount of Vitamin E at the same time as the Omega-3.

Thus, Fish Oil is a super good supplement that does a lot of good things, but if it is peroxidized, it does as much harm as good.


.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

Thanks for the information. I bred my bitch Penny last year and she had problems maintaining her progesterone levels for the last three weeks of her pregnancy. Penny had a litter of 13 pups. During the beginning of her pregnancy, I had her on Eagle Pack which contains flaxseed. I ended up switching her to Innova Evo because she would not eat anything once she hit 30 days. Innova Evo does not contain flaxseed. I do not add supplements to the dog food, but Penny was getting a steady diet of cooked venison and canned veggie soup as she would not eat much. Penny's level for progesterone dropped lower than 7 at one point and that is when progesterone shots began. The only symptoms I saw with Penny is that she was leaking large puddles of clear fluid. The reproductive vet still does not know the cause, but the size of the litter might have been it. Twelve out of thirteen pups survived.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

If anybody wants to see the study concerning Flax Seed Oil and Prostate Cancer, just post and say so and I'll put it up.



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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> This is most easily accomplished by having an adequate amount of Vitamin E at the same time as the Omega-3.


What is the best E additive? Most dog foods contain "mixed tocopherols".
Are they natural or synthetic when itis termed mixed tocopherols?


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> What is the best E additive? Most dog foods contain "mixed tocopherols".
> Are they natural or synthetic when itis termed mixed tocopherols?


The amount of Vit E in dog foods and SOME Fish Oils is only enough to protect the fats from becoming rancid in the container (bag - pill - etc) There is not enough to protect these oils from becoming rancid once they are in the animal.

Vit E activity is only based on the amount of ALPHA tocopherol -- although the other tocopherols (beta, gamma & delta) are beneficial. So "mixed tocopherols" means it's a blend of all of them -- but due to old archaic rules, only the Alpha is listed as the active component.

You need to read the Ingredients list carefully. If it says d-alpha, it is from a natural source......... If it says d-l alpha, it is synthetic. When it comes to Vit E, you need to "get the L out".........hee hee

Currently the thought is that (once in the animal), you need 100 iu of Vit E to protect each 1000 mg (ish) of EPA & DHA. 
So, if your Fish Oil provides say, 600 mg EPA and 300 mg DHA, you need to have 100 iu Vit E available at the same time.



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## BirdNMouth (Sep 16, 2008)

Doc E said:


> I think many of you are missing the real point about cost.
> 
> Cost per bag does not always equate to price per day.
> 
> ...


Doc E,
I have had and do have dogs that on the SAME food, one dog will require 6 cups of food and the other 3 cups. I used to, in the olden days, feed stuff like Solid Gold, Innova etc. The dogs that ate 6 cups of food on Purina Hi Pro ate 8 or more cups of Solid Gold, Innova etc. If you have show dogs, or show/field cross lines, you will usually have dogs that are more effecient at keeping weight. Field line Labs and Goldens, sometimes burn through calories a lot faster even when not working and if you ever raise a litter you will have a bitch that eats more than 4 cups a day guaranteed (unless you let her get skinny and starved with her ribs hanging out). When it comes to how much food a dog requires, it has to do with the Protien/Fat levels NOT the price of the food. Higher Protien and Fat is higher calories per cup.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

Doc please post the prostate/ flax seed study. Another mistake I use to make and a lot of people still do, is to keep the food tightly closed in it's original bag. The bag it comes in is made to store the food. Dumping it in a plastic container causes the Vit. E to breakdown and be come rancid.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

torg said:


> Doc please post the prostate/ flax seed study. Another mistake I use to make and a lot of people still do, is to keep the food tightly closed in it's original bag. The bag it comes in is made to store the food. Dumping it in a plastic container causes the Vit. E to breakdown and be come rancid.


Really? is it something in the plastic. I always though having it in an air tight container was better and kept it fresher longer. Which will usually be in plastic.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

torg said:


> Doc please post the prostate/ flax seed study. Another mistake I use to make and a lot of people still do, is to keep the food tightly closed in it's original bag. The bag it comes in is made to store the food. Dumping it in a plastic container causes the Vit. E to breakdown and be come rancid.


It has nothing to do with plastic. It's the Oxygen that gets into the container. 
It's the Oxygen that causes the Fats to become rancid.
The more Oxygen that gets into the container, the more Vit E is used in it's fight against free radicals (rancidity). When the Vit E has been all used up, the fats are no longer protected.

I'll post the Prostate study in a little bit -- the website is down right now.



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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Doc E said:


> It has nothing to do with plastic. It's the Oxygen that gets into the container.
> It's the Oxygen that causes the Fats to become rancid.
> The more Oxygen that gets into the container, the more Vit E is used in it's fight against free radicals (rancidity). When the Vit E has been all used up, the fats are no longer protected.
> 
> ...


That makes sense but then why would storing it in the bag not make it go rancid as well as it would be almost impossible to seal and would be exposed to air as well?


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## theeaterofshades (May 19, 2008)

Micha, 

That is my thought as well. What about in the bags inside one of the plastic bins with the rubber seals? I have one of these that I will start using. I store the food in the basement, so there is little light exposure. And I plan on keeping it in the bag too, so I am guessing this will be a best of both worlds situation. But I have been wrong before! Does anyone have any feelings one way or another?


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

MicahD said:


> That makes sense but then why would storing it in the bag not make it go rancid as well as it would be almost impossible to seal and would be exposed to air as well?


I don't have a clue.
Also, I can't find any studies that say anything about the plastic/rancidity stuff, so maybe (just maybe) it's just an urban legend.



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## Matt Gasaway (May 22, 2009)

I've fed Native, Exceed, Diamond, and Pro Plan.....My 13 week old YLM is on Pro Plan Puppy Large Breed and my 2 year old BLM is on Native Level 3. So far I like Pro Plan the best...I'm going to start my 2 year old back on Pro Plan Performance once he gets low on his Native...What I've found with my dogs and the food....

Native Level 3 - My dog liked the food, good solid stools, energy level was where it needed to be during the season BUT didn't like the way his coat looked and the amount of shedding.

Diamond Natural Extreme Athlete - LOOSE stool. Fed it for over a month and it never tightened up...Didn't care for it

Exceed - Good food. Dog did well on it. Not sure why I even changed haha but I did

Pro Plan - My 13 week old YLM does great on the Large Breed Puppy (granted I could probably feed him McDonalds twice a day and hed still be just as energetic). My 2 year BLM did great on the Performance. Good stools, great coat, and great energy level...I plan on putting him back on it once his Native gets low

I am not a vet by any means BUT to me the Pro Plan is worth the money to me...PLUS generally I have to feed less so the price kind of even itself out


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

torg said:


> Doc please post the prostate/ flax seed study.


Here it is -- I'll also put it up as a separate thread in case some folks won't go through this entire thread just to see it.


Omega-3 PUFA: Good or bad for prostate cancer?
Prostaglandins, Leukotrienes and Essential Fatty Acids
September-November 2008;79(3-5):97-9
Ingeborg A. Brouwer
FROM ABSTRACT:
The objective of this meta-analysis was to estimate quantitatively the associations
between intake or status of omega-3 polyunsaturated (omega-3 PUFA) fatty acids
and occurrence of prostate cancer in observational studies in humans.
Methods
We combined risk estimates across studies using random-effects models.
Results
The combined estimate showed an increased risk of prostate cancer in men with a
high intake or blood level of alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) (36% increased risk).
The association is stronger in the case-control studies (84% increased risk) than in
the prospective studies (10% increased risk).
Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) were not significantly
associated with prostate cancer.
Discussion
The association between high intake of ALA and prostate cancer is of concern and
needs further study.
THIS AUTHOR ALSO NOTES:
“Prostate cancer is the second most common cancer in men in the World.”
This author reviewed the MEDLINE literature to determine the effect of
different omega-fatty acids on the incidence of prostate cancer. Thirteen
observational studies were found (7 were prospective studies and 6 were casecontrol
studies).
“The combined estimate of all observational studies showed an increased risk
of prostate cancer in men with a high intake or blood level of ALA” by 36%.
The association between ALA intake and prostate cancer was stronger in the
case-control studies (84% increased risk) than in the prospective studies (10%
increased risk).


The author found 8 observational studies on EPA intake or blood
concentrations and prostate cancer: 5 studies were prospective and 3 were casecontrol
studies.
Combined, EPA reduced the risk of prostate cancer by 10%.
The author found 7 observational studies on DHA intake or blood
concentration and prostate cancer: 4 of these were prospective studies and 3 were
case-control studies.
Combined, DHA reduced the risk of prostate cancer by 9%.
DISCUSSION
This meta-analysis shows a combined increased risk for prostate cancer of
36% for men with a relatively high intake of ALA.
“In conclusion, intake or status of the very long-chain omega-3 fatty acids
EPA and DHA do not seem to be associated with risk of prostate cancer.”
“Association between high intake of ALA and prostate cancer is of concern and
needs further study.”



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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

There is a huge differance from the human digestive track and dog's. Do you know of any studies that show a negative impact on dogs from Flax?


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

Doc E said:


> I don't have a clue.
> Also, I can't find any studies that say anything about the plastic/rancidity stuff, so maybe (just maybe) it's just an urban legend.
> 
> 
> ...


This was the information given to us at a Royal Canin seminar. That the plastic absorbs enough of the fat sprayed on the food to cause a thin layer of rancid fat on the plastic. This rancid oil film then breaks down the Vitamin E. They stated the bags interior are made to have the food stored in them and the food should be left in the bags not dumped into a plastic container. I have no idea about metal. I would not think metal is as absorbent, they only mentioned plastic. Food can be left in the bag and placed in a plastic container without problems.


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## NBHunter (Apr 24, 2009)

duckslayer said:


> Try the 50# bag of Blackgold 24-20 High Energy Blend. The price is around $26.00. My dogs really love it.


I used Blackgold Red bag and it tuned my dogs teeth brown in less than a year. He did really well in just about every way, but man his teeth were horrible. Switched to Eukanuba and his teeth are pearly white again.


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## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

Has anybody tried Diamond Naturals Large Breed Puppy formula? It seems to be a little cheaper compared to similar products. Thanks in advance.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/pet-ca...lamb-amp-rice-formula-dog-food-40-lb--2800139


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## theeaterofshades (May 19, 2008)

BoilerMan1812 said:


> Has anybody tried Diamond Naturals Large Breed Puppy formula? It seems to be a little cheaper compared to similar products. Thanks in advance.
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/pet-ca...lamb-amp-rice-formula-dog-food-40-lb--2800139


Yes. In a way... My pup developed some problems with diarrhea on PP Selects puppy (Not to mention that no one carries or can get the large bags in my area) that went away when we combined the food with Chix and rice. When we slowly transitioned him back, he developed the issues again. So I slowly built up to 1/2 of the PP Selects and 1/2 4Health puppy which Diamond manufactures. 

I contacted them to check on the differences as the nutrition and ingreedient lists match up between Diamond Naturals LB Puppy and 4Health puppy. Diamond said the following:
Thank you for your inquiries. Actually, the two formulas very similar, however, the 4health formula contains more rice and potatoes and less barley and oatmeal. 

When the intro price for 4health ends, I prob will change to Diamonds Natural LB Puppy as it will be less expensive and has a bigger bag size (40lbs vs 35lbs for 4Health)


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## Ken Parrott (Feb 5, 2005)

BoilerMan1812 said:


> Has anybody tried Diamond Naturals Large Breed Puppy formula? It seems to be a little cheaper compared to similar products. Thanks in advance.
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/pet-ca...lamb-amp-rice-formula-dog-food-40-lb--2800139


It's all I use. Have a 7 mos. old pup that has been on it since we got her and when we have a litter our pups get it. Couldn't be happier.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

The Kirkland foods are manufactured by Diamond for Costco, and are the same formula as their Naturals line.

We tried the Kirkland food for three months and the dogs never got over the gas. They live in the house, so we switched foods. :lol:


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I just raised a litter on Diamond Naturals Puppy food, and was very pleased with it. Nice coats, good stools, and pups did great.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

I switched an adult dog off of PP lamb and rice shreds to Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice with good results. Her stools were loose on the shreds and all is good on Diamond. It is less expensive to boot. My other dogs on on PP Performance still.


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## Michael Pearrow (Oct 20, 2009)

Just get you some Enhance 30-22 Professional Athlete and your dog will love you for it . I's 25 to 27 bucks a back and has all your key ingredients .


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Michael Pearrow said:


> Just get you some Enhance 30-22 Professional Athlete and your dog will love you for it . I's 25 to 27 bucks a back and has all your key ingredients .


I would try it but can't get it near here.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Sabireley said:


> I would try it but can't get it near here.


Distribution is the biggest issue facing the new owners of Arkat. :-x

Great food at a great price. Luckily I've found a store that will order it for me.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

laker said:


> Great food at a great price. Luckily I've found a store that will order it for me.


Watch out! We had that too, the local feed store would order it for us. BUT soon they realized they had us over a barrel and began raising the prices a buck a bag every month we ordered! :-x


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## theeaterofshades (May 19, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> Same here, I use the Enhance 30/22 for nursing dams/weaning pups and it started out at $28 at the local mill, the only one in my area that carries it, after I started buying it, jumped to $36/bag.


The closest dealer to me is a 93 mile round trip. If they get one in NE Wisconsin, I will consider changing when we transition Luke to adult food.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Though my dogs didn't do as well as hoped on it, something I really liked about Arkat was that they'd ship single bags to my home at what I felt a reasonable cost. Might want to call CS and ask about that.


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## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

theeaterofshades said:


> Yes. In a way... My pup developed some problems with diarrhea on PP Selects puppy (Not to mention that no one carries or can get the large bags in my area) that went away when we combined the food with Chix and rice. When we slowly transitioned him back, he developed the issues again. So I slowly built up to 1/2 of the PP Selects and 1/2 4Health puppy which Diamond manufactures.
> 
> I contacted them to check on the differences as the nutrition and ingreedient lists match up between Diamond Naturals LB Puppy and 4Health puppy. Diamond said the following:
> Thank you for your inquiries. Actually, the two formulas very similar, however, the 4health formula contains more rice and potatoes and less barley and oatmeal.
> ...


I noticed the same thing. Thanks for clearing that up. I think i'm going to go with the Diamond Nat. LB Puppy to start and go from there. At what age does everyone switch over to an "adult" ration?

Also, thanks to everyone else for your input.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

BoilerMan1812 said:


> I noticed the same thing. Thanks for clearing that up. I think i'm going to go with the Diamond Nat. LB Puppy to start and go from there. *At what age does everyone switch over to an "adult" ration?*
> 
> Also, thanks to everyone else for your input.


I switched to adult food at 12 months..


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

afdahl said:


> I had a disastrous breeding--puppies were weak and 6 out of 8 died. I talked to some people more or less in the repro business. They brought up the flaxseed issue. Apparently flaxseed contains phytoestrogens, which, in high doses in rats, interfere with production of progesterone, the hormone that maintains pregnancy. As it happens, this was the first time I had fed my pregnant bitch on Diamond, which contains flaxseed, instead of Eukanuba puppy. One episode proves nothing--but the issue did come up, and I read the research paper describing the effect in rats.
> 
> Amy Dahl


I have an research article on soy from my repro vet that would be similar to the phytoestrogen theory with flax. I can forward it if anyone that is interested. Soy in food would act similar to flax.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

slammer said:


> Either the Sams Club or Costco brands were produced by Purina under the Exceed tag I believe but I understand they switched mills and many are reporting issues with soft stool.


I fed the old formula and am considering using it again.It sells for $28.99/ 44#.

Does anyone who used to feed the old formula, feed it and if so, what do you think of it ?

john


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## RoosterBuster (Aug 24, 2010)

We were feeding Blue Buffalo, and after the dog not being too interested in the food, and him having bad flakes, we switched over to 4 Health. Ingredient profile looks good, and it's saving us 15 bucks a bag. We found it at TSC. So far so good.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

John
I fed Exceed for 15 yrs, last summer they dropped the fat to I think 16% and the recipe changed, I did not like it, softer stools , more of them. I was really pissed, becuase they did not change the bag in any way, just snuck in the new ratios .
I now feed PMI Exclusive, a bit more expensive then the Exceed, But the dogs are doing great and there is LOW stool volume with tight consistancy


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

torg said:


> This was the information given to us at a Royal Canin seminar. That the plastic absorbs enough of the fat sprayed on the food to cause a thin layer of rancid fat on the plastic. This rancid oil film then breaks down the Vitamin E. They stated the bags interior are made to have the food stored in them and the food should be left in the bags not dumped into a plastic container. I have no idea about metal. I would not think metal is as absorbent, they only mentioned plastic. Food can be left in the bag and placed in a plastic container without problems.


That is confusing because the inside of every bag I've seen bag is lined with plastic. Most all are blown films which are generally composed of the same resins used for a typical container you would put dog foos in. I could understand the company telling you to occasionally sterilized your storeage tote.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

This (the cost of food) is a recurrent topic. It is curious to me that given the huge amount of investment we make in our dogs in time, facilities, and other resources that some will quibble about a few extra bucks a month for proven consistent high quality food for our dogs. 

Really, does the cost of food for a month alter any of our lifestyles to a significant degree?


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

EdA said:


> This (the cost of food) is a recurrent topic. It is curious to me that given the huge amount of investment we make in our dogs in time, facilities, and other resources that some will quibble about a few extra bucks a month for proven consistent high quality food for our dogs.
> 
> Really, does the cost of food for a month alter any of our lifestyles to a significant degree?


 
My thoughts exactly. Probably the most important thing you do for your dog and people want to worry about a few more buck a month


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I feed a 34# bag a week. So at $29/bag that is about $.85lb. If another bag of food contains 44lb and costs the same, it is about $.66lb or about $.19 less a pound, or $350 less in a year.......

All else being equal (?) it's foolhardy to fork over the extra $$$$$

"Watch your pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves" regards.

john


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I feed a 34# bag a week. So at $29/bag that is about $.85lb. If another bag of food contains 44lb and costs the same, it is about $.66lb or about $.19 less a pound, or $350 less in a year.......
> 
> All else being equal (?) it's foolhardy to fork over the extra $$$$$
> 
> ...


Just curious if you cost/analyze your own diet with the same level of scrutiny, do you analyze everything you spend money on in terms of pennies?

Penny Wise And Pound Foolish Regards


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Nuthin for nuthin....some people HAVE to count pennies. God Bless if YOU don't have to but others might not be AS fortunate, but still enjoy living with and training their dog(s). Would you take that away from them if they could not spend $50 a bag of dog food?????

Merry Christmas!!


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

I have a friend, recently deceased, who was a retired veterinarian. John spent most of his professional life as a research scientist, who studied animal nutrition and disease.

He fed his dogs the regular grocery store variety of Purina and not because he was cheap. 

He's toured the Purina plant on a number of occasions. It was his opinion (science based) that spending any more on dog food, than the cheaper variety of Purina, was unnecessary to fulfill the nutritional needs of most canines. 

He did supplement his dogs diet in the fall if they were working hard (he was an upland bird hunter) but the cheapest variety Purina was all they got most of the time. 

From what I saw (purely unscientific and subjective) his dogs did as well or better energy wise and lived just as long and healthy a life, as my dogs who were fed a much higher priced food.

For what it's worth.............


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

After my dog saw what I will pay for a bottle of good Scotch, he will not allow me to buy less expensive dog food, all in perspective....


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> This (the cost of food) is a recurrent topic. It is curious to me that given the huge amount of investment we make in our dogs in time, facilities, and other resources that some will quibble about a few extra bucks a month for proven consistent high quality food for our dogs.
> 
> Really, does the cost of food for a month alter any of our lifestyles to a significant degree?


Doc, with only two dogs my feed bill is pretty reasonable. 

But... I used to feed Eagle. I had a young dog who wasn't doing well on it so I was thinking of switching but wasn't to sure to what to switch. Then Eagle changed their bag size to 33 lbs and kept the price the same. It was then over a $ a pound. I tried a couple of brands and settled on Exceed Lamb and Rice for the dogs I had then. You could see the difference in the one dog in less than a week. It agreed with him, and the price was significantly less. My other dog could care less what I fed as long as I fed on time. I felt used and abused by Eagle. They charged high $ for something that didn't work to well for me and then they raised their price! I felt taken advantage of.

I used to get beat very regularly by Len Ferucci. I fed a fairly high $ food then and he fed junk from Costco. It made me think that what we're feeding is more about how we feel than what the dogs actually need.

Another point is availabilty. When I'm gone from home I can get Exceed just by going into a Sam's club. Try traveling and looking in a strange city for a place that sells Eucanuba. The first time I traveled (I admit before internet) I looked and looked for Eucanuba. I found a feed store that would order it but I was traveling through. I bought some Purina from a grocery store and went through the adjustment period with the dog. He wasn't one with a sensitive stomache so it was fairly quick and painless. He did fine on it for the trip.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> He's toured the Purina plant on a number of occasions. It was his opinion (science based) that spending any more on dog food, than the cheaper variety of Purina, was unnecessary to fulfill the nutritional needs of most canines.


There used to be a lot of people that fed Purina Dog Chow from the mill and many lived long lives but not every dog does as well on it as others do. I had one client that was feeding it complain their dog had a really bad coat. I told them to try a bag of Euk and the transformation was unbelievable. 

I am of the belief it's the cheapest thing you can do for your dog for his longevity and health. I also think the higher prices are not all due to advertising but there is a difference in grades of ingredients-as in cheaper ingredients, grain that isn't dried properly, more contaminants and molds, and more downed animals raised in less than ideal conditions. Only the manufacturer, the plant manager, and the quality control people know what is really in that food. The ingredients that are rejected by the QC dept of a dog food manufacturer probably go into the lower priced foods.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

ErinsEdge said:


> There used to be a lot of people that fed Purina Dog Chow from the mill and many lived long lives but not every dog does as well on it as others do. I had one client that was feeding it complain their dog had a really bad coat. I told them to try a bag of Euk and the transformation was unbelievable.
> 
> I am of the belief it's the cheapest thing you can do for your dog for his longevity and health. I also think the higher prices are not all due to advertising but there is a difference in grades of ingredients-as in cheaper ingredients, grain that isn't dried properly, more contaminants and molds, and more downed animals raised in less than ideal conditions. Only the manufacturer, the plant manager, and the quality control people know what is really in that food. The ingredients that are rejected by the QC dept of a dog food manufacturer probably go into the lower priced foods.


I am of the belief that we all can believe whatever we want. 

Simply because an ingredient is defined by some as "cheaper" does not necessarily mean the ingredient is deficient in supplying adequate nutritional needs. 

Simply throwing money at something does not necessarily mean it's better. Dog food manufacturers play (capitalize) on peoples love for their animals and reap enormous profits from our (dog lovers) vulnerability (read "guilt") about doing what's best for our animals. 

Some of it is beneficial...........some............maybe not so. 

Sometimes.............less is more regards,


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

My argument is not about feeding Dog Chow. But I do feel there a quite a few foods out there in the $30-35 range that performance dogs do great on. I do not feel it is neccessary to spend $45-50 a bag for the same results.
I HAVE fed ProPlan Performance and Euk and see no change by, what some may feel, is "down grading" to a less expensive food. 
To each their own


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I am of the belief that we all can believe whatever we want. :smile:


Exactly-lots of kids sustain on cheap hot dogs and mac and fake cheese. They don't need prime rib but there is a difference in inferior filler ingredients in cheap hot dogs.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Bridget Bodine said:


> But I do feel there a quite a few foods out there in the $30-35 range that performance dogs do great on. I do not feel it is neccessary to spend $45-50 a bag for the same results.


Good science (not anecdotal evidence and subjective interpretation about how wet and cold Fido's nose is or how shiny her coat is) would probably fully support your views on this subject.

Unfortunately, this discussion has and will go on forever........with no resolution because "feelings", emotion and subjective interpretation will inevitably overide the best science of the day. 

If a person "feels" the need to spend 50 to 75 dollars on a bag of dog food (even though there is absolutely no scientific evidence to substantiate the costs/benefits) then by all means........................don't let the truth, the facts, common sense or better judgement get in the way of those "feelings"...........


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> Just curious if you cost/analyze your own diet with the same level of scrutiny, do you analyze everything you spend money on in terms of pennies?
> 
> Penny Wise And Pound Foolish Regards


Yes.
I buy the "day old bread" , save 50% (that's $2 bucks a loaf savings for the kind I eat) and still finish the loaf 3 days before the _best if used by_ date

Besides that $350 would pay one dogs entry fee to a National. I'd hate for him to have to stay home because we squandered it unnecessarily on high end dog food

john


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

"Good science (not anecdotal evidence and subjective interpretation about how wet and cold Fido's nose is or how shiny her coat is) would probably fully support your views on this subject"
Quoting labguy

Yep , you are right, unfortunately I did not do the scientific testing required, therefore my research is definately flawed, I withdraw it from consideration........
but my dog's noses ARE wet !!!!( not that that means anything) and their coats very thick and very shiny( with no baths) , I have no joint problems (knock wood) , no cruciate problems, they have good stamina, my oldest 8 1/2 keeps muscle with little work, my pregnant bitch is in fabulous coat and has a belly full and my show dog keeps fat with little food........ I have no digestional issues,with few , very solid stools to pick up 
It's not broke................


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I am of the belief it's the cheapest thing you can do for your dog for his longevity and health. I also think the higher prices are not all due to advertising but there is a difference in grades of ingredients-as in cheaper ingredients, grain that isn't dried properly, more contaminants and molds, and more downed animals raised in less than ideal conditions. Only the manufacturer, the plant manager, and the quality control people know what is really in that food. The ingredients that are rejected by the QC dept of a dog food manufacturer probably go into the lower priced foods.


I hope this is true, it's one of the reasons I feed PPP. I believe we ask more out of our dogs, & I don't believe a lot of dog foods were formulated for this kind of activity.


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## WingsAtDawn (Jun 15, 2009)

I'm feeding Kirkland chicken & Rice to both my Chessies - no problems with gas and both dogs are doing very well on it - cost is about $23 per 50lb bag and it is made by Diamond. In addition I give both dogs a Costco Omega Fish Oil tab - the same one I take every day.


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## Blackbear (Apr 23, 2010)

I just looked at Kirkland it has good ingredients in it. Another good dog food that's not over priced is Victor. I did research on dog food for about a month . . . it's an ongoing thing with me. During that research I spoke to a vet dietitian. There is a difference when a manufacture is using better ingredients w/o any by-products or corn for filler. It is the same with what we eat. If we eat junk food with no nutritional value we feel it and look it. Here are a few links to evaluate your dog food. Once I took my dogs off foods with by-products – I could see the difference in performance, stools, and coat. The hardest thing is finding a good dog food at affordable prices.
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com
http://www.dogfoodproject.com
http://www.victordogfood.com (I have just started looking into this one. I called them to see what their Calcium & Phosphate % was) Cost $26 for 40lbs


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## Wayne Beck (Mar 22, 2010)

With my first lab I fed him Iams and thats what I started my second dog on. Now with the pup I started him on pro plan large breed puppy. I have also switched my yellow lab on to PP large breed shredded. I can say that the gas is better on proplan than it was on Iams. His Iams farts were terrible. He may have a little less gas but it doesnt smell as bad.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Blackbear said:


> There is a difference when a manufacture is using better ingredients w/o any by-products or *corn for filler*.


Do you really think that corn is a "filler" ?



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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Doc, I would like to know what you think is the nutritional value the corn provides if it is not "filler."


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

2tall said:


> Doc, I would like to know what you think is the nutritional value the corn provides if it is not "filler."


The definition of a "filler" is an ingredient that has no nutritional value and is just put in to increase the volume of a food. Many "fillers" are an important source of fiber, which although it has no nutritional value, does provide a place for beneficial bacteria to live and reproduce and also a firm stool. A good (common) example is Dried Beet Pulp.

*Whole Yellow Corn *is the entire corn kernel ground or chopped. It is used as a *source of carbohydrates* to provide energy. Is a good source of *Linoleic acid*, an essential fatty acid for healthy skin & coat, and antioxidants like *Beta-Carotene & Vitamin E*. 



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