# Silver "Labs" and AKC



## Terri (May 28, 2008)

This weekend at an agility trial a woman comes up to me to talk about Labradors. She runs a BFL and I run CFL. She starts telling me she is looking at getting another puppy and would like to run it in agility. She then shows me two pictures of silver "Lab" puppies and tells me she does not know which one to get. I tell her they are not a recognized color. She tells me they are registered as chocolate, but in a couple years the silver color will be recognized and then they will be registered as silver. Has anyone else heard this? She also told me they are DNA tested pure Labs and have all the health clearances. I did not get the name of the breeder, but I told her to go to the shelter and get a puppy, but she told me silver is in high demand and she is going to pay $1,200. for this puppy. I have read stories about these breeders, but is the AKC or Lab parent club really going to recognize this color or is this another selling point??? I know most field people are not interested in silver, but how do the show people feel about the color? Doesn't the parent club make the rules and do both show and field people have to agree on a change? 



Terri


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Isn't it crazy people will pay more for silver than chocolate and they'll pay more for red than yellow?


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Terri said:


> This weekend at an agility trial a woman comes up to me to talk about Labradors. She runs a BFL and I run CFL. She starts telling me she is looking at getting another puppy and would like to run it in agility. She then shows me two pictures of silver "Lab" puppies and tells me she does not know which one to get. I tell her they are not a recognized color. She tells me they are registered as chocolate, but in a couple years the silver color will be recognized and then they will be registered as silver. Has anyone else heard this? She also told me they are DNA tested pure Labs and have all the health clearances. I did not get the name of the breeder, but I told her to go to the shelter and get a puppy, but she told me silver is in high demand and she is going to pay $1,200. for this puppy. I have read stories about these breeders, but is the AKC or Lab parent club really going to recognize this color or is this another selling point??? I know most field people are not interested in silver, but how do the show people feel about the color? Doesn't the parent club make the rules and do both show and field people have to agree on a change?
> 
> 
> 
> Terri


this is what is on the AKC Labrador Retriever Club's web site about silver labs
http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages/show_detail_news.php?nid=3


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## blindfaith (Feb 5, 2006)

Boy does this sound familiar! In 1991 a guy who bought a started Lab from me told me he was going to get a silver and then the same conversation....in two years they would be a registered color...I offered to bet...he did not take me on..and here we are today...round and round!


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

A part of me wants to see her this weekend and give her a print out from the AKC Retriever Labrador Clubs web site, but I might feel better to just bet her big money. I hate to see people get burned, but sometimes when I have tried to help I just feel the heat. Most people have to learn the hard way.

Terri


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## knash3 (May 17, 2012)

Weimerdor?


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Here's my question, and it may be a dumb one.....but if you can register a "silver" lab as a chocolate, what's the difference? AKC is recognizing the animal, just not as a "silver" lab. Can someone explain this?


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Registering "silvers" as chocolates is misrepesentation. It is not a muted chocolate...as stated on the LRC website, the general concensus is that they were cross-bred with Weims and are not purebred.

There is no genetic test avaialble yet to test a dog for purity--we can't run blood samples and say this is a Lab, this is a crossbred, this is a boxer, etc. I read somewhere that this testing is on the horizon, but have no idea if/when it will really happen.

AKC does not monitor these types of things. It is up to the parent club of the breed. If someone marks "chocolate" on the registration papers, there is no way for AKC to know it isn't a chocolate.

Meredith


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

mwk56 said:


> Registering "silvers" as chocolates is misrepesentation. It is not a muted chocolate...as stated on the LRC website, the general concensus is that they were cross-bred with Weims and are not purebred.
> 
> There is no genetic test avaialble yet to test a dog for purity--we can't run blood samples and say this is a Lab, this is a crossbred, this is a boxer, etc. I read somewhere that this testing is on the horizon, but have no idea if/when it will really happen.
> 
> ...


Gotcha....thanks. So, you're saying somewhere in the dog's line, a labrador was bred with a Weim? Know the color of the dog is recessive, but I wonder if it really comes from Weims??? Interesting.....


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Technically, I do not think there is a "dilute" gene in Labradors, so the only way to get "sliver" or "charcoal" is cross-breeding. Here is the best color genetics explanation for Labs I have ever found:

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html

Meredith


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Was judging a junior HT a couple of years ago. Guy brought what he said was a "silver lab" to the line. Sorry. I know what labs are supposed to look like, and I know what Wiemers look like. If there was any lab blood in that dog it did not get to his body structure, his head or his eyes. And the dog had no clue what to do with a bird. That was the only time I was happy to fail a dog. It did not belong there. But that did not stop the guy from trying to sell the dog's "qualities" to anybody gullible enough to listen.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

jb504079 said:


> Gotcha....thanks. So, you're saying somewhere in the dog's line, a labrador was bred with a Weim? Know the color of the dog is recessive, but I wonder if it really comes from Weims??? Interesting.....


At this point the cross was probably so far back that it would be hard to find genetically in any case, the kennel that housed both Labs and Weim where such a cross might've accidentally happened if it happened at all, was back in the 1940's. Unless people are doing it again for marketing That's a lot of generations of breeding back to pure lab stock for one little recessive to get lost in a bunch of different lines without breeders knowing it, if it even came from a cross, and wasn't a hidden gene in original lines. Whatever the Lab clubs stance on it, for conformation etc. I'd assume they'll be considered a fault , not to standard and eliminated from show, however Show doesn't have the same pull in the pet nor performance world. So even if the coloration is considered a fault, it doesn't stop them from being bred, doesn't stop them from being registered, and doesn't keep them out of performance events. All they can do is prevent them from being registered as Silver, because Silver is not a recognized color in the Lab, unless the Lab club chooses to make it one, or the Lab club-AKC takes a more active stance to eliminate it from registration. I don't see that happening

This is very akin to breeding Dudley's they are a fully registrable Lab, with a dis-qualifying fault, doesn't stop them from being produced, and bred with full papers, in a pet or performance home.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

The show people feel the same about it as anyone who cares about the breed does... that akc really dropped the ball when they went out to examine the kennel producing them and allowing them to be registered as chocolate. Anyone with any ability to see type can see the weim in these dogs and not just the color. 

The cockapoo people have been saying they're going to be an akc recognized breed since the 70s... That'll happen before the LRC recognizes silver labs.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Nicole said:


> The show people feel the same about it as anyone who cares about the breed does... that akc really dropped the ball when they went out to examine the kennel producing them and allowing them to be registered as chocolate. Anyone with any ability to see type can see the weim in these dogs and not just the color.
> 
> The cockapoo people have been saying they're going to be an akc recognized breed since the 70s... That'll happen before the LRC recognizes silver labs.


If I understand this correctly..., the AKC visited a "silver lab" breeder and after examining their "SILVER" color decided that they could be registered as chocolate? Ahh, silver/chocolate same color, apples/oranges same thing? That makes as much sense as American politics in 2013! Slightly off topic, when my dad was a kid he wanted a paint/pinto quarter horse, he had a palomino, so one day after school he grabbed a can of brown and black paint and commenced to "paint" himself a pinto. More I think of it maybe it's not off topic, looked like a pinto but sure as he!! wasn't


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## Jen Marenich (Jan 20, 2013)

May be a bit off the subject, but I know someone who purchased a female black lab puppy from a litter sired by a "Silver" lab. She thought this was a big deal to brag about. The dog is almost 100 lbs and is very tall. I've not measured her, but I'd guess at least 28" at the withers. Very leggy... looks like mixed with Great Dane! I also met a "silver" lab puppy this past summer. Owner told me he had to be on a waiting list for 3 years to get a "silver" from the breeder. I bet for how much he spent he probably could have actually got a dog with pretty good breeding.... Don't even get me started ranting about the price and poor breeding of doodles!!!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

If you repeat a lie enough, people will start to believe it.

Copy this, and paste it in a google search. That'll bring up all the "silver" Lab breeders that you would ever want to find.



> In 1987 we conducted an inquiry into the breeding of the litters that contained the dogs that were registered as silver and one of our representatives was sent to observe several of the dogs that had been registered as silver. Color photographs of these dogs were forwarded to the office of the American Kennel Club where the staff of the AKC and the representative of the Labrador Retriever Club of America examined them. Both parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however both parties felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard describes chocolate as ranging in shade from Sedge to Chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate than as silver."
> 
> Written by Robert Young of the AKC 3/27/00


Robert Young, is/was a photographer for the AKC.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

If you enjoy the person, don't criticize the dog. Most people who love a dog love it in spite of someone's expert opinion, not because of it.

Lord knows it's true for me. I could rattle off a million faults, some that I even agree with. Dog people are pretty darn critical, and everyone's an expert.

i have decided to spend less time criticizing other dogs, less time defending mine, and more time on world peace.

Silver Lab? That's nice. Dorkie-poo? Sounds interesting.


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## BuddyJ (Apr 22, 2011)

jb504079 said:


> Here's my question, and it may be a dumb one.....but if you can register a "silver" lab as a chocolate, what's the difference? AKC is recognizing the animal, just not as a "silver" lab. Can someone explain this?


If you read the post , the silver color only comes from a Weimaramer cross, so even if someone gets it by akc it still isn't helping or improving the lab as a breed. IMO


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

BuddyJ said:


> If you read the post , the silver color only comes from a Weimaramer cross, so even if someone gets it by akc it still isn't helping or improving the lab as a breed. IMO


Oh I agree with you. Just thought since "silver" isn't a recognized color of the breed, AKC would do a little better job of screening registration.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

AKC is allowing them to be papered as chocolate. The governing bodies have accepted them as purebred labrador retrievers. If you have a problem with "silver" labs your problem is with the AKC and LRC. 

There was a guy that sold PET ROCKS. Yes, pet rocks. I don't hate him because he found buyers and made millions of $$, I'm just jealous I wasn't smart enough to do it. Then there is the Sham Wow, Thighmaster, and the most recent craze "Longitude" pills...............buyers are the only way sellers are successfull.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

gdluck said:


> There was a guy that sold PET ROCKS. Yes, pet rocks. I don't hate him because he found buyers and made millions of $$, I'm just jealous I wasn't smart enough to do it.


But while people were stupid enough to buy them, at least he was being honest and calling them rocks.... not turtles. That's the difference here.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

I understand your view but there is no difference. The breeders are saying they are purebred Labs and the AKC and LRC are allowing them to be registered as such. Therefore the AKC and LRC are aknowledging they are purebred. I don't like it any more than you but the failure is with them not the breeders.


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

gdluck said:


> but the failure is with them not the breeders.


The breeders are the ones breeding FOR a color that doesn't exist in this breed and then falsifying the papers (by both registering them as chocolate and really registering them period), they very much share the fault. As well as the ignorant public who gets all starry eyed wanting something "different" or "rare", and not doing the proper breed research ahead of time.


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Read Fran's comments on the LRC web site again. The LRC does not, repeat, does not recognize what is advertised as a "silver lab". The AKC did drop the ball on this. If you register it as a "chocolate" yet advertise and sell it as a "silver"---says something right there re the breeders. As to the color being recognized or accepted by the LRC in the relatively near future, make it a big bet! There are three colors: black, yellow, and chocolate.

Glenda


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Ok, so if a silver lab is the result of a cross breeding of a lab and a Weimar, how can one make an argument for the pups being "pure bred" again???

I agree, the AKC dropped the ball on this one.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

There's lots of breeds that carry the dilution gene. It didn't have to be a Weim outcross.

And, it doesn't matter what breed it was. 
What matters, is that Labs are not supposed to carry the dilution gene.

They aren't supposed to have tan points, ticking, brindling, or polka dots either.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

copterdoc said:


> There's lots of breeds that carry the dilution gene. It didn't have to be a Weim.
> 
> And, it doesn't matter what breed it was.
> What matters, is that Labs are not supposed to carry the dilution gene.
> ...


Precisely....so these "breeders" of silver labs, they're selling pups and taking deposits before the pups are even born. They seem pretty certain the dilution gene will manifest in the upcoming litter....seems a little strange to me.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> What matters, is that Labs are not supposed to carry the dilution gene.
> They aren't supposed to have tan points, ticking, brindling, or polka dots either.


AMEN! my luck my next litter will have all of them


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

jb504079 said:


> Precisely....so these "breeders" of silver labs, they're selling pups and taking deposits before the pups are even born. They seem pretty certain the dilution gene will manifest in the upcoming litter....seems a little strange to me.


They know that two dogs affected with dilution, will produce 100% dilute pups.

They could do the same thing, with tan points.
But, there's no money to be made in AKC registered Labs with tan points.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

luvalab said:


> If you enjoy the person, don't criticize the dog. Most people who love a dog love it in spite of someone's expert opinion, not because of it.
> 
> Lord knows it's true for me. I could rattle off a million faults, some that I even agree with. Dog people are pretty darn critical, and everyone's an expert.
> 
> ...


That attitude may cause you less stress in the short run, but not standing for principles will cost you big time in the long run.

Can you say "Universal Health Care sounds nice." or " We can't all have a job." or "Sure you can have my guns."

All it takes for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing! 

As a Lab breeder I say Silver Labs are the product of evil and not to be tolerated let alone condoned.

Swack


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> There's lots of breeds that carry the dilution gene. It didn't have to be a Weim outcross.


It didn't HAVE to be, but again if you just look at the type of the dogs, it's pretty obvious. Especially the "original" silver lines that they are all heavily inbred on. 



> They aren't supposed to have tan points, ticking, brindling, or polka dots either.


The "cause" of tan points and brindling are documented in our breed and while they can pop up, a responsible breeder will avoid producing them. Dilute is not documented in the breeds origins and silver breeders at first believed it magically appeared and will now argue it's been there all along, but us plain colored folks have been hiding it. I can't help you with polka dots


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## BAYDOG (May 30, 2009)

I feel bad for the Labs, with popularity, comes recklessness. I hope you are not going to have to watch , as did the Irish Setter folks, the downfall of a great breed due to breeding for color and total disregard of huntablity. And I know, "we will never let that happen " will ring out, as I am sure it did with them.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

There have been many topics about Silver Labradors that the OP might search for here on RTF. This was one of the more in depth ones that might give the OP more background. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?39324-quot-Silver-quot-lab-volunteers

There is a rebuttal to Fran Smith's LRC article that some might be interested in if they are open minded enough to hear out both sides of this debate. http://www.labradorcouncil.com/lrc-position.html
Other insightful positions on that site as well that don't quite fit the rabid, uneducated, puppy mill, hillbilly mentality that so many naysayers attribute to all those who are supportive of these Labradors. There are even comments there about the importance of retrieving instinct, maintaining a working retriever, and health testing. Sentiment that people here would also stand for. 
It appears that there are more and more who are working to produce trainable, well-rounded, healthy Labradors. I'm not saying that all "silver" Lab breeders are doing right by their dogs, heaven knows many are still just breeding the color for the money and hardly know the head from the tail of a dog. Yet, I suppose that would be true for the majority of back yard "breeders," regardless of what color their Labs might be.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

There are three colors of Labradors. Black, Yellow, and Chocolate. 

If the AKC says the gray color is considered chocolate, then why do all the gray Lab folks keep fighting...why not just call them chocolate? Why insist on a special color name all their own? I don't see the folks with "fox red" yellows trying to claim they are a separate color from yellow?


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Swack said:


> That attitude may cause you less stress in the short run, but not standing for principles will cost you big time in the long run.
> 
> Can you say "Universal Health Care sounds nice." or " We can't all have a job." or "Sure you can have my guns."
> 
> ...


As a human being, I say dogs are here to serve the pleasures of man. What brings me pleasure may not bring someone else pleasure. When someone I like takes pleasure in their polka-dotted malti-schit-a-poo, I am happy for that person, and leave them alone, even though I think it's kind of stupid. If they ask me what I think, I use my best judgment as to how I want our human relationship to continue--with the foreknowledge that everyone who loves a dog, loves it in spite of (not because of) my opinion.

Other peoples' pleasures may be stupid, in my estimation, but they are still their own and they have a right to them, and I appreciate that right. Paying good money for a silver Lab is pretty stupid. But if it makes someone I like happy, I'm not going to get so worked up about it that it jeapordizes the human relationship.

Believing dogs are the repositories of all good and evil in this world is putting way too much pressure on the poor beasts.


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## Scum Frog (Nov 12, 2012)

Sharon Potter said:


> There are three colors of Labradors. Black, Yellow, and Chocolate.
> 
> If the AKC says the gray color is considered chocolate, then why do all the gray Lab folks keep fighting...why not just call them chocolate? Why insist on a special color name all their own? I don't see the folks with "fox red" yellows trying to claim they are a separate color from yellow?


two reasons:

1) $$$$
2) See #1


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

luvalab said:


> As a human being, I say dogs are here to serve the pleasures of man. What brings me pleasure may not bring someone else pleasure. When someone I like takes pleasure in their polka-dotted malti-schit-a-poo, I am happy for that person, and leave them alone, even though I think it's kind of stupid. If they ask me what I think, I use my best judgment as to how I want our human relationship to continue--with the foreknowledge that everyone who loves a dog, loves it in spite of (not because of) my opinion.
> 
> Other peoples' pleasures may be stupid, in my estimation, but they are still their own and they have a right to them, and I appreciate that right. Paying good money for a silver Lab is pretty stupid. But if it makes someone I like happy, I'm not going to get so worked up about it that it jeapordizes the human relationship.
> 
> Believing dogs are the repositories of all good and evil in this world is putting way too much pressure on the poor beasts.


Good point. I'm not going to wreck a human relationship over a dog. However, I just think its wrong to capitalize on false advertising and people's ignorance, whether its a dog or a mortgage. It's just wrong. If silver's truly are legitimate, people shouldn't have to falsify registration by calling them chocolates. BUT, I don't blame these people for doing it, because ultimately, AKC is allowing, and in fact suggesting they do it this way.


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

Looks like the silver color probably came from a Norwegian Elkhound outcrossing back in the 1940's:

http://www.labbies.com/silver.htm


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

REPEAT ... They are not falsifying the registration. re read Copterdocs post #16. The AKC said to register them as chocolate. 

Sharon, I don't think they are trying to get their "OWN" color, they just advertise as silvers. The "red" folk don't don't argue about yellow/red because red is an accepted shade of yellow. However they do advertise as "red" or even "white" vs yellow and will charge a premium for those dogs. even in a litter with both the standard "yellow" and the "red" the reds cost more.\

I actually just looked into a litter and one of them turned out to be red. The breeder was "taking bids" on that one. This is not a "backyard" breeding , titled sire dam and all the tests.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

gdluck said:


> REPEAT ... They are not falsifying the registration. re read Copterdocs post #16. The AKC said to register them as chocolate.
> 
> Sharon, I don't think they are trying to get their "OWN" color, they just advertise as silvers. The "red" folk don't don't argue about yellow/red because red is an accepted shade of yellow. However they do advertise as "red" or even "white" vs yellow and will charge a premium for those dogs. even in a litter with both the standard "yellow" and the "red" the reds cost more.


Yes, many people are falsifying registration purposefully. I also stated that its the AKC who is allowing, and in fact suggesting they do this. It's a huge contradiction, because AKC states that NO COAT COLORS other than black, yellow, and chocolate will be accepted for registration. They also suggest silver labs go to pet homes without registration papers in order to discourage this breed flaw. 

So, it's like AKC is saying two contradictory things. It's just weird to me. Perhaps I'm just not a huge fan of diluting the breed for the sake of a fad.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If they don't want their own color, then why do so many of them tell buyers that AKC will recognize the silver color soon? That is not going to happen. Between the parent club, who's guidelines AKC sticks to, and AKC calling them chocolate (which was an admitted error, but once done was done), it's a done deal that silver will not ever be an option on registration papers. Yet the "breeders" continue to spread this misinformation. 

As for the color, while it may well be that it can crop up within purebred Labs, I also used to live close to the original source of the controversy, and there was most certainly at least one Weimaraner there...which mysteriously disappeared around the time AKC came to do their inspection. So....while some may well be crop-outs from purebred lines, not all are. Plus, knowing the person and their reputation, I wouldn't believe a word that they said. And having seen a multitude of the dogs they produced in that area, most looked far more like Weims than Labs, in head, eye color, ears, and body.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

My sister has 2 silver Labs and is a case study for people that disagree with luvalab's posts (especially #35). What am I going to do, "unfriend" her because I disagree with her choice of pet? Her first silver is actually a dilute black, or charcoal-colored dog, now 12. No real beef with that one or how she got it as the dog is a rescue, and even she calls her a Lab x Weim cross because that's what she looks like. She got her at 5 mos. I've told her about the controversy surrounding them and even pointed out some of the threads on this board and elsewhere. To give you an idea of how much of an impression that information made on her, a year ago she bought one of those "evil" overpriced silver Labs. Even though she looked online to find it, her reason for wanting one was that she didn't care if it was a mutt, she likes the one she has so much she wanted another.

Fast forward to now, her puppy is absolutely one of the sweetest Labs you could ever meet. But at just 8 mos. he was diagnosed with such horrific, crippling dysplasia in both hips and elbows that he's doomed to living a life of pain. He can't run and play like other dogs his age. He can barely negotiate steps. He also has a host of auto immune problems (things that don't normally show up in young dogs). My sister claims the breeder said the parents had hips xrayed, but not only did she never get papers, the papers this breeder did provide were ACA or one of those other bogus registries. When she went to pick the puppy up (at 5 wks.) she was not allowed inside the house, nor would they show her either parent.

She's furious and naively thought she could sue the breeder to make things right so she started looking online to see if they'd moved because....surprise, surprise! they've closed their website, email and phone number. In her crusade she found several other disgruntled buyers that like my sister, were no doubt well intentioned but totally clueless about what to look for in a purebred dog of any breed. The particular breeder that sold these damaged puppies, apparently does not register them with AKC, but the pups came with "papers" from one of those bogus registries, ACA I think, and none of the buyers knew enough to recognize this as a red flag. The pups had problems ranging from crippling genetic flaws like my sister's, and stuff like demodectic mange, etc., at least two people had pups that died of parvo within the first 4 days. One poor family took their pup in to be neutered and during the course of the surgery their vet found the pup had a vagina, too--it was a hermaphrodite!

None of these people, including my sister, are what I'd call dumb or uneducated--except about what's involved in producing a quality purebred puppy. Those of us in the small, rather insular world of competing our dogs and seeking the best when we breed a litter or look for a new pup, forget that very few pet owners know what a title is, much less the difference between registration papers from the AKC or the American Pet Dog Registry. "Breed standard" to most of the world, means a representative of that breed made famous by movies, TV or a viral youtube video. Genetic health issues are something us dog snobs like to talk about so we can trash other breeders. I could go on, but you get the point. Silver Labs are but the tip of the iceburg of the big bad world of things to sucker the average pet dog buyer out of his duckets.

I even felt a twinge of guilt, am I so techical and pedantic when I talk about what's involved in breeding that I make people, even my own sister, glaze over and tune me out?


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## AllAroundLab (Dec 21, 2010)

Grasshopper said:


> Looks like the silver color probably came from a Norwegian Elkhound outcrossing back in the 1940's:
> 
> http://www.labbies.com/silver.htm


Whether or not there was a cross to elkhounds in Europe, the d gene locus (responsible for dilution of chocolate to silver in Weims and silver "Labs") is not the gene that gives elkhounds their silvery sable wolf-like coloring, that is the a^w gene (agouti-wolf). Elkhounds are wild-type (referred to as agouti) in coat color, dilution is most definitely not a wild-type coloration.

The information on the website you cite seems to predate identification of and the test for the dilution gene. So, to summarize, the dilute gene now found in a few AKC registered as Lab lines did NOT come from Norwegian elkhounds in the 1940s!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

In doing a little more sleuthing, it appears that the color didn't just crop up in the original guy's lines...his root stock traces back to a puppy mill that bred both Labs and Weims.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

AllAroundLab said:


> ....So, to summarize, the dilute gene now found in a few AKC registered as Lab lines did NOT come from Norwegian elkhounds in the 1940s!


 And even if it did, Labs are not Norwegian Elkhounds.

The dilution gene is not supposed to be there.

The only DNA test needed to determine that a "silver" Lab is not a Lab, is a D locus test. 
If there is one or more recessives there, then the dog is not a Lab.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

gdluck said:


> REPEAT ... They are not falsifying the registration. re read Copterdocs post #16. The AKC said to register them as chocolate.


 You really read that post wrong.

Robert Young is/was a PHOTOGRAPHER.

The story, is a LIE. 
The AKC does not "allow" the registration of dilute Labs, as chocolate.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

copterdoc said:


> You really read that post wrong.
> 
> Robert Young is/was a PHOTOGRAPHER.
> 
> ...


That's also my understanding. Therefore, people are falsifying their registration of silver labs. Either way, I think the AKC should be a little more clear about this issue. But I don't see how that would stop someone from registering a silver pup as a chocolate. Someone else said it earlier, there are a ton of people who aren't concerned about the integrity of the breed. They just want the newest fad so they can tell everyone about how they bought a rare dog.


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

I was thinking of getting a British Silver Lab...


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Erik Vigeland said:


> I was thinking of getting a British Silver Lab...


Lol...that's funny right there.


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## Takem_brewer (Jun 8, 2010)

If the people that breed silver labs would like to be able to legitimately register their pups/dogs with the akc, there best bet would be to start their own breed and go from there. It would take a long time, but could be done. They could call themselves whatever they want (silver retrievers or whatever), make their own standard, etc.... By then I would think there would be some responsible breeders to promote the new breed.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

jb504079 said:


> That's also my understanding. Therefore, people are falsifying their registration of silver labs. Either way, I think the AKC should be a little more clear about this issue. But I don't see how that would stop someone from registering a silver pup as a chocolate. Someone else said it earlier, there are a ton of people who aren't concerned about the integrity of the breed. They just want the newest fad so they can tell everyone about how they bought a rare dog.


There is a big difference between telling somebody that they can't register a dilute Lab as a Silver, and saying that it is perfectly fine to intentionally produce dilution, and register it as Chocolate.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to register a dog with a disqualifying fault like dilution, tan points, or even polka dots. 
Sometimes when you breed two dogs, you find something weird.

But, you don't keep trying to intentionally produce it.

What makes dilution in Labs unique, is that there is a demand for it, and there is money to be made, by intentionally reproducing it.
And that makes it a problem. 

For the registry, it's a problem that while not without similar precedent, has not yet been satisfactorily resolved. 
It's been ignored, and allowed to grow into a bigger problem.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

copterdoc said:


> There is a big difference between telling somebody that they can't register a dilute Lab as a Silver, and saying that it perfectly fine to intentionally produce dilution, and register it as Chocolate.
> 
> I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to register a dog with a disqualifying fault like dilution, tan points, or even polka dots.
> Sometimes when you breed two dogs, you find something weird.
> ...


Completely agree. As long as there is a demand for em, problem will persist.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

True a responsible breeder when faced with a odd duck puppy, sells them on limited registration and insists that they are nuetered/spayed, so the gene doesn't stay in the population. Still most silvers, I've seen, that actually look like labs, look to be just a very light forms of chocolate, the only way you know they are silver is because people want to brag about it. Where-as a normal person who test& trials would be trying to convince people he was chocolate. Trained one up for a person a few years ago, he might've been silver to the owner, but he was chocolate on the truck


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## AllAroundLab (Dec 21, 2010)

Takem_brewer said:


> If the people that breed silver labs would like to be able to legitimately register their pups/dogs with the akc, there best bet would be to start their own breed and go from there. It would take a long time, but could be done. They could call themselves whatever they want (silver retrievers or whatever), make their own standard, etc.... By then I would think there would be some responsible breeders to promote the new breed.


Where is "like" on this forum!

If a breeder or group of breeders is intentionally breeding for a trait that is objectively at odds with the breed standard (color, as opposed to subjective disagreement over things like what is "moderate"), it seems obvious that they are creating a new breed, so they shouldn't continue to call it by the name of an existing breed.

If silver breeders want to be respected, step up and form a breed club for their new breed, a club rescue network, do real health clearances...


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I don't want a silver but I do want one of these:


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Julie R. said:


> My sister has 2 silver Labs and is a case study for people that disagree with luvalab's posts (especially #35). What am I going to do, "unfriend" her because I disagree with her choice of pet? Her first silver is actually a dilute black, or charcoal-colored dog, now 12. No real beef with that one or how she got it as the dog is a rescue, and even she calls her a Lab x Weim cross because that's what she looks like. She got her at 5 mos. I've told her about the controversy surrounding them and even pointed out some of the threads on this board and elsewhere. To give you an idea of how much of an impression that information made on her, a year ago she bought one of those "evil" overpriced silver Labs. Even though she looked online to find it, her reason for wanting one was that she didn't care if it was a mutt, she likes the one she has so much she wanted another.
> 
> Fast forward to now, her puppy is absolutely one of the sweetest Labs you could ever meet. But at just 8 mos. he was diagnosed with such horrific, crippling dysplasia in both hips and elbows that he's doomed to living a life of pain. He can't run and play like other dogs his age. He can barely negotiate steps. He also has a host of auto immune problems (things that don't normally show up in young dogs). My sister claims the breeder said the parents had hips xrayed, but not only did she never get papers, the papers this breeder did provide were ACA or one of those other bogus registries. When she went to pick the puppy up (at 5 wks.) she was not allowed inside the house, nor would they show her either parent.
> 
> ...


Julie,

No one is suggesting that you "unfriend" your sister or even that you "hate" her dog. All I was saying is that *we* (those who own, breed, test, trial, love and _know_ the Labrador retriever) should NOT act as if the so-called "silver, charcoal, or champagne Labs" are acceptable Labrador retrievers! According to the standard, colors other than Black, Yellow, or Chocolate are a disqualifying trait. Don't tell me about symantics; Silver isn't chocolate! Even if it was it is a very poor shade that should not be intentionally bred. If sold they should be sold without registration or at the very least with a limited registration so their "fault" will not be perpetuated.

I agree with you that the general public is ignorant about pure-bred dogs and what to look for when buying a dog. But, ignorance can be fixed! In this day of instant information at nearly everyone's fingertips there is no excuse for a person to not be able to get the facts. Those who don't are lazy and may be thinking with their "hearts" rather than using the brain god gave them. Don't feel guilty for your sister's poor choice. She made her own bed. I'm betting she may be willing to listen to you the next time she thinks about buying a dog!

Swack


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

If the Lab breed gets ruined by the silver color I will just switch to a Golden Retriever ;-)


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## BuddyJ (Apr 22, 2011)

Erik Vigeland said:


> I was thinking of getting a British Silver Lab...


Okay, now I'll break out the popcorn!


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## Erik Vigeland (Mar 13, 2012)

BuddyJ said:


> Okay, now I'll break out the popcorn!


I was totally kidding...just in case the sarcasm didn't come through on that post!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Do they even have silver labs in Britain? Might help with the cross-breed vs. hidden dilution gene arguments


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## Nicole (Jul 8, 2007)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Do they even have silver labs in Britain? Might help with the cross-breed vs. hidden dilution gene arguments


The good ol' usa was the only place silvers magically appeared up until a couple years ago. Unfortunately now, they've been *exported* to a number of countries worldwide.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> You really read that post wrong.
> 
> Robert Young is/was a PHOTOGRAPHER.
> 
> ...


OH! 

well then i say we give all them silver breeding lovely folk lollipop's and ice cream.


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Nicole said:


> The good ol' usa was the only place silvers magically appeared up until a couple years ago. Unfortunately now, they've been *exported* to a number of countries worldwide.


A couple articles I read said that experts had traced the cross breeding to 3 kennels in America back in the 30s or 40s. Crossed with Weimaraner which always carries the diluted gene. Weimaraner is a diluted breed all together. I took some genetics courses in college, and this is the only way, to my limited understanding, that breeders can replicate the diluted gene across multiple generations. 

Experts in these articles believe the diluted gene was introduced by accident, and that breeders of silver labs today are keeping the dilution going by purposefully breeding for it, and the only way they could replicate it is by cross breeding with a dog that carries the diluted gene, which is initially taken from a Weimaraner.

Example they gave was breeding a chocolate lab with a Weimar, introducing the diluted gene. You get mixed pups, chocolates and silvers. You keep the dilution going by breeding brother to sister, or father to daughter, so on and so on. This would also explain all the health issues of silvers as well IMO. just my .02, but its not good for the breed.


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## weathered (Mar 17, 2011)

jb504079 said:


> Example they gave was breeding a chocolate lab with a Weimar, introducing the diluted gene. You get mixed pups, chocolates and silvers. You keep the dilution going by breeding brother to sister, or father to daughter, so on and so on. This would also explain all the health issues of silvers as well IMO. just my .02, but its not good for the breed.


I agree there was probably a lot of inbreeding and line breeding to keep the gene at first. But breeding a non dilute gene carrying chocolate to a Weim produces all dark colored dogs, no "silvers." A second generation Weim to chocolate cross, bred back to a Weim would produce some dark chocolates and some silvers. So the first cross did not produce a silver lab, but subsequent generations bred to each other would produce some silver colored dogs.


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## Terri (May 28, 2008)

I'm not interested in being an expert in silver Labs". I just want to know if AKC is going to recognize the silver color? Or if any thing can be done to stop breeder fraud/ owner fraud? I have eyes and can see silver is not chocolate. 

Terri


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

AKC is NOT going to recognize the silver color as separate from chocolate. That would require the recommendation of the parent club, and that's not going to happen.

As for people being scammed, it happens all the time when buyers don't do their homework. People will believe what they want to believe. And the gray breeders believe it too, because to do otherwise would cost them money.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

weathered said:


> I agree there was probably a lot of inbreeding and line breeding to keep the gene at first. But breeding a non dilute gene carrying chocolate to a Weim produces all dark colored dogs, no "silvers." A second generation Weim to chocolate cross, bred back to a Weim would produce some dark chocolates and some silvers. So the first cross did not produce a silver lab, but subsequent generations bred to each other would produce some silver colored dogs.


The one set of papers I saw for a silver Lab basically had a family tree that didn't branch. It's actually quite easy to breed for a single recessive trait like the dilution gene. From what I've heard (from fairly knowledgeable sources) it didn't happen in the 1940s, it was much later, late 1980s. Kennel in question, Crist Culo, bred both Labs and Weims. No doubt they bred one or two Weims to Labs and falsified the Weim parent as a purebred Lab to register the pups with the AKC. Then, voila, a litter of all dark colored pups, but all would carry the dilution gene, so all they had to do was breed 2 of those together and the pups would follow the standard Mendellian percentages of a certain number being dilute, a certain number being normal colored, but carrying one gene, and a certain number being solid, not carrying dilute. Then all you have to do is breed 2 dilutes and you'll get nothing but dilutes.

Obviously that kennel started making lots of money on them to the point the guy offered $100,000 if anyone could prove they weren't purebred Labs. No doubt this brag wasn't offered til several generations after the Weim parent and the "straw" parent (the purebred Lab they fraudulently listed as the parent to register the pups) were dead and buried and the kennel no longer kept any Weims. At that time, which may still be true today despite advances, all DNA could do was confirm the parents were the ones listed on the papers, and you can bet they wouldn't offer up the falsly-registered litters, they waited a couple generations. I don't think even today there's a DNA test that could prove these dogs have Weimeraner in them now, it would be too far back in the pedigree. About all you can prove with DNA tests is that the puppies came from the parents listed on the pedigree, and even that can't be proved if the parents are no longer available for DNA sampling.


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

The experience Julie's sister had is just deplorable. Unfortunately, breeders like that are found in all colors and types of Labs, not to mention most other breeds as well. It is a problem that continues to plague unsuspecting puppy buyers. Most every "how to" buy a puppy guideline states to get paperwork verifying the breeder's claims, etc. Unfortunately not every person looking for a new puppy is going to be committed enough to do all their homework and may fall for the cute cuddly pictures, overlooking the all important details. 

I agree that it is unlikely that "Silver" or any other new color will be added to the LRC standard any time soon, if ever. Breeders are unwise to suggest that it is just about to happen. They have been saying that for a couple decades now. "Could" it happen, anything is possible, but if it ever did it would likely not be any time soon though. The hatred, ignorance, and emotion on both sides is much too raw. 

The LRC standard says chocolate can range in shade from "light to dark." The contention that silver Labradors are within the standard is based in that allowed variation of chocolate. We've all seen chocolates along this spectrum of shades; all the genes responsible for the variations have yet to be identified. Though many do not consider "silvers" to fit as a light chocolate, the reason the AKC places them there is based on genetic and physiologic principles and of course their own certified pedigree. Technically, the d gene does not change the pigment color at all, it only affects its placement in the hairs in a more or less random fashion instead of an even fashion (same as with Julie's beautiful silverpeakes). Silver Labs are homozygous recessive at the B locus, just like every other chocolate. The gene affecting the shade of the B locus in silver Labradors is known to be the d gene. Other different genes that also affect shade are yet unidentified, albeit present and affecting shade. 
Regarding the often claimed, but never proven, crossing to a weimeraner, the AKC did the best they could at the time to investigate this accusation. They found no evidence supporting it, neither did the LRC (and they REALLY wanted to find it). It certainly could have happened, again nothing is impossible, but it is much more likely that if the d gene was introduced to the breed that it unknowingly came in a very long ago through some of the other breeds that were crossed into the Lab that have that gene in their gene pool. Much to the chagrin of those who hate these Labradors, AKC has simply taken a very pragmatic approach, based on genetic principles, pedigrees, and the findings of their investigations. 

Whether we like it or not, Silver Labradors are here for good. Instead of stereotyping those who own or breed them as totally ignorant or the epitome of all evil. It would better serve the Labs themselves to encourage and support more ethical breeding practices and more responsible ownership. Then hopefully experiences like Julie's sister had will become much less common.


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## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO THREATEN POEPLE!!!!!
by all means YOU CAN START WITH ME!!!!!!
I WILL NOT BACK DOWN!!!!

well then i say we go string up all them silver breeding SOB's from gdluck!


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## jb504079 (Feb 7, 2011)

Did anyone else see a threat in this thread??? Maybe I missed it...???

Oh, I did see a sarcastic remark about hanging silver breeders.....but did anyone else not think that was sarcasm?


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Everyone return to their cells ,I see a lock down coming.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Shawn White said:


> Everyone return to their cells ,I see a lock down coming.


Not yet, but Robert you need to calm down and please watch the language (acronyms).

And please everyone else watch what you post, it is obvious this is a touchy subject for many. It is obvious that someone's comment was taken personally, please think before you hit submit.

And lastly, please don't take the bait...sometimes it's best to let things be.

FOM
RTF Moderator


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## Takem_brewer (Jun 8, 2010)

robert stoeberl said:


> DO YOU REALLY WANT TO THREATEN POEPLE!!!!!
> by all means YOU CAN START WITH ME!!!!!!
> I WILL NOT BACK DOWN!!!!
> 
> well then i say we go string up all them silver breeding SOB's from gdluck!


Just for curiosities sake, do you health test your breeding stock? I see you breed silver labs.


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## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

Yes i do and this is what we do.

Hip Dysplasia
Heritable eye disease (CERF)
Exercise Induced Collapse (EIC)
Centronuclear Myopathy (CNM)


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I am really very curious Robert, do you have a 5 or 6 generation pedigree you might share? Do your dogs come from field breedings or show breedings?


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## ginnyr (Sep 25, 2007)

why can't the LAB have a dilute gene? IS not the LAB from the st john's dog or the Newfoundland like the Chesapeake Bay retriever? Chesapeakes have had ASH or the dilute brown historically for a long period of time. Newfoundland also have had dilute browns.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

ginnyr said:


> why can't the LAB have a dilute gene? IS not the LAB from the st john's dog or the Newfoundland like the Chesapeake Bay retriever? Chesapeakes have had ASH or the dilute brown historically for a long period of time. Newfoundland also have had dilute browns.


 It doesn't matter what breeds made up the foundation dogs for the Labrador Retriever breed.

That's completely, and utterly irrelevant.

The Labrador Retriever, is it's OWN breed today. And it's a breed that is not SUPPOSED TO have any recessive d's, anywhere in any of the dogs being registered with the AKC.
They are supposed to ALL be gone.

Just like there is not supposed to be any non-dilute Weimaraners, there are not supposed to be any dilute Labs.

The Weimaraner breed got rid of all the big D's. The Labrador breed got rid of all the little d's.

That was really hard to do. 
Harder in Labs, because dilution is the recessive expression of what's in the D locus.

These "Silver Lab" breeders are doing the exact opposite of what they are SUPPOSED TO do, when their lines express dilution. 
Instead of striving to stop it's spread, they are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it.


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## robert stoeberl (Jul 29, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I am really very curious Robert, do you have a 5 or 6 generation pedigree you might share? Do your dogs come from field breedings or show breedings?


bridget sorry no i will not share my pedigrees on here. i will tell u some of them came from just pet breeders and came from field lines. 
all my dogs run in AKC and UKC hunt tests! all but one has a title.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

oh oh.........

baaaaaaad peanuts!


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## Ironman (Jan 1, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> It doesn't matter what breeds made up the foundation dogs for the Labrador Retriever breed.
> 
> That's completely, and utterly irrelevant....
> 
> ...


If the foundations of our breed are "utterly irrelevant" than so too is the breed. The breed is only as good as its foundation, it is what defines a breed!

One could say these "field Lab" breeders are doing the exact opposite of what they are SUPPOSED TO do, when their lines express out of standard traits. 
Instead of striving to stop it's spread, they are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it. 
I don't know how many times I have read excuses here as to why it is just fine for field breeders to breed completely out of standard dogs because they love to retrieve more than breathe. It seems to me the kettle is calling the pot black....which some here claim is the only true Labrador color. I suppose that clears it up! We should all breed for and run fire-breathing, carnivorous black gazelles with a killer drive for retrieving.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Robert I can't find your bitch on OFA , could she be under a different name? Your ad says OFA on sire and dam.....
Is there a reason why you don't do elbows? We breed English Setters and have many years and have about 1000 dogs in our sales database and never had to refund money on elbows, so I don't xray. ( we have a ten year money back health guarantee)


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Ironman said:


> If the foundations of our breed are "utterly irrelevant" than so too is the breed. The breed is only as good as its foundation, it is what defines a breed!


 They aren't Wolves anymore.

The "Silver" Lab breeders, are the only ones that are intentionally reproducing, and marketing Labs based on a disqualifying fault, in deliberate defiance of the Breed Standard.

The practice, is despicable.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm curious as to the thought process behind breeding a female that could not get an OFA number and has bad hips? Why would this be done, especially when the pedigree lacks?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

STEP AWAY from the computer....


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

Ironman said:


> If the foundations of our breed are "utterly irrelevant" than so too is the breed. The breed is only as good as its foundation, it is what defines a breed!
> 
> One could say these "field Lab" breeders are doing the exact opposite of what they are SUPPOSED TO do, when their lines express out of standard traits.
> Instead of striving to stop it's spread, they are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it.
> I don't know how many times I have read excuses here as to why it is just fine for field breeders to breed completely out of standard dogs because they love to retrieve more than breathe. It seems to me the kettle is calling the pot black....which some here claim is the only true Labrador color. I suppose that clears it up! We should all breed for and run fire-breathing, carnivorous black gazelles with a killer drive for retrieving.


He has a point. A very good point. when was the last time you saw a field bred lab with a double coat? a TRUE double coat? The show folk are not innocent either. both groups, field and show, have bred for what they want, ignoring the breed standard. The deviation from the standard in both groups is successfull because there are buyers that desire the dog with those deviations. And i just want to say"deviation" one more time for no other reason than it's a cool word.

Those LOVELY breeders of silver labs are no different. They are capitalizing on demand. As far as the poorly intended accusation of them in=breeding, isn't that how all breeds are achieved?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I can show you several hundred field bred labs with a correct, true double coat, and those are just the ones I know of. That doesn't mean they all have it, but it most certainly is present among the field-bred dogs.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

gdluck said:


> He has a point. A very good point. when was the last time you saw a field bred lab with a double coat? a TRUE double coat? The show folk are not innocent either. both groups, field and show, have bred for what they want, ignoring the breed standard. The deviation from the standard in both groups is successfull because there are buyers that desire the dog with those deviations. And i just want to say"deviation" one more time for no other reason than it's a cool word.
> 
> Those LOVELY breeders of silver labs are no different. They are capitalizing on demand. As far as the poorly intended accusation of them in=breeding, isn't that how all breeds are achieved?


No he doesn't.

Dilution, is a disqualifying fault. They are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it. 

Coat dilution is an Autosomal recessive trait, that as far as we can tell was eliminated, or nearly eliminated from the breed a very long time ago.

They are INTENTIONALLY increasing the carrier rate, because doing so furthers their agenda of getting "Silver" added to the list of acceptable colors.
They are deliberately trying to destroy the integrity of the AKC registry.

And they are succeeding. Their progress is slow, but they ARE succeeding in achieving their agenda.

Nobody is intentionally trying to produce Labs with a single coat. Nobody wants to add "single coat" Labs to the breed standard.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> I can show you several hundred field bred labs with a correct, true double coat, and those are just the ones I know of. That doesn't mean they all have it, but it most certainly is present among the field-bred dogs.


And how many lay people know what a correct double coat looks like? FYI, it is NOT the longer "open" coat that many think it is!!


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

No attack on you Ironman. It's just that your post reminds me of how people refer back to the proper "type" in the Labrador Retriever all of the time. When I first saw the stocky, short otter tailed "show" dogs back in the early 90s ( I owned a show bred dog for 10 yrs) my first thought was "dayum, they don't look anything like the Dual Champions and Champions of the early to later (80s) twentieth century. My first HT dog was by a son of the great show champion Shamrock Acres Light Brigade. Believe it, show Labs today look nothing like Brigs. My question is, When people speak of "foundation", which foundation? From 1900-1980ish or late 1980s-present??? Dont mean to hijack the topic. Just saying.
QUOTE=Ironman;1075088]If the foundations of our breed are "utterly irrelevant" than so too is the breed. The breed is only as good as its foundation, it is what defines a breed!

One could say these "field Lab" breeders are doing the exact opposite of what they are SUPPOSED TO do, when their lines express out of standard traits. 
Instead of striving to stop it's spread, they are INTENTIONALLY reproducing it. 
I don't know how many times I have read excuses here as to why it is just fine for field breeders to breed completely out of standard dogs because they love to retrieve more than breathe. It seems to me the kettle is calling the pot black....which some here claim is the only true Labrador color. I suppose that clears it up! We should all breed for and run fire-breathing, carnivorous black gazelles with a killer drive for retrieving. [/QUOTE]


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## Jen Marenich (Jan 20, 2013)

I am probably playing the devil's advocate here, but, weren't yellows, and then chocolates, originally frowned upon? I don't agree with the way silver tends to be a "fad" so far, but how do we really _know? _Didn't yellows and chocolates start out the same way initially?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

gdluck said:


> As far as the poorly intended accusation of them in=breeding, isn't that how all breeds are achieved?


No, it is not. A breed comes from dogs that are genetically strong, and siring/producing their traits (note the plural, traits) when bred to outside stock. The resulting stock is often line-bred to affix traits, while consistently adding outside blood to maintain the overall health and integrity of the line and help eliminate undesirable traits as they crop up. 

While it is true that line-breeding...and the _occasional_ inbreeding...is often done, to consistently inbreed generation after generation to try and solidify a recessive trait....just that one color trait, to the exclusion of all other characteristics...results in all sorts of problems.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Jen Marenich said:


> I am probably playing the devil's advocate here, but, weren't yellows, and then chocolates, originally frowned upon? I don't agree with the way silver tends to be a "fad" so far, but how do we really _know? _Didn't yellows and chocolates start out the same way initially?


Chocolate and Yellow were always in the breed they showed up with high frequency and there genes were never subject to the chopping block, the red-yellow and chocolate are as old as the breed itself. Many Saint John dogs were a liver color. These solid colors were never considered disqualifying faults, unlike the Dudley, black-tan ticked, brindle, long-hair and silver. The Dilution gene was intentionally bred out along with the Agouti genes and several others. To be a lab-a breed genes were fixed at certain loci, the K, C, D etc. Still it's hard to get rid of recessive, so they can hang around, but if they were intentionally bred out, reintroducing them to express, is at odds with the breeds development and standard.

As for Double Coats, almost all field labs have them, a double coat means you can run your finger through the hair and not see skin. Now field labs don't have the long haired coat the Show labs seem to produce, but I went to a Specialty a few years ago they held a Conformation certification @ the hunt test, every field lab that was brought up scored enough points to pass the certification, some faults were found to be sure but no disqualifications and there was great appreciation of their movement.


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