# Judging the Labrador Retriever



## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

I know we have moved on from the discussions on Westminster and Crufts, but I just received this video today and thought I would pass it on. This is a judge who has judged Labradors throughout the world as well as competing with her own. You will note she indicates all the way through that certain physical traits are needed for the Lab to do its job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ReNOm0KXg&feature=share 

Other than the need for a hair re-do on the breeder/judge, it is well done.

Glenda


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks for the link, Glenda.


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## dogcommand (May 22, 2003)

I'll second that Glenda, thanks for posting. That is quite a hair do!


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## kona's mom (Dec 30, 2008)

Great video


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

I think she's cute, the dog not so much. I can't imagine that dog holding up very well hunting.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> I think she's cute, the dog not so much. I can't imagine that dog holding up very well hunting.


I agree. I think that lab would make a wonderful Pet.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

That lab is a youngster, and a really nice "moderate" lab. She must have been doing this from the cradle, because if only looks to be forty years old


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Linda's hair always looks like that.

Something that she forgot to mention with the head is level planes and length of muzzle. The focus/emphasis on the stop I think has minimized this. I was taught, but some now deceased breeders, that when looking at the head from the side, the plane of the top skull and the plane of the muzzle should be level. Additionally, the length of muzzle and length of top skull should be equal. We are losing length of muzzle.

The dog she has on the table is a nice moderate boy. If he showed that he could work, I wouldn't mind having him. I wish the camera man had been videoing from the side when she described the shoulder and upper arm. That assembly is very important and often hard to see/understand.

Why is the breed standard of any breed important? It's why a lab is a lab. It TRYS to describe what should make a lab a lab and a golden a golden and a chessie a chessie. Yes, interpretation is different and many of us, on BOTH sides of this argument, don't agree with what is going on with EITHER end of the spectrum. We've discussed the tail thing before, but look at all the books writted about the labrador published. One thing mentioned time and time again is an OTTER tail. It is a breed trait. Just something to distinguish it from others. Maybe it's not a rudder anymore, mine use theirs, but again, the purpose of the dog (fishing) has changed somewhat.

Thanks Glenda. I didn't realize Linda had been interviewed.

Sue Puff


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/watch/display.aspx?breed=2048
It was on the other thread (which I couldn't find) where we were discussing the differences between the show dogs and field dogs.

In the UK, they have judges fill out forms that draw attention to what the judges see as negative emerging trends for the breeds. According to this link, the judges there think there is a problem with too-short legs and overweight.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/watch/display.aspx?breed=2048

That is also the same as what the judges feel is wrong with the Goldens.

So, while the judges must choose the best of what is presented to them on that day ... the same concerns expressed on this forum seem similar to what the judges are also thinking.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> I think she's cute, the dog not so much. I can't imagine that dog holding up very well hunting.





Jeffrey Towler said:


> I agree. I think that lab would make a wonderful Pet.


I thought that dog was pretty nice looking, very young so it still had some filling out to do, but I bet it would be a very nice working dog...


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Go to the 3:35 minute mark and take a look a "many Champions she has had success with in the show ring", quite a few look like the pigs than won BOB at Westminster, it discredits some of her talk about the dogs being able to perform.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

mngundog said:


> Go to the 3:35 minute mark and take a look a "many Champions she has had success with in the show ring", quite a few look like the pigs than won BOB at Westminster, it discredits some of her talk about the dogs being able to perform.


I am thinking that some of these type of labs might do well for the family that likes to hunt the upland bird preserves.


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Glenda,

Thanks for posting the video! And say what you will, I LIKED her hair!

I think people get accustomed to seeing their own dogs and those of their peers. If they have a field Lab that becomes the "look" they get used to and the type they believe is correct. Show Lab owners and breeders have the same issue. 

Those of you who think the subject dog in the video is over-done, too short, too heavy, or just a "pig" aren't used to seeing that type of Lab. Perhaps compared to a tall lean lanky Lab the subject dog looks short and fat, but she's neither IMHO. I have a field bred bitch that's very similar in build to the subject dog. She measures about 22 1/2 inches at the withers and weighs about 60 lbs. She's sound and very well proportioned and can go all day in the field. I'm not talking a hunting preserve with put and take pheasants, chukar, and quail. I'm talking wild pheasants on the fringe of their range in Indiana where we figure how many miles are walked per pheasant bagged instead of how many pheasants per mile.

It's possible for a Lab to conform to the standard and have the talent, drive, and ability to do the job for which they are bred. I'd like to see more breeders from all parts of the Labrador Nation strive to produce Labs that possess ALL of the physical _and_ behavioral traits that define the breed. It ain't easy, but it can be done.

Swack


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## Bill Slutsky (Mar 6, 2013)

Nice Link AND especially nice Hair-do !


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Crufts is this weekend.!

Love her hair.

The dog looks like a short haired Newfoundland. Sorry.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

FOM said:


> I thought that dog was pretty nice looking, very young so it still had some filling out to do, but I bet it would be a very nice working dog...


I second, I would take that dog in a heartbeat. Not overdone, that dog will hunt.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

The photos on her wall seemed much less bulky than the Westminster winner. Had more daylight under them. Even the young dog she was going over was not as short-legged as what we saw at Westminister. The head also seemed more "moderate" with less of the Rottie look than at Westminster.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> The photos on her wall seemed much less bulky than the Westminster winner. Had more daylight under them. Even the young dog she was going over was not as short-legged as what we saw at Westminister. The head also seemed more "moderate" with less of the Rottie look than at Westminster.


I love "Rottie's", but I agree with you, I don't like my labs looking like one.

JT


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

There is a follow up video to the one Glenda posted......






Her own dogs whilst not in hard working condition look OK to me; a couple of months legging it up and down these hills would soon get them into shape. My 'keeper friend Johnny has a black Lab, Duke, that's a dead ringer for the one in the first film, and you'd better believe that he can work a shift.;-)

Eug


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Kennel Clubs and committees within them can print all the standards of a breed they wish ! It is the Judges who decide and determine what 'types' are successful within that standard in competition . So,this judge (much like every other) will have a perception of what the winner should look like (within the standard) but biased towards their own preference (look) and obviously would be the 'type' that 'They' have and/or have had success with.

They may look 'Eye sweet' , but the show judge (and competitor) never relates any attribute of the dog to 'It's Knowledge/Brain/Field ability' ......Just 'Looks !!!
Hey' Cindy Crawford is a good looking woman! But she ain't likely to do much outside other than still look pretty outside .


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Labs use their "Otter Tail" as a rudder............... What a crock.

Instead of theorizing about what traits should work and then selecting for them, they'd be far better served in observing the dogs that actually do the work, in spite of being so tremendously encumbered with non- otterlike tails. 

Perhaps, it's actually the stubby legs, short muzzles, layers of blubber and gigantic (but empty) heads that actually prevent the dogs from doing the work.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> Labs use their "Otter Tail" as a rudder............... What a crock.
> 
> Instead of theorizing about what traits should work and then selecting for them, they'd be far better served in observing the dogs that actually do the work, in spite of being so tremendously encumbered with non- otterlike tails.
> 
> Perhaps, it's actually the stubby legs, short muzzles, layers of blubber and gigantic (but empty) heads that actually prevent the dogs from doing the work.


Very True. My lab Reba wags her tail out of the water while doing retrieves, she sure isn't using it as a rudder.

JT


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Labs use their "Otter Tail" as a rudder............... What a crock.
> 
> Instead of theorizing about what traits should work and then selecting for them, they'd be far better served in observing the dogs that actually do the work, in spite of being so tremendously encumbered with non- otterlike tails.
> 
> Perhaps, it's actually the stubby legs, short muzzles, layers of blubber and gigantic (but empty) heads that actually prevent the dogs from doing the work.


Your not looking at this situation from the correct angle. The people who wrote the standard knew and know what a working retriever is. The % of people who are NOW actively judging and breeding showing is suspect. 

My findings of the people who actually hunt their "show dog" is the minority 49.9 % What may be a surprising # is the % of field trailers that DO NOT or have not hunted, with or with out their dog.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Jeffrey Towler said:


> I love "Rottie's", but I agree with you, I don't like my labs looking like one.
> 
> JT


Jeff, that is the point of "breed type". "Type" is the facet of a dog that tells you immediately what breed of dog it is. If the head says "Rottie", then that head is not true to Lab type. 

The Sandylands prefix was very influential in the development of Labs in the UK. This is one page of their website http://www.sandylands.net/history2.html 

I think that Sandylands Tandy and Sandylands Truth look like they could work quite well in the field. Their heads are neither "weak" nor "Rottie". However, these dogs were from the 50s and 60s. By the 80s and 90s change had already begun.

http://www.shamrockacreskennels.com/history02.html Shamrock Acres began in the US in 1957, and their "history" pages on their website also show the progression of the breed in the US. Notice how the early Shamrock Acres breedings combined proven FT lines.

The Shamrock Acres website mentions the Whygin prefix, but I could not find any images of Whygin dogs. However, the Whygin prefix is probably most known to field trialers for NFC Whygin Cork's Coot. I found a photo of him (with pedigree)
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/labrador_retriever/dog.html?id=1487515-whygin-corks-coot


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Jeff, that is the point of "breed type". "Type" is the facet of a dog that tells you immediately what breed of dog it is. If the head says "Rottie", then that head is not true to Lab type.
> 
> The Sandylands prefix was very influential in the development of Labs in the UK. This is one page of their website http://www.sandylands.net/history2.html
> 
> ...


First off great Post. Lots of info here. Gwen with her Labs photo, perfect. Those are working labs, thats what the show crowd needs to start breeding asap.If they want to start winning at westminster there is the blue print. NFC Whygin Cork's Coot Photo is very cool.

Thank you for info.
JT


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

Hi Eug: Thank you for sending a follow up video. I enjoyed watching it. Obviously, her Labs have the lovely Labrador temperament. The owner has a very pretty face, it is just her hair that doesn't quite meet the standard. It is neither yellow, black or chocolate in color. Of course, in the eyes of certain judges, it may be fine!

My husband is from Britain. He did an internship in Cornwall, but most of his time was spent at Queen's Square. My family is from Scotland and used to cross the border to pillage and ravage iin days of yore. I would love to see your IGL Championships.

Glenda


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Found this photo of bench CH Shamrock Acres Light Brigade. 
http://www.kerrybrook.com/images/legends/ch_shamrock_acres_light_brigade.jpg
I remember seeing his photo frequently in ads for Shamrock Acres in RFTN back in the early-to-mid-70s. If I wasn't addicted to Goldens ...

And this one of Whygin Poppit
http://www.kerrybrook.com/images/legends/ch_whygin_poppit_1959.jpg

Then in the late 70s there was Dual CH Warpath Macho
http://www.kerrybrook.com/images/legends/dual_ch_afc_warpath_macho_dick_cooper_handler.jpg
He was not often used since he was from show lineage, so did not appeal to FT people & show people, I guess, felt he wasn't enough for their goals. I met him when he was young running sanc trials (remember those?) at the Q level. Such a very nice dog. At that time he was still owner-trained (I believe). He later went to a pro to finish his FC; then finished his CH, just before he was purchased by Carol Lilenfeld.

Here is an Eng Sh CH from the 1930s
http://www.kerrybrook.com/images/legends/eng_am_ch_banchory_trump_of_wingan.jpg
I wonder why we developed felt such a need to change the appearance of these dogs?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Pretty cool Page I haven't seen many pictures of Dual CH's let alone this many together, might need a translator though 
http://www.joyful-labs.de/html/dual_champions.html


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Found this photo of bench CH Shamrock Acres Light Brigade.
> http://www.kerrybrook.com/images/legends/ch_shamrock_acres_light_brigade.jpg
> I remember seeing his photo frequently in ads for Shamrock Acres in RFTN back in the early-to-mid-70s. If I wasn't addicted to Goldens ...
> 
> ...


Brigade is a very nice looking Lab


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Here's a question: Regarding the otter tail. An otter tail is fairly wide at the base and tapers to a point, yet in the majority of the heavy show dogs, it is the same width from base to tip and blunted like a club at the tip with the hair "floofed" out to make it round. Do judges not know this is wrong? And why are the dogs "groomed" like this?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Kennel Clubs and committees within them can print all the standards of a breed they wish ! It is the Judges who decide and determine what 'types' are successful within that standard in competition . So,this judge (much like every other) will have a perception of what the winner should look like (within the standard) but biased towards their own preference (look) and obviously would be the 'type' that 'They' have and/or have had success with.
> 
> They may look 'Eye sweet' , but the show judge (and competitor) never relates any attribute of the dog to 'It's Knowledge/Brain/Field ability' ......Just 'Looks !!!
> *Hey' Cindy Crawford is a good looking woman! But she ain't likely to do much outside other than still look pretty outside *.


Uh... Is there a problem with that;-)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gYQbQmtA6IU


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

huntinman said:


> Uh... Is there a problem with that;-)
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gYQbQmtA6IU


They should make me a Judge. In a very short time, Labs would at least look fit and trim in the sporting group. Maybe, they would win BIS.


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

The entire sport( LOL )of dog shows is a corrupt process. One person, the judge, should not decide which dog is better. Who is to say politics do not enter into decisions. 

I understand the animus towards those who do not keep their dogs at healthy weights and condition. Myself I consider that cruel. To keep a sporting breed kenneled and not let run or take them into a field or for a swim baffles my understanding of dog breeding. 

I blame the Field breeders as much as the show breeders also. While the Field bred lab today can run fast, his muzzle is snippy, his legs too long , and he has lost the otter tail. He looks more like a greyhound. 

Some show breeders are breeding too much for bone and a typy look. The extremes in both the field and show Labradors is something old timers like me find unpleasant. 

If one looks at one of America's most respected Labrador breeders, the Dickendall web site shows how much the dog they bred in the sixties has changed from the dogs they breed today. This is one breeder whose dogs have been used over and over the last forty years. They are structurally sound and hunt well. They need to be worked is all. Myself I've hunted with one for 7 seasons and he can go all day. He goes hiking with me up some very big mountains with the ease of a bear or mountain lion. He does not break down. He is also a well behaved and gentle dog. I would not trade him for any Labrador on earth today. 

First Champ ... http://www.dickendall.com/flip.html

Master Hunter today .. http://www.dickendall.com/decker.html


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Jeff, that is the point of "breed type". "Type" is the facet of a dog that tells you immediately what breed of dog it is. If the head says "Rottie", then that head is not true to Lab type.
> 
> The Sandylands prefix was very influential in the development of Labs in the UK. This is one page of their website http://www.sandylands.net/history2.html
> 
> ...


Gerry,

Good post! I'd didn't know you spoke "Labrador"? Good to know you appreciate the history.

I thought the Sandylands history showed a progression from that of an athletic working Lab in the earliest photos toward a dog with too short a muzzle, with too much "substance", lacking the scope to perform as the breed was intended. I've always liked the look of British Justice as a pattern for Labrador breed type. http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=2823

It seems things started to go too far in terms of shortened muzzles, shorter legs, and heavier bodies somewhere around Reanacre Mallardhurn Thunder http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=3521 or his son Sandylands Mark http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=3712.

The links to dickendall provided by .44 Magnum show the changes in that kennel from the working type Lab they began with (from Sandylands blood) to the ubiquitous Dickendall's Arnold.

These examples show what happens when breeders strive for "more". More head, more coat, and more substance. The exaggeration of "type" becomes something that was not what the Labrador retriever ever was or should have become.

Here's a couple of field Labs for comparison. First, take a look at Air Express http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=298. I don't think this photo does him justice, but it's hard to find good profile pictures of field Labs. Another decent looking field Lab was Ray's Rascal http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=202. I really like the write up for Rascal. Always a hunting dog, easy to train, honest, and eager to please. That's what every Lab should be regardless their appearance.

I must confess I had a hard time finding a really good picture of a really bad looking field Lab. I know there are some out there that miss the mark a mile physically, when it comes to my image of the ideal Lab. It seems I'm more familiar with the names of field Labs from the 70's and 80's than with those of today. It must go with my graying muzzle!

Swack


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

LOL!, Swack, yes I speak a little Labrador  My first field training partner had a daughter of Trumarc's Raider when I had a Ki son. Later she bred to Air Express, and also to Westwind's Supernova Chief; the latter breeding produced AFC Back Acher's Son of a Witch. Kendall Herr, of Dickendall Labs, also lived in our area many years ago, so I saw several of her dogs back then as well. both in the ring and at hunt tests. I got familiar with the Lab pedigrees of that day of necessity  However, my knowledge is "sketchy" when it comes to more recent dogs.

.44 Magnum, I looked at the photos. I noticed that the 1st CH came from Sandylands, and I must say that I much prefer his type to the more recent Decker. Do you have a photo of your dog to which of these two he more resembles?

Yes, Magnum, there is a political aspect to conformation judging. I believe it happens in almost every venue of dog sport since judging is a subjective thing, but even more subjective in the conformation ring.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

.44 magnum said:


> The entire sport( LOL )of dog shows is a corrupt process. One person, the judge, should not decide which dog is better. Who is to say politics do not enter into decisions.
> 
> I understand the animus towards those who do not keep their dogs at healthy weights and condition. Myself I consider that cruel. To keep a sporting breed kenneled and not let run or take them into a field or for a swim baffles my understanding of dog breeding.
> 
> ...



This is Reba, I don't find her Muzzle snippy


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Jeffrey Towler said:


> This is Reba, I don't find her Muzzle snippy


 IMO. She is beautiful.... and not snippy . Remember there are good and bad breeders on both sides of the fence today... 

Females will have a different look in the muzzle then males in both show and field Labradors. 

Generalizations are wrong, sorry if I came off that way. Do I wish we could have a Labrador we could agree on in it's looks. Yes. I like the first Champ from Dickendall in 1970 more then their Master hunter of today. 

Bottom line every Labrador has great qualities. Just remember that some Show breeders have reached the title of Master Hunter with their lines. More should try. Not every Labrador from a littler goes on to be best in breed at Westminster, or win the National Amateur Field Trial Championship. 

Is my "Show" bred Lab fat? Many have told me so, but his ribs are easily felt. Pet owners can't do anything about how their dogs look. So some of these threads about Westminster and judging can't be control by non-breeders.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

What kennel name does Linda have?
I loved her interviews, particularly the second one. All those labs out at once, I loved it. Her dogs- none looked fat or overdone that I could see. And that chocolate,what a love he was! Great -thanks for sharing!


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Thank you 44


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Billie,

Linda Major is Linjor Labradors. You can find them here: http://www.linjorretrievers.co.uk/

Sue


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Thanks I will check them out. I respect her knowledge and love for the breed...


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

44, I would not say that your dog is "fat", but probably is carrying a few pounds more than he actually needs ... but he's a far cry from what I could see of the winner at Westminster, who seemed like he could drop close to 10#. There just seemed to be too much roll in the front of the dog at Westminster ... not that my opinion on that is worth much


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Looking at her website, I see that her dogs look fit and conditioned nicely. A pleasant change!


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

This is one of Ms Majors that went to Russia and won a few silver pots .... just from the looks as opposed to working ability and temperament which we are not in a position to judge, I don't think there's much to complain about at all. If he's got some hunting talent you could make a very nice wildfowling dog out of him; good solid old boy. I'd have him.









Eug


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Disagree with you on that type, Eug, though as you know - and saw reiterated at the weekend, porcine and preposterous appearance for "sporting breeds" ain't the exclusive province of the US of A, either.

MG


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## KPR's Texas Retrievers (May 2, 2004)

I’m no expert regarding the breed but it does seem that the size and weight of the Lab shown in Linda’s video, in the pictures in this tread and those which I have seen on TV at Westminster would have a hard time in a Pheasant or Quail hunt let alone trying to do some of the field trail work that is done in today’s trials. 
The dogs that I have seen running hunt test or field trails over the last 12 years or so do look like what my perception of a working Labrador should be. The muzzle and forehead are about the same length. They have a strong chest that is wide enough between the front legs to provide great balance not only on uneven terrain but in rough water. Their back is straight and strong from front shoulder to back hips. Their rear legs are strong and powerful with good contour from hip joint to elbow. They are wide between the rear legs to add to their balance. Their legs are not long and wirey as a greyhound but of a good length to allow them to cover a lot of ground quickly and completely. Their webbed feet are of a good size for paddling in water. Their tail is very similar to an otter though not as wide and it does taper to a point rather than being blunt as pictured in Colonel Blimp’s picture. If the Lab is trained in a lot of water and LEARNS to use it tail to help propel and guide it through the water it has an advantage. Some do and some do not. Some carry the tip of their tail high and out of the water but when you seen it waging that does not mean that the base of the tail and the first couple of inches are not helping when it goes back and forth to propel and guide it through the water. My ideal of a good weight for a hard working Lab is males to be between 70 to 80 pounds and females between 65 and 75 pounds and that all depends on their bone structure. I think this weight allows them to handle tough terrain on a retrieve and still retain their strength. On a big 400 yard+ retriever that requires a lot of strength, if they are to heavy or to light, I think it takes a lot out of them and when they come back tired and panting like crazy it would be hard for me to send them for another hard retrieve even if it were only 150 yards or so. Sometimes I think we ask to much of them and when we have done it over and over even though they may love it, it cannot help but shorten their life just a little each time we do. When we work so hard to get them to their highest level of ability don’t we want to keep them with us as long as we can? 

I have noticed that most and I repeat MOST not all of the show dogs that have attained field trail or hunt test title only have lower level hunt test titles and very few have a field trail title. You would think that after getting all of the show titles you would want them to attain as many actual working titles as possible. Why is that?

It is not easy to find what prefix and suffix titles are for dogs not in AKC or UKC. 
Finding what foreign titles mean is difficult. I tried to see what titles some of the dogs shown in Linda’s web site had. Maybe I’m wrong but from what I could tell from Linda’s video and from her web site it looks like all of her ribbons were show titles and all that she judges is show. For someone who is such an expert on a breed you would think that she would want to be able to understand what the dog was originally breed for and that was helping fishermen with their fishing and then changed into hard working water fowl retrievers. That means they have to be able to work hard and to me that is hard to do when they are overweight. From seeing pictures of champion show Labs and seeing a Lab run around a show ring there is no way you can tell if a dog is in good physical shape. That can only be done by doing the work it was breed for and if you cannot perform in that venue is that really a Labrador?


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## Glenda Brown (Jun 23, 2003)

To show we are not alone re our concerns on Labs we see in conformation (obviously not all of them) compared to we what we see working, the following is from Sweden:

In 2008 the Svenska Kennelklubben (Swedish Kennel Club} produced the following publication: 


Special Breed Specific Instructions (BSI)
Regarding exaggerations in pedigree dogs





The task of a dog show judge is to preserve the characteristics of each breed
within the approved breed standard. This must never be done at the expense
of soundness or through exaggerations in conformation. It is the responsibility
of the judge to be acquainted with the breed standard as well as health issues
which exaggerations can cause. A judge’s main task is to judge and
evaluate dogs outlined in the breed standards and to see the dogs as a result
of previous generations of breeding. A judge must pay particular attention to
tendencies to exaggerations which can have a negative effect on the health of
individual dogs. It is important that tendencies to exaggerations are noted
before they are allowed to give rise to unsoundness. These instructions are a result of an
inventory made possible through extensive collaboration between dog show
judges, breed clubs, other dog clubs and veterinary surgeons.
The views and facts contained in this document are a result of available statistics
on dogs’ health for individual breeds. The process was initiated by a meeting
between ten Scandinavian all-breed judges followed by correspondence
with the breed clubs culminating in a judges’ conference for all Swedish dog
show judges. The survey has resulted in the current document in which 47 out of approximately
300 recognised F.C.I breeds have been mentioned specifically with a view
to improve their health. 


Breeds which require
URGENT ATTENTION:
Bulldog, Neapolitan Mastiff, Shar-Pei, Chow-Chow, Basset Hound, French Bulldog, Pekingese. 


Breeds which require
INCREASED ATTENTION:
Dogue de Bordeaux, Mastiff, St Bernard Dog, Bull Terrier/ Miniature Bull Terrier, Yorkshire
Terrier, Bloodhound, Clumber Spaniel, Boston Terrier, Chihuahua (Long-haired and Smooth-haired),
Japanese Chin, King Charles Spaniel, Pug Dog.


Breeds which require
ATTENTION:
Collie (Rough-haired and Smooth-haired), German Shepherd Dog, Shetland Sheepdog,
Welsh Corgi Cardigan, Welsh Corgi Pembroke, German Boxer, Bullmastiff, Great Dane, Norwich
Terrier, Skye Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, West Highland White Terrier, German Spitz/
Pomeranian, Artesian-Norman Basset, Italian Pointing Dog, Italian Wire-haired Pointing Dog,
American Cocker Spaniel, English Cocker Spaniel, English Springer Spaniel, Labrador Retriever,
Sussex Spaniel, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Chinese Crested Dog, Griffons, Shih-Tzu, Standard
Poodle, Borzoi, Irish Wolfhound.


Prior to each judging appointment, it is the responsibility of the judge to
familiarise himself/herself with these specific instructions for the breed he/
she has been invited to judge. A continuous follow-up of the development
of the health of the breeds listed herein will be carried out, and also regular updates.


APPLICATION:
It is of utmost importance that each judge continues to judge positively and,
as previously, selects winners of correct type and overall quality. The critique
must be written in a positive form, but it is important to be precise and open
about relevant health matters if this has affected the evaluation and/or placing
of the dog. As previously, the judge must evaluate what he sees and deviations must be judged
on its degree of imperfection, and no faults are linked to a certain award.
This list must not be seen as an added list of disqualifying faults in breeds whose
standards contain disqualifications! Exaggerations in conformation and
faults which have an affect on the dog’s health are more serious than cosmetic
failings. Judges should always give 0 prize to dogs with manifest abnormalities and defects.
Frequently existing faults, not linked with health concerns and exaggeration
of breed points in individual breeds, have not been listed here routinely, but
must also be noted when judging. Judges are requested to consider health
aspects to a higher degree than previously,
particularly when awarding CK (certificate quality) or not.


REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL DOGS:
Breathing
All dogs should be able to breathe normally, also when moving.
Eyes
All dogs should have clear eyes without any sign of discomfort.
Skin
All dogs should have healthy skin without any sign of discomfort.
Coat
The coat should not be so extensive as to impede movement.
Movement
All dogs should be able to move naturally without visible effort or pain.
Temperament
All dogs should have good temperament suitable for life in present society. Breed
specific behaviour must be noted and allowed, but excessive shyness or sharpness
of temperament is not desirable. Aggressive dogs and dogs showing signs of panic and/or fear should always be
awarded 0 prize.


The Labrador Retriever was listed as a "Breed which requires ATTENTION"
Existing faults in this breed are:
• obesity/overweight.
• lameness and incorrect movement.
Particular attention must therefore be paid to correct movement. Obesity/overweight
must not be confused with substance.

Glenda


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## KPR's Texas Retrievers (May 2, 2004)

I found something that seems to stress the importance of some kind of a change in either the way a Labrador is judged in show or changing the standard in which they are judged. 

America’s favorite dog for the many years now, Labrador retrievers have done abysmally at Westminster, placing only 10 times. A Sporting Group breed, Labs was recognized by the AKC in 1917. That’s nearly 100 years in which to accomplish something.

•	Second Place (4 times): 1933, 1934, 1939, 1978
•	Fourth Place (6 times): 1964, 1974, 1986, 2003, 2009, 2010

On the international scene the Lab has won best in show at CRUFTS 3 times however the last time was in 1937. Has time pasted them by or are we doing something wrong in our breeding aspects. 

First Place 1932, 1933 and 1937 

This does not paint a very favorable picture for show breeders. My question to them is what can be done to improve the breed? In the AKC performance competitions both hunt test and field trails the Labrador has dominated the working field.


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## .44 magnum (Feb 20, 2014)

Colonel Blimp said:


> This is one of Ms Majors that went to Russia and won a few silver pots .... just from the looks as opposed to working ability and temperament which we are not in a position to judge, I don't think there's much to complain about at all. If he's got some hunting talent you could make a very nice wildfowling dog out of him; good solid old boy. I'd have him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great looking Labrador !


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## Swack (Nov 23, 2011)

KPR's Texas Retrievers said:


> I found something that seems to stress the importance of some kind of a change in either the way a Labrador is judged in show or changing the standard in which they are judged.
> 
> America’s favorite dog for the many years now, Labrador retrievers have done abysmally at Westminster, placing only 10 times. A Sporting Group breed, Labs was recognized by the AKC in 1917. That’s nearly 100 years in which to accomplish something.
> 
> ...


KPR,

I wouldn't gauge the value of the Lab on his record at big dog shows. He's too "normal" to be a spectacular show dog, in spite of how hard the show breeder try to goof him up! No flowing coat to get wowed about, no quirky smushed in face (yet), he's not huge, he's not tiny; he just looks too ordinary.

You ask what can be done to improve the breed? Get back to what he was before the show fancy started exaggerating his traits to make him more "typey" and before the field breeders began to exaggerate size and speed. The standard describes a sound working retriever. If you want to stand out in the show ring or turn heads at the hunt test, breed a good looking, solidly built, honest Labrador. Regardless of the judge's opinion, you will have done the breed a favor.

Swack


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Swack, I'm not sure flowing coat has a lot to do with it. I don't know if a Golden Retriever has ever been BIS at Crufts, but I'm not sure a Golden has ever been BIS at Westminister. If he has been, it was, I think, Cragmount's Hi Lo http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=455 You'll note he was born in 1962. They have only rarely gotten to Group I at Westminister.

The trait that makes them popular numerically in registrations has a lot to do with their temperaments for family needs and intelligence for training, not just field training, but also obedience, etc.


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

So what about international titles? Are they the best of the best?








INT. WLD. ENG. FR. AM. CAN CH. SANDYLANDS RIP VAN WINKLE

April 23, 1980 - May 1993

this is what I like in a lab


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## KPR's Texas Retrievers (May 2, 2004)

In the past 12 years I have only done one breeding and it was based on trying to breed puppies that could perform as a great hunting dog, run a quality hunt test or perform at the highest level of field trail work as possible. The dam was a Field Champion, Amateur Field Champion and Master Hunter. The sire also was a Field Champion and Amateur Field Champion. As many know not all puppies get the same chance to succeed. The one litter produced one excellent male. FC AFC KPR’s Wet Willie http://www.fc-afc-willie-at-stud.com/. Like his mother and father Willie is a Champion and I think they all represent what a Labrador should be.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I think It's Important that you know 'WHY' we have Dog Shows !
You may want to move the coffee away from the keyboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx0lgwUFMJk&feature=youtu.be


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

And here you were two days ago with no use for one liners, Robt. - not cricket, sez ye, or caber toss. Ho ye! Isn't a *YouTube url* a "one-liner?" A one-liner followed by lots of zingers pointing out the painful truth about dog shows.

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> And here you were two days ago with no use for one liners, Robt.
> 
> MG


I never have two days the same MG


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## Trifecta (May 17, 2013)

Just to throw this out there... there are 47 different breeds that have won westminster over 106 total awards. There are 178 recognized AKC breeds.

My point being... there are lots of breeds that have never won westminster. Most of the breeds that have won are "coated" and fairly "flashy". Irrespective of where the average bench dog is in meeting the breed standard, I think its very unlikely that a Lab will win westminster... the plain dog just doesn't do well on a televised show .

A good example of this would be the Chessie. Whether you love them or not, there are still some DC's out there and less division within the breed, which would mean to me that those dogs probably fit their standard very well from both a physical appearance and performance aspect. They have also never won westminster. "Plain brown (sedge? deadgrass?) wrapper syndrome".


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Trifecta said:


> My point being... there are lots of breeds that have never won westminster. Most of the breeds that have won are "coated" and fairly "flashy". Irrespective of where the average bench dog is in meeting the breed standard, I think its very unlikely that a Lab will win westminster... the plain dog just doesn't do well on a televised show .


That's a pretty "good" Awbarn inferiority mindset. But being at Auburn, you also might want to ask yourself, WWDMDD? (What Would Dottie Metcalf's Dough Do?) for Labs. Like, you know, Dottie's dollars working to make them better at working, _*not*_ showing.

MG


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## Trifecta (May 17, 2013)

My point was merely that saying that the breed doesn't win at westminster is not a very good measure of how good the breed fits the standard, and that there are dogs that by anyone's logic (ie, a DC chessie for example) should at least in theory be awesome examples of their breed standard, yet don't win.

Not withstanding, I'm not trying to argue that the dog wasn't obese or that didn't have any leg. That dead horse has long been beaten. 

Its merely that people keep bringing up the fact that labs don't win major dog shows, many of whom have never been to a dog show, and have no clue what dog shows are actually like, and no perspective on these things.


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