# Seasoned/Senior Hunt Test?



## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

I am new to the hunt test world and have only ran my dog in 2 started test for line experience which he blew out of the water. Someone please tell me in great detail what I will have to be prepared for in a seasoned and/or senior hunt test... Line manners? Cheating the bank? Honoring? Please tell me anything and everything that I will need to prepare for as well as all of the things that I will not be able to do that will get my dog and I failed. All the way from walk ups to the time I take him off the line. Little background info. He has been through the basics, 3HC, FTP, TT, Pattern blinds, Swim by. He is currently running blinds with marks thrown in every now and then when I have help. We have worked a little on diversions but not too heavily. Just a little toss of a bumper from me when he's on the way back with a bumper. He is not great on blinds because once hunting season started we don't train as much but he will get to them one way or another. Sometimes he steps on them, sometimes he doesn't. By spring test season he will be good/great on blinds from what I can foresee.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Best thing you can do from the start is download the rule books from both HRC and AKC. lots of information on what you can and cannot do. also tells you want the judges need to look at. What part of the country or you from. Also join a local club and talk to members that have run all levels of hunt test.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

*Seasoned test:*
Land double with blind outside of marks. You will shoot in the direction before running the blind.
Water double with blind outside of marks. You will shoot same as land blind.
Walk up or walkout. You can say 'SIT' or whistle when bird is thrown.
You are not penalized for cheating, etc. 
You are allowed 1 controlled break
You will have a diversion on either land or water. Usually thrown significantly off the line the dog is coming in on. 
No honor
Your dog can be on lead all the way to the line/bucket. Take lead off, have him sit, load your gun, and blow duck call to start test.
You may talk to your dog while at the line. You will likely be marked down some for trainability if you continually say 'Sit' and dog is rowdy.

*Senior test:*
Land double with blind. Diversion shot in the field to setup the blind when dog is returning from last mark or while walking to the line(if blind is run before marks)
Water double with blind. Diversion shot in the field to setup the blind when dog is returning from last mark or while walking to the line
Walk up or walkout. You can say 'SIT' or whistle when bird is thrown.
You are not penalized for cheating, etc. 
Controlled breaks are at judges' discretion. You 'may' get called back, but I wouldn't count on it.
No diversion bird. Just diversion shot for the blinds.
Dog must honor on 1 of the series
Your dog must come off lead somewhere between holding blind and line. Judges usually have orange tape out where they want the dog off lead and you are under judgement.
Once you call for the birds, you may not say anything to the dog until the judge calls your number or says 'dog'. Any verbal communication is considered a 'controlled break'.

Typically(at least in the tests I have run), an AKC senior test is usually significantly tougher than an HRC seasoned test. Marks/blinds are longer with more factors. An AKC senior test is usually more in line with an HRC finished test, but with 2 marks instead of 3. Currently, the young dog I'm training is running HRC finished and AKC senior. He's doing master and Q level work in training. Just a word of advice, you want your dog running well beyond the level they are being tested at in training before you compete. If not, you are asking for failure. 

Here's a link that compares the requirements for all 3 levels of testing in both HRC and AKC: https://crosscreekkennel.com/htexp.htm

Hope this helps.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

bamajeff said:


> *Seasoned test:*
> Land double with blind outside of marks. You will shoot in the direction before running the blind.
> Water double with blind outside of marks. You will shoot same as land blind.
> Walk up or walkout. You can say 'SIT' or whistle when bird is thrown.
> ...


Great rundown! This is exactly what I was looking for. They do not detail it like this in either of the rule books which I have ready a couple of times each. I also already set my mind to training a level above before running the test I'm entering. Good stuff thanks!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

YouTube... tons of videos


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Search RTF


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## KeystoneDekeChesapeake (Dec 2, 2016)

BamaJeff, I felt like I was cheating reading your breakdown.  Appreciate the insight immensely.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

KeystoneDekeChesapeake said:


> BamaJeff, I felt like I was cheating reading your breakdown.  Appreciate the insight immensely.


No problem. Some of those items, I learned the 'hard way' . Glad it was helpful. One other item that I didn't spell out. You can usually handle on 1 mark. If you have to handle on any more, you are very likely out. Also FYI, you are allowed to handle on the walk up and diversion in an HRC test. That is not considered a test of marking, it's considered a test of steadiness/control respectively. In AKC senior test, the walkup is usually the first mark in either land/water test and is part of the marking test. You can still say 'SIT' or blow sit whistle, but a handle would count against you.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

bamajeff said:


> No problem. Some of those items, I learned the 'hard way' . Glad it was helpful. One other item that I didn't spell out. You can usually handle on 1 mark. If you have to handle on any more, you are very likely out. Also FYI, you are allowed to handle on the diversion mark. That is not considered a test of marking, it's considered a test of steadiness


Great to know! Myself as well as others on this forum greatly appreciate the legwork involved in providing the detailed info you did.


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## gaustin (Apr 7, 2013)

Senior.....Can be a live flier too at one of the series


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

gaustin said:


> Senior.....Can be a live flier too at one of the series


Yes, I've never ran an AKC test that didn't have a flier in at least 1 of the series.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

bamajeff said:


> Yes, I've never ran an AKC test that didn't have a flier in at least 1 of the series.


Who shoots the flier? Handler or someone else?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

themaninblack3 said:


> Who shoots the flier? Handler or someone else?


In AKC, all shots/simulated shots are made in the field. The handler holds a non-working/fake gun and the dog swings with the gun. In AKC, there is typically sound(duck call) from each gun station before the shot to get the dog's attention, but in HRC there is no sound. The dog must mark off the gun barrel.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

bamajeff said:


> In AKC, all shots/simulated shots are made in the field. The handler holds a non-working/fake gun and the dog swings with the gun. In AKC, there is typically sound(duck call) from each gun station before the shot to get the dog's attention, but in HRC there is no sound. The dog must mark off the gun barrel.


Okay. This is some very helpful info especially for a HT newbie like myself.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> No problem. Some of those items, I learned the 'hard way' . Glad it was helpful. One other item that I didn't spell out. You can usually handle on 1 mark. If you have to handle on any more, you are very likely out. Also FYI, you are allowed to handle on the diversion mark in an HRC test. That is not considered a test of marking, it's considered a test of steadiness. In AKC senior test, the walkup is usually the first mark in either land/water test and is part of the marking test. You can still say 'SIT' or blow sit whistle, but a handle would count against you.


Isn't the diversion a test of CONTROL? How could it test steadiness when sometimes the dog is running or swimming?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Thomas D said:


> Isn't the diversion a test of CONTROL? How could it test steadiness when sometimes the dog is running or swimming?


You are correct. I was thinking about the walk up and typed diversion. I modified my post to cover both scenarios. Thanks for pointing out the confusion.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

https://youtu.be/ZobZWPMOUhU

Here is a senior test I ran a few years ago. Dog did a nice job. My handling was way too fast. Funny I forgot to bring the gun to the line. I train for FT's but the owner wanted a senior title on the dog so I ran her in a few over the summer.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

Jerry S. said:


> https://youtu.be/ZobZWPMOUhU
> 
> Here is a senior test I ran a few years ago. Dog did a nice job. My handling was way too fast. Funny I forgot to bring the gun to the line. I train for FT's but the owner wanted a senior title on the dog so I ran her in a few over the summer.


Good stuff! Thanks


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

senior tests are much harder I have ran blinds where the line to the blind was 20 feet to a flyer station that sucked the dog that way and made it hard to get them off to continue to pick it up . also don't forget don't talk to your dog after calling for the bird. also I wouldn't advise running 2 tests the same week end I did it wit my young dog and he was so amped up the 2nd day when I got him out of the kennel the 2nd day his eyes told me we were toast and we were he was nuts and went out on the 1st series. it took a long time to finish his title. that was after going 4 x4 in junior . my point is don't get too greedy and take your time


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

bamajeff said:


> No problem. Some of those items, I learned the 'hard way' . Glad it was helpful. One other item that I didn't spell out. You can usually handle on 1 mark. If you have to handle on any more, you are very likely out. Also FYI, you are allowed to handle on the walk up and diversion in an HRC test. That is not considered a test of marking, it's considered a test of steadiness/control respectively. In AKC senior test, the walkup is usually the first mark in either land/water test and is part of the marking test. You can still say 'SIT' or blow sit whistle, but a handle would count against you.


the walk up is a mark . The Diversion is not. SO best if you do not handle if possible on a walk up. The bird is right in front of you if the dog is walking at heal as it should be. This is for both HRC and AKC. Most of the time in Senior, the walk up will be part of the double marks.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

pat addis said:


> senior tests are much harder I have ran blinds where the line to the blind was 20 feet to a flyer station that sucked the dog that way and made it hard to get them off to continue to pick it up . also don't forget don't talk to your dog after calling for the bird. also I wouldn't advise running 2 tests the same week end I did it wit my young dog and he was so amped up the 2nd day when I got him out of the kennel the 2nd day his eyes told me we were toast and we were he was nuts and went out on the 1st series. it took a long time to finish his title. that was after going 4 x4 in junior . my point is don't get too greedy and take your time


After the bird is called for are you allowed to snap your fingers or make any kind of non intimidating gestures as to keep the dog from breaking? Obviously intimidating gestures are automatic failure. In many judge's opinions is snapping your fingers considered an intimidating gesture...?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Snapping your fingers as the marks go down will be noticed and noted. Personally, I wouldn't call it a controlled break but the scores would reflect poor trainability. Would warn the handler and expect better in the second series.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

fishduck said:


> Snapping your fingers as the marks go down will be noticed and noted. Personally, I wouldn't call it a controlled break but the scores would reflect poor trainability. Would warn the handler and expect better in the second series.


Hes pretty solid on the line but you know how some dogs will do when they dont have their collar on and are in an environment like that. Good to know.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

It would be wise of you to have your dog be doing Finished/Master work in training before entering a Seasoned/Senior test. Just saying of course.


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

IN Senior most judges will not allow you to snap your fingers when birds are flying. You are not to talk to the dog or make any noise while birds are in the air, why would you be allowed to snap your fingers. Season is a different thing. You can talk to your dog the entire time.


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## Repaupo (Apr 28, 2005)

Didn't see this mention, sorry if I missed it....

I think it would be a good idea to attend a couple of tests both AKC & UKC as an observer, reading the rules is good but see them performed might be helpful too.

Alan


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

Karen Klotthor said:


> IN Senior most judges will not allow you to snap your fingers when birds are flying. You are not to talk to the dog or make any noise while birds are in the air, why would you be allowed to snap your fingers. Season is a different thing. You can talk to your dog the entire time.


I didnt know the ends and outs of senior tests thats why i was asking. Good to know. Ill just train as best i can to keep him rock solid on the line.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

Repaupo said:


> Didn't see this mention, sorry if I missed it....
> 
> I think it would be a good idea to attend a couple of tests both AKC & UKC as an observer, reading the rules is good but see them performed might be helpful too.
> 
> Alan


Thats a great idea. Ive been to seasoned but never senior. I havent been able to stay long enough either to get a good knowledge on seasoned for that matter. I will attend a few before running for sure


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

That is the best you can do. BUT remember they are dogs, so the rock solid dog in training can turn into a nut case at a hunt test. The smells, sounds and environment will amp them up. If you can train in a group would be the best at least several times prior to entering a test.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

Karen Klotthor said:


> That is the best you can do. BUT remember they are dogs, so the rock solid dog in training can turn into a nut case at a hunt test. The smells, sounds and environment will amp them up. If you can train in a group would be the best at least several times prior to entering a test.


I wish i had a group to train with but unfortunately i work out of town a lot. So training alone it normally is for me.


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## brewbetter (Sep 15, 2015)

I ran 6 senior tests and every one had a live flyer. I think you can count on it. Every time the live flyer was the go bird in senior. I noticed in the Youtube Master videos the live flyer was sometimes the 2ed bird. That looked tough....


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## 2CHESSIES (Mar 17, 2011)

Both Seasoned and Senior will use decoys, sometimes ALOT of them, depends on the judge. Make sure your dog is used to them. Also if you can train w/a group at least once before the test, that will help as well. Good luck and have fun!


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

2CHESSIES said:


> Both Seasoned and Senior will use decoys, sometimes ALOT of them, depends on the judge. Make sure your dog is used to them. Also if you can train w/a group at least once before the test, that will help as well. Good luck and have fun!


He hunts a lot so he is definitely used to decoys.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

A RTF member composed a quick and dirty chart of all the events and the elements of each. You can find it at ... https://www.grca.org/events/field-events-field-training/hunting-tests/2951-2/


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## Gregg0211 (Feb 11, 2015)

Yep, what he said.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I've seen marks longer than 100 yds in AKC senior test and well longer in AKC master


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

"Not normally to exceed"


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I'd say in the overwhelminng majority of the master tests I've run there's been marks(at least 1) > 100 yds.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Good for you. But, OP was asking about SH/Seas


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

To those complaining about seeing marks longer than 100 yards in Master, Per AKC retriever HT regulations: "Test distances on land and water in Master level tests should not normally exceed *150* yards."


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I wasn't complaining. I was just noting what I had seen vs. what was on the chart. I personally prefer the longer marks.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

You prob like real short walk ups too


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

My favorite are the HRC water marks that are so close you and your dog get wet


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## gaustin (Apr 7, 2013)

bamajeff said:


> My favorite are the HRC water marks that are so close you and your dog get wet


Had one in every test we ran last season


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

At least 1 live flyer is required in AKC Senior tests. This is usually where you'll be required to honor.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

paul young said:


> At least 1 live flyer is required in AKC Senior tests. This is usually where you'll be required to honor.


live flyer REQUIRED???Really?


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

bamajeff said:


> My favorite are the HRC water marks that are so close you and your dog get wet



As a AA judge at all levels in HRC; I hope those close marks were only at Finished, and not at the lower levels that the OP was interested in!!!!!:2c:


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

themaninblack3 said:


> I wish i had a group to train with but unfortunately i work out of town a lot. So training alone it normally is for me.


There are a great number of RTF members, pros and ams, that are all over Ga. Perhaps a post looking for a training group or experienced mentor would help you out. Before plunking down the entry fee, you should know the standard and the rules. Try to get with someone in person who has been there and done that for real hands on experience. 
MP


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

dorkweed said:


> As a AA judge at all levels in HRC; I hope those close marks were only at Finished, and not at the lower levels that the OP was interested in!!!!!:2c:


Yes, it was in a finished test


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> live flyer REQUIRED???Really?


And soon to be mandantory in JH too, I hear.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Me and my son had a nice wood duck shoot yesterday morning. It reminded me of this thread because it required what I would expect out of a Senior/Seasoned dog. 6 wood ducks killed and picked up (all the law allows for 2 hunters). 4 marks less than 40 yards. All marks could be described as breaking birds, and 2 cripples swatted on the water. One short blind, less than 30 yards and one hunt it up blind in waist high cover. Dog did well.

I felt steadiness was the most important aspect. As a hunter, I have no problem with breaking birds and welcome flyers at every level. Y'all get out and enjoy the fruits of your training!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

fishduck said:


> Me and my son had a nice wood duck shoot yesterday morning. It reminded me of this thread because it required what I would expect out of a Senior/Seasoned dog. 6 wood ducks killed and picked up (all the law allows for 2 hunters). 4 marks less than 40 yards. All marks could be described as breaking birds, and 2 cripples swatted on the water. One short blind, less than 30 yards and one hunt it up blind in waist high cover. Dog did well.
> 
> I felt steadiness was the most important aspect. As a hunter, I have no problem with breaking birds and welcome flyers at every level. Y'all get out and enjoy the fruits of your training!



Seems about right!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Thomas D said:


> And soon to be mandantory in JH too, I hear.


Where in the rules does it mandate that live flyer is required?
I've seen tests where there was no live flyer in master


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Well it's in the book Ch 5 Sect 3. 
Also states that if live ammo is not permitted by law or policy of the land managing organization where the test is held, live flyer rule does not apply.


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## Justin D (Mar 24, 2016)

bamajeff said:


> *Seasoned test:*
> Land double with blind outside of marks. You will shoot in the direction before running the blind.
> Water double with blind outside of marks. You will shoot same as land blind.
> Walk up or walkout. You can say 'SIT' or whistle when bird is thrown.
> ...



I'm curious because my dog passed his SHR and JH last fall and I'm looking to move up to Seasoned and Senior. When you say you're not penalized for cheating, so if the dog handles to the blind or runs to the mark and cheats the bank coming back, you're not penalized for it? I thought that once you get past SHR and JH, cheating the banks is not allowed? I've never run these intermediated test levels so I'm trying to get all the info I can. Thanks.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Justin D said:


> I'm curious because my dog passed his SHR and JH last fall and I'm looking to move up to Seasoned and Senior. When you say you're not penalized for cheating, so if the dog handles to the blind or runs to the mark and cheats the bank coming back, you're not penalized for it? I thought that once you get past SHR and JH, cheating the banks is not allowed? I've never run these intermediate test levels so I'm trying to get all the info I can. Thanks.


You're not penalized for cheating(on marks) in Seasoned and senior. I don't think you're penalized for route on the way back even in finished/master unless you make an issue out of it and dog gives you cast refusal(s). However, I would say that if you're dog is not able to run Finished/Master level water marks(singles) reliably without cheating I would hold off running tests until he is able to do so. You're just setting yourself up for problems down the road if he figures out he can cheat at hunt tests but has to be honest in training. Your dog should be performing in training at the next level(Finished/Master) before you test them at the mid-levels(at least if you want to be pretty sure you will pass).


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## Rhenee Fadling (May 23, 2008)

The addition of handling the gun and dog under judgment in seasoned is new to many handlers, and because "nerves" are sometimes a factor, even experienced hunters can sometimes have issues with the gun at the line. Read the HRC rules, including the HRC Judges/Handlers Seminar Manual from the judges resources tab in the HRC website. Get some poppers and include the gun in your HRC training set-ups and understand gun safety as it pertains to HRC.

Cheating as it pertains to HRC will not DQ your dog, but it will make passing tests a challenge.


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## jollycurl (Mar 4, 2008)

There are several hunts held at Buckeye Retriever Club in Ohio and none of them have live flyers for any of the stakes.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

senior hunt tests are way harder than hrc seasoned, and since you have 2 started passes you might as well do seasoned. you now only need 3 seasoned passes to get a title.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> You're not penalized for cheating(on marks) in Seasoned and senior. .


In Seasoned maybe not. but in SR., if you don't get in the water on the way to the mark nd stay in on a pretty good line to the mark, the odds are that you will be zeroed in perseverance and be out.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Mike Perry said:


> In Seasoned maybe not. but in SR., if you don't get in the water on the way to the mark nd stay in on a pretty good line to the mark, the odds are that you will be zeroed in perseverance and be out.


Ok Mike, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure on Senior.


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## Justin D (Mar 24, 2016)

Mike Perry said:


> bamajeff said:
> 
> 
> > You're not penalized for cheating(on marks) in Seasoned and senior. .
> ...


I'm more concerned with on the return from the mark or blind. My dog will go straight to the mark or blind but as soon as he grabs it, he won't take the same path back. He goes straight for the path of least resistance on the return. Many times that means he'll run the bank on the return, not on the line to the bird, especially in water. That's the part that concerns me is the return portion.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Justin D said:


> I'm more concerned with on the return from the mark or blind. My dog will go straight to the mark or blind but as soon as he grabs it, he won't take the same path back. He goes straight for the path of least resistance on the return. Many times that means he'll run the bank on the return, not on the line to the bird, especially in water. That's the part that concerns me is the return portion.


In training, how do you generally deal with cheating the return? Do you handle? With or without correction? 
I'm curious why you would enter a test before you get that sorted out. If the dog learns that it can cheat the return at a test but not in training, it will come back to haunt you later.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Matt McKenzie said:


> In training, how do you generally deal with cheating the return? Do you handle? With or without correction?
> I'm curious why you would enter a test before you get that sorted out. If the dog learns that it can cheat the return at a test but not in training, it will come back to haunt you later.


Agreed, no way I would test this dog until he was honest in training. Has he been through swim-by or any de-cheat training?


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Justin D said:


> I'm more concerned with on the return from the mark or blind. My dog will go straight to the mark or blind but as soon as he grabs it, he won't take the same path back. He goes straight for the path of least resistance on the return. Many times that means he'll run the bank on the return, not on the line to the bird, especially in water. That's the part that concerns me is the return portion.


Judges very as to how they handle the return..
When I'm judging I don't pay much attention to it if the dog gets the water and on the way out and finds the bird unless he goes way way out of the way I don't judge the return. I also don't believe I've ever made an issue of it when actually hunting, and frequently actually have them bring it back on the cheating route..
Sometimes it's actually better to teach the correct line on the way back then on the way out due to the fact that it's a clear black and white picture. By that I mean sometimes what you think maybe a cheat on the way to the bird may actually be the dog Mismarked the bird. Where is on the return it's very clear what the true line is if you're standing at the line


That being said some judges do judge return
Therefore for that and other reasons it's a good idea to teach them to return honestly. The procedure is rather straightforward when the dog starts cheating you blow the whistle and handle them back to where cheat occurred and into the water and bring em back online. Hopefully you taught discipline casting in the TT as this facilitates that procedure greatly


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

Just to be clear, can you or can you not say sit or stay to your dog once you get to the line in a senior or seasoned hunt test?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

themaninblack3 said:


> Just to be clear, can you or can you not say sit or stay to your dog once you get to the line in a senior or seasoned hunt test?


 In HRC Seasoned you can talk to your dog through the test. In Senior you may talk to your dog, quietly non-intimidating, before you call for the birds, then must be quiet. If it's in the walk-up in Senior you may blow the sit whistle or say "sit" ONCE (Can't do both). Make sure and ask the judges when the test dog runs if you have any more questions or want clarifications.


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## themaninblack3 (Aug 9, 2017)

Peter Balzer said:


> In HRC Seasoned you can talk to your dog through the test. In Senior you may talk to your dog, quietly non-intimidating, before you call for the birds, then must be quiet. If it's in the walk-up in Senior you may blow the sit whistle or say "sit" ONCE (Can't do both). Make sure and ask the judges when the test dog runs if you have any more questions or want clarifications.


Good deal. Thanks for the clarification!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Run them both judge them both, funny thing is when I set-up both tests the marks - blinds are usually the same . Still for those that say senior is harder, I would agree the *dog work* in senior is normally harder; I believe this is because AKC leaves the judges a bunch of grey areas to play around with. In seasoned the rule book is pretty black and white on how items need to be setup, and hunt committee approves the test thus enforcing the requirements. 
That said a AKC senior test is almost always, a land double, a land blind, a water double, a water blind; a walkup-honor in one of the doubles and it's very rare to see diversion-bulldogs or anything else. Now HRC Seasoned* requires*, a walk-up, and a diversion; but also extreme *handler gun work* which is challenging in itself, they'll have you juggling guns and things to make your head spin; and that will oftentimes fail the team if you mess it up. Also the excitement level for particular dogs in HRC can be a hindrance, everything tends to be closer and in your face. Sure you can talk to your dog, but will your dog listen; by the end of the day "perhaps not". So which venue will be easier etc. will really depend on the dog and handler team. AKC always has a flyer haven't ever seen a test without one, whereas HRC seasoned can have a flyer, most of the time they don't; but then again my HRC club usually does so... "it can happen"
Of my own dogs, for one wild-child HRC was the hardest venue to finish, for the other dog AKC was more challenging. Run them both, but I would run HRC first, simply because you spend your money and you play all day; you are guaranteed to see how your dog preforms on both land and water. Whereas AKC you might pay your money, be out there several times and never actually see a water series. I'd rather be able to see where my dog is weak, thought out a whole test and be able to improve upon all the aspects, than only see what they are weak on land at one test and finally where they are weak in water when we actually get there .


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Mike Perry said:


> In Seasoned maybe not. but in SR., if you don't get in the water on the way to the mark nd stay in on a pretty good line to the mark, the odds are that you will be zeroed in perseverance and be out.


That's pretty harsh. I hope most folks judging Senior are not doing this.

I'm not so picky that a dog getting out of the water early is zeroed for perseverance. There are a bunch of numbers between 10 and 0; we should use them.  Even in Field trials dogs exit the water early in the last series and earn a placement or JAM with fair regularity. Straight lines on the score sheet are beautiful and easy to judge, but they aren't the norm, at least in my experience. It's what we train towards, but we need to remember that Senior dogs are only about 3/4 trained. The fully trained dogs are being tested over in Master.

Senior water marks should have the type of entry where there is a *SUBSTANTIAL *piece of water in front of the dog. Cheaty entries are not needed to evaluate marking by a Senior dog . Cheaty entries only test trainability. A good long swim with an obstacle on the way to the bird is all you need to evaluate perseverance in a water test. 

Just my opinion on the subject. No more, no less! -Paul


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