# Ranking Field Titles



## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

OK, I'm bored too! Just stirring the pot a little and wondering what others think. I know that most put the NFC or NAFC first and next the FC and AFC titles. 

I am wondering how much higher in degrees of difficulty or level esteem do you place them? If the top title is worth 100 points and a dog that won't pick up a bird is a Zero, where does the JH and WC titles fit in? What about a dog without a title that will retrieve, but has no titles? 

What about Canadian titles? Where do they fit in? How about QAA, Derby list and high point Derby dog? What about AA points?

Here's a start. 

100 NFC
95 NAFC
80 FC
75 AFC
60 AA points
50 QAA
45 MH
40 Derby list
35 SH
33 HRCH
30 Derby points
25 WCX
20 WC
15 JH
10 Started

I know I have left several titles out. Where do they fit in?


John


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## louisianadukdog (Mar 22, 2006)

Well one that comes to mind would be a HRC Grand Title. GRHRC, and should fall somewhere around a MH title. In some people's opinion, just above a MH and in others below a MH.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

I would certainly give more weight to a JH than a WC or WCX. Here are the requirements for WC and WCX from the Labrador Retriever Club of the Potomac:



> SECTION 3. Field Event Rules:
> 
> 1. Release Statement: The wording for the release statement for training days and hunt tests shall read as follows: "The LRCP will not tolerate the abuse of dogs nor unsportsmanlike conduct. AKC rules and regulations regarding humane treatment of birds will be followed." (March 2001)
> 2. Working Certificate: The purpose of the Working Certificate (WC) test is to encourage the development of the natural retrieving abilities of the labrador through training.
> ...


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

My list --

NFC 
NAFC 
FC 
AFC 
AA Win
AA points 
QAA 
MNH
GHRCH
MH 
HRCH 
Derby list 
SH 
Derby points 
HR
JH 
Started 
WCX 
WC


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

I would put derby points just under derby list. I feel the marking concepts required today generally require some handling and that most derby dogs would probably easily be able to run an SH...

WC needs to drop to the bottom. WCX bump up to under SH, which is now under derby points (on my list).

I think Kevin's list complements your's nicely.

-K


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## Frenchy (Jul 9, 2005)

Yep, your initial list is a good start. I'd just add the HRC HR title in there just above the JH. I placed the HRCH title just slightly above the SH. Modified some of the points for the early titles, and sliped the GRHRCH in at the same level as QAA

100 NFC 
95 NAFC 
80 FC 
75 AFC 
60 AA points 
50 QAA 
50 GRHRCH
45 MH 
40 Derby list 
38 HRCH 
35 SH 
30 Derby points 
15 HR
10 JH
10 WCX 
5 WC 
5 SHR


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

I'd put Derby list, and maybe Derby points, above MH and HRCH. A MH or HRCH can be obtained over many years and after many failures. Derby list is over a limited amount of time and the skill level of the top Derby dogs these days surpasses most Master and HRCH dogs.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

WC and WCX are different for Labs and Goldens and the other breeds. Golden WC is harder. The National Lab club allows each individual club to make up its own rules for the WCX!?!?!

I put the WC ahead of the basic HT titles because the dog does have to count to two and remember a bird. Also have to pick up more than just ducks. I know it's North of Zero.....just not much.

Forgot to put FC-AFC above FC too.


John


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Derby point*s* under derby list, and before SH, MH, and HRCH. From what I have heard from those that have run, usually current JH over WC *and *WCX.


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

Without a doubt I would put derby points just under derby list. My SH bitch has a MH pass at 20 months. However, we still don't have any derby points. Some JAMS but no points. Hopefully this will all change soon.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

It seems that I saw a comment once from Dr. Ed that he thought QAA was actually easier than derby. I could be wrong. I have had several people tell me that it's harder for them to judge derby than qualifying because derby is all about marking, and you will often have several very good markers that nail everything. No blinds to differentiate the field. They also thought derby was very difficult, because you had to have a great pin point marker and that in other stakes a good handling dog could overcome not hammering every single mark.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

We don't have a club in my area, so I speak from ignorance, which many will attest is the norm. I do, however, notice a lack of NAHRA titles in this list. Is NAHRA dwindling that bad? Where would they fit? Ken maybe you could add to this? 

tt


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Derby point*s* under derby list, and before SH, MH, and HRCH. From what I have heard from those that have run, usually current JH over WC *and *WCX.


How can you rank derby list & derby points above MH with the blinds that are involved in a MH test?

NFC 
NAFC
FC AFC 
FC 
AFC 
AA win
AA points 
QAA 
MNH
MH/GRHRCH
HRCH
Derby List 
SH 
Derby points 
HR 
JH 
SHR
Don't know anything about WCX/WC & don't have a NAHRA club in SC that I'm aware of.


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## Frenchy (Jul 9, 2005)

I can see the argument for the Derby being more difficult than the SH. Especially with the 2yo age restictions and the level of training that it takes to get those derby points. I'm not sure I'd put it ahead of a MH, but then again I'm new and haven't run a MH or a Derby. :lol:


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

I also still haven't seen a good answer as to the CNFC and CNAFC rankings. In interest of full disclosure, I have a CNFC pup and hop it ranks high in peoples minds'. So, what about our cold weather friends?

tt


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## check171 (May 12, 2004)

My list -- 

NFC /FC
NAFC /AFC
AA Win 
AA points 
QAA
Derby list 
Derby points
MNH
MH 
GHRCH 
HRCH 
SH 
HR
WCX 
JH 
WC
Started 

Just my opinon


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

I personally would put the Nahra MHR just above the MH, due to the more steps involved in a single test. This titles requires a dog to hunt upland, be steady to flush, follow a trail to find a bird, as well as the triples and blinds. From what I hear, the HRC Grand is a very similar format, so I would place that at the same level, just above MH.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Check171,

I am a confirmed duface, but I personally in my purchase decisions, don't put FC above NAFC. I think since some amatuers win the Open National would put the Nat. Am above the FC. Just my thoughts. Rip away if you wish. I am just a hunting dog trainer.

tt


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> How can you rank derby list & derby points above MH with the blinds that are involved in a MH test?


Because it's a competition for 4 places, not pass fail, and the dogs usually have to be outstanding markers. I've also run both. They are not really titles but a degree of difficulty and almost all derby dogs that are successful are handling.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Labman, 

Thanks for your answer. That is the sort of comparison I am asking for. I think NAHRA is hurt by not having a registry attached to it, but MHR is nonetheless impressive. 

tt


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> > How can you rank derby list & derby points above MH with the blinds that are involved in a MH test?
> 
> 
> Because it's a competition for 4 places, not pass fail, and the dogs usually have to be outstanding markers. I've also run both. They are not really titles but a degree of difficulty *and almost all derby dogs that are successful are handling.*


I have a pup that is doing blinds out to 350 yards that hasn't run a derby, and might not. Her trainer and I have pretty much agreed that she would be ready to do well in qualifying before seeing competition of any kind. I bet there are a lot of other derby dogs out there with similar training...


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

My list:

NFC-NAFC
NFC
NAFC
FC-AFC
FC
AFC
AA Win
AA Points
AA Jams
QAA via Qualifying stake
MNH
GRHRCH
DL
Derby Points
MH
GMHR
MHR
HRCH
SH
HR
WR
Solid Hunting Dog, both waterfowl and upland
WCX
WC
JH
SR
SHR


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> > How can you rank derby list & derby points above MH with the blinds that are involved in a MH test?
> 
> 
> Because it's a competition for 4 places, not pass fail, and the dogs usually have to be outstanding markers. I've also run both. They are not really titles but a degree of difficulty and almost all derby dogs that are successful are handling.


I agree. I have a girl who had a derby career of one whole point (and lotsa green), but had three Master legs before her 2nd birthday. MH is a piece of cake compared to making the list.

labman, I will have to disagree on the NAHRA MHR being tougher than an AKC MH...big time! My old girl's GMHR was a cake walk compared to her MH. Not like her MH was painful, but NAHRA is forgiving in many areas, including line manners. Not like I know that from experience or anything. 8)


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

By "Ken" I mean Ken Bora, my sugar making friend.

tt


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## Ducks and Dogs (May 12, 2003)

so were does a SRS winner rate :twisted:


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

FOM; my list would mirror yours exactly


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## Richard Finch (Jul 26, 2006)

*LIST*

NFC
NAFC
FC
AFC 
OPEN DERBY WIN OR PLACEMENT
AA POINTS
MNH
GRHRCH
MH
HRCH
SH
HR
JH
SHR



RICHARD


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Just my opinion, but I would put the SRS winner somewhere around the FC/AFC ranking. These dogs have clearly proven themselves. 

tt


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

FOM said:


> My list:
> 
> NFC-NAFC
> NFC
> ...


The best list I've seen so far! 8) 

But, where are the SRS Crown Champ, Dock Jumping Dog and Pointing Lab titled dogs ranked? :?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> The best list I've seen so far! 8)
> 
> But, where are the SRS Crown Champ, Dock Jumping Dog and Pointing Lab titled dogs ranked? :?


Sorry sir, I have ZERO experience with those venues, so they do not rank with me as I do not know what is required of them. 

Also I would not consider Dock Jumping as a field title.....

FOM


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2007)

*Re: LIST*



Richard Finch said:


> NFC
> *OPEN DERBY WIN OR PLACEMENT*
> AA POINTS


 :?:


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Melanie,

I love your sig. line. Seuss was a genius.

tt


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

Mr Booty said:


> FOM said:
> 
> 
> > My list:
> ...


Continuing from list above:

dock jumping dog

Poodle obstacle course champion


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

MRGD said:


> Just my opinion, but I would put the SRS winner somewhere around the FC/AFC ranking. These dogs have clearly proven themselves.
> 
> tt


 :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Here we go again. :wink:


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Stir it up Ken, its been boring around here.

tt


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> ErinsEdge said:
> 
> 
> > > How can you rank derby list & derby points above MH with the blinds that are involved in a MH test?
> ...


It is all about the different kind of training. I know of a very nice dog that had his MH at a young age, that failed his first Nahra test miserably. He told be that the Nahra tests were, not necasarrily harder, but required different training. Also, it all depends on the JUDGE!! There are good ones, and others that are not so much.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> ErinsEdge said:
> 
> 
> > > How can you rank derby list & derby points above MH with the blinds that are involved in a MH test?
> ...


I agree with everything you said other than that NAHRA judges go easy on line manners. As a NAHRA and AKC judge, in my experience, line manners should be judged more critically at the AKC tests than they typically are. Marking is of primary importance but sitting still and being quiet are even more important while hunting. AKC Master does typically have more complicated set up's than NAHRA Senior but to say that NAHRA Senior is easier than AKC Master depends on the dog, the day and the judges.

Lainee's list is by far the most accurate, in my opinion.

Travis


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Frenchy said:


> Yep, your initial list is a good start. I'd just add the HRC HR title in there just above the JH. I placed the HRCH title just slightly above the SH. Modified some of the points for the early titles, and sliped the GRHRCH in at the same level as QAA
> 
> 100 NFC
> 95 NAFC
> ...


I dont know where to add CFC & CAFC probably CFC below FC and CAFC below AFC. NFTCH & NAFTCH below the NFC & NAFC.


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## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

FOM said:


> My list:
> 
> NFC-NAFC
> NFC
> ...



I tend to agree that the Gnome's list has value, but I replace any of the NAHRA GMHR, MHR, WR & SR spots because they're not Titles.............and replace them with the NFRA Titles that have a Registry......and are true Titles, NFTC, NDC, FTC, MFR, SFR, DFR & JFR................. :wink:


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## check171 (May 12, 2004)

MRGD said:


> Check171,
> 
> I am a confirmed duface, but I personally in my purchase decisions, don't put FC above NAFC. I think since some amatuers win the Open National would put the Nat. Am above the FC. Just my thoughts. Rip away if you wish. I am just a hunting dog trainer.
> 
> tt


I guess i put them together because they are equal its a trial and every dog has its day if we had nationals every weekend most of them would be NFC or NAFC dogs just my opinion .

What are your thoughts all great dogs if they reach those titles .


As for the SRS winners they belong in there somewhere just not sure where .it would be up there though


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

I am flabbergasted by my friends here who put Derby-anything above MH and MNH, HRCH and GHRCH.

The Master and Finished dogs must not also have to know all the marking concepts a Derby dog does, but also must do more complicated marking concepts AS WELL AS handle!

"Sure Kevin, but Derby is competitive, you still have to defeat others to earn those points, whereas the Master and Finished dogs need only run enough times. . . ." By that logic, one only needs to run enough times in Derby to earn your Derby placement!!! So I have a lousy Master/Finished dog, and so it takes me fifteen to twenty entries to get my five passes. You are telling me I can't get a Derby placement with an relatively yet equally competent Derby dog in fifteen to twenty tries?! 

Come on, give me a break. :roll:


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

I am flabbergasted by my friends here who put Derby-anything above MH and MNH, HRCH and GHRCH.

The Master and Finished dogs must not also have to know all the marking concepts a Derby dog does, but also must do more complicated marking concepts AS WELL AS handle!

"Sure Kevin, but Derby is competitive, you still have to defeat others to earn those points, whereas the Master and Finished dogs need only run enough times. . . ." By that logic, one only needs to run enough times in Derby to earn your Derby placement!!! So I have a lousy Master/Finished dog, and so it takes me fifteen to twenty entries to get my five passes. You are telling me I can't get a Derby placement with an relatively yet equally competent Derby dog in fifteen to twenty tries?! 

Come on, give me a break. :roll:


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Here is a question to spark some discussion --

*What is more difficult, a win in a US AA stake versus a CFC or CAFC?*


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm disappointed to see how few people have mentioned the Canadian titles, as well as the NFRA. Those dogs have to do the work and it's far from easy.

I also feel strongly that an SRS Winner is a pretty damn good AA dog also!!! However the "upper level" titled dogs have to do it on more than one weekend.

The Junior Hunters and their counterparts are strictly for OUR pleasure.

Jerry


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Wow, check out that double post.

I tried posting it once and got an error message "debug: 24, posting failed."

So I tried again, and it worked. But it worked the first time too! :?


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## check171 (May 12, 2004)

Kevin there are few MH or HRCH dogs before the age of 2 you have been to a few Derbys how many MH/HRCH dogs will do the concepts of the derbys you seen ? 

not saying that any could not but in todays Derbys they are not easy they are to much for most of the MH/HRCH dogs .

JMHO 
I am no expert i could be totally wrong .


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Jerry said:


> I also feel strongly that an SRS Winner is a pretty damn good AA dog also!!!
> Jerry


That one gets a big "depends". Appears to me that if one is on the "JT approved" list that the SRS winner thing gets a LOT easier. An "Ain't on that list SRS winner" qualifies as a Modern Era Miracle.

Just an observation regards

Bubba


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## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Jerry said:
> 
> 
> > I also feel strongly that an SRS Winner is a pretty damn good AA dog also!!!
> ...


Disagree here Bubba, the SRS dawgs are a breed of their own, has nothin' to do with JT, only some previous title that proves you can compete there regardless of venue, and have prepared yer dawg for any situations reguired.....it's far from a miracle...............it is a test of guts and team work....and may the best team win................


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Polock said:


> Bubba said:
> 
> 
> > Jerry said:
> ...


I agree...................Well said Polock


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## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

My list: 

NFC
NAFC 
FC 
NFTCH (CNFC) 
AFC 
NAFTCH (CNAFC)
FTCH (CFC)
AFTCH (CAFC) 
US Open Win with an Amateur Handling their dog 
AA points
QAA via Jamming a Major Stake
QAA via Qualifying stake 
GRHRCH
MNH 
Derby List 
Derby Points 
MH 
HRCH 
SH 
HR 
JH 
SHR

I have no idea about WC or WCX or NAHRA.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I pretty much agree but think I might put senior in front of HRCH.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

I have to strongly disagree with ya there Fowlhunter. HRCH is more difficult than Senior Hunter.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Fowlhunter

Bring your senior dog to a Finished test and have the Judge designate order of pick up!!

Lets see what happens!

Gooser---- Just sayin

(Or have the Honor dog pick up your dogs GO BIRD!! of the triple) :shock:


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

You know your probably right because I forgot about blinds.Snior blinds arent as long r tough as Finished but I havent seen a finished marking test all that much harder than senior.Yes finished is a triple but to me it seems the senior double has been farther and a little more meat than most finished I have seen,JMO(thinking about Big D senior). But as with any test alot has to do with Judges. No matter what they are all fun and non are a given you sill receive a ribbon.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Hey dont get me wrong I took a QAA dog to a finished test and he switched bigger than [email protected]$ on the diversion 5 feet from his face.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

I think Derby List, against today's derby dogs, is more difficult to obtain than QAA and i would put more stock in a dog's talent/ability on the DL over one that is QAA (with no points). A dog that makes the DL can mark and has shown it multiple times. So DL above QAA, but below AA points.

New post material.... does the addition of O/H Quals into hunt tests lower the meaning of QAA in your eyes?

SM


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> I think Derby List, against today's derby dogs, is more difficult to obtain than QAA and i would put more stock in a dog's talent/ability on the DL over one that is QAA (with no points). A dog that makes the DL can mark and has shown it multiple times. So DL above QAA, but below AA points.


I believe Shayne has it right. Derby list is harder than getting a 2nd in a Q. And it's harder to get a 2nd in a Q than it is to get a MH. You've got years to QAA and or get a MH. The legal window of opportunity for a derby dog is 18 months with a realistic window of maybe 12 or so months for the best dogs.

Look how many dogs make the derby list each year compared to how many dogs attain the MH title.


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## DeWitt Boice (Aug 26, 2005)

*100 NFC
95 NAFC
50 FC\AFC
45 FC or AFC
20 AA points
19 QAA, MH, Derby list, ... ect.
15 SH .... ect.
10 POS
0 see most viewed sticky*


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Is this a riddle :lol: 

If it is then I would say that it is equaly as difficult to be the top derby dog every year as it would to be a NFC or NAFC because only 1 can be awarded per year.

How ever The more nationals someone wins the more prestigious the title. 

Is a 3xNFC more difficult and presitgious than NFC


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## Dave Combs (Feb 28, 2003)

Polock said:


> I tend to agree that the Gnome's list has value, but I replace any of the NAHRA GMHR, MHR, WR & SR spots because they're not Titles.............and replace them with the NFRA Titles that have a Registry......and are true Titles, NFTC, NDC, FTC, MFR, SFR, DFR & JFR................. :wink:


Not titles? 
Just because a venue started its own registry doesn't make them any better than another. Hell, CONKC is a registry!

GMHR x 2 and counting regards


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Polock said:


> I tend to agree that the Gnome's list has value, but I replace any of the NAHRA GMHR, MHR, WR & SR spots because they're not Titles.............and replace them with the NFRA Titles that have a Registry......and are true Titles


hmmm..... those NAHRA titles are not real? Does that make you feel good? Do you push away from the keyboard after typing your usual spew of hate and say 
"That... was... great!...... I got... to bash... NAHRA.......... again!" 
How many of your dogs did you put those useless NAHRA titles on? How many hours did you spend training your dogs for those same tests? How many weekends did you spend in the chair judging NAHRA events to get all those points? What, nothing good on TV that weekend? How many people paid you to get their dogs ready for NAHRA tests? Better give them their money back because you must have just had to toss a tennis ball in the drive way a couple times, nothing else must be needed to get through this meaningless format. How many people did you train on how to run these meaningless tests? My what a waste of your time, how did you get through it and maintain your cheery helpful attitude? Your hypocrisy hangs thick like the fog over the test grounds in the morning. Never has anybody so constantly gone out of their way to be so negative to NAHRA. Does it make you happy? Reading what you type is like being in a port-o-let on a hot Sunday afternoon at a three day field test, it stinks! My club has held 23+ summers of NAHRA Field tests. We only had to cancel 1. It happened to be the one that I had asked you to judge at. I did not realize until after how many people had YOU on their "judges list". You want to look for a way to make a difference? Get a Mirror!
Ken Bora


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I think Derby List, against today's derby dogs, is more difficult to obtain than QAA and i would put more stock in a dog's talent/ability on the DL over one that is QAA (with no points). A dog that makes the DL can mark and has shown it multiple times. So DL above QAA, but below AA points.


Yes and no. It all depends. There are dogs on the derby list that never advance pretty much anywhere. There are qualifyings that are more diffficult than some amateurs and there are those won on home turf or with a very small field. They are still minor stakes but in a tough field with a large entry both can be an accomplishment.



> New post material.... does the addition of O/H Quals into hunt tests lower the meaning of QAA in your eyes?


Maybe.... if the trend escalates and pros are excluded more than not.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> > I think Derby List, against today's derby dogs, is more difficult to obtain than QAA and i would put more stock in a dog's talent/ability on the DL over one that is QAA (with no points). A dog that makes the DL can mark and has shown it multiple times. So DL above QAA, but below AA points.
> 
> 
> Yes and no. It all depends. There are dogs on the derby list that never advance pretty much anywhere. There are qualifyings that are more diffficult than some amateurs and there are those won on home turf or with a very small field. They are still minor stakes but in a tough field with a large entry both can be an accomplishment.


I dunno Nancy. I bet there are very few DL dogs that don't get QAA and it would be safe to say that a dog could go on from DL to be a MH with relative ease. Marking is the most important ingredient in a great dog and a dog on the DL has proved he can do it.

Most impressive feat in all of retrieverdom... an amateur trained and handled dog winning a National Open. It's exponentially more impressive if that amateur has a job!

SM


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2007)

Whats wrong with you Polock? I just don't understand all the venom you have for NAHRA. A game you played and judged for a number of years. I am really at a loss as to what makes you trash us so regularly these days. 

Not titles? What the heck does that mean? You mean these 5 GMHR dogs at my feet with their 95% pass rates (or higher) should not be allowed to be on the field with all of the other dogs? The same dogs that have the "real" NFRA master titles and nearly 100% pass rates (thats right, I admit we only got 16/17 passes). I probably shouldn't mention these flea bags got 9 of the FTWs also and maybe, you judged several of those!

And where did this hounds earn those titles? Oh yeah, supporting your AFFR club and even my own club trying to get NFRA a foothold in the east. Hows it doing by the way?

I won't make any bold or self serving assurances or predictions on how these lousy "untitled" hounds would do on the field with the "titled" dogs but lets just say I will continue to feed them. Maybe I should not have spent as much money on FF and CC that you have to earn your titles. Oh thats right, I didn't spend any! Guess thats where my dogs problems lie. An occasional ear tug or worse, a roll over to get them to run a straight line for a couple hundred yards isn't enough!

NAHRA does not have a registry and probably never will. How could it compete? It would do as well as someone trying to compete with Pepsi and Coke, eh? I don't need a registry to see a really good dog no matter what it runs. That is if I am allowed to pretend to know something (apparently very little for running NAHRA). Congrads to everyone who does well in what they like to run. 

I don't profess to know what the criteria are for titles in other organizations. That is, how many passes it takes to title. But I do know that there is no organization or registry that shows the pass/fail rate of a titled dog! Not even my no title NAHRA organization. So don't tell me that just because your dog has an XXX title from XXX organization, that it is better than mine and I will do the same.

If ya don't love us anymore Dan, just leave us alone. Find someone else to trash. Good luck with your dogs.

Frank


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I bet there are very few DL dogs that don't get QAA and *it would be safe to say that a dog could go on from DL to be a MH with relative ease*.


I will agree with you there. It's a huge gray area and all depends on your goals. The marking has to be there and is very important or forget it for advancing but training attitude, intelligence, and being a team player enter in for success at the all age level. After all, the dogs love the marks but a bad attitude for the rest is not desired if you want to advance on in FT. HT bring them up. I personally want to see a dog run long blinds happy and as a team player so I still rank QAA above DL but not NDL. The Derby List can mean only 10 points which I'm not downgrading but some of those don't go on.


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## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Sorry you guys took a big offense to the Not Titles statement, but it's true.
At least in the days when JJ was in charge the program had creditibility.
Now it's about changing the rules to soot whomever, heck just look at the RAW, 600+ dogs eligible, most are dead, what's with that.
No Pro's runnin' the game and the only organiztion that ya have to pay to belong to.
It has turned into, let's hand out ribbons, let anybody judge, and make the tests easy.
Yeah, Ken Bora, I'm sure I'm on alot of folks judges lists, because I put on a tough test and don't give ribbons away. But lets not forget there are always two judges in the chair, and qualifiers are based on those TWO decisions.
I spent 20 years in the NAHRA game, and enjoyed alot of tests and tailgates, but it's not what it was any more......the new kids on the block wants the easy way..........change ribbons, lets have a Hunters stake, which is flop, judges that don't know the rulebook and make stuff up as they go, yada, yada, yada........

Dog to the line...................


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Yall forgot about NFRA.They have a little bit of it all.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

How about adding qualifiers for both Amateur National and National competitions to the list of points awarded. Those dogs had to in one canendar year have a win and 2 additional points to even get a chance to run a US National. In Canada, any placement offers you an opportunity to participate in a National event. Huge differnce in my book. 
I agree with Greg...an Open win with an Amateur handler deserves appropriate recognition as well. 
Junior hunter title above WC. JH has to pass four legs...WC one.


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## DKR (May 9, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Most impressive feat in all of retrieverdom... an amateur trained and handled dog winning a National Open. It's exponentially more impressive if that amateur has a job!
> 
> SM


That's my vote.


All lines produce slightly different traits. 
A nice dog that is a little piggy at an AA stake might be a great candidate for a slow morning in a duck blind.


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## birdhunter61 (Aug 8, 2004)

When did MNH and QAA become titles? 
Shayne, good question, Have Quals in conjunction with hunts tests become watered down? Possibly, without the FT pros being there, wouldn't quite be the same.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

birdhunter61 said:


> When did MNH and QAA become titles?
> Shayne, good question, Have Quals in conjunction with hunts tests become watered down? Possibly, without the FT pros being there, wouldn't quite be the same.


GRCA and FCRSA have recognized the QAA or *** title for quite some time.

OH/Quals at HTs are watered down, but so are 9 dog quals in areas with few competitors and fewer pros.


John


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

*Ranking Derby dogs accomplishments*

A lot of Derby dogs do not make the big time. IMO it is more of a training & patience issue than a dog issue. Working dogs through issues is something that many trainers can't &/or won't do. 

As for Derby list dogs being QAA - if you looked at available info you would find that the success rate is in the 50-60 % range. 

Dogs that handle well are not comparable to dogs that mark well. When you are fortunate enough to get both in the same dog you have a real competitor.

Marvin S


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Polock said:
> 
> 
> > I tend to agree that the Gnome's list has value, but I replace any of the NAHRA GMHR, MHR, WR & SR spots because they're not Titles.............and replace them with the NFRA Titles that have a Registry......and are true Titles
> ...


This doesn't need to become a NAHRA/NFRA thread. But FYI, anyone can start a new organization and keep a spreadsheet of the dogs running and call it a registry. My guess is that NAHRA has a much larger "spreadsheet" of dogs than NFRA. But thats just a guess. And thinking back to my NAHRA days, that MHR was something to be proud of and pretty difficult to obtain.

SM


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2007)

Just curious, on average how many dogs does one have to beat to earn the NFRA "titles" of Field Test Champion, National Derby Champion, National Master & Open Champion?

I haven't played this game so can't speak from experience, but from the few events I have been told about or read about, there were very few dogs competing so it would appear it takes very little to become a "Champion."

Again, I don't play in this venue, so I am prepared to become enlightened as to how they dish out letters to add to dogs' names.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Most ranking have placed FC over AFC and NFC over NAFC.
The vast majority of AFCs and NAFCs have been trained and/or handled by someone other than the "A" that handled them to the title. Should we not give more credit to this dog that will has proven excellence under at least 2 people?

Tim


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2007)

Sorry Polock, I can't argue with your facts..........................if you had any!


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> Just curious, on average how many dogs does one have to beat to earn the NFRA "titles" of Field Test Champion, National Derby Champion, National Master & Open Champion?
> 
> I haven't played this game so can't speak from experience, but from the few events I have been told about or read about, there were very few dogs competing so it would appear it takes very little to become a "Champion."
> 
> Again, I don't play in this venue, so I am prepared to become enlightened as to how they dish out letters to add to dogs' names.


Similar question. On average, how many dogs does one have to beat to become a Canadian Field Champion? I've seen some pretty small entries in Retrievers Online, 18 dog Opens, 23 dog Opens. What does a dog need in terms of wins and points to becoma a Canadian Field Champion?


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

I'm going to support the NAHRA MHR/GMHR title too. I didn't do a ranking since others have done a very good job and it is getting down to preferences.

It has been a number of years since I've run a NAHRA test. But, when I did they were a lot of fun and a dog that finished a senior (master) and/or had the MHR title could hunt! I don't ever remember running under judges that did not hunt. The tests were usually small enough that the judges could do what they wanted to to make them as realistic as possible.

Think about quartering a field to a fly-away live bird and then running either marks or a blind. The order of marks usually went closest to furthest. How about about a bird coming out of a strongarm from behind you and landing within 15 yards of the dog and then getting it to look out for the other marks. 

I remember one set of water marks for intermediate (senior) that was at the back of a pond with flooded timber. This was an old strip mine so you had to walk down a steep bank. When you came out of the holding blind you got your dog lined up and then waited for a minute or two. Just like hunting. It was funny to watch the handlers waving their hand behind their back, looking at the judges to get the marks thrown. After sitting quietly in the blind the calling started. Again, it wasn't just a quack-quack, lots of calling, echoing in the valley. The dogs actually did better than the handlers.

NAHRA was a lot of fun and the upper level dogs could hunt! I never remember any gimmie ribbons. The MHR/GMHR needs to rank up with the MH for sure.

Tom


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Ranking Derby dogs accomplishments*



itilii said:


> As for Derby list dogs being QAA - if you looked at available info you would find that the success rate is in the 50-60 % range.


So your saying that 40-50% of the dogs that make the derby list never get QAA? I find that very hard to believe.

SM


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I cant imagine a SH being harder than derby.SH has distance restrictions and derby doesnt..I have seen soome LOOOONNGGG derby doubles with lots of factors and havent ever seen a SH mark farther than 115 yards.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

When was the last NFRA test? When is the next one?



> New post material.... does the addition of O/H Quals into hunt tests lower the meaning of QAA in your eyes?


Here's one that sorta gets me....it's a Qual "in general" issue.....

Most Quals have 20-30 dogs run in them. It's great to finish and all that, but only the top two places mean anything. With the Qual being the "stepping stone" stake to All-Age (and just because a dog becomes QAA thru the Q does NOT mean it's prepared to run AA stakes....), does becoming eligible to run a limited, aka "QAA," thru the qual by winning a Qual with less than 10 dogs mean any more/less than winning/finishing second in one with 20-30 dogs? Of course it doesn't at the end of the day, but is "beating" 18-28 other dogs more indicative of ability than "beating" 8 other dogs?

_Hmmmmmmm_??:wink: 

kg


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I also cant believe some put a gap in there ranking between derby points and derby list.So a dog with 9 derby point isnt as good as a dog thats on the derby list with 10 points?


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I know there was a NFRA test in north Texas around this time last year.I dont know when or if there will be anymore.


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

Polock said:


> judges that don't know the rulebook and make stuff up as they go, yada, yada, yada........
> 
> Dog to the line...................


So, your telling me that this only happens in Nahra, huh? I am sure that there is more than enough of these kind of judges in any venue, maybe even more in AKC, possibly because there are just more judges? I have been running Nahra for about 5 years, and can remember only 2 instances where there was a rule infraction by the judges. So that equates to me running 20+ Started, 15+ Intermediate, and 20+ Senior tests. So, let's say about 4 % of the tests I have run were not good tests.There was a post a little while back that had a bunch of quotes from different judges, I think most of them came from AKC judges. Look it up and read it, now tell me that AKC only has well educated judges! There are good and bad in every venue.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I can only speak for the 2 NFRA events I have been to that there were less than 12-15 dogs per stake. You can run a NFRA derby until you are 3 yrs old.I know one of the open dogs of the year I believe( i may be wrong) is QAA(won 1st in qual) in AKC but hasnt placed or jammed in AKC open or AMs yet.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> There was a post a little while back that had a bunch of quotes from different judges, I think most of them came from AKC judges. Look it up and read it, now tell me that AKC only has well educated judges!


What are you saying here, Labman? I hate to make assumptions.....

kg


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

K G said:


> When was the last NFRA test? When is the next one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would also say that gap has grown substantially over the last 7-8 years. The evolution of the Qual has not kept pace with the evolution of AA stakes, AND the derby.


SM


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## Lynn Moore (May 30, 2005)

K G said:


> Here's one that sorta gets me....it's a Qual "in general" issue.....
> 
> Most Quals have 20-30 dogs run in them. It's great to finish and all that, but only the top two places mean anything. With the Qual being the "stepping stone" stake to All-Age (and just because a dog becomes QAA thru the Q does NOT mean it's prepared to run AA stakes....), does becoming eligible to run a limited, aka "QAA," thru the qual by winning a Qual with less than 10 dogs mean any more/less than winning/finishing second in one with 20-30 dogs? Of course it doesn't at the end of the day, but is "beating" 18-28 other dogs more indicative of ability than "beating" 8 other dogs?
> 
> ...


Very true,....and I think there is also a huge difference between the first or second in the Q and becoming *** by jamming the Open or Am, which is way harder. I believe this is why *** is not a "real" title (excuse me Golden folks) because there is no differentiation between these two ways to get Qualified All Age.

I like Dewitt's list because winning the National should be a greater number than the FC and the AFC added together.

LM


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

The Best Title a dog can have is...........................

When you lay your dog to rest and remember the days you shared with it and can say..............................

" " was a GOOD dog. :wink:


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

K G said:


> > There was a post a little while back that had a bunch of quotes from different judges, I think most of them came from AKC judges. Look it up and read it, now tell me that AKC only has well educated judges!
> 
> 
> What are you saying here, Labman? I hate to make assumptions.....
> ...


I am saying, to Polock, that making a statement like saying that ALL nahra judges are basically dumb and don't know the rule book, is like saying that ALL AKC, UKC, NFRA know the rule book perfectly. Like I said earlier, there are good and bad judges in EVERY venue of any dog game. I know of some VERY knowledgeable judges in Nahra and HRC/UKC, as well as I am quite certain that there are some very good, knowledgeable judges in AKC, ETC. I have also run under some real dumba$$es in both venues, while following the rules, just don't set up a logicle, efficient, challenging test.


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## DH (Oct 3, 2006)

> The Best Title a dog can have is...........................
> 
> When you lay your dog to rest and remember the days you shared with it and can say..............................
> 
> " " was a GOOD dog.


That's probably the best thing I've read on this site in a while. Sometimes we forget that.

DH


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> " " was a GOOD dog. :wink:


Just make sure you don't tell him that while he's running a water blind! :shock: 

There was a time on RTF when EVERY person reading would have gotten that joke.  

SM


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> The Best Title a dog can have is...........................
> 
> When you lay your dog to rest and remember the days you shared with it and can say..............................
> 
> " " was a GOOD dog. :wink:


I'm reaching for the Kleenex tissue now!  

John Gassner you big trouble marker starting this thread. :wink: Don't forget to send me your Judges Confirmation for March 08. 

quote

There was a time on RTF when EVERY person reading would have gotten that joke. 

SM

quote

How could we ever forget that, right Mr. Marvin B?


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> There was a time on RTF when EVERY person reading would have gotten that joke.


Oh, bring back the glory days. 8)


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: Ranking Derby dogs accomplishments*



Shayne Mehringer said:


> itilii said:
> 
> 
> > As for Derby list dogs being QAA - if you looked at available info you would find that the success rate is in the 50-60 % range.
> ...


Shayne 

Very easy to follow! Take your Derby listers for about 5 years & follow their future performance! 50-60% will be close. They all don't make big dogs & many times it's not the dog's fault. 

Marvin S


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2007)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Shayne Mehringer said:
> 
> 
> > There was a time on RTF when EVERY person reading would have gotten that joke.
> ...


That and this one:



Anthony Heath said:


> So do you guys think that Dave [Smith] will be the first Black trainer (out on his own) to win a National?
> 
> TFIC
> :twisted: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
> ...


 :lol: :lol:


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> They all don't make big dogs & many times it's not the dog's fault.


Any statistics available to substantiate _that_ statement?

kg


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## Chad Clagg (Jul 8, 2006)

For those of you questioning HRC I have personally seen a AFC fail a Finished test.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Have you ever seen a Finished dog finish an all-age stake?

kg


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

CC said:


> For those of you questioning HRC I have personally seen a AFC fail a Finished test.


So, that means Finished tests are harder the Amateur stakes? All the dogs that passed that Finished test will/can win an Amateur? How does the failure of a dog in a single event raise the status of another event? Shouldn't these events be able to stand on their own merits?

Tom


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

*Statistics*



K G said:


> > They all don't make big dogs & many times it's not the dog's fault.
> 
> 
> Any statistics available to substantiate _that_ statement?
> ...


Keith

You probably wouldn't agree with any statistics that I provided, so you can do what I suggested Shayne try. 

45 years of doing dogs & paying attention led me to make that observation. 

Example: When I was early on in this game my desire was to have a dog with a huge water entry, something like Michelle had on water blinds. In the Derby I observed that many of the dogs that leaped into the water on the 1st bird had problems remembering the 2nd bird. When I queried a leading pro about that his comment to me was "Don't worry about how they go in the water, just be sure they understand they need to!"

Marvin S


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

is that info on your website?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> You probably wouldn't agree with any statistics that I provided, so you can do what I suggested Shayne try.


You provided statistics (your own, I'm sure) for the statement previous to the one I quoted. I just wondered where you were going with the "not the dog's fault" statement.

That's all.

kg


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

*info*



fowl hunter said:


> is that info on your website?


No. It wouldn't add any content & is easily available to anyone willing to do what I suggested Shayne try.

The website is about Judges & the fact that many of the asked judges have neither the commitment to the sport nor the background in dog performance to be in that position!

Marvin S


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

*Re: info*



itilii said:


> fowl hunter said:
> 
> 
> > is that info on your website?
> ...


In _*your*_ opinion........ :wink: 

And we all know what opinions are like regards,

kg


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Ranking Derby dogs accomplishments*



itilii said:


> Shayne Mehringer said:
> 
> 
> > itilii said:
> ...


You give me the DL dogs from 2002 years ago and i'll pull my data to see how many are QAA. I think your wrong.

QAA does not a "big dog" make, and it hasn't in about 8 years.

SM


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Ken Guthrie said:
> 
> 
> > " " was a GOOD dog. :wink:
> ...



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

john


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Polock said:


> Sorry you guys took a big offense to the Not Titles statement,


I do not believe you are sorry at all. I think you are pleased as punch with yourself


Polock said:


> but it's true.


no actually it is not true


Polock said:


> At least in the days when JJ was in charge the program had creditibility. Now it's about changing the rules to soot whomever,


NAHRA's beginning when Ned Spear put pen to paper are the original hunt test rules. I think they have been amended twice in the past 24 years, so this also is a lie


Polock said:


> heck just look at the RAW, 600+ dogs eligible, most are dead, what's with that.


do you pick up the phone and call Rosemary at headquarters every time one of your dogs passes away? I don't think everyone else does ether. In order to be all inclusive in the welcome back to NAHRA those who have strayed the qualifying list was made as generous as possible.


Polock said:


> No Pro's runnin' the game


This also is a lie, at our last test we had professional dog trainers and dogs handled by owners who were trained by professional dog trainers 


Polock said:


> and the only organiztion that ya have to pay to belong to.


Also a lie, in AKC the dog has to be registered with AKC, you PAY for that. In HRC the handler or dog or maybe both have to be registered or a member, both PAY for that. In nafra....... oh wait do they still run tests? I guess they do not count


Polock said:


> It has turned into, let's hand out ribbons, let anybody judge, and make the tests easy.


Do you even read what you type?


Polock said:


> Yeah, Ken Bora, I'm sure I'm on alot of folks judges lists...... but it's not what it was any more


Only true line in your entire post, definitely not the same. Rubbergate is gone, the worry about management is gone, the little guy can, through the club representative or the regional director get a message directly to the board, and get a reply right away about any question. And...... it seems.... you are gone as well, SO Dan you are right (did I actually type that :roll: ) NAHRA is not what it was anymore. It is better! 8) 
Ken Bora


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Another thread spiraling downward.


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Ken Guthrie said:


> The Best Title a dog can have is...........................
> 
> When you lay your dog to rest and remember the days you shared with it and can say..............................
> 
> " " was a GOOD dog. :wink:


 I finally have a titled dog.I guess you could call it a GD.I also have one that is working on his NFG but I'm trying to see he doesn't get it.


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

I've been out training the last three days and haven't checked the computer. Thought I would respond to this. Without a doubt the most demanding title is a five star dog (*****). There have been only 2 five star retrievers in history. How many TC's in the retriever breed do you know? The question should be answered by the rarity or scarcity of the title. You know every year there is one NFC, NAFC, High Point dog. But a five star dog or TC come along very rarely. 

Jack


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

I'll bite, what is a 5 star orTC retriever?


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

I'd like to see if anyone else knows before Jack responds....you know, just to give another more seasoned veteran a chance to pony up.... 

No clue regards,

kg


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

TC=Triple Champion, the only retriever one's I've heard of have been Canadian.

*****=don't know

Tom


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Okay, is a triple Champion a FC/OTCH/CH?

And who were the two???

kg


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

K G said:


> Okay, is a triple Champion a FC/OTCH/CH?
> 
> And who were the two???
> 
> kg


Keith,

Yes, on the titles. And the Canadian dogs were CKC TC's. I think they were both owned and bred (???) by the same person.

I believe their has been one or two Viszla's that were AKC TC's. I haven't competed in any of the venues for a number of years so I'm not current and my memory doesn't contain anymore specifics. I'm sure there are others who remember more.

Tom


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## Susan (Jun 10, 2003)

Can. Triple Ch. Kenosee Jim Dandy WCX and her daughter Can. Triple Ch. Whistlnwings Kitty Magee, WCX were both owned, trained and handled to their titles by Kerry and Lori Curran of Alberta. Both earned all of their championships before their fifth birthdays with limited showing and trialing in late 80’s and early 90’s. Info and pics in the Official Book of the Labrador Retriever from the LRC, Inc. 

--Susan


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2007)

Susan said:


> Can. Triple Ch. Kenosee Jim Dandy WCX and her daughter Can. Triple Ch. Whistlnwings Kitty Magee, WCX were both owned, trained and handled to their titles by Kerry and Lori Curran of Alberta. Both earned all of their championships before their fifth birthdays with limited showing and trialing in late 80’s and early 90’s. Info and pics in the Official Book of the Labrador Retriever from the LRC, Inc.
> 
> --Susan


What a very cool accomplishment...


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> ErinsEdge said:
> 
> 
> > > great dog and a dog on the DL has proved he can do it.
> ...


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

In the 1950 book, "The Golden Retriever," published by the Club, they introduced the star method of identifying retrievers with certain accomplishments. The five star dog will be reserved for the dog that is both a National Field Champion (NFC) and a dual champion (DC). The three star designation did catch on and every now and then you find this in a field trial catalog. If you include all retrievers with this designation, there have been 2 five star dogs. 1942-43-46 NFC-DC Shed Of Arden and 1958 NFC-DC Nilo Possibility. I'm not aware of any TC's in the retreiver breed in the United States.

Jack


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