# left-sided and both sided dogs



## maliretriever (May 28, 2006)

Who are some well-known pros and others that train their FT dogs to be one-sided? I am curious.

KM


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

NFC Pete is one sided. Steve only trains one sided.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

LOL that is a good start!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ted Shih comes to mind, he is an "other"


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I believe Don Remein a very successful trainer is one sided.


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## Glenn Norton (Oct 23, 2011)

I have been told by at least 6 pro's, that the 2 sided training is done at the request of the dog's owner. They say it takes many years to properly read a dog from one side and that to effectively read a dog from 2 sides takes a long time. This is just for one dog, let alone 15 or 20.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

My observations are that at least 50% are now only one sided


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## BuddyJ (Apr 22, 2011)

Not positive but I think Rough is only one sided. The left is the only side I've ever seen him run from anyway.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Danny Farmer one side only


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## moonstonelabs (Mar 17, 2006)

I prefer two sided. Jim Gonia was asked about it and replied "yes I think it is the way to go...I just haven't had a dog live long enough to train on the other side"

Bill


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

This is interesting! I thought most trainers taught two sided heeling.... FWIW, I dont.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

John Robinson said:


> I believe Don Remein a very successful trainer is one sided.


Don is one sided.....its the only subject he addresses from the left...politically from the right


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Billie said:


> This is interesting! I thought most trainers taught two sided heeling.... FWIW, I dont.


*Not* the case for The TX Circuit.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Billie said:


> This is interesting! I thought most trainers taught two sided heeling.... FWIW, I dont.


It does seem to be a geographic thing. Bill Eckett is one sided. 

Mike Lardy, Andy Attar, Jim Van Engen, Dave Rorem are all 2-sided guys. FC Honor is 1-sided. I will NEVER again have a one-sided dog.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

If I was ambidextrous I might give it a try but after forty years I am not always accurate on one side, pushing and pulling from the left has served me well, why change now?


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

EdA said:


> If I was ambidextrous I might give it a try but after forty years I am not always accurate on one side, pushing and pulling from the left has served me well, why change now?


Amen, it was too hard for me to figure out. I have had two sided, but, in the end ran them all off the left side. When you judge in this neck of the woods, Ed, it is fun to watch, hmm let's study this for a bit as the clients ask their pros what side to run.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

I would sure like to hear some thoughts from the pros, especially the added length of time teaching it. My first dog only heals to one side, but I have two others that im training two sided healing and it is definitely taking more time, and work to get a nice clean heal.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I run my dogs on the left. 

I believe that there is a theoretical advantage to running on both. But, I have not been able to utilize it. (A long time ago, I had two two sided dogs - brothers FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie and FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker Power)

In my judging assignments, I have found that few handlers are able to make the theoretical advantage an actual advantage.

Until I retire, and I can train 5 days a week on a full time basis, I will remain one sided. But, I think that it requires a ton of practice time to realize any benefit on game day. And maybe not even then.


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

With regard to left healing, of which i suppose by far is the most common, why the LEFT and not the RIGHT? Considering most shooters (UKC) are right handed if healed on the left shooting right shouldered you can't exactly see the dog that well....right? If healed on the left, and shooting left shouldered you have 100% view of your dog at heel while "on he bucket". Fortuantely i'm left handed so it works well....not to mention you'd get a better "gun follow", but never understood why a right hander would want a left healer. I'm sure there is a reason i'm not aware of. (?)


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> Don is one sided.....its the only subject he addresses from the left...politically from the right


If you've watched Don's dogs much you will notice something else unique - 

I find this discussion interesting - most handlers can barely master one set of instructions, why would anyone want to have to learn twice as much? Now don't say to me that it provides more tools, a tool is only useful when the mechanic knows how to use it. I can't believe the number of times I've listened to someone in the gallery discuss how they screwed up a test - but never do you hear anyone say "I overthought it". There is a reason the pro's are at the National Am .


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> Amen, it was too hard for me to figure out. I have had two sided, but, in the end ran them all off the left side. When you judge in this neck of the woods, Ed, it is fun to watch, hmm let's study this for a bit as the clients ask their pros what side to run.


I have a couple of good two side stories but will keep them off the forum. When two sided heeling came into vogue it was fun to sit in the gallery at the National Amateur and listen to the endless discussions among handlers about which side to run the dog from on a particular test. I have no doubt that there is some advantage for very accomplished amateur handlers and pros but the average amateur rarely masters lining the dog up accurately on one side much less two. The biggest advantage it seems to me is blocking the flyer which I sometimes wished I could do.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

jpws said:


> With regard to left healing, of which i suppose by far is the most common, why the LEFT and not the RIGHT? )


Could it stem back to hunting purposes. and semi-auto weapons throwing shells into your dogs face if they're on the right side for right handed hunters.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> The biggest advantage it seems to me is blocking the flyer which I sometimes wished I could do.



The dogs that I had that were two sided - Ace and Zowie - figured out that the flyer was on the off side and would jump forward to look at it. That's when I said "this isn't working."


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> The dogs that I had that were two sided - Ace and Zowie - figured out that the flyer was on the off side and would jump forward to look at it. That's when I said "this isn't working."


The problem I had with it was the memory bird, the last time I ran a dog a trial on the right side, bird was thrown right long retired, bad decision, 300 yards, over ran still running. Was told by the gallery experts should have run it off the left side because it was retired. Never ran off right again. Still basic trained both sides, easy to teach, because I sold some derby dogs to two sided pros. Guess I am just not bright enough to do it on a regular basis, not training 18 to 25 big dogs a day to get proficient at it.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

jpws said:


> but never understood why a right hander would want a left healer. I'm sure there is a reason i'm not aware of. (?)


Shells eject to the right side with a right handed shotgun and vice versa for a left. You have to take in consideration the hot gases and noise coming from the shotguns ejection port, potential for burns and the dog going deaf far sooner than he normally would. The other problem is what if the dog creeps or breaks, where is the dog going to be? Thats right, possibly in the shot cone coming from the muzzle, leading to injury or death.


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## Greg Lee - Timberpond Retrievers (Mar 11, 2009)

The Master of all Pro's Mike Lardy advocates BOTH sides.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Greg Lee - Timberpond Retrievers said:


> The Master of all Pro's Mike Lardy advocates BOTH sides.


Some of us mortals are simply not as accomplished handlers as Mike so we make do the best we can.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

EdA said:


> Some of us mortals are simply not as accomplished handlers as Mike so we make do the best we can.


No one showed me the rocks when I crossed the pond and went under. We all try . Maybe some day.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Greg Lee - Timberpond Retrievers said:


> The Master of all Pro's Mike Lardy advocates BOTH sides.


Oh dear. There's really no hope for you, now is it? Rhetorically speaking, regards.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Guys this field trial judge's humor might get back. It is humor, gulp, isn't it.


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> The dogs that I had that were two sided - Ace and Zowie - figured out that the flyer was on the off side and would jump forward to look at it. That's when I said "this isn't working."


One of my dogs went BEHIND me to swing to the flyer once many moons ago. 
Just teach em to watch birds regards.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

I started my dog out when he was a pup working off of both sides and he runs equally as well on both sides. I find it comes in handy on poison bird blinds I line him up on the side the poison bird is on then after it's down I say dead and have him go to my other side to run the blind when he come back I then have him heel on the side the poison bird is and send him for that.


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## M. Robinson (Apr 13, 2011)

EdA said:


> I have a couple of good two side stories but will keep them off the forum. When two sided heeling came into vogue it was fun to sit in the gallery at the National Amateur and listen to the endless discussions among handlers about which side to run the dog from on a particular test. * I have no doubt that there is some advantage for very accomplished amateur handlers and pros but the average amateur rarely masters lining the dog up accurately on one side much less two. *The biggest advantage it seems to me is blocking the flyer which I sometimes wished I could do.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> AMEN.....I agree with Ed's whole premise but the highlights especially!!!!!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I typically teach two sided heeling but its never done a thing to improve marking. It has some slight advantages in certain concepts but it won't help the dog know where the birds are.

/Paul


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I typically teach two sided heeling but its never done a thing to improve marking. It has some slight advantages in certain concepts but it won't help the dog know where the birds are.
> 
> /Paul


Can you share those concepts?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I try to use it. I think it's helped me occasionally, for the things already mentioned. Of course there have probably been times where it hurt too. I try to do it in training enough that the dog is at least comfortable with being there. Helps in pushing a dog to the right.

You sometimes see a test where handlers think having the dog on the right is an advantage. Someone usually goes up with a one sided (left) dog and tries to get him to sit on the right, the dog sits then realizes where he is and goes to the left. Dogs that aren't used to it sure don't want to be there.

If you see he's committed to going where other dogs have headed and failed, if he won't move you can at least try the other side. Might give him a chance to see things your way. Kind of a "break the spell" thing.

Most of the big name handlers I see are usually left side only. Impressive to watch a Pro run all the dogs. I have trouble recognizing who's who, let alone remember which are two sided.

I remember reading long ago that dogs are heeled on the left because most shooters are right handed and the gun is on the right.


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## Erik Nilsson (Jan 16, 2011)

I think it advantageous with 2 sides for Honoring/working at the line or even walk ups. never know if ya get an unrully dog to go with.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

granted my guy is only 11 months and just going through TT but i have found two sided very advantageous. in doubles and triples i send him from right for right bird and left for left bird. maybe this isnt what its intended for but it works for him. when he is returning from a mark i stick my hand to the side i wont him to heal to and he does. if i dont stick my hand out (for example after picking up go bird on a triple) i let him pick the side (im assuming this is secondary selection) and line him up for that side's respective bird.

i could see later down the road where the poison bird blind heeling trick could help down the road

one question that i did think of is if on marks if after the retrieve and on his return i give him a here whistle and motion for the side i want him on is that considered handling and a fail? without a whistle is it?

i would like to know if the way im using the 2 sided is correct as well?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

I think it is advantageous, and not for blocking the flyer. that never works. It's for blocking where a dog has been ie: the young derby dog that wants to look short and to the left again at the flyer station. Step up on them for the memory bird and talk them into it. Same for an AA dog. 

When the birds are going down, and let's say you have an out of order flyer to the left, and the last bird down is to the right, you can use your leg to push their pointed little heads back to the right.... gets their attention back to the right. 

Definitely, some people are better at using it than others... and it can get a lot of over analysis. But, I want every tool in my took box I can get.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

thelast2 said:


> I would sure like to hear some thoughts from the pros, especially the added length of time teaching it. My first dog only heals to one side, but I have two others that im training two sided healing and it is definitely taking more time, and work to get a nice clean heal.


After teaching them to heel on the left, walk them down a fence line on the right - tightly. They learn it pretty quick.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

I keep reading about pushing with 2 sided dogs. Never does anybody say a thing about pulling them & I have heard that 2 sided dogs just don't pull.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

My opinion only, and you all are invited to disagree:

All 4 of my dogs that I handle on a daily basis are 2-sided. I have found it extremely easy to teach, if taught from the beginning. (only one of these runs trials. Only one is eligible. The rest are just for fun)

An older dog who is one-sided can be a real bear to teach otherwise. I don't think it is worth the effort to dog or handler.

If you take a 7 week old puppy and do all the basics yourself, and do the transition, and do the advanced training, 100% yourself, it is not a big deal. Even if you have ALWAYS done one side (with previous dog experience), you and the pup, together, will become comfortable with both sides equally, if that is how you train. I personally believe one can become quite proficient as a handler of a 2-sided dog, if they start from scratch doing it all from start to finish 2-sided with a new pup.

If you are one-sided by habit, and you have someone else help with the training, you will likely not have enough exposure to become confident and accustomed to 2-sided work. 

Chris


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## 30 caliber (Jan 28, 2008)

I like what Chris said...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I keep reading about pushing with 2 sided dogs. Never does anybody say a thing about pulling them & I have heard that 2 sided dogs just don't pull.


I'm not sure what is intended by the term "never". 

If one trains to push and pull with a 2-sided dog in training, he will likely find that his dog will push and pull in a trial. If one does not train to push and pull with a 2-sided dog then he should not expect him to do it in a trial.

I would agree, however, that if one has a 2-sided dog, they will naturally, in a trial, tend to work on a push, more than a pull since it is a more positive, strong-side move. If one only trains one-sided, they have no choice but to rely upon a pull, in situations where a 2-sided dog may not need to that as much.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Never was obviously a bad word choice. Just don't pull like they should or to the degree desired I guess would be better.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Never was obviously a bad word choice. Just don't pull like they should or to the degree desired I guess would be better.


Maybe it is because a 2-sided dog does not need the reliance on a pull that a one sided dog would. That may be one of the alleged, yet frequently unproven/uncontested benefits of 2-sided heeling.

Some like it "simple" some like more choices.

Some would consider it more "simple" to have a 2 sided dog. 

Some would consider it more "complicated" to have a 2 sided dog.

Some folks don't want to have a clutch and a standard transmission, thinking it much easier to drink a cup of coffee and just drive. They feel they have much better control. Some folks want to have a standard transmission and be able to downshift, ride the clutch, transmission break, etc. They feel they have much better control too. In the end, they are probably both right, for the way they both drive.

Neither is wrong.

There are 2-sided and 1-sided handlers/trainers that will likey accomplish more than 99.9% of us on here!


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Lonnie Spann only runs Jack from the left side.

Lonnie Spann


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

JusticeDog said:


> After teaching them to heel on the left, walk them down a fence line on the right - tightly. They learn it pretty quick.


Thanks, I will give that a try with my pup. Just to clarify it isnt so much the walking at heel that gives me the problem, its the here and getting them to sit at heal that seems to be the challenge as it is always sloppy, mostly due to dog being confused as to what im asking, just keep at it with the check cord so I can guide them until they get it down. I have worked my 2 year old CLF through it, just looking to make it as easy on myself and the dogs as possible


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Maybe it is because a 2-sided dog does not need the reliance on a pull that a one sided dog would. That may be one of the alleged, yet frequently unproven/uncontested benefits of 2-sided heeling.
> 
> Some like it "simple" some like more choices.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying 1 is right or wrong. I'm just giving my experience with dogs that are 2 sided. I am obviously 1 sided & I like it that way. If you're use to mostly pushing a 2 sided dog, wouldn't it make sense that it won't pull as well with a 1 sided handler? Just kicking around ideas is all.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I'm not saying 1 is right or wrong. I'm just giving my experience with dogs that are 2 sided. I am obviously 1 sided & I like it that way. If you're use to mostly pushing a 2 sided dog, wouldn't it make sense that it won't pull as well with a 1 sided handler? Just kicking around ideas is all.


Yes, I tried to address that in #44. I do agree with you.


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

We have been running trial dogs for over 26 years, yikes that is over a quarter century. The first three titled out as one sided, the last four titled out as two sided and I would not go back to a one sided dog. My wife does not train as much as I do but she handles them proficiently on either side even though her time training them is more restricted. Chris Atkinson has neatly laid out the who, when and how to two side a dog. The key is to start early and be consistent.


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

In the pre-Ticket days, I was a one sided handler with one sided dogs. Ticket being pro trained is 2 sided. In the beginning it was uncomfortable running her on the right. But with lots of practice, it is like any other new skill, the comfort level increases. I will never go back to being one sided. It does come in handy. But the secret is PRACTICE


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Does 'two-sided' mean that you send the dog from either right or left hand side heel? And/or have the dog heeling on either side when 'walking up'?

Every single gundog in UK, probably without exception (I've never seen otherwise) is 'one sided', in which case. Predominantly on the left, as most people will carry a gun on their right. Occasionally you see a dog on the right, for someone who is left handed.

Here, we would consider it dangerous to have a dog keep swapping sides to heel, WRT the shooting field. In Trials, which are supposed to mirror a day's shooting it isn't the 'done thing' either.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Does 'two-sided' mean that you send the dog from either right or left hand side heel? And/or have the dog heeling on either side when 'walking up'?


klm, your assumpions are correct. We don't do walk-ups in field trials, but if your dog's trained two-sided, you bring it out of the holding blind heeling on the side for the direction the go-bird will fly - if that's left to right, for example, the dog watches all the birds go down whilst on your right.

Corollary to that, for many handlers, if you are running a poison bird blind and the PB is thrown right to left, the dog comes out of the holding blind on your left, heels to the line on your left, watches the bird go down on the left, and then is "flipped" to your right side whilst you are telling the dog (quietly but emphatically) "No bird.../...dead bird." All this in sum imparts to the dog that it ain't going for a mark but a blind - and also breaks its intense focus on going for that mark.

I only flip my dogs if they are running an under-the-arc blind - otherwise, I keep them on the same side of the direction the poison bird's gone, and push or pull them as appropriate for lining past the poison bird. 

Many more accomplished handlers may have better answers for you as for the influence of two-side heeling on trials and tests, but it's a great strategem for me in heeling four dogs at a time whether living in the city or doing my own lengthy walk-up in the field for exercise or for which dog will get the call 










on being sent for a cripple goose. That's a fun little game with a lot of "positive" pressure.

MG


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks Crackerd. It is what I thought then.
Of course here, for our Field Trials, we can't possibly predict which side a bird is going to come from, or where 'poison birds' might lie, as it is all spontaneous live shooting, and pretty much anything can happen!

Following on from what you say though, when I walk more than one dog, I will often have one put itself to my right side, as it doesn't want to compete with the others to be closest to heel on the left. So, they walk with me on either side in that respect (informally taught perhaps), but in competition, always on the left.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Every single gundog in UK, probably without exception (I've never seen otherwise) is 'one sided'


By the way, there will be at least one exception back in Blighty - working with him now on conversion of the single-sided dog he's brought over (and presumably will bring back home - if the e-collar training doesn't debilitate or contaminate it first:wink. Funny thing is, the dog hasn't fought it (two-sided heeling) - the handler has. 

MG


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Thanks Crackerd. It is what I thought then.
> Of course here, for our Field Trials, we can't possibly predict which side a bird is going to come from, or where 'poison birds' might lie, as it is all spontaneous live shooting, and pretty much anything can happen!


Don't worry, Fallon's working on a clicker eyewipe mechanism:shock: even as we speak!

MG


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'm not sure what is intended by the term "never".
> 
> If one trains to push and pull with a 2-sided dog in training, he will likely find that his dog will push and pull in a trial. If one does not train to push and pull with a 2-sided dog then he should not expect him to do it in a trial.
> 
> I would agree, however, that if one has a 2-sided dog, they will naturally, in a trial, tend to work on a push, more than a pull since it is a more positive, strong-side move. If one only trains one-sided, they have no choice but to rely upon a pull, in situations where a 2-sided dog may not need to that as much.


Being relatively new to field trial training, I always heeled on both sides. Until MG mentioned it, I never thought about the ease of heeling 4 dogs, two on each side. Mine just do it because they are comfortable on either side. 

On training and trialing, for me, the primary situation where the side dog is on makes a big difference in dog behavior is angle entry water blinds. Sent from the side with the water my dogs tend to get in fatter. Sent from the side away from the water they tend to get in thinner. I have probably trained that inadvertently and could get the desired results from a one-sided dog. 

On marking tests, if the dog is really interested in a particular bird, I can push it by stepping up easier than pulling it by stepping back. Especially when the dog must swing through the flyer station to another bird before the flyer is shot. ie; the birds go down left, right, middle flyer. I put the dog on the side that gives me the best chance of moving it through the marks as they fall regardless of the direction the bird is thrown. I have not been able to discern a difference in dog behavior or performance sending for subsequent birds except maybe holding a hillside or getting in thinner/fatter on a long entry.


In training I always put the dog on the side corresponding to which direction the go bird is thrown. As I write this I am not sure why since I should be working on strengthening our weakness in moving smoothly through the sequence of falls regardless of which side the dog is on.

Sometimes, if the dog just does not get the picture, will not listen, or cannot focus, switching to the other side helps get their head back in it.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

For years I've read the almost annual debate about two-sided (or not). At first it was rather intimidating to read experts say things like it is not necessary and supported by very specific, logical opinions. How could a new trainer consider ignoring the advice of someone that is more successful than I would ever be? Then again the number of exceptional trainers that use two-side techniques entered the discussions. 

The task became what should I do? Picking is more of a function of perspectives and who you are. 

I suppose the one factor that had me picking two-sided was I had golfed right handed for years. Then I fell on some steps, hit my right rib cage toward the back and although it healed, swinging right handed was extremely painful.

In desperation (being a golf nut), I tried to swing left handed. Surprisingly, there was no pain. At first, becoming a lefty was very difficult. After a few months, it was easier......mostly because I had no bad habits in my new swing. Since my big banana slice was no longer an issue, there was a built in incentive. My putting was still right handed and all went well. All this is meant to suggest that decisions are usually made by what you are comfortable with. Training a puppy to heel on both sides would be simple (in comparison). 

On the other side of the coin, many are driven by the KISS principle. One-sided seems simpler which makes for a comfortable justification. Once the choice is made the normal progression is to use the supporting rationale. I am comfortable with mine. 

I've read all the reasons why two sided is "good". One that I have not read (see edit below) has become a valuable application with one of my dogs. Kooly is just too intense at the line to the point of being vocal. In the moment, he can be extremely unresponsive. "Here"/"heal" (to the other side) and even maybe running a blind before he picks up the mark allows me to get back into his head. It can increase a dog's responsiveness. 

edit: Just before posting I read Sabireley's post.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

crackerd said:


> By the way, there will be at least one exception back in Blighty - working with him now on conversion of the single-sided dog he's brought over (and presumably will bring back home - if the e-collar training doesn't debilitate or contaminate it first:wink. Funny thing is, the dog hasn't fought it (two-sided heeling) - the handler has.
> 
> MG



Yes, I'm sure the dog doesn't give too hoots. The boring old staid judges/fellow competitors will frown at him if he tries to trial it over here though! LOL


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I keep reading about pushing with 2 sided dogs. Never does anybody say a thing about pulling them & I have heard that 2 sided dogs just don't pull.


Jacob, this sounds like something Danny said. I know he told me the same thing.
I have sold two young dogs to Danny that I trained up until approx. 18 months. Both were two sided when I sold them. Danny promptly turned them into one-sided only!!


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I keep reading about pushing with 2 sided dogs. Never does anybody say a thing about pulling them & I have heard that 2 sided dogs just don't pull.


My dog is a 2-sided heeler and I can pull her in a 360* circle on the line if needed. It comes down to what the handler is comfortable with teaching and what they are comfortable doing when handling. If dog and handler are both comfortable with it, there is no question in my mind that it's an advantage.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

I guess it all depends on what you are successful doing. While this thread makes me feel like a fossil I will be in Wisconsin in June (National Amateur) with a few other lowly one siders...;-)


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

The only reason a 2-side heeler wouldn't pull readily is if the trainer simply didn't do the training for it. It's easy. We teach pull the same place as we teach push; Wagon Wheel Lining drill. Simple.

Evan


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

EdA said:


> I guess it all depends on what you are successful doing. While this thread makes me feel like a fossil I will be in Wisconsin in June (National Amateur) with a few other lowly one siders...;-)


This kind of puts it all in perspective...


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

My 3yo is two sided started from a puppy. No issues. I see it as an advantage. Practice both sides when we are out!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

*WWWD?*










After all he was on _*both*_ sides of the bench...

(but not with a bulldog).

MG


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

crackerd said:


> *WWWD?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All politicians are fence sitters. Depends on which side lines their pocket's best!IMHO


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Or who's doing the more influential pushing or pulling?

MG


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

EdA said:


> I guess it all depends on what you are successful doing. While this thread makes me feel like a fossil I will be in Wisconsin in June (National Amateur) with a few other lowly one siders...;-)


Ed, come out early judging the limited for Blackhawk on the grounds where the National Amat. Will be held. You will be deep in two sided country.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

If the dog is on the right side You guy's cast off with the right Hand,and When the dog is on the left side You guy's cast off with the left hand. (from what I've noticed)
'Traditionally over here) as Kim has stated, we are more left side Dog , with a ''Right hand line up and cast'' on a blind.!....Is there any advantage/dis-advantage?..Presuming that the dog's 'Spine' and 'head' are lined up.?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> If the dog is on the right side You guy's cast off with the right Hand,and When the dog is on the left side You guy's cast off with the left hand. (from what I've noticed)
> 'Traditionally over here) as Kim has stated, we are more left side Dog , with a ''Right hand line up and cast'' on a blind.!....Is there any advantage/dis-advantage?..Presuming that the dog's 'Spine' and 'head' are lined up.?


Whoa..whoa...whoa - as they say in pointing dogs, Robt. (if they're not already *singing* to them, of course)

Our cast-offs are more a matter of dropping a hand down just over the dog's head to "tell" the dog it's locked in and going in the right direction. The hand doesn't come down until then.

(Hey, I was the worst "cast-off" offender ever - well, except for you lot, for whom it ain't an offense but a method - until I learned differently.) But the operative question in your reply is "Presuming the dog's spine and head are lined up." Yes is the answer. But we're pointing the dog, not propelling it.

MG


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

For you guys in the UK we do not send the dog to retrieve with a sweeping motion "cast" with the arm as you do. Rather we typically insure dog is looking in direction where bird fell, place hand above dogs eyes as a cue he is looking where we want, then we use voice to send, hand stays still. Usually
here is and example. dog is being send for last bird of a triple which is the long retired gun up the middle. Dog has already retrieved a bird on the left and on the right. The way this handler sends his dog is typical at US field trials.

http://classic.akc.org/videos/events/field_trials/retrievers/narc/2006/eighth_81_2.swf

See this second video link to see how birds were first shot and dog retrieving go bird flyer on left. Cant see hand in this one.
http://classic.akc.org/videos/events/field_trials/retrievers/narc/2006/eighth_81.swf


this is site with info for the entire event the videos came from.
http://classic.akc.org/events/field_trials/retrievers/narc/2006/index.cfm


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## dr tim (Feb 11, 2013)

This is really interesting learning how this works. Thanks.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Cheers MG and Breck.
Maybe I never explained 'explicitly' enough?
I hear you, with regard to that 'sweeping motion'! ..A 'pet hate' of mine when I see it!!(Every movement is like a distraction!, I am amazed how the dog's actually go out sometimes)
I was curious more as to 'Which Arm/Hand attached to it 'Cracker'd'  Is more beneficial ?..as Breck ''_Pointed Out_''..The action of the hand is merely a 'Trigger/cue' ,rather than a 'Directional aid?....Which many over here perceive.?
The timing of the thread on here,was parallel thinking to a client with a young dog we had here today which was progressing to doubles and triples with distraction(poison birds I think you call them),anyhow,the young dog was always focussed on the poison bird (using traditional UK Right Hand/Arm cast) and the dog/Handler failed on every attempt!, Until I suggested positioning the dog on the ''Blind Side'' of the distraction (Poison bird) ,and use the 'Other arm' for direction to the blind!...worked every time!
....
Of course ,in this situation/scenario, I believe the 'Line up drills' and earlier training had been done on 'Marks' rather than 'Blinds'...Just curious......Every day is a learning day.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Of course ,in this situation/scenario, I believe the 'Line up drills' and earlier training had been done on 'Marks' rather than 'Blinds'...Just curious......Every day is a learning day.


Bless you, Robt., 'tis indeed. The hand that is dropped down over the dog's eyes as cue is always the same hand as the side the dog's running from. 

Back to the thread topic: You may have noted that the mentor of our buddy, Farmboy Brian, has been prominently mentioned in this thread for how he does it - hugely successful in trials like almost nobody else.

MG


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

With dog on Left, we would never reach over with the Right hand to send the dog.
(there are exceptions. We may have hold of a pinch collar rope tab with left hand. If one was to let go of tab to send dog with left hand the rope would fall on dogs neck giving an early cue so to speak. So, holding tab with left we may reach over and send dog with right hand in training only)

I'm fairly certain that we do not do poison birds on double or triple retrieves as you do. Normally our poison birds are associated with blind retrieves.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> With dog on Left, we would never reach over with the Right hand to send the dog.


That's my ''Thinking'' Breck?..
Sorry if I am '_Pulling_' the original posters thread away from what they asked.
This ''Difference'' in early training of 'Body language' with the dog (over here) I believe is responsible for many a failed retrieves in training,as much/many are looking at getting the dummy/bumper ,rather than the 'Process of how you get the dummy'. In many way's actually setting the dog to fail even before it has started.
...
I have a couple of young students(dogs) that I will be 'embarking' on training/conditioning the 'merican ways' ! this spring/summer, So Both sided ,and 'Line up position of handler/dog' will be on the Agenda!.Thanks
...
MG, Say hello to that '_Farmer Boy_' ..Gee ,Miss his '_Craic'_..


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Yes, I tried to address that in #44. I do agree with you.


I'm sorry. Long hours @ work & working nights got to me I suppose. 



EdA said:


> I guess it all depends on what you are successful doing. While this thread makes me feel like a fossil I will be in Wisconsin in June (National Amateur) with a few other lowly one siders...;-)


I donno how that National Finalist has a chance with such a handicap. I guess you & the other 1 sided National (National Am too.) Finalists will have to make do. ;-);-)


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> I guess it all depends on what you are successful doing. While this thread makes me feel like a fossil I will be in Wisconsin in June (National Amateur) with a few other lowly one siders...;-)


If I thought it would get my dog to a National, I'd emulate all that I could about what you and your fellow contestants do.

I'm sure not saying that 2-sided is better. I'm just saying that I personally am giving it a try and enjoying it.

Chris


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Chris Atkinson said:


> If I thought it would get my dog to a National, I'd emulate all that I could about what you and your fellow contestants do.
> 
> I'm sure not saying that 2-sided is better. I'm just saying that I personally am giving it a try and enjoying it.
> 
> Chris


Sorry, off topic here Chris, but I can see it again in your Avatar, so just have to ask you. What is that orange stick-thing coming out of your armpit? Saw it in your video of sending too, and nobody enlightened me. Just curious what it is/what it's used for?.... not seen anything like it before. thanks


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Not Chris but this is the orange thingie.
http://www.dogsafield.com/Days-End-Original-Pro-Heeling-Stick/productinfo/R001-085/
It's used to communicate with hindquarter.
Edit
You can also use it to tap on the chest


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

kennel maiden said:


> Sorry, off topic here Chris, but I can see it again in your Avatar, so just have to ask you. What is that orange stick-thing coming out of your armpit? Saw it in your video of sending too, and nobody enlightened me. Just curious what it is/what it's used for?.... not seen anything like it before. thanks


Breck showed you what it is..

You can see it's application in Chris's (lab) video at about 1:35


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Sorry, off topic here Chris, but I can see it again in your Avatar, so just have to ask you. What is that orange stick-thing coming out of your armpit? Saw it in your video of sending too, and nobody enlightened me. Just curious what it is/what it's used for?.... not seen anything like it before. thanks


I call it a "sit stick" because that is what I picked up from James B. Spencer's book "TRAINING RETRIEVERS FOR THE MARSHES AND MEADOWS". But most folks, call it a "heeling stick".

Kennel Maiden, are you in the UK or Europe? What sorts of retriever work/games/events do you do?

http://www.dogsafield.com/Days-End-Original-Pro-Heeling-Stick/productinfo/R001-085/


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

EdA said:


> If I was ambidextrous I might give it a try but after forty years I am not always accurate on one side, pushing and pulling from the left has served me well, why change now?


cuz if it aint broke, dont fix it right?!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Breck said:


> Not Chris but this is the orange thingie.
> http://www.lcsupply.com/Pro-Healing-Stick/productinfo/PHSTK/
> 
> It's used to communicate with hindquarter.


Not off-topic at all, km - if you use it to communicate with the front quarters and to _*shape*_ heeling.

Now please answer Mr. Atkinson's question(s)

MG


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

crackerd said:


> Not off-topic at all, km - if you use it to communicate with the front quarters and to _*shape*_ heeling.
> 
> Now please answer Mr. Atkinson's question(s)
> 
> MG


Ken Bora calls it an "extension of your arm". I tend to like that.

I know for a fact that certain UK trainers who are successful in field trials carry a fan belt that's been cut into a straight piece, in their training bag. They have used it in place of a heeling stick. They've admitted it to me face-to-face and I have no reason to doubt that they were telling the truth.

I will say that in my Avatar picture and in those videos, I'm using it poorly. In the Avatar, I've got it in the wrong hand. In the video, I'm frequently waving it around, rather than holding it up and out of the way on my shoulder out of pup's peripheral view.

In Lardy's Volume I articles, you can see a sit stick in nearly all of the pics. I have gotten in a habit of this: If I'm training, I have a sit stick in my hand...period. At this point I rarely use it. I just carry it to feel "balanced" most of the time.

Chris


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Dont think I saw this on here yet- if I missed it- oopsie my bad..
So, for the handlers who use two sided heeling, is the command the same for both sides ?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Man oh man, heeling sticks and two sided heeling, this stuff is complicated...;-)


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

EdA said:


> Man oh man, heeling sticks and two sided heeling, this stuff is complicated...;-)


And 3 dog collars, winger remotes, radios... Starting to look like Kevin Costner on Tin Cup with all these contraptions!


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I like Illinois Bob's avatar.

That's how I line my dogs.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> Man oh man, heeling sticks and two sided heeling, this stuff is complicated...;-)


It's all in the instructional material I'm following.

I'm not saying it is better or right. 

But I'm having fun with it and it is right for me.

Chris


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Who would have thought of using a whistle to stop a dog prior to 'yelling at it'?
Just because something has been done for 40 years doesn't mean it's right or wrong?...But it does deserve the Right ,to be 'Better'.Or Not!..Try it ,work at it, use it ,test it,Or Not.
Jeezus, I don't even use e-collar!! and I'm havin a go! ...I'll let you know when it ?.........Well ,I am sure there are plenty that will tell you before then


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

What?
It's hard enough understanding you guys from across the pond when you're not being cryptic.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

No kidding!!!!!


breck said:


> what?
> It's hard enough understanding you guys from across the pond when you're not being cryptic.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Robt.'s saying he plans to use this year's bonus from the laird to outfit all his friends with e-collars and heeling sticks - and of course pink Dallesasse whistles, which they will blow 'til their hearts' content when Hearts of Midlothian win the Scottish Cup again. Go you Glorious Jambos!

MG


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK Thanks Mike, you're a big help! sic


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> It's all in the instructional material I'm following.
> 
> I'm not saying it is better or right.
> 
> ...


Chris, dog training is not rigid, there is not one way, a right way, or a wrong way. There are some fundamental principles common to all good dog trainers. If the successful two sided trainers and the successful one sided trainers changed philosophy I expect the results would be the same.

Your new RTF has a high percentage of naive and inexperienced people and I think it is important that they understand that success is not only based on certain sound training principles but also the application of those principles. If I was a naive newcomer and read this dissertation I would conclude that success in field trials was only possible by using two sided heeling and employing a heeling stick in training. If anyone trained with my group they would not see two sided heeling and might only see a heeling stick a few times a year. I have several heeling sticks but I do not remember the last time I used one for anything other than dragging something out of my toolbox that I could not reach. 

Almost everyone who trains competition retrievers successfully follows a sequential process adapted to their own personality and preferences. We all train similar but very dissimilar in the way we apply corrections, lack of corrections, and praise.

My intent is not to dismiss what others do or impose on their routine what I/we do but rather to inform the uninformed that there is more than one way to skin a critter. Just MHO and thanks for reading!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

DR ED GETS A PRIZE!! Great Post Doc!!


EdA said:


> Chris, dog training is not rigid, there is not one way, a right way, or a wrong way. There are some fundamental principles common to all good dog trainers. If the successful two sided trainers and the successful one sided trainers changed philosophy I expect the results would be the same.
> 
> Your new RTF has a high percentage of naive and inexperienced people and I think it is important that they understand that success is not only based on certain sound training principles but also the application of those principles. If I was a naive newcomer and read this dissertation I would conclude that success in field trials was only possible by using two sided heeling and employing a heeling stick in training. If anyone trained with my group they would not see two sided heeling and might only see a heeling stick a few times a year. I have several heeling sticks but I do not remember the last time I used one for anything other than dragging something out of my toolbox that I could not reach.
> 
> ...


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

There is one practical aspect of two sided heeling. When duck hunting the door to the blind is not always on the left side. If you have a two sided dog it works much better in my opinion for this. 

I have never had a two sided dog but I am trying to teach Rowdy two sides. I started learning the two sided technique with Hank (my sons dog). Both seem to be doing well with it.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

EdA said:


> Chris, dog training is not rigid, there is not one way, a right way, or a wrong way. There are some fundamental principles common to all good dog trainers. If the successful two sided trainers and the successful one sided trainers changed philosophy I expect the results would be the same.
> 
> Your new RTF has a high percentage of naive and inexperienced people and I think it is important that they understand that success is not only based on certain sound training principles but also the application of those principles. If I was a naive newcomer and read this dissertation I would conclude that success in field trials was only possible by using two sided heeling and employing a heeling stick in training. If anyone trained with my group they would not see two sided heeling and might only see a heeling stick a few times a year. I have several heeling sticks but I do not remember the last time I used one for anything other than dragging something out of my toolbox that I could not reach.
> 
> ...



Great post Dr. Ed..................The mental state of RTF is well and alive..

You just need to know where to look


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> There is one practical aspect of two sided heeling. When duck hunting the door to the blind is not always on the left side. If you have a two sided dog it works much better in my opinion for this.
> 
> I have never had a two sided dog but I am trying to teach Rowdy two sides. I started learning the two sided technique with Hank (my sons dog). Both seem to be doing well with it.


This is true. I use to teach all my dogs 2 sided but Mr. Yozamp has converted me and my dogs to one sided. I do teach all of them the term "place" for the hunting blind issue.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

crackerd said:


> Robt.'s saying he plans to use this year's bonus from the laird to outfit all his friends with e-collars and heeling sticks - and of course pink Dallesasse whistles, which they will blow 'til their hearts' content when Hearts of Midlothian win the Scottish Cup again. Go you Glorious Jambos!
> 
> MG


Have you been hangin out with Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, and Janis Joplin?


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I think that there are more one sided and two sided people than dogs.

When asked, a successful Pro told me you can run your dog from between your legs if he knows where the bird is...


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> Chris, dog training is not rigid, there is not one way, a right way, or a wrong way. There are some fundamental principles common to all good dog trainers. If the successful two sided trainers and the successful one sided trainers changed philosophy I expect the results would be the same.
> 
> Your new RTF has a high percentage of naive and inexperienced people and I think it is important that they understand that success is not only based on certain sound training principles but also the application of those principles. *If I was a naive newcomer and read this dissertation I would conclude that success in field trials was only possible by using two sided heeling and employing a heeling stick in training*. If anyone trained with my group they would not see two sided heeling and might only see a heeling stick a few times a year. I have several heeling sticks but I do not remember the last time I used one for anything other than dragging something out of my toolbox that I could not reach.
> 
> ...


Dr. Ed,

I've gone back and read this entire thread, post by post. I do not understand how anyone could come out of this thread interpreting the sentence I've highlighted in black.

I believe that it is extremely well balanced with some liking it one way, some liking it another.

The only reason the sit stick came up was someone asked what it was. 

I've never gotten my dog to the water marks in an all age trial. I'm sure as heck not trying to say that what I do is going to get me or anyone else to the Nationals.

I'm just trying to have fun and be helpful where I can.

Chris


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Criquetpas said:


> Ed, come out early judging the limited for Blackhawk on the grounds where the National Amat. Will be held. You will be deep in two sided country.


Earl - several years back a dog from your area was sent to one of the local trainers - I think the dog was a National Derby Champion - The dog was a nice size, nice looking, nice moving animal & completed his FC here - Several of the locals bred to the dog & got some fairly nice pups - In training I never saw the dog run from both sides but did notice that the owner attended a local trial & could not seem to leave the dog on the truck - the owner's contribution was to get the dog out of the truck & & practice 2 sided heeling. I also noticed the dog never got the AFC, in fact, don't believe the dog ever placed in an AM. As has been posted by several here, a tool is only useful in a skilled mechanic's hands .


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Let me repeat: There is a conceptual advantage to the two sided dog. However, I have only seen a handful of people who are able to actualize that advantage.

Over the years, I have competed against many handlers, and judged many handlers. Very few are competent on one side, let alone two. 

Yes, I know many of you say that you and your dog are competent on both sides. I will simply say that my personal experience differs. 

Many people think that they are masters, very few are.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Marvin, I believe it was FC Topgun Able Oakley owned by John Haight. John is a member of our local club. I trained with John when Oakley was about 9 months old and he was going bird for bird as singles with several field champions including mine. John was very involved in his business at the time and had limited time. He put the dog with Pro Andy Attar for training, the dog was two sided at the time. I had a derby dog at the time and ran against Oakley many times.
John Ran him sometimes as did his trainer Andy Attar. He became National Derby Champion, then developed a terrible spinning problem on water. I was training with John and watched him spin about 50 yards across a piece of water. It was a case in my opinion that he , John, against the advice of his pro, to chase derby points rather then bring him along on blinds and all age training. He was sent out West and I think Don trained him and made his FC. He had a old shoulder injury that got worse. Trained with John some and as I remember he was one sided. His AFC alluded him and he was retired. He was in my opinion the greatest water quad dog I ever saw run, but, had blind issues. So your point I guess one sided two sided etc is just a tool.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Marvin, went back and read your post, yeah I remember John doing the two sided shuffle at a trial before he ran Him.
I call it the forced march, some just march back and forth, sometimes with stick up. John did the shuffle. I used to throw 4 very short bumpers before I ran, not five not three but four. It could be along side road or where the truck was parked. John did the shuffle. P.S. Don't throw the bumpers anymore.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Breck said:


> What?
> It's hard enough understanding you guys from across the pond when you're not being cryptic.


Don't worry, we can't understand Polmaise over here either, and we are the 'same side of the pond' LOL! 

Okay, to answer Chris's question to me first: I am mainly involved in Field Trials here (that is my focus), but I also pick up on shoots and do a limited amount of game shooting over my own dogs in the season. Out of season, summer, I do the odd working test, just as a marker of how training is going and where we are at, and to give the dogs exposure on different ground under 'pressure' of competition.

Heeling stick/sit stick - okay, it looks like a riding crop! I'm getting the picture. Not going to go there, and WRT 'fan belts', do cars still have these nowadays??.. Anyway, I don't think what you described with the fan belt thing is a training aid, but more something to inflict punishment on a wayward dog. Antiquated...

Are you allowed to use a 'heeling stick' in competition too, or is it merely a training aid?

Lining - as Polmaise said, over here, dog on the left and lined up with right arm/hand showing direction. No 'sweeping movement'. Pet hate of mine too. Arm should stay still steady, giving dog a good line/point of reference, and the voice is what sends the dog...

Interesting to see the differences. All seem to work, and there are bits we can take from each other I am sure. That's why I am here - to improve my knowledge and learning...

Thanks.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Interesting to see the differences. All seem to work, and there are bits we can take from each other...


km, here's a poser I never got a really satisfactory answer for over your way: Why do y'all find it necessary to thrust your right arm upward as you blow the sit or stop whistle since the dog will be obeying the whistle anyhow and oughtn't have need to see you give what seems to me a redundant visual command?

Reason I'm asking is again the expat I'm working with showed off his young dog's blind running skills and as the dog went off-line (and started hunting) about 25 yards out, he automatically did the upraised arm thingy as he blew his (Green Monster;-)) whistle.

The overarching question for me is do you use the same upraised arm for a back cast, or do you just give a verbal "Back!" and hope that the dog takes it?

My young chap by the way is into his first week of FTP with e-collar and making good steam with his Americanized training.

MG


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

crackerd said:


> km, here's a poser I never got a really satisfactory answer for over your way: Why do y'all find it necessary to thrust your right arm upward as you blow the sit or stop whistle since the dog will be obeying the whistle anyhow and oughtn't have need to see you give what seems to me a redundant visual command?
> 
> Reason I'm asking is again the expat I'm working with showed off his young dog's blind running skills and as the dog went off-line (and started hunting) about 25 yards out, he automatically did the upraised arm thingy as he blew his (Green Monster;-)) whistle.
> 
> ...


Ok, yes I would expect dog to operate purely on aural signal of whistle and stop on this alone (We can test this in various ways). This is especially important if a dog goes over a high stone wall and needs to be stopped the other side and hunt for a bird dropped just over the wall, or when working in high cover or in a wood out of sight. When I blow my whistle, I KNOW my dog has stopped regardless of whether it can see me and my arm!

So, the visual signal of the arm in the air is so the dog can pick the handler out from what could potentially be a huge line of people all wearing khaki/olive/neutral shooting clothes and all looking largely the same. I don't know if you have seen any of the IGL Championship videos, but if you look at the walked up line, there will be at least 20-40 people in that line (comprising 4 judges, 4 handlers/dogs, 6-8 guns, game carriers, stewards/helpers and press). So, taking a step forward of the line and having a raised arm helps the dog pick you out in that lot!

Same goes on static tests I guess, where you are wearing green against a green background, standing next to the judge who is also in green and the same coat as you probably, and a steward... it is a visual aid to the dog.

So, the hand up once the dog is stopped is then ready to move neatly into a cast to wherever you want the dog to go next. Dropped down to the right for sideways, or push up higher for back, or dropped down in front for hunting. 

Again, in answer to your question about back. Yes, we use a pushing up/back movement (starting at stop, which is just above face height and pushing up to full arm extension - + variations on this). Likewise, I make sure my dogs will go back purely on vocal command 'back' also, again for when they are working out of sight, or at v long distance.

HTH,
KM

PS. Green monster? Don't think he got that in UK?!!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Ta, TM - much appreciated. Guess a handler sneaking an England cricket jumper or the traditional English Rose rugger shirt into the FT walk-up line as "shooting clothes" is out of the question then? Then again, I'd trade you a couple of Green Monsters for a well-broken in Barbour Beaufort...

MG


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

crackerd said:


> Ta, TM - much appreciated. Guess a handler sneaking an England cricket jumper or the traditional English Rose rugger shirt into the FT walk-up line as "shooting clothes" is out of the question then? Then again, I'd trade you a couple of Green Monsters for a well-broken in Barbour Beaufort...
> 
> MG


Yes, very strict dress ettiquette for these events, out of 'respect for the host' (and the birds etc), and deeply rooted in tradition. All clothing should be 'country clothing' and in muted colours (olive/brown/tweeds). We even had a missive from 'on high' after one particular Championship where one competitor wore 'unsuitable headgear'.... White or light coloured baseball caps (or baseball caps full stop TBH) are out. Tweed is de riguer. 

Summer working tests are a lot more relaxed though, as this is not shooting-proper, but just dummy tests.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Yes, very strict dress ettiquette for these events, out of 'respect for the host' (and the birds etc), and deeply rooted in tradition. All clothing should be 'country clothing' and in muted colours (olive/brown/tweeds). We even had a missive from 'on high' after one particular Championship where one competitor wore 'unsuitable headgear'.... White or light coloured baseball caps (or baseball caps full stop TBH) are out. Tweed is de riguer.


Doggone it - I'd just thought of something should your venerable tradition, like, take a hike. Have the greatest respect for it, but if y'all ever came over to our way of field trialing, 










betcha Dickie Bird could have a boot sale and outfit every handler in the British Isles.

MG


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## Codatango (Aug 2, 2009)

I have a 14 mo old that was taught 2 sided - thought I'd give it whirl. I had to when doing agility and I am somewhat ambidextrous. Started when I got him and shaped the behaviors with food as a baby.
Used it through yard work. Went to day train with a pro at 13 mo and no one was using 2 sides, so I thought that I'd just do the left, since that was the comfort zone and I was now being 'watched'. 

So far, the point I would like to make is that I can pass another dog and handler on a path or sidewalk and I can put my dog on the right so dogs are not passing next to each other. You can't trust the neighborhood dogs nor their owners, and it's just safer at an event to avoid eye contact with other dogs.

AND, in yard work, if I was concentrating on one side that day, he would tell me that he was a little stressed by returning on the opposite side from where my hand was signaling. I know no one knows how I train, but suffice it to say these were not forcing sessions, just the usual drills. (I teach before correcting and give the dog the benefit of the doubt)

I have never started a post, but I kept thinking that this would have been the one I would have asked - "when to use right side heeling?"

For me, it has the other advantages listed above, even if I use it little. As the dog matures, I might find that his pull is stronger than his push, or vice/versa, for subtle changes in lining. Who knows!

Debbie Tandoc
San Jose, CA


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I've been gone for a few days, so haven't kept up on every post, but I'll tell you my experience. My first two dogs were one sided (left), then midway through my second dog's career my training group and I got the Lardy tapes. Needless to say we were all very impressed and strongly influenced by Lardy, so adopted a lot of the Lardy approach, things like cueing "easy" and "way out" on short and long birds, soft no-hand down send on a check down, lowder send with the hand down for those big punch birds, and heeling on the right for birds thrown to the right, left for birds thrown left.

Now over fifteen years later I still train two sided but have noticed a few things, these are my observations only, Ed has way more experience than me and way more sucess, so take it as you will:

1) I am now dubious about whether my dogs actually relate running off the one side or the other to which way the bird was thrown, even non retired up guns. 

2) This is contrary to what some others have posted, but I find it just as easy to pull or push from either side.

3) I am almost always more able to fine tune a precise line by gently pulling rather than pushing.

4) Again contrary to what some have posted; I find that I can get better down the shore slices into the water by heeling on the water side and pulling my dog down the shore. This is only true for the advanced dogs, younger dogs who tend to go fat anyway, would probably not be able to "pull" down the shore for that skinny entry.

5) Even though I have been two sided heeling forever, I am personally more comfortable lining my dog up on blinds off my left side, so I run blinds off my left side 70%. This might be a vicious circle thing as I have training partners who are adept at both because they do both equally.

6) The most useful practical purpose for two sided heeling is the ability to block a flyer. To me it is worth training for this reason alone.

Bottom line for me is two sided heeling isn't the panacea we all thought when we first watched the Lardy tapes back in the mid ninties, but it has proven to be useful so I continue to train for it and use it often.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

John Robinson said:


> I've been gone for a few days, so haven't kept up on every post, but I'll tell you my experience. My first two dogs were one sided (left), then midway through my second dog's career my training group and I got the Lardy tapes. Needless to say we were all very impressed and strongly influenced by Lardy, so adopted a lot of the Lardy approach, things like cueing "easy" and "way out" on short and long birds, soft no-hand down send on a check down, lowder send with the hand down for those big punch birds, and heeling on the right for birds thrown to the right, left for birds thrown left.
> 
> Now over fifteen years later I still train two sided but have noticed a few things, these are my observations only, Ed has way more experience than me and way more sucess, so take it as you will:
> 
> ...


Im pretty much in agreement with this.
I would also add on the down the shore stuff, while ideally you want them to take the correct angled entry line; it is my experience that if I dont get the exact line, I would much prefer the first cast to be towards the water. If the first cast is away from water it seems to confuse the dog and the blind will invariably be choppier


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

EdA said:


> Chris, dog training is not rigid, there is not one way, a right way, or a wrong way. There are some fundamental principles common to all good dog trainers. If the successful two sided trainers and the successful one sided trainers changed philosophy I expect the results would be the same.
> 
> Your new RTF has a high percentage of naive and inexperienced people and I think it is important that they understand that success is not only based on certain sound training principles but also the application of those principles. If I was a naive newcomer and read this dissertation I would conclude that success in field trials was only possible by using two sided heeling and employing a heeling stick in training. If anyone trained with my group they would not see two sided heeling and might only see a heeling stick a few times a year. I have several heeling sticks but I do not remember the last time I used one for anything other than dragging something out of my toolbox that I could not reach.
> 
> ...


I am not sure I would have gotten from this thread that the way to go is two sided and use a heeling stick. I conclude either way and what ever is comfy and suitable for you and your dog go for it!Be consistent. I use 2 sided for agility and it was a big help in HRC so I have carried it over to our foray in FT. But my dogs were started as pups. IMHO


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I thought my post required explanation 'Breck' .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc2i3XbMPNQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JzWebNkx50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ySpdpagN0E


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK havin' a look.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Video 1
Well done.
I can't make out the end of the field in the video.
I assume this is a Taught or Known or Sight blind as we call them not a cold blind? That is, dog has been there before or there is a visible marker. If this was a cold blind where dog that dog has never seen or run before I would say Very good job.
My only comment would be, it is far more desirable to have dog looking out in the field, keen to identify what you intend to show him. If dog is looking up at you makes things difficult.
I assume you train puppies with treats. At 7 months of age or when ever you get down to serious business, time to stop giving treats all together except when dog is done and walking back to kennel. 
Are they looking up at you for a reason other than cookies?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK
Video 2
Stop the video at 1:52.
Draw a line up dogs spine from base of tail to neck.
Where does this line point in relation to dummy? At the low mountain on the left I think.
Try bringing dog to you vs leaning into dog.
When spine is lined up with dummy and dog is looking that direction, send.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

By the way your dogs look very nice indeed? I'll have 2.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> Video 1
> Well done.
> I can't make out the end of the field in the video.
> I assume this is a Taught or Known or Sight blind as we call them not a cold blind? That is, dog has been there before or there is a visible marker. If this was a cold blind where dog that dog has never seen or run before I would say Very good job.
> ...


Never had a treat in their lives. Don't train that way.They do come like a steam train to food bowl at chow time though
The pup had been training on marks at different areas in that field all morning and Yes! had been sent there earlier in the day.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK Video 3
Hee hee 
Interesting dog stayed closer to you on the right side send vs left.
With dog on left if you were to try and make dog more comfortable being close to you it would be helpful.
With dog at heel, over here anyway, it is nice if dogs neck/collar is nearly touching your pants leg. Their front foot inches from yours.
Not sure if that position works for what you do.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

polmaise said:


> I thought my post required explanation 'Breck' .
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc2i3XbMPNQ
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JzWebNkx50
> ...


Polmaise, thanks that was great. I might have a play with this too. I'm currently reworking on lining with one of mine, who steps out to the side a bit when focusing on the line. I can see yours does it a little too. Almost a product of right hand lining on left side as dog had to take a line off the hand to the 'object' in the distance from a different point of view than us.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK
Can you explain what you do in training that makes dog keen to look up at you?
Over here, that only time my dog looks at me is when returning to heel with bird.
With dog at heel like in your videos, my dog would be scanning the field trying to sort out where the guns were or what have you.
We do a fair amount of specific training to teach dog to look out into field, as that's where the birds are.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> OK
> Video 2
> Stop the video at 1:52.
> Draw a line up dogs spine from base of tail to neck.
> ...


After todays first attempt at the new line line up position, I was more intent to get the first base in, regarding the hand over the head for these pups, but Yes agree with the point.That's why videoing yourself is a good idea for any handler/trainer....Not an excuse!, but as these 'traditional British' style dogs had been previously conditioned to a different line up and cast off drill,I think they were 'shying' away?..which I am sure will rectify through repetition . ps No-Collar training, No clicker,just plain old Retriever.
Thanks for your comments much appreciated


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> OK Video 3
> Hee hee
> Interesting dog stayed closer to you on the right side send vs left.
> With dog on left if you were to try and make dog more comfortable being close to you it would be helpful.
> ...


Ha Ha. Had a laugh at that one too!! I think she was a bit confused with the change in what she had been conditioned for to be fair,poor girl being used as a 'Guinea Pig', but it showed me 'They will adapt' to changes in their training ! 'If the end goal is the same'? (for them)..


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> OK
> Can you explain what you do in training that makes dog keen to look up at you?
> Over here, that only time my dog looks at me is when returning to heel with bird.
> With dog at heel like in your videos, my dog would be scanning the field trying to sort out where the guns were or what have you.
> We do a fair amount of specific training to teach dog to look out into field, as that's where the birds are.


That's not a drill or exercise on it's own Breck,and would take far too much explaining and I would probably end up writing a book (god forbid)


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

OK
I understand. Pretty good work really.
If you put your dog through our Wagon Wheel lining drill and get that sorted out you can get a bit more advanced doing precise lining drills to visible targets like in this drawing.
Dogs really get jacked up doing this drill.







.
.
.
LH this field might be good for a lining drill
.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Breck said:


> OK
> I understand. Pretty good work really.
> If you put your dog through our Wagon Wheel lining drill and get that sorted out you can get a bit more advanced doing precise lining drills to visible targets like in this drawing.
> Dogs really get jacked up doing this drill.
> ...


Breck, you're about a mile out!!! But nice detective work. Although I feel like I've got a stalker now. LOL


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Breck said:


> OK
> Can you explain what you do in training that makes dog keen to look up at you?
> Over here, that only time my dog looks at me is when returning to heel with bird.
> With dog at heel like in your videos, my dog would be scanning the field trying to sort out where the guns were or what have you.
> We do a fair amount of specific training to teach dog to look out into field, as that's where the birds are.


Breck, I think we require our dogs to be a lot more "with us" here, and focused on their handlers, and over-riding to some extent their desire to be totally focussed on 'out there'. I call it 'importance of you (me)', and to me, it is one of the most important qualities that I look for when training a young dog. That desire to be working WITH you rather than for themselves. When push comes to shove, that total obedience, over-riding what they may have seen that they want and going where YOU tell them.

Flip side is though, also strong marking ability and locking on to marks 'out there' when required.... so a real juggling act.

That's why I, for one, never train a dog to return with the bird to heel, but always straight to the front, so that it is focused on me. I'm more important than retrieving (or I should be). A dog that returns to heel and self-sets up (over here, not talking about your totally different USA game) is not thinking about you, and is totally focussing on self-satisfying with getting its next retrieve, or what it perceives to be its next retrieve above anything else. That is possibly something that is more highly prized in your game, rather than ours.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

kennel maiden said:


> Breck, I think we require our dogs to be a lot more "with us" here, and focused on their handlers, and over-riding to some extent their desire to be totally focussed on 'out there'. I call it 'importance of you (me)', and to me, it is one of the most important qualities that I look for when training a young dog. That desire to be working WITH you rather than for themselves. When push comes to shove, that total obedience, over-riding what they may have seen that they want and going where YOU tell them.
> 
> Flip side is though, also strong marking ability and locking on to marks 'out there' when required.... so a real juggling act.
> 
> That's why I, for one, never train a dog to return with the bird to heel, but always straight to the front, so that it is focused on me. I'm more important than retrieving (or I should be). A dog that returns to heel and self-sets up (over here, not talking about your totally different USA game) is not thinking about you, and is totally focussing on self-satisfying with getting its next retrieve, or what it perceives to be its next retrieve above anything else. That is possibly something that is more highly prized in your game, rather than ours.


We have the same "juggling act" with our field trials, that balance of team player versus self motovated marker, but the big differences between our sports is that we really need our dogs to focus on the field. In our all age field trials marking is of primary importance and dogs, and dog training, have evolved to such a high degree of difficulty, only the very strongest, highly motovated dogs succeed. One of the qualities we prize in our good markers is what we call the "look out". 

I'll explain by example of my first dog who was a very good hunt test dog, but didn't have what it takes to run field trials. Our hunt test keep marks near 100 yards or less and Kimo was very good at that, but when I started training him with my younger field trial dog on field trial marks, he was either unable or unwilling to "look out" at the longer punch bird mark. If we had a triple, say a long 300 yard mark up the middle with a 150 yard memory bird on the left and a 75 yard go-bird on the right, Kimo would look from the right bird to the left, and there was nothing I could do, including singles to get him to look out at the long bird. On the other hand a good field trial dog will approach the line looking out in the field and picking out guns near or far. I'll let my more experienced dog sit on the line by himself and figure out the test based on his eyesight and experience, before I settle in beside him to reinforce a critical mark. This ability to focus out in the field in a laser like manner is very important to us.

John


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

When our dogs return with a bird, many handlers bring dog to heel and with bird in mouth focus dog on next bird for a moment before taking bird. make sense?
Actually, I'm fairly certain we place far less emphases on dog focusing on us as you do.
As our marks are usually difficult to remember we place most emphases on that.
Rather than look up at me one of my dogs (who is over the top with "self satisfaction" when it comes to birds lol) "stays in touch" with me by placing his paw on my boot so he doesn't miss much. 
The only time he ever looks up is when hes unsure what I want of him.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Believe me that focus changes when in a 'Live game environment' ,certainly further north of KM, the norm, is 'Walk up' ,whether in competition or 'Rough shooting'!..even then ,On a 'Driven game day', the focus is 'All on the field'...The training scenarios and set ups /drills ,only give a 'Nursery course' to what may be encountered. Invariably,it is the experience of actually 'shooting in all environments' that 'trains/learns the dog (over here)


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Breck said:


> OK
> I understand. Pretty good work really.
> If you put your dog through our Wagon Wheel lining drill and get that sorted out you can get a bit more advanced doing precise lining drills to visible targets like in this drawing.
> Dogs really get jacked up doing this drill.
> ...


Breck really like the lining drill you showed us awhile back. Do on days like today where I am dodging ice in the field. Run only on the open grass. Oh the weather!! But I have also done it on good days and in different fields. Must confess though I don't use the white buckets. Great drill.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> and employing a heeling stick in training.



this is how we use a heeling stick in training....


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

JusticeDog said:


> this is how we use a heeling stick in training....


Doesn't Andy train your dogs?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> this is how we use a heeling stick in training....


That is probably the best way, my dogs are so unfamiliar with it they would probably respond the same way.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Watchm said:


> Doesn't Andy train your dogs?


Yes, but not all of them. He had this one. Mr
Helpful dog. Andy would misplace his heeling stick, which he does not use all that often, and Gavel would promptly find it and bring it to him!


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Breck said:


> When our dogs return with a bird, many handlers bring dog to heel and with bird in mouth focus dog on next bird for a moment before taking bird. make sense?


Our trials require (written into the regulations) that the bird is brought back quickly and efficiently to hand, so it can be dispatched promptly if necessary. So the bird is taken straight off the dog at the front as it comes in. There is no race to get the dog self set up again for the next mark in the heel position, as there isn't one!!! LOL In our field trials, the dogs don't have two retrieves on the trot. The next bird shot will be their co-competitor's retrieve (unless they fail on it, and then they will be called into eye wipe.....). Clear as mud??!! Bit complicated to explain. But, in a nutshell, there are no doubles (or trebles) in trialling here. (but there are in artificial working tests)

As Polmaise says, the dogs in training look a bit more attentive than when live game is brought into the situation, and then their focus is naturally 'out there' more...


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

polmaise said:


> Believe me that focus changes when in a 'Live game environment' ,*certainly further north of KM, the norm, is 'Walk up' *,whether in competition or 'Rough shooting'!..even then ,On a 'Driven game day', the focus is 'All on the field'...The training scenarios and set ups /drills ,only give a 'Nursery course' to what may be encountered. Invariably,it is the experience of actually 'shooting in all environments' that 'trains/learns the dog (over here)


We're all 'walked up' here too Pol! I'm not that far South!!! Really don't like Driven trials (too 'cold game test' for my liking).


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

In choosing which side to use exclusively...If one were left handed would it not impact which side the "ONE" side would be?
Would your dominant eye be a consideration ? 
How about the dogs dominant eye, gait issues, or any other unique traits. 

In a nutshell, would all dogs and handlers using one side best side be the same side ,and which sides that side be? The left side ? 

john


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

kennel maiden said:


> We're all 'walked up' here too Pol! I'm not that far South!!! Really don't like Driven trials (too 'cold game test' for my liking).


I agree KM, Only ever been on one cold game test.Even then ,One may have been better using Dummies.(Bumpers)


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> I agree KM, Only ever been on one cold game test.Even then ,One may have been better using Dummies.(Bumpers)


Don't have anything more to add to this thread, Robt. But speaking of cold game, there may be a certain parallel between Mr. Fallon's most recent positing and this






MG

j/k, John


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

john fallon said:


> In a nutshell, would all dogs and handlers using one side ,best side be the same side ,and which sides that side be? The left side ?
> 
> john


Is that like: How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Don't have anything more to add to this thread, Robt.
> MG


I believe you are right MG. But it was a useful journey for me! (sorry again if I hijacked the op)..
As you know MG I am more straight talking,than all the fancy 'cyber lingo'!...Anyhow, Hope it answered your 'query' a little regarding them 'UK' propeller cast off drills


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

EdA said:


> That is probably the best way, my dogs are so unfamiliar with it they would probably respond the same way.


Yeppers...


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Is that like: How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?


I've gone back and edited my post and removed the errant comma .... I hope that that clears things up for you, perhaps you can now answer the question. 

Sorry for the comfusion.

john


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

john fallon said:


> In choosing which side to use exclusively...If one were left handed would it not impact which side the "ONE" side would be?
> Would your dominant eye be a consideration ?
> How about the dogs dominant eye, gait issues, or any other unique traits.
> 
> ...


It appears you are getting some interesting answers.

I think many of us teach the dog to heel from the left side so that may be the side most favor. But not to say you could not teach you and your dog both sides. As you do either one side, both sides or the right side just by doing it over and over through repitition and consistency you begin to get more comfortable with your choice. IMHO


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> It appears *you are getting some interesting answers*.
> 
> I think many of us teach the dog to heel from the left side so that may be the side most favor. But not to say you could not teach you and your dog both sides. As you do either one side, both sides or the right side just by doing it over and over through repitition and consistency you begin to get more comfortable with your choice. IMHO


I am indeed,

I read with interest the responses of some on this board about their rational in choosing the one sided approach over a two sided one. I was hoping to get them to extrapolate on this giving some insight to the rest of us as to the considerations they addressed in picking the side..........

john


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## Pattie (Jan 2, 2004)

My friend has her first 2 sided dog. She LOVES it so much she is teaching her youngest to be 2 sided also. 

I am dyslexic and never considered it. I kept a pup from my litter that is now 3 months old. One of the pros I train with favors a 2 sided dog as well and said just try it. Well she can go to heal already on either side. I just use heal and move one hand or the other. 

I may never use it at test , who knows, but I do have to say a few times running her mother I wished she could have run from my right side so I didn’t have to get soaking wet running water marks.

They say with each dog you learn something new. Well maybe with Pesto I will learn how to use a 2 sided dog. 

Pattie


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