# water dog by richard wolters



## jackh (Oct 14, 2010)

anyone read this? i was just told by a friend that it is THE best book and program you can get. told me that if i get this book and do exactly what it says and forget what everyone else tells me, at worst i will have a good dog. seems pretty promising to me.

what about that 10 minute retriever book? seems interesting too


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

your friend is wrong


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Both worth a read, but there are more comprehensive training programs out there.

In 25 years, I might be saying similar things about the current training programs. In fact, I think a couple of the more popular programs do have 2nd editions (SmartWork 2 & TRT2).


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## justin300mag (May 28, 2010)

those are the training videos that I got started with years ago. The dog that I trained with those methods was an awesome dog and everyone that hunted over him seemed to love him to death. there were a couple of things I wish I could of fixed but I didn't know how. since then I have read and watched about everything out there and come up with my own training program. For the beginner that just wants a good quality meat dog I think those videos should work just fine.


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## jackh (Oct 14, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> your friend is wrong


whats right?


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

jackh said:


> whats right?


http://www.ybsmedia.com/NewMikeLardy.html


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Dick's books were very helpful in those days but training has moved so far beyond most of what he wrote that it is way outdated. He was a writer first and a dog hadler last. Boch Dohr did his force fetches and a lot more, even if Dick did write in one of his books that if a lab had to be FF, get rid of it and get another. Tar was an exceptional dog and made him look good. Bill and I loved the old man but it was in spite of his ego. Some of the basic things in his books are good but others like Evan Graham, Lardy and several others will help a lot more. Good luck with your dog.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Cleo Watson said:


> Dick's books were very helpful in those days but training has moved so far beyond most of what he wrote that it is way outdated. He was a writer first and a dog hadler last. Boch Dohr did his force fetches and a lot more, even if Dick did write in one of his books that if a lab had to be FF, get rid of it and get another. Tar was an exceptional dog and made him look good. Bill and I loved the old man but it was in spite of his ego. Some of the basic things in his books are good but others like Evan Graham, Lardy and several others will help a lot more. Good luck with your dog.


RAW's last dog was trained primarily by Charlie Jurney. His name was RAW's Southland Duck Soup and he was both force fetched and collar conditioned. 

One of RAW's final NAHRA news articles included his admission that collar conditioning and the use of an e collar was beneficial. 

Miss Cleo is right. RAW was an author much moreso than a trainer.

May he rest in peace.

Chris


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## davidtbateman (Feb 10, 2010)

I agree with Ken Bora, your friend is wrong Waterdog is very old fashioned. There are many books now days that incorporate a more efficient communication with dogs as well as emphasis on relationship with the dog, waterdog is old fashioned.

Mike Lardy, Evan Graham both have very good information, I personally like Julie Knutson "Training the Pointing Lab," but thats just because I am trying to train with a twist! But hey most these guys on here have much more experience than I! Good Luck


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

You're being to kind Chris. 

He was a BS slinger not a dog trainer.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Howard N said:


> You're being to kind Chris.
> 
> He was a BS slinger not a dog trainer.


My wife and I met him once at a NAHRA meeting a long time ago. We had just got our first two Labs and didn't know squat. Having said that, our impression agrees with Howard. I did get an autographed book. 

Ebay anyone regards?


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

Water Dog looks good on the coffee table, that's about it. Don't get me wrong. I too started with it. But as mentioned above, there are much better guides to training now days. The 10 Minute book is a very good place to start as are the other sources quoted herein.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Richard Wolters made a huge contribution for the hunting retriever. He gave a lot of folks a method to train their dog. He was revolutionary. He was the most inspirational individual in the hunting retriever movement. 

Times have progressed and there are improved methods available. The average hunter could still use "Water Dog" and end up with a good hunting retriever.

If anyone feels it important to disparage his accomplishments please list yours so we can put it all into perspective. HPW


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

well, said Harry, I was debating how to respond, you said it very well.....

Seems many people seem to have started there, and moved on to new and better, but they started there.

I started there about 8 1/2 years ago. Yes I have read a lot of other stuff along the way two, but there is a GMHR II (thats two passes at the invitational that was named for him) MPR that was trained primarily with waterdog as the foundation. Starting the new pup differently sure, but concepts in water dog are what have led to a lot of other things, and are the foundation from which I learn.

Similarly in Chiropractic school, we were first taught an "obsolete technique" no one uses that technique "purely" anymore. But that technique teaches line of drive, how to thrust, and the feel of the joint as it is ready to be adjusted. Some thought learning that technique was a waste of time, but in truth, leraning that technique laid the foundation for learning other techniqes easier than with out it.

Yes there are more efficient methods out there, but sometimes understanding where things comes from helps you understanding. 

the fact that he recognized that e-collars were a useful tool later implies that he ws willing to change with the times, remember that the e-collars he did not like, were single setting HOT collars that likly were NOT good tools in the hands of a unskilled ameture.....


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## Ryan M (Feb 6, 2010)

If you're looking for a book like that to read, the new Dokken book isnt that bad for a basic meat dog. It covers collar conditioning and force training. I'd rather buy a lardy or graham system though...


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

I still use some of Richards methods from his Family Dog book but that is only with some of my puppy training, from there I moved to Lardy and Graham for solid field dog work. If you are trialing or training a meat dog these programs are where you need to seek your information. IMHDAO


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Walters and Wolters are two different guys. Different methods, different experiences. Be sure which one you are referring to! I KNOW Bach worked with Walters, but not sure about the other.


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## duckhuntingfool (Oct 8, 2010)

I have the book I will mail you if you want it. Shipping plus 5 dolla. That was my first training device so i didnt know if it was good or bad.


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

I read Waterdog, and i read 10 minute retriever, and if I had to choose between the two I would deffinately go with the second. but if youve got time and an open mind then id say read them both. I own several of RAWs books. If you are training a hunting dog then you can get by with either of the two books you have mentioned. But if you are looking to have a highly competitive FT or HT dog then its like looking at your middle school math book and trying to help your 7th grader with their homework...... 
Jim


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

limiman12 said:


> the fact that he recognized that e-collars were a useful tool later implies that he ws willing to change with the times, remember that the e-collars he did not like, were single setting HOT collars that likly were NOT good tools in the hands of a unskilled ameture.....


I have always thought this too. I didn't realize until this thread that he ever publicly said he would use a collar, but in reading his books, I always thought that his opposition was to the tool itself and not the idea of the tool. 

I also believe that Wolters' core philosophy is very similar to the great trainers of today, like Lardy and Graham. There's some useful information in Game Dog (the most recent-1983, maybe) relating to stages of development, puppy training, and basic obedience. I wouldn't use these books to train my dog (as in follow them step by step), but I'd certainly read the first 50 or so pages of Game Dog, just as an introduction or preface to my training. With my new puppy, I couldn't find my old Wolters books (lost in a move, I think), so I spent about an hour at Barnes and Noble skimming through them and then checked them out from the library. 

Anyway, I might have a lot more time on my hands than you do...so take this fwiw.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Howard N said:


> You're being to kind Chris.
> 
> He was a BS slinger not a dog trainer.


 I think a lot of trainers sling it Howard !!  Some are just way more proficient at one or the other regards.........


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Another analogy...DOS Shell and Windows 3.1 were fantastic in the late 80s and early 90s, but you certainly wouldn't use them today. However, if you went back and learned them (or if you grew up using them), you would find that many of the basic core principals of those programs are used in today's operating systems.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

The truth is, if your first training video you ever watch is "Water Dog", your going to like it and think, man I want my dog to do that... But if you get a new program like Smartworks or Lardy's TRT series, going back and watching Water Dog is going to give you a migraine..... Especially if you go back and watch "Top Dog", man the lack of detail in both is scary (Holloween type stuff).... IMHDAO


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## labluver (Apr 21, 2010)

Jack,

Where are you in Texas. Sent you a PM about Evan Graham seminar coming up in Point Tx.


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Byron Musick said:


> The truth is, if your first training video you ever watch is "Water Dog", your going to like it and think, man I want my dog to do that... But if you get a new program like Smartworks or Lardy's TRT series, going back and watching Water Dog is going to give you a migraine..... Especially if you go back and watch "Top Dog", man the lack of detail in both is scary (Holloween type stuff).... IMHDAO


Wolters made videos?


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

whitefoot said:


> Wolters made videos?


Yep, here is a link http://midcarolinam517.corecommerce.com/DVDs-c3/

Game Dog, Family dog, Water Dog, Top Dog I & II, possibly more! PM me your address and I'll get you a great deal on these DVD's!


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

jackh said:


> i was just told by a friend that it is THE best book and program you can get. told me that if i get this book and do exactly what it says and forget what everyone else tells me,.


"....THE best.....and forget what everyone else tells me..."

Probably the worst advice you will ever hear. There is not ONE way to train every dog and training knowledge has evolved since the RAW days. 
I know of no person that trains the same way as they did when Water Dog was first or last published. We all listen, read and observe methods that work better for given problems and different dogs and incorporate what works.
IMHO all books,videos and programs are reference guides. They provide an organized progression for training. Real training is how we adopt these principles and that usually requires the guidance of someone who has been there done that. 

JMO

Tim


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Byron Musick said:


> Yep, here is a link http://midcarolinam517.corecommerce.com/DVDs-c3/
> 
> Game Dog, Family dog, Water Dog, Top Dog I & II, possibly more! PM me your address and I'll get you a great deal on these DVD's!


No thanks. I'm not interested. I was only surprised that Wolters actually made videos. And from the looks of it these were all released a decade after Wolters died.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

whitefoot said:


> No thanks. I'm not interested. I was only surprised that Wolters actually made videos. And from the looks of it these were all released a decade after Wolters died.


If you watch them you will see they follow the RAW training method and frequently give him credit for their creation..


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Byron Musick said:


> If you watch them you will see they follow the RAW training method and frequently give him credit for their creation..


Thanks. I understand what they are.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

whitefoot said:


> Thanks. I understand what they are.


You asked the question and this is your response?? Your welcome!! Have a great day!!


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Although antiquated, I would have to respectfully acknowledge that Wolters' timeline on developing pups seems to be consistant with the pups I've raised, and worked with..I give him that..

I feel that in 1982, (and pos. re-enforcement) , it was an easy read for a first time trainer...I think Wolters' took a trainer up to T work and that was it..Some folks use the methods and hunt a dog successfully for a decade..Others are hungry for more..If I had to make a choice in antiquated, or _older_ methods, I'd have to go with James Lamb Free..


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

HarryWilliams said:


> Richard Wolters made a huge contribution for the hunting retriever. He gave a lot of folks a method to train their dog. He was revolutionary. He was the most inspirational individual in the hunting retriever movement.
> 
> Times have progressed and there are improved methods available. The average hunter could still use "Water Dog" and end up with a good hunting retriever.
> 
> If anyone feels it important to disparage his accomplishments please list yours so we can put it all into perspective. HPW



Well stated Harry, I trained my first dog solely with that book in 1979 and it worked great. I checked it out of the Lanai City library and ended up buying a copy. The step by step process worked perfectly for that dog. Years later I moved to Montana and bought another Golden Retriever, I bought Wolter's updated book Game Dog and started the process over. After seven days of training I was six days behind and very frustrated.

At that point my wife was loosing her patience with me and told me to call the author of that book. So believe it or not, I looked up Richard Wolters in NY and called his house from Montana. He was very nice, told me I was taking the book way too literally, said he didn't know if I had a good or bad pup, bud advised that I do two things 1) join NAHRA which I did right after talking to him, 2) find an amateur training group in my area to hook up with. Very good advise.

Turns out I had a very good dog that just wasn't going along with that step by step program, so we had to be flexable. We ended up using a more conventional Lardy type program, but for the average hunter and retriever I think Wolters book would work fine. For guys who want to run field trials or even Master HT, you probably want a more complete program.

John


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Byron Musick said:


> You asked the question and this is your response?? Your welcome!! Have a great day!!


What's the problem? I was surprised that RAW had made videos. I understand what the videos are now, thanks to your link and some independent research. Thanks again. What response were you looking for?


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## jackh (Oct 14, 2010)

what is RAW? 

and are there any programs i can follow that dont involve ecollar conditioning?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

jackh said:


> what is RAW?
> 
> and are there any programs i can follow that dont involve ecollar conditioning?


RAW: Richard A. Wolters. The Wildrose Way is one of the programs that is non-collar. Is that your interest? If so, why?

Evan


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

Personal opinion of course, but Water Dog was one of the best training books ever written. 
WHY, you might ask, --simple-- even "Abner" could understand it!
However, once Water Dog is understood, it's time to move on.


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## John4645 (Apr 26, 2009)

There is no book written for your dog. But if you use the Water Dog book for your program and it fits for that dog (and or you have the skills to adapt to your dog) you will have a dog better than 90% of the dogs in boats or marshes that are hunting right now.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

HarryWilliams said:


> Richard Wolters made a huge contribution for the hunting retriever. He gave a lot of folks a method to train their dog. He was revolutionary. He was the most inspirational individual in the hunting retriever movement.
> 
> Times have progressed and there are improved methods available. The average hunter could still use "Water Dog" and end up with a good hunting retriever.
> 
> If anyone feels it important to disparage his accomplishments please list yours so we can put it all into perspective. HPW


RAW's accomplishments were substantial - I can remember meeting him at the MT State Retriever Trial in 1965. Had a very nice just over 2 dog that ran Test Dog for the Derby. The thing I remember most is the huge balloon tires he had on his 10' camper mounted on his Ford PU. His message was somewhat diluted because he made a point of disparaging Field Trials. 

When we owned our boarding kennel folks knew I trained retrievers so would ask me if there was a book to follow. I recommended WD as it was the only book out for retrievers at the time, James Lamb Free also had one but it did not have the basics as WD did. What I told people to do was also get a blanche Saunders OB book for the commands & forget the whistle stuff. 

1974 NC Baird's Centerville Sam was trained by following WD. Tommy Sorenson had to spend a year undoing the stuff that didn't follow FT etiquette prior to running him. 

Sam was also related on the Dam side to 1967 NC Butte Blue Moon & 1969 NAFC Guy's Bitterroot Lucky, funny how you could breed good dogs in those days without running all over the country for a stud ;-). I know Lucky or Moon could run today & I'm sure Sam could, so though the methods are more refined & there's a lot more info out there, a good dog is still a good dog. I personally wish there would have been the info available then there is today, we wouldn't have had to spend so much time in the field learning, we could have been book smart & spent more time judging .


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> RAW's accomplishments were substantial - I can remember meeting him at the MT State Retriever Trial in 1965. Had a very nice just over 2 dog that ran Test Dog for the Derby. The thing I remember most is the huge balloon tires he had on his 10' camper mounted on his Ford PU. His message was somewhat diluted because he made a point of disparaging Field Trials.
> 
> When we owned our boarding kennel folks knew I trained retrievers so would ask me if there was a book to follow. I recommended WD as it was the only book out for retrievers at the time, James Lamb Free also had one but it did not have the basics as WD did. What I told people to do was also get a blanche Saunders OB book for the commands & forget the whistle stuff.
> *
> ...



edit note : Baird's Centerville Sam won it in '73...because Mr.Crow's dog Happy Playboy Pearl won it in '74..the reason I know that particular Open was we were getting daily updates from John Luther since he ran Judge for Clint since he was in class at A&M...it was also the year that Lanse and all his buddies froze their azzzes off in what may have been one of the coldest National's on record..the dogs actually broke ice on a couple of water series..Lanse and John both went out after the 7th series and the trial went to an 11th series , all done within 4 days...actually have a picture of Lanse and a few of the guys that braved that cold weather.brrrr


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## scott2012 (Feb 16, 2009)

HarryWilliams said:


> Richard Wolters made a huge contribution for the hunting retriever. He gave a lot of folks a method to train their dog. He was revolutionary. He was the most inspirational individual in the hunting retriever movement.
> 
> Times have progressed and there are improved methods available. The average hunter could still use "Water Dog" and end up with a good hunting retriever.
> 
> If anyone feels it important to disparage his accomplishments please list yours so we can put it all into perspective. HPW


Well said Harry..


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> ...actually have a picture of Lanse and a few of the guys that braved that cold weather.brrrr


... and you're not posting it.

What's up with that?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Howard N said:


> ... and you're not posting it.
> 
> What's up with that?


No scanner, besides its boring , only personal sentimental value,most of the people on it are no longer with us


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Miss Cleo is right. RAW was an author much moreso than a trainer.
> 
> Chris


Seems to be a few of those still around and at least one is very popular.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> RAW's accomplishments were substantial - I can remember meeting him at the MT State Retriever Trial in 1965. Had a very nice just over 2 dog that ran Test Dog for the Derby. The thing I remember most is the huge balloon tires he had on his 10' camper mounted on his Ford PU. His message was somewhat diluted because he made a point of disparaging Field Trials.
> 
> When we owned our boarding kennel folks knew I trained retrievers so would ask me if there was a book to follow. I recommended WD as it was the only book out for retrievers at the time, James Lamb Free also had one but it did not have the basics as WD did. What I told people to do was also get a blanche Saunders OB book for the commands & forget the whistle stuff.
> 
> ...


Marvin, please see and respond to my PM. I had a long post, but I'm not putting it here publicly.

I'm 100% confident that you are incorrect in your assumption that the person in question has lost posting priveleges. 

I won't go into more detail than that publicly.

Please don't post stuff like you just did publicly when it is not true.

And if you are unsure, please come to me first before assuming and posting nonsense.

Thanks, Chris


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

scott2012 said:


> Well said Harry..


Okay folks, let's go way back. If it wasn't for Bill Tarrant, Omar Driskill and Dick Wolters we would not have the 3 main hunting retriever programs. They all made a major contribution to the sport so many of us enjoy today and our dogs have certainly come a long way too.

This is where HRC/UKC, (Dick, Bill & Fred Miller), NAHRA. (Wolter's, et al) and then AKC all began. Personalities and then AKC wanting complete control of this sport was the reason HRC and NAHRA split and went their separate ways. This is the reason we can all enjoy the chocolate, vanilla and strawberry clubs.

Bill Tarrant's books and Richard Wolter's books were all some of us had to work with and learn how to train our retrievers. Don't knock them, use what applies to your program and move on to bigger and better ways. 

If it ain't fun for you and your dog, don't play.

I know from where I speak, Bill and I were there in the beginning.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

TN_LAB said:


> Both worth a read, but there are more comprehensive training programs out there.
> 
> In 25 years, I might be saying similar things about the current training programs. In fact, I think a couple of the more popular programs do have 2nd editions (SmartWork 2 & TRT2).


I still like my response back at post #3


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