# Check out the elbows of my chocolate lab- Didn't see this one coming!



## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Bought him two years ago, thought I had done all of my homework on the pedigree and health clearances.

So it came time to get his hips and elbows certified, I took him in and this is what I came back with...(see attachments).

Now the breeder is not standing behind his guarantee. 

Any question about who & where the dog came from, pm me.




Quint Broome


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Sorry this has happened. Bad elbows are worse than bad hips IMO.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Quint,

I have a male with a grade 2 and a grade 3 elbow. He is now 8 and runs hunt tests. I can give you some recommendations to help minimize and slow arthritic changes. Feel free to PM me or email me.

Sue Puff


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

quint said:


> Bought him two years ago, thought I had done all of my homework on the pedigree and health clearances.
> 
> So it came time to get his hips and elbows certified, I took him in and this is what I came back with...(see attachments).
> 
> ...



Very sorry----Were the certs/health clearances from the parents, or the pup? Makes a big difference. Did the breeder provide you with x-ray info on them?


Feel your pain, but take care of your pup. There are options.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

Wow. Was he limping at all or was this completely unexpected? Hope you can get things worked out with the breeder.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

quint said:


> Bought him two years ago, thought I had done all of my homework on the pedigree and health clearances.
> 
> So it came time to get his hips and elbows certified, I took him in and this is what I came back with...(see attachments).
> 
> ...


Where you given any options for repairing the elbows?


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Sorry to hear that Quint. Did all of his other health clearances check out?? He is one nice dog to have to find this out now....


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

noob post here- does anyony have any examples of what good elbows look like for comparison? I see differences in the two images above, but I don't have a point of reference.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

quint said:


> Bought him two years ago, thought I had done all of my homework on the pedigree and health clearances.
> 
> So it came time to get his hips and elbows certified, I took him in and this is what I came back with...(see attachments).
> 
> ...


Dysplastic elbows can happen to any of us at any time, both as owners and breeders. I've faced it more than once.

Here's the link to the OFA with more information
http://offa.org/ed_types.html

According to OFA: 
"Multiple studies support the theory that the various components of ED are heritable. The heritability index and incidence
varies by the breed, component and population studied. It appears that the disorder is inherited polygenically with development
being multifactorial. Both environmental factors and the additive effect of many genes contribute to expression."​ 
Polygenic meaning, "Coming from more than one ("poly") gene pair. These traits are more complex than the typical dominant or recessive genetic trait. The additive interaction of the genes can cause variable results and the gene can be easily passed on to other generations without being identified."

I am sorry that that if your terms of your contract with the breeder covers elbow dysplasia that your breeder is not working with you. Many breeders do not even offer a guarantee on elbows because of the environmental factor that can influence the development of ED.


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## WREDrake (Aug 3, 2010)

I was sorry to hear this when Bree told me. That is awful for the nice young dog he is. The breeder should hold their end of the agreement especially considering how the dog has done and the efforts you placed in creating a finished level dog with one of there pups.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Dang quint, sorry to see that. How's Bree taking it?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Did OFA give a rating on the elbows? I noticed on OFA mother and grandmother do not have elbow numbers. When did you do the elbows? Did the xrays fall out side his guarantee time? Is that what the problem is?


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## J.Q. (Feb 24, 2012)

That's terrible. In a couple weeks, one of my dogs is supposed to be tested as well. I would be heart broken if something like that showed up. Hope the breeder wises up and does what's right.

I was just wondering what the breeder's guarantee is on your dog?


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

7pntail said:


> Very sorry----Were the certs/health clearances from the parents, or the pup? Makes a big difference. Did the breeder provide you with x-ray info on them?
> 
> 
> Feel your pain, but take care of your pup. There are options.


The health clearance is from the parents. No, he only owns the dam. He showed OFA numbers on the hip and states that the elbows were normal. Me, being fairly new to knowing health clearances, I did not realize to look at the OFA numbers for elbows but I do now. 

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

IdahoLabs said:


> Wow. Was he limping at all or was this completely unexpected? Hope you can get things worked out with the breeder.


No, he was not showing any signs of this problem. 

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

jeff t. said:


> Where you given any options for repairing the elbows?


Yes, the orthopedic said they could do surgery but could not guarantee he would not go lame after surgery.

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

JoeOverby said:


> Sorry to hear that Quint. Did all of his other health clearances check out?? He is one nice dog to have to find this out now....


No, his hips did not check out either. They said the hips would rate "fair" at best. 

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Donald Flanagan said:


> noob post here- does anyony have any examples of what good elbows look like for comparison? I see differences in the two images above, but I don't have a point of reference.


No, I do not have pictures of good elbows. His left elbow is worse than his right but the fragments should not be sticking out, they should be well rounded. 

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

frontier said:


> Dyplastic elbows can happen to any of us at any time, both as owners and breeders. I've faced it more than once.
> 
> Here's the link to the OFA with more information
> http://offa.org/ed_types.html
> ...


Thanks for the link. I have already looked into the link. After the x-rays, my first question was to the vet was did I cause this in training or anything else. They said no, strictly genetic. 

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Gatorb said:


> Dang quint, sorry to see that. How's Bree taking it?


She was pretty upset at first but now is dealing with it. She knows that we have to take it easy with him and watch him closely. 

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> Did OFA give a rating on the elbows? I noticed on OFA mother and grandmother do not have elbow numbers. When did you do the elbows? Did the xrays fall out side his guarantee time? Is that what the problem is?


After I realized that they should have been OFA numbers beside the ratings on the elbows, which he stated was good and I when I looked I could not find any on the dam side but only on the sire. Done the elbows at 24 months. No, the x-rays did not fall out side the guarantee. 

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

J.Q. said:


> That's terrible. In a couple weeks, one of my dogs is supposed to be tested as well. I would be heart broken if something like that showed up. Hope the breeder wises up and does what's right.
> 
> I was just wondering what the breeder's guarantee is on your dog?


We were heart broken. We never expected any thing like this. I do not think the breeder is going to wise up. The last contact I had, he was going out of business because of personal reasons. The guarantee was that the hips and elbows and be clear of EIC, CMN and eyes.

Quint


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks for all your kind words and help offered. Hopefully, we can resolve this issue soon. His actual condition is called Ununited Anconeal Process (UAP). I hope that some one who may have bought a pup from this litter has not had some of the same issues I have encountered or the litters he has now.

Thanks, 
Quint


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

quint said:


> No, his hips did not check out either. They said the hips would rate "fair" at best.
> 
> Quint


 Who is they???? So did you send the x-rays in to OFA for their evaluation on hips and elbows?


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

quint said:


> Thanks for all your kind words and help offered. Hopefully, we can resolve this issue soon. His actual condition is called Ununited Anconeal Process (UAP). I hope that some one who may have bought a pup from this litter has not had some of the same issues I have encountered or the litters he has now.
> 
> Thanks,
> Quint


Ununited anconeal process (UAP) is one of the etiologies of Elbow Dysplasia..


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

quint said:


> She was pretty upset at first but now is dealing with it. She knows that we have to take it easy with him and watch him closely.
> 
> Quint


well tell her she can run Drake anytime.....same color, just a tad smaller.  heck he'd probably run better for her.


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## Hairy Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

Wow, I just realized who I think you are. Did you have this dog out at the NGHRC training day last Saturday? Really hate to hear about this. I just got back the last of my test results this week, and have been kind of nervous about it. I can only imagine getting back results like you did. So sorry to hear about it. Hope you can get things resolved.


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

frontier said:


> Who is they???? So did you send the x-rays in to OFA for their evaluation on hips and elbows?


No i did not send the xrays to ofa , My vet and the orthapedic that looked at
them said hips would be fair at best and they would not rate the elbows


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## skelso (Apr 29, 2009)

Man, I hate to hear of anyone's pup ending up this way. I ave puppies being picked up from my first time litter this weekend. A friend, and regular breeder, told me early on "Don't get into breeding unless you can let that money sit for 2 years because it's not really yours until all the pups pass their health certs" I took that advice to heart.

Hope you are able to get this worked out with your breeder.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not accusing you of anything, just trying to learn all I can so i can better inform my buyers. Did your vet indicate any environmental factors that may have caused this or are they fairly certain it's all genetic? Over the past few months I have found tons of stuff on food, jumping in and out of trucks, etc that influence hip issues but not much on elbows other than "can be influenced by environmental factors"


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

frontier said:


> Ununited anconeal process (UAP) is one of the etiologies of Elbow Dysplasia..


Yes i know this, now , But it is still genetic disorder, Because that is the first thing i asked if it was soething that i caused, in traing or soemthig else


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Hairy Dawg said:


> Wow, I just realized who I think you are. Did you have this dog out at the NGHRC training day last Saturday? Really hate to hear about this. I just got back the last of my test results this week, and have been kind of nervous about it. I can only imagine getting back results like you did. So sorry to hear about it. Hope you can get things resolved.


 



Thanks , And yes that was me, And when the vet took the xrays and then came told me , tha t she had bad news i almost hit the floor, I never thought something like this would happen.


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Gatorb said:


> well tell her she can run Drake anytime.....same color, just a tad smaller.  heck he'd probably run better for her.


I will tell her , thanks


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

quint said:


> No i did not send the xrays to ofa , My vet and the orthapedic that looked at
> them said hips would be fair at best and they would not rate the elbows


I recommend you send your xrays in to OFA for their official evaluation. Your vet can do this digitally. Do not take just your vet's opinion...think of it as a very inexpensive second opinion opportunity

And remember, hips that are OFA rated fair are not dysplastic.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

frontier said:


> I recommend you send your xrays in to OFA for their official evaluation. Your vet can do this digitally. Do not take just your vet's opinion...think of it as a very inexpensive second opinion opportunity


Agree, and some breeders require that OFA evaluate and rate the films before any settlements are made... just in case the breeder still comes around. For $40, it's well worth it. Also, on the form for submission there is a box to check (I still get a lump in my throat doing that!) saying you authorize them to post ALL results, not just the passing ones. That may help someone else down the line decide if a pup from those parents is worth the risk or not... 

So sorry for your bad news.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

I don't see a picture of the hips attached, but there's no way elbows would ever pass. I've bred a few litters and my guarantee says I require OFA verification of problems, but with elbows like that no one should need OFA to see the fractures and arthritic changes. Hope the breeder comes around. Sounds like this is a daughter's dog? Life's not fair but you always hate for something like this to happen when kids are involved.

Another consideration-- if you submit hips and elbows, authorizing OFA to release the results, you may save someone else the heartache of a dysplastic pup.


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

skelso said:


> Man, I hate to hear of anyone's pup ending up this way. I ave puppies being picked up from my first time litter this weekend. A friend, and regular breeder, told me early on "Don't get into breeding unless you can let that money sit for 2 years because it's not really yours until all the pups pass their health certs" I took that advice to heart.
> 
> Hope you are able to get this worked out with your breeder.
> 
> Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not accusing you of anything, just trying to learn all I can so i can better inform my buyers. Did your vet indicate any environmental factors that may have caused this or are they fairly certain it's all genetic? Over the past few months I have found tons of stuff on food, jumping in and out of trucks, etc that influence hip issues but not much on elbows other than "can be influenced by environmental factors"


That was the first thing i asked when she showed me the xrays if it was caused by any of the things you have listed, She said no not in this case.That it was genetic,


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> Agree, and some breeders require that OFA evaluate and rate the films before any settlements are made... just in case the breeder still comes around. For $40, it's well worth it. Also, on the form for submission there is a box to check (I still get a lump in my throat doing that!) saying you authorize them to post ALL results, not just the passing ones. That may help someone else down the line decide if a pup from those parents is worth the risk or not...
> 
> So sorry for your bad news.


Thnks have not thought about this, But good idea, And yes i asked breeder if i need to send xrays to ofa, But i think b the wa he responed back his mind is made up.


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

IdahoLabs said:


> I don't see a picture of the hips attached, but there's no way elbows would ever pass. I've bred a few litters and my guarantee says I require OFA verification of problems, but with elbows like that no one should need OFA to see the fractures and arthritic changes. Hope the breeder comes around. Sounds like this is a daughter's dog? Life's not fair but you always hate for something like this to happen when kids are involved.
> 
> Another consideration-- if you submit hips and elbows, authorizing OFA to release the results, you may save someone else the heartache of a dysplastic pup.


And yes it is my daughters dog,She started going with me on my dog training and to hunt test, And she has done the training with just a fewexceptions like force fetch just because of his size and her size and once again .Thanks for all the kind words

quint


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Has the dog shown any signs of dicomfort?

You need to get the X-rays sent to OFA and see if the are rejected.

I had a pup buyer tell me a dogs hip was "junk" according to their vet. It was junk and " it was genetic" The OFA came back with a rating of good.

I dont care who your vet is, and I'm not disrespecting your vet, get a second opinion before you throw in the towel.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

quint said:


> No i did not send the xrays to ofa , My vet and the orthapedic that looked at
> them said hips would be fair at best and they would not rate the elbows


When people don't submit "bad" films to OFA, they kind of help perpetuate the problem. People look to OFA for results when they are researching a litter or a stud and if they don't see any dysplasia, they assume there isn't any problem. Which makes the problem worse. OFA results are hugely skewed because of this "voluntary" submission. 

I'm sorry your dog got shorted on the genetic side, sounds like he's doing well for you. While you won't be able to breed him, at least he is not symptomatic and is everything else you want, so take the good advice of keeping him lean, fit, get him on some supplements, avoid jumping/stairs and otherwise, continue to do what you do together. Many of us have gotten hit with the dysplasia bat, once the shock wears off, you realize you still have your dog, it isn't a death sentence and many dogs continue to live a normal, active life with common sense, they don't have to be put in a bubble. Mine lived til 12. At 18 months, it was a huge disappointment. When we lost her last December, couldn't have cared less about her bad hips, would have loved another 12 years with her.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

If the dog is not lame , keep running him! No need to lay him up , until he needs to be laid up.... Sorry for your results


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## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

I wish you and your pup the best . But without sending to OFA you dont really have anything to show the breeder . 

And another question (IF) they will replace your pup , are you willing to return your pup for a new pup ? Or is he like mine (moved in your heart and staying for life) !

So if your not sending to OFA or willing to give him up for a new pup , no need in going any farther .....jmo


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Alan Sandifer said:


> I wish you and your pup the best . But without sending to OFA you dont really have anything to show the breeder .
> 
> And another question (IF) they will replace your pup , are you willing to return your pup for a new pup ? Or is he like mine (moved in your heart and staying for life) !
> 
> So if your not sending to OFA or willing to give him up for a new pup , no need in going any farther .....jmo


Some breeders do replacement without giving up the dog you all ready have. Most mandate nuter.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

I had a dog with UAP. If you can find a surgeon WITH EXPERIENCE with the arthroscope, they can take the pieces out and clean up the joint. Your dog will still develop arthritis, but less severe and less soon than if you just leave the pieces in there to grind up the cartilage he still has. Do this if you possibly can. If you had found this sooner, there is a procedure involving cutting the ulna and letting it slide a bit so the anconeal process can re-attach, but it only works for pups whose growth plates have not closed. This worked on one of my dog's elbows. There is a lot to be said for screening pup's elbows when they are about 6 months old-ED is worse than HD. Sorry for you and your dog!


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## baggr (Sep 10, 2008)

I know there will be people who disagree with me, but IMHO, if that breeder used this forum to advertise the litter and gave a guarantee, he or she should be identified. The only way to deal with unscrupulous breeders is to put them out of business.


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## Pigpen (Nov 23, 2008)

Quint, hate to hear this. I hope you get it straightened out. I like ol' Sky.
Heath


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

TIM DOANE said:


> Has the dog shown any signs of dicomfort?
> 
> You need to get the X-rays sent to OFA and see if the are rejected.
> 
> ...


im not throwing in the towel, I did get a second opinion from an orthpedic,
But i do see the reason for sending to ofa (now).


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Alan Sandifer said:


> I wish you and your pup the best . But without sending to OFA you dont really have anything to show the breeder .
> 
> And another question (IF) they will replace your pup , are you willing to return your pup for a new pup ? Or is he like mine (moved in your heart and staying for life) !
> 
> So if your not sending to OFA or willing to give him up for a new pup , no need in going any farther .....jmo


I ask the breeder if i need to sent the xrays to ofa to make the contract good and i got no response, So that tells me that he does not care either way. And no i can not return the pup , I can not tell my little girl we have to send her dog back after 2 years , Thanks for your response


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

pupaloo said:


> I had a dog with UAP. If you can find a surgeon WITH EXPERIENCE with the arthroscope, they can take the pieces out and clean up the joint. Your dog will still develop arthritis, but less severe and less soon than if you just leave the pieces in there to grind up the cartilage he still has. Do this if you possibly can. If you had found this sooner, there is a procedure involving cutting the ulna and letting it slide a bit so the anconeal process can re-attach, but it only works for pups whose growth plates have not closed. This worked on one of my dog's elbows. There is a lot to be said for screening pup's elbows when they are about 6 months old-ED is worse than HD. Sorry for you and your dog!


Thanks, iI wish i would have found it sooner and known about the procedure you are talking about, but atleast i will know next time. And thank you again for the info.


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

baggr said:


> I know there will be people who disagree with me, but IMHO, if that breeder used this forum to advertise the litter and gave a guarantee, he or she should be identified. The only way to deal with unscrupulous breeders is to put them out of business.


He say,s he is closing his kennel at the end of the month but for personal reason's


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Pigpen said:


> Quint, hate to hear this. I hope you get it straightened out. I like ol' Sky.
> Heath


Thanks , Heath Yea ihe is a pretty good ol boy


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

I would like to thank every one who has responed to this post, I have gotten , alot of good advice. But when it is all said and done, It still only boils down to one thing. And that is that if this guy would have done what he and his contract stated, Then we would not be at this point we are at now.
It all just goes back to one simple thing. IF YOU TELL SOMEONE YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHIG THEN DO IT! And this guy went as far as to put it in writing and still did not do his part, 

And once again thank every one who has responed

Thanks Quint


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Please discuss getting his elbows scoped with your orthopedic vet, if you did not already. If you can do it, it will help his quality of life. Best of luck!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

quint said:


> I would like to thank every one who has responed to this post, I have gotten , alot of good advice. But when it is all said and done, It still only boils down to one thing. And that is that if this guy would have done what he and his contract stated, Then we would not be at this point we are at now.
> It all just goes back to one simple thing. IF YOU TELL SOMEONE YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHIG THEN DO IT! And this guy went as far as to put it in writing and still did not do his part,
> 
> And once again thank every one who has responed
> ...


If it's in writing you've got a small claims case if you want to pursue it. Normally a breeder will replace the dog, most I know would require a neuter-spay certificate, but You'd keep the dog and get a replacement puppy from a later breeding. Most breeders will turn backward to honor their contracts on issues like this, OFA certs are pretty basic contract requirements. You can't do those until 2yrs which is why most breeders cover it until 3 yrs. sometimes longer if the condition is determined to be congenital. Sorry Your getting the Run around I'd be livid myself.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> If it's in writing you've got a small claims case if you want to pursue it. Normally a breeder will replace the dog, most I know would require a neuter-spay certificate, but You'd keep the dog and get a replacement puppy from a later breeding. Most breeders will turn backward to honor their contracts on issues like this, OFA certs are pretty basic contract requirements. You can't do those until 2yrs which is why most breeders cover it until 3 yrs. sometimes longer if the condition is determined to be congenital. Sorry Your getting the Run around I'd be livid myself.


Why would you want a replacement pup from a breeding that has already done you wrong??? I understand the concept but it makes no sense. So lets go back to the same well that screwed us already????? No. The breeder in question should stand behind his pups. Point blank, end of story. Anything less is unacceptable. If he is not gonna honor his guarantee than simply do not offer one. My opinion, get your money back and buy another pup, from somebody else....and stop funding one crooks endeavors....

Oh, and out him...we deserve to know who this jack #@* is so nobody else gets caught up in the same predicament. 

Theres only one thing worse than a theif and thats a liar...obviously, this man fits the description of both.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JoeOverby said:


> Why would you want a replacement pup from a breeding that has already done you wrong??? I understand the concept but it makes no sense. So lets go back to the same well that screwed us already????? No. The breeder in question should stand behind his pups. Point blank, end of story. Anything less is unacceptable. If he is not gonna honor his guarantee than simply do not offer one. My opinion, get your money back and buy another pup, from somebody else....and stop funding one crooks endeavors....
> 
> Oh, and out him...we deserve to know who this jack #@* is so nobody else gets caught up in the same predicament.
> 
> Theres only one thing worse than a theif and thats a liar...obviously, this man fits the description of both.


A: Depends on the guarantee but many offer a replacement pup, not cash back. 
B: Dysplasia happens to the best of breedings. All breeders can do is hip and elbow screening and try to avoid it. If one does not offer or back up their guarantee, that's another story. 
C: "Outing" someone's business on this forum is not acceptable, it only causes Chris grief. PM the OP if you want to know who it is.


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## skelso (Apr 29, 2009)

quint said:


> That was the first thing i asked when she showed me the xrays if it was caused by any of the things you have listed, She said no not in this case.That it was genetic,


Thanks for the reply. Hope the breeder offers some resolution. In the mean time, love that pup like you never saw the x-rays. Just know you have to pay more attention to those off days.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> A: Depends on the guarantee but many offer a replacement pup, not cash back.
> B: Dysplasia happens to the best of breedings. All breeders can do is hip and elbow screening and try to avoid it. If one does not offer or back up their guarantee, that's another story.
> C: "Outing" someone's business on this forum is not acceptable, it only causes Chris grief. PM the OP if you want to know who it is.


First, I understand that it happens. That DOES NOT take away the responsibility of a breeder to holod true to their agreements. Second, you and I can agree to disagree on whether or not it is acceptable to "out" one business. I understand trying to limit the amount of grief we cause Chris, however, if he is left to carry on, business as usual, what is to stop him from doing it again?? I am not arguing with you over the dysplasia, s*@T happens, but I do not feel he should be allowed to not stand behind his pups if he made such a guarantee with no consequences. You may think its ok to sit idly by as more get a screwing but not this boy. It is not ok. Do what you say you are gonna do. It's simple. You can have your idea of "acceptable" and I'll have mine.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

JoeOverby said:


> First, I understand that it happens. That DOES NOT take away the responsibility of a breeder to holod true to their agreements. Second, you and I can agree to disagree on whether or not it is acceptable to "out" one business. I understand trying to limit the amount of grief we cause Chris, however, if he is left to carry on, business as usual, what is to stop him from doing it again?? I am not arguing with you over the dysplasia, s*@T happens, but I do not feel he should be allowed to not stand behind his pups if he made such a guarantee with no consequences. You may think its ok to sit idly by as more get a screwing but not this boy. It is not ok. Do what you say you are gonna do. It's simple. You can have your idea of "acceptable" and I'll have mine.


It's not a done deal yet. He has to submit the xrays to OFA. I would also require that. PM him *as he asked people to *if you need to know but don't cause Chris problems, please. Also, thoroughly check out advertised certs on OFA before you buy or ask for copies. An honest breeder will have no problem with that.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JoeOverby said:


> First, I understand that it happens. That DOES NOT take away the responsibility of a breeder to holod true to their agreements. Second, you and I can agree to disagree on whether or not it is acceptable to "out" one business. I understand trying to limit the amount of grief we cause Chris, however, if he is left to carry on, business as usual, what is to stop him from doing it again?? I am not arguing with you over the dysplasia, s*@T happens, but I do not feel he should be allowed to not stand behind his pups if he made such a guarantee with no consequences. You may think its ok to sit idly by as more get a screwing but not this boy. It is not ok. Do what you say you are gonna do. It's simple. You can have your idea of "acceptable" and I'll have mine.


It doesn't matter if I think it's acceptable or not, it is against the policy of this board. Don't drag Chris into another pissing contest. There are at least two sides to every story, Chris doesn't need to moderate another "who done what said what" over what is a private business matter. It's that simple.


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## gdluck (May 27, 2005)

After having a pup with bilateral FCP, fractured coronoid process, which is only slightly different than what your dog has I cannot believe that dog never showed symptoms. Sorry to be blunt but those bone chips are huge as compared to what my dogs were. While i agree the breeder should make good i know that, that warranty is the least of your problems now. Sorry you have to go through this, just know going in that elbow displaysia is way worse than hip. The front legs carry the majority of the dogs weight and it is a much more complicated joint. 

Ther are a lot of things to consider going forward, many of them I didn't think of or understand when it all happened. I'd be happy to talk if you want some information from someone who has been, is, there.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> It doesn't matter if I think it's acceptable or not, it is against the policy of this board. Don't drag Chris into another pissing contest. There are at least two sides to every story, Chris doesn't need to moderate another "who done what said what" over what is a private business matter. It's that simple.


Wow, you obviously have your mind made up. Like I tried to say before, we will have to agree to disagree. I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong. Thats fine. Stand behind the illegitimate business practices of another by saying nothing. I personally think we should know who he is to steer clear of him. You obviously think this violates some sort of "code". That is the beatiful thing about this country...we can disagree and still believe we are right. Now, lets stop making this our problem and get back to the real problem....the wrongful business practises of a crooked breeder.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JoeOverby said:


> Wow, you obviously have your mind made up. Like I tried to say before, we will have to agree to disagree. I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong. Thats fine. Stand behind the illegitimate business practices of another by saying nothing. I personally think we should know who he is to steer clear of him. You obviously think this violates some sort of "code". That is the beatiful thing about this country...we can disagree and still believe we are right. Now, lets stop making this our problem and get back to the real problem....the wrongful business practises of a crooked breeder.


Tell you what, Chris and FOM are at trials this weekend, so why don't you pm Vicky Trainor and ask whether she thinks it's okay to name this breeder on this thread. Then you'll have your answer. This isn't the first time, won't be the last, they all end the same way, thread or post gets deleted and Chris has to waste his time reminding RTFers not to post names publicly in cases such as this. It isn't a secret code. It's a matter of liability for Chris, the FORUM owner. But if Vicky says okay, have a heyday with it.


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## JoeOverby (Jan 2, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> Tell you what, Chris and FOM are at trials this weekend, so why don't you pm Vicky Trainor and ask whether she thinks it's okay to name this breeder on this thread. Then you'll have your answer. This isn't the first time, won't be the last, they all end the same way, thread or post gets deleted and Chris has to waste his time reminding RTFers not to post names publicly in cases such as this. It isn't a secret code. It's a matter of liability for Chris, the FORUM owner. But if Vicky says okay, have a heyday with it.


OK, I tried to be nice and steer this in another direction. I have tried to pm you to take our argument off of this board. Do not think that I will sit here and ALLOW you to tell me what to do as if you're my mama. Last time, agree to disagree.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JoeOverby said:


> OK, I tried to be nice and steer this in another direction. I have tried to pm you to take our argument off of this board. Do not think that I will sit here and ALLOW you to tell me what to do as if you're my mama. Last time, agree to disagree.


ROFL. Doesn't matter, up to the OP to name the breeder or not. Chill, dude.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Suggestion. Joe, call or pm the op and ask him for the name of the bad breeder. You post that to whoever you want to on your own site or tell everyone you know. RTF is not the cop of the world, and its organizers should not be subjected to libel suits. 

Kim, don't respond any further to Joe. He's a Georgia boy! 

Joe, don't be offended, I was born there.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

To use RTF to iron out a personal business dispute is NOT ALLOWED!!

As others have said in this thread, it would be highly inappropriate to post the breeders' names on this site. Anyone doing so could be subject to being banned from utilizing RTF in the future.

If this post does not make it perfectly clear that the breeder's name is not to be posted, please contact me immediately via PM for more clarification.


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

gdluck said:


> After having a pup with bilateral FCP, fractured coronoid process, which is only slightly different than what your dog has I cannot believe that dog never showed symptoms. Sorry to be blunt but those bone chips are huge as compared to what my dogs were. While i agree the breeder should make good i know that, that warranty is the least of your problems now. Sorry you have to go through this, just know going in that elbow displaysia is way worse than hip. The front legs carry the majority of the dogs weight and it is a much more complicated joint.
> 
> Ther are a lot of things to consider going forward, many of them I didn't think of or understand when it all happened. I'd be happy to talk if you want some information from someone who has been, is, there.



yes any and all info would be a great help, Thank you very much


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Vicky Trainor said:


> To use RTF to iron out a personal business dispute is NOT ALLOWED!!


i don't think what Joe is suggesting is for the OP to iron out a personal business dispute. But rather, if there was a breeder NOT standing behind his word and contracts, seems like a community of retriever trainers/breeders/owners would need to know who he is for their protection.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Gatorb said:


> i don't think what Joe is suggesting is for the OP to iron out a personal business dispute. But rather, if there was a breeder NOT standing behind his word and contracts, seems like a community of retriever trainers/breeders/owners would need to know who he is for their protection.


The bottom line is that NO ONE is to be thrown under the bus on RTF. I don't know how much clearer I can state that fact. Whether that be an individual or a business does not matter.

A contract between a buyer and a seller is a PERSON BUSINESS DISPUTE. If the breeder is not standing behind his word and contracts, the buyer may have legal rights to pursue. 

If someone wants to name names....I would suggest that they start their own website and accept any legal or liability issues that might arise.


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> A: Depends on the guarantee but many offer a replacement pup, not cash back.
> B: Dysplasia happens to the best of breedings. All breeders can do is hip and elbow screening and try to avoid it. If one does not offer or back up their guarantee, that's another story.
> C: "Outing" someone's business on this forum is not acceptable, it only causes Chris grief. PM the OP
> if you want to know who it is.[
> ...


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## Hairy Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

If it were me, I'd get the OFA certificate, proof of neuter, & copy of the contract, then go knocking on his door. Make him tell you face to face that he's not going to honor the contract. Let him know that you will take him to court if need be.


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## Pigpen (Nov 23, 2008)

Hairy Dawg said:


> If it were me, I'd get the OFA certificate, proof of neuter, & copy of the contract, then go knocking on his door. Make him tell you face to face that he's not going to honor the contract. Let him know that you will take him to court if need be.


The breeder is not local to the OP. It's hard to do this when they are 10-12hrs away. Although, I agree with the rest of this.


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## Hairy Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

Pigpen said:


> The breeder is not local to the OP. It's hard to do this when they are 10-12hrs away. Although, I agree with the rest of this.


Didn't think about that problem.


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## quint (Jul 15, 2008)

quint said:


> Rainmaker said:
> 
> 
> > A: Depends on the guarantee but many offer a replacement pup, not cash back.
> ...


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## Hairy Dawg (Mar 8, 2009)

Here's a thought on how to reveal the breeder without naming them. Once your pup has any test listed on OFA's website, post your dogs registerd name & registration number. OFA will link everything back to the parent dogs & owners if they are in their database. A quick search, and anyone can find it. 

Maybe a satisfactory compromise?

Well, that may not work either. Just realized that breeder name isn't listed on OFA's site.


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Hairy Dawg said:


> Here's a thought on how to reveal the breeder without naming them. Once your pup has any test listed on OFA's website, post your dogs registerd name & registration number. OFA will link everything back to the parent dogs & owners if they are in their database. A quick search, and anyone can find it.
> 
> Maybe a satisfactory compromise?
> 
> Well, that may not work either. Just realized that breeder name isn't listed on OFA's site.


I don't know why you are trying to skirt around what the owner of this site wishes not to be done. 

If anyone wants to know who the breeder is, I am sure that the owner would be more than happy to disclose that information to them in a PM or an email.

If Chris wants to reopen it after he has an opportunity to read it after his judging assignment this weekend, that can be his call.


I am closing this thread at this point. Please take any further discussion to PM status. Thanks.


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