# Honoring at HT



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

So we ran a HT this weekend (Senior) and I noticed that almost all the dogs did it in a sitting position. (Sometimes the handler on a knee next to the dog.) But I've always put my dog on a down. I think I was the only person to do so. Apparently, this seemed strange to the judge who cautioned me that the dog had to be able to see the marks. (There was nothing obstructing the dog's view.) I wanted to ask if I had to wake her up as well (she's a fairly low key dog and when she's done, she's done) but that would have been rude. So, my question is...

How come more people don't do a down stay on honor?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Most people just don't do it. No reason, just dont. Before the rule clarification several years ago some judges thought they could dictate a sit on honor. As long as they can see marks, no problem. As a judge I don't like handler down on a knee or bent over the dog.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Yeah... that's kinda what I thought. You couldn't really say one way of the other if they were touching their dogs. With the dog on a DOWN... there's no question. 

I was just surprised that the judge was surprised. When she told me to be sure that the dog could see the mark, I had her sit up again, face the marks and go DOWN again. So... heck... if she isn't looking at the marks, what am I supposed to do?


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I've honored with my dog on a "down" before. My thinking was that I was communicating to the dog that he wasn't going and also thinking that if the dog has to get up off the ground before he can break then he is less likely to break (just like a dog on a place board or dog stand is less likely to break). The only requirement is that the dog be able to see the marks. Some folks position themselves so as to impair the dog's view so the judges are (rightfully) on the look out for that. If the grass was high or there was some other obstacle which required that the dog be sitting to see the marks you might (theoretically) have a judge correctly require your dog to get up to a sitting position IMO. But if you are not doing anything to cause it and the dog just isn't interested (I've seen this) because the dog knows it is done or whatever, then there really isn't anything they can do. There is no requirement that the dog actually mark the birds just that they be able to see the marks. If you put the dog where it is supposed to be and don't do anything to cause it to not be able to see the marks then it is what it is.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

A judge cannot tell you the position of a dog in honor however a judge could ask the handler to sit on a bucket/ stool or move the handler some distance away 
Dk


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

When you hunt, what is the honor dogs job?


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## 2dc (Nov 7, 2011)

When I am judging I don't like the handler kneeling or standing over the dog to me it looks like the handler is trying to intimate the dog. I like the handler either on a bucket or standing normal. As long as the dog can see the marks he can either be sitting or lying down.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Or the honor dog standing #7 as long the honor dog doesn't interfere with the working dog 

Once saw an honor dog dropped for howling and I mean howling all through the marks. 
Dk


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

The scenario is that both dogs are hunting and should be prepared to retrieve the birds. If you were hunting, you likely wouldn't have your dog in the down position. Did you run as working dog from the down position? People put their dog in the down position because they are not adequately trained to honor in the sit position. It is a crutch.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

captainjack said:


> The scenario is that both dogs are hunting and should be prepared to retrieve the birds. If you were hunting, you likely wouldn't have your dog in the down position. Did you run as working dog from the down position? People put their dog in the down position because they are not adequately trained to honor in the sit position. It is a crutch.



Agree completely.

I think this is an area where AKC hunt tests have missed the mark. It should be possible for the judges to require the honoring dog to retrieve a diversion bird. This is currently not allowed.

However, when I am judging I have no problem with people putting their dog in a down-stay, as it is allowed by the regulations.

I have seen it backfire, though. The honor dog stood up to see the flyer and once it was moving, it just kept moving forward, to the point that it interfered with the working dog.-Paul


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I don't put my dog down (I probably should), but I do turn and face away from the birds as a way of conveying to him that he is not going after these birds. A lot of folks turn into the dog for the same reason. One man's crutch might be another man's realization that he might need to do anything and everything he can for some dogs in the honor situation.



captainjack said:


> The scenario is that both dogs are hunting and should be prepared to retrieve the birds. If you were hunting, you likely wouldn't have your dog in the down position. Did you run as working dog from the down position? People put their dog in the down position because they are not adequately trained to honor in the sit position. It is a crutch.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> I don't put my dog down (I probably should), but I do turn and face away from the birds as a way of conveying to him that he is not going after these birds. A lot of folks turn into the dog for the same reason. One man's crutch might be another man's realization that he might need to do anything and everything he can for some dogs in the honor situation.



To each, their own.

I prefer to teach the dog a unique cue phrase and enforce zero movement. At least so far, this has resulted in my dogs being relaxed, confident and stress-free when on an honor. You'll notice I said "so far"- LOL!!-Paul


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

paul young said:


> Agree completely.
> 
> I think this is an area where AKC hunt tests have missed the mark. It should be possible for the judges to require the honoring dog to retrieve a diversion bird. This is currently not allowed....-Paul


Where in the rule book is the honor dog prohibited from retrieving a bird(s.) "Double honors" - dogs taking turns retrieving used to be fairly common years back and the book still has that scenario of "two dogs working a hedgerow." From p 36 of the HT Regs:
"For example, a dog and handler can walk along a hedgerow
and a bird or birds can be released from different areas
along the row. In a test such as this, more than one dog can
be taken on a hunt at the same time. In Senior and Master,
one can honor while the other retrieves, and the roles can be
reversed as you walk further down the row."

The wording on diversion birds requires that the diversion bird is always retrieved by the "working dog." But the roles of the working and honoring dogs can be reversed as above.


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## Tom Lehr (Sep 11, 2008)

To assume that downing your dog on the honor is a crutch or that the dog is not adequately trained is narrow minded in my opinion. Some people hunt their dog from a dog hut. The dog is taught to lay there until called to work.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Good Dogs said:


> Where in the rule book is the honor dog prohibited from retrieving a bird(s.).


Good Dogs it is NOT written anywhere, so I personally emailed Mr. Jerry Mann and asked this same question and to no surprise I was not given a direct answer either way, but he basically directed me that all birds must be picked up by the "working" dog. 


I to feel the same way Mr. Paul Young feels as the Honoring dog "should" be allowed to retrieve a bird.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

captainjack said:


> The scenario is that both dogs are hunting and should be prepared to retrieve the birds. If you were hunting, you likely wouldn't have your dog in the down position. Did you run as working dog from the down position? People put their dog in the down position because they are not adequately trained to honor in the sit position. It is a crutch.


One of the frustrations of guiding in rice country is that most dogs from away will not hunt from the down position. Most of their owners claim their paragons will hunt however they're told to, but when a call is blown, they're almost all sitting up looking just like a hunter's dog on the levee.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

IMHO this honor and working dog question is great 
What I can offer and my view only plus I have been wrong 

In "olden days" I have seen rather often a walk up double where each dog got 1 retrieve and honored the other. 
Now with the reg changes defining triples and what must be done it seems that walk up senerio disappeared 

For all these scenarios about how you do honors and your body/hand position consider never doing anything all the time. How would you handle a true remote honor 
Just me as I think sit means sit 
Sometimes my dogs don't sit, sometimes they don't mark and sometimes they don't cast. 
Dk


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## Newf (Jul 13, 2010)

Any honoring I have done with my dog is from a sitting position with a NO BIRD command and he's knows no to move. However I think its a very handy thing to have trained a solid down command. Ive hunted field hunted ducks with my dog laying in the wide open just behind the blind. Solid as a brown rock...


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

With the dog I ran this weekend, I could put her on an honor (in any posture), go back to the car... grab a snack, then walk back to pick her up after the working dog was finished. She is no threat to go. So, for us the down is just a signal that these are not her birds.

With the young pup, it will be both a signal (not your birds) and a threat... kinda (you're on a down, don't even think about moving.) I am confident that over time the signal part of it will increase in her mind and the threat will decrease. 

We only run AKC HT's so any critique that the honor is un-hunting-ish, I guess it would have to be addressed to the big-wigs who write the rules.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

captainjack said:


> The scenario is that both dogs are hunting and should be prepared to retrieve the birds. If you were hunting, you likely wouldn't have your dog in the down position. Did you run as working dog from the down position? People put their dog in the down position because they are not adequately trained to honor in the sit position. It is a crutch.



This is my opinion also! The honor dog is there for a reason. It's job is to mark falls in case its service is needed. That dog is an important part of a hunt. I bet that dog didnt lay down when it was the working dog,because it needed to SEE!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

paul young said:


> To each, their own.
> 
> I prefer to teach the dog a unique cue phrase and enforce zero movement. At least so far, this has resulted in my dogs being relaxed, confident and stress-free when on an honor. You'll notice I said "so far"- LOL!!-Paul


As we all know, there are those that have and those that are about to as far as breaking goes. I do all that too (cue "no bird" and such), but my pro suggested I do what he does and make the honor as different as possible. It made sense to me because my dog does not need much of an excuse. He loves him some ducks, and I was not near the trainer that this dog needed when he was younger.


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## Olddog (Feb 28, 2009)

If you really want to test a dogs honoring ability have him honor a shot flyer.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

I teach my dogs to honor in a down. It is a clear signal that they are done working until I tell them otherwise. Not a crutch--no different than those who turn into the dog, or face away from the birds. It is a queue that the dog is done working for now.

Meredith


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Olddog said:


> If you really want to test a dogs honoring ability have him honor a shot flyer.


This already done in most SH tests. Dog walks up while the other dog is sitting off to the side. Birds are put to flight, including a flyer, and downed. The the working dog is released and the honor dog goes to the truck. What's the issue?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Olddog said:


> If you really want to test a dogs honoring ability have him honor a shot flyer.


This is done often.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> As we all know, there are those that have and those that are about to as far as breaking goes. I do all that too (cue "no bird" and such), but my pro suggested I do what he does and make the honor as different as possible. It made sense to me because my dog does not need much of an excuse. He loves him some ducks, and I was not near the trainer that this dog needed when he was younger.


Hey Steve,

Some dogs you have to send twice,

Some dogs you don't have to send twice.

And some dogs don't have to be sent at all!!!! :shock:


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> This is my opinion also! The honor dog is there for a reason. It's job is to mark falls in case its service is needed. That dog is an important part of a hunt. I bet that dog didnt lay down when it was the working dog,because it needed to SEE!


I agree 100%. In a hunting scenario, the honor dog is there to work not sight see. He may not need to pick up the birds but he may. I like asking the honor dog to do something from time to time. Disclaimer, this thought process will get you on the judging black list quickly.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> This is my opinion also! The honor dog is there for a reason. It's job is to mark falls in case its service is needed. That dog is an important part of a hunt. I bet that dog didnt lay down when it was the working dog,because it needed to SEE!


Correct - I know nothing of HT's or their rules but in FT's - Page 26



> "10. When on line, a handler should not place his dog or himself so that the dog's full vision of the bird is blocked as it falls.
> This applies to the working dog & the honoring dog. Violation of this provision, if determined by the judges to be deliberate,
> is sufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake."


If you place your dog in a down position that is deliberate & you should be disqualified. If the judge allows that to happen, they are 
making their own rules.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ken Newcomb said:


> I agree 100%. In a hunting scenario, the honor dog is there to work not sight see. He may not need to pick up the birds but he may. I like asking the honor dog to do something from time to time. Disclaimer, this thought process will get you on the judging black list quickly.


But that's the way it should be done-play the game. I like the HRC honor because the handler of the honor dog is calling and shooting. Even though most handlers still give cues that let the dog know they won't be retrieving, they are still more involved in test.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Marvin S said:


> Correct - I know nothing of HT's or their rules but in FT's - Page 26
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What if putting the dog in a down does not in any way block its full vision?

Here is the hunting scenario. Field hunting ducks/geese with multiple dogs taking turns retrieving, not my dogs turn to work, she goes in a down in her mutt hut but can still see the birds fall.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

IowaBayDog said:


> What if putting the dog in a down does not in any way block its full vision?
> 
> Here is the hunting scenario. Field hunting ducks/geese with multiple dogs taking turns retrieving, not my dogs turn to work, she goes in a down in her mutt hut but can still see the birds fall.


Dogs work from the down position routinely in hunting scenarios. Did you run as working dog from the down position? If not, why not? Was it because you wanted your dog to be able to see?


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

captainjack said:


> The scenario is that both dogs are hunting and should be prepared to retrieve the birds. If you were hunting, you likely wouldn't have your dog in the down position. Did you run as working dog from the down position? People put their dog in the down position because they are not adequately trained to honor in the sit position. It is a crutch.


I disagree. If he is always in a down on honor and is never allowed to go- they know it. In master I see dogs honor on down, all the time...... 
Also, Captainjack, Most of my client want their dogs DOWN next to the blind-so thats actually innacurate too.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

captainjack said:


> Dogs work from the down position routinely in hunting scenarios. Did you run as working dog from the down position? If not, why not? Was it because you wanted your dog to be able to see?


If she was or wasn't in the down position as a working dog would have to do with whether or not the ducks/geese could see her or not. I prefer the down position working out of layout blinds. 

My two statements/questions in the original post were not meant to be taken together. One was answering Marvin's rule post. The other was addressing Moosegooser's question of "when would you down a honor dog in a hunting situation". In a hunting situation I only have to follow my own rules, in a Hunt test you have to follow the AKC, HRC, etc rules.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Run enough tests, and you'll be lucky if your dog will stay in a nice down &-or sit, and not roll-over to scratch his back, kicking his legs for a belly rub  We had a rather interesting Honor last test I ran, short retrievers in a small area. The honor dog had to stay for all the pick ups; thus preventing both dogs from crossing paths; and handlers ending up in the creek. After the working dog leaves for the 1st retrieve, my dog gets up-heading to the truck; gets a couple of yards looks back at me like I'm insane "why aren't we leaving?", comes back lays btw the judges, rubs against their chair and turns upside down for a belly rub, while begging for a bite of sandwich, which she gets. Dogs get programmed on what's expected of them, honor =(no-birds & leave). 8 yrs and they can still Embarrass yah 

If a dogs gonna break it's gonna break regardless of position. If the judges want get all adamant about having the dog to sit, I tell my dogs to sit. She'll still knows she's honoring, and most likely she'll lay down on her own (nothing the judges can do about that). I guess last week showed me she'll also leave on her own, probably put herself in the truck as well. (I swear all I do is drive her around ) Sit, Down, whatever Seems like a little insignificant thing for a judge to get all bent out of shape about. 

Still my dog hunts on a solid down, under a tarp, we hunt out of pits; a sitting dog would flare birds; a moving &-or sitting dog could get shot. Dog stays down period; better be able to mark and run from that position; and better not move until directed to do so.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Tom Lehr said:


> To assume that downing your dog on the honor is a crutch or that the dog is not adequately trained is narrow minded in my opinion. Some people hunt their dog from a dog hut. The dog is taught to lay there until called to work.



Agree. Like so many other "crutches" we use. 
Is an early 30 yard whistle to gain control when the dog is on line to a blind a crutch for a dog that won't handle well at distance?


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

paul young said:


> Agree completely.
> 
> I think this is an area where AKC hunt tests have missed the mark. It should be possible for the judges to require the honoring dog to retrieve a diversion bird. This is currently not allowed.
> 
> ...


We did a "double-double with a double honor" in a Master test I judged a few years ago. Long memory bird, short go bird splashing in front of the dogs. "Honor dog" picks up one bird, while the "working dog" honors, (obviously all picked up the bird splashing bird right in front). Then, the 2nd double is thrown, and "working dog" picks up the remaining 3 birds, while the "honor dog" honors. I think it could still be legally done today, although I think you would need two other triples. The "double - doubles" used to be pretty common, but are rarely done today.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

That double double with a double honor sounds like a logistics & time management nightmare. If & when a dog breaks, the offending dog cannot honor on lead because a mark has to be retrieved. Bye dogs need to be on standby all day. Probably a fun test but not practical in this era.


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## runnindawgz (Oct 3, 2007)

captainjack said:


> T People put their dog in the down position because they are not adequately trained to honor in the sit position. It is a crutch.


Wow - thats a pretty bold statement. 

ALL of my dogs honor on a "down" I assure you they are "Adequately trained to honor in a sit position" ... I use Down on honor as a communication tool I begin at a young age. 

My dogs can ALWAYS see the birds and the working dog from the down position.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Another great honor story - just a few years ago as I watched from the gallery the honor dog gets up before any marks are thrown. First he comes to the gallery and then trots over to the judges partially eaten lunch and has a snack. Honor dog then makes it back to the honor location as the working dog is on the 2nd retrieve. He promptly burbs 

Honor dog was dropped due to not staying on honor : there was a protest and the judges decision was final 
Dk


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

fishduck said:


> That double double with a double honor sounds like a logistics & time management nightmare. If & when a dog breaks, the offending dog cannot honor on lead because a mark has to be retrieved. Bye dogs need to be on standby all day. *Probably a fun test but not practical in this era.*


It actually wasn't near as bad as you think. Only needed a bye dog if the "honor dog" broke. But that's like any water test especially with an honor. I don't remember any "honor dogs" breaking, only a few "working dogs" as the cold honor on the short bird probably took out any prone to breaking. ;-) It didn't take much time at all for a pickup dog to pick up that short bird in the water. Much less time than it would have taken to run the test, as there was at least 1 water blind. 

Is "Not practical in this era" code for you will never see it at a Master National? As I had a Pro, tell me that about a test at the last master test that I judged after several Master dogs broke. I said "maybe they should".


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Billie said:


> I disagree. If he is always in a down on honor and is never allowed to go- they know it. In master I see dogs honor on down, all the time......
> Also, Captainjack, Most of my client want their dogs DOWN next to the blind-so thats actually innacurate too.


You are making my point. Two dogs are hunting. Whichever Hunter downs the bird sends their dog. Both dogs should be up and ready to retrieve, or both should be down in a mut hut or whatever and be ready to retrieve. Dogs put in the down position because they know they aren't going to retrieve are not "playing the game". If the dogs were steady, there would be no need to put in the down position so they know they aren't going to retrieve.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Who says a dog can not mark/see birds in the down position while honoring or working? If ya hunt enough you know they can and do. 

I've had an older dog I was running in a Qual who had to sit through a re-bird and a lunch run while he was on the honor....while all that was going on he laid down and proceeded to relax...when the working dog came to the line, I had him sit up, but by the time the working dog got settled at the line and called for the birds he laid back down, not moving from the honor spot, but he decided laying in the cool grass was more interesting and yummy to eat....every time a bird went off he'd look up at the gunning station and then proceed to eat grass....I motioned to the judges if they wanted me to try and get him back in the sit position, they didn't care as long as I was not blocking his view of the guns which I was not. Once the working dog left the line, my dog stood up, stretched and we walked off the line. The judges were friends and later that weekend we joked about my dog being an old hand and just enjoying the summer day.

I think it's a mountain out of a mole hill - sit vs. laying down on the honor.

As a side note, I've seen plenty of dogs who would rather just go back to the truck rather than honor - their handlers having to call them back to the line, but all the dog does is look over their shoulder longing for the shade of the truck...these are games we play and as a judge it's pretty obvious if a dog is steady or not for the most part.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

road kill said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> Some dogs you have to send twice,
> 
> ...


I've never seen the first one but I have seen the second and third ones.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

captainjack said:


> You are making my point. Two dogs are hunting. Whichever Hunter downs the bird sends their dog. Both dogs should be up and ready to retrieve, or both should be down in a mut hut or whatever and be ready to retrieve. Dogs put in the down position because they know they aren't going to retrieve are not "playing the game". If the dogs were steady, there would be no need to put in the down position so they know they aren't going to retrieve.


I see what you are saying, but we all know when a dog is on honor he is not going, and if he goes (in Master) you are done, so my thinking is communicate to the dog "You ain't going right now." Since it is within the rules, I think I will keep on going the way I am going.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

captainjack said:


> If the dogs were steady, there would be no need to put in the down position so they know they aren't going to retrieve.


By this logic you shouldn't say anything nor do anything when a dog's to honor; no leave it, no bird, no sit or stay; no mumbling under your breath, or turning away etc. etc. Heck even the judge using "is the honor dog ready" just might be a cue to the dog that he's not supposed to get the bird. These dogs do this all the time they know when its time to honor. A steady dogs knows to stay; they know they aren't gonna get a bird. Sit or down is only geography, It's not going to keep a dog that's going to break; steady. It's also not going to affect a steady dog whether he's sitting or not. So go ahead and make them sit. Of course the handlers might think your a tad micro-managing as a judge if you go out of your way to inform everyone that "they MUST do it this way" even if it's not in the book; there will be grumbling, rule-books will be brought to the line, comments will go to both judges and to the hunt-test committee, might even get a call to the regional rep on it. A whole bunch of junk, just so we ensure we see a dog sitting, while it's not retrieving a bird. Or we could just let the dog honor, however it want as long as it stays in place; doesn't cause any issues to the working dog, and doesn't disrupt the hunt; just call it good


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Marvin S said:


> Correct - I know nothing of HT's or their rules but in FT's - Page 26
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hold on... the dog could see the test just fine. In response to the judge's surprise, I sat her up, made darned sure she was facing the test and told her to down. We were on an isthmus like bit of land between two bodies of water. No vegetation, nothing to block her view. How should this DQ my dog?


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

BTW: The next day in the Senior stake, there was an honor in pretty tight quarters. The working dog had to come out of the holding blind along a fairly narrow route dictated by the judges (had to do with where they needed their chairs to be to see the dogs work) and the honor dog was maybe 6 or 7 feet away, and the working dog ran smack in front of the honor dog on the way to the go bird. 

It ate up a lot of young high rollers. I would absolutely put my young dog on a down (and nail her tail to the ground) and that's kinda one of the reasons I asked the question. These dogs were clearly threats to go, and it seems to me the handler could have helped the dog a little by putting them on a down stay and saying "NO BIRD" to boot.

But they didn't. I found it interesting in light of what had happened to me the day before (the judge admonishing me when I downed my dog.)


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

If the judge tells you to sit your dog in a remote honor and step away.... do you follow the judges directions? Or do you disagree? 
Handlers handle. Judges judge. Dogs should do as directed on the line. 
If the judge tells you "We have a down the shore blind as the last bird. If you line the dog fat or scallop, or the dog runs the bank, you will be dropped." 
Do you argue? 
If the judge tells you "Sit your dog for the honor." Do you disagree? 

These are HT's. Not hunting. Follow the judges. They will be sitting in the truck going over their sheets and they do not care how you train or hunt. They only care how you followed the HT as explained. 

BTW. Handlers have judges lists, so maybe judges have handler lists as well as HT Chairs, Sec's and committee's...
Jess sayin'. It's a wiggely world....



JDogger


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

No. She did not tell me to SIT the dog. (Had she said that I would have responded "Ma'am, Yes, Ma'am", saluted and made the dog SIT. I'd have had to wake the dog up to do it, but that's what I would have done.) 

To your point, on the following day, we had a blind that paralleled the shore. The handlers were told to keep the dogs in the water. I was the first to run it (Oh, joy) so we were TWEET-over-TWEET-back-TWEET-over-TWEET-back-etc. etc. But she answered every whistle, took every cast and stayed in the water.)

The judge on Saturday just seemed surprised when I put the dog on a down. I didn't know if it was just an Oregon thing, or what... since I was the only handler doing it and the judge seemed surprised.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

1tulip said:


> No. She did not tell me to SIT the dog. (Had she said that I would have responded "Ma'am, Yes, Ma'am", saluted and made the dog SIT. I'd have had to wake the dog up to do it, but that's what I would have done.)
> 
> To your point, on the following day, we had a blind that paralleled the shore. The handlers were told to keep the dogs in the water. I was the first to run it (Oh, joy) so we were TWEET-over-TWEET-back-TWEET-over-TWEET-back-etc. etc. But she answered every whistle, took every cast and stayed in the water.)
> 
> The judge on Saturday just seemed surprised when I put the dog on a down. I didn't know if it was just an Oregon thing, or what... since I was the only handler doing it and the judge seemed surprised.


Well then... good. Did you pass? JD


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Nobody answered my question!
> 
> what is the Honor dogs job, when you are hunting?


Watch for the game warden?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Doug Main said:


> It actually wasn't near as bad as you think. Only needed a bye dog if the "honor dog" broke. But that's like any water test especially with an honor. I don't remember any "honor dogs" breaking, only a few "working dogs" as the cold honor on the short bird probably took out any prone to breaking. ;-) It didn't take much time at all for a pickup dog to pick up that short bird in the water. Much less time than it would have taken to run the test, as there was at least 1 water blind.
> 
> Is "Not practical in this era" code for you will never see it at a Master National? As I had a Pro, tell me that about a test at the last master test that I judged after several Master dogs broke. I said "maybe they should".


No code. But with handlers running 20+ dogs in Master & often minor stakes also, this type of honor takes too long. Instead or running with 2 dogs between, probably need 3. Poor junior/senior judges wait forever & the chair sweats the time management aspect.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

captainjack said:


> You are making my point. Two dogs are hunting. Whichever Hunter downs the bird sends their dog. Both dogs should be up and ready to retrieve, or both should be down in a mut hut or whatever and be ready to retrieve. Dogs put in the down position because they know they aren't going to retrieve are not "playing the game". If the dogs were steady, there would be no need to put in the down position so they know they aren't going to retrieve.


I categorically disagree with this entire line of reasoning. We aren't playing a game, we are testing a dogs skill level. The dogs position has no bearing on if he is ready to retrieve or not. It also has no bearing if the dog is steady or not. The dog should understand if he is going to retriever or not based on the commands. Frankly a dogs ability to work or honor in both a sitting or down position demonstrates a higher level of trainability. 

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

1tulip said:


> No. She did not tell me to SIT the dog. (Had she said that I would have responded "Ma'am, Yes, Ma'am", saluted and made the dog SIT. I'd have had to wake the dog up to do it, but that's what I would have done.)
> 
> To your point, on the following day, we had a blind that paralleled the shore. The handlers were told to keep the dogs in the water. I was the first to run it (Oh, joy) so we were TWEET-over-TWEET-back-TWEET-over-TWEET-back-etc. etc. But she answered every whistle, took every cast and stayed in the water.)
> 
> The judge on Saturday just seemed surprised when I put the dog on a down. I didn't know if it was just an Oregon thing, or what... since I was the only handler doing it and the judge seemed surprised.


I'm thinking I was one of the judges this scenario was based on.  If so, I can tell you that neither my co-judge or I cared what position the dogs where in. I just hope you had a good time and enjoyed the test we designed.....


/Paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I categorically disagree with this entire line of reasoning. We aren't playing a game, we are testing a dogs skill level. The dogs position has no bearing on if he is ready to retrieve or not. It also has no bearing if the dog is steady or not. The dog should understand if he is going to retriever or not based on the commands. Frankly a dogs ability to work or honor in both a sitting or down position demonstrates a higher level of trainability.
> 
> /Paul


Explain the wooden gun then...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Explain the wooden gun then...


Show me in the guidelines where it talks about wooden guns and I'll explain it to you. Is that really your rebuttal?

/Paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Show me in the guidelines where it talks about wooden guns and I'll explain it to you. Is that really your rebuttal?
> 
> /Paul


If all you were doing in an AKC hunt test was testing the dog's skill level, the rules would not require you to shoulder a broom stick. 

Chapter 1 Section 8:
Shouldering the Gun In Senior and Master Tests, handlers shall always carry and shoulder an empty shotgun except when honoring the working dog or when running a blind. The gun shall not be used as a pointing device to direct the dog’s attention to the bird.

I've never seen an actual gun used, but shouldering an empty gun is also "playing the game" and not testing the skill of the dog. 

So your position is the handlers who place their dogs in the down position to honor could honor sitting in an alert position, but they are just showing off because honoring in the down position shows better training.

That's a good argument. You should run for office if you can sell that story.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

1tulip said:


> Hold on... the dog could see the test just fine. In response to the judge's surprise, I sat her up, made darned sure she was facing the test and told her to down. We were on an isthmus like bit of land between two bodies of water. No vegetation, nothing to block her view. How should this DQ my dog?


Please understand - I know nothing of HT's but do know just a little bit about FT's - 
My statement is valid for FT's, it is your right to remain clueless .


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

captainjack said:


> If all you were doing in an AKC hunt test was testing the dog's skill level, the rules would not require you to shoulder a broom stick.
> 
> Chapter 1 Section 8:
> Shouldering the Gun In Senior and Master Tests, handlers shall always carry and shoulder an empty shotgun except when honoring the working dog or when running a blind. The gun shall not be used as a pointing device to direct the dog’s attention to the bird.
> ...


 So by rule I guess those clubs are in violation of the rules by using a wooden gun.  I fail to see how teaching your dog down is a crutch. I guess your standards are just lower than mine when it comes to trainability. 

/Paul


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Eric Johnson said:


> Watch for the game warden?


 Good one…I am still laughing. 

Great thread guys….
Something to ponder…
A group of birds come in and both hunters bring down game….
We know want the rules are in shooting in our space….

Is it possible to have two working dogs given the space between both hunters? 
That can only happen if both dogs are allowed to see the birds come down.


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## Rob DeHaven (Jan 6, 2003)

The job of the honor dog is to honor. If the dog picks up a bird then it becomes a working dog or a breaking honor dog that then becomes a working dog. That's my take. Its just a part of the test/game to see how steady both dogs can/will be with another dog present. I have had judges in AKC and HRC tell the handlers their dogs could not be in the down position. Had it happen this past weekend as a matter of fact. Carry on.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Having a dog that will readily DOWN is actually a pain in the ass sometimes running blinds. It's a wrinkle in training that might be easier to avoid if you don't need the skill otherwise and a lot of people in the past have absolutely done so. A dog that never gets rewarded in DOWN probably isn't going to make a mistake on a blind when the whistle is blown.

That same dog probably isn't going to drop to the ground when you're walking in and some birds are already circling the pond either. 

I'll take the latter vs. the former please. 

As for honoring in a DOWN, with all the crap I see people trying to pull in hunting tests to get their dog to do the job, that would be the least of my concerns.

If you hunt out of a Barnegat style boat, good luck with your dog sitting up


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

if your dog has its best chance of seeing a thrown or shot bird lying down,,then why do you have him sitting at the line when he is working? If you as a handler has that choice,why do you choose sitting?

To me,,, just my OPINION, if you come to the line as the working dog, and sit that dog to Mark,,, then when you go to the Honor bucket, and tell the dog to down,, to ME, you have just told the Judge your dog is finished working..

He is NOT!! When hunting,,he MAY be required to pick up birds that fell!

It cracks me up when you are at a test, and the HONOR dog is excused after the working dog picks up and is returning with his first bird. But then, the working dog for what ever reason,couldnt find his next birds, or the handler picks up his dog for lets say line manner issues,and leaves the line! Its funny to me to see the Judges clamoring for pick up dog!!!

Why did you as a Judge excuse the HONOR dog in the middle of a situation where there are birds on the ground?? What the He## is the Honor dogs job!! 

I thought these HT were sposed to replicate a days hunt???


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> if your dog has its best chance of seeing a thrown or shot bird, then why do you have him sitting at the line when he is working? If you as a handler has that choice,why do you choose sitting?
> 
> To me,,, just my OPINION, if you come to the line s the working dog, and sit that dog to Mark,,, then when you go to the Honor bucket, and tell the dog to down,, to ME, you have just told the Judge your dog is finished working..
> 
> ...


Gooser, 

If the honor was run in your scenario (which I like btw) then it would be easy to weed someone out if their dog could not retrieve from a down position. However, the way honors are done, the honor dog actually IS done working, we as handlers are told that by the rules and the judges, if our dogs do any work they get dropped. Why would I as a handler not want to cue my dog in to that fact. If the judge is telling me that my dog is done working why wouldn't I tell the dog that? We are a team after all.

I think your honor scenario is more how it is done in European trials where if the working dog fails one of the honor dogs can get the bird and "wipe the face" or something like that, really not sure on that term.

The closest thing I have seen to that is a NAHRA upland test run as a brace of 2 dogs, bird is launched and shot both dogs sit to flush and the judges determine which dog retrieves so you don't know if you are the honor or working dog.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> Gooser,
> 
> If the honor was run in your scenario (which I like btw) then it would be easy to weed someone out if their dog could not retrieve from a down position. *However, the way honors are done, the honor dog actually IS done working,* we as handlers are told that by the rules and the judges, if our dogs do any work they get dropped. Why would I as a handler not want to cue my dog in to that fact. If the judge is telling me that my dog is done working why wouldn't I tell the dog that? We are a team after all.
> 
> ...


NO!!! They are NOT!!! Not in a typical days HUNTING!!! Isnt THAT what these HT are sposed to replicate!! 
I understand,,,, Just havin fun on a boring morning! Off to train!


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## Keith S. (May 6, 2005)

If you judge and make the honor dog honor all the marks, better make sure there aren't any trees around you...been there done that. 

I could care less if the honor dog lays down, but he better be able to see all the marks get thrown and see the working dog leave the line.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> NO!!! They are NOT!!! Not in a typical days HUNTING!!! Isnt THAT what these HT are sposed to replicate!!
> I understand,,,, Just havin fun on a boring morning! Off to train!


AKC Hunt Test Guidelines - Chapter 3 Section 1


> Section 1. Purpose. The purpose of a Hunting Test for Retrievers is to test the merits of and evaluate the abilities of Retrievers in the field in order to determine their suitability and ability as hunting companions. Hunting Tests must, therefore, simulate as nearly as possible the conditions met in a true hunting situation.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm thinking I was one of the judges this scenario was based on.  If so, I can tell you that neither my co-judge or I cared what position the dogs where in. I just hope you had a good time and enjoyed the test we designed.....
> 
> 
> /Paul


You bet we did. I was a first time handler and felt I made many errors and mistakes all weekend long. Much self-doubt. I came to the HT thinking the down was in fact, the normal or correct way to honor. Then I didn't see other handlers downing their dog, so... it made me nervous even though it's the position the pro had taught the dog for 7 years. So, then I started to think maybe I was doing it wrong or something. 

But, oh well. I learned a great deal and had a very good time. Everyone knocked themselves out putting on a great event. Hope our SNRC HT in Fallon is as smooth.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

HT Guide - Chapter 1 Section 6


> Section 6. Honoring. In Senior and Master Tests, every dog shall honor in at least one hunting situation involving the retrieve of a marked fall(s) by remaining on the line off-lead while the working dog retrieves, unless otherwise directed or until dismissed by the Judges.
> 
> Only one dog at a time may be required to honor the retrieve of the working dog. The honoring dog must be in an area designated by the judges. *The specific positions (sitting, lying down, etc.) of the honoring dog will be determined by the handler provided the honoring dog is positioned to clearly see all the marks without having to reposition itself.*
> Judges should be careful in establishing the honoring scenario to maintain adequate distance between dogs.
> ...


It pays to know the rules.....

/Paul


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Keith S. said:


> If you judge and make the honor dog honor all the marks, better make sure there aren't any trees around you...been there done that.


When the short rope comes out you have to really get nervous.


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## Tom Lehr (Sep 11, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> if your dog has its best chance of seeing a thrown or shot bird lying down,,then why do you have him sitting at the line when he is working? If you as a handler has that choice,why do you choose sitting?
> 
> To me,,, just my OPINION, if you come to the line as the working dog, and sit that dog to Mark,,, then when you go to the Honor bucket, and tell the dog to down,, to ME, you have just told the Judge your dog is finished working..
> 
> ...


 In an AKC Hunt Test down your dog if you like because they are not going to retrieve from the honor box. When your hunting, have them sitting ready for a retrieve if you like.....hunting is not testing & testing is not hunting.
I don't down my dog at the line because (one of the reasons) I want to see their eyes and where I think they are looking as the birds go down. On the honor lying down is a que that we are done when excused.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

JDogger said:


> If the judge tells you to sit your dog in a remote honor and step away.... do you follow the judges directions? Or do you disagree?
> Handlers handle. Judges judge. Dogs should do as directed on the line.
> If the judge tells you "We have a down the shore blind as the last bird. If you line the dog fat or scallop, or the dog runs the bank, you will be dropped."
> Do you argue?
> JDogger



In a MH test, some will argue, most will just listen to judge "blah blah" and run as they would whether the judge said all the etc.junk or not. Realistically a judge can say whatever he wants. But it all comes down to rules, and NO-one knows rules better than Master level handlers, particularly pros. The rules for a blind are clear; a HT judge cannot dictate any particular line to a blind. They can do such in Field trials, that in fact is the point of many FT blinds. All a HT judge can really do is setup a blind with a general corridor, that makes it evident where a dog should be, and if they get out of the corridor the dog-handler will get into trouble requiring recovery; if they can recover. The standard is to setup a blind and say be sure to challenge the blind; then judge accordingly. A judge would be painting themselves in to a corner, and most often be hindering newbie handlers; by providing too much explanation, which they realistically cannot enforce and still be following the rule-book . EX; A shore-line blind, general corridor (dog should be wet & dog should be close to the shore-line) If a dog gets out, good luck getting them back in (WR, CR, CR WR) =fail. If a dog goes fat and a handler distinctly lets them they are not challenging the blind=Fail. Going fat (most handler will try a couple of cast, WR CR, CR, WR,) then give up & let the dog continue going fat=fail.

The same is true with sit on honor, the judge can say whatever he wants, handler will run as they always have. If Judge makes a point about it, some people will confront him, some will just smile wake their dog up, to say sit. The smile will get bigger when the dog lies down on it's own; all while the handler is thinking what a jerk


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

It is also funny to me that when "THE" rule book gets quoted its most always the AKC rule book! 

Real Hunt Test:

Two dogs at the line. 1 working dog, 1 honor dog.
Triple mark is thrown. Two birds are thrown on the right ,and near center of the working dog. 1 other bird is thrown to the left side,kinda off to the left of the Honor dog. Both handlers call and shoot marks. First two birds come out of the right side in front of the working dog, the LBD comes out on the left in front of or slightly to the left of the Honor dog. Honor dog handler shoots that bird. Its the HONOR Handlers bird! HONOR dog is sent to pick up that LBD,,Just like hunting! Then the working dog picks up the remaining two birds that are center and right of him. Marks are now picked up, and the working dog has to run a blind, whos line is very close to the AOF of LBD that the HONOR dog picked up!!! Have FUN!!! 

Ya gonna have your Honor dog lay down?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> It is also funny to me that when "THE" rule book gets quoted its most always the AKC rule book!
> 
> Real Hunt Test:
> 
> ...


Well in fairness this was an AKC honor questions, pertaining to a test where I was the judge. Besides, HRC spends more time discussing the importance of which camo to wear vs a dogs honoring position.  

I will tell ya that my AKC lay down on honor MH's have run your setup and retrieved their birds from the down position. Just because a dog is laying down, doesn't mean its not ready to work if called upon to do so. In fact that scenario was in an AKC master test at Bob Peppers Farm in WA

/Paul


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

fishduck said:


> No code. But with handlers running 20+ dogs in Master & often minor stakes also, this type of honor takes too long. Instead or running with 2 dogs between, probably need 3. Poor junior/senior judges wait forever & the chair sweats the time management aspect.


Mark, Now Mickey and I have to change our mind on what we were going to do this weekend.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

fishduck said:


> No code. But with handlers running 20+ dogs in Master & often minor stakes also, this type of honor takes too long. Instead or running with 2 dogs between, probably need 3. Poor junior/senior judges wait forever & the chair sweats the time management aspect.


Hey Mark, You really don't know what you are talking about! Trust me, Logistics were no different than any test with an honor. Think about it, after the 1st bird is retrieved by the "honor dog", it's just a normal master test with an honor. Don't you think how long it takes the "working dog" to run the test after the honor dog is released is a bigger factor? After all a 5 min land test will need more dogs between handlers than a 15 minute water test. ;-)


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Doug Main said:


> Hey Mark, You really don't know what you are talking about! )


Quote of the day

If I see it this weekend I will be sweating bullets & cussing in Iranian. Thanks Karen!


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

fishduck said:


> Quote of the day
> 
> If I see it this weekend I will be sweating bullets & cussing in Iranian. Thanks Karen!


I thought you would want to hear that. Maybe we can make any other handlers that are running this weekend under me and Mickey sweat it out to. See you Friday


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

captainjack said:


> You are making my point. Two dogs are hunting. Whichever Hunter downs the bird sends their dog. Both dogs should be up and ready to retrieve, or both should be down in a mut hut or whatever and be ready to retrieve. Dogs put in the down position because they know they aren't going to retrieve are not "playing the game". If the dogs were steady, there would be no need to put in the down position so they know they aren't going to retrieve.


RIDICULOUS!!!
Have you ever even hunted??


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

It's playing the game just as much as a handler standing sideways to the dog with arms across chest and saying "no bird" "sit". As a well known politician said "what difference does it make"?


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

If it helps prevent the dog from breaking, I'd say it makes quite a difference, Tom.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

I think it's actually more time consuming teaching a dog to lay down on command than teaching it to sit and honor.


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## Jarnold (Apr 17, 2012)

What about kneeling next to your dog on honor rather than standing? Some judges allow it, some don't.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

My point is that both are within the rules so what's the big deal. As for being more difficult to teach, I disagree.


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## Jarnold (Apr 17, 2012)

Thomas D said:


> My point is that both are within the rules so what's the big deal. As for being more difficult to teach, I disagree.


Thomas. I agree.
I was told by a judge that I could not kneel by my dog on honor. I would not have objected if he hadn't said that kneeling is not done in a real hunting situation. 90 percent of the time due to area that I hunt I do kneel down next to my dog.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

The "down" command is part of any basic obedience program. Down on recall, down in motion are all part of advanced (2nd session) obedience.


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## DManey (Mar 18, 2014)

MooseGooser: The Real Hunt Test you described was ran in Arkansas this past weekend.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

DManey said:


> MooseGooser: The Real Hunt Test you described was ran in Arkansas this past weekend.





I remember the first time I ran that test! My Creepy renegade named Bailey! It was fun to watch the dogs, when they had to run that blind,how they were convinced there was still a bird down in that fall area,even though they sat and watched another dog pick it up!!

I was amazed we made it through the test, that I got up off the honor bucket before we were excused!  Judge didnt catch it,,, Gallery members told me when i came back to watch other dogs run!! They passed me,,,, I took it! 

That test taught me dont fart when you is sittin on a bucket! The bucket acts like a megagphone!!!


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## Mike Berube (Feb 8, 2003)

So, as a judge, how would/do you score a dog that does NOT see the working dogs marks fall?? Pass, fail, or re-run? 

An interesting honor was at the 2004 Master National in Horicon. Remote honor with a rooster flyer. Honor dog in front of the blind, handler behind the blind. I can guarantee you that every dog saw those marks go down.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Did not see because of what?


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Mike Berube said:


> So, as a judge, how would/do you score a dog that does NOT see the working dogs marks fall?? Pass, fail, or re-run?
> 
> An interesting honor was at the 2004 Master National in Horicon. Remote honor with a rooster flyer. Honor dog in front of the blind, handler behind the blind. I can guarantee you that every dog saw those marks go down.


The rules do not require that the dog actually watch each mark. Only that pup is an a position where he is able to see. And, all discussion to the contrary the position of the dog, as Tom has pointed out, is up to the handler. 
"The specific positions
(sitting, lying down, etc.) of the honoring dog will be
determined by the handler provided the honoring dog is
positioned to clearly see all the marks without having to
reposition itself."


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## Mike Berube (Feb 8, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> Did not see because of what?


Master Test

1. Dog gets up and wanders around.
2. Dog rolls on back scratching itself.
3. Dog eating grass.
4. Dog actually leaves the honor box before being released.

In every case, the honor dog "Never" sees, watches, etc. any of the working dogs marks fall, and does not interfere with the working dog.

Pass, fail, or re-run.


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## Mike Berube (Feb 8, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> The rules do not require that the dog actually watch each mark. Only that pup is an a position where he is able to see. And, all discussion to the contrary the position of the dog, as Tom has pointed out, is up to the handler.
> "The specific positions
> (sitting, lying down, etc.) of the honoring dog will be
> determined by the handler provided the honoring dog is
> ...


What is the difference between "watching each mark", and "clearly seeing all marks"?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> The rules do not require that the dog actually watch each mark. Only that pup is an a position where he is able to see. And, all discussion to the contrary the position of the dog, as Tom has pointed out, is up to the handler.
> "The specific positions
> (sitting, lying down, etc.) of the honoring dog will be
> determined by the handler provided the honoring dog is
> ...


Again,,posting rules from "THE "rule book.. (whos rule book?)

In post 87 and 88, the dog better be up, and ready to work! The rules in that scenario will require to pick up a Mark while honoring.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Fail for wandering around
? For Rollin on back would have to see that
Don't care is they eat grass, sniff or lick themselves
Fail for leaving honor box early

I'm fairly tolerant of honor manners as long as dog is where it should be. I will tell handlers to step back so there dog can see marks. If the don't I would fail them. Since there is only one honor in most cases a warning means little.

Almost like having an inch of your lead hanging out of back pocket. I know one judge who will stop test and tell you to tuck it in...........


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mike Berube said:


> What is the difference between "watching each mark", and "clearly seeing all marks"?



That question will be answered IF your dog is required to pick up a Mark while honoring..

Has "Honoring" become just demonstrating a good attentive "SIT", or "Down" ?

Like I asked earlier What is the Honor dogs job? I think if you Hunt, you know what it is. If these are Hunt tests, and you are replicating a hunt,, cant the Honor dog, or the second dog of a two dog hunt ,be required to pick up a mark while honoring another dogs work?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I just bet the guys that want to have their dog "down" on the honor,, would act differently when they were hunting with a buddy and his dog. In THAT case, I just bet his dog will be up,or if in a Hut,,Very attentive, watching for birds to fall while the hunters are working birds..

Even if in a hut, I bet the dog is up, excited, and watching to see if he gets to retrieve.

Gooser


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> I just bet the guys that want to have their dog "down" on the honor,, would act differently when they were hunting with a buddy and his dog. In THAT case, I just bet his dog will be up,or if in a Hut,,Very attentive, watching for birds to fall while the hunters are working birds..
> 
> Even if in a hut, I bet the dog is up, excited, and watching to see if he gets to retrieve.
> 
> Gooser


Why would the dog be UP if I told her to be DOWN? If what you are saying is true then isn't a dog that will remain down thru honoring even better trained/more obedient than one that is up, excited, and on the verge of breaking? You have to play the game by the rules that are dictated. The rules say your dog is done working, why wouldn't you tell your dog that too?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> Why would the dog be UP if I told her to be DOWN? If what you are saying is true then isn't a dog that will remain down thru honoring even better trained/more obedient than one that is up, excited, and on the verge of breaking? You have to play the game by the rules that are dictated.* The rules say your dog is done working,* why wouldn't you tell your dog that too?


Not ALLLLLL rules say that!!! The discussion was about the Honor at A hunt test! WHOs HUNT TEST!!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And I do understand that the OP was about an AKC test,...

The world doesnt revolve around that AKC rule book!

What do you expect of YOUR honor dog, when you hunt?
Are all these tests not Hunt tests?

We will make exceptions for unrealistic distances, plywood guns, Winger noise, but the most basic attributes, (like what the honor dogs job is) we ignore!

Bottom line for me is ,, the honor dog is a part of that days hunt, and* MIGHT *be asked to demonstrate its ability to participate if needed. The dog should be up and be eagerly attentive. Not laying down chewin a stick.


Not mad about it,,just voicing my opinion 
Gooser


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> Not ALLLLLL rules say that!!! The discussion was about the Honor at A hunt test! WHOs HUNT TEST!!!



I assume you mean your description in Post 73? In that scenario there is no honor dog, there are 2 working dogs that are required to honor each other. Big difference. If my dog was the "Honor" dog as you described it (required to retrieve the LBD) she would be the first working dog and I would have her in a sit. When she returned from that first retrieve she would immediately be put in a down and told "no bird" letting her know that her work was done. If my dog was the "working dog" as you described it (retrieving everything but the LBD) I probably would have her watch everything in the down position. Once the LBD retrieve was completed by the other dog, bring her to sit and line her up for the other 2 birds. Different game, different rules, different method. I do most of my obedience work with a Shutzhund trainer and she uses the down position in the same manner for their working scenarios. How well does this work? no idea, this is the first dog I've tried it with and it seems to work in training but we all know how that can go in a test or hunting.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> I assume you mean your description in Post 73? In that scenario there is no honor dog, there are 2 working dogs that are required to honor each other. Big difference. If my dog was the "Honor" dog as you described it (required to retrieve the LBD) she would be the first working dog and I would have her in a sit. When she returned from that first retrieve she would immediately be put in a down and told "no bird" letting her know that her work was done. If my dog was the "working dog" as you described it (retrieving everything but the LBD) I probably would have her watch everything in the down position. Once the LBD retrieve was completed by the other dog, bring her to sit and line her up for the other 2 birds. Different game, different rules, different method. I do most of my obedience work with a Shutzhund trainer and she uses the down position in the same manner for their working scenarios. How well does this work? no idea, this is the first dog I've tried it with and it seems to work in training but we all know how that can go in a test or hunting.


You are incorrect!
Per the RULES one is called an Honor dog, and one is called the working dog!

The WORKING dog has to run a blind.

But they are both required to Honor! That Honor doesnt mean, you have run your test, your work is finished.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> You are incorrect!
> Per the RULES one is called an Honor dog, and one is called the working dog!
> 
> The WORKING dog has to run a blind.
> ...


Is the "honor" dog judged on the mark or anything related to the mark like delivery to hand, line to fall, etc?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> Is the "honor" dog judged on the mark or anything related to the mark like delivery to hand, line to fall, etc?


YES! its a Mark! he has standards he has to meet that shows he marked the bird. (go directly to the AOF and establish a hunt) In every level except STARTED he is required to deliver to hand!

So,, if you run a venue where the dog MAY be required by rule to be part of the working dogs test,, are you going to go into that test environment with the attitude that when my dog is honoring, its job is done, and it can lay down as long as it can see?
Are you gonna have that same attitude when you Hunt?

I aint! 

Gooser

P. S. 
and remember, in that example I gave, the honor dog goes and picks up that Working dogs go bird (because the Honor handler shot it) but then comes back, sits down, and still has to "HONOR"one of the Working dogs retrieves.

The participation of the handlers and the dogs at the line replicate a true hunting situation!

JMHO


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Mike Berube said:


> What is the difference between "watching each mark", and "clearly seeing all marks"?


 Nothing. But that's not the language. All it says is that the honor dog must be in a position where pup is able to see the marks. How do you instruct the honor handler when you are judging?


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> Not ALLLLLL rules say that!!! The discussion was about the Honor at A hunt test! WHOs HUNT TEST!!!


The discussion was started by the OP referring to a Senior (aka AKC) HT. 'Course there's nothing in the rules at RTF that requires a thread to stay on topic.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> The discussion was started by the OP referring to a Senior (aka AKC) HT. 'Course there's nothing in the rules at RTF that requires a thread to stay on topic.



But the thread title was Honor at a Hunt test! 

I said earlier that i understood the OP was talking about AKC,,, But there are different venues that I am now truly convinced are a good thing, and I think people become so set in their ways that they begin to believe there are not different ways to look at things.

Its very common here for people to quote rule books in GENERAL conversations about tests and trials. 
I have seen FT rule book quoted when the discussion was about AKC hunt test! 

I still ask you "What is an Honor dogs job"? 

I think because of the discussion it has showed 2 different opinions

1. Your dogs job is done when it is on the Honor.
2. Your dog MIGHT be required to work when it is on the honor.

The discussion was about the dog laying down, and what dog is trained to a higher level! 

My point was, in some circumstances, or venues, whether it be a HUNT TEST, or actual Hunting , it depends! But,, for ME personally, I believe a dog should be sitting up, attentive, ready to work, and only go if sent!

JMHO.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

MooseGooser said:


> YES! its a Mark! he has standards he has to meet that shows he marked the bird. (go directly to the AOF and establish a hunt) In every level except STARTED he is required to deliver to hand!
> 
> So,, if you run a venue where the dog MAY be required by rule to be part of the working dogs test,, are you going to go into that test environment with the attitude that when my dog is honoring, its job is done, and it can lay down as long as it can see?
> Are you gonna have that same attitude when you Hunt?
> ...


So if the dog is being judged on "work" being performed, how is it an honor dog? Its just another working dog that is under judgement.

I like the test btw and I would play that game, sounds fun. And no if those were the rules of the venue those are the rules I would play. However, it is really an irrelevant discussion when talking about a true "honor" dog.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

captainjack said:


> You are making my point. Two dogs are hunting. Whichever Hunter downs the bird sends their dog. Both dogs should be up and ready to retrieve, or both should be down in a mut hut or whatever and be ready to retrieve. Dogs put in the down position because they know they aren't going to retrieve are not "playing the game". If the dogs were steady, there would be no need to put in the down position so they know they aren't going to retrieve.


But this isnt hunting were talking about. Whens the last time youve seen the honor dog sent to retrieve, at a test? I NEVER have and its been only 25 years in the game,for me..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

IowaBayDog said:


> *So if the dog is being judged on "work" being performed, how is it an honor dog?* Its just another working dog that is under judgement.
> 
> I like the test btw and I would play that game, sounds fun. And no if those were the rules of the venue those are the rules I would play. However, it is really an irrelevant discussion when talking about a true "honor" dog.


Because,,, after he has picked up the working dogs Go bird,, he has to come back, deliver to hand,, sit down,, and Honor the working dogs Double before he is excused!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Think about the working dog though!
He comes out ,goes to the line, his handler starts the test by calling, three birds get tossed, he watches them all,but when he is thinking he is gonna goget that last bird down, the Other dog goes to get it! he has to sit and watch that happen (Honor) then pick up the remaining two birds! It fun to watch how many dogs are not convinced that go bird was picked up by another dog, even though they watched it happen! Some dogs cave, and still go for that go bird! 

Even after the working dog picks up those remaining 2 marks, he ( working dog) is then required to run a blind very close and past the AOF of that go bird!

I dont remember it being particularly fun to run,,,but I do remember it! 


I dont think Flinch would like it one damn bit! HAHAHA!!!


Gooser


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I just bet the guys that want to have their dog "down" on the honor,, would act differently when they were hunting with a buddy and his dog. In THAT case, I just bet his dog will be up,or if in a Hut,,Very attentive, watching for birds to fall while the hunters are working birds..
> 
> Even if in a hut, I bet the dog is up, excited, and watching to see if he gets to retrieve.
> 
> Gooser


The hole in your theory is the huge difference between real hunting and testing hunting capabilities. Going with your theory a dog could run the bank and retrieve a bird without ever getting in the water and still pass. Give that a try and let me know what the ribbon looks like......


/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> And I do understand that the OP was about an AKC test,...
> 
> The world doesnt revolve around that AKC rule book!
> 
> ...


If hunting and my dog is down and i need him to get a bird, I run it like a blind. 

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> YES! its a Mark! he has standards he has to meet that shows he marked the bird. (go directly to the AOF and establish a hunt) In every level except STARTED he is required to deliver to hand!
> 
> So,, if you run a venue where the dog MAY be required by rule to be part of the working dogs test,, are you going to go into that test environment with the attitude that when my dog is honoring, its job is done, and it can lay down as long as it can see?
> Are you gonna have that same attitude when you Hunt?
> ...


I think the problem is we are giving dogs designations such as working dog and honor dog. In your scenario I would label them by the role they play, in this case both dogs are working dogs. 

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Billie said:


> But this isnt hunting were talking about. Whens the last time youve seen the honor dog sent to retrieve, at a test? I NEVER have and its been only 25 years in the game,for me..


Last time I saw it was 2001, AKC Master Bob Peppers farm, Tom Quarles was judging and I forget the co-judge. 

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Because,,, after he has picked up the working dogs Go bird,, he has to come back, deliver to hand,, sit down,, and Honor the working dogs Double before he is excused!


Technically according to the scenario it was never the "working dogs" bird but rather the "honor dogs bird" therefore not making it the "working dogs" birds but rather the "honor dogs" bird thus making the "honor dog" the "working dog" and the "working dog" the "honor dog"

I hope that clarifies it.....

/Paul


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## Mike Berube (Feb 8, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> Nothing. But that's not the language. All it says is that the honor dog must be in a position where pup is able to see the marks. How do you instruct the honor handler when you are judging?


Why would the honor handler need instructions? The honor dog takes up a position as defined by the judges. What instructions are necessary? You are judging the dog not the handler. Stop skirting my question in post #92. If the honor dog does NOT watch/see any of the working dogs marks go down, irregardless of the dogs position (sit/down/standing on its hind legs), does that constitute a pass/fail, or re-run in your book?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Good Dogs said:


> Nothing. But that's not the language. All it says is that the honor dog must be in a position where pup is able to see the marks. How do you instruct the honor handler when you are judging?


Technically it says.....


> The specific positions (sitting, lying down, etc.) of the honoring dog will be determined by the handler provided the honoring dog is positioned to clearly see all the marks *without having to reposition itself.*


Which does add some weight to some of the "you can't lay down" on the honor discussion....

/Paul


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Gooser your making this WAY more complicated than it needs to be, this isn't hunting it's simply a game we play with the dogs during the off season to mimic a hunting situation, that helps us evaluate our dogs training and ability. Judges are there to test marking and handling and at some levels the dog has to HONOR another dogs work. I hope you realise the more crap and scenarios you put into a test for the dog and handlers, the better chance something is going to wrong and we have a no bird or many of them, wasted time for no good reason. If you want your dog to have a REAL hunting experience than take him, but don't try to reinvent the wheel on the weekend, keep it simple but hard..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I think the problem is we are giving dogs designations such as working dog and honor dog. In your scenario I would label them by the role they play, in this case both dogs are working dogs.
> 
> /Paul


Ok! I'll give you that, but however you name the dog, both dogs had to perform the act of Honoring, and be up , attentive, while honoring another dogs work, and the retrieve when sent! I personally would not want my dog in the habit of laying down at the line , ever, because he may be called on to work!

As far as Todds comments go, I am not making anything harder than it has to be, I just explained a real Hunt Test scenario that I have run, where the two working dogs had to Honor twice, and be up and watching so they could Mark falls that judges required them to retrieve! 

Hows that!


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Mike
Do you mean the dog is in a position ( sitting, standing or laying down) that they can see the marks, but doesn't look at them for some reason?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thomas
i don't understand your question.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

MG:

I get what you're saying about "real" hunting (i.e., the putatively non-working dog should be ready to retrieve if sent) but please elaborate on how this would be tested. In real hunting, it's random. The hunters don't know when a bird will be shot that the first dog (maybe in the water on his way to another bird) cannot see. But when testing this concept, the handlers KNOW the scenario. It's either a marking test, or an honor. (Or I guess it could be both, but sequentially...) But handlers will cue and/or set up the dog accordingly. 

Help me understand how this would work in practical (HT) terms. And use small words because I'm not a hunter.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Thomas
> i don't understand your question.


Mike Berube


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

1tulip said:


> MG:
> 
> I get what you're saying about "real" hunting (i.e., the putatively non-working dog should be ready to retrieve if sent) but please elaborate on how this would be tested. In real hunting, it's random. The hunters don't know when a bird will be shot that the first dog (maybe in the water on his way to another bird) cannot see. But when testing this concept, the handlers KNOW the scenario. It's either a marking test, or an honor. (Or I guess it could be both, but sequentially...) But handlers will cue and/or set up the dog accordingly.
> 
> Help me understand how this would work in practical (HT) terms. And use small words because I'm not a hunter.


Exactly how my real hunt test scenario described it! Post #73


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

OK. Sit. Stay. Mark. 

Don't down your dog.

I have two dogs, polar opposites. The dog I ran (in the original post) is super compliant... whatever-you-want-boss kind of dog. Then I have Ram-Jet-Rocket-Dog. She's in very formative field work right now, but will likely always be a thrill-a-minute and threat-to-go forever. (Or a very long time which ever comes first.)

JMO... but Rocket-dog's ability to honor would be thoroughly tested in a good Master set up, always. I'm not sure the additional complexity you describe would provide additional information about her steadiness. I'm not sure what extra elements we'd add or change in our training routine.

Having said that... I like the test you describe.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

1tulip said:


> OK. Sit. Stay. Mark.
> 
> Don't down your dog.
> 
> ...




I believe you got the concept. 
But in the real world of hunting, you have no idea unless you experience it yourself.
Doesn't seem like that is going to happen anytime soon. 
Edit: You are not a hunter. How in the hell can I explain a hunter to....








Edit again: you want reference...read up on Aldo Leopold...that should be a good start for you.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Some venues, the Honor is about steadiness! or your sit standard! That's it!

Other venues, the Honor dog (that IS what they call them) is more involved in the test. 

Ya run with what works for you! If ya run both,, ya kinda gotta be prepared!

I like both! and after really trying to understand them, I am very grateful that there are choices and differences we have to enjoy dogs!

There are different rule books, and different standards. Different ideologies! I like that! I dont want to see that change..


JMHO

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think a HRCH, MH, QAA dog is a VERY special animal!!

And that 12 yr old dog that we have spent many seasons with in the field, and had a Junior title that we worked pretty hard to get,but has now passed on,,,, is irreplaceable


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> Some venues, the Honor is about steadiness! or your sit standard! That's it!
> 
> Other venues, the Honor dog (that IS what they call them) is more involved in the test.
> 
> ...


And it shouldn't.... 
I hope that is why folks come back and enjoy in what makes sense to them.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> I think a HRCH, MH, QAA dog is a VERY special animal!!
> 
> And that 12 yr old dog that we have spent many seasons with in the field, and had a Junior title that we worked pretty hard to get,but has now passed on,,,, is irreplaceable


That is only a hunter can understand and can relate. 

Not know one else.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Mike Berube said:


> What is the difference between "watching each mark", and "clearly seeing all marks"?


I read the rule as the dog having ability to see, not necessarily "seeing". That, to me would mean that if you put the dog in a down and cover prevented his seeing the marks, then you're either out (or a nice judge will tell you to change positions). If you put him where he CAN see but he's not looking, well, that's great for you!


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> Some venues, the Honor is about steadiness! or your sit standard! That's it!
> 
> Other venues, the Honor dog (that IS what they call them) is more involved in the test.
> 
> ...


If both sorts of venues were available in our area, I'd probably try both. Only problem would be all the people in the gallery wetting themselves listening to me try to blow a duck call.

PS: My grand-daughter got first place in a junior duck calling contest when she was about 6. Even she rolls her eyes at Grammy's attempts.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I alway honor from a sitting position, but after a year or two they totally get the fact it's the other dogs turn and couldn't be less interested. I have a hard time getting them to even face the test, they just want to go back to the truck. Sometimes they lie down, mostly this sit and face the test then calmly walk with me off line. Most judges don't want a dog to break off the honor, but they will not abide a handler blocking his dog's view of the test. IMO, honoring from the down position is not blocking the dog's view.


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## Tom Lehr (Sep 11, 2008)

Mike Berube said:


> Master Test
> 
> 1. Dog gets up and wanders around.
> 2. Dog rolls on back scratching itself.
> ...


 Just curious Mike how you would judge it- for me as long as the dog hasn't moved from it's position, I would pass it assuming there was no other interference. 

When I'm watching the honor dog, I'm also peaking at the working dog and the birds going down. This does not give me time to see whether the honoring dog is watching the birds fall.


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