# Back Bay Knotts Island Retriever Club (VA)



## John Shoffner

Where are all the Derby dogs at? Just checked EE and noted 4 are entered so far. There have to be 6 more derby dogs ready to run on Sturday the 18th in Goldvein, VA! Hopefully 6 more will enter before entries close this Thursday night.


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## CountryBumpkin

Well since they just slipped in the entry on EE last week and the entries close on the 9th, sounds to me like another homer job again by this club and its members. I have noticed that Back Bay has a tendency of posting their past hunt tests with only a week left to enter and now this first field trial they have held in years to the last moment. Makes a person wonder!
CB


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## Scott Bass

CountryBumpkin said:


> Well since they just slipped in the entry on EE last week and the entries close on the 9th, sounds to me like another homer job again by this club and its members. I have noticed that Back Bay has a tendency of posting their past hunt tests with only a week left to enter and now this first field trial they have held in years to the last moment. Makes a person wonder!
> CB


CB,
Your incorrect!  It has been on EE since at least the middle of April.


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## DoubleHaul

Huh. I thought BBKI was defunct.


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## CountryBumpkin

Scott Bass said:


> CB,
> Your incorrect! It has been on EE since at least the middle of April.


Must have slipped by me as I have been looking for a qual/derby to run in the area for awhile and I just noticed the Back Bay event posted on EE around the third week in May. For some reason Back Bay's tests seem to all of a sudden pop up as I had the same issue when they were using the Retriever Entry for their hunt test entries and the entries would be open at the last minute.
CB


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## John Shoffner

Hi CB, 

Good thing we have Retriever Training Forum to get the word out that there is another derby on June 18 in th southeast! Hopefully you will enter this one since you have been looking for one and help make sure there are 10 dogs so it will be a go. Hope to see you there. 

I am not a member of the club and not able to comment on when it was posted on EE. I would like to run my dog in it that weekend and like that it is not too far from home. 

John


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## Scott Bass

John,
I will be entering the Derby. Why don't you get Mike O. to come up with his traveling Derby?


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## John Shoffner

Hi Scott,

Looking forward to seeing you there. Your dog looked great at Tidewater. As far as I know, I don't think Mike is planning on running this one. There must be5 more derby dogs around that can be rounded up to make this one a go.

John


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## hunt4food

I can assure you during the eleventh hour there will be 10 entries.


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## Scott Bass

hunt4food said:


> I can assure you during the eleventh hour there will be 10 entries.


Hunt4food,
Do you have 5 derby dogs?


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## Scott Bass

John,

It looks like we will not be running in the Derby next weekend. Put the double D/Qs that Tidewater and Blue Ridge is putting on in Aug on your calendar. Those will be closer to you and Bill will not age out before then. Hope to see you there.

Hunt4food, 
What happened? We were all counting on you.


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## hunt4food

No Scott I don't but if I did i would'nt give my money to Back Bay. I prefer a level playing field. Surprised Mclaren didnt enter some of his champions! I've got five bucks I can give you a dog that places that weekend.


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## Scott Bass

Hunt4food,

You've had some bad experience?


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## CountryBumpkin

Scott Bass said:


> Hunt4food,
> 
> You've had some bad experience?


Scott:
There have beeen so many people screwed over by this group of people it leaves the head spinning. Just look at the history of their AKC tests and their judges. Can someone say "Hand Picked". Earn it is all we say. They have already watered down the MH title, don't let them do that in the FTgame!
CB


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## captainjack

CountryBumpkin said:


> Scott:
> There have beeen so many people screwed over by this group of people it leaves the head spinning. Just look at the history of their AKC tests and their judges. Can someone say "Hand Picked". Earn it is all we say. They have already watered down the MH title, don't let them do that in the FTgame!
> CB


Got some news on the setups.

1st Series was a single flyer at 150 yards across water.
2nd series was a land double.
3rd series was a land blind.
4th series was another land blind.
I understand they were planning 6 series.
Many dogs with handles on the 1st and/or 2nd series were called back to the 3rd (maybe only 2 scratches and 1 pickup not back to the 3rd)

Not passing judgement but this is quiet unusual is it not?


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## CountryBumpkin

captainjack said:


> Got some news on the setups.
> 
> 1st Series was a single flyer at 150 yards across water.
> 2nd series was a land double.
> 3rd series was a land blind.
> 4th series was another land blind.
> I understand they were planning 6 series.
> Many dogs with handles on the 1st and/or 2nd series were called back to the 3rd (maybe only 2 scratches and 1 pickup not back to the 3rd)
> 
> Not passing judgement but this is quiet unusual is it not?


Is this unusual -- well no not for this group. If this is actually the truth, then it just reaffirms how they water down things so their dogs can get titled or put a QAA on them. A single flyer for a series -- are you kidding me!!! Again what a joke from a group of jokes!!! I would hope that if this is true as described someone in the AKC would be at their next hunt test or "so-called field trial"! 75 to 90% of all the quals I have ever seen consist of a triple land with a retired gun, land blind, water blind, and triple water marks period!
CB


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## Zman1001

CountryBumpkin said:


> Is this unusual -- well no not for this group. If this is actually the truth, then it just reaffirms how they water down things so their dogs can get titled or put a QAA on them. A single flyer for a series -- are you kidding me!!! Again what a joke from a group of jokes!!! I would hope that if this is true as described someone in the AKC would be at their next hunt test or "so-called field trial"! 75 to 90% of all the quals I have ever seen consist of a triple land with a retired gun, land blind, water blind, and triple water marks period!
> CB


I guess this one would fall in that 10-25%.


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## CountryBumpkin

Zman1001 said:


> I guess this one would fall in that 10-25%.


What it falls into is a joke of a Qual!


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## g_fiebelkorn

CountryBumpkin said:


> Must have slipped by me as I have been looking for a qual/derby to run in the area for awhile and I just noticed the Back Bay event posted on EE around the third week in May. For some reason Back Bay's tests seem to all of a sudden pop up as I had the same issue when they were using the Retriever Entry for their hunt test entries and the entries would be open at the last minute.
> CB


In addition to the Back Bay Knotts Island event being on Entry Express, on 30 May I posted in the Event Section of RTF the following”

“O/H Qual & Derby, 17-19 Jun - Goldvein, VA 
________________________________________
Back Bay Knotts Island RC is having an Owner Handler Qual and Derby on 17 – 19 June at Deep Run Farm, Goldvein, Va. Premium and entry information is available at www.entryexpress.net

Entries close 9 June.”

I have found that if you really want to keep current you need to check Entry Express and the Event section of RTF every day.
__________________
SouthFork Fly


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## Brian Cockfield

captainjack said:


> Got some news on the setups.
> 
> 1st Series was a single flyer at 150 yards across water.
> 2nd series was a land double.
> 3rd series was a land blind.
> 4th series was another land blind.
> I understand they were planning 6 series.
> Many dogs with handles on the 1st and/or 2nd series were called back to the 3rd (maybe only 2 scratches and 1 pickup not back to the 3rd)
> 
> Not passing judgement but this is quiet unusual is it not?


I hope this isn't true. Unbelievable.


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## Ragin Storm Retrievers

A single for a 1st series Q. SERIOUSLY?????? And then a double???????These are supposed to be dogs that are just about ready OR ready to move on to all-age. If this IS true about the set up then this is pathetic.


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## CountryBumpkin

g_fiebelkorn said:


> In addition to the Back Bay Knotts Island event being on Entry Express, on 30 May I posted in the Event Section of RTF the following”
> 
> “O/H Qual & Derby, 17-19 Jun - Goldvein, VA
> ________________________________________
> Back Bay Knotts Island RC is having an Owner Handler Qual and Derby on 17 – 19 June at Deep Run Farm, Goldvein, Va. Premium and entry information is available at www.entryexpress.net
> 
> Entries close 9 June.”
> 
> I have found that if you really want to keep current you need to check Entry Express and the Event section of RTF every day.
> __________________
> SouthFork Fly


From the descriptions of the series, you should have posted Back Bay Knotts Island RC is having a Junior, well I give it a Senior Test, excuse me Qual, on 17 June.
CB


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## j towne

I ran today and had a blast. It was enough factors for the judges to get the answers and do able for the rest of the dogs to keep playing. 
I ran 2 dogs and got to the line 10 times today. I learned a lot and calmed down as the day went on. I am not a field trial person but someday hope to be able to play the game. Trials like this might help get new blood into the trials. Isn't that the purpose of a OH Q? 
The judges, grounds, and club were all great and I would love to run it again next year.
Everything ran very smooth and the club had free drinks and snack for the handlers.
Thanks again to everyone at BBKI RC

CB sounds like you have another hidden agenda with this club.


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## CountryBumpkin

The purpose of a Qualifying Stake be it O/H or not is to have a dog that is Qualified to run in All Age Stakes period. Sorry but a single 150 yard mark series is not QAA material in my book no matter what the factors might be. There is no hidden agenda here with me - I have a serious problem with a dog getting QAA from this set of series!! Earn it. As stated before, they have watered down the MH title in this area and I don't intend to sit by and watch them do the same with the field trials!
CB


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## j towne

You have been bashing the club from the start. Maybe you should have entered to show to rest of us what a real qaa dog should look like. So you don't intend to sit around and watch them "water down" trials what do you intend to do about it? Sit at home and bitch about it on the I Internet? Yea I am sure that will get a lot done. Also you have 12 post all 12 are about this same club. Sure no hidden agenda at all. Sounds like somebody took their ball and ran home. 

Also according to akc QAA is not even a title so who cares. 

The 2 dogs I think will get 1st and 2nd. The one dog has placed 3rd before and the other dog has placed 3rd and 4th And won a derbie.


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## Clay Rogers

The purpose of the qualifying in my opinion is to help prepare your dog for AA stakes and if you become QAA, you are allowed to run certain events(limited, specials). Also in my opinion, this test sounds way too easy to be called a qualifying(and I have no secondary objective). A single flyer at 150 yards for the first series is terrible, and if they got anything out of that, then the dog work must have been horrible.(again, my opinion). That shouldn't even trip up a well trained junior dog. I have run much harder Master stakes than what this test sounds like from poster's description.


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## g_fiebelkorn

CountryBumpkin said:


> From the descriptions of the series, you should have posted Back Bay Knotts Island RC is having a Junior, well I give it a Senior Test, excuse me Qual, on 17 June.
> CB


The descriptions given in the earlier post are extremely simplistic and do not give sufficient detail to form a mental picture of what the tests actually looked like. 

For the record, previously I had run a Qual where a series consisted of a single followed by a blind. That Qual was put on by one of the oldest and most respected Retriever Clubs in the GA/FL area. Both judges in that Qual were 8 point Championship judges -- one had judged the Canadian National Amateur. Both the single and the blind in the GA/FL Qual were much easier than the ones yesterday.


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## Brian Cockfield

CountryBumpkin said:


> The purpose of a Qualifying Stake be it O/H or not is to have a dog that is Qualified to run in All Age Stakes period. Sorry but a single 150 yard mark series is not QAA material in my book no matter what the factors might be. There is no hidden agenda here with me - I have a serious problem with a dog getting QAA from this set of series!! Earn it. As stated before, they have watered down the MH title in this area and I don't intend to sit by and watch them do the same with the field trials!
> CB


I know absolutely nothing about this club but I agree with what is said here. The description of this test is completely ridiculous for a Qualifying, Owner/Handler or not!


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## CountryBumpkin

j towne said:


> You have been bashing the club from the start. Maybe you should have entered to show to rest of us what a real qaa dog should look like. So you don't intend to sit around and watch them "water down" trials what do you intend to do about it? Sit at home and bitch about it on the I Internet? Yea I am sure that will get a lot done. Also you have 12 post all 12 are about this same club. Sure no hidden agenda at all. Sounds like somebody took their ball and ran home.
> 
> Also according to akc QAA is not even a title so who cares.
> 
> The 2 dogs I think will get 1st and 2nd. The one dog has placed 3rd before and the other dog has placed 3rd and 4th And won a derbie.


I have been running AKC Master tests along the east coast for the past few years and yes I have had some issues with some club members b/c of decisions and the tests. One reason I started to jump into the FT game two years ago was because I liked the difficulty of them. And yes, I can probably attest that there are singles out there that could be difficult. I know that in the past couple of years I have seen and participated in AKC Master tests run by BBKI that were imho "dumbed down" so club members dogs would pass and in turn earn their MHs. My hope is that the same does not occur in the FT game as well. As far as not running at this event, I decided earlier this year not donate money to BBKI. Although I find it kind of funny that I posted over a week ago about the watering down MH tests and now with the series described, I can see a parallel here. I have said my peace and will wait and run later in the year to support the Retriever Event.
CB


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## j towne

CountryBumpkin said:


> I have been running AKC Master tests along the east coast for the past few years and yes I have had some issues with some club members b/c of decisions and the tests. One reason I started to jump into the FT game two years ago was because I liked the difficulty of them. And yes, I can probably attest that there are singles out there that could be difficult. I know that in the past couple of years I have seen and participated in AKC Master tests run by BBKI that were imho "dumbed down" so club members dogs would pass and in turn earn their MHs. My hope is that the same does not occur in the FT game as well. As far as not running at this event, I decided earlier this year not donate money to BBKI. Although I find it kind of funny that I posted over a week ago about the watering down MH tests and now with the series described, I can see a parallel here. I have said my peace and will wait and run later in the year to support the Retriever Event.
> CB


Now 13 post about bbki. I doubt you have ran anything and doubt you have done anything in anything in trials anyway.


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## Sabireley

What were the placements?


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## Ragin Storm Retrievers

I have no dog in this fight and have nothing bad to say about BBRC. I don't know anything about the club nor it's members. I have run quite a few Q's and judged also. I cannot think of a single instance of why anyone would set up a single for a 1st series followed up by a double. And count 6 series? Really? Whatever, but I can fully understand CB's rants if their HT's are similar setups. Sounds like he might have hit the nail on the head before the description of the setups were given.


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## j towne

Honestly it doesn't matter if they had quads every series or singles every series at the end of the trial 2 dogs will be QAA. The judges can only place the dogs entered and place the dogs enter. The trial was listed on EE and open to everyone.


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## Tim Carrion

j towne said:


> The judges can only place the dogs entered and place the dogs enter.


Probably the accurate statement. I've run under, against and judged both of these judges and they know what a Qualifying is. 
The rules are clear, whatever the talent of the dogs entered if a FT stake is held a winner must be declared. The talent of the entry determines the difficulty of test not a prescribed standard.
The Q probably has the widest possible range of talent of any stake. Every dog could already be a QAA or every dog may have barely SH skills (which makes it a tougher job for judges) but they still need to find the best dog(s).

Tim


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## delawarebluehen

I think a few people have forgot the sole purpose of field trails. TO IMPROVE THE BREED OF THE RETRIEVER. Owner handler Qualifying do not improve the breed they only take competition away. The only reason why this club would want to have this event is so they can shy away from running against better dogs. I don't have a problem with the test because they had only a few entries and all day to run the event. The problem that I have is that if the winning dog is breed and promoted as QAA that it competed against lesser competition. What dog would you prefer a QAA dog that won a 30 dog event with top pros or a dog that beat 10 dogs and no top pros? I think we all would prefer the first.


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## captainjack

Tim Carrion said:


> Probably the accurate statement. I've run under, against and judged both of these judges and they know what a Qualifying is.
> *The rules are clear, whatever the talent of the dogs entered if a FT stake is held a winner must be declared. The talent of the entry determines the difficulty of test not a prescribed standard.*The Q probably has the widest possible range of talent of any stake. Every dog could already be a QAA or every dog may have barely SH skills (which makes it a tougher job for judges) but they still need to find the best dog(s).
> 
> Tim


Tim,

Please quote the section of the rule book that says the talent of the entry determines the difficulty of the test.

Also please quote the section in the rule book that says a winner must be declared. 

There should be no dog that is running at a SH level that is QAA.


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## delawarebluehen

The belief that OHQ are bringing new blood into field trails is only a belief. Most of these people will run these events and after words continue to run hunt test. There is nothing wrong with that but AKC needs to look at the numbers and understand that OHQ and OHD are not helping the field trial game. The field trail game does not need help. There have been events going on for over 50 years and people still show up every weekend to run there dogs or watch there pros run there dogs. If someone wants to compete at the highest level they will but OHQ and OHD are not what the sport needs to promote. So to use the excuse of "bring new blood" into the field trails by having Owner handler events is just a way to justify avoiding competition.


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## delawarebluehen

does anyone have the results ?


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## g_fiebelkorn

delawarebluehen said:


> does anyone have the results ?


11 dogs back to the last series which was run this morning. It was a full blown water triple with a flyer, cheating opportunities, and multiple re-entries with an honor. 

I understand only about 6 or 7 finished the last series -- one dog broke on the honor.

The only results I know or are:

First-- Jack J with Rocky
Second-- Dick Cook

Sorry, don't have the others.


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## g_fiebelkorn

g_fiebelkorn said:


> 11 dogs back to the last series which was run this morning. It was a full blown water triple with a flyer, cheating opportunities, and multiple re-entries with an honor.
> 
> I understand only about 6 or 7 finished the last series -- one dog broke on the honor.
> 
> The only results I know or are:
> 
> First-- Jack J with Rocky
> Second-- Dick Cook
> 
> Sorry, don't have the others.


Oh, I forgot. The last series on Friday afternoon was a water blind -- about 200 yards. Get on the point, get off the point. I have seen and run easier Amateur water blinds. Only 11 call backs.


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## j towne

Those were the 2 dogs I thought were going to get 1 and 2. 

That water blind had to be over 200. It was about 100 to the water and almost 100 to the point.

Congrats to Jack and Dick.


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## delawarebluehen

On his own grounds, with his own judges, at his own event a "pro" wins a owner handler Q. That's how you get "new blood" into the sport.


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## hunt4food

delawarebluehen said:


> On his own grounds, with his own judges, at his own event a "pro" wins a owner handler Q. That's how you get "new blood" into the sport.


Amen!! Scott it looks like you saved yourself five bucks. Take a little time researching some of the club members dogs passes and the judges. This crew has been doing this for years.


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## hollypoint

I watched this event on Friday and saw three of the series. I am not a member of BBKI, no dog in, just in the neigborhood with time to watch.

There was a lot of comment in the gallery about the fact that it was great that there was such a small number of dogs and the judges had the luxury of allowing people to continue because of that. The judges could have easily cut the field in half with that first single and many folks commented that if this was a large entry they would be one and done. Another 50 % could have been cut on the 2nd series and again on the third. I suspect the judges had it down to the top 4 dogs then, and on the last series decided to see the order. Seems to me the implication that this was rigged is an insult to these judges, who were from out of town and not connected to BBKI that I could see, and there was a lot going on in each of these series- I was impressed anyway. 

Oh, and from the three I saw, Rocky nailed them.


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## j towne

hollypoint said:


> I watched this event on Friday and saw three of the series. I am not a member of BBKI, no dog in, just in the neigborhood with time to watch.
> 
> There was a lot of comment in the gallery about the fact that it was great that there was such a small number of dogs and the judges had the luxury of allowing people to continue because of that. The judges could have easily cut the field in half with that first single and many folks commented that if this was a large entry they would be one and done. Another 50 % could have been cut on the 2nd series and again on the third. I suspect the judges had it down to the top 4 dogs then, and on the last series decided to see the order. Seems to me the implication that this was rigged is an insult to these judges, who were from out of town and not connected to BBKI that I could see, and there was a lot going on in each of these series- I was impressed anyway.
> 
> Oh, and from the three I saw, Rocky nailed them.


That pretty much summs it up perfect. I was not there for the last series but I knew the top 2 were lucky and rocky and I was correct on the next 3. I have seen Rocky run in qs before and he looked good then.


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## emf111

Congrats. Doug Z. & Mike Mac. on your jams! Well deserved!


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## David Witt

I'd like to second what emf111 said - Congratulations to Doug Z and Mike Mac!


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## Mike McDaniel

Thanks David and EMF. 

I want to let everyone know that BLUE RIDGE RETRIEVER CLUB and TIDEWATER RETRIEVER CLUB will be holding a DOUBLE DERBY / DOUBLE QUALIFIER on August 18,19,20th. We will be holding the event on the Powhatan Correction center grounds just west of Richmond. The event will serve as a fundraiser for the VIRGINIA RETRIEVER BENEFIT. The Judges for Tidewater are David Barrow and Pat Shelmadine. Blue Ridge Judges are Bruce Brown and Ed Gipson. 
I hope to see EVERYONE there!

Mike McDaniel


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## David Barrow

Sounds like it was fun, Congratulations, Mike and Doug!


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## Scott Bass

First of all congratulations to everyone on their placements!

I do have some questions for all of the experts. Since i'm new to the whole scene and have only run a few HT and not that many more trials. I have never seen or heard of a o/h Derby, can someone shed some light on this subject? It is hard enough to find enough derby dogs period.

I am always willing to learn and since Country Bumpkin and hunt4food aren't that far from me if you would let all of us know who you are we would love to train with you.

Let us know.


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