# 3 jr ht fails in a row ??????



## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

my 1 year old blf is in training at a pros and he's been handeling her in ht's in the jr I've missed all of the due to work . She has ran three test and failed all three the first one she blew it on the flyer and the second she cheated the water and the third she flat refused to go into the water . The trainer and I are confused cause she dose fine in traing and chokes at tests . Should I keep entering her in tetss and hopefuly she come around or should I have her take a break and focus on training or should we give up on ht's completly and focus on gun dog work(but if she can't pass a simple jr test which is basic gun dog tasks then will she even make it as a gun dog) . I've been spending alot of money on her traing and having her handeld in hts the traiiner wants to keep going and thinks shel come around but says it's my choice . I don't know what to do . Any thought or ideas ? Thanks


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> my 1 year old blf is in training at a pros and he's been handeling her in ht's in the jr I've missed all of the due to work . She has ran three test and failed all three the first one she blew it on the flyer and the second she cheated the water and the third she flat refused to go into the water . The trainer and I are confused cause she dose fine in traing and chokes at tests . Should I keep entering her in tetss and hopefuly she come around or should I have her take a break and focus on training or should we give up on ht's completly and focus on gun dog work(but if she can't pass a simple jr test which is basic gun dog tasks then will she even make it as a gun dog) . I've been spending alot of money on her traing and having her handeld in hts the traiiner wants to keep going and thinks shel come around but says it's my choice . I don't know what to do . Any thought or ideas ? Thanks


Not to be flippant or anything... but I think I'd find a new trainer.


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## Jeannie Greenlee (Apr 15, 2009)

It sounds like she has a water problem. Why keep entering tests and setting her up to fail where there are no opportunites to correct the problem. I would not enter any tests until she has more training.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I think you realize there is a serious problem here. You are right, JH is very, very basic. A good pro would not take a dog that did not have the "stuff" to complete this first step. Either your "pro" is inexperienced and is struggling his way through this, or he is giving you the gears in hopes to keep his income stream. Honestly, I can not see any kinder way of viewing it.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> traiiner wants to keep going and thinks shel come around but says it's my choice . I don't know what to do . Any thought or ideas ? Thanks


Of course he does!!! Thats his pay check!!!!! 
1) I would be looking for a new trainer as well
2) I would stop going to HT until you can figure this out


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Maybe all the dog needs is a little maturity if it can do the work in training but not at a test. Tests are pretty exciting and that can be a very bad age especially if she may be ready to come into season or such. 

What are your goals w/ her? What else is the pro working on w/ the dog? Maybe he's putting too much pressure on her. If he's just doing JH stuff, then I'd say you have a problem.

Remember, your pro doesn't get paid to run tests if you dont agree to enter them. I'd pull the dog from tests and stick to training until she's a little more mature.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

I would have serious questions about the dog or the trainer ... maybe both.

JMO

JS


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> the trainer wants to keep going and thinks she'll come around but says it's my choice . I don't know what to do . Any thought or ideas ? Thanks


Nuts4ducks',..there's no miraculous, _magical_, phenomena that's going to transpire inside your dogs mind between now and the next test....(Like the trainer is relying on the _dog_ to "come around" or train itself in self employment or self directed learning..

:idea:

I'd find a new trainer..best regards..


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## CanAmMan (Sep 28, 2007)

My question is.... is this trainer running any other dogs in the tests??? and if so, how are they doing at the tests. 

Before trying to blame all on the trainer, lets find out some more info. If the trainer is passing other dogs and your dog is not maybe it could be more your dog than the trainer.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

JS said:


> I would have serious questions about the dog or the trainer ... maybe both.
> 
> JMO
> 
> JS


Agreed.

I would take a step back and look at both the dog and the trainer as objectively as possible. Some dogs just don't have it but apparently your girl does the work in training just fine...

Is the pro a proven hunt test pro? What percentage of other client dogs pass the different levels of hunt tests? (is this an isolated issue with your dog or a pattern?) The pro that I used for break out work, and continue to day train with once a month or so, would not suggest we keep entering a dog that failed 3 junior tests in a row. Yes, that's how they get paid but it also makes them look bad if their dogs don't look sharp and/or they are not passing a strong percentage of the dogs entered. Also, some dogs seem to do better with one pro over another for whatever reason.

Remember that your relationship with your pro is a business relationship first. He wouldn't keep training your dog if you didn't pay. Should you keep paying if you're not getting the results? And, since you're not getting the results, why not? Is it the dog, the pro or both? This is what you need to decide.

Good luck with your girl.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

CanAmMan said:


> My question is.... is this trainer running any other dogs in the tests??? and if so, how are they doing at the tests.
> 
> Before trying to blame all on the trainer, lets find out some more info. If the trainer is passing other dogs and your dog is not maybe it could be more your dog than the trainer.


Yeap, you're right Can Am'..
I would hope though, that if the trainer is successful with other dogs that he/she certainly could have identified with a pup that's not ready to test as of yet regardless of it's age, and could have applied the shortcomings of the very first test in training, whether it was distractions, O.B. or other...There's a little wad of entry fees $$ lost that could make good beer money..


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

I personally would not enter in any more tests until the fall. Although JH is a "basic test", it still can be very overwhelming for a young dog. Your pup is only 12 months old, and this is very young, even for the JH test. 

I would take a step back, evaluate the dog and trainer, and then look towards slowing the temptation to enter the tests just because, but rather look to train to the next level. They always say you should train to the SH level before entering the JH test, and MH level before entering the SH tests. At 12 months old, it looks like your pup is not at the JH level yet. 

Good luck.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> my 1 year old blf is in training at a pros and he's been handeling her in ht's in the jr I've missed all of the due to work . She has ran three test and failed all three the first one she blew it on the flyer and the second she cheated the water and the third she flat refused to go into the water . The trainer and I are confused cause she dose fine in traing and chokes at tests . Should I keep entering her in tetss and hopefuly she come around or should I have her take a break and focus on training or should we give up on ht's completly and focus on gun dog work(but if she can't pass a simple jr test which is basic gun dog tasks then will she even make it as a gun dog) . I've been spending alot of money on her traing and having her handeld in hts the traiiner wants to keep going and thinks shel come around but says it's my choice . I don't know what to do . Any thought or ideas ? Thanks


Isn't this why you sent her to the trainer in the first place? I would be visiting the trainer every weekend to see what the problems are. 
Personally I'd be pulling my dog out of there and find another trainer.


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> my 1 year old blf is in training at a pros and he's been handeling her in ht's in the jr I've missed all of the due to work . She has ran three test and failed all three the first one she blew it on the flyer and the second she cheated the water and the third she flat refused to go into the water . The trainer and I are confused cause she dose fine in traing and chokes at tests . Should I keep entering her in tetss and hopefuly she come around or should I have her take a break and focus on training or should we give up on ht's completly and focus on gun dog work(but if she can't pass a simple jr test which is basic gun dog tasks then will she even make it as a gun dog) . I've been spending alot of money on her traing and having her handeld in hts the traiiner wants to keep going and thinks shel come around but says it's my choice . I don't know what to do . Any thought or ideas ? Thanks


When does cheating the water fail you on a JH test, not to mention having a JH test set up that a dog can cheat isn't a very good test in my opinion. 

Personally I would question the trainer here. If a dog is ready to run JH they really shouldn't not pass, I can see a random thing happening but 3 in a row tells me something is up.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

slightly off the topic, but I hate when a judge sets up JH test that will allow for a dog to cheat. I know sometimes there is no choice but to do so with the ground available. We are talking about a JH dog here, not a dog that has been decheated and is done with transitions. We are talking about wild maniac dogs that are probably not even steady for crying out loud.


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## riskyriver (Feb 23, 2010)

JMO but seems premature to write off the trainer (or the dog). Dogs can be strange sometimes and perform differently in training vs. events. Most common of course is the dog that is fairly manageable in training and blows up at an event and forgets half of what he knows and most of his manners.
But I have also seen a few that seem somewhat intimidated by events and act spooky and have a difficult time doing the work because of it. Have had a couple of these myself (both females), and they were NOT by nature shy spooky dogs, and mostly grew out of this eventually.
I don't think you will have a clear picture until you spend some time watching your dog in training, and then watching her run a JH. Until such time as you can do both, maybe a break from events is warranted for this dog, or perhaps see if the trainer would take her to a couple without running her, just for the exposure.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> my 1 year old blf is in training at a pros and he's been handeling her in ht's in the jr I've missed all of the due to work . She has ran three test and failed all three the first one she blew it on the flyer and the second she cheated the water and the third she flat refused to go into the water . The trainer and I are confused cause she dose fine in traing and chokes at tests . Should I keep entering her in tetss and hopefuly she come around or should I have her take a break and focus on training or should we give up on ht's completly and focus on gun dog work(but if she can't pass a simple jr test which is basic gun dog tasks then will she even make it as a gun dog) . I've been spending alot of money on her traing and having her handeld in hts the traiiner wants to keep going and thinks shel come around but says it's my choice . I don't know what to do . Any thought or ideas ? Thanks


Take out the my's and I's and I've and anything else referring to you. Replace them with a friends name, a really good friends name.

Then read your post and I think your problems will be clear and you will know what to do.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Take out the my's and I's and I've and anything else referring to you. Replace them with a friends name, a really good friends name.
> 
> Then read your post and I think your problems will be clear and you will know what to do.


thats actually quite good Tim...I like that....

But here is my solution..you need a fresh unbiased set of eyes to evaluate the dog...whether that is another trainer(not necessarily a pro) but someone with no emotional or financial investment in the dog..take a look at the dog..if its poorly trained a good trainer will expose that, if the dog lacks talent or maturity they might expose that too..you wont get the answer here on the RTF, it needs to be done live and in person..my $.02


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

IF the trainer is confused as you say it is time to look for another trainer. Maybe the dog has a water problem but if the trainer is saying he is confused about the problem then he does not know how to solve it.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> thats actually quite good Tim...I like that....
> 
> But here is my solution..you need a fresh unbiased set of eyes to evaluate the dog...whether that is another trainer(not necessarily a pro) but someone with no emotional or financial investment in the dog..take a look at the dog..if its poorly trained a good trainer will expose that, if the dog lacks talent or maturity they might expose that too..you wont get the answer here on the RTF, it needs to be done live and in person..my $.02


Perfect, that is the conclusion I was hoping the OP would come to.


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## MarkinMissouri (Aug 29, 2010)

Does AKC keep stats? What is the avg attempt per pass?


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I agree with Tim and BonMallari have another person check out the dog that has no personal interest in it and let them help you decide what is going on. 

Quick question though, the trainer said that the dog can perform just fine in training, but have you ever seen him work your dog at training? if you havent I would just go and watch for a day, the drills and set ups he has your dog doing.


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## kdeckels (Sep 12, 2009)

maxx said:


> When does cheating the water fail you on a JH test, not to mention having a JH test set up that a dog can cheat isn't a very good test in my opinion.


That was my question.


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## troy schwab (Mar 9, 2010)

This may sound stupid...... but I heard of a dog like this once. And this was the answer. The dog was great in training, but they didnt simulate the actual test. Come to find out, the full reports of a 12 gauge were confusing and startling the dog. All kinds of weird things would happen, water refusal, big cheats, etc. Turns out the dog wasnt trained with full blast reports, and it took a while to figure out. Just a thought..... thought I would share. I wouldnt be so quick to blame the trainer, if a dog does the work in practice, there MUST be another variable that hasnt been considered. Good luck!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

It's been a while since I've run AKC Jr tests. Do they shoot live flyers for JR tests? I was also wondering about cheating the water on JR tests as a reason for fail? I guess it depends on how bad.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

One thing, I do commend you for not making this personal and naming names. You have gotten several good answers to your post. Good luck.


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## cpj (Sep 28, 2009)

Can you/someone verify that he is actually going to the tests? Heard years ago about a pro who would enter tests/trials but no show even though he billed clients for entries and handling fees.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

troy schwab said:


> This may sound stupid...... but I heard of a dog like this once. And this was the answer. The dog was great in training, but they didnt simulate the actual test. Come to find out, the full reports of a 12 gauge were confusing and startling the dog. All kinds of weird things would happen, water refusal, big cheats, etc. Turns out the dog wasnt trained with full blast reports, and it took a while to figure out. Just a thought..... thought I would share. I wouldnt be so quick to blame the trainer, if a dog does the work in practice, there MUST be another variable that hasnt been considered. Good luck!


Could be a number of things like this. Are the training set-ups realistic? Is the dog challenged (at least to the junior level) in training? How much training grounds does the trainer use? Is the dog exposed to different water and land or is it all done in the same field? Are there lots of people and distractions so the dog has been exposed to this before he goes to a test? Decoys? Boats? Other dogs on tie-outs?

A good trainer will consider all these things and more. Can't do it all in the back yard.

JS

JS


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

MarkinMissouri said:


> Does AKC keep stats? What is the avg attempt per pass?


Maybe, but I've never seen any sort of official report. I often check out the results on entryexpress, just for kicks. I haven't put a pencil to it, but it seems like over 50% of all dogs pass the Jr tests (probably closer to 2 out of 3, but don't hold me to that). 

Re the OP...I'd stop testing and work on Sr level stuff. I'd also address the aversion to the water. 

0 for 3 is no good, but there are lots of MH dogs out there that haven't run the table at the lower stakes so don't get too discouraged.


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## maxx (Jan 1, 2005)

riskyriver said:


> JMO but seems premature to write off the trainer (or the dog). Dogs can be strange sometimes and perform differently in training vs. events. Most common of course is the dog that is fairly manageable in training and blows up at an event and forgets half of what he knows and most of his manners.
> But I have also seen a few that seem somewhat intimidated by events and act spooky and have a difficult time doing the work because of it. Have had a couple of these myself (both females), and they were NOT by nature shy spooky dogs, and mostly grew out of this eventually.
> I don't think you will have a clear picture until you spend some time watching your dog in training, and then watching her run a JH. Until such time as you can do both, maybe a break from events is warranted for this dog, or perhaps see if the trainer would take her to a couple without running her, just for the exposure.


If you are going to run tests isn't it our job as a trainer to try to create a test like envirnment during training to work through these type of issues? I am not saying you can clear everything up but it is JH we are talking about.


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

ok I need to clarify a little . On the cheating water it wasn't just cheating she whent back to the old mark and had to be called off and brought in . And the trainer is a well known ht and ft trainer he has produced several mh sr jh etc . And I have been to 4 group training days with him and local club members and she did fine but there was only land marks . I'm not planing switching pros.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> ok I need to clarify a little . On the cheating water it wasn't just cheating she whent back to the old mark and had to be called off and brought in . And the trainer is a well known ht and ft trainer he has produced several mh sr jh etc . And I have been to 4 group training days with him and local club members and she did fine but there was only land marks . I'm not planing switching pros.


So did she cheat (run around vs. swimming) or switch (leave one AOF after establishing a hunt and return to a previous AOF)? Two totally different things.

In that case, I would tell my pro to keep training for Senior and forget junior all together. It will give the dog more time to mature and for these issues to be dealt with.

Just my .02


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> ok I need to clarify a little . On the cheating water it wasn't just cheating she whent back to the old mark and had to be called off and brought in . And the trainer is a well known ht and ft trainer he has produced several mh sr jh etc . And I have been to 4 group training days with him and local club members and she did fine but there was only land marks . I'm not planing switching pros.


OK but a one yr old professionally trained dog should not fail that many test with the professional trainer scratching his or her head.

There, I did it I slapped you in the head.

Now I'm scratching my head regards,


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

duk4me said:


> OK but a one yr old professionally trained dog should not fail that many test with the professional trainer scratching his or her head.


Just for grins, take a look at the JH results at random HTs on EE. Very few pro handled dogs fail a typical junior test. I would say the pass rate is greater than 80% when a pro is handling. I don't know of any pro that would run one that wasn't more than ready, in fact. Things happen, since we are talking about dogs, but three in a row for a dog that is pro trained and handled?

It is up to you, of course, but I would not plan on running any more for a while. Something is definitely wrong and needs to be figured out.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

DoubleHaul said:


> Just for grins, take a look at the JH results at random HTs on EE. Very few pro handled dogs fail a typical junior test. I would say the pass rate is greater than 80% when a pro is handling. I don't know of any pro that would run one that wasn't more than ready, in fact. Things happen, since we are talking about dogs, but three in a row for a dog that is pro trained and handled?
> 
> It is up to you, of course, but I would not plan on running any more for a while. Something is definitely wrong and needs to be figured out.


O rly? lol I give you credit for the second slap upside the head. Something tells me more head slapping is on the way.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> ok I need to clarify a little . On the cheating water it wasn't just cheating she whent back to the old mark and had to be called off and brought in . And the trainer is a well known ht and ft trainer he has produced several mh sr jh etc . And I have been to 4 group training days with him and local club members and* she did fine but there was only land marks .* I'm not planing switching pros.


Not much of a training day that doesnt include some water work. The water is where the test or trial really starts. 
3 JR in a row, big problem.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

duk4me said:


> O rly? lol I give you credit for the second slap upside the head. Something tells me more head slapping is on the way.


No slapping, just scratching. I feel the OP's pain, because I am sure it is eating at him (or he probably wouldn't have come to the interwebs with the problem). I am pretty sure what I would do, but I would at least recommend not running any more.

I do like the suggestion to check to see if he actually showed up, though. Never heard that one before, but it could explain a lot.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> No slapping, just scratching. I feel the OP's pain, because I am sure it is eating at him (or he probably wouldn't have come to the interwebs with the problem). I am pretty sure what I would do, but I would at least recommend not running any more.
> 
> I do like the suggestion to check to see if he actually showed up, though. Never heard that one before, but it could explain a lot.


Then the results would say scratch not fail?


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

average percent of starters qualifying (1994-2003):

JH 66% (average of 6 attempts for title)
SH 51% (average of 8 attempts for JH titled dog, 10 for 
non-JH titled dog)
MH 46% (average of 11 attempts for SH titled dog, 
13 for non-SH titled dog)
Started 77% (average of 5 attempts for title)
Seasoned 59% (average of 5 attempts for Started titled dog,
7 for non-started titled dog)
Finished 54% (average of 11-18 attempts depending on 
previous titles)
Upland 68% (average of 6 attempts for title)

taken from "Retriever Hunt Tests", James B. Spencer. Not sure if more updated numbers are available anywhere.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Those percentages seem awful low for started. Most of the tests I've been to it is the rare dog that fails a started test. I have only seen one that failed when a pro was running him.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

MikeBoley said:


> Not much of a training day that doesnt include some water work. The water is where the test or trial really starts.
> 3 JR in a row, big problem.


This is a great point that I missed the first time through. How is it that you've been to 4 training days and _never_ seen water work? No wonder the dog had problems on the water at the tests if that is any indication.

OP, you need to be spending _much_ more time with your dog/pro to see what's going on.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

no clue, took those numbers directly from James Spencer's book.



waynenutt said:


> Those percentages seem awful low for started. Most of the tests I've been to it is the rare dog that fails a started test. I have only seen one that failed when a pro was running him.


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## BentleysMom (Nov 6, 2010)

More water work!! More Flyers!!

Have seen a lot of fails for JH dogs at the water. Refusal to get in the water, cheating etc... Maybe in spingtime your trainer had cool weather? Unable to do water work?? Was the water really cold for a young dog?? 

Was the AOF a flyer??? Seen many a dog go back for that fall! 

Train for senior was mentioned.  I agree. Talk in depth with your trainer. It seems everyone is always so quick to judge the trainer if the dog is not perfect. It is a dog afterall and they will frustrate you on any day!! 

Good luck to you!


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## southgeorgia (Jul 2, 2010)

You may have said and I missed it, but how long has the dog been with the trainer and what training did the dog have beforehand.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Personally, I would not run the dog in any test until she was capable of doing senior-finished level work. The dog shows it has issues and until you get that far along through transition you don't have the tools in the box to fix or stop a problem from developing. I hate to have clients that push me to test their dogs. I ran 27 started test last spring and failed 1 dog and it tore me up because it was my fault. We failed 2 seasoned test this fall and one finished. There is truly no excuse for a dog to fail 3 juniors in a row.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Maybe tell the "pro" what the folks on the internet are saying...


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

southgeorgia said:


> You may have said and I missed it, but how long has the dog been with the trainer and what training did the dog have beforehand.


since dec 15th and I'm the second owner the first owner said he had her out duck hunting a few times as far as training idk when I got she knew basic ob but when she wanted to I only had her a week before she went to trainin
g


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> And the trainer is a well known ht and ft trainer he has produced several mh sr jh etc .


*Several* MH,SH, JH doesn't mean a well known "PRO" in my book, does he train to a FT standard? What are his FT credentials? An average HT pro should be able to train a below average dog to the JH level, lets be realistic there singles. Most 12 monthe old potential derby dogs that are going through a solid FT program would have no problem with a JH, or SH test, even if there a below average marker. Not saying your dog is below average, just sayin.. And also why in the world would anyone pay someone good money to run there dog in a Junior HT, learn how to run the dog yourself at this level. And yes I would pull the dog, and have someone with more credentials than several MH,SH under his /her belt.... evaluate the dog..


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

how long has the dog been with the pro? one? two? three months? who wants the dog entered and was the decision for entering 100% mutual among you AND the pro? Has you as the owner put any restrictions on training methods? i.e. no e-collar? no-force fetch etc?


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

ok update we kept her out of tests for 2 weeks and our trainer said he focused on water marks she got her first ribin and pass today at the jayhawk ht in kingman ks finally a pass she is 4-1 now hopefully she keeps geting better


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

Congrats! Never rush a dog into the next level, and have a good idea of where you want the dog to be. My first dog may be the most talented dog i'll ever have, bought him as a gun dog and ended up piece mealing him into hunt test. Never did have my goals set properly for him. Had I known then ... I would have maybe sent him to a FT pro at 6 months (he is out of Harley's Wilderness to Go lines and has tons of tallent and even more drive). Much more dog than I needed for my first but wish I had it to do over again. Point being set you goal. If you have a good pro communicate what you want and enjoy him at whatever level. A good gun dog is as enjoyable as a good FC/AFC. A good FC/AFC thats a good gun dog is better than sliced bread.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> how long has the dog been with the pro? one? two? three months? who wants the dog entered and was the decision for entering 100% mutual among you AND the pro? Has you as the owner put any restrictions on training methods? i.e. no e-collar? no-force fetch etc?


still curious.....


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> ok update we kept her out of tests for 2 weeks and our trainer said he focused on water marks she got her first ribin and pass today at the jayhawk ht in kingman ks finally a pass she is 4-1 now hopefully she keeps geting better


 
WOO HOOO!
sometimes that very first ribbon is such a bitch!
Now, step back.. nose to grindstone and train train train.
Stop testing. You are very well on the way to a test wise dog.
And your droppin' loads of $$$$$$$$$$ on a JH ribbon. Use it 
to buy birds for your dog. Wait until your above JH in training 'fore
you test again. Best of luck friend.
Oh, and so sorry. After the first ribbon you ain't a turnin' back now.
Gosh you had a simple life before, your gonna look back at this line I just typed in 10 years and go "Ayup"!;-)


.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> And yes I would pull the dog, and have someone with more credentials than several MH,SH under his /her belt.... evaluate the dog..


What type of credentials would be required to evaluate a junior dog.

Thanks

Pete


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

congratulations. The bright side of all of this is that the title will mean more.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> since dec 15th and I'm the second owner the first owner said he had her out duck hunting a few times as far as training idk when I got she knew basic ob but when she wanted to I only had her a week before she went to trainin
> g


So the pro has had her about 6 months as of now. and she knew basic OB commands but wasn't done with basic OB and or collar conditioning. The pro ran her in the first three test after having the pup about 5 months. I would expect the dog to be running single T or better by now hopefully double t and running permenant blinds maybe. 
Where is your dog at handling wise?


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Just curious where did your pro run your dog when she got the 3 failures.........


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## Red Barn Retrievers (May 18, 2011)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> my 1 year old blf is in training at a pros and he's been handeling her in ht's in the jr I've missed all of the due to work . She has ran three test and failed all three the first one she blew it on the flyer and the second she cheated the water and the third she flat refused to go into the water . The trainer and I are confused cause she dose fine in traing and chokes at tests . Should I keep entering her in tetss and hopefuly she come around or should I have her take a break and focus on training or should we give up on ht's completly and focus on gun dog work(but if she can't pass a simple jr test which is basic gun dog tasks then will she even make it as a gun dog) . I've been spending alot of money on her traing and having her handeld in hts the traiiner wants to keep going and thinks shel come around but says it's my choice . I don't know what to do . Any thought or ideas ? Thanks


Are you training with the trainer to know she does fine. No I wouldn't enter her again untill you know she going to pass. She refused to go into the water, I would be finding out why. When a dog refuse's they are telling you something. There is a reason for all three mistakes those holes can be fixed, Choked why. I would rest the dog from training a week or two. Then start over. There is a lot going on in the dogs head. If she has drive and birdie you can get her going again if she a quiter, well, your choice.


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> Just curious where did your pro run your dog when she got the 3 failures.........


sunflower (ks) (1) , miami ok (2) and the first day at the jayhawk kingman ks


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> still curious.....


pro has had her since dec she has done ff and cc


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

Red Barn Retrievers said:


> Are you training with the trainer to know she does fine. No I wouldn't enter her again untill you know she going to pass. She refused to go into the water, I would be finding out why. When a dog refuse's they are telling you something. There is a reason for all three mistakes those holes can be fixed, Choked why. I would rest the dog from training a week or two. Then start over. There is a lot going on in the dogs head. If she has drive and birdie you can get her going again if she a quiter, well, your choice.


yes I've been to four training sessions and she does good


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

she won't run in a test again till the end of the month in lincion ne .and for those who keep asking the pro I both agree on entering tests and het gets my permision every time(he dosent just enter an bill me ) and after the whole water refuseal crap he scratchef het from 2 tests she was entered in and didn't charge me for them . As for my intentions for her I mainly want an good allround gundog but I personly think a good gun dog should be able to pass all ht levels or at least have the skills to so I told my pro I wanted him to get her a jr title at the least .


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> she won't run in a test again till the end of the month in lincion ne .and for those who keep asking the pro I both agree on entering tests and het gets my permision every time(he dosent just enter an bill me ) and after the whole water refuseal crap he scratchef het from 2 tests she was entered in and didn't charge me for them . As for my intentions for her I mainly want an good allround gundog but I personly think a good gun dog should be able to pass all ht levels or at least have the skills to so I told my pro I wanted him to get her a jr title at the least .


When he asks you for permission, does he state that she can pass the test? What part of the test did she have the problem with land/water?


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## Red Barn Retrievers (May 18, 2011)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> she won't run in a test again till the end of the month in lincion ne .and for those who keep asking the pro I both agree on entering tests and het gets my permision every time(he dosent just enter an bill me ) and after the whole water refuseal crap he scratchef het from 2 tests she was entered in and didn't charge me for them . As for my intentions for her I mainly want an good allround gundog but I personly think a good gun dog should be able to pass all ht levels or at least have the skills to so I told my pro I wanted him to get her a jr title at the least .


If you take the pressure off the test thing, put that on the back burner for a while. She a young dog time for all that. I never test a dog unless i am sure there aren't any holes to fall into. You say gundog. What do you plan on hunting? Non Slip or Upland, Duck dog. Start shooting birds , Field dog let her hunt them up, turn on her nose. All the problems you are having CAN be over come once you find out why. ya got to get into their head. You did get a good suggestion let another experienced dog man take a look. Good Luck and Happy Tails


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

Red Barn Retrievers said:


> If you take the pressure off the test thing, put that on the back burner for a while. She a young dog time for all that. I never test a dog unless i am sure there aren't any holes to fall into. You say gundog. What do you plan on hunting? Non Slip or Upland, Duck dog. Start shooting birds , Field dog let her hunt them up, turn on her nose. All the problems you are having CAN be over come once you find out why. ya got to get into their head. You did get a good suggestion let another experienced dog man take a look. Good Luck and Happy Tails


water fowl and upland but mainly waterfowl


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

metalone67 said:


> When he asks you for permission, does he state that she can pass the test? What part of the test did she have the problem with land/water?


well 2 out of the 4 she where land her main issue on is that when she can't find the bird quickly (both were flyers in thick cover) in she goes to gunners for help and stops looking for the mark and wants them to give her a bird. I have seen her do this once at a training session where they set up a mock land test (all 4 training fays I've been to were mock land hunt tests there where lots of people lots dogs live birds dead birds blinds live shotgun rounds It was just like the real deal) but the others wher good . As for the water she's failed 2 of the water rounds she's made it to. One she cheated the water and whent to the first mark and started a hunt on it and had to be called back in and the second water fail was she just flat wouldn't get in water (was told the water was really muddy and soupy) and she continued this in training a couple days (in clean water) trainer said she was not punished for this but he started focusing on just playing in the water with a duck finally after a couples days of play she started to go back into water as has been doing better I was told yesterday she didn't hessitate to go into water and got her first pass.


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

I'm gone from home for work 8 days and back home for 7 I was wondering if it would be a good idea to bring her home every time I'm home and work with her and play withher and just let her be a puppy and then take her back to the trainer when I leave again or would this just confuse herand make things worse


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## bmelvin (Feb 22, 2011)

N4D,

Im no pro just a guy who loves this game so take this for face value but if your pup is putting a short hunt together and has learned that she can get a bird at the winger station that is probably something she learned during training and should be addressed ASAP. Break things down to the simplest form and only have her do singles with one bird in play at a time and obviously make sure she is doing so in various cover. Also dont forget to use things like wind and terrain to aide her at this early stage to build her confidence. Later down the road those same tools will be used to increase the challenge of your setups.

Muddy or souy water shouldn't really be an issue. The more tests you run the more you will realize the judges look for challenging, muddy, lilly pad filled nightmares that trully test your dog. Has she been water forced? Sorry if someone asked that already i might have missed it.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> I'm gone from home for work 8 days and back home for 7 I was wondering if it would be a good idea to bring her home every time I'm home and work with her and play withher and just let her be a puppy and then take her back to the trainer when I leave again or would this just confuse herand make things worse


yes I think that would very much confuse the dog. 
worse? cant get much more can it?;-)
You seem committed to this trainer and pulling the pup in and out and in and out, well she ain't a squeeze box.
if the circumstances of life allow with your 8 on 7 off schedule. Maybe purchase a $40 tent at the wal-mart.
and sleep in the yard/field of your trainer 3-4 of your 7 days off and train with pup and pro every day you are able.
That way both of you get some learning. 
Some say, this is a team sport.



　
.


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

bmelvin said:


> N4D,
> 
> Im no pro just a guy who loves this game so take this for face value but if your pup is putting a short hunt together and has learned that she can get a bird at the winger station that is probably something she learned during training and should be addressed ASAP. Break things down to the simplest form and only have her do singles with one bird in play at a time and obviously make sure she is doing so in various cover. Also dont forget to use things like wind and terrain to aide her at this early stage to build her confidence. Later down the road those same tools will be used to increase the challenge of your setups.
> 
> Muddy or souy water shouldn't really be an issue. The more tests you run the more you will realize the judges look for challenging, muddy, lilly pad filled nightmares that trully test your dog. Has she been water forced? Sorry if someone asked that already i might have missed it.


 no not yet


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

What breed of dog is she and do you know anything about her pedigree is she out of field bred lines.


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## bmelvin (Feb 22, 2011)

I would have a conversation with your trainer about starting water force. As long as you have properly CC her. It really helps a dog (from my experience) have a water seeking attitude. Best of luck


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

What's your definition of "water force"??
Sue


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## bmelvin (Feb 22, 2011)

"*Water Force* is the compelling and influence that causes the dog to enter the water. Water Force is the final phase of force fetch."

"Evan treats water force as a component of force fetch because water force training comes closer to that description. No matter how much your dog appears to love water, unless retrieving in water becomes a structured function a lot of things can happen that impede efficient retrieving. Water forcing clears the air about typical problems dogs usually tend to run into, and provides a terrific co-benefit: They end up with an even better attitude about water than they began with!"

I just copied this off of gundogsupply.com because I couldn't say it any better myself. I am sure Evan could probably clean this up but this is what I agree water force is supposed to be.


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

Scott Parker said:


> What breed of dog is she and do you know anything about her pedigree is she out of field bred lines.


she is 1 yr old akc reg black lab nothing special on pedigree as far titles within 3 generations . She was basically a rescue but I did pay $150 for her was told she had a strong hunting back ground and that she had been hunting a little so 2 days after I got I took her duck hunting on a lead and she retrieved 2 ducks (really easy water marks) . a week later I took her to trainer to evaluate her he looked at her threw some birds played with her and said I got a great deal on her and she should do just fine in training and he took her on that day. I never thought much of pedigree just as long as they came from hunting lines and not show dogs . I thought I could prove that pedigrees didn't mean much but I think I'm being proven wrong and that all I'm acomplishing is paying over $3000 for a $150 house pet . dont get me wrong she's a sweetheart and I love her but mabey she just don't got it and I'm expecting to much out of her . I just don't wana give up on her


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

If you just want a hunting companion I think you should join a retriever club and train her yourself you'll save some money and I think you'll enjoy the time you spend with her more as she gets older and you expose her to more things she may turn out to be the perfect dog for you just have fun with her.


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

Scott Parker said:


> If you just want a hunting companion I think you should join a retriever club and train her yourself you'll save some money and I think you'll enjoy the time you spend with her more as she gets older and you expose her to more things she may turn out to be the perfect dog for you just have fun with her.


I am a member of a club . The only reason I'm not training her myself is I travel for work and gone 8days and home seven . I have thought about taking her with me and train before and after work but I work 10hr plus days and wouldn't be able to let her out during the day.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

nuts4ducksjw's information notwithstanding, I'm going to play devil's advocate and say an awful lot of you are quick to lay blame on the trainer, the dog and the owner for what could really be just a string of unfortunate bad luck. This could really almost be a separate thread, but how many of us can remember our own or others' failures at hunt tests--yes even at the junior level--because of plain bad luck or freakish circumstances? I know the way my luck has been lately, I could easily imagine this happening to me or one of my dogs.

One of my dogs did flunk her first junior test, though any pro would've said she was very well prepared for it. It was the first time she'd run anything except for a puppy stakes over a year earlier. On the first mark, she ran straight to it and was about to front foot it but she all of sudden skidded to a stop, turned tail and bolted back to the line. Judges or bird boys couldn't find anything that might've spooked her, but they let her run the 2nd which she also pinned, but she slowed way down, clearly spooked, when she was about 5' from it. Though she did pick it up, of course she was dropped. The next day I remembered that at the puppy stakes, she'd been first to run and the judge yelled out to the bird boy to open his camo umbrella after the pups picked up his mark so he'd be hidden when they ran the second. Unfortunately he opened his giant umbrella just as this pup was about to pick up the bird which spooked her really badly. I'd forgotten about it but apparently she hadn't, because she'd been sold shortly before this and clearly hadn't seen any marking set ups other than the baby marks she'd gotten before she left. She's not a spooky dog but spent over a year rarely if ever leaving her kennel, doing nothing except maybe remembering that puppy stakes before I got her back. And we did make a point of 'de-spooking' her to gun stations after that and she's never had a problem since.

Off the top of my head I can think of more. One junior test I was marshaling had an unfortunate set up for the holding blinds area; because it was on a hill with no cover, it provided the waiting dogs with a clear view of one of the marks unless the handlers were really careful to wait to move up when no marks were being thrown or retrieved. Even experienced handlers were losing dogs to this, if the dog was reasonably well-behaved there was no reason the handlers would notice their dogs watching this one station raining birds. Not surprisingly once on the line many dogs were fixated on that gun station and went there instead of to the first mark, or ended up there if they didn't find the first mark right away. Once I saw the first 7 or 8 dogs flunk for going to that station, I had a truck moved to partially block the view and warned the handlers to wait before moving between holding blinds. 

Another time, a friend's dog was nearly dropped at an autumn hunt test a few years ago: Junior land marks were in an abandoned cotton field with thick stubble. One flyer landed on top of and was impaled on a stump; when the dog returned with the bird that had meat hanging out of the breast, the judges dropped it for hardmouth. If the birdboy hadn't seen the bird land, this might've been a failure for just plain bad luck.

I'm sure we can each think of some freak circumstances of failure that would have to be classified as just plain bad luck. You'd have to really have seen each failure to decide that a trainer that ran a junior dog dropped at 3 consecutive tests to write that trainer and/or dog off as sorry.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> As for my intentions for her I mainly want an good allround gundog but I personly think a good gun dog should be able to pass all ht levels or at least have the skills to so I told my pro I wanted him to get her a jr title at the least .


If you want a good gundog and your definition is that the dog should be able to pass all HT levels maybe you have the right trainer but the wrong dog.(you cann't make a silk purse.... ). Not every retriever retrieves. 
Your trainer might just be trying to fulfill your request for at least a JH but will you be ultimately satisfied with this dog.
You might consider a very frank discussion with the trainer as to this dog's potential.

JMO

Tim


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## Red Barn Retrievers (May 18, 2011)

nuts4ducksjw said:


> she is 1 yr old akc reg black lab nothing special on pedigree as far titles within 3 generations . She was basically a rescue but I did pay $150 for her was told she had a strong hunting back ground and that she had been hunting a little so 2 days after I got I took her duck hunting on a lead and she retrieved 2 ducks (really easy water marks) . a week later I took her to trainer to evaluate her he looked at her threw some birds played with her and said I got a great deal on her and she should do just fine in training and he took her on that day. I never thought much of pedigree just as long as they came from hunting lines and not show dogs . I thought I could prove that pedigrees didn't mean much but I think I'm being proven wrong and that all I'm acomplishing is paying over $3000 for a $150 house pet . dont get me wrong she's a sweetheart and I love her but mabey she just don't got it and I'm expecting to much out of her . I just don't wana give up on her


 I would love to see this dog, This should be a easy fix. I would, as I said before, Take the pressure off first, If I see that she was playing games then I would put the pressure on. She must know what you want first. Again hunt her shoot pigeons alot, let her mature. She is maybe a smarter dog, more than you think, and knows what she can get away with....I like solving problems I wouldn't give up either. Breeding has a lot to do with it but dogs are predators and love to play. Teaching the rules to the game and bringing out the best in the dog is what a good trainer does. Good Luck if you give up, give me a holler first. Happy Tails


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I've never heard of Water Forcing a dog "because its' a part of force fetch"?
I FF about 15 dogs a yr. and have never ever forced any dog in the water ever........................................................
And Thank You Julie for your post.
It's soooooooooooo much easier to throw this poor guys trainer under the bus than to really have seen this dog work or even know the what the root of the problem is................
2 more good examples of internet training:-x
Sue


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

New trainer; enough said.
Professor


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## bmelvin (Feb 22, 2011)

Sue,

We could go back and forth about how we do things for the next 10 yrs. Just because you don't use that in your training program or haven't heard of it does not mean it doens't work. I am sure there are things you might use as tool to finish a dog that I don't. Either way the end goal is all the same. However, Water force is not about forcing a dog into the water as it is about creating a water seeking response. I couple water force with a extensive swim by program as laid out in Evan's literature and usually end up with a mutt that will seek water no matter the distance from the edge or the size of the piece of water. I am always open to new training techniques becasue no two dogs are the same and the more tools I have in the tool box to adjust to the dogs needs always makes me a better trainer. For no other reason other than to see how it works I would recommend you research it a little. Regards


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Sue Kiefer said:


> I FF about 15 dogs a yr. and have never ever forced any dog in the water ever........................................................
> 
> Sue


LOL just broght to my mind a picture of Sue at a pond throwing cookies to the dogs to try and get them to do a water T and swim by without force..

Some people think force fetch includes all the steps from hold thru water-t swim by. Some people consider force fetch to end with back piles and everything after that to be handling. Some people think once a dog is picking up off the ground to be the end of FF. 

I am pretty sure if one of the dogs Sue is training refuses to enter water there is some sort of force involved in getting them in the water. Most (or all)of the force in Water Force is on the land. 

Hmmm I do have a picture in my mind of a floating force fetch table in a quiet lagoon of a Carribian Island...


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

OMG really???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-x
Thank You B Melvin for your cordial response.
Sue


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## J Connolly (Aug 16, 2007)

Interesting thread. I don't if it's me but I would never pay a pro to run a dog in the junior. I have run my dog in them to get them use to the test ground environment and for the experience of running my dog. Our trainer wouldn't go near a junior test. A good trainer should know if a dog can that level of work without having to take it to a test.


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## nuts4ducksjw (Mar 15, 2010)

ok little update on cabella . I went to a short training session thismorning and she has improved alot her marking ability is getting beter .she pays atttention to the guns and is getting more steddy on the line . She finds the marks quickly instead of going to gunners for help . As for her water the trainer says she enters water just fine now but she has hard time finding the mark but he says she is progressing . I haven't seen much water work but there isn't very much water around here all of his ponds are amlost dryed up he has to travel to the north part of the state to find good water. We have held off on ht's for now won't do anther till fall thanks for everyones help god bless jeremy


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