# Repeat Blinds?



## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

I know the philosophy on marks is to repeat the concept, but not the actual mark and I do understand it, but...

...when running blinds do you train the same way? I usually put out 3 or so bumpers & re-run if it seems I had to work hard against a certain factor. The result on the repeats is much like a cheating single-"Oh ok! I get it now" & the line is good. But does the dog really learn anything from that?? i.e.-is he remembering the casts that kept him on line (not in a literal sense, but I think you know what I mean) or is he just going straight (& fighting factors) because that's what he's been taught & frankly-he knows where the bumper is?

If anyone understands my question  I'd appreciate feedback!

Thanks-

M


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Repeat the concept but not the blind. If it's a crosswind blind do 3 and give them 3 shots at being successful.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Miriam,

I repeat blinds very early in the dog's work on blind retrieves. I do a lot less drill work than most people talk about--just enough to introduce dogs to stopping and casting and being sent on different lines, and some forcing on back. I want them to know early that when I set them up and send, "there's something out there," and I know where it is. (John starts blinds in the field even earlier than I, sometimes skipping the drills altogether.)

This means I am trying to do blinds with a dog who has a fairly vague idea about casting. If necessary I follow him out, so I can give casts up close. Sometimes he clearly doesn't get the picture, and I call him to my side and try another send (this is when I'm partway out to the blind). I may apply some pressure to go. If there is enough of this that I think the "overall picture" has completely escaped the dog, I'll repeat. If he looks like lining it, I may stop him deliberately and give a back cast, just to practice the cast in a field situation.

I wean them off of this pretty quickly, probably by the time they've run ten or so blinds. Usually by setting up blinds in places dogs naturally tend to go, I can get them in the groove of taking a line and running a long way, so I don't need to rely on known destinations.

Another time I might repeat is if a dog surprises me by taking a cheat I didn't anticipate, at high speed, and getting his line screwed up as a consequence. Then he has in effect learned the wrong way to deal with that particular obstacle, and I want to correct it. I will repeat and insist on an honest line. 

I guess the overall principle is that if I feel the dog has learned the wrong thing, or failed to learn the right thing, I may repeat. Otherwise I don't. But I have repeated more in the past, and can see how repeating could have a place in a particular scheme of training. A repeated blind is like a taught or school blind, something like a drill.

Hope that helps,

Amy Dahl


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

I do not think that I have ever repeated a blind (not to say that is not a correct thing to do) .... 

I have come back another day....perhaps a week later...and run the same blind(s)...establishing "school" blinds. 

Cross wind....(I do) set blinds out and run them...just once each. I started with the school blinds..then cold blinds. Can see the dog really work to hold line to blind as they "get it"  

Also...I set "T" or a drill out in wind to practice my casting (in wind) with my dogs...and teach them to cast into or against it. 

They love training in wind so lots of good attitude to carry us through  

Judy


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

If I'm doing a new concept I will repeat a blind. Maybe even run it again in a day or two.

ALWAYS run multiple blinds though. I do blinds in groups of 3.


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## camhuff (Apr 4, 2007)

I've found running the same blind over when training with a young dog starts to build confidence. As their confidence grows I will run the same blind but I will change the angle or line to the blind I may walk the dog over say 100yds and run the blind from a different line. One thing I do as far as pushing a dog out on blinds is to setup a blind in a large field. Once they run this blind really good, lining it or maybe one whistle, then I will backup about fifty yards and run it again on the same line. I will do this until they can run this blind out to 500yds. Now this is not going to happen over a week to a month's time frame. This will take months to accomplish and its a fun thing not a pressure thing. It has made blind running fun for Tucker. Hope this info may help you. GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

...isn't running a blind from different locations...a "Chinese Drill"..which is a very good drill..? ...or am I thinking of the wrong term... Will have to double check. Great on water, too.


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

I setup multiple blinds in a Chiness drill or a tune-up drill and repeat the whole drill each day for about 5 days.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

THANKS! This is really helpful to me. Because I've just fairly recently left the comfort zone of pattern blinds for cold blinds I just want to make sure I'm giving him every opportunity to succeed & keep his great attitude & still challenge him. Key relationship drills have been great because of both the suction from the mark & the push/pull aspect of running the mark & 3 different blinds, so we will do those too, but I think my question related almost more to repeating a very challenging blind.

I started to type what we ran yesterday (I trained alone) because I really felt it went well (& it didn't seem "over his head"), but suffice it to say it's encouraging that (& especially dependent upon where the dog is in terms of his blind running experience) some of you would repeat. Given the challenges to this blind-distance, strong cross wind, a just run mark in the picture, angle entry & exit -I did think it would be beneficial to repeat. I thought effort was very good on the first run & I did back up & increase the severity of the angle entry.

I guess what I like about repeating is that -& I should say that I don't let him run the repeat as a just go out & go where you want & stumble on the bird. Squaring entries or exits he's cast on, etc. BUT-you can see him run the repeat with a REAL purpose & joie de vivre & it seems to allow me to increase the distance & angles with him having the same desire to run it as a mark. I don't want to get a false sense of confidence about that if it's not beneficial, but it SEEMS to be a good thing, so I appreciate the feedback that supports it & will definitely try all the suggetsions given.

THANK YOU AGAIN!!

M


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Miriam

You ask such good questions!

I learn a lot from your posts!

But,

HUH???------


> joie de vivre



Wasnt he a baseball player at one time??


Gooser


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Moosegooser wrote:



> Miriam
> 
> You ask such good questions!


Flattery will get you nowhere! If I put you in my will you'd be lucky to end up with beer $$$!



> But,
> 
> HUH???------Quote:
> joie de vivre
> ...


No! Soccer! Sheez-I thought _everybody_ knew that.

BTW-running bucket blinds takes on a whole new meaning when you run them! :wink: 

M


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> ...isn't running a blind from different locations...a "Chinese Drill"..which is a very good drill..? ...or am I thinking of the wrong term... Will have to double check. Great on water, too.


No, it isn't. Chinese drills are multiple blinds - sometimes run from a single location, and sometimes involving movement like Tune Up drills. 

The separation between them is that Tune Up's tend to be designed to re-expose a dog to similar concepts, like angle-entry, angle-exit during the drill. Chinese drills tend to involve similar concepts, blind-to-blind, but also add numerous other concepts, blind-to-blind. They get much more complex as the dog develops.

To directly address the original question, "No". After a brief exposure to pattern blinds to get them going on blinds with a confident attitude, I move on to a fair, sequential, and progressive exposure to cold blinds.

Evan


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## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

Good thread. Thanks for the thoughtful posts. My dog is in the same stage and this helps.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I will repeat a blind, but only once in a blue moon - I use to be in the same mind frame - repeat more times than not - I've changed to do LOTS of cold blinds and don't get wrapped around the axle if it isn't perfect - the dog is learning how to handle and the only way to do that is to run cold blinds.....I also do blind drills when I can.....but Bullet is a dog that really excells at drills so it is more of a confidence low stress thing for him that I use when I see things start to get out of balance....

FOM


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

I was repeating blinds to build confidence (not clear at this point if it was to build the dogs confidence or mine :shock: ). The problem that it created was that when he got there and saw multiple dummies, it was a draw to pull him back to that area. If I set up three blinds with three each (in case I felt the need to repeat), while trying a different blind the old ones kept pulling him over.

I have since changed to what others suggest. Three individual blinds instead of multiples. It has definitely helped.

While I sometimes have trouble finding the right way to do it, I come away from every training session having learned one more "what NOT to do".


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Ron in Portland wrote:



> If I set up three blinds with three each (in case I felt the need to repeat), while trying a different blind the old ones kept pulling him over.


I took a workshop by Carol Cassity and one of her sayings is "Don't hide the candy". In essence-if you never provide the dog w/ suction you won't ever be able to handle him away from it (At least that's my interpretation of what she's trying to say). BTW-she did some demos w/ her dogs which were pretty amazing & made it abundantly clear that she practices what she preaches & walks the walk.

I haven't had the particular issue your dealing with, but if you haven't run key relationship drills-try them-because they incorporate running blinds associated w/ marks-in the form of both old falls & poison birds-as well as running tight to gunners, etc.

The bottom line is that (& I am noooooooooooo expert on blinds & have a LONG way to go right now) your dog needs to take the line you've given & the subsequent casts no matter what he remembers is out there.

M


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## Paul Stuart (Aug 3, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Miriam
> 
> You ask such good questions!
> 
> ...


Joie de vivre is what Samuel de Champlain had after he drank all that alcohol when discovering the new land in Quebec City.
Sheez I thought everybody knew that???


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Paul Stuart said:


> MooseGooser said:
> 
> 
> > Miriam
> ...


Back away from the Molsons slowly Paul! :wink: 

Eh Regards-

M


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

I thought Samuel de Champlain was a hockey player. He played baseball, too?


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

.."but Bullet is a dog that really excells at drills so it is more of a confidence low stress thing for him that I use when I see things start to get out of balance...."

I go back to drills for the very same...nice to see this post!


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

a twist on repeats....

instead of repeating from the same starting point, run the same blind backwards. especially good if they struggled the first time.

a dog may be all over the place on the way out, but they return fairly straight, and this route is fresh in their mind.

then come back in a week or so and run it the original way. you should see a big improvement.-paul


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2007)

Miriam Wade said:


> (snip)you can see him run the repeat with a REAL purpose & joie de vivre & it seems to allow me to increase the distance & angles with him having the same desire to run it as a mark. I don't want to get a false sense of confidence about that if it's not beneficial, but it SEEMS to be a good thing, so I appreciate the feedback that supports it & will definitely try all the suggetsions given.
> 
> THANK YOU AGAIN!!
> 
> M


Repeating blinds is a good way to build HANDLER confidence...

If you're studious and conscientious as you set up and run your early cold blinds and the few months of blinds where you're introducing marks and other concepts, there's no reason for your dog to "lose confidence".

I think the danger zone for most folks is that once they're through the yard, they consider their dog "done" and they go out and run whatever blind or blinds presents itself/themselves.

First sets of cold blinds should have no factors, no pressure (except go/stop/come) and should be a situation where you're guiding the dog along versus "making" it cast and go. I have a couple of dogs running their first cold blinds as of yesterday and they were hell on wheels, having a blast.

Today we'll go run again somewhere new.

I see absolutely no benefit to repeating a blind except to make the handler feel better -- and this is really about the DOG. Handler satisfaction isn't immediate in early cold blinds. You have to accept "momentum casting" standards and the blinds may, or may not, look like giant zigzags. But for NOW, that's a SUPER effort and absolutely acceptable. 

What are you seeing in these early cold blinds that you REALLY want to repeat? What did the dog do or not do that makes you want to repeat it?

Because early cold blinds are not about lining and taking factors -- they're simply about running hard, stopping when instructed and changing direction. And if the dog doesn't do those... There's something wrong in fundamental training. And repeating to a known destination IS going to give you a false sense of security that your dog is doing the right thing -- when, in fact, the only reason he/she is doing it is because they know the destination... In early cold blinds they should go/stop/come/change direction when they DO NOT know the destination... Hence, no good reason to repeat a blind. I can't imagine ANY good reason to repeat a blind as far as improving training, confidence, performance... At least not immediately.

-K


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Kristie-

I appreciate your post, but do want to address this:



> If you're studious and conscientious as you set up and run your early cold blinds and the few months of blinds where you're introducing marks and other concepts, there's no reason for your dog to "lose confidence".
> 
> I think the danger zone for most folks is that once they're through the yard, they consider their dog "done" and they go out and run whatever blind or blinds presents itself/themselves.
> 
> First sets of cold blinds should have no factors, no pressure (except go/stop/come) and should be a situation where you're guiding the dog along versus "making" it cast and go.


Especially want to address it because Finn got a late start on basics-wasn't cc, ff until 16 months & the person (Chylo Schifferns) who had him for 5 months doing basics through swim-by did a fabulous job of giving me back a dog who doesn't hold pressure & has a dynamite attitude on marks & blinds. I know there are no holes in his basics & he never "sees ghosts". 

I also feel that, unlike w/ Kate who wasn't given the training (my fault) to show what she could have been, I'm trying to give Finn every chance to succeed, take it slowly & get it right for his sake. It's exactly because I don't consider him "done" that I'm trying to learn as much as I can from successful folks. I've also resisted (as you also alluded to) the temptation when training with others to run whatever blinds they've set up because "he's two years old and should be able to do this" THAT's dangerous thinking when you just cowboy up every time you train with folks and the dog loses ground every time.

His initial cold blinds were exactly what you've described-featureless, stop, go & cast. In stepping it up a bit-he still has confidence & then some-"Dead Bird" is met w/ as much enthusiasm as "Mark"- & I'm getting the sits on whistle-he is letting me drive! My question about repeating wasn't alluding to trying to bolster a lack of confidence-that's not an issue for this dog-I don't get pops, spins, no-goes, etc. MY biggest handicap is remembering that casts won't always be as crisp as I'd like them & there is no shame in following him out, walking out a cast, etc. I think it's to that end that I questioned repeats-does *he* gain anything by repeating. You are saying no & I understand where you're coming from, but...

...I may see which method for him & I translates into solid blind work for us. 

Thanks!!

M


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

K,
Let me ask you objectively what your thoughts would be on the benefit (if any) of a handler who runs these early straight forward blinds that you describe _but also _periodically runs their dog on these repeat blinds. No, not to build the dogs confidance to run to a known destination but rather to mantain _their_ confidance and skills in holding the correct line over/past appropriate factors/suction? Would such an approach be a plus in their progress or offer nothing IYO?
Thanks for Your Thoughts,
Peake
________
Easy Vape Instruction Manual


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2007)

Peake said:


> K,
> Let me ask you objectively what your thoughts would be on the benefit (if any) of a handler who runs these early straight forward blinds that you describe _but also _periodically runs their dog on these repeat blinds. No, not to build the dogs confidance to run to a known destination but rather to mantain _their_ confidance and skills in holding the correct line over/past appropriate factors/suction? Would such an approach be a plus in their progress or offer nothing IYO?
> Thanks for Your Thoughts,
> Peake


No benefit... If the handler needs the assurance, they should go try it again somewhere else.

You teach this stuff through early cheating singles and there you repeat it, backing up to increase difficulty. By the time you run it as blinds, dog should have a general understanding of what you're asking.

If someone WANTS to repeat, have at it. I just don't see it having any long-term benefit to the training program. It's simply "feel good" for the handler. 

Blinds, in my opinion, are much different animals than marks... yes, we do the same concepts, factors whatever in many cases. But in the dog's head -- as many of us witness -- it's two different things. There are plenty of dogs that "run blinds as hard as marks". But they still know the difference... And they need to be as willing on blinds as they are on marks to take things head on.

With that said... Say someone is sending their dog over a log en route to a blind. The dog "fails" (to any degree, for purposes of example) and they want to rerun the blind. It's very easy... All you have to do is treat the log like the center of an asterisk and take another line (using the points of the asterisk) over the log. There are some fields where that may not work due to terrain. But the example stands. 

You want to see if the dog can go over the log COLD and you want to teach the dog to go over the log COLD. And from early cheating singles, no-no drills, the dog should learn from repetition (without being beat up or defeating attitude) to go over said log! 

And I feel the dog is capable (if basics are sound) to learn from the reptition of COLD LINES (even if over the same obstacle) to take things head on. I just don't FEEL, and yes it's a feeling, that there is near enough impact of repeating a known blind versus doing a new cold blind on the same obstacle or similar obstacle in a new location.

There are some things, and repeating blinds is one of them, where I feel (solely on my experience, so take it for what it's worth) training becomes useless and people are spinning their wheels when they could actually be accomplishing something. This is an example of that... Same thing with going out and doing basic obedience lessons with older dogs or repeating unnecessary drills the dog already knows just to do something...

-K


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## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

K,
Thanks for your opinion.
Peake
________
Fisting Girl


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> ..a "Chinese Drill"...


the Chinese drill, developed and named by Rex, involves multiple blinds (like marbles on a Chinese checker board) all run from the same spot. This is typically the young dog's first exposure to cold blinds after basics. It can be made more difficult by altering the order, thpically 5 blinds are put out and retrieved 1,3,5,2,4

The idea with the Chinese drill is for the dogs to learn to go and to handle, any initial line is accepted. It would not be unusual to repeat a Chinese drill altering the order of retrieve to 5,3,1,4,2

The by-product of doing the Chinese drill several days in succession is that the dogs beging to lean to take different initial lines on individual blinds


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Paul Stuart said:


> Joie de vivre is what Samuel de Champlain had after he drank all that alcohol when discovering the new land in Quebec City.
> Sheez I thought everybody knew that???


Paul, I've read this a half dozen times and I still don't know whaty you just said....

/Paul


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## LH (Jan 24, 2006)

EdA said:


> Judy Chute said:
> 
> 
> > ..a "Chinese Drill"...
> ...



Perhaps stupid question, but are these blinds completely blind so to speak? The dog does not know that there is something out there? What makes the dog learn to take different initial lines on individual blinds?


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## LH (Jan 24, 2006)

Miriam Wade said:


> I know the philosophy on marks is to repeat the concept, but not the actual mark and I do understand it, but...
> 
> ...when running blinds do you train the same way? I usually put out 3 or so bumpers & re-run if it seems I had to work hard against a certain factor. The result on the repeats is much like a cheating single-"Oh ok! I get it now" & the line is good. But does the dog really learn anything from that?? i.e.-is he remembering the casts that kept him on line (not in a literal sense, but I think you know what I mean) or is he just going straight (& fighting factors) because that's what he's been taught & frankly-he knows where the bumper is?
> 
> ...



More perhaps stupid questions: how does one effectuate "repeat the concept, but not the actual mark"?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

LH said:


> EdA said:
> 
> 
> > Judy Chute said:
> ...


As I learned to run Chinese drills at Rex's, they are cold blinds, but the drill may be re-run over a course of 3-5 days. That sounds contradictory, but it's similar to Tune up drills. The blinds are not pre-identified, and as such are cold blinds.

Returning to run them on a different day uses a factor of familiarity, but the proximities created make them more challenging than mere pattern blinds, if that is what you were wondering.

I was impressed that there were multiple configurations of drill work that Rex referred to as Chinese drills. Below is a diagram out of our notes of a drill that Rex was teaching to a couple of client dogs, described as an advanced Chinese drill. The name was much longer, but I think a number of people may recongize it.










The inner tier of bumpers were small white's, which were picked up first, and replaced as the dog went along. Then, the second tier were actually small black bumpers - also replaced after being retrieved. Then the outer tier (small orange) were water blinds, retrieved last.

This one was referred to as a favorite pre-national drill of his. We ran at least two other drills that summer, which Rex also referred to as Chinese drills, but which had a more fluid application, including moving the line here and there as the drill went along.

Those familiar with CL-2, this diagram is of a drill run from the hill near "The Tree", pictured in the background. In the picture is Curtis Jackson, a longtime assistant to Rex. To his left is Rex's old green monster truck, with my old dog truck in the background. Directly beyond my truck is the hill from which we ran the drill.










Evan


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

LH said:


> Miriam Wade said:
> 
> 
> > I know the philosophy on marks is to repeat the concept, but not the actual mark and I do understand it, but...
> ...



Run a mark “past a point,” then run a similar mark elsewhere, a mark “past a point” in another location. If you have a nice pond, you could set up a handful of marks that all have the dog swim past a point. The point could/should be at different parts of the mark, the beginning, middle and end as well.

Repeating a concept, not repeating a mark.

Now, all the expert opinions aside, If you are a novice and don’t have unlimited access to an unlimited variety of water with unlimited looks available, you will probably repeat marks somewhere in your training.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Adding to the very good post above, you could teach that route "past a point", or a route with an angle-entry or angle-exit, etc, using cheating singles. But, to re-expose a dog to concepts like inline multiples, or indented triples, flower pot doubles, and so on, you really are going to have to run those concepts in different places to provide the dog with the skills specific to them.

Repeating a set up (or blind, for that matter) is what I recall Rex referring to as _"salve for the hanlder"_. It makes us feel better seeing the dog succeed, but it does little to advance the dog's skill level for cold applications later.

Evan


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Just an observation.

I wonder if a lot of the recurring discussion about repeating of blinds and/or running lifelong pattern blinds stems from the intent to "simplify"??

It is standard, often-heard advice, whenever one hits a snag, to "SIMPLIFY" ..... back up and teach. So I wonder if, when someone is not satisfied with their cold blind work, they attempt to "simplify" by going back to patterns (or known blinds or taught blinds or schooled blinds or repeated blinds or any other term you may use to describe sending the dog to a known destination).

Doing so, (my humble opinion, of course) is not a simplification of the cold blind, but is actually changing your tack to an entirely different lesson/drill with different purposes.

If you think about it, there are usually a lot of ways to simplify your cold blind work and still keep it cold.

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

JS said:


> Just an observation.
> 
> ...they attempt to "simplify" by going back to patterns (or known blinds or taught blinds or schooled blinds or repeated blinds or any other term you may use to describe sending the dog to a known destination).
> 
> ...


I agree completely. Repeat blinds are not cold blinds, and do not involve the same core mental processes to run them. The dog knows where he's going from the moment he leaves the line. That's why he runs confidently, *NOT* because he's now confident about how he would run a cold blind. A dog running a repeat has almost no dependence on his handler.

A dog running cold blinds is completely dependent on the handler to get him there, and must remain under control to get there successfully. That is a very different task, with a very different mindset required of the dog. If you need your dog to be better, faster, and more efficient on cold blinds, your best course of action is to run more cold blinds, more fairly and consistently.

Evan


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This is a GREAT thread! Thank you all.

My younger dog is a Nightmare!

I think I have done a pretty good job at yard work. She has done well at patterns in a city park at up to 200 yrd distances.

I am now starting to run true cold blinds, in cover and terrain.
At first, she was pretty willing to work with me. But as we do more, If she isnt at the bird after about 3 or 4 casts,, the wheels come off,, and she goes biserk.
She has started to get overly excited with the "dead" cue and the hand over her head.She runs Hard , but I feel we are really going backwards.
Do I just keep at it?,, and HOPE things will calm down?,, Do you think this is a normal thing? or is there something I need to re-visit!
Thanks again for the great information!

Gooser


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Gooser,

Have you done any Bird Boy Blinds, or Zig-Zag Drills? An easy introduction, like these drills give a young dog on cold blinds, offers an acceptance of the control you're struggling for with your dog. You'll establish a teamwork with your dog, as you gradually run slightly more difficult, longer blinds, rather than jumping perhaps too far forward in the process.

Evan


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Evan said:


> I agree completely. Repeat blinds are not cold blinds, and do not involve the same core mental processes to run them. The dog knows where he's going from the moment he leaves the line. That's why he runs confidently, *NOT* because he's now confident about how he would run a cold blind. A dog running a repeat has almost no dependence on his handler.
> 
> A dog running cold blinds is completely dependent on the handler to get him there, and must remain under control to get there successfully. That is a very different task, with a very different mindset required of the dog. If you need your dog to be better, faster, and more efficient on cold blinds, your best course of action is to run more cold blinds, more fairly and consistently.
> 
> Evan


There ya go!! Well said


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Evan

I have done BB blinds. Dont know what a Zig Zag drill is.

Most all the drill work She does well on. Its the transfere to the field that seems to be causing the confusion. 

When its field work, her excitement level is way up on the bar. 

Today I got her through a simple blind,, but I followed her out. Initially she gave me cast refusals till she saw I was following out behind her, then she started to take the casts. We got her to the blind,, I repeted it,, she lined it,,I gave her praise,, and put her up. 

We did marks later,, and then Those were a disaster! She would just blow by them at warp 10,, and end up 150 yrds deep. It took help three different times with the same EASY mark before she picked it up clean with out help from the gunner.

This ones gonna be a challenge for Me. A true case of to much horse for the challenged jockey!

Frustrating,, cause like I said I have had her as a test dog on two different occations, and she did fine,,now,, The wheels have come off,, and we're skiddin off into oblivion!

Thanks for the reply!

Gooser


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Evan
> 
> I have done BB blinds. Dont know what a *Zig Zag drill* is.


Gooser,

Let me say first that it doesn't sound as if you've done enough Transitional drill work, or that you have very likely expanded on its use adequately. That is probably why your dog's fieldwork is so poor in comparison to his drill work.

Zig-Zag is a little drill of my own creation that resembles the mechanics of a Tune-up drill, only on land. It's a gentle introduction to running multiple blinds in close proximity. It does this, reasonably, in gradual steps as the drill proceeds.










During the same period in which you're running Zig-Zag's you should also be running many more BB Blinds, gradually increasing distance for enhanced control. I'm sure you understand the universal influence of distance being to erode control, and to exacerbate the influences of other factors, as well.


MooseGooser said:


> Most all the drill work She does well on. Its the transfer to the field that seems to be causing the confusion.


That's exactly what makes me think you haven't done enough of it! Dogs do what they are in the habit of doing. The drills I'm suggesting contain cold blinds - little simple ones at first. BB Blinds continue to lenghten as the dog gains skill to remain under control. This becomes habit.


MooseGooser said:


> When its field work, her excitement level is way up on the bar.


That is reasonable, and so is giving her better preparation for it through lots of Transitional drill work.


MooseGooser said:


> Today I got her through a simple blind,, but I followed her out. Initially she gave me cast refusals till she saw I was following out behind her, then she started to take the casts. We got her to the blind,, I repeted it,, she lined it,,I gave her praise,, and put her up.


Two things:

First, as you continue to run longer blinds her momentum will rise. She will become a bit myopic about driving, and that is reasonable to expect. Along with that, your little hot rod is going to over run some marks due to that influence.

Change your tack on marking for a while. Run A, B, C drills and/or lots of Stickman drills as singles. Run many of them as check down drills so her little brain is engaged on each mark. Again, build good habits without excessive pressure.


MooseGooser said:


> We did marks later,, and then Those were a disaster! She would just blow by them at warp 10,, and end up 150 yrds deep. It took help three different times with the same EASY mark before she picked it up clean with out help from the gunner.
> 
> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> Gooser


Yep! Stickman drills!

Evan


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Evan wrote:

The dog knows where he's going from the moment he leaves the line. That's why he runs confidently, NOT because he's now confident about how he would run a cold blind. A dog running a repeat has almost no dependence on his handler.

First-I HATE this new format & I don't even see the "quote" option. It's taken me 2 days to get logged in!

Ok-anyway what you wrote above makes sense to me. Thanks for making it black & white!

M


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Miriam Wade said:


> Evan wrote:
> 
> The dog knows where he's going from the moment he leaves the line. That's why he runs confidently, NOT because he's now confident about how he would run a cold blind. A dog running a repeat has almost no dependence on his handler.
> 
> ...


M,

The "Quote" button is in the lower right. But I agree with you, we have almost no options in our new forum - at least so far. No *Bold*, or Underline...not many creative options at all.

Anyway, I'm glad I was able to clarify the differences. 

Hoping for more tools regards,

Evan


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Miriam,

I'm glad that you were able to log on. I apologize to those of you who dislike the new format.

We really were forced to get off php. It was clumsy, inefficient (remember the error boxes you guys would get when "too much server use" was happening at once?). Password losses were not a simple thing that the user could fix via a button click and a subsequent email to put them back in the ballgame, etc.

Once we get used to it all, it will work great. There will be some bugs to sort through and some adjustments. It's only 24 hours into the new format! (well, maybe 28 now) It will work better.

Brother Steve, (Dannaway) thanks man! You are doing great and the amount of downtime that RTF'ers encountered during the conversion was minimal and most never even knew there was any! 

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

*Bold*

underline

_italics_

Above is a test....All I'm doing is putting tags inside brackets....and then closing the tags with a slash in front of the tag.

Bold=b
Underline=u
Italics-i

Did it work?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Evan-

Thank You so much!

I copied your reply.

I think you are right about the AMOUNT of transition work the dog has done. 

More work for us!

Thanks

Gooser


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> *Bold*
> 
> underline
> 
> ...


The formatting options you see depend on the default editor selected for posting messages. In the User Control Panel (User CP), under Edit Options, the last option listed is for the editor. By default, the site is selecting a basic text box editor forcing you to know the formatting codes to be able to insert formatted text. If you select the WYSIWYG editor instead, you will see a full range of formatting options.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Evan-
> 
> Thank You so much!
> 
> ...



Gooser-

THANKS for being honest enough with the description of how your dog is running cold blinds. It's really helping me a lot to see the suggestions-especially when it pertains to possibly skipping steps that will make things ultimately unfair to my dog.

And thanks for the responses Evan!

Chris-I just hate change and I liked the old site, but...

...complaining about this is much like being invited to dinner & saying the turkey is dry & the gravy is lumpy when what you're enjoying is the company at the table! So-THANKS CHRIS!!!!!!!!!!!

M


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Yardley, you are a genius!!! 
Synergy at work.

_*JS


*_


YardleyLabs said:


> The formatting options you see depend on the default editor selected for posting messages. In the User Control Panel (User CP), under Edit Options, the last option listed is for the editor. By default, the site is selecting a basic text box editor forcing you to know the formatting codes to be able to insert formatted text. If you select the WYSIWYG editor instead, you will see a full range of formatting options.



OK, why is my new message _above_ the quoted one??????? I suppose there is a place to customize that?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thanks *Yardley*!! You the best


_really Smart!!!_

_Unlike Gooser_



_Gooser_


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

You're welcome, Gooser. And thanks, Yardley! *That helped!* 

Evan


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

I like it too!:BIG:


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

I am going to speak about this technically as per Rex.

The Chinese Drill has been mistakenly called a number of things and/or used to depict and or denote a number of other drills that it essentially is not. 

The drill that Evan has drawn is _not_ the Chinese Drill. It is a variation of the Advanced 32-Bumper Drill. 

The Chinese Drill typically involves 8 blinds and a reference pile, often 5 on the left and 3 on the right or vice versa. The Tune-Up Drill actually was born from the Chinese Drill. Although Rex usually just applied the pure Chinese Drill to certain advanced dogs, he started doing an off-shoot of it, the 5-bumper side, with young dogs--and note that the "side" is not always a "side" but can be in various configurations, which would be why a variation arose between the actual "Tune-Up" and the young dog "Chinese"...

I hope this helps. 

Technically speaking purity regards,
Vickie




Evan said:


> As I learned to run Chinese drills at Rex's, they are cold blinds, but the drill may be re-run over a course of 3-5 days. That sounds contradictory, but it's similar to Tune up drills. The blinds are not pre-identified, and as such are cold blinds.
> 
> Returning to run them on a different day uses a factor of familiarity, but the proximities created make them more challenging than mere pattern blinds, if that is what you were wondering.
> 
> ...


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

Just a couple of comments to add:

First of all, lest we lose sight of the big picture, let it be kept in mind that a number of good trainers repeat marks quite often. Just sayin'...

And regarding blinds, there are any number of reasons and situations to repeat them.

An example is in doing Contrary Blinds, a favorite of Rex's but very time-consuming. 

Thanks for reading--- 



Miriam Wade said:


> I know the philosophy on marks is to repeat the concept, but not the actual mark and I do understand it, but...
> 
> ...when running blinds do you train the same way? I usually put out 3 or so bumpers & re-run if it seems I had to work hard against a certain factor. The result on the repeats is much like a cheating single-"Oh ok! I get it now" & the line is good. But does the dog really learn anything from that?? i.e.-is he remembering the casts that kept him on line (not in a literal sense, but I think you know what I mean) or is he just going straight (& fighting factors) because that's what he's been taught & frankly-he knows where the bumper is?
> 
> ...


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> ..... The Chinese Drill typically involves 8 blinds and a reference pile, often 5 on the left and 3 on the right or vice versa.
> .....


Ok, so Vickie, would you describe the Chinese drill as you define it and how it is run? I'm not familiar with "reference pile".

Thanks!

JS


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> Just a couple of comments to add:
> 
> First of all, lest we lose sight of the big picture, let it be kept in mind that a number of good trainers repeat marks quite often. Just sayin'...
> 
> ...


What is a Contrary Blind????

And Vicki, how's the Rex Carr book coming along???!?!?!?! 

FOM


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> I am going to speak about this technically as per Rex.
> 
> The drill that Evan has drawn is _not_ the Chinese Drill. It is a variation of the Advanced 32-Bumper Drill.
> 
> ...


As I said, we ran at least two other drills that summer (1987) that Rex also named as "Chinese drills", but which were markedly different than the one diagrammed previously. They were also run differently.

The one diagrammed here was called (by Rex) _"The Advanced Chinese Combination Land/Water Split Drill'_. We all got a good laugh from that mouthful of a name. But that's what he called it. The thing is that over the years I've seen enough reference to layouts like it, called by others a "Chinese drill", that it seems to me that many have seen it and heard it referenced that way and assumed that it was 'the' one and only.

To me it's a split drill with a third tier of water blinds. I only recently found our notebook with at least one diagram of another of the drills noted by Rex to be a "Chinese" drill. It's run much more like a Tune-up, but it does contain some splits.

Vickie, do you have a diagram to offer so we can get a clearer view of what you're talking about?

Thanks.

Evan


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

JS and Evan--
I have written an article on the Chinese Drill and I'm trying to find that while I'm stuck here on the computer today. That would save some typing. 

Also, perhaps I could learn, finally, how to diagram something? Evan, I do have Illustrator but have never used it. Would that work? 

Evan--
The drill you diagrammed has been called "The Advanced Chinese Combination Land/Water Split Drill' and a few other things, but when it comes down to it, by Rex, it is a variation of the Advanced 32-Bumper Drill. Fortunately, Rex and I had the opportunity to work on a large amount of this information over the years before he died, and he took the word "Chinese" out of a number of references for the sake of clarity. Hope this clears it up.  

FOM--
This is quoted from the Rex book and from Rex:
"A Contrary Blind has a line that dogs are not apt to run straight because of the lay of the land and the direction of the wind. In order to have a great line-running dog, it is necessary to work on contrary lines. But, let me warn you that it is a waste of time to try and teach the average field trial dog contary lines. It simply is not wise; it isn't worth it. Go ahead and run any dog over these lines but don't get panicky about these lines with most dogs. Only do this with exceptional line-running dogs that are worthy of such an effort. 
"In any case, be careful about teaching contrary lines. For the most part, contrary lines should be permanent blinds because it takes so much effort to establish an ideal line on a contrary blind and these blinds are good to come back to often when you feel a need to true up your dog on line running." End of quote.

We worked with a few dogs on Contrary Blinds at places such as Woodward Reservoir and Modesto Reservoir (no longer available for training)...Contrary blinds contain a number of factors from the beginning to the end.

Hope this helps.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> JS and Evan--
> I have written an article on the Chinese Drill and I'm trying to find that while I'm stuck here on the computer today. That would save some typing.
> 
> Also, perhaps I could learn, finally, how to diagram something? Evan, I do have *Illustrator* but have never used it. Would that work?


Yes. But it will take some getting used to. I wish I could offer some shortcuts, but it's a good program and is a little harder to use than good old MS Paint.

I hope you find that article because this issue comes up fairly consistently.

Thanks.

Evan


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## Vickie Lamb (Jan 6, 2003)

Evan said:


> Yes. But it will take some getting used to. I wish I could offer some shortcuts, but it's a good program and is a little harder to use than good old MS Paint.
> 
> I hope you find that article because this issue comes up fairly consistently.
> 
> ...


Well, I'll start practicing with Illustrator. 

But in the meantime, I'll try to draw the Chinese Drill with Paint, if you can give me a few pointers on how to use Paint. Never have tried that either, I guess.

And, if I don't find the article, I will still post in-depth on the drill, but it may be tonight if I have to type and think instead of copy and paste! LOL.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> FOM--
> This is quoted from the Rex book and from Rex:
> "A Contrary Blind has a line that dogs are not apt to run straight because of the lay of the land and the direction of the wind. In order to have a great line-running dog, it is necessary to work on contrary lines. But, let me warn you that it is a waste of time to try and teach the average field trial dog contary lines. It simply is not wise; it isn't worth it. Go ahead and run any dog over these lines but don't get panicky about these lines with most dogs. Only do this with exceptional line-running dogs that are worthy of such an effort.
> "In any case, be careful about teaching contrary lines. For the most part, contrary lines should be permanent blinds because it takes so much effort to establish an ideal line on a contrary blind and these blinds are good to come back to often when you feel a need to true up your dog on line running." End of quote.
> ...


Amazing, even I understand that description.....hmmmmm, guess I was doing that with my pattern blinds without realizing it.....I have a "simple" pattern blind field - almost featureless and low cover - I use it for teaching concepts in a very black and white environment.....then my pattern field I like to revisit from time to time has blinds that range from meaty to super challenging and lots of terrain in between, but each terrain feature can be broken into phases and I can simplify when teaching and once I feel he has gotten it, I can piece it all together.....I usually revisit this pattern field when I get my mutt back from my Pro - it is a way to build some confidence between the two of us....he knows where he is going, I know the pitfalls of the pattern yet we are a little rusty and both need a tune-up.....

Looking foward to reading the entire book!

Lainee, Flash and 'Buttlet'


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

[color=blue said:


> Evan--
> FOM--
> This is quoted from the Rex book and from Rex:
> "A Contrary Blind has a line that dogs are not apt to run straight because of the lay of the land and the direction of the wind. In order to have a great line-running dog, it is necessary to work on contrary lines. But, let me warn you that it is a waste of time to try and teach the average field trial dog contary lines. It simply is not wise; it isn't worth it. Go ahead and run any dog over these lines but don't get panicky about these lines with most dogs. Only do this with exceptional line-running dogs that are worthy of such an effort.
> ...


So Vicky-in a case like this was Rex advocating running certain things as permanent blinds & does that mean there certain blinds being re-run weren't just "salve for the handler"?

If you have time-I'd love to hear a detailed description of the contrary blinds you ran & what made them so difficult for the dogs. I'm not being very articulate in my framing of the question, but I'm at work & getting interrupted every other word! :-(

M


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Vickie Lamb said:


> Well, I'll start practicing with Illustrator.
> 
> But in the meantime, I'll try to draw the Chinese Drill with Paint, if you can give me a few pointers on how to use Paint. Never have tried that either, I guess.


Vickie,

Call me, or email me. It will be easier to explain it that way.

Evan


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