# Will just any dog with a NFC pedigree do??



## rambo48 (Dec 7, 2012)

I need a good duck hunting dog and have a couple of NFC titled dogs in mind for my new puppy? But will any pups out of high titled lines be good hunting dogs?


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Only if you know how to train a dog for hunting. They don't come out of a box "knowing" how to be good hunting dogs.


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## rambo48 (Dec 7, 2012)

I know that… But lets , which I am, sending it off to a professional trainer. Will any high titled pedigree'd dog make a good hunting dog?


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## Chris Videtto (Nov 4, 2010)

maybe a little overkill wanting an NFC. Lots of very nice breedings out their including fc/afc x MH/qaa and MH x MH that I'm sure will make very nice ht dogs and hunting dogs as well. 

Plus what Raina said as well!


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

??? Depends. Could be way more dog than you want/need, which could lead to "boredom" issues with the dog (the dog gets bored, you- not so much!) such as vocalization, breaking/creeping constantly, etc.. There have also been known to be "duds" on occasion with any breeding. Would it increase the odds of getting an eager retriever? Yes.


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## rambo48 (Dec 7, 2012)

Im starting to get what your saying Raina, your saying a high field trial dog maybe too much dog due to the fact that Im only the weekend duck hunter and these dogs need to be year round workers? Let me know if that's what you mean? Thanks.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

A couple NFC titled dogs? There is only 1 per year and at this time I'm sure less than 10 living.
Are you saying pups with NFC in their background or NFC sired?

Bert


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## rambo48 (Dec 7, 2012)

Haha…. no NFC targeted pedigree's. Sorry for the confusion. Or even FC/AFC sired.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Some of the best true hunting dogs only carry one title - companion.

I would venture to say Some, not all high bread FT dogs are probably way more dog than the average hunter can handle. Even if pro trained you have to be able to keep the trained standard upheld throughout the hunting season.


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## rambo48 (Dec 7, 2012)

Any suggestions for bloodlines to be looking for??


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

rambo48 said:


> Im starting to get what your saying Raina, your saying a high field trial dog maybe too much dog due to the fact that Im only the weekend duck hunter and these dogs need to be year round workers? Let me know if that's what you mean? Thanks.


This is exactly what I was getting at. Although in *my *opinion, any "working" breed *should* have some sort of year round job, be it breed specific games put on by AKC, UKC, NAHRA, or other venue, or training type of exercises that stimulate the brain as well as the body. That said, unfortunately, many of the working breeds have been "dumbed down" by pet breeders, which is why many "want to have a hunting dog" buyers look for titles in the pedigree to help find a dog that still has the desire to get the job done.


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

If I had an NFC litter, I would not sell you a pup to be a gun dog.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Are you talking about a litter with the sire being a NFC or a pedigree that has one somewhere in there generations back. 
I doubt anyone would sell you a pup from an NFC sire unless you were a known player that was going to campaign said dog and in my opinion an NFC pup for a hunter is overkill.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Find you a pup with a few FC's in the background(most good MH's have that) and both parents are MH. You will probably not want for more dog, if its *TRAINED* properly.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Tom Watson said:


> If I had an NFC litter, I would not sell you a pup to be a gun dog.


Isn't that the truth. Same goes for "Just any FC-AFC".


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

My boy is from a FC/AFC sire x HRCH UH dam MH QAA litter. 

He is an awesome dog that I wanted to use to get my feet wet in dog games and take hunting. 
Dog games? Oh he is great for the dog games (except at the moment I'm 38 weeks pregnant and unable to play them haha).
Hunting? He is a LOT, I mean A LOT, of dog to just occasionally take hunting. You have to work hard every day or he would be a vocal fidgety mess...
In the house he is good, but very active, the average dog person wanting a nice house dog would be drive crazy by him... lucky for him we are a little crazy in this house too so he fit right in


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i took a bitch sired by a nafc on her first duck hunt yesterday. she was a pleasure to hunt with. we only had an hour and she picked up a "bama brace"(in case you are wondering, that's a grey duck and a ringer)

i took a dog sired by a nafc at 11 months old last week. he was a pleasure to hunt with too. he picked up 24 mallards!

my plans are that they both become more than "just hunting dogs". i took them hunting and they seemed very happy "just hunting".


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

My current hunting partner is a 9yr old MH out of a MH sire and a non titled bitch. Good blood lines all around and he's a fantastic hunting/HT dog. I've been hunting him since he was 11 months old and we've hunted in everything frrom beaver ponds to open salt water. He's great in the house and is a family dog. With all of that being said I believe the key to a do it all hunting dog is good training and tons of experience. The dog doesn't have to come from a NFC, NAFC, FC/AFC sire or bitch to be a good hunting dog.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

If you're using a professional to train the dog, that would be a good place to start. Ask the pro what bloodlines he recommends _for what *you *want the dog to do_. While titles in the pedigree are good indicators of trainability, don't discount the input of a knowledgeable person who's actually seen both parents work.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

List what you want out of your dog, what is important to you, hunting ability obviously, but do you also want pup to live in house with you, do you have kids, what are your working hours, what will be the arrangements for the pup when it comes home. Think of your own training ability and time to train, a good breeder will want to know details like this so they can decide if they might have a potential pup for you. Do you have a color or “type” preference? 

Make health clearances a part of your criteria. For Labs, assuming that’s your breed, parents should have hips/elbows OFA, eyes cleared per AVCO, EIC/CNM tested so you don’t get an affected puppy. Possibly PRA testing depending on the pedigree. For Labs, CCL ruptures are increasingly an issue. Ask if either parent had both repaired at a young age so you can make an informed decision.

Look over the litters in the classifieds that fall within the guidelines you have established for yourself and talk to some of the breeders. Some are more concerned with the home vs whether the dog is only going to get a shot at ribbons. Find out about the litter’s parents and grandparents, anything beyond that with nothing in between as far as pedigree is meaningless. 

Do they live in the house or are they full time kennel/truck dogs, do they run HRC or AKC HT, or FT? If not, how do you know they have any field ability or trainability unless you can go see the parents work? Ask about things like vocal problems, temperament issues, is there dog or people aggression and anything else that might concern you. 

I’ve seen some awfully high strung MH and some very nice, calm, controlled NFC/NAFC-sired dogs, and everything in between. Some of it is the owner, some of it is the dog. So, do your research. Don’t discount an NFC/NAFC as being too high, don’t assume every MH is equal or a good fit for you.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

The pro dog trainer is by far the bigger of the two costs so I would be more interested in background and references on that end than I would with pup's pedigree. 

You could get a great puppy out of untitled parents and a dud out of an NFC. Titles carry a lot of meaning and should steer your decision, but a pup, even at 5 grand is only 1/4 the cost of the overall project. 

An alternate approach would be to buy a pup from a reasonable breeding with parents you've seen perform, send it to a good pro, who will tell you in a matter of a few months if the pup will be what you want. If it doesn't work out, start over and you don't have 5 grand in a puppy that you're giving away.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

I would look for well-bred litters in your area so you can go and see the pups, see how they are being raised, meet the breeder. You can certainly buy a pup from anywhere in the country, and have it shipped to you at additional expense. As others have stated, pedigree doesn't guarantee you will get exactly what you want but might help you get a pup that is intelligent and trainable.

If you say where you live, I am sure other posters can steer you to reputable breeders in your area.


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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

I judge field trials in Montana and CA. The dogs that I would recomend for an amatuer looking for a hunting dog would be Shaq (Wood River's Franchise). He seems to throw a pup with a lot of ability but still level headed. Grady would be another one. I would look seriously at the Jazztime dogs. They are very popular with hunters in my area. Larry Calvert has a website jazztimelabs.com. Some of Larry's dogs also point if you are interested in that. I don't see a lot of the dogs from the east so I can't comment on them.


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## Kris C. (Jun 10, 2012)

I look at what you're asking like a new driver buying a Ferrari for his first car.
I would suggest find several breeders in your area and go look at the dogs you think your wanting.
Also you can go to a trainer that deals with both hunt trial and field trial dogs and just straight hunting house dogs.
That way you can compare the dogs and see what might be best for you.
Also you could look into maybe getting a started dog.

Kris


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## dtrkyman (Dec 8, 2012)

I will add this, my first and only Dog a lab female had basically nothing strong in her background, and despite me not having a clue as to what I was doing she was an outstanding hunter and retriever, well trained well not really I learned as I went and I know that dog taught me more than I taught her. It is all in what you expect from your dog i guess, she far exceeded my expectations and had me hunting birds just because of owning her.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree completely on the shaq pups. I have one that is nearing 2 and he is a dream dog. Anyone could handle him regardless of your experience. He has plenty of go but he wants to make you happy more than anything. Talented to boot, Shaq pups seem to make great amateur dogs. I had many people tell me this when I was in the market for a dog, it turned out to be true in my case.


Steve Babcock said:


> I judge field trials in Montana and CA. The dogs that I would recomend for an amatuer looking for a hunting dog would be Shaq (Wood River's Franchise). He seems to throw a pup with a lot of ability but still level headed. Grady would be another one. I would look seriously at the Jazztime dogs. They are very popular with hunters in my area. Larry Calvert has a website jazztimelabs.com. Some of Larry's dogs also point if you are interested in that. I don't see a lot of the dogs from the east so I can't comment on them.


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## Robert C (Feb 23, 2010)

Do what I did. First interview and choose your pro, then explain to them what you want, then have them help you choose your litter. You and the pro will be far happier. In my case we are both ecstatic !


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## mjolnir (Nov 21, 2004)

*If you can afford it and can get one ... go for it.*

I was taught that you get the best dog that you can afford. If it is an NFC pedigree and you are in a position to get a pup, enjoy it. The dog did not get an NFC because it was not capable of producing a duck dog.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Steve Babcock said:


> I judge field trials in Montana and CA. The dogs that I would recomend for an amatuer looking for a hunting dog would be Shaq (Wood River's Franchise). He seems to throw a pup with a lot of ability but still level headed. Grady would be another one. I would look seriously at the Jazztime dogs. They are very popular with hunters in my area. Larry Calvert has a website jazztimelabs.com. Some of Larry's dogs also point if you are interested in that. I don't see a lot of the dogs from the east so I can't comment on them.


West Coast I'd also add Pirate to this, he seems to produced tractable-intelligent amateur friendly dogs who like to please, I know a lot of hunters who love their Pirate pups. Still Sire NFC, FC-AFC, MH, HRCH etc. is only half of the equation, I'd be equally, maybe even more interested in the character and credentials of the dam, she contributes 1/2 the genetics and also influences their development for 7-8 weeks. I've passed on several higher-end litters for those with less letters but out of an excellent female and not been disappointed. 

Also certain trainers do better with particular lines of dogs, if you had a pro in mind, they usually know what they like to train, and they are usually thrilled to have input in picking pups, as they're the ones who have to work with them.


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## rambo48 (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses….. I am looking for a black male to hunt with as well as have trained for hunt test. My dog will live in the house as well. I have been mainly focused on a pup from a Grady litter but was also interested in Shaq litters but can't seem to find anything on Shaq. (websites) Thanks for all your help guys and gals.


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## jpws (Mar 26, 2012)

For what it's worth, i'll provide a different perspective. Perhaps it was luck, but I was in a similar boat than you in my younger years wanting noting more than an awesome dog to hunt dove, duck, pheasant, be my front seat companion, foot warmer, jetski partner, etc. I could have never guessed at that time what a FC, HRCH, etc stood for - all i knew at the time in 1994 was "Akc Registered". So, I searched local newspapers and decided on a $250 "newspaper lab" - and just so happened to know the grand-sire by accident. So, i bought the "Waterdog" book and read it cover to cover the first weekend I got the pup. We both learned together as we went. What I ended up with spoiled me and resulted in one helluva hunting dog (unlimited land/water marks or blinds, blood trail deer, tree a squirrel, pheasant quartering machine - with an occasional point) and an HRCH title (never failed a test entered)......not to mention her being the the highlight of many Friday afternoons when she'd visit the local retirement home to do her tricks for treats. Folks to this day still say, "remember that time we were hunting when Storm did this and that" - what a happy 14yrs 11 months we had together. Time together and experiencing different situations can go a long way.

I'd never try nor suggest the newspaper route again realizing now how lucky I was, so this time around I did a little homework and "bought up" chosing a pup with all grhrch/FC titles (with all the health clearances) throughout the 4 gen pedigree. Considering I dont have the time or patience now to train my new pup on my own as i did my first little jewel, she is 9 months old and has been at the trainer for 3 months now. My ultimate goal is to get my new pup to HRCH level which would be plenty enough hunting dog for me, and for her to be a happy indoor child's pet as well. We'll see.....good luck with your choice.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

rambo48 said:


> Thanks for all the responses….. I am looking for a black male to hunt with as well as have trained for hunt test. My dog will live in the house as well. I have been mainly focused on a pup from a Grady litter but was also interested in Shaq litters but can't seem to find anything on Shaq. (websites) Thanks for all your help guys and gals.


I've had my hands on 4 Grady pups and have seen multiple offspring of his running/training. I like them. Alot. I think you have a pretty good shot at a solid HT/meat dog and family companion that can live in the house as well, if you pay attention to the dam's side. There's normally a pretty good selection of Grady litters around.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

All the above are good recommendations but I agree with Steve, the Shaq, Grady, and Jazztime lines are great for hunting and advanced HT and FT work. I live with several from Jazztime lines and they are all great in the blind, hunting upland, hunt test, and minor stakes in FT (don't have the time or resources for the Majors). We like these lines so much we have two litters coming end of January one is a (Grady son QAA x Chance (Jazztime)Daughter MH) and a (FC AFC Trip (Jazztime) x (Lean Mac x Jazztime) MH Dam), see avitar. I also think talking to your pro and looking locally is great advice.


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## rambo48 (Dec 7, 2012)

jpws said:


> For what it's worth, i'll provide a different perspective. Perhaps it was luck, but I was in a similar boat than you in my younger years wanting noting more than an awesome dog to hunt dove, duck, pheasant, be my front seat companion, foot warmer, jetski partner, etc. I could have never guessed at that time what a FC, HRCH, etc stood for - all i knew at the time in 1994 was "Akc Registered". So, I searched local newspapers and decided on a $250 "newspaper lab" - and just so happened to know the grand-sire by accident. So, i bought the "Waterdog" book and read it cover to cover the first weekend I got the pup. We both learned together as we went. What I ended up with spoiled me and resulted in one helluva hunting dog (unlimited land/water marks or blinds, blood trail deer, tree a squirrel, pheasant quartering machine - with an occasional point) and an HRCH title (never failed a test entered)......not to mention her being the the highlight of many Friday afternoons when she'd visit the local retirement home to do her tricks for treats. Folks to this day still say, "remember that time we were hunting when Storm did this and that" - what a happy 14yrs 11 months we had together. Time together and experiencing different situations can go a long way.
> 
> I'd never try nor suggest the newspaper route again realizing now how lucky I was, so this time around I did a little homework and "bought up" chosing a pup with all grhrch/FC titles (with all the health clearances) throughout the 4 gen pedigree. Considering I dont have the time or patience now to train my new pup on my own as i did my first little jewel, she is 9 months old and has been at the trainer for 3 months now. My ultimate goal is to get my new pup to HRCH level which would be plenty enough hunting dog for me, and for her to be a happy indoor child's pet as well. We'll see.....good luck with your choice.


Thanks a lot for your story… I wish my lab was that case!! That's why I am doing the extensive research to make sure my next dog isn't the newspaper dog. I don't doubt it isn't possible to get a once in a lifetime dog like your story but I don't think that is a normal and just a rarity. I think your story is just like mine though because I am wanting exactly what you wanted!!  I think I am going to go with a Grady pup!!


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## tripsteer1 (Feb 25, 2011)

My blm just turned 2 and his mom and dad both hold FC and AFC titles. He is a great pheasant and duck dog. He certainly has alot of drive but has not presented me with any problems. I am going to enter some competitions with him in 2013 and feel confident he will do well there too. He is great in the house,and good around my horses,and other critters. Glad I have him....


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## Steve Hamel (Mar 1, 2004)

One other thing to consider. If you plan on putting the dog in extremely cold water, look at the patents coats. We owned one female years ago that really suffered in the late season cold water, even with a vest. Her coat was "thin" and cold water for her was a bitch.

Steve


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Rainmaker said:


> I've had my hands on 4 Grady pups and have seen multiple offspring of his running/training. I like them. Alot. I think you have a pretty good shot at a solid HT/meat dog and family companion that can live in the house as well, if you pay attention to the dam's side. There's normally a pretty good selection of Grady litters around.


Here's a little tidbit to add to this: I have seen a Grady x MH(Not quite QAA) litter that 2 of the 7 will be SUPER high power FT dogs and the other 5 will being split between fair to good HT dogs. My point being is this: those 2 would have been a challenge(not impossible) for a novice and maybe not a good fit. This is where the breeder comes in because, all of these pups were placed in the appropriate homes(luckily). My point being, find a good/knowledgeable breeder and let them help you. It seems like letting the car dealer pick your car for you, but most good dog people/breeders love these dogs more than life. Ask and I bet you'll have a list of recommended people!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Duckquilizer said:


> Here's a little tidbit to add to this: I have seen a Grady x MH(Not quite QAA) litter that 2 of the 7 will be SUPER high power FT dogs and the other 5 will being split between fair to good HT dogs. My point being is this: those 2 would have been a challenge(not impossible) for a novice and maybe not a good fit. This is where the breeder comes in because, all of these pups were placed in the appropriate homes(luckily). My point being, find a good/knowledgeable breeder and let them help you. It seems like letting the car dealer pick your car for you, but most good dog people/breeders love these dogs more than life. Ask and I bet you'll have a list of recommended people!


Which is what I told him in my first post, to question the breeders of different litters to get a good fit. He mentioned Grady, I added my experience with Grady offspring. You can get a hyper monster or a dud from any breeding and I don't believe you can tell everything at 7-8 weeks either, but at least one can do their best to narrow the odds a bit, by choosing stable parents, pedigree and a breeder that spends time with the pups to give input when it comes to choosing.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> I don't believe you can tell everything at 7-8 weeks either.


Agreed, I am not certain that we can tell anything meaningful other than perhaps identify the extremes at both ends of the personality/intelligence spectrum and even that is not 100% reproducible. Observation by the breeder over the 7-8 week period carries much more weight than that of the occasional visitor who shows up every week or two and watches the litter for 30 minutes.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I've had a Shaq pup and now have a Grady pup. Both are/were very smart. My Shaq pup got his MH on his 2nd birthday and the short time he was in this world he did a great job in the duck blind. He was a hell bent for leqather type dog and wouldn't let anything get in his way when it came time to work. HE didn't wuite have a kill switch though. Took a bit for him to calm down in the house. My Grady pup is only 12 months old and easily as smart if not more so. The main difference between both of them is that my Grady pup seems to have more control of all that desire and energy. He is really focused and soaks up each days work and asks for more. I think you could flip a coin and be happy with most any pup out of either sire.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Robert C said:


> Do what I did. First interview and choose your pro, then explain to them what you want, then have them help you choose your litter. You and the pro will be far happier. In my case we are both ecstatic !


Read this. Read it again. Read it again. This is the best advice you've gotten on this thread. If all my clients did this, my job would be so easy and many of my clients would be much better off.


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

had a litter out of eba first to breed after he won all pups had a turn off switch and made wonderful huntingdogs. Now I have a six month old with 5 out of 6 parents and grandparents are NFC's still looking for that turn off switch have, to be mighty tired or hungry quite a challenge, but love it.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

All this talk about Shaq pup? Grady pup? ... Don't forget the DAM and her pedigree. She brings at least 50% to the table. Some think she brings more because she nurtures and has an influence on her puppies from birth until 7-8 weeks of age. 

The sire does not produce puppies all by himself and usually the sire is never around to nurture or provide any first-hand influence on personality. His job was done 2 months before birth. 

Helen


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

helencalif said:


> All this talk about Shaq pup? Grady pup? ... Don't forget the DAM and her pedigree. She brings at least 50% to the table. Some think she brings more because she nurtures and has an influence on her puppies from birth until 7-8 weeks of age.
> 
> The sire does not produce puppies all by himself and usually the sire is never around to nurture or provide any first-hand influence on personality. His job was done 2 months before birth.
> 
> Helen


Helen: you bring up a great point that is often overlooked and forgotten....Clint's first two dogs (Judge, Rex) were sired by FC AFC Sandy of Sourdough, and NAFC FC Ray's Rascal...BUT they both came from the same dam...an untitled gal named Mark's Koko Lady, she was a real nice bitch owned by a chain smoking man who got so nervous at FT that he would either make some error or get Koko wound up too...but she was smart,and threw intelligent good looking pups...Sandy and Rascal were great dogs, but Koko gave her son's a ton of talent too


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

The dam has been mentioned in several posts. I'd think that goes along as well, with finding the breeder, as they are the majority of the time the bitch owner, so of course that's going to play into the decision. But, easier sometimes, particularly for a novice, to decide upon a sire or pedigree one would like and then seeing what's available for litters. FTers have the opportunity to see dogs running on a regular basis, but for the average person, that's just not in their grasp and they have to start somewhere, narrowing it down by stud for their search is one way of doing it. Doesn't mean the bitch isn't going to be in the equation.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

rambo48 said:


> Any suggestions for bloodlines to be looking for??


How about letting your pro pick a litter for you.


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

kjrice said:


> How about letting your pro pick a litter for you.


Heh, heh, heh, heh...posting a self-portrait for yer avatar these days???? As Bubba sez..."Rice, you just ain't right".

UB


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

helencalif said:


> All this talk about Shaq pup? Grady pup? ... Don't forget the DAM and her pedigree. She brings at least 50% to the table. Some think she brings more because she nurtures and has an influence on her puppies from birth until 7-8 weeks of age.
> 
> The sire does not produce puppies all by himself and usually the sire is never around to nurture or provide any first-hand influence on personality. His job was done 2 months before birth.
> 
> Helen


Dang it where is that stinking LIKE button????


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## Mary Bizub (Jul 23, 2005)

sent you a PM


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Uncle Bill said:


> Heh, heh, heh, heh...posting a self-portrait for yer avatar these days???? As Bubba sez..."Rice, you just ain't right".
> 
> UB


Sez who?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Robert C said:


> Do what I did. First interview and choose your pro, then explain to them what you want, then have them help you choose your litter. You and the pro will be far happier. In my case we are both ecstatic !


Yes we ARE!!!! You're a smart guy Robert!!! 

Angie


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## windwalkers swan song (Oct 25, 2008)

windwalkers swan song said:


> had a litter out of eba first to breed after he won all pups had a turn off switch and made wonderful huntingdogs. Now I have a six month old with 5 out of 6 parents and grandparents are NFC's still looking for that turn off switch have, to be mighty tired or hungry quite a challenge, but love it.


 Sy's mama is out of chopper only one not titled yet have all bases covered don't you think leaving with trainer next week losing my duck dynasty watching buddy.


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