# What to do?



## gtail (Jan 26, 2010)

*Gun shy? What to do?*

I have been lurking for quite some time now and I have to say, what a great site. I have quite a situation and I need a little advise. I purchased a started 2 yr old BLM dog from a pro trainer on this site approx. 10 months ago. I agreed to pay him a couple of extra months of training so that I could pick him up on a trip up north. I picked up this dog the first weekend in May of 2009 and brought him home. I was very excited with my purchase because this would be the highest bread dog I have ever owned. After getting the dog home I took him to a local trainer to finish him for the season. (This trainer had been in touch with the pro who I bought the dog from before the purchase). Long story short, 10 months later I have a dog that has hunted a whole season and has picked up a total of 10 birds, only on blind retrieves after the hunt. As soon as the guns come out of the gun cases the dog rolls up in a ball and starts to shake. After the hunt is over he comes alive again. I am trying to figure out what to do. Who is responsible for this? I have a lot of money tied up in this dog, I spent an entire hunting season frustrated with the situation, and most importantly a 2 1/2 year old son who is attached to the dog. Thanks for the help!!


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## Shelby (Jul 20, 2009)

gtail said:


> I have been lurking for quite some time now and I have to say, what a great site. I have quite a situation and I need a little advise. I purchased a started 2 yr old BLM dog from a pro trainer on this site approx. 10 months ago. I agreed to pay him a couple of extra months of training so that I could pick him up on a trip up north. I picked up this dog the first weekend in May of 2009 and brought him home. I was very excited with my purchase because this would be the highest bread dog I have ever owned. After getting the dog home I took him to a local trainer to finish him for the season. (This trainer had been in touch with the pro who I bought the dog from before the purchase). Long story short, 10 months later I have a dog that has hunted a whole season and has picked up a total of 10 birds, only on blind retrieves after the hunt. As soon as the guns come out of the gun cases the dog rolls up in a ball and starts to shake. After the hunt is over he comes alive again. I am trying to figure out what to do. Who is responsible for this? I have a lot of money tied up in this dog, I spent an entire hunting season frustrated with the situation, and most importantly a 2 1/2 year old son who is attached to the dog. Thanks for the help!!







I would think he could be gun broke


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## jason318 (Jan 22, 2010)

try having someone else help you with shooting at a long distance from you and the dog while you throw fun bumpers. Keep it fun and gradually move into it. Watch the dog and they will let you know if the gun is crowding them. Good Luck though cause that is usually in the first few months that is addressed in.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

He could be gun shy, or he could just be associating the guns with some other traumatic experience he had. I cant see a pro trained dog suddenly becoming gun shy for no reason. Then again anything is possible.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

I've had this happen before with dogs I've trained (when client took them hunting before I had them ready)... I almost never shoot over my dogs when I train. But they do need to be acclimated to being shot over when they're getting ready for their first hunts. 

There's a possibility -- or high likelihood -- that your dog had not been shot over much or at all... I'm 99% sure most field trial trainers don't shoot over their dogs unless they've hunted. If your dog had not hunted before and his first experience was in a new place, with a new person and gunfire beside him, that could be the problem.

I'd back up and re-acclimate him to the gun, shooting first farther away and gradually moving closer and closer. Make it all happy and fun... 

I don't think you'll have a problem. But I hope you would have talked to both your pros long before the end of hunting season, too!! What did they have to say?

-K


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## carolinagold (Jan 19, 2003)

Gtail,


you have made one post on this site and it talks about what critisism you have involving this particular dog. If you have a problem involving the owner contact chris atkinson he is straight up but not responsible for every thing that happens on this site. 

Bob Smith
843-862-0272
call me if you need advice about how to handle this transaction
________
FXV-II


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## gtail (Jan 26, 2010)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I've had this happen before with dogs I've trained (when client took them hunting before I had them ready)... I almost never shoot over my dogs when I train. But they do need to be acclimated to being shot over when they're getting ready for their first hunts.
> 
> There's a possibility -- or high likelihood -- that your dog had not been shot over much or at all... I'm 99% sure most field trial trainers don't shoot over their dogs unless they've hunted. If your dog had not hunted before and his first experience was in a new place, with a new person and gunfire beside him, that could be the problem.
> 
> ...


Kristie, I think you hit the nail on the head. I am in the marine and hunting business, and I bring several people hunting with me. Opening morning we had 3 guns shooting, and this is where I first saw this. I talked to the trainers after that morning and they said I should not have hunted him with that many people. Both trainers know the business I'm in and what the dog would be up against and never told me this ahead of time. My local trainer worked with the dog for about three weeks during the season shooting over him while throwing marks (starting out fun). I called the pro trainer who I bought the dog from yesterday and asked him to sell the dog for me. He asked how much I wanted for the dog and I said I wanted what I paid for him, his response was "I can't sell a gun shy dog for that price". Should this trainer have know what level this dog was at when I picked the dog up at 2 yrs. old? I feel as though he may have known something wasn't right when I picked him up.


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## gtail (Jan 26, 2010)

carolinagold said:


> Gtail,
> 
> 
> you have made one post on this site and it talks about what critisism you have involving this particular dog. If you have a problem involving the owner contact chris atkinson he is straight up but not responsible for every thing that happens on this site.
> ...


Bob,
Thanks for the help bud. I am in the hunting/marine business and know how we treat our customers with warranty and customer service (We put our customers first). What is the norm in the dog training world? Should I have a guaranty with this dog?


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## jason318 (Jan 22, 2010)

gtail said:


> Bob,
> Thanks for the help bud. I am in the hunting/marine business and know how we treat our customers with warranty and customer service (We put our customers first). What is the norm in the dog training world? Should I have a guaranty with this dog?


did you watch the pro work and handle the dog in all of it's abilities? Usually if someone goes and buys a "trained retreiver" they will watch him/she for a couple of days before commiting. Sad to say but some of the best lessons learned are the bought ones... Good luck.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

gtail said:


> Imost importantly a 2 1/2 year old son who is attached to the dog. Thanks for the help!!


They are called man's best friend for a reason.Easy to do and all the more reason I'd spend some time trying to fix this problem (might even turn out to be an easy fix...especially if you follow Kristie's advice).



gtail said:


> He asked how much I wanted for the dog and I said I wanted what I paid for him, his response was "I can't sell a gun shy dog for that price".


That sorta tells me he is trying to help you out.


jason318 said:


> Sad to say but some of the best lessons learned are the bought ones... Good luck.


I think they call that paying tuition to Life University.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Check your pm.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

gtail said:


> (snip)He asked how much I wanted for the dog and I said I wanted what I paid for him, his response was "I can't sell a gun shy dog for that price". Should this trainer have know what level this dog was at when I picked the dog up at 2 yrs. old? I feel as though he may have known something wasn't right when I picked him up.


This is one reason why I hate the business of buying and selling started dogs.

How much did YOU work with the dog prior to taking him hunting? How much time had you personally spent with the dog?

I don't know you or the trainers you worked with, but clearly you were happy with the dog's performance and therefore purchased him. 

So here's how I feel being on the outside looking in SIMPLY from what you posted... 

It would SEEM to me that you bought a dog simply for the dog's abilities and forgetting it was actually a dog. Your FIRST hunting experience with it was a big, noisy, active hunt. YES, the dog should be able to handle it simply given his training. But the dog doesn't know you, has been shifted around to however many different trainers and places over the last "x" weeks and months... And maybe that was the first time you ever worked the dog??

For me, as a trainer/breeder, etc. I lose respect when people quit so quickly on a dog. You liked the dog when you purchased him. Even a great dog that WAS used to it should have been acclimated to you and hunting with you. He should have been "warmed up" over a few weeks to a month, getting used to how you hunt and just used to you personally.

It doesn't seem like you gave him that opportunity. It seems to me like you are looking at him as a machine and not the animal he is. Sure, you can say back and he'll run a blind, but he is still an animal that needs acclimation. 

And the fact that you'll just toss him back after quite possibly creating the problem bothers me.

Just being honest. This is all based on what I got from your posts, which may be wrong.

Also, as far as your transaction, you should have a signed contract that would indicate the course of action in the event you are not happy with the dog. It sounds like you don't have that? Because if you did, it would clearly outline exactly what steps should be taken, if any, and exactly what the terms of any sort of guarantee would be. C'mon now, you're a businessman, please don't tell me you didn't sign a contract? 

I'm typing this with all due respect and I hope some of it makes sense. 

With training, a gunshy dog can be fixed esp if it has been in full-time training for most of its life.

Sincerely,
Kristie


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

gtail,

Count me among those who hope you do not give up on this dog so quickly/easily. You already said your kid is attached to him.

You would do well to listen to Kristie. She knows what she is talking about.

Good luck to you and, more importantly, your dog.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

"An FT trainer doesn't do much gun fire over the dogs during training."

Wouldn't it be the trainers job to alter the training method to meet the needs of the client? 

I also agree with Kristie's post. You can't give up on a dog that easy!


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I have a dog where I am slowly progressing his being used to being shot over. One gun, then two, plan to introduce more later when given the opportunity. I think the statement of only getting 10 birds after the shooting is over, geeze, that has me confused? I would think if I noticed my dog cowering to shot, I would back up in training. The way the OP post is written it sounds like the dog went through a season of confusion before addressing the problem?

You state:
"I have a dog that has hunted a whole season and has picked up a total of 10 birds, only on blind retrieves after the hunt. As soon as the guns come out of the gun cases the dog rolls up in a ball and starts to shake"

Hopefully you can work with him and get it fixed, but I think your takeaway from this is next time you see your dog having a problem, find a way to help him resolve the problem and avoid if at all possible promoting a negative behavior that could haunt you the rest of his life.

I am no expert and have no credentials so it is just an opinion, huntings not worth putting your dog through that, train your dog first, hunt later! JMHO!


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

You say "Started 2 Y.O. dog". What was the dog advertised to do? You say "A lot of money". How much is a lot?

If it was around $2,000.00-$2500.00 and the pro told me he would hunt, I would say you have a complaint. What was the dog SUPPOSED to do? How was it represented?

We don't have enough information to know what the dealio is.

You might be getting screwed....you might have ruined a good started dog. No one can say but you and the guy you bought him from.

I think he can be fixed too. If you want to give him away shoot me a P.M. I'll take a run at it.


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

Thanks very much for all the help and info. Let me give ya'll a little more history. I made an agreement to pay $2000 for the dog at a started level. He was ff, cc, obedience, forced to the pile, etc, everything except hand signals. He was just starting swim by in the water due to the water being frozen. I did not spend very much time with the dog when I picked him up because I am an honest person, and I hope I can trust a man's word. After I brought him home, he spent two months at home getting to know me and my family. I then sent him to a trainer that is approx. 1 mile from my place of business. I would check up on the dog often. I also brought the dog home a couple of times during his training to hang out with the family. I also don't want ya'll to think that I just gave up on the dog on his first day out, the trainer and myself have spent a lot of time working with the dog trying to fix this problem. I even spent an entire hunt kneeling down in the grass with the dog while my buds hunted trying to get the dog to mark the flying birds. When in the blind, the dog does not look around for birds. Last Saturday he actually was scratching the floor of the boat making his bed before we started hunting. I have hunted him one on one, with two people, with three people and with four people, with the same results. We also have hunted him several times with a seasoned dog and that didn't help. Thanks again.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

What does he act like when you *aren't* hunting? Does he like birds? Does he like to retrieve? Water attitude? 

If there is something he loves, then you can cure the gun problem in time (probably). Nothing is for sure.

What kind of pedigree does this dog have?

Was he a washout? or were you buying a premium started dog? If he was supposed to be a good started dog for hunting, I would have a problem. It kind of sounds like he was being trained as a hunt test/ field trial dog.

It is starting to sound like an expensive lesson. research research research.

I bought a dog off of here and I couldn't be happier with him. That said, there are only a handful of people on here I would buy a dog from. I know who I'm calling when I am ready for another, it is someone on this board.
I hope it works out for you and the dog.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

There ARE pros out there that use guns as a 'heeing stick'..and also I have seen a cattle prod that was attached to a 'gun shaped' piece of plywood. So there are other 'ways' to make a gunshy dog.

not saying this is what happened with your dog - because honestly there is no way of knowing why your dog is gun shy..if he cowers to the noise of the gun, then I'd say that the noise was the factor.......

as for getting him to watch birds coming in. I think that first you have to get the gun shyness issue resolved...once that is done, then you can work on throwing live flyers from hidden locations for him...so that he learns to watch for them....

Juli

just some other insight.

I think that curing gun shyness is possible, just have to be fair and willing to go the extra mile.

Juli


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

He acts find around the house and around the camp, just like ant other dog I have ever had. About a month ago when I brought him back to the trainer we let a live pigeon out of the cage and threw it on the ground to play with, he didn't attack it, didn't go after it, we had to command him to pick it up. I found this to be very disturbing.

His pedigree is high. His dad is Meet Joe Black, and his mother has Lean Mac on her side also. I have contacted people who have littler mates to this dog to see if maybe this is the way these dogs are, and they all said they are completely satisfied and one of the easiest dogs to train.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

pin-teal said:


> He acts find around the house and around the camp, just like ant other dog I have ever had. About a month ago when I brought him back to the trainer we let a live pigeon out of the cage and threw it on the ground to play with, he didn't attack it, didn't go after it, we had to command him to pick it up. I found this to be very disturbing.
> 
> His pedigree is high. His dad is Meet Joe Black, and his mother has Lean Mac on her side also. I have contacted people who have littler mates to this dog to see if maybe this is the way these dogs are, and they all said they are completely satisfied and one of the easiest dogs to train.


Obviously I wasn't there and I don't know how this was done, but if I did the same with my dog he would probably assume that he was supposed to be steady and I would have had to release him by name to pick up the pigeon. Having said that, he would have been staring intensely at the bird, ears up, etc. If I pick up a retrieving object (bumper, bird, etc.) my dog generally sits and assumes that he he is supposed to sit until released...just a conditioned response. Who knows, your dog may have even been "proofed" on steady by allowing pigeons to run around in front of him.

If the dog truly doesn't like birds then that is a big problem. Whatever the problem, I tend to think it was man made and not this dog's fault.


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

We introduced the pigeon in a fun way, and the dog actually looked to be a little scared of the bird. Maybe not scared, but confused. I agree that I do believe the problem was man made.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Opening morning we had 3 guns shooting, and this is where I first saw this. I talked to the trainers after that morning and they said I should not have hunted him with that many people


If this is the first time the dog was hunted with you, and you went out with multiple guns in a hunting party, you have to take responsibility for what happened. You took it for granted it would fine and it wasn't. A little bit of common sense would have prevented this from happening, and I've heard this scenario before. Did you convey to both the trainers this is what you you were going to do opening day so they could have prepared the dog? I would suspect the dog is just turned off and traumatized. The dog must have been birdy before this incident because neither of the pros thought he had a problem and the Joe Black pups I've had have been natural hunters but the buyers take it slowly. You should have bought a dog that had a season under his belt rather than expecting a started dog to survive opening day with all that firing and you would have probably had to pay more. Hopefully someone can rehab the dog.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

PackLeader said:


> "An FT trainer doesn't do much gun fire over the dogs during training."
> 
> Wouldn't it be the trainers job to alter the training method to meet the needs of the client?
> (snip)


No, the dog is being sold as he is. If the trainer and the owner work out something for the trainer to do anything specific as requested by the client, that's different. Some of this stuff may or may not come up in conversation... There's a lot to it. It's probably not anyone in particular's "fault". Our retriever training contract is 5 pages long and based on all kinds of situations so there are "no surprises" -- things like "hey, do you realize you could go out and by a started dog for less money that you might pay to get your dog to the same point in training"... That way nobody can say "why didn't you TELL ME that I could have bought a dog for $2500 instead of spending $3000 with you?? I actually had someone say that about 10 yrs ago -- I looked at him like he was crazy...

The bottom line is that the dog needs some help and shouldn't be a lost cause...

-K


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

pin-teal said:


> We introduced the pigeon in a fun way, and the dog actually looked to be a little scared of the bird. Maybe not scared, but confused. I agree that I do believe the problem was man made.


Pin, I think bedding down is one of the biggest avoidance behaviors a dog can do. For what ever reason this dog has serious anxiety issues. I think even a behaviorist would have his hand full here. The only thing more serious IMO is a dog that rolls over and pees on himself. 

Getting a dog past this behavior is a long and tedious process because you cant correct or praise a dog in that state of mind. 

I think the best way for him is to get over it is by watching other well trained dogs working and having fun. If that doesn't interest him then 
my guess is this dog will never be the dog you need him to be. 

I would consider getting another dog it's going to be awhile. 

You never know he might just snap out of it later in life and you will have two good dogs. 

That is my "unqualified" $0.2


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## Laura Heyden (Aug 14, 2009)

Okay, I am confused (which is my normal state) but are we talking two different dogs with two different problems? One gun shy the other doesn't like birds, or is it the same dog? I am interested in all the advice, so far there has been alot of good stuff on here, never know when it might be needed, however I got lost somewhere between page one and two.


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> If this is the first time the dog was hunted with you, and you went out with multiple guns in a hunting party, you have to take responsibility for what happened. You took it for granted it would fine and it wasn't. A little bit of common sense would have prevented this from happening, and I've heard this scenario before. Did you convey to both the trainers this is what you you were going to do opening day so they could have prepared the dog? I would suspect the dog is just turned off and traumatized. The dog must have been birdy before this incident because neither of the pros thought he had a problem and the Joe Black pups I've had have been natural hunters but the buyers take it slowly. You should have bought a dog that had a season under his belt rather than expecting a started dog to survive opening day with all that firing and you would have probably had to pay more. Hopefully someone can rehab the dog.


Both the trainers knew what I was looking for in a dog. I told them what the hunting scenario was. I was never told not to hunt him under 3 guns. If I would have known this, it would have never happened. I had to worry about my last dog breaking his first time out, not being scared. I really didn't know this. 

Also this dog stayed at the second trainer for a total of 5 months. 4 months at $500 and a free month because when I went to pick him up after the fourth month, the dog would not run cold blinds. I have over $4000 invested in this dog. I truly thought that after the dog spending 5 months at the second trainer to get finished, he would be ready to go.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Kristie Wilder said:


> No, the dog is being sold as he is. If the trainer and the owner work out something for the trainer to do anything specific as requested by the client, that's different. Some of this stuff may or may not come up in conversation... There's a lot to it. It's probably not anyone in particular's "fault". Our retriever training contract is 5 pages long and based on all kinds of situations so there are "no surprises" -- things like "hey, do you realize you could go out and by a started dog for less money that you might pay to get your dog to the same point in training"... That way nobody can say "why didn't you TELL ME that I could have bought a dog for $2500 instead of spending $3000 with you?? I actually had someone say that about 10 yrs ago -- I looked at him like he was crazy...
> 
> -K


If you buy a started dog and don't finish it before hunting that is your own fault. If the trainers said the dog is ready to hunt that's another matter.


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> Pin, I think bedding down is one of the biggest avoidance behaviors a dog can do. For what ever reason this dog has serious anxiety issues. I think even a behaviorist would have his hand full here. The only thing more serious IMO is a dog that rolls over and pees on himself.
> 
> Getting a dog past this behavior is a long and tedious process because you cant correct or praise a dog in that state of mind.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head with the anxiety issues. Actually opening morning he did pee himself. Second time out we hunted him with a seasoned dog to try to make it fun. It is really sad to see this sweet dog ball up and be scared out of his mind. My question is should a pro trainer be able to tell by the age of 2 years old that a dog can not take pressure, or that the dog may have anxiety issues.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

pin-teal said:


> You hit the nail on the head with the anxiety issues. Actually opening morning he did pee himself. Second time out we hunted him with a seasoned dog to try to make it fun. It is really sad to see this sweet dog ball up and be scared out of his mind. My question is should a pro trainer be able to tell by the age of 2 years old that a dog can not take pressure, or that the dog may have anxiety issues.



If they know how to "read a dog".. Absolutely they should have seen this in the early stages of training a long looong time ago.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Pin Teal, I am not a pro dog trainer and I've only trained two hunting dogs / hunt test dogs, so I don't have a ton of experience, but I wouldn't give up on this dog yet. I would get creative and try a multi-pronged approach. I would keep the dog at home and really spend time making him my buddy.

If the dog is scared or becomes nervous simply at the sight of a shotgun, I would get my shotgun and stand it in the corner next to his food bowl (while he is looking) right before I put food in his bowl at every feeding. After he was finished eating I would remove the shotgun. I also might just sit and pet him with the shotgun across my lap, etc. Before long at least the sight of the shotgun would have a positive association rather than negative. Eventually as the dog gets more and more comfortable you could sit with him and work the action on the gun while he is eating or while you pet him with the other hand. I would also buy the CD on curing gun shy dogs and play that while he eats and whatever else is suggested in the instructions with the CD. I wouldn't do serious training, but would throw fun bumpers if he seems to enjoy that. Does he enjoy that? If he enjoys that you can throw simple singles. When doing fun bumpers or simple retrieves I would look for any opportunity to praise and encourage him. If I pick up a bumper and swing it around by the cord and his ears perk up or he shows other interest I would praise and encourage him. If that goes well I would move back to dead ducks and eventually the live pigeon scenario. As the fear of the shotgun subsided I would move to re-introduce gunfire. Have someone stand 100 yards or more away and fire one shot on your signal (muzzle pointed away at first to lessen the noise) and I would be kneeling next to the dog to give him confidence/security. If his ears perk up at the sound I would praise that. Obviously you cannot praise fear or anxiety. If he is loving bumpers or birds at that point I would throw a bird by hand from his side when the distant shot is fired. Obviously if this goes well you move the gunner gradually closer. You have from now until next season to get this done, so don't rush it.

Another thing to consider is that a dog who hasn't been hunting isn't likely to really be prepared to hunt even if he is an accomplished hunt test dog. In training/testing/trialing the birds do not fly in from above and from all directions. Dogs in training/testing/trialing do not sit and watch the sky. They look out on the horizon and expect to see birds go up and then come down. They don't scan the sky the way a hunting dog should until they learn it from actual hunting. Some dogs may pick it up so quickly that you don't realize there is a transition, but there is. If the dog picked it up early it might be because he got lucky and on his first hunt a big group of mallards circled multiple times as they slowly descended and they were quacking the whole time. Bottom line, sitting in a hunting blind and scanning the sky for birds is a learned behavior and must be learned while hunting or otherwise watching wild birds IMO. A scared/anxious dog is not likely to exhibit this behavior.

I really hope you can stick by this dog and bring him around. I really think he deserves the chance.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

What was the dog like at the time you purchased him? What was the dog like the times you went to visit and participate in his training? 

CERTAINLY, you wouldn't have purchased a dog that behaved the way you're now describing he does. 

So there are two options -- you DID buy him with the behavior issues, and therefore got what you bought. 

OR, he was fine at the trainers, you liked what you saw, bought him, and then either: a) he's had a rough transition home or b) you haven't done your job acclimating him.

So which is it?? You can agree with the behavior thing, being curled up in a ball, etc. But you wouldn't have invested $4000 in a dog like that, right? So when did you first see this behavior??

-K


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

pin-teal said:


> My question is should a pro trainer be able to tell by the age of 2 years old that a dog can not take pressure, or that the dog may have anxiety issues.


If this is all related to gun fire and the way you guys opened up over him on that first morning, maybe not IMO. If for instance the original trainer was an AKC HT or FT trainer they may have never fired a gun over this dog's head (an HRC HT trainer would have certainly done so). That isn't really part of the job description of an AKC HT or FT dog although they would certainly have had a lot of exposure to gun fire of some sort and at some distance. A lot of the rounds used in training are not nearly as loud as real shotgun blasts also and they would generally occur when the dog was expecting it. In other words the pro takes the dog out of the truck, walks him to the line, sits him facing a gunner/winger/gun station and the dog knows there will be a distant "pop" and a bird will be thrown - no surprise. Most of the shots fired around the dog were likely in the field and from either a winger with a primer in it or a pistol with .22 blanks or primers. None of these things produce the "boom" of a shotgun. You would think that the pro would have shot some fliers and this would involve a shotgun, but maybe only at a considerable distance.

Whether the trainers knew of the problem is really a moot point unless you are going to sue one of them. The question is: what are you going to do now?


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## jshea (Apr 30, 2008)

Pin-tail Check PM


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

Guys and gals, thanks for all of the help. It is my personal opinion that the dog was not shot over, and that he wasn't introduced to birds as much as he should have been. I also can't understand how two trainers who are supposed to know dogs, never saw that this dog had a problem. I really hope that everyone is learning something from this. I told both of these trainers that I wanted a meat dog, not a ft or ht dog, just a dog to pick up the 400+ birds killed out of my blind. In my business I turn down sales if I don't think my product will work for the customer, I just hope that the trainer would of done the same if he did know there was a problem.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Gtail/pin-teal-
Man, I feel bad for your dog.
Got the crap scared out of it opening day, then kept being brought back for more.
If you had spent $2000+ on a shotgun you would have gone to the skeet range to get good with it before season.
If you had a custom built duck call you would have practiced every day to get it right before season.
A dog is not a toaster oven friend. Good luck with your next dog.

.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

If I spent $2000 on shotgun I would assume when I pull the trigger a bullet is going to come out the end.

Good luck on your next dog Pin.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I have a Meet Joe Black pup. I also have three more dogs from different lines, two of them about the same age (15-18 months) and one is a 3 year old. The Joe Black pup is a bit anxious. He is more sensitive to a raised voice; he is always moving, even when eating he does laps around the food bowl between bites; laying on his back appears to make him nervous or insecure.

He is different just as all dogs are but him, even more so. With that said, he has progressed nicely in training. He learns new things quickly, marks well, and runs blinds with confidence. I don't have a lot of experience training (he's my first without a pro) or hunting but I would not try to make my Joe Black pup sit in a hunting blind. At least not at this point.

Meet Joe Black and Lean Mac are field trial dogs not meat dogs. I know people hunt with FT dogs but if all you wanted was a meat dog, then why waste the FT lines? And $2k for a started FT dog with any promise at all is cheap.

I don't feel sorry for you but I do for your dog. Please give him to a good home and retrieve your own ducks.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Ken nailed it. I really feel sorry for the poor dog because you still didn't learn a thing that you created the problem and not the dog. You failed to communicate to the trainers what you _really_ expected, and that is not a started dog, but a finished dog that knew how to hunt and that had been exposed to a hunting party firing guns-big difference.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> If I spent $2000 on shotgun I would assume when I pull the trigger a bullet is going to come out the end.
> 
> Good luck on your next dog Pin.


Yea Pack, but I would sight it in before I went hunting!


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

captainjack said:


> The Joe Black pup is a bit anxious. He is more sensitive to a raised voice; he is always moving, even when eating he does laps around the food bowl between bites; laying on his back appears to make him nervous or insecure.


Is that what you see?

If this was a protection dog would you continue training it?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> Is that what you see?
> 
> If this was a protection dog would you continue training it?


If he was a protection dog or a chipmunk I wouldn't be training him at all.

But he's a FT dog and family pet, and if he wasn't progressing so well in FT training, yes I would continue to train him because I love the training, the dog, and the game.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

captainjack said:


> If he wasn't progressing so well in training, yes I would continue to train him.
> 
> 
> > So you would do the same thing as the OP.
> ...


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

pintail-this situation really sucks and i dont' know how much you are taking from the posts here, but at this point i think it is established that there were a lot of things that you could have done to avoid this situation. 

maybe the trainers and seller didnt' shoot a ton over the dog. maybe they left out some details. if there is one thing i have learned in the dog world, it is YOUR responsibility to work the dog and see if it works for you, not trust another person's SUBJECTIVE opinion of how the dog performs. you didn't do that.

then on opening day, like ken said, you scared the hell out of your dog. and instead of backing up and working on the issue, you got frustrated and tried to force him into overcoming fear by "throwing him into the fire". it didn't work. it backfired.

so now you are frustrated and the dog isn't doing what you want. try backing up to nothing but fun bumpers. lots of praise. almost back up to him being a puppy and start the introduction of noise and progress to gunfire, keeping things fun.

here is how i do it with a new pup: as a pup establish a safe place-->begin feeding the dog in the safe place-->start banging 2x4 blocks as the dog eats (pleasure association)-->throw fun bumpers and birds in routine spot-->introduce cap gun in routine mark throwing spot-->continue with routine, graduate to .22-->when dog is acting unfazed try a shotgun from afar-->get the shotgun closer, til its you.

keep it positive and give lots of praise. it took a full season to get the dog scared enough to start making a bed the second he got in the boat, its gonna take some time to un-do. you might even have to re-introduce him to your boat and make that fun for him too. take it slow. be consistent, patient, and positive....you have 9 months til next season.

good luck
________
Effects of wellbutrin


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> captainjack said:
> 
> 
> > If he wasn't progressing so well in training, yes I would continue to train him.
> ...


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

When I got my one pup bake from a trainer she was a cowering scared pup at the word sit. It' took me 6 months to gain her confidence in me after her bad experiance. Once she bonded with me she started working real well. 

I suggest you just let the dog hang for awhile then gradually go into the basic routine of training. Let the dog chase birds for awhile. I would say this dog had a traumatic experience somewhere along the line and it burned into it's memory banks. Take it slow and start over if you have to.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Does anyone else find it funny that the original poster has changed his login name and continues to change his story the more he is fed?

Just my observations, he also seems to not want to get to the root of the problem by taking a step back and working with dog.

Observant minds regards,


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

The only reason I changed my log in name is because I was on my home computer when I started this post and I forgot my password, so I had to start a new user name. I am not changing my story as this goes along. Also after the first time hunting, I didn't throw the dog to the wolves and keep shooting over him. I called the two trainers and took their advise, and brought him back to the trainer for him to work with the dog. I am also not sure if every one saw my post about how I told the trainers I wanted a meat dog, not a ft or ht dog, they knew what I was looking for. 

The reason I posted this was to find out what the root of the problem was, and a lot of you say that it was my fault because of different reasons. I just hope that some of you learned something from this, that will help your friends and clients in the future. I also have to ask the people who are quick to judge me by saying I didn't (test drive the dog before the season), if you went into a truck dealership and told the salesperson you needed a truck to go through the mud and they sold you a 2 wheel drive truck and said this is all you need, and the first time you put it in the mud it gets stuck. Would you blame yourself, or the salesperson?


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> So you would do the same thing as the OP.
> 
> Take an insecure dog who doesn't have the nerve for the work and make him do it anyway..
> 
> Good answer, nice to see you love the dog.


:roll:
Snotty, snotty, snotty. Retriever/Field Training is vastly different then hunting, you get to control the situation in training-hunting you are at the whim of the birds in real time. Let me type this really slow...... so you see we are talking about field work not tracking, bite work or jumping through a hula hoops: Field Training: you get to move around, have gun stations out in the field or at the line-your choice, sit on a mat, walk up, stand on a bale of straw-whatever, go back to the truck, stop everything and help the dog or have a gunner help them, work on a specific problem or concept, etc.... 
So yes I too would go back and train this dog, try to figure out what was going on, break everything down into baby steps and build them back up. If the dog was demonstrating the same problems in training and you were not making any head way, then after I've exhausted all avenues and gotten outside help-only then would I say okay buddy-you get to be my kids playmate and fetch up tennis balls. But that's just me.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Scott Greenwood said:


> Does anyone else find it funny that the original poster has changed his login name and continues to change his story the more he is fed?
> 
> Just my observations, he also seems to not want to get to the root of the problem by taking a step back and working with dog.
> 
> Observant minds regards,


No actually, not at all.
I end up duck hunting with a lot of different folks that I do not hang with during the off-season. Especially once it got around that I was getting a good amount of birds. Friends of friends and brother-in-laws of friends and stuff like that. Anyway, there is always the feller in the group who has the best gun money can buy but cannot hit a barn from the inside. Or has the most tricked out 4x4 pick up truck with running lights and roll bars and a huge winch, and has never driven it off pavement. Or the feller who buys a big name, hot field trial pup from a pro trainer and immediately sends it to a second pro trainer and then goes hunting and………….. then tells all his friends how gosh darn terrible field trial lineage dogs are in the hunting blind and how misleading all pro dog trainers are and how a good ole meat dog is so much better than all those national champions. Stuff like this is the genesis of those long standing untrue wives tales. And has been going on foe a very long time. Not much funny about it…… sad? 

.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Pals said:


> :roll:
> Snotty, snotty, snotty. Retriever/Field Training is vastly different then hunting, you get to control the situation in training-hunting you are at the whim of the birds in real time. Let me type this really slow...... so you see we are talking about field work not tracking, bite work or jumping through a hula hoops: Field Training: you get to move around, have gun stations out in the field or at the line-your choice, sit on a mat, walk up, stand on a bale of straw-whatever, go back to the truck, stop everything and help the dog or have a gunner help them, work on a specific problem or concept, etc....
> So yes I too would go back and train this dog, try to figure out what was going on, break everything down into baby steps and build them back up. If the dog was demonstrating the same problems in training and you were not making any head way, then after I've exhausted all avenues and gotten outside help-only then would I say okay buddy-you get to be my kids playmate and fetch up tennis balls. But that's just me.



Exactly my point Pal, 

I don't care if you are talking about FT dogs, bite dogs, SAR dogs, or dogs that jump through hula hoops people need to understand that a dog must have the genetics.. nerve, drive, and be full of confidence...

Some trainers can see this early and still take your money. 

Some trainers can't see this and still take your money. 

Some trainers can see this and think they can fix it. 

Some trainer see this and know the dog will never do the work and tell you not to waste your money. 

Telling someone their dog doesn't have what it takes is never a fun job. 

I still like to think that is the way trainers who understand dogs and respect people do business.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2010)

pin-teal said:


> Guys and gals, thanks for all of the help. It is my personal opinion that the dog was not shot over, and that he wasn't introduced to birds as much as he should have been. I also can't understand how two trainers who are supposed to know dogs, never saw that this dog had a problem. I really hope that everyone is learning something from this. I told both of these trainers that I wanted a meat dog, not a ft or ht dog, just a dog to pick up the 400+ birds killed out of my blind. In my business I turn down sales if I don't think my product will work for the customer, I just hope that the trainer would of done the same if he did know there was a problem.


It sounds like you did not do your due diligence as a buyer. If a dog is not prepared for hunting and not training well, you should have seen it during your due diligence, esp if it's as bad as you say.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2010)

pin-teal said:


> (snip) if you went into a truck dealership and told the salesperson you needed a truck to go through the mud and they sold you a 2 wheel drive truck and said this is all you need, and the first time you put it in the mud it gets stuck. Would you blame yourself, or the salesperson?


When they went to make delivery of it, you would have refused. 

It is CRAZY to take delivery of a dog and not have spent a pretty significant amount of time evaluating it. It's also crazy to SELL a dog without having the buyer take a significant amount of time evaluating it. So now I think both you and the seller were at fault -- ONLY going by what you have presented here and not having heard their side of the story.

I still feel like your attitude toward the dog is ridiculous and I feel sorry for him...

-K


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

pin-teal said:


> if you went into a truck dealership and told the salesperson you needed a truck to go through the mud and they sold you a 2 wheel drive truck and said this is all you need, and the first time you put it in the mud it gets stuck. Would you blame yourself, or the salesperson?


myself....anyone can see the if it has a shifter on the floor or not. and it is completely different. a "started dog" is soooooo subjective to one's interpretation. That is why it is up to YOU to purchase based on YOUR standard of expectation. also part of your analogy---not any 4x4 can get through the mud. several factors---how deep is the mud (how many guns firing over the dog), what tires do you have on, does it have a lift, does it have differential lockers, does it have gears to spin the tires harder? A 4x4 driven off the lot doesn't get you through mud. It's a nice base, but not gonna do the job under any circumstance. 

On the other hand, if someone paid me to do meat dog training with their dog for 4 months I certainly would have been shooting around it and over it. River scenarios every day. I get why you're pissed, but it's not entirely their fault. You share some. 

Bottom line, you have a dog that needs some work. Do it.
________
Bmw r60/2 history


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

and i suggest you start a thread on "how do i reverse gun shyness in my dog" and take notes and do it. or cut your losses and get another dog and be more involved and cognizant this time.
________
Sp600


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

precisionlabradors said:


> That is why it is up to YOU to purchase based on YOUR standard of expectation. also part of your analogy---not any 4x4 can get through the mud. several factors---how deep is the mud (how many guns firing over the dog), what tires do you have on, does it have a lift, does it have differential lockers, does it have gears to spin the tires harder? A 4x4 driven off the lot doesn't get you through mud. It's a nice base, but not gonna do the job under any circumstance.


You obviously know about trucks. 

Suppose you didn't know the difference between a differential and a ball joint. Who's advice are you going to take? The dealers?


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

So many times people buy things before doing their homework and when it doesn't work out the want to blame the mfg or seller. This seems to be the case in you situation. If I'm gonna be paying $2000 for a dog I want to see this dog in action before I give any kind of dollar for it. If you were happy with the dog, then why did you send it to another trainer why not just leave it with the original trainer and tell him that this dog will be seeing 400+ duck a year like you stated. No two trainers are alike some may follow the same guidlines but train in two different styles. 
The dog is not to blame and/or its lineage, I think you brining up the pedigree of this dog is a cheap shot. The dog knows what it needs to do it just had it's pride bashed in. So who's to fault with that surely not the dog. 
You need to take the responsiblity for what has happened to this dog. If I want a dog to do just single marks then that what the trainer needs to know. It sounds like he had just the basics and that what a started dog is to me.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

As stated numerous times already, would you not want to see it perform before signing the bottom line? 

Hell, most times when buying pups people want to see mom's and pop's performance! The truck analogy is the worst I've ever heard. You still need to read the fine print to know what your getting. I put this decision squarely on the buyers shoulders. I would never make a serious decision such as this without seeing it first.

I.E; truck, house, college, boat, DOG! All should be thoroughly checked over before making decisions.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I've got this black Chow/Something mixed female who is just deathly afraid of guns, seeing them or hearing them. She had been like that for years! She's about 9 years old. 

With my new pup in the house last year, anyway I bought this Master's Voice Gun Shy cure disk. My pup was not gunshy, but I thought it could help introduce gunfire (I try anything once). I also put my gun by the food bowls, and each night I would play,in the recommended sequence, over a period of like 30 days or something like that.

Don't know if it helped my hunting dog or not, he was never gun shy, but the Chow no longers gets upset when a gun goes off, so something like that may be worth looking into.


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

PackLeader said:


> You obviously know about trucks.
> 
> Suppose you didn't know the difference between a differential and a ball joint. Who's advice are you going to take? The dealers?


again to refer to the metaphor---probably the greatest factor in the driving through mud is the DRIVER. i have wheeled moab and other spots where a "push the accelerator" driver can't make it up, but an experienced, finesse, patient driver makes it over the obstacle.

if i didn't know the difference between a differential and a ball joint i would either educate myself so i did and then hold the built truck to my expectations, or i would take the unbuilt truck with my little knowledge and drive on gravel roads.

i don't take anyone's word. i make sure for myself.
________
Herbalaire vaporizer reviews


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

precisionlabradors said:


> i don't take anyone's word. i make sure for myself.


And there you have it..Talk is cheap.


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

PackLeader said:


> And there you have it..Talk is cheap.


especially when the talker stands to gain something.
________
Child Wellbutrin


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

pin-teal said:


> ...I also have to ask the people who are quick to judge me by saying I didn't (test drive the dog before the season), if you went into a truck dealership and told the salesperson you needed a truck to go through the mud and they sold you a 2 wheel drive truck and said this is all you need, and the first time you put it in the mud it gets stuck. Would you blame yourself, or the salesperson?


I think this goes to the heart of the problem. Dogs are not trucks or any other kind of machine. The first horse I bought was such a push button hunter that I could ride figure eights in the ring going over three separate jumps simply by looking in the direction I wanted to go. It was a dream -- so much so that I paid little attention to normal riding skills like supporting the horse while moving into a jump. It didn't take long before my push button horse was a push button nightmare. He would put on the brakes and drop a shoulder unpredictably in front of jumps and then stand there calmly as I flew over the fence without him. The problem was fixed by returning to basics to rebuild his confidence.

It sounds like you have a similar problem. Your pup -- who by your description was sold as "started", not "finished" -- was thrown into a situation for which it was not prepared. There may be some trainers that include multiple gunners in blinds shooting over the dog, but I do not know them. The basic training of a dog, which is what you described that your dog received, is done entirely with remote gunners shooting. I assume that some work was done by your trainer when you brought the dog home, but I suspect it did not include anything similar to what your dog encountered on its first hunt. 

Dogs that have been through the basics are still at an early stage in their development. The dog's training needs to continue to be reinforced by someone willing and able to work with the dog. I understand that you are doing that now, but now you are dealing with the trauma from the earlier hunts. The problem is not the dog you bought but the dog that got broken in the field.

There is at least one kennel in the country that has a program for training finished gun dogs. It sells its dogs for $12-15,000 each and requires that the purchasers go to their facility for a period of training to learn how to handle their new dog before they can take possession. Maybe that would be a better approach for you to take in the future. For now, a cheaper approach might be to work with the dog you have and a professional trainer to overcome the problem that has developed and to learn how to help your dog develop further over time.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

This is an interesting thread and reminds me of a few things I learned from joining a HRC retriever club years ago and is an excellent reminder of the need for introduction.

When I got ready to run a started test I was advised the biggest mistake is people forget to introduce their dogs to decoys and what happens the excited INEXPERIENCED pup brings the decoy at the test. So I introduced the dog to decoys, no problem. Then as you progress to the next levels you introduce the dog to what will happen before it does.

The same is true in this situation. Since you have a blind that you shoot 300 birds a year out of this dog should have been introduced to it well before season and more than one time. Complete with gunfire, decoys, and shot flyers if possible. Then when the real game time comes he'd be prepared.

Not knocking you at all and I really think you can overcome this. Also thanks because this is an excellent learning thread for people with less experience.


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

OK I have a question, how is it that trainers and breeders sell puppys, started dogs, and finished dogs on this web site and are willing to put these animals on a plane to ship them if it is that important to spend time with these dogs before buying. If it is common to ship these dogs, do you trainers ever end up in a similar situation as I am in, and how do you fix it. I really don't see how what I did was any different then just getting the dog shipped. When you live 1000 miles from the guy selling the dog, all you can go on is the man's word, and that is what I did. I would also suppose that the people that get dogs shipped go just off of the word of the trainer.


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

1. Puppies, no brainer, rarely will a breader guarantee any kind of performance out of a puppy. Too many variables.

2. Finished dogs usually have performance records in check all ready. Many have Quals under bealt or have run tests or trials and can do the work.

3. Started dogs are that, started, not finished. They need more work and that is a given. Buddy sold a started dog a while back and that is what it was, good ob, cc, forced and would retrieve. The buyer understood this.

You need to do your part of the deal and ask questions, make sure you understand what you are getting and be prepared to get just that if you didn't hold up your end of the deal.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

pin-teal said:


> OK I have a question, how is it that trainers and breeders sell puppys, started dogs, and finished dogs on this web site and are willing to put these animals on a plane to ship them if it is that important to spend time with these dogs before buying. If it is common to ship these dogs, do you trainers ever end up in a similar situation as I am in, and how do you fix it. I really don't see how what I did was any different then just getting the dog shipped. When you live 1000 miles from the guy selling the dog, all you can go on is the man's word, and that is what I did. I would also suppose that the people that get dogs shipped go just off of the word of the trainer.


Dude, I think your CRAZY! Nothing personal mind you, but you did go a WHOLE SEASON before you made it an issue and understood the problem, as far as I am concerned your dog did not deserve you, hopefully you will not have an opportunity to do what YOU did to another dog again! 

Is your name PACK?>??


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Byron Musick said:


> Is your name PACK?>??


Maybe his name is Byron and his dog went in the chicken coop one to many times.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> Maybe his name is Byron and his dog went in the chicken coop one to many times.


Pack, I'm a newbie, give me the name of every title dog you have in the AKC field, Hunt Test, NAHRA, HRC, Show me something bud, Show me what you have? Give me a reason to believe you!


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

It's hard to communicate without a common language. When a trainer or seller describes a dog as having gone through FF, CC, FTP, T, Double-T, etc., but having not completed swimby and only being in early stages of hand commands, the trainer is assuming that you know what these terms mean and how they relate to an overall training program. If you seem to evidence an understanding of what the terms mean (whether you do or don't), the trainer may not go through all the details. For the buyer, it is essential to be very concrete and explicit about your expectations. It is not enough to say simply "I want a gun dog." What does that mean to you? Ask the seller to relate the dog's abilities to your needs. Find out if the dog has actually been in an environment in training that includes the features that it will encounter when working with you.

Good communication depends on both parties to a transaction.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Byron Musick said:


> Pack, I'm a newbie, give me the name of every title dog you have in the AKC field, Hunt Test, NAHRA, HRC, Show me something bud, Show me what you have? Give me a reason to believe you!


Soon enough my friend, soon enough. If I had already competed and sucked you could take all the shots you want.


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

Byron Musick said:


> Dude, I think your CRAZY! Nothing personal mind you, but you did go a WHOLE SEASON before you made it an issue and understood the problem, as far as I am concerned your dog did not deserve you, hopefully you will not have an opportunity to do what YOU did to another dog again!
> 
> Is your name PACK?>??


Listen her son, you don't know me, and you don't know what I have been through with this dog. I did not wait until the end of the season to make this an issue. I have talked to several trainers about this problem throughout the season, and had him back at the trainer several times throughout the season. I would like to thank the nice people who took the time to help me with this. Also I see this forum is a lot like other internet forums in the since there is a lot of good info here to learn, but you have to weed through some of the kids that post here.


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

pin-teal said:


> OK I have a question, how is it that trainers and breeders sell puppys, started dogs, and finished dogs on this web site and are willing to put these animals on a plane to ship them if it is that important to spend time with these dogs before buying. If it is common to ship these dogs, do you trainers ever end up in a similar situation as I am in, and how do you fix it. I really don't see how what I did was any different then just getting the dog shipped. When you live 1000 miles from the guy selling the dog, all you can go on is the man's word, and that is what I did. I would also suppose that the people that get dogs shipped go just off of the word of the trainer.


 
it isn't any different. but i always send videos. and if a person simply takes my word for it i dont' have much sympathy for them when i have video evidence of the dog doing what i said it would do and they didn't come to see it. 

i used to end up in a similar situation as you...me saying something..and the dog really did do it for me, but wouldn't for the new owner. sort of like the truck analogy....one driver can get the best built truck stuck, another can get a mildly built truck over many obstacles. so i started taking video. that way i could assist the new owner in getting back on track. 

so, are you gonna start working on it? because there have been some to criticize and some to offer help, but it seems it is all falling on deaf ears; that you just want to hear that you are right.
________
LovelyWendie


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## Spoonbill (Mar 16, 2009)

Well, having just spent 40 minutes reading this thread, I 'll throw in another perspective. My opinion would be that pin-teal is posting in a forum for dog-fanatics and those trying to learn from them. Lots of good points made, though it seems we're getting pretty hard on him. I don't find it difficult to see the situtation from his perspective...

Pin-teal mentioned a number of time that he hopes ppl can learn from his experience.

If I were reading this thread as a potential buyer of a started dog...I'd take away the following
-You have to do as much research on "pro" trainers as you do on the dog itself
-Don't take someone selling a dog or their training services at their word, see it yourself or get it in writing (how many ppl actually like having to ask for this?)
-You still have plenty of training to do yourself once you get the dog

Maybe common sense for ppl on this forum, but for someone not engrossed in the dog-world these 3 points may not be self-evident. The sellers honesty and the buyers research hopefully form a balance and decent transacation proceeds, but that's not the case here.

So pin-teal has posted to vent a little and consider his options, which I interpret to be
1)invest more time and energy and perhaps money into this dog to potentially overcome the problem (perhaps negating the reason he wanted a started dog in the first place??)

or

2)Cut your losses, find a good home for the dog, and try again with the wisdom gained from this experience. 

I'd guess Pin-teal will make this decision based on the priorities he has established for himself and not on what everyone else thinks he should do.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I don't know what gtail should do. He doesn't seem to be a dog person so the chances of him training the dog out of this dilema seems remote. 

The pros he's had haven't gotten the job done so I probably wouldn't send the dog back to either of them. I might think about sending the dog to an HRC pro. This would be someone who shoots over the dog at the line and not just once in awhile either. I wouldn't commit to anything more than a 30 day evaluation at the beginning. And, it would have to be someone who's been in the retriever training buisiness for quite some time. If the dog loves birds enough I expect it'll come out of this. If not, not.

I liked the points Spoonbill made:



> If I were reading this thread as a potential buyer of a started dog...I'd take away the following
> *-You have to do as much research on "pro" trainers as you do on the dog itself*
> *-Don't take someone selling a dog or their training services at their word, see it yourself or get it in writing (how many ppl actually like having to ask for this?)*
> *-You still have plenty of training to do yourself once you get the dog*
> ...


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

We also market the retriever through a 30 minute DVD of the dog working.I take the dog in a canoe,throw out a couple of decoys,get out of the boat into a duck blind...call some....shoot the live ammo at nothing......reload,call some more.....have momma launch two dokens very quickly,shoot three times,reload,shoot one more doken.....send the dog.When the person comes to see the dog,we "hunt" together in a similar fashon,but he sends the dog.then I get out of the blind and let them do some more hunting.Then I give him a radio and I back way out of the picture.After a rest, we turn on land and shoot a flier launched out of a pop box.This at least covers the basic hunt,with alot of calling,missing,and retrieves.If he/she wants the dog,they pay for the dog,and takes him home for bonding,and is suggested to come back after a week to waltz out and take his dog out to the pond for the full "hunt" as a team.I video them doing this.........This works for us,and we have not had the first problem with a retriever we have sold.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

You spent the entire hunting season shooting over a gun shy dog? Seems to me one such episode of curling up on the ground shaking would have clued you in that you shoud STOP taking the dog hunting and begin to work this problem out. You shoot 400 birds from your blind and all over a gun shy dog? 

Im sorry if your trainers didnt give you what you wanted or if you neglected to tell your trainers what you wanted. 

Pointing fingers aside, lets just forget the blame game for now. You shot 400 ducks over a gun shy dog.

Buy some of your marine products (boat) or a quad or whatever you need to pick up your own birds.

Just dont ever buy another dog.


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## Spoonbill (Mar 16, 2009)

TIM DOANE said:


> You spent the entire hunting season shooting over a gun shy dog? Seems to me one such episode of curling up on the ground shaking would have clued you in that you shoud STOP taking the dog hunting and begin to work this problem out. You shoot 400 birds from your blind and all over a gun shy dog?


I didn't read this in his posts?? I read;

-After he got the dog he sent it to another trainer for 5 months of "finishing" work

-"My local trainer worked with the dog for about three weeks during the season shooting over him while throwing marks (starting out fun)."

-*"Also after the first time hunting, I didn't throw the dog to the wolves and keep shooting over him. I called the two trainers and took their advise, and brought him back to the trainer for him to work with the dog. I am also not sure if every one saw my post about how I told the trainers I wanted a meat dog, not a ft or ht dog, they knew what I was looking for.* "

Not sure why some won't give him the benefit of the doubt here, for my purposes I assume posts are honest?

Problem with posting about dog behavior on this forum is that you need to write a small novel to describe a problem that no one else can see. And in this case where some details aren't clear we assume the worst?

I've got lots of great advice here but have been lucky to have a friend that does "pro" training, because an experienced eye seeing the dog is worth a thousand paragraphs on this forum.

In lieu of a friend in pro-training pintail paid for the service. From the above quotes , it dosen't sound like he bought a started dog and threw it in the kennel until opening day and then tried to ignore the gun-shyness.

Pin-teal, in my opinion you are still allowed to own a dog.


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## pin-teal (Aug 6, 2008)

Spoon, you are right, this was the purpose of this post, to inform myself, and others. Some people may think that I am not a dog person, but I am. My first ever retriever, I trained myself, and he was the best dog I ever had. As I got older and started a business and a family (a 2 1/2 year old boy and a baby boy due next month) I didn't feel as though I had the time to spend with a puppy, so I went this route. I planned in a few years when my boys are older to go the puppy route again and let them in on the training. I don't want people to think I am harsh and don't care about the dog or his problems, but I am a business man and take care of my customers, and I expect to get what what I paid for, or what I was promised. Also I didn't shoot 400 birds over this dog. I hunted him maybe 7 times this year, he went back to the trainer to try to work this out.

I am really at a stand still with the dog. I want to let him be a dog for a while and take the pressure off of him before I start back working with him. I have a newborn coming in a month, so that takes away from training time. I really don't want to spend any more money with trainers at this time. I would be willing to sell him to someone who has the time to work this out. I really believe the dog will make someone a great dog that doesn't hunt in the same conditions as I do. (I hunt south Louisiana marsh). The dog on land and in the field works like a champ.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

gtail said:


> I have been lurking for quite some time now and I have to say, what a great site. I have quite a situation and I need a little advise. I purchased a started 2 yr old BLM dog from a pro trainer on this site approx. 10 months ago. I agreed to pay him a couple of extra months of training so that I could pick him up on a trip up north. I picked up this dog the first weekend in May of 2009 and brought him home. I was very excited with my purchase because this would be the highest bread dog I have ever owned. After getting the dog home I took him to a local trainer to finish him for the season. (This trainer had been in touch with the pro who I bought the dog from before the purchase). *Long story short, 10 months later I have a dog that has hunted a whole season and has picked up a total of 10 birds*, only on blind retrieves after the hunt. As soon as the guns come out of the gun cases the dog rolls up in a ball and starts to shake. After the hunt is over he comes alive again. I am trying to figure out what to do. Who is responsible for this? I have a lot of money tied up in this dog, I spent an entire hunting season frustrated with the situation, and most importantly a 2 1/2 year old son who is attached to the dog. Thanks for the help!!


OK hows this


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

pin-teal said:


> Thanks very much for all the help and info. Let me give ya'll a little more history. I made an agreement to pay $2000 for the dog at a started level. He was ff, cc, obedience, forced to the pile, etc, everything except hand signals. He was just starting swim by in the water due to the water being frozen. I did not spend very much time with the dog when I picked him up because I am an honest person, and I hope I can trust a man's word. After I brought him home, he spent two months at home getting to know me and my family. I then sent him to a trainer that is approx. 1 mile from my place of business. I would check up on the dog often. I also brought the dog home a couple of times during his training to hang out with the family. I also don't want ya'll to think that I just gave up on the dog on his first day out, the trainer and myself have spent a lot of time working with the dog trying to fix this problem. *I even spent an entire hunt kneeling down in the grass with the dog while my buds hunted trying to get the dog to mark the flying birds. When in the blind, the dog does not look around for birds. Last Saturday he actually was scratching the floor of the boat making his bed before we started hunting. I have hunted him one on one, with two people, with three people and with four people, with the same results. We also have hunted him several times with a seasoned dog and that didn't help. Thanks again.*




Heres what I was looking at.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

pin-teal said:


> We introduced the pigeon in a fun way, and the dog actually looked to be a little scared of the bird. Maybe not scared, but confused. I agree that I do believe the problem was man made.


Sound like a dog you want to force into hunting


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

pin-teal said:


> You hit the nail on the head with the anxiety issues. Actually opening morning he did pee himself. Second time out we hunted him with a seasoned dog to try to make it fun. *It is really sad to see this sweet dog ball up and be scared out of his mind. My question is should a pro trainer be able to tell by the age of 2 years old that a dog can not take pressure, or that the dog may have anxiety issues.*




Ya what was I reading


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Spoonbill said:


> I didn't read this in his posts?? I read;
> 
> -After he got the dog he sent it to another trainer for 5 months of "finishing" work
> 
> ...


Did you read the whole post. Maybe I just misunderstood, in which case I apologize.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

You are confusing not able to handle pressure with shell-shock, and still trying to compare taking the dog out opening day with a bunch of hunters to a warranty on a vehicle. What if you sold a used car to someone that said they just want a 2nd car to beat around in and they took it off-road and it fell apart? Would you give them their money back and take the losses and fix the car for free? No, you would say the car wasn't meant to off road and the buyer would say you sold me junk, you should have known it wouldn't hold up. I told you what I wanted it for. There was a failure in communication and you are obviously burnt about the money you spent, but it is not reasonable to expect a started dog could be taken out opening day and shot over by multiple guns. A reasonable person would not expect to be able to do what you did. I believe if either pro-trainer really believed this dog showed any signs that he would be curling up in a ball they would have taken the dog back and fixed him. Again, you created it because you wanted a fast track to a seasoned hunting dog.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

OK gave my 2 cents worth earlier so heres 3 more cents to make a nickel. Sell or find the dog a home that can overcome the problems and then buy a Finished dog for 5k which is prolly what you should have done in the first place. Expecting a started dog to retrieve 400 birds at first asking is quite a bit to expect.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2010)

pin-teal said:


> (snip)I would also suppose that the people that get dogs shipped go just off of the word of the trainer.


No, they get in a plane or their car and actually SEE and work with the dog. OR they have a friend or someone they trust in the area evaluate the dog for them. I can't imagine spending thousands of dollars sight unseen... I've had people fly and drive here for the very rare started/finished dog I've sold.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I guess I would question why the original seller of this dog is to blame, the OP mentions FF, CC, some pile work but not swimby due to weather, that is a pretty basic started dog and for a Joe pup x who knows what dam or clearances, I guess about average at 2K. There was a 2nd trainer involved, apparently quite local to the OP, who had this dog for 5 months prior to hunting, with the 5th month being free because when the OP went at 4 months, the dog wouldn't do cold blinds. So what exactly did the 2nd trainer do for 5 months and 2K? If the OP went and worked with him like he says, what was seen, how did the dog act then, were simulated hunting scenarios done with dog in blind, etc? I just don't get this 2nd trainer part if he, as stated, was told the goal was hunting dog with multiple gunners, who dropped the ball here? The dog is confused and afraid in the holding blind, but works okay on land so I'd be trying to figure out what is causing this problem in the blind/waterfowl hunting and that local trainer who had the dog 5 months would be doing a lot of explaining _if_ he really knew how I hunted and the dog appears that confused & afraid. There should have been at least some interface with the trainer and the OP here prior to that dog ever going into a real waterfowl hunt to try things out in a controlled setting. There are some missing pieces or really bad communication going on here and I hope the OP either finds the dog a more understanding, committed home or actually listens and invests in solving this issue, but it wouldn't be with that same trainer, a new set of eyes might make a difference.


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## Shannon M Calvert (Jul 25, 2007)

Absolutely amazing at how quick people jump to bash someone. I FEEL this guy did his homework pretty well and worked with a trainer and told him exactly what he was looking for. Would the pro's "DUE DILIGENCE" not to be to train a meat dog? I would think shooting over him would be a pretty important part of that training.....not sure but I would think. Any of you "PRO's" ever not try to put the blame on a new handler who has put his trust in you? This is the main reason you don't see more new people posting up, IMHO.
NOT a local RTF pro regards,


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Shannon M Calvert said:


> Absolutely amazing at how quick people jump to bash someone. I FEEL this guy did his homework pretty well and worked with a trainer and told him exactly what he was looking for. Would the pro's "DUE DILIGENCE" not to be to train a meat dog? I would think shooting over him would be a pretty important part of that training.....not sure but I would think. Any of you "PRO's" ever not try to put the blame on a new handler who has put his trust in you? This is the main reason you don't see more new people posting up, IMHO.
> NOT a local RTF pro regards,


There are pro's and then there are pro's. You don't know who the pro was. Anybody can hang out a shingle. There are no regulations preventing it. It is hardly fair to lump the pro's on this board in with the scenario described.

Rainmaker made some good valid points.

If I sold you a car and you took it to another mechanic who spent 5 months working on it and then you called me to say it was a piece of junk I would laugh at you. Who knows what the 2nd trainer did? How do you know someone didn't ruin a perfectly good dog? I do not train dogs for money, but if you bought a dog for over 2 grand, brought it to me for additional training, and he had big problems, I think I would be calling you the first month to tell you you got taken. If a dog has the issues that were described they would definitely show up during training.

This guy says he runs a guide service or some such then he ought not be considered a new handler.

If a piece of fish smells bad don't eat it regards,


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

If it was running properly I wouldn't have to bring it to a second mechanic in the first place.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Shannon M Calvert said:


> Absolutely amazing at how quick people jump to bash someone. I FEEL this guy did his homework pretty well and worked with a trainer and told him exactly what he was looking for.


But did he? The pro ended up giving him a month for free in order to get the dog going on cold blinds. Why would a pro do that unless the emphasis was on getting the dog doing blinds rather than on conditioning him to 6-9 shots fired right over his head without warning? If I was giving away my time with the goal of getting a dog doing blinds, I'd spend my time working on blinds. That requires grounds, knowledge, finesse, and continuity of handler, which a sensible introduction to gunfire does not.

Many dogs can be trained out of gunshyness. It's not as easy as preventing it in the first place, but the OP or a new owner can likely do it. Since the OP does not seem to understand the nature of the fear, IMO he should get experienced help if he decides to keep the dog.

Amy Dahl


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

PackLeader said:


> If it was running properly I wouldn't have to bring it to a second mechanic in the first place.


He bought a "started" dog, hence taking it to the second trainer to "finish", a started dog is not ready to go on a full fledged waterfowl hunt, particularly under the conditions the OP wanted. To continue the auto metaphor, he bought a partially assembled "kit" and the second mechanic was hired to get the auto in running order by completing the assembly. Or someone buys a "shell" house and hires a contractor to do the finish work. Who is to blame when the house doesn't turn out the way the buyer wanted? The seller of the shell, the finish contractor or the buyer? We don't know enough of the whole story to judge whether the initial kit was missing pieces, whether the finish mechanic/carpenter didn't know how to properly assemble the pieces to make it work, or if the buyer didn't communicate his desires accurately. But to imply a started dog should have been "running properly" and not needed that second trainer is incorrect in the context of this thread.


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## precisionlabradors (Jun 14, 2006)

Shannon M Calvert said:


> Absolutely amazing at how quick people jump to bash someone. I FEEL this guy did his homework pretty well and worked with a trainer and told him exactly what he was looking for. Would the pro's "DUE DILIGENCE" not to be to train a meat dog? I would think shooting over him would be a pretty important part of that training.....not sure but I would think. Any of you "PRO's" ever not try to put the blame on a new handler who has put his trust in you? This is the main reason you don't see more new people posting up, IMHO.
> NOT a local RTF pro regards,


the op would attract way less criticism if he actually listened to advice or tried to discuss how maybe he went wrong and how he could fix it rather than passing the buck. i haven't seen one post from him discussing how he intends to fix it. is after support that he is in the right. looks like you think he is. maybe he is. i think both sides could have done better.

but bottom line is he still has a dog that is gunshy and he could try to overcome it. wonder if he will.
________
HotAlexiss


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## scott2012 (Feb 16, 2009)

I sure would like to know these two "pro's" side of the story at this point?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

scott2012 said:


> I sure would like to know these two "pro's" side of the story at this point?


Oh no there is only one side to this story. Poor guy got taken everyone knows that a started dog should be able to go to a blind and retrieve 400 birds right off the bat.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Oh no there is only one side to this story. Poor guy got taken everyone knows that a started dog should be able to go to a blind and retrieve 400 birds right off the bat.


Yes, This is EXACTLY correct, and furthermore its all FT/HT trainer's who are responsible, only a MEAT DOG TRAINER could have done it right!!  

I wanted to make sure I add that I am only trying to be sarcastic, i actually do feel VERY sorry for the dog lying on its back, shivering and peeing all over itself. I think I had bad dreams about it too!! Hope the dog gets this problem fixed and can enjoy hunting!


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

"I picked up this dog the first weekend in May of 2009 and brought him home. I was very excited with my purchase because this would be the highest bread dog I have ever owned. *After getting the dog home I took him to a local trainer to finish him* for the season. (*This trainer had been in touch with the pro who I bought the dog from *before the purchase)." 

The dog was two years old and then had another 10 months of training "*to finish him*." 

Is it the norm to have a three year old pro trained dog you cant shoot over? We will never know what really happened so why bother. 

If the OP is a lie and the pros are on this board then why havent they told us the real story yet?

Something doesn't add up....Will we ever know the truth?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> "I picked up this dog the first weekend in May of 2009 and brought him home. I was very excited with my purchase because this would be the highest bread dog I have ever owned. *After getting the dog home I took him to a local trainer to finish him* for the season. (*This trainer had been in touch with the pro who I bought the dog from *before the purchase)."
> 
> The dog was two years old and then had another 10 months of training "*to finish him*."
> 
> ...


Most of us already know the truth.....why don't you? BTW noone said anyone was a liar cept maybe you.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Is it the norm to have a three year old pro trained dog you cant shoot over?


I don't know the truth of this situation but this is very much *NOT* the norm for pro trained dogs from good field breedings.

This story is not adding up at all. There seems to be failures all across the board.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Leddyman said:


> This guy says he runs a guide service or some such then he ought not be considered a new handler.
> 
> If a piece of fish smells bad don't eat it regards,


The guys web site is about duck boats and the original belt driven mud motor. Not guiding hunters. I am wondering if opening morning came to be. The new dog hops into a new boat with a couple of strangers and gets an O’dark hundred boat ride from hell. Then gets the typical opening morning barrage of gunfire. Trying to dig out of the blind? Good on land but not water. Nothing but speculation here but lines are meant to be read between. And you know how much louder guns are in the confines of a boat blind.


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## Shannon M Calvert (Jul 25, 2007)

Leddyman said:


> There are pro's and then there are pro's. You don't know who the pro was. Anybody can hang out a shingle. There are no regulations preventing it. It is hardly fair to lump the pro's on this board in with the scenario described.


You are correct and I shouldn't have made such a sterotypical statement.......I apologize. I get a good bit of useful information from this board.



Leddyman said:


> This guy says he runs a guide service or some such then he ought not be considered a new handler.


I never read that part. Maybe I missed it...



Leddyman said:


> If a piece of fish smells bad don't eat it regards,


I think salmon smells like sh*#......does that make it bad? 
I guess I'm just more like the OP when he says that he put his trust in a pro. When I got started, I put my trust in one who frequents this board daily and I guess he could have really taken me for a ride also if that was his intention but instead I gained a lifelong friend and training buddy. That's all.


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## Shannon M Calvert (Jul 25, 2007)

afdahl said:


> But did he? The pro ended up giving him a month for free in order to get the dog going on cold blinds. Why would a pro do that unless the emphasis was on getting the dog doing blinds rather than on conditioning him to 6-9 shots fired right over his head without warning? If I was giving away my time with the goal of getting a dog doing blinds, I'd spend my time working on blinds. That requires grounds, knowledge, finesse, and continuity of handler, which a sensible introduction to gunfire does not.
> 
> Amy Dahl


I wonder why the guy would want the dog to run a blind? Maybe he was going to take him HUNTING, where there would be GUNS. I just tend to trust people a little and give a little credit to what people say. Thats all again. I'm outa here for a couple of days. This is the most posts I have ever put up in a couple of days and I am sure most of you would rather me go away anyway sooo.......I think I will go back into hiding.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

People often judge others by what they wear. How they look. How they speak. What they appear to be doing with their lives. Or how many resources they have at their disposal. 

Thats their problem.


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## Herd Buck (May 6, 2010)

This is my first post I have been lurking for a while and been reading about gun shy dogs and came upon this article. Then in reading the classifieds I saw this dog available for purchase by pin-teal
pin-teal 


Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New Iberia, La.
Posts: 14 (LA) Finished BLM 3 Yr Old 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 yr. old Finished Black Lab. 'Packer' is out of FC Candlewood's Meet Joe Black who is the son of Lean Mac. Packer has a very strong pedigree on both sides. Packer is finished and ready to hunt. He has been Pro trained since he was a pup. $3500 For more information call Marcus @ 337-380-8160 


Now i don't know if he has cured the dog of his problems in the time since this post was put up but thought it was a bit concerning especially since I am in the market for a started pup. Maybe it's not the same dog???


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## dogshom (Mar 16, 2010)

Pin teal-this is SO much like an experience I had-

I had a long talk with a breeder about what I was looking for, sight unseen she sent me a pup that was REALLY far from what I wanted. My puppy was also very expensive. 

He didn't have the energy level, the drive or the athleticism I wanted. In essence he was a nice family pet-nothing wrong with him for that, but that is NOT what I wanted. I am in the position to keep several dogs, the whole family liked him and so he stayed here and competes in another sport. It was a hard two years for me to learn to accept him for who he is, but now that I have I think I learned the life lesson in all that. 

I don't blame the breeder-is she dishonest? I don't know and don't care. But I do think my mistake was in letting someone else pick a puppy for me. I need to take a look at any potential puppy I buy-I shouldn't have left it up to someone I didn't know to decide if this was the pup I wanted to work for the next 12-15 years. 
Hope you and your dog find peace in this situation.
Kathy


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I have had similiar experience with dogs. But I have fixed them all. A couple were just afraid of the gun not the noise. I did like one of the earlier poster said. Played with him with the gun in my lap, etc. He made an excellant gundog. Retrieved a ton of ducks.
Try and isolate the problem. Is it noise or just the gun? Have someone shoot from a long ways off and work closer but still remote. If noise isn't the issue, then try handling a shot gun around the dog. If he flinchs or cowers then proceed as described above.

By the way, do you really shoot bullets in your shotgun?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I tell all my clients to not hunt a dog for the first time with a bunch of guys with guns. I tell them to go by themselves for the first time, etc, etc. I train hunting dogs and HT dogs so they all get shot over but it is not the same.


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