# 2016 National Retriever Championship



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Good luck to everyone running this years National.
First Series starts tomorrow and the Blog is up and running.
https://2016nrc.blogspot.com/
.
Link to event Youtube videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/retrievernews?feature=guide


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I went with all sentimental picks this year based on the connections involved, just wasn't into handicapping the field this time around..Guessing it will be the same cast of characters around in the 10th..Congrats to all the dogs/handlers that Qualified along with those entered


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Series 1, Land Triple.
.


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## Chipper31 (Mar 8, 2009)

Where do u find the list of dogs competing?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Chipper31 said:


> Where do u find the list of dogs competing?


https://2016nrc.blogspot.com/
at top click Order of the Draw


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Virtually everyone that has trained, trialed or judged there have run these same marks. Cover is good, dike is steep influencing the line, easy place to park, generally have wind at your back. You can also run land and water blinds from there with little movement. Always get answers.

Ronan Bill


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

2nd Series. 2 drone videos posted. Looks tight.
.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Wow...that will give some answers


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Haven't heard blog mention any dog taking the water route to the long retired. 
Seems if dog skims backside of flyer guns and maybe pushes left off of short retired fall that would put them in the water. Don't know what theyre doing just looking on web from 2 time zones away


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Testing contradictory concepts. Most trainers train dogs to get in water when near water. Almost like throwing a bird on the front side of water.


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Bamajeff, at this level having dogs run by water is not contrary . Balance is the name of the game. Dogs need to be comfortable going were ever sent. I think the bigger issue for the dogs is tightness, line wise, to the long bird. That and seeing the long gun with a close in flier.

Ronan Bill


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Interesting 2nd series test, wish I could see dogs run. 
Blog descriptions can't tell too much. Bet there are lots of squiggles in judges books on this setup.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

All age dogs are asked to run by water all the time. I can assure you it's nothing new. It's not the Q with young dogs, at this level they need to be balanced enough to go where sent. 



bamajeff said:


> Wow...that will give some answers


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Breck said:


> Interesting 2nd series test, wish I could see dogs run.
> Blog descriptions can't tell too much. Bet there are lots of squiggles in judges books on this setup.


 The blog reports that you are running Kid . . . Who's running him for you?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> The blog reports that you are running Kid . . . Who's running him for you?


.
Different Breck. Breck Howard is running.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Breck said:


> .
> Different Breck. Breck Howard is running.


 Lol, my apologies. . . . who would have thought there'd be two people in the retriever world named Breck?


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Their both pretty good guys!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Peter Balzer said:


> Lol, my apologies. . . . who would have thought there'd be two people in the retriever world named Breck?


Dr Breck Howard co owns Kid with Ms Valerie Martin


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

the dogs that run straight to the holding blind then establish a hunt. Are these dogs REALLY marking? Or have they learned to hunt around the cookie jar?

Dog 84 looks to have had a set of nice marks.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I would imagine the blind is brushed in pretty well. If you get close enough to find it then good for you. I'm willing to bet if you were there you would be able to better appreciate the difficulty. It's not like the blind is sitting in the middle of an open field where you can see it from the line. Attend some field trials and it will give you a better idea of what your asking about.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Tobias said:


> the dogs that run straight to the holding blind then establish a hunt. Are these dogs REALLY marking? Or have they learned to hunt around the cookie jar?
> 
> Dog 84 looks to have had a set of nice marks.


have seen and have had a couple of dogs that run straight at the guns, look like they might hook the gun and then peel off and stick the mark between their legs..Sometimes they get pencil whipped by a judge, and some will contend that they are measuring the arc of the throw

There have been discussions ad nauseam as to who has the better mark here on the RTF on that subject alone


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Are you talking about a retired bird with brushed holding blind?



BonMallari said:


> have seen and have had a couple of dogs that run straight at the guns, look like they might hook the gun and then peel off and stick the mark between their legs..Sometimes they get pencil whipped by a judge, and some will contend that they are measuring the arc of the throw
> 
> There have been discussions ad nauseam as to who has the better mark here on the RTF on that subject alone


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

the blog is making me crazy with descriptions of dog work.
For many dogs they are saying got Deep etc etc on LR. 
Anyone there? Are dogs actuality getting way deep in run around space? Or are these mostly decent hunts on a long retired?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Justin Allen said:


> Are you talking about a retired bird with brushed holding blind?


not specifically, but Yes some dogs mark off the guns that way...and a couple in the backyard have an FC and an AFC...


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

What trials are you running where holding blinds are actually visible? In order to run at a holding blind a dog would have to be able to see it correct?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Justin Allen said:


> What trials are you running where holding blinds are actually visible? In order to run at a holding blind a dog would have to be able to see it correct?


Lets not derail the National thread...but holding blinds are not invisible, an experienced dog knows where they are, they can smell the bird crates, just because they don't see it from the line, don't assume they don't know where they are...

I was the retired gun at the Butte trial last year, I could tell the dogs knew where I was, pretty obvious based on the path they took, especially those that got deep of my station


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

A dog knows where the holding blind is because they remember where the mark is. Your commentary makes it sound like dogs are seeing the blinds from the line and running to them. I've been to a field trial before, so yes I realize dogs find the blinds once they get out there. The poster we both replied to was asking if dogs were using the blinds as a crutch to get the bird. A field trailer of your experience should know they haven't left those blinds exposed for the dogs to pick out. There is no reason to give the false impression the work these dogs are doing is made simpler because of visible guns. 



BonMallari said:


> Lets not derail the National thread...but holding blinds are not invisible, an experienced dog knows where they are, they can smell the bird crates, just because they don't see it from the line, don't assume they don't know where they are...
> 
> I was the retired gun at the Butte trial last year, I could tell the dogs knew where I was, pretty obvious based on the path they took, especially those that got deep of my station


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Justin Allen said:


> I would imagine the blind is brushed in pretty well. If you get close enough to find it then good for you. I'm willing to bet if you were there you would be able to better appreciate the difficulty. It's not like the blind is sitting in the middle of an open field where you can see it from the line. Attend some field trials and it will give you a better idea of what your asking about.


I was just going to say the same thing, holding blinds in a National are all but invisible even from a few feet away. On top of that, the long marks are usually so hard to get to, kudos to the dog that runs directly to even close to where the gunner stood. There's a huge difference between a dog that runs out toward the gun then turns toward the fall, and a dog who stumbles on the holding blind and hunts the wrong side a long time before finally working over to the bird.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Thank you!! Let's not give the false impression that these dogs can see the holding blinds well enough to run at it. They are marking birds for crying out loud. If they get there they deserve to find a holding blind.


John Robinson said:


> I was just going to say the same thing, holding blinds in a National are all but invisible even from a few feet away. On top of that, the long marks are usually so hard to get to, kudos to the dog that runs directly to even close to where the gunner stood. There's a huge difference between a dog that runs out toward the gun then turns toward the fall, and a dog who stumbles on the holding blind and hunts the wrong side a long time before finally working over to the bird.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

We're talking about dogs running at the guns implying that they can see them from the line. They can't. That's my point. I'm well aware they can wind the guns and therefore find the holding blind. How do you think the dogs got to your holding blind?? Dumb luck, or did they make the area and get downwind of you? It's not like your retiring 50 yards away from the bird. If they find the blind then they are close. They found the blind by having a decent mark on the bird more often than not. I understand there are times they can pick out a blind as I have seen it happen. However finding the blind hiding the gunner means they got there. 



BonMallari said:


> Lets not derail the National thread...but holding blinds are not invisible, an experienced dog knows where they are, they can smell the bird crates, just because they don't see it from the line, don't assume they don't know where they are...
> 
> I was the retired gun at the Butte trial last year, I could tell the dogs knew where I was, pretty obvious based on the path they took, especially those that got deep of my station


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Breck said:


> the blog is making me crazy with descriptions of dog work.
> For many dogs they are saying got Deep etc etc on LR.
> Anyone there? Are dogs actuality getting way deep in run around space? Or are these mostly decent hunts on a long retired?


I watched most of the dogs run today and was able to see it from the line as a bird steward.

It is tight. The long guner is standing inline with the fall of the short retired. However, the long bird is hip pocket to the flyer station, but not insanely tight as it appeared from the gallery.

Strategically, its safer to send at or right of the guns for the short retired, letting the dogs wind it from there. The HB is hidden behind a mound that the gunners stand on to throw. This opens up the middle for the long retired.

Everyone was wrestling to understand why dogs taking great lines to the long retired were turning hard right near the HB and establishing some big hunts on the back side. From the gallery, even dogs going under the arc would take a right and establish hunts out in no man's land; many were pretty significant and way deep. Handlers often couldn't see the dogs out to the right due the mounds near the MR.

Seeing the aerial photo now, its likely they were squaring the angled road, and not getting deep enough with a (mostly) SW wind on the long bird.

My perspective fwiw.


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## Yellowdogs (Mar 29, 2009)

Think about this if you were cue into gun station, which the gunners are a lot bigger and easy to see then the bird that is thrown , then the gunner is retried you probably would remember where the gunner was more than the bird.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Yellowdogs said:


> Think about this if you were cue into gun station, which the gunners are a lot bigger and easy to see then the bird that is thrown , then the gunner is retried you probably would remember where the gunner was more than the bird.


I like...

BJ


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Thanks for the info Mark. 
Sounds like a number of out of the area hunts etc. 
Not your old double n blind series 1 & 2.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I love the first 2 series so far. The 2nd is tight and really looks to be testing the dogs. Thanks for the on sight assessment mark.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> I watched most of the dogs run today and was able to see it from the line as a bird steward.
> 
> It is tight. The long guner is standing inline with the fall of the short retired. However, the long bird is hip pocket to the flyer station, but not insanely tight as it appeared from the gallery.
> 
> ...


Wind is a large factor affecting dogs, perhaps the strongest factor, the wind for most of the day was left to right which along with the tightness of the lines to the two dead bird marks influenced the dogs downwind of both gun stations. Both holding blinds were well concealed by round bales the short bird gun station retired behind a mound that we stood on to throw the bird. Since we use round bales to conceal guns in training it is not an unfamiliar way to conceal guns. I was on the short bird for the last shift and could hear dogs hunting around the blind especially when the wind died near the end of the day.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Seems a number of dogs are hammering the LR this morning. Yesterday think problems with L to R wind. What is wind this morning?


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Weather Bug has wind @ 2mph from SW with gusts @6mph from W, 72 degrees with a high of 78 today.;-)


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

so where are the pictures or diagrams of todays double blind ? can't accept the lack of an internet signal, because I had an internet signal with my Verizon hot spot in the middle of the Fowler property in Bonham in '09 during the Red River trial...With all the expansion in NTX in the last 7 years I think they erected a few more cell towers in the area, because Bonham, Ravenna, Sherman aren't that far apart..

the description sounds like the type of blind that Lanse used to hate, the old "out of sight, out of control, out of the trial"...I like the long entry before the dogs hit water because we run many like that in Idaho due to the scarcity of water


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Were still on second series this
morning at 9 when I talked to my source.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Now the pictures are up on the blog, the Carruth property looks like a great place for a golf course J/ K people..Not a cloud in the sky, are you sure it's duck season in Texas ?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Gizmo just lined the Land Blind and 2 whistled the water. . .pretty salty. Just from reading some of the blog descriptions makes it hard, but looks like some work is choppy and other is smooooooottthhhh.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Gizmo just lined the Land Blind and 2 whistled the water. . .pretty salty. Just from reading some of the blog descriptions makes it hard, but looks like some work is choppy and other is smooooooottthhhh.


.
Take what is described on blog with grain of salt.
Earlier posted about test dogs water blind. Water: got to the top of the mound, out into flat; *missed the water* and got the bird. 
However, video just posted shows dog getting in the water fine, but had issues on land not mentioned

?????


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## hawgsalot (Nov 7, 2008)

Peter Balzer said:


> Gizmo just lined the Land Blind and 2 whistled the water. . .pretty salty. Just from reading some of the blog descriptions makes it hard, but looks like some work is choppy and other is smooooooottthhhh.


And the next dog out Sonic 1 whistled the water blind wow that's good work right there from them two!


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

As with my previous thread these are two blinds that anyone who has trained, trialed or judged there have likely done. Ron Ainly has spent several winters there so of the three judges he is by far the most familiar with the grounds.

Ronan Bill


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Breck said:


> .
> Take what is described on blog with grain of salt.
> Earlier posted about test dogs water blind. Water: got to the top of the mound, out into flat; *missed the water* and got the bird.
> However, video just posted shows dog getting in the water fine, but had issues on land not mentioned
> ...


I understand the limitations of the blog comments, I more basing it on the known merit of the dog and handler. Don't think Al Arthur would have not blown a whistle if one was needed to challenge the line.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

TESTS 3 & 4

I thought the judges got off to a commendable start with back to back marking tests.

Series 3 & 4 fell far short of being national caliber. As often happens with "filler tests"
which these two blinds were, all that is accomplished is meeting requirements in a marginal
way.

These chaps bring considerable experience to the table. It wasn't evident today -

W. D. Connor


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## todd walker (Mar 2, 2009)

How do I find out what grounds they will be on Wends??
want to go for the day, but no ideal where they will be
thanks


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

todd walker said:


> How do I find out what grounds they will be on Wends??
> want to go for the day, but no ideal where they will be
> thanks


.
rumor is at Mark Edwards tomorrow . Check nrc site for directions to property .


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## Sharon van der Lee (May 25, 2004)

canuckkiller said:


> TESTS 3 & 4
> 
> I thought the judges got off to a commendable start with back to back marking tests.
> 
> ...


Are you here to see the test? Sometimes hard to capture the flavour on a blog, but the team is doing a great job.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Sharon van der Lee said:


> Are you here to see the test? Sometimes hard to capture the flavour on a blog, but the team is doing a great job.


Look at the pictures and the video and less descriptions except to maybe find the wind to get the sense of the test. That team of judges know what's going on.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Where can I find a list of the owners and handlers?


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

*2016 nrc*

https://2016nrc.blogspot.com/

Here you go Ed, Look at the- Order of the draw


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## Kyle Bertram (Aug 22, 2006)

Sorry Owners weren't shown but they are here.

http://www.theretrievernews.com/2016-nrc-qualifiers.html


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## Riverwatch (Apr 22, 2013)

You can look at the event catalog-----once you open the second link Kyle posted, click on Nationals on the bar, then click on 2016 Bonham, and then click on Event Catalog.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Here is a list sorted by Handler...(sorry it is not bigger...but can't seem to get it to paste any larger than this)


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

5th series triple. My guess of setup. Should be pretty close.
.









Edit MR deeper than I thought. hangin out nothing better to do...........
.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> 5th series triple. My guess of setup. Should be pretty close.
> .
> 
> View attachment 37953


More than close, what you don't see is a grove of trees to the left of the MB which tends to attract dogs or at least it did in setup. I just looked at the test from Burns' drone camera, they strip mowed around the hillside which I think makes the test easier, before it was a sea of mixed prairie grasses, strips were mowed on either side of the middle bird which makes it decidedly easier to find the holding blind.


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## Ten (May 4, 2009)

wojo said:


> Where can I find a list of the owners and handlers?


http://topdognationalevents.azurewebsites.net/ViewCallbacks.aspx?eventid=6

Barb


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

This has got to be one of the warmer National Open's in quite some time..when I see pictures of contestants in short sleeve shirts, something isn't quite right, of course its only Wed. and you know what they say about the weather in NTEX...

Do we see a big cut after the 5th ? any guesses on the O/U of the number of dogs to the 6th


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> This has got to be one of the warmer National Open's in quite some time..when I see pictures of contestants in short sleeve shirts, something isn't quite right, of course its only Wed. and you know what they say about the weather in NTEX...
> 
> Do we see a big cut after the 5th ? any guesses on the O/U of the number of dogs to the 6th


76 in Denver, 65 in Chamberlain SD where I pheasant hunt. The boys from CO told me they were still training in the water and it is almost Thanksgiving.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

BonMallari said:


> This has got to be one of the warmer National Open's in quite some time..when I see pictures of contestants in short sleeve shirts, something isn't quite right, of course its only Wed. and you know what they say about the weather in NTEX...
> 
> Do we see a big cut after the 5th ? any guesses on the O/U of the number of dogs to the 6th


No doubt. Big changes ahead in the weather. Warm and calm today and then on to warm and windy and then to cold(er) and windy...

Weds Weather - High of 83 - Low of 58 - South wind at 10 MPH
Thurs Weather - High of 80 - low of 62 - South winds at 21 MPH
Friday Weather High of 62 - low of 36 - N/NW winds at 21 MPH
Saturday Weather - High of 61 low of 36 - South at 12 MPH


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

EdA said:


> 76 in Denver, 65 in Chamberlain SD where I pheasant hunt. The boys from CO told me they were still training in the water and it is almost Thanksgiving.


Same thing in Idaho, my brother drove thru Wyoming last week on the way home from a Missouri deer hunt and had clear weather and road conditions all the way home

I thought the Farmer's Almanac said something else, but its still early fall...


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

https://www.retrieverresults.com/National/National?RT=NO

you can sort the columns by owner, handler, dog age, etc.


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## todd walker (Mar 2, 2009)

would say big cut after 5th, was hard to tell what dogs could see as they were down the hill, birds were hard to see for me
some big hunts on long bird, and behind blind on 2nd, only saw a few dogs on 2nd bird stay wet past point, The bullet dog 
looked really good.


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

what are your guesses on call backs? I think they will drop 22 but that is just a wild ass guess from a long ways away.


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## Brian Daniels (May 21, 2011)

5th is rough this morning...


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## Ethompson63 (Sep 13, 2013)

Close. They dropped 18


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

land and water blind for 6th/7th. Looks like they are moving through pretty quickly.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Tobias said:


> land and water blind for 6th/7th. Looks like they are moving through pretty quickly.


Another combined series?


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Again, these are blinds that everyone that trains, trials or judges there On another note.......I have been colder in Bonham when it is 60 degrees with a wind then in Montana at 40 degrees. Its the humidity off of the gulf.

Ronan Bill


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Bill McKnight said:


> Again, these are blinds that everyone that trains, trials or judges there On another note.......I have been colder in Bonham when it is 60 degrees with a wind then in Montana at 40 degrees. Its the humidity off of the gulf.
> 
> Ronan Bill


I have two questions. 

1. You keep saying the above, so my question is this...do you think some of these dogs have seen these blinds before? Is that an advantage? 
2. On the water blind, does the dog have to come back through the water as well?


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

birddogn_tc said:


> I have two questions.
> 
> 1. You keep saying the above, so my question is this...do you think some of these dogs have seen these blinds before? Is that an advantage?
> 2. On the water blind, does the dog have to come back through the water as well?



1. Possibly
1a.doubtful
2. Yes unless they pick up using an rtv


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## Mike Berube (Feb 8, 2003)

Thanks to whoever created the "Labels" section on the right hand side of the blog page this year. Very easy to follow all the dogs cumulative work with a simple "click" on any dog number.


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Yes, I believe some have seen these setups before.....but not in this context. Roosters , multiple fliers in the same series , etc. I do think the handlers have a bit of an advantage on the blinds.....the same advantages I have when trials are held on my place. To be frank, I commenting on the lack of imagination on the judges part. That said they are getting answers and separation which is what they want and need.

Ronan Bill


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

birddogn_tc said:


> I have two questions.
> 
> 1. You keep saying the above, so my question is this...do you think some of these dogs have seen these blinds before? Is that an advantage?
> 2.* On the water blind, does the dog have to come back through the water as well?*


No. Unless the judge specifically instructs.
And, they almost never do. Because, time rules.

More often they instruct, pick up your dog on land.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Makes me wonder if they feel time will be an issue for future series.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Tobias said:


> Makes me wonder if they feel time will be an issue for future series.


I doubt it.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

3 series to go. Marking set ups. 2 days to do that, with 40 or so dogs. Very doable.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> 3 series to go. Marking set ups. 2 days to do that, with 40 or so dogs. Very doable.


The complication is two moves, 8th series land quad = 7 hours then a big move = 2 hours, another big move between 9 and 10, hello Sunday morning?


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

EdA said:


> The complication is two moves, 8th series land quad = 7 hours then a big move = 2 hours, another big move between 9 and 10, hello Sunday morning?


I don't know, Ed. All I said was...very doable.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> I don't know, Ed. All I said was...very doable.


Doable without moving, with three series of marks and two big moves difficult at best.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

EdA said:


> Doable without moving, with three series of marks and two big moves difficult at best.


To finish by Sat? Ok.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> To finish by Sat? Ok.


Yes almost no one wants to go into Sunday, many workers have Sunday travel plans, a Sunday finish means a diminished crowd and sparse support for the marquee event of the retriever field trial year. No celebrating the new National Champion as everyone will be packed with motors running ready to head home for Thanksgiving. There are many who have been here for two weeks including the Chairman, Chief Marshall, several committee Chairman, and more than a few committee members who were here for setup.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

This national has been difficult to follow assess and identify accurately the relative work 
remotely via the computer/internet. Part of this has been untimely clear presentation of
work/results by the RFTN. Initially the first two series got the trial off to a good start.
The following blinds did not compare and did not provide adequate attrition.

Now, after 5 days 40 dogs remain. That is manageable over two remaining days.

Projecting 12 Finalists including the winner, 28 dogs would reflect drops hypothetically
for series 8 and 9 - all day Friday and several hours Saturday leading to the 10th Saturday
P. M. with hypothetically 12 Finalists.

Pre-Trial training and good logistics should result in that, plus utilizing prudent clock management and 
projected effective attrition gleaned from experience (training dogs and judging) are all
key to getting this done.

The intangible of a 'lock-up-" always lurks. That threat usually is a product of a lack of
judge's acumen and experience. 

Considering the expanse and flexibility of these grounds this trial should end Saturday
with a Winner.

W. D. Connor


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

There are 20 hours of daylight remaining for a Saturday finish, unless something changes at least 3 hours will be lost to moving to different areas. That leaves 17 hours for 3 sets of marks two of which involve water. 6-7 of those hours will be needed to complete the 8th.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeCN3Qzjqnw#t=88

the 8th series


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

One thing that can speed things up and at a National you have enough people to do it - and we did it a few time at Mike's ranch in Montgomery - is that the 9th can be setting up right now so that its is ready to go when the move comes. We did this when the move was a good ways. Although I remember one time when we were ready to rock and roll with the next test (guns, birds, blinds brushed, line setup) and call backs took over 1 hour.


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

Ron judged a previous National in Texas, and I have judged with him. He is not one to drag his feet. They will get finished


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

If I counted right 19 have ran with 8 handles so far if that continues and they come back with 24 dogs I think they are fine even with a hr move. We are all just being arm chair quarterbacks! I have ran under two of those judges and I'm sure they are very capable of making the bus run on time!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the string of Re runs and no birds is not helping the judges nor the contestants. Hope they have enough flyers left to use two in the quad for the 10th


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## Randy Spangler (Oct 7, 2007)

Just received word from down at the trial that they are done for the day.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

30% dogs getting no birds, some twice, is kind of high. 
Bet some handlers wished judges had called no bird for their iffy flyer too.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Randy Spangler said:


> Just received word from down at the trial that they are done for the day.


WTH..happy hour doesn't start for another two hours...even on the Alan Jackson clock


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

*No birds*



BonMallari said:


> the string of Re runs and no birds is not helping the judges nor the contestants. Hope they have enough flyers left to use two in the quad for the 10th


BON - I COUNT 9 (in the 8th) AND I MAY MISSED ONE OR TWO.
Not like the old days -

Bill Connor


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Raymond Little said:


> 1. Possibly
> 1a.doubtful
> 2. Yes unless they pick up using an rtv


Say what??


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Grounds location for 9th Series
33°37'52.74"N, 96° 6'21.77"W
.
My callback # guess 23


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Breck said:


> 30% dogs getting no birds, some twice, is kind of high.
> Bet some handlers wished judges had called no bird for their iffy flyer too.


Checked weather bug and confirmed gust to 27 mph, can't imagine trying to shoot a flyer with those gusts.


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## Jan Helgoth (Apr 20, 2008)

Raymond Little said:


> Checked weather bug and confirmed gust to 27 mph, can't imagine trying to shoot a flyer with those gusts.


It's not just the wind - I think it is extremely sad and unfortunate that they have had an extraordinary amount of "no birds" on the flyers every day in every marking series of this National. I think it is especially hard on the high-flying, younger dogs. A quad with two flyers twice in one hour surely messes with their head. 

I can't help but think that we never have that many no-bird flyers in a 90+dog weekend trial. I know that Ravenna is a lot more windy and cold than down here where we are, but even the local trials up there don't have this magnitude of a problem.

So what is the solution? Do we need a larger gunning pool so that the gunners don't tire out? Do we need to open it up to the local skeet shooting club to come gun for us for relief shifts?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Do not blame the guns for no birds, the wind, the thrower, and unrealistic expectations by the judges for a pheasant flier that if it goes 10 feet longer than their desires was a no bird. No fly aways other than the the straight up throw which if shot would have fallen behind the guns in line with the long mark. Only those who have experience throwing and shooting pheasants should have a legitimate reason to question the gunning, gallery and internet critics should not apply.


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## Jan Helgoth (Apr 20, 2008)

I appreciate the National Gunners and the time that they volunteer but they are not asked to do a whole lot more than we ask of our weekend volunteers. I'm just saying that our weekend volunteer FT gunners are awesome and miss very few birds (yes, we use pheasants, especially in our Fall FT's). But then, those weekend volunteer FT gunners are younger and probably have better vision, greater mobility and sharper reflexes, Ed %). 

I also think there are probably a lot of people, including me, that have gone Pheasant Hunting a lot and understand the concepts of shooting them.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Ran a 70 dog Amateur with 36 NO Bird duck flyers.MD. 1994, Triple 1st land series, . Used four gunner teams (2 guns/unique thrower). The worst gunning I have ever experienced or seen. I had only one no-bird flyer Ran one dog. Some dogs had multiple No birds. Suck it up folks...the vagaries of big boy competition


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## Jim Harvey (Feb 7, 2007)

EdA said:


> Do not blame the guns for no birds, the wind, the thrower, and unrealistic expectations by the judges for a pheasant flier that if it goes 10 feet longer than their desires was a no bird. No fly aways other than the the straight up throw which if shot would have fallen behind the guns in line with the long mark. Only those who have experience throwing and shooting pheasants should have a legitimate reason to question the gunning, gallery and internet critics should not apply.


Great post EdA!

No birds come with the territory like it or not. Odd that some others find fault with a group of people that give up so much and gunning in 25 mph winds.

80 percent of the field has been dropped yet "the cream of the crop" still seems to be playin. I am guessing they have seen a no bird or two in their days.

Thank you gunners for your time and effort.


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## Dan Hurst (Nov 30, 2007)

Never smart to insult men with guns. It's like voting, if you don't vote, you really have no grounds to complain about an outcome. Same with work and resources, if you're sitting on your ass at home and complain about those who are giving so much to be there, I really think you ought to keep your thoughtlessness to yourself.


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2008)

I know a few of the guys that travel to the Nationals to shoot. They shoot at the east coast field trials, on their own dime by the way. To question their abilities is beyond ridiculous. But then again, the gallery in Field Trials is usually harboring the odd malcontent. So it's not surprising to hear bitching and moaning.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Jan Helgoth said:


> I think the National Gunners are not asked to do a whole lot more than we ask of our weekend volunteers. I'm just saying that our weekend volunteer FT gunners are awesome and miss very few birds (yes, we use pheasants, especially in our Fall FT's). But then, those weekend volunteer FT gunners are younger and probably have better vision, greater mobility and sharper reflexes, Ed %).
> 
> I also think there are probably a lot of people, including me, that have gone Pheasant Hunting a lot and understand the concepts of shooting them.


Understand this concept, the no birds were not due to missed birds, during my shift we had 5 no birds, one because of a dead bird throw that the judges deemed too long, one because of a popper gun misfire, one because the thrower threw the pheasant straight up into a 25-30 mph wind, and 2 of our best fliers who fell 10 feet beyond an arbitray point the judges had identified.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I know wingers can have their issues. .. but I have always wondered why field trials don't use them? (At least for dead bird throws)


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## Jan Helgoth (Apr 20, 2008)

I am not insulting anyone or taking away anything from their great volunteer contributions and not everything is always just about you and what happened when you were shooting today.

There have been beautiful, windless days this week yet more no-bird flyers than ever. I just feel sorry for the great, young marking dogs - it should not have to be so much about when you run and having to stand in holding blinds and watching the birds multiple times. I just think there are factors that can be improved to make it more fair all day long for everybody.

Why is it so awful to suggest that we need some young blood in the shooting ranks? I am not advocating getting rid of anyone - I'm just suggesting that it would behoove some to have a backup. Why is everyone so against new, younger people joining the ranks...or should I say "club"?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jan Helgoth said:


> Why do you guys have to go so ******* on me? This is supposed to be a friendly discussion. Why is it so awful to suggest that we need some young blood in the shooting ranks? I am not advocating getting rid of anyone - I'm just suggesting that it would behoove all to have some backups. Why is everyone so against new, younger people joining the ranks...or should I say "club"?


I highly doubt the no-birds were due to old guys loosing their touch. I think Ed explained it very well, lots of moving parts in a big National marking set up.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Jan Helgoth said:


> Why do you guys have to go so ******* on me? This is supposed to be a friendly discussion. Why is it so awful to suggest that we need some young blood in the shooting ranks? I am not advocating getting rid of anyone - I'm just suggesting that it would behoove all to have some backups. Why is everyone so against new, younger people joining the ranks...or should I say "club"?


How many people do you know who are willing to give up 10-14 days twice a year and pay their own expenses to pop at dead bird stations and shoot a few fliers. The National Championship Stake has some issues but the guns are not one of them. The NRC is in Texas, I did not see you there helping.


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## Jan Helgoth (Apr 20, 2008)

Some people in FT's work for a living. Not everyone is, or should have to be, retired or own their own business or work for daddy at a job they never have to be at to be included in the gunner pool. 

We have a lot of younger guys in our training groups that are doing great with their dogs and are fantastic shooters and could take off work one or two days plus a weekend although not a whole week. Why can' t they join the shooters as backups for a day as a learning experience? Why is the only thing they ever want to give to the young guys is throwing or planting a dead bird....the boring stuff.

I am advocating that we be more inclusive and welcoming and supportive of these younger folks who want to get involved and do something fun for at least a little while but are held back because of some of the old-timers with their rules and traditions that just serve to keep the younger people on the sidelines or at home. We need to update our thinking and find better ways to do things instead of staying in the "it's always been done this way" mentality. We are going to need these younger guys in the very near future and we need to be nicer to them and not alienate them like some people seem to want to do because "they haven't paid their dues yet like I have".


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Tobias said:


> I know wingers can have their issues. .. but I have always wondered why field trials don't use them? (At least for dead bird throws)


Because of the arm and body movement of the thrower on Field Trial distance marks, imagine a winger on a long retired 400 yard mark.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Interesting coincidence I thought. 18 dogs to the ninth series with 17 different handlers. They each have one dog with Alan Pleasant having two.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Not being there, test dog videos are much of what we had to go on. Craig's dog did a respectable job this week. Video of the 9th this morning interesting how dog initially nearly stepped on LR bird missing it by just 1 yard. 
Good luck to dogs still playing, especially Juice.


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## Jan Helgoth (Apr 20, 2008)

Good luck to all of the awesome dogs still standing especially Ali, Dottie, Colby, Mickey, Ivy and Juice! It's going to be tough to pick from this year's group as they were all so great on so many things at different times this week! The RFTN Blog was a fun read.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Jan Helgoth said:


> Some people in FT's work for a living. Not everyone is, or should have to be, retired or own their own business or work for daddy at a job they never have to be at to be included in the gunner pool.
> 
> We have a lot of younger guys in our training groups that are doing great with their dogs and are fantastic shooters and could take off work one or two days plus a weekend although not a whole week. Why can' t they join the shooters as backups for a day as a learning experience? Why is the only thing they ever want to give to the young guys is throwing or planting a dead bird....the boring stuff.
> 
> I am advocating that we be more inclusive and welcoming and supportive of these younger folks who want to get involved and do something fun for at least a little while but are held back because of some of the old-timers with their rules and traditions that just serve to keep the younger people on the sidelines or at home. We need to update our thinking and find better ways to do things instead of staying in the "it's always been done this way" mentality. We are going to need these younger guys in the very near future and we need to be nicer to them and not alienate them like some people seem to want to do because "they haven't paid their dues yet like I have".


Look at what you just posted & say the whole sport hasn't turned that way . RAC regards!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Rooting for rusty and ali!!!!!

Ronan bill


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Three no birds for Hudson? Geesh poor dog. Poor Wayne!


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

This is killing me. Hudson is my special buddy, the sweetest cutest dog in the world. Poor Hudson, poor Wayne, poor Bill and Pat, and poor me!!!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Becky Mills said:


> This is killing me. Hudson is my special buddy, the sweetest cutest dog in the world. Poor Hudson, poor Wayne, poor Bill and Pat, and poor me!!!


I can't imagine how I would feel as a Handler getting three no birds... I'd be like .mm just kill me now
LOL
Hope they come back and hammer the marks.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

If you have a dog that can handle the pressure of 3 no birds...well... maybe they then have an advantage
..https://2016nrc.blogspot.com/2016/11/rerun-7-fc-afc-mckinley-first-ascender_5.html?m=1

I wondered when the third one happened if the team might hammer the test.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

The picture of Granny Lou's Bed & Breakfast looks just like the house in 
"Best Little Whorehouse in Texas".


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

From what i can tell ed is right on as to why the many no birds...tight area to land a live bird makes for tough throwing and shooting and makes for many no birds. Yes, very hard on everyone with any no bird. Go ali and rusty!!!!!

Ronan bill


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

looks like they are going to go across town back over to the Carruth ranch for the 10th..I figure they have about 2.5 good hours of light left of they can get birds in the air by 1:30 CST...


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> looks like they are going to go across town back over to the Carruth ranch for the 10th..I figure they have about 2.5 good hours of light left of they can get birds in the air by 1:30 CST...


You make is sound like they're getting on the 610 loop going to Pearland from north 45


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Can someone who knows tell me why Ali was dropped? I read his blog posts again and see no handles or other egregious errors. Yet there are dogs with big hunts (as described by blog) and handles in the 10th.


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## jrrichar (Dec 17, 2013)

2tall said:


> Can someone who knows tell me why Ali was dropped? I read his blog posts again and see no handles or other egregious errors. Yet there are dogs with big hunts (as described by blog) and handles in the 10th.


No one will be able to really tell you except the judges. 9 cumulative series of work gives you a good idea for consideration or not. A handle if done swiftly and in the area or one large hunt and all other marks within the AOF do not make for worse jobs then a dog with average work. Unless you see their pages you won't know. In that field, your margin for error is slim and that error is based on everything. Blog posts are just that. 

I appreciated the segment on wonderful dogs that qualified and passed away before being able to compete. My heart breaks for Robby Bickley who lost Manny just before the NRC after a courageous fight. To not be able to run a dog that you train and trial with in your own backyard adds insult to injury. To Manny RIP.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Any posting re the 10th series?


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## JKOttman (Feb 3, 2004)

http://2016nrc.blogspot.com/search?


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## Mike Berube (Feb 8, 2003)

The handlers leaving the line after the 10th series are holding a white card. Looks like a 3 x 5 index card? What is it?

Thanks.


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## TonyRodgz (Feb 8, 2010)

Mike Berube said:


> The handlers leaving the line after the 10th series are holding a white card. Looks like a 3 x 5 index card? What is it?
> 
> Thanks.


I believe it means they are finalist. I'd seen it before


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## lorneparker1 (Mar 22, 2015)

Well done to all the finalists!


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Mickey gets the win?


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## Hotchocolate (Jun 24, 2011)

Ad the wnner is #89. FC-AFC Windy City's Mighty Mouse, "Mickey", LM, Charlie Hines


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Congrats to Charlie Hines & 2016 NFC Micky!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Doug Main said:


> Congrats to Charlie Hines & 2016 NFC Micky!


Double that from me


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

And me.... Congrats Charlie and Mickey


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

Great job Charley and Micky....especial nice have an armature win!

Ronan Bill


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## Boomer (May 13, 2006)

Me as well. NFC GIZMO


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## Jim Harvey (Feb 7, 2007)

*Great job Charlie and Mickey!*


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Congrats Charlie & Mickey


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## DianeL (May 4, 2004)

Congratulations to Charlie and NFC Mickey!!!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Congratulations to Charlie Hines and Mickey!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bill McKnight said:


> Great job Charley and Micky....especial nice have an armature win!
> 
> Ronan Bill


That would be an amateur


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## Howard (Jan 14, 2003)

Nice!! Congrats Charlie & Mickey.
Howard


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## Lpgar (Mar 31, 2005)

Congratulations Charlie and Mickey


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Congrats to the team of Mr. Hines and Mickey. Finalists in the 2016 NARC and then winning the NRC a few months later. Wow.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Congratulations to Charlie and Mickey!


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Dave Farrar said:


> Congrats to the team of Mr. Hines and Mickey. Finalists in the 2016 NARC and then winning the NRC a few months later. Wow.


They were also finalists in both the 2015 National and National Amateur. He's been pretty consistent.


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## Cade Gentry (Jan 17, 2005)

Does anyone know what might have happened to Bobby Lanes dog "Ali"? Test descriptions for the 9th series show the dog as completing the test. Callbacks do not show the dog as dropped after the 9th but he did not run the 10th. Just curious. I hope it was not an injury that late in the week.


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## LESTER LANGLEY (Jun 12, 2008)

Cade, 
He did pick up all the birds in the 9th but had some rather peculiar hunts on a couple of the birds. My PERSONAL perception is that he seemed uneasy about something coming right off the mat. He's a hell of a dog and he had run a GREAT field trial up to that point. There was a lot left to go but Ali was "in the clubhouse" going into the 9th in my personal opinion. I'll be interested to hear Ryans take on it later. Something just didn't look right from the start to me. I was not on line and obviously not standing over him. These were just my observations from a distance. He's one of the few dogs that I was able to see all of his work.


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## b.asire (Sep 28, 2015)

I was wondering the same thing! Anyone know what his stud fee is?


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

Ali's stud fee is $2500 last I have heard.


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## KEITH L (Nov 2, 2005)

congratulations Charlie and mickey!!!!!!!

keith l.


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## Randy Spangler (Oct 7, 2007)

Mike Berube said:


> The handlers leaving the line after the 10th series are holding a white card. Looks like a 3 x 5 index card? What is it?
> 
> Thanks.


Congratulations to Charlie and Micky! Fantastic job. 
I believe the white card you are referring to is actually a. Envelope that Dean from Purina hands you as you are coming off line. It is the coupon for the Purina dog food that they give to the finalists. At least that is when we got it in the National Amateur. 
Again congratulations to all the competitors and the whole crew that put on this National! It appeared to be First Class!


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## Frank Jones (Feb 17, 2004)

Mickey is an awesome dog and he and Charlie are a TEAM! Congratulations!

rita and Frank


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## Gary M (Dec 5, 2008)

Congratulations to Mr Hines and Mickey! Don't know them but that is some accomplishment! And congratulations to all the finalists ... just to be in the running for an opportunity to be called the "National Field Champion" is something to be proud of!


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

congratulations to Charlie and NFC-AFC Mickey


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Cade Gentry said:


> Does anyone know what might have happened to Bobby Lanes dog "Ali"? Test descriptions for the 9th series show the dog as completing the test. Callbacks do not show the dog as dropped after the 9th but he did not run the 10th. Just curious. I hope it was not an injury that late in the week.


Big hunts in both the 8th and 9th, the Blog is sanitized.


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*​Congrats to Charlie and Mickey!!*


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## Cade Gentry (Jan 17, 2005)

Thank you Ed. Congratulations to Mr. Hines and Mickey on such a wonderful accomplishment.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

With Mickey's win, how many National Champions has Carbon sired ? His bitch line is equally impressive..


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## TonyRodgz (Feb 8, 2010)

BonMallari said:


> With Mickey's win, how many National Champions has Carbon sired ? His bitch line is equally impressive..


3 NFC's
NFC Chopper (NFC FC AFC Clubmead's Road Warrior)
NFC Emmit (NFC FC AFC Watermark's Running Back)
NFC Mickey (NFC FC AFC Windy City's Mighty Mouse)


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## TonyRodgz (Feb 8, 2010)

EdA said:


> That would be an amateur


First NFC handled by an amateur in 9 years. Ken Neil and NFC Windy did it in 2007


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Does Guide count? NFTCH and NAFTCH by an amateur.
Big congratulations to Mr Hines and Mickey.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

EdA said:


> .... the Blog is sanitized.


Ed,

Thanks for keeping it real, that made me laugh. Your perspective is always appreciated.

Congratulations to Mr. Hines.

Tom


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

TonyRodgz said:


> 3 NFC's
> NFC Chopper (NFC FC AFC Clubmead's Road Warrior)
> NFC Emmit (NFC FC AFC Watermark's Running Back)
> NFC Mickey (NFC FC AFC Windy City's Mighty Mouse)


Thanks for the info



labsforme said:


> Does Guide count? NFTCH and NAFTCH by an amateur.
> Big congratulations to Mr Hines and Mickey.


Better believe it counts....


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

The video of the tenth series. I think it is safe to say 90% of RTF'ers would love to have access to training grounds/water like this.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_nIxCJ5q7M


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Those ponds are the CL-2 ponds so named because they are a copy of Rex Carr's CL-2 (Carr-Lab 2 ponds) in Escalon CA designed and built by Rex and now owned by Billy Sargenti


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Ed, can you tell me if they are/stay naturally filled?

Love to dream about training on water like this. someday!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ponds are no deeper than 3 feet and require supplemental well or irrigation water


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