# Delivery to hand question – AKC Senior test



## justme (Sep 26, 2012)

Delivery to hand question – AKC Senior test when a dog returns to the line can he/she hold the bird in its mouth while the blind is planted (the judges have the dogs turn around so they can’t see the bird boy plant the blind).


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

why?
your taking a chance of the dog droping it and not picking it up or you and dog getting into a hissy. do not give the judges something to judge. get the bird from Rover and get it out of your hands.
and then the ever looming chance of some do-gooder pointing out they are sure you are training on the grounds.
get the bird, get your hands free, line up your dog.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Ken Bora said:


> why?
> your taking a chance of the dog droping it and not picking it up or you and dog getting into a hissy.


1000% agree.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I too am interested WHY you would want to do this at a TEST??

Gooser


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Maybe.

The judges might say that the marking portion of the test ends before they allow you behind the holding blind. 

Just a hunch, but is there some underlying obedience issue with the dog? (i.e. some high rolling dogs are a handful at the line except for when they have a bird in their mouth).


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

justme said:


> Delivery to hand question – AKC Senior test when a dog returns to the line can he/she hold the bird in its mouth while the blind is planted.


I know perfectly well where you're coming from and yes you can have the dog hold the bird in its mouth while they plant the blind if you so choose just remember you are under judgment the entire time.......


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Delivery to hand question – AKC Senior test when a dog returns to the line can he/she hold the bird in its mouth while the blind is planted (the judges have the dogs turn around so they can’t see the bird boy plant the blind).


If the judge asks for then you have to give it to them,,,but if they let you go back into the holding blind with it (which has been my experience mostly and they don't ask for it until the blind is ready,,,,, then,,,,, if you find it advantageous to do so then take advantage of it. Good handling at a test is not necessarily good handling during training.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Scott Shafer said:


> I know perfectly well where you're coming from and yes you can have the dog hold the bird in its mouth while they plant the blind if you so choose just remember you are under judgment the entire time.......


 UNTIL the judge asks for the bird....


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Bridget Bodine said:


> UNTIL the judge asks for the bird....


I have never been asked by a judge to take the bird out of my dogs mouth......


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I had a judge ask for the bird last month . I have a busy dog and was going to let her hold it and the judge asked me for it. It was at Rover's Content, in Brandywine...


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Scott Shafer said:


> I have never been asked by a judge to take the bird out of my dogs mouth......


Me either. NOR have I ever asked for the bird from a handler when I judge.

You know bad mouth habits when you see them. If a dog is gonna freeze or be sticky, its usually VERY visible. 

I have run MANY MANY tests where you have been asked to "receive the bird" in the holding blind AND I have set up MANY MANY tests where I have asked the handler to "receive the bird" in the holding blind.

I did drop a Master handler once for a tug of war that went on in the holding blind under one of those scenarios.

WRL


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

To answer your question, yes you can. and it can be a good technique with some dogs. Only you would know what's going to work for you and your dog not someone else. I have some dogs that do well in that situation with me just taking the bird and holding in front of them so they stay focused on it and keeps me from getting into an obedience battle. When the blinds are ready I had the bird to the judge and proceed. In almost 12 years of HT I've never had a judge ask me for the bird. If you wanted you could hold all the birds and then hand them to the judge when you leave. But I wouldn't advise that!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Scott Shafer said:


> I have never been asked by a judge to take the bird out of my dogs mouth......


I have. In a hunt test in exactly the sceenario described. I received my dog in the holding blind. He was all antsy from the marks and was being unruley in the holding blind all fired up and not sitting. I told him to sit before I asked him for the bird. He was bouncing all over and the judge asked for the bird. I told the dog to sit and he sorta did for a second or so. I said give and he gave me the bird and then went snapping after it when I handed it to the judge. If I'd gotten him sitting steadily, I don't think he would have followed the bird.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Howard N said:


> I have. In a hunt test in exactly the sceenario described. I received my dog in the holding blind. He was all antsy from the marks and was being unruley in the holding blind all fired up and not sitting. I told him to sit before I asked him for the bird. He was bouncing all over and the judge asked for the bird. I told the dog to sit and he sorta did for a second or so. I said give and he gave me the bird and then went snapping after it when I handed it to the judge. If I'd gotten him sitting steadily, I don't think he would have followed the bird.


I usually tell the handler I'll take the bird when they get into the blind but don't expect it until they are ready ...never rush a handler , if there is a lengthy battle that is another story....Steve S


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

Going back to the question "why would you?", if you have a worry about this situation you are better off working on what ever problem that you are worried about before you enter any more stakes. 

Bert


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

rbr said:


> Going back to the question "why would you?", *if you have a worry about this situation you are better off working on what ever problem that you are worried about before you enter any more stakes*.
> 
> Bert


and todays gold nugget award goes to the greatness of Bert!


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

As a Senior judge I try to let the handler set his dog up for the memory bird if he has the duck behind him. Some young dogs will be distracted from me moving around behind the handler. When the dog launches for the second bird I reach and take the bird from the handlers hand. The reason for this is when I used to run my Maxx dog he got very antsy anyway without anyone moving behind him. I think that I am showing the handler the courtesy that was shown me by some judges that I really look up to. When returning from the last mark i try to have my blind planter close enough to plant the blind as the dog is returning. If not I will follow the lead shown by the handler as whether he takes the bird or lets the dog hold it. I am however judging whether your dog is chomping or messing the bird up as long as they have thee bird in their mouth.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Its been awhile since I ran Senior. But,, the way I remember the one I have ran,,, the judge had you move to location where the dog could not see the blind be planted, as the dog returned from the memory mark..

So,, the dog just was called back to the handelr at a different location.. And yes it has at times been NEAR a holding blind that you just stepped behind when the dog returned..

I still dont under stand all this talk..

Gooser


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

This is a individual judge choice so ask and clarify at the handlers meeting.


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## Christine Maddox (Mar 9, 2009)

The original post does not say that the handler/dog are asked to step back into the holding blind while the blind is being planted. There are many times when there is already a dog in the holding blind and the judges instruct the handler to just "turn" the dog so he can't see the birdboy planting the blind in the field. Under these circumstances and depending on the handlers decision to do so, it can be benificial to let the dog hold the bird so he doesn't want to turn back around to view the field. It all boils down to knowing your dog and what would work best given the scenario.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

FinnLandR said:


> SNG question here: Would the purpose of doing this be to keep the dog occupied, and thus calmer in the blind?


I know a person that will take off his hat and have the dog hold it.
I think he got asked not to do it one time.


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## Christine Maddox (Mar 9, 2009)

Delivering the bird to hand is part of the requirements, so holding it becomes part of the test. Holding a glove or hat (or any other object) could be seen as using a training device thereby making it unallowable. It just depends on the judges on what you can and can't do.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> he original post does not say that the handler/dog are asked to step back into the holding blind while the blind is being planted. There are many times when there is already a dog in the holding blind and the judges instruct the handler to just "turn" the dog so he can't see the birdboy planting the blind in the field. Under these circumstances and depending on the handlers decision to do so, it can be benificial to let the dog hold the bird so he doesn't want to turn back around to view the field. It all boils down to knowing your dog and what would work best given the scenario.


perfect example and done it many times. 
Pete


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## sterregold (May 27, 2005)

The practise can definitely have benefits, but if the judges want things done in a certain sequence, that's what you are going to have to do. Ran a Master water test in which there was a delayed triple with a poison bird blind. Two marks down, run the blind, and when the dog returned, you were to set the dog up, and when you took the blind bird from the dog they would fire the third mark off. I would rather have had my dog hold the bird while the mark was shot, but that wasn't what the judges wanted, so she was distracted following the bird away instead of watching the mark go down. Missed it entirely. Revealed a hole in our training, and gave us something to work on!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm gonna just throw this out there, there seems to be an assumption that there is an issue with the dog - I try and leave the bird in mouth as long as I can especially if you do not return to a holding blind. I also feel rushing to pull a bird out of a dog's mouth aggravates issues, it's better to be methodical on delivery and I highly dislike judges who crowd and rush the process. As long as the dog is not mouthing the bird what does a judge care? There is no rule that says they have to give the bird up right then and there, I'd rather see a clean delivery than a rushed one like Howard described.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I know of one particular dog who is hard to move once you take the bird out of his mouth. You line him up, move him how you want then take the bird, then he's pretty much froze, so you better line him up when he's got the bird. I guess he was trained this way, I see plus and minus in this way of training, as a froze non-swinging dog facing the right direction is nice, but a froze dog who's a little off is not. I believe the owner let's him keep the bird until he's lined up on the blind. I've never been asked for a bird by a judge, unless other stickiness issues were present.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Christine Maddox said:


> The original post does not say that the handler/dog are asked to step back into the holding blind while the blind is being planted. There are many times when there is already a dog in the holding blind and the judges instruct the handler to just "turn" the dog so he can't see the birdboy planting the blind in the field. Under these circumstances and depending on the handlers decision to do so, it can be benificial to let the dog hold the bird so he doesn't want to turn back around to view the field. It all boils down to knowing your dog and what would work best given the scenario.


Maybe the OP can clear it up, but that's the way I took it as well. I would just sit the dog in a front sitting position, dog's back to the test and recieve the duck from there. I don't really know the point of the question.

John


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Maybe the OP can clear it up, but that's the way I took it as well. I would just sit the dog in a front sitting position, dog's back to the test and recieve the duck from there. I don't really know the point of the question.
> 
> John


Absolutly!!!

I just dont understand all the talk???

Dog comes back to me. Dog sitting at heel.
I take bird from dog.

Turn dog to a front finish.

If my dog turns its head and looks... What entity doidnt plan the mechanics of the test well?

If the judges dont want the dog to see the blind planted,,,, Then take measure so that CANT happen..

have another holding blind away from the line,,and have the Handler move to it as the dogreturns,, and then recieve the dog in the holding blind.. As soon as MY dog gets there,, I'm takin the bird...

If the OP is talkin about some Training ritual he goes through,, then I agree with what someone very early in the thread said to the effect that Yes,, you can require the dog to hold the biird,, but remember,, you are under judgement during that period of time. If the dog starts to mouth, drop and wont pick up, or,, if you have to Coax him to do so,, I wont take that chance..


I really dont understand this thread... As usual ,, I am lost...

Gooser


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I have a very busy dog, who is always ready to go, "come on come on, ...what's goin on , lets get it on" When the judges have you receive the dog in the holding blind, my dog will sit quieter if she has a bird in her mouth, in fact she is pretty patient. Once I take the bird, she is trying to sneak a peek at what is going on and I have to stay on her more. 
Last month, I was standing there with Olive holding the bird, waiting for the judge to say "ok" to pick up the blind, while I was standing there looking at the dog, the judge said " I will take the bird" aww fooey...ok ........
I THINK this is what the OP is talking about


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

MooseGooser said:


> Absolutly!!!
> 
> I just dont understand all the talk???
> 
> ...


That was my take as well, I can't imagine a test set up this way (without a holding blind) especially in a stake with high #s. It's an unneceessary issue created by a poorly thought out test.

I have, however, done this in training many times.

Bert


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Keep in mind also, that the op stated SENIOR test

a double with a blind.

I believe the blind planted outside the test ,by rule.


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Alright if you run the blind first can you let your dog hold the bird while the marks go off.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Here's what the rule book says:

(4) Delivery of the bird in each level of Hunting Tests must be made to the handler directly, upon return from the retrieve; in any Test it should be given up willingly. A dog shall not drop the bird before delivering it, freeze, or be unwilling to give it up. It shall not jump after the bird once the handler has taken it. A faulty delivery may, depending on the Test, range from a slight lowering of the Trainability score for an isolated offense, to the withholding of a Qualifying score for a severe freeze or “hardmouth.”


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think Mr D just ended the discussion..

Thanks Tom!

Gooser


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Nah no end to discussion the rule just gives grey area, after all Define "Directly" and what is the real spirit of the rule? To me the rule has two parts. Directly means dog comes directly back to handler, after a retrieve and doesn't screw around in the field. Then the second part of the rule is to give up bird willingly and promptly when asked, until he is asked the dog is responsible to hold on to the bird. If the handler doesn't ask, until he puts down his gun, finishes his PB&J sandwich or even lines the dog up on a blind. Yet the dog gives up the bird promptly, when the handler actually asks for it. What difference does timing make?

If a handler doesn't ask for the bird and chooses to use a well taught responsible hold to his advantage "Smart Handler", It might be refreshing to put something beside DAH in a book


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

This is ONE of the reasons I dont particuarly care if I ever run a Hunt test again..

People take a pretty straight forward rule,, then "Interpret" the thing so they can add silly requirements to the test.... Hold till I eat my sammach! Give me a break!! have more respect for the dog thats workin its arese off for you!!! Please!!

" Directly" in this rules connotation to me means,, Bring the bird straight back to the HANDLER... Not try and give it to the judges,,, visit the bird rack,, or prance around proudley with the thingg.. It means to me,,, Dog get your arse back to my side,, and deliver the bird.... We Got more birds commin in,,, and I anit gonna be eatin a sammich!! I want the bird in my hand,,,, and YOU,, dog be ready for the next.....

Thats what HUNTIN is!!!

NOT askin the dog to turn 3 times around the holdin blind,, while the judges discuss whats happen next,,, and THEN OH,,, By the way,, you dog can NOW let go a the bird!! What a CROCK!!!!

What about a Very HOT day,, and really BAD birds Ya see at hunt tests??? Ya wanna disrespect that dog and make him hold it??? WHY?????

Just to see him drop it,, and not pick it up, so you can send him Packin???? WOW!!!



These are SENIOR LEVEL DOGS!!!!!!!

BUt,,, as the previous poster said,,, the silly discussion continues.... Wheres the OP??

Gooser


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Directly back to handler. Dog can hold the bird as long as you want it to or until your asked for the bird by the judge. then the dog should release the bird to the handler.

/Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> Here's what the rule book says:
> 
> (4) *Delivery of the bird* in each level of Hunting Tests *must be made to the handler directly, upon return from the retrieve*; in any Test it should be given up willingly. A dog shall not drop the bird before delivering it, freeze, or be unwilling to give it up. It shall not jump after the bird once the handler has taken it. A faulty delivery may, depending on the Test, range from a slight lowering of the Trainability score for an isolated offense, to the withholding of a Qualifying score for a severe freeze or “hardmouth.”




So,, dog comes back directly to the handelr,, and UPON THE RETURN delivers the bird!!

I dont think I would Judge with someone so silly as to NOT understand what that means,, OR<<<< want to apply his ego,,, and require the dog and Handler unnecessary stipulations, because of his (judges)controlling personality...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Let me think.....

What does the RULE BOOK say is of "Primary Importance"???


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Let me think.....
> 
> What does the RULE BOOK say is of "Primary Importance"???


Being nice to the judges, which when I judge means feed me lunch

/Paul


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> THold till I eat my sammach! Give me a break!! have more respect for the dog thats workin its arese off for you!!! Please!!
> 
> 
> Gooser


Hey my Sandwiches are very important to me, when I'm down in my pit listening to classic rock...I take it you don't like peanut butter 

Still while delicious my PB&J is not the main point. Hunt test or not my dog better hold my birds until I choose to take them as he's trained to do, if I'm blowing away incoming birds while he's returning from a retrieve, he needs to be able to get out of my decoys, sit down, and mark the other birds, all with that one bird in his mouth until the chaos ends and I have time to take it from him. That's what is meant by deliver to hand, put the bird in my hand, regardless of the time it takes for me to get around to taking it from you. If that one bird happens to be a cripple, which escapes and swims half-way across the pond because my dog dropped it, rather than held it, while I was busy blasting an in coming flight. I then have to spend more time directing the dog to get a bird, he'd already retrieved, if we can find it at all. I'm not really pleased with a companion hunting dog if I have to run out of the blind everytime a retrieve is made because he can't hold on to a bird.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

But your demanding YOUR standard,and not reading the rules.

you would rather towel the rules to fit YOUR standard.

Dont make the standard anymore than what it is.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And to be perfectly blunt.

i don't give a flip about YOUR standard,I an trying to meet the standard set by the venue I have paid an entry fee to.

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Hint em
e doesn't your anecdotal story define what you consider a SENIOR. Level dog?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I once ran a master test where the honor dog had to hold a bird. Hows that for a standard

/Paul


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