# akc and ukc hunt tests differences?



## wingman (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm wondering the differences in hunt tests. I not sure what ukc calls their test. I'm a hunter wanting to use hunt test for training aid and fun times. Would one benefit me better than another?Are the levels of test the same? Do retriever clubs go all one way or another? I live in south central Wi. Are there more tests of one or the other around? DO the comparing titles mean as much in the dog world? Thanks in advance for all your help! 
wingman


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

Wingman,

The HRC (Hunting Retriever Club) operates under the UKC. Since you're a hunter I think you would find an HRC test very enjoyable and beneficial, not that and AKC hunt test wouldn't be it's just that in an HRC hunt test the handler actually fires blanks at each bird. In addition the handler and the gallery is asked to dress in complete camouflage to better simulate the hunting atmosphere, these are just couple of the differences. 

I run my dogs in both AKC and UKC, in my area there are far more AKC tests than there are UKC tests, hopefully that's changing. 

In my experience clubs usually do go one way or the other. Each test has their pros and cons and no way am I going to get into that. I can tell you that I personally use the entry level HRC tests to gauge where my dogs are prior to running the AKC stakes. For example, I'll run a seasoned HRC test prior to running an AKC senior test. 

You shouldn't have an issue finding several tests from both the AKC and UKC in your area.

PS,
I also register my dogs in both the UKC and the AKC. 

Hope this helps a little. 

Team A.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

The main difference between the tests is that in AKC you never fire a gun or handle a real gun. in HRC you will be required to fire a real gun (with primer shells) in the upper levels. Both use dead birds. AKC requires Live flyers in upper levels UKC prohibits live flyers in the lowest level. A steady dog and gun safety are really important in HRC/UKC. UKC is easier in the lower level. But can be easier or harder in the upper depending on your dog. 
Both of them would benefit you. There is no reason to not do both if you are a hunter. 
Both the upper level titles mean different things in different parts of the country, not becausse the tests are different but because some parts of the country just do not have a large UKC base. Lately the AKC Master National has had a higher pass rate (50%) than UKC/HRC Grand (20%). The UKC/HRC also has a seperate Upland test that AKC does not have for retrievers. So if you want to do an Upland Test you need to do UKC/HRC.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Run 'em both! It will be good for you and the dog. ;-)


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Go to this site http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/ and click on Hunt Test Information located on the right side. The rules are displayed to help you know what is expected of you and your dog. 

The concept of HRC is "Conceived by Hunters For Hunters". The idea is to have a dog that you can take to any geographical location and enjoy a days hunt with your dog.

You must shoulder the gun (loaded with poppers) and fire when the bird reaches the top of the arc. The handler may be failed for gun safety. All of the Judges, God Bless them, must be hunters and have passed a Hunters Safety Course.

HRC is very family oriented and believes in bringing our children along to be safe and happy hunters. They are our future. Find a test and introduce yourself and hang on. You will quickly become a member of the family. IT'S FUN.

The AKC is also a nice venue but some of the judges are not hunters and don't understand how to set up a test and what is involved regarding weather conditions. A test can change from the morning to the afternoon for the handlers and the wind, sun and rain can completely change the original idea. Some of the AKC tets I have seen lately are almost 'mini' field trials so you really do want your dog to be prepared. 

Which every one or both organizations are FUN and meant to prepare you and your dog for the enjoyment we find in our dogs and hunting.


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

Over/under on number of pages this thread hits before it is locked?


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

I dont think the tone of this thread is going anywhere negative. There really shouldnt be a competition between the venues. I run both and enjoy both for different reasons. If I was strictly a hunter and wanted to just make a better hunting dog I might just do HRC. Shooting at the line brings about a number of issues for some dogs. Other dogs might not have trouble transitioninig back and forth. We are all dog people and should take advantage of what we have offered. If there was NAHRA here I would probably try that.


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

And the reasons why a UKC hunt test is geared more towards hunters than an AKC test is...because...people wear camo, you hold a real gun, and the judges hunt? Really?


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

When you are hunting in real life you dont have a duck call and shot in field to get dogs attention.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

ran both like hrc better my .02...


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## deanlange (Apr 26, 2010)

http://www.grca.org/events/field/hunt_tests.html

Here is a chart that compares several of the games.

In central Iowa we have NAHRA and AKC close by. I have done both and the NAHRA guys seem to be a little friendlier and willing to help, not that there aren't turds in both. 

NAHRA doesn't have a competitive aspect to it so it is not you against me. AKC Hunt tests are competitive either but there is the field trial side that gets some people a little less likely to help the competition.

I am looking into the HRC game but there is nothing close for us in central Iowa.


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

It is impossible to REALLY simulate a duck hunt. 

I've never shot a duck while sitting on a bucket in a hay field.

I've never shot a duck with a wooden gun in a hay field.

Both venues can be fun. A lot of which venue you prefer might have to do with the people in your local clubs. My advice would be to check out both. You might end up enjoying both, and both groups of people, equally. Or, you might find yourself gravitating to one over the other. 

My ONLY criticism of HRC is that I think they take the clothing rule a little too far. I believe the rules say "hunting atire" but that's kind of subjective and I've seen that interpreted as camo. I've seen people have to change out of jeans or khaki pants before being allowed to run. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've spent plenty of mornings in a Louisiana goose pit wearing jeans and I've had many dove hunts where I've worn them as well.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

i_willie12 said:


> ran both like hrc better my .02...


X2 but NARHA is my Favorite, cuz they got upland hunting in every test

All the different organization have +'s / -'s no-ones hits it completely right yet. The different aspect about HRC is firing the gun, something I'd love to see in all venues, NARHA-AKC you can use a real gun or a stick, NAHRA lets you use your own gun if you want, but you don't get to fire it. NARHA"s got sit to flush and trailing. AKC-NARHA require live flyers HRC doesn't, although I'm starting to see more Flyers at HRC tests. HRC doesn't have call backs, so if you pay you get to play all day. HRC and NAHRA have # of entry cut offs, which are nice make the whole atmosphere calmer as they are not rushed for time. HRC-NARHA got 4 divisions, they have one inbtw JH &SH w multiple marks, and other hunting aspects but the dog doesn't have to be able to run blinds. HRC-NAHRA have one day test even at the upper level, AKC master is a 2 days test.

So the dream venue would have real gun with firing, live flyers, an upland portion, a one day test and no call backs. (Wait isn't that called Hunting, alas that doesn't go year round  ). Still When they come up with a fully inclusive venue, I might be able to give up the others, until then I'll just have to continue running them all. Well as long as I can afford it


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

This topic has to be in the TOP 5 most beaten-up discussions on RTF. 

Wingman – do a search and you’ll find all your answers and more on the topic than you’ll want to read. Most people on here don’t care what venue you run as it should be. 

Just have fun.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I've started a new venue RNRC, Red Neck Retriever Club. We all meet at the cabin drink lots of beer, either grill boil or fry something, and tell lies about our dogs.

Haven't had a dog fail one of our test yet. Try it alot less drama than those other test.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Travis Schneider said:


> And the reasons why a UKC hunt test is geared more towards hunters than an AKC test is...because...people wear camo, you hold a real gun, and the judges hunt? Really?


Every time I go hunting, I sit the dog next to me and signal to my hunting buddy that I am ready, then a duck call comes from the field, a duck is thrown from the field and shot comes from the field in the same spot. All I have to do is stand there. Yep that is geared towards hunting. 

At least in HRC you blow a duck call and shot a real gun 

Yes they are both called Hunt Test and No you can never totally simulate a REAL Duck hunt, BUT Yes HRC does do a better job at pretending to be a real duck hunt. 

Run them both and have fun.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

duk4me said:


> I've started a new venue RNRC, Red Neck Retriever Club. We all meet at the cabin drink lots of beer, either grill boil or fry something, and tell lies about our dogs.
> 
> Haven't had a dog fail one of our test yet. Try it alot less drama than those other test.


Where can I pick up my RNRC entry form?


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Bill Davis said:


> Every time I go hunting, I sit the dog next to me and signal to my hunting buddy that I am ready, then a duck call comes from the field, a duck is thrown from the field and shot comes from the field in the same spot. All I have to do is stand there. Yep that is geared towards hunting.
> 
> At least in HRC you blow a duck call and shot a real gun
> 
> ...


hahaha

Lets face it a "real" duck hunt isn't hard, don't take much of a dog to see and get a duck floating 40 yards out in a pond. That's why I prefer AKC tests. More of a challenge. 

Big ole fan for the fire.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

My real duck hunts include a lot of coffee, sitting, lies and missed shots.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

savage25xtreme said:


> hahaha
> 
> Lets face it a "real" duck hunt isn't hard, don't take much of a dog to see and get a duck floating 40 yards out in a pond. That's why I prefer AKC tests. More of a challenge.
> 
> Big ole fan for the fire.


Well Gavin,

Come run the Grand in Tulsa this fall if you want your challenge or are you scared?

Also last couple HRC tests, I have yet to find a duck floating at 40 yds in finished.

Bigger ole fan for the fire


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

duk4me said:


> I've started a new venue RNRC, Red Neck Retriever Club. We all meet at the cabin drink lots of beer, either grill boil or fry something, and tell lies about our dogs.p


I'd be the youngest handler in the HOF in that retriever organization.



Bill Davis said:


> Run them both and have fun.


I intend to.



whitefoot said:


> My ONLY criticism of HRC is that I think they take the clothing rule a little too far. I believe the rules say "hunting atire" but that's kind of subjective and I've seen that interpreted as camo. I've seen people have to change out of jeans or khaki pants before being allowed to run. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've spent plenty of mornings in a Louisiana goose pit wearing jeans and I've had many dove hunts where I've worn them as well.


Exactly. I've killed more birds without one inch of camo on, than I ever have with. Matter of fact, I've killed quite a few birds wearing a white jacket.



wendelb68 said:


> When you are hunting in real life you dont have a duck call and shot in field to get dogs attention.


I call with my mouth and shoot all my birds with a slingshot.


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## Travis Schneider (Aug 31, 2010)

bjoiner said:


> My real duck hunts include a lot of coffee, sitting, lies and missed shots.


Sounds like most hunt tests I've been to as well.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Jeff Huntington said:


> Well Gavin,
> 
> Come run the Grand in Tulsa this fall if you want your challenge or are you scared?
> 
> ...


hmmm, weird you had Derek run/train your dog for master.... skerd of the challenge?


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

savage25xtreme said:


> hmmm, weird you had Derek run/train your dog for master.... skerd of the challenge?


hmmmm, gauntlet thrown oh my. You guys are skeering me.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

savage25xtreme said:


> hahaha
> 
> Lets face it a "real" duck hunt isn't hard, don't take much of a dog to see and get a duck floating 40 yards out in a pond. That's why I prefer AKC tests. More of a challenge.
> 
> Big ole fan for the fire.


I kind of agree. As a guy who started in NAHRA then did AKC hunt test before switching to field trials, and takes every hunting season off to duck hunt, I believe actual hunting is easier than any of the upper level hunt test I have run. I have observed that my dog's upper level handling skills are quite valuable in the field and marsh, but actual marking with most ducks falling in the decoys is really quite basic compared to what we train for and run in hunt test.

I haven't run HRC, but I really enjoyed both NAHRA and AKC hunt test. I loved the upland and tracking aspect of NAHRA, but felt AKC has slightly more technical marks and blinds. It's been years but at that time NAHRA seems more casual, light hearted and fun, while AKC was a bit stuffy.

John


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

savage25xtreme said:


> hmmm, weird you had Derek run/train your dog for master.... skerd of the challenge?


Its called time...I did ALL of the early work and got his HRCH on him which was my goal.

You were the one that said you wanted a challenge so I offered the grand instead of your 40 yard water marks you refered to.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

I understand Jeff. If I was low on time Derek would be at the top of my list..... but you were sitting in a lawn chair at the HT watching when your dog titled MH (one hell of a dawg btw I am very jealous).... I would value your opinion of HRC vs AKC if you were running the dawg.... It all looks easy from the lawn chair.

Personally I am much more intested in getting into the FT game than more HTs.


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Mr. Extreme, May I suggest that you might go back to the first post of this thread and see what the fellow was asking for. And not to be blunt, but why don't you just go run Field Trials? Over the last thirty years, I've run and judged Qual. NAHRA, AKC hunt test and HRC hunt test. Before that I ran and judged gun dog club trials. I did all of this because I loved to see the dogs work, and they enjoyed it too.

Now, if you want to be quarlsome and stuffy, GO RUN FIELD TRIALS and leave us lesser folks alone. Bill


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

savage25xtreme said:


> I understand Jeff. If I was low on time Derek would be at the top of my list..... but you were sitting in a lawn chair at the HT watching when your dog titled MH (one hell of a dawg btw I am very jealous).... I would value your opinion of HRC vs AKC if you were running the dawg.... It all looks easy from the lawn chair.
> 
> Personally I am much more intested in getting into the FT game than more HTs.


I wasn't saying akc wasn't hard I got the impression you didn't think hrc was a challenge. Wasn't offering my opinion on the difference but I believe hrc is not as complex up to master level but I believe the grand title is harder to obtain then passing master national given pass rates and number of dogs However it might change with new MNH title. As soon as Colby gets next pass and GR title I am planning on trying a qual to see what's up

If my liitle girl continues to progress I would also like to try a derby or 2 but time will tell


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## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

Something to consider...over 70% of the dogs run in the HRC Grand are run by pro trainers. 49% of dogs run in the AKC Master National were run by pro trainers. 

So....if "By Hunters, for Hunters" means you have to have your pro hunt with you and your pro runs your dog when you hunt....then HRC is for you. 

sorry................try them all, they are all fun. Some learn to buy camo and shuck a gun and some train dogs.


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## duxbac (Apr 22, 2009)

wingman said:


> I'm wondering the differences in hunt tests. I not sure what ukc calls their test. I'm a hunter wanting to use hunt test for training aid and fun times. Would one benefit me better than another?Are the levels of test the same? Do retriever clubs go all one way or another? I live in south central Wi. Are there more tests of one or the other around? DO the comparing titles mean as much in the dog world? Thanks in advance for all your help!
> wingman


Hey Op; The UKC Spring Grand is in Kansasville, Wisconsin, May 26-39/2012. Your neck of the woods. Go check it out! (Especially any of the first 4 days and root for dog #245 while your at it  ) Go to this site for directiions.
http://www.hrc-ukc.com/

Bryon Samis


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

duk4me said:


> I've started a new venue RNRC, Red Neck Retriever Club. We all meet at the cabin drink lots of beer, either grill boil or fry something, and tell lies about our dogs.
> 
> Haven't had a dog fail one of our test yet. Try it alot less drama than those other test.


Love your comment. Sit back and enjoy in the RNR Club. Not a drinker myself but.. Have fun! Sounds like my old dog could compete in that club!!!  Blackie is running on his own planet. We were just in visiting the elderly at the Nursing Home I work at. They love him!!! Friday night fun.

I have only run UKC but do enjoy it as the dog runs against a standard. Would love to try Qual in FT. Need a little more training!

If I was near a lot of different test venues I would run them all. I am not! Out in the sticks near Sarnia Ontario so I generally run UKC in Michigan. Trained and joined with Central Michigan HRC. Great group!

Good Luck!!!


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

SamLab1 said:


> Something to consider...over 70% of the dogs run in the HRC Grand are run by pro trainers. 49% of dogs run in the AKC Master National were run by pro trainers.
> 
> So....if "By Hunters, for Hunters" means you have to have your pro hunt with you and your pro runs your dog when you hunt....then HRC is for you.
> 
> sorry................try them all, they are all fun. Some learn to buy camo and shuck a gun and some train dogs.


...and who created a situation where the working/family/budget minded ams need a pro to compete in these events (or choose not to compete)?


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Jeff Huntington said:


> I wasn't saying akc wasn't hard I got the impression you didn't think hrc was a challenge. Wasn't offering my opinion on the difference but I believe hrc is not as complex up to master level but I believe the grand title is harder to obtain then passing master national given pass rates and number of dogs However it might change with new MNH title. As soon as Colby gets next pass and GR title I am planning on trying a qual to see what's up
> 
> If my liitle girl continues to progress I would also like to try a derby or 2 but time will tell


Btw you need to update your signature.... Roux has a couple more letters these days 

I think all HT are better than a dawg that rotts in the backyard! 

I'm sure the grand is a ball buster. Keeping a dogs head screwed on straight for that many days almost seems impossible.

Peace


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

I'll issue a challenge to Gavin and any others that think a short mark cannot be a challenge. Come and run any event I judge and help set up, and you just might leave with your tail tucked between your legs over a 40 yrd mark. A short mark, placed correctly, can be some of the most difficult, challenging marks for a lot of dogs and handlers to deal with.

This notion that distance is the primary and only factor in a mark is bs. Venue is not relavent.


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Dman said:


> I'll issue a challenge to Gavin and any others that think a short mark cannot be a challenge. Come and run any event I judge and help set up, and you just might leave with your tail tucked between your legs over a 40 yrd mark. A short mark, placed correctly, can be some of the most difficult, challenging marks for a lot of dogs and handlers to deal with.
> 
> This notion that distance is the primary and only factor in a mark is bs. Venue is not relavent.


40 yard marks are very challenging for my dog, mostly becauses he pretty sure he can catch them before they hit the ground.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

When I first moved to Delaware, I teamed up with a guy who knew a lot about dogs, ducks, decoys and Dodges.

He traveled everywhere for trails, hunt tests and duck huntin' with an opinion about everything.

He told me that one of the retriever games was the absolute best. It had the best dogs and the best lookin' handlers. The only thing he complained about was the judges. But he seemed to enjoy that too.

For the life of me, I don't remember which retriever game he liked. Based on his description, does anyone else know? :monkey:


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

savage25xtreme said:


> hahaha
> 
> Lets face it a "real" duck hunt isn't hard, don't take much of a dog to see and get a duck floating 40 yards out in a pond. That's why I prefer AKC tests. More of a challenge.
> 
> Big ole fan for the fire.





John Robinson said:


> I kind of agree. As a guy who started in NAHRA then did AKC hunt test before switching to field trials, and takes every hunting season off to duck hunt, I believe actual hunting is easier than any of the upper level hunt test I have run. I have observed that my dog's upper level handling skills are quite valuable in the field and marsh, but actual marking with most ducks falling in the decoys is really quite basic compared to what we train for and run in hunt test.
> 
> 
> John


Shucks! You guys have it easy!


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

savage25xtreme said:


> 40 yard marks are very challenging for my dog, mostly becauses he pretty sure he can catch them before they hit the ground.


LOL. That would be called a breaking bird and woud be thown about 10-15 yards inline with the memory bird or to influence the blind.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

if im not mistaken pros usually run the grand because its a week long. who has a week off to run a trial in the other part of the country? when you could pay a pro to take yours along with many other peoples dogs.

i would like to get my dog to HRCH then if he had more id let a pro take it over. as for akc i dont have the time or money to drive around to our few akc trials. we just have more ukc down here so i can see paying a pro for akc since they are already going to be there with other dogs.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

blake_mhoona said:


> if im not mistaken pros usually run the grand because its a week long. who has a week off to run a trial in the other part of the country? when you could pay a pro to take yours along with many other peoples dogs.
> 
> i would like to get my dog to HRCH then if he had more id let a pro take it over. as for akc i dont have the time or money to drive around to our few akc trials. we just have more ukc down here so i can see paying a pro for akc since they are already going to be there with other dogs.


That is true, but there a a few of us idiots that agree to host the Grand and spend 7 days of long, hard work to pull it off.....and then do it again 7 years later. ...all for the dogs!

I think you guys only have 1 AKC club in the whole state? Central Arkansas.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

SamLab1 said:


> Something to consider...over 70% of the dogs run in the HRC Grand are run by pro trainers. 49% of dogs run in the AKC Master National were run by pro trainers.
> 
> So....if "By Hunters, for Hunters" means you have to have your pro hunt with you and your pro runs your dog when you hunt....then HRC is for you.
> 
> sorry................try them all, they are all fun. Some learn to buy camo and shuck a gun and some train dogs.


So Sam....
So I don't misinterpret akc trains better dogs because don't wear camo and don't shuck a gun?

Just want to make sure


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## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

Jeff Huntington said:


> So Sam....
> So I don't misinterpret akc trains better dogs because don't wear camo and don't shuck a gun?
> 
> Just want to make sure


Not at all what I said, just having a little fun with it....I've always thought it so hypocritical when I get quoted, For Hunters, by Hunters and a much higher percentage don't run their own dog. 

There are good dogs in all the venues, if you look at a AKC HT, HRC HT or AKC FT catalog the dog breedings are pretty much the same in all three. The training standards and expectations may be different but there are great dogs in all three. Too bad it always goes to "better/best".


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

SamLab1 said:


> Not at all what I said, just having a little fun with it....I've always thought it so hypocritical when I get quoted, For Hunters, by Hunters and a much higher percentage don't run their own dog.
> 
> There are good dogs in all the venues, if you look at a AKC HT, HRC HT or AKC FT catalog the dog breedings are pretty much the same in all three. The training standards and expectations may be different but there are great dogs in all three. Too bad it always goes to "better/best".


I agree with most of your comments, I'm willing to bet that if you compare the percentage of pros in a weekend finished test to a weekend master test, you will find more pros in the master test. At least that is what we see around here.

I sent my dog with a pro to the Grand due to time and expense not to mention that one of the best Grand trainers is a friend of mine, but Lord willing I'll run a grand myself soon.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Wingman,

It's really a personal choice. I encourage you to find some tests in your area and go watch. They're all fun. The important thing is to get out and have fun with your dog.

All this "Grand" talk makes me laugh....


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

One other difference is that in AKC hunt tests if you and dog are out in first series you are done for the day, or weekend if master, in HRC/UKC you get to run all the series if you want as long as you don't shoot someone. Also in Finished you can run two tests in two days. A lot of Masters(AKC) are 2 day tests or 3 day tests.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

deanlange said:


> http://www.grca.org/events/field/hunt_tests.html
> 
> Here is a chart that compares several of the games.
> 
> ...


Having run or been at mostly AKC tests in three states over the last 4 - 5 years I couldn't disagree with this more. I suppose things could be different in your area but the people and pros at the tests I've been at are very friendly, willing to help and quick with congratulations for a job well done or consolations when you have "one of them days".



blake_mhoona said:


> if im not mistaken pros usually run the grand because its a week long. *who has a week off to run a trial in the other part of the country? when you could pay a pro to take yours along with many other peoples dogs.*


"By hunters, for hunters" ideed 



Kelly Greenwood said:


> One other difference is that in AKC hunt tests if you and dog are out in first series you are done for the day, or weekend if master, in HRC/UKC you get to run all the series if you want as long as you don't shoot someone. Also in Finished you can run two tests in two days. A lot of Masters(AKC) are 2 day tests or 3 day tests.


And lots of times if your dog went out in the first series you're better off NOT running the next series at the test where you can't correct and going home to *train.*

I've run both and been to both AKC and HRC events. The dogs LOVE them both and there are great and not so great dogs at each and great and not so great people at each.

I prefer AKC mostly because I feel like the tests are more about the dogs ability rather than the handlers coordination or fashion sense. Also, there are far more AKC events around here than HRC. I would not hesitate to run HRC if there were as many events relatively close. Both are lots of fun. Just because they're different doesn't mean ones necessarily better or worse than the other, just different.


*.*


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> Having run or been at mostly AKC tests in three states over the last 4 - 5 years I couldn't disagree with this more. I suppose things could be different in your area but the people and pros at the tests I've been at are very friendly, willing to help and quick with congratulations for a job well done or consolations when you have "one of them days".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you really think that whether you pass or fail an HRC test is based on the handler's coordination or what you're wearing?

passing an HRC test is every bit as much about the dog's work as AKC tests.

roll your eyes all you want, but in region 2, we have NO professionals handling dogs, ALL the judges are hunters and probably more than 90% of the handlers are hunters. and i ain't talking about picking up birds at a tower shoot..... -Paul


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

paul young said:


> you really think that whether you pass or fail an HRC test is based on the handler's coordination or what you're wearing?
> 
> passing an HRC test is every bit as much about the dog's work as AKC tests.
> 
> roll your eyes all you want, but in region 2, we have NO professionals handling dogs, ALL the judges are hunters and probably more than 90% of the handlers are hunters. and i ain't talking about picking up birds at a tower shoot..... -Paul


I don't believe I said the pass/fail is based on the handlers coordination or what they're wearing. What I said is that I care more about good dog work. I also said there is good dog work at both. I just don't care about the dress code or what the handler is doing/wearing as much as what the dog is doing. And, again, if there were more HRC tests in the area, I'd run them. 

All I did was give my opinion on both but I also said they're both good for the dogs and fun to run.

.

.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Rick_C said:


> And, again, if there were more HRC tests in the area, I'd run them.
> 
> All I did was give my opinion on both but I also said they're both good for the dogs and fun to run..
> 
> .


I did a quick look for the summer and for AKC there are 5 tests in Washington with 5 master, 7 senior, 7 Junior. For UKC/HRC there are 8 Finished, 8 Seasoned, 8 Started. ;-)

A few other important differences in the two are that in UKC/HRC you can talk to your dog just like you do while hunting, in AKC you are not allowed to except on the honor. Also creeping in UKC/HRC is a bit more of a problem as you can get dropped for shooting with your dog in the blast cone. Having the gun and having to load and shoot the gun means you have a little less attention to pay to your dog in a test. This gives the judges a little better opportunity to observe the dog as it would be if you were hunting. It makes a small difference for some handlers and dogs but can make a huge difference for others. For me it gives me something to do so I am less nervous, for others the opposite applies.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Dman said:


> That is true, but there a a few of us idiots that agree to host the Grand and spend 7 days of long, hard work to pull it off.....and then do it again 7 years later. ...all for the dogs!
> 
> I think you guys only have 1 AKC club in the whole state? Central Arkansas.


D is your club hosting the fall grand? Can you give some insight on the hotels there, I would like to get mine booked as soon as possible before the prices go up. 

Thanks!


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

By the way to the original poster you can go to www.entryexpress.net and do a search for upcoming AKC hunt tests. and for UKC/HRC events go to http://www.ukcdogs.com/Upcoming.nsf/EventView?Open&Group=HuntingRetriever&Type=M
and search.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> I did a quick look for the summer and for AKC there are 5 tests in Washington with 5 master, 7 senior, 7 Junior. For UKC/HRC there are 8 Finished, 8 Seasoned, 8 Started. ;-)
> 
> A few other important differences in the two are that in UKC/HRC you can talk to your dog just like you do while hunting, in AKC you are not allowed to except on the honor. Also creeping in UKC/HRC is a bit more of a problem as you can get dropped for shooting with your dog in the blast cone. Having the gun and having to load and shoot the gun means you have a little less attention to pay to your dog in a test. This gives the judges a little better opportunity to observe the dog as it would be if you were hunting. It makes a small difference for some handlers and dogs but can make a huge difference for others. For me it gives me something to do so I am less nervous, for others the opposite applies.


Spin it !! 

All the WA tests but one are 6 hours away. With AKC I can run 3 within 2 hours and 2 more 3 hours away. I do admit the nice thing about HRC is being able to get 2 tests run each weekend. Thus one of the other differences; HRC is 2 series, AKC is 3.

AGAIN, they're both fun for the dogs and handlers...run which ever one you like, run 'em both, they're all good in their own way. 

.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

The "For hunters by Hunters" don't shoot birds.

Prolly just run 'em down in the parking lot regards

Bubba


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Margo Ellis said:


> D is your club hosting the fall grand? Can you give some insight on the hotels there, I would like to get mine booked as soon as possible before the prices go up.
> 
> Thanks!



Margo

I'm the club treasurer and it's 3 rivers hosting the fall grand. Derick is 4 states hosting in sp13 

Anyway we are meeting with grand folks next week to confirm hunt test sites so I will send you a PM next week and post on RTF

If you have any question feel free to call me at 479-462-3266

Jeff


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Margo Ellis said:


> D is your club hosting the fall grand? Can you give some insight on the hotels there, I would like to get mine booked as soon as possible before the prices go up.
> 
> Thanks!


Margo,

Fall 2013 will be hosted by Three Rivers up in Tulsa, Ok. We (Four States) are hosting the Spring of 2013. 

The closest, nicest hotel is the Holiday Inn Express in New Boston, Tx. We will, however, negotiate rates at several hotels, Several in Texarkana, so I wouldn't book until we get those rates.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Oops. Just saw your post Jeff.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Bubba said:


> The "For hunters by Hunters" don't shoot birds.
> 
> Prolly just run 'em down in the parking lot regards
> 
> Bubba


I've been envolved in several HRC tests that had shot flyers. It is not required, but left up to the club to decide. What's your point?

My dog pics up anywhere between 400-600 each hunting season. He's been doing this for 8 years....do the math. Is that not enough shot flyers? How many shot flyers do strickly AKC hunt test dogs, that dont hunt, typically pick up in a year? 

If you don't hunt alot, a shot flyer is a much larger factor in a test......Most HRC dogs I know of have picked up hundreds more shot flyers than thrown, dead ducks. A shot flyer for them is just another day hunting.

I also noticed Dusky HRC had shot flyers in their fun day.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Bubba said:


> The "For hunters by Hunters" don't shoot birds.
> 
> Prolly just run 'em down in the parking lot regards
> 
> Bubba


Everyy HRC test in California has had shot flyers in finished. ;-) and this fall we are going to have them in seasoned also if we can get you to come down and shoot for us..


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

> kind of agree. As a guy who started in NAHRA then did AKC hunt test before switching to field trials, and takes every hunting season off to duck hunt, I believe actual hunting is easier than any of the upper level hunt test I have run. I have observed that my dog's upper level handling skills are quite valuable in the field and marsh, but actual marking with most ducks falling in the decoys is really quite basic compared to what we train for and run in hunt test.



I keep telling guys, if you want something that continually tests the uppper level concepts, complexities and distances..DIVERS & SEA DUCKS on the BIG WATER...Tide swings, 10+knts current, wind, 2-3' rollers and a yawing boat......Now you don't "need" a dog and can pick up many birds with your boat...But what fun is that! You need a special dog with lots of bottom and some good SH-MH training to consistently succeed out there!


as for the OP's question.......I run AKC, and only ran HRC once(had a blast) I think these mudd slinging post go nowhere and accomplish nothing....Run em both have a great time, meet new folks, go new places try new things and above all enjoy it ALL!!!!!!!


I will say, I WISH there were more opportunites for HRC tests out here in the north east


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

So many flavors so little time  Find what is closest to you and give it a try. I am heavily involved in HRC but do spend time at AKC events. No matter what I am running I try to have fun and make new friends, some events are not as much fun as others but my dogs don't know or care about the difference, sometimes we have fliers, sometimes we don't, they don't seem to give a hoot one way or the other. 
I "CHOOSE" to wear camo while testing my dogs weather it is AKC or HRC the rules state clothes harmonious with the enviroment. No pink visors please we are not shoot flamingos.  Have fun, look for the club with the coolest ribbons.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The only thing I'll whine about is the next fall grand is in Oct. and I really want to go  but Don't you guys understand that I have a deer trip, a pig trip, a pheasant guide and OH yeah Duck-Goose opener in Oct. Probably should work a bit to pay for everything as well.. AHHHH!!!!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

The biggest difference is that it is perfectly okay to bash AKC tests on RTF but if you even think about saying anything negative about HRC, it will result in a dogpile.

Neither are much like hunting but they do test dogs on skills that they can use while hunting.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> The only thing I'll whine about is the next fall grand is in Oct. and I really want to go  but Don't you guys understand that I have a deer trip, a pig trip, a pheasant guide and OH yeah Duck-Goose opener in Oct. Probably should work a bit to pay for everything as well.. AHHHH!!!!


You do know if you whine about the Grand your club has to host it next year!!!!;-)


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Kelly Greenwood said:


> A few other important differences in the two are that in UKC/HRC you can talk to your dog just like you do while hunting, in AKC you are not allowed to except on the honor. Also creeping in UKC/HRC is a bit more of a problem as you can get dropped for shooting with your dog in the blast cone. Having the gun and having to load and shoot the gun means you have a little less attention to pay to your dog in a test. This gives the judges a little better opportunity to observe the dog as it would be if you were hunting. It makes a small difference for some handlers and dogs but can make a huge difference for others.


I don't know how you hunt, but I don't talk to my dog while doing so. I have my hands full calling birds, shooting, BSing and drinking coffee. He needs to sit where I tell him to sit and mark the birds until I call his name.

How big of a problem is creeping when you can talk to your dog on the line???? If its a problem, then....well you have a big problem.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

DoubleHaul said:


> The biggest difference is that it is perfectly okay to bash AKC tests on RTF but if you even think about saying anything negative about HRC, it will result in a dogpile.
> 
> Neither are much like hunting but they do test dogs on skills that they can use while hunting.


Obviously, there is passion on both sides.


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## Sleepyg (Nov 13, 2007)

Dman said:


> That is true, but there a a few of us idiots that agree to host the Grand and spend 7 days of long, hard work to pull it off.....and then do it again 7 years later. ...all for the dogs!
> 
> I think you guys only have 1 AKC club in the whole state? Central Arkansas.


I heard that big D! But 7 days isn't gonna cover the hard work. :razz:

Central AR doesn't have hunt tests anymore just FT


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## Sleepyg (Nov 13, 2007)

Jeff Huntington said:


> Well Gavin,
> 
> Come run the Grand in Tulsa this fall if you want your challenge or are you scared?
> 
> ...


Jeff,
looks like 4 states may be bringing as many as 7 to the fall grand!


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

savage25xtreme said:


> I don't know how you hunt, but I don't talk to my dog while doing so. .


I talk to mine all the time. She is the next most intellegent being there, since my partners are MSU fans.....;-)


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

GulfCoast said:


> I talk to mine all the time. She is the next most intellegent being there, since my partners are MSU fans.....;-)


You need to move to a better TrailerHood Mark.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

GulfCoast said:


> I talk to mine all the time. She is the next most intellegent being there, since my partners are MSU fans.....;-)


Michigan State...thought you lived down South Mark?????


Sleepy...as long as you guys are here to the end..big time coming.

Jeff


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jeff Huntington said:


> Michigan State...thought you lived down South Mark?????
> 
> 
> Sleepy...as long as you guys are here to the end..big time coming.
> ...


I'm pretty sure he was talking about the Montana State University Bobcats.


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## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I thought he was talking about Minnesota State University or Maine state university or Maryland state university ;-)


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

More than likely Mark was talking about the BEST university in Mississippi MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> More than likely Mark was talking about the BEST university in Mississippi MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY


Couldn't have because you used the word BEST with the school. Pretty sure he meant Mayberry State Univ. Or from the old days Memphis State University


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

Along with the differences that have already been mentioned, ie., talking to the dog, gun handling, shots from the field vs no shots, there are some differences in judging, especially at the upper levels. In AKC if a dog goes to an area, establishes a hunt and leaves to pick up another bird, that is a "switch" and the dog fails; in HRC, there is no such rule.....a "switch is when a dog picks up a bird, drops it, and picks up another bird (you rarely see answithc unless it's with the diversion). If the dog leaves an area for another area, and still makes all the retrieves without handling, all is ok. In AKC, if the dog returns to the area of an old fall, that's not good. In HRC, if this happens, the handler can handle the dog off of the old fall. In AKC, the judges can designate the line to the blind; HRC wants to see the dog "challenge" the blind. These have been my observations.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

SamLab1 said:


> Something to consider...over 70% of the dogs run in the HRC Grand are run by pro trainers. 49% of dogs run in the AKC Master National were run by pro trainers.
> 
> So....if "By Hunters, for Hunters" means you have to have your pro hunt with you and your pro runs your dog when you hunt....then HRC is for you.
> 
> sorry................try them all, they are all fun. Some learn to buy camo and shuck a gun and some train dogs.


The remainder (51%) run in AKC of that % how many of those dogs are pro trained and had run FT? 
I don't run HRC b/c I need a pro beside me nor would I hunt my dog with a pro nor do I consider HRC for pros only. I would ? AKC ? % numbers you gave and also I think it would depend on where the AKC or UKC venue was run? Now having said this I am not putting pros down b/c there are some great pros out there IMO that are not only willing to run your dog but assist you to *RUN* your dog!! IMHO that is what it is all about!!


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

David McCracken said:


> Along with the differences that have already been mentioned, ie., talking to the dog, gun handling, shots from the field vs no shots, there are some differences in judging, especially at the upper levels. In AKC if a dog goes to an area, establishes a hunt and leaves to pick up another bird, that is a "switch" and the dog fails; in HRC, there is no such rule.....a "switch is when a dog picks up a bird, drops it, and picks up another bird (you rarely see answithc unless it's with the diversion). If the dog leaves an area for another area, and still makes all the retrieves without handling, all is ok. In AKC, if the dog returns to the area of an old fall, that's not good. In HRC, if this happens, the handler can handle the dog off of the old fall. In AKC, the judges can designate the line to the blind; HRC wants to see the dog "challenge" the blind. These have been my observations.


David, you're referring to a switch on a diversion. Yes, that's true about picking up another bird (on a diversion), but abandoning an established hunt on a mark to go to another bird is also a switch in HRC. Fail....

As far as blinds, every venue wants you to attack the blind...it's not just a HRC thing.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

KNorman said:


> David, you're referring to a switch on a diversion. Yes, that's true about picking up another bird (on a diversion), but abandoning an established hunt on a mark to go to another bird is also a switch in HRC. Fail....
> 
> As far as blinds, every venue wants you to attack the blind...it's not just a HRC thing.


KNorman, I'm glad you clarified that. I thought David was saying that, in an HRC Finished test, a dog could go hunt an area of a fall, not find the bird, then go to the area of the fall for a different bird and retrieve that bird, then be resent for the one not picked up and as long as there was no handle the dog would pass. 

Makes me want to review the HRC rule book anyway.

edit: So I did...
While David is correct in that hunting an AOF and leaving is not defined as a switch in HRC, I find the following in the rules:
3. HUNTING DESIRE
Included in this category would be courage, desire,
determination, and perseverance. A test *may* be failed
if a retriever:
1. *Stops and gives up hunting*;

and...

VIII. The Finished Hunting Retriever can be *cast from
the retrieving line only once.* If the Finished Hunting
Retriever is unproductive after the single attempt, the
Judge will instruct the Handler to pick up the hunting
retriever and that the test is failed.

I think what AKC defines as a switch (unproductively hunting one AOF, then leaving to retrieve a different bird) is a failure in HRC regardless of what its called. I hope it would be anyway.


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## Marsh Mule (Oct 16, 2009)

AKC is prejudice.....they only give out orange ribbons.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

KNorman said:


> David, you're referring to a switch on a diversion. Yes, that's true about picking up another bird (on a diversion), but abandoning an established hunt on a mark to go to another bird is also a switch in HRC. Fail....
> 
> As far as blinds, every venue wants you to attack the blind...it's not just a HRC thing.


Don't think you are correct on this. The only switch in HRC is on the diversion. Now if the dog does switch from one mark to another it is not judged as a switch but could be judged on Lack of Marking and Memory and may or may not be grounds for a failure at this point.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Marsh Mule said:


> AKC is prejudice.....they only give out orange ribbons.


One undeniable fact is that HRC HT Ribbons are far superior in appearance to AKC HT ribbons. 

Its also cool that HRC clubs have different color ribbons. Makes me want to Title at certain clubs over others because they have better looking ribbons. Its kind of like having a Hard Rock Cafe T-Shirt from different cities used to be cool.

Of course no HT ribbon can come close to even a green ribbon in a Retriever FT.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Bill Davis said:


> Don't think you are correct on this. The only switch in HRC is on the diversion. Now if the dog does switch from one mark to another it is not judged as a switch but could be judged on Lack of Marking and Memory and may or may not be grounds for a failure at this point.


Bill, barring any very unusual circunstances, would ever pass a dog in a finished test that hunted one AOF, was unproductive in finding the bird, left that area of the fall to retrieve a different bird?


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

also a difference i was made aware of last weekend working with an AKC senior level judge. don't know if it was mentioned in this thread but what about the "walk up" bird in HRC can actually be the double marks in AKC senior? thats a big difference as well.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

KNorman said:


> David, you're referring to a switch on a diversion. Yes, that's true about picking up another bird (on a diversion), but abandoning an established hunt on a mark to go to another bird is also a switch in HRC. Fail....


The HRC Rule Book defines a switch (on page 45). "A switch is defined as the dog dropping one bird and picking up another." There is no other definition of a switch in HRC. Nowhere in the Rulebook does it say anything about a dog failing because it established a hunt in one area, left the area and picked up a bird from another area. The judge could mark the dog down on hunting desire or marking/memory, but the dog cannot be failed for a "switch".


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

David McCracken said:


> The HRC Rule Book defines a switch (on page 45). "A switch is defined as the dog dropping one bird and picking up another." There is no other definition of a switch in HRC. Nowhere in the Rulebook does it say anything about a dog failing because it established a hunt in one area, left the area and picked up a bird from another area. The judge could mark the dog down on hunting desire or marking/memory, but the dog cannot be failed for a "switch".


Would you pass a dog in a finished test that hunted the area of the fall of one bird, was unproductive in the hunt, and then left to retrieve another bird (the definition of a switch in AKC speak)?

Would these sections of the HRC rules influence your decision?

3. HUNTING DESIRE
Included in this category would be courage, desire,
determination, and perseverance. A test may be failed
if a retriever:
1. Stops and gives up hunting;

and...

VIII. The Finished Hunting Retriever can be cast from
the retrieving line only once. If the Finished Hunting
Retriever is unproductive after the single attempt, the
Judge will instruct the Handler to pick up the hunting
retriever and that the test is failed.

I'd say the part about the finished retriever being cast from the retrieving line only once would require you to fail the dog.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Would you pass a dog in a finished test that hunted the area of the fall of one bird, was unproductive in the hunt, and then left to retrieve another bird (the definition of a switch in AKC speak)?
> 
> Would these sections of the HRC rules influence your decision?
> 
> ...


That is a judgement call, and cannot be a hard and fast rule as in AKC, if the dog leaves an area and picks up another bird. I judged a dog recently that left for the go bird (middle bird) and established a short hunt slightly up wind of the bird (the dog was in the area), suddenly, there was a gust of wind blowing from the direction of another mark (right mark). The dog threw up his nose, and proceeded to pick up the right mark. The handler sent the dog for the middle bird and the dog was successful in picking it up as well as the third (left) bird. Yes, we passed that dog. Since these are hunting dogs we cannot fail a dog for honoring it's nose.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

captainjack said:


> I'd say the part about the finished retriever being cast from the retrieving line only once would require you to fail the dog.


In the example I gave above, the handler only casted the dog once for each mark. The judges don't normally designate the order in which the birds must be picked up. The handler cast to the go bird, the dog went there but left for one of the memory birds and returned with it. The handler then cast for the middle bird, which the dog picked up, and then to the left bird. He only casted once to each bird. (Every dog does not always go in the direction he is casted ) A recast is when the dog returns from an unproductive hunt and is sent again (as in a Started test)


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Bill, barring any very unusual circunstances, would ever pass a dog in a finished test that hunted one AOF, was unproductive in finding the bird, left that area of the fall to retrieve a different bird?


Can't answer that question without seeing the total work on that particular test and the overall work for the day.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

David McCracken said:


> In the example I gave above, the handler only casted the dog once for each mark. The judges don't normally designate the order in which the birds must be picked up. The handler cast to the go bird, the dog went there but left for one of the memory birds and returned with it. The handler then cast for the middle bird, which the dog picked up, and then to the left bird. He only casted once to each bird. (Every dog does not always go in the direction he is casted ) A recast is when the dog returns from an unproductive hunt and is sent again (as in a Started test)


^^^Agree^^^


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Gatorb said:


> also a difference i was made aware of last weekend working with an AKC senior level judge. don't know if it was mentioned in this thread but what about the "walk up" bird in HRC can actually be the double marks in AKC senior? thats a big difference as well.


The walkup in HRC in Seasoned can not be part of the marking portion of the test


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Bill Davis said:


> Don't think you are correct on this. The only switch in HRC is on the diversion. Now if the dog does switch from one mark to another it is not judged as a switch but could be judged on Lack of Marking and Memory and may or may not be grounds for a failure at this point.


Are you saying the dog can drop the bird he has and go and pick up the diversion??? That is what I would call a switch or if he starts out heading towards one mark can't find it and goes to another. He leaves the AOF after hunting would not be good IMO. Bad news on both accounts you mention. The dog should stay true to his first line!!!!Stay in the AOF and hunt it up!Looks better rather than a cop out!!!on a mark.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Bill Davis said:


> The walkup in HRC in Seasoned can not be part of the marking portion of the test


Yea thats what i said i see where it looks like i said the hrc could be the marks but i just left out a couple important commas and spaces. 
Akc yes
Hrc no

Thats a big difference in my book that could definitely mess up a dog that was not at full attention coming from the holdong blind.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Are you saying the dog can drop the bird he has and go and pick up the diversion??? That is what I would call a switch or if he starts out heading towards one mark can't find it and goes to another. He leaves the AOF after hunting would not be good IMO. Bad news on both accounts you mention. The dog should stay true to his first line!!!!Stay in the AOF and hunt it up!Looks better rather than a cop out!!!on a mark.


No, that is not what I am saying about the diversion re-read what I said. A dog in Finished can not drop ANY bird to go and get another bird

Well I guess that is the difference between AKC and HRC in what each classify as a switch. AKC has one on the Marks and HRC does not. You have to follow the rules for each when you Judge, you can't make them up as you go.......... Well some Judges do ;-)


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

I always love these kind of threads. I love HRC but run AKC as well. They are both alot of fun and the dogs do not know the difference.

The biggest differences to me are:

1. Shot flyers are required in AKC and are not in HRC
2. Handlers in HRC (except Started) are required to handle, load and fire a shotgun. They do not in AKC
3. Dogs in both venues need to proceed directly to the area of the fall, establish a hunt, retrieve the bird(s) and deliver them back to the handler.
4. HRC Finished is 2 series (land and water) and AKC Master is 3 series (land, water and land/water combo).
5. Dogs are expected to challenge the blind(s) in both venues but AKC judges may designate a specific line to the blind.
6. You may quietly talk to your dog in all levels of HRC and cannot talk to your dog in AKC once you have signal for the birds.
7. The HRC Grand has higher standards and tests distances then Finished and consist of 5 series (2 land series, 2 water series and 1 upland series) and the Master Nationals are to be Master series judged to the same standard as Master tests and runs a specific number of days rather than series.
8. Shots are fired in the field prior to or as the bird is being thrown in AKC and attention getting devices (usually duck call) are required only in Started in HRC.
9. Amatuers and Pros run both AKC and HRC events from Junior through Master Nationals in AKC and Started through Grand in HRC

The most important thing is to run what you can and have fun. You will have a better dog in the end regardless of what venue you run.

JMHO

Janet


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

great post Janet!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Bill Davis said:


> Can't answer that question without seeing the total work on that particular test and the overall work for the day.


Yes you can. Here it is again.

Bill, barring any very unusual circumstances, would ever pass a dog in a finished test that hunted one AOF, was unproductive in finding the bird, left that area of the fall to retrieve a different bird?

Its a straight forward question, would you ever pass a dog that did what the AKC calls a "switch" (which I have described above)? You don't need to see the total work on the test or the overall work for the day. Assume it was perfect if you must. Also, the test was not canceled, the handler did not go home and decide not run the second series, the dog didn't come in season, etc... This is the no spin zone.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

captainjack said:


> Yes you can. Here it is again.
> 
> Bill, barring any very unusual circumstances, would ever pass a dog in a finished test that hunted one AOF, was unproductive in finding the bird, left that area of the fall to retrieve a different bird?
> 
> Its a straight forward question, would you ever pass a dog that did what the AKC calls a "switch" (which I have described above)? You don't need to see the total work on the test or the overall work for the day. Assume it was perfect if you must. Also, the test was not canceled, the handler did not go home and decide not run the second series, the dog didn't come in season, etc... This is the no spin zone.


Is there a reason dog did not pick it up....fire ants on bird, dropped in hole, other things that go bump in the night....


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Never really understood the HRC rule on a switch only that one is allowable in seasoned, I always thought it had to do with picking up a diversion.
HRC diversions are very in your face, a lot of dogs may spit a bird on the way back and pick up the diversion, often times this occurs in heavy cover where you cannot tell the switch has been made, which is why they mark all the birds. Seen it happen ALOT in Finished the bird lands right in their face, usually very close to the line. It is grounds for failure in Finished

Another switch that will fail you, is picking up a HOT blind, and HRC likes them HOT blinds


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

> You have to follow the rules for each when you Judge, you can't make them up as you go.......... Well some Judges do :wink:


I don't think it's so much a difference in the rules as the terminology used.

Lack of marking and memory or a switch. Whatever the term used, you're likely headed home.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Never really understood the HRC rule on a switch only that one is allowable in seasoned, I always thought it had to do with picking up a diversion.
> HRC diversions are very in your face, a lot of dogs may spit a bird on the way back and pick up the diversion, often times this occurs in heavy cover where you cannot tell the switch has been made, which is why they mark all the birds. Seen it happen ALOT in Finished the bird lands right in their face, usually very close to the line. It is grounds for failure in Finished
> 
> Another switch that will fail you, is picking up a HOT blind, and HRC likes them HOT blinds


If you are seeing that alot in a Finished Test, then the Judges are going agaisnt what is being taught in the Judges Seminars. We are taught in the seminars to throw the diversion in the area of the return from a retrieve and make it in such a way that a dog has to make an effort to switch. Again there are some judges that go on a power trip when they are in the chair and do things like that and as long as we let these judges get away with it they will continue to do it. That is the main reason I like to throw the diversion on the way back from the blind, makes it just about the same for every dog. 
Saw a blind setup a few weeks ago that was a very nice blind except for one thing, just a few feet off line to the blind on the right side, about 20 yards from the line there was a wall of willows that made it very difficult for you to see your dog or the dog to see you. The judges were going to judge it accordingly, per one of the judges..........


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Yes you can. Here it is again.
> 
> Bill, barring any very unusual circumstances, would ever pass a dog in a finished test that hunted one AOF, was unproductive in finding the bird, left that area of the fall to retrieve a different bird?
> 
> Its a straight forward question, would you ever pass a dog that did what the AKC calls a "switch" (which I have described above)? You don't need to see the total work on the test or the overall work for the day. Assume it was perfect if you must. Also, the test was not canceled, the handler did not go home and decide not run the second series, the dog didn't come in season, etc... This is the no spin zone.


Glen if you are talking in AKC then "YES" it is spelled out in the rules what a switch is. If you are referring to HRC then I stand by what I said earlier. If a dog leaves AOF in a Finished test I can pretty much bet that they are going to do something else to go along with that. Which I will bet a "Handle" when they send them back on the same bird that they did not come up with before leaving that AOF on that one.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

KNorman said:


> I don't think it's so much a difference in the rules as the terminology used.
> 
> Lack of marking and memory or a switch. Whatever the term used, you're likely headed home.


Yep. Pretty much.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Judges in the early Morning Finished Hrc handlers meeting before the test starts.

" Pick them up in any order"

Gooser


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Bill Davis said:


> No, that is not what I am saying about the diversion re-read what I said. A dog in Finished can not drop ANY bird to go and get another bird
> 
> Well I guess that is the difference between AKC and HRC in what each classify as a switch. AKC has one on the Marks and HRC does not. You have to follow the rules for each when you Judge, you can't make them up as you go.......... Well some Judges do ;-)


Thanks for the reply.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> 5. Dogs are expected to challenge the blind(s) in both venues but AKC judges may designate a specific line to the blind.


Janet, what does the above mean? I thought challenging the blind meant not to deviate to much from the direct line to the blind. How can you challenge the blind but not be held accountable for the line? Just seems contradictory to me.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Jeff Huntington said:


> Is there a reason dog did not pick it up....fire ants on bird, dropped in hole, other things that go bump in the night....


This would constitute the unusual circumstances that wre barred from my previous post. I believe both the HRC an AKC rules allow the judges latitude in circumstances that make a test relatively unfair.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Janet, what does the above mean? I thought challenging the blind meant not to deviate to much from the direct line to the blind. How can you challenge the blind but not be held accountable for the line? Just seems contradictory to me.


Howard, obviously I'm not Janet, but In HRC as judges, we can't say you must run between those two trees, bushes, or whatever. All we can say is we expect you to challenge the blind and then we judge their attempt or not to stay on line.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

Howard N said:


> Janet, what does the above mean? I thought challenging the blind meant not to deviate to much from the direct line to the blind. How can you challenge the blind but not be held accountable for the line? Just seems contradictory to me.


The AKC judges I have run under stated that the "line to the blind is between the tree and the stump", meaning that going outside of that line was unacceptable. In HRC, if the dog goes to the outside of the stump and recovers well, he may still pass.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

In HRC can you enter a dog in two different levels, for example started and seasoned, at the same test? I know there was at least one dog entered in both Junior and Senior this past weekend at the AKC test we ran.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

David McCracken said:


> The AKC judges I have run under stated that the "line to the blind is between the tree and the stump", meaning that going outside of that line was unacceptable. In HRC, if the dog goes to the outside of the stump and recovers well, he may still pass.


Was that one set of judges that told you this?

Although judges can tell you whatever they wish, but not going between the tree and stump might not mean automatic failure. Missing the stump and recovering well might get you back in AKC also.......unless the tree and stump are 20 yds apart on a 60 yd blind.

Whether it be AKC or HRC, if you look at the blind from the line and their is an obvious keyhole, why not try to challenge it and let the judges judge.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Dman said:


> Howard, obviously I'm not Janet, but In HRC as judges, we can't say you must run between those two trees, bushes, or whatever. All we can say is we expect you to challenge the blind and then we judge their attempt or not to stay on line.


 
I dont think the rules say "challenge the blind"..

I think they (seminar) dictates you must "make Progress"

There is no designated route or line in HRC blinds.

Gooser


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

MooseGooser v2.0 said:


> I dont think the rules say "challenge the blind"..
> 
> I think they (seminar) dictates you must "make Progress"
> 
> ...


You are correct G v2.0, but I like to set my blinds up to force you to challenge them. Not challenging a blind is the same thing as cheating, is it not? You can be failed in HRC for that.

It's always up to the handler as to how they want to run any blind, but If you don't challenge it, you will more than likely loose your dog and be failed for lack of control. I'm just trying to help the handlers and dogs out when I ,that.

I can also say Gooser doesn't look good at the beach. It's also not in the rulebook


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Janet, what does the above mean? I thought challenging the blind meant not to deviate to much from the direct line to the blind. How can you challenge the blind but not be held accountable for the line? Just seems contradictory to me.


Howard,

It is not that uncommon down here in Master tests for the judges to state that a dog must cross a point. In the past, I have see that point be less than 10 feet from "pop a chauk line" to the blind at say 80 yards. A dog that is less than 10 feet off line at that distance is still challenging the blind, IMHO.

The HRC rulebook states:

Page 49; IX

Lining the blind is not required. The Finished Hunting Retriever should demonstrate the ability to take an initial line towards the blind and a willingness and ability to respond to the commands from the Handler. The Finished Hunting Retriever must stay under control and pick up the bird quickly and efficiently. The judge will not require the retriever to run a predefined route or channel.



You still have to challenge the blind in HRC.

Janet


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Judges, whether HRC or AKC, don't need to say anything except where the blind is planted and where the dog runs from. Handlers know the line to every blind is straight from the running line to the bird. Whether or not a judge tells you that you have to hit a key hole, they can put you out if you don't hit it if they want to. And likely will put you out if you don't even try.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

hotel4dogs said:


> In HRC can you enter a dog in two different levels, for example started and seasoned, at the same test? I know there was at least one dog entered in both Junior and Senior this past weekend at the AKC test we ran.


Barb,

In HRC you cannot enter a dog in more than one category per hunt. But each day is a separate hunt so you could enter your dog in say Started on Saturday and Seasoned on Sunday.

Janet


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Never really understood the HRC rule on a switch only that one is allowable in seasoned, I always thought it had to do with picking up a diversion.
> HRC diversions are very in your face, a lot of dogs may spit a bird on the way back and pick up the diversion, often times this occurs in heavy cover where you cannot tell the switch has been made, which is why they mark all the birds. Seen it happen ALOT in Finished the bird lands right in their face, usually very close to the line. It is grounds for failure in Finished
> 
> Another switch that will fail you, is picking up a HOT blind, and HRC likes them HOT blinds


HRC rulebook page 45 VI (Seasoned)

The diversionary bird must be thrown as the dog returns from the retrieve. A switch is defined as the dog dropping one bird and picking up the other bird. The purpose of this test is to require the Seasoned dog to demonstrate a reasonable degree of control on the return from a retrieve. The diversionary bird should be thrown where the dog can see it, but not in its return path.

HRC Seminar book page 45 Finished Diversion

Part of the test must include a diversion as the dog returns to the retrieving line from a blind, walk-up or return from a marked retrieve

The purpose of this test is the same as the Seasoned diversion. The Finished retriever must demonstrate more control when a diversion is thrown.

If the hunting retriever switches to the diversionary bird on the return, it shall fail the test.

Finished Diversion considerations:

many of the same considerations from Seasoned apply at Finished; 1) the dog should see the bird; 2) handlers must be given time to load and properly shoot at it; and 3) it is acceptable to handle to the diversion.

A dog should have to go out of its way to switch. It's not necessary to throw close to a dog and judges may delcare a no-bird if they determine a trown was unfair.



As for a dog picking up Hot blinds, by definition that would not be a switch. And down here, it is not at all uncommon for AKC to have hot blinds either. That is not exclusive to HRC.

Janet


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

In the MH tests I have run, I have never had a judge tell handlers they must hit a keyhole or cross a point. Quite often it is obvious, but not a "do it or you're out" situation. Neither have they done it at the Master National.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> In the MH tests I have run, I have never had a judge tell handlers they must hit a keyhole or cross a point. Quite often it is obvious, but not a "do it or you're out" situation. Neither have they done it at the Master National.


I've only run four Master tests, but in each one the judges have "designated" the line to the blind. Perhaps it'll get easier as I run a few more.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Thomas,

It does not happen here all the time but is does happen here. And your dog must proform that which is specifically designated by the judges. Not saying it is a bad thing just Howard asked me something specific and I answered with an example.

Janet


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

Janet Kimbrough said:


> Barb,
> 
> In HRC you cannot enter a dog in more than one category per hunt. But each day is a separate hunt so you could enter your dog in say Started on Saturday and Seasoned on Sunday.
> 
> Janet


However, you can run Started, Seasoned, or Finished, AND Upland on the same day. Upland is a seperate test from the Retrieving tests.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

One thing I would like to say, is everyone can have that one organization that they love or a passionate about but it doesn't mean that they have to slam the other organizations. I do not believe that any one is better than the others but rather there are differences in each. 

I do not speak of NAHRA as I have never had any events that are close enough to run. And I do not believe in offering an opinion of something I know nothing about.

And the biggest thing to remember is your dogs do not know or care about the differences or what organization you choose to run. They are all about picking up birds.........

Janet


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> In the MH tests I have run, I have never had a judge tell handlers they must hit a keyhole or cross a point. Quite often it is obvious, but not a "do it or you're out" situation. Neither have they done it at the Master National.


Maybe they are trying to do you a favor? How do you know what they are looking for?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I don’t have a dog in this fight and I didn’t read all of the posts, but what is the reason for a reason?….A Ribbon….Money…or just watching a good dog run and knowing?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

people ignored my post about HRC judges telling handlers to "pick up in any order"

So,,

Test this day is an indented triple.. thrown center,, Right,,, then left as go bird.
center bird is the medium range bird, with the far right outside bird thrown flat towrd to center bird but deeper The center and right hand birds relationship is almost a hipocket. really tight.

There is a cross wind blowing right to left...


Dog Picks up left hand go bird.
handler sends dog for next shortest middle mird. 
Dog goes to AOF,,, establishes a hunt,, but is having a hard time finding bird.. Hunt progressivly gets deeper, untill the dog winds the far right hand bird then picks *it* up,,,

Dog brings That bird back. handler lines dog Back up for center bird... Dog goes back to center birds AOF and finds bird..


What are you failing me for AGAIN???


Gooser


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

MooseGooser v2.0 said:


> people ignored my post about HRC judges telling handlers to "pick up in any order"
> 
> So,,
> 
> ...


Exactly what Bill was saying. Judge what you see.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

So how many of these 126 post speak to the op's question?


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Virtually none. But don't deny folks a thread to pick the fly poop outta the pepper shaker. That's why the good Lord (or was it Al Gore) made the internet!


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

It's simple, run both and you'll have good dog. 

I run several of each every year. What is the difference?.... In my opinion, master is more difficult than hrc finished. Master has turned into mini opens. Most are very technical now days. You will see concepts like indents, inlines, 2 down the shore, and others. You rarely see these things in hrc. Marks will be much tighter in akc than in hrc. On another note... Master doesn't judge line manners as tightly as hrc. So if you have that high drive dog it may be easier to keep him in the hunt at an Akc test. 

Now to which one is more realistic. Akc masters are not realistic. They have guns fired from the gunning station throwing the birds, as well as you holding a wooden gun... How often does your dog hear a shot where the bird is coming from when your hunting? How often is your dog required to pick up technical marking setups while hunting?... Master has turned into a mini field trial with a gun now days. Now there's nothing wrong with that. It takes a far more highly trained dog to make a MH than a HRCH dog. HRC on the other hand is realistic. The only gunfire comes from you. The dog must follow the gun barrel to see the marks. Marks are most of the time very spred out with less technicality to the setups. 

So, back to what I said at the start. Running both will give a very complete dog.


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

i've wondered this since i joined and this thread reminded me...why are there only 10 posts per page? all the other forums i'm on have 25 or 30 posts per page. it keeps the page count down so when i log on after a few hours i dont have to go back 4 pages i can just hit last page.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

MooseGooser v2.0 said:


> people ignored my post about HRC judges telling handlers to "pick up in any order"
> 
> So,,
> 
> ...


I would never fail this dog. This is the same situation I was referring to in an earlier post.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think we have basically answered the OP question and stayed on topic..
I dont think answeres that say the one Venue is harder than the other is much of an answer..

Harder is subjective,, and depends on what your dog abilities have been TRAINED.

I do think that One of the BIG differences is how each venues rules define a Mark. I think it a Key difference between the venues..

Hrc says for all levels that in order for a dog to have shown it Marked a bird, the dog must :

1. Go directly to the AOF
2. Once there,, establishe a hunt..

That is what is required in all levels, from Started to the Grand.

In Finished.. the SEMINAR teaches:

The Finished retriever is judged on marking skilss exactly as was theStarted and Seasoned dog. The Retriever must proceede directly to the AOF and establish a hunt or the bird in the AOF. If a Handler elects to handle a dog on a marked retrieve, judges must decide if these requirements were met BEFORE the Handling began.

It also goes on to say:

The judges should look for the retriever to diligently and persistently hunt for the bird. If the retriever compleated the marking elements, and is subsequently handled IN THE AREA OF FALL, the dog should not be scored lower..

If you look at the AKC rule book,, it defines Marking in a similar way, but it includes a statement of something like this:

Dog goes to the AOF, establishes a hunt,, *finds the bird*..
It must find the bird to demonstrate marking per rule...

This is why you hear people counting handles at AKC tests..
If you have to handle to find the bird,, you MAY be in trouble if it happens very often.( 1 Handle rule)

A Handle *IN THE AREA* of Fall in HRC SHOULDNT get a dog marked down if it is clean and precise.. The dog has shown its Marking and memory ablity, by going directly to the AOF and establishing a Hunt.. Marking and Memory is Over (graded)at that point in time...

A Handle *TO THE AOF* in a HRC test will get you marked down for marking and memory.... If it happens on subsequent marks,, you will be failed..

I am sure there will be anecdotal stories to follow, that debunk the above...

All I am saying is what the RULES and SEMINAR teaches..


Gooser


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

blake_mhoona said:


> i've wondered this since i joined and this thread reminded me...why are there only 10 posts per page? all the other forums i'm on have 25 or 30 posts per page. it keeps the page count down so when i log on after a few hours i dont have to go back 4 pages i can just hit last page.


Blake,

Go to top of page, horizontal blue line, LHS, User CP.

edit options

display options, change number of posts per page.

Jim


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Dman said:


> Maybe they are trying to do you a favor? How do you know what they are looking for?


I doubt if they are doing anyone any "favors". I don't know exactly what they are looking for, but I do know what a reasonably good blind should look like. The line to the blind is usually pretty obvious. You shouldn't have to ask, and the judges shouldn't have to tell you where the line to the blind is.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> I doubt if they are doing anyone any "favors". I don't know exactly what they are looking for, but I do know what a reasonably good blind should look like. The line to the blind is usually pretty obvious. You shouldn't have to ask, and the judges shouldn't have to tell you where the line to the blind is.


I agree, and additionally judges who tell handlers up front what they want, paint themselves into a corner. More than once I have seen standards change as it becomes obvious a certain blind is much harder than the judges thought when they set it up. 

That said I believe handlers can drive themselves crazy trying to read judges minds on whether it would be a failure if your dog was a few inces right of that rock that is slightly right of the line. I ran a very difficult AA land blind under Steve Parker a few years ago. The blind was long with lots of hazzards, but thirty yards out there was a little irrigation stand pipe almost on line, if a little right. I didn't even notice it, but handlers started over thinking the test and made it a point to be left of that pipe. My first dog lined out there just left of the pipe, so no problem there, but my other dog was right and it took three cast to get left of that pipe. At the conclusion of the blind Steve asked me why everyone was trying so hard to be left of that pipe. I told him it was a big subject of conversation back in the gallery. he just laughed and said they didn't even notice it, and there were a lot bigger issue to worry about down line.

Understanding what a reasonable line to the blind is takes experience, common sense and being dropped a few times when you didn't "challenge" the blind to the judges satisfaction. One more thing, isn't it true that in hunt test at the end of the day you can ask to see your judges sheet and ask for a critique? That would be helpful in learning what judges expect for the future.


John


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> isn't it true that in hunt test at the end of the day you can ask to see your judges sheet and ask for a critique? That would be helpful in learning what judges expect for the future.
> 
> 
> John


Yes that is true.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

From AKC rulebook:
Handlers and owners shall be permitted to review their own dog’s evaluation sheets at the conclusion of the test or when, in the judgment of the Test Secretary, it will not interfere with the computation of scores. Judges are not required to rationalize their scores for handlers.


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

T-Pines said:


> Blake,
> 
> Go to top of page, horizontal blue line, LHS, User CP.
> 
> ...


Well I got something out of this post thanks Jim!!!


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

> Understanding what a reasonable line to the blind is takes experience, common sense and being dropped a few times when you didn't "challenge" the blind to the judges satisfaction. John


So true.

I remember judging a young man and his dog several years ago. The dog was passing until the land blind. The young man sent his dog who took a wide and long banana line to the blind without a single whistle. His friends were hollering and clapping from the gallery for "lining that blind." I looked at my co-judge and told him I wasn’t looking forward to the conversation at the banquet. The man didn't understand why he failed. But I bet he never made the same mistake again. We all learn one way or another to challenge the blind.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> From rulebook:
> Handlers and owners shall be permitted to review their own dog’s evaluation sheets at the conclusion of the test


In HRC, the judges are "supposed" to show ONLY the handler the dog's scoresheet. The handler can then convey their message to the dog's owner. Also, in HRC, the judges are to tell the handler at the conclusion of the test (land or water) if the dog has failed. Sometimes, this is not possible as the judges need to "talk" between them, but most of the time if the judges know, the are required to tell the handler.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Robert said:


> So true.
> 
> I remember judging a young man and his dog several years ago. The dog was passing until the land blind. The young man sent his dog who took a wide and long banana line to the blind without a single whistle. His friends were hollering and clapping from the gallery for "lining that blind." I looked at my co-judge and told him I wasn’t looking forward to the conversation at the banquet. The man didn't understand why he failed. But I bet he never made the same mistake again. We all learn one way or another to challenge the blind.


 
I dont agree with you on why you failed the dog!
What HRC rule did you show the Handler??
There are no predetermined routes. per rule.
I have looked in the HRCrule book,, and I cant find "challenge the blind"

The seminar says this:
The Judge will not require the retriever to run a predetermined route or channel..

A predetermined route or channel is defined as a specific track or course the judge is requiring the retriever to run...

I could see it,, if you told the handler he failed because he never demonstrated control of the dog, by not blowing a whistle,, but Failer to "Challenge the Blind???

I think my comment is supported by what the Seminar teaches again..

" Remember: If a dog gets out of controll at any point in the blind retrieve, it has Failed the test"

He never showed you any control.... 

Gooser


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

It’s threads like this that keep me not wanting to get into FT or HT or any other competitions. There are too many varying opinions on how people interpret the rules for someone new to even begin to understand what they need to do to even start. One judge will fail you for this and that while another will pass you because he/she understands the differently. Every “Rules” thread here goes 10 pages, even if you have 40 posts per page. I don’t know how you guys keep things in order but you seem to have a passion for this stuff which I think is pretty awesome. You’re just probably not going to see me out there. Enjoy it!


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

Gooser,

You are correct sir! The pit falls of terminology. In HRC lingo I should of said it was a control issue. The fact remains as a judge I don't want to see a dog do a half-moon and hunt to the blind without a whistle, i.e., control.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Againnnn......

Just stating what the RULES and SEMINAR teaches.....

Not what my experiences have been with judges and THEIR INTERPRETATIONS of them..


Gooser


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

GulfCoast said:


> Virtually none. But don't deny folks a thread to pick the fly poop outta the pepper shaker. That's why the good Lord (or was it Al Gore) made the internet!


That's funny right there.

I think it was Gooser who posted the HRC rules on diversion birds. On the seasoned tests I have run the diversion was close but off line from the return when thrown. At every finished test I've seen (which is only 6 or so) the bird was thrown directly on line and almost hit a couple dogs in the face. My training partners MH went out for switching in a finished test when the diversion literally landed at his feet. (obviously the dog still shouldn't drop the bird he had to pick up the diversion). The way I read the rule posted, it looks like this isn't how the diversion should be thrown, even in finished?


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> It’s threads like this that keep me not wanting to get into FT or HT or any other competitions. There are too many varying opinions on how people interpret the rules for someone new to even begin to understand what they need to do to even start. One judge will fail you for this and that while another will pass you because he/she understands the differently. Every “Rules” thread here goes 10 pages, even if you have 40 posts per page. I don’t know how you guys keep things in order but you seem to have a passion for this stuff which I think is pretty awesome. You’re just probably not going to see me out there. Enjoy it!


Please do not let threads like this dissuade you from trying out the dog games. It really isn't as complicated as it sounds here, but what you have are a lot of people that have run dozens (or many more) tests over several years and if you run enough you'll see tests or rule interpretations that seem out of line with the rules on occasion. 

It's not like this kind of controversy goes on at every test. In fact, over the 5 yrs I've been attending and/or running tests I've only seen 1 or 2 minor issues brought up. You always have the sore losers that want to blame the judges, throwers, weather, grounds, running order, "bitches in heat" or anything other than them or their dog for failing, but that's just part of human nature. 

Find a good club, attend and/or run a couple tests and form your opinions based on what you SEE, not what you read on the internet. I can almost guarantee that if you give it a try you will see where the addiction comes from.

.


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## Daniel J Simoens (Jul 7, 2011)

Rick_C said:


> Please do not let threads like this dissuade you from trying out the dog games. It really isn't as complicated as it sounds here, but what you have are a lot of people that have run dozens (or many more) tests over several years and if you run enough you'll see tests or rule interpretations that seem out of line with the rules on occasion.
> 
> It's not like this kind of controversy goes on at every test. In fact, over the 5 yrs I've been attending and/or running tests I've only seen 1 or 2 minor issues brought up. You always have the sore losers that want to blame the judges, throwers, weather, grounds, running order, "bitches in heat" or anything other than them or their dog for failing, but that's just part of human nature.
> 
> ...


Fair enough and I am *slowly* getting my toes wet in this dog training stuff with my first dog. There is a local test this weekend that I would have liked to attend but have a bachelor party for a wedding I'm standing up in. I will look into when the next test will be though and check things out. It's just bad press to read threads like this and hear stories of people traveling to certain events because Judge X is or isn't going to be there. This is a whole new world to me! ha


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Daniel J Simoens said:


> Fair enough and I am *slowly* getting my toes wet in this dog training stuff with my first dog. There is a local test this weekend that I would have liked to attend but have a bachelor party for a wedding I'm standing up in. I will look into when the next test will be though and check things out. It's just bad press to read threads like this and hear stories of people traveling to certain events because Judge X is or isn't going to be there. This is a whole new world to me! ha


Great idea. When you get there, don't be shy. Introduce yourself. Ask questions, let folks know this is the first test you've seen and you will quickly find out that most people are extrememly friendly and willing to help out a new guy any way they can. If you play your cards right you may even come away with a new training group! 

.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Daniel

I agrre with what Rick C told you. Dont be discouraged by these internet discussions.

I find it fun to talk rule book and application. Sometimes I is Plain Devils advocate to spur peoples opinions. Sometimes Ya learn all kinds a things.

The HRC tests I have run in the past have ALWAYS been a very pleasant experience. I have NEVER run under a Ball Buster Judge,, the Tests I have failed,, It was very apparent and Obvious I wasnt going to Pass...

Some of the Passes I recieved,, the judges were MORE than fair,, and gave benifit to the dog, taking into consideration, WHO their handler was!!!

I even had 1 Judge Hug Bailey as I was leaving the line and say "'poor Dog,, Your owner tried tried at least!"

Go run em and have fun!! Thats what its really all about..

Gooser


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## blake_mhoona (Mar 19, 2012)

Jeff Huntington said:


> Well I got something out of this post thanks Jim!!!


i'm starting to think that this is the only helpful and definitive thing in here!


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Robert said:


> Gooser,
> 
> You are correct sir! The pit falls of terminology. In HRC lingo I should of said it was a control issue. The fact remains as a judge I don't want to see a dog do a half-moon and hunt to the blind without a whistle, i.e., control.


could it be SOB?


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

blake_mhoona said:


> i'm starting to think that this is the only helpful and definitive thing in here!


Actually Blake being new to this stuff you just have to be careful on too much interpetation from the posts. There is some good dialogue but also some not so good stuff.

Best way to learn is to do it. Failed first finished test because my girl was slow turning in water on the whistle, so I would blow it twice thinking I was helping....but when I blew it the second time, it was as if I had a whistle slip (ignoring whistle command) and I was being marked down. 2-3 of those and I'm bleeding bad.

Didn't know until I ran and bet that it has never occurred again.

Jeff


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

MooseGooser v2.0 said:


> I dont agree with you on why you failed the dog!
> What HRC rule did you show the Handler??
> There are no predetermined routes. per rule.
> I have looked in the HRCrule book,, and I cant find "challenge the blind"
> ...





Robert said:


> Gooser,
> 
> You are correct sir! The pit falls of terminology. In HRC lingo I should of said it was a control issue. The fact remains as a judge I don't want to see a dog do a half-moon and hunt to the blind without a whistle, i.e., control.


Gooser, according to the HRC rules and seminar, you could, on a water blind, send your dog 45 degrees off line to the nearest piece of land, cast him on land parralell to the water, then give him a 90 degree over to the bird and pass an HRC blind. Is that true? The dog was never out of control, the dog took the route the handler gave and the judge has no say so in regards to the route.

If that is true then is it any wonder that handler used to running blinds in this manner is disappointed at the end of (or after the first series of) an AKC hunt test.

I may try that at an HRC test, whch ever way my dog goes, I'll put my hand out in that direction. Since the route taken can't be dictated by the judge, as long as the dog stops on the whistle and eventually stumbles on the bird, I should be golden.;-)

Robert, what if the handler blows the whistle, and casts his dog in that same half moon (dog takes every cast), 10-15 yards off the true line to the bird?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

HRC rules grade initial line

Finished blinds require. Good initial line to start off with
It is up to handler to line the dog initially straight toward the blind,
Then show control to kelp the dog there

How much deviation is allowed is subjective by the judges.
I have found it's very important to show good control with HRC blinds 
It just falls into place, that if you do that, the "line"
Will be fine. But, per rule it's about ?Control more than
Route or straight

Dog can be given a correction cast to get them back in position
As long as cast is taken , dog is fine

I think your analogy is ridiculous to the extream


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

MooseGooser v2.0 said:


> I dont agree with you on why you failed the dog!
> What HRC rule did you show the Handler??
> There are no predetermined routes. per rule.
> I have looked in the HRCrule book,, and I cant find "challenge the blind"
> ...



IX. Lining the blind is not required. The Finished Hunting Retriever should demonstrate the ability to take an initial line toward the blind and a willingness and ability to respond to the commands from the Handler. The Finished Hunting Retriever must stay under control and pick up the bird quickly and efficiently. The judge will not require the retriever to run a predefined route or channel.

The dog failed the blind this day for "Lack of Control". You show the handler the sheet with the line the dog took and tell he failed this blind for Lack of Control. Pretty simple


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Gooser, according to the HRC rules and seminar, you could, on a water blind, send your dog 45 degrees off line to the nearest piece of land, cast him on land parralell to the water, then give him a 90 degree over to the bird and pass an HRC blind. Is that true? The dog was never out of control, the dog took the route the handler gave and the judge has no say so in regards to the route.
> 
> If that is true then is it any wonder that handler used to running blinds in this manner is disappointed at the end of (or after the first series of) an AKC hunt test.
> 
> ...


First paragraph
There have now been more than three direct quotes from the HRC rulebook, but apparently you haven't read them. 

Second paragraph
Cannot believe you even posted that statement. 

Third paragraph
Go ahead and try your perception and see if you get a pass slip and the end of the day in an HRC Finished test. Bet ya don't.

Forth paragraph
Would not pass under me.

Respectfully

Janet


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Janet Kimbrough said:


> First paragraph
> There have now been more than three direct quotes from the HRC rulebook, but apparently you haven't read them.
> 
> Second paragraph
> ...


 

Of course Lining the dog incorrectly causing a poor intial line,, then not Handeling to correct it would not pass under any HRC finished Judge...

Finished dog is responsible for a good initial line... Then handler showing control IF the dog deviates from that good initial line....

How MUCH the dog can deviate from from that initial line is subject to judges decision.. The Judge CANT however demand you take a sliver of water,, run between two stumps .. He cant designate a route.

All that can be judged is Initial line,,, then If control is of Finished quality to keep the dog on that line....

I did quote the Seminar... on specific items... I did NOT quote the whole rule book... 
CaptnJack..... You know this,,,, I detect a bit of sarcasum..

Gooser


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

MooseGooser v2.0 said:


> Of course Lining the dog incorrectly causing a poor intial line,, then not Handeling to correct it would not pass under any HRC finished Judge...
> 
> Finished dog is responsible for a good initial line... Then handler showing control IF the dog deviates from that good initial line....
> 
> ...


My point is that if the rules require the dog to take a good initial line (I'm assuming "good" = toward the bird and not just in the direction sent by the handler), and the rules require the dog be handled when he deviates form that line, and the rules require the dog take the casts given, then, in fact, the line, route or channel has beed defined. The judge may not be defining the line, but the judging is defining it. This is no different than AKC really.

I've only just started judging field trials (don't judge hunt tests because both the HRC and AKC want hunters to judge those) but I promise you, if there are two hay bales 10 yards apart and the line to the blind I set up is right down the middle of them, your dog better be between those hay bales or you better hope none of the other dogs got between them either (or maybe if you smashed the marks and gave it one heck of an effort to get between them). Same goes for either getting on a point or swimming by a point. If I want your dog on it, it will be on line. If I don't want your dog on it, it won't be on line. And I don't mean by a couple of feet, it will be more clear than that. Instructions would be: there is the blind, run from the mat, handler can move between x and y. Did I define the line or route the dog must take? Not explicitly.

And FWIW, regardless of what any of the rules or judging seminars say, if my dog won't cast between the hay bales, cast to get on a point, or cast to swim by a point in a HT, we're going to the house. I will not accept multiple cast refusals (and I will make multiple casts to do the blind as it is set up) and have the dog be rewarded with a bird just to get a pass. For full disclosure, I may accept missing a keyhole for a shot a winning a field trial.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Catnjack! 

I do really respect you but the following says quite a bit

And FWIW, regardless of what any of the rules or judging seminars say, if my dog won't cast between the hay bales, cast to get on a point, or cast to swim by a point in a HT, we're going to the house. I will not accept multiple cast refusals (and I will make multiple casts to do the blind as it is set up) and have the dog be rewarded with a bird just to get a pass. For full disclosure, I may accept missing a keyhole for a shot a winning a field trial.
I hope you werent saying you would inpose YOUR standards if you were judging!,, and not the written standard.
There was"nt any mention of accepting MULTIPLE cast refusals...

Multiple cast refusals wont pass a Finished test..

How many times have you seen the Handlers hold up two fingers to get an idea of the Corridor? That corridor gets pretty big at distance doesnt it?

respectfully

Gooser


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Gooser I believe Glen was stating HIS standards for HIS dogs performance independent of what the rules allow. He's saying he's going to hold his dog accountable whether or not the dogs poor (in his eyes) work would pass a HT. Not that he'd impose his opinions into decisions as a judge.

.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Rick_C said:


> Gooser I believe Glen was stating HIS standards for HIS dogs performance independent of what the rules allow. He's saying he's going to hold his dog accountable whether or not the dogs poor (in his eyes) work would pass a HT. Not that he'd impose his opinions into decisions as a judge.
> 
> .


Exactly. And I don't judge hunt tests. 

Discussions like this (or topics like this) are one reason I like field trials. There is no meeting the standard really. Unless you have an eliminating fault, of course. All I have to do is decide which dogs are doing the best relative to the field, and then call back those that still have a shot at placing, considering the amount of testing that remains.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Dman said:


> I'll issue a challenge to Gavin and any others that think a short mark cannot be a challenge. Come and run any event I judge and help set up, and you just might leave with your tail tucked between your legs over a 40 yrd mark. A short mark, placed correctly, can be some of the most difficult, challenging marks for a lot of dogs and handlers to deal with.
> 
> This notion that distance is the primary and only factor in a mark is bs. Venue is not relavent.


Where's the "like" button?


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Jeff and Dman-

EXACTLY but that isn't really what this is all about, OP wanted to know the difference the biggest difference in HRC is the gun and the "stuff" happening at the line with the calling and shots. HUNTING DOGS get ramped up when the shotgun gets racked


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Both are great sports. They give us more than one game to play with these animals. I play HRC/AKC HTs and run FT minor stakes and enjoy them all. Don't compare the games because you can't. They all are different and judged different. Its like trying to compare rugby to football. Good dog work comes from all of them. Every title deserves respect.


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## BuddyJ (Apr 22, 2011)

wbf
You just said it all


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Glenn,
Let me give you some of my understanding of how the "you can't define the line to the blind" rule came into being. I am not a representative of HRC so my viewpoint may be skewed. Most of my information is 3rd or 4th hand so may or may not be accurate. At one time in HRC tests certain judges were placing logs or tight keyholes on the way to a blind. These judges failed every dog that missed the keyhole or didn't jump the log. As an organization that has a motto "For hunters by hunters" that type of judging was felt to be against the spirit of HRC. Most felt that the dog and handler working as a team was more important than hitting one obstacle on the way to the blind. Just as in field trials these blinds are easy to judge. The dog either hits the keyhole or not. So a rule was passed to combat what was apparently a problem at the time. 

FWIW
Mark Land


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Started as a PM, but thought I'd post one more time...

On the judging of a blind, I think there will always be some judges that will put you out for missing a keyhole/log/point etc. regardless of the effort given to hit it, there will be others that won't put you out if you make an effort to hit it, and there will be still others that won't put you out even if you make no effort to handle the dog to hit the keyhole/log/point, etc. I think this is true in HRC and AKC.

I don't judge hunt tests, but I think any handler that doesn't make an attempt to hit the keyhole (given that the keyhole is a reasonable width - decent handler with fast dog can get at least 2 casts), should be sent home. Not for missing the keyhole really, but rather for not showing control by keeping their dog on line to the blind. In other words the dog would be out in my book for lack of control even if there was no keyhole to hit.

On every blind, there are only two places the dog must be exactly on line. One is at the mat (or bucket), the second is at the bird. Everywhere else along the line, the dog can be off line to some degree. To me, a reasonable (decent handler with fast dog can get at least 2 casts) keyhole, log, point, etc. gives the handler a visual point of reference to know just how far off line the dog can be.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I have been told several "senior" HRC members that one of the reasons for the "judges cannot declare an exact line to the blind" rule was due to "trot line blinds." Judges would flag a "window" at a point on the line to the blind and say, "that is a trot line, swim your dog around it and then get them back on line." That may be an old wives tale, but its a pretty common one down here.


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## jbday (Nov 8, 2009)

If you have both available to you, it is to your dog's advantage to be able to perform in both.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

DoubleHaul said:


> The biggest difference is that it is perfectly okay to bash AKC tests on RTF but if you even think about saying anything negative about HRC, it will result in a dogpile.
> 
> Neither are much like hunting but they do test dogs on skills that they can use while hunting.


I don't see it that way at all. I see many more smart ass remarks about HRC than AKC. Maybe we're reading different threads?


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## O.clarki (Feb 7, 2012)

duk4me said:


> I've started a new venue RNRC, Red Neck Retriever Club. We all meet at the cabin drink lots of beer, either grill boil or fry something, and tell lies about our dogs.
> 
> Haven't had a dog fail one of our test yet. Try it alot less drama than those other test.


DUDE I'm in on that test..


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