# HRC Magazine - UKC switching all dilute 'Labs' to "Unrecognized Breed"



## fishdogs (Sep 14, 2009)

If there is active thread here, can someone please post a link so this is not a duplicate?

If not, on page 14 of the HRC magazine, UKC's new registration procedures for Labrador Retrievers are printed.

the highlights are:

1.) All new single registrations MUST include 3 color photos.
2.) Any dog registered as a Labrador Retriever that is switched to a Performance Listing (PL-offspring are not eligible for registration). will be PL registered as "UNR" unrecognized breed.

This will effectively make them ineligible for UKC Hunting Retriever titles.

UKC is NOT calling for clubs/judges to DQ dogs on the basis of color, but they can be reported for UKC to investigate if the dog is registered incorrectly.

It has been UKC's registration policy that dogs with DQ faults must be PL (formerly LP registered), so they are basically just cracking down on digs that have been and continue to be registered incorrectly.


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## 12jfallin (Nov 2, 2015)

It's about time! That's so awesome. AKC needs to do the same, now.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

As said in previous threads, dogs still get to run. Who will be reporting dogs which are improperly registered? If you say "judges", count me out.


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## Kaiser878 (Apr 17, 2015)

Thomas D said:


> As said in previous threads, dogs still get to run. Who will be reporting dogs which are improperly registered? If you say "judges", count me out.


why count you out


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Because as a judge I would not report anyone. Judges judge, period. We aren't there to police the breed for confirmation.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Thomas D said:


> Because as a judge I would not report anyone. Judges judge, period. We aren't there to police the breed for confirmation.


Should it not be everyone's responsibility? Perhaps judges tell the HT committee and they report? I in no way shape or form think a judge should be judging color, breed or anything other than how the dog does its work, but reporting this after you get home on Monday, why not?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

No it should not be the judges responsibility. I have too much going on to try to do this also.
A HT committee member is usually in each flight. If it's everyone's responsibility, all handlers should also be reporting it.. They are the ones to do this. If you are reporting this on Monday morning, you're back to judging color.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

This policy will simply move the dilute dogs to another hunt test venue.


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## fishdogs (Sep 14, 2009)

Hopefully it will be a step towards encouraging them to create their own breed. 

As for judges reporting, it's not like it's hard to identify silver dilute dogs. Competitors and people who care about the breed are the ones who pointed out how out of hand the issue has gotten. and I'm sure they will still be proactive about reporting. I applaud UKC being proactive about solving the problem. 

As much as I dislike those who intentionally breed these DQ fault dogs, I do believe that the individual HRC clubs should be able to decide what dogs can run their tests. Saw a German Shephard run an HRC started test and a JRT ran at a training day. They are not eligible for titles and should not take space up from eligible breeds that do want to run, but if other breeds want to play, and are willing to follow the rules, there is some reasoning for letting them run as long as there is room and it is safe.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Maybe before awarding a title they will require the D locus test for dilute to be clear. That way no one is responsible for turning dogs in and they will move on by themselves and not run unless they want to dispute a DNA test.


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## Rhenee Fadling (May 23, 2008)

At this point it's up to the individual clubs to decide. It's hard to turn entries away. Clubs don't want to be the heavy, but the onus falls on the HRC/UKC organizations on how they want to handle the registrations in the future or those that are registered to give the clubs a clue about a dogs origins. However, per the most recent rule book, page 9, "Who Can Participate", permanently registered UKC/LP dogs have preference over non-registered dogs.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

fishdogs said:


> Hopefully it will be a step towards encouraging them to create their own breed.
> 
> As for judges reporting, it's not like it's hard to identify silver dilute dogs. Competitors and people who care about the breed are the ones who pointed out how out of hand the issue has gotten. and I'm sure they will still be proactive about reporting. I applaud UKC being proactive about solving the problem.
> 
> As much as I dislike those who intentionally breed these DQ fault dogs, I do believe that the individual HRC clubs should be able to decide what dogs can run their tests. Saw a German Shephard run an HRC started test and a JRT ran at a training day. They are not eligible for titles and should not take space up from eligible breeds that do want to run, but if other breeds want to play, and are willing to follow the rules, there is some reasoning for letting them run as long as there is room and it is safe.


Just to be clear, it wasn't the HT people who were doing the complaining.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Anything that makes it harder for the charlatans who are scamming ill informed buyers and damaging our breed is good IMO.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> Maybe before awarding a title they will require the D locus test for dilute to be clear. That way no one is responsible for turning dogs in and they will move on by themselves and not run unless they want to dispute a DNA test.


They'll just falsify those papers like they've done the others.


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## CWalters (Jul 19, 2016)

newbie question here... by "dilute dogs" and references to their color, are they referring to the silvers/charcoals/fox reds?


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

CWalters said:


> newbie question here... by "dilute dogs" and references to their color, are they referring to the silvers/charcoals/fox reds?


"Fox Red" is not a dilute as far as I've ever heard. "Silver" and "charcoal" are. "Fox Red" is just a dark shade of yellow and is registered as such.


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## CWalters (Jul 19, 2016)

HuntinDawg said:


> "Fox Red" is not a dilute as far as I've ever heard. "Silver" and "charcoal" are. "Fox Red" is just a dark shade of yellow and is registered as such.


Interesting... thanks for your reply


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

This is from an earlier thread. I would be surprised if HRC has changed their stance on what the judges duties are:

Went to the HRC national meeting UKC was there,the offical stance is HRC performance judges are not required and are not qualified to report such things. Performance judges are qualified to judge performance, not to make judgement on breeds, nor hypothesize how dog running under them are registered. Just judge the dogs put in front of them. When the ukc put out their stance for silvers, it was for conformation judges to report silver dogs running conformation events. Basically UKC stated that they don't consider silver to be a shade of chocolate and registering them as such was fraudulent. Still the only way they are really checking is providing an offical statement and making anyone with the word silver in the registered name submit photos, also having conformation judges report any that are running conformation events.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> Because as a judge I would not report anyone. Judges judge, period. We aren't there to police the breed for confirmation.


I'd be happy to step forward to the committee or whomever would be in charge of it. I think, yes we are in charge of judging performance but if we ignore them-it is the same as condoning them. Judge the dog yes-but speak with the committee to be sure theyre on top of it


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## Kaiser878 (Apr 17, 2015)

I guess heres my take on it. I understand why it would irritate anyone as a judge to be told they "had" to report them. I get that, but thats not the case... The way my mind works is as follows; if im a judge for UKC events, then I obviously have a vested interest in the breeds involved. So I would do anything I could to remove/stop/regulate something that was diluting the breeds involved. Whether it was my duty or not, I would make a small note in a paper tablet when one of these half breeds made their way through my test. THen on monday I would shoot a email to the UKC with the test name, what dog number they were and notify them that the aforementioned dogs were suspiciously silver in color.. 

I mean is that all that difficult? THere is finally something being done about the destruction of the labrador retriever and now people are saying "well it isnt my job." News flash, its everyones job who has any care for the breed or the breed standard. I agree with billie, if you ignore it because its "not your job," its the same as condoning it..


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

No it's not condoning them. It's staying within you described duties As a HT judge. If and when they change the judges duties, fine.

If you are on this committee, when are you going to tell this person. Before they run or after? When they pass and try to get a ribbon and points?


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## Kaiser878 (Apr 17, 2015)

Thomas D said:


> No it's not condoning them. It's staying within you described duties As a HT judge. If and when they change the judges duties, fine.
> 
> If you are on this committee, when are you going to tell this person. Before they run or after? When they pass and try to get a ribbon and points?


I'm not sure how they are going to go about the technicalities of it. Obviously it will not be anyone's job but the ukc to notify the owner. Judges, or bystanders could.make a mental or paper note with all the info and submitt it, unbenounced to the owner. So no confronations occur of course. But if you are running a dog that doesn't meet the breed standard, sorry about your luck, that's your fault.for buying a questionable dog. 

I guess if I were heading the committee I would contact the owner of the dog when I was given the information concerning the dogs color. I would explain to them that silvers are no longer accepted and shouldn't have been in the first place. Photo verification would be required and they would be listed as such, ineligible. Obviously people are going to try to chest the system. So there has to be a way to correct the problem. If the person sends a photo of a brown dog then things would need to be handled differently, because they are obviously lieing. I assume there are not to many titled silver, charcoal, champagne labs running around. I'm sure there's some, but probably.not many. 

I have ran into one in akc, it was missing 90% of its hair and looked like a hyena. Pretty easy to tell it was a mutant.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

So the owner will tell you I have the Akc and UKC papers that say the dog is chocolate. He already has a HR title. What do you do then, say well someone at the test told me your dog looked as if it were a dilute. Sorry no ribbon or points for you.


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## Kaiser878 (Apr 17, 2015)

Thomas D said:


> So the owner will tell you I have the Akc and UKC papers that say the dog is chocolate. He already has a HR title. What do you do then, say well someone at the test told me your dog looked as if it were a dilute. Sorry no ribbon or points for you.


It's gotta start somewhere. So, yes. Once it's verified the dog is a silver, they are stripped of ukc titles. They can keep their silly ribbins.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Thomas D said:


> So the owner will tell you I have the Akc and UKC papers that say the dog is chocolate. He already has a HR title. What do you do then, say well someone at the test told me your dog looked as if it were a dilute. Sorry no ribbon or points for you.


This is exactly what SHOULDN'T happen in my opinion. Take a pic on your phone, write down dogs name reg # send to UKC, their responsibility to deal with it. In no way shape or form would I ever suggest the club or judges should make an on the spot decision. Mix breeds are allowed to run and earn titles, why should dilutes be any different, they just aren't allowed to be bred. Simple starting solution to a complex problem.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Who verified it was a dilute, and how did they verify it?


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Thomas D said:


> Who verified it was a dilute, and how did they verify it?


Again UKC's job, our job if we think its wrong, is to report it. Would you report somone running a coonhound registered as a lab?


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Absurd comment.
We'll see how all of this goes, but I would bet nothing changes at the HT level.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i think a club that can tell me what color pants to wear should absolutely be willing to tell me what color dog to bring!;-)


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## Kaiser878 (Apr 17, 2015)

Haha Roger that statement. Ha


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

roseberry said:


> i think a club that can tell me what color pants to wear should absolutely be willing to tell me what color dog to bring!;-)


Hahaha Yes.


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## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

roseberry said:


> i think a club that can tell me what color pants to wear should absolutely be willing to tell me what color dog to bring!;-)


That made me smile this morning  Thank you!


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## big trax (Mar 31, 2015)

My hat is off to the UKC for at least trying. It isn't perfect, but what ever is? Cheaters cheat and liers lie. There is no way to beat them. Nothing stops a person from snapping a pic of a good looking choco pup and sending it to UKC to get papers on their pup they did not take a pic of. So, now pup is at a test and I as a participant or judge or official see the dilute, report it to the UKC. They have the manpower to check all these reports out? Heck no. It won't stop a thing, but at least they have made a statement.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

I was under the impression that the dog, if dilute, would Not be given full breeding rights and listed as UKC's version of limited registration. This would not limit their ability to enter performance events like HRC events. It would just restrict the registration of litters or offspring from those dogs. Meaning it has nothing to do with an HRC judge who is just judging the performance of the dog in front of them. Am I wrong?


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

(Also i am delighted UKC is taking this step! I wish AKC would follow. Especially in my other breed with tricolor and lemon)


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## fishdogs (Sep 14, 2009)

The meat of this is that if UKC is notified that a dog is dilute, they investigate and if they determine the dog is dilute, they have the power to change the registration to performance listing as an UNR (unrecognized) breed, which are NOT eligible for hunting TITLES. For those who said hunting folks don't care or are not the ones who complained, you are mistaken. Maybe ALL of them don't care, but since HRC is the venue that dilute breeders are choosing to exploit, several have been reported, and that is what started the effort that has led to this.

Dilute breeders have been using UKC hunt tests to promote their dogs. Get a picture of 3 or 4 dilutes together at the breeder's with their SHR pass ribbons, and it make them look more legit. Woo Hoo the dog got it's SHR title, so now that it's titled, it's worth a $1500 stud fee, because of the COLOR and no other reason. No matter that there are 1,000's of BYC dogs with way better ability, temperament, pedigrees, clearances, and conformation out there to choose from. These dilute dogs are sold on the premise of rare COLOR and nothing else, and THAT is the problem.

UKC is being proactive to get them out of their registry, but UKC only has so many eyes. 


Keep in mind that UKC's rules are clear - dogs with DQ faults MUST be registered as PL (formerly LP) if someone has not done that, then they are in violation of UKC's registration rules already. They just haven't been caught yet.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

"Several" have been reported? Now that's a real crisis.
Come on. We all know the conformation folks are the ones who have been pushing this for several years now. If they want to do that, fine. I have no problem with that. However, don't put it on the backs of the performance judges to do what you have been unable to do. 
I haven't read the article, but would bet it will not be the judges responsibility.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I'm glad somebody is trying to stem the tide of this fraudulent activity. Now if the AKC would put ethics ahead of dollars and quit turning a blind eye to it we might be getting somewhere.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Thomas D said:


> "Several" have been reported? Now that's a real crisis.
> Come on. We all know the conformation folks are the ones who have been pushing this for several years now. If they want to do that, fine. I have no problem with that.
> ...


 Actually, Tom, you're wrong on that. I dont know one lab breeder field or show- who approves of the silver mongrels being registered as labradors.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I'm not saying how many performance people care.
I'm saying how many people complain which was
stated as "several".


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

I would guess if there is actually something done by UKC/HRC when a dilute is reported then many would step forward and help. My guess is a field rep or two would be one of those "several" to begin with. . . 

just my $0.02


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Agree 100%.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

"All dogs accepted for a Performance Listing are eligble to compete in UKC Performance and Hunting events, but not all breeds are eligable for every event."
-- excerpt from link below

http://http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News/TheUKCLimitedPrivilegeProg08082014042825PM


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

In addition to the part of page 14 that refers to "New Registration Policies Concerning Labrador Retrievers," look in the left hand column of page 14, third paragraph under the heading "New Titles issued" where it states: "Continuing to clarify on the eligibility of Silver Labs. Performance judges do not disqualify a dog on color. A dog shall not be disqualified or pedigree pulled for examination in any performance event."

It seems clear that they (the UKC) are dealing with silver labs as part of the registration process, not at the performance level.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Sorry but AKC has told Silver Breeders to register as Chocolate since the beginning. I as a hunt test judge don't care what color the dog is just as long as it does the job I'm judging. I'm not judging a conformation fault but a hunt test standard. I personally don't think its fair to allow these dogs to be registered for over a decade then strip the registration from them or any titles they have earned. I'm glad UKC has taken a stance and maybe AKC will follow but it's not my job as a judge to report a conformation fault. I also seen a post about these owners showing off there ribbons but sorry AKC conformation labs and goldens have doing that for years.


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## mrman (Feb 12, 2016)

Is there anywhere I can find this article online? The link that Laurie posted doesn't seem to work.


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## fishdogs (Sep 14, 2009)

this is the article


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

The last paragraph says it all. Judges judge period.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I don't run HRC so asking here, anything coming of this yet? I still see HRC titled dilutes being advertised with litters, (yes, AKC titled too, though they are fewer with actual HT titles). AKC doesn't give a rip, we all know that, was wondering if the "crackdown" by UKC was having any affect. I know it's a UKC registration issue, not running HRC test issue per se, but, are titles and full registration being denied to dilutes?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

In order to register any Labrador UKC it is required that you send in 3 color photos with the dog. This wasn't a requirement when I initially registered my dogs. So that has changed. I hear tell that if you are reported as having a dog with a disqualifying fault the UKC might ask for pictures to verify. Dogs cannot run Conformation, but we do still see them in hunt tests, but then again we see all sorts of dogs in UKC hunt-test; many without UKC registration. Not really a judges or hunt-test secretaries job to verify proper registrations status on every dog that runs an event. 
So some changes, attempting to bring records in line with reality; but not really an active witch hunt.

https://www.ukcdogs.com/single-registration-requirements-labrador-retriever

Now there might be a way around it as I don't think a UKC performance listing requires the dog to be spayed-neutered; unless they run HRC events. So You could run UKC events, get titles and breed. Dog wouldn't be in the UKC registry; but then you'd only go back to AKC for your papers

https://www.ukcdogs.com/performance-listing

Could always just run the events, not have an "official title" nor official registration but all the test-ribbons that would give you the title. Who asks for those "offical listings" or checks records with the registry anyway, particularly if your interests are in off-colored dog? Heck I just might have an GHRCH, FC AFC Sliver dog on the internet, if no-one looks into it.


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## Gary Wayne Abbott I (Dec 21, 2003)

I think the AKC would do well to make a simple rule that any dog must have a certified vet submitted DNA sample and that any Labrador possessing the recessive D allele gene cannot be awarded a title. 

I believe the same rule exists for pointing dog breeds. It's simple, easy, inexpensive and most importantly serves well to help maintain breed integrity. 

I think all retriever clubs should and create such a rule, vote in support of it and mandate it as as standard regulatory rule.

If not we will all increasingly live in a world of "silver" labs and labradoodles that are soon and will be more sought after, expensive and desired then well pedigreed labs.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I would go beyond having negative dilute test for any titles, I would require it for registration. If anyone is found falsifying documentation, I would prohibit future registrations of single dogs and litters for life. That might not stop all of it, but it would cut it down SIGNIFICANTLY.


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

In the bird dog world, a DNA swab is required for all Championship Winners and R-ups.

"The first addressed the most recent technology available to the pure bred dogs — DNA. The _Field Dog Stud Book_ informed of the determination that all dogs winning a championship placement, Open or Amateur (winner or runner-up), shall be required to have DNA on file with the _FDSB_. That requirement is now extended to all dogs winning open stakes earning points toward the Top Shooting Dog and All-Age Dog of the Year Awards. DNA kits (instruction sheet, swab to collect cell samples, and an application form) are available at no cost to owners and handlers and will be sent on request."

Not a big deal really. It was at the time. A National Champion was DQ'd and the breeder banned because he mis-registered dogs. The FDSB is much smaller and less organized than the AKC, so this wouldn't be that big of a deal for HT/FT titles.


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## ScottWalker (Oct 23, 2017)

Would someone be so kind as to explain to me why a Labrador with a certain gene related to the color of its fur should not be awarded a title that the dog/handler won based on performance?

If the D allele is part of the Labrador genetics then why would they need to "start their own breed?"

This all makes zero sense to me.


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

ScottWalker said:


> Would someone be so kind as to explain to me why a Labrador with a certain gene related to the color of its fur should not be awarded a title that the dog/handler won based on performance?
> 
> If the D allele is part of the Labrador genetics then why would they need to "start their own breed?"
> 
> This all makes zero sense to me.



Scott,
I think the concern is that the silver, champagne, and other "fancy" colors are working their way in. These, by definition (and according to the Labrador Retriever Club) are not purebred dogs, and therefor, can not earn a title.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

ScottWalker said:


> Would someone be so kind as to explain to me why a Labrador with a certain gene related to the color of its fur should not be awarded a title that the dog/handler won based on performance?
> 
> If the D allele is part of the Labrador genetics then why would they need to "start their own breed?"
> 
> This all makes zero sense to me.


Because the dilute gene doesn't occur naturally and was introduced by cross-breeding weimeraners and faking the paperwork to have the pups registered. The dilute is NOT recognized by the Labrador Retriever Club who sets the standard for the breed.
*
The Issue of the Silver Labrador*
Frances O Smith, DVM, PhD Chair, Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. Genetics Committee

It is the opinion of the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc., the AKC parent club for the breed, that a _silver_ Labrador is not a purebred Labrador retriever. The pet owning public is being duped into believing that animals with this dilute coat color are desirable, purebred and rare and, therefore, warrant special notoriety or a premium purchase price.

Over the past few years a limited number of breeders have advertised and sold dogs they represent to be purebred Labrador Retrievers with a dilute or gray coat color—hence the term “silver labs.” The AKC has accepted some of these “silver labs” for registration. Apparently, the rationale for this decision is that the silver coat color is a shade of chocolate. Interestingly, the original breeders of “silver” Labradors were also involved in the Weimaraner breed.

Although we cannot conclusively prove that the silver Labrador is a product of crossbreeding the Weimaraner to a Labrador, there is good evidence in scientific literature indicating that the Labrador has never been identified as carrying the dilute gene dd. The Weimaraner is the only known breed in which the universality of dd is a characteristic."


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The LRC has taken a stand that a dilute is not a purebred Labrador. The AKC made a mistake and the technology was not there at the time to prevent the Dilutes' registrations. The breed clubs should govern which dogs are accepted into the registry. Many breeds have disqualifications based on colors, particularly colors that are based on other breeds being used to cross into the breed


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

ScottWalker said:


> Would someone be so kind as to explain to me why a Labrador with a certain gene related to the color of its fur should not be awarded a title that the dog/handler won based on performance?
> 
> If the D allele is part of the Labrador genetics then why would they need to "start their own breed?"
> 
> This all makes zero sense to me.


Well, not much point in having a purebred registry and trying to preserve the genes that make a particular breed, if you're going to let anyone do anything they want anyway. Let any dog run all HT and FT and have at it. 

The dilute gene is not part of true Labrador genetics, that's why we test our Labs to prove they DON'T have it.


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## ScottWalker (Oct 23, 2017)

i was not aware of how the d allele made its way into the breed. I was assuming it was just part of their natural genetics. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I really don't think the UKC has anything against Silver labs, just that their registrations have been falsified. That and the LRC breed club who the UKC maintains records for considers the color an extreme disqualification; any pedigree associated with the color is highly suspect to also have been falsified, thus they should not be registered. Even if it wasn't a question of incorrect information, the Breed club sets it's standard, if they say, this cannot be registered as breeding stock; it shouldn't be registered as breeding stock (even if it's something simple like a color, a variety, a size). A kennel club that actually respects the rulings of the breed-club which the serve. . 

Now if the Silver Lab people were to form a breed club, and put in for foundation breed status, most likely the UKC could maintain records for them; as they have for several other foundational breed clubs (ex; multi-color poodles, and I believe boykin spaniels initially). They could then have UKC registrations run events, gain titles out in the open; but they would need to become legitimate. Effort would need to be put forth to establish a stud book, a breed standard; and accurate documentation. They'd have to give up flying under the radar.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> In order to register any Labrador UKC it is required that you send in 3 color photos with the dog. This wasn't a requirement when I initially registered my dogs. So that has changed.


When I registered my first Lab with UKC around 1995, I had to submit 3 color photos. Not sure if that was a requirement for all registrations or just for those in which both sire and dam were not UKC registered (only my pup's dam was UKC registered). Later when I registered a Lab around 2005, this was not a requirement. Just FYI. It appears that they brought back an old requirement.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

I disagree with some things HRC but one thing I?m impressed with is their strong negative stance on silvers, unlike the AKC Master Amateur Club that just sent an email with the large header photo of a silver lab. Glad I decided not to send in my check to become a lifetime charter member, one less thing to waste my Money on.


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

I think that's probably throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

There are tons of pictures out there with young handlers and labs. The picture selection was a poor choice and I'm sure they have heard about it.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Nick I downloaded that picture and it sure looks like a lighting thing particularly on the ears to make that dog look lighter. Look at the tail and rump and see a chocolate.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

jacduck said:


> Nick I downloaded that picture and it sure looks like a lighting thing particularly on the ears to make that dog look lighter. Look at the tail and rump and see a chocolate.


It is a silver and it is from a silver pedigree.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Zach Fisher said:


> I think that's probably throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> There are tons of pictures out there with young handlers and labs. The picture selection was a poor choice and I'm sure they have heard about it.


You can gauge your assumptions on probables and I’ll gauge my decisions on actuals. They sent out an email with a silver(from a highly advertised silver Breeder) plastered across the front of their email...I won’t assume, I won’t guess, I’ll just view the facts and react. Too many excuses around for too much BS these days. Maybe their newsletter editor added that at the last minute to flair up their email and is new to the game and has no idea what is going on, maybe not. Or maybe their youth handler submitted it and they wanted to support them, or maybe not. Whatever the reason is I really don’t care. Many people have emailed and voiced their opinion. It’s been 24 hours since their email and we’ve heard ZERO response. It isn’t a coincidence.

It’s something I’m strongly against and I’ll stand by my decision until further notice. Besides, they won’t miss me, I’m just a regular ole dude with an amateur trained duck fetcher and my pockets are more shallow than a north wind blown marsh.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

It's unfortunate that many folks miss the intended message from the newsletter photo and the accompanying article. It's about the handler, not the dog. The ire about "silvers" should be directed to the organization that can actually affect some change, namely the AKC. As long as these dogs are allowed to be registered they can run hunt tests. And there is nothing MARC can do about that. What we can do is to continue to promote amatuer handlers and youth handlers. That is the future of our sport and that's where our focus is.

Bob Swift
Master Amatuer Retriever Club


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Good Dogs said:


> It's unfortunate that many folks miss the intended message from the newsletter photo and the accompanying article. It's about the handler, not the dog. The ire about "silvers" should be directed to the organization that can actually affect some change, namely the AKC. As long as these dogs are allowed to be registered they can run hunt tests. And there is nothing MARC can do about that. What we can do is to continue to promote amatuer handlers and youth handlers. That is the future of our sport and that's where our focus is.
> 
> Bob Swift
> Master Amatuer Retriever Club


They sure can run, that is not up to any HT or FT club or committee or judge to not let any AKC registered dog run, based solely on how it looks. What you can do is not PROMOTE the silvers. That's what we're saying on your Facebook page as well, and if you haven't noticed yet, most comments are against the silver photo. It is sending the wrong message to those who care about the dilutes infiltrating. That's the objection. Plenty of junior handlers out there to have used photos of, didn't have to be a silver. I hope you understand where we are coming from and why.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Rainmaker said:


> They sure can run, that is not up to any HT or FT club or committee or judge to not let any AKC registered dog run, based solely on how it looks. What you can do is not PROMOTE the silvers. That's what we're saying on your Facebook page as well, and if you haven't noticed yet, most comments are against the silver photo. It is sending the wrong message to those who care about the dilutes infiltrating. That's the objection. Plenty of junior handlers out there to have used photos of, didn't have to be a silver. I hope you understand where we are coming from and why.


I get it. My point is that the photo was not intended and should not be considered by anybody as a promotion for "silver" labs. We used a shot we had, one that captured a dedicated young lady pursuing the game. No endorsement of the dog's origin and no slight to legitimate breeders was intended or should be taken.


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Good Dogs said:


> It's unfortunate that many folks miss the intended message from the newsletter photo and the accompanying article. It's about the handler, not the dog. The ire about "silvers" should be directed to the organization that can actually affect some change, namely the AKC. As long as these dogs are allowed to be registered they can run hunt tests. And there is nothing MARC can do about that. What we can do is to continue to promote amatuer handlers and youth handlers. That is the future of our sport and that's where our focus is.
> 
> Bob Swift
> Master Amatuer Retriever Club


No worries there, MARC’s message was clearly delivered. 

Intent is irrelevant.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Good Dogs said:


> I get it. My point is that the photo was not intended and should not be considered by anybody as a promotion for "silver" labs. We used a shot we had, one that captured a dedicated young lady pursuing the game. No endorsement of the dog's origin and no slight to legitimate breeders was intended or should be taken.


I really don't think you do get it. I marshalled a JH, a MH and an Amateur this summer. Of the three, only the MH required me to verify the handler for each dog each series on a sheet on my clipboard and have the judges sign it after the test. Because of a new Master Amateur Club requirement. I don't run the Master National. I doubt I'll ever run the Master Amateur National. I support those who do and I defend HT against the naysayers who think HT dogs are less worthy of whatever. Two of my dogs finished their MH this summer. I've produced multiple MH and other HT titles and have introduced multiple puppy buyers to HT. Your article in the newsletter is about gathering info on who is running HT, etc, and the reduction of entries in JH now compared to previous, while we have an explosion in MH entries, etc etc etc. I do a multitude of health clearances on my dogs, including the dilute test to make sure that isn't sneaking in. Because I give a damn about my breed and the games we play. Maybe it seems like nothing to some people. So what, a silver dog's photo is featured in the newsletter of the Master Amateur Retriever Club. I assure you, there are plenty like me taking exception to it and WE ARE the volunteer workers and the entries and the breeders trying to preserve the breed. Is silver going to ruin the breed? Nope. We will make sure there are enough pure Labs in the gene pool regardless of what others do. But we don't need a slap in the face by one of our own organizations. Opening a newsletter with a silver Lab in the front page photo big at the top was just that.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Great post Kim! x2


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Rainmaker said:


> I really don't think you do get it. I marshalled a JH, a MH and an Amateur this summer. Of the three, only the MH required me to verify the handler for each dog each series on a sheet on my clipboard and have the judges sign it after the test. Because of a new Master Amateur Club requirement. I don't run the Master National. I doubt I'll ever run the Master Amateur National. I support those who do and I defend HT against the naysayers who think HT dogs are less worthy of whatever. Two of my dogs finished their MH this summer. I've produced multiple MH and other HT titles and have introduced multiple puppy buyers to HT. Your article in the newsletter is about gathering info on who is running HT, etc, and the reduction of entries in JH now compared to previous, while we have an explosion in MH entries, etc etc etc. I do a multitude of health clearances on my dogs, including the dilute test to make sure that isn't sneaking in. Because I give a damn about my breed and the games we play. Maybe it seems like nothing to some people. So what, a silver dog's photo is featured in the newsletter of the Master Amateur Retriever Club. I assure you, there are plenty like me taking exception to it and WE ARE the volunteer workers and the entries and the breeders trying to preserve the breed. Is silver going to ruin the breed? Nope. We will make sure there are enough pure Labs in the gene pool regardless of what others do. But we don't need a slap in the face by one of our own organizations. Opening a newsletter with a silver Lab in the front page photo big at the top was just that.



Well said, I couldn't possibly agree more.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

great post Kim!! MARC really does not get it....


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> My point is that the photo was not intended and should not be considered by anybody as a promotion for "silver" labs. *We used a shot we had, *one that captured a dedicated young lady pursuing the game. No endorsement of the dog's origin and no slight to legitimate breeders was intended or should be taken.


Would you have chosen a shot of an obvious mixed breed dog over a purebred just to showcase a young handler? I doubt it. Someone used very poor judgment, at the least, and insulted a lot of purebred owners competing their dogs, especially in a new venue.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Bridget Bodine said:


> great post Kim!! MARC really does not get it....


No- I think getting it is not the point-they dont CARE


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> I really don't think you do get it. I marshalled a JH, a MH and an Amateur this summer. Of the three, only the MH required me to verify the handler for each dog each series on a sheet on my clipboard and have the judges sign it after the test. Because of a new Master Amateur Club requirement. I don't run the Master National. I doubt I'll ever run the Master Amateur National. I support those who do and I defend HT against the naysayers who think HT dogs are less worthy of whatever. Two of my dogs finished their MH this summer. I've produced multiple MH and other HT titles and have introduced multiple puppy buyers to HT. Your article in the newsletter is about gathering info on who is running HT, etc, and the reduction of entries in JH now compared to previous, while we have an explosion in MH entries, etc etc etc. I do a multitude of health clearances on my dogs, including the dilute test to make sure that isn't sneaking in. Because I give a damn about my breed and the games we play. Maybe it seems like nothing to some people. So what, a silver dog's photo is featured in the newsletter of the Master Amateur Retriever Club. I assure you, there are plenty like me taking exception to it and WE ARE the volunteer workers and the entries and the breeders trying to preserve the breed. Is silver going to ruin the breed? Nope. We will make sure there are enough pure Labs in the gene pool regardless of what others do. But we don't need a slap in the face by one of our own organizations. Opening a newsletter with a silver Lab in the front page photo big at the top was just that.



Spot on ^^^^^ in my .02 cents.:2c:

Follow the $$$$..............that's what it's all about. They're banking on most folks not caring about this in order to make more $$$.


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