# What if I get an MH on my dog in two AKC venues?



## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Let's say my boykin gets a MH in AKC retriever hunt tests and AKC spaniel hunt tests. Would there be a distinction added to the title to signify that the dog has 2 MH's???

Hmmmmmm....


Angie


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

is it not two separate titles? MH for the spaniel MHR for the retriever?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I dont know,,But I think Gooser would call Ya a "Show Off!:razz:

And You would definatly earn the Complimentry "YOU SUCK" award!!


Goosie


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Angie, do you really own a Boykin now or speculating?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

frontier said:


> Angie, do you really own a Boykin now or speculating?


I'm looking to own one and was speculating on the multiple titles. To AKC a MH is a MH but that doesn't seem right? Especially if you acquired the titles in spaniel tests and retriever tests.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> is it not two separate titles? MH for the spaniel MHR for the retriever?


I don't think so but I don't know. 

Angie


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

MHR is a NAHRA title. Can you run a Boykin in both?

Tom


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

twall said:


> MHR is a NAHRA title. Can you run a Boykin in both?
> 
> Tom


Yup,,, we had some at our hunt test in December.

Angie


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Took me awhile....but from AKC this is for the pointing breeds , I assume spaniels would be the same

Doug Ljungren, AKC Staff, participated in this portion of the meeting via video conference.​*German Shorthaired Pointers, German Wirehaired Pointers, Vizslas and Weimaraners -– Eligibility for Retriever Hunting Tests.​*The Board reviewed a request made by the respective parent clubs to allow the German Shorthaired Pointer, German Wirehaired Pointer, Vizsla and Weimaraner to enter the Retriever Hunting Test. These breeds are currently eligible to participate in the Pointing Breed Hunting Test. These breeds were developed as all-around hunting dogs, hunting both upland birds and waterfowl. The inclusion in a second test will allow for a much more complete testing of their versatile hunting abilities. If approved, they will be the fifth, sixth, seventh and eight breeds to "cross-over" into a second hunting test program. Titles earned by these breeds in Retriever Hunting Tests will be designated with an "R" to differentiate the title from those earned in Pointing Breed Hunting Tests (example: JHR). This will be discussed further at the August meeting.​* 
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/board_minutes/0711.pdf
*


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Awesome!! Thanks Bridget.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I dont know,,But I think Gooser would call Ya a "Show Off!:razz:
> 
> And You would definatly earn the Complimentry "YOU SUCK" award!!
> 
> ...


LOL!!!! Happy New Year Gooser!

Angie


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## Elliott Labradors (May 19, 2009)

Hi Angie,

I'm not capable of answering many questions on this forum but since I am from the state with the Boykin as the state dog I can answer this one. It's actually already been answered, but to confirm, the MH would be awarded for the upland work and the MHR would be awarded for the retriever work.

The Boykin is a nice little dog and South Carolina has some very sincere Boykin breeders.

Hope this helps,

Wally
.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Elliott Labradors said:


> Hi Angie,
> 
> I'm not capable of answering many questions on this forum but since I am from the state with the Boykin as the state dog I can answer this one. It's actually already been answered, but to confirm, the MH would be awarded for the upland work and the MHR would be awarded for the retriever work.
> 
> ...


 Wally, South Carolina doesn't have the only sincere and reputable breeders... Of course, Angie already knows that...


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## podunkccrs (Nov 3, 2008)

I will let you know.....going to try to do it with a curly this year


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Angie,

Was your Boykin the only spaniel to run?

When I first got into NAHRA there was a guy who would bring out his FC Springers. His dogs would do the tests we set up, just not the same way our retrievers did. I'm not sure how they would be judged by AKC Retriever HT judges. The Springers tend to want to always use their nose on marks and blinds. They did great on the NAHRA trails!

Tom


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

twall said:


> Angie,
> 
> Was your Boykin the only spaniel to run?
> 
> ...


Tom, at our test there was a fella with 3 boykins entered. They did exactly as you describe. The one I have in training now has me a believer!! I got him right at 6 months and I taught him to mark with his eyes and not trail with his nose. His trainability and water attitude can match any retriever on the truck. Plus he can flat out mark. I'm serious. This particular fella is out of CH bitch and a dog that guides for a game farm. His structure and type is wonderful.

I told everyone that his breed was what I was going to get when I was an old lady and couldn't handle a big lab anymore, but that's so far down the road I can't wait that long...

p.s. We don't let Hank look in any mirrors or shiny surfaces we let him think he's a lab...

Hank, the duck dog....










Could you not kiss the cheeks right off of this guy?? I'm in Love!!! Don't tell Bernie the chessie.... LOL

Angie


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Could you not kiss the cheeks right off of this guy??


Nope





.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

:shock::shock:

Do theys flair their ears like that just before theys a gonna rip yer liver out??????


Gooser


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## rookie (Sep 22, 2003)

Yep stork lady gets my vote gitter er done! Always said when I grow up I wanted to be able to look stork lady in the EYE!
Rooker



Angie B said:


> Tom, at our test there was a fella with 3 boykins entered. They did exactly as you describe. The one I have in training now has me a believer!! I got him right at 6 months and I taught him to mark with his eyes and not trail with his nose. His trainability and water attitude can match any retriever on the truck. Plus he can flat out mark. I'm serious. This particular fella is out of CH bitch and a dog that guides for a game farm. His structure and type is wonderful.
> 
> I told everyone that his breed was what I was going to get when I was an old lady and couldn't handle a big lab anymore, but that's so far down the road I can't wait that long...
> 
> ...


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Angie,

I was always impressed with the Setters' and Pointers' ability I have seen. Their owners play a different game than we do. But, the dogs are good!

I had the chance one time to participate in the field demonstration for an AKC Sporting Group Judges Institute. Every breed except the Weim's were represented. Every dog was a CH and had either an advanced HT or FC/AFC. It was very neat to see ALL those breeds do what they were orginally developed for.

The light deadgrass bitch in my avatar was the chessie. After doing water marks Annie Clark had judges come over and put their hands on her and see that her skin was dry. They saw what a proper coat was and how it functioned.

Tom


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Jurrasic Boykin???

Dern!!!! Them Yeller eyes too!!!

I'm gonna have nightmares.


Gooser


:razz:


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Angie B said:


> Tom, at our test there was a fella with 3 boykins entered. They did exactly as you describe. The one I have in training now has me a believer!! I got him right at 6 months and I taught him to mark with his eyes and not trail with his nose. His trainability and water attitude can match any retriever on the truck. Plus he can flat out mark. I'm serious. This particular fella is out of CH bitch and a dog that guides for a game farm. His structure and type is wonderful.
> 
> I told everyone that his breed was what I was going to get when I was an old lady and couldn't handle a big lab anymore, but that's so far down the road I can't wait that long...
> 
> ...



That is a very nice looking Boykin! I've observed that spaniel enthusiasts actually prefer to see a dog that fades w/ the wind a little & uses his nose to make the retrieve. I even think it is probably the more effective strategy for retrieving on land but for water retrieving, the dog that trusts his eyes will be much more efficient.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Jurrasic Boykin???
> 
> Dern!!!! Them Yeller eyes too!!!
> 
> ...


Gooser it's called the "chessie stare". Takes a little getting used to but it's not long before you ignore it,,,, or laugh at it...

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Dave Flint said:


> That is a very nice looking Boykin! I've observed that spaniel enthusiasts actually prefer to see a dog that fades w/ the wind a little & uses his nose to make the retrieve. I even think it is probably the more effective strategy for retrieving on land but for water retrieving, the dog that trusts his eyes will be much more efficient.


No not really.. A dog trusting their nose on a retrieve in a test, in route to the bird will get them into trouble just like a retriever. Drag back, dropped birds, foot scent from earlier dogs working, etc will hinder the dog marking a bird and making a clean retrieve. That's in retriever tests.

I plan on helping the owner getting Hanks AKC master hunter and then the spaniel stuff will be a piece of cake.. I've seen a spaniel master test and,,, ahem... Hank when I'm done with him could do it with 1 eye closed with a head cold...

Angie


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Angie B said:


> No not really.. A dog trusting their nose on a retrieve in a test, in route to the bird will get them into trouble just like a retriever. Drag back, dropped birds, foot scent from earlier dogs working, etc will hinder the dog marking a bird and making a clean retrieve. That's in retriever tests.
> 
> I plan on helping the owner getting Hanks AKC master hunter and then the spaniel stuff will be a piece of cake.. I've seen a spaniel master test and,,, ahem... Hank when I'm done with him could do it with 1 eye closed with a head cold...
> 
> Angie


I agree but those elements aren't relevant in spaniel games or hunting ( drag back, etc.) where quite often a shot bird hits the ground & runs off. In those cases, a dog that runs straight to the fall but misses by just a few feet on the upwind side can give the cripple time to escape while a dog that fades a little has the best opportunity to trail it. That kind of performance is highly regarded in a field trial & the dog that has the opportunity to pull it off moves up in the scoring. 

Spaniel hunt tests are very elementary, at least the retrieving series but that has more to do w/ the "political" nature of having several "show breed" clubs (clumbers, Sussex, American cockers, etc.) having veto power over any attempt to make them more meaningful than it does with the actual abilities of the better breeds (Springers, English cockers, & Boykins) that have been bred for hunting.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Dave Flint said:


> I agree but those elements aren't relevant in spaniel games or hunting ( drag back, etc.) where quite often a shot bird hits the ground & runs off. In those cases, a dog that runs straight to the fall but misses by just a few feet on the upwind side can give the cripple time to escape while a dog that fades a little has the best opportunity to trail it. That kind of performance is highly regarded in a field trial & the dog that has the opportunity to pull it off moves up in the scoring


In spaniel trials it's a 15-40 yard mark. I think Hank will be able to handle that. If the bird is a cripple or is missed by the shooters, the gunners take themselves out of the game and new guns continue the trial. No misses and no cripples in spaniel trials. The blinds are a joke..

Like I said,,, He'll do AKC hunt tests first and the spaniel tests later.

Angie


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Angie B said:


> In spaniel trials it's a 15-40 yard mark. I think Hank will be able to handle that. If the bird is a cripple or is missed by the shooters, the gunners take themselves out of the game and new guns continue the trial. No misses and no cripples in spaniel trials. The blinds are a joke..
> 
> 
> Angie


Not true, Spaniel gunners are invited to shoot trials based on their reputation and often come from out of state to gun a trial. They don't shoot 15 yard marks, 40 yds is about the minimum to provide the dog the opportunity to demonstrate retrieving ability but 60 is better. If a gunner misses 2 birds in a row, etiquette demands he excuse himself but because of the dynamic nature of the trials ( 2 dogs, handlers,judges & basket carriers in the field, the gallery walking along behind & a bird planter in front) often a gunner can't take the shot so he "passes" the bird off to his teammate which can provide 100+ yd retrieves. 

Because the gunners are trying to ride the birds out far enough to challenge the dogs, some are crippled. Spaniels are sent on pretty much any bird that goes down & the performance is judged subjectively. If you've got a good dog, you relish those opportunities to move up in the scoring. 

Blinds are a joke, probably less than 30 percent of trial dogs can even be said to handle (my unscientific estimate). Many trainers have the "bird dog" philosophy that the control necessary to run effective blinds will inhibit the dogs hunting style. Only hunt tests evaluate that skill in spaniels & the Master test requirements are embarrassingly easy for reasons I mentioned earlier.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Dave Flint said:


> *Not true, Spaniel gunners are invited to shoot trials based on their reputation and often come from out of state to gun a trial. They don't shoot 15 yard marks, 40 yds is about the minimum to provide the dog the opportunity to demonstrate retrieving ability but 60 is better. If a gunner misses 2 birds in a row, etiquette demands he excuse himself but because of the dynamic nature of the trials ( 2 dogs, handlers,judges & basket carriers in the field, the gallery walking along behind & a bird planter in front) often a gunner can't take the shot so he "passes" the bird off to his teammate which can provide 100+ yd retrieves.
> 
> Because the gunners are trying to ride the birds out far enough to challenge the dogs, some are crippled. Spaniels are sent on pretty much any bird that goes down & the performance is judged subjectively. If you've got a good dog, you relish those opportunities to move up in the scoring. *
> 
> Blinds are a joke, probably less than 30 percent of trial dogs can even be said to handle (my unscientific estimate). Many trainers have the "bird dog" philosophy that the control necessary to run effective blinds will inhibit the dogs hunting style. Only hunt tests evaluate that skill in spaniels & the Master test requirements are embarrassingly easy for reasons I mentioned earlier.


Thanks for the correction. It's been a long, long time since I watched and helped at a springer trial. I knew being an official gun is rather prestigious and that gunners will take themselves out if they miss but the particulars I wasn't aware of...

Angie


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## weims4me (Jan 1, 2013)

I have a breed in that same situation. My weimaraner has her JH for pointing hunt tests and is almost finished with her JHR for retriever hunt tests. Hope this helps.


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## weims4me (Jan 1, 2013)

Angie B said:


> I don't think so but I don't know.
> 
> Angie


For weimaraners, AKC offers JH SH MH for pointing hunt tests and JHR SHR MHR for retriever hunt tests.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Angie B said:


> Could you not kiss the cheeks right off of this guy?? I'm in Love!!! Don't tell Bernie the chessie.... LOL
> 
> Angie


Angie, I'm sure Bernie wouldn't mind...there's Chessie in those Boykins.  Love 'em!


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Great thread thanks for posting all the info


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

weims4me said:


> For weimaraners, AKC offers JH SH MH for pointing hunt tests and JHR SHR MHR for retriever hunt tests.


Thank you Weims4me.. Much appreciated.

Angie


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

Outstanding. I'm getting a German Shepard in Feb and would love to run some hunt tests (retrievers) with her!


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

German shepherd or German shorthair?

MG


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## Esylivin (May 5, 2008)

The Boykin Spaniel was first recognized by AKC in 2009? and was placed in the Spaniel category thus allowed to run only spaniel (upland) hunt tests. The title for a Master Hunter was "MH" as a suffix. In December 2011 AKC recognized the Boykin as a versatile gun dog thus allowing them to compete in Retriever Hunt Tests alongside labs, chessies, goldens, flat coats, curly coats, etc. To differentiate the two titles AKC designated "MHR" for Master Hunter Retriever again as a suffix. I think NARHA also has a “MHR” title but is a prefix to the dogs name? As of today there are 5 "MHR" Boykins don't know exactly how many "MH" Boykins but there are no combined titled Boykins to date. Three of the 5 MHR Boykins competed in this year's Master Nationals with one getting a pass. It can be confusing but a "MHR" for a Boykin is exactly the same as a "MH" for a Lab.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

With AKC opening up Retriever Hunting Tests to more breeds, will there be an opportunity for retrievers to run Spaniel/Flushing HT's in the future??

A great many ... maybe most ... retrievers are used as upland flushing dogs _exclusively_, as are used as waterfowlers _exclusively_

Prolly a dumb question I guess ... it WOULD mean more revenue for the AKC, wouldn't it. 

JS


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

That's a tough one to touch without bias - _*some*_ spaniels being used exclusively as










waterfowl dogs but not getting _*their*_ crack at retriever hunt tests.

MG


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

crackerd said:


> That's a tough one to touch without bias - _*some*_ spaniels being used exclusively as
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HeHe Crackered said Crack.


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## Tim McGarry (Jun 22, 2010)

Ang, 

Mr Montler would tickled to know that you have a Spaniel on your truck, until he found out it was a Boyk! 

Hope the holidays were great and that all is well in TX. See you when summer gets here.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Angie I love my little girl, she is 1 of the 5 MHR. I would love to get a MH flushing title but we have very few test in our area. I always believed its easier to start out training for retriever work first then train for upland after they get the retriever titles.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Tim McGarry said:


> Ang,
> 
> Mr Montler would tickled to know that you have a Spaniel on your truck, until he found out it was a Boyk!
> 
> Hope the holidays were great and that all is well in TX. See you when summer gets here.


Hahaha!!! If Mr. Montler had known about Boykins 15 years ago chances are he would have never owned a lab... 

See you in the spring Tim!!!

Angie


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

kimsmith said:


> Angie I love my little girl, she is 1 of the 5 MHR. I would love to get a MH flushing title but we have very few test in our area. I always believed its easier to start out training for retriever work first then train for upland after they get the retriever titles.


Kim I dont wanna do any upland till later on....not till right before the 2014 grand anyways. Dont want to encourage him putting his nose to the groud any more than absolutely necessary! Lol 
His nose has saved him but it also hurts. We dont encourage its use very often....


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

BlaineT said:


> Kim I dont wanna do any upland till later on....not till right before the 2014 grand anyways. Dont want to encourage him putting his nose to the groud any more than absolutely necessary! Lol
> His nose has saved him but it also hurts. We dont encourage its use very often....


That's been my experience. They'll be a spaniel at the drop of a hat,,, not so good for retriever games. Head up and run to the bird!!!

Angie


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

Angie B said:


> That's been my experience. They'll be a spaniel at the drop of a hat,,, not so good for retriever games. Head up and run to the bird!!!
> 
> Angie


mine is (MOST DAYS) a GREAT marking dog. FT length, big triples & quads. Has great vision and when he focuses i dont worry about marks. But......the moment he gets a bit unsure of himself, the head goes down and he becomes a real pain in the azz. His handling on marks when it has to occur is terrible, and I feel its mainly because he THINKS/KNOWS he can dig it out with his nose. His only failed test came when he got too far wide of the 2nd mark of a triple and smelled where the blind had been planted between the 2 guns and he blew me off when i tried to handle him back to the mark. surprisingly enough he handles well after throwing a poison bird and "no'ing" him off the bird. He's still real young though so hopefully his attitude will continue to get better. 
also we've had to really work on long land blinds through strips of cover and parallel cover, across ditches, anywhere the spaniel may want to come out. He's improved greatly though with LOTS of these blinds.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Yeah, gotta make sure when they put their nose down,










they're putting it down with another of their operating parts.










Funny quirk on planted birds too - they "know" too much for their own good as flushers. On grouse or pheasant, it's Katie bar the Boykin for putting them up with a bang...

MG


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

BlaineT said:


> mine is (MOST DAYS) a GREAT marking dog. FT length, big triples & quads. Has great vision and when he focuses i dont worry about marks. But......the moment he gets a bit unsure of himself, the head goes down and he becomes a real pain in the azz. His handling on marks when it has to occur is terrible, and I feel its mainly because he THINKS/KNOWS he can dig it out with his nose. His only failed test came when he got too far wide of the 2nd mark of a triple and smelled where the blind had been planted between the 2 guns and he blew me off when i tried to handle him back to the mark. surprisingly enough he handles well after throwing a poison bird and "no'ing" him off the bird. He's still real young though so hopefully his attitude will continue to get better.
> also we've had to really work on long land blinds through strips of cover and parallel cover, across ditches, anywhere the spaniel may want to come out. He's improved greatly though with LOTS of these blinds.


Practice, Practice, Practice and a high standard. It can be a lot of work..

Angie


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

crackerd said:


> German shepherd or German shorthair?


Shepard. As in Rin Tin Tin.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

TxFig said:


> Outstanding. I'm getting a German Shepard in Feb and would love to run some hunt tests (retrievers) with her!





crackerd said:


> German shepherd or German shorthair?
> 
> MG





TxFig said:


> Shepard. As in Rin Tin Tin.


You have your work cut out for you.  You will first have to get AKC to approve the breed to run in Retriever Hunting Tests, which might take a while for that one. They seem to dominate dock diving though these days from what I have seen.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

I was thinking "test dog" and an honorary ribbon for doing a good job. LOL


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

> You have your work cut out for you.


Fellow spinoniophile, have to believe Mr. Barnes guilty of tongue in chaw humour. Though with Airedales running "spaniel" tests the last few years (albeit to try and put some interest in a flagging program), anything's possible with AKC.

MG


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

TxFig said:


> I was thinking "test dog" and an honorary ribbon for doing a good job. LOL


Since the AKC has gotten so money hungry and has instituted all these testing programs that reward any dog with a pulse, I doubt you'd have much trouble getting them to approve GSDs to run retriever hunt tests.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

JS said:


> With AKC opening up Retriever Hunting Tests to more breeds, will there be an opportunity for retrievers to run Spaniel/Flushing HT's in the future??
> 
> A great many ... maybe most ... retrievers are used as upland flushing dogs _exclusively_, as are used as waterfowlers _exclusively_
> 
> ...


About a year & a half ago I attended a Spaniel Hunt test Judges Seminar where the field rep disclosed that they were working on opening up the Spaniel hunt tests to retrievers. 

The Spaniel hunt test program struggles to attract enough participants in many parts of the country for a variety of reasons so I was in favor of this move not just in order to help the clubs putting on these events make money but because I thought that the retriever owners would bring some much needed “polish” to the water blind test which is laughable as it’s currently judged.

Many Spaniel enthusiasts however, have expressed concerns that the influence of retriever handlers would tend to encourage just the sort of ideology that’s been expressed in this thread, i.e. that the use of nose is to be subdued in favor of the use of eyes. 

It is abhorrent to most spaniel aficionados to discourage the dog from using his most effective attribute.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Dave Flint said:


> About a year & a half ago I attended a Spaniel Hunt test Judges Seminar where the field rep disclosed that they were working on opening up the Spaniel hunt tests to retrievers.
> 
> The Spaniel hunt test program struggles to attract enough participants in many parts of the country for a variety of reasons so I was in favor of this move not just in order to help the clubs putting on these events make money but because I thought that the retriever owners would bring some much needed “polish” to the water blind test which is laughable as it’s currently judged.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight, Dave.


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## TxFig (Apr 13, 2004)

crackerd said:


> Fellow spinoniophile, have to believe Mr. Barnes guilty of tongue in chaw humour. Though with Airedales running "spaniel" tests the last few years (albeit to try and put some interest in a flagging program), anything's possible with AKC.



Mostly, yes - it was tongue in cheek.


But... I have LONG believed that all events should be open to ALL breeds. I would never suggest that an event should ever be changed to suit a different breed - but if xyzzy breed can do the work required for 12345 event, then by all means, they should be awarded the opportunity to do so.


Now with that said, I don't care enough to actually do the volumes of work that would be required to push a rule change. My level of interest is best described as "mild amusement".


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

kimsmith said:


> Angie I love my little girl, she is 1 of the 5 MHR. I would love to get a MH flushing title but we have very few test in our area. I always believed its easier to start out training for retriever work first then train for upland after they get the retriever titles.



I don’t disagree that upland training can conflict w/ non-slip retriever work, but it works the other way too. If you don't get a pup hunting early, learning how his nose works & how scent travels, he will not achieve his maximum potential as an upland dog. That being said, if your goal is only to acquire MH titles in both venues, I agree w/ doing the retriever training first. Not all dogs have the innate potential to earn a Master retrieving title while most Boykins at least, probably do have enough natural ability to pass a Master Spaniel test. Therefore, even if his upland hunting ability is retarded to some degree by a late start & early control training, he can probably still get the ribbon. 

Personally, I feel like there is such a thing as "good enough" for a hunting retriever. Even if I need a few more whistles than I'd like, I can live w/ it as long as he can deliver all the birds I kill. On the other hand, I don't think you can ever have a good enough upland dog. Every dog will miss some birds. Pheasants make a living outsmarting coyotes & hawks every day of their lives. I want to give my dog every opportunity to cultivate his innate abilities to find them. It just depends on your priorities.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Dave Flint said:


> About a year & a half ago I attended a Spaniel Hunt test Judges Seminar where the field rep disclosed that they were working on opening up the Spaniel hunt tests to retrievers.
> 
> The Spaniel hunt test program struggles to attract enough participants in many parts of the country for a variety of reasons so I was in favor of this move not just in order to help the clubs putting on these events make money but because I thought that the retriever owners would bring some much needed “polish” to the water blind test which is laughable as it’s currently judged.
> 
> ...


Spaniel aficionados don't like force fetch either and their land blinds suck at best. I can only imagine the water blinds?? I've seen the water marks,,, *cough*.

Also they won't or can't mark past 40 yards. In their own venue they rock... If they ramp up to the retriever venue they will labor and have a long way to go. I'm not saying they can't do it. They can but it will be an uphill battle.

Angie


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Dave Flint said:


> About a year & a half ago I attended a Spaniel Hunt test Judges Seminar where the field rep disclosed that they were working on opening up the Spaniel hunt tests to retrievers.


Dave, remember _*who*_ was working on the AKC to open the tests up to retrievers? - the flattie and especially the IWS folks as I recall. 



> The Spaniel hunt test program struggles to attract enough participants in many parts of the country for a variety of reasons so I was in favor of this move not just in order to help the clubs putting on these events make money but because I thought that the retriever owners would bring some much needed “polish” to the water blind test which is laughable as it’s currently judged.


Umm, those two breeds would certainly make it different than the "operatic" back-back-back-back-back continuous refrain when spaniel testers are trying to get their dog across a pond.

Funniest moment for me was when my dog was sent on a water blind and it had been planted directly in front of a goose nest on an island - and the gander came out to guard as the dog approached shore. The AKC rep (who had dropped by the test for a second or two in lieu of his real destination, a nearby retriever FT [and who shall remain nameless, bless his good ol' boy heart]) all but burnt rubber to get to the judges and demand they scrap the test. Hell, they didn't know what scrap meant - and besides, as I told Mr. X, the rep, mine was the only dog in the test to make it to last series. Not to mention she knew pretty well what to do with geese - 










- and how to run a retriever blind without the operatic trilling ("back-back-back-back-back" for 45 yards - or about three minutes if swimming if the dog ballet'd (spin-spin-spin) its way to the blind).



Angie B said:


> Spaniel aficionados don't like force fetch either and their land blinds suck at best. I can only imagine the water blinds?? I've seen the water marks,,, *cough*.


Yes, and at the same test as above, one of the participants (who I believe also was judging the next day), moaned "If they (AKC) put any more water in our tests, they might as well be telling us to run retrievers instead of spaniels." All for a single marked retrieve at every level and for a water blind only at master.

By the way, Angie, Montler's was a great place to run a test - think it was the only MH I ever failed when three cockbirds got up at once well behind the guns (and dog of course) and they blasted away anyhow without dropping any of them, which blew my poor little "non-hunting bred" (in this country) spaniel's mind. But the scenery (and the gracious hosting) were fantastic.

MG


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

Angie B said:


> Spaniel aficionados don't like force fetch either and their land blinds suck at best. I can only imagine the water blinds?? I've seen the water marks,,, *cough*.
> 
> Also they won't or can't mark past 40 yards. In their own venue they rock... If they ramp up to the retriever venue they will labor and have a long way to go. I'm not saying they can't do it. They can but it will be an uphill battle.
> 
> Angie


I run springer field trials and all my dogs are force fetched. They can also run decent land blinds. I only trained one of them to run water blinds that I ran in hunt tests. I know they would pass a retriever SH test. I will agree the water work at spaniel hunt tests is quite weak and painful to watch but I would bet some serious money that I could run a field bred springer and pass an MH retriever test faster than you could make an FC springer. There are are a pretty fair number of spaniel field trials in Texas, you would not have to travel far. I would even give you a puppy when I breed my female, you can have pick of the litter if the bet is substantial enough. If you don't like one of mine I will get you one out of any litter you can find. You seem to know alot about spaniels and their field trial gunning and what the dogs are capable of. I will bet you 10 grand. Youngest to accomplish their goal wins. Puppies can come from any litter in the country.


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

Am I reading this correctly? One MH pass vs an FC title? If so; ya think?!?!?!



jwdavis said:


> I run springer field trials and all my dogs are force fetched. They can also run decent land blinds. I only trained one of them to run water blinds that I ran in hunt tests. I know they would pass a retriever SH test. I will agree the water work at spaniel hunt tests is quite weak and painful to watch but I would bet some serious money that I could run a field bred springer and pass an MH retriever test faster than you could make an FC springer. There are are a pretty fair number of spaniel field trials in Texas, you would not have to travel far. I would even give you a puppy when I breed my female, you can have pick of the litter if the bet is substantial enough. If you don't like one of mine I will get you one out of any litter you can find. You seem to know alot about spaniels and their field trial gunning and what the dogs are capable of. I will bet you 10 grand. Youngest to accomplish their goal wins. Puppies can come from any litter in the country.


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

David Maddox said:


> Am I reading this correctly? One MH pass vs an FC title? If so; ya think?!?!?!


Sure. Its easy. To get an FC you only need two wins. Pen raised chicken finding, no crippled birds, no marks over forty yards, do two water singles for your water test. Ask Angie its a piece of cake. I would have to take an inferior breed and teach it to do MH retriever work. Sounds like I get the short end of the stick. Probably be easier to win the Kentucky derby with a shetland pony than take a non marking, non swimming springer to an MH retriever test.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

jwdavis said:


> Sure. Its easy. To get an FC you only need two wins. Pen raised chicken finding, no crippled birds, no marks over forty yards, do two water singles for your water test. Ask Angie its a piece of cake. I would have to take an inferior breed and teach it to do MH retriever work. Sounds like I get the short end of the stick. Probably be easier to win the Kentucky derby with a shetland pony than take a non marking, non swimming springer to an MH retriever test.


I can see that you were offended by Angie's remark, but your comparing what it takes to get an FC versus an MH seems a bit off. Regardless of how hard or easy Spaniel work is compared to retriever test, the fact of the matter is that to get an FC you have to win against stiff competition. To receive an MH all you have to do is meet the standard, that is far easier than winning a trial. I think a better bet would be to see if Angie could MH a retriever in the Spaniel game faster than you could MH a Spaniel in the retriever game.

BTW, I used to train with Jim McCreedy a guy who as FC'd a lot of Springer Spanials over the years. His dogs ran very good land and water blinds and were spectacular to watch in the field. I would hunt over one of those dogs in a hot second.

John


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

John Robinson said:


> I can see that you were offended by Angie's remark, but your comparing what it takes to get an FC versus an MH seems a bit off. Regardless of how hard or easy Spaniel work is compared to retriever test, the fact of the matter is that to get an FC you have to win against stiff competition. To receive an MH all you have to do is meet the standard, that is far easier than winning a trial. I think a better bet would be to see if Angie could MH a retriever in the Spaniel game faster than you could MH a Spaniel in the retriever game.
> 
> BTW, I used to train with Jim McCreedy a guy who as FC'd a lot of Springer Spanials over the years. His dogs ran very good land and water blinds and were spectacular to watch in the field. I would hunt over one of those dogs in a hot second.
> 
> John


 Spaniel MH is way too easy to achieve. A comparable bet would be a retriever SH to a spaniel MH, and I still think the retriever SH is harder. The competition at a spaniel trial is stiff. I do think the actual training complexity of training a retriever trial dog is more difficult and the fields are generally bigger. A 40 dog springer all age stake is big, but I know retriever trials tend to draw much larger entries. I do think allowing retrievers into flushing dog hunt tests would be great for everyone involved. Numbers would get an instant boost . Spaniel people would be able to pick up some pointers on training blid retrieves and retriever people would benefit from the upland portion if pheasant hunting is their thing. The minor spaniel breeds would end up left in the dust but they are damn near a lost cause anyway.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

jwdavis said:


> Spaniel MH is way too easy to achieve. A comparable bet would be a retriever SH to a spaniel MH, and I still think the retriever SH is harder. The competition at a spaniel trial is stiff. I do think the actual training complexity of training a retriever trial dog is more difficult and the fields are generally bigger. A 40 dog springer all age stake is big, but I know retriever trials tend to draw much larger entries. I do think allowing retrievers into flushing dog hunt tests would be great for everyone involved. Numbers would get an instant boost . Spaniel people would be able to pick up some pointers on training blid retrieves and retriever people would benefit from the upland portion if pheasant hunting is their thing. The minor spaniel breeds would end up left in the dust but they are damn near a lost cause anyway.


I believe clubs are allowed to limit their entries in spaniel field trials. That's why the lower numbers.

Angie


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

Angie B said:


> I believe clubs are allowed to limit their entries in spaniel field trials. That's why the lower numbers.
> 
> Angie


No they aren't . You are speaking out your rectum once again. Unlike you I participate in these regularly. Go to ESSFT.com . The rulebook is there.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

jwdavis said:


> No they aren't . You are speaking out your rectum once again. Unlike you I participate in these regularly. Go to ESSFT.com . The rulebook is there.


Why all the animosity? I don't know Angie and I don't know you... She said she "believed" so maybe she was wrong... I "believe" I am right, but I could be wrong.


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

huntinman said:


> Why all the animosity? I don't know Angie and I don't know you... She said she "believed" so maybe she was wrong... I "believe" I am right, but I could be wrong.


No real anmosity. Her and I have been bantering back and forth on a couple of threads.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

jwdavis said:


> No real anmosity. Her and I have been bantering back and forth on a couple of threads.


Do you know her and this is playful bantering or are you just being a dick?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

The only thing hard about the spaniel FC for a retriever is that a lot of judges want to see a really hard flush, Springer style, with no hesitation on the scent...which really can make it hard for even the Boykins, who tend to have a bit softer flush, often preceded by a slight hesitation. Either way, my money is on Angie.


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

achiro said:


> Do you know her and this is playful bantering or are you just being a dick?


I do not know her personally. Do you normally go around calling people dicks? Stay classy .


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

Sharon Potter said:


> The only thing hard about the spaniel FC for a retriever is that a lot of judges want to see a really hard flush, Springer style, with no hesitation on the scent...which really can make it hard for even the Boykins, who tend to have a bit softer flush, often preceded by a slight hesitation. Either way, my money is on Angie.


 I think you could probably easily train a retriever on the mechanics required. You can steady a pointing lab just like a pointer, does that make them as good as a pointer at what a pointer was bred to do?


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

I use to train the Golden in my avatar with the Springer Club every weekend. Some of the folks there would jokingly say, " if you painted him white & docked his tail, he could win a trial". I had started him off as a puppy just like a springer, encouraging his nose & quartering a field for planted pigeons. He hunted pheasant & grouse every year until he was 9 & tore his ACL. 

In reality, although he was the best upland retriever I've seen, compared to a competitive Field Trial Springer, his pace was methodical & he just didn't have the stamina spaniels are known for. The other shortcoming I've noticed w/ retrievers in general is that they tend to trail running birds slower than a Springer. I can recall several wild birds that took us over a quarter mile before he produced them where my Springers can usually catch up to them quite a bit sooner.

Like most retrievers though, he was very intelligent & learned how to use the wind, running a textbook pattern appropriate for whatever the wind conditions & he found his birds from outrageous distances. There was never a question of when he made scent either, the hackles on his shoulders would raise & he drove like a missile into the bird. 

He would have been very underwhelmed running a Master Spaniel test.


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