# USA vs World



## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

I would like to see the best of the best. USA vs World. If this could get pulled off I bet there would be sponsors. It would be the equivalent to the Ryder Cup. It seems the USA is always being targeted to be defeated. OK any of you from across the pond willing?


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## ndk3819 (Mar 12, 2012)

Limiting entry to labs only, or is this going to be an all-out retriever contest?


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

heck make it an all retriever competition- have it every 4 years like the world cup for soccer in a different country every time - I guess it would depend on how many countries would be willing to participate.


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

They did that several years ago in England. USA team was led by Mike Lardy. Field Trial was "European Rules". Team USA finished 4th.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

Mixed judging group or all English?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Kyle B said:


> They did that several years ago in England. USA team was led by Mike Lardy. Field Trial was "European Rules". Team USA finished 4th.


Maybe we should host an American style FT here and invite a team from England to compete?


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## Scott Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

You could run it in different country's each year and run by their rules.


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## jecartag (Feb 25, 2011)

JustinS said:


> heck make it an all retriever competition- have it every 4 years like the world cup for soccer in a different country every time - I guess it would depend on how many countries would be willing to participate.


Thats a great idea. It would be cool if we could get a panel to form that consisted of a few members from each country to agree on a "standardized rulset" so that there was no advantage other than the "home court advantage" 

The World Cup in soccer, although played in different countries every four years, is played with the same rules. That would eliminate the whole "The English Dog won in England because we had to play by their rules" or the "American dog won in USA because we played by USA rules". I guess the tough part would be getting enough people from each country to makeup a panel, and the toughER part would be to get agreement on rules.

...just a thought....I am not familiar with the rules in other countries, but am just assuming things may be different. Please forgive my ignorance.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Kyle B said:


> They did that several years ago in England. USA team was led by Mike Lardy. Field Trial was "European Rules". Team USA finished 4th.


I remember talking to Martin Deeley about that. One USA dog yawned, made a slight noise and was immediately dismissed.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> I remember talking to Martin Deeley about that. One USA dog yawned, made a slight noise and was immediately dismissed.


It was probably bored.
...................
Over here ,and over there, It would take more than the G8 Summit to agree on the colour of sh*t ! never mind a set of rules for a competition between dogs.
....
However, Us Brits,always have the answer to that by way of 'Eyewipe'..Nobody requires a judge for that.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

It was actually a US/CAN team

http://martindeeley.com/americanretrieverteam.html

Correction: Canada has their own team.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

The Canadians probably helped them .


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

that is a pretty neat write up have they done it since?


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

I just forget what little country it was that won  











Eug


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> that is a pretty neat write up have they done it since?


Unfortunately not; the event continues but without N American participation. At the time there was a good discussion in RTF but I can't find it now. It was a long time ago and the forum has had several make-overs since then, so it's probably in the dust bin of history. Jeff Boston (Chatson Gundogs) saw it all and reported back to RTF, and also posted a bit in another forum HERE

I should stress that it wasn't a Field Trial, but what we call a Working Test; no shot birds at all, just dummy work. 

Frankly I don't think a Ryder Cup type of contest based on Field Trials will fly, the logistics and differences in procedures are too great. A format something like a US Hunt Test or UK Working Test similar to Sherborne Castle would be all right, but would need massive sponsorship to make the travelling costs worth while. 

Eug


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Col Blimp is spot on. We were fortunate enough to watch the 2004 event and spend time w/ team USA. FTs or HTs in Europe are a different game from what we do in the USA. Not better or worse, just different. So a "Ryder Cup" style competion would be unworkable. Rather it would be my rules v your rules depending on the venue.
Having said that our few days at the event are etched in memory as some very special "dog days." If the sponsorships could be found to cover the high costs for the competing teams it would be fun to have an event rotating across "the pond" but some baseline rules that are compatible across venues would have to be agreed upon.


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## Sharon van der Lee (May 25, 2004)

The retriever game is too different in each country to make it equitable. Ryder cup is the same game.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Maybe an SRS style event with series from each country. Then scored. It sure would be fun to watch.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Okay I've got it take the working test from over there and the 4 x 4 team medley from over here and combine them to make a couple day event, that way it would be be dummy work from both sides of the pond, and the rules are already made the sponsorships are already in place with the SRS but I am not sure about over there but I am sure that there are large companies that sponsor dog events over there that would be willing to participate. 

Talk about an event, people from Europe would have to get their dogs to our type of competition and North American dogs would have to be able to there competitions. It would be a pretty even playing field I think and no one could argue about rules. 


Just a thought


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## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

I definitely want to see this conversation continue into something actually happening. Another question is, how do you get this to lead to something actually credited? Will kennel clubs get together to agree on a prefix for the winner? The UK has "Int. FTCH"... I wonder what would work for giving credit to the dogs who placed/won?


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

The joint CanAm team was a North American effort to go to Britain and play by IGL rules using N.American trained dogs, a very courageous endeavour indeed. Curious that no European individual or group has felt the same spirit of adventure compel them to venture over here in Field Trials on either side of the 49th?

The rules are very different on both sides of the Atlantic, thus far only one side has shown nerve enough to brave the peculiarities of the others game. Eug, Polmaise, when are you coming?

It seems an almost impossible task to create a homogenized set of rules that could be readily agreed upon, so baring a major sponsor stepping up to create an independent venue with an approximation of a pan Atlantic set of rules, questions of supremacy of one training regimen or another will remain to be dealt with by the privateer with the greatest confidence.

As we used to say in a game at school.... Red rover, red rover, let xxxxx come over
and as the SAS would say.....who dares wins


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Blind ambition' look back a few posts, you will see I'v already started training for such a possibility


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Just on a side note: I'd find it relatively easy to train for US type Field Trials, all I need by way of extra equipment is a big field, a big waggly pond, and an e-collar. 

For folks in North American to train for UK Field Trials on driven shoots and walked up days in variable cover and terrain wouldn't be nearly so easy. Not I think impossible, but very hard and pretty expensive. If I want to take a dog along to a driven shoot and let him watch 350 birds shot all round him, I just drive two miles and it costs me nothing. Same with a walk up day where there will be Spaniels working in front of us. A tough call in the US and Canada.

However sponsorship is the big deal breaker IMO; a team of four competitors, a chef d'equipe and a bag man, eight dogs, dog passports and appropriate shots, flights, accommodation and ground travel isn't a cheap proposition, way beyond that of most individuals. 

Mr Voight competed at Sherborne Castle, if he sees this thread it would be nice to have his observations.

Eug


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

*Pics from the 2004 Intl Gun Dog Event*

































As I've not tried to post pics here's hoping this works.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Just on a side note: *I'd find it relatively easy to train for US type Field Trials, all I need by way of extra equipment is a big field, a big waggly pond, and an e-collar. *For folks in North American to train for UK Field Trials on driven shoots and walked up days in variable cover and terrain wouldn't be nearly so easy. Not I think impossible, but very hard and pretty expensive. If I want to take a dog along to a driven shoot and let him watch 350 birds shot all round him, I just drive two miles and it costs me nothing. Same with a walk up day where there will be Spaniels working in front of us. A tough call in the US and Canada.
> 
> However sponsorship is the big deal breaker IMO; a team of four competitors, a chef d'equipe and a bag man, eight dogs, dog passports and appropriate shots, flights, accommodation and ground travel isn't a cheap proposition, way beyond that of most individuals.
> 
> ...


Yes sir, that's all you need...


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*GD*,

Great pics!. Does Ms Cleveland play in a band? She appears to be wearing a trumpet round her neck.

*Duckquilizer* posted


> Yes sir, that's all you need...


So by way of equipment or facilities what else is there? Launchers? Tick. E-collar sequential programs? Tick. Assistants and bird boys,? Tick. 
Eug


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Bartona500 said:


> I definitely want to see this conversation continue into something actually happening. Another question is, how do you get this to lead to something actually credited? Will kennel clubs get together to agree on a prefix for the winner? The UK has "Int. FTCH"... I wonder what would work for giving credit to the dogs who placed/won?


Our UK Kennel Club do not give any credence/formal awards for 'working tests' which is what these events (a la the Home International at CLA Game Fair and the Skinners World Cup - formerly Sherbourne ) are categorised as. As they are only run on dummies, out of season. None of our working tests actually give the dogs any titles, even at Open level here.

Also, INT. FT. CH is a title used for dogs, throughout Europe, that have won trials/been made up to FTCH in more than one country. It is not just related to UK, I think. So, it could be Italy and Belgium? I might be wrong on that though?


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

blind ambition said:


> The joint CanAm team was a North American effort to go to Britain and play by IGL rules using N.American trained dogs, a very courageous endeavour indeed. Curious that no European individual or group has felt the same spirit of adventure compel them to venture over here in Field Trials on either side of the 49th?
> 
> The rules are very different on both sides of the Atlantic, thus far only one side has shown nerve enough to brave the peculiarities of the others game. Eug, Polmaise, when are you coming?
> 
> ...


For the Skinners World Cup Event (which was the former event your team came to at Sherbourne), this test is judged by four International judges, invited from the competing countries. It is judged on UK KC/FCI (European rules).

I think the main stumbling block for any of the UK folk to come over to USA and compete is the small matter of rabies! I think we would be able to get our dogs out of this country and come over, but bringing them home with us would be a whole new matter! Our quarantine rules are fairly strict, and I think it is still 6 months quarantine coming in from a rabies country? I guess we could leave the dogs behind and sell them to the highest bidder?!!!!.........


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I may be wrong but SRS titles dont show on AKC pedigrees either I am not sure I have never looked at UKC pedigree to know if they do or not.


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *GD*,
> 
> Great pics!. Does Ms Cleveland play in a band? She appears to be wearing a trumpet round her neck.
> 
> ...


It helps to have a dog that's even remotely talented enough to do the work. Natural talent is the easiest part. The trained abilities will be were you find the learning curve the greatest and that will have little to do with pup...  You will better served by having access to 8-10 big fields and all the technical water/ponds you can find. There never seems to be enough. The bugle is required to reach the dog that looks like a speck on your eye specktacle...


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> I think the main stumbling block for any of the UK folk to come over to USA and compete is the small matter of rabies! I think we would be able to get our dogs out of this country and come over, but bringing them home with us would be a whole new matter! Our quarantine rules are fairly strict, and I think it is still 6 months quarantine coming in from a rabies country? I guess we could leave the dogs behind and sell them to the highest bidder?!!!!.........


.
.

The rules have changed drastically regarding travelling with dogs to and from the UK & EU in the last few years. No more 6 months quarantine sort of stuff as I read it. 
Pet Passport

How to instructions for leaving and returning with your dogs 
"Pet Travel Scheme".
http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/travel/pets/
.
Info from the Crown on taking your dog overseas & returning.
https://www.gov.uk/take-pet-abroad/overview


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I may be wrong but SRS titles dont show on AKC pedigrees either I am not sure I have never looked at UKC pedigree to know if they do or not. 
****************************************
AKC does not recognize SRS, nor UKC. Also, non AKC titles are not supposed to be printed in the premium.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks Breck, I knew the rules had changed regarding EU, and the rabies blood test time had been shortened, but I hadn't realised that this could be applied to non-EU as well. If this is the case, then that's quite interesting. Although I guess still the cost of transporting the dogs across the Atlantic would be considerable for a 'mere working test'! LOL

Certainly opens things up a little though perhaps...


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Thanks Breck, I knew the rules had changed regarding EU, and the rabies blood test time had been shortened, but I hadn't realised that this could be applied to non-EU as well. If this is the case, then that's quite interesting. Although I guess still the cost of transporting the dogs across the Atlantic would be considerable for a 'mere working test'! LOL
> 
> Certainly opens things up a little though perhaps...


.
The UK/US combined venue whatever it might be won't happen anytime soon.
If you want to have fun with your dogs in the US, just register dog with AKC, find a "friend" with a NetJets account, do some dog work, beg a spot on his jet, fly on over and run 2 or 3 field trials.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

It's when Organisations or officialdom get involved that things get all complicated?..
When really The Dog's just wanna 'Run'.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *GD*,
> 
> Great pics!. Does Ms Cleveland play in a band? She appears to be wearing a trumpet round her neck.
> 
> [Eug


Cute. But, since you liked those pics here are few more. Sorry, but I don't have any of the all blonde Swedish team, or of the morning scrum of the Irish and Welsh teams after their night of "competing pints." (The boys were all laid out in various angles of repose while their labs were asleep on top of them.) Or of "old" Eli clearing the fences ("hurdles" I think you call them.) I did note that several of the EU handlers seemed to have severe colds or allergies as many of them kept a white handkerchef in their right hand. Those hankies came in handy when running their blinds and were waved about trying to get their dogs' attention. 
I also recall talking with the gentleman who was responsible for setting the courses and tests.(I'm sorry I don't recall his name.) He confided in me - after we'd each downed a few single malts - that they had set up some tests they thought would be "particulary challenging for the Yanks." They were, but the US team showed well, placing 4th I believe. It was kind of like a top ranked football team playing a ranked rugby league. Object is the same - pick up the birds - but the game is very different. Lost of fun to watch, but a huge effort to get the team and dogs over and back. AKC and Purina were large sponsors but the handlers all had significant out of pocket expenses.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The coverage report was a very good read. Question what is "hunting in thick bracken" ? With all the pheasant hunting I do in the west I find it hard to believe that we do not have something as thick and unassailable very akin to a "Bracken" in the U.S. ? I know we have nettle-weed, lovely stuff covers most of the fields in SoCal. Seems like an SRS team would be better suited for this type of test, combo of do it all dogs. It's great that the FT dogs went over and did well, might've proved something. Still it'd be nice to have the other types of American HT retrievers represented, and it'd probably be pretty nice to have a GRHRCH type dog as a reserve player in a couple of series of those tests.


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> It's great that the FT dogs went over and did well, might've proved something. Still it'd be nice to have the other types of American HT retrievers represented, and it'd probably be pretty nice to have a GRHRCH type dog as a reserve player in a couple of series of those tests.


At least one of the dogs was a HT dog, Jack. He was a Master National Hall of Fame dog if I remember right. Also the dogs and handlers were picked that were calm and able to handle what they were going up against. So these weren't necessarily the firebreathing creepers, Brad with Maggie and Connie with Eli were the ones I remembered besides Jack.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Another article:

http://www.gundog-magazine.com/intevent.htm


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Bracken, pretty common the world over I thought. Marginally toxic and very invasive. it can grow to three / four feet high and is a real barrier to dogs; very easy to lose a sense of direction, and from their level obscures a lot of skyline. In wintertime it dies back and makes good cover for wild pheasants. In common with others I've hunted a runner for hundred of yards through this stuff.










Stinging nettles. Like bracken they die back in winter, but when fully ripe in summertime, a lot of dogs would rather go round them than through. Particularly common round dwellings and farms where the soil is rich in phosphorous from wood fire ashes. In damp woodlands they can be as tall as a man.










Eug


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

http://www.altiquinlabradors.com/irishfieldtrials/results_intl_rtr2004_uk.html#usascores

EE shows "Jack" as a MH.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

The "nettles" or whatever they were, were everywhere. Really bothered the US dogs. Maggie rolled on her back on the team walking hunt to get rid of the sting and was put for "unsteadiness." Connie carried Eli from one test to another to keep him out the stuff. Late on the last day, when we noticed the nettles did not seem to bother the EU dogs we were told that all had a protective salve on their pads. Funny they did not mention that at the start of the trial.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

Scott Parker said:


> You could run it in different country's each year and run by their rules.



No need to go overseas and incur all the expense, just run the HRC Grand! 

Lonnie Spann


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> In wintertime it dies back and makes good cover for wild pheasants. In common with others I've hunted a runner for hundred of yards through this stuff.
> 
> Eug


Eug, 

I was under the impression that it was "bad form" on that side of the pond for a dog to take running birds, or are you talking about a wounded bird?


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Dave asked


> are you talking about a wounded bird?


Yes. I should have made that clear. What we term "lining" is regarded as a fault, it's the dogs job to produce a shot for the Gun, not chase a chicken into the next parish. 

Many years ago in Scotland my Springer trailed and retrieved a pricked bird through what felt like miles of dead bracken. We eventually found it just about alive tucked deep into the fallen fronds and stalks, completely invisible. As best as I could make out from an Ordnance Survey map he'd run 450 metres. 

Eug


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Mr Voigt competed at Sherborne Castle, if he sees this thread it would be nice to have his observations.
> 
> Eug


Eug

Here are a few observations. I captained the Canadian Team. Most of our pre-event training was with the USA team in Florida/Georgia with Martin Deeley coaching us on what to expect. Lardy and I spent an inordinate amount of time planning, organizing, making travel arrangements, dealing with dog health requirements and fund-raising. This was the biggest challenge. 

The event at Sherborne Castle was extremely enjoyable, well-organized and an excellent experience. Surprisingly, the field work was on dummies and we learned that in the off-season most trained without birds! This was not like a driven shoot and thus not like a real UK field trial. I have only seen one trial over there and been on driven shoots in Scotland but this was quite different. I would equate this more to our hunt tests. Jumping fences was routinely required. Marks and blinds were hunt test distances. Often the marks were walk-up and often in a line of dogs. We had trained on this and found our dogs readily caught-on. Ditto for the fence jumping. 

It took us awhile to learn how they scored dogs and what they were looking for. We lost a lot of points during this phase. We allowed our dogs to go directly to the area of fall and hunt and we watched as other dogs mis-marked out of the area of fall and were quickly handled. They out-scored us!! On marks the judges didn't seem to like hunts. We found that strange. In comparison on blinds, we tried to line the birds and be sharp and crisp. The other dogs quartered out and hunted loosely on blinds and out-scored us. So on blinds they like to see hunts. When we knew where the blinds were we aced them. However, on some tests they simply said the dummy was in a certain broad area. Send your dog and hunt them up. We hadn't expected this but quickly learned the technique. The UK dogs would be sent, get near the area and told to hunt with a command like "Hi-Loss". We taught our dogs this almost over-night. Incidentally, my dog had extensive experience hunting and digging out cripples but these blinds were different as there was no scent trail or pricked birds- just a dummy somewhere but you didn`t know where.

Mike and I were both impressed with the UK dogs. They were stylish and good-looking and obedient. The Welsh team was a clear winner but several other teams were excellent. The Canadian team was all Field trial dogs with credentials including National wins for two. One excellent dog could not come at the last minute. One of our dogs had an off-week and struggled on several tests so our combined score was lower. However, if we took the average score of our other 3 dogs, we would have been second but not beat the Welsh. We felt that given our experience and the requirements that both American and Canadian teams of selected field trial or hunt test dogs could fare very well in future events. If it was simpler to attend and more economical we would do it again.

One final note: Water work in which our dogs excelled was of little consequence. The final series of water work was about equivalent to a junior hunt test whereas our dogs could do 450 yards water blinds and 30 minute Quads. So while we were impressed with the overseas labs, the jury is out on their water abilities.

All in all, this event was excellent and very enjoyable. Our thanks to the organizers and the competitors.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Lonnie Spann said:


> No need to go overseas and incur all the expense, just run the HRC Grand!
> 
> Lonnie Spann


That's funny. I don't care who you are.


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## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Good Dogs said:


> The "nettles" or whatever they were, were everywhere. Really bothered the US dogs. Maggie rolled on her back on the team walking hunt to get rid of the sting and was put for "unsteadiness." Connie carried Eli from one test to another to keep him out the stuff. Late on the last day, when we noticed the nettles did not seem to bother the EU dogs we were told that all had a protective salve on their pads. Funny they did not mention that at the start of the trial.


You sound a bit like you feel rather 'hard done by' in your posts.  I'm sorry you feel like that. I really doubt there was any vendetta against the USA team or its dogs!

Nettles really bother a lot of dogs, and where possible we would avoid throwing dummies into them. I do think yellow dogs are troubled often worse than the blacks. I think their pads are more sensitive. I've never heard of a salve that you can put on your dogs pads for it, and I have trialled and tested up and down the country. But, I do know some of the continentals (swedish etc) do use various things on their dogs pads occasionally to protect against ice etc, so maybe they tried that? I don't think anyone was keeping secret potions from you?!

It is unfortunate that these 'working tests' happen in summer when nettles and brambles can be a bit fierce. The World Cup event is no longer held at Sherbourne, but is at Highclere instead, and I don't remember seeing many nettles there..... so, maybe come back and have another go? 

WRT being put out for unsteadiness. I very much doubt that the judge would put a dog out just because of irritation of nettles. I was in a trial last October which included some very nasty cover, which affected my co-competitors dog's pads badly and he lay down and was trying to relieve the itching. Sensible judging prevailed. You can tell if a dog is unsteady....

I admire you hugely for coming over and having a go, and your dogs clearly performed well. I would expect them to though!! with the amount of highly technical training you do. Like Dennis says, these tests are a 'walk in the park' when compared to the great long distances your dogs do over land and water in your 'trials'. But they are what they are, working tests - and a great bit of fun too.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Thank you Dennis.

Eug


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

kennel maiden said:


> You sound a bit like you feel rather 'hard done by' in your posts.  I'm sorry you feel like that. I really doubt there was any vendetta against the USA team or its dogs!
> 
> I did not mean anything of the sort.
> We were spectators and "did not have a dog in that hunt" other than cheering on Team USA. My posts were meant to be nothing more than a lighthearted poke at the "home field advantage" the locals enjoyed. The hospitality and comaraderie were superb and the competition fair and freindly. Maggie rolled on her back and was out on that test. Eli made a slight whine on the water dbl and was out on that test. But that's the game and no complaints. As Dennis said the US and CAN teams adapted extraordinarily well to the conditions and test requirments. It was all great fun and great dog work.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

For those in the UK.......
I felt like writing a bit about how we do things here. Hopefully it may clear up some misconceptions and give you an idea about how we field trial. Hope it makes sense as sometimes I’m even confused. lol
There are major differences between our expectations and yours that is certain. We don’t have any tests at all on dummies as rules require ducks and or pheasant be used. As we use farm raised game we have no restrictions on running trials out of hunting seasons. We do not drive or flush birds at field trials but rather hand toss birds from fixed locations. The only time we don’t conduct actual field trials are the 2 or 3 months of winter and summer when most people concentrate on training, moving to south in winter and north in summer. Field Trials are always 3 day events that flow north or south from one week to the next with the seasons. As we place great emphases on dogs water ability we prefer not to trial in freezing water though it may occur. In order to reduce the risk of injury to our dogs, many of whom are worth more than a Range Rover, we do things different here. Judges will walk and inspect field for hidden dangers, we never climb up high walls, jump fences or barbed wire. We do not set tests were birds or dogs path will be near natural dangers like ground hog holes, thick sticker thorns, dangerous rocks etc. We try not set tests where it is clear dog will be out of our sight for more than a few seconds.
.
In the US & Canada, Marks are the Dogs Responsibility. Blinds are the handlers Responsibility. It is somewhat the reverse overseas as I understand it.
So basically we relinquish control to dog on the marks, dog yields control to us on the blinds.
.
Our rules require that each Mark, as it falls to ground, be visible to the Dog and his view of fall shall not be obscured. We value a dog with Memory. If dog can't count to 3 or 4 and remember where each bird fell he will end up a pet dog somewhere. Birds are presented to dog with dog sitting by Handler at heel. (most of the time). Each of ~80+ dogs sees and retrieves the exact same marks and blinds as the other dogs. That is, all dogs run from the same door mat, guns are in fixed positions designated by judges and toss birds to same spot for each dog. Normally, a dog is visible to the judges and handler at all times. Our marking tests are 3 or 4 birds shot one after the other (to save $ one live bird is shot, the rest are cold birds hand thrown, with a 12Ga shot). Essentially each dog must do a better job, eye wiping the poorer jobs in the judges eyes to survive and move on to next test. On our marking tests if a handler needs to blow the whistle to help dog he is often eliminated. (the exception being a quick crisp handle occasionally bests a long protracted hunt). All else being equal a dog stepping on a bird on first pass will defeat a dog requiring 2 passes or a handle. In our field trials marks are normally in the 100 yard to 400 yard range, the same for blinds both on Land & Water. Generally about 7 dogs can be run on a marking test within one hour. It is not unheard of for a water marking test to take 20 minutes of swimming for one dog to complete. The most difficult water retrieve occurring near the end of those 20 minutes when dogs memory of it has likely faded. With ~12 dogs typically surviving to the 4th series water marks, often with similar work prior, a dogs performance on the very last bird may determine if he wins or slips to award of merit.
.
For land & water Blinds judges identify the precise location of birds to every handler. Since blinds are often 300+ yards distant some folks have difficulty "seeing" the location. Binoculars hung around neck are the norm for running blinds, as are whistles that can be heard 400 yards away, in a stiff cross wind, while dog is swimming. Main reason no one here would use 401 Spaniel whistle.
On our Blinds, by rule, dog should not go out of sight of handler for but a moment. (there are minor exceptions). Essentially FT blinds are a demonstration of our control over dog and dogs willingness to relinquish his senses and accept our direction in the face of contradictory factors. Yes, I know you smell a bird over there but I want you to go here and I’m not telling you again! lol
On a blind imagine driving dog through a field or pond keeping him within width of a road for 300 yards while trying not to let dog stray off to either side if he happens to see or smell something inviting. A dog who complies with our direction to the bird WE want without too much zig-zag or handling along the way will normally be judged to have done a good job.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Well said Breck. I would add a normal trial starts with marks on land, then a blind or blinds on land, blind on water and lastly marks on the water for a fourth series. There is an honor somewhere too, usually the first series.

The Derby dogs are aged 2 years and under. They typically get 4 series with 2 marks in each series, 2 series on land and 2 on water. No blinds, no honor. If you handle on a mark elimination is required.

I think one of the best things about the trials are that all dogs run the same test.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Breck said:


> For those in the UK.......
> I felt like writing a bit about how we do things here. Hopefully it may clear up some misconceptions and give you an idea about how we field trial. Hope it makes sense as sometimes I’m even confused. lol
> There are major differences between our expectations and yours that is certain. We don’t have any tests at all on dummies as rules require ducks and or pheasant be used. As we use farm raised game we have no restrictions on running trials out of hunting seasons. We do not drive or flush birds at field trials but rather hand toss birds from fixed locations. The only time we don’t conduct actual field trials are the 2 or 3 months of winter and summer when most people concentrate on training, moving to south in winter and north in summer. Field Trials are always 3 day events that flow north or south from one week to the next with the seasons. As we place great emphases on dogs water ability we prefer not to trial in freezing water though it may occur. In order to reduce the risk of injury to our dogs, many of whom are worth more than a Range Rover, we do things different here. Judges will walk and inspect field for hidden dangers, we never climb up high walls, jump fences or barbed wire. We do not set tests were birds or dogs path will be near natural dangers like ground hog holes, thick sticker thorns, dangerous rocks etc. We try not set tests where it is clear dog will be out of our sight for more than a few seconds.
> .
> ...


What Breck didn't say was whenever possible we tend to use technical water for testing

On a given piece of technical water there are a finite number of "Big League Marks" . Over time these marks become school marks for those dogs that train there

Additionally as more of this technical water is built and used for testing, the water marks have become more and more contrived,and the emphasis placed on the line to it has overshadowed marking so much so that if one does not have ample access to technical water to train on this type of lining they have all most an insurmountable uphill battle ahead of them when being tested..

john


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

And Eug
In the maps sent were locations of best technical water in America. If you use your imagination placing dog, guns and bird falls in and around the properties you will see what we face.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> If you use your imagination placing dog, guns and bird falls in and around the properties you will see what we face.


Nothing to it. Can't see what your problem is!!

Eug


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

And given same marks and blinds for all dogs there are advantages and dissadvantages to running first, twenty first, or last. Early little to no bird or dog scent is present but possible bad paths haven't developed. Early sun may be in dogs eyes, later a key gun may be in shadows. Running early handler has not seen other dogs fall into judges traps were later handlers may make adjustments. Wind direction may switch. Bird your dog had great difficulty with will be easier for dogs with more favorable wind. There may be tall cover midway to bird that collects drag back scent. Dogs may stop short to hunt there ruining their run. Etc etc.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Some very good posts on this thread - having grown up & hunted SD in the 40's & 50's & participated in the corn field drives can imagine a driven shoot - we used to get 300 to 700 birds up with every change in cover hunting without dogs. 

We have Nettles here (use Weedmaster to control them) & call brackens, Ferns here, & have some, very thick like a sugar beet plant - perfect lab hunting cover.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Grading degree of difficulty from 0 to 10 - 10 being the most difficult.

How would you grade US and UK field competitions?


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

I find it fascinating how differently our field trials have evolved in what we expect & how we evaluate performance. Since I’ve never seen a British field trial, all of this is admittedly conjecture on my part but from what I understand, the British demand the highest degree of obedience & absolute composure “at the line”, even to a degree that seems absurd (tossed for yawning?). On the other hand, from an American perspective, the work in the field as described sounds quite unsophisticated (Handling on marks & hunting on blinds?) compared to an American trial.

I suppose some of the differences can be explained by the fact that American Labs are primarily used as waterfowl dogs and therefore we want to be able to direct a swimming dog straight to the bird. In the British hunting tradition, the birds are shot (often at great range) over land where they may hit the ground running so a handler that insisted on handling a dog could easily be giving the dog bad information.

The other major difference though I think is “cultural”. While the American sporting tradition includes all social levels with even many wealthy patrons having roots that were poor & rural, in Great Britain hunting has always been exclusive to the upper class. I think this may be why they expect their dogs to comport themselves in the most “gentlemanly” manner. 

There seems to be something in the American nature that appreciates a barely restrained wildness that is reflected in how we appreciate dog work. We want our pointers to run so big that a scout on horseback is required to help keep track of him, our spaniels are expected to accelerate into the flush often snapping at the bird in the air & our retrievers run straighter & farther than anywhere else but we’re willing to overlook a bit of unruly behavior at the line even though we are supposedly all evaluating hunting dogs.

Personally, I think that both perspectives have merit. Each game elevates specific traits; composure & nose in the British version & memory & drive in the American. I have always thought that the Hunt Test programs went astray when they modeled themselves as 2nd class field trials. I wish that they had more in common w/ the values of the British game. I think that's why "British Labs" are promoted in this country to fill the niche for which Hunt Tests missed the boat.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

"...... I have always thought that the Hunt Test programs went astray when they modeled themselves as 2nd class field trials. I wish that they had more in common w/ the values of the British game. I think that's why "British Labs" are promoted in this country to fill the niche for which Hunt Tests missed the boat."

I think this is one of the best statements I have seen for awhile.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Dave,

Just some brief comments on your last post .... 

it needs reiterating that the event Mr Voight took part in wasn't a Field Trial or anything like one, so the judges interpretation may or may not have represented their operations in a Trial. I'm not qualified to say just how judges in UK Trials give weight to handling or not, but you should bear in mind that the concept of a bird being a mark or not doesn't apply. If a bird comes to ground and the dog marks it, it's a mark and if it comes to ground without the dog seeing it it's a blind. In a US Trial the two are clearly distinguished, but in a UK Trial it's just a bird on the ground and you deal with it as you may. 

One other thing crosses my mind; no ground game in US Trials. You'd need to train for it and also for steadiness to a running hare or rabbit. I've seen a GSP Trial that looked like a good night at a greyhound stadium, very amusing for everyone except the handlers.

Your point about a bird hitting the ground and running is well made. On a "real" shoot as opposed to a Trial, If I see a bird hit in the air that's flying on towards cover I'll often send the dog straight away, but I've never seen that happen at a Trial. 

The "cultural" thing is often misinterpreted. Driven shooting is still not for the impecunious, but the associated dog work is open to Everyman. Trialling does have it's costs of course, but one of the most successful and well regarded Triallers in recent years is a lady living in a city area council house. Many folk use the cash from their picking up days (beaters and pickers get paid) to defray expenses generally and make a contribution to other doggy activities, which might be Trialling, Working Tests or scurries. The latter are probably worth an explanation in themselves.

Yes, American mores and perceptions are different to those over here; this is often summed up in the phrase "They're absolutely bloody barking mad you know".;-) It's almost a definition of another culture to say "Well I don't understand it, but it's wrong anyway, we'd never do it like that". 

Nose. Well it's of prime importance to me, and I selected Lab Jack as a puppy because his blood line was renowned for good schnozzles and he hasn't disappointed; to put it in "our" terms, he's as good as the best Springer I ever had! His sire was the winning Welsh dog at Sherborne which may or may not be a coincidence. It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> ...bear in mind that the concept of a bird being a mark or not doesn't apply. If a bird comes to ground and the dog marks it, it's a mark and if it comes to ground without the dog seeing it it's a blind. In a US Trial the two are clearly distinguished, but in a UK Trial it's just a bird on the ground and you deal with it as you may.


I really hadn’t thought of it that way. I think it would be a huge adjustment for Americans to accept the degree of subjectivity in a trial like that. As described in an earlier post, we strive to provide each dog the same test as far as possible & the judges draw diagrams of the path the dog takes to each bird which he can compare at the end of each series.



Colonel Blimp said:


> Nose. Well it's of prime importance to me, and I selected Lab Jack as a puppy because his blood ]line was renowned for good schnozzles and he hasn't disappointed; to put it in "our" terms, he's as good as the best Springer I ever had! His sire was the winning Welsh dog at Sherborne which may or may not be a coincidence. It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.


I agree & I understand what you mean by “our” terms. It isn’t common to hear an experienced Springer man claim that about a Labrador but I heard the exact sentiment a couple of weeks ago from a trainer whose opinions I respect about his own experience w/ imported Labs. 
In my own experience w/ my Labs vs my Springers, the Springers have been considerably more efficient at trailing & producing game.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.


Eug, what folk don't say is - and have to think Dave's aware of this, too - there are no runners in N. American retriever field trials so nose cannae be "put to the test in the same way the Brit version does." Every bird is either thrown dead or, in US trials, _*shot*_ dead as a flyer. Anything else - a flyaway on a miss or a pricked pheasant that flew too far before falling - gets a "no bird" from the judges. Meaning a "do-over."

But no, it's not a potential problem for the breed or breed_*s*_ plural not to have their nose tested in the same way as you lot - when we want to test our dogs' noses, we shoot hen pheasants as the fare in a field trial.

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> when we want to test our dogs' noses, we shoot hen pheasants as the fare in a field trial.
> 
> MG



Funny enough! Depending on the time of year?.A 'Field Fair' Is by far the hardest bird to identify?.Unless you are 'Field fair' _of course_ But then what of the Partridge? Must be the same for the dog?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7AMwdu_xKM

And like 'EUG' has said,Often the dog is sent for the cripple(on command) when in flight!,but even then the cripple wants to sit just tight!and hold them feathers Oh so tight.So the 'ONE' may require a little a help from 'God Almighty'?..Or Dear old Blighty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vETL1waaq34

And again like our learned Countryman' had reiterated 'It's all about getting the game. Our Job is getting the dog in the best place to find that game.
Ok!,So the dog shown is not mine! But it is Now,and it came here for issues with 'Hard mouth' on Partridge of all things!!..But even so. It's what 'I believe' ''We are all about''!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WMaztF2gaU


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

UKC-HRC Hunt Test Rule:

2. NOSE
A sharply tuned nose is obviously a desirable characteristic of a hunting retriever; however, it 
is a difficult attribute to specifically test. Judges should be on constant alert for this trait 
during all tests. Judges should be careful, however, and not be quick to mark down a lack of nose 
on a particular test as scenting conditions can
vary considerably from test to test.

AKC Hunt Test:

Section 2. The Judges shall score the dogs on (a)
their natural abilities including Marking (memory), Style,
Perseverance/courage*/hunting*, and (b) to relatively greater degrees in Senior and Master Hunting Tests
their Trainability as evidenced in steadiness, control,
response and delivery.

We expect them to use all of thier senses on marks. Eyes to get them to the area of the fall and thier nose to dig the bird out, once they get in tight and establish a hunt. On blinds, we only allow the use of our senses...

AKC FT Rule:

22. The Judges must judge the dogs for (a) their natural abilities including their memory, intelligence, attention, *nose*, courage, perseverance and style, and (b) their abilities acquired through training, including steadiness, control, response to direction, and delivery. Decisions to eliminate a dog from a stake as a result of faulty performance must be the consensus of the Judges.



The common theme throughout our venues would be all senses are of equal value...


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Duckquilizer said:


> The common theme throughout our venues would be all senses are of equal value...


"Taste" tested as an equal value too? If it's still nose that's drawing focus, Eug could accredit ol' Barney Rubble here for best practices at sand and gravel mining.

MG


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

crackerd said:


> "Taste" tested as an equal value too? If it's still nose that's drawing focus, Eug could accredit ol' Barney Rubble here for best practices at sand and gravel mining.
> 
> MG


That last taste test I witnessed drew an immediate failure...lol. Maybe I should have struck out 4 or 5 senses. I'll never forget the first one I saw, itwas' a young "water" poodle with a nice fro'...


My rule quotes where geared toward this:



Colonel Blimp said:


> Nose. Well it's of prime importance to me, and I selected Lab Jack as a puppy because his blood line was renowned for good schnozzles and he hasn't disappointed; to put it in "our" terms, he's as good as the best Springer I ever had! His sire was the winning Welsh dog at Sherborne which may or may not be a coincidence. It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

We can quote rules all we want the fact of it is in many venues Nose is considered last if at all. It can oftentimes be an extreme hindrance, to a testing retriever. Heck we set up test/trials/series that contradict the game finding ability (go straight, through and away from those nice pockets of scent, trust your eyes and memory, the nose is untrustworthy and plays tricks). Still Nose is tested just depends on the venue, NAHRA has 2 series pretty much devoted to it, a quarter to flush (hard to locate a well hid bird without nose) and the "Dreaded" trail (don't see how you can trail a bird without nose). Also the HRC upland which requires multiple finds and controlled-steady flushes of released birds. Of course these tests due to the nature of scent are the more subjective, thus often times controversial. They are the tests most players dread, probably having to do with the lack of handler input or control over events, it's all on the wind and the dog. If you were to throw such a subjective series into a US-FT, it would be pandemonium, the judges might as well carry their own rope  Hard if not impossible to ensure "the same test" It's very conceivable that the top dogs through no _fault_ of their own could go out with a gust of wind .


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree its not at the forefront... So what is the point of establishing a hunt in the area of the fall? To look for the bird till you find it or use the snoot and scent?


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*DQ* posted


> what is the point of establishing a hunt in the area of the fall? To look for the bird till you find it or use the snoot and scent?


I guess there is a bit of a disconnect between US Field Trials, UK Field Trials, and real life hunting. For me, as a non Trialler in either jurisdiction getting the bird to hand is the gold standard. Outcomes count most. 

However if the electrodes were applied and I had to choose between a strong marker with a poorish nose and a poorish marker with a strong nose, I'd take the latter. A runner in deep cover needs a dog that that can use his nose and his ears, his marking ability is secondary IMO. So I need to get him into the area of fall...... if it's in cover he has to hunt; if it's in the open it's an opticians job.

Eug


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

In my limited experience, a good marking dog also has a good nose. I think the good nose is part of pinpoint marking.

Dog gets to the area of the fall using its eyes, and then it goes right to the bird because of its nose.


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