# Dog will no retreive in cold water?



## sageandtun (Nov 18, 2013)

I have a 15 month old lab that has been hunting all season and has been doing great. today we hunted a large, half frozen pond with ice around the edges and he just flat out would not retrieve the ducks. He really did not want to get in the water. This is not lack of drive or training so, with all due respect, those are not the answers that I am looking for. I played with a dead duck with him for a while when we where done hunting both on dry land and throwing it in the water. He was as thrilled as ever to pick it up off of the ground but wanted nothing to do with it in the water. I was able to force him to it in the water but he certainly did not want to go. Any suggestions on what we might try to get through this? I live in montana so over half of our season is very cold. Thank you for any help!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I also live in Montana, where are you? You didn't mention a neoprene vest, do you use one? If not I highly recommend a good quality, tight fitting vest. Now most dogs will drive though anything, even cold water and ice to get a duck, so the vest is mostly a safety thing to fight off hypothermia, but making him more comfortable can't hurt. The ice could also freak him out just because this is different, I assume you were avoiding the iced over section of pond.

BTW, Welcome to the forum.

John


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## pcarpenter (Sep 4, 2013)

I have to second the using a vest. Although I had the opposite problem. Dog would jump in the cold water on the way to train or playing with the kids. I used it to ward off hypothermia


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## sageandtun (Nov 18, 2013)

Thanks guys, i did forget to mention that yes, he was wearing a vest. He is pretty lean little guy and no matter what I do I cannot get weight on him nor can the vet. I was concerned that the cold would be an issue and unfortunately, i was right. John, I am in the gallatin valley.

Thanks!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

sageandtun said:


> Thanks guys, i did forget to mention that yes, he was wearing a vest. He is pretty lean little guy and no matter what I do I cannot get weight on him nor can the vet. I was concerned that the cold would be an issue and unfortunately, i was right. John, I am in the gallatin valley.
> 
> Thanks!


In that case I wouldn't push it right now. If possible I'd take him upland hunting a lot. Even a game preserve if you can't get into a lot of birds otherwise. Get him jacked up on live birds, really jacked up. If the opportunity arises to have a pheasant land across a small arm of water see if he goes through the water without thinking about it. I had assumed, but now that I reread your post, didn't see you mention how much water work the pup received during summer. Hot weather is the time to work on water, so maybe hold off on duck hunting this season. The last thing you want is to push too hard and create a bad attitude around water.


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## BigKahuna13 (Mar 6, 2009)

Force Fetch??


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## DucksDogsDownriggers (Feb 21, 2013)

Thought, could the vest be causing some confusion/refusal???... The reason I bring that up is because my 19 mo old BLF had her first and only "no-go" the first time I had the vest on her for real work (not fun bumpers). I resent her and she took off real slow then turned around (popped), I sent her with a loud "back", no pressure, and that did it. I read her as being confused, not as a refusal. No issues since.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

BigKahuna13 said:


> Force Fetch??


Not at this point around icy cold water. Work on it in better conditions and one thing at a time.


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## BigKahuna13 (Mar 6, 2009)

Agreed. A good vest is the way to go at this point. Just curious if it had been done as a part of training.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Guys I'm gonna jump in here and give my thoughts.not an expert but this is something that I feel has become a huge problem.I have some thoughts on it but prefer to keep it to myself.But it is the main reason I have switched breeds for my personal gun dogs and have not looked back.As far as forcing...I really question why I should have to force a dog for something they should looove to do.Just my thoughts


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## txcountryboy1986 (Nov 19, 2013)

I have had a male that didnt like the cold water, but after force fetching him he was fine


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## Corey Capozzi (Jan 15, 2012)

My pup would do this too. I realized it was because he sat in the warm truck on the way to the hunt. I would only put him in the kennel in the bed after the hunt when he was all muddy. I started putting the pup in the kennel before every hunt and he would actually go in the cold water. Im a newb to gun dogs but this worked for me.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Force fetch is a good training tool for a lot of reasons. That said, I am hard pressed to think of a situation where I would force, an otherwise bidable, birdy dog, into cold water. Yes, I want a dog to retrieve in cold water. But, one that stops when the water gets cold I don't think I would, especially a young or old dog.

Just my feelings,

Tom


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

sageandtun said:


> I have a *15 month old lab that has been hunting all season and has been doing great*. today we hunted a large, half frozen pond with ice around the edges and he just flat out would not retrieve the ducks. He really did not want to get in the water. This is not lack of drive or training so, with all due respect, those are not the answers that I am looking for. I played with a dead duck with him for a while when we where done hunting both on dry land and throwing it in the water. He was as thrilled as ever to pick it up off of the ground but wanted nothing to do with it in the water. I was able to force him to it in the water but he certainly did not want to go. Any suggestions on what we might try to get through this? I live in montana so over half of our season is very cold. Thank you for any help!


There again....What happen to change his behavior? Something was done. Don't force it.


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## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

15 months is still a very very young dog....


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

jd6400 said:


> Guys I'm gonna jump in here and give my thoughts.not an expert but this is something that I feel has become a huge problem.I have some thoughts on it but prefer to keep it to myself.But it is the main reason I have switched breeds for my personal gun dogs and have not looked back.As far as forcing...I really question why I should have to force a dog for something they should looove to do.Just my thoughts


Exactly what have you switched to for your personal dog? Force fetch has less to do with force than you might think. That being said If the problem has only presented itself in really cold water and there appears to be no other mitigating factors then the problem is probably cold water. Some dogs get past it some don't.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Been at this way over 40 yrs Bruce,all my dogs and clients dogs get FF but not to get in the liquid after a bird that has been shot.That has to come from the heart of said animal.And it`s sad to say a lot of heart has been lost in todays lab.Don`t get me wrong,there are still a ton of labs out there with a lot of heart.Just not the percentages there was 50 years ago.

As far as personal dogs now....We have 6 chessies with more on the way!!!!!At least for now they havn`t gottn popular,and we all know what happens when a breed gets popular.Would you like a list? Jim


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Damn this place has gone to absolute hell. Bottom of page 2 and nobody has even gotten close. You say it isn't a drive or training problem and in fact, you are wrong. It is one or both and probably more a training issue than drive. Unless there is some sort of health issue(doubtful) that dog is just giving you the finger and has decided that he is more comfy staying dry. I do agree that now is not the time to fix it but that means biting the bullet and not putting the dog in the situation to refuse and get away with it again. Has the dog gone through force fetch? Force to pile? Water force?

All that said, here is the disclaimer: anytime you are hunting in really cold conditions you need to watch the dog for signs of hypothermia. Just because you can make them get in doesn't mean you should.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

achiro said:


> Damn this place has gone to absolute hell. Bottom of page 2 and nobody has even gotten close. You say it isn't a drive or training problem and in fact, you are wrong. It is one or both and probably more a training issue than drive. Unless there is some sort of health issue(doubtful) that dog is just giving you the finger and has decided that he is more comfy staying dry. I do agree that now is not the time to fix it but that means biting the bullet and not putting the dog in the situation to refuse and get away with it again. Has the dog gone through force fetch? Force to pile? Water force?
> 
> All that said, here is the disclaimer: anytime you are hunting in really cold conditions you need to watch the dog for signs of hypothermia. Just because you can make them get in doesn't mean you should.


And why is he giving him the middle finger????Jim


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

And why is the dog giving him the middle finger? My guess his guts and heart is the size of an acorn.
Ok,nother scenario,jr wants to play football but hates hitting do we force jr into it or do we find a kid that wants to hit? Jim


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> And why is the dog giving him the middle finger? My guess his guts and heart is the size of an acorn.
> Ok,nother scenario,jr wants to play football but hates hitting do we force jr into it or do we find a kid that wants to hit? Jim


You make Junior a skill position player..lol


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Somehow Paul I saw that coming from you..Haaaaaa


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

sageandtun said:


> I have a 15 month old lab that has been hunting all season and has been doing great. today we hunted a large, half frozen pond with ice around the edges and he just flat out would not retrieve the ducks. He really did not want to get in the water. This is not lack of drive or training so, with all due respect, those are not the answers that I am looking for. I played with a dead duck with him for a while when we where done hunting both on dry land and throwing it in the water. He was as thrilled as ever to pick it up off of the ground but wanted nothing to do with it in the water. *I was able to force him to it in the water *but he certainly did not want to go. Any suggestions on what we might try to get through this? I live in montana so over half of our season is very cold. Thank you for any help!


I don't have any solutions but from the OP, it looks like there has been force in his program.


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## goldust (May 12, 2005)

You mentioned that he is very thin and you can't get weight on him. Change food to a more caloric dense product - adding more quantity of a low cal product won't do anything to help, add satin balls or dyne. It seems that many field type Labs don't have any undercoat which they really need in harsh weather. No fat on him isn't good either. They need some to help keep the cold away. I know this isn't the only answer to your problem but it would be an easy place to start for this winter and work on the water issue in the summer. A vest wouldn't hurt either.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

jd6400 said:


> Been at this way over 40 yrs Bruce,all my dogs and clients dogs get FF but not to get in the liquid after a bird that has been shot.That has to come from the heart of said animal.And it`s sad to say a lot of heart has been lost in todays lab.Don`t get me wrong,there are still a ton of labs out there with a lot of heart.Just not the percentages there was 50 years ago.
> 
> As far as personal dogs now....We have 6 chessies with more on the way!!!!!At least for now they havn`t gottn popular,and we all know what happens when a breed gets popular.Would you like a list? Jim


I have seen labs refuse to get in the water. Chessies, boykins and poodles do the same things. When I see the big swim in the 4th series mostly it is labs that have the heart & guts to make that swim. I will force my dogs to water. That way the day they decide they don't want to swim I will have an option. 

Option b is to force fetch an otter.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

fishduck said:


> I have seen labs refuse to get in the water. Chessies, boykins and poodles do the same things. When I see the big swim in the 4th series mostly it is labs that have the heart & guts to make that swim. I will force my dogs to water. That way the day they decide they don't want to swim I will have an option.
> 
> Option b is to force fetch an otter.


Most peaked don't make it to the 4th.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

jd6400 said:


> And why is the dog giving him the middle finger? My guess his guts and heart is the size of an acorn.
> Ok,nother scenario,jr wants to play football but hates hitting do we force jr into it or do we find a kid that wants to hit? Jim


"screw you, I'm not getting in that water...IT'S COOOOLD!" = middle finger
For many folks, finding another dog isn't in the cards
I agree, drive is part of the problem(and I said that) but I also think that many dogs put through a proper force program will do the work just fine. I am not advocating a brutal force situation here, if the dog requires that to do the work it just not fair to the dog or the trainer.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

SjSmith said:


> I don't have any solutions but from the OP, it looks like there has been force in his program.


maybe, maybe not. Could have just been pissed enough to throw the dog in. 
This is a big problem with trying to give advise to these kinds of posts. Way to little info. Has the dog been in water before? What was his reaction there? Was it the ice freaking him out or was it the cold? What training background does the dog have? Then we are told by the op that it isn't a drive or training problem when everyone reading it knows that is exactly what the issue is.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

achiro said:


> "screw you, I'm not getting in that water...IT'S COOOOLD!" = middle finger
> For many folks, finding another dog isn't in the cards
> I agree, drive is part of the problem(and I said that) but I also think that many dogs put through a proper force program will do the work just fine. I am not advocating a brutal force situation here, if the dog requires that to do the work it just not fair to the dog or the trainer.


Agree.....let's also do a little homework on our next pup.Jim


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Guys and gals....Our heart is there, but the imagination can run wild. The ball is back to the OP for more info maybe....Who knows....Hopefully he cares about his dog enough and will gives us more insight.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

I love hunting in ice.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Well there you go....Thor just made it thru MY 4th series!Beautiful Nick.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

j towne said:


> I love hunting in ice.


great pictures. I just got an invite to go hunt off the Maryland coast. Is that where you hunt?


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Just for you Jim.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

I hunt all over md


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm sure you are safe with your dogs, so this isn't directed at you, but for others; here in Montana we lose at least one hunter each year who tried save a dog that broke thru ice. I am very carful where I send my dog this time of year.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

achiro said:


> Damn this place has gone to absolute hell. Bottom of page 2 and nobody has even gotten close. You say it isn't a drive or training problem and in fact, you are wrong. It is one or both and probably more a training issue than drive. Unless there is some sort of health issue(doubtful) that dog is just giving you the finger and has decided that he is more comfy staying dry. I do agree that now is not the time to fix it but that means biting the bullet and not putting the dog in the situation to refuse and get away with it again. Has the dog gone through force fetch? Force to pile? Water force?
> 
> All that said, here is the disclaimer: anytime you are hunting in really cold conditions you need to watch the dog for signs of hypothermia. Just because you can make them get in doesn't mean you should.


It's kind of sad isn't it Russ?


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

John Robinson said:


> I'm sure you are safe with your dogs, so this isn't directed at you, but for others; here in Montana we lose at least one hunter each year who tried save a dog that broke thru ice. I am very carful where I send my dog this time of year.


Here in Maryland we loose a couple hunters each year that try to hunt in to rough conditions.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

10 degrees and breaking 2" of ice all day today. Luckily no wind. Hunting is no big deal. Live birds and excitement. Shoot live birds over ice all day. Take the same dog and give it a fourth series triple with cold weather, two retired and all birds 200 yard swims and you see a different animal. Dogs will swim a slurpy river for a downed cripple. Ain't always going to do it for a white coat popper duck with another dogs slobber on it.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

j towne said:


> Here in Maryland we loose a couple hunters each year that try to hunt in to rough conditions.


20 people got hit by trains in Washington this year.


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> 20 people got hit by trains in Washington this year.


Were they on their way to a duck hunt?


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Well to the OP,I hope you get this figured out and it works out for you.You have also got to see some of RTF`s most classy people!!!! God luck this season. Jim


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

sageandtun said:


> I have a 15 month old lab that has been hunting all season and has been doing great. today we hunted a large, half frozen pond with ice around the edges and he just flat out would not retrieve the ducks. He really did not want to get in the water. This is not lack of drive or training so, with all due respect, those are not the answers that I am looking for. I played with a dead duck with him for a while when we where done hunting both on dry land and throwing it in the water. He was as thrilled as ever to pick it up off of the ground but wanted nothing to do with it in the water. I was able to force him to it in the water but he certainly did not want to go. Any suggestions on what we might try to get through this? I live in montana so over half of our season is very cold. Thank you for any help!


Like most know, dog are situational learners and yes some are more bold then others. That being said most will do the job.

From your post, you said that he has been fine so far, but dose not like cold water. than I would start in shallow cold water and close, where he can see the mark. once I got the dog retrieving at a good pace I would add the collar. If everything goes well, then I would start moving out deeper and deeper. If I get a refusal, I would step forward with a fetch nick fetch. 

If you are having problems in shallow water, I would stop there and in the summer go back over my force to water, part of my program. 

Keith


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> Were they on their way to a duck hunt?


Lol..........


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

truthseeker said:


> From your post, you said that he has been fine so far, but dose not like cold water. than I would start in shallow cold water and close, where he can see the mark. once I got the dog retrieving at a good pace I would add the collar. If everything goes well, then I would start moving out deeper and deeper. If I get a refusal, I would step forward with a fetch nick fetch.
> 
> 
> 
> Keith


I wold have to be VERY FAMILIAR with this dog and his training and attitude before I would give this advice to a newcomer over the internet.
That is the problem with internet training advice. Dog training is a hands on discipline that requires intimate personal knowledge of the individual dog in front of you as well as the ability to read the dog. NO VIDEO, TELEPHONE CALL OR INTERNET ADVICE CAN EVER DO THAT!!!

The best advice I could give the OP is to get with a good experience pro, mentor or training group


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> I wold have to be VERY FAMILIAR with this dog and his training and attitude before I would give this advice to a newcomer over the internet.
> That is the problem with internet training advice. Dog training is a hands on discipline that requires intimate personal knowledge of the individual dog in front of you as well as the ability to read the dog. NO VIDEO, TELEPHONE CALL OR INTERNET ADVICE CAN EVER DO THAT!!!
> 
> The best advice I could give the OP is to get with a good experience pro, mentor or training group


Sounds like solid, realistic guidance for training a dog in general much less learning how to avoid and solve problems.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

mjh345 said:


> I wold have to be VERY FAMILIAR with this dog and his training and attitude before I would give this advice to a newcomer over the internet.
> That is the problem with internet training advice. Dog training is a hands on discipline that requires intimate personal knowledge of the individual dog in front of you as well as the ability to read the dog. NO VIDEO, TELEPHONE CALL OR INTERNET ADVICE CAN EVER DO THAT!!!
> 
> The best advice I could give the OP is to get with a good experience pro, mentor or training group


First you only put half my answer and just rude. I see no problem throwing a few for the dog in sallow water to see if it was just the situation that was the problem. That's all it might be.

If everyone gave your advise, no one would learn anything on this forum.

Keith


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

truthseeker said:


> Like most know, dog are situational learners and yes some are more bold then others. That being said most will do the job.
> 
> From your post, you said that he has been fine so far, but dose not like cold water. than I would start in shallow cold water and close, where he can see the mark. once I got the dog retrieving at a good pace I would add the collar. If everything goes well, then I would start moving out deeper and deeper. If I get a refusal, I would step forward with a fetch nick fetch.
> 
> ...


EXCUSE ME Keith
I now quoted your entire post. From my perspective it changes little or nothing. You still advised a new trainer to apply collar pressure force to a young dog in cold water. I believe that is BAD ADVICE!! This is an inexperienced trainer and a young dog that you know nothing about their experience and training. 
Last I checked this was an open forum where all can express their thoughts to possibly help those who ask. 
If you think me disagreeing with your advice is rude, well then I'm sorry to get your panties in a wad & offend your tender sensibilities. 

So tell me the truth "TRUTHSEEKER" what part of my advice telling the OP to seek competent experienced hands on help do you object to


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I did not have a problem with your answer. I thought you miss quoted me by not putting my whole post and you still are. Where I stated if you are having problems with no pressure,I would stop there.

Keith


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

truthseeker said:


> I thought you miss quoted me by not putting my whole post and you still are.
> 
> Keith


Really? What part of your post did I not quote or put up, the second time?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I guess everyone reads what they want and I can't make them see other wise.

I think taking this any further is not going to help anyone. 

Keith


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

sageandtun said:


> I have a 15 month old lab that has been hunting all season and has been doing great. today we hunted a large, half frozen pond with ice around the edges and he just flat out would not retrieve the ducks. He really did not want to get in the water. This is not lack of drive or training so, with all due respect, those are not the answers that I am looking for. !


This would tell me that hands on, experienced time with a competent trainer or training group would have 'avoided' this perceived 'non training' or 'non-desire' issue which I believe was the basis of Marks post rather than forums solving problems that shouldn't exist in the first place. 

I could be wrong though.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

HNTFSH said:


> This would tell me that hands on, experienced time with a competent trainer or training group would have 'avoided' this perceived 'non training' or 'non-desire' issue which I believe was the basis of Marks post rather than forums solving problems that shouldn't exist in the first place.
> 
> I could be wrong though.


You're not


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

HNTFSH said:


> This would tell me that hands on, experienced time with a competent trainer or training group would have 'avoided' this perceived 'non training' or 'non-desire' issue which I believe was the basis of Marks post rather than forums solving problems that shouldn't exist in the first place.
> 
> I could be wrong though.


It's good of you to come to the defense of your friend, but again it's not the advise that I had a problem with. It's the fact that he cherry picked something out of the middle of my answer and took it completely out of context and that not right.

That's just being a jerk.

Keith


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

More so outlining that the OP (no offense to him) might be naive about the issue and reinforces that by stating it couldn't possibly be a desire or training issue and further more wants to hear nothing of it. I mean c'mon...if not one of those two things the alternative is someone taught the dog (at worst) that cold water is bad, right? At best didn't cover the confidence factor in water well enough ahead.

In terms of suggestions yours both included force if met by resistance. Summer or winter. Water force could help...but personally I'd figure it out before force because after all the dog does everything else 'great', right?

I'd guess the OP missed some stuff and frankly would rather start there but folks can only do that effectively live and in person where they can see what they see versus read what they're told. Which is what I supported in MJH345's response.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

HNTFSH said:


> More so outlining that the OP (no offense to him) might be naive about the issue and reinforces that by stating it couldn't possibly be a desire or training issue and further more wants to hear nothing of it. I mean c'mon...if not one of those two things the alternative is someone taught the dog (at worst) that cold water is bad, right? At best didn't cover the confidence factor in water well enough ahead.
> 
> In terms of suggestions yours both included force if met by resistance. Summer or winter. Water force could help...but personally I'd figure it out before force because after all the dog does everything else 'great', right?
> 
> I'd guess the OP missed some stuff and frankly would rather start there but folks can only do that effectively live and in person where they can see what they see versus read what they're told. Which is what I supported in MJH345's response.


I agree with you. Based on his dog's apparent birdyness and drive to retrieve up to that point, the OP extrapolated those traits to water and didn't want to hear anything contrary. I haven't read all the post since I posted a reply early on, so don't know if he's returned to the thread with any additional information, but it seems like many are posting advise he didn't want to hear. My point was that it could be a number of things including a lack of heart in the dog, but with winter coming on hard, now wasn't the time to force the dog into cold water. Now if we knew the dog had advanced through a proper training program including FF, FTP and water force, we would know the tools were built in and we could deal with it accordingly, but I didn't get that impression. Hence my advise to skip duck hunting this season and deal with it in a proper manner over Spring, and Summer. 

Keith's idea of running some simple retrieves across shallow, running water isn't a bad one, but again I would leave the force out of it unless and until we know for sure the dog understands force and how to handle it.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> First you only put half my answer and just rude. I see no problem throwing a few for the dog in sallow water to see if it was just the situation that was the problem. That's all it might be.
> 
> If everyone gave your advise, no one would learn anything on this forum.
> 
> Keith


Keith, I see you met Healy. A real peach, huh?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Been busy! No time for Internet banter.

Actually ran into something similar this weekend. Knocked down a couple of ducks out of the back of the pit. 22 month old Lab did not see the fall. Ran the blind down the levee. Dog did not want to take the angle entry into water. Two cast refusals. Stopped & nick. Dog cast into the water & brought back the duck. Without a complete water force program, I would have been throwing rocks or the dog or retrieving ducks myself.

I really don't think my dog has a heart & guts the size of an acorn. Hunted all morning in 20 mph wind, temp high 30's without 1 whimper. She flushed up a cripple off the levee the same day. Chased the flying duck 175 yards. Stuck with it as it dove for at least 2 minutes. Finally corralled it against another levee & retrieved the duck to hand. I am going to keep her. 

I had the tools to handle the problem. When I leave the driveway in my truck you can bet there is a jack & a lug wrench under the back seat. To buy a new truck because it has a flat tire is advice I will quickly dismiss. I won't switch breeds because of one single issue either. I love Chessies, Goldens, Boykins, Tollers, Poodles, Drathaars & almost every other breed of working dogs. If I had the time, I would own a lot of these breeds. Because space, time & money is limited, I will stick to the Lab as they best fit my needs.

My advice to the original poster is to not hunt the dog this year. Wait til this summer & as previously mentioned have someone walk you through a solid water force program. Next year, you will have the tool needed to address the issue.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> I agree with you. Based on his dog's apparent birdyness and drive to retrieve up to that point, the OP extrapolated those traits to water and didn't want to hear anything contrary. I haven't read all the post since I posted a reply early on, so don't know if he's returned to the thread with any additional information, but it seems like many are posting advise he didn't want to hear. My point was that it could be a number of things including a lack of heart in the dog, but with winter coming on hard, now wasn't the time to force the dog into cold water. Now if we knew the dog had advanced through a proper training program including FF, FTP and water force, we would know the tools were built in and we could deal with it accordingly, but I didn't get that impression. Hence my advise to skip duck hunting this season and deal with it in a proper manner over Spring, and Summer.
> 
> Keith's idea of running some simple retrieves across shallow, running water isn't a bad one, but again I would leave the force out of it unless and until we know for sure the dog understands force and how to handle it.


I agree, I just gave him a quick way to find out for him self. in a controlled environment. 

Step one, No pressure if the dog responds well move to step two. If the dog breaks down in step two, he will see the contrast vary quickly. Stop there, wait until summer and go back over the force to water part of his program.

The way I read the OP, he felt, that there was no problem with his program. So it must be environmental Right. Sometimes thing have to be learned on our own.

Keith


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

fishduck said:


> My advice to the original poster is to not hunt the dog this year. Wait til this summer & as previously mentioned have someone walk you through a solid water force program. Next year, you will have the tool needed to address the issue.


Maybe the best advice on the thread.


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## Kevin Eskam (Mar 2, 2007)

BlaineT said:


> Maybe the best advice on the thread.


I agree! Dogs need Tools? Yes they do......


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

huntinman said:


> Keith, I see you met Healy. A real peach, huh?


Billy you'd have to buy a C and an L to ever have CLASS.

This is a training thread Billy, not the POTUS septic tank. Seems like whenever I point out something that you posted on POTUS is ridiculously inaccurate, that you get your panties in a wad and make unrelated personal attacks on me here on the main forum. 
My suggestion to you is that you educate yourself, so as to not make such ridiculous assertions as to the "MSM covering up WMD;s or what is the the makeup of Congress. I doubt you are capable of that, so at the very least keep your obsession with me & unrelated personal attacks on the POTUS thread where you have been educated. I'll be happy to argue and match wits with you there 

This is a retriever training site Billy, and this is the main forum where training questions are brought up. Show some restraint, and offer up your knowledge to the OP Do you agree or disagree with what I said or what anyone else has said? Do you have anything helpful to contribute for the OP


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> Billy you'd have to buy a C and an L to ever have CLASS.
> 
> This is a training thread Billy, not the POTUS septic tank. Seems like whenever I point out something that you posted on POTUS is ridiculously inaccurate, that you get your panties in a wad and make unrelated personal attacks on me here on the main forum.
> My suggestion to you is that you educate yourself, so as to not make such ridiculous assertions as to the "MSM covering up WMD;s or what is the the makeup of Congress. I doubt you are capable of that, so at the very least keep your obsession with me & unrelated personal attacks on the POTUS thread where you have been educated. I'll be happy to argue and match wits with you there
> ...



Hmmm. We haven't even spoken lately on PP. Don't know what you are getting all worked up about. I merely introduced Keith to you. In true Healy fashion, you go on some unintelligible rant. In order to match wits with me, you must have some to start with. Happy Thanksgiving

PS... try to remember to take your meds


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

huntinman said:


> Hmmm In order to match wits with me, you must have some to start with. Happy Thanksgiving
> 
> PS... try to remember to take your meds


Says the man who says Congress consists of only the House, and who says that Iraq had WMD's and it was a conspiracy by the MSM: 10 years after the Bush Admin admitted they were wrong on WMD's


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> Says the man who says Congress consists of only the House, and who says that Iraq had WMD's and it was a conspiracy by the MSM: 10 years after the Bush Admin admitted they were wrong on WMD's


Sounds like your chemicals are getting the best of you.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Chill out, this isn't POTUS. Bill you were wrong to bring your POTUS crap into this forum. Nothing rude was posted in this thread until you decided to jump in and jump on mjh


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

achiro said:


> Chill out, this isn't POTUS. Bill you were wrong to bring your POTUS crap into this forum. Nothing rude was posted in this thread until you decided to jump in and jump on mjh


Contrary, to anything posted by the other post... There is no POTUS crap involved. You and the person who posted that are both misinformed.

PS... If you can find the post from the last month or so where I have said anything to MJH on PP, lets see it.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Boys, boys , boys......take it behind the barn , will ya ? !!


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Boys, boys , boys......take it behind the barn , will ya ? !!


Or take it outside and settle your differences there....


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

achiro said:


> Chill out, this isn't POTUS. Bill you were wrong to bring your POTUS crap into this forum. Nothing rude was posted in this thread until you decided to jump in and jump on mjh


I don't see it that way, Bill just chimed in to let me known how to deal with 345.

Thanks Bill

Keith


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Respectfully-
Would definately agree with mj345 and HNTFSH on using collar pressure on a young dog in cold water. 

Take a look back at Nicks' Chessie pics. I'm a poor man, but would bet my next paycheck that Thor hasn't seen any collar pressure in a long, (long), time. Based on my own huntin' experiences with dogs in cold arse water for me,.. it's really more about how a dog "feels" about retrieving in general, and the intimate relationship the dog has, (or doesn't have) with _birds._ 

Have seen properly FF'd dogs scarf at cold water as if it wasn't written in the "contract". Particularly after having the luxury of nice, warm water to train in most of the time, and then a lapse in training as huntin' season nears. THEN the dog is suddenly asked to retrieve in water that it's just not acclimated to.
Best thing I could suggest is to keep a dog active in water from Sept. thru fall and into winter as water temps continue to drop.

Will never believe that FF' creates a lifelong passion for a dog to "like" cold water.


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## Waterdogs (Jan 20, 2006)

My first season young dogs I hunt early and then my older more experienced dogs. It is easy to offer advice from the outside but at 15 months a dog should be pounding the water and have good bit of training before entering the duck blind. Even at that my bests dogs that first season I never over work them on cold days. Some dogs have drive and grit some don't but even at that the first season should be about the dog. Your not going to be able to do anything but train till spring and I would get more training done and not push the issue.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Respectfully-
> Would definately agree with mj345 and HNTFSH on using collar pressure on a young dog in cold water.
> 
> Take a look back at Nicks' Chessie pics. I'm a poor man, but would bet my next paycheck that Thor hasn't seen any collar pressure in a long, (long), time. Based on my own huntin' experiences with dogs in cold arse water for me,.. it's really more about how a dog "feels" about retrieving in general, and the intimate relationship the dog has, (or doesn't have) with _birds.
> ...


Swampbilly
You bring up some very good points,, There seems to be a lot of myths about FF being some kind of a magic bullet. Sometimes a dogs BOTTOM has a lot to do with it. I get dogs in that won't enter thick tule.s let alone cold water. All the FF in the world won't change a thing. Why is the dog quitting? If with proper training and many opportunities to succeed and improve the dog still quits its because the dog has a lot of quit in it. Unsustainable drive for what ever reason.

Pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> My first season young dogs I hunt early and then my older more experienced dogs. It is easy to offer advice from the outside but at 15 months a dog should be pounding the water and have good bit of training before entering the duck blind. Even at that my bests dogs that first season I never over work them on cold days. Some dogs have drive and grit some don't but even at that the first season should be about the dog. Your not going to be able to do anything but train till spring and I would get more training done and not push the issue.


This is good advice also. Dogs are OH so different. There are also quitters that you can turn into pretty much non quitters,, If you go about it as Jake suggested.
There are also extremes at both ends. Your dog may not even be a quitter at heart,,,it could just be a learning curve.
Pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> have a 15 month old lab that has been hunting all season and has been doing great. today we hunted a large, half frozen pond with ice around the edges and he just flat out would not retrieve the ducks. He really did not want to get in the water. This is not lack of drive or training so, with all due respect, those are not the answers that I am looking for. I played with a dead duck with him for a while when we where done hunting both on dry land and throwing it in the water. He was as thrilled as ever to pick it up off of the ground but wanted nothing to do with it in the water. I was able to force him to it in the water but he certainly did not want to go. Any suggestions on what we might try to get through this? I live in montana so over half of our season is very cold. Thank you for any help!


Sorry I over looked this.
A lot of dogs have problems with ice along the edges. Some don't like to step on ice,,, kind of like tile or wood floors or something. And if its shelf ice,meaning the dog has to climb back up once he enters the water then you will just have to help him over come that by helping him. Make entering off of shelf ice fun,,, often this does the trick,,find a place thats not to deep to start with.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Swampbilly said:


> Respectfully-
> Would definately agree with mj345 and HNTFSH on using collar pressure on a young dog in cold water.
> 
> Take a look back at Nicks' Chessie pics. I'm a poor man, but would bet my next paycheck that Thor hasn't seen any collar pressure in a long, (long), time. Based on my own huntin' experiences with dogs in cold arse water for me,.. it's really more about how a dog "feels" about retrieving in general, and the intimate relationship the dog has, (or doesn't have) with _birds._
> ...


I agree, but you are reading something into the OP that is not there. This thread has gone way off on a tangent.

Keith.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Pete said:


> Sorry I over looked this.
> A lot of dogs have problems with ice along the edges. Some don't like to step on ice,,, kind of like tile or wood floors or something. And if its shelf ice,meaning the dog has to climb back up once he enters the water then you will just have to help him over come that by helping him. Make entering off of shelf ice fun,,, often this does the trick,,find a place thats not to deep to start with.


It's easy to do, when what we are talking about has nothing to do with the OP.

Keith


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> It's easy to do, when what we are talking about has nothing to do with the OP.
> 
> Keith


I'm afraid we scared the OP away, he hasn't posted since a follow up post on the first page.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Pete said:


> Sorry I over looked this.
> A lot of dogs have problems with ice along the edges. Some don't like to step on ice,,, kind of like tile or wood floors or something. And if its shelf ice,meaning the dog has to climb back up once he enters the water then you will just have to help him over come that by helping him. Make entering off of shelf ice fun,,, often this does the trick,,find a place thats not to deep to start with.


Right Pete 

Sometimes the dog might have to enter through ice on shore, swim, exit out and re-enter...and if he has a problem with it, could wind up a long day, (or a short one).
Always do try to "handle smarter" and not handle harder, and encourage the dog to do the same by "retrieving smarter" and not retrieving harder, by SENDING the dog (when possible) thru the same area he entered on previous retrieves, and returning back thru the same place by breaking up an area in front of the blind, establishing "the line". Not so much to accomodate the dog, but to make life a little easier.

I like straight lines both out and returning, and if the standard is maintained all the time, it ain't going to kill the standard by allowing the dog to make some of it's own, (right) decisions in some of these situations, even if the dog is handled and allowed to "cheat" the ice.

Really no different than teaching pup to return to the "dog ladder" when huntin' from a floating blind.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> I'm afraid we scared the OP away, he hasn't posted since a follow up post on the first page.


LOL!!!!!!

Keith


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Swampbilly said:


> Right Pete
> 
> Sometimes the dog might have to enter through ice on shore, swim, exit out and re-enter...and if he has a problem with it, could wind up a long day, (or a short one).
> Always do try to "handle smarter" and not handle harder, and encourage the dog to do the same by "retrieving smarter" and not retrieving harder, by SENDING the dog (when possible) thru the same area he entered on previous retrieves, and returning back thru the same place by breaking up an area in front of the blind, establishing "the line". Not so much to accomodate the dog, but to make life a little easier.
> ...


I hold standards for some things such as sitting steady and taking cast during hunting season, but I relax some others. Running a bank is one I let slide, especially in late season cold weather hunting. I hunt the Flathead River a lot, this time of year it is half ice with very cold water. I actually prefer my dog to run down the shore, then square into the water, then straight back to shore and run back on land as fast as possible. I prefer this for two reasons; 1) it saves wear and tear on my dog in cold icy conditions, 2) it's much faster and less likely to flair birds that could come in at any time. If this relaxation created bad habits that carried over into field trials I would change my method, but it doesn't. The dogs being as situational as they are, know when they can do this and when they can't.

John


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

While hunting, I pretty much let them take their path. Even though I hunt the same areas most of the time, I really do not know whats out there and feel, that they know better then I do. That being said, if I know of a hazard I will keep them away.

Like yesterday, we where pheasant hunting along side a levy road. On the other side was a slue with a jagged rocky incline down to the water ( A real leg breaker) I would make sure If she went that way I would turn her.

Keith


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

huntinman said:


> Contrary, to anything posted by the other post... There is no POTUS crap involved. You and the person who posted that are both misinformed.
> 
> PS... If you can find the post from the last month or so where I have said anything to MJH on PP, lets see it.


Billy along with a Civics lesson and a media bias lesson it is clear that you could use a reading comprehension lesson.This is a training thread Billy, not the POTUS septic tank. Seems like whenever I point out something that you posted on POTUS is ridiculously inaccurate, that you get your panties in a wad and make unrelated personal attacks on me here on the main forum.
This is a training thread Billy, not the POTUS septic tank. Seems like whenever I point out something that you posted on POTUS is ridiculously inaccurate, that you get your panties in a wad and make unrelated personal attacks on me here on the main forum.

Nobody said that you exchange barbs with me on POTUS. What you do is get schooled on POTUS on a subject. You know you have been schooled, so you take your hurt feelings to the main forum and launch an attack on me that is 100% completely personal, unrelated and non helpful or responsive to the OP's question Additionally it disrupts the decorum on the main forum. POTUS has less decorum & was designed to keep the main forum clean of petty personal arguments. 


In the interest of decorum I have two suggestions for you. The best solution would be for you to educate yourself; so as to prevent you from espousing foolish factually incorrect blather. Then nobody will be able to embarrass you for your foolishness; additionally you will be better informed


The second suggestion for you would be the next time you post something ridiculously incorrect on POTUS that you keep your hurt feelings and personal attacks confined to the POTUS echo chamber.
Now Have a Happy Thanksgiving
Cheers


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> Billy along with a Civics lesson and a media bias lesson it is clear that you could use a reading comprehension lesson.This is a training thread Billy, not the POTUS septic tank. Seems like whenever I point out something that you posted on POTUS is ridiculously inaccurate, that you get your panties in a wad and make unrelated personal attacks on me here on the main forum.
> This is a training thread Billy, not the POTUS septic tank. Seems like whenever I point out something that you posted on POTUS is ridiculously inaccurate, that you get your panties in a wad and make unrelated personal attacks on me here on the main forum.
> 
> Nobody said that you exchange barbs with me on POTUS. What you do is get schooled on POTUS on a subject. You know you have been schooled, so you take your hurt feelings to the main forum and launch an attack on me that is 100% completely personal, unrelated and non helpful or responsive to the OP's question Additionally it disrupts the decorum on the main forum. POTUS has less decorum & was designed to keep the main forum clean of petty personal arguments.
> ...


Yet you bring it up again, seems like neither of you can just drop it. I have no idea what goes on over on the POTUS site, I can't imagine it would be helpful to anyone, but I could be wrong.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

GET OFF This thread with the BS , YOU MARC are being an azz


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Welp 8 pages of posting and I've been pulled in. First off Pup's only 15mt old, we do not know where he is in training (most likely not- through water force), but one would bet that this is his first hunting season, first season dealing with cold water, training on the job, and he has a lot of stuff to pick up and learn. As such I wouldn't consider it a big deal should a pup balk at entering cold water, or not quite be up to standard that we would expect of a veteran hunting dog. The OP forced him into the water; the dog picked up the bird, the dog will most likely go in and pick up the bird next time, or the OP will force him in again. Plus side the OP had some tools to work with and didn't have to get out his rock bag. Dog has bird drive, a bit more hunt conditioning and hunting experience and the dog will be going in and picking up birds on his own. Are there things to work on during the off-season? Sure but isn't that the purpose of a dog first season (to figure out what those things are)? Mountain-Mole Hill, hunt your dog, do what's needed to get your birds, examine what issues might need to be addressed after hunting season is over (if they don't solve themselves). And don't discount those things that will be learned through actually hunting.


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Swampbilly said:


> Respectfully-
> Would definately agree with mj345 and HNTFSH on using collar pressure on a young dog in cold water.
> 
> Take a look back at Nicks' Chessie pics. I'm a poor man, but would bet my next paycheck that Thor hasn't seen any collar pressure in a long, (long), time. Based on my own huntin' experiences with dogs in cold arse water for me,.. it's really more about how a dog "feels" about retrieving in general, and the intimate relationship the dog has, (or doesn't have) with _birds._
> ...


Even though 90 percent sure Nick did water force...I'll bet you any amount of money that he never had to force him in ice....got 2 Thor pups here right now and will gaurentee tomorrow they will do what they have to to get a bird.It s heart and desire pure and simple.now if you got one that won't get in the liquid then I see no other recourse than to force.I personally want to see them do it on their own because they WANT to...not because they HAvE too.Took me a few years but got what I Want now.Jim


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Welp 8 pages of posting and I've been pulled in. First off Pup's only 15mt old, we do not know where he is in training (most likely not- through water force), but one would bet that this is his first hunting season, first season dealing with cold water, training on the job, and he has a lot of stuff to pick up and learn. As such I wouldn't consider it a big deal should a pup balk at entering cold water, or not quite be up to standard that we would expect of a veteran hunting dog. The OP forced him into the water; the dog picked up the bird, the dog will most likely go in and pick up the bird next time, or the OP will force him in again. Plus side the OP had some tools to work with and didn't have to get out his rock bag. Dog has bird drive, a bit more hunt conditioning and hunting experience and the dog will be going in and picking up birds on his own. Are there things to work on during the off-season? Sure but isn't that the purpose of a dog first season (to figure out what those things are)? Mountain-Mole Hill, hunt your dog, do what's needed to get your birds, examine what issues might need to be addressed after hunting season is over (if they don't solve themselves). And don't discount those things that will be learned through actually hunting.


This is what I use to. 

I just sent one of my dogs home, the last week of October and just told the owner go hunt him. He has been force to water, but not cold water. 

The owner ask me what should I do? I said this is your second dog with me, you what to do. I need to know what he has and what I need to work on when I pick him up in January, to get ready for his HT.

Keith


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

jd6400 said:


> Even though 90 percent sure Nick did water force...I'll bet you any amount of money that he never had to force him in ice....got 2 Thor pups here right now and will gaurentee tomorrow they will do what they have to to get a bird.It s heart and desire pure and simple.now if you got one that won't get in the liquid then I see no other recourse than to force.I personally want to see them do it on their own because they WANT to...not because they HAvE too.Took me a few years but got what I Want now.Jim


Jim- sounds like you've got yourself a couple nice pups!
I'd agree ole Thor was more than likely water forced, and no need to bet on the latter! Easy to establish how Thor "feels" about retrieving, and would believe that an important part of that eagerness was established long before the first ear pinch.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

John Robinson said:


> I hold standards for some things such as sitting steady and taking cast during hunting season, but I relax some others. Running a bank is one I let slide, especially in late season cold weather hunting. I hunt the Flathead River a lot, this time of year it is half ice with very cold water. I actually prefer my dog to run down the shore, then square into the water, then straight back to shore and run back on land as fast as possible. I prefer this for two reasons; 1) it saves wear and tear on my dog in cold icy conditions, 2) it's much faster and less likely to flair birds that could come in at any time. If this relaxation created bad habits that carried over into field trials I would change my method, but it doesn't. The dogs being as situational as they are, know when they can do this and when they can't.
> 
> John


I worried myself to death about losing the standard thru hunting, but came to realize as you've pointed out John, that if maintained otherwise it won't upset the apple cart.

(But still have reservations about hunting situations and the effects of,.. real close to a HT)


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Swampbilly said:


> I worried myself to death about losing the standard thru hunting, but came to realize as you've pointed out John, that if maintained otherwise it won't upset the apple cart.
> 
> (But still have reservations about hunting situations and the effects of,.. real close to a HT)


Yeah, I have the luxury, if you can call it that, of having a three month break for solid training from the end of hunting season to our first field trial. It would definitely be a bit more dicey to go straight from hunting to a hunt test.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Swampbilly said:


> Jim- sounds like you've got yourself a couple nice pups!
> I'd agree ole Thor was more than likely water forced, and no need to bet on the latter! Easy to establish how Thor "feels" about retrieving, and would believe that an important part of that eagerness was established long before the first ear pinch.


Thor had a late start in training. He didnt finish his half ass FF until he was 15 months old and it cost me $2000. But he still passed his first master test at 2 years old.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

His first goose hunt. 6 months old in Jan on the Chesapeake. The only reason this river didnt have ice is because of the current. Everything else was frozen. 


Ocean City Md Atlantic Ocean in December.

My other peake Rosie fighting a goose.





My lab was also good in the ice. I think some dogs like it and some refuse. I dont want a dog I have to make retrieve in cold water.


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