# ***Judges Issues***



## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

After Steve pulled his dishonest, unfair, incompetent judge thread. Ted S puts a poll on judging assignments where folks can stretch their suspenders & puff out their chest. & Chris A talks of running an unknowing judge under the bus with a grainy video & a serious lack of knowledge of what his dog should have been doing by the poster, can stupid be cured? I agree with Chris in this instance but don't believe a judge rates a pass from criticism just because they are working for room & board .

I've done this sport since 1963 - I entered the sport wanting a good hunting dog & FT's were all that were available - I have had the good fortune to train with some very competent people & have had the privilege of seeing some very good dogs developed firsthand including a few of my own - have thrown about 5K of dead & live birds at licensed trials - plus a lot of other things including helping keep a couple of sanctioned clubs alive long after their life support systems failed. In my day most of us did it because we loved the sport & the dog work. Today what I don't see are any number of people who are willing to do the grunt work so necessary to keep the sport functioing.

There are dishonest folks in this sport. They are easy to pick out as they follow a certain MO. If you want to cure that you need to call them on it. Otherwise they will take advantage of your laxity.They will have the hardware & you'll have what's left. There are more incompetent Judges with the book in their hands on any given weekend than any of us have fingers & toes. That is the biggest threat to the long term viability of keeping the sport alive, participants wise. 

There has been mention of various books that deal with the sport. IMO a thorough knowledge of the rule book & what it means is a necessity. Beyond that "The Status of a Judge of Licensed Field Trials" by the AKC printed in the Feb-March 1967 issue of Retriever FT News is a very good primer to live by. Beyond those 2 documents everything else is redundant. Note that "personal experience with dogs in the field" is prominently mentioned as is "conditions met in an ordinary days shoot" indicating the fathers of the sport felt it wouldn't be a bad idea if you actually worked with dogs .

There is more but the day has been long ;-).


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

In every single thread that even mentions the judging of a dog, you get an army of folks talking about how the judges are volunteers and how you shouldn't criticize their calls, etc. 

I do appreciate the fact that the judges do volunteer, and those that have yet to retire, take vacation days off work and don't run their own dogs. But...

I also believe that simply because we volunteer to judge, we are not above being criticized. Before we sit in the judges chair, we have a responsibility to the sport and our fellow competitors to work our rear ends off to make sure we know the rules, and that we further educate ourself on trial mechanics, test set up, bird placement, etc. We should get out and train or handle dogs so that we know, or at least have an idea of how a dog will be affected by the many factors they and the handlers will face. Understand how factors can change a test as the day progresses (shadows, sun, backlit guns, etc).

This is what I expect from myself, and I see nothing wrong with expecting the same from anyone holding the judges book. Judging is a tremendous responsibility, if we do the homework, and learn from the senior judges we are paired with, the criticism should diminish as we gain experience.


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## Gawthorpe (Oct 4, 2007)

Marvin
For two years I have been trying to puff my chest, but you have yet to let me know if I made your list of competent judges.
Waiting to exhale....


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Nevermind.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> Today what I don't see are any number of people who are willing to do the grunt work so necessary to keep the sport functioing.


Where the heck have you been this spring?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

captainjack said:


> In every single thread that even mentions the judging of a dog, you get an army of folks talking about how the judges are volunteers and how you shouldn't criticize their calls, etc.
> 
> I do appreciate the fact that the judges do volunteer, and those that have yet to retire, take vacation days off work and don't run their own dogs. But...
> 
> ...



This post is spot on........

john


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

There are two places you can go to find out who actually judges, runs, and works at trial.

To find out how often a person judges AKC events, go to http://www.akc.org/judges_directory/ and you can find out how often people who post on RTF actually judge

To find out how often a person runs AKC events, go to https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedIn/search.aspx, and search Entry Express with that person's name. The software isn't perfect, but you can get a good idea of how often they run

To find out who works at trials, the process is more complicated. But, you can do an Entry Express search for events in a state where a person lives, look at premiums for the event committee and get a rough sense of who works to put on events, and who does not.

I think that if you engage in that effort, you will find the results enlightening.

Ted


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> There are two places you can go to find out who actually judges, runs, and works at trial.
> 
> To find out how often a person judges AKC events, go to http://www.akc.org/judges_directory/ and you can find out how often people who post on RTF actually judge
> 
> ...


While you are at it, compare the ratio of the *number of events run *to the *number of times they have judged/worked/ chaired ,etc.* The more you eat the more you should PAY!........

john


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

John and Marvin,

I ask that you guys treat others the way you would like to be treated. It is that basic.

It is that basic. It is that basic with how you handle video (I guess I don't see either of you two using video and posting it to the net anytime soon). It is that basic with what you write and how you write it.

It is that basic and simple.

It is that basic as a judge as well.

Would it make you guys feel better if I wrote about that? Here: I'll do it.

Remember that when you judge, you are in a place that seemed scary and intimidating to you when you started running your dogs. Remember that certain judges have made you feel like crap, and others have really made you enjoy your test. As a judge, treat the handlers the way you would want to be treated. Yes, you will have to make judgement calls that may not be fun. Do so with fairness, with a rulebook to back your decisions, and with a sense of empathy to the handler impacted. 

It goes all the way around guys. All of us. Each and every one of us should use common courtesy.

The ONLY reason I chose to make my post about video yesterday was that I felt after the last week, that we are at a bit of a crossroads culturally. 

You guys may recall the "peanut" thread. That thread was aimed at treating each others right. That thread was aimed at being fair in terms of what you write.

IN the identical sense, my intent with the video topic was to do the same. Use common courtesy. It is that simple and basic.

You guys are trying to turn this into something that it is not. Sure there are judges out there that are crooked. I believe crooked judges get found out. I am here to tell you that I have spent a couple weekends judging with some folks that I won't judge with again. I believe that word gets out.

I am not prepared to sit by and deal with the phone calls and emails from the people wronged by the posted videos, while the Marvins and the Fallons continue to grind the axe of the judging conspiracy. I felt obligated to make an editorial comment about the culture of RTF and how to properly treat others with common courtesy when it comes to the misuse of audiotape and video. Judging happened to be one of the TWO examples that I used.

Guys, you all have email addresses. Surely you all have email distribution lists. If you want to send emails to a distribution that treat folks in an unkind manner and accuse them of stuff, GO FOR IT!

I'm not trying to change your morals in your life. I'm just trying to steer the culture of RTF.

Is that that hard to understand? Or do you get it?

Thanks, Chris


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

captainjack said:


> I also believe that simply because we volunteer to judge, we are not above being criticized. Before we sit in the judges chair, we have a responsibility to the sport and our fellow competitors to work our rear ends off to make sure we know the rules, and that we further educate ourself on trial mechanics, test set up, bird placement, etc. We should get out and train or handle dogs so that we know, or at least have an idea of how a dog will be affected by the many factors they and the handlers will face. Understand how factors can change a test as the day progresses (shadows, sun, backlit guns, etc).
> 
> This is what I expect from myself, and I see nothing wrong with expecting the same from anyone holding the judges book. Judging is a tremendous responsibility, if we do the homework, and learn from the senior judges we are paired with, the criticism should diminish as we gain experience.


Glen-

I don't see where anyone disagreed with this statement. The question that we've been discussing is taking a video without the judges' knowledge, posting it on the internet and then throwing them under the bus for the posters own personal agenda. Quite a bit of difference there. 

There are new people coming up learning to be good judges (hopefully) that don't need to be thrown under a bus. The poor judges that have been at this for years, shouldn't be asked to judge because if they are still poor after 30 years, they will always be poor. Sometimes people are asked to judge because they always say "yes" .... even though they aren't a good judge, clubs grab them because they are a body that can hold the book. Even they don't deserve to be thrown under the bus, but clubs need to stop asking those people to judge. they need to start developing new people to take over in the years to come. A succession plan so to speak. Otherwise, it's all just rhetoric.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Gawthorpe said:


> Marvin
> For two years I have been trying to puff my chest, but you have yet to let me know if I made your list of competent judges.
> Waiting to exhale....


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I realize MY approval won't measure up to Marvin's but, FWIW, I have seen only one of your tests and it was a good one!

Even though you don't like fluffys. 

JS


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## Powder1 (Sep 25, 2011)

Wow. Why is this so hard to understand? As Chris is saying, just respect each other. Don't we try and teach our kids this same lesson?

No, this is not about taking video without the judges knowledge. There are cameras and video cameras at almost every test. Handlers, judges and spectators should assume the event is being captured. There can be just as much damage with video from a distance as there can be from the line.

It shouldn't matter if a handler has a camera on their hat or if a friend is taking video from behind the judges. Take the video and just think before you post if it has ANYTHING other than you or your dog. Absolutely respect the sport enough not to post to try and make a judge look bad.

Respect each other.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I am not prepared to sit by and deal with the phone calls and emails from the people wronged by the posted videos, while the Marvins and the Fallons continue to grind the axe of the judging conspiracy.
> Thanks, Chris


Sorry, Chris, know you have stated that you dislike partial quotes. 
But, what is it about that above statement that certain people don't seem to get????

I happen to agree with Chris' stand on this issue. But, even if I did not, it is HIS site. He deserves respect.

How many have walked in his shoes, had to deal with this kind of thing on a daily basis?? Just this one thread, has probably cost him a lot of time, and energy. Time and energy no doubt, that he would prefer to spend elsewhere.
But, noooo, he has to do it because some just have to be the big internet hero..
This whole thing is _totally selfish_ by just a few individuals..

And, if people are so all fired eager to "learn" get out there and do it in the real world..You can't learn to train/handle/judge on RTF.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedIn/search.aspx[/url], and search Entry Express with that person's name. The software isn't perfect, but you can get a good idea of how often they runTed


Ted,
You are right. The software on Entry Express for the history of how many times a person has entered/handled a dog and which dog was entered/handled is not perfect. The first 10 pages (2004-2008) for "Don Graves" worked. Although it shows there are pages 11 - 20 for Don Graves, it would not bring up those pages. It was stuck on page 10, year 2008, and would not go beyond that.

Helen


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

The people who run dogs the most usually also have the least amount of time to help put on a test/trial.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> Sorry, Chris, know you have stated that you dislike partial quotes.
> But, what is it about that above statement that certain people don't seem to get????
> 
> I happen to agree with Chris' stand on this issue. But, even if I did not, it is HIS site. He deserves respect.
> ...


Well said, Charlotte....and Chris....

k g


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Where the heck have you been this spring?


I was going to come up & check out the grounds maintenance that you had done but got waylaid, sorry about that .


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> I was going to come up & check out the grounds maintenance that you had done but got waylaid, sorry about that .


 
yeah-yeah..... fogs gone. Going outside now. Gotta get my potatoes planted and finish my hop grow operation


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> The people who run dogs the most usually also have the least amount of time to help put on a test/trial.


For a "Happy" guy, you sure are a sourpuss.

I don't know where you get your information. Maybe things are different where you are.

In Colorado, there are six clubs

*Rocky Mountain*
- Larry Morgan, Tom Vaughn, Jeff Warren, Brian Biesemeier, Paul Knutson (a pro) and I put on two field trials a year. We all run dogs and we all judge dogs.

*Pikes Peak*
- Lainee Munhollon (FOM) and her husband, David, put on the trial. They run dogs, and they judge dogs.

*Fort Collins*
- Jeff Schoonover, John Montenieri, and Mark Veum (and others) put on the trial. Jeff and John run dogs and judge dogs. Mark will have a derby dog to run next year, and I expect will be judging dogs.

*Centennial*
- DeWitt Boice, Jr. David Hare, Don and Kathy Fregelette, Kenny Trott, and Marcy Wright put on two trials a year. Dee, Don, and Kathy run dogs and judge dogs. Kenny and Marcy are pros and cannot judge. David said that he will start judging. 

*Colorado Women's*
- Wayne and Tracey Jensen, Barb Branstad, Bev Ensley put on a trial. All of them run dogs and judge dogs.

*Cheyenne*
- Barry Cruikshank, Brian Bowles, Joel Harris put on two trials a year. All run dogs, all judge dogs

I am sure I have missed someone here and apologize in advance

But my points are these

1. There are a number of different people putting on trials in our area
2. Just about everyone that runs a dog here helps put on a trial here
3. Just about everyone that runs a dog here judges dogs here

Sure there are a few slackers. But, not very many.

Just about everyone here pulls their own weight. 

In short, your complaints may apply where you live, but they don't apply here.

Ted


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Chris Atkinson said:


> John and Marvin,
> 
> I ask that you guys treat others the way you would like to be treated. It is that basic.
> 
> ...


I'd like to point out a difference between John & myself. John is winging it as his personal experiences are limited, mine are not. 

In my OP I did not disagree with you as I rarely do. I respect the opportunities presented on this forum & I believe you would agree that a balance of opinions is required. It's not all sunshine & roses  in any endeavor. 

Back when I 1st started my website there was a discussion of judge evaluation which was taken to the WRC site in order to encourage more FT people to get involved. About 5 people participated with 2 doing the lion's share of the heavy lifting. Most folks are fearful of being on record, & the potential consequences. 

What I attempted to point out is judging is a weak link - just because someone judges, regardless of number of opportunities, does not validate them as competent, it betrays their level of competence - & while there are those who do not meet the standards of ethics - the majority are not capable of rendering proper decisions on dog work at the FT level because of a lack of preparation. The following partial quote sums it up quite well.

BTW - I enjoyed your training session video - I had a heeler who would do that work as long as I used bumpers, up to triples - she felt dead birds were hers to eat - & didn't do blinds 




captainjack said:


> I also believe that simply because we volunteer to judge, we are not above being criticized. Before we sit in the judges chair, we have a responsibility to the sport and our fellow competitors to work our rear ends off to make sure we know the rules, and that we further educate ourself on trial mechanics, test set up, bird placement, etc. We should get out and train or handle dogs so that we know, or at least have an idea of how a dog will be affected by the many factors they and the handlers will face. Understand how factors can change a test as the day progresses (shadows, sun, backlit guns, etc).
> 
> This is what I expect from myself, and I see nothing wrong with expecting the same from anyone holding the judges book. Judging is a tremendous responsibility, if we do the homework, and learn from the senior judges we are paired with, the criticism should diminish as we gain experience.


In a nutshell, that quote sums it up quite well. John & I agree on that . I have added emphasis as I thoroughly agree with the statement made.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> yeah-yeah..... fogs gone. Going outside now. Gotta get my potatoes planted and finish my hop grow operation


hops or HEMP  ?


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Gawthorpe said:


> Marvin
> For two years I have been trying to puff my chest, but you have yet to let me know if I made your list of competent judges.
> Waiting to exhale....


When I got your original message the tone was such that I thought you to be validating your positon in the a$$ family - whether it was to be smart or wise  - so much time has passed & I'm behind in filling in data so will have to pass - you'll have to accept JS's evaluation


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> hops or HEMP  ?


 
Which are you more experienced with Marvin? 










One of my overachievers....


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Paul,

Not many gardeners grow hops... especially in containers. Please explain to this backyard gardener why you are growing hops. Are you a micro brewer hobbyist ?

Just curious,
Helen


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

helencalif said:


> Paul,
> 
> Not many gardeners grow hops... especially in containers. Please explain to this backyard gardener why you are growing hops. Are you a micro brewer hobbyist ?
> 
> ...


The valley where I live was historically the first big hop growing area in Washington State. My co-farmer home brews and I have a small but, very popular brewery interested if, we can produce something good. My cousin also competes in brewing competitions across the US. Always the, "if" factor. The cost was under $30 and I have the space so, we thought we'd give it a try. I just transplanted everything today. Here is where we're starting the experiment.... If all goes well, we're planning on getting a little more technical next year. This was the reason for the tires. We can transplant the whole plant to a bigger location next year. 

This is the only "grass" growing around me....Say Hi to Gary from the Genie lift view....Hope someone doesn't get mad at me for taking pictures of him training....


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I shouldnt even respond to this thread,,, I have no business doing so,, But,,

I have been around several people that for what ever reason, they dont participate in HT or field trials.

They arent even a active member in clubs, but may enroll to be a "card carrier"

What these folks do however, is reguarly attend training days,, and are very helpfull and work their butts off throwin birds for others, re bird stations, bring training equiptment,ect, ect..
They have VERY nice dogs also,, with no letters in front of or behind their names...

Are these folks "GIVING BACK"??? 

Or do some here believe they are just "in It" for themselves??

I have always been very apprecitive of the guys that throw birds for me,, stay late doing so,making sure everyones dogs have been given thier due time at the line, and worked their butts off doing so,,,

They have helped me a bunch..



Gooser


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I should have said, "the most dogs" Ted..... not the "most trials"... 

Pro's don't have time to help the volunteers when they have over 10 dogs to run in multiple stakes. I have seen some pro's bring along their helpers and/or clients that have dogs running on their truck but, that isn't often and it isn't the norm.....that's a whole different topic but, the jist of what I was getting at... without starting a fist fight about it.... 

And, where I live has a pretty awesome support group of people who help each other out whenever needed. And, just to add a little, thanks to all who judge and go out of their way to do it. Needless to say, it takes a heck of a lot more volunteers to put on a trial than it does judges. Not taking away from what they do but, the simple fact is, the people on the ground working 12-14 hours a day don't get taken out to dinner, don't get expenses paid, don't get gas money etc, etc....for putting on a trial/test.


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## Barry (Dec 11, 2007)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I should have said, "the most dogs" Ted..... not the "most trials"...
> 
> Pro's don't have time to help the volunteers when they have over 10 dogs to run in multiple stakes. I have seen some pro's bring along their helpers and/or clients that have dogs running on their truck but, that isn't often and it isn't the norm.....that's a whole different topic but, the jist of what I was getting at... without starting a fist fight about it....
> 
> ...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Barry said:


> Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:
> 
> 
> > I should have said, "the most dogs" Ted..... not the "most trials"...
> ...


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I'm not taking anything away from what judges do just saying that for every judge, there are a lot of people who are not in the spotlight that do a ton of work.
> 
> .


You have a very funny concept of "spotlight." There is no one more invisible at a FT than a judge whose stake is finished.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> It is selfless work. That is all I'm saying. The folks who work to put on trials/tests do it for the sport..


Yes, and if you read my post, most of the FT competitors in Colorado

1. Run dogs;
2. Put on trials; and
3. Judge

Ted


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Yes, and if you read my post, most of the FT competitors in Colorado
> 
> 1. Run dogs;
> 2. Put on trials; and
> ...


Not sure what point you are trying to make either. For the Rocky MT. Trial last year you had 128 entries and 5 volunteers listed....not a real high %...


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Not sure what point you are trying to make either. For the Rocky MT. Trial last year you had 128 entries and 5 volunteers listed....not a real high %...


My points are these:

1. The people in my club, Rocky Mountain, and in the region, who run dogs, also put on trials - contrary to your contention
2. Those people, who run dogs AND put on trials, also Judge - contrary to your assertions
3. Your argument that people who run dogs do not pitch in does not apply in Colorado

That fact EE does not show volunteers does not change points 1-3 above

I don't know why you insist on making conclusions about areas of the country about which you are not knowledgeable

Ted


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> Really!!! Let me get this straight. I travel 500 miles, spend five days of my life live in a crappy motel, sit in the rain or the blistering heat, listen to a lot of people complain so a few of you can feel good that you put on a trial!!!


This comment got me to thinking about the past - should one expect a retriever club to treat someone different because they are the judge than that judge treats themselves as a competitor? Most folks stay in motels that are dog friendly, have good airing close by, & roll up the sidewalks at 9 PM. We have stayed in 2 memorable motels for a short night only twice in the field trial career.

1st was in Mt Home ID after the '92 Jackson Hole trial - New Sleep Inn - walk in & ask what the most reasonably priced room was - $25 - so took it as it was the last room - turned out to be PALATIAL - too bad we had to get up @ 0530 the next morning to hit the road. An added bonus was a long conversation with Greg McDaniel in the restaurant next door. As you know a conversation with Greg involved a lot of listening which was fine by us as Greg was a very interesting person!

The next was in Hillsboro OR, again very nice but a field trial night is very short & no open restaurant next door at 0530. That's the extent of the upscale accommodations - the rest were whatever is available that is dog friendly as long as it's clean - fine. 

But in '92 we ventured into Lean Mac's home grounds & stayed in a 1 year old Travelodge in Kamloops - us & the cockroaches. Managed to come home with a blue & a green that should have been more ;-), & no cockroaches . All our travels are now with a travel trailer & we're in control of cleanliness.

As for food - the only thing I expect of a club is lunch - the rest is on me except for a judge's dinner which I believe you owe to the club to attend. I also paid for my own drinks when on our company's tab. Memorable places to eat - The little restaurant north of Nine Pipes lodge for about 3 years in the mid 90's, Dan & Mary's lunch wagon, the store in Duvall did our lunches for about 5 years from their deli, the ladies @ Ft Lewis in the 60's, 70's, 80's - It's not like the meals for the threshing crew or the pan fried chicken in southern restaurants .

As for the judging - the long ride home is tempered with the thought that you do not have to apologize for finding the best dogs that weekend by thoroughly testing them & letting the chips fall where they may. Which is a thought not every judge is entitled to .


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> My points are these:
> 
> 1. The people in my club, Rocky Mountain, and in the region, who run dogs, also put on trials - contrary to your contention
> 2. Those people, who run dogs AND put on trials, also Judge - contrary to your assertions
> ...


I didn't notice Paul making any conclusions - that you are so sensitive & feel the need to toot your horn carries a different message to most folks.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> The people who run dogs the most usually also have the least amount of time to help put on a test/trial.


Marvin

Maybe you need to read what Happy writes before you post.

And remind us,

When was the last time you judged or put on a trial?


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> My points are these:
> 
> 1. The people in my club, Rocky Mountain, and in the region, who run dogs, also put on trials - contrary to your contention
> 2. Those people, who run dogs AND put on trials, also Judge - contrary to your assertions
> ...


I fail to see where I ever suggested what you are saying is not true. You're making up your own story here and only you are following it at this point.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> The people who run dogs the most usually also have the least amount of time to help put on a test/trial.


Perhaps, like Marvin, you need to review your previous post


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I did a search on EE Ted. You have entered , by their count, close to 1000 stakes over the period of time recorded there......

Marvin on the other hand has less than 50

Which one of you should do more of the heavy lifting

just sayin'

john


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> [SIZE=" There is no one more invisible at a FT than a judge whose stake is finished. [/SIZE]


Now that is funny. 

You guys don't need to squabble over split hairs. Clubs are thankful there are those who will judge their events. Clubs are thankful when they can get enough volunteers to help put one on. Clubs always need more new people to help because there are those who are getting burned out.

Every region has its workers and non-workers. If you are a worker, you know who the non-workers are.

Same with judging. There are those who "talk" judging and complain about judging or judges, but don't judge. Those who do judge, know who they are. 

A few clicks on AKC's judging directory (see Ted's earlier post for the link) and anyone can find out how many times someone has judged, what they judged and where, when they last judged, and whether they have any future assignments to judge. 

Helen


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

helencalif said:


> and whether they have any future assignments to judge.


future assignments are not accurate, the only ones which appear are for those clubs who have submitted event applications, many of us have judging commitments 3-5 years in the future for which no event application has been filed


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

EdA said:


> future assignments are not accurate, the only ones which appear are for those clubs who have submitted event applications, many of us have judging commitments 3-5 years in the future for which no event application has been filed


Ed,

You are correct. I should have stated that in my post. 

Helen


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> When was the last time you judged or put on a trial?


I do not feel any need to justify, especially to you, my contribution to this sport . Nor do I believe that a person only contributes by judging or running a club, which I have done. I was always there when asked, many times when not asked to lend a helping hand. Grabbing a heavy sack of birds from the lady marshal to haul to the throwers when younger more able folks, much like yourself, were back in the gallery avoiding that task. 

Would I have judged more if asked - Yes - I did not feel the need to be in front of an audience so waited until asked. I do not believe being a judge is the end all of accomplishments, but I do believe in having a thorough knowledge of the sport including the rule book before criticizing. 

I know you place great significance in the opinions of your friend from this area - those of us who live here know where she is residing. That you consider/ed her a reliable source says much about your mind set. Long before either of you were involved myself & my family made significant contributions. We felt no need to chronicle that contribution as many others were doing somewhat similar contributions. I'm old enough that when I worked at Climax, Coors was considered a local beer, unfit to drink except in an emergency .


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Marvin

Thanks for the non-answer

Ted


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> We felt no need to chronicle that contribution as many others were doing somewhat similar contributions.
> 
> 
> > ding!


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

When I read these threads I keep hearing that tune...

"the road goes on forever, and the party never ends.."

It's the same song and dance over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, infinity...

As much time that is wasted writing about who does what, what does who, what should be done, what is done that should, blah blah blah...

The fact still remains and will always remain, some do and some don't in all aspects of life.

Unfortunately, in the dog scene, success can come from doing something else to earn the finances necessary to do in the dog game.

It's a ribbon, it's a point, it's qualifying...

Those that hang their hat on the success tree of life on that will never get it.

I ran a dog, I took some...I gave some. Maybe less than others, maybe more than others.

At the end of the day, if it ain't good enough for some folks...hold your own stickin' event and invite who you want. Invite the 10 best judges, workers, handlers, whoever you want.

Give out your own ribbons and celebrate how you see fit. Go home and be proud you won whatever it is you won, claim your the greatest "giver backer" there ever was. Make lists with 1,2,3's on what folks do what for whatever club.

None of it matters.

It's a game...

Where people spend lots of money, time, and effort.

Enjoy it for what it is.

If not, get out.

It's that easy.

Last but not least, read my sig line (that's been up for a long time) if you really want an accurate perspective on the game.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

One day when I hit the LOTTO, I plan to put up a web site that tracks the efforts of all those 'Winger/Bird Thrower's" out there!! No, you don't get to hold a position/title.. But I will be there for you and make sure you get as much credit as those who are listed in the premium!!!! 

Then one day you'll be able to look them in the eye and say "I've thrown your dogs 20 birds this year, you aint tossed a single one to mine, what's up with that??".


But the odds of that happening are not likely, least not anytime soon,,, Hang in there!!


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> When I read these threads I keep hearing that tune...


....same song second verse, couldn't be better gotta be worse, eh?

You can stay away for awhile but you just can't help yourself, you have to peek......:wink:.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Ken Guthrie said:


> When I read these threads I keep hearing that tune...
> 
> "the road goes on forever, and the party never ends.."
> 
> ...


I think you are right on with this whole post, enjoy it for what it is or try another sport. If a guy runs dogs for decades and gives nothing back to the sport but his entry fees, not only does it not bug me a bit, I really don't even notice it. Field trials are like everything else in life, its the 80/20 rule, where 80% of the work is performed by 20% of the people. Most times I try to be in the 20%, sometimes I'm not, but I never hold a grudge against the 80%. It has been my experience that most clubs depend on their local help and it is the same few people year after year, marshalling, running birds, setting up and all the other things that need to be done. I really don't know what this fight is about, the folks Ted mentioned work their butts off as do those guys in Washington State, as I presume everywhere else field trials are run.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> ....same song second verse, couldn't be better gotta be worse, eh?
> 
> You can stay away for awhile but you just can't help yourself, you have to peek......:wink:.


I won't lie...

I miss running that water blind in training on good weather days like we are having.

I miss the taste of that beer after a long day of training. Why does it taste better?

I miss that feeling while waiting in the holding blind just knowing we are going to stomp the test.

I miss a chilly morning, dew on the ground, just watching your dog stretch out when you first get to the grounds.

I come back on here to see who is sharing those same feelings. Who is excited about their new young propect. Who's running the next Pogo. 

But it's the same old stuff from years ago.

Like so many before me have gone through, I guess these feelings become more and more vivid when your once invincible warrior is a mere shadow of what he used to be.

It just seems that there is so much more to it than what is constantly discussed with no real resolution.

See you soon, I need heartworm pills.;-)


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Who's running the next Pogo.


My 12 month old won't be..... But man, lemme tell ya 'bout this 3 month old little Juicer I got...........

;-)


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I won't lie...
> 
> I miss running that water blind in training on good weather days like we are having.
> 
> ...


Roy Gonia said to me many moons ago - when you no longer have the knot in your stomach as you're going to the line, it's time to hang it up. Apparently your emotions are saying "You'll be back". A positive for the sport . I've got one of those too, their faith in you shows stronger as they get older.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Howard N said:


> My 12 month old won't be..... But man, lemme tell ya 'bout this 3 month old little Juicer I got...........
> ;-)


Howard,
I don't want to hear about the little Juicer you got. I am in mourning. Our breeding did not take. If I had a crystal ball to tell me our breeding would be a no-go, I would have been standing in line for one of your little Juicers. 

What did you keep... male or female? 

Helen


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

JusticeDog said:


> even though they aren't a good judge, clubs grab them because they are a body that can hold the book. Even they don't deserve to be thrown under the bus, but clubs need to stop asking those people to judge. they need to start developing new people to take over in the years to come. A succession plan so to speak. Otherwise, it's all just rhetoric.


Susan - you are obviously a bright person, just who should be thrown under the bus for inviting an obviously not good judge to carry the book? 

Many years back when I was Prez of a local retriever club, brought in were some of the finest judges in the land by my choice. Lanse Brown, George Wilson, Ed Aycock, John Parrott, Yvonne Hays, Elaine Klicker were all here & performed well . Airfares were so reasonable that was a cost that did not need to be factored in . Things ran smoothly though there was more than a little interference. When the time came for the nominating committee to convene I was left off the committee though past practice had the outgoing prez on the committee by the incoming prez for 2 reasons. 1st was my support for the Owner Handler Amateur & 2nd was my support for bringing in new people to the board so they could witness first hand the traditions & responsibilities that go with the sport before others chose to retire from the board. Human nature has a habit of getting in the way of good management , that's the way it is. Though not all board members supported the action the majority did & collectively at the time there was none on the board with less than 10 years as active successful trialers, but we also had some who were over the 30 year mark. I resigned from the club rather than accept their obvious diss.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

> But man, lemme tell ya 'bout this 3 month old little Juicer I got...........
> 
> ;-)


Preach it Howard!!


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## twmoore (Sep 15, 2009)

Speaking of judging, how do I get the judges test so I can join this elite group?


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## davewolfe (Mar 22, 2010)

After training tonite, I was talking to one buddies. He ran a senior test this weekend at the end of the test only him and another friend and the pros passed the test. These two friends have 20 years experance training dogs. All the other amature were sent home packing. Where is there room for new persons get started in this game. Where can we get new people to help and judge.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

davewolfe said:


> After training tonite, I was talking to one buddies. He ran a senior test this weekend at the end of the test only him and another friend and the pros passed the test. These two friends have 20 years experance training dogs. All the other amature were sent home packing. Where is there room for new persons get started in this game. Where can we get new people to help and judge.


I started in juniors and even failing my first testand I was still hooked .I think juniors is over looked by a lot of the (senior to the sports ) because the Sh title or UKC equivelent is where dogs are started to be evaluated from and JH is not something that most trainers are concerned with .
As a newbie to the games compared to a lot of trainers its a lot of NEW sacrifice and dedication not only for the guy at the line but for his immediate family ,compared the family's that are already accustom to the dedication needed to achieve even the lower stakes ribbons. J.M. 02


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

davewolfe said:


> After training tonite, I was talking to one buddies. He ran a senior test this weekend at the end of the test only him and another friend and the pros passed the test. These two friends have 20 years experance training dogs. *All the other amature were sent home packing. Where is there room for new persons get started in this game*. Where can we get new people to help and judge.


I'm not sure I understand the gist of your comments.  Are you looking for a sport where a new person, just getting started can expect to be successful right away??

Most endeavors that are very rewarding, involve some challenge, hard work, and dedication and that means it takes time and experience. Most people that are at the top of anything, started at the bottom.;-)

JS


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## BuddyJ (Apr 22, 2011)

JS I am on the same page with you, a lot of people seem to think when you enter your dog you should automatically get a pass and that shouldn't be. There is a standard your dog has to meet to get a pass whether it be junior, senior, or master and judges need to stand their ground and be sure dogs meet this standard. Otherwise the pride and prestige of owning a titled dog will be undermined and have little or no value and the negative consequences of that would be detrimental to our sport. Just my humble opinion of course.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

davewolfe said:


> After training tonite, I was talking to one buddies. He ran a senior test this weekend at the end of the test only him and another friend and the pros passed the test. These two friends have 20 years experance training dogs. All the other amature were sent home packing. Where is there room for new persons get started in this game. Where can we get new people to help and judge.


What makes you think the "ams" were not treated fairly? Could it have been a weak flight of dogs? I have judged the same test over 2 days and had 23/30 pass the first day, and 9/30 the second. A different flight of dogs makes a big difference.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Bad generalization coming here, but many ams just don't know the standard and hence fail to train to it. 
Just because the dog can do Sr. level work in a training situation does not necessarily mean he will do it on test day. If he is not doing close to Master work in training, it is a good bet he will struggle on the weekend.
JMHO
MP


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