# HRCH VS MH Titles



## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Are both these titles pretty equal ?

Thanks


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Very different games and skills being tested

/paul


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Very different games and skills being tested
> 
> /paul


How's that, aren't they both the highest "Hunt" test titles given by UKC & AKC


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

pass the popcorn, please.....-Paul


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Paul I'll take some popcorn. 

Just enjoy working with your dog in any venue.


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

Yes, they are the top title of the week-end events for each. However, the test requirements and running rules are different enough that they really are two different venues.

Eric


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

They are both fun.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

43x said:


> How's that, aren't they both the highest "Hunt" test titles given by UKC & AKC


Yes they are. The rules, standards and tests are much different though. AKC is much more about the dog than the handler 80/20 or so. HRC is more 50/50 dog/handler scoring. 

/Paul


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

This pot would be so easy to stir. 
We don't have hrc test around here. But I am going to run some eventually.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Neither takes as much dog to get as a MHR ;-)

So only just joking, all THREE tests are the top of different venues. A dog that can pass one, likely with some training specific ffor the venue could pass the other two. A dog with all three is pretty special.

Well really a dog with any of them is pretty special


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

I believe Paul Young has all three plus QAA. Special dog and Special trainer.


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## ssinnaeve (Dec 15, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Yes they are. The rules, standards and tests are much different though. AKC is much more about the dog than the handler 80/20 or so. HRC is more 50/50 dog/handler scoring.
> 
> /Paul


I don't know anywhere in the HRC rulebook that tells the judge to score the handler? Please explain!


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks for the replies . I was told that they use flyers in the AKC Master Hunt test, I went to the AKC site and can not find where it states the use of flyers ?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

43x said:


> Thanks for the replies . I was told that they use flyers in the AKC Master Hunt test, I went to the AKC site and can not find where it states the use of flyers ?


Depends on your area but I don't know of many AKC MH tests that don't have a flyer in at least one series, if not more. Dog really needs to be steady on honor as well as at the line. You cannot talk to your dog at the line in AKC like you can HRC, nor is there a controlled break allowed in AKC MH. Flyers are a pretty big deal in a dog's steadiness, especially when they are hot and the honor or working dog is remote. I think they also play a big part in marks, nothing like a wiper bird in a triple or on a walkup zooming out of nowhere. Or blinds, pull off a flyer and run a blind. Yep, flyers definitely play a part in AKC MH tests.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Depends on your area but I don't know of many AKC MH tests that don't have a flyer in at least one series, if not more. Dog really needs to be steady on honor as well as at the line. You cannot talk to your dog at the line in AKC like you can HRC, nor is there a controlled break allowed in AKC MH. Flyers are a pretty big deal in a dog's steadiness, especially when they are hot and the honor or working dog is remote. I think they also play a big part in marks, nothing like a wiper bird in a triple or on a walkup zooming out of nowhere. Or blinds, pull off a flyer and run a blind. Yep, flyers definitely play a part in AKC MH tests.


Can tell me in the AKC rules book ( page number) where they discuss flyers and how they are used ?

Thanks


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

43x said:


> Can tell me in the AKC rules book ( page number) where they discuss flyers and how they are used ?
> 
> Thanks


There's nothing in the rules that says flyers have to be used, only that 2 live birds per entry must be made available at all test levels. The rules don't discuss the use of flyers specifically as to where, when, how to use them.


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## torrentduck (Jul 27, 2009)

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned, but is being asked in a few of the posts (HRC judging the handler) is gun handling in HRC. This is a HUGE difference...you can have a great dog, but put the gun back with the chamber closed and the safety off...your going home without a ribbon.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> There's nothing in the rules that says flyers have to be used, only that 2 live birds per entry must be made available at all test levels. The rules don't discuss the use of flyers specifically as to where, when, how to use them.


Well I found info on flyers, AKC Hunt test rules 

Chapter 3

Section 2. Game. Pheasants and/or ducks and/or
chukars may be used in AKC-licensed or member club
Hunting Tests, as may any other species of game bird
that might be unique to a specific region. Clubs shall
specify in the premium list the exact species of birds to
be used in their hunting tests.
A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all test
levels.
No live bird, or any species of fowl, shall be used in a
test while under any form of restraint or physical impairment at any sanctioned, licensed, or member club event
for Retrievers.


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## Nate L (Jul 21, 2008)

limiman12 said:


> Neither takes as much dog to get as a MHR ;-)
> 
> What's MHR? NAHRA?


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

Every hunt test i have been to. They always have at least 2 flyers in the master. Heck i have even had 2 flyers in the seniors to.

we dont have HRC test around here. Just akc test. I would love to try HRC test sometime. I really wish AKC would show HRC titles on the pedigree. but how well i understand why they dont.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Given that the lower level requirements were in place (AKC Senior title), an MH title could theoritically be earned in five weekends (thirty days) with five passes (fifteen series). 

Given that the same dog had 60 total test points recorded in HRC, an HRC Finished title could be accomplished in two weekends (nine days) with four passes (eight series). 

I run both venues and given the above, it is obvious AKC is more fun.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

I know one difference hrc shots are from the line and you can talk to you dog while marks are going off. Akc shots could be from field or the line and you cant talk to your dog until the judge releases you. 
I heard On marks hrc will judge your dog to the area of the fall. Once the dog is in the area of fall you can handle your dog to the bird and doesn't count as a handle because the dog is in the area of the fall. Someone correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood 
I know akc you are judged to the mark. Most of the time in master you get 1 handle in 3 series of marks. If you handle twice most of the time you are done. There is nothing in the rules about it but that is pretty much how it is.
How many series of marks are in hrc. Akc will have 3 series of marks.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Chasidy Roberts said:


> Every hunt test i have been to. They always have at least 2 flyers in the master. Heck i have even had 2 flyers in the seniors to.
> 
> we dont have HRC test around here. Just akc test. I would love to try HRC test sometime. I really wish AKC would show HRC titles on the pedigree. but how well i understand why they dont.


Chasidy
You do have HRC tests in your area, send me a PM for more information.


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

j towne said:


> I know one difference hrc shots are from the line and you can talk to you dog while marks are going off. Akc shots could be from field or the line and you cant talk to your dog until the judge releases you.
> I heard On marks hrc will judge your dog to the area of the fall. Once the dog is in the area of fall you can handle your dog to the bird and doesn't count as a handle because the dog is in the area of the fall. Someone correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood
> I know akc you are judged to the mark. Most of the time in master you get 1 handle in 3 series of marks. If you handle twice most of the time you are done. There is nothing in the rules about it but that is pretty much how it is.
> How many series of marks are in hrc. Akc will have 3 series of marks.


yes you can handle to the bird when your dog is in the area of the fall if you start to handle you must to the bird and you are judged on control also it's tricky to know where the fall area is if you handle too soon than you are charged like your dog missed the mark which is a mark down the same applies if you handle too late and your dog leaves the fall area


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> I heard On marks hrc will judge your dog to the area of the fall. Once the dog is in the area of fall you can handle your dog to the bird and doesn't count as a handle because the dog is in the area of the fall. Someone correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood
> I know akc you are judged to the mark. *Most of the time in master you get 1 handle in 3 series of marks. If you handle twice most of the time you are done.* There is nothing in the rules about it but that is pretty much how it is.



would you feel good about passing a Master test if you HAD to handle on 2 marks, when it was a marking test? Or is picken up the chickens good enough?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

ssinnaeve said:


> I don't know anywhere in the HRC rulebook that tells the judge to score the handler? Please explain!


The handler has much more opportunity to cause failure based on pure handling than in akc

/Paul


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

Nate L said:


> limiman12 said:
> 
> 
> > Neither takes as much dog to get as a MHR ;-)
> ...


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> would you feel good about passing a Master test if you HAD to handle on 2 marks, when it was a marking test? Or is picken up the chickens good enough?


That would depend on the test and depend on the circumstances.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

HRC
Honor dog and handler can be part of the working dogs test.

Honor dog handler can be shooting a designated mark of a triple, and that handlers dog better not move. Some tests ive run, the honor dog has picked up the working dogs Go bird.

A lot of calling from the line, both from the working handler and the Honor dogs handler.

Judges can and do designate order of pick up. (selection)

Flyers seldom used. (at least in my region~~Shame)

You can talk to the dog while the marks are being thrown.

While it is true that you can handel in the area of fall, at least in Finished, you better not make it a habit.

Handlers shoot real guns, and are strictly judged on gun safty.

All BB's and wingers are hidden by rule.

Seldom there are attention getting calls or shots from the winger stations.
(finished, seasoned)

Dog must learn to mark off the end of the gun.(swing with the gun)

There are no designated paths or alleys to the blinds. Good controll, and Progres stowards the blind is required.

1 land series multiple marks with a blind.
1 Water series multiple marks with a water blind.
Diversion bird must be incorporated in one of the series. Can be thrown on the return from ANY retrieve. A switch on the diversion is a failer in Finished.
Honor is required on 1 or both of the series.

To get the Title, you must accumulate 100 pts.
40 of which can come from Seasoned.
A finished pass is equivelent to 15 points.

Hope I didnt ferget something.

Gooser


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Hookset said:


> That would depend on the test and depend on the circumstances.


Part one or part two?


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> The handler has much more opportunity to cause failure based on pure handling than in akc
> 
> /Paul


How so? 

HRC versus AKC or either versus anything else is an ignorant arguement. Run the venue you like and have fun with it. If you like more than one venue, run more than one and have fun with it. Seems pretty simple.


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

43x said:


> Thanks for the replies . I was told that they use flyers in the AKC Master Hunt test, I went to the AKC site and can not find where it states the use of flyers ?


I've never seen a Master test where at least one flyer wasn't thrown. While flyers aren't commen in HRC finished tests, it is allowed to throw flyers. I have seen several flyers thrown in HRC finished tests and know of at least one club who strongly suggests to the judges that a flyer be thrown.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Troy B said:


> How so?
> 
> HRC versus AKC or either versus anything else is an ignorant arguement. Run the venue you like and have fun with it. If you like more than one venue, run more than one and have fun with it. Seems pretty simple.


 
I will volunteer to answer for Paul.

Hrc judges can designate order of pick up. Nerves can playa role with handlers, and if you forget what bird must be picked up in what order, your done.


Also, gun safty/handling. Gun must be pointed in a safe direction at all times, must be placed back in the gun rack, with a common courtesy claim to the judges of "action open, safty on."
Failer to do this will get you DQ'd.

You are instructed at the begging of each test as to how many shells to load, and possibly to keep 1 in your pocket for the diversion bird. I have seen handlers scrambling around to load the shell for the diversion, and the mix up cause distraction for the dog on its return, A switch on the diversion in Finished is a failer.

Sometimes the Honor dog will be part of the working dogs test. I have run tests where the honor dog picks up the working dogs go bird. A brain fart from the working dogs handler to send their dog on that bird, COULD result in a failer.

Gooser


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Well most know where I stand  I do run both and even dabble in NAHRA as my local club is a NAHRA club. I have the luxury of being able to run 4 different venues, HRC HT, AKC HT, NAHRA HT and some good FT. 

I have fun at all of them. I have been to a few AKC tests that the people need to learn how to have fun....  of course we showed them !


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> I will volunteer to answer for Paul.
> 
> Hrc judges can designate order of pick up. Nerves can playa role with handlers, and if you forget what bird must be picked up in what order, your done.
> 
> ...


Hardly a 50/50 split though. Handlers have done their dogs more harm in good in both HRC and AKC venues.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Troy B said:


> Hardly a 50/50 split though. Handlers have done their dogs more harm in good in both HRC and AKC venues.


Yep, but out of the 10+ years of running multiple dogs at all levels of AKC HT, I've never yet been DQ'd as a handler for something I did. I've let my dogs down, done stupid handler errors, got some talkin' to's, but nothing that got ME booted right then and there. Ran one Seasoned test in my life, dog did great, I didn't shoulder the gun high enough apparently and that was that. There was far more stuff for a handler to do & get wrong than for the dog to fail, in my first and last HRC test experience, IMO. Not saying one is better or worse, I congratulate anyone who runs their dog in anything, just agreeing that there seemed more potential for handlers to DQ themselves vs the dog work in HRC than AKC, viewed from one who ventured over from AKC very briefly.


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## j towne (Jul 27, 2006)

Todd Caswell said:


> would you feel good about passing a Master test if you HAD to handle on 2 marks, when it was a marking test? Or is picken up the chickens good enough?


If 2 series were triples and 1 series was a quad you would still have 80 percent on marking so yea I would be fine with that. 
Just in case you were wondering my dog finished his master title passing 4 master test in a row and 11 straight series without handling on any marks.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I found that getting the MH title was more technically difficult (especially how the blinds are judged), and HRC was a lot more fun. I am proud of both titles. My dog could care less.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

j towne said:


> If 2 series were triples and 1 series was a quad you would still have 80 percent on marking so yea I would be fine with that.
> Just in case you were wondering my dog finished his master title passing 4 master test in a row and 11 straight series without handling on any marks.


Nope wasn't wondering at all but thanks for the heads up and congratulations. In your example above what about the other marks that you didn't handle on? What if they were so so does your 80% still stand? Never judged on percentages.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I've run 'em all (13 NAHRA MHR's, 5 UH-HRCHs, 1 AKC MH, & some FT greenies.)

On any given weekend, the judging is more important to me than the game. That is, are the tests sound, fair and perhaps even interesting... 

Having said that, my order of preference used to be as above, but it's turning more toward just training and not not so much toward games or "popcorn" moments where someone who likes one game slams another.


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## tracyw (Aug 28, 2008)

I have played both games and my initial answer was...I think it was harder to get my MH than my HRCH but I was a COMPLETE newbie when I started playing both games. The stress of the callbacks after each series with AKC (HRC lets you play both series even if you messed up) can mess with a newbie's head. Holding it together for the third series (and wondering if you need to reserve that hotel room another night!) was also stressful. The LOUD popper in the field makes it almost impossible for your dog not to see a mark.

On the other hand I have to remember back to those HRC series where I had 5 poppers in my pocket as I approached the bucket! If your gun jams or you are not thinking about the diversion shot, you have to think and focus all of the time! Also, more control from the holding blind to the line is expected with HRC. I love being able to quietly talk to my dog...more like real hunting!

To me, the HRC people have more fun and are just a bit friendlier. I love their raffles and tailgate parties! They also encourage kids into the sport with lots of youth events and activities.

So my answer is that both venues are awesome and dogs with either title should be admired and respected for their work! I love this sport!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Troy B said:


> Hardly a 50/50 split though. Handlers have done their dogs more harm in good in both HRC and AKC venues.



Well I disagree. People can be dropped for not saying open safe on the gun handling. You are allowed to talk to the dog during marking series. Scoring of marks changes to a blind in some scenarios. More emphasis on the clothing in hrc. The test setup basically requires shorter marks and marking off the gun. Handler has to shoot the birds and blinds. All of these things pit more emphasis on the handler and less on the dog owning the work. 

Not saying one is better, just different. I will ignore you calling me ignorant but remind you that there may be a sub forum for folks like you in the future.

/paul


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

j towne said:


> Most of the time in master you get 1 handle in 3 series of marks. If you handle twice most of the time you are done. There is nothing in the rules about it but that is pretty much how it is.


1.That was the way it was for every AKC test I ran. Sure there are exceptions, but I never encountered one.

2. I recall several occasions handlers were dropped for telling their dogs to HEAL before the judges called DOG.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Keith said this!
*On any given weekend, the judging is more important to me than the game. That is, are the tests sound, fair and perhaps even interesting... 

Having said that, my order of preference used to be as above, but it's turning more toward just training and not not so much toward games or "popcorn" moments where someone who likes one game slams another.*

*I really agree with this.*

I am to this point also. I really enjoy a good trainig day. The discussions, the comraderi, the help.

I also like to evaluate Judges tests, and try to figgure out what they are really looking for.

Gooser


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Keith said this!
> *On any given weekend, the judging is more important to me than the game. That is, are the tests sound, fair and perhaps even interesting...
> 
> Having said that, my order of preference used to be as above, but it's turning more toward just training and not not so much toward games or "popcorn" moments where someone who likes one game slams another.*
> ...


The dogs and training are the ultimate aspect of satisfaction for me. The various tests/trials are just a place to see how well training is going. I can't tell you how many times I've been happier about a dog that failed a test than a dog that passed a test because the dog that failed demonstrated progress in an area of training that we have been focused on. 

Its always about the dog in front of you and never about the people behind you....

/Paul


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I never worry about the dog in front, the dog behind nor the people, just the little guy at my side! I have enjoyed HRC immensely and am looking forward to participating in MH events. Interesting comments.


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## Troy B (May 25, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well I disagree. People can be dropped for not saying open safe on the gun handling. You are allowed to talk to the dog during marking series. Scoring of marks changes to a blind in some scenarios. More emphasis on the clothing in hrc. The test setup basically requires shorter marks and marking off the gun. Handler has to shoot the birds and blinds. All of these things pit more emphasis on the handler and less on the dog owning the work.
> 
> Not saying one is better, just different. I will ignore you calling me ignorant but remind you that there may be a sub forum for folks like you in the future.
> 
> /paul


I didn't call you ignorant, I'll ignore attempt your pick at a fight. Seen it before, I'm not in that big a need for entertainment.

Even with what you describe it's hardly 50/50. You can't be failed for not saying "safe and open", it's not in the rule book. Can you not have issues if you talk to your dog in AKC before the dog is released by the judges?


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

The big difference is the third series. Makes the AKC test 50% harder to pass IMO.


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## kimsmith (Mar 30, 2003)

Nate when the hunt test game started NAHRA and HRC started with Hunt Test to help out the every day hunter that didn't want to run Field Trails. AKC started their Hunt test program about 1 year latter and for some reason not sure why but NAHRA events didn't grow like HRC and AKC. I might be wrong but AKC joined forces with NAHRA at the beginning but at some point AKC when out on there own....

First off there isn't an HRC test around that you can pass if you handle on 2 birds. You are very confused on that idea, in HRC if a dog is hunting the area and isn't leaving the area but needs some help in some cases this isn't considered a handle. 90% of the time if you handle on 2 birds you are out. I've passed many AKC Master test with 2 handles because not ever handle is the same.

Master Hunter test are harder because you have to pass 3 series, but HRC can be hard on the handler and the dog because of the gun. Trying to shoot the birds, watch your dog and make sure you keep you gun safe at the same time is hard for new handlers, but HRC is more about trying to keep hunt test more realistic. Not saying anything is wrong with the AKC program because I run both and enjoy both but how many people hunt with someone else shooting your birds from stations in the field. 

Run all 3 if you can and enjoy your day in the field with your dog, hopefully you will get hooked like many others on this forum.......


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

I looked back over the past 5 years and average 16 Week end Hunt Tests split almost 50/50 between AKC Master and HRC Finished. Run 120 AKC series (3 series x 40 tests) and 160 HRC series ( 40 WE x 2 tests x series) 

The big difference is the third series. Makes the AKC test 50% harder to pass IMO. 

Because of the wide variation grounds, weather etc. hard to make a comparison between the two. Shooting from the line ,flyers etc are handled by most Master of Finished dogs. Go have fun ,they are both great games. And one is no better than the other.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

If you compare series over a weekend then HRC has more. Two finished tests over a weekene equals 4 series. Were a typical Master is one test per weekend= 3 series. Granted you have two shots at HRC to get it right in a weekend in Master it is only one test.
I like them both and they both have their place in the dog games. Does it really matter which one is more difficult? Go run a FT if you want to know what is difficult.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

In HRC you are not going to be failed for not saying "open & on". You will be disqualified for setting the gun down with the breech closed and safety off (unsafe gun). HRC is the ONLY organization that shots the gun, therefore gun safety is paramount. I have never run AKC HT, but from what I read hear it sounds like in HRC it's more of a dog/handler TEAM. Which is what it should be to have a good hunting companion (which is HRC's goal). Now don't get me wrong, I am not knocking AKC, though there are things done there I think are absolutely ridiculous. I am sure it goes both ways. I think the best answer is, they are 2 different venues with different rules & requirements. Try them both and see what you like. You don't have to choose between the 2, you may want to run both.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well I disagree. People can be dropped for not saying open safe on the gun handling. You are allowed to talk to the dog during marking series. Scoring of marks changes to a blind in some scenarios. More emphasis on the clothing in hrc. The test setup basically requires shorter marks and marking off the gun. Handler has to shoot the birds and blinds. All of these things pit more emphasis on the handler and less on the dog owning the work.
> 
> Not saying one is better, just different. I will ignore you calling me ignorant but remind you that there may be a sub forum for folks like you in the future.
> 
> /paul


Paul, Unless this is a typo on being dropped for not saying open and on, then I have to say that is not correct. The only thing you have to do is make sure the gun is put back in the rack with the safety on and the action open. If the action is open and the safety is off you will get a gun safety warning, same as the safety on action open. Must judges will remind you to check you gun if they see it in the rack unsafe. Safety off action closed and put in the rack then you will be DQ'd


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