# Treat training pros and cons



## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

The video link below is of Billy (Cosmo x Fen Wizard daughter) learning sit means sit. Billy is 3.5 months old. This is Billy's first lesson at sit means sit so he is less than perfect but I think he did well for his first lesson. He does sit and wait for his dinner until given the OK.
My focus here is treat training. I am not a big fan of treat training but I have seen pups with excellent response to treat training so I thought I would try and implement treats a little more. A recent video of Wayne and Rowdy as a puppy learning heel and sit with treats got me to thinking. I know this method came from Jackie Merten's video and also have seen Pat Nolan doing it. Both are trainers with great success.
With that being said this is purely my opinion and observations. Although I do use treats at times I have come to the conclusion that I still don't care for treat training. When I do use treats I teach a command and then treat to reward the proper response. In the above mentioned videos the treat is used to LURE the pup into the desired response. I cant argue with success but this just doesn't sit right with me. Just seems to me that the focus is on the treat rather than the lesson.
Another recent thread with the girl at an obedience trial with a young golden also had me thinking about this. That thread seems to have disappeared, cant find it. Anyway that pup is constantly looking up at the handler and her hands. To me this is not desirable but I do understand where and why it can be desirable.
Now getting back to Billy's video. In one short 5 minute lesson you can see his concentration on my hands. Good or bad? Personally I don't like it. You can see him as I approach watching my hand and sometimes jumping for it. You could argue that this is part of teaching patience and waiting for the treat but I don't like it. In fact jumping for the hands is something I try to discourage so why encourage it with treats. When I have clients over and they come into the yard with my dogs loose the dogs will naturally go over to check them out and the peoples response is usually to raise their hands out of reach of the dog, kids are especially bad at this. Dogs natural response is to jump at the hands.
Watch Billy at the end of the video when I try to throw him a fun bumper he is so focused on my hands that he doesn't even watch the bumper, twice and this is only with one lesson. So this was my short lived attempt at using treats to train. To me the cons out weigh the pros. Maybe I don't use the treats properly. As with every method you need to know how to use it and how to recognize proper or negative responses to get what you want. Treat training is just not for me.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbFINl-pT30&feature=share&list=UUNsjoiWjxhDt2tsedfrqyAg


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## ehf (May 13, 2010)

Steve first off I think You have a really nice little candidate for training!! This what I do. I usually use hotdogs sliced about a quarter
inch or thinner. I put 4-5 pieces in my mouth and alternate the hand I give the treat with. This way the dog don't watch You with Your hand coming out of the same pocket. Also have you thought about resistance training with a line hooked on the collar puppies learn this
really quick. And one other thing I never call a puppy to come until they have a really solid sit and no what the word means.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Just a couple of thoughts.

I find when using treats with a secondary reinforcer (the classic is a clicker, but I usually just say, "yes!" since the clicker is one more object to look after) puppies/dogs don't look at or for the source of the treat, at least not until after the secondary reinforcer.

Use of treats is a handy tool to have available. Sometimes it is the quickest, neatest solution to a problem. Right now, for example, I have a personal puppy (my first in several years!) and I am working with her on "hold." Actually I am working on getting her to let me put a dummy in her mouth. This youngster is very cooperative and agreeable in general, and has a great natural mouth. Yesterday she snagged a dummy I'd put on top of the well house, and ran around with it for fifteen minutes, maintaining a perfect hold the whole time. All good. But, this puppy resisted my placing a dummy in her mouth about as vigorously as any dog I've ever trained. No improvement in two sessions; she was just determined that her mouth is her business and she's not going to have anyone else putting stuff in it.

The next step was pretty obvious, given that she licks her feed pan for about 10 minutes after the food is all gone. I forced the dummy in her mouth, immediately said, "yes!" and took it out, then gave her an extra-delicious salmon treat. A dozen repetitions and she was readily allowing me to put the dummy in her mouth. 

With a youngster this cooperative, I would far, far rather get her past her objection gently than have major set-tos, punishment, or a protracted struggle. Now we can move on with no fallout.

Amy Dahl


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## CindyGal (Mar 6, 2012)

Steve, if you are going to use treats to train, a good skill to teach your pup is 'impulse control'.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Steve Thanks for your clip. I like the way you work with Billie. I stop with the treats and clicker after I think they have the idea then do variable reinforcement with treats. I find like you they start to look at the treat rather than what they are to be doing. IMO Working on the sit like you and walking around. I have also resorted to Hillman's way of doing marks using the kennel as home base. He is getting the idea. First we did crate games by Susan Garrett then went into Hillman's use of the crate (my variation). Not a good camera person but here is a short clip. Mickey is 13 weeks today!

[video]http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/MaryLynn72/media/MVI_0600_zpsb7909bc3.mp4.html[/video]


Cindy Gal I must try some of those exercises. Very neat. Thanks for sharing.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Steve Shaver said:


> Another recent thread with the girl at an obedience trial with a young golden also had me thinking about this. That thread seems to have disappeared, cant find it. Anyway that pup is constantly looking up at the handler and her hands. To me this is not desirable but I do understand where and why it can be desirable.


The reason you're seeing the dog look up at the handler, isn't just because there's a treat involved. In obedience training, one of the first things you train your dog, is that they must focus on you. So for instance, you work heeling on leash, where when you stop walking, the dog sits nicely in the heel position and looks up at you. Everytime you stop, the dog must sit at attention, and look up at you. In the beginning, it's easiest to get that focus with a treat. Throughout obedience, the dog is taught to do what you asked, and then focus on you for further instructions.

It's a completely different situation than hunting, where you want the dog to focus on where the bird or the dummy ends up. In obedience, the dog needs to focus on the handler after every command. Food is a really good motivator for that 

Also, when training with treats, it helps to have a little clip on the belt treat container. The dog won't watch your fingers as much that way.

With our Chessie, I do use treats to train him certain things. It's the easiest way to get his attention and help him understand what the command means. I transition away from treats and onto praise when I know he understands what I expect him to do.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

Also, as far as luring goes with treats, I have only found that to be effective the very first time or 2 when teaching a new behavior. For instance, with the "down" command, since the words don't mean much to a little puppy, saying the words and then luring the dog into the correct position by holding a treat in front of him and then moving that treat down to the floor can get the puppy to understand the command quite quickly. Once you can tell the dog knows what the command means, it gets annoying in my opinion. It seems best to move on then and treat after they perform the correct command, and not lure anymore.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Treats and clickers work fine for puppies. Helps with the transition to adult training.

/Paul


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Steve,

First off, well done on posting a video of yourself and inviting comments; not everyone has sufficient intestinal fortitude to do so. 

It may well be that treat / marker / clicker isn't for you anyway, but right now you aren't giving yourself, Billy, or the method a fair shake. When you've given it a more intensive and practiced effort and judged the results as not worthwhile, by all means walk away. Like most simple skills, it's possible to fall into the trap of thinking that it's also easy, and approach things without really thinking them through or indeed measuring the outcomes. In your case I think you are falling between two stools; not doing the treat / marker / clicker thing quite right and not being comfortable with some of the possible effects anyway. 

Forgive me if what follows sound preachy and prescriptive it's all meant to be constructive and informative. So, some observations on what I see you doing, and where you might think it worthwhile to have a ponder......

Massive overuse of the voice both for commands and praise. In the first three minutes I counted 50 verbal "sits", and any number of "good boy", "attaboys" and so on. If the dog is being rewarded for compliance with a treat, reward him with a treat, all that verbal input is just so much redundant noise and actually devaluing your voice. Within that input I didn't see any actual use of a marker instantly followed by a treat. 

When I treat a puppy for compliance, I regard that as the end of compliance. This isn't something determined by us trainers, it's decided by the dog. He doesn't have the mental ability to project forward along the lines of "I'll just sit still and then maybe I'll get a treat", all he knows is that a second ago he did indeed get a treat. So at this stage I wouldn't do as you are doing by making him sit for quite long periods almost as a test, so much as give the command then instantly mark and reward a good performance. Then let him walk a bit and repeat the exercise; that way he'll associate obeying the command with his treat which right now I don't believe he does. As Mary Lynn said, once he's got the idea, you can vary the delay in marking / treating.

By the fourth minute he was showing some confusion and a bit of avoidance behaviour; the lesson was going on too long for him. In these early days I cut it out at three minutes but have a few sessions each day. 

Body language; all that walking around was redundant and not teaching him anything, it just added extra pressure he didn't understand and isn't ready for. At the same time your only cues to him were verbal, so he didn't respond well to "here". Give him some encouragement other than voice, and instantly reward him for compliance with a treat. Amongst all the "noise" another "good boy" isn't meaning anything. I think it's too early for "here" anyway, thats why when he fells uncomfortable, he comes in to you for reassurance. I either chuck the treat to the dog, or more usually walk up to him.

There is a lot more, but I don't want to drone on all night, I just hope I've given you food for thought, and a realisation that the subject is worth further study. Like I said simple isn't a synonym of easy! 

Eug


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Great Timing is Great Training,no matter the Tool .


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## M Hassman (May 31, 2013)

I'm contemplating using treats to train my new puppy when it arrives this fall. What other good resources are out there to better understand this. The youtube video on "It's yer choice" is great. I remember seeing another one on hold but can't find it anymore.


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## PatDuck (Jan 12, 2014)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Steve,
> 
> First off, well done on posting a video of yourself and inviting comments; not everyone has sufficient intestinal fortitude to do so.
> 
> ...


I agree. IMO the dog seems confused on the timing of the treats.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I'm contemplating using treats to train my new puppy when it arrives this fall. What other good resources are out there to better understand this. The youtube video on "It's yer choice" is great. I remember seeing another one on hold but can't find it anymore.



Here are a few more idea's what you can do with soft treats. One of the reasons treats are used are,,it puts the dog in drive. and dogs learn faster and more enthusiastically in drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-2AU9qzA5k

Pete


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Pete said:


> Here are a few more idea's what you can do with soft treats. One of the reasons treats are used are,,it puts the dog in drive. and dogs learn faster and more enthusiastically in drive.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-2AU9qzA5k
> 
> Pete


That could be one of the worst training demonstrations I have ever seen. But thanks for posting.


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## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

Steve,

Thanks for posting that video. It is helpful to see others trying something new. If you have not seen them, check out some youtube videos posted by Blackfoot Kennels. I saw these from an RTF post a few months ago and they really opened my eyes to treat training. I began using treat training on my new pup a few months ago. She is now 5 1/2 months and it is the best new technique I have used. I will let out in the yard just to air, and she will run straight to her place board, sit alertly, just seeming to say "Let's train". I have found it is also a good technique in the house just to focus her natural puppy energy in a positive activity.

Two important items that others have mentioned that I also believe are key to success. Use a marker. I use a voice marker (kind of a higher pitched "good"), instead of a clicker. Instantly mark the desired behavior and at first quickly give the treat (I use cheerios). You can wean off on the treats, but I still try to mark the desired behavior each time. Teach the dog to gently take the treat. No lunging, jumping, snapping, etc. This will save your fingers later on from being rubbed raw from puppy teeth.

Treat training for me has been great addition to to OB work, put it is also a great way to teach advanced concepts to young pups when used with a place board. I keep training supplies in those Rubbermaid bins, and just use the lid as a simple, potable place board in the yard or field. I am not sure teaching advanced concepts to a pup will this will translate to easier/better training in basics and transition stages, but it can't hurt and it is a lot of fun.

I am a complete novice with treat training, but I would recommend sticking with it a little bit.

Billy is a great looking pup. Good luck.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> That could be one of the worst training demonstrations I have ever seen. But thanks for posting.


he! He! Your welcome and you made my evening.,,, by the way its not a demonstration. Just vidoeing a puppy learning some behaviors. I will admit ,,I'm not made for prime time. ,,,but that puppy might be (.
pete


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> That could be one of the worst training demonstrations I have ever seen. But thanks for posting.


Nah, that's too strong. It showed someone in transition from traditional haul and tug training towards marker / treat, and in my view jumbling them up, but there was good stuff as well as no so good. Five out of ten.

In comparison to Steve's video there was a much better connection so the dog didn't lose concentration or seem over faced. The timing / marking wasn't as crisp as it might be but it was at least present, and there was a recognition that the treat ended the behaviour. Again the handlers own body language was poor; even in these early stages if you are going to give a send out signal, do just as you intend to do in the field or at a trial, with barrack square precision just as if the corporal drill pig was on your case. Mixing up physical restraint with clicker marker seems a confusing mish-mash to me. 

Some years ago I set my stall out to show the RTF crowd that working British Labs were not as they thought, fat dozy plodders, but remarkably similar to their US / Canada working cousins, and I think I succeeded reasonably well. My new task is to demonstrate that marker / treat training is a precision tool that needs a bit of study and rigour to get it right, but is well worth the effort.

Eug


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jerry S. said:


> That could be one of the worst training demonstrations I have ever seen. But thanks for posting.


I don't think this is a fair constructive statement. Usually people post to be helpful whether one agrees or not! That is the learning experience. You choose what to accept or not! Possibly less people will post their videos.JMHO


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## Gatzby (Dec 16, 2010)

Jerry S. said:


> That could be one of the worst training demonstrations I have ever seen. But thanks for posting.[/
> 
> I almost never post due to my rather to my thin skin&#55357;&#56836;. I applaud thoughs who have the guts to. If you can be informative please do, if not leave it be. I really like that this thread has remained positive.
> Thanks everyone


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Jerry S. said:


> That could be one of the worst training demonstrations I have ever seen. But thanks for posting.


Pete is an excellent trainer and a gentleman. Much can be learned from him.

Why not specifically state what you don't like about the video?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pete is an excellent trainer and a gentleman. Much can be learned from him.
> 
> Why not specifically state what you don't like about the video?


Thanks George,,, I appreciate that. I think a lot of Colonel assessment is correct. But here is the riddle. I put half the time in training my dogs due to customers coming first,,but ALL of the started dogs I have sold have gotten great reviews,,they really like all the things they can do well at a very young age. SO My question is not so much what I am doing wrong ,but what is it i'm doing right that must be what is bringing the results. It appears to be hidden,,because even when I watch myself I think "what a goober" 
I have watched Steve's dog;s also and I will tell you there is A LOT he is doing right .
Just a little tip on video's,,we all do it wrong. A few years back I got to watch some of the top trainers on film,,guess what they also did some things what they said not to do.

pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

I don't think this is a fair constructive statement. Usually people post to be helpful whether one agrees or not! That is the learning experience. You choose what to accept or not! Possibly less people will post their videos.JMHO

I think if he told me why it sucked so bad then may be I can do better in the future if I actually agreed with his assessment.
My wife shoots these youtube video's for me for 2 reasons. 
1 So customers can see where there dog is at in training.
2 So buyers looking for started dogs can see what the dog is like. I only have a couple of video's of my personal dogs on there
but sometimes I post these to give other people idea's. Why let them sit in the archives when someone can use them to amuse me. If I was a serious youtuber I would dress more professionally so I could step in dog poop with style.
I like being critiqued over the internet.,,,,, well because for me its not only entertaining but people really do see things I can't. 
Pete


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Steve,
> 
> First off, well done on posting a video of yourself and inviting comments; not everyone has sufficient intestinal fortitude to do so.
> Thanks Col I appreciate your input but I do disagree in part.
> ...


*Hope fully future vidoes of this will be more informative but whatever the case will be done without treats. Again just not my cup of tea.*


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I really appreciate both you guys posting the videos. As the others said great info and learning to be garnered. Keep them coming. Just wish I had someone to video us. Doing them myself a catastrophe sometimes. Thanks.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

M Hassman said:


> I'm contemplating using treats to train my new puppy when it arrives this fall. What other good resources are out there to better understand this. The youtube video on "It's yer choice" is great. I remember seeing another one on hold but can't find it anymore.


A great resource is here: http://www.video.clickertraining.com/library

A great one to teach all the aspects of the formal, responsible retrieve is this one: http://www.video.clickertraining.com/CFVEX13MP02

It is a great alternative to Force Fetching your dog. This video is very well produced and delivers information very efficiently and in the right order. It's by Michelle Pouillot (sp?) who has force fetched over 300 dogs in her career since the 1970s. She now uses marker training for it. My computer is about to die and I'm not near a plug, so will leave it there...

one more thing - check out the other videos on the browse page. Lots of good ones, though you do have to pay for them. you can watch them instantly on your computer, however.


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## ChessieMom (Aug 28, 2013)

@ Steve:

*Remember this is the pups first lesson at this and as I said I exaggerated some things to get a response and hear different ideas on the method.*

*Again I disagree. I am moving too fast on progression here but again exaggerated to make a point.*

*Not only makes me think of other ways and methods but also makes me think of how counter productive I was within my own method in doing this to make a point. Point being treat training is not my cup of tea. I believe it has it's place on a limited basis and my be more beneficial in other venues but for what I do with my dogs I feel it is a distraction. Certainly I want the dog paying attention to me and understand what I want but I also want him to think and act on his own. Actually this little video is a very good example of how not to do things.

*I'm disappointed after reading your response to The Colonel. It comes across as if you didn't try to research treat/marker training at all, and were trying to do it wrong on purpose to prove your point that you think it doesn't work. You even said you exaggerated things in the video on purpose to prove your point. That type of action doesn't prove your point. 

Can you imagine what might have happened if you'd actually researched it, and really tried it? You may have been surprised.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

I viewed both videos and was more impressed with the demeanor of the two trainers, calm, assertive and somewhat low keyed. Characteristics that are a real asset when training puppies. There is a trend, more buzz words, to do what is called raising puppies. I prefer to call it pre-basics and is very important the first four months or so of a puppies life. Treat training is of course one of the techniques. I use cut up little bits of hot dogs kept in plastic bag , treat training from about 7 or 8 weeks of age until about three months old. Starting out with sit and the final phase of heeling, with a treat for the sit. After the three month period, give or take a few weeks, we kinda go into a semi-formal obedience and use a tennis ball as a reward, throwing it while the pup is on lead after an exercise, encouraging a clean delivery. 

The only thing in my opinion, is the "overcooking" of treats, too many in Pete's case and perhaps throwing the treat, something I haven't done, but, never say never in dog. These two guys, in my opinion, would be excellent puppy raisers unless there is a anger management issue they are hiding. Past the pre-basics, would have to see their next level ,of course that would be basics, then view the product at the end of basics. Too many hyper, easily frustrated, angry type folks, handicapping the future of their dogs. Thanks for the videos.


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## Willie Alderson (Jan 26, 2011)

gdgnyc said:


> Pete is an excellent trainer and a gentleman.


Pete is an excellent trainer...but a gentleman??? I've learned a lot from him, though it's been all in the field. You should see his table manners! :razz:

I used treats (dog kibble, she was very food motivated) with Roxi when she was a pup and it definitely helped her understand the task at hand. Timing is everything! As she got older I phased out the treats completely. I'll definitely be treat training my next pup!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

ChessieMom said:


> @ Steve:
> 
> *Remember this is the pups first lesson at this and as I said I exaggerated some things to get a response and hear different ideas on the method.*
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying and apologize because it does sound that way but I assure you that is not the way it is meant. The exaggeration point was to show what I perceive as bad habits that arise from treat training. I realize if done right some of this can be avoided but still are undesirable traits *TO ME. *I just feel that treat training is unnecessary and just ads to a plate that is already waaay full.
I have no problem with treat training. If you want to do it awesome just not my cup of tea, I prefer coffee.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> A great resource is here: http://www.video.clickertraining.com/library
> 
> A great one to teach all the aspects of the formal, responsible retrieve is this one: http://www.video.clickertraining.com/CFVEX13MP02
> 
> ...


Thanks Jennifer. Here is another link for more training. Lori Jolly E training. She has a number of E lessons if this is the approach you are interested in.!

http://www.e-trainingfordogs.com/2011/05/reliable-retriever-skills-beginning-basics/


http://www.e-trainingfordogs.com/2011/05/retrievers-teaching-a-dependable-fetch/


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Ok here's Billy again today training they way I would normally do it. Disregard the comment about me being serious today, poor choice of words. Just meant that I was actually thinking about what I was doing. Also want to apologize for the original video as it does seem that I am making a mockery of treat training even to me. That was not my intent at the time.
I feel I have lots of training to do to accomplish what I want to do and treat training just ads to that load. I also feel that there are plenty of other ways to mark proper response and there are plenty of rewards for the pup without the treats. Also as mentioned in this video I cant help but feeling sometimes the treat is actually a distraction from the task at hand.

http://youtu.be/w-z2sATN1mM


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

[QUOTEThe only thing in my opinion, is the "overcooking" of treats, too many in Pete's case and perhaps throwing the treat, something I haven't done, but, never say never in dog. These two guys, in my opinion, would be excellent puppy raisers unless there is a anger management issue they are hiding. Past the pre-basics, would have to see their next level ,of course that would be basics, then view the product at the end of basics. Too many hyper, easily frustrated, angry type folks, handicapping the future of their dogs. Thanks for the videos.][/QUOTE]

I've probably come close to running the gamut on steady and return to heel as far as different ways of approaching it. So far for me this method beats every one hands down. This is peaches first time with this little approach. I now use it for all ages I like it so much. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxkHvrObyW8 This is a few sessions later. She is learning to lock and focus.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZhnpSylSQo

And here is her littermate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwsR5hwQbHU






And Willies right ,,stay away from my plate and somebody please get me a couple more sleeves.
Pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Pete said:


> [QUOTEThe only thing in my opinion, is the "overcooking" of treats, too many in Pete's case and perhaps throwing the treat, something I haven't done, but, never say never in dog. These two guys, in my opinion, would be excellent puppy raisers unless there is a anger management issue they are hiding. Past the pre-basics, would have to see their next level ,of course that would be basics, then view the product at the end of basics. Too many hyper, easily frustrated, angry type folks, handicapping the future of their dogs. Thanks for the videos.]


I've probably come close to running the gamut on steady and return to heel as far as different ways of approaching it. So far for me this method beats every one hands down. This is peaches first time with this little approach. I now use it for all ages I like it so much. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxkHvrObyW8 This is a few sessions later. She is learning to lock and focus.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZhnpSylSQo

And here is her littermate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwsR5hwQbHU
This way you can see some type of progression.







And Willies right ,,stay away from my plate and somebody please get me a couple more sleeves.
Pete[/QUOTE]


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Still in what I would call pre-basics would like to see the end product from both videos. Just can't believe in my opinion, that type of training down the road, would get you too much? for what my goals are..still my post stands for puppy raising. I don't think there are any new mousetraps, at what point does the "precision" take place? Just asking, keeping a open mind. What level are you training for? gundogs, hunt tests or field trials? or all of the aforementioned.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Steve Shaver said:


> Ok here's Billy again today training they way I would normally do it. Disregard the comment about me being serious today, poor choice of words. Just meant that I was actually thinking about what I was doing. Also want to apologize for the original video as it does seem that I am making a mockery of treat training even to me. That was not my intent at the time.
> I feel I have lots of training to do to accomplish what I want to do and treat training just ads to that load. I also feel that there are plenty of other ways to mark proper response and there are plenty of rewards for the pup without the treats. Also as mentioned in this video I cant help but feeling sometimes the treat is actually a distraction from the task at hand.
> 
> http://youtu.be/w-z2sATN1mM


Steve I do the same as you with the food bowl.
Treat training is not for everyone. And as I said I variable treat train once he knows his stuff. Down the road the duck is his reward and treats are for at home or in the truck!
Billie was good for second time. I like the way you are calm and matter of fact with him about what you are doing. I am at the stage of the sit as in Hillman's where I have the lead on. He is getting the idea. We are presently trying all the things I have taught him at home now in different settings and places adding a few distractions with or with out treats.
Just like you said I find I have to quit early (keep him sweet and wanting to do more) b/c he looses concentration on his work.
Thanks again for the video. I will interested in seeing how Billie does after a few more sessions. Please keep us posted.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Pete said:


> I've probably come close to running the gamut on steady and return to heel as far as different ways of approaching it. So far for me this method beats every one hands down. This is peaches first time with this little approach. I now use it for all ages I like it so much.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxkHvrObyW8 This is a few sessions later. She is learning to lock and focus.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZhnpSylSQo
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting. Nice job on stand alones!


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## big gunner (Mar 1, 2010)

Just to clear or muddy things up a little more. Having trained in both Obedience / Field at the highest levels. This is how it went for me. Many years ago I had a young derby dog that did pretty well. She had some basic obedience no treat training. After the derby aged out I went back to obedience the watch me or my face was highly stressed. That dog was part of my leg when it came to healing. I finished her O.T.C.H. at around 7 yrs old tried to go back to the Qualifying as I still hunted and trained her for field trials. Major problem When we walked to the line for marks or blinds she would stay glued on my face just glancing out in the field.
My present dog who is Q.A.A. at 3 yrs. and is working on All-Age set ups is doing great. I am presently trying to finish his utility degree in obedience. The tough thing here is that he does not want that face to face contact as he is always scoping his environment. This is a tough one to call. I will still try to pursue both venues an AFC/OTCH. There are very few who have achieved that goal.
As for using treats or clickers. I have seen some amazing things done with them. Don't forget you have to ween them off at some point. As for the present I wish I would have never started with treats. Just my 2 cents.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Criquetpas said:


> Still in what I would call pre-basics would like to see the end product from both videos. Just can't believe in my opinion, that type of training down the road, would get you too much? for what my goals are..still my post stands for puppy raising. I don't think there are any new mousetraps, at what point does the "precision" take place? Just asking, keeping a open mind. What level are you training for? gundogs, hunt tests or field trials? or all of the aforementioned.



Don't quite understand what you are asking here Earl, except for the what level am I training for. The answer to that would be NFC. Don't know if I'll ever get there or even qualify but that is my goal. Billy is a trial dog first and foremost. I have other dogs to hunt with and he may take over when he is older and the others retire but for now that is the direction I want to go.
Please clarify the rest of your post;-), would like to understand as I think there is something there to be learned.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Still in what I would call pre-basics would like to see the end product from both videos. Just can't believe in my opinion, that type of training down the road, would get you too much? for what my goals are..still my post stands for puppy raising. I don't think there are any new mousetraps, at what point does the "precision" take place? Just asking, keeping a open mind. What level are you training for? gundogs, hunt tests or field trials? or all of the aforementioned.


If your question was directed at me
Yes of coarse,,,pre basics.
yes I train gun dogs and ht dogs. I also train my dogs for ft,,but I don't run as many as I like.

I never start with precision,,what ever precision I am able to come up with comes together at around 2 or 2 and a half. I whittle away at my exaggerated movements over time to the exaggeration is gone. Every thing comes together near the end., Customer dogs are different because I am on a time frame.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Steve Shaver said:


> Don't quite understand what you are asking here Earl, except for the what level am I training for. The answer to that would be NFC. Don't know if I'll ever get there or even qualify but that is my goal. Billy is a trial dog first and foremost. I have other dogs to hunt with and he may take over when he is older and the others retire but for now that is the direction I want to go.
> Please clarify the rest of your post;-), would like to understand as I think there is something there to be learned.


I should have addressed you one on one, rather then lumping you together. This is about the first time I have seen a video on very young dog training on RTF. I am impressed with your demeanor and your handling the young dog. Many donot know that it is a specialty with young dog training. Many of the very successful field trial pros don't want to do very young dogs, rather, they wait until the dogs are through basics and even then want them doing cold blinds etc before they take them. There is no glory in doing young dogs. You have to want to do it and enjoy the training. Something I see in you. OK, my question to you would be , are you a e-collar person? The second question watching you do the sit and walking around for steadiness is good but I noticed the dog looking down and not following you as perhaps you would want a dog to do for the sit command,not moving the body, but still trying to watch you. Just curious, the field trial training I understand. Trying to pay a compliment, but, it is not coming out properly. Not much attention is paid to the very young dogs everyone wants a handling dog right out of the womb.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Pete said:


> If your question was directed at me
> Yes of coarse,,,pre basics.
> yes I train gun dogs and ht dogs. I also train my dogs for ft,,but I don't run as many as I like.
> 
> I never start with precision,,what ever precision I am able to come up with comes together at around 2 or 2 and a half. I whittle away at my exaggerated movements over time to the exaggeration is gone. Every thing comes together near the end., Customer dogs are different because I am on a time frame.


OK fair enough, you just work at a slower pace. I don't critique folks who make a living training dogs, generally, as I have been a full-time professional and been called a professional amateur, whatever that means. Probably because I am retired. Do you e-collar train? the level you train for I do understand. Again I am impressed with your very young dog training or what I call prebasics. A non glory part of dog training, sometimes very much over looked. Just watching your stand alones, returns etc.,but you have explained it. I was just curious on the end product, pre-basics through transition (more buzz words).
Precision is perhaps the wrong word. Nice video again like your demeanor and patience. Maybe you aren't up for a Academy award as an actor, but, fully understand what you are doing.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

[QUOTECriquetpas;1183778]I should have addressed you one on one, rather than lumping you together. This is about the first time I have seen a video on very young dog training on RTF. I am impressed with your demeanor and your handling the young dog. Many donot know that it is a specialty with young dog training. Many of the very successful field trial pros don't want to do very young dogs, rather, they wait until the dogs are through basics and even then want them doing cold blinds etc before they take them. There is no glory in doing young dogs. You have to want to do it and enjoy the training. Something I see in you. OK, my question to you would be , are you a e-collar person? The second question watching you do the sit and walking around for steadiness is good but I noticed the dog looking down and not following you as perhaps you would want a dog to do for the sit command,not moving the body, but still trying to watch you. Just curious, the field trial training I understand. Trying to pay a compliment, but, it is not coming out properly. Not much attention is paid to the very young dogs everyone wants a handling dog right out of the womb.[/QUOTE]





Thanks for the compliment Earl. Yes I do use the ecollar.
I train my own dogs for ft. Client dogs so far are gun dogs. Have run a few in hunt tests and a couple in trials but if I had my way client dogs would all be 8 weeks to 6 months old. I love running trials at all levels but my true love is puppies.
Billy is 3.5 months old and this is his first session with this. Right now the main goal is for him to just remain sitting until told to do something else. He is easily distracted .The focus on me will come as he progresses. So far I really like what I see in Billy.


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Looked at your Website Steve, should have done that to start, makes me feel better as you indicate what you enjoy doing with dogs, training puppies! Picked up on that right away.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Perhaps this guy should go see Steve ? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3NOYMzVC3s


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Rather crass of you, Robt., posting a *pointing dog trainer video* in a retrieving forum. But you gotta admit, with that sing-song cadence, they do talk right nice to their dogs - talking even when the dog goes on "Polish point." (OK, so it could just as easily be Portuguese point, or Eyetalian point or Irish point though I don't think the Irish have any pointing dogs of their own.)

MG


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Perhaps this guy should go see Steve ?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3NOYMzVC3s





Nope that dog is too old for me, give him Pete's number. hahahaha. Put a smile on my face first thing this morning.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

polmaise said:


> Perhaps this guy should go see Steve ?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3NOYMzVC3s


He needs help that is for sure!


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## nailbender (Jan 23, 2014)

polmaise said:


> Perhaps this guy should go see Steve ?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3NOYMzVC3s


My wife and I were crying. I am still teary as I'm typing


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Earl
I couldn't copy and paste your quote #41
This is sort of what the end looks like although a guy could go further and through water and take it as far as they want. I used up the big end of the field this morning so I did this little triple. Just to show you sort of what the end might look like,,,only further and more tec. Can't show you under these conditions.
A glitch to work out is the staring at the gunner on the 3rd gun. From my perspective I want the dog locking on the bird not me,,,but when handling it on a blind its obvious where they should be looking.

Thats why eye contact is not always a good thing. It has been a couple months since she did much of this. The early puppy training is what really sinches it up.
Pete



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4AyAt6LA4


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

also Mary Lynn at the end of that video I threw in what I thought you were asking on the other thread where the gentilman ( sorry don't know his name) is holding up a bumper and talking about sit. Tomarro I will send you a flattie video on that other thread, which I think will answer your question.
Pete


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Pete said:


> also Mary Lynn at the end of that video I threw in what I thought you were asking on the other thread where the gentilman ( sorry don't know his name) is holding up a bumper and talking about sit. Tomarro I will send you a flattie video on that other thread, which I think will answer your question.
> Pete


Okay, yes Pete. Those were great stand alones and like you say you could take it one step further to tech. I train most of the time myself so I become very creative! Thanks for posting.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

You can also throw a bunch of down the shore marks when the weather gets better and handle your dog without breaking momentum. You will still have to finish that exercise with the dog next to you,,,but it puts you a head of the game.

Pete


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake
when coming out of water. For example:
Here is a dog trained with only clicker training positive methods:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
Note that after a huge time investment, the dog still drops the bumper on return from swimming at 8:33 in the video! I don't have a problem with clicker training, I don't
think it is as effective as force fetching for reliable bird handling, especially coming out of water hundreds of meters from the handler.

Treats are used by most agility trainers, even very advanced agility dogs!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MissSkeeter said:


> I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake
> when coming out of water. For example:
> Here is a dog trained with only clicker training positive methods:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
> ...


I would not use treats on my older guy in agility b/c the jumps would mean nothing to him as he was food driven!He would run after me or whoever had treats. He even jumped out of the ring on a course, ate someones muffin and jumped back in to continue. The lady whose muffin he ate was mad. The judge and were laughing! A food driven dog!!
You have to read your dog on how far you want to go with him/her and in what venue you want to run them in. You also have the choice to train your dog the way you feel best to get where you are going. There is nothing wrong with clicker training or the FF and CC method, but you choose what is best for you. JMHO


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

MissSkeeter said:


> I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake
> when coming out of water. For example:
> Here is a dog trained with only clicker training positive methods:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
> ...


On your video the owner did not put the bumper in the dog`s mouth after each retrieve to reinforce what was expected. I would not recall a dog off the mark while learning to retrieve and building drive. She is definitely over treating to reinforce bad work. She should do variable treating once the dog had gotten the idea, reinforcing correct method. Owner admits she is doing too many criteria for the dog. And over my dead body will I go out and retrieve to show the dog drive. I had better stop now as I think I am too critical. JMO Thank you for posting very interesting.


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## big gunner (Mar 1, 2010)

Just out of curiosity I wonder how many FC's or AFC's were food trained. I know in the Competitive obedience game almost all are.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

MissSkeeter said:


> I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake
> when coming out of water. For example:
> Here is a dog trained with only clicker training positive methods:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGIdbU
> ...


That is one dog.

My dog was clicker trained and does not drop bird or bumper coming out of the water. In fact, I have two clicker trained goldens who don't drop coming out of water. One is a show bred, 4 yr old and one is a field bred dog. The young one turns 2 next week and got two senior passes when she was 18 months old. 

There are many clicker trained retrievers who don't drop coming out of water. One notable one lives on the east coast and has an SH title, a few Master passes and several Jams in the Qualifying stakes.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

*"Force-Free Fetch Training: No More Ear Pinch"*



Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I would not use treats on my older guy in agility b/c the jumps would mean nothing to him as he was food driven!He would run after me or whoever had treats. He even jumped out of the ring on a course, ate someones muffin and jumped back in to continue. The lady whose muffin he ate was mad. The judge and were laughing! A food driven dog!!
> You have to read your dog on how far you want to go with him/her and in what venue you want to run them in. You also have the choice to train your dog the way you feel best to get where you are going. There is nothing wrong with clicker training or the FF and CC method, but you choose what is best for you. JMHO


Hi Mary,

I was trying to say that just like most advanced competitive retrievers are trained using a Carr-based system, most advanced competetive agility dogs are trained using a treat reward system...there are definitely exceptions. The agility training and retreiver training cultures are very different from that perspective.

_I have yet to see a retriever that has been clicker trained not drop the bird to shake __when coming out of water.
Here is *another* video of a nice flatcoat retriever taught hold with click-treat:
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ48pPepj4k
Yet the first thing the retriever does when it gets to the shoreline is drop the bumper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2JmqP2Zscw

Jennifer, I'm not saying it can't be done...I'm saying I have yet to see it on a video where the retriever reliable holds at a distance after leaving water...from my perspective the videos *"Clicker Training A Bird Dog Retrieve"* and *"Force-Free Fetch Training: No More Ear Pinch" *show
me that after a considerable investment of training time the result was a retriever that was unreliable at hold when leaving the water.
*Both trainers* in these 2 videos seem to be *pretty good trainers* from my perspective...in my opinion it is much more challenging to have a retriever that reliably holds under all conditions using positive methods compared to conventional force-fetch.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

MissSkeeter said:


> Jennifer, I'm not saying it can't be done...I'm saying I have yet to see it on a video where the retriever reliable holds at a distance after leaving water...from my perspective the videos *"Clicker Training A Bird Dog Retrieve"* and *"Force-Free Fetch Training: No More Ear Pinch" *show
> me that after a considerable investment of training time the result was a retriever that was unreliable at hold when leaving the water.
> *Both trainers* in these 2 videos seem to be *pretty good trainers* from my perspective...in my opinion it is much more challenging to have a retriever that reliably holds under all conditions using positive methods compared to conventional force-fetch.


Frankly, I think both methods are challenging and take some skill. To me, the force fetch technique was difficult. For many, it is easy. For me, clicker training it was easy, but to many, it is difficult. Both methods require a sequential process, some planning, some timing and an ability to read the dog and change things up to match the particular dog. In my opinion, it all boils down to which set of tools and steps appeal to the individual trainer. 

Whichever method a person uses, you will have to address new situations like holding when coming out of the water. Or holding wet soggy old birds vs a bumper etc etc.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Frankly, I think both methods are challenging and take some skill. To me, the force fetch technique was difficult. For many, it is easy. For me, clicker training it was easy, but to many, it is difficult. Both methods require a sequential process, some planning, some timing and an ability to read the dog and change things up to match the particular dog. In my opinion, it all boils down to which set of tools and steps appeal to the individual trainer.
> 
> Whichever method a person uses, you will have to address new situations like holding when coming out of the water. Or holding wet soggy old birds vs a bumper etc etc.


Jennifer good explanation! ML


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