# Patton vs. Road warrior



## cklutts (Nov 7, 2007)

I have the choice to buy a pup out of NFC Five Star General Patton or NFC Clubmead's Road Warrior. Which would you guys choose and why?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

cklutts said:


> I have the choice to buy a pup out of NFC Five Star General Patton or NFC Clubmead's Road Warrior. Which would you guys choose and why?


I would buy them both. No seriously, I would. Course I need therapy...

/Paul


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## Hawkeye Labs (Jun 11, 2004)

Would depend on the female.


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## cklutts (Nov 7, 2007)

The bitch of Pattons pup is GRHRCH, both of her parents are FC's. The bitch to Warriors pup is daughter to FC Watermark The Boss and is owned by Mary Tatum (who owned the boss)who will be running her in the AKC Field Trials.


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## cklutts (Nov 7, 2007)

Pedigree for Warrior pups
http://www.watermark-retrievers.com/roadlaurielitter.htm
Pedigree for patton pups
http://www.stoneylanekennels.com/puppies.html


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Chopper .......


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I have seen Laurie run before - I ran against her in the Derby and Qualifying, haven't seen her in AA level, but I thought she was a nice young dog when I saw her. So in the case of the two litters presented I'd lean toward that one just because I have seen with my own eyes the bitch of the litter. 

If I was basing my choice solely on stauds I'd lean toward Patton.

FOM


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## AlexM (Apr 12, 2006)

I like that Patton litter...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Patton, just because I like his style, not that I do not like Chopper. I am like Paul, give me one of each.


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## Denney (Oct 23, 2007)

I'd go with the Patton litter


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I'd go with the Chopper litter all day.


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

That Patton liter is definitly doubling up on Lean Mac, which isn't a bad thing. I'd go with the Chopper liter


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## cklutts (Nov 7, 2007)

Thanks guys. It seems like a tie. I might just get one of each.


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Chopper has some really nice young dogs right now.


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## cklutts (Nov 7, 2007)

Jason E. said:


> Chopper has some really nice young dogs right now.


Does he have a website similar to Patton's that list his pups achievements?


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2007)

I like the Patton litter


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## anassar11 (Oct 5, 2007)

If I could swing it, definitely one of each. Cant go wrong there.


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## thunderdog (Feb 19, 2003)

I currently have a 2 yr old Patton son here for training. He is a large male and was a bit slow to mature. He is a very good marker and an extremely biddable dog. I really like him and he is a team player. His mother was GRHRCH Shoup's Home Run Casey.

I also have a 7 month old Chopper pup out of a derby list,QAA bitch. He is not going to be a very large male and I have just started force work with him. Seems to be intelligent and willing to work with me. Time will tell with him. Hope to point him toward the derby next fall.

Don't think you would be wrong to choose either litter.

Joe


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

I gotta go with the bitch with accomplishments on her (QAA) just from the peramaters you gave. 

So it's the Patton litter.


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

Both nice litters. Kinda like which do you like Coke or Pepsi? I'm a fan of Patton.
Lyle


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

cklutts said:


> Does he have a website similar to Patton's that list his pups achievements?


I'm laughing at the idea of Frank at a computer.  

Chopper was the 05 NFC as a 3 year old. His puppies are just now starting to do something, and that's in the derby. It'll be awhile longer before we see his pups in the all age. I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing some.


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

You can't go wrong with either of the litters. I agree with a couple of other people on here, I'd get one of each.

Cory


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## ducksoup (Oct 3, 2005)

Both litters are nice -- since I'm a big fan of Lean Mac bloodline and the Patton litter doubles up on this I'd likely pick Patton litter -- also fact that would be yellow factored not too bad either -- but really you couldn't go wrong with either.


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

What about EIC, CNM, hips in the 3 generation pedigree, CERF, thyroid, ...? More to compare.

The Joe Black X Libby litter looks good, too...


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

Keith Stroyan said:


> The Joe Black X Libby litter looks good, too...


That's what I was thinking...


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

I think the intent was to get opinions on a specific Chopper litter vs a specific Patton litter, not saying these were better than others.


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

Frank doesn't have a website and never will unless Christine starts it up and runs it. I have a Chopper female out of a Lean Mac/ Sweet Potato Pie bitch and am very pleased and excited about her. She'll be headed to FF in a month or so. Very high drive, excellent marking and we found out the other day while doing some upland training with some HT dogs that she will point. Chopper pups are starting to show up in Derby and for the most part are doing very well, it will be interesting to see them move on up.


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

Keith Stroyan said:


> What about EIC, CNM, hips in the 3 generation pedigree, CERF, thyroid, ...? More to compare.
> 
> The Joe Black X Libby litter looks good, too...



I am with you on this one Keith.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

Ask Angie. I heard there was a line in Vegas on what she will say.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

I own a nice Patton pup, now QAA even though he has poor vision (blind in one eye since birth - micropapilla). Just goes to show his talent otherwise. This pup of mine also has at least 2 other QAA littermates & they have no apparent eye issues. All QAA by age 3.

I own a nice Chopper pup out of Patton's sister - Keliah. So I get both in one pup - at least in theory, time will tell.

There are now several nice Patton pups runnning AA stakes & some impressive Chopper pups coming too. That said, I'd alway go with the stronger bitch lines assuming any potential health concerns could be satisfied.


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## backwater retrievers (Aug 5, 2005)

I'm taking pick female out of the Chopper X Laurie litter I've heard good things about Laurie from Brian White who I believe had her in training for a while . I think they will both be nice litters!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have washed out well bred pups from both Patton and Chopper

Oh well


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

It would all come down to the bitch if it were me picking. I've seen both of these dogs in competition and have been very impressed with both. I havealso seen nice young dogs out of both. Hugh Arthur has a Chopper bitch client dog that he's running in Derbies now. She is lights out. Patton has many nice offspring out there.


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

I have a pup from chopper that have not been washed out yet by my pro, do that count? My pro is already talking about getting derby points when I got my progress report on my pup. I hope he is not just building me up to get me off his case. I'm just glad that he has not sent him back as a reject  FYI, he is my avatar pic

Angelo


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## David Sours (Feb 4, 2006)

I can give no opinion on Patton other than I am considering getting a female sired by him. However, I have a Chopper pup out of a Ram bitch and he is something else. He just turned 15 months old and I love him. My favorite aspect about him is he is very intelligent and works very well with me. He is a great marker and runs his blinds extremly hard. We are in the transition stage right now and he is picking up concepts very well. If I get brave enough I plan on running a derby or two with him in the spring, he is definetly MH material. I don't have a boat load of experience but he is the most intelligent dog that I have worked with. The only downfall that I have with him is he has a little yip gives when I release him on a mark. We have been working on it and he is acutually doing very well, other than that this dog is all that I ever wanted and more, and I think the only thing that will limit him is myself as a trainer and handler. I know I didn't help but on the comparison but thought I would give my .02 on my Chopper pup.

Good Luck, 
David


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## john h. (Oct 15, 2007)

I have a Patton Pup out of Susan Ritch's FC Theda. He has 2 Qual wins at two years old. Obvviously, I am happy with his performance. Several others out of the litter have done well, i.e. Derby list, QAA.

Also, I marshalled the Derby at Miss. Valley this fall and was quite impressed with Deb Bredeson's Patton Pup that won both the Derby and the Q.


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## Anthony Petrozza (Jan 4, 2005)

Out of Patton who is the closest to achieving FC or AFC.


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## mikebeadle (Dec 26, 2003)

The Bear XXII...something like that. His call name is Yogi. He is on Rorem's truck and has his open win. He is out of Gusts Go Annie Go. One of Patton's first breedings. Remarkable dog. 

Mike

ps. Pow belongs to Kim Johnston, he is out of our Nicki and Patton. He qualified all age at 25/26 months old. He ran as test dog in an open at 26/27 months old and smacked the first series of the open. Patton will definitely prove that he can produce all age dogs. Just a little more time. I'd say next year you will see some FC/AFC's by him.


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## AlexM (Apr 12, 2006)

Which litter did you choose?


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## cklutts (Nov 7, 2007)

Im getting one of each!!!!!


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## AlexM (Apr 12, 2006)

Males? Females? One of each? 

Wise choice!!!


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## cklutts (Nov 7, 2007)

Female from Patton litter. Male from Chopper litter. Hopefully one will turn out to be a fine Field Trial dog, if not I'll have a hell of a hunting dog.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

It is *typically* a bad idea to raise two puppies at the same time.


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## Marty Bullington (Dec 15, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> It is *typically* a bad idea to raise two puppies at the same time.


I agree with Ted on this one!!!


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## cklutts (Nov 7, 2007)

So I've been told. They will not be raised togather. A buddy of mine will be keeping one of them until there old enough to be sent to a trainer.


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Marty Bullington said:


> I agree with Ted on this one!!!


sure u do ...


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Lance-CO said:


> I have a pup from chopper that have not been washed out yet by my pro, do that count? My pro is already talking about getting derby points when I got my progress report on my pup. I hope he is not just building me up to get me off his case. I'm just glad that he has not sent him back as a reject  FYI, he is my avatar pic
> 
> Angelo


Nope.... Your pro told me he likes your little hellion....


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> Nope.... Your pro told me he likes your little hellion....


Thanks Susan, I'm really trying to play it down but deep inside I'm proud of my knucklehead that he survived this far. But again, its still too early if my pup is really going anywhere. No matter what happen, he will always going to be my pup. Thanks Again, it always a pleasure to hear about my knucklehead




Marty Bullington said:


> I agree with Ted on this one!!!


Just in case I hit my head and my wife for unknown reason let me get another pup, what is a good seperation age between two pups?


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Lance-CO said:


> Just in case I hit my head and my wife for unknown reason let me get another pup, what is a good seperation age between two pups?


I'm very "top heavy" in the 5-6 year old range, so I waited until the youngest was 4 to get Ruckus.... (part of which was Denise's doing). So, I would say when Pick is 2-4 years old... because if you're going to remain competitive and sane, you've got to keep a pipeline. If you have unlimited funds get as many as you want. If you only want about 2 trial dogs at a time, then 2-4 years old.

Labs are like Lays Potato chips.... you can't have just one....


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

FYI to everybody who is interested of a chopper's pup w/ a strong bitch line, Denise Zimmerman is repeating Susan and my pups breeding due to overwhelming request. PM me for her number

Angelo


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

I also have a Chopper/Tequlia Sunrise pup that we are very pleased with. Pink just turned 11 months; we ran her in our last two trials this year. She finished both trials with jams. We were very happy both trails were large derbies and she was only 10 months at the time. We live in the Pacific Northwest and we are seeing a lot of nice Copper pups coming up now. I think the next couple of years will determine how well they transition into all age stakes. The last two trials we ran were Spokane,Wa and Connell,Wa and there were at least 10 to 15 Chopper pups entered in each derby.
________
MOTORCYCLE TIRES


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## rsfavor (Jul 9, 2007)

I am pretty new to the retriever game but let me ask something. How many titled dogs have Chopper and Patton produced? Patton is a good bit older than Chopper. Has Patton been bred much? How about Chopper? I am under the impression that Chopper has "passed on his genes" better than Patton. Is this true? If so, why wouldn't you pick the Chopper pup?


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

Chopper's oldest pups just turned 2 in Nov I think, so no titles yet for his but lots of derby points and potential.
And I think Patton's offspring are young also. Not sure about him.


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## Lyle Harne (Jul 7, 2004)

JKL said:


> Chopper's oldest pups just turned 2 in Nov I think, so no titles yet for his but lots of derby points and potential.
> And I think Patton's offspring are young also. Not sure about him.


Thru 2006 Chopper has yet to place any pups on the derby list and thru the end of Aug. none yet this year. Little premature to say "lots of derby points" The pups are young.

Thru 2006 Patton has 7 pups on the derby list.


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Lyle Harne said:


> Thru 2006 Chopper has yet to place any pups on the derby list and thru the end of Aug. none yet this year. Little premature to say "lots of derby points" The pups are young.
> 
> Thru 2006 Patton has 7 pups on the derby list.


Don't know how many Chopper's pup are on the derby list. But the one running derbies are very impressive, please go to thread: http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18928


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

i know of atleast 3 or 4 this fall made the derby list out of Chopper


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

Riggs 30 derby points
Missy 22 derby points
These are out of Chopper's first breeding with Mike Beadles bitch Star.

Windy 10 Derby points by 15 months age, does not age out until June 2008
Chopper bred to Pam Bryants bitch, Muffy


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## Jason E. (Sep 9, 2004)

Tank derby list and pink derby list Chopper X seaside


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## mikebeadle (Dec 26, 2003)

If memory serves, Riggs has 35 derby points in 17 trials. He won 5 of his last 6 derbies.

Mike


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

Lyle Harne said:


> Thru 2006 Chopper has yet to place any pups on the derby list and thru the end of Aug. none yet this year. Little premature to say "lots of derby points" The pups are young.
> 
> Thru 2006 Patton has 7 pups on the derby list.



Thru 2006 Choppers pups were too young but I will bank on seeing "lot of derby points" coming from Chopper offspring for 2007.
I myself prefer Patton over Chopper but I cant deny what I have been seeing all summer and fall from the pups around here. Myself and a few others have the only Patton offspring in this area but there are oodles of Chopper pups.


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## BLKDOGS (Jun 30, 2005)

Both of them have fine pedigrees & perfomance records.I myself would get neither.I don't go so much off of performance or pedigree when picking a litter.It's production that I look 1st & foremost.I'd look at some of the leading producers of titled offspring & what crosses produced HT & FTtitled offspring.I'd be looking for pups out of Ford,Auggie, & Ritz all 3 have produced well.Find a cross that WORKS out of a known producer.Good Luck choosing your next pup... Steven SoIL


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

BLKDOGS said:


> Both of them have fine pedigrees & perfomance records.I myself would get neither.I don't go so much off of performance or pedigree when picking a litter.It's production that I look 1st & foremost.I'd look at some of the leading producers of titled offspring & what crosses produced HT & FTtitled offspring.I'd be looking for pups out of Ford,Auggie, & Ritz all 3 have produced well.Find a cross that WORKS out of a known producer.Good Luck choosing your next pup... Steven SoIL


My method: I see something I really like and I am willing to take a chance.
I have 6 dogs; 4 running, 1 retired and 1 finishing breakout. All have different pedigrees. I pick my pup because I see a cross that I feel may mix well. The sire and / or bitch is something I really like to watch.
So far, I have 1 FC AFC, 1 with 2 Am wins this year, 1 with points & needs win for title, 1 wild card (bought as started dog and needed some transition but should be good to go this year), 1 with qual win at 25 months and started running ams before 2 1/2. 
I am not too disappointed with my methods so far. I am not at the Natl this year but I do play to the end almost every weekend.


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

I like the Chopper litter, I am a bigger Harley fan than Lean Mac. Both look like good prospects.


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## swqasue (Mar 12, 2006)

I have a Patton pup. She is out of Patton and Waterdog's Trida Stop Me (Allie). She is running Hunt TEsts and had her MH at 2 1/2. Of course her trainer is Kristie Wilder at Waterdogs! But I couldn't be happier with the dog and the results. I say the choice was based on the bitches previous litters and Patton's accomplishments. I got the best of everything!

Sue Schwab






"Preach the Gospel at all time. If necessary use words." St. Francis of Assisi


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

JKL said:


> My method: I see something I really like and I am willing to take a chance.
> I have 6 dogs; 4 running, 1 retired and 1 finishing breakout. All have different pedigrees. I pick my pup because I see a cross that I feel may mix well. The sire and / or bitch is something I really like to watch.
> So far, I have 1 FC AFC, 1 with 2 Am wins this year, 1 with points & needs win for title, 1 wild card (bought as started dog and needed some transition but should be good to go this year), 1 with qual win at 25 months and started running ams before 2 1/2.
> I am not too disappointed with my methods so far. I am not at the Natl this year but I do play to the end almost every weekend.


Next time you get a pup, I'd like one of the litter mates...


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Buzz said:


> Next time you get a pup, I'd like one of the litter mates...


The question is "What is your next pup going to be?"


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## John Bryant (Nov 5, 2004)

Mary has a track record of breeding some very nice dogs.


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