# Neoprene Vest Disagreement



## BobOwens (Jul 30, 2011)

HUGE ISSUE!

Hey Everyone,

I have been in the works on redeveloping and innovating the neoprene dog vest and therefore been asking for a lot of opinions on the subject. I just had a conversation with a young guy who has witnessed 2 dogs die from K9 Hypothermia. He didn't give details and I didn't want to ask- so maybe the dogs were standing in cold water etc. But Anyways! He said that he and some people who he trains with refuse to put vests on their dogs in cold weather because of these two deceased dogs (one chessie one lab) he explained they only put the vest on in decent weather when the dog could get injured from underwater hazards. He said the dogs can't shake the water off and therefore the cold water stays in the vest and worsens the exposure for hypothermia.

I disagreed gently because that's the polite thing to do when a man's dog passes away, but I'm 100% in disagreement. I always thought the water was held inside the vest and warmed up by the dog's core temp and fought hypothermia. If I take my dogs vest off his body is warm...

Thoughts on the topic?


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## BAYDOG (May 30, 2009)

I agree, I have seen dogs get "wobbly" and disoriented from the cold, and a vest helps immensely!! Where you located in B-Ville?


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## BobOwens (Jul 30, 2011)

Right by 3 rivers NYS Land. I'm at all the hunt tests and try to get to most of the Finger Lakes Retriever Club and Leather Stocking NAHRA club training days!


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

I have used vests in the past, I still have 2 of them. I tend not to use them. I'm not confident that they help, and I'm concerned that they may potentially cause problems. As for now I prefer to keep the dog out of the water as much as possible and dry her with a shammy when times are slow. 

I'm not convinced either way yet, so this will be a good thread.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

I can't believe anyone who regularly hunts in cold water would even question the effectiveness of a neoprene vest. Never stick your hand down inside the dogs vest? There could be ice on the outside of it, but warm on the inside. 

Granted, if the dog is standing or swimming in the cold water for long periods of time without relief, it could be a problem... 

Had them on all my dogs in Alaska and WA state in very cold water for many years and think it would be a disservice to the dog to not use it. Just my opinion.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

huntinman said:


> I can't believe anyone who regularly hunts in cold water would even question the effectiveness of a neoprene vest. Never stick your hand down inside the dogs vest? There could be ice on the outside of it, but warm on the inside.
> 
> Granted, if the dog is standing or swimming in the cold water for long periods of time without relief, it could be a problem...
> 
> Had them on all my dogs in Alaska and WA state in very cold water for many years and think it would be a disservice to the dog to not use it. Just my opinion.


Completely agree, A poor fitting vest would lead to problems, if it were too loose. Even with a vest on if the dog is in the water for long lengths of time hypothermia can and will set in if the dog isn't afforded a place up out of the water between retrieves.


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## Mark AB (Oct 20, 2010)

Hi Bob, hope your season is going well and Buck is doing better? There is another thread on this you might want to check out on this topic. I think you recall how cold it was up here the weekend before Thanksgiving? i was hunting Oneida and Reba and I had ice forming on us. At one point my waders satiffened up to where I had to work hard just to stand up!! I put my hands down Reba's vest and she was warm. You cant convince me she would have been that warm without the vest on?? But everything has its limits and even with a vest i have to keep an eye on how my mutts are handling the weather.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

After using a RiversWest fleece vest for going on two seasons I'm leaning on saying they are better than neoprene. When I take it off the coat is almost dry. I down time it seams they wick water away from the coat. I take the vest off and her coat is warm and almost dry. Have one fleece and two neoprene on the kids. So far, rotating it between my dogs different coat types, it seems to work better, appears more comfortable and drys out faster than the rubber. Also has a little floatation although I don't think they need it. The RiversWest Definately has a better cut for my chessies than my Cabelas and Avery vest. The Avery is already faded and has nicks and cuts. Plus the zipper sucks


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

counciloak said:


> I have used vests in the past, I still have 2 of them. I tend not to use them. I'm not confident that they help, and I'm concerned that they may potentially cause problems. As for now I prefer to keep the dog out of the water as much as possible and dry her with a shammy when times are slow.
> 
> I'm not convinced either way yet, so this will be a good thread.



Me too. I know they stay warmer under the vest but they also stay wet.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

In a lot of the pics folks post up, the dogs are wearing vests that I think are poorly fitted. The dogs look like they are wearing loose t-shirts. Water is gonna seep between the vest and the dog when they fit loose like that. If the vest fits properly, the dog will not be getting wet under the vest. Look at the way the wetsuits fit on humans, they are skin tight. Look at the fit of the vest on John Robinson's dog in his avatar, that is how I think they are supposed to fit.

P.S. I would not be taking advice about protecting my dog from cold from a guy who lost two of them that way. What a shame.

Edit: I do realize that stuff happens so my P.S. above should be qualified.


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

mitty said:


> In a lot of the pics folks post up, the dogs are wearing vests that I think are poorly fitted. The dogs look like they are wearing loose t-shirts. Water is gonna seep between the vest and the dog when they fit loose like that. If the vest fits properly, the dog will not be getting wet under the vest. Look at the way the wetsuits fit on humans, they are skin tight. Look at the fit of the vest on John Robinson's dog in his avatar, that is how I think they are supposed to fit.
> 
> P.S. I would not be taking advice about protecting my dog from cold from a guy who lost two of them that way. What a shame.


exactly. Mine wore a vest last weekend. When i took it off back at the truck pretty much everything under the vest was warm and dry. Its a snug fit.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

BobOwens said:


> HUGE ISSUE!
> 
> Hey Everyone,
> 
> ...


Bob, keep me posted on the vest development. Don


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I use to water ski a Lot. Used wet suit early and late in the season and even though it fit skin tight I was still wet underneath but the trapped water would be warmed to body temp. No dog vest in the world is going to fit as tight and keep water out as a wet suit for people.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

With my scientific background, I would be "driven" to avoid placing much evidence on anecdotal opinions. However, one might reach a few general conclusions from what you've gathered so far. First of all, the design of an all-inclusive tool is complicated. Secondly, common sense is not a universal commodity. And lastly, it is often easier (and necessary) to blame something else....besides yourself. 

All my Labs are inside dogs. To me this means the "thick winter coat, dry between retrieves method" just isn't going to cut it.....late in the season. Therefore, I know when conditions dictate that my dogs need their vests. Secondly, I have different vests...so each wears one that fits. They generally required trimming to fit properly. And lastly, I know when "enough is enough" way before it becomes "too much".

*Daisy "busting" ice - Northern, Illinois in December*


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

I used a neoprene vest on my golden bitch in temps as cold as -12F. As others have stated her coat and body were warm to the touch under the vest. As important, IMO, the vest helped protect her when climbing in and out of ice. (We hunted a few times on a river that was icy in the backwaters but open in the flow.) At first I would remove the vest occasionally and dry her off and give all her legs and torso a good rubdown, wring out the vest and put it back on. She'd shiver a bit until she had the vest warmed up. Last couple of hunts, when it got really cold, I just left the vest on and she seemed happier. I was ready to quit long before she was. My sympathies to those who lost a dog to hypothermia - or any reason - but IMO, a properly fitted vest is the way to go in cold water.


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## RetrieverNation (Jul 15, 2012)

It would be cool if the dog vests would use a short sleeve versus a cut out hole for the dogs front legs similar to a shorty wet suit. This is always the hardest area to get the correct fit after modifications because no matter what you do, the dogs posture can open up a gap in this area. I hunt a lot of beaver ponds and stick ponds where the danger of getting hung up is a real issue and this area is always my biggest concern. It would also seem that this area would allow the most water intrusion that could defeat the insulation properties of the vest.


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## duk-it (Feb 8, 2012)

I use a PROPERLY FITTED vest on my CBR and when I take it off his fur under the vest isn't wet at all. We just spent a week hunting sea ducks in Maine and 3 of the mornings the outside of his vest was frozen after being in the salt water, but he was warm and dry under the vest. Once the temps drop below 40 degree's the vest is standard equipment.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

RetrieverNation said:


> It would be cool if the dog vests would use a short sleeve versus a cut out hole for the dogs front legs similar to a shorty wet suit. This is always the hardest area to get the correct fit after modifications because no matter what you do, the dogs posture can open up a gap in this area. I hunt a lot of beaver ponds and stick ponds where the danger of getting hung up is a real issue and this area is always my biggest concern. It would also seem that this area would allow the most water intrusion that could defeat the insulation properties of the vest.


totaly agree with this.
Like I said earlier in the summer.
small sleeves like on mini pearls dress for the front legs and gusset ?? for neck and ab area.
not to keep all water out, but to keep snug.
and wide velcro on back instead of zipper so you can snug up vest as it tapers down dogs narrow hind end.
vests do keep dogs warm
BUT
loose sloppy fitted vests are to the dog like towing sea bags (those things you tow to slow your boat down for fishing) as they swim. just added drag


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## mgatc (Jan 7, 2012)

"Wetsuits slow heat loss in water by trapping a thin layer of water against a diver's body. While the diver still gets wet, his body rapidly heats up the thin layer of water trapped against his body to nearly body temperature. _*If the suit fits properly*_, the warm layer of water does not circulate away from the diver's body. The warm layer of body temperature water conducts less heat away from the diver than the cooler surrounding water, which keeps the diver warmer than he otherwise would be"

Any search on the topic of how neoprene works will offer the same description as accepted fact. (bold text was added by me) Being a diver and a surfer I can readily attest to the benefits of wearing a wetsuit as can any hunter standing in waist deep water wearing neoprene waders. To suggest that this does not work the same for a dog is a "touch" ill-informed. 

That being said, there are limits to it's effectiveness due to fit, temps, and amount of time in the water. Bottom line, know your dog and recognize the early signs of hypo. 

Best of luck with a new design. I would love to see a workable pullover type vest that would eliminate the zipper and the gaps around the neck and shoulders


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

I agree with the short sleeves. I hunt in northern NY in some pretty unforgiving weather and I always double-vest my Goldens - 5 mm first layer and a 3 mm vest for the top layer. It is very important to get a tight fit and most vested retrievers I observe do not have the proper fit. Also, I'm wondering if a layer of micro-foil to reflect heat back into the dog would work?


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## swampcollielover (Nov 30, 2012)

I too am a diver and have been in colder water where my neoprene wetsuit was critical. Divers are trained to understand the dangerous ability of water to pull body heat (heat sink) out of the body, even in 80 degree water you will go into hypothermia, so this is already very well documented and a lot of data is readily available on this topic. Wet suits do hold water against the body (as oppose to dry suits). they must be tight enough to keep that water from being replaced with cold water. Same on dog vests, the fit is critical, as noted above. But with a vest properly fit, the heat transfer will be substantially slowed in and out of the water. Thus delaying any ill effects of the cold. That being said, you still have to be aware as the vest will not stop hypothermia, only delay the onset. I would think that working with a trained dive instructor at a Dive Shop, you will find resources and data that is already available to help in designing a better product.....good luck on this one!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mgatc said:


> "Wetsuits slow heat loss in water by trapping a thin layer of water against a diver's body. While the diver still gets wet, his body rapidly heats up the thin layer of water trapped against his body to nearly body temperature. _*If the suit fits properly*_, the warm layer of water does not circulate away from the diver's body. The warm layer of body temperature water conducts less heat away from the diver than the cooler surrounding water, which keeps the diver warmer than he otherwise would be"
> 
> Any search on the topic of how neoprene works will offer the same description as accepted fact. (bold text was added by me) Being a diver and a surfer I can readily attest to the benefits of wearing a wetsuit as can any hunter standing in waist deep water wearing neoprene waders. To suggest that this does not work the same for a dog is a "touch" ill-informed.
> 
> ...


Like you I grew up surfing and diving California's cold winter water, even California summer is cold with the Japanese current circulating water past Alaska. When I started surfing at age 12-14 we either had no vest or hand-me-down shorty scuba vest that were way too big for us. Thank God we were on long boards so only had our legs in the water except when we wiped out. That said, all the vest did was cut the wind, cold water just flowed through because of the too loose fit. Later as surfing became more popular and wet suit manufacturers geared to build specialized surfing wetsuits (thank you O'Neill), we wore wetsuits that fit tight. Divers and some surfers know there are two types of suits, a wet suit and a dry suit. The dry suit is designed to seal off all openings and keep all water out, they are mostly used by divers in artic waters and they work very well. Wet suits as we have discussed are designed to fit very tight and trap a thin layer of water against the skin, then hold that heat in by the insulating qualities of the neoprene. 

So from my direct experience as a human, wet suit good, dry suit best, both are lifesavers versus nothing. Now for my dog, fit is everything, they have to fit tight. Renee noticed the dog in my avatar, that vest was custom made by O'Neill just for him, but I have had four dogs since Cody and have had to find vest to fit all four. I end up picking up every vest I can find, garage sales, Cabelas bargain bin, etc, all to find vest that fit snug and tight. I would rather have a five minute struggle in the morning with my hunting buddy and I zipping my dog up rather than an easy to put on loose vest. I can't believe anybody even questions the usefulness of dog vest. I have hunted my dogs with and without a vest, without they a shivering in short order even in the relative warmth of early season, with a vest they go a lot longer before showing signs of cold. 

A few more thoughts on the subject, dogs are not created equal. I have a dog with a lot of heart, but little fat and a thinner, lighter coat. This dog would literally kill himself retrieving birds in any condition. I need to be the adult who knows better and look out for his welfare. My other dog has a heavier build and an almost Chessie type dense water repellent coat. I still hunt him in a vest, why wouldn't I, but I know he is physically able to withstand more cold water. I also notice dogs that can run around on land can warm themselves up compared to sitting still for hours in a tight, wet duck blind. I would think a small stand in flooded timber would be the worse. If I'm able, I go for what my hunting buddy calls my walk-about ever couple hours or so, to limber and warm up my dog, sometimes we even get a bird or two. I hope my real world experience wearing a vest personally and observing my dogs over the years convinces those of you on the fence that they really do work.

John


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## RMC$$$ (Oct 1, 2012)

I have hunted them both with and without the vests. My dogs maintain body temperature better with a vest. In Southeast Texas they are inside a lot due to the heat and don't develop a good winter coat like dogs up north. Last week we had temps from below freezing to 70 degrees in less than 5 days. It just doesn't rain or get and stay cold here like it used to several years ago.

Couple of suggestions on the dog vests. The fit is the hardest part. I agree with sleeves as the fit is never ideal even with trimming. Reinforce the neck with something to prevent it from stretching out after the dog has been lifted by the vest multiple times. My new dog vest has some kind of cordura over the chest but it would be better if it had more. The cordura does not have problems with burrs sticking to it like the neoprene. 

Mr. Robinson where did you order a custom vest for your dog from? I am pretty sure many of the people on here would like to do the same.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Here is the problem I've run into. My petite Golden has a big rib cage and small tummy, skinny legs, but a good hand width between the front legs. I had to buy a huge vest to fit her rib cage. Then I had to cut away a significant portion of the rest of the vest to fit her neck and front legs correctly. I feel like too much of her front is still exposed. And it doesn't fit that snug around her belly. 

It would be nice to have a better way to size the vests. Maybe have thinner, more pliable material around the neck and front leg sleeves and waist to ensure a really snug fit that still allows easy movement, then have thicker material for the core.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> Here is the problem I've run into. My petite Golden has a big rib cage and small tummy, skinny legs, but a good hand width between the front legs. I had to buy a huge vest to fit her rib cage. Then I had to cut away a significant portion of the rest of the vest to fit her neck and front legs correctly. I feel like too much of her front is still exposed. And it doesn't fit that snug around her belly.
> 
> It would be nice to have a better way to size the vests. Maybe have thinner, more pliable material around the neck and front leg sleeves and waist to ensure a really snug fit that still allows easy movement, then have thicker material for the core.


Hopefully Bob Owens is reading this and will think about providing a custom service like O'Neill used to. I haven't done it myself, but I have hear that it is possible to trim and re-glue neoprene back together.


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## Red Creek (Feb 27, 2013)

I have always taken comfort in the chest protection aspect of the vests. The places where I hunt has a lot of subsurface timber that could really harm a dog.


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> Hopefully Bob Owens is reading this and will think about providing a custom service like O'Neill used to. I haven't done it myself, but I have hear that it is possible to trim and re-glue neoprene back together.


Anyone with experience doing this please post up..JD


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

The Cabela's vest on my dog fits as Jennifer described for her dog. It also gapes around my dog's neck and is too long.


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

I took my dog vest and dog to a local seamstress, appropriate glue in hand. I bought the glue from a dive shop. We put the vest on the dog. The seamstress was able to - relatively quickly - make the marks needed to taylor the vest (pun intended, the dog was named Taylor) to the dog. I left her the vest, she made the cuts and glued the seams, and I picked up a custom-fitted dog vest.

It was a relatively inexpensive process, the seamstress did a great job, and Taylor used that vest for years. Like Jennifer's dog, Taylor was a big dog with a big chest. The front of the vest, though, gaped open like Mitty's dog vest and the tummy area was too loose. Both of those areas were custom fit to Taylor. Although NM is rarely as cold as some places, the San Juan River is chilly. The dogs retrieve with ice slush on the river without problems.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Good Dogs said:


> I used a neoprene vest on my golden bitch in temps as cold as -12F. As others have stated her coat and body were warm to the touch under the vest. As important, IMO, the vest helped protect her when climbing in and out of ice. (We hunted a few times on a river that was icy in the backwaters but open in the flow.)


First go to a dive shop, get the wet suit repair glue and make the vest fit well. The go diving yourself and see how a wet suit works. Even a poorly fitting one does a lot for you. 

Next let me say I saw a dog in KS while hunting a river that almost gutted itself. Big wide and continuous was the cut from lower rib margin to well under the same side hind leg. Sharp ice can do horrible things which is what I see as the danger with thin ice that a dog can break.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

In order to accommodate various sizes would some type of internal drawstring(s) help snug the vest?


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## 36bound (Feb 12, 2013)

A vest *and* a used military wool blanket ($20 from a military surplus store) to keep him warm between retieves. As any outdoorsman knows, wool retains much of its insulating value even when wet. Put me in the extra cautious catagory.


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## tzappia (Aug 21, 2008)

36bound said:


> View attachment 16270
> 
> A vest *and* a used military wool blanket ($20 from a military surplus store) to keep him warm between retieves. As any outdoorsman knows, wool retains much of its insulating value even when wet. Put me in the extra cautious catagory.


That's the idea behind the S.U.G.A.R. Coat. I have one and really like it.


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## Hogw1ld (Mar 27, 2012)

At the bottom of this post is something that Rick Hall posted on duckhuntingchat. Unlike Rick, I had to have my wife add bar stitching at the ends of the new seams. The "glue" held, but the neoprene wanted to tear behind it.

My pup appreciates it:









The only time it doesn't fit snug all over is if she is sitting kind of hunched over:










Not much you can do about that. We hunt in some nasty stuff. I keep her out of the water unless she is working. Never had a problem. I forgot her vest once and could tell a huge difference in her comfort level.




> ailoring a DogVest
> 
> Getting an off-the-shelf vest that actually fits your dog correctly (snug everywhere, but not tight anywhere) would be a remarkable fluke. Even with a design like Cabela's wide Velcro fastener that affords an inch or two of adjustability zippers don't, the vest won't be fully functional without tailoring.
> 
> ...


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## DukDog (Mar 4, 2012)

I have used a vest for years and think that they definately help keep my dog warmer than without a vest. He wears his most of the season as long as it is not too warm out (which it usually isn't). When it is really cold I even leave it on in the heated truck on the way home just to warm him up.Then when we get home his momma sometimes has warm blankets out of the dryer to cover him up with. He is pretty spoiled but when he spends all morning retrieving ducks out of the river with ice chunks in it, I think he deserves it.I have also been looking at the S.U.G.A.R Coat lately as my dog just turned 11 and I think it would be nice for the boat ride in and out and also when things are slow in the blind.Back to the original post if you are looking for input on a vest, one thing that I would not recommend is a zipper. They are a pain. Plus they do not let you adjust how they fit from time to time. I would prefer just a nice wide piece of velcro that would allow some adjustment.


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## Yellow Dog (Apr 15, 2012)

That's crazy to even think that a neoprene vest doesn't help and could be counterproductive. It just doesn't even make common sense. That is unless the vest is loose fitting on the dog where water can get down in. 

With that being said, I still take extra caution when hunting my dog in cold weather. I don't let him stay out in the water very long and I towel his exposed areas off completely after each retrieve. I also use a SUGAR coat which helps to keep the cool air off of him as well. I highly recommend a SUGAR coat!


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## Tim Culligan (Nov 21, 2007)

If the vest is snug fitting it does help! I have an old cabelas vest that when removed my dogs fur is almost totally dry under it! The key is that it must be properly fitted!


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## scothuffman (Nov 14, 2012)

Back in my younger days here in So Cal we used to get our dive suits custom made. I wondfer if there are any dive shops that would be interested?


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

There presently is not a vest commercially available for dogs that keeps the water out very well (& with a dog's fur it is unlikely under even the best design intents). Every dog I have ever seen in a vest gets wet under the vest while in the water. But the purpose or claim of any of the current vests available is not to keep the dog dry. That is not to say that current vests are ineffective. I think a dog vest can help a dog stay more comfortable in cold hunting conditions & can also protect from unseen snags etc. However, the most effective means to keep a dog from hypothermia is to provide a place where the dog can be entirely out of the water & out of the wind except when retrieving. A vest will never help a dog that is expected to sit or stand in the water - and hypothermia is virtually guaranteed in prolonged cold water conditions if the dog can't get out of the water entirely. I have hunted with several guys with dogs who expect their dogs to remain in the cold water for hours hunting & they have the false perception that a vest will help in that situation. So yea, have your dog wear a vest in cold or rough conditions. It will provide comfort and scratch protection, but don't expect that vest to allow your dog to hunt any longer or stand in the water.

As for design, regardless of how effective a design improvement may be, there will always be commercial considerations. That means if the improvements cost more money most folks aren't going to buy them.


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## BobOwens (Jul 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the comments(I read them all)- I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought wearing s vest is crucial to our dog's safety. The main issues my vest will fix will be the fit and durability. Some of the ideas that were thrown out are great and need to be considered. My first prototype will be in before Christmas. We'll break it in hard and take what we learn to the drawing board. Next round will go to a bunch of pro trainers to put on multiple dogs and a few hardcore hunting guides. Should be exciting!

I think the main thing we, as hunting dog owners, need to be aware of it that our dogs are designed to go all out! They won't quit until you do and that's how we want them! We have to have a head on our shoulders, recognize the dangers of cold water & frigid temperatures and protect the dog at all costs. I'd be crushed if something happened to him and I could have prevented it! 

These vests are a great tool and as long as they fit properly, they can allow you and your dog to remain in the field doing what you enjoy. Thanks for the comments, ideas, and two cents.


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## axegothic3 (Jul 20, 2013)

Even on milder chilly days the difference with and without the vest is noticeable, you would not be able to convince me that a neoprene vest is not one of the most important tools for your dog(more important than heaters in the boat)!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BobOwens said:


> Thanks for all the comments(I read them all)- I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought wearing s vest is crucial to our dog's safety. The main issues my vest will fix will be the fit and durability. Some of the ideas that were thrown out are great and need to be considered. My first prototype will be in before Christmas. We'll break it in hard and take what we learn to the drawing board. Next round will go to a bunch of pro trainers to put on multiple dogs and a few hardcore hunting guides. Should be exciting!
> 
> I think the main thing we, as hunting dog owners, need to be aware of it that our dogs are designed to go all out! They won't quit until you do and that's how we want them! We have to have a head on our shoulders, recognize the dangers of cold water & frigid temperatures and protect the dog at all costs. I'd be crushed if something happened to him and I could have prevented it!
> 
> These vests are a great tool and as long as they fit properly, they can allow you and your dog to remain in the field doing what you enjoy. Thanks for the comments, ideas, and two cents.


Hi Bob,

I'd love to talk with you live on the phone sometime soon.

Please let me know when you are available. Maybe we can chat this week.

Thanks, Chris


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

Hogw1ld said:


> At the bottom of this post is something that Rick Hall posted on duckhuntingchat. Unlike Rick, I had to have my wife add bar stitching at the ends of the new seams. The "glue" held, but the neoprene wanted to tear behind it.
> 
> My pup appreciates it:
> 
> ...


Thank you for cross-posting the Rick Hall post. I want to try to tailor-fit my dogs vest, for a good fit. I will do some googling on modifying divers wet suits. I look forward to Bob's research and subsequent posts. JD


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## Taterboy (Oct 16, 2011)

Having been a diver and scuba diving instructor for many years I will offer a few comments. Generally Mgatc sumed up the benifits of a wet suit very well. It should be recognized that wetsuits were designed to be used underwater and they are the most effective in this environment. Above water they are less effective as an insulator. Specifically one of the draw backs of a wet suit on land is the material covering of the neoprene holds water and then becomes a very effective evaporative cooler. Due to the evaporative cooling effect of the material many suits designed for intermitten water use such as wind surfing and surfing use a "skin" outer. These suits have no or limited material covering the body core and exhibit a smooth latex type surface that sheds water immediately thus reducing the evaporative cooling effect.

My ideal neoprene dog vest would have a cordura material covering the neoprene on the chest and belly for protection and a smooth skin surface over the ribs and back. Varied thickness of neoprene should be considered such as thinner more flexible material around the neck to allow a snugger but not constrictive fit, this approach could also be used around the belly and front legs. Gussets with velcro adjustments around the belly and neck similiar to the velcro cuffs on a jacket could be used on the neck and belly. These may be new ideas for a dog vest, but it is stuff that has been used in wetsuits for active sports for years. Come to think of it I can't think of anything more active than my dogs.

Chris


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Great fit on the RiversWest. Old boy Chucks vest and other rubbers not so good


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

JDogger said:


> Thank you for cross-posting the Rick Hall post. I want to try to tailor-fit my dogs vest, for a good fit.


I want to thank you, too, as I'd lost my copy of that in a computer crash and been too lazy to retype it. (Have a new Cabelas vest on hand and plan to shoot some illustration when I tailor it.)

I believe it misleading to talk about "trapping" water in any wetsuit, unless, perhaps, it includes boots and mitts. What wetsuits and properly fitted dog vests do without those is slow the transfer of heat-sucking raw/outside water across the dog's body. The looser the vest (or more holes/handles), the more raw water transfer it will allow. The better the fit, the less heat will be pulled from the dog by raw water transfer.

As for Pup not being able to shake off what water is retained under the vest, I've found that a non issue, as it plainly drains out of the vest, and Pup is drier sooner, thanks to his body heat under the vest. I'm reminded of this daily in season, when after the last bird is retrieved, we pack up, make the ten minute boat ride out and I remove the coyote's vest at the boat house to find the fur under his vest warm and nearly dry, while the fur outside it is still cold and wet.


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## Hogw1ld (Mar 27, 2012)

Rick, 

You're little tutorial was a lifesaver. Thanks. As you can see, my pup is quite lean. I had to take a ton of material out of the belly and shoulders. We're in our second hard season and the seams are holding up great. I'll probably have to do it again before next season. The vest has taken a beating on barbed wire, ice, etc...saved the girls some stitches for sure.


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## thelast2 (Dec 7, 2012)

BobOwens said:


> I think the main thing we, as hunting dog owners, need to be aware of it that our dogs are designed to go all out! They won't quit until you do and that's how we want them! We have to have a head on our shoulders, recognize the dangers of cold water & frigid temperatures and protect the dog at all costs. I'd be crushed if something happened to him and I could have prevented it!


That about sums it up, if the young man you referenced in your original post was the actual owner and wasn't just passing on story's of others, he doesn't need to own dogs. To have two dogs succumb to hypothermia is just negligent.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

just my thoughts but...I too am a little unsure of vests. Overall I think they do the job intended. I do use them. However, where I have some skeptical thinking is NOT in the water. I live in northeast SD..it is cold here. As I type -10 with a -37 windchill. My dogs have never really had much issue with making a retrieve in cold water. Where SD is famous for is the wind. So when the wind blows as the dog sits and waits for next retrieve, I've actually noticed my dog shiver more with the vest than without. I'm assuming they are not allowed to dry off properly therefore the icy winds zip through. Just my observations.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

vergy said:


> just my thoughts but...I too am a little unsure of vests. Overall I think they do the job intended. I do use them. However, where I have some skeptical thinking is NOT in the water. I live in northeast SD..it is cold here. As I type -10 with a -37 windchill. My dogs have never really had much issue with making a retrieve in cold water. Where SD is famous for is the wind. So when the wind blows as the dog sits and waits for next retrieve, I've actually noticed my dog shiver more with the vest than without. I'm assuming they are not allowed to dry off properly therefore the icy winds zip through. Just my observations.


I think the opposite. I believe the waterproof-windproof neoprene blocks the wind and protects the dog better than just his wet coat. I wouldn't worry about a dry dog too much either way. I believe the only good argument against using a vest is the hooking up on a submerged stick or something, where I hunt that's not an issue, but it could be for those of you who hunt stick ponds.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

Well could be. Labs and chessies (not sure about goldens or others) are suppose to have oily hair to allow water to slide off etc. A dog with a proper coat can shake and be fairly dry naturally in a short time. I've always thought dry is better. But, i contradict myself because I do use the vest as well. I have a hard time fully believing they don't work. Like said earlier...seems my dogs shiver a little more with them on thats all.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

vergy said:


> Well could be. Labs and chessies (not sure about goldens or others) are suppose to have oily hair to allow water to slide off etc. A dog with a proper coat can shake and be fairly dry naturally in a short time. I've always thought dry is better. But, i contradict myself because I do use the vest as well. I have a hard time fully believing they don't work. * Like said earlier...seems my dogs shiver a little more with them on thats all*.


I know; it seems like all our opinions are based more on anecdotal personal experience, and what seems like common sense than real scientific study. I wish we could just ask our dogs what feels better. I just know from personal experience actually wearing wetsuits in and out of the water, they really do cut the wind and hold warmth in.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

makes sense. And you're right...wish we could just ask them..lol!


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Saw one made by rivers West at the Mossy Oak Store. It is made out of fleece would like to know how well they work. 

I use a vest for my dogs when it gets real cold . I belev they work


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## HNTFSH (Feb 7, 2009)

saltgrass said:


> Saw one made by rivers West at the Mossy Oak Store. It is made out of fleece would like to know how well they work.
> 
> I use a vest for my dogs when it gets real cold . I belev they work


In this thread.



Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> After using a RiversWest fleece vest for going on two seasons I'm leaning on saying they are better than neoprene. When I take it off the coat is almost dry. I down time it seams they wick water away from the coat. I take the vest off and her coat is warm and almost dry. Have one fleece and two neoprene on the kids. So far, rotating it between my dogs different coat types, it seems to work better, appears more comfortable and drys out faster than the rubber. Also has a little floatation although I don't think they need it. The RiversWest Definately has a better cut for my chessies than my Cabelas and Avery vest. The Avery is already faded and has nicks and cuts. Plus the zipper sucks


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Hey pops,did you see that cripple just dive? Don't worry I GOT THIS!


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

John Robinson said:


> I know; it seems like all our opinions are based more on anecdotal personal experience, and what seems like common sense than real scientific study. I wish we could just ask our dogs what feels better. I just know from personal experience actually wearing wetsuits in and out of the water, they really do cut the wind and hold warmth in.


But a Lab with a good coat has his own "wet suit" which keeps his skin warmer & drier. I too use a vest, primarily for abrasion protect but would love to have some scientific data, like temperature at skin level on the same dog with & without a vest, exposed to the identical conditions.


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

labman63 said:


> hey pops,did you see that cripple just dive? Don't worry i got this!


rotflmao :d


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## Loran Marmes (JR) (Jan 19, 2013)

hardest thing for me is finding a vest that fits good. My pup is pretty small so i bought a large goin of the measurments recommended. Too tight in the chest and big in the neck, not sure how do get a better fitting vest.


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Buy the correct chest size and tailor the rest according to the instructions offered a page or two above.


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