# List of tested EIC Affected or Carrier Dogs.....



## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

Please use this thread to list your dogs that have been tested by the Univ. of Minn. in their EIC study. Please list only your dogs full name and whether they are a carrier, or affected according to the testing done by the Univ. of Minn. No rumors or assumptions please. Please do not list "clear" tested dogs, as there is another post for that, and it still leads to a guessing game.

I'll start.........just maybe some more folks will do the same and quit hiding. Wanted a new clean thread for this. My reasons for coming public are that I know of litter soon to be on the ground that has my dog's dam in it, and want buyers to be cautious. Not sure of sire's stud activity as of late. 


HR Boss Man's Blackwater Revenge - "Rocco" - EIC "Affected" - Univ. of Minn. Test Study

Owner of Rocco: Brian Carmody/aka:Tall Gunner

Edited: Removed parents per forum owners request......


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

I'd suggest caution on listing Carriers unless there is some supporting info (like you know they produced Affecteds). What if this is like the original marker test for PRA that over stated the number of Carriers and Affecteds? 

And how do we make use of the info if the Affected's dog's name is not listed on OFA or elsewhere? Not all subscribe to Good Dog.....


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

windycanyon said:


> And how do we make use of the info if the Affected's dog's name is not listed on OFA or elsewhere? Not all subscribe to Good Dog.....


HuntingLabPedigree.com is free BTW.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

heaven forbid we should find out which pairings are producing AFFECTED individuals, which is what happens when a list of affected pups is developed......

do what's right for the dogs. don't worry about the human side of the equation. -paul


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

windycanyon said:


> I'd suggest caution on listing Carriers unless there is some supporting info (like you know they produced Affecteds). What if this is like the original marker test for PRA that over stated the number of Carriers and Affecteds?
> 
> And how do we make use of the info if the Affected's dog's name is not listed on OFA or elsewhere? Not all subscribe to Good Dog.....


I see nothing wrong with an owner listing their "carrier" dogs if they have been tested. It will hopefully lead to more questions being asked of the sire and dam because one of the has to be a carrier as well.


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## mouth plumber (May 10, 2005)

"Maxx's Apparition" Tested positive on both sets. Classic symptoms of EIC. Affected. Test done by University of Minnesota. 
Owner Dr. Steve Becker DDS


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## Montview (Dec 20, 2007)

Oops...edited since you were asking for "affected" or "carrier" dogs, of which I have neither. Sorry!



windycanyon said:


> And how do we make use of the info if the Affected's dog's name is not listed on OFA or elsewhere? Not all subscribe to Good Dog.....


I don't subscribe to Good Dog, but have listed on Labradata.org. OFA won't accept test results yet from University of Minnesota, since the test isn't commercially available. At least, that's what they told me. They *will* thankfully, list CNM results, which we have on our dog's OFA page (along with lots of other clearances). I would guess EIC results will be following shortly...


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

mouth plumber said:


> "Maxx's Apparition" Tested positive on both sets. Classic symptoms of EIC.
> Parents; Ebonstarr Lean Mac X Peakebrooks Apparition


I salute you sir..........maybe more will post now! I'm assuming, and I hope you clarify, that your dog tested EIC "Affected". Just to be clear.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Yardley Labs Beadle Gypsy Shadow -- AKC# SR44935604 (Details on my website at http://yardleylabs.com) -- Tested positive (i.e. affected) for EIC by U/Minn following two collapses. 

Text of U/Minn report sent 6/19/2008 of blood sample:



> *Exercise Induced Collapse (EIC) in Labrador Retrievers – Genetic Research.*
> 
> Recent research by Drs. Ned Patterson and Jim Mickelson at the University of Minnesota has identified a candidate causal genetic mutation that is highly associated with susceptibility to EIC. We define EIC as a condition in which collapse usually occurs after 5 - 10 minutes of intense exercise and/or intense excitement. The first signs of an impending episode are typically weakness or wobbliness, especially in the rear legs. Most of the time, when a dog with EIC collapses they return to normal with 15 - 30 minutes of rest.
> 
> ...


While I am known primarily by my "signature" name of Jeff Goodwin, my legal name is John Jeffrey Goodwin.


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## Russ (Jan 3, 2003)

San Telmo Tucker de Abreojos still will collapse withEIC. He was whelped 11/5/1998. He has been tested by the U of Minn and has both recessive genes (affected). His sire is Dare to Dream and dam is Hightest No Excuses Tule.


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## mouth plumber (May 10, 2005)

Yes he tested "affected"


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

HR Boss Man's Blackwater Revenge - "Rocco" - EIC "Affected" - Univ. of Minn. Test Study

Owner of Rocco: Brian Carmody/aka:Tall Gunner

Edited: Removed parents per forum owners request......


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Sorry, Tall Gunner. I know you had high hopes for Rocco. Thanks for posting the truth.

Anyone who owns a dog can legally post it's registered name, registration number, sire and dam, and EIC results if you post how you know-U of MN test, veterinary diagnosis...

Thanks to all who post-it's important.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Tall Gunner said:


> I see nothing wrong with an owner listing their "carrier" dogs if they have been tested. It will hopefully lead to more questions being asked of the sire and dam because one of the has to be a carrier as well.


Yes and no, but I don't think you (and maybe Paul) follow what I stated.

Back when Optigen first came out w/ the PRA test, it was a marker test (just as I'm gathering this EIC test is). It overstated the Affecteds and Carriers. It was correct on Clears, however. When they found the actual PRA GENE, they re-ran everyone's test from stored blood samples from the past, and lo and behold, some of the original affecteds came back as Clear or Carrier status, and some of the Carriers came back as Clear. Some folks had spayed or neutered their dogs in the meantime as a result of the negative initial test results.  I personally know of one dog that was tested Affected initially but was updated to clear a couple years later. Owner of course had her spayed based on the first test.

So, IF this EIC test is changed (remember, it's only the experimental version that any of our dogs were tested with), some Carrier data MAY not be correct. It may still change if it is indeed a marker test (some chemical or segment of DNA associated w/ the disorder) vs the actual Gene test. That's why I suggested that the Carriers or Affecteds be substantiated in real life. Clear?


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

Very clear............thank you

Keeping my dog's testicles intact regards, 

TG


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Yes and no, but I don't think you (and maybe Paul) follow what I stated.
> 
> Back when Optigen first came out w/ the PRA test, it was a marker test (just as I'm gathering this EIC test is). It overstated the Affecteds and Carriers. It was correct on Clears, however. When they found the actual PRA GENE, they re-ran everyone's test from stored blood samples from the past, and lo and behold, some of the original affecteds came back as Clear or Carrier status, and some of the Carriers came back as Clear. Some folks had spayed or neutered their dogs in the meantime as a result of the negative initial test results.  I personally know of one dog that was tested Affected initially but was updated to clear a couple years later. Owner of course had her spayed based on the first test.
> 
> So, IF this EIC test is changed (remember, it's only the experimental version that any of our dogs were tested with), some Carrier data MAY not be correct. It may still change if it is indeed a marker test (some chemical or segment of DNA associated w/ the disorder) vs the actual Gene test. That's why I suggested that the Carriers or Affecteds be substantiated in real life. Clear?


VERY good point. Especially since we know that the CNM test has been "tweaked"..... nothing is 100% perfect.


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## Bud Bass (Dec 22, 2007)

RMR's Alaskan Grand Slam, eic affected, U of Mn test shows both bad genes
sired by 2xNAFC FC AFC Candlewoods Ramblin Man 
and Chickamauga Raz Matazz MH
Bud


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## Jayne (Dec 23, 2007)

Hopefully Katie Minor U of M will see this thread and answer if the test is going to be tweaked? I believe on another thread quite some time ago, that question was asked and the answer was the test they have now is the test they will use when it is open to the public.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Jayne said:


> Hopefully Katie Minor U of M will see this thread and answer if the test is going to be tweaked? I believe on another thread quite some time ago, that question was asked and the answer was the test they have now is the test they will use when it is open to the public.


But that won't necessarily answer the question, unless of course, she can tell us that, indeed, they have THE GENE isolated. I think Optigen thought their marker test was accurate at first too but they were off on some results. That said, a marker test is better than nothing.


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## Rodney Crim (Feb 18, 2005)

windycanyon said:


> But that won't necessarily answer the question, unless of course, she can tell us that, indeed, they have THE GENE isolated. I think Optigen thought their marker test was accurate at first too but they were off on some results. That said, a marker test is better than nothing.


I thought they found the gene??? Am I wrong????


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## LabLady101 (Mar 17, 2006)

I agree with Anne (windycanyon) that unless a dog has actual symptoms, it's best perhaps to just use the results of this test smartly and not take drastic measures until everything is substantiated.

That said, I will list my own carrier girl: Bel Air Blue Chip Of Kinderwood JH CGC (FC AFC Cuda's Blue Ryder MH x Bel Air Brown Chip JH). Now, I'm just taking her carrier status with stride because it is purely a research result at this point and I will have to have her retested once the official one is available. I suspect/speculate (but cannot in any way confirm) that her carrier status came down through her dam who is sired by FC AFC The Man In Black (a son of "Maxx"). However, it could have just as easily come from her sire line. I have no way of knowing. All I can do is breed her as smartly as I can, because I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater- especially based on a research result for now.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I would like to thank those who are posting the results for their carrier or affected dogs. I think they are doing a service to the retriever community in making this information public. My dog has not been tested and I probably will never breed him. If I do decide to breed him (really not likely), I will test for EIC (it will be available by then I presume), CNM, hips, eyes and elbows.

I feel for those with affected dogs, but I thank you for making it public.


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## Katie Minor (Sep 19, 2005)

The commercial test will be the same test offered during the research phase. The test is specific for a mutation within the coding sequence of a gene.


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

Deep from my heart I thank you Katie, and all that have worked hard on this serious issue. The folks that really care about the dogs, commend you and your efforts 1000 times over.


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

Madisons Mississippi Maggie tested affected for two copies of EIC gene by UM and can be seen in the short video having a collapse. Parents pulled per admin


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

Dogguy said:


> Madisons Mississippi Maggie tested affected and can be seen in the short video having a collapse. Parents: NCF Patton x Wild Hares love sick lucy (out of Bubba).


Thanks for helping.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2008)

Wow, it is really great to see such a response among the community regarding EIC. 

This may be somewhat off subject, but I'm wondering if anyone that has a dog affected by EIC has had success with any treatments of any kind to prevent episodes of EIC.

Brian
UT


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

From what I've read, there are a # of treatments you can give your dog. Not all work on all dogs.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

My four year old, Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH, is an EIC carrier. (U of MN testing - summer 2007)

Jim Boyer


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

KwickLabs said:


> My four year old, Kwick Kooly Dew It Allstar SH, is an EIC carrier. (U of MN testing - summer 2007)



Thanks bud!


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## BLAZE ELAM (Apr 29, 2004)

When do they expect to have a EIC test availible.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

The EIC test is not yet officially announced. It was part of a study and I know that many of you have results from your study. I commend those of you wanting to share your test results from this study. 

I can see negative ramifications potetially resulting from the posting of results of this study that came back other than "clear".

I ask that only owners of "affected" or "carrier" animals do the post.

I ask that the owners: 

1) List verbatim the results as written on the report from the laboratory. List the verbatim name of the laboratory or othe official who reported the results.

2) List the Sire and Dam of the affected animal ONLY IF they have permission from the Sire and Dam's owners... OR if they have positive DNA evidence of unadulterated parentage of the alleged parents. 

If anyone has listed sire and dam of their allegedly "affected dogs" in this thread without the conditions in #2 satisfied, I ask that they remove the mention of sire and dam promptly.

3) List their own full name in the body of the post listing these results.

************************************

Why am I writing this?

As much as I love my friend Paul Young, I have to disagree. I spent a few years in the diagnostics field. I was on the Sales and Sales Management end, not the technical side. Nonetheless, I learned just enough to be dangerous.

Sensitivity and Specificity are two aspects of a diagnostic test that are sometimes altered or adjusted. In layman's terms, these are what can and do result in "false positives" or "false negatives". I have no idea what the situation is with the testing that has been done for EIC, but *as of yet, this is not an officially released test. *

It is entirely possible that some of the dogs previously found to be "carriers" are actually not. It is also entirely possible that a thread such as this one, becomes a modern-day sort of a McCarthy-ist hit list, falsely "incriminating" dogs, negatively impacting reputations, and perhaps needlessly generating avoidance of certain specimens from breeding.

I feel that the public posting of dogs that tested as "clear" is much safer, although potentially, in the end, equally hazardous. 

As much as we want to believe that there's a magic test that can find all potential hazards and dangers that our pups may inherit, we are not there yet.

Bottom line guys and gals: RTF is here for you guys to share, learn, build, etc. It is not here for folks to be defamed, financially hurt, or otherwise penalized. 

I offer up that RTF, it's owners, moderators and hosts are not responsible for the words and actions of its users. All folks posting on this board need to be fully responsible for their own actions and words. 

Thanks for your consideration.

Chris


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

You are correct Chris-not only sensitivity and but specificity with false negatives and false positives. The study pool may be too small or skewed by the population studied. Tweeking a labratory test may have to do with the testing materials or timing being changed (buffers for instance) for better enhancement as what probably happened with the early CNM test. I have personally found that quality control is sometimes not as stringent in veterinary testing as it is in human testing. In humans there is a joint commission that oversees quality control and there are reference labs that send out samples routinely to see how well the results correlate with the reference value therefore laboratory standards come into play. This is not to say this test is accurate but these are some of the matters among others that may delay the official release of the test.


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## SMITTYSSGTUSMC (May 12, 2008)

Can I still seend blood to this test ???


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

SMITTYSSGTUSMC said:


> Can I still seend blood to this test ???


No, they quit taking samples as of July 1. Hopefully as mentioned a public test will be out in two to six weeks.


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## gunnercam (Dec 10, 2007)

yesterday i was doing some yard work and I started to feel kinda dizzy after working for a couple of hours. maybe my parents are eic carriers???


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

Why are people making this so complicate? Once again, from the U of M website (bold added):


> *Our work at the University of Minnesota identified the chromosomal location of the EIC gene* during a “genome scan” with “DNA markers”. In this genome scan DNA markers that are present at known and unique locations on each of the dog chromosomes were used to identify specific patterns of inheritance of these chromosomal segments in DNA samples from hundreds of dogs. By examining the inheritance pattern of these DNA markers in multi-generation Labrador Retriever pedigrees where EIC was present, *we eventually identified which chromosome contained the EIC gene*.
> 
> The DNA of several candidate genes in this small chromosomal region that are involved in muscle and nerve metabolism and function was sequenced, and a mutation in one gene that is very strongly associated with EIC was identified. This is a compelling candidate causal mutation for EIC due to the critical role of the protein encoded by this “EIC gene” in synaptic communication between nerves in the central nervous system.


and


> EIC appears to be a genetically simple trait that is due to a mutation in just one of the approximately 24,000 genes present in a dog’s genome. We have designated the letter E to indicate the mutant form of the EIC gene and N to indicate the normal form of this gene. Every dog has two copies of this gene, one inherited from the dam and one inherited from the sire. Every dog inherits either the N or the E form of the EIC gene from each parent.
> 
> A dog’s particular combination of E or N forms of the EIC gene is known as its genotype. The genotype of a normal dog that is clear of the EIC mutation is designated as N/N. Our data thus far shows that dogs with the E/N genotype do not typically show either strong or consistent signs of EIC. E/N dogs are referred to as carriers or heterozygotes. More than 95% of dogs that have the classical signs of EIC, and have had multiple well-documented collapse episodes, have the E/E genotype. Such dogs may be referred to as homozygotes for the EIC mutation.
> 
> *All parents of dogs with EIC that we have tested so far are either E/N or E/E. *This means that the parents are either unaffected carriers of the mutant EIC gene, or they are homozygous for the mutant EIC gene and therefore genetically susceptible to EIC themselves.


The test will be out soon. All this talk of false positives and false negatives and test accuracy are a red herring. This research is coming from a reputable lab and their work has undergone peer review to get it right. The test is taking time to make sure that they get it absolutely right. If affected dog's names and their parents are posted and the pattern is repeated you have to call a duck a duck. Are false positives/negatives a concern, sure, but come on folks this test will be incredibly accurate compared to other "tests" that help make breeding decisions like OFA and CERF.
Post the name of your dog here and make sure that you post their lineage on good dog info or get them OFA'd. Resourceful retriever people can figure this all out independently and RTF and good dog will have no liability.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Chris,

I have modified my posting as you requested. I agree with your request in part. 

I am not a fan of posting carrier status unless it is in the context of advertising a dog for breeding purposes. My concern is that the carrier designation appears as a blemish on the reputation of both parents. However, the odds that either parent was the source of carrier gene (50%) is hardly greater than the percentage of the overall tested population identified as carriers (>40%). I also agree that it is irresponsible for someone other than the owner of the affected dog to publish that fact either here or on Good Dog Info.

A finding that a dog is affected according to the clinical test, in combination with clinical findings of EIC, is a different matter. As long as the University's finding that this is an autosomal recessive characteristic holds up, then both parents are clearly carriers. Requiring explicit DNA proof of parentage seems excessive given that the AKC does not require positive DNA verification for any other purpose and such identification is not possible unless both parents have been DNA profiled. 

In my case, I notified the breeder within hours of my pup's first collapse, again following the second collapse, and sent a copy of the University report as soon as I received it. I did not identify either of my dog's parents for a week after I notified the breeder. I do not believe that the breeder is in any way responsible for the fact that my dog is affected with EIC. There was no way at that time for him to know that his bitch was a carrier or that the stud was a carrier. 

I myself bred a litter of pups not too long ago with a dog that I now, thanks to RTF, know is also a carrier. I have no way of knowing if my bitch is a carrier, so it is possible that I have also unknowingly bred EIC affected pups. I hope I did not. If I did, I am truly sorry and I hope that the owners of the affected pups will contact me and publish the identities of their pups so others will know. 

I have been very thankful for the threads that have appeared over the last few weeks concerning EIC affected dogs because I have learned more in this period about who is a carrier than I was able to learn during the prior year of asking questions.

The information I have received has changed my breeding plans. I have no doubt that I will continue to breed EIC carriers. However, I cannot responsibly take the risk of breeding an EIC affected pup. I must therefore know that at least one of the dogs in the breeding is EIC clear. So that RTF can remain a valuable source of information during this _transitional_ period, I would ask that you modify your restriction to permit the _owner _of an affected, AKC registered dog to publish the results of the testing along with an identification of the AKC registered parents without requiring DNA proof of parentage.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

not sure what we disagree on Chris; in my post i only referenced AFFECTED dogs in my post. 

if they show symptoms and were part of the study group, i don't think the statistical chances of a false positive are very great. presenting symptoms serves to validate the test result, at least to me.

CARRIERS are another issue....-paul


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## goin2drt (May 9, 2008)

I am a newbie. At this point reading all this is very new to me. I would like to know a couple of things to protect my lab if god for bid he has this EIC.

1. Can someone specifically tell me the symptoms, do they show any signs before collapsing?
2. Do the dogs actually just collapse or do they sort of just come and lie down as if they are tired.
3. If your dog does collapse, what should you do to treat them? Take them to a vet, rest, water etc.

Thanks and if this is the wrong post to ask the question, sorry. I am just concerned about my dog.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

goin2drt said:


> I am a newbie. At this point reading all this is very new to me. I would like to know a couple of things to protect my lab if god for bid he has this EIC.
> 
> 1. Can someone specifically tell me the symptoms, do they show any signs before collapsing?
> 2. Do the dogs actually just collapse or do they sort of just come and lie down as if they are tired.
> ...


You can find a lot of detailed information including an article by Dr. Susan Taylor and a video of a dog having a collapse at http://www.cvm.umn.edu/VBS/Faculty_Biographies/Mickelson/lab/eic/home.html.

1. Before a dog collapses it is likely to show some signs of being stiff legged or wobbly in its back end.

2. Collapses vary in severity. In my pup's first collapse she lost control of her hind legs. However, she remained fully alert with tail wagging and was still trying to rejoin the game by pulling herself with her front legs. Symptoms lasted about 30 minutes and then ended with no residual effects at all. Her second attack was more severe. She fell over almost without warning during a retrieve. She was alert and could lift her head but was unable to move her body at all. I took her to the emergency vet where her temperature was 109 degrees. She was placed on an IV drip of Dextrose and placed in a cooling bed. It was two hours following her collapse before she could stand normally and she remained subdued for a few more hours. There were no residual effects.

3. For a mild collapse there's no reason to do anything. For a more severe collapse my vet chose to treat it as heat stroke.

The best prevention is to recognize the symptoms and cease all activities when your dog shows any signs of difficulty. Have you dog tested when the test is available. 

For most people, EIC is unlikely to be a serious issue. As of now,the trigger for my dog appears to be playing games with me and my other dogs. She remains in training and has shown no ill effects during training even with relatively long retrieves and with extended swimming time during swim by. As of now, I am hoping that she will be able to run hunt tests at least at the junior/senior level but that remains to be seen. She is an extraordinary marker and loves the game. I am sorry that she will never be able to run derbies or field trials as I has originally hoped and thought. However, I believe she should still have a great life.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

paul young said:


> not sure what we disagree on Chris; in my post i only referenced AFFECTED dogs in my post.
> 
> if they show symptoms and were part of the study group, i don't think the statistical chances of a false positive are very great. presenting symptoms serves to validate the test result, at least to me.
> 
> CARRIERS are another issue....-paul


You're right Paul.

I was not very clear . 

You wrote:


> heaven forbid we should find out which pairings are producing AFFECTED individuals, which is what happens when a list of affected pups is developed......
> 
> do what's right for the dogs. *don't worry about the human side of the equation.* -paul


The bolded part is my concern. I do have concerns about the human side, given the fact that the test being discussed is not yet on the market. Also, for this test that is not yet on the market, parentage is not absolutely verified without data. (hence the "out" of getting permission from sire and dam owners to post)

I am fine with folks using RTF to post their results from the study. I just ask that they post the results as written on the report that came back from the lab. 

The last thing I want to do is protect anyone knowingly throwing bad genetics. On the same lines, I would hate for a dog and its owner to feel persecuted or defamed based upon an inaccuracy.

Until the test is released, I think we need to treat the data properly. That's all.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> Chris,
> 
> I have modified my posting as you requested. I agree with your request in part.
> 
> ...


I'm addressing the portion in bold text above.

This is a test that is not yet on the market. A University did development work and sent out results. I am asking that folks who want to post their dogs with results other than "clear" follow a few basic precautions.

Is it possible for a puppy out of a supposed breeding to have parents other than those listed on the pedigree? I maintain that it is. And if we are going to post dogs that are being flagged by this yet unreleased test, and also identify their parents, I'm asking that you do this one of two ways:

A) through permission of sire and dam owners

B) with DNA evidence that the two parents to be listed are without a doubt the sire and dam of the puppy whose results are being posted.

Guys and gals, it is great to want to have clear dogs and I applaud that. But this is a test that is yet not on the market. Samples can get confused, the wrong sire can get at the bitch in heat, puppies from litter A can wind up getting mixed with litter B, etc. 

So of you are going to try to post information that's as accurate as can be, I ask that you do exactly that. And while doing it, have some consideration for those who your post may be affecting.

When the test is on the market, it will likely be a very different story. If you really want an EIC database, doesn't it make sense that the organization offering the test, maintain the database?


Chris


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'm addressing the portion in bold text above.
> 
> This is a test that is not yet on the market. A University did development work and sent out results. I am asking that folks who want to post their dogs with results other than "clear" follow a few basic precautions.
> 
> ...


Amen chris!!! ;-) Otherwise it can turn into just another "witch hunt".

Angie


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

Chris, what about a Sire and a Dam, that have now been documented by the Univ. of Minn. study, that have thrown two affected EIC pups. Not only is my dog affected, a litter mate as well. I would have to say that's there is no mix up here. Anyone could reasonably conclude that said Sire and Dam are EIC carriers. As more are tested, more factual cases such as this one will strenghten the test results, not weaken them with possible cautions of errors. Of course, my sire and dam aren't well known FT players either. But, beyond that, it almost all FT with some NFC's mixed in as well. I removed the parents of my dog per your request, though I don't agree with your philosophy simply because all one has to do is search good dog info. or the other free site and you can find the answer. What purpose does actually keeping it off the forum serve? I'm sure it lessons your burden, but I think more good than bad can come from allowing the parents to be listed freely. Some of these dogs are not entered in good dog, so in reality the hushed are hushed again. 

Trying to tame my tone regards,

TG


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Is it possible for a puppy out of a supposed breeding to have parents other than those listed on the pedigree? I maintain that it is.


Chris,

It seems to me that confidence in parentage is the heart of pure bred dog sports. Do we trust the AKC registry or not? 

If we are going to question dog's parentage with tremendously high hurdles on this issue, shouldn't we also do the same it for advertisements for puppies, started dogs, etc. ? 




> When the test is on the market, it will likely be a very different story. If you really want an EIC database, doesn't it make sense that the organization offering the test, maintain the database?


I agree with you on this, but apparently the U of MN sees its role as limited to offering a diagnostic test to those that want it. It is my understanding that keeping a public database is not in their plans at all. There will be no "white list" available. 

We need a better option for making information available.

Jeff


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Regarding DNA testing to publish results: CNM testing does require a DNA cheek swab but it's not to verify parentage. I have not participated yet in EIC testing yet and will have to wait until it's available.

If neither EIC or CNM testing to verify parentage only microchip/DNA identification on the individual dog, why is the criteria to publish results more restrictive than the organization's criteria to perform the test?? 

What am I missing here. I just don't see that this is any different from three years ago when we were allowed to publish CNM results... looking for clarification.


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

Using the criteria presented no one is going to be able to post their dog's parents even after the test is commercially available unless there is proof of parentage via a DNA test. As has been pointed out, this criteria does not apply to any other testing (e.g. CNM, OFA, CERF) 

The breeder of the dog is responsible for signing the papers to certify the lineage of the dog. If a breeder wants to dispute the lineage or a test result for an "affected" dog let them. 

Again, why is this so difficult? If your dog is affected and the U of M test results affirm this, *both parents are carriers* to a high degree of certainty. If someone chooses to post that their dog has tested as affected that is good information upon which to make informed decisions. I respect the idea of not posting parents here because we can all be resourceful enough to find out the parents from several other sources.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Henry, Terry, Jeff,

This is a test that is not yet on the market.

Again, it is great that folks want to post results of a developmental test. What I want to avoid is a witch hunt.

McCarthy-ism was not all that good.

On another thread, we have a guy who claims to want it to be all about the dogs, yet he is endorsing violence and assault against certain people. 

Surely with the kind of tone that individual has shown, you guys can understand my desire to not allow innocent folks to become a victim.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

jeff t. said:


> Chris,
> 
> It seems to me that confidence in parentage is the heart of pure bred dog sports. *Do we trust the AKC registry or not?*
> 
> ...


What I want to avoid is a witch hunt.

This is a test that is not even out on the market yet.

What is so "tremendously high" of a hurdle about getting permission to identify a sire and dam? 

I counter that if it is so easy that anyone behind an alias can make a post on a bulletin board like RTF, that a certain dog out of a certain sire and dam are "affected". 

It would take very little effort for a few folks to trash a reputation of an innocent dog. I'm trying to put some simple checks in place to avoid that for all.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

No big deal if parent's can't be listed - it is not as if you can not use all the other resources out there to figure out who the registered parent's are.....so do as Chris asks, do not list the sire and dam......RTF is a great resource, I'd rather be able to see what information Chris is allowing RTFers to post than none at all.....

FOM


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

frontier said:


> Regarding DNA testing to publish results: CNM testing does not require a DNA test. I have not participated yet in EIC testing, so does EIC testing require DNA test data on sire/dam?
> 
> If neither EIC or CNM testing requires the submitter to require DNA proof to test (only microchip) identification, why is the criteria to publish results more restrictive than the organizations criteria to perform the test??
> 
> *What am I missing here. I just don't see that this is any different from three years ago when we were allowed to publish CNM results... looking for clarification*.


The missing piece is that the CNM test was on the market when folks began posting, and there was a "white list" for all to see. This EIC test is not even on the market yet.

Actually, some of the outfall from the CNM issue is what has given me an increased sensitivity to some potential ramifications of allowing alias-using folks to post "results" freely with absolutely no checks and balances.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Henry V said:


> Using the criteria presented *no one is going to be able to post their dog's parents even after the test is commercially available unless there is proof of parentage via a DNA test.* As has been pointed out, this criteria does not apply to any other testing (e.g. CNM, OFA, CERF)
> 
> The breeder of the dog is responsible for signing the papers to certify the lineage of the dog. If a breeder wants to dispute the lineage or a test result for an "affected" dog let them.
> 
> *Again, why is this so difficult?* If your dog is affected and the U of M test results affirm this, *both parents are carriers* to a high degree of certainty. If someone chooses to post that their dog has tested as affected that is good information upon which to make informed decisions. I respect the idea of not posting parents here because we can all be resourceful enough to find out the parents from several other sources.


I'm not sure why this conclusion is being drawn.

I'm simply asking that if folks want to post their non "clear" results from a developmental, yet unreleased test, that they follow some simple protocol.

What is so hard about getting permission from the sire and dam owners? 

As stated, what I want to avoid is a "witch hunt".


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

Chris,
I understand what you are striving for here but IMHO it is truly unfortunate that posting facts based on the best available data would be considered a "witch hunt" by some people. The secrecy on EIC, CNM, etc. continues to amaze. The retriever community should also be concerned about the "innocent folks" who are unknowingly, despite their best research efforts, walking right into a dog affected by EIC.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Henry V said:


> Chris,
> I understand what you are striving for here but IMHO it is truly unfortunate that posting facts based on the best available data would be considered a "witch hunt" by some people. The secrecy on EIC, CNM, etc. continues to amaze. The retriever community should also be concerned about the "innocent folks" who are unknowingly, despite there best research efforts, walking right into a dog affected by EIC.


Henry, you have written more than once about "why it is so difficult".

I ask you: Why is it so difficult, when someone is going to post results from a yet UNAVAILABLE to the market test, for them to get permission to post parents?

Henry, we all want a silver bullet to show us all the boogie monsters in the genetic closet of our top field dogs. That does not mean it is here yet.

The test is not yet on the market. 

Let's discuss this more once the test is commercially available. Today it is not.

********************************

To Jeff T,

I agree with you completely that those offering the test, should it become commercially available, consider offering at least a "clear" list or database. 

It would seem a shame, should such a test actually be developed and deemed by the medical community to be robust and accurate, that the market would not at least have access to those animals who have tested clear.

Again, the test is not yet on the market, so until it is, perhaps we should not assume too much.

Finally: *The test is not yet on the market.*

Chris


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I'm simply asking that if folks want to post their non "clear" results from a _developmental_, yet unreleased test, that they follow some simple protocol.


I am not sure I understand "developmental". On page 3 of this thread, Katie Minor states that the test used up to this point will be the exact same test used when it becomes commercially available.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

After several episodes and having been tested by U of M results came back positive with both sets of markers.Duckponds Prize Package aka Purdy,grt grand parents all HOF or soon to be.PM me if any questions.

FYI Purdy was not bred by Judy and is not a Duckpond dog.I have permission to use the kennel name.

Jeff Gruber


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Henry V said:


> Chris,
> I understand what you are striving for here but IMHO it is truly unfortunate that posting facts based on the best available data would be considered a "witch hunt" by some people. The secrecy on EIC, CNM, etc. continues to amaze. The retriever community should also be concerned about the "innocent folks" who are unknowingly, despite their best research efforts, walking right into a dog affected by EIC.


I understand what your saying Henry but anyone with a alias can post that they have an affected dog out of FC-AFC Ring a ding and Harriet Houdini MH. Just to "stir the pot" and be spiteful. A internet board where no credability is needed to be a poster is the absolutely wrong place to post any kind of results on any dog IMHO. 

Angie


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Last Frontier Labs said:


> I am not sure I understand "developmental". On page 3 of this thread, Katie Minor states that the test used up to this point will be the exact same test used when it becomes commercially available.


It is not yet commercially available.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> It is not yet commercially available.


 
The research hasn't been published yet, either.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Angie B said:


> I understand what your saying Henry but anyone with a alias can post that they have an affected dog out of FC-AFC Ring a ding and Harriet Houdini MH. Just to "stir the pot" and be spiteful. A internet board where no credability is needed to be a poster is the absolutely wrong place to post any kind of results on any dog IMHO.
> 
> Angie


Good point Angie...and like on one of the other threads there are a couple of other resources where the information could be posted by owners if the commercial testing facility doesn't offer a database of their own... I imagine the issues being discussed here are why the CNM database doesn't list affected or carriers...


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

Chris,

To answer your question, it is not difficult to ask for permission, but I bet it is difficult to get permission. Why is it so difficult to get permission should really be the question.

Please note that I have also posted a couple times that affected dogs could be posted and it is fine to not list the parents because there are other ways to find this information. I do not really care either way. We also have other ways to track EIC thanks to the active group working behind the scenes to track this through pedigrees.

The "difficulty" reference was more in regard to this notion present in some posts that the test is not accurate. This is misinformation IMHO and a red herring from what I have read. Just like this throw up our hands notion that "all dogs have some bad genes so why worry about it". It is very interesting to me that some seem to want to cast dispersions on a test that is probably 99+% accurate yet find it perfectly acceptable to demand "tests" like OFA which is terribly inaccurate and subjective (search "repositioning") in regards to its effects and heritability.

To me, this is all about making informed decisions based on the best available data. I am not naive enough to want some silver bullet. No doubt that a commercially available test will help make informed decisions and will clear the air a bit.


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## Henry V (Apr 7, 2004)

Angie B said:


> I understand what your saying Henry but anyone with a alias can post that they have an affected dog out of FC-AFC Ring a ding and Harriet Houdini MH. Just to "stir the pot" and be spiteful. A internet board where no credability is needed to be a poster is the absolutely wrong place to post any kind of results on any dog IMHO.
> 
> Angie


Very valid point. Add it to the criteria. If you want to out your own dog list your own name.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Henry V said:


> Very valid point. Add it to the criteria. If you want to out your own dog list your own name.


It's already there.

That's why I'm trying to get some "teeth" behind the notion of while someone is "outing" their own dog, that they've done some due diligence on "outing" the sire and dam.

My goal is to avoid any negative outfall on folks/dogs that don't deserve it.

Chris


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## Karen McCullah (Feb 28, 2007)

I have read about EIC and known people who had dogs with it, but never SAW it until today. I clicked on the link to U of Mich website and saw the video. 
Now I don't feel so good....my heart goes out to anyone who has a dog suffering from that. 

While I think TG's heart is in the right place, I agree with Chris, be responsible for yourself and no one else.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Wiredlabz said:


> I have read about EIC and known people who had dogs with it, but never SAW it until today. I clicked on the link to U of Mich website and saw the video.
> Now I don't feel so good....my heart goes out to anyone who has a dog suffering from that.
> 
> While I think TG's heart is in the right place, I agree with Chris, be responsible for yourself and no one else.


Wow, that video is tough...not as tough as the CNM video IMO, but it would be very hard to watch your own dog go through that. At least for the dog in the video it looked like a dog having an episode of EIC would also be a candidate for other injuries to the hind legs and feet based on how the dog just kept going and exposing his uncoordinated rear limbs to the terrain.


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## Karen McCullah (Feb 28, 2007)

I have read about EIC and known people who had dogs with it, but never SAW it until today. I clicked on the link to U of Mich website and saw the video. 
Now I don't feel so good....my heart goes out to anyone who has a dog suffering from that. 

While I think TG's heart is in the right place, I agree with Chris, be responsible for yourself and no one else.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Geez people-this is not that difficult. Say Thank You to Chris and RTF for helping those who want this information, and respect the way he would like it handled! 

Your first and last name 
Your dog's registered name/number
Why you have "proof"-U of MN study, episodes, veterinary diagnosis

That's it-and that's enough. If you are not willing to list your name, don't list your dog. If your dog is not on OFA's website, you can post his/her pedigree somewhere, and add a link to it, or you can answer PMs about the sire and dam. 

Let's try to play nice and not have this, or other threads with this information, locked or deleted.


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## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

The video link was very helpful and put my mind more at ease about EIC in my dog. I have seen nothing of this type in her two years of training and I've heard that EIC is in her bloodline so I am awaiting the test since I missed the trial. Surely there will be some sort of "official" list in the future, similar to the CNM "white list".


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

Here is my girl at about 9 moths old having an ALLEDGED EIC collapse (no test yet) as stated she did test positive for both EIC genes. Seems strange stating she tested positive for something there is no test for!!


http://www.vidilife.com/reloc.cfm?cryp=010-03A99271-B9F3-4BF6-BC9D-B/url


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

Hambone your pup's mom is tested and came back clear. So at worst Gynni would just be a carrier. 

.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Dogguy said:


> Here is my girl at about 9 moths old having an ALLEDGED EIC collapse (no test yet) as stated she did test positive for both EIC genes. Seems strange stating she tested positive for something there is no test for!!
> 
> 
> http://www.vidilife.com/reloc.cfm?cryp=010-03A99271-B9F3-4BF6-BC9D-B/url


Thank you. It was based on having seen that video before that I was able to immediately recognize what was happening to my pup when she had her first "mild" attack. Unfortunately, even her mild attack left her unable to walk at all for 25-30 minutes. The scary part was that she had just managed to get to shore as her attack began. With three dogs playing around, I don't know if I would have reacted quickly enough to save her had she still been swimming in the pond. To give further credit, I only saw that video because it was on RTF. Neither my trainer or my vet would have understood what was going on otherwise and the whole event might have been dismissed or mis-diagnosed. Thank you Chris and RTF.


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Hambone said:


> Surely there will be some sort of "official" list in the future, similar to the CNM "white list".


Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that there will be an official list.

According to this link

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/VBS/Faculty_Biographies/Mickelson/lab/eic/faq.html



> 12. Will there be a list of clear dogs, similar to the CNM “White List”?
> No, we will not be maintaining a list of clear dogs. However, the website http://www.LabraData.org provides a database to maintain records for all Labradors at no cost. This is a voluntary posting website, and is not affiliated with the University of Minnesota.


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## Art Geddes (Aug 30, 2003)

The best solution will be in the hands of the educated puppy buyer. We do not need a list to be published, it will never be all inclusive. Instead if a breeder will not produce evidence of a non affected litter, do NOT by a pup from that litter. There are plenty of non-affected litters out there to choose from and it will not take long for a breeder to start demanding the same from the stud owners just as we do with hips and CERF, CNM etc. 
I write this havinghad a most likely affected dog who went the pain of quite a few collapses. As buyers we can greatly affect the solution with our money. 

Art


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

Dogguy said:


> Here is my girl at about 9 moths old having an ALLEDGED EIC collapse (no test yet) as stated she did test positive for both EIC genes. Seems strange stating she tested positive for something there is no test for!!
> 
> 
> http://www.vidilife.com/reloc.cfm?cryp=010-03A99271-B9F3-4BF6-BC9D-B/url



Man, how I feel for you. My dog's EIC would be considered mild compared to what you are going through. I hoping and praying mine doesn't get worse, and with the heat now, he's pretty much going to be spoiled inside dog with little training for the next two months. 

I'll say a prayer for your pup.........drop me a pm. 

On another note.......I'm not angry or mad with my breeder/dam owner or the sire owner. I don't think they had a clue. I play with the cards that were dealt me. The reason I'm upset about this whole issue is the breeders/trainers/owners that new about EIC, or it's unnamed sydrome and they continued to breed these high profile dogs. That my friends is what I am upset about. 

Hey, I'm about done with it. The hush has once again come over the board and I will be moving on soon as I can't seem to post in a tone that is acceptable to Chris. If I can help anyone, please PM me. If anyone has information they wish to share with me, please pm me. I will help in return if I can. 

Thanks to you folks that were brave enough to post your results. I know it wasn't easy, but believe me, you did the right thing. Chris has squashed any potential this thread may have had, intentional or not, the damage has been done. I strongly suggest that all enter the dogs information at gooddoginfo. That is the best source going now! 

Again folks, use the pm's..........


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

Tall Gunner, you owe Chris an apology. He is not saying you can't post your own dog-he is saying be responsible about it, and protect him (and yourself) from liability. Unfortunate that has to be a consideration, but it does. Be grateful for this resource, and take advantage of what you can do here-the information will still get out. People know how to find a dog's parents, or can ask privately. Just because it isn't done your way doesn't mean it's not good.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Tall Gunner said:


> Man, how I feel for you. My dog's EIC would be considered mild compared to what you are going through. I hoping and praying mine doesn't get worse, and with the heat now, he's pretty much going to be spoiled inside dog with little training for the next two months.
> 
> I'll say a prayer for your pup.........drop me a pm.
> 
> ...


You have a PM coming from me TG,


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## DebM (Jul 8, 2008)

I am new to all of this. We just figured out yesterday what is most likely going on with our dog. We are kind of in a tizzy about all of it right now. I have not had any testing done, but by research and videos of dogs with EIC, it looks like that is what is going on. So...will we be able to hunt our dog? Have any of you tried the medications listed on websites, and if so, have they worked? Should we start looking for a new puppy to be used for hunting? Any information will be helpful.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Deb, 

You need to read the information about managing a dog with EIC...there is a range in regard to the degree of being affected. I do know that upland hunting can be a trigger for some dogs and should be avoided if that is the case. However, I have also heard of EIC affected dogs that collapse while swimming. Naturely, that would a disaster. Another thing to note that is when there is an episode or you can tell that the dog is getting ready to collapse, you should cease all activity for that animal immediately. 

Until you can actually get a test result confirming EIC, you cannot rule out other ailments altogether. 

If you can pin down what activity triggers the attack, I would avoid that activity entirely. Stress and excitement can be triggers also...


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## Jayne (Dec 23, 2007)

Deb,

Dr. Patterson at the U of M diagnosed my dog with EIC and was then put in test pilot. He was confirmed by the U of M to be affected. I asked Dr. Patterson, Dr. Taylor (Canada) and Dr. Rice Stillwater Vet Clinic if any of the cocktails would work. The answer was not likely. I was told if I continued to trial, train or hunt him, he very likely could die. Not a chance I personally wanted to take. Also, I tried to look at the video but it wouldn't work for me. My dogs episodes were different than the standard described by the U of M. Cash would barley show the slow gait but would come back exhausted and lay on his stomach. He then would lay down and be pretty much comatose. Eyes open, couldn't move. His episodes were not that frequent but when he was tested his temp was 107.7. So just to remind people not all EIC affected dogs show the same symptons.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Maybe I missed it, but how do we know that the video is of an EIC Affected dog?


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

I believe the bolded text indicates the dog in question was tested




Dogguy said:


> Here is my girl at about 9 moths old having an ALLEDGED EIC collapse (no test yet) as stated *she did test positive for both EIC genes*. Seems strange stating she tested positive for something there is no test for!!
> 
> 
> http://www.vidilife.com/reloc.cfm?cryp=010-03A99271-B9F3-4BF6-BC9D-B/url


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Just for my information, could one or more of the vets on board here confirm that we are seeing a EIC Affected dog?


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## Tall Gunner (Apr 17, 2007)

No need for that, the test, not real test, well almost real test, revealed that. Actually those are classic symptoms more on the severe side......I ain't no vet......just seen it in real life.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

TG

I would like some independent confirmation that the video is what people says it is.

No more, no less. 

Ted


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Just for my information, could one or more of the vets on board here confirm that we are seeing a EIC Affected dog?


Unfortunately both of my dog's collapses were even more severe than the one shown. I tried to videotape a collapse by my dog but ended up having to rush her to the emergency vet instead to save her life. It took 7 minutes of fun bumper play with two of my other dogs to bring on the attack. Her diagnosis was confirmed by the U/MN test as posted earlier in this thread.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jeff

I would simply like a vet to confirm.

Ted


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

TS to let you know two vets checked Maggie out when she first started collapsing. One was aware of EIC and the other was not but after several test and seeing the video, both stated that was the most probable diagnosis. Since there was no test at the time 2005 that was all I had (a probable diagnosis). I then supplied a blood sample in the same year to UM. Late last year I was provided with an email that stated Maggie affected with EIC based on her having the two mutated genes. If you or anyone else has a question feel free to pm.

Michael


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## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> Jeff
> 
> I would simply like a vet to confirm.
> 
> Ted


Im a financial advisor and i see that dog cant walk. looks like eic to me.


not trying to fan the flame regards,

warren


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I can see the dog cannot walk, too.

But, how am I to know that the cause is EIC?

Still waiting on a vet to confirm


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## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> I can see the dog cannot walk, too.
> 
> But, how am I to know that the cause is EIC?
> 
> Still waiting on a vet to confirm



I know. just being a wise guy.


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## Rushdawg1 (Apr 11, 2004)

After reading and watching I would have to agree its EIC........I AM NO VET BUT I DID STAY IN A HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT..........................................................


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## Stylesl (Feb 1, 2004)

Ted,

I am not a vet. And I know my response will not directly answer your question about a vet review.

Try this, review the video of a dog exhibiting EIC symptons from the U of Minn site. Yes, it does take a minute to load.
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/VBS/Faculty_Biographies/Mickelson/lab/eic/home.html

Then look at the other home made video posted earlier. Then take a laptop to your vet and let them view the films and ask for their professional opinion of these behaviors. 

Please share with us your vets response if possible.

Lisa


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## Dogguy (Aug 22, 2005)

Please let me clear some things up. The video is of 1 of 2 EIC collapses that I intentionally induced back in 2005. Maggie will go down on the third maybe forth happy dummy out of a launcher, put other dogs around and it could happen faster. I can put this dog into a collapse at any time I want.


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