# School Removes Gun Picture from Sons Project



## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

So what would you do?

My son is 5 years old and is in a pre-k program. This week he was the star student so he was asked to put together a poster board with pictures of what he likes to do. Basically take a snap shot of his hobbies and put them on the poster board. He took it in to school Monday. It was hung up outside the classroom door for all to see. The problem comes in when several parents complained because one of the pictures was of him hunting with me, he had his orange vest on holding his 410 pump shotgun. So since they complained they cornered my wife when she was picking up my son on Wed and made her and my son color over the gun with a marker. To say the least I am extremely upset and can not believe that they would make my son feel like he had something wrong on his board. I am raising my son to appreciate the outdoors and our country. There is no school policy that is written or that has been verbally expressed about this and they told my wife that they would be adopting a new school policy so that this issue would not arise again.

So to I am sitting here trying to determine what I should do.. To think the very place that is suppose to be partnering with me is tearing apart the values that I am trying to build in him. The other issue is my wife loves the school and thinks that I am crazy.

What would you do? Am I over reacting ?


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

No you are not over reacting. I would be mad to. However I don't know if there is anything that you can do.


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## Gawthorpe (Oct 4, 2007)

Hi Kirk:
I once lived in Alpharetta also. This sounds like a great opportunity to help your principal, teacher and your son understand your constitutional rights.

Also hats off to you for being an active father.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Bigger question is your school " Public " or "Private"???
I'm going to guess private and sorry to say nothing you can really do about ...Money talks

You are not over reacting I will feel the same way you do, but unfortunately that's the society we now live in..."Money talks"....:2c:


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

I really want to make a strong point that gets my point across rather than just getting pissed. The sad part is that the anti side has that much power. It kills me that my son thinks that there was something wrong with his picture. He was so proud of his board. I could potentially see if there was a pile of dead ducks or deer or something. But all that was there was a kid having a great time with his Dad. Take a look at the pic attached.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

There probably isn't much you can do, but I'd let them know how you felt. Hunting is a great tradition and kids ought to have a chance to do it.

I'd try to tell his teacher, and whoever else was involved in the decision to make your son and your wife color out the hunting scene, what you've told us here in this thread. In about the same tone of voice you've used here.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> It kills me that my son thinks that there was something wrong with his picture. He was so proud of his board. I could potentially see if there was a pile of dead ducks or deer or something. But all that was there was a kid having a great time with his Dad. Take a look at the pic attached.



Shouldn't matter if it is a dead deer, a pile of ducks, a wild pig, elk, moose, what ever, I don't have kids and never will BUT I do know ( I'm 39) not that long ago it was ok to bring pictures of Dead stuff to school, and show and tell with me in class was always an adventure.. Pretty much all Fall I had Shotgun in my car so I could go for a walk after Football practice.

Times have truely changed for the worse


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

UN F"IN REAL!!!

Buncha PinHEADS!!

Thats a PUBLIC SCHOOL,,, FUNDED by Tax payers.?

Your son is protected under the Constitition ,and the Bill of rights to freedom of speech and expression!!

You are NOT over reacting in anyway!!

Hunting, and love of the outdoors is a culture and tradition in this country. Let some Public official CENSOR the expression of "OTHER CULTURES "we are told to respect,, and all He!! would break loose!!

I would be down at that School,, and have that Pin [email protected]# Principal by the scrotum!!

Whens Enough gonna be enough folks???

You give that boy a yers a big hug,, and explain to him He didnt do a damned thing wrong!!

Wheres my blood pressure pills!!

The days are a commin

Gooser


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

I got Gooser's back . I would take a mortgage on the house to sue all involved / NEVER TAKE A BACK SEAT..
I 'll kick in the first $50 for the lawyer regards ,,,\
JK


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Gooser I hear you. That is exactly how I felt when my wife called me Wed. I have been trying to cool off some before I confront the situation. I am glad to see that I am not alone on how I feel about this.

Take a look at the video from the trip that the photo was taken. It is a parent child deer hunt at Berry College in GA. It is great to see the boys having a great time enjoying the outdoors and spending time with each other and their Dad's. It is a shame that most do not take the time to enjoy the outdoors much less spend time with their kids. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWRz-kUty5A


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Gooser fronts the second 50!!

Gooser


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## Pierce2988 (Nov 5, 2009)

That makes no sense at all, I guess people don't want their kids to know that guns exist. This is why people kill people with guns no one knows how to use them. Its people like the ones who have problems with your boys picture who shoot themselves or someone else in the face. It is dispicatble that some kids parent would have the intestinal Fortitude (used in place of an expletive) to make your kid feel like he did something wrong. I would go to the school at the least and tell the Principle, How good of a job he was doing. ;-). Then tell him that the state cut his funding. Bet you can at least ruin his day.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Frankly, I don't think children should be placed in the middle of adult confrontations created by intolerance. Parents have a responsibility to be proactive and protective. 

Wouldn't it have been much easier to talk beforehand? "You know some people are going to act funny about that picture. It means the world to me, but there are others who might not understand."


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## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

Give good ol Ted a call. He'll straighten out the school.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

A police officer friend of mine saved a man's life by chance because he was out duck hunting in the right area at the right time. He said letters commended him on pulling this guy out of the swamp but there were also a few letters from people that he had no right to be killing ducks. It is the mentality of some out there now. I would talk to the principal and have the principal talk to your son and explain to him personally that he was doing nothing wrong by hunting, but unfortunately there are some people that have different views of guns, and that he was lucky to have a father that was teaching him the proper use of guns and doing it as a family. If the principal refuses then tell him you are going to exercise your rights and write a few letters. It's all about your boys self esteem and not feeling bad, and maybe he will understand there are just some people in the world that don't understand about hunting, like PETA. It's a different world.


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## Ken Parrott (Feb 5, 2005)

Must be regionally different on what is tolerated and accepted. That picture would have no problems here in my area. In fact it happens all the time. 
I am a teacher and I can tell you that as a parent I would be upset with that teacher. There is nothing wrong or threatening with the picture at all. I would definetly meet with the principal over this one.


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## seandcso75 (May 12, 2009)

I work in Law Enforcement and I can tell you what is killing this country: Bleeding Heart Liberals!!!!! When armed suspects have more rights than the cops I think we need to re-evaluate our direction as a nation. Perfect example... a cop shoots an armed suspect who just robbed a convenience store and the "people" want the Officer fired or charged criminally because the suspect didn't shoot first? I am sick and tired of the few speaking for the majority because the majority are too afraid to say anything because they will be labeled as a bigot, racist, or just too darn indifferent. Kirk if I were you I would absolutely refuse to "color" over the gun. Your child is doing what he loves to do...Go hunting with his daddy!! If those SOB's can't understand that then it's time to find a new school. Or better yet HOME SCHOOL. At least at home he will get a much broader education, one instills morals and values. Sorry but this thread just set me off.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> ["You know some people are going to act funny about that picture. It means the world to me, but there are others who might not understand." /QUOTE]
> 
> Too F'n Bad!!!
> 
> ...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Must be regionally different on what is tolerated and accepted.


We are All AMERICANS!!!

Why is a PICTURE of a days Hunting, something that needs to be "TOLERATED"??? What is offensive about that??? Who needs the education?

To the family that does find that offensive~~ Then they sit down to dinner and have a meal~~~ SOMEBODY had to club the beast for them thats all~~ But they sure do derned well still eat dont they!!



Gooser


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## seandcso75 (May 12, 2009)

MooseGooser we need to have a beer together and talk about what's wrong with America. I would probably have to call in sick the next day though because we would be talkin' a long time.


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

Similar thing happened to me years ago about truth etc- My son and his 6yr old buddy helped me and a friend butcher two of our pigs one sunday- at show and tell next day my son explained what we did- teacher called me to say my sone was making up stories for S&T- i said no that's what we did- she hung up- i called school and got it straight- lucky we lived in a rural area and prinicipal understood what we did how- and why- teacher never did liike me but kept her mouth shut from then on about hoe folks lived/ acted on farms.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Boy Kirk I'd really have a problem with this. I would talk to the principal with the teacher present. It's not acceptable the way this was handled.

I'm so glad my kids grew up where they did. My son a avid hunter went to a private catholic high school in rural Pennsylvania. He and his "hunting buddies" would take their rifles, shot guns and bows uncased through the front door of their school and check them in at the principals office so they could leave after school and go hunting without going home first.

Also all the county schools were closed for the openning of deer season and trout season.

Hunting and fishing were a big part of the culture there. There wasn't a whole lot else to do....

Angie


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

OK, here's my take, as a parent who has kids in school.

The most important issue IMHO--no IMO, as I am not in the least humble about this--is how it affects your son. So I think a solution needs to be found that affirms the validity of his love for hunting with you.

The second most important issue IMNSHO (in my not so humble opinion) is to seize the opportunity to change some "hearts and minds." You don't do it by bludgeoning people, but by planting the seed of an idea in a manner that doesn't threaten them. The driving force behind intolerance (to hunting, animal agriculture, or anything else) is unfamiliarity.

It is always good to start by being nice. (Think of Patrick Swayze, "be nice....until it's time to not be nice.") The teacher, principal, administrators ought to be open to your pointing out how damaging it is to your son to ostracize an activity that is legal, ethical, and traditional, entails learning safety and responsibility, and which is a special family activity which you have taught him with thought and care.

They also ought to embrace the ideas of "diversity" and "tolerance." These are not just liberal buzzwords about supporting racial minorities. They are about learning to accept that other people may live differently or make different choices. It doesn't do kids any good to grow up thinking only people who are "just like them" are acceptable.

So...if it were me, I would try to sell the teacher and the administration on creating a "teachable moment" where your son gets to talk to the class about his hunting activities, maybe with props, maybe supplemented by a presentation by you (designed to win hearts and minds, not convince people they're being jerks). I would challenge them to frame it in terms of promoting acceptance of diversity, as well as to be more attentive to this in general. I would make sure you are there, whether you make a presentation or not, to ensure that the adults show and model approval of your son's presentation and his hunting interests.

Amy Dahl


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't have any kids, but I must confess that I'm surprised to hear of a 5 year old child having access to a shotgun, even with adult supervision. 

Heck, I think I was considerably older before I even had a BB gun.


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

Talk about timing.

My daughter came home with with a Star bag yesterday. We too are to include photos on her poster. Let's see how this one plays out next week.


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

It would be hard for me to hold my cool! I don't have kids, but in that situation I believe my wife WOULD NOT have caved in and had the kid color over the gun. If the kid got expelled for those appropriate pictures, then I dont think that is the kind of school ANY American child should attend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO WE DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT IT!!!

Steve


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

seandcso75 said:


> MooseGooser we need to have a beer together and talk about what's wrong with America. I would probably have to call in sick the next day though because we would be talkin' a long time.


Can I come? This is exactly whats wrong with our country. I have a 6, 10 and 13 year old that all have interests in hunting. Abby even got her first deer this year. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47875&highlight=first+deer And when she did I posted it everywhere. If someone would have made her destroy the pictures she took to school--- Well, someone would take a gravel bath. 
Hunting has been around forever and if people don't stand up and say "There is nothing wrong with hunting" someday it could be gone. I can remember in high school (grad 1990) I would go turkey hunting before school and then go to school around lunch. My gun would still be in my truck and I would walk into school with my camos on carrying a gym bag with my school cloths in it. And this was at a private catholic school where I was one of the few that did hunt. My point is-- as little as 20 years ago it was ok to hunt and have guns. If a student did that today they would be in jail. Its all bulls#!!. 
The problem is parents don't educate their children. I grew up in a house with a shotgun and 22 in the corner by the door. And guess what I never touched it unless I was told I could. Today you're expected to keep all guns including the high power BB guns in a 3" thick concrete safe. I have a neighbor that has 2 children about the same age as mine who does not hunt.( him or her). A couple of years ago I took there kids to a JAKES day function where their boy won a Rossi 20/22 ga combo. I took it over and they said to sell it because they did not want any guns in the house. So I keep it here at my house and the kids shoot it, with me supervising. 
If you educate children about guns you take away the curiosity factor. They know what is allowed and not allowed. But this country is taking the stand of putting our heads in the sand and trying to forget guns exists-- and there is nothing wrong with them.
Heres the kicker. My neighbors, She is a owner of a preschool down the road educating the youth of tomorrow. And he is now someone who spent sometime with me in a duck blind this year. And he has my Nova at his house. I feel like maybe I'm doing some educating now.
Joe


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

jeff t. said:


> I don't have any kids, but I must confess that I'm surprised to hear of a 5 year old child having access to a shotgun, even with adult supervision.
> 
> Heck, I think I was considerably older before I even had a BB gun.


Jeff, I think your wrong. Teach the kids at a early age-- Just like we do our DOGS. What a concept!!!
Joe


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## Matt Gasaway (May 22, 2009)

My mom is a kindergarten teacher back in my home town...You'd be surprised at some of the stories she tells me about some of her kids. And I mean this is a well respected county rural based school. I know my mom would have a tolerance for it (not talking up my mom) but obviously she delt with me growing up . With that aside, some of the stories she tells me about kids and the things they say and do just amazes me. Kirk, you should be proud your son has a passion and interest in hunting with his daddy. Alot kids these days dont. And kids not having enough or any positive hobbies or activities they enjoy is what causes kids to turn out a little off the mark IMO. What you do with the situation Kirk is your choice. BUT either way be proud of yourself for raising a kid the right way and teaching him about responsibility and safety and tradition.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

When I was in 8th grade we had hunter education during school "at "school. Times have sure changed.


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

This thread is proof why we as hunters must be PRO ACTIVE . DO NOT take a wait and see attitude , or its OK ,this will pass attitude. Our way of life is being attacked every day . 
If you haven't done something proactive , you are part of the problem . Look around , and look in the mirror.Hold yourself accountable. And YOU will make a difference. And then you will like what you see .


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## Nate L (Jul 21, 2008)

Make a new poster. Incluse these pictures with the hunting shot of your son. I bet they won't make you censor these pictures of armed, radical, revolutionaries! I'm so tired of hearing about who feels uncomfortable, what's not fair.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

To add a little levity to the thread, but not to minimize it in anyway, but rather to make Miss Dahl smile;

Original post stated!:


[QUOTE]The other issue is my wife loves the school and *thinks that I am crazy.*
[/quote]


I feel yer pain!!!
cept My wife is convinced!!

Gooser


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> To add a little levity to the thread, but not to minimize it in anyway, but rather to make Miss Dahl smile;
> 
> Original post stated!:
> 
> ...


 
I feel yer pain!!!

Gooser[/quote]

Ditto!! My wife has been thinking that for going on 15 years.
Joe


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I have adopted the stance that while we love what we do for our hobby, we don't publicize it to the world. No sense having some idiot who doesn't have a clue take a negative action against us because we mentioned what we do on Saturdays. People are incidious and will do things behind your back because of whatever "impression" they have of you, so outwardly, we keep impressions neutral. That's not to say that we shouldn't be proud of our traditions, and if asked, feel free to discuss them, but we don't put it out there. I have even gone to the extent of having most, if not all my clothing NOT be camouflage. We pull the camo on leaving th truck but we're not wearing it if we stop at the sandwich shop...

Sometimes it just makes sense for people not to flaunt certain things. Again, that's not to say there's anything wrong with it, but kids might as well learn what the real world is like. Unfortunately, the real world is full of intolerant and ignorant people who let thier emotions run their decision making process, so a youngster might as well get started in thinking about how they interact with folks right from the very start. 

This from a guy who historically flew in the face of whomever approached him, and talked without a filter for years... I try hard not to do that any more...


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

Darrin, I understand what your saying and I've tried to the same in the past. But, is this one of the reasons its getting worse and having more issues with people not accepting hunting as OK? Maybe if it was more visial the people who are in the middle would tolerate hunting better. I'm not saying to throw the bloody deer over the hood and drive down Main Street. Because I don't agree with that. Just a thought.
Joe


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Times sure have changed. When I was in High School my school was a city block from my house. I would take my shotgun to school and leave it in the principal's office and when school was out and the busses had left would blow my whistle and in about 5 minutes would have a couple of Pointers show up. Then me and the principal would go bird hunting behind the football field. Aw the days when we still had "common Sense".


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> I have adopted the stance that while we love what we do for our hobby, we don't publicize it to the world. No sense having some idiot who doesn't have a clue take a negative action against us because we mentioned what we do on Saturdays. People are incidious and will do things behind your back because of whatever "impression" they have of you, so outwardly, we keep impressions neutral. That's not to say that we shouldn't be proud of our traditions, and if asked, feel free to discuss them, but we don't put it out there. I have even gone to the extent of having most, if not all my clothing NOT be camouflage. We pull the camo on leaving th truck but we're not wearing it if we stop at the sandwich shop...
> 
> Sometimes it just makes sense for people not to flaunt certain things. Again, that's not to say there's anything wrong with it, but kids might as well learn what the real world is like. Unfortunately, the real world is full of intolerant and ignorant people who let thier emotions run their decision making process, so a youngster might as well get started in thinking about how they interact with folks right from the very start.
> 
> This from a guy who historically flew in the face of whomever approached him, and talked without a filter for years... I try hard not to do that any more...


You need not "fly in their face, but are you hiding who you really are? Getting out of camo to go get lunch ? That'll be the day .....And to suggest to a child they can't be themselves will stop the child from developing into balanced individual.
Have the child versed in the individual freedoms this great nation was founded on regards......


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## Jason Anderson (Nov 10, 2009)

This type of thing is spreading all throughout this country. The more rural, simple folks that actually have values and spend time with their kids are pushed aside by rich snobs. They build their fancy developments with mcmansions every acre, and they have no work ethic let alone probably don't tie their own shoes. I am from Connecticut and am only 23 and it kills me to see the things that have changed even since I was in school. I was riding my bike over 5 miles to school when I was in 3rd grade, parents would probably go to jail for that now. A lot of places out here have extra helpers on every single bus that are required to get out and walk all the way to the back of the bus at every single stop!! One more note, I was very fortunate to grow up on about 50 acres and it has made me who I am. How can anyone these days live on a farm without inheriting it? I'm not a millionaire! Sorry I think i'm venting. Time to move further north to VT, NH, or NY.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I was lucky when my kids were in school that during deer season teachers expected most of the students to be out of school deer hunting and had assignments for them and a light week. I don't know if it's the same with all the new subdivision people here now.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I have adopted the stance that while we love what we do for our hobby, we don't publicize it to the world. No sense having some idiot who doesn't have a clue take a negative action against us because we mentioned what we do on Saturdays. People are incidious and will do things behind your back because of whatever "impression" they have of you, so outwardly, we keep impressions neutral. That's not to say that we shouldn't be proud of our traditions, and if asked, feel free to discuss them, but we don't put it out there. I have even gone to the extent of having most, if not all my clothing NOT be camouflage. We pull the camo on leaving th truck but we're not wearing it if we stop at the sandwich shop...
> 
> Sometimes it just makes sense for people not to flaunt certain things. Again, that's not to say there's anything wrong with it, but kids might as well learn what the real world is like. Unfortunately, the real world is full of intolerant and ignorant people who let their emotions run their decision making process, so a youngster might as well get started in thinking about how they interact with folks right from the very start.
> 
> This from a guy who historically flew in the face of whomever approached him, and talked without a filter for years... I try hard not to do that any more...


I thought I was the only one who did that. My wife wont even let me go out with a hat that has about a 3 inch square of camo on it. Also orange is off limits in public.

Over the summer I was training someones lab and he was telling me how he loved to hunt and that he would love to take his 7 year old boy hunting. Then he went on to tell me how is son is totally against hunting. 

When I asked why he just shrugged and said "he doesn't like killing animals."

Where do you think the kids are learning this stuff?


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

I think this is getting blown way out of proportion....PRE-K...to me means DAYCARE...pay by the parents, NOT a PUBLIC School, a privately owned & funded BUSINESS. therefore the OWNER has a right to say what is acceptable on his/her property..ie classroom door.....correct me if I'm wrong here...
Kirkd


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## Jo Ann Reynolds (Jul 2, 2007)

John Kelder said:


> This thread is proof why we as hunters must be PRO ACTIVE . DO NOT take a wait and see attitude , or its OK ,this will pass attitude. Our way of life is being attacked every day .
> If you haven't done something proactive , you are part of the problem . Look around , and look in the mirror.Hold yourself accountable. And YOU will make a difference. And then you will like what you see .


This is one of the best responses to this thread, that and the teachable moment one and ahdal's. What happened to this boy should not have happened. But the proverbial horse has been out of the barn for a long time now and we do live in a different world where so many people don't even know where their food comes from, much less how to harvest it themselves that this is what we've come to. Fewer and fewer people live on farms or in rural areas and there are fewer small farms all the time just as there is less open space and places to hunt. It only takes a generation or two of beging removed from the land, either farming or hunting, for decendents to have no connection to it because there is no one to teach it to them. 

The dad in this thread has to work this out the best way he can for his son and family. The rest of us can take our anger and indignation and use that energy to educate and raise awareness. 

Organize a hunting/fishing/farming program in your area for either children or adults. You can do this through your local gun club or maybe even town recreation department.
Write a letter to your local newspaper describing your outdoor activity and how it allows you to spend time together, pass down knowledge, and teach responsibility.
Offer to conduct an in school or after school outdoor program.
Teach the mom's. The NRA has a Women on Target Program which gives women a day long hands on experience with shooting a variety of guns and they'll help you organize one in your area. I've been to two and they are a real eye opener and extremely helpful for the participants.
You can have a big impact on people's thinking at work, too. I'm an anomally to my co-workers because I work in higher education in a very blue town in a very blue state, am a woman, eat organic, and have been called crunchy granola a time or two BUT I hunt and have grown my own food. Every time someone questions me about it I use it as an opportunity to "win hearts and minds". Honey goes down so much easier than vinegar.
Start or serve on a land trust that protects open space and allows hunting on its properties. Studies have shown that children who have access to nature are less fearful of it and are more inclined as adults to enjoy outdoor activities.
Let's make a list of other constructive ideas that if we each did, even every now and then, would make a difference.

It may be too late in this instance for this father to do more than make it known to the principal and the teacher the detrimental impact this has had on his son. But, it's not too late to start raising consciousness in his town and our towns so that maybe this won't happen again.


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

wackemnstackem said:


> I think this is getting blown way out of proportion....PRE-K...to me means DAYCARE...pay by the parents, NOT a PUBLIC School, a privately owned & funded BUSINESS. therefore the OWNER has a right to say what is acceptable on his/her property..ie classroom door.....correct me if I'm wrong here...
> Kirkd


Our school district has a FREE pre-k grade for students held in OUR PUBLIC schools. To me that means I do have a say.
As for the private day cares. If you pay it should matter. If the owners say that a gun picture is not allowed and I am paying and therefore writing their check. Then my money is leaving.
Joe


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

I'd be madder than you know what!! I wouldn't have colored over it and I'd take the fight to the school board. 

It sickens me that this sort of thinking is taking over our schools and particularly in the south which has a long history of hunting and enjoying that past time as a family.

Good luck on your fight.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Desire Dogs said:


> Our school district has a FREE pre-k grade for students held in OUR PUBLIC schools. To me that means I do have a say.
> As for the private day cares. If you pay it should matter. If the owners say that a gun picture is not allowed and I am paying and therefore writing their check. Then my money is leaving.
> Joe



exactly my point...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> If you pay it should matter. If the owners say that a gun picture is not allowed and I am paying and therefore writing their check. Then my money is leaving.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Dont care if its public or private!
> The School requested the project!!
> ...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Wack!

Some states have Pre K programs tht ARE part of public schooling!
Not necessarly day care Paid by the parents!

Diversity means just that!!!

Gooser


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

seandcso75 said:


> MooseGooser we need to have a beer together and talk about what's wrong with America. I would probably have to call in sick the next day though because we would be talkin' a long time.



It would take more than a beer!!!!!!! Better make it a keg!!! At least Pony Keg


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> I really want to make a strong point that gets my point across rather than just getting pissed. The sad part is that the anti side has that much power. It kills me that my son thinks that there was something wrong with his picture. He was so proud of his board. I could potentially see if there was a pile of dead ducks or deer or something. But all that was there was a kid having a great time with his Dad. Take a look at the pic attached.


I wonder if the picture would have been less of a problem if a responsible adult was included rather than a young child alone with a gun?


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, I absolutely agree that pro hunters/gun supporters feel their rights have been stepped on. Those in control at this school (so to speak) have insulted many to satisfy the intolerant "outcry". People in charge do not like waves. However, most of you that are so indignant......don't get it! There is a five year old child in the middle of this. Of course it's all fine and dandy to unwittingly think this is a wonderful time to be proactive and not miss a much needed teaching moment....but most of you don't get it. 

I'm a retired teacher. Children today are much different than when I was younger. They often mimic their parents......surprise, surprise. When I retired, I decided to work with grade school children because my grandchildren were interested in chess. Forty kids showed up and they were so much like their parents it was scary. They picked on each other continually and "mean spirited" to each other would be a mild description of their behavior. Where did they get this? 

To shorten this some......children in school today are extremely vulnerable to peer pressure. Children mimic society with even less control. Placing a child in this kind of pressure packed situation for hours every day can have a telling effect on all but the toughest child. 

So if you want to standup for what you believe is being attacked, go ahead and place your 5 year old in the front lines. From my perspective, that is not a teaching situation I would want to gamble on. Good grief, the kid is five years old!!! It amazes me that anyone in their right mind would think "thumbing your nose" (their view) at someone via a five year old's picture has provided a significant moment for changing society. 

Maybe I don't get it......but righteous indignation is a trap....when little children get caught in the middle. And mark my words, there will be a few (or more) irate, ignorant parents' children that will soon have their naive little minds working overtme......on you know who.....if this continues to be blown out of proportion. Is that what you want? We have to be smarter than that.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quick story!!

I purchased a pair of wingers recently!
I had them set up on the front lawn fitting them with remote devices.

I noticed a family, complete with children ,walking house to house. Very well dressed, and having discussions when my neighbors answered the door.

They made their way to my house, and as expected, they were a family , promoting beliefs that includes a registry of 40,000 that would be accepted in the almightys Kingdom!!

I dont have a problem with this at all,, but that day a was a bit busy,, and I ,,not interested in the discussion at all. The father of the family was very interested in what the "CONTRAPTIONS " on my lawn were for.

I told him He prolly would not like my answere (Hoping for that dont ask ,,dont tell mentality),, and that I was a bit busy,, and needed to get back to work.

His curiosity persisted,, so I told him that in my opnion ,the "day or reckoning" was upon us,, and these "contraptiions", were catapults, designed to throw HOT OIL on my barabaric neighbors for my own self preservation and protection on that final day!!

Immediatly the wife gathered the younguns by the hands and marched off rather quickly!! The Husband was stunned!! he didnt even give me the handout then!!!

I reminded him several times ~~~~ YOU ASKED!!! YOU ASKED!!!

For the first time in my life,, I felt excluded!!!

Gooser


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> For the first time in my life, I felt excluded!!!


Now why would I doubt that? 

Very funny!


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

when I came home from work my husband showed me this thread. Boy did he nail it. There would be no altering of the picture and if that wasn't ok the law would be involved since there was no school rule in place at that time. Apolizies would be demanded for making my child feel like he/she did something wrong and if that didn't happen he/she would not go back. I'm tired of those who say it shows voilence or guns kill people. Where in the you know what do they think their clothes and food come from? Get into reality, there is no fairy that just drops you needs onto your lap. Even if the school did see your way after discussion, I couldn't trust them to be teaching the proper values. 
golden dudes wife, jodi


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

John Kelder said:


> You need not "fly in their face, but are you hiding who you really are? Getting out of camo to go get lunch ? That'll be the day .....And to suggest to a child they can't be themselves will stop the child from developing into balanced individual.
> Have the child versed in the individual freedoms this great nation was founded on regards......



Don't worry, there's no stifling one's individuality or supressing those individual freedoms that people like yourself fought for John, nor is there any lack of patriotism. My son is well aware of my feelings on those topics and is encouraged to be himself on a daily basis... He is very well versed in his individual freedoms, much more so than most of his friends I have conversed with. He understands what this country REALLY stands for, and that the picture he sees every day at school is distorted by the liberal mindset of those who run the place. He also understands that to be successful, he needs to adapt. 

Having said that, being yourself and understanding your freedoms doesn't mean you have to attract potentially negative attention to yourself in the wrong situation. 

Example...

I work in a fairly large corporate setting and don't know my colleague's feelings on hunting/shooting/guns/ecollars. I do know that there is a potential for someone who has a negative feelings about those topics to very quietly stop me from advancing because of them, despite whatever value I may bring to the business. With that in mind I, by and large, keep my weekend activities seperate from my work life to prevent such circumstances from developing. While my hobbies are important to me, my advancement is clearly a bigger priority, as it's what makes my hobby possible. In that corporate situation, I align my actions to what I want to achieve. 

As for life in general, I recognize that the vast majority of folks are either neutral or against what I (we) do with our spare time. I feel no need to call attention to the potential negative by flaunting where I'm going and what I'm doing on a Saturday afternoon. People need not know my business to be honest. I honestly doubt that people seeing us in camoulflage will breed any sort of acceptance. I don't see the mere sight of guys in camo changing the mind of someone whose already anti. In fact, I see that as an opportunity for them to say something negative to the stranger in the register line, who is probably neutral but now has a negative thought in thier head they need not have.

I think the best thing we can do with the neutral folks is keep them neutral, and I think ewe do that by presenting ourselves in a quiet, dignified way. Why force someone to make a decision about something when they are very likely to decide against us? I think we fight the perception of being a bunch of low class, drunk, camo wearing gun slingin yahoos by presenting ourselves in a clean, well dressed and well spoken manner. The truth is that my hunting clothes cost more than most people's best business suit or evening dress, but when you add the blood and mud stains they certainly don't look that way. I'm really sure that people don't realize I'm wearing a $450 parka, they just see a muddy, stained camo coat. I probably have $10k of training expenses and time into my lab, but to them it's just another dog, covered in mud I might add. You might recognize those things, but you're already with me. A neutral person has no idea what he/she are looking at, and honesly, I'd rather it stay that way. 

Leave the 97% neutral, and let's fight the 1/2% anti's who have a bigger voice than the 2 1/2% of us hunters...

Keeping my game to myself keeps those people neutral, just like I want them.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Desire Dogs said:


> Darrin, I understand what your saying and I've tried to the same in the past. But, is this one of the reasons its getting worse and having more issues with people not accepting hunting as OK? Maybe if it was more visial the people who are in the middle would tolerate hunting better. I'm not saying to throw the bloody deer over the hood and drive down Main Street. Because I don't agree with that. Just a thought.
> Joe



We need to make ourselves known to those who make the decisions, in a positive way, to influence public policy. That means educating politicians, not beating the general public into submission with whatever action we think will be effective. We don't need to grow our voter base, we need to mobilize it. The fact is we outnumber the anti's abotu 3-1 when you really look at the facts. 

In NJ, where there is a huge groundswell of anti hunting mindset, that there are truly NO MORE THAN A DOZEN VOTES coming from the radical left, while there are over 100,000 voters in this state with a hunting license and several million more who participate in saltwater fishing. Once politicians are educated on this fact, and see a colleague or two eat the pavement as a result of pro-hunting votes, things suddenly start to change. 

Me wearing camo to the grocery does nothing to effect a positive outcome, nor does preaching to the neutral about how great hunting is. Getting the message accross to our policy makers is a matter of direct communication with them, and getting our people out to VOTE.

This OP going to the school and raising a big stink will get him nowhere, and teach his child nothing. He will not influence the thinking of the school administration in a positive way. They are fighting a battle against the misguided who think of and use guns for al lthe wrong reasons. Supressing images of guns in school is a widely accepted way to fight this battle, so much so that he has no shot whatsoever at changing it.

There are a ton of things people can do to influence public policy in the right direction, but this fight is not one of them. 

I find that by and large doing things to "make a point" makes the wrong point...


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

jeff t. said:


> I wonder if the picture would have been less of a problem if a responsible adult was included rather than a young child alone with a gun?


Who do you think took the picture?
Joe


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Desire Dogs said:


> Who do you think took the picture?
> Joe



I don't know...perhaps another 5 year old?


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Hi

I am 49 years old, I was born in 1960. My grandfather bought me a 22 lever action for my 5th birthday. I was taught how to shoot and handle a rifle. Whenever I wanted to see any of the guns my father owned, he would let me handle them in the front room under his supervision. I never had to sneak around to see the guns. All I had to do was ask.I can remember the nieghbor kids sneaking around to see there fathers guns{very dangerous}.One incident still is in my memory of the next door kid, showing me his fathers 12 gauge in the closet.
If all these kids see is shoot um ups on TV, without the knowledge of what a real weapon is capable of, I can see where the country is headed.I am more than willing to show people the proper safe handling of guns.
You may want to contact the NRA, I think they still have a kids safe firearms program. The school might be interested in putting it on for all the students. 

Regards
Jeff
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

Darrin, I don't mean to make an intentional effort to wear camo to public places. BUT, if I'm coming home from hunting and the wife calls to have me stop by the grocery store and pick up somthing I will, even in camos. 
Maybe someone who is a non hunter will see me and ask if I got anything. This gives me a great opportunity to educate that person that while I usally don't anything its not about the harvest, but more the experience of being out in nature and enjoying it with some friends.
I'm going to hide who I am in this day and age. But I will think before I act and try to educate the non hunters that its not about the kill all the time.
Joe


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hi
> 
> I am 49 years old, I was born in 1960. My grandfather bought me a 22 lever action for my 5th birthday. I was taught how to shoot and handle a rifle. Whenever I wanted to see any of the guns my father owned, he would let me handle them in the front room under his supervision. I never had to sneak around to see the guns. All I had to do was ask.I can remember the nieghbor kids sneaking around to see there fathers guns{very dangerous}.One incident still is in my memory of the next door kid, showing me his fathers 12 gauge in the closet.
> If all these kids see is shoot um ups on TV, without the knowledge of what a real weapon is capable of, I can see where the country is headed.I am more than willing to show people the proper safe handling of guns.
> ...


The NRA use to have a video out with Eddie the Eagel for young kids to watch. If I remember right it had a slogan- somthing like- "if you find a gun, don't touch, tell an adult". 
Joe


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> Me wearing camo to the grocery does nothing to effect a positive outcome, nor does preaching to the neutral about how great hunting is. Getting the message accross to our policy makers is a matter of direct communication with them, and getting our people out to VOTE.


I agree with your entire post except for the significance of the people in the middle. The antis are targeting them, and there's ample evidence that being "out of touch with the land" makes them ripe targets. The HSUS's strategy involves trying to change what is mainstream--that is to change what the "neutral" people accept. The reason politicians go for the antis' initiatives is that they get convinced that their constituents want it.

It's a propaganda campaign, and we are behind. HSUS has established "humane education" in the curriculum in a number of states. I'd like to see us providing, at the least, volunteer speakers in the schools to talk about ecology, and how "nature" involves competition for resources and a struggle to survive--and how in the absence of top predators, which generally don't thrive close to people, hunters are a key part of wildlife management. 

There's no reason we have to let urban and suburbanites go on thinking that the woods are full of Disney animals happily wandering around free from care until the hunter shoots them down like pop-up ducks in a shooting gallery.

Amy Dahl


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## Sporting Gold (May 25, 2008)

And they say we live in a free country. Pretty soon it will be against the law to fly the american flag in your front yard, it might offend someone.Maybe you should send Uncle Teddy to that school.

Good luck
Joe
Sporting Gold Retrievers


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

KwickLabs said:


> So if you want to standup for what you believe is being attacked, go ahead and place your 5 year old in the front lines. From my perspective, that is not a teaching situation I would want to gamble on. Good grief, the kid is five years old!!! It amazes me that anyone in their right mind would think "thumbing your nose" (their view) at someone via a five year old's picture has provided a significant moment for changing society.


Wow, your cynicism is sobering. I am the one who suggested the youngster have an opportunity to talk to the class about hunting, thinking it could be framed in a way that would validate hunting for the youngster. This would require endorsement from the adults as well as leadership to let the other children know that hunting is a legal, acceptable activity and a choice to be treated with respect.

Sounds like you're saying this isn't possible, that it would only set the kid up for ostracism?
They could do it at the schools my kids have been to, but maybe they're the exception.

Amy Dahl


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> It kills me that my son thinks that there was something wrong with his picture. He was so proud of his board.


This is a perfect opportunity to explain to your son that not all people are created equal. For instance, some people are mental spastics who are incapable of handling pictures of guns. 

These are the same type of parents who are also incapable of properly raising their kids. You can let him look forward to higher insurance rates to help cover their prozac and the next generations ADD meds.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

I say put the picture back up as originally posted.
If they want it down, they let it be there in the first place. 
If the school wants to take it down, threaten lawsuit.
They will think about it.


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## Mike Trible (Oct 23, 2007)

If I was you, I would go to the school and in a cool, calm, collected, and gentlemanly manner and retrieve the board. I would take the board home and then my son and I together would replace the picture that had been colored over with another exactly like it. And maybe add a couple more with a hunting theme. Then I would hang the board on the living room, family room, or his bedroom wall for all to see, and tell my son that I was PROUD of him, and that I thought he did a very good job on the board, and being a hunter is something to be proud of. And, he will remember that a lot longer than he will remember the
dxxxhxxx that had him color over the picture. In fact I might even post a picture of the board right here on the 
Retriever Board for all of us to see.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> Wow, your cynicism is sobering.


One person's cynicism is another's realism. If it were truly sobering, what does that suggest?

I've been in the classroom.....for many years......not with five year olds though. However, I'd have difficulty in finding any rationale for placing a child *that young* infront of his peers when the presentation is aimed (no pun intended) at justifying "the picture". The complaining parents very possibly will be informed ahead of time and their "fire will be fanned". The issue will expand (because of the adults) and the adminstrator will probably request that parents "sign off" to protect his "donkey" (if he even has the nerve to go there). 

Don't be mislead by my opinions. We are all in the same boat. I just think the shore is in a different direction. 

I don't find it effective to be Tarzan every moment of the day regards, Jim


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Overall, I have to agree with Jim,

how many of us remember what we did as 5 yr olds in school? I don't remember much...the only thing I remember from pre-school was watching a 3-4 yr old poop herself and then stick her poopy hands in her mouth....seriously. (nasty)..So, the odds of this young man remembering that his teacher asked him to color over the gun 'would' likely have been almost zero, IF it had not made it into a big ordeal...I think that the teacher should not have hung up the poster when he/she saw the picture with the shotgun, but should have called the parents first to explain the concerns she had......I also (as a child whose mother went through 2 divorces before I turned 9) do NOT agree with putting a young child in the middle of an 'adult' matter.....

anyway, while we, as people that hunt and use firearms regularly, do not see anything 'dangerous' with the picture...think about it from a 'non hunting/firearm using' 5 yr old's perspective... There's a picture of my friend with a REAL gun, by himself.....now imagine that same 5 yr old going to his/her buddy's house where there are guns...might there be some 'unsafe' curiosity? 

Skip ahead to 6th grade classes and up, and I'd be having a serious discussion with the school administration, if this situation arose with my kids, but for a pre-k class of 4-5 yr olds..I don't think I would push the matter.....


Juli


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I never sad anything about parading the Kid in front of the school. I sugested the Parents go and have a discussion about the schools policy, and how it contradicts the Constitution!

A VOUCHER SYSTEM !! Pure and simple would stop a bunch a this stuff!
by the way of Choice and Competition!!

A local radio guy here is very well versed on the subject!
Much more literate than Gooser. His name is Mike Rosen

Here is a column he wrote about Utahs passage of a Voucher system. 
I agree with all his points, especially the ones in bold.



The state of Utah has just passed a landmark educational voucher program under which every family, depending on its income, will be reimbursed between $500 and $3,000 per child for annual tuition paid to the private school of their choice. 
This will now give parents of modest means options that the well-to-do have long enjoyed. Their school-age children will no longer be a captive audience. Parents will be empowered as educational _consumers_, giving them choices and leverage consumers enjoy in all other spheres of our market economy. They'll be free to choose the educational model they believe best fits the unique needs of their children, and will be freed from the bureaucracy and politics of government-delivered education.
Predictably, the educratic establishment is in full counterattack. The Utah teachers' union has launched a campaign to repeal the new law. If that fails, they'll try their luck in court. Their resistance is bred of desperation.
*First, the union's survival is at stake. Under a voucher system, education is still publicly financed through taxpayer dollars. That doesn't change. But what does is the union's monopoly to deliver publicly funded education exclusively in government schools. Under a voucher system, competition would bloom.*
*Second, there's the ideological opposition to competition and free choice in education. The educratic establishment - from administrators, to the teachers' colleges that staff the schools, to the unions that run them and the school boards they elect - is liberal to its core.*
*They covet their power to set the agenda, to dictate subject matter and educational techniques, to influence impressionable young minds and mold the next generation of liberal activists. They've turned their government schools into laboratories for social engineering, downgrading basic academics and old-fashioned notions of American exceptionalism, patriotism and individualism in favor of collectivism, political correctness, diversity, environmentalism, feminism, and delusional self-esteem. They have a death grip on these schools that they're loath to release.*
As the United States falls further behind other nations in the math and science proficiency of students, and as the customer service rep on the other end of your telephone - somewhere in India - speaks better English than millions of American high school graduates, it's increasingly obvious that something's terribly wrong with public education in this country.
Yet educrats circle their wagons around the status quo. Tanya Clay House of the ultra-liberal People for the American Way recently declared, "We've never seen a shred of credible evidence that shows school vouchers actually help students learn. While all public schools must demonstrate success under No Child Left Behind, private schools are not held to the same level of accountability for their performance."
Nonsense. Private schools are held to account in the most effective way possible - they're accountable to their customers who are free to take their business elsewhere if they're not satisfied. All the evidence you need for vouchers is that parents who have used them to escape the government school monopoly fight to keep them.
Then, Clay House added this gem: "Every child deserves an excellent education, not just those who can get admitted to a private school." I wonder if she realizes how self-contradictory that statement is. She's acknowledging that private schools provide educational excellence and that kids who are stuck in government schools are denied that! Does she suppose that wealthy parents who pay a premium to send their kids to private schools (without "a shred of evidence that they help students learn") are stupid?
Celebrating passage of the Utah voucher law, Andrew Coulson of the Cato Institute wrote in The American Spectator: "Salt Lake City's legislation could very well become the domino that tips all other states into the camp of educational freedom." Wouldn't it be great if Colorado had the wisdom and courage to be next?


Maybe voters in Georgia need to take action and not bother with the asses that run these schools!!!


Gooser


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## 150class (Jul 1, 2003)

I have absolutely lost all hope for this country, seriously
I would call a meeting for 8 am the next morning with every school official, board member and political folks. This is absolutely unacceptable behavior. 100% unacceptable. I hope you pursue this fully and until you get the resolve you want. If you need help let me know, I'll fly down for the day.
You folks that say there isnt much you can do, please support that statement. Show me what violation has taken place.
If this isnt stopped it will just get worse and worse in this country


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> I'll fly down for the day.


OK, I think it's time for me to go flock some coot decoys.....which is cryptic lingo for "You've got to be kidding."


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks for everyones comments. I just logged in and saw 8 pages of comments to my surprise. There has been a lot of great comments and I do not want to put my son in the middle of something but I do want him to understand what is happening. This will be a battle that he is going to face the remainder of his life unfortunately. I take his buddies camping, fishing and hunting every chance I can. 

My son missed the cut off by just a couple of days for K so he is in a 5 full day Pre-K program it is not a public school however there are some that use State Funding for Pre-K and K. We personally pay for this for Knox as well as his younger brother. We have had kids in the program for the past 7 years and have been extremely satisfied with the quality of education that our kids have received. My wife is set on the school and she has put her foot down. My first reaction was give me my money and we are out of here. 

To me the issue is that we were given the guidelines and we put together the project. The project was turned in and hung on the wall. Then when the parents started complaining is when it became an issue. The voice of the uneducated and anti is becoming the majority and that scares me. Then the way that they cornered my wife with my son. She is strong willed but did not want to cause a scene in front of my son. She did not grow up in a hunting home but she respects the values and interest that I am building in our kids*. I do not want to create a situation that draws attention to me or my beliefs but focuses on a 5 year old boy that created a board with all his favorite things to do.* I still can not believe that they did this to him. They did not have an issue with the bass he had on a stringer but they did with the gun.

I will try to load a pic of the board. Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> Quick story!!
> 
> I purchased a pair of wingers recently!
> I had them set up on the front lawn fitting them with remote devices.
> ...


Gooser that was hilarious!


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

wackemnstackem said:


> I think this is getting blown way out of proportion....


Me, too, but I can one-up Gooser's story. A fellow I know very well lives in the woods down a long secluded lane. He has a workshop next to the house and was expecting his wife to come home for lunch when he heard a car coming in the lane.

SO, 

he decided to greet his wife wearing his work boots.

and nothing else.

When the car pulled up next to the house, he stepped out of the shop to greet two nice ladies hoping to pass out some religious literature.

Far as I know they haven't been back to his house.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Keith Stroyan said:


> Me, too, but I can one-up Gooser's story. A fellow I know very well lives in the woods down a long secluded lane. He has a workshop next to the house and was expecting his wife to come home for lunch when he heard a car coming in the lane.
> 
> SO,
> 
> ...


ROFLMAO!!! If I had been eating or drinking when I read that, it would've been on my computer screen! :razz:

dang, I'd loved to see the look on their faces, and maybe his face too, when he realized 'the error of his ways'...LOL!

Juli


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## Steve Burdsal (Jan 1, 2008)

Kirkd said:


> So what would you do?
> 
> My son is 5 years old and is in a pre-k program. This week he was the star student so he was asked to put together a poster board with pictures of what he likes to do. Basically take a snap shot of his hobbies and put them on the poster board. He took it in to school Monday. It was hung up outside the classroom door for all to see. The problem comes in when several parents complained because one of the pictures was of him hunting with me, he had his orange vest on holding his 410 pump shotgun. So since they complained they cornered my wife when she was picking up my son on Wed and made her and my son color over the gun with a marker. To say the least I am extremely upset and can not believe that they would make my son feel like he had something wrong on his board. I am raising my son to appreciate the outdoors and our country. There is no school policy that is written or that has been verbally expressed about this and they told my wife that they would be adopting a new school policy so that this issue would not arise again.
> 
> ...



These are probably the same people that scream tolerance and diversity.

Well where is their tolerance for your alternate life style, and diversity?*

Keep hope alive.

Steve.*


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

Kirkd, You did not light the fire here. Your story is becoming more and more common here the USA, (unfortunately). There was actually a similar story over on the Refuge this week. It just madddens those of us that hunt and wish we could all do more.
Keep in mind that the school did what the other parents wanted. Where are your rights? I can understand not wanting to put your son in the middle of a debate, but please say somthing to the school board and principal.
Joe


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## Scott Jinks (Feb 21, 2006)

I fully agree this is BS. But I have learns that going in raising he'll will get you or your son nowhere fast. Time to turn the tables! Go politly talk to the school, calmly express you are upset about the effect the situation is having on your son. Then volunter to bring the dogs for a show and tell to help him out. If you can sell this to the school. You win.

Bring the dogs, do a couple simple marks, and a simple blind. Let the kids pet the dogs. Let your son run a dog, some of his classmates throw bumpers.

During all this you can explain how the dogs were born to do this, how great a concervation tool they are. Ect. 

Your son will be the talk of the class for a few days, and you will expose some young minds to the real world in a non conflicting way. Every body wins, but the ones who wanted the pictures colored.

I have done this several times. The first time it was just his class. Next time it was the hole school. We all need to do this. Even if you don't have kids in school. Be proactive, without being in your face. Every teach I have done this with loves it, the kids love it.

Scott Jinks


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Contact the NRA...they'll have a BALL with this....

If we let our rights be trampled, we'll have no one to blame but ourselves.

k g


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

I think the bottom line is that your son made a poster. On that poster there is a picture of your son holding a shot gun. It's his poster, his picture. He made the poster within whatever guidelines there were or weren't.

So if people find offense with his poster they need to mind their own business, and keep their opinions to themselves.

Now he could do a S&T with you there, your dog and you can explain at their level what hunting is and the tradition of hunting. 

Angie


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## Rudd (Jan 9, 2008)

The problem is, the extremists (either side) sway the middle and we all know how vocal they are. If you want to keep your rights you will have to be heard. Keeping your hobbies guarded from the public and hiding it from coworkes or not causing a ruckus over a picture simply gives the other side more weight when it comes to educating/swaying the neutral. We need to be more vocal.


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## Dave Flint (Jan 13, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> I have even gone to the extent of having most, if not all my clothing NOT be camouflage. We pull the camo on leaving th truck but we're not wearing it if we stop at the sandwich shop...
> 
> Sometimes it just makes sense for people not to flaunt certain things. Again, that's not to say there's anything wrong with it,....QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> 1. I have adopted the stance that while we love what we do for our hobby, we don't publicize it to the world.
> 
> 2. I have even gone to the extent of having most, if not all my clothing NOT be camouflage. We pull the camo on leaving the truck but we're not wearing it if we stop at the sandwich shop...
> 
> ...


1. Where I live (N.E. WA State) everyone flaunts it. "Dressed up" is a camo shirt with buttons. I prefer to dress however I want, no matter where I am. Screw 'em.

2. All I can say is --- WHEW ! (or maybe YIKES !)

3. And most of the time it DOES make sense. I do agree that "kids might as well learn what the real world is like" and also to learn to stand up for their beliefs...... Hell, all of the other "groups" do. Are we any less than gay rights, animal rights, anti-defending America, Greenpeace, anti-whaling (and the list goes on forever).

4. Exactly correct -- Teach our kids to stand up for their beliefs and values !
Do you really want them to learn to cave in ? .......... That's one of the big things that are giving PC people the power that they have. 

5. I still do. I'm not caving in to a nicey nicey society.



.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

wow. just got home and this is the first thing i read.

go get 'em!


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## HuntsmanTollers (Feb 20, 2003)

Here is a thought send your story to Bill O'Reilly. Maybe the individuals responsible will make the pinhead segment. Drives the point home regarding your son's freedom of speech rights but it keeps him out of the argument.


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## K.Bolan (Feb 1, 2008)

Give'em hell. As a boy I once took a deer wind pipe in for s&t. 
I'll kick in 50 as well. This is EXACTLY what is wrong with the country. Too many people forcing there beliefs on others. And it does not matter what there opinion is, your boy has the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. It says so right here:

*I**N** CONGRESS, J**ULY 4, 1776*​ *The unanimous Declaration** of the thirteen united **States of America*​ When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

I have to agree with Jeff here. Many of you post about not leaving any dog with a small child but it is okay to give a 5 year old access to a shotgun?

Common sense doesn't put a gun in the hands of a 5-year-old child. 

The reason pro-hunting advocates are so behind in the PR game is because they just keep spouting constitutional rights, and less government, but then want to put guns in the hands of five-year-olds.

Why aren't 5 year kids allowed to drive cars? After all, nothing in the constitution says they can't. 

At your next field trial or hunt test, do you want five-year-olds doing the gunning? Ask Ted Nugent if he would be willing to go deer hunting in a 300 acre woods with five 5-year-old kids armed with rifles?

J. Marti





jeff t. said:


> I don't have any kids, but I must confess that I'm surprised to hear of a 5 year old child having access to a shotgun, even with adult supervision.
> 
> Heck, I think I was considerably older before I even had a BB gun.


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

Hey Kirkd, I'm sorry if this has already been posted - I didn''t read all of the previous 9 pages of posts but wanted to give you my support. You have a right to be mad, but its not going to do you any good to fight it with those parents. The antis think that they are right too. Trust me I live in NJ and come across this all the time. I have two boys ages 9 and 7 and they love to go out in the outdoors with me and hunt and fish - but in our region I find out that most people are indifferent to the issue and a very small percentage are against hunting.

The best thing you've done (and that no anti can stop) is to have exposed your son to the joy of hunting at an early age. Doesn't matter what they say now or make him shadow in on a poster. Yes - its not right - but its a small, irrelevant victory for them when you have already won. Great picture of your boy in the field.

Regards and keep up the good fight.


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## JS McKinney (May 3, 2008)

kindakinky said:


> I have to agree with Jeff here. Many of you post about not leaving any dog with a small child but it is okay to give a 5 year old access to a shotgun?
> 
> Common sense doesn't put a gun in the hands of a 5-year-old child.
> 
> ...


I think you have missed the point.

You can focus on his son's age, but at the end of the day he is hopefully teaching *his child* about gun safety and being a responsible steward of the outdoors. At what age does "common sense" dictate that this is something worthwhile.


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## JS McKinney (May 3, 2008)

caglatz said:


> Hey Kirkd, I'm sorry if this has already been posted - I didn''t read all of the previous 9 pages of posts but wanted to give you my support. You have a right to be mad, but its not going to do you any good to fight it with those parents. The antis think that they are right too. Trust me I live in NJ and come across this all the time. I have two boys ages 9 and 7 and they love to go out in the outdoors with me and hunt and fish - but in our region I find out that most people are indifferent to the issue and a very small percentage are against hunting.
> 
> The best thing you've done (and that no anti can stop) is to have exposed your son to the joy of hunting at an early age. Doesn't matter what they say now or make him shadow in on a poster. Yes - its not right - but its a small, irrelevant victory for them when you have already won. Great picture of your boy in the field.
> 
> Regards and keep up the good fight.


very nice post.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

There are still schools where the first day of "Buck" season is a legal excuse for taking the day off from school

john


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## seandcso75 (May 12, 2009)

The next thing that might happen in schools is kids aren't allowed to say the Pledge of Allegiance or say God......oh wait a minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbIls0iOnI

I think 'Ol Red is turning in his grave.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

kindakinky said:


> I have to agree with Jeff here. Many of you post about not leaving any dog with a small child but it is okay to give a 5 year old access to a shotgun?
> 
> Common sense doesn't put a gun in the hands of a 5-year-old child.
> 
> ...


 
WOW!!!!!

This guy is a Prime example of why we have to be deligent with keeping our focus about this issue.

Sir: It isnt about the boys age. Its not about wether you feel the Kid is ready to be supervised with a gun or not. You dont know,, You only ASSUME!!! 
In most states you have to be about 16 yrs old before you can drive. I assure you that MANY MANY rural Kids are driving vehicles Long before that age, on their familys private roads. Driving vehicles too, that the average adult would have a problem with,, Large trucks,, equiptment ect!!


*What this topic is about sir,, is the boys Constitutional right of FREEDOM of SPEECH, and EXPRESSION! Also the School clearly censored the boys project on a basis of some silly notion of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS,worried that others will be offended!!! ~~~~~~ GET IT??? *
*THE SCHOOL ASKED FOR THE PROJECT,,, DISPLAYED IT,,,, AND THEN HAD THE POOR KID ALTER IT, BECAUSE OF NARROW MINDED OPINION FROM OTHERS!!!*

Really~~~ Folks this is what we are dealing with here!!!
People (like kindakinky) that want to inflick *THEIR VIEWS* based on *THEIR* biases so you will run *YOUR* life better in *THEIR OPINION!!*

Who here thinks the boy was left by himself, unsupervised with a gun??
I mean really folks! The Kid went hunting with his Dad,, posed for a picture at the end of the day!! Thats the ONLY senario a level headed non emotional person would take!! I trust the Dad here!!! He knows the situation ~~~ I dont!!!

Gooser


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

john fallon said:


> There are still schools where the first day of "Buck" season is a legal excuse for taking the day off from school
> 
> john


John, Around here ALL of the public county schools shut down for the first day of our deer shotgun seson. When I was 15 and again at 16 and in high school I actually missed the first 2 weeks of school to go elk hunting with my day in Colorado. The principal (who was a catholic priest) didn't care for it and told Dad that he could stop me from going. But Dad kept at him explaining that theres more to life than books. And the fact that I could leave and go to a different school. We went, I had a great time and yes I even made up all of the homework I missed.
Joe


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

Gooser is exactely correct. I believe the child was supervised and I think Dad took the picture. My 6 year old loves to shoot and was doing it a 5 also. Haven't you ever heard " Start them young before they develop any bad habits".

Gooser-- I like your opinions. Ever considered running for office? You've got my vote.
Joe


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

If you think that's bad.......... 

Our rights are being trampled on our watch right under our own eyes .
When as a *licensed hunter *we are allowed to shoot waterfowl and upland game at as young as the age of 16, at a Hunt Test and Field Trial one must be 21.

That would mean that a returning from a hostle deployment soldier with a valid state hunting license could not shoot the Flier at an AKC event if he were not 21

john


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Gooser-- I like your opinions. Ever considered running for office? You've got my vote.


 

HAHAHAHAHAHEHEHEHEhehe!!!!!

Whata Train Wreck!!!!


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What if the picture was of a Young Muslim boy in prayer, holdin his copy of the coran,, and a school had him color over the Coran???


HUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMM???????


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

We live in a FREE society!!

Our rights are protected by the Constitution and the Bill of rights!!

We have the freedom of speech, freedom of expression,, right to peacefully assemble ect!

There are some consequences that come along with those rights that we have to accept!! Its our way of life as Americans and love of a FREE society!!

I really feel sorry for the Dad!!
He has that "itch" that something is wrong. Something that hurt his son and his Familys core belief!
His wife thinks he is "Crazy" which I toatally get, She likes her community, likes the school, doesnt want to make waves ect, but there is the Dad scratchin that derned itch!!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What if the PICTUE was of a young Christian boy saying a Prayer under the American Flag in the School Yard before class,, and a group of parents wanted the poster taken down??


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What if the picture was of a young boy holding a shotgun after a hunting trip with his Dad,, and a group of parents forced the wife and son to color over the gun???


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

What if Gooser and his lovely wife goes to a drive through resturant on the weekend,, and Gooser doesnt want to deal with Mrs Gooser naggin at him if the Dude at the window short Changes Gooser,, or God forbid gets the order wrong,, so Gooser decides to Back through the drive up line so, the window is on HER side of the truck!!!

NOW<< the next car to pull up in line is a COP!!!

Gooser gets a toung lashin from Mr Cop,,, AND Mrs Gooser!!!

Cant Win!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> I bring that up because the suggestions here to put that kid up on a stage in front of parents and peers is very foolish. He's 5 !!


Who said that???



Discussion is ONLY between the Parent and the School!!!




> And if you think anything will be accomplished in the cause of gun and hunter rights, I think you are mistaken.


ITS NOT A GUN ISSUE!!!!!! maybe INDIRECTLY it is,, ITS more about Freedom of Speech and Expression!!!~~~~~ JEEZE!!!

The boys freedom of speech was censored by the school, because of emotional political correctness pressure from other parents!!! Again ~~~~ JEEZE!!!




Gooser


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

john fallon said:


> If you think that's bad..........
> 
> Our rights are being trampled on our watch right under our own eyes .
> When as a *licensed hunter *we are allowed to shoot waterfowl and upland game at as young as the age of 16, at a Hunt Test and Field Trial one must be 21.
> ...


WTF John, I'm 43 and I always get the long retired?


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## Eric Johnson (Dec 23, 2004)

As you've related the story, your wife colored over the image of the gun.

This puts you in a real conundrum as far as official repsonse. Should they have objected? No. Should your wife have given in? No. Do you make an official complaint? That's harder to say. Whether you involve your son or not, word will get out and the word will get back to him in likely a cruel fashion...child to child.

I don't envy you.

Eric


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Take the photo to a T-Shirt shop and have them make enough T-shirts to last till laundry day.

Sure would keep someone busy coloring regards

Bubba


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Don't get all huffy, I'm on your side. But look at it this way, I love it when my opponent get's angry and starts flailing around. Just like all you infuriated patriots are doing right now. Calm down and think.


 

:shock::shock:




> Don't get all huffy, I'm on your side.


Ok!!! Your on MY SIDE!!!!!



> I love it when my opponent get's angry and starts flailing around.


 
Now,, I'm your *opponent*???


Who needs to slow down and think whats the heck theys a sayin???

C'MON Man!!!



> Just like all you infuriated patriots are doing right now.


Cough,, real meaning of his post!!



Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> No you fool...Looking at it as if I were on the anti gun/picture side, I'd love the way you're so upset. It makes you an easy target.


Name callin tactic now huh???
Everbody here KNOWS Goosers a Fool!!!!

So,, if Im an easy target,, Lets Play devils argument,, and YOU play the role of Anti gun,, anti Hunter,, (cough) and Debate me in an ADULT manner,, and tell me where I's wrong?? Just Keep in the back a that narrow mind a yours( playin the ROLE of anti), that The discussion isnt about Guns, doesnt have nothin to do with puttin the boy on stage,, but rather the* censorship by the school, of a Pictoral display of a persons hobbies and activities!! *Because of pressure they recieved from "Other" parents!!! .

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Nice dodge Walt!!

Threw a pitch right at ya, and Ya ducked,, not takin a base fer the team!!

Ball ONE!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Tell me what you want them to do. How do they proceed to obtain their rights for their son to draw pictures of whatever he wants? As


They have no need to" Obtain " any rights!! Those rights are already granted to them under law!

I would personally expect an apology in *Private* from the schools Pricipal, and teacher ,after a *Private* discussion of the REQUEST FROM THE SCHOOL, to have the boy Pictorally dispaly his activities!!

And I would expect an explaination of why the poster wasnt ORGINALLY thought to be a problem (Because it was displayed) but only became on AFTER the narrow minded Political correct crowd complained!

If the school refused to discuss this, or give and answere to my satisfaction,, Then I would proceed to follow the actions posted earlier as stated here

The state of Utah has just passed a landmark educational voucher program under which every family, depending on its income, will be reimbursed between $500 and $3,000 per child for annual tuition paid to the private school of their choice. 
This will now give parents of modest means options that the well-to-do have long enjoyed. Their school-age children will no longer be a captive audience. Parents will be empowered as educational _consumers_, giving them choices and leverage consumers enjoy in all other spheres of our market economy. They'll be free to choose the educational model they believe best fits the unique needs of their children, and will be freed from the bureaucracy and politics of government-delivered education.
Predictably, the educratic establishment is in full counterattack. The Utah teachers' union has launched a campaign to repeal the new law. If that fails, they'll try their luck in court. Their resistance is bred of desperation.
*First, the union's survival is at stake. Under a voucher system, education is still publicly financed through taxpayer dollars. That doesn't change. But what does is the union's monopoly to deliver publicly funded education exclusively in government schools. Under a voucher system, competition would bloom.*
*Second, there's the ideological opposition to competition and free choice in education. The educratic establishment - from administrators, to the teachers' colleges that staff the schools, to the unions that run them and the school boards they elect - is liberal to its core.*
*They covet their power to set the agenda, to dictate subject matter and educational techniques, to influence impressionable young minds and mold the next generation of liberal activists. They've turned their government schools into laboratories for social engineering, downgrading basic academics and old-fashioned notions of American exceptionalism, patriotism and individualism in favor of collectivism, political correctness, diversity, environmentalism, feminism, and delusional self-esteem. They have a death grip on these schools that they're loath to release.*
As the United States falls further behind other nations in the math and science proficiency of students, and as the customer service rep on the other end of your telephone - somewhere in India - speaks better English than millions of American high school graduates, it's increasingly obvious that something's terribly wrong with public education in this country.
Yet educrats circle their wagons around the status quo. Tanya Clay House of the ultra-liberal People for the American Way recently declared, "We've never seen a shred of credible evidence that shows school vouchers actually help students learn. While all public schools must demonstrate success under No Child Left Behind, private schools are not held to the same level of accountability for their performance."
Nonsense. Private schools are held to account in the most effective way possible - they're accountable to their customers who are free to take their business elsewhere if they're not satisfied. All the evidence you need for vouchers is that parents who have used them to escape the government school monopoly fight to keep them.
Then, Clay House added this gem: "Every child deserves an excellent education, not just those who can get admitted to a private school." I wonder if she realizes how self-contradictory that statement is. She's acknowledging that private schools provide educational excellence and that kids who are stuck in government schools are denied that! Does she suppose that wealthy parents who pay a premium to send their kids to private schools (without "a shred of evidence that they help students learn") are stupid?
Celebrating passage of the Utah voucher law, Andrew Coulson of the Cato Institute wrote in The American Spectator: "Salt Lake City's legislation could very well become the domino that tips all other states into the camp of educational freedom." Wouldn't it be great if Colorado had the wisdom and courage to be next?



Maybe voters in Georgia need to take action and not bother with the asses that run these schools!!!






Gooser


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

You would be surprised, or not, the amount of indoctrination that happens throughout the educational system.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Choice and competition to battle the indoctrination that it becoming so wide spread these day!!

A Voucher system that would allow Kids from lesser means, attend the same Private schools,, that the more affuent kids attend! The parents are left with the CHOICE of what curriculum and Values are taught!!

If a parent wants prayer in school, or only ACEDEMIC based instruction,, then so be it,, find that school and attend, with the finanical aid of the voucher.

If you enjoy the Government based schools we have now,, then fine the Kids stays there!! 

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> You would be surprised, or not, the amount of indoctrination that happens throughout the educational system.


And a Voucher system would enable parents to CHOOSE the type of "indoctrination" they want their child exposed to!

Gooser


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

I thought for sure someone would have brought up the PTA by now .It very well may have been a PTA member who complained , their anti gun agenda is well known .And this school is clearly ripe for a visit from Eddie the Eagle, the NRA icon for kids in this very age group . If the OP needs a hand with getting Eddie , let me know .


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

There's a lot of common ground being ignored in this thread. First of all, there hasn't been a single post stating the teacher was correct in her decisions. Secondly, there has not been a single post supporting the principal's action. Third, we all agree the complaining parents should have minded their own business and not trampled on another person's rights. 

Now where I see great differences is in what each poster would do if they were in the same stuation. As most will admit, not being in the situation is very different than living in the moment. Common experience (for me) suggest "living it" vs. "problem solving from afar" are like "difficult to do" vs. "easy to say". We can argue that......but I won't....because it is just an opinion. 

As usual when a topic is "difficult", the posts gravitate toward creative writing revolving around one thing........an opinion.....driven by personal emotions. Unfortunately, we don't all "wear the same shoes". On second thought, that's a good thing. 

Please refer back to the first paragraph. We and I repeat *WE* agree about the basic source of the problem. However, *WE* are not living it.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

When the OP says "_they cornered my wife when she was picking up my son on Wed and made her and my son color over the gun with a mark......." _
I wonder what is meant??
It would seem that if a stand were to be taken it should have been then.
To my way of thinking she is now complicit in this. 

I wonder how they MADE her do anythingof the sort

john


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## K.Bolan (Feb 1, 2008)

If it were my son I would have brought in a couple more pics with him holding a gun and maybe even add some with game that had been taken. I would raise hell in that school.


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## Briogirls (Dec 16, 2008)

Kirkd said:


> My son is 5 years old and is in a pre-k program. This week he was the star student so he was asked to put together a poster board with pictures of what he likes to do. Basically take a snap shot of his hobbies and put them on the poster board. He took it in to school Monday. It was hung up outside the classroom door for all to see. The problem comes in when several parents complained because one of the pictures was of him hunting with me, he had his orange vest on holding his 410 pump shotgun. So since they complained they cornered my wife when she was picking up my son on Wed and made her and my son color over the gun with a marker. To say the least I am extremely upset and can not believe that they would make my son feel like he had something wrong on his board. I am raising my son to appreciate the outdoors and our country. There is no school policy that is written or that has been verbally expressed about this and they told my wife that they would be adopting a new school policy so that this issue would not arise again.


Well first of all the issue at hand is whether or not the picture of the student w/a gun should be(or not be) on a poster board at school.
You stated that numerous individuals(parents) complained about the picture. Next you stated that your wife was corner to cover up the gun in the picture, by your above narrative, it sounds like other parents made her do this and not the school administration. The school admin should DEFINETLY have been notified about this before your wife took any action. That being said, while students do have the right to free speech in the school system, they do not have that right if it disrupts the education of others(Tinker vs. Des Moines). http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html
If the picture disrupted or scared other students, thus disrupting their education, it is only fair to omit it. We do not all share the same views on guns
Now I would make sure the principal is aware of the situation, if the parents made your wife omit the gun from the photo, I would go over this with the principal as well, he may/may not let that decision stand. 
my two cents


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Briogirls said:


> Well first of all the issue at hand is whether or not the picture of the student w/a gun should be(or not be) on a poster board at school.
> That being said, while students do have the right to free speech in the school system, they do not have that right if it disrupts the education of others(Tinker vs. Des Moines). http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html
> If the picture disrupted or scared other students, thus disrupting their education, it is only fair to omit it. We do not all share the same views on guns
> 
> ...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> That being said, while students do have the right to free speech in the school system, they do not have that right if it disrupts the education of others(Tinker vs. Des Moines). http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/com...ch/tinker.html
> If the picture disrupted or scared other students, thus disrupting their education, it is only fair to omit it. We do not all share the same views on guns:smile:


 
If the school wanted to apply that ruling,, the poster should have NEVER been allowed to be displayed in the first place,, with an explaination of the schools policy to begin with!! Then proof of who it was disrupting or disturbing!! Who did it disturb?? Another 5 yr old child,, or the Liberal Parent??? Did it hamper the Childs learning ,,or the Liberal Parent??

Is it the schools Policy to not allow specific topics in their assignments?/ Or is it the schools policy to decide AFTER the fact,, once a complaint arises.

How did the action affect the Kids learning, that had to go in and color over an activity that was being taught to him at home under a Parents guidline!! WHO CALLS THE SHOTS HERE???

VOUCHERS!!! FOLKS!!!!

Let the chips fall where they may! 
At the end of the day,, we'll see what schools remain because of Choice and Competion that teach our kids daily!

But to have the Mother and Child color over the topic to proove a point is cowardice to say the least!
Brutal action toward Both the child and the Parents!!!

And by the way!

All this is JUST GOOSERS HDAO


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

I'm with everyone here who said you must 

*FIGHT BACK!!*

Don't give an inch!

However you must fight from the high ground. You have truth and righteousness on your side, don't give either of them up. Let the antis show themselves to the world as the zealous fools they are.

You must fight back, but don't cede the high ground in the fight.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

John Kelder said:


> What a bunch of hooey . Perhaps the children can not learn about how this country was founded thru a REVOLUTIONARY WAR , or WW 1 ,WW 2 ,the holocaust and so on ..???
> That picture of the child was nothing , with or without the gun.But to censor free speech, and harass and intimidate a parent/child over ART is whats wrong with society.
> And if Georgia has a hunter harassment law , I'd have my attorney call the DA .
> I respect your right to your opinion on guns .But if you try to shove your opinion down my throat , I'm sure you respect my right to throw up all over you.


wait until you have kids in school and they spend 10x the amount of time on the civil rights movement as they do on the revolutionary war...

better yet, out of order, as if one could have happened without the other...

my head almost exploded...


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

This was on the news here a few days ago.










Patrick Timoney, 9, holds the small plastic gun that almost got the fourth grader suspended. Credit: Nicholas Fevelo, New York Daily News

"The toy gun is not the issue," Laura Timoney tells the Daily News. "A lack of common sense is the issue." Timoney adds that she wants an apology and might sue the school.

http://www.parentdish.com/2010/02/05/kid-almost-suspended-for-bringing-tiny-toy-gun-to-school/


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

I live in the Northeast, probably the most liberal and becoming the most anti-hunting place in this country. I grew up in a hunting home and still hunt. There are not a lot of people around that still do. Every year the number decreases, as the state makes it more difficult and more expensive to do so. Also the emphasis with kids seems to be video, computer, gameboy, etc. Very few kids get outside at all, never mind to camp, hike or hunt. I took my nephew to Hunter Safety courses and have been buying his license for years because his mother doesn't like guns and his father is too busy. I work in the veterinary profession, where there are, no surprise, many vegetarians and vegans. I am not a person to be concerned about others opinions or views on life. I don't soapbox my life, but I certainly don't shy away from discussing it when asked either.

Many of you made excellent statements regarding this subject. I have to agree that this should not be ignored, but I also agree that you can't go into this with anger and hatred. That is how the antis function. You and your child have rights and you very quietly need to make that clear. People are more and more removed from their farming roots. The same people who want organic produce, organic eggs and free range chicken, are horrified by the concept of hunting (what I generally describe to them as the ultimate free range meat). 

I second Ms Dahl's motion to try and make this a teaching moment. Hunting is a tradition within many families, but it also serves a purpose. By harvesting game, you are preventing animals from overpopulating areas which then create serious effects like disease, starvation and destruction of habitat. We saw this first hand at the Quabbin Reservoir. Reservoir was a no hunting area and the deer population became so large that they ate EVERYTHING they could reach. Habitats were destroyed, silt and mud started getting into the reservoir from run off because there wasn't any growth to keep the topsoil on, deer/car incidents were almost a daily event, deer were starving every winter and there was concern of disease. After they opened the area to monitored hunting, it took about 5 or 6 years to bring the population under control. Now they have lottery hunts there yearly. Without the hunting and harvesting of the deer, this very vital Reservoir could have ended up with some very costly problems. Just one type of topic that could be discussed in the school. Also, because you train retrievers, you could discuss the reasons behind using dogs for hunting (no wanton waste, less crippled birds being left). Also the bonds you are developing with your son, the respect for the land and ALL of its' inhabitants and the skills needed to go hunting and camping (survival skills).

I was interested in the comments people were making about changing their camo clothing. I find that odd, but maybe that is because I live near 2 military air bases and have a National Guard unit posted in my town. People around here see you in camo and assume you are in the military. 

I wish you luck with your school. I, for one, think they have taken political correctness way to far. In the quest not to "offend" anyone, they end up offending everyone.

Regards
Dawn Terrill


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I'm currently retired but I was a Dean of Discipline in a New York City High School. My advice to you is to schedule a conference with the principle and tell him that your son is now traumatized because he was made to feel that his hobbies and time spent with his father is "bad". Get together with other parents who feel the same way and meet with the principal together. The truth is you have been bullied. By the way, I practice what I preach. I have a son who had a similar problem in a Middle School class and we solved it.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

John Kelder said:


> And if Georgia has a hunter harassment law , I'd have my attorney call the DA .


Georgia does have a hunter harassment law. Not sure how it applies here though. I haven't read it. I know that it prevents hunters from being harassed WHILE hunting, other than that, I don't know.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Your wife owes your son an apology! At his age, her agreeing to mark that out is as good as making him do it herself. She screwed up! 

Do whatever fighting you want with the school but you need to do 2 things. First and foremost, your son needs to know that his hobbies ARE ok! I love the idea of the poster that said to bring it home, fix the picture and hang it up for everyone to see. Post the pic here in it's own thread and let all of us show our support to him, you can read it to him to show that there are a lot of adults that will love what he does. 

Second, you need to make sure you and your wife have a talk and that she has your sons back on this. More importantly, he KNOWS that she supports him.


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## jojoe (Oct 5, 2007)

Sorry to read about this situation. Hope you are able to sort it out with a "sit down" with the teacher/principal. Just to show the other side of the coin...my daughter (12yo) took the hunter safety course in her grade 8 class along with 12 of her peers, during class time, arranged by the school staff - despite the principal not being a hunter. Liberals haven't taken over everywhere.

Cheers,
Ron


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

This is a just a taste of things to come for your son/children. It doesn't matter if it is public or private school. Your children will be bombarded with opinions and beliefs that are counter to yours. Despite your best efforts your values and beliefs will be eroded.

Without a doubt you need to stand up for what you believe is right. This will be a bigger lesson for your son than having to color over the picture of the gun. He will know his dad is a man he can count on and look up to because he stands up for what he believes and his son. As has already been mentioned I think you need to consider pulling your son out of school and homeschooling him.

Tom


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## mdngtrdoboy (Nov 26, 2009)

I've stayed off this thread for as long as I can because I knew it would just lead to cursing and upset moderators. I would love to say that this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen but of course it is not. This kind of nonsense is happening every day all across America. Some of the things my 16-year-old step daughter would come home with from her teachers scares the crap out of me. It's one big reason that I want to be a teacher, outside of my love for language. Need to balance the books a little bit. I will by no means tell you how you should go about this. He is your son, and you know best. I know that I would be involved were it my son. (He's almost 4) I wish you the best of luck. I hope that you can come to a resolution but the truth is it will not change the problem. Best case scenario is your son learns that you care enough to be involved and stand by your values and him. He also might learn a little bit about what makes this country great in the process. Best of luck to you and you family.

Ethan


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> wait until you have kids in school and they spend 10x the amount of time on the civil rights movement as they do on the revolutionary war...
> 
> better yet, out of order, as if one could have happened without the other...
> 
> my head almost exploded...


My friend... my youngest is 30 YO..... LOLOLOLOL. benefit of kids having kids regards ...


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

Kirkd,

I would be raising hell to. You are not out of your mind. These are the inches of freedom they take from us each day. Your son followed instructions, and I would be proud as heck of him for selecting that picture. The best way is to confront them, ask logical questions on why, if it met the assignment lesson outline, then how does polictics come into play in the reaction. GEt them to go on record and then take it to a lawyer to see if you got a case. Look to local Pro gunners, maybe a NRA branch and let them know, they'll cover your back on this one. Stick to your guns and we all got your back. I'm good for fifty, just call or PM.

Btw. The first image I was in that pic was a happy young boy that just happened to have a gun. I got it, for no reason at all, pull your kid out of the next day of class and GO HUNITING. IT looks like he enjoys it and he needs a good lesson in HUNTING. Hey, why not all of us do that just for the hell of it. A get out of school day to go hunting! I can'nt wait to pull my kid out just to go hunitng!


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I feel lucky I guess that hunter safety classes around here are taught either as an elective, part of an elective, or after school in several of teh schools here. Some are throught the county conservation off of school graounds also.

good luck to you and your son, be sure that they know where you stand on the issue. I would think the safe gun handling and teaching children responsibility would be seen as a good thing.


One of the most memorable lessons I remember learning as a young hunter was that when I shot something, I ended its life. There was not a reset button, or three quarters for a new game, I had killed something. I think there would be perhaps less violence if more kids had to deal with that fact instead of the semi-realism of video games where you shoot somethign and then hit reset.....


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

achiro said:


> *Your wife owes your son an apology! At his age, her agreeing to mark that out is as good as making him do it herself. She screwed up!*
> 
> Do whatever fighting you want with the school but you need to do 2 things. First and foremost, your son needs to know that his hobbies ARE ok! I love the idea of the poster that said to bring it home, fix the picture and hang it up for everyone to see. Post the pic here in it's own thread and let all of us show our support to him, you can read it to him to show that there are a lot of adults that will love what he does.
> 
> Second, you need to make sure you and your wife have a talk and that she has your sons back on this. More importantly, he KNOWS that she supports him.


dont you think that being a little harsh, she made a parenting decision based on what she thought was best for her child at the time, let give her the benefit of the doubt and not judge her on something she did for HER child...we are all in agreement about the censorship, but lets stay out of this families personal decisions


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## jimmyp (Aug 21, 2008)

WOW! I couldn't believe this. To be honest it made me sick to hear. If I were in ur shoes ida been standing in the middle (on top) of the principals desk throwin a fit. I can assure you as a recently licensed educator I am appauled at the way that the school, the teacher and the administration handled the situation. All I can say is............ WTF?!
Jim


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> dont you think that being a little harsh


No actually I don't think I was being harsh at all just being honest. In fact I held off on some of the things I wanted to say. This little boys mom just made him mark out a part of what he was proud enough about himself/special about him to show off to his friends. You can't nice that up to make it feel better to hear. She needs to make sure he understands that is NOT why she made him do it. I know she loves him but she needs to understand what she did to her son by not standing up for him.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

John Kelder said:


> My friend... my youngest is 30 YO..... LOLOLOLOL. benefit of kids having kids regards ...


In that case WTG John, you haven't lost the fire.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

...and look at these other examples;

A picture of a soldier holding a canteen and a knife has earned the third-grade boy who drew it a suspension from school. Wire reports said the third-grader also drew a fort, listing its inventory as guns, knives, and first-aid kits. The principal of Lenwill Elementary School in West Monroe, La., is quoted as saying that the school "can't tolerate anything that has to do with guns or knives." The boy's father said he's been forced to explain to his son that being in the Army and owning guns "is not bad." According to press reports, school officials stand by their decision to punish the child for what they consider "a violent arrangement." 
The same story quoted on Newsmax: Pupil Suspended for Drawing Soldier.


A big brouhaha over boy's tiny toy gun. A 9-year-old New Dorp boy earlier today learned there is no wiggle room in the Department of Education's "no toy gun" policy — even if the toy gun is just two inches long. Patrick Timoney, a fourth-grader at PS 52, South Beach, was nearly suspended after playing with LEGOs during his lunch period because one of the action figures was carrying at toy machine gun.


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

This country is SCREWED up.
Joe


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Desire Dogs said:


> This country is SCREWED up.
> Joe


And its up to us to fix it .


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> dont you think that being a little harsh, she made a parenting decision based on what she thought was best for her child at the time, let give her the benefit of the doubt and not judge her on something she did for HER child...we are all in agreement about the censorship, but lets stay out of this families personal decisions


I agree completely with this.


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## DSO (Dec 27, 2005)

gdgnyc said:


> I'm currently retired but _I was a Dean of Discipline in a New York City High School._ My advice to you is to schedule a conference with the principle and tell him that your son is now traumatized because he was made to feel that his hobbies and time spent with his father is "bad". Get together with other parents who feel the same way and meet with the principal together. The truth is you have been bullied. By the way, I practice what I preach. I have a son who had a similar problem in a Middle School class and we solved it.


Well... There's your answer.

The guy walked the walk regards,
Danny


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

post the school and principals name and lets hit them with a polite and civil yet stern and to the point letter writing campaign....


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Would it be safe to assume that this same school has no textbooks with pictures of soldiers with guns....Revolutionary War, Civil War, etc.? The school library has no books with pictures of guns? Seems like a double standard to me. If they insist that they were right in eliminating the gun from the child's photo, I'd insist that in the interest of fairness, all books etc. on school property that have pictures of guns....or let's go as far as weapons in general....need to be removed from school property.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Kirk,
So sorry all this happened, especially for your little fella's sake.
You live in the wrong part of Georgia. Down here the little private school has two big fundraisers: they auction off guided deer hunts and they have a raffle for a shotgun. The headmaster gets bent out of shape if somebody has a good dove shoot and doesn't invite him.
Things have gotten entirely too cityfied up your way.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2010)

Kirkd said:


> So what would you do?
> 
> My son is 5 years old and is in a pre-k program. This week he was the star student so he was asked to put together a poster board with pictures of what he likes to do. Basically take a snap shot of his hobbies and put them on the poster board. He took it in to school Monday. It was hung up outside the classroom door for all to see. The problem comes in when several parents complained because one of the pictures was of him hunting with me, he had his orange vest on holding his 410 pump shotgun. So since they complained they cornered my wife when she was picking up my son on Wed and made her and my son color over the gun with a marker. To say the least I am extremely upset and can not believe that they would make my son feel like he had something wrong on his board. I am raising my son to appreciate the outdoors and our country. There is no school policy that is written or that has been verbally expressed about this and they told my wife that they would be adopting a new school policy so that this issue would not arise again.
> 
> ...


You are not overreacting at all but getting into a fight is likely to be a very unsatisfactory experience and it isn't going to convince anyone who is staunchly committed to ignorance that they are defending a totally wrong-headed position. If you think you can keep your temper through a witch-burning, you may want to try organizing a PTA forum to discuss the issue. Losing your temper or raising your voice at any time will just reinforce the opposition.

A few of the gals in my wife's mother's group have decided that playgroups should not be held at our house because the unloaded firearms in a locked gun safe in the closet and the handgun in the locked bedside safe pose an unacceptable risk. To me, the risk is in a child pulling the safe off the bedside table and getting walloped on the head by that heavy, metal box; once it is on the floor all the potential energy is gone and it's as benign as a cookie sheet. I'm not sure it's worth getting worked up over, but I can't seem to help it.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ya Know??

An Ostrich sticks its head in the sand,, and His world becomes a better place. Eventually piece by piece the jackals feast on his ass!!
Dosnt realise it till he donts got a leg to stand on!!!

JMHDUMMB ASS OPINION!!!


Gooser


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

The original poster has not stated what the objection to the poster was.

Was the objection just the gun or was it the child with the gun or the age of the child with the gun? Did the complaining parents explain their objections?

Freedom of expression or free speech can present all sorts of issues if we only believe the constitution guarantees freedom of every expression and freedom of every action. For instance, if I was a drug dealer and I was supervising my 5-year-old with a UZI while I shook down a few late payers, would it be okay for my 5-year-old to take a picture to school with pictures and captions about how people need to be threatened to guns to pay and, after all, this is not only my daddy's hobby but his occupation?

If I want to drive 120 miles per hour on any street because I need to live free and express myself, why can't I?

If my hobby is threesomes, why can't I send graphic picture posters of those threesomes to school with my 5-year-old son? 

This country wasn't built on all-out, anything goes. It was built on the premise of people getting together to decide how best to get along.

Even though I grew up in a hunting home, my mother adamantly opposes hunting. But she eats meat. I explained to her: "I use a gun to kill birds which I then eat. You eat animals others killed for you. Who loves, understands and respects the animal they eat more?"

I just don't want five year olds armed with guns hunting in the same fields/forests I hunt in. I don't want five year olds toting guns on my downtown streets. I don't want five year olds driving cars. I don't want five year olds in porno movies.

I think the original poster must ascertain the specific parental objections to the poster. Until the objecting parents specifically state their objections, I don't know if we understand their opposition to the poster. To my mind, if the opposition is only to the gun is different if the objection is to the gun and the age of the child is different if the objection is to the gun, the age of the child, and, perhaps, what the objecting parents perceive as "lack of supervision."

Please note: I am not saying a "lack of supervision." I'm just asking if the objecting parents saw it as a lack of supervision.

J. Marti


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

kindakinky said:


> The original poster has not stated what the objection to the poster was.
> 
> Was the objection just the gun or was it the child with the gun or the age of the child with the gun? Did the complaining parents explain their objections?
> 
> ...


I do not understand you. Your examples, leave me utterly confused.What does A father teaching his son the safe legal use of firearms have to do with the disgusting examples you gave?


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

kindakinky said:


> The original poster has not stated what the objection to the poster was.
> *Objecive-- To show things that the child likes to do.*
> 
> Was the objection just the gun or was it the child with the gun or the age of the child with the gun? Did the complaining parents explain their objections?
> ...


I feel cofident in saying that Kirk did not allow his son to walk around in the fields with a loaded gun and no supervision. I'm even going to go out on a limb and say that Kirk was probably standing right beside the child the whole time.

That is not the point of the disagreement. The point is others are forcing their will upon others who are not doing anything illegal. And in doing that taking their right away. It is simpily another form of gun control.
Joe


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## rabersin (Dec 2, 2009)

On the plus side, you have an opportunity to teach your child how we resolve conflicts. Involve the child in the process. Make sure he understands that people will disagree with other people, but the laws of the land guarantee us certain rights. However, sometimes we have to stand up for our rights and excercise them. This is not done with violence, but done with words and reason. The school obviously made a mistake. Whether they like it or not, guns and the outdoor sports are part of our society. A magic marker does not erase over two hundred years of gun freedoms in this country. Show your child how conflicts are resolved and how to stand up for his rights. Good luck


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Jeffrey Towler said:


> I do not understand you. Your examples, leave me utterly confused.What does A father teaching his son the safe legal use of firearms have to do with the disgusting examples you gave?


"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater

What I was trying to do was present extreme examples of what SOME people might want to put on posters. You agree the examples I pointed out would be disgusting--I think they would be disgusting too. But, apparently, some parents think a gun is disgusting.

I think the original poster has an opportunity for a real teaching moment involving himself, his wife, other parents and school administration. (Not the child to be involved.) The original poster could point out vegans might object to posters of an outdoor family barbecue of families grilling meat. Or of a kid watching TV (because some people believe kids shouldn't watch T.V.) Etc, Etc.

Reasonable people thrown together into communities because of geographical location, where they work, where their kids go to school, need to discuss issues of freedom of expression and discuss how far down the community is going to go to restrict freedom of expression. 

If a child cannot be depicted on a poster with a gun, can they be depicted eating a hamburger with double patties of meat? Can they be shown going to church? Etc, Etc.

Why did the other parents object? Is the reason for the objection appropriate for the community of viewers of the poster at that time? Or is the objection inappropriate?

My point is/was objections to freedom of expression must be debated, especially among the people in the community in which the issue originally arises. 

I own six guns. But I don't necessarily want to see numerous young men sitting in the back of pickups brandishing guns and roaming my community like we often see on television from other countries. 

I am conflicted on gun laws because I believe in the right for citizens to bear arms but I also know I would rather not have some citizens allowed to bear arms. Ah, the dilemma..... 

I personally love this discussion because I would rather read the opinions of a million non-politicians than the opinion of one politician. This discussion of a boy and a poster and the objections to the poster are the essence of how a free society balances freedom of expression, opinion, and the free flow of thought. 

J. Marti


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Kirk, 

Has there been any resolution???


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## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

Kirk, you must be in California, not Georgia. I am a high school teacher in Cali and see this anti gun stuff often. You do have recourse, but I would take the down-low education approach (Sorry Gooser). Go to the teacher and give her (possibly him) some basic education on what hunting means to you and your family. Toss in some Leupold and Muir stuff. EDUCATE! I have even invited some parents that don't appreciate my passion (I have hunting pictures in my classroom) over to my house for a little Lodi zinfindel and duck a-la-orange. This always throws them- even had one couple take me up on the offer. If the teacher then insists that the picture be removed. Work your way to the top. And, I will pledge the next fity spot! Oh, and let me remind you that the bigger issue may be with your wife---tough situation. 

Take care, John Lodi ca---by the way, Lodi is the zin capitol of the world. Try a Lodi zin with your next duck dinner--we have some good ones. 

Take care,


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Good Zins indeed!!!!

With a nice warm chocolate chip cookie as well!!!!



Next time just bring some duck to school for a taste test for the kids ;-)


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> In most states you have to be about 16 yrs old before you can drive. I assure you that MANY MANY rural Kids are driving vehicles Long before that age, on their familys private roads. Driving vehicles too, that the average adult would have a problem with,, Large trucks,, equiptment ect!!


Yep
If you ever saw a 12 year old driving down the county rd in a semi hualin spuds with a couple of high powered rifles mounted on the rear panel of the cab you would know you were in Gods country.

Pete


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Pete said:


> Yep
> If you ever saw a 12 year old driving down the county rd in a semi hualin spuds with a couple of high powered rifles mounted on the rear panel of the cab you would know you were in Gods country.
> 
> Pete


Just point out one passage in the Bible when God had guns. Just one.

J. Marti


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

kindakinky said:


> Just point out one passage in the Bible when God had guns. Just one.
> 
> J. Marti


Where do you see that he mentioned God having a gun? 

He's referring to his state which is known for its tater production and the fact that it's not uncommon to see a young man carrying the harvest in with some type of weapon in view on the back winshield.

No wonder these threads get derailed sometimes....


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Interesting thread; bottom line, I feel badly for kirkd's wife and son, because IMO they were bullied by the PC police (the complaining parents) and the teacher sided with them.

Since I don't have kids I don't feel like I should offer an opinion on an appropriate response. Mine would probably be a politely written letter to the complaining parents, the teacher, and the school head honcho explaining why I hunt, stressing conservation and safety; and that I hope to instill the same values in my children. I'd toss out a few facts and statistics about gun deaths by kids. I'd probably send it to the local paper too. 


Somewhere I remember reading some statistics, maybe from NRA, that basically broke down the backgrounds of children that killed or wounded with guns; I'm sure they'd be easy enough to find. These children were NOT the ones taught by their parents from a young age about conservation, the life and death cycle of animals, gun safety, gun use, and hunting. The kids doing the killing are the ones weaned on Disney animals and TV/video/internet guns. And no doubt indoctrinated by teachers that all guns were bad. 


And no doubt these sanctimonious complainers don't keep their kids from seeing photos like this: 









which I found in less than 30 seconds on Google. I'm sure a kid can find stuff like this or worse in half the time it took me. And let's not forget the glorification in song, dance and revisionist history of the thug culture that preteens are so enamoured of. And yet, parents raise a stink over a hunting picture. Makes my blood boil.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

kindakinky said:


> Just point out one passage in the Bible when God had guns. Just one.
> 
> J. Marti


God didn't put cars, or e-collars or TV or the internet in the Bible either. 
Just sayin'....


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> God didn't put cars, or e-collars or TV or the internet in the Bible either.
> Just sayin'....


i'm scratchin' my head on this one too Sharon and Brad....Kindakinky just dont get it methinks...?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

April 20,1999

My son had tried to meet up with a Kid he was goin to go to lunch with at school that day

They had a mis `communication of where they were sposed to meet.

My son decided to just go to get his car, and go to lunch alone.

On the way out of the building, he passed a Kid that had been missing from class for a few days. That kid was carrying a black duffle bag, and as my son passed him, the Kid put it down on the sidewalk, and started putting black biker gloves on.

My son said he thought it was strange the Kid was there,, and thought it was strange the duffle made a clank when he set it down,, but my son proceede to his car!

My Son Just made it to the Parking lot when the shooting started.
The Kid opened fire on the very doorway and stairwell my son had just exited.
2 of his friends were killed on the sidewalk and in the stairwell.

The other friend He was sposed to meet was shot and killed later in the Library!

A difference of 3 MINUTES in time,, and I'm sure I would have lost my only son!! I thank God daily

That School was Columbine!

The Gunmen were misfits of the school!
Had Major problems with the Law, and prescribed to Hate filled web sites.

Their Parents were NOT active in either boys lives.
They never knew that they both had Bomb making ordinace in their rooms,
purchase ILLEGAL firearms, and stored them in the Family Garage and in their bedrooms under the bed.
Neither Parent knew of the Hate filled website both the kids had, the Parents learned this from Law officials and councelors at school.

Both Parents way to busy to be involved with Kid raising!!

BUT<<<<<<

What we have to watch out for,, is a Picture of a Kid enjoying precious time with their dad. Teaching that Kid responsibilytat an early age.
Teaching a gun is a Tool,, and not an Instument for violence and hate!

and Our answere is to corner the MOM and and berate the Family????!!

I know first hand about schools, Kids, and emotions that lead to inconsiquential change!!

The Change starts at HOME with Parents teaching their Own Values and Morals. Schools,, officials,, organizations that work against that belief, should be held resposible!

Teachers teach Math, reading, science.

Parents teach morals, religion and Love!!

Whats so hard about that??


Those 2 gunmen??
They had a long History of problems with the Law, counselors at school ect. The SYSTEM Failed! The Parents of those Murderers failed!

The gun aint the problem,, its the mind behind the trigger,and experiances that molded that mind!!


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

You Liberal thinking parents:

ask yourself this:

Do you think the lack of discipline at your Kids Public school, is a healthy environment for that child to be placed in on a daily basis??
Teachers with Hands tied to demand discipline? to make simple necessary corrections to keep order in the class? Is expelling kid for discipline reasons wrong??

And if your answere has anything to do with something like ,

Well,,,, MY KID goes to a great school1~~~ couldnt happen Here!!

Go back a few pages of this thread and re read my comment about the ostrich!!!

Gooser


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> God didn't put cars, or e-collars or TV or the internet in the Bible either.
> Just sayin'....


And, if we are one nation under God, that doesn't necessarily mean guns, cars, e-collars or TV, does it? 

J. Marti


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

kindakinky said:


> And, if we are one nation under God, that doesn't necessarily mean guns, cars, e-collars or TV, does it?
> 
> J. Marti


Well, the constitution of this one nation under God also included little details like freedom of speech and the right to bear arms, among others. 

So which biblical time period would you prefer we live by? The time where "an eye for an eye" was the law? Human and animal sacrifice? Crucifixion of criminals?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Just point out one passage in the Bible when God had guns. Just one.


ummmmm Its just a saying

I thought everyone who is 10 years or older has heard of it.

Sorry it shook you so bad.

Pete


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> And, if we are one nation under God, that doesn't necessarily mean guns, cars, e-collars or TV, does it?


Your making less sense than me
Check the expiration date on that stuff your smokin ,,,its bad juju

Pete


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> Well, the constitution of this one nation under God also included little details like freedom of speech and the right to bear arms, among others.


But God never guarantees the right to bear arms. Don't confuse religion with politics. God didn't write the U.S. constitution. God doesn't guarantee freedom of speech or the right to bear arms. 

Read H.L. Mencken. "Twilight of the Gods." Read the Bible. Find a quote in which God guarantees U.S. citizens the right to bear arms. 



> So which biblical time period would you prefer we live by? The time where "an eye for an eye" was the law?


Well, if any person in the U.S. can bear arms, yep. If every person in the U.S. has the right to bear arms, it is pretty much an eye for eye law. Hate the snack served up at kindergarten. Just shoot your gun. Hate the price on big screen t.v.s at Walmart. Just kill a few people. 

Christians say God is on their side. Muslims say God is on their side. But neither have proved using guns was advocated by either God or Allah.



> Human and animal sacrifice?


I don't understand the question. Are you asking whether the Bible asks for human and animal sacrifices? Yes. But, then, the Bible doesn't account for guns. If you think human and animal sacrifices are okay, then Columbine was okay and if a dog killed your dog at a field test, it would be okay. 



> Crucifixion of criminals?


 I haven't seen any criminals crucified in my lifetime. I've seen criminals killed. I believe in life. I oppose abortion and I also oppose the death penalty. If you believe only God should be in charge of who lives and dies, then no one other than God should end a life. Of course, that then gets into human versus other animals' lives. I only advocate protection of human life at this time. Of course, if you don't believe in abortion, you can't believe in the death penalty or war. If you believe in the sanctity of human life, you believe in the sanctity of human life. 

It's important to understand God neither wrote nor approved the U.S. constitution.

J. Marti


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## SeniorCoot (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey PETE--Sounds like a rig Stompin Tom Connor's might be driven-- "Ketchup loves potadas"


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

kindakinky said:


> But God never guarantees the right to bear arms. Don't confuse religion with politics. God didn't write the U.S. constitution. God doesn't guarantee freedom of speech or the right to bear arms.
> 
> Read H.L. Mencken. "Twilight of the Gods." Read the Bible. Find a quote in which God guarantees U.S. citizens the right to bear arms.
> 
> ...



OK, now I'm really confused. I'm still trying to figure out what the Bible has to do with any of this. Of course there's nothing in it about guns.....or any of the other hundreds of thousands of things that weren't invented 2000 years ago. And yes, I have read it....the entire thing....three times through before I turned 14 just for starters. 

At this point, none of your statements are making any sense or logic at all, with no relevance to the topic of this thread, so I'm gonna go with Pete's idea. Check that expiration date....you're smokin' some bad juju. ;-)


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

The BIBLE talks about oppression!!!

Moses took his people across the desert!!

They were blocked from escape by an ocean!!

God parted the waters to let Moses people go!

God flooded the ocean back and swalloweded the pursuents!!

I bet a bunch a them pursuents wished he'd a used a silly .22 rifle dont you??


But really this is a very different topic,, and I just bet KINKY wants to change the direction to get us gun toten Bible carryin radicals all worked up!!

The Line is bein drawn in the sand!!

SOMEDAY its gonna take courage to cross it and take on the Bully!!!

Gooser


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

kindakinky said:


> Well, if any person in the U.S. can bear arms, yep. If every person in the U.S. has the right to bear arms, it is pretty much an eye for eye law. Hate the snack served up at kindergarten. Just shoot your gun. Hate the price on big screen t.v.s at Walmart. Just kill a few people.
> J. Marti


So are guns the fault? No, it is the person. They could use a machette, acid, .... etc. It is not the gun's, fault. Nor the machette's or acid's. It is the person.


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## Terry Britton (Jul 3, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> So what would you do?
> 
> My son is 5 years old and is in a pre-k program. This week he was the star student so he was asked to put together a poster board with pictures of what he likes to do. Basically take a snap shot of his hobbies and put them on the poster board. He took it in to school Monday. It was hung up outside the classroom door for all to see. The problem comes in when several parents complained because one of the pictures was of him hunting with me, he had his orange vest on holding his 410 pump shotgun. So since they complained they cornered my wife when she was picking up my son on Wed and made her and my son color over the gun with a marker. To say the least I am extremely upset and can not believe that they would make my son feel like he had something wrong on his board. I am raising my son to appreciate the outdoors and our country. There is no school policy that is written or that has been verbally expressed about this and they told my wife that they would be adopting a new school policy so that this issue would not arise again.
> 
> ...



I just caught this thread. My son is 4 years old in a pre-K program, and will be in kindergarten next year. This is the age where kids get stuck on one thing like many boys will only wear Transformers shirts or Spiderman shirts. 

Austin has to wear a "deer" shirt, or a Cabelas or Bass Pro shop shirt. He also loves playing Cabelas Big Game Hunter and Cabelas Big Game Hunter 2010 on the Wii. He educates his teachers and class on geography and many animals like Nyala, Heartbeast, Egyptian Geese, and his favorite Kudu. He educates them that Patagonia is in Argentina in South America, and Nambia and Etheopia are located in Africa while Finland is in Europe. He knows what animals goes where.

Also thanks to trips to Bass Pro shops, when asked what his favorite animal in the ocean is, he spouts out Mahi Mahi. 

The parents and teachers actually appreciate his appreciation for hunting, and the knowledge of the wildlife and geography it brings.

I did take him out during muzzleloader season last fall for 5 days where he spotted deer that I had a hard time seeing. He stayed quiet, and wasn't noisy in the blind I got for the trip to my parents.

The parents in that school along with the administration could learn a thing or two about diversity, wildlife and the outdoors.


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

I have a boys, ages 7 and 4, and I would be ticked it they did that here! My kids love helping us train and being a part of what we do with our dogs. I wouldn't be happy if someone made them feel like that wasn't ok. I understand that schools have policies about guns and gun related issues, but if the picture didn't violate any of their school codes, they shouldn't have anything to say about it. I would just explain to the teacher your point of view and why it upset you. I am sure you can come to an understanding.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> OK, now I'm really confused. I'm still trying to figure out what the Bible has to do with any of this..... Check that expiration date....you're smokin' some bad juju. ;-)


Or drinking some bad Leinenkugel's

I am truly conflicted about this idea of whether a child's poster which includes a gun can be objected to by other parents with children in the school.

I understand the right to bear arms because citizens must have the right to protect themselves against tyrants and dictators and have the means to rise up against the government. (Although, as a bad shot, and being older than dirt, I don't know how useful I would be against a tank.)

I also understand why some people are scared about allowing guns in schools or even allowing the possible perception of guns being allowed in schools by allowing a picture of a classmate with a gun. I don't have a problem with the poster but I understand why some parents might.

It's like a field test in which you expect people not to run bitches in season, or dogs who will attack your dog on a honor. One could argue a field test is a private event in which entrants agree to the rules. But, in the end, anyone can enter the event with an eligible dog so it really isn't such a restricted event. Except you could get kicked out of tests if you don't comply with the community-approved rules

It's like this delicately balanced line: are their laws against a poster depicting a child with a gun. NO. But there are now rules against bringing guns into schools, even IF millions of school children could bring guns into schools with no safety problem. 

Again, I bring up this community issue: when the light is green, you barrel across the intersection. You do so in part because you rely on the other drivers to obey the law about stopping at a red light. 

The law is in effect because the community has agreed to stop at red lights and go at green lights. (Let's not talk about right turn on red

If your school asks you not to bring posters with children with guns, is that a reasonable community response? I don't know.

All I know is I would be really uncomfortable stepping into Walmart and everyone is carrying a gun. Sure, I could have a gun, too, but I'm a bad shot

We are a nation "created under God" and guarantee "freedom of speech" and "the right to bear arms" but I don't know if "the right to bear arms" is the right to bear arms all the time and in every situation.

As I said before, I would rather read your opinions rather than folks just trying to get re-elected to public office. Trying to fit this into an essay about why I hunt, why I own guns, why I love the grouse I just killed, and how guns can be about community, not just laws or rights.

Both a "tree-hugger" and a hunter,

J. Marti


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

kindakinky said:


> Or drinking some bad Leinenkugel's
> 
> I am truly conflicted about this idea of whether a child's poster which includes a gun can be objected to by other parents with children in the school.
> 
> ...


Hi

Crew will at some point leave tank. As far as everyone armed at Wal-Mart, I don't have a problem with law abiding citizens. I would be more alarmed that law abiding citizens are unarmed and one crimminal is armed.

Regards
Jeff
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Hi back,

Even if the crew left the tank, I would need about 3 hours to sight them in

My shooting is like an 18-year-old at a bar: once in a while you get lucky

How do you tell who is law abiding and who is not if everyone could carry guns everywhere? How could the Walmart greeter determine who is a law abiding citizen?

J. Marti




Jeffrey Towler said:


> Hi
> 
> Crew will at some point leave tank. As far as everyone armed at Wal-Mart, I don't have a problem with law abiding citizens. I would be more alarmed that law abiding citizens are unarmed and one crimminal is armed.
> 
> ...


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

In our state you must pass the hunters safety course and attend classes and be atleast 11 years old. There is sound good reason for that I believe. 5 year olds shouldn't carry a loaded gun in the field and I would question the intelligence of some one who condoned this.


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

When I was in junior high & high school, we had a recognized rifle club in our school and a rifle range in our school. Several of us used to bring our guns to school and a teacher would take us hunting after school in the fall, as we did not have a car or driver's license. I do not remember of any negative consequences from this. They did shut down the rifle range because of lead poisoning in the late 1950's. I am nostalgic and I think it was one of the best of times.

Jack


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

junbe said:


> When I was in junior high & high school, we had a recognized rifle club in our school and a rifle range in our school. Several of us used to bring our guns to school and a teacher would take us hunting after school in the fall, as we did not have a car or driver's license. I do not remember of any negative consequences from this. They did shut down the rifle range because of lead poisoning in the late 1950's. I am nostalgic and I think it was one of the best of times.
> 
> Jack


Our HS JROTC has a rimfire range in the outbuilding and we would practice with 100 rounds each morning. The parents who complained had kids smoking weed at 7am in the parking lot. 

I also remember our American History teacher (RIP) who taught the last class of the day, asking us if we wanted to try a new cattle tank for dove after school. He asked if we had our shotguns in our trucks so we could caravan straight from school. Nobody batted any eye, or thought that was strange. Nowadays, we'd have BATF agents lobbing flash-bangs into the classroom and rapelling through windows if that conversation took place!

Oh, and we never had any shootings or other violence more than a good old fist fight now and then. And the girls from MLK street were the best fighters!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Freedom of speech is a delicate matter

Can you 'Yell" fire in a crowded theater..........if there is one??????

Let's let common sense not laws dictate what can and can't be said along with where and when it can or can't....that does not seem to me to have been done in the "poster" matter.

john


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

kindakinky said:


> Or drinking some bad Leinenkugel's
> 
> ...
> Again, I bring up this community issue: when the light is green, you barrel across the intersection. You do so in part because you rely on the other drivers to obey the law about stopping at a red light.
> ...


You missed the main issue here: there was no community or school policy about pictures of children with guns. A few pantywaists whose spawn probably play shoot-em-up video games all weekend complained to the teacher, who then jumped on the child and his mother for the hunting picture and forced them to scribble out the gun.

To use your example let's say you get a ticket for turning right on a red light. You made your turn perfectly legally; stopped, saw no oncoming traffic and turned right. The cop explains that the town plans to pass a law that you can't turn right on red within 500 yards of a school. You knew nothing about the proposed new law; even if you thought it was a good idea do you still think you deserve the ticket?


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