# if you own a FC AFC stud, what do you require?



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

what do you require to breed? i use to see stud owners require all health testing and atleast a JH title just to prove some trainability and desire. lately i have seen fc afc studs being bred to any female with health clearances. no training and no titles and some with absolutely no pedigree.


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Some of them require the check to clear...


----------



## Scott Krueger (Jan 25, 2008)

huntinman said:


> Some of them require the check to clear...


yeah and health is about it...it seems to be getting very flooded imo...breeding fc/afc with jh and sh and asking $1200 seems to be the norm,,,not sure if they are getting asking price though....


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

If the stud is an EIC or CNM carrier, they should require the female is clear. There are still people out there that have no clue.


----------



## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

huntinman said:


> Some of them require the check to clear...


And that is about it. IMO this is a huge diservice to the stud. 

People will rarely ask who the dam is , but will always ask "who the sire or who is he/she out of". So when these very nice or great studs are breed to unproven or worse,just bad bitches, it for the most part reflects back onto the stud. 

Shame


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

A team said:


> So when these very nice or great studs are breed to unproven or worse,just bad bitches,
> Shame


The only way to become a proven producer is to be bred to a quality male. The fact that a bitch does not have a title has little to do with their reproductive ability as we learned in the days before hunt tests and when few bitches were run in field trial competition.

Since this thread seeks information from owners of FC/AFC males and there have been no replies tells much about who visits or does not visit RTF. This FC/AFC stud owner requires brucellosis testing and EIC and CNM status of the female even though my male is clear for both it is helpful to know where potential carrier offspring came from. Also OFA hip and elbow certification. I have never encountered owner resistance for these requirements.


----------



## Danny Castro (Jan 31, 2012)

I agree with Ed, as a owner of an FC stud my requirements are brucellosis testing,EIC and CNM testing even though my male is also clear on both. OFA hip and elbow cert, I also have never had any resistance form these requirements


----------



## Kerry Lavin (Aug 13, 2003)

Ed and Danny, How about a current CERF on the potential dam? Thanks!

Kerry


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

That would be a greater concern for the bitch owner relative to puppy sales, DNA for OSD/RD would be more meaningful as CERF is subjective and subject to variations based on the examiner.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm every FC AFC, I've ever bred to all 1 of them and 1 that's a half point away. Required health testing including hips eyes(has to have been done..might not be current) elbows EIC CNM, performance record, pedigree, even references for dogs hunting ability and reference from someone they knew to vouche for me and my dog. Perhaps some are picky others,not as much. Still as with all things, it's their stud and their choice.



huntinman said:


> Some of them require the check to clear...


That's funny right there..and I don't care who you are


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

so yall as stud owners dont care what traits the btch and her lines bring? not concerened about breeding to a female with no pedigree and no training or even a basic title?


----------



## Danny Castro (Jan 31, 2012)

I always get a copy of the pedigree, but have not really run in to totally unproven bitch owners inquiring to breed to an FC, in most cases the normal everyday person isn't looking to breed light pedigree dogs for the stud fee of an FC, unless they are involed in the dog games.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Trevor Toberny said:


> so yall as stud owners dont care what traits the btch and her lines bring? not concerened about breeding to a female with no pedigree and no training or even a basic title?


What does it matter to you ? Someone ponies up $1500 to breed to my titled stud, They are the ones that have to sell the litter , not me...If one has the luxury of only breeding to other titled dogs, then more power to them...beside who are you to claim that a certain bitch has no pedigree or no training, a piece of paper doesn't always tell the whole story..

Do you think Sherwin Scott worried about who Lean Mac was bred to ? There are owners out there that will only breed to titled females have also narrowed the pool of available bitches...

People who are in the know look for bloodlines and certain traits..The minions and once in a lifetime buyers look no further than titles, and are under the impression that they can buy a future champion because of his rich pedigree


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Trevor Toberny said:


> so yall as stud owners dont care what traits the btch and her lines bring? not concerened about breeding to a female with no pedigree and no training or even a basic title?


Did you read the replies given by the FC-AFC owners your question was posed to?


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

yes and i saw that they listed health requirements but non as far as the bitch or pedigree is concerened so thats why i asked. i asked because i see people point out how important the bitch side is if not more important, same people talk about beterment of the breed. then see that they bred there fc afc titled stud to a female with no titles in pedigree except in 4th generation. i actually called about the litter because it was close and nice stud and at first no pedigree info was listed and the guy tells me his dog is a family pet and does not hunt, no training and doesnt like to retrieve much. so to me i find it odd that the owner of said stud that points out the bitch line is just as important or more will breed to a bitch just because she has health clearances and a check that clears. 

Bon, you asked and so what does it matter to me? should we not all want to know about both sides of the pedigree when buying a pup? or should we just care that the stud is a fc afc? so since sherwin scott didnt care then neither should we? why should the stud owner care they are the ones that have to sell the litter?


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

so tell me Bon, who are some of the people in the "know" that are big names and have big time dogs with a pedigree of no titled dogs because they arent minions and knew what traits they wanted and got them from non titled pedigrees. and i dont mean in the 70's.


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Trevor Toberny said:


> so tell me Bon, who are some of the people in the "know" that are big names and have big time dogs with a pedigree of no titled dogs because they arent minions and knew what traits they wanted and got them from non titled pedigrees. and i dont mean in the 70's.


Have you ever heard of Mary Howley ? not all her Candlewood dogs are titled but she knows bloodlines of her dogs and what to bring in from the outside..

One of the best sires in the last 15 years was Esprit Out Of the Woods, to the naked eye he had no titles, but he nicked well with certain bitches, he was also a full sibling to FC AFC Creek Robber

Mary Tatum also breed well within her bloodline and not all her litters have titled parents

also look at Rainmaker and Erin's Edge here on the RTF, they produce quality dogs because they know and study bloodlines without having the marquis titled dog


I'm not sure what your point is because it seems that you are trying to argue both side of the subject


----------



## David Martin (Jun 26, 2014)

BonMallari said:


> Have you ever heard of Mary Howley ? not all her Candlewood dogs are titled but she knows bloodlines of her dogs and what to bring in from the outside..
> 
> One of the best sires in the last 15 years was Esprit Out Of the Woods, to the naked eye he had no titles, but he nicked well with certain bitches, he was also a full sibling to FC AFC Creek Robber
> 
> ...






Yep Bon, an untitled bitch named "Tiz Too" comes to mind!

Trevor, this is where due dillegence as a buyer comes in. Trevor, at any given time there are two to four studs that people playing the different dog games go gaga over, at the same time there are a couple of "under the radar" studs, but it all comes back to a really nice bitch.

Trevor, someone who has one of the top studs in the game and knows more and has forgotten more about Labrador genetics than you or I posted earlier. Listen because the silence is deafining!


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

yes im familiar with espirit out of the woods, he was also qaa and ran trials and was out of titled prents. like i said im talking about a dog that has no training, no desire to retrieve and has no titles in pedigree. im familiar with Marys breedings,again her sires are usually titled or in process and her dams have had training. 
you are bringing up people who know their pedigree and bloodlines, not a random guy who bought his dog out of paper and has no retrieving desire. not sure how im arguing both sides.


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

David please remind me what i missed? are you referring to ed saying that just because a female has no title has nothing to do with her as far as producing? maybe you have clearly not read what i have wrote. what if the female has NO DESIRE, NO DRIVE. Has NO titles in pedigree till you go far back. so i guess im the odd person and yall would buy pups if the parents had no desire to retrieve and had no pedigree that someone bought out of the paper.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Trevor, this is where due diligence as a buyer comes in. Trevor, at any given time there are two to four studs that people playing the different dog games go gaga over, at the same time there are a couple of "under the radar" studs, but it all comes back to a really nice bitch.


Your choice to buy or not, that's why you study the pedigree in depth. The guy was honest. Maybe he did it to keep a pup and give the rest to friends and family. There are many who are not honest and tell you the dog will enter seniors or masters as soon as they are done with the litter and there is not a chance in hades they will enter anything ever. There are people that have bred dilutes that deny it. You will never be the Breeder Police and yes, some people do think a check that clears is very important, more than the big talk. I bet that's something you know about.

Also there are people that buy females from good pedigrees that have past acl repairs, allergies, or bad temperaments, and breed them to FC using frozen semen and you won't know unless you research it but they can also change the names if they haven't run or been bred before. All kinds of stuff is going on.


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

In addition to eyes, hips, elbows, carrier status and brucellosis, I always research the actual ownership of the bitch, as well as pedigree.


----------



## David Martin (Jun 26, 2014)

Trevor, I get what you're saying. Like I said, it goes back to due dillegence as a buyer!


----------



## David Martin (Jun 26, 2014)

I'll trust Erin and Susan on this, I'll bow out gracefully now...


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

guys, i agree it falls on owner of buyer when it comes to picking a pup. My question was if a stud owner of fc afc atleast makes the female that wants to breed to their stud add to the breed or gene pool. people say the bitch brings as much to the pup as the stud but then by breeding to a female that has no retrieving desire and comes out of the paper and the parents he bought from werent hunters and were just lap dog then pedigree has nothing in it what does that stud owner go off of to think that adds to the gene pool. thats why i asked those with fc afc what they require to breed to their stud. i have gathered that its just health clearances and money.


----------



## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Trevor Toberny said:


> guys, i agree it falls on owner of buyer when it comes to picking a pup. My question was if a stud owner of fc afc atleast makes the female that wants to breed to their stud add to the breed or gene pool. people say the bitch brings as much to the pup as the stud but then by breeding to a female that has no retrieving desire and comes out of the paper and the parents he bought from werent hunters and were just lap dog then pedigree has nothing in it what does that stud owner go off of to think that adds to the gene pool. thats why i asked those with fc afc what they require to breed to their stud. i have gathered that its just health clearances and money.


How do you suggest we fix the problem that you perceive exists?


----------



## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Trevor Toberny said:


> guys, i agree it falls on owner of buyer when it comes to picking a pup. My question was if a stud owner of fc afc atleast makes the female that wants to breed to their stud add to the breed or gene pool. people say the bitch brings as much to the pup as the stud but then by breeding to a female that has no retrieving desire and comes out of the paper and the parents he bought from werent hunters and were just lap dog then pedigree has nothing in it what does that stud owner go off of to think that adds to the gene pool. thats why i asked those with fc afc what they require to breed to their stud. i have gathered that its just health clearances and money.


Let me add my 2 cents worth, I am not a FT persons, we train HT and gun dogs but I know a number of them and I like and appreciate everyone of them for what they do.

Trevor If you look at any AFC FC male dog, go to his history on EE and see the investment these folks have made to get this dog to this level, You will not see the training expenses, the travel expenses, the pain and suffering at home (Momma) or (Daddy), or the other dog or dogs they were campaigning along the FC AFC trail. God forbid you look at a NFC or NAFC stud. The investment is huge! To recoup your investment ONLY PARTIALLY you can stud your dog out. Most of the guys i know ask the right right questions, but here's the bite from a strictly pedigree evaluation: You might not see what the bitch tried to do and was just out doged.

The guys that have posted and those who have not would not breed to a dog physically unfit and must be verified. Can they audit every request to the success in the field: No they can not but what just might happen with "miss no desire" is a litter that is 50% better than MOM. Is that a bad thing?

Every buyer should do due diligence and expect to get what you pay for.


----------



## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Hmm looks like in most cases the girl decides...as it should be


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

All the effort that goes in will not go in vain no matter what venue you go into.
My penny.


----------



## Tyler Pugh (Mar 27, 2014)

Trevor, was it not too long ago that you were complaining, on Facebook, about this "terrible" website called RTF and all the wanna be trainers that post on here?


----------



## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Grady's dam had zero titles. Should she have been bred?


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

JH, SH, MH, FC or AFC is no indicator of a dog's genetic makeup. 

People like to predict how a certain pairing will turn out. It certainly helps to stack the deck in your favor but the best proof of a successful breeding comes a long time after the pups are produced.

At stud- FC Low Tide's Pounder....


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

John Lash said:


> JH, SH, MH, FC or AFC is no indicator of a dog's genetic makeup.
> 
> People like to predict how a certain pairing will turn out. It certainly helps to stack the deck in your favor but the best proof of a successful breeding comes a long time after the pups are produced.
> 
> At stud- FC Low Tide's Pounder....


What a beautiful pedigree. PM sent


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I don't own a field champion but my dog juice breeds quite a bit, I think roughly 14 breedings in the last 20 months. He is an eic carrier so obviously proof of being clear is my biggest concern. I also inquire about health clearances, brucelosis etc. I've turned down numerous breedings due to the bitch not having all clearances done. Juice is about to go back on the pros truck for more all age training. I make decent money but nothing special, his stud fees help make affording a good field trial pro possible for me. I'm knocking on $25k in him at 4.5 yrs old and he has only run 2 opens in his life. Obviously that number is about to grow. I've done a good bit of his training myself as well. I'm sure plenty of stud owners are in my shoes, every stud fee helps to feed the monster. I've been lucky as pretty much all of the breedings we've done have been to working dogs at the bare minimum. I simply can't afford to turn down breedings to qualified bitches, its that simple. He's a GRHRCH, QA2, made the derby list and jammed his second open. Someone's dog is going to breed these dogs your referencing, it may as well be a dog that can improve the offspring.


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

tyler, refresh my memory but make usre you post exactly what i said.


----------



## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

BonMallari said:


> .
> 
> Do you think Sherwin Scott worried about who Lean Mac was bred to ? There are owners out there that will only breed to titled females have also narrowed the pool of available bitches...


Sherwin Scott is dead, if he was still alive he could better answer some issues and questions raised in this post around the question of "do the stud owners care who they breed their dogs to" .
I can only speak to the relationship and the dealings I have had with Sherwin Scott. All our contractual agreements were concluded with our word on what we said we would do and a hand shake.
Sherwin saw my dog run when I competed against his dogs. When the issue of breeding was discussed he asked about her the health clearances, pedigree. 
We had conversations about the dogs, fly fishing and politics in America. 

Did Sherwin breed to any dog? No. I do not think he did his stud advertising outlined his pre-conditions. Further two factors may have factored into it. One was his price structure on stud fee which would eliminate some owners from stepping up to the plate to have their females bred to Lean Mac. The second was Lean Mac has an enviable record. The owners of some female dogs may have felt their dogs were unworthy if they felt their dog could bring very little or nothing to the table for credentials of any kind be in competition in any venue. For the owner of the untitled hunting dog regardless of its prowess as hunter, if his or her hunting partners don't step up to buy his expensive pups, the great female hunting is not going to get bred to the most sought after stud dogs. 

The female dog's prowess as a hunter might be measured by or when the hunting partners proclaim and will follow through with the purchase of a pup from said great female hunting dog. Somehow price does seem to matter for a hunting dog.

As a side note, Bob Beck who owned Aces High III, a great dog, said in a conversation with me that he regretted he was not more picky who he bred "Willy" to.

The owners of the males are focused on competitions and winning. By virtue of their efforts they put a product out there that is desirable to be bred to ( a better mouse trap) . The benefit we have is a broad choice of litters to choose from. We are somewhat limited in not being able to see some of the dogs perform first hand so by default we look at performance records, health clearances and pedigrees. The pedigree allows us as buyers of pups and for some sellers of pups to have and provide contact names of the dogs in the background of the stud and female. From email exchanges and phone calls much can be pieced together on what will your best partner at your side.

Yes, stud owners do care and take the time to breed to only the those females that will work best or "nick" well. Perhaps others are less knowledgeable about what goes into producing potentially great dogs but none the less hope for the best.

One of the big benefits to those who choose to read the posts on RTF is we are all becoming more knowledgeable and sophisticated in our understanding of these wonderful dogs and what it takes to make them and what it takes to make them great. 

More good dogs are produced than we have good trainers/handlers for them.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

For our pedigree experts on rtf Lady Andrel's Nighthawk Lady.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

There are liars, cheats, scam artists, everywhere. Everybody gets taken at some point. Professional websites, plastering social media, putting on a nice front to cover up the lies about previous breedings, misinformation about health clearances, dogs and puppies warehoused, puppies dying from disease, living in filth and the stench of urine and feces, you think having a pedigree and clearances removes that potential? I could point out litters listed right now that look fine on paper, but boy oh boy, BUYER and STUD OWNER beware. Just about have to hire a private investigator anymore, some people are so slick.

So I think a tad more goes into breeding and raising and placing puppies than what's on paper. I am a big fan of paper, big believer in FT titles being the cream of the crop. But, there are actually worse things than a "nothing" pedigree.


----------



## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

Lots of Folks said:


> people talk about beterment of the breed...


I wanted to touch on this statement because it's one I've heard a lot. Lets say Joe Schmoe has an AKC registered female with zero titled dogs in 3-generation pedigree and zero health clearances. He decides to cough up $1500 to breed to a top stud. If this breeding happens successfully he probably sells the pups for ~$1000 a pop and makes a little cash if it's a big healthy litter.

Now, what if the owner of that AFC/FC stud thumbs his nose at Joe? Do you really think Joe is going to have some revelation that makes him train his dog and earn titles and do all the health clearances? Not a fat chance especially when his girl is in heat and time is of the essence. He's going to find any other AKC registered male, use a case of beer as the stud fee and make ~$300 a pup on Craigslist.

In both outcomes there's likely 10 more Labrador Retrievers in the world. Which set of 10 is "bettering the breed?"


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

"Bettering the Breed" is a catch phrase used mostly by puppy mills. It's just a form of marketing. It sounds good but people also have a fit when Limited Registration is put on a litter, really only to make sure people do health testing before breedng. You probably won't have trouble buying a "bettering the breed" litter because they will offer Full registration in order to sell them and it works. There are lots of people that keep having kids when they are out of work but telling them not to would be infringing on their rights. When Joe Schmoe can't sell puppies for $1,000, I bet he will think twice about doing breeding again.


----------



## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

bamajeff said:


> Grady's dam had zero titles. Should she have been bred?


Grady's dam, Ms Lean Mac'ce had no titles. You need to show and share what you what you know or don't know.
For someone looking at your statement in your post it would suggest some would conclude that untitled females should be bred because we would miss having great dogs like Grady if we limited ourselves to breeding only to titled bitches.
What needs to be understood by the readers of your post that your argument is supported by other factors that you may beware of though many others may not be aware of.
1. Ms Lean Mac'ce has three asterix after her name indicating qualifying placing or all age placing's in amateur or the open.
2. Her litter mate was Fargo II which was a FC AFC and produced 31 titled field trial champions be it open or amateur in the USA or Can.
3. Her first breeding was to Hawkeye's Candlewood Shadow which produced a dog that made the US Derby list.
4. Chad Baker wanted a dog out of Code Blue, the number of straws was finite. Code Blue died Aug 15, 2000. He lived barely over 10 years.
5. Code Blue was producing Field Champions (25) in approximately 22 breedings. That is a a very good ratio.
6. Code Blue was throwing champions that in turn were throwing champions.
7. Chad Baker was seeing offspring of Lean Mac nicked well with Code Blue or he had the benefit of learning that from Mary Howley.

In conclusion your statement in your post is accurate, yet to some who do not study pedigree's it is misleading as it would have the readers come to right conclusion for the wrong reason.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Grady's first breeding was to an untitled bitch, although she was running field trials and had some derby placements and ran Quals, and she had a Candlewood pedigree bred by Mary Howley. They produced 2012 NAFC Traveler, FC Dude, and 2 QAA females in that first litter


----------



## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Ironwood said:


> Grady's dam, Ms Lean Mac'ce had no titles. You need to show and share what you what you know or don't know.
> For someone looking at your statement in your post it would suggest some would conclude that untitled females should be bred because we would miss having great dogs like Grady if we limited ourselves to breeding only to titled bitches.
> What needs to be understood by the readers of your post that your argument is supported by other factors that you may beware of though many others may not be aware of.
> 1. Ms Lean Mac'ce has three asterix after her name indicating qualifying placing or all age placing's in amateur or the open.
> ...


I agree. What I neglected to say is I look at bloodlines more than just what titles a dog has. When I bought my pup, I really liked the pedigree even though the sire/dam neither had titles because the breeder doesn't compete in HT or FT. He is very knowledgeable and breeds for performance, just doesn't compete. In her 5 generation pedigree, she has 12 HOF dogs 25 FC/AFC, 4 GRHRCH. So far, I couldn't be happier with where my pup is at for being 4.5 months old. She's showing a lot of promise. If it comes to the point I want to have a litter from her, I will look for bloodlines that will cross with her moreso than a pure title search. While history of performance in the line will be important, it will also need to be a line that I feel will cross well with her lines.


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Thi was my point exactly, some dog is going to get the job done. It may as well be a good one


ks_hunting said:


> I wanted to touch on this statement because it's one I've heard a lot. Lets say Joe Schmoe has an AKC registered female with zero titled dogs in 3-generation pedigree and zero health clearances. He decides to cough up $1500 to breed to a top stud. If this breeding happens successfully he probably sells the pups for ~$1000 a pop and makes a little cash if it's a big healthy litter.
> 
> Now, what if the owner of that AFC/FC stud thumbs his nose at Joe? Do you really think Joe is going to have some revelation that makes him train his dog and earn titles and do all the health clearances? Not a fat chance especially when his girl is in heat and time is of the essence. He's going to find any other AKC registered male, use a case of beer as the stud fee and make ~$300 a pup on Craigslist.
> 
> In both outcomes there's likely 10 more Labrador Retrievers in the world. Which set of 10 is "bettering the breed?"


----------



## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

John Lash said:


> At stud- FC Low Tide's Pounder....



i am thankful so many of the owners of fc afc males are open to breeding their fine animals. 

i bred my untitled bitch last spring. "FC AFC Stinger" was my choice. i conducted discussions for over two years with a list that would be considered a "who's who" of current titled stud owners. every owner i spoke with except one, was willing to allow a natural breeding. Mr. Fred Kampo, stinger's owner, has to be one of the kindest and easiest people in the world to work with. Fred's trainer, Mike Lardy was a pleasure to work with and Mike and i "handled dogs" well together.;-) we have made very fine labrador retrievers. i hope we have made very fine performance dogs too. time will tell.

my admiration for Mr. John Lash's dog, FC AFC LB began during LB's derby career. if John remains agreeable.......LB is next!


----------



## LJS (Sep 4, 2015)

I'm not new but this post actually made me register. It is shocking to me the responses people posted. They seem like little more than justifications. The OP is pointing out that when an owner of an FC AFC breeds to a female with little in the way of pedigree and is obviously just breeding his sire to someone who is just trying to make a buck, people such as myself can decipher these breeders and it is in turn a poor reflection of the stud owner. When we see a female bred 2 heat cycles in a row to the same FC stud, we remember and ask ourselves why the FC owner would breed to that female. And yes people like me who is not a trainer, has nothing more than dreams of owning an FC but will likely only ever have a decent meat dog that we are fond of, are also smart enough to know we aren't talking about Grady's momma or Candlewood breedings. As stated above, there are way more good, capable dogs being bred, than there are capable trainers and owners. So why is someone with a great dog breeding to these kinds of females. I understand you need to recoup money, and that why not to a certain extant if the female has clearances, but hopefully you also realize that these justifications do diminish the ability of people such as myself to buy a decent dog for a decent price too. Someone mentioned 1200 bucks above. Hell, we can't even find that anymore. There was a litter recently by a lesser known National Finalist to a female whose pedigree was not even listed or linked on his website for 2K. When I see a litter for a reasonable price by a well known FC now, I ask myself what is wrong with those pups. Probably nothing and they were likely bred by someone who knows what he's doing and has common sense. But just be aware, who you breed your FC to does have reputation consequences. I also realize if I went to more trials and got to know more people in the trial world, many of these issues would likely go away.


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

When you have 100k in a male that is still competing come back and tell your sob story. And I don't see anyone breeding to junk pedigrees when I look at litters, pretty well every female has a distinguishable pedigree. I'd like to see all of the critics of Stud owners turn down 1000-2000 stud fees because the bitch isint titled. That's not realistic for the average person



LJS said:


> I'm not new but this post actually made me register. It is shocking to me the responses people posted. They seem like little more than justifications. The OP is pointing out that when an owner of an FC AFC breeds to a female with little in the way of pedigree and is obviously just breeding his sire to someone who is just trying to make a buck, people such as myself can decipher these breeders and it is in turn a poor reflection of the stud owner. When we see a female bred 2 heat cycles in a row to the same FC stud, we remember and ask ourselves why the FC owner would breed to that female. And yes people like me who is not a trainer, has nothing more than dreams of owning an FC but will likely only ever have a decent meat dog that we are fond of, are also smart enough to know we aren't talking about Grady's momma or Candlewood breedings. As stated above, there are way more good, capable dogs being bred, than there are capable trainers and owners. So why is someone with a great dog breeding to these kinds of females. I understand you need to recoup money, and that why not to a certain extant if the female has clearances, but hopefully you also realize that these justifications do diminish the ability of people such as myself to buy a decent dog for a decent price too. Someone mentioned 1200 bucks above. Hell, we can't even find that anymore. There was a litter recently by a lesser known National Finalist to a female whose pedigree was not even listed or linked on his website for 2K. When I see a litter for a reasonable price by a well known FC now, I ask myself what is wrong with those pups. Probably nothing and they were likely bred by someone who knows what he's doing and has common sense. But just be aware, who you breed your FC to does have reputation consequences. I also realize if I went to more trials and got to know more people in the trial world, many of these issues would likely go away.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Justin Allen said:


> When you have 100k in a male that is still competing come back and tell your sob story. And I don't see anyone breeding to junk pedigrees when I look at litters, pretty well every female has a distinguishable pedigree. I'd like to see all of the critics of Stud owners turn down 1000-2000 stud fees because the bitch isint titled. That's not realistic for the average person


Thank you Justin.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Justin Allen said:


> When you have 100k in a male that is still competing come back and tell your sob story. And I don't see anyone breeding to junk pedigrees when I look at litters, pretty well every female has a distinguishable pedigree. I'd like to see all of the critics of Stud owners turn down 1000-2000 stud fees because the bitch isint titled. That's not realistic for the average person


I do agree with you for the most part, don't see a lot of "nothing pedigree" bitches getting bred to FC AFC and it really is stud owner's choice, but, also understand where some might wonder, WTH? See a female with this pedigree bred repeatedly to the same FC AFC and you might go, huh, or think, what a waste? Bitch has no titles, never ran anything herself, (name of actual female deleted). So, should that bitch have been bred to another "nothing" dog or was it better to have bred "up"? Some would ask why the bitch was bred at all, but that's another thread for Trevor. ;-) I can see both viewpoints. But not going to crucify stud owners, their dog, their choice.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

To show just how much the bitch owner is in charge of stud decisions, using the same pedigree I posted above, but for a male, with clearances but no titles of any kind, how many quality bitches would he get bred to?


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I would not breed to that dog personally, if the bitch isint out of proven working lines it doesn't intereet me very much. At sone point you have to draw the line and that is over it for me. Honestly I have only been approached a couple of times by people with a pedigree that looked like that, I respectfully declined the breeding. I certainly won't chastise a stud dog owner for breeding to whatever they choose though. Training fees are high and every little bit helps. Everyone wants to breed to 100 point dogs, NFC's and the like. It takes a ton of money to make it happen, not to mention the school bus full that came before. 



Rainmaker said:


> I do agree with you for the most part, don't see a lot of "nothing pedigree" bitches getting bred to FC AFC and it really is stud owner's choice, but, also understand where some might wonder, WTH? See a female with this pedigree bred repeatedly to the same FC AFC and you might go, huh, or think, what a waste? Bitch has no titles, never ran anything herself, (name of actual female deleted). So, should that bitch have been bred to another "nothing" dog or was it better to have bred "up"? Some would ask why the bitch was bred at all, but that's another thread for Trevor. ;-) I can see both viewpoints. But not going to crucify stud owners, their dog, their choice.
> 
> 
> View attachment 24526


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Admittedly I don't look at litters often due to me being an impulse buyer. How often are pedigrees like that getting through to your bigger name dogs? That pedigree is certainly not much to look at, lol.


Rainmaker said:


> To show just how much the bitch owner is in charge of stud decisions, using the same pedigree I posted above, but for a male, with clearances but no titles of any kind, how many quality bitches would he get bred to?


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I don't know, Justin, I just posted that one because I knew about it and it was a good example of what I think LJS meant, I don't recall seeing too many like that getting bred to FC AFC. But throw up a website with some professional photos, lots of fluff with no real info, become a social media expert, and one can spin anything these days. No pedigree? No problem!


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

No doubt about that, there are some good salesman and very uneducated buyers out there. Facebook has certainly brought it to the forefront. 



Rainmaker said:


> I don't know, Justin, I just posted that one because I knew about it and it was a good example of what I think LJS meant, I don't recall seeing too many like that getting bred to FC AFC. But throw up a website with some professional photos, lots of fluff with no real info, become a social media expert, and one can spin anything these days. No pedigree? No problem!


----------



## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Justin Allen said:


> I would not breed to that dog personally, if the bitch isint out of proven working lines it doesn't intereet me very much. At sone point you have to draw the line and that is over it for me. Honestly I have only been approached a couple of times by people with a pedigree that looked like that, I respectfully declined the breeding. I certainly won't chastise a stud dog owner for breeding to whatever they choose though. Training fees are high and every little bit helps. Everyone wants to breed to 100 point dogs, NFC's and the like. It takes a ton of money to make it happen, not to mention the school bus full that came before.


So say she isn't out of "proven working lines" BUT she has health clearances and was amateur/newbie trained and still able to get a MH title with Q placements? You still would turn your nose up to her? Pedigree overrides performance?


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I never said that, I'm assuming the female had no accomplishments to her name forcthexsake if this thread. 



Nick Toti said:


> So say she isn't out of "proven working lines" BUT she has health clearances and was amateur/newbie trained and still able to get a MH title with Q placements? You still would turn your nose up to her? Pedigree overrides performance?


----------



## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Justin Allen said:


> I never said that, I'm assuming the female had no accomplishments to her name forcthexsake if this thread.


I wasn't implying that you said that, not my intention.

I was asking a separate but related question. Would you allow a breeding to that dog if her performance was as stated?


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Rarely does a pedigree like that come with health certs or titles, but if the person has both, I see nothing wrong with doing the breeding. They are upgrading and there have been no pedigree FC's. I ask people how many they have deposits for before breeding, why they are doing the breeding, how they plan to market the pups, and how much do they think they are going to sell them for. If people have a JH on an FC breeding, they are not going to get $2K a puppy. They are welcome to try but there are a lot of nice breedings out there for much less.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> But throw up a website with some professional photos, lots of fluff with no real info, become a social media expert, and one can spin anything these days. No pedigree? No problem!


Don't forget the T-shirts. Folks be aware and do your due diligence. Buying females to breed has always been done, but most are put up for sale because they have some kind of problem, and if it is health problems and they have a nice pedigree, well beware.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Nick Toti said:


> I wasn't implying that you said that, not my intention.
> 
> I was asking a separate but related question. Would you allow a breeding to that dog if her performance was as stated?


If the bitch was MH/QAA, different story, don't know too many stud owners would turn that down, but that's not the case of the female whose pedigree is shown and that Justin and I were discussing.


----------



## Krissye00 (May 3, 2014)

There are a few who require titled bitches, have never spoke to anyone who at minimum didn't at least require health testing, some have asked about pedigree.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Justin Allen said:


> No doubt about that, there are some good salesman and very uneducated buyers out there. Facebook has certainly brought it to the forefront.


Facebook has given the old newspaper type breeders and the scammers a whole new platform.


----------



## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

When talking about bettering the breed, this is how it usually works. You get lucky and fined a bitch that has all the tool and for some reason,( they are many) she has no titles. To proof the line you are trying to start. You want to introduce and good dog with titles, so that you can compete and have some certainty of being excepted within the community. 

Keith


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Justin, clear your inbox.


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Made soon room


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

If I ever have a stud dog that happens to be in demand, I would want to make sure the bitch had health clearances and was in fact a labrador retriever. 

The free market can take care of the rest of it. The owner of the bitch is free to do what he wants with the pups once he has paid for the stud fee... I don't really care from that point on. 

All the betterment of the breed and all that stuff will take care of itself. Bring your checkbook.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Trevor Toberny said:


> yes im familiar with espirit out of the woods, he was also qaa and ran trials and was out of titled prents. like i said im talking about a dog that has no training, no desire to retrieve and has no titles in pedigree. im familiar with Marys breedings,again her sires are usually titled or in process and her dams have had training.
> you are bringing up people who know their pedigree and bloodlines, not a random guy who bought his dog out of paper and has no retrieving desire. not sure how im arguing both sides.


I really think it's a moot point as I can't imagine mr. random guy knowing enough to seek out a titled sire with its associated high stud fee to breed his untalented bitch to, but if he did, what would it matter? As long as all the health clearances were in place, the titled stud would only help the gene pool get a little better. Better imo, than mr. random breeding his untalented bitch to an equally untalented stud.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Krissye00 said:


> There are a few who require titled bitches, have never spoke to anyone who at minimum didn't at least require health testing, some have asked about pedigree.


Well, well, this is the person that sent me the graphic with a Silver Labrador on Kim's "supposed website" which of course she claims she didn't make up, but she did readily pass it around. Thought we wouldn't notice? Of course, she has 4 litters advertised but no accomplishments on EE as opposed to Kim who we know and love who has multiple QAA and MH's and who is known as honest and a breeder of Yellows, Chocolates, and Blacks and NOT Silvers ever.


----------



## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Hey, I'm sure a lot of thought and effort/planning went into choosing just the right studs for those 4 dogs!!


ErinsEdge said:


> Well, well, this is the person that sent me the graphic with a Silver Labrador on Kim's "supposed website" which of course she claims she didn't make up, but she did readily pass it around. Thought we wouldn't notice? Of course, she has 4 litters advertised but no accomplishments on EE as opposed to Kim who we know and love who has multiple QAA and MH's and who is known as honest and a breeder of Yellows, Chocolates, and Blacks and NOT Silvers ever.


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

John, I respect your posts and this gentleman that has a couch dog that wont retrieve anything and he said her parents were the same way and lived with an older couple and they were just house dogs. he had a pedigree on his dog and there was nothing. he mentioned he bought her out of the newspaper. i guess we are lucky enough that he had enough sense to breed to a fc afc instead o another back yard dog. People keep saying things about an untitled mom of pups and yes there are great dogs that are out of non titled bitches but AGAIN this guy bred to a fc afc with not only an untitled bitch with no desire but a full pedigree of non titled dogs and dogs that dont have desire.
i will drop it since i guess im the only one that feels the way i do.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Trevor Toberny said:


> John, I respect your posts and this gentleman that has a couch dog that wont retrieve anything and he said her parents were the same way and lived with an older couple and they were just house dogs. he had a pedigree on his dog and there was nothing. he mentioned he bought her out of the newspaper. i guess we are lucky enough that he had enough sense to breed to a fc afc instead o another back yard dog. People keep saying things about an untitled mom of pups and yes there are great dogs that are out of non titled bitches but AGAIN this guy bred to a fc afc with not only an untitled bitch with no desire but a full pedigree of non titled dogs and dogs that dont have desire.
> i will drop it since i guess im the only one that feels the way i do.


I don't think you've taken an unreasonable position, just asked a question. You haven't really condemned the practice just wondered about it. Like many of us have posted, the breeding doesn't bother me, now the next question is how does he plan to market the pups. I really don't think this guy should market them to hunt test or even hunters, they should be considered high quality pets. If he plans on selling to hunt test homes, he should be upfront about the bitch side, that's where the puppy buyers really have to do their homework. Big difference between this breeding and another that is an FC/AFC male bred to an untitled female out of strong field lines.


----------



## LJS (Sep 4, 2015)

Justin Allen said:


> When you have 100k in a male that is still competing come back and tell your sob story. And I don't see anyone breeding to junk pedigrees when I look at litters, pretty well every female has a distinguishable pedigree. I'd like to see all of the critics of Stud owners turn down 1000-2000 stud fees because the bitch isint titled. That's not realistic for the average person



Nothing I said had anything to do with a sob story. And I wouldn't turn down a breeding just because it didn't have a title. This isn't what we are taliking about. We are talking about breeding to a female that has no titles in 3-4 generations. But I'm all for doing whatever you want, I'm just pointing out that it does have reputation consequences.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

LJS said:


> Nothing I said had anything to do with a sob story. And I wouldn't turn down a breeding just because it didn't have a title. This isn't what we are taliking about. We are talking about breeding to a female that has no titles in 3-4 generations. But I'm all for doing whatever you want, I'm just pointing out that it does have reputation consequences.


As long as the breeder is upfront and honest about the bitch line when he or she markets the pups, I don't see a problem. I don't see how it would hurt the studs reputation,, I seriously doubt any serious ft or ht puppy buyer would buy a pup just based on the sire, these pups would be sold as pets with some good hunting potential.


----------



## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Trevor Toberny said:


> i will drop it since i guess im the only one that feels the way i do.


Don't have a dog in the fight? Don't worry about those who do. Most are fully capable of taking care of themselves and their dogs "reputation".


----------



## sick lids (Sep 25, 2012)

Any thoughts on what a pup might cost if only fc-afc was bred to fc-afc, the gene pool would be ridiculously small. Breeding high caliber dogs to the pet market can only be a good thing for the breed as a whole when done responsibly.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I don't give a rats ass who breeds what to what. It is up to the BUYER of the puppy to do their due diligence when making a purchase. This improving the breed is a load of crap and usually thrown out there by people who are not even on the fringe of producing top class dogs. If I were fortunate enough to own an FC, and I won't cause I don't enjoy the game, I would breed to whomever I wanted to. It is a joke for someone not even in the game to tell people they are wrong to breed to untitled bitches. I'd bet my lunch money if someone wrote them a 2k check the same people would breed to a freaking wiener dog.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> people such as myself can decipher these breeders and it is in turn a poor reflection of the stud owner.When we see a female bred 2 heat cycles in a row to the same FC stud, we remember and ask ourselves why the FC owner would breed to that female.


 I totally don't get this whole post. First of all, what's wrong with breeding two times in a row.? Repro vets actually advise it. Maybe it was a good nick and the pups were great.




> but hopefully you also realize that these justifications do diminish the ability of people such as myself to buy a decent dog for a decent price too. Someone mentioned 1200 bucks above. Hell, we can't even find that anymore.


 You are totally not looking around much 



> When I see a litter for a reasonable price by a well known FC now, I ask myself what is wrong with those pups. Probably nothing and they were likely bred by someone who knows what he's doing and has common sense.


Now that is really poor reasoning. Kind of like the people that won't buy the last pup in a litter because something must be wrong with him.


> But just be aware, who you breed your FC to does have reputation consequences.


 It's not like everyone knows who you breed to


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

It is amazing isn't it Nancy? Where have the knowledgeable people gone on this site. We have neophytes questioning FC breeders and owners and supposed trainers suggesting running dogs for a mile behind a four wheeler holding bumpers. I really fear that some of the advice here is going to injure someone dogs and/or at the least make some newbies make some bad decisions regarding their dogs. Scary to me.


----------



## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

duk4me said:


> It is amazing isn't it Nancy? Where have the knowledgeable people gone on this site. We have neophytes questioning FC breeders and owners and supposed trainers suggesting running dogs for a mile behind a four wheeler holding bumpers. I really fear that some of the advice here is going to injure someone dogs and/or at the least make some newbies make some bad decisions regarding their dogs. Scary to me.


Yes Duk4me send me a PM and i will tell you the benefits of running dogs with objects in their mouths, OH and by the way I am not a supposed trainer but support 37 kennels and function on 165 acres of my own land . Who the hell are you, show me your name.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Hey Terry, I think it's cocktail hour in Texas. Might as well have fun!


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Terry you don't read very well do you? Name is in plain site. Keep running them greyhounds. Btw how many of the lower 48 states open dove season on Sept 1st?


----------



## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

duk4me said:


> Terry you don't read very well do you? Name is in plain site. Keep running them greyhounds. Btw how many of the lower 48 states open dove season on Sept 1st?


You are right dyslexic from birth, Thank god my greyhounds can read.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

You do have a nice website and a place to envy. Nice grounds. You should put your website address in your sig line on here.


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Duk4me, you have every right to not read a post if you dont like it but feel free to make some new threads that could benefit the newbies with all of your knowledge and retriever training wisdom. ive recently seen people bashed that have a few females that they breed because they are "new" and their bitches may not have titles but the rest of pedigree is stacked with titles and dogs who run. some of them have been bashed for breeding to a stud who is "only" qaa or a MH but yet people wouldnt bash the owner of the fc afc who bred to a no pedigree no desire female. I hear these same people make comments over and over " the bitch line is just as important if not more " or " choose a bitch with best possible bitch lines" but then breed to a bitch with NO desire and out of two parents with NO desire and nothing on paper behind them.


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

I dont know Terry personally but he has anice place and has people that trust him with their dogs and if he chooses to road his dogs with a bumper in their mouth thats his choice.


----------



## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

and duk4me, there are plenty of threads from newbies needed help with training, why dont you spend some time commenting on their post and help.


----------



## LJS (Sep 4, 2015)

I mentioned you can't find a nice FC litter for 1200. You suggested I look around. That was just a price someone else said, not me, but you don't have any FC litters on your site and the females don't even have a JH title. Not that a JH title is worth much. But I guess if I look around more as you suggested, you would fall into the rip off category. More power to you if you're getting them sold, but it's funny you suggested I look around and then your site has inferior litters to even what we are discussing here. We are discussing FC to not much. Your litters are only MH to not much. Pedigree wise speaking only. I'm sure your dogs are nice dogs.


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

LJS said:


> I mentioned you can't find a nice FC litter for 1200. You suggested I look around. That was just a price someone else said, not me, but you don't have any FC litters on your site and the females don't even have a JH title. Not that a JH title is worth much. But I guess if I look around more as you suggested, you would fall into the rip off category. More power to you if you're getting them sold, but it's funny you suggested I look around and then your site has inferior litters to even what we are discussing here. We are discussing FC to not much. Your litters are only MH to not much. Pedigree wise speaking only. I'm sure your dogs are nice dogs.


Wow, nice compliment at the end of that paragraph.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Wow....I agree as well.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Terry Marshall said:


> You are right dyslexic from birth, Thank god my greyhounds can read.


 Wow…you need to keep perceptive on what you have. 

You have a place….


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

See there Terry I gave you some free advertising.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

BJGatley said:


> Wow....I agree as well.


What you talkin bout Willis who you agreeing with?


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

duk4me said:


> What you talkin bout Willis who you agreeing with?


With John...


----------



## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

duk4me said:


> What you talkin bout Willis who you agreeing with?


Me, I think.


----------



## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Trevor Toberny said:


> and duk4me, there are plenty of threads from newbies needed help with training, why dont you spend some time commenting on their post and help.


Nah I don't even have a dog. I'm more a cat person.


----------

