# Grrrrrrowling Chessie, Here we go!



## Guest (Sep 25, 2008)

*Grrrrrrowling Chessie, Here we go! **updated with Day Two****

OK, today IS THE DAY...

I have FF'd the first three dogs -- did them first because I knew they would do well and start me off with a good attitude.  Now I have to go do the boykin, who I know is a really nice dog, but she will probably at least temporarily fall apart. 

THEN THE CHESSIE...

He has been growling more frequently, that's not good. If I stand there and touch the back of his head -- just stand there with my hand on the back of his head -- he growls... hmmmm... So today is judgment day. Or the next few days are at least.

Yes, I have procrastinated a bit, not out of fear but partly because of bitches in heat and then the last couple of weeks as I continued to get a read on him. So here we go...

I have yet to see anything indicate that he's going to follow through with anything after the growling. And after he growls if I call him here and say sit, he acts like nothing happens. I'm hoping that I can at least get him FF'd and then if he has to go, he has to go. 

THANK YOU everyone for your advice. His owner has read the thread and we have discussed it on several occasions. I'll see him again Friday, so we can follow up then.

Anyway I'll be back typing shortly if I have any fingers left.  ...I shouldn't joke like that... famous last words.

-K


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Daggone, Kristie!!! You might want to get one of those padded suits that guard dog trainers' assistants wear before you start.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Hey Kristie, I just said a little prayer for you.


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

Kristie,
My male CBR (the one in the avatar) will growl if I touch his hindquarters. (This is a dog I know would give his life for me should the situation arise.) It's not a lip curling growl, just a kind of rumble. When I tell him to knock it off, he does. 

The Chessies are such a vocal breed, sometimes they just rumble. I haven't seen the dog you're training, so I am sure not presuming to judge. I guess I'm just saying that I won't be surprised if it all goes well. Good luck and happy training.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

Kristy

Good luck and I too will say a prayer for you.

I'm with the group that thinks this particular dog is not worth the risks.

For 5 cents you or the owner can make this problem go away with a 22 pistol.

Life is too short to spend time* needlessly *scared or worried. 

....Don


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

I doubt he is even really growling, sounds more like Roooing as Chessie folks call it. Similar to a cats purr. I have had many friends who have thought mine were growling when they really were actually making a happy sound. I tell them the difference is, if he is really growling you won't question what he is doing, it will be like a scene out of Cujo.

Leave the .22 remarks for the useless pointer breeds.


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

IowaBayDog said:


> I doubt he is even really growling, sounds more like Roooing as Chessie folks call it. Similar to a cats purr. I have had many friends who have thought mine were growling when they really were actually making a happy sound. I tell them the difference is, if he is really growling you won't question what he is doing, it will be like a scene out of Cujo.


Nicely put.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

IowaBayDog said:


> I doubt he is even really growling, sounds more like Roooing as Chessie folks call it. Similar to a cats purr. I have had many friends who have thought mine were growling when they really were actually making a happy sound. I tell them the difference is, if he is really growling you won't question what he is doing, it will be like a scene out of Cujo.
> 
> Leave the .22 remarks for the useless pointer breeds.


I have yet to see a Chessie or any breed for that matter, making happy sounds while FF'ing. But, I have seen a few vocal Chessies. From "rooing" to just plain growling while they are high and happy. I am pretty certain from reading Kristie's past posts, she is pretty darned good at reading the dog. There is a difference with Chessies for certain. I haven't seen many vocal labs or Goldens but, as soon as I say this I am sure there will be 10 posts telling me I am wrong...

I have FF'd a biter. Put the toe hitch or ear pinch and he was trying to escape the pressure. Frickin gator dog.....bolted him down to a table...

Does the Chessie ever growl in non-intimidating or confrontational/protective situations or, only when FF'ing? 

How bonded is the Chessie to the owner versus you? If, he is overly bonded to the owner, the owner may need to do the FF'ing/pressure. My feeling is the Chessie many times needs to trust where the pressure is coming from and the person giving it. If, someone else tries and trust/bond is not established, I could see it causing problems....

Just what came to mind at a glance......Paul


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2008)

Day One Report...










Here's how he was attached to the deck rail.

It actually went quite well. He's just been more growly lately in general. I'm not scared of him, I wasn't scared to do the lesson. But I'm not stupid either, at least I don't think so. At the same time, I'm very stubborn and historically refuse to quit on any dog, usually with reasonably decent results...

SO... First, I inserted the bumper, told him hold and praised. 

I had my wingman, Drew, ready to save me if anything were to go wrong. Just so nobody thought I was doing this alone. And, I will NEVER train him alone.

I went right into the pinch after the one hold. He growled, I held fast told him quiet and got the bumper in, no problem. Did another 2-3 like that with growling, I think less each time.

Then he started reaching pretty quickly, which I was impressed with. EXCEPT, and technically this can be a good thing, he started REALLY grabbing the bumper, snatching it. Which is SUPER, but I know part of it is out of "anger" so to speak. But still a good job putting it together.

He never once went for me. A couple of times, he curled his head away in avoidance, but came back when I said "here". Several times, I let him sit, hold and cool off while I praised him. 

A few times, he had the flying saucer eyes that are really wide. And a few times he had pissed off body language.

But overall, I thought the lesson went really great and he hung in there and actually understood what I was asking.

We'll see what tomorrow brings.

BTW, I also wore a reinforced glove on my "bumper" hand (nothing on my pinching hand). And I had him restrained comfortably tight to the deck so that if he were to try anything, I would only have to back off a little to be out of range. I kept my body back and away as I pinched.

I'll keep you posted, but overall I was pleased. Then I took him for a walk when we were done so he could have some downtime with me and so I could see if he was "mad" or not... He was fine.

I'm still on the fence, but was pleased with this lesson. Thanks again for your concern and advice. I understand BOTH sides. And if I were giving advice, I, too, would be on the side that says not worth the risk. But there's something different about this dog and I feel like I can get him through training.

-K


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2008)

He's Cujo growling maybe 15% of the time, and the low gutteral warning growl the other time. It's certainly when he's agitated. I've come to the conclusion that it's just about any time he feels affronted -- whether it's physically or with his space.

The growling itself has gotten "worse" instead of better (more frequent) and that is not good. I'm "hoping" (bad word choice -- I heard recently that Hope is the first step towards disappointment or something like that LOL) that FF will take him down a few pegs.

-K


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Glad that everything went all right Kristie...sigh of relief...smart to have someone else there to help in case things go haywire...

He looks like a rather relaxed boy in the picture....

It could be that because of his age he is really just trying to see what he can get away with...And it is great that he is learning that he can't get away with anything..LOL...

Juli


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## Wayne Dibbley (Jul 20, 2005)

Good job Kristie!!

Wayne Dibbley
www.retrievercoach.com


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

Kristie,
The dog in the picture looks, for the most part, happy and relaxed. Tail set is particularly telling. You look pretty happy and relaxed too. Hope it continues to go well for you both.


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## Susie Royer (Feb 4, 2005)

Larkin said:


> Kristie, my male CBR (the one in the avatar) will growl if I touch his hindquarters. (This is a dog I know would give his life for me should the situation arise.) It's not a lip curling growl, just a kind of rumble. When I tell him to knock it off, he does.


Strange, a show "dog" CH that doesn't like to be "touched", especially in the REAR? No wonder you had to drive what, over 50k miles to finish him LMAO



CBR KAIE said:


> I have yet to see a Chessie or any breed for that matter, making happy sounds while FF'ing. But, I have seen a few vocal Chessies. From "rooing" to just plain growling while they are high and happy. I am pretty certain from reading Kristie's past posts, she is pretty darned good at reading the dog. There is a difference with Chessies for certain. I haven't seen many vocal labs or Goldens but, as soon as I say this I am sure there will be 10 posts telling me I am wrong...Paul


Your absolutely right Paul...a rooooo is a happy expression like when you have human Dad's tennis shoe in your mouth and you know that no one is fast enough to catch you and take it away LOL I am thinkin this dog is just testing the water like Juli stated. I am also confident that Kristie is capable of knowing the difference between a happy roo rooooooooo roo and a not so happy low growl which BTW I absolutely will not tolerate!


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## Fowl Play WA (Sep 16, 2008)

Susie Royer said:


> Your absolutely right Paul...a rooooo is a happy expression like when you have human Dad's tennis shoe in your mouth and you know that no one is fast enough to catch you and take it away LOL I am thinkin this dog is just testing the water like Juli stated. I am also confident that Kristie is capable of knowing the difference between a happy roo rooooooooo roo and a not so happy low growl which BTW I absolutely will not tolerate!


My childhood chessie chewed off the ends of a plastic baseball bat and would run around "rooo"ing. It was a megaphone and it sounded so loud. It sure scared people.


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## meat hunter (Oct 4, 2007)

I believe that almost any dog that becomes aggressive does so out of fear I believe Chessies are so soft they become fear biters very easy. Chessies fold under pressure and some people read this as stubborn behavior and push harder instead of slowing down and getting the dogs confidence back Chessies are great dogs just very soft. Most Chessie owners like the myth of big tough dog and they are as far as the elements are concerned but are soft where pressure is concerned. I think the successful Chessie people recognize this and train accordingly? This is just been my experience. Would like to here from the Chessie people on this take. EK


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## Norene S. (Feb 23, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Day One Report...
> But there's something different about this dog and I feel like I can get him through training.
> -K


Kristie,
Sometimes are instincts/feelings are all we have to go by. Sounds like you are taking the necessary precautions, and you most certainly know what you are doing.

I'm sure in the end whatever you decide to do will be in the best interest for both of you.

Good Luck.....

Norene S.
Nordom Chesapeakes


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2008)

I guess I just figure whether I train him or not, he's going to be an butthole... So maybe I can get something out of him and he can hunt and do whatever. I also figured, legally (and we're still talking about the liability stuff) that as soon as I had him for any period of time, there's still technically a liability. My contract says that there is no guarantee of success in training. I have been sued ONE time by a crazy lady that freaked out that her dog got scraped up playing (NO fight, literally just some scrapes on her hock and one on her side) and pulled her from training. The contract held up in court as far as her actually still owing me money for training, which I told the judge I didn't want... anyway, I don't know what the legality is here and I suppose I should find out. I do know that it's generally difficult to assign liablity to me as a trainer from what I understand... 

-K


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

meat hunter said:


> ...Chessies fold under pressure and some people read this as stubborn behavior and push harder instead of slowing down and getting the dogs confidence back Chessies are great dogs just very soft. Most Chessie owners like the myth of big tough dog and they are as far as the elements are concerned but are soft where pressure is concerned. I think the successful Chessie people recognize this and train accordingly? This is just been my experience. Would like to here from the Chessie people on this take. EK


I'm not keen on breed generalities but wouldn't argue too loudly with much of that. 

Been my experience that potential aggression/dominance issues are better settled with understood work for the human involved than escalation in kind, so Kristie may be doing exactly what it takes to set things right between them.


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

Good luck, Kristie...and I have just one word for you: Kevlar. ;-)


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

Devlin said:


> Good luck, Kristie...and I have just one word for you: Kevlar. ;-)


I was thinking chainmail!! LOL

He acutally looks really cute . . .


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2008)

Grasshopper said:


> I was thinking chainmail!! LOL
> 
> He acutally looks really cute . . .


He actually is really cute, when he's not growling , and he's very well built and looks great running. The picture doesn't quite do him justice because he's so roped up. But he's a beautiful dog. And when he's happy and having fun, he's absolutely adorable...


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

meat hunter said:


> I believe that almost any dog that becomes aggressive does so out of fear I believe Chessies are so soft they become fear biters very easy. Chessies fold under pressure and some people read this as stubborn behavior and push harder instead of slowing down and getting the dogs confidence back Chessies are great dogs just very soft. Most Chessie owners like the myth of big tough dog and they are as far as the elements are concerned but are soft where pressure is concerned. I think the successful Chessie people recognize this and train accordingly? This is just been my experience. Would like to here from the Chessie people on this take. EK


I'm not a "chessie Person", but have trained several,and would mostly agree with what was said above. Except many I have worked with WERE Indeed stubborn.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

I have 2 CBRs, one soft and does get defensive but never follows through on any biting etc and its a good thing due to how powerful he is. The other is extremely hard headed, 2x4 isn't enough, had to upgrade to a 4x4. It is very hard to change gears to train both of them. 

I am actually FF'ing the soft one at 7 years old. I had sent him to pro to have it done when he was one and the pro told me he didn't need it cause he picked up everything anyway. I think he may have been afraid to do it due to the same concerns Kristie has had. He is progressing well but at about half the pace of my 7 month old lab.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> He actually is really cute, when he's not growling , and he's very well built and looks great running. The picture doesn't quite do him justice because he's so roped up. But he's a beautiful dog. And when he's happy and having fun, he's absolutely adorable...


Careful Kristie! Those brown dogs have a way of getting into your head and then you're hooked.
You're starting to see that CBR are just more opinionated. They pick their friends carefully. Once they decide you are worth their effort there is no problem.

Tim


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## Susie Royer (Feb 4, 2005)

IowaBayDog said:


> I am actually FF'ing the soft one at 7 years old...He is progressing well but at about half the pace of my 7 month old lab.


He is 49 years old in dog years. I am 53 and I move at half the pace I use to


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## RJG (Feb 18, 2005)

Continued good luck, Kristie! I don't know too much about CBR's so it's really interesting to follow his actions and reactions.

I'm reading the notes about your progress with him like one of those old-fashioned serialized magazine stories - can't wait for the next edition of "The Growling Chessie".


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

Susie Royer said:


> He is 49 years old in dog years. I am 53 and I move at half the pace I use to


 He is actually must faster than the pup and still very spry, acts like he is 7 months old just doesn't do well with pressure but he is getting better. You just have to take 3 or 4 days to "teach" something to him before he seems to get it, while the lab has it down in a day or 2. Its not a breed thing, my other chessie was a fast learner as well.

When I started the FF process a couple weeks ago I was using a large hard rubber bumper (no valve), I was doing a little too much for him and he started chomping the bumper and could flatten out those hard bumpers with his mouth. I was shocked to see it since I can't even budge those things with my hands. That only lasted 2 days then he went back to his soft mouthed ways once he figured out what he was supposed to do. Still have all my fingers.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2008)

Day Two Report...

If you ignore the growling, he did incredibly well. He will snatch the bumper like he wants to kill it -- and I think he does.  He grabs it really hard. He doesn't hardmouth, but it's a really aggressive fetch. And, hey, that's great.

He growled -- like Cujo -- every time I pinched him. A couple of times my right hand (holding the bumper) was screaming "get me out of here!!". He never went for me or my hand. 

But a couple of times, in avoidance of the bumper, he turned toward me instead of away. NOT as if he was going to attack, but just curling his head in that direction. I'm trying to find a balance of being forceful and encouraging... Whether to be a little rough or help him out. It's a tough call right now, so I'm erring on just trying to keep it 50/50... When he curled toward me, I just kind of shook him up a little bit to straighten him back out and he did fine with that.

As far as force fetch goes, he's doing incredibly well. But the jury is out on how and when we'll take the restraints off... All of his irritability is directed at the bumper right now and once he gets it, he sits and holds nicely. I think I'll just stay at the railing for a while... 

-K


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

It sounds like he doesn't like the situation but HE has decided that snatching that bumper is in his best interest.
That called "FF" in CBRs.

Tim


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Tim Carrion said:


> It sounds like he doesn't like the situation but HE has decided that snatching that bumper is in his best interest.
> That called "FF" in CBRs.
> 
> Tim


My girl had the same reaction during and after FF'ing and force to water. For a short period of time she would look away on just about everything I set up. It was annoying and tested me a bit. With plenty of birds and consistency she popped right out of it.....Just avoidance of pressure....obviously, we won't let them get their way 

Paul


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Day Two Report...
> 
> But the jury is out on how and when we'll take the restraints off... All of his irritability is directed at the bumper right now and once he gets it, he sits and holds nicely. I think I'll just stay at the railing for a while...
> 
> -K


If I was in your shoes I would start with keeping the neck line on and taking the flank line off....and then, rather than tie the neck line to the top of the railing, tie it to the bottom, so that you can get him to the ground with the restraint still attached....

I would want to make sure he was taking the bumper on the fetch command w/out pressure a good percentage of the time,_ but _if I had to apply pressure to reinforce after a refusal I would want to trust that he would have the right reaction....

Sounds like he is growling out of dislike, not because he is thinking about being aggressive toward you....

glad things are going well!

Juli


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Kristie and others,

Maybe a warning growl is somewhat good...........better than bite first, growl later?


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

So we have done I think our fourth lesson. The growling is a constant response to Fetch. I say fetch, with or without pressure, he growls (CUJO growls, seriously) and snatches the bumper.

He is growling more frequently for lesser things now... Like my facing him sitting and putting a collar on. I don't stop what I'm doing, but I'm getting tired of the growling.

The other day, I went to get him out to run marks, he jumped out of the box before I released him. I told him to kennel back up. He didn't. I told him sit and then kennel up and he stood his ground and growled. He did go back in, but I left him in there and didn't run marks with him because I was so disgusted.

He's just turning into a total snot. He was just over a year when he got here. I felt the behavior was improving. Now he's more responsive, but also growling more. Force fetch lessons would appear to an outsider that I'm dealing with a rabid animal... He will sit and hold after fetching. He was a little stiff today. But after he worked, he was relaxed. I do have yet another bitch coming into heat and he was marking (peeing, not retrieving!) after his lesson...

Trying to keep my patience and perserverance, but getting to a point where I may just get tired of it...

ps, my reason for mentioning his age was because he's coming up on the time that I feel is when males really start to act like males (18-24 mos) and if this behavior is indicative of his getting bolder and maturing, it's not a good sign.


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## hogdawg (Feb 5, 2008)

Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread, but do you get on to him when he growls at you. This type of behavior is unacceptable.


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## Karen McCullah (Feb 28, 2007)

I saw today firsthand what Kristie is experiencing, and let me just say SHE IS ONE BRAVE LADY!!!!!

I wouldn't take on that dog, and it was super smart to have someone there for backup just in case.

It is not a friendly growl, it is not a rumble, it is a GROWL, SNARL, SNAP, GROWL...it sounds ferocious, pretty bad. His "bark may be bigger than his bite" but I for one wouldn't want to chance it. 

Other than that, he seemed like a nice dog!


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Kristie...

Initially I had hoped that this dog was just trying to see what he could get away with..But as you have continued his training and written updates it is pretty evident that he is probably not going to get better.....or get over his 'attitude'.....

I think you've given this dog more than the benefit of the doubt, and even though I love chessies, I will never own one that shows aggressive behaviors on a consistant basis....Thankfully all the chessies I have had to date have had wonderful temperments....

It sounds to me like now would be a good time to call the owners and tell them you are not going to continue his training....Especially given the fact that you could not get him back in the box due to his poor attitude. From the description of that incident I feel like you are going to eventually have a bad situation with this dog. I sure would hope not, but sure seems that way....

Juli


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

sky_view said:


> Kristie...
> 
> *From the description of that incident I feel like you are going to eventually have a bad situation with this dog. I sure would hope not, but sure seems that way....*
> Juli


Ditto. (Kristie or somebody else.)

....Don


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

Kristie,
Have you reprimanded him for growling? I mean, other than putting him away? If not, surely it is past time for a "Come to Jesus" meeting. Wear protective gear if necessary and have someone else on hand, but do not let this dog get away with this, or the owner's only option will be euthanasia.


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## hogdawg (Feb 5, 2008)

After reading most of the thread, I believe that you are making the problem worse by allowing this type of behavior. It should have been stopped the second it started. I don't know if it's too late, but you must try to stop this behavior now before somebody gets hurt. Next time he growls at you, show him who's boss.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2008)

Larkin said:


> Kristie,
> Have you reprimanded him for growling? I mean, other than putting him away? If not, surely it is past time for a "Come to Jesus" meeting. Wear protective gear if necessary and have someone else on hand, but do not let this dog get away with this, or the owner's only option will be euthanasia.


I don't let the dog get away with any of it. But based on his behavior, I don't think a beat down is going to fix it. I think it will make it worse, as is sometimes the case with aggression... It's why I think FF has APPEARED to have made him more adversarial... But he does not "get away" with anything. At the same time, I'm not doing a beat down because I just don't feel like having to do that as part of training and don't want the risk involved for me or the dog -- I've been in my share of wrestling matches, mind you, but as the result of something like breaking up a fight. NOT as an approach to training, like "I'm going to go out an beat the crap out of this dog today"... Just don't feel like doing it.

If there's anyone that does, feel free to pm and I'll send you some business. Going to give it just a little bit longer and see if he levels back out. 

-K


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

Kristie, 
Even though hogdawg and I said essentially the same thing: show him who's boss, I didn't ever say you should beat him. I don't think you need to beat him to show him who's boss. A thundering voice performance "Bad Dog! Who do you think you are!" etc. is at least a place to start. I know there's controversy about the Alpha Roll, but if you make yourself larger than the dog and show him that you are displeased with his behavior, I'd be surprised if that escalated the situation. But you're with the dog and you know best... the rest of us are just guessing. How did his owners even housebreak him? Anyway, good luck.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Larkin,

First you state Kristie needs to have a 'Come To Jesus Meeting' (CTJM)....but then you say you never said to 'beat the dog'.....

Most people assume that when a CTJM has taken place, that the dog has been physically punished.

I have not seen the dog personally...but I agree with Kristie....using any type of physical punishment with this dog is only going to make him worse....as is evidenced by his growing dislike for FF.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Kristie, if Wisconsin were just a little closer to Georgia, I'd come over and give you a hand with him....I've dealt with that on several occasions before (with Chessies, Viszlas and a GWP), and it needs to be handled, but carefully. 

My concern is that he will be going back to owners who are not experienced and it is just a matter of time before something bad happens and the dog gets a high velocity inter-cranial lead injection.

Be careful, please!


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm doing everything I can and have his best interest at heart. It makes me even more annoyed because he can be so nice... I'm not giving up yet. But I have so much at stake that it's not worth getting hurt.... Regardless, it's never worth getting hurt! LOL Anyway, I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for the encouragement and advice. It's been so helpful.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

Larkin said:


> Kristie,
> Even though hogdawg and I said essentially the same thing: show him who's boss, I didn't ever say you should beat him. I don't think you need to beat him to show him who's boss. A thundering voice performance "Bad Dog! Who do you think you are!" etc. is at least a place to start. I know there's controversy about the Alpha Roll, but if you make yourself larger than the dog and show him that you are displeased with his behavior, I'd be surprised if that escalated the situation. But you're with the dog and you know best... the rest of us are just guessing. How did his owners even housebreak him? Anyway, good luck.


not sure if you read the other thread. You may want to go back to it and catch up to speed... I don't think a roll is appropriate in his case, although it will make ME feel better. 

He's very averse to any physical or mental aversion. Collar corrections elicit a growl. I've been very firm, but fair with him. I'm not acting afraid with him. I stand my ground. There have been a couple of times where I was concerned that I wasn't in a good physical position were he to try something and I'm trying to limit those to zero... 

The odd thing is that despite all the growling and any posturing, he's quite a good student. He's learning and doing what I ask, even when he vocalizes. So I have to give him some credit for that. Actually LOTS of credit for it. It's what gives me some hope. Because I figure if he was a COMPLETE a-hole, he'd be putting lots of effort into NOT doing what I'm asking and 99% of the time he does what I ask and then improves upon it when challenged... 

I'm so tired of thinking about it! I just want him to a be a good dog. 

-K


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Kristie,
You are a true professional, and I admire your dedication. Please be careful, I would not be able to tolerate that for one single second.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

cakaiser said:


> Kristie,
> You are a true professional, and I admire your dedication. Please be careful, I would not be able to tolerate that for one single second.


I'm just as stubborn as an ox and refuse to lose, sometimes to my detriment.  Usually it works out pretty good for me -- I'm hoping this is one of those cases. LOL


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

Kristie,

What is to become of this dog when you are done training it? Do you think the owners will be able to deal with this dog?

I think you are wise not to become more physical with this dog. From what I have read it does not sound like this dog is responding in a stable, submissive manner. You ability to read the dog has kept him at a simmer.

I do not believe all dogs are good. There are too many good dogs in need of good homes to keep bad dogs alive.

Tom


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## Larkin (Feb 4, 2005)

sky_view said:


> Larkin,
> 
> First you state Kristie needs to have a 'Come To Jesus Meeting' (CTJM)....but then you say you never said to 'beat the dog'.....
> 
> ...


Juli,
I've had plenty of "Come to Jesus meetings" with my dogs and my 14 y.o. son and none of them involved physical violence. I don't know what other people mean when they say it, but for me, it invokes an episode in which the dog (or kid) is reminded _in no uncertain terms_ who the boss is. 

For me, that has not required physical punishment. (Though I have rolled a few. Even the kid once when he put a key lime pie on my head, though I had to try really hard not to laugh.) 

I started with horses as a little girl and was a competitive rider in hunter jumper and eventing when I was a teen. I learned then how to use voice and attitude to dominate an animal much larger than one's self- because you'll always lose a physical contest with a horse, lol! 

Sorry that I used terminology that wasn't clear. I wondered if Kristie had addressed (with the dog) how truly unacceptable his behavior was. I sure didn't think she should beat him, though I imagine there are some old timers on this forum who might advocate that, and it might work for them. 

I'm sure Kristie will do the right thing.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Kristie its hard as a trainer to "give up" on a dog. I've been there. Your're a great trainer and I know you have the best for the dog at heart, but at some point you have to make a decision on if this dog is really cut out for this work. Every dog has a role in life, perhaps this is just not his role. My advice is find the right role for the dog....

/Paul


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I'll see him again Friday, so we can follow up then.
> 
> -K



Kristie, do you feel if the dog were staying with you, more opportunities for observation/general behaviour would help?

What did Mike Lardy note in one of his books. " A dog that attacks or threatens his trainer is frequently unsuitable for training........(You should seek prefessional help) to determine if the dog is inherently very aggressive or has simply learned this response as an effective escape behavior in prior training situations." 

What is the prior history of this dog?


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Make them "cut" him and see if that helps. If you were closer to SD I would help you out as well. I am pretty good with aggressive dogs. I like a challange!  You are a pro so you know what you are doing but my thoughts are see if they would neuter him and see if it helps. Who knows!! Good luck!


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

Aussie said:


> Kristie, do you feel if the dog were staying with you, more opportunities for observation/general behaviour would help?
> 
> (snip)
> What is the prior history of this dog?


Burt is staying here. Has been here since May/June.

History is growling/lunging esp when behind a fence or in a kennel. General intimidation of people approaching his house/front door type of thing. 

Apparently fine when out in public (i.e. at the beach) with both dogs and people.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

Update...

Owner came out today. I showed him one dog that's doing perfectly in FF -- the "ideal" dog. I then showed him his dad's boykin. She's doing GREAT, but moving slowly and that's just fine considering I thought she'd fall apart. So I gave him those to parts of the spectrum. And then got Burt out and Burt proceeded to do his Cujo thing...

Long story short, his owner took him off the restraints and did a FF lesson with him. His owner did SUPER!! Burt growled at him a couple of times, but John set him straight and continued with the lesson. John's timing and intuitiveness was really great. He travels a lot, but he's home til Tuesday and I asked if he would take Burt home through Monday and try to work with him a couple of times a day to see what he gets with him.

John said, and I agree, that we would hate for this to end his training.

So I'm hoping that John's working with him will get Burt desensitized to the process of FF. Normally I wouldn't send a dog home for their owner to FF because FF is just so "complex" and the timing is so critical. But John did really well with him and "got it". 

That's the newest news. I'll keep you posted.

-K


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

This is very good news. You know, I have seen Male Chesapeake's that bonded with one person and only that person could work them. Could it be he bonded with John (owner)? It sucks when they end up bonding with the pro and then go home to an owner they have no respect for. Seen that as well. Also have worked a male Chesapeake that had no respect for women. They could have the proverbial 2x4 in hand and it didn't matter. A man could give a quiet hear, sit and the same dog was at the ankle. It would be very cool to see this dog/owner team getting over this hurdle then you could advance the dog after yard.


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## hogdawg (Feb 5, 2008)

First let me say, I don't advocate a beat down, but with an aggressive dog, a quick pinning up against the back wall of my forcing table and a few firm choice words usually gets their attention. Quick question, Kristie. If you've had this dog since May/June, why are you waiting until now to force fetch? Just curious. 

I wish you and Cujo the best of luck. I hope he turns out to be a great working dog. Not that you would, but If you ever do need any help with a grrrrrrrrrrowling dog or anything else, give me a shout, I'm only a couple of hours down the interstate from you.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2008)

hogdawg said:


> First let me say, I don't advocate a beat down, but with an aggressive dog, a quick pinning up against the back wall of my forcing table and a few firm choice words usually gets their attention. Quick question, Kristie. If you've had this dog since May/June, why are you waiting until now to force fetch? Just curious.
> 
> I wish you and Cujo the best of luck. I hope he turns out to be a great working dog. Not that you would, but If you ever do need any help with a grrrrrrrrrrowling dog or anything else, give me a shout, I'm only a couple of hours down the interstate from you.


I wasn't waiting. I don't get in a rush like some trainers do. I usually FF around the 3 month mark (three months of increasingly difficult marks and I usually do go ahead and CC in this time) as long as things are going well. When that time came, I had three bitches in heat and he seemed to be getting a little wound up, so I wanted another few weeks, which brought us to where we are today.

I don't operate on a timetable and I force fetch later than most. I find I fly through the yard when I wait that period of time. The other four dogs are on their fifth day of force fetch -- one lesson per day -- and are going to the ground happily. I feel this is because of the relationship and groundwork we develop in those first few months.

I don't have a problem with forcing earlier, I have just found my end product is better by building marking first.

-K


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Kristie,

It sounds as if, like many Chessies, he is going to take the pressure from his owner and not so well from the trainer. 

This certainly doesn't mean he will bite someone or cause problems in the future as some have suggested. Having the owner alpha roll at this time would be the course I would take from what I have read here but, as we know, reading and being on the spot watching the dog is two different things. 

I have used the roll with good success on two of the more "boisterous" male Chessies I have FF'd. One was an attempted bite during FF and I about pulled his front leg off putting him on the ground and made certain the position of my hand was not comfortable on his neck. We spent a day and couple of two day follow ups (shick shadel recovery center joke, bad, I know) and he got the picture. 

The two males which are brought to mind in particular both had big egos at 14-16 months and had to be "put in their place" and shown who was boss. One has turned out to be an excellent family, hunting and show dog and unfortunately, the other dogs' owner did not follow through with discipline and continued to allow him to keep getting more and more out of control. Here, it sounds as if, the owner is capable and willing to continue working through his problems...

Like our own lives, having to struggle through tough spots will bring understanding and closeness which otherwise would have been missed and, in turn, forms even stronger bonds...Paul


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

Burt update.... 1/2/2010...

NOT good. He's here to board. I haven't seen him since I think mid-summer and he was ok here boarding for a week or so.

He's here now and he's awful. I hate it. He listens, but he is so dominant acting and looking. If ANYONE walks by his kennel, he looks like he's going to kill them. I sat in front of his gate and just watched him lunging at me wondering what it would be like if there wasn't a gate between us.

We even just walk out the front door and he will start growling -- if he's in the kennel in the parking area, which is his kennel for this stay.

"Funny" thing (and really none of this is funny, I'm really pissed) is that if he's having a barking, lunging episode in the kennel, he'll stop as soon as I reach for the clip/latch. I don't think it has anything to do with being intimidated by me, it's just some weird correlation.

Then when he comes out, he growls for a bit. But, to me, he's over the edge. Just the way he looks at me, even when he's listening. I don't like it. I'm not "scared" of him, but I'm not stupid either. So I put extra layers of clothes on -- like a scarf and gloves when I don't really need them.

He goes home tomorrow and I'm going to have the discussion about his not coming back...  I hate it, but he's too far gone for us to keep him here and I don't do severe aggression, which I feel is where we're at.

He crates on our screen porch at night (with insulation over him) and when I got him out the first time, he growled his way out the door (which was open) and I figured he'd head on down the ramp to potty. But instead he came back towards me growling and just stood there.

At this point, I don't think he'd bite me in general. But when he's acting like that, I absolutely feel like he'd bite if I made a move that he felt was out of line. I tell him to shut up and I just keep moving.

I'm just "managing" it right now and protecting myself from being bitten. I'm the only one handling him and I just want to get him through tomorrow.

I'm really upset to post this, but wanted to give you an update.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I would try contacting the dog whisperer, the story is just interesting enough to get the producers attention. Send them everything thats been posted so far and see what happens. Worth a shot before giving up.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

greg magee said:


> I would try contacting the dog whisperer, the story is just interesting enough to get the producers attention. Send them everything thats been posted so far and see what happens. Worth a shot before giving up.


They aren't giving up on him, but we're just not willing to keep him here anymore... I would love to see what Cesar would do. I just don't want to deal with it << I guess that's the best way to put it. I had him in what I think was a really good place when he left here. I don't know what his home life is like. So I can't particularly blame his owner. But I hate to see him this way -- it's just not something I'm going to spend my time on.

-K


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Kristie
Its tough for pet owners to maintain not only training but rules of being with dogs like this,
It takes an incredably dedicated, focused owner to and one who is willing to change a few of their habit patterns to keep their dog stable.

Caesar I'm sure can turn the dog around lickaty split ,,but the dog still has to go back home,,and when it does if the people have not changed stuff in their life the dog will revert back as it did with you,,when you sent the dog back.
Dogs learn super fast but people do not and that is because all a dog has to do is respond,, we the people must learn how to behave, People need to learn timing, motivation,and they need to learn how to apply it ,and they need to form a habit so they can be consistant without thinking about being consistant. There is alot for a novice to learn,,,

It would be nice to see on TV although I dont get the caesar show.

Pete


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear that Kristie. I remember from the earlier posts how much effort and thought you put into that dog. I know it must be tough to see it turn out this way. Remember though, you tried hard and gave that dog a shot when a lot of people wouldn't have.

Big love to you for trying, sorry it didn't work out.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

Kristie,

I was (and still am) one of the people in favor of putting this dog down before he seriously injures somebody. No dog can be watched 24/7.

Having said that I think the behavior you are seeing now is just a reflection of him having bad memories of you and the force fetching training at your kennel, and is not necessarily indicitive of his behavior in general.

I remember back in the 70's D.L. Walters had a Golden on his truck that if ever the airing dogs got into a squabble that Golden would go hunting him. D.L. said he had to be rescued several times after scrambling to the the top of his truck to get away from the dog.

Your making the right decision about not letting him ever come back.

...Don


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

DSemple said:


> Kristie,
> 
> (snip)Having said that I think the behavior you are seeing now is just a reflection of him having bad memories of you and the force fetching training at your kennel, and is not necessarily indicitive of his behavior in general.
> (snip)
> ...Don


He's been here to board several times since then and stayed training a couple of months after. I just can't put that together. And it's ALL people and always has been, both here and at home. Except that we had the behavior GONE for a long period of time before. I think he's just an ass, although I hate to call a dog names... I think he really is one.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Kristie I ahave a question about one of your dogs and your PM is full...


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

SueLab said:


> Kristie I ahave a question about one of your dogs and your PM is full...


I know!! Read my sig line!!  [email protected]

Apparently Chris' emails get through though. LOL the benefits of being the janitor...


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

got to go to a different computer...


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Kristie, at least you tried, and I think you've made the right choice in not wanting him to come back. I'd bet money his home life is where the issues come from....not socialized regularly or properly outside of his immediate family, and there's no follow-through when he goes home. Chessies take maintenance, some more than others. It is rarely ever *all* the dog's fault. Good on ya for trying!


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

SueLab said:


> got to go to a different computer...


Sorry about that... I just tend to get things through PM that I'd like to keep access to and I hate having to keep storing it all in files without an easy way to go back and find later...

-K


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Kristie,

I am just curious, when he is growling at you does he show teeth and/or do his hackles go up?


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

AmiableLabs said:


> Kristie,
> 
> I am just curious, when he is growling at you does he show teeth and/or do his hackles go up?


I would "like" to take a picture of it, but I am NOT exaggerating when I post this picture:










Pretty much exactly that mouth on a chessie body...

-K


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

AmiableLabs said:


> Kristie,
> 
> I am just curious, when he is growling at you does he show teeth and/or do his hackles go up?


...and it's not just growling. When outside the kennel it IS just growling. But from inside the kennel, it's growling and then if you are right at him and you move towards him or say something, you get all-out lunging, baring of teeth, full-on aggressive bark, just nasty.

That's why I said I just stood there and looked at him last night and wondered what would happen if the gate wasn't there. I can't imagine I wouldn't get attacked. Very strange standing there looking at a dog, "knowing" your safe with the gate there, but that you could be at the ER or dead if the gate wasn't there....

It's like being 2 seconds away from a nightmare. And that's the first time I felt like that with him. Just not something I want to deal with.

-K


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Ugh. My gosh.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

I can cure that rascal for ya. 

The medicine only costs $3.69 for 25 doses at Wallyworld and it's OTC as well.

Triple S regards

Bubba


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## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

Kristie,

I think your tougher than a nine year old SQUIRREL!!! Your brave!


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Thanks for the update, Kristie. I've wondered from time to time how it would all turn out. You have my sympathy. I took on a Chessie that was displaying lunging/snarling behavior at strangers. We had a succesful CAT protocol. Post treatment, the dog spent 10 days with me, and he seemed to be doing beautifully with me.

But, when he returned to his owners it all went downhill again. I finally got the call one day where the owner's said they didn't have time to work with the dog to continue with his recovery. The dog was returned to his breeder, whom he promptly bit.

I feel upset because I matched this dog and owner, and I made a poor choice. The dog was terrific when they got him, and even though they did make an effort to work with the dog, they really couldn't make the time committment required. In spite of my counseling, they made a breed choice based upon their experience with my Chessie. They thought they could have the equivalent of my Chessie right out of the box.

So, I'm upset at how the whole thing turned out, and my role in it all, and in that respect, I believe I have some understanding of how you might feel.

We can't fix'em all...

Chuck


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2010)

AmiableLabs said:


> Ugh. My gosh.


Will try to post a pic. I just had him out and all was well. I was about to bring him back in to crate him, but wanted to make sure he saw the water bucket before we came in. It's about 8 feet from the kennel... I took him and pointed to it and happily said "you wanna drink" and he started in. I just opened the door, told him to kennel, shut it and left... I guess he gets to stay out in the cold for the afternoon...


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

This sounds so familiar....

John tells stories about a dog he trained (before I came on the scene), let's call him Cappy. Cappy was always gentle with John, and under control, but he was a dominant dog in general (with a tendency to fight that ended his FT career after a single year of All-Age competition). In his run, he would threaten and charge everyone, John included.

Cappy's history was a little more complex as he had changed hands twice and appeared to have had heavy force on him with another trainer, but John felt the fundamental issue was permissiveness. 

Amy Dahl


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I can't remember--when this dog is at home, is it kenneled? Is it possible it's been taunted in a kennel, and it exacerbates his other "issues" and makes his behavior in a kennel impossible?

Some time ago, I was with my dogs in the back yard (I never leave them out alone, as my property abutts a much-traveled alley), and a kid was riding his bike and pounding on fences with sticks to taunt dogs. It maybe took only 5 seconds for him to pass my property--and it took about half a second for me to learn that one of my dogs will charge the fence if someone bangs on it. I wouldn't have known either of these things if I weren't out there constantly when they're out.


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## Pat Puwal (Dec 22, 2004)

It is possible that the owner and his dog could be helped by "Nothing In Life Is Free" training at home. The link is http://www.K9deb.com/nilif.htm if owner wants to check it out.


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## Sissi (Dec 27, 2007)

So sorry to read this. 
I was always wondering how everything went and I always though you were really brave to try this. 
I think your decision is right. I keep my fingers crossed for the dog though.


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## Guest (May 2, 2010)

UPDATE!!! Saw the growling chessie's grandfather at dinner last night...

First, this is a dog that went through a plate glass window/door to get to a painter he wanted to kill...

I was afraid to ask because I knew for sure that he would have been put down by now, so I sent Andrew over to ask him. I didn't want to hear the bad news (although I knew it was eminent).

Burt -- the rotten Chessie -- was neutered. He's doing a lot better. He's calmed down a lot, but still have a little ways to go. Not near as bad as he used to be. 

That's the quick summary. And good news overall. We didn't have a ton of time to talk... Thought some of you would be interested in the update.

- K


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