# Where are the new retriever enthusiasts?



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I know before I even type the first words of this... I heard this complaint back in the 70s. Oh, woe is us! The dog sports are dying out. No one is joining in any more. Blah, blah, blah. And I also know that the people who have the time and resources to go at it hard and heavy are older people who have raised their kids pretty much.

BUT... having so stipulated... what is being done in your area to (1) get more people to hunt birds (2) encourage new people to train their retrievers to retrieve birds and (3) get them more active in running their dogs in organized venues (HT or FT)? 

I would imagine this applies to things like agility and obedience. So I'd like to hear what others are doing to promote their sport.


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## Bill McKnight (Sep 11, 2014)

The Northwest Montana Retriever Club hosts training days and super singles events. We have a mix of participants from regular FT TYPES HT FOLKS and dog enthusiasts, mostly people already involved with dogs. Local ameture training groups have visitors that are encouraged to participate. The best venue was the Chessy specialty. We had folks from all over the country , shooters and hunters, that got to see what we do in a friendly family oriented environment. Lots of ways to encourage interest. Being friendly and welcoming is the key.

Ronan Bill


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I live in Montana, the urge to hunt and fish all game is in our genes. People come out of the woodwork approaching me to help train their gun dogs. That said, I've had a little luck getting some guys involved in hunt test, but nobody wants to commit the necessary time to train for field trials. These are younger guys who have a life beyond dogs, maybe later.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

I wish less people hunted birds around here, way too many idiots out pressuring birds making them harder to kill. And none of them have any desire to put in the work it takes to train a dog.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I have been amazed at how little many hunters expect or want from a retriever. (OK... I'm prejudiced based because of my son-in-law so take that with a grain of salt.) BUT... having said that, big time hunters are often the backbones of some of the HT-oriented retriever clubs.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Our NAHRA club, MSGDA, has 2 picnic tests every spring and also has (in the past) had training classes that last 5 months through the winter. Both have been great in bringing new people into 'the game'. 

MSGDA also keeps entry costs fairly low - If you are an MSGDA member it is $40 for started or hunter, $50 for intermediate, and $60 for senior. This includes at least one live flyer, which in AK is $30 a bird.

NAHRA has a pretty new membership program which offers a free one year NAHRA membership to new folks. 

Getting and keeping people involved in the upper levels is more challenging. Up here (AK) a vast majority of dogs that run AKC master tests or NAHRA senior tests are pro trained and often times pro handled (15 of 21 master entries were pro trained in one recent test and 5 of 6 NAHRA senior dogs were pro trained - at some point in their life). That takes money that a lot of young people do not have. And if they don't have the funds for pro training, the commitment, knowledge, personal dedication, resources, and land/water access it takes to train an upper level dog can be more than they want to deal with. It is easier and cheaper to do a little basic training and 'just take the dog hunting'.

I agree with Bill though - being kind and welcoming to new folks is REALLY important.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

$100 entrance fees for a Master's test now is no way to bring in new blood, JMHO. Hunting much more economical. Perhaps more "fun" trial/HT within the clubs, something an average guy with a family maybe able to do.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

I had a litter of pups a few years ago from our shed dogs. I kept one pup and trained with a pro and other mentors. I now train with FOM since I moved. At my old school and new school I'm the only person who is into it (beside a neighbor kid and his meat lab). I'm the youngest at every hunt-test I've been to. Kids have decreased at the local lake youth duck hunt (guides are just as bad with 8/15 not returning). Kids arnt interested in hunting or dogs becues they won't get there heads out of the video games (there fun but a shotgun and a dog is preferable to me). I know of 20 or so kids out of 1400 at our highschool that hunt. All of there dads hunt ( meaning no new blood ). The adults who are aging out of the sport is more than that which are coming in. I will probebly guide a youth hunt next year becues I'm the only guy who's willing and able. It's a dying sport and the leftists are making it worse. My AG teacher gave bow hunters a bad rep. I hope we can fix this decrease becues soon our tradition will be a thing of the past becues NHARA is dead in Co, HRC and AKC are not atracting kids. HRC Had a youth statistic somewhere. Sorry bout the rant but my career as a pro will die before I make it.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Well, I think I wrote here about my grandson whose get-to-know-you-first-week-of-school project included a picture of him shooting skeet with his grandfather and how his teacher made him paste over the picture with something else. Boykin... we all feel your pain with public school. 

I think there will be a degree of pendulum swinging in years to come. Just a feeling. We don't need every kid out there hunting. We just need a few good ones.


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## Phil_MI (Nov 22, 2014)

The boy on the left is a good friend of my sleepy eyed son to his right. It was my son's friend first time waterfowl hunting. Over the past 5 years, we have taken multiple kids on their first hunts, and many after. I run the boat, call, and handle the dog...Many of the members of our HRC club do the same. There is nothing like a huge grin on a kid's face when they watch a well trained dog bring back a bird they shot.


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## Southern_Point (Feb 18, 2015)

I am 26 and pretty much all I think about is training retrievers but it all started with the youth duck hunts I went in when I was younger. ThAt was the first time I had seen a good dog work and I was hooked! There is not any ppl my age around here that are into training though just 2 pro's that are a good bit older.


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> $100 entrance fees for a Master's test now is no way to bring in new blood, JMHO. Hunting much more economical. Perhaps more "fun" trial/HT within the clubs, something an average guy with a family maybe able to do.


I think the 80-90 dollar junior tests are probably a bigger barrier since most beginners don't start at master. I see your point though.


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## fetchitupup (Jun 23, 2008)

I recently mentored a college age young man whose dad is an associate of mine. The dad does not hunt nor is any other member of the family except this young man who had hunted some with his grandfather. Dad asked me if I still was duck hunting and said sure I would take the young man. Well, all it took was 2 hunts and he was hooked. I helped him get a small boat so he could hunt with his buddies some and he is talking about getting and training a dog in the future. Young people are out there and they need a little coaching and help sometimes. As 1tulip said we don't need them all we just want the good ones. He is also the only member of the family that eats meat, which I am sure makes for interesting conversation around dinner time when he is fixing duck.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I've taken different kids on the youth hunt every year since my 2 got to old to qualify. A lot of fun and some extra work for the dogs.


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## yemison (Jul 7, 2015)

I believe I’m the youngest member of our training club (28) and was relatively late to start hunting (22). 

An older coworker went out of his way to take me under his wing to show me the ropes. Got me into his deer gang and hunt club, let me borrow gear and introduced me to landowners. He also has a couple labs that I got to hunt over and inspired to get my own. 

I feel even more fortunate that we have a great local retriever training club that I was able to hook up with. Many of the members are active on here, and were very welcoming and helpful as I started out, coming to my house to help with FF or taking time out of their own training to come supervise pile work, pattern blinds etc. It was their passion and dedication to the sport, and their awesome dogs, that has kept me coming back for the last 15 months. Someone was out training every night and would always extend an invitation to me. Now it seems like I see these guys more than my friends and family.

Club members encouraged me to compete in HT and FT’s but only when we were ready, and we had a great summer earning our JH and went 2 for 2 in junior trials (derby) with an RCM and 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]. I think I also really lucked out because some clubs around here put on extra trials with a focus on the minor stakes, which will hopefully continue in the future. It’s a lot less intimidating for newbies to compete when only one or two pros show up and there isn’t an Open being held the same weekend. 

A lot of people my age have young families or more rigid work schedules, and it can be tough prioritizing dog training or hunting. I think our club does a lot to try and encourage the new guys to come out, we text them our training schedules and do our best to accommodate them but it can be challenging. Club members have also done promo displays at our local Bass Pro and sportsman shows, and our trial gets a write up in the paper every couple years.


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

Zach Fisher said:


> I think the 80-90 dollar junior tests are probably a bigger barrier since most beginners don't start at master. I see your point though.


Plus the travel expenses My first HT dog, I was mid20's no wife kid we ran from OK, MO, AR, IL, WS, TN, NE chasing ribbons and the grand. My next dog im in 30's, wife, kid wont be able to travel all that much! Say a guy lives in Kansas City and wants to title a dog, he's going to have 1 local test, then have to drive 3-5 times a year 2.5 hours + in any direction, sometimes multiple weekends in a row.. That add's up fast!


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## houstonLBD (Sep 24, 2014)

I was 26 when I got my Boykin Spaniel. I never hunted before or even held a shotgun before, and the only dog I had before was my parents Miniature Schnauzer. I'm now 30 and we now have our HRCH, run in the annual Boykin Spaniel National Field Trial every year (placing 3rd in Open this year), ran in the Spring Grand earlier this year making it to the 2nd series, and have 2 AKC Master passes. Will hope to get her Master title this Spring. I learned by researching this forum, following a retriever program, and occasionally training with the clubs. I work a 10 hr job 4-5 days a week, and live in one of the most populated cities in the country, making training grounds hard to find, and even harder to get to because of the traffic. We have made it work, and love doing it!


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## LTanner (Feb 5, 2014)

I started hunting in my 20's - didn't have any family that did it, but met a FT guy who watched the lab puppy I had bought, he told me she had ability, and it got me hooked on dog games. I also remember stopping when I was probably 8 or 10, with my mom on a roadside in WI and saw a group probably training handling with their Labs. I thought it was the coolest thing that someone could work with a dog in that way, and am so proud that I have been able to train my dogs to do the same thing.

I think time and location are big factors. Where I live now in north GA isn't a mecca for hunting and the nearest AKC trials are 2+ hours away. There are maybe 4-5 trials I could go to as work ties me from doing too much traveling. They are all in the Fall, and some of them are back to back weekends. I had someone tell me the JH tests are also made so hard in the area, that I would be better off just training to Senior and running those, because the JH tests were made very complicated. I haven't been to a trial down here, but the JH I ran in WI were VERY fun and a good basic test, which I think would be very encouraging for someone new to the trials. I haven't tried to find a training group since moving here, but I also have a 20 month old son, and I know my availability would be very inconsistent. I am a little discouraged about finding the time to get titles for my dogs, but I know my son will be raised hunting and training. I wonder if there are a lot of others in the same boat?

I think it would help to have more clubs/groups training and doing demonstrations. Get people excited about what theses dogs can do. I really enjoy just the training portion of "hunting" my labs and often recommend a lot of the books and videos to everyone I know with retrievers, because even if they aren't hunting, playing the retriever games is a blast. I considered getting with some of the dog training places and starting a weekly "retriever" class like they have agility, obedience etc. I think making it more mainstream would get more involved.

And I am not trying to start controversy, but I wish trials used dummies instead of birds. It breaks my heart to watch all those live fliers shot. I know it's super exciting for the dogs and much more a simulation of a real hunt, but it rubs me the wrong way. I shoot animals to feed my family, not for the sake of shooting, and in order to get a title a lot of birds have to die. I think that pushes some people away from the sport too. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Yemison is part of our club, The Niagara Peninsula Retriever Training Club. We have existed since our first trial held in 1954.
Here are the particulars of that trial.
*1954 *

*1[SUP]st[/SUP] trial , Allanburg Ont.*

*Officers*​President………………...F. Sommers
Vice- President………….W.H. Copeland
2[SUP]nd[/SUP] V.P…………………..Ruth Copeland
Secretary………………..Lloyd Jarvis
*Field Trial Committee*

Chairman……………….George De Young
Marshall………………...Cliff Hunt
Asst. Marshall…………..Nick Marucci
Secretary………………..Corrine Hunt
*-Judges*- 

Mr.& Mrs. Harley A. Butler

Delafield, Wisconsin ​*Open All age Winners*

23 starters​1[SUP]st[/SUP]- Fld.Ch. Black Boy X1- Lab – Lewis Greenleaf(Ray Staudinger)
2[SUP]nd[/SUP]-Cindy’s Pride of Garfield -Lab - Clifford W. Brokaw Jr. (Ray Staudinger)
3[SUP]rd[/SUP]How-Hi-Waaf -Lab - Orrin Weber Jr. 
4[SUP]th[/SUP]- Mandy of Lonely Acres -Lab- Roland H. Simmons 
CM-FTCH Sommers Rysty Boy –Lab- Frank Sommers 
CM- CH. Killarney Sheba –Lab- W.H.Sweeney
CM- Candy of Riverdale –Lab- James Currie
CM- Hastings Lamplighter-Lab- Jessie Mann (Ray Staudinger)
CM- Little Joe of Tigathoe Gold. Mrs. George Flynn

Our club was referred to as a "secret society" in the past.
Now with social media being what it is, we are out there.
*A little self promotion can go a long way towards exposure, if that is what you want.
*
The up side.......New blood can find you.
The down side.....New blood can find you. 
Our gang is happy to help people help themselves.
Like other sports, some will excel and others, you hope, will find enough success to keep themselves satisfied.
The thing about amateur groups is, there is only so much time, and mentors need to make sure their own training 
doesn't take a back seat to the people they want to help. Mentors also do better by having the help of new blood.
NPRTC has a long tradition of amateur success. I hope guys like Yemison stick around, self educate, and carry the torch.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Our HT club in Houston would participate in a variety area events. We'd work shifts, bring dogs and do demo's at the Annual Hunting and Fishing Expo in the Astrohall, Bass Pro Shop's Fall kickoff, Orvis' events, etc. We recruited a lot of new members by handing out membership forms and fliers (the paper kind), encouraging them to join our club training sessions, mock HT's, etc. 

At a minimum, I'd like to think we inspired people to train their dogs.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

What exactly is dieing out? I was at a HT this weekend seemed to be a bunch of trucks, and a mixing of age levels, including junior handlers running dogs. Met a bunch of new handlers, gunners, with first dog, first ribbons, first titles. This is with hunting season starting next weekend. Now the senior stake was a bit smaller but it was also a Specialty and there's a lot of different breeds in the area. Master test are still closing early (seeing more Amatuers handling their own dogs because of the National AM) and junior owner participation even with exorbitant prices for tests seem to be above average for the fall. Hunt test participation seems to be doing fine, if not growing.

Last test I judged in spring had 28-30 senior dogs, and 45-50 juniors; I have never seen one that big, makes a lower stake judge's head hurt, when they have to remember how to count that high .


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Out here where we have heavy population and a lot of competition for hunting grounds, other than kids coming up in hunting families, there's not much being done at all with hunting, so therefore same follows with retrievers. Meanwhile my guess is agility is up because it caters to cookie pushers. I don't know that for sure though.


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## hillsidegoldens (Mar 28, 2009)

I have run my dogs for 2 different groups youth pheasant hunts. I have done and will be doing dog demonstrations. Working with Keystone Wild Outdoors tv show a s pro staff member my fosus is bird hunting and dog training.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

LTanner said:


> And I am not trying to start controversy, but I wish trials used dummies instead of birds. It breaks my heart to watch all those live fliers shot. I know it's super exciting for the dogs and much more a simulation of a real hunt,* but it rubs me the wrong way.* I shoot animals to feed my family, not for the sake of shooting, and *in order to get a title a lot of birds have to die.* I think that pushes some people away from the sport too.
> Just my 2 cents.


+1 

but then we would just be proving who are the best dogs on dummies




Don


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Vis. killing the live fliers: They are not thrown in the trash after everyone goes home. They are put in freezers and are used for many, many, many months to train dogs. (I don't want to tell you how old some of our birds are!!!) AND (this is an important thing to remember if you have a difficult time with birds dying) these dogs go hunting with their owners and retrieve birds, some of them cripples who would otherwise limp off into the weeds and die slowly. The birds hunters shoot are eaten.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

The demo's, training days and tests all help bring new people into the sport. What keeps them playing is introduction and acceptance in a local training group. There are very few individuals that are able to learn these games by themselves. To advance a dog they will need help. So invite these guys to spend an afternoon training.


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## LTanner (Feb 5, 2014)

1tulip said:


> Vis. killing the live fliers: They are not thrown in the trash after everyone goes home. They are put in freezers and are used for many, many, many months to train dogs. (I don't want to tell you how old some of our birds are!!!) AND (this is an important thing to remember if you have a difficult time with birds dying) these dogs go hunting with their owners and retrieve birds, some of them cripples who would otherwise limp off into the weeds and die slowly. The birds hunters shoot are eaten.


I know they are used for training, and quite frankly when working trials I much preferred slinging the fresh shot fliers then the god-knows-how-long dead stinky defrosted ducks.  I just think maybe juniors and seniors could be run with dokkens/bumpers and maybe some kind of short "will they pick up and carry a bird" test rather then the live birds being shot. It would drop the cost of the lower stakes a bit too I would think. Going for a title isn't something that makes a dog a good hunting retriever...to me they are showing the trainability and desire of the dogs to work with a handler. 

If we are looking for retriever enthusiasts, it's a change that may help make our sport more mainstream. True hunters can train with shot fliers and reuse ducks as much as they need to. (In fact I am looking for some ducks/shot fliers at the moment, as I want to get my dogs picking birds up. lol.) It's the shooting of hundreds of birds in two days for a contest, not training retrievers I see as not quite right.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Lisa,
Use of fake ducks in trials/tests is a subject that has been brought back to life here (RTF) on many occasions.  

I appreciate the fact that people understand, acknowledge, and respect that these animals die for 'our use' - Not unlike all the other billions of animals that die for the sake of human consumption (eating or otherwise). The chickens in a butcher facility surely do not 'feel' any better than a flyer duck does at a test?

NAHRA tried going the 'rubber duck' route many years ago. The organization nearly died as a result. 

Live birds are essential in the testing and trialing of 'hunting' retrievers.


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## lorneparker1 (Mar 22, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Lisa,
> Use of fake ducks in trials/tests is a subject that has been brought back to life here (RTF) on many occasions.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that people understand, acknowledge, and respect that these animals die for 'our use' - Not unlike all the other billions of animals that die for the sake of human consumption (eating or otherwise). The chickens in a butcher facility surely do not 'feel' any better than a flyer duck does at a test?
> ...


Well I wouldn't say live birds are essential. You cant shoot live flyers at all in Canada for any level of tests. Wish we could though!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I just think maybe juniors and seniors could be run with dokkens/bumpers and maybe some kind of short "will they pick up and carry a bird" test rather then the live birds being shot. It would drop the cost of the lower stakes a bit too I would think. Going for a title isn't something that makes a dog a good hunting retriever...to me they are showing the trainability and desire of the dogs to work with a handler.


This would be so wrong. The young dogs should have them as well as the older dogs, even more so. Every non birdy Lab would be touted for their titles. I KNOW CANADA IS FORCED TO DO IT BUT AS LONG AS WE HAVE A CHOICE, we should use birds because that's what the Labs and other retrievers were bred to do is retrieve game. I know I would refuse to compete for dummies.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Another thing to mention the birds are hatched and grown for this purpose, they support an industry, people lifestyles etc. If they weren't shot at tests-trials they would never be born, never live at all. In addition Pen-raised birds would die if they were not cared for or ever released. If there was no industry, an individual trainer would be hard pressed to find birds to train hunting dogs with. It's the clubs-event that need enough birds, that make it worthwhile for people to raise them. Without the clubs there wouldn't be enough demand, to justify raising them.

Honestly the younger dogs are those that need the flyers, a big dogs already knows to pick a live bird up; a young dog doesn't, a older dog has already gone hunting a younger dogs is most likely first being tested in a controlled environment to ensure he's ready to go hunting and retrieve real game. These dogs are conservation tools, these tests are used to evaluate both individual dogs and hunting stock, so that wild birds are not lost. If the test and trial dogs, which are the majority of breeding stock that hunters will purchase and use; are not proven to be able to retrieve freshly shot game, it defeats the point. Every hunted bird is a live flyer after all. I'm glad we have these birds to test dogs, it would be more of a waste to have to save wild game birds for dog training when such birds should be eaten. Hunted game and wild birds, are harvested for food, that's why we have pen-raised ones that are brought up for the distinct purpose. Plastic is not feathers, dead birds are not the same as freshly shot ones.

Hunt test = testing hunting dogs; besides the live flyers are more of a draw than anything else, as a lot of people do not have the ability to shoot nor test their own dogs on very many flyers, before they take them out hunting. Providing flyers is a skill oriented task that is easier for an event or club to provide, as it usually requires 2-3 people (trained thrower and gunners) to setup, which is hard for an individual to do by themselves unless they are training with a group (that utilizes flyers) or a pro.


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## NCShooter (Dec 6, 2012)

I would like to also show appreciation for the pros out there. I was introduced to the dog world while on a duck hunt in ND. My buddy had a nice senior level hunting fool of a dog. 
He took me to visit his pro after that trip, I started visiting regularly and the rest as they say is history. All I wanted was a nice family dog and hoped that he would turn into a nice hunting dog that would handle. I never planned to play the game at all. What I got was a super family dog that just happens to be HRCH and MH, and a great hunting dog as well. With the encouragement and help of two pros that I consider great friends, it has been a great experience. 
Just my experience,
NCShooter


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

I'm not sure it's really dying... In my area, JRs are usually at around 30, SRs about the same and MH more than double that amount. As far as other sports, I see the same people over and over and they just get more dogs! Obedience matches fill fast and some of our obedience trials fill before they are even advertised, it seems. Again, many of the same people. Same with classes and lessons with the most sought after trainers, they are full. 

I see the more progressive trainers are bringing in a lot of younger people. I took an online field training foundations class to supplement what I was already doing and many of those people got their JHs this year, doing online only, and were brand new at field work and not hunters. Most were under 40.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I never realized how much you can do while training alone. And there are so many resources you can find... (some are advertised on RTF). Seriously, it is amazing.

The one thing that's hard to do without a group is to have someone critique your handling behavior. (Even if you could get someone to video you, that would only tell part of the story. You are standing on the line and after you kick the dog off, the decisions you make in handling are very dynamic, difficult to video.) 

It helps to be in a group, which, as pointed out earlier, can be tough for the newbie to find.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I would refuse to compete for dummies.


That would be the end of field trials as we know them, it will probably happen eventually but hopefully not in our lifetime.


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

1tulip said:


> The one thing that's hard to do without a group is to have someone critique your handling behavior. (Even if you could get someone to video you, that would only tell part of the story. You are standing on the line and after you kick the dog off, the decisions you make in handling are very dynamic, difficult to video.)


There are people out there who are extremely adept at providing feedback via video and handlers who learn exclusively how to train their dogs via video (they read too, and have discussions, but the trainer only sees videos). There are people in other countries who have no access to trainers who are 100% via video and I know people personally who do all of their lessons via video with their favorite professionals and do very well. You live in Oregon but want to train with someone in Chicago? It is now totally doable. I don't think it is as common among field trainers, but getting feedback on handling is easy and they can rewind, dissect, compare, slow down, etc. video so they have the ability to be very precise in their feedback.


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Labradorks said:


> There are people out there who are extremely adept at providing feedback via video and handlers who learn exclusively how to train their dogs via video (they read too, and have discussions, but the trainer only sees videos). There are people in other countries who have no access to trainers who are 100% via video and I know people personally who do all of their lessons via video with their favorite professionals and do very well. You live in Oregon but want to train with someone in Chicago? It is now totally doable. I don't think it is as common among field trainers, but getting feedback on handling is easy and they can rewind, dissect, compare, slow down, etc. video so they have the ability to be very precise in their feedback.


Define "very well".


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

Migillicutty said:


> Define "very well".


I know people who are at the Utility level in obedience and working on their UDX and OTCH having been trained via video. Some are on their first Utility dog. At that level, they are not brand new to dog sports (typically) but new to the higher levels. You have to keep in mind that the trainers who train via video are very good and well-known otherwise they would not be able to market their services around the world. These trainers are typically seminar-level trainers and at this time, mostly progressive trainers though some traditional trainers are starting to train online as well. 

As far as field work goes, I've only seen foundations work being taught online -- both beginner and intermediate. But, I will say that the help I received via video lessons cleaned up our performances because she was able to pick at my handling second by second. My in person trainer is great, but he is not quite as tuned into my handling and how it affects my dog, though he is better at helping me with technical marks and stuff like that (he also has live ducks and a gun as well as 20 acres, so there's that...). They literally take note of the video by time (i.e., "At :21 do you see how you are bending toward the dog to accept the bird and how at :23 the dog slows as you bend over him and create pressure and then at :24 ... etc."). I think it allows the handler to literally see exactly what they are doing. Sometimes someone tells you you are doing something and you have no clue so how will you change it?


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Doubtless... a video of me leaving the holding blind, sitting the dog down, watching the birds go down, (reheeling my dog...*ahem*), putting my hand down, or not, and kicking her off... someone could critique me a lot on body posture, timing and so forth. I probably make lots of spastic moves.

It's not as good as having a group. And it still requires that you have access to land and water. But it probably does overcome some of the limitations a newbie would encounter.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Labradorks said:


> I know people who are at the Utility level in obedience and working on their UDX and OTCH having been trained via video. Some are on their first Utility dog. At that level, they are not brand new to dog sports (typically) but new to the higher levels. You have to keep in mind that the trainers who train via video are very good and well-known otherwise they would not be able to market their services around the world. These trainers are typically seminar-level trainers and at this time, mostly progressive trainers though some traditional trainers are starting to train online as well.
> 
> As far as field work goes, I've only seen foundations work being taught online -- both beginner and intermediate. But, I will say that the help I received via video lessons cleaned up our performances because she was able to pick at my handling second by second. My in person trainer is great, but he is not quite as tuned into my handling and how it affects my dog, though he is better at helping me with technical marks and stuff like that (he also has live ducks and a gun as well as 20 acres, so there's that...). They literally take note of the video by time (i.e., "At :21 do you see how you are bending toward the dog to accept the bird and how at :23 the dog slows as you bend over him and create pressure and then at :24 ... etc."). I think it allows the handler to literally see exactly what they are doing. Sometimes someone tells you you are doing something and you have no clue so how will you change it?


What is a "progressive" vs a "traditional" trainer and what venue(s)?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Labradork - Foundation work - meaning fetch, heel, sit, here... all the basics? 

I'd love to see you R+ train a high strung, self employed American FT lab to a MH or QAA level.  Maybe 1Tulip can send you hers for a few days. LOL

I am all for positive and fair training - don't get me wrong - and I believe a vast majority of JH and maybe SH level dogs could get there with R+ training in the RIGHT trainer's hands....But there are dogs that it simply will NOT work with - not to advanced level training, any way. Not, don't pick up that poison bird, 5 feet from the line and then angle into the water and swim on the shoreline for 20 yds, then get on a point, then get back in the water for 50 more yds, exit land, enter cattails, and run 30 more yards to the bird. You can't do that type of training through R+ methods. MHO.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> They literally take note of the video by time (i.e., "At :21 do you see how you are bending toward the dog to accept the bird and how at :23* the dog slows as you bend over him and create pressure *and then at :24 ... etc."). I think it allows the handler to literally see exactly what they are doing. Sometimes someone tells you you are doing something and you have no clue so how will you change it?


You are creating pressure by bending down to accept the bird? This is what they are telling you? Are these actual people who are accomplished in the field? What are your accomplishments in the field, especially after these informative videos?



> Sometimes someone tells you you are doing something and you have no clue so how will you change it?


Spend time with a pro and they will tell you what to do


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Just so everyone knows... I've met Labradork's dog and she has met mine (on a day when Rocket Dog was at her enthusiastic best!) We've had some robust discussions and I'm pretty sure she knows why her methods would not be the first choice for training my dog. Furthermore, folks who want to use those methods seek out breedings where they would be most effective, right?

When it comes to getting more people in the sport, I would be thrilled if there was a growing nucleus of folks who came at it from a different angle, as long as on game day, we're all playing by the same rules. 

The retriever trainers on the other side of the pond do all their training with methods closer to those of Labradorks. But their game is different than ours, and their breedings reflect the qualities they are looking for. If we give the R+ folks some time and let them breed a few generations of labs that can do it that way... hey, it would widen the appeal of the sport. 

If you stick around long enough, you'll see things you woulda never believed possible. Honest, I saw a Curly Coat do some decent Master work. So I'm never going to say never.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

1tulip said:


> Just so everyone knows... I've met Labradork's dog and she has met mine (on a day when Rocket Dog was at her enthusiastic best!) We've had some robust discussions and I'm pretty sure she knows why her methods would not be the first choice for training my dog. Furthermore, folks who want to use those methods seek out breedings where they would be most effective, right?
> 
> When it comes to getting more people in the sport, I would be thrilled if there was a growing nucleus of folks who came at it from a different angle, as long as on game day, we're all playing by the same rules.
> 
> ...


I don't think the retriever trainers on the other side of the pond train only R+ methods. Polmaise and Kennel Maiden can probably chime in. I know in some areas E collars are illegal - others they are not. Regardless - using the word NO means you are not an R+ trainer. 

I am totally cool with people that want to use only R+ methods of training with their dogs. I don't see it as a means to training an all age dog. I think it is totally plausible that we (Americans) could be forced to discontinue using ecollars at some point in the future. Their use in the UK and Europe is slowly fading due to being made illegal and poorly looked upon as unfair. That mentality certainly is gaining a foot hold in certain parts/segments of our country


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

Tobias said:


> Labradork - Foundation work - meaning fetch, heel, sit, here... all the basics?
> 
> I'd love to see you R+ train a high strung, self employed American FT lab to a MH or QAA level.  Maybe 1Tulip can send you hers for a few days. LOL
> 
> I am all for positive and fair training - don't get me wrong - and I believe a vast majority of JH and maybe SH level dogs could get there with R+ training in the RIGHT trainer's hands....But there are dogs that it simply will NOT work with - not to advanced level training, any way. Not, don't pick up that poison bird, 5 feet from the line and then angle into the water and swim on the shoreline for 20 yds, then get on a point, then get back in the water for 50 more yds, exit land, enter cattails, and run 30 more yards to the bird. You can't do that type of training through R+ methods. MHO.


Yes, foundation work like you described, including others, like hold, etc. Most of the people I know who I have taken the online classes with are obedience people first and field work is at the lower levels (JH, SH, maybe MH). Janice Gunn type Labs (several closely related to her dogs) from breeders like Rhumbline (very popular dogs for obedience, hunt tests, agility) if that tells you anything. 

I'm not sure where I said that any dog at any level can do field trials using a certain type of training. I was simply pointing out that there are younger and/or new people getting into the sport and many are hanging out with progressive trainers using online learning.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Labradorks said:


> Yes, foundation work like you described, including others, like hold, etc. Most of the people I know who I have taken the online classes with are obedience people first and field work is at the lower levels (JH, SH, maybe MH). Janice Gunn type Labs (several closely related to her dogs) from breeders like Rhumbline (very popular dogs for obedience, hunt tests, agility) if that tells you anything.
> 
> I'm not sure where I said that any dog at any level can do field trials using a certain type of training. I was simply pointing out that there are younger and/or new people getting into the sport and many are hanging out with progressive trainers using online learning.


Please explain what a progressive trainer is?


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

ErinsEdge said:


> You are creating pressure by bending down to accept the bird? This is what they are telling you? Are these actual people who are accomplished in the field? What are your accomplishments in the field, especially after these informative videos?
> 
> Spend time with a pro and they will tell you what to do


I did not copy and paste anything. But, yes, my handler-sensitive dog was dumping birds when I bent over him. I started standing up straight and not bending over him and it completely stopped. It's been about eights months or more since a bird has touched the ground. I do go to a pro (he is traditional) and take lessons and I work with a group as well, who are also traditional, one is a judge. As far as they are all concerned, our methods work for us just fine and no one sees a reason to change them. Is my dog a FT dog? No. Actually, he is conformation bred without anything more than a WC in his entire pedigree. I only have a JH on my dog so far and have been doing this for two years, maybe one weekend per month. I live in the city and it's not my priority. We do obedience and agility as well. Cleaning up my handling with the help from the online trainer did improve our runs quite a bit. We were passing, but it wasn't as clean as I'd like. My personal goal is straight tens -- perfect runs -- not a just a pass and after cleaning things up, we did achieve close to perfect in three out of four runs, which made me pretty happy.


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> Please explain what a progressive trainer is?


Non-traditional. R+. Force-free.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Labradorks said:


> Non-traditional. R+. Force-free.


Why is it called progressive?


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

1tulip said:


> Just so everyone knows... I've met Labradork's dog and she has met mine (on a day when Rocket Dog was at her enthusiastic best!) We've had some robust discussions and I'm pretty sure she knows why her methods would not be the first choice for training my dog. Furthermore, folks who want to use those methods seek out breedings where they would be most effective, right?
> 
> When it comes to getting more people in the sport, I would be thrilled if there was a growing nucleus of folks who came at it from a different angle, as long as on game day, we're all playing by the same rules.
> 
> ...


Nor would the methods you use on your dog work on my soft, sensitive, perfectionist dog. I told you his litter-mate brother went to a local pro? He nearly washed out after two weeks, so they backed off and managed to get him through. He went home and now he cannot run without the e-collar. He won't do anything. Just freezes. Like my dog, he is so afraid to be wrong, he requires the feedback as to not make mistakes. It takes a lot of work and patience to get past this place and to let the dog know that right or wrong, it's OK. Just do SOMETHING, ANYTHING. These dogs want to be right and do the right thing, so I know that if my dog messes up, it's a mistake and I need to work on it more. That way of thinking has never steered me wrong with _this dog_. As you know, and I know as well, they are all different. They require different things. And, that's OK. It's important that we recognize this in our dogs and use the methods that work best with them. I am not attacking traditional trainers.


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

Rainmaker said:


> Why is it called progressive?


Methods are typically newer. R+ is not just clickers (in fact, a lot of R+ people don't use clickers) and treats.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

So you're saying a trainer will review your video and give advice?
Could you please share name of this trainer? PM if you want.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> So you're saying a trainer will review your video and give advice?
> Could you please share name of this trainer? PM if you want.


A very talented one will and does even consulting professional trainer(s).


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## Mossy Dell (Sep 22, 2016)

Maybe this is a good place to introduce myself, since I am new to the forum and thinking of getting back into retrievers. My wife and I are renovating a house for our retirement in SW Virginia, on 7 acres at Riner, beside our daughter and son in law and grandkid. I'm taking early retirement and moving to Riner permanently in June 2017. Till then, it's back and forth.

I wonder if there is anyone here from SW VA or if there's a retriever club in SW Virginia? I am no longer young but still a novice, having trained a Lab when I was in my 20s down in Florida. Field trialed her a bit, hunted over her—pheasants in Michigan and grouse in Indiana—and she helped raise my kids. Am a little concerned about getting into anything too heavily too fast, but at the same time find myself yearning to get a Lab puppy and train it again.

I am a teacher and farmed part-time for years, lots of sheep and chickens. My hunting dog became a Jack Russell terrier, and I raised Great Pyrenees to live with the sheep flock and protect it from coyotes. Also I played around a bit with English shepherds and Border collies. I wrote a book about it, Shepherd: A Memoir.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Welcome to the forum!

Check out the DVD's that are advertised at the top of the page. Do a bit of research on sires and dams and characteristics of the prominent "lines" of labs (always a topic that will produce an endless thread with three opinions for everyone who posts)

Since you last got a lab there have been additional hereditary conditions that have identified and for which clearances have been developed.

You field trialed your dog... which you can still do, and now we have Hunt Tests which can also be a hoot. 

So again... welcome aboard!


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## Mossy Dell (Sep 22, 2016)

1tulip said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Check out the DVD's that are advertised at the top of the page. Do a bit of research on sires and dams and characteristics of the prominent "lines" of labs (always a topic that will produce an endless thread with three opinions for everyone who posts)
> 
> ...


Thanks so much, 1tulip. I'm actually more inclined to participate in Hunt Tests, from what I know.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mossy Dell said:


> Maybe this is a good place to introduce myself, since I am new to the forum and thinking of getting back into retrievers. My wife and I are renovating a house for our retirement in SW Virginia, on 7 acres at Riner, beside our daughter and son in law and grandkid. I'm taking early retirement and moving to Riner permanently in June 2017. Till then, it's back and forth.
> 
> I wonder if there is anyone here from SW VA or if there's a retriever club in SW Virginia? I am no longer young but still a novice, having trained a Lab when I was in my 20s down in Florida. Field trialed her a bit, hunted over her—pheasants in Michigan and grouse in Indiana—and she helped raise my kids. Am a little concerned about getting into anything too heavily too fast, but at the same time find myself yearning to get a Lab puppy and train it again.
> 
> I am a teacher and farmed part-time for years, lots of sheep and chickens. My hunting dog became a Jack Russell terrier, and I raised Great Pyrenees to live with the sheep flock and protect it from coyotes. Also I played around a bit with English shepherds and Border collies. I wrote a book about it, Shepherd: A Memoir.


Welcome to the forum. At first I thought your name was a play on words of a well known west coast field trailer.


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## Mossy Dell (Sep 22, 2016)

No, my handle harks back to a famous spring in southwestern Georgia, across from the ranch where I lived as a boy.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Mossy Dell said:


> No, my handle harks back to a famous spring in southwestern Georgia, across from the ranch where I lived as a boy.


Yeah, I could tell from reading your post that you were on the up and up.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Mossy Dell said:


> Thanks so much, 1tulip. I'm actually more inclined to participate in Hunt Tests, from what I know.


You might want to go watch a few events in your area to see how things have evolved. 
The average person in these sports has been given access to good breedings & the 
quality of dog work can be very high because of that.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Labradorks said:


> Methods are typically newer. R+ is not just clickers (in fact, a lot of R+ people don't use clickers) and treats.


I know a few people who have been training UD level and MACH level dogs for years and years and trust me... they were spitting hotdogs before anything "progressive" ever happened LOL

What you're referring to are people who have good marketing programs for inexperienced customers.


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## 2downtheshore (Feb 14, 2016)

"I was simply pointing out that there are younger and/or new people getting into the sport and many are hanging out with progressive trainers"

Sands of time as to what is progressive versus traditional. I imagine, and history reflects, the legions of trainers and handlers that spent time with Rex Carr who all thought of him as extraordinarily progressive. To succeed consistently at such a competitive sport as FTs has been a constant battle of progression.

The bigger issue IMO is aligning with a "progressive" trainer that understand the game and has the experience to understand what it takes to succeed in the chosen level of play. I think we all realize video is just a modern day tool that can be helpful, not just in situations where it provides access otherwise unavailable.
But choose your overall "progressive" philosophy with care, especially if you lack the knowledge to evaluate all the nuances to it. It could be the next epiphany in Retriever training or it just could doom your dog to a level of competence that it was capable of developing way beyond.
If the trainer doesn't have a solid history of getting the most out of dogs (sensitive or head strong high roller) at the chosen game you want to succeed at, I'd be extremely careful of what aspects of their "progressive" philosophy I incorporated into my training.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> I know a few people who have been training UD level and MACH level dogs for years and years and trust me... they were spitting hotdogs before anything "progressive" ever happened LOL
> 
> What you're referring to are people who have good marketing programs for inexperienced customers.


There is a subject right in your wheelhouse


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

mjh345 said:


> There is a subject right in your wheelhouse


Don't hate the player


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Interesting that you should mention marketing. I'm seeing that in our area with two K9 training operations (well, maybe more than that, but two that I've interacted with.) Neither of these are field trainers. Don't specialize in retrievers. Just the kind of training that is marketed to the dog-owning masses. 

One of these businesses specifically aims at problem dogs. (So this is where we went for our CGC!) In discussions with the behaviorist there, they said frankly that very little is off the table in terms of training methods. I can't claim to know everything they do... but I sort of like the cut of their jib. They'll work with dogs that are very red-line and try to rehabilitate them. 

On the other hand, we have the clicker-cookie trainers. I am going to talk to them because they have classes in nosework (Something we could do over the winter.) I'm just going to meet with the owner. Not sure if I'm going to go through with it. Just checking it out. But just from the public face of their operation, they make huge claims for what they can do with "non-abusive training methods."

But aside from all that... maybe it's the good side of the Hunt Test movement that people with all sorts of retrievers from all sorts of line can get in on the bottom floor and see what they can do.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

The issue most often with that is that those "progressive" trainers can't just show up and train their dog with a group of "traditionalists" without spouting off about how training should be done. Of course that operates in reverse also with the "traditionalists" not having the patience to sit around and watch failure after failure from the progressive folks (which is kind of what "reward only" training is all about. Very hard to mesh the two groups without conflict. 

It's just like RTF - everyone knows what they know and no one else knows anything.


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## junbe (Apr 12, 2003)

*The new retriever enthusiasts are at the clubhouse on the swing set.*

The new retriever enthusiasts are at the clubhouse on the swing set.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

2downtheshore said:


> Sands of time as to what is progressive versus traditional. I imagine, and history reflects, the legions of trainers and handlers that spent time with Rex Carr who all thought of him as extraordinarily progressive. To succeed consistently at such a competitive sport as FTs has been a constant battle of progression.
> 
> The bigger issue IMO is aligning with a "progressive" trainer that understand the game and has the experience to understand what it takes to succeed in the chosen level of play. I think we all realize video is just a modern day tool that can be helpful, not just in situations where it provides access otherwise unavailable.
> But choose your overall "progressive" philosophy with care, especially if you lack the knowledge to evaluate all the nuances to it. It could be the next epiphany in Retriever training or it just could doom your dog to a level of competence that it was capable of developing way beyond.
> If the trainer doesn't have a solid history of getting the most out of dogs (sensitive or head strong high roller) at the chosen game you want to succeed at, I'd be extremely careful of what aspects of their "progressive" philosophy I incorporated into my training.


Rex actually was progressive. These "progressive" folks are actually regressing to the days when a chunk of meat was pretty much the only training tool available.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

clicker training and treats can be abusive


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

junbe said:


> The new retriever enthusiasts are at the clubhouse on the swing set.



Nope. They're working overtime to pay the monthly training bills........


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

1tulip said:


> I know before I even type the first words of this... I heard this complaint back in the 70s. Oh, woe is us! The dog sports are dying out. No one is joining in any more. Blah, blah, blah. And I also know that the people who have the time and resources to go at it hard and heavy are older people who have raised their kids pretty much.
> 
> BUT... having so stipulated... what is being done in your area to (1) get more people to hunt birds (2) encourage new people to train their retrievers to retrieve birds and (3) get them more active in running their dogs in organized venues (HT or FT)?
> 
> I would imagine this applies to things like agility and obedience. So I'd like to hear what others are doing to promote their sport.


Can't comment on what folks do your side of the pond to address the issue of 'encouraging others to the sport' (whatever that is) 
I can say that over the last few years having set up an organisation that looked at the 'Middle aged' owner of a Gun Dog rather than targeting the Youth/junior or the retired from work/so called time on their hands, we have developed many that owned a Gun dog breed as a pet/member of the family initially but wanted to do 'Gun Dog activity' . Many of this sector has gone on to achieve accomplishment in Working test and Trial competitions ,far beyond their expectations and or understanding before they started training. Some are still with us and just enjoy the training and don't have aspirations to compete ,but they have found something they never had before .


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Can't comment on what folks do your side of the pond to address the issue of 'encouraging others to the sport' (whatever that is)
> I can say that over the last few years having set up an organisation that looked at the 'Middle aged' owner of a Gun Dog rather than targeting the Youth/junior or the retired from work/so called time on their hands, we have developed many that owned a Gun dog breed as a pet/member of the family initially but wanted to do 'Gun Dog activity' . Many of this sector has gone on to achieve accomplishment in Working test and Trial competitions ,far beyond their expectations and or understanding before they started training. Some are still with us and just enjoy the training and don't have aspirations to compete ,but they have found something they never had before .


How did you identify these people in order to reach out to them?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

1tulip said:


> How did you identify these people in order to reach out to them?


They found what they were looking for .
I encouraged those that realized it.I left the others to continue commenting on forums .


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

polmaise said:


> They found what they were looking for .
> I encouraged those that realized it.I left the others to continue commenting on forums .


They got their dog trainer certification from those forums?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Tobias said:


> They got their dog trainer certification from those forums?


If they did , they have what many got from them ...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

1tulip said:


> How did you identify these people in order to reach out to them?


Go to an agility or obedience match and find participants with hunting breeds. A percentage of them will also be breeders who will want to put a WC or JH on a breeding prospect. Head on down to the dog park and do retrieves with your dog. Listen for people who show interest. 

Go places where people with retrievers, who show a desire to do more than a casual walk (by way of their actions) hang out and demonstrate (informally) how cool field work can be.

Not sure what the cultural differences are but I just went through my usual pre-hunting season inquiry period where I get people calling me looking for help with a hunting dog. 100% of them, when the find out what it really entails, go away.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> Not sure what the cultural differences are but I just went through my usual pre-hunting season inquiry period where I get people calling me looking for help with a hunting dog. 100% of them, when the find out what it really entails, go away.


hahahahaha! Probably true!


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Times they are a changing...

Our physical country has changed since 1920 to 1950 to 2010. We now have a population of over 330 million. 81% of this population lives in NON-rural areas. 62.7% (2013) of this population lives in US cities.Only 3.5% live in "rural areas." The rest live in what is called "pari-rural" areas , small towns. Land use and availability are highly restricted if not expensive. Read all the various RTF postings on this ( parks, park use restrictions, noise ,time, etc.) 

Hunting registration is down. The hunting generation post WWII is dead or dying. Look at your local papers and see their obituaries. Note how the old boys who belonged to clubs, fished and hunted are going. Baby boomers reflect the demographic shifts. Few own large hunting grounds. Thus little association with hunting ,difficult to use/train dogs due to the off stated reasons of time, money, effort, skill, etc. Enthusiasts need extreme motivation to buy, train and compete plus hunt!

The AKC for marketing reasons moved out of only the confirmation/breed events dominated by females. Needing more revenue they encouraged the field breed people to pursue the Hunt Test game. Females were encouraged to participate.More egalitarian sexual mix. I have witnessed this growth since 1984. Field Trials (retrievers) were elite culturally based from the start (1920s). The wealthy males and their female relatives participated from the start. They also pursued the "horsey events." They had lots of play time. Middle class types did not start FTs till the early 60s and only in select geographic regions. 

I do not anticipate increased participation numbers because dogs are expensive and few owners have the demonstrated dedication. I have seen too many wannabees who start but quickly peter out. I am and always have been a dedicated amateur.


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## AAA Gundogs (Mar 17, 2016)

1tulip said:


> I know before I even type the first words of this... I heard this complaint back in the 70s. Oh, woe is us! The dog sports are dying out. No one is joining in any more. Blah, blah, blah. And I also know that the people who have the time and resources to go at it hard and heavy are older people who have raised their kids pretty much.
> 
> BUT... having so stipulated... what is being done in your area to (1) get more people to hunt birds (2) encourage new people to train their retrievers to retrieve birds and (3) get them more active in running their dogs in organized venues (HT or FT)?
> 
> I would imagine this applies to things like agility and obedience. So I'd like to hear what others are doing to promote their sport.


Around California, dog sports means agility and obedience.

It's a shame because we do have some great grounds and a decent hunting culture.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> Don't hate the player


PLAYER????
Not according to Entry Express


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

swliszka said:


> Times they are a changing...
> 
> Hunting registration is down. The hunting generation post WWII is dead or dying. Look at your local papers and see their obituaries. Note how the old boys who belonged to clubs, fished and hunted are going. Baby boomers reflect the demographic shifts. Few own large hunting grounds. Thus little association with hunting ,difficult to use/train dogs due to the off stated reasons of time, money, effort, skill, etc. Enthusiasts need extreme motivation to buy, train and compete plus hunt!


 The US Census disagrees with you about the number of hunting and fishing participants. While the % of adults participating in outdoor recreation may have shifted in the negative the data from 2001-2011 suggests that there are more participants spending more days afield. 2011 is admittedly somewhat dated information, but I was unable to find a more recent reputable survey. 

https://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/fhw11-nat.pdf
pg 43 specifically illustrates this.

What you might be specifically referencing is sports involving a dog (ie small game or waterfowl) vs. big game or "other" sports. If that's your case that's fine, but a blanket statement that # of hunters/fisherman appears incorrect.


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> I know a few people who have been training UD level and MACH level dogs for years and years and trust me... they were spitting hotdogs before anything "progressive" ever happened LOL
> 
> What you're referring to are people who have good marketing programs for inexperienced customers.


Like I said, it's not all about cookies and clickers. There is much more to it than food. If you're looking at all force-free/R+/progressive/relationship-based/whatever-you-want-to-call-them training methods from a surface level (cookies, clickers, etc.) or using examples of how it doesn't work from pet dog people who went to puppy class at PetCo or worked with someone whose never titled a dog or who hasn't worked through the different methods and learned why one works for one dog or handler and not the other, you're really missing out. 

I personally prefer to work with trainers with multiple dogs, multiple temperaments, all with the highest titles in the field(s) we are working in, and who have moved through the different methods and techniques over time with their dogs. They bring the most subjective information to the table. They have hands-on information and experience about working with different temperaments and techniques and can tell me why it works or doesn't work and how it works (or doesn't work) for that particular dog/handler team. 

I don't know who or what you're talking to about the "good marketing". That doesn't apply to the trainers I go to. Their "marketing" is their performances and the performances of their experienced students. I have never been to a seminar with more than about 5% of the audience and working students being inexperienced.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

the "NEW" retriever enthusiast may come in with desire, ability,and time...maybe even some discretionary income....but there is one thing that most don't have, and last time I checked they aren't making anymore of it...and that factor is training grounds

the demise of the retriever sports won't be due to the internal strife, even though it has taken its toll, but grounds are disappearing and not just the grounds we hold our events on. If it wasn't for the generosity of some of the old guardians of the sport , we might not have some venues available. Unfortunately when they pass on, their estates usually go by the wayside due to taxes or inability to maintain the property for recreational property


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

^^^^^ Very true. I think it's important to get state agencies and WMA's involved whenever possible. It can be a pain but they will have the land for a long time. If we don't push them, they won't see the need to set aside land for retriever events. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. 

I was involved in bird dog field trials and in most of the country there are no quail. No hunters means very few new bird dog trialers. Duck hunting is still popular in almost every state. That is a very good pool of hunting retriever owners.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Peter Balzer #81...Out here in the NE we have deer hunters but our "wild" pheasants are non-existent, pockets of woodcock/grouse/partridge hunters are cyclical and waterfowl hunters are down. The hunting incentive to buy, train and hunt dogs is limited. Once again it depends where you live and the available game plus family tradition(s)). I also make a distinction between fishing and hunting. More fishermen than hunters w/out doubt . Did you find the number of registered fisherman versus hunters? Here in MASS the TIPP #s are consistently down for the past 20 years.I also lived and hunted in MN for over 20 years and even there they complain about few birds, low hunter WF numbers and they have 15,000 water bodies plus most have open water access. MA does NOT and hunters have no legal water access. Lastly , go to a HT or a FT and query how many actually hunt with their dogs? My anecdotal view is that few do. I have hunted all my FT dogs since 1977 no matter my residence.

I did a quick review of your USG/NW posting. Thank you. As I suspected bird numbers/hunters are done and over half the money is sent traveling , staying where people go to hunt. The other half is spent on various "supplies." No mention nor would I suspect there would be about dogs. You have to be "hard core."


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

swliszka said:


> Peter Balzer #81...Out here in the NE we have deer hunters but our "wild" pheasants are non-existent, pockets of woodcock/grouse/partridge hunters are cyclical and waterfowl hunters are down. The hunting incentive to buy, train and hunt dogs is limited. Once again it depends where you live and the available game plus family tradition(s)). I also make a distinction between fishing and hunting. More fishermen than hunters w/out doubt . Did you find the number of registered fisherman versus hunters? Here in MASS the TIPP #s are consistently down for the past 20 years.I also lived and hunted in MN for over 20 years and even there they complain about few birds, low hunter WF numbers and they have 15,000 water bodies plus most have open water access. MA does NOT and hunters have no legal water access. Lastly , go to a HT or a FT and query how many actually hunt with their dogs? My anecdotal view is that few do. I have hunted all my FT dogs since 1977 no matter my residence.
> 
> I did a quick review of your USG/NW posting. Thank you. As I suspected bird numbers/hunters are done and over half the money is sent traveling , staying where people go to hunt. The other half is spent on various "supplies." No mention nor would I suspect there would be about dogs. You have to be "hard core."


Since you specifically mentioned hunting and "registered" hunters I found another source. It would appear that the overall # of registered hunters dropped (on a point to point basis) a whopping 0.82% from 2004 to 2015. While your anecdotal view of MA was correct, it was no so of MN which increased ~7,000 hunters. Declines in states such as MA were largely made up in states such a KS and OK. I would argue that the greater shift in dog ownership and use is the popularity and rise of retrievers (labs, goldens, chessies) vs. bird dogs (GSP, English pointers, brittanys etc). Upland bird # and hunters are down nationwide; however, waterfowl seems to be the newer trend and holding its ground. Seemed when I was a kid everybody had a bird down in the kennel or back yard, now it seems everyone has a lab or golden on the couch . . .

https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/Subpages/LicenseInfo/HuntingLicCertHistory20042015.pdf


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## Brettttka (Feb 9, 2013)

Many people have answered the question for a lot of the younger crowd in my opinion as I read through the comments. In my opinion the biggest factor for getting people involved is the cost. Lets face it a good dog cost a good amount of money not only for the pup but if you buy a started dog cost is even higher. Now take someone who hasn't had a hunting or test dog with all the equipment needed to properly care for them is an expensive first time purchase. Granted you can take a back yard breeding and have a good dog don't get me wrong but that would be like showing up to a Harley Rally on a hand built moped with milk crate rear basket (it works for you but your not one of the crowd). Lets face it the cost of this sport is hard for a younger person to dive into it. Also, having people in the area to help teach or mentor you on what you are doing right or wrong in training is a big factor. In my area I would have to drive an hour minimum to get with a experienced trainer to get tips or pointers and that's fine because I enjoy it but other people hit on the fact that the younger generation is raising their kids still and don't have grown children. My kids are 6 and 3. My YLM is 5. He is one of the kids but his training gets pushed back due to work, daughters dance, and kids sports practices. Time and money for the younger generation is what keeps people from rushing over to the sport. I have neither time nor money but I'm here and loving every minute.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

If it's retrospect to anything across that side of the pond . 30 years ago I was bumping shoulders with 'wildfowlers' . 
30 years ago the 'gundog owners' competing in working tests (our equivalent to competitions with bumpers) was scarce. Now it's become 'elite'


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Has anyone's club put together a webpage that seems to attract inquiries?


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> Of course that operates in reverse also with the "traditionalists" not having the patience to sit around and watch failure after failure from the progressive folks (which is kind of what "reward only" training is all about. Very hard to mesh the two groups without conflict.


If you are seeing failure after failure in what I am assuming you are saying are R+ trained dogs, then they are not going to the right trainers and/or they are not doing it right. If they are calling it "reward only" or "positive only" or anything like that, they don't know what they are talking about. Again, if you're only looking at the surface of these methods, you're not getting the information you need to train your dog or understand the techniques.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

1tulip said:


> Has anyone's club put together a webpage that seems to attract inquiries?


Any web page if promoted will attract inquiries.
I am a Chairman of a club that has a web page and I personally hate to deal with most inquiries. Wish there was a filter


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I have a feeling that once people are informed that dogs don't become competent retrievers overnight and by osmosis, that will filter out the psycho's pretty quick.


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Labradorks said:


> Like I said, it's not all about cookies and clickers. There is much more to it than food. If you're looking at all force-free/R+/progressive/relationship-based/whatever-you-want-to-call-them training methods from a surface level (cookies, clickers, etc.) or using examples of how it doesn't work from pet dog people who went to puppy class at PetCo or worked with someone whose never titled a dog or who hasn't worked through the different methods and learned why one works for one dog or handler and not the other, you're really missing out.
> 
> I personally prefer to work with trainers with multiple dogs, multiple temperaments, all with the highest titles in the field(s) we are working in, and who have moved through the different methods and techniques over time with their dogs. They bring the most subjective information to the table. They have hands-on information and experience about working with different temperaments and techniques and can tell me why it works or doesn't work and how it works (or doesn't work) for that particular dog/handler team.
> 
> I don't know who or what you're talking to about the "good marketing". That doesn't apply to the trainers I go to. Their "marketing" is their performances and the performances of their experienced students. I have never been to a seminar with more than about 5% of the audience and working students being inexperienced.



What are the "highest levels" being consistently achieved in field work by these trainers you speak of? No one is consistently achieving the highest levels in field work using the "progressive" methods you describe so I am curious.


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## 67632 (Nov 28, 2015)

Migillicutty said:


> What are the "highest levels" being consistently achieved in field work by these trainers you speak of? No one is consistently achieving the highest levels in field work using the "progressive" methods you describe so I am curious.


I'm mostly talking about other sports because you're right, not many people doing higher level field work with higher level titles use R+ or progressive methods. I also think that they don't know what R+ is beyond the surface -- true R+ not "purely positive" -- as evidenced by some of the comments I receive. 

The people I work with for field who have many higher level titles are traditional but support my methods because they work for us. I also work with some high level obedience people (UD, OTCH, etc.) with difficult dogs (one has Chessies and many have high energy/arousal Labs) who do lower level field work (JH, SH typically) successfully using R+, but mostly do it as an accessory to other sports because their dogs love it (like me).


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## Kajun Kamakazi (May 17, 2011)

Labradorks said:


> I'm mostly talking about other sports because you're right, not many people doing higher level field work with higher level titles use R+ or progressive methods. I also think that they don't know what R+ is beyond the surface -- true R+ not "purely positive" -- as evidenced by some of the comments I receive.
> 
> The people I work with for field who have many higher level titles are traditional but support my methods because they work for us. I also work with some high level obedience people (UD, OTCH, etc.) with difficult dogs (one has Chessies and many have high energy/arousal Labs) who do lower level field work (JH, SH typically) successfully using R+, but mostly do it as an accessory to other sports because their dogs love it (like me).



I've got 3 young BLM over here that I would like to see someone try R+ on.


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

Migillicutty said:


> What are the "highest levels" being consistently achieved in field work by these trainers you speak of? No one is consistently achieving the highest levels in field work using the "progressive" methods you describe so I am curious.[/QUOT
> 
> I think this is part of the problem. We are quick to judge others methods and accomplishments. This isn't the way to bring new people into the sport. IMHO I am a traditional Carr based trainer & am against Silver Labs but when an R+ trainer with a Silver shows up at a training day how are they treated? Food for thought. Vic


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

1tulip said:


> If you stick around long enough, you'll see things you woulda never believed possible. Honest, I saw a Curly Coat do some decent Master work. So I'm never going to say never.


There have been FTCH. curly coated retrievers in the UK, New Zealand and Australia. In the early years of field trials here in the U.S., (30's and 40'), two curly coated retrievers earned field trial points and, on occasion, won stakes including winning the Midwest Amateur Field Trial. 

In recent years in the U.S., one curly won a qual and also has another qual placement, another curly jammed a qual, two other curlies got 4th places in quals. All AKC field trials. The sire I picked out for my dog's MH bitch just got his first master pass at 22 months--completely amateur trained and handled. 

There are 16 MH curlies which sounds like a pitiful amount and it is. Here are the retriever registration numbers the year I bred my first litter: 

Labradors: 71,235
Goldens: 54,490
Chesapeakes: 4,499
Flats: 301
Irish Water Spaniels: 105
Curly coats: 54 (7 of who were the pups I registered that year from my first litter).

Not all curlies can do good work or even decent work but some can.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

ZEKESMAN said:


> Migillicutty said:
> 
> 
> > What are the "highest levels" being consistently achieved in field work by these trainers you speak of? No one is consistently achieving the highest levels in field work using the "progressive" methods you describe so I am curious.[/QUOT
> ...


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Labradorks said:


> Like I said, it's not all about cookies and clickers. There is much more to it than food. If you're looking at all force-free/R+/progressive/relationship-based/whatever-you-want-to-call-them training methods from a surface level (cookies, clickers, etc.) or using examples of how it doesn't work from pet dog people who went to puppy class at PetCo or worked with someone whose never titled a dog or who hasn't worked through the different methods and learned why one works for one dog or handler and not the other, you're really missing out.
> 
> I personally prefer to work with trainers with multiple dogs, multiple temperaments, all with the highest titles in the field(s) we are working in, and who have moved through the different methods and techniques over time with their dogs. They bring the most subjective information to the table. They have hands-on information and experience about working with different temperaments and techniques and can tell me why it works or doesn't work and how it works (or doesn't work) for that particular dog/handler team.
> 
> I don't know who or what you're talking to about the "good marketing". That doesn't apply to the trainers I go to. Their "marketing" is their performances and the performances of their experienced students. I have never been to a seminar with more than about 5% of the audience and working students being inexperienced.


Talking 'Flushing /Hunting dogs' .Teaching /and a process that the dog will or can understand when to 'turn' while questing/hunting a pattern. 
It's obviously no use using a traditional 'two pips' to turn if the dog doesn't already know what two pips actually mean !?
The process should be easy enough for most , but what if the dog has a natural desire to turn on those two pips with an 'outward turn away from you ?' ..ie losing pattern that covers the ground and becomes a circle in front of you with pips that keep the dog within range but missing the ground to be covered  . 
Recently a polite gent with his springer said he would lure the dog with his body movement .I replied 'But how can this work when the dog is remote from you at 15 yards with it's nose to the deck on scent 'hunting and in cover?' . 
He didn't like my demonstration of ear pinch although the dog responded to the pressure and completed the procedure. 
He continued to demonstrate to me how he would lure the dog to turn in the pattern desired all be it within the confines of his arm length with a treat in his hand . The dog did respond ...........
I don't think we will see this one in the awards or the field .


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Robert - I thought all those springers came with built in GPS hunting range and technique already known. WTH.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"Recently a polite gent with his springer said he would lure the dog with his body movement. I replied 'But how can this work when the dog is remote from you at 15 yards with it's nose to the deck on scent hunting and in cover?'"_

This skill is foreign to most retriever trainers. However, the concept of "physical influence" is well documented in upland work. From my experience, manipulating a dog in the uplands at rather large distances can be accomplished without saying a single word or using a whistle (or e-collar). With flushing dogs (at 15 yards, in cover with their nose to the ground) it is very much easier. I used it all the time when guiding upland "canned hunts". 

My youngest Lab was recently introduced to working her first chukars in an upland setting. By the end of six chukars, I could change her direction without saying a word (and not using the e-collar). Some of this is because dogs have a natural tendency to quarter. In addition, if they are responsive, they have a built in desire to stay "in touch" with the pack leader.


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