# JH judges?



## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

There's a double header in the Pacific NW area in a couple weeks I'd like to enter.... my work/school schedule is only going to allow me to get away for one day, not both, unfortunately. The judges are Misalyn Armstrong/Kent Walker (Sat) and Jim Brannon/Dick Lamping (Sun). Anyone ran under any of those judges and have a preference or are both teams pretty comparable? I have a 2 yr old YLF that's FF'd, marks well, barely started handling, no training on cheating water marks. She's fun but very much a Junior dog. The grounds have sagebrush and hills, large oval and round ponds. Since I don't know if they're on RTF or not, feel free to PM me with any comments. It's been about 9 years since I last ran a HT and I'd heard rumors that some JH judges were setting up tests with much more advanced expectations than when I used to run. I don't mind a challenge, I'd just like a reasonable chance at a JH pass.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

I would say you have a reasonable chance at a pass by the description of your dog. You can gentley restrain the dog at the line with a flat buckle collar and if she'll deliver to hand you have a good shot. Read up on the rules and go have fun.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Judge shopping Juniors? really? Your dog can do it or he can't it's four singles for god sake.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

Yep. 

I show a *lot* - see my sig line - but this is the first I have ever asked about judges. I have very, very few free days this coming year and would like to make the most of the days I do get to show.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

I have never met a JR judge whose goal was to fail dogs...... Either you can do the work or not! Wear fresh jockey shorts and take deep breathes while dog is working.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

IdahoLabs said:


> Yep.
> 
> I show a *lot* - see my sig line - but this is the first I have ever asked about judges. I have very, very few free days this coming year and would like to make the most of the days I do get to show.


I'm confused? sig line?

/Paul


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## just me (Feb 17, 2010)

his signature..he has 4 dogs,all with obediance titles, one with a jh, one has either a tracking intermediate title or is a therapy dog (tdi can mean either) and a few other titles


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

My suggestion to the op is to delete this thread as it does not reflect favorably on you. HPW


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

just me said:


> his signature..he has 4 dogs,all with obediance titles, one with a jh, one has either a tracking intermediate title or is a therapy dog (tdi can mean either) and a few other titles



So your saying they shop other venues for easy judges so they can proudly display the alphabet behind their dogs name. Nothing like taking the easy way.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

I have seen what I consider to be poor judging at all levels of FTs and HTs. This includes Junior level tests. Why should anyone with limited resources, be they time and/or money not want to avoid running under judges that set up poor or dangerous tests. Cheaty slicing entries in to water that may set back training on a young or less experienced dog. 

I for one am tired of running under judges that make up rules and tell you things contrary to what the AKC or UKC considers as legit. Also, some judges are just more or less fun to run under than others.

Yes, I think my dogs should be able to pass under just about any set of judges at any test level. It still doesn't mean I want to run under them all. 

It is still a team sport. One of the best things I can bring to the table is deciding who I run under and where and when. Some folks have more money than sense. More power to them.

To the OP, sorry I don't know anything about either set of judges. Hopefully, they are all excellent. Good luck!

John


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

IdahoLabs said:


> Yep.
> 
> I show a *lot* - see my sig line - but this is the first I have ever asked about judges. I have very, very few free days this coming year and would like to make the most of the days I do get to show.


So lets just say the test is fair the judges are fair but for some reason you don't pass. Did you just waste your time and your money? Seems to me how you answer that question would determine whether or not you run the test, no matter who the judges are.


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## forhair (Feb 4, 2013)

Your dog needs experience with flyers. If the flyer is still alive, make sure your dog will pick it up. Your dog may have to track the bird down. Your dog will most likely be judged on cheating on the retrieve. As long as the dog takes the water route to fetch the bird, you should be fine even it the dog cheats on the return. They don't judge negatively a cheating return as long as you don't try to handle the return. In other words, don't stop the dog on the return if your canine cheats. Some would say that you should insure the dog is de-cheated before you run because all you are doing is encouraging a dog to cheat by running a test before the dog has been de-cheated. 

Some judges will mark you down on trainability if you ask the dog to sit several times or if you use syrupy encouragement on the return. 

Most judges will set up a test that does not encourage cheating. 

Don't come to the line with a slip lead on the dog. Don't say anything to the dog between the time you let the judges know you are ready and the time your judge releases you by calling your number or saying "dog". Don't touch the dog until you have the bird in hand. Make sure the dog delivers to hand. If the dog will not sit because it is raining, don't use your hand to make the dog sit. 

As long as your dog can do these things, you have nothing to worry about. Taking time off work, driving a long way, paying fuel prices, getting a hotel room, and eating on the road are all major concerns to many people. No one is just going to give you anything in life, however. If your dog can do this work, you have nothing to worry about except at the end of the day, they are still just dogs. A dog that can do the work will sometimes surprise you. If the dog cannot do this work, wait until he can unless you are prepared to accept the high price to fail something you are not quite ready for. 

Finally, weather can be a factor with young dogs. Soggy birds, cold weather, heavy rain etc. can influence the performance of a young dog, who is otherwise predictable. 

All judges take time out of their schedule and away from their families to make tests possible. Becoming a judge requires a tremendous effort and considerable time. They are all qualified to do what they do. The process is arduous, but it works. If you or your dog make mistakes, they will fail you. It is then your responsibility to go home, learn from your mistakes, and correct them. As you move up in levels, the complexity of the test and the interpretation of the rules seem to become less congruent. At this level you sometimes need a great dog, a good dog who has a great weekend, a little luck, or adroit handling skills. I think these handling skills are rarely innate. I know that I don't have them, but I'm trying. While some may lack the capacity to gain them, they seem to come only through a minimum of 10,000 hours of experience. In my opinion, you will not need to worry about any of this at the Junior level.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

IdahoLabs said:


> There's a double header in the Pacific NW area in a couple weeks I'd like to enter.... my work/school schedule is only going to allow me to get away for one day, not both, unfortunately. The judges are Misalyn Armstrong/Kent Walker (Sat) and Jim Brannon/Dick Lamping (Sun). Anyone ran under any of those judges and have a preference or are both teams pretty comparable? I have a 2 yr old YLF that's FF'd, marks well, barely started handling, no training on cheating water marks. She's fun but very much a Junior dog. The grounds have sagebrush and hills, large oval and round ponds. Since I don't know if they're on RTF or not, feel free to PM me with any comments. It's been about 9 years since I last ran a HT and I'd heard rumors that some JH judges were setting up tests with much more advanced expectations than when I used to run. I don't mind a challenge, I'd just like a reasonable chance at a JH pass.


 I would say instead of entering just watch and see a test and get mental thoughts on the mechanics of the test. It can be money in the bank in the future since your time is limited. 
I wouldn’t worry too much about the judges because they are there to help you and get you going into the dog games.
Your dog is young and there is room for improvement if you pursue further, unless there is another agenda you are seeking. 
I hope it is not the latter....

Good luck either way.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

Lotta amusing assumptions..... 

Let me be clear - I have never judge shopped, like showing under the judges with a sharp pencil, and do not make excuses for my dogs - or myself - in or out of the ring. I compete at the advanced levels of obedience and can no longer count how many times I've qualified in the ring. I know what a Jr test looked like 10 years ago. I've probably got exactly four chances to run this dog this summer and I want to make the most of them.

My genuine thanks to those of you who've been helpful.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Don't come to the line with a slip lead on the dog.

Why not?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

IdahoLabs said:


> Lotta amusing assumptions.....
> 
> Let me be clear - I have never judge shopped, like showing under the judges with a sharp pencil, and do not make excuses for my dogs - or myself - in or out of the ring. I compete at the advanced levels of obedience and can no longer count how many times I've qualified in the ring. I know what a Jr test looked like 10 years ago. I've probably got exactly four chances to run this dog this summer and I want to make the most of them.
> 
> My genuine thanks to those of you who've been helpful.


10(ten) years is an awful long time...Just saying. Look what happen to the internet in ten years. Not trying to be disrespectful, but maybe do a boomdolgel(sp) and see what has change.
It might be in your best interest and with such a short time frame you have committed.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

IdahoLabs said:


> There's a double header in the Pacific NW area in a couple weeks I'd like to enter....
> .....The judges are _______ (Sat) and _________ (Sun). Anyone ran under any of those judges and have a preference or are both teams pretty comparable?.........
> .......I'd heard rumors that some JH judges were setting up tests with much more advanced expectations than when I used to run. I don't mind a challenge, I'd just like a reasonable chance at a JH pass.





IdahoLabs said:


> Lotta amusing assumptions.....
> 
> Let me be clear - I have never judge shopped,........




Um,
what the 1st post in the thread is, is judge shopping. and with a few exceptions we all have to plan and juggle life and family and all that goes with it. I tell ya your (only 4 times to run) this summer are double the chances many reading this will have. We all would love to enter an event every weekend.
the issue with this type of judge shopping, unlike the usual gallery chat with a dozen folk is this is worldwide. Did you want somebody to say live on the internets that judge x or y is a total hardass and will screw you? Or is so totaly easy any pigadore with a pulse can pass?

What ever day you enter please thank your judges when you walk off line.
and when ever you type out judges names here it should be a thank you post about the great job they did followed by your name. actualy only reason I am typing is 'cause 4 hard working dogs folks got "called out" by somebody who dont even post under a name. that does chafe me a twad.

So you know, Idaho. My name is Ken Bora.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ken Bora said:


> Um,
> what the 1st post in the thread is, is judge shopping. and with a few exceptions we all have to plan and juggle life and family and all that goes with it. I tell ya your (only 4 times to run) this summer are double the chances many reading this will have. We all would love to enter an event every weekend.
> the issue with this type of judge shopping, unlike the usual gallery chat with a dozen folk is this is worldwide. Did you want somebody to say live on the internets that judge x or y is a total hardass and will screw you? Or is so totaly easy any pigadore with a pulse can pass?
> 
> ...


I now realize that judges were named....My bad. Ignorance is bliss on my part.


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## forhair (Feb 4, 2013)

John Gassner said:


> Don't come to the line with a slip lead on the dog.
> 
> Why not?


They are fine in your pocket, but not on the dog. Somebodies rule about British slip leads. great idea in the holding blind though. I've had two young dogs that backed out of collars at the last holding blind on the way to the line. Fortunately, only one broke. The test environment really jacks up some young dogs that were steady at home. The first time I saw a guy get disqualified for loosing a dog from the holding blind, I felt really bad for him because he had a quick ride home without running a single test. In this instance, the dog just jerked the lead out of his owners hand and broke on the gun fire. About the 70th time I ran a Junior or Started test, I lost one at the holding blind too when she backed out of a collar with the gunfire. It's embarrassing and very disappointing no matter how many times you have run the test. If your dog is jacked up, think about a slip lead until they call you to the line and then put on a snap lead to his collar. I guess some would say that if your dog is that jacked up, you shouldn't be running the dog yet, but I'm personally not one to sensibly listen to all the good advice I'm given. 

I'd add, don't leave the line with a British slip lead either. 

Now this is probably a grey area where a Judge may warn you rather than fail you.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

forhair said:


> They are fine in your pocket, but not on the dog. Somebodies rule about British slip leads. great idea in the holding blind though. I've had two young dogs that backed out of collars at the last holding blind on the way to the line. Fortunately, only one broke. The test environment really jacks up some young dogs that were steady at home. The first time I saw a guy get disqualified for loosing a dog from the holding blind, I felt really bad for him because he had a quick ride home without running a single test. In this instance, the dog just jerked the lead out of his owners hand and broke on the gun fire. About the 70th time I ran a Junior or Started test, I lost one at the holding blind too when she backed out of a collar with the gunfire. It's embarrassing and very disappointing no matter how many times you have run the test. If your dog is jacked up, think about a slip lead until they call you to the line and then put on a snap lead to his collar. I guess some would say that if your dog is that jacked up, you shouldn't be running the dog yet, but I'm personally not one to sensibly listen to all the good advice I'm given.
> 
> I'd add, don't leave the line with a British slip lead either.
> 
> Now this is probably a grey area where a Judge may warn you rather than fail you.


Yah I woulds say if your having that many issues with what type of lead is going to control fido the best, you may want to take a step back and reconsider your training a bit, and run him at a latter date.. Just sayin..


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

forhair said:


> They are fine in your pocket, but not on the dog. Somebodies rule about British slip leads. great idea in the holding blind though. I've had two young dogs that backed out of collars at the last holding blind on the way to the line. Fortunately, only one broke. The test environment really jacks up some young dogs that were steady at home. The first time I saw a guy get disqualified for loosing a dog from the holding blind, I felt really bad for him because he had a quick ride home without running a single test. In this instance, the dog just jerked the lead out of his owners hand and broke on the gun fire. About the 70th time I ran a Junior or Started test, I lost one at the holding blind too when she backed out of a collar with the gunfire. It's embarrassing and very disappointing no matter how many times you have run the test. If your dog is jacked up, think about a slip lead until they call you to the line and then put on a snap lead to his collar. I guess some would say that if your dog is that jacked up, you shouldn't be running the dog yet, but I'm personally not one to sensibly listen to all the good advice I'm given.
> 
> I'd add, don't leave the line with a British slip lead either.
> 
> Now this is probably a grey area where a Judge may warn you rather than fail you.


If I know that I have a hard charger, then the lead I have will do a wrap around the body of the dog and underneath the lead. When dog tries to go forward the compression on the chest or stomach stops them.
Just my two cents.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Could just be a rummer but I heard the first set of judges typically sets there marks at 96 yards as the crow flys and the second set of judges also typically has there marks at 96 yards but it's actuale land covered, could be a big difference depending on the terrain where the test is held. Which ever set you pick make sure you bring a range finder to double check the judges..;-)


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

John Gassner said:


> Don't come to the line with a slip lead on the dog.
> 
> Why not?





forhair said:


> They are fine in your pocket, but not on the dog. Somebodies rule about British slip leads. great idea in the holding blind though. I've had two young dogs that backed out of collars at the last holding blind on the way to the line. Fortunately, only one broke. The test environment really jacks up some young dogs that were steady at home. The first time I saw a guy get disqualified for loosing a dog from the holding blind, I felt really bad for him because he had a quick ride home without running a single test. In this instance, the dog just jerked the lead out of his owners hand and broke on the gun fire. About the 70th time I ran a Junior or Started test, I lost one at the holding blind too when she backed out of a collar with the gunfire. It's embarrassing and very disappointing no matter how many times you have run the test. If your dog is jacked up, think about a slip lead until they call you to the line and then put on a snap lead to his collar. I guess some would say that if your dog is that jacked up, you shouldn't be running the dog yet, but I'm personally not one to sensibly listen to all the good advice I'm given.
> 
> I'd add, don't leave the line with a British slip lead either.
> 
> Now this is probably a grey area where a Judge may warn you rather than fail you.


Who's rule? The rules allow you to use a slip chord through the collar in Junior. Are you saying there is a "rule" stating that you cannot come to the line with a certain type of lead? I cannot find it in the 2012 regs and guide for AKC HTs.


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## forhair (Feb 4, 2013)

John Gassner said:


> Who's rule? The rules allow you to use a slip chord through the collar in Junior. Are you saying there is a "rule" stating that you cannot come to the line with a certain type of lead? I cannot find it in the 2012 regs and guide for AKC HTs.


That's a good point, John. You can run a slip cord through the collar. It's a slick trick and works well for releasing the dogs. I like it! You just can't have a British style slip lead around the dog's neck. Rather, you must use a flat buckle collar.

I would very quickly add that a discussion about judges by name is not going to happen in a public forum of this nature unless someone is perhaps going to complement a judge by name. These names are probably already public record on Entry Express, however. Nothing disrespectful has been mentioned about anyone of them. They have simply been immortalized by the power of the internet. In a few months, should you Google their names, you might find a link to this thread. I also think it is safe to assume you will not find anyone enter into a discussion as to the most desirable judge to have in an open forum. You will not find a discussion on a public forum about the least desirable judge to have. You will not find a public discussion about which pair of judges to "pick". 

If you haven't done run a test in some time, you want to improve your odds. Only gamblers seem to accept loosing. I understand seeking intelligence that will improve your odds. No one is going to provide what you asked, however. Next time simply state that you are thinking about running a Junior test under judges X,Y,Z and A. Does anyone have any advice for you given your dog's specific ability. 

It really is a credit to the individuals who run dogs. In almost any industry there are forums where disgruntled individuals will publicly discuss their negative experiences. Not here. I can't even say something negative about the hotel I almost stayed in in LaVergne, Tn this past weekend. Before we settled on a cash arrangement, they let me inspect the room first. When I found soiled pink panties at the foot of the bed and thick, curly hair in the bedding during inspection, they were most respectful when I elected to take my business transaction further down the road.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

forhair said:


> ...... I found soiled pink panties at the foot of the bed and thick, curly hair in the bedding during inspection, they were most respectful when I elected to take my business transaction further down the road.


Yuk! 
Terrible what those Curly-Coated Retriever folks do to motel rooms! 
motels that rent to them need to be listed!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

John Gassner said:


> Who's rule? The rules allow you to use a slip chord through the collar in Junior. Are you saying there is a "rule" stating that you cannot come to the line with a certain type of lead? I cannot find it in the 2012 regs and guide for AKC HTs.





forhair said:


> That's a good point, John. You can run a slip cord through the collar. It's a slick trick and works well for releasing the dogs. I like it! You just can't have a British style slip lead around the dog's neck. Rather, you must use a flat buckle collar.


The rules say that the dog can be brought to the line on leash with a flat buckle collar. It does not say what kind of leash or whether or not it can be a slip lead and a collar. The rules do not say that the leash must be clipped to the collar or that it cannot be a slip lead. Of course, some judges do love their unwritten rules--especially, it seems, in Junior.



> (2) Dogs shall be steady but may be brought to the line on leash with a flat buckle collar. The dog is under judge- ment when it leaves the holding blind. A Junior dog that is not under control when brought to the line (jumping, strongly tugging, etc.) even though it is on a leash shall risk receiving a lower score in trainability including zero in extreme cases. Dogs may be restrained gently with a slipcord looped through the flat buckle collar, or held gently by the flat buckle collar until sent to retrieve,


Now, can you use a choke chain in Junior?


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## Spry (Dec 29, 2013)

I have ran a JH test under some of these judges this year. They set up a nice fair but challenging test. My dog spit the first water bird at my feet and rotated towards the next station. No way was she getting away with that! I reached down picked up the bird and handed it to the judge, clipped my dog and said thank you we have some training to do. Both agreed with my actions and the next week while watching some masters run the same judge (who was running a dog) came over and sat by me chatted and gave me some advice. So in my opinion pick a test there all good, drink some pepto, hold on and have fun!

Lee


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

It appears some folks would want a permanent site entitled "Rate the Judges" like "Rate the Teachers...Doctors..Lawyers..Body Shops...Bakers...etc." Phewwww...


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## sdnordahl (Sep 1, 2012)

Did you enter the test? I'll be there Saturday and Sunday running JR. Look me up. I was there last yr and the tests were fair. No clue who the judges were. Not sure it matters.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

The 1st 2 tests I ran were a weekend doubleheader. Neither of us was ready. We failed miserably. The judges on both days were extremely nice, patient and helpful. I asked questions later about how to fix our problems. The next 4 tests we had it figured out and passed. Again, I have nothing but great things to say about those judges. 

Maybe I have been lucky, but I doubt it. I think most judges want to see you pass. Afterall, they were once in our shoes.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

You can use a choke chain to bring a dog to the line in minor HT and FT stakes. You cannot run a dog with it on in any AKC events. Of course, some judges "create" rules. Almost every HT I've been to in the last year has had "creative" judges with "secret rulebooks". Not all judges, most get it right, but there's always one.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

Thanks for the suggestions, folks.

To the other comments - those of us who have competed in a lot of shows/tests/trials often develop judge preferences. Not that we won't show under a judge, but that if there's a choice between judge A and B, we prefer one over the other. Those of you who still think I'm judge shopping need to compete more, and one of these days you might understand my question.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

IdahoLabs said:


> Thanks for the suggestions, folks.
> 
> To the other comments - those of us who have competed in a lot of shows/tests/trials often develop judge preferences. Not that we won't show under a judge, but that if there's a choice between judge A and B, we prefer one over the other. Those of you who still think I'm judge shopping need to compete more, and one of these days you might understand my question.


No doubt you will have years of fun running juniors


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

IdahoLabs said:


> /Dick Lamping (Sun).
> 
> I'd just like a reasonable chance at a JH pass.


Tell Dick Lamping that his buddies from East TN said hello. 

You will have a reasonable chance at a pass.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

HarryWilliams said:


> My suggestion to the op is to delete this thread as it does not reflect favorably on you. HPW


I agree, I think it is in very poor taste to name judges and ask everybody's opinion on an open forum.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

badbullgator said:


> No doubt you will have years of fun running juniors


Too funny


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

badbullgator said:


> No doubt you will have years of fun running juniors


Well played. That one made me belly laugh.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

IdahoLabs said:


> Thanks for the suggestions, folks.
> 
> To the other comments - those of us who have competed in a lot of shows/tests/trials often develop judge preferences. Not that we won't show under a judge, but that if there's a choice between judge A and B, we prefer one over the other. Those of you who still think I'm judge shopping need to compete more, and one of these days you might understand my question.


If you competed in hunt tests, as much as you say...you wouldn't be asking on RTF about a particular judge, as you should have already run under them, or know someone that has run under them....

Maybe you should check the premium to see if they are running the test on a golf course, so fido gets a "fair" marking test...


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## Dazed (Apr 7, 2013)

(He's probably running right now, so a bit late)For the record, i have run under Kent Walker. Found him to be Consistent in Judging. Test was a little challenging for a junior, but that was ok. He judged all dogs fairly and consistently, and at the end of the day, that's all I ask. I'd test under him again, no worries.


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## splashdash (Aug 1, 2007)

To the OP, you might get more useful information by contacting people who regularly run field events in your area about training with them and getting an honest evaluation of where your dog's training level is at.


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## kelrobin (Aug 12, 2013)

John Gassner said:


> Who's rule? The rules allow you to use a slip chord through the collar in Junior. Are you saying there is a "rule" stating that you cannot come to the line with a certain type of lead? I cannot find it in the 2012 regs and guide for AKC HTs.


As forhair said, you can use one through the collar, but you cannot have the slip lead/kennel lead around the dog's neck. We used to be able to and can still do it at HRC tests and Canadian tests, but not at AKC.

It really doesn't make sense to me, but somebody thought it did when they changed the rules.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

kelrobin said:


> As forhair said, you can use one through the collar, but you cannot have the slip lead/kennel lead around the dog's neck. We used to be able to and can still do it at HRC tests and Canadian tests, but not at AKC.
> 
> It really doesn't make sense to me, but somebody thought it did when they changed the rules.


Not meaning to keep hijacking this thread, but can you specifically show me where I can find this "rule" stating you cannot come to the line with a slip lead and then take it off at the line before running? As I already stated in my previous post, I am aware that you CAN use a slip lead through the flat collar. 

I am NOT aware or AKC rules about not using slip leads to bring a dog to the line or where you must place your lead/leash while running a Junior stake.

John


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

John- I looked as well and could not find any reference to slip leads, but let's clarify what we are talking about. To me, a slip lead is one that operates like a noose or choke chain. The rules do refer to keeping disciplinary devices out of sight while the dog is working. Pages 28-29, Chapter 5 says junior dogs may be brought to the line on a leash with a flat buckle collar. Compare this with Senior and Master- no collar. One can argue when you put them all together, it implies no slip leads. Not chapter and verse black letter rules, but it does make some sense. 

This is an example of what makes me crazy in dog games- field trials being even worse- some "rules" don't exist on the books, but are followed, while others in the book are ignored. A slippery handle to get a grip upon. 

David


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## Goose Man (Aug 26, 2013)

Last weekend at the Sooner HT I questioned the Jr HT Judges on Sunday about using a "line" through the flat buckle collar. I saw a handler do it on Saturday but did not get a chance to question it. Again on Sunday the same handler did it again. While they were rebirding I asked about the rule. Both Judges said the rule had been change a couple years back to allow the handler to use a "line" through the flat buckle collar while they were on the line and to release. The line used in this case was about 18" and 1/8" diameter. The handler came to the line with a "normal" leash and then used this line/cord while on line. Hope this helps.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Goose Man said:


> Last weekend at the Sooner HT I questioned the Jr HT Judges on Sunday about using a "line" through the flat buckle collar. I saw a handler do it on Saturday but did not get a chance to question it. Again on Sunday the same handler did it again. While they were rebirding I asked about the rule. Both Judges said the rule had been change a couple years back to allow the handler to use a "line" through the flat buckle collar while they were on the line and to release. The line used in this case was about 18" and 1/8" diameter. The handler came to the line with a "normal" leash and then used this line/cord while on line. Hope this helps.


The line through the collar is a bad idea for the handler, IMO. Many times I have seen it catch up when the dog is released, pulling it off line, and the junior critter heads in that direction, never to recover. As a handler you are allowed to hold the collar and that is a much better option. It makes it much easier to hold the dog and also to use a little 'english' to make sure the critter sees the bird go down. Handlers in JH are allowed to hold the collar and they should--even if they believe their dog is steady. The rules allow it, so take advantage.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

John Gassner said:


> Not meaning to keep hijacking this thread, but can you specifically show me where I can find this "rule" stating you cannot come to the line with a slip lead and then take it off at the line before running? As I already stated in my previous post, I am aware that you CAN use a slip lead through the flat collar.
> 
> I am NOT aware or AKC rules about not using slip leads to bring a dog to the line or where you must place your lead/leash while running a Junior stake.
> 
> John


Section 5 (2) Dogs shall be steady, but may be brought to the line on leash with a flat buckle collar.

So, your choices are off lead, or on leash with a flat buckle collar. Just because it doesn't specifically state that you can't bring a dog to the line on a slip lead, the rule is pretty clear about what is allowable...pg 29 of the rulebook.

Page 23, Section 17, Equipment: No handler shall carry exposed equipment, (except a whistle)....after the hound is sent, the lead needs to be put in your pocket or laid on the ground...leash in hand is considered equipment....


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

TexGold said:


> John- I looked as well and could not find any reference to slip leads, but let's clarify what we are talking about. To me, a slip lead is one that operates like a noose or choke chain. The rules do refer to keeping disciplinary devices out of sight while the dog is working. Pages 28-29, Chapter 5 says junior dogs may be brought to the line on a leash with a flat buckle collar. Compare this with Senior and Master- no collar. One can argue when you put them all together, it implies no slip leads. Not chapter and verse black letter rules, but it does make some sense.
> 
> OK, to clarify, your logic defies me. How does flat buckle collars, slip chords and being able to bring a dog to the line on a leash in Junior "imply" no slip leads?
> 
> John


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I know that somewhere out there, /Paul is chortling!


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Labs said:


> Section 5 (2) Dogs shall be steady, but may be brought to the line on leash with a flat buckle collar.
> 
> So, your choices are off lead, or on leash with a flat buckle collar. Just because it doesn't specifically state that you can't bring a dog to the line on a slip lead, the rule is pretty clear about what is allowable...pg 29 of the rulebook.
> Page 23, Section 17, Equipment: No handler shall carry exposed equipment, (except a whistle)....after the hound is sent, the lead needs to be put in your pocket or laid on the ground...leash in hand is considered equipment....


I mostly agree with what you are saying here. In Junior, however, you are allowed to use flat collars and slip chords while the dog is running. If you are allowed to use them (and you are per AKC rules), you don't "have" to put the slip chord away.

I agree that the slip lead should be put away or thrown behind you. I had a judge last year try and tell me that the lead was not allowed on the ground, even behind you. She said it was a "rule". She was wrong.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

John Gassner said:


> I mostly agree with what you are saying here. In Junior, however, you are allowed to use flat collars and slip chords while the dog is running. If you are allowed to use them (and you are per AKC rules), you don't "have" to put the slip chord away.
> 
> I agree that the slip lead should be put away or thrown behind you. I had a judge last year try and tell me that the lead was not allowed on the ground, even behind you. She said it was a "rule". She was wrong.


I think the best advice is to ask the judges before the test if slip leads are allowed in their test. Then let the payment hit the ground whether you agree or not.  Just saying.


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

Labs said:


> Section 5 (2) Dogs shall be steady, but may be brought to the line on leash with a flat buckle collar. So, your choices are off lead, or on leash with a flat buckle collar. Just because it doesn't specifically state that you can't bring a dog to the line on a slip lead, the rule is pretty clear about what is allowable...pg 29 of the rulebook. Page 23, Section 17, Equipment: No handler shall carry exposed equipment, (except a whistle)....after the hound is sent, the lead needs to be put in your pocket or laid on the ground...leash in hand is considered equipment....


Thanks Labs for the assist. John, call Andy. Lawyers are good at explaining away inescapable logic and far fetched implications. ; )


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

John Gassner said:


> I mostly agree with what you are saying here. In Junior, however, you are allowed to use flat collars and slip chords while the dog is running. If you are allowed to use them (and you are per AKC rules), you don't "have" to put the slip chord away.
> 
> I agree that the slip lead should be put away or thrown behind you. I had a judge last year try and tell me that the lead was not allowed on the ground, even behind you. She said it was a "rule". She was wrong.


John, the rules clearly state that you can't have exposed equipment except for a whistle. A slip cord, while not a slip lead, is considered equipment in my book. It needs to be on the ground or in your pocket...personally, for JH handlers, I prefer the ground, as it's easier for a nervous handler to remember it was on the ground, vs which pocket they shoved it into... And yes, the judge you had before that said they couldn't be on the grounds, was wrong. You just can't use a slip lead to bring the dog to the line. I even prefer the allowance of the handler to simply hold the collar....less crap to worry about at the line....=)


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Some judges like to mess with handlers, particularly at JH level. Every MH and SH dog goes from blind to blind on a slip lead, some on chokers; probably because 95% of dogs in those levels never wear a collar. If you can do such in the upper stakes I don't find the big deal in JH. I've ran numerous dogs in JH they all come to the last holding blind on a choker, same choker used for every single dog I've ever ran (it's lucky after all ). Some judges make it a mission to say things, for whatever reason, when you are in a holding blind; but there is no rule. Put the choker in your pocket walk out of the holding blind, just as you would in any other stake. Heck finding a flat-buckle that fits every dog is sometimes an issue; most JH dogs I've ran have a "lead" (slip cord-unslipped ) joined around their neck which is dropped when they're released, most go all the way to the line on the same slip lead, which is taken off and unslipped before they run. Most judges will never say a thing, some do. I prefer a dog on slip lead to a dog dragging a handler by the collar; particularly when the handler is a 6-7 yr old kid, but a judge is GAWD on their line; so you submit to their quirks for that day, then go back to your normal routine on every other.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Can i use a choke chain in junior?

/Paul


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Can i use a choke chain in junior?
> 
> /Paul


Only on yourself ;-)


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## Brad (Aug 4, 2009)

I dont think so. Chapter 15 paragraph 20 in rule book


Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Can i use a choke chain in junior?
> 
> /Paul


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

John Gassner said:


> Who's rule? The rules allow you to use a slip chord through the collar in Junior. Are you saying there is a "rule" stating that you cannot come to the line with a certain type of lead? I cannot find it in the 2012 regs and guide for AKC HTs.


...all I know is slip leads seem to throw some judges for a loop(pun intended) I had a Judge tell me that my slip lead was not permitted for use in the holding blind, I was dumbfounded

anyway, participation ribbons for everyone !!!! yeeeeaaaaaa we did it


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## Maxs Mom (Sep 17, 2009)

When I ran JH I brought my dog to the line with the slip lead through her collar, I'd taken it off her as a slip lead in the last blind. To steady her, I took It off from through her collar and put it across her chest/neck. When they called for her I just dropped one side. I could release her more subtle. Any movement to remove the leash my dog was like a race horse breaking out of the gate. Using this method I was not holding her, but she'd run into it if she tried. I could quietly drop one side and then release her. Worked beautifully. 

To this day when I take her slip lead off no matter where I am or what I am doing, she does a rude head shake jump backwards get free movement. Only with a slip lead. She likes her freedom.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Labs said:


> John, the rules clearly state that you can't have exposed equipment except for a whistle. A slip cord, while not a slip lead, is considered equipment in my book. It needs to be on the ground or in your pocket...personally, for JH handlers, I prefer the ground, as it's easier for a nervous handler to remember it was on the ground, vs which pocket they shoved it into... And yes, the judge you had before that said they couldn't be on the grounds, was wrong. You just can't use a slip lead to bring the dog to the line. I even prefer the allowance of the handler to simply hold the collar....less crap to worry about at the line....=)


Read the entire rulebook. Not just the a few chosen sentences. It's amazing how the rules "change". 

Just to be clear, we are still talking about Junior, right? A slip chord is indeed considered training equipment in just about anyone's book, including the AKC's rulebook. MY copy of the AKC rulebook CLEARLY states that a slip chord IS allowed in Junior stakes. 

Unless you have a different method, most folks hold onto at least one end with their hand. Nowhere does it state that you must throw down or tuck away said slip lead at any time after the dog is released. Those that say otherwise are MAKING UP RULES!

MY rulebook makes no mention of not using slip leads to bring a dog to line in Junior stakes. Could you please point out where I can find these "rules" in YOUR rulebook?

Dazed and Confused


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

John Gassner said:


> Read the entire rulebook. Not just the a few chosen sentences. It's amazing how the rules "change".
> 
> Just to be clear, we are still talking about Junior, right? A slip chord is indeed considered training equipment in just about anyone's book, including the AKC's rulebook. *MY copy of the AKC rulebook CLEARLY states that a slip chord IS allowed in Junior stakes.*
> 
> ...


In Bold...You are right on...you can use a slip cord at the line....through the flat buckle collar, or looped around the dogs neck, not cinched, as designed...to help steady a JH dog....but it CLEARLY states your options for bringing the dog to the line....off lead or a leash with a flat buckle collar...so, my interpretation is that you can't bring a JH dog to the line on a slip lead...and this is something that I would mention at the handlers meeting prior to running the test dog...

PS, it doesn't say you can't bring your dog to the line in a Subaru Forester either...but we all know it's unacceptable....


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