# Marks and Blinds, Part 5



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Before we get into constructing marks on this diagram, let's begin by identifying features that make a mark difficult.
When I look at a field, I am looking for:
- Wind
- Terrain
- Obstacles
- Angles

Remember as a general rule
- Downwind marks are harder
- The more obstacles in the way of your mark, the harder it is
- The farther you go (distance), the harder your mark is
- The more angles you make a dog address, the harder your mark is
- The more you can get your mark to incorporate multiple principles, the harder it is

So, when you look at this field, start by identifying features.
I have identified the wind.
We will say that the tree line is 500 yards from the line, so that gives us an idea of distance

Before we create any marks, let's mark up the diagram below with the features that we can incorporate into our marks

Ted


----------



## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

I'm sure I've missed some but here's a start...


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BoilerMan1812 said:


> View attachment 22570
> 
> I'm sure I've missed some but here's a start...



Good start. Where else does terrain change?


----------



## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

New to this but would like to follow.


----------



## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

idk....I added a line that is related to the arrows I had in the original...


----------



## BoilerMan1812 (Feb 6, 2010)

My marks...triple w/ two retired, thrown left to right.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

1st series quad 1 retired with flyer 









scott


----------



## Mike Sale (Feb 1, 2011)

Seems like we all see the same marks but heres mine. pick em up 3,2,1 2 is retired then have him stand back out and run the double blind









My bad I jumped the gun and put out marks . I incorporated the factors but didn't identify first , I apologize.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Read introduction again. We are not building any marks until we identify factors.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

We are trying to create a disciplined structure for the creation of marks. Once you learn to identify the features in a field that influence a dog's path, you can start adding features to increase the level of difficulty or subtract features to simplify your mark.

So I want to make certain we have begun by identifying features.

So I don't want to worry about
- direction of throw
- type of throw
- retired or not 
- interaction of marks
Etc.

We start with identification of features

Ted


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Here is my attempt w/ factors. Not sure how wind affects marks & placement.


----------



## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I'm not very good at this editing thing. I tried to show two converging ridge lines in yellow. I also believe the water extends into/under the ridge between the trees. I indicated the slope of ground with my blue arrows.


----------



## Justin Frye (Jul 11, 2014)

1. General downward slope from the line
2. Low area between line and a small ridge (red circle is top of a tree behind hill)
3. Hill that slopes down from right to left
4. Bottom of the hill with a terrain color change
5. Road/path
6. Shadows from tree line/larger trees
7. Far hill that slopes left to right into ravine behind the trees
8. Blue line seems to show a cover change (for sake of argument, won't consider it a fence line)

For trees, I thought the ones marked with yellow stars would be considered the most when setting up this mark.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Run Around space deep right. Better w/crosswind vs downwind.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Here are my thoughts


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Using the diagram below, pick the best place to put a bird. 

Do not worry about:
- Where the guns will be
- What kind of throw will be used
- Retired or not
- Other guns

Pick your best place to put a bird and tell us why


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Okay here goes. I was trying to set up a long retired bird up the middle so the dog has to push past the short bird but b/c of the terrain & the obvious white coats may stumble there in the middle & hunt?? Could have made the long retired further back. Either distance would make the dog should focus on that long gun? but they might be more interested in the short obvious. JMO


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> View attachment 22585
> 
> 
> Okay here goes. I was trying to set up a long retired bird up the middle so the dog has to push past the short bird but b/c of the terrain & the obvious white coats may stumble there in the middle & hunt?? Could have made the long retired further back. Either distance would make the dog should focus on that long gun? but they might be more interested in the short obvious. JMO




Mary Lynn

Read instructions again, please

Using the diagram below, pick the best place to put a bird. 

Do not worry about*:
- Where the guns will be
- What kind of throw will be used
- Retired or not
- Other guns

Pick your best place to put a bird and tell us why

*So, just place a bird.


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Ted what is the obstacle I circled in green? Is it a hazard if the dog were to choose to go over or through it?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Ted what is the obstacle I circled in green? Is it a hazard if the dog were to choose to go over or through it?



We are assuming it is inpenetrable and does not pose a safety issue


----------



## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

One factor I feel that many ignore is the sky line especially when the dog is coming out of a bottom. More times than not, they head to open sky instead of a tree line.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

My placement….
Dog is crossing obstacle and what looks like a road.


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Bird in line with "cover" either they will go through it, to the ledft into the water or around it to the right.


----------



## Trent Goree (Aug 10, 2005)

Here are the placements that I would consider. Directions of the arrows have no influence on where the marks are coming from.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Bird in line with "cover" either they will go through it, to the ledft into the water or around it to the right.



Why not farther up or down the hill? Or more left or right?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Trent Goree said:


> Here are the placements that I would consider.


Please read instructions again. Pick your best mark. And explain why it is a good mark


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BJ

You wanted me to re-start this game. If so, you have to play by the Rules. Why is this the best mark in this field?


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Why not farther up or down the hill? Or more left or right?


I wanted it the very top ( crest) of the rise, I like the postion left or right because if the dog avoids the cover to the left it will end up in the water if it avoids the cover to the right it will be way right and out of position to end up on bird, if it was centered in the middle of these two factors the dog could potentialy split the difference and still be OK.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

dog with either fall off the slope and or square the terrain change also no direct route to bird protect by tree and wind. I would place the bird on the up-slope near the crest of hilltop 








scott


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> I wanted it the very top ( crest) of the rise, I like the postion left or right because if the dog avoids the cover to the left it will end up in the water if it avoids the cover to the right it will be way right and out of position to end up on bird, if it was centered in the middle of these two factors the dog could potentialy split the difference and still be OK.


Let's address up/down before right/left. 

Do you think a dog is more likely to hunt the hill side behind the brush pile - or the area behind the crest of the hill?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight

Is it possible to line a dog from the mat to your bird?
If yes, is there another place to put a bird where the dog cannot be lined from mat to bird?


----------



## Trent Goree (Aug 10, 2005)

I'm going with this mark here. There is no direct line to the mark, water is to the left and trees to the right. Either side of the obstruction pile the dog chooses, they'll also have to fight the slope of the hill.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

not following you ?

because you can line just about any bird out there. the dog still has to navigate the factory ? correct ?


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Let's address up/down before right/left.
> 
> Do you think a dog is more likely to hunt the hill side behind the brush pile - or the area behind the crest of the hill?


I don't think they will hunt over the hill, this is not my go bird, it's my flyer and it is the first bird down, I want the gunners very visible on the top of the hill, this will set up my short retired bird, sorry probably To much information.


----------



## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

One good mark. Halfway up the hill beyond the brush pile. You cannot line a dog to it. If they run go around the brush pile to the right or left, the tendency of dogs is to run to the top of the hill and hunt the flat. If they run to the right there are lots of factors to push the dog more right. I am not sure what the hazard on the left is but it could play into it. Either way, a dog needs to know where it is going with that wind and the brush pile on line. I would probably have a the other marks well to the right leaving a lot of run around area in the middle down that gulley.


----------



## jonathon27 (Feb 12, 2012)

Ok, I'll bite:
First bird retired tight against brush pile.
Second bird long retired against tree line
third is stand out at the top of the hill through the water to give visual pull away from brush pile bird
then the flyer just at the crest of the hill so they see when they top that hill for the long retired bird
The money bird would probably be the brush pile bird, they alot of dogs would come up with it eventually, few would step on it.

If the wind was slightly left to right I would shoot the flyer the other way with a strong angle back, move the long retired to the right (hip pocket of flyer) and let the wind take feathers to the path to the long retired bird. This would make the long retired bird the money bird.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> I don't think they will hunt over the hill, this is not my go bird, it's my flyer and it is the first bird down, I want the gunners very visible on the top of the hill, this will set up my short retired bird, sorry probably To much information.


I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

I never like to see birds thrown behind an impenetrable pile as some first rate dogs trained to "go as sent" will sacrifice themselves attempting to run through it. 
I recall once watching Hanks dog Babe throw herself on a heavy thicket of brambles trying out line a mark. Whole gallery gasped. 
At other trials saw dogs likely to win on any given weekend scratched by their owners. 
An obstacle on way to mark is fine but be careful.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> not following you ?
> 
> because you can line just about any bird out there. the dog still has to navigate the factory ? correct ?


No, you cannot line through the brush pile.
You can line a dog to your bird.
If you want to test marking, then try to make it impossible - or very difficult - to line a dog to the mark.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

jonathon27 said:


> View attachment 22591
> View attachment 22591
> 
> Ok, I'll bite:
> ...



Read the directions, please


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> One good mark. Halfway up the hill beyond the brush pile. You cannot line a dog to it. If they run go around the brush pile to the right or left, the tendency of dogs is to run to the top of the hill and hunt the flat. If they run to the right there are lots of factors to push the dog more right. I am not sure what the hazard on the left is but it could play into it. Either way, a dog needs to know where it is going with that wind and the brush pile on line. I would probably have a the other marks well to the right leaving a lot of run around area in the middle down that gulley.



Cannot see your diagram


----------



## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Strange, I can see it. I'll try to attach it again . I just copied yours and added an arrow to it.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> Strange, I can see it. I'll try to attach it again . I just copied yours and added an arrow to it.


​It was too small to view


----------



## jonathon27 (Feb 12, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> Read the directions, please


Still go with bird tight against the brush pile on front side of pile. Most dogs will not want to get into that pile. I don't like the bird behind the pile for multiple reasons that bird would not be about marking, but rather training a dog to go and the windicate would either eventually give it away or not depending on what side of the bird your on. If your right of the behind the pile bird the wind will give it away as the wind will actually work left to right taking path of least resistance.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

jonathon27 said:


> Still go with bird tight against the brush pile on front side of pile. Most dogs will not want to get into that pile. I don't like the bird behind the pile for multiple reasons that bird would not be about marking, but rather training a dog to go and the windicate would either eventually give it away or not depending on what side of the bird your on. If your right of the behind the pile bird the wind will give it away as the wind will actually work left to right taking path of least resistance.



Your answer makes no sense. 

1) We train dogs to go straight. For example, we do drills to teach a dog to run straight. We do not do drills that teach a dog to banana around an obstacle and find a bird. You cannot get the bird behind the brush pile by lining (training). 

2) You act as those a dog's nose should not be recognized. Most dogs use their eyes to reach the Area of Fall (AOF) and then use their noses to find the bird within the AOF. Most dogs locate the precise precision of the bird with their noses, not their eyes. 

So, why would I care if the dog winded the bird? After all, the Rule Book tells us to reward a dog with a good nose. The key is to only reward a dog's nose when the dog gets to the AOF, not when it is 40-50 yards away.

There is no reasonable mark that I could put in this field that a dog could not wind.


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> BJ
> 
> You wanted me to re-start this game. If so, you have to play by the Rules. Why is this the best mark in this field?
> 
> ...



Least path of resistance, if not taught, and that includes trails, or primitive roads. 


The money I spent today on gas was in my best interest to help, but now I need to use that resource for other things.
The trip wasn’t a total bust though in that I was granted to train on property by the locals. 
Lastly…I will gracefully pick up my marbles and call it a night and look forward to tomorrow with new horizons with me and my pup out in new opportunities. 
Good night.


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.


Not at all, I'll have to wait for phase 2 or 3 to participate because the reason for putting that bird there has alot to do with the other birds ( that we can't put in the picture yet) if we are to play by the rules..


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I like the mark that Todd picked out -with some changes. 

First, why I like the general area that Todd selected.
- You cannot line a dog to the bird. The brush pile prevents that.
- If you do not retire the gun, as the dog approaches the brush pile, the gun disappears, and the dog no longer has the gun station as a reference point.
- To wind the bird, you must be pretty close to it

Second, why I do not like Todd's specific location
- I would expect dogs to: a) break down short or b) punch long. If (a), Todd's location works. If (b), I am not so sure. Dogs - like us - are lazy. They prefer to run where it's easy to run. It's easy to run on the flats beyond the crest. It's more difficult to run on a side hill. (Think about how difficult a side hill blind is with a dog compared to a blind on a putting green). If a dog punches and runs in the flats, it could wind a bird on the crest by chance. 
- Also, sometimes when you place a bird on the side hill, the wind currents carry the scent up and above the flats
- So, I place the bird on the side hill

Also
- I want my bird more to the water side of the pile. I want to reward a dog that gets to my bird by water, and punish the dog that cheats the water.

Third, more depth
- I want my bird as far from the brush pile as I can get it, without being too close to the crest.
- Why? Dogs like to scoop behind things. I don't know why, they just do. I don't want a dog that scoops tight behind the brush pile to stumble on a bird

Expectations:
1) I expect most dogs to push right off of the brush pile and drive up the hill
2) I expect some dogs to check down and hunt in front of the brush pile
3) I expect some dogs to jump in the water, push off the brush pile, and keep pushing

See green lines on diagram below. Yellow Triangle indicates bird placement.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> Least path of resistance, if not taught, and that includes trails, or primitive roads.
> 
> 
> The money I spent today on gas was in my best interest to help, but now I need to use that resource for other things.
> ...


We can always use your photos on later exercises.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> No, you cannot line through the brush pile.
> You can line a dog to your bird.
> If you want to test marking, then try to make it impossible - or very difficult - to line a dog to the mark.


thought I did, guess not. lol 

Ill try again tomorrow afternoon. 

thx


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Part 2. 

First, please read instructions. 

Second, instructions are as follows:

- Pick out another mark.
- Do not worry about interaction with mark behind brush pile.
- Do not worry about gun placement, retired or not, type of throw, etc.

I simply want you to pick another mark, and defend your selection of that placement.

Ted


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> thought I did, guess not. lol
> 
> Ill try again tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> thx



I never said that it wouldn't be hard to get to your bird. Just that it would be harder to get to the brush pile bird.


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Terrain influences dog to go left. cover change at tree. Once dog at bottom of valley, I believe they will want to square the hill and climb.My mark is positioned so as if the dog caves to the factors he will be lost. I want to see him fight that slope.





e
View attachment 22598


----------



## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

For another mark, I went with a side-hill area, yellow diamond. A dog that holds a good line through terrain and cover changes is rewarded. A cheat to the right, may cause the dog to hang-up in the natural funnel (green oval) and cost some memory time if/when they drive the slope to the left.


----------



## krazybronco2 (Jan 31, 2013)

the second mark i like this one. bird inline with the cedar tree if they go left they end up in the funnel they go right think they would end up on top of the second terrace. ignore the x to the left.


----------



## jonathon27 (Feb 12, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> Your answer makes no sense.
> 
> 1) We train dogs to go straight. For example, we do drills to teach a dog to run straight. We do not do drills that teach a dog to banana around an obstacle and find a bird. You cannot get the bird behind the brush pile by lining (training).
> 
> ...


I never implied to train a dog to "banana" an obstacle but rather train the dog to not break down and keep going when he's lost. I see it in dogs all the time. Also by your own explanation wouldn't this be a contrary mark then, as it is contrary to training.

I think a dog's nose should be recognized but, I do not like for the wind to give a bird away to a dog that did not mark it.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

jonathon27 said:


> I never implied to train a dog to "banana" an obstacle but rather train the dog to not break down and keep going when he's lost. I see it in dogs all the time. Also by your own explanation wouldn't this be a contrary mark then, as it is contrary to training.
> 
> I think a dog's nose should be recognized but, I do not like for the wind to give a bird away to a dog that did not mark it.


Jonathan

I think you use terms loosely, without knowing what they mean. The term "contrary mark" has a specific meaning. A bird behind the brush pile is not a contrary mark. 

I am not into arguing for the sake of arguing, which you seem to be.

So, I am simply going to place you on "ignore"

Ted


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Ted - you talk about 'lining' a dog for a mark? But surely you don't line a dog for a mark, he just marks it and runs to it on your release command? He will either break through obstacles in his path (thick cover, water etc) or if impenetrable go round and set himself back on his course.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Terrain influences dog to go left. cover change at tree. Once dog at bottom of valley, I believe they will want to square the hill and climb.My mark is positioned so as if the dog caves to the factors he will be lost. I want to see him fight that slope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree dogs will climb or fall on side hill.

Why would terrain influence dogs to the left?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GRun said:


> For another mark, I went with a side-hill area, yellow diamond. A dog that holds a good line through terrain and cover changes is rewarded. A cheat to the right, may cause the dog to hang-up in the natural funnel (green oval) and cost some memory time if/when they drive the slope to the left.
> 
> View attachment 22599


I agree that green area is attractive to dogs. I think the word "cheat" is inappropriate here.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

krazybronco2 said:


> the second mark i like this one. bird inline with the cedar tree if they go left they end up in the funnel they go right think they would end up on top of the second terrace. ignore the x to the left.
> 
> View attachment 22600



Downwind, which is good. But it seems relatively flat to the bird, which is bad.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Ted - you talk about 'lining' a dog for a mark? But surely you don't line a dog for a mark, he just marks it and runs to it on your release command? He will either break through obstacles in his path (thick cover, water etc) or if impenetrable go round and set himself back on his course.


KM 

We teach dogs to line. If I want to "test" a dog's ability to mark, I want to eliminate - as much as possible - lining as a possible option for getting the bird. If I make it hard to line, then I am focusing more on a dog's ability to mark - than to line. So because the dog cannot line to the brush pile, in order to get to the bird quickly and briskly, he must demonstrate his ability to do something other than lining. I think that something else is marking. 

Ted


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Mooser Gooser, GRun 

What do dogs do when faced with terrain changes? Does it matter if the dog approaches the terrain change squarely or at an angle? If an angle deflects a dog, is a hard angle or shallow angle more difficult for the dog?


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> KM
> 
> We teach dogs to line. If I want to "test" a dog's ability to mark, I want to eliminate - as much as possible - lining as a possible option for getting the bird. If I make it hard to line, then I am focusing more on a dog's ability to mark - than to line. So because the dog cannot line to the brush pile, in order to get to the bird quickly and briskly, he must demonstrate his ability to do something other than lining. I think that something else is marking.
> 
> Ted


Sorry, I'm not really following you here. I know it is the overseas difference in language and terminology probably. We also teach the dog to line. What I wondered is are you actually putting your hand down and lining the dog for the mark, or just releasing on name/command as we would for a normal mark. I think that is what I was saying about the brush pile? The dog marks and should take the direct line. If the obstacle was crossable I would expect it to go straight. If it really wasn't I would expect it to have to go round and then self-correct its course.

These photos and thoughts are really interesting thank you. I'm going to send you a photo if you want to use it at some point. At least it will be some ground you've not seen or been on! 

Thanks


----------



## jonathon27 (Feb 12, 2012)

WOW! I would have preferred being relieved of my ignorance rather than ignored.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I had originally picked Goosers mark and decided I would try to come up with another one . In choosing this mark ( landing at the back side of the tree on the point) ,if the dog does not get a good mark he might tend to drive deep into either the left or right wooded pocket. (If he fades early and gets on the left side of the big cedar he has a lot of ground to make up to get back on track) If he fades with the terrain and ends up in the left pocket the trees line will prevent him from winding the bird and he will hunt the tree line/pocket and not be willing to come back out of the pocket (burning memory).






I know you said not to worry about anything but the mark , but id the bird was thrown R 2 L and the dog back sides the gun it puts him into the right pocket and the same scenario can happen, not willing to hunt out of the pocket.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

KM, we (most) don't use our hand to give the dog a line, we use it to confirm a line after the dog is looking where we want. But on both marks and blinds we line the dog up with our body position, cues, and commands before sending. Prolonged and intensive lining is considered a fault.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

shawninthesticks said:


> I had originally picked Goosers mark and decided I would try to come up with another one . In choosing this mark ( landing at the back side of the tree on the point) ,if the dog does not get a good mark he might tend to drive deep into either the left or right wooded pocket. (If he fades early and gets on the left side of the big cedar he has a lot of ground to make up to get back on track) If he fades with the terrain and ends up in the left pocket the trees line will prevent him from winding the bird and he will hunt the tree line/pocket and not be willing to come back out of the pocket (burning memory).
> View attachment 22601
> I know you said not to worry about anything but the mark , but id the bird was thrown R 2 L and the dog back sides the gun it puts him into the right pocket and the same scenario can happen, not willing to hunt out of the pocket.


Shawn

When I open your picture, it is too small to view well. My general response is that a bird at or near the tree line will be picked up by dogs who have no idea where they are going, and will run along the tree line until they get a bird 

Ted


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

General comments

1. I am doing this because people found the last few exercises useful and have asked for more
2. I want you to learn basic concepts of wind, terrain identification, and angles before you go any further.
3. I have given you instructions because I want to take this one step at a time.
4. I find it maddening how many people do not read the directions and go off and set up multiple marks.

Until you understand how to set up a single, you cannot set up multiples.
So follow directions.

In the future, if you do not follow directions, I will not comment on your diagram. This exercise takes a lot of my time. I am not interested in arguing with internet trolls. I am not interested in helping people who cannot follow directions.
If you want to learn, I want to help you learn. But, part of learning is following directions. 

So please follow directions

Ted


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

captainjack said:


> KM, we (most) don't use our hand to give the dog a line, we use it to confirm a line after the dog is looking where we want. But on both marks and blinds we line the dog up with our body position, cues, and commands before sending. Prolonged and intensive lining is considered a fault.


Thank you. Got you.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Glen, how do you as a judge determine whether or not the handler is "intensively" trying to line a dog or just can't get the dogs eyes to look where you want him to go?

Thanks




captainjack said:


> KM, we (most) don't use our hand to give the dog a line, we use it to confirm a line after the dog is looking where we want. But on both marks and blinds we line the dog up with our body position, cues, and commands before sending. Prolonged and intensive lining is considered a fault.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

As a Single mark maybe so but a mark like this in conjunction with others could get the dog to break down earlier than he should.

Wouldn't you tend to agree?

Thanks



Ted Shih said:


> Shawn
> 
> When I open your picture, it is too small to view well. My general response is that a bird at or near the tree line will be picked up by dogs who have no idea where they are going, and will run along the tree line until they get a bird
> 
> Ted


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Ted - you talk about 'lining' a dog for a mark? But surely you don't line a dog for a mark, he just marks it and runs to it on your release command? He will either break through obstacles in his path (thick cover, water etc) or if impenetrable go round and set himself back on his course.


.
KM
The brush pile in this exercise aside we do in fact teach dogs lining. Here, it is the dogs responsibility to mark fallen birds and later remember those falls. Dogs face 3 or 4 birds in a marking series where judges, as in this exercise, will place birds where dogs generally don't wish to go or where "factors" will influence a dog off his path to the bird. Marking tests are usually very difficult and dogs may run/swim upwards of 2000 yards to complete. 2 or 3 of the marks may have guns retire no longer a reference to the dog. While making retrieves #1, #2, #3 the dogs memory of bird #4, often the longest of all, likely has eroded some. So, when dog comes to heel with bird #3 and shows handler "yea boss I got it" handler may as you mention send dog straight away. However, here's where lining could come into play,(just one example). Previous dogs have been failing mark #4, a look down on your dogs eyes shows you something less than positive so you may "go to work" assisting the dogs memory adjusting their body/eyes towards the fall, sweet talking to them "yea, right there, good" etc and then sending them on. Basically we rely on a dogs Marking ability which is what normally wins but can call on other tools in our bag if needed.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Bird would be throw on the backside of the tree near the base. birds protected from "lining" also protected from winding bird left or right with the wind going away there should be a small scent cone down wind , open area on both side of the trees will be suction for some dogs to go long and depending on the look from the line some dogs may hunt short in front of the tree.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> As a Single mark maybe so but a mark like this in conjunction with others could get the dog to break down earlier than he should.
> 
> Wouldn't you tend to agree?
> 
> Thanks


Wade 

You seem to have a need to post simply for the purpose of posting. I have given instructions. 

Those instructions are to help people learn to construct marks. 

As usual, you have elected to ignore instructions. Mostly, I suppose because you like seeing your own posts. 

As I mentioned earlier, I am not going to argue with those who want to do as they please and ignore instructions.

So you are now on "ignore." 

Ted


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> Bird would be throw on the backside of the tree near the base. birds protected from "lining" also protected from winding bird left or right with the wind going away there should be a small scent cone down wind , open area on both side of the trees will be suction for some dogs to go long and depending on the look from the line some dogs may hunt short in front of the tree.
> 
> View attachment 22602


How do the terrain changes influence the path of the dog on the way to your bird?


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> Bird would be throw on the backside of the tree near the base. birds protected from "lining"


.
By rule dog must be afforded view of bird in the arc of throw and it's landing. Obscuring dogs view of fall, while routinely done, violates the spirit of the rules.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Why is it one can never ask a question Ted? Are you just so thin skinned? Believe it or not since you are the master of this domain I was truly looking for an honest answer. It was not my intent in any way to do what you proclaim my thinking was about. 




Ted Shih said:


> Wade
> 
> You seem to have a need to post simply for the purpose of posting. I have given instructions.
> 
> ...


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

As a play on Todd's mark #1 and Ted's interest in seeing dog get wet and dog's tendency to avoid/flare old falls I would place a short bird to fall in front of water further influencing/pushing dogs right on path to mark #1.

.


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> Shawn
> 
> When I open your picture, it is too small to view well. My general response is that a bird at or near the tree line will be picked up by dogs who have no idea where they are going, and will run along the tree line until they get a bird
> 
> Ted


I resized it. My thought on the bird placement was to put the bird someplace a dog would not want to go unless he truley marked the bird. If he didnt he would drive into 1 of the 2 pockets and set up camp. With he wind blowing straight out I'm hoping to have some scent coverage from the woods behind it and not carry it to the back of the pockets. I do see your point of dog running tree lines,and with that in mind if they dont hit the AOF the tree line pushes them farther off course and deep into the pockets.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Breck said:


> .
> By rule dog must be afforded view of bird in the arc of throw and it's landing. Obscuring dogs view of fall, while routinely done, violates the spirit of the rules.


Which rules are we playing by here Breck yours and AKC or Ted's


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Breck said:


> As a play on Todd's mark #1 and Ted's interest in seeing dog get wet and dog's tendency to avoid/flare old falls I would place a short bird to fall in front of water further influencing/pushing dogs right on path to mark #1.
> 
> .
> View attachment 22603



Breck 

Read instructions, post 69. We are not looking for interplay of marks. I simply want people to identify another single.

Ted


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Breck said:


> .
> By rule dog must be afforded view of bird in the arc of throw and it's landing. Obscuring dogs view of fall, while routinely done, violates the spirit of the rules.



For the moment, I only care about bird placement.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

shawninthesticks said:


> I resized it. My thought on the bird placement was to put the bird someplace a dog would not want to go unless he truley marked the bird. If he didnt he would drive into 1 of the 2 pockets and set up camp. With he wind blowing straight out I'm hoping to have some scent coverage from the woods behind it and not carry it to the back of the pockets. I do see your point of dog running tree lines,and with that in mind if they dont hit the AOF the tree line pushes them farther off course and deep into the pockets.
> View attachment 22606


​Ok. I still think approach is too easy


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> Which rules are we playing by here Breck yours and AKC or Ted's


​If you want me to comment, my rules control.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Please read instructions, post 69, before posting


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Breck I do believe is bird is throw from left to right dog will have good view of mark.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> Breck I do believe is bird is throw from left to right dog will have good view of mark.


I repeat. We are only looking at bird placement. I do not want to complicate things.


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

bird landing about where the feet are


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I'll try another one . With this mark I am assuming that the possibility is there for the dog to loose sight of the AOF when it enters the depression between the 2 yellow angle lines. If the dog squares the 1st angle line and rolls of the hill it puts him past the AOF when he comes up and by putting the bird in front of the tree it conceals the bird from being scented while the dog is deep.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

shawninthesticks said:


> I'll try another one . With this mark I am assuming that the possibility is there for the dog to loose sight of the AOF when it enters the depression between the 2 yellow angle lines. If the dog squares the 1st angle line and rolls of the hill it puts him past the AOF when he comes up and by putting the bird in front of the tree it conceals the bird from being scented while the dog is deep.
> View attachment 22608


​Ok. I understand your reasoning.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

​Reminder: Read post 69 for instructions.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> Which rules are we playing by here Breck yours and AKC or Ted's


.
AKC Field Trial Rules
Trial Procedure
8. On marked retrieves, a dog should be able to see
each bird in the air and as it falls, and the Guns shall be
so stationed as to be conspicuous to and easily identified ....


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

GRun said:


> For another mark, I went with a side-hill area, yellow diamond. A dog that holds a good line through terrain and cover changes is rewarded. A cheat to the right, may cause the dog to hang-up in the natural funnel (green oval) and cost some memory time if/when they drive the slope to the left.
> 
> View attachment 22599


This was the mark I had in mind. I *think* you would get answers on this mark. Like Ted said, I wouldn't use the word cheat in that scenario.


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Breck
> 
> Read instructions, post 69. We are not looking for interplay of marks. I simply want people to identify another single.
> 
> Ted


.
OK got it.
I'll stick with that bird placement and wait till later to justify etc.


----------



## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I like this mark too. It looks like there is also a ditch at the bottom of that hill with a shallow angle. If a dog squares it, he will be in great position to square the hill and go straight to the top and run around in the flat area.



MooseGooser said:


> Terrain influences dog to go left. cover change at tree. Once dog at bottom of valley, I believe they will want to square the hill and climb.My mark is positioned so as if the dog caves to the factors he will be lost. I want to see him fight that slope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I agree dogs will climb or fall on side hill.
> 
> Why would terrain influence dogs to the left?


From the picture,it looks as though there is a gentle slope to the left, right out of the gate, Its very gentle,but it is there,. Over distance, I would think that slope could influence inexperienced or lazy dogs to fade left. I also think that the small bush at the cover change where the first trees are, gives a dog a decision point as to how straight it runs to the mark. I believe most dogs because of the slopes left influence, will decide to stay left of that bush,maybe breakdown in the cover and fall more left because of terrain again. If dog does get through cover change, slope increases ,and I believe it influences the dog even more. When the dog finally gets to the hill, I believe the dogs will decide to square the hill, and climb, putting the dog even MORE left,and out in LA LA Land!

I also think the wind will have a slight left influence.


What do you think??


----------



## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Mooser Gooser, GRun
> 
> What do dogs do when faced with terrain changes? Does it matter if the dog approaches the terrain change squarely or at an angle? If an angle deflects a dog, is a hard angle or shallow angle more difficult for the dog?


I will show my inexperience right now! 
I would think a shallow angle to a cover change would make it more enticing for the dog to go around it or avoid it all together! If the line is square, directed straight at the cover change, I would think it invites the dog to go straight through it????????


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I will show my inexperience right now!
> I would think a shallow angle to a cover change would make it more enticing for the dog to go around it or avoid it all together! If the line is square, directed straight at the cover change, I would think it invites the dog to go straight through it????????



If there is an obstacle squarely in the path, a road, log, ditch, terrain change - dogs will tend to run straight. 

Obstacles at shallower angles tend to cause more deflection in dog path. So, if you want to deflect a dog, think about shallow angles


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok we have identified three possible marks. See diagram, yellow triangles indicate marks. Lines indicate possible dog paths. Come up with two more marks. Rules on post 69 apply.


----------



## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

Newbe here, is it normal to put a mark say right behind a muskrat hut as shown or any obstruction so the dog has to go around it? Sorry if it's off topic.


----------



## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Using the other half of this field.
Appears to be depressions and a mound enroute; wind off dog's right shoulder. 
Pointing the dog into treeline could backfire. Handler shouldn't try to outsmart this mark.
Dog that rolls away from mound/depression has a lot of field to get lost in until he SOBs.
Could play well with other marks once identified.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Any more marks in this field?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

25-ott-06 said:


> Newbe here, is it normal to put a mark say right behind a muskrat hut as shown or any obstruction so the dog has to go around it? Sorry if it's off topic.


There is an earlier discussion on this subject. Basically, you want to make it hard for a dog to go from point A to point B. The more factors that prevent a dog from getting from point A to point B, in a very general and gross manner of speaking, the more difficult the mark


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Using 2 of 3 marks, add #3 &#4
.


----------



## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

Don't know how to add stuff to a picture, as I'm not computer savvy, but I'll bit here. Try to utilize the 3 shadows on the right from the treeline. Mark behind the shadows.


----------



## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

Ted Shih said:


> Mooser Gooser, GRun
> 
> What do dogs do when faced with terrain changes? Does it matter if the dog approaches the terrain change squarely or at an angle? If an angle deflects a dog, is a hard angle or shallow angle more difficult for the dog?


Some thought on your questions:

A dog will tend to square-up a terrain change. The more square the approach, the less impact on the line. Abrupt changes seem to have less overall impact. Almost like they can re-correct and get back on line easier. Subtle changes, especially near the line, can put a dog way out of position.

Attached are a couple more potential marks in this set-up shown with orange diamonds. I chose the water mark on the left. It looks like it has long angle entry with an angle exit up a side hill. This one may be just a variation of the mark behind the brush pile.

A second one is deep right behind what looks like a hedge row. Might be too far, but dogs may be pulled to the gap in the hedge row to the left of a direct line to the mark.


----------



## JimB (Aug 31, 2012)

Here is my first try at any marks in this field. They are marked with orange M1 and M2 with possible lines run to them.

M1 looks to have a gradual slope to the left for the first half or so, a small gulley to square and the wind pushing slowly to the left all the way there. Getting pushed to the left with the wind, slope and squaring the gulley may put the dog to the left of the mark and cause them to hunt around in the flat no mans land behind it. Hitting the tree line before the mark may cause a dog to hunt along the tree line and not get deep enough. There are no major obstacles en-route for this mark, but the tree line may also act like a wall keeping some dogs in the field while others are drawn into it early. The one thing about putting a mark in this side of the field that I am not sure about is the position of the sun. The shadows along the right tree line looks like it may be into the dogs face which might make the mark harder to see...if so, this mark should not be used.

M2 appears to have a gradual r to l slope most of the way pushing the dog slowly right. Going to the right of the far tree may not allow the dog to wind the bird and hesitate to come back out during a hunt. The small bush half way makes the dog decide which side to take. Going to the right of it may cause them to stay too far right and not get back on line when combined with the far slope that they may want to square up to, staying right of the mark.


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Breck said:


> .
> KM
> The brush pile in this exercise aside we do in fact teach dogs lining. Here, it is the dogs responsibility to mark fallen birds and later remember those falls. Dogs face 3 or 4 birds in a marking series where judges, as in this exercise, will place birds where dogs generally don't wish to go or where "factors" will influence a dog off his path to the bird. Marking tests are usually very difficult and dogs may run/swim upwards of 2000 yards to complete. 2 or 3 of the marks may have guns retire no longer a reference to the dog. While making retrieves #1, #2, #3 the dogs memory of bird #4, often the longest of all, likely has eroded some. So, when dog comes to heel with bird #3 and shows handler "yea boss I got it" handler may as you mention send dog straight away. However, here's where lining could come into play,(just one example). Previous dogs have been failing mark #4, a look down on your dogs eyes shows you something less than positive so you may "go to work" assisting the dogs memory adjusting their body/eyes towards the fall, sweet talking to them "yea, right there, good" etc and then sending them on. Basically we rely on a dogs Marking ability which is what normally wins but can call on other tools in our bag if needed.


Yes, I appreciate exactly what you are saying in the case of multiple marks, and delayed/memory marks, but the OP was talking about one single mark in this instance, so that is why I was questioning about 'lining' the dog. Lining comes into play for multiple marks as you say. I do understand that.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Before we get into constructing marks on this diagram, let's begin by identifying features that make a mark difficult.
> When I look at a field, I am looking for:
> - Wind
> - Terrain
> ...


Wind should be superfluous and terrain if the dog has the mark.If it is a Mark you are after?.......Anything else is a find


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Wind should be superfluous and terrain if the dog has the mark.If it is a Mark you are after?.......Anything else is a find



Wind is never superfluous. It is the number 1 factor to be considered in setting up marks


----------



## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

polmaise said:


> Wind should be superfluous and terrain if the dog has the mark.If it is a Mark you are after?.......Anything else is a find



SOB="Stumble On Bird" when I'm judging. It's hard to describe; but, for me (like porn) you know it when you see it. After "X" amount of time if the dog hasn't come up with the bird, as an HRC judge, I'll tell the handler to "Put the dog on the bird." And then I have to judge down marking....................unless the bird fell in a gopher hole or something.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

kennel maiden said:


> Yes, I appreciate exactly what you are saying in the case of multiple marks, and delayed/memory marks, but the OP was talking about one single mark in this instance, so that is why I was questioning about 'lining' the dog. Lining comes into play for multiple marks as you say. I do understand that.


KM 

I think you are mistaken.

I believe that marking is primarily a natural ability, which can be enhanced through training.
I believe that lining is primarily a trained ability, although some dogs line very well without training.

If I am trying to evaluate marking, I want to minimize the impact of training on a dog's ability to find a bird. Note that I use the word "minimize" because training will always play some role in marking. 

You say that a handler cannot line a dog to a single. Or alternatively, there would be no need to line a bird to a single.
I disagree on both counts.

*First,* there are certainly handlers that could line a dog 300 yards to a bird that the dog never saw. 
IF
- the dog was highly trained
and
- the terrain; and
- the wind
did not impede the dogs ability to line

So, if I wanted to evaluate/judge/whatever a dog's ability to mark on a SINGLE, I would want to minimize the ability of a handler to line a dog to a bird - whether or not the dog saw the bird.
I would want to know that what I was viewing was primarily Marking - a natural ability and not lining - a trained ability.

*Second,* you seem to be operating on the assumption that lining would never be of any use on a Single. 

However, what if
- the dog was distracted so that it never saw the gun or fall
- the path to the bird involved many terrain changes where the gun was out of sight
in both circumstances, a dog that lined well, combined with a handler that could extract that trained ability from the dog - might do very well.

*Third*, if you judge enough, you will learn that the best marking dog in the world is often ineffectual when its handler is unable to properly line the dog for the bird - whether that be a single, double, triple, or quad.

Ted



Ted


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Wind is never superfluous. It is the number 1 factor to be considered in setting up marks


Wind is the deciding factor ,It should be superfluous with a mark !..
If I sent a dog to a shot seen bird (by the dog) and en route the wind and or scent of other shot game was present ,I would be none too happy,that the dog did not go straight to the mark !?
Not to labour a point or digress , send the dog if the dog has seen the mark it should go to the mark.It is a single Mark we are talking about ?
If the dog doesn't go to that single mark with what ever obstruction and or obstacle en route , then One should look at what and how the dog is trained/conditioned to go straight to that Mark?I may be missing something ?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GRun

In general, you want
- down wind marks
- with angle
- and terrain

My gut tells me (not helpful for you, I know) that
- your water bird needs more angle (farther to the left)
- your land bird is too easy to reach

What about a bird thrown so it lands on the right, next to the trees, with the opening on the left? See yellow triangle

I would expect some dogs to flare the trees and enter the gap to the left (see yellow line)

Ted


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

More singles or put a series together??


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Wind is the deciding factor ,It should be superfluous with a mark !..
> If I sent a dog to a shot seen bird (by the dog) and en route the wind and or scent of other shot game was present ,I would be none too happy,that the dog did not go straight to the mark !?
> Not to labour a point or digress , send the dog if the dog has seen the mark it should go to the mark.It is a single Mark we are talking about ?
> If the dog doesn't go to that single mark with what ever obstruction and or obstacle en route , then One should look at what and how the dog is trained/conditioned to go straight to that Mark?I may be missing something ?


I disagree. Wind is never superfluous.

First, of all, I believe that dogs mark with their eyes and their nose. 

To reduce the dog's ability to find a bird with its eyes alone - we want to throw the bird in cover. If we throw a bird in good cover, I guarantee that the dogs uses their noses to find the birds. And the direction of the wind determines when a dog's nose comes into play.

Where a dog scents a bird and what it does when it scents a bird tells me a great deal about its marking ability. When I judge dogs, I look for the manner in which they approach the Area of Fall (AOF) and when they establish their hunt (tail crack, seeking scent, etc.). Where a dog starts its hunt tells me where it thinks the bird is - and tells me the quality of its marking.

Second, I do not want to give away the AOF with cross wind marks. 

I have two derby dogs that I am running in competition. Most derbies have doubles, but we can concentrate on the go bird, which for all intents and purposes is a single.

Imagine a double, where the go bird was thrown from right to left (<) and the wind was blowing from left to right (>).

- Dog A went behind the gun and got the bird
- Dog B went in left of the bird and got the bird

For purposes of discussion, let's say that the path to the bird for both dogs was direct.

As a judge, 
I might GUESS that Dog B had a better mark (because the wind did not assist it) and that Dog B had a worse mark (because the wind helped it find the bird)
But, I wouldn't know. I would only be GUESSING. 
And it would be unfair for me to punish Dog B for backsiding the gun, because that has nothing to do with the quality of its marking

If I wanted to improve my ability to evaluate a dog's marking ability, I would put the bird downwind so that a dog that went too far right or left of the bird would never get scent. I would make it hard for the dog to find the AOF with only its nose.

Third, I have seen singles where the terrain was such that a dog could not go straight to the bird. 


Ted


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> Wind is never superfluous. It is the number 1 factor to be considered in setting up marks


We may be agreeing? 
Wind is the factor that separates the 'Single' marker from the one that gets the bird ?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Before we start putting marks together, I want to focus on flyer placement. 

First, I hate breaking birds. I think that they primarily test steadiness (a trained ability) and not marking (a natural ability). I don't want to get into any arguments about the merits of breaking birds. Since this is my party - we are not going to have any breaking birds - especially the flyer.

Second, flyers are by their very nature, variable. So put the flyer in an area where you can live with varied falls.

Third, if you are going to use a flyer effectively, it needs to be close enough (no more than 250 yards out) for the dogs to recognize the bird as a flyer.

Fourth, if you have good guns, throwers and birds, you want to have them ride the birds out.

Dogs tend to hunt around guns. Alternatively, they hunt where they expect a hand thrown bird to land. So if you can put a flyer farther out than that, you are going to learn more about the dogs' ability to mark

So here is a clean diagram.

Set up some flyers

Ted


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

polmaise said:


> We may be agreeing?
> Wind is the factor that separates the 'Single' marker from the one that gets the bird ?


​I don't know what you mean


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)




----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

With the gun station being higher in elevation you can let the flyer ride more and gain distance from the GS. The cedar tree makes the dog make a decision and if he decides to hunt the GS it puts him on top the hill ( and likely hunting behind the GS ) If he decides to go left and roll hard off the close hill he could end up in no mans land on the left side of the flyer and ride the ditch line past the AOF


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Are y'all throwing these flyers in or is it hard to show the arc?


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Mine is meant to be a Flat throw,not in and land behind the cedar aways.


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> Are y'all throwing these flyers in or is it hard to show the arc?



Can't say as of right now, will disclose when given the OK


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


>



Why not reverse the direction and reward - instead of punish - the dog who takes water on the way to the bird?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

shawninthesticks said:


> With the gun station being higher in elevation you can let the flyer ride more and gain distance from the GS. The cedar tree makes the dog make a decision and if he decides to hunt the GS it puts him on top the hill ( and likely hunting behind the GS ) If he decides to go left and roll hard off the close hill he could end up in no mans land on the left side of the flyer and ride the ditch line past the AOF
> View attachment 22628


 
Think about how to make it more attractive to run to the guns and stay there


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Flip the GS to the other side in the ditch ( which gives an easy path to travel ) while keeping the AOF the same ?


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> Why not reverse the direction and reward - instead of punish - the dog who takes water on the way to the bird?


Because that would not work with the placement of my other birds. If getting in the water is important then throw the bird in line with the water, if you want the line to the bird to be dry then throw away from the water, either way it is still a mark and the dog has to remember it. Right??


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Because that would not work with the placement of my other birds. If getting in the water is important then throw the bird in line with the water, if you want the line to the bird to be dry then throw away from the water, either way it is still a mark and the dog has to remember it. Right??


First, I don't care about other marks

Second, I don't like throwing a bird away from water - as you are

Third, just because a dog has to remember where a bird is doesn't make it a good one.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Shawn

If you wanted to make it easy for the dogs to run to the guns and stay near them, then put the gun station in the valley and shoot out of it

Ted


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ted,
I can remember asking questions to my mentor back then and be on his ignore list, which cause frustration on my part.
I didn’t question it and ask guidance from others in our group who were graciously to tell me of my shortcoming. 
I thank them and understood the concept. 
There are rules in all endeavors, but one needs to understand in their mind set what they are and some take it better than others. 
I find that there are those that will take a risk in what they believe they understood and look forward to input be it good or negative but ,hopefully, to their advantage in so that they will ask more questions. 
My mentor was not that, but I believe you are.
We all were nebs at one time and we all are still learning. 
That will endure our whole life.
Just saying….
I guess it depends on how much patience we have in those....


----------



## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

Ted that's what I ment in post #128.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BJ 

Like any educational endeavor
- There are people who want to learn
- There are people who want to show how bright they are
- There are people who want to be the class clown

I am only interested in the first group. As for those in groups 2 and 3, they are unnecessary brain damage - and to be honest, make me wonder why I bother with these threads at all.

I have established Rules for the following reasons:
1. I want this thread to be educational. So that means we crawl before we walk, and we walk before we run. This appears to be testing the patience of some.

2. I don't want to deal with groups 2/3 above. So I tell people what my expectations are. If they don't like them, they don't have to participate. If they participate, but insist on testing the rules, I put them on "ignore". You have to look at their nonsense, but I don't. 

3. This thread is not for someone to show off what a great Open triple or quad they can set up - although we may get there before the end. Rather this thread is to show people like you what to look for in a field, so you can practice. And when you do this enough with discipline, things will start to come naturally to you

4. I want you - and others like you - to see that you can set three nice marks in a field - without worrying about interaction between marks - and find that you have a very nice test. (My two favorite tests at the 2013 National Am in Mondovi were series 5 and series 7 - both wide open triples with only one gun retired). 

In fact, I prefer to simply set up three marks in a field. 
However, there are those who believe that marks must play off of one another (and many of them seem to populate this thread). 
But, I want to show you that is not always necessary

Ted


----------



## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> BJ
> 
> Like any educational endeavor
> - There are people who want to learn
> ...


Sounds good.


----------



## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

I like a flyer on the left going left, ridden well out on the side hill, maybe landing slightly out of the picture. This area seems to make good use of the water and terrain with angle entry, angle exit, and up/out to the bird. Placing guns up the hill still seems to leave room for a mark behind the brush pile.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GRun said:


> I like a flyer on the left going left, ridden well out on the side hill, maybe landing slightly out of the picture. This area seems to make good use of the water and terrain with angle entry, angle exit, and up/out to the bird. Placing guns up the hill still seems to leave room for a mark behind the brush pile.
> 
> View attachment 22640


I think a good mark requires a dog to make decisions 

Your mark is pretty black and white. Get in the water and stay in the water. 
If you move your guns to the right, so that the bird lands at the left edge of the brush pile, or maybe a little to the right of the left edge of the stick pile, the dogs can go right, left or short.
More decisions
More chances for error
More information to evaluate

Ted


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted, could you expand on the logic of this statement?



Ted Shih said:


> Why not reverse the direction and reward - instead of punish - the dog who takes water on the way to the bird?


----------



## GRun (Oct 9, 2013)

Ted Shih said:


> I think a good mark requires a dog to make decisions
> 
> Your mark is pretty black and white. Get in the water and stay in the water.
> If you move your guns to the right, so that the bird lands at the left edge of the brush pile, or maybe a little to the right of the left edge of the stick pile, the dogs can go right, left or short.
> ...


Thanks Ted. I see what you are saying. My understanding of marking concepts are more geared to the level I am at. It is helpful to learn about the thought process at the AA level. Right now, my truck is packed and I am headed out to the first derby with my pup.

Question: For an AA quad or triple, do you try to pack as many factors and challenges to every bird, or do you keep a bird more straight forward, knowing that you have 1 or 2 difficult birds in the mix. Probably depends on what you need out of a particular series or the available land.

Thanks again


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GRun said:


> Thanks Ted. I see what you are saying. My understanding of marking concepts are more geared to the level I am at. It is helpful to learn about the thought process at the AA level. Right now, my truck is packed and I am headed out to the first derby with my pup.
> 
> Question: For an AA quad or triple, do you try to pack as many factors and challenges to every bird, or do you keep a bird more straight forward, knowing that you have 1 or 2 difficult birds in the mix. Probably depends on what you need out of a particular series or the available land.
> 
> Thanks again


The purpose of this thread is to give people a structure for looking at a field and identifying marks. If you use it with discipline, over time, you will find that you are going through the analysis subconsciously. I have a good friend, Terry Rotschafer. We have judged together three times. On each occasion, once the club member showed us the grounds, we almost simultaneously said "What about a bird over ____?" The same thing happened when I judged with another friend, Robbie Bickley. Once you have trained yourself to think about wind, terrain, distance, angles, etc, you start to do it automatically.

I don't want to get into doubles, triples, interactions, concepts, etc. yet. 

I want everyone to have good basics. 

I want everyone to understand what the elements of a good mark are.

If you understand that a good mark requires that a dog make a number of decisions, then you will understand when I say that the best dogs in competition are those who can consistently make good decisions.

Ted


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

F right to left no bird potential is low no direct path to bird


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> View attachment 22642
> 
> 
> F right to left no bird potential is low no direct path to bird


Are you inviting dogs to backside the guns? Do you want to do so?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

GRun said:


> Thanks Ted. I see what you are saying. My understanding of marking concepts are more geared to the level I am at. It is helpful to learn about the thought process at the AA level. Right now, my truck is packed and I am headed out to the first derby with my pup.
> 
> Question: For an AA quad or triple, do you try to pack as many factors and challenges to every bird, or do you keep a bird more straight forward, knowing that you have 1 or 2 difficult birds in the mix. Probably depends on what you need out of a particular series or the available land.
> 
> Thanks again



I don't think I answered your question well. Make a mark harder by adding factors, easier by subtracting them. For your dogs, find the balance between success and failure that promotes learning. As for setting up a test for the Open, that comes much later. I think I made a mistake by discussing Open marks, or even Derby marks, before people understood how to construct marks.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Ted Shih said:


> Are you inviting dogs to backside the guns? Do you want to do so?


No I'm challenging them to fight the factors. the good ones will and that's what I'm looking for here correct ????


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> No I'm challenging them to fight the factors. the good ones will and that's what I'm looking for here correct ????


 
It feels to me as though you are inviting them to cheat, which bothers me


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Using the other half of this field.
> Appears to be depressions and a mound enroute; wind off dog's right shoulder.
> Pointing the dog into treeline could backfire. Handler shouldn't try to outsmart this mark.
> Dog that rolls away from mound/depression has a lot of field to get lost in until he SOBs.
> ...


I want to use this location for a flyer. Shot left to right with a slight angle back. Throw it from the left to right. Gunners about 15-20 yards to the right of the tree that appears to be some sort of conifer. Yes, this is doable (The distance of the throw.) as I'd have someone like John Russell out there.

If someone could show that, that would be much appreciated.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have had a number of PM which have asked questions along the following lines

1) Why not consider the interaction of marks
2) Don't you need play between marks to make them harder

First, as I have mentioned before, I want people to understand the basics of mark construction before we discuss more advanced topics. I want those of you who are students of the sport to have solid fundamentals.

Second, I believe that the tighter the marks (and thus, the greater the degree of interplay between marks), the more you emphasize trained abilities (going straight) and handling - and correspondingly, the more you de-emphasize marking (natural ability)

Third, given the proper terrain, I believe that three wide open marks are more than sufficient to do the job

When I am judging, I find a good place to set up camp
- Wind good
- Lighting good
- Traffic good
And I start looking for marks

Unless I am with someone I know well like Terry or Robbie, I prefer to be left alone. I like sitting down in a good spot and just thinking about marks. When I begin, I do not think about interaction. I begin by being open to anything and seeing what arises.

Then some marks will jump out at me, and I will start building a test. 

But, it all begins by finding good individual marks

Ted


----------



## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> , I prefer to be left alone.


What does your co judge do at this time?


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> What does your co judge do at this time?



Collecting his or her thoughts on possible marks that we can discuss after about 10 minutes of reflection


----------



## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> *What does your co judge do at this time?*


Begins constructing the cocktails. ;-)

Actually, I like doing the same thing. Look at it thru my eyes, then blend ideas.


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

left to right hopefully have some good guns and allow bird to ride to fall area. two big opening deep inviting dogs long.


----------



## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> left to right hopefully have some good guns and allow bird to ride to fall area. two big opening deep inviting dogs long.
> 
> View attachment 22644


I have read thru the whole thread and find it very interesting. I need to learn this stuff. I like the quoted flyer mark, if the dog does not have a strong mark in its mind then it may be attracted to the presence of the gun and possibly square up the hill behind. Get deep to the guns but not be able to wind the bird, due to wind direction. I think the guns and the terrain may pull the dog to the left and it ends up in "no mans land".
Ok let me have it.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Would this be considered a "good" obstacle?



Todd Caswell said:


> Ted what is the obstacle I circled in green? Is it a hazard if the dog were to choose to go over or through it?


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Wade said:


> Would this be considered a "good" obstacle?


For the sake of this exercise, it has been deemed safe and a good obstacle. This first mark selected in this exercise was deep of and behind this obstacle.


----------



## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> It feels to me as though you are inviting them to cheat, which bothers me


Ted, could you share or expound on your thoughts on this? We see the cheat invited a lot. We also see dogs eliminated because they may cheat, even though they may show a very good mark.

My thoughts have been that I won't drop a dog that cheats if it shows a good mark. And, I try to set up a mark, so that if a dog does cheat, it is difficult to recover and get to the mark. 

I'm interested in your views on this.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Thank You Glen. That is why I asked the question. The more obstacles the tougher the mark?




captainjack said:


> Ted, could you share or expound on your thoughts on this? We see the cheat invited a lot. We also see dogs eliminated because they may cheat, even though they may show a very good mark.
> 
> My thoughts have been that I won't drop a dog that cheats if it shows a good mark. And, I try to set up a mark, so that if a dog does cheat, it is difficult to recover and get to the mark.
> 
> I'm interested in your views on this.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Final Flight Retrievers said:


> left to right hopefully have some good guns and allow bird to ride to fall area. two big opening deep inviting dogs long.
> 
> View attachment 22644



I think this works. 
1. Dogs tend to run to guns
2. The terrain falls off from right to left, pulling the dogs into the guns


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

NateB said:


> I have read thru the whole thread and find it very interesting. I need to learn this stuff. I like the quoted flyer mark, if the dog does not have a strong mark in its mind then it may be attracted to the presence of the gun and possibly square up the hill behind. Get deep to the guns but not be able to wind the bird, due to wind direction. I think the guns and the terrain may pull the dog to the left and it ends up in "no mans land".
> Ok let me have it.


See post 152. I think several dogs will fall down the hill to the guns then set up camp around them, and take their time climbing up to the bird. When a gun is up, the dogs tend to stick around, so I don't see many dogs blowing up and out


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Ted, could you share or expound on your thoughts on this? We see the cheat invited a lot. We also see dogs eliminated because they may cheat, even though they may show a very good mark.
> 
> My thoughts have been that I won't drop a dog that cheats if it shows a good mark. And, I try to set up a mark, so that if a dog does cheat, it is difficult to recover and get to the mark.
> 
> I'm interested in your views on this.




I judge a dog's mark, not its line. 

I have two derby dogs and so I have been running a number of derbies. 

I love watching the little monsters run, but the judging drives me crazy. 

I see the judges set up cheating tests, then wonder why the little guys run around the water - and punish the ones that do even if they have better marks than the dogs that take water.

I see the judges punish dogs with perfectly good marks because they back side a gun.

There is way too much emphasis on the quality of the line rather than the quality of the mark. 

Here is a true story.

I was running two litter mates FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie (Zowie) and FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker Power (Ace).

Zowie took a banana path to the AOF. And had since he was young. It was the way he operated out of the womb.
Ace usually ran straight and true to the AOF.

There was a very hard triple in the mountains. Lots of terrain and sage brush.

Zowie took a banana path to the big retired bird, but stepped on it.
Ace ran right to the AOF, but set up a hunt in the area.

A friend comes up to me and says "Too bad about Zowie, but Ace looked spectacular" 
Because he was evaluating the line, not the mark. Zowie had the better mark.

The next series was a poison bird blind. Ace and Zowie had similar work. Zowie got dropped.
The judges agreed with my friend.

They were judging the quality of the line, not the quality of the mark.

Ted


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Originally Posted by Final Flight Retrievers View Post 

No I'm challenging them to fight the factors. the good ones will and that's what I'm looking for here correct ????


Ted Shih said:


> It feels to me as though you are inviting them to cheat, which bothers me


Would there be a reason we as judges should be concerned if we "are inviting them to cheat" with a set of all age marks? Some will most certainly cheat, some will most certainly not. The aspect of this mark and with Todd's that would concern me the most is the variable that this would be a flyer which brings into the mark inconsistent landing spots.


----------



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Ok. Here we go. 

I attach a diagram that shows three marks 1, 2, and three from left to right.

*First,* all of the birds shown on the diagram are birds that we placed when we were simply identifying singles. And we identified each of those singles as being a good mark.

*Second*, the birds do not really interact with one another. Before someone gets their feathers ruffled, anytime you put multiple birds in a field there is some interaction. 
But, we have not set up any concept involving tight lines, such as

- Texas/California double
- Flower pot 
- Momma/Poppa
- Inline triple

None of our birds relies upon interaction with another bird to be effective. Each bird has its own merits.

We went to our field and picked out three birds.

*Third,* the flyer self selected its positioning.

a) Birds 1/2 must fall in a specified area (a flyer would be too variable for 1/2)
b) We can let the birds ride a long way in position 3
c) We are not shooting at anyone in position 3

*Fourth,* you can play with the marks to meet your needs

For example
a) Derby: shoot 1, then 3
b) Qual: shoot 1, 2, 3 - no one retires
c) Am: shoot 1, 2, 3, - retire 1, 2 or both
d) Open: shoot 1, 2, 3, retire 1 and 2.

*Finally*, the point of this lesson is this: 

When you are just starting at this, when you get to a field, make sure that you are applying discipline and structure to your process

First, set up where the wind will be at your back (if at all possible) and the sun will not prevent the dogs from seeing the birds

Second, identify
- terrain changes
- obstacles

Third, look for shallow angles that create deflection

Fourth, try to use your factors in a way where they work together in concert

Fifth, find marks

Sixth, go play


----------

