# How crucial is Swim-by?? Thoughts



## magouyrk352 (Feb 28, 2015)

After training a dog on land to the best of my ability, I got to Swim-by and could not find anywhere to do it so I skipped it and moved on. As training progressed, I could see little instances where completion of Swim-by would of helped. To remedy the situation, I sent the dog to a trainer for a month to get Swim-by taught to him and I will never skip it again. 

Ive seen on RTF where a gentlemen has never done Swim-by for any of his dogs, so my question is: Are there certain training programs that could warrant not doing Swim-by vs. other training programs? Is Swim-by something that needs to be done no matter what training program you are following?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I think you answered your own question. IMO I believe it is crucial. Swimby teaches handling in the water & gives you the basics to teach a dog not to cheat and go straight. I like to revisit it in the spring. There are however many way to train your dog. Whatever works best for you is the route to follow. If you are new as I was when I started DVDs & a program helped me understand. There is an order to their presentation that is helpful to the novice & you can refer back to them again & again. IMO


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Retrievers online.com

Full description


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## Tom. P. (Oct 20, 2010)

The way I see it. If you can handle your dog in the water with a bumper in mouth as swimby teaches. You and your dog have developed a solid base an trust to work as a team. Suddenly that money cast at a test or trial doesn't look so intimidating to your dog or you!
Swimby?
Yes. Always


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I think you answered your own question. IMO I believe it is crucial. Swimby teaches handling in the water & gives you the basics to teach a dog not to cheat and go straight. I like to revisit it in the spring. There are however many way to train your dog. Whatever works best for you is the route to follow. If you are new as I was when I started DVDs & a program helped me understand. There is an order to their presentation that is helpful to the novice & you can refer back to them again & again. IMO


+1 ..and it separates the difference between UK and USA . Other parts of the process should not be skipped either .


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm going to sound like an ass and I don't mean to but,,,
some guy _on the internet_ has never done Swim-by for any of his dogs, so you're asking if all the popular retriever training books & videos, successful professional and amateur trainers, and the other 99% of the retriever training world (including yourself) could be misguided? 

Probably.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)




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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

It's critical. I don't think most trainers understand that or spend the time to get it right.


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## FieldLab (Aug 5, 2011)

Swim by is tough, I had to send my pup to a pro to complete it properly from a hunting perspective it comes in handy on the return avoiding obstacles and decoy lines took me a couple of years to full understand it


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## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

One of our dogs did not go through swim by. Has left us with a tool belt with no tools and the lack of it has been apparent at a hunt test or two.

I can train with different people way more knowledgeable than me and pretty much guarantee that the common thing I hear is "you didn't do swim by now did you". 

Won't make that mistake again!


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Watch Danny Farmer during training give the returning dog (while another is heading out) 1 silent over when 10yds from the bank and then parallel 75yds down the shore before getting out and your swim-by light bulb will glow.


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## ad18 (Aug 23, 2006)

Guess I will have to be the one thats "different". I have 2 dogs and both have their HRCH titles. One has 35 CKC Master passes and has passed the CKC National Master twice. Neither dog has done swim by. I never did formal swim by because I never had access to a proper swim by pond. Both swim straight water blinds and handle as required on both land and water. So to say it is mandatory, no, should it be done, yes.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

It is surely critical. And yes... you always do the training program in order. Never jump ahead. 

Except when you're training in dust. Big drought out here folks. A 4 year drought. We might have access on rare occasions to little bits of water that might be deep enough to swim in, might not, and you never know how far down the water level has gotten, or how steep the sides. 

Running land in record heat (yes, we begin as early as possible and keep things short, etc. etc.) But we just can't put the dogs in the kennel and bring them out when the water returns (if it ever does). We have to keep training as best we can.


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## Captzig (Jun 14, 2013)

Is it ever too late to begin swim -by? I hope not since I am just starting at 22 months... She handles no different in land or water so far as I can tell. She has completed SH and we hope to begin MH this fall. I definitely want a solid swim-by before attempting more advanced water tests. 

I am using the Hillman Water fundamentals and am struggling to find a decent swim-by pond.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Swim Bye is like your "T" work or your "Baseball" work in the water REQUIRED. Don't get so intimidated by the technical structure of the pond, while a rectangular pond is best any long levee will get you started.
The basic is control of your dog in the water with the bumber. Do the same on land. In and Out and Over. Repeat it every year as a refresher as you should do with Force Fetch.
Repitition is the Mother of Retention


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

It's a little deeper than that.
Read retrievers online website by one of the top am trainers around.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Tom. P. said:


> The way I see it. If you can handle your dog in the water with a bumper in mouth as swimby teaches. You and your dog have developed a solid base an trust to work as a team. Suddenly that money cast at a test or trial doesn't look so intimidating to your dog or you!
> Swimby?
> Yes. Always


I agree.
Things are done for a reason and having a dog that trusts you makes the experience enjoyable. 
My penny worth.


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## Dan Storts (Apr 19, 2011)

Shows your dog that land is a safe place to be.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Dan Storts said:


> Shows your dog that land is a safe place to be.


Swim-by does this?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Link to article TD referred to...
http://www.retrieversonline.com/swimby.htm


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Oh do I like the type two stuff, because at one time we were all there.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

And where are you, now?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

captainjack said:


> And where are you now?


Don't know.
Guess you need to talk to Wayne.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I guess, although it would be more clear if you just quoted the post of the rtfer that you think doesn't know they don't know. But that wouldn't be BJ.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Dan Storts said:


> Shows your dog that WATER is a safe place to be.


Fixed it for ya!!


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

The premise of the OPs question is not unique to retriever training. Given the fact there are many ways to train plus the variable of skills in trainers, the question of what and how to train is impossible to simplify. 

The necessity for swim-by (or any other teaching sequence) is a good example. The simplest approach for a questioning mind is to first ask, "What do the majority of individuals I will be working with do?" and then focus on learning in that perspective. Deciding whether to do something (or not) doesn't work very well if exceptions get in the way.....and there will ALWAYS be different opinions. 

Take this thread for example. The vast majority stated "swim by" is important. Mostly because "like minds" tend to congregate (RTF)....even though there is a wide range in skill levels, experience and results. The hangup is some unknown person doesn't use it. My initial reaction was the OP is searching for a reason to NOT do something from those that mostly do.....which does not make a lot of sense. 

I have a few reasons for doing swim-by and have done so with all my dogs for the last fifteen years. My newest pup has single T (land expectations/skills) nearly "down pat" and will soon be doing swim-by (water expectations). Land and water are different.









Swim-by is necessary (for me)....kind of like breathing.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

magouyrk352 said:


> After training a dog on land to the best of my ability, *I got to Swim-by and could not find anywhere to do it so I skipped it and moved on. * As training progressed, I could see little instances where completion of Swim-by would of helped. To remedy the situation, I sent the dog to a trainer for a month to get Swim-by taught to him and I will never skip it again.
> 
> Ive seen on RTF where a gentlemen has never done Swim-by for any of his dogs, so my question is: Are there certain training programs that could warrant not doing Swim-by vs. other training programs? Is Swim-by something that needs to be done no matter what training program you are following?


It appears the reason the op didn't do swim by may be due to lack of suitable swim by pond. If you knew that you could do swim by on any pond with a relatively square corner, would you be asking the question? A perfectly rectangular swim-by pond is ideal, but folks do swim- by all the time with less than ideal ponds.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)




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## magouyrk352 (Feb 28, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your input on this topic. Living in Midland,Tx doesn't offer much of an opportunity to train in water. Now that I have spent the money on getting my dog Swim-by trained, without water to followup on the training, will it be as effective or have I just waisted my money?


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Dan Storts said:


> Shows your dog that land is a safe place to be.


One important skill to teach is treading water...watch how Lardy does it in TRT...

"goooood!"


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

magouyrk352 said:


> Thanks everyone for your input on this topic. Living in Midland,Tx doesn't offer much of an opportunity to train in water. Now that I have spent the money on getting my dog Swim-by trained, without water to followup on the training, will it be as effective or have I just waisted my money?


I don't follow?

Are you saying you have no swimming water in Midland?

If you have swimming water, your dog will benefit, if you don't, then you won't need the skill anyway.


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## magouyrk352 (Feb 28, 2015)

captainjack said:


> I don't follow?
> 
> Are you saying you have no swimming water in Midland?
> 
> If you have swimming water, your dog will benefit, if you don't, then you won't need the skill anyway.



That was a little confusing, let me try again. I have one small pond in Midland that I can take him to but its a public pond and very small so its not very realistic for MH level training. I have a hunting lease two hours away, which is where I hunt that has some good water setups for training but because it is so far away I can only go every other weekend. My need for swim-by comes into play mainly for hunt test. Im concerned that due to my lack of ability to train in water, I may have waisted the money getting him trained on swim-by. Does this help?


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## lorneparker1 (Mar 22, 2015)

2 hours isn't that far. Up at 5am, training at 7. Train till 9, back home for 11 and the wife is out of bed.


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## Elaine Mitchell (Jun 4, 2009)

magouyrk352 said:


> That was a little confusing, let me try again. I have one small pond in Midland that I can take him to but its a public pond and very small so its not very realistic for MH level training. I have a hunting lease two hours away, which is where I hunt that has some good water setups for training but because it is so far away I can only go every other weekend. My need for swim-by comes into play mainly for hunt test. Im concerned that due to my lack of ability to train in water, I may have waisted the money getting him trained on swim-by. Does this help?


If the dog learned a skill then I'd consider it money well spent. My question would be did you spend enough? Is swim by complete? If so, he's not going to forget it just because he doesn't practice it every day.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

magouyrk352 said:


> That was a little confusing, let me try again. I have one small pond in Midland that I can take him to but its a public pond and very small so its not very realistic for MH level training. I have a hunting lease two hours away, which is where I hunt that has some good water setups for training but because it is so far away I can only go every other weekend. My need for swim-by comes into play mainly for hunt test. Im concerned that due to my lack of ability to train in water, I may have waisted the money getting him trained on swim-by. Does this help?


It's only a waste of money if you strictly dove or upland hunt where there is no water. 

There are no swim by tests. It's just a drill to help the dog learn about dealing with water (see Dennis Voigt's article).

I will say that if you never train on water (not doing swim by, just training), you'll have a very difficult time passing a test.


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## C.Ellegood (Jun 14, 2015)

Chris Akins way doesn't require a swim by type pond. His isn't as detailed to the dog but the dog learns to handle in water. It'll help


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## fuchsr (Aug 10, 2008)

If availability of swim-by pond is an issue, it might be worth checking out Bill Hillmann's Water Fundamental DVD. What struck me was that the way he teaches swim by doesn't require the traditional rectangular/square-ish pond.


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## Captzig (Jun 14, 2013)

I think Bill Hillman has all 3 parts of the swim-by on his YouTube channel free to view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8keYbuKXGjM


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I wonder sometimes if 'zinky doopermans' way and his range of dvd's are are just not marketed properly ?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

polmaise said:


> I wonder sometimes if 'zinky doopermans' way and his range of dvd's are are just not marketed properly ?


Is "zinky" somebody we should know about? Am I missing something?


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