# For Better Or Worse - Westminster Lab Show



## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=0#videoid=217241


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

pitiful, just pitiful


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Bless their hearts and shame on me, but those dogs left me wondering if maybe heavy women shouldn't wear yellow dresses, instead of black, to make themselves look thinner. 

And that's really not fair. I don't buy into the foolishness than show or pet breeding has ever ruined a breed for hunting, only lack of interest in breeding them for hunting can do that. And those dogs have accomplished something mighty special within their sphere just by getting there.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I just can't get excited one way or the other anymore.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

They all look like they weigh 500 pounds! Why do they like them so fat? I don't get it.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

I could certainly see some Newfoundland ancestry in some of them...


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Doesnt anybody notice that labs, the most popular breed in the country, (I am assuming it is still #1) never ever gets close to the "best in show" round anymore? They don't even move well, and I guess its because of all the weight, but they just don't have any "spark" to catch the eye.


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## Richard Reese (Apr 26, 2006)

They are beautiful dogs and have accomplished a lot in their part of the labrador retriever breed. To put them down becuase one does not like their looks is wrong. I personally like the american breed, however, I can appreciate their accomplshments and respect their rights to have and do what one pleases.


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## cgoeson (Jan 22, 2008)

I can't believe that's even the same breed of dog as mine. How long do you think one of those behemouths could last hunting pheasants in heavy cover? Notice how they all start panting while they do a slow trot through the ring... I don't understand how judges can think that a hunting breed should look like that.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Steve Hester said:


> pitiful, just pitiful


Hey!!! I didn't think they looked that bad. About 7 years ago they looked wayyyy worse. They were huge and all needed oxygen to get around the ring.

At least 1/2 of them had a waist and some obvious muscle tone. Actually I was pleasantly surprised how moderate they were. Maybe tastes are changing.

Mary,

All conformation animals are heavy. Why I don't know but they are. We have a beautiful facility across the street that has conformation quarter horses. They're beautiful but look like finished steers.

I appreciate conformation animals for what they are. Through the local lab club I've come to like them quite well. They do have alot going for them as far as temperment, looks and health. When not showing the majority of owners take the weight off of them and use them like the rest of us. As companion/gun dogs. Try to keep an open mind. It might not be what you like but alot of people do like them. Why is it that everyone that calls us looking for a puppy wants a blockier dog and not something that looks like a black greyhound?

Angie


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

All I got to say is thank god Victoria Secret doesn't have the same philosophy...

/Paul


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Yeeeehaaa a hunting dog won. The winner is also close to home. I do wonder though if the Beagle has the same division with regards to field vs. show. It seems to be kind of bulky from the hunting beagle I see. I wonder how many other breeds suffer from the same divide?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Steve Amrein said:


> Yeeeehaaa a hunting dog won. The winner is also close to home. I do wonder though if the Beagle has the same division with regards to field vs. show. It seems to be kind of bulky from the hunting beagle I see. I wonder how many other breeds suffer from the same divide?



They all do. Once they're taken out of miscellaneous and are a recognized breed, the division starts.

Angie


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> All I got to say is thank god Victoria Secret doesn't have the same philosophy...
> 
> /Paul


Would that be about the dogs or their handlers..... Sorry,,,, couldn't help myself.

Angie


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## meat hunter (Oct 4, 2007)

No wonder the show is sponsored by dog food companies! Seriously though there has to be health issues related to weight and if there going up and down in weight like Angie suggests that is even worse. Ed


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Angie B said:


> Hey!!! I didn't think they looked that bad. About 7 years ago they looked wayyyy worse. They were huge and all needed oxygen to get around the ring.
> 
> At least 1/2 of them had a waist and some obvious muscle tone. Actually I was pleasantly surprised how moderate they were. Maybe tastes are changing.
> 
> ...


I get the blocky head and all of that. They would all be so beautiful if they weren't so chubby. When they are feeling down the dogs legs, how can they feel muscle tone and all of that if it is covered. Or maybe that isn't what they are looking for??? I had an old fat Bullmastiff and these dogs bodies looked the same. 

At the same time I don't like a super skinny dog either. I have had people tell me that Darla is overweight, when I can feel how hard her muscles and she is build sturdy. I guess it is all in a persons perspective...


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Hey!!! I didn't think they looked that bad. About 7 years ago they looked wayyyy worse. They were huge and all needed oxygen to get around the ring.
> 
> At least 1/2 of them had a waist and some obvious muscle tone. Actually I was pleasantly surprised how moderate they were. Maybe tastes are changing. Angie


Like you, Angie, I noticed a slight shift toward the center in this year's Lab show. Unfortunately, both field-bred and show-bred have a long way to go before they meet in the middle. I think both factions too often forget the first sentence in the breed standard. "The Labrador Retriever is a strongly built, medium-sized, short-coupled, dog possessing a sound, athletic, well-balanced conformation that enables it to function as a retrieving gun dog; the substance and soundness to hunt waterfowl or upland game for long hours under difficult conditions; the character and quality to win in the show ring; and the temperament to be a family companion."


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

meat hunter said:


> No wonder the show is sponsored by dog food companies! Seriously though there has to be health issues related to weight and if there going up and down in weight like Angie suggests that is even worse. Ed


Your right and I'm constantly surprised how few issues they have due to the excess weight. The weight stays on while they're showing then it usually comes off. The dog that I'm training now that has his CH got that title while in training shape. I flat out refused to pork him up while in training. Isn't healthy and can be dangerous. I did keep him on the heavy side but that's it. Another client pretty much demanded that I keep the weight on while getting a SH on her dog and I pretty much told her to take the dog home. She stayd, got her title and was kept in athletic shape.

Angie


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Down East Labs 217 said:


> They are beautiful dogs and have accomplished a lot in their part of the labrador retriever breed. To put them down becuase one does not like their looks is wrong. I personally like the american breed, however, I can appreciate their accomplshments and respect their rights to have and do what one pleases.



Not to be rude , but when did eating to the point of having rolls of fat on a dogs back and neck serve as an accomplisment torward anything other than heart problems ? Not one of those dogs could even trot around the ring w/o panting like they had just finished a 300 yd retrieve. No matter what thet species, when body parts move, that aren't suppose to move when waking trotting, someone, or something is carrying excess baggage.


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

I found watching the show pretty informative. The commentators even discussed why the Lab - the most popular dog in America - does not win at Big shows; and why the Terrier breeds tend to do very well at big shows. They said that terriers tend to have that personality that sparks - hey look at me! - that does well in big shows.

I have got to think that the heavy weight has something to do with the labs not showing much personality and being larthargic in the ring. Think about "personality" field dogs display in the holding blind, coming to the line, watching the birds go down etc ...

Ken - My last name is spelled ROZAS - not Rosas.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

I thought the Curly Coated Retriever was the best representative of all the retrievers.

Anyone know of any Curly Coat breeders and their websites?


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

Ken Archer said:


> Like you, Angie, I noticed a slight shift toward the center in this year's Lab show. "


 I've noticed that as well with many of the Dog shows I've watched this year (I always try to watch the Sporting Breed). I thought to myself..wow that Lab is very close to working condition like the other sporting breeds. I was hoping there was a trend now in the conformation ring to actually honor the standard re-written many years ago. I guess it will take a while before that trend actually takes root at the "big show". Never understood why the Lab is the only sporting breed that is shown in such poor working condition.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Gerard Rozas said:


> I found watching the show pretty informative. The commentators even discussed why the Lab - the most popular dog in America - does not win at Big shows; and why the Terrier breeds tend to do very well at big shows. They said that terriers tend to have that personality that sparks - hey look at me! - that does well in big shows.
> 
> I have got to think that the heavy weight has something to do with the labs not showing much personality and being larthargic in the ring. Think about "personality" field dogs display in the holding blind, coming to the line, watching the birds go down etc ...
> 
> Ken - My last name is spelled ROZAS - not Rosas.


Yeah! Now in the field there is some serious personality, spark, style! How do they honestly judge that in the ring? I am not trying to be a smarty, I just want to know.....


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## Amy Avery (Feb 17, 2005)

SOME of those dogs were really nicely put together (if you take a few pounds off) but some of them walk like someone shoved a corn cob up there rear end.. LOL


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## Lady Hunter (Mar 13, 2003)

Mr. Booty, 
The Curly is a nice dog and if I am not mistaken, getting ready to run some hunt tests this summer. You can get some info at the CCRCA website www.ccrca.org and here's one that has some good working dogs www.charwinccrs.com 

Mary Veitch
Blacbarc Retrievers
Home of Ch Charwin Tracer, MH, CDX, RA
Ch Blacbarcs Draft Pick, JH, RN, WCX
Charwin Blacbarc She's A Blast


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## charmon (Oct 8, 2007)

The hunting Beagle that won the whole works doesn't look fat or out of shape. 

Get those dogs in shape and chasing birds in the water or field and their "spark" comes right out and hits you in the chest. The Judges really do not understand the breed if they cannot see how the standard hurts the dog's purpose and ability. Not matter how much food I feed my dog he will never gain the weigth to even come close to those dogs - he'll only take what he needs to maintain and never eat more.

Funny thing...none of the pointing breeds show up out of shape. How did being fat and slow ever become the standard for a hunting dog???

Disappointing really


PS Didn't waterfowl season just end a week or so ago...no way any of those dogs been out in the field two weeks ago...or any part of the season for the matter. Hunting dogs my a##


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

To each their own I suppose but those dogs weren't at all what I think of when I think of a lab.

Not one of them looked like they could retrieve even three hand thrown bumpers without taking a nap between throws.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Lady Hunter said:


> Mr. Booty,
> The Curly is a nice dog and if I am not mistaken, getting ready to run some hunt tests this summer. You can get some info at the CCRCA website www.ccrca.org and here's one that has some good working dogs www.charwinccrs.com
> 
> Mary Veitch
> ...


How do they hold up in the heat of the summer down south? I noticed on the national club website that there can be a skin problem.


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

I've had my hands on the Chessie that was pulled in Group, fat or out of shape she ain't. What a shame she didn't get a piece of the Sporting Group. The lady that owns her works hard to put HT titles on her dogs.

You Lab folks can blame Helen Warwick and her love of the"English" Lab look for all the porkers you saw last nite.

Somedoby needs to tell some of the beefarilla handlers I saw on the boob tube that hot pink ain't their color for a dress. HiDef ain't their medium either

How does one of those overweight labs ever hope to bend their head down and scarf up a POd crippled Canada Goose?


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

I watched the Lab judging and them the chessie judging. My first reaction was why did they put the labs in a small ring? They didn't get a chance to see them really move. Of course, it didn't look many of them could move very well at all. It did look like the dog that was put up was one of the better moving dogs I saw.

After that I watched the chessies. It was a very interesting contrast. For the most part all the chessies moved well and they used much more of the ring/bigger ring. I don't have the time now to watch the other retrievers. I have seen some curlies I liked. In general, I have thought the curlies have been much more capable than their owners have thought.

Tom


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

DEDEYE said:


> Yeah! Now in the field there is some serious personality, spark, style! How do they honestly judge that in the ring? I am not trying to be a smarty, I just want to know.....



Maybe we would see some spark if the judge was waving a duck over his head...or just holding a shotgun. That would do it for the dogs whose owners post here. Maybe the ring just isn't the most exciting place to be for a hunting breed. What else has a terrier got to do?


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## Lady Duck Hunter (Jan 9, 2003)

How about instead of holding a cookie out maybe have a handler blow a hail call?;-)


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## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

Steve Hester said:


> pitiful, just pitiful


Maybe they wouldn't be so big if they quit feeding them everytime they stopped, haha


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## prophet (Mar 2, 2005)

My question is if you hate the way these dogs look in the show ring & they do not look like a Lab should. Why are you not showing your dogs?? If enough of you folks did this it would show the judges what a proper Lab should look like in your opinion? Would like to know what is your reasons for not doing this.
________
Yamaha mdr-1 specifications


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

Thanks for the post of the Westmimster Dog Show. 

I have had a dog that was built similar to those dogs, he was show pointed, hunted on upland, (pheasant, sharptail and Huns) ducks and geese. He was a great companion dog and by the way he was a field champion (open and amateur).

He also produced a couple of show champions. One of his get ended up with an established and respected field trial pro with National titles to his credit on the eastern seaboard.

Within two years the breeder was getting calls from people from Maine to California who had seen the young dogs from the first breeding being worked. One pro said he had clients for every pup that came out the repeat breeding.

Most of us want the great working abilities of ourr dogs and for the most par we want the dogs to be good looking.

These show dogs still have something in them that would / could turn them on. Some may be just what the family down the street wants. Companion dog and and one that will fetch a bird up on the occasional hunt it goes on.


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## charmon (Oct 8, 2007)

Ironwood said:


> Thanks for the post of the Westmimster Dog Show.
> 
> I have had a dog that was built similar to those dogs, he was show pointed, hunted on upland, (pheasant, sharptail and Huns) ducks and geese. He was a great companion dog and by the way he was a field champion (open and amateur).
> 
> ...


Agreed.

I think the complaint of most is that the show standard for the Lab rarely reflects the true nature or trim of a working Lab. Look at the other sporting breeds and one cannot help but notice how much closer they ressemble that of their field champion counter parts. 

I think it has been since the 1930's that a field dog won best in show or breed on the national level in the US. 

It's a shame considering the Lab was bred to hunt first and your best hunters couldn't even make it to a national event but in the rare case such as yours.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Hey!!! I didn't think they looked that bad. About 7 years ago they looked wayyyy worse. They were huge and all needed oxygen to get around the ring.
> 
> Why is it that everyone that calls us looking for a puppy wants a blockier dog and not something that looks like a black greyhound?
> 
> Angie


When I'm not thinking about performance, they don't look that bad to me either. I just can't stop thinking about seeing them try to work.

Remember the first seminar I gave at Triple Crown? There they were, distinct from the pack in looks. They were pretty much what I imagine people call you about, but at the same time praying for performace like the "greyhounds" they don't like looking at.

The dogs at that event had desire. They wanted to retreive. But after one single mark at around 80 yards, they were coming back huffing and puffing like steam engines just from hauling their own mass. I felt so sorry for them. I liked them, but losing fat alone won't give them the freedom of movement lost to their frames.

People call breeders wanting unrealistic things, just like they call trainers wanting unrealistic results, don't they? Somewhere in between mythical extremes and reality overkill lies the balance so difficult to achieve; a well conformed dog that is able to, and has desire for exceptional field performance.

For all the arguing it always promotes, that balance does seem to have British roots. I would love it if our AKC bench CH retrievers had to at least have the working certificates the Brits require. Better; QAA.

Oh, well. Just dreamin', I suppose. But good points, Angie! 

Evan


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## lynette (Jun 26, 2005)

Look at my avatar.. he was a show dog from show lines..he could run in the field all day, do obedience and was Australias National Agility champion in 1992
Ch. Tenarda Just Jock. UD, AD, RRD, NRD, Aust.Nat.Agility.Ch.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Hey, labrador judge is from Australia.


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## lynette (Jun 26, 2005)

Yeah, Guy Spagnola..Driftway Kennels.( Java has Driftway lines behind her) some of his dogs are doing well in obedience up here and some further North a just starting in retrieving..There's a story going around( which knowing Guy, is probably true) That after judging the 100 year Anniversary show of the British Lab club, when asked his thoughts on the standard of dogs he judged..his comment was "They do like thier tucker, don't they?"..Those labs at Westminister were positively scawny compared to the ones he judged in England.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Yup, It sure would be nice if the labs were shown in the physical working shape of other retrievers. Flat Coats are another good example. For whatever reason hog fat got to be what was desired.

As far as those dogs panting,,,, do you know how long they had to be in the ring that day? Dollars to donuts a pretty long time. The lab entry is huge. Then if you keep competing because you have won your stake and you move on to the next judging, it takes freek'n forever. And yes it's darn boring. Many dogs sleep next to their sleepy handlers in the ring during the cuts.

I'm still pretty pleased with how much more moderate the dogs were looking compared to a few years ago. Now if only they would breed some with a brain between of their ears.

Angie


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## Sean H (Feb 13, 2008)

Well Evan, you're going to see another one at the Arkansas workshop next month! Hopefully he won't be huffing and puffing after an 80 yard retrieve though! 

He is from a show breeder in your parts of the world. Her foundation was the first ever CH NMH bitch.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Nice otter tails though!! Couple bit too gay. My main physical gripe are short legs compared to frame size.


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## lynette (Jun 26, 2005)

very nice otter tails, our Aussie show labs seem to be losing them
Angie..in Qld we have a saying if it's lunchtime, labs must be on..over here most of our shows are outdoors and it's usually lunchtime when labs get in the ring..so you can imagine how the handlers and dogs are feeling by then


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

*Lady Duck Hunter said:*



> How about instead of holding a cookie out maybe have a handler blow a hail call?


I can report from first hand experience that that will work. At a local OB trial my Chessie was bored and sleepy when it came our time in the ring. Just beforehand, I gave a little chortle on my duck call (our team uniform was camo shirts, dockers and duckcalls). Woke him right up, and he did just fine.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

He looks actively built to me, Sean.  Especially compared to what I saw in the ring. I look forward to meeting you both!

EvanG


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Aussie said:


> Nice otter tails though!! Couple bit too gay. My main physical gripe are short legs compared to frame size.



I couldn't help looking at the length of their legs compared to their frame either.


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## Paula H (Aug 2, 2004)

The trend is swinging back towards a more moderate dog. I'm sick of getting my ass kicked by the pigadores in the show ring, then getting laughed out of hunt tests because I have a "rottweiler" running. 

I asked a friend why she kept breeding bigger and bigger dogs - I wanted a pup out of a particular bitch of hers who is a retrieving machine until I heard who she's going to breed to. She said, "I can't sell pups to performance homes." 

What's happening NOW is that majors are getting harder and harder to find. The big time breeder judges have convinced folks not to enter under all arounders (who put up moderate dogs) and only enter under THEM. They then put each other up. I was in an elevator with a well-known breeder judge who commented "Oh, I'm going to put up so-and-so here, and she'll put me up somewhere else." Fortunately, since I'm a nobody in the show world, nobody knows who I am or notices that i'm around, so I can hear interesting tidbits of conversation.

I'm using a handler located near Angie B who keeps my dog in working weight. He's home now to run hunt tests and then will head back down her way this summer chasing the last *#&%@ majors, then I'm through.

That's why I got an AWS. 

I was waiting for this post today though.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> All I got to say is thank god Victoria Secret doesn't have the same philosophy...
> 
> /Paul


I'm laughing my ass off right now!!!!


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

prophet said:


> My question is if you hate the way these dogs look in the show ring & they do not look like a Lab should. Why are you not showing your dogs?? If enough of you folks did this it would show the judges what a proper Lab should look like in your opinion? Would like to know what is your reasons for not doing this.


I couldn't trot around the ring like a trained monkey, pulling a poor fat dog around that wants to be laying in bed.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Without getting into how I really feel about the show bred lab which will "tick" off the pro-show people in the forum I will just say that I wish the labrador retriever looked like an athletic dog that it should be ie.. capable of athletic feats like retrieving game, more than once, and more than 50 yards like the chessie etc.. who have not been pimped into what some people think looks good!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Merrymaker said:


> The trend is swinging back towards a more moderate dog. I'm sick of getting my ass kicked by the pigadores in the show ring, then getting laughed out of hunt tests because I have a "rottweiler" running.
> 
> I asked a friend why she kept breeding bigger and bigger dogs - I wanted a pup out of a particular bitch of hers who is a retrieving machine until I heard who she's going to breed to. She said, "I can't sell pups to performance homes."
> 
> ...


It wouldn't happen to be the same handler that handled the Papillion last night at Westminster would it???

Angie


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Evan said:


> ...that balance does seem to have British roots. I would love it if our AKC bench CH retrievers had to at least have the working certificates the Brits require.


Not the case, Evan. 99.9 percent of British Labs become show Ch. without any working test--only a "full champion" bench title requires a working certificate. And you can count those on the digits of a three-toed sloth that's a double amputee.

MG


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## prophet (Mar 2, 2005)

Steve Hester said:


> I couldn't trot around the ring like a trained monkey, pulling a poor fat dog around that wants to be laying in bed.


Steve
That is not what I was asking. If your dog meets the standard why do you not show or are you saying you could not trot around the ring without panting?
Regards
________
BUY EASY VAPE


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## Shupe25 (Jan 15, 2006)

Beautiful animals, but they all look out of shape to me. My last dog was a Brit, and she had a nice hour-glass figure and up-tuck in her abdominal area. 

I personally like the way the Brits run their shows across the pond. If I remember correctly, a sporting breed must have a certain field title before they are even allowed to compete in the show ring. It makes sure that the dog is doing what the breed was intended to do, as well as keeping the temperament and conformation of the breed. 

I thought I heard that somewhere. Do I have that right? 

-Geoff


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Where is the popcorn eating emicon when you need it? In fact, none of my emicons work, not the wink, cool or any of them! Is there someting I need to turn on to get them to work!

Both sides are at fault. Field justifies poor conformation because their dogs can do the work though many don't look like a Lab as deifned by the Standard. Bench dogs have a hard time because many are bred to be huge and clumsy and don't fit the Standard either.

Bring on the moderate Lab!


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

at least the trim, beagle won best of show, not some fat "wanna be" hunting dog --- Don't you all think our dogs look better than those "show" dogs?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

caglatz said:


> at least the trim, beagle won best of show, not some fat "wanna be" hunting dog --- Don't you all think our dogs look better than those "show" dogs?


I've got some black whippets in the kennel that would make your eyes hurt but dang they rock in the field.... Hahahahaha

Angie


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## J. Torrey (Nov 11, 2007)

Of course we wish the Labrador breeding programs had been more consistent and they looked as they did when our shores where graced with the breed. That said, Trial folks are just as much to blame as the show breeders for this dilemma. 

When was the last time "most" trial breeders to confirmation into consideration at all? I'm not talking about heads and tails. I'm talking about the proper angulation that keeps a Labrador sound and healthy.

Why do you think we have all these torn cruciates? Just a thought. 

In my humble experience, most trial breeders breed to who ever has the best record or throws competitive dogs. Sometimes even with out seeing the dog run or even worse basing there decision off of a picture in the field trial news.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of overweight show dogs either. In stead of protecting the Labradors original looks and qualities they've engineered them into what is pleasing to there eyes. Sadley many have given up on the one thing that makes a "Retriever a Retriever" 

That said, No breed of anything has a perfect specimen. Human super models are not typically rocket scientist or fabulous athletes. Normally the greatest minds are not much to look at.

I flew out to the Patomac show a couple of times. Just to see what the show dogs were about. Although, There dogs don't typically work out for my trial program. I was very impressed with there knowledge of genetics and the time they put into researching there breedings.

They might have different goals then we do, but they don't take breeding lightly. They breed on the same lines as horse or cattle breeders. I wish more trial breeders were this way. 

Good luck this season.


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## Paula H (Aug 2, 2004)

Angie B said:


> It wouldn't happen to be the same handler that handled the Papillion last night at Westminster would it???
> 
> Angie


Yes, it would! He's one of the nicest folks I've ever met, and he keeps my dog in fabulous working condition. He thinks that a Lab ought to be shown in working condition. I hate the whole handler idea, but he's fabulous. My dog comes back ready for some polish on line manners and we hit the field. I have used another handler before, and I had to sit out a season because I had to take about 10 pounds off the dog before I would do some serious training.

I understand you and this handler "shared" a dog once - finished a CH while training at your place. I have similar aspirations. My dog is home now to finish his JH and start Seasoned - and this summer will head back down that way. 

I might be heading down for the DFWLRC show - but hubby is leaving for Bahrain with the Navy around that time, so I might not be able to pull it off. Last year this dog was puny compared to the other dogs in the breed ring - thought that was sort of funny.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

Buzz said:


> I just can't get excited one way or the other anymore.


Viagra!!! ;-)


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## GoodDog (Oct 15, 2007)

Mr Booty said:


> Where is the popcorn eating emicon when you need it? In fact, none of my emicons work, not the wink, cool or any of them! Is there someting I need to turn on to get them to work!
> 
> Both sides are at fault. Field justifies poor conformation because their dogs can do the work though many don't look like a Lab as deifned by the Standard. Bench dogs have a hard time because many are bred to be huge and clumsy and don't fit the Standard either.
> 
> Bring on the moderate Lab!


Amen Brother!!!


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## Scout (Dec 23, 2007)

Here is a nifty link comparing photos of old Champions to newer ones.


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

They're too short, and too chunky, but there isn't a cow hock amomg 'em.

tt


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## J. Torrey (Nov 11, 2007)

Merrymaker said:


> Yes, it would! He's one of the nicest folks I've ever met, and he keeps my dog in fabulous working condition. He thinks that a Lab ought to be shown in working condition. I hate the whole handler idea, but he's fabulous. My dog comes back ready for some polish on line manners and we hit the field. I have used another handler before, and I had to sit out a season because I had to take about 10 pounds off the dog before I would do some serious training.
> 
> I understand you and this handler "shared" a dog once - finished a CH while training at your place. I have similar aspirations. My dog is home now to finish his JH and start Seasoned - and this summer will head back down that way.
> 
> I might be heading down for the DFWLRC show - but hubby is leaving for Bahrain with the Navy around that time, so I might not be able to pull it off. Last year this dog was puny compared to the other dogs in the breed ring - thought that was sort of funny.


What's the use of having a working shape dog that doesn't win?? A good handler know his judges. If show is your game and fat wins why not win? Worry about the JH later. (I'm kinda kidding about the JH. Kinda) 

I tend to use Rusty Howard with my fat pigs. I have a beautiful bitch from Carol Hiedl.


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## Dick Jennings (Mar 19, 2007)

Correct conformation is exhibited by Shed of Arden, Branchory Bolo, Blind of Arden and King Buck. These dogs of the past are the foundation of the Labrador breed in America. This conformation can be seen at any FT and most hunt tests today. The dogs that you see are sired by Lean Mac, Cosmo, Abe, Carbon and so many more great champions. The names have changed, but the conformation is the same. It is the conformation for strength, power, style and athleticsim,... resulting in amazing beauty.


It also doesn't hurt that the "field" Lab can easily be transported in a canoe, rather than needing a 20' Lund with a 65hp motor that would be needed for the Labs at Westminster! Anyway, my wife keeps telling me we don't have the money for a boat!

Happily paddling in NH.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

What strikes me is as the legs get shorter - so does the tail...and some of those tails looked like they had been cropped...about 1/3 gone!

Sad that there was alot of tongues hanging out but at least there were no legs lifted...


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

prophet said:


> Steve
> That is not what I was asking. If your dog meets the standard why do you not show or are you saying you could not trot around the ring without panting?
> Regards


I could trot around the ring, but what's the point? It's a beauty pageant for fat labs.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

charmon said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I think the complaint of most is that the show standard for the Lab rarely reflects the true nature or trim of a working Lab. Look at the other sporting breeds and one cannot help but notice how much closer they ressemble that of their field champion counter parts.
> 
> ...


But have you *read* the LRC standard? It calls for a moderate, active, athletic dog (read one of Ken's earlier posts---- it's all really there in the standard!). The judges have to be presented w/ those specimens, however. I'm willing to bet that the trend for the All Arounder type judge IS changing a bit toward moderation as one of my 15 mo olds got a SERIOUS look for RWD 2 weekends ago by a well known judge who has field trialed another sporting breed. We also have a couple Labs out here who have won several Best in Shows, both shown in good working condition. One is currently competing in Open obed and SH and the other has his JH but will be doing more intense agility in AK last I knew. I think most of you would like both of these boys. The problem as I see it anyhow, is that the specialty type judges as a whole just like "more" than many of us sitting here. 

I guess that is why I'm taking my dogs to the Intl shows for now. Have one this coming weekend-- they judge against the FCI standard (English)-- the English standard also calls for a moderate dog, btw (and no DQs for size, etc). I just beefed up 3 yo Mata by ~2-3 lbs, nonetheless, because otherwise she'd look like a 12 mo old out there! Now she'll just look like an 18 mo old. 

Short legs, etc, are incorrect for the breed... see pic from the illustrated standard, below.


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## J. Torrey (Nov 11, 2007)

Dick Jennings said:


> Correct conformation is exhibited by Shed of Arden, Branchory Bolo, Blind of Arden and King Buck. These dogs of the past are the foundation of the Labrador breed in America. This conformation can be seen at any FT and most hunt tests today. The dogs that you see are sired by Lean Mac, Cosmo, Abe, Carbon and so many more great champions. The names have changed, but the conformation is the same. It is the conformation for strength, power, style and athleticsim,... resulting in amazing beauty.
> 
> 
> It also doesn't hurt that the "field" Lab can easily be transported in a canoe, rather than needing a 20' Lund with a 65hp motor that would be needed for the Labs at Westminster! Anyway, my wife keeps telling me we don't have the money for a boat!
> ...


I'd have to half disagree with you. Yes, Shed of Arden, Branchory Bolo, Blind of Arden and King Buck are original breding stock and should have been the standard. On the other hand, I've seen the dogs of recent you mentioned and they are not the same. Abe was the only one that would even come close. The others had great attributes and definitely brought something to the breed, but it was not all good. ( If your breeding for the "entire Labrador" and not just ability.) 

Good luck.


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## lynette (Jun 26, 2005)

Our judges in Australia are starting to look at the more athletic dogs, now. A friend's Labby is only 7 points away from his show title, he is already a tracking champion, obedience champion and most importantly a retrieving champion. This will make him the second only quadruple champion in Australia...the first one was a Lab as well. Aussie would know of him...Jackie Duffie's, Dr Phil.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

lynette said:


> Our judges in Australia are starting to look at the more athletic dogs, now. A friend's Labby is only 7 points away from his show title, he is already a tracking champion, obedience champion and most importantly a retrieving champion. This will make him the second only quadruple champion in Australia...the first one was a Lab as well. Aussie would know of him...Jackie Duffie's, Dr Phil.


I'd love to see a photo!

I want to add too, that I was over all pleased w/ the dogs in the video this year (and the winner), and so was my normally critical Golden Retriever breeder friend. Yes, there were a couple that need to go to Weight watchers, but on the whole, the dogs were much more moderate and fit than the last several years. I noticed that one had a CDX-- anyone who has trained repetitive jumping (must jump their height) knows that you don't do that w/ an overweight unmotivated dog. That isn't to say they didn't add a few lbs on for the ring, but at least weight is temporary. I'm personally seeing more and more good all arounder judges out there that I think will reward the moderate dog if presented... I'll be trying to do my part here soon hopefully w/ my youngest. 

As for field dogs being to standard, I think if you really study fronts, you'll find a huge shortcoming there. I started w/ some pretty nice field dogs, but have really had to work to improve on the front angulation. The standard calls for balance-- and the angulation front to rear is more often than not, not there. Lots of straight fronts out there, sometimes on overangulated rears which can make for less efficient movement.


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## lynette (Jun 26, 2005)

windycanyon said:


> I'd love to see a photo!
> 
> I want to add too, that I was over all pleased w/ the dogs in the video this year (and the winner), and so was my normally critical Golden Retriever breeder friend. Yes, there were a couple that need to go to Weight watchers, but on the whole, the dogs were much more moderate and fit than the last several years. I noticed that one had a CDX-- anyone who has trained repetitive jumping (must jump their height) knows that you don't do that w/ an overweight unmotivated dog. That isn't to say they didn't add a few lbs on for the ring, but at least weight is temporary. I'm personally seeing more and more good all arounder judges out there that I think will reward the moderate dog if presented... I'll be trying to do my part here soon hopefully w/ my youngest.
> 
> As for field dogs being to standard, I think if you really study fronts, you'll find a huge shortcoming there. I started w/ some pretty nice field dogs, but have really had to work to improve on the front angulation. The standard calls for balance-- and the angulation front to rear is more often than not, not there. Lots of straight fronts out there, sometimes on overangulated rears which can make for less efficient movement.


I'll see if I can get you one.


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## Twolabsplus (Aug 29, 2004)

A conformation lab person that I had the aquaintence of..... indicated to me
that her dogs were bred for the field but that most of us "field dog" people seem
to choose Labs that didn't look like Labs. They looked like "mixed breeds", mostly
Greyhounds. She went on and on and I managed to interject the conformation
Lab didn't have the stamina to do what a field Lab does which really got her going
and so..... I removed myself from the conversation before I got into trouble.

Conformation Labs are nice and I would never "insult" an owner/breeder by saying
something ugly about them. But to each his/her own. I don't have Greyhounds,
I have "athletes". 

I like my "speed demon", "flies over tall buildings", "git down go around"....Lab. 
I think they are beautiful. Thank you, thank you very much.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

In fairness they weren't all as bad as I'd imagined they would be. 

A good hard season running about a third of their body weight off and building up some muscle would transform their looks, or some of them anyway.

But as hunters we know what a fit, hard, dog looks like and there ain't many in that clip.

eug


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Gerard Rozas said:


> I have got to think that the heavy weight has something to do with the labs not showing much personality and being larthargic in the ring. Think about "personality" field dogs display in the holding blind, coming to the line, watching the birds go down etc ...


I have noticed that when people bring me fat Labradors, these dogs literally throw their weight around. They tend to have a mindset of wanting to do what they want to do, regardless of the handler's opinion. They have learned that they can use their mass, since they're mostly immovable (unless they want to; see above) to prevent the person's making them do anything.

Of course as I diet these dogs, I train them at the same time, but it always seems to be weight loss, rather than accumulated training, that brings the switch from stubborn and resistant to animated and cooperative.

I tried showing a Chesapeake last summer, and was dismayed to find that the dogs competing against me (OK, the dogs that kicked my butt) were fat, almost like show Labradors, and had coats that were much too long IMO as well as curly. I had known for some time that show people like a lot of curl, but did not realize the disqualification for coats over 1 1/2" was being ignored. I talked to some handlers, and learned that there are several breeds that are shown fat.

Wonder if it'll happen with coonhounds now they're in the AKC.

Amy Dahl


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I guess I have no problem for folks who bulk up dogs for the show ring only to get them back in shape. The problem I think is that the perception of john q public thinks that what they should look like all the time. I cant say how many times I have been asked what kind of dog is that(golden) 

I assume things will always be that way form vs. function.

Reminds me of a book Rough shooting dog.
It was about a guy that owned a field bred springer. One of the chapters he tells about out walking the dog and this guy pulls up in a MG and is wearing a tweed jacket and gets his show bred springer out. The author comments that that is a nice looking dog and the professor replies thank you and what kind of dog is that.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Pigador or greyhound, show or field what ever. A good looking dog is a good looking dog and I see a LOT more good looking dogs from field lines.


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## Paula H (Aug 2, 2004)

J. Torrey said:


> What's the use of having a working shape dog that doesn't win?? A good handler know his judges. If show is your game and fat wins why not win? Worry about the JH later. (I'm kinda kidding about the JH. Kinda)
> 
> I tend to use Rusty Howard with my fat pigs. I have a beautiful bitch from Carol Hiedl.


If you show an in-working-shape dog to the right judge, he will win. The all around judges always compliment my dog on his condition. The breeder judges don't - but they don't look at my dog anyway. The challenge is finding a major under an all arounder, because the breeders of the pigadores won't enter under them so we don't achieve the numbers for a major (19 dogs, 23 bitches in my neck of the woods). 

I much prefer field work, but showing is fun too to a degree. I strongly believe a good Lab should do both, and I'm willing to take my lumps. 

Rusty does a nice job - used to use him YEARS ago when he lived down our way. Carol Heidl has bred some LOVELY dogs - talk about consistency in a breeding program! And no, they are NOT overdone - especially her bitches.


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## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

When ever I see these threads I always think of what IMHO the breed standard should look like, and this dog comes to mind.

http://www3.telus.net/tntkennels/gunner1.htm

He's the whole package.

Bert


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## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

After watching that video I sure wish I could show my brown boy. I would have to cut his legs & tail in half and add 20 + lbs to him so he wouldn’t get laughed at in the ring.

IMO and not because Gunner is my dog, but I think he has the old school looks of a Lab and can perform to the description that a Lab is suppose to do in a days work in the field.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Greg, it's not so much the absolute length of tail but that it's all in balance with the rest of his body. He'd look out of whack w/a short tail imo, and I do see show labs w/ too short of tails! (tails should extend to ~ the hock) 

You have some UKC shows near you-- I think they judge each dog against the standard-- you should enter him as he's a very nice dog! Someone probably knows for sure but don't the judges give a written critique too? They do at our International shows out here. It's good info, if nothing else. Many of the judges are AKC judges also. Anne


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## MRGD (Apr 9, 2007)

As far as the weight goes, I think there was a thread on here a while back in which someone posted a study from either Pennhip or something in Australia, that said that over a labs life, restrictive feeding and less weight far lessoned the risk of hip dysplasia. So dysplasia later in life is not always genetic(at least not solely). Having a dog as fat as those and asking it to hunt in a pheasant field all day would beat its elbows and hips to death.

tt


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## prophet (Mar 2, 2005)

http://www.offa.org/healthchlab.html
________
Toyota Tf104 Specifications


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

rbr said:


> When ever I see these threads I always think of what IMHO the breed standard should look like, and this dog comes to mind.
> 
> http://www3.telus.net/tntkennels/gunner1.htm
> 
> ...


He is quite a specimen!


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

prophet said:


> http://www.offa.org/healthchlab.html



You would think that dog would have a NAHRA title


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## Jeff Kolanski (Dec 9, 2005)

Those labs probably would be about 10-12lbs less if their handlers would stop giving them sooo many treats in the ring!!


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## J. Torrey (Nov 11, 2007)

Merrymaker said:


> If you show an in-working-shape dog to the right judge, he will win. The all around judges always compliment my dog on his condition. The breeder judges don't - but they don't look at my dog anyway. The challenge is finding a major under an all arounder, because the breeders of the pigadores won't enter under them so we don't achieve the numbers for a major (19 dogs, 23 bitches in my neck of the woods).
> 
> I much prefer field work, but showing is fun too to a degree. I strongly believe a good Lab should do both, and I'm willing to take my lumps.
> 
> Rusty does a nice job - used to use him YEARS ago when he lived down our way. Carol Heidl has bred some LOVELY dogs - talk about consistency in a breeding program! And no, they are NOT overdone - especially her bitches.



You are so right about all breed shows Vs. Specialties. Very different types win each. I've seen a lot of references to weight in reference to show Labradors. No doubt most could be in a better working shape, but there bones structures are nothing like most Field trial dogs. There rib cages are very wide and barrel like. If they were to trim down like most posters think they should, they just would not look healthy. 

Historically Labradors are water retrievers. How do you think Bolo would have fared in today's Field trials or even a big day of upland hunting? I don't think it's what the were designed for. Double coat, otter tail, short coupled, webbed toes, etc. Labradors happened to be so easy to work with we started using them for a variety of other outdoor events. The Field trial community has developed the Labrador into a dog that suits our purpose for field trials. 

I personally love the field competitions. I also prefer to work with trial dogs, it's what my buyers want. That said, I have a real respect for the thought and time Show and dual purpose breeders put into the programs. If you have the opportunity attend one the big breeders shows. It really is a lot more then running around a ring. I was very surprised as to the time and effort spent at shows.

Good luck.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Greg Seddon said:


> After watching that video I sure wish I could show my brown boy. I would have to cut his legs & tail in half and add 20 + lbs to him so he wouldn’t get laughed at in the ring.
> 
> IMO and not because Gunner is my dog, but I think he has the old school looks of a Lab and can perform to the description that a Lab is suppose to do in a days work in the field.


Man, he could be as ugly as uncle tex's step-daughters cousin but that blue would sure make him handsome...

/Paul


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

shupe25 posted 



> I personally like the way the Brits run their shows across the pond. If I remember correctly, a sporting breed must have a certain field title before they are even allowed to compete in the show ring. It makes sure that the dog is doing what the breed was intended to do, as well as keeping the temperament and conformation of the breed. I thought I heard that somewhere. Do I have that right?


Sort of. 

As *crackred* replied to *Evan*, in UK you can show Labs up to middling levels without any Working Certificate; beyond that you have to have one. However the standard is set very low, nothing that hunters or FT followers would recognise as a serious qualification. here's a link to the Kennel club site 
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/470 You will note that it's possible to gain the certificate without the dog ever seeing game or hearing a shot fired. I relish the idea but the practise is disappointing.

Eug


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## LabLady101 (Mar 17, 2006)

Colonel Blimp said:


> shupe25 posted
> 
> Sort of.
> 
> ...


I hear you there. The Lab WC here (supposedly required, in lue of as little as a hunt test pass, before LRC members can label their dogs as CHs, though I think there's many who ignore the requirement) isn't even a full JH test. 1 Land bird and 2 Water at 50 yards...but, I suppose it is the thought that counts...



On the flip side, I think folks who do not want to show their field breds but still believe they meet the standard should look into obtaining a CC (Conformation Certificate). It's a non-competitive way (similar to a hunt test) to see how well your dog meets the standard. It's just you, a judge, your dog, and a score sheet.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

I am amazed by the number of people defending that show type. 

I have nothing good to say.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

AmiableLabs said:


> I am amazed by the number of people defending that show type.
> 
> I have nothing good to say.


Some could say the same about field type, Kevin. I'm a "tweener" breeder (started w/ field labs)... is it so bad to want it all? 

I spent all day today at an International Dog Show w/ my 3 yo bitch. Will go back tomorrow. Regardless of the fact that it's not the most exciting thing I do, I always learn more about my dogs there-- both their short comings, and more surprising at times, their attributes (I tend to be a little tough on evaluating my own). I keep this info amongst other training info in mind when I select studs to breed to. I took the bitch in the 1st 3 photos below-- she's very moderate, but scored very high under 2 lab judges at the LRC conformation certificate 3 mos ago. I was surprised that today's (2) judges both also rated her much higher than I'd have thought they would personally. Won a BOB from the Show 2 judge-- she commented amongst other things what a pretty, nice moving bitch she was and that it was really nice to see a lab shown in good working condition. 

Here I was all worried about the tooth she'd knocked out a couple months ago, yet the judges seemed almost pleased to hear how she did it, I think (agility)! The 2nd 2 photos are of my co-owned 16mo old boy who is Mata's 1/2 brother. They are both sired by a 3x CH/ 2x MH dog. 

PS I'm really confused by that comment, from someone w/ the handle of AmiableLabs. Doesn't seem too amiable to me!


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## pafromga (Jul 16, 2006)

AmiableLabs said:


> I am amazed by the number of people defending that show type.
> 
> I have nothing good to say.


deleted my post.................................


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> I'm a "tweener" breeder (started w/ field labs)... is it so bad to want it all?


It is folks like Windy Canyon that will do more to preserve the integrity of the breed than any Bench or Field Specialty breeder!

That's because she takes the entire dog into consideration. I salute anyone that is trying to preserve ALL the qualities that define Labrador Retriever. 

When folks DON'T stick to The Standard is when we get clumsy overwight and over-boned behemoths or light-boned and narrow dogs loaded with FT talent!


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Mr Booty said:


> When folks DON'T stick to The Standard is when we get clumsy overwight and over-boned behemoths or light-boned and narrow dogs loaded with FT talent!


I wonder why organizations like the AKC have let this happen…they control the standards for both the ring and the fields don’t they?


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

The national breed clubs are the ones that write the standard for it's own breed, not the AKC.

Andy


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> I wonder why organizations like the AKC have let this happen…they control the standards for both the ring and the fields don’t they?



The AKC is the governing body however, it is the clubs both Bench and Show that select the judges. There are both good and bad judges in both venues. It is the judges that select champions, just one reason to look beyond titles when selecting a pup.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Andy Carlson said:


> The national breed clubs are the ones that write the standard for it's own breed, not the AKC.
> 
> Andy


Absolutely correct. So, in the broadest sense, it is us, all Lab owners, who have let this happen. How many of us are members of the LRC, Inc.? I am not certain how voices get heard in the LRC but if we are not members, we have no voice. And, I will admit that although I was a member of the GSP of America when I had GSPs, I've never joined the LRC, just local retriever clubs dedicated to field competition. Maybe that is where change will start. But, if we go down that road, bear in mind that it will take change on both sides before we ever see a dual champion.


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## Franco (Jun 27, 2003)

Don Smith said:


> How many of us are members of the LRC, Inc.?


I just joined thanks to my sponsors Angie and Gregg!

Here is an interesting page from the LRC website;

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/library/titleddogs.html


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## prophet (Mar 2, 2005)

I posted this ? on a couple of breed sites This is what the LRC states

Note:
No member of the Club shall use the title "CH" in front of the name of a registered Labrador Retriever dog until said dog, having won a conformation championship, shall also receive a working certificate or the equivalent as defined in this Article. 

http://pub12.bravenet.com/forum/976632990/show/695615

http://woodhavenlabsforum.com/breedersforum/index.php?topic=8898.0

I like this part of an answer best 

With the original post with the LRC,Inc. that is true about what they say, but they haven't enforced it in any way, I'm a member of the LRC and they haven't taken away any Ch. titles on my dogs 
I think that is still in place on the books, but they know that it isn't something they will enforce. 

So now why does the parent club of our breed not enforce there own rules?
________
VAPOR GENIE VAPORIZER


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## Martha Lancaster (Sep 5, 2003)

prophet said:


> I posted this ? on a couple of breed sites This is what the LRC states
> 
> Note:
> No member of the Club shall use the title "CH" in front of the name of a registered Labrador Retriever dog until said dog, having won a conformation championship, shall also receive a working certificate or the equivalent as defined in this Article.
> ...


Well, here are the names of the officers of The Labrador Club. Which of these folks show in conformation, and which are field trialers?


About the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc.

Officers
President A. Nelson Sills 

Vice President Marshall Simonds, Esq 

Secretary Mary Feazell
1221 Hidden Cove Ct.
Granbury, TX 76049
(817) 279-6048


Treasurer Madelyn (Lyn) Yelton
295 Woods Rd.
Elkton, MD 21921
410-885-5090

AKC Delegate A. Nelson Sills


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Andy Carlson said:


> The national breed clubs are the ones that write the standard for it's own breed, not the AKC.
> 
> Andy


One would think that the AKC would try do use their influence…but then again why should they.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm not sure the problem is with the standard.I just don't think the weight standard is given the same consideration at the height standard. If dogs were disqualified for exceeding the weight standard you would begin seeing much slimmer dogs.

At least three of the officers are involved with field trials and run dogs that are in great FT shape.


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Jeff, I know they don't care about the weight given in the standard at all. While the heights are followed very carefully, I was told the weights are more like "guidelines" (think Pirates of Caribbean LOL).


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## Martha Lancaster (Sep 5, 2003)

YardleyLabs said:


> At least three of the officers are involved with field trials and run dogs that are in great FT shape.


Do they care what conformation Labradors look like? Are they enforcing the rule that to advertise a conformation CH in front of the dogs name it must have a WC?


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## Devlin (Jan 19, 2006)

To paraphrase an old Southern expression, "Life's too short to train...or trial...or hunt with fat dogs." Just my humble opinion, but I can't accept that those Labs can be considered the breed standard...regardless of color. ;-) If my Sadie looked like that, she'd be on a serious diet and doubled exercise and training time. Again, just my opinion.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Mr Booty said:


> It is folks like Windy Canyon that will do more to preserve the integrity of the breed than any Bench or Field Specialty breeder!
> 
> That's because she takes the entire dog into consideration. I salute anyone that is trying to preserve ALL the qualities that define Labrador Retriever.
> 
> When folks DON'T stick to The Standard is when we get clumsy overwight and over-boned behemoths or light-boned and narrow dogs loaded with FT talent!



Thank you Mr Booty!  And I have to tell you, this was a weekend I wish you folks who have little faith in the show venue could have been flies on the wall. One neat thing about the Intl shows held by the IABCA is that you can go in using your AKC titles too (they appear on your eval sheets that the judges fill out), and many of the judges are AKC or CKC judges too, so they know what those letters mean! EVERY judge complimented me on my girls' fitness directly, and each one recognized that my girl was slow to mature-- which I know is a good thing in the end! 2 of 3 asked about her performance titles and complimented the "brains" part of the equation. They are COOL venues, folks!!! A nice field dog CAN do well there too so I really encourage you to participate. 

Anyhow, Mata is now Intl CH WindyCanyon's Northern Spy CDX JH RA CC (and qualified for the 2008 PSLRA All Arounder Award!). Attached is a photo taken with her "medals". Oh my... her head is going to swell...

And yes, I'm a new member of LRC as of this past year as well.  Anne

PS, she's training for SH and doing well!!! Probably won't compete til next year though as we're doing agility similtaneously and I only have so much time and $$$!


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

windycanyon said:


> Thank you Mr Booty!  And I have to tell you, this was a weekend I wish you folks who have little faith in the show venue could have been flies on the wall. One neat thing about the Intl shows held by the IABCA is that you can go in using your AKC titles too (they appear on your eval sheets that the judges fill out), and many of the judges are AKC or CKC judges too, so they know what those letters mean! EVERY judge complimented me on my girls' fitness directly, and each one recognized that my girl was slow to mature-- which I know is a good thing in the end! 2 of 3 asked about her performance titles and complimented the "brains" part of the equation. They are COOL venues, folks!!! A nice field dog CAN do well there too so I really encourage you to participate.
> 
> Anyhow, Mata is now Intl CH WindyCanyon's Northern Spy CDX JH RA CC (and qualified for the 2008 PSLRA All Arounder Award!). Attached is a photo taken with her "medals". Oh my... her head is going to swell...
> 
> ...


Congratulations!! And she is a great looking girl!

Remember that those that are critical of the looks of the show labs (myself included) were refering specifically to the video linked by the OP. Those dogs are obese and, in my opinion, a poor representative of the breed.

Your dog it light years ahead of those in looks and condition. I don't think anyone would have anything disparaging to say about her.

Again, congratulations. Both on the new title and the work you're doing with your breeding program.

Rick


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Comments well taken Rick.  I think sometimes it's easy for both sides to get too generic w/ their criticisms. Years ago on the old Lab-L chat list, the field v show debate was a semi-annual thing and I kept wondering if a split in the breed ever did happen (there were people pushing for it), where would my Labs fit??? It's a rather sad feeling.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Andy Carlson said:


> The national breed clubs are the ones that write the standard for it's own breed, not the AKC.
> 
> Andy


There is enough dubious distinction to go around, alright. But the judges salute the flag over at the AKC headquarters, and all appear to be in tight formation. Year after year, the sporting dogs look unfit for the intent of their respective breeds.

Middle ground is a noble goal, but an elusive one. I'll declare this one truth, however. The goal of a true balance has a far greater chance to exist among field dog breeding than bench breeding. Any takers on that bet?

Evan


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Evan said:


> Middle ground is a noble goal, but an elusive one. I'll declare this one truth, however. The goal of a true balance has a far greater chance to exist among field dog breeding than bench breeding. Any takers on that bet? Evan


I would have to agree, Evan, but breed character can be mighty elusive amongst field-bred dogs. Show-bred dogs have it to excess. I have a linebred Lean Mac female (grand-daughter bred to a son) that I am thinking about breeding to a show-bred sire in order to capture the straight, otter tail and to get a little more bone and double coat. Pups from that outcross would then be bred back to a son or grandson of Lean Mac to get what I really want....performance and good looks in a mid-1970s package.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Evan said:


> I'll declare this one truth, however. The goal of a true balance has a far greater chance to exist among field dog breeding than bench breeding. Any takers on that bet?
> 
> Evan


I agree completely, Evan. Perhaps to some extent that's because form follows function and, as someone else said, it is not so much that the breed standard is wrong, but the interpretation of it. That being said, however, I've seen things go askew in the field with dogs that by no stretch of the imagination comply with the breed standard. To some extent, I've seen that in Labs, but to a greater extent back when I was involved with my first breed, German shorthairs. There were a couple of field trialers who made little secret of the fact that their "registered German shorthairs" were actually the product of GSP-pointer crosses and falsified registrations. Getting the big All Age run, a horizon busting straight run off the line before they hit the first objective was so important to these guys that rather than breed for that kind of run, they "added some big run blood." Some of these dogs looked exactly like pointers with a docked tails. When the big run All Age (horseback) dogs also started winning the Gun Dog (foot) stakes was the time that I got out of the field trial game.


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

This will make you sick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPh7rQQU_xY&NR=1


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Ken Archer said:


> This will make you sick.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPh7rQQU_xY&NR=1


Yes, I agree. That weight they portray (as apparently being normal for the breed) is very sad. 

As for Evan's comments... hmmm. I'm trying to decide as it depends on how the lines would blend (and how good you are at selection of pups).  I started out w/ a nice granddaughter out of CFC Sundee's Pacemaker (Hiwood lines-- very nice looking dogs imo!), bred into athletic "all arounders" (Ch with good performance titles and backgrounds) for 2-3 generations. Mata will be taken to a field/show blend sired by a QAA dog (and he was sired by a Westminster winner in the early 90's) this fall if all goes as planned. They should be nicely balanced and great working dogs, but likely would not make it in the show ring today. Judging trends in the AKC ring would have to swing around quite a bit first! My dogs today would have fit in pretty nicely in the early 90's though. It's interesting to me that the breed standard change adapted in 1994 seemed to have the opposite effect as intended. Instead, the trend for "more" lab in the show ring began about that year. 

It's not just tails that are difficult-- most of the labs there are "dripping" with coat that you just don't find in the field dogs at all. I've really had to work on coat here and can assure you even w/ 2 generations of nice show breeding there, Mata's is "just there" at 3 yo. The show labs will make my dogs' coats look skimpy too but I believe mine to be more correct in that they dry out quickly and offer the protection in the cold water that they need. I took Mata to the river for her "pre-show bumper bath" on Friday (my idea of grooming though there were icebergs floating), and she was totally dry w/in 2 hrs tops vs 10x that in many 100% show bred dogs.


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## RedstarKennels (Dec 22, 2007)

As Soon as the Judges stop placing these Labs looking the way they do...then you'll see the trend shift...Until then...they'll stay the same as they are and as placed...
In the Quarter Horse World...We call em Halter Horses AKA..."Lead em and Feed em". Most of these Horses can't even lope. AQHA is now trying to get them to show in one performance class in order to hold title in Halter...


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## Page (Jul 21, 2005)

J. Torrey said:


> You are so right about all breed shows Vs. Specialties. Very different types win each. I've seen a lot of references to weight in reference to show Labradors. No doubt most could be in a better working shape, but there bones structures are nothing like most Field trial dogs. There rib cages are very wide and barrel like. If they were to trim down like most posters think they should, they just would not look healthy.
> 
> Historically Labradors are water retrievers. How do you think Bolo would have fared in today's Field trials or even a big day of upland hunting? I don't think it's what the were designed for. Double coat, otter tail, short coupled, webbed toes, etc. Labradors happened to be so easy to work with we started using them for a variety of other outdoor events. The Field trial community has developed the Labrador into a dog that suits our purpose for field trials.


I agree with this 100%. 

I wasn't able to watch the video because I couldn't access the site from this computer, but this thread honestly makes me wonder why I even want to train my dogs for hunt tests if you guys will always look down on my dogs and me. Why waste the time and money if I will never be taken seriously? 

Some of the comments in this thread are truly hateful.

I am *very proud* of my boy who finished early this year in the show ring, all owner handled except for once when my leg was broken, and once when I thought I was going to throw up if I stepped into the ring. He finished with 17 points and two majors and was entered into a total of 19 show weekends.

We finished our RN last weekend and I am training him daily for continued obedience and hunt tests. 

Some of you may think he looks fat in the pictures below. He is not fat. He has a thick double coat that makes his appearance more "rounded", but when you touch him he is tightly muscled and you can distinctly feel his ribs. 


















Some of you mention the Labs panting. This is funny to me because mine will occassionally pant at shows but not out of being winded from one lap around the ring, but from excitement (and sometimes the warmth in the arenas...it can get flat out hot in there). Don't yours pant when you excite them? Maybe not. Your minute in the spotlight is very short at a conformation show and it can be very nerve-wracking. In my case I know that nervous excited energy travels down the lead to the dog and their excitement clearly shows. My dogs can run and swim all day long and do during the summer months when I take them to the lake. They don't wear out like some of you falsely believe they would. 



> Do they care what conformation Labradors look like? Are they enforcing the rule that to advertise a conformation CH in front of the dogs name it must have a WC?


The LRC can't take away a title the AKC gives. It is my goal to at least put a CD and a JH on every dog I finish but if I get too many dogs to realistically do it all, so be it. I will choose to stick with the venue I originally started out with. What do you think about the FT champions having to obtain a CC to use the title they earned? Is that done, I don't know?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Page,

Why worry about if others look down their nose at you or not? Who's going to look down their nose when you show them that your show dog can do the work with style? And after all. It's about what you think and what kind of pleasure your dogs give you and you them, doing what you love doing.

Not everyone thinks the same. But their going to respect someone who does well with what they have and doesn't apologize for it...

Angie


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## Page (Jul 21, 2005)

Angie B said:


> Page,
> 
> Why worry about if others look down their nose at you or not? Who's going to look down their nose when you show them that your show dog can do the work with style? And after all. It's about what you think and what kind of pleasure your dogs give you and you them, doing what you love doing.
> 
> ...


Angie, 

Thanks for posting. I hope you are right.

I guess it felt for a second like I am trying to make my way to a middle ground and the other side seems to be throwing stones this way, so why not retreat back to my safe corner with my "conformation only" folks? Why make the effort? - I know that all sounds really dramatic. The creative writer in me is just trying to paint a colorful picture to best illustrate the thread from a certain point of view.  

Of course I won't go running back to my corner. I really do desire to do it all and am so excited about the training we are currently doing.  I just wish I had started earlier. It's hard when you are so focussed on a goal (training wise, and money wise) to spread out and cover more ground all at once. 

Leo was a pure pet until I began showing him at the age of 3 1/2, so we started everything very late and I feel like we're playing beat the clock. LOL


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I agree with Angie and Frontier-they looked way better than a few years ago when this is what they looked like. Compare to the pic below-the owner argues her dog is athletic.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I agree with Angie and Frontier-they looked way better than a few years ago when this is what they looked like. Compare to the pic below-the owner argues her dog is athletic.


Ahemmmmm,,,, *cough* I think I know of whom you speak, and I've heard the same argument. A person can say anything they want but if it looks like a tub of lard and moves like a tub of lard... Guess what???

The dogs that go special are still pretty gross with the amount of wub they carry..... But that is a culture unto itself. Now isn't that unusal for the breed??? Hehehehe.....

Angie


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

ErinsEdge said:


> I agree with Angie and Frontier-they looked way better than a few years ago when this is what they looked like. Compare to the pic below-the owner argues her dog is athletic.



Looks like an angus bull.


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Looks like an angus bull.


An angus bull would look more fit... I'd say Packerland packing ready... *moooo*

Angie


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## TroyW (Nov 27, 2006)

That can't really be a competing conformation dog can it. That's just friggin crazy
TroyW


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Page said:


> I guess it felt for a second like I am trying to make my way to a middle ground and the other side seems to be throwing stones this way, so why not retreat back to my safe corner with my "conformation only" folks? Why make the effort? - I know that all sounds really dramatic. The creative writer in me is just trying to paint a colorful picture to best illustrate the thread from a certain point of view.
> 
> Of course I won't go running back to my corner. I really do desire to do it all and am so excited about the training we are currently doing.  I just wish I had started earlier. It's hard when you are so focussed on a goal (training wise, and money wise) to spread out and cover more ground all at once.


You might want to keep in mind what an old cattleman told me years ago. "If you stand in the middle of the road, you will be hit by cars going in both directions." I guess I am just willing to accept the abuse.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Page said:


> I agree with this 100%.
> 
> I wasn't able to watch the video because I couldn't access the site from this computer, but this thread honestly makes me wonder why I even want to train my dogs for hunt tests if you guys will always look down on my dogs and me. Why waste the time and money if I will never be taken seriously?
> 
> ...



You won't get any negative remarks from me! He's a darned good rep of the standard, imo.  Of course, too bad he's yellow. LOL! BTW--- I just spent over an hour brushing (well, actually "Furminating") my crew. Holy cow, a couple of them are skinny looking all of a sudden!!!! Coat REALLY does add weight to the appearance of a lab and I don't even HAVE that much coat here (mine are mostly house dogs and field or field/show blend). 
Anne


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## GoodDog (Oct 15, 2007)

I am on board with WindyCanyon. Very nice looking dog. I am of the same thought that you can have your cake and eat it too. It is difficult though, as was mentioned before about standing in the middle of the road, great quote by the way. It is true that trial dogs, as a rule are better at HT/FT's, that is what they where breed for, and pure show dogs are probably hitting the flavor of the month in the show ring better. However, there does seem to be an increase in desire for the moderate lab with the right conformation and still a good hunting dog. I too started with FT dogs, and after years of loving them, and having different health issues, ie HD, and neroulogical problems, not on all of them, just a couple, wanted to better my gene pool for the sake of the dogs. One of the things I have really noticed on my FT dogs are their poor coat's. I duck/goose hunt all season here in Kansas and late season all but big water and rivers are frozen, so poor coat equals cold, miserable, but willing, dog. It really becomes dangerous for the dogs. So everyone needs to be smart about temps, but obviously coat quality comes into play. I love all labs, especially working dogs. My current dogs include my 10 year old FT Chocolate Bitch, my 2 year old dog out of Ch/MH Waterbound lock on Laddy and a MH bitch out of Ch/MH Belle's Tradition Obroad Reach, and my 1 year old black bitch, she has some filling out to do yet, out of Am/Can Ch/MH Lor-als Got Our Power Play and Am/Can Ch/MH Pembroke Black Mist Poplar Forest. My wife took these pics today, the ribbons with my yellow male are from this fall, he is running seniors now and starting to show him, my BLF is running juniors and starting her show career too. I hunt my dogs, a lot. Not to mention I run them at the largest pheasant ranch in Kansas. Last Saturday we ran a 500 bird European hunt in 4 hours,that was lot of birds. So tell me my dogs can't retrieve all day, they retrieve more birds in a single weekend than most do all year. The smallest hunt is 300 birds, and we run Sat/Sun/Mon. Granted there are 10 dog handlers, but it is a lot of shooting, and retrieving. They actually hit 375 last Saturday. So as you can see I am all about the all around dog, and if you have a good dog and would like to run a big European pheasant hunt, give me a shout, it is a blast! The only negative thing as all have said is I will probably need to put a few pounds on my dogs for the show ring, but that is tough to do when they are retrieving so many pheasants. I too don't understand the weight issue, if your going to put it in the breed standard, then follow it, just like the height limits.


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## J. Torrey (Nov 11, 2007)

Page said:


> I agree with this 100%.
> 
> I wasn't able to watch the video because I couldn't access the site from this computer, but this thread honestly makes me wonder why I even want to train my dogs for hunt tests if you guys will always look down on my dogs and me. Why waste the time and money if I will never be taken seriously?
> 
> ...


Stick with it. If it was easy, more people would be doing it. Good breeders don't base there decisions on public opinion. Most of the persons making mean comments have never owned a show dog. Nor have they taken the time to research the breeding programs. I looked into it, in order to learn about other aspects of our breed. I came a way with a new respect for there event and breeding programs. 

They are not trial dogs and where not bred to be trial dogs. 

Good Luck.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I have dabbled in some field/bench mixes but Mary Howley is a master at those combos. I have a litter now that went nuts for wings the first time they got them as much as any all field bred litter and an older litter by the same sire is training extremely well. These pups would't go in the show ring but they show improvements in coat, head, and tail but do not lose anything in the field. The bitches bred are out of Viking. My goal is not to enter the show ring, but maybe with the show ring putting up the moderate Lab, it might be possible again. I just don't like putting the weight on them. I hope the ring goes from the moderate Lab to recognizing athletic and muscle definition as being beautiful. This is what I don't see in the ring. They are interested in coat and movement but that's what I love about frield dogs is they are in shape and defined.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

> As Soon as the Judges stop placing these Labs looking the way they do...then you'll see the trend shift...Until then...they'll stay the same as they are and as placed...


In defense of some of the judges, they can only put up what is brought to them. It would take a very well-known and respected judge to dismiss an entire class for lack of merit. Otherwise, they can only place the dogs brought to them. If some judges were given a choice they just might use a more moderate specimen.

As a side note, I had entered my current lab in a show as a puppy. He is entirely field bred for 2-3 generations. His sire is Tiger Mcbunn. When we mentioned it to the breeder they laughed and said we were crazy. This breeder started with show bred labs.

Our competitive nature is such that we seek puppies from litters that we hope will give us the best chance of being competitive. Rarely do I read people discussing about being keepers of the breed.

Tom


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Good luck with your pup...

You must know that many of those judges produce exactly what they put up in the ring. The standard is what they produce...ie: beauty is in the eye of the beholder...


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## sandyriver (Feb 24, 2008)

Okay, from my perspective I think it is just miss leading when Westminster shows a hungting lab with a duck in mouth when none IF very few of the labs in the show actually have a JH title or even an obedience title. Enough said...

I was pleased to see that more of the Sporting Group breeds did have JH titles this year. AKC has ruined some breeds in the past and I am also one that worries about the lab...just got to keep getting the moderate labs out there in the ring!!!

I like the yellow that Anne posted....I've seen some blobby black creatures like the other lab picture still out there in the show rings also....so it still occurs sometimes...okay maybe not as fat but still hefty.

AKC it appears to me can be kind of 'trendy', so just got to keep working on being a trend setter....Thank you to all who get their moderate labs trained and out there for people to see.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

sandyriver said:


> Okay, from my perspective I think it is just miss leading when Westminster shows a hungting lab with a duck in mouth when none IF very few of the labs in the show actually have a JH title or even an obedience title. Enough said...
> 
> I was pleased to see that more of the Sporting Group breeds did have JH titles this year. AKC has ruined some breeds in the past and I am also one that worries about the lab...just got to keep getting the moderate labs out there in the ring!!!
> 
> ...


That was Page's boy I think... 

I just want to reiterate, it's NOT the AKC who is ruining the breed. The judges can only judge what is brought into their rings. Some will withhold ribbons but they are few and far between (it really makes for an uncomfortable situation if you happen to be in that ring). Some will wicket, but usually that requires an exhibitor to call the wicket. There is also a fair amount of wiggle room in the interpretation of the standard. Some judges will penalize excess weight but to be honest, fat is a temporary thing-- fat can be lost, and so judges tend to base most of their importance on permanent features like balanced angulation, temperament, topline, proper coat, tail, bad bites, multiple missing molars, yaddy ya...

I personally think as more folks embrace the Conformation Certificate (geared toward the performance folks), the more educated we will become on this end too. When I first started in labs, I liked a certain look because that is the look that DU, etc, advertised. Now, I look at some of those dogs and realize they had serious shortcomings. I still like an athletic dog, but they have to have fronts, etc, that look like labs and not Pointers. 

There are some really nice field dogs represented on this forum that I hope will find a Conformation Certificate to enter at hunt tests or field trials. It's a very casual environment, and the judges have been very kind and patient.  Usually folks come out of the CC w/ a greater understanding of the attributes and short comings of their dogs, and can use that info for future decisions.


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

Last night on a local news program, they did a story about Westminster because 15 of the dogs entered were from Maine. They talked with the owner of a lab, etc ,etc. But the part I thought was really interesting was that they interviewed this VERY eldery lady who works the show as a ring steward and has worked it for I think they said 50 years. She commented that the show labs these days are much shorter and chunkier than they used to be and she did not much like them how they are shown today. The guy from Maine doing the interview even said these labs at Westminster looked nothing like the labs he hunts over back home.

Andy


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## Roger Perry (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey, give the show lab that made it to the finals a break. After all, it came from Boca Raton, Fl. and it had a Junior Hunter title . Probably even ran in the Treasure Coast Hunt Test at least 10 or 12 times to get the title. Funny though, after the show dogs get their JH you never see them again trying for their SR title.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Roger Perry said:


> Hey, give the show lab that made it to the finals a break. After all, it came from Boca Raton, Fl. and it had a Junior Hunter title . Probably even ran in the Treasure Coast Hunt Test at least 10 or 12 times.


Wow, tough training down there w/ the gators, eh??? My parents used to winter there at the Polo club.... no place for a lab imo esp not after one of the tennis pro's little dogs came up missing!  Rattlers and ticks seem pretty mild by comparison.


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## Roger Perry (Nov 6, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Wow, tough training down there w/ the gators, eh??? My parents used to winter there at the Polo club.... no place for a lab imo esp not after one of the tennis pro's little dogs came up missing!  Rattlers and ticks seem pretty mild by comparison.



Winter is almost over and we have not had any really cold weather yet. It has been in the mid to high eighty's in Dec, Jan, and Feb. Almost too hot to train. It only gets about 10 to 12 degrees warmer in the summer time. Been lucky with gators though. I have not seen one for more than a year where I train. However, in the next few months will be breeding season for them and they will be moving around more. 
In the years I have been training in So. Florida I have yet to see a cotton mouth or rattler yet, knock on wood.


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