# For the fire breather dog owners



## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

When you tell your dog to heel out of the holding blind to the line.....How many times do you say the command before you actually get there?


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Only once. That's all the time it takes until it hits the line before me 
Owner of a now deceased Cosmo girl.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I have plantar faciitis in my right foot so I am always complaining about my "heal" on the way to the line. Almost every time I put weight on my right heal.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

One of the judges this wkd. at a hunt test remarked on all the "heel, heel, heel, HEEL, HEEL!" going on as dogs came to the line so I paid attention to my own dog and said heel once when we left the holding blind and guess what, she only tried to forge once, and I backed up a step (she knows what that means!) and we got there with only the one command. It's a hard habit to break, even if you have a dog that is pretty obedient.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I don't know if I'd consider my dog a firebreather, but she's not low maintenance, either. I say heel to come out of the blind, and if I have to say it again, she's in trouble with Mr. Tri-Tronics. I find it much easier to establish and uphold a standard going to the line/out of the holding blind than I do with the dog sitting on the mat.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

In training, I say it once. In a test, I say it as many times as it takes.

In both, before I come out of the blind, I take the lead off, step a couple steps back, heel the dog back, and get a solid and properly positioned sit before I proceed to the line. I feel like if I don't get that sit, there is no way I'll get anything else once we leave the blind.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

My FB and I had a lot of trouble a year ago with holding blinds.... we worked very hard and by GOD we got through it and looked good doing so this spring. 
How many times I said, Heel, not sure. I leave with HERE. though. he was pretty good . from what we were last fall, he was an angel!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

captainjack said:


> In training, I say it once. In a test, I say it as many times as it takes.
> 
> In both, before I come out of the blind, I take the lead off, step a couple steps back, heel the dog back, and get a solid and properly positioned sit before I proceed to the line. I feel like if I don't get that sit, there is no way I'll get anything else once we leave the blind.


I have the same basic pre-shot routine. As we get close to running dog stays in the holding blind while I move to the spot I want us to start to the line (which hopefully gives him a good look at the bird I want him to have a good look and, if possible, hide that pesky flyer station).

However, in a trial I try to minimize how often I say it. If I stop he will back up to me--at least until he makes the final jump to the mat. In training, he gets a 'Heel' with a stick if he surges ahead at all, so we probably say it way more in training.

Randy, I recall you saying before that you don't even own a stick and I recall when I trained with you down in Cheraw a couple of years ago that you prefer training tabs and collars. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts. My Cosmo critter and I work on line manners more than anything else, I think.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

In the past, I would repeat the commands over and over again.

Now, every time I repeat one, I am severely reprimanded to not teach the dog to ignor commands.

I am better , but have a long ways to go.
Its habit, and very hard to break.


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## sunnydee (Oct 15, 2009)

At one master hunt tests my heals were so loud and firm that the judges give me a warning for borderline intimidation. I just assumed that the judges felt intimidated because it sure wasn’t my fire breathing dog.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

With my older dog who is a fire breather it wouldn't matter if you said "heel" once or 60 times he wouldn't mind you. He would keep on trucking and you in tow if possible! If he did obey he would be doing his Finished title HRC. He had some fabulous runs and work when we got the blind to the line issue over with. My 3 yo not like that at all.  Oh I remember those days couldn't wait to get to the line. Tried going over the holding blind or under. One judge said he hoped my next dog would be quieter!!
Randy What is the answer to your question or what is the reason behind the question- would love to say heel only once!!!!


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## verne socks (Feb 11, 2010)

Honestly I have to say I say "heel" about 6 times on way to the line at a field trial......if I don't he gets to the line before me and then is more on his own from that point. Something I will work on all his life...In training all it takes is once and a nick for a reminder. He knows the difference between training and trials - 2 1/2 years old now but don't see him slowing down much!


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## Golden Gibby (Jun 27, 2011)

This is something we have been working on all year. When we work on blind drills at home I rarely say it more than one time. At the last test we were at he walked from the truck with me to the first holding blind with slack in the lead, no problems. Then from the first holding blind to the last holding blind I told him to heel one time and everything was again just fine. Then we were called out of the holding blind to the line, as soon as we started towards the line he tried to drag me to the line and made no attempt to heel. I may have said heel 3, 4, or 50 times, stopping and making him back up to me. Somewhere in the 25 feet to the line we were notified we failed due to control issues. At this point while returning to the truck he heeled perfectly. Its very frustrating knowing we can do the work IF we can get to the line.
As far as being a fire breather, I don't know if he is or not I can just say he hunts and trains well with a good work ethic, but he can wear me out at a test.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I have yet to run a test, but when we do next spring I fear this will be us. He will start in Junior, mainly because I need the line time, but he is probably doing middling Senior work at this point. If I can get him calmed down I know he can do the work, but I would not be at all surprised if I have to make the dreaded "Walk of Shame" to pick him up at least once. 

Randy, I am curious about your use of the collar instead of the stick. It seemed to me that the collar only made my dog's problems worse going to the line.



Golden Gibby said:


> This is something we have been working on all year. When we work on blind drills at home I rarely say it more than one time. At the last test we were at he walked from the truck with me to the first holding blind with slack in the lead, no problems. Then from the first holding blind to the last holding blind I told him to heel one time and everything was again just fine. Then we were called out of the holding blind to the line, as soon as we started towards the line he tried to drag me to the line and made no attempt to heel. I may have said heel 3, 4, or 50 times, stopping and making him back up to me. Somewhere in the 25 feet to the line we were notified we failed due to control issues. At this point while returning to the truck he heeled perfectly. Its very frustrating knowing we can do the work IF we can get to the line.
> As far as being a fire breather, I don't know if he is or not I can just say he hunts and trains well with a good work ethic, but he can wear me out at a test.


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

captainjack said:


> In training, I say it once. In a test, I say it as many times as it takes.
> 
> In both, before I come out of the blind, I take the lead off, step a couple steps back, heel the dog back, and get a solid and properly positioned sit before I proceed to the line. I feel like if I don't get that sit, there is no way I'll get anything else once we leave the blind.


This is the same routine I started using with my "breaker". Holding blind drills and more holding blind drills with minimal corrections on the actual working line now. 

Use the command word one time. If the dog doesn't comply to either sit or heel, it warrants an immediate correction with a choke chain or pinch collar then back up to the previous holding blind. By the time we make it to the line, compliance is no longer an option and we can focus on marking instead of line manners.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Am I the only one with a fire breather that heels better without the lead than with it on? 
We work on heeling more than anything and I suspect we will have to continue to do so.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm with you. I can get to the line no problem and I don't say heel at all. I can take my time getting there as well. When the marks start going off all bets are off. This is where I struggle. Stop much dog and not enough trainer here.


laker said:


> Am I the only one with a fire breather that heels better without the lead than with it on?
> We work on heeling more than anything and I suspect we will have to continue to do so.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Once.
Unless I say it again.


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## Lonnie Spann (May 14, 2012)

I have a firebreather that will be 6 in November. I NEVER put him on lead from the truck to the holding blind. He heels great from the truck to the holding blind. Upon leaving the holding blind I say "heel" and he will half-heartedly heel for about half the distance to the line. Often he is waiting on me at the bucket.

Lonster


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??


No I have never had noise and it would be rare he would break but then again we have only got to Seasoned level with him.Not being steady from the holding blind to the line you start out wrong. Probably could creep or break if the dog thinks he can rush to the line continuously over time and if the stakes are higher (finished test, flyers or honoring)!! If you run the dog you are rewarding them! That is why I quit running him so we did not create any more problems. but it is a shame because many dogs such as mine could have done much better.


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## DaveHare (Sep 17, 2011)

MooseGooser said:


> In the past, I would repeat the commands over and over again.
> 
> Now, every time I repeat one, I am severely reprimanded to not teach the dog to ignor commands.
> 
> ...


 Goose,you know the old saying give an inch take a mile,I have learned the hard way. Give an inch lose two miles, it all starts with control the minute they get out of the truck!!!second part control to the holding blind if you can't get that control your toast on the line I'm very lucky to have a trainer in Kenny Trott that works with me all the time with Otto!! no guns go off if I have lost control .We have a long way too go but it's getting better. If you lose them when they are young you may never get them back!!!! I know this because I OWN a fire breather P.S No noise thank you for that Marcy Wright 
Dave Hare


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## verne socks (Feb 11, 2010)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??


No noise here either.....but creeping YES! Again, something I will have to deal with his whole life probably. A high standard in training along with consistant training seems to help. Unfortunately I can only train twice per week a lot of times....


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??


Yes!!!

I did have noise! From the dog

Once I got to the line,and the birds stated Falling,I got foot dancing ,and "Wooky whining",till she got sent.


S


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Most definitely. I also think that other issues are related such as freezing, crunching & cast refusals.


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## Golden Gibby (Jun 27, 2011)

Noise has not been a problem for us, but creeping is something I have to watch for all the time.
I'm not sure if the heeling issues relate to our creeping problem of not. Because in training the heeling goes ok but I have to watch him for creeping. But at a test I have issues in both areas.


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## P J (Dec 10, 2009)

She will heel better off lead from the truck to the holding blind, when on lead she pulls like a mule! I make sure i have established a solid sit in the holding blind before I step out and call her to a heel. I have better results doing that. 

I don't like repeating commands when I can't give a correction, so blind drills in the yard and strict enforcement when training with a group.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? *What do you think??*



Yes........


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Yes, Whinning in the blind and to the line. Generally better after I say "watch". Creeping yes; breaking not for a long time (a couple times on honor as an 18 month old in an HRC test when the working dog was not sent promptly).


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I have only gotten noise out of my girl once and that was while out hunting we shot 4 birds and she was waiting to be sent and one of them was swimming and flapping about 15 ft away from our blind. pretty funny to see. 

As far as heeling i probably say it 3 to 4 times but she stays close when marks are thrown.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??





Scott Adams said:


> Most definitely. I also think that other issues are related such as freezing, crunching & cast refusals.


Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. In that order.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??


No noise
No breaking
No creeping
No issues with honoring
But heeling is by far the hardest thing in the world for him...


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

This post made me think about how I was attempting to handle this issue, and I realized that I had not ever really made my dog responsible for making sure he stayed at heel. So I devised an experiment. 

I took my dog running last night, and right before I started I told him to "heel". After that, if he got ahead or behind I gave him a continuous burn on 1 medium. I don't think I said "heel" again until I needed to get him back after releasing him to go to the bathroom. 

Remarkably, he started paying a lot more attention to me and making sure he stayed at heel. I plan to continue this, making it his job to stay at heel, instead of making it my job to continuously warn him when he is about to violate the standard. Unless of course you guys tell me I am headed for trouble. I would also think that the burn would eventually become a nick. 

If I can get him to the line under control, we might be able to get somewhere.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Are you sure he was even feeling the collar pressure? I can barely notice a high one on the tips of my finger.


RookieTrainer said:


> This post made me think about how I was attempting to handle this issue, and I realized that I had not ever really made my dog responsible for making sure he stayed at heel. So I devised an experiment.
> 
> I took my dog running last night, and right before I started I told him to "heel". After that, if he got ahead or behind I gave him a continuous burn on 1 medium. I don't think I said "heel" again until I needed to get him back after releasing him to go to the bathroom.
> 
> ...


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

captainjack said:


> In training, I say it once. In a test, I say it as many times as it takes.
> 
> In both, before I come out of the blind, I take the lead off, step a couple steps back, heel the dog back, and get a solid and properly positioned sit before I proceed to the line. I feel like if I don't get that sit, there is no way I'll get anything else once we leave the blind.


The 2nd part is what I do. I watched/worked at tests for 2 years before I ran a dog. My biggest pet peeve was watching handlers (especially in master) that said heel all the way to the line and the dog barely paid attention, let alone actually heeled. 

From the time my now 4 yo was a pup I worked with him to sit in the blind (facing out) while I backed out several feet. I then hold my left arm straight out to my side and say "heel" and he comes out and spins to heel and sits. I then say "heel" as I move to the line. If he gets ahead of me, I stop but say nothing. Through training he has learned to look for me and, if I'm not there, back up to where I am. Once he's back at my side I continue forward. Rarely is it an issue though. Even at our last master, after having run the qual on Friday, one of the judges, after I thanked him when the last bird of the 3rd series was picked up, commented that Ace had the best line manners in the flight and he specifically commented that I didn't have to say "heel" several times on the way to the line.


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

*Depends on the day and which Fire Breather!! No noise, unless one decides to talk to me, not bark talk to me. Creep can come in, usually depends on how much I have been able to train and/or how close the flyer is  When I leave the blind, I do use heel and sit on the way to the line, do not want to lose control at that point or your just wishing in one and well you know what your doing in the other!! This is one thing to keep in mind as a judge when you write down on the piece of paper, dog on mat for all sends......... One trial I sat on honor for awhile as one dog was making his way back to the mat for the initial send. Fellow RTF'er was on the line and I believe there was a bet on the over/under of how many times he would have to use heel before the send.....If he wishes to expand on this I am sure he will. Buck sat on honor with no problems and when the dog got back to the mat he did a nice job on the test. Just something to remember as a judge.

Love my dogs regards,

Aaron*


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

As for verbal’s leaving the holding blind. Once. Give a verbal sit with hand out, step-back, take two steps past the holding blind and invite the dog to join me. Rarely have to remind the dogs but on a rare occasion a SSSsssssssst under my breath is usually all it takes going to the line.

As a handler I say as little as possible to anyone once we are in the holding blind and not until we are done and past the gallery.


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## Ray Kirkpatrick (Sep 24, 2010)

Shoot! I feel so much better now after reading everyone else's comments. My boy isn't half as bad as I thought he was.
"Normal is as normal does" or something like that....


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Heel doesn't work, I don't think he can hear it, not sure he knows what sit means either. My new tactic is Down, harder to lunge ahead with butt, chest and front legs on the ground, not impossible but harder. Plus when he goes into down, forward momentum stops, I can get in front of him and then call him to the line, which is a lot better than trying to keep up. I'll even put him on a down to mark, he always see the marks and that way I got 4 positions before breaking, Down, sit up, dancing-creep, break, rather than just creep & break, Most tests only have 3 marks so in theory he won't make it to break before I can say something, it's work so far but he sure does make it to dancing-creep


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Aaron Homburg said:


> *Depends on the day and which Fire Breather!! No noise, unless one decides to talk to me, not bark talk to me. Creep can come in, usually depends on how much I have been able to train and/or how close the flyer is  When I leave the blind, I do use heel and sit on the way to the line, do not want to lose control at that point or your just wishing in one and well you know what your doing in the other!! This is one thing to keep in mind as a judge when you write down on the piece of paper, dog on mat for all sends......... One trial I sat on honor for awhile as one dog was making his way back to the mat for the initial send. Fellow RTF'er was on the line and I believe there was a bet on the over/under of how many times he would have to use heel before the send.....If he wishes to expand on this I am sure he will. Buck sat on honor with no problems and when the dog got back to the mat he did a nice job on the test. Just something to remember as a judge.
> 
> Love my dogs regards,
> 
> Aaron*


Judge: reheel your dog please

He who is not to be mentioned: That's about a 10 NO-HERE, are you sure you want me to get him back?

Judge: Yes

I could drink beer and listen to his stories all night long!


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Aaron Homburg said:


> * Buck sat on honor with no problems and when the dog got back to the mat he did a nice job on the test. Just something to remember as a judge.
> 
> Love my dogs regards,
> 
> Aaron*


He didn't get up to get a better whiff of the running dogs butt? or is that just with the "other" handler


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??


For mine, no noise. Creeping but no breaking. Well, he did once but that was at a HT and he was in a layout blind on the honor and it was a test that if he had not broke then he would have eventually--in fact I don't think I would want a dog that didn't break in that test .

We have made great strides and noticed a direct correlation between him sitting at the line and watching the marks go down and getting called back to the next series. If we keep improving, I might have to do some water training with him


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## Sophie Gundog (Apr 28, 2010)

Wow what an journey getting to the position of starting to become a team, and the holding blinds were a big step , keeping a standard , we here it a lot , but for a new trainer like myself it has to be done, each time always .. it leads to better work all down the path ....


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

RookieTrainer said:


> This post made me think about how I was attempting to handle this issue, and I realized that I had not ever really made my dog responsible for making sure he stayed at heel. So I devised an experiment.
> 
> I took my dog running last night, and right before I started I told him to "heel". After that, if he got ahead or behind I gave him a continuous burn on 1 medium. I don't think I said "heel" again until I needed to get him back after releasing him to go to the bathroom.
> 
> ...


I started doing the exact same thing and it made a big difference. I'll give him one "heel" and after that *he* better pay attention to *me* or he gets nicked.
Before I started using this method he would heel at my command but then he would gradually get out in front until I said heel again.
He wasn't really focusing on me at all.
I needed him to look at *me* and follow *my* lead. So if he gets out in front he'll get nicked with no warning.
It has worked very well.


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## 1morex (Aug 10, 2010)

This is the easiest command in my bag of tools I teach. BUT one must do it right when they are just pups, if you let the young dog take you for a walk and form terrible habits it is very difficult to undo. So many people are in such a hurry to do other things they half azz a lot of the basics and it haunts them.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

It's interesting to see that some people believe multiple commands do cause noise among other issues with dogs. If you say sit..sit..sit and heel...heel...heel who's winning the dog or handler?? Probably the dog!! So if the dog doesn't have to listen by the truck, doesn't listen to and in the blind, the line now becomes another place where the dog doesn't have to listen again so they keep pushing and pushing until the handler gives in. Now what to do?? Give up? Sell the dog? Make excuses why your dog can't ever be fixed?? 
Most times I get the fire breathers in for noise/line issues the remedy is a new strict obedience program, AGAIN...a strict obedience program!!! 
Another question.....You rush home from work, what's more important to you marks and blinds or good solid field obedience with your dog?? Randy


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

The part about rushing home to get in marks and blinds applies to me. I can honestly say I keep a high standard when it comes to the field work. It's alway a rush from the truck to the line to beat dark and get all the dogs run. Never is there any time alloyed for working on the little things like ob. My dog broke in the third this weekend in a master. It was fun watching him hammer the work in the first two series but it's sucks watching him break in the third. This particular dog runs under the highest standards I know how to keep in the field. Maybe if I would put that kind of emphasis on obedience we wouldn't have the line manner issues we have now.


Randy Bohn said:


> It's interesting to see that some people believe multiple commands do cause noise among other issues with dogs. If you say sit..sit..sit and heel...heel...heel who's winning the dog or handler?? Probably the dog!! So if the dog doesn't have to listen by the truck, doesn't listen to and in the blind, the line now becomes another place where the dog doesn't have to listen again so they keep pushing and pushing until the handler gives in. Now what to do?? Give up? Sell the dog? Make excuses why your dog can't ever be fixed??
> Most times I get the fire breathers in for noise/line issues the remedy is a new strict obedience program, AGAIN...a strict obedience program!!!
> Another question.....You rush home from work, what's more important to you marks and blinds or good solid field obedience with your dog?? Randy


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## Splash_em (Apr 23, 2009)

Randy Bohn said:


> Another question.....You rush home from work, what's more important to you marks and blinds or good solid field obedience with your dog?? Randy


Solid field obedience. 

The rush to run helps create a mind set of Ready, Set, and Go that Fido grows accustomed to because we allow it to happen. 

As soon as I changed my thinking and started standing in holding blinds in the evening and going for walks, everything got better. His bouts of self employment were dealt with a solid correction instead of multiple nags. 

Good thread Randy.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have had dogs where too much insistence on obedience at trial actually got them higher. So I let them forge some, and maybe beat me to the mat - knowing that by doing so - I would get a better sit on the mat.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

I think also if you train alone a lot, it's very easy to slip into a habit of repeating commands. And then your dog starts to ignore the first, second or third command. If they are ignoring the commands at home, they sure aren't going to magically change to a tractable obedient player leaving the holding blind under judgment. A wise person once told me that one good correction works better to change behavior than constant nagging. The same goes for the human part of the team, too...it's definitely a big help to do obedience training with other people, especially competition obedience types because double command = disqualification at obedience trials. Thanks for bringing this up, Randy. It's easy to think it's just the dog that needs the training!


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## Bartona500 (May 23, 2011)

I like to say heel once, even in training. If the dog gets ahead, I give a correction then repeat "heel." I spent 7-10 minutes with every dog doing only OB every morning when they get off the trailer. After a week or so, dogs stop jumping out of the trailer 90mph looking for marks. Most get out, heel, and sit. These few minutes of controlled OB are usually 75% heel work.

When I started focusing so much on OB, I noticed big improvements in steadiness and handling.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Ted Shih said:


> I have had dogs where too much insistence on obedience at trial actually got them higher. So I let them forge some, and maybe beat me to the mat - knowing that by doing so - I would get a better sit on the mat.


Very interesting comment. Is this common practice? I think you're right and will pay attention to dogs and handlers at the next trial/test.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I have had dogs where too much _*insistence on obedience at trial*_ actually got them higher. So I let them forge some, and maybe beat me to the mat - knowing that by doing so - I would get a better sit on the mat.


 But Ted , do you let them do this in training?


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## D&S Retrievers (Jul 2, 2008)

randy bohn said:


> it's interesting to see that some people believe multiple commands do cause noise among other issues with dogs. If you say sit..sit..sit and heel...heel...heel who's winning the dog or handler?? Probably the dog!! So if the dog doesn't have to listen by the truck, doesn't listen to and in the blind, the line now becomes another place where the dog doesn't have to listen again so they keep pushing and pushing until the handler gives in. Now what to do?? Give up? Sell the dog? Make excuses why your dog can't ever be fixed??
> Most times i get the fire breathers in for noise/line issues the remedy is a new strict obedience program, again...a strict obedience program!!!
> Another question.....you rush home from work, what's more important to you marks and blinds or good solid field obedience with your dog?? Randy



amen! Amen!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Randy Bohn said:


> Another question.....You rush home from work, what's more important to you marks and blinds or good solid field obedience with your dog?? Randy


This summer we started strict obedience on the firebreather. For several months the evening routine has been basically Hillmann's traffic cop. Our regular training has been limited by the heat anyway, but since it has cooled off and we have gotten out more, he is almost like a different dog. Training partners have commented on it. While we have not done it at a trial yet--group training days are the most chaos so far--he sits and watches the birds from the mat. It may be worse when we run a trial, but it is a big improvement. When we started, the judges asked us to re-heel every time. We worked and worked as part of running marks and blinds and it got better (tail at least on the mat when the last bird hit) but focusing only on obedience has made so far a quantum leap.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Randy Bohn said:


> ....... AGAIN...a strict obedience program!!!
> Another question.....You rush home from work, what's more important to you marks and blinds or good solid field obedience with your dog?? Randy


The issue I am most guilty of is rushing when with the training group Randy. When alone, I will take the time at the truck, at the dog box, airing, collaring, obedience ing, and holding blind ing. But put me in a group and I gotta get to the line. I gotta run and take my turn in the field. I can work on OB anytime. Yet that “anytime” gets pushed back and rescheduled and overlooked. But the dog is still getting birds. So at times I feel my dog may think. “These pesky haphazard standards sometimes they are here, other times not. Don’t matter because no matter what I am still going to get to run and swim and fetch!” Do you see this trap I fall into often Randy? With other folk?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

My observation is that folks with their first few dogs are so into watching their dog run marks, blinds, pick up birds that is all they want to do. They lose focus on the OB portion, tolerate bad behaviors all because they want the dog to get the bird. When they do actually do something along the OB lines, they either correct once and give up or nag the dog, thus getting to Randy's original question of how many times do you say heel.

/Paul


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I have the same problem. After work training groups are great for getting in a rush.


Ken Bora said:


> The issue I am most guilty of is rushing when with the training group Randy. When alone, I will take the time at the truck, at the dog box, airing, collaring, obedience ing, and holding blind ing. But put me in a group and I gotta get to the line. I gotta run and take my turn in the field. I can work on OB anytime. Yet that “anytime” gets pushed back and rescheduled and overlooked. But the dog is still getting birds. So at times I feel my dog may think. “These pesky haphazard standards sometimes they are here, other times not. Don’t matter because no matter what I am still going to get to run and swim and fetch!” Do you see this trap I fall into often Randy? With other folk?


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Most amateurs fall into the trap of rushing because of the time of year(Fall) Remember that no matter amateur or pro every dog has issues sooner or later. If your with an amateur group and they aren't willing to understand your issues they must have forgotten the day when their dog had issues and you were patient. Think of things on how to save time...
Example: As a dog trainer you should watch your weather/wind forecast everyday, you know where you want the gun stations put while your sitting at work, usually it's the same person at the training site first all the time, call them and tell them what you want to work on and the set up can be ready when you get there. By fall the dog can either mark or not, so concentrate on weak points only not the whole triple, work key doubles, do 2 blinds instead of 3 or 4. Small pieces instead of big pieces will be more relaxing for everyone....Randy


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> The issue I am most guilty of is rushing when with the training group Randy. When alone, I will take the time at the truck, at the dog box, airing, collaring, obedience ing, and holding blind ing. But put me in a group and I gotta get to the line. I gotta run and take my turn in the field. I can work on OB anytime. Yet that “anytime” gets pushed back and rescheduled and overlooked. But the dog is still getting birds. So at times I feel my dog may think. “These pesky haphazard standards sometimes they are here, other times not. Don’t matter because no matter what I am still going to get to run and swim and fetch!” Do you see this trap I fall into often Randy? With other folk?


And, when you're alone, Ken, how does the OB work for you? Pretty easy to make the dog "hup to" when you have plenty of time, no distractions, right? So, when you're with a group isn't the atmoshpere a bit more like test/trial day? i.e. more people, more dogs, feeling rushed, more distractions/excitement? Seems to me, that would be the most appropriate time to work on it. Seems like if you can get better OB then, the better chance you have getting it on test/trial day. You're right, you CAN do OB anytime. But, to do it thoroughly, gotta prove it out, and "hold your standard" in that type of atmosphere. Cuz if it doesn't work there, it ain't gonna work on test day. And, you drive home from the test, with no radio on, but still the noisiest ride you can imagine, thinking, "but this dog does well with OB. I've seen it, but no one else has." Training group has to be willing to let you take the time you need, the same for OB as for throwing marks. Yep, it's an easy trap to fall into, cuz you're the kind of guy who wants make sure you get out there and work hard for the members in your group. Should work both ways. Very rarely does every dog in the group need to work on the same exact thing. So, everybody gets their turn to work on whatever their dog needs at the time.


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## wheelhorse (Nov 13, 2005)

I don't have a fire breather, but was reading about how we don't ask for obedience to and from the line. This evening, before I ran a couple of blinds, I made sure that my boy heeled correctly and even did a small heel pattern. 

It was amazing how much more responsive and correct he was when handled on the blinds.

So not just fire breathers benefit from strict adherence to the rules.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Randy Bohn said:


> Example: As a dog trainer you should watch your weather/wind forecast everyday, you know where you want the gun stations put while your sitting at work, usually it's the same person at the training site first all the time, call them and tell them what you want to work on and the set up can be ready when you get there.


Wow. Seriously?


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

As serious as i can be Jerry yes....Y???


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## Dan Wegner (Jul 7, 2006)

Excellent discussion! I have one dog that is a situational firebreather (short exciting birds) and another that is pumped and raring to go in any situation. I try to maintain a consistently high standard for obedience and as a result, don't have to battle the dogs everytime. They know what is expected in order to be.able to get their birds.

The best approach I've seen was on Dave Rorem's DVD and at his seminar. It all starts when you get the dog out of the truck and make your way to the blind and eventually, the line. If you aren't on the same page there, you don't stand a chance at doing the rest of the set-up successfully.

The dogs learn a Ready, Set, Go sequence. Rather than applying allot of stick or collar pressure, why not simply change the sequence and alter their expectations? I'm surprised that nobody has suggested having the gunners pick up their birds and heeling the disobedient dog off-line and trying again later in the training session. It really makes quite an impression on a dog that is used to being rewarded, no matter what.

If you continue to reward the bad behavior with a retrieve after many corrections, you may feel like you won the battle, but the war rages on.

I train with a couple of good guys with talented dogs who take control from the holding blind on. Because the dogs don't sit well on line (bouncing, dancing feet, creeping out...), the handler has no chance to move or influence them to ensure they get a good look at the next bird and it sometimes results in so-so marks that could've been great had the dog been under control and working with the handler as a team.

It all starts at the line!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Amateurs like me don't know how to put together a good setup. I can barely tell which way the winds blowing. 

I follow the leader.


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## 8mmag (Jan 1, 2010)

Dan Wegner said:


> I train with a couple of good guys with talented dogs who take control from the holding blind on. Because the dogs don't sit well on line (bouncing, dancing feet, creeping out...), the handler has no chance to move or influence them to ensure they get a good look at the next bird and it sometimes results in so-so marks that could've been great had the dog been under control and working with the handler as a team.


Who you talkin' 'bout Dan? 

Someone here has a great line in their sig, "All Credit Goes to the Dog, All Failure Belongs to the Trainer"...sooo true! My sig is also correct...for now but not forever. I picked my player, now I have to make him a teammate too.  but admitting your problem is step one toward recovery, at least that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

FinnLandR said:


> I agree.
> 
> This is what the group I train with does: a few days before we email each other and get a group agreement on the general issues we want to work on, and the first person who arrives that evening sets up the training area.
> 
> If the people you train with aren't willing to do this, I'd find new people to train with.


If the people I trained with called me to put in their order for what they want to run and planned to have me set it up since I'm the one that's usually there early, I sure would find someone else to train with. Maybe that's not what ya'll are saying?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> But Ted , do you let them do this in training?


No, I do not. Strict standard.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> By fall the dog can either mark or not, so concentrate on weak points only not the whole triple, work key doubles, do 2 blinds instead of 3 or 4. Small pieces instead of big pieces will be more relaxing for everyone....Randy


I find that most Amateurs test, rather than train. They would be better served by training more on the pieces rather than testing on the whole.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> I find that most Amateurs test, rather than train. They would be better served by training more on the pieces rather than testing on the whole.


This is my biggest pet peeve about club training days or really anytime a larger group gets together. "Training" becomes a competition where all anybody is concerned about is who's dog did the set up best. I've seen people not want to run their dog on something after watching a couple other dogs smack it because they were afraid their dog wouldn't look good. Training days are not the time to worry about your ego.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I know that if I go slow enough, and only have to say "Heel" once, generally everything else goes great. However if TOO AMPED UP, or I am too fast in what I do as a handler, generally I loose control and things get sloppy!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jerry Beil said:


> If the people I trained with called me to put in their order for what they want to run and planned to have me set it up since I'm the one that's usually there early, I sure would find someone else to train with. Maybe that's not what ya'll are saying?



I think - but do not know - that is Randy's point. The successful training group - Pro or Amateur - depends on team work and time management. 

So, you get early and set up. Maybe some one else cares for and brings the birds. Maybe some one else brings radios, four wheeler, etc. As long as every one pitches in, it's all good. 

Effective time management is a key to any good training group. I know that in my group (run by Cherylon Loveland), that while we are running one set up, Judy or Ed Aycock, Robbie Bickley or I will get the next set up planned, so we can move seamlessly from one set up to the next. 

Of all the things that upset me about training in a group - wasting time is got to be at the top of the list. So, it drives me crazy when we are waiting on dogs. The key is to make every second count. 

I think that when everyone works together, the group as a whole hums.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

It immediately changed his behavior, plus I could see on his face that he was reacting to it. I'm not sure if it is the pressure itself or the fact that he is having to get pressure that does it. He started to pay a lot more attention and catch himself when he started getting out in front. 



claimsadj said:


> Are you sure he was even feeling the collar pressure? I can barely notice a high one on the tips of my finger.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Sounds like we have the same dog.




laker said:


> I started doing the exact same thing and it made a big difference. I'll give him one "heel" and after that *he* better pay attention to *me* or he gets nicked.
> Before I started using this method he would heel at my command but then he would gradually get out in front until I said heel again.
> He wasn't really focusing on me at all.
> I needed him to look at *me* and follow *my* lead. So if he gets out in front he'll get nicked with no warning.
> It has worked very well.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Guilty as well. With one dog, it's hard to avoid this trap because your dog doesn't really have to wait on anything. I have had to really work on this and create situations where he just ha to wait on a stake. 

I actually gave this advice yesterday to another one-dog owner. He had a really nice dog, but he was in a rhythm from the minute he got the dog off the truck without knowing it. This dog also did not care at all for being staked out, as he got really noisy. But it was his first time on a stake, so that was likely some of it. 



claimsadj said:


> The part about rushing home to get in marks and blinds applies to me. I can honestly say I keep a high standard when it comes to the field work. It's alway a rush from the truck to the line to beat dark and get all the dogs run. Never is there any time alloyed for working on the little things like ob. My dog broke in the third this weekend in a master. It was fun watching him hammer the work in the first two series but it's sucks watching him break in the third. This particular dog runs under the highest standards I know how to keep in the field. Maybe if I would put that kind of emphasis on obedience we wouldn't have the line manner issues we have now.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

It's hard to accept at first, but once you understand that you have to let your dog mess up to get the correction that will keep him from messing up in the future, it gets a lot easier. 



Rick_C said:


> This is my biggest pet peeve about club training days or really anytime a larger group gets together. "Training" becomes a competition where all anybody is concerned about is who's dog did the set up best. I've seen people not want to run their dog on something after watching a couple other dogs smack it because they were afraid their dog wouldn't look good. Training days are not the time to worry about your ego.


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

That makes sense and I agree with what you're saying. The post I responded to indicated that the same guy was always there first, and a good idea would be to call him and let him know what you want to run. Seems like that would get old pretty fast for the first guy there.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Rick_C said:


> This is my biggest pet peeve about club training days or really anytime a larger group gets together. "Training" becomes a competition where all anybody is concerned about is who's dog did the set up best. I've seen people not want to run their dog on something after watching a couple other dogs smack it because they were afraid their dog wouldn't look good. Training days are not the time to worry about your ego.


I agree with this post. We seldom run our dogs on club training days because those events are conducted and set up for basically novice dogs with their novice owner-handlers. Also, we seldom train with a really large group. We basically train with the same 6 - 7 people (sometimes a few less, sometimes a few more depending upon who can come to train). 

Our training group consists of a handful of experienced (and successful) field trial amateur trainer-handlers whose dogs have placed or won all age stakes. Some dogs are FC/AFC, AFC, or close to their titles. Most have 2 dogs they will run. 3-AA dogs is sort of frowned upon so nobody brings 3. Some in the training group also have younger dogs they are bringing up. The Derby or QAA level dogs will do the same set ups, but differently. Instead of a triple they will do a double or a single. Sometimes gunners are out, sometimes not. It depends on the dog's level and how the owner wants to run their dog on that particular set up. No one in the training group is there to "win"; they are there to train and to get suggestions from others in the group. "What do you think I should do?" 

Dogs younger than Derby level get their time on land or on water at the end of the training day. The holding blinds are out, the mats are still down; there are gunners in the field in white coats. The younger dogs see and participate in the real deal starting at a young age. When the very little puppies come out (under 6 months), it is a looked forward to fun time at the end of the training day. Those who can stay until the end, throw pigeons for the little puppies, have a beer or two, and go over how the training day went. 

At the next field trial, members of our training group will be competitors. When the trial is over, they will be back training together the following week. Can't ask for a better training group than that. 

Helen


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Ted Shih said:


> As long as every one pitches in, it's all good. Effective time management is a key to any good training group. Of all the things that upset me about training in a group - wasting time is got to be at the top of the list. So, it drives me crazy when we are waiting on dogs. The key is to make every second count. I think that when everyone works together, the group as a whole hums.


How right you are. Nobody sitting out at a gunner's station on a hot day appreciates someone who is fooling around at his truck with his dog when he/she should have been in the holding blind ready to go. Nobody appreciates the handler who sits on his butt and then jumps up to go air his dog when it is time for his dog to run.

There are only so many hours in the training day. How many set ups can be done depends on time management. As Ted says, every second counts. Important too is sharing the work. 

Helen


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Helen, I am now jealous of your training group. What's the sense of having a training group, or training day, if someone is not willing to spend the time necessary to help the dog that is on the line? When I show up it's with the full knowledge and expectation that each dog will get what they need. If that means throwing extra birds, repeating marks etc... that's what we're going to do. Some dogs will roll through the set up without much in any trouble, others will need extra help. We've all had a dog at that level so what comes around goes around. Train the dog you're training. I also agree with limiting the number of dogs per participant.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Helen, sounds like you have a great training group. Allow me a moment to play devil's advocate. And please understand I am not calling you out in any way. 

Periodically on this forum the general question of "How can we get more young people into the dog games?" comes up. As a newbie, I can tell you that this whole thing is quite intimidating, and nothing more so than putting yourself out there, finding folks to train with, and finding out where your holes are. Even more so if you don't have anybody to tell you that's what you are supposed to be doing, not winning a training day. I certainly didn't just know what I posted above about letting the dog make the mistake to get the correction; to me that initially made no sense at all. 

I have been extremely lucky to have a couple mentors (both named Mark, oddly enough) 
who have helped me out immensely. How would I have known to go get the Lardy 
articles and read them 100 times, or even to poke around on this forum, if somebody had
not told me? I certainly would not have had access to a great pro, Charlie Moody, 
without the help of one of those mentors. Having Charlie and Jeremy FF and CC my dog 
put me light years ahead.

But the biggest advantage I have had is exposure to two good training groups. One is a group much like the one Helen described, and having access to them a few times a year
has been invaluable. I didn't know what a holding blind was, what "airing" was, what a mat was for, etc., until somebody took the time to explain it to me.

They have had to teach me EVERYTHING, from how to be a bird boy on up, and I am still learning.

It just seems a real shame that, apparently, all of that collective wisdom in the training group described is going to leave the game with those particular handlers. 



helencalif said:


> I agree with this post. We seldom run our dogs on club training days because those events are conducted and set up for basically novice dogs with their novice owner-handlers. Also, we seldom train with a really large group. We basically train with the same 6 - 7 people (sometimes a few less, sometimes a few more depending upon who can come to train).
> 
> Our training group consists of a handful of experienced (and successful) field trial amateur trainer-handlers whose dogs have placed or won all age stakes. Some dogs are FC/AFC, AFC, or close to their titles. Most have 2 dogs they will run. 3-AA dogs is sort of frowned upon so nobody brings 3. Some in the training group also have younger dogs they are bringing up. The Derby or QAA level dogs will do the same set ups, but differently. Instead of a triple they will do a double or a single. Sometimes gunners are out, sometimes not. It depends on the dog's level and how the owner wants to run their dog on that particular set up. No one in the training group is there to "win"; they are there to train and to get suggestions from others in the group. "What do you think I should do?"
> 
> ...


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

IMO club training days are one of the best ways to teach a firebreather about standards. Especially those standards that apply from kennel to line.
I can train on marks and blinds by myself. The best medicine for a firebreather field trial prospect, is a hunt test club training day.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??


Randy,
Sometimes "stepping on the bubble" ie cracking down in one area of disobedience, brings out behavior in another.
The dog that now hardly creeps on line, becomes a whiner, or barks on the send. What are your thoughts?


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## featherqwest (Dec 15, 2007)

You can use a variety of heeling patterns. You have to wear the fire breather down before you run them. Confuse them. Keep them away from the line. Tell the person before you in line that you have to take your breather to wear them out before you run them. They need to have a clear head. Some really smart lady that owns several of them fire breathers told me that. Well several flatcoat people to include the men.


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

.....too many


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## jwcbf (Jan 14, 2009)

Scott Adams said:


> Randy,
> Sometimes "stepping on the bubble" ie cracking down in one area of disobedience, brings out behavior in another.
> The dog that now hardly creeps on line, becomes a whiner, or barks on the send. What are your thoughts?


I amvery interested in the answer to this question and so am giving it a "Bump"...

JW


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I am interested too. I have always been told that pressure applied has to come out somewhere.



jwcbf said:


> I amvery interested in the answer to this question and so am giving it a "Bump"...
> 
> JW


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Randy Bohn said:


> When you tell your dog to heel out of the holding blind to the line.....How many times do you say the command before you actually get there?


I say it once. If she is forging, I stop my forward motion and do not continue to the line. Forward motion only when she is at heel.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Randy Bohn said:


> Does noise go along with dogs not heeling properly to the blind and then to the line? Improper heeling turns into breaking maybe?? Creeping? What do you think??


I think the dog hasn't been taught to think and behave at it's highest drive state and the conflict created by repeated, inconsistent, nagging corrections may cause all of the above, depending on the dog.

I don't think noise, breaking or creeping have anything to do with heeling, I think they have to do with sitting.


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## blinddogmaddie (Mar 7, 2008)

My firebreather (12 months) is told only once. When ready to leave the holding blind I command "sit", I walk out from the blind a few feet and then command "here" and with my hand, signal her to heel right or left. Once she is heeled at my side and I determine that she is ready, I command "heel" once and we walk up to the line. where once at the line I give her the "sit" command at the bucket so I can get ready. She walks off lead and at my side. It took time and enforcing obedience to get her here to this point,but she is listening well.

As for noise while heeling at the line, it goes back to obedience. Mine was noisy at the line, but with strict obedience and pulling her off the line when she was noisy, she has learned that she does not get a bird unless she is quiet. I did not tolerate any noise.

She doesn't creep, but still likes to crouch in antisipation of being sent at times. I do not allow her to crouch down. I will correct her and make her sit upright before sent. She is starting to understand this now. She is still young and I figured it would take longer to get her to understand because of her high desire to retrieve.

My obedience is the same at home now as it is in the field. I let the dogs out from the house to relieve themselves and to stretch out, and the collar is on them. I let them do their thing, but when I say a command, they better listen. I got lazy for a time and didn't put the collar on them and my wife noticed that their obedience level was dropping and I started saying mulitple commands to get them to listen to me. I was wondering why I started having a problem in the field which I didn't have before, and it turned out to be my fault with my obedience at home. Problem fixed.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

In retriever training yes things will go wrong if too much pressure is applied somewhere BUT in rehabbing the noisy crazy dogs nothing pops out because there are no blinds or marks...just obedience for many weeks....Randy


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Randy, I apologize if I've asked this before. If there are no blinds or marks, my dog's ob is very, very good. I once considered giving up on trials and trying the OB ring..(could not really get into it). So how do you make the correction/connection if the dog is not in overdrive?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Carol, you know the answer.  (at least for Indy). Remember all the pressure induced stuff that stopped when we let Indy figure it out himself?


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## Charlie Seitzer (Oct 22, 2011)

Sharon Potter said:


> Carol, you know the answer.  (at least for Indy). Remember all the pressure induced stuff that stopped when we let Indy figure it out himself?


Sharon or Carol -- Can you explain how you let him figure it out. Btw it might be a name thing because I'm asking on behalf of my BLM Indy


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Charlie Seitzer said:


> Sharon or Carol -- Can you explain how you let him figure it out. Btw it might be a name thing because I'm asking on behalf of my BLM Indy


I'll give my .02s worth, and let Carol chime in.  When I first saw Indy train, (and man, is he fun to watch) by the time the last bird of a triple was down, he would usually be anywhere from 10 to 20 feet ahead of Carol, and never still. His butt never left the ground, and breaking was not on his mind either (he did not break once in the three months I watched him, but never say never). He had a bad case of the whines, and happy feet to go along with it. Additionally, because of the different pressure tactics that he had been exposed to in the hope of curing his line manners, other stuff had popped out, such as getting mouthy with his birds, and his whistle sits were big, wide loops due to lack of control.

I told Carol it was fixable. All she needed was the same thing she was asking of her dog...patience. And much in the same manner as required of the dog....the patience to do nothing but wait. 

So, first day of working on this:

Me: "Ralph, take three bumpers and the pistol, and go throw a short, easy triple. Carol, stand with Indy at heel at the line. Relaxed posture, hands behind your back, with the transmitter in your hand. Say nothing, do nothing...unless he breaks, the use the transmitter only, no voice or verbal." (we needed to take that pressure away, too). 

Carol complies. Marks go down, Indy scoots way out in front like always. Carol is kind of wired, waiting for me to tell her to do something. Indy is doing the Happy Feet dance, waiting to be sent, but he stays in place, way out in front. The clock keeps ticking. Indy appears, in Carol's words, as if he's ready to spontaneously combust. But he still doesn't break. He wants, more than anything on earth, to be sent, but nobody will say the word. Minutes continue to go by. He starts looking back at Carol, and eventually shuffles back a few feet. Then a few more. Finally he got all the way back to Carol's side, and he was still tapping his feet and cranked. Carol whispered "Now?" and I said "No. Not until he stops moving and gets quiet. For three entire seconds." By now it's almost 20 minutes since the marks went down. Finally, he sighs and settles. I give Carol the OK and he nails all three. 

Lather, rinse, repeat. Eventually, he learned that he could make Carol send him if he stayed right next to her and was still and quiet. They made good progress over the summer, but it was a hard road, especially after the line manners had eroded for a few years. It won't go away overnight or in a few short sessions. But it will work, if the handler has the patience to wait it out. Not all do.

This works for vocal dogs, too...if they want to whine and yap at the line, just wait until they get quiet and calm before you send them...and be willing to outlast them. Patience, patience and more patience. Any time you can put a dog into a situation where they have to find, by trial and error, how to get what they want, they will learn faster. We humans tend to think we always have to "do something", when often we just have to stand there and do nothing until the dog gives the appropriate response.

Of course, the initial foundation of really solid basic OB...and I do mean solid...tight and really attentive to the handler...has to be in place.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Great stuff here for sure.

I call this making the dog responsible for the behavior, and it has worked wonders for us. Instead of doing the heeling dance ("Heel! Heel! Heel! Heel! etc., etc.), I say it one time. The first time he moves ahead of me I just stop, and we don't move again until he is perfectly heeled. The second time, without saying another command, I give him a light burn, probably 2 medium. This is usually all it takes, but we can go up from there if necessary. Although by now I think it is probably better to just turn around and go back to the holding blind and start over.

As Sharon said, if you will get across to the dog exactly what he needs to do to get what he wants, he will figure it out and start giving it to you.



Sharon Potter said:


> I'll give my .02s worth, and let Carol chime in.  When I first saw Indy train, (and man, is he fun to watch) by the time the last bird of a triple was down, he would usually be anywhere from 10 to 20 feet ahead of Carol, and never still. His butt never left the ground, and breaking was not on his mind either (he did not break once in the three months I watched him, but never say never). He had a bad case of the whines, and happy feet to go along with it. Additionally, because of the different pressure tactics that he had been exposed to in the hope of curing his line manners, other stuff had popped out, such as getting mouthy with his birds, and his whistle sits were big, wide loops due to lack of control.
> 
> I told Carol it was fixable. All she needed was the same thing she was asking of her dog...patience. And much in the same manner as required of the dog....the patience to do nothing but wait.
> 
> ...


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Carol I don't understand your question...Randy


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Randy, I am having all kinds of posting issues... Have tried to reply to Sharon, Rookie and you three times but keep getting logged out before posting! I'll try just answering you this time. You say you spend a lot of time on ob without marks at all. How do you recreate the stimulus that causes the behaviors? I tried the experiment you suggested. I put Indy at sit, walk around around him 360˚ about 10 feet away. With and without a line on him. No issue whatsoever. He will heel at my side, do figure 8's, walk backwards, sideways and sit without a word from me. UNTIL there is a mark or blind in the field. So how do you correct the behaviors without the marks? Do you just have guns in the field? Can you do this as a "lone handler"?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Okay! I got that one to go, now to respond to Sharon and Rookie. Sharon, that day was an eye opener for sure. Only we did not throw a triple. Indy was too animated for one retrieve much less three. So the entire half hour was spent waiting to pick up that one dummy. For three months we were able to continue this work. And it showed, Indy was running better than he ever has, before or since. Interestingly, his handling was also 100% improved. He started looking to me instead of going self employed. The down side was we were working pretty much alone, or just you, me and Ralph. No group would have tolerated the time it took to work with this "rehab" dog. When we got to an actual trial, Indy took over again. Remember how long it took me just to get him to the line? Did I try too soon, was it the lack of a group? I don't know. All I know is that at his age I don't believe I can rebuild the dog and still have time to have fun with him. So I accept what I have and love to work with him, but I got a new pup to start over with! And I can proudly say that new pup (almost 2) has excellent line manners, is a team player, and yet has all the drive you could possibly want. Indy, you and Pete, (in Idaho) have taught me to be a much better trainer than I would have been in this short time otherwise.

Rookie, we never used the collar at all in this work. Indy did not care much about a swat or a burn, but the very fact of trying to correct him at all drove him over the bend. Bad noise, mouthiness, etc erupted. What we had to do was make him responsible for getting the retrieve. I doubt this would work for a younger or less experienced dog. It worked because Indy knew exactly what he was supposed to do and did not need "telling". So we waited......and waited.......and waited.......


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Carol, that's right...I mispoke. We had Ralph take three bumpers, but only did singles. Thanks for the reminder!


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Carol, we add a little excitement thru the program little by little, many steps thru the process and all must be completed 100% or the program will fall apart on you when you do add marks/guns/birds etc...One of the most recent dogs we have for rehabbing line manners did well for 6 weeks but when we introduced live guns again he tried to resort back to the old ways so we put him back into the mental state of our yard program and in 2 days he was done fighting about it. The owner came in this week and after rehabbing him all week he shot 3 doubles with his dog today and the dog didn't move/whine/bark/foot stomp/track star position/break...little pieces at a time...Randy


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## big gunner (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok Randy I called and talked to you last week. had just gotten back from the Golden specialty where my dog broke in 3 different stakes. Started as 1st dog in WCX. Had a no Bird as the # 2 gunner could not find the safety.Dog had a controlled break. The judge called for the flyer. The called for the dog. He picked up the flyer and the #2 bird the the other judge said that I would get a re run since the center gun was in such a delay. The start of a Bad 4 days. # dogs later at the line again. This time he breaks on the center bird. I call him back and thank the judges and remove my dog.No fire breathing to the holding blinds. No acting up in the holding blind. Healed to the mat. Once on the mat it was his show. Next day trained for the Qual & the Am Ran 3 marks 2 & about 350 and 1 at 175. All Am. set ups. No signs of control issues...Of course collar was on. At the end of training we used the shackled duck on a string trick. He knew he was being set up. Not a move as we dragged the duck across his feet. Rock solid ( not). The next morning we ran a stand out out of order triple with a flyer. Controlled break on the center bird as the flyer went off as I called him back he could never have seen it. Judge said send your dog and yep he pinned the flyer, the other outside bird,and hunted behind the gunner and hooked the money bird. I figured to be dropped. The over to the next disaster the Am Center retired,hidden left bird and of course a 60 yd breaking flyer. I got a loud no bird as the flyer broke towards the line.He had the flyer in his mouth faster than I could say heal..Here!!!! Trials over.

Was he a pain in the but to get to the holding blind? In his Derby career. That cleaned up. he was terrible in the holding blind. That took a month and a half to clean up. Then he was beating me to the mat. Ok now that was under control. So of course we have Breaking issues or should I say control issues.

We go on the next 3-4 weeks of major control SIT really means don't move an eyelash. Sit going into the create and coming out. Sit before you get feed. Sitting in the holding blind facing away from the fabric until I call him.If he steps 1/2 step out in front he gets a correction. Before I send him for a mark in training I take 2 steps backwards and he better heal backwards.

I also had a trial this past weekend ( entered before all the breaks ) So I decided if he moves 1 hair I would pick him up I informed the Judges of my intent. He did not break and we went to the 3rd series a water blind.He did a very good job but the judges only carried 6 to the water marks. 

The Tuesday before the trial a pro and good friend invited me over as he was shooting flyers for his training group 
After 3 simple single marks which he never moved we were getting ready to shoot the flyers. The pro placed my dog next to him and the 2 creates of birds. Collar on the dog and on the mat and me next to him. The flyers were being retrieved by his training group. If my dog moved he got a collar correction at a pretty good level. Oh yeah he tried to break. then he tried to move behind me, to the side of me even under me. If he stretched his neck he got it. The last few birds he got the Idea that Sit means sit. I removed the collar for the last 5 birds, yes he sat.... Oh by the way we shot 26 ducks that afternoon.

Did I fix the problem I would like to think so. But the control and breaking will always be on my mind. As the say There are only 2 types of retrievers - those that have broke and those that will.

Erick


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Randy. Thanks for posting here. It's appreciated.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Randy, at what age did you expect Chilli to have high standards at the line? Pondering, as I loved watching her alllllllllllllll those years ago.


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## Twolabsplus (Aug 29, 2004)

I TRY TO LIMIT "hEEL" ONCE OR TWICE..... THEN i DON'T SAY ANYTHING.... STOP, SCOOT BACKWARDS AND WHEN SHE HEARS ME SCRAPE MY FEET BACK.... SHE HOPS BACK. 
MIGHT HAVE TO THE THE SCOOT BACK SEVERAL TIMES BUT I'M NOT SAYING "HEEL HEEL HEEL......."


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

2tall said:


> I doubt this would work for a younger or less experienced dog. It worked because Indy knew exactly what he was supposed to do and did not need "telling". So we waited......and waited.......and waited.......


I may be creating a massive issue down the line Carol but I have a very driven puppy right now who will sit from a standing position, focus and wait to be released if you throw a mark. This at 18 weeks. We'll see what happens when you employ the self discovery angle at an early age. This is my PERSONAL dog and has nothing at all to do with work, nor does the training technique BTW.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

If the standard is started and upheld from the beginning, these issues aren't allowed to develop in the first place. Few things frustrate me more than watching someone with, for example, a very vocal puppy, allowing it to run marks and vocalize, saying they'll fix the vocal later. Why establish a bad habit that is hard to break? I have yet to see a vocal dog that wasn't also high drive...and those are the dogs that learn the fastest using the self-reward. Level of training has little to do with it.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Darrin, I think you misunderstood me. I agree 100% that a pup must be taught from very early on what the standard is. As a matter of fact, I used Hillman's method on my youngest and the results have been great. I never allowed him to learn to creep, whine, etc. I am addressing those frequent posters who have their young dog, (12 - 18 months I'm guessing) running tests and are starting to have these issues. It is very important that the dog be "taught" what is right and acceptable, rather than try to burn them to heel without directions. I think they risk creating the very behaviors they are trying to avoid! That was where my older dog was when we caught up with Sharon. Pressure brought out the worst.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> If the standard is started and upheld from the beginning, these issues aren't allowed to develop in the first place. Few things frustrate me more than watching someone with, for example, a very vocal puppy, allowing it to run marks and vocalize, saying they'll fix the vocal later. Why establish a bad habit that is hard to break? I have yet to see a vocal dog that wasn't also high drive...and those are the dogs that learn the fastest using the self-reward. Level of training has little to do with it.


It happened in my case because I didn't know any better, nor did those around me.
So it went to far before I realized what I had and that my entire approach had to change.

Identifying what I should have done does not help currently though.

That's why I say it requires a whole new approach going forward.

It can be controlled and you can have a lot of fun with a dog like that.

JMO


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

road kill said:


> It happened in my case because I didn't know any better, nor did those around me.
> So it went to far before I realized what I had and that my entire approach had to change.
> 
> Identifying what I should have done does not help currently though.
> ...


 It will help with your next dog, though! 
And they are a lot of fun, aren't they?


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> It will help with your next dog, though!
> And they are a lot of fun, aren't they?


Yes, I will approach my next dog differently, for sure.
And YES, this one is a lot of fun.

You never have to send them twice!!!


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> I'll give my .02s worth, and let Carol chime in.  When I first saw Indy train, (and man, is he fun to watch) by the time the last bird of a triple was down, he would usually be anywhere from 10 to 20 feet ahead of Carol, and never still. His butt never left the ground, and breaking was not on his mind either (he did not break once in the three months I watched him, but never say never). He had a bad case of the whines, and happy feet to go along with it. Additionally, because of the different pressure tactics that he had been exposed to in the hope of curing his line manners, other stuff had popped out, such as getting mouthy with his birds, and his whistle sits were big, wide loops due to lack of control.
> 
> I told Carol it was fixable. All she needed was the same thing she was asking of her dog...patience. And much in the same manner as required of the dog....the patience to do nothing but wait.
> 
> ...


IF dog does break and you correct with collar and get him back to the line, what then? go back to holding blind, or truck, or rethrow mark? or something else?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Marty Lee said:


> IF dog does break and you correct with collar and get him back to the line, what then? go back to holding blind, or truck, or rethrow mark? or something else?


If the dog breaks, my correction will be to "sit", and wherever the dog stops is where we'll work from. I don't call them back to the line...it's simply SIT. It won't be allowed to pick up the bumper or bird (thrower will pick it up, and that will be very visible to the dog). I will simply correct the dog's failure to not remain sitting. I like to focus on one concept at a time and if I have to back up to "sit means stay put", I will. So, I've corrected, the dog stopped and sat. Now it may have twice the distance to go to figure out how to get back to me....and I won't verbally or physically re-heel. I make the dog figure it out. I may have whoever is throwing for me make some noise and tempt the dog to break as they toss the bumper this time...and I will correct again for not sitting...but I go right back to the original concept once they've sat, which is "figure out where you need to be to get sent."

So...no back to the truck (I used to do that but quit), and no back to the holding blind either. Sit, throw the mark, and wait for the dog to work it out.

This doesn't work, of course, for a dog that barely knows how to heel in the first place....solid basic OB has to be in place first.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> If the dog breaks, my correction will be to "sit", and wherever the dog stops is where we'll work from. I don't call them back to the line...it's simply SIT. It won't be allowed to pick up the bumper or bird (thrower will pick it up, and that will be very visible to the dog). I will simply correct the dog's failure to not remain sitting. I like to focus on one concept at a time and if I have to back up to "sit means stay put", I will. So, I've corrected, the dog stopped and sat. Now it may have twice the distance to go to figure out how to get back to me....and I won't verbally or physically re-heel. I make the dog figure it out. I may have whoever is throwing for me make some noise and tempt the dog to break as they toss the bumper this time...and I will correct again for not sitting...but I go right back to the original concept once they've sat, which is "figure out where you need to be to get sent."
> 
> So...no back to the truck (I used to do that but quit), and no back to the holding blind either. Sit, throw the mark, and wait for the dog to work it out.
> 
> This doesn't work, of course, for a dog that barely knows how to heel in the first place....solid basic OB has to be in place first.


I'm not following. Dog breaks, you say "sit." Dog sits. Then what? 

You don't say "heel"? You don't give another command? 

So dog is sitting and sitting, if it returns to heel then it has broken the sit command...what am I missing?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Probably a bad choice of words on my part. I'm not going to yell SIT, nor will I use the whistle. 

Let's say the dog was 10 feet in front of me when it couldn't stand it anymore and started to break from that creeping location. At the split second the dog starts to move, I will correct with the collar, saying nothing. (remember, these dogs have been OB and CC so they understand that correction) Timing is everything here, as is 100% focus and reading the dog and knowing when they are a heartbeat away from breaking. Forward motion is curtailed....I need to stop the dog from making that decision. The only motion I want is for the dog to think about what it has to do to get the retrieve...and the high drive dogs will figure it out and eventually get back to my side. It takes a ton of patience, but it does work.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Ok, got it. Thanks!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Sharon, great stuff again. I am going to use that on my dog when he breaks.

However, my issue has not been breaking as much as a problem getting to the line under control. He is prone to try to scoot up and crane his head around my leg, which I also interpret as being about "that far" from breaking, although to this point he hasn't. 

To correct it, I have used much the same approach as you described with sit, giving the heel command once and then stopping and/or nicking when he gets out of heel. He knows what he is supposed to do, so he needs to decide to do it, giving me what I want, in order to get what he wants.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I found that when I was previously trying to use the collar at ever higher settings to stop his heel issues when going to the line, the collar only made it worse, presumably because he was willing to endure it if he could get to the bird. So I know from whence you speak. When I figured out quite by accident (I was too out of breath while running to actually say "heel") that he knew exactly where he was supposed to be and would come back to heel on the correction, the light went off in my head. But there are no birds involved in running, of course.

Now, on the way to the line, I simply stop and wait for him to bring himself back to heel. He doesn't heel, we get no closer to him getting the bird.

It's pretty simple once you think of it or somebody explains it to you. Make him do what you want, without a bunch of repeated (and ignored) commands, in order to get what he wants, the retrieve.



2tall said:


> Rookie, we never used the collar at all in this work. Indy did not care much about a swat or a burn, but the very fact of trying to correct him at all drove him over the bend. Bad noise, mouthiness, etc erupted. What we had to do was make him responsible for getting the retrieve. I doubt this would work for a younger or less experienced dog. It worked because Indy knew exactly what he was supposed to do and did not need "telling". So we waited......and waited.......and waited.......


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

RookieTrainer said:


> Sharon, great stuff again. I am going to use that on my dog when he breaks.
> 
> However, my issue has not been breaking as much as a problem getting to the line under control. He is prone to try to scoot up and crane his head around my leg, which I also interpret as being about "that far" from breaking, although to this point he hasn't.
> 
> To correct it, I have used much the same approach as you described with sit, giving the heel command once and then stopping and/or nicking when he gets out of heel. He knows what he is supposed to do, so he needs to decide to do it, giving me what I want, in order to get what he wants.


I have not read a lot of this thread, but I do not use the collar much after I have cc'ed only if I feel there just being lazy about thing. If the dog is lunging and fighting me I will use the stick. I sometimes will make them back up in a entire circle just to get my point across. if YOU PUT THE STICK DOWN AND THEY DON'T START BACKING UP YOU NEED TO WORK ON IT MORE.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> If the dog breaks, my correction will be to "sit", and wherever the dog stops is where we'll work from. I don't call them back to the line...it's simply SIT. It won't be allowed to pick up the bumper or bird (thrower will pick it up, and that will be very visible to the dog). I will simply correct the dog's failure to not remain sitting. I like to focus on one concept at a time and if I have to back up to "sit means stay put", I will. So, I've corrected, the dog stopped and sat. Now it may have twice the distance to go to figure out how to get back to me....and I won't verbally or physically re-heel. I make the dog figure it out. I may have whoever is throwing for me make some noise and tempt the dog to break as they toss the bumper this time...and I will correct again for not sitting...but I go right back to the original concept once they've sat, which is "figure out where you need to be to get sent."
> 
> *So...no back to the truck (I used to do that but quit), and no back to the holding blind either. Sit, throw the mark, and wait for the dog to work it out.*
> 
> This doesn't work, of course, for a dog that barely knows how to heel in the first place....solid basic OB has to be in place first.


This is what we did.
He figured out what I wanted.
It is a very minor problem now.
And he hasn't broke or crept in some time.
His last test he ran was as close to perfect as we can get!!


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Aussie, I wanted Chili calmed down before she died..........never happened!! Wish I knew back then what I know now..Randy


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Those that have to use multiple verbal heels to get to the line, need to be practicing heeling drill in the back yard,. There are judges that will drop you for being out of control; and you are!


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Richard,

What's the heeling drill? I do plenty do drills, but missed that one somehow. Would be useful....

Sue Puff


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