# The Erosion of Field Trial Giving Clubs



## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Well a club recently had a pro calling around to find an OPEN judge for a trial he wanted to run over 20 dogs in. The Snake River RC decided to not hold their spring trial and probably all future trials because the three workers were tired after 11 years of putting on 22 trials-one is 72 and has diabeties, one has had a stroke, one has heart problems so they decided to subscribe to the Kendal School of Management's suggestion that small clubs with 3 members not attempt to put on a field trial. Two midwest clubs are held together by 4 people who have been doing it for 12 years-they are all over 64 years old and those trials will soon be left as memories. The 4 workers in the oldest club in the midwest (not the two former ones mentioned) are the same as 8 years ago-they are all over 60 and have grandchildren and are VERY tired.As to SRRC there will be a loss of $3200 handling fees for those pros who have attended over the past year and a half-perhaps PRTA will apply for a TARP grant and bail out. Wake up we who are 60 and older have been doing this for the past30-45 years because we love our dogs, train our own dogs, and as we become older our dogs become therapy dogs as well as field trial dogs. I don't have the answer as to how to get the sport back on the track, but I am sure that there is someone out there who attended(maybe not graduated) from the Kendal School of Management that like our President Obama will tell us how. As those of us who attempt to hold a trial know that the advice we have heard was to step back and let new people take over it is now happening-we are a dying breed. Good luck, I have enjoyed the ride and love my dogs-all who have allowed me to play.


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## Eddie Sullivan (Jul 10, 2005)

It is not just FT clubs that are suffering. Our HT (AKC & HRC) club is in the same boat. For 12 to 15 years now the same few have done it all. Our membership has fallen and the newer members for some reason or another have not stepped up. I for one am also tired.
________
Pregnant anal


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Lanse,

I am one of those "new" people taking over, the hard part of the whole thing is when those before us do not provide the necessary info or setup road blocks....but I think that is just a personality issue for our club....this is not my first rodeo, I did a NAHRA club for 5 years until it died, their last tesst was funded out of my own pocket.....this year the FT planning is coming along, but still having issues finding a local judge.....all I get in return when asking is "You know this means you'll have to judge for our club!" So in order to fill a judging slate I'll have to bargin 3 extra assignments? Total craziness.....the rate I'm going I wonder why bother? I have even tried to recruit new blood into judging and get told "not interested" - oh well....either we find a local judge or we have no FT....I will say I have all live gunners figured out and even marshalls - can you say 2 marshalls per stake, never had that before....so there are some positives....I pretty sure we will be able to pull this off, but "we" sure don't make it very easy on each other....

Lainee, Flash and Butthead....


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

lanse brown said:


> Wake up we who are 60 and older have been doing this for the past30-45 years because we love our dogs, train our own dogs, and as we become older our dogs become therapy dogs as well as field trial dogs. I don't have the answer as to how to get the sport back on the track, but I am sure that there is someone out there who attended(maybe not graduated) from the Kendal School of Management that like our President Obama will tell us how. As those of us who attempt to hold a trial know that the advice we have heard was to step back and let new people take over it is now happening-we are a dying breed. Good luck, I have enjoyed the ride and love my dogs-all who have allowed me to play.



Oh-I should know better than to post to this, but do you represent the majority in terms of training your own dogs and more importantly-welcoming new folks to train with you so they have a reason to give back? A lot of us are happy to work and have become knowledgable enough in many respects to be assets in every aspect of putting on a trial from secty. to marshall to workers in the field, etc., but where is the incentive for wanting to work when those you are working for either have their dogs completely pro trained/run or don't welcome you to train with them? 

Everyone (I hope) does this because they love their dogs, but those of us who prefer to train our own dogs would appreciate mentoring along with the opportunity to work.

I joined a club a few states away because they are offering what I was looking for in terms of training with FTers who have been around the block. I'll be happy to work my a$$ off for them in any capacity, but it's because they are making it a win/win situation. I don't have the time or inclination to work with the idea that running my dog in the test/trial is an afterthought. Those of us who run our our dogs want to work, but would also appreciate the luxury of having some gallery time in the stake that we're going to be running.

I'm going to start rambling (already have), so I should just end it there!

M


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Lanse, I think what you have described is running in epidemic proportions throughout the country, clubs that were being held together by a select few are disappearing at an alarming rate..somewhere along the way, the older guard which I have to group myself in with has done a mediocre job of passing the torch to the new breed of owner/handler.you are correct in the fact it is ALL about the dogs, but in the spirit of competition and the age of instant gratification, the forming of clique training groups, retriever clubs have become somewhat fragmented.
I think what has also disappeared are the mentors and the real characters(not clowns) of our sport. the attrition due to age,burnout,lifestyle changes,career changes is becoming more and more evident.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

Crap! You guys are depressing me. After over a year on this board I finally got off my Butt and sent in my money to the Atlanta retriever club and the Old South HRC. I figured I needed to join for this very reason....to help put on trials and HTs and now I find out the sport is going away.

I can't win.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Miriam Wade said:


> A lot of us are happy to work.... but where is the incentive for wanting to work


I think this hits the nail on the head for me. I recently joined another club, and said "Yes", I would work the FT. When I got there that day, the stake chairman said "I've got all my workers, what are you supposed to do?" What is welcoming about this statement? Later he decided I could work behind the line, I ran birds out, took birds at the line, and I was the one who got to walk up and down the line shooing people to the line. I also got to drive back and forth to the open, and get people back over to run the am. I did take time to run my own dog at the Q, about 50 minutes to get back and forth and run my dog.

My thanks for that: No lunch after I got back from finiding people camped out at the open. So about 2:00 p.m. I had enough. No thanks from anyone, and I just got my bill with a *1 hour* work credit.

When I first started in this game 7 years ago, I calld my local club and left a message on one of the "key person's" answering machine volunteering to work the field trial. I had no dog to run at that time. He was a baby, still being trained. Not one person ever called back.

Welcome to the sport. Welcome to the club. This kind of stuff leaves a bad taste in peoples' mouths. 

If you want the younger people to step up, a simple "glad to have you", "Thanks for coming to work", a simple return phone call, and a real job to do can go a long way. If you want cr*p, you get cr*p.

BTW- since the first club, I have picked up a clip board or two for them and marshalled the last series of an open, judged for them, or whatever.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

We are a bunch of freaking NUTS.....


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

...and then there are the people who won't be deterred, who want to participate and who are willing to deal with the inevitable crap and occasional lack of consideration (that exists everywhere, by the way) to make this pursuit a success. They must find enough enjoyment and personal satisfaction to make the experience worthwhile. 

Better opportunites come to those who prove themselves over time, especially under adversity.

Susan, I've met you and I know that you're no shrinking violet;-)


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## Tamid (Nov 7, 2007)

Having worked in a number of small companies and taken some management/marketing courses I've learned the only way to keep your company competetive and strving forward is to have a good marketing/advertising plan. Where I live there are 2 FT clubs and one NHRA club. Try to find a contact! Ask at the local gun clubs, sporting stores, etc. No one knows. Only by chance do you find them. With this kind of presence its not hard to understand why all 3 of these clubs are really suffering for new blood.


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

WOW! All of you shunned folks need to come to Oklahoma. I know one club (actually just a few people that like the game) that will welcome you AND put your butt to work!!! 

fp


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## mike hodge (Aug 31, 2003)

Susan: I'm sorry you got treated the way you did.

But I'm sure your efforts of going to the Open to find assorted handlers helped out. I've marshalled many times where I could have used someone to do this. Radios (distance) weren't an option; and cell phone service was non-existent.

Hence the sandbaggers plodded at their own pace. ... Needless to say I'm sure your contributions were appreciated and made the trial run smoother. It's just too bad they weren't acknowledged.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Bayou Magic said:


> WOW! All of you shunned folks need to come to Oklahoma. I know one club (actually just a few people that like the game) that will welcome you AND put your butt to work!!!
> 
> fp


Yeah....I know.....first hand.....and the damn fries were cold, too!  And putting beer in the cooler and telling me I can't have one falls under cruel and unusual punishment!

FOM


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bayou Magic said:


> I know one club that will welcome you AND put your butt to work!!!
> 
> fp


make that TWO clubs....


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

lanse brown said:


> Well a club recently had a pro calling around to find an OPEN judge for a trial he wanted to run over 20 dogs in. The Snake River RC decided to not hold their spring trial and probably all future trials because the three workers were tired after 11 years of putting on 22 trials-one is 72 and has diabeties, one has had a stroke, one has heart problems so they decided to subscribe to the Kendal School of Management's suggestion that small clubs with 3 members not attempt to put on a field trial. Two midwest clubs are held together by 4 people who have been doing it for 12 years-they are all over 64 years old and those trials will soon be left as memories. The 4 workers in the oldest club in the midwest (not the two former ones mentioned) are the same as 8 years ago-they are all over 60 and have grandchildren and are VERY tired.As to SRRC there will be a loss of $3200 handling fees for those pros who have attended over the past year and a half-perhaps PRTA will apply for a TARP grant and bail out. Wake up we who are 60 and older have been doing this for the past30-45 years because we love our dogs, train our own dogs, and as we become older our dogs become therapy dogs as well as field trial dogs. I don't have the answer as to how to get the sport back on the track, but I am sure that there is someone out there who attended(maybe not graduated) from the Kendal School of Management that like our President Obama will tell us how. As those of us who attempt to hold a trial know that the advice we have heard was to step back and let new people take over it is now happening-we are a dying breed. Good luck, I have enjoyed the ride and love my dogs-all who have allowed me to play.


Well stated Lanse
What you say is sad but true, and could be the eventual demise of our sport if the next generation doesn't step up and replace the old guard. By stepping up, I mean more than just writing checks to your pro and for entry fees.
Too many clubs have sufficient membership lists, but insufficient actual participants willing to actually assist in the mechanics of putting on an event. Unfortunately in too many cases this leads to a few dedicated members doing yoeman duties to make sure a trial occurs

I really enjoyed spending the Thursday before the 3DQ with you and Larry. Those trials ran well, as they had a large active membership involved including some younger members. They even managed to have an enjoyable tailgate on Saturday Sadly this seems to becoming rarer and rarer.

I for one appreciate and commend the contibutions of the old guard such as yourself, Cliff & Jeannie Garland and many others. Unfortunately, I bemoan the fact that they are pulling more than their fair share, and they don't seem to be getting replaced by the next generation

I'm opposed to legislating participation, but we may be forced to implement something; such as only accepting so many entries from an owner before requiring that they judge, man a gun station, marshall or perform some duty before they can enter another stake.
Additionally, as the game becomes more pro dominated, I feel it would benifit the pros to take some of their handlers fees and hire help. It would behoove them to not kill the goose that is laying the golden eggs


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I'm not sure how 3 or 4 people can be considered a "club." Too me thats barely a tree house.  I think the problem lies in the fact that the entire purpose of the "club" is to put on a trial. The club needs to exist for the people first. There needs to be some value to the people and initially for most new people that is in learning to work with a dog, train a dog and building friendships with like minded folks. It needs to be family oriented. Without that, people won't get involved. 

As for those who just get a pro and never do anything else, I believe there will always be those people, but instead of being a majority they could be the minority. I would think that once clubs start focusing on being clubs instead of trial mechanisms that the average family would join, get involved and then we would start to see the balance shift back. 

/Paul


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

That is sad to hear. Snake River seems to be to be one of the older clubs in this neck of the woods.

On another note, I still plan to work hard not only at running the hunt test and august field trial, but at welcoming new people into the sport and treating them like I would want to be treated or like I was treated when I was new. I had SO many people help me along the way, offering advice, taking me training, etc etc. I am so hooked on the sport you couldn't drag me away. 

FWIW, Lanse has ALWAYS invited new (and old) people to train with. He has access to fantastic training property in Montana. This year I'm planning to camp out up there for awhile this summer and take him up on his graciousness. Love You Lanse

Kris


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## Karen McCullah (Feb 28, 2007)

I have tried over the years to work for clubs, and have, marshalling mostly, helping with set up, and even judged a couple of D/Qs....however, every time I have done so, the "experienced" people have not mentored me...instead, they have yelled at me, cursed me, forced me to stay at my stake until the stake my dog is running in is held up, thereby getting me yelled at upon arrival to that stake, missing every dog to run...I've helped in cold and rain ALONE only to be told I should have been "fired"...so I quietly stopped volunteering ahead of time, helping if necessary and eventually only ran my dogs twice a season. 
I've always expressed interest in learning more about the sport, although only friends of my father have seriously mentored me (including him, thanks Dad!)
But the most important thing my father taught me is to WORK and HELP out, even if I'm not a member, even if it's only running birds out or putting up a holding blind. If I see something that needs to be done, I just do it.

This fall at separate field trials, I ran birds out, helped set up a stake, etc....I didn't know anyone there, and when someone noticed I was helping, they asked who I was and looked at me like I had 3 heads. That's really sad. I don't like that a bunch of young people are standing around waiting and complaining that nothing's started and doing nothing to pitch in and help. (and just because you're a lady in the south is no excuse!) 
What's worse, is seeing the older folk lifting/hauling/running, etc...it makes me skeered! 

I've also wanted to be mentored to judge an AA stake. I actually would have loved to do one with my father, but the "powers that be" didn't want us together. He is THE most ethical person I know and would give a greenie to his best friend and a blue to the dog/handler who kicked his @$$ and not think twice about it....something I've seen the opposite of happen too frequently. 
But judging scares me to death, to be honest. I want to learn from/judge with someone ethical, knowledgeable, fun, honest....not someone put in position to help their friends. 

The last judging assignment I had was with a person I didn't know, but I knew the club, they knew me, and I learned so much from him, the marshalls/handlers/helpers were great, we sat in pouring rain and laughed about it, and the club was absolutely amazing. If I could repeat that situation, I'd judge every weekend!

One thing I will say is that I STRONGLY believe that the tailgates should happen at every trial. I think that atmosphere of relaxed, non-competitive socializing is important for the sport. I know everyone is tired at the end of the day, but that's where all the "nuggets" are passed down, from the experienced to the newbies. Friendships are made that last YEARS, training groups are formed/added to....the sport GROWS.
As a new person on the east coast, I was surprised there were no tailgates. I had to run at least 4 trials before I met someone who I had a meal with. After the trial, I went back to my motel alone. Relaxing, yes, fun, no. 

So, any clubs that see me, will see a helper, member or not. If someone else out there is eating alone, find me, I'll be in my motel room.

I know, I know, after I make this post, the fight started......


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm not sure how 3 or 4 people can be considered a "club." Too me thats barely a tree house.  I think the problem lies in the fact that the entire purpose of the "club" is to put on a trial. The club needs to exist for the people first. There needs to be some value to the people and initially for most new people that is in learning to work with a dog, train a dog and building friendships with like minded folks. It needs to be family oriented. Without that, people won't get involved.
> 
> As for those who just get a pro and never do anything else, I believe there will always be those people, but instead of being a majority they could be the minority. I would think that once clubs start focusing on being clubs instead of trial mechanisms that the average family would join, get involved and then we would start to see the balance shift back.
> 
> /Paul


*Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. *


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Bayou Magic said:


> WOW! All of you shunned folks need to come to Oklahoma. I know one club (actually just a few people that like the game) that will welcome you AND put your butt to work!!!
> 
> fp


Come to Minnesota (NFHRA) and we will do the same. Love to have new blood.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Many people go to enjoy the weekend for whatever that means,,but it ususally doesn't include throwing birds from sun up to sun down.
It doesn't generally include sitting out in the hot sun or cold driving rain all day either. So from a people management perspective make that not happen. 

Think about it,,, Who in there right mind would start a club or join a club so they can do that.

People need nurturing, exposer to the sport, a cold beer and a pat on the back. They need people to be friendly and smile at them once in a while. They need other club activities so they can form some kind of bond so there can be some type of obligational behavior formed. Family and friends work together.


You cant FF people to perform a job. It builds resentment.

If you have 50 members I'll bet with the right approach/ and motivation many will respond properly. 
Rotate workers evrey hour or so. Maby we can Start with this at the picinic trial level,,there standing around right in front of our noses.

I saw how well LRC in maryland aproached this in their picinic trials. It worked great and we got 3 big set ups done by 2 o clock with 40 plus dogs. And everybody was happy. I think.

Believe it or not
respect,consideration, a smile and a pat on the back go along way,, and a few people to pick up a little slack here and there could make life easier.

There will always be that core group that make it happen but I believe more people would get involved if the motivation was different.

We need to leave the corperate mentallity where it belongs.. in the garbage. Its ruining america and our clubs.



That my perspective any way.


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Paul, you are exactly correct. In 1965 when Dana and I first started we reluctantly bought a bitch from Torch and read James Lamb Free. This bitch was to use Black Duck hunting on Long Island . In 1966 I ran a Sanction trial-Southern Berkshire Golden Retriever Club with Helen Ginnell and Frank Hazeltine judging-5" rain and a JAM in a Sanction Derby--cry yes, elated yes determined yes -Mariah went on to be high point labrador bitch-about 302 AA points. Since passed by CannonBall Kate.The point is there were clubs most all that had fun trials, picnic trials, Sanctioned trials and we had lots of neebies and their famlies. If the 12 years Dana and I spent putting on Sanctioned trials, driving to Del, Md, Buffalo, Syracuse, Penn did anything it allowed us to learn from Jay Sweezzy, Louise and Augie, Vance Morris, Roger Vassellais,Walt Carrion, Paul Kiernan , Ed Carey, Chuck Morgan and many other people who cared. It is very similar to the breakdown of the family today- parents are too busy to teach their children and thus turn it over to the schools-thus no discipline. Club trophies were a big deal-DAMN it was good to beat Bob Willow and Mike Paterno(won a couple of NARCCS) and take home the top qualifying dog in New Jersey trophy. The clubs that still have membership dinners, work days where we learn to throw a bumper over a flag pole while turning and all other aspects of training will remain successful-those clubs that don't will fold.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Goldenboy said:


> ...and then there are the people who won't be deterred, who want to participate and who are willing to deal with the inevitable crap and occasional lack of consideration (that exists everywhere, by the way) to make this pursuit a success. They must find enough enjoyment and personal satisfaction to make the experience worthwhile.
> 
> Better opportunites come to those who prove themselves over time, especially under adversity.
> 
> Susan, I've met you and I know that you're no shrinking violet;-)



Mark-

I'm going to address this only because I think you should know exactly where I'm coming from. I don't want to work from a perspective of martyrdom. I guess I don't understand the lack of consideration. I truly don't. And again-those of us who are willing and WANT to work need to feel as though we're working with and for people that understand it's a lot of work to make these things run smoothly, but also FUN if you get the right mix of people and an honor to be able to be a part of something that allows great dogs to shine.

As for "better opportunities coming to those who prove themselves"-I guess I'm not sure how long someone is supposed to want to work where there is a lack of consideration when there are some clubs where you're made to feel welcome and that running and training your dog is also an integral reason for the club to exist.

I know some folks who are new to all of this and recently joined a club. They could offer a LOT in terms of grounds, the ability to handle any job given them, etc., but they are a bit perplexed at -again-what seems to be membership with only an opportunity to work. It's not a good way to drum up new members or have folks who have been around a while stick around.

M


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm not sure how 3 or 4 people can be considered a "club." Too me thats barely a tree house.  I think the problem lies in the fact that the entire purpose of the "club" is to put on a trial. The club needs to exist for the people first. There needs to be some value to the people and initially for most new people that is in learning to work with a dog, train a dog and building friendships with like minded folks. It needs to be family oriented. Without that, people won't get involved.
> 
> As for those who just get a pro and never do anything else, I believe there will always be those people, but instead of being a majority they could be the minority. I would think that once clubs start focusing on being clubs instead of trial mechanisms that the average family would join, get involved and then we would start to see the balance shift back.
> 
> /Paul


Stop. The world has just ended.

Paul and I 100% agree on something.

Carry on regards,


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I would think that once clubs start focusing on being clubs instead of trial mechanisms that the average family would join, get involved and then we would start to see the balance shift back.
> /Paul


 
That sounds good on paper but for those who both work and train their own dogs where is the time and incentive for a social club? 

Additionally I thought that Hunt Test clubs provided the "club" atmosphere for families.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> That sounds good on paper but for those who both work and train their own dogs where is the time and incentive for a social club?
> 
> Additionally I thought that Hunt Test clubs provided the "club" atmosphere for families.


I disagree with you Ed.

But since you like me better in person, I'll talk about it over a beer with you sometime instead of here.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I disagree with you Ed.
> .


not surprising so go organize a retriever social club and see how members you get...

besides I had my annual beer(s) at the Merle Haggard gig


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> I disagree with you Ed.
> 
> But since you like me better in person, I'll talk about it over a beer with you sometime instead of here.


Everybody that knows you likes you better in person. HAHAHAHAHA

Who's buyin?

SM


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

EdA said:


> That sounds good on paper but for those who both work and train their own dogs where is the time and incentive for a social club?
> 
> Additionally I thought that Hunt Test clubs provided the "club" atmosphere for families.


That is what I said in the last thread about clubs....

Sounds great on paper and in writting and gives everyone a warm and fuzzy.....

I have about 1-2 hours in the evening to train after work, I'm efficient with my time, those who want to train with me better be there and on time.....I did the whole love me hug me crap with the NAHRA club thinking it fostered a club atmosphere and all it did was cause me to help others get their started title, ignore my own dog's needs and still ended up with zero active members.....they got what they wanted.....club training days, yeah show up run their dogs and then "oh no, i got to get home....." blah, blah, blah......

It all sounds good.....but when it comes to working few people want to do it.....have BBQs, have fun trials, spin your wheels....you want to train with me, then be there, be on time and be freaking dependable (sp?).....we can socialize after it gets dark and can't train!

FOM


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Everybody that knows you likes you better in person. HAHAHAHAHA
> SM


Only people that know Gut in person and online know how much truth there is to this statement! 
Not an allhose, just playin one online regards


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

I must be stupid because I keep accepting judging assignments and the chance to a club member and volunteer to work at trials. 

The way I look at it there is a hundred people at a trial and 6 or so people not counting hired bird throwers and judges doing all the work. The rest of the people sit in the gallery and bitch about the judging and how the trial is run. If not at the trial they run to the Internet and whine there. If anyone does not like any test I have set up or the level of work performed please let me know. I will gladly let you step up and take my place. Maybe some of the old guard is going away. I have talked with a lot of old timers and they said it was much more fun in the day. Now people don't appreciate anything done for them. I can see why folks wont volunteer. Your 75 dollar entry fee is to cover expenses. I will stop typing now before I pi$$ more people off.


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Steve Amrein said:


> I must be stupid because I keep accepting judging assignments and the chance to a club member and volunteer to work at trials.
> 
> The way I look at it there is a hundred people at a trial and 6 or so people not counting hired bird throwers and judges doing all the work. The rest of the people sit in the gallery and bitch about the judging and how the trial is run. If not at the trial they run to the Internet and whine there. If anyone does not like any test I have set up or the level of work performed please let me know. I will gladly let you step up and take my place. Maybe some of the old guard is going away. I have talked with a lot of old timers and they said it was much more fun in the day. Now people don't appreciate anything done for them. I can see why folks wont volunteer. Your 75 dollar entry fee is to cover expenses. I will stop typing now before I pi$$ more people off.


you're just trying to get out of judging!


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## Aaron Homburg (Sep 23, 2005)

Don't you think a lot of this is due to the fact that we as a society are caught up in a lot more activities than used to be the case? The idea of a social club is nice but when are you going to do it? A lot of the "new blood" or the people coming up in the sport have ten thousand different activities going on and adding a social club to the calendar is not going to happen. I believe I can count on two hands the amount of kids that I have seen at a FT. Gotta love Brodee jumping up and down on dads truck while he is running
It all comes down to priorities, we all only have so much time and unless you make time for something it will be pushed aside.

Rambling Regards,

Aaron


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## Dustin Maddux (Aug 18, 2008)

North Texas guys, point me in the right direction...

What is the local FT club? I have a pup (my first) that may have what it takes to play this game. I had never even thought about FT's until this past weekend. I took my pup out to Paul Knutson so he could take him back to his wife for more training. I spent two days training with Paul and my pup held his own on the setups and showed some raw talent. 

I won't be able to afford to put Trip on a pro's truck year round and I also need him to pick up ducks during season. I'm looking for club where I can contribute and learn the game. I am willing to help throw birds on weekends and work club trials. I won't have my dog back until fall but would like to join a club and help out asap.

I guess I'm the new blood you guys are talking about. Just a one dog show looking to run the local circuit and meet some people with the same passion.


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## Mike Noel (Sep 26, 2003)

Aaron Homburg said:


> Don't you think a lot of this is due to the fact that we as a society are caught up in a lot more activities than used to be the case? The idea of a social club is nice but when are you going to do it? A lot of the "new blood" or the people coming up in the sport have ten thousand different activities going on and adding a social club to the calendar is not going to happen. I believe I can count on two hands the amount of kids that I have seen at a FT. Gotta love Brodee jumping up and down on dads truck while he is running
> It all comes down to priorities, we all only have so much time and unless you make time for something it will be pushed aside.
> 
> Rambling Regards,
> ...


I would say that is a huge piece of it Aaron. I know for sure that my parents had more free time when I was a kid than I do today with mine. My folks still gasp when they hear their grandkids "schedules". 

I was never at any trials back in the good ol' days but the feeling I get when folks talk about them makes me think they were more of an "event" for everyone to enjoy (even as you pitched in) as opposed to today where the feel is more "business-like".....get done, give me my ribbon, SEE YA!


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## achiro (Jun 17, 2003)

Aaron Homburg said:


> Don't you think a lot of this is due to the fact that we as a society are caught up in a lot more activities than used to be the case? The idea of a social club is nice but when are you going to do it? A lot of the "new blood" or the people coming up in the sport have ten thousand different activities going on and adding a social club to the calendar is not going to happen. I believe I can count on two hands the amount of kids that I have seen at a FT. Gotta love Brodee jumping up and down on dads truck while he is running
> It all comes down to priorities, we all only have so much time and unless you make time for something it will be pushed aside.
> 
> Rambling Regards,
> ...


That's part of it, thats also a big part of the reason pros are so popular I suppose. 
On the pro note:
1-3 guys running 20-60 dogs(as part of a 100 dog open) vs 15-20 guys running 20-30 dogs(in a 50 dog open) makes a much different trial. More help, more free time, more fun...


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Miriam Wade said:


> I know some folks who are new to all of this and recently joined a club. They could offer a LOT in terms of grounds, the ability to handle any job given them, etc., but they are a bit perplexed at -again-what seems to be membership with only an opportunity to work. It's not a good way to drum up new members or have folks who have been around a while stick around.
> 
> M


Miriam,

If any of these people are members of LCRC have them contact me directly and I will do everything that I can to make them feel welcome, useful, and rewarded (as rewarding as working your butt off can be). 

The LCRC board recognized the lack of club member opprotunities and re-instituted at least three club tests, a singles competition, and a training seminar along with our annual banquet where all manner of achievements were recognized (even a dock-diving retriever). 

Additionally, we're one of the only clubs in the country to put on tests in AKC, HRC and NAHRA. All of which are run by the same group of 8-10 people that have been doing everything for years.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

I believe you get OUT of something exactly what you put INTO it!

That said, I believe that if you attend a LOCAL trial, why not join that club and help with the production. If you are there, you are getting something out of it.

Training connections, grounds access, mentoring--all those things can be accomplished from the associations you gain while being a part of the club, just not necessarily from the club itself, depending upon its structure/objectives.

I believe the old "What's in it for me" is a pretty proven excuse for not participating in the work!


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Ken Guthrie said:


> But since you like me better in person, I'll talk about it over a beer with you sometime instead of here.


that would make a perfect signature....mind if i use it or are you going to TM it?? ;-)


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

A question for those chairing the trials. 
While you as Chairman are doing all the work seting up the trial, what is the rest of the committee doing ?
Do you not have meetings to decide on the logistics of the trial? Or is it that you call all of the shots?..... and the rest are treated as warm bodies with no say at all in any meaningful decision. 

john


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

We at Midwest and AARC are a well-oiled machine. Everyone knows they must do "everything" and it always gets done---and done well we think!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

achiro said:


> Only people that know Gut in person and online know how much truth there is to this statement!
> Not an allhose, just playin one online regards


thats one of the reasons I am afraid of meeting Guthrie,if he is a good guy who will i have to spar with on line,kind of like Darth Vader what happens when you pull the mask off...

Now back to the subject at hand...when I used to organize and put on golf tournaments I learned one thing, I could NOT play in the tournament, not if I wanted the tournament to go smoothly and the players to have a good time and get their monies worth..same goes for field trials its hard to be the host and also participate in the trial, and since the show comes to your town only twice a year its unfair to ask the host to not run in their own trial.

Maybe this has been discussed but can the sport afford a viable third party to put the trial/test on..we already use EE..what if there was a group like a rockstar roadie unit that would go to each trial and set up and run the show almost like hiring a caterer, so the hosts can enjoy their own party/trial


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> We at Midwest and AARC are a well-oiled machine. Everyone knows they must do "everything" and it always gets done---and done well we think!


Within the FT Committee frmework who does what ?


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

Aaron Homburg said:


> Don't you think a lot of this is due to the fact that we as a society are caught up in a lot more activities than used to be the case? The idea of a social club is nice but when are you going to do it? A lot of the "new blood" or the people coming up in the sport have ten thousand different activities going on and adding a social club to the calendar is not going to happen. I believe I can count on two hands the amount of kids that I have seen at a FT. Gotta love Brodee jumping up and down on dads truck while he is running
> It all comes down to priorities, we all only have so much time and unless you make time for something it will be pushed aside.
> 
> Rambling Regards,
> ...


What Aaron says is so true . Little league ,soccer , scouts ........all take time . All of them are suffering for lack of volunteers , by and large . And thats for America's children . Do you really think they will have time to work for the local Dog Club ?????????

And the stories of the cold shoulders and no one returning the phone calls is another reflection on society , IMHO . I know of some who took the club's officers position for their resume more than actually wanting to help the sport .
And then you have others , and we know who they are , do the work of 5 . The sport would be dead without you . Thank You .
That being said , I remember Karen Cropper going from truck to truck trying to find me a copy of RFTN at a Swamp Dog Trial . Very kind and helpful to the novice with the mutt in the Town Car .
But when the judge was screaming at me that the bird has to hit that exact spot ,with a splash , like I was a child . I wondered what he was going to do when HE hit that spot .LOL
But I was throwing birds for a bunch of FC/AFCs and a future NFC .And I was in Awe .
And the hook was set .


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

bonbonjovi said:


> thats one of the reasons I am afraid of meeting Guthrie,if he is a good guy who will i have to spar with on line,kind of like Darth Vader what happens when you pull the mask off...
> 
> Now back to the subject at hand...when I used to organize and put on golf tournaments I learned one thing, I could NOT play in the tournament, not if I wanted the tournament to go smoothly and the players to have a good time and get their monies worth..same goes for field trials its hard to be the host and also participate in the trial, and since the show comes to your town only twice a year its unfair to ask the host to not run in their own trial.
> 
> Maybe this has been discussed but can the sport afford a viable third party to put the trial/test on..we already use EE..what if there was a group like a rockstar roadie unit that would go to each trial and set up and run the show almost like hiring a caterer, so the hosts can enjoy their own party/trial


I'd call my lawyer if I was you and copyright that idea , or watch Shayne rack up the greenbacks . LOL , I think .


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

bonbonjovi said:


> ...............what if there was a group like a rockstar roadie unit that would go to each trial and set up and run the show almost like hiring a caterer, so the hosts can enjoy their own party/trial


Would a club be willing to pay 85% of the grose on the first 150 dogs and then a sliding scale after that for that service?

If not what would they be willing to pay ?

john


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

bonbonjovi said:


> Maybe this has been discussed but can the sport afford a viable third party to put the trial/test on..we already use EE..what if there was a group like a rockstar roadie unit that would go to each trial and set up and run the show almost like hiring a caterer, so the hosts can enjoy their own party/trial


Ken Bora made a similar suggestion last year:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22926&highlight=trial+company


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> that would make a perfect signature....mind if i use it or are you going to TM it?? ;-)


Take it...........it's all yours.

Just remember me if there are any royalties in the future.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

If I correctly recall, many, if not most, field trial households had spouses that did not have to work for a living. Often those were the ones who prepared lunches, did the cocktail party food/set-ups; picked up/delivered judges to/from airports; shopped for judges' and placement gifts; etc. 

Now we have double income families where both have to work to make it and have a little left over for fun; no time for anything beyond the daily grind, some attention to family, some attention to training or another activity (golf, tennis, etc.). It's why more and more people use professional trainers--time, not lack of desire to do it for themselves.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

bonbonjovi said:


> Now back to the subject at hand...when I used to organize and put on golf tournaments I learned one thing, I could NOT play in the tournament, not if I wanted the tournament to go smoothly and the players to have a good time and get their monies worth..same goes for field trials its hard to be the host and also participate in the trial, and since the show comes to your town only twice a year its unfair to ask the host to not run in their own trial.


I agree that this is the challenge. If you are working, it really is tough to run your dog. In some cases, it is easier (it is less disruptive for a marshall to get someone to take over for a little while while they go run their dog than for a gun, for example) but then the folks who do the bulk of the work end up not being able to run in their home event. And, when there is an event right in your own back yard, that is one you really want to run.

In most of the clubs I have been a member of, once you volunteer, if you don't screw up, it is sort of assumed that you will continue to do so and you are pencil-ed in. Then when you say, I have a dog I would like to run this year, the few who are the backbone of the workers have to work that much harder.

From my perspective, if the club does other stuff than run events (training days or club trials or whatever) that is the real value to me and I am more amenable to volunteering at the event and not running. It is the ones that you only hear from twice a year when they call you to shoot or judge or whatever that bug me.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Wiredlabz said:


> One thing I will say is that I STRONGLY believe that the tailgates should happen at every trial. I think that atmosphere of relaxed, non-competitive socializing is important for the sport. I know everyone is tired at the end of the day, but that's where all the "nuggets" are passed down, from the experienced to the newbies. Friendships are made that last YEARS, training groups are formed/added to....the sport GROWS.
> As a new person on the east coast, I was surprised there were no tailgates. I had to run at least 4 trials before I met someone who I had a meal with. After the trial, I went back to my motel alone. Relaxing, yes, fun, no.
> 
> So, any clubs that see me, will see a helper, member or not. If someone else out there is eating alone, find me, I'll be in my motel room.
> ...


Well said!!


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

We used to have a cocktail party on the grounds after the last dog was run on Saturday nights. We also made it our judges dinner. It didn't take long before the only attendees for whatever reason were the bird boys and the gunners. The majority of the contestants were too tired to attend; the pros didn't want to attend; and the workers were still out cleaning up the field so all the food was eaten by the time they were done. We stopped having a party.

We now feed workers and judges dinner. Not only did it save a considerable expense (we had it catered as all members live too far away from the grounds to cook/bring hot food), but it also saved those same few club members who didn't get to eat for cleaning up after the tests from also having to clean up the building on the site once everyone who did eat left.

We have a field trial club. We want members who want to run trials and who are willing to work to put on trials. We do have a membership meeting/party--really a banquet-type get-together that is very social. We don't need complainers (we can handle that part just fine on our own). We do need people who want to host a quality field trial that contestants can enjoy--who can actually take satisfaction from a job well-done. 

Yes, it is a given that member contestants are at a disadvantage at their own club's trials because they are not truly focused on running their dog(s) to the exclusion of all else. That's what you do at other clubs' trials.

I believe we have pretty much gotten away, for the most part, from the casual participant as a serious member and worker. There are still some who only run the home club's trial, but they are not the majority of trial workers/club members who put on trials anymore. Most club members work hard for their home club(s), and run a significant number of trials.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

The first licensed trial I ever ran was a Derby at Snake river in 1965. 5 of us loaded up in Bob Sparks carryall & went to the trial at Blackfoot, ID. Don Burnett & some guy with a golden ran the club & did quite well. In those days the Open was on Friday, Derby & Q on Saturday & the Am on Sunday. Besides doing most of the running on cut alfalfa fields & irrigation ponds, some quite large, the biggest event of the trial was the buffet at the Colonial Inn on Saturday night. Great food, $3 for all you could eat.

In those days taxes were much less - I paid about 12% on our gross with a wife who was a homemaker. Today I have the same wife but the governments take would be closer to 25% were I paying rather than drawing SS.

It was more fun when I started, people socialized more, besides the tailgates I always looked forward to the Missoula trial where they held the Saturday night, pay your own way, feed at the Steak House in East Missoula. Guy Burnett would get up & entertain the crowd with dog stories, making it a fun night for all. 

When I came to the West Coast I expected things to be somewhat similar. When the premium advertised a judges dinner, which in MT meant all could come, I went & found it was not that way at all. But the upper crust were very willing to let you stand in in the rain all day so you could throw birds for their pro to run their dog. So things really have'nt changed all that much.

But we had lots of informal events where knowledge was passed on, probably 10 per year here on the Coast. That is now down to 2 & they have been watered down so much that it would be difficult for even a newbie to come away with anything of value. 

I blame the decline in club members to the practice of hiring people to do all the work at trials. There is little need for someone who believes themselves to be a something special to work with the diverse personalities that go into a successful trial giving club. Clubs can now fall under the influence of a few individuals whose only agenda is self promotion. 

Add to that the large entries by the professionals, the amateur professionals & you have a recipe for overwork of the meager work force.

Most people in this sport are decent people, that there have been some who have come in & ruined the sport for all just does not surprise me. It does not take away the joy of watching good dog work but it makes the atmosphere less palatable.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Marvin , I was wondering if you would show and comment on this subject...great post !!


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

Wow - after reading this thread I feel really lucky!! I recently joined a FT club and the members couldn't be more welcoming and friendly. I am looking forward to working at my first trial this spring and cheering everyone on. It's great to have them as mentors, and I plan on picking up any bones they want to throw my way. 

Kathryn


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Not picking on you specifically.....But I think these are some of the reasons that the "old guys" are tired of it all.

In most of the clubs I have been a member of, once you volunteer, if you don't screw up, it is sort of assumed that you will continue to do so and you are pencil-ed in. Then when you say, I have a dog I would like to run this year, the few who are the backbone of the workers have to work that much harder.
Don't all the workers at the trial have dogs that they want to run too? When do they get to concentrate on only running their dogs?

From my perspective, if the club does other stuff than run events (training days or club trials or whatever) that is the real value to me and I am more amenable to volunteering at the event and not running. It is the ones that you only hear from twice a year when they call you to shoot or judge or whatever that bug me.[/quote]
So are you suggesting that the people who do all the work at the field trials take 6 or 8 more weekends and work to put on training days and club trials??? When do the "givers" get to train their dogs????

John Lash


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Boring whiners! Ah, the good old days... you could feed a family of four for a buck, gas was a quarter, blah, blah, blah. I'll bet that the generation before you felt the same way. 

The camaraderie, at least here in the Northeast, is alive and well. There is absolutely no place that I would rather be than at a Trial hanging with friends, renewing acquaintances, watching the dogs, listening to the bitching and moaning, participating in the bitching and moaning, working the trial, anything. Sure beats work.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

DoubleHaul said:


> From my perspective, if the club does other stuff than run events (training days or club trials or whatever) that is the real value to me and I am more amenable to volunteering at the event and not running. It is the ones that you only hear from twice a year when they call you to shoot or judge or whatever that bug me.


Well there you go Ed.

See? Folks think like me too. 

Heck, the North Texas Retriever Club could offer a training day at Skeeters Slough.

Folks would come from miles away.

If you build it they will come regards,


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> What you say is sad but true, and could be the eventual demise of our sport if the next generation doesn't step up and replace the old guard. By stepping up, I mean more than just writing checks to your pro and for entry fees.
> Too many clubs have sufficient membership lists, but insufficient actual participants willing to step up........ they don't seem to be getting replaced by the next generation.


The next generation is there. The problem is that entries, dog work and training methods have evolved but AKC Field Trial procedures have not.

The popularity of HTs and the Master National is proof that people still like playing dog games and are willing put on these events. HTs are todays version of the Sanction FT of 30-40 years ago. This was and is the breeding ground of that next generation of FTers. 

Previous generations had to commit to an event that at most took 3 days with each stake 1-2 days and a high handler to dog ratio. This is not the case today.

Procedural changes in how FTs are conducted will be needed to encourage people to make the jump to a competitive venue. They are there!

Tim


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

John Lash said:


> Not picking on you specifically.....But I think these are some of the reasons that the "old guys" are tired of it all.
> 
> In most of the clubs I have been a member of, once you volunteer, if you don't screw up, it is sort of assumed that you will continue to do so and you are pencil-ed in. Then when you say, I have a dog I would like to run this year, the few who are the backbone of the workers have to work that much harder.
> Don't all the workers at the trial have dogs that they want to run too? When do they get to concentrate on only running their dogs?


That was basically my point. I will work with no problem if I don't have a dog I want to run, but if I do, I either can't work or have to have something that doesn't require me to stand out in the field all day with a sack of birds. Sometimes I (and other folks) want to run our dogs and sleep in our own beds and when not running our dogs either head home (on a bad day) or hang out and watch other dogs run while waiting for the next series (on a good day). I feel bad when I do this since most of the clubs in which I have been a member do not have a ton of folks to run these things and it hurts when a regular volunteer just wants to enjoy the day. So, I usually just end up working for my home club and running at other clubs.



John Lash said:


> From my perspective, if the club does other stuff than run events (training days or club trials or whatever) that is the real value to me and I am more amenable to volunteering at the event and not running. It is the ones that you only hear from twice a year when they call you to shoot or judge or whatever that bug me.
> So are you suggesting that the people who do all the work at the field trials take 6 or 8 more weekends and work to put on training days and club trials??? When do the "givers" get to train their dogs????
> 
> John Lash


You have a point. However, IME training days and club events are usually less formal. You have a heck of a lot fewer dogs/handlers and it doesn't screw things up to switch out a gunner when he or she needs to get a dog ready to run. And the folks with lots of experience are usually more laid back and more willing to give advice. That was my point. Sure, I'm still working and some folks will run their dog and disappear, but it is much less of a grind. If there is some of this at least I get something out of it.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

wow, we really had it made in the shade "back in the day" - in the early 1990's i think Tejas was the biggest club in the country , i am guessing but maybe well over 100 members - i never heard a real number myself but 40 - 60 would regularly show up at the monthly meetings at Ottos for barbecue and beer and a good speaker.

there never was a problem filling positions for tests, but even with so many members there were still periods where many of the workers were the same old folks, so that never changes.

i really feel for you smaller clubs. thats gotta be tough. hat's off to doing what you have done so far.


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## Jim Person (Jan 5, 2003)

Goldenboy, You have company now and we are both in the northeast. YWHRC will now be hosting AKC,HRC, and NAHRA tests,as well as a singles and pheasant championship. Although this has been a tough winter,new england is a good place to be. Jim


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Field clubs could also welcome people with rare breeds. Not all retrievers come in black, otter coats.

I once ran an HRT or sanctioned picnic field trial in the early 1980's and some guy said I didn't have a purebred dog and complained to the test secretary that I was running a "mutt". I was running a Curly Coated Retriever from one of the most famous Curly breeders in the world at that time. 

My dog didn't pass at that test, and never passed at a hunt test (I ran two with him) or qualify at a licensed field trial. It was pretty awful to have someone complain to the test secretary that I was running a "mutt". This was the same "mutt" that an assistant to a noted pro trainer wanted to buy after seeing the "mutt" work once.

I would like to thank Vern and Nora Larson, after all this time, for caring enough to help me with this dog. I was in college at that time and couldn't afford pro training (have never been able to afford it.) We could never, ever steady the dog. You could steady him for one series but he would get wilder and wilder. The Larsons advised me on all kinds of way to steady the dog (including digging a trench, filling it with pine boughs). The Larsons were kind enough to help someone with a really rare breed. They even said I could come out and train with them. I never did train with them or really even train for tests (I've hunted curlies for 30 years.) But the Larsons were willing to help someone, even a person who they knew wouldn't be in the market for a lab puppy from them or anyone else. The Larsons just thought it was interesting to work with a dog of any breed. They were so kind and so interested in dogs, whether Labs or "mutts".

Janean Marti
Ptarmigan Curly Coated Retrievers
Established 1977


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Here's an observation that in some cases is the reason for the conundrum.

It is not, not being able to find willing help. It is the inability of the old guard to relinquish any of their authority within the club that in time causes even the most willing to reassess their commitment.

john


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Marvin S said:


> The first licensed trial I ever ran was a Derby at Snake river in 1965. 5 of us loaded up in Bob Sparks carryall & went to the trial at Blackfoot, ID. Don Burnett & some guy with a golden ran the club & did quite well. In those days the Open was on Friday, Derby & Q on Saturday & the Am on Sunday. Besides doing most of the running on cut alfalfa fields & irrigation ponds, some quite large, the biggest event of the trial was the buffet at the Colonial Inn on Saturday night. Great food, $3 for all you could eat.
> 
> In those days taxes were much less - I paid about 12% on our gross with a wife who was a homemaker. Today I have the same wife but the governments take would be closer to 25% were I paying rather than drawing SS.
> 
> ...


Now some will read this, or scan it, and pass it off as BS and think the "good ole'" days are long gone. Some will claim they want a field trial club with no whining expecting interested folks to show up and earn their stripes. The same will claim their ain't enough time in the year to train, work, and put on trials so leave the social mumbo jumbo for those who drink tea.

The point is, when all of us come to our last days on earth, I for one won't remember any ribbon hanging on my wall. Nor will I be able to add the points that were printed in some retriever publication. I won't remember that cast off a point, or first series of some derby my dog won.

What will you remember?

I'll remember playing the guitar in a hayfield with participants gathering around.

I'll remember crying in the arms of friends when my dog recieved it's AFC.

I'll remember drinking beer while screaming at airing dogs in the middle of the dark.

I'll remember the smell of wet dogs coming out of a kennel.

I'll remember that first series test that looks like its should be drawn for RFTN.

I'll remember starring down at my dog's head at honor in the last series.

I'll remember sitting with Chester talking small talk at a trial.

I'll remember watching NFC Rocket.

I'll remember that frosty morning in our favorite slough watching a drake mallard respond to our call while my paw partners starts shaking. Not because it's cold, because that's what he was meant to do.

I'm sorry, but if I can't have those days, I ain't showing up to throw anyones bird no matter how many years you've been in the game. 

Because when they're gone, you've got nothing but memories. If all you can do is count points and ribbons, than I think your bad for the game. If all you want to do is put on 2 trials so you can run every other one without guilt, I think that is bad for the game. If that is whining, so be it. 

I hope everybody on here can hurry up and win the next National or National Amatuer with their famous breeding so we all can start focusing on what's really important about this game.

If your club solely exists so you can sign catalogues on Sunday and slap a stamp on em', have at it.

But our dogs and the memories we share from their existance will surely suffer from it.

Nice post Marvin. I long for the good ole' days.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Now some will read this, or scan it, and pass it off as BS and think the "good ole'" days are long gone. Some will claim they want a field trial club with no whining expecting interested folks to show up and earn their stripes. The same will claim their ain't enough time in the year to train, work, and put on trials so leave the social mumbo jumbo for those who drink tea.
> 
> The point is, when all of us come to our last days on earth, I for one won't remember any ribbon hanging on my wall. Nor will I be able to add the points that were printed in some retriever publication. I won't remember that cast off a point, or first series of some derby my dog won.
> 
> ...


Good ol days? Dude... most of those were in the last few years! The Field Trial hosting club does not make the memories... the people you're with make the memories!

SM


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

offering yourself up to the pres of the local club and not even getting a response is a bit of a put off as well really


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Now some will read this, or scan it, and pass it off as BS and think the "good ole'" days are long gone. Some will claim they want a field trial club with no whining expecting interested folks to show up and earn their stripes. The same will claim their ain't enough time in the year to train, work, and put on trials so leave the social mumbo jumbo for those who drink tea.
> 
> The point is, when all of us come to our last days on earth, I for one won't remember any ribbon hanging on my wall. Nor will I be able to add the points that were printed in some retriever publication. I won't remember that cast off a point, or first series of some derby my dog won.
> 
> ...


Now thats what I'm talkin about...priceless Gut...


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> offering yourself up to the pres of the local club and not even getting a response is a bit of a put off as well really[/quote
> 
> The inability to be able to now adequately convey the inner workings of the club in question is the reason for the delay.
> 
> ...


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Good ol days? Dude... most of those were in the last few years! The Field Trial hosting club does not make the memories... the people you're with make the memories!
> 
> SM


You missed the point.

I had something all typed up in response to yours but my New Years resolution got the best of me.

Some people do, some people don't.....

Dave Mathews Band regards,


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

Not wanting to say field trial events and beer drinking used to really draw the cub members. The liability laws curtailed this type of partying and the increase in insurace rates. Back in the '70's we used tohave an Annual Corn Feed and a keg of beer. When the beer was stopped there was no incentive to attend.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> I had something all typed up in response to yours but my New Years resolution got the best of me.
> 
> ...


Well Gutman. I think we're on the same page with this one. I very much enjoy hearing the stories about the "old" days, stuff that Richard posts, Lance and even though he hates my guts Marvin's post. I remember sitting with Mr. Bob Pepper hearing about the old days running Jiggs and listening to funny training stories. I learned long ago, that while the accomplishements are impressive, the real memories get made during training sessions and working with the dogs. Oh I have good memories of some of the dogs that come from the trial. I hope when I'm old and my mind is gone that the last thing I remember is my first open win at herding trials with Max. I hope that I remember the mixed emotions I had when my dog ice nailed the hardest triple of his life on opening day of hunting season 2 weeks after going out of his only master national. I hope I remember the feeling I got when Barkley won his first club 10 singles trophy against AA dogs that were much better than him. I want to remember the joy I had watching Tellus jump around with that long haired golden Chief latched on to his chew can. I want to remember the pain I felt the days I had to admit it was time to put down Ice, Barkley, Buck, Charlie, Only, Smooch, Sally, Blue and Brandy. I want to remember pre-national training days. I want to remember when Connor handled Angel to her Junior title and when Cody handled Avery to his duck dog challenge win. I want to remember when Mr. Rodriquez called to tell my what a great dog Walker was how many birds he picked up for him in his first season and how he bought a brand new ford pickup for him to ride in. I want to remember sitting drinking a beer with my good buddy Bubba watching Doug Shade make a complete ass of himself for the OHRC club banquet. I want to remember flipping my good buddy Tellus the bird going down the freeway on the way to training....

I want to remember these things, not because I won a trial or got a ribbon or points, but because they were made in the course of training dogs I will love till I die and people I will always remember. I can't for the life of me figure out how any "club" with only 3 members could ever make these memories for me.....

/Paul


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> I had something all typed up in response to yours but my New Years resolution got the best of me.
> 
> ...


My point is that the CLUB had nothing to do with your memories or the good times.

It's a people thing yo!

SM


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I can't for the life of me figure out how any "club" with only 3 members could ever make these memories for me.....
> 
> /Paul


ever heard of "AN ARMY OF ONE".....;-)

Menages A Trio Regards........


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well Gutman. I think we're on the same page with this one. I very much enjoy hearing the stories about the "old" days, stuff that Richard posts, Lance and even though he hates my guts Marvin's post. I remember sitting with Mr. Bob Pepper hearing about the old days running Jiggs and listening to funny training stories. I learned long ago, that while the accomplishements are impressive, the real memories get made during training sessions and working with the dogs. Oh I have good memories of some of the dogs that come from the trial. I hope when I'm old and my mind is gone that the last thing I remember is my first open win at herding trials with Max. I hope that I remember the mixed emotions I had when my dog ice nailed the hardest triple of his life on opening day of hunting season 2 weeks after going out of his only master national. I hope I remember the feeling I got when Barkley won his first club 10 singles trophy against AA dogs that were much better than him. I want to remember the joy I had watching Tellus jump around with that long haired golden Chief latched on to his chew can. I want to remember the pain I felt the days I had to admit it was time to put down Ice, Barkley, Buck, Charlie, Only, Smooch, Sally, Blue and Brandy. I want to remember pre-national training days. I want to remember when Connor handled Angel to her Junior title and when Cody handled Avery to his duck dog challenge win. I want to remember when Mr. Rodriquez called to tell my what a great dog Walker was how many birds he picked up for him in his first season and how he bought a brand new ford pickup for him to ride in. I want to remember sitting drinking a beer with my good buddy Bubba watching Doug Shade make a complete ass of himself for the OHRC club banquet. I want to remember flipping my good buddy Tellus the bird going down the freeway on the way to training....
> 
> I want to remember these things, not because I won a trial or got a ribbon or points, but because they were made in the course of training dogs I will love till I die and people I will always remember. I can't for the life of me figure out how any "club" with only 3 members could ever make these memories for me.....
> 
> /Paul


Very poetic Paul. Remember those things and never forget them I agree something about three members in a club does not ring true. I don't have a dog in this fight since I've only been a member in a UKC hunt test club but I can tell you this we made a lot of memories together and had a lot of fun. Really none of it had to do with the test. We frankly had fun training together.

BTW how did Mr Shade make an ass of himself?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

duk4me said:


> BTW how did Mr Shade make an ass of himself?



That my friend is a long topic full of many stories that with just a little firewater could make Bubba and I go on for hours.....

/Paul


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I can't for the life of me figure out how any "club" with only 3 members could ever make these memories for me.....

/Paul[/quote]


The club with 3 members puts on the trial, hundreds of participants show up. Plenty of memories to go around.

John Lash


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

back in the last millenium,way before windows 95 the Texas tailgate party was better than most nightclubs in that same era,Cactus Pryor would serve as the unofficial entertainment and he would start with tame G rated stories of his days around Pres.LBJ and as the alcohol started to flow the stories would morph into R rated accounts of his days on the set of John Wayne movies and then eventually if there were a select few who could still hold their alcohol and keep a secret or two the talk would then go to field trial gossip( who was playing with whom and who was privately playing house with whom) you see we didnt have the internet or cell phones back then but the word would sweep quickly across different regional circuits and sometimes the info would beat you to the next trial site...

I can affectionately tell the story from just a couple of seasons ago from the author of this thread, yelling out to my brother, who had been absent from the circuit for the better part of twenty years." hey Mallari, whatever happened to that broad you used to be shacking up with "....friends like that dont come around but maybe once in a lifetime, to not only remember those old skeletons in the closet, but to bring them up after all those years....

Ah yes THESE are the good ole days.....thanks ABIII


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## Josh Conrad (Jul 3, 2005)

EdA said:


> That sounds good on paper but for those who both work and train their own dogs where is the time and incentive for a social club?
> 
> Additionally I thought that Hunt Test clubs provided the "club" atmosphere for families.


 
Ed, i would think the "incentive" would be that you could get more people involved and maybe just maybe, hand over some of the workload. 

I can tell you that by having Jeff Torrey ( a young dog pro) in our club has helped get new folks involved. He encourages his new clients to come check out our trial. He trains them at training days on what to expect when the trial comes. It is perfect, they are new folks comming into the game that want to learn. We had two of those people come help at our trial this weekend. We didn't put them in a field all day, instead, they helped with set up and took birds from the judges, things like that that wouldn't fry their brains.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> My point is that the CLUB had nothing to do with your memories or the good times.
> 
> It's a people thing yo!
> 
> SM


No chit Sherlock.

Why do you think so many folks talk about Metro?

Because it's such a well oiled machine and the personel involved is poetic?

Hell no.

They talk about it because of the parties. They talk about it because of Scott and Alice being such nice folks. They talk about it because of the setting. They talk about it because of the smile pumpkin Amy Hunt painted on that hay bale in the first series years ago.

My point is, some here think the social aspect to this whole "club" thing is useless. For the most part it may be. Mostly because I don't want to hang out with most the goof balls I see at trials anyway.

But maybe just maybe if your so called "club" is really a "club" that exists for more reasons than just holding a trial twice a year, the work you've been bitching about can be distributed between 20-50 people versus 3 people.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

ACEBLDRS said:


> Ed, i would think the "incentive" would be that you could get more people involved and maybe just maybe, hand over some of the workload.


Ain't gonna happen.

I suggested some time ago that I'd take over the NTRC but I wanted access to the kitty.

Ed quickly changed his tune and realized the stash they had socked away and didn't want me knowing about it.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Some people find it hard to be nice. Some try very hard, but they still fail at it. Some think that they do all the work, boy oh boy they will even go so far as to pour a little water on their foreheads to make it look like they are sweating. And they will be the first to stand up and say "Hey I did that, I helped, didn't you see me working my butt off?" 
It is the quiet ones that make things happen at a trial, the ones that don't require a word from anyone, the ones that don't want anyone to make a fuss over what they have done, they are the ones that put on the good trials. 
Are those the "good ole days". I don't think so, but maybe just maybe we should all be a little more quiet about what we have done, AND JUST FREAKING DO IT!!!!

Back to my little hole of lurking :-D


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I find that most often those that "Do it All" in any endeavor do it for ulterior motives .

john


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Ain't gonna happen.
> 
> I suggested some time ago that I'd take over the NTRC but I wanted access to the kitty.
> 
> Ed quickly changed his tune and realized the stash they had socked away and didn't want me knowing about it.



Hey John Fallon, You should pay particular attention to that quote above. Sort of hits home for you I bet.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

greg magee said:


> Hey John Fallon, You should pay particular attention to that quote above. Sort of hits home for you I bet.


Don't put too much stock in my quote, as there was a proposal, but the part about the kitty was only my assumption.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Ken Guthrie said:


> Don't put too much stock in my quote, as there was a proposal, but the part about the kitty was only my assumption.


John knows what I'm talking about,


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

greg magee said:


> Hey John Fallon, You should pay particular attention to that quote above. Sort of hits home for you I bet.


I hear you.
"From my cold dead hands" regards

john


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> I find that most often those that "Do it All" in any endeavor do it for ulterior motives .
> 
> john


I've read this whole thing. Guess we are some of those type people . Seems, not only do we do the work, nobody likes it that we do. And, we have ulterior motives,too. Just curious, John, what those might be. Money? Power? Fame and Respect? What? Be specific.

In all the years we have been organizing FTs, have had exactly 1 person, Erik Gawthorpe, stand up and say, why don't you let me take over some of that? Erik now is the spring chair, we are very happy and grateful that he is. Can't even tell you how much that helps. Erik and Henry Ragle also are now part of the judges committee, another big burden shared, that we previously had to do ourselves.
So far, nobody has offered to take over the Sec job for me. EE helps enormously, but I wouldn't mind letting someone else do it twice a year.

Don't think some posting on this thread will believe it, but our motives are simple; We love our dogs, we enjoy running trials with them, the work needs to get done. That's it. Really shocking to me that this is what some think of others efforts.


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## Jeff Brown (Jan 5, 2008)

Last Year I was laid up for about 2 months. A friend suggested I put together a excel spreadsheet on MH tests in the NE & MidAtalntic Quadrant of the US. So I went back and tracked every single Master Test within a 15 State area included Pass/Fail% Judges, Clubs. There was a drop off in 2008 my guess due due to Fuel, test prices, motel costs etc etc Now it will be because people are out of work and fuel is starting to climb again. The entrants are still higher than 2004 and 2005. This is only Master.

Entrants Fail Year
2257 984 2004
2444 1083 2005
2703 1229 2006 Master National Remington VA
2639 1418 2007
2471 1170 2008


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> John, what those might be. Money? Power? Fame and Respect? What? Be specific.


I don't think that there is a generic answer. Some's motives are just "better" than others


> In all the years we have been organizing FTs, have had exactly 1 person, Erik Gawthorpe, stand up and say, why don't you let me take over some of that? Erik now is the spring chair.


When one chairs a FT"Committee" for your club what do they do unilaterally without consulting the rest of the committee . Be specific.

john


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

I don't think there is a generic answer. Some things are just done unilaterally,without consulting others.


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> I've read this whole thing. Guess we are some of those type people . Seems, not only do we do the work, nobody likes it that we do. And, we have ulterior motives,too. Just curious, John, what those might be. Money? Power? Fame and Respect? What? Be specific.
> 
> In all the years we have been organizing FTs, have had exactly 1 person, Erik Gawthorpe, stand up and say, why don't you let me take over some of that? Erik now is the spring chair, we are very happy and grateful that he is. Can't even tell you how much that helps. Erik and Henry Ragle also are now part of the judges committee, another big burden shared, that we previously had to do ourselves.
> So far, nobody has offered to take over the Sec job for me. EE helps enormously, but I wouldn't mind letting someone else do it twice a year.
> ...



That last statement is what it should really be all about! Bravo!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> I don't think there is a generic answer. Some things are just done unilaterally,without consulting others.


Well then. Maybe it would be easier to say what is not done. 

The Judges would be a good place to start. 
Does the "Chair" have ths *say* with regard to Judges or is it a ''Committee'' decision? Or does your BOD get involved ? 

john


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## Jeff Brown (Jan 5, 2008)

John we have met i belive you are a member of swamp. I got away from Swamp becuase it was heading in the direction of FT I have also judged one of your HT. My figures are accurate to within 1 %. since they represent almost 1/3 of the US I will bet it is representative of the entire US including FT's. While I do not nor do I intend to compete in FT except maybe Derby. The complaint I hear more than anything else is the Judges and the disparity or Favoritism within the FT program. Dont you feel besides our economy this may also have an extreme effect?

Jeff


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Jeff Brown said:


> John we have met i belive you are a member of swamp. I got away from Swamp becuase it was heading in the direction of FT I have also judged one of your HT. My figures are accurate to within 1 %. since they represent almost 1/3 of the US I will bet it is representative of the entire US including FT's. While I do not nor do I intend to compete in FT except maybe Derby. The complaint I hear more than anything else is the Judges and the disparity or Favoritism within the FT program. Dont you feel besides our economy this may also have an extreme effect?
> 
> Jeff


With the costs in both time and money involved, one would be foolish not to "shop " for an Event that has good Judges.

The point of my post above is that I am trying to find out who in a club "normally" picks the Judges.

john


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> The point of my post above is that I am trying to find out who in a club "normally" picks the Judges.


It's different in every club.

Whoever can find someone to say yes gets the judges in my club. Thats usually me and i find it best to ask when someone calls me at 10pm needing help with an entry.

SM


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## Jeff Brown (Jan 5, 2008)

john fallon said:


> With the costs in both time and money involved, one would be foolish not to "shop " for an Event that has good Judges.
> 
> The point of my post above is that I am trying to find out who in a club "normally" picks the Judges.
> 
> john


As you well know the HT program goes thru the same thing. My spreadsheet has shown that some clubs seem to pick the tougher judges while others stay with the more lenient judges or other areas in the country such as LI and NE use the same judges becuase they cant get any to travel.


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## DMA (Jan 9, 2008)

Just a note:

As the newer generation is coming of age I beleive we will see a decline an all types of clubs, since most of these folks' life style is a online entertainment type.

As for FT's (simple fix) All new comers get a blue ribbon the first trial out, once they taste that they are addicted for life spending college funds and retirement to get the next collered ribbon.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

How about a rule change with AKC that mandates that as a condition of entry each and every handler and owner (if different) must:

1. Belong to at least one FT giving club; and

2. Work at all trials provided by that club(s) for the full duration of the trial (i.e. work 3 days at a 3 day trial).

I think that would:

Add to the available non-paid workforce, thereby reducing labor costs for clubs.

Spread the workload around, thereby easing the burden of the few who now carry the load.

Help overcome the animosity towards those owners/handlers who think somebody owes them a trial because they write checks for entries.

Perhaps discourage those absentee owners who never work, never compete, but merely add to the numbers.

As far as club members merely "wanting to enjoy the day"--BS! If its your club, you work. You can "enjoy the day" at some other club's trial. Ditto on how many days you work. Most clubs put on a spring trial and a fall trial. I find it ludicrous that a club's members cannot plan to be available and do some real work for 6 days out of an entire year. That leaves about 49 weekends for "enjoying the day".


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Picking judges is easy if you restrict your self to the criteria 1) have they ever trained their own dog?2) Have they ever qualified their own dog for either National 3) have they made their own dog an AFC or FC? 4) Are they aggogant and unpleasant to work with? 5) Have they proven themselves not to be either dishonest or political. With that in mind it takes someone who is not an internet National winner to get off their dead ass and work well in advance. The Montgomery Retriever Club Judges through 2014 that are lined up all meet the foregoing criteria.NISSAN,HAYDEN,McCREESH,HELGOTH,MAIN,SILLS,LARSEN,DALEY,WESTLAKE,MUTH, ROBBINS,SCHROEDER,WILLETT,MOREHOUSE Carol and Loren,KOMPF,KNAPP,BRAVERMAN, Rick Anderson,BAUMER,FRASER, Larry Johnson, Bart Clark,WHITELEY,GOETTL,RUFFALO,DUFFY,Rex Bell, Grayson Kelley,COUTU, Julian Lopez,Rick Mock, Wayne Stupka, John Skibber, Pete Goodale , Dave Seivert, Bob Willow. My original list was 112 names and I was asked "do you like all those". To which I replied "No, but I know that they are honest and since they meet the criteria I want them." Unfortunately we are a club that has support from outside amateurs and there are really only 4 of us that spend 4 days trying to make the contestants have a good time, and since Kippy's dad recently had a heart attack and I asked him how old his father was 70- and I am 70 then we (the one old fart) expect and get double effort from Kippy. This should placate the questioneer who asked how judges are selected-they earn the respect of fellow competitors.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> When one chairs a FT"Committee" for your club what do they do unilaterally without consulting the rest of the committee . Be specific.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really? 
Even though the AKC assigns the "Blame" when things going wrong at a FT over the entire committee and certainly not on any pro rated indivedual basis. 

john


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

"I find that most often those that "Do it All" in any endeavor do it for ulterior motives ."

John, what ulterior motives would you ascribe to Augie Belmont for all of his efforts on behalf of the retriever game? There are others whom you can tar with the same brush, but he comes to mind as the best known.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Really?
> Even though the AKC assigns the "Blame" when things going wrong at a FT over the entire committee and certainly not on any pro rated indivedual basis.
> 
> john


OK then, next time we will have a committee meeting to discuss which type port-o-potty to get. Just in case, something goes wrong there and we have to explain to AKC our decision making process.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

cakaiser said:


> OK then, next time we will have a committee meeting to discuss which type port-o-potty to get. Just in case, something goes wrong there and we have to explain to AKC our decision making process.


You keep dancing arround the question. When someone other than yourself Chairs the trial who picks the Judges ?

john


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Let's take this one step further- In 1967 the Shrewsbury RC was run by Dottie Metcalf and Phillip Greene. I had my 1st bitch-she was 2 years old and had a very serious creeping problem(FC/AFC Tigatoes Mainliner Mariah). The sanction trials at SRRC would not allow us to use them to correct a dog. Well Bob Horsman, Bob Willow, Dana Brown, Tom McDermmot, Dewitt Boice and myself said F--- it we will start our own club- then we could hold our own training trials and Sanctioned if we wanted to. Well with 6 of us starting The South Jersey Retriever Club we grew in 2 years to 108 paid members and there were at least 60 workers. We put on our 2 Sanctioned trials and the Club has been holding Liscensed trials ever since. I am very proud of this achievement. There were no pro handlers who had any of the members dogs. I don't know what the current situation is, but I have heard that the club today is a 3-4 member club with Don Driggers trying to hold it together. What has happened in 40 years? Boice, Willow, McDermott, DanaBrown(Istre), Lanse Brown, Bob Horsman are still alive and 3 of us are competing and training our dogs forAA stakes. What has happened is that the NEW OPEN owner, in many cases, doesn't care enough to learn to run a club, work a club, know how to train their own dog(I often wonder if the owner even knows what his dog looks like when it comes off the pro's truck or whether that dog represents love, desire and friendship or only a vehicle to gain ribbons and pump up their ego) What's happened? When a Derby has 27 dogs and only three are being run by 3 amateurs 24 by pros and 6 of the owners of those Derby dogs are sitting in their lawn chairs you tell me what has happened? (Atlanta RC 2007.)When Sunday morning our "little" (we have 4 members) Montgomery RC has 12 dogs back for the 3rd series of the Derby and Clint Joyner(35 years) and Lanse Brown (46years) at 8am are out throwing dead birds to help a good Judge-Tripp Smith and Keith Griffiths to have a smooth trial- after all dogs had run we only had to wait for 6 pro run dogs- what happened? It is pretty obvious that some of our newcomer owners were at church or still in bed at home, but their pro was there. I don't like to see us who are passionate and dedicated age, but it is obvious that with few exceptions there are very few new hands on owners entering the sport. Say what you will-call me a senile old crabby fart, out of touch, time has passed him by, that all may be true, but the foregoing is what has and is happening-no fantasy just factual.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> "I find that most often those that "Do it All" in any endeavor do it for ulterior motives ."
> 
> John, what ulterior motives would you ascribe to Augie Belmont for all of his efforts on behalf of the retriever game? There are others whom you can tar with the same brush, but he comes to mind as the best known.


Bob, 
This thread is waaaaaaaaaaaay past the "Good old Days'' and the "Auggie Belmonts" of the game. 
We are now talking about how it is in the 21st century and the 'Me" generation.

Day late and a $ short regards

john


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Currently, we have a husband/wife team charged with getting the judges for our 2 club's 4 trials. I'm so glad they took over this job. I did it long enough. Others did it prior to me. Any club member can add names to the list of prospects. Getting 14-16 competent people to agree to officiate at our 2 spring trials and 10 for our 2 fall trials is hard to do. We're simply glad someone is doing it--not worrying about "who" is doing it! 

Since either Dave or I have chaired all the trials for the last 2 years, I sincerely feel it is _immaterial_ who gets the judges. Being the chairperson sure isn't about "power". It's about engendering teamwork! We (the club) go over the judges for the upcoming year's trials at our annual meeting. If there is a problem, we, the board, address it there. To date there really hasn't been a problem. If someone or several someones don't live up to our expectations, we don't invite them back for a repeat performance. 

The chairman merely provides the face that others see when issues must be resolved or explained. The FTC is the group in control. Unfortunately for us, our FTC represents nearly our entire club!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I have to admit, it was a huge letdown for me when I discovered the truth in what Lanse just posted. I am only two years into the discovery of retriever training, and have not entered a trial yet. Last year I did volunteer at every opportunity so that I might learn, now I am sorry I did as the experience certainly stripped me of my rose colored glasses. I was amazed at how few owners trained and handled their own dogs, and how badly treated those few were! 

They stand waiting, knowing they are 3 dogs away from the line, their dogs are getting hyped, not to mention handler nerves, and all of a sudden they are told scheduling requires 10 pros to be slipped in between them and their turn! The first time I saw this I thought it was just a misunderstanding, but as I returned, I discovered this to be SOP. That same guy had been bagging birds, running errands, helping in many ways before his due time at the line. Sorry, that is just wrong.

That was my first disappointment, the second as several others have mentioned here, was being berated and criticized for the job I was doing. I told the committee up front I was new and would prefer to assist a marshall. Instead I was handed a clipboard and told to take numbers. I will not go into detail here, but I will not be volunteering again soon.

So I'm not just spewing sour grapes, I still have my enthusiasm. But I think the only reason I tough it out is that I am older than most beginners and am not part of the couch potato tv generation. I like to participate, not watch. And with what I have found, it is going to be a hard task to bring in the younger crowd. Why put up with that bxllsh&t?


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> Currently, we have a husband/wife team charged with getting the judges for our 2 club's 4 trials. I'm so glad they took over this job. I did it long enough. Others did it prior to me. Any club member can add names to the list of prospects. Getting 14-16 competent people to agree to officiate at our 2 spring trials and 10 for our 2 fall trials is hard to do. We're simply glad someone is doing it--not worrying about "who" is doing it!
> 
> Since either Dave or I have chaired all the trials for the last 2 years, I sincerely feel it is _immaterial_ who gets the judges. Being the chairperson sure isn't about "power". It's about engendering teamwork! We (the club) go over the judges for the upcoming year's trials at our annual meeting. If there is a problem, we, the board, addresses it there. To date there really hasn't been a problem. If someone or several someones don't live up to our expectations, we don't invite them back for a repeat performance.
> 
> The chairman merely provides the face that others see when issues must be resolved or explained. The FTC is the group in control. Unfortunately for us, our FTC represents nearly our entire club!


Thanks Vicki,
That is the kind of response I was looking for.


Now some other Clubs . Is that how you do it or do you di it another way ?

john


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

The large string pro and their clients are the new aristocracy that FT rules have allowed to be created. They may not wear the fur coats and tweed jackets of 30s and 40s but they are there for the same reasons, profit(for the pro) and entertainment(for owner). The dog is just the vehicle.

When clubs are permitted limit the kings and queens their member participation will rise. There are still people that enjoy training and handling their dog that want a competitive venue and are willing to work for it. 

We don't have a lost generation, they just don't like where we want them to come.

Tim


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## Dustin Maddux (Aug 18, 2008)

Ok, maybe my view can help out a little bit. I am part of the "couch potato tv generation" and just got my first retriever. 

I am going to run the local 4-5 trials each season. My dog is pro trained but will not be "on the truck". When I get him back I'll have to find a group of FT people to join up with and train. I am very willing to help where a newbie can and would like to learn the ropes. I am going to see about helping/watching some training and helping at the upcoming trials even though my dog is in another state. 

Here is my question....If a local FT club has zero "club atmosphere" how does a new person learn the game? How to work trials? How to take steps to learn to judge? 

These are things I thought while reading through this thread from a new blood point of view.

EDIT: I just read my post and want to be clear on something....I don't know why there is or isn't "club atmosphere" or lack of new blood. I am throwing out some questions I had being a complete newbie.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

FT club memberships continue to erode....

.....While the Master stakes at HTs continue to bloat.

Gee, if there was just someway to encourage some of those HTers to cross over and try FTs, perhaps at the Qualifying level where they are immediately competitive? Maybe they will like what they taste? Maybe they will like "winning" instead of "passing?" Maybe they will like the club and the sport and want to stick around?

Grow the FT club memberships, at no expense to the clubs and not at the swollen AA-stake level; Shrink the HT Master states. Two necessary and important things our sister sports need!

If there was just some way to encourage the cross-over. A title maybe, at the Q level? Nahhh.

Never mind me.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

So after 11 pages, what do we know to be fact?

1. Some folks don't think there is much wrong with the way things are ran today.

2. Some folks think change is needed in order for this game to thrive and keep the traditions of the past alive.

3. Some folks don't give a care because they aren't on the internet.

So what happens next?

Does this topic fade away like most do only to be brought up again the next time a person gets frustrated enough with the system?

Do we increase open entry fee's to $150?

Do we "shut up and work" in order to earn the stripes to resemble the legends the internet world has created?

Do we keep clubs a 1 man band and just be happy there is a field trial on any given weekend?

Do we try to increase the membership of existing clubs to discuss such problems and actually act on them through power of the people? Hopefully people meaning more than 3.

What's next? 10 more pages of opinions that amount to nothing?

Glad you all are in place to figure it out.

I'm gonna play dad for another half decade or so. Hopefully it's all fixed when I get back.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Dmax said:


> Ok, maybe my view can help out a little bit. I am part of the "couch potato tv generation" and just got my first retriever.
> 
> I am going to run the local 4-5 trials each season. My dog is pro trained but will not be "on the truck". When I get him back I'll have to find a group of FT people to join up with and train. I am very willing to help where a newbie can and would like to learn the ropes. I am going to see about helping/watching some training and helping at the upcoming trials even though my dog is in another state.
> 
> ...


Good post and your on the right track.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> "John, what ulterior motives would you ascribe to Augie Belmont for all of his efforts on behalf of the retriever game? There are others whom you can tar with the same brush, but he comes to mind as the best known.


From what I heard from a few old timers Bob, was that Super Chief didn't really win those Nationals. The politics of the game is what I was told. So that might be a start.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Don't believe too much of what you "hear" and only about half of what you actually "see". Isn't that how the old adage goes. At the end of the day, the dog that was pronounced the winner got the points and the blue ribbon and the title. Those who complained about it got a *label*--sour grapes.

When I started learning the retriever training/trial game, I was told to grab a sack of birds, go into the field, throw as instructed, and most importantly, WATCH THE DOGS RUN IN THE FIELD. It took a long time for me to understand the importance of watching those dogs as they ran, hunted, found and retrieved birds. It was the best thing that could have happened to me. Ditto for those at trials and new club members. You just have to do the best you can. You will learn, it just may be a more painful lesson (especially for a new marshal) than you bargained for. If it was too painful, try a different job next time. Just don't give up or you won't learn much at all.

If you are breaking in as a new marshal, it will be a good way to meet nearly everyone running, but there will be some unpleasant decisions/issues to make/deal with. If you are marshal at a minor stake, when pros and amateurs with multiple dogs get released to go run the minor, they MUST be put in the running order ASAP to get back to the major stakes. Its just the way it is done. That said, it doesn't have to be rude. If a guy is in the holding blind, you don't bump them. If a guy is just airing his dog, he'll probably get bumped--even if he's been working in the field. It's so much more than just one stake.

If you are truly wanting to learn, don't be discouraged. If you hang in there it will be worth earning the respect of older, more experienced club members. If that is what you truly want to do.

While existing club members need to remind themselves they weren't born knowing all this stuff either, newbies need to remember that many of us have seen 1-trial-wonders come and go. That's more the norm than someone who really wants to be serious about the game. We've invested lots of time and effort to try to impart what we know to them, only to have them have so many excuses why they can't show up, show up on time, and simply do their jobs that it was a wasted exercise. It's always easy to blame giving up on someone else, but the real responsibility for learning lies with YOU.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

AmiableLabs said:


> FT club memberships continue to erode....
> 
> .....While the Master stakes at HTs continue to bloat.
> 
> ...


This begs a question: how steep is the curve for a MH to run Q if the dog has historically been trained for HTs, with distances maxing about 200 yds? my guess is maybe 400 yd land marks and blinds would not be too terribly difficult to teach, but a 400+ yd water with 2 or 3 re-entries seems pretty tough unless you have worked these concepts at long distance in its training all along....so you have a bit of a hurdle to overcome there getting the HT Master level folks to cross over - that plus the attitudes at FTs mentioned above. Pro cut-ins happen in HT's as well but probably to a lesser degree.....

and what would be so terribly wrong with a Q title? that could do just what you want - shrink the MH and grow the FT with more owner-trained dogs and - if i am not wrong - a higher percentage of dogs that actually hunt each season.....


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

The only oldtimer I have heard make an allegation like that was Dr Starkloff in his book. From my perspective, the game could use more people like Augie today.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> The only oldtimer I have heard make an allegation like that was Dr Starkloff in his book. From my perspective, the game could use more people like Augie today.


I take stories I hear sitting on a tailgate when the beer is flowing with a grain of salt Bob. And Jay could spin a yarn with the best of them. Sour grapes? most likely. But where there is smoke, there is usually a little fire. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus. And it wouldn't be Mr. Belmonts fault if the powers that be wanted to throw him a bone for being so dedicated. Like I said. It was the politics of the game.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

AmiableLabs said:


> FT club memberships continue to erode....
> 
> .....While the Master stakes at HTs continue to bloat.
> 
> Gee, if there was just someway to encourage some of those HTers to cross over and try FTs, perhaps at the Qualifying level where they are immediately competitive? Maybe they will like what they taste? Maybe they will like "winning" instead of "passing?" Maybe they will like the club and the sport and want to stick around?(snip)


I think a lot of HT people are in HT's because it's where they want to be, myself included... I used to be a very competitive person and excelled at almost anything I chose to do. I'm not like that anymore as far as needing to compete and win. I love running hunt tests, I like the atmosphere. I like being able to go out with my 6-8 dogs I keep in training right now and get good work done in half a day. I don't want to take the time from my personal life that it would take to run and be competitive in trials. I don't want to be gone every single weekend... I don't want to be out in the field 9-10 hours a day... A lot of HT people just don't want to run trials, period. And they just aren't interested. 

While I know that I personally would enjoy running and open/am, I'm just not willing to give up what it takes to be competitive there. And I love running hunt tests, the people that are there and the lifestyle it allows me. I think you have to give up a LOT, more than I'm willing to give, to really be competitive in trials...

-K


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## mike hodge (Aug 31, 2003)

Vicki: I realize everyone has to start somewhere while paying dues.
But, IMO, marshalling a minor stake is NOT the best place start this process. The minor stakes may carry the least amout of weight, but they are tough to organize effectively. If multiple stakes are going on, the running order gets thrown out the window. If the marshall's a first timer, self-centered handlers can be a huge headache.
Given that, it's best let to the newbies watch a more experienced marshall deal with the sandbaggers, assorted malcontents and bullies before going solo.

Been there, done that, regards.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Kristie,

Like you, for me HTs are a better fit and for all the same reasons you stated.

But for more than a decade I have worked four FTs a year, and have met dozens of individuals who started in HTs and have made the cross over to FTs and are glad they did it.

And there are also a handful of die-hard HTers who show up at every FT just to run the Qual, knowing their Master dogs are competitive and being able to say "QAA" after MH is a little more special.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Tim Carrion said:


> *The large string pro and their clients are the new aristocracy that FT rules have allowed to be created. They may not wear the fur coats and tweed jackets of 30s and 40s but they are there for the same reasons, profit(for the pro) and entertainment(for owner). The dog is just the vehicle.*
> 
> When clubs are permitted limit the kings and queens their member participation will rise. There are still people that enjoy training and handling their dog that want a competitive venue and are willing to work for it.
> 
> ...


You hit that one on the head Tim...only now the mode of dress are either Orvis or McAlister coats, Muck boots that have never seen mud or ankle deep water,White coats that just came from the dry cleaners,and Cadillac Escalades with heated leather seats that have never been off an asphalt road


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Mike,

I don't disagree with you. I used the minor stakes as preferrable to trying to do an Amateur first time out the gate. The marshal of ANY stake will get some crap from somebody if not several somebodys before the stake is over.

Perferrably, the newcomer would be in a position of desire and health to be able to take a bag of birds into the field and throw a shift or two. They would not only get to help with the work, but actually watch how dogs approach getting to and finding a bird. That being the case, I would hope the stake marshal, judges, and coordinator (if there is a separate one) would have enough thought to put this person on a standout gun, not a retired one!

A new person could also be the line marshal: they announce the number of the dog coming to line for the judges (this is something often forgotten in todays trials, but very important), call for guns up at the appropriate time (or call for the birdboy to plant the blind if it is not marks), take birds from the judges, and assist with clean-up once the series was completed and set-up of the next one. They would be in a position to observe handlers on the line, dogs in the field, get a look at what judges may consider a "no bird", and many other things that help educate. They just wouldn't deal with the running order and conflicts.

They could also just assist the stake marshal with tracking down errant handlers, sheparding folks into the blind(s), running birds to stations, etc. That way they learn the ropes. They also get the chance to see the conflicts that arise and how they are dealt with. Sometimes its enough to know that the conflicts don't arise because its "you" - they happen to everyone.


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## mike hodge (Aug 31, 2003)

surfgeoD300 said:


> This begs a question: how steep is the curve for a MH to run Q if the dog has historically been trained for HTs, with distances maxing about 200 yds? my guess is maybe 400 yd land marks and blinds would not be too terribly difficult to teach, but a 400+ yd water with 2 or 3 re-entries seems pretty tough unless you have worked these concepts at long distance in its training all along....so you have a bit of a hurdle to overcome there getting the HT Master level folks to cross over - that plus the attitudes at FTs mentioned above. Pro cut-ins happen in HT's as well but probably to a lesser degree.....
> 
> and what would be so terribly wrong with a Q title? that could do just what you want - shrink the MH and grow the FT with more owner-trained dogs and - if i am not wrong - a higher percentage of dogs that actually hunt each season.....


David: IMO, the jump from Master to the Q is significant.

As one who committed to that transition, it's easy to take a Master-level dog and hang around for a few series in the Q. It's very difficult to take a Master-level dog and win in the Q, at least the Qs I've run.

There's a big difference in competing in the Q and winning the Q.


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Our Cimarron RC is pretty simple.

We have four to six folks that show up, work their ass off, run their dogs and go home. We pay for all the help we can afford to make things go smoothly and do not have one iota of a conscience about asking folks to pitch in and help. 

This year our club is about $2500 in the hole due to several small trials in a row and some big travel expenses. Unfortunately, the treasury resides in my banking account! (Am I eligible for a Federal bailout?)

Therefore our help this year will be those who are attending the trial. It's real simple. Come and work or we don't have a trial. 

Big pro trucks are encouraged, multiple entries are encouraged, lots of entries are encouraged. 

By the end of Sunday, we will be done and life will go on.

So ya'll come to El Reno, OK April 4-6 and bring your dogs, guns, lawn chairs and popper guns. Pros, bring your assistants. ALL will be asked to help! (we are an equal opportunity club)

It will be fun!

Oh, by the way, I still need judges. Anybody want to volunteer that lives nearby?

Yours in retrievers....

Tim West
VP, CRC


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Here is a classic example. The Willamette Club is made up of 5 or 6 people and hosts 2 FT's here in town every year. Every trial I volunteer to work.

https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewevent.aspx?eid=3071

You'll notice the huge list of people that volunteered. Interestingly I've tried to "join" the club for years, but there is nobody to give the membership and money too. Even more sad is I'm a pro with all HT and Gundog clients that enters a couple of dogs to support the club. The trial is run by the sweat of those 6 members, a few kids they hire and people in gallery willing to go out. Most of the gallery's are ghost towns.

/Paul


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Vicki Worthington said:


> Mike,
> 
> 
> Perferrably, the newcomer would be in a position of desire and health to be able to take a bag of birds into the field and throw a shift or two..


 


Shift or two = all day in either the wind blown cold or sun gleaming heat.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

Tim West said:


> Our Cimarron RC is pretty simple.
> 
> We have four to six folks that show up, work their ass off, run their dogs and go home. We pay for all the help we can afford to make things go smoothly and do not have one iota of a conscience about asking folks to pitch in and help.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a blast........

Actually, took my son to his first field trial up to Woodward.

Drove all night on Friday. Got up with the birds and let the boy step in about 47 cow pies. Was the 5th dog to run and missed the short retired by about 3 inches. Done by 9:45 am and that was only because the stake started at 9:30.

Was home by 3 pm. Just in time to sit down for dinner with the family and watch Shrek for the 239th time.

Life is good regards,


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Not too many years ago if you were interested in training a retriever the only place to go was your local Field Trial club. Whether you wanted a FC AFC or just to do something with your dog.

If you were married and had kids you brought them too. You went to the annual trial to see what it was like. If you and your wife could work that was even better. You could help an older veteran and his wife then next year if you were still around you would work on your own. There was always plenty of help.

Annual tailgate parties and worker/member dinners were easy to arrange. A very small group of people hung on and are still there, the vast majority left after a year or two.

Now it's 30 years later, Hunt tests fill the niche that field trials used to fill. If you have only a casual interest in training few go to a field trial. I think 3 to 10 member field trial clubs are very common, especially if the HT in the area are in a different club.

I don't know where new blood comes from anymore, I usually see a few new owners arriving with their Pros, some stay, some don't come back next year. Most aren't the types to show up to band birds for the trials on Thursday morning, leave late on Sunday and do everything else in between all weekend. I don't know how many Field trialers there are in the U.S. Probably a couple thousand or so.

It is a little crazy to do all the work that's required to train a dog, let alone all the work involved in a trial. I do it 'cause if I don't who will? If enough of us don't keep working, trials could easily cease to happen.

John Lash


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Tim West said:


> Our Cimarron RC is pretty simple.
> 
> We have four to six folks that show up, work their ass off, run their dogs and go home. We pay for all the help we can afford to make things go smoothly and do not have one iota of a conscience about asking folks to pitch in and help.
> 
> ...


Move the trial back to Woodward!  I've worked every single trial your club has put on that I have attended in person - even towed around an equipment trailer that wasn't mine but had to be moved.....even after getting the boot in the Qual and having to drive home.....Sorry I'm booked for 2009 judging assignments.....have one opening for 2010.....

For me I have had to learn to say "No" to helping at trials.....there is only so much abuse a person can take.....

FOM


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

I agree, Lainee. If clubs want less "absentee owners" they should not make it so difficult for the amateur to attend the trial and run. Maybe we should start everything on Saturday--Open and Amateur. That way a whole bunch more amateurs that work for a living could run their own dogs. 

I like the run over to Monday idea--only the ones in contention at the end would need a vacation day. Better odds for giving up a vacation day, I think! Especially since I work in a job that discourages using vacation at all!

Probably wouldn't change much what the pros do--they'd just take Tuesdays as their day off instead of Mondays. I don't much think it bothers them which days they trial/train/have off in the long run.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Vicki Worthington said:


> While existing club members need to remind themselves they weren't born knowing all this stuff either, newbies need to remember that many of us have seen 1-trial-wonders come and go. That's more the norm than someone who really wants to be serious about the game. We've invested lots of time and effort to try to impart what we know to them, only to have them have so many excuses why they can't show up, show up on time, and simply do their jobs that it was a wasted exercise. It's always easy to blame giving up on someone else, but the real responsibility for learning lies with YOU.


Well put, Vicki, and a view from the other side. Exactly how I feel, too. At some point in time, one gets tired of trying to help people who really don't help themselves. 

I'm sorry for all the stories on here about rude treatment of newbies. Did anyone ever think, those of us still around after many years could tell those exact same stories about when we first started? Things haven't changed there. Can remember way back when,some judge screaming insults at Dick, the first time he ever tried to throw a bird out of a boat. I can remember the first time I ever marshalled, had no clue what to do, was in tears by the end of the day. People were mean to me, sniffed out my inexperience, they were on it like a duck on a june bug.

We just kept coming back. That's the advice I would give to anyone who seriously wants to play these games. You have to have a true passion for the dogs. If you don't, all the garbage will make you quit.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I have learned the quickest way to keep people from bitching at me when I am marshalling is offer them the clip board!  And I NEVER volunteer to throw, I throw like a girl, imagine that! I'm pretty good at planting a blind though, but HATE doing that - dang flies! I do like shooting fliers though!

FOM


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Lainee, we ALWAYS appreciate the help. We'll try to get back to Woodward but it's SO hard to put on a trial there. Fabulous grounds though.

Bring your gun if you come down this spring. We'll provide the shells, a half broken chair and all the water you can drink....(I'll even throw in a beer kicker after the last dog is run)

Tim


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## Joe Brakke (Jul 3, 2008)

ACEBLDRS said:


> I can tell you that by having Jeff Torrey ( a young dog pro) in our club has helped get new folks involved. He encourages his new clients to come check out our trial. He trains them at training days on what to expect when the trial comes. It is perfect, they are new folks comming into the game that want to learn. We had two of those people come help at our trial this weekend. We didn't put them in a field all day, instead, they helped with set up and took birds from the judges, things like that that wouldn't fry their brains.


This is an interesting point you raise here. I've been watching and learning from this thread, so thanks to all that have contributed! I am one of those new gen participants that is now in charge of coordinating a test. It is hard work and requires a lot of time. I now appreciate the ones that have come before, god bless them. But the club vs. the test mechanism is a great point to ponder. Also, I do remember my first intro to a club and how intimindating was that. The point above I think blends the solution well. We need to greet the new ones as one of our own, not look down on them because the brought a check cord to the first training day. The level of knowledge that resides in a club through members is amazing but in the same light intimedating. The above pro taking the time to introduce the new ones is great idea and it does not need to be the pro, the experienced one can step up. But the above goes beyond that to "giving more than you expect to receive". The more you give the more that comes back often happens as in my case. I do believe the club needs to act more line a club which should return upon them more help and newer members. Enough said and thanks because our club needs to take on this point and continue to give more than it receives.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Tim West said:


> Lainee, we ALWAYS appreciate the help. We'll try to get back to Woodward but it's SO hard to put on a trial there. Fabulous grounds though.
> 
> Bring your gun if you come down this spring. We'll provide the shells, a half broken chair and all the water you can drink....(I'll even throw in a beer kicker after the last dog is run)
> 
> Tim


Sorry will miss you this spring....I have too many other commitments (taking a week off to pick up a new topper and judge) and not enough vacation days.....Mark will have to put some AA points on Bullet this Spring......but I will hold you to a beer at a later date!

I did enjoy the grounds at El Reno....

Lainee, Flash and Bullet


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## Steve Amrein (Jun 11, 2004)

Vicki Worthington said:


> I agree, Lainee. If clubs want less "absentee owners" they should not make it so difficult for the amateur to attend the trial and run. Maybe we should start everything on Saturday--Open and Amateur. That way a whole bunch more amateurs that work for a living could run their own dogs.
> 
> I like the run over to Monday idea--only the ones in contention at the end would need a vacation day. Better odds for giving up a vacation day, I think! Especially since I work in a job that discourages using vacation at all!
> 
> Probably wouldn't change much what the pros do--they'd just take Tuesdays as their day off instead of Mondays. I don't much think it bothers them which days they trial/train/have off in the long run.



I have tried to push the Monday thing as well but somehow tradition is standing in the way. I would rather GO OUT on Monday than Friday. 

As far as being a stake marshall one has to remember that most field trial folks are type A personalities and sometimes need a strong type A marshall. When I to started in the game I wanted to make it pleasing to all but then reality set in. Now my main concern is to keep the stake moving along smoothly and dogs in front of judges. Save the drama for the cocktail party.


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

The Clubs in our area (Midwest) that seem to have a more active membership have training grounds for members to use. I saw a big change in membership activity at events (workers for trials and hunting tests) when Blackhawk got grounds closer to LaCrosse, WI so members could go out after work and do some training. Prior to having those grounds, it was hard to attract membership as the grounds we use for AKC events are 1-2 hours away for most members. BRC does have people sign up at headquarters when they arrive to work and people have to work 24 hours a year at an AKC event for land use privileges. The worker list has never been used to disallow land use privileges, but the info is there if needed.

I doubt there is anyone who has worked a trial or hunting test who hasn't been yelled at by someone--either other club members or better yet by a participant who hasn't lifted a finger to help. yes, the participant has paid to run the event but that isn't a ticket to yell at others who are working from 5 a.m. to 10 p.m. sacking birds, marshaling, throwing, gunning, fixing food, running lunches, rebirding, chasing down sandbaggers, hanging birds to dry, etc., etc., etc. Your skin gets thicker and you have to learn to let that go over your head.

Most who attend are polite, thank goodness. And, there are the really wonderful people like Doug Mains, Matt Peters, Roger Quass, Chuck Stokes, Sheila Stokes, Lorri Oliver, John Blackbird, and many many more non club members who volunteer to help throw birds and shoot fliers and marshal.

Madison does a good job of lining up people to work. I think they run a 4-hour shift, then put in new workers. Someone at Madison puts a lot of work into lining up the workers, printing lists and rotating them into the field. Madison has grounds and folks are working to be allowed to use those grounds. Carrott and stick!


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## mike hodge (Aug 31, 2003)

Ann, Charlotte: I don't know if you all were referring to my post or not. However, I'm not naive enough to think that I'm one of the few who faced my share of jackasses early on. Many others have, too.

In my book that doesn't excuse anyone's behavior. Nor do I think that tolerating it should be held up as a badge of courage for newbies to earn.

As a sport, IMO, we need to do a better job of holding ourselves and others to a higher standard of conduct --- for newbies and for the growth of our sport, not to mention the issue of integrity.

FTs are a marvelous sport, but our level of sportsmanship/conduct needs improvement, IMO, on a lot of levels, including recruiting newbies.

There's no question that FTs take a thick skin and a high level of commitment for new folks, but we need to do a better job of reaching out and mentoring. Conduct and sportmanship are part of that equation.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

In 1966, after some enjoyable times in Butte, I left the Mining industry & began working at the Boeing Co. This is what existed on the coast around Seattle. The Puget Sound & Samish clubs were small membership operations & have always operated that way. The Tacoma & Northwest clubs were large (not so large today & generally lack those members that pitched in but didn't run dogs) with many members who were not trialers but were dog people. & there was the WA RC that was a sanctioned club but held 4 full trials, a 10 series singles & the Little National which would draw as many as 60 entries. 

The WA club was about 200 strong as evidenced by the free feed at the Bellevue Elks (closed by the feminists) but there were always problems getting the participants to carry a portion of the load. We had many a discussion on that subject at our BOD meetings. If you were on the BOD of the club you automatically chaired a trial, the Pres arranged land & other things & the VP filled in as needed. We tried to get AKC approval to hold a licensed trial but were shot down by Northwest, their concern being we would run a better trial than they did & they would have no one interested in doing the heavy lifting for them. 

The Tacoma club put on 2 informal trials, Northwest had the Bakewell (a Derby - Open event), Puget Sound had informal trials but they were hard to get to & Samish put on an informal at the Padilla Bay Gun Club (I still use the lanyard they gave me for judging their event). There was no lack of a place to run your dog without running all over the country, Only on occasion would contestants have 2 dogs & trials were not a marathon. I do remember judging an Open with 75 dogs in the mid '70's & finishing in 2 days. There was more happening in those days locally, so it was more of a social event. Local judges were used & laying an egg was always well discussed. _If someone did something out of the ordinary they knew they would have to defend that decision._Think of that when you show at a trial today out of your circuit with a known good dog. 

I don't train as hard as I used to, look for something besides going to the trial to make us want to travel, avoid trials with weak judges (someone can be a nice person & still not be a good judge, just not smart enough to turn down the assignment) & generally enjoy myself much more. Some trials are just well run so they rate high on the list, many are well run because they have logistical advantages with good membership. 

I do like the idea of a Saturday start with a Monday carryover, if necessary. I'd like to see several clubs try that as we all know not all clubs could operate even under the best of conditions. Over the years I have observed a lot of clubs & the members that drive those clubs, if they could get over their personality quirks the sport would be better served.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Tim Carrion said:


> We don't have a lost generation, they just don't like where we want them to come.
> 
> Tim


What impact has the internet; therefore, had on FT participation? 

When the information about what is (supposedly) out there becomes so readily available, it is very easy to be put off before you even start. I think one sees all the negatives and very few of the positives if you read the internet content on FT. 

So far I have met nothing but good people who love dogs and have been willing to go out of their way to help me. I haven't yet met a person who shrugged me off or put me down, or in any way took advantage of me. Heck I was introduced to this by a guy who was just trying to help me out with a dog. So far I haven't gotten into competition because I had to get a capable animal to train, so I have seen all the positive and none of the negative in person. 

But think about what one sees on the internet every day and how it might contribute to bloated MH and shrinking FT participation.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

mike hodge said:


> Ann, Charlotte: I don't know if you all were referring to my post or not. However, I'm not naive enough to think that I'm one of the few who faced my share of jackasses early on. Many others have, too.
> 
> In my book that doesn't excuse anyone's behavior. Nor do I think that tolerating it should be held up as a badge of courage for newbies to earn.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that Mike. I was really surprised to hear that it is necessary to have a tough hide in order to volunteer to help at your own expense. I'm sorry but there is no excuse for some of the behavior I have seen. Yes, I am tough enough to stick it out as far as trying to participate and play the games, but I am not stupid enough to offer myself up for insult and aggravation by volunteering for the same people again!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> What impact has the internet; therefore, had on FT participation?
> 
> When the information about what is (supposedly) out there becomes so readily available, it is very easy to be put off before you even start. I think one sees all the negatives and very few of the positives if you read the internet content on FT.
> 
> ...


That has very little to do with that, that subject has been discussed ad nauseum but has very little to do with this thread


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> What impact has the internet; therefore, had on FT participation?
> 
> When the information about what is (supposedly) out there becomes so readily available, it is very easy to be put off before you even start. I think one sees all the negatives and very few of the positives if you read the internet content on FT.
> 
> ...


The original post on this thread (& most that have followed) have been surrounding clubs that put on trials and the dynamics of attracting new members to carry the torch. As far as what you've posted-I wholeheartedly agree. I have had a great time running my dog as far as the camraderie with other handlers, enjoying the other dogs run, etc. I was told before I decided to give this a go that it was extremely competitive and unfriendly and nothing could be further from the truth. The vast majority of folks will cheer you on and compliment you when your dog does well and commiserate when you've made a mistake. Folks who have been doing this for years and have had their share of FC AFC dogs have been extremely helpful.

What got me hook, line and sinker was going to a sanctioned trial held by a club out of state that welcomed non-members. I ran my dog in the Q (we only did the land marks, but it was a very challenging setup & then moved onto HT water marks in the afternoon) under very knowledgable, friendly judges. I thought my dog did very well and they thought so too because he won! I had a blast gunning in the afternoon & I left with a membership application. Since then, I've been to several training days which have been fabulous. The members are so encouraging and they are also successful with their dogs. They've done a good job getting me hooked!

M


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Mike, Carol, I'm sorry your experience has been less than positive. No one is saying bad behavior should be tolerated/excused.
However, it exists everywhere, and FTs are certainly no exception.

Miriam, Darrin, glad you found some people who share your love of the sport, the dogs. That's the way it should be.

As for me, to this day, can still feel, why bother, who needs it, I quit. But, somehow, the dogs end up saying, let's go Mom, get the truck loaded and yourself out the door, we need some birds, get over it. 
And, as usual, I end up thinking they are right!!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

bonbonjovi said:


> That has very little to do with that, that subject has been discussed ad nauseum but has very little to do with this thread


Respectfully Bon, it has everything to do with this thread, given that without the internet, this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.

As a new guy to the game I can tell you that it is with a ton of trepidation that I prepare my dog for the eventual Qualifying bid. 100% of that trepidation comes from what I have read on the internet... not 99%... 100%...

Poorly treated volunteers, politics instead of dog work winning trials, pros running rampant on the running order, sandbaggers, the whole 9 flippin yards. The running order issues alone are enough to send me away, having seen more than one set up where the morning dogs couldn't see it and had a miserable success rate while the afternoon dogs crushed it. Those would be the chips falling where they may except that Johnny Pro was running the open and had to run later because of it, while my time that would have had an afternoon slot now has to run in poor lighting conditions and fails... 

I'll step to that line and lose time after time until I either win or give up, as long as I feel like I'm welcome to participate and things are being handled and judged fairly.

I'm NOT going to put up with too much of the other stuff however, without making a quick exit to stage left.

If it's really the rich, absentee owner's venue with championship points and stud fees to line the pillows, then I'll have a MH and take him hunting instead. At the end of the day I'm training and AWESOME animal to do some things I never thought possible. I get to see my good friends on the weekends to train, hunt and do other things, teach my son something about dedication and overall enjoy more time afield than I would without dog training in my life.

But I don't need to run a single trial to do any of that... ribbons will be the icing on the cak, if there are any.

That's my attitude and I'm quite certain the attitude of many others like me who are considering participation in FT.

And it's ALL internet based. 

I'm either a complete glutton for punishment, have very thick skin or I'm just stupid, if I read the internet as a gauge of whether or not to play.

It is only the people I've met along that way that have kept me working to get my dog to the line and find out for myself what this is really all about. 

Those people are why clubs flourished in the first place, and they are the reason clubs still exist today. 

The internet may not make up the entirety, nor even the majority of the issues at hand, but it is certainly a contributing factor. 

Since what's on the internet is primarily driven by participants in the sport, it bears point out that what you type here is what some newbie sees and possibly how they determine whether or not to ever play teh game in the first place. 

So as I sometimes say...

Be careful what you bitch for, you just might get it.


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

lanse brown said:


> Let's take this one step further- In 1967 the Shrewsbury RC was run by Dottie Metcalf and Phillip Greene. I had my 1st bitch-she was 2 years old and had a very serious creeping problem(FC/AFC Tigatoes Mainliner Mariah). The sanction trials at SRRC would not allow us to use them to correct a dog. Well Bob Horsman, Bob Willow, Dana Brown, Tom McDermmot, Dewitt Boice and myself said F--- it we will start our own club- then we could hold our own training trials and Sanctioned if we wanted to. Well with 6 of us starting The South Jersey Retriever Club we grew in 2 years to 108 paid members and there were at least 60 workers. We put on our 2 Sanctioned trials and the Club has been holding Liscensed trials ever since. I am very proud of this achievement. There were no pro handlers who had any of the members dogs. I don't know what the current situation is, but I have heard that the club today is a 3-4 member club with Don Driggers trying to hold it together. What has happened in 40 years? Boice, Willow, McDermott, DanaBrown(Istre), Lanse Brown, Bob Horsman are still alive and 3 of us are competing and training our dogs forAA stakes. What has happened is that the NEW OPEN owner, in many cases, doesn't care enough to learn to run a club, work a club, know how to train their own dog(I often wonder if the owner even knows what his dog looks like when it comes off the pro's truck or whether that dog represents love, desire and friendship or only a vehicle to gain ribbons and pump up their ego) What's happened? When a Derby has 27 dogs and only three are being run by 3 amateurs 24 by pros and 6 of the owners of those Derby dogs are sitting in their lawn chairs you tell me what has happened? (Atlanta RC 2007.)When Sunday morning our "little" (we have 4 members) Montgomery RC has 12 dogs back for the 3rd series of the Derby and Clint Joyner(35 years) and Lanse Brown (46years) at 8am are out throwing dead birds to help a good Judge-Tripp Smith and Keith Griffiths to have a smooth trial- after all dogs had run we only had to wait for 6 pro run dogs- what happened? It is pretty obvious that some of our newcomer owners were at church or still in bed at home, but their pro was there. I don't like to see us who are passionate and dedicated age, but it is obvious that with few exceptions there are very few new hands on owners entering the sport. Say what you will-call me a senile old crabby fart, out of touch, time has passed him by, that all may be true, but the foregoing is what has and is happening-no fantasy just factual.


A lot of truth in the above. A few do most the work for mostly those who do nothing. *And that is grossly inequitable*. And the amatures know it is and it pisses them off.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

HiRollerlabs said:


> The Clubs in our area (Midwest) that seem to have a more active membership have training grounds for members to use.


That would be so nice. I would join any club near me that had grounds and do whatever it took to make sure whatever the club wanted to do was successful. Alas, none of the ones near me have training grounds.


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

DoubleHaul said:


> That would be so nice. I would join any club near me that had grounds and do whatever it took to make sure whatever the club wanted to do was successful. Alas, none of the ones near me have training grounds.


That is another aspect, the lack of training grounds for the amature. It may be given the history of the last 40 years from mostly amatures to mostly pros, the large entries by mostly pros (which is not a separate issue). The sport may be radically different in the next 40 years, if it survives at all.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> Respectfully Bon, it has everything to do with this thread, given that without the internet, this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.
> 
> As a new guy to the game I can tell you that it is with a ton of trepidation that I prepare my dog for the eventual Qualifying bid. 100% of that trepidation comes from what I have read on the internet... not 99%... 100%...
> 
> ...


Darrin one of the reasons that more Hunt Test clubs are flourishing as compared to Field Trials is because of the nature of the game , not the people in it. Most of the people in the HT game either started in FT, tried FT or currently are able to run both.
the main difference was once described on this forum like this :

At a Hunt Test 65 dogs can enter and theoretically all 65 can pass

At a Field Trial 65 dogs can enter and you have one winner, a second, a third, a fourth, and possibly a few JAMS

same basic sport, different disciplines like comparing taekwon do to jui jitsu

retriever people make the game, they enhance the experience. the internet can be a good place for information but can be a brutal place to learn about retriever games. the newer breed of retriever owner as yourself uses the internet for communication and information, more than half of the old field trialers I know cant even access their email or dont have an email.

the game is evolving the newer custodians of the game such as yourself has access to information at the blink of an eye, but as someone reminded me the other day, there is no such title as an IFC (internet field champion). Dont let what you read and hear on the internet sway you from trying either discipline...Both styles are addicting ...all of us being on here discussing it is proof of that...good luck with your dog


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

bonbonjovi said:


> there is no such title as an IFC (internet field champion).


There may not be, but I have won five nationals in a row on EA Sports, Lardy Field Trial 2008. Would have been six but my finger slipped on the XBox controller and I picked up a poison bird.


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

bonbonjovi said:


> Most of the people in the HT game either started in FT, tried FT or currently are able to run both.


Um... i don't think so scooter. Try again.

SM


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

DoubleHaul said:


> There may not be, but I have won five nationals in a row on EA Sports, Lardy Field Trial 2008. Would have been six but my finger slipped on the XBox controller and I picked up a poison bird.


Thats funny stuff there....but you just know Shayne is on the phone with Lardy and EA sports trying to get the option rights to the video game as we speak..


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

John, what did the oldtimers from Swamp teach you about judge selection and such topics? I'm sure you picked up something form Kathlene frederick, Polly Roosevelt, Steve Gardner and Armin Frank when you started in the game.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Um... i don't think so scooter. Try again.
> 
> SM


ok you win...


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## Clark (Aug 10, 2008)

I have to agree with Darrin. While my experience with field trial folks is very limited, it is also very positive....Bon was especially helpful.

But coming from a somewhat young perspective (still barely hanging on to my twenties), I get on here and read so many bad things concerning field trials.

I am going to run some hunt test with my pup, but I don't think that is where I really want to be. The competition of the trials is what really interests me, but then you get on here and other sites and it seems that the only thing anyone agrees on is that noone agrees on anything. Sites like this are where your up and coming handler/owners get their info. Read some threads on here and you can see why alot of younger folks wouldn't consider playing this game.

Half the threads on here are about how to fix this issue or that issue, or who's skirting the rules here or there, blah, blah, blah....And I think to myself "is this really something you want to get into?"

I do...but I can see why others my age wouldn't


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## mike hodge (Aug 31, 2003)

Charlotte: I agree the boorish behavior will never go away. It's human nature.

That's why I'd rather deal with dogs rather than certain handlers


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

DoubleHaul said:


> That would be so nice. I would join any club near me that had grounds and do whatever it took to make sure whatever the club wanted to do was successful. Alas, none of the ones near me have training grounds.


If a club can show a bank that it has ability to repay a loan, the club can get a loan and buy some land of its own. Blackhawk (LaCrosse, WI) has borrowed from a bank and so has Watopa (Weaver Bottoms, MN), and both clubs paid the loans in full in advance.

If you are a member of a club, look at starting a pledge drive to collect funds to buy land, get a bank loan, do something to get land so you have something to offer. Once you get the land, you'll start to attract people who have other things/talents to offer like backhoes and pond designing skills and dog training skills. Someone has to get the ball rolling.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Partnerships with the state F&G people and other authorities are not uncommon in our area. they are not easy to pull together but we have two clubs here that have done deals to make training land available to their members.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Um... i don't think so scooter. Try again.
> 
> SM


Nice....

John Lash


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## Clark (Aug 10, 2008)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Um... i don't think so scooter. Try again.
> 
> SM



You may not see it yet..but I think some HT'ers will make the transition by way of the SRS within a few years. Assuming the SRS remains somewhat popular....


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## IA Hunter (May 1, 2006)

I have not read all the posts, but I know that a young guy like myself in my 20's the resources required to be competitive in field trials is a little hard to come by. I have ran trials had fun, but it takes alot of time, money, knowledge, and ground, mostly water for me. To be competitive and I am very limited on all of these so I will run some more hunt tests because I can experience a little more success and still learn. I will run trials if they are close to home, but have a hard time devoting alot of time to a sport that I am always donating my $ to with limited success at this point in my life and live in an area that I have to compete with Eckett, George, Blythe, Dewey, and several others. It is fun and they are all great guys, but man they are good! I love trials because of the quality dog work, but as a young guy to realistically win is a longshot which is part of the lure to.


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

Never going to happen, SRS has very few events. To be able to the win big money you have to go to all the test and they are held in different place/states each time. SRS was just canceled the Souther Cal because it couldn't secure a sponsor.


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

IA Hunter said:


> I have not read all the posts, but I know that a young guy like myself in my 20's the resources required to be competitive in field trials is a little hard to come by. I have ran trials had fun, but it takes alot of time, money, knowledge, and ground, mostly water for me. To be competitive and I am very limited on all of these so I will run some more hunt tests because I can experience a little more success and still learn. I will run trials if they are close to home, but have a hard time devoting alot of time to a sport that I am always donating my $ to with limited success at this point in my life and live in an area that I have to compete with Eckett, George, Blythe, Dewey, and several others. It is fun and they are all great guys, but man they are good! I love trials because of the quality dog work, but as a young guy to realistically win is a longshot which is part of the lure to.


You need to trade Eckett and George some good duck hunting in Iowa for some training.

Both those guys are a sucker for a greenhead.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

I would say the multitude of reasons for the decline are quite apparent.

Time: people seem to have less.

Money: Everything cost more.

Training grounds: Nuf said.

"Social dynamics" [many offshoots, from club, event to interpersonal interaction/dynamics] 10,00 word essay needed here!

Competing interest: Lots more available today.

Difficulty: Not the easiest retriever game.

Difficulty in the ability to work with a "mentor": Many reasons. I've had clients interested in FT but can't get in a training group.


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## Clark (Aug 10, 2008)

Maverick said:


> Never going to happen, SRS has very few events. To be able to the win big money you have to go to all the test and they are held in different place/states each time. SRS was just canceled the Souther Cal because it couldn't secure a sponsor.



Maybe I should have been more clear...Hunt test folks that watch,not compete, in the SRS will migrate toward FT once they get bored with with the hunt tests. I've never titled a dog, but I would think going to a Master Hunt test would get a little boring after awhile once your dog has the title...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> Um... i don't think so scooter. Try again.
> 
> SM


 
Ya, I think scooter's been hanging with Michael Phelps....

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Clark said:


> Maybe I should have been more clear...Hunt test folks that watch,not compete, in the SRS will migrate toward FT once they get bored with with the hunt tests. I've never titled a dog, but I would think going to a Master Hunt test would get a little boring after awhile once your dog has the title...


 
Passing never gets boring. Besides, all the politics, bickering, bitching about judges, and mocking lesser handlers while stealing bubba's beer keeps it highly entertaining. Heck, sometimes I don't even take dogs....

/Paul


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ya, I think scooter's been hanging with Michael Phelps....
> 
> /Paul


I doubt scooter lost his Kellogg's sponsorship tho.

SM


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Shayne Mehringer said:


> I doubt scooter lost his Kellogg's sponsorship tho.
> 
> SM


Yep no more wheaties for him. Somebody should tell Kellogg that gutman is available.....

/Paul


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Maverick said:


> Never going to happen, SRS has very few events. To be able to the win big money you have to go to all the test and they are held in different place/states each time. SRS was just canceled the Souther Cal because it couldn't secure a sponsor.


_Wait_ a minute.......all that TV time/hype/big-time-dog-work and no one's will pony up to have their name associated with it? .................

It's a sign of the Apocalypse regards,

kg


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> John, what did the oldtimers from Swamp teach you about judge selection and such topics? I'm sure you picked up something form Kathlene frederick, Polly Roosevelt, Steve Gardner and Armin Frank when you started in the game.


Again Bob, 
"This thread is waaaaaaaaaaaay past the 'Good old Days' '' 

Back in those days those members that you mentioned and others that you did not left the running of the club to Hank and Clint who took turns at being Pres. and VP. I was Sec /Treasure for a while along with being Sec and Game Steward at the trials.

I was a young kid at the time and, as you can imagine, was in awe of the magnificent surroundings.

I got to rub elbows and "hobnob" with the creme De la creme...... but was never consulted about the Judges selection;-)

BTW Bob, I don't remember ever calling Mrs Roosevelt "Polly"

john


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2003)

bonbonjovi said:


> I'm a Cowboy, on a steel horse I ride, and I'm wanted dead or alive


and then said 



bonbonjovi said:


> Whoa, we're half way there, whoa living on a prayer, take my hand, we'll make it I swear, whoa living on a prayer


It's Friday and I'm killing time before going to see a band


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

As if I hadnt heard those before...Funny...one of my favorite bands


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Yep no more wheaties for him. Somebody should tell Kellogg that gutman is available.....
> 
> /Paul


Would his picture fit on the box?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Would his picture fit on the box?


It would when your pouring the ceral in the bowl......


/Paul


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## Ken Guthrie (Oct 1, 2003)

New Years Resolutions regards,

Gut


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Ken Guthrie said:


> New Years Resolutions regards,
> 
> Gut


My New Year's Resolution was to get my AKC FT Judge's test done before I'm in trouble with Linda Patterson. I just finished it tonight and it's heading off to Tonya in tomorrow's mail.

Happy New Year to the Guthrie family.

Chris


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## HiRollerlabs (Jun 11, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> Partnerships with the state F&G people and other authorities are not uncommon in our area. they are not easy to pull together but we have two clubs here that have done deals to make training land available to their members.


Partnerships with state/federal groups are great. However, they seem to be dependent on who is in charge at the time. Watopa (Weaver Bottoms, MN) used to have permission to use Whitewater State Park. That ended when local Federal leadership changed. More recently they were able to use McCarthy Wildlife area (under DNR). We used it for the last time in fall 2008--local DNR leadership changed. The Club has 40 acres (land with technical water) of its own and a clubhouse area. It leases a very nice cow pasture with a swamp and a huge pond, and hopes to lease more acres for 2009 trials.

Watopa is looking to BUY more land so it doesn't have to rely on state/federal gov't land and leases. I urge all clubs that have a little money and can provide financial stmts to the bank that show a history of profit and ability to pay, start a land fund drive--go and find some land that will hold water, get a loan, and preserve the sport.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Maybe looking where we've come from hinders looking where we are going. HPW


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## lanse brown (Apr 22, 2004)

Bob- Armin Frank- who is still kicking owned AFC Andy Black of Chestnut Hill and was the only amateur that I can remember who other than Clint Swingle was in the SDRC at the time I ran and judged there. Hank was a dilettante and we often held our trials on Morie and Marion Stroud's property. (They were the parents of Marion Bolton Stroud Swingle.)- Who incidently is today the greatest supporter of the PRTA. Steve Gardner was COE of Girard Trust and gunned. Kathleen Fredricks was Fred Astair's sister in law(she ran dogs and used Jay Sweezy), Polly Roosevelt was an attractive lady who had gone to finishing school (Miss Porters) with Louise Vietor Belmont-Louise ran dogs and Polly watched. The work was done by Clint and Armin-at the time Clint was a pretty good dog man. Many a night I caught the red eye from O'Hare to Newark with Mariah and Jill only to be accompanied by Clint and Pearl(National Derby Champ and after being sold to David Crow popped her way into a NFC) The dinners and cocktails at Morie&Marion's were always cordial and well presented. I don't recall meeting the bird steward, but there was never a problem and we used to shoot a minimum of 1 pheasant and 1 duck, so he must have done a good job.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

lanse brown;397151...................... I don't recall meeting the bird steward said:


> We used a lot of birds back then when compared to the events of today and ordering the mandated 2.5 per entered AA dog was not uncommon.
> 
> In those days we *never* used any birds that were not shot *that *day. Each stake would start off in the morning with the Guns shooting more than a few to get started . At days end they all left with me to be disposed of.
> 
> ...


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

The bird steward back in the "dark ages" for most of the PENDELMAR was Carlton Sylvester.

Lanse, another piece of worthless trivia.

Tim


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Clark said:


> Maybe I should have been more clear...Hunt test folks that watch,not compete, in the SRS will migrate toward FT once they get bored with with the hunt tests. I've never titled a dog, but I would think going to a Master Hunt test would get a little boring after awhile once your dog has the title...


Every test is different and you run into different people at different events. And if you get bored watching/running the upper levels, you can always go to the starter/junior events and see the new handlers freak out.


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