# "Cat Dogs" Killed by Wolves (graphic pictures) WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC PHOTOS



## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

*"Cat Dogs" Killed by Wolves (graphic pictures) WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC PHOTOS*

Just what we need ---- More Wolves ...
I just got this email and pics from a friend of mine. The story is a bit long, but it sets the stage for the pics.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have not posted anything about lion hunting for awhile. I just finished my first semester of college at the University of Montana where I am studying wildlife biology. I got home for winter break and have been able to get out quite a bit lately. My friends and I have treed several lions and we have taken two.

Yesterday my friend and mentor Mel invited me to go with him and another fellow named Jay who has two young dogs and a tag for our area. At about 6am we headed up into the Yaak area of northwest Montana. At about 2pm Jay found a track so he turned out his two dogs (Top & Lilly) and I also turned out my two (Elvis & Earl). They took off through the woods but they lost the track where the cat had crossed the Yaak River and had then doubled back across again. Mel and Jay walked downstream to gather dogs and look for the track while I was searching the far bank. We eventually lined out the track and put the dogs back on it. It was tough going so Mel put in his two good dogs (Brody & Fancy). The cat had made a third river crossing and the dogs were now on a fairly fresh trail. Since part of our plan was to get Jay’s dogs Top and Lilly some experience we grabbed Earl and Fancy and put them back in the rig. 
At this point we had four dogs heading up over the mountain. We drove about 2 miles up a nearby road to try and close some of the distance. We finally got bogged down in very heavy snow and the Garmin Astro collars were saying that the dogs were still about a mile above us and that they were treeing. We headed up on snowshoes but the going was VERY difficult due to deep snow and thick alder brush. It took about 90 minutes to hike to where the dogs were supposed to be. 
As we were hiking we saw on the receiver that Jays dog Lilly was running. Since she is young he just thought that she was running a back trail. As we continued to get closer we could still not hear the dogs. At about 500 yards the astro showed that the dogs were still treeing but since we could not hear anything we became concerned that the system was not working right. As we got close we had to get out our lights as the sun had set and we could no longer see. We hiked on and soon the screen showed that the dogs should be right in front of us at about 50 yards. Eerily there was absolutely no sound in the woods. We found the tree surrounded by tracks where they had put up the lion. We immediately began calling out for the dogs. Jay saw some blood by the tree and we assumed that a dog must have cut a pad. 
Jay started shining his light down the hill and saw two eyes shining about 30 yards away. He started that direction and seconds later we heard him start yelling. Mel and I ran down to where he was and saw something no houndsman ever wants to see. There in the snow surrounded by blood were two dead dogs. 
I instantly thought that one of them was my good dog Elvis. My heart was pounding as I got closer. When we got to them we had to check the collar since part of his head was gone. We ultimately discovered that it was Mel’s dog Brody and Jays dog Top. I could not find Elvis anywhere. I could only imagine that the same thing had happened to him and that he was lying in the brush nearby. 
As we tried to get over the shock of it all we slowly pieced together what had happened. It became very apparent that a pack of wolves had attacked our hounds as they were baying at the tree. Brody and Top had been killed instantly at the tree and then drug about 30 yards away where the wolves had started to feed on them. The eyes Jay had seen were those of a wolf eating our dogs. 
Lilly had obviously run away when the attack occurred but there was still no sign of Elvis.
We were all sick about what had just happened but we needed to get down the mountain and try and find Lilly and hopefully Elvis. It was as tough going down as it had been climbing up, and when I broke a strap on my snowshoe I didn’t think things could get any worse. 
I have hunted these mountains many times but I have never experienced fear like I did on that hike. The thought of the wolves behind us, the dogs that had just been killed and of the two that we could not find were about all I could handle. With broken snowshoes I had to “posthole” most of the way back to the truck. 
We finally got back to the trucks and our missing dogs were not there. Before we got out of that deep snow we had to winch ourselves out about five times. It was getting very late and I was both mentally and physically exhausted by the time we got back to the paved road. 
We were due for some good luck and right then the collars for Lilly and Elvis lit up the screen and appeared to be about 1 mile ahead of us on the main road. As we got close I could see Lilly by the guardrail so I jumped out to grab her and began yelling for Elvis. 
I immediately heard barking down below us by the river. I jumped the railing and began calling to him. With my flashlight I could see Elvis and he appeared to be lying in the ice on the bank. As I got closer I realized that he was actually in the water and was too exhausted to pull himself up on to the edge of the ice. I was able to reach out to him and pull him to safety. I don’t know how long he had been there but he was shaking so bad I did not know if he would survive. We warmed him up in the truck as we headed for home which was still an hour away on icy roads.

As I write this, Elvis is still so stiff and sore that he can hardly walk but since he is not yet 3 years old he is plenty strong and will be back on the trail soon. I have no idea how he was able to escape the wolf attack and near freezing to death in a river. All I know is that I am very fortunate to have gotten him back.
I have not talked to Jay yet this morning but he had put so much time and energy into training Top I can only imagine how crushed he is. I talked to Mel and he is very frustrated, not just because he lost a great dog but also because he called a local game biologist who told him that our dogs were killed not 500 yards from a known denning site. According to the biologist they don’t publicize information like that because people might disrupt the wolves. 

R..I.P. Brody and Top, I hope the hunting is good up there in heaven. 































.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

OMG!!!!!!!!! That is a HORRIBLE STORY.......
The pictures of those killed dogs, are going to give me nightmares..... 
So sorry for the loss of those dogs- But I tell you, if it happened to me, you'd never catch me out doing that again with any dogs... Very sad....


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## waterdogutah (Jan 20, 2010)

That's something we don't like to hear about. Sorry for your loss.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

waterdogutah said:


> That's something we don't like to hear about. Sorry for your loss.


I just got this email and pics from a friend of mine.



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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

The risk is higher due to the fact that Montana lion season is open during the wolf breeding season when wolves are most aggressive.

I would tell them to get a ballistic vest and a two inch spiked collar if they plan to keep hunting lions.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Something like this.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

And the top reasons for re-introducing them are :
(In addition to "biological diversity")
1. Killing sheep
2. Killing cows
3. Killing deer
4. Killing (and virtually ruining what was once Prime Elk hunting country)
5. Killing Moose
6. Killing dogs 
(I haven't yet heard about any horses being killed)

Next on the list is going to be a human



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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Man that is tough. Nothing worse than losing hounds. Been there....

/Paul


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## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

Doc E, were up the Yaak were they at? PM if you would. We camp along the Yaak river a couple of times most summers. I have a bunch of Family in the Bonners Ferry and libby area. We used to deer hunt up there. Looks like I might have to go wolf hunting this year up there. I remember about 10 years ago Fish and game saying that there were no wolves in the Libby area; my uncle has pictures of them dating back to 1986 and he lives along the river between the idaho line and troy. What a sad story.


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Oh Wow!!! I can't imagine. I can't begin to tell you how much more relaxing it is to air dogs and go camping when you are NOT in wolf country. I have changed much of what I do with dogs in the woods in Montana as the wolves have become more populated over the past several years. i would never be able to work with hounds, I would be devastated if I saw that.

I hope those dogs didn't suffer.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

Last year I tried to post a couple of photos of dogs killed by wolfs in Wisconsin but was not allowed to do so.

The photos of the dogs killed in Wisconsin were even more disturbing and shocking than these. I was outraged about the killing of the dogs just 50 miles from me. 

After the RTF moderator explained my photos were inappropriate for RTF, I also reconsidered whether it was appropriate to be outraged when a bear hound was stripped bare of all but his skeleton and head by a wolf attack.

We hunt creatures with dogs to kill those creatures. Creatures hunt our dogs to kill them. If a wolf gets to a dog and kills it before we get to it, some will say that is nature's (or God's) way.

After more than 30 years roaming some of the wildest parts of Wisconsin with my dogs, I ponder whether I all my walks with my dogs should be done while armed with the highest powered gun I can tote. It is unlikely I could save a dog that encountered a wolf pack but I might do some damage to the pack. 

But the question would be: who has rights to the woods: the wolfs or my dogs? Does God give dogs rights over wolfs or vice versa? 

Yes, trying to stir the pot here because most of us love our dogs. Does the love of our dogs give them certain rights over wolfs? If domestic dogs encounter wild wolfs, whom does God favor?

Just a philosophical question on a snowy winter night.

J. Marti


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

i have a question if you had got there sooner and killed a wolf or two would you have been in trouble?


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)




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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Doc E said:


> ....a local game biologist who told him that our dogs were killed not 500 yards from a known denning site. According to the biologist they don’t publicize information like that because people might disrupt the wolves.
> 
> .


 
I'm kind of surprised by this.I know the Wisconsin DNR and some other wolf sites try to get info out there so this doesn't happen.There are areas that they recommend that hunters shouldn't run their hounds to try to help prevent encounters like this.I'm surprised Montana wouldn't do something similar.There are packs by our cabin in Washburn County and bear hunters run hounds around us.It has happened in Wisconsin too.
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/er/mammals/wolf/wolf_map.htm


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> But the question would be: who has rights to the woods: the wolfs or my dogs? Does God give dogs rights over wolfs or vice versa?
> 
> Yes, trying to stir the pot here because most of us love our dogs. Does the love of our dogs give them certain rights over wolfs? If domestic dogs encounter wild wolfs, whom does God favor?
> 
> Just a philosophical question on a snowy winter night.


Well your kinda right you know
when people hunt bear ,cats, hogs whatever with their dogs,,sometimes the critter gets the best of them and you kinda have to accept that. It could be why houndsman keep so many dogs ,,I dont know.

When people share space with wild carnivours things like this are not uncommon.
Live stock and pets fall prey often to wild creatures .
This story is sad , but I thought this was a common occurance and risk that houndsman new about.

Pete


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Mr Glass said:


> Doc E, were up the Yaak were they at? PM if you would. We camp along the Yaak river a couple of times most summers. I have a bunch of Family in the Bonners Ferry and libby area. We used to deer hunt up there. Looks like I might have to go wolf hunting this year up there. I remember about 10 years ago Fish and game saying that there were no wolves in the Libby area; my uncle has pictures of them dating back to 1986 and he lives along the river between the idaho line and troy. What a sad story.


This incident happened off of the Spread Creek Rd in the Yaak drainage, Montana.
That's as close as I can find out.



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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

bluto562004 said:


> i have a question if you had got there sooner and killed a wolf or two would you have been in trouble?


Most people here in the Inland PacNW would adhere to the 3 S's
(Shoot, shovel and Shut Up).



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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I would have to go on a 3 S hunt if that happened to any of my dogs!!


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Pete said:


> When people share space with wild carnivours things like this are not uncommon.
> Live stock and pets fall prey often to wild creatures .
> 
> 
> Pete


And I'm sure that the wolves voted "Yes" when they were asked
if they wanted to be RE-introduced.



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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

How can you be a hunter and not have love and respect for nature and the creature's that inhabit it? How can you blame the wolf for this attack?


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

My husband's Northwoods Sporting Journal, January 2010, www.sportingjournal.com..."Mystery Prediator Killing Beagles...that are bring used to hunt rabbits..

There is a cluster of GPS locations where 13 beagles have been killed and buired...during a period of 4 years. 

In addition...in Kingsbury Plantation area..long time beagle person, Maine Guiide ..etc..lost hs Nat'l Field Trial Champion..radio collar indicated she was no longer moving..he found her dead buried in a trackless pile of snow..per the article. Head, radio collar and one forleg was all that was left. 

He has stopped hunting the area (after about 15 years of doing so)in '07. Lost 7 more beagles in the same way. All killed, mostly eaten and remains buried or "carefully cached.." He recovered remains due to their tracking collars. In one hunt lost 3 dogs in one day and two in a morning. 

This hunter says the animal is capable of carrying off a 30 lb dog, ingesting half in less than three hours. 

Some think it is either a bobcat or a coyote..but coyotes are not thought to cache their food.. via their radio collars. 

Autopsy indicated heavy bruising on head & neck..incisor marks appear to be from carrying dead dog to cache location. ..large feline, but incisor spacing indicates bobcat, as the spacing is too small for cougar. This owner, though..thinks it is a big cat of some kind and "has not ruled out a lion"..

As of this publication...20 dogs missing, 17 found with help of collars killed in the area (Kingsbury alone). 

The area is now deamed unsafe for rabbit hounds. Publication is meant among other things..prevent more rabbit hunters from having dogs killed, ..etc and that cat hunters may want to check out two specifc areas in Kingsbury Plantation. "Situation severe"..one bobcat or several, one cougar or several. 

Other beagle losses Downeast (ME) "attributed to "coyotes"..

I copied some of the above from the article..but there is a lot more. Suppose to be follow up, updates in the future on the subject. 

I am so sorry for the loss of your hunting partner's wonderful dogs..and equally relieved to read that Lilly and Elvis were found alive. Elvis just in time, it sounds..


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> How can you be a hunter and not have love and respect for nature and the creature's that inhabit it? How can you blame the wolf for this attack?


I blame the PETA type folks and AR people for seeing to it that they were RE-introduced in the name of biological diversity, and are seeing to it that most states won't allow legal wolf hunting.
Ask people who Elk Hunt in Idaho how many of the prime herds have been decimated since the RE-introduction of wolves.



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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> How can you be a hunter and not have love and respect for nature and the creature's that inhabit it? How can you blame the wolf for this attack?


Thank you for reinforcing my certainty that you are an asshat. I was beginning to wonder.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

THere is no wrong or right...it is what it is...wilderness situation...
Wolves are very territorial right now - breeding season is getting close..the wolves probably heard the hounds baying and felt they were threatening their territory....wolves don't know that dogs aren't supposed to be food, or that they are not enemies....

A wolf killing a dog, in a situation like this (wilderness situation) is not the same as a wolf entering suburbia and killing a dog on a chain or that has been let loose outside...'suburban' wolves (and any other large 'suburban' wild animal is) are more dangerous because they are not afraid to come in close contact with humanity, who they are generally fearful of...

I am very sorry to see the loss of these hounds...but is it any different than losing a hound to a cat, bear, or a hog, during the course of a hunt?

Juli


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Doc E said:


> I blame the PETA type folks and AR people for seeing to it that they were RE-introduced in the name of biological diversity, and are seeing to it that most states won't allow legal wolf hunting.


Thank you for posting this thread. As disturbing as it is, it is just as important.

You are correct to say "AR-type" people are responsible, but in fact it is not the AR people. It is primarily the environmentalists, allies of the animal rights whack-0s.

Environmentalists who do not let farmers irrigate their crops because of a little fish, or home owners to shore up their property because of a beetle. Environmentalists who do not want us to drill for oil, harvest coal, or build nuclear power plants. Environmentalists who said global warming was causing a hole in the ozone layer, and now that the hole is closing are warning the healing will cause more global warming.

If those were my hounds I'd be right back there with a semi-auto rifle and a boombox playing a recording of baying hounds.

Keep your mitts off my dogs regards,


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Judy Chute said:


> My husband's Northwoods Sporting Journal, January 2010, www.sportingjournal.com..."Mystery Prediator Killing Beagles...that are bring used to hunt rabbits..
> 
> There is a cluster of GPS locations where 13 beagles have been killed and buired...during a period of 4 years.
> 
> ...


Both Cats and Bears will cache food. Wolves do not. I recently read that the CAT is one of the only animals that will not share their food, unlike bears and wolves who ultimately tolerate birds and other smaller creatures too feed on their kill (once they are full of course)


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

kindakinky said:


> Last year I tried to post a couple of photos of dogs killed by wolfs in Wisconsin but was not allowed to do so.
> 
> The photos of the dogs killed in Wisconsin were even more disturbing and shocking than these. I was outraged about the killing of the dogs just 50 miles from me.
> 
> ...


J. Marti,

Your post is still there on purgatory. I was just looking at it.

Unlike Doc E's, your post had a subject line that indicated it was unsuitable for children. Unlike Doc E's post, yours had no true detail indicating that there was any connection between a gundog's outdoor pursuits and being attacked/killed by a predator during that outing.

Yours was a shredded/mauled/dog carcass, with virtually no text to tie the images to subject matter that connected it with RTF's users...again, showing the warning in the subject line that was graphic and unsuitable for children.

Given the context, I completely support the moderator's decision to remove that post/thread from the board.

Chris


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

I have several friends who were bear hunting just north of Park Falls WI and they had 3 dogs killed by wolves. Ended up heading home because they didn't want to lose any more dogs to the wolves. These guys spend alot of time training hounds just like we do our dogs and are not going to put them in with the wolves again. Very delicate situation politically but I don't blame the wolves sounds like we need a season on them to control the numbers so they don't have to eat our dogs to survive!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I have seen the effects of wolves vs the elk population, its not a pretty sight...unfortunately there are lawmakers in DC and lobbyists who have never stepped in the wild making decisions for states...I am in favor of hunting the wolves in larger numbers, but I am also in favor of leaving it to individual states to set their own guidelines and quotas....the locals know their own backyard better than you and I do...


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

When we visited Idaho last spring we stopped in Idaho City during a "mini" snow storm, and ducked into the local watering hole to get out of the cold. I noticed that nearly every vehicle displayed a bumper sticker protesting the reintroduction and the subsequent shrinkage of the elk population. The conversation inside was largely about the same subject. Were the people of the state totally unaware this was being proposed, or was it passed in spite of them?

I do not know enough about it to have an opinion as to whether it was right or wrong to bring the wolves back in. But I do know that if you expose your dogs to hunting wild beasts, you must expect other wild beasts to take advantage.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Kris Hunt said:


> Both Cats and Bears will cache food. Wolves do not. I recently read that the CAT is one of the only animals that will not share their food, unlike bears and wolves who ultimately tolerate birds and other smaller creatures too feed on their kill (once they are full of course)


Evidently, coyotes do not cache their food, either.. is the thought. So, they are questioning the reasoning that coyotes are suspect in the beagle killings. I find it hard to believe it is bobcat that are killing the beagles...given the size of both. A lynx??...is certainly larger and that would make more sense. We have few lynx here, though...and that may be the reason they are not mentioned as suspects. Trying to protect them..

Whatever is causing the problem will, most likely, be discovered at some point. Kind of sad, as the creature is not aware that the beagles are cherished by humans. Dogs are out there in a very wild environment..and must be close to a den. 

The coyotes up there ...another story. They have been for years..walking across peoples decks, running up/down driveways to catch housecats etc that are right there on their own doorstep.. Not that they are not wildlife, deserve respect as such, but they seem to adjust very, very well to living among us...and easy food source (our animals, that are usually very well fed..high quality food???  Just too close for comfort or safety, really. 

May have posted before..but some farm fields that we use for training up there (close to the area of the beagle situation) have several hundred acres which includes timber as well. The owner was mowing fields on a tractor a short time ago and happen to look behind him ..and there were several coyotes scooting around behind grabbing up mice, moles or whatever else was exposed as the cover was cut. Surprised him that they would come out so close to a human and equipment. Now a person has permission to trap. This guy has trapped 8 coyotes since December 1st per note from the farm owner just a few days ago. You know that is just a drop in the bucket and most likely the coyotes will produce more to make up for the losses, as long as the food source is good. Kind of a no win situation? 

Another guy up there was telling Bob and I that his very young Lab was mauled in his own yard as he was let out, as usual, to "go". Dog often goes down in back ..and there are apple trees, berry bushes etc.. Thinks it was a bear that was feeding and dog happened upon him. Luckily, the dog came limping to the house, covered in dirt and injured. Said he had really been knocked around. Vet stitched etc. If they have a whole day of hunting together, the dog comes up limping on the one badly injured leg for a day or two.. Dog is only around 3 or 4?? ..young. That area is really prime for Black Bears and other wildlife. 

If a (probable) wolf sighting or droppings etc is found...either the animal was most likely released by a human that had them in captivity, or is passing through from Canada..is the thought. Wonder if it would be better to have (wild) wolves in the area vs the coyote issue that we have. Just thinking about it and wondering....so don't everyone get upset with me, pleeeezz! You just wonder about the balance of wildlife..coyotes are almost like weeds in a vegie garden  now. Multiply to high numbers vs wolves? 
.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Hi
That is just awful, sorry for the loss of those hounds.I don't know if spiked collar and armour vests would stop a wolf attack. I would try the collar and vest if I wanted to keep hunting cats in the wolf areas.

Is there a way to put some type of big guard type dogs in the pack with the hounds chasing the cats?I don't know if that would stop a wolf. 

Regards
Jeff
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


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## theeaterofshades (May 19, 2008)

Chad Baker said:


> I have several friends who were bear hunting just north of Park Falls WI and they had 3 dogs killed by wolves. Ended up heading home because they didn't want to lose any more dogs to the wolves. These guys spend alot of time training hounds just like we do our dogs and are not going to put them in with the wolves again. Very delicate situation politically but I don't blame the wolves sounds like we need a season on them to control the numbers so they don't have to eat our dogs to survive!


Not surprising as the WI DNR has no real pack management strategy, and the Do-gooders have repeatedly prevented their removal from the Endangered Species List. 

There have been wolves seen around Oshkosh, WI but the DNR's Map only shows them in the northern part... But these are the same people who have severely screwed up our deer (Overestimation of numbers) and bear (Under estimation of numbers) populations through faulty assumptions, so why should we ever believe them. The thing that makes me the most upset is the the Elk re-introduced in the Chequamegon National Forest have not been able to really gain a foothold to to Wolf and Bear predation. 24 introduced in 1995 today the DNR believes there are 142 but only have radio collars 73, so who knows the real number. So using 142 subtract out the original 25, the heard has only increased by 117 Elk in 15 years at an average increase of 7.8 per year, which seems low to me (and considering that the DNR numbers are probably generous)


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Judy Chute said:


> . I find it hard to believe it is bobcat that are killing the beagles...given the size of both. A lynx??...is certainly larger and that would make more sense. We have few lynx here, though...and that may be the reason they are not mentioned as suspects. Trying to protect them..
> 
> .


a lynx is entirely plausible....they will take on an adult fox w/out hesitation. 

Lynx are so reclusive, I'd be surprised if they ever had an accurate count of how many there were in the area....


Juli


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> How can you be a hunter and not have love and respect for nature and the creature's that inhabit it? How can you blame the wolf for this attack?


They are Re Introduced Wolf - That have no Business being Reintroduced into the system. Our ancestors wiped them out for a Good Reason. 

Do you think the Elk and the deer would like to live with out being ripped to shreds ALIVE ? When a hunter shoots them with a Well Placed bullet they have no clue what happened. There are LIMITS made to persevere the Elk and Deer. The Wolf is wiping out the Elk herds , they do not obey the game laws. The wolf will continue to increase in numbers. When is enough enough? 

Why are song birds and game birds disappearing ? I have USFW facts about what Hawks and Owls kill a day. The article by Mark Almond and published in the Racing Pigeon Digest est. 4,000,000 birds A DAY in NA. being killed. When is enough enough. 

We have enough predators in PA wiping out game and the Game Com. release Fisher . What is wrong with these people? Why would you release something that dose not belong here any more? 

My self - I would rather see the Deer the Elk the Game birds ,song birds than a bunch of out of control predators running around.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> Something like this.


After seeing the original post, please put this on your dogs!! It can only help!!

Thanks Pack, I have to agree on this one! Our hunting dogs need whatever we can do to help.

I wish I did not open this thread, but it opens the eyes of the ignorant!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I live in the midst of wolf packs, though I have only ever seen one wolf in my entire life here and I'm out alot. I've walked into several bears, had a buck charge me during the rut, coyotes are all around the house at all hours and have had a shadow hover while I was walking a pair of pups in the driveway to look up and see an eagle way too close. I don't go out unarmed, nor do I let my dogs roam unattended or train alone in places I know there are wolves. They can be managed like anything else without being exterminated. Turning hounds loose to hunt incurs a high risk of attack by multiple animals, including the ones they hunt. This passionate hatred of wolves is similar to the hatred many have for pitbulls and there simply is no way to rationally discuss either, like politics and religion, emotion overrules all. The WI DNR kindly supplies info of pack territory, denning sites and dog predation sites, just to keep us on our toes. http://wiatri.net/website/AtriDemo/viewer.htm http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/er/mammals/wolf/wolf_map.htm


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Kim..that is a great site that you posted. Very interesting.. 

"Bobcats normally weigh 15 to 50 pounds, and lynx weigh 15 to 30 pounds (the thick fur of lynx makes them look heavier, but large adult male bobcats achieve greater weights than male lynx). " 

Given that information (vs what I found here in Maine)..maybe it is bobcat(s) that have killed so many of the beagles used for hunting rabbit here. 

Never did look at the pictures posted with this thread..  ..just could not.


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Doc E said:


> I blame the PETA type folks and AR people for seeing to it that they were RE-introduced in the name of biological diversity, and are seeing to it that most states won't allow legal wolf hunting.
> Ask people who Elk Hunt in Idaho how many of the prime herds have been decimated since the RE-introduction of wolves.
> 
> 
> ...


I happen to be one of those Elk hunters from Idaho! I no longer elk hunt. There is not much point and I am not afraid to work for it by any means. I just used to be able to go out and "horn" hunt and always got a nice animal. My family has always used the meat and everything possible from the kill. This last year I saw less animals than ever. I can no longer go for a nice day hike into the backcountry to fly-fish and take my Lab without packing a fair sized personal fire-arm for fear of wolves. We had them in our camp this year too. Although afraid they are not stupid and definitely know how to find whats easiest for them. And yes I have a central region Wolf tag bought over the counter that I do think I will have the opportunity to fill. Among with Elk, Deer, Moose and even the grouse I love to hunt are quickly dwindling. I think wolves have a right to co-habitate within our areas just as all else does but they need to be hunted and their numbers kept in check!!!!!! plain and simple if you think its a good thing to have wolves, remember that there is such a thing as to much of a good thing in all aspects of life!


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I happen to be one of those Elk hunters from Idaho! I no longer elk hunt. There is not much point and I am not afraid to work for it by any means. I just used to be able to go out and "horn" hunt and always got a nice animal. My family has always used the meat and everything possible from the kill. This last year I saw less animals than ever. I can no longer go for a nice day hike into the backcountry to fly-fish and take my Lab without packing a fair sized personal fire-arm for fear of wolves. We had them in our camp this year too. Although afraid they are not stupid and definitely know how to find whats easiest for them. And yes I have a central region Wolf tag bought over the counter that I do think I will have the opportunity to fill. Among with Elk, Deer, Moose and even the grouse I love to hunt are quickly dwindling. I think wolves have a right to co-habitate within our areas just as all else does but they need to be hunted and their numbers kept in check!!!!!! plain and simple if you think its a good thing to have wolves, remember that there is such a thing as to much of a good thing in all aspects of life!


That seems to be the general concenses.
Also Carol
The people didnt lobby to put them here,,, washington and their do gooders did. somebody probably filled their pockets.

Quick fix in policy: Turn loose a couple of packs in Central Park.

Pete


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## Micah Duffy (Jan 21, 2010)

Something else I failed to mention. Quite a number of people that are complaining about the wolf population in Idaho are Hunters. Most of them in rural areas. A lot of them rely on the meat gained from hunting animals such as Elk and Deer as a primary source of red meat for their families. Most of them are not completely opposed to wolves being in the area. Just the fact that until recent they have been allowed to overpopulate without hunting them and are wiping out most of the animals lower on the food chain very quickly.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> How can you blame the wolf for this attack?


Because :

The original wolves there were the Native Gray Wolves ---- NOT the "re-introduced" Canadian/Alaskan Wolves that are there now. What few Native Gray Wolves were in the wild at the time of the "re-introduction" have all been killed off by the "re-introduced" Canadian/Alaskan variety.
These Canadian/Alaskan Wolves are 30 - 40 lbs heavier than the Native Gray Wolf, and are made for bringing down LARGE game such as Elk and Moose.
The Gray Wolf mainly feeds on smaller animals (rabbits, deer fawns, Elk calves etc) and unless something is weird, they are very afraid of humans and "pack" dogs.
The "re-introduced" Wolves have little or no fear of anything.



.


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## torg (Feb 21, 2005)

James Seibel said:


> They are Re Introduced Wolf - That have no Business being Reintroduced into the system. Our ancestors wiped them out for a Good Reason.
> 
> Do you think the Elk and the deer would like to live with out being ripped to shreds ALIVE ? When a hunter shoots them with a Well Placed bullet they have no clue what happened. There are LIMITS made to persevere the Elk and Deer. The Wolf is wiping out the Elk herds , they do not obey the game laws. The wolf will continue to increase in numbers. When is enough enough?
> 
> ...


Maybe the songbirds are disappearing because people allow their domestic cats to roam outside killing game birds and song birds. Lets establish leash laws for cats and leave the owls, hawks, and eagles alone.
We live in Northern Minnesota, LOTS OF WOLVES. We don't need to wipe them out but it is time to have them listed as a game animal with a regulated hunting season. 
Gary Clancy, sports writer for Minnesota Outdoor News, wrote a story a few weeks ago about his springer and pointer being chased and almost killed by a pair of wolves only 10 miles from our home. Coming within 10 ft. of Gary and firing a shot over the one wolves head, it held it's ground, determined to have his springer for lunch, until his pointer body slammed the wolf and it ran into the woods. He stated this was his third encounter with wolves. 
If we had a hunting season, the wolves would regain their fear of man and the sound of guns. Wolves should not be eliminated but controlled and a hunting season is the best way to do this.
I hunted many years alone and with friends running behind bear and raccoon hounds in the UP of Michigan in the late "70's". The raccoon hunting was always during the night and usually all night. I can not imagine doing that by myself today. I have heard the bawling of a hound is like a diner bell for a pack of wolves. I remember when they released the first wolves. They were struggling staying a live with mange and getting hit by cars or mistakenly shot as coyotes. But they did prosper and now they need to be controlled.


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## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

Hunters such as myself are not the only ones complaining about wolves. The public in general, hikers, campers, RANCHERS, farmers, etc. 

To add to what DOC E said. Although some of the wolves that wandered into Glacier were from sothern Canada; the majority of them were caught and transfered from Northwestern territores to yellowstone and central ID. The wolves from northren Canada are still the grey wolf but are hardier then the wolves of the same species from southren Canada. The Northren wolves survived in a harsher enviroment then what they see down here in the states. Up there they would go weeks without food and have to chase down there game further distances then here just to eat. When they introduced them down here they didn't take the into consideration, add that to the fact that elk, deer, etc have not had a preditor of their caliber for over 75 years. Everything is easy food for them right now for the most part. Elk in the greater yellowstone area are adapting to them and are starting to make a comeback. The area around McCall, id didn't have a good population of wolves until about 5 years ago, the elk up there have yet to adapt to them. That is just my interpitation of what was told to us while at a meeting with Fish and Game in McCall 2 years ago. Also, they haven't had any reason to rear man or anything associated with us until last year. I think in due time they will be put in check like the grizz that roam outside of Glacier park. They hear man they usally go running, unless you surprise him or they are just grumpy that day. Just my $.02.


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## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

Forgot to add.....The number of wolves the Fish and Game give out is an estimate!!!!! There are more wolves then what they say there are. They are now in places that they didn't think they were until someone reports problems with them. The area between Libby, MT and Kalispell, MT is a perfact example. Until 3 years ago, the F&G said there were no wolves in that area. About a week after that annoucment the F&G office there was flooded with pics and proof that there was. A year later they conducted a study and were surprised by what they found. WOLVES...they don't know the number of wolves in that area and still to a point deney that there is any in there.


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## Joe Dutro (Nov 20, 2007)

Wolves have made their way into Colorado also. I've hunted in the northern part for 25+ years now. I can remember in the past guides would say that there were a few but I nevere saw or heard them. Last year I didn't go but my father did. On the next to the last night there he heard a wolf howling. So their range is increasing.
Joe


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Unfortunately the wolves have been romanticized by the tree huggers and until they endanger people or god forbid kids...the forces that be will pass it off as being alarmists.When I started thinking that wolves were in the same area that I was bowhunting elk I got that eerie feeling and the hunt stopped being fun..the thing is that wolves are nomads and will follow food sources aka deer and elk migration. if you live/train/hunt in areas that have wolves you are being foolish if you arent armed when you are out in the wild..

and whoever suggested the razor collar, those are the kind that are found on fighting dogs similar to the razor spurs that rooster wear in the bloody cockfights


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## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

For those interested in learning or reading more about wolves, I read a book recently that was by far the best book I've read in many years.

http://www.yellowstoneassociation.org/store/productList.aspx?categoryId=69&o=30&cp=4

link to the book above. The title is "Decade of the Wolf: Returning the Wild to Yellowstone" written by Douglas W Smith and Gary Ferguson.

Written by people who have been studying the wolves from the beginning. Good Info

Kris


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I am so sorry for the loss of two fine hounds...that's every houndsman's worst nightmare. 

When I lived in northern WI, there was a substantial wolf population in the area. I'm so glad I'm far enough south of there now that it isn't an issue. 

When I'd hunt or guide other grouse hunters, we used tracking collars but never, ever beeper collars. The wolves know the sound of the beeper, and it draws them in to the dogs. I also made a point of keeping the dogs in closer than I'd prefer, so I'd be close enough to intervene if needed. While I never had a dog attacked by wolves, I did fire a warning shot at one I saw stalking my Brittany. 

Some of the bear hunters will shoot the wolves on sight....unless they see a radio collar. In one area northwest of where I used to live, a group of bear hunters shot 28 wolves one season....and the DNR didn't even notice the population change. I'd bet their population estimates are off by 75%, if not more.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> and whoever suggested the razor collar, those are the kind that are found on fighting dogs similar to the razor spurs that rooster wear in the bloody cockfights


That is not a razor collar. Those are spikes and it's what they recommend for lion tracking, along with a bell and a ballistic vest.

They also recommend you use a large pack of dogs, and that you keep the dogs at a reasonable distance from the handler at all times. 

Wolves are also known to track and stalk cats. This is a risk you choose to take. 

Wolves were removed from the endangered species list on May 4, 2009. Idaho Fish and Game has taken over management under 2008 state law, the 2002 wolf management plan and the 2008 Wolf Population Management Plan. 

Wolves will be managed as big game animals, similar to black bears and mountain lions. Hunting seasons will be set by the Idaho Fish and Game Commission.


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## Christa McCoy (Jan 29, 2010)

Thats so sad! I would be absolutly heart broken! I live in north central WA and if there are that many wolves there, I know they are here too. I have lived here all of my life and haven't seen them, but I know people who have heard them. We know all about the predators getting out of control here. Locals have even seen lions hunting together and if thats not outside the norm I don't know what is. The people in Seattle need to stop making our hunting laws here, but I don't see it changing. I make sure to watch my dogs and kids very closely when we are out and about. I won't even let the kids walk behind us a few steps when we hike because the cats have gotten so bad here. I take the front, we put the kids and dogs in the middle, and my husband usually brings up the rear. Oh ya, and we always pack a good gun or two!


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Desire Dogs said:


> Wolves have made their way into Colorado also.
> 
> Joe


Here's an article from just a week ago :

Idaho Wolves Create Havoc with Elk

Fish and Game commissioner: Wolves hurt elk numbers
By John Bulger, Idaho State Journal, February 5, 2010 [here]
POCATELLO — The Idaho Fish and Game commissioner for the Southeast Region said Idaho’s burgeoning wolf population has adversely affected elk numbers and impacted revenue received from out-of-state hunters.
Pocatellan Randy Budge, speaking at the Rotary club Thursday, walked the crowd through the history of wolf reintroduction in the Northern Rockies and related data regarding predation, some of which brought gasps from the audience.
Budge noted the initial goals of reintroduction were 10 breeding pairs and 100 wolves in Idaho. Wolf populations have grown at 20-25 percent a year and now number approximately 85 packs, with 1,000 wolves, which he indicated to be a conservative estimate.
“Wolves have been very productive,” Budge said.
The 2009 delisting of wolves in Montana and Idaho under the Endangered Species Act allowed the states to open hunting, but Budge said the current numbers culled by hunters and federal controls are unlikely to keep wolf numbers in check. And Budge said the numbers are creating a problem for other animals the state is obliged to protect, preserve and manage.
“From a wildlife perspective, there’s no question that this growing wolf population has had a devastating impact on our elk populations and our moose populations,” he said. “Our scientists’ and biologists’ studies on all these collared packs indicate that each wolf eats an average of 16 elk per year, so if you do the math and are being conservative, our 1,000 wolves are eating 16,000 elk per year.”
He said 295 sheep, 76 cattle and 14 dogs were also confirmed to have been killed by wolves in 2009.
Budge said the state’s biggest and historically most stable elk herd in the Lolo Pass area has gone from 11,000-13,000 elk to under 2,000 since wolves began to inhabit the area.
“Put wolves into the equation, it tipped the balance,” he said.
This impact resonates beyond Idaho’s borders, according to Budge.
“Our out-of-state hunting numbers were down 25 percent in 2008, 31 percent in 2009,” he said.
Fish and Game polled previous visitors to the state to find out if the economy was the culprit or if it was some other reason.
“The No. 1 reason listed for not coming to Idaho was, ‘You haven’t taken care of your wolves and your wild animal populations are down,’” Budge recounted, “and the No. 2 reason was, ‘Your license fees are unfair.”
The second problem stemmed from a license fee increase by the 2009 Legislature that affected only out-of-state licenses. The plan to increase revenue actually resulted in a decrease in revenue, he said.
Looking to the future, Budge said current litigation regarding wolves may ultimately be disheartening for those hoping to retain state management rights.
“I think there’s a pretty good chance we’re going to see a ruling in the next few months that may find further flaws with the delisting, and we may be turning it back over to the federal government,” he said. “My fear is if the plaintiffs succeed in getting the wolves back on the Endangered Species list, we’re going to see a relatively high level of intolerance from Idaho sportsmen who will then begin to ignore the law and have a ‘hunting season’ anyway, just an illegal one rather than a legal one.”
In closing, Budge said the recovery of wolves “should have been hailed as one of the greatest success stories that ever existed under the Endangered Species Act, but instead we’re mired with controversy and conflict and a lot of stress and strife over who has responsibility and control, the state or the federal government.” 



.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

PackLeader said:


> Wolves were removed from the endangered species list on May 4, 2009. Idaho Fish and Game has taken over management under 2008 state law, the 2002 wolf management plan and the 2008 Wolf Population Management Plan.
> 
> Wolves will be managed as big game animals, similar to black bears and mountain lions. Hunting seasons will be set by the Idaho Fish and Game Commission.


Important to note that not everywhere are wolves delisted from the Endangered Species List. Gray wolves were put back on the Endangered Species List for the Upper Great Lakes Region in July of 2009, shortly after the Delisting in May. So people need to check the most current laws for their area before they start blasting away and getting in trouble. In some areas, the SSS rules are still prudent.

"*ATTENTION: Gray wolves are once again a federally protected species.* The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has agreed to reinstate federal protection of wolves in the upper Great Lakes region. All restrictions and requirements in place under the Endangered Species Act prior to the delisting are thus reinstated. This means that landowners are no longer permitted to shoot wolves. However, Wildlife Services can give advice and assist landowners who are experiencing problem wolves. Reimbursement for wolf loses are available, and USDA-Wildlife Services will be available to investigate depredations (1-800-228-1368 in N WI & 1-800-433-0663 in S & C. WI). Wildlife Services can give advice and assist in non lethal means to discourage wolves, as well as lethal removal of problem wolves. See Questions and Answers from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service... (exit DNR)

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has reached a settlement agreement with plaintiffs in a lawsuit challenging the Service’s 2009 rule removing Endangered Species Act protections for gray wolves in the Western Great Lakes. Under the terms of the agreement, which must still be approved by the court, the Service will provide an additional opportunity for public comment on the rule to ensure compliance with the Administrative Procedures Act. 

Gray wolves in the Western Great Lakes area have exceeded recovery goals and continue to thrive under state management. However, the Service agrees with plaintiffs that additional public review and comment was required under federal law prior to making that final decision.

Upon acceptance of this agreement by the court, and while the Service gathers additional public comment, gray wolves in the Western Great Lakes area will again be protected under the Endangered Species Act. All restrictions and requirements in place under the Act prior to the delisting will be reinstated. In Minnesota, gray wolves will be considered threatened; elsewhere in the region, gray wolves will be designated as endangered. The Service will continue to work with states and tribes to address wolf management issues while Western Great Lakes gray wolves remain under the protection of the Act."


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## Shelby (Jul 20, 2009)

torg said:


> Maybe the songbirds are disappearing because people allow their domestic cats to roam outside killing game birds and song birds. Lets establish leash laws for cats and leave the owls, hawks, and eagles alone.
> We live in Northern Minnesota, LOTS OF WOLVES. We don't need to wipe them out but it is time to have them listed as a game animal with a regulated hunting season.
> Gary Clancy, sports writer for Minnesota Outdoor News, wrote a story a few weeks ago about his springer and pointer being chased and almost killed by a pair of wolves only 10 miles from our home. Coming within 10 ft. of Gary and firing a shot over the one wolves head, it held it's ground, determined to have his springer for lunch, until his pointer body slammed the wolf and it ran into the woods. He stated this was his third encounter with wolves.
> If we had a hunting season, the wolves would regain their fear of man and the sound of guns. Wolves should not be eliminated but controlled and a hunting season is the best way to do this.
> I hunted many years alone and with friends running behind bear and raccoon hounds in the UP of Michigan in the late "70's". The raccoon hunting was always during the night and usually all night. I can not imagine doing that by myself today. I have heard the bawling of a hound is like a diner bell for a pack of wolves. I remember when they released the first wolves. They were struggling staying a live with mange and getting hit by cars or mistakenly shot as coyotes. But they did prosper and now they need to be controlled.




Heck we wiped them out once for a reason. The only way to keep wild animals, wild is to keep shooting.........

I have read reports stating that an elk herd needs 30% of its calvs to maintain a herd.... We now see herds with less than 5%


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

The wolf population needs to be handled locally. Where I deer hunt near Ely Minnesota they are definitely not endangered. We had 12 to 15 guys in deer camp for a season that lasted 16 days. We shot 1 deer. I did see 4 fawns on an evening hunt. The next morning when I went back the clear cut was full of wolf tracks and I could hear the wolves running the deer. Of the hunters in camp 4 saw wolves. They were thick. The moose population is really suffering, and the DNR seems to be baffled by what's causing it... HELLO!!! We also have started hearing a lot of stories about grouse hunters losing dogs.

I have been told by several different Native Americans, that live on a couple of different reservations, that the locals have started taking matters into their own hands, and the way they are doing it is much worse then shooting them; which isn't really effective. What they are doing is taking 1/8 inch steel cable with a large treble hook on the end of it, and hanging it in a tree about 6 or 7 feet off the ground. They are baiting it with either meat or a sponge soaked in blood. The wolves jump up and grab it, and hang there until they die. That would give you an idea of how much contempt some of the locals have for the wolves. That seems to be what they consider the most effective way to deal with them, and they are miles away when it happens. I can't imagine what kind of death that has to be, and I would just give up hunting before I would do that to any animal. 

Some areas just have to many wolves, and DNR needs to have the authority and the will to deal with them. If they don't some yahoo will, and they will do it in a way that's the most effective, and they have the least chance of getting caught doing.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Leddyman said:


> Thank you for reinforcing my certainty that you are an asshat. I was beginning to wonder.


Come on man...you've been around RTF long enough to know that this puts me, the moderators, and RTF in a dicey spot.

We can't have personally attacking stuff going on.

I sure don't agree with all that PL writes, but let's cool the stuff that strays from "The Golden Rule"...please. 

OK? thanks, Chris


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Wolves don't kill and eat bear or lion or bird dogs to survive.  They mostly kill dogs because it's a territorial thing. (and because they can).

Nature is nature, and it often isn't pretty. The strongest and smartest survive, and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is being told that, even though well armed I am stronger than wolves that I still don't have the right to defend myself or what is mine by shooting a wolf (because man is smart enough to invent weapons...that covers the smart and strong parts). 

When city folks move into a rural area, they have some interesting misconceptions about how nature works. I like to call it the Disney Syndrome.

"Oh, how can you shoot Bambi? The deer are so beautiful!" ....until Bambi and his friends start eating their expensive landscaping. Then Bambi needs to die.

"Wolves/cougars/bears are afraid of people...they won't hurt me." Ummm, no....their reaction depends on 1.) how hungry they are at the moment and 2.) they size you up and decide whether you're a valid target that they can take down fairly easily, or else go on and find something smaller to eat. If they're really hungry and you're handy and they figure they can catch you, you're no different to them than a deer/sheep/elk, etc.

"Wolves are wonderful, magical, mystical animals"....until a wolf (or coyote) picks off FiFi in their back yard. And even then, I'd hear "It must have just been a coyote/wolf that went bad....they aren't all like that". 

Sigh.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> Wolves don't kill and eat bear or lion or bird dogs to survive.  They mostly kill dogs because it's a territorial thing. (and because they can).


I have seen tracks in the snow (when we were trapping) of a wolf pack that harrassed a sow bear and her cub (brown bear).... they 'dogged' these bears for quite a while and finally gave up...but you could see the story in the tracks - a few times the bear stood her ground and there was a lot of scuffling in the area...

I think a wolf pack would be able take on a young bear and kill it quite readily....a moose is certainly nearly as dangerous to the health of a wolf as a bear is...

Juli


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## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

Sharon Potter said:


> Wolves don't kill and eat bear or lion or bird dogs to survive.  They mostly kill dogs because it's a territorial thing. (and because they can).
> I admit that wolves are something special, however have you ever seen the Gray Wolves we have here in the west? If you were to put the wolves that are in the mid west next to the western hybrid from northern Canada you can tell a big difference. For one as stated before they are heavier and they are way more aggressive. Scared of people, I know from personal experience that they are not. For a great example go to this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k35v2VBT7w.
> Evey one has a right to their opinion, however, the western wolves are way different then the wolves in the mid west. They will kill anything they can, bears, moose, elk, deer, dogs, people, etc...... Before passing judgment on us westerners people needto see what the wolves here do.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID1CNsdw4NA&feature=fvw


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

What is this a great example off?

I watched the video titled *Idaho Hunters Prevail After Being Attacked By Wolves*

I didn't see anyone attacked by a wolf? Not passing judgment just stating the facts.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Juli H said:


> I have seen tracks in the snow (when we were trapping) of a wolf pack that harrassed a sow bear and her cub (brown bear).... they 'dogged' these bears for quite a while and finally gave up...but you could see the story in the tracks - a few times the bear stood her ground and there was a lot of scuffling in the area...
> 
> I think a wolf pack would be able take on a young bear and kill it quite readily....a moose is certainly nearly as dangerous to the health of a wolf as a bear is...
> 
> Juli


Point taken, Juli....I guess I should have been more clear. When hunting dogs invade wolf territory, the wolves are usually defending their territory, not looking for a meal. A pack of wolves is a powerful thing.


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## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

The title doesn't do it justice, but the point is that wolves are not afraid of people here. They really don't have anything to fear until this past year when the season opened up on them. This past year in the Bab marshal wilderness my cousin and I were elk hunting and had a pack of 8 wolves trail us while we were headed back to the truck. About 3 miles. When we go to the truck they just spread out behind us and watched us load up. the whole time they were howling and would get about 40 yards from us then turn and fade back to about 75 yards. According to the biologist we reported it to they were trying to break us apart, they thought that two of us was to much for them to handle. Maybe i'm just a weenie but that was scary enough that next time I Shoot, shovel, and shut up! We will never know for sure if the wolves were protecting territory or just looking for food. It is a risk we have here. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID1CNsdw4NA&feature=fvw Grizzly ran off by wolves


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

My dad trapped on a tributary to the Kuskokwim river thoughout the late 1930's to the late 1940's. It was fairly common for him to be followed by wolves. He said he seldom saw them but heard them and saw their tracks in the snow where they'd follow him. He trapped a few every year. He said he never was to concerned about them attacking him they always ran when he saw them close.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Doc E said:


> Most people here in the Inland PacNW would adhere to the 3 S's
> (Shoot, shovel and Shut Up).
> 
> 
> ...


I was told that exact quote by a WA fish & game biologist I met while Mule Deer hunting in Eastern WA When I lived in WA state. They do not want the wolves...


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Howard N said:


> My dad trapped on a tributary to the Kuskokwim river thoughout the late 1930's to the late 1940's. It was fairly common for him to be followed by wolves. He said he seldom saw them but heard them and saw their tracks in the snow where they'd follow him. He trapped a few every year. He said he never was to concerned about them attacking him they always ran when he saw them close.


Exactly wolves follow other predators. It doesn't take long for them to learn that humans can lead to gut piles and food. This is exactly how they believe the domesticated dog came to be.

I have no doubt that if a pack of wolves intended on eating you then you surly wouldn't make it back to the truck.

Can they screw up a hunt? You bet they can! I think that is were most issues arise.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Can anyone show a news clipping of a wolf attack on a person.
I never heard of one happening.
Also that video was about as fake looking as dolly pardons hardware

Pete


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Pete said:


> Can anyone show a news clipping of a wolf attack on a person.
> I never heard of one happening.
> Also that video was about as fake looking as dolly pardons hardware
> 
> Pete


Still questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenton_Joel_Carnegie_wolf_attack


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks Howard

From the sounds of it its quite uncommon.

Landfills seem to be the stimulous,,,free food and human desensitizing.
Animals that have been shot at usually learn to scatter when they see us comming.

Pete


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

huntinman said:


> I was told that exact quote by a WA fish & game biologist I met while Mule Deer hunting in Eastern WA When I lived in WA state. They do not want the wolves...


I don't want bugs, bees, or ticks. Surfers don't want sharks, gellyfish, or stingrays.

How do we make everyone happy?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

We lived in Icy Bay logging camp when this attack occurred.(read below) My sons played with both of these boys (were the same ages) on a daily basis.....Thankfully my sons were in the trailer with me doing their home school work..... The wolf was indeed very healthy...he had been collared near Cordova by ADF&G.....that means he traveled across a HUGE glacier, and the Copper River (200-300 miles, I would guess), to get to Icy Bay.... He was called in and shot by the father of the boy that escaped ...He was not starving, I saw his body...I had the opportunity to shoot this wolf on a trapping excursion, but I didn't because I was not sure if it was hunting season (it was)....That collar kept me from pulling the trigger...LOL....I actually believe he was stalking us as we checked our beaver traps....we had all four of our kids with us, scattered along the edge of a beaver pond, playing and having a good time in the spring weather....

oh, and when you talk about being the slower one left behind..this was the case with Johnny...He was about 70 lb overweight...

Icy Bay, Alaska - Six-year-old John Stenglein and a nine-year-old friend were playing outside his family's trailer at a logging camp when a wild wolf came out of the woods towards the boys. The boys ran and the wolf attacked young Stenglein from the back, biting him on the back and buttocks. Adults, hearing the boy's screams, came and chased the wolf away. The wolf returned a few moments later and was shot. According to Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) officials, the wolf was a healthy wild wolf that apparently attacked without provocation. The boy was flown to Yakutat and recieved stitches there for his wounds. Later, however, the bites became infected and the boy had to be hospitalized. (Reports and _Interviews on file and available upon request.)_


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## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> Exactly wolves follow other predators. It doesn't take long for them to learn that humans can lead to gut piles and food. This is exactly how they believe the domesticated dog came to be.
> 
> I have no doubt that if a pack of wolves intended on eating you then you surly wouldn't make it back to the truck.
> 
> Can they screw up a hunt? You bet they can! I think that is were most issues arise.


You do have a point there. It sure was creepy though. I'm not worried about them screwing up a hunt so much as them driving me off my kill! They are neat to watch while they are hunting. It is bad enough that you have to worry about grizzlies but now wolves. Grizzlies we learned to handle, there is only one of them usally, but wolves are a different story. I guess time will tell what is going to happen with it all.


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## kindakinky (Dec 11, 2008)

I totally supported not posting my photos as well. I was in total shock as to these photos because I have hunted that area for nearly 30 years. 

I was in such shock to these photos, I reacted emotionally. The photos just scared and shocked and chilled me to the soul.

I wasn't criticizing you for not posting the photos. I was trying to illustrate how shocked about the results if our dogs tangled with a wolf or coyote. I have dogs who have been nearly killed by a porcupine. If we are in the world of hunting, our dogs may be at risk because there are other critters trying to make their way in the world.

My point wasn't about the moderators decision not to post my pictures, but about how when we venture into the wild, there are other critters there who are trying to live in the wild also.

I probably am not a good person to be on your forum. While I own guns and kill birds with guns, then eat the birds I kill, I also love the critters that populate the areas I hunt.

Sometimes I react emotionally.

I just read your response now. I will destroy my account now.

Wishing everyone the deep peace I have always experienced in the woods with my dogs. In the end, do what you love. 

J. Marti



Chris Atkinson said:


> J. Marti,
> 
> Your post is still there on purgatory. I was just looking at it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

I don't think that Chris meant for you to leave the RTF...

Judy


----------



## Tim Lawrence (Feb 18, 2008)

Doc E said:


> And the top reasons for re-introducing them are :
> (In addition to "biological diversity")
> 1. Killing sheep
> 2. Killing cows
> ...


This is a true statement. Couldn't agree more. I've hunted areas in Idaho that used to have great hunting and lately with the wolves in the area, its gone to crap. Lucky to see a handful of animals compared to years prior.


----------



## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Mr Glass said:


> The title doesn't do it justice, but the point is that wolves are not afraid of people here. They really don't have anything to fear until this past year when the season opened up on them. This past year in the Bab marshal wilderness my cousin and I were elk hunting and had a pack of 8 wolves trail us while we were headed back to the truck. About 3 miles. When we go to the truck they just spread out behind us and watched us load up. the whole time they were howling and would get about 40 yards from us then turn and fade back to about 75 yards. According to the biologist we reported it to they were trying to break us apart, they thought that two of us was to much for them to handle. Maybe i'm just a weenie but that was scary enough that next time I Shoot, shovel, and shut up! We will never know for sure if the wolves were protecting territory or just looking for food. It is a risk we have here.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID1CNsdw4NA&feature=fvw Grizzly ran off by wolves


Wow, scary business there. I think I couldn't resist but to shoot one or two, for my own protection.


----------



## Mr Glass (Mar 21, 2009)

I will be shooting if my wife, our girls and I run into any this year hiking, camping, etc. I will shoot as soon as I see one, no matter the distance. Some may ask, why put my family in that situation? Well, the wife and I love the outdoors to much. (We both hunt, and truthfully the wife might be a better shot then me.) There is no point to being scared. Heck maybe we'd thin them out a little in the areas we like to camp.


----------



## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

PackLeader said:


> I don't want bugs, bees, or ticks. Surfers don't want sharks, gellyfish, or stingrays.
> 
> How do we make everyone happy?



By not reintroducing a sub species that was not there to start with for starters.....

Figure out how to wipe out ticks and I am all for it....


By the way do you give your dogs heartguard???? or maybe You don't trust the whole "heartworms have a right to be here" philosophy


And I have never heard of a "gellyfish"


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

limiman12 said:


> By not reintroducing a sub species that was not there to start with for starters.....
> 
> Figure out how to wipe out ticks and I am all for it....
> 
> ...


Protecting yourself or your family is one thing. 

The illegal slaughtering of an innocent animal for fun is another.


----------



## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Protecting yourself or your family is one thing.
> 
> The illegal slaughtering of an innocent animal for fun is another.


I may have misread your intent -- I took it that you were talking about shooting cougars for "sport"............... 

The huge majority of Cats are not killed. They are "bayed" by the dogs and treed. Pics are taken and the "hunters" leave the area, and the kitty goes on to live it's life. This is markedly different than "slaughtering an innocent animal for fun".

The only time cougars are typically killed is if they have become a threat to humans or livestock. Once in awhile a true trophy animal is killed. Sometimes they are killed to "keep the balance". 
BTW, they taste pretty good too. Almost never are they just shot and left to rot.

I'm constantly amazed at the comments from people that don't live in Wolf country. Take a look at the posts (states) from different parts of the country. Those of us that do live in Wolf Country have a markedly different (educated) view than those that don't live in wolf country.



.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Well I think Kinky lived near the kill sight. Unfortunately for us I think he decided to leave before he could tell us how he really felt about things.

Judging from his post in the picture thread 

"I'm a hunter and a tree hugger"

I doubt he shared the views of other in this thread.


----------



## Kris Hunt (Feb 25, 2005)

Mr Glass said:


> I will be shooting if my wife, our girls and I run into any this year hiking, camping, etc. I will shoot as soon as I see one, no matter the distance. Some may ask, why put my family in that situation? Well, the wife and I love the outdoors to much. (We both hunt, and truthfully the wife might be a better shot then me.) There is no point to being scared. Heck maybe we'd thin them out a little in the areas we like to camp.


My favorite camping spot is Harper Lake, S of Seeley. That is until I found out how many wolves are there (hint hint). We had a coyote come through the camp once, dogs chased it out. And we've seen black bear scat and tracks. I've also had a little run in with a Grizzley bear at Eagle Creek campground W of Livingston. Lots of deer, a moose a time or two, badgers, beavers, etc. And Nothing, but nothing scares me like the wolves do. A bear and coyotes aren't there to attack like a wolf would be. I am very tolerant and supporter of all the creatures, except wolves.

I have friends that have had dogs taken from their yards, others lead out into the woods on purpose etc. not to mention the ones who lost 120 sheep in ONE night slaughter, and a cow here and there.

I am a HUGE supporter of the WILD lands, but I do believe that the wolves must to controlled as best we can. And a hunting season may just do the trick. For those folks who say they have a right to be there, well lets put some in your back yard and see how you feel. I thought I'd tell a few people while I'm down here in CA, when they ask what I have in the truck I'm telling them WOLVES and they are part of the reintroduction plan to the Sierra Nevadas! LOL Afterall, wolves and grizzlies for that matter, use to cover pretty much the entire united states. 

Kris


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Interesting thread. I've been thinking about it, and I'm a little conflicted.

Wolves, humans, and cougars are all at the top of the food chain. I'm all for the human winning out on the individual and local levels! 

That said, I like the idea of there being some places in this great and big and still-wild country where there's enough space for wolves and cougars to exist with little and seldom intrusion from man. 

But for as long as there are truly wild spaces, there will also be boundary battles--and like I said, I side with my own species on that. I think a season on wolves in some areas might be totally appropriate.

When man lives in or near or hunts or visits wild areas, he should certainly be able to defend himself!--He should also be smart enough and unsentimental enough to realize the ensuing battle may have consequences that don't always work in his favor.

My folks live in extreme northern Wisconsin, and there are active wolfpacks and the rare cougar that do occasionally cause trouble or concern, and I think about it a lot when I'm out there. I also think it's pretty cool. And I also think I'd rather not meet one.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

When you talk about the killing of a protected species in public it makes *ALL* hunters look bad regardless of where they live or how you feel about it.

Let's look at some other hunters opinions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mu_rqmFpL8&feature=channel


----------



## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> When you talk about the killing of a protected species in public it makes *ALL* hunters look bad regardless of where they live or how you feel about it.
> 
> Let's look at some other hunters opinions.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mu_rqmFpL8&feature=channel


I'm just curious as to how many wild wolves you've come across in your lifetime, and what impact they've had on you personally. Or are you just being argumentative about something in which you have no personal experience?


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I'm not being argumentative. I don't care what you do. Just be a man of your word sss.


----------



## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

PackLeader said:


> I'm not being argumentative. I don't care what you do. Just be a man of your word sss.


Maybe "argumentative" wasn't the right word. You seem to be trying to educate us about wolves and their behavior on this thread. I would assume that you have some personal experience with wolves then. Could you please let me know what that experience is, so I know if I should take you seriously?


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

kindakinky said:


> I totally supported not posting my photos as well. I was in total shock as to these photos because I have hunted that area for nearly 30 years.
> 
> I was in such shock to these photos, I reacted emotionally. The photos just scared and shocked and chilled me to the soul.
> 
> ...


We are in agreement. I'd say 99% of our members love the critters that populate the areas we hunt and train. Maybe 100. 

We agree that this is an emotional reaction. 

Destroying your account seems a bit extreme to me.

I wish you the best and please know that the RTF door is wide open anytime you want to walk back in. RTF is done "deleting" accounts. The reason is this: It is an absolute TON OF WORK to manually go through and delete all the individual posts that someone made. Not only that, but if that happens lots of threads become nonsense, as the posts that the deleted individual made are removed, the thread begins to make no sense at all.

If we "delete your username", then all your threads become posted by "Anonymous" as an username. So we don't do that.

We do have folks whose accounts are locked and blocked for various reasons. Yours is not one. As such, you are off RTF by your own will...

Welcome back anytime.

Chris


----------



## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

The wolves have done quite a bit of damage to bear hunting hounds too. It is getting more common to hear about bear hunters catching up with their hounds only to see them wiped out like your pics. At least one has been spotted in NE Nevada.

Don't ask don't tell regards!


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

Read about the Unified Sportsman of Pa and their Law Suit against the Pa Game Comm. due to their plans of the Eradication of the Deer herd in Pa. 

Also the DCNR plans to take over private and state lands for their use.

I believe Your best chance to solve your problems with over population of Wolf is to follow suit of the Unified Sportsman of Pa. http://www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org/news.html

I would wonder if what is going on in Pa is no different than the rest of the USA.


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## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Would someone please tell me what I'm missing? Is sending hound dogs into the forest to chase a mountain lion up a tree a sport?

If there are so many wolves it sounds sort of like sending a retriever onto the highway to "fetch it up."


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Is sending hound dogs into the forest to chase a mountain lion up a tree a sport?


Yes



.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

James Seibel said:


> Read about the Unified Sportsman of Pa and their Law Suit against the Pa Game Comm. due to their plans of the Eradication of the Deer herd in Pa.
> 
> Also the DCNR plans to take over private and state lands for their use.
> 
> ...


You gotta be kidding me.... please, make sure you're informed before you put stuff like this on th forum. The only thing the Unified Sportsman have done is to dilute the already limited funds the Game Commission has. Why not post that the first lawsuit was thrown out... and the second one has even less standing....


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Would someone please tell me what I'm missing? Is sending hound dogs into the forest to chase a mountain lion up a tree a sport?
> 
> If there are so many wolves it sounds sort of like sending a retriever onto the highway to "fetch it up."


Rosemary,

Careful... someone's going to ask next "is sending a bird dog into a field to find a pheasant a sport?"

Hound dogs and hunters that use them has just as much tradition and sport to their game as us retriever folks...


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Would someone please tell me what I'm missing? Is sending hound dogs into the forest to chase a mountain lion up a tree a sport?
> 
> If there are so many wolves it sounds sort of like sending a retriever onto the highway to "fetch it up."


Yes, and they are legally participating in the sport of their choice. Just as the deer herds need to be managed, so do mountain lion and wolf populations. If you can enjoy your working dogs (hounds) while doing so, more power to you.


----------



## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Mike Tome said:


> Rosemary,
> 
> Careful... someone's going to ask next "is sending a bird dog into a field to find a pheasant a sport?"
> 
> Hound dogs and hunters that use them has just as much tradition and sport to their game as us retriever folks...



We eat pheasant. How does Mountain Lion taste?


----------



## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Rosemary Westling said:


> We eat pheasant. How does Mountain Lion taste?


From the people I know who have eaten it, they say it is very tasty. Tastes like chicken.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Rosemary Westling said:


> We eat pheasant. How does Mountain Lion taste?


Not everything is hunted to eat.... coyotes, fox.... freakin' starlings going through my bird seed faster than the native birds can even find it to eat....


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Rosemary Westling said:


> We eat pheasant. How does Mountain Lion taste?


Rosemary, its clear you haven't participated in hunting with hounds. Therefore please respect my culture. I hunt with dogs. I fail to understand why someone against hunting with dogs would come on a board dedicated to the training of hunting dogs and then condemn the use of dogs for hunting. Perhaps Victoria Stillwell's forum would be more to suiting. In the meantime, I have to tolerate the culture of of things I personally don't disagree with and I'd ask the same of others.

/Paul


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

huntinman said:


> From the people I know who have eaten it, they say it is very tasty. Tastes like chicken.


It's very delicious. Argueably one of the finest game meats there is.
Also, the rendered fat is an amazing face/hand lotion.



.


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

huntinman said:


> Tastes like chicken.


Is that what's in the chicken fingers at the local Chinese place? I always wondered what kind of cat that was..


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## J Hoggatt (Jun 16, 2004)

Rosemary Westling said:


> We eat pheasant. How does Mountain Lion taste?


Better if you use a little garlic....

Better Them than us--- We are seeing them and finding their tracks with more regularity in our State...... Mountain Lions that is.... Wolves I hope not -


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Rosemary Westling said:


> We eat pheasant. How does Mountain Lion taste?


Quite good, actually. And a lot like chicken. I enjoyed it thoroughly.


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## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Rosemary, its clear you haven't participated in hunting with hounds. Therefore please respect my culture. I hunt with dogs. I fail to understand why someone against hunting with dogs would come on a board dedicated to the training of hunting dogs and then condemn the use of dogs for hunting. Perhaps Victoria Stillwell's forum would be more to suiting. In the meantime, I have to tolerate the culture of of things I personally don't disagree with and I'd ask the same of others.
> 
> /Paul


Dear Paul, This is a Retriever site. My dogs retrieve all the time and I am not against hunting. I hunt for food. And if I'm not going to eat it I don't kill it.
Anyway I just asked "Why?" As in: "Why would some one knowingly send their beloved pet into a wolf infested are?" I have eaten wild hog tracked by dogs (who are protected with spike collars and leather vests) and understand hounds treeing racoons and being shot and eaten. 

I don't see the sport in chasing "Cats" up trees.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Dear Paul, This is a Retriever site. My dogs retrieve all the time and I am not against hunting. I hunt for food. And if I'm not going to eat it I don't kill it.
> Anyway I just asked "Why?" As in: "Why would some one knowingly send their beloved pet into a wolf infested are?" I have eaten wild hog tracked by dogs (who are protected with spike collars and leather vests) and understand hounds treeing racoons and being shot and eaten.
> 
> I don't see the sport in chasing "Cats" up trees.


I did happen to notice that this is a retriever site. Thanks though for clarifying how the anti hunters will see the difference between hunting birds with dogs and hunting big game with dogs. I'm pretty sure the legislation they draft and lobby will not be so clear. There is considerably more to "chasing cats up tree's" although I wouldn't expect you to understand. Are you as disturbed by people killing gators in your neck of the woods?

/Paul


----------



## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Dear Paul, This is a Retriever site. My dogs retrieve all the time and I am not against hunting. I hunt for food. And if I'm not going to eat it I don't kill it.
> Anyway I just asked "Why?" As in: "Why would some one knowingly send their beloved pet into a wolf infested are?" I have eaten wild hog tracked by dogs (who are protected with spike collars and leather vests) and understand hounds treeing racoons and being shot and eaten.
> 
> I don't see the sport in chasing "Cats" up trees.


Your posts clearly indicates how little you know about "cat" hunting.


----------



## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I did happen to notice that this is a retriever site. Thanks though for clarifying how the anti hunters will see the difference between hunting birds with dogs and hunting big game with dogs. I'm pretty sure the legislation they draft and lobby will not be so clear. There is considerably more to "chasing cats up tree's" although I wouldn't expect you to understand. Are you as disturbed by people killing gators in your neck of the woods?
> 
> /Paul


Dear Paul, 
I only wish more gators were killed. We could have gator tail for dinner. Or even keep our retrievers safer. Unfortunately it is illegal to shoot alligators. 
In this neck of the woods people shoot coyote, bobcat, racoon, opossum and other threats to the Bob White Quail. I understand that. 
I have seen videos of Mountain Lion hunts. Are they a threat? 

Respectfully, Rosemary


----------



## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Dear Paul, This is a Retriever site. My dogs retrieve all the time and I am not against hunting. I hunt for food. And if I'm not going to eat it I don't kill it.
> Anyway I just asked "Why?" As in: "Why would some one knowingly send their beloved pet into a wolf infested are?" I have eaten wild hog tracked by dogs (who are protected with spike collars and leather vests) and understand hounds treeing racoons and being shot and eaten.
> 
> I don't see the sport in chasing "Cats" up trees.


So Rosemary, if I'm sitting in the middle of a field on a hot day, with a bucket of dead stinking ducks that I'm not going to eat, am I being sporting? According to your definition I don't think so; yet you're on a site that's dedicated to that very thing.

I doubt 1/20 of the birds my dog has retrieved were eaten. 

Predator control is very necessary, and obvious to anyone who has spent any time in the woods in an area that has predators.


----------



## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Hoosier said:


> So Rosemary, if I'm sitting in the middle of a field on a hot day, with a bucket of dead stinking ducks that I'm not going to eat, am I being sporting? According to your definition I don't think so; yet your on a site that's dedicated to that very thing.
> 
> I doubt 1/20 of the birds my dog has retrieved were eaten.
> 
> Predator control is very necessary, and obvious to anyone who has spent any time in the woods in an area that has predators.


Dear Hoosier, You are absolutely right! Predator control is necessary. So how about coming down here and hunting up some predators? I'll give you a nickel for every rattlesnake and a quater for every gator. You can hunt with your dogs or without!

Recpectfully, Rosemary


----------



## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Dear Hoosier, You are absolutely right! Predator control is necessary. So how about coming down here and hunting up some predators? I'll give you a nickel for every rattlesnake and a quater for every gator. You can hunt with your dogs or without!
> 
> Recpectfully, Rosemary


...and I'll give you fifty cents for every goose you can shoot in my back yard! How bout them apples!


----------



## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

I get the predator control, I get that some people find it a sport, I get I get I get.

What I don't quite get: Human (top of the food chain), intentionally hunting cougar (top of the food chain), in an area with wolves (top of the food chain), with dogs (threat to cougar who is compelled to climb tree; perceived or actual threat to wolves with a kill, "family," or pups nearby), and anyone is shocked that the dogs might not come out of it unscathed???

I'm not saying no one cares for these dogs--I'm sure it's a devastating loss, and I'm sorry for their grief--but some folks are expressing a level of surprise that I find... surprising. I would assume folks who do these activities with their dogs would already have, or at least in retrospect, swallowed and digested the gory idea of nature red in tooth and claw.

But then, it always surprises when it happens to our own, I guess...

Very interesting conversation--hope it remains productive until it ends peacefully.


----------



## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Dear Hoosier, You are absolutely right! Predator control is necessary. So how about coming down here and hunting up some predators? I'll give you a nickel for every rattlesnake and a quater for every gator. You can hunt with your dogs or without!
> 
> Recpectfully, Rosemary


Nice little tap dance around my question. So am I being sporting?


----------



## Rich Baker (Oct 10, 2009)

Rosemary Westling said:


> We eat pheasant. How does Mountain Lion taste?


Actually Mt lion is one of the best tasting game meats Ive killed and ate 3 of them. I have done it spot and stalk as its not leagle here to run hounds anymore.

























It is like a lean pork , a sweet meat. very good in fact id trade deer and elk for it 2 to 1


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## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Would someone please tell me what I'm missing? Is sending hound dogs into the forest to chase a mountain lion up a tree a sport?
> 
> If there are so many wolves it sounds sort of like sending a retriever onto the highway to "fetch it up."[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Rosemary Westling said:
> 
> 
> > Would someone please tell me what I'm missing? Is sending hound dogs into the forest to chase a mountain lion up a tree a sport?
> ...


----------



## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Hoosier said:


> Rosemary Westling said:
> 
> 
> > I don't need to tap dance around that question. When I was growing up my grandfather, uncles and most of the adult men I knew ran **** hounds, Walkers mostly. They trained these dogs together, and spent a lot of quality time together running them. One of the best memories I have of my grandfather is him letting me shoot a **** out when I was about 10 years old, after the dogs had it treed. To them and me that was sporting. I don't see running lions as any different then that, just a different animal.
> ...


----------



## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Rosemary

I'm not avoiding your PM, but if you've never run behind a bunch of hounds, you'll never understand what is so special about treeing a cat (or **** or possum etc).
Why just tree a cat -- because it is a sport in and of itself as well as being considered TRAINING for the real thing (killing the kitty) -- eating the kitty and having a nice skin rug on the wall or on the floor.

If you ever get the chance, just go along with some houndsmen and you'll understand -- until then, there is no way to convey to you what the purpose is. Once you've done it, you will understand. 

Do you never run a dog in a nice Upland field and get a rush from a Flush or a hard Point ? --- Without ever even taking a gun ? Same as treeing a Cat.



.


----------



## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Hoosier said:
> 
> 
> > Just a different animal? Why don't you get a club and beat a baby seal? And if a polar bear gets your dog while you are at it don't cry about it. Just tough it up and call it part of the hunt!
> ...


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Rosemary Westling said:
> 
> 
> > Would someone please tell me what I'm missing? Is sending hound dogs into the forest to chase a mountain lion up a tree a sport?
> ...


----------



## Rich Baker (Oct 10, 2009)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Rosemary Westling said:
> 
> 
> > Would someone please tell me what I'm missing? Is sending hound dogs into the forest to chase a mountain lion up a tree a sport?
> ...


----------



## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Hoosier said:


> Rosemary Westling said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, just another animal
> ...


----------



## Decoyn (Nov 4, 2008)

If there are so many wolves it sounds sort of like sending a retriever onto the highway to "fetch it up."


I believe that if you read the original post you will read that it wasn't until after they talked with the wildlife biologist about the incident that the wildlife biologist stated that there is a known den in that area. It was also noted that they don't inform individuals about these den locations so that people don't disrupt then wolves. Maybe the state should reconsider their policy.


----------



## Rich Baker (Oct 10, 2009)

Decoyn said:


> If there are so many wolves it sounds sort of like sending a retriever onto the highway to "fetch it up."
> 
> 
> I believe that if you read the original post you will read that it wasn't until after they talked with the wildlife biologist about the incident that the wildlife biologist stated that there is a known den in that area. It was also noted that they don't inform individuals about these den locations so that people don't disrupt then wolves. Maybe the state should reconsider their policy.


I think the state should have never brought them back. heck there are to many preditors now. I just sit back and watch game herd dwindal all over this state and we can do nothing about it. People back east are pretty clueless about all this because it aint happening to there turf.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Gun dogs get snake proofing down south. Do these dogs get wolf proofed? Just asking.


----------



## Rich Baker (Oct 10, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> Gun dogs get snake proofing down south. Do these dogs get wolf proofed? Just asking.


Well like sombody else stated This doesnt happen very much. Im not sure how you would wolf proof a dog because the wolves hear the baying and come looking for the easy meal.


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Hoosier said:
> 
> 
> > They are good with sweet potatoes, "fava beans and a little Chinati...yum, yum, yum........." Hanibal Lecter
> ...


----------



## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> Gun dogs get snake proofing down south. Do these dogs get wolf proofed? Just asking.


*Some* dogs get snakeproofing. And some get vaccinated. And snakeproofing isn't 100%.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

PackLeader said:


> Gun dogs get snake proofing down south. Do these dogs get wolf proofed? Just asking.


I don't think that snakes "come looking" for a dog to bite...... Some wolves do.
Apples and oranges regards,



.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Snake proofing is only as good as the handlers ability to read the dog. If the dog refused and you send him back in then it's much less effective.

I think a wolf pack would smell stronger to a dog than a snake so it could be more effective.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Dear Paul,
> I only wish more gators were killed. We could have gator tail for dinner. Or even keep our retrievers safer. Unfortunately it is illegal to shoot alligators.
> In this neck of the woods people shoot coyote, bobcat, racoon, opossum and other threats to the Bob White Quail. I understand that.
> I have seen videos of Mountain Lion hunts. Are they a threat?
> ...


If they are anywhere near livestock they are.....

And considering how far they roam, Near is relaive. 

You are missing the point of the thread though. it was about the unwanted wolves, not treeing cats.

It has been established that many people do eat the cats that they shoot, and that many cats that are treed are not shot due to they are not a "trophy" animal. You are kinda losing your point and not realizing it.


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## Rosemary Westling (Jun 13, 2006)

Hoosier said:


> Rosemary Westling said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't post on a thread started by a guy who had just lost a couple of dogs, and nearly lost two others, that I don't see anything sporting about how they were hunting, and not expect someone to question what i was saying. Especially on a site dedicated to training hunting dogs, but that's just me.
> ...


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

Doc E said:


> I don't think that snakes "come looking" for a dog to bite...... Some wolves do.
> Apples and oranges regards,
> 
> .


The two dogs that made it could be the best dogs in the pack now. When you see them acting funney get them out of the woods. If anyone learned anything from this adventure its them two.


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## Hoosier (Feb 28, 2008)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Hoosier said:
> 
> 
> > his post is started with '...just what we need more wolves." So he knows there are wolves where he is hunting and he puts his dogs in their territory. He should be blaming himself for disrespect of his dogs. Not the uncontroled wolf population. Where were the hunters when the dogs were being attacked? They were not protecting their dogs. They lost control of the situation and one of the worst scenarios occured.
> ...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Dear Paul,
> I only wish more gators were killed. We could have gator tail for dinner. Or even keep our retrievers safer. Unfortunately it is illegal to shoot alligators.
> In this neck of the woods people shoot coyote, bobcat, racoon, opossum and other threats to the Bob White Quail. I understand that.
> I have seen videos of Mountain Lion hunts. Are they a threat?
> ...


Well considering a good friend last month who lives 2 minutes from my house shot one in self defense as it attacked him and his dogs 18 feet from his backdoor, I'd consider them a threat. In the past month there have been more than a dozen mountain lions that had to be killed because they are stalking people, and in one case a grade school. I grew up hunting hounds. It was a proper game management tool as Cougar have devastated the deer/elk herds and have become a serious threat to humans as both urban growth and overpopulation have driven people and Cougars to have to live in close proximity to each other. 

Sadly helping my friend go through the experience with his Cougar killing revealed some very interesting politics behind current anti-hunting efforts here in Oregon. The minute State Police (game wardens) showed up they immediately went to radio silence and used cell phones for all communication. the officers told us flat out they did not want the local news informed and wanted it hushed up. When the biologist showed up the first thing he wanted to know was if anyone knew what was going on or if the news had been informed. The officers reassured him that radio silence had been maintained. As the day went on they basically admitted that they do not want people to know how much of a problem Cougars in Oregon have become because the funding for the State Police and Biology departments came from huge donations from political parties intent on mostly anti hunting agenda's. As well the officer admitted that they get called daily with Cougar issues, spottings and attacks. You won't see any of that in newspapers. 

/paul


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Rosemary Westling said:


> Hoosier said:
> 
> 
> > his post is started with '...just what we need more wolves." So he knows there are wolves where he is hunting and he puts his dogs in their territory. He should be blaming himself for disrespect of his dogs. Not the uncontroled wolf population. Where were the hunters when the dogs were being attacked? They were not protecting their dogs. They lost control of the situation and one of the worst scenarios occured.
> ...


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> I live in the midst of wolf packs, though I have only ever seen one wolf in my entire life here and I'm out alot. I've walked into several bears, had a buck charge me during the rut, coyotes are all around the house at all hours and have had a shadow hover while I was walking a pair of pups in the driveway to look up and see an eagle way too close. I don't go out unarmed, nor do I let my dogs roam unattended or train alone in places I know there are wolves. They can be managed like anything else without being exterminated. Turning hounds loose to hunt incurs a high risk of attack by multiple animals, including the ones they hunt. This passionate hatred of wolves is similar to the hatred many have for pitbulls and there simply is no way to rationally discuss either, like politics and religion, emotion overrules all. The WI DNR kindly supplies info of pack territory, denning sites and dog predation sites, just to keep us on our toes. http://wiatri.net/website/AtriDemo/viewer.htm http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/er/mammals/wolf/wolf_map.htm


Gave me goose bumps to look at the map. I have spent many hours in the woods around Rhinelander and never gave a thought to wolves. 

Most of my family hunts ***** and hogs around Oklahoma with hounds. Hound causalities are heartbreaking but a way of life in these parts. Though most come for cars.

I wonder if putting a monstrous armored hog hunting pitbull with the hounds would help deter the wolves any? Oh wait we hate pitbulls too


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

savage25xtreme said:


> Gave me goose bumps to look at the map. I have spent many hours in the woods around Rhinelander and never gave a thought to wolves.
> 
> Most of my family hunts ***** and hogs around Oklahoma with hounds. Hound causalities are heartbreaking but a way of life in these parts. Though most come for cars.
> 
> I wonder if putting a monstrous armored hog hunting pitbull with the hounds would help deter the wolves any? Oh wait we hate pitbulls too


Considering how many active wolf packs we have and the large amount of bear hounds running, the actual number of dog kills is relatively small, so maybe the maps do help hound owners avoid danger areas. I know all the hunters are complaining about deer numbers way down, though they seem awfully plentiful right around me, while bear numbers are way more than the DNR predicted. My BIL owns thousands of acres he manages for his own deer hunting, some in a wolf denning area and that deer herd has pretty much dwindled. He encounters them quite often anymore as does my vet, who had a pack of 10 run by his ground blind while he was bowhunting. I heard on the radio last week that 16 wolves have been killed in the last two months in MN, WI and the UP, with 8 of them being from WI, the SSS squads are apparently trying to correct the numbers.


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## luvalab (Oct 10, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Considering how many active wolf packs we have and the large amount of bear hounds running, the actual number of dog kills is relatively small, so maybe the maps do help hound owners avoid danger areas. I know all the hunters are complaining about deer numbers way down, though they seem awfully plentiful right around me, while bear numbers are way more than the DNR predicted. My BIL owns thousands of acres he manages for his own deer hunting, some in a wolf denning area and that deer herd has pretty much dwindled. He encounters them quite often anymore as does my vet, who had a pack of 10 run by his ground blind while he was bowhunting. I heard on the radio last week that 16 wolves have been killed in the last two months in MN, WI and the UP, with 8 of them being from WI, the SSS squads are apparently trying to correct the numbers.


My folks live in Bayfield. My father has spent many a quiet morn in his little tree-stand contemplating the DNR's wolf estimates. 

Sometimes the numbers jibe with his observations, but usually they don't--I suspect it may depend on how disgusted he is by his empty freezer.  But all evidence is that it's definitely worth questioning.


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