# back command



## cwyattsr (Feb 5, 2017)

I am working with my 2 y.o. lab on the back command (with my hand raised with the verbal command); he does it perfectly if he knows the bird is behind him, even on 100+ yard retrieves but he has not gotten it down to running back on a blind - does he need more repetition or are there other methods?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Use Lardy's TRT method of teaching basics.


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## hillsidegoldens (Mar 28, 2009)

I teach dog to do right back left back left over and right over at short distance with visible bumpers. Then teach dog to run to a pile once dog will run to the pile then stop the dog and cast back.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Is he forced on back?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I think the OP is referring to early transition to cold blinds. A lot of dogs have problems understanding this new idea of go to no apparent destination. If force to go was properly taught, you can salt the field and force them to go. When they go they will be rewarded with a bumper, (ducks are better), no matter what line he takes.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

> does he need more repetition or are there other methods?


Yes and yes. 

To expand a bit on Johns' post above ...... we need to change the dogs perception and expectation from "I know it's there" to "Well he says it's there and he was right last time", and thus build up his confidence in you, his handler and mate. 

There are a few dodges and wheezes that are used, and given that you know your dog best you can probably work some out for yourself, but as a ferinstance, as we know he's doing nice marks on his back command, we'll build up on that. 

Find some feature that can be approached from different directions; a bit of scrub or a tussocky grass area and work on a few marks, but instead of using one dummy use three or four. Start at modest range (you can judge it best) and give him a series of repeats; that way he'll come to know that even if he hasn't seen the bird go down, he'll find one there. I like to use a bit of cover and not just drop the bumpers in the open by a cone, because I want him to have confidence without seeking visual confirmation at this stage. Build up stepwise on distance.

Then send him from other directions to the same spot, again building up over distance; he's now got clear that if he's sent there he'll find a bird no matter what. Then use a fold in the ground and drop a couple of bright white dummies into it, that he can't see from his eye level. From the nearest distance possible give him his back command in such a way that as he crests the rise he'll spot them. Alter direction and build in distance.

From there it's just a matter of salting bits of cover (without his knowledge) and sending him, building up distance and complexity.

If you are training for US FTs and Hunt Tests as opposed to hunting, you may want to take care that the wind doesn't help him too much ie encourage him to use his nose. I want mine to use theirs, so I make use of air scent wherever I can. A banana shot doesn't bother me, but it may some others!

I don't FF so I haven't addressed it.

Eug


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Please clarify. Are you following a training program? If so, which one. And where are you in your training program? Need more information to give advice.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Colonel Blimp said:


> Yes and yes.
> 
> To expand a bit on Johns' post above ...... we need to change the dogs perception and expectation from "I know it's there" to "Well he say it's there and he was right last time", and thus build up his confidence in you, his handler and mate.
> 
> ...


Some nice methods here, utilizing and building teamwork/trust.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

cwyattsr said:


> I am working with my 2 y.o. lab on the back command (with my hand raised with the verbal command); he does it perfectly if he knows the bird is behind him, even on 100+ yard retrieves but he has not gotten it down to running back on a blind - does he need more repetition or are there other methods?



Major hole in your training, FF was not done. FF is way more than having the dog hold a bumper. You have absolutely no tools to correct this behavior without proper FF being done. Best of luck. When FF is done correctly.....My Scooter dog I have issues with him breaking when told "dead bird" he wants to go so bad to unseen bird, I can only line him him up and say, "good, right there" then back or he gets so excited. When you FF correctly most any dog with good breeding will run just as hard on blinds and marks.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

We may assume he has not done FF - but that is the whole 'ass u me' part that often gets folks sideways on the forum. 

We don't know enough about the dog or the trainer. A dog CAN be FF and not go as sent.. FF is the foundation of the American style of teaching a dog to run blinds... But there are a lot of other steps that have to be taken in order to transition FF to 'Back'.... 

And, yes, there are other methods to correct the issue without using FF. Colonel Blimp outlined some pretty nice methods to do so.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Tobias said:


> We may assume he has not done FF - but that is the whole 'ass u me' part that often gets folks sideways on the forum.
> 
> We don't know enough about the dog or the trainer. A dog CAN be FF and not go as sent.. FF is the foundation of the American style of teaching a dog to run blinds... But there are a lot of other steps that have to be taken in order to transition FF to 'Back'....
> 
> And, yes, there are other methods to correct the issue without using FF. Colonel Blimp outlined some pretty nice methods to do so.



Yes, but if all you know is force, all you will use is force., and you will always consider force is the 'only' way. I am using the collective 'you' in this post, not you personally.

And that is the big 'hole' in this forum.....unfortunately.


-Paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

What the op described is not a method. Hard to know if there are "other" methods if you don't know what method the op used. 

Based on the information provided in the op, I'd start with teaching limits with mild admonition, informal obedience with treats, socialization, and intro to field. In other words, I'd start at square 1.

If the op responds with more detail on where the dog is and how he's taught back thus far, maybe he can start a little further into the process.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

paul young said:


> Yes, but if all you know is force, all you will use is force., and you will always consider force is the 'only' way. I am using the collective 'you' in this post, not you personally.
> 
> And that is the big 'hole' in this forum.....unfortunately.
> 
> ...


True indeed. 

​


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## Falfa (Mar 11, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Major hole in your training, FF was not done. FF is way more than having the dog hold a bumper. You have absolutely no tools to correct this behavior without proper FF being done. Best of luck. When FF is done correctly.....My Scooter dog I have issues with him breaking when told "dead bird" he wants to go so bad to unseen bird, I can only line him him up and say, "good, right there" then back or he gets so excited. When you FF correctly most any dog with good breeding will run just as hard on blinds and marks.


would you say you have a major hole in your training with scooter?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

According to the OP's stud advertisement (assuming it's the same dog) - he has been FF. But no indication of other type if training regarding FTP, etc.

It is also possible to have a dog that 'breaks' on blinds w/o FF. Plenty of dogs out there have that type of drive.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Tobias said:


> According to the OP's stud advertisement (assuming it's the same dog) - he has been FF. But no indication of other type if training regarding FTP, etc.
> 
> It is also possible to have a dog that 'breaks' on blinds w/o FF. Plenty of dogs out there have that type of drive.


My Gus dog is very high drive, As you point out, FF has nothing to do with it. I have to be careful lining him up, he wants to go so bad he would launch on the G-sound as I meant to say Good, he assumed I was going to say Gus. I had to switch nomenclature to "that's it".


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Falfa said:


> would you say you have a major hole in your training with scooter?


Perhaps, he is first and foremost one dam top waterfowl dog. Nothing, and I mean nothing will have me cull a dog faster than lack of desire. Scooter's issue like the Ranger son he is, may be too much horsepower under the hood. I love it, you probably not. 

He will never pass a Grand but he can run in the Qual just fine. He is 3/4 Masters so must not be a big hole. I simply do not use "dead bird". That is too much for him. I simply line him up and he looks straight I say, "good, right there" and he lines many, many blinds no issue. I read my dog.

my 5 year bitch NFC bred I can use dead bird on her. Either dog when I say back dirt in my face! I am a hunter, I hunt almost every single day of waterfowl season and many times my dogs only ones out so need a dog with go. I guess my hound background, never had a single dog back off a mean bear, many died doing there job. I demand the same kind of drive in my hunting dogs. Just me probably not your style.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

paul young said:


> Yes, but if all you know is force, all you will use is force., and you will always consider force is the 'only' way. I am using the collective 'you' in this post, not you personally.
> 
> And that is the big 'hole' in this forum.....unfortunately.
> 
> ...


Well some that all they know is force seem to being do OK. Many FC's here by trainers using force. Rick Stawski's Fowl dogs Series walks you right through FF and FTP. It's all about teaching how to turn off the pressure. Must be working because today's dogs far better than ever before. Breeding plays just a "small" part and I say that tongue in cheek. Heck if cheeseballs work I sure would be at Walmart picking up my jug!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Canuckkiller made a great point (not sure if it was in this thread or another) about how the early years of ecollar training resulted in dogs that WALKED to blinds - yes, I have seen it. All 200 yds.

Training methods have improved, yes. And I would suggest that in this day and age, less (force) is actually more (enter Bill Hillman).


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Just a point ..... the dodges and wheezes used to get a good confident outrun on a back / blind are not necessarily stand alones. Once the dog has the idea, if you wanted to revert to FF, collar and all that stuff you could. Just because you teach a concept one way doesn't undermine reinforcing by another. 

Todd posted "_*Rick Stawski's Fowl dogs Series walks you right through FF and FTP."*_ Of the published Carr based works, I found his to be the poorest, particularly obedience and the issue of "nagging". You could use some of his stuff as an exemplar of how not to do it. 
Eug


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm sure Rick values your input, Blimp.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Major hole in your training, FF was not done. FF is way more than having the dog hold a bumper. You have absolutely no tools to correct this behavior without proper FF being done. Best of luck. When FF is done correctly.....My Scooter dog I have issues with him breaking when told "dead bird" he wants to go so bad to unseen bird, I can only line him him up and say, "good, right there" then back or he gets so excited. When you FF correctly most any dog with good breeding will run just as hard on blinds and marks.


I'm just gonna leave this here...

Your dog's lack of obedience is not an indicator of a "done right" force fetch. The fact that you solved it by simply omitting a cue doesn't exactly point to quality "training" or "reading a dog". It's just the path of least resistance. 

Just sayin'. You have a lot of strong opinions.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Nothing, and I mean nothing will have me cull a dog faster than lack of desire.


have to ask - by cull, do you mean 'wash out'? The only other way I know the term cull is killing because the animal (dog, in this case) does not meet the human expectation.


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## Bracklab (Apr 11, 2014)

I was told yesterday that momentum on blinds and cold blinds in general can be very ugly for a very long time for some/most dogs. I have never taken a dog all the way through that sequence and transition so I don't know. I do have a pup now that I am working pattern blinds with. Same fella told me Lardy doesn't start short and gradually increase distance (I am not familiar with Lardy's program). That was a curious thought and seems contradictory to the way we train other concepts generally. I will have to bite the bullet and purchase Lardy one of these days.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Lardy's program revolves around the foundation of force (fetch) - the dog has been through all the pattern blind training and T/TT - the dog, if trained properly - will understand that not going is not an option (due to FTP and other force training - ie remote force on back). So starting long is a good option when transitioning to cold blinds.

For a dog that is not trained with this type of training - starting short and gradually increasing distance seems to be the only choice the trainer has.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Bracklab said:


> I was told yesterday that momentum on blinds and cold blinds in general can be very ugly for a very long time for some/most dogs. I have never taken a dog all the way through that sequence and transition so I don't know. I do have a pup now that I am working pattern blinds with. Same fella told me Lardy doesn't start short and gradually increase distance (I am not familiar with Lardy's program). That was a curious thought and seems contradictory to the way we train other concepts generally. I will have to bite the bullet and purchase Lardy one of these days.


Lardy moves from double-T to pattern blinds and teaches each leg. He does this by marking the pile and running from a short distance(30-40 yds), then moves back in increments to get back to the start line(typically 125-150 yds from the blind location). Once the dog can reliably line the 1st leg, he may leave the dog sitting 1/2 the distance for the 2nd leg and and go out and toss the bumpers in the pile so the dog can see. Run from there and then move back to the start line. Assuming this goes well, on the 3rd leg he may leave the dog at the start line and go out and toss bumpers like he did in the 2nd leg. Once pattern blinds and blind drills(pattern blinds with diversions) are complete, he begins running cold blinds with no factors(flat featureless field) at about the same distance as the pattern blinds were(125-150+ yds).


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Just as a "what if"......

_"back command (with my hand raised with the verbal command); he does *it* perfectly if he knows the bird is behind
him, even on 100+ yard *retrieves* but he has not gotten it down to running back on a *blind*"_

.....is the OP using "back" as the command for marks.....and blinds?


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

It's not uncommon for dogs to get confused bridging from pattern/sight/taught blinds to real cold blinds. Just walk behind the dog to keep the distance between handler/dog short so you can maintain some measure of control.

It's about confidence....not force.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

the dog must always think there's bird there - even if he can't see it...

would you work if you didn't think you were gonna get paid?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

OP has not responded. So we're just guessing based on our personal experience. Would be nice if OP would respond.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

KNorman said:


> It's not uncommon for dogs to get confused bridging from pattern/sight/taught blinds to real cold blinds. Just walk behind the dog to keep the distance between handler/dog short so you can maintain some measure of control.
> 
> It's about confidence....not force.


I agree with this. I think even if you have FF your dog and try to prematurely use force to get dogs to transition from pattern to cold blinds it can backfire. I found that walk out blinds helped my dog's confidence making the transition. By walk out, I mean having the dog walk with you into the field as you quietly set out your blinds. The dog may not know exactly where the bumpers were dropped but does know something is out there. I also found when doing pattern blinds, if I started relatively short and then ran from say double or more the distance, that helped confidence.


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## Falfa (Mar 11, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Perhaps, he is first and foremost one dam top waterfowl dog. Nothing, and I mean nothing will have me cull a dog faster than lack of desire. Scooter's issue like the Ranger son he is, may be too much horsepower under the hood. I love it, you probably not.
> 
> He will never pass a Grand but he can run in the Qual just fine. He is 3/4 Masters so must not be a big hole. I simply do not use "dead bird". That is too much for him. I simply line him up and he looks straight I say, "good, right there" and he lines many, many blinds no issue. I read my dog.
> 
> my 5 year bitch NFC bred I can use dead bird on her. Either dog when I say back dirt in my face! I am a hunter, I hunt almost every single day of waterfowl season and many times my dogs only ones out so need a dog with go. I guess my hound background, never had a single dog back off a mean bear, many died doing there job. I demand the same kind of drive in my hunting dogs. Just me probably not your style.


Not my style: Telling someone they have a "major hole" in their training. 

Telling someone they have "absolutely no tools "

telling someone that if they "FF correctly" their dog could be more like yours. 

Your ongoing Posts about bear dog prowess and your affinity for culling dogs that don't run like your Ranger offspring. 

My style: Humble Posts. 

Truly trying to be helpful.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Falfa, i generally agree with your post but perhaps you should put your real name on it.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Bracklab said:


> I was told yesterday that momentum on blinds and cold blinds in general can be very ugly for a very long time for some/most dogs. I have never taken a dog all the way through that sequence and transition so I don't know. I do have a pup now that I am working pattern blinds with. Same fella told me Lardy doesn't start short and gradually increase distance (I am not familiar with Lardy's program). That was a curious thought and seems contradictory to the way we train other concepts generally. I will have to bite the bullet and purchase Lardy one of these days.


Purchase it now and quit listening to that fella. Lardy starts blind work at less than 30 yards with pile work, starts again at about 20 yards on the T files, then again at around 25 yards when teaching pattern blinds, again at around 25 yards on the first blind drills. It is true that by the time he moves to cold blinds he doesn't start short. But, there is a ton of work that goes into the dog before starting cold blinds, so what you were told is a bit misleading.

And by the time you get to cold blinds, although there are sometimes bumps in the road, it is certainly not ugly for a very long time for many or even some dogs.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Tobias said:


> Lardy's program revolves around the foundation of force (fetch) - the dog has been through all the pattern blind training and T/TT - the dog, if trained properly - will understand that not going is not an option (due to FTP and other force training - ie remote force on back). So starting long is a good option when transitioning to cold blinds.
> 
> For a dog that is not trained with this type of training - starting short and gradually increasing distance seems to be the only choice the trainer has.


TRT trained dogs don't go because they are forced, you get them going before you force. You need to go back and study the program, if you've ever even seen it


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

captainjack said:


> TRT trained dogs don't go because they are forced, you get them going before you force. You need to go back and study the program, if you've ever even seen it


Well said Glen. People often contrast Hillmann's approach(light/minimal force) vs. Lardy's(Carr based force program). They are MUCH more alike than they are different. Lardy is nothing but fair to the dog and is always mindful of the dog, it's personality type, it's tendencies in training, etc. Other programs that were derived from Carr's methods aren't necessarily as fair and mindful of the dog as Lardy's. Not saying anything negative about any other program, just that there are some differences.

Bottom line, you don't have the success that Mike Lardy has had with dogs running as stylishly as they do without having the dog love the work. You don't get a dog loving the work if you constantly beat them over the head with force. Even on his videos, Lardy says if he had a dog that could do all the work, but you had to beat him over the head to keep him in line he wouldn't do it because "that's not what training is supposed to be".


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

DarrinGreene said:


> I'm just gonna leave this here...
> 
> Your dog's lack of obedience is not an indicator of a "done right" force fetch. The fact that you solved it by simply omitting a cue doesn't exactly point to quality "training" or "reading a dog". It's just the path of least resistance.
> 
> Just sayin'. You have a lot of strong opinions.


What lack of obedience are you referring to? Dog heals, comes when called will stop on a dime at 400 yards, take the correct cast, does not break, he gets more amped up than I like with a cue of dead bird. Darrin you are a trainer you know darn well I could beat that out of him. You see it all the time in FT, derby dog is a rocket by the time they are a open dog they are much slower on everything. Their is a balance on what is acceptable to YOU....there is no perfect dog. What I would cull a dog for you may just love and vise versa. Long ago I watched Lottie at the Madison FT, that dog practically did a break dance on the line, would you say her obedience had holes as well? Think about it.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

captainjack said:


> TRT trained dogs don't go because they are forced, you get them going before you force. You need to go back and study the program, if you've ever even seen it


 I did not say they go because they are forced... or did I? I said by the time the dog is done with all the 'basics' they know that 'not going' is not an option. IF DONE RIGHT. Force Fetch is the basis/foundation for the type of training used in many American based training programs, is it not?

and yes - I have seen Lardy's training dvd's.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Falfa said:


> Not my style: Telling someone they have a "major hole" in their training.
> 
> Telling someone they have "absolutely no tools "
> 
> ...


As others stated use your real name do not hide on the computer. Read the posts, my style of dog is NOT your style of dog. This is why there are numerous breedings to choose from. I have my standards and you have yours. It is simply that, you could care less what I run and me as well. This is a forum, different ideas, you neither have to listen to anyone or listen to everyone. I will tell you this, most people who love the Grande would never want my style of dog. They all have faults.

Second why so sensitive? Grow a thick skin. I have been told the same thing on the 5 year old bitch, I didn't cry, complain, I took the advise and made corrections. I still have a long ways to go and I listen to those who do better than me. I pick the pros brains, and talk with them at trials. Most pros very helpful if you put your ego and feeling aside. 

PS: a dog not going when sent is a major hole, no matter who you are. Also my culling is my culling not yours. Your standard and what you will accept is yours. I know Lardy would drops dogs in a minute. They all do not make it.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Long ago I watched Lottie at the Madison FT, that dog practically did a break dance on the line, would you say her obedience had holes as well? Think about it.


I sure don't remember that.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I sure don't remember that.


It would be great to have an eye witness account of posts made by others sometimes .
I'm sure it would wreck the hell to some .


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

polmaise said:


> It would be great to have an eye witness account of posts made by others sometimes .
> I'm sure it would wreck the hell to some .


ask WD Connor aka cannuckkiller, he has probably judged Lottie as much as any living individual, his mind is as sharp as ever and he has records of the tests he has thrown at various events including the National Am that he judged...


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## Falfa (Mar 11, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> As others stated use your real name do not hide on the computer. Read the posts, my style of dog is NOT your style of dog. This is why there are numerous breedings to choose from. I have my standards and you have yours. It is simply that, you could care less what I run and me as well. This is a forum, different ideas, you neither have to listen to anyone or listen to everyone. I will tell you this, most people who love the Grande would never want my style of dog. They all have faults.
> 
> Second why so sensitive? Grow a thick skin. I have been told the same thing on the 5 year old bitch, I didn't cry, complain, I took the advise and made corrections. I still have a long ways to go and I listen to those who do better than me. I pick the pros brains, and talk with them at trials. Most pros very helpful if you put your ego and feeling aside.
> 
> PS: a dog not going when sent is a major hole, no matter who you are. Also my culling is my culling not yours. Your standard and what you will accept is yours. I know Lardy would drops dogs in a minute. They all do not make it.


http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?103787-Stirring-the-pot

???????


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> ask WD Connor aka cannuckkiller, he has probably judged Lottie as much as any living individual, his mind is as sharp as ever and he has records of the tests he has thrown at various events including the National Am that he judged...


Thanks Bon. I'll decline . It's getting like you have to be a Politician on here these days .
Hope You are well and enjoying the life .


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Falfa said:


> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?103787-Stirring-the-pot
> 
> ???????


So Backwater's real name is Schmadl.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Yeah...as memory serves he was asked to use his real name. 

Ive kinda been wondering he told his pup's breeders he wasn't opposed to culling if they didn't meet his expectations.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> As others stated use your real name do not hide on the computer. Read the posts, my style of dog is NOT your style of dog. This is why there are numerous breedings to choose from. I have my standards and you have yours. It is simply that, you could care less what I run and me as well. This is a forum, different ideas, you neither have to listen to anyone or listen to everyone. I will tell you this, most people who love the Grande would never want my style of dog. They all have faults.
> 
> Second why so sensitive? Grow a thick skin. I have been told the same thing on the 5 year old bitch, I didn't cry, complain, I took the advise and made corrections. I still have a long ways to go and I listen to those who do better than me. I pick the pros brains, and talk with them at trials. Most pros very helpful if you put your ego and feeling aside.
> 
> PS: a dog not going when sent is a major hole, no matter who you are. Also my culling is my culling not yours. Your standard and what you will accept is yours. I know Lardy would drops dogs in a minute. They all do not make it.


I guess culling is just another word for washing out, not a big deal, most of us have washed a dog out here or there. It just seems by the tone of your post, that you're making assumptions about other posters dogs and taste in dogs. I'd say 90% of us like high drive dogs, most dogs I see run in field trials are at the high end of that spectrum, so I wouldn't get all high and mighty about your dog.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

One can only hope. He never answered my question.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Tobias said:


> One can only hope. He never answered my question.


It didn't occur to me that culling may mean more drastic measures, Todd, you're talking about washing out, selling or giving away the pup, right?


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

John Robinson said:


> It didn't occur to me that culling may mean more drastic measures, Todd, you're talking about washing out, selling or giving away the pup, right?


Even in livestock Culling only means taking to the sale barn, unless the animal is too sick or injured to do so.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Daren Galloway said:


> Even in livestock Culling only means taking to the sale barn, unless the animal is too sick or injured to do so.


That's what I thought he meant, you just don't see the term used very much with FT wash outs.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

http://www.predatormastersforums.com...1616725&page=2
http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=6506.35;wap2

in the houndsman's world - culling is killing. Killing dogs that do not make the cut. Not sure about sled dogs these days, I think most serious sled dog folks give away the dogs that are non competitive - but 'back in the day' culling was common practice...


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Tobias said:


> http://www.predatormastersforums.com...1616725&page=2
> http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=6506.35;wap2
> 
> in the houndsman's world - culling is killing. Killing dogs that do not make the cut. Not sure about sled dogs these days, I think most serious sled dog folks give away the dogs that are non competitive - but 'back in the day' culling was common practice...


Well you've successfully derailed the thread. Remember the question about the back command?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Agree that culling often equates to killing to lots of people, when it comes to dogs anyway. As in, back in the day, water bucket next to the whelping box type stuff. It doesn't have to mean killing of course, that's just the association to some, and we don't often use it with our dogs, particularly nowadays. Given Backwater/Schmadl's rhetoric, he is possibly using it to make himself sound that much more badazz. Pretty sure he knows in retriever world the term washout is generally more acceptable and understood. Or maybe he does mean kill the ones that don't break or seem to run fast enough for his taste. After all, he is from bear hounds, you know, and there is a bit of attrition rate running that game. I've seen bear hounds after bear encounters, you snooze, you lose. Even more so, if they come across some wolves, DNR keeps tabs of active kills on their website. I check it regularly so I know if any have infiltrated too close to home, and it's why I don't train in some areas, even where there is decent water accessible to the public. Hounds maybe need that sort of natural selection for their game, my Labs, not so much.

It is possible to have a stylish dog that loves its work, enjoys the game, is a joy to watch on blinds and marks, without that dog being a breaking/creeping/vocal maniac or doing the two-step at the line. I've got both "types" and I can say the former is the type most retriever owners should have in the blind and field, whether they admit it or not. Besides, I don't like dirt kicked in my face, ruins my hairdo and makeup, maybe even chips the nailpolish. Just bums my whole day when that happens. ;-)


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

captainjack said:


> Well you've successfully derailed the thread. Remember the question about the back command?


Until the OP comes back and fills in some blanks, how can anyone give any more useful advice than what's already been given? You said it with Lardy, etc, and probably came closest, along with John R., but there just isn't enough known where the OP is in training to do much more in that regard.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Until the OP comes back and fills in some blanks, how can anyone give any more useful advice than what's already been given? You said it with Lardy, etc, and probably came closest, along with John R., but there just isn't enough known where the OP is in training to do much more in that regard.


Well you two should start a separate thread on killing puppies. Stop derailing this one.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Rainmaker said:


> Agree that culling often equates to killing to lots of people, when it comes to dogs anyway. As in, back in the day, water bucket next to the whelping box type stuff. It doesn't have to mean killing of course, that's just the association to some, and we don't often use it with our dogs, particularly nowadays. Given Backwater/Schmadl's rhetoric, he is possibly using it to make himself sound that much more badazz. Pretty sure he knows in retriever world the term washout is generally more acceptable and understood. Or maybe he does mean kill the ones that don't break or seem to run fast enough for his taste. After all, he is from bear hounds, you know, and there is a bit of attrition rate running that game. I've seen bear hounds after bear encounters, you snooze, you lose. Even more so, if they come across some wolves, DNR keeps tabs of active kills on their website. I check it regularly so I know if any have infiltrated too close to home, and it's why I don't train in some areas, even where there is decent water accessible to the public. Hounds maybe need that sort of natural selection for their game, my Labs, not so much.
> 
> It is possible to have a stylish dog that loves its work, enjoys the game, is a joy to watch on blinds and marks, without that dog being a breaking/creeping/vocal maniac or doing the two-step at the line. I've got both "types" and I can say the former is the type most retriever owners should have in the blind and field, whether they admit it or not. Besides, I don't like dirt kicked in my face, ruins my hairdo and makeup, maybe even chips the nailpolish. Just bums my whole day when that happens. ;-)



Sure know you know everything, don't you? I am sure you never followed a pack of hounds, Perhaps, your rhetoric that you are THE only breeder that knows anything. I have certainly nothing to prove to you about being a badass. Houndmen know where I am coming from. They all do not make it, except yours that are for sale. You just love tp bash anyone who has a different opinion the yours don't you?

Of course your labs do not need "that natural" selections because you are the only breeder producer nothing but top dogs that never need culling. Most of us mere mortals do not. What I like is personal as with everyone else. Stop bashing others opinions as if you know everything.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

ErinsEdge said:


> So Backwater's real name is Schmadl.


Yes, my entire name is listed, I do not hide behind a screen name. Seems you have some issues with me. We can talk when we meet this summer sure we will be at some trial sometime as I get over to Wisconsin now and then. Nancy news for you, this like any other venture there are different opinions. Like others we will not all agree. No need to bash and make things personal.


Now, for you other bashers. I have had 4 labs in the last 7 years or so. Two I "culled" out. One of those sold to a guide and is now a guide dog doing very well. FC bred did not suit my style. The other FC sire with weak bitch line, my mistake was sold to hunter which loved the dog. The two listed here will die in my kennel of old age, they have nothing to prove to me, they are what I want both bought from the same FT guy which I thank to this day. 

I never attack personally anyone here, disagree sure, but do not make things personal which I believe are agenst the rules of this forum. 

Sorry but when Nancy P decides to bash me personally felt I needed to respond.


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## lorneparker1 (Mar 22, 2015)

I bet you are fun at parties


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Folks, let's get this thread back on track with the OP's issue.

Difference in opinions are not a problem, but personal attacks or backlash to other people's posts are not acceptable. If you have issues with another member of RTF, whether it be due to a difference of opinion or words used, please take it to PMs.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> What lack of obedience are you referring to? Dog heals, comes when called will stop on a dime at 400 yards, take the correct cast, does not break, he gets more amped up than I like with a cue of dead bird. Darrin you are a trainer you know darn well I could beat that out of him. You see it all the time in FT, derby dog is a rocket by the time they are a open dog they are much slower on everything. Their is a balance on what is acceptable to YOU....there is no perfect dog. What I would cull a dog for you may just love and vise versa. Long ago I watched Lottie at the Madison FT, that dog practically did a break dance on the line, would you say her obedience had holes as well? Think about it.


 You told the OP they had a hole in their program then equated a hole in yours to supposedly being a good trainer. Doesn't work that way. I don't say dead bird either or mark or half the stuff people say to their dog on the line. I more or less say sit, good and release the dog to work. Just my preference, nothing to do with my dog being so great or so we'll force fetched that he's not controllable. Just what I like to do and I don't talk down to or poorly about others for whatever they do. When someone asks for my help I find it goes much better if I offer them solutions rather than tell them how screwed up they are and how great I am.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

I think one of the problems the forum is having with Todd's comments is that one of the basic tenets of force based training is that the dog should understand HOW to get out of the pressure. Applying force to an already confused and unconfident dog is a recipe for disaster. 

The forum really doesn't know what steps or program the OP has used to arrive to this point of introduction of cold blinds, so if the OP would post that up, it'd be helpful. All we can assume is he's completed the standard progression of FF>FTP>TT>Pattern Blinds (yes, I know I left some steps out). 

In my experience, a dog that's ready to begin cold blinds should have had a few sight blinds and taught blinds before attempting any cold blinds. It can be as simple as having someone step out from behind a tree and dropping a bumper down while the dog watches. Then, take the dog off-line for a few seconds and come back and run the "blind" while your planter has hidden behind the tree. The dog knows there is "something" out there to retrieve without it being a simple destination like with pattern blinds. Some dogs quickly make the correlation...some don't. 

After the gap has been bridged, true cold blinds can be introduced while following the dog out. A short mown factorless field is ideal. Just try to get the proper cast in a go-stop-come scenario with attrition while building momentum. 

These are just my thoughts....YMMV


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## Falfa (Mar 11, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Yes, my entire name is listed, I do not hide behind a screen name. Seems you have some issues with me. We can talk when we meet this summer sure we will be at some trial sometime as I get over to Wisconsin now and then. Nancy news for you, this like any other venture there are different opinions. Like others we will not all agree. No need to bash and make things personal.
> 
> 
> Now, for you other bashers. I have had 4 labs in the last 7 years or so. Two I "culled" out. One of those sold to a guide and is now a guide dog doing very well. FC bred did not suit my style. The other FC sire with weak bitch line, my mistake was sold to hunter which loved the dog. The two listed here will die in my kennel of old age, they have nothing to prove to me, they are what I want both bought from the same FT guy which I thank to this day.
> ...


i

hey TODD. If you never hide behind a screen name, what do you call your 127 posts as "Backwater"? I call it hiding behind a screen name. 

Maybe you should check your prior post TODD. You wrote that you never make it personal, but you just took a personal shot at Kim. 

We we all know that your dogs from John Stracka are amazing. We have read your dozens of posts about your bear dogs. TODD you have shown that you can dish it out. But when you get challenged, you turn into the very whiney wimp puppy rolling over and peeing on his belly that you so love to cull. You brag about your dogs kicking dirt but you act like the fear-biting cull candidate on here. 

How about if you try to be truly helpful to newbies instead of piling on and telling them how tough you and your Ranger dogs are?

me and my real name? If i follow your standard, I get another 100 more posts to use my screen name. Then maybe I'll make a new account with a new name.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

KNorman said:


> I think one of the problems the forum is having with Todd's comments is that one of the basic tenets of force based training is that the dog should understand HOW to get out of the pressure. Applying force to an already confused and unconfident dog is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> This was my exact point. I stated many times, was a hound guy, retrievers very different. My hound man attitude will be with me forever. Hound people do not tolerate mediocre dogs. They have very high standards, dogs that do not cut are culled out, use your own definition of culling.
> 
> ...


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wow, you just keep digging deeper and deeper. Hound people don't tolarate mediocre dogs, makes it sound like retriever people do. Top pros and amateurs don't post on RTF? Most pros, good or bad, don't post here because there aren't enough hours in the day to train dogs, run a kennel then do an Internet thing, but there are a number of top amateurs who do post here.

I get it that you insist on having a high drive retriever with no quit, guess what? So do 90% of the rest of us, but we also need much more, so quit with the better than thou attitude. Jeesh!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

John, really I think in cases like this, where someone continually spouts off how amped up their dogs are and how much dirt they can kick back when they hear 'dead bird' or some other release command is simply peeved or frustrated that they can't get their dogs trained up well enough to be under control for national type hunt test competitions.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sooner or later you'll find that whomever is in the judge's chair at an event you're running has read your posts. I actually went to a job interview once and the people knew me from my postings here. 

At this point in my career I wouldn't care about someone's predisposition, although there are one or two around who feel free to make snarky comments when they see me at events. That's their own weakness showing though, so I ignore it. 

Meanwhile if you're relatively new to the sport don't be surprised if someone is reading your post forming an opinion that may then get projected onto your dog in a test.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Human nature being what it is notwithstanding, I promise you that when I'm in the judges chair, I'm rooting for and judging the dog, regardless how I feel about the handler.

Ps, I've had a few RTF run ins with certain posters over the years, then met them at a trial or training and really liked them.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

John Robinson said:


> Human nature being what it is notwithstanding, I promise you that when I'm in the judges chair, I'm rooting for and judging the dog, regardless how I feel about the handler.
> 
> Ps, I've had a few RTF run ins with certain posters over the years, then met them at a trial or training and really liked them.


I would expect no less from you John but human nature being what it is... 

I got the job I interviewed for so it can't be all that bad but I imagine... it could be


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