# What's the Point, Part 2



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Many dogs are trained and handled to a qualifying 1st or 2nd by a pro.

Every time I think about entering a Qual I look and see the Pros entered and think why brother.


The biggest battle cry one constantly hears about FT's is "getting new/young people invloved". The 2 quotes above come from the original "What's the point" thread. In my opinion, the 2 quotes above say a lot about that "cry" for new blood. 

I respect the young dog trainers who run the minor stakes, please don't get me wrong, but I just don't understand why, as an owner, you would do this. The only reason that comes to mind is that the trial is in the South for a northern owner or the North for a southern owner. 

Is there pressure when you run a minor stake? As a new owner/young blood to the sport you bet there is. However, there isn't a better place in the FT game to get your feet underneath you and gain control of your emotions than the minor stakes. 

Don't sit on the side lines any longer. Get out there and play the game. Have fun, have failures as well that will make those successes all the more sweeter!!


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Hard to hit the ball if ya don't swing the bat, spot on Wade.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Not that I'm keeping score, but almost every placement I have had with my dogs, whether derby, qual or all age has been with me handling. The dedicated amateur with a talented dog has some advantages over a pro such as that team bonding thing, I wouldn't automatically assume you are at any disadvantage running against pros.

John


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

I've seen plenty of pros place behind amateurs in the minors. Even by newbies to field trials trying out their MH in the FT game.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

While that might be true, when an AM looks at the field and sees 1/3 to 1/2 the dogs pro handled (and getting 2-3 bites at the apple so to speak), it's a little overwhelming.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

To the OP's question... Years ago I had a dog that won a Q as a derby dog. He was by no way, shape or form ready for all-age stakes. The following season I ran him in the Q and all-age. That year he finished all 6 Q's without ever winning one and spent most of the season going out on the land marks or land blind in the all- age. By the following year, he was placing in all-age stakes. He was 3 1/2 then. No way he would have benefitted from being pulled from the Q after that win as a derby dog. 

That particular dog needed the work and confidence of going 4 series in a trial situation more than he or I needed the beating of being up with the big dogs every week at that stage of his career.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Another reason for a pro to run a dog in the "Q" is to place 1st or 2nd to be able for it to run one of the more restricted AA stakes.

QAA regards

john


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

I totally agree. Can't place if you don't play. While I train with a pro and have sent my dog on to the pro on short spurts, i.e. less than 4 months, only a couple of times I've done a lot on my own (with oversight). I've been able to finish 9 of 15 quals, with 2 firsts in that group. I've since been running all age and have a 1st and 2nd under my belt with a couple of jams. I was willing to run Q's to gain experience and get a feel for the type of competition I'd be facing. I'm here to tell you, nothing and I mean NOTHING feels better than to finish and place especially when the competition is tough. Is it easy?, no way, was it tough, absolutely but I love every minute of it and can't wait to get going again. Every time you go to the line it is a learning experience you can't duplicate in training.


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## g_fiebelkorn (Jul 31, 2006)

Raymond Little said:


> Hard to hit the ball if ya don't swing the bat, spot on Wade.


Or as Wayne Gretsky might say “You will not place in 100% of the trials you do not enter.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

I'm one of those Amateurs, nearly full blooded Amateur trained dog (only spent 1 winter down south) and the remainder all under my hand. He's never failed a Master test and in the past year and a half, we've placed or jammed every qualifying but one. Ran a couple Am's and didn't make it out of the first a couple times and was 1 cast away from making it to the 4th. I find it incredibly rewarding for what we've done considering the circumstances as well as this dog being my first competitive dog in trials.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> While that might be true, when an AM looks at the field and sees 1/3 to 1/2 the dogs pro handled (and getting 2-3 bites at the apple so to speak), it's a little overwhelming.



But, oh so sweet when you win, especially in the Open!


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> But, oh so sweet when you win, especially in the Open!



X 2 what he said.....

Oh so sweet when that local kid beats the best!!


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

So why should one enter a FT, if most likely you are gone in the first series. might as well spend the money on a hunting trip, dog gets more flyers, and doesn't get dropped. 

its simple, if you want more "players" you gotta let them play ! I doesn't take away anything from the dogs that place to let the newbees play. It is better for ALL. "You can't get your feet wet, if you don't make it to the water series."


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## counciloak (Mar 26, 2008)

The pros generally have very young dogs. If you are a good student of the game, then your older dog should have much success.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

The purpose of a trial is to find a winner. NOTHING more. The judges just have to find a winner. They are not even obligated to give away any other placements. There is no obligation to "let you play" dogs no longer "in contention" should be dropped.

The reason for the trial is to evalute under a standard set of test which retriever best displays the working traits and qualities we would want to see in breeding stock.

So unless you wish to prove the merits of a retriever as potential breeding stock. Can accept the fact that the purpose of the event is to find the dog most capable on that weekend on those tests, run the trial. If NOT go hunting. That's really the short and simple of it. Once upon a time there were no hunt tests, no dock jumping, no SRS, no national pheasant open, no nothing but a AKC or a CKC Field Trial. 

Personally I would like to go hunting. Not because of not playing, not winning or any other reason than for the most part I'm an introvert who enjoys being alone with my dog(s) and sleeping in my own bed rather than being at a trial.

Not intended as "RIP" just different perspective.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

So why don't more owners run the dogs instead of their pros?? derby thru opens? Randy


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Randy Bohn said:


> So why don't more owners run the dogs instead of their pros?? derby thru opens? Randy


That is my point Randy, EXACTLY. When you have nearly 60 dogs in the 2 minor stakes at a given trial and roughly 45-50 are handled by Pro's I think it speaks volumes to the battle cry of " new young people". If people aren't willing to run their own dogs when ever possible in those minor stakes what's the point? Where is the enjoyment of sitting on the sidelines watching when you could be on the field playing.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Brokengunz said:


> So why should one enter a FT, if most likely you are gone in the first series. might as well spend the money on a hunting trip, dog gets more flyers, and doesn't get dropped.
> 
> its simple, if you want more "players" you gotta let them play ! I doesn't take away anything from the dogs that place to let the newbees play. It is better for ALL. "You can't get your feet wet, if you don't make it to the water series."


You cant let them play if they don't pick up the chickens. Most Quals I judge or have watched are very generous with call backs. That being said if a new handler has the attitude they cant play with the pros they are beat before they come to the line. 

My fondest FT memory so far is beating Farmer and Rorem in an open when they each had 6 bullets in the 4th. Talk about a rush. Also they other Am's at that trial went crazy with congrats at the news. Even some that I beat out their pro handled dog. 

So get out there and just do it.

ps. Are not the majority of dogs in a master stake pro handled?


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Wade said:


> That is my point Randy, EXACTLY. When you have nearly 60 dogs in the 2 minor stakes at a given trial and roughly 45-50 are handled by Pro's I think it speaks volumes to the battle cry of " new young people". If people aren't willing to run their own dogs when ever possible in those minor stakes what's the point? Where is the enjoyment of sitting on the sidelines watching when you could be on the field playing.


What would your advice be for someone who: 1) does not have appropriate training grounds for maybe 150 miles 2) wants to train/handle entirely on his own, no pro involved? I believe that here are quite a few who fit into this category.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> What would your advice be for someone who: 1) does not have appropriate training grounds for maybe 150 miles 2) wants to train/handle entirely on his own, no pro involved? I believe that here are quite a few who fit into this category.


First get to those 150 mile away grounds as often as possible. Second get in with a good Am group. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know. I speak from experience on that subject. Next don't hate pros, if you have a good one close and can day train or just pick their brain do 

The main thing is train smarter, learn what you and your dog are lacking and train for that. Most important, HAVE FUN!


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Sounds like great advice. I think the real problem is that for many it is not easy. Problems with time, distance, and money make it difficult for many.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think the first step, is you have to realistically have the dog.

That takes Time and money commitment.

With the pup I have right now, I am devoting as much time as I possibly can with the dog. I train every day,following assignments for homework I recieve from a Pro I visit once a week.

The training ground I have during the week is Pathetic, but I can get things done. Idont have folks to throw for me on a regular basis. I have remote wingers I use instead.

Now, with all that said,, I am a realist also.. I am a Horrible handler. Idont think well underpressure, I know my limitations.

As a handler, I dont think I can step onto the field, and compeate with a Pro that has the experience of training and running dogs all the time.

I love football. I played some in High school. I am a small man with little hands, smell like cabbage!
I would be a fool to think I could be a Pro Player..


My Goal is to have a well trained dog..
Gooser


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

MooseGooser

You set your goals and you achieve them. That is success.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

And,,, I am very thakful for the people who DO run and campain dogs, and the organization that gives them the chance.

It gives us all a very good availability of dogs to choose from when we are ready for that next project.

Gooser agin


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Gooser is correct you have to have a dog that is able to play at the FT level. After that its a matter of how bad do you want it. It takes some sacrifice to be competitive for most of us at the top level of retriever games. So gdgnyc, take a hard look at your goals then get about doing them. I don't know your situation just know that it can be done. When you get that blue ribbon its the best feeling in the world at that moment.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

I played the game as an amateur for a lot of years.

The expense is horrible, but the real killer if you want to be competitive as an Amateur is the time commitment for training. Not many can give up 2 hours a day without making family sacrifices.


I think Field trials should have a buy in like a country club, or an age requirement to keep young families away.


Don


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

gdgnyc said:


> MooseGooser
> 
> You set your goals and you achieve them. That is success.


Thats the way i look at it..
Its like dieting,,,, You have to set reasonable goals to be successful,, otherwise its not very gratifying to see rewards that are not what you expect, for the amount of work you put in.

I love my dogs, I love the time with them. IF,, at a training day, Cherylon tells me I have done something REALLY well,, I will know She absolutly means it..
Thats my ribbon..

When I get a chance to take this dog hunting, and I accept an invite from Mr Jobman to come hunt with him on his Big North Platte river,, and Flinch sits well and retrieves birds, runs blinds, and shows that Mr Jobman,, the puppy he sold me is in good hands,,, I will be beside myself..

Gooser


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Now, with all that said,, I am a realist also.. I am a Horrible handler. Idont think well underpressure, I know my limitations.


Mike

I really get tired of hearing you say this. Frankly, I think that it is - for you (and others that I have seen over the years)

a) An attention getting device; and
b) A way to excuse poor performance

​Ted


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Mike
> 
> I really get tired of hearing you say this. Frankly, I think that it is - for you (and others that I have seen over the years)
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more Ted. I think Mike might have said it earlier, if you keep telling yourself you can't beat the Pro's you never will.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I have seen Mike handle. He is by no means a great handler, but neither is he as poor as he claims. I think he needs to ditch the broken record, and put a new one on the player. It is my observation that when he sets his mind to something, he improves at it.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I am getting ready to step into FT's and it is *intimidating* for the Am that trains their own dog~100%. Thankfully I have some very good mentors and good support, that said I'm the one who has to make the committment to improve my handling, improve my training, be efficient and continue to learn. I, for one, am grateful for the minor stakes.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

keep poor mouthin' gooser, we know you're gonna whip them free ridin' dogs at ms loveland's place one saturday soon!;-)


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I have seen Mike handle. He is by no means a great handler, but neither is he as poor as he claims. I think he needs to ditch the broken record, and put a new one on the player. It is my observation that when he sets his mind to something, he improves at it.


And I totally agree too - first time Mike joined the group I wasn't sure if he knew which end to point toward the birds  but now I think he just might know! 

Mike listen to Ted - put on a different record....this one is getting old!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

DL said to me many years ago - get a mirror - full length - practice in front of that mirror - what you see is what the dog sees . Go to an OB show & watch the handlers, they are probably as a group close to the best, but they don't have the kind of dog we need to run field trials. Then watch the good pro's & some amateurs. You will improve. Never make an excuse, only strive to get better . But it helps to have a good dog beside you .


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

roseberry said:


> keep poor mouthin' gooser, we know you're gonna whip them free ridin' dogs at ms loveland's place one saturday soon!;-)



I don't need to bad mouth Mike, he does a good enough job of doing it himself


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## 8mmag (Jan 1, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> I think the first step, is you have to realistically have the dog.
> 
> That takes Time and money commitment.
> 
> ...



Gooser, I've been on here long enough to have seen this from you before too. 

When I joined this forum I was JUST LIKE YOU. In many ways I probably still am. But, I did take my pup to the line in the Derby, got my arse handed to me a few times by both pros and am's alike. Training buddies said they could see me shaking, told me I could start breathing again afterward, etc. Gettin' my arse handed to me a few times was the best thing that ever happened to me in FT's. It didn't make me wanna give up, it made me more determined to succeed. I worked harder, found more training partners, learned, improved my dog. Now I'm a 4x 'veteran' of the Amateur stakes...still intimidating, yes. Am I a good handler...no. Can I get better...yes, and I am determined to do so. Trust me, if I can do it, you can do it.

Seems like I saw where you wrote on here once about wanting to beat Ted. Sounds like a goal to me. What is your first step going to be?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Poor Gooser, I bet when he crawled out of bed this morning he had no idea he was to be today's Internet football..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

8mmag said:


> Gooser, I've been on here long enough to have seen this from you before too.
> 
> When I joined this forum I was JUST LIKE YOU. In many ways I probably still am. But, I did take my pup to the line in the Derby, got my arse handed to me a few times by both pros and am's alike. Training buddies said they could see me shaking, told me I could start breathing again afterward, etc. Gettin' my arse handed to me a few times was the best thing that ever happened to me in FT's. It didn't make me wanna give up, it made me more determined to succeed. I worked harder, found more training partners, learned, improved my dog. Now I'm a 4x 'veteran' of the Amateur stakes...still intimidating, yes. Am I a good handler...no. Can I get better...yes, and I am determined to do so. Trust me, if I can do it, you can do it.
> 
> Seems like I saw where you wrote on here once about wanting to beat Ted. Sounds like a goal to me. *What is your first step going to be?*






My first step, is getting a well trained dog.. I have my hands FULL!!!!!!!!! I'm not going to look forward to next weeks game... I have to concentrate very hard, on what Homework I have been given for the week..

When I get that well trained dog,, we will see what happens..

Lainee.... Do you remember last weekend and ROBO arm....??????

I was told to work on steady,, and the hand,,, and running my first blinds... EVERYDAY... Thats alll I am thinkin about..

I cannot believe I have so much trouble learning a routine, and dropping my hand in front of the dog... But as of today,, I think I have it..

I will beat Ted someday!!,,, Lainee Too,, Maontenrarieee too or how ever Ya spell it,,, Even that other guy with the clean truck..

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

EdA said:


> Poor Gooser, I bet when he crawled out of bed this morning he had no idea he was to be today's Internet football..



HAHAHAHA!!!!! Whats weird,,, I actually like it.!!!


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

EdA said:


> Poor Gooser, I bet when he crawled out of bed this morning he had no idea he was to be today's Internet football..


"Poor Gooser" are you kidding, you all are making the goosers day! Probably spend all evening playing with bubbles.


My question though is, why in the world would you want to change anything about the gooser? Be like trying to improve on Halle Berry!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Lainee.... Do you remember last weekend and ROBO arm....??????


And your point? I'm gonna throw my husband under the bus for a few - he can't seem to put his hand in and leave it, he can't decide whether to push or pull or both why Tango is sitting there thinking "WTH?" And he has handled his dog in the Derby and Bullet in AA stakes (got his first AA ribbon this past year, too).

Sorry but you aren't they only one that has issues handling - just the other day I was asked by someone "You need training to handle dogs?" Yeah I do and so do you....it's okay because we are learning, we make mistakes, we repeat mistakes over and over again - I seem to recall getting my rear end chewed for not lining up a dog correctly, of not pulling enough, etc. more than once, heck more than a hundred times!!! You know what is the best way to have a handling mistake identified and to remember not to make it again? When the judges groan very loudly about the same time you are smacking yourself on the forehead for yelling back on the point when you should of given a silent over (don't ask, stupid handler)....

Come on now, aim for the stars...we all walked to the line for the first time and wanted to puke our guts out....you learn after a while to throw up before getting to the line!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> [/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The one HUGE advantage you have over a lot of other amateurs around the country is that you a part of a very-very good training group. Just between Lainee and Ted you are ahead of the game, then add Cherylon to the picture and you are training at a University level. It sound like you are dedicated but nervous. The nerves may never go away completely, but they will lessen as good handling habits take root, and you find yourself doing all the subtle things on line without thinking about it.

John


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

John Robinson said:


> The one HUGE advantage you have over a lot of other amateurs around the country is that you a part of a very-very good training group. Just between Lainee and Ted you are ahead of the game, then add Cherylon to the picture and you are training at a University level. It sound like you are dedicated but nervous. The nerves may never go away completely, but they will lessen as good handling habits take root, and you find yourself doing all the subtle things on line without thinking about it.
> 
> John



I agree. We have an excellent training group and a varied amount of experience. Everyone there cheers our group when things go right, a little bit of ribbing when they don't. Honestly, I've learned so much just being with this group that I want to go back everyday. Nobody minds doing their part and I would say that everyone in that group has a little piece of any success of all the dogs because we all contribute in some fashion. Our pack leader, Cherylon, keeps us on the straight and narrow, challenges us about multiple facets of the game and tries to make us better every session. Good people, good dogs and good times. Thats the point for me and I can't think of a better way to spend my time than doing what I am passionate about.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

What would be nice to see is more amateurs running their dogs in the Minor stakes. Someone said earlier, I think it was Ted or Mike, you can run the Q till your heart is content or 2 wins which ever comes first but run the dog yourself. A lot of people out here would rather see Amateurs running their own dogs rather than a Pro.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wade said:


> What would be nice to see is more amateurs running their dogs in the Minor stakes. Someone said earlier, I think it was Ted or Mike, you can run the Q till your heart is content or 2 wins which ever comes first but run the dog yourself. A lot of people out here would rather see Amateurs running their own dogs rather than a Pro.


I could care less what others do with their dogs, personally I prefer to run my own dog minor and major stakes, but that's just me. As far as competition I don't see much difference between Larry Calvert, Linda Harger, Judy Rasmussen or any of another bunch of good amateurs their great dogs and most of the pros I run against, they are all very, very good and are very hard to beat.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

John Robinson said:


> I could care less what others do with their dogs, personally I prefer to run my own dog minor and major stakes, but that's just me.


Isn't that the point though John. People keep talking about bringing new people into the sport. If you bring those people in and all they do is have a Pro run their dog, WHAT'S THE POINT?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I would prefer to see more Amateurs because I think the more Ams you have involved in the sport - who are excited about the sport, the better


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wade said:


> Isn't that the point though John. People keep talking about bringing new people into the sport. If you bring those people in and all they do is have a Pro run their dog, WHAT'S THE POINT?


If you are talking about introducing new people and hooking them, I agree its nice when a new to the sport handler runs his or her own dog and has success. The minor stakes are very fun, a little easier from a handling aspect, but still quite challenging. I remember placing first and third in the same qual one time, that was definitely a big rush.

John


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

As a Devil's advocate for a moment . . . .

I think we would all agree that the first requirement is a dog who can be a competitive FT dog. I think we would also agree that the best way to go about this is to acquire such a dog at a cost of somewhere around $2000. Then, for most of us, the dog would go to a pro to determine if it in fact was a competitive FT dog. At least 6 months at somewhere between $700 - $1000 a month, or another $4200 - $6000. This does not count food, vet bills, etc.

Now, with all that money and expertise having gone into the dog and its training, why would I handle it? 

Put another way, could I take Jimmie Johnson's race car and get the same or better results than Jimmie? With the same exact car? Racing against other NASCAR drivers?

It's possible that I could outrace those guys, but not very likely.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

RookieTrainer said:


> As a Devil's advocate for a moment . . . .
> 
> I think we would all agree that the first requirement is a dog who can be a competitive FT dog. I think we would also agree that the best way to go about this is to acquire such a dog at a cost of somewhere around $2000. Then, for most of us, the dog would go to a pro to determine if it in fact was a competitive FT dog. At least 6 months at somewhere between $700 - $1000 a month, or another $4200 - $6000. This does not count food, vet bills, etc.
> 
> ...


Don't get into the sport then is what I would say. Again, What's the point if you are not going to run your own dog. Where is the pleasure in having someone compete with your dog?

I'm not saying don't use a pro, there is nothing wrong with having them take the dog and train it for a few months. However, to sit on the side lines while the game is being played isn't fun at all. How does one get enjoyment from that?


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> As a Devil's advocate for a moment . . . .
> 
> I think we would all agree that the first requirement is a dog who can be a competitive FT dog. I think we would also agree that the best way to go about this is to acquire such a dog at a cost of somewhere around $2000. Then, for most of us, the dog would go to a pro to determine if it in fact was a competitive FT dog. At least 6 months at somewhere between $700 - $1000 a month, or another $4200 - $6000. This does not count food, vet bills, etc.
> 
> ...


It depends on whether you are thinking long or short term. If you are thinking short term, maybe want to get on the derby list and or get as many derby points as possible, then have your pro run the dog in the derby. If you want to become a better all age handler, develop as a team with your dog and have success in the all age when the dog is five or six, then get as much time on line as possible when you have a better chance of going four series.

John


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wade said:


> Don't get into the sport then is what I would say. Again, What's the point if you are not going to run your own dog. Where is the pleasure in having someone compete with your dog?
> 
> I'm not saying don't use a pro, there is nothing wrong with having them take the dog and train it for a few months. However, to sit on the side lines while the game is being played isn't fun at all. How does one get enjoyment from that?


Wade, there are many people (I'm not one of them), that get a lot of pleasure just owning a successful dog. I imagine this is similar to the way a race horse owner feels about their horse.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

John Montenieri said:


> I agree. We have an excellent training group and a varied amount of experience. Everyone there cheers our group when things go right, a little bit of ribbing when they don't.


What almost no one outside the group knows is that the group collectively cheer for each other and view individual accomplishment as a group accomplishment which is very very refreshing in today's "me" world. This was Holland's first summer in his young life away from CO and the training group yet he/I received, privately or publicly, congratulations from everyone in the group for him being a Finalist. As one person told me we all cheered when we heard the news because "he is one of our team".

How cool is that?


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

John Robinson said:


> Wade, there are many people (I'm not one of them), that get a lot of pleasure just owning a successful dog. I imagine this is similar to the way a race horse owner feels about their horse.


John, I didn't mean to sound harsh there. I just think that if you can run your dog run your dog. The Minors are a great place for new people to do that.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

EdA said:


> What almost no one outside the group knows is that the group collectively cheer for each other and view individual accomplishment as a group accomplishment which is very very refreshing in today's "me" world. This was Holland's first summer in his young life away from CO and the training group yet he/I received, privately or publicly, congratulations from everyone in the group for him being a Finalist. As one person told me we all cheered when we heard the news because "he is one of our team".
> 
> How cool is that?


Pretty neat Ed. pretty neat!!


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## 8mmag (Jan 1, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> I will beat Ted someday!!,,, Lainee Too,, Maontenrarieee too or how ever Ya spell it,,, Even that other guy with the clean truck..


Ahhh, got the fire lit now...





MooseGooser said:


> My first step, is getting a well trained dog.. I have my hands FULL!!!!!!!!! I'm not going to look forward to next weeks game... I have to concentrate very hard, on what Homework I have been given for the week..
> 
> When I get that well trained dog,, we will see what happens..
> 
> Gooser



Now you have both a *goal* *AND a plan! * As you work toward getting that well trained dawg, there are two other things you can work on simultaneously that will help that well trained dawg succeed. Your handling skills and becoming a team with with yer dawg.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I hear you, and I think you are at least partially right. 

However, not included in the above calculations is the cost of the time off from work to train and trial. If I am not at my desk, I am not making money.

In the short term or the long term, it would be light years more economically efficient for me to specialize in my business and let an FT pro specialize in his. I pay to have my grass cut because I can use the 2 hours it would take me to do it to make much more money than it costs me. Same principle would apply here. Why would I not extend it on to handling the dog? And don't forget that I would likely not even be considered for a pup from a really good breeding without a commitment to send the pup to a really good trainer for about a year. 

Let me also say that I do not have an FT dog, likely will not have one, and probably don't want one precisely because of the reasons cited above. I don't think I would ever have time to get good enough as a handler to do a talented dog real justice, mainly because I have other things I like to do too (Alabama football games, anyone?), and I am not sure I could just be a dog owner with the dog spending nearly all his time with a pro. 



John Robinson said:


> It depends on whether you are thinking long or short term. If you are thinking short term, maybe want to get on the derby list and or get as many derby points as possible, then have your pro run the dog in the derby. If you want to become a better all age handler, develop as a team with your dog and have success in the all age when the dog is five or six, then get as much time on line as possible when you have a better chance of going four series.
> 
> John


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Wade said:


> John, I didn't mean to sound harsh there. I just think that if you can run your dog run your dog. The Minors are a great place for new people to do that.


I agree with you, but that doesn't mean that those folks who don't run their dog for whatever reason are wrong. Kind of on the same note I was fortunate to have learned under a pro, Eric Fangsrud, who coaches and encourages his handlers from early on to run their own dogs, not all pros are like that. I think for the most part, folks who don't run their own dog are a bit, ok very intimidated and are afraid to stand out there for all to see on line. If I could talk to them I would try to calm them and encourage them to take that big step to the line, though some people are better under pressure than others. I certainly don't hold it against them if they don't feel up to it.

John


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

RookieTrainer said:


> I hear you, and I think you are at least partially right.
> 
> However, not included in the above calculations is the cost of the time off from work to train and trial. If I am not at my desk, I am not making money.
> 
> ...


OK there's another reason for not handling your own dog, I get that. There are many times I miss all the fishing, hiking, flying, sailing, you-name-it I used to do before becoming obsessed with dog training and trialing. It is a huge sacrifice. If you just want a well trained dog that gets quality work year around and don't want to sacrifice other things including work, football or family, hiring a pro is pefectly legit, not that you need anybody's approval.

For those of us who are obsessed, we are obviously not thinking this through in economical terms, I'd put a bullit in my head if I did that.
John


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Who cares? Everyone has a choice to run or not run their dog as they see fit. I know what I prefer but don't lose sleep over another's choice.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

kjrice said:


> Who cares? Everyone has a choice to run or not run their dog as they see fit. I know what I prefer but don't lose sleep over another's choice.




There is plenty of room for everybody to play.



The trick going forward, is having enough players......... So everybody can play.


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

I donno about your area of the country, but TX/MN has plenty of players. Big entries, regards.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Jacob Hawkes said:


> I donno about your area of the country, but TX/MN has plenty of players. Big entries, regards.


That's a good thing.

I think the OP and others were talking about bringing new/younger folks to the FT game.



How many of those TX/MN players are under 50????


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

RookieTrainer said:


> Let me also say that I do not have an FT dog, likely will not have one, and probably don't want one precisely because of the reasons cited above. I don't think I would ever have time to get good enough as a handler to do a talented dog real justice, mainly because I have other things I like to do too (Alabama football games, anyone?), and I am not sure I could just be a dog owner with the dog spending nearly all his time with a pro.



Nothing worth accomplishing is easy or comes without sacrifice.

It is difficult to win, place, or finish - IF

1. The dog is not sufficiently talent
2. The dog is not sufficiently trained
3. The handler is not sufficiently trained and competent


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Rnd said:


> That's a good thing.
> 
> I think the OP and others were talking about bringing new/younger folks to the FT game.
> 
> ...


not as many as there were last year, most of them have had a birthday 

most of us weren't brought to field trials we came voluntarily and no one checked our date of birth..

For whatever it's worth I started in field trials at 28


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## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

Rnd said:


> That's a good thing.
> 
> I think the OP and others were talking about bringing new/younger folks to the FT game.
> 
> ...


I'm 31. There are a few early 30s. Some late 20s.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

Rnd said:


> That's a good thing.
> 
> *I think the OP and others were talking about bringing new/younger folks to the FT game.*
> 
> ...


The OP's main post was about owners not handling. 

As far as new blood, those that have the resources and want to play will find a way.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

wade,
there are lots of ways to skin a cat. for some folks it seems to be "all about the dog". these folk want their dog to reach its highest potenetial and they do what is necessary to ensure the dog has the best of everything in professional training, handling and events schedules. they sometimes go and watch sitting in a nice folding chair. they attain great satisfaction that the breeding they performed or purchased a pup from turned out a nice dog. they remember the puppy work and basics they performed while interviewing pros to determine which would seem to suit their dog best. all their avilable resouces go into the development of the dog.

for others it seems "it's more about me". i trained this dog. i am part of a great training group. i handled this dog. i spent the time necessary to campaign this dog. i beat this pro or that pro with my dog. they get great rewards when all their available resources go into development of the dog.

i am new to field trialing but not new to dogs. i train and handle my own pups sometimes. sometimes i sit in a nice folding chair. sometimes i look on rtf results to see what happened. 

but if i imagine my best ft day ever, i would be sitting in my chair on a cool autumn day in the gallery. and someone interupts my talking dogs with a guy like say??? mac dubose or dr.ed and says, "hey your dog just won the open!"

as long as i got a good chair, whats wrong with that?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Just talking my situation:

Dog is just turned 1yr old. Just out of the yard.
I am very happy with her progress,and I believe because of the Pro, my foundation work is more solid than any dog I have had previously.

Sho just ran her first set of land blinds lat week.
She hasn't had any water blind work.
very little in the way of big water marks.

For me to sit back and say my Goal is to run major stakes in FT, seems silly to me.

To much can happen in the future. Dog could get hurt.
Her water work may be less than stellar.
There may be all kinds of stuff down the road.
I,m just focusing on today,and trying to get better.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

roseberry said:


> wade,
> there are lots of ways to skin a cat. for some folks it seems to be "all about the dog". these folk want their dog to reach its highest potenetial and they do what is necessary to ensure the dog has the best of everything in professional training, handling and events schedules. they sometimes go and watch sitting in a nice folding chair. they attain great satisfaction that the breeding they performed or purchased a pup from turned out a nice dog. they remember the puppy work and basics they performed while interviewing pros to determine which would seem to suit their dog best. all their avilable resouces go into the development of the dog.
> 
> for others it seems "it's more about me". i trained this dog. i am part of a great training group. i handled this dog. i spent the time necessary to campaign this dog. i beat this pro or that pro with my dog. they get great rewards when all their available resources go into development of the dog.
> ...


Don't kid yourself. Dogs don't know if they are champions or not. It's always about what the owner wants. Hopefully the dogs are suited to what they are doing and hopefully they have a fair trainer - and therefore end up having fun living the owner's dream


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Just talking my situation:
> 
> Dog is just turned 1yr old. Just out of the yard.
> I am very happy with her progress,and I believe because of the Pro, my foundation work is more solid than any dog I have had previously.
> ...


I think your goal should be to run and win a Qual! That's just me...I'll be running riot soon enough (assuming he makes it)...so bring it on chicken wing!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think a realist goal for me (if I have to have one)
is to have a SOLID Master hunter,, and be able to seriously run aQual


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> I think a realist goal for me (if I have to have one)
> is to have a SOLID Master hunter,, and be able to seriously run aQual


That sound good to. 

How about running a couple derbies? They are a lot of fun and there is not much pressure on the handler as all you have to do is point and shoot.

John


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> That sound good to.
> 
> How about running a couple derbies? They are a lot of fun and there is not much pressure on the handler as all you have to do is point and shoot.
> 
> John



I dont think She will be ready..

It will depend greatly as to what happens this next spring..

I will have a TON of water work to get under our belt..

She wont see Swim By till prolly April or may..

Will age out in Late november..


I also think It would be a HUGE thrill, to sit on a bucket next to Chris Jobman at the Grand,,, but againn thats alll perty lofty for Gooser.

So,, that All know I broke threw away my broken record...... GRHRCH,, MH,, QAA.... Hows that???

If that were to happpen,,, Gooser will have a HUGE head on his shoulders!!!


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I think a realist goal for me (if I have to have one)
> is to have a SOLID Master hunter,, and be able to seriously run aQual


To low a goal Gooser.

Don't think of your training as ending at the Q level. Think of the Q as only a mid level stepping stone to a finished retriever. The MH Q level might seem hard but it really isn't.

If you limit your aspirations to having a Q level dog, that's what you'll wind up with. Aspire to have an FC/AFC and train to that standard. It could very well be that your dog can only do Q level work but it won't be because it wasn't trained and held to a higher standard, it'll be because that's what the dog could do.

Believe me, when you finish your first all age it'll be damn near as good as sex and when you win one.... Well, not really better if I recall correctly.


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## 8mmag (Jan 1, 2010)

Howard N said:


> To low a goal Gooser.
> 
> Don't think of your training as ending at the Q level. Think of the Q as only a mid level stepping stone to a finished retriever. The MH Q level might seem hard but it really isn't.
> 
> ...


I'm with Howard on this one, and I bet Ted is too.

Baby steps...a Derby or two is a great start but ya gotta take that first step if yer gonna git there.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

My mother encouraged me to dream big and told me when I was very young that I could succeed at whatever I set my mind to accomplish. To my regret on some occasions, but mostly to my satisfaction, I believed what she taught me. 

When I began my field trial career with Zowie (later FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie), I told my pro, Cherylon Loveland, that my goal was to be a finalist in the National Amateur. 

At the time, I had yet to run my first derby, and I had never been to a National. I had no idea what I was aspiring to accomplish. Since then I have had two finalists in the National Amateur Retriever Championship.

My goal now is to win one.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Wade said:


> Many dogs are trained and handled to a qualifying 1st or 2nd by a pro.
> 
> Every time I think about entering a Qual I look and see the Pros entered and think why brother.
> 
> ...


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Howard N said:


> To low a goal Gooser.
> 
> Don't think of your training as ending at the Q level. Think of the Q as only a mid level stepping stone to a finished retriever. The MH Q level might seem hard but it really isn't.
> 
> ...


Howard, I remember your first Open win with Banjo like it was yesterday... I'll never forget it...


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Gooser, I think I know what you need! You need a Chocolate Lab that understands YOU! I had one, Gator Point's Georgia Brown, that made ME look like a handler. At one hunt test I tried my best to get the dog to go a certain way until one of the judges said, "Leave the dog alone" and she picked up the bird. When I came to the water series that same judge said, "Why don't you let the dog shoot the gun too, she's done every thing else for you?" Those brown dogs have been good to me, try one some time, Chocolate is sweet. Bill


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Gooser, I have long gone by a saying I heard once...."If you think you can or you think you can't, you are right!" The dog I now own, I bought thinking I could have a gun dog for hunting. I had never been to or seen a field trial a couple years ago, but met some field trialers. My dog is now QAA at 3 and I am testing my saying above, because I am thinking AFC or even FC is in my future. Good luck to you, but as others have said, raise your goals!


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Well Gooser I think it's fine that all you want is a good hunting dog. I also think that a MH or HRCH is a hellava accomplishment and a very very worthwhile goal. I guess that's just me though.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

wetdog said:


> Gooser, I have long gone by a saying I heard once...."If you think you can or you think you can't, you are right!" The dog I now own, I bought thinking I could have a gun dog for hunting. I had never been to or seen a field trial a couple years ago, but met some field trialers. My dog is now QAA at 3 and I am testing my saying above, because I am thinking AFC or even FC is in my future. Good luck to you, but as others have said, raise your goals!


Hey Dave is that you? If so just remember it's Abbey not you  and yes she is a very nice dog.See you in the Ams this spring.

Jeff


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Socks said:


> Well Gooser I think it's fine that all you want is a good hunting dog. I also think that a MH or HRCH is a hellava accomplishment and a very very worthwhile goal. I guess that's just me though.



I want to be sure that there is no confusion about my previous posts.

*First*, I don't think that any of us need to force competitive venues on anyone else. There is nothing wrong with not enjoying competition, any more than there is something wrong with enjoying competition. As long as you are having fun with your dog(s), who cares?

*Second*, when it comes to Mike (MooserGooser), I am not telling him that he should compete, or that he is wrong in not wanting to compete. I am simply saying I am tired of hearing him whine - both on RTF and in person - about his alleged short-comings. I don't think that those short comings are present. But, if they were, I would tell him - and anyone else - either fix it or stop complaining about it. I despise whining.

*Third*, I am not much into the "this person is better than that person" stuff we get so frequently on RTF

Suppose
Person A trains and handles his dog
Person B has a pro train his dog, but handles it in competition
Person C has a pro train and handle his dog

Why is any person better than the other?

For my own selfish reasons, I would like to have more owners run their dogs, because I believe - perhaps wrongly - that the more people did so, the more people we would have working at, judging, and putting on trials - which I think is good.

Ted


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Bunch of cry babies.
If you want it bad enough, go get it.
Field trials are a competition, with only 1 winner. 
When enough old guys die off, doors open for new blood. The cycle continues.
Don't whine that you can't compete against the pros, there are too many that do.
You had better learn to accept failure, while committing to improve. Otherwise consider an adult FFPS league.


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## yellow machine (Dec 7, 2005)

My Goal is to have a well trained dog..
Gooser[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly. You have to to far to get payback and that is not my drive anyways. I do it because I want a kick ass hunting dog that everyone wants to invite me on their trips. When I do a FT and my dog makes a call back "win win". One of these times we will beat them. Kind of like beating the NY Yankees.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Howard N said:


> Believe me, when you finish your first all age it'll be damn near as good as sex and when you win one.... Well, not really better if I recall correctly.


You do get a blue ribbon for winning an open though..... ;-)


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Howard N said:


> *Believe me, when you finish your first all age it'll be damn near as good as sex and when you win one.... Well, not really better if I recall correctly*.


Howard, I said earlier that I remembered your first open win... but I didn't see this part of your post. Now I know why you were so damn happy and blubbering incoherently 

But was that before or after the trial?


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

JusticeDog said:


> You do get a blue ribbon for winning an open though..... ;-)


A field trial too!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> Bunch of cry babies.
> If you want it bad enough, go get it.
> Field trials are a competition, with only 1 winner.
> When enough old guys die off, doors open for new blood. The cycle continues.
> ...


What an inviting intro to the FT game. Sort of like letting the newbies here know right up front that they need thick skin to enjoy the forum, because they are going to be treated rudely. 
I am so sick and tired of this attitude that it has pretty well stolen the joy. I'll just have fun working my dogs when and where I can. After all, they are why I do it.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Carol,

I believe Mark was saying that you do have to be able to accept defeat and get your satisfaction in small doses. The OP has an issue with Pro's in the Qual, this is just the way it is. I have been blessed to have my first two dogs be some what competitive. Competition is tough. Not everyone gets a ribbon or even to play until the end. Once you win though you realize how watered down that feeling would be if things were made less competitive. Also there is the Owner/handler Qual. Im not a big fan of them but hay they are part of the sport. So Like Mark said either go to the Truck and cry or Cowboy up. Things are tough at the top level of dog games. The rewards are even greater. At least to me. off my soap box now.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

(Mike beat me to it, thanks TD#2! Too bad you don't have your own products line!)

Take my post out of context if you choose Carol.
The thread is about competing agains pros in field trials. It has nothing to do with participation on the forum, or in hunt tests, or agility, or dock dogs, or visits to the bark park.
I haven't met a pro yet that's going to withdraw their client's dog from the 4th series to give some amateur a better chance. I wouldn't want to win that trial if they did. (Ok, well maybe I would accept the blue, but it would have an asterisk).
As one person on here will say... put on your big girl (or boy) panties if you choose to participate in a competitive sport.
If you're only in it for the social aspect, that's your perogative I suppose, but that's not why I compete. (Although I've made some great friends in my pursuit).
There are multiple avenues for spending time with your dog, but that's not this subject.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> (Mike beat me to it, thanks TD#2! Too bad you don't have your own products line!)
> 
> Take my post out of context if you choose Carol.
> The thread is about competing agains pros in field trials. It has nothing to do with participation on the forum, or in hunt tests, or agility, or dock dogs, or visits to the bark park.
> ...


Mark & Mike,

The thread is not that I have issues with Pro's running the Q or competing against Pro's. I am trying to state that I would like to see new people run there own dogs, especially in the minors, rather than have a pro run the dog. Is there a better place than the minor stakes to run as a newbie than the minors? People talk about getting new blood in the FT game all the time, GREAT. But run your dogs when you have the chance. Don't be a spectator, be a participant, is what I'm trying to say.


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## Grasshopper (Sep 26, 2007)

Wade said:


> Mark & Mike,
> 
> But run your dogs when you have the chance. Don't be a spectator, be a participant, is what I'm trying to say.


Amen, Cowboy UP!! 

Kathryn


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

You're absolutely right Wade. I veered a little.
If you're not going to compete in the minor stakes, its more doubtful you'll ever run the AAs.
(Although I'm just as nervous going to the line in the minor stakes as in the majors).
I'll also never understand what possible satisfaction folks get out of someone else titling their dog in HTs, but that's their business too.
I have an analogy that's not appropriate here.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> You're absolutely right Wade. I veered a little.
> If you're not going to compete in the minor stakes, its more doubtful you'll ever run the AAs.
> (Although I'm just as nervous going to the line in the minor stakes as in the majors).
> I'll also never understand what possible satisfaction folks get out of someone else titling their dog in HTs, but that's their business too.
> I have an analogy that's not appropriate here.


I'll be looking for the PM. LOL


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

MikeBoley said:


> Carol,
> 
> I believe Mark was saying that you do have to be able to accept defeat and get your satisfaction in small doses. .... Competition is tough. Not everyone gets a ribbon or even to play until the end. Once you win though you realize how watered down that feeling would be if things were made less competitive. ... Things are tough at the top level of dog games. The rewards are even greater.



Competition is tough. But, as Mike said, it can be very rewarding. 

I don't think people who are not part of the FT circle realize how we competitors can try to beat one another's brains out in a derby, qual, amateur, or open - be disappointed that our dog has not won or placed - yet still genuinely applaud someone who has won or placed. 

And then, start the process all over again, the next weekend. 

Your toughest competitors are often your best friends.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

Wade said:


> Mark & Mike,
> 
> The thread is not that I have issues with Pro's running the Q or competing against Pro's. I am trying to state that I would like to see new people run there own dogs, especially in the minors, rather than have a pro run the dog. Is there a better place than the minor stakes to run as a newbie than the minors? People talk about getting new blood in the FT game all the time, GREAT. But run your dogs when you have the chance. Don't be a spectator, be a participant, is what I'm trying to say.


Glad you pointed that out. I was thinking otherwise after reading the second sentence in the OP.

I like the fact that not everyone has the same agenda in the FT game. It seems to me that you could draw all types that way and gain as much participation as possible. Like Ted stated we need more people to get involved but I feel some never will. Lets not send them packing just because they choose to watch their dog rather than handle it. I am all for encouraging them to play but some just want to own and watch and will allways be happier that way. 

Not everyone dislikes running against the pros. I train gun dogs and HT dogs but love running minor stakes in FT. I spent the summer taking my personal dog to trials here and in Wi. just so I could run the Derby and Qual against 2 of the best young dog trucks in the country. I bet there are others like me who do the same. I saw on EE that Right Start took 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in a Derby so off I went a few weeks later with my one dog to see what we could do.

I Agree with most everything Ted has said and strongly agree that we need more participation in running and judging these events. I wish I had a great way to make that happen but I dont. 

Bottom line is some people love to compete and some like to watch, it's just in their nature. Some will work very hard at doing well and some will do things half A-- . Some simply dont have the time to invest and will hire a pro just because they still want to play in some way. Some just dont have the time or money to compete but will do their best anyway. I dont see anything wrong with any of it as long as it's fun for both dog and human.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Yeah Jeff, it is me. How is Beanie doin? I am thinking of taking the BIG step to AA next season....kinda scarey cause it will be new to me, but I got some good experience running the Q's. You are right, I have a good dog and I am trying to learn to me a good handler, I spent all those quals more for me getting experience and getting over the jitters, than for Abby. I think had I put her on a Pro's truck, she would have advanced much faster, but I am enjoying learning this whole game. Right now Abby is being a gun dog, which is what I originally bought her for. She retrieved 10 ducks yesterday on a hunt we went on. Boy these trial dogs make on hell of a gun dog!


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

And just when you thought it was contradictory enough, I had a choice to go to the SEC Championship game or go work with my trainer and my dog today, and I picked my dog. Mostly because the behavior he is describing sounds so foreign to me (that is, good) that I want to make sure he still actually has my dog.

Who wants to stand in line for an $8 Miller Lite that is warm anyway???



John Robinson said:


> OK there's another reason for not handling your own dog, I get that. There are many times I miss all the fishing, hiking, flying, sailing, you-name-it I used to do before becoming obsessed with dog training and trialing. It is a huge sacrifice. If you just want a well trained dog that gets quality work year around and don't want to sacrifice other things including work, football or family, hiring a pro is pefectly legit, not that you need anybody's approval.
> 
> For those of us who are obsessed, we are obviously not thinking this through in economical terms, I'd put a bullit in my head if I did that.
> John


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

I'll use my imagination for the analogy.

I hear you on the HT thing, but you might have inadvertently painted with a little bit too broad a brush. I have a friend with a 3YO (I think) who this year has passed the Grand and the Master National. My friend started his own business right before he got the dog (do the math) and is in a situation that if he's not working he's not eating and making mortgage payments. If it were up to him to train or handle himself, he couldn't do it. He had a hard time making it to see his dog run in the Master National when it was less than an hour from his house. 

The choice here was either let a pro train and handle or let the dog lay on the couch and waste all that potential. And I can't believe that it is all that uncommon. I don't even 
have kids, and it is still very difficult to find time, especially at this time of year, to train, much less to figure out how to get better as a trainer with a wife and a job. 

Sometimes people do things out of necessity to help a dog reach their potential. 



Mark Littlejohn said:


> I'll also never understand what possible satisfaction folks get out of someone else titling their dog in HTs, but that's their business too.
> I have an analogy that's not appropriate here.


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Wade said:


> Mark & Mike,
> 
> The thread is not that I have issues with Pro's running the Q or competing against Pro's. I am trying to state that I would like to see new people run there own dogs, especially in the minors, rather than have a pro run the dog. Is there a better place than the minor stakes to run as a newbie than the minors? People talk about getting new blood in the FT game all the time, GREAT. But run your dogs when you have the chance. Don't be a spectator, be a participant, is what I'm trying to say.


Wade I reread your OP, you are correct that the minors are a good place to get your feet wet. What better way than to do that than to think a new handler put one over on an old pro. I just dont want to see the dilution of competion for the sake of participation.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

MikeBoley said:


> I just dont want to see the dilution of competion for the sake of participation.


I agree Mike, however remember this game was, is and always should be ABOUT the Amateur. 

There is nothing wrong with using a pro, none what so ever. But when game time comes, if at all possible, as a new person to the sport with a dog entered in a minor stake run your dog in that minor stake. Learn to handle the dog. learn to handle your emotions at those lower levels so that when one gets to the big leagues (AA stakes) you have controlled some of those things.

I believe to understand how things work internally as a judge, as a gunner, as a thrower, as a marshal you have to experience being on the mat yourself during a trial.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

RookieTrainer said:


> And just when you thought it was contradictory enough, I had a choice to go to the SEC Championship game or go work with my trainer and my dog today, and I picked my dog. Mostly because the behavior he is describing sounds so foreign to me (that is, good) that I want to make sure he still actually has my dog.
> 
> Who wants to stand in line for an $8 Miller Lite that is warm anyway???


I believe you made the wrong choice!!!! LOL

Should be a good game. I am not a big of Mark Richt, I like Bama to win


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## MikeBoley (Dec 26, 2003)

Wade said:


> I agree Mike, however remember this game was, is and always should be ABOUT the Amateur.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with using a pro, none what so ever. But when game time comes, if at all possible, as a new person to the sport with a dog entered in a minor stake run your dog in that minor stake. Learn to handle the dog. learn to handle your emotions at those lower levels so that when one gets to the big leagues (AA stakes) you have controlled some of those things.
> 
> *I believe to understand how things work internally as a judge, as a gunner, as a thrower, as a marshal you have to experience being on the mat yourself during a trial.*


I think we are in agreement. I think you need to do all the things bolded to really understand how to do a good job judging a stake.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I would think that amateur vs. pro has been going on since Field Trials started. So much so that they started a stake stricty for amateurs.

Field trials are a little like fly fishing. Mysterious, a little scary to start. Once you get into it and understand things you wonder what all the fuss was about. Of course, there isn't a gallery and two judges watching you fly fish either...


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

John Lash said:


> I would think that amateur vs. pro has been going on since Field Trials started. So much so that they started a stake stricty for amateurs.


Unfortunately John, some folks found that they could be semi-pro's & still play at the amateur level. & there is no leadership to deal with that .


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I think the game is and should be about the dogs. To be sure of that the dogs should be handled by the* best *handler. Sorry, but In some cases this is not the owner of the dog. There is no way what so ever that leveling the playing field is in the best interest of the mission statement to find "the relative merits of retrievers ( Dogs) in the field" ......



john


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

So what are you saying John? Please elaborate a little more.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Wade said:


> So what are you saying John? Please elaborate a little more.


https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewentries.aspx?eid=5544
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?91543-Snowbird-Retriever-Club/page2

Look at the entries and the results of the Snowbird trial, this is what the Q is all about. The Pros and A list Ams finish with the *best dogs there that day*.............That is how it was meant to be. 

If some other dog was better that day they would have placed; no matter who was handling. 

THAT is and should be what this game is all about!

Its about the dogs regards,

john


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

john fallon said:


> https://www.entryexpress.net/loggedin/viewentries.aspx?eid=5544
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?91543-Snowbird-Retriever-Club/page2
> 
> Look at the entries and the results of the Snowbird trial, this is what the Q is all about. The Pros and A list Ams finish with the *best dogs there that day*.............That is how it was meant to be.
> ...


I don't have an issue with Pro's in the game. However, if we don't have people running their own dogs in those minor stakes how will our judging pool get any deeper or better? If Pro's are running most of those dogs in the minors how will those newer people become A list amateur handlers?

One can not gain the neccesary knowledge by sitting on/in the sidelines/gallery.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Wade said:


> I don't have an issue with Pro's in the game. However, if we don't have people running & training their own dogs how will our judging pool get any deeper or better? If Pro's are running most of those dogs in the minors how will those newer people become A list amateur handlers?
> 
> One can not gain the neccesary knowledge by sitting on/in the sidelines/gallery.


A little change - the answer is it will not, but we will be able to show our computer skills here on RTF & discuss phantom judging & testing scenarios. & we will be able to spend a couple of weekends watching a couple of other folks, take an open book test & receive the blessing of the powers that be as an accredited member of the judging pool .


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## John Montenieri (Jul 6, 2009)

As has been stated before, if you're having fun with your dog, in any capacity who's to say what is right or wrong, good or bad. Yes we need more folks in the sport but unless you commit time and resources it can be daunting. I don't care about pro's running against me and I'll tell you why. Nothing is more satisfying then beating a pro at their own game. They bring out the best in me and I relish the competition. Doesn't mean I'll win, place or even finish but to be the best you've got to beat the best and with our training group we've got some pretty heavy hitters. Seeing that confidence and approach to the game gives others in our group a good perspective on how to train/compete within this venue. Yeah more disappointments than rewards but man when you place against a tough field, you just can't beat that feeling. My goals, title my dog (AFC), qualify for a national (30 days late this year, damn). I, like Ted, told Cherylon that I wanted to qualify for a national and I didn't have a clue what that actually required when I said it. I do now and that is where I'd like to be someday. I love this sport, really enjoy my training group and frankly it's like a drug I can't get enough of. 

Hopelessly hooked regards.

John M.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Running a dog in minor stakes will not deepen the judging pool, unless of course you are just looking for minor stake judges. The requirements for judging an AA stake are not just take a test any more. Yes we can hope those who handle in the minor stakes get the bug and will continue on to the AA level, but let's be realistic the rate of new people coming up through the ranks is about 2-3 per year if the sport is lucky and then they go on to the AA level, get their rears handed to them one too many times and quit. This game is not for the faint of heart...

Someone told me once the average life expectancy of a FTer wannabe is about 5 years....if a person can make it past 5 they are generally hooked, anything less and they may or may not survive, more than likely they pack up their toys and go home.


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## TIM DOANE (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with John M. as long as folks and dogs are enjoying themselves what is the problem. Those that have no intrest in running their own dog most likley wont become a judge either. 

I dont train with a group of heavy hitters and dont even get to train Ft stuff all that often with my own dogs. I do however enjoy going to a trial where the top young dog trucks are entered to see if I can beat them. If I come with one dog and run against their 10 or more and do well I can then speak to the talent and training of my dog. That gives me reason to travel to the few field trials I get to run each year. I have nothing against these ft pros, I have great respect for them which is why it means so much to me to do well while running against them.


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

I think it is fine to encourage people to run their dog. On the other hand, it is a competition, and some people don't like to compete. I know several people who have/had the goal of owning a titled dog. Some had no desire to run the dogs, and some said they wanted to wait til the dog was successful, or even titled before they ran the dog. If thats what they want, thats ok with me. 

If someone really wants to participate in field trials, they will. If that means running in the minors, all the way through AA, Good. If that means running AA stakes once the dog gets there, again, Good. If they don't want to participate, and just pay a pro, well, thats fine too. You can't make people want to compete.


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

FOM said:


> Running a dog in minor stakes will not deepen the judging pool, unless of course you are just looking for minor stake judges. The requirements for judging an AA stake are not just take a test any more. Yes we can hope those who handle in the minor stakes get the bug and will continue on to the AA level, but let's be realistic the rate of new people coming up through the ranks is about 2-3 per year if the sport is lucky and then they go on to the AA level, get their rears handed to them one too many times and quit. This game is not for the faint of heart...
> 
> Someone told me once the average life expectancy of a FTer wannabe is about 5 years....if a person can make it past 5 they are generally hooked, anything less and they may or may not survive, more than likely they pack up their toys and go home.


..Ok then..


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

It's not so much about "competing" as it is starting at a level that will bring and keep new people in the sport.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

FOM said:


> Running a dog in minor stakes will not deepen the judging pool, unless of course you are just looking for minor stake judges. The requirements for judging an AA stake are not just take a test any more. Yes we can hope those who handle in the minor stakes get the bug and will continue on to the AA level, but let's be realistic the rate of new people coming up through the ranks is about 2-3 per year if the sport is lucky and then they go on to the AA level, get their rears handed to them one too many times and quit. This game is not for the faint of heart...
> 
> Someone told me once the average life expectancy of a FTer wannabe is about 5 years....if a person can make it past 5 they are generally hooked, anything less and they may or may not survive, more than likely they pack up their toys and go home.


The logic here seems off, unless your point is that the judging pool for the higher levels will never deepen and the current judging pool will remain static until they die or retire. 

If only amateurs can be judges, the way to deepen the pool is for new amateurs get into the sport. And hopefully for that amateur to have experience training their own dog and to run their own dog in the minor and major stakes. How else can you have the necessary experience to be a knowledgeable judge who keeps the sport solid, for lack of a better word. 

If all the amateur did was watch the pro train his or her dog, then watch the pro run the dog up through AA with only an occasional time at bat, how is that amateur going to be a good judge?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

​


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

Wade said:


> It's not so much about "competing" as it is starting at a level that will bring and keep new people in the sport.


If a person is afraid of the level of competition that exists in the minors, they will probably not thrive in the upper levels and will soon be gone.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

FOM said:


> If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.​




So spoke the Great Dandy Don Meredith on Monday Night Football, Mount Vernon Texas's own son and SMU's finest​


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## BBnumber1 (Apr 5, 2006)

I agree that we should encourage new people to handle their dogs. When I see new folks, I do encourage them. I just don't see many new people at Trials.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

BBnumber1 said:


> I agree that we should encourage new people to handle their dogs. When I see new folks, I do encourage them. I just don't see many new people at Trials.


And on that note, when I was looking for a Pro I was told by several that I would not be handling my dog other than in the Am, needless to say I never sent my dog to these Pros. I think a persons pro should be encouraging them to handle, but it's a double edge sword...so we are back to if's and but's.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

I think that some pros do encourage their clients to run their dogs.

My pro Cherylon Loveland does not compete, so if I want my dogs to be run, it is up to me.

When my dogs were with Dave Rorem for the winters, Dave was very supportive of my efforts to run my dogs in the Open, as well as the Am.

I have seen a number of Kenny Trott's clients run their dogs in the minors and the Amateur, which would lead me to believe that Kenny is encouraging their participation.

I judged the Open at Swamp Dog this fall, and I know that Randy Bohn was helping his clients run their dogs in the Open

I am sure that there are other pros, who encourage their clients to run their dogs, too.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> The logic here seems off, unless your point is that the judging pool for the higher levels will never deepen and the current judging pool will remain static until they die or retire.
> 
> If only amateurs can be judges, the way to deepen the pool is for new amateurs get into the sport. And hopefully for that amateur to have experience training their own dog and to run their own dog in the minor and major stakes. How else can you have the necessary experience to be a knowledgeable judge who keeps the sport solid, for lack of a better word.
> 
> If all the amateur did was watch the pro train his or her dog, then watch the pro run the dog up through AA with only an occasional time at bat, how is that amateur going to be a good judge?



*First,* my general observations are as follows (they are my observations, if you want do disagree, feel free to do so, but I am not going to get into a debate about whether they are accurate or not):

- As a practical matter, although the number of entries seems to be relatively constant, the number of owners who handle their dogs seems to be decreasing. 
 
- The number of owners who train their dog and handle them in competition seems to be decreasing as well.

- The numbers of amateurs who compete with their dogs are insufficient to service the numbers of trials and stakes across the country.

*Second*, if pros were allowed to judge, it would increase the judging pool. However,

- I don't think that there is sufficient political support to authorize pros to judge
- Even if pros could judge, I doubt that there are sufficient numbers of pros to satisfy the short fall
*
Third*, although as a general matter, I believe that it is helpful to a judge to have experience training a dog and competing with a dog, I have run under my share of judges who did both and were mediocre judges at best.

The key in becoming a better trainer, handler, or judge - first and foremost is desire and willingness to learn. Some have it, some do not. I have found over the years in this sport - as in life - that it is very difficult to make an adult a good student. By the time a person reaches adulthood, they are either a good student or are not. 

Accordingly, in field trials - as in life - I will invest time in someone who I view to be a good student; I will ignore someone who I view to a poor student. Time is the big commodity in my life, and I am very careful where I invest it.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> I want to be sure that there is no confusion about my previous posts.
> 
> *First*, I don't think that any of us need to force competitive venues on anyone else. There is nothing wrong with not enjoying competition, any more than there is something wrong with enjoying competition. As long as you are having fun with your dog(s), who cares?
> 
> ...


You know Gooser and I don't and you have the knowledge and the titles. Sometimes I get kind of concerned when it seems that the HRCH and MH is treated as just something that you can get while going for the FC and AFC. Maybe I'm just being oversensitive and I'm not saying you've done this. Like I said, I think the HRCH and the MH and big accomplishment.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Socks said:


> You know Gooser and I don't and you have the knowledge and the titles. Sometimes I get kind of concerned when it seems that the HRCH and MH is treated as just something that you can get while going for the FC and AFC.


FT & HT are they're own cultures and do not cross much. How many FC-AFC these days do you see with an MH attached to the back? (Very Few) I don't know that I've ever seen one with an HRCH or a GRHRCH attached. It's becoming rare to see even QAA or derby dogs with HT titles. Seems like people choose one or the other, perhaps if you had more cross you might see more of this new blood everyone is supposedly looking for. But realistically everything from trials-tests-clubs right down to training groups-training style are segregated, often times with very ingrained opinions about the other venue (both sides). There is no real transition point btw the two, Picnic trails have all but disappeared, Every once in a great while you might see an Owner/handler Qual attached to a HT, those are increasing in rarity. Where's the pull-hook for the HT amateur to even try the FT venue, without jumping straight in to a venue ran mainly by pro trained dogs which is all but setup with an air of exclusivity and unattainably?


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