# HRC Hunt Test Low Entries???



## Burnt Oak Retrievers (Sep 25, 2009)

Mid Atlantic HRC had their first event this weekend in Farmville, VA and the entries were extremely low. I have noticed the decline in the entries over the past two years in this region. What is is from? Anybody have any suggestions. 
Before you say it. I know the grand didn't help out but where are the 120+ AKC dogs that fill every weekend? Why isn't HRC "fitting in" in this region?


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Because everyone hates invites to Farmville ;-) Sorry, couldn't help it.


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

Some of it may have to do with the limit on dogs per handler. I know the pros do not like that and like it or not they bring lots of dogs to the AKC masters.

Russell


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## pat addis (Feb 3, 2008)

it seems to be all over not just one area. there could be many reasons, the price of gas to get there, people that have the resources to do this are getting older, finished seems to do ok but started and seasoned seem to be low. could be people skip these and go to finished. but I have looked at akc hunt tests and they seem to have low numbers in jr and sr, master seems to fill up.in our area the weather sucks so training is hard to do.


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## Burnt Oak Retrievers (Sep 25, 2009)

After this weekend this is what I think.
HRC needs to get back to the grass roots of their slogan "Conceived by Hunters For hunters". It seems that the amateur gets judged harder than the pro!! I say this as a Pro. And the standard isn't the standard that it was 5 years ago. I will say this that with the reputation that HRC is getting on the east coast or mid atlantic region it will be next to impossible to have a Successful HRC event. The key to success is interested members and entries. If the intreset in HRC goes down because the test are impossible to pass with and average dog then we have lost all hope in getting an established hunt test in the state of Virginia. We already have 3 clubs in a two hour window that struggle with entries. You know maybe judging with a slightly less sharp pencil wouldn't be a bad thing. Our Started and Seasoned flights were perfect had a few fail but there was no doubt. Our Finished has a pass rate of 9% on Sunday. Now were the dogs that bad or were the judges that tough or Maybe the 10 dogs that entered weren't ready even tough (6 were MH or had MH passes). 

So basically if we weed out the amateur and make it an unpleasurable experience why in the world would he or she pay 130 for entries plus give up a weekend and pay 200+ for expenses.


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

Didn't you have the same judges Sat and Sun? AKC tests have shots from the gunner station. MHs have to learn to mark of the gun. Not hard to teach but if a dog does not swing and see the mark he is going to have a hard time picking it up. How many finished entries did you end up with each day?


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

On the heels of the Grand and if you're going to use EE you need to get the word out to clubs and members in the region. One of the clubs in my region went to EE this year and I missed scheduling their test and entered an AKC instead.
On the HRC calendar there was no mention of EE


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

No comment on the Virginia area. Locally, HRC seems alive and well. 2 tests within driving distance & both are full in Finished on Mothers Day weekend. DAH waited until the last minute & is running Finished Sunday only. Will be there Saturday also running 1 dog in Seasoned.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

If, as stated in the original post, this was the club's FIRST test, low numbers could be attributed to people not being familiar with the club, not expecting a test in that place on that weekend, and particularly not knowing about the test because it was on EE and not Hunt Secretary. If publicity for next year's test is better and the numbers are still low, then you might have something to worry about. From what I've seen, it can take a couple of years for a new event to really get going.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

fishduck said:


> No comment on the Virginia area. Locally, HRC seems alive and well. 2 tests within driving distance & both are full in Finished on Mothers Day weekend. DAH waited until the last minute & is running Finished Sunday only. Will be there Saturday also running 1 dog in Seasoned.


DAH betta be running in FAIRHOPE....


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

HRC folks tend to expect HRC events to be posted on HuntSecretary.com. HRC is alive and well and thriving in our area. Bay Area will likely be full in Finished, Seasoned and Started for this weekend. Music City will no doubt be full as well. Frankly, the same folks run AKC and HRC (and some FT's, too) for the most part. Its all dogs having fun picking up chickens.


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## Tater 7 (Mar 20, 2014)

I would not expect to look on EE for HRC hunt test so that may have been an attributing factor. I dont check EE for HRC but I will start now


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

GulfCoast said:


> DAH betta be running in FAIRHOPE....


Y'all were full! Meeting my sister in Nashville to run brother in laws dog. I need to sell tickets!!! Tipsy is low drive compared to him!


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## NCShooter (Dec 6, 2012)

Will,
You bring up good points. I agree with you that in that it is surprising that MH dogs did not pass Finished tests in that number. I ran HRC finished two weekends this spring and the tests difficulty varied greatly. 

As a "newbie" running one dog, hunt tests in general are not friendly to the amateur. It involves a bunch of sit and wait.

We discussed attending your test, but with the Grand just completed, it just did not happen. I think your next test will be better attended.

The HRC's inconsistency in how you register for a hunt test is also a factor. In HRC, Hunt Secretary is a pain. Having to sign up for every day individually, etc. Not to mention some clubs still using paper entries only.

In AKC entry express is it. It is also a very good system, particularly of you have multiple dogs.

Just my two cents,
NCShooter


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

In Florida HRC is bleeding bad. NEFHRC had 20 finished, 7 seasoned, and 4 started.

CFHRC did ok, BUT they held their test in combination with an AKC test. 40 finished, 26 seasoned, and 20 started. The year before they cancelled because of low entries. In 2012 they had they had 26 finished dogs. This is also the HRC Presidents home club. 

Our test, TCHRC had 12 finished, 6 seasoned, and 6 started dogs. Training days have more dogs running. This may have been the end of HRC for us. We will be discussing it thoroughly because this is at least the fifth year that our entry's just don't justify the cost of running a test. We lost money and that is just bad business. My personal vote is going to be to hold another FT, HT, or combination of the two rather than invest the money and effort to hold a HRC test.


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

fishduck said:


> Y'all were full! Meeting my sister in Nashville to run brother in laws dog. I need to sell tickets!!! Tipsy is low drive compared to him!


We're gonna miss you guys! The real show will be Dooley at seasoned. Remember, he escaped the holding blind and beat the working to the bird at North AL. Made Sonya proud of Tipsy! :razz:


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

fishduck said:


> Y'all were full! Meeting my sister in Nashville to run brother in laws dog. I need to sell tickets!!! Tipsy is low drive compared to him!


 oh my theres more of yall?


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Will:

I have been vocal on this issue for quite some time. I believe strongly that HRC is suffering declining entries can be partially attributed to a move away from its core constituency. The HRC was designed to serve the guy with one dog looking for a better hunting companion, not the serious dog trainer and certainly not as a minor league to the Grand. Unfortunately recent leadership has developed an inferiority complex and has done everything it can to drive the organization to emulate the AKC HT program, something it will never successfully accomplish on a nationwide basis for a variety of reasons. Any dissent has been firmly suppressed, and God forbid you should criticize the Grand.

Recent FUBARS have exacerbated the situation and driven people from the program. 

As a judge, I have been 'encouraged' to set tests with the emphasis on conventional training and less as an evaluation of a hunting dog. This to some degree has pushed the tests away from the guy who trains once or twice a week and into of the realm of the serious trainer and of the professional. Over the last year or so, I have judged a number of finished tests in the Carolinas, Virginia, Tennessee and Georgia. At almost every test, I have judged nearly full finished flights where the I might have 3-4 pros with 20+ dogs and 3 -4 amateurs frequently with multiple dogs. At the ribbon ceremonies and the wonderful dinners hosted by these clubs the attendance is very poor compared to other areas I have judged. Except for one spectacular exception. the seasoned tests and started tests have been very poorly attended. This tells me the amateur is staying away. The big question is why.

I do not think for one instant the loss of the amateur is due solely to the type of tests being offered, but it sure doesn't help.

One major handicap facing the HRC is the transiency of it core market. The AKC attracts serious trainers who have made it a major part of their lifestyle. AKC titles carry far more weight with a majority of the puppy markets. The original target constituency for the HRC was the guy with one dog for whom dog training was all part of the greater activity of waterfowling (and to a degree upland hunting). Unfortunately these people seem to stay as long as they need to reach the desired levels with their dog and then drift away. HRC seems to have a few diehards in each club. These members must continually recruit new members in the hope they can groom a few new 'diehards' to go along with the transients before the core burns itself out. Clubs that fail in this recruiting seem to die on the vine once the core burns itself out. Attracting new members is that much harder when the tests lose relevancy.

I think the HRC is misguided trying to offer itself as an alternative to the serious dog trainer, especially in a tight economy. In many areas it has driven away its core without replacing the core with its coveted participants. Critics of my position point to the 400+ dog attendance as evidence of their success. I posit this is proof of my position as 90+% are pro handled. The MN by comparison has a higher percentage of amateur handlers. Valid criticism of the Grand by knowledgeable trainers point to the unevenness of the judging and the over emphasis on line behavior as a criteria for an elite hunting dog. Less value placed on the hunting ability of the dog and more emphasis on precision lines and precision marking are more in line with field trial standards than evaluating hunting dogs.

The HRC as initially envisioned served a very valuable role to the dog sport as a whole. It provided an additional portal for those only tangentially interested in training their dogs to the greater world of advanced retriever training. Those who no longer were satisfied with the quirks and informal HRC attitude can move along to greater challenges in the FT world or the typically more technical AKC tests.

This is my opinion but I think it is shared in some form or another by many long time HRC participants who are very concerned by the current direction of the HRC.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Well said Stu. Back in 2004-2006 Rebel and I were going to a lot of HRC tests going for 500 points. We travelled all over the south east doing it. I see very little of that any more. Owners/trainers/handlers get the HRCH then go to AKC for MH and I think many just don't come back to run for points. What is the point? The AKC MH and MNH title do carry more weight and seem to be more recognizable to the general public as far as breeding goes.
And I think there is still and will continue to be a back lash from a certain % that remember the Tommy Landers Grand, Claudene's departure and all of the silence that went with it, and the publicity debacle of the last election. As in all things, people do have a choice.
JMHO
MP


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

RF2 said:


> We're gonna miss you guys! The real show will be Dooley at seasoned. Remember, he escaped the holding blind and beat the working to the bird at North AL. Made Sonya proud of Tipsy! :razz:


I try to hand Todd the lead every time I run. The commentary is always colorful!!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Marty Lee said:


> oh my theres more of yall?


That type of breeding is alive and well. I LOVE the hard chargers. They are poetry in motion IF you can control them!!


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

fishduck said:


> Y' Tipsy is low drive compared to him!


There is a phrase I never thought would be spoken!


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

red devil said:


> Will:
> 
> I have been vocal on this issue for quite some time. I believe strongly that HRC is suffering declining entries can be partially attributed to a move away from its core constituency. The HRC was designed to serve the guy with one dog looking for a better hunting companion, not the serious dog trainer and certainly not as a minor league to the Grand. Unfortunately recent leadership has developed an inferiority complex and has done everything it can to drive the organization to emulate the AKC HT program, something it will never successfully accomplish on a nationwide basis for a variety of reasons. Any dissent has been firmly suppressed, and God forbid you should criticize the Grand.
> 
> ...



All very valid points. I started in HRC decades ago and never even looked at an AKC test because for me it was about hunting retrievers. I can't put my finger on it, but it is not the same as it once was. I will still run it with the pup I am getting in a week, but I will do it because I enjoy running as much as I can regardless of the venue not because I love HRC. One of the big problems, as you pointed out to some extent, is that the majority of people do not put much weight into HRC titles and furthermore many see UKC as a minor registry and some even see it as poor excuse for a registry because it registers breeds AKC doesn't recognize. Combine this with the ever tightening dollar and people run where they get the biggest bang for the buck. 
I have only run one Grand and it was a blast, however, the focus on line manners just shocked me. I had heard the rumors of how tight it was but I had no idea (we had no line issues). While I understand and agree that a hunting dog needs to be well behaved in the blind, they took it to am extreme. It just seems to go against the core values of what HRC once stood for. I do not see myself running another grand for this reason and for the reason above. My limited dollars are, IMHO, better spent chasing the MN. 



Mike Perry said:


> Well said Stu. Back in 2004-2006 Rebel and I were going to a lot of HRC tests going for 500 points. We travelled all over the south east doing it. I see very little of that any more. Owners/trainers/handlers get the HRCH then go to AKC for MH and I think many just don't come back to run for points. What is the point? The AKC MH and MNH title do carry more weight and seem to be more recognizable to the general public as far as breeding goes.
> And I think there is still and will continue to be a back lash from a certain % that remember the Tommy Landers Grand, Claudene's departure and all of the silence that went with it, and the publicity debacle of the last election. As in all things, people do have a choice.
> JMHO
> MP


Mike, you touch on more issues. HRC seems to have a number of issues and much of it is growing pains. HRC has been around forever and forever they have done things old school. They were late to the electronic entry party and when they did finally give up the snail mail (not sure they have completely) they decided they needed to be different than the others and use hunt test secretary. That is fine and good, but as a business you want to be as mainstream as possible. I would go out on a limb and say there are more people who run both AKC and HRC than those who run only HRC. Many of the folks that run both have no idea what hunt test secretary is. I promise you half the people that ran our last test have never heard of HTS. 
I believe that HRC has some good people in leadership roles in that they want to do the right thing for HRC. The problem is that currently HRC is a poorly run business as you point out in your examples. They have a tough task ahead of them to pull people back in. A huge problem with that is many are so set in their belief that HRC is perfect they cannot see the problems or issues that do exist. I think a lot of people stay away because of the camo issue. People just want to run their dogs, not play dress up. I don't so much have a problem with camo, but this is another issue that varies from judge to judge. I have run test in HRC without a scrap of camo and I have also been sent off the line because I had running shoes on. That is the kind of stuff that chases people away. I have a friend who has hair white as snow. She came to the line with a black hat on. The judges made her take if off. Instead of having a black hat on she stood there with her white hair blowing in the wind. Do you know what that does in terms of keeping someone active in the organization? There is a huge amount of "we don't need to change, you do" in HRC and it is a turn off to many. I am not saying to compromise your values, but you must balance that with common sense and you must remember that people pay to run their dogs, not to be humiliated for their dress. I am sure some of the diehards will eventually post here telling everyone that there is nothing wrong with HRC and we are just haters. That only serves to alienate people further.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

Corey, can you expand on the line manners part of your post? 

I didn't get to go to the Mid Atlantic test as I was already entered in SC. I also didn't know about HTS, which is probably why I haven't found more tests. As to camo, I guess I'm going to have to expand my wardrobe if I do more with HRC. I'd like to try it out. Not for the titles but for the fun of working with my dogs....


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

I train with and am member of our local HRC club but can honestly say I have never run any of my dogs ( ran others) other than test dog. I do have one that I may start running in a few finished tests but the Master and Qual. are more appealing to me. The Camo Natzi and no flyers kind of turns me off, more so the no flyer than anything else, if I'm going to pay $75.00 for an entry I want a live bird. It really bugs me when I have to go gas 100 perfectly good ducks the night before rather than shoot them as flyers seems like a waste to me..


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

suepuff said:


> Corey, can you expand on the line manners part of your post?
> 
> I didn't get to go to the Mid Atlantic test as I was already entered in SC. I also didn't know about HTS, which is probably why I haven't found more tests. As to camo, I guess I'm going to have to expand my wardrobe if I do more with HRC. I'd like to try it out. Not for the titles but for the fun of working with my dogs....


Just very strict on getting your dog to the line and what they expect at the line. It is kind of ironic in that I have hunted all my life and have seldom seen a dog walk at heel like a robot while afield or walking to a hunting blind. Funny too because the HRC knock on AKC dogs was that they wanted "mechanical" dogs in AKC.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

This dream of having hunters get involved just doesn't seem realistic. A hunt test doesn't make a hunting dog better. And who is going to pay 240.00 in entry fees plus travel to put a SHR title on a hunting dog? If you make it easier the title is going to lose it's value completely and I think you will be worse off. I think the solution is too appeal to the competitive handler but continue with the direction of being more realistic. 

1. Get the grand under control. This 15% pass rate is crazy low and it is all about getting dogs out rather then judging work. I am sure that some HRC die hard is going to rip me for that but that is the way many of us feel. Why work in HRC if you know you don't want to go to the grand.
2. Require Finished passes to go to the grand each year, 4 or 2 if you passed the Grand last year.
3. Create a competitive level. IE steal the SRS concept. It would offer the HT guy an outlet where he would have to train for 400 yard marks and white coats. Also only HRCH and GRHRCH can enter. No mark over 200 yard. Throw quads, remote sits ect.....
4. Formalize the 500 goals with a HRCHX title.

Things like this to give the guy who likes to run dogs a reason to come to the weekend hunt.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)




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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Even knowing I could go sign up the day of- and with a half dozen HRC test a year within 2 hours if me I haven't yet gotten a wild hair. No fliers, and too much bs at the line. Those are really the only reasons I have never participated.


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## red devil (Jan 4, 2003)

Nate you make some excellent suggestions and as a HRC diehard I am certainly not going to rip you for your comments about the Grand. However, I will take issue with your initial comments:



> This dream of having hunters get involved just doesn't seem realistic


 This is how HRC started, how it grew and how it sustained in parts of the country today.



> A hunt test doesn't make a hunting dog better


 But training for an attainable title in a fun way does.



> And who is going to pay 240.00 in entry fees plus travel to put a SHR title on a hunting dog?


 I know I spent a lot more to put a JH on my dog before I knew of the existence of HRC. Almost every time I judge started, I meet a hunter new to the games. Handing people like that a ribbon and seeing the sense of accomplishment and pride in their dog is priceless and reminds me of when I started.
Better yet see a youngster pass a test with his or her owned and trained dog is at the core of why I judge.



> If you make it easier the title is going to lose it's value completely


 Never said anything about making it easier, just attainable (and relevant). This could justify a thread all and of itself. Place more value on a dog's ability to dig a bird out of a situation rather than the line he takes to get there. More testing emphasis on the teamwork, less on finding fault etc.... etc. As to value..... to whom? Many serious trainers view their titles as 'badges of honor' redeemable for bragging rights and higher priced puppies or stud fees justified as 'improving the breed'. I cannot speak for others, but the HRC titles my dogs have earned are mementos of our journey. Their value is to me alone. Now if I ever am skilled and privileged enough to win a blue ribbon.... Hey I am bragging to every corner of the Globe!!!!!! 



> I think the solution is too appeal to the competitive handler but continue with the direction of being more realistic.


 I think the AKC is doing a fantastic job of this  BTW I think the tests are becoming far less realistic than they used to be.


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

Mike Perry said:


>


I agree mike, the same discussions always come up. I dropped out of the club I was a member of for a couple of reasons. I've also got a group that want to start our own club but doubt we could get hrc affiliation so we are thinking about akc only instead of dual.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Mike Perry said:


>



Hey Mike, didn't you just beat that horse a couple of post up?


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## Andy Symons (Oct 2, 2003)

Nate, clean out your PM's.

The pass rate this spring was 11%. That's all I say. Already on the blacklist for comments about the "tricks" in the last two Grands, wouldn't want to find out if there is another list!!


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> Hey Mike, didn't you just beat that horse a couple of post up?


I thought I saw it twitch so a beat down was in order.


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## Quacktastic (Oct 4, 2013)

Want to increase attendance?

Have girls in bikinis throwing birds and a free beer tent in the gallery. Problem solved


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

that's logical next step from SRS. like WWE, its not a sport- its "sports entertainment"


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## Tater 7 (Mar 20, 2014)

Beer would be nice at the events!!!


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## SJLGundogs (Apr 4, 2014)

badbullgator said:


> In Florida HRC is bleeding bad. NEFHRC had 20 finished, 7 seasoned, and 4 started.
> 
> CFHRC did ok, BUT they held their test in combination with an AKC test. 40 finished, 26 seasoned, and 20 started. The year before they cancelled because of low entries. In 2012 they had they had 26 finished dogs. This is also the HRC Presidents home club.
> 
> Our test, TCHRC had 12 finished, 6 seasoned, and 6 started dogs. Training days have more dogs running. This may have been the end of HRC for us. We will be discussing it thoroughly because this is at least the fifth year that our entry's just don't justify the cost of running a test. We lost money and that is just bad business. My personal vote is going to be to hold another FT, HT, or combination of the two rather than invest the money and effort to hold a HRC test.


BBG: My experience with AKC and HRC in Florida was interesting. One particular AKC club, which will remain nameless, was not welcoming at all, never announced training days, were secretive about the process to use their training grounds and tried to steer new members to working HT instead of participating for at least a year. I think this was due to the over-subscription of the HT for AKC and they wanted to save spots for their "core group". 

The HRC people by contrast were really friendly and encouraging new people to participate. This may have to do with what you said about their events being less than 100% full.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> if I'm going to pay $75.00 for an entry I want a live bird. It really bugs me when I have to go gas 100 perfectly good ducks the night before rather than shoot them as flyers seems like a waste to me..


I agree, still if you want a live flyer in your HRC test come to southern CA, we've never had a finished test without one, a trend we moved to seasoned this last test, and if our rule change proposal gets a nod, hopefully an option in our started test in the coming years. Flyer should be a Club-Judge option for all stakes; a hunting dog should be able to handle a crippled bird at any level of training period, otherwise they are not a useful conversational tool. (I can pick up dead ducks myself, wounded ones I need a dog for) HRC is still growing out west, there are 3-4 new clubs all over the nation in the last few months. We do have an issue with lower entries, but it enables us to put on very nice-friendly test, just got to make sure to watch the pennies; and we make a bit of money or at least break even. But making $ is not the real point of running a test, nor is it the point of a club; the point of both these things is to offer people an opportunity to get out an train/run/enjoy their dogs.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

I'm judging Finished at Music City HRC this weekend. They have 2 flights of Started, 2 flights of Seasoned and 2 full flights of Finished. They wanted to add 1 or 2 more Finished flights, but couldn't find judges (burn out from the Grand last week). Last May, Music City had 6 full Finished flights. I'm also judging at Old Hatchie next weekend and they have 3 Finished flights. I'd say attendance is still pretty good in some areas.
We had 3 full Finished flights at Charleston in March as well.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Four States HRC recently held a Spring HT. 2 full flights of Finished (60 dogs), 35 Seasoned, and around 50 Started each day. I judged 4 HT's this spring and they were close to the same number as ours. No slowdown in our area.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

I have to agree on all points Corey brought up in his post #23. Too long to quote.
I really haven't participated enough in HRC to know the history and politics behind it but it's ironic this was the first thread that popped up when I checked RTF today.
Last night I flipped through an older issue of the HRC mag, from the fall of 2012. It highlighted one of the Grands held in OK. 
I had to struggle to find any dogs handled by women. I couldn't find a dog who passed handled by a woman.
HRC needs to wake up and realize that every other dog sport out there is dominated by women; if they want sustainable new participants it is not the dying breed of the weekend hunter but the woman who has a dog she wants to train and play dog games with. Who after participating in HRC events then becomes interested in hunting and wildlife conservation. In this day and age it is going to work in reverse than when HRC started. 
I'm no feminist but I have always felt the unwelcoming "good old boys" culture in HRC -- never in AKC hunt tests. Perusing the list of Grand participants in the HRC mag was disheartening. 
Another observation is the wild inconsistency of judging at the finished level from test to test. Very frustrating.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

At the OK Grand there were at least 3 women. Comparatively a low number, but there were a few. I specifically remember a woman amateur with a nice chocolate female that did a wonderful job on the "Mudzilla" blind.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Several women ran the 2013 Spring Grand


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Once again, the AKC vs. HRC angstfest. They are both great organizations, each with inconsistencies and opportunities for improvement. Both of 'em. I can't tell you how many Master judging points I have, at least 10, and I am chairing an HRC Hunt Test this weekend and have been an HRC club president for 5 plus years. Its not "either/or." I see the same folks at both AKC and UKC tests. I would encourage all of you to come have fun with us at Bay Area HRC this weekend on the Gulf of Mexico, but we are all full (save for 8 spots in Started, call us!) with no more land to add flights....with great lady handlers, great lady committee members, great lady marshalls, great lady club members, and some of the best lady judges in HRC. Anney, you and your dogs are always MOST welcome in our little corner of the world. 

Mark


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Furball said:


> I had to struggle to find any dogs handled by women. I couldn't find a dog who passed handled by a woman.


Might have to struggle to find those passed by a Amateur owner-handler (period) let alone women; The last Grand I looked at had a Grand total of 5 Amateur passes, Pursuing the pics of the qualifying handlers in the Grand that just completed looked to be 18 handlers total (not sure if this was everyone). I haven't gone through the list yet to see how many amateurs passed, but most seem to be ran by Pros. Seems like a Grand might be tough to get through with only one bullet, I'll have to think about that if I ever decide to cross the Rockies and go.

The lack of Women in the HRC venue, I'd blame on one thing (THE USE OF A REAL GUN); this is the hardest issue we'd had getting female handlers to switch over or even try the HRC venue, they don't like the Gun; even with women clinics etc. etc. This issue seems to appear during switch from started to seasoned; still around here we're probably 50/50 with women and men running finished (all 11-16 of them )


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> The lack of Women in the HRC venue, I'd blame on one thing (THE USE OF A REAL GUN);


Reason why my wife will not participate.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

"Several" out of 400+ ---- um ---- sucks

"Just sayin"


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Furball said:


> HRC needs to wake up and realize that every other dog sport out there is *dominated by women*


Are you referring to AKC hunt test numbers or non retriever events? There doesn't appear to be a large % of women handlers at the Master National. I do know we have a good many women that run in our local HRC test and do a damn good job. I can see handling the shotgun as a contributing factor to the lack of women participating, but I like that part of HRC and don't see it changing.


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## stinkydog (May 6, 2014)

Very well put


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

SJLGundogs said:


> BBG: My experience with AKC and HRC in Florida was interesting. One particular AKC club, which will remain nameless, was not welcoming at all, never announced training days, were secretive about the process to use their training grounds and tried to steer new members to working HT instead of participating for at least a year. I think this was due to the over-subscription of the HT for AKC and they wanted to save spots for their "core group".
> 
> The HRC people by contrast were really friendly and encouraging new people to participate. This may have to do with what you said about their events being less than 100% full.


Sorry that was your experience, but I also think you are making assumption that are not completely correct. I can only assume you are talking about my club, Treasure Coast. If so I will tell you our training days are posted on the website. Changes to these days are emailed to club members who are current in their dues and have provided a correct email. As far as using "their training grounds", these do not belong to the club and the owners are graciously enough to let the club use them for official club events including our monthly training days. They are not as a rule open to any club member who wants to use them whenever they please. Some member have been in the club for decades and know the owners personally. Often they do have the privilege to use the grounds, because of their relationship with the owner. The property owners are VERY concerned about liability and for that reason every club member has to sign a waiver. The waiver covers club events, not necessarily personal use. 
Now the part about working instead of running is where I wonder if you are talking about another club. We hire help for our test, but certainly do expect members to do their part, however, never at the expense of not entering. I can also tell you I cannot remember the last time we filled all of our flights, with the exception of this past fall when we had 62 dogs enter ( this was not a limited test, that was all the dogs that entered we would have been happy to add a flight). A club member, in fact a core member, pulled his two dogs so we did not have to split. Our junior senior are always around 20 dogs and far from full so we will take all the entries we can get. 
If you are not talking about my club I can only say that Mid Florida and Tallahassee RC both post training information on their website and Tallahassee allows training on the grounds and the rules for such are posted on their website. I can't speak to training grounds with mid Florida because I am not sure they have official grounds, but I do know that some they use are privately owned and just as our grounds are not necessarily open to everyone outside of training days. 
If your talking about Jacksonville RC I don't even know if they have training days.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Dman said:


> Four States HRC recently held a Spring HT. 2 full flights of Finished (60 dogs), 35 Seasoned, and around 50 Started each day. I judged 4 HT's this spring and they were close to the same number as ours. No slowdown in our area.



Not sure anyone ever said every HRC test had low numbers, but keep on thinking everything is good because your area is not affected. A healthy, thriving organization need to be more than popular regionally. Your right, nothing to see here. 

Told you they would be along


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

We don't fill ours up in the Central MN either never have. I don't see alot of cross over up here between HRC and AKC, seems like it's either one or the other, don't get me wrong there are a few but way more AKC people than HRC..I'm really trying hard to convince our finished judges to shoot a flyer this year in at least one of our tests..


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

HRC's next step needs to be to grow strong clubs outside the "deep south," especially on the West Coast, and strengthen entries in places like Florida where they are lagging. The problem I see, is that no one seems to agree on how to do those things, or there is no sense of urgency. The tail often wags the dog in HRC, but hope springs eternal...


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

GulfCoast said:


> HRC's next step needs to be to grow strong clubs outside the "deep south," especially on the West Coast, and strengthen entries in places like Florida where they are lagging. The problem I see, is that no one seems to agree on how to do those things, or there is no sense of urgency. The tail often wags the dog in HRC, but hope springs eternal...


Mark, that is exactly what I am saying. Actually you leave out that there is a strong sense of denial among the old guard in HRC. There are several post on this thread that tell us how well their clubs are doing and have the attitude that since they have entries there is no problem. They are the same bunch that do not realize that all organizations must evolve over time and sometimes changes are for the good of the organization. 
One of the things that disappoints me the most about our club is that for us HRC has been hanging on by a thread. The HRC president is a member of the HRC nearest to our club and this past test we had I believe two members of that club run our test. Now let me say that Tracy Stubbs has always been a tremendous help to us in finding judges and making our test come together, but sadly his own club does not support our test. The same is true of NEFHRC. I am not sure if any of their members attended out test. In fairness they are 5 hours away, but you would think other clubs in the state would make an effort to support other clubs. Every year we discuss if we will reman an HRC club and every year we hope we will be supported by HRC members in the state. Every year we lose at least a thousand dollars


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Furball said:


> "Several" out of 400+ ---- um ---- sucks
> 
> "Just sayin"


I don't know how many, but I personally know 4 that ran. There were no where near 400 handlers there.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

GulfCoast said:


> HRC's next step needs to be to grow strong clubs outside the "deep south," especially on the West Coast, and strengthen entries in places like Florida where they are lagging. The problem I see, is that no one seems to agree on how to do those things, or there is no sense of urgency. The tail often wags the dog in HRC, but hope springs eternal...


The only way for it to grow is to have more clubs, and more opportunities to run, were spread out pretty thin up here we have our test in June, other MN club has a test in July, and one in Sept, SD club has a test in July so for us there are only 4 test within a reasonable driving distance, on the other hand from my house I can run a AKC test within driving distance almost every weekend if I wanted too. I personaly don't see it growing much up here..


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

GulfCoast said:


> HRC's next step needs to be to grow strong clubs outside the "deep south," especially on the West Coast, and strengthen entries in places like Florida where they are lagging. The problem I see, is that no one seems to agree on how to do those things, or there is no sense of urgency. The tail often wags the dog in HRC, but hope springs eternal...


I agree. It does seem the west coast is expanding and they are also shooting a lot of flyers because many of the clubs are dual clubs. Four States HRC is also a dual club BBG.

We do things right, like to have good judges, and have a lot of fun. For some reason people like to run our tests. Same goes for most of the other clubs I judge for in this area and the Dallas Ft. Worth area. I think almost all of the Louisiana clubs fill up every test. Central La fills up in August when it's normally 100 deg. 

The sky is not falling.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Dman said:


> I agree. It does seem the west coast is expanding and they are also shooting a lot of flyers because many of the clubs are dual clubs. Four States HRC is also a dual club BBG.
> 
> We do things right, like to have good judges, and have a lot of fun. For some reason people like to run our tests. Same goes for most of the other clubs I judge for in this area and the Dallas Ft. Worth area. I think almost all of the Louisiana clubs fill up every test. Central La fills up in August when it's normally 100 deg.


We are a dual club as well and use great judges several posting on this thread as well as the janator a couple of time. Maybe it is because we use flyers in finished? 
Our AKC test are well attended. What is the difference. Enlighten me how we don't do things right. 
Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Every thing is good in Texas, nothing to see here. 
One more time, it is great your club and others do well. Excellent! I am glad I want HRC to thrive, but you cannot continue to say "we do things right" and our club is doing great and deny that there is a problem. You sound like Bagdad Bob.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> We are a duel club as well and use great judges several posting on this thread as well as the janator a couple of time. Maybe it is because we use flyers in finished?
> Our AKC test are well attended. What is the difference. Enlighten me how we don't do things right.
> Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Every thing is good in Texas, nothing to see here.
> One more time, it is great your club and others do well. Excellent! I am glad I want HRC to thrive, but you cannot continue to say "we do things right" and our club is doing great and deny that there is a problem. You sound like Bagdad Bob.


Whatever! I never said any of what you said. I simply7 said there is not a problem in my area.


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Dman said:


> Whatever! I never said any of what you said. *I simply7 said there is not a problem in my area.*


Yippie! That's the point


Look, I am not trying to be an ass (many argue I don't have to try). I am just pointing out that what you are saying is part of the problem. Many like you are great representatives of HRC and an asset to the organization. There are many like you. Kim Smith comes to mind. Kim is a good friend of mine and one of the best things HRC has going for it. The only bad part about Kim and many other dedicated HRC folks that give so much is that they spend so much time defending the status quo and will never admit there are issues including declining entries in many areas. If these folks would stop taking the defensive posture every time these discussions come up and use the same energy they use to defend the same old issues to correct them HRC would be unbeatable. 
Like I said for many years I was strictly an HRC guy and I still love it.


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## Keith S. (May 6, 2005)

Entries have seamed to fluctuate as long as I've been involved(only 10 years). It does seam like there aren't as many people running for fun past their HRCH or chasing points. It also seams like more people are waiting till their dogs are really ready. I played the AKC game very little with my old dog, but want to participate it a lot more with my young one just because I like the dog games, esp the ones close to home. 

I'm guessing a MNH titles has helped draw people to the MN and having to qualify. Like I said, I'm very new to AKC tests, but the flier thing I don't get it. Personally, and it's probably my lack of dog training knowledge, I think I could hand throw a dead duck blowing my duck call and shooting at it multiple times and get a dog just as amped as a live bird(and I've done that in a test and it was awesome!). I would really like to hear from dual clubs why they don't throw a flier at their HRC test.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Keith S. said:


> Entries have seamed to fluctuate as long as I've been involved(only 10 years). It does seam like there aren't as many people running for fun past their HRCH or chasing points. It also seams like more people are waiting till their dogs are really ready. I played the AKC game very little with my old dog, but want to participate it a lot more with my young one just because I like the dog games, esp the ones close to home.
> 
> I'm guessing a MNH titles has helped draw people to the MN and having to qualify. Like I said, I'm very new to AKC tests, but the flier thing I don't get it. Personally, and it's probably my lack of dog training knowledge, I think I could hand throw a dead duck blowing my duck call and shooting at it multiple times and get a dog just as amped as a live bird(and I've done that in a test and it was awesome!). I would really like to hear from dual clubs why they don't throw a flier at their HRC test.


A flyer adds an element that no dead duck can, the shooting and calling is something that you can work on every day in training if you choose to, but it's unrealistic to shoot a live flyer every day in training, and once a dog gets a few trust me he will know where the flyer crates are even if he can't see them he can hear them in the crates. And a flyer isn't as predictable as to where the fall is going to be, it's not going to land on that orange ribbon every time like a winger mark will so there will be alot of scent in a area VS a spot. Just seems silly to me not to use them these are hunting dogs and hunting dogs pick up shot ducks not gassed ducks..


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

badbullgator said:


> The only bad part about Kim and many other dedicated HRC folks that give so much is that they spend so much time defending the status quo and will never admit there are issues including declining entries in many areas. If these folks would stop taking the defensive posture every time these discussions come up and use the same energy they use to defend the same old issues to correct them HRC would be unbeatable.
> 
> 
> > If you think I am part of the "status quo" you don't know anything about me. You can talk to anyone and I mean anyone on the executive committee or Grand committee and ask them if they think I am "status quo? I know every one of them and have known many of them for many years. They will all laugh at you. I have complained to all of them for years about things I think they could do better. None of them are paid employees of HRC. They are just like me. They volunteer hundreds of hrs. per year so people can run their dogs.
> ...


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I like running hrc test, just hate a couple things like the hunting attire/camo rule and it's enforcement. I wear shorts everyday the temp is above 40. I also wear keen sandals everyday I train if the grass is dry. It pisses me off to go to the handlers meeting before a test only to be told my olive colored shorts and sandals aren't good enough while a pro wears a bright red Arkansas hat and is told nothing. It's funny the couple of years I was training for the public and had 8 dogs running I was never once asked to change clothes. I also had one judge say something about me wearing a visor instead of a hat. All I could say was "come on man!"


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## BlaineT (Jul 17, 2010)

BrettG said:


> I also had one judge say something about me wearing a visor instead of a hat. All I could say was "come on man!"


LOL….i hear ya.

Coming off the line at first land series at the Grand. Dog did the work clean. Everything was fine. Got pulled off to the side and was told "you need to wear a camo hat. I didn't catch it in time before you called for the birds. But next time wear a camo hat." I pulled my CAMO visor off my head (which i hunt in more than half the season) and said, its camo! I didn't take it off, i didn't use it, in any way. and actually I was in the first holding blind and realized i had on a tan hat and told the marshall i was gonna run back to my truck and get a camo hat real quick. She was fine with it. 

Not the end of the world, and yeah a small detail, but dang like you said, "come on man!".


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

What can the HRC do to promote the sport in these areas struggling for entries?


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## Elaine Mitchell (Jun 4, 2009)

fishduck said:


> What can the HRC do to promote the sport in these areas struggling for entries?


I think the first thing to do is figure out where these areas are. I don't dispute that the problem exists, Corey and others like him wouldn't be so passionate about it if it didn't. But it's hard for me to see when I've run or worked 5 HRC and 2 AKC tests since the first of March and every one of them was full at the upper levels and had good numbers in the beginner/intermediate levels. We send numbers to HRC and UKC after every test, it shouldn't be difficult to compile the data to show where the low numbers are and focus some energy to help those clubs. 

Florida is at a bit of a geographical disadvantage not being able to pull from neighboring states like most areas can. We ran a derby at Treasure Coast in January. The club was great, the grounds were great, the tests/judges were great. On the way home I told my husband, TCHRC is in our region and I had a great time but there was no way I could run a weekend test down there. It's a 9 hour drive for us. I'd have to use two vacation days that I just don't have to spend.


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## SJLGundogs (Apr 4, 2014)

badbullgator said:


> Sorry that was your experience, but I also think you are making assumption that are not completely correct. I can only assume you are talking about my club, Treasure Coast. If so I will tell you our training days are posted on the website. Changes to these days are emailed to club members who are current in their dues and have provided a correct email. As far as using "their training grounds", these do not belong to the club and the owners are graciously enough to let the club use them for official club events including our monthly training days. They are not as a rule open to any club member who wants to use them whenever they please. Some member have been in the club for decades and know the owners personally. Often they do have the privilege to use the grounds, because of their relationship with the owner. The property owners are VERY concerned about liability and for that reason every club member has to sign a waiver. The waiver covers club events, not necessarily personal use.
> Now the part about working instead of running is where I wonder if you are talking about another club. We hire help for our test, but certainly do expect members to do their part, however, never at the expense of not entering. I can also tell you I cannot remember the last time we filled all of our flights, with the exception of this past fall when we had 62 dogs enter ( this was not a limited test, that was all the dogs that entered we would have been happy to add a flight). A club member, in fact a core member, pulled his two dogs so we did not have to split. Our junior senior are always around 20 dogs and far from full so we will take all the entries we can get.
> If you are not talking about my club I can only say that Mid Florida and Tallahassee RC both post training information on their website and Tallahassee allows training on the grounds and the rules for such are posted on their website. I can't speak to training grounds with mid Florida because I am not sure they have official grounds, but I do know that some they use are privately owned and just as our grounds are not necessarily open to everyone outside of training days.
> If your talking about Jacksonville RC I don't even know if they have training days.


BGB: I wasn't talking about TC in my original post and I've heard good things about them (but thanks for calling me out on a wrong assumption). My point was that in the limited instance of a busy AKC club versus perhaps a not so busy HRC club, one was more welcoming of new members than another. I wasn't trying to denigrate a particular Club, that's why I said it would remain nameless. I was trying to suggest that HRC had an opportunity in Florida to expand participation here based on my experiences.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Bay Area would shoot a flyer any time the judges wanted in Finished and Seasoned (assuming we had the entries to support the extra birds), but we are in the city limits with all our grounds, so live rounds are out, per the po-leece. I would shoot one in a freaking heartbeat.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

GulfCoast said:


> Bay Area would shoot a flyer any time the judges wanted in Finished and Seasoned (assuming we had the entries to support the extra birds), but we are in the city limits with all our grounds, so live rounds are out, per the po-leece. I would shoot one in a freaking heartbeat.


If we shoot em real quite this weekend, can Beau Luckie and I put on in our finished test?


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

It would have to be REALLY quiet, indeed, since the Po-leece usually come watch!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

bjoiner said:


> If we shoot em real quite this weekend, can Beau Luckie and I put on in our finished test?


If you can talk Gulfcoast and Splash_em into shooting, they can kill flying ducks with a Red Ryder BB gun. Those two can flat out shoot flyers!


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

jhnnythndr said:


> No fliers, and too much bs at the line. .


So standing at the line pointing a stick is better ? I could careless about a flyer. My dogs get that during hunting season.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

Todd Caswell said:


> Just seems silly to me not to use them these are hunting dogs and hunting dogs pick up shot ducks not gassed ducks..


And hunters shot guns not sticks.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

We shoot a flyer every test, if we didn't we couldn't compete. HRC is very new in this area, AKC and Nahra are not, they have flyer. It was pretty much a culture shock when, we Learned no flyer was standard practice in HRC. So we put them in finished then in seasoned. Judges were not really given a choice, as we kept all the birds alive . We have Nice tests but entires a lacking, I think it becuase HRC is so new. That and the gun people get freaked by the gun, but a hunting dog needs a gun, can't hunt without one . #1 complaint I hear is lack of flyer, particularly the started handlers, who want their dog to get exposure to crippled birds.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> So standing at the line pointing a stick is better ? I could careless about a flyer. My dogs get that during hunting season.


You might care less, or maybe you don't want a flyer because of the difficulty it adds? But your dog is going to act differently if it knows there a flyer out there, and you can't compare a flyer during hunting season to a flyer at a test. All I'm saying is it would be a better venue if flyers were the norm, how many HRCH dogs have never had a flyer shot for them outside of hunting season? I would bet quiet a few. A dead bird winger mark lands in a 3 foot circle all day long, a flyer fall area may be 10 times that size with the scent of fresh birds all over, makes it a much tougher bird to dig out, and then run your blind past the flyer crates and through the flyer fall area, now you got something.. The gun stuff makes no difference to me it's not about the gun, it's about a dog and a handler..


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> So standing at the line pointing a stick is better ? I could careless about a flyer. My dogs get that during hunting season.


You could care less, but what about your dog? Dogs treat flyers differently. What about getting dogs ready for hunting season? I train FOR hunting season, not during it.


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## USAR K9 (Mar 12, 2012)

I would certainly enjoy more HRC tests in FL. Love running both AKC & HRC venues. Ok, and a few Quals, so far, too! 
I have had to travel to WI and other states to get Finished passes for my dogs. If someone figures out how to make HRC more popular in FL, count me in!! I do agree with an earlier post of having all the FL clubs try to help each other. That might be something to work on!


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Todd Caswell said:


> You might care less, or maybe you don't want a flyer because of the difficulty it adds? But your dog is going to act differently if it knows there a flyer out there, and you can't compare a flyer during hunting season to a flyer at a test. All I'm saying is it would be a better venue if flyers were the norm, how many HRCH dogs have never had a flyer shot for them outside of hunting season? I would bet quiet a few. A dead bird winger mark lands in a 3 foot circle all day long, a flyer fall area may be 10 times that size with the scent of fresh birds all over, makes it a much tougher bird to dig out, and then run your blind past the flyer crates and through the flyer fall area, now you got something.. The gun stuff makes no difference to me it's not about the gun, it's about a dog and a handler..


This. 

And despite Dwayne's super persuasive argument my entry fees will keep going to the outfit that gives me more technical tests with a live flier and minimal bs at the line . You keep your bucket poppers and face paint- ill keep the fliers and technical tests and we can both have our fun


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## Dwestall (Aug 30, 2011)

John Gassner said:


> You could care less, but what about your dog? Dogs treat flyers differently. What about getting dogs ready for hunting season? I train FOR hunting season, not during it.


Well then you better get real gun and shoot it because I've never hunted with a group of guys where I sat 100 yards away and watched the fellas have all the fun shooting the birds. I hunt because I like hunting, I hunt birds because I like the teamwork between me and my dog. I'd spend most of my time big game hunting if didn't. My 2 year old dog got more exposure to shot birds in one week of his first dove season than he will get in a lifetime of hunt tests. That being said......if you train for hunting I've never seen an akc test that remotely resembled an actual hunt......I've at least seen a few hrc tests that were in the ballpark. Ive got a lot more of my limited experience in tests in hrc though. Having someone 100 yards away from me shoot a bird with a dog at my side doesn't resemble any of the multiple hundreds of days I've spent hunting though. I like both venues and a shot flyer the dog loves but he loves running around the park too. What I like is paying my money and getting to run the whole test whether I passed or not. I much prefer that to one shot flyer and being sent home after the first series.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

You can't really fall back on realism as your argument when shooting off caps while a cold wet unshot duck is beinf catapulted into the field for your dog is the paradigm your dealing with. As long as its not real- and the dog is there for the birds not the gun.... And I'm with her... We will go where the warm juicy ones are.


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## Dwestall (Aug 30, 2011)

That was my point neither one is real. If you just want to shoot warm bleeding birds, save your hunt test money and buy 15 birds and shoot them yourself. We run the games for fun and to test how we have done teaching our dogs the concepts of hunting and retrieving. I think hrc does that better on the first part anyway....ymmv. I still run both because I like doing it but actual hunting still tells me more about where my dog is than either venue.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

These threads always seem toend up this way about Flyers, vs gassed birds, real guns Vs sticks....gets old!

But,,

I will say this:

One venue states "Marking is of primary importance"... the other venues rule book doesnt say that.

Their tests ,,(the one whose philosophy is that Marking is of primary importance,)tend to be more conceptual in nature, and test trained responses in the upper levels. While you can handle, most know the magic number allowed..

The other venue, that doesn't state in its rule that Marking is of primary importance, evaluates Retrievers on qualities desirable in a Hunting Retriever...
I believe their tests tend to be less conceptual in nature,, and focus more on a evaluating a dog to be a desirable hunting companion..
Their rule book states that judges should score a dog *lower* on poor marking REPEATED handling on marks,.Leaving the hunt area, disturbing to much cover.. They score the dog *LOWER*!! Poor Marking in and of itself,(unless the dog Fails to find the bird, throwing an object to help the dog find a bird, or *excessive* (Subjective) handling), isnt a reason to fail the dog. It can contribute to the overall evaluation of that retriever,, but at the end of the day that venues Judges are instructed to ask themselves if "they would Hunt with this dog" they look at the overall picture.. It can tend to be very subjective..

In my opinion,, two very different philosophy..

Both great organizations,,and Both fun to run..with good people to be around..


these threads always end up focusing on the birds.... gassed vs live flying vs dead flying,, but really,, when most of us attend club training days,, how many of those days are spent throwing Plastic??


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

Response to #83

So if I read that right you just said "if you want live fliers don't run tests"????

Well. I hunt to hunt, I test to test. I train because that's what you do if you like hunting and testing. 

I see no reason why we should automatically be allowed to ADVANCE if we failed to EARN a PASS at a TEST. 


So- with the original topic in mind- ie how to help HRC numbers- is your position that NOT shooting fliers is the answer- or part of it? I see a few people who have said they would like to see it- and I see a few others who have seen an done way more than me who are saying "when we have seen it done, it was favorably recieved."

If there was an HRC test in my town- ie 10 minutes away- that couldn't legally shoot a flier I would definitely go. If it was 15 minutes away- where the flier wouldn't be a problem- I'd blow it off.


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## Dwestall (Aug 30, 2011)

jhnnythndr said:


> Response to #83
> 
> So if I read that right you just said "if you want live fliers don't run tests"????
> 
> ...



I have no idea how to attract more to hrc. All I'm saying is flyer or no flyer doesn't make a whit of difference to me.


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## Dwayne Padgett (Apr 12, 2009)

jhnnythndr said:


> You can't really fall back on realism as your argument when shooting off caps while a cold wet unshot duck is beinf catapulted into the field for your dog is the paradigm your dealing with. As long as its not real- and the dog is there for the birds not the gun.... And I'm with her... We will go where the warm juicy ones are.


You get ONE flyer what about the other cold wet unshot ones ? That's the dumbest argument I've heard yet.


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## jhnnythndr (Aug 11, 2011)

well... on the bright side we won't ever have to discuss it face to face, at one of your HRC events, so your exposure to the argument and its foolishness will be low.


I'm no HRC member, and certainly have no drum to beat about how or why yall should conduct your tests- and I certainly can appreciate tradition and being reticent about going against it. I have no idea who, if anyone, HRC is trying to draw, who the core constituency is or anything else regarding demographics, all I am sure of at this point is that it isn't me. 


so to the couple people who would like to see increased particpation at HRC events, who are you trying to bring out?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

As far as who HRC is trying to attract. The answer is in the motto "by hunters, for hunters".

In many areas HRC is experiencing the same problem as AKC. If you procrastinate the upper level is full & you can't get in to run the test. In both venues some areas have lightly attended tests. As a community we should try to attend these low entry tests because we all lose when a club folds.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Burnt Oak Retrievers said:


> After this weekend this is what I think.
> HRC needs to get back to the grass roots of their slogan "Conceived by Hunters For hunters". It seems that the amateur gets judged harder than the pro!! I say this as a Pro. And the standard isn't the standard that it was 5 years ago. I will say this that with the reputation that HRC is getting on the east coast or mid atlantic region it will be next to impossible to have a Successful HRC event. The key to success is interested members and entries. If the intreset in HRC goes down because the test are impossible to pass with and average dog then we have lost all hope in getting an established hunt test in the state of Virginia. We already have 3 clubs in a two hour window that struggle with entries. You know maybe judging with a slightly less sharp pencil wouldn't be a bad thing. Our Started and Seasoned flights were perfect had a few fail but there was no doubt. Our Finished has a pass rate of 9% on Sunday. Now were the dogs that bad or were the judges that tough or Maybe the 10 dogs that entered weren't ready even tough (6 were MH or had MH passes).
> 
> So basically if we weed out the amateur and make it an unpleasurable experience why in the world would he or she pay 130 for entries plus give up a weekend and pay 200+ for expenses.


Right on, could not agree more.
JT


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Jeffrey Towler said:


> Right on, could not agree more.
> JT


With what part? Hopefully not the part about a slightly less sharp pencil and handing out ribbons to undeserving average dogs, just to keep the numbers up and folks interested.


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## Rob A (Apr 28, 2013)

I am new to the game. I ran at East Carolina and then Mid Atlantic to pick up 4 started passes for my dog. This thread is the first I heard of Hunt Secretary. It certainly fills in the gaps on a lot of tests I didn't know about.

Enjoyed the events - I like the duck calls and Camo. I'm not one to wear camo out to dinner Saturday night, but I think its fitting for the event.


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

EE and Hunt Secretary are companies that provide an entry service. If you ar looking for HRC HTs you should go to http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/entry_form_premiums_for_test_hunt.shtml
All HRC premium must be approved before publicatiion. Once approved they are listed on this web page. The premiums will direct you to EE, Hunt Secretary or to mail in a paper entry. HTs with paper entry only will not show up on either EE or Hunt Secretary. EE and Hunt Secretary are fine services. But the club's HT secretary ends up doing all the walk ups, so all the work is incomplete and has to be finished by the club secretary. Unless we close entries or fill flights I don't see any need to use either. Please take the $4.50 you save on each entry and spend it on the club raffle or donate it to the tailgate jug.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

wsumner said:


> EE and Hunt Secretary are companies that provide an entry service. If you ar looking for HRC HTs you should go to http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/entry_form_premiums_for_test_hunt.shtml
> All HRC premium must be approved before publicatiion. Once approved they are listed on this web page. The premiums will direct you to EE, Hunt Secretary or to mail in a paper entry. HTs with paper entry only will not show up on either EE or Hunt Secretary. EE and Hunt Secretary are fine services. But the club's HT secretary ends up doing all the walk ups, so all the work is incomplete and has to be finished by the club secretary. Unless we close entries or fill flights* I don't see any need to use either.* Please take the $4.50 you save on each entry and spend it on the club raffle or donate it to the tailgate jug.


What about a printed catalog?


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> With what part? Hopefully not the part about a slightly less sharp pencil and handing out ribbons to undeserving average dogs, just to keep the numbers up and folks interested.


My dog fell off a water stand because the stand was unstable. I had my foot on it, till I had to turn 180 degrees to shoot last bird. Stand rocked, she fell off. She got right back up on stand, I sent her, she picked up all three birds and blind, turned to judges and said well? They said she was out cause she broke . If my dog is doing poorly, I am the harshest critic around. I have decided from now on to just run AKC. I fail AKC, I am ok with that. My issue with HRC, Am I being judged to a Grand standard or a Finished standard at a weekend test? By the way Two judges happened to be running that weekend with me, both there dogs did the same as mine. They also were failed. One was from Canada the other from MI. Boy were they pissed, I don't blame them.

As far as giving pro's a break, I have had pro's tell me that to my face. No, I am not going to say who said that too me. I have also seen pro's tossed for no good reason. Example heavy set pro, sat on elevated platform with dog at water test, she turned and knocked dog off stand with her butt. They failed dog for breaking.

I used to have a blast at HRC, actually wanted to become a judge. My Waylon is out of Ron Anderson's Grand dog Bossman that just passed. I still love the people in HRC at local level. I think a Grand dog is a great dog. I will continue to pay my dues. I just am not going to waste a weekend that I can work at the proving grounds, to run a finished test, that I don't know if I am being judged to a grand standard or a finished standard.

JT


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Tater 7 said:


> Beer would be nice at the events!!!


No beer? Count bubba and I out

/Paul


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Jeffrey Towler said:


> My dog fell off a water stand because the stand was unstable. I had my foot on it, till I had to turn 180 degrees to shoot last bird. Stand rocked, she fell off. She got right back up on stand, I sent her, she picked up all three birds and blind, turned to judges and said well? They said she was out cause she broke . If my dog is doing poorly, I am the harshest critic around. I have decided from now on to just run AKC. I fail AKC, I am ok with that. My issue with HRC, Am I being judged to a Grand standard or a Finished standard at a weekend test? By the way Two judges happened to be running that weekend with me, both there dogs did the same as mine. They also were failed. One was from Canada the other from MI. Boy were they pissed, I don't blame them.
> 
> As far as giving pro's a break, I have had pro's tell me that to my face. No, I am not going to say who said that too me. I have also seen pro's tossed for no good reason. Example heavy set pro, sat on elevated platform with dog at water test, she turned and knocked dog off stand with her butt. They failed dog for breaking.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with your statement, and if that was the case them a little common scence should have come into play. I don't judge HT but I do judge trials and from what I have seen with some HRC tests is that judges may really try to setup something that resembles a actual hunt but at the same time they loose sight in the fact that there really there to judge dogs and not to try and set up a perfect mock hunt..


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> No beer? Count bubba and I out
> 
> /Paul


They got some crazy rule that says you can't have a beer untill the last dog has run. The BEER DOG


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Dwayne Padgett said:


> So standing at the line pointing a stick is better ? I could careless about a flyer. My dogs get that during hunting season.


In 20 years, god knows how many dogs, only had one dog break on a dead bird, and that was because of the live flapping hen pheasant shot 20 feet in front of him. Flyers are crack to an addict. Hrc judges the handler stricter than the dog. So while you are boasting about your dog, just remember, he's the best in the lowest testing ability for a dog

/Paul


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

We drink plenty of beer; just not until the guns are put away. Seems like common sense. At least that was what my dad taught me, and Boy, did he love a cold beer!-Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> They got some crazy rule that says you can't have a beer untill the last dog has run. The BEER DOG


Bubba and I believe once you run your last dog, they deserve a beer. After all, the dog did the work hat day, they deserve a cold one.

/paul


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

Todd Caswell said:


> What about a printed catalog?


Last year our test had a total of 142 entries for both days. Entry service fees at $4.50 would total $639 for catalogs and incomplete paperwork. We had catalogs and score sheets printed for $155.00. Catalogs only include those who enter by the advance entry date. I would rather include the adminstration fee in our entry fee and do the work ourselves. If our test get larger we will most likely go to an entry service but right now we can handle it in house and make a few additional dollar for the club.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Our club started, ran two good events. After that it went to doo doo. The rep didn't work with us, felt like against us, no entries, more politics than a presidential election, and when we didn't renew our dues the rep had the balls to call and ask for the club equipment since "it belonged to hrc". The members of the club bought that equipment not hrc. We told him he could stick hrc where the sun don't shine. 

The premise of hrc is great. Great game, lot of good people. Unfortunately there is also way too many politics, more than I've seen in any dog venue in 30 years of dog sports. I can say if you want a great time and great judge, get Derrick out there. Great guy, great dog man, great sense of humor, and funny looking to boot. He might be the best thing about hrc. If hrc wants to grow, it needs to stop the politics, stop the prejudice and get back to what is written in the original description.

/Paul


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> If hrc wants to grow, it needs to stop the politics, stop the prejudice and get back to what is written in the original description.
> 
> /Paul


Couldn't agree more. Sorry It didn't work out for you guys. Cade and I had a blast out there. Fun started at the airport. Thanks for having us.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> These threads always seem toend up this way about Flyers, vs gassed birds, real guns Vs sticks....gets old!
> 
> But,,
> 
> ...



So,, from what I posted previously.

Two very different philosophy! One test trained responses, with conceptual set ups, the other test the qualities desirable in a HUNTING RETRIEVER.. this is what the culture of that venue (Hrc) was set up to test.

If that venue (Hrc) is starting to change its philosophy, to be similar to the other,, they will loose participation. Died in the wool HRC guys have a very strong belief in the Hunting dog.. At the end of the day,the judges will ask themselves,, "Would I hunt with this dog?.."not,,, Did this dog Mark all 4 birds?

Hrc will look at the total overall performance of the dog to evaluate if the dog has the desirable quailties for a HUNTING companion. They dont state that just 1 aspect of a test is primarily important.. Its the overall performance.

So,, you can talk to the dog at the line, as the birds are going down,, you MAY be able to get away with a handle, depending on the situation. Dogs are often run in rivers with current they must deal with. Sometimes that aspect will require a handle. Its not a death sentence. They have been known to throw marks, and drag the bird off the fall area, to test the dogs ability to track down a crippled bird that ran off, and died away from fall area. They dont use attention getting calls from the gun stations.. the dog must learn to swing with the gun to see.... There is no path or channel to the blind.. the dog must show controll and "Progress" to the bird... There are NO CALL backs between series.... In mostinstancesYou play all day, and show your dogs total performance.. You only get dropped immediatly for a severe infraction (Gun safety, failure to deliver a bird,failuer to deliver to hand(Upper levels)

I think (my opinion) their Judging can be very subjective. What constitutes excessive handling, what size is the AOF. How much voice is allowed in running the dog. What is acceptable control. What constitutes progress to the bird on a blind? It all can be very subjective depending on the test and the judges..

If they move away from this basic belief,, they most definatly WILL loose participation... folks will just go run the "other venue"

JMHDAO>

Gooser


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Dman said:


> Couldn't agree more. Sorry It didn't work out for you guys. Cade and I had a blast out there. Fun started at the airport. Thanks for having us.


Cade's too good looking. Someone needs to push him in the pond and camo him up some....

/Paul


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

"Two very different philosophy! One test trained responses, with conceptual set ups, the other test the qualities desirable in a HUNTING RETRIEVER"

Any generalization is likely to be heavily influenced by one's own bias, and just often wrong. Contrary to Gooser's comment, this is what the AKC Regs state: From chapter 3 Section 1. Purpose. "The purpose of a [AKC] Hunting Test for Retrievers is to test the merits of and evaluate the abilities of Retrievers in the field in order to determine their suitability and ability as hunting companions."
One does not have to shoot blanks, wear camo and deride other organizations in order to test dogs "suitability and ability as hunting companions." 
Disclaimer - I've owned and trained 3 HRCs, 2 UHs, several JH and SH dogs and now on my 3rd MH and first QAA. I primarily run AKC as it suits me. And it's fun. And I don't have to listen to some judge tell me, ad nauseam, "Now that's real huntin'" or that my khaki shorts - on a 90+ GA afternoon - are not appropriate for his "little dove hunt." 
Get over the "my club is better than your club" and go play with your dog. As has been often said here, the dog does not care what the title says.


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## Robert (Feb 28, 2006)

IMO, the first rule in any venue should be shut up and run your dog. You don't like wearing camo don't run HRC. You don't like wood guns don't run AKC. This horse has been dug up, beat, re-buried, dug up and beat a thousand times. Comments on RTF don't change anything. Send an email to the organizations if you have a real problem with something.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I have run both venues also.

each venue has a different philosophy, and tests are judged differently.

I enjoy both venues . I run Akc tests, I am a member of HRC.

I am just agreeing that if HRC is Changing from its origins, they will most definatly loose participants.


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## Dman (Feb 26, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Cade's too good looking. Someone needs to push him in the pond and camo him up some....
> 
> /Paul


He's a pretty big ole boy. I would have to catch him by surprise.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> ...... If hrc wants to grow, it needs to stop the politics, stop the prejudice and get back to what is written in *the original description*.
> 
> /Paul


that is the nicest thing you have ever typed about NAHRA Field Tests /paul.


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