# Noisy dogs



## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

1) Dog is noisy in the holding blind... 
2) Same dog is noisy on line.....
3) You decide to run 2 or 3 blinds before you throw the marks( no sense in rewarding the dog for unwanted behavior...right??)
4) Same dog now on line watching a mark thrown and is quiet...
5) Why is the dog quiet now???

Randy


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Because blinds are exercises in control, and the dog's mind is now in tune with what the handler is going to command


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Because you have changed up his EXPECTATIONS!
JS


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Good answers so far...


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Got rid of some of the built up energy.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> 1) Dog is noisy in the holding blind...
> 2) Same dog is noisy on line.....
> 3) You decide to run 2 or 3 blinds before you throw the marks( no sense in rewarding the dog for unwanted behavior...right??)
> 4) Same dog now on line watching a mark thrown and is quiet...
> ...


heres my guess!

The dog is unsure what is going to be expected of him.. So therefore his focus and concentration increases.. He forgets to be noisey.
He has a Full time job now instead of a part time easy button duty thats all his.

Just a dumb arse guess..

Gooser


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Maybe he has the bird in his mouth from the last blind.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

I don't know, but I'd like to hear whatever you have to say about line manners or training in general.


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## Waterbug (Feb 27, 2008)

It gets rid of the 123 ready-set-go expectation and requires control and obedience


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

My theory: As soon as you arrive at the training area, the dog's anticipation and excitement instantly get cranked up a few notches. He's still in the crate, and while you're setting up, this builds. Other dogs are run, amping him up further. By now, he's probably whining. Then you opent the crate, and he wants to run out before being released, so it's "no, kennel!". Stress is building. Finally, he's out of the truck and he's rarying to go, and get's ahead of you and you correct with "heel", and running through your regimen for "heel" issues. Stress increases. You're finally in the holding blind, anticipation and stress are at 80% and the real vocalizing begins, which you correct with "sit, quiet." Guns are firing, duck calls are sounding, dogs are being sent, and Fido has to stay seated in the blind, and the stress has reached 90%, and he can't contain his vocalizing, yawning, etc. Now you walk to the line, and with more "heel" corrections, he can hardly contain himself. But instead of running a mark, you line him up for a blind. Every time you say "Heel, heel, here" while snapping or tapping your leg to get him looking in the right direction, he's whining in protest. You send him for the blind, receive the bird, line up, and send him again, then repeat. The pent-up stress has been given an outlet, he's physically winded (dogs are calmer when they're tired), and his excitement level has abated because blinds aren't as fun as marks.

That's my thinking, but like Charles C. said, I don't know, and am very interested in receiving your input.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Donald Flanagan said:


> My theory: As soon as you arrive at the training area, the dog's anticipation and excitement instantly get cranked up a few notches. He's still in the crate, and while you're setting up, this builds. Other dogs are run, amping him up further. By now, he's probably whining. Then you opent the crate, and he wants to run out before being released, so it's "no, kennel!". Stress is building. Finally, he's out of the truck and he's rarying to go, and get's ahead of you and you correct with "heel", and running through your regimen for "heel" issues. Stress increases. You're finally in the holding blind, anticipation and stress are at 80% and the real vocalizing begins, which you correct with "sit, quiet." Guns are firing, duck calls are sounding, dogs are being sent, and Fido has to stay seated in the blind, and the stress has reached 90%, and he can't contain his vocalizing, yawning, etc. Now you walk to the line, and with more "heel" corrections, he can hardly contain himself. But instead of running a mark, you line him up for a blind. Every time you say "Heel, heel, here" while snapping or tapping your leg to get him looking in the right direction, he's whining in protest. You send him for the blind, receive the bird, line up, and send him again, then repeat. The pent-up stress has been given an outlet, he's physically winded (dogs are calmer when they're tired), and his excitement level has abated because blinds aren't as fun as marks.
> 
> That's my thinking, but like Charles C. said, I don't know, and am very interested in receiving your input.



So you are saying to take the wind out of the sails so to speak.

In FT training groups I have been with in the past, they usually do marks first and then blinds last before departing. 
My penny worth.

PS...I might add that if doing blinds first instead of marks, then our fifo who is a creation of habit and who is expected to do marks first......


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Charles C. said:


> I don't know, but I'd like to hear whatever you have to say about line manners or training in general.


And how you carry this over to a trial or test where you don't have time to run a couple of blinds before running the first series marks.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Negative behaviors are a sign of a dog out of balance. A "noisy" dog is being non-responsive. By having him run blinds, there is an immediate demand for responsiveness. 

The proper adjustment to negative behaviors is to design immediate training sessions which enhance the weakest factor(s). He can't run a blind without handler input. Deal with it by "attacking" the cause which means strengthen the dog's weakness. 

This concept/approach is based on these factors - retrieving, "birdiness", control, focus and responsiveness.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

Randy Bohn said:


> 5) Why is the dog quiet now???


 In the holding blind, and at the line, the dog was telling *you* what 
to do.

By running the blinds first, you told the dog that it doesn't get to tell you what to do.

You took away it's sense of "authority", and placed it in a role that made it relinquish control of the situation.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

Randy Bohn said:


> 1) Dog is noisy in the holding blind...
> 2) Same dog is noisy on line.....
> 3) You decide to run 2 or 3 blinds before you throw the marks( no sense in rewarding the dog for unwanted behavior...right??)
> 4) Same dog now on line watching a mark thrown and is quiet...
> ...


I like to do use indirect pressure in the manner you described as well. Instead of nit picking for line manners directly I would rather use a blind with some pressure on the whistle. Don't know if that's what you are getting at but it does work.


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## Donald Flanagan (Mar 17, 2009)

BJGatley said:


> So you are saying to take the wind out of the sails so to speak.
> 
> In FT training groups I have been with in the past, they usually do marks first and then blinds last before departing.
> My penny worth.
> ...


Not to be argumentative, but I am not proposing a solution to the vocalization issue, but rather a possible explanation for why a dog who is being vocal in the blind could be run on 2 or 3 blinds, and come back to the line calm and quiet, ready for marks.

So yes, it is true that FT'ers often train for momentum and high attitude. Is there a case to be made for taking the wind out of a vocal high-roller's sails? I don't know- I'm still trying to get my first dog through SH. But part of my learning process is to take a question or scenario posed by a respected trainer (pro or am), and try to answer or explain it. Mr. Bohn has reportedly had some success in dealing with vocalization issues, and I've had some with my dog (hence my description above), and though it's only a mild issue with my dog, it's a discussion that I pay attention to.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

FinnLandR said:


> You have just described my dog at the last hunt test we ran. Now I really want to know the answer.


That is the answer to the OP's question. If i have a late number, and its the right time if year (early sun rise), and i have a place, I have run multiple blinds before running the test. Dennis Voigt haS a Come In drill that i like even better than just blinds. But....
The real question is, how do you get the dog to the line in the proper frame of mind at a test or trial when you don't have the time or place to go run blinds before running the first series marks?


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## tripsteer1 (Feb 25, 2011)

that sir, is the million dollar question.


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

I was hoping this was about a noisy annoying neighbor dog and a way to make it stop barking for 45 minutes straight, 1 minute water break, then another 45 minutes all day every day.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

captainjack said:


> That is the answer to the OP's question. If i have a late number, and its the right time if year (early sun rise), and i have a place, I have run multiple blinds before running the test. Dennis Voigt haS a Come In drill that i like even better than just blinds. But....
> The real question is, how do you get the dog to the line in the proper frame of mind at a test or trial when you don't have the time or place to go run blinds before running the first series marks?



You can always find a place to work on obedience, or to do wagon wheel drills in the morning. At the 2007 National Am in Evanston, I did both at 5:30 in the morning, under street lamps at a nearby school


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

While no background info was provided by the OP, I think the "calmness" is a product of energy use (lowering the dog's neural firing) along with the act of being under control via running the blinds - then again, the OP didn't say whether the dog had any whistle stops. ;-)

Whether the dog was conditioned to having marks first then blinds, the OP didn't say.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Something that was brought up by a very well know Amatuer field trialer at a Lardy clinic I attended was that amatuer trained and handled dogs are more likely to get jacked pre-trial than are dogs that spend most of their days on a pro truck training. I had my whiner there for 5 days of pre-clinic training (2 days with my training group and 3 days with the 12 clinic handlers) plus the 3 1/2 days of clinic. Before the clinic even started, the whining was gone and the creeping was down to front foot movement only. Being exposed to that trial-type environment for 8 straight days did wonders to settle the dog down.


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

When Randy finally comes clean with his advice, I'm betting he won't be talking so much about running a blind or doing some obedience drills, or any other sequence of events prior to going to the line at the trial. He'll be talking about NOT TEACHING the dog that there is a specified ROUTINE you follow that leads up to a huge, beautiful flyer.  After all, if you followed the regimen in his OP every time out, would the dog not BECOME CONDITIONED to leaving the holding blind, running 2 blinds, and THEN ... cue the noise ... sitting down (maybe) to watch the marks. Taking off the energy edge, shifting the mindset to one of control and teamwork, etc. are a part of the equation and will help, but won't the dog quickly learn your new routine? AND on trial day, it all goes out the window. These dogs ain't stupid. They know where they are.

There are a lot of things you can do in training to establish the "what are we going to do now" mindset when you leave the holding blind. Cold honors are great, for example. How about getting out of the truck, standing in the holding blind while the birds are shot for the running dog, then going back to the truck. As many times as it takes. Keep the dog guessing and only once in a while, do the standard ready, set, go sequence. Get creative.

And for those of you that don't get many opportunities to train in a group with a trial atmosphere, all the better. Take advantage of those precious group training days with the club to work on your weakness. So what if you drive 2 hours to the training day and your dog only gets one retrieve. GREAT! Are you there to show your buddies how your high rolling, high drive superdog can do that triple? Or are you there to train?

On the flip side, I had a nice dog from show breeding who's desire was adequate but I wanted to amp him up a little and get him a little more excited and focused on "out in the field". So how would you TEACH this dog to get excited? How about coming out of the blind, taking about 3 steps toward the line and BANG, out comes a nice rooster about 50 yds. out! Let him go as it hits the ground! How many of those would it take to get him whining when he hears "dog to the line"? Same kind of deal. Expectations and anticipation.

Remember that Pavlov guy? Think about it.

JS


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Let me try this. The whining is anticipation of running hard and fast for marks which is in itself rewarding. So this is not rewarded. Instead, the dog runs some blinds. The excitement and whining is not there but the reward of running after coming to the line quietly is there, thus the dog is rewarded with a run. Now the dog brings this to the line when running his marks. He has been reminded that good behavior at the line is rewarded with a run.

I think this is about what is rewarded and what isn't rewarded. Also, the behavior that is rewarded is the one that is most likely to recur---silence at the line.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

We all know or have heard about great dogs owned, trained, and handled by very good trainers that are or were a handful at a trial. Its not just newbies that have issues with high dogs.

Its difficult to get that right balance of control at the line and on blinds, while not overdoing it to the point where the dog is not relaxed enough to dig out the tough marks.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

I think it goes in line with the ideas of operant conditioning.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Some really good answers for all who answered...and nobody even side tracked the thread..
(Owner induced noisy dogs): there are many steps prior to taking the dog to the field that help control noise issues.
(Genetically noisy dogs): The more steam you can take out of the dog prior to throwing marks the better, blinds,cheating singles,casting drills, anything to keep the dog thinking about the job he's doing right now. Pretend your dog is a 10 yr. old kid with tons of energy and your on the way to the amusement park...excitement level is off the chart, now tell him to go run 2 miles before you go to the park and the ride is more enjoyable. You can help the noise at trials too by taking the time to do exercises off trial grounds, figure out your appr. time to run and have a friend call you if something happens in the running order. Show up to run in order and the edge is already off. Again there are many steps prior to the dog doing retrieves when they are here to fix noise issues, no marks for about 6-8 weeks, strict obedience all having the dog focusing on you the owner. Randy


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

FinnLandR said:


> How does one tell the difference between me screwing my dog up, and him being wired that way?


Cory, when you get a sound answe to thIs will you please share with me?


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Cory, it's hard initially but with time here watching and observing them you begin to put a program into the dog and see what pops out. The most recent fix just went home last week and very unsure what the cause was until I started working with him. I watched/heard this dog in derby and thought genetics BUT once he got here it was owner/stubborn induced noise. He was fixed up in about 4 weeks and turned out to be one of the easiest ones to keep quiet. On the other hand we have one of the top 3 all time noisiest dogs here in training and you need to be on top of him daily, he is a genetically noisy dog...very hard to cure.
I was helping a guy thru videos from California and so far it seems to be an owner induced noise issue because I gave him one obedience drill to do and most of the noise went away in a few days...Randy


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Randy, What do you see as the most common mistakes that us owners do to cause our dogs to be noisy? What do you have to do to fix the owners the most to help your training stick after the dog goes home?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Randy Bohn said:


> On the other hand we have one of the top 3 all time noisiest dogs here in training and you need to be on top of him daily, he is a genetically noisy dog...very hard to cure.
> I was helping a guy thru videos from California and so far it seems to be an owner induced noise issue because I gave him one obedience drill to do and most of the noise went away in a few days...Randy


Bohn man. Have you become the Non-Music Man? Eliminating trouble in River City? Keep up the good work.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Randy Bohn said:


> Some really good answers for all who answered...and nobody even side tracked the thread..
> (Owner induced noisy dogs): there are many steps prior to taking the dog to the field that help control noise issues.
> (Genetically noisy dogs): The more steam you can take out of the dog prior to throwing marks the better, blinds,cheating singles,casting drills, anything to keep the dog thinking about the job he's doing right now. Pretend your dog is a 10 yr. old kid with tons of energy and your on the way to the amusement park...excitement level is off the chart, now tell him to go run 2 miles before you go to the park and the ride is more enjoyable. You can help the noise at trials too by taking the time to do exercises off trial grounds, figure out your appr. time to run and have a friend call you if something happens in the running order. Show up to run in order and the edge is already off. Again there are many steps prior to the dog doing retrieves when they are here to fix noise issues, no marks for about 6-8 weeks, strict obedience all having the dog focusing on you the owner. Randy


Would this be the same medicine for a creeper? What kind of "exercises" would you do off the grounds before a trial?


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Good stuff Randy. Thanks for sharing.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

FinnLandR said:


> How does one tell the difference between me screwing my dog up, and him being wired that way?


If littermates of your dog and repeat breedings of the sire and dam all go on to greatness, and yours is still a numb chuck…... It may be you.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

My first two competitive dogs - who were littermates - FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie and FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker Power were a handful on the line. In part, that was due to genetics. In part, that was due to my inexperience as a handler.

Whenever I went to a field trial, I would find a field nearby and I would run pattern blinds before I ran - and after I ran. It helped take the edge off of them and make them manageable. 

I have not had any dogs as wild as those two since, but I have had a few that required obedience and wagon wheel drills in the morning. I make a point of noting on my GPS the fields that I can run blinds/marks on, and the school yards, parks, etc. where I can do obedience and wagon wheel drills in the morning.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Bob, one of the most important things to remember when you have a high strung dog is obedience...obedience...obedience.Most people rush home from work knock out a bunch of marks and call it a night, rushing gets you into trouble because the dog says hurry up and that's exactly what your doing (dog runs you)!! Randy


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Carol, put your dog at a remote sit about 10 yds. away from you on a long line. Make sure your dog stays facing forward and doesn't get up on a 360 degree walk around remote sit. If he gets up and tries to move....your probably the major part of your dogs issues.Randy

Charlie...creepers and breakers go thru a program also, the dog has no idea you exist and the program is designed to make your dog remember your there with him..
Basic lining drills are ok to do but they just take a little steam off the dogs erupting volcanoe of energy, try some casting drills mixing up overs and backs, they calm down alot better when you make them think...Randy


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Cory, that's a start


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I have a pup with Cosmo in the pedigree. I started with him doing obedience classes. His high energy level made these classes with all the other dogs present, hard for him to focus. If he did focus it was 5 minutes at most. I thought to myself what am I going to do. I spoke with Rick Stawski and he Emailed me. Obedience was key. FF and CC were important so you had tools to assist you when correcting. Following that advice I began training. While doing FF, I would do lining drills which seemed to relieve this pups high energy levels and give him something to do. Occasionally I slipped a mark in and no problems. I have gotten him to do single T and some swim by. It seems like he likes to do different things with a challenge. And now I have a friend assisting me and we are revisiting FF-tightening it up. It is a very long process folks and if I had thought I was going to run him in a test at 1 yo like my 2 yo did, I was dreaming! All that energy and talent I have had to slow down alot!!! Maybe by the time he is 2, he will be ready. So Randy thanks for the input!!!


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Great stuff, Randy. You need to check back in here more often. 

JS


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

If you need help cAll my cell #484 332 9781, most pm's are about your own dogs. If anyone needs help i'm going to ask you to send a video of the dog and yourself, it's the next best thing to being here. Randy


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Keeping a dog mentally challenged will typically help reduce noise. Handler speed contributes to it. Slow down and both need to focus

/paul


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## linbunting (Jan 18, 2012)

I am new to the "game" and this is an issue I have been dealing with. Taking energy from my dog seems to be key for taking the noise from him. Thank you all for your comments.


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