# playing while putting on an ecollar



## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Is anyone familiar with playing while putting on an ecollar? before you let a dog out. I know the obvious response is to tell the dog to stop, but eventually you have to enforce it, and if your dog is not soft it takes quite a bit. Both your hands are on the collar putting it on, and the enforcement fuels the play to certain degree and it is a powerful chain of events because there is reward at the end which is going for a walk, training etc...?


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

DL said:


> Is anyone familiar with playing while putting on an ecollar? before you let a dog out. I know the obvious response is to tell the dog to stop, but eventually you have to enforce it, and if your dog is not soft it takes quite a bit. Both your hands are on the collar putting it on, and the enforcement fuels the play to certain degree and it is a powerful chain of events because there is reward at the end which is going for a walk, training etc...?


Fido, sit........... and then put on collar if you intend to put an ecollar on. I put my dogs at sit before letting them out of their crate if I intend to put the collar on or not.


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

Agree with freezeland. Mine sit before they go outside, into the truck, out of the truck, get a treat, etc..and putting a collar on..


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I thought it was taken for granted I am having him sit before I put the collar on. I may have to post a video. He sits and puts his chin down and chews on whatever part of the collar he can get a hold of, and play growls.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Be quicker about it. Once you get it under the chin, he can't bite it. Just do it and move on. Don't make it an issue.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

You might try some food to get him to put his head up and let you put it on easier when he sees the collar coming...

He's probably not playing. More likely he doesn't want the collar on. One of the first things we do is teach the dog to put his head through the collar for a food reward. After the collar is on we do more food rewards and we don't immediately start using the collar. 

We want the dog to LOVE the collar and get excited when he sees it coming. Most retrievers learn that the collar = retrieving with no effort on the part of the trainer but in the pet world we have to be more specific about the association. 

Just something to think about if you're struggling.


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Forget the food, do what Captain said. Just be quicker, put it on and move on. This ain't rocket science it's dog training. Not every little speed bump requires grading the whole the road.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Migillicutty said:


> Forget the food, do what Captain said. Just be quicker, put it on and move on. This ain't rocket science it's dog training. Not every little speed bump requires grading the whole the road.




YEP, YESSIR! 
Just do it and don't let him do it, who's training who.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Yep, just strap that collar on and go! Kick him in the ass if you have to! We'll have none of that silly avoidance crap! 

It's a "play growl". The dog isn't pissed off? Nope, no way a growling dog would bite anyone. Just kick his ass and let's move on.

When Bart Bellon (look him up he's a world champion at Schutzund) stops using clickers/food and teaching dogs to love their equipment/work, I'll stop. 

In the retriever world I guess Pat Nolan is a hack in his early puppy work also (he uses food - voodoo).

Maybe when it's an 80 lb male GSD trying to take your arm off instead of just ducking his head - you'll think about alternatives to your plan.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Seems like much to do about nothing. Agree with Glenn. Mine see the ecollar and think great here comes some fun.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Learn to put it on with one hand while you hold a "sit encouragement device" in the other.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

DarrinGreene said:


> You might try some food to get him to put his head up and let you put it on easier when he sees the collar coming...
> 
> He's probably not playing. More likely he doesn't want the collar on. One of the first things we do is teach the dog to put his head through the collar for a food reward. After the collar is on we do more food rewards and we don't immediately start using the collar.
> 
> ...


I think this is well said, takes a little time but makes sense to me.
I guess I am from the other school, "let's get going", I'll set the collar to loop over the pups head, perhaps 2-3 notches too big and hold his ear to get his attention.... then slip it on and tighten as needed. They are not avoiding the collar just puppy head swinging some more than others.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Yep, just strap that collar on and go! Kick him in the ass if you have to! We'll have none of that silly avoidance crap!
> 
> It's a "play growl". The dog isn't pissed off? Nope, no way a growling dog would bite anyone. Just kick his ass and let's move on.
> 
> ...





Well first of all were not training to be a world champion Schitzund or 80 lb BFD's. Making a mountain out of a mole hill. All were doin here is putting a collar on a Labrador.


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Seems like much to do about nothing. Agree with Glenn. Mine see the ecollar and think great here comes some fun.



Agree

I am no expert at any of this, however, but I did learn along the way that the dog should see the collar as something FUN is about to happen - and it always does... So, if I reach for the eCollar, they KNOW we are going out to do what they love...

Gotta convince him collar = fun


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

gotta convince him to sit!


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Lurker so what do you do? Your venue?


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

> Well first of all were not training to be a world champion Schitzund or 80 BFD's. Making a mountain out of a mole hill. All were doin here is putting a collar on a Labrador.


X2 And no cookie required..


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

DarrinGreene said:


> Yep, just strap that collar on and go! Kick him in the ass if you have to! We'll have none of that silly avoidance crap!
> 
> It's a "play growl". The dog isn't pissed off? Nope, no way a growling dog would bite anyone. Just kick his ass and let's move on.
> 
> ...


Maybe when you stop trying the be the smartest guy on the block you'll figure out we don't give the south end of a northbound rat about your clickers and treats. Our dogs go get birds, and do a damn fine job of it. That's what we are training for, and making so much out of minuscule things is pointless, irrelevant and a down right waste of time. Train the dog and move on. 

The bird is reward enough regards,


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I'd like to see a video of the behavior.


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## blackasmollases (Mar 26, 2012)

I agree with the mountain out of a mole hill group! Put the collar on the dog and go! This is the wheat and chaff I've heard of LOL


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I'd like to see a video of the behavior.


I'll make one. I've got one but it isn't utterly ridiculous like it gets some times. My dog has a vocabulary.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I like the idea of setting the collar large and holding an ear.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Maybe when you stop trying the be the smartest guy on the block you'll figure out we don't give the south end of a northbound rat about your clickers and treats.


Exactly. Never had the problem. You're on the wrong forum to get all bent over putting a collar on.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

I really don't understand how "mountain out of molehill" applies here? It is very simple to teach a dog to sit motionless while the collar is put on if that's the standard set from the beginning. Not a mountainous task ... easy ... because, as you say, the pup is extremely motivated for the collar to be put on so the game can proceed. 

There is a pattern of defining and teaching standards for an excited dog throughout his training and performance journey with you. No need to climb mountains on that hike. I prefer to think of it as a pebble in your boot at the trail head. Take a minute to remove the pebble before hitting the trail or let a blister form that reminds you of that little pebble with every step you take.

Jim


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Damn, has the everyone is a winner mentality slude into dog training
Lasso the mfer and go to work, this thread can be described as nagging your dog to do something.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

I'm not going to worry about it too much. One part of the equation is my dog is mouthy. My hands were his toys. I am sure I'm not the first person not to teach there dog to put their mouth on human skin.

This is mild but inside where the lights are on so it is a better video:

https://youtu.be/oe-jxhkurps

This is outside but it is almost dark. My dog knows "sit straight" but I can't really enforce it anymore unless I use the ecollar because he cut his toe really deep on broken glass, and I'm not going to push on his toes when one of them is jacked. He will sit up from a laying down position on command also. It is not like he hasn't received some compulsion to sit in his life. I'm just looking for something I might be missing. I know I repeat commands too much (and other things), but I want to know he knows what he is suppose to be doing.

https://youtu.be/6lMIbluqhJ4


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Those vids showed basic disobedience. First thing you should stop doing is letting him come out of his pen to you or blow through doors ahead of you. You walk into the kennel like you own the place and then tell him sit. Enforce it. I don't care how. Slap on the ass, cuff under the chin, whatever. When the dog is sitting collar him and then remain in control.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Do you have a heeling stick? I think what you are missing is basic obedience.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Do you have a heeling stick? I think what you are missing is basic obedience.


I was JUST writing the same thing.
DL - work on obedience. Your dog does not view you as the leader. You won't hurt his feelings or ruin your working relationship with him. Be firm, be fair, be consistent.
Sit means sit - don't keep repeating yourself and don't nag him.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

hold the buckle in one hand , hold the other end in your other hand, go underneath the dogs head and then bring your hands over the dogs neck.....if he starts goofing off bring your hands together quickly and give a sharp upward correction "SIT" feed the end of the collar thru the buckle, if the dog goofs off , sharp upward correct "SIT" etc. etc , etc


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

moscowitz said:


> Lurker so what do you do? Your venue?



I work at a high school. Learning to train my two labs along the way. Take a bunch of pictures (my dogs, landscape, wildlife) and sell a few. ..and whatever my wife tells me to do!!

Erik


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> hold the buckle in one hand , hold the other end in your other hand, go underneath the dogs head and then bring your hands over the dogs neck.....if he starts goofing off bring your hands together quickly and give a sharp upward correction "SIT" feed the end of the collar thru the buckle, if the dog goofs off , sharp upward correct "SIT" etc. etc , etc


Thanks, I will try that.


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## John Condon (Mar 27, 2013)

Blessed to have a pup eager to get to business....could be much worse...


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

You guys know he is doing exactly what I described to begin with which is playing while I'm putting on the ecollar, and we aren't training in the video. I'm not disagreeing, I just wanted to point that out. I have the healing stick under my chin. I like the part about walking into the pen like I own it. The door pushes in too. I should aim for saying sit once. It is kinda like a mental block for me. Thanks.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

"SIT"..."put your collar on". Nothing to it for my dogs. They sit down and stick their neck out while I buckle it up.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Training begins with the first command given.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Lurker said:


> I work at a high school. Learning to train my two labs along the way. Take a bunch of pictures (my dogs, landscape, wildlife) and sell a few. ..and whatever my wife tells me to do!!
> 
> Erik


Parts of that sound cool.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Brad B said:


> "SIT"..."put your collar on". Nothing to it for my dogs. They sit down and stick their neck out while I buckle it up.


Your obedience must be better than mine. Why do you think mine is messed up? He basically sits when I tell him to sit.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

DL said:


> Your obedience must be better than mine. Why do you think mine is messed up? He basically sits when I tell him to sit.


Because you spend all your time worrying about grading the whole road for a little bump. Read the post on page 1 from Migillicutty.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

All puppies bite. But most are corrected for this when they are very, very young. You need to "unheal" the "heeling" stick and use it. But again I agree with Glenn and Cutty.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Some like to use a sledgehammer to crack a Nut,when often a Nutcracker is more than sufficient. 
Pick Your Battles rather than trying to win a war ?
So if it takes a touch reward /praise or a treat ,so what ?
The collar on the dog is just the same as getting a lead on a dog that fights it ?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)




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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Since you guy's need a program  to follow .


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Polmaise, Too funny


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

5 pages on how to put a collar on a dog....wow


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

And that's just a slip lead. The buckle makes it that much more complicated.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Brad B said:


> 5 pages on how to put a collar on a dog....wow


Brad I do think we need a program on this, perhaps Lardy might take it on......Oh what the hell, why don't you do it!


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## FGD Mike Smith (Jan 5, 2012)

Just sit the dog and put the collar on the dog. If he is fiddling around then you didn't teach him to sit right.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Brad B said:


> 5 pages on how to put a collar on a dog....wow


And it's only Jan. bound to get worse before the spring thaw..


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> And that's just a slip lead. The buckle makes it that much more complicated.



Now that's funny .
I reckon if doing a buckle is complicated it's gonna be real technical when the power is on


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Migillicutty said:


> Maybe when you stop trying the be the smartest guy on the block you'll figure out we don't give the south end of a northbound rat about your clickers and treats. Our dogs go get birds, and do a damn fine job of it. That's what we are training for, and making so much out of minuscule things is pointless, irrelevant and a down right waste of time. Train the dog and move on.
> 
> The bird is reward enough regards,


You (and the OP) don't have to listen to me, but I would appreciate being treated with the same level of basic respect that I give everyone else around here.

It's pretty rare that I criticize anyone's advice, unless you find me adding methods to the discussion as some form of criticism.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> You (and the OP) don't have to listen to me, but I would appreciate being treated with the same level of basic respect that I give everyone else around here.
> 
> It's pretty rare that I criticize anyone's advice, unless you find me adding methods to the discussion as some form of criticism.





> Yep, just strap that collar on and go! Kick him in the ass if you have to! We'll have none of that silly avoidance crap!
> 
> It's a "play growl". The dog isn't pissed off? Nope, no way a growling dog would bite anyone. Just kick his ass and let's move on.


 Failing to see respect here. What I see is a hissy fit because people disagree with you.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Migillicutty said:


> Maybe when you stop trying the be the smartest guy on the block you'll figure out we don't give the south end of a northbound rat about your clickers and treats. Our dogs go get birds, and do a damn fine job of it. That's what we are training for, and making so much out of minuscule things is pointless, irrelevant and a down right waste of time. Train the dog and move on.
> 
> The bird is reward enough regards,


Darrin, read this then re read it then re read it again
Now go think about it for a day or two, then come back and re read it again


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

polmaise said:


> Now that's funny .
> I reckon if doing a buckle is complicated it's gonna be real technical when the power is on


Only if you forget to turn on the collar before putting it on the dog. Cause then you gotta either start all over again, or try to find the button underneath the collar while it is on the dog.


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## sandcastles451 (Aug 4, 2015)

OH, boy, how did I miss all this....must have been because I was off affixing a leather collar. I really thought the clicker training would help the process go more smoothly...... My wife thought otherwise........


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

sandcastles451 said:


> OH, boy, how did I miss all this....must have been because I was off affixing a leather collar. I really thought the clicker training would help the process go more smoothly...... My wife thought otherwise........




Oh no! You have a leather collar? Well that's good for a whole new thread. Going to have to start a new one to keep from robbing the importance of this one


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

The guy just wanted some simple advice from a board where he thought he might get it. As a new member, makes me second guess asking a question. I am sure he can do without all the sarcasm. 

Go ahead - -give it to me...


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

oh, it says Senior member next to my name!! hahaha
I joined years ago, but did not participate. Was just checking it out back then...funny!! Just starting getting active last week!! hahaha


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

mjh345 said:


> Darrin, read this then re read it then re read it again
> Now go think about it for a day or two, then come back and re read it again


I don't need to read it again Mark. If putting a few pieces of kibble in your hand prior to putting a collar on a dog is that hard for people, then there's no talking to anyone about anything. Y'all are pretty unbelievable these days. Have a good winter.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Lurker said:


> The guy just wanted some simple advice from a board where he thought he might get it. As a new member, makes me second guess asking a question. I am sure he can do without all the sarcasm.
> 
> Go ahead - -give it to me...


Get a copy of Lardy and Hillman. Follow those. Become a good disciple and you will have no issue here. Leave your original thoughts (or those from any other venue/training system) at the door and all will be OK.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Failing to see respect here. What I see is a hissy fit because people disagree with you.


Maybe I expect people to take responsibility for their actions and not take their failures out on the dog. If a dog is f*cking about getting a collar put on the trainer obviously screwed up somewhere. Pretty much everyone said that in one way or another. Maybe I think a handful of kibble is a kinder way to make up for my own screw up than a heeling stick. Sorry about that.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Someone said 'it's so many pages to get a collar on a dog' . 
In text/open forum with so many different folk with different strokes that's probably fewer than I would expect in real life.
Probably /, The janitors reasons for those that post they should put their 'name to it'?..
Another thing that struck me was perceived entry level', by that I mean if mr or mrs x posted a reply with no previous known history then human nature dis-regards unless they are proficient and accurate with others participating in the discussion....but there also lies any-one that does not conform with the mass>? 

Entry Level :?..If some-one posts that they are having an issue getting a collar on a dog I'm pretty sure they are not at the level of Lardy ?> so quoting him or the process may require some other take on it ?

The others that sign in on the next level of entry (those that think they are Lardy) ..It's kinda pointless 'telling the OP what they should have done?) 
Those that post as next level entry against other next level entry posters are probably not helping merely 'justifying' themselves perhaps?

So I do things different ,so You do things different ?..So what. 
For the benefit of the OP 'Only' . ...A friend and colleague and Dog Trainer of all breeds posted this on a site I am a member of ,it's a good read for all if you have a mind for it.
It may help ?


Understanding the dog, do we??
We all want that trained dog, we all want it to go right, we all want to be able to take our dog or dog’s out without it pulling on the lead or running off. Why can’t we all have it then? Well we can if we try. We need to understand why things go wrong and why the dog has done what it has. To be frank, it is normally something you or someone else has done that has brought this behaviour out of your dog. This document is hopefully going to shine some light on things that you have done when training your dog and where you have trained an error into the dog without you knowing.
When we get a puppy we are all so existed to get the dog doing what we want as soon as possible. There are exceptions I know where a young dog of less than a year has been taken shooting and enjoyed a wonderful life in the shooting field, but this is my pet hate and no matter how many stories I here of the wonderful dog of 6 month old has been out sat in a pigeon hide for the day and enjoyed it, I will never agree and say it is the correct thing to do. We need to take time and build the foundations of your new puppy to ensure we do not struggle through our training. We need to understand how the dog thinks.
Let’s try and show you how we should be thinking when training a dog.
You ask your dog to sit and you walk away and your dog follows you. Is the dog being disobedient or does it just want to be with you?
Your dog pulls on the lead and you pull it back and shout heel, are you asking the dog to heel with shouting a command? Should the command be a nice word?
When your dog is running off and you are shouting its name are you just confirming you are still there to the dog?
If we try to understand our actions and the dog’s reactions maybe we could all train our dogs a little better.
Let’s take a look at heel work; this is a particular training issue with a lot of people. Your dog is doing fine with all other aspects of training but the lead work is so bad you are sick of it. What is going wrong? The dog walks better off lead than on and it is really spoiling a walk out in the park. We should look at what is happening. Most dogs see the lead come out of and it is out time. The dog is so excited it is jumping up and down and knows it is off out for a blast. Our normal reaction is to say calm down or shout at the dog for jumping around like it has not seen you for a year. The more we say or do the dog just does not listen. We then get the dog on the lead and off we go with the dog pulling your arm out and you shouting heel! heel! You bloody thing if you don’t heel we are off back. You are such a bad dog. The dog continues to pull like a train you get to the end of the garden path open the gate and turn in your normal direction to the field or park. The dog just will not give up, pull, pull, pull. The more it happens the more you shout. You eventually end up at your place of walk or training ground you tell the dog to sit you let it off the lead and say go play or get on or whatever command you use. You are thinking what a little rascal if only it would walk nice for me we would go out more often.
Let’s rewind and start again and look at how we can resolve this issue. If you remember the dog started to jump around as soon as the lead was in sight.
Step one, put the lead away and sit back down. If this is the trigger then we need to sort it out. First thing we need to do is address the trigger of this behaviour and ignoring your dog’s behaviour and putting the lead away is far better than having a conversation with it telling it to calm down.
Step two once the dog calms down we can then get the lead out and try again. This will have to be repeated many times for it to work. When the dog is finally calm we can place the lead on the dog and approach the door and ask it to sit. We exit the house or kennel.
Step three the dog begins to pull, stop don’t say anything and wait till the dog relaxes before moving on. At this point the dog may be jumping up and down but stay still. When the dog is calm again move on. Again this will need to be repeated until resolved.
Step four you have always exited your property and turned towards the park or field this time we will turn the opposite direction and immediately the dog is working on your terms. You are going where you want not where it wants. The dog then starts to pull when its confidence grows and then you repeat step three continue this because in a dogs mind all they want to do is get to the furthest point.
Step five you have reached your place of training or walk and you ask the dog to sit. This time we will walk forward again then ask the dog to sit. Again we are getting the dog to do what we want not the other way round. Do this several times the dog will start to relax more and not think stopping is another trigger.
Step six get the dog to sit and lower your hand and loosen the lead. The dog will again think it is a trigger to go. Stand back up and walk on some more. Do not remove the lead; continue to do this until we have a calm dog again. We can now get the dog to sit and remove the lead but be ready to replace it straight away. Walk on again several steps; get the dog to sit and remove the lead again. Put the lead back on and walk on again. When you are confidant the dog is steady you may then let it have its play.
Understanding the dog is so important and our actions are key to every reaction from the dog.
Ensure you think of each training segment like this and you will see how easy it is to really understand the dog.


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

Hmm. Thanks for the advice. 

Is this board particular to one type of training? I did not realize that. That can't be. I have taken a bit from here and there and use what has worked for me. I really like Hillman's videos. I try various things and stick with what I think works best for me. EVERY single trainer that I have read state the same thing - be consistent. Once I find a technique that I like and I think shows results, I am consistent with it. I really don't think there is any right way. The 'right way' seems to change every so often. You know what Gierach wrote: If you fish the wrong fly long and hard enough, it will sooner or later become the right fly.


I will be honest, I don't think my two dogs will measure up to those that belong to most people on this board, but they will go get a duck and bring it back.. But then again, I have not seen any 'real' duck dogs (gun dogs, whatever term/phrase might be appropriate on this board) other than the ones in videos. None of my friends duck hunt. 

However, I was contacted by a member here who lives very close and hopefully we cant get together. So, that's cool!!




Erik


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

polmaise Outstanding.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow, "....hopefully cant get together". Is that what you meant Lurker?


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

hahaha - nope!! Thanks for catching that! Whew!! But, that's ok, I am not being graded...

Erik


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Love it Robert . Very well said.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Get a copy of Lardy and Hillman. Follow those. Become a good disciple and you will have no issue here. Leave your original thoughts (or those from any other venue/training system) at the door and all will be OK.


Agree with Darrin 100% on this one!

Now once you train a dog worthy of breathing the same air as one of Hillmann's or Lardy's critters, well then by all means share your original thoughts.

Edit: forgot smiley face.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

captainjack said:


> Agree with Darrin 100% on this one!
> 
> Now once you train a dog worthy of breathing the same air as one of Hillmann's or Lardy's critters, well then by all means share your original thoughts.
> 
> Edit: forgot smiley face. ��


Or doing it while breathing your own air ? Surely that's the intention from those mentioned ? lol ...forgot smiley face


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

I thought we got off the serious stuff and were working on a new fun video.... No need to throw stones.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Well I for one saw some positive. Marc and Glenn agreed on something. Hahalol.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Well I for one saw some positive. Marc and Glenn agreed on something. Hahalol.


This big snow storm must've made its way south WAY WAY SOUTH!


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## 1goodog (May 3, 2013)

My guy's tail wags at light speed when he see's his e-collar in my hands. Fun-time! I get him out of his crate--sit him on my tailgate and say "TILT." IE -while i adjust, he knows I want him sitting with his head parallel with the ground. Its all about making sure your dog knows a great game lays on the other side of putting on his "work clothes." 
If your focus is fun --learning his lesson's along the way isn't such a huge task.

Take a look at Bill Hillmann's YouTube channel and blog at www.hawkeyemedia.net Great starting place.


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

Agree 100%.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

captainjack said:


> Agree with Darrin 100% on this one!
> 
> Now once you train a dog worthy of breathing the same air as one of Hillmann's or Lardy's critters, well then by all means share your original thoughts.
> 
> Edit: forgot smiley face.


Now who wants to be the smartest guy in the room?

Nothing original about a friggin band full of kibble to get a dog to enjoy a task. For God's sake you guys just can't handle anything other then your own BS.

I don't claim to be Lardy JR and I restrict my post to BASIC OBEDIENCE topics, which I have quite a lot of experience with. Far more than most of the people we see posting here (yourself included Glen, unless you've trained a few hundred dogs I don't know about). 

You guys have at it. I'm sure Mike and Bill appreciate the constant ass kissing.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Lurker said:


> Hmm. Thanks for the advice.
> 
> Is this board particular to one type of training? I did not realize that. That can't be.
> 
> Erik


Oh believe me - it IS slanted several ways.

Rules for RTF: posting training advice and retaining credibility:

1. You must either - successfully train hunting test or FT dogs OR preach the program of someone who does (read Lardy or Hillman).
2. Never understand the psychological details of what you're preaching - just follow the program.
3. Ignore and/or openly chastise any advice given that does not align with your beliefs system (as defined by Lardy or Hillman). 

There have been many folks run off the forum who trained more dogs in a week than most of the advice givers have trained in a lifetime (there's about to be one more of those). The common thread there is that they were not "retriever trainers", in that they may have trained thousands but never for FT or HT. The second common thread is that they didn't always subscribe to the accepted "programs" of the forum. 

The only reason out English/Scottish friends get away with posting is either because no one understands the language they use or... they are successful in their own right at home. Look back though, and you'll find a bunch of arguments over the years about the European vs. American methods, mostly citing the fact that the methods aren't interchangeable because of differences in the games. That's pure and simple bullshit but hey - it's how the place rolls.

At the end of the day each and every one of the folks posting has the good intention of trying to help others. It's just a shame that they sometimes get so hung up in what they personally believe that they wear blinders. 

I've experienced this not only on RTF but in a professional setting with over 100 trainers working toward the same goal. There was ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS infighting over how to train a given dog. The people who won were usually those with the supposed experience and many good ideas went by the wayside right in front of our eyes, unless they were put forward by the correct individuals. 

So Erik - if you want to accept your place as a "know nothing" and get in line behind some folks who supposedly "know something" about retriever training - you'll fit right in.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

DarrinGreene said:


> Now who wants to be the smartest guy in the room?
> 
> Nothing original about a friggin band full of kibble to get a dog to enjoy a task. For God's sake you guys just can't handle anything other then your own BS.
> 
> ...





DarrinGreene said:


> Oh believe me - it IS slanted several ways.
> 
> Rules for RTF: posting training advice and retaining credibility:
> 
> ...


Geez, Darrin. Get snowed in or something?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Poor Darren. Some disagree with him and it hurts.
Dude you are so full of yourself. This is a retriever training forum not a PetSmart training forum and like it or not training retrievers is different than teaching a PetSmart class. All anyone has done here is disagree with you when you make a huge issue out of putting a collar on a dog or teaching a dog to sit. Why are you getting so upset about this? Man pretty simple stuff but evidently it's something that requires a PHD in dog psychology. Again making a mountain out of a mole hill.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I've experienced this not only on RTF but in a professional setting with over 100 trainers working toward the same goal. There was ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS infighting over how to train a given dog.


 Nice to know we aren't the only ones that find you full of yourself. Do you use the Bulls**t word there too to get attention? You don't have to over-analyze and micromanage to train a dog. Wasn't it Lardy that said he didn't need to know the quadrants to know what works.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

For those of you who's dogs sit, relaxed and stock-still at the command I'm sure this does seem like a non-issue. For those of us who's dogs vibrate with intensity and excitement at the slightest mention of training, it is something that merits discussion IMO.

I clicked on this thread because I too have a young dog who gets so excited when he sees his collar come out that he nearly does backflips. Although I'm sure he's trying to help me get his collar on, he's not a very good helper. Getting him to sit still enough to get it adjusted to the proper tightness is not easy and I don't want to beat him into submission right before heading out for a fun and positive training session. Can I get it on him? Yes. Can I do it without creating any stress or negativity (or an ass-whooping)? We're working on that

What I've been doing is simply sitting there for as long as it takes to get him settled. Every time he wiggles and thrashes about I pull back the collar, delaying the process that he's trying to speed up.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

MNHunter said:


> For those of you who's dogs sit, relaxed and stock-still at the command I'm sure this does seem like a non-issue. For those of us who's dogs vibrate with intensity and excitement at the slightest mention of training, it is something that merits discussion IMO.
> 
> I clicked on this thread because I too have a young dog who gets so excited when he sees his collar come out that he nearly does backflips. Although I'm sure he's trying to help me get his collar on, he's not a very good helper. Getting him to sit still enough to get it adjusted to the proper tightness is not easy and I don't want to beat him into submission right before heading out for a fun and positive training session. Can I get it on him? Yes. Can I do it without creating any stress or negativity (or an ass-whooping)? We're working on that
> 
> What I've been doing is simply sitting there for as long as it takes to get him settled. Every time he wiggles and thrashes about I pull back the collar, delaying the process that he's trying to speed up.


You are figuring out your dog's triggers. That is the first step... and you have begun dealing with them; that is the second step. Polmaise's post about triggers and dog behavior is really poignant and you would be well advised to read it several times thru.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

To those who want to make putting a collar on seem like brain surgery, I would suggest that if you don't have enough knowledge to figure how to put a collar on a dog,
YOU SURE SHOULDN"T BE USING AN ECOLLAR!!!!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

mjh345 said:


> I would suggest that if you don't have enough knowledge to figure how to put a collar on a dog,
> YOU SURE SHOULDN"T BE USING AN ECOLLAR!!!!


So you knew how to do it first time right off the bat' ? That's pure natural ability right there!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Well yeah. Pre collar conditioning with my deceased dog Hudson, I was out of town a lot. I would have my wife put the ecollar on him once a day for 30 minutes or so. She has never trained a dog in her life. I just told her how tight to make the ecollar. She figured out the rest on her own.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Nice to know we aren't the only ones that find you full of yourself. Do you use the Bulls**t word there too to get attention? You don't have to over-analyze and micromanage to train a dog. Wasn't it Lardy that said he didn't need to know the quadrants to know what works.


I suggested a few pieces of kibble in your hand while putting a dog's collar on... rocket science I tell ya! rocket science!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Well yeah. Pre collar conditioning with my deceased dog Hudson, I was out of town a lot. I would have my wife put the ecollar on him once a day for 30 minutes or so. She has never trained a dog in her life. I just told her how tight to make the ecollar. She figured out the rest on her own.


Yea, I get a few 'Horse Trainers' that have dogs and can't get ''heel'' right !?...Probably because those 'Horse trainers' have never 'broke' a horse ?..They get them 'ready made' already with a bridle and saddle ?......
Then they say they are 'Horse trainers' ? 
Your wife may or may not be like the OP' ?...


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I suggested a few pieces of kibble in your hand while putting a dog's collar on... rocket science I tell ya! rocket science!


If the handler can't figure out how to put a collar, adding kibble to the mix will probably lead to the dog jumping at his hands for kibble like in the clicker trainer video. Take the time to teach sit and sit means sit, not to screw around.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Steve Shaver said:


> Poor Darren. Some disagree with him and it hurts.
> Dude you are so full of yourself. This is a retriever training forum not a PetSmart training forum and like it or not training retrievers is different than teaching a PetSmart class. All anyone has done here is disagree with you when you make a huge issue out of putting a collar on a dog or teaching a dog to sit. Why are you getting so upset about this? Man pretty simple stuff but evidently it's something that requires a PHD in dog psychology. Again making a mountain out of a mole hill.


Pretty simple Steve - because there's more to training a dog than the "just follow the program" "I don't see the issue" "You didn't do your basics thoroughly enough" answers that are often given to people struggling with mundane tasks. I think you guys all know that but for whatever reason if my advice doesn't align with a program I'm wrong? I don't get it. Really, I keep coming back because I don't get why anyone would argue with a handful of kibble as an aid in putting a collar on a dog. It's pretty simple stuff really.

I'm not hurt by any of the comments you guys make about me personally. I study these things in minute detail so I can teach people who know literally nothing about a dog how to train one. I guess that makes me detail oriented and thorough? I don't know what the problem is. Trust me, it's not that I'm full of myself. I am constantly looking for mentors on certain things that I need help with. Putting a collar on a dog or sitting with handler in motion aren't on that list but there is plenty of stuff I need more experience/help with. In fact, if I were going to get into advanced retriever work I would need help with that. But we're not talking about advanced retriever work when we argue. We're talking about basic obedience, which is where I live 60 hours a week or so. 

I keep telling myself you guys just don't see what I see on a regular basis if you're training half decently bred retrievers for field work. I don't quite know how to get that across to folks so they can understand WHY I view things the way I do and why any advice I give is detail oriented and sometimes technical.

Great example - I walk into a home with a single mom of two kids under 10 who has an American Bulldog puppy 12 weeks old. Puppy barks and backs away from me. When I turn my back he begins to advance. This is a typical reaction from a fearful dog. So, if you have every played with an American Bulldog you know they can be 60 lb of explosive power without much of a warning. They aren't always very clear headed and can do a lot of damage with a single bite. There I am with a fearful 12 week old puppy and a woman who loves him and has no clue she's sitting on a potential powder keg with two small kids running around. At that point, if I want to save the kids from getting bitten (or worse) and keep the dog alive, I had better have studied and know what the heck I'm doing. There's a lot more to raising this puppy than your normal happy go lucky retriever. Socialization is different and handling is very different. The need for lots and lots of positive experiences is obvious but it is much more pronounced than with a clear headed, emotionally stable dog. This lady has her work cut out for her and it's up to me to guide her properly. It's not simple by any stretch of the imagination. Pup is doing great after a couple of weeks but we will see what happens when he hits puberty. Hopefully the guidance I give will be technically sound, well thought out and thoroughly explained, so that she has a chance of succeeding.

Another great example is actually a 2 year old CLM. Very fearful dog and aggressive with strangers. Bit a buddy of mine from retriever club twice while he was busy "exerting his dominance" over the dog. Soft hearted owners with no clue at all how to work with a dog. When I walked in they were having a complete conversation in human terms with him about me being a friend. 

This is the stuff I deal with every day. This is why I have studied and thought through these issues. This is why I have dog friendly and people friendly options available for solving problems. 

I can't tell the average pet owner "you didn't teach him to sit right, here's a heeling stick... now, if he gives you any crap putting his collar on you say "sit" and slap him in the ass with it." People won't follow through on that instruction, period, end of story. It's my guess that some of the posters here who ask such basic questions fall into the same camp and benefit from some of these "dog friendly" approaches. 

It would be nice though, if I could post them without having to take a lot of crap from you guys. Really, what have I ever posted that was harmful to a dog or owner?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Darrin and Polmaise have one thing in common with my wife. I never get the last word in. Hahalol.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> If the handler can't figure out how to put a collar, adding kibble to the mix will probably lead to the dog jumping at his hands for kibble like in the clicker trainer video. Take the time to teach sit and sit means sit, not to screw around.


You may be right in an isolated case Nancy, but having cupped a dog's chin with kibble in my hand about 100 times the last couple of years, that's not what usually happens. Once I have the e-collar on - sit means sit becomes one heck of a lot easier. 

It's just a trick I use. That's all. I'm not sure why it drives people taking pot shots at me.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> If the handler can't figure out how to put a collar, adding kibble to the mix will probably lead to the dog jumping at his hands for kibble like in the clicker trainer video. Take the time to teach sit and sit means sit, not to screw around.


Yes ! ..But only if you with hold it ?..Now that would dumb?
Now what if you actually gave it immediately when the dog was actually 'sitting' ? ..Hmmm ? 
You can 'screw around ' all you want . 
That darn dawg that 'doesn't know sit' , Is gonna 'Sit' if it get's 'sit' right  ...unless you 'screw around with it' ?
lol .
'Shaping behaviour' is Fun for someone like me ...
It's never actually getting the complete result , only the right part of the process to the 'end result' .

Dismissing the handler because they can't do what You can do is 'dismissive and darn right rude' !..adding that a tool such as kibble or any other is saying 'your way is the only way' ?..saying 'it will lead to' is like saying you have done this ?> Have you ?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

MNHunter said:


> For those of you who's dogs sit, relaxed and stock-still at the command I'm sure this does seem like a non-issue. For those of us who's dogs vibrate with intensity and excitement at the slightest mention of training, it is something that merits discussion IMO.
> 
> I clicked on this thread because I too have a young dog who gets so excited when he sees his collar come out that he nearly does backflips. Although I'm sure he's trying to help me get his collar on, he's not a very good helper. Getting him to sit still enough to get it adjusted to the proper tightness is not easy and I don't want to beat him into submission right before heading out for a fun and positive training session. Can I get it on him? Yes. Can I do it without creating any stress or negativity (or an ass-whooping)? We're working on that
> 
> What I've been doing is simply sitting there for as long as it takes to get him settled. Every time he wiggles and thrashes about I pull back the collar, delaying the process that he's trying to speed up.


If you put it on and off him a few times a day and DON'T give any rewards immediately afterward... he will not get so excited about you putting it on. 

As an example: I routinely have people record and "ring" their door bell while their puppies are focused on eating... Doesn't take long and they don't get all agitated about the door. When there's no exciting person attached, suddenly, you don't get the "over the top" reaction anymore. They usually run to their food bowl instead! Same as the old "cap gun while their eating" routine people have used for decades to create positive associations to gun fire.

I have them let pup drag a leash around a lot too. Prevents it from becoming a signal for a (exciting) walk. Long run, makes it much easier to get on and off. 

Simple stuff. Just requires a little forethought.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Lots of time to learn how to sit before the e-collar starts going on. I'm not into using treats other than with young pups for here, sit. I don't want the pups to be concentrating on my hands when learning new tasks anticipating a treat. The retrieve has long replaced the treat before the e-collar starts going on, and they are sitting to put the puppy collar on with the check cord when they are baby pups. I'm not training other peoples dogs that are screwed up, I'm training my own.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> Lots of time to learn how to sit before the e-collar starts going on. I'm not into using treats *other than with young pups for here, sit*.


Think that's what the OP ' is at ? 
So what you do after is superfluous to what the OP does at this stage .


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Lots of time to learn how to sit before the e-collar starts going on. I'm not into using treats other than with young pups for here, sit. I don't want the pups to be concentrating on my hands when learning new tasks anticipating a treat. The retrieve has long replaced the treat before the e-collar starts going on, and they are sitting to put the puppy collar on with the check cord when they are baby pups. I'm not training other peoples dogs that are screwed up, I'm training my own.


Same here with my personal dogs Nancy.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Polmaise do you understand the level of the training cycle this dog is in? I would suggest that you look at some of the OPs previous posts.
He was talking about nicking the dog with ecollar last March. So has he been putting the collar on and off for 9 months or more? 
Opps. He started ecollar conditioning in Nov 2014. So he has been putting ecollar off and on for over a year.
Maybe that's why some of us have been a little short.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Maybe if he'd have followed the program better ... :razz:


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes, I think that is true.


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Polmaise do you understand the level of the training cycle this dog is in? I would suggest that you look at some of the OPs previous posts.
> He was talking about nicking the dog with ecollar last March. So has he been putting the collar on and off for 9 months or more?
> Opps. He started ecollar conditioning in Nov 2014. So he has been putting ecollar off and on for over a year.
> Maybe that's why some of us have been a little short.


The heeling stick seems to be the best thing for my issue. Saying "no" or "quiet" or "Sit straight" and correcting for that is not as good as just saying "sit" and using the stick. Now I know. Another lesson learned. One step closer to greatness. Thanks.


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## sandcastles451 (Aug 4, 2015)

“MNHunter” For those of you who's dogs sit, relaxed and stock-still at the command I'm sure this does seem like a non-issue. For those of us who's dogs vibrate with intensity and excitement at the slightest mention of training, it is something that merits discussion IMO. 

MNHunter, great point, and perhaps there are other people with the goal of creating a dog that vibrates with intensity and excitement, others who are are just trying to bottles what they have when appropriate,while stoking the fire otherwise. Some of the goals of a hunter might differ from a trial dog or a pet that retrieves in a park but we all share some fundamental common goals. Most of us share a common goal for an On/OFF Switch to different degrees of intensity and control.

The art is knowing what science, applied precisely when all along the puppies/dogs life creates not only the immediate desired behavior,but lays foundation and groundwork for what you might be asking the dog to learn even years later. None of us are perfect at either the art or the science, but a good, consistent, informed attempt and our dogs forgive us!

Lurker,since this was just after my comment 
“The guy just wanted some simple advice from a board where he thought he might get it. As a new member, makes me second guess asking a question. I am sure he can do without all the sarcasm. “ 
Me,
OH,boy, how did I miss all this....must have been because I was off affixing a leather collar. I really thought the clicker training would help the process go more smoothly...... My wife thought otherwise..... 
I'm all for helping the original poster and this wasn't in any way directed at him. This was a not so subtle (to some) remark that dogs are very complex, intelligent, perceptive individuals, in many ways as much as a human, and kibble and clickers are not a be all panacea for solving all training and behavioral issues. They can work for some, and some impressive results kibble esp with young pups) and shaping certain behaviors, but no amount of clicker training will cause my wife to laugh at my same stupid joke, over and over. (or really.. do those other things she's not in the mood to do!!)

Darrin”_The only reason out English/Scottish friends get away with posting _ is...... rather simple......they have something (very occasionally!!)to offer like polmaise's post #62 or his video post in another thread of using a clicker as his personal choice to shape some behaviors (although I'd enjoy if he shared what % of his training involved that specific tool and what % involved a simple verbal marker or a caring touch)

Polmaise,62# awesome, many of us do similar with young pups and I'm glad you took the time to explain it and detail the steps in a useful wayothers can decide/or not to try, maybe depending on the individual dogs needs.

Darrin, For me at least it's not simply about a little kibble.....Darrin “2.Never understand the psychological details of what you're preaching -just follow the program.” To me, this theme has been reflectivef many of your comments in this and other threads. 

And again
Darrin“3. Ignore and/or openly chastise any advice given that does not align with your beliefs system (as defined by Lardy or Hillman). Lardy didn't define it, certainly he tweaked, but more importantly he organized it in a way and made it accessible so a regular person could implement it, and even use it if they later decide they desired a pro retriever trainer. Many others also offer similar good ones.

You say we don't understand the Psychological details. The call on whether or not and to what amount this dog needs to be trained in a process, versus the dog needs to actually learn the bigger picture is key to this dog's long term success if the OP wants a well rounded retriever. The dog needs both. I don't pass judgment on Polmaise's IMO excellent technique for a young dog. Versus how someone else handles another older dog. This dog has an issue, a hole in it'straining bigger than just a collar, There is no concrete answer to address both the immediate and foundations for the future, but as I'd imagine this owner won't be happy simply conquering this collar issue , IMO it's time to incorporate both.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

sandcastles451 said:


> Darrin,For me at least it's not simply about a little kibble.....Darrin “2.Never understand the psychological details of what you're preaching -just follow the program.” To me, this theme has been reflective of many of your comments in this and other threads.


Really? Because if I posted an article on triggers as it relates to this thread I would have gotten pummeled for making things "too complicated". My day is triggers and reactions and changing dog's expectations of outcomes. That's how behavior modification (50% or more of my business) works. I couldn't feed myself if I didn't understand the psychology of not only the dog but the person doing the training. 

Some people may have an issue taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around because he's excited to get his collar put on. I offered an alternative solution to "increase your obedience standard" aka correct him. So what exactly is the big deal? Darrin offered the suggestion, that's all. Polmaise can say the exact same thing and people thank him for it. If I wrote that piece on triggers I would have gotten laughed at.

Maybe I think the dog needs to learn to think then he's in that high state of drive instead of being knocked out of it with a correction? Maybe... just maybe I think that a field retriever needs to know how to make good decisions when he's high as a kite in the fourth with 4 fliers going off. Maybe I think he needs to learn to make these decisions without training visual training equipment (think heeling stick in hand). Maybe I think a lot of things but I'm tired of arguing with you guys so I'm going to give you all your way. 

You've succeeded.


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

*******************************************************************
Alright. one last thing I do. No program. Just me, observing my dogs. 

Labs, for whatever reason, seem to like going between peoples legs, esp. when saying hello. (My neighbor, an old school retired vet, told me Labs seem to have this habit more so than other breeds). Anyhow, both of my labs, if I close my legs just a bit, will push their heads between my legs and then I pet their head and scratch their ears. Both of them love it. Will stand their for as logn as I pet/scratch them - pressing against me. Funny dogs. Anyhow, I bought their eCollars when they were puppies. The instructions that came with the collars stated that the collar should be put on while the dog is standing up to get the correct tightness. I don't think that point has been brought up, yet. Just came to me. 

So, what I started doing, was scratching their head while they leaned into me, and then put the collar on. No fight, no nothing. They still do it - two years later.

Erik - pro-collar-putter-oner!!!!!


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## sandcastles451 (Aug 4, 2015)

I know I should just leave it at GOOOD.

But I can't stand this type of comment left hanging for any lurker striving for good informed guidance...

"Some people may have an issue taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around because he's excited to get his collar put on. "

Where in Lardy, Graham, Stawski,Hillman, Akin, Voight and on and on, ever... ever advocate just "taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around"
The words "taking a heeling stick to a dog" are loaded and only serve to show, either your confusion, your inability to illustrate the actual concept or your direct intention to mislead, at the very least, on what the foundations are about. Yeah That's what we do in stick fetch...... really take it to our very high priced, loved and cherished enough to actually have an owner that cares about the dogs development, Yes, that must be the very foundations of these programs....

If more people followed the sound programs of their choice,,,,and tried to understand the building process, how to apply it to serve their very unique dog, and how it all comes together, you'd sure have a lot less employment


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

WOW!


Just.......... WOW!

Edit: Lurker, I'm glad you are getting the collar issue under control.


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## Lurker (Dec 17, 2013)

Gauge123 hahahaha, you're funny. hahahaha


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

sandcastles451 said:


> If more people followed the sound programs of their choice,,,,and tried to understand the building process, how to apply it to serve their very unique dog, and how it all comes together, you'd sure have a lot less employment


Very true statement right back to choosing the correct dog for their family, which a good number fail at. 

I'm the bandaid on the brain surgery. 

That said, I've done a few retrievers through basics. Three of my own and a few for others as well as being a part of training a few dozen under other accomplished trainers. I know how the program works and I know what results one should expect 9 mos post collar conditioning. 

Again - sorry for trying to add to the discussion in a way other than the book dictates. 

I will refrain from here on in believe me.

BTW - since you seem to have such in depth knowledge, why don't you post your name with your handle so people know where to go when they need advice. Easy to criticize when people have no idea who you are.


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## sandcastles451 (Aug 4, 2015)

Darrin,I like many here, use kibble, especially with young pups, same as you.
I feel a healing stick, in the wrong hands, without the proper foundations, can be devastating to a dog. I feel (and it's just my opinion) that it is possible for some followers of any program to misinterpret when to teach, when to deal with confusion and when to correct and to make the correction appropriate for the issue.

What I criticize is your stream of innuendos
“instead of being knocked out of it with a correction?” 

“ I offered an alternative solution to "increase your obedience standard" aka correct him. "
Meaning all on here looking to increase an obedience standard are “aka correcting him.

“Some people may have an issue taking a heeling stick to a dog who is just playing around because he's excited“ “
and I could go on with examples from other threads.

Perhaps your actual experience was with a trainer that did these things?
I find it hard to believe that someone who knows the program (not sure if you mean a specific one or just in general) and how it works would say"Maybe I think the dog needs to learn to think then he's in that high state of drive instead of being knocked out of it with a correction? Maybe... just maybe I think that a field retriever needs to know how to make good decisions when he's high as a kite in the fourth with 4 fliers going off." 

I respect opinions, I don't respect your innuendo laden attacks


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

sandcastles451 said:


> Darrin,I like many here, use kibble, especially with young pups, same as you.
> I feel a healing stick, in the wrong hands, without the proper foundations, can be devastating to a dog. I feel (and it's just my opinion) that it is possible for some followers of any program to misinterpret when to teach, when to deal with confusion and when to correct and to make the correction appropriate for the issue.
> 
> What I criticize is your stream of innuendos
> ...


Still don't know who you are.......


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> You may be right in an isolated case Nancy, but having cupped a dog's chin with kibble in my hand about 100 times the last couple of years, that's not what usually happens. Once I have the e-collar on - sit means sit becomes one heck of a lot easier.
> 
> It's just a trick I use. That's all. I'm not sure why it drives people taking pot shots at me.


So the newbies you are teaching HAVE NOT done this 100's of times RIGHT???
Then why not rely on teaching these neophytes no frills basics and leave the kibble and confusion in the bag?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

mjh345 said:


> So the newbies you are teaching HAVE NOT done this 100's of times RIGHT???
> Then why not rely on teaching these neophytes no frills basics and leave the kibble and confusion in the bag?


Because the average person looks at their family pet like a child or another family member. A few hunks of kibble while putting a collar on doesn't create any confusion Mark. It's really stupid easy to get the dog to lay his chin in the palm of your hand once he finds kibble there 50 or so times. It's just a solution that works and was incremental to what had been presented. I wasn't expecting an argument over it. 

I said before, it's just a dumb trick to get rid of a dumb problem so we can move on to bigger things we need to accomplish (like establishing a firm basis of obedience).


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

sandcastles451 said:


> Darrin,I like many here, use kibble, especially with young pups, same as you.
> I feel a healing stick, in the wrong hands, without the proper foundations, can be devastating to a dog. I feel (and it's just my opinion) that it is possible for some followers of any program to misinterpret when to teach, when to deal with confusion and when to correct and to make the correction appropriate for the issue.
> 
> What I criticize is your stream of innuendos
> ...


Actually - if you read back through the responses to the thread, a heeling stick was suggested, choking the dog with an unbuckled collar as suggested, increasing overall obedience was suggested (that's usually corrective in here). 

The comment about teaching a dog to think when he's high goes well beyond anything you'll see in any of those programs. Not that those authors don't understand it but I don't recall it being addressed anywhere. It came from a guy whose done basics for many FC retrievers and a bunch of good Schutzund dogs also. He was my mentor for a year or so 50 hours a week. Great dog man with a lifetime of experience. It refers to teaching the dog while he's in an excited state so his muscle memory doesn't erode. 

Usually - when you're using a heeling stick, choke chain or other implement of discomfort, you are either knocking dog completely out of drive or his excitement down quite a bit. Then when the tools go away and the excitement rises the behavior starts to degrade. It's the same concept as the collar wise dog. He's contins himself with the collar on out of caution but when it comes off he goes buck wild. Eventually - through repetition - you get that same dog to behave with no tools but obviously, this one isn't here yet if we can't get the collar on him in the first place.

Since there's no tools on this dog (we're trying to put a collar on), it makes sense (to me) to rely on methods that he will do when he is bat **** crazy with excitement and I have no way of influencing his drive level. 

Conditioning my open hand to mean "put your chin here and get rewarded" is a very simple thing to do that eliminates any problem with putting collars on and off, checking teeth etc. etc. It's really stupid easy. Just show him your hand wiith a few kibbles in the palm 50 or so times and he'll pretty much put his chin there (and give you control of his muzzle) every time.

I do a lot of what people would think is dumb with pups. Some if it is stuff people here would do and some isn't. Examples: Have them drag a leash in the house so they don't get excited about it when it comes out. Don't let them come and go from doors that don't have a secondary means of containment (if there's one available like a fenced back yard). Record and play back the door bell over and over while pup is eating. Teach them to reach for their collar instead of shy away. Actually pair praise to feeding so they know what it means.

I do a lot of what people here would call BS stuff because I'm counting on the dog's obedience being good but not great! The average person I'm teaching doesn't see their dog as a hobby like we all do here. They don't put in the time and I accepted a while back that I can't make them do it, so, it's a game of influence the things you can control and forget the ones you can't. People will do simple, easy stuff that doesn't require a ton of time but convincing them to spend 10 minutes 2 or 3 times a day with a dog in specific training isn't so easy.

Sorry about the attention getting writing style. It's not meant to be an attack on anyone. It's just how I write.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I keep telling you guys that you will never get the last word (or 500-600 words) with Darrin. Hahalol.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Using a heeling stick does not automatically mean 'beat the dog'.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I keep telling you guys that you will never get the last word (or 500-600 words) with Darrin. Hahalol.


Sorry if I think and type quickly enough to put out 600 words in 5 minutes Wayne LOL


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