# 2017 nrc



## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm surprised there hasn't been any comments or posts about this yet so I'll start a thread. 

102 starters
8 dropped after the first
41 handles in 1st series.

So far in the 2nd there's been 3 double handles and 2 pick ups, along with plenty of handles, about 1/3 of the way done with this series.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

It's 8 miles away and I haven't gotten over there yet.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Both series are VERY tight setup triples with 2 retired. Very easy to get into trouble


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> Both series are VERY tight setup triples with 2 retired. Very easy to get into trouble


Are you there?


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## 2good2Btru (Apr 18, 2017)

Very surprised that the reigning champ Windy City Mighty Mouse was dropped after only the first series.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Thomas D said:


> Are you there?


No, just looking at the pics of the setups from the blog.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

2good2Btru said:


> Very surprised that the reigning champ Windy City Mighty Mouse was dropped after only the first series.


Why are you surprised? If you don't do the work you are dropped.


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## 2good2Btru (Apr 18, 2017)

Just figured he would go further than the first series. If he didn't do the work, then that's that


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## Gawthorpe (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes some very good dogs have been dropped or picked up so far. When you are trying to find the best dog in the nation, you have to drop the other 99.


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

First 2 tests will bring back memories of tight indented triples.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Personally, I am not in favor of marks this tight. Nor, do I believe that a National should become an elimination contest.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

I am with you Ted. Especially with the property they are on, lots of places to place a good bird.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

rboudet said:


> I am with you Ted. Especially with the property they are on, lots of places to place a good bird.


Landowner, Judy R. is no doubt wondering why she developed 500 gorgeous acres when 5 might have done! Success today much higher, once again showing how the rotation can be key at Nationals.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

71 back to the third! 

As Dennis eluded to it appears today's participants had a much higher rate of success, maybe it was conditions. 

I loved the video of Lardy and Farmer with Burns, fun to watch.


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Peter Balzer said:


> 71 back to the third!
> 
> As Dennis eluded to it appears today's participants had a much higher rate of success, maybe it was conditions.
> 
> I loved the video of Lardy and Farmer with Burns, fun to watch.


Are the callbacks wrong?


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Daren Galloway said:


> Are the callbacks wrong?


In what regard? I counted 21 dropped? Are you asking about a specific dog?


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

Peter Balzer said:


> In what regard? I counted 21 dropped? Are you asking about a specific dog?


I thought you meant Dog 71, was back. Wasn't sure if you were there and something was amiss. Sorry for the confusion


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Daren Galloway said:


> I thought you meant Dog 71, was back. Wasn't sure if you were there and something was amiss. Sorry for the confusion


No worries, 71 total dogs called back to the 3rd. Dog 71 was dropped.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Personally, I am not in favor of marks this tight. Nor, do I believe that a National should become an elimination contest.


All of this is inevitable with 100+ dog entries and short daylight hours.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

EdA #19 X 2 !


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

EdA #19 X 2 !


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Success today much higher, once again showing how the rotation can be key at Nationals.


How very true and usually exacerbated with split tests. Add to that when in the trial a dog makes a mistake, if it happens in a series when the judges want to make a drop it can be your only mistake.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Would have liked to see first 2 series in person, seemed to be a bit much. 
In 3rd series wonder if being on line left of bail is going to matter.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> All of this is inevitable with 100+ dog entries and short daylight hours.



I disagree


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Breck said:


> Would have liked to see first 2 series in person, seemed to be a bit much.
> In 3rd series wonder if being on line left of bail is going to matter.


Bullet's owner and Alan Pleasant hope not. Pretty sure he went right.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> I disagree


You must first assume the urgency to finish the 1st or 1st and 2nd combined in one day which I consider extremely important to the mechanics of the remainder of the trial. The judges chose to do a triple which had to be 6 minutes or less, not enough time for hunting so a make or break short mark was essential. I suspect that they got many more handles than they anticipated but much better too many than too few. I suspect most competitors prefer difficult to too easy, I certainly do. If I were to take issue it would be that the 2nd series was a repeat of the first with a little water on one bird and the short middle bird thrown toward the flier rather than away from it. Hopefully the dogs will hold up so the remainder of the trial will at least as difficult and that two handles do not become acceptable since many have already been dropped for two handles.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> You must first assume the urgency to finish the 1st or 1st and 2nd combined in one day which I consider extremely important to the mechanics of the remainder of the trial. The judges chose to do a triple which had to be 6 minutes or less, not enough time for hunting so a make or break short mark was essential. I suspect that they got many more handles than they anticipated but much better too many than too few. I suspect most competitors prefer difficult to too easy, I certainly do. If I were to take issue it would be that the 2nd series was a repeat of the first with a little water on one bird and the short middle bird thrown toward the flier rather than away from it. Hopefully the dogs will hold up so the remainder of the trial will at least as difficult and that two handles do not become acceptable since many have already been dropped for two handles.



Ed 

1. As you know, I share your concerns about time management.
2. I think that there is a reason that a double/blind has been the benchmark for so many years.
3. The birds in the 1st/2nd were very tight. It is hard to imagine that those involved did not foresee a good percentage of handling in both 1/2
4. When you come out of the box with such a high attrition rate, three possibilities predominate

a) You keep your foot on the gas in which case, how many dogs make it to the 10th - 5?
b) You change your standards for failure
c) You ease up on the gas

I am not sure I care for any of the above

I think that there has been a shift in philosophy concerning what a National is/should be. If this is a consequence of trial size, do we agree that elimination early is necessary? Or do we say, we need to take the pressure off the judges, make the trial more manageable - less dogs/higher qualification standards, add time to the trial, etc. 

I think the community should discuss where things are headed and if the direction is desirable

Ted


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## joeyrhoades (Feb 23, 2015)

in other news, they ran the test dogs for series 4 and then scrapped the test for the day.

I guess it was not up to the difficult standard they set.

new site tomorrow for the 4th series.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Or do we say, we need to take the pressure off the judges, make the trial more manageable - less dogs/higher qualification standards, add time to the trial, etc.
> 
> I think the community should discuss where things are headed and if the direction is desirable
> 
> Ted


As an officer of the NRC from 1992-2000 I proposed making qualification more difficult on several occasions but there was no consensus to change so the alternative was to add days. We are now up to 8 from 5, how many more until workers, dogs, and contestants are exhausted? Unless changes are made I think both Nationals will eventually collapse under their own weight. The first thing that will happen and that has already started is how Nationals are judged compared to weekend field trials. For the same infraction you are much more likely to be dropped early in the trial than late in the trial. One of the most difficult things to accomplish when judging a National is applying the same penalty for the same infractions whether those infractions are early or late. I have great respect for all three judges and hope this proves to be a terrific NRC. I further hope the guys next year can be even better.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

joeyrhoades said:


> in other news, they ran the test dogs for series 4 and then scrapped the test for the day.
> 
> I guess it was not up to the difficult standard they set.
> 
> new site tomorrow for the 4th series.


Probably a combination of not difficult enough and they weren't going to finish it today which would necessitate a move tomorrow which is extremely time consuming, better to move over night, they can do a land blind anywhere or perhaps a double land blind in the future.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm co-chairing the bird throwers committee and have been present during a few days of set-up and the first two days of the trial. (I had to work today, but most of it was going to be blinds). 

First off I would like to say WOW at Judy's grounds and her generosity. Paramore Fish grounds has hosted the first three series, and WOW is an understatement. Tomorrow should be a White's.

I've met some of the coolest people from outside our circuit this week. Didn't know people from California even existed except for election night. I also think Danny Farmer could become a comedian when he stops training dogs.

The amount of work from tons and tons of people that goes into this week is unbelievable. This goes on for two solid weeks. The set-up week is a blast. Our committee and the gunners have been relentless giving each other grief over the past weeks. They have all been good guys to work with. The marshal's committee probably has the most stress of anyone in the trial, but everyone bust their rear ends. Many thanks to them. People also don't realize the efforts of the local folks in helping the pre-National training groups. A lot of birds being thrown and a lot of land being offered up.

At the National meeting, they did mention the trial would start up on Saturday to give them an extra day to work with. I never realized how much time management goes into running this event, especially in the test set-up. Hopefully the workers stick with it, but I think it will help with the limitations on the tests in the future. Sun this time of year is our best friend and worst enemy. With a Northeast wind, afternoon sun is in your eyes. I would imagine they scrapped the 4th due to time and not wanting to split the test.

Finally, people don't realize how much the sponsor's help this event. Without them, the event could not have occurred. Some people may say "whatever", but this is not a money making event. Purina, Avery Sporting Dog, Dogtra, TriTronics, Kent, AgPro (donated the use of UTV's) and several others I can't remember. Jeff Talley and his crew has done an outstanding job getting National and local sponsors to help.

With all that said, it is a blast to step in and help. Hopefully one day soon I will be a participant.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

bjoiner said:


> I'm co-chairing the bird throwers committee and have been present during a few days of set-up and the first two days of the trial. (I had to work today, but most of it was going to be blinds).
> 
> First off I would like to say WOW at Judy's grounds and her generosity. Paramore Fish grounds has hosted the first three series, and WOW is an understatement. Tomorrow should be a White's.
> 
> ...


An accurate assessment except for this "The marshal's committee probably has the most stress of anyone in the trial,". They are second, the judges win the most stress award hands down. After 6 months and into the future no one will remember who the marshals are but they will remember who the judges are forever.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

EdA said:


> An accurate assessment except for this "The marshal's committee probably has the most stress of anyone in the trial,". They are second, the judges win the most stress award hands down. After 6 months and into the future no one will remember who the marshals are but they will remember who the judges are forever.


I stand corrected. One day I would like to try it. Right now I will stick to The weekend trials. 

One thing I did learn is the only people under tougher judgement than the handlers are the judges.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

EdA said:


> As an officer of the NRC from 1992-2000 I proposed making qualification more difficult on several occasions but there was no consensus to change so the alternative was to add days. We are now up to 8 from 5, how many more until workers, dogs, and contestants are exhausted? Unless changes are made I think both Nationals will eventually collapse under their own weight. The first thing that will happen and that has already started is how Nationals are judged compared to weekend field trials. For the same infraction you are much more likely to be dropped early in the trial than late in the trial. One of the most difficult things to accomplish when judging a National is applying the same penalty for the same infractions whether those infractions ar*e early or late. I have great respect for all three judges and hope this proves to be a terrific NRC. I further hope the guys next year can be even better*.


I couldn't find the minutes of the RAC...who are the Judges for next year and the location of the event?


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## birdhunter61 (Aug 8, 2004)

BonMallari said:


> I couldn't find the minutes of the RAC...who are the Judges for next year and the location of the event?


Dave Ospeth, Charles Tyson, Ed Aycock- Paducha Ky


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Nov 10-18 start on sat. Look forward to it being here in Paducah, Ky. Seeing as how I'm local, probably going to be at least 2 weeks of hard work. I'm looking forward to it and hope everyone has a good time.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

I do want to state that an above post I made read entirely wrong when I went back and read it. I by no means meant to criticize anything or anyone. I was trying to make a joke about everyone's opinion and when I reread it, it read like I was criticizing the judges. I apologize for the way it read and have modified it. I was trying to make a joke about everyone having different opinions, and it did not read the way I intended. As I stated in my first post, I have experienced nothing but good times and good people at this National. 

Nobody pointed this this out to me, so hopefully nobody took it the wrong way. If they did, I sincerely apologize.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

First test dog one whistled the fourth series land blind. I think I read the second test two whistled it. I figured that's why they scrapped it. 

Pulling for Maestro who was called back to fourth.

Sure wish they live streamed this like they do the SRS.


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## 2good2Btru (Apr 18, 2017)

Pulling for Maestro and Tubb


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

AMEN, Ed!! (Post #30)

And, Ed - well said in Post # 29!

I would like to be the FIRST on RTF to Congratulate for being selected next year (2018) as one of the National
Judges. I will do everything I can to offer thoughts.

Bill Connor


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

bjoiner said:


> I do want to state that an above post I made read entirely wrong when I went back and read it. I by no means meant to criticize anything or anyone. I was trying to make a joke about everyone's opinion and when I reread it, it read like I was criticizing the judges. I apologize for the way it read and have modified it. I was trying to make a joke about everyone having different opinions, and it did not read the way I intended. As I stated in my first post, I have experienced nothing but good times and good people at this National.
> 
> Nobody pointed this this out to me, so hopefully nobody took it the wrong way. If they did, I sincerely apologize.


I don't think your post was taken as a criticism at all. When I read it , I took it as a reasonable observation of the event. One perspective that you and I have on the NRC that some other replies here, is that you and I were actually there and saw the set ups and the action live and in person. Any one who has actually participated in a Trial or Derby or Q, knows that only 1 person leaves happy. That may well be the case on Saturday when this event concludes.
Good to see you again.
MP


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Seems like they intended to keep the foot on the gas with a tight over/under but dogs seem to be doing it. Wouldn't want to be carrying more than one big hunt over the past 9 marks.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

the second set of land marks is usually a quad


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Looks like several dogs are having big hunts and/or handling. Definitely not letting up.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> the second set of land marks is usually a quad


This is essentially the 3rd set of land marks. One mark of a triple with a short swim in 2nd doesn't really qualify as a set of "water marks". The 3rd series "water blind" even had less of a swim.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Am I the only one that is concerned/disappointed/surprised at the high amount of handles...Yes I realize its a National, and Yes I understand the old adage that a quick handle is desirable over an elongated hunt...Is this the year we see a dog with 2 handles as a Finalist...and its only the 4th Series...


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> This is essentially the 3rd set of land marks. One mark of a triple with a short swim in 2nd doesn't really qualify as a set of "water marks". The 3rd series "water blind" even had less of a swim.


Per National standards the second series qualifies as the first set of water marks which never has much water in it.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

EdA said:


> the second set of land marks is usually a quad


Tony D likes to throw quads, also


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Unfortunate for Justin Aimone and Jesse Jane which just received their 3rd no bird on this series. They'll run last. Hope it doesn't negatively affect the performance on this series.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> ...Is this the year we see a dog with 2 handles as a Finalist...and its only the 4th Series...


If the second handle is in the first 9 seres no, if the second or third handle is in the 10th yes, but that happens all of the time.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> Am I the only one that is concerned/disappointed/surprised at the high amount of handles......


You are probably not the only non-competitor (concerned?), but I am guessing the contestants, 35 of whom have not handled, are not concerned at all.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Well callback I'm sure will be posted shortly. . . What's everyone's guess on how many will get called back?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Well callback I'm sure will be posted shortly. . . What's everyone's guess on how many will get called back?


60................


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Peter Balzer said:


> Well callback I'm sure will be posted shortly. . . What's everyone's guess on how many will get called back?


53.............


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> 53.............


That would be a big drop based on the work, expect a big drop after the quad tomorrow


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

EdA said:


> That would be a big drop based on the work, expect a big drop after the quad tomorrow


I'm sure you're probably right. I did read where quite a few dogs had pretty significant hunts. Probably give most the benefit of the doubt and let the quad give them answers.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

EdA said:


> That would be a big drop based on the work, expect a big drop after the quad tomorrow


Some of the later hunts today were HUGE. Early dogs definitely had the advantage today. I would think mid 50's.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Bamajeff, I'll be down there all day Friday and Saturday working as a Garmin rep. If you're still there, look me up. We are both from Alabama and I don't think we have met.
Mp


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Mike Perry said:


> Bamajeff, I'll be down there all day Friday and Saturday working as a Garmin rep. If you're still there, look me up. We are both from Alabama and I don't think we have met.
> Mp


I'm not there, just following through the blog. Yes, we've met. I've seen you at most of the North AL hunt tests. You may not remember me though. I just got into hunt tests a couple years ago.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Peter Balzer said:


> Well callback I'm sure will be posted shortly. . .


Any idea why the callbacks are delayed?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> Any idea why the callbacks are delayed?


They are probably scrutinizing them, there will Be groups of dogs whose work is so similar that they would either drop them all or call them all back. The fact that they are discussing this long does not bode well for dogs on the bubble.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Worker's party tonight and RTFN has had a very busy day I'm sure. They will get the info out, but RFTN bloggers need time to clean up and do necessary stuff just like all of us.


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## Chipper31 (Mar 8, 2009)

Hey Mike Perry, can you PM please?


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## 2good2Btru (Apr 18, 2017)

Guess they will post up the callbacks tomorrow morning?????


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## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

Brooks, I'm SO excited that Paducah is the venue. I have nothing but admiration for the grounds and the local clubs, I have enjoyed judging there. The pros and club members that know the ropes are always as welcoming as can be. And from a competitor "creature-comfort" standpoint, Paducah is a wonderful location: about 20 minutes from the grounds, lots of hotels restaurants and about every other kind of retailer you might need during the week - very traveler friendly. I just hope I'm lucky enough to get there. And if Jeff and I do, we'll be delighted and will help however we can....


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## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

I think they will post the callbacks when they get the callbacks.... but I think the Retriever News folks understand how critical this information is, so it will get out as soon as available.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

7:00/1900 Colorado time. Excessive delay. Looks like serious disagreement.
If so, certainly not good for the handlers/dogs in the mix.

Let's see what develops & breaking scuttlebutt. 

WD


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Lydia, I look forward to seeing you and Jeff at Paducah next year, you also Ed. It will be a lot of hard work, but we have good infrastructure here, good grounds and hard working group of people. I'm sure everyone will have a great time.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Callback posted. Looks like 56 are called back


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## 2good2Btru (Apr 18, 2017)

Didn't think Maestro's summary was to bad compared to others but I'm not there and definitely inexperienced in this. Oh well. Still rooting for Tubb


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

2good2Btru said:


> Didn't think Maestro's summary was to bad compared to others but I'm not there and definitely inexperienced in this. Oh well. Still rooting for Tubb


Yeah, hard to tell for sure from just reading the blog. I'm pulling for Hex. Not likely as young as he is, but hope he makes it to the later series anyway.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

bamajeff said:


> 2good2Btru said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't think Maestro's summary was to bad compared to others but I'm not there and definitely inexperienced in this. Oh well. Still rooting for Tubb
> ...


I was very surprised. Just reading the blog it sounded like he just had a small/medium hunt on the long retired.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Bryan Parks said:


> I was very surprised. Just reading the blog it sounded like he just had a small/medium hunt on the long retired.


I think it was a big hunt probably(especially seeing he was dropped). Just reading the descriptions, it sounds like he setup 2 hunts outside AOF and finally worked back to the area.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> I was very surprised. Just reading the blog it sounded like he just had a small/medium hunt on the long retired.


The blog is generally sanitized and not very accurate and he had a handle in the 2nd series.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Are you kidding me...they are moving the trial ONE HOUR away to Ms Metcalf's property in Florida..thats ridiculous...youre telling me that you couldn't find another test to do on the Rasmussen's 500 acres...SMH

the following was posted on the blog at 4:36 am

*
Today we are traveling to Florida to the Metcalf Farm. We have been told that we may have a problem with connectivity. This location is just under an hour from Thomasville, GA. We will be traveling there this morning to ascertain the situation and will let you know as we put a test post up from our tent this morning.*


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

BonMallari said:


> Are you kidding me...they are moving the trial ONE HOUR away to Ms Metcalf's property in Florida..thats ridiculous...youre telling me that you couldn't find another test to do on the Rasmussen's 500 acres...SMH
> 
> the following was posted on the blog at 4:36 am
> 
> ...


It's about 30 minutes from Boston to Metcalf.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

To put blog descriptions in perspective go back to day 1 and read 3 test dogs work. Then watch drone video of 3rd dog. Try to match work in video with any of the words.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Isn't it actually Madison FL?


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## Pipe Creek Retrievers (Sep 28, 2013)

EdA said:


> The blog is generally sanitized and not very accurate and he had a handle in the 2nd series.


I agree 100% Ed. I have followed the blog as many have for years, and have many times seen the blog read, Smacked it, Nice line straight to the mark, and then see after callbacks, that dog they described was dropped. 

So therefore I very rarely read the actual blog. I watch the callbacks and watch videos posted.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

56 dogs, 1800 yard test, 1000 football fields to go.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

All in the eyes of the judges.There are three. We are just bystanders. Get a grip.


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## Chipper31 (Mar 8, 2009)

Did anyone hear why Ford (#29) scratched?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Chipper31 said:


> Did anyone hear why Ford (#29) scratched?


Limping/lameness concerns.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

2 long retired first brings switch to mind. Closeness of falls may confuse or make dogs nervous as to exactly where they are going or have been.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

This is a blood bath this morning. Lots of handles, poor handles, pick ups on some very experienced dogs with very experienced handlers.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Well EdA be prepared next year to see similar comments when you judge?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

swliszka said:


> Well EdA be prepared next year to see similar comments when you judge?


Having thick skin is a requirement and comments from the peanut gallery are easy to ignore. Until you have walked in the judges shoes or followed closely in their footsteps (as I have on four occasions) you cannot imagine the pressure of overseeing the marquee event of the retriever world.


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## Old School Labs (May 17, 2006)

EdA said:


> Having thick skin is a requirement and comments from the peanut gallery are easy to ignore. Until you have walked in the judges shoes or followed closely in their footsteps (as I have on four occasions) you cannot imagine the pressure of overseeing the marquee event of the retriever world.


Ed I know you will do just fine, be nice to the other judges.  I will be there gunning if my baby does not run the NDC.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Looks as though the work has improved, the conditions update indicated a pick-up in wind, and of course sun is fully up maybe changing the view the dogs have. 

Still some big hunts going on, and some dogs doing really good work.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Peter Balzer said:


> Looks as though the work has improved, the conditions update indicated a pick-up in wind, and of course sun is fully up maybe changing the view the dogs have.
> 
> Still some big hunts going on, and some dogs doing really good work.


Per Pat Burns fatigue is likely to become a factor as the temperature rises into the 70s


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## wayne anderson (Oct 16, 2007)

Was there all day announcing, and most dogs panting pretty well. Play pool with ice/water available, and Dr. Jeff Schuett was standing by to help cool dogs down. Temps high 60s-low 70s, humidity not excessive. Sandy soil/thick cover? Dr. Schuett thinks this may have part of the problem.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Thanks Wayne. Some pretty big tongues in blog pics. Maybe close to ground was more steamy?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Any guesses on # of callbacks to the 6th? I'll guess 38


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I threw right retired (275 yards) this morning. Could hear some dogs panting, thought they were near bird, then handler would send. 

Right bird was down wind and it was a crisp morning so sound carrying well.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

captainjack said:


> I threw right retired (275 yards) this morning. Could hear some dogs panting, thought they were near bird, then handler would send.


Wow. That's crazy. Hope all dogs stay safe


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

bamajeff said:


> Wow. That's crazy. Hope all dogs stay safe


Other dogs picked up my bird and I never heard them. Was cool early on so I have no insight into how heat affected dogs. Just thought it interesting what I could hear at 275.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Wow, midnight.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> Wow, midnight.


Must be some serious disagreements, everyone needs sleep, the early dogs tomorrow don’t know the starting number.


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

Again like Post #67. Over eight (8) hours since series #5 ended. Now 2:04 Colorado Springs, 11/17/2017 Friday A.M. No callbacks.
RFTN or more serious disagreements?
NOT A GOOD INDICATOR AND AWFUL FOR HANDLERS/DOGS IN THE MIX FOR SERIES SIX (6).

WD


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## Andy Brittingham (Mar 3, 2013)

Wow, finally posted about 5am, and half the remaining field was dropped. 28 dogs left.


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## TonyRodgz (Feb 8, 2010)

Callbacks Going Into The Sixth

The 28 dogs called back to the Sixth Series are 1, 5, 6, 8, 12, 22, 34, 38, 39,* 42, 47, 48, 49, 50, 55, 56, 60, 62, 63, 64, 66, 74, 75, 77, 80, 81, 102 and 103.

21 are clean and 7 with a handle. 

The 28 dogs dropped are 2, 3, 11, 16, 18, 19, 26, 27, 28, 29, 31, 37, 40, 53, 57, 59, 67, 69, 70, 72, 79, 83, 86, 90, 92, 93, 95 and 101.

6 were clean, 5 PU ( 1 double handled but was clean, 1 handle and at a previous series, 3 had a previous handle) 1 Scratch, 1 broke, 2 handle in the 5th, 6 had a previous handle and again on the 5th and 7 had just a handle on a previous series.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Double blind this morning. Both are very short. The land blind is under 100 yds. Presumably, the judges aren't going to be looking to drop many if any. The 8th series in Mondovi this year saw all of the dogs called back after a very short water blind. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but from the gallery, it didn't look like the judges even had their books open for that test. Wondering if we will see something similar here.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Any idea why Bullet ran out of order?


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

With 28 dogs left, 4 of them have already won a national. At least 3 others have previously finished at least one.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

There are two days to complete 5 series - 3 blinds and 2 sets of water marks. A deep cut was inevitable at the end of the 5th series. I doubt the judges want to carry 28 dogs to the 10th series. And I doubt that they want to make big cuts based on blinds. So, my guess is double blind, water marks today. Followed by water blind, water marks tomorrow.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Twin Willows Labs said:


> Any idea why Bullet ran out of order?


Well, Pleasant has multiple dogs, possibly they needed more time in between for him to get back and forth.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

HH & PU's aside, it appears comparing good handles to bad hunts must have been debated. Plus a look back at handles. 
Think at weekend trials a bad hunt doesn't always end up on paper but a good handle always does.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Rainmaker said:


> Well, Pleasant has multiple dogs, possibly they needed more time in between for him to get back and forth.


Realized that as soon as I went back to the blog and checked the running order after the post.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> There are two days to complete 5 series - 3 blinds and 2 sets of water marks. A deep cut was inevitable at the end of the 5th series. I doubt the judges want to carry 28 dogs to the 10th series. And I doubt that they want to make big cuts based on blinds. So, my guess is double blind, water marks today. Followed by water blind, water marks tomorrow.


i will be very surprised if they do only one set of water marks, not enough time for 2. Expect land marks in the tenth.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Is the rotation known for all series from the beginning? HPW


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

HarryWilliams said:


> Is the rotation known for all series from the beginning? HPW


Rotation after the 4th is based on running dogs, eg at 5th go back to who started the first and it is the sixth running dog


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> i will be very surprised if they do only one set of water marks, not enough time for 2. Expect land marks in the tenth.



If true, that would give them 4 sets of land marks and 2 sets of water marks.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> If true, that would give them 4 sets of land marks and 2 sets of water marks.


and not a single meaningful blind, basically a 6 series National.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

EdA said:


> and not a single meaningful blind, basically a 6 series National.


If they are going to run 'meaningless' blinds(and I agree with most of this year's being meaningless...esp last 2). Why even run them? The last 2 blinds were something you'd expect to see at a weekend master test.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

*


EdA said:



and not a single meaningful blind,

Click to expand...

*


EdA said:


> basically a 6 series National.


Thank you for bringing that up.....

Yes and someone will bring up "....marking is of utmost importance.."

IMO a blind is the test of who really has control of their dog..its also the most subjective test ..dont want to see a test/trial become a whistle counting contest, dont want to see a swimming test...guess I just want to see a balanced trial


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> If they are going to run 'meaningless' blinds(and I agree with most of this year's being meaningless...esp last 2). Why even run them? The last 2 blinds were something you'd expect to see at a weekend master test.



I think that the National Guidelines call for 10 series, evenly divided between land and water. Traditionally, this has meant three series of land marks, three series of water marks, 2 land blinds, 2 water blinds. 

In a National, time is always an issue.

I imagine the judges are feeling pressed for time. 28 dogs to run through five series in two days. One place to save time is on blinds. So you have two short, quick blinds in the morning and get series 6/7 in the books. Come back with water marks for 8. Maybe a real water blind for 9 in the morning. Then finish with water marks for 10. 

Time is always an issue. I would expect cuts to be deep after 8, so that you are not taking too many dogs to 9/10 tomorrow.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> Plenty of time to lay down a killer water blind in that big ass pond (2 hrs tonight 10 dogs then split with tomorrow) and finish with a half land half water mixed bag quad.


There is no such thing at this stage of a National as plenty of time. What if something goes awry and they have to scrap a test? Moving at this stage is out of the question. There is not really a big time killer blind on that pond, if they start one and don’t complete it that necessitates a move tomorrow which takes about two hours.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

EdA said:


> There is no such thing at this stage of a National as plenty of time. What if something goes awry and they have to scrap a test? Moving at this stage is out of the question. There is not really a big time killer blind on that pond, if they start one and don’t complete it that necessitates a move tomorrow which takes about two hours.


Ok thanks for the insight Ed


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> Ok thanks for the insight Ed


These things are learned from National Retriever Championships 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996, and 2000 where I served in various positions from Committee Chairman to Chief Marshall to Chairman to President. Also add co Chief Marshall 1991 National Amateur Retriever Championship. Lots of sleepless nights along the way, you would think I would have learned better......????


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> There is no such thing at this stage of a National as plenty of time. What if something goes awry and they have to scrap a test? Moving at this stage is out of the question. There is not really a big time killer blind on that pond, if they start one and don’t complete it that necessitates a move tomorrow which takes about two hours.



Or fog delays the morning start. 
Or a storm rolls in and the test is postponed for 2-3 hours.
Or ...

I agree with Ed. A physical move would be tricky ... too much time consumed.

In a National, time is always an issue.

Ted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

EdA said:


> These things are learned from National Retriever Championships 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996, and 2000 where I served in various positions from Committee Chairman to Chief Marshall to Chairman to President. Also add co Chief Marshall 1991 National Amateur Retriever Championship. Lots of sleepless nights along the, you would think I would have learned better......????



It's alot of work ... but, also alot of fun. And you get to watch some really good dogs and handlers up close and personal. 

You'll have a good time.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Or fog delays the morning start.
> Or a storm rolls in and the test is postponed for 2-3 hours.
> Or ...
> 
> ...


They must start tomorrow on the property they plan to finish on and have they not done 2 water blinds and only one land blind?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

bet they wish they had the time they used to move the trial to the property in Florida back again...


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## TonyRodgz (Feb 8, 2010)

EdA said:


> They must start tomorrow on the property they plan to finish on and have they not done 2 water blinds and only one land blind?


They haven't done a poison bird. Don't know if it's a must but had seen it at other Nationals


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

Rooting for Abbey, Clooney, Augie, and Google. Reading over the posts is tough, but I'm hoping they make it to the end.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Big swims take time and make using one not practical most of the time. It's too bad there's not a big water bird to help decide who is the NFC. Harry


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

BonMallari said:


> bet they wish they had the time they used to move the trial to the property in Florida back again...


Where did the loose time moving the trial? As far as I can tell all of that was done in the dark.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

What's the big deal finishing Sunday?
16 dogs, 15min test, done @ noon. 
Leaves Saturday to do Anything with 25 dogs.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Breck said:


> What's the big deal finishing Sunday?
> 16 dogs, 15min test, done @ noon.
> Leaves Saturday to do Anything with 25 dogs.


Because a number of people (for example, the gunners) are not running dogs, took time off to volunteer at the National, and have already made travel arrangements. It's a big deal to them.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> What's the big deal finishing Sunday?
> 16 dogs, 15min test, done @ noon.
> Leaves Saturday to do Anything with 25 dogs.


Most have Sunday travel plans many by air, Sunday finish would be chaos, awards presentation and winner’s party are planned months in advance. Many would be unhappy with a Sunday finish and it would be a serious financial loss for the NRC.

Given the situation I would do a cold honor land blind catching a piece of water, the mark would be difficult and retired and it would influence the blind, then a big time land quad with 2 fliers and 3 retired.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

EdA #131 X 2, Nice.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Aware that trial must finish Saturday, was sort of joking but would like to see big tests to finish


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> Aware that trial must finish Saturday, was sort of joking but would like to see big tests to finish



Too bad, not enough hours of daylight for big test(s), only enough for one big test and with 2 series to go not enough time to swim 20 dogs.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Has a national ever been decided on less than 10 series due to running out of time or bad weather preventing finishing?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Breck said:


> Has a national ever been decided on less than 10 series due to running out of time or bad weather preventing finishing?


No, not allowed by the bylaws, it might be possible but no one would want to be involved. Running out of time after 8 days is not an acceptable reason, a catastrophic weather event would be an exception.


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## Andy Brittingham (Mar 3, 2013)

EdA said:


> Most have Sunday travel plans many by air, Sunday finish would be chaos, awards presentation and winner’s party are planned months in advance. Many would be unhappy with a Sunday finish and it would be a serious financial loss for the NRC.
> 
> Given the situation I would do a cold honor land blind catching a piece of water, the mark would be difficult and retired and it would influence the blind, then a big time land quad with 2 fliers and 3 retired.


What is a cold honor land blind, with a difficult retired mark?
I think I understand the pieces, but how do they play out?


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## TonyRodgz (Feb 8, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> Well, Pleasant has multiple dogs, possibly they needed more time in between for him to get back and forth.


Yes, it happened to Farmer. 22 ran out of order on the 8th


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Ed, you've opened up a new can of worms. Now you have to explain how a cold honor works&#55357;&#56846;!!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Don't know protocol or requirements. They've honored twice to this point.

Also not sure exactly how Ed was thinking, but we ran a cold honor, single and blind a couple weeks ago in Jacksonville. 

1st dog cold honored while a by-dog was sent on a single. 
Honor dog was released to return to holding blind as by-dog retrieved mark. 
Honor dog was called to line and ran a blind (our blind was outside and deep of fall area of the single).
Handler received dog on a separate mat prepared to run the single. 
Next dog called to line for cold honor while previous dog sent for single. 

I've done this one other time in a Qualifying stake. 

Harder to describe than to do and a great way to get your honor done in a weekend trial.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Be interesting to see how tomorrow goes. For 8th it took an hour shy of full day to run 28 dogs on 10min water triple.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> Be interesting to see how tomorrow goes. For 8th it took an hour shy of full day to run 28 dogs on 10min water triple.


Short delay before starting due to fog. Then ran 28 on a double blind (went quickly), then 28 on the triple. Test dog started triple at 10:00 where we've been starting TD at 7:00. 

No idea what the plan is for tomorrow. Hope for a clear start to the day.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

So they have to finish up 9 and 10 tomorrow and is there a finals or is that it?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Bryan Parks said:


> So they have to finish up 9 and 10 tomorrow and is there a finals or is that it?


That's it.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

captainjack said:


> Short delay before starting due to fog. Then ran 28 on a double blind (went quickly), then 28 on the triple. Test dog started triple at 10:00 where we've been starting TD at 7:00.
> 
> No idea what the plan is for tomorrow. Hope for a clear start to the day.


Oh right forgot the quick blinds. Had a few........


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

captain2560 said:


> Ed, you've opened up a new can of worms. Now you have to explain how a cold honor works😎!!


OK BrooksI will try....
The honor dog comes to line to honor a single thrown for the dog who just ran the blind, honoring dog can be released from honor anytime after the the working dog is sent for the mark. The honor dog is typically sent to a holding blind but could be required to honor the entire retrieve to it’s completion. After completion of the mark by the working dog the honor dog comes to line and runs the blind. After completing the blind the next honor dog comes to line to honor the working dog who now does the mark.

This provides 3 things, an honor, a blind with a poison bird type diversion, and another mark to judge. The last time I did this a couple of years ago we got more answers from the mark than from the blind which in that instance was a water blind.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

I did one a couple of weeks ago in Jacksonville. If the mark is difficult the dogs can hunt it, get nervous and end up going back to the blind, which requires a handle. If the mark is closer to line to blind, it puts the dog in hunt mode, which scenting an area does not seem to do as well. It gets the honor out of the way without shooting extra flyers for a bye dog for the sponsoring club.


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Looks like fog again on the blog. Time management could be put in a bind.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

captain2560 said:


> Looks like fog again on the blog. Time management could be put in a bind.


They are in a tight time box. Three series yesterday, only one dog dropped.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> They are in a tight time box. Three series yesterday, only one dog dropped.


Counting test dogs they have less than 15 minutes per dog. Someone is surly checking the availability of help Sunday.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

EdA said:


> Counting test dogs they have less than 15 minutes per dog. Someone is surly checking the availability of help Sunday.


I'm sure the judges realize that a poor result will haunt them longer than running the trial an extra day .


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

​It would appear that they intend to finish today.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Wow, deep cut from the 9th to the 10th. Hard to tell from the blog why some of the dogs were dropped. I know they were in a time crunch, so the pencil sharpener must have come out.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

IF they can get some birds in the air in the next hour, leaves them about 3 hours of daylight and about 12 minutes per dog with very little room for error


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Not over until the last bird and dog. Good luck to all.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

BonMallari said:


> IF they can get some birds in the air in the next hour, leaves them about 3 hours of daylight and about 12 minutes per dog with very little room for error


Sunset there is not until 5:40 ish and it's sunny. If they get started soon they should be in good shape.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

If a dog is picked up in the 10th Series , are they still considered a Finalist?


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

No, I don't believe a dog is a finalist until they complete all retrieves.

Tom


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

BonMallari said:


> If a dog is picked up in the 10th Series , are they still considered a Finalist?


I always understood it to be you had to pick up all the birds in The tenth to be a finalist.

In Canada you are a finalist if you make it to The tenth.

Randy

Edit: I was still typing when Tom posted


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Rnd said:


> I always understood it to be you had to pick up all the birds in The tenth to be a finalist.
> 
> In Canada you are a finalist if you make it to The tenth.
> 
> ...


​You are not a finalist until they tell you so.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Always hard to tell for sure, but I'm picking Mully based on the blog. If he does win, will he be first ever to win NRC and NARC in same year?


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

My pick is Tippy and Danny Farmer.


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> ​You are not a finalist until they tell you so.


Just asking: Has anybody ever picked up all the birds and not,, been a finalist?

Randy


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

pulling for Hudson, he's run 30 series of nationals without a handle.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

captain2560 said:


> pulling for Hudson, he's run 30 series of nationals without a handle.


That's very impressive.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

captain2560 said:


> pulling for Hudson, he's run 30 series of nationals without a handle.


I saw a lot of Hudson. Saw no faults. Hit the marks very hard. 

Juice did as well. Didn't see much of Mully or Tippy.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Rnd said:


> Just asking: Has anybody ever picked up all the birds and not,, been a finalist?
> 
> Randy


A number of years ago, champagne glasses (for finalists) were handed out to everyone who got a bird - before the judges announced who the finalists were. The judges were not happy, there were dogs that got the birds that they did not believe should be finalists. But, no one wanted to tell those folks that they were not finalists. However, no one wanted that to happen again.

So, at the 2016 Stowe NARC, it was announced that unless you were pronounced a finalist - you were not a finalist - even if you got all the birds.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Yea Juice, congratulations
God bless Tequila Sunrise
Wonder if Jim had an NFC kicker.


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## Jim Harvey (Feb 7, 2007)

YEA BRECK I DO,....  GOTTA CALL MARK ABOUT ! Not really,....


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## captain2560 (Jan 23, 2007)

Congrats to mark and juice, and all the other fine dogs that were finalists.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Jim Harvey said:


> YEA BRECK I DO,....  GOTTA CALL MARK ABOUT ! Not really,....


Congrats Jim really love that boy Juice.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Jim Harvey said:


> YEA BRECK I DO,....  GOTTA CALL MARK ABOUT ! Not really,....


Congratulations Jim I've always been a big fan of your dog, and Mark is continue to do wonderful job with him


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## Rnd (Jan 21, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> A number of years ago, champagne glasses (for finalists) were handed out to everyone who got a bird - before the judges announced who the finalists were. The judges were not happy, there were dogs that got the birds that they did not believe should be finalists. But, no one wanted to tell those folks that they were not finalists. However, no one wanted that to happen again.
> 
> So, at the 2016 Stowe NARC, it was announced that unless you were pronounced a finalist - you were not a finalist - even if you got all the birds.


Thank you,


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Congratulations to Juice and all of his people: Jim, Trish, Mark, Suzanne, Mike, Pat, Ray, Dave and let’s not forget Marilyn!

your friend, Chris.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Breck said:


> Congrats Jim really love that boy Juice.


Me too. Congratulations Mark too


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## Jim Harvey (Feb 7, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Congratulations to Juice and all of his people: Jim, Trish, Mark, Suzanne, Mike, Pat, Ray, Dave and let’s not forget Marilyn!
> 
> your friend, Chris.


Chris, without Marilyn Fender this never would of happened. I just got off the phone with her. Mike Lardy's and Lori Oliver (Juice's breeder) names should be added too.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Congrats to NFC Juice, and his team.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Jim Harvey said:


> Chris, without Marilyn Fender this never would of happened. I just got off the phone with her. Mike Lardy's and Lori Oliver (Juice's breeder) names should be added too.


Lori I missed. Mike I got! 

I knew Marilyn was a major factor. I had a front row seat for a bit of that and have enjoyed some of the friendships over the years that have resulted.

Thanks Juice!

Chris


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

bamajeff said:


> Always hard to tell for sure, but I'm picking Mully based on the blog. If he does win, will he be first ever to win NRC and NARC in same year?


Super Chief won the 67 NAFC and then the '68 NAFC and NFC

Wanapum Darts Dandy won the 75 NFC, the 76 NAFC and the 76 CNFC, and then won the 77 CNFC too


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> IF they can get some birds in the air in the next hour, leaves them about 3 hours of daylight and about 12 minutes per dog with very little room for error


Bon,

To follow-up. I couldn't find details online so I am having to go from memory which can be dangerous. In 1996 Rascal won. But, going into the tenth series he was not the favored winner. I think Straight was. Straight ended up handling, maybe even was picked up I can't remember. If you can find the list of finalists for 1996 and Straight, Ace's High Straight Flush (??), is not listed then he was picked up. Mike Lardy handled both dogs so you could him or Marilyn. I am sure they remember the details much better than I.

Tom


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

twall said:


> Bon,
> 
> To follow-up. I couldn't find details online so I am having to go from memory which can be dangerous. In 1996 Rascal won. But, going into the tenth series he was not the favored winner. I think Straight was. Straight ended up handling, maybe even was picked up I can't remember. If you can find the list of finalists for 1996 and Straight, Ace's High Straight Flush (??), is not listed then he was picked up. Mike Lardy handled both dogs so you could him or Marilyn. I am sure they remember the details much better than I.
> 
> Tom











Courtsey of https://retrieverresults.com/Milestone/Milestone?RT=FN


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## mjens (Aug 23, 2015)

Congratulations to all finalists! The Medford family and Juice... I'm sure are having a wonderful thanksgiving!!


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