# Sit means Sit - Or Does It?



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

You may think sit meas sit, but my guess is that it really doesn?t to your dog. 

I can discuss this subject because in many respects, I am an expert. By expert, I mean that my dogs are known offenders (one having broken in two different trials in the fourth series where we were on the leader board) and that I am, in no small measure, to blame.

First, some background. My dogs are professionally trained by Cherylon Loveland. She does not run trials, I do. In the off-season, I train every weekend. In season, I train Thursday, then jump in my dog truck.

Second, it doesn?t matter what you do, the dogs know a field trial (or hunt test). I don?t care what you do, you cannot replicate battle conditions, only approximate. At a FT, there is no collar. There are lots more people, dogs, and truck. The dogs sit around longer. There are more guns at the flyer station. They get a shot duck or pheasant - not a pigeon. So, if you have a high powered dog, he is going to be jacked up. That is a given.

Third, if you have a young, jacked up dog, your obedience problems can be exacerbated. One partial solution is to wear the dogs out. When my dogs were 3 and I was running in the AA stakes, I would run blinds in the morning before the set up dog ran, run blinds after the setup dog ran, run blinds after the marks, run blinds after the blinds, etc., etc. etc. I found that when I was able to do this (not always possible because of grounds near FT, running numbers, etc.) I found that I MIGHT have a chance of keeping the dogs RELATIVELY mellow. You may think I am exagerating. Let me assure you, I am not. 

When I ran the dogs' legs off on blinds, they would still race out after the birds, but be more considered about it. If I didn?t run the blinds, I was doomed. The dogs were just too pumped to be a FT. If they had to sit in the truck and wait, they would be running all over God?s country in the first series. Things got somewhat better last year at age 4, but they still needed the blinds to blow some of the steam out of them.

Last Spring, my two 4 year old littermates each had a win and each needed two points to qualify for the National. So, I pushed hard ... I ran too many trials in a row ... and got nothing. What?s worse, the dogs line manners got worse. One moral - be careful not to run too many trials in a row!

So, Cherylon and I dissected what was going wrong. There were some things that we could not address or did not want to address. Neither Cherylon nor I wanted to take the drive out of the dogs. It is too big a part of what we enjoy about the game. We thought (and this year may tell us so) that age would probably take care of some of the problem.

Then we started to work on me. And we discovered sit did not mean sit to the dogs when I was running them. They knew that the standard was different for me than for Cherylon.

Ok, so what do I mean when I say sit means sit.

It means in training (and of course at a FT) to the dog that:

You don?t get out of the dog box until I say so.
You don?t move after you get out of the dog box until I say so.
When I am walking to the holding blind (and I use a very short lead - a 6" climbing rope with no loop attached to a choke chain, which makes it easy for me to identify surging by the dog - and which can remain on the dog for land marks), you must sit when I stop.

It means that when I call for the birds, ANY movement calls for correction (either 6" lead or stick).

It means when you return with the bird, reposition, and sit, ANY movement without my direction calls for correction.

It means that after you gives me the bird, ANY movement without my direction calls for correction.

The standard is ANY (and I do mean ANY) movement.

When a handler can say that he or she truly honors that standard (in training - there are always some allowances that need to be made at a FT), then Sit means Sit.


My guess is that if you videotape yourself, you will find that sit really does not mean to the dog what you think it means.


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

*Sit means Sit*

Ted,
This is the standard Rex-Judy-Farmer approach to line manners. It is why out-of-state judges are amazed at how well behaved our dogs are online. In a typical 60-80 dog open, you MIGHT have to tell 3 handlers to reheel their dogs.

I am learning the hard way these lessons because Zipper was a laid back, steady eddie kinda dog. Wizard is not and you have to make him toe the line. If you watch yourself, the you don't have to watch the dog.


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## Pat F. (Jan 3, 2003)

Ted--thank you--I really appreciate this post and I'm sure others will too--EXCELLENT POST!!

I'm printing it out and going to go over it with my training group so that whoever is at the line behind me can watch/evaluate MYcorrections and timing, etc. There's certainly EVERY possiblity that I'm NOT making the dog sit....a TRUE sit......that I am allowing him to do some movement in training no matter how slight and that would most certainly carry over into trialing, especially with this type of dog. Soon as this snow melts some so we can get back out and into fulltime training mode I'm going to implement all of what you posted. As it stands now IF I can gain some ground with this regimen of training he may get to run in late summer, early fall. All I can do is try and he's just too nice a dog to quit on him.

Reo


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

I've had it both ways... the macho choco dawg was pretty chill and totally accepts that sit means sit. When the macho Crash dawg arrived at the airport at 8 weeks old and i stuck my had through the hole in the crate to pet him for the first time - he bit me and i bled right there on the airport counter... i knew i'd have to take a different approach with this dawg. Steadying started from day one. By 6 months i could walk out 50 yards, toss a mark, then walk back to the line to send him kicking up the dirt. Lee can speak to it better than i can now but he's still a firebreather and doesn't move an inch on the line. Or does he, Lee?

I think the gist of it is to evaluate what you got early on and deal with it then.

Shayne


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

WONDERFUL WONDERFUL POST TED!!! WOW....awesome....

I KNEW this stuff but it really sinks in for that habitual creeper I have (Bug) who has been known to leave the line on her own between multiple marks.....eesh

Shayne, I don't recognize the dog you are speaking about....Crash has a heeling stick with his name embroidered on it. He's much better than he was when I got him (damn dog acted like no one had ever put a lead on him) but we now see "eye to eye" most times. The wound on his nose (from pushing out of the dog trailer) is healing up nicely after having to slam it on his head 20 times in one training session. Pushy freaking Texan Dog......

Ted, I would like permission to reprint this in the Oregon Retriever Trial Club newsletter that I am typing out (will be out in the mail first week of March) and would be happy to send you a copy of the newsletter.

WRL


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

I forgot to give props to Ted... that is an awesome post.

Lee... all i can say is he was rock solid steady before peeing on Tricia's shoe. I never said he remained calm on exiting the kennel. He bit Mark Edwards one time when putting him back on the truck... i was certain the lesson he received that day would have stuck with him for awhile... guess not, although i never said he was smart. hehe

Shayne


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## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Ted 

I tend to believe that the disregard for the 'sit means sit' command is handler/trainer induced.

In our wonderful world of HT's and FT's, regardless of who's game we're playin', we as humans have a need to get there quickly. Though we go through the OB session of training we are constantly extending the dawg onward at an excellerated pace, either because of rule demands or our ego/dreams. Unfortunately along that road to success, _some things suffer_, OB may get a little less attention, while we're working on blinds, marks, TT, FF, CC and such, so we can compete. 
We buy high energy dawgs, then we attempt to get them higher through training scenarios that included live flyers, gunfire and the like. Our adrenaline flows, the dawgs sense it ,and things start to slide down hill in our quest. The athelete that we've trained our dawg to be takes over, and in the excitement of the moment, his adrealine flows also.

We push our dawgs hard to get into the competition of our egos, at an excellerated rate, that we forget ......BABY STEPS, Baby Steps, baby steps............... IMHODAO... if I may quote our friend Joe S.

Man........I love these dawgs and these games!!!

Polock......the only time the the world beats a path to your door is when you're in the bathroom

:drinking:


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

One thing that I think I need to reinforce - as Gman and Shayne both alluded to - your approach depends upon the dogs.

My two boyz needed lots of blinds and lots of obediance because they are as Steve Martin would say - "Wild and Crazy Guys."

At the same time when I was running the boyz, I had a 3 year old bitch, with whom I did not run blinds, and did not get on about obediance. She was lower maintenance and was better off left alone at the FT.

So decide what to do depending on your dog.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Excellent post Ted. I had 2 dogs that didn't budge on line. I was spoiled. Then I got 2 dogs that I thought were doing ok but they were lifting their butts and doing tiny little butt scoots. My trainer also noticed it and said don't let them get away with one little scoot. Well, at a trial, that little tiny scoot turns into a hop hop and they are 6 feet in front of you. We now practice even leaving the house to air. Sit means sit.


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## Gerard Rozas (Jan 7, 2003)

*Know your dog*

Exactly right Ted!

Zipper needed to be relaxed and feeling good, especially on watermarks to do well. Other dogs need to be tightened down for their "minds to be in gear". Got to know your dog and what is needed. Perfect example of it this weekend in the Am at Acadiana. Sunday morning, its raining, 50 degrees and the wind is blowing at 25-30 mph. Judges just lick their chops with condictions like that. The dogs have not had a collar on them since Thursday, many of them running Open and Am, so they have seen a few birds. Great waterblind with a re-entry required after a sizeable distance on land. I think only 2 dogs out of the first 15 picked up the duck! Sunday morning is a great time for a little OB with a collar on a dog that builds.

I have also found that as a dog advances in training and the setups get more difficult, there is a great tempation to COMPETE instead of train. Handlers get so involved in doing the tests that they forget about line manners, creeping, movement. Keep your standard.


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

A guy in my dog club said "a break starts with the first move."

Joe M.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Terrific point, Ted. 

Also a good point by Joe M.. I would go a step further and say that a break starts within the framework of the dog?s expectations. That?s why I?m such a fan of ?think drills?. Before reaching that point of maintenance, though, I also start with, and continue to promote, a solid sit standard as part of what any of my dogs come to expect from me.

As a former pro I also recognize how client?s dogs have different expectations of the standards supported by trainers, as compared to those they expect from their owners. In suggesting think drills, my standards are assumed because a solid tripod posture in a single piece of real estate is the only standard I accept. Measures beyond the norm (like think drills) have impact only if I keep that standard alive at all times.

As you pros know only too well, in spite of all the teaching and pleading you may do with your clients, they will do what they will do. Sometimes they listen, learn, and follow direction well. Sometimes they don?t.

Evan


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

Evan

What do you mean by "think drills?"

Also for anyone, as we try to adhere to the "sit means sit" level of obedience, other factors come into play. This example is easy to illustrate and is where my question arises from. I don?t know how many saw the ESPN retriever show a few weeks ago but it had a very difficult steady situation presented to the dogs and I looked at it and wondered what I would/should expect from my own dog in that situation. The marked retrieve was a double. There was a fairly technical bird (DFT) thrown on the right. Then right away a diversion bird was thrown right by the front of the handler and dog moving right to left about 15 yards in front of the handler. The reactions from the dogs were anything from a simple shift of the front feet to mark the fall to a controlled break stepping out of the box that was the test parameter.

In this example does "sit mean sit?" Is repositioning to mark the fall still sitting?

Being new to all this, I watched that part of the show with as much interest as the retrieves themselves.

Joe M.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Great question, Joe!  

First, the answer to your very good question would be "yes". Sit means sit. Even if you train your dog to move with you, he moves in response to a cue. That may only be your physical movement - right or left, or stepping up or back on him to communicate your desire for him to move. Many handlers do those things only intending to turn the dog's head to see marks in another direction. 

Even if the dog is trained to move, though, he should only pivot while remaining seated on the same spot next to the handler. I've done it both ways. I prefer to be able to move the dog in a tight pivot because of the separation that sometimes exists between marks.

"Think drills". The more I observed that style itself became an obstacle in a dog's performance, the more I would give that dog to think about. Very focused check-down drills, poison bird blinds (even for derby dogs), and even primary selection have been useful in helping the high drive types remain focused on their jobs without taking that wonderful style out of them. Reo also mentioned that she does cold honor blinds; a very simlilar regimen to poison bird blinds, and a wonderful discipline.

There are many other examples of think drills, but I'm sure you can see that the idea is to change the dog's expectations. Instead of always anticipating a one-two-three-GO cadence, you provide something more to think about, or to anticipate happening before they get to go.

Did I describe them well enough?

Evan


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Evan, if you are not careful you will start speaking with an Australian accent. I could not agree with you more. 

As you know I follow US training methods. But it gives me a headache day after day trying to marry up the major differences with what is required from my Australian dogs in competition. Downunder our dogs HAVE TO HAVE good line manners, otherwise, they have no chance of seeing the marks (they are from silent hidden bird launchers). 

What I saw, by observing the prenational training and the national itself was one trial. I cannot wait until I see a weekend FT and a hunt test during my next trip. 

But what I did see was wonderful to terrible line manners. During my observation of the prenational training I made notes beside every dog that I was blessed to video and see working. I wrote comments for example like happy tail, needed "use" of heeling stick between marks, great focus, great heeling to line, great memory. The blinds blew my mind with the control of course!!!!! It was interesting going through my notes after the completion of the Amateur national - the dogs percentage wise that had good line manners, were not just the finalists but the dogs that had lasted nearly until the end of the trial. 

By having visible gunners in the field surely that encourages bad line manners and head swinging. Or for that matter duck calls etc in hunt tests. 

I was told many times that line manners or for that matter delivery of birds is not really considered in competition, the dogs work in the field is. 
So that is the standard. Therefore the dogs are taught by THE RULES - ours and the judges. 

Also in Australia dogs do not see where the birds fall in our competitions. They see the bird in the skyline but that is all. I really enjoyed your comment about mixing up training/selection. Sorry to repeat this information but also in higher stakes the dogs will have to pick up the blind before getting the "skyline only sighted" marks in the same series (run).

Nothing turns me on more than a dog, obeying at the line to leave the marks and go for a blind, then picking up those marks like there were neon signs on them.


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

Evan

Yes, you explained it perfectly.




Evan said:


> First, the answer to your very good question would be "yes". Sit means sit. Even if you train your dog to move with you, he moves in response to a cue. That may only be your physical movement - right or left, or stepping up or back on him to communicate your desire for him to move. Many handlers do those things only intending to turn the dog's head to see marks in another direction.
> 
> Even if the dog is trained to move, though, he should only pivot while remaining seated on the same spot next to the handler. I've done it both ways. I prefer to be able to move the dog in a tight pivot because of the separation that sometimes exists between marks.


Essentially, taking initial alignment drills for heeling and handling and putting an additional component of responding to subtle handler movement only. Allowing pivot within that parameter only and holding to the strict standard. Sit still means sit.



Evan said:


> "Think drills". The more I observed that style itself became an obstacle in a dog's performance, the more I would give that dog to think about. Very focused check-down drills, poison bird blinds (even for derby dogs), and even primary selection have been useful in helping the high drive types remain focused on their jobs without taking that wonderful style out of them. Reo also mentioned that she does cold honor blinds; a very simlilar regimen to poison bird blinds, and a wonderful discipline.
> 
> There are many other examples of think drills, but I'm sure you can see that the idea is to change the dog's expectations. Instead of always anticipating a one-two-three-GO cadence, you provide something more to think about, or to anticipate happening before they get to go.




To make sure that I have it clear. An additional example of a "think drill" would be, much as primary selection, throw a mark, pause, turn and run a blind. Change the expectation.

Thank You

Joe M.



Ted

Excellent initial post and subject


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Joe

In many respects, "sit" is simply a synonym for "control." When you enforce sit, you are enforcing control.

Another means of enforcing control is to make sure not only that the dog does not move its feet without your permission, but also that the dog does not move its head without your permission.

For example, suppose you are running a triple. The first bird is thrown. Before it hits the ground, the dog swings its head. You could say "sit" and stick the dog. You could simply send the dog for the first bird (and correct if he does not run straight and true to the bird, then start the sequence over). You could wait until the dog's head returns to the first bird. You could do any of those things before calling for the second bird. Or you could simply call for the second bird. If you simply call for the second bird, you are teaching the dog that he can control the tempo of the birds. If you do one of the others, you are telling the dog that he needs to be more attentive to you and that he cannot swing off until you allow him to.

Ted


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## Blast (Jan 3, 2003)

Will ya'll "dummy" this up for me? I hear several references to the stick, but, unless I am wrong about some of you, all of you are collar folks. I assume during training all have a collar on, so why dont you nick instead of correct with the stick? 
And, if you dont mind, take this a step further with more "sit" infractions at the line. Do you just tap with the stick as a reminder, is it a whack on the first infraction, as it is a known command by this time in the scheme of things? It seems that with a collar it would be easier to "ramp up" the correction to "meet the crime" so to speak.
Also, I cannot agree more with Joe regarding that the break is a "process" and not an "event", by beginning at the first movement by the dog. With that in mind, every dog I have seen will lower their head before their front feet leave the ground from sit, to STRETCH out and push with the rears as they grab their first piece of sod with the front feet. When I run both my dogs from heel, one heels left, one right, the honor dog will lower its head when the go dog leaves on its name. To back up a hair, I inherited the second dog and HAD to change his name. My bitches name is Gracie, and his name was Ace. He HEARD his name when I ran Gracie first because of my southern accent. His name is now Eli (E-lie). That change was enough to sort out ANY confusion for either dog. So, that in mind, does the lowering of the head by the honor dog merit a correction, and by what means and to what degree would the correction best suit the scenario, collar, stick, *grinnin* clicker?

Blast-great thread by the way, all who have posted please respond with correction method and psychology of why you would choose this method and of course subsequent corrections. Everyone is welcomed to respond of course I would like to hear of the logic behind your correction.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Blast

First, the collar is only one tool. Other tools are lead, stick, and voice. Just because you use a collar, doesn't mean you abandon others.

Second, my view is that dogs violate sit in many ways, not just the way you decribe. Some dogs dance, tapping their front paws and raising their butt. Others lower head, crouch and raise butt. 

Third, my standard is butt planted on ground, front paws planted too. I will make exception if test is wide open and I must make the dog travel through a long arc - for example one bird is at 9 o clock and another at 3 o clock. But in such instance, I will either be moving into the dog or moving away from the dog - cueing him, telling him I want him to move with me.

Fourth, the correction depends on nature of infraction (is it just a twitch, is the first time I have seen the behavior, what happened yesterday). When I come to the line, assume dog on left (I have two sided dogs), short rope lead in left hand, stick and collar in right. I will jerk on lead if forward movement of paws or crouch with butt lifted (typically on marks as they fall). In contrast, if after returning with a bird, the dog moves forward after giving me the bird, I will stick him across the chest because I find stick on butt tends to drive a moving dog forward. I may also nick for latter. 

Big moment (or repeated little ones) may merit stick and collar.

Remember don't nag if you want this to mean anything. You come to the line, dog gets positioned, you say sit. Don't say sit (sit, sit, sit, sit, sit)along the way. If dog violates standard, then you say sit with appropriate correction.

Ted


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

:flasingsmile: Like our friend, Peake, I enjoy threads about training more than any others! This one has been great.

I?m in such complete agreement with Ted that I only have a couple of things to add in answering your question. The degree of correction is something I temper with how I read the dog, along with how I read the degree of infraction. It?s a balance with each dog because each one tolerates a slightly different degree of discipline while operating at optimal levels. Some dogs, when the standard is too strictly enforced, don?t mark quite as well, for example.

When you see a behavior in a dog that you associate with breaking, you are seeing a symptom of it. (2. sign of something else: a sign or indication of the existence of something, especially something undesirable ? Encarta online dictionary) The cause of the outward behavior began before the symptom became visible. It?s the thought process, which is governed by what the dog has come to expect or anticipate. Part of what we are all talking about here is the ?sit? standard our dogs expect to live with. Sometimes that is a different standard, depending on who is running the dog.

Evan


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Evan said:


> :flasingsmile: Like our friend, Peake, I enjoy threads about training more than any others! This one has been great.


It was good to see this level of discussion in the archives...great thread.


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## Blast (Jan 3, 2003)

You know, It was quite a treat to find this thread referral in my in box from 2003, as I have not been around in quite some time. 
I re-read the post and found myself re living some great threads from some very talented people who have made their way around and through this forum since we moved to this page quite some time ago. 
I miss all of you and think of you often. Chris and I stay in touch but I have lost touch with most of you and I am sure there are a lot of you who dont have a clue who I am.
To thos of you who know me, thank-you for all the valuable information and spirited banter and valued friendships I have made through this forum. I have gained a lot from quite a few of you and I appriciate all the input over the years.
Thanks to all
Blast-crawls back to his cave, lights a cigarette and sands the rust off his clicker.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Brother Blast! Wooohoooo!

I know what you've been up to and it's the important stuff...Congrats on that little milestone I got to share via telephone Saturday! 

She's one sweet little girl.... I think Sammy and Max will have but one more "item" to fight over after they meet her in person!

- Chris, wondering if Jeff T's gonna dig up the "good dog" thread.


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## Blast (Jan 3, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Brother Blast! Wooohoooo!
> 
> I know what you've been up to and it's the important stuff...Congrats on that little milestone I got to share via telephone Saturday!
> 
> ...


what do u say boy?,, That was my Dad's greeting to me EVERY single day of my life that I can remember when he would get home from work. I use it as an endearment meant for just a few. As always it was great to hear from you my friend.
Dont be a stranger and dont forget to change that cork.
Blast- ut oh,,,,,,,,,,saw a real name thread, fine,,,,,,,,,,Hairy Harper


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## jeff t. (Jul 24, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Brother Blast! Wooohoooo!
> 
> I know what you've been up to and it's the important stuff...Congrats on that little milestone I got to share via telephone Saturday!
> 
> ...


Need a search function to do that! (not that I would). 

Actually what works is to look at the profiles of RTF users who usually have thoughtful and thought provoking posts. Even without a working search function it is possible to see all of the posts from that user, which leads to some interesting threads..IMO.

Jeff 

Jeff


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thanks Ted!!!

Interesting post!

I know I have MAJOR problems at the line with both my dogs! I have been told before its my standards in regards to sit.

But as you are aware in HRC tests, the dog has to learn to swing with the gun! Some dogs do this calmly, others that are Amped up like mine, dont do it well at all. 

Its hard to enforce the sit command, when sometimes the dog may have to swivel 180 degree to see all three marks! My dogs BOTH tend to creep out in front!

What I have tried to do is "split the diffence " and "sit "the dog faceing the centerline of the triple, and enforce the sit command sternly!
At a test, as I swing the gun around in front of the dog,, I will inevitably get a creep, or a standing dog, on the verge of breaking!

What would your sugestions be??

The Go get-em dogs are fun to watch, but a real challenge of a everyday doofus likes myself to train

Gooser


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## bruce (May 18, 2004)

*Thanks*

Let me join Gooser in thanking Ted and Evan and the rest of y'all for this thread. It has meant a lot to me over the years and helped me on more than just SIt means SIt. I try to live up to the spirit of this post if not the letter everday. 8)


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## ksubigbuck (Apr 30, 2006)

This is an awesome thread!!! Good job guys and gals. Now I think I need to go do some last minute training...my pup's first HT is this weekend, and while he is steady during training I don't yet trust him in a test environment. He is a very high dog, and I realize now that to him sit probably doesn't mean sit, and that is certainly one of my faults as a new trainer

Hunter


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

I have the same problem as Ted (and others). I have adopted the same methods. Another thing that seems to help are lots of heeling drills and no less than 60% of it is reverse heeling. Finally the hardest part are patience and consistency.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Terrific stuff, I'm going to start printing threads like that and catalog them in a ring binder. I have a buddy who is having problems with creeping at trials, and Saturday night I talked to Steve Blythe about it, and in much less detail he said the same things Ted said in his post.

We were out throwing marks last night, and my friend found that there were many many opportunities to get in corrections when we were throwing marks. Wow, did it effect her marking. But we know she can mark at the AA level already, so he just has to concentrate on that problem. Her marking will come back...


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## blind ambition (Oct 8, 2006)

[quote="Ted Shih]

When I ran the dogs' legs off on blinds, they would still race out after the birds, but be more considered about it. If I didn?t run the blinds, I was doomed. The dogs were just too pumped to be a FT. If they had to sit in the truck and wait, they would be running all over God?s country in the first series. Things got somewhat better last year at age 4, but they still needed the blinds to blow some of the steam out of them.

Last Spring, my two 4 year old littermates each had a win and each needed two points to qualify for the National. So, I pushed hard ... I ran too many trials in a row ... and got nothing. What?s worse, the dogs line manners got worse. One moral - be careful not to run too many trials in a row!

So, Cherylon and I dissected what was going wrong. There were some things that we could not address or did not want to address. Neither Cherylon nor I wanted to take the drive out of the dogs. It is too big a part of what we enjoy about the game. We thought (and this year may tell us so) that age would probably take care of some of the problem.

Then we started to work on me. And we discovered sit did not mean sit to the dogs when I was running them. They knew that the standard was different for me than for Cherylon.

Ok, so what do I mean when I say sit means sit.

It means in training (and of course at a FT) to the dog that:

You don?t get out of the dog box until I say so.
You don?t move after you get out of the dog box until I say so.
When I am walking to the holding blind (and I use a very short lead - a 6" climbing rope with no loop attached to a choke chain, which makes it easy for me to identify surging by the dog - and which can remain on the dog for land marks), you must sit when I stop.

It means that when I call for the birds, ANY movement calls for correction (either 6" lead or stick).

It means when you return with the bird, reposition, and sit, ANY movement without my direction calls for correction.

It means that after you gives me the bird, ANY movement without my direction calls for correction.

The standard is ANY (and I do mean ANY) movement.

When a handler can say that he or she truly honors that standard (in training - there are always some allowances that need to be made at a FT), then Sit means Sit.


My guess is that if you videotape yourself, you will find that sit really does not mean to the dog what you think it means.[/quote]



This is such a great thread, I hope no one minds if I bring the essential paragraphs from Ted's initial post up to today's date.

Often I get so caught up in what I can see may dogs do in the field that I get loose on the "little things" (ironic) like a rock solid sit. It takes a great trainer or a great discussion group to help me refocus back to this issue because ignoring line manners means that I am missing the opportunity to see just how great their field work could be!


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

One more thing that can help with overall compliance to obedience is maintaining that high standard with daily activities. All dogs sit at doors and gates and wait for the human to go through first. Dogs wait at the bottom/top of stairs for the human to go up or down first. 

My daughters poodle relearned this lesson the hard way the other night. Things are kind of muddy here right now. Our dogs sleep in crates in the basement and my wife wants no mud in the house so at night I bring the dogs in and out through the cellar doors. The poodle was in and I was taking her out to get the other dogs through the cellar doors. As soon as I opened the first door she shot up the stairs. She is small, cute and bad! A half second later I heard the bang as she ran into the closed cellar doors at the top of the stairs! The past couple of nights I have had too call her up after I opened them.

When you maintain a high standard throughout the day you recognize when erosion of obedience begins much sooner.

Tom


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Ted Shih said:


> Ok, so what do I mean when I say sit means sit.
> 
> It means in training (and of course at a FT) to the dog that:
> 
> ...


I read this in an old issue of Online Magazine recently and it referenced that it was posted here first, so I searched for the thread because I had some questions. Unfortunately those questions have not been asked in this thread yet.

I would like to apply all of this to my dog, but I've got a couple of questions. First with regard to "You don't get out of the dog box until I say so." How do you implement/execute this? Do you say "sit" before you open the door or do you just require that he does not exit even though you have given no verbal command?

My other question is in regard to "You don't move after you get out of the dog box until I say so." Same deal, do you say sit after he gets out of the box? Does he then sit on the tailgate or ground until you release him or is he to sit without verbal cue immediately on exiting the crate?

I'm guessing you start both of these with a verbal "sit" and eventually the dog comes to anticipate it so you don't have to say it. Is that correct? I make my dog sit before I put his food bowl down and he cannot move until I release him. Now I usually don't even have to tell him to sit, he just does. Is that the kind of deal we are talking about here?

Thanks!


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

I feel your pain and relate to the line manners issue. This year _any_ movement even front paw pumping earns a crop.


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Huntin dawg
In answer to your 1st question, Say sit, and don't open the door until he sits (assuming he understands and obeys sit reliably) eventually you won't have to. He'll just get used to the routine and the "Look". If he stands up before a command, close the door again.
Question 2- Same answer as question 1

question 3 "Is that correct?" YES

Question 4 "Is that the deal here?" YES

Good routines to have.


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

Boy is this a timely repost. We run our first Hunt Test this Saturday (yippee!) and in our dry run today it seems that "happy feet" have graduated into a step or two (guess I need more marks with duck calls, shots, and flying birds).  

Anyway, I think I'm going to print this and read it before every training session. In fact, I'm going to paste it to the front of my training log (that I always take with me). 

Thanks Ted, for starting this thread. It's great stuff like this that really makes this forum great (well, the five page thread on "got rope" and two pages on eating goose poop are entertaining also :lol: )

I'm really on the fence about whether or not to restrain him at the line (we're running Junior). I didn't think I needed to, until training today. My current thought is that I won't, since I have one opportunity to recall. If I need to use it, I'll restrain at the line after that. (comments on this plan are welcome)


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## DL (Jan 13, 2003)

HuntinDawg,

I teach my dogs not to bust out of the kennel just by saying 'wait' and holding them back as a little puppy, then saying 'ok' and releasing them. That graduates to backing away, and pushing them back in if they pop there feet out.

To release them from the kennel, I can say 'ok' or 'here'. 'Here' means to come to me and sit. Unfortunately 'ok' means to run around like a crazy animal.


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## James A. (Mar 28, 2005)

Ted,

Excellent Post!


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Scott Adams said:


> Huntin dawg
> In answer to your 1st question, Say sit, and don't open the door until he sits (assuming he understands and obeys sit reliably) eventually you won't have to. He'll just get used to the routine and the "Look". If he stands up before a command, close the door again.
> Question 2- Same answer as question 1
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification. The more I thought about it the more I figured that must be the way to implement it. So I tried it for the first time today. He complied, but looked at me as if I was scolding him (I wasn't and I didn't have to raise my voice). It was a funny reaction to my imposing that new standard on him. I guess that shows that it will have an impact on his mentality.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Ron in Portland said:


> I'm really on the fence about whether or not to restrain him at the line (we're running Junior). I didn't think I needed to, until training today. My current thought is that I won't, since I have one opportunity to recall. If I need to use it, I'll restrain at the line after that. (comments on this plan are welcome)


Well Ron you asked, so here goes. You may be a more experienced trainer and handler than I am (it wouldn't take that much), but here is my two cents worth:

When I attend a hunt test I have a few goals in mind:

1) Nobody gets hurt.
2) I'm here to claim a ribbon...and another one tomorrow.
3) Don't let any bad habits get started.
4) Have fun.

With that in mind, I suggest that you hold your dog. You don't get any extra credit for him being steady, but if you choose to not restrain him then he is judged on it (in other words, you have caused him to become subject to judgement on something that he would not otherwise be required to do). I have done what you are suggesting years ago in a Started Test. I was quite proud of my dog and a little cocky. My dog was steady. I don't need to hold him. I'll show you even though you didn't ask to see it. He didn't break, but looking back it wasn't a smart thing to do (in my opinion). I didn't pay my money and spend my time traveling to and attending the test just to fail (potentially) for something that my dog didn't have to prove anyway.

It just doesn't make sense to me and it goes directly against #2 and #3 above. If this is your dog's first hunt test there will be plenty of new things to excite and distract him, don't handicap him by making him prove something that he doesn't need to prove. He will have plenty of chances to prove his steadiness in Senior and Master.

Whatever approach you decide to take, Good Luck!


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## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

HuntinDawg said:


> ...but here is my two cents worth:


To me that sounds like it's worth more than two cents. :lol: 

I read your post to my wife, and when I got to the part about being proud of your dog, and a little cocky, she said, "Hey! That's you!" :shock: 

What you say makes a lot of sense. Why prove what they're not testing on, and I have plenty of time to prove it in Senior and Master. My concern was in trying to set a standard now and avoid having to correct later. A good friend was telling me today, a test is not a time to train. The objective is to get the pass and have a good time. 

I think I'll try to go with that. Thanks!

(anyone here going to the Hunt Test in Rogue Valley this weekend?)


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Ron in Portland said:


> HuntinDawg said:
> 
> 
> > ...but here is my two cents worth:
> ...


I'm sure you will do well.

Have fun!


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## Chris S. (Dec 15, 2004)

Bump - Great thread


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Well, I think consistance in training for sit-means-sit is a huge part of it. I know at training I am the hugest offender of lack of consistance. Darla is a huge creeper. Sometimes I bring my stick, and sometimes not. She pretty much gets nicked every time I call for birds for creeping during the first set-up. I get caught up in concentrating on making her focus on each particular bird, or focusing on making myself slow down, or anything else on the line, and then when she creeps I have to heel her back. Then the next bird goes and I get the creep, and so on. There is so much happening on the line that I forget to concentrate on that.

Mostly when I am on my way to the line, I am concentrating on making her heel, she is ready to blast to the line. She can hardly wait. So by the time I get there now I have to concentrate again. Grrr! Any movement I make, whether it is lining up for a blind, whatever, she is creeping. Then we have the fight. I HAVE to be more consistant. 

I am glad Ted brought this up. Reminds me to make a commitment to that portion of the training. OMG! There is so much...


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

DEDEYE said:


> Well, I think consistance in training for sit-means-sit is a huge part of it. I know at training I am the hugest offender of lack of consistance. Darla is a huge creeper. Sometimes I bring my stick, and sometimes not. She pretty much gets nicked every time I call for birds for creeping during the first set-up. I get caught up in concentrating on making her focus on each particular bird, or focusing on making myself slow down, or anything else on the line, and then when she creeps I have to heel her back. Then the next bird goes and I get the creep, and so on. There is so much happening on the line that I forget to concentrate on that.
> 
> Mostly when I am on my way to the line, I am concentrating on making her heel, she is ready to blast to the line. She can hardly wait. So by the time I get there now I have to concentrate again. Grrr! Any movement I make, whether it is lining up for a blind, whatever, she is creeping. Then we have the fight. I HAVE to be more consistant.
> 
> I am glad Ted brought this up. Reminds me to make a commitment to that portion of the training. OMG! There is so much...


I had a major league creeper. I learned that I had better give her a nick the very instant she moved even one foot from the place it started. It's hard for a dog to creep without moving their front feet. The momentary mode on the collar is very effective at "freezing" a creeper. It was successful for me, anyway. Her line manners are about as good as any you will see at a field trial. She RARELY gets corrected for line manners these days.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Charles C. said:


> I had a major league creeper. I learned that I had better give her a nick the very instant she moved even one foot from the place it started. It's hard for a dog to creep without moving their front feet. The momentary mode on the collar is very effective at "freezing" a creeper. It was successful for me, anyway. Her line manners are about as good as any you will see at a field trial. She RARELY gets corrected for line manners these days.


LOL! You haven't seen the wonders of the Darla Creep! She can do it by scrunching her feet and moving! Seriously, I will be working on that and trying to be consistant. I have to bring my stick AND collar. Quit leaving the stick in the truck. You know, sometimes I think she actually likes the collar. You know, like a person getting a tattoo... She likes the endorphines. Do it again!! Wahoooo! :shock: ANyhow...


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

DEDEYE said:


> LOL! You know, sometimes I think she actually likes the collar. You know, like a person getting a tattoo... She likes the endorphines. Do it again! Wahoooo! ANyhow...


LOL is right, Rudy used to get corrected with the wiffle ball bat, throughout the entire process her only problem was the bat getting in the way of her seeing the test. I always thought it pumped her up more, when it was over, let her rip, yaahoo!


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## Dog Pro (Apr 9, 2008)

Bravo post,now if i could just get my clients to adhere to the same standards that i expect,then the world would truly be a good place.



Train Smarter not harder


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## DEN/TRU/CRU (May 29, 2007)

As my Pro would say,"ARE YOU ASKING YOUR DOG OR TELLING YOUR DOG"?? If your asking........, we'll it's one of my problems and I have to constently work on it.


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## Tom Mouer (Aug 26, 2003)

I am , like many others, enjoying this thread. Many years ago I read a chapter in one of Bill Tarrants' books about how he dealt with the "sit, creep, break" problem by having a person stationed behind the dog with instructions to "tackle" the dog as the movement began. I didn't have a person behind me to assist, but I used the technique on 2 of my dogs and the method worked quite well. Knocked the breath out of both the dog and handler! Dog(s) got the"message" quickly. Always got compliments re steadiness at "tower shoots", in the blind, etc. "Sit means sit".


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Ted
Yours is an excellent post but it also brought something else to light. From your description it sounds like you behave differently prior to and during a trial than you do during training. I have seen this in other people a lot and the result is a trial wise dog, not because he knows the difference between a trial and training by sight but more likely because he was TAUGHT the difference by a trainer that behaved differently on trial days.
If you want your dog to behave the same on trial days then you need to work on giving him the right clues. He is ultra sensitive to your moods, your intensidy, your nervousness and your competetive nature. When you step onto the trial grounds ready to kick butt the dog knows it and he gets amped up because you are amped up.
I found that the calmer I was the better the dog performed.
If I read you wrong please accept my appology.
Lynn


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

This is one of the better threads on RTF. And it comes at such a good time what with the snow melting and water warming and Spring Trials starting.

Thank you Ted!


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## JDogger (Feb 2, 2003)

We have a four year old HT girl that was developing noise issues at the line and other times as well. We started a couple months ago revisiting "sit". No latitude, zero tolerence. 
Sit means sit, and sit quietly. Absolute enforcement in every circumstance from greeting ritual, to feeding time to training. Verbal corrections were coming along, but slowly. Then I found in the garage an old puppy training tool that had been forgotten. The plastic soft drink bottle filled with a dozen or so pennies. When I picked it up and shook it... Boom, her butt went down and her attention was riveted on me. It was a tool we had used during basic OB during puppyhood to startle her and get her attention. She remembered it. Noise issues are now coming under control. We let her get away with it, our fault, but now we don't. Sit means sit, and sit quietly until given a command to do something else. Every single, solitary time, without exception!

JD


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## ChrisRobt (Apr 5, 2005)

Seeing the query about steadying a 3 y/o, I thought it would be helpful to pull this excellent thread back to the front page.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Hey thanks ! Great Christmas present as I prepare my girl for running three quals in two days ,three weeks from now at the 3 DQ.


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## Scott Sutton (Jul 5, 2008)

to the top! Great posts!


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## cgoeson (Jan 22, 2008)

Wow, I read about the first 20 posts before I realized they were from 2003. Interesting how some things in the dog world never change.


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## Brett Krause (Jun 8, 2008)

Relative newbie here.
Great informative thread.


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## Jennifer Teed (Jan 28, 2009)

Agreed, this is definitely a great thread.

I am also a 'newbie', but I am very interested in FT. Unfortunately they are not available in my area, and I'd have to drive a good 20 hours to get to one. I think I've started my pup in the right direction, and with lots more research and time devoted to training, maybe I'll trek that 20 hours just to experience it.


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## torrey (May 15, 2008)

Not only a bump for a great thread, but a question.

I'm guilty of not enforcing commands 100% of the time the way I should so I know that is something I need to work on. Here's my question...If I tell my dog to sit while I'm talking to someone, walking away from her, etc and she lies down, is that also a 'Sit means Sit' situation? Should I correct for her lying down if I told her to sit? 

I've seen some really well behaved labs sitting at heel for a few minutes when their owner is talking to another person or doing something and the dog lies down and I've never seen anyone correct their dog for that.


As a follow up to this question, when teaching steadiness at the line, the thread brought up the scenario where a dog become's trial-wise (no stick, e-collar, etc at tests). Do people train for that situation...training steadiness without the collar and stick, and if so, what drills do people use?


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

If I had a dog lay down after an extended sit I would give him a dog bone and a pat on the head.


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## Scott Harris (Mar 16, 2005)

twall said:


> One more thing that can help with overall compliance to obedience is maintaining that high standard with daily activities. All dogs sit at doors and gates and wait for the human to go through first. Dogs wait at the bottom/top of stairs for the human to go up or down first.
> 
> My daughters poodle relearned this lesson the hard way the other night. Things are kind of muddy here right now. Our dogs sleep in crates in the basement and my wife wants no mud in the house so at night I bring the dogs in and out through the cellar doors. The poodle was in and I was taking her out to get the other dogs through the cellar doors. As soon as I opened the first door she shot up the stairs. She is small, cute and bad! A half second later I heard the bang as she ran into the closed cellar doors at the top of the stairs! The past couple of nights I have had too call her up after I opened them.
> 
> ...


This is a tough post to add to but great one to read. I like this line of thinking to add to Teds standard as I tell my clients dogs are always learning. They are not like us where two different people can take the same college course and one studies and works at it all the time and the other just stays up late the night before class and knocks it out and they both perform the same on the test or get the same grade(abilities being the same). I guess in the long run you may or may not see results from this but it is different and we have different styles that work for us. Most of you know better than me so maybe you have or have seen that special dog that can cram for a test . By no means am I saying that dogs are all the same here, so please dont think that at all. I worked with Larry Sonntag up in WI for a bit and there were times where I thought get the dog to the line already, but he took his ol sweet time and sometimes put them up and had me work on other stuff with them. Later when we were with training groups it all made sense, my light bulb moment. This helped me a bunch with what I do now and I tell my clients dont rush to impress or finish something or get caught up in what others think, set your standard (its only yours) and dont give in. I dont care how many people stare or think you are crazy or taking too long as the dog is learning and those little battles pay off BIG down the road. Good post and great follow up. I bet there are other simple things out there that many of you do day to day that are not big or super fun but give you that little extra control or prevent some very slight bad habits that can pop up later on. If so please share because you cant get anywhere without a solid foundation. Flow charts are great but the little tiny things in there are huge. I know that the videos and books cover many of these things and I am thankful to Evan and the many others that share that stuff and clarify it. I am passing it on if thats ok.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

........ bump.........


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## Bud (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks for the bump Ken, it was a good read. Describes my dog Sunday and why I am glad I was not running two days in a row. He did pass (HRC Seasoned) but he was jacked up. I got a controlled break after a no-bird and when returning from marks had to work to get him backed up all the way in (I didn't let him go until he was) and even then he would not sit for the second mark. He was steady and would not go until I sent him but he would not sit. I am trying really hard not to run any more tests this spring, giving him less exposure to the tests and more time to train for fall.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Bud said:


> Thanks for the bump Ken, it was a good read. Describes my dog Sunday and why I am glad I was not running two days in a row. He did pass (HRC Seasoned) but he was jacked up. I got a controlled break after a no-bird and when returning from marks had to work to get him backed up all the way in (I didn't let him go until he was) and even then he would not sit for the second mark. He was steady and would not go until I sent him but he would not sit. I am trying really hard not to run any more tests this spring, giving him less exposure to the tests and more time to train for fall.


I had the same situation at the same test.
Saturday manners were fine.
Sunday at the stick pond he was a whole different dog.
He broke on the walk up, I got him back.
He broke on the first water retreive, I got him back but he never saw the 2nd mark..
Pulled him out for the afternoon.
Not sure when we will run again, probably won't run 2 Seasoned in 1 weekend again.

Point??
Sit evidently had a different meaning Sunday.




rk


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## Timber Freak (May 25, 2009)

Great read. I have a butt raiser that can take a lot of stick/collar pressure and not be phased. So now its going to be raise your butt get back on the truck.


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## BrianW (May 10, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> But as you are aware in HRC tests, the dog has to learn to swing with the gun! Some dogs do this calmly, others that are Amped up like mine, dont do it well at all.
> 
> Its hard to enforce the sit command, when sometimes the dog may have to swivel 180 degree to see all three marks! My dogs BOTH tend to creep out in front!
> 
> ...


Since this thread was brought back up, (Thanks, by the way) unless I missed it, no one addressed Gooser's situation/question regarding HRC. 

Also having some issues with this subject as uber-enforcement of ""Sit" meaning "SIT!"/concrete feet has apparently caused some problems of *not* swinging all the way with the gun in widely separated marks and missing the intermediate or go birds. Allowing the movement can result in a creep as dog seems to think (at least imo) "Well, if I CAN move, I'm going to move to my best advantage, not just the minimum needed. " 
Any suggestions for a good compromise greatly appreciated.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

There's a fella' that I know of, who has a pic of his dog at the edge of a creek on the shoreline in a LA. swamp, with a 'Gator licking his chops, and swimming in the general direction of the dog...to my recollection the dog was about to cross that creek, and was commanded to SIT! (in a hurry)..and I'll tell ya' ..SIT! had better mean SIT! to a dog that's in a situation like that,..it could be a difference of life or death for sure, regardless of what we think it means to them...


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## honkerhavens (Dec 28, 2010)

thanks guys for all the input on the creeping. when casey is out of her kennel and has the bathroom duties out of the way we do some yard training. she does not leave the kennel until i release her .when in the kennel i just point to the top of her dog house and she will kennen on top of it. when we go to the shed i sit her at the door and she stays til i come out. i walk pass her without saying anything to her as i walk away. the only movement she will make is turn 180 to see me. when i am away from her a ways i will say here and she will come. 

since i work her by my self she does the creeping when i go to put out marks. like some of u said a place mat helps some. i hace a tree stump in the yard i put her on and she will stay on it very well until released. 

this is one of the best forums ever. to read the comments u people put on her is unreal. keep up the good work i look forward to it.

dean


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## mnduckhunter (May 4, 2010)

like some of u said a place mat helps some. i hace a tree stump in the yard i put her on and she will stay on it very well until released. 

Old tires with a piece of plywood on it works. 

I made three stands, 2 out of 2x6's and one out of 2x12. 2 foot by 2 foot square with a piece of plywood on top. 

If my pup (she is at the trainers), ever moves (anything other then properly sitting), she gets the correction (choke chain and 6 foot lead). Then moves on to the e-collar later on. 

Still a newbie to the dog training. 

Good read.


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## Dustin D (Jan 12, 2012)

A few current topics have been sharing this link. Might as well BTT

Lot's of knowledge to be had in this topic for certain.


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## Brian Cockfield (Jun 4, 2003)

Lots of old RTF personalities that don't come around any more posted in this thread. This was a good one and it's a good reminder to keep your standards high in training.


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## SjSmith (Oct 25, 2011)

What a lot of posts to read through on a great thread.

My 10 mo old BLF is in early phases of FF but recently developed the creep while marking.
Am I thinking right in using stick pressure , collar nicks, lead w/ choker, etc., separate and together to develope the standard that we want to achieve?
Sometimes the retreive is denied and sometimes I just re-heel her with no pressure.

???


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## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

Fantastic Thread! Speaks to my dog's biggest weakness and no doubt trainer induced. Thanks for posting Ted.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Goosers opinion!

I think a link to this thread should be a sticky!!

Gooser


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Goosers opinion!
> 
> I think a link to this thread should be a sticky!!
> 
> Gooser


Has anyone ever considered a hall-of-fame subforum for threads? Or something like that. The community could vote to place threads there, or the mods could choose...


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## Phild (Apr 22, 2013)

I want to thank Scott Adams, Labber for putting me on to this read, I considered my little black girl pretty steady but after reading this my "sit don't mean sit" but it will from now on. I do the in and out of doors every day rule, before food, crossing a street, before see meets people. But nothing compares to that quack of a duck, sound or a shot and a bird flying thru the air. She might not be breaking but on the shot her head jumps, an indicator that she has the potential to break. I know this now after reading this entire thread. Thanks to everyone that has contributed.

Thanks
Phil


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> Joe
> 
> In many respects, "sit" is simply a synonym for "control." When you enforce sit, you are enforcing control.
> 
> ...


Yes... I had complete lack of control this weekend at the Medford trial.. Creeping, bouncing, head swinging, and so I picked up.. In training at one particular property, I don't have these problems. I think one thing that would help is for me to get to different property more often to get Spanky more jacked up so I can get those corrections in.. Also, the video idea is good.. I think that when a person allowes this in training, he/she just becomes part of the problem without even realizing it's happening.. Dog steps up, so you step up.. I remember one time Howard and I were arguing about whether I was doing something stupid over and over, and so he made a lovely video of me doing everything he said I was doing.. Boy did I feel stupid....


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

DEDEYE said:


> Yes... I had complete lack of control this weekend at the Medford trial.. Creeping, bouncing, head swinging, and so I picked up.. In training at one particular property, I don't have these problems. I think one thing that would help is for me to get to different property more often to get Spanky more jacked up so I can get those corrections in.. Also, the video idea is good.. I think that when a person allowes this in training, he/she just becomes part of the problem without even realizing it's happening.. Dog steps up, so you step up.. I remember one time Howard and I were arguing about whether I was doing something stupid over and over, and so he made a lovely video of me doing everything he said I was doing.. Boy did I feel stupid....


I've seen the same videos of me. After all this time, I thought my Indy dog was going to make it through a simple senior hunt test. Nope. I really do believe its just too late for him, and hope that my young one is able to go on and benefit from all that I learned not to do. And I am going to keep my husband running that video for me as we go along.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

This thread is 12+ years old and I have read it a couple of times in the past year. I am bumping it for the new guys like me who think or thought that "good enough" is good enough. It's not and it will bite you in the end. Been there and doing that.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

as great a thread now as when it was first started...


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