# MH marks thread? anyone?



## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I'd love to get a discussion going similar to the ones regarding marks for the field trial dogs... Unfortunately I do not have any field pictures.....

anyone?

Juli


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Juli H said:


> I'd love to get a discussion going similar to the ones regarding marks for the field trial dogs... Unfortunately I do not have any field pictures.....
> 
> anyone?
> 
> Juli


Use the same blank pictures and tell us what you think would be a good test


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is a pic of a field I often use for hunt test set ups.










I have enjoyed the mark and blind discussions. Maybe this pic will help.
Mark L.

P. S. The cover was low at this time but we worked on 3 peats angling through the tall grass on the terrace


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Don't know how to get at the pic so here goes.
Memory bird thrown in from deep hay bale on the left landing so the line is just to the left and tight to the haybale in front of it. Flyer station hidden and deep of the tall cover on the right and shot landing deep of the right hand hay bale so the line is between the two hay bales on the right. Double blind - first is just deep of the single center haybale. Second blind is deep to the left to the dark spot at the bottom of the hill. 

Looking for: Dogs must mark the memory bird after the long run for the flyer. ON the 1st blind, lots of flyer influence deep. Must exhibit control to get the shorter and near an obstacle blind. Long blind
just did a short mark and then a short blind. Must drive and not break down. The hill should cause some push to the right once they are past the short memory bird.

If you wanted a triple throw left to right so left hand blind is under the arc.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)




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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Juli,

That would be asking for a lot of control from a flyer so it does not get to far right or left.
How did you do the pretty lines and arcs?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

brandywinelabs said:


> Juli,
> 
> That would be asking for a lot of control from a flyer so it does not get to far right or left.
> How did you do the pretty lines and arcs?


probably....could shorten it some - so that it is landing closer to the side of the bale...I'd like to see the flyer remain in that location - changing it to throw to the other side, would open up the test IMO...though you could do an out of order flyer like that, I think....

windows paint... 

Juli


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## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

fishduck said:


> Here is a pic of a field I often use for hunt test set ups.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mark,

we need to train together! Im in Bham...


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's a water photo. The "look" is from on top of a steep 12' mound. This height gives a better perspective of the water. The backside of the near pond has a narrow, diagonal levee in front of a gradually widening channel (10-15 yds across) where a dog is out sight momentarily (or not). 

The green area in the pond with a small tree growing on the right is an island. Behind this island is a small sliver of land coming off the bottom left corner of a penisula. To the right is the tilted, L shaped peninsula with a pocket of water behind it. 

We've run setups off the mound and from both sides. Swimming water is immediate everywhere except for a small section of lunging water on the backside of the island.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I don't like shooting the flyer into the test. The unpredictability of the fall can make it a very difficult test for some dogs. Toughen up other birds if you need to, but shoot the flyer to the left.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Hmmm, perhaps Dave Gibson and Jeff Goodwin have more "field pics."

Dave, when you post pics of your set ups could you post a "clean" pic along with the one you've drawn on?

Now that it doesn't take me an hour to mark up a photo I hate to see it end.

John Lash


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

It is hard to tell, but the water looks awful tight for more than a double without expecting handles on the marks. But pictures can be deceiving.
Looks like a great place for a double blind.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Warren if you are willing to make the drive from Birmingham to Sulligent you are welcome to train anytime. I have access to lots of land. Water has and will continue to me my Achilles heel. Central Alabama HRC will be having a training day sometime in February around Boligee and our hunt test follows in March.

I have to agree the cover was too low at the time to do much.
Mark L.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Thomas D said:


> I don't like shooting the flyer into the test. The unpredictability of the fall can make it a very difficult test for some dogs. Toughen up other birds if you need to, but shoot the flyer to the left.


perhaps you could switch the flyer to number one, and do an out of order flyer?

Juli


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Juli H said:


> perhaps you could switch the flyer to number one, and do an out of order flyer?
> 
> Juli


Still need to throw it to the left


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is my test. Assuming wind from Lt to Rt. As there is little cover we are making difficulty with concepts and slots. Blue dots mark the double blinds. The right hand blind is placed at the base of the haybale.











The flyer is thrown first and should provide little difficulty but will effect the left hand blind and may cause some to go out of sight behind the bales. Mark 2 is thrown inline with the 2cd blind. Mark 3 is thrown indented and will land in the edge of the tall grass. Some dogs will blow by it and have to hunt back and it may eat enough memory to cause trouble with the other marks.

The majority of the difficulty with this test is the blinds. Dogs fading with the wind and the influence of the dead bird marks may end up behind the tall Johnson grass and will be unlikely to recover on the Right hand blind. In addition it is difficult to get a dog to run directly to the base of a haybale.

The flyer crate and feathers from the shot ducks will provide major suction for the left hand blind. If the dog gets behind the bales recovery will be difficult.

All in all it is a technical test of mostly a conceptual nature. Not something that would be fun to run or judge. But when provided with such terrible grounds difficulty must come from elsewhere. Sorry it was one of the few pics I had without stickmen.
Mark L.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Help.
When I save the file of the field it is huge 2,305 KB.
SO it won't upload.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Juli H said:


>


Is that flyer shot in towards the line, ducking for cover regards


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

no - it thrown directly away from the line....as the description says.  the yellow dots represent the bird

Juli


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

brandywinelabs said:


> Help.
> When I save the file of the field it is huge 2,305 KB.
> SO it won't upload.


 
if you go to your photo editor and resize you should be able to get it smaller..>I always choose the 'save for web' option.

Juli


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

thoughts on this setup?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Julie!!

I'm sorry to say this but You and Gooser thinks just alike!!

I drew the exact set-up, but then saw your picture!!

I think I have had my first "Zen" moment!!

I would just change the order to center, right, left!, even though I got a dog with the nickname "CREEPY":razz:

Prolly would turn into "BREAKY"
Gooser


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

If the little white circles are where the birds land, that number 4 mark hanging up in the sky is going to one more tough mark.

Forgive me, I could not resist.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I ssume the red lines are Blinds??

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Thats the one Gooser missed!! Only One Mind you!!

Gooser


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

yes - and I did not know if one would be better than the other...or you could be real mean and do both of them, running one after the marks are down. mwahahahahaha.

Juli


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## Cthomas (Sep 21, 2003)

This is fun.
I hope we do lots of these in the future.
Wind info would be interesting.
Chris


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Walt The good dogs don't run the bank.The average ones may for a while but will get in the water. There will be a few run the bank.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Juli H said:


> thoughts on this setup?


I like the idea just not the order

about how big is this pond??

not sure about the 2nd mark...with any type of wind the bird in the water will drift?? I would make this the go bird and the longest bird the memory bird..

Blinds???
this would be a double blind?? correct...


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

wackemnstackem said:


> I like the idea just not the order
> 
> about how big is this pond??
> 
> ...


I had originally had the short bird as the go bird.... changed it because I thought that if you wanted to do a flyer, then #3 would be the likely option... now, if you ran it as set up, I do not think drift on such a short bird would be a big deal...most likely you would pick up the middle mark, then come back and pick up the short bird, then the last one on the right. then again, you might not...depending on how you thought the order would affect your dog.

the blinds are not necessarily a double blind - I think that would take too much time...just a couple of options.....

Juli


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Juli H said:


> thoughts on this setup?


A few concerns:

Do you run the blinds or the marks first? 
I see problems either way with mark #1 and the associated blind with both scent for latter dogs and if blind is first how do want to judge return to the blind when doing the mark. 
If you run the marks first. How about eliminating the right blind and running the blind behind gun#2 and out into the field and then the blind to the right of #2. You could even move the line to the right if you wanted more room

The blind down the middle has running water at the end. A disadvantage to hard moving dogs hearing a whistle. At the blind the dog is facing water but is not to get in it.IMHO an anti-training test and blinds are suppose to test training. If you move the blind over to the left at the corner of that piece of water you will get plenty if not more answers.

#2 thrown in the water. Memory birds in the water can move, sink and are a problem if you get a no bird or have to pick up the bird for any reason. Why not just throw it along that shore?

JMO

Tim


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Thanks Tim, all of those are great critiques.... as mentioned above..the blinds are simply ideas for blind placement...I would be more likely to run just one of them after the dog picked up the marks... I can see your point about the blind close to the water's edge...I guess I just don't have enough re-entry type places to train so that kind of thing doesn't register right away. 

Juli

to edit, I guess I didn't really clarify the blinds would be before or after the marks were picked up...not very well, anyway. LOL
oh, and I did not realize that was running water....


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I would run the order as follows:
#3,1,2.

Big splasy breaking Go bird.

Wipes memory of the remaing marks.

My dog picks up outside, outside. Dogs that cheat water will be in for a big hunt, delaying retrieve of the center bird last!!

I like the left hand blind.

Remember this is HT distances. Dogs running through lunge water should still be able to hear whistle.

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

P.S.

Blind is NOT hot!

and is run last!


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

PS,,PS

Is the center blind realistic to a HUNTING senario??
Absolutly!!! IMHO


Might be "Contrary" to training techniques,, but to test a HUNTING retriever to a standard ~~~~ Well I like it!


If Ya wanted to "Shoot" the marks in a more realistic HUNTING senario,,
I think the order would be 2,1,3


Gooser


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is another piece of land for you guys


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> PS,,PS
> 
> Is the center blind realistic to a HUNTING senario??
> Absolutly!!! IMHO
> ...


Would moving the center blind to the left at the corner of that piece of water be "Contrary" to HUNTING?

Just trying to fulfill the standard and be fair to everybody!

Tim

PS I agree, short bird should be first in HTs


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> IMHO an anti-training test


Are we testing training or a HUNTING STANDARD???

Leave the blind alone. As a Judge,, Judge the dog to the written STANDARD that you are judging. Pass or Fail!!

Gooser


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Juli H said:


> thoughts on this setup?


When I looked at this in a photo viewer it looks pretty small. You can easily make out the grass blades on the back bank! My guess is that your longest mark/blind is maybe 60 yds. And your short mark is about 20 yds. And this whole test is going to be very tight. Based on this, I'd try to make more use of the distant water. I think I'd put the flyer station where you have your #3 station but angle it back towards the bush/tree in the center of the frame. Second bird would be from out of the right side behind the bushy tree barely visable and land to the left of where your right blind is. Move the right blind back and more to the right so that you are under the arc of the second bird, just left and deep of the bush where you have your #1 gun station, up the mound there a bit so the dog must handle and be kept to the left of the tree or you lose him to the right. Then I'd move your gun station #2 back until you can drop that bird into the right corner of the left arm of the water in the background. And then move the left blind down the left shore of that left arm of water. Maybe having that #2 bird as a diversion. So it would be long middle bird first, right bird second, run the right blind, diversion bird goes down as the dog returns with the blind, pick up the diversion and 2 marks and then run the second blind. 

T. Mac


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

The left blind (Juli H.) is about 125 yards. The view from the *huge* mound is deceiving. Here's another photo from late May, 2006.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Juli I love the marks and think little could be done to improve there placement. I would run them around the horn 1, 3 and 2 last. I would move the blinds to the locations of the blue dots. Neither blind would be placed until the marks were picked up. This assumes wind at your back or a left to right wind.










With our new information about distances the left hand blind would be slightly shorter and the reentry concern avoided. 

I moved the right hand blind for the following reasons. 
1: I despise bank running and train hard to avoid it. By placing the blind close to the far corner of water the land is scented and a dog running the bank is going to run into the scented area. Most will be handled and some will be eliminated. Others will not want to return to a scented area where there was not a duck when it comes time to run the blind. 
2: The swim is very short so you are making efficient use of time.

All of this is opinion and does not have a right or wrong. Some opinions count more than mine as I am not a judge. Regardless of the order of the marks or the placement of the blinds it is nice Master level test and should provide some answers. It would also be a lot of fun to run.

Thanks for starting the thread!!
Mark Land


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

How's this???

Question:

Would it be harder to run the order B1,B3, B2 as the go bird?


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> How's this???
> 
> Question:
> 
> Would it be harder to run the order B1,B3, B2 as the go bird?


For my dogs the key bird is going to be B1. The down the shore inline is a fairly difficult concept for them. The most difficult order would be B1 as a go bird. An out of order inline gives my dogs fits. If they hunt short and pick up B2 first you will have few dogs that will push past the area of B2 to pick up B1.
Mark L.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Julie, thank you so much for starting this thread Sorry I am so behind everyone, but by the time I get all my lines drawn correctly (not to mention figuring out how I want to set the test up); we are on to the next one. 

Sorry MooseGooser; don't mean to ignore your post of the new marks (can't wait to study them); but want to get this up before I have to leave for the day:sad

Critique away; I have a thick skin. My order of throw, would be Left mark down the center (long mark) 1st; 2nd far right mark (mid range mark)2nd; and wipe out bird 3rd. I would pick them up #3, #2, #1. However, if my dog showed me that she absolutely wanted that long bird next, I would let her have it. Note: I tried to show that long mark being thrown with an angle back thow so that the dog would have to go by the gunner...


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

They look like great training marks where you would be able to teach and correct, but I wouldn't want to use them in a test. First, on the far right hand, will the dog be at any disadvantage by just running around the corner and getting the bird? How will the dog that goes straight through show better marking and ability than the one that doesn't? Is there enough of a cheat to fail the dog? What bad habit have you re-enforced? Second, the middle far bird is where the dog wants to go. He is going to get out of the water as soon as he can, and then he isn't going to want to jump back into the big water, so where is the first place he is going to hunt?

Blind: Okay placement, but I only see one other place where the dog would want to go(that little island), and if he went there, he would still be able to get himself out of trouble fairly easily by jumping onto land. I would rather the blind be put to the left of the left gun station, very tight to that little tree or even to the left of it a tad. See attached pic. That way it would be going right over that wipe-out bird(I do like that idea or as a diversion)

EDIT: LOL, I just seen that Julie H had her blind in the exact same place. Hadn't even noticed where she put hers


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> They look like great training marks where you would be able to teach and correct, but I wouldn't want to use them in a test. First, on the far right hand, will the dog be at any disadvantage by just running around the corner and getting the bird? How will the dog that goes straight through show better marking and ability than the one that doesn't? Is there enough of a cheat to fail the dog? What bad habit have you re-enforced? Second, the middle far bird is where the dog wants to go. He is going to get out of the water as soon as he can, and then he isn't going to want to jump back into the big water, so where is the first place he is going to hunt?
> 
> Blind: Okay placement, but I only see one other place where the dog would want to go(that little island), and if he went there, he would still be able to get himself out of trouble fairly easily by jumping onto land. I would rather the blind be put to the left of the left gun station, very tight to that little tree or even to the left of it a tad. See attached pic. That way it would be going right over that wipe-out bird(I do like that idea or as a diversion)
> 
> EDIT: LOL, I just seen that Julie H had her blind in the exact same place. Hadn't even noticed where she put hers


Great comments...hate that I am in such a hurry and my husband is honking the horn in the driveway; but real quick...I do like the placement of the blind where both you and Juli are suggesting but I am not crazy about the open water behind it; so that was my consideration there; also, guess I was also thinking to make the blind a no brainer since the wipe out bird might rattle a young Master dog and I wanted some success on the test and you are correct, when I was thinking of them, I was thinking more from a training aspect. Also far right mark would tend to entice a young MH to run around...great opportunity to correct....gotta go, look forward to seeing more stuff on MH marks when I get home
________
Colorado Medical Marijuana Dispensary


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Gooser,

I like your set up except I would be tempted to put the birds where the dog doesn't want to go. 
B1 and 2 throw left to right. B2 the throw so it lands on the backside of the island near the left point. If they bail out of water early, they have problems. B1 land it right at the top of the B on your drawing. Dogs that go left past the island will see a channel picture and those that go over the island and bail out early will be lost up on the land.
B3 tuck it closer to the little tree. What will the dogs see when they get out? A big wide open fairway. They will have to stay honest and tight to the little tree. On this tight a scenario I would not use a flyer. 
The blind I see is over the left edge of the middle island and straight at that big tree deep and in the middle of the photo. But the bird is placed at the right edge of that little pot of water just past the center island. If they want to stay wet and go left they will have to handle to the bird.
If they opt for the island they will probably want the land and still have to be handled to the bird.

Sorry guys, I still can't get my files size small enough.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> Here is another piece of land for you guys


Interesting....

What's that white stuff?

Trying to help out in the worst way regards

Bubba


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> How's this???
> 
> Question:
> 
> Would it be harder to run the order B1,B3, B2 as the go bird?


I don't think order effects this test. The bird placement will take care of it all. I would move the B2 gun station to throw the bird down the shore to the same spot. IMHO this would open up the shoreline to the bird in the corner.
As your co-judge I would lobby to move the line to running your blind more to the right to utilize the shoreline more on the initial line.

Tim


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

This terrain provided an interesting reminder. A few years ago, we were running a setup in which each dog ran this blind after picking up three singles (nothing out of the ordinary). Brian M. had his "truck load" and there were about four other trainers along for the day. I was out on the levee throwing a mark and planting the blind (after the marks).

The blind "holding blind" is indicated by the orange arrow. The first two dogs "lost it" on their blinds near the red arrow. They were titled and very experiencenced. When the third dog came out and did the same thing (not taking a cast or taking the wrong cast and basically looking very "ugly), Brian got on the radio and asked, "Can you see me?" The answer was, "Perfectly!" Even though he was on a high mound the dark tree line made his white coat very visible. 

Next dog comes out.....same thing. So I called on the radio and said I'd check this out more closely. I walked out of the holding blind (which was up on top of the levee), over to the line of the blind, down to the corner of the penisula and crouched down. There was a one tree gap in the background. Brian and his white coat completely disappeared in the white clouds behind the "gap". From the holding blind, the gap was not an issue (different angle, didn't exist).....but I wasn't the one taking casts. 

Everyone switched to dark clothing and "suddenly" the next dogs were fine. The tree line looked OK from up on the mound, too, but the dogs were looking back at a very different angle. They couldn't see the handlers in white. Somewhere, I have a picture with the caption..."Where's Waldo?"


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

what about this???

run blind up the middle 1st
then live flyer 1st as memory...# 2 across the small pond and the go bird right in front....
finish up with a long blind passed the BB station....


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Juli H said:


> thoughts on this setup?


 
Which way is the wind from in this set-up? 
What are you hoping to accomplish with Mark #2?

If wind was left to right - I would swing Mark #2 back a bit so that it lands in the veg (and on the line to the blind). That way it is less of a gimme sitting in open water and also adds some suction on the blind.

I would also make other changes but will refrain from trying to describe in words (would be easier to modify the picture).

Nice piece of water. I would give serious thought to how one would hunt this and where birds would fly in from before designing the test.

Travis


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I like the lines of the two blinds. However, the one on the left is at least 175 yards. I would shorten it up. The one on the right will loose sight of the dog after crossing the L of the penisula. It might be better to move the starting line over to the right a bit which creates a parallel swim and skirts the point of the L. Suction to get on the point or turn left after passing the point could prove challenging, but the dog would be visible (if on line). 

Secondly the two marks on the left seem to be thrown "flower pot". I would have two different gun stations. The lengths of the throws asked for in the drawing are not to scale. They'd have to have a canon to throw that far......even a winger wouldn't make it. 

The flyer station is at least 60 yards from the "arrowed", small tree and a fall behind it would be extremely difficult plus being very long for a flyer. Where could you move it to?

Add to that the fact (which I think most have forgotten) there is a diagonal, levee on the far end of the pond with a channel behind it. I've drawn a blue line to indicate where it is. As was mentioned in the orginal drawing, the channel is about 10+ yards wide and the dog is out of sight after charging over the levee.


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

MooseGooser said:


> How's this???
> 
> Question:
> 
> Would it be harder to run the order B1,B3, B2 as the go bird?


I don't think you'd get a lot out of that blind. Not much for factors - at least for a Master test.

Mark #3 would be greatly more difficult if thrown left to right (to the same area of fall as shown in pic). Much more inclination to cheat the shore when thrown that direction.

Travis


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

KwickLabs said:


> I like the lines of the two blinds. However, the one on the left is at least 175 yards. I would shorten it up. The one on the right will loose sight of the dog after crossing the L of the penisula. It might be better to move the starting line over to the right a bit which creates a parallel swim and skirts the point of the L. Suction to get on the point or turn left after passing the point could prove challenging, but the dog would be visible (if on line).
> 
> Secondly the two marks on the left seem to be thrown "flower pot". I would have two different gun stations. The lengths of the throws asked for in the drawing are not to scale. They'd have to have a canon to throw that far......even a winger wouldn't make it.
> 
> ...


was not sure of the scale I was thinking it was more like 80 to 100 yds. from the line to the end of the pond. the distance for the marks would flyer (120yds) #2 ( 90 to 100 yds) go bird ( 50 yds ) Blinds #1 would be 115 yds and blind #2 about 85 to 90 yds.. that's how I interpreted the photo distance wise..


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

KwickLabs said:


> what is the intention of the go bird here - being so close and angled toward the line? to give the dog an easy short reward and see if it hunts short on the memory birds?


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

david gibson said:


> KwickLabs said:
> 
> 
> > what is the intention of the go bird here - being so close and angled toward the line? to give the dog an easy short reward and see if it hunts short on the memory birds?
> ...


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

In a master test should every mark be difficult? I would hope not....the idea is not to put up an impossibly difficult test, but one that tests for quality marking abilities of a 'hunting dog'....

Juli


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## stonybrook (Nov 18, 2005)

Juli H said:


> In a master test should every mark be difficult? I would hope not....the idea is not to put up an impossibly difficult test, but one that tests for quality marking abilities of a 'hunting dog'....
> 
> Juli


 
Agreed Julie. The whole should be equal to the sum of it's parts.
However, a memory bird left laying in wide open view doesn't really test a whole lot. That's all I was sayin'.

One thing I haven't seen offered up here is any scenario given on how any of these areas pictured would be hunted and explained to the contestants.

Also, decoy placement could be valuable (and realstic if they fit with the hunting scenario).

Travis


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

wackemnstackem said:


> what about this???
> 
> run blind up the middle 1st
> then live flyer 1st as memory...# 2 across the small pond and the go bird right in front....
> finish up with a long blind passed the BB station....


1. I love these threads.
2. I have yet to run a Master test.

The Flyer here looks unfair. Since a flyer cannot be controlled would it not be better to use it as a breaking bird. Instead of a cheating mark that will be differant for each dog (to some degree)??

Steve


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

I have a thing about down the shore marks and want to see the dog swim by the gunner to get the bird. So I would reverse the direction of the throws as previously shown on this mark. Plus I would move the line over to the far left quite a bit to tighten up the angle. I like the blind under the arc of the throw to add a bit more challenge to this blind. If I were testing, and/or if I were judging (which I am not) I would myself be sure to challenge the blind(or if judging) tell the handlers that I would want to see the dog challenge that blind.

Order of throw: 1 - Far left hand mark; 2 - shorter left hand mark; 3 ? right hand mark. I would pick them up 3, 2, 1
________
Norseman


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> The AKC hunt test folks I train with around here, in CT, set up a lot of breaking birds, right up close to the line. Same with the master level tests I worked at last year. I don't see that in any of the test diagrams here. Is this for a different venue?
> Walt


This is the same venue. Distance is tough to judge from a picture. The # 2 mark in Juli's setup is probably 30 or 40 yards with a big splash. She caught some flack about it but I thought it was a good control bird/breaking bird. My opinion is it would have to be the go bird to avoid wind drift but does a good job of testing steadiness. No need for a splash in the face to test steadiness. Just watch them sluice birds at a field trial if you need proof.
Respectfully
Mark L.

P. S. Reed Creek I like your down the shore marks as they are set up the way I normally throw them.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

David, didn't you find posted photos seemed to compress distance? Having trained on this pond, I know the size.....and some of the estimates are really off.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

KwickLabs said:


> David, didn't you find posted photos seemed to compress distance? Having trained on this pond, I know the size.....and some of the estimates are really off.


 
I was guessing the breaking bird to be about 20-25 yds, if that.....

Juli


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

KwickLabs said:


> David, didn't you find posted photos seemed to compress distance? Having trained on this pond, I know the size.....and some of the estimates are really off.


big time, see the other thread where a guy swore my blinds were 150 yds MAX but in fact were a good 220. focal length of lens is a big distortion. on some shots it looks like i was way late for a whistle, but when measured he was only 3 feet offline at 100 yds, most of us will take that.. ;-). as far as that close mark, i have yet to run a master test. i dont mind a test steering away from trickery and setting up for failure, but i wouldnt expect a "gimme". that would far easier than any junior mark i have ever seen.

now make it #1 and its a breaking test, personally i dont mind those but many people do. and then you also have to worry about drift if there is any wind.

otherwise, i like the other marks. at this level i dont want birds falling in open water unless the dog has had to navigate a few factors successfully in order to get to a position to see the bird in open water - kinda like if you cross this island and point like you have been trained - lo and behold you get a reward! the work is in _getting there_, not hunting when you get there.

as far as the blind, i would like to see it at that far tree in the center in the next body of water. why? #1, doubtful it will be lined since there is a levee and canal before the next open water. so, you have to have your dog well online when he/she gets to the levee, and your dog better be good at casting off that into another water body and carrying that line well enough to be on track by the time it reappears. i kinda like that, knowing you have to have a good cast and having to wait until your dog swims out a bit before you can resume handling. sure its tough, but the title "Master" means just that. if you cast and the dog pops up 50 yds down the levee....well, not master work.

and then again, i_ have never run a master test and am totally green about these thought processes and i may be way off base._ but if i had that set up here i would train and run that blind.

but thats whats great about these threads the past week or so, learning a lot! 3 weeks and counting till our first Master test....


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Here is another technical pond for you - how would you set it up? I have it fixed so you can work with the one, have put it the way I would work with it. Third series though, lot of swimming water, wouldn't have time for a big crowd.(;


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Here is another technical pond for you - how would you set it up? I have it fixed so you can work with the one, have put it the way I would work with it. Third series though, lot of swimming water, wouldn't have time for a big crowd.(;



can you post the Google or bing aerial??


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

golden dude said:


> 1. I love these threads.
> 2. I have yet to run a Master test.
> 
> *The Flyer here looks unfair. Since a flyer cannot be controlled *would it not be better to use it as a breaking bird. Instead of a cheating mark that will be differant for each dog (to some degree)??
> ...




why would you say that Steve? 
that's why I have the flyer going that direction. you can control a flyer to some extent.

this is a great thread really learning alot..thanks everyone....


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

I agree with Juli 100% that not every mark should be "difficult", but I set mine up as full-blown master tests - triple with double blind. Just to try to "max out" what's available...

In the first tests, birds are thrown in order shown. I would really prefer to take that nice heavy strip of cover at a stronger angle -- as this line makes it pretty squared up. I would also be interested in using the taller cover for something if the dog is visible once it's through, but that pic doesn't give us that opportunity. (which is fine, we'd have too many pics if we covered every angle!)










Dog has to make a choice en route to first mark as he winds short bird en route to go bird.

Short, indented bird is thrown up against haybale - a place dogs don't particularly like to stop. Mark might be tricky if dogs pass left and/or go deep with influence from the long out of order flyer.

Each blind is under an arc, but tight up against a bale en route. This is the main place I'd like to be able to take a more acute angle through the cover as this looks like cover dogs are more likely to try to square.

Water Test:










To me, this is a great place for a wiper bird. I don't think there's any room for a safe flyer. You're either shooting at another gunner or probably towards the gallery/parking.

Marks are set up so that cheating won't help... Dogs that try to cheat right on G1 would "hopefully" at least get hung up in the blind first so that you could just their marking. Dogs that cheat left could get pick up the G2 bird or at least be affected by the scent from it and the blind on that shore. The G2 bird is to set up the blind. I don't think there's a way to create TOO many challenging marks without making everything really tight and I feel like that would be unfair on this type of water. It looks kind of golf-course'y, there aren't a lot of barriers/terrain type things like bushes and trees to make pictures. Just kind of a wide open space...

Both blinds are influenced by the wind, water and old falls. I would change the line for the 2nd blind because I feel it's more challenging to ask them to shave back into the water with the way the shoreline fades away as opposed to being well-defined (like a true point).

-K


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

wackemnstackem said:


> why would you say that Steve?
> that's why I have the flyer going that direction. you can control a flyer to some extent.
> 
> this is a great thread really learning alot..thanks everyone....


You're probably shooting at the gallery.  Flyers can go in any direction and are very rarely thrown when you have a really key place that you want a bird to fall. This type of pond begs for accurate falls -- as far as being useful in judging the dogs. I don't see much room for a flyer here, except maybe as the wiper bird, but then you have to worry about other gunners...

-K


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

david gibson said:


> can you post the Google or bing aerial??


Hang on, let me see what I can bring up for you........

Okay, here's what we have. Go to this homepage, http://www.grassycreekkennel.com/index.htm, and watch the slideshow of training grounds. It is the pond right behind his house, we are working on the end of the long fingered channel. NOTE: In the pics, it is longer than it looks. They were taken when it was first dug, but it has since grown in some. 

Have fun!


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I would change the line for the 2nd blind because I feel it's more challenging to ask them to shave back into the water with the way the shoreline fades away as opposed to being well-defined (like a true point).
> 
> -K


Technical question:

If you run two blinds from 2 different lines: Does it still satisfy the double blind requirement?

tim


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

Tim Carrion said:


> Technical question:
> 
> If you run two blinds from 2 different lines: Does it still satisfy the double blind requirement?
> 
> tim


I've run a good number of tests that did it, but as far as an official ruling, I have no idea... We had one test that I joked was a dance recital because, if I remember correctly... Went to the line, watched the marks fall. LEFT them, moved and ran a blind. Went back to the marks, then moved again for another blind if I recall. And then I think to honor. It was 3-5 moves and it was very confusing if you weren't paying attention...

-K


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Diversion bird throw into the water as the dog is on it's way back from the go bird


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

wackemnstackem said:


> Diversion bird throw into the water as the dog is on it's way back from the go bird


While I don't like cold blinds, I think your test is a great place for one because dog will have already banked once as he's en route to your memory bird.

The only thing I don't like is that the gobird has them running down the side of the pond and stopping short of entering the far water. I'd just move it in and more out into the field. Then you can do the same diversion throw, it would just be flatter.

-K


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Kristie Wilder said:


> *While I don't like cold blinds,* I think your test is a great place for one because dog will have already banked once as he's en route to your memory bird.
> 
> The only thing I don't like is that the gobird has them running down the side of the pond and stopping short of entering the far water. I'd just move it in and more out into the field. Then you can do the same diversion throw, it would just be flatter.
> 
> -K


not following you


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

wackemnstackem said:


> not following you


A cold blind (at a HUNT TEST) is a blind run before the marks. Does it make sense now?


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

> The only thing I don't like is that the gobird has them running down the side of the pond and stopping short of entering the far water. I'd just move it in and more out into the field. Then you can do the same diversion throw, it would just be flatter.


I agree with Kristie on this...dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...
________
M13aa engine


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

wackemnstackem said:


> Diversion bird throw into the water as the dog is on it's way back from the go bird



Add a land blind off to the left of the go bird and an honor( not many will break after 6 retrieves involving 4 swims). Much of the standard will be met with 1 trip to the line.

Tim


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

ReedCreek said:


> I agree with Kristie on this...dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...


that is one clear thing i have learned the past week with these threads....


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Kristie Wilder said:


> A cold blind (at a HUNT TEST) is a blind run before the marks. Does it make sense now?



yes...my thought would be to run the blind after the marks..sorry I wasn't more specific


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

ReedCreek said:


> I agree with Kristie on this...*dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Master test should include a land & water series...
> I dis-agree with that statement all togeather.IMHO the dog should take the best line to the fall area not if they "see water get into the water" mentality. If the line is land take the land if the line is land,water,land then take that line. don't just get wet because you see water...just my .02


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

wackemnstackem said:


> ReedCreek said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Kristie on this...*dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> ReedCreek said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Kristie on this...*dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

fishduck said:


> wackemnstackem said:
> 
> 
> > In theory I agree that a Master level dog should be able to pick up a duck where it falls. But sometimes this puts the well trained dogs at a disatvantage. Most dogs are trained to get in the water when they see it. No way do I want to award the bank runners and the dogs that don't want to get back in the water. In this situation the dogs training works against the bird placement.
> ...


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)




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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> ReedCreek said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Kristie on this...*dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

david gibson said:


> wackemnstackem said:
> 
> 
> > maybe refined to "see water in the path i am headed, get in water"
> ...


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

wackemnstackem said:


> ReedCreek said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Kristie on this...*dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

wackemnstackem said:


> yes...my thought would be to run the blind after the marks..sorry I wasn't more specific


I'm sorry I'm not being clear. I wasn't commenting on how YOU set up the test, I was simply saying how **I** would run it. I would run the blind first as a cold blind given the scenario you presented. In general, I do NOT like cold blinds (blinds run before marks in a test). BUT in your scenario, if you ran that blind first, the dog would have banked on that shore once. THEN, on the marks, you're asking him to swim down the shore, which would test his perserverance, marking and trainability. Because he's already banked there once, on the blind, there's a chance he would be tempted to bank there again or maybe just past it, but possibly not swim all the way to the mark, which appears to be past a channel that goes off to the right.

-K


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

wackemnstackem said:


> david gibson said:
> 
> 
> > (snip) I'm really learning alot from this thread...thank you... my goal is to become a master judge in the next year or so and this feedback is greatly appreciated.
> ...


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

> If you are just setting marks up with the idea that "dogs should go straight" -- it's too superficial. Yes, dogs should "go straight" BUT, even more importantly, they should NAVIGATE THE FACTORS en route to a mark.


IMO, Bingo!
________
Glass Pipe Pictures


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

Could an experienced Master handler or judge incorperate into some of these "test photo's" what they consider a reasonable fairway to the blinds?

These photo's would be a great way to help newer handlers SEE what would be considered reasonable work.
Thanks
Steve


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

fishduck said:


> Here is a pic of a field I often use for hunt test set ups.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I find it interesting that almost every test drawn on this diagram involved tight converging birds and an in inline of some sort. Tight fall areas, then expect the dogs to run a double blind right over the top of 3 marks. Makes me wonder if some aren't confusing testing training vs marking.....

/Paul


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

golden dude said:


> Could an experienced Master handler or judge incorperate into some of these "test photo's" what they consider a reasonable fairway to the blinds?
> 
> These photo's would be a great way to help newer handlers SEE what would be considered reasonable work.
> Thanks
> Steve


I don't think you can look at a fairway per se as much as you're looking for a dog's response to a handler's cast. You can have a dog that may stay in the fairway, but scallops all the way to a blind -- with multiple cast refusals....

In my land blind examples, for instance -- if the dog were to refuse a cast and end up on the other side of one of the haybales, it may be a hard recovery -- or a quick one, with a good dog.

For me, when I judge, I want to see the dog respond to the handler and get back on track asap even if it gets to the edge of the fairway for whatever reason.

If a dog runs a blind and gets outside the fairway, but comes back with a single really great cast, should that dog be dropped? OR a dog stays in the fairway, but has lots of whistles and scallops... Which one, if either, is a better blind? Or do they both get dropped? It's just a "per dog" evaluation and while the fairway DOES come into play, it's handling within it that's more important, I think.

-K


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

golden dude said:


> Could an experienced Master handler or judge incorperate into some of these "test photo's" what they consider a reasonable fairway to the blinds?
> 
> These photo's would be a great way to help newer handlers SEE what would be considered reasonable work.
> Thanks
> Steve





> Originally Posted by Kristie Wilder
> 
> I've run master test for 14 years,


guess you don't qualify Kristie.....


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I find it interesting that almost every test drawn on this diagram involved tight converging birds and an in inline of some sort. Tight fall areas, then expect the dogs to run a double blind right over the top of 3 marks. Makes me wonder if some aren't confusing testing training vs marking.....
> 
> /Paul


I don't think that it matters what scent and fall areas are en route to any blind, provided the marks have been picked up. But I don't like when birds are all thrown "in a pile" for marks, that's for sure.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I don't think that it matters what scent and fall areas are en route to any blind, provided the marks have been picked up. But I don't like when birds are all thrown "in a pile" for marks, that's for sure.


Ya but look at the blinds people have picked. No real factors other than the old falls. How many judges out there are going to ding the dog for slowing down or dropping its nose as it navigates over the old fall? Worse yet, if a dog tucks behind a bail, is the dog not out of sight and thus out of control risking being dropped? 

/Paul


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ya but look at the blinds people have picked. No real factors other than the old falls. How many judges out there are going to ding the dog for slowing down or dropping its nose as it navigates over the old fall? Worse yet, if a dog tucks behind a bail, is the dog not out of sight and thus out of control risking being dropped?
> 
> /Paul


If a judge drops a dog for being out of sight behind a haybale, they're a dope... That's the point of the haybale -- IF the dog gets behind it, can the handler recover him and/or will the dog recover or pop out the other side, have difficulty handling back, etc.? 

I do think some of the blinds presented are "too" straightforward. But not every blind can or should have a ton of meat in it either. Really, how often is a [hunt test] land blind a total disaster unless you have some really rough factors to work with?

-K


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> Makes me wonder if some aren't confusing testing training vs marking.....


I absolutly believe this is what is happening.

Remember,, MARKING is of PRIMARY importance.

I think many want to TEST TRAINING concepts,and forget what the written STANDARD of what ever level or venue they are Judging.

Marking is of Primary Importance.

Good controll is required in blinds, disturbing as little cover as possible, in both instances.

While I agree in TRAINING, I would want the dog to understand "SEEK WATER", but in tests, I know for a factI I will be required to run a dog CONTRARY to that training~~~~ Just like hunting~~~ And a Master level dog should be able to handle this. Contrary situations WILL happen!
both in HUNTING and testing. Its inevitable.

In certain situations It would be impossible to put the bird on the far side of a Land, water ,Land ,water senario blind. The distance that that might create would make the Blind/Mark Illegal for distance rules within the venue.
The judges are gonna use the terrain that is available to them, and keep it within the rules as best He/She can.

JMHDAO

Gooser


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I don't think you can look at a fairway per se as much as you're looking for a dog's response to a handler's cast. You can have a dog that may stay in the fairway, but scallops all the way to a blind -- with multiple cast refusals....
> 
> In my land blind examples, for instance -- if the dog were to refuse a cast and end up on the other side of one of the haybales, it may be a hard recovery -- or a quick one, with a good dog.
> 
> ...


I understand a judge is looking at the overall performance of the dog, and not whether it stays within "imaginary boundries"

I guess what I am looking for is input on how far off line would YOU let your dog get, and would like to see simalar performance from those you would be judging (general idea) showing that on these pictures would be helpfull.

Steve


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> I do think some of the blinds presented are "too" straightforward. But not every blind can or should have a ton of meat in it either. Really, how often is a [hunt test] land blind a total disaster unless you have some really rough factors to work with?


 
Kristie,,

But what if the MARKS have the "meat" of the test in that particular series?
Do you think it is also imperative to throw in a Blind that has a ton a factors also?
OR
Would it be better to , in the next series, to have somewhat more Black and White MARKS, and THEN put the "Meat" to the blind?

Just wondering?

Gooser


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Kristie,,
> 
> But what if the MARKS have the "meat" of the test in that particular series?
> Do you think it is also imperative to throw in a Blind that has a ton a factors also?
> ...


That all depends on what you have set up for your other series. There are some places I've run -- not sure if you've ever managed to get to Florida, but tests in Florida are notoriously FLAT with grass about a CM tall...  So you take the meat where you can get it, sometimes all within the one series that maybe in an area with some cover/terrain/etc, but not always.

As far as MY tests here, I just set them up to include everything just for the sake of it, but it's not that I would want every test to be as challenging as it possibly could be with the given area.


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> wackemnstackem said:
> 
> 
> > This is a great discussion and although we've used pics and test setups before, it seems there are more interested parties and a much deeper discusson this time around.
> ...


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

golden dude said:


> I guess what I am looking for is input on how far off line would YOU let your dog get, and would like to see simalar performance from those you would be judging (general idea) showing that on these pictures would be helpfull.
> 
> Steve


 
Ok, here you go! I have made one set for a good dog that clearly passed, but didn't line them. And a "bad" dog that didn't do well, but will still pass (IMO). The good dog only falls prey to the most tempting factors. The bad dog falls prey to all or most of them, but corrects without cast refusals.

If you want to see a "failing" job, just look at the bad dog and anywhere he doesn't change direction when asked, he would be in trouble if he did so repeatedly. For example, not re-entering the water on blind 2 of the water series after being asked three times...

The bad dog would be dinged for perserverance to some degree because he caved at every opportunity, but he should have decent trainability scores because he followed instruction.

Here's *GOOD DOG* LAND BLINDS -- On the left blind, he starts to square the cover, but responds correctly. And then he goes to fade behind the haybale, but also responds correctly. On the right blind, he squares the cover because he's influenced by all the action to the left and the previous blind and then he's influenced by the scent at the far fall.









Same series with *BAD DOG*: Left blind, takes initial line towards flyer, squares cover upon being handled for it, goes to swing around far haybale, has a cast refusal and then gets the blind (the locations of the handles and angles of the lines aren't PERFECT but you get the idea). On the right blind, squares cover influenced by action to left, overcorrects to the right heading towards gun station, then influenced by scent of fall, refuses first cast and then gets blind.









*GOOD DOG* water blinds: on blind one, dogs takes nice IL, but starts to cave to scent from old fall. Recovers easily, gets blind. On 2nd blind, starts to head down 'convenient' shore, easily casts back into water, scents old fall on exit, recovers easily.









*BAD DOG* water blinds: Blind one, squares to far shore where G2 is, overcorrects towards easy exit, overcorrects towards old fall, overcorrects towards easy exit, responds and stays in water to blind (even tho pic doesn't quite look like it). Blind 2 - tries to cheat on entry, overcorrects to avoid point entirely, tries to stay on point once on, overcorrects once back in, scents old fall on exit, corrects to blind.

ANY one of the whistle handles here would be prone to refusal esp on the re-entry off the acute "point" on blind 2 and to stay in the "channel" on blind one. Hope this has helped!


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

PS to Steve -- the "bad dog" blinds illustrate the MAXIMUM give I would allow MY dogs as a HANDLER. The amount of play you can "get away with" is different with every judge, as is the amount of cast refusals that are still passable. It varies by blind, by judge and by the degree of the refusals.

We ran a blind in Alabama once, probably the one of the three hardest HT blinds I've ever run. The wind was whipping, there were white caps on the water of a small pond. And we had to run parallel to shore for maybe 80 yards? But it was basically a toenail blind -- not completely in, but not completely out -- JUST enough to be swimming. And the wind was ridiculously pushing them to shore. It was a bad situation as the weather had changed unexpectedly. The blind became SUPER hard. There were very few, if any, dogs that did a nice job. The judges' decision came to this: as long as dogs made an effort and stayed in the water OR got out and got back in with minimal refusals, they were ok even if it took 25 whistles to get to the blind. It was so ugly... The sad part is there were lots of dogs that, once out, wouldn't get back in, and they were dropped. Lots of angry handlers, but really I think the judges did the best they could with what they had.

-K


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I hope I dont get beat up!!

No such thing as "Good" dog or "Bad" dog

Both dogs took cast given, made progress. 
Both dogs met Standard!
Both dogs PASS and are equal as to the rules and standard.

The only good or bad comes from us!

End of story!!

Gooser


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> I hope I dont get beat up!!
> 
> No such thing as "Good" dog or "Bad" dog
> 
> ...


These are MY good dogs and MY bad dogs... What I would expect MY dogs to do. Just to illustrate the max I would let a dog get away with, which is part of what Steve asked someone to do...

-K


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Gooser calls BOTH YOUR dogs "good dogs"

Different,, but Good!

Gooser


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Gooser calls BOTH YOUR dogs "good dogs"
> 
> Different,, but Good!
> 
> Gooser


Yes, I love them both equally.  I should have added some cast refusals to the bad dog's water blind, but didn't think about it. LOL


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

EXTREMELY helpfull Thank you very much!

The "good dog" is what I am working towards. Just wanted conformation I was on track..

"bad dog" looked like a Senior dog that needed more work on lining and practice dealing with factors. Not really ready for Master test.

Steve


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


>


 
based upon this picture, I'd say the dog was 'ready' for MH, just needs tuning up/refining of his skills...he had no whistle refusals,continued taking casts toward the blind, got on land and then into the water...Was he affected by the various factors? Yes, but he recovered pretty well, overall.....I'd have given him a 'C' for a grade.

Juli


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Juli H said:


> based upon this picture, I'd say the dog was 'ready' for MH, just needs tuning up/refining of his skills...he had no whistle refusals,continued taking casts toward the blind, got on land and then into the water...Was he affected by the various factors? Yes, but he recovered pretty well, overall.....I'd have given him a 'C' for a grade.
> 
> Juli


Food for thought - Are we trying to determine "Pass" or "Fail" or are we reaching beyond that? Actually, I like being able to see both; what could be considered "acceptable" and what is "better". If I were testing I would take it (the "bad dog" performance); but if I were "training" I would not; and naturally, in testing I would hope for the good dog to show up (which might require the "good" handler to show up) had that handler been quicker on that whistle; "bad" dog might have become "good" dog
________
Pain Management Forums


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

ReedCreek said:


> Food for thought - Are we trying to determine "Pass" or "Fail" or are we reaching beyond that? Actually, I like being able to see both; what could be considered "acceptable" and what is "better". If I were testing I would take it (the "bad dog" performance); but if I were "training" I would not; and naturally, in testing I would hope for the good dog to show up (which might require the "good" handler to show up) had that handler been quicker on that whistle; "bad" dog might have become "good" dog


absolutely.... 

Juli


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> If a judge drops a dog for being out of sight behind a haybale, they're a dope... That's the point of the haybale -- IF the dog gets behind it, can the handler recover him and/or will the dog recover or pop out the other side, have difficulty handling back, etc.?
> 
> I do think some of the blinds presented are "too" straightforward. But not every blind can or should have a ton of meat in it either. Really, how often is a [hunt test] land blind a total disaster unless you have some really rough factors to work with?
> 
> -K


If I call them a dope can I be written up for unsportsmanlike conduct? Frankly there are better configurations for this field that don't require throwing them all at each other and would test marking and memory.

/Paul


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

IMHO, both dogs on land are OK in my book as a judge.
However on the water blinds, post 115, These dogs could be in trouble.
Blind 1 a terrible initial line for a master dog. Then the dog never handled any of the factors of the test. I do see some possbile handler error (late whistles) or perhaps the dog did whistle refusals. Pretty much played ping pong the whole way. Blind 2, could only carry the initial line a short distance. Then pretty much fought the handler the whole way. Again it looks like a ping pong match. In neither blind did the dog hanlde the factors.
Nor did it truly work with the handler. It may have turned the right direction, but it pretty much went where it wanted.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I disagree...at least on blind 2. I think the dog worked with the handler to the extent that it took casts toward the blind (generally)....definitely not a 'pretty' blind, but passable.

Juli


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> If I call them a dope can I be written up for unsportsmanlike conduct? Frankly there are better configurations for this field that don't require throwing them all at each other and would test marking and memory.
> 
> /Paul



what would your test look like then???


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

OK. Blind 2. short initial line and then I want out of the water.
I am assuming an angle back from there. Late whistle - Handler error or whistle refusal. Then my cast would be back, maybe angle back. Dog bailed to land. Another late whistle. Dog got back into the water followed by another late whistle. Then a cast the dog made into a "C". Followed by the only cast the dog truly took and carried any distance. If the hanlder had done a better job of challenging the blind it would make it more black and white.

Didn't say the dog failed said it was in trouble. The land blind better show me something if we carried it. If my co judge wanted, I could drop this dog.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

IMHO, its imposibel to Judge a DOGS ability from a diagrm on the internet.
We just assume the dog sat when whistled, and took the cast drawn.

From the DIAGRAM and ONLY the DIAGRAM, and forget the fact they are Kristies dogs.

If that was say Goosers dogs :
And based on the diagram only!:

wouldnt you conclude:
1. poor intitial line.?
2. Late whistles?
3. wrong casts.?

Looking specifically at the first blind.
1. poor initial line. ( Late Whistle)
2. Now what cast??stepped off,right hand angle back. Or was it an over? (Dog took good cast.)
Orrrrr was the cast given a right hand angle back,and the Gooser handler was late with the whistle,not stopping the dog on line??
3. 2nd whistle!!!!Now! What happened?? Dog is sitting just a tad off line,at the mouth of the channel.Seems to me, the correct cast woulda been a Left hand straight back!! Is that the cast the was given, or did Gooser have a brain fart and give a left hand angle back?? Or did Gooser give a left hand straight back, and the dog swam an angle back??
If Gooser gave a left hand angle back,, DOG did EXACTLY what I told it to do!!!(Good dog) If Gooser gave a left hand straight back with a verbal,, and the dog took the cast is shows on the drawing,, then bad dog!! Whistle!!,, and give the correct cast again!! ~~~~ What really happened?? was it the DOG,, or was it the handler??
So,, How can you judge whether the DOG is ready or the handler needs work?? I think you need to witness the blind in person or watch a video from the handlers perspective to really tell.

If Im a Judge at the test, and doing what Im sposed to do, Im not lookng at cast given, rather the progress the dog makes TOWARD the blind.
So from the diagram, the dog took a poor intial line, handller recovered, and made acceptable progress to the blind. Dog passes,, period..

But in training<< In Training,, I would be looking at what cast the handler gave and how the dog took that cast! Then be criticle to either the Handler or the dog!

To different situations.

Kristie being the handler knowing when she blew the whistle, how fast the dog reacted, what cast was given, and what cast the dog took,, Shes says bad dog!!1 I have to taker her word for it cause I wasnt there to really see. 

But from the diagram,, and from a judges perspective,of just watching the dogs PROGRESS,, then the dog passes~~~ Good Dog!

My objective being a Judge on the first blind is to see the handler guide his dog through the Channel to the bird with resonable controll for the level i am judging.

Dog accomplished this!!

My objective to judge the second blind is to see the dog take a straight line, go over a sliver of land, back in the water ,on line. to the bird.
Dog basically acomplished those directives, Handler worked hard to show that controll, and make progress to the bird!! Good Dog!!!


So, On the internet,, Should we be just judging the PROGRESS to the bird as drwn, or... judging the handler and casts when we wernt there to see what really went on??

If you were the Judge and the only information you had was this diagram on your sheet,?????~~~ Thats all we have here guys nothing more nothing less.

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Im talking about WATER blind example in my comments above.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Please score this dog in this series....

marks 3 and 2 picked up clean. had to handle on last mark but handled clean.

1st blind...clean 1 whistle on island took cast..

2nd blind....1st whistle ( red dot) all good..2nd whistle ..back given. dog takes a more right over than a back...3rd whistle...left back given...dog takes a right back.( clearly dog does not want to go back into the water for some reason) 4th whistle....left angle back given..dog takes cast and reaches bird...

this being the 1st series would this dog be asked to run the 2nd series


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I think discussions about SET UPS and what you *MIGHT* expect out of the dogs is helpful.

But a diagram of a dogs work isnt much help, cause I think you really have to personally see it to make judgement.
There are too many things that could be going on when a team is running a blind.
In the water blinds example, if the dog was sitting promptly when the whistle was blown,, How come, Mr Handler, are you so late with it?

If the dog is casually reacting to a well timmed whistle, thus getting itself farther off line,, then another issue. 
We cant discuss this here unless we se a working example>

Gooser


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

Gooser makes a good point.

Myself-I was comparing "good dog-bad dog" to the standard I am TRAINING to.

Steve


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

here's another one that looks like fun.

Juli


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> I think discussions about SET UPS and what you *MIGHT* expect out of the dogs is helpful.
> 
> *But a diagram of a dogs work isnt much help, cause I think you really have to personally see it to make judgement.*
> There are too many things that could be going on when a team is running a blind.
> ...


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

golden dude said:


> Gooser makes a good point.
> 
> Myself-I was comparing "good dog-bad dog" to the standard I am TRAINING to.
> 
> Steve


all this guys does is agree with what other say....lol....


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

As far as the SET UP goes!!

Dont you think that the second blind is a bugger, and is full of factors that is a bit much for a Master dog? with all other things considered??
I think so!

If we think of what has been said in the other threads,, 

Dogs want dirt!!
Gun stations tend to push dogs.
Ted said even with *Qual* dogs he would still want to make Blinds more black and white. I think that second blind is really tough!!! Not very Black and white.
Maybe a big entry and Judges tryin to thin the field??

We are asking the dog to take a sliver of land a second swim and stay on line after we just had to handle (or not) to that G1!! Wow!! Alot goin on there!!
Is this second blind even a good idea??? Or did we already discuss this??

Gooser


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

My original thought is not in a first or second series would I move that far to run the second blind. The first blind has a lot going on at the end. Very difficult. The second blind a very doable master blind. If my dog was in the same spot as the second handle on the second blind, I would not worry about taking the line over the point. I want them to dig back, preferrabley in the water. Do a good from there on and whether or not you got on the point should be moot.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)




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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> As far as the SET UP goes!!
> 
> Dont you think that the second blind is a bugger, and is full of factors that is a bit much for a Master dog? with all other things considered??
> I think so!
> ...


not my set-up...here's is mine...


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Wackem, What do you expect to see with this land set up?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

wackemnstackem said:


> all this guys does is agree with what other say....lol....


 
HAHAHA!!!!!!

You ONLY got 19 posts here Dude!!

Go and search suma Goosers othere posts and just take a look at how I agree!!:razz:

I got marks all over Me from agreeein here!!

Just so we all get WACKAMASTER set straight,, could suma you fill him in how Ya'll just tolerate Gooser?? I'm Kinda like that red headed step child they love,,,, Bless his heart!!!

:razz:

Gooser


Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Wait,, Wait!!!

Now Gooser stay on topic ,,,stay on topic!!!


Gooser


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

brandywinelabs said:


> Wackem, What do you expect to see with this land set up?



the only thing would be dogs hunting short of the memeory bird other than that not much here to challege the dogs...


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

That was my thought too. However, if you threw over the bales keeping your marks tighter to the bales and inviting the dogs to run in the open areas and fairways where the birds aren't. Even use blinds to hide the gunners in the open areas.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Wack!

Where is wind?

What is distance?


Gooser


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

wackemnstackem said:


> what would your test look like then???


 









Bird 1 thrown back towards #2 which is a flyer thrown left to right, #3 is right to left out into the wide open background. First blind under the arch of the fall from #3 and second blind over the old fall and behind the flyer station.

/Paul


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

wackemnstackem said:


>


Where is wind,
what is distance?
Where is flyer?


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

1st series land triple with a walk up. Out of order flyer (1st bird); blinds can be done in any order. F1 and G2 are thrown LtoR; G3 (go bird) RtoL

If I were running it; I would pick up the Go Bird first (G3); get the flyer (F1) and pick up the long bird last (G2); I would then do the left hand blind (because there would be less potential for problems) then the right hand blind. 

Potential problems for my dog: Coming out of the blind, I would heel her on the left, step up a bit after the flyer is down, to get her to focus on the long bird and get a good look at it (G2); that will be a tough bird to keep her focused on. Don't think she will have trouble with the Go Bird (G3); however, if she overruns it she could be behind that hill. Anticipate trouble with the right hand blind because of the old flyer fall...be quick with that whistle!
________
Bmw Vi History


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> david gibson said:
> 
> 
> > again I'm not following your thought process...the line to the bird is just that the line to the birds.. the shortest distance between two points is a straight line...correct....... and that's how we teach our dogs to run...a straight-line. so it should not matter what is to the left,right or behind the dog. the goal is to run a true straight -line.......and at this level these dog should be able to perform this tast.IMHO.. I'm really learning alot from this thread...thank you... my goal is to become a master judge in the next year or so and this feedback is greatly appreciated.
> ...


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> Please score this dog in this series....
> 
> marks 3 and 2 picked up clean. had to handle on last mark but handled clean.
> 
> ...


based on feedback i got when posting pics of my dog running blinds, this dog may not called back based on the blind work. depends on how the judges graded, are the blinds judged separately or as a whole? the scores on the first blind could easily counteract and give an overall good score on blind work. but then again, i have yet to run a master test much less grade one...


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> Wack!
> 
> Where is wind?
> 
> ...


the wind would be over my left shoulder...going away....

not my photo but I would make them 120' memory,80' 2nd,100' go bird,diversion would be 50' and about 100' blind


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> the wind would be over my left shoulder...going away....
> 
> not my photo but I would make them 120' memory,80' 2nd,100' go bird,diversion would be 50' and about 100' blind



i am assuming you mean yards here - a single "tick" signifies feet.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

go bird would be the flyer


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

david gibson said:


> i am assuming you mean yards here - a single "tick" signifies feet.



yes....


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

Looks pretty upland-y, so I'd do a walkup here... I'd like to see the cover that's at the top of the hill better, but tried to work with it anyway. I don't have any exciting explanation for this one; I guess just a pretty straight up triple where they have to punch the piece of cover tight to the tree on the memory bird. The cover's so far away, though -- I had originall had a blind there (you can see my coverups). So if dog avoids cover on mark, he should still get mark without a problem. That's the only thing I don't "like" about it; I'd have to see a setup dog run...

-K


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

_







_

_Wack!_

_Based on your wind,, and distance,,_
_I feel the test is pretty easy for a Master dog. Well defined marks, Blind straight down wind pointed to the only feature in the field on that line. Only issue, driving past old fall!_


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the wind's at your back and that memory bird goes over more towards the tree and maybe behind the cover, it would be an even nicer. I think it's nice as it already is, also. The terrain and cover would seem to push the dogs left as they approach that mark and go up the happy slot between the haybale and the cover...


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

How bout this??












Wind right to left, 10MPH


Thrown B1, B2 (out of order flyer) B3. 

Hip pocket marks , but have to pull dog off flyer to get the dog to see go bird. Test memory for long bird.

Run blind.

Gooser


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> How bout this??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had the same exact set-up, except the blind...I was going to have the line moved left and run to the left of the bale then to the spot you ended at.  LOL!


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> How bout this??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There will be a lot of grumbling after you run the test dog. Very concept oriented test in a field without a lot of cover. A very good test IMHO.
Mark L.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

When I set up marks, I try to:
1) Identify features that make it difficult for dog to run straight to bird

*And *(I think this is the most important part)

2) Give the dog attractive alternatives to explore

Just copied this from the other thread. Teds recomendation!

How do you do this in this field!!

I kinda like Wacks example now!:shock:
(gooser dern it!! Stop agreein with folk!):razz:

I threw in a concept, and a outa order flyer to make up for the plain field!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

> There will be a lot of grumbling after you run the test dog.


 
Tryin to be more assertive and not just go round agreein with the world!!
ATTICA ATTICA!!!!
Just call me Rebel!!

Gooser


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

wackemnstackem said:


>



Running marks uphill against a sky background: Any bets on how many overrun?


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

ReedCreek said:


> 1st series land triple with a walk up. Out of order flyer (1st bird); blinds can be done in any order. F1 and G2 are thrown LtoR; G3 (go bird) RtoL
> 
> If I were running it; I would pick up the Go Bird first (G3); get the flyer (F1) and pick up the long bird last (G2); I would then do the left hand blind (because there would be less potential for problems) then the right hand blind.
> 
> Potential problems for my dog: Coming out of the blind, I would heel her on the left, step up a bit after the flyer is down, to get her to focus on the long bird and get a good look at it (G2); that will be a tough bird to keep her focused on. Don't think she will have trouble with the Go Bird (G3); however, if she overruns it she could be behind that hill. Anticipate trouble with the right hand blind because of the old flyer fall...be quick with that whistle!


Okay guys, I will try again; any thoughts???
________
Mary Jane


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

MooseGooser said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well Gooser I have two things working against me here....MH test needs to keep marks around 100' to 125' by rule. and i want to use the hay to hide the BB


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

how about this one????


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

What's with you guys and the hay bales;-)...a gun does not have to be behind every hay bale; the bales can be used in alternative ways
________
OPIUM REHAB ADVICE


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

So what good are hay bales other than to hide your gunners/BB....... the dogs can't see nor run thru them.. so what other purpose do they serve..you tell me..


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

wackemnstackem said:


> So what good are hay bales other than to hide your gunners/BB....... the dogs can't see nor run thru them.. so what other purpose do they serve..you tell me..


Well now, you could put your water bottle on them; or you could set your jacket on them when it starts to get warm; or you could talk on your cell phone and no one can see you.....or...nah...couldn't be this...you could use them as diversions for your test...nah....
________
Vaporizer questions


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

ReedCreek said:


> Well now, you could put your water bottle on them; or you could set your jacket on them when it starts to get warm; or you could talk on your cell phone and no one can see you.....or...nah...couldn't be this...you could use them as diversions for your test...nah....


I'm here for one reason and one reason only to learn...show me what you got...:


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

wackemnstackem said:


> So what good are hay bales other than to hide your gunners/BB....... the dogs can't see nor run thru them.. so what other purpose do they serve..you tell me..


haybales are just like any other feature in a field or pond; they can cause suction or flaring depending on how marks and blinds are set up around them.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

> I'm here for one reason and one reason only to learn...show me what you got...:


Look at the set up I posted (picture is kinda small) with the Walk Out or Kristie's set up...you will see that the gunner is not placed behind the hay bale...hay bale is used as another factor, but not as a holding blind..... I don't say they can't be used; I would fight the temptation to see a bale and place a gunner behind it if it does not fit into what I am trying to achieve...
________
O405


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> So what good are hay bales other than to hide your gunners/BB....... the dogs can't see nor run thru them.. so what other purpose do they serve..you tell me..


As Kristie mentioned hay bales are like any other feature and can create slots and can cause suction and flare. I train in hay bales a lot because the fields get baled every month and the bales will stay in the field a week. One thing about hay bales and any other solid piece of cover is that dogs hate to run directly at something that they cannot run through. So a bird placed at the base of a bale, either with a blind or dead bird mark can cause a dog a lot of trouble. If you set them up so the dog is tempted to go around the bale on the upwind side you will have a simple looking test that will cause a lot of handles. As has been said ad infinitum "put the birds where the dog doesn't want to go".
Mark L.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

sorry, i see this as just a good training field. lots of slots to train on blinds with and good haybales for hidden/ retired guns and good visibility with low cover so the dog sees the marks. but therein is the problem, dont you think the birds will be too visible for master level work? the whole test is the memory bird - if it goes in the cover, since the dogs will have gotten their birds easily in open cover. 2nd bird would possible be visible from the line. so after 2 birds in easy open cover is it fair to expect the dog to bust tiny corner of the only cover around, postage stamp-size as well?

fine for mechanics such as walk up, honor, and diversion, but this field needs a good rain and 2 -3 weeks growth then its ready.....


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Wack a picture is worth a thousand words. This may not be optimum use of the field but uses the hay bales for each mark and blind without them being winger hides.










I will discuss them in order of pickup. Mark 3 is thrown over haybale. If a dog runs to the gun there is a solid piece of cover seperating them from the bird. Mark 2 (middle mark)is thrown at the edge of a fairway. Not my mark originally but when a bird lands at the edge of a cover wall the dogs tendency is to take the open fairway and run. With all that blue sky and open ground the handler may need a four wheeler to go get the dog. The short hay bale in the foreground also will push the dog in the direction of the fairway. Mark 1 (right hand mark) is thrown to land at the base of the haybale. As mentioned dogs don't like to run directly at them. The mark doesn't look that difficult but from experience I can tell you a lot of dogs will have trouble. The blind is a simple slot using the haybales. Whether a judge fails you or not for getting behind the bales is not the point. The point is you have created a fairway that even the greenest of handlers will understand. No need for the "challenge the line to the blind" speech.

I am not a judge or retriever expert. Simply an amatuer that runs a lot of hayfields out of necessity. But this should give you lots of alternatives to using the bales as winger blinds.

Mark Land

Sorry about the sloppy handwriting but writing numbers with a mouse is a challenge for me.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

david gibson said:


> sorry, i see this as just a good training field. lots of slots to train on blinds with and good haybales for hidden/ retired guns and good visibility with low cover so the dog sees the marks. but therein is the problem, dont you think the birds will be too visible for master level work? the whole test is the memory bird - if it goes in the cover, since the dogs will have gotten their birds easily in open cover. 2nd bird would possible be visible from the line. so after 2 birds in easy open cover is it fair to expect the dog to bust tiny corner of the only cover around, postage stamp-size as well?
> 
> fine for mechanics such as walk up, honor, and diversion, but this field needs a good rain and 2 -3 weeks growth then its ready.....


sure, in an ideal world. But there are some places that very rarely have ideal grounds....


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

fishduck said:


> Wack a picture is worth a thousand words. This may not be optimum use of the field but uses the hay bales for each mark and blind without them being winger hides.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mark,

thanks that really helped...My thinking was that the dogs would be drawn to the hay bales because they are so visiable. therefore I wanted my marks as far away from them as I could get them. I have only ran 1 test in a hay baled field and only a couple training session in one so I'm not really sure how most dogs would react....thanks again


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

ok, here's my contribution:











numbers are in order thrown. 
since it is a low cover grounds, i want to get in the dogs heads and make them think. dogs like to avoid objects, right? so i am going to add objects (bb blinds) and the memory and no. 2 birds i want to throw inwards from a blind in an outside location, thinking the dogs will want to run to the outside of the blinds to avoid all the objects. the GO bird (3) is long and past the cover around the tree, the dog has to bust cover but he gets the confidence of running past all the objects.

if wind is l-r or r-l, and runs wide on 1 and/or 2, at least the wind helps him on one of them. 

the blind is a double keyhole, not sure of distance to the trees but it could be placed in the open past the last keyhole. you could even take some hay and spread it around a wide area to create extra cover so the dog does not see the blind from 50 yds off.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

david,

On marks 1 and two you have still put the marks right smack in the middle
ot the bale and gun station. Right where they will probably run. 
Take mark 1, if you placed the gunners deep of the left hand bale or to the right of it and threw in, square, or angle back and right to left and landed the bird a bit closer to the bale than the bird you have shown. What picture do they get as a memory when it is time to get it. A huge wide open field to the left. As you said dogs like to avoid objects. Even as you have it drawn, I'd throw it closer to the bale. Bird two, I'd angle it back straight at that deep bale.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

david gibson said:


> ok, here's my contribution:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



frankly I don't see the difference from your set-up to mine other than you have had to added gunner station as I did not....IMHO..granted this field has little to offer but it's all we have and we need to make it work....

Ps. I'll has some different Photo's of my training grounds later this evening..


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Finally figured it out. the tree made a bad background for seeing the bird so I moved it too.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

here is a little channel type picture - land/water combo...... and a set-up I came up with.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

HELP!!!! You are all giving me a complex; this is the 3rd time I have posted this and asked for your thoughts!!!!! My concern as to why nobody is replying is that the test is so bad that it defies a critique 

So being a glutton for punishment I will post again

Walk Up; 1st series, triple, double blind. I wrote my analysis on how my dog would do it when I posted it; thoughts and comments appreciate.

Wind from Right to Left.
________
HEALTH INSURANCE FORUMS


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Juli H said:


> here is a little channel type picture - land/water combo...... and a set-up I came up with.


Ohhh...I like this; give me a little time and I will comment; heading out to train for a bit...
________
Universal Health


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

another possibility...wind right to left - mark #1 thrown hard angle back across the slough 

Juli


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

OK, I'll give it a go since the system at work is so slow. I think the marks are good except for the long one. I am not sure how much of it the dog will see from the line due to the near hay bale. Your blinds are similar to what I posted. Re: the two outside marks. The left hand mark I put on the outside of the left hay bale because the gun stn and hay bale and the hill and the direction the field is mowed all push the dog left into the open field. In your mark it is good you threw it accross so it landed so the dog has to stay in close to the hay bale to get it otherwise they run between the two and definately do not pin it. The right hand mark you have the right idea.
Except all of your push is toward the bird. I don't think there is enough of a side slope to push the dog right. I think the dogs will want to dig up the hill and you won't get the push you expect.
However it is close enough to the bale as to make a difference. If you look at mine the push is up the fairway off of the gun station and the hay bale that the bird landed in front of. The dogs will want to dig up the hill into that fairway. But I do like your bird placement better than some of the others that were posted.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

Juli H said:


> another possibility...wind right to left - mark #1 thrown hard angle back across the slough
> 
> Juli


The marks look like a hot mess, Juli!!! 

I don't like that they're all thrown with the wind and all within one another's arcs. 

A mark thrown across a channel is challenging. I like the #1 mark. I don't like the two closer marks in conjunction with it. 

You can't control the #3 flyer to make sure that: a) it even ends up across the channel and b) it doesn't end up on top of the #2 fall. I think it's a bad place for a flyer.

I would tweak this to have a mark that is thrown to the left and lands where the #2 gunner IS. So that gunner would be further to the right of the pic. Take your flyer gunner and put him on the other side of the channel somewhere over where his bird is currently landing.

Blind is fine and expected for this type of water. Might add some difficulty by changing the line and having the dog take a slice off the brown point and then re-enter the channel.

-K


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

1st bush is 55 yds

2nd bush is 70 yds

group of tree are 100 to 115 yds to the left corner

pond is about 250+ yds

wind is 10 mph right to left


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> The marks look like a hot mess, Juli!!!
> 
> I don't like that they're all thrown with the wind and all within one another's arcs.
> 
> ...


Thanks Kristie for the comments... not knowing the distances in the photo makes it hard to determine (for me) how far apart the marks are...I agree the flyer needs good separation from the middle mark, or don't use a flyer for this test.......(we must have good gunners that shoot for our NAHRA test - they very rarely let the birds get too far off course... LOL! )

FWIW, I'd love to run this set-up.... It just looks fun. LOL!


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

Here you go... Birds around the horn left to right. Flyer on the two right birds... LOL


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Here you go... Birds around the horn left to right. Flyer on the two right birds... LOL


 
mwahahahaha...I better get some jet packs for my dog. 

Juli


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

left blind 1st...then marks....diversion bird on return from 1st mark.. then run blind up the middle


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Right hand bird take your choice water or land.
Concern with a memory anywhere to the left of the flyer landing spot is, can you see the dogs behind that stuff?
Left hand bird they better not square out or they are off to the left someplace. Thought about a channel blind but decided against it.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Here you go... Birds around the horn left to right. Flyer on the two right birds... LOL


Are the gunners wearing white coats?


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

My idea........


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

brandywinelabs said:


> OK, I'll give it a go since the system at work is so slow. I think the marks are good except for the long one. I am not sure how much of it the dog will see from the line due to the near hay bale. Your blinds are similar to what I posted. Re: the two outside marks. The left hand mark I put on the outside of the left hay bale because the gun stn and hay bale and the hill and the direction the field is mowed all push the dog left into the open field. In your mark it is good you threw it accross so it landed so the dog has to stay in close to the hay bale to get it otherwise they run between the two and definately do not pin it. The right hand mark you have the right idea.
> Except all of your push is toward the bird. I don't think there is enough of a side slope to push the dog right. I think the dogs will want to dig up the hill and you won't get the push you expect.
> However it is close enough to the bale as to make a difference. If you look at mine the push is up the fairway off of the gun station and the hay bale that the bird landed in front of. The dogs will want to dig up the hill into that fairway. But I do like your bird placement better than some of the others that were posted.


Brandwine; Thanks for your reply, I was definitely getting complex since I posted way back on page 15 You are right on with the concern over the long mark; I questioned it; however, decided this test would be geared more toward a solid Master dog as opposed to a young (in experience Master dog); I like the dog to see bird land, but with a more advanced dog felt as long as she/he saw the arch and the bird coming down (not necessarily landing); they could handle it; it would definitely be a challenge and would require a fairly strong send (voice); if they were trained to drive by the short guns, it was doable. Again...thanks for critique....
________
Plymouth gtx history


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Dog trainer. My marks were almost identical. With that wind I would be tempted to throw the middle mark accross to the left edge of the cover area and tight against the front of it.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Juli H said:


> another possibility...wind right to left - mark #1 thrown hard angle back across the slough
> 
> Juli


Whoa?this looks very tight to me for a test. Think if I had to have a flyer in this series, I would make it a land/water series and shoot the flyer off to the far right; have the gunner positioned further out in the right hand field angled back from where Flyer #3 gunner is now and shooting LtoR (assuming wind is LtoR as it appears in the photo).
________
Toyota hilux specifications


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Master land triple, no bulldog, both G1 and G2 in brushed in holding blinds. I decided not to run B2 as I think the scent of the blind would interfer with dogs running G1. Order G1, G2, then flyer. Honor at the line labeled B2.


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Howard N said:


> Master land triple, no bulldog, both G1 and G2 in brushed in holding blinds. I decided not to run B2 as I think the scent of the blind would interfer with dogs running G1. Order G1, G2, then flyer. Honor at the line labeled B2.


Nice Setup, Howard! I like that placement of the blind


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Howard,

I Really like that middle mark!


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Howard N said:


> Master land triple, no bulldog, both G1 and G2 in brushed in holding blinds. I decided not to run B2 as I think the scent of the blind would interfer with dogs running G1. Order G1, G2, then flyer. Honor at the line labeled B2.


Howard, which setup are you referring too????
________
 oxygen vaporizer


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Here you go... Birds around the horn left to right. Flyer on the two right birds... LOL


Kristie, this is not a MHT! Those distances would not be allowed Since this is a thread on MH tests, do you want us to pretend that that is not a 1000 yd blind and the long mark is not 650yds:razz::razz:?? Seriously, give me distances???
________
Peter collins (racing driver)


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

ReedCreek said:


> Kristie, this is not a MHT! Those distances would not be allowed Since this is a thread on MH tests, do you want us to pretend that that is not a 1000 yd blind and the long mark is not 650yds:razz::razz:?? Seriously, give me distances???


it's a JOKE... LOL The long mark and blind probably aren't even on the same property....


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> it's a JOKE... LOL The long mark and blind probably aren't even on the same property....


Thank God....I thought I was losing my mind Okay, I was thinking, maybe the first 3 marks; but that lllllllooooonnnnggggg one and the blind; dog would have to fly...even with white coats out there. Very funny Kristie
________
LAUNCH BOX VAPORIZER


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

I finally figured out how to post pictures. # 176 and 188
Would like to hear how others felt about them. Other than nice pictures. 
Too tough, too easy, Good use of cover, terrain, factors??


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)




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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

In the kidney shaped depression, with the wind that many have shown, r to l, why does everyone keep putting a memory bird on the right side or up the middle of the depression? Even if they avoid the cover and stay in the depression they wind it or if they just run the bottom of the depression they step on it.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

This piece of water begs for a delayed triple.










Throw marks 1 and 2. Most dogs will pick up 2 first but regardless when first bird is brought to hand a shot and bird is thrown from behind the line landing close to the point. Pick up the diversion and then pick up memory bird. If dog cheats bank instead of reentering the water on 2 they will end up upwind of the bird and downwind of the holding blind. May take a handle to get it. Then some business at the line to make sure the dog remembers bird 1. Both the diversion and mark 2 provide suction to the left for the blind. Also the dog may see the channel and want to swim left.

Just my take on it
Mark L.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

brandywinelabs said:


> In the kidney shaped depression, with the wind that many have shown, r to l, why does everyone keep putting a memory bird on the right side or up the middle of the depression? Even if they avoid the cover and stay in the depression they wind it or if they just run the bottom of the depression they step on it.


that's one of my training fields and 90% of the dogs that run this set-up run right down the creek..it's hard to see but the creek is there and what the dog needs to do cross the creek and push that 1st patch of cover and then they are golden other wise they run the creek which pulls them down and away from the fall area. they will either over run the make way left and get caught up in the flyers sent or have to be handled back up the hill.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

brandywinelabs said:


> Right hand bird take your choice water or land.
> Concern with a memory anywhere to the left of the flyer landing spot is, can you see the dogs behind that stuff?
> Left hand bird they better not square out or they are off to the left someplace. Thought about a channel blind but decided against it.


why would you put a blind in front of the Gunners station??


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> why would you put a blind in front of the Gunners station??


Its all about control. Won't most dogs square out left or channel right and in both cases get out intent on going long?


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)




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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

no complaining about deke placement!  snow goose rags....

Juli


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

Juli H said:


> no complaining about deke placement!  snow goose rags....
> 
> Juli


deke placement is great.  

No hot blinds though, ever. Because you never know when the wind is going to change and you could really screw some dogs.

I also don't like marks thrown "in" towards the line. Very difficult for dogs to mark. I prefer that dogs are allowed to see a full arc, which IMO is important to allowing them to mark well. A mark thrown in just looks like it goes straight up and down; there's very little way to gauge a distance.

I do love texas rags, though. So easy to do for cheap cheap!!! And really great for training/testing.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> deke placement is great.
> 
> No hot blinds though, ever. Because you never know when the wind is going to change and you could really screw some dogs.
> 
> ...


 
hot blinds are not uncommon here (in NAHRA tests) I tried to use the depth of the field to get the blind far enough behind that mark and to the side that it would not affect a dog unless they had really mismarked that fall...(I can see your point on the thrown in..maybe move the gun station, but keep the fall in the same general location)......I figured that a hot blind would be a point of conversation and that was why I put it in. 

Juli


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

brandywinelabs said:


> Right hand bird take your choice water or land.
> Concern with a memory anywhere to the left of the flyer landing spot is, can you see the dogs behind that stuff?
> Left hand bird they better not square out or they are off to the left someplace. Thought about a channel blind but decided against it.





brandywinelabs said:


> I finally figured out how to post pictures. # 176 and 188
> Would like to hear how others felt about them. Other than nice pictures.
> Too tough, too easy, Good use of cover, terrain, factors??


Little unsure of what you are doing here......Is the neon green the blinds? If so, what is the short blind accomplishing? Headed straight to the gun station, right where they are looking and the very first place they want to go. Plus, they don't have to go out in the channel, can cop out by jumping out on land right there. Right blind is nice, have to go in the water or in big trouble. Good job there. That left hand mark, is that going angle back? It would seem to be pretty hard to see. Angle backs are good, just make sure the dogs can see a good view of the mark. Middle mark is okay, right hand mark is a good training mark, but I wouldn't want it in a test. Because even if they run the bank, they are in just as good of a position to pick the bird up as they would have staying in the water. And you just re-enforced a bad habit.

Hope it helps, 

Abby


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

Juli H said:


> hot blinds are not uncommon here (in NAHRA tests) I tried to use the depth of the field to get the blind far enough behind that mark and to the side that it would not affect a dog unless they had really mismarked that fall...(I can see your point on the thrown in..maybe move the gun station, but keep the fall in the same general location)......I figured that a hot blind would be a point of conversation and that was why I put it in.
> 
> Juli


In my limited experience I've seen a lot of tests with Hot blinds (thought it was normal for Master)

Angled in marks are a little tougher IMO. They are typical in HRC ( angle in, not straight in)

Just thinkin outloud.

Steve


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

golden dude said:


> In my limited experience I've seen a lot of tests with Hot blinds (thought it was normal for Master)
> 
> Angled in marks are a little tougher IMO. They are typical in HRC ( angle in, not straight in)
> 
> ...


I've never seen or heard of one being used in any AKC Masters...Quickly looked thru the AKC rule book and nothing is mentioned about "hot" blinds


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

MH double setup on Water.... Bird one is on the left landing just on the other side of that clump of grass, swing to the right, have a bird splash out in the water. Retrieve go bird, diversion goes up, retrieve that, get memory bird, go get the blind.
That is your test.


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

brandywinelabs said:


> Right hand bird take your choice water or land.
> Concern with a memory anywhere to the left of the flyer landing spot is, can you see the dogs behind that stuff?
> Left hand bird they better not square out or they are off to the left someplace. Thought about a channel blind but decided against it.


This is a fun little test. While, I am not a fan of mama/papa throws; they are a fact of hunt tests. Potential issues for my dog might be: 

G1: From the line, it really appears to be tight to that gun station and depending on how strong the wind is blowing (LtoR) dog could fade past that point and end up in trouble.

G2: Not sure what you mean that there is a choice between water or land on G2; I see a small ?pothole? of water on line to the bird; I would like to see the dog take that water; if it doesn?t it?s likely to get behind the gunner and have to hunt some. 

F3: Flyer can land anywhere; from the water on the left to farther behind the flumes?and if you can?t see the dog; you can probably see the grass moving?so you have an idea if your dog is going off into buffaland. Another potential concern would be that some dogs don?t like to hunt short after a long bird.

I would pick up Flyer first, G2 2nd; and come back for G1. I would do the right hand blind first and then the left hand blind. Left blind is pretty straight forward. Wind (LtoR)on the right blind may cause dog to fade towards that flyer fall (if it lands where you project it); I would be quick on that whistle (hopefully);-).

Please feel free to critique my critique; the fun is in the learning
________
Newport


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

wackemnstackem said:


> why would you put a blind in front of the Gunners station??


I "would" have said the same thing; but the first Master test I ran there was short blind smack on the way to the bird; so while I might not put one there...apparently they do put them there
________
Aod Transmission


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

man o man - i so totally love you guys and what you are contributing here. i have been very quiet just trying to learn all i can - tryin' to learn the good from the bad, etc etc, but its all good! a bad set up is still good because we still learn from it.....

and i realize that the vast majority of you guys up there are homebound from snow/ice here in January and cant train- whereas i can do whatever i want here right now. you are jealous that i have great grounds to train on in dead of winter - but trust me - i am equally if not more jealous that you have better grounds overall - more hills and dales etc. , and have dead summer to train in whereas i have to really really be careful in summer heat of 100 deg plus.!

its so easy for me to forget that you took the pic last summer and that right now that field is snow-covered and unusable. sorry, deep in the south here we just dont get that.. ;-)

so - since these threads have been soooo popular and helpful - i expect to see at least a few of these run with real dogs after the thaw! c'mon - if i can bare my dog for all to see then so can you!

trust me - i will remind you...now - carry on!


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

david these pic's where taken today before I trained in the pouring rain..can't you tell the pond is frozen....I get it you don't know what Ice looks like now do you...lol....Northest Pa


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Dave....please join in... that is what it is for.... 

Juli


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

ReedCreek said:


> This is a fun little test. While, I am not a fan of mama/papa throws; they are a fact of hunt tests. Potential issues for my dog might be:
> 
> G1: From the line, it really appears to be tight to that gun station and depending on how strong the wind is blowing (LtoR) dog could fade past that point and end up in trouble.
> 
> ...


G1, yes I would want it tight but not so tight the dog doesn't get a good look.
I want it tight - invite the dog to hunt to the left. even if they mark it, they will have to dig it out in the cover. Thrown further left plays right into what I would expect the weaker dogs to do.

G2 Yes if they take the land they probably end up behind the gun stn. Ifthey take the water they better know where they are going or they will get out past the bird.

G3 Exactly why it is the flyer. questionable whether or not you could see to handle as a mem bird.

Short blind. I really think that the dogs will push off the gun stn left or right because of the line they took to bird one. Or will think channel. Assuming the bird is not visible from the line. I really think it has more to it than you think. I could be wrong.

thanks for the critique.
I don't generally like mama papa throws either. This, I felt was an excellent place for one. I like good solid tests that are a straight forward challenge. Ones that people like to stay and watch as opposed to overly contrived tests. Where they go watch the other stakes.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Little unsure of what you are doing here......Is the neon green the blinds? If so, what is the short blind accomplishing? Headed straight to the gun station, right where they are looking and the very first place they want to go. Plus, they don't have to go out in the channel, can cop out by jumping out on land right there. Right blind is nice, have to go in the water or in big trouble. Good job there. That left hand mark, is that going angle back? It would seem to be pretty hard to see. Angle backs are good, just make sure the dogs can see a good view of the mark. Middle mark is okay, right hand mark is a good training mark, but I wouldn't want it in a test. Because even if they run the bank, they are in just as good of a position to pick the bird up as they would have staying in the water. And you just re-enforced a bad habit.
> 
> Hope it helps,
> 
> Abby


Thanks Abby.

Yes neon green is gun stn blinds.
See other posts re short blind. It could be easy but I don't think so.
RH bird. Hopefully there is enough cover to hide the bird. It is a mem bird
un less selection is used. I expect dogs to go past it in the water to the left and those that take the shore need to hug the shore and follow the contour or they miss it. It too could be easy but I think it is where the dogs won't be inclined to go. Re the bad habit, they should be able to run a mark or blind near the shore either on land or water at this level.
Thanks for the comments.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I dislike the left hand blind. Some dogs absolutely will not go to the flyer crates. I think it's an artificial judge's trick (you won't see flyer crates when hunting) to get rid of dogs instead of showing what dogs can do.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

brandywinelabs said:


> *they should be able to run a mark or blind near the shore either on land or water at this level.*
> Thanks for the comments.


not according to some folks...." see water get into water "


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I have seen some great training tests posted. Clearly people are spending time with their pro trainers. Carry on....

/Paul


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> not according to some folks...." see water get into water "


Guilty as charged. I dislike contrary marks as a general rule. I understand the ocassional need for them if the grounds are marginal. Please don't throw them when the terrain has all the features needed for difficulty. Most of the proposed contrary marks and blinds were thrown on a very nice piece of technical water. They added nothing IMHO to the difficulty but make for interesting training days the next week.
Mark L.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Field mark










I ran the flyer first as drawn coming out behind the bush at approximately 70 yards. With the wind not a lot of difficulty. Next the indented middle bird thrown angled slightly in landing in front of the bush at 50 yards. If secondary selected probably not much problem but doing this with a flyer on the ground may not work for many dogs. I can see a lot of dogs going to the races on the indent. Last bird 3 thrown angled hard back. If the dog falls down the hill and squares the cover changes it will be upwind of the fall and have a hard time recovering. The blind is a slot that is directly downwind of the flyer station. The test is short and sweet and should provide some answers.

This test would probably not get me invited back. I got carried away. Ordered 3, 2, and then flyer keeps the difficulty without cluttering up the test.

Paul feel free to critique me. You won't hurt my pro's feelings as I don't have one and my skin is VERY thick!!!
Mark L.


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

wackemnstackem said:


> david these pic's where taken today before I trained in the pouring rain..can't you tell the pond is frozen....I get it you don't know what Ice looks like now do you...lol....Northest Pa


frozen pond - pouring rain - at the same time???? are you nutz??

;-)

you yanks are tough buzzards!


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

fishduck said:


> Field mark
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When running this test would it not be better to pick the birds up 3-1-2(give the dog the flyer after go-bird) and let dog "settle" a moment before a soft send to the short bird?? Just curious

Steve


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

golden dude said:


> When running this test would it not be better to pick the birds up 3-1-2(give the dog the flyer after go-bird) and let dog "settle" a moment before a soft send to the short bird?? Just curious
> 
> Steve


It would depend on how well your dog was trained. If the dog understands secondary selection and you've trained it for the dog's life, or *if this is training*, then I'd do it 3-2-F. And yes it would be sofft and slllooooow and I'd be talking to him eeeaaasssy to talk him into that short bird. 

If at a test and the dog came back and locked in on the flyer and you don't have any faith you can talk him off, you don't have much choice but to get the flyer 2nd. That makes the indented bird harder. In either event, be ready on the whistle if the dog blows through the indented bird.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Howard N said:


> It would depend on how well your dog was trained. If the dog understands secondary selection and you've trained it for the dog's life, or *if this is training*, then I'd do it 3-2-F. And yes it would be sofft and slllooooow and I'd be talking to him eeeaaasssy to talk him into that short bird.
> 
> If at a test and the dog came back and locked in on the flyer and you don't have any faith you can talk him off, you don't have much choice but to get the flyer 2nd. That makes the indented bird harder. In either event, be ready on the whistle if the dog blows through the indented bird.


I agree with Howard. Any regardless of when I decide to go for the short middle bird, I wouldn't be giving any hard sit commands and I'd be taking a long time before sending with a push to keep him to the middle.

/Paul


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I agree with Howard. Any regardless of when I decide to go for the short middle bird, I wouldn't be giving any hard sit commands and I'd be taking a long time before sending with a push to keep him to the middle.
> 
> /Paul


Ok I know to calm a dog for a short mark. But how does a hard sit jack the dog up?
Steve


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2010)

golden dude said:


> Ok I know to calm a dog for a short mark. But how does a hard sit jack the dog up?
> Steve


adds "pressure" and pressure will 99% of the time make the dog drive. (even though it's "just" a sit). I would tell my dog sit if he wasn't already, but it would be very calm and relaxed.

The key to picking up short, technical memory birds is to have a RELAXED dog that is focused and willing to take it down a few pegs -- esp after having gone long first and/or having a flyer that is or was deeper than the short bird you're trying to pull out.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

golden dude said:


> Ok I know to calm a dog for a short mark. But how does a hard sit jack the dog up?
> Steve


A hard sit will drive the dog. Much like a verbal cast in the field. For the short mark, I'd be quiet, slow and calm. Queue the dog with an easy queue....

/paul


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanx, I will remmember that. No hard sit when trying to relax dog!!

Steve


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

> It would depend on how well your dog was trained. If the dog understands secondary selection and you've trained it for the dog's life, or if this is training, then I'd do it 3-2-F. And yes it would be sofft and slllooooow and I'd be talking to him eeeaaasssy to talk him into that short bird.
> 
> If at a test and the dog came back and locked in on the flyer and you don't have any faith you can talk him off, you don't have much choice but to get the flyer 2nd. That makes the indented bird harder. In either event, be ready on the whistle if the dog blows through the indented bird.


I agree. For my girl I would use an easy cue and very soft voice (in theory); in reality, I would tell myself that as I stood at the line and then out would come this voice from h** and I would be looking sheepishly at the judge...too much voice! and, yup; she blew by it....hopefully I have learned my lesson! All goes back to practice, practice, practice!

Kristie is so right..."voice "adds pressure" and pressure will 99% of the time make the dog drive. (even though it's "just" a sit). I would tell my dog sit if he wasn't already, but it would be very calm and relaxed.

The key to picking up short, technical memory birds is to have a RELAXED dog that is focused and willing to take it down a few pegs -- esp after having gone long first and/or having a flyer that is or was deeper than the short bird you're trying to pull out."

This is great stuff both for training and testing!!!!
________
Toyota Prius Specifications


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

I have a question about my short indent test. I do not judge and only set up training set ups. With the order in the pic is this more of a training set up for working on an indent/out of order flyer/secondary selection? Would a better Master test start with bird 3 around the horn to the flyer? 

Thanks for any input!!
Mark Land


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## ReedCreek (Dec 30, 2007)

fishduck said:


> I have a question about my short indent test. I do not judge and only set up training set ups. With the order in the pic is this more of a training set up for working on an indent/out of order flyer/secondary selection? Would a better Master test start with bird 3 around the horn to the flyer?
> 
> Thanks for any input!!
> Mark Land


I train with secondary selection and have for most of my girls training...so my plan would be to secondary select with this test whether training or testing; however, if she showed me something different at the line, or dog after dog who I knew understood secondary selection failed to select, I hope I would think quickly enough on my feet to change my plan once on the line. So easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.
________
CLEAR TRICHOMES


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Bump...Anyone have more training field pictures?


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)




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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)




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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Delayed land triple w/ blind and diversion. First bird out is the left hand flyer shooting R-L, 2nd bird swing to right shooting R-L. Middle bird is #3, shooting L-R. Pick up that mark, Diversion bird comes out. Retrieve that one, then can pick up any of the two remaining memory marks. Get through that, run the blind.


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Don't know if in "real life" one would be able to walk out to those spots of land, but in this scenario, we are going to say that you can.  Right to left triple, pick them up in any order. If I were judging, don't know if I would use a blind, but just in case you are wanting one, there it is. :mrgreen:


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Don't know if in "real life" one would be able to walk out to those spots of land, but in this scenario, we are going to say that you can.  Right to left triple, pick them up in any order. If I were judging, don't know if I would use a blind, but just in case you are wanting one, there it is. :mrgreen:


To clarify: You have #2 as an incoming bird and blind run thru the area of that fall?


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## golden dude (Oct 19, 2009)

Dogtrainer4God said:


> Don't know if in "real life" one would be able to walk out to those spots of land, but in this scenario, we are going to say that you can.  Right to left triple, pick them up in any order. If I were judging, don't know if I would use a blind, but just in case you are wanting one, there it is. :mrgreen:


I take it you are a fan of [email protected] marks? I am to inexperienced to have a good opinion. It seems some folks don't care for them. They look to me like totally seperate, defined AOF's. The previous post (land series) almost looks "too easy". I predict it would be fast moving test. Most dogs would get the marks clean, and get the blind with one or two whistles.

This photo-(rice field?) looks fun, and the blind a bit more challenging. Well trained dogs would not have a problem. So where are you judging this year?

Steve


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Thomas D said:


> To clarify: You have #2 as an incoming bird and blind run thru the area of that fall?


 Yes, that is correct. In re-looking at it, with the wind direction, just because of the shorter distance I wanted on it, I think I would use it as a wipe out bird from the left hand shooting out to that spot.



golden dude said:


> I take it you are a fan of [email protected] marks? I am to inexperienced to have a good opinion. *It seems some folks don't care for them.* They look to me like totally seperate, defined AOF's.


Yes, I generally am not too fond of them as well when the AOF is not clearly defined and don't generally set them up. Nothing that irritates me more than when there isn't good distance between marks or blinds and the dog cannot hunt for the bird. However, in these fields, I was trying to use as much of the natural cover to hide the wingers, and getting the marks separated as best as possible. If you read my previous reply to Thomas, I think I would change the one water mark to a left-hand wipe out now though, but.....



> The previous post (land series) almost looks "too easy". I predict it would be fast moving test. Most dogs would get the marks clean, and get the blind with one or two whistles.


 What you have to look at in it is the way the edge of the field goes at an angle. RE: Right hand mark - Since the wind is going r-l, it could push the dogs into the grass, but on the other hand, if they don't get in, they can't smell the bird. Remember, this mark is wiped out by the diversion shot after the angle-back go bird is retrieved. 

The blind I wasn't sure where to put. Didn't want to go down the path, and have a re-entry into the corned of grass. too easy...Where it is, they are catching some of the blowing flyer scent which was the original thought in putting in there. Could have also put it between marks 3 & 2.

Probably right on the fast moving part, I don't know what the cover is like out there either....


> This photo-(rice field?) looks fun, and the blind a bit more challenging. Well trained dogs would not have a problem. *So where are you judging this year?*


Nowhere Hope to next year when I turn 18, am greatly looking forward to it! Love to set up marks and critique them. 

Got dogs to train this year though, 

Abby Eash


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Holding blind for flyer did not show up
Thrown right to left.
the right hand blind should show deeper of the flyer,
more at the back edge of the cover.
Does this looks fun?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

forgot to add that the diversion is thrown after dog comes back from go bird....


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

re Juli's diagram.

One of the problems I have with this type of pond is once the first 5 dogs have run there are trails to the birds. great for training though.
Putting birds in these types of water/covers with a good amount of open type water between the line and the birds helps to prevent paths most of the way to the bird.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

water










Run 1,2,3 and then blind. Two long swims unless this is running water. May run into time issues with this. 1 mark is the meat of the marking test. A dog that runs the bank will have a hard time picking this up. 2 and 3 are short birds in cover and may cause some breaks. The blind is intentionally set up to the right of the slot. Well trained dogs will recognize the concept and do well. Others will suck to the old falls, winger blinds and the bank.
Mark L.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Land










Run 1,2,3, and blind.

The toughest mark IMHO is 1 with the fairway to the right of the mark there is a lot of room to run. After running the open ground for 90 yards few dogs are going to bust into the cover. Some will recover on their own but I would expect a few handles. Mark 2 thrown inward will also cause some dogs to overun the mark. The flyer provides lots of suction for the blind and dog goes through the scent cone of mark 2.


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Some more fields to work with........


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)




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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

Wind going to the left......Set up order is Right, left, middle. Pick them up in any order, move to to the left to orange line and run the blinds.


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## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)




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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

here's my idea with the wind at your back or slightly crosswind from either side. each mark has it's own area, making marking pretty easy to judge, imo.

# 1 needs to either fall in the cover or just on the back side. #2 falls just in front of the bush.

to get a good score on blind #1 the dog needs to be kept tight to the strip of cover, but can be on either side. blind #2 is about not going back to the area the flyer was launched from or the line to blind#1.

white dots are decoys.

i think this is a good 1st series for MH testing.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

paul young said:


> here's my idea with the wind at your back or slightly crosswind from either side. each mark has it's own area, making marking pretty easy to judge, imo.
> 
> # 1 needs to either fall in the cover or just on the back side. #2 falls just in front of the bush.
> 
> ...


Good test, Paul.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Paul,

I'd like to run that one. Looks like a good fun challenge.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

With all the talk about junior/senior/master marks in the other thread I thought I'd bump this up and see if anyone wants to take a crack at looking through these and point out what marks would be inappropriate for junior dogs, running them as singles of course.

Bumpity bump...


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's the closest picture to Buzz's post.

I would* not* use both 1 and 2 for a junior dog. That's to tight IMO and you are testing the trained ability of the dog to run by a tight converging bird and not marking. The flyer and *either *1 *or* 2 is fine with me assuming the distance is within the 100 yard range. I'd either ask the flyer station to throw a little more square or move the running line left a little bit to make the flyer not so much of a back throw. 

The blinds seem fine for a JH dog. :razz: 

OK just kidding about the blinds.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Howard N said:


> Here's the closest picture to Buzz's post.
> 
> I would* not* use both 1 and 2 for a junior dog. That's to tight IMO and you are testing the trained ability of the dog to run by a tight converging bird and not marking. The flyer and *either *1 *or* 2 is fine with me assuming the distance is within the 100 yard range. I'd either ask the flyer station to throw a little more square or move the running line left a little bit to make the flyer not so much of a back throw.
> 
> ...



Howard, I agree with you. They shouldn't be thrown in a set-up together. But as isolated marks, I don't see anything wrong with either. I'm not sure I understand the labeling in the photo though. Does the mark get thrown from or to where the numbers are? If they are thrown from the number, then I'd throw mark two at the base of the bush and not from it.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

N;557088]










OK, the marks are in yellow. I wouldn't do these to a junior dog.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)




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## UGA Quackhead (Oct 2, 2007)

I am not trying to call anyone out but, I have never been hunting when the birds kept coming toward me as I was shooting at them. I believe that we should make "hunt test" as much like hunting as possible and the bird order is one way that this can easily be done. In "hunt test" senario's, I believe that the first bird to fall should be the closest and the last bird to fall should be the longest bird you have. I agree that there should be challengin marks but you should be able to accomplish this without building the dog up to break with a close flyer for the third bird down (I have never seen this hunting). I some of these senario's seen here make for great training but I personally do not want to train when I pay to enter a hunt test, I can train anytime. I guess I am making this comment to try explain that I think you can get good answers from dogs with well placed marks and not by making the dog do something that goes totally against what happens when hunting. (This does not pertain to AA or any field trial concepts.)

When I judges master test I try to make it as much like hunting possible and I think our sport will continue to grow if we keep it as close to hunting as we can.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

There are many of us who were taught to "leave the candy for last" and work from the back of the flock to the front when a wad of ducks has thier feet down. Its very typical to have a short splash bird last when you do it that way. I have found you kill more ducks that way, too.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

By always having the short bird first you are often setting up an indented concept. When I am hunting I will blow the whistle and put the dog on the bird. In a test the handle will be penalized. With a fully committed flock I will often let the first birds land and take the back birds first.

Not really trying to say you are wrong because an upper level hunt test dog should be trained to handle an indent. But wanted you to think about why you are setting up this concept. It is impossible to recreate a flock of 20 mallards dumping in the decoys.
Mark Land


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## HYDROPHILIC (Aug 28, 2009)

Here's a playground for yall. About 10,000 set-ups you can do on this pond.


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## HYDROPHILIC (Aug 28, 2009)

Can't get my PowerPoint to work on laptop so I cobbled up some PAINT lines on here. Pretty lame....

What do yall think of this test?


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Is #1 thrown straight at the line?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I want to know WHERE!!!! And I agree with Buzz, not sure about that throwing straight at the line, especially memory bird?? I sure am not saying its wrong, I just need an explanation of the test here.


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

looks to me to be thrown away from the line. It looks like to me the boxes are the holding blinds or gunners and the circle is the fall.

Russell


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## HYDROPHILIC (Aug 28, 2009)

Yep the boxes are the wingers and the circles are the birds. I thought this would simulate a flock of birds coming in left to right killing them as the flare back and go away. If ran as HRC test I'd have the honor shoot bird two and both the honor and working shoot the last bird to setup the blind. 

Would do a flyer for bird 2 if running as MH test. 

This pond is ridiculous. Created by some guy with a trackhoe and way too much time. Filled with gators during the summer  Gonna try to train it this winter and spring till the water warms up.


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

I'd be interested to know what people think about the pitfalls of the blind (to the dog)..Looks like a very challenging blind - swim past the fall that was just picked up, stay along the shoreline, then on the point, off the point, stay in the water - possibly suck to the island due to wind and temptation, then near the last point and stay wet again...

what is the vegetation on the islands like? 

tough blind -but, IMHO, acceptable for master....

Juli


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## HYDROPHILIC (Aug 28, 2009)

Sandy banks. Broomsedge and Bermuda grass. 

Pond is full of stick ups and covered with duckweed and watermeal. 

I'll take a pic with my CrackBerry.


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