# Should HT types go for FT bred pups?



## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

So I'm excited 'cause I put a deposit down on a pup (see other posts here.) I'm at a training day with my HT club and for the most part, everyone is back-slapping me and telling me I made a great choice. However... another person (one I respect a lot) made the following argument:

After 30 plus years of hunt-testing, there are many, many dogs out there with multiple National titles. For example: a litter in our club had, within the first 3 generations, over 20 national quailfications and many finishes. BUT that meant the pups were 4 generations from any FT titles. Doubtless these pups are going to be fabulous dogs for their game. (The dam was a very young MH, the sire a 5 time finisher at the Master National and would have been much more but died rather young.) But I don't get why a FT breeding couldn't be as good or better. The rationale for this argument seemed a bit vague but I think it boiled down to well-bred HT dogs have all the drive, but not any of the crazy.

I'd appreciate your opinions. (I'm still pumped about what might be in my future.)


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

I'll be the first to say BS. Buy the best you can afford and hope for the best.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Buy the most well bred dog you can. Hopefully it's from field trial lines. Good luck.


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## cocdawg (Mar 9, 2013)

I hope so....I've got a FC/AFC pup and plan on running HRC.

DISCLAIMER: I'm a complete newbie at the retriever games but I did what I had heard over and over-buy the best you can afford.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

I agree. Buy the best dog that you can afford.


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## Hambone (Mar 4, 2003)

I would take a very close look at the sire and dam if possible before buying a FT pup for HT. I would want to observe line manners and steadiness. part of the equation is the trainer and handler and some of these FT dogs are too "hot" for an inexperienced trainer to handle. I have had two dogs from FT lines that were too much for my level of ability as a trainer and my temperament. Too high strung, noisy in the blind or on the line and just a PITA. Many FT dogs are steady and focused and make great hunting companions. Some are only under control because a pro trainer has the experience and knowledge to handle them. The average HT trainer might not be able to do so or even want to deal with the challenges of training and handling some of these hard chargers. Be honest with yourself about your abilities as a trainer and what you want in a hunting companion... And know what kind of dog you are likely to get by watching the parents working before plunking down your cash.


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

I got told this same thing by a HRC and AKC hunt test guy. In fact got told, "you got the wrong breeding for this game". This from a guy who has a 5 year old still trying to get his SH title while I am 4 for 4 in the senior test and she just turned two a week ago. I have yet to see a FC AFC who couldn't compete in the hunt test game yet many, many MH couldn't hold a candle to the open test. As stated by the best bred pup you can afford then finance the rest! You will be glad you did.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Backwater said:


> I got told this same thing by a HRC and AKC hunt test guy. In fact got told, "you got the wrong breeding for this game". This from a guy who has a 5 year old still trying to get his SH title while I am 4 for 4 in the senior test and she just turned two a week ago. I have yet to see a FC AFC who couldn't compete in the hunt test game yet many, many MH couldn't hold a candle to the open test. As stated by the best bred pup you can afford then finance the rest! You will be glad you did.


Just buy the best dog you can afford! And teach the dog the best you can. All dogs are different and all handlers are different in what we know. Ask questions and listen and watch! Just do the best you can and have fun! Don't worry about the other guy/gal! JMHO


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Yeah, if you can afford it, buy one of them G*ntl*m*n's G*nd*gs that come guaranteed to do everything (everything but wear an e-collar, that is), including training _*you*_ not to run HTs.

MG


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## ad18 (Aug 23, 2006)

I don't agree with the initial statement in general. I believe a FT bred dog can compete in the hunt test game successfully, I have two of them. However, if possible I would make the effort to go see both parents playing their respective games and watch how the dogs work. High strung dogs are a handful for anyone to run and there is not real "off" switch. Even if the dog is well behaved line manners wise, watch the dogs eyes, and how the dog breaths. If there is that crazed look and the dog is breathing aggressively you may be in for a handful. If the dog shows a more calm demeanor that is maybe what you want. If you can't physically go see the dogs ask the breeder their honest opinion about their temperaments, see if there may be videos of the dogs working, and insure he/she knows what you are going to do with the dog. My one dog was extremely difficult to run in hunt tests. The excitement of the duck calls, guns going off, was more than he could usually handle. Put him in a FT and the remote commotion he was a totally different dog. My experience...........


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't think that it is always the breeding but the dog. Not all FT breedings, even with the firebreathers, are going to have every pup be that way. This is where I think it is important to be honest with the breeder on what you are actually doing with the dog and let the breeder pick the right pup. If you get the hottest pup out of the hottest breeding and you are not very experienced, you *might* have problems. We have certainly seen those dogs. So don't get the hottest pup out of the breeding and you should be just fine. Don't go the route Crackerd suggested, tongue in cheek, either.

Interestingly, I was going through some old stuff and found some HT programs from when I first got in the game in the early 90s. There were very few dogs with even one FC/AFC parent. Look at a typical program today and see how few don't have at least one. Lots of dogs in HTs these days do come from FT lines, for sure.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

It is all about the nature of the beast ....You can find high strung with so much desire that it takes an experienced hand to control from any pair of dogs...But the odds can be stacked in your favor to meet your needs if you look around and talk to enough people....Some so called HOT FT dogs have produced some very controllable family pet dogs in the house ....I believe the most important factor is how the dog is raised and the standards of behavior you allow....Parent evaluation is more important than paper when it comes to behavior...Steve S


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Oh my!! I think you have made a big mistake! 

You are wanting to play in HTs and you bought one of those high-rolling, out-of-control FT dogs???? What were you thinking?? :shock:

Tongue in cheek, of course. Is LeBron too good to play on a college team??

Have fun!

JS


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

ad18 said:


> I don't agree with the initial statement in general. I believe a FT bred dog can compete in the hunt test game successfully, I have two of them. However, if possible I would make the effort to go see both parents playing their respective games and watch how the dogs work. High strung dogs are a handful for anyone to run and there is not real "off" switch. Even if the dog is well behaved line manners wise, watch the dogs eyes, and how the dog breaths. If there is that crazed look and the dog is breathing aggressively you may be in for a handful. If the dog shows a more calm demeanor that is maybe what you want. If you can't physically go see the dogs ask the breeder their honest opinion about their temperaments, see if there may be videos of the dogs working, and insure he/she knows what you are going to do with the dog. My one dog was extremely difficult to run in hunt tests. The excitement of the duck calls, guns going off, was more than he could usually handle. Put him in a FT and the remote commotion he was a totally different dog. My experience...........



I really wish I could have done exactly as you suggested in the beginning of your post, but as you acknowledged, this isn't always possible. Especially out west there is a lot of driving between clubs and trials and tests, and unless you do a lot of it (and not work 6 days a week and into the night like many of us are doing these days) you don't get to see a enough dogs. And let me say right here... this is why this web page is such a blessing. There are a lot of people with a good eye and their own opinions and if you cruise around here a bunch, you can learn SO much.

Having said that, I really did spend time communicating with the breeder who steered me away from one prospective litter. Had I been willing to wait a few more months, he said there was a litter that would have drive coming out their ears and every other orifice and we both agreed, maybe that wasn't the pairing for someone like me. So I think (but who knows!) I did as close to what you said as I could.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

On the other side of the coin, there are dogs I have seen that I would not want a piece of in my dog. So it makes sense to look at the parents cause those are the pieces you are going to get. Good paper doesn't mean you going to get the right dog for you. when i see a fire breather I look to see who they are out of an would tend to stay away from that litter, however I have heard that some of those fire breather have produced some real nice not fire breather dogs. The reality of the end result is
Dog+training+hunting experience (or trial experience)=the Finished Dog
take one of those building blocks out of the equation, = what you get


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Any time you hear broad generalizations about "Hunt Test dogs" and "Field Trial dogs", you are going to get nothing but BS. Just to give some perspective, I put basics on lots of young dogs of all types. I get everything from very nice FT breedings to bench type dogs to Craigslist puppies to pet store dogs. Even the occasional silver lab ;-). 
While I agree that you should buy the best pup you can afford, "best" for someone starting their first or second hunt test/hunting dog doesn't necessarily mean the pup with the highest titled parents. There are FC AFC (and MH and HRCH) dogs that tend to throw very level-headed, biddable pups that can do the work required for hunt tests and can settle down in the duck blind or in the living room. 
There are also MH (and FC AFC and HRCH) dogs that throw crackheads that can't be quiet, pace and paint their kennels, have no "off switch" in the house and whine incessantly in the duck blind. I don't care how well a dog like this can pick up the chickens, I'm not willing to put up with the baggage that comes with it.
My point is, for a hunt test/hunting dog, make sure you are looking beyond the capital letters around a dog's name. We are breeding dogs, not titles. One man's opinion.


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## Richard Davis (Feb 9, 2011)

Watch the parents work & find out if they were trained by a pro or amateur trained. We have had 3 Field Champions & 4 HRCH . Two of the Field Champions were also HRCH's. That being said. I would only hunt with one of the Field Champions as my sons requested that I leave FTCH Dakota HRCH home as he was very animated in blind & didn't understand missing a duck over decoys. Have Fun with your dog!


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## Robert Hines (Mar 26, 2008)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Just buy the best dog you can afford! And teach the dog the best you can. All dogs are different and all handlers are different in what we know. Ask questions and listen and watch! Just do the best you can and have fun! Don't worry about the other guy/gal! JMHO


This is my thinking


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

People get so wrapped up in this is a FT dog or HT dog. Each dog is different and what exactly says what category FT or HT mean what. Buy a nice bred dog and train it however style you want. If you buy from a nice pedigree, its the training the dog receives. HT and FT are two different SPORTS. Buy a dog and go play whatever you want. I've seen FC's line every mark at a HRCH test without seeing the birds down, because of their disipline and training to go straight. IMO your odds are better to buy a pup out of the one that produces the champions you like, most of the times those are FC's.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Maybe I was prejudiced toward a FT breeding this time because 4 years ago I went with a good solid, reputable hunting dog (HT) breeder. The pup is a sweetie, but has a lot of flaws, won't listen up if the right person isn't on the line with her, sulks, bugs, pouts and goes deaf selectively. (I love her though.) And this is a solid breeder who has produced titled dogs all up and down the west coast. (If she only did it with me... I'd know I was the problem. But the pro and everyone else in our training group says the same thing.)

I just thought this time, I'd try to stack the deck as much in my favor as possible. I thought I was doing the right thing and the future may prove me right. Who knows.


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

JS said:


> Oh my!! I think you have made a big mistake!
> 
> You are wanting to play in HTs and you bought one of those high-rolling, out-of-control FT dogs???? What were you thinking?? :shock:
> 
> ...


Exactly! I lecture folks all the time who think that any breeding with a FC in is too much dog for "just a hunting dog". People get way too tied up on those letters sometimes.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

If you want to get to the brass tax, field trials have one purpose besides our enjoyment of competition and comrodery, BREEDING! The breeding stock for the Labrador retriever came/come from field trial dogs. That's field trials in a nut shell. Of course there's backyard breeders that have no titled dogs in there breedings and show breeders that breed for looks only. But the primary purpose of FT's is to breed the most competitive, intelligent, and healthy retrievers possible. In today's game successful breeders are breeding for the type "B" dog (high prey drive, highly trainable, intelligent, compliant, biddable, level-headed dogs that love their work) The belligerent fire breathers, and low drive dogs are not the dogs that accumulate 100+/- points and win nationals. Of course there are anomalies with any breeding but for the most part we want consistent performers that are physically sound and compliant easy to train retrievers that can mark a bird. Running field trial bred dogs in HT would be a good idea if it was a type "B" or "C" dog. The health of the animal should be considered as well, look for a pedigree that has healthy lineage and has the temperament that can be controlled at a HT environment and a duck blind. I guess my question is why buy a thoroughbred for trail riding or packing in the hills when you could buy a quarter horse where they would excel much better at the task at hand? My next question would be, what is the percentage of MH dogs that are worthy of contributing to the existing working/performance Labrador gene pool?


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

jeff evans said:


> If you want to get to the brass tax, field trials have one purpose besides our enjoyment of competition and comrodery, BREEDING! The breeding stock for the Labrador retriever came/come from field trial dogs. That's field trials in a nut shell. Of course there's backyard breeders that have no titled dogs in there breedings and show breeders that breed for looks only. But the primary purpose of FT's is to breed the most competitive, intelligent, and healthy retrievers possible. In today's game successful breeders are breeding for the type "B" dog (high prey drive, highly trainable, intelligent, compliant, biddable, level-headed dogs that love their work) The belligerent fire breathers, and low drive dogs are not the dogs that accumulate 100+/- points and win nationals. Of course there are anomalies with any breeding but for the most part we want consistent performers that are physically sound and compliant easy to train retrievers that can mark a bird. Running field trial bred dogs in HT would be a good idea if it was a type "B" or "C" dog. The health of the animal should be considered as well, look for a pedigree that has healthy lineage and has the temperament that can be controlled at a HT environment and a duck blind. I guess my question is why buy a thoroughbred for trail riding or packing in the hills when you could buy a quarter horse where they would excel much better at the task at hand? My next question would be, what is the percentage of MH dogs that are worthy of contributing to the existing working/performance Labrador gene pool?


Jeff everyone buys what they like. I like the fire breathers! I want drive and dirt in my face when I say "back". I hate a pig and I have seen far too many in the HT game since I have been involved. I have two young females out of top FT back grounds. They are two opposite dogs, one a fire breather and one laid back with good drive. The fire breather is much nicer to train, I can run all day long, do water blinds most would never attempt, hunt her, and she wants more. She also sleeps in bed with me, and is a complete house dog, quiet in the house, when the guns are out it is business. I have found this to be true with most all of the so-called fire breathers. 

Each wants the type of dog they enjoy. Nick of Time Lone Ranger throws fire breathers, my bitch is heavy line bred on him, and I don't think he did to bad at the FT game either, he sired the NFC Hunter's Run Boo Boo the sire of my bitch, so I don't the fire breathers don't win.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

You go with what you know. If you don't know, you go with who you trust. If you don't have anyone you trust, you research your brains out. And no matter what you do, you cross your fingers.

My first field trial dogs:
- FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie (Zowie)
- FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker Power (Ace)
were littermates. Their sire was QAA, their dam was a hunting dog, but my pro owned the sire and trained the dam. If I had been a better handler, they would have been special. As it was Zowie was a finalist in the 2003 National Am

My next successful field trial dogs:
- FC/AFC Freeridin Vampire Slayer (Buffy) - was a puppy from a litter that my good friend Dave Harter had with his steady eddie bitch FC/AFC Call Me Yankee Doodle Dandy bred to a hot young male that Dave had judged, FC/AFC Creek Robber. She is the best FT dog I ever had. Terrible health - two blown cruciates, allergies, torsion, bad teeth (why I never bred her), but a great dog in the field. Also, the reason, why I look for problem solvers, not high rollers. Buffy was a finalist in the 2007 National Am

- FC/AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator (Mootsie). I had competed against FC/AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine in the derby with Zowie and in the All Age Stakes with Zowie and Ace. I pre-Nationaled with Judy and Kweezy before the 2003 National Am, and told Judy, I wanted a puppy if she ever bred her. She did - to Code Blue.
I liked Cody, but Kweezy more. That led to Mootsie, who I got to the 9th series twice of the National Am, but could not make it to the 10th. That led to the repeat breeding
- AFC Freeridin Maserati. Very talented, but never as focused as his sister. Double Header winner

I have been trying for years to come up with a replacement for Buffy and Mootsie.

I think I may have one coming up. Freeridin Miss Kitty. Kitty was a repeat breeding of FC/AFC Small Craft Advisory to AFC Day's End Maple Creek Sugar. I spoke to Dennis Bath, Jimmie Darnell, and other people I trusted all of whom told me that the dogs from the first breeding were promising. So, I got Kitty. She won a Q a few weeks before she turned 2, an Amateur a few weeks after she turned 2, and I think will be consistently competitive in a year or so.

All of the above dogs correspond to my theory that: You go with what you know. If you don't know, you go with who you trust.

But, I have also washed out several dogs in the past three years that fit that theory

Ali to QAA bitch my pro trained (donated to Retrieving Freedom, because I was concerned about intermittent lameness- seemed like cruciate)
Creek Robber to FC/AFC bitch (not enough desire)
FC/AFC to FC/AFC (not enough desire)
FC/AFC to FC/AFC (health issues)
FC/AFC to FC/AFC (repeat breeding)(not enough brains)
FC/AFC to FC/AFC (not enough bottom)
FC/AFC to well bred bitch (repeat breeding, high recommendations)(clammer)

I can already anticipate my critics. All of the dogs were raised in the home, not in a kennel environment. All of the dogs were nice around the home. Most of them went to hunting homes and are doing well. Some went to my friends and are members of their families. 

FT are demanding physically. I believe that if you experience health problems with a young dog, you are inviting problems as the dog ages. (I have gone through 6 cruciate surgeries, so I am very leery of lameness in the rear leg). So, if I sense physical issues, I typically pull the dog from training. 

I don't like training that can't think their way out of trouble and I don't think dogs that can't problem solve are very competitive at the highest levels. So, if I don't have a good problem solver, I pull the dog from training.

I think that I could have competed with most of the dogs that I washed out. 

But, they would not have met the standard set by Buffy and Mootsie. And that's what I am seeking. 

I am looking for another Buffy or Mootsie. Both were fabulous competitors in their prime. Very different in their styles and mannerisms. But, both excellent markers, good team players, and excellent problem solvers. Under the right circumstances, I could have won a National with either one. A And I almost did with Buffy in 2007. 

Maybe other FT competitors want the Steve Martin "wild and crazy" type dogs. Not me, I am looking for the dog who knows how to stay out of trouble - in training and in competition - and find the birds. 

They are awfully hard to find. But, I stick with You go with what you know. If you don't know, you go with who you trust. If you don't have anyone you trust, you research your brains out. And no matter what you do, you cross your fingers.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Did the person who gave you advice have pups for sale? now, or ever? sounds like it


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

I think too much emphasis is put on a firebreathing dogs' sire & dam.

Poor line manners are not all that common in FT's anymore. I'm geussing that HTs' have at least as many poorly behaved dogs.

I attribute it more to training than genes. Find the potential for intelligence and desire for birds.

It can take you alot further.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Scott Adams said:


> I think too much emphasis is put on a firebreathing dogs' sire & dam.
> 
> .


The wild ones are fun to watch. Not so fun to run.


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Ted Shih said:


> You go with what you know. If you don't know, you go with who you trust. If you don't have anyone you trust, you research your brains out. And no matter what you do, you cross your fingers.
> 
> My first field trial dogs:
> - FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie (Zowie)
> ...


Thanks for the insight! Man your friends must love it when you wash out a dog. They get a highly trained dog to go hunt with without having to train it up to that level.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> Did the person who gave you advice have pups for sale? now, or ever? sounds like it


Yes but barely. Does a litter maybe once every 3-4 years just to satisfy their own needs. They usually lose money cause they invest so much in the health of the dam etc. and their pups go to solid HT homes and are quite successful @ that game.

More I learn about my prospect the more excited I get


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

1Tulip. "Yes but barely. Does a litter maybe once every 3-4 years just to satisfy their own needs. They usually lose money cause they invest so much in the health of the dam etc. and their pups go to solid HT homes and are quite successful @ that game." I sent you a PM regarding this breeder and this does NOT fit his description. Check with some of the Utah people on here. He breeds several litters per year.That's all I'm going to say.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> You go with what you know. If you don't know, you go with who you trust. If you don't have anyone you trust, you research your brains out. And no matter what you do, you cross your fingers.




Don't know who or what critics you're anticipating, Ted, but I appreciate the h*ll out of your insights - thanks for going on at length in sharing them.

MG


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## Duckquilizer (Apr 4, 2011)

crackerd said:


> Don't know who or what critics you're anticipating, Ted, but I appreciate the h*ll out of your insights - thanks for going on at length in sharing them.
> 
> MG[/FONT][/SIZE]


Agreed!!! That was an EXCELLENT post.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Ted Shih said:


> The wild ones are fun to watch. Not so fun to run.


Very true.

At what ages did you decide to place each of the dogs you washed out? The earlier you can make the decision, the better, but you don't want to give up too early.


Thanks!

Steve


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

I guess I have a different outlook at this subject....

If your wanting to play the field trial game then buy pups out of purely FT litters. However if you wanting to play the HT game be careful with pure FT litters. Some may be entirely to HOT for what your looking for. You may want to look for a nice HT dog bred to a FC AFC Sire. Make sure you know the temperament of the dogs your buying pups out of. For example... you don't want a pup directly out of Cosmo to run hunt test with. How ever they are very talented but an absolute handful at the line. Which can cause major problems in the hunt test game. 

Buying a pup directly out of HT stock maybe more along the lines of what a HT person would do well with. For example... buying a pup out of a GRHRCH MH x GRHRCH MH lets you know you have a very talented and trainable litter. A pup that is less likely to be a maniac. Possibly easier to handle especially for a new AM. 

The most important thing is to know the sire and dam your buying a pup out of. The old saying "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" is very true in most breedings. If your buying a pup out of 2 fire breathers then your going to get a crazy fire breather. Not exactly new AM friendly. 

I've been blessed to train a wide variety of dogs with all different personalities. Just saying some are more user friendly than others. This is just my .02

Whatever you bought don't let anyone rain on your parade. Just enjoy the wonderful animal your blessed to have.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> The wild ones are fun to watch. Not so fun to run.


I have one now that's even less fun to live with.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Trykon said:


> I guess I have a different outlook at this subject....
> 
> If your wanting to play the field trial game then buy pups out of purely FT litters. However if you wanting to play the HT game be careful with pure FT litters. Some may be entirely to HOT for what your looking for. You may want to look for a nice HT dog bred to a FC AFC Sire. Make sure you know the temperament of the dogs your buying pups out of. For example... you don't want a pup directly out of Cosmo to run hunt test with. How ever they are very talented but an absolute handful at the line. Which can cause major problems in the hunt test game.


I think you are promoting a myth. The field trialers that I know who are consistently competitive are not looking for wild and crazy fire breathers


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Trykon said:


> I guess I have a different outlook at this subject....
> 
> If your wanting to play the field trial game then buy pups out of purely FT litters. However if you wanting to play the HT game be careful with pure FT litters. Some may be entirely to HOT for what your looking for. You may want to look for a nice HT dog bred to a FC AFC Sire. Make sure you know the temperament of the dogs your buying pups out of. For example... you don't want a pup directly out of Cosmo to run hunt test with. *How ever they are very talented but an absolute handful at the line.* Which can cause major problems in the hunt test game.


That is a stereotype that many choose to perpetuate, when in reality they have never seen or handled a Cosmo sired dog...sure Cosmo has thrown some fire breathers,but to put all his offspring into that category is not fair or accurate...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Lol.. These threads are funny. There is some sort of insinuation that if a dog has a hunt test title it will produce better mannered pups because they haven't run any field trials in two generations. What a heaping load of U-KNOW-WHAT!!!! 

I know some butt-hat's that pass around the same story. "you don't want to breed to those crazy field trial dogs, you need to breed to a Master National Titled HT dog because it proves they're calmer and better pets"...


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

My two field trial bred labs are guaranteed to be inside right now asleep on the couch. My HT bred lab can't be left alone in the house. She is too busy hunting for food. The absolute wildest lab I have ever seen in my life, no doubt, was a British bred lab that was bought as a pup for $2,500. The sorriest, laziest, poor excuse for a retriever is one of the FT bred labs that I'm sure is asleep on the couch in the house right now, the other one is just learning from the master.

The moral of the story, is the hyper active FT stereo type is mostly bull. There is a lot more to the actual breeding lines than to the competition they run. I can name spastic lines and calm lines that run in any game, including ones with titles from FC/AFC to MNH to GRHRCH. Even with that, you are still rolling the dice.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> I think you are promoting a myth. The field trialers that I know who are consistently competitive are not looking for wild and crazy fire breathers


Second this.
In fact many times, a dog like that gets the label..A LOT OF WORK. Translating from pro speak...that is not a good thing. 
Yes, you need drive. But drive alone is not nearly enough. It just isn't. 

Why wouldn't the traits needed in a good trial dog, make a good HT dog? Talent, health, brains, trainabilty..
Don't fall for tired, old, stereotypes. Get the best pup you can get. From parents that are themselves... quality animals.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Trykon said:


> I guess I have a different outlook at this subject....
> *
> If your wanting to play the field trial game then buy pups out of purely FT litters*. However if you wanting to play the HT game be careful with pure FT litters. Some may be entirely to HOT for what your looking for. You may want to look for a nice HT dog bred to a FC AFC Sire. Make sure you know the temperament of the dogs your buying pups out of. For example... you don't want a pup directly out of Cosmo to run hunt test with. *How ever they are very talented but an absolute handful at the line*. Which can cause major problems in the hunt test game.
> 
> .


Amazing how one sterotype gets noticed & commented on but the other never gets mentioned, both are stereotypes both with grains of truth, yet both generalizations and incorrect. FC dogs can produce calmness, HT dogs can produce FT competitors (several FT competitors out of untitled or HT titled dogs, wait I'm sure their all FT lineage-lines way back, heck go far enough back they were probably all also conformation-agility dock diving, St-John Dog Labradors . The lines are so close on most HT-FT breeding's they're practically kissing cousins if not siblings. Performance dogs are performance dogs because they preform, we accomplish nothing by continuing these little tifts btw FT-HT, except hurt both sports. Give me a dog that wins consistently in any venue and I will be just as happy if I bought it from the crem-de-lah creme FT line, or paid $300 for it out of a BYB in the penny-saver. All dogs look good with big ribbons, plaques, plates, whether their camo, gold, rainbow or blue 

And yes I'm pot-stirring I just got back from MT, no internet battles to fight when your throwing birds and the i-phone doesn't work


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Some of the worst I've ever seen come through the kennel here have been show labs. They are taught to stand in one spot and that's about the extent of their training. If you don't have a cookie in your pocket you may as well go yell with your head in a bucket of water.


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## Moose Mtn (May 23, 2013)

These posts make me smile.. We see the same thing in Barrel Racing horses....The Futurity Bloodlines Vs The pro rodeo type horses... and God Forbid we see a crossover.

The (gasp) HT dog we are running is exactally what we want.... A fire breathing "high drive" fly thru the feild, and often over the top of the water... Yet she has focus and a calmness about her. 

She is one of those Hybrid lines of FT and HT

Our trainer said that she had all of the promise in the world to be a FT dog if we so desired, but we opted for the HT game as it fits our lifestyles and goals for the dog......I want her home on a couch and hunting the water with hubby.... and while a litter or 2 will be fun... the goal is not what will her pups sell for. I have no doubt that down the road... after a few MN's the value of any pups she may have will be more than enough to offset a stud fee and hassle of a litter... and the joy of owning her is worth more than that.

This is not meant as a condemnation of those that chose to FT their dogs.. just a mention that not all owners want to FT their dog... and I dont think it is a reflection of the quality of the dog......

But then again...I run a "futurity bloodline" barrel horse in barrel races beyond futurities... I appreciate his raw talent....and love that horse for what he is.. not necessarily what he was bred to be.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

I grew up with a retired barrel racing horse. Worked a cutting horse ranch that had two horses in the top 3 in the world over the course of a couple years. Night and day difference in animal and training. Not unlike retrievers, a top level cutting horse washout isn't a pleasant horse for a novice to ride. Same holds true with a upper level field trial washout. Takes someone who knows how to handle and work with the dog to enjoy it. Wash outs are a little more expensive in the horse world. Makes dog training and trading look like a peanut farm. Futurity was held where I worked one year. Some folks think the dog trucks that roll into town are fancy..lol.


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## Moose Mtn (May 23, 2013)

No doubt that there was a big difference, and comparing a cutter to a Barrel horse is like comparing agility and Field trial... And I dont think I was clear.. I was speaking of Barrel Futurities... so, same dicipline.. different types of competition.

I just think so much depends on the dog itself and its life experience.. I have seen easy-peasy to handle FT dogs, and HT dogs that are to be handled by a pro only... My dog is currently in training with a pro (Dan Keilty of Marksalot) 

So I wouldnt say it is necessarily the type or level of training that defines how much fun they are....but the dogs personality and its life experience. 

I have seen 2 siblings from a dog litter, and fullsiblings in the horse world... turn out to be two different beasts in drive, want to and finesse....mostly depends on whos hands they ended up in! 



Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> I grew up with a retired barrel racing horse. Worked a cutting horse ranch that had two horses in the top 3 in the world over the course of a couple years. Night and day difference in animal and training. Not unlike retrievers, a top level cutting horse washout isn't a pleasant horse for a novice to ride. Same holds true with a upper level field trial washout. Takes someone who knows how to handle and work with the dog to enjoy it. Wash outs are a little more expensive in the horse world. Makes dog training and trading look like a peanut farm. Futurity was held where I worked one year. Some folks think the dog trucks that roll into town are fancy..lol.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Would l someone please to post a 3 generation pedigree of a 3xMNH that is not loaded up with FT dogs 

john


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## leemac (Dec 7, 2011)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Makes dog training and trading look like a peanut farm. .


You haven't priced a 8360R John Deere lately have you?;-)

Field trialing pointers is more expensive than Labs or Horse shows. You've got to have the dog, the horse, the rig to haul them and several thousand acres of training grounds!


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

leemac said:


> You haven't priced a 8360R John Deere lately have you?;-)
> 
> Field trialing pointers is more expensive than Labs or Horse shows. You've got to have the dog, the horse, the rig to haul them and several thousand acres of training grounds!


yeah but a $3,000 gaited horse works just fine and you're are paying about $600 month for training in the mid west and a top bred pointing dog costs about $1,000. Hauling horses around and dogs to compete is obviously more $$

world class cutting horses sell for WAAAAYYY more than any little NAFC dog. Not to mention the training facilities. Construction on the place I worked cost over $25M....And you have to keep cattle for practice. You don't work cutting horses with a 2 year old steer so, they are always coming and going. Have to have appropriate stalls to match the value of the horse... 

no comparison.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Would l someone please to post a 3 generation pedigree of a 3xMNH that is not loaded up with FT dogs
> 
> john


bingo!!!!!


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Would l someone please to post a 3 generation pedigree of a 3xMNH that is not loaded up with FT dogs
> 
> john


GRHRCH magnolias hammerin hank MNH


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Trykon said:


> > Originally Posted by john fallon
> > Would l someone please to post a 3 generation pedigree of a 3xMNH that is not loaded up with FT dogs
> >
> > john
> ...


Yes there is Hank, who is, as I understand it, a handsome 75 # Yellow MNH and a *6th Generation *GRHRCH... and, with the exception of Ford/LeanMac in his three generation pedigree, you have to go back a few more generations(4th and 5th) to uncover the FT breedings behind him. 
Is he a MNH3?

And yes there might be s *few* more .But... The point of the OP's question was, can one play the HT game with FT breed dogs? 
The answer of course is a resounding yes. With some of the common sense caveats expressed by others earlier in this thread, *you can do so at the highest level*.

john


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

labsforme said:


> 1Tulip. "Yes but barely. Does a litter maybe once every 3-4 years just to satisfy their own needs. They usually lose money cause they invest so much in the health of the dam etc. and their pups go to solid HT homes and are quite successful @ that game." I sent you a PM regarding this breeder and this does NOT fit his description. Check with some of the Utah people on here. He breeds several litters per year.That's all I'm going to say.


Nope. Sorry for the confusion. The person who does the breedings every 4 years or so is a HT breeder. Different people.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> Some of the worst I've ever seen come through the kennel here have been show labs. They are taught to stand in one spot and that's about the extent of their training. If you don't have a cookie in your pocket you may as well go yell with your head in a bucket of water.


Oh boy... now you're about to start a fight! This is one dichotomy in the breed that does make a big, big difference. That train has left the station. No getting it back.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Yes there is Hank, who is, as I understand it, a handsome 75 # Yellow MNH and a *6th Generation *GRHRCH... and, with the exception of Ford/LeanMac in his three generation pedigree, you have to go back a few more generations(4th and 5th) to uncover the FT breedings behind him.
> Is he a MNH3?
> 
> And yes there might be s *few* more .But... The point of the OP's question was, can one play the HT game with FT breed dogs?
> ...


Why are you hung up on the MNH3 so much? 


/Paul


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't get the supposed different between a FT and HT dog in the first place. They more or less have to do all the same tasks, just at shorter distances. 

The standard in FT by nature of competition is MUCH higher, so why would anyone thing a HT title held more water than an FC-AFC?

Common sense sometimes leaves the discussion when people have agendas. In this case, like I said, someone probably breeds HT titled dogs.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

This is just plain wrong. How many Cosmo sired dogs have trained? I have 4 dogs--Ali bred to a. Shaq bitch, Ford bred to a Chopper bitch, a shaq make that will run the grand soon and an AFC ready male out of a bitch that us straight hunt test lines. 3 of these dogs are very simple to handle and they want to do right. They are all talente as well. One of the four isless talented and hell to deal with. He happens to have hunt test lines in his ped. It's a pure bs myth and my guess is you have had very few well need FT bred dogs in your kennel.


Trykon said:


> I guess I have a different outlook at this subject....
> 
> If your wanting to play the field trial game then buy pups out of purely FT litters. However if you wanting to play the HT game be careful with pure FT litters. Some may be entirely to HOT for what your looking for. You may want to look for a nice HT dog bred to a FC AFC Sire. Make sure you know the temperament of the dogs your buying pups out of. For example... you don't want a pup directly out of Cosmo to run hunt test with. How ever they are very talented but an absolute handful at the line. Which can cause major problems in the hunt test game.
> 
> ...


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Some of the responses of comparing HT dogs to FT dogs sound like the debates on which load of alfalfa to buy and in what quantity. First, second or third cutting? First might be a little hot, second will be good but, we could mix a little first with the third which is cheaper and almost get the same result as the second..


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Trykon said:


> I guess I have a different outlook at this subject....
> 
> If your wanting to play the field trial game then buy pups out of purely FT litters. However if you wanting to play the HT game be careful with pure FT litters. Some may be entirely to HOT for what your looking for. You may want to look for a nice HT dog bred to a FC AFC Sire. Make sure you know the temperament of the dogs your buying pups out of. For example... you don't want a pup directly out of Cosmo to run hunt test with. How ever they are very talented but an absolute handful at the line. Which can cause major problems in the hunt test game.
> 
> ...


Trykon, I don't understand how someone can say "That's a Field Trial dog". What does that mean? Its the training that the dog receives that decides what game it can be successful at. Most "Field Trial" washout become MH's or HRCH's and hunt test pro love to have them. Being a fire breather has nothing to do with that animal being a field trial dog. To win trials the animal has to be very well trained and needs intelligence as well as trainability. I think its very fair to say that *most* successful trial trained dogs wouldnt have a problem passing a Master or Finished test with just a couple weeks of shorter concept training. I also think its fair to say that *most* hunt test only trained (HRCH/MH) dogs won't make it out of the first series in and Open All Age Event only because they are going to face factors and distances that they must be accustomed to since they were babies. In a trial dogs see everything from 400 yard marks to 20 yard marks. It's the game that made great retrievers for all sports. Another thing, Cosmo pups make great HT dogs if you want style and train for that game. Do some research on that, I have one and as a very novice trainer she taught me to be a better handler as well as teacher (HRCH/MH/Qualifying Placements before 3 years old). I went with Cosmo as a stud because of the intelligence he throws in his offspring. Most all breedings today are great, focus on training not the stereotyping. The reality is that our animals are going to be what they are because their training.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Why are you hung up on the MNH3 so much?
> 
> 
> /Paul



3x Master National Hunter was the benchmark I proffered in my post .In answer Trykon posted GRHRCH magnolias hammerin hank *MNH *
as a dog that met the criteria of having qualified for and finished with a pass 3 MN's. I was about to take the post at face value, since either way it mattered not in the point of my post, but in the case of Hank though, since I_ think _it meant him also being in the HOF, it was more out of curiosity than any thing....

Will someone please post link to a picture/website or just a picture of this talented animal?

john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> 3x Master National Hunter was the benchmark I proffered in my post .In answer Trykon posted GRHRCH magnolias hammerin hank *MNH *
> as a dog that met the criteria of having qualified for and finished with a pass 3 MN's. I was about to take the post at face value, since either way it mattered not in the point of my post, but in the case of Hank though, since I_ think _it meant him also being in the HOF, it was more out of curiosity than any thing....
> 
> Will someone please post link to a picture/website or just a picture of this talented animal?
> ...


To quote TJ Lindbroom discussing his first experience with HT's after National Open Winner McGuffy "This Master title is tough. I have to go to all these tests and in a FT 4 series is just one series in a hunt test." 

/Paul


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I would like to pose a question to those proposing tempering the balls to the wall aspect of the temperment of the FC AFC fire breather, (we will call this trait having "black marbles") sire by an outcross to a biddable (white marbles)HRCH MH dam.

If one were to breed a "black marble" sire to a "white marble" dam would *some* of the pups have a "grey marble" temperment or would some simply have a "white marble" temperment and others a "black marble"one?????? 

john


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

john fallon said:


> I would like to pose a question to those proposing tempering the balls to the wall aspect of the temperment of the FC AFC fire breather, (we will call this trait having "black marbles") sire by an outcross to a biddable (white marbles)HRCH MH dam.
> 
> If one were to breed a "black marble" sire to a "white marble" dam would *some* of the pups have a "grey marble" temperment or would some simply have a "white marble" temperment and others a "black marble"one??????
> 
> john


Leave the genetics Q&A to the Silver Lab thread..


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Paul "Happy" Gilmore said:


> > Originally Posted by john fallon
> > I would like to pose a question to those proposing tempering the balls to the wall aspect of the temperment of the FC AFC fire breather, (we will call this trait having "black marbles") sire by an outcross to a biddable (white marbles)HRCH MH dam.
> >
> > If one were to breed a "black marble" sire to a "white marble" dam would some of the pups have a "grey marble" temperment or would some simply have a "white marble" temperment and others a "black marble"one??????
> ...



I don't think so......Very germane to the thread.

john


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

John, Are you losing your marbles?  As you know , you get what you get. Can have a mix of the 3 temperments you have listed in any litter. The likelihood of talent is more preponent in a FT/FT breeding.IMHO

Jeff


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## Jerry Beil (Feb 8, 2011)

Wouldn't you agree that there are a number of very good Field Trial dogs that would be a handful for a less experienced trainer? And, that some FT washouts might have been an easier dog for that less experienced trainer to handle? Some FT breedings would not be recommended to a less experienced trainer looking for a dog he can run in hunt tests - not because the pup isn't likely to be more than capable of succeeding in the HT Venue, but because the dog is more than the trainer is likely to enjoy handling and training. 

It doesn't seem like it matters so much HT or FT breeding, what matters is the specific dogs in question. If both of those dogs are the kind of dog you want your dog to be, that seems like a pretty good start.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Some dogs that can barely make it to the food dish are too much for some handlers... No matter what game you're playing. Just sayin. It's not always the dog. Some handlers are too high strung or too laid back.


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

john fallon said:


> 3x Master National Hunter was the benchmark I proffered in my post .In answer Trykon posted GRHRCH magnolias hammerin hank *MNH *
> as a dog that met the criteria of having qualified for and finished with a pass 3 MN's. I was about to take the post at face value, since either way it mattered not in the point of my post, but in the case of Hank though, since I_ think _it meant him also being in the HOF, it was more out of curiosity than any thing....
> 
> Will someone please post link to a picture/website or just a picture of this talented animal?
> ...


Hank is a very nice dog. I think he probably could of been your "Field Trial Dog Stereotype" if that was his owners goal. He is very much respected in my book. Nice dog.


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

So out of my whole post people picked out examples of what I said and missed the whole point....

Know the dogs your buying pups out of. Have an understanding of their temperaments. 


As for the Cosmo dogs comment.... It's no freaking secret that Cosmo dogs are crazy at the line. If you have some directly out of Cosmo that isn't you have an incredible animal. Cosmo dogs are extremely talented I would never argue against that. 

Also as for me downing any FT dogs you miss read. I was only referring to a new handler running dogs and what may or may not want. 


As for The comments on FT vs HT dogs... Who cares? They are trained to do different things. You take a nice hunt test dog to an open you'll be crushed. Just as if you take an open dog to the grand. He'll be like a fish out of water. So is your point in comparing work?... It takes a lot of dog to make an FC. I'm just saying a FCxFC breeding may be to much dog for a new trainer.


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm not stereotyping FT dogs. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I own dogs out of FC dogs and love them. 

A FC or AFC dog is an incredible animal


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

LOL....Please tell me what the lottery numbers are the next Wednesday.....If in anything....What you do, if anything, will forecast the future....If you know, that then I will like to call you....


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

It's not the breedings as much as the person running, or not running the show. I don't see how that is so tough to grasp. How many dogs sired by Cosmo have you trained? How many dogs out of two fc's have you trained? Wild and crazy dogs can come from any breeding. It's the trainers job to keen em in check. Fwiw I saw a dog sired by Cosmo at a field trial this previous fall. It was a statue at the line.


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

BJGatley said:


> LOL....Please tell me what the lottery numbers are the next Wednesday.....If in anything....What you do, if anything, will forecast the future....If you know, that then I will like to call you....


Lotto numbers are 55,69,12,74,49,01 Power Ball is 69.....partly sunny with a chance of showers...


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

BJGatley said:


> LOL....Please tell me what the lottery numbers are the next Wednesday.....If in anything....What you do, if anything, will forecast the future....If you know, that then I will like to call you....


Now you owe me $45 for shipping.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

OK....But I believe you miss the point....I too played and didn't.....Think about it.....If all dogs could......Then I wouldn't need to win the lottery, because of a sure hand....but what are the chances of that as in any thing else?????


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## WBF (Feb 11, 2012)

Funny Cosmo was one of the top 10 HRC studs back in like 2004. Produced several GRHRCH's. Produced 2 GRHRCH's when he was bred to NFTCH Rainbow Mollie who is directly out of 2xNAFC2xCNAFC FC AFC Lean Mac and FC ACF CFC Murphy Isn't Brown She's Black


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## shawninthesticks (Jun 13, 2010)

I still want my $45 ...I accept personnel checks


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

How dare you dispell a myth with facts.


WBF said:


> Funny Cosmo was one of the top 10 HRC studs back in like 2004. Produced several GRHRCH's. Produced 2 GRHRCH's when he was bred to NFTCH Rainbow Mollie who is directly out of 2xNAFC2xCNAFC FC AFC Lean Mac and FC ACF CFC Murphy Isn't Brown She's Black


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

LOL...OK....I won't debate....Please tell me where to send the monies....
Benny


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## Backwater (Jul 10, 2013)

Trykon said:


> So out of my whole post people picked out examples of what I said and missed the whole point....
> 
> Know the dogs your buying pups out of. Have an understanding of their temperaments.
> 
> ...


Just what exactly is "too much dog" a dog with too much desire to retrieve vs a pig on the line. Too much drive to do 400yd water blind while others quite 75 yrds out and pop 10 times,, to much dog to train all morning then jump into the boat the be the guide dog for the guided hunter, Then they see this high powered zFT dog retrive ducks they never heard could be done under any circumstances, Are we taking these kind of dog here? I desire and will bread for this fire breathers, they made me hppy and do thinhgs others couoc only watch,,,my hat's noff to the fire breathers their are in my sole!!


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## Trykon (Oct 22, 2007)

Backwater, did I say anything about what you want in a dog? No, I stated a new handler may not be ready for a fire breather. 

I seem to have forgotten why I keep to training and not posting on the net. Seems like everyone wants to argue over everything. I have better things to do. 

You guys have fun arguing. I'm out


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Let me go back to the original vignette that prompted my question. 

I am showing a heavily FT pedigree to a HT person (well respected. Pro trainer.) She says that generally, she believes the HT lines are very well developed and that increasingly proven to do superior work in HT's. Her knock on FT dogs was mostly about line manners (She was looking at the Chena River line and mentioned Chevez was a great producer, a very young FC but one of the most vocal dogs on line and that he threw this in his pups. In her view, the dog that can't be all settled down and all-business on the line is going to get docked seriously on points. And she sees the very vocal dogs as particularly deficient in a hunting context. Then too... I think she knows I am not terribly experienced and worries that I would be getting too much dog.

So... to narrow the question a bit... is it more or less likely that a FT breeding would be a monster on the line, whining and snorting and yiping when sent? I gather from what this pro told me her feeling is that they are and that that has been bred away from in the well established hunt test lines.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

1tulip said:


> So... to narrow the question a bit... is it more or less likely that a FT breeding would be a monster on the line, whining and snorting and yiping when sent? I gather from what this pro told me her feeling is that they are and that that has been bred away from in the well established hunt test lines.



What part of "you cannot make such broad generalizations" do you not understand?


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

1tulip said:


> Let me go back to the original vignette that prompted my question.
> 
> I am showing a heavily FT pedigree to a HT person (well respected. Pro trainer.) She says that generally, she believes the HT lines are very well developed and that increasingly proven to do superior work in HT's. Her knock on FT dogs was mostly about line manners (She was looking at the Chena River line and mentioned Chevez was a great producer, a very young FC but one of the most vocal dogs on line and that he threw this in his pups. In her view, the dog that can't be all settled down and all-business on the line is going to get docked seriously on points. And she sees the very vocal dogs as particularly deficient in a hunting context. Then too... I think she knows I am not terribly experienced and worries that I would be getting too much dog.
> 
> So... to narrow the question a bit... is it more or less likely that a FT breeding would be a monster on the line, whining and snorting and yiping when sent? I gather from what this pro told me her feeling is that they are and that that has been bred away from in the well established hunt test lines.


I'd be curios to know if this lady pro ever saw Chavez run? I don't remember him being crazy and vocal...  Nor were most of the Chena River dogs. Ripple was the wild one of the bunch. Sounds like pure stereotyping to me. Get the best breeding you can afford and train the hell out of the pup. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

I was really honest with the breeder and he identified a planned litter that he thought would be "too hot" for me. My criteria was pretty simple: A lot of starch and drive. One tough enough to want to do it again even if I messed him up. But at the same time, trainable enough for a rank amateur. He thought Nitro/Chena River would fill the bill.

As for HT dogs... I have issues with their marking but that's probably the fodder for another thread.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ted Shih said:


> What part of "you cannot make such broad generalizations" do you not understand?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What he said!


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## Scott Adams (Jun 25, 2003)

Jerry Beil said:


> Wouldn't you agree that there are a number of very good Field Trial dogs that would be a handful for a less experienced trainer? And, that some FT washouts might have been an easier dog for that less experienced trainer to handle? Some FT breedings would not be recommended to a less experienced trainer looking for a dog he can run in hunt tests - not because the pup isn't likely to be more than capable of succeeding in the HT Venue, but because the dog is more than the trainer is likely to enjoy handling and training.
> 
> It doesn't seem like it matters so much HT or FT breeding, what matters is the specific dogs in question. If both of those dogs are the kind of dog you want your dog to be, that seems like a pretty good start.


The issue is not "what venue will the dog be better suited for?" Nor is it, "Is this dog too much for the new trainer to deal with?"
The so called "FT bred dogs" have demonstrated trainability and natural talent, in the most difficult testing environment that tests trainability and natural talent. The line manners stuff is 99.9% training, or lack of.
The dog that a new person needs is one with trainability, intelligence and natural talent & desire (Most important IMO) This dog will be the most forgiving of newbie mistakes. It will challenge a new trainer to better themselves. It will make a new trainer work to keep up.
A lesser dog will make you pay a big price for mistakes. It will get you mired in issues and stop your progress.
I was told by mentors when I started" A good dog will teach you far more than a so-so dog" What they meant was "Get rid of meat head and get something worth your time"
A smart trainer buys the most dog he/she can afford, whether it is to be a hunting dog, or a national champion.
This advice was in JLF's book printed more than 60 yrs ago. Still true today.


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

I think there is such thing as too much dog for an average newbie trainer...... I am not going to lump all a ethers in the same lump, I am not lumping all newbies in the same lump, nor all ft line or ht lines but.......

Know yourself and how is the dog going to be trained. I am hard headed, I read too many books about not taking spirit out of a pup when I got my first one. I ended up with a fire breather in part because it was his nature, but in large part because I groomed the "spirit" in him more then obedience early on...... The things that saved us as a team, making us pretty darn good at hunt tests in his prime was that he has huge drive, is a quick learner and a problem solver....... And most importantly was very forgiving of my mistakes. There were loads of times that I made a serious mistake wi a poor timed correction and and as long as there was a bumper at the end he was fine with it, and re learning meant more bumpers so that was fine too..... I have enjoyed the heck out of this dog, blaze of glory or crash and burn was kinda our motto. Not saying he would have been a good dog for most newbies, but I needed one that was as hard headed as I am in order to be able. To forgive the mistakes......

Middle dog was EIC effected that I did not get along with. We eeked out a MHR in NAHRA, mostly because I kept running her. Incredible marker, holds. Grudges, not a thinker, a worrier. I don't get along with her well, I am probably her least favorite person in the family, but she sleeps on my six year old daughters bed and picks up ducks in junior stakes like a champ for her. The tw of them qualified for and at the NAHRA regional while Paige was four. Easy to handle on what she does well, but a dog that does not like being outside her comfort zone.

Young dog, plenty adequate marker, plenty adequate drive, but is an ABSOLUTE team player. Not as forgiving as her daddy, dog 1, was in training, but not nearly as hard to control. The owner of her dam says "a Ferrari is great, but most ametures need a Cadillac." This dog takes less correction but needs less. I do think she is a thinker, perhaps a worrier at times. A great dog for where I am in life right now. A dog that would have been an easier first dog for most people, but would have been a horrible first dog for me, I don't think she would have taken all my screw ups.

My point is, that a great dog for you, might not be for someone else. Realistically, any dog with a couple of M or F''s anywhere close in the pedigree will not be the weak link on the team. Obviously there are dogs that took more to get the titles and that is where homework comes in, but beyond talent and drive and all of that you have to know what type of personality you have and what type of trainer you honestly think you will be and get a dog that matches it. I had time with the first to work with him everyday, the you g one is lucky to get marks twice a week..... I made the comment at a ht once that if a dog can't move forward with 2-3 days a week, I don't want it, and if it can't maintain with one day a week I can't keep it. They looked at me like I was crazy. Sorry for the ramble, take home, know yourself and get the type of dog that fits your life and personality, not what someone tells you to get....


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

1tulip said:


> I was really honest with the breeder and he identified a planned litter that he thought would be "too hot" for me. My criteria was pretty simple: A lot of starch and drive. One tough enough to want to do it again even if I messed him up. But at the same time, trainable enough for a rank amateur. He thought Nitro/Chena River would fill the bill.
> 
> As for HT dogs... I have issues with their marking but that's probably the fodder for another thread.


ROFL oh I love a good joke. 

/Paul


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

For crying out loud stop generalizing. Any dog from any breeding can be a wild Indian, a slug, a poor marker, a great marker and everything in between. Buy the most well bred dog you can afford and train hard. Were talking dogs here not robots. Find a different pro to consult with while your at it.


1tulip said:


> I was really honest with the breeder and he identified a planned litter that he thought would be "too hot" for me. My criteria was pretty simple: A lot of starch and drive. One tough enough to want to do it again even if I messed him up. But at the same time, trainable enough for a rank amateur. He thought Nitro/Chena River would fill the bill.
> 
> As for HT dogs... I have issues with their marking but that's probably the fodder for another thread.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

1tulip said:


> Her knock on FT dogs was mostly about line manners (She was looking at the Chena River line and mentioned Chevez was a great producer, a very young FC but one of the most vocal dogs on line and that he threw this in his pups. In her view, the dog that can't be all settled down and all-business on the line is going to get docked seriously on points. And she sees the very vocal dogs as particularly deficient in a hunting context. Then too... I think she knows I am not terribly experienced and worries that I would be getting too much dog.


One of the calmest and most consistent HT dogs I know is by Chena River Chavez. You really can't make a generalization--even within the same litter the pups will often be very different.


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> One of the calmest and most consistent HT dogs I know is by Chena River Chavez. You really can't make a generalization--even within the same litter the pups will often be very different.


See... you guys are great. How in the heck can someone get all this information and variance of views if not in a community like this. I'm stuck out here in the middle of Work-80-Hours-a-Week-Land and can't travel around to HT's and FT's like I'd prefer and haven't had a chance to see dogs run. 

The dog I got 4 years ago was HT bred from a good breeder... but not a lot of fun to work with. But I was switching jobs and wasn't ready for the commitment so it's not entirely her fault. Now I'll try a FT pup... but I'll also have more time to enjoy him/her. And while I'm waiting for the gestation and early puppyhood, I'll study hard and try to get ready to roll when he/she arrives home.


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## Handler in Training (Jun 18, 2013)

The answer of course is a resounding yes. With some of the *common sense *caveats expressed by others earlier in this thread, *you can do so at the highest level*.

john[/QUOTE]

Fallon, I knew you had the potential to use logical thinking and, dare I say, common sense to formulate a very nice reply to make your point. Good job!


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

1tulip said:


> Let me go back to the original vignette that prompted my question.
> 
> I am showing a heavily FT pedigree to a HT person (well respected. Pro trainer.) She says that generally, she believes the HT lines are very well developed and that increasingly proven to do superior work in HT's. Her knock on FT dogs was mostly about line manners (She was looking at the Chena River line and mentioned Chevez was a great producer, a very young FC but one of the most vocal dogs on line and that he threw this in his pups. In her view, the dog that can't be all settled down and all-business on the line is going to get docked seriously on points. And she sees the very vocal dogs as particularly deficient in a hunting context. Then too... I think she knows I am not terribly experienced and worries that I would be getting too much dog.
> 
> So... to narrow the question a bit... is it more or less likely that a FT breeding would be a monster on the line, whining and snorting and yiping when sent? I gather from what this pro told me her feeling is that they are and that that has been bred away from in the well established hunt test lines.


Hmm! was going to stay away from this thread with all it's stereo typing, generalizations, heresay, she said he said that they said, etc. Lets see now, I bred FC/AFC Mioaks Criquetpas (my bitch) to Chavez. None of the pups to my knowledge were described as noisy, vocal, etc. My bitch was out of Tank, she was a firebreather I guess by some definitions. The Criquet X Chavez breeding dogs mostly went to hunt tests homes and nonone complained about noisy, nutso, pups, they did say the dogs ran with much style.
A generation later one of those dogs did become a National Champion "Flip" . judged Flip on more then one occasion, had a lot of style could mark, not nutso or vocal, hmm! I did run firebreather Criquet in a couple of hunt tests she did receive couple of master passes, never finished her. Don't know or remember why. Her next breeding was to a firebreather I guess, FC/AFC Webshires Honest Abe. Two FC and or AFC/FC were produced from that litter including a Master Hunter and HRCH dog. I co owned the FC/AFC and owned the MH/HRCH dog QAA, retired, then got the hunt test titles. We made, trained, helped with training about 10 Master Hunters, one a FC/AFC and a MH (Master Hunter) all sired by firebreathers FC/AFC and mostly firebreather DAMS. All were well trained dogs not vocal and some even finished the Master National. I presently co-own a dog out of two firebreathers and he is a Master hunter too. I do like that "firebreather" word, used to call then stylish "groundpounders" ground shook dirt was thrown in your face and the sea parted when they entered water. They were all under control with good line manners and not vocal. Me thinks it is a limited sample I just did, but, at least it is hands on first hand knowledge, not some cockamaney GDG of he said she said they said and I know it is true,after reading it on the internet, it has to be true. I think there may be a just a few lurking here who are chuckling at this thread of who has the best hunt test Vrs Field trial breedings. My thoughts , just buy the best damn breeding you can afford, decide on the gender, and go for it hunt test or field trial!


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