# At what point is a dog "too old" to Force Fetch...



## Tim Fitzgerald (Jan 22, 2009)

I know that there are several talented trainers on this site and I have a dilema that I am needing some opinions on. I have a 5 yr old chocolate male 90 lbs bundle of power. Lets just say that he is a rescue dog that comes from a solid hunting pedigree with plenty of offspring that occupy blinds in the local area. When I got him (from someone that was going to take him to the shelter), upon the initial vet visit, they broke the news that he had heart worm and had it pretty bad. They were like do you want to put him down, I said "I dont think so", with that being said $500.00 and one year later, shooter is an awesome dog and a valued member of the family. My BLM is 12 now and chilling in the house easy chair after several hunting seasons that I was privileged to have shared with him. I would like to get shooter in the blind and maybe run him in some junior hunt tests. When I got shooter, he didnt know his name and had no obedience. That was not a problem for me as I was blessed to have been stationed on the west coast for a while(several years ago) and assisted a professional retriever trainer in my spare time. With that being said, shooter hits the water like a freight train, will do 100 yard singles but will not deliver to hand. I obviously know that this is a no go both in the test world and in the blind as well. I would give anything to see him realize his full potential but the whole force fetch thing I believe may be his sticking point. 

For a week now I have been patiently training him on the table and applying force with a simple ear pinch and getting him to hold.... He will eventually comply and accepts the training buck but drops it at will. I apply pressure and reinsert it and tell him to "hold". I was praying that after a week that he would show some sign of giving in to pressure and at least make some attempt to open his mouth for the buck at the begining of the training session , no way jose.....
Each training session begins with him and his mouth clamped shut refusing to open. Even with the ear pinch its not like he makes any attempt to connect the whole pressure on, pressure off idea (throughout the entire 10 min period). He is extremely hard headed but we love him to death and Im just wondering if my vision for him is just a pipe dream ?? Im starting to think that he is too old and too embedded in his ways to take through force fetching. But at the same time, I'm kind of refusing to give up on him. When I say give up, Im referencing the idea of hunting or testing him. He will continue to remain my bud regardless.

Please if anyone has any ideas of how to approach this I would be forever grateful...


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

I forced mine at almost three when I got into this. It took me about 2 weeks to get her to just crack her mouth open. Keep at it and be patient he should come around.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

I've force fetched client dogs as old as 4.


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

skeeter1 said:


> For a week now I have been patiently training him on the table and applying force *with a simple ear pinch* and getting him to hold.... He will eventually comply and accepts the training buck but drops it at will.


 It sounds to me like you skipped a step in the training. Before you apply force, you teach what you want from him.
Start out by putting the bumper in his mouth, no force, just put it in and say hold. In the first couple sessions with my dogs, I might only take it out of their mouth one time the entire 15-20 minutes. The rest of the time, they are holding it until I say drop. This is to teach them to accept my position as leader and them doing what I say. After they are holding the bumper really well, then you move on to a bit of force with the ear. Make sure that you really highlight the *Good*, which is the 2nd he grabs it and the pressure releases. Lots of praise. 

Definitely, the older the dog is, the harder it is to get through to them. But it can be done! Don't give up on him even after the hardest of days. I've been there with them older dogs and it is tough, but it can be accomplished with some amazing results. 

Good luck!

Abby
Trinity Oak Labs


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

you may need to back up from the training buck. put a glove on your hand and start with him holding your hand, lot of good boys here. get him used to putting stuff into his mouth, your hand. Then go back to your buck.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

And therein why is I think the traditional method of FF is [email protected] Tradition being: Introduction: Apply pressure, dog opens mouth to 'protest', place object in dogs mouth, stop pinch.

Many many dogs didn't read the damm book and don't know they're suppose to open their mouth when you "apply pressure".

Not opening their mouth is just ONE of many undesirable results some dogs exhibit using that method.

TEACH 'hold' using praise and repetition. Introduce pressure at non-threatening levels enforcing hold. Transition to fetch with gradually increasing levels of pressure and help the dog learn what the heck you're trying to do.


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

First dog I ever did by myself was a 5 yo. male lab. He took to it as quickly as any other dog that I've done since. Like others have said, you should have taught him the hold command first, then done force fetch.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I'm no pro and I've only force fetched 2 dogs, but I think those suggesting going back and teaching "hold" may be on the right track. You could buy "smart fetch" (book) or "fowl dogs 1" (DVD) for some help on this.


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## Certainty (Apr 17, 2008)

My Harry, a YLM I bought at the age of almost 5, was force fetched soon after. He has done some pretty good things in the 2 yrs since!


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2010)

I've done some 5-7's. Older dogs tend to be more difficult simply because they've lived a life outside of retrieving or pressure for some period of time. 

The advice you've been given is pretty much what I would recommend.

Don't give up, just take small steps, keep lessons short and use lots of praise when he does right. Use pressure properly and fairly. 

-K


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Alec Sparks said:


> And therein why is I think the traditional method of FF is [email protected] Tradition being: Introduction: Apply pressure, dog opens mouth to 'protest', place object in dogs mouth, stop pinch.
> 
> Many many dogs didn't read the damm book and don't know they're suppose to open their mouth when you "apply pressure".
> 
> ...


I stuck a bumper in front of her mouth and said hold and she didn't so she didn't read the book on the holding part either.
Apply pressure will help relax the jaw muscles then it's easier to place in the mouth then use word hold. Seemed to have worked for me.
Pressure can be either from and ear pinch, toe hitch, e-collar or the act of forcing the mouth open to insert the specific item to be held. What's the difference. I tried the method you use and it got me no where especially when it came to feathers. Once I use the ear pinch she understood exactly what was expected. I want them to know that if they are out at 100 yrds and even think about not picking up the bird that boogie man is gonna jump out of that little clump of grass and apply pressure. Just my .02


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## drakedogwaterfowl (Mar 27, 2009)

Visit this site, click on the link at the line, choose force hold 1. www.waterdogtv.com

There's also a lot more good videos on this site.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

metalone67 said:


> I stuck a bumper in front of her mouth and said hold and she didn't so she didn't read the book on the holding part either.
> Apply pressure will help relax the jaw muscles then it's easier to place in the mouth then use word hold. Seemed to have worked for me.
> Pressure can be either from and ear pinch, toe hitch, e-collar or the act of forcing the mouth open to insert the specific item to be held. What's the difference. I tried the method you use and it got me no where especially when it came to feathers. Once I use the ear pinch she understood exactly what was expected. I want them to know that if they are out at 100 yrds and even think about not picking up the bird that boogie man is gonna jump out of that little clump of grass and apply pressure. Just my .02





> Apply pressure will help relax the jaw muscles then it's easier to place in the mouth then use word hold.


Pain makes a dogs jaw relax? wow.

Please explain the canine psychological and physiological reasoning behind that statement.




> I want them to know that if they are out at 100 yrds and even think about not picking up the bird that boogie man is gonna jump out of that little clump of grass and apply pressure.


A WHOLE 100 yards?

Teaching hold generally requires the TRAINER to place the object in the dogs mouth. That alone can lead to some 'interesting' reactions in some dogs.

Sorry folks, I'm getting old and the filter is starting to come off. Depending on your perspective, pray it does or doesn't.


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## GilWlsn (Jan 18, 2008)

Haven't found one to old. The older dogs seem to catch on faster


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

Several responses on the right track. "Force training" to retrieve consists of several steps. The first is to TEACH hold. This is done manually, repetitively
with NO ear pinching. Don't start ear piching until you can have your dog carry a dummy for 5-10 minutes while following your commands for sit, stay here and heel, repeatedly. Teaching "hold" is just simple hard work. When dog drops dummy, say "NO", and replace dummy in mouth and say "HOLD" and tap lower jaw. This may take a week or two of daily sessions.
Think of it this way, we "force" dogs to "fetch" and to go ("back"). But we teach dogs to "hold". Later, approach real birds, first dead ones. the same way. If dog is properly "taught" and "forced", the real birds will take almost no time.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Alec Sparks said:


> Sorry folks, I'm getting old and the filter is starting to come off. Depending on your perspective, pray it does or doesn't.


Well I for one was hoping it would ........Sometimes, with the filter on, it's like trying to herd cats .......................You have more patience than me.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

40 years and I'm [hopefully] on the right track.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

labguy said:


> Well I for one was hoping it would ........Sometimes, with the filter on, it's like trying to herd cats .......................You have more patience than me.


Perhaps that's why I do what I do for a living?


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## Tim Fitzgerald (Jan 22, 2009)

Thanks guys and gals for those of you that took the time to READ the content with an open mind and offer constructive advice....and for the one that needs his ears scratched, heres a scratch


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Alec Sparks said:


> Pain makes a dogs jaw relax?.............
> Teaching hold generally requires the TRAINER to place the object in the dogs mouth..........
> Sorry folks, I'm getting old and the filter is starting to come off. Depending on your perspective, pray it does or doesn't.


Throw it to the floor Alec! We don’t need no stinking Filter!!!!!!!



Skeeter, as you can see there a couple schools of thought here. My gloved hand cuddle and praise offer to get the dog used to something in its mouth, my gloved hand. And the pinch um wicked hard and they will open their mouth to scream and bite you, and when they do pop a chunk of something in the mouth and say good dog. Now in fairness I do generalize a tad for effect. And both methods have been used on a lot of dogs. Personaly, if I were in your situation I would put a flat buckle collar on the dog and a leather glove on one of my hands. I would sit on the living room floor watching T.V. with the dog. Talking to the dog. I would hold the collar with the ungloved hand and pet the dog with the gloved hand. And slowly, calmly and patently, while watching T.V. get so I can put my gloved hand in the dogs mouth without if becoming stressed out. Next couple nights if that’s going well I take the glove off and hold the glove put it in and take it out. Then the glove back on the hand but holding a small training dowel. Just fun, calm loving hold…….. lots of good dog.

Your gonna get it done ether way. I have done both. I have an 11 year old 2 inch long scar of my left fore arm from one method. I don’t need any more.


.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> I have an 11 year old 2 inch long scar of my left fore arm from one method.


 
Collar was a little loose was it? Or was it you didn't have as good a hold on the collar as you thought?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Howard N said:


> Collar was a little loose was it? Or was it you didn't have as good a hold on the collar as you thought?


Just a little loose;-)
 and that bitch spun right around and sunk um in deep. In hind site, placing the dowel in my right hand down, making a fist and punching her square in the head did nothing to loosen her grip and probably just drove the canine deeper into the muscle.
BTW same session I learned, when the time comes to actually pinch an ear. Pinch the outside ear, the one away from you.
A scar received while working with dogs thread might be fun sometime.


.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Only got one scar, bout the same place as yours, left forearm on the inside. Hardly see it anymore.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Alec Sparks said:


> Pain makes a dogs jaw relax? wow.
> 
> Please explain the canine psychological and physiological reasoning behind that statement.
> 
> ...


You do it your way and I'll do mine. I'm sure your way is the only way, but if it works good for you.
As far as 100 yrds I hunt and 9 out of 10 my birds are dead within that range.
and yes when I apply pressure to my dogs ear you can see them slightly open when I first started, so maybe my dogs did read the damn book.


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

As a newbie only (FF 5 dogs) I highly recommand the gloved hand method to start with. I just went through hold conditioning with my dog and tried the glove method for the first time. I could feel her trying to hold my thumb with her teeth but still trying to push it out of her mouth with her tongue. To truely teach her what hold meant I needed to get first get her to calm her mouth and get rid of the mental resistance to having something she didn't want in her mouth. I used an NO!, HOLD! and praised her when she stopped resisting. Use a calm but firm voice. When lesson was understood holding a dowel was much easier.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

metalone67 said:


> You do it your way and I'll do mine. I'm sure your way is the only way, but if it works good for you.
> As far as 100 yrds I hunt and 9 out of 10 my birds are dead within that range.
> and yes when I apply pressure to my dogs ear you can see them slightly open when I first started, so maybe my dogs did read the damn book.


Your right that there are many different ways to get to the same place. 

I've heard of people using cattle prods to FF a dog but that doesn't mean, that with todays knowlege and understanding, it's the best way. 

Many of the older methods of training these retreivers would make most people cringe but that was how it was done back then because nobody knew any better. 

Today the methodogy is evolving and we're learning new methods and refining and improving the older ones. This approach makes for much more humane training methods, with less confrontation. It makes it easier for the dog to learn.

I think it's unfair to these dogs, for us as trainers, not to at least be open to learning newer better and less confrontational methods to get the most out of these incredible creatures.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

labguy said:


> Many of the older methods of training these retreivers would make most people cringe


Makes me cringe just thinking about it.

Is it even fair to put that kind of pressure on a dog that old?


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

I guess trying to evolve a training program so that is reduces pressure on a dog is to far outside the box for many here on ForceFetch.net. 

What the hell, they can take it, grind em up.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

So at what point in a dogs refusal do you revert back to the old tried and true method? All dogs train differently, and what gaurentee do you have that the dog will comply to the newer less evassive methods. Isn't pressure pressure no matter the method?


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

metalone67 said:


> So at what point in a dogs refusal do you revert back to the old tried and true method? All dogs train differently, and what gaurentee do you have that the dog will comply to the newer less evassive methods. Isn't pressure pressure no matter the method?


There is no guarantees but todays methods of patiently teaching hold first before applying the ear pinch (pain) is used by most of the really successful pro trainers today. The philosophy is to make it easier for the dog to learn through patience and with less confrontation. Makes for a better finished dog.

Years ago (many, many years ago) I was taught that when a dog pooped on the floor you'd take his nose and rub it in the mess and then toss him outside. Today, I show the dog that outside is where I want you to poop (by taking him out before he has a chance to mess in the house and praising him when he does it right) and once he knows what's expected I might use a bit of force to help the message sink in. 

"Teach the command, apply force, remove force and apply praise, remove praise. " 

These methods will continue to evolve and change and I'll bet many of the things we took as absolute truths in training today will be replaced with new and better ways in the not too distant future.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

So if the command is taught then why use force? Apparently the dog already knows it. Do you think all the past champions were not good finished dogs because they were FF by ear pinch or the toe hitch. 
I believe the ear pinch does more for the dog than just teach the hold/fetch command. Like I said if my dog is at 100 yrds I want it to know without a shadow of a doubt they will retrieve what ever it may be. To prove a point I know of a dog that was FF the new way that would retrieve everything but a duck with it's inards hanging out, my dogs will. Granted how many ducks are like this, but this helps me prove what I'm saying.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

metalone67 said:


> So if the command is taught then why use force? Apparently the dog already knows it. Do you think all the past champions were not good finished dogs because they were FF by ear pinch or the toe hitch.
> I believe the ear pinch does more for the dog than just teach the hold/fetch command. Like I said if my dog is at 100 yrds I want it to know without a shadow of a doubt they will retrieve what ever it may be. To prove a point I know of a dog that was FF the new way that would retrieve everything but a duck with it's inards hanging out, my dogs will. Granted how many ducks are like this, but this helps me prove what I'm saying.



There is lots of good material out there that is much easier to follow than if I were to try to explain the entire Force Fetch program on this forum. 

The reason to use force AFTER the command is taught, is to reinforce the command, teach the dog how to handle pressure and teach the dog how to turn off pressure by complying. All of this will help provide a solid foundation/sequence for further higher level training. 

The best and most successful competative retreivers in the world are taught using this approach..............but like I said, there's lots of different ways to get to the same place and if your happy doing it your way and it works for you, then by all means continue with it.

And as an aside, the dogs I've seen properly FF'd using this method will pick up and hold anything asked of them including rabbits, crows, fish.................................. and ducks with the entrails hanging out. 

"Teach the command, apply force, remove force and apply praise, remove praise. "


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

So in that Justin tackett video on another thread shows him applying force at the moment of hold. Am I missing something in that video.
So how do you get the object in their mouth to teach hold?


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

metalone67 said:


> So in that Justin tackett video on another thread shows him applying force at the moment of hold. Am I missing something in that video.
> So how do you get the object in their mouth to teach hold?



No, your not missing anything. That's the way Justin Tackett does it and I'm not disputing that it works. 

What I am saying is that the more modern methods, used by the best trainers in the world that produce the best competative retreivers in the world, generally apply a less confrontational method of teaching hold first and then applying the pressure.

Dog training is evolving all the time......what worked fine yesterday still works fine today. Students of "the game" are always looking for better methods to make it easier for the dog to learn and to get more preformance out these amazing critters. 

The whips and chains and shotguns and 2x4's and horribly brutal, stupid methods that were used years ago are being replaced by more humane and effective training. 

Pressure is still an integral part of training but the type and intensity of pressure, as well as how and when that pressure is applied, is what's changing and evolving. 

One of Mike Lardy's quotes essentially says that we've only just begun to tap into what these dogs are capable of doing. Be interesting to see what the next generation of dogs will be doing with the more effective training we're seeing today.


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