# shopping the pile



## tide pond (Feb 19, 2013)

Just a beginner with lots of questions. Doing pile work and my girl wants to sample all the wares. Trys all the bumpers till she finds the one that is "just right". ccd and ffd. Maybe not good enough on the force fetch? Suggestions?


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Do you have her on a rope? That is one of its purposes; to correct shopping. "Here"/tug is the treatment. Keep a foot or two between the bumpers.

Evan


----------



## Matthew J. Ries (Jul 1, 2012)

I know I was having this problem too. Like Evan said, key was the rope for yard work teaching the pile (starting 5 ft from pile, and max 20-25 ft) once we had that down it was to a larger field we went....this is where I learned distance between your bumpers is key and I also noticed for my pup if there was not enough distance between the bumpers (and if the smaller ones were up front) she easily overran them for larger middle of the pile bumpers, creating some confusion when she turned around to see more upon return. Rope and stretching the pile (deepen it with added distance) are my 2 cents...and in my case use a consistent bumper size or the bigger ones up front


----------



## tide pond (Feb 19, 2013)

Evan said:


> Do you have her on a rope? That is one of its purposes; to correct shopping. "Here"/tug is the treatment. Keep a foot or two between the bumpers.
> 
> Evan


She is of rope. Thought I was past that but probably not. She is so quick at picking one up and going to the next that I don't know if I would have time to react. Should I reduce my "pile" to one till she doesn't drop then go on to 2, etc?


----------



## tide pond (Feb 19, 2013)

Evan, Matt, thanks for the imput. We"ll go bac to the chek cord in the a.m.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

tide pond said:


> She is of rope. Thought I was past that but probably not. She is so quick at picking one up and going to the next that I don't know if I would have time to react. Should I reduce my "pile" to one till she doesn't drop then go on to 2, etc?


I start my pile work with 3 bumpers in what i call a Mini-pile specifically to clean up issues like shopping before setting a full pile. Not a bad idea to step back to that for this purpose.

Evan


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

tide pond said:


> Just a beginner with lots of questions. Doing pile work and my girl wants to sample all the wares. Trys all the bumpers till she finds the one that is "just right". ccd and ffd. Maybe not good enough on the force fetch? Suggestions?


Trust me I am no expert, but with the great advise from other members here on RTF, I found indirect pressure with the collar to be most productive to cure shopping the pile. My rope work isn't the best, was always tangling, getting wrapped around the dog's behind, and was more of a distraction to the dog than anything else etc. Using indirect pressure, if he shopped I would command Sit with a nick, then fetch come. Once I was getting good results with that I moved on to force to pile. I dont have anymore shopping the pile issues and the dog has a strong compulsion to get to that pile and grab one bumper and return now that we are in FTP.

Good luck with your dog


----------



## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

I am thinking about this and wonder why "shopping" is such a bad thing. My thoughts say that the dog just needs to bring back "a" bumper not a particular one. I seems to me that a good part of what we do involves the dog having fun until the point they make a serious mistake. I am looking for perspective here so thanks for answers.


----------



## grnhd (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm no expert either but why would "fetch" with a nick not work if the dog is shopping the pile and has been though FF and CC?


----------



## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

grnhd said:


> I'm no expert either but why would "fetch" with a nick not work if the dog is shopping the pile and has been though FF and CC?


In my humble inexperienced opinion I think that is fine in force to pile, but if introducing to pile work I would use the rope as others have suggested if proficient with it without distracting the dog, but in my case I am not proficient enough with it. So I used indirect pressure, by commanding sit "nick", then a fetch come. I saved the fetch (Back command) with a "nick" until force to pile.


----------



## Jay-Bird (Jul 5, 2012)

Evan said:


> I start my pile work with 3 bumpers in what i call a Mini-pile specifically to clean up issues like shopping before setting a full pile. Not a bad idea to step back to that for this purpose.
> 
> Evan


Yup..............


----------



## Jay-Bird (Jul 5, 2012)

grnhd said:


> I'm no expert either but why would "fetch" with a nick not work if the dog is shopping the pile and has been though FF and CC?




And again, yup..


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

grnhd said:


> I'm no expert either but *why would "fetch" with a nick not work *if the dog is shopping the pile and has been though FF and CC?


It should "work". But it may not be the most appropriate thing to do while you're training this skill, especially in the beginning. The result you're after is not only a dog that _will_ do the work, but that _will want to _do the work. Start with measures that make shopping less likely, like using only 3 well separated bumpers, and give the dog good habits. As that happens over time, elevate the standard by raising the requirements. More bumpers at more distance (gradually), and make corrections fundamental.

If a dog is shopping he's not coming. When he's sent to the pile it's his job to fetch and recall quickly and cleanly. That's what you spent those initial training days teaching him to do. Now you need to begin insisting on it. I prefer the results I've gotten from insisting on "Here". If he drops a bumper, or tries to come back without one, I take him immediately to the pile and force him on one. Then we begin again until the entire dynamic of FTP is running smoothly. Then we begin again to back away from the pile in small increments.

Evan


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> ...*If a dog is shopping he's not coming.* When he's sent to the pile it's his job to fetch and recall quickly and cleanly. That's what you spent those initial training days teaching him to do. Now you need to begin insisting on it. I prefer the results I've gotten from insisting on "Here". If he drops a bumper, or tries to come back without one, I take him immediately to the pile and force him on one. ......Evan


a Ayup, to this.
just like way back when the dog was shown how to hold. and then the buck/bumper was tapped to see if it would fall out. and when it did a couple, hold firmed up. pulling him off of the pile quick is just like tapping the bumper in hold. gets the dog thinking "I am gonna grab one quick and beat that jughead on the tug"! not that your dog would ever call you jughead;-)


----------



## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

Who cares? The dog went where sent, picks up a bumper, brings it back and delivers properly. What else do you want?
I have had a few shoppers and I never let it bother me. When it comes to test time or hunting, it won't be an issue. 
It is a minor avoidance/ confusion issue that goes away in time when the dog becomes more familiar and comfortable with the drill.
Continue on with your progression in whatever program you are using.
MP


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

I agree with Evan - its's a recall issue - and I also agree with Mike Perry!....

I'd live with the swap if I was achieving my objective of dog powering out (or whatever you are doing this drill/exercise for), but I would note it for later, and work on it separately. ie. set up an exercise that specifically deals with 'swapping' (or shopping). For me, I do this with short marks that are just thrown right next to each other.


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

A "pile of bumpers" is not a pile. 

Here's a "mini"-ipile and Gunny ready to "work" a regular pile. 

No shopping afterwards regards, Jim

*"mini"-pile*









*"regular" pile*


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Mike Perry said:


> Who cares? The dog went where sent, picks up a bumper, brings it back and delivers properly. What else do you want?
> I have had a few shoppers and I never let it bother me. When it comes to test time or hunting, it won't be an issue.
> It is a minor avoidance/ confusion issue that goes away in time when the dog becomes more familiar and comfortable with the drill.
> Continue on with your progression in whatever program you are using.
> MP


THIS!!!!! I have found correcting one small problem usually leads to a bigger one.Plus the fact I`m not a nagger!!!! Jim


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

KwickLabs said:


> A "pile of bumpers" is not a pile.
> 
> Here's a "mini"-ipile and Gunny ready to "work" a regular pile.
> 
> *No shopping afterwards* regards, Jim


On the money as usual, Jim!


kennel maiden said:


> I agree with Evan - its's a recall issue - and I also agree with Mike Perry!....


I've watched sessions in which the trainer opted to ignore the shopping. Sessions usually took at least twice as much time, and literally trained the dog to shop. Why would you do that when de-shopping takes so little time and effort? 

Does it have long term effects? Sometimes yes/sometimes no. I tend to err on the side of "I can control being smart better than I can control being lucky", and simply train the dog. It's easy and much more fun to live with.

Evan


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I just like to see my pups pick up the first bumper they encounter and return. Anything else conveys a sloppy or indecisive attitude. By teaching my pups how to work a pile, I don't have to deal with it later on and/or wait for it "to go away". Everyone has choices.


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

Evan said:


> On the money as usual, Jim!I've watched sessions in which the trainer opted to ignore the shopping. Sessions usually took at least twice as much time, and literally trained the dog to shop. Why would you do that when de-shopping takes so little time and effort?
> 
> Does it have long term effects? Sometimes yes/sometimes no. I tend to err on the side of "I can control being smart better than I can control being lucky", and simply train the dog. It's easy and much more fun to live with.
> 
> Evan


Like I say, I agree with both, and I can see applications for both approaches. Personally, I would not expect my own dogs to swap . I do regard that as a weakness in recall as I say. But you have to analyse the particular situation and particular dog, and adjust your approach accordingly. If you have a dog lacking in confidence and momentum, and you are using this drill to build that confidence and power, I would see it as slightly counterproductive to 'come down' on the dog for then swapping once it gets out there. When I have noted one of my clients dogs doing that, I've said 'okay, lets look at the swap issue separately', and I've given them exercises to then work on that, away from what we have just done, so it doesn't negate the dog's otherwise good work in powering out there.

Our piles aren't as big as yours LOL, so a dog going up and swapping between a couple of dummies really wouldn't make the training session any more than a couple of seconds longer.


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Evan said:


> On the money as usual, Jim!I've watched sessions in which the trainer opted to ignore the shopping. Sessions usually took at least twice as much time, and literally trained the dog to shop. Why would you do that when de-shopping takes so little time and effort?
> 
> Does it have long term effects? Sometimes yes/sometimes no.* I tend to err on the side of "I can control being smart better than I can control being lucky", and simply train the dog. It's easy and much more fun to live with.
> *
> Evan


I view shopping in the same category as stopping to shake when they get out of the water....an unnecessary behavior in the whole process...Steve S


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

steve schreiner said:


> I view shopping in the same category as stopping to shake when they get out of the water....an unnecessary behavior in the whole process...Steve S


translated to trials here, swapping game is an eliminating fault, whereas just shaking without dropping would be ok. If the dog put the bird down to shake, that would also be an eliminating fault. So, you're quite right, neither are desirable!


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Even 'Shaking' without dropping is an indication of an allowed 'shaped' behaviour'. But I'm just nip picking!...I suppose that have dogs that don't do it are just lucky?


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Swapping birds is a crime here as well, Switching. But the 2 birds would not be very close together. In other words once a dog picked up a mark or a blind he would have to go well out of his way to grab a different bird.
As for dropping birds, dog may do so prior to delivery, no problem. However, if handler drops bird while taking it from the dog's mouth that's a different story.


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> Swapping birds is a crime here as well, Switching. But the 2 birds would not be very close together. In other words once a dog picked up a mark or a blind he would have to go well out of his way to grab a different bird.
> As for dropping birds, dog may do so prior to delivery, no problem. However, if handler drops bird while taking it from the dog's mouth that's a different story.


Hmmm?...One Gal' who is best retriever this side of the Rio Grande', would choose a Partridge over a pheasant any day of the week! when 'Side by side'?..In fact ..I won many a money on that very same 'Trait'


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

kennel maiden said:


> Like I say, I agree with both, and I can see applications for both approaches. Personally, I would not expect my own dogs to swap . I do regard that as a weakness in recall as I say. But you have to analyse the particular situation and particular dog, and adjust your approach accordingly. If you have a dog lacking in confidence and momentum, and you are using this drill to build that confidence and power, I would see it as slightly counterproductive to 'come down' on the dog for then swapping once it gets out there. When I have noted one of my clients dogs doing that, I've said 'okay, lets look at the swap issue separately', and I've given them exercises to then work on that, away from what we have just done, so it doesn't negate the dog's otherwise good work in powering out there.
> 
> Our piles aren't as big as yours LOL, so a dog going up and swapping between a couple of dummies really wouldn't make the training session any more than a couple of seconds longer.



I like your take on this issue. What is the separate exercise that you recommend to clients to address shopping on its own? 

In my case, my pup had no issue shopping with 3 or 4 bumpers in each pile, but now that we are on the 100 yd T with side piles at 50 to 75 yds with 5 bumpers each, she is now shopping. The distance is too far to use a rope and I don't use the ecollar. She will shop two or three bumpers VERY quickly before I can whistle her, at which time she come in. 

I like the idea of doing a separate exercise to cure it, so as not to ruin the momentum and confuse the lesson during T work.

Thanks,
Jennifer


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I like your take on this issue. What is the separate exercise that you recommend to clients to address shopping on its own?
> 
> In my case, my pup had no issue shopping with 3 or 4 bumpers in each pile, but now that we are on the 100 yd T with side piles at 50 to 75 yds with 5 bumpers each, she is now shopping. The distance is too far to use a rope and I don't use the ecollar. *She will shop two or three bumpers VERY quickly before I can whistle her, at which time she come in.
> *
> ...


Get 150 FT ROPE....Go back and aggravate the situation until you do using a single pile...Put the bumpers in a stack like a pyramid..and see what happens...Create the problem so you can fix it ....I drop a dozen at a time in a 3 foot square when doing pile dills...Let them fall as they will...It sounds like you avoided the problem by just using 3 and spaced so the temptation was not so great to cause the behavior to show up...Steve S


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

steve schreiner said:


> Get 150 FT ROPE....Go back and aggravate the situation until you do using a single pile...Put the bumpers in a stack like a pyramid..and see what happens...Create the problem so you can fix it ....I drop a dozen at a time in a 3 foot square when doing pile dills...Let them fall as they will...It sounds like you avoided the problem by just using 3 and spaced so the temptation was not so great to cause the behavior to show up...Steve S


Looks like you seen the 'Partridge' ;-)


----------



## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

> It sounds like you avoided the problem by just using 3 and spaced so the temptation was not so great to cause the behavior to show up.


Exactly!


----------



## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

kennel maiden said:


> translated to trials here, swapping game is an eliminating fault, whereas just shaking without dropping would be ok. If the dog put the bird down to shake, that would also be an eliminating fault. So, you're quite right, neither are desirable!


Are you comparing shopping a pile in a force drill to a switch? Apples and oranges at best.


----------



## tide pond (Feb 19, 2013)

It was my original post. i spent the last two mornings sending her at close(20') range to three groups of three bumpers. I was close enough to yell a loud no! when she dropped her initial selection, called her back to heel and sent her again with loud praises if she brought back her first touch. Did pretty good yesterday and not a miss today! I'll back off tomorrow to greater distance but so far i'm encouraged.


----------



## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

It appears that there are different definitions of "shopping". I think of it as a dog looking at one then another then another then finally picking one up. IMO once they pick one up, they should bring it promptly to hand. If they drop one and then get another, it is a switch. No switches ever allowed!!!!!!
Before I begin pile work, mine are already collar fetched and if they pick one up, then drop it, it is correction time. I let them look around for the right one when they get to the pile, but once it is off the ground, it better be coming toward me.
Pick your battles regards
MP


----------



## webfootkennel of IL (Sep 22, 2005)

Some shop without picking up others have one in mouth while looking for another, most times its indecision on the dogs parts, probably the 1st time he has seen multiple choices. So simplify it for him more seperation between bumpers at 1st and a check cord. When he picks the 1st bumper up, no here and a tug on rope with either choke chain or pinch collar, whichever he has been trained with. Create a desire to pick up and return quickly.
Switching is a huge no-no, and it comes to light when a diversion bird is thrown on the dogs path while returning from a retrieve, as in a hunt test


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

rbr said:


> Are you comparing shopping a pile in a force drill to a switch? Apples and oranges at best.



Are you referring to the dog hunting one mark ,leaving the fall area to hunt a different bird..? There is another application for the term switch...
When there is a diversion bird thrown close to the line a dog is returning on they can be tempted to switch birds ....Any time a dog picks one off the ground and drops it for another one it is a problem ...They should never lay one down once it is in their mouth ...That is how cripple birds escape....Steve S


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

steve schreiner said:


> Get 150 FT ROPE....Steve S


I Love You Man!


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

My dog can handle a simple diversion so far. What's hard is having a pile of 5 to 9 bumpers in a small circle of space. Which one do you want, Ma?


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> My dog can handle a simple diversion so far. What's hard is having a pile of 5 to 9 bumpers in a small circle of space. Which one do you want, Ma?


The first one you come to, pup!

Evan


----------



## Mark AB (Oct 20, 2010)

Obviously new to this and many here have offered advice and thoughts based on a lot more experiance then I have. The one thing I have learned, the hard way, is its easier to train then to correct. By allowing to shop, I have no clue on what future poor behaviors this has foundationally been built on by allowing my pup to shop. If I am honest with myself, I don't send my pup to the pile saying "go ahead and shop and when your feel your done and deciding, come on back to me with it". So I just lowered my standards and thats a slippery slope. But each dog and owner is different and I have to weigh the cost/benifit of maybe nagging and loosing sight of the drills objective if I have a dog that cant handle nagging well.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

tide pond said:


> Just a beginner with lots of questions. Doing pile work and my girl wants to sample all the wares. Trys all the bumpers till she finds the one that is "just right". ccd and ffd. Maybe not good enough on the force fetch? Suggestions?


Small two inch bumpers 18 inches apart in a circle pile, then cut it down to about 12 inches apart. Keep on rope and as it progresses the very mini second it puts mouth on the bumper, yank rope with a here command, if the dog drops bumper and probably will, bumper that was dropped reinforce fetch do it again. At this stage ear pinch works best.
Later if conditioned e collar nick lowest compliance level. If still a problem go back to walking fetch for a few days.


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

rbr said:


> Are you comparing shopping a pile in a force drill to a switch? Apples and oranges at best.


Care to elaborate Bert? Several birds lying on the ground after a drive, a few feet or metres apart, dog picks one and then spots another and swaps game, how is this any different to if it is dummies in a pile? The principle is the same. The dog has picked but not returned promptly. It has gone on to do something else and not return straight to handler after filling its mouth.

Again, it harks back to an underlying problem of recall, and lack of 'importance' of the handler. There is a weakness there.


----------



## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

tide pond said:


> It was my original post. i spent the last two mornings sending her at close(20') range to three groups of three bumpers. I was close enough to yell a loud no! when she dropped her initial selection, called her back to heel and sent her again with loud praises if she brought back her first touch. Did pretty good yesterday and not a miss today! I'll back off tomorrow to greater distance but so far i'm encouraged.


Just a word of caution, a loud "No" can cause some confusion

Bert


----------



## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

kennel maiden said:


> Care to elaborate Bert? Several birds lying on the ground after a drive, a few feet or metres apart, dog picks one and then spots another and swaps game, how is this any different to if it is dummies in a pile? The principle is the same. The dog has picked but not returned promptly. It has gone on to do something else and not return straight to handler after filling its mouth.
> 
> Again, it harks back to an underlying problem of recall, and lack of 'importance' of the handler. There is a weakness there.



When in a test is the dog coming across several birds a couple yards apart?

Bert


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

rbr said:


> When in a test is the dog coming across several birds a couple yards apart?
> 
> Bert


It sure happens while hunting, doesn't it? 

Evan


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

kennel maiden said:


> Care to elaborate Bert? Several birds lying on the ground after a drive, a few feet or metres apart, dog picks one and then spots another and swaps game, how is this any different to if it is dummies in a pile? The principle is the same. The dog has picked but not returned promptly. It has gone on to do something else and not return straight to handler after filling its mouth.
> 
> Again, it harks back to an underlying problem of recall, and lack of 'importance' of the handler. There is a weakness there.


Like Mike said earlier,we have a conflict of meaninings to the word shop.My interpretation is picking a bumber up at the pile and with it in his mouth continue to nose or walk around the pile.That does not bother me much.Now if they pick one up,drop,pick another,drop.That is what I call shopping.All that is addressed on the table way before I do pile work.
I have not ever had an issue with the "noser"on any our driven shoots dropping and picking another up.If so here "nick" here has worked for me.
We do several hundred birds here in the fall and winter on driven type shoots so our dogs (and clients) get lots of exposure.

Hope to have some pics up of an all chessy shoot we are having in march.


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

rbr said:


> When in a test is the dog coming across several birds a couple yards apart?
> 
> Bert


Yes, definitely in a field trial where there will be several birds lying on the ground together after a drive, sometimes almost on top of each other. In a working test there may be a few dummies put in one area for a 'picking up' exercise, yes, but these will not be right on top of each other.


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

jd6400 said:


> Like Mike said earlier,we have a conflict of meaninings to the word shop.My interpretation is picking a bumber up at the pile and with it in his mouth continue to nose or walk around the pile.That does not bother me much.Now if they pick one up,drop,pick another,drop.That is what I call shopping.All that is addressed on the table way before I do pile work.
> I have not ever had an issue with the "noser"on any our driven shoots dropping and picking another up.If so here "nick" here has worked for me.
> We do several hundred birds here in the fall and winter on driven type shoots so our dogs (and clients) get lots of exposure.
> 
> Hope to have some pics up of an all chessy shoot we are having in march.


Okay, both of the variations you have described would be eliminating faults here. If the dog picks and then noses around he is 'hunting on' and would be put out in competition. Likewise, switching/swapping/shopping. Either way, it boils down to the same thing again, I'm afraid - lack of importance of getting quickly back to the handler once the dog has picked.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

tide pond said:


> It was my original post. i spent the last two mornings sending her at close(20') range to three groups of three bumpers. I was close enough to yell a loud no! when she dropped her initial selection, called her back to heel and sent her again with loud praises if she brought back her first touch. Did pretty good yesterday and not a miss today! I'll back off tomorrow to greater distance but so far i'm encouraged.


You might want to try a bird in the face drill. Throw a bumper, send dog, toss bumper at dog, don't hit her with bumper,
If she drops bumper you sent her for, take bumper she switched on, replace with bumper she dropped. Heel her back to line and repeat, toss bumper, send dog, dog picks up thrown bumper, 3/4's way back throw bumper again maybe off about 10 or 15 feet towards the dog. Same thing if try to go for the tossed bumper, command no here fetch , good dog if she delivers the original tossed bumper. Switch proofs the dog might help some on your pile work. Most dogs catch on to this drill after a few times. You could run her on a rope, if she is good with rope, you don't step on it as you send and doesn't get caught on something. Most of this stuff ,FF, pile work, etc, isn't complicated as many make it. Keep it simple and use conventional wisdom and when digging hole, quit digging and seek advice, you are seeking advice! Great start.
Of course much depends on what FF program you are following, but, if it is FF with e collar work down the road most are about the same. A bright dog helps.


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

kennel maiden said:


> Okay, both of the variations you have described would be eliminating faults here. If the dog picks and then noses around he is 'hunting on' and would be put out in competition. Likewise, switching/swapping/shopping. Either way, it boils down to the same thing again, I'm afraid - lack of importance of getting quickly back to the handler once the dog has picked.


And like I said here nick here has worked for me!


----------



## kennel maiden (Jun 11, 2012)

You 'nick' away Jd!!! There's no nicking going on here!....


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

kennel maiden said:


> You 'nick' away Jd!!! There's no nicking going on here!....


Force Fetch, the entire program has little or nothing to do with dropping birds, switching birds, it is the foundation of the electric collar program . It is about conditioning the dog to pressure, running under pressure and getting out of pressure.
It is the basis for most e collar training. Many or so called washout dogs fail this portion of the program and later as field trial dogs are washed out. Is it the only program, no, but for many it is the easiest to follow .


----------



## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> My dog can handle a simple diversion so far. What's hard is having a pile of 5 to 9 bumpers in a small circle of space. Which one do you want, Ma?


Jennifer , be care full with a dog that is going to do scent discrimination on articles when doing pile drills ....The quick pickup of the first on you come to will cause some fall out when they have to hunt for the correct one ...just a word of advice ...looking farther down the road.....


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

steve schreiner said:


> Jennifer , be care full with a dog that is going to do scent discrimination on articles when doing pile drills ....The quick pickup of the first on you come to will cause some fall out when they have to hunt for the correct one ...just a word of advice ...looking farther down the road.....


Good advice my trial dogs, both CDX Goldens years ago were 195 plus novice and open. Got to utility never could teach the articles, tryed every thing, they were pile work dogs, grabbed the first article. One dog AFC Wildfire if Riverview CDX , Sparky, in many Golden pedigrees failed the utility work, we trained together Lew Daniels and myself 
Never could get it down . We changed some of commands like over to jump for the broad jump, but, nothing worked for the articles.


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

steve schreiner said:


> Jennifer , be care full with a dog that is going to do scent discrimination on articles when doing pile drills ....The quick pickup of the first on you come to will cause some fall out when they have to hunt for the correct one ...just a word of advice ...looking farther down the road.....



Thanks for the thought, Steve. We don't do Obedience, however. Just Hunt Tests and hopefully Field Trials. Two Senior tests and two Derbies coming up in April.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

We do obedience and field.
Didn't have an issue. Two different commands. Two completely different venues. 
"Find it" for articles. "Fetch it up" for bumpers.
Earl, I'd be curious what method you used for teaching articles, and especially if it was done indoors.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

hotel4dogs said:


> We do obedience and field.
> Didn't have an issue. Two different commands. Two completely different venues.
> "Find it" for articles. "Fetch it up" for bumpers.
> Earl, I'd be curious what method you used for teaching articles, and especially if it was done indoors.


We tied articles down, used different types toothbrushes, etc, tried in the dark, had advice from some top obedience people used different commands. Nona Bauer featured one of the dogs in her Golden Retriever book Marshlands Shotzy CDX QAA U.S. And Canada what a mouthful haven't written that in a long, long time. I entered Shotzy in four shows
Everyone wanted to know who the mask man was his obedience career lasted less then 9 months. He did everything perfect, directed retrieve, gloves, silent commands. Now the articles he picked the first one with the speed of sound.
Judge wanted to know if he always worked that fast! All four shows he DQ on the articles, end of his utility career.
I haven't done AKC obedience since these black dogs just don't have the showmanship. Connie Drobac even tried to help me, but, to no avail. That pile work did me in.


----------



## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

Barb, I am sorry it was Betty Drobac, Connie Cleveland's mother I think. It was a long time ago, 1983 or1984. Also forgot some of his stuff old habits die he was

Marshland's Shotzy MH CDX Qual all age ( couldn't find stars) US and Canada Dog World award in obedience WCX ( he had a all breed amateur all age win plus points in field trials and a lotta JAMs) ran him until 10 years just couldn't finish his AFC
I don't know what those suffixes are now?


----------



## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

jd6400 said:


> And like I said here nick here has worked for me!


Like using the word "no" ,around the pile is not where I would be nikking.


----------



## rbr (Jan 14, 2004)

kennel maiden said:


> Yes, definitely in a field trial where there will be several birds lying on the ground together after a drive, sometimes almost on top of each other. In a working test there may be a few dummies put in one area for a 'picking up' exercise, yes, but these will not be right on top of each other.


I take it you are speaking of a drive in the UK as we don't have that sort of test in American Field Trials.

My basic point however is a youngster shopping a pile in a pressure drill is realy not the same as the dog leaving the AOF after an established hunt on a marking set up, 
which in most of our minds is the definition of a switch.

Bert


----------



## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Kennel maiden...
???

So over there, if dog picks up a bird and rather than return directly to you she drops it and picks up another, exactly what will you do to remedy the matter?.
.
In our trials we have no piles of birds in close proximity to one another. However on our separate and distinct marks the birds may be near enough to one another, say 50 yards, for dog to be tempted to "switch" to another while returning. Or, while hunting the fall area of one mark, before finding bird, dog may leave area and high tail it over to a different bird, again a Switch.
In "pile work" training there is a pile of bumpers, not birds, which is where we have "shopping" issues. Sometimes we'll run a blind with several dogs and set out enough birds for all of them.
When we want to end shopping "NO Here" Toot, toot, toot may be enough. It it becomes more irritating collar pressure may be added. No Here, nick or burn. However in the vicinity of guns and birds use of collar needs to be measured with a bit of caution.


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

rbr said:


> Like using the word "no" ,around the pile is not where I would be nikking.


Bert,my philosophy is if you have conditioned to HERE,you shouldn`t have a problem.If I do then maybe the conditioning to here has failed !Like I said before it has worked for me but very rarely have I had to do it. Especially once I`ve completed walking fetch,maybe I`ve been lucky.Jim


----------



## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> Kennel maiden...
> ???
> 
> So over there, if dog picks up a bird and rather than return directly to you she drops it and picks up another, exactly what will you do to remedy the matter?.
> ...


If Re-call is installed,That should be enough.!


----------



## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Polmais and KM, do you ever use training drills involving a tight grouping of 5 to 8 bumpers?

Or do you only use one or two bumpers per destination at a time? The Irish trainer I've spoken to only uses one bumper per location to prevent shopping.

So do you prevent shopping in this way, or do you introduce the temptation in training in order to train it out?

Thanks,
Jen

Edit: As example, I found it interesting that the Irish trainer teaches/tests his dogs skills of casting, sending and whistle stopping using a drill called the "rotating diamond" instead of what most use here, the T or Double T. He has 4 destinations that form shape of a diamond 100 yds apart. He stands at one of the 4 spots and sends dog for directly opposite spot, whistle stops dog and casts to either back, left or right. Then switches to another of the 4 positions and runs again. Always having only one bumper or bird at each destination.


----------

