# Low force No E-collar Training



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Okay here we go,

I have chosen not to force fetch or use an e-collar in my training of my new Yellow Lab Pup who is 4.5 months old.

I got a "not so welcome" welcome, on another forum and wondered if there were other like minded folks, lerking around this site that might care to have some discussions about this type of training.

anxiously awaiting your reponses.

P


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Hi “P”,
And Welcome to RTF!
Yes there are actually quite a few folk like what you speak off lurking about here on RTF. ALL types of retriever folk are here and new ones welcomed all the time. What are your goals with your pup? Hunt tests, field trials or a good ole “Meat Dawg”?

.


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

There's a few other amish low force trainers here.

Most of us are ecollar and ff proponents.

Personally, I don't care how you train your dog as long as he's cared for, happy, with tail and ears up most of the time.


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Ken Bora said:


> Hi “P”,
> And Welcome to RTF!
> Yes there are actually quite a few folk like what you speak off lurking about here on RTF. ALL types of retriever folk are here and new ones welcomed all the time. What are your goals with your pup? Hunt tests, field trials or a good ole “Meat Dawg”?
> 
> .


A good hunting dog. Not really interested in trials or test. Just want a steady well behaved obedient dog. I want him to listen from a distance and take hand signals reliably


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

So getting right into it.

The dog is 4.5 months and this is his status.

pretty steady at thrown bumpers and balls

Honors my other dog's retrieves

Takes marks VERY WELL. most around 50 yards

Long Memories sometimes require a little bit of stop to the whistle and then a cast.


enjoys hunting cover

delivers to hand reliably but kinda mouthy on the bumper ( I will teach hold after the teeth come in)

has been continually rewarded for sit (and sit means stay) .
He will sit out in the middle of the field even when I duck out of sight and reliably comes to the recall whistle. 


He gets a "little" confused with his lefts and rights and backs but is good about stopping to the whistle for a "repeat" cast at which point he usually gets it right. (4.5 months)


Should I stick to lefts only for a while and then rights only then backs or is okay to mix it up during training sessions

most training sessions usually last about 15 minutes.

I have him heeling pretty well while walking and during marks and also on deliveries.

I have not used a lead or collar much..not sure if this is a mistake..probably so. 

At this point his preferred place is close to me, even with the older dog ruinning about. If the other dog gets very far off while they are romping around he will usually run back to me after thay get out there a little ways and let the other dog keep going. I expect he will get braver as he gets older.

Anyway thats where we are and wonder how it sounds to ya'll


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi Pas Bon and welcome to the forum. I train without FF or collar. Your goals for your dog are certainly achievable. Be patient, it may take longer than you think. Teach, teach, teach and use a lot of attrition.

Snick


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Snicklefritz said:


> Hi Pas Bon and welcome to the forum. I train without FF or collar. Your goals for your dog are certainly achievable. Be patient, it may take longer than you think. Teach, teach, teach and use a lot of attrition.
> 
> Snick


I am trying to be patient. Thanks for the encouragement!


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

HI PB,

Welcome to RTF and I wish you the best of luck with your training and your pup!

Chris


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

I am one of the minority that trains without force fetch and without ecollar. I have found that if you change the traditional sequence of behaviors, you can get the dog trained faster with positive training than with force-based training. The main behaviors trained and their sequence is:

Sequence .....Behavior........	...Elements of Behavior 

1.................Obedience.........Sit, Stay, Come, Remote Sit 
2.................Steady.............Wait until sent to retrieve 
3.................Whistle Stop......Stop and look at me on cue (whistle) 
4.................Hand Signals......Stop, and look, and take cast left, right, or back 
5.................Go out..............Sight blinds, permanent blinds 
6.................Blind Retrieves....Handling patterns, then cold blinds 

Notice the absence of training on marks. A key point is to allow the dog few to no marks untill after he is steady and after he is doing blinds.

Welcome to the forum


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I train without a collar, because thats how I was taught and by my brother and it has served us well...I respect the heck out of E collar trainers as long as they return the same. I dont try and change them and trying to change me at this late stage of my life would be a lesson in futility..

If you ask me a question on training I will give you an answer based on what I know, if i dont know the answer I will refrain from answering. I refuse to get in a urinating match with anyone on why its the method I chose over others ...

Welcome to the forum, I will be more than happy to answer just about any question as long as you are willing to at least listen to the answer...whether or not you use it is entirely up to you 

I still dont like the term Amish trainer, I prefer tennis shoe trainer , or old school trainer..if you are afraid to air your questions on an open forum for fear of being ridiculed, feel free to use the PM method..

I know this may sound like an oxymoron but I am a Rex Carr fan, wish I could have spent some time with him


----------



## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> I still dont like the term Amish trainer, I prefer tennis shoe trainer , or old school trainer.


I'm just the opposite, preferring "Amish" because "tennis shoe trainer" infers a lot more footwork than I find necessary for remote training and "old school" is often painted as meaning brutal force and bird shot. Just less "baggage" with Amish - and it's easier to type than "non e-collar". 

Pas Bon, though not without disciples of The One True Path, I think you'll find this site a friendlier place.



> He gets a "little" confused with his lefts and rights and backs but is good about stopping to the whistle for a "repeat" cast at which point he usually gets it right. (4.5 months)
> 
> Should I stick to lefts only for a while and then rights only then backs or is okay to mix it up during training sessions


This offers a pretty good example of how shaky foundations may lead to trouble best avoided with firmer foundational work. While it's good that Pup will stop to whistle for recast, too much of that sort of correction might lead to him coming to expect it and "popping" (stopping on his own) for recast. Much better, I think, to work on his directional foundations until they are thoroughly conditioned automatic responses, rather than something he has to think about and try to get right.


----------



## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Pas Bon said:


> Okay here we go,
> 
> I have chosen not to force fetch or use an e-collar in my training of my new Yellow Lab Pup who is 4.5 months old.
> 
> ...


I've been told that it speeds up training but I also train my dogs without the e collar. I do force fetch some of them. My primary goal is to have a very well trained gundog that can use for hunt tests. I am patient with my training.


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

rmilner said:


> Notice the absence of training on marks. A key point is to allow the dog few to no marks untill after he is steady and after he is doing blinds.
> 
> Welcome to the forum


Mr Milner Thank for your comments. 

My first choice was to purchase a pup from you, however a friend asked that I provide a stud service with my old yellow lab in exchange for pick of the litter. My friend has seen my dog in the field throughout the years and knows him to be a great hunting dog and I could'nt pass up getting a pup off my trusted old dog.

back to the pup.

The first and primary focus has been steadiness! and I feel this is an area we have done well in. 

What is a the concept behind "go out" to sight/permanent blinds,,,are those memory retrieves?


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> I train without a collar, because thats how I was taught and by my brother and it has served us well...I respect the heck out of E collar trainers as long as they return the same. I dont try and change them and trying to change me at this late stage of my life would be a lesson in futility..
> 
> If you ask me a question on training I will give you an answer based on what I know, if i dont know the answer I will refrain from answering. I refuse to get in a urinating match with anyone on why its the method I chose over others ...
> 
> ...


Thank You!


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

rmilner said:


> A key point is to allow the dog few to no marks untill after he is steady and after he is doing blinds.


how do you know if the dog is steady until you toss and shoot a duck in front of him?


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Rick Hall said:


> I'm just the opposite, preferring "Amish" because "tennis shoe trainer" infers a lot more footwork than I find necessary for remote training and "old school" is often painted as meaning brutal force and bird shot. Just less "baggage" with Amish - and it's easier to type than "non e-collar".
> 
> Pas Bon, though not without disciples of The One True Path, I think you'll find this site a friendlier place.
> 
> ...


When we "fail" at something I always stop right there and go back to something more familiar and someting the pup can succeed at...I know setting him up to fail is a bad Idea. At 4.5 months I doubt we've screwed up too bad...I'm just trying to avoid training out bad habits later. I really have been working on simple foundational work. Teeth are falling out now and we will stop all retrieve work and focus only on heel work, sit (by himself away from me for extended periods of time) thank GOD he's not whinning. My older dog whines when I leave him on the stand walk off from him. Or when ducks hit the water and we are waiting for the BIG bunch to commit. (trying to avoid this) 

You know what I encountered on the other sight, How are the birds looking around your area?


----------



## Hoytman (Jun 23, 2003)

rmilner said:


> I am one of the minority that trains without force fetch and without ecollar. I have found that if you change the traditional sequence of behaviors, you can get the dog trained faster with positive training than with force-based training. The main behaviors trained and their sequence is:
> 
> Sequence .....Behavior........ ...Elements of Behavior
> 
> ...


Hi Robert,
I've noticed that most of your comments are always short and sweet. Sometimes they leave me wondering a bit. The comments are always positive but it's like your holding out on us a bit, it seems alot. Do you have a current system, step-by-step, in writing that you use? Does a person have to attend a seminar in order to get it?

You've outlined the sequence, behavior, and the element of behavior, but it seems you always leave out the most important part...how to form the behavior. In other words you seemingly always list your ideas but hardly ever how to accomplish them. I for one am more interested in how you form these behaviors, the details above and the details in-between.

Bill


----------



## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Actually we should be asking you for advice.
Thats a pretty advanced puppy.

My guess is keep doing whatever your doing ,,,if your last hunting dog was a great one it sounds like this one will be as great if not better.

Good luck and welcome
pete


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Bill,
I do have root sequence of behaviors that I train. I have'nt put it in a book or dvd yet, but plan to. It is probably a year or two away. Meanwhile I do monthly seminars at the kennel and I put a lot on my web site, www.duckhillkennels.com in the forum section.

Ken, 
Here is a video clip that might explain the basic behavior of steadiness trained from a positive aspect. The behavior is sit calmly, the reward is initially a click followed by a treat.
The reward changes fairly soon to a retrieve with the "click" serving as a bridge.

You start with a very little throw of a dummy, build up over a number of short sessions to
big, long throws, then add on guns, birds, etc. The key point is keeping the level of distraction (tempation) low enough that the dog is successful at sitting calmly, and thus he can be rewarded with the retrieve. When the trainer screws up and makes the tempation too high and the dog breaks, then you back up and simplify with lower temtation for couple of sessions, before proceeding. I have quit punishing for breaking and have found that it doesn't make much difference in length of time or number of training sessions to get a dog steady.

Lizzie gets steadiness lesson with clicker – bridging from food reward to retrieve reward
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWoZgrn76b8


----------



## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Pas Bon said:


> So getting right into it.
> 
> The dog is 4.5 months and this is his status.
> 
> ...


Wow! Very impressive for a 4.5 month old.


----------



## Alan Sandifer (Oct 17, 2007)

I dont know where you are located , BUT if you want some great advice on training without a collar and FF contact TOM HAMILTON at Bracken Fen Gundogs . He trained in england for 4 years and trained a Field Trial Champion , i have met Tom and he is a super nice guy with some really nice dogs . His contact number is 228-831-1791


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

I looked at the vid. I see you have a rope. I got it 
I must have read wrong your above post


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Lorie Jolly has also trained a FT champion and several MH. She uses the collar only for safety reasons and is 99% no collar. She has a nice book too!

She's giving a seminar in Central Florida the second week in December if that's close to you.

Here a link:

http://www.rosehillretrievers.com/


----------



## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Tom Hamilton is a good friend and a superb trainer.


----------



## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

My friend Tom Hamilton is as authentic as it gets on these shores with regard to "British" training, and breeding. He has also trained HRCH dogs sans e-collar, although he has gotten out of the HT game game due to his family commitments. He is as nice a fellow as you will ever meet, as well. If you want to train a very nice hunting dog without a collar, he would be an excellent resource. If you want to do UK style FT's, he is THE premier resource, IMHO. 

If you have big boy US field trial aspirations, there are several folks who have posted on this thread that would be excellent resources as well.


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks To all of you.


Mr Milner please explain.


5.................Go out..............Sight blinds, permanent blinds 

from your earlier posts

ThanKs
P


----------



## ducknwork (Jun 12, 2009)

PM me your email address and I'll forward some info that someone shared with me a while back.


----------



## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

Pas Bon said:


> How are the birds looking around your area?


An eagle beat me to our marsh this morning, so there was next to nothing hanging around to be seen by either of us. But it generally seems to be boom or bust over this way, with both ducks and geese staying in a relative few huge concentrations, rather than spreading out. Much will change Saturday.


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Pas Bon said:


> Thanks To all of you.
> 
> 
> Mr Milner please explain.
> ...


PB, I don't mean to speak for Robert, and I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong but:

I believe 'Sight blinds' and 'permanent blinds' are roughly the British equivalent (in their intent) to 'Wagon Wheel' and 'Pattern Blinds'.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

There are a variety of methods to train a dog. Folks sometimes forget that a collar is just a tool. In the video Robert posted he demonstrates "positive" reward based training for steadiness. What the video doesn't demonstrate is the correction for the dog actually breaking. No doubt that correction would be denying the mark or perhaps stepping on the rope to physically stop the dog. Either way it is an aversive method of training and for some dogs, a slight nick with an ecollar might be less aversive than the denying of the mark. 

In this video he works on delivery to hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCtlRAGnsdU

and you'll see him stepping on the rope to get the dog to come back. Again an aversive manner. 

The real key is finding a method that you're comfortable with. The clicker is popular because it is quick, consistent and timely. Combined with a praise or reward, such as treats, it builds a marker for the dog to establish good habits. Many of my clients have a terrible time knowing when or how much praise to provide, when not to praise at all and when to correct. This manner of training works well for them. The other benefit is that most dogs have the ability to learn and grow despite some errors on the humans part for positive/negative reinforcement and the timing involved. What many dogs can't handle is the extreme aspects of poor timing coupled with harsh correction, e-collar or otherwise. Regardless of the tools used its the manner in which the training is applied that counts. A fair training methodology based on a high rate of success and education with appropriate corrections is the key. Whatever tools a person finds themselves able to use to accomplish that should be acceptable.

/Paul


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Ken Bora said:


> I looked at the vid. I see you have a rope. I got it
> I must have read wrong your above post



hang on a minute... i can't see the video but what is a ROPE being used for other than to apply negative pressure (restrained at the neck). if we're poisitive only then the dog would not be punished for making the mistake. 

I get the obedience first and retrieving second methodology outlined in the original post. I get the positive reenforcement phase of that training... 

But are we saying that we teach heel, sit, here and everything else without ever applying adverse stimulous to the dog? 

The minute you put a rope and collar on you broke that mantra, didn't you?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> hang on a minute... i can't see the video but what is a ROPE being used for other than to apply negative pressure (restrained at the neck to prevent the retrieve). if we're poisitive only then the dog would be allowed to make the retrieve (aka get the reward) even though they made a mistake.
> 
> adding a rope implies denial of the reward for making that mistake and that is not purely positive, is it?
> 
> ...


Victoria Stillwell would be so proud of you for coming so far in so little time....

/Paul


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Pas Bon said:


> Okay here we go,
> 
> I have chosen not to force fetch or use an e-collar in my training of my new Yellow Lab Pup who is 4.5 months old.
> 
> ...


The original poster did not ask for a discussion of the relative merits different training methods, nor did he ask for advice or opinions on his choice. He tip-toed in here looking for help with his chosen method.

Evan has started a thread here :http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47447
where the relative merits are being discussed. Please leave this thread dedicated to the intent of the original poster.

Thanks, Snick


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> As for the actual training question, I agree with Pete. *If he really has a 4.5 mo old dog doing all that stuff to a high degree of proficiency, we need advice from him vs. he from us.*



Negative! You don't need advice from me...I'm on here looking for advice.


If my 4.5 month old was doing these things with a high degree of proficiency I wouldn't be looking for help. However he is doing these things.

I really don't think I said anything to convey a high degree of proficiency.

And I agree with Snicklefritz I'm not looking to compare one method to the next. I'm ONLY looking for help.


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Darrin, if anyone tells me they are 'pure positive' I don't believe it for a minute. But, I don't see the rope in this video as being aversive, at least not any more aversive than the presence of a collar, or the trainer himself. Robert is not using the rope in an aversive way. In fact, when he rewarded the dog with a retrieve the dog was still wearing the rope, and did not respond as if the rope were aversive.

That's the way I read it. And, I suspect the same result would have occured without the rope. JMHO.

Chuck


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> The original poster did not ask for a discussion of the relative merits different training methods, nor did he ask for advice or opinions on his choice. He tip-toed in here looking for help with his chosen method.
> 
> Evan has started a thread here :http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47447
> where the relative merits are being discussed. Please leave this thread dedicated to the intent of the original poster.
> ...


Actually you need to re-read his first post and the one you quoted. He exactly requested a discussion pertaining to this type of training. That is exactly what he got. If he has a particular question on how to make his dog do something using that training, then he needs to ask it....



/Paul


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

So let me post up an actual question.

My dog stops to the whistle. He is highly proficient *when he is at heel*.....we walk along I hit the whistle he stops quickly.


When he is "out" he *will *stop but not abrubtly like he does at heel, now I understand at 4.5 months I shouldn't expect too much what I want to know is how to sharpen him up as we progress and as he gets older.

The latest scenario is this. (we aren't doing alot of retrieving now because of his teeth) Anyway. I sit him down and walk away about 30yards. Give him the recall whistle let him come to me about 1/2 way and hit the "one beep" stop whistle. He will slow down and take about 5 steps and then stop. Once again he's 4.5 months I know I know but what can I do to work on this to get him to snap into that sit just a little faster.


----------



## Dux-R-Us (Nov 6, 2009)

I found the e-collar to be the greatest invention since the lead. It really is not cruel at all. It has made training so much easier. I was leary at first, but once I learned how to use it I am a firm proponent of it. 

Force Fetching-my opinion is do it if you feel it is necessary. I have to do it now to correct dropping bird problems, but your pup may not need it. 

Use your own judgement and train the way you want. Only you know your dog best, and not someone on the internet.

Cheers

Kevin


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> Darrin, if anyone tells me they are 'pure positive' I don't believe it for a minute. But, I don't see the rope in this video as being aversive, at least not any more aversive than the presence of a collar, or the trainer himself. Robert is not using the rope in an aversive way. In fact, when he rewarded the dog with a retrieve the dog was still wearing the rope, and did not respond as if the rope were aversive.
> 
> That's the way I read it. And, I suspect the same result would have occured without the rope. JMHO.
> 
> Chuck


You don't see the rope being used as an aversive. No tool is aversive until used. This video does not demonstrate that. Yet as I posted previously, what if the dog actually broke? and how about the other vidoe where he uses the rope as an aversive? 

/Paul


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

If the dog actually breaks, you take the dog back to the point of infraction, shorten the duration or distance until the dog is solid, and go on from there.

Pas Bon, in regard to your question about a prompt sit. It is easier to have a dog sit to the whistle when he is coming toward you. The harder part is when he is going away.

I had a similar issue (and still do from time to time). What helped me was rewarding a prompt sit with a bumper. Call the dog toward you, call for the sit. The minute the dog's butt hits the ground throw a fun bumper. In time, the dog will figure out that the sooner he sits, the sooner he gets the bumper. Much is attrition. My dog has gotten better with time. We've gone from a big, slow, loopy sit to a crisp sit (most of the time) with more training. (I think a lot has to do with generalizing from the snappy sit at your side to a snappy sit in the field).

In the field be careful that working on that snappy sit doesn't turn into autocasting.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> If the dog actually breaks, you take the dog back to the point of infraction, shorten the duration or distance until the dog is solid, and go on from there.



Do you let the dog get the bumper?

/Paul


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

the OP didn't say NO pressure (there truly is no such thing since merely saying SIT is pressure). 

he didn't say no corrections

he didn't say no aversives

he said "low pressure" no e collar

the dog needs things black and white...

reward the correct behavior, discourage the wrong behavior

check cord and collar (pinch collar if it's me)

second person holds the rope and stops the dog when he is commanded to sit

he will quickly learn to avoid even a a small aversive, such as a flat collar 

he will learn even more quickly with something a bit more intense, such as a pinch collar

once he gets to doing it right because he wants to avoid the correction, you can give him praise and or a treat for doing it right

reward the correct behavior, discourge the wrong behavior

but what ya gonna do when you run outta rope?

BTW I have exactly one AKC Senior Hunter under my belt, you don't need MY advice...

On this one I can help though...


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Do you let the dog get the bumper?
> 
> /Paul


be careful not to encourage auto casting...


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Do you let the dog get the bumper?
> 
> /Paul


NO NO NO that would be a reward.


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

DarrinGreene said:


> be careful not to encourage auto casting...


What is autocasting...sounds like a newfangled fishin' reel to me.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Pas Bon said:


> What is autocasting...sounds like a newfangled fishin' reel to me.


auto casting = leaving the remote sit position without being "cast"...


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Pas Bon said:


> NO NO NO that would be a reward.




My point exactly

/Paul


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Robert has placed himself between the pup and the bumper. His presence there makes it less likely the pup will break, and put's Robert in a good position to intercept and prevent the pup getting to the bumper if he does break.


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

the excercise, he stated, is in delivery to hand, which he is using aversive (stepping on a rope) to achieve

if he wanted to really keep it low pressure/gentle he would guide the dog back to him instead of popping him with the collar

teaching with aversives is just that, it's teaching with aversives, whether it be a low level collar nic or a pop with a flat collar, it is all the same

I'm fine with what he's doing btw. It's not what I would do to encourage delivery to hand, but to each his own. I am not opposed to the aversive.

But look at it for what it is.


----------



## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Morning Darrin. Your last post had me flumoxed until I realized that you and I are talking about two different videos. I was addressing the 'steadiness' video Robert posted in post #19. You are addressing the 'delivery' video posted later.

So, with regard to the 'delivery' video, I agree that the rope is aversive. The title of the video has to do with 'fixing' a delivery to hand suggesting the dog may have had it, and then started the current shennanigans. If it's true that the dog has already learned to deliver to hand, then, IMO, a 'correction' using the rope as an aversive is warranted. 

If however, he is just introducing delivery to hand, then I agree with you entirely. It should be done by gently reeling the dog back in.

Hope that clears things up a bit. - Gotta go train my hound - later.

Chuck


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Thought that might be the case Chuck  

On little clarification on the deliver to hand video would be that as long as the dog knows HERE I wouldn't be so worried about using the aversive to remind him that HERE means HERE even with a bumper in his mouth. 

Rope guiding is for a lot younger dog than that one appears to be. One that hasn't been through obedience training actually. 

So we get back to this just being a matter of choice in terms of implements. 

Low level nic that can be applied at 300 yards if necessary vs. a pop on a collar that has a maximum range of 20-30 yards.

Personal choice.


----------



## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

A late comment on the original post. Training without the collar is fine; there are people here who do not use it, and many more of us who trained without it before we began using it.

I think there are potential pitfalls in emphasizing "low force, low pressure" training. I prefer to base training decisions on trying to promote a great attitude. Sometimes these approaches are in conflict. Specifically, instances occur when clarity is sacrificed on behalf of avoiding a forceful procedure or meaningful correction. I have seen trainers do this in person, and in my opinion some of the procedures offered in print constitute the same thing.

We can only speculate what a dog feels or thinks, but we can observe the attitude he expresses. Lack of clarity is often harmful to dogs' attitudes; more so than certain, judiciously applied force or correction.

Please understand--I am a big advocate of eliminating unnecessary force and corrections from training. I am only saying that as a guiding principle, "minimizing force" is not as effective as "maximizing attitude."

Amy Dahl


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

afdahl said:


> Please understand--I am a big advocate of eliminating unnecessary force and corrections from training. I am only saying that as a guiding principle, "minimizing force" is not as effective as "maximizing attitude."
> 
> Amy Dahl


Well said, Amy. That's what _good_ trainers do; e-collar or not.

Evan


----------



## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

afdahl said:


> A late comment on the original post. Training without the collar is fine; there are people here who do not use it, and many more of us who trained without it before we began using it.
> 
> I think there are potential pitfalls in emphasizing "low force, low pressure" training. I prefer to base training decisions on trying to promote a great attitude. Sometimes these approaches are in conflict. *Specifically, instances occur when clarity is sacrificed on behalf of avoiding a forceful procedure or meaningful correction.* I have seen trainers do this in person, and in my opinion some of the procedures offered in print constitute the same thing.
> 
> We can only speculate what a dog feels or thinks, but we can observe the attitude he expresses. Lack of clarity is often harmful to dogs' attitudes; more so than certain, judiciously applied force or correction.


Amy, that is an excellent post! So many people avoid the firm correction (read in behaviorist terms, "punishment") in an effort to not harm the dog's psyche, when, in fact they are making life harder on the dog!

Add to that, many of them are 3-4 years into training and still trying to get them to do a Senior Hunter blind. (how long do they live?? )

So it would be great if the debate could be reduced to, "what is the most effective way to apply it".




> Please understand--I am a big advocate of eliminating unnecessary force and corrections from training. I am only saying that as a guiding principle, "minimizing force" is not as effective as "maximizing attitude."
> 
> Amy Dahl


And I think we are all in agreement with this part.

Thanks,

JS


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Good analysis Amy. People that don't believe in the e-collars don't realize that one correction at the precise moment it's needed, if the dog understands the rules, may be all that is needed. A nik on sit, dog doesn't move 5 paces-he sits. If the dog is working with you and is trying, I very seldom have to burn and even nik if the dog has good basics.


----------



## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

rmilner said:


> I am one of the minority that trains without force fetch and without ecollar.


Mr. Milner, can you explain the 2 videos on your site showing you training FF with a toe hitch versus what you said on this thread? It's old but I saw nothing saying you have stopped this method and it is part of your marketing site.

http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/gundogs.php click on the gun dog video and move the cursor to the bottom of the screen for the other training videos. 

Collar or no collar, emotional pressure for some dogs can be very harsh. A tool is a tool, it's all in how you use it.


----------



## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

JS said:


> Amy, that is an excellent post! So many people avoid the firm correction (read in behaviorist terms, "punishment") in an effort to not harm the dog's psyche, when, in fact they are making life harder on the dog!


Thanks for the compliment, JS. One thing I wanted to respond to--while I am only a beginning student of behaviorism, I think that what many of us call a "correction" is different from straight punishment. I think its main effect is to distract and redirect. Even though it explicitly involves an aversive, the role of the aversive is more to get the attention of a dog that is operating at a high level of drive, setting him/her up for the redirect, than to "decrease unwanted behavior" per se.

Take a cast refusal, for instance. I have gone entirely to momentary on repeated cast refusals. The purpose of the nick is to jolt the dog out of the mindset that has him persistently heading back in the wrong direction, and to get across to him that the direction I am giving is something else. It is not to punish(=decrease) some unwanted behavior; the thing the dog is doing wrong is too hard to define to be punished effectively. What we can do, and what we do do, is put a stop to it and get the dog doing the right thing, in a larger context that he learns to do the right thing by doing it and succeeding.

Continuous, in that setting, would be more of a punishment, and I think many of us have found that momentary is more effective.

Amy Dahl


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

High Jackin the thread with all this pros and cons stuff. Evan posted up a thread that this should be discussed on.


BTW I'm not against e-collars, just trying to avoid useing one.

I'm trying to get some good discussion on training without a collar not interested in debating the issue of useing or not (on this thread)


Please use the thread below for the debate.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47447


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Pas Bon said:


> High Jackin the thread with all this pros and cons stuff. Evan posted up a thread that this should be discussed on.
> 
> 
> BTW I'm not against e-collars, just trying to avoid useing one.
> ...


Um,
Helpful new feller. You need not instruct the grizzled veterans of RTF on how to debate. That task has been mastered already.
I do want to point out that the progression of dog typed by Mr. Milner is quite a bit different than the mainstream. And possibly (as pointed out) even different than what he uses. A more mainstream flow chart is found here http://www.totalretriever.com/tips.htm
Now you have chosen no collar and that is cool. The progression stays the same. Now, are you going to use a heeling stick?

.


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Pas Bon said:


> High Jackin the thread with all this pros and cons stuff. Evan posted up a thread that this should be discussed on.
> 
> Please use the thread below for the debate.
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47447


Please don't. Debate was not its intent. Intellegent disussion was - that, and simply recognition that e-collar use in trianing retrievers has moved on from the malignant stereotypes still seen in Internet discussions.

By all means discuss. Debate, too, if you like. But that isn't what that thread is for.

Evan


----------



## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

rmilner said:


> I have found that if you change the traditional sequence of behaviors, you can get the dog trained faster with positive training than with force-based training.


Why do I find myself envisioning Jello and application on the door with a staple gun instead of a hammer? Or better yet, Jello held up there by gossamer wings? Trained faster than what? Faster *for* what?

Amy, apropos this topic, a while back glommed on to some good gospel from you: http://www.gundogmag.com/training/GD_balancingretriever_1107/index.html.

MG


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

afdahl said:


> Thanks for the compliment, JS. One thing I wanted to respond to--while I am only a beginning student of behaviorism, I think that what many of us call a "correction" is different from straight punishment. I think its main effect is to distract and redirect. Even though it explicitly involves an aversive, the role of the aversive is more to get the attention of a dog that is operating at a high level of drive, setting him/her up for the redirect, than to "decrease unwanted behavior" per se.
> 
> Take a cast refusal, for instance. I have gone entirely to momentary on repeated cast refusals. The purpose of the nick is to jolt the dog out of the mindset that has him persistently heading back in the wrong direction, and to get across to him that the direction I am giving is something else. It is not to punish(=decrease) some unwanted behavior; the thing the dog is doing wrong is too hard to define to be punished effectively. What we can do, and what we do do, is put a stop to it and get the dog doing the right thing, in a larger context that he learns to do the right thing by doing it and succeeding.
> 
> ...


I agree Amy. In your scenario of a cast refusal, using attrition can obtain a similiar result. Stopping the dog, bringing him in a few feet and recasting kills the momemtum and often produces the proper cast. Not punishment per se, but certainly a correction. 

/Paul


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> Um,
> Helpful new feller. You need not instruct the grizzled veterans of RTF on how to debate. That task has been mastered already.
> I do want to point out that the progression of dog typed by Mr. Milner is quite a bit different than the mainstream. And possibly (as pointed out) even different than what he uses. A more mainstream flow chart is found here http://www.totalretriever.com/tips.htm
> Now you have chosen no collar and that is cool. The progression stays the same. Now, are you going to use a heeling stick?
> ...













/Paul


----------



## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

/Paul,

ROFL!

Amy Dahl


----------



## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> /Paul


genius


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Pas Bon said:


> High Jackin the thread with all this pros and cons stuff. Evan posted up a thread that this should be discussed on.
> 
> 
> BTW I'm not against e-collars, just trying to avoid useing one.
> ...


LOL you can start it in any direction you like but it will go where it goes...

What you'll find is that the sequence and the methods are really no different in one "world" than the other. The training regimen and sequence, right up to FF is pretty much the same, since the collar generally isn't employed in most cases until that point.

Up until then you are teach teach teach and any aversives are applied only to the most basic of tasks, and generally by collar and rope

It's once you reach that critical point in training that you have to decide what method you're going to use to get the dog to reliably go out, fetch and return game to your hand. 

It's truthfully no different, so asking specific questions, such as how to get a more reliable remote sit, is a much better bet. except, that most of us wouldn't be worried at all about remote sit with a 4.5 mo old youngster

in fact like 3/4 of what you stated you have done is stuff that comes much later in the program, to the point where it is hard to fathom that you have done any of that stuff with enough frequency or consistency for it to be a truly "trained behavior".

that's why we have joke with you about getting some lessons. 

from experience, the open ended discussion is VERY likely to head right into the pros and cons of negative reenforcement training and e-collar use.


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> LOL you can start it in any direction you like but it will go where it goes...
> 
> What you'll find is that the sequence and the methods are really no different in one "world" than the other. The training regimen and sequence, right up to FF is pretty much the same, since the collar generally isn't employed in most cases until that point.
> 
> ...


Any thoughts on how the application of this to FT vs HT or Field vs Show bread combined with a British vs American bred dog?

/Paul


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

Evan said:


> Please don't. Debate was not its intent. Intellegent disussion was - that, and simply recognition that e-collar use in trianing retrievers has moved on from the malignant stereotypes still seen in Internet discussions.
> 
> By all means discuss. Debate, too, if you like. But that isn't what that thread is for.
> 
> Evan


Understood and I apologize for mis-speaking


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Any thoughts on how the application of this to FT vs HT or Field vs Show bread combined with a British vs American bred dog?
> 
> /Paul



yep...

don't touch it with a 10 ft pole...

just trying to speak with the OP since the thread has long since forgotten his original question


----------



## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Oh gosh, there must be a "Ron White" Joke in this thread somewhere.......


Oh Yes, "You can't fix stupid, but you can prevent it with a TT G3 Pro 500"..


----------



## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

The more I train the more I understand that I don't need the e-collar. In fact, I've trained a few dogs without the use of the collar. The dog's owners are very happy with their hunting dogs. I also train for hunt tests and I use the collar for blinds. This seems to work well for me.
I'm one of Mr Milner's biggest fans but I disagree with his comments on marks. I work the dogs on marks as soon as they start the FF training program. I do this because it tells me about the dogs attitude. If a dog is resentful of the ff then he/she will tend to blink the bumper. If you haven't done any damage then the dog will enjoy the marks. Too me, a happy dog is a dog that learns his lessons wth no damage.
I don't instil the steadness until the end of the training. That's just me and maybe I should do it earlier but my aim in taining is to get the dog to think and develop momemtum. 
I'm open to discuss any of this.


----------



## Peake (Jan 3, 2003)

Good to see "Amish" is still spoken here.
Carry On,
Peake
________
VAPORITE VAPORIZER


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> I train without a collar, because thats how I was taught and by my brother and it has served us well...I respect the heck out of E collar trainers as long as they return the same. I dont try and change them and trying to change me at this late stage of my life would be a lesson in futility..
> 
> If you ask me a question on training I will give you an answer based on what I know, if i dont know the answer I will refrain from answering. I refuse to get in a urinating match with anyone on why its the method I chose over others ...
> 
> ...


All that the term "Amish" was ever meant to state, when it originated on the old RTF format, was that it was training done "without electricity". It was never meant to be an ethnic slur or any sort of derogatory comment.

I would hope that all of us, over time, work to possibly refine our training horizons as we advance with new dogs, new needs, new limitations, more grey hairs, whatever.

For me personally, I have found that I finally chose to take the time to become more educated in how to appropriately incorporate the e-collar, as a training tool, into my own training. For years, I never felt qualified to use a collar, since I did not feel that I'd satisfied my own concerns around having enough knowledge to avoid messing up a dog with poor e-collar application.

I first touched a transmitter at age 44. I trained my first gundog retriever at age 13. I am glad I chose to finally take a look at something beyond my prior horizons and personally set boundaries. I believe that my dog currently running with marginal success in Qualifying stakes is trained in a much lower pressure, more fair environment than any dog I ever trained with my past "tennis shoe" methods. 

For me personally, it has been very, very refreshing. It has opened a whole new world of low-pressure training for advanced retriever work. 

I will state that I believe the e-collar is not the right tool for a trainer who is not willing to put in the time and effort to learn to use it in a fairly applied process. 

The e-collar is just a tool. Just like a hammer, or a drill, or a leash, or a choke chain or a sit stick. The person handling the tool is the one who determines if it is fairly utilized in a sound training process.

An e-collar is certainly not a requirement for good dog training. In fact, there are many who should not be using an e-collar. These same folks, for what it's worth, should not be training dogs at all.

Chris


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Chris I knew Amish was not a derogatory term, but to me its like being cast in the Stone Age..I have been shown the proper use of an E-collar, kind of hard not to when you are around enough dog people,so have we used one before...yes...do we incorporate in our our training ...no..Most of the people we train with use a collar, even the pro Clint uses, utilizes a collar, but not on our dogs..There is a personal family story as to why we dont use one but its not for publication on an open forum, as a a wise DVM told me one time "there is no need to bring up the past,especially when some of the particulars are no longer with us" ;-)
Let me also clear up any misconceptions about THIS non collar trainer, we dont brutalize our dogs with whips ( I will whip a dog, but not beat him, for those that dont know the difference..well) we dont use slingshots, we will pinch an ear, and we will use a heeling stick or riding crop..No cattle prods, no shooting at dogs,no bb guns..Brig wears a bark collar when we visit my friend Kelly because he doesnt like being put in the pen with Kelly's dogs.

I look at it like I look at church...you have place of worship and I have mine..I respect yours and hope you respect mine..(and I grew up in a very religious family)


----------



## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

sorry i am so late getting here.

to address the whistle stop issue, you said that your dog was sitting promptly while heeling at your side, then went on to say that the dog was not yet reliable away from your side.

i think you missed 3 important steps;

while walking at heel, introduce a tap with the heeling stick for any sit that is not immediate, and i mean right now! work with this until the dog is giving really good effort to beat the tap.

next, while walking at heel, sit the dog, but you continue forward. if the dog continues to move, bring him back to where you blew the whistle and repeat. at first, only walk a few steps. as he gets better, increase the distance to about 20 yards. you are not stopping the dog on the return yet; just call him to your side and repeat.

when the dog is doing that well, introduce a long line (15 feet). stop the dog, walk to the end of the lead and call him in. stop him at the half way point. if he continues to come in, you can use the long line by sending a "wave" down the line which will produce a tap under his chin, or bring him back to where you blew the whistle, back up and try again.

now you can start to increase the distance away from you.

above all, stay calm and keep your voice low, and remember to praise success!-Paul


----------



## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Byron Musick said:


> Oh gosh, there must be a "Ron White" Joke in this thread somewhere.......
> 
> 
> Oh Yes, "You can't fix stupid, but you can prevent it with a TT G3 Pro 500"..


I'm in a camoulflage deer blind with grease paint on my face... I have deer urine on my boots..

I'm not sure why?


----------



## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> All that the term "Amish" was ever meant to state, when it originated on the old RTF format, was that it was training done "without electricity". It was never meant to be an ethnic slur or any sort of derogatory comment.
> 
> I would hope that all of us, over time, work to possibly refine our training horizons as we advance with new dogs, new needs, new limitations, more grey hairs, whatever.
> 
> ...


I'm proud to say I helped Chris understand the proper use of a hammer in dog training. 

/paul


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I'm proud to say I helped Chris understand the proper use of a hammer in dog training.
> 
> /paul


That is true. It was a mini-sledge and it worked pretty well for the task. What a cool trick. I will keep that one filed away for the future for sure!

Chris


----------



## Pas Bon (Nov 11, 2009)

paul young said:


> sorry i am so late getting here.
> 
> to address the whistle stop issue, you said that your dog was sitting promptly while heeling at your side, then went on to say that the dog was not yet reliable away from your side.
> 
> ...


Now thats what I was looking for. 

THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!


----------



## Im_with_Brandy (Apr 22, 2010)

Pas Bon said:


> Okay here we go,
> 
> I have chosen not to force fetch or use an e-collar in my training of my new Yellow Lab Pup who is 4.5 months old.
> 
> ...


My choice to not use an E-collar was not because I was button happy nor was it because I think using collars is wrong, nor was it because I could not learn how to use one. I used one with my last dog. It was a choice to use a different method of training. Just like I chose not to use a healing stick. After all I did choose to FF. But it was just a choice for this dog. My next dog I may use an E-Collar but I doub't it.

While I did FF my pup I do not use an E-Collar or whips. I know exactly what you mean. Some people get defensive about training with an E-Collar when you tell them you don't. Some will tell you that you will never have a finished dog if you don’t use an E-Collar. Or they think the reason you don't use one is because you must not know how to condition the dog or that you think E-Collars are bad. Some come just short of calling you a PETA member. Personally I get offended by this narrow thinking.

My ESS is 4 years old next month. She has UKC HR and UH title and I am working on her AKC Spaniel Master hunter title which we have one pass. So it can be done and you can have great results. Like some one else said teach, teach, teach. I used to get funny looks at training sessions when I would drag the dog crate to the line. I healed the pup to the line and if she took a step I would send her to the crate and she would watch another dog run. After guys saw the results I was getting, I started to see some of them drag their dog’s crate to the line.


----------



## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

I could swear i seen a video awhile back on this site that Robert Milner was using a e collar while the dog was going to "specific places" on the water way?


----------



## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Matthew Hambright said:


> I could swear i seen a video awhile back on this site that Robert Milner was using a e collar while the dog was going to "specific places" on the water way?


are you sure that wasn't a Fred Hassen (sit means sit ) video you were viewing


----------



## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> are you sure that wasn't a Fred Hassen (sit means sit ) video you were viewing


LOL NO!!!!!


----------



## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I posted it but it wasnt Fred or Robert. It was Pat Nolan.


----------



## Matthew Hambright (Dec 6, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> I posted it but it wasnt Fred or Robert. It was Pat Nolan.


Your RIGHT!!! Sorry bout that I remember now!


----------



## ClaytonT (Apr 22, 2010)

Personally I like the ecollar, but if you don't use one thats your decision and I respect that. Were all in it for the same reason. First Paul nailed ur question on stop to the whistle. I have a question for all the amish trainers, how many of you use the wildrose method?


----------



## 7pntail (Jan 20, 2010)

This is an interesting discussion and I have nothing to add. Will let you pros do that. But, I am curious about Robert Milner's approach. I have your book, and I believe it is from the mid eighties. Have you changed your training philosophy, or am I missing something?


----------



## kcrumpy9 (Sep 29, 2008)

That's awesome that you're going the no e-collar, low pressure method. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Welcome to the Forum


----------



## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

I've been using Wildrose DVDs both Retriever and more recently Upland. I have 2 St Poodles and they're doing great! But I did add some other things like walking fetch, pile work etc. to help fill in the gaps.


----------



## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

Guys ,I grew up training amish,tennis shoe,whatever you want to call it.I learned the collar on my own by Dobbs,Lardy,Aurthur.From my perspective I will not revert back unless asked by a client.It seems so much easier on the dog and the owner and probably the biggest reason I can teach an owner how to reinforce a known command with the collar.I admire anyone that trains the old way you guys should proud.That includes you too Bon...hee he! Jim.....


----------



## Jim Stevenson (Mar 18, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> There are a variety of methods to train a dog. Folks sometimes forget that a collar is just a tool. In the video Robert posted he demonstrates "positive" reward based training for steadiness. What the video doesn't demonstrate is the correction for the dog actually breaking. No doubt that correction would be denying the mark or perhaps stepping on the rope to physically stop the dog. Either way it is an aversive method of training and for some dogs, a slight nick with an ecollar might be less aversive than the denying of the mark.
> 
> In this video he works on delivery to hand
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCtlRAGnsdU
> ...



Outstanding post.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2010)

I felt the same way, no force fetching and no e-collar but....after lots of frustration and day after day of training in all kinds of weather-I finally tried the e-collar with one of my Labs. It has made a big difference in the training, the time spent and results in my dogs. Keep in mind the very important fact about e-collars....THEY ARE TO BE USED NOT ABUSED....If you decide to buy one, I would recommend Tri Tronics Sport Basic, it's adequate for all trainers pros and beginners alike.


----------



## Im_with_Brandy (Apr 22, 2010)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> There are a variety of methods to train a dog. Folks sometimes forget that a collar is just a tool. In the video Robert posted he demonstrates "positive" reward based training for steadiness. What the video doesn't demonstrate is the correction for the dog actually breaking. No doubt that correction would be denying the mark or perhaps stepping on the rope to physically stop the dog. Either way it is an aversive method of training and for some dogs, a slight nick with an ecollar might be less aversive than the denying of the mark.
> 
> In this video he works on delivery to hand
> 
> ...


Like your post.

I agree timing is the biggest issue. Most handlers get better as they go. But I have seen some pretty confused dogs. Even my own dog at times. I am sure if she turned around and looked at me there would be times she would see a confused look on my face too.:???:


----------



## Rig (Mar 1, 2005)

Pas Bon said:


> So let me post up an actual question.
> 
> My dog stops to the whistle. He is highly proficient *when he is at heel*.....we walk along I hit the whistle he stops quickly.
> <snip>
> I sit him down and walk away about 30yards. Give him the recall whistle let him come to me about 1/2 way and hit the "one beep" stop whistle. He will slow down and take about 5 steps and then stop. <snip> what can I do to work on this to get him to snap into that sit just a little faster.


Enough philosophy. Let's get to practical dog training. Try this trick:

Assuming he knows his "back" cast yet (I think you said you did) and knows about retrieving multiple times from a pile, you put the dummy pile BEHIND HIM a couple of yards. Be sure he knows it is there. Leave him sitting, walk away, call him to you and whistle-sit him when he's part way to you. The moment he stops in response to the whistle, cast BACK to get a bumper. Refine this after a few reps to require the butt on the ground before you cast Back for the retrieve reward. Now make that your standard and rep it out.

Repeat until he "gets it" that every stop is followed by an opportunity to go make a retrieve from a location that is BEHIND him. He will start locking it up much better when he stops. Then replace the pile with a few wing clip pigeons. Watch him stop like a roping horse!

When he starts "popping" from this (anticipating and volunteering the sit) call him HERE all the way to you a few times. Let him see that both stopping on the whistle AND coming to you get rewarded, it all hangs on which command you gave. Keep him in balance. 

Tip: For efficiency, you can have a pile at both ends of a recall. (Drop discards behind you to create the second pile.) Tip # 2: when you first start, only have him come a few yards before stopping and casting back. Make it easy for him to stop by preventing him from getting up a head of steam.

The better they like to retrieve, the faster they learn from drills like this. This is the principle of the "high value reward." (BTW, this is a multi-day drill if I didn't make that clear.) YMMV because how much his stops can come to mimic that roping horse will depend in part on his desire level and innate smarts. Well, yours too for that matter. 

Let us know how it goes.

Rig


----------



## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

I've been working without the collar and getting good results. My client base is hunters and none of them own collars. I think that Robert Milner has got it right and I follow what he says.
My UK lab arrives from Scotland on May 5. The breeder is a friend and they don't train with the collar at all. 
Good luck with your training.


----------

