# Searched and took her to the Vet... heat cycle



## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Okay my BLF is supposed to be going in heat. which the vet said she is starting to after doing a vaginal swab and looking at the cells on a slide, I still didn't really get the question answered tho by the vet. and I did try the search function there were just ALOT of threads about heat cycles

Started to see blood drops last friday on the floor only a drop a day till today there were multiple,* do I start counting the days she is in heat last friday at the first blood drop or do I start counting today*.

And... How much is a progesterone test for you all, I was planning on doing 2 to 3 but they wanted 130 a piece for them and am not so sure now and was thinking of just dropping her off at the studs place for around a week... What would you do? thanks


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Progesterone at my vet is less than $100 for 3 test. You pay for them in groups of 3


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

They can get a good idea of heat cycle by looking at a smear but the way the cells look. The cells will change shape. Not a vet but did work for one while in fire academy and paramedic school.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

thank you very much


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Start your count from last Friday, day 9 you should have progesterone draw. If you're doing a standing put them together on day 10 if they tie do it again on day 14.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

It's amazing at the range of cost from vet to vet. Mine is $98 for set of 3 test and breed when progesterone is at 5 no matter what day it is. Every dog ovulates at diff times during there cycle.


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

We go by / I thought it is back up 1 day from the day you first see blood and count that as day 1. So much can very, progesterone is by far the best bet to know for sure! I like to start progesterone around day 8 and then usually every other day until we get the magic number.

Or just go for natural. she will flag when ready and the boys go nuts when she is ready too, again generally speaking. But progestorone really tells the truth as your mileage may very!

I mainly use 2 different vets. 1 is 2 minutes from my house in suburban city with a new building, several vets, and HIGH prices. The other is my favorite country vet, treats farm animals, is 1 hour drive, but 50% cheaper than the close one. I think I pay about $60 for the progest test at my fav country vet !


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

We are lucky here. After the first progesterone test, Phoenix labs gives a 50% rate for each thereafter (same bitch) to encourage folks to follow thru. They even honored the discount when I had to use a 2nd vet last year.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Wow, thank you for all your responses. I am doing a progesterone tommorrow just to see where she is at, I found another guy that charges 60 a time - and fairly quick turnaround on the results.


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## Jim Stevenson (Mar 18, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> That's wrong too. You breed 2 and 4 days after she reaches 5.


Yep and TYPICALLY, you do surgical AI 3 days after 5.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I've used multiple vets including repro specialists, never got or heard of a 3 for 1 progesterone package, since it takes as many as it takes. Depending on the bitch and taking weekends/holidays into consideration because the blood is sent out and results are back next a.m. around here, I usually do the first draw around day 6-8. I pay around $70/test, usually end up doing 2-4 tests. If the stud owner is willing to have the bitch for a week instead of timing with progesterone, go for it. Slides = waste of money in my experience, especially when there is such an accurate alternative.


As far as the number of ties, up to the stud owner.


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## Jim Stevenson (Mar 18, 2010)

obx4me said:


> I think I pay about $60 for the progest test at my fav country vet !


I drove 30 minutes across town to pay $65 to vet doing the AI instead of $95 at my vet across street.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

copenhawgen said:


> Yep and TYPICALLY, you do surgical AI 3 days after 5.


OR when the progesterone hits the magic number. ;-)


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> That's wrong too. You breed 2 and 4 days after she reaches 5.


I guess everyone has there fav time then. When I contacted mary tatum she told me to be there the next day when the prof hits 5. When I talked to mrs Mackey yesterday about breeding to sailor she told me to be at her vet when it hits 5 so that's what I was going with. To each his own I guess


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

This is a learning exp for me and have enjoyed this thread and the info.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> That's wrong too. You breed 2 and 4 days after she reaches 5.


Yep, reason being (for those who don't have a lot of experience with breeding) is that 5 is when the bitch ovulates. It takes 48 hours for the eggs to be mature and thus ready to be fertilized. 

The advantage to using progesterone tests rather than leaving her with a stud dog for a week is that knowing the ovulation date also gives you a better indication of whelp date. When a bitch hits 5, mark your calendar for a whelp date of 63 days later (plus or minus a day). If you drop her off with a stud dog and just do breedings "when they feel like it" you may end up sitting staring at her in the whelping box for a week not knowing when the action will start.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> Yep, reason being (for those who don't have a lot of experience with breeding) is that 5 is when the bitch ovulates. It takes 48 hours for the eggs to be mature and thus ready to be fertilized.
> 
> The advantage to using progesterone tests rather than leaving her with a stud dog for a week is that knowing the ovulation date also gives you a better indication of whelp date. When a bitch hits 5, mark your calendar for a whelp date of 63 days later (plus or minus a day). If you drop her off with a stud dog and just do breedings "when they feel like it" you may end up sitting staring at her in the whelping box for a week not knowing when the action will start.


So it's 63 days from the day the progesterone is at 5? Not the day you breed? Very helpful. Thanks.


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## Jim Stevenson (Mar 18, 2010)

Rainmaker said:


> OR when the progesterone hits the magic number. ;-)


What is this magical number of which you speak?

Seriously.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

copenhawgen said:


> What is this magical number of which you speak?
> 
> Seriously.


What my repro vet tells me it is. ;-) With frozen, he wants to see mid to upper teens for the implant, last I remember anyway, I don't do AI unless absolutely forced to. There is a very small window, 12 hours, for frozen. A little bigger for fresh-chilled.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Listen to Nancy and or Melanie.
Sue


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

This has been very helpful, I am sure proud to be in the company of all of you knowledgable people.


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## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

It is my understanding that the slides only tell you if she's in heat, not when she ovulates. So you'd still need to do progesterone testing for accuracy. I start testing on day 8 for a baseline, then every other. I still do progesterone with natural breedings, some stud owners will only try a couple ties and you want them to count. Also, as Melanie said, you're better prepared.


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Once it hits 5 does it start going up rapidly or does it just depend on the female


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

You breed 5 days after the LH surge......;-)


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

JepDog said:


> It is my understanding that the slides only tell you if she's in heat, not when she ovulates. So you'd still need to do progesterone testing for accuracy. I start testing on day 8 for a baseline, then every other. I still do progesterone with natural breedings, some stud owners will only try a couple ties and you want them to count. Also, as Melanie said, you're better prepared.


No, you can tell when they ovulate, it's just so many vets are off in their readings.

Proestrus is the first stage of heat. The bitch shows a variable amount of vulvar swelling and vaginal discharge. The discharge is most characteristically bloody and serum-like (serosanguinous) but may range in color from milky to frankly bloody. Male dogs are attracted to the bitch but she will not stand for breeding, and often tucks her tail under tightly, sits down, or turns on the male dog. This stage lasts an average of 9 days with a range from 0 to 17 days.


*Vaginal cytology specimens contain a population of epithelial cells that undergo a gradual transition from a predominance of non-cornified cells to complete cornification. Red blood cells (RBCs), white blood cells (WBCs), and bacteria are present early and disappear as the bitch nears estrus. Veterinarians can only make estimates from these swabs as to when a dog may come into standing heat.
*

Progesterone is low until near the end of proestrus, when it may begin to rise slightly. Estrogen is the primary hormone being produced, and is the hormone responsible for the physical and behavioral changes in the bitch, and the changes in the vaginal epithelial cells seen by vaginal cytology. Under the influence of estrogen, the vaginal wall becomes very thick and more cornified cells are collected on the vaginal swab.

Estrus
Estrus is the technical name for standing heat. In this stage, the bitch allows mounting and breeding by the male dog. Her vulva is still swollen but may be softer than in proestrus. Vaginal discharge is still present, and classically attains a straw color at this point, although in many dogs it remains serosanguinous. This stage lasts an average of 9 days with a range from 3 to 21 days.


*A bitch is in estrus by cytology when she has 100% cornification with >50% anuclear squames. *There are virtually no RBCs, WBCs, or debris present. *Veterinarians cannot predict ovulation time prospectively by vaginal cytology alone.
*

Progesterone rises abruptly early in estrus, and estrogen falls off somewhat. The most important hormonal event taking place at this time is the release of a surge of luteinizing hormone (LH). The significance of this is described later. Ovulation occurs during estrus. Until a bitch ovulates, she cannot conceive. Ovulation is the most important event occurring in the heat cycle.


Diestrus

The bitch enters diestrus when she no longer stands to be bred. This is not an all-or-none phenomenon; some dogs are classified as being in diestrus by vaginal cytology and will still stand to be bred. The vulva will gradually decline in size through this stage. Some dogs continue to exhibit vaginal discharge, which usually is mucoid. Most dogs have no vaginal discharge during this stage. Diestrus lasts an average of 60 days and occurs in every dog, whether they were bred or not, and whether or not they conceive.


*As the bitch enters diestrus, there is an abrupt shift back to complete non-cornification and WBCs appear on vaginal cytology specimens. This occurs consistently six days after ovulation.

*
Progesterone remains high throughout this period. All other hormones are fairly low until the time of whelping.

Anestrus
This is the interval between periods of estrous activity. This is a time of reproductive quiescence, when there is minimal hormonal activity and the dog shows no outward physical changes or unusual behaviors. Anestrus lasts an average of 4.5 to 5 months. *At this stage, vaginal cytology specimens contain only a scant number cells, all of which are non-cornified.

*


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

fowl hunter said:


> So it's 63 days from the day the progesterone is at 5? Not the day you breed? Very helpful. Thanks.


Its starts about 48 hrs after the AI is done, that's when eggs are fertilized. I had AI done on Sat then on Monday, started count down from Tuesday.
5 is when she starts to ovulate but the higher the number the better the chances with AI is. My girl was at 7.6 on Thursday and when she did AI on Saturday the cervex was wide open. This was day 12 from start of cycle.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> I've used multiple vets including repro specialists, never got or heard of a 3 for 1 progesterone package, since it takes as many as it takes.


We have just experienced "it takes as many as it takes". No season is the same for the bitch. Talked to the sperm bank and they said, "If only the bitches would read the text books about this." This time, our female was s-l-o-w-e-r to ovulate than last time. 

Tests 1,2,3,and 4 she was at .2 (we were thinking something was broken at the lab).
Test #5 she was at 1.7 -- taken on a Monday. Vet said wait until Thurs. for another test.
Test #6 on Thurs., results in Friday morning, she had zoomed to 9.0.
Vets did a frozen sperm surgical implant that afternoon. 
This was day #14 of her season.

At some time between Mon. and Thurs. she went from 1.7 to 9.0. On Tues. or Wed. she must have hit the magical 5. 

Last litter she did about the same. From a Friday test result and then re-test on Monday with results on Tuesday she zoomed to 9.0. Repro vets did one side by side AI late Tuesday afternoon. 12 puppies. The side by side AI was done on day #12 of her season. 

Why 6 progesterone tests? The first one was too early. That was our fault. And then she was slow to ovulate which meant test after test until BINGO. $120 per test plus a $19 office visit= $139 per test. Plus a vaginal slide her first visit was $56. That's $890 wrapped up in progesterone tests. When I picked her up, I wrote a check to the repro clinic for $1,296. (which included the surgical implant). On top of that is the stud fee and the fees of the sperm bank to ship the frozen sperm Fed Ex Overnite, rental of the canister, return of the canister, phone calls, faxes, yada yada. However, this is Ruby's last hurrah. No more breedings; it's our last chance to get another Ruby puppy so it's worth it. 

Once you are in it, you are in it. No backing out until it is over. And now we count the days on the calendar for the ultrasound. 

Helen


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

metalone67 said:


> Its starts about 48 hrs after the AI is done, that's when eggs are fertilized. I had AI done on Sat then on Monday, started count down from Tuesday.
> 5 is when she starts to ovulate but the higher the number the better the chances with AI is. My girl was at 7.6 on Thursday and when she did AI on Saturday the cervex was wide open. This was day 12 from start of cycle.


Once again, counting starts from ovulation, not breeding date. Ovulation generally occurs when the bitch hits 5. If one is doing progesterone testing, count to 63 from the day the bitch hits 5. If one is not doing progesterone testing, figure a window of 58-63 days from the breeding, because you won't know when the bitch ovulated.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> The advantage to using progesterone tests rather than leaving her with a stud dog for a week is that knowing the ovulation date also gives you a better indication of whelp date. When a bitch hits 5, mark your calendar for a whelp date of 63 days later (plus or minus a day). If you drop her off with a stud dog and just do breedings "when they feel like it" you may end up sitting staring at her in the whelping box for a week not knowing when the action will start.


Mel is right on with this. 

Don and I also have this theory. If natural breedings are spaced somewhat far apart (some do 3 breedings and space them apart every other day) we think this is why you can get very small puppies. It makes sense to us that conception can take place at all 3 ties over this time period. But when the uterus says times up, all of the puppies are born so you can get some small ones that were conceived a few days after the rest. That's our theory for runts.

Helen


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Once again, counting starts from ovulation, not breeding date. Ovulation generally occurs when the bitch hits 5. If one is doing progesterone testing, count to 63 from the day the bitch hits 5. If one is not doing progesterone testing, figure a window of 58-63 days from the breeding, because you won't know when the bitch ovulated.


So she hit 5 Wednesday and was AI on Saturday. I count from Wednesday before sperm was inserted? That's no way accurate. Its 48 hours after the AI was done. This is what reproduction vet told me and since I was doing a follow up on Monday, Tuesday would be the day she told me to count from.


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## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

Thanks Nancy. I've never done the slide. The vet office tried to talk me into it this past month but I got the impression they couldn't tell me anything other then when she was in standing heat as you mentioned. I think I'll stay with the progesterone


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

metalone67 said:


> Start your count from last Friday, day 9 you should have progesterone draw. If you're doing a standing put them together on day 10 if they tie do it again on day 14.


I disagree on the time span giving for the two ties(day 10, then day 14). I think day 10 could be too early for a tie. I think ties 4 days apart is too far apart. For natural breedings, we have this system: first tie in morning, 2nd tie that evening, 3rd tie the following evening (which allows for a 24 hr. rest between ties to build up more sperm).

We think the first tie is usually shooting blanks (unless it is a well used stud dog). One time Don was gone and I was left in charge to handle a natural breeding with our Golden Retriever male. The bitch was left with us. I did 5 ties. Sure put a smile on our GR's face. He was very disappointed when it came time for No. 6. and she was not here any more. 
She had 10 puppies. 

Helen


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## Jim Stevenson (Mar 18, 2010)

Here's a link to pics of a surgical AI.

http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/ai.html

I looked for the scar from my dog's last surgical AI approx 50 days ago but it has disappeared.


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## Centerfield Retrievers (Jan 28, 2007)

helencalif said:


> I disagree on the time span giving for the two ties(day 10, then day 14). I think day 10 could be too early for a tie. I think ties 4 days apart is too far apart. For natural breedings, we have this system: first tie in morning, 2nd tie that evening, 3rd tie the following evening (which allows for a 24 hr. rest between ties to build up more sperm).
> 
> We think the first tie is usually shooting blanks (unless it is a well used stud dog). *One time Don was gone and I was left in charge to handle a natural breeding with our Golden Retriever male. The bitch was left with us. I did 5 ties. Sure put a smile on our GR's face. He was very disappointed when it came time for No. 6. and she was not here any more. *
> She had 10 puppies.
> ...


Too funny...


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

Tests are $75 here each time.


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

metalone67 said:


> So she hit 5 Wednesday and was AI on Saturday. I count from Wednesday before sperm was inserted? That's no way accurate. Its 48 hours after the AI was done. This is what reproduction vet told me and since I was doing a follow up on Monday, Tuesday would be the day she told me to count from.


Metalone67

Yes, it's 63 days from the day she ovulated...before she was bred...is when puppies are due.

Marcy


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

metalone67 said:


> So she hit 5 Wednesday and was AI on Saturday. I count from Wednesday before sperm was inserted? That's no way accurate. Its 48 hours after the AI was done. This is what reproduction vet told me and since I was doing a follow up on Monday, Tuesday would be the day she told me to count from.


Dude, you count from wherever you want. But pretty much anyone who breeds on a regular basis and knows what they are talking about counts 63 days from the day of ovulation. I've got two litters on the ground now, whelped 63 days from day of ovulation, not from the days they bred, which were quite different. One got bred the day BEFORE she ovulated, one 2 days AFTER she ovulated, per progesterone. I've done it plenty of times without progesterone testing, it's all over the place counting from day of breeding.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

helencalif said:


> I disagree on the time span giving for the two ties(day 10, then day 14). I think day 10 could be too early for a tie. I think ties 4 days apart is too far apart. For natural breedings, we have this system: first tie in morning, 2nd tie that evening, 3rd tie the following evening (which allows for a 24 hr. rest between ties to build up more sperm).
> 
> We think the first tie is usually shooting blanks (unless it is a well used stud dog). One time Don was gone and I was left in charge to handle a natural breeding with our Golden Retriever male. The bitch was left with us. I did 5 ties. Sure put a smile on our GR's face. He was very disappointed when it came time for No. 6. and she was not here any more.
> She had 10 puppies.
> ...


This was my experience with my one bitch had a decent litter and she was still receptive. I agree with your earlier statement that all bitches are different.
I


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Dude, you count from wherever you want. But pretty much anyone who breeds on a regular basis and knows what they are talking about counts 63 days from the day of ovulation. I've got two litters on the ground now, whelped 63 days from day of ovulation, not from the days they bred, which were quite different. One got bred the day BEFORE she ovulated, one 2 days AFTER she ovulated, per progesterone. I've done it plenty of times without progesterone testing, it's all over the place counting from day of breeding.


Did you breed when she hit 5?
Well we'll see from your suggestion they will be here April 3 and the vets calculation will be April 9. Ill let you know what day.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

metalone67 said:


> Did you breed when she hit 5?


As my post just said, one bred the day before she ovulated (which is 5). The other bred two days after she ovulated (5). I normally try to get the female to the stud within 48 hours of ovulation (when she hits 5 or close enough). I normally have to drive a fair piece and try to get one tie so I don't have to leave my bitch or make another trip.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

metalone67 said:


> Did you breed when she hit 5?
> Well we'll see from your suggestion they will be here April 3 and the vets calculation will be April 9. Ill let you know what day.


For the sake of your dog, I'll give it one last try. Look at the chart on post 29. Do you see where ovulation happens at 5? Do you see where the count is from there? Might want to make sure you understood your repro vet correctly and are counting the same number of days she is, from the same day. Regardless, good luck, and maybe have her box ready by April 1st, JIC.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> For the sake of your dog, I'll give it one last try. Look at the chart on post 29. Do you see where ovulation happens at 5? Do you see where the count is from there? Might want to make sure you understood your repro vet correctly and are counting the same number of days she is, from the same day. Regardless, good luck, and maybe have her box ready by April 1st, JIC.


THIS is VERY good advice....I would bet the FARM you have pups several days before the 9th


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> For the sake of your dog, I'll give it one last try. Look at the chart on post 29. Do you see where ovulation happens at 5? Do you see where the count is from there? Might want to make sure you understood your repro vet correctly and are counting the same number of days she is, from the same day. Regardless, good luck, and maybe have her box ready by April 1st, JIC.


See what's confusing is gestation is when egg becomes fertile, but in reality its when she ovulates. So how many days is it once the egg becomes fertile?


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> For the sake of your dog, I'll give it one last try. Look at the chart on post 29. Do you see where ovulation happens at 5? Do you see where the count is from there? Might want to make sure you understood your repro vet correctly and are counting the same number of days she is, from the same day. Regardless, good luck, and maybe have her box ready by April 1st, JIC.


Great now Im freaking out. Im calling tomorrow.


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## Jim Stevenson (Mar 18, 2010)

metalone67 said:


> See what's confusing is gestation is when egg becomes fertile, but in reality its when she ovulates. So how many days is it once the egg becomes fertile?


They have puppies when progesterone drops. That is a function of when they ovulated. I think their progesterone levels are around 1 when they whelp which is 63 days +/- 1 day from ovulation.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

metalone67 said:


> See what's confusing is gestation is when egg becomes fertile, but in reality its when she ovulates. So how many days is it once the egg becomes fertile?


Dude. How we can spell it out to you more clearly?
--------------------
"Yep, reason being (for those who don't have a lot of experience with breeding) is that 5 is when the bitch ovulates. It takes 48 hours for the eggs to be mature and thus ready to be fertilized."


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> Dude. How we can spell it out to you more clearly?
> --------------------
> "Yep, reason being (for those who don't have a lot of experience with breeding) is that 5 is when the bitch ovulates. It takes 48 hours for the eggs to be mature and thus ready to be fertilized."


I get it, its 63 days from ovulation and 61 days from fertilization.


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## Jim Stevenson (Mar 18, 2010)

metalone67 said:


> I get it, its 63 days from ovulation.




Period. +/- 1 day. I didn't know this until today either. From a male perspective, I always thought females gave birth when they got so big and fat and swollen it looked like they were going to pop. Evidently it's a hormone thing.


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## Tollwest (Oct 22, 2008)

Definitely you need to count 63 days from ovulation, not from day of breeding. I have had quite a high percentage of litters that have been born 58-59 days after first breeding date! If you are not prepared for it, it can lead to quite the surprise LOL


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Melanie Foster said:


> The advantage to using progesterone tests rather than leaving her with a stud dog for a week is that knowing the ovulation date also gives you a better indication of whelp date. When a bitch hits 5, mark your calendar for a whelp date of 63 days later (plus or minus a day). If you drop her off with a stud dog and just do breedings "when they feel like it" you may end up sitting staring at her in the whelping box for a week not knowing when the action will start.


Agree... Unless your girl's name is Sonya and she's carrying a big (9 in both cases) litter, then she'll whelp on day 59-60 from that 5.0 ng point. But, she's been consistent, bless her little heart... so it's not ALL about the 63 days, that can change w/ how crowded mom is too. Last year we fostered a few from a litter that was born 5 days early w/ respect to 5.0 ng progesterone. Large litters often ask to be born early, but just another wrench to toss into the equation. I will not do a litter w/o knowing progesterone anymore regardless.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

So, if I use your guys suggestion there is a good chance I could see puppies on March 31st which would be so cool, as it is my Birthday.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

metalone67 said:


> So, if I use your guys suggestion there is a good chance I could see puppies on March 31st which would be so cool, as it is my Birthday.


That would be pretty early, based on the day you said she hit 5. I've not seen much variance in the 63 days, usually a day either side is about it. Current litters were 11 and 3 pups, 62 & 63 days. Sometimes a huge litter will whelp a little earlier, often a small litter, 1-2 pups, won't trigger whelping at all and a csection is needed.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Nancy, Kim or Melanie might correct me on this, as I'm certainly not a breeder, but my understanding is the term "gestation" refers to a female who is carrying an implanted embryo.

Thus, there is a short gap between ovulation, fertilization, development of the zygote and implantation which is not technically "gestation".

It's been a long time since I took embryology though :-?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

KNorman said:


> Nancy, Kim or Melanie might correct me on this, as I'm certainly not a breeder, but my understanding is the term "gestation" refers to a female who is carrying an implanted embryo.
> 
> Thus, there is a short gap between ovulation, fertilization, development of the zygote and implantation which is not technically "gestation".


Gestation is the period of development from fertilization of the egg(s) to birth.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> Gestation is the period of development from fertilization of the egg(s) to birth.


Thanks Kim, I stand corrected.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> Gestation is the period of development from fertilization of the egg(s) to birth.


Ok here I go again, so gestation is 63 days, correct?
But you said 63 days from when she ovulated.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

metalone67 said:


> Ok here I go again, so gestation is 63 days, correct?
> But you said 63 days from when she ovulated.


Don't worry about the big words. ;-) Whelp date will be 63 days (plus or minus a day) from ovulation.

One footnote on the above information. It is not the progesterone level that truly give accurate information on ovulation. It is estrogen that would tell us that, but there is not currently a way to measure estrogen levels. Progesterone levels strongly correlate with estrogen levels so we use that as our marker. 

I have only had two bitches (coincidentally sisters) who didn't read the book and thus their progesterone levels did not accurately predict whelping dates. One whelped three days "early" and the other was four days "late." The former happened to be a surprise and we quickly jumped into action. The latter was a painful few nights with no sleep.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Does anyone use LH tests on dogs? Why/why not?

The human form is cheap and accurate, you buy them at the grocery store. I have wondered why there is no mention of them for dogs.

I hope I'm not hijacking in a bad way...


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

mitty said:


> Does anyone use LH tests on dogs? Why/why not?
> 
> The human form is cheap and accurate, you buy them at the grocery store. I have wondered why there is no mention of them for dogs.
> 
> I hope I'm not hijacking in a bad way...


No, you're not hijacking. ;-) We don't use them because our best repro vets don't have them available for us.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Here you go> All you have to do is put in the breeding dates.

http://www.debbiejensen.com/date.html


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> Human tests measure HCG HUMAN not canine. They don't work on dogs



That's a different test. There's the LH test that helps you predict ovulation---it detects the LH surge from the pituitary that triggers ovulation.

The hCG test detects hCG which is produced by the embryo.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

truthseeker said:


> Here you go> All you have to do is put in the breeding dates.
> 
> http://www.debbiejensen.com/date.html


This will NOT reliably give you a whelp date. No offense to you personally truthseeker, but y'know, there have been a lot of experienced breeders who have commented on this thread. You all can take it or leave it. And you wonder why the forum veterans get frustrated. 

*We speak from experience* and yet there always seems to be someone that...oh whatever. Nevermind.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

mitty said:


> That's a different test. There's the LH test that helps you predict ovulation---it detects the LH surge from the pituitary that triggers ovulation.
> 
> The hCG test detects hCG which is produced by the embryo.


Trust me, Nancy knows this stuff.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

I know some of the vets use them:

http://www.petstruly.com/3398.html

Edit: this is a blood test. The human LH test at the stores detects it in urine. Too bad there's not a canine version.


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## wendelb68 (Dec 2, 2009)

Metalone, 

Your female will whelp when she is ready. Be ready as has been suggested and get ready for a ride. I have had a female that acted like nothing was going on and when I checked on her an hour later she was in labor and having a pup. Friend suggested to me that a watched pot never boils.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

But even Synbiotics recommends following up with a progesterone test:

_Synbiotics recommends an additional progesterone test be run 72 hours post-LH surge to confirm a rise in progesterone. 

*Q.*Why do I need a “confirming” progesterone test after a positive Witness LH® test result? 
*A.* Due to the pulsatile nature of LH activity in the bitch, there is a small chance that a positive Witness LH® test result can be obtained due to identification of a baseline fluctuation rather than the true LH surge. Confirming a rise in progesterone before actually performing the insemination will easily identify those few instances where a positive Witness LH® test result is due to identification of LH baseline fluctuation. _


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

The value of this thread is listening to the experienced breeders stating what WORKS. Following that advice is prudent.

Who the heck has a week to take off work guessing on a bitch's whelping day when you can do a simple progesterone test giving you a very accurate delivery date?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

I was not trying to rock the boat, but it worked good for me and I think that gives the first timer a good look at what's going on. We all know that pups can come from 59 to 65 day. just give a good starting point.
Keith


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I am getting ready to breed my almost 10 yr old male that has proximal droplets, to my 3.5 yr old. Because of the male's droplets , my repro suggests that we MAKE sure the semen is there ON THE DAY. 
We will be doing progesterone testing and keeping serum in the freezer, when the prog rises ,they want to see the serum to figure out what day the LH surge was. From there they said we will breed at the 5th or 6th day ,after the LH surge. (I can't remember which). But I will let you know in a few weeks.
They said that Hutch's #5 is an AVERAGE for when ALL bitch's ovulate.(figured out by a statistician)..... That some can/do ovulate before or after that #. ( I have heard that from another repro vet also). Most or alot do ovulate at 5 ,but not all bitches have read Hutch's book.
Just figured I throw that in the ring...


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

truthseeker said:


> I was not trying to rock the boat, but it worked good for me and I think that gives the first timer a good look at what's going on. We all know that pups can come from 59 to 65 day. just give a good starting point.
> Keith


Keith, that is old school when folks used to breed on days 10 and 12 of heat cycles. 

What we're trying to explain is that by using progesterone testing, not only do you have verification (with the exception of a few trouble makers) that you are getting the breeding done during that limited window when fertilization can take place, but also can almost pinpoint the whelping date. I'm not sure why the message isn't coming through loud and clear?


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Melanie Foster said:


> This will NOT reliably give you a whelp date. No offense to you personally truthseeker, but y'know, there have been a lot of experienced breeders who have commented on this thread. You all can take it or leave it. And you wonder why the forum veterans get frustrated.
> 
> *We speak from experience* and yet there always seems to be someone that...oh whatever. Nevermind.


I'm not doubting what you guys are saying, but no one is answering my question.
If gestation is when the egg is fertilized then why is gestation being said from when she ovulates (no fertilized egg)?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The problem with the LH surge is some bitches stall around the 3-4 mark and if you don't confirm ovulation, you may be off. I have been winging it but I have been warned. Some of the repro vets learn like the experienced breeders do, by trial and error and no one likes having a bitch miss. I have one that goes from 3.2 to over 40 in 3 days, I have one that needs to be bred after she reaches 14. 



> first tie in morning, 2nd tie that evening, 3rd tie the following evening (which allows for a 24 hr. rest between ties to build up more sperm).


That's only 8 hours between the 1st and 2nd tie not 24 hours. My guess is the 2nd tie is pretty useless.
I'm not answering these threads anymore-let the experts with a couple of breedings take over.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

So Nancy 
I am assuming that my vet will have me continue to prog test until after 5ng? Are you familiar with the protocol I explained?
Did I get it right? When they test the serum that had been frozen , they are testing for the LH surge and there is a lab (or in house) test they will use to test for the LH?


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

metalone67 said:


> I'm not doubting what you guys are saying, but no one is answering my question.
> If gestation is when the egg is fertilized then why is gestation being said from when she ovulates (no fertilized egg)?


I think it's because no one knows when the sperm met the egg and impregnated it. If I understand it correctly, there is about a 3 day window when the eggs can be fertilized. We can know when ovulation happened, if we do the tests, so that gives us a definitive time to base things on.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

Howard N said:


> I think it's because no one knows when the sperm met the egg and impregnated it. If I understand it correctly, there is about a 3 day window when the eggs can be fertilized. We can know when ovulation happened, if we do the tests, so that gives us a definitive time to base things on.


Phew. Thank you St. Howard. :smile:


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Howard N said:


> I think it's because no one knows when the sperm met the egg and impregnated it. If I understand it correctly, there is about a 3 day window when the eggs can be fertilized. We can know when ovulation happened, if we do the tests, so that gives us a definitive time to base things on.


and I get that, but if let's say the breeding happened 3 days after that and it takes about 48 hours for the eggs to be fertile, that's a total of 5 days that the due date could be off.
I'm trying to learn here not frustrate anyone.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> So Nancy
> I am assuming that my vet will have me continue to prog test until after 5ng? Are you familiar with the protocol I explained?
> Did I get it right? When they test the serum that had been frozen , they are testing for the LH surge and there is a lab (or in house) test they will use to test for the LH?


My repro vet has always done the progesterones and that is my experience with them. No LH. If everything goes as planned, day 3 after ovulation and day 5 after LH seems correct if it is linear. I have winged it with a 4.3 and estimated ovulation to be the next day and it has worked, but I have been warned they can stall which throws you off. I have not had one stall but my friend has one stall and she ended up doing like 6 progesterones and getting successfully bred around day 19 with a big litter.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

metalone67 said:


> and I get that, but if let's say the breeding happened 3 days after that and it takes about 48 hours for the eggs to be fertile, that's a total of 5 days that the due date could be off.
> I'm trying to learn here not frustrate anyone.


We could not have been any clearer. Best of luck.

OK, I'm editing this because, believe it or not, I'm going to be a peanut. (Take notice because this won't happen again in the near future!) Met, you are driving yourself, and us , crazy because you are trying to overanalyze everything. Stop trying to juggle all those fertilization/gestation/etc terms and just let them go. 63 days from ovulation. None of that other stuff matters. OK?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

metalone how about this.
GESTATION is 58-65 +/- days from the first breeding.
WHELPING will be 63 (+/- 1 )days from day of ovulation, which in the vast majority of bitches is 5 ng.

I would rather go with window # 2....


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Nancy How did you figure out 14 was your bitch's #?


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Nancy How did you figure out 14 was your bitch's #?


Because one heat she was not bleeding heavily but the boys all of a sudden were letting me know she was hott. I went down for a progesterone thinking she was beginning (it was day 6 from when I saw blood) and she was at 13.4. I couldn't breed to the stud until the next day so she had to be 14+ and she had 10 pups. I thought it was the Fido-Vite. Prior to that she has had litters of 4 and 5 bred on the classic days at 2 and 4 days after 5 and the last time was a disappointing 3. Next time she is getting bred later.


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## hughest (Oct 5, 2007)

VERY INTERESTING STUFF. Thanks Nancy and Melanie. 

BTW - Melanie - you made me laugh TWICE in this thread!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

metalone67 said:


> and I get that, but if let's say the breeding happened 3 days after that and it takes about 48 hours for the eggs to be fertile, that's a total of 5 days that the due date could be off.
> I'm trying to learn here not frustrate anyone.


I think you are having a brain freeze!

The sperm and eggs both need to be there at the same time, right? You can put the sperm there but you aren't gonna get the puppies unless the eggs are there too! 

Since placing sperm in the reproductive tract won't get you puppies _unless she has ovulated,_ you count from ovulation. 

The progesterone tests help you figure out when ovulation occurred, so that you can get the sperm in the bitch at the optimal time: If you set the breeding too early, the sperm will die before she ovulates. If you set the breeding too late, the eggs die. And things in between.

No, I haven't bred puppies but this is basic mammalian reproductive biology. Some of us have tried ourselves.

I hope this helps.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

This thread is so great, thank you all for helping me out- I went and had blood drawn today for a Progesterone test- found a vet 2 hours away that does it for $25.00 A TIME i was so happy 1 day to get the results by mailing them but still and having one done tom. just to see where she is at and how fast she is rising. today is day 6 so far as I know, and 1 more before the lab closes this weekend hoping to do the breeding at the beginning of next week


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

JustinS said:


> This thread is so great, thank you all for helping me out- I went and had blood drawn today for a Progesterone test- found a vet 2 hours away that does it for $25.00 A TIME i was so happy 1 day to get the results by mailing them but still and having one done tom. just to see where she is at and how fast she is rising. today is day 6 so far as I know, and 1 more before the lab closes this weekend hoping to do the breeding at the beginning of next week


Hope you have a car and not a truck if driving 2 hours away to save. Good luck with your breeding


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I just mailed it priority mail they said that it would be there the next day and the vet said that they normally get the mail before noon


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2012)

JustinS said:


> I just mailed it priority mail they said that it would be there the next day and the vet said that they normally get the mail before noon


Justin,

I don't mean to concern you but most vets have a lab pick up scheduled and you don't have to ship it yourself. Any idea why you had to mail it youself?

Melanie


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Melanie
 It sounds like he is mailing it to the vet for then a pick up.....


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I just heard of these guys from a friend they are down in sioux center, ia. The vets here in town charge anywhere from 80 to 130 a time because they pull the blood and then pay the other labs to do the test, the vet down there does it themselves so I just mailed it to them to avoid the extra cost. so total it cost me 56 dollars to have my vet pull the blood, spin it, mail it down there and then 25 for the test.


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

JustinS said:


> I just heard of these guys from a friend they are down in sioux center, ia. The vets here in town charge anywhere from 80 to 130 a time because they pull the blood and then pay the other labs to do the test, the vet down there does it themselves so I just mailed it to them to avoid the extra cost. so total it cost me 56 dollars to have my vet pull the blood, spin it, mail it down there and then 25 for the test.


Justin, which vet you using here in town?

Educate yourself before the big day comes. I know it "normally" goes smooth, but read my thread "breeding not all its cracked up to be." 

Good luck. You still using the stud you planned on?


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

fowl hunter said:


> I guess everyone has there fav time then. When I contacted mary tatum she told me to be there the next day when the prof hits 5. When I talked to mrs Mackey yesterday about breeding to sailor she told me to be at her vet when it hits 5 so that's what I was going with. To each his own I guess


OHHHHHHHHHHH more Sailor puppies! How exciting!


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Nancy How did you figure out 14 was your bitch's #?


I was told that once a bitch hits ~5ng and ovulates, the progesterone value jumps on avg ~5 ng per day (prior to that from ~2ng onward I think the avg is ~1 ng/ day). I *think* my girls are closer to 4ng a day once they hit 5ng and I have seen them plateau for a day or 2 prior as well, so never count on ovulation til we hit 5ng.

It was not shocking a few years ago when one of mine was ~13.5ng (results dont come until the next morning here), and I hit the road for a 2.5 hr or so drive, so it was 18 hrs or so after blood draw when I got her to the stud and all was great, despite 2 attempts of breeding w/o a tie. She had 12 puppies ~61 days later. Looked like an angus!

Anyhow, 14 would be darned close to +2 to +3 days after ovulation if you think about it and most vets will do their surgical implants at +3 days.

Both the first breedings w/ my girl who whelped early were done on the early side at 9.5ng (the litter born 4 days early) and 7.5ng (the litter 3-4 days early). Semen was great each time. We also did a 2nd AI 2 days after the first. 9 puppies in each litter.


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## MarkinMissouri (Aug 29, 2010)

Peanut or not. I don't care. A VERY informative thread that has stayed on topic for 10 pages! When I saw the thread I thought "Oh man...Here we go". Thank you to all experienced breeders who shared their wisdom patiently and non-judgmentally. 

Thanks again!
Mark


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

great info here with nice charts that show what most experienced breeders here are stating in this thread:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2109&aid=3201

http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/Dog-Progesterone-Test-Page1.htm

A few things worth repeating:

- once ovulation starts, the eggs are not released all at once. instead the are slowly released ( I think over about 2 days if I recall correctly? )

- once released, it takes about 2 days for the eggs to mature before they are "ready"

Based on my last breeding, I will be progest testing my bitch (in may) starting around day 8, then every other day until level of about 5. Then my bitch will get with the stud (already picked out) for a natural breeding, hopefully tieing twice or more a day or 2 apart. My last breeding she was flagging and ready just before or right at level of 5 and whelped 8 pups 62 days after the level of 5 (ovulation)

I plan to next breed my choc female by Gunner X a choc stud by Blue Ryder


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

I just got my progesterone test results back from thursday, she was at a .47 and I told the vet that I had already sent the second one off today so I would know how much she is gained in 1 day to see if she will hit 5 over the weekend, should I have waited to get the results back before I had her bled and sent the blood off to be tested or is it okay since it is coming up on a holiday weekend?


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

Are you planning on a natural breeding or AI or ... ?

monday, wednesday, friday is a good schedule. every other day starting on day 8 and hope she hits 5 around day 10-14 instead of day 30

If she was only .47 then you could go a 2 or 3 days to nest test.

It is important to get test done by a vet that can get you results the next day ! Remember, when she hits 5, eggs are generally starting to be released but takes a day or 2 for egs to get fertile and be ready.

you will likley see it slowly go up and than BANG it shoots up quick to 5 and above. She may stat below 1 or around 1 for a few test, then 3, then expect 5 quick after that. she should be flagging at 5. IF not, time for AI quick!


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

ha thanks she will be at day 8 on saturday, and day 10 on monday- I am SOL as far as testing and mailing this weekend- I swear dogs just like to stress us out everyonce in a while


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

she will probably hit 5 early - mid next week, if she follows the typical pattern and you should be good. I'd test next on Monday morning


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

the vet said that he had a feeling that it would be around tuesday to wednesday. I hope he is right


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Justin 
Make sure your results are in nanograms (ng) if it is some other kind of measure 5 will not work....
Just making sure


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

thank you I will give them a call for clarification, what would it be if it were not in ng and what # would the magic spot be in?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I cannot answer that , but I am pretty sure there are labs that use a different system...


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## RF2 (May 6, 2008)

A very informative thread. Thanks to the experienced breeders that contributed and patiently answered the questions.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Justin
> Make sure your results are in nanograms (ng) if it is some other kind of measure 5 will not work....
> Just making sure


Not positive but think it was nanomoles you are concerned about being different from ng, and if so, you really need to have that scale interpreted for you-- seems to me that I remember that to be a canadian thing but not sure. It's been a long time since I was on the Canine Repro chat list. Got kicked off actually! The toy breed folks had no sense of humor, apparently.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Anne I think you are right, on nanomoles and Canada.
I only brought it up because it looks like the vet is doing an in house test.....could be a different measure....


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Both the first breedings w/ my girl who whelped early were done on the early side at 9.5ng (the litter born 4 days early) and 7.5ng (the litter 3-4 days early). Semen was great each time. We also did a 2nd AI 2 days after the first. 9 puppies in each litter.


Anne, I looked at your blog and I get 61 days from ovulation. Ovulation the 13th of Oct and birth on the 13th of Dec. Did you miss counting the last 2 days in October?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Anne, I looked at your blog and I get 61 days from ovulation. Ovulation the 13th of Oct and birth on the 13th of Dec. Did you miss counting the last 2 days in October?


Don't think so. I do my progesterone draws late in the day and we both (my vet and I) figured ovulation Oct 14 (Fri) based on the general rule of thumb 1 ng rise per day until ovulation then ~4-5 ng rise after that.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> Don't think so. I do my progesterone draws late in the day and we both (my vet and I) figured ovulation Oct 14 (Fri) based on the general rule of thumb 1 ng rise per day until ovulation then ~4-5 ng rise after that.


You did the AI on the 14th. Did you do the AI before you drew the progesterone? Were the pups muzzles lacking hair? Because that's how you know they are that early. I've done enough that I can say that.
*October 14, 2011: First AI at 7.6 ng progesterone.* This was a little on the early side, but the weekend messed up things!


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> You did the AI on the 14th. Did you do the AI before you drew the progesterone? Were the pups muzzles lacking hair? Because that's how you know they are that early. I've done enough that I can say that.
> *October 14, 2011: First AI at 7.6 ng progesterone.* This was a little on the early side, but the weekend messed up things!


Huh, wondering the same, I come up with a different count too. Where do you start counting your 63 days from, Anne? With a progesterone of 7.6 on Oct 14, I'd have started counting from the 13th, with 63 days being Dec 15 then. Your litter was whelped Dec 13th. Even counting from the 14th, they'd have been 60 days?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Justin Did you get a breeding done? When are you expecting?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> You did the AI on the 14th. Did you do the AI before you drew the progesterone? Were the pups muzzles lacking hair? Because that's how you know they are that early. I've done enough that I can say that.
> *October 14, 2011: First AI at 7.6 ng progesterone.* This was a little on the early side, but the weekend messed up things!


 

According to MY notes (which my vet agreed with), they were due 9 wks (63 days) from early Fri, Oct 14. According to my Dayrunner, 9 wks was Fri. Dec 16. Yea or Nay? They were born in the wee hours of Tues which was 3 days early last I knew. If you want to debate this further, go for it girls.


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## Brokengunz (Sep 3, 2011)

the natural way to tell, get a male if she will move her tail to the side and stand for
him without a fight. Shes ready.....get her over to your stud for some fun. I go by 12=16 days after first sign of spotting. male dogs dont usually charge, free test. you dont let your test dog mount unless he's da man


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

windycanyon said:


> According to MY notes (which my vet agreed with), they were due 9 wks (63 days) from early Fri, Oct 14. According to my Dayrunner, 9 wks was Fri. Dec 16. Yea or Nay? They were born in the wee hours of Tues which was 3 days early last I knew. If you want to debate this further, go for it girls.



Just getting some clarification, Anne, since you tend to do things differently. Some of us would have counted from the 13th as ovulation. An exact science? Nope. But going with 5 as ovulation, I've not had one be off more than 2 days and most are within 24 hours. Vs 3-4 days "premature", I'd have said yours were within normal limits.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Brokengunz said:


> the natural way to tell, get a male if she will move her tail to the side and stand for
> him without a fight. Shes ready.....get her over to your stud for some fun. I go by 12=16 days after first sign of spotting. male dogs dont usually charge, free test. you dont let your test dog mount unless he's da man


 Good luck with that when the semen is being shipped across the country and this is your girls last breeding...
But yes that is one of the indicaters;-)


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Fascinating thread. As one who has only done a couple breedings the old fashioned way, I have wondered a bunch about the mechanics of AI breedings. This thread has been very enlightening to me. I thank all the contributors to this discussion, I have learned a LOT!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

windycanyon said:


> According to MY notes (which my vet agreed with), they were due 9 wks (63 days) from early Fri, Oct 14. According to my Dayrunner, 9 wks was Fri. Dec 16. Yea or Nay? They were born in the wee hours of Tues which was 3 days early last I knew. If you want to debate this further, go for it girls.


You and your vet are making the incorrect assumption that ALL dogs rise at "~5" everyday after ovulation. *That isn't true.* I had one that rose about 1 1/2 the day after, progesterones done 2 days in a row because we couldn't get her bred when I got to the stud and I had the progesterone done the next morning and I also had one that probably rose about 12 to 15 or more points since she got up to 46 from 3.2 in 3 days. Even my repro vet admitted that was extreme. 

This is for those that are following this thread to learn: Progesterones are not that rigid a calculation, and while there are averages,
there are many dogs that do not fit a rigid scheme in length of cycles or progesterone progression before and after ovulation. What is happening, is through progesterones, we are able to breed some of these bitches that probably couldn't be bred before based on counting days, so we have to deal with their progeny that have unusual cycles.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Ok she has been lagging but her levels are starting to finally rise she was a 2.57 on monday and I am getting another sample taken today, it is day 19 and all the vets kept telling me that it is probably a non ovulating cycle- I wasn't sure but we are now on track... unless she stalls we are breeding to Landover's right on Target - Aero this week or weekend - thank goodness for spring break she is causing me grey hairs and I am only 27 - I WANT A PUPPY! HA and fingers crossed I think I might beable to get one now


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

PERFECT CASE IN POINT!!! NON regular bitch

Hang in there sounds like you may be at the LH surge....Keep us posted OK?


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Will do- and thanks for all your help and Nancy's


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

JustinS said:


> Will do- and thanks for all your help and Nancy's


Your welome. You were wise to pm me and not give up.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> You and your vet are making the incorrect assumption that ALL dogs rise at "~5" everyday after ovulation.


I doubt that I ever said "ALL" because I know better than to speak in those terms. My own girls appear to avg more like 4-5ng / day once they hit 5ng and they've been known to stall at ~3.5 ng for a day or so (think I may have said this at some point here since both Sonya and her mother tend to stall). That's the part of the info that you can't see--- the graphs I have generated of all of the progesterone curves. 

My real world work in the apple industry here in WA revolves around ethylene, the naturally occuring hormone responsible for fruit ripening in climacteric type fruits (apples, some pears, peaches, tomatoes, etc). Interestingly enough, the natural ethylene climacteric curve in most apple varieties is VERY similar to the AVERAGE progesterone curve of my dogs!  Yes, there are some modifiers in both apples and dogs (stress in both come to mind), but that's biology for you, and that's why we have to continue to follow thru on the testing if you want the most accurate results. 

So, there you have it, I'm a nerd.  My vet and I have been known to place bets on progesterone draws. The stud owner on the other end this last time is also a repro vet btw and she also agreed, so fwiw... 

And Nancy, I'd not expect to see hairless puppies born after day 58 or so. Just my recollection from a repro/ neonatal seminar I attended so I could be wrong there. I most likely used the term "early" in my case since mine were fully developed (but smaller than I'd like and the tiniest one died in this litter-- lost 2 in her previous litter which by my projections were born on day 59). Hope that helps.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Interestingly enough, the natural ethylene climacteric curve in most apple varieties is VERY similar to the AVERAGE progesterone curve of my dogs!


I knew it-you are comparing dogs to apples.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Okay monday maggie was 2.56 and I got the test back from yesterday blood draw this morning and she was 6.7 the vet said she would be around 10 to 12 today so I brought her up to the stud today this evening she would stand for a bit then move around and wave her tail so he couldn't stay in... is she still not ready?


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

JustinS said:


> Okay monday maggie was 2.56 and I got the test back from yesterday blood draw this morning and she was 6.7 the vet said she would be around 10 to 12 today so I brought her up to the stud today this evening she would stand for a bit then move around and wave her tail so he couldn't stay in... is she still not ready?


Yea, finally some progress! Did your vet check for a stricture? One of mine had one that prevented a tie, but she still had 12 puppies.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Okay, Maggie is a figgiter every time he would start to insert she would move her tail or move her rear end, then we held her in place and tried to help guide him Maggie still managed to move around enough to not let it happen. On Friday she was a 20.6 we found out on saturday we tried really hard a couple of times on saturday - still no dice it was like she would move more when we came close. So I called vets all around up here and the vets that would answer the phone or return a call did not want to do a side by side today so I researched online watched videos on line on how to do a side by side and went to the local farm and fleet store got a clear plastic tube rubber gloves a 60 cc serenge and some ky jelly. I collected from him and then sucked it up in the serenge and then slowly inserted the tube - I looked at the female dog anatomy - I guided it with my finger past the bladder then slowly got it about 8 inches in and then hooked up the tube to serenge and then sqeezed it in a little came out but I think the majority stayed in. since she ovulated on wednesday it might have been a lost cause but I can say I gave an honest effort. thanks for everybodys help


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

This is quite a story -- or should I say nightmare? I hope your Turkey Baster efforts worked. Be sure to let us know if she conceived or did not conceive.

Helen


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## 1st retriever (Sep 2, 2008)

windycanyon said:


> And Nancy, I'd not expect to see hairless puppies born after day 58 or so.


Friend has had a couple litters of Shiba Inu puppies born on day 58 and they were fine. Not that anyone cares.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

1st retriever said:


> Friend has had a couple litters of Shiba Inu puppies born on day 58 and they were fine. Not that anyone cares.


In my _actual experience_, early pups have less hair on their faces, but it is rare for a dog to be 4 days early, and it all depends on how you count, which obviously is not the same from person to person.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

.............WOW.....................good luck with that, if the time was right you just may get a litter. I know when I was taught to AI the woman 15 yrs ago used aquarium tubing.Now I use a rod with a bullet tip , it is great because it is so smooth . I just hope you were clean enough...
They say you can learn anything from You Tube...What stud dog did you use?



JustinS said:


> Okay, Maggie is a figgiter every time he would start to insert she would move her tail or move her rear end, then we held her in place and tried to help guide him Maggie still managed to move around enough to not let it happen. On Friday she was a 20.6 we found out on saturday we tried really hard a couple of times on saturday - still no dice it was like she would move more when we came close. So I called vets all around up here and the vets that would answer the phone or return a call did not want to do a side by side today so I researched online watched videos on line on how to do a side by side and went to the local farm and fleet store got a clear plastic tube rubber gloves a 60 cc serenge and some ky jelly. I collected from him and then sucked it up in the serenge and then slowly inserted the tube - I looked at the female dog anatomy - I guided it with my finger past the bladder then slowly got it about 8 inches in and then hooked up the tube to serenge and then sqeezed it in a little came out but I think the majority stayed in. since she ovulated on wednesday it might have been a lost cause but I can say I gave an honest effort. thanks for everybodys help


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

JustinS said:


> Okay, Maggie is a figgiter every time he would start to insert she would move her tail or move her rear end, then we held her in place and tried to help guide him Maggie still managed to move around enough to not let it happen. On Friday she was a 20.6 we found out on saturday we tried really hard a couple of times on saturday - still no dice it was like she would move more when we came close. So I called vets all around up here and the vets that would answer the phone or return a call did not want to do a side by side today so I researched online watched videos on line on how to do a side by side and went to the local farm and fleet store got a clear plastic tube rubber gloves a 60 cc serenge and some ky jelly. I collected from him and then sucked it up in the serenge and then slowly inserted the tube - I looked at the female dog anatomy - I guided it with my finger past the bladder then slowly got it about 8 inches in and then hooked up the tube to serenge and then sqeezed it in a little came out but I think the majority stayed in. since she ovulated on wednesday it might have been a lost cause but I can say I gave an honest effort. thanks for everybodys help


I had an attempted breeding go about like yours Justin, only the vets did all the work. There were no ties after many attempts, muzzle, helping, holding, etc... We went with 2 AIs. Anyways, in my case it did not take after much effort of varying degrees. 

The next heat cycle my bitch stood for the same stud as soon as we got them together the first time. It was night and day difference the next heat cycle. maybe my bitch just wasn't ready that first try.

regardless, good luck with your breeding!


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

Do y'all think it helps when trying to do a natural breeding if you take the bitch to the male and have them in a kennel next to each other for a few days before do they get used to each other?


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Bridget Bodine said:


> .............WOW.....................good luck with that, if the time was right you just may get a litter. I know when I was taught to AI the woman 15 yrs ago used aquarium tubing.Now I use a rod with a bullet tip , it is great because it is so smooth . I just hope you were clean enough...
> They say you can learn anything from You Tube...What stud dog did you use?


I used Aero - Landover's right on Target. with the last couple of bitches that have been brought over he has gotten a tie with in the first 10 min. I stayed 4 days- hahaha I tried to find a cathetter but no one had them that was open that is why I went with the tubing- and I disinfected everything with a 50% rubbing alcohol and 50% water solution then let it all air dry so we shouldn't have a problem with cleanliness. 

I have another question though. the dogs progesterone levels stay high in order to keep the pups in her whom right.. so would a high progesterone test in a week or two confirm a litter or not?


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

JustinS said:


> I used Aero - Landover's right on Target. with the last couple of bitches that have been brought over he has gotten a tie with in the first 10 min. I stayed 4 days- hahaha I tried to find a cathetter but no one had them that was open that is why I went with the tubing- and I disinfected everything with a 50% rubbing alcohol and 50% water solution then let it all air dry so we shouldn't have a problem with cleanliness.
> 
> I have another question though. the dogs progesterone levels stay high in order to keep the pups in her whom right.. so would a high progesterone test in a week or two confirm a litter or not?


Nope. You can do US or a bloodtest (relaxen) at around 21 days, I generally wait til 28 days just because I throw enough money around, I prefer to give myself some margin for error.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

thanks I wasn't sure


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Here is another question for the experienced ones, if a bitch is pregnant do males generally still try to hump them - I am working with a younger male and every time i let him out with maggie he tries to hump her after he has sniffed her pee spot and crotch - or is he just being a really horny 11 month old?


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Hey Justin , what's the verdict?


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## JJaxon (Nov 1, 2009)

I knew when I started reading this 2 hours ago that it was a few years old. And, I'm not trying to rekindle any flames from any one fired up back then, But I truly learned from this reading and think others will too if it's brought back to Life. So, Back to the top it goes.


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## JustinS (May 17, 2009)

Just to settle the original post the breeding did not take, that said I did get Maggie bred this last year and she had a litter of 9 pups 7 lived, the stud dog owner said in order to get her to stand still he had to tire her out on fun retrieves and then put her in with the stud. 

I now know so much more about breeding, from this thread and experiences. last spring she had a late ovulation and I didnt know enough about breeding plus the stud dog owner never had a problem with his stud tying up so it was an experience for us both, I now got a new puppy out of my Maggie and she is a blast to say the least following the Hillman program she is already sitting on command and walking on a leash, I hope to get a QAA at least out of her but time will tell thanks for all the good advise


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## TJ Shanahan (Dec 14, 2007)

WOW! Here in Chicagoland area, the cheapest I've found is $78 PER TEST!


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