# Dog Freezing on Birds



## oco2530 (Nov 18, 2008)

I spent yesterday searching on RTF for answers to my situation but thought I would post something to gain any new insight.

I have a 4 year old black lab male that has developed a freezing problem. It started last fall when we were running a master test and he slammed the series. He came back to the line and would not give up the bird. I spent the next 6 mouths doing drills and running singles to correct the issue. We taught him to back off of bumper, remote drop, and I forced on out. I also changed my mechanics at the line. I had a tendency to grab for the bird instead of him giving it to me. I have also incorporated giving him a tennis ball of of the line as a reward.

This past weekend the the problem showed up again. He did well the first series and slammed the second series. On the last bird before a water bird he came back to the line with this crazy look in his eye. He also would not sit. So I rehealed him and got him to sit. When I went to reach for the bird he turned his head to opposite way and would not give up the bird. I then lined him up for the blind and he still would not give the bird up. So my test was ended early once again.

We discussed the incident at dinner and on the way home the next day. First I am going to try to be less happy on the line. I have a tendency to clap a couple of times when he does well so I will hold that emotion till I get him back to the trailer. Two.. we have the idea to skin and dry a duck and fit it around a doken so it is more life like. We would then insert wire threw the body so when he bites down it kinda hurts. He is also done running tests for a long time.

Any other thought?

Thanks


Mike


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

I am curious---what happens when you hunt your dog? Also, I'm not sure that you will get what you want with wiring up a Dokken.


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

oco2530 said:


> I spent yesterday searching on RTF for answers to my situation but thought I would post something to gain any new insight.
> 
> I have a 4 year old black lab male that has developed a freezing problem. It started last fall when we were running a master test and he slammed the series. He came back to the line and would not give up the bird. I spent the next 6 mouths doing drills and running singles to correct the issue. We taught him to back off of bumper, remote drop, and I forced on out. I also changed my mechanics at the line. I had a tendency to grab for the bird instead of him giving it to me. I have also incorporated giving him a tennis ball of of the line as a reward.
> 
> ...


It started with my BLM about the same age. From what I have learned it happens to some of the real birdy dogs. Remote drop has helped us, but it will always be a work in progress for us. Here is a link that might help.

http://www.kwicklabs.com/RemoteDrop.htm


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

Hoping others will chime in....I had this happen last month; Chesapeake female, 2nd master test and she was reluctant to give up birds in the first series. First bird, slight reluctance, 2nd, noticeable by both me & judges; last bird...well let's just say I had to pick her up and leash her before she'd give it up. I got varied advice and of course she doesn't do this in training; she'd never been rough on birds or reluctant to give them up. The only time she'd ever been reluctant to release was on happy bumpers, so we discontinued those months ago. But she had been slow to come to heel and sit so we've been working on much higher standards on her obedience, both in training and in general. I also put her on the table and did some stick fetch with her to speed up her return/sit with birds. So far so good, she didn't do it this wkd. double staked in both senior and master, but on her last series she took her time coming to heel and sitting. I have been told this can be tough to fix, especially for dogs that do not freeze in training.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

I would be very hesitant to put wire inside the skinned duck / dokken for safety issues. I know you are trying to create a painful situation, but look at it the other way.

I have heard a few Labs who have picked up a dove, and when they did crunch down a little hard, the bones of the dove broke and pierced the top lining of the dogs mouth, which then got infected and caused more problems. Point is, by putting wire in, you could be creating the same issue, and ultimately injure you dog seriously.

Just a thought.

Another suggestion for you to try in training (which ultimately will work at a test). Use your outside foot to create pressure when taking the bird in training. If you do this as a conditioned response, then, when at a test, they will never know if it will happen or not, and when they see you step up with your outside foot, they will not know if the pressure is coming, and should release the bird. just another thought


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Seek Professional help.
Maybe you are missing something that a Pro. may see.
Sue


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Another suggestion for you to try in training (which ultimately will work at a test). Use your outside foot to create pressure when taking the bird in training. If you do this as a conditioned response, then, when at a test, they will never know if it will happen or not, and when they see you step up with your outside foot, they will not know if the pressure is coming, and should release the bird. just another thought





> > Very good
> > Can you fill us in on the entire process,,,How have you achieved pressure with your outside foot? What is the regularity of your conditioned response? Is the actual pressure visible to the dog.? And do you use a pre-posture or motion conditioning to lighten the trance like stuper that some dogs drift into.
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Pete


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

I like the remote DROP idea, and can see where it would calm a dog down.
I've never tried it however, and have a different approach to the problem.

Could be an opportrunity for me to learn something here..

I have a question:
After teaching the dog to Remote DROP, will that same dog that was previously freezing, or being a little sticky with birds remotely DROP at a HT/FT afterwards ?


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I'd also recommend to stop running tests, this is what triggers the behavior and you can not correct for it and before you know it you will have created a habit. If you have to, find a large training group to join and run him as if you are running a test (i.e. no collar, no heeling stick, etc.) air him like you would for a test, walk him to the line like you would for a test, wait in a holding blind, have judges, etc. Run the first series, run a second series, etc until you get the behavior and then you will be able to correct the dog for the actual behavior. I know it's a PITA to simulate the behavior, but focus on that (i.e. run the dog on the setup and don't worry about how he does, but focus on the line manners). Remote drop helps and I still do it with my dog every so often when training, I'll have him drop the bird after a retrieve when he is a few yards from the line, then send him for the next bird and pick up the dropped bird myself while e is retrieving the memory bird or next single. I don't really think all the "band-aids" work, you need to correct the behavior and modify it, band-aids eventually come off and there are only so many of them - up your standards at the line (which it sounds like you are, but still room for improvement). Best of luck.


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## GG (Jan 29, 2006)

will the dog freeze with someone else running him? if it's a personal thing between you and the dog--you've really got a problem! The three reasons i know of that dogs freeze on birds are; posessiveness of the bird, resentment and nerves. once you have tried everything you can think of and you're at the end of your rope, you might try---choosing another command such as sit and apply maximum pressure with the collar. Does not matter whether he will sit or not; appy the force. this is a very difficult and complicated problem that you are probably going to need help on. Be sure you want to work on the problem with a pro, because it can get ugly.
good luck
GG


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

FOM said:


> I'd also recommend to stop running tests, this is what triggers the behavior and you can not correct for it and before you know it you will have created a habit. If you have to, find a large training group to join and run him as if you are running a test (i.e. no collar, no heeling stick, etc.) air him like you would for a test, walk him to the line like you would for a test, wait in a holding blind, have judges, etc. .


+1 Was slowly eluding to this FOM, but cha' beat me to it 

Work on the possessiveness with other dogs around,.
Get the dog honoring...DROP means DROP everywhere, every situation, regardless.


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## obx4me (Jan 29, 2011)

First, I am far from a pro trainer ! But I did stay at a holiday inn last night ....


My girl was mouthy with birds, crunching down on them and not wanting to give up the bird. I am sure my "training" created the issue.

Here is what I did to correct it and it really helped out! Note, my girl has been FF as a pup and knows "hold". I've been trying to teach proper/better mouthing of the bird (less mouthy and dropping into my hand on command). I sat her on the tailgate of my truck to work with her and control her. Using a real bird (smaller bird better - I used a quail) and wearing leather gloves,* I would put the bird AND my gloved hand into her mouth *and tell her hold. When I did this I would make sure to have a few fingers in her mouth. 
At first She was careful / reluctant to hold as she did not want to bite down on my hand. 

1. I would put the bird AND my hand in her mouth for a few seconds commanding "hold"
2. After a few seconds I would command "drop" and remove the bird and my hand from her mouth.

She never would crunch down on bird when my hand was in there too.

I would repeat the drill from the couch at home using her kong toy.

This worked very quickly at solving her heavy mouth problem. I continue to practice this every now and then.


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

Swampbilly said:


> I have a question:
> After teaching the dog to Remote DROP, will that same dog that was previously freezing, or being a little sticky with birds remotely DROP at a HT/FT afterwards ?


No, it shouldn't. And it is not a cure. It will haunt you(at least it does me), but remote drop does help, at least in my case. Another person running the dog is an idea. Mine has only done it with me. He has not done it so far with one of my training partners. When the birds get soggy seems to aid in bringing it on.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

I have dealt with "sticky" but never a hard "freeze." With a sticky dog, I thinks its something you can bury for a while, but never totally cure, since its a nervous reaction (at least in the ones I have dealt with).


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

tpaschal30 said:


> No, it shouldn't. And it is not a cure. It will haunt you(at least it does me), but remote drop does help, at least in my case. Another person running the dog is an idea. Mine has only done it with me. He has not done it so far with one of my training partners. When the birds get soggy seems to aid in bringing it on.


Hey thanx.
What I'm getting at moreso is, will the dog , when commanded to do so, (say off at a distance , but still close enough to have the affects of a HT), remotely DROP after being taught to do so in the training field..then afterwards on, or around the Test grounds.


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## Elliott Labradors (May 19, 2009)

In the link below Jim mentions later adding his description to a "Remote Drop Drill". Does anyone know where that info could be found?

_It started with my BLM about the same age. From what I have learned it happens to some of the real birdy dogs. Remote drop has helped us, but it will always be a work in progress for us. Here is a link that might help.

http://www.kwicklabs.com/RemoteDrop.htm _


Thanks,

Wally
.


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

Swampbilly said:


> Hey thanx.
> What I'm getting at moreso is, will the dog , when commanded to do so, (say off at a distance , but still close enough to have the affects of a HT), remotely DROP after being taught to do so in the training field..then afterwards on, or around the Test grounds.


Sorry I'm not understanding. Are you asking will he not deliver to hand at a HT? If it is freezing it is not delivering to hand already. Sorry for my confusion.


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

I’ve not found one. A friend that attended a Lardy seminar showed me. You front sit the dog. While making eye contact you sweep your arm across with the drop command( and collar pressure). Do not let him pick it back up and bring him to heel without the bird. 




Elliott Labradors said:


> In the link below Jim mentions later adding his description to a "Remote Drop Drill". Does anyone know where that info could be found?
> 
> _It started with my BLM about the same age. From what I have learned it happens to some of the real birdy dogs. Remote drop has helped us, but it will always be a work in progress for us. Here is a link that might help.
> 
> ...


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

tpaschal30 said:


> Sorry I'm not understanding. Are you asking will he not deliver to hand at a HT? If it is freezing it is not delivering to hand already. Sorry for my confusion.


The internet is hard sometimes 

Lets' take a dog that is getting sticky, and freezing on birds after a return back to the line,.. 

Now that same dog has been trained to a Remote DROP..

Now that he's been trained to do that in the training field, would that same dog do it successfully if it was exposed to a HT and the affects of it?
In other words, if the dog is trained to Remote DROP _without_ the factors of a HT present, would the same dog be successful, (Remote DROP), _with_ those factors present.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Elliott Labradors said:


> In the link below Jim mentions later adding his description to a "Remote Drop Drill". Does anyone know where that info could be found?



http://new.retrievertraining.net/fo...nnual-Review-quot&highlight=Remote+drop+drill


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

You don’t do it in the HT just in training. It seems to make them less possessive, but it is not a cure. 




Swampbilly said:


> The internet is hard sometimes
> 
> You don’t do it in the HT just in training. It seems to make them less possessive, but it is not a cure.
> 
> ...


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## RaeganW (Jan 1, 2011)

GG said:


> will the dog freeze with someone else running him? if it's a personal thing between you and the dog--you've really got a problem! The three reasons i know of that dogs freeze on birds are; posessiveness of the bird, resentment and nerves. once you have tried everything you can think of and you're at the end of your rope, you might try---choosing another command such as sit and apply maximum pressure with the collar. Does not matter whether he will sit or not; appy the force. this is a very difficult and complicated problem that you are probably going to need help on. Be sure you want to work on the problem with a pro, because it can get ugly.
> good luck
> GG


I won't comment on possessiveness of the bird, but in my experience, when command response fails due to resentment and nerves, more pressure/aversives/corrections create more resentment and nerves. In other words, I don't think nailing him on a sit command is going to make him any more inclined to give you the bird. Have you tried taking the bird and then giving it back to him?


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

T-Pines said:


> http://new.retrievertraining.net/fo...nnual-Review-quot&highlight=Remote+drop+drill



Of course you start much closer


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

tpaschal30 said:


> You don’t do it in the HT just in training. It seems to make them less possessive, but it is not a cure.


Oh I know it.. ..but would that same dog be _successful_ doing it if commanded to,.. lets' say,..off to the side in the "airing area" ;-)


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

What about training with hard frozen birds? Let us know how the problem goes and what works. Interesting thread.


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

Swampbilly said:


> Oh I know it.. ..but would that same dog be _successful_ doing it if commanded to,.. lets' say,..off to the side in the "airing area" ;-)


Guess it could. Not done that.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

Had this happen on last bird last series Sunday. It was the fourth time this has happened and the dog is almost 9. Began working on it Monday by "turning up the heat". Just remember, if you are working on it in close quarters, no matter how old the dog is, his reflex to react to what ever pressure source you are applying, is much faster than yours. Be careful. You are most likely older and slower than you think.


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## oco2530 (Nov 18, 2008)

tpaschal30 said:


> It started with my BLM about the same age. From what I have learned it happens to some of the real birdy dogs. Remote drop has helped us, but it will always be a work in progress for us. Here is a link that might help.
> 
> http://www.kwicklabs.com/RemoteDrop.htm



I taught him remote drop/out during the winter. In training he will drop on command.


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## oco2530 (Nov 18, 2008)

gdgnyc said:


> I am curious---what happens when you hunt your dog? Also, I'm not sure that you will get what you want with wiring up a Dokken.


He has only upland hunted sometimes he is a little sticky but has never frozen. That's before I worked with him on this issue during the winter. I have not hunted him since that point


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I read an article about an owner who took his dog to Rex Carr with a freezing problem (maybe Retrievers ONLINE?). Anyway the guy left his dog with Rex for about a year. No tests, just training. Guy came and got his dog and ran a trial. The dog froze on the first bird. Rex told him, "well he's fixed, just not with you." Guy sells dog and new owner runs the dog in trials and maybe eleven titles. But in about a year or so the dog freezes with the new handler. 

I'm sure I got some of the details from the story wrong but bottom line is, if Rex couldn't fix it, I certainly can't. I have a relatively nice black lab male that started freezing on birds at about a year old. He had a very heavy handed pro trainer for the first 7 months of formal training. I've been told that freezing is not uncommon with such training methods. I Worked on it hard as many describe here fir over a only to have it show back up at the first test we ran.

My solution...
Well I bought three more dogs and trained them myself. They are all infinitely better than the pro trained dog, and none if them have issues so severe that they can not be run in trials. My freezing dog is now 6 and just froze on an then ate a Chuckar last week. I mean he ate every but if that bird. Only sign of a struggle was about 2 tail feathers.

I say the sooner you get started on a new pup, the happier both you and Mr. Freeze will be.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

A lot of dogs freeze on the last bird, in a test they can some times be tricked into releasing by setting them up for a blind or making them think there is going to be another bird. This only works for a limited amount of time. In training, re-enforcing DROP helps a lot. 

First off, Don't be in a hurry, Never get in a game of tug with the bird, and don't reach down to take the bird from a dog that pulls it away from you. Don't beg the dog to give you the bird. It's your bird, it's his job to give it to you. Stand tall enforce heel and make the dog bring the bird back to you hand. Place a light touch on the bird, tell the dog to drop, at the same time nick with the collar. The first time he will probably spit the bird, tell him fetch, then tell him drop. Usually after a few re-enforcements the dog will be spitting birds at you, alternate btw using collar pressure and not. End when the dog is giving you the bird quickly and reliably whenever you say drop. 

A sticky dog will never be completely cured but it can be managed. Use this as a maintenance drill, when the dog decides to get sticky, even just a little bit, step aside and enforced drop, then return to regular work. With a dog that's prone to stick the drill can be done the morning before a test, and when necessary, off campus in-btw series. 

Wrapping birds in wire is more of a cure for a hard mouth dog or one that likes to crunch birds, it teaches them to hold with caution, often times wont help with a dog that freezes, because their hold is fine, they just refuse to drop.


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

oco2530 said:


> I taught him remote drop/out during the winter. In training he will drop on command.


do you use it regularly in training?


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I read an article about an owner who took his dog to Rex Carr with a freezing problem (maybe Retrievers ONLINE?). Anyway the guy left his dog with Rex for about a year. No tests, just training. Guy came and got his dog and ran a trial. The dog froze on the first bird. Rex told him, "well he's fixed, just not with you." Guy sells dog and new owner runs the dog in trials and maybe eleven titles. But in about a year or so the dog freezes with the new handler.





> > I would imagine it was fixed between Rex and the dog. Dogs respond per interaction individually . So how a dog responds to one person is often different than how it responds to another. I'm sure that new handler became slothful upholding the original standard that Rex had set and when he realized the back slide ,,they had forgotten how to implement the technique as far as interjecting prescribed method at the right time with the dog in the proper frame of mind to receive maximum benefit. . And over time the dogs good behavior eroded with birds.
> > It happens with other areas in which there is a dog /human relationship as well.
> >
> > There is a solution. The problem is the guy that can fix it will have to run it,,, If your serious about this then you need to find some one who can critique you and instill in you a brand new standard,, may be not a higher standard because its possible you have a very high standard , but definitely a new standard and deprogram you along the way.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Pete said:


> I would imagine it was fixed between Rex and the dog. Dogs respond per interaction individually . So how a dog responds to one person is often different than how it responds to another. I'm sure that new handler became slothful upholding the original standard that Rex had set and when he realized the back slide ,,they had forgotten how to implement the technique as far as interjecting prescribed method at the right time with the dog in the proper frame of mind to receive maximum benefit. . And over time the dogs good behavior eroded with birds.
> [/COLOR]It happens with other areas in which there is a dog /human relationship as well.
> 
> There is a solution. The problem is the guy that can fix it will have to run it,,, If your serious about this then you need to find some one who can critique you and instill in you a brand new standard,, may be not a higher standard because its possible you have a very high standard , but definitely a new standard and deprogram you along the way.


Pete, I also read your article in RJ, or it could have been written by someone else but referred to your methods to deal with the issue. In my view, although we made much progress in training, it was not worth the time and effort to see it crop up again in a trial. Having just driven 250 miles to the test, paid entry fees, hotel bill, food, gas, etc... just to run one series and head to the house. Makes for a loooong ride home.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

captainjack said:


> I read an article about an owner who took his dog to Rex Carr with a freezing problem (maybe Retrievers ONLINE?). Anyway the guy left his dog with Rex for about a year. No tests, just training. Guy came and got his dog and ran a trial. The dog froze on the first bird. Rex told him, "well he's fixed, just not with you." Guy sells dog and new owner runs the dog in trials and maybe eleven titles. But in about a year or so the dog freezes with the new handler.
> 
> I'm sure I got some of the details from the story wrong but bottom line is, if Rex couldn't fix it, I certainly can't.



that dog was probably FC AFC Evergreen Binx, originally owned by Dr Bruce Beier but sold to David and Gretchen Crow...they continued to put the heat on him first while at RC and then later with pro John Honore...the dog was a superb marker but refused to give up the bird..ended up with about 110 AA points mainly handled by Gretchen Crow


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Glen
That article was about bird aggression and one way to deal with it. it wasn't about freezing. Although the 2 may be related I think there are more effective ways with dealing with it than remote drop

Pete


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

I have known of 3 from personal experience. One was ours...Ivan...Open 3rd and 1st. Had to stop trialing for a year after a Derby win, Canadian Junior win and huge Q win.(funny thing was, he became a Master Hunter because he never knew it was the last bird) It came back in triplicate later. The other 2 dogs were training partners (one FC AFC) and unfortunately many tried everything possible, including professional intervention. Doom and gloom, yes, but realisticaly, you won't solve it! Sorry for the bad news. Get another dog.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

BonMallari said:


> that dog was probably FC AFC Evergreen Binx, originally owned by Dr Bruce Beier but sold to David and Gretchen Crow...they continued to put the heat on him first while at RC and then later with pro John Honore...the dog was a superb marker but refused to give up the bird..ended up with about 110 AA points mainly handled by Gretchen Crow


No the story Glen relates about Rex was from a Retrievers ONLINE article and was about Rex and Gus Ratherts dog as I recall. I can tell many other stories about dogs whose freezing was solved for one person but not the owner.

Everybody says it happens suddenly. WRONG! It is always evident earlier but people don`t see it. I personally had a 200 point dog that started stickiness at age 5-6. I thought it had appeared suddenly after a cruciate surgery until I saw an earlier video which showed him following the bird on delivery. I now watch for the slighest head turn. My dog continued to compete quite sucessfully but without the stickiness he would have had over 250 points!!!

Once it has happened at a weekend event a few times you are into patch work with variable and limited success. Not zero but limited!!!! Can you think of a new "trick" every two weeks? Not likely. Good luck!!

Pressure is at the root of all this-whether mental or physical doesn't matter. Even success can cause pressure!!!

I have written a 2 part article on this subject in Retrievers ONLINE but my bottom-line is learn how to avoid. It is one of the most difficult problems to solve that I know of once it is entrenched!.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

oco2530 said:


> I spent yesterday searching on RTF for answers to my situation but thought I would post something to gain any new insight.
> 
> I have a 4 year old black lab male that has developed a freezing problem. It started last fall when we were running a master test and he slammed the series. He came back to the line and would not give up the bird. I spent the next 6 mouths doing drills and running singles to correct the issue. We taught him to back off of bumper, remote drop, and I forced on out. I also changed my mechanics at the line. I had a tendency to grab for the bird instead of him giving it to me. I have also incorporated giving him a tennis ball of of the line as a reward.
> 
> ...


Excellent thread.

Mike,
What you said there is good medicine(sp) IMHO...
If it does happen again, then maybe put a lead on him and just talk a walk with him on heal with the bird. No destination im mind. Watch and see what he does.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Good luck with your dog. If you can reliably fix it there are a lot of people who will be wanting to talk to you...


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## dmccarty (Jul 9, 2004)

Just curious, what do you think would happen if the handler simply stood there without attempting to take the bird, for as long as it takes until the dog tries to set it down... then correct for "hold"? Until the dog is more than ready to get it out of its mouth, and then give the drop command?


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

GG said:


> will the dog freeze with someone else running him? if it's a personal thing between you and the dog--you've really got a problem! The three reasons i know of that dogs freeze on birds are; posessiveness of the bird, resentment and nerves. once you have tried everything you can think of and you're at the end of your rope, you might try---choosing another command such as sit and apply maximum pressure with the collar. Does not matter whether he will sit or not; appy the force. this is a very difficult and complicated problem that you are probably going to need help on. Be sure you want to work on the problem with a pro, because it can get ugly.
> good luck
> GG


Bingo!!!

I've personally experienced this with 2 people who day train with me. It is a relationship issue where the dog is feeling extreme mental pressure. 

Sometimes you've got to back off dog and quit picking at them so much.

Angie


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

dmccarty said:


> Just curious, what do you think would happen if the handler simply stood there without attempting to take the bird, for as long as it takes until the dog tries to set it down... then correct for "hold"? Until the dog is more than ready to get it out of its mouth, and then give the drop command?


That sounds very clever. Have you done this?


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

dmccarty said:


> Just curious, what do you think would happen if the handler simply stood there without attempting to take the bird, for as long as it takes until the dog tries to set it down...?


as most freezing only will happen at tests, what will happen is...... the workers will reload the tossers, the judges will ask you for the bird, that you cannot give. the folks in the holding blinds will get antsy, you will thank the judges and heel all the way back to in back of your truck with the bird and find a way to get it out of your dogs mouth. Great Black Lab named Kid, of a training bud of mine would only do it on the last bird of the last series. Fricken dog knew it was the last bird of the weekend and it was his


.


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

dmccarty said:


> Just curious, what do you think would happen if the handler simply stood there without attempting to take the bird, for as long as it takes until the dog tries to set it down... then correct for "hold"? Until the dog is more than ready to get it out of its mouth, and then give the drop command?


I think mine would end up eating it.


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## MIDTNGRNHEAD (Jun 17, 2004)

Great discussion.

I will let you know if our work this week paid dividends. My dog is almost 9 and this has just become a serious issue. And yes he has always been a bit mouthy but has just began freezing on birds last fall. His mom had a different hard mouth issue. She wanted to tear the bird apart. She would grab at the bird when you started to move the bird away from her. She some times would drop the bird and put her foot on it and begin to pull feathers from the breast. I put her back on the table and basically went through force fetch with a lot of pressure. That was about 40 master passes ago. But, as others have said, that demon still lives within her and rears it's ugly head at times. I have learned to manage it better but it will never be completely cured. It goes in remission for a period of time but always comes back. She is now 12 and passed a double master this past weekend. No issues at all but it will reappear.


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## dmccarty (Jul 9, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> as most freezing only will happen at tests, what will happen is...... the workers will reload the tossers, the judges will ask you for the bird, that you cannot give. the folks in the holding blinds will get antsy, you will thank the judges and heel all the way back to in back of your truck with the bird and find a way to get it out of your dogs mouth. Great Black Lab named Kid, of a training bud of mine would only do it on the last bird of the last series. Fricken dog knew it was the last bird of the weekend and it was his
> 
> 
> .


What I meant was, do this in training every day, for every bird delivered, for a very long time. Until the dog becomes conditioned to a new mindset.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Very early on in this thread there was a link to something I wrote to a friend about remote drop. I want to clarify that this was *NOT* meant as a referrence to *cure* freezing. The primary purpose was to be proactive in that all my dogs when they are into transition go through a routine of learning remote drop. 

Inorder to do so, certain protocol for handle and delivery skills on bumpers and birds are in place early on. Long ago after reading Lardy's article I decided to use a preventative pro-active approach. The idea was that taking the bird from a dog is often times the most important part of a training session. Therefore, working with my young dogs continually reminds me of the preparation for remote drop. When a slow, quiet and precise delivery routine is ingrained, remote drop becomes much easier and probably unncessary.


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## turk870 (Mar 13, 2010)

friend of mine had same prob.his dog only froze on last bird.what worked for him was find somthing the dog is crazy about(his was a tennis ball)before going to line throw it at truck a couple times then say remember go run the test when dog freezes say remember.then when you get back to truck they get the ball again.not sure of all the ins and outs


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Angie B said:


> Bingo!!!
> 
> I've personally experienced this with 2 people who day train with me. It is a relationship issue where the dog is feeling extreme mental pressure.
> 
> ...



I agree. Each dog is different…each dog has their own threshold. As you mention in a previous thread back some time ago, they will give you clues, signs that they are reaching that threshold. It’s up to us to see them and then decide if we should go any further. There is not cure, but we can help by watching……

Again...Excellent thread.


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## BentleysMom (Nov 6, 2010)

We have a blf who started freezing on birds around 2 or 3 yrs old. Always the last bird of a HT or FT. Also went hand in hand with good marking, sort of like she new it was going well in the test so now the bird was hers. Well, over the last couple of years we have done just about everything. Seriously, everything. Yes, remote drop, new handlers, pros 3 of them, etc... What I can tell you it is not easy, sure you get success a time or two but it haunts you. 

Pro told me it is the state of mind in the dog. Overexcitement! we now make her lay down in the holding blind before she runs. Also domination over the dog. Which is 24hrs a day. At home she is not allowed to walk in front of us, she has to earn treats. Little things like that. All about being a pack leader. This has really improved things for the last year, not perfect by all means but has helped. 

On switching handlers, have done this many times. After a month or not even sometimes they get the freeze too. The dog figures out the handlers weakness or something. If anyone has a forever cure, please post in big bold letters!! Good luck!


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

BentleysMom said:


> If anyone has a forever cure, please post in big bold letters!! Good luck!


If it's, (oops)..
IF IT'S THE 3RD AND LAST BIRD THE DOG FREEEZES UP ON, TEACH THE DOG TO COUNT TO 4, lol.:razz:

(O.k. sorry)


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Pressure is at the root of all this-whether mental or physical doesn't matter. Even success can cause pressure!!!
> .


A non/low-pressure method that I have seen help several dogs involves a lawn chair, a beverage and something to read. When the dog freezes the handler would calmly walk back to the truck, stake out the dog with the bird in their mouth and just sit there for a few hours. The dog eventually will get tired of sitting & holding the bird and will lay down or drop the bird the dog is then made to sit and fetch. Sitting and holding onto a bird becomes very unattractive to the dog.


Tim


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Dennis is right on.
"If" only we could video tape ourselves as handlers.
Hard to fix, pressure induced,handler error.
Seek Prof. help.
Every dog is different. Who knows why this dog felt the pressure and when it started.
Sue


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