# ear pinch vs. toe hitch



## rlw (May 14, 2009)

............


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Are you asking a question? If so I use the toe hitch. I used to use the ear pinch but as I got older I don't bend down as easy. I use a table also for the same reason.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Toe hitch her also


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

I've always wondered, how do you reinforce the fetch command in the field if you use a toe hitch? 

How do you get them to sit still while you get that string out?

Seriously, do you start out with the toe then move to ear pinch later?

John Lash


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## Real Green (Feb 10, 2010)

John Lash said:


> I've always wondered, how do you reinforce the fetch command in the field if you use a toe hitch?
> 
> How do you get them to sit still while you get that string out?
> 
> ...


While I have never used the toe hitch, I have read that the field correction would be to step on his foot.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Some dogs we run with a short cord around their ankle for a while but not around the toes. You can just pull on the cord around the ankle. Another field correcton is to reach down and squeeze the two middle toes together with your hand.

In the latter stages of walking force fetch I just have the cord around their ankle and that is enough of a reminder in case of a mistake.


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

Here's my 2 cents worth. I use the toe pinch on the bench. (My bench is 1 ft X 3 ft with a 1 ft spresd separating it from the wall.) Reason - the dog has to learn to keep still before this stuff works. The bench is waist high so I don't have to bend. I can concentrate on the dog. Depending on the dog I may, while on the bench, introduce the e-collar. Once the dog is scooping up the bumper off of the bench I move to the ground and apply the ear pinch for the 1st couple of fetches. Then when they are fetching of the ground I go back to or introduce the e-collar. Except for the number of clients who do not want their dogs trained with the e-collar. The walking fetch is best taught - in my opinion - with the e-collar. 
In the walking fetch the key is to keep walking. Never stop! If the dog doesn't pick up the bird simple walk in a circle coming back to the bumper and while doing this softly command,"fetch." Followed by a one second delay then apply low button stimulation. You want corrections. You know you are sucessful when the dog will run towards and scoop up the bumper.
Sorry. I got off topic but I find this part of the FF very interesting and if done right there is no damage done to the dog and they have an excellent attitude.


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## Dog Pro (Apr 9, 2008)

Ear pinch,then toe cinch followed up with e-collar,if done properly you'll never need the toe cinch again once you transistion to e-collar,all of your field corrections will be either ear pinch or collar.I like the toe cinch because it slowly starts putting distance between you and the dog and makes the transistion to e-collar much easier,in fact i intro the e-collar on the table with the toe cinch still attached as a safety valve,pull toe,apply stimulation release both with compliance,some dogs stall out when you first go to the collar and the only other option is to ear pinch at the same time,kinda hard to ear pinch,apply collar and hold the buck.This meathod works for me and i FF 10-15 dogs a year and have used this method and seen it on over 200 dogs.


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## Poodlegirl (Dec 19, 2007)

First I teach the "hold" command, and then reinforce the word "fetch" when popping the dowel into their mouths before I do anything. Then I go toe hitch because I find that my dogs respond very well to it without a lot of drama. Besides which - Poodles can have ear issues and I don't like to start off by pinching their ears. Once I have the dog moving well on the table with toe hitch, and using the word "fetch", I introduce the ear pinch. By the time I introduce that I am really working just to introduce them to the fact that responding to my command makes the pressure go away.

I find the ear pinch easier to use for walking fetch because I slide my hand down the leash easier, but I also find that I can usually apply a little pressure on their food with my foot and I get responsiveness.

Once we get to the field my fetch is pretty solid - but if I need a correction I can grab the collar and apply either an ep or apply pressure with my foot on theirs.

We've done our last two dogs this way and I am much happier with the process and the results.


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## The Snows (Jul 19, 2004)

No one mentioned .... if you have a dog who is fighting you on this, the toe pinch keeps your hand away from the dog's mouth should he want to try to grab you.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Poodlegirl said:


> By the time I introduce that I am really working just to introduce them to the fact that responding to my command makes the pressure go away.


This is the key. I have a couple of dogs that were toe-hitched, followed by ear pinch. It teaches the dog that if htey do the correct thing, they get out of pressure. 

The only negative I've seen is that one of the dogs won't let you trim a nail...... it's like wrestling a water buffalo.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

With the toe hitch I've heard that it can cause injury to the webbing on their feet. Is this true and one of the reasons I use the ear pinch? 
Another thing with the toe hitch is how do you do the walking fetch on the table when you have a leg cinched up to apply pressure. Another reason I use the ear pinch.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

metalone67 said:


> With the toe hitch I've heard that it can cause injury to the webbing on their feet. Is this true and one of the reasons I use the ear pinch?
> Another thing with the toe hitch is how do you do the walking fetch on the table when you have a leg cinched up to apply pressure. Another reason I use the ear pinch.


I use an e-collar its less personal and I don't need to teach it twice.

I don't like to see my dog cringe when I pet his ears.


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> I use an e-collar its less personal and I don't need to teach it twice.
> 
> I don't like to see my dog cringe when I pet his ears.


Never had that happen. all my dogs like their ears rubbed and scratched by me. They must understand the difference. HMM go figure.


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## Clay Warren (Nov 3, 2009)

Ear pinch...I feel I have more control over the dog and can supply constant pressure should they go to squirming around. Plus I dont have to deal with strings around feet while having no control over the dogs head. In the intitial stage of force you can use your hands to direct the dogs head toward the bumper and simplify a lot faster (if need be) in order to show them how to turn off the pressure. This is especially true when going into ground fetch where you can pinch one ear and use a hand on the other ear if they are attempting any escape maneuvers.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

I always laugh when I see someone put the transmitter in their pocket and walk out for an ear pinch. 

How do you correct a refusal in the water swim out there?


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## Clay Warren (Nov 3, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> I always laugh when I see someone put the transmitter in their pocket and walk out for an ear pinch.
> 
> How do you correct a refusal in the water swim out there?


Ear pinch is just the intitial step. You should IMO move through stick fetch and collar fetch no matter the initial step (toe hitch or ear pinch). If you start out of the gate with the collar more often than not you will end up using a lot of pressure with marginal results. Its pretty unfair to the dog and you would also need him to be CCed before you FF. And any good CC program is collar reinforcement of taught commands not teaching commands with the collar. You could end up with a very confused dog that has just had the crap burned out of him for something he didnt even know was expected of him.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ChocoLab21 said:


> Ear pinch is just the intitial step. You should IMO move through stick fetch and collar fetch no matter the initial step (toe hitch or ear pinch). If you start out of the gate with the collar more often than not you will end up using a lot of pressure with marginal results. Its pretty unfair to the dog and you would also need him to be CCed before you FF. And any good CC program is collar reinforcement of taught commands not teaching commands with the collar. You could end up with a very confused dog that has just had the crap burned out of him for something he didnt even know was expected of him.


Or you could take your time with little pressure and have a great dog that learns much faster and has a great attitude. Both methods can be abused.

I wont ask your knowledge about teaching commands with an ecollar but I will say this. You dont take a fully trained dog and strap a collar on and start giving commands and correcting the dog with the ecollar. 

Even if a dog is fully trained you still need to teach him how to shut the pressure off by going over each known command *again* with the ecollar.

Mike Lardy-The e-collar involves teaching in a positive enviorment...During CC the dog will learn that the correction is coming from the handler and not the general enviorment...

Simply burning a trained dog for refusing a known command is not how its done in any CC program that I ever seen.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

metalone67 said:


> With the toe hitch I've heard that it can cause injury to the webbing on their feet. Is this true and one of the reasons I use the ear pinch?
> Another thing with the toe hitch is how do you do the walking fetch on the table when you have a leg cinched up to apply pressure. Another reason I use the ear pinch.


Valid points IMO. One area which I don't want to mess with are the feet. Ears may get uncomfortable but I don't want to take any chances with the drive unit.

Cinch the collar up tight enough so that you can put your hand under it so that the collar isn't loose, but still comfortable for the dog, and you should be able to drive the dog's head just about anyway you need within reason. An out of control dog can change that quickly which is why solid obedience becomes so important.


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## Clay Warren (Nov 3, 2009)

PackLeader said:


> Or you could take your time with little pressure and have a great dog that learns much faster and has a great attitude. Both methods can be abused.
> 
> I wont ask your knowledge about teaching commands with an ecollar but I will say this. You dont take a fully trained dog and strap a collar on and start giving commands and correcting the dog with the ecollar.
> 
> ...


Exactly why it is called "Collar Conditioning". You condition the dog to understand where the pressure is coming from and why and also what is expected to turn the pressure off. Its the process of substituting one type of pressure for another: leash to collar, stick to collar, pinch/hitch to collar etc. Like I said you employ the tool of remote reinforcement on taught commands you dont teach with the collar. I never implied burning a dog on a whim that hasnt been CCd. Since you quoted Lardy I assume that you may be familiar with his program. You will notice then that one of his principles of training is "Don't teach with the e-collar" and that he places collar conditioning after force fetch in his training progression. So my question to you is how do you take a dog that may or may not be CCd and teach the fetch command? You yourself said you cant simply strap a collar on a dog and start burning on known commands without being conditioned so how do you do that when the command isnt even known? Maybe Iam just not seeing how saying fetch and pressing the burn button works as an exclusive way to teach fetch.


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

ChocoLab21 said:


> Exactly why it is called "Collar Conditioning". You condition the dog to understand where the pressure is coming from and why and also what is expected to turn the pressure off. Like I said you employ the tool of remote reinforcement on taught commands you dont teach with the collar. I never implied burning a dog on a whim that hasnt been CCd. Since you quoted Lardy I assume that you may be familiar with his program. You will notice then that one of his principles of training is "Don't teach with the e-collar" and that he places collar conditioning after force fetch in his training progression. So my question to you is how do you take a dog that may or may not be CCd and teach the fetch command? You yourself said you cant simply strap a collar on a dog and start burning on known commands without being conditioned so how do you do that when the command isnt even known? Maybe Iam just not seeing how saying fetch and pressing the burn button works as an exclusive way to teach fetch.


Im not correcting im teaching..Two totaly diffrent levels of stimulation..I also CC before I FF. 

Now the dog has learned to understand the stimulation already for every command. 

Why would I start pinching ears or pulling toes now and risk my bond with the dog when I can simply do what have been doing since day 1?

Obviously everyone has an oppinion and will do what they want. I know of a few field trainers who started out using ML methods years ago and have converted. A few people from RTF even PM me to tell me they use the same method and dont want the drama to admit it here I guess.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

PackLeader said:


> I always laugh when I see someone put the transmitter in their pocket and walk out for an ear pinch.
> 
> How do you correct a refusal in the water swim out there?


I've NEVER had a dog refuse to pick up a bird/bumper in the water--which is why you would use an ear pinch or a toe hitch. Of course I've always thought that a "fetch" command isn't what you use when sending the dog for a water retrieve either.


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

metalone67 said:


> With the toe hitch I've heard that it can cause injury to the webbing on their feet. Is this true and one of the reasons I use the ear pinch?
> Another thing with the toe hitch is how do you do the walking fetch on the table when you have a leg cinched up to apply pressure. Another reason I use the ear pinch.


Yes you can and I've seen one dog get a severe foot infection. The key is the size (width),quality and type of twine to use. I use a cord from a chainsaw. It's wide and doesn't cause any damage. 

I don't do the walking fetch on the table. I move to the floor. I hold the bumper and the dog has to reach for the bumper and on the 3rd/4th try I place it on the ground. Once he's fetching off the ground we move into a walking fetch. 

It seems everyone has a different system. As long as it works for you that's the main thing.


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## az hunter (Nov 13, 2008)

My 2 cents in the matter do it *All *you never know what is going to happen down the line. you are not going to swim accross a river or into a pond or lake to correct so you use a collar dogs can have problems with their ears down the line (my dogs problem) so you use the toe. its better to do it all that way you can remind the dog any way you want even years down the line...


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## goldensrule (Feb 20, 2010)

I will go out on a limb and ask this question: Why would the pain/discomfort from pinching an ear or toe be any more humane than using the collar at the same point in training?


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## PackLeader (Jan 12, 2009)

goldensrule said:


> I will go out on a limb and ask this question: Why would the pain/discomfort from pinching an ear or toe be any more humane than using the collar at the same point in training?



I dont know why would it?


The dog is already used to collar pressure?

I don't have to touch him?

I can be more consistent with a collar?

I don't need to train him twice? Once with ear pinch then with e-collar.

I can correct for things like rolling and chomping?

Any reason why ear pinch is better?


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## goldensrule (Feb 20, 2010)

Packleader,
thanks for sharing your method. I have often wondered whay its Ok to pinch an ear to force a dog to reach, but not the collar.

I guess we are still waiting some input.


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

The Snows said:


> No one mentioned .... if you have a dog who is fighting you on this, the toe pinch keeps your hand away from the dog's mouth should he want to try to grab you.


That's why I wear gloves when doing the toe pinch on the table.


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