# Silver labs orgin???



## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

All this talk lately about Silvers. Does anyone know...with CONCRETE proof where/how this color has derived from? I've heard many ideas, thoughts and theories but don't know if anyone can be proven fact. Is it a gene, is it another breed mixed in. Who has evidence-proof-FACT? Just curious.


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

vergy said:


> All this talk lately about Silvers. Does anyone know...with CONCRETE proof where/how this color has derived from? I've heard many ideas, thoughts and theories but don't know if anyone can be proven fact. Is it a gene, is it another breed mixed in. Who has evidence-proof-FACT? Just curious.


You stated before you were a personal friend of Mayo Kellogg, what are your thoughts?


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

I think that is a very interesting theory and very well could be true. I just wonder if there has ever been something proven? Can that story be proved....and can you tell it again? I can't remember it exactly. I never did see any silvers in the visits we had.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Of course not, because for concrete proof they would have to dig up the bones to get original DNA from the source of the dilute gene parent, and that isn't going to happen. Kellogg just let them all interbreed. That's why Dean Crist offered his "reward" and no one could come up with it. http://labradornet.com/silverlabsanalysis.html


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

You know Nancy what really ticks me off is that you and I have spent decades trying to improve chocolate field Labradors and we get stuck with the "silvers" tied to chocolates. Keep it up. I just say "no."


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

swliszka said:


> You know Nancy what really ticks me off is that you and I have spent decades trying to improve chocolate field Labradors and we get stuck with the "silvers" tied to chocolates. Keep it up. I just say "no."


Exactly, and we never heard of a silver until they emerged in the Milwaukee Journal classifieds for $2000 in the 80's advertised by Crist Culo kennels. I think in time they will fade away like the Doodles. Why try to compete and breed them when you can buy the real deal Labradors that like water and don't have to deal with the Alopecia and other dilute health problems.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

So is it a dilute gene of sorts like the yellow originally was? Or cross breeding? Do we know for sure? btw EE that link wouldn't open


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

https://notosilverlabs.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/all-dilutes-come-from-two-kelloggs-dogs/


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The most conclusive proof to date is the pedigree analysis done by a statistician tracing 98% of all known silver pedigrees to 2 brothers, out of one particular kennel which also had weimeriners link above. This added to the fact that silver was never described in the labrador ever and they had many weird, colors and patterns documented initially. Nothing of silver till the 50s and then hush hush, until bam kdifferent and popular.


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

No not like yellow or chocolate. The first Labrador was registered in 1917, the first yellow in 1929, the first liver [ or chocolate ] in 1932. So in 15 years all three colors were registered. Then 50 years later the mutts showed up. Vic


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## ZEKESMAN (Mar 22, 2008)

vergy said:


> All this talk lately about Silvers. Does anyone know...with CONCRETE proof where/how this color has derived from? I've heard many ideas, thoughts and theories but don't know if anyone can be proven fact. Is it a gene, is it another breed mixed in. Who has evidence-proof-FACT? Just curious.


Fact, no silvers in Europe. If the gene would have been present in the breed it would have shown up there also. Fact LRC says no dilute.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Silver Bullet time. Burning my old Fosters and Smith dog catalogs (fireplace) and by chance found a whole bunch of silvers in the various catalogs--pups and dogs. Who gets over to their Wisconsin operation and perhaps could "explain" our concern since they have now gone big!


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think F & S were bought out even though they are still part of business. Writing letters or emails might get to the right place. Lots of Silvers up north


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

swliszka said:


> You know Nancy what really ticks me off is that you and I have spent decades trying to improve chocolate field Labradors and we get stuck with the "silvers" tied to chocolates. Keep it up. I just say "no."



I am a black guy to the bone, but the issue you raise with Silvers registered as chocolates I agree. As a good friend stated, "will never touch a chocolate because you have no idea if the black dog you bought who had a chocolate three generations back was actually a silver". Seems now every dog needs to be DNA profiled, thank AKC for this. I would have bet had the FT/HT community told AKC "BY" or stop this things would have been different.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> I am a black guy to the bone, but the issue you raise with Silvers registered as chocolates I agree. As a good friend stated, "will never touch a chocolate because you have no idea if the black dog you bought who had a chocolate three generations back was actually a silver". Seems now every dog needs to be DNA profiled, thank AKC for this. I would have bet had the FT/HT community told AKC "BY" or stop this things would have been different.


They now have diluteblacks,(charcoal)and dilute yellows (champagne)


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Bridget Bodine said:


> They now have diluteblacks,(charcoal)and dilute yellows (champagne)


Then about time lab people stop this AKC crap, period. I am very careful and educate myself before buying any pups. I guess we all need to DNA profile for dilutes. This easily could have been stopped by simply confronting AKC and then following up, if that meant leaving AKC then so be it. If AKC is going to register anything because they pay the money then really what registry do we really have? NONE


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

I have seen some of these charcoal pups. I have to admit- they are kinda pretty. In the long run...does it even matter anymore if a dog is registered? I mean seriously what is the point? I've always thought AKC was a bit money hungry. You pay $1000+ for a well bred registered lab and then see other breeders sell out of goldendoodles even faster and for more. I saw an ad for a lab/shorhair cross that they were asking 800 for. They were selling too. Instead of sticking with its principals I feel akc is slowly joining in.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

This also brings up the pointing lab. Being friends with old Mayo years ago I was always under the impression that his kennel was also the founder of the pointing lab? Well if so is this because of the weim?? Then are all pointing labs not genetically pure? Then again a labrador was produced from a bunch of mixed dogs as well including hounds and pointers. So...where is the point coming from?


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

vergy said:


> So is it a dilute gene of sorts like the yellow originally was? Or cross breeding? Do we know for sure? btw EE that link wouldn't open


The dilution gene is a separate gene that modifies the base coat color (chocolate to gray, yellow to pale cream, black to charcoal). It is recessive, so it could remain hidden for generations, and it won't modify the coat color unless the dog inherits 2 copies of it (one from each parent). And at this point, it doesn't matter if it was a dog found with that recessive gene bred/inbred or fraudulently registered Weim/Lab crosses; the gene was selected against. Think of some of the breeds that are ancestors to Labs and crossed on those early St. Johns dogs before a uniform standard was established and the stud books closed. Some of those breeds had qualities that no doubt when they appeared, were selected against and culled. If the dilution gene was ever present, off colored puppies would've been culled as well. So, whether it was via fraudulent registration or the discovery of this gene and selecting for, rather than against it, is just sheer arrogance and stupidity (and greed).


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## HoHum's Retrievers (Mar 22, 2007)

vergy said:


> This also brings up the pointing lab. Being friends with old Mayo years ago I was always under the impression that his kennel was also the founder of the pointing lab? Well if so is this because of the weim?? Then are all pointing labs not genetically pure? Then again a labrador was produced from a bunch of mixed dogs as well including hounds and pointers. So...where is the point coming from?


I have heard that Mayo was working to intensify the natural pointing ability in his pointing labs and that may have been why/how the weims may have been crossed with the labs. 

As for where pointing labs came from...I've owned a couple of goldens that have pointed. It wasn't a skill I trained for or a trait that I saw reliably, but every once in a while my dogs would point a bird. Most often it was a hen sitting really tight late in the season. Seldom pointed a rooster as those wiley roosters are already on the run if they can as soon as they hear you coming down the field. I think it is possible that quite a few of our breeds would/could point if we watched for the trait and bred to that. And, although it wouldn't be as easy and as natural, I think if a trainer really wanted to work at it, and I mean work really hard, a person could perhaps even train a dog of any breed to point. It is about a conditioned response to a stimulus. When the dog scents the bird they stop and stand still...right? If you were to begin with a retriever puppy at a very early age and instead of encouraging them to chase and retrieve that bumper, or tennis ball, or wing, or pigeon with reckless abandon like we all do with our 7-8 week old bundles of joy but instead exposed them to the scent of a pigeon, quail, pheasant, or grouse hidden under a box or in a wire crate or in a clump of brush and said "whoa" and taught them to stand every time, you might be able to condition that puppy to "point" rather than flush. Yep, it would be contradictory to the puppy's natural instinct, but I think if a person really wanted to it could be done. I have no desire to do it. If I wanted a pointing dog I'd go out and get one. So where did the "pointing lab" come from? Perhaps Mayo just really worked hard to breed those dogs that were showing the natural tendency to point.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

vergy said:


> This also brings up the pointing lab. Being friends with old Mayo years ago I was always under the impression that his kennel was also the founder of the pointing lab? Well if so is this because of the weim?? Then are all pointing labs not genetically pure? Then again a labrador was produced from a bunch of mixed dogs as well including hounds and pointers. So...where is the point coming from?


The Labrador breed origin was first and primary a retriever, bring game back to hand, usually in a driven hunt scenario; where they only retrieve they don't flush nor point. As such their uplands style was open to interpretation, pointing was never really selected for; but it wasn't selected against either. There have always been Labradors that would Pause somewhat and some that would do it, for a very long time. I have 2 of these dogs, have friends with others, all of which from completely different lines, many with highly noteworthy FC AFC old-time DC etc. dogs, going back for generations. These dogs have never been advertised, marketed nor developed as pointing labs, also their pedigrees have never been, and continue to not be in any way associated with Mayo Kelloggs lines or kennels. Yet they have a tendency to pause, point if you want to call it that, although it's my preference to never develop the trait, sometimes it's nice to have a little pause to get the gun ready for a dog to flush a bird.

Still to date I haven't yet heard of Silver Pointing labs, which I assume would be highly marketable, so if such a cross happened, most-likely it did not result in improved pointing ability. Wiems are all dd genetically, if they were used to develop a pointing lab, while trying toenhance the pointing trait through line-breeding (sometimes very tight-line breeding) a Dd to Dd status should've lined up and silver puppies should've been seen in pointing lab litters. It's highly challenging to get rid of a recessive gene once it's introduced, and back in that day there wasn't genetic tests.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

vergy said:


> Who has evidence-proof-FACT? Just curious.


Since you stated knowing the principle thought to have been one of the originators, would you be willing to identify yourself? Will you list your name? Also curious. Thanks, Harry


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Julie R. said:


> The dilution gene is a separate gene that modifies the base coat color (chocolate to gray, yellow to pale cream, black to charcoal). It is recessive, so it could remain hidden for generations, and it won't modify the coat color unless the dog inherits 2 copies of it (one from each parent). And at this point, it doesn't matter if it was a dog found with that recessive gene bred/inbred or fraudulently registered Weim/Lab crosses; the gene was selected against. Think of some of the breeds that are ancestors to Labs and crossed on those early St. Johns dogs before a uniform standard was established and the stud books closed. Some of those breeds had qualities that no doubt when they appeared, were selected against and culled. If the dilution gene was ever present, off colored puppies would've been culled as well. So, whether it was via fraudulent registration or the discovery of this gene and selecting for, rather than against it, is just sheer arrogance and stupidity (and greed).



Excellent posts! Wow to even mention the word "cull" on this forum will have you locking your doors at night and driving with a guard. Culling is essential to developing a breed and to perfect the breed. Hound people for years have understood this, I agree with it totally, however the retriever folks feel almost every dog is breeding stock and every dog will "make it" fact is many dogs will not make a top retriever and many will not make a top hound, etc.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Excellent posts! Wow to even mention the word "cull" on this forum will have you locking your doors at night and driving with a guard. Culling is essential to developing a breed and to perfect the breed. Hound people for years have understood this, I agree with it totally, however the retriever folks feel almost every dog is breeding stock and every dog will "make it" fact is many dogs will not make a top retriever and many will not make a top hound, etc.


I'm "retriever folks" and I don't think that...Culling is an extreme. Selective breeding does the same thing, No?

Some want the next NFC, some want an FC, some want a companion dog.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

HarryWilliams said:


> Since you stated knowing the principle thought to have been one of the originators, would you be willing to identify yourself? Will you list your name? Also curious. Thanks, Harry


Yes, Harry thank you. I thought the same.....


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

John Lash said:


> I'm "retriever folks" and I don't think that...Culling is an extreme. Selective breeding does the same thing, No?
> 
> Some want the next NFC, some want an FC, some want a companion dog.



NO selective breeding does not......culling is deleting what is already here and did not work. You are correct some do want NFC and have the deep pockets to get there, not just the dog. Some such as myself, hunt hard with my dogs picking up hundreds of wild birds each fall. We all have our goals my point is no matter what your goals not every puppy will make that goal.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

At what age do you cull dogs that aren't up to snuff?

How is culling better than selective breeding?

Wouldn't culling be more likely done when starting a breed of dog?

I don't think all puppies can reach one's goals.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

HoHum's Retrievers said:


> I have heard that Mayo was working to intensify the natural pointing ability in his pointing labs and that may have been why/how the weims may have been crossed with the labs.
> 
> As for where pointing labs came from...I've owned a couple of goldens that have pointed. It wasn't a skill I trained for or a trait that I saw reliably, but every once in a while my dogs would point a bird. Most often it was a hen sitting really tight late in the season. Seldom pointed a rooster as those wiley roosters are already on the run if they can as soon as they hear you coming down the field. I think it is possible that quite a few of our breeds would/could point if we watched for the trait and bred to that. And, although it wouldn't be as easy and as natural, I think if a trainer really wanted to work at it, and I mean work really hard, a person could perhaps even train a dog of any breed to point. It is about a conditioned response to a stimulus. When the dog scents the bird they stop and stand still...right? If you were to begin with a retriever puppy at a very early age and instead of encouraging them to chase and retrieve that bumper, or tennis ball, or wing, or pigeon with reckless abandon like we all do with our 7-8 week old bundles of joy but instead exposed them to the scent of a pigeon, quail, pheasant, or grouse hidden under a box or in a wire crate or in a clump of brush and said "whoa" and taught them to stand every time, you might be able to condition that puppy to "point" rather than flush. Yep, it would be contradictory to the puppy's natural instinct, but I think if a person really wanted to it could be done. I have no desire to do it. If I wanted a pointing dog I'd go out and get one. So where did the "pointing lab" come from? Perhaps Mayo just really worked hard to breed those dogs that were showing the natural tendency to point.


I had a BLM out of Ruff and Reddy in the 80's that showed that natural talent....He'd lift a paw and stand looking at ???..... then one day in central texas he got hit by a rattle snake on that paw....he survived but it was a "ruff" night....Dam dog had no fear...


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

At this point in the breed i don't think you'll find culling.....too many greedy breeding facilities that care less about their product....hence all the junk or cheap pups....Previous post about cost of pups....You as a buyer get what you pay for BUT be ware of breeders that could care less about the end result..... I always ask my clients what they paid for the dog that they bring to me and almost always the LOW priced dog, BIL dog or whatever never makes it past 8 years of age...has cancer or some other genetic issue... Pay up front or pay on the end.


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## seaandland (Feb 19, 2015)

*What color is this dog*

My friend just sent me this photo asking what color this dog is..


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Looks like a chocolate in a sun spot...


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## mngundog (Mar 25, 2011)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> The Labrador breed origin was first and primary a retriever, bring game back to hand, usually in a driven hunt scenario; where they only retrieve they don't flush nor point. As such their uplands style was open to interpretation, pointing was never really selected for; but it wasn't selected against either. There have always been Labradors that would Pause somewhat and some that would do it, for a very long time. I have 2 of these dogs, have friends with others, all of which from completely different lines, many with highly noteworthy FC AFC old-time DC etc. dogs, going back for generations. These dogs have never been advertised, marketed nor developed as pointing labs, also their pedigrees have never been, and continue to not be in any way associated with Mayo Kelloggs lines or kennels. Yet they have a tendency to pause, point if you want to call it that, although it's my preference to never develop the trait, sometimes it's nice to have a little pause to get the gun ready for a dog to flush a bird.
> 
> Still to date I haven't yet heard of Silver Pointing labs, which I assume would be highly marketable, so if such a cross happened, most-likely it did not result in improved pointing ability. Wiems are all dd genetically, if they were used to develop a pointing lab, while trying toenhance the pointing trait through line-breeding (sometimes very tight-line breeding) a Dd to Dd status should've lined up and silver puppies should've been seen in pointing lab litters. It's highly challenging to get rid of a recessive gene once it's introduced, and back in that day there wasn't genetic tests.


http://www.lankaslabs.com/prices/


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

HarryWilliams said:


> Since you stated knowing the principle thought to have been one of the originators, would you be willing to identify yourself? Will you list your name? Also curious. Thanks, Harry


Not sure what you are asking...want to know who I am???


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## Lesa Cozens Dauphin (Sep 13, 2005)

It looks like a silver with alopecia.


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

mngundog said:


> http://www.lankaslabs.com/prices/


I met the Lankases a looooong time ago before all the silver/charcoal/ivory shenanigans was going on in the world. Seemed like nice people at the time, but there are a lot of people with differing motives that seem nice.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

vergy said:


> All this talk lately about Silvers. Does anyone know...with CONCRETE proof where/how this color has derived from? I've heard many ideas, thoughts and theories but don't know if anyone can be proven fact. Is it a gene, is it another breed mixed in. Who has evidence-proof-FACT? Just curious.


I'm more than certain if you were just curios you would have googled it by now ? ..If not before posting.


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## Billie (Sep 19, 2004)

Lesa Cozens Dauphin said:


> It looks like a silver with alopecia.


Yes thats what I thought too Lesa. The ruff on the neck and nothing behind it , hair loss,etc...


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## seaandland (Feb 19, 2015)

mwk56 said:


> Looks like a chocolate in a sun spot...


The dog was sold as black with AKC papers..


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Can't handle culling? Have the animal neutered or spayed before they leave your possession.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Although you can't prevent breeding without papers, limited Registration works well because most people won't breed and sell without papers. That way they can get health certs done before they receive full papers.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

polmaise said:


> I'm more than certain if you were just curios you would have googled it by now ? ..If not before posting.


I hope you don't gamble then because your certainty would empty your pockets pretty quick. I am then certain..you are one the members on here that have a ego bigger than your brain?? 
I did not google it, I asked it one here to start a casual conversation. I like talking dogs period. Isn't this what the site is for??? As I have read on this site several times there are many on here that are great people and like to do the same. Then there are others who believe they are dog gods and all knowing and like to stir pots and make accusations and prove how awesome they are...over a keyboard. You'll see by my few posts compared to how long Ive been a member that I've seen through many members BS. I have realized this site is not a safe place for the average dog owner. EGO maniacs on here. As far as who I am...I am a nobody in the dog training, campaigning world. Now that you know that you wouldn't want to talk to me. I like well bred healthy dogs. I train them to a fairly decent level and hunt them hard! I may be a nobody in the training world but I would possibly be your king in the hunting world. Living where I live and hunting as hard as I do I most likely harvest and dogs pick up more birds in a season than most on here do in 5 seasons. My relation to old mayo kellogg was just friends. In the 80s-90s my dad owned a printing business and we struck a deal with him. We would print his letter heads and business papers etc in exchange for hunting dogs. We had wonderful dogs from him that were super nice and were incredible hunters. That's it. I was a dumb HS/college kids those years. I apologize for starting a dog conversation on a "DOG" site. I will refrain from upsetting the upper class that resides here.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

seaandland said:


> The dog was sold as black with AKC papers..


Really hard to tell with one photo. Even then I have seen some black that at certain times of year will sun-fade and turn practically red; I have a girl that oftentimes I wondered whether she is chocolate or black (from her litter she had the potential to be either), was born black with red highlights; and mentally she is oftentimes chocolate . Have also seen chocolates so dark that people would confuse them as black, only knew they were chocolate, from eye-rim color and they came from chocolateXchocolate (seems Dakota Roux lines throw DARK DARK Chocolate). Could also have messed up registration clicked the wrong box etc. Still this looks like a black with sun-fade, which has rolled in the dirt. Might be checking a dog like this thyroid or for addisons; certain conditions can cause a significant change in coloration. A friend has a Black dog that developed Addisons, turned completely chocolate-Red, with light-grayish in the under-coat.


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## Julie R. (Jan 13, 2003)

John Lash said:


> I'm "retriever folks" and I don't think that...Culling is an extreme. Selective breeding does the same thing, No?
> 
> Some want the next NFC, some want an FC, some want a companion dog.


Culling, the way I used it, doesn't necessarily mean that puppy or dog ended up being drowned or shot or otherwise dispatched. Although no doubt that happened in the early days, culling simply means that puppy was not deemed fit for what the breeder desired, because (unlike the doodle and silver Lab breeders) they had a blueprint for what the breed should be and later, after the stud books were closed, a breed standard. So it wasn't recorded nor was it used for development of the breed. Practiced today, culling simply means sold on limited registration, on a spay/neuter arrangement, or without papers.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

vergy said:


> Not sure what you are asking...want to know who I am???


I thought I was fairly clear. But yes, I thought you might identify yourself to provide credibility to your comments. That's why I asked? It's always good to know who you are talking with. Thanks, Harry


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

It's more important to focus on how we go forward than how we got here. 

If a DNA swab will show the dilute gene, then that should be done with as many dogs as possible. FDSB pointing dogs must submit a DNA swab if they win a championship. The CH will be withheld if they don't. Maybe all Derby, Quals and MH dogs should be required to submit a swab?


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

Zach Fisher said:


> It's more important to focus on how we go forward than how we got here.
> 
> If a DNA swab will show the dilute gene, then that should be done with as many dogs as possible. FDSB pointing dogs must submit a DNA swab if they win a championship. The CH will be withheld if they don't. Maybe all Derby, Quals and MH dogs should be required to submit a swab?


I like this idea.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Zach Fisher said:


> It's more important to focus on how we go forward than how we got here.
> 
> If a DNA swab will show the dilute gene, then that should be done with as many dogs as possible. FDSB pointing dogs must submit a DNA swab if they win a championship. The CH will be withheld if they don't. Maybe all Derby, Quals and MH dogs should be required to submit a swab?


That's not going to happen because that's AKC and they don't want anything to do with it. And why derby and qual and not a stake with the championship points?


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

No one can prove where the dilute gene came from. Was it history A. from weim interbreeding? Or was it History B. from factored dogs that had passed it down from Chessy's or other foundation dogs before the stud books closed, no one will know for sure. Regardless, they have been bred with standard color labs for over 50 years now, they are 100% lab whether people like it or not. AKC - the registry not the LRC - not the parent club is the one who tells people if they have a dog of a particular dilute color to register it as Black, Yellow, or Chocolate. The people themselves feel as if they are doing what the authoritative company is telling them to do, since they believe them to be purebred. You can't blame regular people for following what they think is right. All of that to say mostly it is the case because people don't understand how AKC works and parent clubs who set the standards. Regardless Dilute dogs are here to stay and aren't going anywhere any time soon, just like Chocolate dogs didn't go away, and were hated by many for many years, and still are by some. There is a stalemate, in AKC and not much anyone is going to do about it anytime soon.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Sadly the AKC is playing both sides because it's financially beneficial for them to continue to allow dilutes to be falsely registered. 

It is not fact that a dog carrying the dilute gene is 100% Labrador and there is no DNA test that can tell you. 

All anyone can do is look at the actual facts which all point to the gene being introduced into the breed.

....see that most breeders who breed dilute dogs do it only for color. 

.....see that most dilute carrying dogs underperform in all competitive venues. 

......see that the vast majority of dilute breeders do not health test.

......see that health issues run rampant within the dilute carrying dogs.



There is nobody with common sense, without an agenda or a bias can look at the facts about how and when the first "labs" carrying the dilute gene appeared and not come to the conclusion that the gene was introduced.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I hope people keep doing the Dilute DNA test and refuse to breed to dilutes. My guess it is starting to have the desired affect.


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

ErinsEdge said:


> I hope people keep doing the Dilute DNA test and refuse to breed to dilutes. My guess it is starting to have the desired affect.


Sure hope so ErinsEdge.. Im testing mine even tho i know shes clear... Bryan Parks I really wish we had a like button on this forum...


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> I hope people keep doing the Dilute DNA test and refuse to breed to dilutes. My guess it is starting to have the desired affect.


I forget which company it was Probably PawPrints, but last time I did DNA testing the D test was tagged on with the rest of the Panel, or it was listed under other tests, right up front (didn't have to go looking for it, and was discounted). So now I have d testing; and most likely will have it from now on; after all why-not? .


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

These are all false statements.

....see that most breeders who breed dilute dogs do it only for color. 

Many do it with color and other things in mind, not color only.

.....see that most dilute carrying dogs underperform in all competitive venues. 

Most are still trying to overcome the stigmas and prejudice that come with owning them.

......see that the vast majority of dilute breeders do not health test.

Actually, most dilute breeders now seem to test more than non dilute breeders. 

......see that health issues run rampant within the dilute carrying dogs.

There are no more health issues in dilutes than in the regular colors, because a few dogs with skin issues ( which are few ) pop up, there are other color labs with skin issues, the standard 3 as well, but everyone attributes allergies to it. ( I'm not sayin no dogs with issues but its blown way out of porportion ) It's a red herring, there are thousands of healthy Silver, Charcoal, Champagne labs that are perfectly healthy.

People are still breeding dilutes but doing it better and they have been for about the last 10 years. I know they had a rough start, but like all of them they start out rough and improve over time.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

SLAB said:


> These are all false statements.
> 
> ....see that most breeders who breed dilute dogs do it only for color.
> 
> Many do it with color and other things in mind, not color only.


Please identify one dilute breeder (name or website) that does not advertise color first and foremost. Labradoodle, Goldiepoo, Whatadoodle, etc, breeders don't count.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> SLAB said:
> 
> 
> > These are all false statements.
> ...


Exactly

So I'm supposed to believe these dilute breeders are just breeding the best dogs they can with color as an after thought?

Yeah right...

I'm sure the reason they don't perform as well is because of the "stigma" they are trying to over come...I'm literally laughing.

You know because FT breeders/trainers are all about conformation and wouldn't dare take on dog that could perform in the field but wasn't of correct conformation...LOL!!


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

There is documented proof that a condition called dilute allopecia is very common in silvers. It causes total hair loss. These dogs are also susceptible to skin cancer.

I have never been to a “silver” breeder site that shows full registered names of their dogs, or lists all the health clearance numbers or links to prove the testing.

Meredith


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Dead horse, of course, but what the heck. AKC let them in, and won't force them out, won't admit they screwed up in the first place. Reputable breeders are doing their part to keep out the dilute, by testing to keep the dilute out of their dogs, by knowing their pedigrees, by screening to keep from selling to dilute owners/breeders, by not using pros that are willing to train and run dilutes, etc etc. UKC/HRC is trying now to stop the influx of the dilutes being registered/run as Labradors, AKC doesn't have the guts to follow their lead. Dilute breeders are scammers, period. They don't give a rip about the Labrador breed. I do not know one, not one, REPUTABLE dilute breeder, because it's an oxymoron that a reputable LABRADOR breeder would touch dilutes, anymore than they would touch doodles. Do silver buyers love their dogs? Sure. Is it the dog's fault? Of course not. It is the false registration that is the issue.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

This is a dead horse, but you guys are so full of it *** Fake News *** for sure, just like the CNN Dems. But definately entertaining. They will get there it will just take a few more years, when all the haters die off, and they gain general acceptance but the general public. Foolishness over color for sure. . . but you all need to do a little google researching there are lots of good Dilute breeders out there, Not saying there aren't many crappy ones too, but there is a movement of diltue breeders healthtesting, doing hunt testing, ( of course not getting into the conformation ring, but maybe eventaully the factoreds ) and well you all can't stop it by whining about it, and wishing it didn't happen, or bullying and calling names. It will just happen whether you like it or not.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

SLAB said:


> These are all false statements.
> 
> ....see that most breeders who breed dilute dogs do it only for color.
> 
> Many do it with color and other things in mind, not color only.


Name one. Still waiting.
BTW, I did Google it. That did anything but help your position.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Like driving by a car crash, it's difficult to keep going without slowing down and looking!!!


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## taeicher (Jun 25, 2017)

*proverbs* *26:11*


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## PalouseDogs (Mar 28, 2012)

HarryWilliams said:


> Like driving by a car crash, it's difficult to keep going without slowing down and looking!!!


Ha ha. Spot on. Here I am, never owned a lab, probably never will (never say never, I guess), and I can't resist being a looky-loo.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Business must be down so comes the pot stirring.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Recently saw yet another Silver Lab - with coat and skin issues.

Sadly, I also recently discovered a backyard silver lab breeder in the neighboring town.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

SLAB said:


> This is a dead horse, but you guys are so full of it *** Fake News *** for sure, just like the CNN Dems. But definately entertaining. They will get there it will just take a few more years, when all the haters die off, and they gain general acceptance but the general public. Foolishness over color for sure. . . but you all need to do a little google researching there are lots of good Dilute breeders out there, Not saying there aren't many crappy ones too, but there is a movement of diltue breeders healthtesting, doing hunt testing, ( of course not getting into the conformation ring, but maybe eventaully the factoreds ) and well you all can't stop it by whining about it, and wishing it didn't happen, or bullying and calling names. It will just happen whether you like it or not.


SLAB - tell me.... Assuming you are a breeder... do you offer full (lifelong) medical coverage on pups who have alopecia and skin/hair issues? Do you know of any 'silver lab breeder' that does? If you are not a breeder, did your pup come with a guarantee that offered such coverage?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

SLAB said:


> This is a dead horse, but you guys are so full of it *** Fake News *** for sure, just like the CNN Dems. But definately entertaining. They will get there it will just take a few more years, when all the haters die off, and they gain general acceptance but the general public. Foolishness over color for sure. . . but you all need to do a little google researching there are lots of good Dilute breeders out there, Not saying there aren't many crappy ones too, but there is a movement of diltue breeders healthtesting, doing hunt testing, ( of course not getting into the conformation ring, but maybe eventaully the factoreds ) and well you all can't stop it by whining about it, and wishing it didn't happen, or bullying and calling names. It will just happen whether you like it or not.


On a side note I also find it amusing that in most cases the dilute advocates are the ones who typically resort to some form of a childish name calling rant. Trying to provoke others by calling them Democrats...(I probably should be offended but I just consider the source.)

Then these same people turn around and say that the others are "bullies" and "name callers" 

I've seen this same scenario play out over and over on social media. 

Dilute breeder/advocate is confronted with actual valid arguments, 

dilute breeder can't really come up with anything to defend their point, 

dilute breeder/advocate gets feelings hurt, 

dilute breeder/advocate claims they are being bullied and being called names...

It's like a scene right off my 7 year old's playground.


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

SLAB said:


> This is a dead horse, but you guys are so full of it *** Fake News *** for sure, just like the CNN Dems. But definately entertaining. They will get there it will just take a few more years, when all the haters die off, and they gain general acceptance but the general public. Foolishness over color for sure. . . but you all need to do a little google researching there are lots of good Dilute breeders out there, Not saying there aren't many crappy ones too, but there is a movement of diltue breeders healthtesting, doing hunt testing, ( of course not getting into the conformation ring, but maybe eventaully the factoreds ) and well you all can't stop it by whining about it, and wishing it didn't happen, or bullying and calling names. It will just happen whether you like it or not.


Slab- i'd really like to know what is FAKE NEWS.. There are a hand full of silver breeders in my area. Know a couple unfortunate people that bought dogs from dif breeders and all have pretty much everything people are talking about. Heck one of them stated on ther FB they were getting out of the dog buss back in JULY but still breeding and selling dogs. Yes this one does eyes, eic and hips but thats it and dont offer any health guarantee at all. with pups starting at $800. 

I did my part and turned a young guy away from making a mistake , hes walking away from his deposit and getting a awesome dog from a great breeder in IL that offers it all.;


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

I still say we need a like button on here.. 

Tobias and Bryan Parks

Slab / dont think the haters are ever going away either they are just growning.. We arent really haters just hate seeing animals and the breed surfer from ignorance....


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

saltgrass said:


> I still say we need a like button on here..
> 
> Tobias and Bryan Parks
> 
> Slab / dont think the haters are ever going away either they are just growning.. We arent really haters just hate seeing animals and the breed surfer from ignorance....


I hate the fact that unscrupulous people are profiting from a marketing ploy at the expense of animals and uneducated consumers. I feel for the animals and owners.

Don't even get me started on the folks selling puppies out of the back of their cars at Walmart or Tractor Supply...


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## Dirty Doug (Sep 4, 2017)

Tobias, does any breeder anywhere of any breed offer that coverage? Not trying to start a pissing match and I don't care for silvers at all BUT heck I have a Chessie from a supposedly good kennel that is allergic to everything and has addisons disease that will not even call me.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Dirty Doug said:


> Tobias, does any breeder anywhere of any breed offer that coverage? Not trying to start a pissing match and I don't care for silvers at all BUT heck I have a Chessie from a supposedly good kennel that is allergic to everything and has addisons disease that will not even call me.


I am sure not, Doug... but Silver Lab breeders breed KNOWING there is a good possibility of skin and allergy issues with their 'breed'. And I am certain many such breeders do not know there is even such an issue.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Dirty Doug said:


> Tobias, does any breeder anywhere of any breed offer that coverage? Not trying to start a pissing match and I don't care for silvers at all BUT heck I have a Chessie from a supposedly good kennel that is allergic to everything and has addisons disease that will not even call me.


Thinking the same thing. There are some "breeders" that say they will guarantee for life but it's just a marketing ploy. I had a guy complaining about dandruff. After questioning him about shampooing his dog it turned out he did it multiple times a week. People that ask for lifetime guarantees and people not to sell a dog to


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

does anyone know what percentage of silver (dilute) labs have allergy/skin/hair problems?

Is it more/less/same as say hip dysplasia?

Seems to me, a breeder who breeds dilute labs, should know that color dilution alopecia is a very potential health issue with a dilute labrador and thus the condition should be guaranteed against, like hip dysplasia is.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

SLAB. Is that an acronym for SILVER LABS ARE BOGUS ?

Irishwhistler 🍀🇮🇪🇺🇸


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

Irishwhistler said:


> SLAB. Is that an acronym for SILVER LABS ARE BOGUS ?
> 
> Irishwhistler 


Where is the 'like' button for ^^^?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

HarryWilliams said:


> Like driving by a car crash, it's difficult to keep going without slowing down and looking!!!


Got to love the car wrecks, and realistically it'e been a very long time since one has been brought up on RTF; the forum has been itching for a good stir-up 



Rainmaker said:


> by not using pros that are willing to train and run dilutes. .


Agreed with most of what you have said, but not sure I agree with this portion. How is it a Pros responsibility to turn away dogs based on a weird coloration? Isn't it a Pros job to make his living by training dogs, which ever breed etc. It's not the owners of a dog fault if they fall prey to clever marketing, why shouldn't they be able to have they're dog trained. If anything getting professional training on such dogs, oftentimes opens an owner up to education. They learn more about a breed and most likely next time around make a better informed decision on what they want to own. I know a few pros who have trained off-colored dogs, everyone of those owners bought a normal colored Lab of better breeding, with health certifications and guarantees for their next dog. Many purchased the new pup while their off-color was still in training. Not sure it's in the best interest of a breed or the sports to try and cut owners who love their pets, off from education and resources.


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## DMT Wild (Jan 10, 2015)

Whenever I hear people talk about silver labs, doodles, and poo's it reminds me of a saying my grandad always repeated. "A fool and his money soon shall part". The only thing we can do is keep educating people.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Hunt'EmUp said:


> Got to love the car wrecks, and realistically it'e been a very long time since one has been brought up on RTF; the forum has been itching for a good stir-up
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed with most of what you have said, but not sure I agree with this portion. How is it a Pros responsibility to turn away dogs based on a weird coloration? Isn't it a Pros job to make his living by training dogs, which ever breed etc. It's not the owners of a dog fault if they fall prey to clever marketing, why shouldn't they be able to have they're dog trained. If anything getting professional training on such dogs, oftentimes opens an owner up to education. They learn more about a breed and most likely next time around make a better informed decision on what they want to own. I know a few pros who have trained off-colored dogs, everyone of those owners bought a normal colored Lab of better breeding, with health certifications and guarantees for their next dog. Many purchased the new pup while their off-color was still in training. Not sure it's in the best interest of a breed or the sports to try and cut owners who love their pets, off from education and resources.


I won't have my dogs on a truck with dilutes, meaning I won't have them running tests/trials with my pro if they are also running dilutes. For example, my pros post photos of client dogs on Facebook. I would be appalled if there was a dilute in that photoshoot and my dogs and name were right there too. Or I go to training group and there's dilute owner/breeder, well, no thanks, I won't be forced to associate with someone I so vehemently dislike on principle (they may be nice people but I refuse to condone what they do in breeding dilutes). Been there, done that, left that pro years ago. I'm simply not going to pay a pro to put me in a position I find unsupportable. I don't have to like every client of my pros or agree with them on all things, but, I draw the line at dilutes. Pros can make their own choices who they choose to accept as clients. I also have the choice on who I support financially. 

We can't stop them from running HT and FT, at least in AKC. Nor do I think it's the place to be rude to them, I've seen that too. I understand the anger and wanting to disallow them to run, but, the actual test/trial grounds is not the place for that. It should happen with AKC. Probably will never happen, been going on too long and AKC has let down the breed by allowing it, even encouraging it when they tell people to register silver as chocolate, but, we have the test and can keep ours pure, no sweat, the millers and byb and dilute breeders will just carry on as usual. But helping dilutes earn some HT titles keeps perpetuating the dilute, rewarding it, and I'm not funding anyone's bank account who is willing to do that. OB trainers? Go for it. Running AKC HT/FT? Nope. Not until they form their own breed.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

What I fail to understand is 1) why does AKC register charcoal and champagne dilutes as black and yellow. AKC has NEVER said that they can be registered as black and yellow, respectively, as they did with silvers. Dilute breeders claim that AKC has given that guidance. It's a lie. AKC clearly has to know it's going on and they're ignoring it. 2) why AKC persists in allowing silver dilutes to be registered as chocolates in view of the June 13, 2017 joint statement between LRC and AKC. That joint statement says:

"AKC/LRC Joint Statement on Alleged “Silver Labradors” 
June 13, 2017

According to the breed standard, established by the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc., there are three acceptable colors of Labrador Retrievers. Those colors are Black (all black), Yellow (fox-red to light cream), and Chocolate (light to dark chocolate). Silver is not an acceptable color of Labrador Retriever and is a disqualifying fault. Based on an agreement in 1987 between the American Kennel Club and the LRC, it was agreed that there was no proof that these silver dogs were not purebred and the breeders of the silver dogs subsequently registered them as chocolates.

Using parentage testing, it cannot conclusively be proven that silver Labradors are not purebred dogs or are crossed with Weimaraners. The Labrador Retriever breed does not carry the dilute gene dd that appears universally in the Weimaraner and is responsible for silver color.

Responsible breeders are tasked with breeding for health and standard and not solely for aesthetic. While we respect the choice of pet owners to select the breed of their choice, the LRC, Inc. does not view silver Labradors as appropriate breeding stock and believes that they should not be bred. They may compete in AKC events but are disqualified from the conformation show ring."

The second sentence of the second paragraph is dispositive of the dilute issue. "The Labrador Retriever breed *does not carry* the dilute gene dd that appears universally in the Weimaraner and is responsible for silver color." There's only one way to read that. AKC has agreed with LRC that if a dog represented as a Labrador retriever has the dilute gene it is not a Labrador retriever. Note, too, that the statement says "carr[ies] the dilute gene. The dilute gene is the recessive "d" found on the D locus. A purebred Lab carries two dominate genes on the D locus, i.e. "DD". Therefore, any dog that is either homozygous for the dilute gene ("dd") and phenotypically a dilute (charcoal, silver or champagne) *or* heterozygous for the dilute gene ("Dd") and phenotypically black, chocolate or yellow is *not* a purebred Labrador retriever. I fail to understand (other than their desire for money and to avoid what clearly will be a major fight and probable lawsuit with dilute breeders) why AKC ignores a statement that they agree with and persists in registering dilutes as purebred Labs.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Tobias said:


> SLAB - tell me.... Assuming you are a breeder... do you offer full (lifelong) medical coverage on pups who have alopecia and skin/hair issues? Do you know of any 'silver lab breeder' that does? If you are not a breeder, did your pup come with a guarantee that offered such coverage?


To date in 12 years, I've never had a pup who has suffered from hair skin issues or alopecia whatsoever. That is why the hyperoble about a few cases ( which is unfortuante and irresponsible for breeders to not do their homework ), but has nothing to do in general with the primary dilute population where thousands and thousands have been registered over the years.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Rainmaker said:


> I won't have my dogs on a truck with dilutes, meaning I won't have them running tests/trials with my pro if they are also running dilutes. For example, my pros post photos of client dogs on Facebook. I would be appalled if there was a dilute in that photoshoot and my dogs and name were right there too. Or I go to training group and there's dilute owner/breeder, well, no thanks, I won't be forced to associate with someone I so vehemently dislike on principle (they may be nice people but I refuse to condone what they do in breeding dilutes). Been there, done that, left that pro years ago. I'm simply not going to pay a pro to put me in a position I find unsupportable. I don't have to like every client of my pros or agree with them on all things, but, I draw the line at dilutes. Pros can make their own choices who they choose to accept as clients. I also have the choice on who I support financially.
> 
> We can't stop them from running HT and FT, at least in AKC. Nor do I think it's the place to be rude to them, I've seen that too. I understand the anger and wanting to disallow them to run, but, the actual test/trial grounds is not the place for that. It should happen with AKC. Probably will never happen, been going on too long and AKC has let down the breed by allowing it, even encouraging it when they tell people to register silver as chocolate, but, we have the test and can keep ours pure, no sweat, the millers and byb and dilute breeders will just carry on as usual. But helping dilutes earn some HT titles keeps perpetuating the dilute, rewarding it, and I'm not funding anyone's bank account who is willing to do that. OB trainers? Go for it. Running AKC HT/FT? Nope. Not until they form their own breed.


It's too late, they are now "Everywhere" every state all over the place. The Public has accepted them, now your remarks just simply seem 'racist'.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Here is a good article that was recently written, that demonstrates the history and demonstrates the public acceptance. https://www.thelabradorsite.com/charcoal-lab/


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## Rozet (Jul 4, 2012)

Uninformed public.


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Rozet said:


> Uninformed public.


once again like button... So many miss informed and unguided. 

As a buddy I was helping find a pup said.. 

Breeding the D would be like ..... 2 stupid people breeding..........................


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

This thread has influenced me to spend the time and money to have my current labrador tested for coat color at all three loci. 

Mine came back B/B, D/D, E/E. I was particularly pleased that the d locus was indeed devoid of the recessive gene.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Since the dilute test came, and the LRC encouraged Labrador owners to do the dilute test, many more people have done it and it serves to educate the public. Hopefully Silver sales have been affected, maybe even because people want to avoid health problems and skin issues.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

saltgrass said:


> Breeding the D would be like ..... 2 stupid people breeding..........................


And that happens often


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I find it odd and amusing that SLAB keeps bringing this post back up when anyone reading through this could only come to one conclusion...

Even if I knew nothing about it after reading through this I'd be more than convinced to stay away from silvers.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

ErinsEdge said:


> Since the dilute test came, and the LRC encouraged Labrador owners to do the dilute test, many more people have done it and it serves to educate the public. Hopefully Silver sales have been affected, maybe even because people want to avoid health problems and skin issues.


I started dilute testing mine after LRC recommended it on Nov. 1, 2016 and have encouraged my clients to do the same.

What continues to upset me is that AKC continues to register dilutes as Labrador retrievers despite having agreed with LRC, on June 13, 2017, that dilutes are not purebred Labs. Here is the June 13, 2017 Joint Statement:

"According to the breed standard, established by the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc., there are three accpetable colors of Labrador Retrievers. Those colors are Black (all black), Yellow (fox-red to light cream), and Chocolate (light to dark chocolate). Silver is not an acceptable color of Labrador Retriever and is a disqualifying fault. Based on an agreement in 1987 between the American Kennel Club and the LRC, it was agreed that there was no proof that these silver dogs were not purebred and the breeders of the silver dogs subsequently registered them as chocolates.

Using parentage testing, it cannot conclusively be proven that silver Labradors are not purebred dogs or are crossed with Weimaraners. The Labrador Retriever breed does not carry the dilute gene dd that appears universally in the Weimaraner and is responsible for silver color.

Responsible breeders are tasked with breeding for health and standard and not solely for aesthetic. While we respect the choice of pet owners to select the breed of their choice, the LRC, Inc. does not view silver Labradors as appropriate breeding stock and believes that they should not be bred. They may compete in AKC events but are disqualified from the conformation show ring." Here's the link to that page on the LRC website: https://thelabradorclub.com/news/akc-lrc-joint-statement-on-alleged-silver-labradors/

Read the second paragraph carefully. Regarding the first sentence, of course it can't conclusively be proven that silver Labradors are not purebred dogs or a crossed with Weimaraners using parentage testing. Parentage testing only determines sire and dam. Unless the dog being tested is the product of a first generation cross, parentage testing proves nothing other than who the sire and dam are. The second sentence is dispositive: AKC and LRC have agreed that the Labrador retriever does NOT carry the dilute gene. They also agree that the dilute gene appears universally in Weimaraners and is the gene responsible for the silver color. So, having agreed that Labs don't carry the dilute gene and that Weimaraners do, why does AKC persist in registering dilutes as Labs? My guess is that the reason is spelled M-O-N-E-Y. I'm sure, too, that they want to avoid the lawsuit that is sure to follow if they stop registering them.

Moreover, the 1987 agreement to register silvers as Labs, referred to in the first paragraph, only addressed silvers, not other dilutes (charcoals and champagnes). AKC has NEVER agreed to register other dilutes, despite what the dilute breeders claim. Why is AKC doing so? They prefer to ignore the problem (and the fraud of claiming in the registration form that a charcoal is a black and a champagne is a yellow).

What's the fix? Require dilute testing of ALL Labrador retriever puppies and submission of the test results at the time of registration. Simple solution in practice. But, I'm a realist. I'm 70 years old. My ashes will be mixed with all my buddies' ashes before AKC changes anything.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

Unless you submit a photo at the time of registration, AKC has no way of knowing that the dog is a dilute. The registration papers are submitted with one of the approved colors, so AKC is clueless.

Meredith


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Don Smith said:


> I started dilute testing mine after LRC recommended it on Nov. 1, 2016 and have encouraged my clients to do the same.
> 
> What continues to upset me is that AKC continues to register dilutes as Labrador retrievers despite having agreed with LRC, on June 13, 2017, that dilutes are not purebred Labs. Here is the June 13, 2017 Joint Statement:
> 
> ...


Good post.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

Thomas #91 X 2 and Kudos to Don Smith and his ashes.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> This thread has influenced me to spend the time and money to have my current labrador tested for coat color at all three loci.
> 
> Mine came back B/B, D/D, E/E. I was particularly pleased that the d locus was indeed devoid of the recessive gene.


Color testing and all it tells you is, OH How many ways a Dog Can be BLACK... LOL


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

mwk56 said:


> Unless you submit a photo at the time of registration, AKC has no way of knowing that the dog is a dilute. The registration papers are submitted with one of the approved colors, so AKC is clueless.
> 
> Meredith


Oh, I think AKC is not clueless. There is no way they can't know that charcoals and champagnes are fraudulently being registered as black and yellow, respectively. With all due respect, requiring a photo at the time of registration is an invitation for fraud unless the photo is certified by some independent body. On the other hand, requiring dilute testing, where the identity of the dog is verified, as with a microchip verification, is more difficult to falsify.


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

My point was that AKC is just a registry, and they are not responsible for setting breed standards. What is being submitted now is fraudulent—and people could use incorrect photos just as easily. The screw up was on the part of the national Labrador club and the DD test is the only obvious way at this time to try to close the barn doors.

And yes, my dogs are tested.

Meredith


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

mwk56 said:


> My point was that AKC is just a registry, and they are not responsible for setting breed standards. What is being submitted now is fraudulent—and people could use incorrect photos just as easily. The screw up was on the part of the national Labrador club and the DD test is the only obvious way at this time to try to close the barn doors.
> 
> And yes, my dogs are tested.
> 
> Meredith


I agree. And I have said the same as your first sentence many times. It seems to me that the LRC should determine what dogs can and cannot be registered. Period. It's a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Bryan Parks said:


> I find it odd and amusing that SLAB keeps bringing this post back up when anyone reading through this could only come to one conclusion...
> 
> Even if I knew nothing about it after reading through this I'd be more than convinced to stay away from silvers.


Yep you would think and hope....

I turned a young man away from a breeder around here breeding the D to a great litter with Krisy Evans. Im just supper stoked he had enough since to take the advice giving... Hate he lost a small deposit tho..


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## Henry1122 (Dec 21, 2018)

Obviously not, on the grounds that for solid verification they would need to uncover the issues that remains to be worked out unique DNA from the wellspring of the weaken quality parent, and that wouldn't occur


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Simple fix is require negative D-locus test for registration. Will never happen though.


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

vergy said:


> This also brings up the pointing lab. Being friends with old Mayo years ago I was always under the impression that his kennel was also the founder of the pointing lab? Well if so is this because of the weim?? Then are all pointing labs not genetically pure? Then again a labrador was produced from a bunch of mixed dogs as well including hounds and pointers. So...where is the point coming from?


I’ll put myself in the line of fire, so here goes. There’s no such thing as a “pointing lab’ or a “silver lab.” Labrador’s are a retrieving breed which contains black, yellow, and chocolate. Pretty simple, this topic reminds me of liberal politics, or better yet “incremental progressivism.” Buy your pups from known field trial pedigrees and this will never be an issue for you. 😏


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

jeff evans said:


> I’ll put myself in the line of fire, so here goes. There’s no such thing as a “pointing lab’ or a “silver lab.” Labrador’s are a retrieving breed which contains black, yellow, and chocolate. Pretty simple, this topic reminds me of liberal politics, or better yet “incremental progressivism.” Buy your pups from known field trial pedigrees and this will never be an issue for you. 😏


My old guy who is and NFC x FC/AFC is a pointing machine! I've never trained him for it nor require him to hold his points, he just does on grouse and pheasants. FWIW.....


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

ripline said:


> jeff evans said:
> 
> 
> > I’ll put myself in the line of fire, so here goes. There’s no such thing as a “pointing lab’ or a “silver lab.” Labrador’s are a retrieving breed which contains black, yellow, and chocolate. Pretty simple, this topic reminds me of liberal politics, or better yet “incremental progressivism.” Buy your pups from known field trial pedigrees and this will never be an issue for you. 😏
> ...


Yep, there are a lot of field lines that produce a natural point. The silver issue and pointing issue are no where near the same thing. 
Just FYI this paperwork is now being sent out with the new puppy paperwork by AKC. 


rabindranath tagore jana gana mana


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

The AKC made it clear that they would not entertain "looking back" and stripping registrations that are already in the books. They did not say anything about "looking forward" to future litters and registrations that haven't happened yet. Since the Lab club is in charge of all things Labrador, they need to work with the registrations department at the AKC and address the process needed to deal with this issue and incorporate a new process into the breed standard and registration requirements for the AKC and an effective date for the new requirements. Yes, for some this will really stink and cause major heartburn, but the integrity of the breed as we know it is at stake. It's time for people to quit sitting on their hands and take things up with the LRCA.


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## goldensrule (Feb 20, 2010)

I dont post a lot but a couple of points.
First minor, I have had 3 Goldens that would point. My best guess is that it was only when they hit a crosswind of body scent when they were close. But it was there and solid.

More importantly theres a local litter of labs being advertised and the stud is a silver. Been a bit of discussion. Pups are all chocloate. 1500 bucks no health certs done on parents. 

I have Goldens mostly but my wife had always wanted a weim. So I got her one and we had friends and family that wanted pups so we bred her. My son took a photo of one of the pups and its brilliant blue eyes. So Im looking at this pic on the wall and it got me thinking. So i did a search on Silver lab pups. A lot of them have blue eyes. did a search on weim pups, yes blue eyes. Did a search on lab pups. No blue eyes. 

Im not an expert on genetics, but it would seem that weims have a gene that gives pups blue eyes and grey coats. Could the Silver labs pups have the same gene for eye color as the weim? would this help settle things. 

Or am i crazy???????


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

goldensrule said:


> theres a local litter of labs being advertised and the stud is a silver. Been a bit of discussion. Pups are all chocloate. 1500 bucks no health certs done on parents.
> 
> So i did a search on Silver lab pups. A lot of them have blue eyes. did a search on weim pups, yes blue eyes. Did a search on lab pups. No blue eyes.
> 
> Im not an expert on genetics, but it would seem that weims have a gene that gives pups blue eyes and grey coats. Could the Silver labs pups have the same gene for eye color as the weim? would this help settle things.


In both cases, you referred to eye color in pups. How old were these pups? All pups, regardless of breed, are born with blue eyes. They change color. More importantly, eye color is controlled by a different set of genes. It's entirely possible that a breeding with a silver as a stud could produce an all chocolate litter. The genes on the D Locus of the silver would both be recessive, i.e. "dd". If the bitch was a true chocolate, i.e. homozygous on the D Locus for the dominate gene, "DD", then all pups would be heterozygous on the D Locus, i.e. "Dd", so phenotypically, they'd display the chocolate coloration. Those puppies, however, could produce dilutes depending upon the genotype of the dog to which they're bred. If bred to a dilute, "dd", or a dog that's genotypically heterozygous, i.e. "Dd", which would phenotypically be black, chocolate or yellow, some of the puppies would be dilute. That's what's so insidious about this problem. Unless ALL Labs are D Locus tested to ensure that both sire and dam are homozygous, "DD", on the D Locus, it's possible for the unsuspecting breeder to introduce the recessive gene into the breeding and you wouldn't know it if the puppies are phenotypically black, chocolate or yellow.


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Brian, you forgot to mention that the dam to these pups is a yellow dudley too. Very discriminating breeders- NOT. I did post the above AKC puppy paper notice above on the other website. The pups may lighten up in color as they grow. There has been mentioned in previous threads that Mayo Kellogg bred Weims too.
Caveat em-tor

Jeff


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## Jerry Running (Feb 16, 2009)

Saw this advertisement in paper Minature Labradoodles fore sale who comes up with this stuff certainly isn’t done to produce healthy talented puppy’s. Also saw the worst looking long eared almost hairless silver dog the other day when I asked the owner what it was he snubbed out his cigarette and proudly said a SILVER LAB ! I walked away thinking dumb a__.


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## goldensrule (Feb 20, 2010)

Jeff, 
Yes i saw what you posted. didnt seem to get through????

Don. 
I just dont remember any of my golden pups having blue eyes??? The weim litter yes.

If you do a search on images of Silver lab pups, weim pups, and lab pups and look at the photos, it seems to me to be a distinct difference in eye color between silver labs and weims which mostly appear blue, and labs, which mostly dont appear blue. 

Anyway I understand that eye color is controlled by different genes. I guess thats my question. From the images on the internet, if pups are all born with blue eyes, then silver labs and weims carry the color longer than labs. If that is the case, then there must be a gene that causes that. Is it the same gene in weims that it is in silver labs? If it is the same gene in silver labs and weims but different than labs, then thats one more point that silver labs are not labs. Not that we need more, but there are some that need more.

Another observation from me is that when I see a silver lab, I see weim eyes, not lab eyes. Hope we all have a merry christmas!!!!


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

goldensrule said:


> Jeff,
> Yes i saw what you posted. didnt seem to get through????
> 
> Don.
> ...


Hope you're having a Merry Christmas, too. I didn't mean to suggest that blue eyes in puppies last a long time, but they are all born with blue eyes. https://familypet.com/are-all-puppies-born-with-blue-eyes/


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

jeff evans said:


> I’ll put myself in the line of fire, so here goes. There’s no such thing as a “pointing lab’ or a “silver lab.” Labrador’s are a retrieving breed which contains black, yellow, and chocolate. Pretty simple, this topic reminds me of liberal politics, or better yet “incremental progressivism.” Buy your pups from known field trial pedigrees and this will never be an issue for you. 😏


There is some, albeit sparse, genetic information on pointing Labs and Weims: A video at https://vimeo.com/42401072 and this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4579392/ (Not an easy read) which identified a couple of genes possible associated with pointing behavior in Weims and other pointing breed dogs. In the video the discussion of pointing in Labs starts at about 16:00. The finding interesting for the present thread is the apparent fact (from the video) that the genes possibly associated with pointing in Labs. are on Chromosome 4 while (from the article) those in the Weim are on Chromosome 22. This is a strong suggestion that point in Labs. did not originate from some suspected Lab. - Weim. cross. Note in the article the GSP seemed to be excluded from the group of breeds with Chromosome 22 pointing connection - so this paper doesn't present information arguing against a Lab. - GSP cross in the PL woodpile ) Jere


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## labsforme (Oct 31, 2003)

Just as an FYI having had been around training and breeding GSP and in NAVHDA for some time in the past Weimereiners are not considered a strong point type pointing breed. More of an all around dog. I don't believe "point" in labs came from a specific breed in the background. Most dogs will hesitate before pouncing, many mistake that for a point, ie flash point. You can enhance that to a solid stop by training. It is not however a true point as such with English Pointers, Setters, GSP, Brittanies etc. I don't think the Silver gene is associated with that but someone, maybe Kellogg, put the gene in the woodpile after the Labrador Retriever was a true, recognized breed.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

All of the retrievers I've had started to "point" after some pheasant hunting experience. I call it a retriever point because it's different than a true point, which is a modified stalk. I train my dogs to stop and sit on the flush and or shot. With experience they anticipate the flush when on a bird so they stop. Not a true point but it works the same, I get a chance to prepare for a shot and the dog is prepared to mark the fall.
I have never and will never buy a dog marketed as a "Pointing Lab". 
Silver Labs? no such thing, they are Labereiners and I don't pay for mutts.


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## Jere (Dec 22, 2007)

labsforme said:


> J ... I don't believe "point" in labs came from a specific breed in the background. Most dogs will hesitate before pouncing, many mistake that for a point, ie flash point. ...


There seems to be consensus among early writers (1800s) that setters were used in Newfoundland in the development of the St. John's dog - the immediate precursor of the Lab. A "black pointer" has also been mentioned. At least one historian suggested pointers could have been involved even later in England. In the video I cited earlier Dr. Neff suggests the *primary* genes responsible for point in Labs would have been eliminated as the retriever characteristics were preferentially selected for. Personally, for several reasons, I believe modern day pointing Labs in America have been kept clean of outcrosses to pointing breed dogs - at least in the APLA associated kennels.

Jere


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## Mossy Dell (Sep 22, 2016)

This morning beside the James River in Richmond, I saw what I thought was a big male Weimaraner. I really could see just his head at first and I said to the owner, "Nice Weimaraner."

"He's a silver Lab," he said. "One year old."

Well, he wasn't docked, and was intact, and he jumped around like an excited Lab. His body was a pale brown and his head was silvery. I wonder if the two-tone look is common? As the genes re-sort in different ways?


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Hate to say it but they do exist and are gaining in popularity yearly.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

SLAB said:


> It's too late, they are now "Everywhere" every state all over the place. The Public has accepted them, now your remarks just simply seem 'racist'.



Now I see. You are mentally challenged or just trying to start crap.


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

SLAB said:


> Here is a good article that was recently written, that demonstrates the history and demonstrates the public acceptance. https://www.thelabradorsite.com/charcoal-lab/


Same public that elected Bronco Bama.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

The one on the left looks like a mastador. Couldn't get a more ugly mixed breed than a silver retriever.....


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

SLAB said:


> View attachment 78966
> Hate to say it but they do exist and are gaining in popularity yearly.



The Tide-pod challenge also (sadly) existed, and gained in popularity.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

SLAB said:


> View attachment 78966
> Hate to say it but they do exist and are gaining in popularity yearly.


SLAB, What is it that you hate to say? 

Thanks, Chris


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Here is a story about silver labs for you SLAB

https://thelabradorclub.com/news/th...ous-silver-lab-breeder-by-mary-frances-clark/


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## Gunners Up (Jul 29, 2004)

Until the AKC takes a stand in publically not recognizing and not allowing silvers to be registered as "Chocolates" and the Hunt Test and Field Trial Community make a united stand in not allowing "Silvers" to compete in any venue then we are just pissing in the wind. In my opinion this is one of the most pressing issues to our breed and it is shameful that the AKC hasn't taken a stand on this already.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Gunners Up said:


> Until the AKC takes a stand in publically not recognizing and not allowing silvers to be registered as "Chocolates" and the Hunt Test and Field Trial Community make a united stand in not allowing "Silvers" to compete in any venue then we are just pissing in the wind. In my opinion this is one of the most pressing issues to our breed and it is shameful that the AKC hasn't taken a stand on this already.


100% Agree
Truth be known the AKC could care less about the breed and all about the money


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

tigerfan said:


> 100% Agree
> Truth be known the AKC could care less about the breed and all about the money


Really fascinates me how there can be so much vitrol over a color though for real. It's just silly how ya'll lose your Sh*t because of a color.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Here is one for you  http://www.truthaboutsilverlabs.com/2019/01/09/two-historys-one-conclusion-silver-labs/


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Gunners Up said:


> Until the AKC takes a stand in publically not recognizing and not allowing silvers to be registered as "Chocolates" and the Hunt Test and Field Trial Community make a united stand in not allowing "Silvers" to compete in any venue then we are just pissing in the wind. In my opinion this is one of the most pressing issues to our breed and it is shameful that the AKC hasn't taken a stand on this already.


Exactly..

To be honest my argument against the dilute dogs has nothing to do with purity. 

Why would I recommend or buy a pup from a pedigree that has no accomplishments? 

There are just a few that have done anything in HTs and zero have even attempted FTs. 

The only reason they are bred is for money and color. They are bred with little regard for health, ability, temperament and obviously no regard for conformation. 

UKC is at least making a stand but I don't see the AKC making a cut and dry stand. They'll continue to ride the fence and cash in.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

SLAB said:


> Here is one for you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Terrible article. Some uneducated might fall for the lies but most here aren't that dumb.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

SLAB said:


> Really fascinates me how there can be so much vitrol over a color though for real. It's just silly how ya'll lose your Sh*t because of a color.
> 
> View attachment 78970


Personally I think the American Silver Retriever Society or whatever the hell group you all belong to, should get with the akc and start working on having your own 'special' spot in the purebred dog world... and leave the real labradors out of it.


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## DMT Wild (Jan 10, 2015)

This is copied from the front page of the LRC website. To me it pretty much says it all.
*PUPPY BUYERS BEWARE!*

THE THREE COAT COLORS FOR TRUE LABRADOR RETRIEVERS ARE BLACK, YELLOW, AND CHOCOLATE ONLY! THE LABRADOR RETRIEVER BREED STANDARD ONLY ALLOWS BLACK, YELLOW AND CHOCOLATE AND ANY OTHER COAT COLOR IS A DISQUALIFYING FAULT.​_Frances O Smith, DVM, PhD Chair, Labrador Retriever Club, Inc. Genetics Committee_It is the opinion of the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc., the American Kennel Club Parent Club for the breed, that a “silver” Labrador is not a purebred Labrador retriever. The pet owning public is being duped into believing that animals with this dilute coat color are desirable, purebred and rare and, therefore, warrant special notoriety or a premium purchase price.
Over the past few years a limited number of breeders have advertised and sold dogs they represent to be purebred Labrador Retrievers with a dilute or gray coat color—hence the term “silver labs.” The AKC has accepted some of these “silver labs” for registration. Apparently, the rationale for this decision is that the silver coat color is a shade of chocolate. Interestingly, the original breeders of “silver” Labradors were also involved in the Weimaraner breed. Although we cannot conclusively prove that the silver Labrador is a product of crossbreeding the Weimaraner to a Labrador, there is good evidence in scientific literature indicating that the Labrador has never been identified as carrying the dilute gene “dd.” The Weimaraner is the only known breed in which the universality of “dd” is a characteristic


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

SLAB said:


> Really fascinates me how there can be so much vitrol over a color though for real. It's just silly how ya'll lose your Sh*t because of a color.
> 
> View attachment 78970


This is a classic straw man argument. No one is losing anything over a color. We are collectively outraged over the fraudulent introduction of Weimeraners into the Labrador gene pool in order to cash in on unsuspecting buyers who don't know better. This also has the effect of introducing a recessive trait with known health issues that can remain hidden until two carriers are bred. You promote this abomination and suggest it is only a color proving that you are both ignorant and unscrupulous.

My name is Terry Moseley you can find me at the Atlanta Retriever Club field trial shooting the flier in the open most of the time. Who are you?


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

Do not know where duluted dogs came from. It was not from labs. Chocolates were born from the early times of setting a standard as were the yellows. These dogs were culled from the litters. Never heard of a diluted dog being born back then. Because there is no such thing. Do not buy or breed for dilutes.


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## pheona (Jan 22, 2009)

A lot of dog breeds point. They do this before attacking the prey they are after. Often it might be a litter mate in play.


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## Twin Willows Labs (Feb 4, 2014)

Don't feed the trolls.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

pheona said:


> A lot of dog breeds point. They do this before attacking the prey they are after. Often it might be a litter mate in play.


We are discussing the labrador retriever breed
Labrador Retriever is not a pointing breed and silver is not a color for the Labrador Retriever breed.


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## Mike W. (Apr 22, 2008)

this was 2 minutes of my life that I will never get back.


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

With all this discussion about "silver labs" and the strong position taken by many but not all. It may be worth discussing what position would you take as a person who is on the committee or judge giving the confirmation, hunt test or field trial. What action would you take should a competitor come to line to be judged by you in (a) a CKC or AKC confirmation event, (b) AKC licensed hunt test, (c) a UKC sanctioned Hunting Retriever competition or a (d) CKC or AKC field trial.

The individuals accepting entries do not have an opportunity to view the dog or verify it registration for its legitimacy prior to the dog arriving at the show ring or hunt test or field trial grounds.


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## Windjammer (May 29, 2014)

Ironwood said:


> With all this discussion about "silver labs" and the strong position taken by many but not all. It may be worth discussing what position would you take as a person who is on the committee or judge giving the confirmation, hunt test or field trial. What action would you take should a competitor come to line to be judged by you in (a) a CKC or AKC confirmation event, (b) AKC licensed hunt test, (c) a UKC sanctioned Hunting Retriever competition or a (d) CKC or AKC field trial. The individuals accepting entries do not have an opportunity to view the dog or verify it registration for its legitimacy prior to the dog arriving at the show ring or hunt test or field trial grounds.


Daniel, the UKC advised all judges and comittee members to report any silvers (or suspected mixed breeds) to the UKC, and not to handle the issue at the event. The UKC would investigate from there.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Ironwood said:


> With all this discussion about "silver labs" and the strong position taken by many but not all. It may be worth discussing what position would you take as a person who is on the committee or judge giving the confirmation, hunt test or field trial. What action would you take should a competitor come to line to be judged by you in (a) a CKC or AKC confirmation event, (b) AKC licensed hunt test, (c) a UKC sanctioned Hunting Retriever competition or a (d) CKC or AKC field trial.
> 
> The individuals accepting entries do not have an opportunity to view the dog or verify it registration for its legitimacy prior to the dog arriving at the show ring or hunt test or field trial grounds.


As to judges; Judge the dog in front of you
As to committee, if you have reason to believe the dog is not an eligible dog. The meet and discuss your options and proceed and follow the rules as to disqualification based on your findings


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## mwk56 (May 12, 2009)

AKC conformation judges are required to excuse dogs that do not meet the standard, which includes mis-marks and incorrect colors. It has happened in the past where a silver was dismissed from the ring.

More difficult on the performance side since AKC allows non-purebred animals to compete in many venues.

Meredith


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

tigerfan said:


> As to judges; Judge the dog in front of you
> As to committee, if you have reason to believe the dog is not an eligible dog. The meet and discuss your options and proceed and follow the rules as to disqualification based on your findings


Tigerfan, I agree with your words above fully.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Gunners Up said:


> Until the AKC takes a stand in publically not recognizing and not allowing silvers to be registered as "Chocolates" and the Hunt Test and Field Trial Community make a united stand in not allowing "Silvers" to compete in any venue then we are just pissing in the wind. In my opinion this is one of the most pressing issues to our breed and it is shameful that the AKC hasn't taken a stand on this already.


Actually, AKC HAS publicly taken a stand and admitted that silvers are not purebred Labs. Notwithstanding, AKC continues to register them as Labs. I've posted this twice before in this thread; the last time last December. Read carefully the June 13, 2017 Joint Statement issued by LRC and AKC, especially, the second paragraph. I know of only one way to interpret the second sentence of the second paragraph. The heterozygous dd allele is NOT naturally found in the Lab, but is found universally in the Weimaraner. Therefore, it follows that dilutes, including all dilutes, silver, champagne and charcoals, are NOT purebred Labs. Sadly, that also means that those dogs who are phenotypically black, yellow and chocolates, but are genotypically heterozygous on the D Locus, i.e. Dd, are also not purebred Labs. It's much more than what someone above suggested about getting all worked up about color; it's about purebred vs. mixed breed. In addition, in the fallacious article that was posted as a link, AKC has NEVER to my knowledge issued guidance that charcoal and champagnes should be registered as their "base" color. That's what the dilute proponents claim, but I've never been able to find that guidance. Therefore, registering those dilutes as Labs is a fraud; a fraud of which AKC is, I'm sure, fully aware is happening and, like the entire dilute issue, is ignoring it. Based upon an email I got from LRC 4 days ago, it appears that the rift between LRC and AKC is getting wider. I am so sick of this. AKC is only a registry. LRC establishes the breed standard, just like every other parent breed club. AKC has no business nor right to continue registering dilutes as Labs against LRC's guidance and wishes.

Here's what I posted on this thread last December:

I started dilute testing mine after LRC recommended it on Nov. 1, 2016 and have encouraged my clients to do the same.

What continues to upset me is that AKC continues to register dilutes as Labrador retrievers despite having agreed with LRC, on June 13, 2017, that dilutes are not purebred Labs. Here is the June 13, 2017 Joint Statement:

"According to the breed standard, established by the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc., there are three accpetable colors of Labrador Retrievers. Those colors are Black (all black), Yellow (fox-red to light cream), and Chocolate (light to dark chocolate). Silver is not an acceptable color of Labrador Retriever and is a disqualifying fault. Based on an agreement in 1987 between the American Kennel Club and the LRC, it was agreed that there was no proof that these silver dogs were not purebred and the breeders of the silver dogs subsequently registered them as chocolates.

Using parentage testing, it cannot conclusively be proven that silver Labradors are not purebred dogs or are crossed with Weimaraners. The Labrador Retriever breed does not carry the dilute gene dd that appears universally in the Weimaraner and is responsible for silver color.

Responsible breeders are tasked with breeding for health and standard and not solely for aesthetic. While we respect the choice of pet owners to select the breed of their choice, the LRC, Inc. does not view silver Labradors as appropriate breeding stock and believes that they should not be bred. They may compete in AKC events but are disqualified from the conformation show ring." Here's the link to that page on the LRC website: https://thelabradorclub.com/news/akc...ver-labradors/

Read the second paragraph carefully. Regarding the first sentence, of course it can't conclusively be proven that silver Labradors are not purebred dogs or a crossed with Weimaraners using parentage testing. Parentage testing only determines sire and dam. Unless the dog being tested is the product of a first generation cross, parentage testing proves nothing other than who the sire and dam are. The second sentence is dispositive: AKC and LRC have agreed that the Labrador retriever does NOT carry the dilute gene. They also agree that the dilute gene appears universally in Weimaraners and is the gene responsible for the silver color. So, having agreed that Labs don't carry the dilute gene and that Weimaraners do, why does AKC persist in registering dilutes as Labs? My guess is that the reason is spelled M-O-N-E-Y. I'm sure, too, that they want to avoid the lawsuit that is sure to follow if they stop registering them.

Moreover, the 1987 agreement to register silvers as Labs, referred to in the first paragraph, only addressed silvers, not other dilutes (charcoals and champagnes). AKC has NEVER agreed to register other dilutes, despite what the dilute breeders claim. Why is AKC doing so? They prefer to ignore the problem (and the fraud of claiming in the registration form that a charcoal is a black and a champagne is a yellow).

What's the fix? Require dilute testing of ALL Labrador retriever puppies and submission of the test results at the time of registration. Simple solution in practice. But, I'm a realist. I'm 70 years old. My ashes will be mixed with all my buddies' ashes before AKC changes anything.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

Tobias said:


> Personally I think the American Silver Retriever Society or whatever the hell group you all belong to, should get with the akc and start working on having your own 'special' spot in the purebred dog world... and leave the real labradors out of it.


The AKC would love to have them start a new breed! That would help draw them into more and more AKC events, starting with conformation. And maybe the breeders would begin to breed better conformation and develop performance dogs too.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/AmericanRetriever/posts/


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Tobias said:


> Personally I think the American Silver Retriever Society or whatever the hell group you all belong to, should get with the akc and start working on having your own 'special' spot in the purebred dog world... and leave the real labradors out of it.


I agree, but that doesn't end the issue. It's simple enough to establish a new "breed" for dilutes (not just silvers), but there are dogs out there that a colored like purebred Labs, but genotypically are heterozygous for the dilute gene, i.e. Dd on the D Locus. So, since D Locus testing isn't required to insure that a dog is homozygous dominant on the D Locus (DD) and, therefore, a purebred Lab, someone who hasn't D Locus tested can breed two heterozygous D Locus Labs, black, chocolate or yellow, assuming they're purebred and end up with dilutes in the litter. The only way to fix this problem and eliminate the dilute gene from the gene pool is to require that all Labs be D Locus tested (or cleared by parentage) to establish that they are DD on the D Locus before registration is permitted.


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

AKC has repeatedly said no to testing for registration. The ONLY way to avoid the (very valid) scenario you describe, is to demand D locus testing before agree to allow your stud to be used on a dam you do not know.


Don Smith said:


> I agree, but that doesn't end the issue. It's simple enough to establish a new "breed" for dilutes (not just silvers), but there are dogs out there that a colored like purebred Labs, but genotypically are heterozygous for the dilute gene, i.e. Dd on the D Locus. So, since D Locus testing isn't required to insure that a dog is homozygous dominant on the D Locus (DD) and, therefore, a purebred Lab, someone who hasn't D Locus tested can breed two heterozygous D Locus Labs, black, chocolate or yellow, assuming they're purebred and end up with dilutes in the litter. The only way to fix this problem and eliminate the dilute gene from the gene pool is to require that all Labs be D Locus tested (or cleared by parentage) to establish that they are DD on the D Locus before registration is permitted.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

lucas said:


> AKC has repeatedly said no to testing for registration. The ONLY way to avoid the (very valid) scenario you describe, is to demand D locus testing before agree to allow your stud to be used on a dam you do not know.


I agree with that. Unfortunately, it seems to me that not that many have started D Locus testing since LRC recommended it on Nov. 1, 2016. Even though AKC has said no to testing, I remain hopeful. After all, before June 13, 2017, I never would have thought that AKC would enter into that Joint Statement with LRC - even though AKC ignores the plain language of that statement.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Dilute Labradors have been bred into standard lines since the 1980's now there thousands upon thousands of dilute labradors in the USA and starting to pop up around the world. All of that to say that because they have been bred for so many generations into the standard lab lines the origin is mute a this point. Argument dead. They are labs now and forever. There are crappy silver breeders and crappy byc breeders and good ones on both sides of the fence, what is amusing is the same kinds of things can be seen historically being said about yellows at one point in time, and then later chocolates, and now these dilutes. Time and generations of them being in the breed will have a future affect it's just are you going to fight it tooth and nail and call names, and make fun of people or are you going to live and let live, and mentor people into good breeding, performing labrador functions or are you going to get mad because people are doing things the way you like? Seems childish...


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

SLAB said:


> Dilute Labradors have been bred into standard lines since the 1980's now there thousands upon thousands of dilute labradors in the USA and starting to pop up around the world. All of that to say that because they have been bred for so many generations into the standard lab lines the origin is mute a this point. Argument dead. They are labs now and forever. There are crappy silver breeders and crappy byc breeders and good ones on both sides of the fence, what is amusing is the same kinds of things can be seen historically being said about yellows at one point in time, and then later chocolates, and now these dilutes. Time and generations of them being in the breed will have a future affect it's just are you going to fight it tooth and nail and call names, and make fun of people or are you going to live and let live, and mentor people into good breeding, performing labrador functions or are you going to get mad because people are doing things the way you like? Seems childish...


Labradoodles have been around a long time now, lets just pretend they are labs too.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

not quite the same they are intentionally bred and cross back and forth with two breeds, labs either had dogs bred in from newphies to chessys or some idiot bred in some weims and they have been bred intolabs since that time. Quite a difference. Genetics 101 anyone?


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

I'm not disputing that Zekesman it's just now it's going on 40 plus years after it has shown up.... they are here, registered in AKC and UCK registries. "The End"


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

SLAB - that is a fine looking mastiff in your profile pic. I wonder what mastiffs have to do with retrievers?


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

You just keep coming back for more beat downs...

You think you'd want to bury this thread due to the embarrassment.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Bryan Parks said:


> You just keep coming back for more beat downs...
> 
> You think you'd want to bury this thread due to the embarrassment.


 Christmas Time and puppies is a big time to push the subject from the same bunch. Sales must be down. Trolls.


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## saltgrass (Sep 22, 2008)

Still cant under stand why anyone would want to get one . With the possible health issues they could have to deal with, i know a few that have gotten sucked in and now trying to stop others. It is sad there is a group on FB Louisiana Labs For Adoption has a lot of people pushing the silvers.. Huhhhhh


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

You guys and your propaganda, you would think bigotry and false information about dogs based on a color would have died with the old wives tails that yellow labs are high strung and chocolate labs are stupid etc.... but no the ignorance continues on.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

If they look like an English lab you call them a mastiff, if they look like American labs you call them a weim..... name calling is for bullies. Relax


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

SLAB said:


> not quite the same they are intentionally bred and cross back and forth with two breeds, labs either had dogs bred in from newphies to chessys or some idiot bred in some weims and they have been bred intolabs since that time. Quite a difference. Genetics 101 anyone?


Very good, it's not the same at all. Labradoodles are not called or registered as Labs, nor do people deny that they are crossbred.
If you want to market a new breed of Silver retrievers go right ahead. Why insist on calling them labs? That's rhetorical, I understand the reason is money.


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Why insist on calling them labs? Because they are labs. 100's of genetic breed test, have been done on many a silver, all of them come back labrador retriever. Just because you don't like how the orign of the color came into the breed doesn't mean it's not a part of it. It is now and has been for nearly the past 50 years!


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## SLAB (Sep 28, 2009)

Don Smith said:


> Moreover, the 1987 agreement to register silvers as Labs, referred to in the first paragraph, only addressed silvers, not other dilutes (charcoals and champagnes). AKC has NEVER agreed to register other dilutes, despite what the dilute breeders claim. Why is AKC doing so? They prefer to ignore the problem (and the fraud of claiming in the registration form that a charcoal is a black and champagne is yellow).


Charcoal and Champagne are simply understood via AKC to be the base coat color of yellow and black. If you call AKC the registry and ask a customer service agent how to register your ACK Charcoal puppy they will straight up tell you to register it as black. This has been documented over and over again. And because the LRC and the AKC are in a stalemate of how to handle the situation, there won't be any resolution in our lifetime, but silvers and dilutes will continue to be registered and eventually they will be so commonplace with modern America that all this hub bub will be historical.


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## Rozet (Jul 4, 2012)

Slab bug off.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

SLAB = SILVER "LABS" ARE BOGUS.

Mike ☘🇮🇪🇺🇸


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

It stands to reason that Golden Labs would be far better than Silver Labs and Jake would be happy to make some. _Bitches must be proven dilute free._


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

SLAB said:


> Why insist on calling them labs? Because they are labs. 100's of genetic breed test, have been done on many a silver, all of them come back labrador retriever. Just because you don't like how the orign of the color came into the breed doesn't mean it's not a part of it. It is now and has been for nearly the past 50 years!


You do realize any genetic DNA test is only accurate up to the time they created the DNA profile. 

There is no DNA test that is 100% accurate. 

The fact that the dilute gene was introduced in the 50s is why they can show to be 100% labs. 

The DNA tests available are absolutely not accurate.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

SLAB - Your previous photo looked a lot like the photos I see of mastadors.....perhaps you were bamboozled by an unscrupulous breeder (like the ones who claim to people that their wrongly colored labs are purebreds), It sure looks to me like you purchased a mastador pup? https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/413064597072214899/


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

SLAB said:


> Why insist on calling them labs? Because they are labs. 100's of genetic breed test, have been done on many a silver, all of them come back labrador retriever. Just because you don't like how the orign of the color came into the breed doesn't mean it's not a part of it. It is now and has been for nearly the past 50 years!


With all due respect, they are not purebred Labs. I posted the Joint Statement above. I've posted it below in the hopes that you'll read it this time. The scientific, verifiable evidence is that silver (and all dilute) "Labs" are not purebred. They are the result, somewhere in their background, of a cross between a Lab and a Weimaraner. A purebred Lab has two dominant genes on the D Locus, i.e. DD. A dilute "Lab" has two recessive genes on the D Locus, i.e. dd. The scary part is there are "Labs" out there that phenotypically are colored like Labs, i.e. black, yellow or chocolate, but, genotypically carry the dilute gene, i.e. Dd on the D Locus, because there was a dilute in the background. Even though the AKC hypocritically ignores the Joint Statement to which they agreed and persist in registering dilutes, the fact is the they agreed with LRC in 2017 that dilutes are not purebred. Following is the Joint Statement to which both LRC and AKC agreed on June 13, 2017. Read the second paragraph closely. The second sentence of that paragraph is dispositive. 

"According to the breed standard, established by the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc., there are three acceptable colors of Labrador Retrievers. Those colors are Black (all black), Yellow (fox-red to light cream), and Chocolate (light to dark chocolate). Silver is not an acceptable color of Labrador Retriever and is a disqualifying fault. Based on an agreement in 1987 between the American Kennel Club and the LRC, it was agreed that there was no proof that these silver dogs were not purebred and the breeders of the silver dogs subsequently registered them as chocolates.

Using parentage testing, it cannot conclusively be proven that silver Labradors are not purebred dogs or are crossed with Weimaraners. The Labrador Retriever breed does not carry the dilute gene dd that appears universally in the Weimaraner and is responsible for silver color.

Responsible breeders are tasked with breeding for health and standard and not solely for aesthetic. While we respect the choice of pet owners to select the breed of their choice, the LRC, Inc. does not view silver Labradors as appropriate breeding stock and believes that they should not be bred. They may compete in AKC events but are disqualified from the conformation show ring."

The reference to DNA parentage testing in the first sentence the second paragraph is true, but meaningless, since parentage testing only determines the DNA of the sire and dam. As I said, the second sentence is dispositive - if a purebred Lab doesn't carry the dilute gene and if that gene is universally found in Weimaraners and is responsible for their silver color, then ANY "Lab" that exhibits "dd" on the D Locus is not a purebred Lab. There is no other possible interpretation. This is why it's incumbent on all to follow LRC's November 1, 2016 recommendation to D Locus test their Lab(s) before breeding to insure that the D Locus for that dog exhibits DD, i.e. to insure that it's a purebred Lab.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

SLAB said:


> not quite the same they are intentionally bred and cross back and forth with two breeds, labs either had dogs bred in from newphies to chessys or some idiot bred in some weims and they have been bred intolabs since that time. Quite a difference. Genetics 101 anyone?


I have no idea what that means, but if it means what I think it means, you need to understand that the Labrador retriever stud book was closed decades before the first cross with a Weimaraner. Once a stud book is closed, no cross-breeding can be introduced. You say Genetics 101? I doubt you have a degree in genetics. And, before you ask, my undergrad degree was a major in biology with a concentration in genetics, so I understand genetics. My graduate degree was in law. I'm a retired federal attorney, so I know how to read the joint statement that AKC persists in ignoring even though they agreed to it.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

SLAB said:


> not quite the same they are intentionally bred and cross back and forth with two breeds, labs either had dogs bred in from newphies to chessys or some idiot bred in some weims and they have been bred into labs since that time. Quite a difference. Genetics 101 anyone?



dude... or dudette... whoever you are... here is some history... https://www.bil-jac.com/the-dog-blog/posts/breed-history-where-did-labrador-retrievers-come-from/ - I don't see anything there regarding weimeraners being a part of the 'foundation line' of labrador retrievers (before the stud book was closed)

Now - you claim some 'idiot bred a weim with a lab' - so are you saying you are an idiot for buying one? LOL ...


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Tobias said:


> ... (before the stud book was closed)


I realized that perhaps some (like dilute people) may not know what it means that a breed's stud book has been closed and when the Labrador retriever stud book was closed. Since I didn't remember the exact date, I did a quick search and found this: 

MINUTES OF QUARTERLY MEETING OF AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB.
September 19, 1916
“The Stud Book Committee reports as follows:
Application has been made for the recognition of the breed of Labrador Retrievers, by the American Kennel Club. A number of letter having been received from owners and breeders of this variety of Retrievers, we recommend that the Labrador Retriever be added to the list of recognized breeds.”
On Jan 1, 1916 the Stud Book was closed to all American bred dogs whose sires and dams were not registered. 
REGULAR MEETING OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB
May 21, 1918
AKC is in receipt of “The thanks for the Committee of the English Kennel Club to the [AKC] Board of Directors for the action of the Stud Book Committee in refusing to register imported dogs whelped after Sept 7, 1917, unless accompanied by the approval of said English Kennel Club. ”
REGULAR MEETING OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB May 6, 1924
“It was moved, seconded and carried that the following resolution be adopted; That on and after July 1, 1922 the Stud Book of the American Kennel Club will be open to any pure bred Sporting Dogs registered with the Field Dog Stud Book, or whose sire and dams were registered with the American Kennel Club Stud Book or the Field Dog Stud Book.”

This exception remained in place until October 19, 1926, when the Board of Directors voted to rescind the exception, stating: … “Field Dog Stud Book registrations will [no longer] be recognized by the American Kennel Club” and the Stud Book was closed. From that day forward no cross-mating between breeds would ever knowingly be admitted into the AKC Registry."

So, if, as SLAB seems to suggest, that the silver resulted from a cross with Weimaraner maybe 30 or so years ago, there is no way that it occurred before October 9, 1926, especially since (to the best of my knowledge) Weimaraners were not imported to this country until 1938.


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## Mossy Dell (Sep 22, 2016)

Gunners Up said:


> Until the AKC takes a stand in publically not recognizing and not allowing silvers to be registered as "Chocolates" and the Hunt Test and Field Trial Community make a united stand in not allowing "Silvers" to compete in any venue then we are just pissing in the wind. In my opinion this is one of the most pressing issues to our breed and it is shameful that the AKC hasn't taken a stand on this already.


Folks, the AKC has always 1.) promoted purebred dogs because AKC makes money off registration and 2.) is a show-based organization.

The first explains the AKC's willingness to register anything. And to pull in working breeds like Border collies and Jack Russell terriers whose clubs vehemently and desperately opposed AKC adoption. But the AKC is in financial decline if not in serious trouble.

The second explains the AKC's indifference to pedigrees. It is such an irony that, in any animal realm, show folk are the very first to foam at the mouth about those who crossbreed to win ribbons and the very first to do it. Not all of course, but when appearance is your standard, not ability, appearance fads will drive selection. I learned this as a shepherd, where the Dorset has split into two types, tall Columbia-infused show animals and modest-looking working Dorsets. No actual shepherd wants the show freaks.

The "silver Lab" is a total win-win for the AKC. The AKC is a corrupt and decadent organization that does not deserve support from those who care about performance.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

SLAB said:


> I'm not disputing that Zekesman it's just now it's going on 40 plus years after it has shown up.... they are here, registered in AKC and UCK registries. "The End"


For the record, the UKC stance on the dilutes is to disqualify them from registration and they WILL cancel the papers on dilutes.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

SLAB said:


> *If they look like an English lab you call them a mastiff*, if they look like American labs you call them a weim..... name calling is for bullies. Relax





Man o man, you are so far out in left field it's ridiculous. You don't even know what an English lab is. If anyone should be insulted it should be the English guys. Also sorry to group all you guys on that island as English, no so. Anyone sees a show bred dog and they call it English or British. Bugs me more than them and is an insult to the fine British bred labs across the pond.
I know it's a waste of breath to argue with you so I wont go on and on about why you are wrong. Do a video and show us what that fine silver specimen in your avatar can do. You speak of us and our propaganda. Well that is all the silver lab is. It is nothing but marketing and sales. I even hate the sound of those two words because of stuff like this.


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## remedy17 (Nov 30, 2019)

I'm adding Silver labs to my do not talk about list, (politics & Religion) unless I'm in the mood to "stir the pot". I have a friend with a silver lab and I'll be saving "looks like a Wiemaraner" till the appropriate time for a friendly (mostly) dig.


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## bananabeak93 (Oct 23, 2019)

Huge props to the UKC for requiring detailed pictures of your dog before they will allow it to be registered.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

sorry just couldnt help myself!


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

If I were Santa...


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Mr. Littlejohn has my sentiments exactly, thank you and Merry Christmas little girl!


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

I resisted, but after watching a respected friend try to coax a so-called "silver lab" to show some interest in, much less pickup a duck, I give in. These crossbreeds are not Labradors. Perhaps we can all agree to refrain from implying that they are. If you must use the term "silver lab", put it in quotes or modify it with "so-called." Better to just be honest and call them cross-breeds. It's what they are. 
Merry Christmas all.


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## Miller2015 (Jun 6, 2019)

spaightlabs said:


> https://notosilverlabs.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/all-dilutes-come-from-two-kelloggs-dogs/


 The link is no good


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## Miller2015 (Jun 6, 2019)

I haven't seen a silver without some type of health problem.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Miller2015 said:


> I haven't seen a silver without some type of health problem.


You referring to a cross-breed sometimes referred to as a so-called "silver lab?"


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## NurseTank (Nov 11, 2010)

I apologize if my ignorance is showing. I’m learning. I looked in the GOT on the homepage and couldn’t find the definition of “dilute” genes. I read this thread from the start and early on folks are talking about breeding “dilutes”. What does that mean, and how do I make sure I’m not getting a substandard dog?


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

NurseTank said:


> I apologize if my ignorance is showing. I’m learning. I looked in the GOT on the homepage and couldn’t find the definition of “dilute” genes. I read this thread from the start and early on folks are talking about breeding “dilutes”. What does that mean, and how do I make sure I’m not getting a substandard dog?



The dilute dogs are not purebred Labradors, and are advertised as silver, charcoal and champagne. The only way to know if a dog is not dilute is to ask for proof (not just their word) that the parents have had the genetic testing done and aren't "dd" for the dilute gene. "dd" ...both lower case...means dilute. Or go with a well respected breeder that insists on only breeding purebred Labradors in black, yellow and chocolate and is anti-dilute.

Dilute breeders will lie and tell you they are registered with AKC under their "base color" of black, yellow or chocolate, which is not accurate and these are not "base colors".

All dilutes are substandard dogs. Period.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Steve Shaver posted


> Man o man, you are so far out in left field it's ridiculous. You don't even know what an English lab is. If anyone should be insulted it should be the English guys.


Not so much insulted as dismayed Steve, but thanks for taking up the cudgels. 

It was a life's work demonstrating to the RTF crowd that UK / British / English / Irish working Labs were not fat box head plodders with Corgi legs, but were remarkably similar to working Labs over yonder, then SLAB comes along and all is dust and ashes.  

Within the islands I've never seen a silver Lab and have no wish to do so, and if I ever did it would receive a hearty kick in a spot unlikely to promote breeding success. In the interest of fair disclosure I'm a bit of an Anglo / Hibernian / Romany mongrel meself, and I have worked several liver and white Labs as below on a training day....... 










And doing the Liver and White non slip Lab Retriever job at Drumlanrigg where the good Duke of Buccleugh co-founded the breed...










Puppies available ...

Eugene

(Tis the truth I'm telling' yer now, pure bred Lab he is. Kaching!!)


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

And by way of clarification for SLAB...... *that* is a British Labrador, albeit a Welsh one.










And so is this ..... 










An earlier poster pointed out that silvers are unknown in UK where the original Lab breed was established, and Weims came late to the scene. Given the state of DNA knowledge today, I think it unlikely we'll have the pleasure of their company. If some clown wants to cross a Wiem and a Lab, there's nothing to stop them, but they won't be able to call it a pure bred Lab. 

Eugene


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

THAT is what a labrador should look like!


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## NurseTank (Nov 11, 2010)

Thank you Sharon. I was leaning that direction but wanted to confirm. I appreciate the explanation.


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

NurseTank said:


> I apologize if my ignorance is showing. I’m learning. I looked in the GOT on the homepage and couldn’t find the definition of “dilute” genes. I read this thread from the start and early on folks are talking about breeding “dilutes”. What does that mean, and how do I make sure I’m not getting a substandard dog?


A dilute is one that has two recessive genes on the D Locus and, therefore, are silver (dilute of chocolate), champagne (dilute of yellow) or charcoal (dilute of black). The recessive genes cause the dog's color to be diluted. Labs are only black, yellow or chocolate. Dogs can have a simple and inexpensive genetic test for the D Locus. Tests are available from DDC Canine, Paw Print Genetics and others. If the dog is a purebred Lab, there will be two dominate genes (DD) on the D Locus. A dilute will have two recessive genes (dd) on the D Locus. A big concern is if dogs are heterozygous on the D Locus, i.e. Dd, it is phenotypically black, yellow or chocolate, but actually has the dilute gene. Since November 1, 2016, the Labrador Retriever Club has recommended that all Labs be D Locus tested before breeding. The Labrador retriever does not naturally have the dilute gene; the Weimaraner does. That statement comes from the June 13, 2017 Joint Statement between the Labrador Retriever Club and the AKC. Despite that agreement, AKC hypocritically persists in registering dilutes as purebred Labrador retrievers.
https://thelabradorclub.com/news/akc-lrc-joint-statement-on-alleged-silver-labradors/


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## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Colonel Blimp said:


> And by way of clarification for SLAB...... *that* is a British Labrador, albeit a Welsh one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting, Eugene and, of course, you are absolutely correct. My friend, Keith Mathews, shows what British/English/Irish Labs are capable of in his training DVD. Attached is the promotional video for it. I dare say many North American field Labs can also. It's sad that they call what's in the American show ring today British Labs. Those dogs aren't physically capable of what these dogs can do, like scale a 10' high stone wall. I don't call those things in the show ring "Labradors". I call them "Flabradors". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js2WnJMEfik The only issue is that you guys across the pond send your dogs with the wrong arm. LOL


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Colonel Blimp said:


> And by way of clarification for SLAB...... *that* is a British Labrador, albeit a Welsh one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Very nice looking dogs Col. The black one looks a lot like my Cosmo son


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