# The MOST overused word in dog training... NO



## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

I rarely use it. How bout you why or why not?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Not trying to be the authority but here's a viewpoint to start a discussion

You can use many sounds for a single behavior - sit, whistle blast, seetz etc. you can literally train it in 6 languages (I have)

You can't use one sound for many behaviors - stop jumping, don't pick that up, you went the wrong way, get out of the trash, stop peeing on Stella! 

The commonality to the word NO is that it's often delivered in a startling manner and in many cases followed by pressure so...

You get a stoppage of action because you startled and scared the dog (to some degree) - not because she knew what you meant.

I try to only use language the dog understands clearly. 

Jumping = sit
Trash can = here or leave it (or leave it- here)
Peeing on Stella = ARCHIE YOU LITTLE BASTAGE GET OVER HERE!

This is how I prefer to interact because I think it is most clear and least stressful to the dog.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I use it in just about every day. Why? Because my dog is doing something I don't want him to do. 

Example 1:
Today in training, lined dog up for a blind. Dog took very poor initial line. I said no-no, let's try that again.

Example 2:
Today in training, different dog comes back with long go bird and I'm trying to get the look in there for the short retired. Dog keeps looking back to the stand out gunner on the go bird. After numerous unsuccessful attempts to get dog to look at SRG, I put my hand down and said no, then reheeled dog.

Example 3:
After training today I'm in the recliner having a snack. Still a different dog tries to sneak a chip. I said no, go lay on the couch.

Probably used it a couple more times including a couple times when the pup tried to steel a bird off the bird rack as we were leaving the line. 

Don't really understand the fixation on saying or not saying the word no. It's just another word.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

"No" for when dog has decision to make, and makes the wrong one, such as dodging shrub instead of jumping over it or scalloping. Usually "no, here" and dog is re-cast until she gets it right.


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## JRinNE (Nov 11, 2014)

Please excuse my "ignorance" as I am new to this. When I say no he stops doing whatever he is doing, and I believe he understands it's wrong, he is then given the command that I wanted, sit, here, heel, etc. Wouldn't just repeating sit sit sit be like nagging?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

I use no alot just like about everyone else. Wrong line to the blind, no get off the couch etc. Seems to me they understand the meaning of NO!!! or am I reading into my dog knowing more than I think he is able to? or is it b/c NO is repeated so often by me. An easy word to use! Keep it simple I say!


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I use no a lot. Example: When Rowdy starts humping on Shadow I yell "NO".


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

As I said I rarely use it. I will use it occasionally on the line and I use it for a poor initial line, and a no no drill. That is about it. Everything else is telling them what I want, not what I don't want . "Off "the couch, "off" of me, " sit" your as down, "down" , Get your butt over "here" and stop chasing the bunny. To me telling them "no" is wasting time that you could be telling them what to do


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

I should use it more around people, friends, and family.... Haha if only it was that easy!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

When I tell one of my dogs no for trying to hump another dog, they don't hump the other dog. When I tell them no for trying to steel a chip off my plate, they don't steel the chip. I don't care what else they do in these situations, as long as it's not what they are trying to do at the moment. I don't care if they sit, don't care if they come here or go somewhere else. If I wanted them to sit or here, I'd use that instead of no. Certainly not a waste of time at my house. We have far bigger fish to fry than worrying about using or not using no.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

captainjack said:


> Probably used it a couple more times including a couple times when the pup tried to steel a bird off the bird rack as we were leaving the line.
> 
> Don't really understand the fixation on saying or not saying the word no. It's just another word.


In my case it's because pet dog people say NO NO NO with nothing else for the dog to do next...

In all of your examples you gave the dog another command immediately following so... NO to your dog means - listen up! 

One could argue whether that's good or bad, but I don't think it would have any value to do so. It works for you and your dogs, obviously.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

JRinNE said:


> Please excuse my "ignorance" as I am new to this. When I say no he stops doing whatever he is doing, and I believe he understands it's wrong, he is then given the command that I wanted, sit, here, heel, etc. Wouldn't just repeating sit sit sit be like nagging?


try skipping NO and just say sit, see what happens - if you care to experiment


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

i most often use it preceded by the word, "hell". my mom does not approve of this usage.


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## passthru (Feb 27, 2015)

I use it because it is useful a d it works.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Seems to me I recall Mike Lardy being an advocate of not overusing using No . Something along the lines of telling a dog what TO do, keeping as positive forward flow of learning.

Myself, I'm not a fan of adding extra steps. No reason to stop when one can move forward. 

It's like Sit, followed by Stay. Stay is redundant, and is mostly us telling ourselves we don't think sit will stick past a few seconds which speaks to inconsistency on our part.  Sit means plant your butt and don't move until you hear another command. 

Dog is jumping up: I don't say No, off, down, no jump, etc. I say Sit. 
Dog isn't looking out where I want, I move, re-heel the dog and line up again. 
Dog gets into garbage, I say Sit.
Dog veers off toward bird drying rack...I say heel! which is the infraction that occurred.

No says I'm upset/angry and startles the dog....Sit is a command to do something and also distracts the dog from whatever misbehavior is happening.

But that's just me.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Sharon Potter said:


> Seems to me I recall Mike Lardy being an advocate of not using No. Something along the lines of telling a dog what TO do, keeping as positive forward flow of learning.
> 
> Myself, I'm not a fan of adding extra steps. No reason to stop when one can move forward.
> 
> ...


Lardy will use "no" when a dog has made a mistake.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

The only time I use "no" is when I am lining a dog up. "NO" pivot "YES", Drop my hand, back. Every where else it is a wast of time. I want to condition them to what I want, not what I don't want. 

Keith

After a while, all I have to do is pivot and they know what I want.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

So, How do 'No-No drills' work then? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9nIIz33Qu8


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

On the one hand, folks will say you can use whatever words you want for anything you communicate to the dog, as long as you're consistent... I guess that's as long as the word isn't no. 

Ever watched someone trying to line a dog up for a mark or blind and heard...

Sit, sit, sit, hereheelhere, sit, yes, right there, heelhereheelheresit. Right there, back.

Good thing they told the dog what to do rather than what not to do. 

Way more important things to master than avoiding a word that only has meaning to dogs in the context in which the owner uses it. 

Some would even say it's perfectly fine to use the word no to get the dog to go on a blind or mark and ok to use the word back to get the dog to sit--- as long as you're consistent (no, I'm not one of those folks).


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

polmaise said:


> So, How do 'No-No drills' work then?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9nIIz33Qu8


Just say NO NO This drill works great. Like Glen say bigger things to worry about!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

polmaise said:


> So, How do 'No-No drills' work then?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9nIIz33Qu8





Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Just say NO NO This drill works great. Like Glen say bigger things to worry about!


It works better if you don't go the casting. Just no-no, recall, simplify, and try again.

Also, it's no-no when I do it, as opposed to NO-NO. Just want to condition the dog to bring recalled in a drill-type setting before recalling in the field for example, when taking a poor initial line.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I only use "NO" online with "No bird". Otherwise I don't use it, but at home, yes I want NO to mean something, and it does. I want them to know that it means stop what you are doing. I don't want to give a SIT. I want it to have impact and they get the message so don't use it all the time. Reserve it for the times you really mean it. Humping and general rowdiness is "knock it off". Unseen infractions is "Who did this?" and look for the guilty perp face. When all fails I have wiffle bats which if you wave them madly like a samurai warrior with a sword gets quick action and you don't have to use no and it serves as crowd control. They generally take cover in their crates and then you give them a cooky.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

captainjack said:


> On the one hand, folks will say you can use whatever words you want for anything you communicate to the dog, as long as you're consistent... I guess that's as long as the word isn't no.


If your dog (or your son/daughter) was taught to communicate in a foreign language - NO might not mean a thing to them or it could mean something completely different. 

You have created clear meaning to the word in your program Glen, and it works really well because of that. 

Many many people aren't as consistent nor as skilled as you and assume the dog understands English which, of course, we know they don't. 

That's when the word gets "over used". 

Otherwise it's a simple matter of preference. 

I teach pet dog folks to use the dogs name to get their attention. You use NO in certain situations and their name as a release command (I imagine).

It's all OK. No one said you were wrong (although the thread title implies it).


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

captainjack said:


> It works better if you don't go the casting. Just no-no, recall, simplify, and try again.
> 
> Also, it's no-no when I do it, as opposed to NO-NO. Just want to condition the dog to bring recalled in a drill-type setting before recalling in the field for example, when taking a poor initial line.


Saying SIT HERE works just as well (capitalized because they're commands not because you should yell). 

It's all a matter of preference.

The drill relies on negative punishment (denial/removal of reward) to teach the skill. 

Use whatever words you like. It doesn't matter if you execute it properly. 

You could do everything except stopping the dog without saying a word. The only reason you need a sound to stop the dog is because it isn't looking at you. I could recall, move up, re-heel and re-send, all with hand signals if I wanted to do it that way.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I do differentiate between overusing No as opposed to never using it at all.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> Saying SIT HERE works just as well (capitalized because they're commands not because you should yell).
> 
> It's all a matter of preference.
> 
> ...


"No" is a cue for the dog, it is an extra piece of information. Extend the lesson of the drill to a field setting. If I yell "no" my dog automatically returns to the scene of the crime for the recast, or if she has just gotten out of the water she jumps back in when I yell "no" etc. because she has learned that "no" means she made a wrong choice. I say "yell" because the dog is waay out by this time.

If I toot "sit" and then "here" with the whistle without the cue "no" as you suggest, my dog is likely to start hunting for the bird, as if she has over run the blind or mark.

In a field setting it is not always easy or desirable to simplify, such as in water work or when the dog is 200+ yards out and you are trying to get that slot or island. Dog needs to know how to take the correct cast from any distance.

Edit: Also if you do very many repetitions of the the "sit-here" sequence, without the "no" cue, dog may learn that "sit" is always followed by "here" and thinks that that "sit" means "here"; you risk ending up with a confused dog who doesn't sit so good anymore.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

NO is a word that has been instilled into my brain for a LONG LONG time.. 

Sister Marcella used it so much with me ,, I thought it had become my new name.

My Mom used it in conjunction with a wooden spoon!

Diane has continued the practice! I can just look at her and she says "No" ,,,, (WTF)

So,,with Flinch,, I try not to fall into the same circle... I am trying to break it,,, BUT,, If I say it,, She Understands that what ever action she is involved with, better stop!!... She's MUCH smarter than Me.. 

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

mitty said:


> Lardy will use "no" when a dog has made a mistake.



Sister Marcella, and my Mom.. Must have followed Lardy a Long Time ago...Wait! maybe it was Carr!


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Think I have a bad dog. I use no and NO a lot. Couldn't imagine life without it


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Now,,, My DAD on the other hand, was a man of little words. But, there was very subtle signals to influence you.

LIKE,

If he stopped what ever he was doing, sniffed,,then turned and looked you! Hells doors were about to be placed in front of you!!!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Now,,, dont get me wrong,, there were good times in my upbringing too.

Sometimes I just got locked in a closet! Kinda like the dog being put back in his crate!


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

polmaise said:


> So, How do 'No-No drills' work then?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9nIIz33Qu8


I do mostly the same things, but don't use no at all. I use boards and barrels, with jumps. I use to use OK good dog, but now I use Yes, when they do it right and the whistle to control. I will set up, two barrels, to make a small opening. Start close and work them through it to the back pile. Then I will start backing up to about 35 yards. After I have them running through the opening about half way at a good pace, I will add a plank across the opening. Start close again and have them jump the opening and go to the back pile. When I have one set of jumps I will add another. Like I said I only use NO, on the line.

When I say I am doing no, no drill, this is what I am doing. Maybe I should start calling them yes, yes drills.

Keith


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Actually "I" is prolly the most overused word. Particularly in Tejas.

Just an observation regards

Bubba


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Bubba said:


> Actually "I" is prolly the most overused word. Particularly in Tejas.
> 
> Just an observation regards
> 
> Bubba


I don't know what Tejas means, but knowing your posts, it's not good.

Keith


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Actually "I" is prolly the most overused word. Particularly in Tejas.
> 
> Just an observation regards
> 
> Bubba



I use it WAY to much!!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Some of you must have dogs with limited imaginations. There are not enough commands in the English language to stop my youngest from doing all the bad or dangerous things he thinks up! If it weren't for "NO" and it's clariflier "damnit", Chief would not have made it to age 4!


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## Laurie McCain (Apr 12, 2008)

I trained obedience with Connie Cleveland for several years. She taught a very clear use of "No." She was clear that you cannot just say no then leave the dog wallowing in it's mistake. Saying no means the dog is wrong and should stop what its doing, but must immediately be followed by a command that will tell the dog how to be correct.

I used it for years in obedience training and now in the field. It works well and is extremely clear to the dog.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> I do differentiate between overusing No as opposed to never using it at all.


I utter it out of habit on occasion but it is meaningless to the dog (no reinforcement)


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

mitty said:


> she has learned that "no" means she made a wrong choice.


I very respectfully submit that your dog does not have the intellect to make that assessment. It's what has consistently come after that sound that she associates. The resulting behavior was also consistently reinforced in a given context.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Laurie McCain said:


> I trained obedience with Connie Cleveland for several years. She taught a very clear use of "No." She was clear that you cannot just say no then leave the dog wallowing in it's mistake. Saying no means the dog is wrong and should stop what its doing, but must immediately be followed by a command that will tell the dog how to be correct.
> 
> I used it for years in obedience training and now in the field. It works well and is extremely clear to the dog.


safe to say Connie may have a clue  same strategy Glen sited earlier. Glen's current line up and accomplishments are listed. It works.


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## Marissa E. (May 13, 2009)

I often feel it's not even what I say, but how I say it, that makes the most difference to my dog.


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I use no a lot. Example: When Rowdy starts humping on Shadow I yell "NO".


Ha hahalol that's there is funny


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Laurie McCain said:


> I trained obedience with Connie Cleveland for several years. She taught a very clear use of "No." She was clear that you cannot just say no then leave the dog wallowing in it's mistake. Saying no means the dog is wrong and should stop what its doing, but must immediately be followed by a command that will tell the dog how to be correct.
> 
> I used it for years in obedience training and now in the field. It works well and is extremely clear to the dog.


I know a lot of good trainers that use it. just have not been convinced that it is constructive when conditioning. Like Rowdy is jumping on Shadow. Would it not be more constructive, to command "OFF" fallowed by a "Yes". That way you are condition the dog to do something.

Keith


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I very respectfully submit that your dog does not have the intellect to make that assessment.


First of all we haven't been breeding these dogs from FC's and NFC's for decades not to have gained an increase in intelligence over your average pet dog, so the groups really can't be compared. Dogs pick up on non-verbal cues, inflections, and movements, and the good pros don't have to say much on line. I don't like like to use the word No on the line, even when combined with a command, because of the communication it makes, especially to sensitive dogs. It is not a positive communication. I like the YES, "Good", "Right There" and I do talk to my dogs to relax them. Watch their ears when you insert NO with a command; however NO can mean stop what you are doing in certain situations. They get it. Actually, I prefer a sharp "eeh-eeh".


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## Jeri (Feb 24, 2015)

I had an obedience trainer years ago – hired him before I even had the pup home. He came to the house the day the pup did at 8 weeks old. The family was given strict instructions to never use the word “No” – he used to say “Most of the dogs in this country think their name is “No”. As many of you have suggested, “bad” behaviors were simply redirected to appropriate behaviors with much praise for the new behavior.

Eventually in training, he taught a leash/collar pop and associated the word “No” with this action. This was the harshest treatment he/we ever doled out. Once the dog associated “No” with a collar pop, the pop was phased out and the word “No” was used very sparingly, but it did work very well.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

ErinsEdge said:


> First of all we haven't been breeding these dogs from FC's and NFC's for decades not to have gain an increase in intelligence over your average pet dog, so the groups really can't be compared. Dogs pick up on non-verbal cues, inflections, and movements, and the good pros don't have to say much on line. I don't like like to use the word No on the line, even when combined with a command, because of the communication it makes, especially to sensitive dogs. It is not a positive communication. I like the YES, "Good", "Right There" and I do talk to my dogs to relax them. Watch their ears when you insert NO with a command; however NO can mean stop what you are doing in certain situations. They get it. Actually, I prefer a sharp "eeh-eeh".


I agree, but when I am conditioning them to pivot. I feel like I need some sort of communication to create a contrast between what I want and what I don't want. 

Keith


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Brenda Lokey is a NY State Golden Campaigner and long time retriever enthusiast.

I used to work with her when I was on the East Coast. 

She had a t-shirt that I always thought was hilarious.

It showed a young cartoon golden wagging her tail happily with a posture like it wanted to play.

The caption read: "Hi, my name is 'no-no-bad dog'"

Post 45 reminded me of that.

Chris


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

It must be hugely complex for the dog to understand not only language but dialect 
......Wonder what the 'Irish' dogs over there make of it all ?
Our 'No' is more like ..'auch naw' ;-)
http://scottishcomedy.net/what-the-english-would-say-vs-what-the-scots-would-say/


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Marissa E. said:


> I often feel it's not even what I say, but how I say it, that makes the most difference to my dog.


 That's right...nooooo and NO!!! have two completely different connotations , and likley NO!! is the only one with real meaning.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

TRUST me Glenn, I am NOT worried about the word no... how I use it or anyone else uses it....Just pondering.

I sent home a ahem... silver lab, who came in as a complete idiot. I had her for 10 days and worked on off, here and sit. As usually when the owner came and the initial greeting was happening the guy was "no, no,no , down sit....no, no" even though I had instructed them on how to tell the dog off with an open hand.(and I corrected with an ecollar) THIS is why I say it is the most over used word. Joe pet does not get know how to make no meaningful and it is like the Snoopy cartoon , "Blah, blah , blah" I try to break them of the habit by telling them to use the command instead of NO . 
Glenn , you are an experienced trainer, who I am sure the first few times your dog was humping another, launched out of your chair and snatched the dog up , while saying no, or smacked the table when he was stealing the cookie. Too many people use no, with no consequence, therefore making it an overused/misused command.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> I very respectfully submit that your dog does not have the intellect to make that assessment. It's what has consistently come after that sound that she associates. The resulting behavior was also consistently reinforced in a given context.


You pulled my quote from an example about teaching dogs to stay in the water. In Lardy-like training programs, dogs are taught to get in the water and to stay in the water through a diet of cheating singles. The standard correction for dogs that don't get in the water is to stop them with a toot on the whistle, then "no-nick-here" and resend. Eventually dogs can learn that they are supposed to choose water not land in new settings; if not, if they were intellectually incapable of making choices based on learning from experience, then dogs like mine would run the bank every time they saw a new pond. 

One way of teaching dogs to stay in the water is to stop them as soon as they start to cave and cast them away from land. Another is to stop them when they hit land, then correct with "no-here" (which may include a nick on the e-collar depending...), bring them back to the place where they caved and recast. Dogs eventually learn to stay in the water and many have the intellectual ability to generalize the lessons learned about staying in the water on one set of ponds to marks and blinds it sees at new ponds. If they didn't have this ability, then dogs like mine would beach early every time they retrieved marks on a new pond. 

The last few times that my dog has beached early on long water marks, I stopped her with sit whistle per usual. She sat. I said "no" per usual, but before I know it she is back in the pond continuing to the mark. I have not taught her this behavior sequence (to get back in the water and carry on after I yell "no"), it is her solution. I believe she is problem solving though I am sure there are other interpretations.


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

It's funny you give that example Renee because the other day I witnessed something interesting on a cheaty water mark. This particular dog took a good line on the way out and hit the water. On the return he caved and committed to the cheat. My planned response was to blow the whistle, "no" and cast with no pressure but when I blew the whistle and gave the no, the dog automatically took the over and hit the exact spot and reentered the water before I even had the chance to give the cast. It was clear that this particular dog knew what the "no" meant at least in that particular context.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

You really have a smart dog.


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## IdahoLabs (Dec 21, 2011)

The more advanced the dog is and the more experienced I've gotten at training, the less visible corrections I use. Doesn't mean they aren't there, only that most people won't notice that I just fixed something I didn't like. I should add that most of that is because I plan successes and failures. Most people who overuse "no" do so because the dog's bad behavior snuck up on them. 

I don't use the word NO very often because there's plenty of other ways to express a desire for a behavior, attitude, or action change. I primarily correct -and strongly- for a lack of effort or attention. I expect a lot in terms of performance, but if the dog is trying the performance will follow. 

That said... when I do pull out the word NO I stop everything and it's usually followed by "*what* are you doing???" Or some variation...


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

captainjack said:


> When I tell one of my dogs no for trying to hump another dog, they don't hump the other dog. When I tell them no for trying to steel a chip off my plate, they don't steel the chip. I don't care what else they do in these situations, as long as it's not what they are trying to do at the moment. I don't care if they sit, don't care if they come here or go somewhere else. If I wanted them to sit or here, I'd use that instead of no. Certainly not a waste of time at my house. We have far bigger fish to fry than worrying about using or not using no.


Bingo!!!!!


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Tony Marshall said:


> It's funny you give that example Renee because the other day I witnessed something interesting on a cheaty water mark. This particular dog took a good line on the way out and hit the water. On the return he caved and committed to the cheat. My planned response was to blow the whistle, "no" and cast with no pressure but when I blew the whistle and gave the no, the dog automatically took the over and hit the exact spot and reentered the water before I even had the chance to give the cast. It was clear that this particular dog knew what the "no" meant at least in that particular context.


You can also look at this in a different way. The dog was anticipating the indirect pressure, that they received in the past. Have had this happen. the whistle "stop" was most likely, what they understood. The no was just something on the end. I don't know how I feel about the refusal to stop on the whistle.

Keith


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

truthseeker said:


> You can also look at this in a different way. The dog was anticipating the indirect pressure, that they received in the past. Have had this happen. the whistle "stop" was most likely, what they understood. The no was just something on the end. I don't know how I feel about the refusal to stop on the whistle.
> 
> Keith


He did stop, and then took the over on the "no" .


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> I very respectfully submit that your dog does not have the intellect to make that assessment. It's what has consistently come after that sound that she associates. The resulting behavior was also consistently reinforced in a given context.


I think dogs are more intelligent than we give them credit for. Ever see this http://brianhare.net/dognition/ This man has done studies on dogs and their intelligence. He also is making money off some to test for their dog's intelligence! 
Having said that my dog has successfully learned ignore NO at times!!! even in your harshest tone especially when counter surfing!almost as if he was deaf!!!


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Tony Marshall said:


> He did stop, and then took the over on the "no" .


This still dose not change my perception.

Keith


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## James Seibel (Aug 20, 2008)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I think dogs are more intelligent than we give them credit for. Ever see this http://brianhare.net/dognition/ This man has done studies on dogs and their intelligence. He also is making money off some to test for their dog's intelligence!
> Having said that my dog has successfully learned ignore NO at times!!! even in your harshest tone especially when counter surfing!almost as if he was deaf!!!


I am going to tell you one little story. It was about 25 years ago I was hunting the Susquehanna river , which I hunted 5- 6 days a week for over 20 years. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_River We were hunting a little island near Espy , pa off old Berwick Highway. You can Google the river and find the island. I shot a duck for my dog named Baby, sometimes called Babe for short. The mallard was a cripple and the river was calm so my friend suggested I let her chase it down river and figure this all out on her own. She caught the duck about 300 or 400 yards down river. she swam to the shore and started running up along river. I walked across island to where the boat was. Babe stopped directly across from me , about 80 + yards. I guess she stopped there because I was calling her and there is very very strong current between us. I called to her and blew my whistle come here. She could safely swim to me and hit the island . But she looked at me , she looked up river , she looked at me as I am blowing whistle come here. She looked up river. Then she ran up river 50+ yards and jumped in river and swam across to me and landed at my feet. 

No one will ever convince me that Babe did not reason on her own and never trained to do this , that she must go further up river in order to land at my feet due to the current she knew was between us. I witnessed for 11 years many times what I believe are amazing self thought things this dog did. Not discounting other dogs I owned or other dogs owned by people on RTF by any means. But I believe this dog had what I would term productive reasoning. 

I can tell many stories of dogs as I am sure you can . I know collectively that if all of us put our stories together in a book that we would have a pretty thick book to read.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

The key point that even those who believe no is used too much can agree on is that the word "no" has no more and no less meaning that "sit", "here", "back", "off", "leave it" or any or be word. - until the dog is taught. 

If a dog owner comes in and says no-no-no, etc. and his/her dog pays no attention, I'd be willing to wager that if they'd have been saying off, leave it, sit, etc. There dog would have been doing the exact same thing. 

It's not the words that matter, it's the training.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

captainjack said:


> The key point that even those who believe no is used too much can agree on is that the word "no" has no more and no less meaning that "sit", "here", "back", "off", "leave it" or any or be word. - until the dog is taught.
> 
> If a dog owner comes in and says no-no-no, etc. and his/her dog pays no attention, I'd be willing to wager that if they'd have been saying off, leave it, sit, etc. There dog would have been doing the exact same thing.
> 
> It's not the words that matter, it's the training.




^^^^^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> If you think back over your dog's life to the EH EH sound, think about what happened immediately following, and what happens now. More than likely you either intervened to prevent a reward or added some sort of punishment/physical method of getting the dogs attention.
> 
> That's why the "get it", not because they learned it out of thin air.


Actually the amazing thing is they got it the first time which of course you would say was impossible. I know a lot of dogs smarter than the people they live with and a lot of trainers too.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Jezzzzzz-------- what a twist. Then I can say, it's not the people or the trainers. it's no.no.no. all the time, for everything. It will make the command meaningless. Try to keep it to a minimum, you will be better for it. 

Keith


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

"no" is the primary command. 



Use "no" more in yard work and will rearly use "no" in the field.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Actually the amazing thing is they got it the first time which of course you would say was impossible. I know a lot of dogs smarter than the people they live with and a lot of trainers too.


If that were true infant humans would be born with a full working vocabulary. It's not a possibility for a human, much less a dog.

I'm not trying to insult you or a dog Nancy - it's just not possible.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I have 12 dogs and yes it most certainly is possible for dogs to be in tune with the owner by cues. You aren't going to change what goes on in reality and now relate it to "a full vocabulary" at birth of a human and take the focus off the fact that inflection and body language translate as our first learning experiences. If you have a close relationship with your dogs or even children and live with them, they read cues without having to be educated by verbalizing. If you have all that theory down, then you should easily have multiple field champions or even every dog you "train" you could turn into a field champion no matter what breed, but then I'm not trying to insult you.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

captainjack said:


> The key point that even those who believe no is used too much can agree on is that the word "no" has no more and no less meaning that "sit", "here", "back", "off", "leave it" or any or be word. - until the dog is taught.
> 
> If a dog owner comes in and says no-no-no, etc. and his/her dog pays no attention, I'd be willing to wager that if they'd have been saying off, leave it, sit, etc. There dog would have been doing the exact same thing.
> 
> It's not the words that matter, it's the training.


Silly me. I assumed we all agreed about this about 5 pages ago, and that the discussion was about whether a dog could learn a command that means something like "stop doing what you're doing (or about to do)."


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Here is a first hand story of what I have observed. When a trainer uses no as a clue.

A Friend of mine is working under one of the best schuetzen trainer on the west cost (Joel Monroe) My friend put his dog at a sit ( They say Sits ) If the dog breaks, they say nine ( Witch Means NO ) and the dog backs up to the same spot they started from. ( Some times it takes more then one nine to get them back to the spot) When He dose this I just shake my head. To me this counterproductive. I would just say Sits and put them back where they started from. Why would I let them break and then give them a command to go back. To me I am conditioning them, that it's OK to break, I will tell what to do.

I guess this works, but to me it's the long way around. What do you think?

Keith


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I couldn't train a dog without the word no or nooo or NO or NOOOOO!!!! or NO YOU &&&^%$ @$#!#0 #@!&.
It's probably the one word they understand the most and the best and probably the first word they learn. It is a multi purpose word just as sit is. It is a verbal collar correction. Not using the word no would be comparable to all positive training. YES! Good dog, NO! bad dog. Black and white. A dogs world needs to be as black and white as possible. How else would they know right from wrong? Praise and correction and repetition that's what it's all about. They like praise and don't like correction. Can you say force fetch? But before FF there is yes and no. I am at a loss here how do you train a dog without the word no?????????????????????


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Steve Shaver said:


> I couldn't train a dog without the word no or nooo or NO or NOOOOO!!!! or NO YOU &&&^%$ @$#!#0 #@!&.
> It's probably the one word they understand the most and the best and probably the first word they learn. It is a multi purpose word just as sit is. It is a verbal collar correction. Not using the word no would be comparable to all positive training. YES! Good dog, NO! bad dog. Black and white. A dogs world needs to be as black and white as possible. How else would they know right from wrong? Praise and correction and repetition that's what it's all about. They like praise and don't like correction. Can you say force fetch? But before FF there is yes and no. I am at a loss here how do you train a dog without the word no?????????????????????



Come, here, sit, heel, look, off, ECT.

Keith

Sit, hup,whoa, are my default commands, depending on what breed I am training. If they are doing something that I don't want, I use these. Except on the line.

Keith


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## motor-vater (Oct 28, 2013)

I actually think the most over used word in dog training is "Pro" not no... As in everyone is a pro... lol


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

truthseeker said:


> Come, here, sit, heel, look, off, ECT.
> 
> Keith
> 
> ...





All of which tells the dog to do something else but does not identify that he has done something wrong. Dogs are very capable of understanding two words put together. No, here. No sit. No tells them they made a mistake sit tells them what they are supposed to be doing. To me in this post you are doing the same thing you said you didn't understand what someone else was doing in post #69.
For example when teaching 3 handed casting you give an over cast and the dog turns and starts back, What are you going to do say sit? here? Don't even mention a stupid rope. Believe it or not a quick sharp NO! will work quicker and better than a stupid rope. It will stop him in his tracks which tells the dog he made a mistake followed by an exaggerated over telling him what he is supposed to do followed by praise. Dog says OHHHHH ok you meant over sorry I thought you meant back I get it now, lets do it again I'll do it right this time. So what's wrong with letting them them know they did something wrong? Kinda like sit nick sit. Over no over


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Steve Shaver said:


> All of which tells the dog to do something else but does not identify that he has done something wrong. Dogs are very capable of understanding two words put together. No, here. No sit. No tells them they made a mistake sit tells them what they are supposed to be doing. To me in this post you are doing the same thing you said you didn't understand what someone else was doing in post #69.
> For example when teaching 3 handed casting you give an over cast and the dog turns and starts back, What are you going to do say sit? here? Don't even mention a stupid rope. Believe it or not a quick sharp NO! will work quicker and better than a stupid rope. It will stop him in his tracks which tells the dog he made a mistake followed by an exaggerated over telling him what he is supposed to do followed by praise. Dog says OHHHHH ok you meant over sorry I thought you meant back I get it now, lets do it again I'll do it right this time. So what's wrong with letting them them know they did something wrong? Kinda like sit nick sit. Over no over


First, I don't use ropes, for simple casting. ( Min T's)I use boards and then piles. Place and then bridge ( over lay) it to over. Some times I don't even need this. It depends on how much drive the dog has. I just put the dog on the board and toss a bumper over " say Look" when I got the dog attention, I say "Over" and put my hand out. After that I go out and start placing the bumpers. 

If I get your drift and I am doing T work. I will condition the dog to indirect pressure. If the dog dose not do the correct command, I will give a stop Whistle with a correction and redirect. 

Keith

I know this is off topic.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Steve Shaver said:


> All of which tells the dog to do something else but does not identify that he has done something wrong. Dogs are very capable of understanding two words put together. No, here. No sit. No tells them they made a mistake sit tells them what they are supposed to be doing. To me in this post you are doing the same thing you said you didn't understand what someone else was doing in post #69.
> For example when teaching 3 handed casting you give an over cast and the dog turns and starts back, What are you going to do say sit? here? Don't even mention a stupid rope. Believe it or not a quick sharp NO! will work quicker and better than a stupid rope. It will stop him in his tracks which tells the dog he made a mistake followed by an exaggerated over telling him what he is supposed to do followed by praise. Dog says OHHHHH ok you meant over sorry I thought you meant back I get it now, lets do it again I'll do it right this time. So what's wrong with letting them them know they did something wrong? Kinda like sit nick sit. Over no over


 I blow a whistle or say sit and use attrition ... sometimes, only sometimes do I say no in three handed casting


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I blow a whistle or say sit and use attrition ... sometimes, only sometimes do I say no in three handed casting






Why? What's wrong with no? Not saying what you do is wrong but geez this aint rocket surgery. I mean holy (#*$ 8 pages on the word no. It don't matter if you say no or blow a whistle as long as the dog gets the message. 
Whats this world coming too. Your not supposed to eat red meat, don't spank your kids, people getting arrested for letting their kids walk to a public park unsupervised, make your kids wear a stupid little helmet when they ride their bikes and now where not supposed to tell our dogs no.
Truthseeker hauls out boards for the dog to sit on for 3 handed casting. I don't understand the logic in that. Sure as heck not something Im gonna do but hey if it works for him more power to him. I'm stickin with the word no. I use it and I use it often. This thread did get me to thinking though. I have noticed just how much I do use the word. For me to give up the word no would very hard.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Nobody says you have to give it up... it was just a food for thought thread....Glad it got you thinking.Trust me I am NOT politically correct ,has nothing to do with that!!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

It's not about never using "No". There are appropriate times and uses for it. 

It's about saying "No" too much, when it doesn't have any real meaning other than "Goshdangit, I'm frustrated."


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## David Lo Buono (Apr 6, 2005)

The over analyzing of dog training continues.....


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

David Lo Buono said:


> The over analyzing of dog training continues.....




Pretty much what I was trying to say. Should have said just that and been done with it or said nothing at all.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Steve Shaver said:


> Why? What's wrong with no? Not saying what you do is wrong but geez this aint rocket surgery. I mean holy (#*$ 8 pages on the word no. It don't matter if you say no or blow a whistle as long as the dog gets the message.
> Whats this world coming too. Your not supposed to eat red meat, don't spank your kids, people getting arrested for letting their kids walk to a public park unsupervised, make your kids wear a stupid little helmet when they ride their bikes and now where not supposed to tell our dogs no.
> Truthseeker hauls out boards for the dog to sit on for 3 handed casting. I don't understand the logic in that. Sure as heck not something Im gonna do but hey if it works for him more power to him. I'm stickin with the word no. I use it and I use it often. This thread did get me to thinking though. I have noticed just how much I do use the word. For me to give up the word no would very hard.


People that use Hillman are always touting how steady their dogs are. I found this method to be just as sound. Using them for angle backs is even better and I use it more for that. There is vary little, if any digging to the back pile, because they already know to go to their place and no ropes. Jim Dobbs has use this method long before me. never say never,it might bit you in the a**

Keith

you will never see me using ropes. Nothing more then my 6ft rope lead.

OOP!! I said never to We all make mistakes.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

David Lo Buono said:


> The over analyzing of dog training continues.....


I could be wrong, but I think that what this forum is all about. Analyzing dog training.


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

Bridget Bodine said:


> I blow a whistle or say sit and use attrition ... sometimes, only sometimes do I say no in three handed casting


What about "no, no" drills, do you do them? and if you do, what word do you substitute for the word no?


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## Rick Hall (Jan 21, 2003)

motor-vater said:


> I actually think the most over used word in dog training is "Pro" not no... As in everyone is a pro... lol


Amen. This thread's a great example of how much more adaptable dogs are than humans.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

A team said:


> What about "no, no" drills, do you do them? and if you do, what word do you substitute for the word no?


Already said I use it for no no drill. As I am sure you know , no no has nothing to do with three handed casting


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

if you all think "we" overuse no. think of all the things we do with our dogs call name????
from the hovering over the kitchen trash can thinking about snacking, to running out and getting a duck. and everything in-between!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Tisk Tisk, all these puppies being brought up these days, that have never heard the word NO..Just what kind of generation are we creating. pretty soon it'll be time-outs, use your words, and 3hrs of negotiation to get a dog to go outside and stop him from peeing on the couch saying things like "Consider the consequences"


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> If you have all that theory down, then you should easily have multiple field champions or even every dog you "train" you could turn into a field champion no matter what breed, but then I'm not trying to insult you.


You know as well as I do that there's a whole lot more to making FC's than anything I do. I train pet dogs for crying out loud. We're not arguing about advanced field work here. We won't argue about that because I don't know it well enough. 

I train about 25 or so hours a week + all the rest of running a business. I wouldn't have time to train a field trial dog if I wanted to (and I don't). 

Keep in mind my job Nancy - it involves:

About 15-20 different dogs per week rotating in and out on a monthly(ish) basis - so at this point I'm around 200 - 250 dogs a year 
About 1.5 people per dog - taking into account educating both spouses or in some cases whole families (300 - 400 people a year)
Every breed under the sun
Every problem under the sun from fear to aggression to over excitement (thankfully most of the cases)
Not dealing with well bred dogs (in most, but not all cases)
Not dealing with people who really want to make dog training a hobby or a vocation

So - we can dance around and "not insult each other" all we like. 

You are right - dogs learn very quickly through experience what your intention is when they hear a certain intonation or see a certain body language. 

I see this all day every day as I make assessments of dogs with behavioral problems and try to figure out where the triggers are, how to prevent and or teach the dog to better deal with them.

I have to think on a different plane that most people. Even someone like yourself with massive experience in owning/breeding/training dog looks at life with a canine differently than I do. Part of that is personality BTW. I am an extremely analytical person and not terribly emotional (when it comes to dogs).

Once I make an assessment I then have to translate that into very very simple systems and instructions so people with no background can execute them effectively. 

All of the nuance you're talking about is lost on these people. That makes my viewpoint different than yours, and it has nothing to do with my ability to train an FC.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I am an extremely analytical person and not terribly emotional (when it comes to dogs).


I think herein lies the difference with the type of communication, where less verbiage is possible. Not only do dogs have to respect handlers, but the handlers have to respect the dogs to make correct choices. I think that communication closeness is the bond many of us see with our dogs at upper levels, often called teamwork.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Ken Bora said:


> if you all think "we" overuse no. think of all the things we do with our dogs call name????
> from the hovering over the kitchen trash can thinking about snacking, to running out and getting a duck. and everything in-between!


Ken;

OK, you got me there. I use their name a lot in informal situation as a attention getter. I have use their names sense they where puppies for a come over here and be good.

Keith


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## passthru (Feb 27, 2015)

I have been trying to use no less and saying her name then giving a command for the desired behavior the last couple of days. It takes some getting used to but I can see how it can be just as effective in control and may even be better suited for positive reinforcement training use.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Ken;
> 
> OK, you got me there. I use their name a lot in informal situation as a attention getter. I have use their names sense they where puppies for a come over here and be good.
> 
> Keith


lol ..Yea, and I like a 'geek' kept a score card for all them that previously said they only send their dog on a mark with the dogs name


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

polmaise said:


> lol ..Yea, and I like a 'geek' kept a score card for all them that previously said they only send their dog on a mark with the dogs name


Hope the old Hack, is not on your list.  I don't do a lot of OB, when they are babies. Sit, come to their name and a little leash control. The reason why I do this is, because their attention spans are almost nothing and they don't do it all the time. I work on all the natural stuff. Puppy retrieves, water, environment and play. Control will come in time. You can take it out much easier, then you can put it in. 

Trust me they will know the difference between their name in the yard and a retrieve.

Keith


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

When coming off the line and the person walking up to the holding blind asks did you get'm? NO!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Hope the old Hack, is not on your list.
> Keith


lol  having a laugh and a beer ;-)


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> You know as well as I do that there's a whole lot more to making FC's than anything I do. I train pet dogs for crying out loud. We're not arguing about advanced field work here. We won't argue about that because I don't know it well enough.
> 
> I train about 25 or so hours a week + all the rest of running a business. I wouldn't have time to train a field trial dog if I wanted to (and I don't).
> 
> ...


I think your cumulative experience w/ so many different dogs you handle is an asset compared to someone w/ one or two dogs. Very valuable. IMO


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I have to disagree with the OP; I think it's a toss-up between heel, here and sit.

Sit close enough to the line to hear what goes on between the last holding blind and the line and also at the line. Then, make a "hash mark" next to the dog's number in the catalog every time you hear one of these commands used. I hope you're quick with a pencil. It's an eye opener for sure. The REALLY WELL-TRAINED dogs will stand out.-Paul


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I think your cumulative experience w/ so many different dogs you handle is an asset compared to someone w/ one or two dogs. Very valuable. IMO


Agreed ! 10 fold !!!
Just like a forum would have 'multiple complexities' ..But some Posters would have 1 champion 
99% of posts from those asking advice would be looking for advice from those that could possibly have experience of an issue ,rather than a declaration from those that have not but offer advice anyway .


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think herein lies the difference with the type of communication, where less verbiage is possible. Not only do dogs have to respect handlers, but the handlers have to respect the dogs to make correct choices. I think that communication closeness is the bond many of us see with our dogs at upper levels, often called teamwork.


Well said!!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Interesting and amusing also educational the responses from all the posters on this thread! ? Who would have thought 10 pages on the 'word' No ?
I held a training group class at the weekend and I had pre-planted a few cold blinds out on a 4 acre training field. It took me over 100 words and more than a few reference points to be absolutely sure that the handler was aware where that planted blind was ! even then a few remarked ''I thought it was a bit more to the left or the right'' ? lol.

The dogs and handlers that just got on with it lined the dog and cast it in the direction I was pointing making sure the line was putting the dog downwind of where the references were. Those same handlers on the way back from the training field just said 'No' when their dog went to eat the sheep poo! 
The others failed the blind .Just a thought ?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think herein lies the difference with the type of communication, where less verbiage is possible. Not only do dogs have to respect handlers, but the handlers have to respect the dogs to make correct choices. I think that communication closeness is the bond many of us see with our dogs at upper levels, often called teamwork.


"Fluidity" of communication gets better over time, having nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with consistency.

Glen mentioned a usage of the word NO that was very consistently followed by a known command. Works GREAT! 

The average person just says NO NO NO with nothing behind it except... pressure of some sort, be it spacial, social or physical. Works GREAT dog cowers and slinks off as if they "know what they did wrong". Not so good emotionally for the dog, wouldn't you say?

Unfortunately the majority of people I see fall into the latter camp not the former.

Shoot me for analyzing what will and won't work and what helps keep a dog feeling positive about their job, please, somebody shoot me.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

labman63 said:


> When coming off the line and the person walking up to the holding blind asks did you get'm? NO!


If their retrieving like a wild man, running like the wind and start blowing me off, all the time. I guess it time for formal training.

Keith


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Reminds me of asking "what part of 'no' don't you understand?"

"NO" is used every day in life. I can't say I use it in formal training (much). 

It makes sense to use "NO". Have you ever watched a pack of dogs? The alpha dog will bark and snap at the pup pulling on his ear. That bark is saying "NO". The pup isn't traumatized. It is learning. 

NO means stop what you are doing. 90% of the time it is followed with another command (the right thing to be doing). But sometimes it just means "stop that".

I'm not aware of any issues a dog has had resulting from use of the "NO" command.

I have seen, over and over, the results of kids not being told "NO".


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

DarrinGreene said:


> "Fluidity" of communication gets better over time, having nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with consistency.
> 
> Glen mentioned a usage of the word NO that was very consistently followed by a known command. Works GREAT!
> 
> ...


 Thank for having the wherewithal for explaining....


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> Glen mentioned a usage of the word NO that was very consistently followed by a known command. Works GREAT!
> 
> 
> Shoot me for analyzing what will and won't work and what helps keep a dog feeling positive about their job, please, somebody shoot me.


Read post 10 and then go work on your reading comprehension skills

"NO" has many uses. It can be effective as a stand alone command as well as a precurser for another command


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

But, but it was such such a convenient way to insert the victimization of it all, for those that dare say just plain old NO to those poor dogs just trying to steal a chip.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

"You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" - Ben Goldacre - from the book Bad Science: Quacks, Hacks and Big Farma Flacks

I read just fine Mark - which is probably the issue here. Organisms (humans too) aren't born knowing what the sounds in their environment mean. They learn it through experience. 

There's absolutely no valid argument against that premise. 

Whether people choose to be purposeful and analytical in their training is completely up to them. 

I really don't care to argue the point any longer.

I haven't trained 75 FC's so I don't know what I'm talking about anyway. But then, with that as the qualification - I guess we're all a bunch of hacks around here, aren't we...

I think I'll come back when Eckett, Farmer, Aycock, Rorem and that whole crowd start posting. 

Maybe there's a reason they don't.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I think I'll come back when Eckett, Farmer, Aycock, Rorem and that whole crowd start posting. Maybe there's a reason they don't.


I think they are busy training and talking to clients like they always have been.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> I think they are busy training and talking to clients like they always have been.


Yea and they aren't about to put up with people's bullshit either.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Many people who have lived with dogs over the years, who make dogs part of their everyday life, often come to the conclusion that dogs do have emotions, can think, learn, discover, have a sense of humor (or not), etc. I've had very intelligent, not particularly trainable, but very intelligent dogs who could think up some pretty creative stuff, one who played pranks on both us and the other dogs, one who was a consummate actress, and some that were, shall we say, not the sharpest blade in the drawer. No one is saying they are human, who would want such a wonderful animal to be human anyway? But, the only references we have are to human emotions, those are the tags we put on them. 

Maybe some of the cool-thinking, non emotional, analyst types, the ring the bell dog salivates crowd, see their dogs as strictly a paint by numbers business. I think some don't even like their dogs/clients terribly much. They can live and think how they want, but some of us really, really, really get sick of being lectured and talked down to like we're too dumb for our own good. The day my professional trainer treats me and my dog like imbeciles is the last day that trainer gets a check from me.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Here's a course at Duke University. https://www.coursera.org/learn/dog-emotion-and-cognition.
They do give dogs credit for problem solving, imitation of humans. I don't know how anyone that spends quality time on a lengthy basis can't see the intellect and emotion behind some of our well bred field dogs. That's where the respect comes in.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

mjh345 said:


> Read post 10 and then go work on your reading comprehension skills
> 
> "NO" has many uses. It can be effective as a stand alone command as well as a precurser for another command


mjh345;

I don't think anyone is saying that this method can not be used. I see it used many time and the dogs get to where they are going, in most cases. I am trying to let other know that there is another way, that is ( In my opinion) more effective with less stress on the trainers and dogs. I don't like it, when my dogs are in "conflict". ( NO then Yes) I know that conflict will happen during the training process, I have tried to structure my program to where I don't have to deal with conflict as much.

As a trainer I am learning and changing all the time. So don't think mine or any one trainers methods are in stone. I put this out there. To get others thinking and maybe they might see a situation some day that it might apply. 

Good Hunting Keith


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Here's a course at Duke University. https://www.coursera.org/learn/dog-emotion-and-cognition.
> They do give dogs credit for problem solving, imitation of humans. I don't know how anyone that spends quality time on a lengthy basis can't see the intellect and emotion behind some of our well bred field dogs. That's where the respect comes in.


I've seen that study pushed frequently by positive only "gurus". 

That's all well, good and fine until you try to use it as a basis for a training system that has to be taught to a human who can't remember to consistently say GOOD before they give a treat.

Science and studies and high level cognitive connections are all great for the sake of argument. Focusing on them in the real world is completely lost of 99% of the people who own and live with dogs.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I think you guys are way overthinking this. No, is probably the first command my dogs learn as little pups. No and a swat on the nose if they bite too hard, no this no that, they learn what no is. Later in life I use it less frequently if at all. I kind of use it like the opposite, "ok", in a more casual sense but they know what I mean.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

john robinson said:


> i think you guys are way overthinking this. No, is probably the first command my dogs learn as little pups. No and a swat on the nose if they bite too hard, no this no that, they learn what no is. Later in life i use it less frequently if at all. I kind of use it like the opposite, "ok", in a more casual sense but they know what i mean.


bingo!!!!!


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

John Robinson said:


> I think you guys are way overthinking this. No, is probably the first command my dogs learn as little pups. No and a swat on the nose if they bite too hard, no this no that, they learn what no is. Later in life I use it less frequently if at all. I kind of use it like the opposite, "ok", in a more casual sense but they know what I mean.


NO Really it has taken 12 pages and a good answer has arisen!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

That's not a good answer actually, unless you have a stable dog and know what you're doing (John, Mark, Nancy, Mary Lynn all fall into this group). 

You guys probably don't see the people with very shy, nervous puppies that turn them into aggressive adults doing exactly what John described. We all own and work with retrievers that are by and large pretty stable critters. All breeds and all dogs are not nearly as tolerant of such things and people tend to get over zealous as their emotions (frustration) take over. Next thing you know you have an Aussie Shepard or GSD that will tear the hell out of the owner. 

I know that sounds like positive only spin not based in reality but I get a lot of calls for simply aggression issues and the first think I usually see is that the dog is hand shy. Why would a dog not want to be touched by it's owner? There's nature nurture in the equation but people make matters worse for their dogs a lot of the time. 

I'm pretty far from a Nazi on dog behavior and will let a client do what they like MOST of the time, but I preach avoiding the word NO and striking dogs with hands or any other object. I just get too many calls from people whose dogs are dangerous.

I was at a house with a cute little mini Aussie yesterday. Dog was very nervous of myself and my assistant (who was doing the training). Was kind of odd until I saw the woman's 3 year old daughter... Puppy nips as normal so the second it gets near the daughter... she said NO and it got kicked. Anyone care to guess what's gonna eventually happen? 

Anyone with no kids looking for a year old male lab? I have one with full obedience training up for adoption. He bit an 8 year old. He also went after the husband. Anyone care to guess why? 

Just saying there's more out there to be considered when you deal with a high volume of dogs. That's all. Take from it what you will. Nothing... if that's what you think there is to learn.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

ErinsEdge said:


> Here's a course at Duke University. https://www.coursera.org/learn/dog-emotion-and-cognition.
> They do give dogs credit for problem solving, imitation of humans. I don't know how anyone that spends quality time on a lengthy basis can't see the intellect and emotion behind some of our well bred field dogs. That's where the respect comes in.


Nancy, have you "taken" this class? Was it worthwhile for you? It looks like fun.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> That's not a good answer actually, unless you have a stable dog and know what you're doing (John, Mark, Nancy, Mary Lynn all fall into this group).
> 
> You guys probably don't see the people with very shy, nervous puppies that turn them into aggressive adults doing exactly what John described. We all own and work with retrievers that are by and large pretty stable critters. All breeds and all dogs are not nearly as tolerant of such things and people tend to get over zealous as their emotions (frustration) take over. Next thing you know you have an Aussie Shepard or GSD that will tear the hell out of the owner.
> 
> ...


Darrin, you obviously promote yourself on multiple outlets. I must ask are you aware of what forum you posted this on?
This is a different audience


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Someone forwarded it to me and it does look interesting for all types of trainers, not just cooky trainers. I think there is a big push to be a better trainer, you have to get inside a dogs' head and modify your training for what is best for that dog. When I had a dog with Dave Ward I spent as much time in back of the line asking why did you do this and that as I could. Successful pros modify their corrections instantaneously for the dog they are running which is remarkable when they run a whole truck. I've had trouble with 2 dogs in the past, one a veteran and one a young dog, keeping balance and yet moving them forward. I admire pros who can do that with a whole truck of dogs. I think when looking for a good pro, that is what you have to look at, is if the pro can seamlessly change the training for what the dogs' each need, or is it cooky cutter training, one way,often my way. Watch the dogs and see if they are happy because corrections don't have to knock them down.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

I dealt with the "NO" thing last night while working with a client. Six month old wild child of a Lab, here because she's out of control and couldn't even walk on a lead two weeks ago. I worked the pup first to show him what we'd been working on and she did well and then turned the lead over to the owner...at which point the wheels fell off. 

It was his first time working with his pup since he dropped it off here, and the dog was both glad to see him and pushing to see what it could get away with. His conversation with the dog initially sounded sounded kinda like this: Sit. No, SIT! No! SIT!! Here. No, HERE! NO!! HERE!! 

at which point I suggested we start over and eliminate the No part, as well as reinforcing the command immediately rather than repeating and turning it into a conversation that both teaches the dog to count (let's see, I've got until I hear SIT for the third time before I actually have to do it) and to play "delay of game". 

We discussed the whole No thing, and he said he's always done it, because he wants the dog to understand it made a mistake. I said let's try redirecting the dog's focus by giving a single command rather than a sentence with lots of No in it. 

It was hard for him because it's such a habit, and the Nos kept popping out, so I changed the game a little. I told him every time he said No or repeated a command rather than enforcing it the first time, he owed me a quarter. I kept a running verbal tab. We were about three dollars in before he realized he was going home with an empty wallet if he didn't pay closer attention, and he started thinking harder about it. And once the "conversation" stopped and one word commands were given and promptly enforced if not obeyed, the pup's attitude changed to the way she acts and responds to me, and everything went smoothly. Keep it simple and keep it consistent.

After we put the pup away, we talked a little more. He said he understood my point, but what about when he needs to tell the dog "no bird"? I told him the dog would handle that with no problem, for two reasons. First, the dog hears it like one word: nobird so the NO! really isn't the same; and second, the voice inflection is a lot different than NO! SIT!

(oh, and I let him keep his three dollars.  )


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

ErinsEdge said:


> Here's a course at Duke University. https://www.coursera.org/learn/dog-emotion-and-cognition.
> They do give dogs credit for problem solving, imitation of humans. I don't know how anyone that spends quality time on a lengthy basis can't see the intellect and emotion behind some of our well bred field dogs. That's where the respect comes in.


I downloaded and started this course yesterday! If it weren't for other issues today, I would still have my head buried in it. Fascinating!!!!


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

2tall said:


> I downloaded and started this course yesterday! If it weren't for other issues today, I would still have my head buried in it. Fascinating!!!!


Is it free? Do you have to go in order and take the tests to proceed or can you just dip in and out of the modules?


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> That's not a good answer actually, unless you have a stable dog and know what you're doing (John, Mark, Nancy, Mary Lynn all fall into this group).
> 
> You guys probably don't see the people with very shy, nervous puppies that turn them into aggressive adults doing exactly what John described. We all own and work with retrievers that are by and large pretty stable critters. All breeds and all dogs are not nearly as tolerant of such things and people tend to get over zealous as their emotions (frustration) take over. Next thing you know you have an Aussie Shepard or GSD that will tear the hell out of the owner.
> 
> ...


Yes Darrin it took alot of work as you elude to. After working Mickey this am, I spent an 1 hour walking on a lead w/ another dog. We walked up and down little hills etc. Working very hard on him staying by my side & not forging. He was great this am. But the real value in this type of work as Darrin is refers to is your dog is not up to no good & the high powered dog is channeled into appropriate work that is benefiting me. Mickey used to bark as we went to train or get ready to train. He also did spin in boot room, jumping up etc. Now b/c I feel much more comfortable working him down w/ success I have a good dog at home that is ready to go but not carrying on. More work to do however. Darrin & Robert & Randy have great ideas on obedience & work ethics w/ your dog. IMO


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

mitty said:


> Nancy, have you "taken" this class? Was it worthwhile for you? It looks like fun.


I started the lessons last night just for fun. It costs $49 if you want a certificate and it costs (can't remember $) if you use dognition. He does give you free dognition if you do the course 3 free.The two lessons so far are interesting and there is a book I ordered The Genius of Dogs he suggested you get. So we will see! So far good!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Sharon Potter said:


> I dealt with the "NO" thing last night while working with a client. Six month old wild child of a Lab, here because she's out of control and couldn't even walk on a lead two weeks ago. I worked the pup first to show him what we'd been working on and she did well and then turned the lead over to the owner...at which point the wheels fell off.
> 
> It was his first time working with his pup since he dropped it off here, and the dog was both glad to see him and pushing to see what it could get away with. His conversation with the dog initially sounded sounded kinda like this: Sit. No, SIT! No! SIT!! Here. No, HERE! NO!! HERE!!
> 
> ...








Point well taken Sharon, good example. In your example "NO" can be over used. In fact in your example it shouldn't be used at all but I tend to think the problem here was not really the word no but the handler using it improperly. I still say the word "NO" is an important word when used properly just like any other tool in dog training.
Surprised to see this discussion still going on but after 125 replies I think the discussion should have been more about the proper use of the word rather than to use it or not.




PS. You would get a lot more than 3 bucks out of me around here in a days work.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

mjh345 said:


> Darrin, you obviously promote yourself on multiple outlets. I must ask are you aware of what forum you posted this on?
> This is a different audience


Yes Mark - the original question was "do you or don't you use it and why/why not".

I gave my rationale and have been jumped on by a bunch of people more or less calling hogwash. 

I have been trying since then to help people understand WHY I have that position, what observations prompt it and why I feel the way I do about it. 

You would think this audience would actually listen. They may not necessarily change what they personally do but someday... They may see a cowering little nervous puppy and treat it differently, or advise a friend to treat it differently because they remember this thread. 

If we get one of those out of this I will be happy.

I have a year and a half old Chessie male here who was very nervous when I got him. It took until 8 mos old for us to bond. Now he curls up to me for scratches better than any other dog I own. That's because I treated him in a certain manner and let him mature when I saw his personality. Very different than the wild child BLF I have whose ass I have been on since 4 mos old and is still tough to control sometimes. 

This where I become an advocate for careful, well thought out use of anything aversive in training. I'm no +R only advocate. I sell 6-8 collar jobs a month (and growing), but I am exceedingly careful and in some ways conservative about how I approach aversive styles of training. 

I've just seen too much crap out there that doesn't show up all that often in retrievers (I don' think).


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I started the lessons last night just for fun. It costs $49 if you want a certificate and it costs (can't remember $) if you use dognition. He does give you free dognition if you do the course 3 free.The two lessons so far are interesting and there is a book I ordered The Genius of Dogs he suggested you get. So we will see! So far good!


You'll enjoy Genius of Dogs Mary Lynn


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

mitty said:


> "No" for when dog has decision to make, and makes the wrong one, such as dodging shrub instead of jumping over it or scalloping. Usually "no, here" and dog is re-cast until she gets it right.


This is how I use it. Kind of as a prompt - that's not what I want, lets start over.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Sharon Potter said:


> I told him every time he said No or repeated a command rather than enforcing it the first time, he owed me a quarter. I kept a running verbal tab. We were about three dollars in before he realized he was going home with an empty wallet if he didn't pay closer attention, and he started thinking harder about it.


So I didn't have to get hit with that heeling stick after all  I learned the hard(er) way LOL as usual


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## T.Bond (Jul 7, 2014)

no is same onspanish dogs that s good hahalol


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Sharon Potter said:


> I dealt with the "NO" thing last night while working with a client. Six month old wild child of a Lab, here because she's out of control and couldn't even walk on a lead two weeks ago. I worked the pup first to show him what we'd been working on and she did well and then turned the lead over to the owner...at which point the wheels fell off.
> 
> It was his first time working with his pup since he dropped it off here, and the dog was both glad to see him and pushing to see what it could get away with. His conversation with the dog initially sounded sounded kinda like this: Sit. No, SIT! No! SIT!! Here. No, HERE! NO!! HERE!!
> 
> ...


Sharon

Looks like you have explain it better then I did.

Thanks 

Keith


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> So I didn't have to get hit with that heeling stick after all  I learned the hard(er) way LOL as usual



Darrin:

I don't understand your post. Please explain.

Keith


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Steve Shaver said:


> Surprised to see this discussion still going on but after 125 replies I think the discussion should have been more about the proper use of the word rather than to use it or not.


I'm guessing that was the original intent....it was about overuse, not never use.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> Darrin:
> 
> I don't understand your post. Please explain.
> 
> Keith


I used to talk a lot to the dog while I was working it... Boss + heeling stick = quiet Darrin... all in good fun but he did whack me a couple of times!

25 cents a pop would have cost me 50 bucks


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

mitty said:


> Is it free? Do you have to go in order and take the tests to proceed or can you just dip in and out of the modules?


the course is free. Absolutely no need to pay to get a certificate. I did purchase the book, The Genius of Dogs, because I'm interested in the whole subject. I don't know yet if I will buy the set of games, Dognition, until I learn how well any of them work with our well trained non couch decoration dogs!

BTW, Darrin, this is a "course" not a study. Participants are helping to build a study.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

2tall said:


> the course is free. Absolutely no need to pay to get a certificate. I did purchase the book, The Genius of Dogs, because I'm interested in the whole subject. I don't know yet if I will buy the set of games, Dognition, until I learn how well any of them work with our well trained non couch decoration dogs!
> 
> BTW, Darrin, this is a "course" not a study. Participants are helping to build a study.


Thanks, Carol. I joined the course but got impatient watching the lectures so now I am reading the book.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Sharon Potter said:


> I'm guessing that was the original intent....it was about overuse, not never use.


Yep , the title says...."most overused"


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Yep , the title says...."most overused"





To me it would be more like miss-used than over-used cuz I use it a lot and don't feel it is over used


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

OK Steve you're right


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

Took the words right out of my mouth. What the crap does it matter? Next we should debate leather vs nylon leads!!


David Lo Buono said:


> The over analyzing of dog training continues.....


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Bridget Bodine said:


> OK Steve you're right





No Bridget your right, excuse me for having an opinion. As others have said this is waaayyy over analyzing dog training.
Think I'll just quit posting on here. So many professionals here that know it all there is nothing I can add.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Steve Shaver said:


> No Bridget your right, excuse me for having an opinion. As others have said this is waaayyy over analyzing dog training.
> Think I'll just quit posting on here. So many professionals here that know it all there is nothing I can add.



It's always nice to hear from someone that trains RETRIEVERS, and a lot of them, to a high level.


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

In reference to the bickering,,, NO! NO! NO! NO!


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Gauge123 said:


> In reference to the bickering,,, NO! NO! NO! NO!


Actually, I prefer turning the hose on 'em.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Steve Shaver said:


> No Bridget your right, excuse me for having an opinion. As others have said this is waaayyy over analyzing dog training.
> Think I'll just quit posting on here. So many professionals here that know it all there is nothing I can add.


Steve;

The old saying is. That the only thing that two trainers can agree on, is that the third one dose not know what they are talking about.

Keep it real and have fun.

Keith


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

No where did I say anyone was WRONG in their use of no... I just said it was overused. You all are the ones making much to do about this thread....Just a food for thought thread, not you are right , I am wrong.... lighten up people!!!


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## Gauge123 (Dec 3, 2012)

When this thread got 40 replies I was amazed. Now I'm entertained. And I've started noticing my use of the word "NO" around the dogs. I used "NO", once when Gauge was playing and bumped a rickety stand that I happened to set my coffee on, and something similar to "NO" when the pup grabbed a Croc (shoe) to run off with it.

I don't know how to spell "AAANH"


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