# Chocos !!



## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

I was at the reproductive specialist Wednesday and they had 18 Chocolates in for AI and or natural breedings.Thought that was rather interesting.............


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Lots of pedigreed, untitled females around, and with very few higher level titled chocolate males, they can only be bred AI.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Misty Marsh said:


> Lots of pedigreed, untitled females around, and with very few higher level titled chocolate males, they can only be bred AI.


WHAT?????????

I don't get this statement in response to Jay's.

I think Jay is just notating that on a average day, to have that high of percentages of a particular color of a lab in for breedings was odd.

How do you know they were not titled or pedigreed?

WRL


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Yes,I didnt ask,nor would I be told anything regarding the dogs that were in for breeding.Gator Points uses this specialist,as well as the flourishing " specializing in Chocolates" types in these parts.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

I guess my point was poorly stated, I was getting at the point that the AI chocolate link could be spawned by the many pedigreed female choclates being bred to the few competitive males by AI. From what I've seen lately many chocoalte litters are pedigreed, untitled feamles bred to the usual suspects (Roux, Ticket etc..) via AI. Of cource chocolate is still the "trendy" color in the companion dog market too.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

you are right on....my client is breeding a Devil female with HR title to Roux (Frank Price's) via AI.They told me some of the occupants were males for collection or natural breeding.

Merry Christmas!!!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

WRL said:


> WHAT?????????
> 
> I don't get this statement in response to Jay's.
> 
> ...


How could you figure what the percentages were?


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

Hi.The percentage was 100% as they only have 18 kennels.Thats what was so amazing to me was a full house of chocos.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

thats exactly the problem with chocos. to many bad ones are breed just because of thier color. thats why thier rep is so bad. you rarely see a good one. chocolate breeders should be more responsiable. i know im opening a can of worms but its the truth.


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## wsumner (Mar 5, 2004)

Kip,
That statement only proves that that your parents should not have mated and that you shouldn't be bred either.


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## LabLady (Jan 27, 2003)

Sorry, but I have to agree with Kip. It's sad but true.

LL


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Jay, I was there Thurs. afternoon, dropping off Gundy, our German girl. Normally we drag the girls back and forth rather than board, but I had kidney stone removal proceedure scheduled for Friday, 5:30 AM. When I was there there was a black female, two beagles and two empty pens. The rest were Chocolate, some male/ female and I was familiar with most of them. Kip wouldn't have known a one of them. By the way Kip, Roy Redifer has a Chocolate female named Penny that may well end up being the second FC AFC behind Taduh to carry the titles. I'm pulling for her. Tuff being Brown in a Black world
________
Live Sex Webshows


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

kip said:


> thats exactly the problem with chocos. to many bad ones are breed just because of thier color. thats why thier rep is so bad. you rarely see a good one. chocolate breeders should be more responsiable. i know im opening a can of worms but its the truth.


BINGO!!!!!


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

kip said:


> thats exactly the problem with chocos. to many bad ones are breed just because of thier color. thats why thier rep is so bad. you rarely see a good one. chocolate breeders should be more responsiable. i know im opening a can of worms but its the truth.


I second this and add yellows to this statement although thier rep and records are better.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

kip said:


> thats exactly the problem with chocos. to many bad ones are breed just because of thier color. thats why thier rep is so bad. you rarely see a good one. chocolate breeders should be more responsiable. i know im opening a can of worms but its the truth.



Kip,
the problem you mention is prevalent in Labs in general not just the chocolates. Kennels breeding Labs from their own stud while there are countless other males that would be a better choice for a sire.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

wsumner said:


> Kip,
> That statement only proves that that your parents should not have mated and that you shouldn't be bred either.


Wayne,

Brother, we cannot tolerate this sort of personal attack on RTF.

I was ready, when travelling and checking out RTF via my BlackBerry, to deactivate your account and call it a day. Now that I'm at my desk, I see that you have been using RTF for a while and seem to be one of the regular Joes.

Please ackowledge that this sort of stuff won't happen anymore and it probably wouldn't hurt to let Kip know that you're not going to attack him like that anymore.

Kip's a veteran choco guy and is entitled to an opinion or two here on RTF, as long as he's not attacking anyone! Maybe you two have some past history that I'm unaware of. I'm going off of what's in this thread and RTF is not here for that sort of use.

The ball's in your court. 

Chris


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Years ago Cleo and I had a "Brown Dog' that we had been encouraged to enter in Derby. When we appeared at Staple's Dairy with Candy a very intelligent sage said, " Look at those fools, coming on the trial grounds with a Brown Dog, they ain't got no sense, they can't count to three". Well, that pissed Cleo off and we decided to try to produce a Chocolate that could count to three. Took a good while, but Mark Huffman got one of our pups and did it, but he asked that we not put a congratulatory add in the RTF saying "See, they can count to three." He was still running amongst the prejudiced.

Yes, there are some dumb Chocolates being bred out there, BUT THERE ARE MORE DUMB BLACKS BEING BRED BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE OF THEM. There are those of us that are doing the best that we can to breed better Chocolates and over the years I feel we have. Candy never made the Derby list, but she did get the recognition of a number of field trialers. Mark did with Taduh and there are a bunch of Hunt Test dogs out there that have made a pretty good mark for themselves. We have been fortunite to get dogs with people that were not "color blind" and loved and trained the dogs as they wanted them to be.

You know, now that I think about it, there are some pretty dumb people breeding themselves out there too! I know that the shoe wouldn't fit any one reading this, but years ago we did a better job of breeding.Wheeeeeee! Love to all you, Bill
________
DIY VAPORIZER LIGHT BULB


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

wsumner said:


> Kip,
> That statement only proves that that your parents should not have mated and that you shouldn't be bred either.


that applies to most of us on this board...my mother and father are both legally blind without glasses but had three kids anyway….go figure all three kids have perfect vision. 

BTW, it may hurt someone’s feelings but Kip is correct


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Y'all are right there are soem dumb chocolates being bred out there, but there are some outstanding ones being bred too. 

Bill is right there are MORE dumb blacks out there than chocolates b/c there are more. Logic just tells you that.

Before I got my Roux (Ronnie Prudhomme's) female I looked and looked at chocolate's both female and male and there were plenty of great males and females out there. But, I think it'll take awhile for people to notice them b/c people have been so in love with blacks and yellows, but mostly blacks. 

I think what Gator Points has done is outstanding and I think if other chocolate owners did things by their blue print then there would a more abundance of great chocolates.

Cory


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Three years ago Cleo went to Germany to deliver a pup to an X-inlaw that we dearly loved. While there she bought 2 Chocolates of different German registries. When she got home we went to register them with AKC and with UKC. AKC charged $50 to consider each pup, but they didn't recognise either of the German registries, so they did not register them. THEY DID NOT RETURN THE $50.00 REGISTRATION FEE EITHER.

UKC did register the dogs and when Gundy turned two, had GOOD hips, CERF eyes we bred her knowing that none of her offspring could ever be registered with AKC or run any of their events. The pups were sold with that clearly understood with the new owners.

We had bred her to HRCH Gator Points Dirt Road Sport (OFA Excellent, Cerf clear) who was sired by FC-AFC Meadow Woods Dusty Roads and will again when her timing is right. The people that got last years pups wanted companion-hunting dogs and have been delighted with the way the pups are developing. Every one does not want a Field Trial Dog. Most would be driven nuts by one, but as a wise man said years ago-- There are different strokes for different folks. By the way, Sport hasn't passed any tests lately--We have frozen semen on him and he has been dead for a number of years now. RIP

We do these dogs for fun and to see what they will do next. Why do you? Bill
________
Live sex


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## yukonriverriley (Aug 15, 2007)

You know, a lot of litters throw chocolate and black pups. Are the black pups inherently better than the chocolates in the litter, or are they both worthless by these standards? FC Running with the Devil is chocolate factored and has sired chocolates, I thought he was pretty highly regarded? I think it is just plain silly to make broad generalizations about breed colors, they all came from the same lines at some point. My black female is by Cuda's Blue Ryder and had most of her littermates be chocolates. One was a JH by 6 months of age and has some UKC titles as well now (he just turned 1 yr old in Nov). My dog's got Lean Mac, Gates, Hattie McBunn, and a litany of other top "black" dogs, but she's also got some top chocolates (Storm's Riptide Star, Barracuda Blue, etc). It seems ridiculous to blanket lab colors in the field trial/hunt test world(s) when they're all related to some degree anymore. I understand the difference between the show lines and field trial lines, but I don't get getting down on field trial/hunt test lines based on the color. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Bill Watson said:


> Years ago Cleo and I had a "Brown Dog' that we had been encouraged to enter in Derby. When we appeared at Staple's Dairy with Candy a very intelligent sage said, " Look at those fools, coming on the trial grounds with a Brown Dog, they ain't got no sense, they can't count to three".
> 
> Those people were stupid Bill. Since you were entered in the Derby, your dog only needed to count to 2 not 3, regardless of what color he was


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

mjh345 said:


> Bill Watson said:
> 
> 
> > Years ago Cleo and I had a "Brown Dog' that we had been encouraged to enter in Derby. When we appeared at Staple's Dairy with Candy a very intelligent sage said, " Look at those fools, coming on the trial grounds with a Brown Dog, they ain't got no sense, they can't count to three".
> ...


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## Finn McCool (Dec 8, 2007)

Pardon my relative newness to the breeding world, but as the proud new papa of a chocolate male as of tomorrow, I was under the impression that a Labrador's coat color had as much to do with their intelligence as a blue eyes vs brown eyed human. I understand the situation where an all brown litter is bred for that specific purpose, as opposed to good bloodlines, but for tri-factored dogs from mixed litters, is a brown dog neccesarily inferior to a black one?


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

Finn McCool said:


> Pardon my relative newness to the breeding world, but as the proud new papa of a chocolate male as of tomorrow, I was under the impression that a Labrador's coat color had as much to do with their intelligence as a blue eyes vs brown eyed human. I understand the situation where an all brown litter is bred for that specific purpose, as opposed to good bloodlines, but for tri-factored dogs from mixed litters, is a brown dog neccesarily inferior to a black one?


Color _per se_ is not the problem. The problem is that chocolate is a recessive trait. To breed chocolate dogs, you need to seek out other carriers of the recessive trait and that limits your choices in breeding stock. As a consequence you are almost forced to make compromises that may affect performance. I have a chocolate female that I decided to breed because I believe she has a lot of talent and personality as well as genetic soundness. I finally decided to use Barracuda Blue and I'm excited about the litter. However, there is no question that my focus on color severely reduced my breeding selections much more than would have been the case had I decided to breed without concern for color.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

wsumner said:


> Kip,
> That statement only proves that that your parents should not have mated and that you shouldn't be bred either.


maybe so. but i know a hellave lot more about retievers that you do. and by the way i have never been able to have children. 
as for gator point i should be thier poster child. i have had 3 field champoins out of thier bloodlines. im sure im the only one that has. and also by the way all three of my dogs are already qual for the national am this summer. so put that in your pipe and stick it up your !
sorry chriss i couldnt help it.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

kip said:


> maybe so. but i know a hellave lot more about retievers that you do. and by the way i have never been able to have children.
> as for gator point i should be thier poster child. i have had 3 field champoins out of thier bloodlines. im sure im the only one that has. and also by the way all three of my dogs are already qual for the national am this summer. so put that in your pipe and stick it up your !
> sorry chriss i couldnt help it.


The way I see it Kip, you aren't the one who needs to be apologizing!!


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## Gawthorpe (Oct 4, 2007)

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I still live with my mom and dad
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But there's whole ‘nother me
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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

I might disagree with the "Chocolates are inferior to every other color lab" notion, but I'm not going to lay a personal attack on somebody. That reminds me of grade school. 

Cory


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Kip, Would love to have you as a poster child! Sorry you can't have kids of your own. You can adopt me as long as you don't make me give up my Chocolate habit, I've had it nearly as long as you have lived.

Before some of youall not in the know get the wrong idea, Kips dogs are BLACK, grandchildren of Gator Point. I don't dwell on the relationship because of the embarasement it may cause Kip. He is really a sweet boy, thou a bit brusk at times. Bill
________
blonde girl Webcams


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## LabLady (Jan 27, 2003)

Okay, this happened a long time ago, but I think it is worth mentioning.

I had a chocolate female that I bred to a well known AFC CAFC black that threw chocolate. I can't remember the breakdown, but there were blacks and chocolates in the litter. Okay, same parents, same socialization, etc.

The day came that they were 6 weeks old and needed their first shots and exam. I took in the entire litter with the help of the staff. They were all placed in the examining room at the same time. What happened next really shocked me. The chocolates (and I mean ALL of them) were huddled in the corner under a chair and the blacks romped around as if nothing was wrong. A few moments later, the chocolates started to feel more comfortable and slowly came out from under the chair.

Ever since that day, I am convinced there is a difference - I'm just not sure what it is other than color.

LL

PS I own all blacks right now, but love all three colors!


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Just a thought. The lights in most vet offices are pretty bright. I wonder if the chocolate's eyes were a little more sensitive to the light. There is a difference between black and choco eyes, at least color wise.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

That makes a lot more sence to me !


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## TS (Sep 8, 2003)

Dogs should be bred due to their abilities and accomplishments and genetic soundness, not because of their color or where they originate (ex: British). That is, only the best should be bred to the best. Simple. Complicated.

Tim
Owner of a decent dog, Amatuer win and 2nd, 6/6 in MH tests, she happens to be chocolate but so what. She is a Labrador Retriever.

Not sure why I posted but sick of hearing that a dog was bred because it was choc, or British, or Antartican, or purple with pink polka-dots.

What type of dogs should be bred? What type of dogs do I like? Answer: Good Ones!


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

LabLady said:


> Okay, this happened a long time ago, but I think it is worth mentioning.
> 
> I had a chocolate female that I bred to a well known AFC CAFC black that threw chocolate. I can't remember the breakdown, but there were blacks and chocolates in the litter. Okay, same parents, same socialization, etc.
> 
> ...


Not to cause problems, but to show another experience. My black sired a litter of 12 puppies. The chocolate mother of the pups was trained for field trials. There were 3 blacks and 9 chocolates, the three blacks died at birth an the nine chocolates are still living.

Both of the stories give incidental observations that show which color is best but neither have sufficient quality in the information to draw conclusions that could be supported by enough observations to prove either story by statistics.


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

kipps statement is true in alot of ways but not only in brown dogs. I currently have a Qaa three year old brown dog and it would be very easy to do just as kipp stated. we can only hope that the $ potential of these special dogs yellows ,browns and blacks does not influence our breadings.
________
EXPERT INSURANCE


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

scott spalding said:


> kipps statement is true in alot of ways but not only in brown dogs. I currently have a Qaa three year old brown dog and it would be very easy to do just as kipp stated. we can only hope that the $ potential of these special dogs yellows ,browns and blacks does not influence our breadings.


 your right scott. its happening with all colors and all breeds of retrievers. last year on this forum i was slammed for not breeding one of my dogs to a certain female. i didnt believe it would be a good breeding thats all. you can look on the puppy classifed at see litter after litter reduced for quick sale. i have a female and i have bred her one time and i had all the puppies spoken for before i bred her. i will do the same if i do it again. to many people think its a easy way to make a quick buck and then it backfires on them.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

TS said:


> Dogs should be bred due to their abilities and accomplishments and genetic soundness, not because of their color or where they originate (ex: British). That is, only the best should be bred to the best. Simple. Complicated.
> 
> Tim
> Owner of a decent dog, Amatuer win and 2nd, 6/6 in MH tests, she happens to be chocolate but so what. She is a Labrador Retriever.
> ...


Well said!!


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## LabLady (Jan 27, 2003)

Ken,

I don't think it was the color of their eyes. Are blue eyes more sensitive to bright lights than brown? I don't think so.

Maybe it was just a coinsidence. But I did think it was a little strange and so did the vet ;>) 

LL

PS Some of my favorite labs were chocolate.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

Mine was to.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2007)

kip said:


> three of my dogs are already qual for the national am this summer.


Are you planning to show up for this one Hot Shot, or do ya just wanna talk about it? :razz::razz:


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

i will be there with bells on.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Bill Watson said:


> Kip, Would love to have you as a poster child! Sorry you can't have kids of your own. You can adopt me as long as you don't make me give up my Chocolate habit, I've had it nearly as long as you have lived.
> 
> Before some of youall not in the know get the wrong idea, Kips dogs are BLACK, grandchildren of Gator Point. I don't dwell on the relationship because of the embarasement it may cause Kip. He is really a sweet boy, thou a bit brusk at times. Bill


Its ok Bill. We ALL The know real reason Kip is being well you know.......

He's having sugar withdrawls........Hey Kip, its Christmastime....have some chocolate....

WRL


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

LabLady said:


> Ken,
> 
> I don't think it was the color of their eyes. Are blue eyes more sensitive to bright lights than brown? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


Well there is a reason why MOST of the natural inhabitants of the hotter climates are darker complected people......

Unfortunately we can't ask a dog why he is behaving a certain way so its hard to say but would be interesting to find out. I am TOLD that different coat colors can have different colored retinas or something similar to that concept (I'll have to ask my ACVO again.)

WRL


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Lablady,

I do not know about dogs eyes but in humans, YES blue eyes are more sensitive to light than brown eyes. The lighter the color eye, the more sensitive to light.

Janet


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I know when I was CERFing a litter, the vet mentioned yellow pups were more difficult to examine that chocs or blacks, something about the density or taking longer to dilate or something, I don't remember exactly since it didn't affect the pups. Just thought it was interesting when she mentioned there was a difference in the eye based upon coat color.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Chocolate is a recessive. In another life I raised animals that had chocolate color.
Chocolate coat color was light sensitive, so they were not allowed exposure to direct sunlight, or the color would "burn" and there goes points on the show table.

John
________
vaporizer wholesale


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

I am always amused when some gentlemen and ladies go on about how chocolate and yellow dogs are inferior because they are full of recessive genes. When you look around and there stands their beautiful blue eyed blond wife or husband - I guess it depends on which inferior recessive they prefer or which friend they care to insult. JMHO LOL


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Wow Cleo.....I'm blond/blue eyed. Maybe recessive...BUT DEFINETLY NOT INFERIOR.
________
uhwh warehouse


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I have 5 chocolates, they are hands down my favorite of the Lab colors, I don't know why, it's just what appeals to me personally. I have 4 yellows, ranging from fairly light to fox red, I have 3 blacks. I adore them all, I can't say one color is better or worse than the other because they all have their quirks. I have SH titles on all three colors. I haven't managed a MH title on anyone yet. In litters of all one color, yellow, chocolate or black, the pups vary in personality from pup to pup, I have mixed litters of yellows and blacks and blacks and chocolates, can't say I've ever noticed the coat color making a difference in an individual pup any different than litters of all black. I get asked by people what is the "best" color of Lab, I can offer FT statistics that blacks dominate followed by yellow and chocolate a distant third, which is in many ways influenced by the fact that blacks are what have been predominantly bred for FT for generations, but for my own experience, color doesn't mean much in relation to ability. I see just as many idiot black and yellow Labs as chocolates, it's the overall problem of the most popular breed of dog by far for many years being bred randomly for one specific thing, money, and the market fuels that. 

I have paid probably more than market value by a lot of people's standards for a litter sired by a chocolate MH stud that I have seen work and was awestruck by so I could have one of his pups by one of my good girls, who happens to be black. I kept a black female and now have a chocolate male from the same breeding. Yes, I get more for chocolate pups and even the fox reds than their black or yellow littermates, because the market allows it, but I certainly don't think one color is better or worse, overall, than any other. It depends on breeding, genetics, how a pup is raised and trained and as much as anything, that elusive x factor that produces the occasional superstar. All my dogs have their health clearances and run tests, except one choc female, before they are bred and I try to match my working girls with decent working dogs. Does color play a part in my breedings? Yes, in part. As long as all else matches, health clearances, pedigree and ability, then yes, I will breed a chocolate litter or a yellow litter or heaven forbid, even get some fox reds, because I personally prefer those colors over black. Do I choose those colors because I can get more money for them, overall? No. I spend a small fortune, and I do mean a fortune, on my dogs, breedable or not, and whatever I get back from pups only makes a small dent in the expenses. My life and schedule is dictated by my dogs, hunt tests, training and whelping because that is what I have chosen. I'm lucky enough to have a husband who supports what I do. If I had to live on breeding alone, no possible way to even make expenses and still keep the standards I have, even though I work harder at this "hobby" than any job I've ever had. If I can charge more for a chocolate or fox red than a black or regular old yellow from the same litter, I'd be an idiot not to, and I don't condemn buyers who want only a chocolate or a fox red or whatever, as long as they meet my other criteria for a puppy home.

People love what they love, be it a hot blonde bombshell or a nice dark chocolate bitch. If people want to discriminate in favor of or against a specific color, that's certainly their choice and no one deserves to be personally castigated for it. If there are breeders trying to bring along the chocolates and yellows by breeding for that color along with health and ability, so what. If they are breeding to get a litter of any color without regard to health, etc. but simply to supply a puppy market, then shame on them.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Kim, 

That MH you bred to, if you are referring to "Tank" Which you paid more than fair market value for the stud fee. Was not just an MH. That was an EXTREMELY talented dog that happened to become a victim of circumstance. 
I bred to him 6 years ago, handled him to his 1st MH leg and his last AA jam. 
Both times The only training i did with him was run a poison bird water blind (1 blind) 
You will love those pups. Keep a black one, I did. Best memory/ most trainable dog I have ever owned.

John
________
Rambler (bicycle) history


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Actually John, I was referring to Dakota's Cajun Roux, his stud fee before he died was a somewhat high amount for a GHRCH/MH, more than I've paid for FC AFC that was an AM Finalist. He was an awesome dog and I really feel for the Prudhommes with his loss so young and not denigrating at all the fee charged. I felt the stud fee worth it to get the pup I wanted with my NFC Prize bitch, my two pups I have, now 14 months, are talented, personable and good looking to boot and I hope to title them. 

I am very much looking forward to the litter with Tank too, who was another unfortunate Lab who died before his time. It was my first AI, frozen at that, and I hope it worked, expand those chocolate horizons a little further yet.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Kim,
> 
> That MH you bred to, if you are referring to "Tank" Which you paid more than fair market value for the stud fee. Was not just an MH. That was an EXTREMELY talented dog that happened to become a victim of circumstance.
> I bred to him 6 years ago, handled him to his 1st MH leg and his last AA jam.
> ...


I don't mean to intrude on or hijack your thread, but what is the story behind Tank?

M


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Miriam, Tank is Dreamcatcher's Nothin To It, MH/QAA. Son of NFC Storm's Riptide Star and Gusto's Foxy Lady. Big, handsome choc male, OFA EX, elbows normal, eyes CERF, CNM clear. According to his owners, excellent marking dog and land blinds, trouble on water blinds with amateur handlers was his issue. Won a 50 dog Qual at 25 months. We were scheduled for a natural breeding or possibly AI with both dogs in attendance as Tank was scheduled for an ACL repair on Halloween day. Turned out to be malignant tumor, not ACL, and Tank died within a couple of weeks. He was 10 and still working as of last summer. I'm not sure what Drakehaven/John means by victim of circumstances, he'll have to explain that one if he wants. John's got nice dogs and knows far more about the field trial circuit than I ever will, I'm just a hunt tester admiring from afar.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Kim,

Not ripping on Roux, however. Roux DID NOT possess that kind of talent. 
I seen them both, just my opinion.

John
________
starcraft 2 replays


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Kim,
> 
> Not ripping on Roux, however. Roux DID NOT possess that kind of talent.
> I seen them both, just my opinion.
> ...


Please elaborate on your opinion if you would. One passed the Grand 3 or 4 times, got a MH at 3 after already passing the grand twice for the GRHRCH title, and died at the very young age of 5 , The other had his MH and QAA and passed at least 5 years later than the the first. 
Not slamming or calling anyone out, just want to know the reason behind the logic


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Roux did not possess that kind of talent?? I don't understand the logic behind that statement. Captain Mike said about the titles Roux (Prudhomme) got.....action speaks louder than words. The dog was talented by far. I too am curious about the reason behind this thinking. He might not be field trial superstar that so many are in love with, but to say he wasn't talented is outrageous. He obtained his GRHRCH at 2 years old. He passed his first Grand at 22 months. Obtained his UH at 3 years old. A member of the HRC 500 point club. Youngest dog ever to compete at the Super Retriever Series. ONLY chocolate ever to compete at SRS.Like as was said by Capt Mike, Roux obtained his MH at 3. His HR at 14 months. HRCH at 20 months. And like I said he wasn't the field trial superstar that many are in love with, but for all the things he accomplished by the time he passed at 5 he's talented. Not slamming or calling anybody out just curious what led to the logic behind that statement.


Cory

I don't know much about the QAA Roux, so I cant comment.


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Wow Cleo.....I'm blond/blue eyed. Maybe recessive...BUT DEFINETLY NOT INFERIOR.



DRAKEHAVEN, you made my point. I too used to be blond and was never inferior either, just ask me.

Cleo


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

I knew I was gonna get someone all balled up with that statement.

I did not say the dog was not talented. 

I stated that my opinion betweeen 2 dogs was, one did not posses the kind of talent the other did. Again, I had SEEN /COMPETED AGAINST both dogs. Have you Cory ? 
You have listed facts about one, someelse listed some facts about the other.

The logic being over the 15 years of being around this game I am objective about dog flesh.
Having seen hundreds of dogs at tests and trials, where the game is the same but the window dresssing is diffrent. If they can mark, they can mark, if they run blinds straight and hard, if they take casts into/over the facotrs with courage & style, then whatever venue that be in is of NO consequence to me.

Tank was blessed with a WONDERFUL set of eyes. This is not compared to other brown dogs, compared to other trial or hunt test dogs. This is compared to every dog I have seen/ run against/ trained with, etc, blanket statement. 
He was very trainable and would run for anyone. Thinking 3 diffrent handlers piut MH legs on him due to his young owners schedule. Had AA finishes with 3 other handlers.
90 lbs of the greatest water entry (next to Roger Weller's Scanner) and a carbon copy look alike of his Grandsire NAFC Gus.
There are lots of dogs out there that are talented. Not just the ones that get the Rave reviews via the mass internet audiance.

John
________
swed


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> There are lots of dogs out there that are talented. Not just the ones that get the Rave reviews via the mass internet audiance.
> 
> John


Could it be that your problem with Roux is due to the owner figuring out how to market his semen?
A good dog is a good dog . He was a product of Honcho and Super Tanker and his sire passed the Grand 13 times. He carried on the tradition till his life was cut very short. He was a big, beautiful, high rolling but loving boy that knew how to be under control when he was told to, and accomplished much in a short time period. Let him rest in peace. He was a Good Dog that DID display exceptional talent. 

Next time why don't you just expouse a particular dog's virtues wihout demeaning another. Why don't we see where Kim's pups progress along with quite a few others that Roux sired and then make the call.


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## Bryan Manning (May 22, 2005)

FowlDawgs said:


> Youngest dog ever to compete at the Super Retriever Series.
> 
> 
> Cory
> ...


Not to nit pick and not that it really matters but the youngest dog to compete at an SRS was "Woody". Not many people remember him or know him. He was 18 months old at the 2002 SRS at Stuggart, AR. Oh and he won!


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Drakehaven,

Yes as a matter of fact I have watched Roux compete. I watched his sire compete too. I'll give you this you have waaaaaay more time in thsi game than I do. Roux was a heck of a talent. His record speaks for itself. I don't know Tank, so I have no idea about him. I also don't know about the QAA Roux, so again I have no idea about him. But, Ronnie's Roux I know about, I not only watched him and was around him, but I educated myself about him before I got my Roux female. I didn't say that there isn't talented dogs that don't get all the hoopla, I know for a fact that there are really talented dogs that people haven't heard of or seen on t.v or anything. 

Again, Roux was a special talent, like I and others have said his record speaks for itself. The logic is what he accomplished in his short life was remarkable and it also proves that he was a talented dog. Facts are facts.

Cory

Sorry if I seemed rude in my last statement and this one I'm really trying not to. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Tuffpup,

Thanks for the info. I was just going by what it says on his website. Now I know. Thanks

Cory


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Mike,

Read the 2nd line of my last post !!!!!
So before you were not calling me out and now you are ? 
My problem with Roux ? 
Do not have a problem with the dog, it's accomplishments, the owners, their ability to market semen, or the trainer (who's one heck of a good dog man) for that matter. 
I have, with my own eyes seen 2 dogs that I liked, I made a comparision. OBJECTIVELY.
Since when is that DEMEANING ? Since when do Bill & Cleo not breed to QUALITY animals that have talent ? When they decided to breed/advertise their breeding to him. 
I made an effort to go to a hunt test I was not even entered in just to watch ROUX.
Mike you DO NOT have to give me the stats on brown dogs or their pedigrees. 
If there is a whiff of fine chocolate cooking ANYWHERE, I already know about it.

John
________
rolling a joint


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Drakehaven,

I wasn't calling you out. I happened to put your name on my post because you asked me a question. Sorry about that. I should've read all of your post, my fault. 

I misunderstood what you were stating in your post. I'm kind of a illiterate fool. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. 

Cory


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Mike,
> 
> Read the 2nd line of my last post !!!!!
> So before you were not calling me out and now you are ?
> ...


John, I offered no stats. Nor did I try to offer any comparison between one dog or another. 
You offered a comparison between 1 dog that passed at age 5 and another that passed at age 10 and determined that one did not have near the degree of talent as the other. At what age did you determine the older dog to be superior to the younger? Call you out, no why would I? Your PREFERENCE is your own.

Liver colored lab owner since 1975
Mike


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Roux would have been 4 when I seen him. Tank was 26 months the 1st time I seen him. Diffrent dogs, diffrent trainers, diffrent owners, different competitions.
________
Straight-4 engine


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

To answer Captain Mike D, my BLF Roux pup passed two JH tests at 10/11 months with limited training after contracting 2 tick borne diseases over the summer and being down and out. Yes, I know JH tests don't mean squat to a lot of people, but there it is. She has heart and perserverence, a little on the immature/inexperienced side as far as distractions so I held off running her anymore til next season. She was progressing nicely on yard work until this cold snap shut us down for a while and shows me nothing but willingness to work and please and learn. She looks to be a big marking dog like her parents. She is very good in the house, other than a penchant for shoes. Her chocolate brother I just got back a month ago from his owner who was experiencing too many life changes to deal with a young dog anymore. Even though he is an intact male with no training other than some basic leash obedience, he is a well adjusted, good natured boy, learning quickly despite being behind the 8 ball by not starting til he was 13 months old. I have a long way to go with training on both pups, they need to get hips/elbow clearances, CERF being done recently, CNM clear by parentage, but for now, they are both showing me what I want in my personal breeding goals, looks, personality, desire and trainability, not soft or submissive but not boneheads, one happens to be chocolate, one black. 

Both Tank & Roux bring a lot to the table and my bitch is no slouch. Both Tank's owners and I are keeping pups and I have plenty of deposits for pups, so this is in no way a push or ad for this litter, just saying there are some worthy chocolates out there and no one needs to be bashed for having their own opinions on liking or not liking them. It isn't easy keeping emotions out of discussing our dogs though, or not taking it personally when one we like is maybe taking a hit, intentional or otherwise. Chocolates surely do seem to stir up some emotions, yikes.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Good points Kim.

There is not any emotion on my part when it comes to evaluating dogs wether as potential breeding stock or while training. When you are emotional you are not objective.
Any dog training/breeding is the wrong place for emotions. That's for the bedroom.

John
________
Pro Audio


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## dcr (May 31, 2006)

Capt mike said" The other had his MH and QAA and passed at least 5 years later than the the first"

Hi Captain Mike, my name is Bill Domeier - I was Tank's co-owner, handler and hunting buddy, 


To inform you a bit about my dog Tank - my uncle, Mike and I owned his mother and bred him. We did Tank's training until he was 14 months old. Tank placed in 5 informal derbies by 11 months of age, by 16 months of age he had finished 4 licensed derbies and we stopped running him until he was ready for the Qual which he won at 25 months of age in Kansas City in 99. He was on a very competitive truck of Dave rorem's in 2001 and Jammed 5 opens out of 12 trials with Dave running him. That was on a truck that had Multi Field Champions and National Finalists. Between 01 & 2007 we ran over 80 all age stakes and went out in the first series 8 x's. Most often the water blind got us. In 2002 we ran AKC Hunt tests for 3 1/2 months and completed our AKC Master Hunter Title- Tank was handled by 3 different handlers for his MH. (myself, John Ketzner & Greg Ye) Tank & I competed in a lot of all age field trials. This spring he got a reserve Jam in the open at 10yrs 3 months of age (handled by John Ketzner also) 

To my knowledge he was one of a very few Chocolates who had his MH,( 50 dog qual win) Qualified all age in the US and Canda and had 10 Jams in the Open/AM

I am not aware of another Chocolate dog that got a reserve Jam in the Open at 10 yrs 3 months of age. 


Capt Mike, if wish to talk about my dog and discuss just the facts there they are, to me, my family and friends he's a lot more than what I just talked about. 

Thanks
Bill


PS We've got a 9 month old 80 boy named TJ (Tank Jr) and he's a clone of his daddy. 
Away we go again.......................

We're very much looking forward to our new/future puppy from "Cay "


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## Captain Mike D (Jan 1, 2006)

Bill,

I did not talk about your dog. I asked a question based on what drakehaven had posted. Thanks for the info on your dog, his accomplishments you described are impressive , and I'm sure you miss him.

As Rainmaker said, it seems that BOTH your "Tank" and Ronnie's "Roux" have good traits to add to the Choc. gene pool.


Best of luck with the pup, sounds like he will be a good one too!

Mike


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

you guys can haggle all u wont about tank and roux or ever how u spell it. but there was only one and her name was sweet potatoe pie and the others records cant touch a light to hers. i am a little bias.


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

Thank you Kip.

Janet


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Who would have thought there would be all this fuss about Brown Dogs? It is just a coat color gene! One of those Brown Dogs just ate 1/2 a plate of bar-b-que off the island in the kitchen, but I still love her. Maybe it will make her pups a little more spicy.

Kippy, I agree with you about Taduh. Thanks to you and Mark. Bill
________
BigNipples


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Sorry but not only one kipp. FC abbys little copper national derby list ,FC at three Qaa at two years . Abby qualified for the 2006 national open at three years old with two open wins. By the way she is also brown.You have to excuse me I also am a little bias.
________
Zx14 vs hayabusa


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Scott, what has Abbys little cooper produced? Who has she been bred to?


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Abby has never been bread she is with John and Amy at Trueline Retrievers in Albany,Or . I think there will be a breeding in the future but no time soon. It would be a shame to take her off the truck at this time in her life she is doing to well. Abby had a real strong summer but just could not come up with the win to qualify for the national.
________
Extreme Vaporizer


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## tshuntin (Mar 22, 2003)

Scott, no doubt that Abby seems to be a great dog. I don't think you can compare her to Taduh though. Possibly similar in performance but, taduh has left an awesome legacy behind her as well.


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Abby's little Cooper is a very nice dog.

She very young still and is in there competitively most of the time. Remember she's been competing on the same circuit as Chopper, Carbon and Auggie. 

Wins are very hard to come by when you are running against those dogs.

This next year might open up a bit with Auggie and Carbon getting up there but a new batch of very nice dogs are coming up so who knows.

WRL


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

scott spalding said:


> Sorry but not only one kipp. FC abbys little copper national derby list ,FC at three Qaa at two years . Abby qualified for the 2006 national open at three years old with two open wins. By the way she is also brown.You have to excuse me I also am a little bias.


sounds like a girlfriend for blue.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

I love all this chatter about the Brown Dogs! Kip and Mark with Tater is a wonderful story and Tater was as nice as they come.

Don't forget about AFTCH-FTCH Caroube de Morganville that was bred to Rascal as we talk about nice Brown Dogs. That litter had 6 of 8 pups I believe that became QAA in the US and Canada. At the Sudbury trial a few years ago the Brown litter took all the qualifing placements and the RJ if I recall correctly. 

Our Austin was one of that litter that QAA in the US at 20 months. Austin died this spring needing the 1 point for his AFTCH and some of those points came after losing his leg to cancer. The Master Hunter work was all done after the leg was removed. That Brown dog had as much heart and fire as one could want. 

keep up the discussion about the Brown Dogs, eventually a few more will break out plus the time and effort put forth says the investment goes to a proven record and our Brown Dogs just don't have the lineage yet.

From the guy who has the only QAA Brown Dog with a Master Title in the US and Canada and the the only Brown Dog (bitch) to ever finish the Canadian and AKC Master National and in the same year, 2007. I'll be the first to admit those MH titles aren't even close to the FC/AFC titles but it's pretty darn good especially when they are earned as an amateur trained and handled team. 

Maybe one can tell I am biased also!
Dave Kress


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## tenbears (Jun 15, 2004)

I own and trained a HRCH @ 11 MONTHS, MH title before 2, QAA @ 25 M0NTHS, AMATUER JAM @ 26 MONTHS, THEN SUFFERED INJURY, SO THERE IS ANOTHER CHOCOLATE BITCH OUT THERE MIKE JUDAS


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Well Scott & Lee,

Thanks for letting that secret out of the bag.

John
________
easy vape vaporizer


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

I agree with the other posts that nobody can touch Taduh. But, there are plenty of top quality brown dogs out there.


Cory


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

> I own and trained a HRCH @ 11 MONTHS, MH title before 2, QAA @ 25 M0NTHS, AMATUER JAM @ 26 MONTHS, THEN SUFFERED INJURY, SO THERE IS ANOTHER CHOCOLATE BITCH OUT THERE MIKE JUDAS


We have a chocolate bitch out of Mike's that won a Q at 21 months, MH shortly after that and has several Open and Amateur JAM's as well in very limited trialing. Hope to get to run her more this year.


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Well Scott & Lee,
> 
> Thanks for letting that secret out of the bag.
> 
> John


 Is this sarcasim? This has been a very intresting post so far with many off shoots and strong opinions. I also have strong feelings about brown dogs. The facts are very clear in the field trail game though. there have been a few sucessfull field trial labs that are or were brown. there has been less than a few that were more than common in the field trial game. Definition of common from my stand is alot of dogs in field trials that through out there lives gain enough points to title. This is common in field trials. A exceptional talent in the field trial game has been matched by only a very small hand full of brown dogs. Off the top of my head I can name 20 Nfc or Afc black dogs and only one brown one. For those of us who trulely love brown dogs it is a challange we elect to face. Hopefully we will all be carefull with the breadings that we do with our studs and bitches so as to futher the respect of the collor and not just our bank accounts.Trust me I am bashing no one here just making a statement that I feel is correct.
________
PISSING VIDEO


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

Not to jump in late, but more people are running blacks.


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## Jay Dufour (Jan 19, 2003)

hey Bill....Wonder why they told us that they had a full house ? They said there was only one kennel left,and they were all chocolates. It was the girls in the front,and it was Thursday at 10:30 AM ....same day.......


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Sarcastic........I Suppose.
________
volcano vaporizers


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Brown Dogs do have a tough battle with getting respect from folks, but with the proper responsible breedings and the hard work of brown dog lovers they'll eventually get the respect they deserve.

Cory


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

born2retrieve said:


> Not to jump in late, but more people are running blacks.


Because black is dominant.....


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

kip said:


> sounds like a girlfriend for blue.


I'd take one of those...


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I bought my first chocolate in 1979, since then every dog but two have been out of a litter that had the potential to produce a chocolate factored pup.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

"Brown Dogs do have a tough battle with getting respect from folks, but with the proper responsible breedings and the hard work of brown dog lovers they'll eventually get the respect they deserve." How true!! When a choco earned CNFC it was a fluke, many still feel it's just a weak gene, notoo different than yellows were, it will just take time and careful breeding to bring the resessive coat color up to the rest.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Misty Marsh said:


> "Brown Dogs do have a tough battle with getting respect from folks, but with the proper responsible breedings and the hard work of brown dog lovers they'll eventually get the respect they deserve


" How true!! When a choco earned CNFC it was a fluke, many still feel it's just a weak gene, not too different than yellows were only a handful of years ago, it will just take time and careful breeding to bring the resessive coat color up to the rest.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

kip said:


> sounds like a girlfriend for blue.


I set up a pedigree for a hypothetical breeding of Abby's Little Cooper to Blue at http://www.gooddoginfo.com/gdc/Asp/viewpedigreecolor.asp?DogNo=89003. Looks like fun.


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## TroyFeeken (May 30, 2007)

YardleyLabs said:


> I set up a pedigree for a hypothetical breeding of Abby's Little Cooper to Blue at http://www.gooddoginfo.com/gdc/Asp/viewpedigreecolor.asp?DogNo=89003. Looks like fun.


I'd stand in line for one of those pups! Looks like a very nice breeding!


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

I like to see a FC-AFC Land Ahoy (Pirate) X Abby breeding. Would be a great outcross for almost all current lines of Chocolates.


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## JDHasty (Oct 31, 2007)

FC Abby's Little Cooper is out of one of my breedings. I was going to keep her for myself but let her go to Mike Nugent who in turn sold her to steven Abouaf. I tried to breed Elsie to Cooper a couple more times, but by that time his sperm was not reliable. I did manage to breed him to Hasty's Bower Lake Twiggy (Bower Lake Ben x Bower Lake Breeze) and have one of those and she is a hell of a bitch. I did manage to breed Elsie to Trip - Ten Bears Road Trip a couple of months ago and those look like pretty darn nice pups at this stage of the game.


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## JDHasty (Oct 31, 2007)

By the way, Abbey did not come "out of nowhere" as a lot of people who don't know what they are talking about have said. 

She is out of Hasty's Elsie Smith and that breeding was done specifically to get a chocolate factored "Cosmo" pup for myself to breed back to chocolate with. 

Elsie's Dam, Hasty's Annie Oakley, was one of the first bitches bred to Barracuda Blue, she may have been the first, that breeding produced Bower Lake Ben who in turn produced Chocline's Spitfire and Chocline's Cigar and a heck of a lot of more top performers in Canada. 

M&M's Cooper is out of some of the same lines that the guys from Anchorage have been breeding contenders from for decades. Dogs from Anchorage run in the Pacific NW and if you can stay in it here you have a darn good dog. End of story.

Cooper was the only chocolate in an otherwise black litter and was not related to any of the other chocolate lines that were worth looking at back in the late 90's when Mark Clark and I first met. 

Prior to meeting Mark and breeding to Cooper I had been flying my dogs all over North America to breed them.

Unfortunately for the breeding community, not many of these "Cooper pups" went to trial or hunt test homes. They are all over the Pacific Northwest though, I bred four or five different bitches to him and probably got 50 or 60 pups. I would have to check my records. 

I sold them mostly to avid hunters and have seen plenty of them in the field and there are some truly exceptional ones among them including my wife's three year old.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I've got to watch Abby run from derby on and i'll take a dozen "untalented chocolate" dogs like that. My gosh all this heat over what color the dog is. I find it humorous, I mean come on people its not like we're talking some foo foo golden or something....

/Paul


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## George C. Tull (Aug 25, 2006)

JDHasty said:


> I did manage to breed Elsie to Trip - Ten Bears Road Trip a couple of months ago and those look like pretty darn nice pups at this stage of the game.


Ten Bears Road Trip='Tick' they call him. Short for 'Ticket'. 
Got a pup sired from him & the Nuggent's 'Gotta' female. And your right....my 'Trip' pup, I call him, is coming along VERY nicely. I attend some of the HT's and not too familiar with the FT game but, I'd put money on the fact that some of the FT'ers would love to get hold of him (wink).
No offense on the correction there JD.


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## JDHasty (Oct 31, 2007)

No offense taken. I have been breeding chocolates since the early 90's and will let my record for success stand on it's own. Jack Johnston drove to Tacoma to pick up Bower Lake Ben after visiting Gonia's McKenna Kennels and seeing Hasty's Annie Oakley. If I am not mistaken that was before Cuda was titled. Go ahead and take a look at the record his pups have stacked up in Canada. 

My MO has been to talk to people who traveled the country running trials to locate top stud dogs and to compare notes with people like Bill & Cleo Watson, I live just down the road from Gonia and know a lot of the players. 

When Cooper was alive he came down from Alaska was right here and Mark Clark turned down 90% of the breeding requests he got. I think I probably did most of the breedings done to him, but I was still shipping dogs all over to breed to others. I didn't breed to him because he was local, I bred to him because I was getting absolute hunting machines. Most of the Cooper breedings were snapped up by very serious local hunters. Most of them also point, by the way. 

I am a serious upland hunter and my dogs are trained to hunt close and flush, no pointing allowed, because I hunt tangles that are so heavy I cannot see the dogs most of the time. I hunt 4 to six dogs at a time, the dogs wear different bells and although it works for me - I do not recommend it. You need lightning quick reflexes, a five and a half pound gun and shoes you can run through broken land in when the bird runs before flushing. 

Getting back to Jack Johnston, we have traded dogs back and forth and stay in close communication. He bred Bower Lake Ben into his stock - line bred on Rippin Blue Thunder lines and to others in Canada and those breedings produced the Wisconsin Open Pheasant Champion and #9 of 960 at the US Open Pheasant Championships (before being killed at under two years old by a car), Chocline's Spitfire and Chocline's Cigar and more than a few that ran up a bunch of points in Canada. 

So Abbey didn't "come out of nothing" and I truly resent the buffoons who spread this rumor. I purposely bred Hasty's Annie Oakley to Cosmo in order to further juice up what I already had and did it with the intention of breeding a chocolate factored black from that breeding back to the best chocolate or chocolate factored sire I could locate. Along came Cooper and I started breeding him into my stock and the results were exactly what I was looking for. I had already made a commitment to breed Elsie to another dog when I met Mark so I waited and the next year in my first breeding of him to Elsie I personally selected and was planning to keep Abbey and have Gonia train and run her for me. 

Mike Nugent called me about this time and let me know that he had a pup w/bad hips (the only one I have ever sold) and I felt so bad I gave him Abbey with knowledge that I had hand picked this dog to do great things and my only request upon handing her over is that I have right of first refusal of a future bitch pup out of her and that she not be "wasted." 

Mike was overwhelmed at the time and subsequently transfered ownership to Steven Aboauf who planned to have her professionally trained as a hunting dog. That didn't bother me because I don't judge a dog by how many ribbons it can gather. Aboauf took her to Henninger for gun dog training and the rest is history. 

Abbey came out of the Derby and at just over two years put together a couple of wins right off the bat. I am not sure, but it would not surprise me if she is the youngest chocolate FC ever. 

So she actually did for me what I had planned for her to do since I set out on this effort that took six years and that whole effort was prove that my chocolate dogs could BEAT the best blacks in the Northwest and therefore the world. 

The fact that I don't own her is immaterial, what matters is that our kennel got the recognition it deserves. So in the future if someone wants to comment on where she came from you can say that Dan Hasty of Tacoma WA, the late Terry Olson of Sun Valley ID and Mark Clark of Hoods Canal WA worked together to to do a series of breedings that would produce chocolates that can compete and win anywhere. 

None of my pups came out of nowhere, the breedings were planned for a specific purpose in mind. And let me reiterate that it offends me for others who don't know the whole story to say otherwise. 

Greatness does not rely on happenstance and if you take the time to look at what my program has produced the record is not one of one great dog that came out of nowhere.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Dan,

Had the privledge of training with & competing against Phil MacMillan and "Fire" over the last 2 years. She was a very fine animal. For those that do not know, FTCH AFTCH Chocline's Spitfire had 31 junior points, 51 ALL age points (6 wins) and to my knowledge was the ONLY Chocolate bitch to finish a National. Besides that she handled geese very well & was a bed hog, so I was told.

Dan as we have talked about in the past there are others that share your quest to produce a better brown dog. They have a plan, are patient, and realize somtimes ya gotta go black.
At this persent time I have a chocolate factored bitch sired by FC "IZZY" (Lean Mac x Bebe, full sister to Lottie) 
FC AFC "Chavez" sired black male that carries Chocolate & yellow out of a FC AFC "Tiger McBunn x NAFC "Cropper" bitch.

Also on the way are a litter of Chocolate Factored blacks. These will be special. Can not recall the last time a Black bitch with any trial title (AFTCH)(sired by NFC "Prize") was bred to a Chocolate stud.
http://www.gooddoginfo.com/gdc/asp/viewpedigree.asp?DogNo=88972

Hopefully we can make competitive choclate trial dogs the norm rather than an after thought. 

John
________
wiki vaporizer


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Well, I've added some chocolate factored NFC Chopper pups to the mix. Bred him to a FC AFC Quick bitch and all but one of the puppies were choc factored.

I just bred that same bitch to CFC Gunner so now there is some new chocolate lines on the West Coast.

WRL


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## JDHasty (Oct 31, 2007)

I am holding out hoping that the Elsie x Tick black pup I have left attracts interest locally so I have him to watch, but as long as he goes to a home where he will remain intact ...


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

JDHasty said:


> I am holding out hoping that the Elsie x Tick black pup I have left attracts interest locally so I have him to watch, but as long as he goes to a home where he will remain intact ...


As a pup, why would your main concern be that he remain intact? 
Is it simply because he is chocolate factored?
If so, that may explain some of the problems you see with Chocolates, as other breeders look for characteristics such as marking, biddability, genetic soundness, titles, etc.; not color, as their main concern when selecting breeding candidates.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

MJH345,

Let's look at Dan's statement...locally so I have him to watch. Most likely so he can determine if the breeding produced the traits he was looking for. Thinking if you fully read Dan's previous posts, he covers his bases as far as quality.

JK
________
Honda CB250F


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## yukonriverriley (Aug 15, 2007)

It seems to me that JDHasty is saying the pup is a very nice dog and because of that AND the fact that he is chocolate factored he feels it would be a valuable addition to the gene pool. Note the AND, not an OR...I think these personal attacks on individuals are getting a little silly, you don't know the guy, what he's bred, how much he knows, etc, and I highly doubt that getting on his case about breeding dogs for the wrong reason (which you don't really know one way or the other) is going to change what he's doing so why bother picking a fight?


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## JDHasty (Oct 31, 2007)

I am concerned that he remain intact because I have not yet figgured out a way to get a neutered dog breed to my female dogs, smart guy. I don't do frozen breedings.

Depending on how this pup turns out, I may be interested in breeding one of my bitches to him in the future. As I said above: I don't judge dogs I breed to exclusively based upon how many ribons they have stacked up. For some (most) people - since that is all they are capable of judging a dog based on, it naturally follows that if they are to breed their bitch it is makes sense for them to consider breeding only to dogs that others have judged. The easiest and safest way for them to do this is to look at the dog's record in head to head competition. If one can make an accurate assessment ones self then one has greated latitude in selecting a stud dog based upon the dog's qualities. 

If you ever get a chance to talk to Mark Clark you will find out that he was up in Anchorage training with the group from up there and was in search of a first rate Field Trial pup and wasn't particularly concerned with any thing else. He bought Cooper based upon the qualities of the sire and dam over other pups that were available that were out of titled dogs on both sides. Don't get me wrong Cooper has a fair number of titled dogs in his back ground but his parents are local Anchorage hunting/hunt test dogs that were not run in Field Trials. 

Hunt test titles do tell you that the dog is trainable but I will quote my friend Jim Ginia regarding what a hunt test title alone with no personal knowledge of the dog tells you - "Give me enough money and time and I could take a house cat and make it into a senior hunter." In head to head competition a dog may pick up a few points it doesn't deserve, but to be able to out perform the competition often enough to become titled, in front of various judges does allow one to take it for granted that the dog is a particularly fine animal without being able to make an HONEST and ACCURATE assessment on one's own regarding the dog's qualities. 

When Mark showed up in the Tacoma area with Cooper we got together after I saw him training on Fort lewis and went over and introduced myself. Cooper was a young dog and when I started breeding to him all I had to go on was what I saw in him. I was flying my dogs around the country breeding to such titled dogs as Larry Calvert's dog Rascal or breeding them locally to hot shot hunting dogs based upon what i was looking to acheive in the breeding but the decision was based upon the the dog and the dog's parents qualities. 

I think five or six years ahead and want to keep my eye on this pup and if he turns out have him available to breed back into some of my other stock.


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## Ken Archer (Aug 11, 2003)

Wow!! JD you are a man after my own heart.



JDHasty said:


> Depending on how this pup turns out, I may be interested in breeding one of my bitches to him in the future. As I said above: I don't judge dogs I breed to exclusively based upon how many ribons they have stacked up. For some (most) people - since that is all they are capable of judging a dog based on, it naturally follows that if they are to breed their bitch it is makes sense for them to consider breeding only to dogs that others have judged. The easiest and safest way for them to do this is to look at the dog's record in head to head competition. If one can make an accurate assessment ones self then one has greated latitude in selecting a stud dog based upon the dog's qualities.
> 
> I think five or six years ahead and want to keep my eye on this pup and if he turns out have him available to breed back into some of my other stock.


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

amen. my feelings exactly.


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

WOW!!! JD you're a genius!! The points you've made have been the best that I have read.

Cory


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

I just want to bring this back up in the forum. I just got back from Rorem's workshop and I had the pleasure of seeing a choco lab run some of Rorem's test. I said to myself that I would never get a choco lab again, but after I seeing this choco lab run, I am considering getting one *if* a pup comes along at the right time from this bitch. I believe her name is Jazz. I think she is only 3 or 4 years old, but she was blowing fire, excellent marker, and run one of the straightest blind of the group. She was the only one to lined the blind in a keyhole blind w/ 1 whislle while she was stepping on the bird

Angelo


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## Boondux (Feb 10, 2006)

That would be Jim Hurst's Jazz. I have a pup out of her sibling, Penny. Jazz is a very nice dog and I know she'll make it to the top!

www.pinehurstretrievers.com is the website...


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Yap, that's her. She also have that white spot on her chest like my first lab.

Angelo


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

Bill Watson said:


> mjh345 said:
> 
> 
> > No, I was the stupid one. I didn't train with ducks and the first mark was a shot fl yer. When sent, candy went straight to the bird, blinked it, made a big loop, blinked it again, made another loop and blinked it a third time. I commented "Three blinks are enough" John Parrot (the judge) merely said "One was enough" Long time ago. Bill
> ...


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

JDHasty said:


> I am holding out hoping that the Elsie x Tick black pup I have left attracts interest locally so I have him to watch, but as long as he goes to a home where he will remain intact ...


On the puppy ad you have Tick listed as the #2 chocolate derby dog, but I think #3 is a better rank. 

Nitram Bull Market 35 pts

Barracuda Blue 29 AKC & 7 CKC

Ten Bear's Road Trip 29 pts


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Now that this topic has jumped back to the top of the list I have a question for the many knowledgeable choco people here? Give me your top 3 living choco studs HT or FT?


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## Tom H. (May 17, 2005)

Lance - CO 

Jazz is a littermate to my Jax - Sure wish I would have been more apt to run FT than HT's when I got him . , Better yet sure wish I could've afforded a PRO . The boy has talent too, just a Dumba$$ Handler 
________
S-10


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Trent,

What is the criteria for being at the "top" ??
________
ipod games


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

For living chocolate studs I'd say:

Gunner titled
walker AA pointed
Tick QAA Derby list

Any of the QAA chocolates


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

Jay, Greene, Lewis and Associates only has 10 boarding runs for dogs. I counted them, 18 just sounded like too many! They have a repro surgery that is first class. Wouldn't mind being operated in there myself if necessary (but not for repro), less chance of infection than in the hospitals lately!

I'm glad to see so many interesting people getting their knickers all waded up about brown dogs. When Candy ran that Derby years ago the only other Chocolate on the grounds was "Bully"- Nitram's Bull Market running Qualifying. Once again, long time ago.

To those that berate brown dogs, you should have seen them back then! Carob Come A'praising and just a few dogs were around at that time here in the South East. There are many more around now thanks to a bunch of thick skinned folks that "just loved those Brown dogs. Ask Richard H, about it. Mary Howley had Cash on the Line and loaned him to us to have him collected and I just loved him as a house guest. Ronnie's Roux fell into the same category, but I had gotten old and I couldn't play as rough with him as Ronnie could.

You folks that belittle brown dogs may not have run into other colors that you fell in love with the way we have with these old recessive gened dogs the way we have. I have had black dogs and yellow dogs, but none of them got under my skin like these old retards have. Texas Gentleman was just here for collection and he is a love too, just spoiled. Baby Blue is just black on the outside (really is a VERY Dark Chocolate, don't tell him different). 

Just have fun with your dogs, no matter what the color (even Goldens and Chessies too). That is what God put them here for and to sooth our stressed out lives. I'm sure glad that Bill Clinton had Buddy neutered though, neither needed to be in the gene pool. Bill
________
Live Sex Webshows


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Bill Watson said:


> Jay, Greene, Lewis and Associates only has 10 boarding runs for dogs. I counted them, 18 just sounded like too many! They have a repro surgery that is first class. Wouldn't mind being operated in there myself if necessary (but not for repro), less chance of infection than in the hospitals lately!
> 
> I'm glad to see so many interesting people getting their knickers all waded up about brown dogs. When Candy ran that Derby years ago the only other Chocolate on the grounds was "Bully"- Nitram's Bull Market running Qualifying. Once again, long time ago.
> 
> ...


Bill,
Tex was even more spoiled by you when you fed him king cake off of a fork!....LOL He's still a pretty good ole boy though, and a handsome devil too!


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

What’s the big deal? I just don’t get the obsession with color, be it black, yellow, or chocolate. Having a favorite is one thing, but geeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzz!!!! I happen to have a favorite color myself, and heaven forbid, it’s NOT chocolate. I can see some of you totally flippin out over that statement coming from me, but that’s just the way it is. Now if you ask what color my favorite dog is, that’s totally different. 

One more comment about the chocos and competition. Some have implied or outright said that the chocos haven’t had a fair shake when being judged. It was a choco that drug me into the field trial madness about 3 years ago, and on the average, I believe he has received exactly what he deserved. That’s about the best that anyone could hope for. I’ll bet there are a lot of handlers of blacks that think they haven’t been placed as high as they thought they should have been. It’s just a given when being judged subjectively.

Dog to the line!
Frank


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

John my critera would be living, chocolate, and accomplishemnts in primarily the FT stakes, secondarily HT stakes, health clearences, and looks.


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Tom H. said:


> Lance - CO
> 
> Jazz is a littermate to my Jax - Sure wish I would have been more apt to run FT than HT's when I got him . , Better yet sure wish I could've afforded a PRO . The boy has talent too, just a Dumba$$ Handler


I have no doubt that choco lab is going to be at least FC/AFC the way she ran last weekend.

Angelo


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## dcr (May 31, 2006)

Richard, for chocolate derby dogs I would ad 

Shaddow - Top Derby dog
Fire - 34 derby points 

also, brink's chocolate candy had a number of derby points- there was an rftn ad which stated she was the top derby pointed chocolate female--can't remember the actual number.


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

dcr said:


> Richard, for chocolate derby dogs I would ad
> 
> Shaddow - Top Derby dog
> Fire - 34 derby points
> ...



I am aware of the other dogs but how do you equate the dogs that only have dead bird marks with the live flier and gun shots that cause a fair amount of problems for the some dogs.


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## dcr (May 31, 2006)

I understand what you stating about the dead bird marks vs live fliers, however, the hunt areas varies for a flier vs a dead bird. You would take that in to account also ? 

I forgot Magnum force had 36 Junior points also....


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Here is my list by AA point talley which may NOT be up to date. Did not include HT Titles, because my personal belief/experience is if they can get AA points they would HT Title if trained/campaigned, I understand some have HT Titles already. I have seen all except Gunner & Bingo. Have talked with all owners except Steve (Bingo) & Frank (Roux) As far as health Clearences those can be checked at OFA etc. As far as production, most of these dogs have not been bred all that much or their offspring are not old enuf to pass judgement on their potency as a sire. I will fill in some info. on Walker and would truly welcome additional info from owners of theses dogs as far as production of dogs with trial placements. 

CFC Gunner don't know exact # of AA points

Walker 17 1/2 AA points, CNM, EIC, CERF clear, OFA Hips(EX), Elbows Clear, 15 breedings lifetime, only bred to 1 MH/QAA bitch which produced SH HT Titled & 1 QAA @ 22 months. 

Chance 13 AA points last I knew

Java 12 AA points last I knew

Bingo 11 1/2 AA points Last I knew

Winston 5 AA points last I knew

Roux 3 1/2 AA points, Frank Correct me if I'm wrong 

DID NOT list any of the MANY QAA or deby pointed living Chocolate as their are many and QAA & 100 derby points don' always equate to AA points, there are some nice young ones and time will tell. We can only hope and wish their owners Good Luck !!! I'm pulling for you !!
________
FJ40


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> I am aware of the other dogs but how do you equate the dogs that only have dead bird marks with the live flier and gun shots that cause a fair amount of problems for the some dogs.


Richard, are you saying that there are pups that have placed in derbies and have not been exposed or don't have enough live fliers and gunshot experience??? That is kinda hard to believe IMHO. Either the pup was a natural or the handlers carried his pup that his/her pup will place or win a derby without enough experience w/ live fliers and gunshots.


Angelo


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

What I am saying it's hard to compare Canadian trials vs AKC when the trials in Canada use all dead birds.


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> What I am saying it's hard to compare Canadian trials vs AKC when the trials in Canada use all dead birds.


Oh, I didn't know that in the Canadian trials that they don't use any live fliers. I see your point now


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> *Roux 3 1/2 AA points*, Frank Correct me if I'm wrong


I think it's 2 1/2 - an Open 3rd and 4th and two Am 4ths, but can't swear to that. Remember, Roux just turned 4 in Dec 07. I would be the last to make a prediction, but he has all the tools to title. Time will tell. Running him is like driving a sports car; scares the crap out of you, but it sure is fun!

fp


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Frank by my talley, you got the Open 3rd when you had Amat. status, so that equates to 1 point towards the Open Title and 1 point towards the Amat Title. Correct ?

Frank I wish you and Roux nothing but the best. Completely understand what your feeling for the last 5 years I have been fortunate enough to get 8 seconds on a BRAHMA BULL every time I go to the line. I donated $20,000.oo to the Rorem retirement fund getting him to slow down.

John
________
dispensaries


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## Bayou Magic (Feb 7, 2004)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Frank by my talley, you got the Open 3rd when you had Amat. status, so that equates to 1 point towards the Open Title and 1 point towards the Amat Title. Correct ?
> 
> Frank I wish you and Roux nothing but the best. Completely understand what your feeling for the last 5 years I have been fortunate enough to get 8 seconds on a BRAHMA BULL every time I go to the line. I donated $20,000.oo to the Rorem retirement fund getting him to slow down.
> 
> John


John, you are right about the open 3rd.

Thanks, and best of luck to you...

fp


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

I find it odd when talking about great chocolate dogs to leave out one that won the National Open.

I think Rascal has gotten a bad rap due to the fact that he did win the Open and many thought he shouldn't have won it. But remember he WAS an FC when he won the Natl Open, and he also was a finalist in it a few years later.

He was a very fine dog that unfortunately didn't produce a lot of titled offspring, other than Quick.

And no Kip, he wasn't a Tater, but there were not many of her what ever the color.

As for now, I'm happy to be running the living Roux along with Frank.


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## Misty Marsh (Aug 1, 2003)

Tim, very true! Part of that whole deal may be the national win circumstances, or the CNM. How many FT points did he end up with, anyone know?


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

I have one of Rascal's grandsons - there's probably hundreds out there. I've heard all the color biases before, but I really have to tell you my 1-1/2 yr old is a great dog. His lineage is heavily titled on both sides. I wouldn't give him up for the world. I work and have two small boys - so that doesn't leave me enough time and money to compete in all the venues and get a ton of titles. I also am not a breeder. I run in the NAHRA because I want to train my dog for hunting and its fun. Maybe I just got a good one, maybe I just don't know any better - but your going to have a tough time convincing me that another dog is better based on color. Sorry for my soapbox stand and regards to all.


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## Marilyn Fender (Sep 3, 2005)

Please see my reply about Rascal on the other thread with his name on it.

This thread amazes me with the bad information and assumptions about color.
Glad to see that there are some that are countering the old myths with good information.
Congratulations to people who have sound information and can speak well about it. 

Sorry to see that some people think they have to bring up old bad information and myths about chocolates. 

From the length of this thread it seems that people are still sorting out truth from reality regarding chocolates. 

I don't have time to repeat my whole post I put in the other thread, so go look.

Marilyn Fender
owner of 
NFC AFC Storm's Riptide Star 
and his co-owned chocolate son bred by Marilyn
CNAFC CFC Quik Windstorm


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Its not just chocolates Mariylin, it was just their turn this week. Thanks for stopping it before they had him hard mouthing all the birds and humping Lardy's leg at the line. He was a great dog and deserves to be remembered that way.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Having owned what was probably the first MH chocolate bitch ("Bully's P.Y.T.", out of Haverhill's Jet Jennifer by Nitram Bull Market) back in 1988, I have a certain fondness for chocolates, especially the mahogany brown ones....the ones that, when they come out of the water, can sit next to a wet black dog and you can't tell _which_ one is the chocolate! 

As John Fallon puts it, "a good dog is a good dog." Anyone who judges a dog by its _color_ *or* _breed_ is demonstrating a tendancy toward canine racism, the kind that has no place in our dog world (or racism in _any_ world, but that's not the subject here). The BLOOD makes the dog; DNA makes the colors. The rest is mostly up to who owns the dog and who trains it. My 2 cents, anyway.....

Having read this whole thread, I can separate the BS from the buckwheat, like most all of you can, and here's the only statement that really gets me going:

_



The facts are very clear in the field trail game though. there have been a few sucessfull field trial labs that are or were brown. there has been less than a few that were more than common in the field trial game. *Definition of common from my stand is alot of dogs in field trials that through out there lives gain enough points to title.* This is common in field trials.

Click to expand...

_Before I go off on this, does this statement mean that a dog that doesn't title until X age (6...8...10....????) is *common*? Is this meant to be derogatory? 'Cause it _sure_ doesn't sound like a compliment! And the statement "_there has been less than a few that were more than common in the field trial game_"....what does this mean? That all the chocolates that never titled in field trials were common?

Wanting to understand regards,

kg


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## greg ye (Nov 28, 2007)

Jay Dufour said:


> I was at the reproductive specialist Wednesday and they had 18 Chocolates in for AI and or natural breedings.Thought that was rather interesting.............


This Choco thread is ridiculous. It's like watching black on black violence on the nightly news. Makes a lot of sense? It's embarassing to see Marilyn Fender having to defend an NFC. The core to the issue is the public's interest in yellow, chocolate, silver, white, snow, fox-red, etc. to the detriment of black. Profit driven puppy mills prey on consumer demand with no respect for the end product.


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

It was not my intent to direspect any one with that comment KG but the fact is there have been hundreds of dogs that have titled over the span of there lives how many of them were brown. Trust me I know the number of brown dogs running is only a fraction of the black dogs but there is a black dog earning a title weekly somewere throught the trial season this is common. I have no reason to bash brown dogs because I am currently running one myself.
________
CHEVROLET LUMINA Z34 SPECIFICATIONS


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## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Here is my list by AA point talley which may NOT be up to date. Did not include HT Titles, because my personal belief/experience is if they can get AA points they would HT Title if trained/campaigned, I understand some have HT Titles already. I have seen all except Gunner & Bingo. Have talked with all owners except Steve (Bingo) & Frank (Roux) As far as health Clearences those can be checked at OFA etc. As far as production, most of these dogs have not been bred all that much or their offspring are not old enuf to pass judgement on their potency as a sire. I will fill in some info. on Walker and would truly welcome additional info from owners of theses dogs as far as production of dogs with trial placements.
> 
> CFC Gunner don't know exact # of AA points
> 
> ...


 
John, 

Last year (2007) Gunner received an Open & Amateur Win, Amateur 4th and several Jams with me training and handling him.


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

Hey Greg, 
I knew of those placings....Call me a FAN, short for Fanatic...aka Psycho, nutcase, stalker etc. did not want to short change you. What's his Point total for north of the Border ?? 10 Open and thought we discussed that you had a couple of 2nd's did not remember if they were in the Open or the Am.

John


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## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> Hey Greg,
> I knew of those placings....Call me a FAN, short for Fanatic...aka Psycho, nutcase, stalker etc. did not want to short change you. What's his Point total for north of the Border ?? 10 Open and thought we discussed that you had a couple of 2nd's did not remember if they were in the Open or the Am.
> 
> John


John, 

His Canadian AA pts are 23. After he received his FTCH title (10 pts) we got four 2nd placements. 

I need a win in the Amateur or Open for his AFTCH. 

My goal with the chocolate boy this year is to get 1.5 pts to run the US National Amateur this year and to try and finish his titles out here in the US.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Ok, I'll confess, I love chocolates! 

Or, at least this one! 




















I've kept this secret way too long.......


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

OK Susan...Spill who is he, what's the story ?

P.S. Forgot Bubba owned by Tim & Tami Thompsom Think Bubba had a couple of 2nd's with Andy or Paul


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> OK Susan...Spill who is he, what's the story ?
> 
> P.S. Forgot Bubba owned by Tim & Tami Thompsom Think Bubba had a couple of 2nd's with Andy or Paul


Rusty - I co-own him. He has derby points and Q placements. He's now wintering with Andy with the rest of my gang. (Except Ruckus is ruckusing with Jim Van Engen). Learning to become an AA dog, I hope. After the Q placements, I stopped running him to just focus on his AA training. I've gotten to where that I feel they can get just as QAA'd jamming an AA stake. (Not that I won't run one, it's just not a priority, and can sometimes be a logistical nightmare if you're running dogs in AA stake and minor stakes.). I raised Rusty as a puppy, fell in love with him. I always have told him that he's the most beautiful shade of black! And, I never show him a mirror! He's the second chocolate in 7 generations (his sire is yellow, and dam was black), and grandpa is actually Westwind's Bold Tiger.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

DRAKEHAVEN said:


> P.S. Forgot Bubba owned by Tim & Tami Thompsom Think Bubba had a couple of 2nd's with Andy or Paul


Bubba just needs his win, I believe! Bubba is my second favorite chocolate dog!


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