# Passion, Commitment, Mastery, and Elegance



## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Without fail, at some point in time, a thread emerges whose essence is "what I do is superior to what you do." 

Consider the following comments:

- My field trial dog is more skilled than your hunt test dog
- My hunting dog has more natural talent than your field trial dog
- There is more satisfaction in training a dog yourself and competing than in competing with a pro trained dog
- I am a better person because I don’t wash out my dogs and you do
- I am a better person because my dogs sleep at the foot of my bed, and yours sleep in kennels at a pro’s place


All of these statements are a way of a person saying "I am better than you ..."


Don’t you get tired of all this nonsense? I know I do. 


There are a few statements that have surfaced recently that I find particularly narrow minded and troublesome. For example, consider this often made statement:


*People who run Field Trials with pro trained dogs are only interested in collecting ribbons or status.*


At least for me, nothing could be further from the truth.


I am engaged in Field Trials because of my pursuit of *passion, elegance, and mastery.*


When I become involved in a something, I want to know everything about it. I read about it, I study it, I speak with experts about it, I become immersed in it. 


At one point in my life, I wanted to become a great trial lawyer. I went to schools that specialized in trial tactics. I took great trial lawyers to lunch and dinner and asked them about what they did and why. They offered me great insight and advice because they recognized the passion I had for the profession. I went to courtrooms and watched these men perform their craft. 

As a consequence of my passion and commitment to the law, when I was still quite new to the profession, Ford Motor Company sent me off to Columbia, Tennessee to try the first Ranger Rollover case in the country. 


For the past fifteen years, I have taught trial tactics to young lawyers across the country for the National Institute of Trial Advocacy and passed on the lessons my mentors gave me. In my practice of law, I found that passion and commitment yielded mastery, and mastery provided moments of elegance.

Although my passion for the law has waned as my commitment to the dogs has increased, I still experience delight in the courtroom when I am able to express my mastery of the craft through a perfectly executed impeachment of a key witness or a well timed objection. 

That joy in my mastery comes whether I win or lose. 


I say this because I am going through a similar process with the dogs.


My dog library contains all sorts of books. I have materials from Lardy, Loveland, Dobbs, and Milan. I have books from Tarrant, Spencer, Hillman. I have books on clicker training and collar training. I have tapes and/or DVD’s from Mertens, Carr, Lardy, Cleveland, and Wolters. I have attended seminars by Mike Lardy and Dave Rorem. 


I have trained with Judy Aycock, Danny Farmer, Bill Eckett, Dave Rorem, Cherylon Loveland, and scores of other people. Just as I did when I was a young lawyer, I took these folks out for dinner and asked them about dogs, handling, and training. And just as before when I was a young lawyer seeking out the masters, these folks recognized my passion for the dogs and offered me tremendous insight and advice.


I do not train my dogs. That work is performed by either Cherylon Loveland or Dave Rorem. In part, that is because I do not have the inclination to do so. In part, that is because I do not have the time to do so. Instead, I have focused my efforts on learning how to read and handle my dogs.


When I come to the line, I am not looking to crush the test. I am not looking to win a field trial. I am looking to perform some very discrete tasks with my dogs. What those tasks are, vary with the dog.


In broad terms, I focus on:

Getting to the line
Getting recognition of the birds
Providing the dogs with cues as each bird falls
Sending the dog with proper timing and voice inflection

My specific concerns are more discrete. For one dog, my primary focus may be line manners, or head swinging. For another, it may be lining and cueing the dog for the big punch bird. For each of my dogs, before each field trial, I have written a list of the things I want to work on. When my dogs do well on my worklist, I am pleased.


I find it curious that people who contend that I - and others like me -do this only for the ribbons often say that getting a green ribbon is like kissing your sister. Or that at the end of the field trial there are only four happy people, the people who got blue ribbons. Because that is not at all my experience.


I still remember when Ace finished his first Open and got a Jam. I was happy because both he and I were able to keep it together for four series. I remember two years ago when Mozzie watched all the birds down in the first series, then flubbed the punch bird. Of course, I wanted him to crush the birds. But, my task at the moment was to have him watch the birds. I was pleased when he did.


What I am pursuing is mastery of the art of handling. Being able to read each of my dogs. Being able to alter my conduct to suit their needs at the moment. Bird by bird. Series by series. When the dogs and I are working together, I am happy.


I have found that if

-You focus on the little things (stance on the mat, cadence, movement) the dog sees the birds
- If you focus on the send, the dog gets the first bird
- If you focus on the return and the sit on the mat, you get the second bird
- And so on


If you get enough birds cleanly, you finish
If you finish often enough, you place
If you place often enough, you win

If you do that consistently, you title and qualify

I have also found that when you focus on the little things (like the cue the dog gives you when he is ready to go), time slows, and your appreciation of the moment increases.


In the past two years, I have had fleeting moments when one of my dogs and I were one, and time slowed. In those moments, I had a sense of mastery and observed elegance in my dog’s work. 

*That is why I run the dogs - because of my passion for the dogs, my satisfaction in mastery (if only fleeting), and my delight in the elegance of superb dog work.*


For those of you who believe that my pursuit is driven by the need to collect ribbons, or to attain some elevated social status, I have two thoughts. 

First, projection can be a terrible thing. 
Second, you are missing a tremendous amount of joy.

Ted


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Dang Ted that was a GREAT post!!

And I hear you about being one with your dog on the line......what a feeling and you just can't explain it to people with words alone, it is a very, very STRONG emotion......one bird at a time......

Lainee, Flash and Bullet


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

I have liked the Garamond font ever since Ted Kerasote used it in _Bloodties._ (You related to him Ted? You have the same first names!) 

Which reminds me, I still have to pick up a copy of his latest bestseller _Merle's Door_, about the stray Labrador that adopted him. The relationship allows him to an in-depth examination of the human-dog bond.

Nice post Ted.


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## Lance-CO (Jan 10, 2003)

It just shows how much catching up I have to do before I face you and your dogs.  I think I have to wait 10+ more years and get 5-10 more dogs.  Thanks for the insights though. Really nice post!


Angelo


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

You obviously have a passion for what you do, lawyer jokes aside that is admirable. To me the wisdom in your post is this, if the focus is on being the best in whatever you persue the rest usually takes care of itself.


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## Ironwood (Sep 25, 2007)

Elegant confession of a student of the game. Well done!


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## ramblinmaxx (Nov 17, 2004)

Great Post, Ted

Marty


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

Very well said Ted. Amen to it all. I hope all will be able to enjoy that moment when your dog and you become one at the line and time slows...... I have enjoyed that myself.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I think the air of superiority occurs when someone’s personal passion, elegance and mastery differs with someone else’s. The criteria for success will then be different and we see the friction between people. Sometimes it comes across as superiority, sometimes as arrogance, some would say even borderline cruel. Considering the relatively low percentage of dogs that actually achieve FC/AFC titles, basing success purely on ribbons and placements will guarantee you’re missing out on something. 


/Paul


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

*Until then, I will treat them with the disregard that they deserve

Once you stop trashing Field Trials, a sport in which you no longer participate 
I will give your suggestion some thought

I suspect that John deleted the initial post because he did not like the fact that Bob Gutermouth outed him as a person who said one thing and then did another

If I wanted enlightment, it would never be from John or you.

If you had bothered to read this thread**********************************************************

All of these statements were written by Ted in the past couple of days and they all have a way of saying I'm better than you. So though the post is well written and a good read it appears to be somewhat hypocritical in my opinon.


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Good post Ted. 

As a trainer/handler, teaching an animal to be competitive at the extreme level required in field trial competition and being successful is my passion and obsession and goal. 

As a hunter, true mastery and elegance to me is watching a skilled, passionate and obsessed retriever hunt wild pheasant or chase down a crippled and diving duck.


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Ted,

That's a great post! Absolutely wonderful in fact.
Many folks should be able to gleam many pointers as to "WHY" we pursue this game.

You can now take the rest of the year off... as I doubt you will be able to best this post.

Very, very well said and thought out. Happy New Year!


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## Chad Wilson (Feb 5, 2003)

Nice Post Ted. I admire your dedication to your animals. This post shows why you have had great success. 

Best of luck in 08


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Field trial success is a function of many things .
Having a good dog, knowing how to train dogs for the field trials, having good grounds and luck high on the list. 

Handling falls somewhere down the list. The better the dog and the better it is trained the further down the list in my estimation.
A handler can screw up even a good dog that is well trained , but I don't believe that they can do much for a poor or poorly trained one .

So the validity for the premise of this thread hinges on how much credit belongs to a person who simply buys a dog that another has selected to keep for training and then has trained to point of AA readiness.

You all can decide for yourself, but in *my* estimation it is not as large of a factor as some would want you to believe.

john


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## kip (Apr 13, 2004)

john fallon said:


> Field trial success is a function of many things .
> Having a good dog, knowing how to train dogs for the field trials, having good grounds and luck high on the list.
> 
> Handling falls somewhere down the list. The better the dog and the better it is trained the further down the list in my estimation.
> ...


 john i thought to be successful you had to be a celeberty.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

kip said:


> john i thought to be successful you had to be a celeberty.



Now _that_ was funny! :BIG:

Hope I didn't offend anyone by getting a chuckle out of that regards, ;-)

kg


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

kip said:


> john i thought to be successful you had to be a celeberty.


kip, 
This is what I said: _"__Some dogs make it to the second series with marginal work because of who they are.
_
_Then, given this second bite at the apple they then have the talent to do flawless work for the rest of the trial.

Celebrity status is the reason that* a lot of good dogs* look *great *on paper."
_


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Field trial success is a function of many things


John

That you would glean this out of my post, shows how little you understand what motivates me.

Ted


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> John
> 
> That you would glean this out of my post, shows how little you understand what motivates me.
> 
> Ted


Puting *you* aside for the moment, generally speaking, how much credit should the handler syphon off of a set of excelent marks from a great dog.

john


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## Chris S. (Dec 15, 2004)

Ted your post gives encouragement to everyone who has the The Passion no matter what dog game they pursue and where they are on the learning curve. Thank you.

As my best friend likes to tell me – “You spot it, you got it”


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

John, for discussion purposes I would say that it is 50/50 but there are exceptions. Larry Whartons Zipper did it on his own. Shake & Jake III did it on his own. There are more but they are exceptions. It really is a team effort. Greg


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

John, to quote our MIA-but-well-remembered Lisa Van Loo: "IT DEPENDS."

I've seen dogs run _great_ sets of TOUGH marks with the handler appearing to use no cues, body movement, or any other visual effort at all at the line, from the time they hit the mat to the time they receive the last bird. I've seen some handlers on the same test switch sides on the dog, reheel the dog, point out all the birds multiple times before the guns go down then do it again on each bird retrieved, ON THE SAME SET OF MARKS, and the dog did a job equal to the first dog where the handler stood stoically throughout.

Was one dog better than the other? NOT ON PAPER...on paper, they were equals as dogs (yes, I do make handler notes...;-)). Identical, ON PAPER....and at the end of the day, that's all that matters: what's ON PAPER.

Now, based on the actions of the HANDLERS, which dog did the better work?  And who defines the "greatness" of the dog? 

Before the trial starts, they are *ALL* equal regards,

kg


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Puting you aside for the moment, generally speaking, how much credit should the handler syphon off of a set of excelent marks from a great dog.
> 
> john


Actually only the handler cares about getting or not getting credit. The dog could care less



Tulsa Slim said:


> As a hunter, true mastery and elegance to me is watching a skilled, passionate and obsessed retriever hunt wild pheasant or chase down a crippled and diving duck.


If you could shoot we wouldn’t have so many cripples AND if you ever use the word “mastery or elegance” while hunting we are going to have a problem. 



I have the book on back order but cant wait until it get here

http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Shameless-Promoters-Debbie-Allen/dp/0965096556


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## Bob Gutermuth (Aug 8, 2004)

Its a team effort. Even the greatest dogs need a human to tell the judges their number, tell them when to go , and take the birds.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

That was an inspirational post to say the least. Thank you..


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I would really hope that the handler plays a roll in a dog's success because how else can I explain all the screw ups that I did that caused us to go home early?? 

I won't deny that the dog does the majority of the work and I'm always amazed at the dogs and what they can do, but I think I, as the handler, deserve more credit when we do good - when we don't do good 99.9% of the time it is MY fault not the dog.

FOM


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

While I argee a good job of handling and team work is very important to me it is 3rd on the list.

1. Good dog
2. Good training
3 Good handler

Oh yea, you can insert good luck before, in between and after all the above.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

You got my attention Ted. I liked it! 

My favorite expression when teaching was "Excellence is Expected". I even had a target up in the corner of my room with this thought in the bullseye. The title of your post -"Passion, Commitment, Mastery, and Elegance" would have made a terrific enhancement.

On at least one occasion per year, when giving sage advice, I asked my students to please stand up. Afterwards, there was always at least one student who asked, "Why were we standing?" My reply was, "Just trying to keep it from going over your heads." 

As "The Real Slim Shady" said......"Please Stand Up."


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## Paul Rainbolt (Sep 8, 2003)

Patrick Johndrow said:


> Actually only the handler cares about getting or not getting credit. The dog could care less
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess after seeing those ballet slippers on Gus the Golden at the KS pheasant opener those word seemed appropriate.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ted 

Your post is well written & to the point as one would expect from someone with your background. It is also very SELF SERVING! I have watched you post for around a year & find that all your posts meet the criteria of being well presented while not always correct. They also can be very mean at times when people have a tendency to disagree with you. You do not go into the discussion mode - you go into the "I'm going to crush you mode". I include Greg Magee's post to show what I have seen in the last year, & this only covers 2 days! So - until your ACTIONS match your WORDS you will still carry the reputation of a "RIBBON CHASER" with many whom I personally would want to have as friends.



greg magee said:


> *Until then, I will treat them with the disregard that they deserve
> 
> Once you stop trashing Field Trials, a sport in which you no longer participate
> I will give your suggestion some thought
> ...


 EGOCENTRIC covers it all!

BTW - you still owe John that apology!


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Why is it that there have to be some people that just can't understand simple requests?

Please stop the personal attacks. 

Vicky


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Passion & Elegance seem to get trumped by Committment & Mastery but what is being committed to? My question not in regard to on the line handling a dog but on the site interacting with others. HPW


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## Shayne Mehringer (Jan 3, 2003)

This is one crazy ass game we play.

Ted's post made me think about how that feeling of satisfaction comes at so many levels for so many different people, with so many goals.

I WILL NEVER EVER forget the first hunt test i ran with the great Macho Choco Dawg. No sleep for a couple days prior. Peanut bladder, cotton mouth, and as someone who had to explain to Wall Street why our public company just wasted $17MIL on software, i've never been so nervous in my life as i was the first time i ran my dog. My goal at the time - please please find the single mark, and get it close enough to me so i could catch it before it hits the ground.... FF starts next week. He passed.  Goals are so dynamic and unique, that feeling in your gut is the only thing that matters in this whole damn thing. But no one has any right to tell someone what SHOULD give them that feeling.

Ted gets it his way, as described in his post. Tulsa Slim is more into zipper masks and ball gags. It's all relative and no one has a right to pass judgement.

SM


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## ducksoup (Oct 3, 2005)

Ted said it all -- thanks for this thread -- and I'm with Vicky -- why can't we just play nice -- I don't want to see Chris have to take back his post about how things on the RTF were improving so well


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Vicky already had to relocate some posts from this thread....(pretty cool, I didn't know that was possible! ;-)) I see no reason to move the ones removed back. Although I did find the quoting of Ozzie pretty funny.

I've asked the offender(s) to back off in very plain terms today via PM.

It was not a lecture. It was very clear.

Enough's enough.

Thanks,

Chris


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Bob Gutermuth said:


> Its a team effort. Even the greatest dogs need a human to tell the judges their number, tell them when to go , and take the birds.


I agree...it's all about the "team". If the retriever has the talent to get the job done on it's own..he or she still needs a worthy handler.."working team". 

Anyway...great post, Ted. Interesting, encouraging and lots that is inspiring. To have a routine that works well and brings success in many aspects of one's life...is quite a great thing. 

One would have to say that he has chosen one of the very best to train his retrievers. If he were not so successful in his career..he might not have that option! 

Given the opportunity to spend more time training at some point, the knowledge will be there to do so. 

Judy

PS..Not to mention, that his retrievers are having the time of their lives! I have seen the Rorem truck for several days in a row...not a sad dog there .. not a tail between the legs coming to line. Now that says something about Ted's goals for his retrievers..about the quality of their daily life and training that he has chosen for them...on the way to those ribbons ! Good choice, Ted..and, again, thanks for the nice post..good reading


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## Richard Finch (Jul 26, 2006)

Good post Ted,


All the he said she said," mine is bigger than yours ". Does get old.


Richard


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## Andy Carlson (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Finch said:


> All the he said she said," mine is bigger than yours ". Does get old.
> 
> 
> Richard


Isn't that the truth????

Enjoyed your post, Ted.

Andy


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Vicky already had to relocate some posts from this thread....(pretty cool, I didn't know that was possible! ;-)) I see no reason to move the ones removed back. Although I did find the quoting of Ozzie pretty funny.
> 
> I've asked the offender(s) to back off in very plain terms today via PM.
> 
> ...


Almost bit my tongue _through_ on one of 'em..........:-x.............but I let it slide in hopes you'd get that done.

Thanks, Chris.

kg


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Some of the best reading I have experianced on this board,was when Ted was running the national. (i think it was the national)

I couldnt wait to get home every afternoon and read his accounts of the actions of Him and his dog. What a thrill it must be to have a dog of that caliber. You *all *are envied by me immensly.

I think of those posts of Teds often, just before I run in a simple hunt test, just like I did playin ball as a kid, and pretendin I was one of the greats.

Thanks Ted for your posts. I enjoy them.


Gooser


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I am opposed to the way the moderators are sanitizing the threads to only to reflect their opinions by deleting the contrary views. Lock a thread not eliminate those that are contrary to your view or eliminate the entire thread.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

> I am engaged in Field Trials because of my pursuit of *passion, elegance, and mastery.*


Handlers like Ted, have made running dogs an art form. I have only been to trials up here, watched videos etc., but watching them gives me an appreciation for the beauty of what it is - _art in motion. _

I think it was a great post. I don't know Ted, but I can say that as a new handler, it didn't make me feel unworthy, or "disregarded" or anything else. I thought he gave us a glimpse into what any artist tries to portray. Everyone looks at things differently, and FT is obviously beatiful to him.

Thats my cheesy take on it. And now I am hanging up.. Gotta go find some pigeons for my pupsters.


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## Pepper Dawg (Sep 26, 2007)

When I become involved in a something, I want to know everything about it. I read about it, I study it, I speak with experts about it, I become immersed in it. 

Ted[/QUOTE]

I feel the same way Ted! I want to know as much about my profession or hobby as there is to know. That makes it a life long quest for me. After 33 years in private practice dentistry it is still my passion to improve my clinical skills and my people skills through more Continuing Education and study clubs. I will never know it all. I believe the same is true of my hobby ( a very addictive one at that) of training dogs for hunting and dog games. My dog training library grows weekly and when I'm around folks who are involved in dog sports I'm all ears. I pick everyone's brains for those little "pearls of wisdom"! I am also willing to share what I know which may not be a lot at my current level in the Hunt Test game. I guess my point is this. We all have our reasons for playing and they are unique to each of us individually. They aren't right or wrong they just are! These dogs I hang with in training and at hunt tests have taught me alot about myself and have caused me to rethink some of the ways I do things and some of the ways I behave with others.


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## FowlDawgs (Oct 22, 2007)

Great post Ted!!

As a newbie in the field trial and hunt test games I did not whatsoever find Ted's post egotistical or self absorbing at all. 

I want to get into field trials and hunt tests not for the ribbons or accolades or anything of the sorts, the MAIN reason why I want to run them is to have special time with Mojo. Because eventually either Mojo to myself will no longer be here and when that happens the ribbons won't mean diddly. So, I would like to take what time we do have and do something that we both enjoy, have a blast doign it, and hopefully meet some outstanding people and hopefully meet new friends.

Cory

Again Ted greta post!


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> I am opposed to the way the moderators are sanitizing the threads to only to reflect their opinions by deleting the contrary views. Lock a thread not eliminate those that are contrary to your view or eliminate the entire thread.


I have to agree Richard,,,, "Here, Here".

Subjective selection of posts on a thread marked for elimination by moderators is not correct in my opinion....

But that's just my opinion and this is not my forum.... ;-)

Angie


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

In my classroom I tell my students it is a dictatorship and I am Queen, and thus their language is to be moderated at my discretion. Pisses them off too. But I win, as I teach English and they have to have my class to graduate:twisted:


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## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Angie B said:


> I have to agree Richard,,,, "Here, Here".
> 
> Subjective selection of posts on a thread marked for elimination by moderators is not correct in my opinion....
> 
> ...


I am also in agreement with Richard & Angie.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

My concern with the editing is with the contextual confusion it causes. That, and if someone decides to make an ass of themselves, it should be left up for all to see and locked/whole thread deleted if it needs to be. The potential evaporation of a memorable (to some) tome might change some attitudes.

Why can't we do it like we did not so long ago? Threaten folks with being banned.....seemed to work pretty well to me. They go over the line, they go bye-bye.

PMs from the moderators can do wonders too. That's what I meant in my post to Chris above.

Or is it just easier to "traffic cop" the threads? I can't _imagine_ that it is. Deleting comments would seem to be a PITA.

But that's just me regards, ;-)

kg


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

The idea that the national competitors have the passion for the sport makes we wonder if we are forgetting about the individual that works the trials as well as competing with marginal dogs with out the reward of going to the National. There are the unrewarded workers with or without dogs that work the trials all because of the dog work. Is there passion not as great?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> The idea that the national competitors have the passion for the sport makes we wonder if we are forgetting about the individual that works the trials as well as competing with marginal dogs with out the reward of going to the National. There are the unrewarded workers with or without dogs that work the trials all because of the dog work. Is there passion not as great?


Richard

If you read the post that started it all, I was simply responding to the statement that I - and others - pursue the sport solely for the ribbons. In my case, at least, that statement is incorrect.

I make no judgments about whether my pursuits are better or worse than anyone elses.

In fact, if you look through my posts over time, you will see that I have never taken the position that one sport should be favored over another - or that one type of dog should be favored over another. I am simply in favor of people finding joy in their activities with their dogs - in whatever that form takes.

If you are reading into my post anything more than my expression of why I do what I do with the dogs, you are mistaken.

Ted


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## Angie B (Sep 30, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> The idea that the national competitors have the passion for the sport makes we wonder if we are forgetting about the individual that works the trials as well as competing with marginal dogs with out the reward of going to the National. There are the unrewarded workers with or without dogs that work the trials all because of the dog work. Is there passion not as great?


Thankyou Richard,,,, That would be us... Working trials weekend in, weekend out. Because we love this sport so much. We don't compete in them,,, we work them. Not to mention the nationals I work because I love this sport.

Angie


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

Richard Halstead said:


> I am opposed to the way the moderators are sanitizing the threads to only to reflect their opinions by deleting the contrary views. Lock a thread not eliminate those that are contrary to your view or eliminate the entire thread.


The deleted post had nothing to do with my opinion regarding this thread. The deleted post was an out and out personal attack on a poster. Before insinuating that I am moderating to suit my opinions or beliefs, it might benefit some to contact Chris or me to "learn the facts".

Rubber necking on the freeway at the fatal accident regards,
Vicky


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## Vicky Trainor (May 19, 2003)

K G said:


> My concern with the editing is with the contextual confusion it causes. That, and if someone decides to make an ass of themselves, it should be left up for all to see and locked/whole thread deleted if it needs to be. The potential evaporation of a memorable (to some) tome might change some attitudes.
> 
> Why can't we do it like we did not so long ago? Threaten folks with being banned.....seemed to work pretty well to me. They go over the line, they go bye-bye.
> 
> ...


The deleted post did not take away anything other than a personal attack. At 5 a.m.EST, when the post was sent to Purgatory for Chris' review, it had minimal exposure. With the other posts, it seemed a shame to move the entire thread to Purgatory for Chris' review.

Threatening with banning doesn't seem to work any longer.

PMs seem to be ignored.

It seems a shame that threads would have to be deleted or locked due to one person not following the guidelines

Vicky


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Vicky Trainor said:


> The deleted post had nothing to do with my opinion regarding this thread. The deleted post was an out and out personal attack on a poster. Before insinuating that I am moderating to suit my opinions or beliefs, it might benefit some to contact Chris or me to "learn the facts".
> 
> Rubber necking on the freeway at the fatal accident regards,
> Vicky


Question - was the person being attacked contacted as to whether they wanted the post to go ahead - if they weren't then you were a de facto censor. I agree with Richard that only hearing one side of a story creates a false impression. I no longer subscribe to our local newspaper because of their BIAS. IMO some posters can handle that & return as good as they get if allowed.


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## Jerry (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm neither a fan nor an opponent of Ted Shih.

But I've watched him enough to know that when he walks to the line, his total concentration is on his dog(s). Formidable opponent, if you will. You better bring your A Game if Ted is entered.

Jerry


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

> Threatening with banning doesn't seem to work any longer.


That's because the threat has to have TEETH.



> PMs seem to be ignored.


Require that they be replied to before posting again on the thread in question or face suspension.



> It seems a shame that threads would have to be deleted or locked due to one person not following the guidelines


Some folks forget who owns the sandbox. Put the teeth back into the site's "culture of discipline and deportment" and you'll see a change, I guarantee it. What do you have to lose?

JMHO,

kg


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## mike hodge (Aug 31, 2003)

Ted: Outstanding post.


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## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Vicky Trainor said:


> The deleted post had nothing to do with my opinion regarding this thread. The deleted post was an out and out personal attack on a poster.
> Vicky


Vicky,
I wouldn't want your job. Inappropriate comments are like poor sportsmanship- hard to explain but you know it when you see it.

Tim


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Angie B said:


> Thankyou Richard,,,, That would be us... Working trials weekend in, weekend out. Because we love this sport so much. We don't compete in them,,, we work them. Not to mention the nationals I work because I love this sport.
> 
> Angie



Richard's quote didn't come through, but I'm lost on the thought prrocess here because nowhere is Ted denigrating the "average" FTer or ignoring those who work to put on the trials. He's simply expressing his passion for the sport. I don't find him to be egotistical or self-serving. He's achieved the brass ring that many strive for and he's worked hard to get there. Some will say, "Well, he hired someone else to train the dogs". So? He was smart enough to do his homework and choose the right dogs and the right people to train them. Years ago (and with more of a HT, "me and my dog" mentality) I didn't understand that. But Ted isn't just a write-a-check-to success kind of player.

Jerry has it right. I've seen Ted run a dog (& sorry J.F.-I disagree that the handler is a small part of the equation) and he's the Tiger Woods of FTs!  No motion wasted and he plays it like a calculated game of chess.

I don't have any laurels to back up posting to this thread, but I thoroughly enjoyed Ted's original post and find him on a personal basis to be (while out to win at a FT-who isn't?) a person who is genuine in his passion and who is very down to earth and helpful on a personal level with anyone who takes the time to seek his advice. He truly doesn't have a holier than thou attitude.


(I probably only posted out of anxiety-that Pats are losing! :-( )

M


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Vicky Trainor said:


> The deleted post did not take away anything other than a personal attack. At 5 a.m.EST, when the post was sent to Purgatory for Chris' review, it had minimal exposure. With the other posts, it seemed a shame to move the entire thread to Purgatory for Chris' review.
> 
> Threatening with banning doesn't seem to work any longer.
> 
> ...


Seems to me like there has beem some subjective calls here lately. One mans opinion is anothers personal attack. I'd hate to think favoritism is getting palyed here.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

> Censorship is the suppression or deletion of material, which may be considered objectionable, harmful or sensitive, as determined by a censor.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship

Was Vicky Trainor, acting as a 'defacto' censor? I don't know, I didn't read the offending post(s). Regardless, I have no objection with her, or any of the forum management, censoring posts that are '...objectionable, harmful or sensitive...' on behalf of the forum at large. That is their responsibility.

I believe that forum membership is a _priveledge_ and _not a constitutional right_. Like it or not, our membership priveledges can be revoked at the discretion of the management. The management is wise to wield that sword carefully, and a PM and a deleted post is certainly more discreet than banning an individual. But, when they do delete or ban, it is their right to do so. Somebody has to be 'uber-alpha' on a forum populated by 'alphas'.

This is not to suggest that Vicky, or anyone else in management, is just throwing their weight around for the sake of doing so. But, my experience as a site admin (FWIW) has been that there are two certainties in these situations - 1) not everybody will agree with forum management decisions, and 2) somebody will cry 'censorship'!

Of course, another alternative is no management and chaos...


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## Chad Baker (Feb 5, 2003)

Ted I look forward to competing for the national am title in Vermont against you. Hopefully we will get time to sit and have a beer and discuss some legal issues. I might get out of the excavation business and want to be a Lawyer when I grow up. I know where you are coming from when you get that feeling that everything in time is in slow motion. You would probably be better off studying dogs more and spend less time on this forum.
Chad Baker


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

[QUOTE 
What I am pursuing is mastery of the art of handling. Being able to read each of my dogs. Being able to alter my conduct to suit their needs at the moment. Bird by bird. Series by series. When the dogs and I are working together, I am happy.

In the past two years, I have had fleeting moments when one of my dogs and I were one, and time slowed. In those moments, I had a sense of mastery and observed elegance in my dog’s work. 

*That is why I run the dogs - because of my passion for the dogs, my satisfaction in mastery (if only fleeting), and my delight in the elegance of superb dog work.*
Ted[/QUOTE]


AMEN!!!!!!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Jerry said:


> I'm neither a fan nor an opponent of Ted Shih.
> 
> But I've watched him enough to know that when he walks to the line, his total concentration is on his dog(s). Formidable opponent, if you will. You better bring your A Game if Ted is entered.
> 
> Jerry


I agree Jerry. Love him or hate him, he's an opponent. A true competitor respects the opponent.

/Paul


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## Richard Halstead (Apr 20, 2005)

I reread Ted's post and I guess I misread the tone -- "I did the perfect" etc.seemed arrogant to me but now I see my error. It reminded me of sitting in the next to the owner of a national winner and hear about the greatness of the dog. Ican see the greatness without being told.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> (& sorry J.F.-I disagree that the handler is a small part of the equation)


I seem to remember "PIKE" with a nine year handler beating "Devil'' with either Dave or Mark handling.

I rest my case regards,
john


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

john fallon said:


> I seem to remember "PIKE" with a nine year handler beating "Devil'' with either Dave or Mark handling.
> 
> I rest my case regards,
> john


exception to the rule


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

if the handler really is such a small part in the game, then why do so many people spend so much energy dancing around on line to influence what their dog does? 
tell me again the need for walk ups or other requests, rules & regulations regarding handlers??
i dont think anyone really believes the handler is so insignificant.

really great dogs might be able to get themselves thru a trial now and then with poor handlers, seen it myself quite a few times, ie....code blue
but that is the exception. and even if it were possible on any given day, the teamwork between a good dog and a smooth handler is priceless.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

"Walk ups" as such are about to become a distant memory in field trials.

Just sayin' regards,

kg


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## JKL (Oct 19, 2007)

K G said:


> "Walk ups" as such are about to become a distant memory in field trials.
> 
> Just sayin' regards,
> 
> kg



YAHOOOOOOO!!!!!!!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

For those who got in late this Is what I said about Handling dogs at FT's


> Field trial success is a function of many things .
> Having a good dog, knowing how to train dogs for the field trials, having good grounds and luck are high on the list.
> 
> Handling falls someware down the list. *The better the dog and the better it is trained ,*the further down the list in my estimation.
> ...


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

Tulsa Slim said:


> I guess after seeing those ballet slippers on Gus the Golden at the KS pheasant opener those word seemed appropriate.




Picken on a dog is just low...even for you Paul.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> forum *membership is a priveledge and not a constitutional right.* Like it or not, our membership priveledges can be revoked


 
How true! And why should Chris have to put up with threats of lawsuits, etc. due to personal attacks? 

I enjoyed your post Ted. Thanks for taking the time to write it.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I want to tell you all that trying to run one of these is a challenge.

My position has always been, regardless of which RTF iteration we've been in, which software, and who the moderators were, that I wholeheartedly support the actions of RTF's moderators.

I wholeheartedly support Vicky's decision as well. When a basic groundrule is laid down that states that there are no personal attacks allowed, then those posting personal attacks are out of line to post them.

The no personal attack scenario has been in place for as long as RTF has existed. What I find ironic is that some participating and throwing their little stones here, have been known to complain both here and elsewhere on the internet when RTF moderators do not respond "fast enough" to attacks. Clearly we're "damned if we do, and damned if we don't". I'm frankly shocked, but shouldn't be, at some of the folks tossing comments in this thread.

I do take offense to the term "censorship". RTF is not the United States of America. What happens on a thread where one person attacks someone else here, has nothing to do with what religion you can practice, or how your neighborhood is zoned. 

Maybe Richard is right. Maybe entire threads should disappear or be locked rather than a single attack in the body of a thread being removed.


Vicky simply moved something to see if I agreed that some issuing attacks needed to be contacted, and she even left it for me to determine if I thought it should be put back. 

It's kind of like the State Park. The rules say "Take nothing. Leave only footprints". Yet when someone picks up a nasty turd from the walking path, and someone else decides to cry "foul", folks may take note. But I doubt anyone's going to go get the nasty turd and put it back on the path. Nobody's going to intentionally take a valueless attack and put it back on the public board. 

Let's debate the topic and not attack the individual, OK?

And if you guys have problems please come to me personally, please.

Chris Atkinson

217-454-0361

Enough on the claims of "censorship". Please. We cannot allow personal attacks. If we do, the slope is so unbelievably slippery it's not funny. And I promise you, in the end, personal attacks can and do result in negative stuff befalling innocent people that steal their valuable time and resources. 

Maybe not in this thread. But I can promise you it does when defamatory posts come up that can negatively impact one's reputation and livlihood.

If you guys would like, we can lock this thread. But I think we've made some stuff pretty clear.

Please debate the issue. Please do not attack individuals here. If you have problems with the way things are run, contact me please.

RTF can be a great place to debate all things around our sport. It is certainly part of what makes this board attractive to many of you. But it can be done without personal attacks.

Favoritism? Yes. We are showing favoritism if you want to call it that. Our favorite posters are the ones who use RTF without attacks.


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

*********************************************************
All of these statements were written by Ted in the past couple of days and they all have a way of saying I'm better than you. So though the post is well written and a good read it appears to be somewhat hypocritical in my opinon.[/QUOTE]
**********************************************************
Because I chose not to genuflect before the king I was one of the posters that were warned for personal attacks. The first part of the original post was imo a contradiction to the way the thread starter conducts business here on a regular basis. And I pointed that out. Since the moderators feel that this kind of dialogue is a personal attack I've been directed by the moderators to do it by PM. So too all who thanked me via pm for pointing out certain indiscretions of the original poster I will continue to offer feedback and (enlightenment) via pm in the future. Greg


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## mike hodge (Aug 31, 2003)

Miriam Wade said:


> Richard's quote didn't come through, but I'm lost on the thought prrocess here because nowhere is Ted denigrating the "average" FTer or ignoring those who work to put on the trials. He's simply expressing his passion for the sport. I don't find him to be egotistical or self-serving. He's achieved the brass ring that many strive for and he's worked hard to get there. Some will say, "Well, he hired someone else to train the dogs". So? He was smart enough to do his homework and choose the right dogs and the right people to train them. Years ago (and with more of a HT, "me and my dog" mentality) I didn't understand that. But Ted isn't just a write-a-check-to success kind of player.
> 
> Jerry has it right. I've seen Ted run a dog (& sorry J.F.-I disagree that the handler is a small part of the equation) and he's the Tiger Woods of FTs!  No motion wasted and he plays it like a calculated game of chess.
> 
> ...


I agree completely, particuarly with the last paragraph.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Chris - A couple of questions - 1st - How do you respond to a post, with a contrary opinion, that contains this type of material including the PERSONAL pronoun numerous times without it being considered Personal? You do notice the initial statement noted in the contained quotes - "GENERIC"? 2nd - If you drive all the contrary posts underground to PM's what will make for a suitable discussion format or is this like our local newspaper only the side of the story the site approves of?




Ted Shih said:


> There are a few statements that have surfaced recently that I find particularly narrow minded and troublesome. For example, consider this often made statement:
> 
> 
> *People who run Field Trials with pro trained dogs are only interested in collecting ribbons or status.*
> ...


I guess we call this a GENERIC attack!!


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Richard Halstead said:


> The idea that the national competitors have the passion for the sport makes we wonder if we are forgetting about the individual that works the trials as well as competing with marginal dogs with out the reward of going to the National. There are the unrewarded workers with or without dogs that work the trials all because of the dog work. Is there passion not as great?


Perhaps Greater! To always be there. To keep the club running. To go beyond your own wants and desires for the betterment of the sport's. All because you love the dogs and working with them shows the highest level of desire and commitment. 
It is easy to show up on any given weekend and run your dog. Showing up and having to work so others can run theirs is hard.


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Miriam Wade said:


> (I probably only posted out of anxiety-that Pats are losing! :-( )
> 
> M



Hey, "M" !!! ....they WON...are ya celebrating today? Bob just got a new Pat's T at Olympia Sports within the last hour. ....nothing about "Jake" on it, so not too interesting to me  ..but he's happy!!

We are VERY icy, snow crust here  ..tough training..but getting out, anyway, to do some little (but important) teaching... 

Judy


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## Robert S. Libberton (Feb 7, 2005)

A couple Mark Twain quotes to sum up why everyone competes in this sport.

ENVY
To be envied is the human being's chiefest joy.
- No. 44, The Mysterious Stranger 

Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied.
- Following the Equator


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Robert,

My favorite Twain quote is in my signature line...


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

I like, "If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging". HPW


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## drbobsd (Feb 21, 2004)

Sorry for the brag. I have a daughter that is junior in college and she is interested in law. I had her read Ted's original post and she found it quite impressive as did I. She is a Nat. Merit, Goldwater scholar Chem major that is looking seriously into law. I feel wether in courtroom or field trial Mr. Shigh is a force to contend with.

I hope someday to face him at a field trial someday. I will hopefully after much more learning bring my A game. 

Wondering what trainer qui chen or what ever his name was would think of this thread


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> Which reminds me, I still have to pick up a copy of his latest bestseller _Merle's Door_, about the stray Labrador that adopted him. The relationship allows him to an in-depth examination of the human-dog bond.


I just ordered it from Amazon.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

drbobsd said:


> Wondering what trainer qui chen or what ever his name was would think of this thread


Qui Chang Trainer is a thoughtful, sensible, and spiritual man, while I am not authorized to speak for him, I suspect that he would find the tone of the discourse on this forum lately to be offensive and I would heartily agree with him.

Not Posting And Rarely Reading Regards.....

Finding Other Ways To Waste My Time Regards 

A Most Happy And Properous New Year To All Regards.....


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## thunderdan (Oct 14, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> I just ordered it from Amazon.


It is a great book that I enjoyed. It is a very intersting read.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

EdA said:


> Finding Other Ways To Waste My Time Regards
> 
> A Most Happy And Properous New Year To All Regards.....


Lordy I hope you ain't wasting a lot of time watching them Cowboys.

Grand total of ONE yard rushing regards

Bubba


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

Ted, I thought your OP was very well written and explained your love of the game very eloquently.

While our motivation for the game may be different, I would welcome the opportunity to buy you dinner and pick your brain and learn more about the art of handling if we were ever to cross paths.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

"Jerry has it right. I've seen Ted run a dog (& sorry J.F.-I disagree that the handler is a small part of the equation) and he's the Tiger Woods of FTs!  No motion wasted and he plays it like a calculated game of chess."

The "Tiger Woods of FT's". I hope to God you're kidding............


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Steve Hester said:


> "Jerry has it right. I've seen Ted run a dog (& sorry J.F.-I disagree that the handler is a small part of the equation) and he's the Tiger Woods of FTs!  No motion wasted and he plays it like a calculated game of chess."
> 
> The "Tiger Woods of FT's". I hope to God you're kidding............


If only it were true ....

But, thanks for the kind thoughts, Miriam

Ted


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2003)

Steve Hester said:


> The "Tiger Woods of FT's". I hope to God you're kidding............


I would expect Ted to behave better. If his dog gave a cast refusal, I would not expect Ted to throw down his whistle or scream at the gallery cause someone was wearing white.

Tiger is a great golfer, but a negative influence on the game. Fortunately, most of the crowd that he attracted to the game didn't stick because it is difficult and expensive (like field trials )

PS - My signature line (since September) is a from a Rush song that exactly describes what Ted is saying.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Steve said:


> I would expect Ted to behave better. If his dog gave a cast refusal, I would not expect Ted to throw down his whistle or scream at the gallery cause someone was wearing white.
> 
> Tiger is a great golfer, but a negative influence on the game. Fortunately, most of the crowd that he attracted to the game didn't stick because it is difficult and expensive (like field trials )
> 
> PS - My signature line (since September) is a from a Rush song that exactly describes what Ted is saying.


Interesting, you should have listened to the whole song....

If their lives were exotic and strange 
They would likely have gladly exchanged them 
For something a little more plain 
Maybe something a little more sane 


/Paul


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## DRAKEHAVEN (Jan 14, 2005)

DEAD, DEAD, STICK THE FORK IN IT.......BE'CUZ IT'S DEAD. THIS WHOLE THREAD IS DEAD.

Ted got philisophical, and some analyzed, some nit-picked, and some fawned over it.

I gave 12 dogs a bone, let them ALL lay on the living room floor and drank North Dakota Martini's.....and accomplished just as much as this group of BICKERING, DEBATING, BORING NON STOP INERTUBE ZOOMBIES.

Like Rodney said "Can't we all just get along"

Peace out my brotha
________
video review


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## Tom Watson (Nov 29, 2005)

Rick_C said:


> Ted, I thought your OP was very well written and explained your love of the game very eloquently.
> 
> While our motivation for the game may be different, I would welcome the opportunity to buy you dinner and pick your brain and learn more about the art of handling if we were ever to cross paths.


Can someone pass me the phenergan...I'm about to puke.


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Just got home from Duck guiding and jumped on the list to read Ted's very good post.

I thought to myself after reading it that this will get the "gackels" going! (I call the gackels on this list those who object to any post just for the sake of argueing).

I didn't even bother to read the last three pages.

Happy New Year everybody!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Miriam Wade said:


> Jerry has it right. I've seen Ted run a dog (& sorry J.F.-I disagree that the handler is a small part of the equation) and he's the Tiger Woods of FTs!  No motion wasted and he plays it like a calculated game of chess.
> 
> M


I, for fun typed Tiger Woods in a rtf search and out poped this 
GREAT old thread. This quote kind of has a whole new meaning now.


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## K G (Feb 11, 2003)

Remember, Ken...."great" is relative....;-)

5 on a scale of 10 regards,

kg


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Move along... ...nothing to see here folks!!

Dying of Embarassment Regards,

M

**But my heart was in the right place!


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## Rick_C (Dec 12, 2007)

I think of this thread often when the pissing contests get going...

Reading through this thread it is amazing how many missed the entire point of the OP and, instead, found this as an opportunity to continue pissing.

To each their own...


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Rick_C said:


> I think of this thread often when the pissing contests get going...
> 
> Reading through this thread it is amazing how many missed the entire point of the OP and, instead, found this as an opportunity to continue pissing.
> 
> To each their own...


I think it's raining, too!


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

It's a shame the 'critique' of the blinds turned into a peeing match. I printed off all the pages and got a lot of good 'training bits'. I was struck(smack dab in the forehead) by the comment *"FORGET" the blind*-moment of clarity for me realizing how bad a handler I've been in training. I really do appreciate all the help, critical or kind, that I've gotten on this forum. It makes me stop and think and want to be a better dog trainer and partner to my dog. 

I watched the dogs this morning flushing quail in the prairie-sun glinting off the snow, silhouetting them doing what they were born for-really beautiful-one of those thank God I'm alive to see such a simple thing, moment. 

Ted has the gift of eloquence. Thanks for bumping this up Ken.


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