# AKC push to ban e-collars



## DonBrou

The VP of AKC was on Fox and Friends this morning talking about how bad e-collars are. There was a guy trying to talk about the benefits of the e-collar but he was for the most part talked over. Get ready folks.....it's coming.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

DonBrou said:


> The VP of AKC was on Fox and Friends this morning talking about how bad e-collars are. There was a guy trying to talk about the benefits of the e-collar but he was for the most part talked over. Get ready folks.....it's coming.


Who is this fellow! Do you have a link to that report?


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## achiro

Saw it. Terrible, the freaking VICE PRESIDENT of the AKC calling them shock collars, talking about how treat training is better, and I'm pretty sure she said several National champions have been trained without it. I don't know about other breeds but I'm not sure a single NFC has been trained in the last 20 years without one?


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## badbullgator

achiro said:


> Saw it. Terrible, the freaking VICE PRESIDENT of the AKC calling them shock collars, talking about how treat training is better, and I'm pretty sure she said several National champions have been trained without it. I don't know about other breeds but I'm not sure a single NFC has been trained in the last 20 years without one?



More than 20 years..........

let AKC know they are wrong.


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## EdA

achiro said:


> Saw it. Terrible, the freaking VICE PRESIDENT of the AKC calling them shock collars, talking about how treat training is better, and I'm pretty sure she said several National champions have been trained without it. I don't know about other breeds but I'm not sure a single NFC has been trained in the last 20 years without one?


Make that 40 years


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## KwickLabs

Searched AKC Website.....

E-mail [email protected]

sent concerns mostly along the lines of if this was a "foot in mouth" issue.


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## Lynn Moore

​Maybe emailing Jerry Mann is the way to proceed here.


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## achiro

EdA said:


> Make that 40 years


It was a conservative guess but I was WAY off. LOL


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## WPS

I didn't see the interview but this doesn't surprise me at all. It's the direction our American society has been going in for years now which is that if there is anything that might cause an ounce of pain even if it is meant for good then it is bad and wrong...in a nutshell, it's just another part of the "wussification of America". Several years ago I was talking about my dog and the e-collar with an employee and she told me how mean it was for me to use it. I told her the story we've all heard about how she was right, and that I should let her only obey me whenever she felt like it so the next time she was running toward the street she could run right through my call and get killed. She changed her mind really quickly after that.


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## EdA

Lynn Moore said:


> ​Maybe emailing Jerry Mann is the way to proceed here.


I wouldn't waste time with that, Performance Events probably horrified. If you are outraged enough to respond write a personal letter to the President of The American Kennel Club rationally detailing the problem and the potential damage to the bottom line at AKC. Up next the use of live game, it's coming!


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## achiro

I'm about 90% sure this is the woman.
https://images.akc.org/pdf/press_center/Gina_Dinardo.pdf


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## cocdawg

May be a bad comparison BUT....look at the Adrian Petterson situation.....for what we know as of now, he spanked his child with a switch and four days later there was still some sort of mark. Hell, when I was a child, my parents and grandparents would've been on death row if this was "child abuse". In the south, this was/is the norm. Petterson said he grew up in TX where that's the way you disciplined your children (paraphrasing). My brother and I, all our friends, etc seemed to turn out alright with this form of punishment. When they stopped paddling in the schools, my father went to all of my teachers and told them, if he needs it, wear his butt out. Most teachers were scared to but the coaches didn't mind giving me what I needed. I spanked my oldest, with a belt, in my front yard for disrespecting my wife/his mom several months ago. Had a neighbor call the law. Law shows up (old classmate that currently helps me part-time when he's not on duty), kind of laughs it off and then goes on to tell me to be careful bc who knows what might happen if a different officer shows up. That was several months ago and to my knowledge, my son hasn't disrespected my wife/his mom since.

It's not surprising that we will soon be unable to use "force" to keep our animals safe and obedient.......especially when you look at the fact that we can't discipline our own children the way we were disciplined.

Stepping down off my soap-box now........GO DAWGS beat the cocks!!!


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## luvmylabs23139

achiro said:


> Saw it. Terrible, the freaking VICE PRESIDENT of the AKC calling them shock collars, talking about how treat training is better, and I'm pretty sure she said several National champions have been trained without it. I don't know about other breeds but I'm not sure a single NFC has been trained in the last 20 years without one?


She was against all non positive training. She went after all corrections and just pissed off the serious ob world too. Emails are flying within our AKC ob club already.


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## Thomas D

Jerry is in Atlanta this weekend so I'm sure he didn't see it. 
Saw something about gator season in Texas. Talking heads were concerned the hunters were humane in killing them. Kinda funny.


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## DonBrou

UKC may have to start doing field trials. Bet that'll get AKC's attention!


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## badbullgator

Are we sure this is an official AKC stance and not a misguided representative?


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## badbullgator

DonBrou said:


> UKC may have to start doing field trials. Bet that'll get AKC's attention!


Doubt it, but you can keep hoping


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## luvmylabs23139

badbullgator said:


> Are we sure this is an official AKC stance and not a misguided representative?


What we do know is that it was the VP, not a nobody. Additionally she said CGC is all positive, not the way I teach!!! UGH! Just another reason to bail as an evaluator.


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## huntinman

badbullgator said:


> Are we sure this is an official AKC stance and not a misguided representative?


I think this woman may be off the reservation a little. Doubt if she has any clue about the numbers of folks in various dog sports who use collars... She is a total anti-coercion type from the word go... And nothing the other guest said was going to even register. Problem is... She has the microphone...


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## achiro

huntinman said:


> I think this woman may be off the reservation a little. Doubt if she has any clue about the numbers of folks in various dog sports who use collars... She is a total anti-coercion type from the word go... And nothing the other guest said was going to even register. Problem is... She has the microphone...


And a title


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## luvmylabs23139

huntinman said:


> I think this woman may be off the reservation a little. Doubt if she has any clue about the numbers of folks in various dog sports who use collars... She is a total anti-coercion type from the word go... And nothing the other guest said was going to even register. Problem is... She has the microphone...


If you saw the exchange, while not directly saying she opposed invisable fences too. Dog forbid I have 2 fences one of which is the invisable to double protect doors and gates. If you saw the actual interview an E collar was not the collar shown. It was either a crappy fence collar or a bark collar.


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## Scott R.

Link to the video...
http://video.foxnews.com/v/37829135...ining/?playlist_id=930909787001#sp=show-clips


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## huntinman

achiro said:


> I'm about 90% sure this is the woman.
> https://images.akc.org/pdf/press_center/Gina_Dinardo.pdf


Thats her. I just watched the video twice.


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## huntinman

EdA said:


> I wouldn't waste time with that, Performance Events probably horrified. If you are outraged enough to respond write a personal letter to the President of The American Kennel Club rationally detailing the problem and the potential damage to the bottom line at AKC. Up next the use of live game, it's coming!


Surprised we have made it this long Ed.


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## JS

badbullgator said:


> Are we sure this is an official AKC stance and not a misguided representative?


That's my read. Just an uninformed rogue who thinks she's doing what's best for the dogs. Can't believe there aren't folks at the upper levels of AKC who aren't astute and experienced in the training of dogs to an advanced degree.

JS


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## Dustin D

They totally screwed him on responding too. 

Nice 'Fair & Balanced' Debate as she described at the beginning of the clip


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## luvmylabs23139

JS said:


> That's my read. Just an uninformed rogue who thinks she's doing what's best for the dogs. Can't believe there aren't folks at the upper levels of AKC who aren't astute and experienced in the training of dogs to an advanced degree.
> 
> JS


She is a VP at the AKC. Getting ugly fast in the ob world.


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## DoubleHaul

JS said:


> That's my read. Just an uninformed rogue who thinks she's doing what's best for the dogs. Can't believe there aren't folks at the upper levels of AKC who aren't astute and experienced in the training of dogs to an advanced degree.
> 
> JS


Rogue or not she stated that it was the opinion of the AKC. That may not be true but that is what she said. If it is not true, they should fire her for saying it.


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## huntinman

DoubleHaul said:


> Rogue or not she stated that it was the opinion of the AKC. That may not be true but that is what she said. If it is not true, they should fire her for saying it.


Her bio page supports what she said. She has a lot of experience with the media and reports to the executive secretary at AKC. I have a feeling after reading her bio that they may have been floating a trial ballon.


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## windwalkers swan song

If the media would take a notion to this like they do for instance Ray Rice Danny Ferry Rodger Goddell maybe this Cat needs to step down from a post we support !!!!


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## afdahl

Positive training has its place--but IMO anyone at that level ought to know that for the average dog-owning household, getting reliability through positive-only methods is far too technical and time-consuming. Idealogical purity ==> dead dogs.

Sigh…and to think at one time the Prez of AKC was a field trialer and Rex Carr client….

Amy Dahl


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## freezeland

I wouldn't get too excited yet. I liken this to the gun grabbers and gun control. How many guns are out there? Same can be asked about collars. I can hear the collar grabbers now. Give em up Mr and Mrs America. Yea right, just another senator Feinstein in a Akc suit.


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## afdahl

freezeland said:


> I wouldn't get too excited yet. I liken this to the gun grabbers and gun control. How many guns are out there? Same can be asked about collars. I can hear the collar grabbers now. Give em up Mr and Mrs America. Yea right, just another senator Feinstein in a Akc suit.


Uh…the problem with that is the gun owners have the NRA--THE model of a powerful lobbying organization.

What do we have? The HSUS: now bigger than the NRA (I think)--and on the wrong side.

Amy Dahl


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## huntinman

freezeland said:


> I wouldn't get too excited yet. I liken this to the gun grabbers and gun control. How many guns are out there? Same can be asked about collars. I can hear the collar grabbers now. Give em up Mr and Mrs America. Yea right, just another senator Feinstein in a Akc suit.


This is different... These "shock" our poor little pets... Everyone loves their pets. They play on those sympathies. The percentage of folks with e collars is way lower than gun owners or even supporters.


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## Todd Caswell

Crazy, so what if AKC "bans" them? AKC can't tell me I can't use one


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## Don Lietzau

It's easy. Boycott AKC. If all E-collar users write to the AKC with their intentions they will be forced to listen.
Don


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## Russ

Look at this recent article in the Washington post on a recent study in England. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...tronic-shock-collars-might-distress-your-dog/

The conclusion was "Though the collars are efficient, the study concluded there was no consistent benefit to using electronic shock collars that would outweigh the negative effect on the welfare of any misbehaving mutt"

This is a moral, not scientific judgment, which raises suspicions of the objectivity of the investigators.


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## ron david

cocdawg said:


> May be a bad comparison BUT....look at the Adrian Petterson situation.....for what we know as of now, he spanked his child with a switch and four days later there was still some sort of mark. Hell, when I was a child, my parents and grandparents would've been on death row if this was "child abuse". In the south, this was/is the norm. Petterson said he grew up in TX where that's the way you disciplined your children (paraphrasing). My brother and I, all our friends, etc seemed to turn out alright with this form of punishment. When they stopped paddling in the schools, my father went to all of my teachers and told them, if he needs it, wear his butt out. Most teachers were scared to but the coaches didn't mind giving me what I needed. I spanked my oldest, with a belt, in my front yard for disrespecting my wife/his mom several months ago. Had a neighbor call the law. Law shows up (old classmate that currently helps me part-time when he's not on duty), kind of laughs it off and then goes on to tell me to be careful bc who knows what might happen if a different officer shows up. That was several months ago and to my knowledge, my son hasn't disrespected my wife/his mom since.
> 
> It's not surprising that we will soon be unable to use "force" to keep our animals safe and obedient.......especially when you look at the fact that we can't discipline our own children the way we were disciplined.
> 
> Stepping down off my soap-box now........GO DAWGS beat the cocks!!!


that's right just beat it out of them.
ron


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## badbullgator

luvmylabs23139 said:


> What we do know is that it was the VP, not a nobody. Additionally she said CGC is all positive, not the way I teach!!! UGH! Just another reason to bail as an evaluator.


If you read the link posted to her bio she is an "assistant vice president" and "assistant executive secretary". Any guess how many assistant VP's an organization like AKC has? Any guess how important a assistant vp who is also an assistant executive secretary is in an organization that size? Translation she is not that important and is probably not the opinion of AKC on this. I could be wrong, but I would bet there is going to be some backlash that will bust her down to just assistant secretary.


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## Scott R.

Do a google search for AKC President and Chief Executive Officer Dennis B. Sprung's email address. It's there. I won't post it but it's not hard to find.


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## Todd Caswell

Scott R. said:


> Do a google search for AKC President and Chief Executive Officer Dennis B. Sprung's email address. It's there. I won't post it but it's not hard to find.


I couldn't find it would you PM me with it I would like to forward the link of interview and his email address to our club members


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## luvmylabs23139

badbullgator said:


> If you read the link posted to her bio she is an "assistant vice president" and "assistant executive secretary". Any guess how many assistant VP's an organization like AKC has? Any guess how important a assistant vp who is also an assistant executive secretary is in an organization that size? Translation she is not that important and is probably not the opinion of AKC on this. I could be wrong, but I would bet there is going to be some backlash that will bust her down to just assistant secretary.


She needs to be FIRED not demoted!


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## freezeland

huntinman said:


> This is different... These "shock" our poor little pets... Everyone loves their pets. They play on those sympathies. The percentage of folks with e collars is way lower than gun owners or even supporters.


Its unenforceable. They can do what they want. I'll keep my collars.


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## achiro

Todd Caswell said:


> Crazy, so what if AKC "bans" them? AKC can't tell me I can't use one


It's not the AKC banning them that should concern you.



badbullgator said:


> If you read the link posted to her bio she is an "assistant vice president" and "assistant executive secretary". Any guess how many assistant VP's an organization like AKC has? Any guess how important a assistant vp who is also an assistant executive secretary is in an organization that size? Translation she is not that important and is probably not the opinion of AKC on this. I could be wrong, but I would bet there is going to be some backlash that will bust her down to just assistant secretary.


She was called a VP. Doesn't really matter what her real title is, the casual pet owner is going to consider her someone "in the know" and give her opinion merit...especially when she uses terms like "we" meaning that she is speaking for AKC. 


freezeland said:


> Its unenforceable. They can do what they want. I'll keep my collars.


Ask folks in countries that have banned them if it is enforceable.


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## achiro

luvmylabs23139 said:


> just pissed off the serious ob world too.


Oh Lord, that's good news 'cause there's some crazy intense folks in that group!


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## Becky Mills

achiro said:


> Oh Lord, that's good news 'cause there's some crazy intense folks in that group!


Watch it Russ - you're gonna get somebody riled up and they're gonna call you a goat roper again


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## James Seibel

Todd Caswell said:


> I couldn't find it would you PM me with it I would like to forward the link of interview and his email address to our club members


Phone numbers and email address of AKC staff on Page 10 of this file 

https://images.akc.org/pdf/about/organizational_chart.pdf


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## DDay

https://images.akc.org/pdf/press_center/Gina_Dinardo.pdf

Look at her experience, Dog shows. This is no different than someone like Sarah Brady or a Newtown parent talking about gun laws, guns, etc. No idea what she is talking about.


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## windycanyon

luvmylabs23139 said:


> She is a VP at the AKC. Getting ugly fast in the ob world.


Let's hope the LRC, GRCA, Chessie club, etc step in to write letters too.
I had a situation last week w/ someone who is R+ only, newb to obed (if you can call Rally Nov obedience that is) and agility who proposed to the club that we ban prong collars because she (as an INSTRUCTOR, lol!) didn't know how to use them. Ecollars were mentioned of course as well, but gosh, I've been told years ago they weren't welcome there anyhow. Anyhow, my suggestion to her and the Board was that if she didn't know how to use the commonly used pet training tools, she wasn't qualified to teach. Deady silence.


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## Newf

Just a couple months ago I brought up the fact that this stuff was on the horizon here in Canada, and as I understand it, it did gain some ground in Quebec, however it was somewhat pushed aside. No doubt we are facing some serious issues regarding the use of collars both sides of the borders. Maybe we should all band together and form some sort of Retriever/Gun Dog association to promote and give us as trainers a stronger voice in the downward spiral of misinformation and political correctness we are all facing. 

We would have to try to get NAHRA, HRC, UKC, Dogtra, Garmin, etc. All on board with it though. Personally I wouldn't know where to begin to start that sort of thing, but i'm tossing the idea out there...


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## Thomas D

Just saw jerry. What is name of vp in the interview?


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## Pat Puwal

Gina Dinardo!


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## polmaise

huntinman said:


> I think this woman may be off the reservation a little. Doubt if she has any clue about the numbers of folks in various dog sports who use collars... She is a total anti-coercion type from the word go... And nothing the other guest said was going to even register. *Problem is... She has the microphone..*.


That would be the ''Silent majority'' ?...Welcome to 'MY' world _huntinman_. It started that way with fox hunting over here , then tail docking ban on hunting dogs. I'm pretty sure the acme 210 1/2 and the slip lead are next on the list ;-)...But not before Fishing with a hook is deemed 'wrong'


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## Jerry and Freya

EdA said:


> I wouldn't waste time with that, Performance Events probably horrified. If you are outraged enough to respond write a personal letter to the President of The American Kennel Club rationally detailing the problem and the potential damage to the bottom line at AKC. Up next the use of live game, it's coming!


Jerry Mann for the most part is the A.K.C. rep that goes to most if not all of the hunt test seminars. 
Unless he is on is way out?


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## huntinman

polmaise said:


> That would be the ''Silent majority'' ?...Welcome to 'MY' world _huntinman_. It started that way with fox hunting over here , then tail docking ban on hunting dogs. I'm pretty sure the acme 210 1/2 and the slip lead are next on the list ;-)...But not before Fishing with a hook is deemed 'wrong'


Don't know what the acme 210 1/2 is... But slip leads?? Holy smoke! Fish hooks I get, how could you... You brute!


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## freezeland

achiro said:


> Ask folks in countries that have banned them if it is enforceable.


You mean all those countries who's total populations summed together wouldn't match the total number of dog owners in the US. 

It would be an unenforceable law here. Much like if they went around and tried to collect all the guns. Not gonna worry about it, nor would I comply if they passed such a law. All this talk on fox news this morning was a bunch of blah blah noise from a PETA, Green Peace, Code Pink wanna be with a title in the AKC. I wouldn't be surprised after that segment aired she was summarily told to go sit down and muzzle it from her bosses, else go find something else to do.


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## EdA

Jerry and Freya said:


> Jerry Mann for the most part is the A.K.C. rep that goes to most if not all of the hunt test seminars.
> Unless he is on is way out?


That's not the point, Jerry is way too far down the food chain, no one in Headquarters in NYC cares what the Performance Event field reps think, if you want to complain go straight to the top.


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## jd6400

badbullgator said:


> Doubt it, but you can keep hoping


Don't be to sure......they (UKC) took the note hunts (*******) to a whole new level 35 years ago from a well known registry......


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## RobinZClark

I just sent the following email to these people at the AKC: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

"As an owner of 4 dogs who have competed in AKC performance events for 10 years I am extremely offended by the idea that the AKC finds ecollars inhumane. I am just beginning to enter AKC Hunt Tests...next weekend is my Golden Retriever's debut in a Junior Hunter test. I am also planning to enter him in Field Trial competitions next summer. Most, if not all, serious hunt test and field trial competitors routinely use ecollars. Many obedience competitors routinely use ecollars. 


I would be more than happy to work with you to show you how ecollars can be one of the most effective, humane and reliable tools for training dogs. 


My expectation is that there will be a correction to this inane pronouncement and that Ms. Dinardo will be coached on how to deal with future media appearances so as to not to alienate a large portion of the AKC customer base."


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## Russ

EdA said:


> That's not the point, Jerry is way too far down the food chain, no one in Headquarters in NYC cares what the Performance Event field reps think, if you want to complain go straight to the top.


Exactly! I just sent emails to Dennis Sprung, AKC President and James Crowley, Executive Secretary. They are the only two people above Ms. DiNardo at AKC. I wish to add that a volume of thought out correspondence does carry weight in any political issue.


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## achiro

freezeland said:


> You mean all those countries who's total populations summed together wouldn't match the total number of dog owners in the US.
> 
> It would be an unenforceable law here. Much like if they went around and tried to collect all the guns. Not gonna worry about it, nor would I comply if they passed such a law. All this talk on fox news this morning was a bunch of blah blah noise from a PETA, Green Peace, Code Pink wanna be with a title in the AKC. I wouldn't be surprised after that segment aired she was summarily told to go sit down and muzzle it from her bosses, else go find something else to do.


So your idea is to ignore it until the law passes then just break the law? That's genius.


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## Margo Ellis

People it is Fox news for Pete sake


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## Russ

The animal rights movement bridges the political spectrum. Conservative talk show hosts Rush Limbaugh and Laura Ingraham have supported HSUS.


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## Eric Johnson

For any that missed this and want to see it. 

http://tinyurl.com/keknvc2

I've already posted on a private website run by the AKC Govt Affairs bunch that while they're trying to keep the sport of dogs alive, their own VP is seeking to destroy it.



Eric


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## HPL

afdahl said:


> Positive training has its place--but IMO anyone at that level ought to know that for the average dog-owning household, getting reliability through positive-only methods is far too technical and time-consuming. Idealogical purity ==> dead dogs.
> 
> Sigh…and to think at one time the Prez of AKC was a field trialer and Rex Carr client….
> 
> Amy Dahl



Do you really want the AVERAGE dog owning household to be using an e-collar? It is my understanding that in un-trained hands there is plenty of opportunity for abuse and that mis-using an e-collar can ruin a dog as surely as using one correctly can help one.


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## Eric Johnson

Corey-

It likely is not an official position of the AKC but her position. However, having been introduced as a VP of AKC, she made it their position when she gave a private opinion. That's as good as I can spin this. I've suggested in a letter to AKC Govt Affairs, that Ms DiNardo seek other employment.


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## Pat Puwal

I sent an email to Dennis Sprung and Gina Dinardo with copy to Jerry Mann. I got back a form letter from a Christopher Walker. The reason I know it is a form letter is that my friend sent an email and got the same exact reply. 

I quote: "Today the AKC participated in a very important segment to discuss the use of e-collars in training pet dog the basic commands. The AKC felt that is was critical that we recommend the use of positive reinforcement techniques and training programs such as CGC as the best method to train dogs these commands."


"AKC believes that positive reinforcement techniques are the best method for the general public to create well trained pets that thrive in their homes and communities. AKC also recognizes that when used properly and under the guidance of experienced trainers, e-collars are an appropriate tool for training and working with dogs in certain performance sports. AKC is proud to support the dedicated members of our sport who put the well being and happiness of their dogs first. 
It is important that AKC continues to reach out to the owner of the pet dog and it is important that our constituents understand the difference between the training of our athlete dogs, who compete in high level competition and the everyday family dog."

"I can understand the upset that you have, but I want to assure you the context for the discussion was around pet dogs and training them. You know of the AKC's continue support and love for field trials and performance events - our support of these sports will never diminish."

"If you would like to discuss on a call, I can make myself available to chat whenever is best."


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## mmrobinsonontheroad

HPL said:


> Do you really want the AVERAGE dog owning household to be using an e-collar? It is my understanding that in un-trained hands there is plenty of opportunity for abuse and that mis-using an e-collar can ruin a dog as surely as using one correctly can help one.


The average dog owning household is not going to fork out +- $350.00 for a training aid when they have no idea what a trained dog is. Using dogs I see every day hauling their owners up my street as an indicator, I would say that even the most elementary heeling is beyond most pet owners teaching capabilities. These Yuppies, whose dogs are never off lead (because they have no recall) are prime fodder for the antis. They are PC, virtuous and malleable. 

I see a need for an organized call to arms ...(what a great phrase).

note: I felt the piece on FOX was a set up. The fellow speaking on behalf of e-collars was young, kind of casual looking and was not allowed to finish a sentence without Ms. AKC Rep making faces and shaking her head as if saying "what a ill informed fool" and speaking over him.

Medie


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## Glenda Brown

Hi Pat:

I just sent an e-mail to Dennis Sprung and James Crowley using [email protected] and [email protected] and it came bouncing back. I worked long and hard over the e-mail and one thing I did was ask for Ms. diNardo's training credentials to be posted. Also, I thought she sounded more like HSUS than AKC. I was very polite but pointed.

Would you send me the e-mail address you used or if anyone has a way to reach Mr. Sprung or Mr. Crowley, I would appreciate it. We can't have all the controversy just be with the NFL.

I could try sending a copy to Ms. diNardo but she would probably just look very smug like she did on the video.

I sent a note to the LRC describing the video. 

Thanks. Glenda


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## windycanyon

It sounds to me like they are talking out of both sides of their mouths. Again. Pretty disappointed w/ a lot of the things being done at headquarters lately.


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## freezeland

achiro said:


> So your idea is to ignore it until the law passes then just break the law? That's genius.


The right course of action is being taken. Swamp the AKC with email expressing displeasure at their misinformed position, if in fact it is the AKC official position. I suspect its just a rogue do gooder's though who has no clue. But yes, in the end if it were to become law I would break it, as would many others. Its unenforceable.


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## Glenda Brown

Hi Robin:

Missed seeing your addresses and will forward my comments to some of those. I really felt my letter was a work of art and should not be dismissed by a form letter!!!! 

I asked the AKC to make definite statement as to their stance on the use of an e-collar in dog training. 

Glenda


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## polmaise

huntinman said:


> Don't know what the acme 210 1/2 is... But slip leads?? Holy smoke! Fish hooks I get, how could you... You brute!


I was just 'scaremongering' rather than 'Fishmongering' 
The so called 'silent majority' however are not so silent and often are those that make decisions in our lives that they never experience. That (imo) does not mean that they should be ignored! ..Isn't that just nice and democratic .
Just a 'for instance' ?...The average dog loving pet dog owner spends 10 times more in monetary value on their dogs than those that have 'gundogs' ?..No matter what side of the pond you are . Sobering thought .
Those same folks out number 'gundog' owners by 100 times perhaps more. If you think about the 'elite' who use e-collar correctly as a tool for retriever training in competition against the numbers that don't , but have a dog ?...The Acme 210 1/2 btw is a whistle 

Flip side : I am not allowed to use the e-collar in my country or dock the tail of my spaniel or hunt foxes or have my dog in public without a tag or collar with identification attached. I never voted for any of the laws that were passed by any of the governments that passed these laws. I never agreed with them , But they happened .That's Democracy . I'm off hunting


----------



## afdahl

Pat, thanks for sharing the letter. I find it very discouraging. IMO the best method for training a pet dog is the one the owner is able to employ. I deal with a lot of owners that are very frustrated by positive reinforcement training. The method may work on dogs when applied by an expert, but it is too technical and detailed for a lot of owners.

Amy Dahl


----------



## Chris Atkinson

Becky Mills said:


> Watch it Russ - you're gonna get somebody riled up and they're gonna call you a goat roper again


Jerry Jeff Walker says "Goat Ropers need lovin' too"


----------



## RobinZClark

A very wise friend suggested that we share our opinions on the AKC Facebook page as well...

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanKennelClub

I posted my letter there.


----------



## dogluvah

The AKC must make a habit of sending their most clueless spokespersons to speak on national TV. Flashback to Spring 2013, the Today show did a "report" on AKC breeders, basically stating AKC was licensing abusive puppymills. It was a HSUS backed production that introduced polished media savvy talking heads, and AKC sent a person who could not take one step forward without tripping over their on tongue. Unfortunately AKC collects $ from breeders, owners and exhibitors, but does very little to represent those of us that pay their salaries. It is my understanding the that the presence of E-collars and prong collars are banned on the grounds of all AKC events. That is OK with me as these type of training tools need to be explained clearly and their proper use demonstrated to any new user. I would hate to have a spectator come to a performance event and think if they simply go home and strap an e-collar on Fido, they could "teach" him the same skills. Yet when an AKC rep goes on national TV and discounts proven humane training methods used in private homes, yards and fields -that is something different. I agree with others here, AKC cannot confiscate all our e-collars, but also agree we cannot ignore this "pronouncement". Will they ban e-collars at all AKC hunting retriever and field trial club practice days next? My local AKC Obedience club bans prong collars at their lessons, run thrus and fun matches, right along with their AKC sanctioned events. A large lobby group of dog owners sounds awesome, but we won't find enough that will all agree. Just look at the huge divide between some militant rescue folks and professional breeders. We "retrieverites" are not big enough spenders to sway anyone. Unfortunately money drives most things in USA, just watch HSUS if you doubt that.


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## EdA

RobinZClark said:


> A very wise friend suggested that we share our opinions on the AKC Facebook page as well...
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/AmericanKennelClub
> 
> I posted my letter there.


I'm going to bet that the President of The American Kennel Club does not spend anytime looking at the AKC Facebook page but a big stack of letters on his desk might be difficult to ignore.


----------



## Chris Atkinson

EdA said:


> I'm going to bet that the President of The American Kennel Club does not spend anytime looking at the AKC Facebook page but a big stack of letters on his desk might be difficult to ignore.


I agree with this 100% plus.

Anyone who truly cares and wants to make a difference should send professionally written, non-emotionally driven paper correspondence.

A standard, old-fashioned business letter.

Chris


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## Chris Atkinson

The fact is that it is way too easy for anyone to rap out their emotions on a keyboard and hit the send key, whether it's email, facebook, or a discussion board.

A hardcopy mailed letter has real substance and is likely to hold more weight... Both figuratively and literally. A sack of true mail has real weight.... a couple hundred emails are ignored or deleted easily.

Chris


----------



## dogluvah

This is from AKC website:
*Training Collars *(July 2001 Board meeting) 
Special training devices that are used to control and train dogs, including but not limited to, collars with prongs, electronic collars used with transmitters, muzzles and head collars may not be used on dogs at AKC events, except as allowed in the AKC Rules, Regulations, and policies. 

The American Kennel Club recognizes that special training collars may be an effective and useful management device, when properly used, for controlling dogs that might be extremely active, difficult to control on a neck collar, or dog aggressive. These collars are also recognized as possibly useful for gaining control at the start of basic obedience training, essential education that dogs deserve and need. 

There is a point at which owners should have sufficient control of their dogs to manage them on regular neck collars, without the use of special training collars. This is the point at which dogs are acceptable on the grounds of AKC competitive events and will have the opportunity to participate in those events.


----------



## EdA

Chris Atkinson said:


> ......a couple hundred emails are ignored or deleted easily.
> Chris


And probably by an administrative assistant the intended recipient never having seen them.


----------



## dogluvah

Agree with recommendation for snail mail response. Just too simple to hit delete button on emails received!


----------



## John Kelder

Got to page 8 of this thread. Saw enough .... EE will now have a box to check off to affirm or deny use of Ecollar in training of dogs to be entered . If you affirm , EE will not accept your entry , AKC will not get their cut and they will fire her, publically announce her abuse of office and take out full page ads in the WSJ and NY Times supporting Ecollars within 2 weekends of lost revenue ..... Follow the money regards........
PS- Garmin and Dogtra should have chimed in by now.. They are profitable because of us , are they not ??


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## Chris Atkinson

John Kelder said:


> Got to page 8 of this thread. Saw enough .... EE will now have a box to check off to affirm or deny use of Ecollar in training of dogs to be entered . If you affirm , EE will not accept your entry , AKC will not get their cut and they will fire her, publically announce her abuse of office and take out full page ads in the WSJ and NY Times supporting Ecollars within 2 weekends of lost revenue ..... Follow the money regards........
> PS- Garmin and Dogtra should have chimed in by now.. They are profitable because of us , are they not ??


My suggestion to you brother John:

Click: "settings" "general settings" "show 40 posts per page".

This will cut down the number of pages you have to click through. 

Personally, I prefer it that way.

Chris


----------



## Pat Puwal

I will definitely mail a hard copy of my email to Dennis B. Sprung, Pres. & CEO, AKC, 260 Madison Ave,. New York, NY 10016 on Monday. I will post on AKC Facebook page also.


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## BonMallari

its is time for the RAC, the NARC, and the NRC to step up and represent the sport and its constituents...

it may also be time to join forces with the pointing dog organizations since they also use the same electronics..

Disclaimer : the only electronics we use are barking collars, but I see any legislation that tells any of us HOW and by What methods we can train our dogs as an attack on all of us..

I always feared the progression would be the elimination of 

1.live birds

2.live ammunition

99. elimination of electric collar

guess someone has a different agenda


----------



## steveMO

https://www.akc.org/about/board_of_directors.cfm with emails. These probably do get through to the recipents, as they don't work for AKC. Be polite. These are not AKC employees.


----------



## Chris Atkinson

BonMallari said:


> its is time for the RAC, the NARC, and the NRC to step up and represent the sport and its constituents...
> 
> it may also be time to join forces with the pointing dog organizations since they also use the same electronics..
> 
> Disclaimer : the only electronics we use are barking collars, but I see any legislation that tells any of us HOW and by What methods we can train our dogs as an attack on all of us..
> 
> I always feared the progression would be the elimination of
> 
> 1.live birds
> 
> 2.live ammunition
> 
> 99. elimination of electric collar
> 
> guess someone has a different agenda


I think we need to be very careful here.

I think the lady on TV today is a pet lady who has zero idea of what field trials are about.

If we start openly laying out the specifics of our sport on the internet, we are painting a big fat bullseye on our chests, backs and behinds.....

Let's be smart! 

Chris


----------



## Chris Atkinson

Chris Atkinson said:


> I think we need to be very careful here.
> 
> I think the lady on TV today is a pet lady who has zero idea of what field trials are about.
> 
> If we start openly laying out the specifics of our sport on the internet, we are painting a big fat bullseye on our chests, backs and behinds.....
> 
> Let's be smart!
> 
> Chris


One reason I always liked televised SRS and the rubber ducks was the thought that it keeps the nuts looking at other things to protest. (retrievers have not fetched real birds for years and years...now they pick up fake rubber ducks)

I really don't want a human chain of goofballs holding hands across the entryway to a WMA on the first day of a trial.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

The collar showed on the TV was a vibrating shock collar for pet dogs. Very low intensity. Rechargeable. Imagine if she was educated in what we do use!
Best suggestion is to write letters and mail them in; flooding her desk and the Pres. 
I was at an Obedience show today. Two of the obedience people I know were completely surprised by this on Fox. They were also opposed to the ban. And one had a fluffy dog!


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## dr_dog_guy

As a guy with 5 fluffy dogs and 2 black ones, an FC, an MH, two SH, and points but no CH, my dogs get excited when they see them. The black ones just had to get used to the long contacts


----------



## Dave Mirek

I think that the suggestions to write a professional letter without the raw emotion is an excellent recommendation and something that everyone should do. 

The problem that I have is the comment about "responsible pet owners", those of us who train with the proper use of electronics are responsible pet owners. The AKC wouldn't exist if all their registered dogs and even registered litters went to responsible pet owners, there aren't enough of us to support the organization that they are. I won't write anymore on a discussion board, but this position is very concerning.


----------



## BJGatley

The fact that she represents all of AKC, obviously not being well verse in all breeds, and then using her person opinion for whatever reason shows lack of education on her part.

I think she needs to review AKC Mission Statement and keep her personal feeling aside.
I will be writing a letter, but I will keep it high level and leave out the jargon. I will try and supply charts and/or pie charts to support my concern and hopefully show their was an injustice.


----------



## Irishwhistler

Chris Atkinson said:


> The fact is that it is way too easy for anyone to rap out their emotions on a keyboard and hit the send key, whether it's email, facebook, or a discussion board.
> 
> A hardcopy mailed letter has real substance and is likely to hold more weight... Both figuratively and literally. A sack of true mail has real weight.... a couple hundred emails are ignored or deleted easily.
> 
> Chris



Chris is spot on with this approach. Also, I highly doubt that an individual such as Di 
Nardo a VP within the chain of command of AKC was acting totally on her own when making statements deemed to be representative of an official stance of the AKC regarding the use of e-collars.

AKC has by this action and statement of one of the organizations executive officers, alienated and offended a substantial number of members, participants, and financial supporters of AKC programs.

AKC needs to be pressed into accountability for this matter. They need to be pressed to
make a clear and decisive statement regarding their official stance on the use of e-collars and any potential support of a ban on said tools. If in fact they are backtracking on the matter, they need to make an official statement of apology, not that such an afterthought will counter the damage already done by the irresponsible commentary of VP Di Nardo. In all likelyhood, Di Nardo is being paid a lucrative salary that is not commeasurate with her dubious abilities to fairly represent many of those AKC members and participants that in fact contribute to the salary she draws. Di Nardo needs to be terminated if she acted on her own in making such potentially damaging and offensive statements, and any severence package should be contingent on her using her manipulative media skills to make a public apology on FOX NEWS. If DiNardo did not act on her own, the truthful stance of AKC on this matter must be made known or they should suffer all that comes with a complete lack of credibility to those of us that support the organization. Are those in AKC's ivory tower that "out of touch" with their total customer base?

Every person that owns, breeds, trains, , hunts, and / or particpates in field sports with any breeds of field sporting dogs should be both concerned and offended by this incident and any official support of this stance regarding e-collars by the AKC or it's employees. Likewise, we should ALL take the time to send a hardcopy letter making our discontent with the matter known, demanding a clarification on the official AKC stance, and suggesting that VP Di Nardo be forced to find new employment.

Disgusted,
IRISHWHISTLER


----------



## Jamee Strange

Scott R. said:


> Link to the video...
> http://video.foxnews.com/v/37829135...ining/?playlist_id=930909787001#sp=show-clips


Wow! They didn't even let that poor guy finish or respond and all she kept doing was interrupting. I laughed at her comment about dogs not minding being on lead in a park...hah! They're dogs...they want to explore and sniff and pee on everything, they don't want to be on lead. Stupid people representing the dog world is what we have here


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## Mary Lynn Metras

Here is the culprit Andrea! 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-surges-over-dog-shock-collar-use/

http://dogtime.com/new-study-reveals-dog-shock-collars-cause-distress.html

http://www.andreaarden.com/


----------



## Jamee Strange

Chris Atkinson said:


> I think we need to be very careful here.
> 
> I think the lady on TV today is a pet lady who has zero idea of what field trials are about.
> 
> If we start openly laying out the specifics of our sport on the internet, *we are painting a big fat bullseye on our chests, backs and behinds.....*
> 
> Let's be smart!
> 
> Chris


Agreed! Chris, we REALLY need a "like" button lol


----------



## Thomas D

It is being handled at some of the highest levels of AKC.


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## HPL

Thomas D said:


> It is being handled at some of the highest levels of AKC.



Sarcasm can be hard to detect on the net. Should there have been a ;-) after your post?


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Folks received a reply from a Chris Walker AKC after Email Mr. Sprung's office. They are not seeking a ban on collars. *Therefore we thought it best to promote efforts like CGC and PR, as we think that is what is best for the inexperienced dog owner and the general public as a whole.*
This is their goal and it makes sense. As for performance events *be assured we stand behind our people who compete in performance events and we are always here to address any concerns.* IMO hopefully that is their intent The letter is sincere. FYI I am sure others will receive replies.


----------



## HPL

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Folks received a reply from a Chris Walker AKC after Email Mr. Sprung's office. They are not seeking a ban on collars. *Therefore we thought it best to promote efforts like CGC and PR, as we think that is what is best for the inexperienced dog owner and the general public as a whole.*
> This is their goal and it makes sense. As for performance events *be assured we stand behind our people who compete in performance events and we are always here to address any concerns.* IMO hopefully that is their intent The letter is sincere. FYI I am sure others will receive replies.


If that is truly their policy, they need to go back on FOX and several other news providers and retract that woman's statement and clarify their position, perhaps giving a professional trainer time to explain the proper use of e-collars.


----------



## Thomas D

HPL said:


> Sarcasm can be hard to detect on the net. Should there have been a ;-) after your post?


No sarcasm here.


----------



## Russ

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Folks received a reply from a Chris Walker AKC after Email Mr. Sprung's office. They are not seeking a ban on collars. *Therefore we thought it best to promote efforts like CGC and PR, as we think that is what is best for the inexperienced dog owner and the general public as a whole.*
> This is their goal and it makes sense. As for performance events *be assured we stand behind our people who compete in performance events and we are always here to address any concerns.* IMO hopefully that is their intent The letter is sincere. FYI I am sure others will receive replies.


The Fox interview will be used by AR groups to legislate against the ecollar. AKC may not be seeking to ban it, but it is very powerful ammunition for those that do.


----------



## steveMO

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Folks received a reply from a Chris Walker AKC after Email Mr. Sprung's office. They are not seeking a ban on collars. *Therefore we thought it best to promote efforts like CGC and PR, as we think that is what is best for the inexperienced dog owner and the general public as a whole.*
> This is their goal and it makes sense. As for performance events *be assured we stand behind our people who compete in performance events and we are always here to address any concerns.* IMO hopefully that is their intent The letter is sincere. FYI I am sure others will receive replies.



Talk is cheap. The AKC is now into damage control after the trashing of ecollars by an ignorant employee who should rightly be fired. And this goes way beyond "performance sports". How many dogs have died or been lost due to their owners not being able to stop them from chasing cars or deer, or just bolting in a suburban area? Does the AKC contend a cookie would have stopped them?


----------



## JS

Thomas D said:


> It is being handled at some of the highest levels of AKC.





HPL said:


> Sarcasm can be hard to detect on the net. Should there have been a ;-) after your post?


I'm not sure what Tom D knows or is talking about but I stand by my first gut reaction ... this "VP" is not speaking formally for AKC but is just a rogue who stumbled across a chance to voice her personal opinions on national TV.

Lucky for her, she was invited to do that on the "fair and balanced" channel who happens to be skilled and experienced in interrupting and talking over the top of those "guests" with opinions they don't like. ;-)

JMO

JS


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

HPL said:


> If that is truly their policy, they need to go back on FOX and several other news providers and retract that woman's statement and clarify their position, perhaps giving a professional trainer time to explain the proper use of e-collars.


If you listen to her carefully Mrs. DiNardo does not say ban the collar I don't think IMO. It was the announcer. Mrs. DiNardo is trying to push AKC programs and wants what is best for the pet dog owners. Treats and cuddly things. My dogs would love. She also states there are better methods in her opinion to train dogs. She suggests the Canine Good Neighbor Citizen course for pet owners. 
Now having said that in her defense I agree with you. AKC needs to retract and to make a statement publically stating their position IMHO and Mrs. DiNardo and some others need to be well versed in appropriate use of the collar.IMHO As obviously it appears to be all over the news. Must have been a slow news week? Remember I believe the study came out of England so what do you expect?IMO


----------



## Bridget Bodine

Russ said:


> The Fox interview will be used by AR groups to legislate against the ecollar. AKC may not be seeking to ban it, but it is very powerful ammunition for those that do.


EXACTLY my thoughts...careful what ammo you hand out AKC


----------



## MSDOGS1976

I swear, I bet this lady sets a plate at her dining table so her dog can eat with the rest of the family. 

I'm certainly not for hurting animals, but her stance doesn't cut it with a lot of daily needs. I installed a simple Walmart invisible fence with low shocking ability and it worked like a charm for keeping my old golden retriever in the backyard. I'm sure she would say a several thousand dollar wood fence would be more appropriate. Recently I bought a Garmin no-bark collar for my lab. I take him on trips to my coastal condo and I needed away to make sure he didn't bark while I was gone. Because he would and did. The garmin collar also worked like a charm. Just after a couple of days, no more barking and he is the same old laid back dog with no issues. There may be ways to train a dog not to bark when the owner is not home, but the no-bark collar is the most reliable way to do it.


----------



## steve schreiner

Bridget Bodine said:


> EXACTLY my thoughts...careful what ammo you hand out AKC


How many of you will quit training dogs if there is ever a ban on using the collar..? Steve S


----------



## jd6400

steve schreiner said:


> How many of you will quit training dogs if there is ever a ban on using the collar..? Steve S


Or how many could get results without the use of the e collar? Jim


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

steveMO said:


> Talk is cheap. The AKC is now into damage control after the trashing of ecollars by an ignorant employee who should rightly be fired. And this goes way beyond "performance sports". How many dogs have died or been lost due to their owners not being able to stop them from chasing cars or deer, or just bolting in a suburban area? Does the AKC contend a cookie would have stopped them?


 The cookie would turn my dog's head. But you are correct and I am not disagreeing with all the comments.I don't think she should be fired but spoken to and I am almost certain that will happen. I also think she is very ignorant about the ramifications of her remarks are going to cause from the members of AKC. I am just stating but IMO this bears watching until AKC makes a public statement on their position to rectify what has been done.


----------



## Bob Glover

afdahl said:


> Pat, thanks for sharing the letter. I find it very discouraging. IMO the best method for training a pet dog is the one the owner is able to employ. I deal with a lot of owners that are very frustrated by positive reinforcement training. The method may work on dogs when applied by an expert, but it is too technical and detailed for a lot of owners.
> 
> Amy Dahl


Amy,
What type of training do you recommend for ordinary pet owners, besides positive reinforcement training? Can they combine positive reinforcement training with traditional correction training? Most pet owners don't want to spend the money for an e-collar and don't have the expertise to use it and don't understand dog thinking anyway.


----------



## polmaise

Bob Glover said:


> What type of training do you recommend for ordinary pet owners,
> Most pet owners don't want to spend the money for an e-collar and don't have the expertise to use it and don't understand dog thinking anyway.


A goldfish!


----------



## polmaise

steve schreiner said:


> How many of you will quit training dogs if there is ever a ban on using the collar..? Steve S


Almost all but none if they are in the game ! You can understand my reply if you were in a country that already has the situation you describe?
All of Europe still train dogs  ..and the rest of the world !.


----------



## Good Dogs

Watching Fox News makes you stupid. Appearing on Fox News makes you really, really stupid.


----------



## badbullgator

Bob Glover said:


> Amy,
> What type of training do you recommend for ordinary pet owners, besides positive reinforcement training? Can they combine positive reinforcement training with traditional correction training? Most pet owners don't want to spend the money for an e-collar and don't have the expertise to use it and don't understand dog thinking anyway.



In my book there are three kinds of training positive reenforcement, negative reenforcement, and attrition. You have to have all three in your box to train a good dog.


----------



## Marissa E.

The countries that banned e-collars... Do they train their military dogs without them also?
Just curious! Seems like if I had bullets flying around my head and bombs benieth my feet I would hope I had more than cookies to rely on. Lol


----------



## RJG

I agree with you, Corey. And 'negative' for a pet dog can be as simple as a firm "no". 
I thought it was interesting that they had two lap dogs onstage -- not a Labrador, Pointer, German Shepherd, Golden, etc. 
Why would you ever need an e collar on a pet dog you can just pick up?

Plus, I'd love to see their "solely positively trained" dog return reliably when at 100 yards or more...
Also - I don't think the young man they had was the best representative to explain the positive aspects of training a canine athlete with the judicious and experienced use of an e-collar (the term shock collar is so purposely sensationalist) - not that they let him get a word in. 
All in all - the whole thing looked like a set up from the start. It made me appalled to watch.


----------



## polmaise

Marissa E. said:


> The countries that banned e-collars... Do they train their military dogs without them also?
> Just curious! Seems like if I had bullets flying around my head and bombs benieth my feet I would hope I had more than cookies to rely on. Lol


No ...But yes in public ...
Ain't this a ****ty democracy ?


----------



## Marissa E.

polmaise said:


> No ...But yes in public ...
> Ain't this a ****ty democracy ?


Thank you. I was really wanting to know this answer.
However I do understand not a lot of dogs see or go through what military working dogs do....
Just want to emphasize that I'm not comparing pets to military dogs lol


----------



## Julie R.

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> I don't think she should be fired but spoken to and I am almost certain that will happen. I also think she is very ignorant about the ramifications of her remarks are going to cause from the members of AKC. I am just stating but IMO this bears watching until AKC makes a public statement on their position to rectify what has been done.


That DiNardi woman DOES need to be fired. She stood up there and made it look like the AKC will support a ban on ecollars, not to mention interrupting the one guy there who might have been able to show collar training in a more positive light. She sounded like a pinko, commie PETA spy. PETA and their ilk probably gave her talking points before she went on stage. No one from AKC is going on national news to say she was wrong and AKC does in fact, promote use of the "shock" collar (as she so PETA-ly called it) and maybe we do not even want them to, especially after that fiasco yesterday. There's no real way to undo the damage she just did so usher her arse out the door. She'll probably have a job waiting at PETA and/or H$U$ that even pays better.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Julie R. said:


> That DiNardi woman DOES need to be fired. She stood up there and made it look like the AKC will support a ban on ecollars, not to mention interrupting the one guy there who might have been able to show collar training in a more positive light. She sounded like a pinko, commie PETA spy. PETA and their ilk probably gave her talking points before she went on stage. No one from AKC is going on national news to say she was wrong and AKC does in fact, promote use of the "shock" collar (as she so PETA-ly called it) and maybe we do not even want them to, especially after that fiasco yesterday. There's no real way to undo the damage she just did so usher her arse out the door. She'll probably have a job waiting at PETA and/or H$U$ that even pays better.


 WOW!!!! Okay Julie


----------



## Liv2Hnt

Mary Lynn. I disagree with your interpretation of her interview. I actually rewound and watched it twice. The underlying themes which she repeated and indicated were the AKC's position, is that the AKC is for the health and wellbeing of the dogs and that "shock" collars did not fall in to that category. Nothing came off as her opinion, but rather that she was speaking on behalf of the AKC and supported the results of the study, which called for the ban. I know people are free to translate/interpret differently, but in my opinion the statements made were completely out of line and should be retracted. I have posted to the AKC website and sent emails. I have received no response.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Liv2Hnt said:


> Mary Lynn. I disagree with your interpretation of her interview. I actually rewound and watched it twice. The underlying themes which she repeated and indicated were the AKC's position, is that the AKC is for the health and wellbeing of the dogs and that "shock" collars did not fall in to that category. Nothing came off as her opinion, but rather that she was speaking on behalf of the AKC and supported the results of the study, which called for the ban. I know people are free to translate/interpret differently, but in my opinion the statements made were completely out of line and should be retracted. I have posted to the AKC website and sent emails. I have received no response.


Agree there should be some statement, retraction from AKC on their position.


----------



## huntinman

RJG said:


> I agree with you, Corey. And 'negative' for a pet dog can be as simple as a firm "no".
> I thought it was interesting that they had two lap dogs onstage -- not a Labrador, Pointer, German Shepherd, Golden, etc.
> Why would you ever need an e collar on a pet dog you can just pick up?
> 
> Plus, I'd love to see their "solely positively trained" dog return reliably when at 100 yards or more...
> Also - *I don't think the young man they had was the best representative to explain the positive aspects of training a canine athlete with the judicious and experienced use of an e-collar* (the term shock collar is so purposely sensationalist) - not that they let him get a word in.
> All in all - the whole thing looked like a set up from the start. It made me appalled to watch.



I looked him up... He is a trainer in LA. He uses Dogtra and what used to be the Einstein collars. If you look at his rates and testimonials... I think he's doing just fine. Been in business a while. He was just at a disadvantage, not being in the studio...


----------



## Irishwhistler

Here's an interesting question. How much is VP Di Nardo paid annually to step in $hit, promote lies, and alienate numerous supporters of the AKC? AGAIN, AKC needs to be held accountable in making clear their position on this matter, to all of us that support AKC programs and events. They also NEED TO FIRE VP Di Nardo for gross incompetence. There is also the lingering possibility that she was sent to do that interview by somebody further up the "fool chain" ( yes, I said fool chain ), and she is either being hung out to dry, or retained because she is taking the heat in protecting somebody above her, in which case she will NOT be terminated.

As others have stated, if terminated she will likely end up working for HSUS or PETA. She has probably already been fitted for a "bunny suit" for those high profile "activist" assignments.

Annoyed,
IRISHWHISTLER


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## BJGatley

steve schreiner said:


> How many of you will quit training dogs if there is ever a ban on using the collar..? Steve S


That is not fair and I believe you know that. We are dog folks and our voice sez a lot.


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## badbullgator

I think this lady should be sent a one year old untrained Chessy. Give her three months and see if she still wants to ban collars and 2x4's.


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## Colonel Blimp

> The countries that banned e-collars... Do they train their military dogs without them also?


Don't know. But I can tell you for a fact that electric fences are still lawful in Wales and they still work very well as I found out last night coming back from rabbiting. It wasn't there on the way out but it sure was on the way back; neighbour Joe had shifted it in his pony paddock and I didn't see the bugger in the gloom. Mains powered too they don't half kick; that's the last time he borrows my angle grinder the big horses aspect.

Eug

PS I thought the young guy did his best in a hostile and unfamiliar environment. All the big outfits I worked for had people who were both telegenic and above all trained to do TV work. It does throw up the question of who should speak for working dog trainers in the US if the AKC doesn't. BASC in the UK are media savvy and usually the first port of call that TV outfits turn to in matters like this; see the link.


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## mmrobinsonontheroad

Good Dogs said:


> Watching Fox News makes you stupid. Appearing on Fox News makes you really, really stupid.


In the spirit of this being a serious debate about a serious topic, perhaps you should save this type of fatuous comment for POTUS.


----------



## DoubleHaul

Marissa E. said:


> The countries that banned e-collars... Do they train their military dogs without them also?
> Just curious! Seems like if I had bullets flying around my head and bombs benieth my feet I would hope I had more than cookies to rely on. Lol


K2 has/had a big contract for the UK military, so perhaps they just outsource it?


----------



## Alain

Newf said:


> Just a couple months ago I brought up the fact that this stuff was on the horizon here in Canada, and as I understand it, it did gain some ground in Quebec, however it was somewhat pushed aside. No doubt we are facing some serious issues regarding the use of collars both sides of the borders. Maybe we should all band together and form some sort of Retriever/Gun Dog association to promote and give us as trainers a stronger voice in the downward spiral of misinformation and political correctness we are all facing.
> 
> We would have to try to get NAHRA, HRC, UKC, Dogtra, Garmin, etc. All on board with it though. Personally I wouldn't know where to begin to start that sort of thing, but i'm tossing the idea out there...


Love they idea!
Just watch the video, she is wrong saying that some place in Canada the E.C. is ban!
This lobby is very strong, we have be aware!


----------



## Alain

HPL said:


> If that is truly their policy, they need to go back on FOX and several other news providers and retract that woman's statement and clarify their position, perhaps giving a professional trainer time to explain the proper use of e-collars.


You are totally right!


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## Marlaina

I was appalled at Gina DiNardo stance on the remote collar, or should I say, "shawk collah". The AKC allows it's field competitors to use these collars consistently. However, according to a 'backpeddling' reply from Chris Walker, they don't advocate them for pet dogs because they believe all pet dogs can be trained with treats, a clicker and a buckle collar. I am a trainer. I've worked with many 'pet' dogs with high prey drive that could give a hoot about the steak in your hand when you try to call them off a deer, rabbit, squirrel or another dog. I've had clients come to me in tears because their dogs no longer respond to food rewards. To make such a generalized statement that all pet dogs can be trained with one method is irresponsible and dangerous. Pet dogs lunge, pull, run into the street, chase cars, attack other dogs, bite people. Of course, DiNardo sat there there with her little lap dogs because had she brought out a large dog on a leash, her 'points' would have gone down the toilet. I've waited for years to just once see the progression of a large, aggressive, high prey drive dog being trained to reliability with a clicker and treats. I'm still waiting.


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## Marlaina

Everyone should write to them. I did. Hundreds of other trainers and field competitors did as well.


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## Don Lietzau

Marlaina said:


> Everyone should write to them. I did. Hundreds of other trainers and field competitors did as well.


Agree and if I did not see the response I want I would walk away from AKC in a short mark minute. Not support them and give them none of my money. I am just like that. 
Don


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## Good Dogs

Marlaina said:


> . The AKC allows it's field competitors to use these collars consistently. However, according to a 'backpeddling' reply from Chris Walker, they don't advocate them for pet dogs because they believe all pet dogs can be trained with treats, a clicker and a buckle collar.


Who is Chris Walker and can you post the reply? Question is still what is AKC's official position, if any. 
I sent Ms Dinardo an email asking if her opinions reflected AKC official policy and, if so, how that policy was determined. Will post any reply here.


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## JS

Good Dogs said:


> Who is Chris Walker and can you post the reply? Question is still what is AKC's official position, if any.
> I sent Ms Dinardo an email asking if her opinions reflected AKC official policy and, if so, how that policy was determined. Will post any reply here.


See post #67

JS


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## DoubleHaul

JS said:


> See post #67
> 
> JS


That seems to be the standard reply--same one that i and a couple of others I know received.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

This is the letter I received. 

Hi MaryLynn,

I just wanted too reach out and assure you that the AKC is not seeking a ban on ecollars. The segment yesterday was for the general public more so than the experienced trainer and competitor. Therefore we thought it best to promote efforts like CGC and PR, as we think that is what is best for the inexperienced dog owner and the general public as a whole.

I hope this didn't cause too much distress but be assured we stand behind our people who compete in performance events and we are always here to address any concerns.

Thank you for reaching out.

Chris


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## Glenda Brown

The AKC is replying with that form letter. 

Years ago, in Front and Finish, one of the top obedience trainers of that era decided to use positive training only on a dog for obedience competition. We got monthly updates on the progress. This was a trainer who had put an OTCH title on innumerable dogs---but "positive only" had just come into vogue. It was all sweetness and light until she actually took the dog into an obedience ring in competition. All of a sudden, no one heard anything more about the dog or the experiment. A total news blackout!

I have literally been around thousands of dogs and the only dog that ever bit me was trained by its owner (a neighbor) who used positive only methods. I was walking down a path and her dog came bursting through her hedge and grabbed my leg. As it was clinging to my leg with its very sharp teeth, the owner tried to reason with it, using a very sweet tone of voice, and it didn't seem to quickly respond. I ended up in the Emergency Room and still have the scars. It probably got a cookie and a "good dog" in exchange for finally letting go. 

I asked the AKC to make a public statement telling us exactly where it stands with regard to the statements made on this t.v. program. In addition, I suggested possibly Ms. diNardo should return to Fox News and point out that those were her own views based on her own substantial research into various training methods, her vast experience in training dogs successfully to major titles in all AKC venues (conformation and Junior Showmanship don't count), and indicate the sources and back up data for the statements she made. Even if this piece was aimed at pets and pet owners, no one should give advice on training without having the resume to support the statements made. Being a VP for the AKC does not necessarily give you the credentials to give advice on a subject without your having worked in the trenches yourself at one time. 

I don't believe in the use of electric collars by dog trainers unskilled and untrained in their use. I do believe there should be consequences if a dog disobeys a known command. It does not have to be harsh but it does need to convey that form of behavior is unacceptable.

As Russ said --- what ammunition for the AR crowd.

Glenda


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## alynn

The best thing we can do is write the AKC a thoughtful letter. About 3 minutes of time on The Google ) will provide you with a bunch of good contacts. I sent my letter to Ms. DiNardo, her direct supervisor, the AKC pres, the heads of performance events and Jerry Mann. On top of that I copied my breed club (GRCA).


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## Marvin S

Glenda Brown said:


> The AKC is replying with that form letter.
> 
> As Russ said --- what ammunition for the AR crowd.
> 
> Glenda


At our last city council meeting a lady made a presentation to ban breed specific legislation, AKA Pit Bull ordinances -
Other than myself, no one on the council owns a dog or is familiar with animals in general, but they are in charge .
After the meeting I talked to the lady & you could see that she was a person with a cause & not someone knowledgeable
about animals - those are the people, both in authority & the proponents, that you deal with - anyone here who thinks 
AKC cares one whit about this needs to face reality - this is the group that allows weird breeds recognition for the revenue
they hope it will bring into their coffers - when OB classes went away from the Blanche Saunders method of OB training 
you could see this coming. There are a lot of hippie dogs out there that fit the description that Glenda provided. 

I would suggest contacting Doug Ljundgren, AKC Performance events, he owned Wire Haired pointers & won 3 National 
Championships with them. They boarded at our kennel & I find it hard to believe they were exclusively treat trained . 
Really really nice dogs.


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## blazengr

achiro said:


> And a title


And probably a six-digit salary.


----------



## JKOttman

Anyone think it makes sense to encourage the AKC to "clear up" their stance by also communicating with Fox News?

Oops sorry, just saw Glenda's great post!


----------



## Good Dogs

JS said:


> See post #67
> 
> JS


Thanks ......


----------



## dorkweed

Years ago when my Dad and I used to do the pointer and setter horseback field trials we knew an "old timer" that said this............................*"Give the AKC enough time and they'll **** up any breed!!!"*

Those words have stuck with me my entire life regarding the AKC.


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## Hunt'EmUp

I doubt they do anything, but pounding them with letters etc. being angry and annoying; Does let them know they have made a mistake, and perhaps they might think a bit before they put another idiot on TV, weighing in on stuff she knows nothing about, that just might affect a large portion of their membership. Not the first time AKC has done something really stupid by participating in a _unbiased_ news debate, probably not the last time either. I wonder if we will get a nice letter this time, akin to the one sent out when they were made a fool of by the unbiased news attempting to debate the HSUS .


----------



## Evan

I could only stand reading just so much of this. I realize the AKC has some lobbying weight, but they don't make laws or ratify them. Who is it we really need to petition, or is this actually a threat? Who will pass the laws banning e-collars? Aren't congressional mid terms coming up?

Evan


----------



## HPL

Evan said:


> I could only stand reading just so much of this. I realize the AKC has some lobbying weight, but they don't make laws or ratify them. Who is it we really need to petition, or is this actually a threat? Who will pass the laws banning e-collars? Aren't congressional mid terms coming up?
> 
> Evan


I can't see this as a National issue and certainly not something I want my rep or senators worrying about at this point. It will start as a state issue, or even perhaps a local issue (like leash laws and breed specific regulations) most likely somewhere like Ca., Co., or in the liberal NE.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Evan said:


> I could only stand reading just so much of this. I realize the AKC has some lobbying weight, but they don't make laws or ratify them. Who is it we really need to petition, or is this actually a threat? Who will pass the laws banning e-collars? Aren't congressional mid terms coming up?
> 
> Evan


That is a good question Evan b/c we can't use the collar at any trial or test now? That is a rule.


----------



## Russ

Evan said:


> I could only stand reading just so much of this. I realize the AKC has some lobbying weight, but they don't make laws or ratify them. Who is it we really need to petition, or is this actually a threat? Who will pass the laws banning e-collars? Aren't congressional mid terms coming up?


There is no pending legislation banning ecollars that I am aware, but I would not surprised to see such laws proposed in the coming months. The first attempts will likely be made at the local level and build from there. The AKC's public stance so far will not help our cause and I highly doubt if they would take an active part in any attempt to stop the banning of ecollars.


----------



## truka

Just received the following email from an AKC email blast:


Dear Trudie Kuka,

On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.

The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.

When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.

We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.

Sincerely,
James Crowley, Executive Secretary
American Kennel Club

- Trudie


----------



## Laurie McCain

I also just received the above email. 

Laurie


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## Mary Lynn Metras

Just received this letter



Dear Mary Metras,

On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.

The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.

When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.

We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.

Sincerely,
James Crowley, Executive Secretary
American Kennel Club


----------



## windycanyon

Me too....  I'm saving it to pass along to the anti Collar (prong and ecollar) nazis of my one obedience club....


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## Old School Labs

Also received AKC email letter, and see that they are stating they do support the e-collar training with proper usage.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Just received this letter
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Mary Metras,
> 
> On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.
> 
> The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.
> 
> When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.
> 
> We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.
> 
> Sincerely,
> James Crowley, Executive Secretary
> American Kennel Club


Did not see the letter above. They must be Emailing them out now. I have been cleaning all day as it has been raining again! My mind is dusty! On Facebook there are also a number of notes. Some are in favor of positive but most for collar. Good comments.


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## Lady Duck Hunter

Is no one concerned with the part when he says, "It is our opinion that when placed in the hands informed hands of *professionals, *e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs....." (The bold type was my emphasis.) 

There are many amateur trainers who are experienced enough to understand the proper use of the tool and I resent the implication that you must offer a paid service to be able to handle using an e-collar.


----------



## Glenda Brown

The AKC must have been feeling the heat from all the adverse responses as I cannot imagine them doing this otherwise. I saw numerous comments on obedience forums as well as field forums, and have been getting a lot of private e-mails asking for letters to be sent to AKC regarding the subject. Also heard (not verified but through the grapevine) that Garmin and Tritronics had some discussions with the AKC as well.

Evan -- I live in California and we are in a constant battle with the AR groups with regard to what we can do and cannot do with our dogs. We went through a horrendous battle to prevent mandatory spay and neuter. I must have a signed form from my vet saying I spoke to her about not-neuturing my dog in order to have an unneutured dog in my area. I had to do this for each dog I have. Our local newspaper has a column written by PETA featured on a regular basis. Anything, such as Ms diNardo did only gives them grist for their mill. It does not have to be Federal, we have problems locally and then state wide---- and then it spreads!

Glenda


----------



## Hunt'EmUp

Evan said:


> I could only stand reading just so much of this. I realize the AKC has some lobbying weight, but they don't make laws or ratify them. Who is it we really need to petition, or is this actually a threat? Who will pass the laws banning e-collars? Aren't congressional mid terms coming up?
> 
> Evan


Everything starts with something. The most noteworthy kennel club in the United States going on record as being against the use of e-collars is not something good for those of us that do use them and provides ammunition to those who would like to see such tools abolished. The AKC is a highly respected public source on all things dog, their comments and opinions shape, view points. I'm sure the trainers in Europe said much the same, this will never happen, where's the threat, we'll just let this one go, etc. Yet public opinion drove legislation, that got passed and now they can't utilize e-collars. There's no need for an organization who is supposed to support and protect all the various aspect of purebred dogs, to aid those who would see it dismantled, which is what such public comments published under the AKC organizational banner ends up doing.


----------



## Renee P.

Did anyone read the research paper that inspired the Fox piece? It was a 5 day study in which they burned one group of dogs on day one for approaching livestock. Then they return the dogs to their untrained human owners, who did not know how to use the collar, and concluded that the ecollar was not any more effective than the other methods they tried in their 5 day study.

I'm oversimplifying of course but certainly they not do enough training to conclude anything about the effectiveness of the ecollar!

Here is the link to the study: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0102722


----------



## Vintageduckchucker

Also recieved this letter. The failure of Ms. Dinardo (exec Vp w/AKC) to clarify the AKC position was a gross failure in communication!


----------



## Renee P.

I didn't pay much attention to this thread till I got the email from the AKC. So I go and watch the video, this is what that lady said:

"The American Kennel Club wants what’s best for dogs, and what’s best for dogs is happy, healthy well trained dogs responsible owners and there are better training methods than using shock collars. Shock collars can cause stress, distress, sometimes pain. Used inappropriately they can prevent dogs from even being receptive to other training methods in the future. And in worse case scenario the dog might even become aggressive...."​
This is a pretty extreme position!

What is the public view of the competitors of AKC? Anyone know?


----------



## Evan

Glenda Brown said:


> Evan -- I live in California and we are in a constant battle with the AR groups with regard to what we can do and cannot do with our dogs. We went through a horrendous battle to prevent mandatory spay and neuter. I must have a signed form from my vet saying I spoke to her about not-neuturing my dog in order to have an unneutured dog in my area. I had to do this for each dog I have. Our local newspaper has a column written by PETA featured on a regular basis. Anything, such as Ms diNardo did only gives them grist for their mill. It does not have to be Federal, we have problems locally and then state wide---- and then it spreads!
> 
> Glenda


I know Glenda. I'm originally a Long Beach kid. I'm amazed at how long retriever people have stayed afloat in the people's republic of California. But it doesn't sound like the AKC blather has legs yet. I suppose it's a matter of time, but we don't really know how much time.

Evan


----------



## achiro

Anyone that is ok with that AKC response, didn't read it thoroughly.


----------



## HPL

Sending a form letter to all those who have contacted them is NOT ENOUGH. They need to go back on TV (several programs) and CLEARLY state the position that they are taking in the form letter. The folks who are either pro e-collar or pro choice are getting the letter, but the folks that would be attempting to prevent the use of the collars and those that might have been swayed by the interview are not and THEY (esp the second group) are the ones that NEED to hear what the letter is asserting is the AKC position.


----------



## Don Smith

Perhaps Mr. Crowley should read a transcript of Ms. DiNardo's (the AKC spokesperson's} comments, specifically when she said, "...and there are better training methods than using shock collars. Shock collars can cause stress, distress, sometimes pain. Used inappropriately, they can prevent dogs from even being receptive to other training methods in the future and in a worse case scenario the dog might even become aggressive, so we believe in using positive reinforcement as a training method." At no point did she say anything consistent with AKC's position. No one can dispute that e-collars are not appropriate for use by the inexperienced (or the inresponsible), but Ms. DiNardo didn't say that and, in fact, didn't say anything even remotely close to AKC's "opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field." Instead, the impression left with the uninformed public by Ms. DiNardo is that AKC is totally opposed to the use of e-collars, that they are cruel and that, by extension, anyone who uses one is being inhumane. In my opinion, AKC should PUBLICLY correct the damage to the reputations of thousands of highly competent and experience dog trainers.


----------



## achiro

It's really not that hard. She could have said, "listen, the e-collar is a very effective and efficient tool when used correctly and by someone who has taken the time to educate themselves in it's uses. We at the AKC know that many people won't have the time or maybe even the desire to learn how to use it so we offer the following classes..."
BUT she DIDN'T!


----------



## JettaJens

I just heard about this because I received an e-mail from the AKC "apologizing" for any misunderstanding regarding their position on e-collars. They are now trying to distinguish between "performance/competitive dog owners" and "regular pet owners", so I guess their position has evolved to, "e-collars are okay for performance/competitive owners, but your average pet owner should stick to treats." I hope the AKC understands that "average pet owners" don't really care that much about their organization. Performance dog owners are far more likely to contribute to the AKC PAC (yes, the AKC also sends me e-mails asking for money so that they can lobby politicians to "help" dog enthusiasts).

If the AKC starts evolving to be more like "animal rights" organizations, it will hurt them financially and in other ways. How much revenue does the AKC generate every year from Master Nationals and Hunt Tests? If the "animal rights" community knew that these tests require the shooting of live birds, they would go ape sh*t. The AKC should exist to support responsible breeding, events/training, etc. Most animal rights groups are opposed to intentional breeding and push people to spay/neuter and adopt shelter dogs. If you eliminate responsible breeding and everyone adopts a mutt from the shelter, there is really no need for an organization like the AKC at all.

Also, e-collars are typically marketed to hunters, performance/competitive owners, and pros anyway because people who fall into these categories want results. Used properly, the e-collars will deliver results. If you use positive training techniques exclusively (especially treats), results are varied at best and the dog's obedience is dependent on a reward. I worked for a reputable service dog organization. They had an excellent breeding program and an EXCLUSIVELY positive training program. They definitely relied heavily on treats for training (especially in young dogs). Only about 30% of their dogs became guides. 30%!!!!! Can the average hunter/performance owner afford to discard 7 out of 10 dogs? Could a pro trainer tell a client that there's only a 30% chance their dog will be properly trained after spending thousands of dollars?

Every dog is different and, for some dogs, an e-collar is the only way to achieve obedience. The AKC had an opportunity to go on _Fox and Friends_ and encourage pet owners to get involved with their local clubs to learn more about new and innovative training methods. They could have said that using an e-collar requires some knowledge or training and it's best to contact your local club, get involved with events, or seek out a professional trainer for help.


----------



## JettaJens

Lady Duck Hunter said:


> Is no one concerned with the part when he says, "It is our opinion that when placed in the hands informed hands of *professionals, *e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs....." (The bold type was my emphasis.)
> 
> There are many amateur trainers who are experienced enough to understand the proper use of the tool and I resent the implication that you must offer a paid service to be able to handle using an e-collar.


The AKC should remember that amateurs contribute a tremendous amount of money to their organization. If the AKC decides to focus on the interests of professional trainers and "animal rights activists" at the expense of amateur handlers, perhaps the amateurs should focus more of their attention (and $) on NAHRA Hunt Tests.


----------



## JettaJens

Glenda Brown said:


> The AKC is replying with that form letter.
> 
> Years ago, in Front and Finish, one of the top obedience trainers of that era decided to use positive training only on a dog for obedience competition. We got monthly updates on the progress. This was a trainer who had put an OTCH title on innumerable dogs---but "positive only" had just come into vogue. It was all sweetness and light until she actually took the dog into an obedience ring in competition. All of a sudden, no one heard anything more about the dog or the experiment. A total news blackout!
> 
> I have literally been around thousands of dogs and the only dog that ever bit me was trained by its owner (a neighbor) who used positive only methods. I was walking down a path and her dog came bursting through her hedge and grabbed my leg. As it was clinging to my leg with its very sharp teeth, the owner tried to reason with it, using a very sweet tone of voice, and it didn't seem to quickly respond. I ended up in the Emergency Room and still have the scars. It probably got a cookie and a "good dog" in exchange for finally letting go.
> 
> *I asked the AKC to make a public statement telling us exactly where it stands with regard to the statements made on this t.v. program. In addition, I suggested possibly Ms. diNardo should return to Fox News and point out that those were her own views based on her own substantial research into various training methods, her vast experience in training dogs successfully to major titles in all AKC venues (conformation and Junior Showmanship don't count), and indicate the sources and back up data for the statements she made. Even if this piece was aimed at pets and pet owners, no one should give advice on training without having the resume to support the statements made. Being a VP for the AKC does not necessarily give you the credentials to give advice on a subject without your having worked in the trenches yourself at one time.*
> 
> I don't believe in the use of electric collars by dog trainers unskilled and untrained in their use. I do believe there should be consequences if a dog disobeys a known command. It does not have to be harsh but it does need to convey that form of behavior is unacceptable.
> 
> As Russ said --- what ammunition for the AR crowd.
> 
> Glenda



Well said Glenda! I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen. I think the mea culpa e-mail sent out specifically to performance/competitive owners was about as far as they're willing to go. Unfortunately, the use of e-collars (regardless of the skill or knowledge possessed by the trainer) has become a hot button issue with the "animal rights" community. I think it's easier for the AKC to come out publicly against "shock collars" and then quietly e-mail their supporters with a more detailed viewpoint.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

mitty said:


> Did anyone read the research paper that inspired the Fox piece? It was a 5 day study in which they burned one group of dogs on day one for approaching livestock. Then they return the dogs to their untrained human owners, who did not know how to use the collar, and concluded that the ecollar was not any more effective than the other methods they tried in their 5 day study.
> 
> I'm oversimplifying of course but certainly they not do enough training to conclude anything about the effectiveness of the ecollar!
> 
> Here is the link to the study: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0102722


Thanks Renee. Very interesting. In the article I picked this out:*Following training 92% of owners reported improvements in their dog's referred behaviour, and there was no significant difference in reported efficacy (success, productiveness) across Groups.**Owners of dogs trained using e-collars were less confident of applying the training approach demonstrated. These findings suggest that there is no consistent benefit to be gained from e-collar training but greater welfare concerns compared with positive reward based training.* 92 % had improvements. So did only 8% not train effectively and they conclude the Ecollar is not a good tool???????Some study. And like Renee stated did they know how to utilize the Ecollar??


----------



## Renee P.

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Thanks Renee. Very interesting. In the article I picked this out:*Following training 92% of owners reported improvements in their dog's referred behaviour, and there was no significant difference in reported efficacy (success, productiveness) across Groups.**Owners of dogs trained using e-collars were less confident of applying the training approach demonstrated. These findings suggest that there is no consistent benefit to be gained from e-collar training but greater welfare concerns compared with positive reward based training.* 92 % had improvements. So did only 8% not train effectively and they conclude the Ecollar is not a good tool???????Some study. And like Renee stated did they know how to utilize the Ecollar??


The article kept mentioning the Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association. I looked them up (http://www.ecma.eu.com), quite the eye opener! The way they describe how to use the ecollar is is not at all like our methods. 

All the negative posturing identified in the article (dog clinging to owner after getting nicked for example) is exactly what you'd expect to see in a dog that is either not collar conditioned or doesn't understand the connection between the punishment and its behavior.

Sheesh, no wonder there's so much confusion. Is this a contrast between pet training and performance dog training? Or US vs European methods? I had assumed that folks trained pets with the ecollar the same way we do!

The use of the ecollar described by the ECMA appears to be pure punishment, none of the trained response we go for.


----------



## truthseeker

Get this, I got the same notice that everybody has been getting and sent them nothing. They must be feeling the heat !!!!!.


----------



## Rose's Mom

I got the email as well today, I replied back that Mrs DiNardo needs to step down immediately. She has not said one word about amateur owners, she has not advised people to seek professional training before using an e-collar. She right out said that we (AKC) stand with cookie and clicker training. I advised them that I will not be entering any AKC events until she is fired ... that includes conformation with my flat coat, obedience and field with both my dogs. I can certainly live without the titles.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Just borrowed some statements from the study while I was reading. I don't know that the study really ends up with the correct conclusion? It is much reading but interesting. It was conduct by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs in the UK. At the end of the study I saw many more reports and studies done on the E collar!!!!! It took me quite awhile to get through this one! I suggest everyone have a look at this study. 

The study does says they used professional trainers " Two experienced dog trainers were nominated by The Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association (ECMA) to train dogs in Groups A and B" 

"The e-collar treatment Group (Group A) consisted of dogs referred to professional trainers who were experienced in the use of e-collars to improve off lead recall." 

Dogs had to be 6 months and older with no previous Ecollar exposure! Also "there was either no assessment of dog's sensitivity to electric stimulation prior to training" 

"There were no significant differences in the responses of owners from the 3 Groups. 18 out of 19 owners (94.7%) from Group B reporting improvement in both measures, whereas 18 out of 21 owners (88.5%) of owners who had participated in both Groups A and Group C, considered that their dog's general behaviour had improved."

"19 out of 21 owners (90.5%) from both Groups A and C also considered obedience with respect to the referred behaviour had improved."

"90.2% of owners reported they were satisfied with the training advice they received (Figure 4) and 88.5% indicated that they were continuing to use the trainers' advice both for general dog behaviour and in relation to the problem that was the reason for referral (Figure 5)." 

"There was no evidence of differences between the three training Groups in these measures of satisfaction."

"In the preliminary study, only 1 dog trained for improved recall experienced an approach that was similar to that advocated by collar manufacturers in the UK [16], where the dog's sensitivity to e-collar stimulus was assessed prior to training, and where, during training, this level of stimulation was associated with a pre-warning cue or conditioning stimulus. Under these conditions, the trainer (and dog) had the potential to gain greater control over the situation, since higher order conditioning can be used to build an association between the conditioned stimulus (pre-warning cue) and a verbal command to interrupt ongoing behaviour. Although the application of stimulus was discernable in this dog, its response was mild in comparison to the other dogs observed in the preliminary study."

"Apart from their being some evidence that Group C owners were more confident of applying the approaches they had been shown, there were no differences in owner satisfaction between the training programmes, or in dog's improvement in behaviour. This suggests that the use of e-collars is no more effective than the use of mainly reward based training to improve off lead obedience." 

Excerpts taken from The Welfare Consequences and Efficacy of Training Pet Dogs with Remote Electronic Training Collars in Comparison to Reward Based Training
Jonathan J. Cooper mail, Nina Cracknell, Jessica Hardiman, Hannah Wright, Daniel Mills Published: September 03, 2014DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0102722


----------



## Good Dogs

FWIW, here is my reply to AKC's response letter. bottom line, they need to make an official retraction of Ms DiNardo's remarks and promulgate an official policy endorsing the appropriate use of electronic collars. 

Mr. Walker,

Thanks for your response. I have two observations.
First: In her TV appearance Ms DiNardo made no distinction between the informed and appropriate use of an electronic collar and the possible abusive use by one not so informed. Her statements, and by implication of her position, the policy of AKC, are in support of a general ban on the use of electronic collars and training aides. 
Second: I am an amateur owner, trainer and competitor. I'm working on my 4th master hunter golden retriever. My current older dog is QAA and, at age 6, has qualified for the past 4 master nationals and working on the 5th. And running all age stakes in retriever field trials. My young boy, 16 months old, will be running derby and this past weekend served successfully as test dog in a master test. Your official statement from AKC, identical to that promulgated by Mr. Crowley, states support only for "professional" use of an electronic training collar. I have used an electronic collar to train all of my dogs, as do all of my many amateur trainers and friends, including some who have successfully competed at the national level. Your and Mr. Crowley's statement is an affront and an insult to those many skilled and committed amateur trainers. 

I respectively suggest that AKC has some work to do in an attempt to "unring" this particular bell. I look forward to a published retraction of Ms DiNardo's remarks. And an official statement in support of the informed and appropriate use of electronic collars by those properly trained and schooled in their use, whether professional or committed amateur. 

Thank-you for your consideration. 

Bob Swift


----------



## 2tall

I got the email too. How did they develop this mailing list? Through history of AKC titles? EE? Registrations? If they know how to reach us they also know how many of us there are and how many $ are represented. WTF were they thinking???


----------



## BJGatley

The interview was poor plan. The VP of AKC who represents AKC, did not have her AKC hat on and because of that misrepresented AKC. Damage has been done.
I believe the next step is a petition for an apology from the VP and not from her subordinates. There is no excuse for this and because of this, put dog training back many years…and for what…a couple of minutes of fame?


----------



## Alain

Got the email from AKC with the communication.
I look back again and again @ Ms Dinardo's speech on the video and i read the AKC communication send and to me both don't match for sure and that need to corrected with new appearance by the AKC, and how about having this lady coming back on TV to have her new speech ....then AKC should fire her! 

I'm sure this lobby is very big and work all together no matter were either in US or Canada, has some know here in Québec we had to face a serious challenge about E.C.
that was illegal for a short period of time but got it amended.

Up here we are facing this positive trainer lobby heavily.......those trainer got the support of all veterinarian and many of those trainer are match (work) for those big clinic has a reference to help dog owners.....
I have the feeling that this lobby won't give up till it happen....and they work on all group...vet, AKC / CKC ......
They know they have the people, the vet., the trend and mostly they know that all those people don't know much about dog training and benefit of who would prefer to give a shock collar rather then a cookie......

We all know the benefit of the E.C. when properly use, we all do! 

I just wish we could make a match up live on TV from 2 top dog trainers in both there ways of training, and place them leash free with many distraction situation.
I have many times offered this to those + trainers and NO one wanted to match up...... wonder why!

I have the feeling that they know when well use this is a fabulous tools and that could make there method not that great.


----------



## Waterdogs

I got the same letter but that is such BS because most of the good obedience trainers are using collars. Sit means Sit they are franchise and they use the collar. I really wish their was someone else to give my business to besides AKC.


----------



## Rose's Mom

Three to six months with no AKC entries and emails to AKC will open their eyes and Mrs Dinardo can become the cookie training VP. 

I can only imagine her running after her dog with a cookie in one hand and a clicker in the other as the dog chases a deer or a squirrel dragging the leash behind.


----------



## Julie R.

I sent an email and got the form reply from Chris. This was my response to the form letter:



> This damn form letter is NOT satisfactory either to me, or to a large
> group of other retriever people. While the AKC might not endorse
> banning ecollars, to the general dog owning public Ms. DiNardo sure
> made it seem like they will, calling them cruel and referring to a
> bogus study done in the U.K. (where they are banned as is fox hunting
> and other sports we are still able to enjoy nere, NO thanks to the
> AKC.
> 
> Heck, she might as well have been the poster child for PETA and the
> HSUS. I get your point but she could have done a fine job of reaching
> out to the general pet owning public without trashing use of the
> ecollar.
> 
> I think she needs to be fired. What she did was provide fodder for
> every animal rights activist to jump on a new bandwagon: Ban the
> ecollar! Stop the cruelty! (eye roll). You guys are very naïve if you
> think you did not just do immeasurable damage. Not only that as I
> pointed out in my first missive, she was incredibly rude to the one
> person on that one sided panel who might have mititgated some of the
> damage from her animal rights activist spiel. She never let him finish
> a sentence!
> 
> FIRE HER


----------



## Sharon Potter

I would really, really, REALLY love to debate Ms. Dinardo. On TV. Pleasepleaseplease.....


----------



## Evan

Sharon Potter said:


> I would really, really, REALLY love to debate Ms. Dinardo. On TV. Pleasepleaseplease.....


I know exactly how you feel! The guy tried, but he allowed the discussion to be conducted on her terms. He never really got his case started.

Evan


----------



## Bridget Bodine

Sharon Potter said:


> I would really, really, REALLY love to debate Ms. Dinardo. On TV. Pleasepleaseplease.....


Heck !!! I would PAY to sit in on that one!!


----------



## Bill Billups

I got the form letter. It's not even close to being a satisfactory response. It disappoints me that the money I've spent with AKC actually helped pay for that woman to push her PETA agenda


----------



## Purpledawg

Mr. Strung is on Twitter...very easy to find if you use his name and akc


----------



## fetchtx

I am sure our government can give the AKC referral numbers of the experts available to scrub all emails from their computers.


----------



## Good Dogs

Good Dogs said:


> FWIW, here is my reply to AKC's response letter. bottom line, they need to make an official retraction of Ms DiNardo's remarks and promulgate an official policy endorsing the appropriate use of electronic collars.
> 
> Mr. Walker,
> 
> Thanks for your response. I have two observations.
> First: In her TV appearance Ms DiNardo made no distinction between the informed and appropriate use of an electronic collar and the possible abusive use by one not so informed. Her statements, and by implication of her position, the policy of AKC, are in support of a general ban on the use of electronic collars and training aides.
> Second: I am an amateur owner, trainer and competitor. I'm working on my 4th master hunter golden retriever. My current older dog is QAA and, at age 6, has qualified for the past 4 master nationals and working on the 5th. And running all age stakes in retriever field trials. My young boy, 16 months old, will be running derby and this past weekend served successfully as test dog in a master test. Your official statement from AKC, identical to that promulgated by Mr. Crowley, states support only for "professional" use of an electronic training collar. I have used an electronic collar to train all of my dogs, as do all of my many amateur trainers and friends, including some who have successfully competed at the national level. Your and Mr. Crowley's statement is an affront and an insult to those many skilled and committed amateur trainers.
> 
> I respectively suggest that AKC has some work to do in an attempt to "unring" this particular bell. I look forward to a published retraction of Ms DiNardo's remarks. And an official statement in support of the informed and appropriate use of electronic collars by those properly trained and schooled in their use, whether professional or committed amateur.
> 
> Thank-you for your consideration.
> 
> Bob Swift


And Mr. Walker's response:
"Thanks Bob, we will continue to work to get this message out and please continue to provide feedback o our efforts."

So, AKC says they got the message. We'll see what they do about it. I am actually surprised, and pleased, that my inquiry resulted in a prompt response and follow-up. Suggest that if everyone who has posted a complaint on this forum sent their concerns directly to Ms DiNardo or Mr. Crowley they would be more inclined to take some positive steps.


----------



## triple b

Let them go on Fox News and say that. Then ill be happy. They won't do that !!!!


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Alain said:


> Got the email from AKC with the communication.
> I look back again and again @ Ms Dinardo's speech on the video and i read the AKC communication send and to me both don't match for sure and that need to corrected with new appearance by the AKC, and how about having this lady coming back on TV to have her new speech ....then AKC should fire her!
> 
> I'm sure this lobby is very big and work all together no matter were either in US or Canada, has some know here in Québec we had to face a serious challenge about E.C.
> that was illegal for a short period of time but got it amended.
> 
> Up here we are facing this positive trainer lobby heavily.......those trainer got the support of all veterinarian and many of those trainer are match (work) for those big clinic has a reference to help dog owners.....
> I have the feeling that this lobby won't give up till it happen....and they work on all group...vet, AKC / CKC ......
> They know they have the people, the vet., the trend and mostly they know that all those people don't know much about dog training and benefit of who would prefer to give a shock collar rather then a cookie......
> 
> We all know the benefit of the E.C. when properly use, we all do!
> 
> I just wish we could make a match up live on TV from 2 top dog trainers in both there ways of training, and place them leash free with many distraction situation.
> I have many times offered this to those + trainers and NO one wanted to match up...... wonder why!
> 
> I have the feeling that they know when well use this is a fabulous tools and that could make there method not that great.


Alain that would be too simple to show how the collar really works. Good luck in Qu.


----------



## Bridget Bodine

2tall said:


> I got the email too. How did they develop this mailing list? Through history of AKC titles? EE? Registrations? If they know how to reach us they also know how many of us there are and how many $ are represented. WTF were they thinking???


Through everyone who has registered a dog!!


----------



## splashdash

The AKC appears to be willing to work at cross purposes with the retriever community. As a hunt tester there are options in our area. HRC here we come!


----------



## junbe

The Senior Staff at AKC is hired by the BOD at AKC. The day to day operations at AKC are run by staff. They are only accountable to the Board. 
I think more leverage could be put on AKC if you contacted the Board members directly. Below is a list of the current Board members, their terms,
and their emails. We will have elections for Board members at the March 2015 meeting. I do receive solicitations from prospective Board members 
with their concerns and I will ask prospective Board members their positions on this. I think I will recommend sensitivity training for the VP that
was on Fox.

Class of 2015Robert A. Amen, [email protected]
Delegate, Port Chester Obedience Training Club, Inc.
Dr. Carmen L. Battaglia, [email protected]
Delegate, German Shepherd Dog Club of America
Steven D. Gladstone, Esq., [email protected]
Delegate, Greater Naples Dog Club​Class of 2016Patricia M. Cruz, [email protected]
Delegate, Heart of the Plains Kennel Club
William J. Feeney, [email protected]
Delegate, Sir Francis Drake Kennel Club
Thomas Powers, [email protected]
Delegate, Kennel Club of Beverly Hills​Class of 2017Lee Arnold, [email protected]
Delegate, Southern Colorado Kennel Club
Carl C. Ashby, III, [email protected]
Delegate, United States Kerry Blue Terrier Club
Alan Kalter, [email protected]
Delegate, American Bullmastiff Association
Harvey Wooding, [email protected]
Delegate, Westminster Kennel Club​Class of 2018James Dok, [email protected]
Delegate, Gig Harbor Kennel Club
Dr. Charles Garvin, [email protected]
Delegate, Dalmatian Club of America
Ronald Menaker, [email protected]
Delegate, Memphis Kennel Club​*Ex Officio:* Dennis B. Sprung, [email protected]


----------



## Don Smith

Regarding the controversy about the misrepresentations aired by the AKC representative on Fox and Friends last Saturday, I sent to following to Fox & Friends this morning. Let's see if they say anything on the program.

Last Saturday on Fox & Friends Weekend, a debate about dog "shock" collars was aired. The fact is that Gina DiNardo, the American Kennel Club's representative, grossly misrepresented the American Kennel Club's position on the use of such collars and, in so doing, mislead all of your viewers who do not already know the truth about such collars. Yesterday, James Crowley, AKC Executive Secretary, sent a letter out, apparently to all those who participate in AKC's performance events, as I do. Mr. Crowley said, "On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.

The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.

When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.

We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment."

Mr. Crowley's statement of the AKC position is in stark contrast to the statements that Ms. DiNardo made on your program. Among other outrageous, incorrect and comments offensive to thousands of experienced dog trainers who properly use e-collars ("shock" collars as Ms. DiNardo referred to them), she said, "...and there are better training methods than using shock collars. Shock collars can cause stress, distress, sometimes pain. Used inappropriately, they can prevent dogs from even being receptive to other training methods in the future and in a worse case scenario the dog might even become aggressive, so we believe in using positive reinforcement as a training method." At no point did she say anything consistent with AKC's position. No one can dispute that e-collars are not appropriate for use by the inexperienced (or the irresponsible), but Ms. DiNardo didn't say that and, in fact, didn't say anything even remotely close to AKC's "opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field." Instead, the impression left with the uninformed public by Ms. DiNardo is that AKC is totally opposed to the use of e-collars, that they are cruel and that, by extension, anyone who uses one is being inhumane. AKC should PUBLICLY correct the damage to the reputations of thousands of highly competent and experience dog trainers.

I believe it is also important to Fox News' credibility to address Ms. DiNardo having mislead your viewers and AKC's real position regarding e-collars.

Respectfully,
Don Smith
Meglyn Retrievers [.com]


----------



## hotel4dogs

awesome Don.


----------



## Alain

Very nicely said Don!


----------



## Russ

Here is an interesting article giving a historical perspective on scientific research and the ecollar http://www.truthaboutshockcollars.com/85/remote-collar-training-what-does-science-have-to-say/


----------



## huntinman

Evan said:


> I know exactly how you feel! The guy tried, but *he allowed the discussion to be conducted on her terms. He never really got his case started.*
> 
> Evan


I disagree with that wholeheartedly. The man had no chance. He was at a remote location. DiNardo was in the studio with the interviewer... Pretty easy when the two ladies can make eye contact... And DiNardo filibustering the entire time. O'Shea didn't "allow" anything... He got bushwacked. 

The other problem is he was polite... He didn't attempt to speak over the other guest... She was a bulldog... She ran right over him and knew what she was doing.


----------



## M&K's Retrievers

Unfortunately, Fox was not very "fair and balanced" in their reporting this time. This looked more like MSNBC.


----------



## Jim Spagna

I emailed AKC expressing my displeasure with the Dinardo fiasco and asked if it was, in fact, AKC's position. Here was the reply:

"On Saturday, the AKC participated in a very important segment to discuss the use of e-collars in training the pet dog the basic commands. The AKC felt that is was critical that we recommend the use of positive reinforcement techniques and training programs such as CGC as the best method to train dogs these commands. We believe that positive reinforcement techniques are the best method for the general public to create well trained pets that thrive in their homes and communities. AKC also recognizes that when used properly and under the guidance of experienced trainers, e-collars are an appropriate tool for training and working with dogs in certain performance sports. AKC is proud to support the dedicated members of our sport who put the well-being and happiness of their dogs first. 

We have to remember how important it is that AKC continues to reach out to the owner of the pet dog and it is important that our constituents understand the difference between the training of our athlete dogs, who compete in high level competition and the everyday family dog." 

I can understand the disappointment that you have, particularly if this segment is taken out of context, but the discussion was around pet dogs and training them. You know of the AKC's continue support and love for field trials and performance events - our support of these sports will never diminish."

This reply caused me to re-view the Dinardo segment to reinforce my position that any similarities between the policy as esposed by Ms. Dinaro and that which I read in the email are purely coincidental. Is it just me?


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

Don Smith said:


> Regarding the controversy about the misrepresentations aired by the AKC representative on Fox and Friends last Saturday, I sent to following to Fox & Friends this morning. Let's see if they say anything on the program.
> 
> Last Saturday on Fox & Friends Weekend, a debate about dog "shock" collars was aired. The fact is that Gina DiNardo, the American Kennel Club's representative, grossly misrepresented the American Kennel Club's position on the use of such collars and, in so doing, mislead all of your viewers who do not already know the truth about such collars. Yesterday, James Crowley, AKC Executive Secretary, sent a letter out, apparently to all those who participate in AKC's performance events, as I do. Mr. Crowley said, "On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.
> 
> The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.
> 
> When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.
> 
> We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment."
> 
> Mr. Crowley's statement of the AKC position is in stark contrast to the statements that Ms. DiNardo made on your program. Among other outrageous, incorrect and comments offensive to thousands of experienced dog trainers who properly use e-collars ("shock" collars as Ms. DiNardo referred to them), she said, "...and there are better training methods than using shock collars. Shock collars can cause stress, distress, sometimes pain. Used inappropriately, they can prevent dogs from even being receptive to other training methods in the future and in a worse case scenario the dog might even become aggressive, so we believe in using positive reinforcement as a training method." At no point did she say anything consistent with AKC's position. No one can dispute that e-collars are not appropriate for use by the inexperienced (or the irresponsible), but Ms. DiNardo didn't say that and, in fact, didn't say anything even remotely close to AKC's "opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field." Instead, the impression left with the uninformed public by Ms. DiNardo is that AKC is totally opposed to the use of e-collars, that they are cruel and that, by extension, anyone who uses one is being inhumane. AKC should PUBLICLY correct the damage to the reputations of thousands of highly competent and experience dog trainers.
> 
> I believe it is also important to Fox News' credibility to address Ms. DiNardo having mislead your viewers and AKC's real position regarding e-collars.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Don Smith
> Meglyn Retrievers [.com]


 Good letter maybe more should contact them or????


----------



## Glenda Brown

Excellent letter from Don. I responded to the form letter from AKC and got back a more personalized response. I responded to that and received a 
definitely personal response. I plan to contact some of the AKC delegates as provided on here. The AKC needs to know that this is not something that will be pushed under the rug. Gina DiNardo is an extremely poor spokesperson for the AKC and appears to be quite inept in her knowledge (or lack thereof) of training dogs.

Don---please let us know what response you get from Fox. Thanks.

Glenda


----------



## FOM

Glenda Brown said:


> Excellent letter from Don. I responded to the form letter from AKC and got back a more personalized response. I responded to that and received a
> definitely personal response. I plan to contact some of the AKC delegates as provided on here. The AKC needs to know that this is not something that will be pushed under the rug. Gina DiNardo is an extremely poor spokesperson for the AKC and appears to be quite inept in her knowledge (or lack thereof) of training dogs.
> 
> Don---please let us know what response you get from Fox. Thanks.
> 
> Glenda


Also, why does AKC only send out a letter to those of us who use an e-collar already and understand they are not the evil tool as portrayed? The AKC needs to send that out to the general public...the uneducated public, sending it to us only smacks of trying to appease "us" vs. addressing the issue.


----------



## Golden Boy

That's ok, people will just go back to the old way and use #8 bird shot to get a dog to sit to the whistle and horse whips for force to pile. That was real humane. These people are jack asses and their own worst enemies.
I just couldn't help myself I had to say it.


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## swliszka

A few of us here have actually trained field trial dogs w/out EE . That is to the All Age level. We did not use shotguns, cattle prods, rat shot , hanging dogs by the neck from dog boxes because we were intense amateur trainers w/hunting/animal experience. It is easier for an intelligent amateur to train individual dogs than a pro who has to assembly line train multiple mixed ability animals to conform to his/her "program." With ATVs and other modern aids it is possible but time consuming and requires animal psychological awareness not necessarily conditioned responses. Most people can not do it. Thus the push to EE. I do own 2 TT 500 XL and use them w/great judicious intent. I was trained by non-collar Hall of Fame members. My faults are mine not theirs.

I am agreement w/the concern about the AKC painting such a broad picture but given the nature of many comments on other RTF threads , not all dog trainers are equal. We do not live in an agrarian society anymore but live w/urban romantics who anthropomophisize their "companion" animals. There are more of them than us.


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## jlupi

Ms. DiNardo basically stated that If it cant be done w clickers and cookies only it shouldent be done. This was sort of a follow up to a segment on CBS. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-surges-over-dog-shock-collar-use/


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## Mary Lynn Metras

Russ said:


> Here is an interesting article giving a historical perspective on scientific research and the ecollar http://www.truthaboutshockcollars.com/85/remote-collar-training-what-does-science-have-to-say/


Russ really good article. Took me a bit to read it but.. Interesting how the Ecollar can assist with this agression. But even more interesting is the Tortora study is never mentioned in other studies or in the news. Nor was it used in the decision of Wales to ban Ecollars. It says that if it was a clicker study it would be front page news. It is too bad. Thanks for posting and sharing. There are other links on the page you can also read.


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## FOM

jlupi said:


> Ms. DiNardo basically stated that If it cant be done w clickers and cookies only it shouldent be done. This was sort of a follow up to a segment on CBS. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-surges-over-dog-shock-collar-use/


This was a little more balanced in the reporting, but Ms. Andrea Arden is really misinformed!


----------



## Jim Spagna

Don Smith said:


> Regarding the controversy about the misrepresentations aired by the AKC representative on Fox and Friends last Saturday, I sent to following to Fox & Friends this morning. Let's see if they say anything on the program.
> 
> Last Saturday on Fox & Friends Weekend, a debate about dog "shock" collars was aired. The fact is that Gina DiNardo, the American Kennel Club's representative, grossly misrepresented the American Kennel Club's position on the use of such collars and, in so doing, mislead all of your viewers who do not already know the truth about such collars. Yesterday, James Crowley, AKC Executive Secretary, sent a letter out, apparently to all those who participate in AKC's performance events, as I do. Mr. Crowley said, "On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.
> 
> The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.
> 
> When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.
> 
> We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment."
> 
> Mr. Crowley's statement of the AKC position is in stark contrast to the statements that Ms. DiNardo made on your program. Among other outrageous, incorrect and comments offensive to thousands of experienced dog trainers who properly use e-collars ("shock" collars as Ms. DiNardo referred to them), she said, "...and there are better training methods than using shock collars. Shock collars can cause stress, distress, sometimes pain. Used inappropriately, they can prevent dogs from even being receptive to other training methods in the future and in a worse case scenario the dog might even become aggressive, so we believe in using positive reinforcement as a training method." At no point did she say anything consistent with AKC's position. No one can dispute that e-collars are not appropriate for use by the inexperienced (or the irresponsible), but Ms. DiNardo didn't say that and, in fact, didn't say anything even remotely close to AKC's "opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field." Instead, the impression left with the uninformed public by Ms. DiNardo is that AKC is totally opposed to the use of e-collars, that they are cruel and that, by extension, anyone who uses one is being inhumane. AKC should PUBLICLY correct the damage to the reputations of thousands of highly competent and experience dog trainers.
> 
> I believe it is also important to Fox News' credibility to address Ms. DiNardo having mislead your viewers and AKC's real position regarding e-collars.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Don Smith
> Meglyn Retrievers [.com]


Very thoughtful email that really focuses on the feeling of most of us! I, too, received an email that very nicely points out AKC position. I also agree that the views of Ms.. Dinardo failed to represent the position of AKC as per your email and mine. It does little good to send emails to members...that's preaching to the choir. AKC needs to address it in a MUCH more public fashion. I suggested use of social media and/or a Utube video which corrects Ms. Dinardo's blunder. This would be immediate, would reach more viewers that Fox News, and would be VERY effective & inexpensive. I guess we'll see how interested AKC is in getting the truth out.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

FOM said:


> This was a little more balanced in the reporting, but Ms. Andrea Arden is really misinformed!


 Ms. Arden is what I call out to lunch-the granola group!


----------



## Julie R.

I got not one, but TWO copies of their smarmy form letter and responded to each with this



> Dear Communications Dept:
> I got not one, but TWO of your worthless form letters; one probably generated from your stats that I own/run many dogs in hunt tests and field trials, and one in response to a letter I wrote to Ms. Dinardo.





> Your form letter is NOT satisfactory either to me, or to a large
> group of other retriever people. While the AKC might not endorse
> banning ecollars, to the general dog owning public Ms. Dinardo sure
> made it seem like AKC will support a ban as she called them cruel and stated that dogs could be trained by clickers and treats; she also referenced a very sketchy study done with pet dogs in the U.K, (where they are banned as is fox hunting and many shooting sports we are still able to enjoy here). NO thanks to the AKC.
> Heck, she might as well have been the poster child for PETA and the
> HSUS. I get your point that she was addressing pet owners, but she could have done a fine job of reaching out to the general pet owning public without trashing use of the
> ecollar and calling them shock collars and displaying such an appalling lack of knowledge of dog training..
> I think she needs to be fired. What she did was provide fodder for
> every animal rights activist to jump on a new bandwagon: Ban the
> ecollar! Stop the cruelty! (eye roll). You guys are very naïve if you
> do not realize that you just did immeasurable damage by providing such ripe fodder for animal rights activists. Not only that, but as I pointed out in my first missive, she was incredibly rude to the one person on that panel who might have mititgated some of the
> damage from her animal rights activist diatribe. She never let him finish
> a sentence!
> FIRE HER




Oh and I did say she needs to be fired for misrepresenting the AKC in the first letter and suggested she'd be a much better fit, and probably had a job already lined up, at PETA and/or H$U$.


----------



## JettaJens

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Ms. Arden is what I call out to lunch-the granola group!


I live about an hour outside of NYC and you have no idea how frustrating it is to deal with people like Ms. Arden (we also call them granolas). She is entitled to her opinion and nobody is forcing her to use an e-collar, but insisting that they should be banned is completely obnoxious. Live and let live! If other people have success with an e-collar, why should they be prohibited from using one?

I've also noticed that a lot of people who own and operate "doggy boutiques" (like Ms. Arden) will sell pet owners a wide variety of "humane products" that they claim will help with obedience and training. I guess you make a lot more $ selling someone treats and toys every week than you would selling an e-collar once.

And I guess she thinks she's a better trainer than Mike Lardy... She probably drives a Subaru Outback too.


----------



## Mary Lynn Metras

JettaJens said:


> I live about an hour outside of NYC and *you have no idea how frustrating it is to deal with people like Ms. Arden* (we also call them granolas). She is entitled to her opinion and nobody is forcing her to use an e-collar, but insisting that they should be banned is completely obnoxious. Live and let live! If other people have success with an e-collar, why should they be prohibited from using one?
> 
> I've also noticed that a lot of people who own and operate "doggy boutiques" (like Ms. Arden) will sell pet owners a wide variety of "humane products" that they claim will help with obedience and training. I guess you make a lot more $ selling someone treats and toys every week than you would selling an e-collar once.
> 
> And I guess she thinks she's a better trainer than Mike Lardy... She probably drives a Subaru Outback too.


Oh yes I do! We are not free of them here.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

Did anybody get the letter that AKC is going on Fox and Friends? 
"On Saturday, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study."


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## Glenda Brown

Reply to Mary Lynn -- yes, I did get that letter from the AKC. It was in response to my response to the form letter!

Glenda


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## Pam Spears

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> Did anybody get the letter that AKC is going on Fox and Friends?
> "On Saturday, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study."


The way I read it, it's talking about last Saturday when they went on Fox and Friends, not a new interview. Too bad, it would be a good way to address the problem.


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## HPL

JettaJens said:


> I live about an hour outside of NYC and you have no idea how frustrating it is to deal with people like Ms. Arden (we also call them granolas). She is entitled to her opinion and nobody is forcing her to use an e-collar, but insisting that they should be banned is completely obnoxious. Live and let live! If other people have success with an e-collar, why should they be prohibited from using one?
> 
> I've also noticed that a lot of people who own and operate "doggy boutiques" (like Ms. Arden) will sell pet owners a wide variety of "humane products" that they claim will help with obedience and training. I guess you make a lot more $ selling someone treats and toys every week than you would selling an e-collar once.
> 
> And I guess she thinks she's a better trainer than Mike Lardy... She probably drives a Subaru Outback too.



Do you differentiate between the Outback and the Forrester? I recently acquired a Forrester and like it pretty well. One reason I bought it was because a CAPT in the navy (P-3 pilot) has had two and he recommended it. He was no lefty, had the Come and Take It bumper sticker and everything. ;-)


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## BJGatley

It’s obvious that the AKC is doing damage control with all of the form letters and they believe that will pacify the ranks. It is also obvious that they will protect the higher echelons for whatever reasons. 
So now comes the question….Is it the family pet audience that pays AKC or is it those who are heavily involved with AKC? 
We have been misrepresented and all of that hard work over the years went to the toilet in a single interview. 
The general audience now has painted a picture of our cruel intentions.
That saddens me and makes me a bad trainer in their view. Now we have to do damage control, not AKC, to the general public as to why we do the things we do. Sad state of affairs for sure.


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## JettaJens

I differentiate... Outback drivers are in a category of their own. I swear, every time there is a long line of slow moving vehicles in the passing lane on I-84 a Subaru Outback is at the front of the line (or an errant Hyundai).


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## JettaJens

According to the AKC 2013 Annual Report, there were 250,000 entries in Performance Events (which covers more than just hunt tests and field trials), but compare that to the mere 37,000 CGC certificates issued... Clearly performance/working owners (regardless of whether they are amateur or professional) are contributing more to the AKC's annual revenue. Pet owners who put a CGC on their dog won't necessarily continue entering AKC events. For a lot of them it's a one time thing. We have club members who run their dogs in AKC Hunt Tests almost every weekend of the season. If you have 2 dogs and enter each dog in 6 Master stakes every year at $70-$90 a stake, you're looking at a minimum of $840.

By the way, anyone can ask for the more detailed financial report.
http://images.akc.org/pdf/2013_annual_report.pdf

I'd like to know exactly how much revenue was realized from Master National Retriever Clubs and events associated with Master Nationals. It seems like Agility is their big money maker, but hunt tests and field trials have to come pretty close.


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## 1tulip

When the day comes that they outlaw e-collars, which police department will haul us in? Every K-9 officer in America has had e-collar reinforcement.

Some sheriff's departments declined to enforce laws passed in the post Sandyhook hysteria. Wonder how many police departments will blow off these anti e-collar regulations.


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## dogluvah

As a Subaru driver that uses my e-collar to train hunting retrievers, I would like to remind everyone who publicly complains about the AKC Fox TV clip to please keep your responses factual. Emotional rants are more likely to be counterproductive and even harmful to our (e-collar users) position. Erroneous prejudicial slamming of other groups of people is a very ignorant approach, that will cause most intelligent people to completely discount your viewpoint.


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## pixiebee

Please take a moment to visit this facebook page. thank you
Francine Maciejewski
vom Darz Bo'r Kennel

https://www.facebook.com/groups/703349983082912/?fref=nf


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## Pete

Having spent years going into houses teaching pet owners how to use an e collar and train their dog,, My observation has been that the incorrect use of" Positive R only" only leads to a stressed out frustrated owner and a stressed out frustrated dog waiting to be sent to a shelter.

It is my opinion only those professionals and experienced amateurs who know how to operated" + only techneques" should do it.
You can create monsters and public safety can be at risk when no corrected measures are implemented unless of coarse you really know what your doing.


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## MikeBoley

JettaJens said:


> I differentiate... Outback drivers are in a category of their own. I swear, every time there is a long line of slow moving vehicles in the passing lane on I-84 a Subaru Outback is at the front of the line (or an errant Hyundai).


You have never tried to follow Michelle Chulupka and her Outback to a trial.


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## badbullgator

JettaJens said:


> I differentiate... Outback drivers are in a category of their own. I swear, every time there is a long line of slow moving vehicles in the passing lane on I-84 a Subaru Outback is at the front of the line (or an errant Hyundai).



Usually have a coexist sticker, and are filled with goldens and women with hairy armpits wearing Birkenstocks. Use to see a bunch in New Hampshire and Vermont


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## Vintageduckchucker

Reading the "off subject"
of these posts proves that the AKC Madison Ave "spin team" wins. By Saturday (one week later) they will be able to sit back, sip their martinis, and pat themselves on the back for a "job well done" in putting out the firestorm and continuing to receive their PAYCHECKS! How quickly we forget!


----------



## Sharon Potter

Another thing AKC needs to look at: 

All of us who breed and compete register our dogs. It's safe to say that a goodly proportion of the pet dog folks who don't breed and don't compete also don't bother to register their dogs. AKC should look at where their bread and butter comes from.

They can do all the form letter pacification attempts they want to, but the only real way to fix this is to get back on TV and make a public statement. At no point did Ms. Dinardo differentiate between house pets and highly trained working dogs. Her statement was a blanket statement covering all dogs, and she was very clear in her statement that e-collars are unacceptable.


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## MooseGooser

MikeBoley said:


> You have never tried to follow Michelle Chulupka and her Outback to a trial.


Or Mr Stoner??? : I'm gonna hear bout this! that guy drives a F250 diesel!! Takes him a week to get across denver! 

Its not the gun, the car, or the collar,,,,,, Its the operator!!

Sorry Art! It was just to easy!!


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## MooseGooser

I have to be fair to Art! he gets to his destination the same time I do.. I get stopped 13 times along the way fer tickets!!
Dont ever pull up behind a stater, and ride his arse flashin yer lights! Not a good day!

Like I said: its the operator!


----------



## Russ

Sharon Potter said:


> Another thing AKC needs to look at:
> 
> 
> They can do all the form letter pacification attempts they want to, but the only real way to fix this is to get back on TV and make a public statement.


At this point I think we are better off if the subject is out of the limelight. Any publicity, even in support, will not help our cause. It will just provoke a reaction from the AR activists which will increase the harm caused. The pressure on AKC is still important in order to get a better response the next time the issue is brought into the national media.


----------



## 2tall

Sharon, I have to agree with Russ on this. I am renting a cabin from a lady who has a good bit of SAR experience but has never been involved in retriever field work. She asked me to tell her a little about it and I did. Her very first question after a brief description of a hunt test was, "Wow, how do you stay out of PETA's sights?". I had to think about that a moment, and then answered that I suppose it is because we always try to stay OUT of the limelight and most of our events are on private property. This deal with national television and trying to "educate" could easily backfire on us.


----------



## DoubleHaul

Vintageduckchucker said:


> Reading the "off subject"
> of these posts proves that the AKC Madison Ave "spin team" wins. By Saturday (one week later) they will be able to sit back, sip their martinis, and pat themselves on the back for a "job well done" in putting out the firestorm and continuing to receive their PAYCHECKS! How quickly we forget!


LOL. This thread has stayed on topic longer than any post ever on RT...Oh, look! a pony!


----------



## Sharon Potter

2tall said:


> Sharon, I have to agree with Russ on this. I am renting a cabin from a lady who has a good bit of SAR experience but has never been involved in retriever field work. She asked me to tell her a little about it and I did. Her very first question after a brief description of a hunt test was, "Wow, how do you stay out of PETA's sights?". I had to think about that a moment, and then answered that I suppose it is because we always try to stay OUT of the limelight and most of our events are on private property. This deal with national television and trying to "educate" could easily backfire on us.


Carol(and Russ), I certainly see your point...but the problem now is that to the public, AKC has declared themselves anti-e-collar. That puts AKC directly in the animal rights/PETA camp, whether they intended to be there or not. A well structured and educational rebuttal would be an opportunity to educate. 

In reality, this will all blow over in a couple of weeks and life will go on as always.


----------



## truthseeker

Sharon Potter said:


> Carol(and Russ), I certainly see your point...but the problem now is that to the public, AKC has declared themselves anti-e-collar. That puts AKC directly in the animal rights/PETA camp, whether they intended to be there or not. A well structured and educational rebuttal would be an opportunity to educate.
> 
> In reality, this will all blow over in a couple of weeks and life will go on as always.


Even though I think that this will be the case and in a few week it will blow over. We should keep up the effort for a public retraction. I don't think we will get it but, It would help us out here in California. 

Keith


----------



## achiro

If anyone actually thinks this will "just blow over" they are fooling themselves. Chip away a little bit at a time and soon we are all in boiling water without even remembering when the pot was placed on the fire.


----------



## Mark Littlejohn

We like to think we're large community, but in the grand scheme we're barely a line on the pie chart, much less a slice. Heck, our % within the Labrador population alone we're nothing. Talk to someone at Purina corporate or any pet products company. 

The less attention our sport receives by the masses, the better. (Holy $hi1, did I just agree with 2tall?)

It will be a fun day on the forum after a public AKC retraction includes: ".._.a sample exception might be the performance retriever trainers, who need e-collars to keep their dogs from returning to a live flyer gun station._" 

Point being, they put a nitwit on national tv once, be careful what you wish for.


----------



## jrrichar

I think it is easy to say it will blow over but chances are it just gave a directive to the ALF, PETA, and Humane Society. All they need is a small window and they take the opportunity to burn the whole house down. 

Where am I coming from? I require the use of animals in 90% of my research. I have gotten threatening letters, phone calls, emails from these organizations. They spend money and advertise to the public. They blast their ideas with a megaphone so that pretty soon that is what the public knows to be true (e.g. when the public thinks animal research they think of the chimps in the small metal boxes circa 1950s that are shown by these organizations). As researchers we have done a poor job at educating the public. NIH's policy as well as academia is simply to ignore them. The problem is that the general public elect the officials that designate the budget and grant authority to the NIH. Public perception matters! The amount of paperwork that we go through for research on a rat has tripled in the last 10 years. It gets to the point that we are not even free to explore research avenues because to get approval just to do a simple pilot project can take months. I had gifted high school students volunteer in my lab and are unable to present their data at the Intel Science Fair (a very big deal and excellent platform to get noticed for scholarships) since animal research is now prohibited. 

Beware of the stick your head in the sand, wait out, and say nothing approach. Invisibility is not a good stance.


----------



## JettaJens

dogluvah said:


> As a Subaru driver that uses my e-collar to train hunting retrievers, I would like to remind everyone who publicly complains about the AKC Fox TV clip to please keep your responses factual. Emotional rants are more likely to be counterproductive and even harmful to our (e-collar users) position. Erroneous prejudicial slamming of other groups of people is a very ignorant approach, that will cause most intelligent people to completely discount your viewpoint.


I genuinely apologize if I offended you. My statement was a joke and not intended as an "emotional rant". I realize that, on an internet forum, some people have difficulty interpreting things like humor and sarcasm from a brief post. Perhaps next time I will use the winking emoji like HPL.

By the way, implying that someone is ignorant because their joke hurt your feelings will also cause people to discount your viewpoint.


----------



## Mark Littlejohn

jrrichar said:


> I think it is easy to say it will blow over but chances are it just gave a directive to the ALF, PETA, and Humane Society. All they need is a small window and they take the opportunity to burn the whole house down.
> 
> Where am I coming from? I require the use of animals in 90% of my research. I have gotten threatening letters, phone calls, emails from these organizations. They spend money and advertise to the public. They blast their ideas with a megaphone so that pretty soon that is what the public knows to be true (e.g. when the public thinks animal research they think of the chimps in the small metal boxes circa 1950s that are shown by these organizations). As researchers we have done a poor job at educating the public. NIH's policy as well as academia is simply to ignore them. The problem is that the general public elect the officials that designate the budget and grant authority to the NIH. Public perception matters! The amount of paperwork that we go through for research on a rat has tripled in the last 10 years. It gets to the point that we are not even free to explore research avenues because to get approval just to do a simple pilot project can take months. I had gifted high school students volunteer in my lab and are unable to present their data at the Intel Science Fair (a very big deal and excellent platform to get noticed for scholarships) since animal research is now prohibited.
> 
> Beware of the stick your head in the sand, wait out, and say nothing approach. Invisibility is not a good stance.


I appreciate your work and perspective, but our community is not working on potential life-saving research here, nor are we much of a population to expect to win any potential battle in the court of public opinion. Using your example, if the NIH can't win its argument, what makes you think a doggie game organization would?

Has anyone heard post-interview mention of this interview from the macro environment?


----------



## KwickLabs

So let's just say that if the OP's choice of topic wording had been more accurate than _"AKC push to ban e-collars"_ this thread might have been entirely different.

I watched the tape. It was smug, manipulative, "foot in mouth", unbalanced reporting which is fairly normal "stuff" on FOX. Maybe in my old age, I've lost the edge to vent and express righteous indignation every time a political media attempts to create controversy. I still remain amazed a how easy it is for people to get "sucked" into this kind of nonsense. The sky is not falling. 

I'd say the AKC flunked their analysis of what would happen. In addition, there was a huge amount of inaccurate, mental extrapolation due solely to the topic title of this thread.


----------



## jlupi

Sean should have just played to the fox audience by stating the AKC was backing "politically correct" dog training as opposed to real world. that would have shifted the cameras to him.


----------



## Robert

Just ban them. That will reduce pro MH entries


----------



## dorkweed

KwickLabs said:


> So let's just say that if the OP's choice of topic wording had been more accurate than _"AKC push to ban e-collars"_ this thread might have been entirely different.
> 
> I watched the tape. It was smug, manipulative, "foot in mouth", unbalanced reporting which is fairly normal "stuff" on FOX. Maybe in my old age, I've lost the edge to vent and express righteous indignation every time a political media attempts to create controversy. I still remain amazed a how easy it is for people to get "sucked" into this kind of nonsense. The sky is not falling.
> 
> I'd say the AKC flunked their analysis of what would happen. In addition, there was a huge amount of inaccurate, mental extrapolation due solely to the topic title of this thread.


40-50 years ago Kwick, no one would've said anything about Adrian Peterson either!!!

This gets the the "toe/foot in the door" for the liberals to start banning most everything regarding conditioning type "dog training"!!!!

Fear and pain are great motivators...........................................a great military mind.

But used "judiciously" and with "proper teaching upon the subject", there is no other method that can get the results as fast or as "humane" as the "e-collar"!!

The last sentence is my own personal opinion.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes

I didn't read this thread. Has there been discussion about the email sent out by The AKC about this????


----------



## BJGatley

KwickLabs said:


> So let's just say that if the OP's choice of topic wording had been more accurate than _"AKC push to ban e-collars"_ this thread might have been entirely different.
> 
> I watched the tape. It was smug, manipulative, "foot in mouth", unbalanced reporting which is fairly normal "stuff" on FOX. Maybe in my old age, I've lost the edge to vent and express righteous indignation every time a political media attempts to create controversy. *I still remain amazed a how easy it is for people to get "sucked" into this kind of nonsense. The sky is not falling. *
> 
> I'd say the AKC flunked their analysis of what would happen. In addition, there was a huge amount of inaccurate, mental extrapolation due solely to the topic title of this thread.



I am getting up there in age as well, but when I believe in something, I am passion about it.
I also belong to an organization who fights for our rights. It's called the "Second Amendment" and I am very very passion about that as well. 

Edit to post: I thought about this more and you are a fool to think this. I would have some choice words to you, but I will bite my tongue not to show anger...Obvious you don't understand the consequences involved.


----------



## Rose's Mom

BJGatley said:


> I am getting up there in age as well, but when I believe in something, I am passion about it.
> I also belong to an organization who fights for our rights. It's called the "Second Amendment" and I am very very passion about that as well.
> 
> Edit to post: I thought about this more and you are a fool to think this. I would have some choice words to you, but I will bite my tongue not to show anger...Obvious you don't understand the consequences involved.



I wish there was a like button or high five button for this. Ignoring a problem does not solve the problem. Little by little things are chipped away and by the time you realize what is going on it is too late. 

I personally am new to the e-collar and while I have never been against them have not gotten one until my golden had me chase her up and down a field while she was chasing a deer, jumped on the side of the deer and was lucky she did not get hit with hoofs in the chest/stomach/or whatever other body part. Before that I was so proud of her obedience and how she would distance down from a full run,,,bla bla bla; until her prey drive kicked in and I looked like a complete fool. To this day my husband is still amazed at how fast his wife can run while screaming every possible command I was "convinced" the dog would listen to. 

I also have a flat coat adopted at the age of 4 who was crated 12+ hours a day with a bark collar on her. Yes, she had severe separation anxiety, emotional problems created by the previous owner. In one year of love, proper nutrition, attention, exercise and training she is now wearing an e-collar and she does not hate it, does not cower, is confident and has gotten her first two legs towards her JH in one year with us.


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## Gun_Dog2002

Same people against ecollars, are also against purebred dogs. Hard to make money registering rescue mutts. AKC stepped on its junk with this one

/Paul


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## BAYDOG

Here is a response from the AKC I was told to post to our AWS site, but it works here also



American Kennel Club | Please click here to view in a browser.
American Kennel Club




On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.

The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.

When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.

We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.

Sincerely,
James Crowley, Executive Secretary
American Kennel Club


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## Jacob Hawkes

That's the same email I received Monday. I'm sure I'm not the only one.


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## Bridget Bodine

I received it on Monday also ... and responded that it was not enough. They need to appear to the same audience they originally spoke to...


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## Alain

I remember hearing the Fox commentator saying that E. collar is ban in some part of Canada.....WRONG!
Not any more, it was for a short period here in Québec, but we regroup, hunting dogs trainers federation, hunting and fishing federation, hire a lawyer, tritronic and put in place a strategy that work out, we got the law amended.
One thing we know now, we have to be on top of those government meeting about animal health because the + trainers people here are part of those meeting and this is how they got the E. Collar, and pinch collar being illegal in the law.

That being said, this should be mention @ Fox that E. Collar is permitted in ALL Canada if there are retraction.


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## KwickLabs

I received the same form letter in response to my criticism of a poorly thought out AKC "event". What were they thinking would happen? Wait....they weren't thinking. There seems to be a lot of that going around. 

As for your retort. Actually, it is more of a rant.....but that's just my opinion. 



> Originally Posted by BJGatley





> I am getting up there in age as well, but when I believe in something, I am passion about it. I also belong to an organization who fights for our rights. It's called the "Second Amendment" and I am very very passion about that as well.
> 
> Edit to post: I thought about this more and you are a fool to think this. I would have some choice words to you, but I will bite my tongue not to show anger...Obvious you don't understand the consequences involved.


Do you not think that I bothered to thoroughly reflect upon the ramifications of what I posted? Well, I was certain of the probability of responses similar to yours. And I would have been shocked if others would not have "cheered you on". The trait of lemmings comes to mind. 

The fact that you mentioned "I thought about this more" demonstrated (at least for me) a rather weak set of critical thinking skills. 

A high school debate team would have a great deal of difficulty generating "points" if their retorts were based on calling a response "foolish". To continue, there is little reason for me to mention that your grammar "sucks"...except that it does. In addition, thank you for pointing out that you belong to an organization called "The "Second Amendment". 

And lastly, I really do hope your tongue is not too badly damaged.

This was not in any way meant as a personal attack. You may consider it as just another foolish opinion, regards Jim 

p.s. I really have developed a great appreciation for the following.


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## BJGatley

KwickLabs said:


> I received the same form letter in response to my criticism of a poorly thought out AKC "event". What were they thinking would happen? Wait....they weren't thinking. There seems to be a lot of that going around.
> 
> As for your retort. Actually, it is more of a rant.....but that's just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you not think that I bothered to thoroughly reflect upon the ramifications of what I posted? Well, I was certain of the probability of responses similar to yours. And I would have been shocked if others would not have "cheered you on". The trait of lemmings comes to mind.
> 
> The fact that you mentioned "I thought about this more" demonstrated (at least for me) a rather weak set of critical thinking skills.
> 
> A high school debate team would have a great deal of difficulty generating "points" if their retorts were based on calling a response "foolish". To continue, there is little reason for me to mention that your grammar "sucks"...except that it does. In addition, thank you for pointing out that you belong to an organization called "The "Second Amendment".
> 
> And lastly, I really do hope your tongue is not too badly damaged.
> 
> This was not in any way meant as a personal attack. You may consider it as just another foolish opinion, regards Jim
> 
> p.s. I really have developed a great appreciation for the following.


BS and I mean that. I call a spade a spade. 
Now you can continue with your rant.


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## Buzz

BAYDOG said:


> Here is a response from the AKC I was told to post to our AWS site, but it works here also
> 
> 
> 
> American Kennel Club | Please click here to view in a browser.
> American Kennel Club
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training, a buzzed about subject triggered from the release of a recent study.
> 
> The AKC has never called for a ban on e-collars. The AKC supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. Our thousands of field trial, performance and companion participants are the experts, those with the training experience and knowledge to obtain AKC titles on their dogs. It is our opinion that when placed in the informed hands of professionals, e-collars are an appropriate and effective tool for training dogs that are not only well behaved in the home but also competitive in the field. In fact, listed under the heading “Training Collars,” our position in support of e-collars as it pertains to AKC events, dog clubs and professional trainers has not wavered since it was adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.
> 
> When we accept national media opportunities, we see them as a chance to talk to the nearly 57 million dog-owning households across the country who may not know about AKC’s resources and offerings. For better or worse, the vast majority of those owners will face struggles at the most basic level of training, not the complexities of handling performance-level dogs in the field or advanced companion work. When we appeared on Fox & Friends, it was our intention to speak to those novice owners who are seeking the best methods to create well-trained pets. Those methods do not include misuse or overuse of e-collars at the hands of amateur owners, an opinion with which I’m sure any dog expert can agree. AKC maintains its encouragement of positive reinforcement techniques for those beginner owners.
> 
> We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment.
> 
> Sincerely,
> James Crowley, Executive Secretary
> American Kennel Club


Reading everything in red really has me scratching my head.

AKC would better serve the dog owning public if they stressed that improper use of the electric collar can result in unintended negative consequences. They could warn that modern training techniques consist of a teaching phase using positive reinforcement, an enforcement phase where commands that are well known and understood by the dog are enforced with corrections, and a phase where commands that are well known and understood are enforced while the dog is exposed distractions of increasing intensity over time. They could have mentioned that you cannot teach a dog using an electric collar, that it is only a tool used to administer properly timed corrections for non-compliance of known commands, and that the dog needs to be properly conditioned to the e-collar stimulation before it can be used effectively. Then they could have finished up by suggesting that novice owners reach out to local AKC clubs or well regarded professionals for guidance and help.

Instead they decided to send what appears to be a "novice" in front of the TV screen to telegraph the message that e-collar = bad, training by positive only techniques = good. What a disaster.


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## Julie R.

achiro said:


> If anyone actually thinks this will "just blow over" they are fooling themselves. Chip away a little bit at a time and soon we are all in boiling water without even remembering when the pot was placed on the fire.


^^^ You can bet the AR activists are already running with it. Seems Ms. Victoria Stillwell, her of the tight lips that sink ships in her tight leather britches, has that British "study" (shocking a dozen or so lap dogs that were not collar conditioned) on her website about the cruel ecollars.

But in the main I agree with Russ and even 2tall, the less said in public about this, the better. There's no way any news channel is going to run a feature on why ecollars are good things and no chance the AKC would shell out what it would need to buy time. But they definitely need to fire the twit that spewed her ignorance last week, so that when the AR crazies run with their proof that the AKC is against ecollars by plastering videos of her all over the net, they can at least say after that fiasco she was fired and refer to their original policy they've been so kindly emailing around to everyone they do not need to convince.


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## MSDOGS1976

Bridget Bodine said:


> I received it on Monday also ... and responded that it was not enough. They need to appear to the same audience they originally spoke to...


Correct. At the very minimum, Fox should read this letter on their morning show.


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## steveMO

TTT. Hope everyone contacted the AKC, the Board of Directors or (if they belong to a breed club). the breed club's AKC rep on this.


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## hotel4dogs

Anything further on this, or did it just die out as AKC no doubt hoped it would?


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## RobinZClark

Well it hasn't died out with me. Here is a response from Leerburg which you will find interesting:
http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/1150/

and a second one today on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153154783443465&fref=nf 

In response to his challenge, I strapped on my ecollar. I did not buy the story that it was not painful, because I have nicked my hand and I thought it hurt. Forgive the pun, but I was shocked  It did not really hurt. It felt really weird and it was really got my attention, but the pain was not what I expected. I am not even sure if I would characterize it as pain...more like pressing and a strong muscle contraction. On my hand it felt like static electricity, but on my neck it felt like a very heavy muscle contraction. If you have tried the ecollar on your hand, you MUST try it on your neck. It is a very different sensation. It is not pleasant, but it is completely different from how I thought it would feel.

http://youtu.be/2qXG6PMV24g


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## Mary Lynn Metras

I watched the videos and I have one thing to say. I think the pain sensitivity is different for a dog versus a human. If I was a human I would be very careful applying that collar to your neck where there are mega arteries and veins and especially if you have any medical conditions. Just be careful. IMHO
Also I would think, it varies from dog to dog the level you use depending on the dog's sensitivity. Tar 5yo I use the buzz or pager (Dogtra) or very low mild or usually no collar. Dogtra has two levels regular and mild which is nice! Your dog's level of obedience deteriorates as he hits the field and the gun goes off esp young ones. I doubt the levels they were applying would work on some of our field dogs.

Oh and thanks Robin!


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## Good Dogs

According to the latest communication I had with AKC they are working on a position communique that will include a joint statement with the collar manufactures. Doubtful that the collar manufacturers would "push to ban e-collars." If you have not contacted any of the several AKC links that have been posted in this thread, you should do so. If you have not contacted them in the past 2 weeks, do so again. AKC is nothing if not a large bureaucracy and things move slowly in such organizations. Squeaky wheel gets the grease in other words. 

Or, you could just keeping ranting here.


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## Mary Lynn Metras

Good Dogs said:


> According to the latest communication I had with AKC they are working on a position communique that will include a joint statement with the collar manufactures. *Doubtful that the collar manufacturers would "push to ban e-collars.*" If you have not contacted any of the several AKC links that have been posted in this thread, you should do so. If you have not contacted them in the past 2 weeks, do so again. AKC is nothing if not a large bureaucracy and things move slowly in such organizations. Squeaky wheel gets the grease in other words.
> 
> Or, you could just keeping ranting here.


 What are you meaning by this statement in bold?. I thought in one letter AKC has said it is not their intention to ban collars. Maybe AKC would be better to work together with collar manufacturers and get a statement out sooner than later. I can guarantee the statement won't be to ban the collar.IMO


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## Good Dogs

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> What are you meaning by this statement in bold?. I thought in one letter AKC has said it is not their intention to ban collars. Maybe AKC would be better to work together with collar manufacturers and get a statement out sooner than later. I can guarantee the statement won't be to ban the collar.IMO


Irony and sarcasm do not seem to work well on the internet. The phrase in quotes is from the title of this thread. 
Let me try again. AKC is reportedly working on a joint statement regarding the use of electronic training devices with PETT the association of "collar makers." Since AKC is cooperating with the collar makers it should be obvious that the statement will not be detrimental to their interests. AKC has stated, repeatedly, that they have no agenda to ban the collars despite the musings of Ms Dinardo.


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## Irishwhistler

HAS VP Di Nardo been given the boot by AKC yet??? If not, why not. SHE NEEDS TO GO! Until AKC offloads that incompetent idiot, they are failing to represent the concerns of a very active segment of their own membership. Pathetic from the initial interview and statements by Di Nardo, to the very lame attempt at damage control.

Irishwhistler


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## Dustin D

Bill Hillmann's Thoughts ....


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## .44 magnum

Hillmann is a good spokesperson on the E-collar issue.


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## Dustin D

.44 magnum said:


> Hillmann is a good spokesperson on the E-collar issue.


I'd have to agree. Hillmann is of the whisperer type trainers I follow. 
Very soft and progressively flowing type of trainer. Never rough or loud and physical etc.

His philosophy and techniques once tried, will make a believer out of you.


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## oneshotlu

Not sure if this has been posted yet... Here is a link to the video:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/37829135...ining/?playlist_id=930909787001#sp=show-clips


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## Mary Lynn Metras

oneshotlu said:


> Not sure if this has been posted yet... Here is a link to the video:
> 
> http://video.foxnews.com/v/37829135...ining/?playlist_id=930909787001#sp=show-clips


You need to reread this thread!


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## oneshotlu

Mary Lynn Metras said:


> You need to reread this thread!


Don't really feel like reading all 28 pages, I was just responding to someone who asked to see the Fox and Friends video.


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## Fall Flight

badbullgator said:


> I think this lady should be sent a one year old untrained Chessy. Give her three months and see if she still wants to ban collars and 2x4's.



 Priceless ....lol...they would have to ban 2x4 for sure


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