# RTF Community Apology



## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

I would like to publicly apologize for any of those who i may have offended on my other post as it was not my intent! I take a lot of pride in my character and the people that truly know me, know the remarks that I made are not normal of myself. I have thought a lot about this over the last couple of days, and it was I who was 100 percent in the wrong!

Mr. Ed, you have my apologies! My response to you should have been that I was sorry that you had some bad experiences with inexperienced judges and that I would look forward to be lucky enough to someday judge with you. Just to be afforded the opportunity to spend time with someone with the vast knowledge that you have, would be an experience all within itself.

Again, I apologize and hope that I have not alienated myself from an already dying community!


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

jforqueran said:


> I would like to publicly apologize for any of those who i may have offended on my other post as it was not my intent! I take a lot of pride in my character and the people that truly know me, know the remarks that I made are not normal of myself. I have thought a lot about this over the last couple of days, and it was I who was 100 percent in the wrong!
> 
> Mr. Ed, you have my apologies! My response to you should have been that I was sorry that you had some bad experiences with inexperienced judges and that I would look forward to be lucky enough to someday judge with you. Just to be afforded the opportunity to spend time with someone with the vast knowledge that you have, would be an experience all within itself.
> 
> Again, I apologize and hope that I have not alienated myself from an already dying community!


Dying Community ????


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

A team said:


> Dying Community ????


When I first came here there were a lot of knowledgeable people that contributed on a daily basis. Who knows, maybe some have passed on but i hope that this is not the case. All i know is that there are not as many participants as there once was.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

jforqueran said:


> When I first came here there were a lot of knowledgeable people that contributed on a daily basis. Who knows, maybe some have passed on but i hope that this is not the case. All i know is that there are not as many participants as there once was.


The knowledgeable in the community read your post, read the advice that was passed on by those considered knowledgeable in that community by deed, 
& chose to ignore by lack of response your self serving replies to that knowledgeable advice. Statistically, your dying community comment has no credibility.


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

Marvin S said:


> The knowledgeable in the community read your post, read the advice that was passed on by those considered knowledgeable in that community by deed,
> & chose to ignore by lack of response your self serving replies to that knowledgeable advice. Statistically, your dying community comment has no credibility.


You win Mravin! I'm out!!


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## David Maddox (Jan 12, 2004)

I don’t really know the cause of the apology, but do understand the op’s comment about a “dying community” and his justification for such explanation. I’m not nearly as active as I once was, but I lurk every day. Not nearly as many of the very active, and quite often very informative, RTFers onboard lately.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Actually, I found the verbal exchange kind of amusing.









Tired dogs sleeping in the living room regards, Jim

p.s. I have no idea why this search sprung to mind. 

_*https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=1tTnHtYLV8E*_


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

David Maddox said:


> I don’t really know the cause of the apology,....


In a thread that had drifted slightly off topic the o p stated he was going to start judging. He was then pounced upon by others letting him know he did not know what he should know to judge, you know?
The o p then responded in an attempt to defend himself things went a bit downhill. It really wasn't that bad as none of us could tell a ham sandwich from a hole in the wall the very first time we judged. I have typed way worse in the past and I don't think anyone was really really offended. They were just trying to be helpful, in a Gruff Elder Statesman kind of way.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

jforqueran said:


> [
> You win Mravin! I'm out!!


Gosh, don't back away or show fear.
Or he will eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. 😎


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> Gosh, don't back away or show fear.
> Or he will eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. 😎


 I can assure you Kenneth there is no fear there with the comments that I made to Marvin! He offered nothing of substance in the other thread and he once again offered nothing of substance in this thread! If he truly believes that this is the same place as it was 5 years ago, it's not I who lacks judgement! I just want to talk dog(s) and dog training! If I want to argue, i'll go hang out in the Potus Place


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> In a thread that had drifted slightly off topic the o p stated he was going to start judging.


Pounced? If I had pounced everyone would know it. I merely pointed out the incongruity of a thread requesting help setting up marks that segwayed into I want to start judging. That is a terrible contradiction and one I felt should be recognized. I certainly did not expect or want an apology for the OP taking issue with my statement. And had he been here long he would have understood that I am not easily offended. No harm no foul, I did encourage all participation ongoing with the exception of judging until qualified. I do not do neurosurgery for exactly that reason


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

jforqueran said:


> I can assure you Kenneth there is no fear there with the comments that I made to Marvin! He offered nothing of substance in the other thread and he once again offered nothing of substance in this thread! If he truly believes that this is the same place as it was 5 years ago, it's not I who lacks judgement! I just want to talk dog(s) and dog training! If I want to argue, i'll go hang out in the Potus Place


You made the OP looking for vindication of your views rather than help. 
You wanted to tell everyone about the great prospect you have. You were 
offered sage advice & chose to be offended. You are not the 1st nor will 
you be the last to do that act. We've seen them all, you are not an original.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

I will offer the same advice/opinion as I posted on the first tread.

One of, if not the most important trait needed for learning and succeeding in anything is a thick skin. Dog training, field trials or tests and certainly judging an event, are not exceptions to the rule.


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Iv been dealing with dogs as a pro and as an amateur since the mid 80's. My venue was hunt test, i quit being a trainer years ago and the knowledge I got from that still hasent gotten me to the point of being able to prepare for being a judge. Dr Ed was being realistic about what you face and need to know to be a competent judge. After hundreds of dogs you would think that I would be ready to step right on in but Im not.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> Iv been dealing with dogs as a pro and as an amateur since the mid 80's. My venue was hunt test, i quit being a trainer years ago and the knowledge I got from that still hasent gotten me to the point of being able to prepare for being a judge. Dr Ed was being realistic about what you face and need to know to be a competent judge. After hundreds of dogs you would think that I would be ready to step right on in but Im not.


Someone once said. "if you wait to have children until you think you are ready you will never have them". The same holds true with judging, if you wait until you think you are ready you will never judge. 

Your ready!!!


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## Jesus Ochoa (Apr 10, 2018)

Reginald since I have only run 3 derbies and have yet to run an amateur or open I have alot of learning and experience to pick up, its all new to me .


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

judging or being asked to judge used to be an honor and a way of acknowledgment by your peers that they respected you and your work and accomplishments in the field...fast forward to present time and with most people using a pro and not really training their dogs but being instructed and mentored on how to run those dogs in competition, its much more difficult to know who really knows how to set up a test for a certain stake or is just recreating a training scenario they learned on their last training day...so what ends up happening is the powers that be are a little more reluctant to take just anyone and allow them to judge an AA stake with so much on the line or they get an 8 pt judge along with someone to hold the other clipboard and is nothing more than a warm body with very little input to the test or how they should be scored...

There is a very fine line between wanting judges and having good judges that people want to run under and feel they will get fair honest and challenging tests, not some test they saw at another trial and try to fit it on a property that isn't conducive to the test itself

its a tough fraternity/sorority to break in to, and lately the selection committee is a party of one, and they only listen to their inner circle of lobbyists, so you could hand them a competent judge on a silver platter with no baggage and thats no guarantee they will use that judge

And then of course there is that rare exception to the rule like one of my hunting partners in the NW that has NEVER placed a dog in an AA stake and yet has over 30+ judging assignments


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Jesus Ochoa said:


> Iv been dealing with dogs as a pro and as an amateur since the mid 80's.


You'll be fine. Make sure you are paired with someone who has been around a while and DON'T take on an AA stake until after you have done some minors (6-10), again with knowledgeable people.


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## Ktyler2577 (Nov 30, 2018)

Why is it that only Amateurs judge? Why wouldn't you want a pro to be a judge and give back to the sport that provides for them?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

jforqueran said:


> I would like to publicly apologize for any of those who i may have offended on my other post as it was not my intent! I take a lot of pride in my character and the people that truly know me, know the remarks that I made are not normal of myself. I have thought a lot about this over the last couple of days, and it was I who was 100 percent in the wrong!



Frankly, I am not certain who you offended or why an apology was needed.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> .fast forward to present time and with most people using a pro and not really training their dogs but being instructed and mentored on how to run those dogs in competition, its much more difficult to know who really knows how to set up a test for a certain stake or is just recreating a training scenario they learned on their last training day..


True in the HT game also. After you run under a judge a couple of times, you can generally tell if they train (or have ever trained) their own dogs without even asking.
The judges that train their own dogs usually set up tests to the standard that challenge the performance to the standard.
The judges pool continues to shrink so clubs are forced to use whoever they can get that is licensed and available.
JMHO.
MP


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Ktyler2577 said:


> Why is it that only Amateurs judge? Why wouldn't you want a pro to be a judge and give back to the sport that provides for them?


Read the rule book.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Good Dogs said:


> Ktyler2577 said:
> 
> 
> > Why is it that only Amateurs judge? Why wouldn't you want a pro to be a judge and give back to the sport that provides for them?
> ...


It’s a rule that many would like to change.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

drunkenpoacher said:


> It’s a rule that many would like to change.


With the exception of the people who make the rules.


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> In a thread that had drifted slightly off topic the o p stated he was going to start judging. He was then pounced upon by others letting him know he did not know what he should know to judge, you know?
> The o p then responded in an attempt to defend himself things went a bit downhill. It really wasn't that bad as none of us could tell a ham sandwich from a hole in the wall the very first time we judged. I have typed way worse in the past and I don't think anyone was really really offended. They were just trying to be helpful, in a Gruff Elder Statesman kind of way.


I really would't say that Ed pounced on me! After reflecting, he was giving me sound advice based off of past experiences from being in this game for as long as he has, and having the success that he has had too! I felt like I owed him an apology and others here as well for my actions (I am certainly willing to admit when i am wrong!) in such a condescending way. After reading Ed's response in this thread, I certainly can understand how he and others here could have been confused by what I was asking in the other thread! In my defense, I did claim to say that I am not a scholar that has a way with words!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Ktyler2577 said:


> Why is it that only Amateurs judge? Why wouldn't you want a pro to be a judge and give back to the sport that provides for them?


Rather than changing the topic you might want to look at the past threads on this subject.


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

Marvin S said:


> Rather than changing the topic you might want to look at the past threads on this subject.


No offense Marvin, there isn't much topic to this thread.


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

Marvin S said:


> You made the OP looking for vindication of your views rather than help.
> You wanted to tell everyone about the great prospect you have. You were
> offered sage advice & chose to be offended. You are not the 1st nor will
> you be the last to do that act. We've seen them all, you are not an original.


 Marvin, do you dislike me and my dog(s) because i have a dog with Cosmo blood and one with Lean Mac blood?!?

I came here looking to talk about dog training! I'm not some snot nosed fly by night that thinks they have the next greatest dog! I have what i think to be a very nice young dog and am excited about that, that was not my motive for mentioning that! I train all of my own dogs and work very very hard at that! I have access to some great training ground and water. I make over a hundred mile round trip every day after work to take advantage of this opportunity put in front of me!! So, your right in the aspect that I am original because I am far from that and I will be long after your gone!

We were starting to have a very good discussion of training dogs, when all of that came to a halt about when,if, or why i should become a field trial judge. You offered nothing of substance to either one of those conversations! Have a great day!


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

drunkenpoacher said:


> No offense Marvin, there isn't much topic to this thread.


You just can't bring yourself to leave though huh?


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

drunkenpoacher said:


> No offense Marvin, there isn't much topic to this thread.


The entertainment potential of this thread is infinite. All it was missing was the post where some other wannabe
asks who his dog is out of & when finding it is out of Old Bozo states they have this wonderful dog from that they 
are sure had potential to do great things. But now we find, without inquiring, that it is out of popular studs of the 
month, somewhere in it's lineage. You got to appreciate the fact that we are getting questions answered that were 
never asked. He also tries a little mind reading to show his powers of reading thoughts of others who he does not 
know nor have an understanding of the knowledge those posters have of the subjects he has raised 

It is nice to know that the young man is going through the steps we went through to attain a couple of moments of 
fame. It's not like others on this forum have not done likewise but do not feel a need to advertise their commitment. 

& they have pelts to show for their efforts .


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

What are pelts?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Reginald said:


> What are pelts?


Depends Reggie, unless you are a Cray.
https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/pelt_v1_n1_adv


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

polmaise said:


> Depends Reggie, unless you are a Cray.
> https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/pelt_v1_n1_adv



Not so sure that I want to be pelted now or not? ;-)


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Reginald said:


> What are pelts?


Quoting Guy Burnett: Pelts are what successful trappers have hanging on the walls of their cabin. 
So if you are to be a trapper you might want to listen to them If they will talk. Same thing applies 
in the world of dogs.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> Depends Reggie, unless you are a Kray.
> https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/pelt_v1_n1_adv


Vi Kray might pelthit Reggie for his porky pie peltin' thinking Our Rose had gone the Full Enoch Rivers of Blood on SEC football mores!

MG


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Vi Kray might pelthit Reggie for his porky pie peltin' thinking Our Rose had gone the Full Enoch Rivers of Blood on SEC football mores!
> 
> MG


Most wouldn't know Vi, never mind the K or C in the text , unless ? it had F in the middle (MG) . 
Just fooling around with dialect and dawg folk ...apologies .Give a guy a break 'Once'. ...Or you will have the wrath of them from WI.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Pelts differ in value.. The most prized is the Blue Ox Beaver.. The ultimate accomplishment. The Prize of the open deemed professional…

There are other pretty pelts too, that have value, and still take some sort of trained talent to accumulate… Muskrat, Skunk, Possum, ****… The hierarchy looks down their nose at them however,, even though, when those experts started, their cuffs and collars were lined with them. Kept them warm.. When they collected a bunch.. it made them proud, and bought them some dittys and grub…

A man has to know his limitations.. He must be a realist…. Or,, his trap- sets, remain empty, even though he works hard… Some Nimrods Beavers are other Nimrods Skunks…. Its all relative.. Smelly Den regards..

Don’t be a dog faced pony soldier over such things.. Be proud.for what you have accomplished….

Gooser


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## Missouricootkillr (Jan 4, 2020)

Where does a guy get a decoder ring for these conversations?


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Missouricootkillr said:


> Where does a guy get a decoder ring for these conversations?


Your local Ozark Folkways mercantile can kit you out with a universal retriever translator and retriever ethnography roadmap to further steep you in the lingua Franca of force fetch (or not) and its adjuncts, and Gooser’s wife, for a nominal fee and great glee, offers audio of select rtf positing in the voice of Elmer Fudd (but not Ned Beatty in one of his singular “vocalizations” - unless the Kray Firm asks him real nice now...)


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

crackerd said:


> Vi Kray might pelthit Reggie for his porky pie peltin' thinking Our Rose had gone the Full Enoch Rivers of Blood on SEC football mores!
> 
> MG


MG,
Those whom the gods wish to destroy they must first make mad. We must now be mad, participating in a thread with the subjects of apology, analysis of whether the apology was necessary or not, judging professionals, pelts and the "rule book" and others.

I am filled with foreboding.........

From an earlier era, if the mood strikes me, I also keep a pretty fair Gene Debs impersonation in my repertoire, believe it or not.


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## Bruce MacPherson (Mar 7, 2005)

Kenneth Niles Bora said:


> In a thread that had drifted slightly off topic the o p stated he was going to start judging. He was then pounced upon by others letting him know he did not know what he should know to judge, you know?
> The o p then responded in an attempt to defend himself things went a bit downhill. It really wasn't that bad as none of us could tell a ham sandwich from a hole in the wall the very first time we judged. I have typed way worse in the past and I don't think anyone was really really offended. They were just trying to be helpful, in a Gruff Elder Statesman kind of way.


 He should have been here in the old days huh Ken? LOL


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

roseberry said:


> MG,
> Those whom the gods wish to destroy they must first make mad. We must now be mad, participating in a thread with the subjects of apology, analysis of whether the apology was necessary or not, judging professionals, pelts and the "rule book" and others.
> 
> I am filled with foreboding.........
> ...


rose, I'm wont to associate Mr. Debs with the Wobblies, though I'm afraid that might invite our resident trade unionist (gundog training trade unionist) Polmaise into the fray quoting Maggie the Iron Lady telling HW (41) that it was "no time to go all wobbly" re Operation Desert Storm. Which puts me in (mined) of pyrite and depicting (or "pick-ting & shoveling" by) Marv, and his near Biblical Book of Judges. From there, as with you and Eugene Debs, it's but a hop, skip and a harrumph to John L. Lewis, the patron saint of my Alabama household before the Bear much less St. Nick Saban came along. And I now offer an apology to the plurality of rtf for our 'Bama and socialistic jargon decoder ring being made from pig iron with impurities plenty intact, instead of 24K gospel preaching to tin ear trumpets that hear only what they want to rejoinder "Here! Here!" to...

MG


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Marvin S said:


> Quoting Guy Burnett: Pelts are what successful trappers have hanging on the walls of their cabin.
> So if you are to be a trapper you might want to listen to them If they will talk. Same thing applies
> in the world of dogs.


Welp unless the reason a Superior Trapper talks is to pass along B.S. to ensure that people hunt in bad places and with wrong techniques . There are only so many pelts after all, and trapping is a competition, which gets tougher and tougher each year (anti-trapping laws etc ). Still I believe most of the superior trappers tend to not talk at all, and keep the secret of their success close to the chest. Is such the same in the world of Retriever as it is in the world of hunting and trapping? A question to ponder


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

crackerd said:


> Polmaise into the fray
> 
> MG


Please...No more invites, I respond often out of courtesy and Northern charm. It wears thin after a while.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Hahaha! More things change, the more they remain the same😊


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

BonMallari said:


> so what ends up happening is the powers that be are a little more reluctant to take just anyone and allow them to judge an AA stake with so much on the line or they get an 8 pt judge along with someone to hold the other clipboard and is nothing more than a warm body with very little input to the test or how they should be scored...


Bon, funny that you should say that. Two of the single most educational dog training experiences for me so far have been (i) two days spent with your friend Lanse (RIP) at his place down in Banks, Alabama and (ii) three days spent setting up and then judging a Qualifying stake with him. I don't have to tell you I was the warm body holding a clipboard in that pairing. But over three days I learned so much from him - including what to do when all the dogs absolutely kill what you thought was your very meaty land blind. Our (his) water blind was something else for sure, and it got the necessary separation. I'm certain Lanse had forgotten more about dog training at that point than I will ever know in my lifetime.

I was sweating when we went and sat in my truck to compare notes, which we had only done for a very few dogs on a "should we carry that dog" basis. Luckily we had the same first 4 dogs (we had 2 and 3 reversed and he let me convince him to go with mine). Good (and very educational) times.


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Not even going to read through all of this before I say...We are all under unusual stressors in this environment we did not deserve and that is not of our making. Could we all take a deep breath and just let go of things beyond our control and just play dogs and forgive and forget all the little stuff that doesn't make any difference in how well our dog retrieves.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

jacduck said:


> Not even going to read through all of this before I say...We are all under unusual stressors in this environment we did not deserve and that is not of our making. Could we all take a deep breath and just let go of things beyond our control and just play dogs and forgive and forget all the little stuff that doesn't make any difference in how well our dog retrieves.


When your dog has proven themselves in the field they deserve to receive the the award they earned. 
It is quite common when the person holding the book is unknowledgeable that does not happen.


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## [email protected] (Jul 16, 2018)

On average how much crystal meth would u guys say u do on a daily basis😂😂😂. You guys crack me up. Everybody is a bad ass on the internet. Truth is we’re all here for the same reason to make the dogs we’re running better. Everyone is passionate about it and I think we all just need to relax and try to enjoy everyone’s opinions. I will admit the attitudes get old especially when there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. That in itself has caused me to lose interest within the RTF community. It is good for a laugh every now and then though. 

Keep swinging boys trust me you’ll never get hit over messages. Lol


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

Marvin S said:


> When your dog has proven themselves in the field they deserve to receive the the award they earned.
> It is quite common when the person holding the book is unknowledgeable that does not happen.


Marvin, when was the last time you tried to find judges for your club? You preach about all these bad judges, and trust me no club wants bad judges it only makes a long weekend longer! Just because that one person doesn't have the experience doesn't mean he is responsible for a bad test. There are two judges setting up and judging. I have been very involved in my club and FTS for more years than I care to count and it is getting harder and harder to find judges much less highly experienced judges. We welcome new judges and try our hardest to pair them with someone with experience. 

How about come down and judge for us in the spring? Reading your post you must be a really good judge. 

And Bon, where are these clubs with the secret handshake to judge an all age stake? LOL Open and Am judges are much easier to find than minor stake judges.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

rboudet said:


> Marvin, when was the last time you tried to find judges for your club? You preach about all these bad judges, and trust me no club wants bad judges it only makes a long weekend longer! Just because that one person doesn't have the experience doesn't mean he is responsible for a bad test. There are two judges setting up and judging. I have been very involved in my club and FTS for more years than I care to count and it is getting harder and harder to find judges much less highly experienced judges. We welcome new judges and try our hardest to pair them with someone with experience.
> 
> How about come down and judge for us in the spring?


When entrusted with that job I asked the clubs directors to give me a list of judges they liked & why. 
I then checked through their history to see what kind of judge they were. I do believe that a judge 
should be able to read his field & ensure that no points are left on the table. We managed to bring in 
some folks named John Parrott, George Wilson & Dr. Ed & would have gotten Bob Kennon but he was 
all booked for the two years I was responsible for. They were paired with a local who had placed dogs 
in that stake so things went well. I also dug a couple of outsiders from among the less notorious who 
managed to put on a good stake. The contestants got to see just about every type of test imaginable 
during that time. I am also of the opinion that those who whine most are probably not very well 
organized nor observant. 

I was active for 45 years. Of the dogs I trained 3 got AA points, 7 derby dogs got points & a few got 
re-homed, 1 dog @ a time. I am one of the few whose record shows their placings in the Open, 
Amateur + Derby to be an = number. I have also worked a few Nationals, all the club trials along 
with our sons. Not bad for a guy who helped raise a family of 4 successful young men, worked full 
time, did most of the training & am still married to the woman I started in the sport with. 

The AKC removed me from their list. That does not bother me as judging is something I take seriously
& in doing so it is tiring. I live near a guy who owned a dog that got a triple header in Nationals, he is 
of that same opinion. 

Have a nice day!


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

Marvin S said:


> When entrusted with that job I asked the clubs directors to give me a list of judges they liked & why.
> I then checked through their history to see what kind of judge they were. I do believe that a judge
> should be able to read his field & ensure that no points are left on the table. We managed to bring in
> some folks named John Parrott, George Wilson & Dr. Ed & would have gotten Bob Kennon but he was
> ...


Let's put this thing to rest today! It is very apparent that no one yesterday, today , or tomorrow will convince you in changing your stance on this subject matter and that't fine! That's what makes us the greatest country in the world;-)

Let me end this discussion with this! None of us started out knowing everything there was to know when we started our careers as adults. there were people along the way that seen something in us that made them believe there was a reason to take a chance on us, whether that was a college entrance exam, our work ethic, or our mechanical ingenuity, they saw enough to risk that they just may get something very valuable out of that!

I decided that I wanted to become an electrician and knew absolutely nothing about that! Fast forward almost 20 years and I have learned enough along the way to consider myself a damn fine one at that although I still find myself learning every day. I learned from some knowledgeable, and some not so knowledgeable. I learned a lot of what and how to do things, and I learned a lot of what not to do from the not so knowledgeable. 

I imagine this plays a big part in someone becoming a judge as well! Heck, even Dr. Ed said that he new **** from shinola on his first judging assignment in the minor stakes! It's app arrant from his great accomplishments in this sport that he worked hard and achieved a great amount from that hard work and dedication and the chance that someone took on him way back when payed huge dividends to this sport!!

I have have learned a good deal from these discussions. It's up to me to decide how I use that information and decide whether it is valuable or not! We just need to remember that, we all started from the bottom! Thank you Marvin, 

Have a nice day!


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Marvin S said:


> ..... I live near a guy who owned a dog that got a triple header in Nationals!


And I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express..... Shayne 2007 😁


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Originally Posted by *Marvin S* 
_..... I live near a guy who owned a dog that got a triple header in Nationals!

He really did 
Charlie Hill 
75NFC, 76NAFC-CNFC​WANAPUM DART'S DANDY 76-77 CNFC

_


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## jforqueran (Apr 12, 2015)

EdA said:


> Originally Posted by *Marvin S*
> _..... I live near a guy who owned a dog that got a triple header in Nationals!
> 
> He really did
> ...


must have been one special dog!


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

jforqueran said:


> must have been one special dog!


She was! She was the most stable of all the litter. She also had siblings who had varying degrees of success. In most cases with people who 
had not participated in FT's before. Charly wanted me to take a pup out of her but never bred to a stud that I thought worthy. Eddie Bauer had 
a tremendous amount of influence on Charly's choice of studs. As a consequence the line disappeared. After making his fortune in the Medical 
Supply business Charly tried to re enter the sport but could not get a dog that was competitive. 

But even special dogs have their moments. We had a very active Canadian FT scene just out of Vancouver. When Dandy was transitioning to the 
big dog world I watched her stop on an island on the return from lining a water blind & enjoy a meal of duck. It would have been a nice time to 
have the equipment available today to record the reaction of her pro handler.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Marvin S said:


> I watched her stop on an island on the return from lining a water blind & enjoy a meal of duck. It would have been a nice time to
> have the equipment available today to record the reaction of her pro handler.



I guess she thought she earned it! LOL!!! Oh to have video capabilities for such events. Do you know if she ever repeated the offense?


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> She was! She was the most stable of all the litter. She also had siblings who had varying degrees of success. In most cases with people who
> had not participated in FT's before. *Charly wanted me to take a pup out of her but never bred to a stud that I thought worthy*. Eddie Bauer had
> a tremendous amount of influence on Charly's choice of studs. As a consequence the line disappeared. After making his fortune in the Medical
> Supply business Charly tried to re enter the sport but could not get a dog that was competitive.
> ...


so you want me to believe that between 

FC AFC Ebony Argonaut

FC AFC Paha's Pow on Tap

NAFC FC Ray's Rascal

none were WORTHY of your consideration...um okay...SMH


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> so you want me to believe that between
> 
> FC AFC Ebony Argonaut
> 
> ...


One could argue that Marvin was right, she produced not a single titled dog in 4 litters, the most puzzling was to Punt, FC-AFC Trumarc’s Triple Threat (a breeding you omitted) rather than Honcho who he finally bred to when she was 10 and had no puppies.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

EdA said:


> One could argue that Marvin was right, she produced not a single titled dog in 4 litters, the most puzzling was to Punt, FC-AFC Trumarc’s Triple Threat (a breeding you omitted) rather than Honcho who he finally bred to when she was 10 and had no puppies.


the reason I omitted Punt is that I knew absolutely nothing about the dog or what he had produced. I knew about the three that I listed. we had a very fine Ray's Rascal dog that had 11 AA its with two Amateur wins before being retired. I realized Dandy produced nothing, my query was that if Mr Hill offered me a pup Sired by any of the three dogs I listed I would have jumped at that chance because I thought they were more than "worthy" of my consideration


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> so you want me to believe that between
> 
> FC AFC Ebony Argonaut
> 
> ...


In 1974 Gerry Vander Zanden & I judged a Derby for Oregon RC on Sauvie's Island. It was a very large Derby & was still in the days that Derby's consisted of 
2 singles & 2 doubles. We started off the dike by the corral with a pheasant flyer single & the 1st 14 dogs failed the test. Grumbling was coming from the 
spectators but we held our ground. The dogs started doing the test & we continued. I make it a point to look at the ages of initial dogs in Derbies judged 
knowing that you are rarely going to get good work from dogs under 18 months of age. Ebony Argonaut won that trial along with, if my memory serves me, 
the next 2. Nothing I saw in his performance made me feel he was an unusual dog. But in that trial was also Watergator Sam who, @ 10 months of age got 
4th, & McGuffy in 5th. Albert Uhalde, the owner of EA bought my snack at the airport before I boarded to go home. i Had never met him until he came up & 
intro'd himself @ the lunch counter. Val Walker later complimented us on the quality of that particular test. 

Pow on Tap - I don't make it a habit of attempting to exhibit dogs that have any thing to do with people I don't like. 

Rascal - the CA judges were quite adept at exposing Rascal's weaknesses. They were such that I didn't feel qualified to deal with them & that has never changed. 
I saw Rascal do an Open @ Idaho RC that was very impressive. Ray Goodrich should have been in the RHOF early enough that he would have had time to enjoy 
that honor, which in his case was deserved. I judged Rascal once in the Derby & saw him run numerous times. 

Dr Ed mentioned Honcho - I have never seen a bad Honcho offspring as I have from others mentioned frequently on this forum. I have only owned 1 but would have 
owned more had they been available. 



BonMallari said:


> the reason I omitted Punt is that I knew absolutely nothing about the dog or what he had produced. I knew about the three that I listed. we had a very fine Ray's Rascal dog that had 11 AA its with two Amateur wins before being retired. I realized Dandy produced nothing, my query was that if Mr Hill offered me a pup Sired by any of the three dogs I listed I would have jumped at that chance because I thought they were more than "worthy" of my consideration


As you can see from my post above I knew about these dogs you mentioned. Charly & I were competitive friends & knew what the other was capable of with dogs. 
I did 1 dog @ a time as like your brother I do most of my own dog stuff. We did discuss his choice of studs. 

I can remember talking to Bob Beck on the subject of multiple dogs & explaining my feeling that a working stiff with more than 1 dog just has multiple poorly trained 
dogs, not saying my dogs were that finished a product, but they entertained me & were good hunting partners. Bob did fairly well when he acted on that conversation.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I always thought Charlie Bunn owned FC AFC Ebony Argonaut


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> I always thought Charlie Bunn owned FC AFC Ebony Argonaut


Charlie bought him from the original owner.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> I always thought Charlie Bunn owned FC AFC Ebony Argonaut


There is a classification that normally no one mentions in this sport. 
Those made famous by dogs that they purchased somewhere in that 
dog's competitive career. It is a larger classification than one would 
imagine.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Marvin S said:


> There is a classification that normally no one mentions in this sport.
> Those made famous by dogs that they purchased somewhere in that
> dog's competitive career. It is a larger classification than one would
> imagine.


I could name at least a half dozen without research and four that became National Champions


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## Northrup Larson (Oct 20, 2003)

Jamie as u know we train together about every day , & IMHO u were to humble in estimating & Portraying your knowledge to many of of the posters on this site.
Also as U know u do not yet qualify to judge a AA trial, that said IMHO u would add to a good 
Judging team In a derby or Qual witch u have 
Competed many Times before.
When I first got in to this game my first question was I asked how Knowledgeable is that person to be a judge , but not anymore my first question is how honest is he or she .
And u have that Quality in spades


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Northrup Larson said:


> Jamie as u know we train together about every day , & IMHO u were to humble in estimating & Portraying your knowledge to many of of the posters on this site.
> Also as U know u do not yet qualify to judge a AA trial, that said IMHO u would add to a good
> Judging team In a derby or Qual witch u have
> Competed many Times before.
> ...


Nice post Northrop, no one has mentioned how you qualify to judge AA stakes 1) apprenticeship with no experience required 2) qualify by running a certain # of AA stakes (15)? with at least a JAM. #1 seems almost ludicrous #2- seems sensible although judging minor stakes first seems the traditional pathway. Your comment about honesty is unfortunately understandable. We need constant fresh blood in this game and most assuredly in the judging pool. My advice would be to carry on, try to judge with generous experienced judges and work your way up the totem pole, ask around and you’ll find them. There are good judges that exist that are all about the dogs and don’t have personal agendas and bring common sense along with ability to judge the field, the terrain, good bird placement, good time management, and an ability to be flexible and can relate all of this in a non tyrannical manner. This won’t happen overnight, it’s a process that involves years of experience.


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