# Training for qualifying Stakes



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

a new training thread! Lets focus on training for the Qualifying Stakes. What are you guys seeing around the country as far as tests? What should your dog be doing in training before you run a Q? What can you do in training to ready your dog for the Q?

Jon

P.S. If anyone has some pics of a qual you ran or judged or were at please feel free to post those.


----------



## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Triple with 2 retired.
300 yard land & water blinds.
Triple with 2 in line marks, one retired and a go bird 90 degrees off line.
Close honoring.

That should keep you busy!


----------



## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

Please disclose those judges so we eliminate them from the judging pools.


----------



## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

This is what I have seen the last two years. 

 1st series (land)- could be a double or triple, maybe with one retired, marks from 100-275, did see one at 350.

 2nd series- land blind about 200 yd, w/factors harder than MH.

 3rd series- water blind about 200 yd, w/factors harder than MH.

4th series (water)- Triple w/ one retired, 100-275.

No diversion or poison birds. May or may not have an honor.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Don't train specificly for the qualifying. Train for the big game and everything will fall into place.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> 300 yard land and water blinds
> Haven't seen poison birds in a Qualifying, but I think you better be doing them. Triples with two retired in the last trial I ran, but the marks were fairly short. The long retired gun was maybe 180 yards.
> In line set ups, indented triples. In and outs, multiples down the shore.
> I think your training to get ready for all age, not qualifying. So the concepts are all age but more black and white. Like Ted said in those threads. All the things you do to make a test easier you would do to reduce an all age set up to a Qualifying set up. Less of an angle, shorter water entry, less terrain hazard, less wind hazard. The same concepts as all age but easier.
> ...


 
OK Walt lets get some pic's rollin here


----------



## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

greg magee said:


> Don't train specificly for the qualifying. Train for the big game and everything will fall into place.


Ding! Train for the Open. When he's starting to put things together at that level in training, he's getting close to a winning level in the Q.

Evan


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

greg magee said:


> Don't train specificly for the qualifying. Train for the big game and everything will fall into place.


Greg,

I agree whole heartedly!!, but lets discuss what you and others would like to see in training before you would enter your dog in a qual! 

Jon


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Duck Creek said:


> Greg,
> 
> I agree whole heartedly!!, but lets discuss what you and others would like to see in training before you would enter your dog in a qual!
> 
> Jon


Marks retired birds consistently, I do a lot of single retireds and I like to so a 80% success rate. I like to see the dog handling blinds in a very journeymen type manner. Working well with you on blinds in the same field where the marks were. Great waterblind attitude. Should be very bidable in the water and not trying to get out. A good channel blind is a must. Your going to see it in the qualifying. Comfortable swimming for a retired gun while swimming past the short mark. If you can do all this, you can win a qualifying. maybe not first time out because anything can happen on any given day. But you'll be comfortable knowing your dog can do the work.


----------



## GilWlsn (Jan 18, 2008)

Duck Creek said:


> a new training thread! Lets focus on training for the Qualifying Stakes. What are you guys seeing around the country as far as tests? What should your dog be doing in training before you run a Q? What can you do in training to ready your dog for the Q?
> 
> Jon
> 
> P.S. If anyone has some pics of a qual you ran or judged or were at please feel free to post those.


Go brother go!


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Jon, Anybody...Let's dissect this test. Any ideas on how to train on the factors for this test?
> Or somebody post another picture and get us started on those ideas.
> Walt


 
I think the middle mark would be better thrown the opposite direction with a little adjustment.

John Lash


----------



## Final Flight Retrievers (Jan 23, 2010)

Walt what's the yardage...aprox. ????

looks to me like:
1. 175 to 200
2. 250 to 275
F. 150 to 175

am I close??


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Nice start Walt. Triple with NO retireds for the Q. I like that.

Thanks for bringing back the pictures.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Jon, Anybody...Let's dissect this test. Any ideas on how to train on the factors for this test?
> Or somebody post another picture and get us started on those ideas.
> Walt


 
Walt thanks for the pics! I really like the flyer I think you may get a fair amount of dogs to cheat that cover (mowed area is very inviting) I would throw Mark 1 to the left though. The way it's thrown I think the dogs will be helped by the wide open field where the fall area is ( they would most likley cheat the cover and then suck into the open field) I'm glad to see some of the post that were made. There is alot of knowledge within the members of this board and imo it would be a waste not to draw that knowledge out. Thanks all.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Long marks are probably about 180 yards.
> Wanted to keep the AOF as far apart as the field allowed, I thought changing the direction would make it too tight to the flyer station. Wind's at our back, feathers from the flyer may land pretty close to the line to the middle mark if we throw the other way. Plus the drop off towards the flyer to begin with. But it's an idea. I think I'd rather retire one of the long guns.
> Walt
> 
> *Would it help if I posted a blank picture for you guys to put in photobucket?*


 
Hey walt could you post that black pic please
Jon


----------



## Ron in Portland (Apr 1, 2006)

I like this setup. So what's your pickup order? Do you sweep them in order, 3, 2, 1?

I see the issue there being after picking up #3 and #2, it's going to push the dog to run thin on #1 and cheat that little piece of cover. 

Because of that, do you pick up #3, #1, then up the middle for #2?


----------



## JS McKinney (May 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Long marks are probably about 180 yards.
> Wanted to keep the AOF as far apart as the field allowed, I thought changing the direction would make it too tight to the flyer station. Wind's at our back, feathers from the flyer may land pretty close to the line to the middle mark if we throw the other way. Plus the drop off towards the flyer to begin with. But it's an idea. I think I'd rather retire one of the long guns.
> Walt
> 
> *Would it help if I posted a blank picture for you guys to put in photobucket?*


I have heard on another forum that there is a virus that you can pick up by downloading pics off of photobucket. uploading is okay. i don't know if this is true, or has been fixed.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

JS McKinney said:


> I have heard on another forum that there is a virus that you can pick up by downloading pics off of photobucket. uploading is okay. i don't know if this is true, or has been fixed.


 
I don't think there is an issue with the way we do it by saving the pic to your computer uploading it to photobucket and then posting the IMG link in your post so the pic will show up.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Ron in Portland said:


> I like this setup. So what's your pickup order? Do you sweep them in order, 3, 2, 1?
> 
> I see the issue there being after picking up #3 and #2, it's going to push the dog to run thin on #1 and cheat that little piece of cover.
> 
> Because of that, do you pick up #3, #1, then up the middle for #2?


I tend to pick birds up shortest to longest. So go bird, the shortest, and so on. It's hard to tell which one is longer. I do really like this set-up though very black and white and Ted says. I do see a line that I would want to take to bird one where it is in the pic. If I could line the dog up I could get some push to the bird. If I had a pic I would show you (where are you Walt) 

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

I would throw 1 to the left as shown in the pic.

In training depending on the dog lets say a young dog I would throw 1 as a single. If the dog had problems I would have the gun help. throw a bird off line have dog pick up and rethrow 1. repeat untill dog has it. Put dog away and run other dogs. Bring dog back out throw 1 and 2 as double. dog shouldn't have problems with mark 1. If problems arise with mark 2 rerun as a single. put dog up and run other dogs then bring dog back out and run as triple.

You can teach a very young dog to run AA setups using this method.
Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I would want to teach the correct line to #1 as a single. Insist on taking that little piece of cover by handling if necessary, and have the guns help if she gets lost from being handled. If she got the line to that mark I would try it as a delayed triple. One throws, two throws, pick up two, shoot the flyer, pick up one. If all goes well, a week later I'd repeat the test as a triple. I might be able to get more out of this test if the wind is right, another factor. Even build into crosswinds and retired guns. But my main focus first are the lines to those marks. I want her shouldering into that slope, not drifting. I'm not waiting to see if she figures it out, I want the lines.
> 
> Walt


 
To a degree Walt I agree with what you are saying. Personally I don't as a general rule handle on marks. I will however make cheating the cover uncomfortable for the dog (once dog commits to cheating cover low level nicks untill they are past the cover once dog is back throw bird off line and throw mark again if dog cheats this time make it even more uncomfortale. Keep in mind I may handle on the way back to show the dog the right line just not onroute). Also I am more concerned about picking up the bird than the line to the bird. Getting the bird is more important than the line. With that being said I do want the dogs taking cover holding in a crosswind and so on. I was refering to a derby aged dog in the way I am teaching this triple. with all that being said there is more than one way to skin a cat

I hope this makes sense it does in my head anyway 

Jon


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

How's this look? Another look. All out for the Qual, retire the middle for the Am.










John Lash


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

John Lash said:


> How's this look? Another look. All out for the Qual, retire the middle for the Am.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks Nice John! What were you looking at while deciding where to plack gunners and what do you expect to see from the dogs running this setup.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I thought this would work for a Qualifying triple. No retired, order from right to left. Wind at our backs. Not as easy as it looks, dogs fall off that slope very easily.
> Walt


Walt can you tell us why you put the marks where you did and what you would expect the dogs to do and what they will learn.

Jon


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Duck Creek said:


> Looks Nice John! What were you looking at while deciding where to plack gunners and what do you expect to see from the dogs running this setup.
> 
> Jon


As a test set up I think the dogs will take some of the cover on the way to G2, break out of the cover, go uphill and end up behind the gun.

For G1, I think they will bear left away from the flyer and when past it push off the island of cover and be behind G1 also.

John Lash


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Here is another field lets set up some training marks and explain why you set them where you did. What you expect the dogs to do. and what are your factors, hazards, and obstacles in your set up

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

This would be a good training triple.
pick up flyer first and try to get dog through the opening in the cover first obstacle point of cover and the gunner may tend to pull dogs to the left to cheat if dog gets inbetween gunner and aof they will have a hunt.

Mark 2 next wind and visible gunner and memory may pull dog to the right and get the dog inbetween the gunner and haybale dog will have to drive quite deep to wind bird or hook past bale and put on hunt.

Last Mark 1 is retired and cover infront of line and windrowed hay may open a lane for the dog to follow out into no mans land to the right inbetween M1 and M3. Visible gunner from M2 may help to pull dog to left helping him.

Jon

Feel free to critique this setup


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

In Walt's original setup the order is right to left. The send for each of the marks is under the arc, kinda where those green catus looking figures are.
Order is Flyer, Right and Middle. Wind shouldn't be a factor in any mark since it's to our back, eliminating any long hunts..........just sayin'.....;-)


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Duck Creek I disagree. Flyer to remain as is, M1 to be right to left and hay bale short and left of flyer to be a dead pheasant thrown straight back and retired.
Order to be Middle Short Retired Pheasant, Flyer Duck Right and 
Left Go Bird Duck.
Wind is Left to Right!
So what's yer pick up order for this scenario??????


----------



## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

Here is some water for your last series.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Polock said:


> Duck Creek I disagree. Flyer to remain as is, M1 to be right to left and hay bale short and left of flyer to be a dead pheasant thrown straight back and retired.
> Order to be Middle Short Retired Pheasant, Flyer Duck Right and
> Left Go Bird Duck.
> Wind is Left to Right!
> So what's yer pick up order for this scenario??????


 
For yours or mine. Mine I would pick up flyer first M1 second and M2 last. Depending on the dog if I feel the gunner is too much suction then I will pick up M2 before M1 that way if dog is sent for M1 and tries to go to M2 I can correct for returning to an old fall.
Are you disagreeing with the placement of marks or how the terrain will affect the dogs could you please elaborate.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Greg Seddon said:


> Here is some water for your last series.


Now that is one nice piece of water lots of options on this one

Jon


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> For yours or mine. Mine I would pick up flyer first M1 second and M2 last.
> Are you disagreeing with the placement of marks or how the terrain will affect the dogs could you please elaborate.
> 
> Jon


So with the Flyer being M2 of the Series you would pull the dawg off the go bird to pick the flyer.....explain...

I was relating to changing yer setup to the one I proposed that all....


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Remember order was Middle Retired M1, Left Flyer M2 and Right Dead M3...


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Polock said:


> So with the Flyer being M2 of the Series you would pull the dawg off the go bird to pick the flyer.....explain...


I was referring to my setup sorry wasn't sure wich one you were referring to. In training I would pick up go bird, short retired, and then flyer. In a test depending on how much the flyer was pulling the dog I may pick it up first unless otherwise instructed to pick up go bird by judge. You just have to know your dog and what their tendencies are. I as a rule like to pick up birds as go, then short to long.

Jon


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> I was referring to my setup sorry wasn't sure wich one you were referring to. In training I would pick up go bird, short retired, and then flyer. In a test depending on how much the flyer was pulling the dog I may pick it up first unless otherwise instructed to pick up go bird by judge. You just have to know your dog and what their tendencies are. I as a rule like to pick up birds as go, then short to long.
> 
> Jon


I only asked that question because of a recent training seminar that basically showed that we are so ingrained with picking up the short retired second, that we seem to get ourselves in more problems and don't get a callback.........the money in gettin called back is really in the middle bird be picked up last, especially with a R to L wind.......not in our normal ingrained thought process of picking up birds, but usally wins the trial....just sayin'...;-)


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

Here is Steve Blythe running a first/second series qualifying stake at Kansas City. It was posted to youtube by Evan Grahm. It's a double with a retired, then a blind up the middle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYIN-0SZlp8


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Polock said:


> I only asked that question because of a recent training seminar that basically showed that we are so ingrained with picking up the short retired second, that we seem to get ourselves in more problems and don't get a callback.........the money in gettin called back is really in the middle bird be picked up last, especially with a R to L wind.......not in our normal ingrained thought process of picking up birds, but usally wins the trial....just sayin'...;-)


Polock,

What is the thought process behind this and why is it with a R to L wind?
Mind is going crazy trying to figure it out help please 

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Polock said:


> Duck Creek I disagree. Flyer to remain as is, M1 to be right to left and hay bale short and left of flyer to be a dead pheasant thrown straight back and retired.
> Order to be Middle Short Retired Pheasant, Flyer Duck Right and
> Left Go Bird Duck.
> Wind is Left to Right!
> So what's yer pick up order for this scenario??????


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Only trying to show how we get so locked in on training setups and established routines that we never think out of the box (I HATE THAT CORPORATE STATEMENT SO MUCH) and aren't willing to change.
Out of 30 particates in a recent seminar ALL said they would pick up the short retired second...then they were made to pick up the short retired last.....most walked away with some new training thoughts.......and by the way almost all 30 dawgs did what they were asked to do.....just sayin'...;-)


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

That pic is still messed up.

Leave Flyer where it is M2, throw M1 Right to Left as M3, Make M1 the Short Hay Bale left of Flyer as M1 throw straight back. Wind L to R.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Polock said:


> I only asked that question because of a recent training seminar that basically showed that we are so ingrained with picking up the short retired second, that we seem to get ourselves in more problems and don't get a callback.........the money in gettin called back is really in the middle bird be picked up last, especially with a R to L wind.......not in our normal ingrained thought process of picking up birds, but usally wins the trial....just sayin'...;-)


In your set up the wind is blowing L to R I can understand the concept because the wind is not going to blow scent from the short retired.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Polock said:


> That pic is still messed up.
> 
> Leave Flyer where it is M2, throw M1 Right to Left as M3, Make M1 the Short Hay Bale left of Flyer as M1 throw straight back. Wind L to R.


Like This?


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> In your set up the wind is blowing L to R I can understand the concept because the wind is not going to blow scent from the short retired.
> 
> Jon


Excuse me, but a left to right wind does blow scent from the short retired to the flyer.....

And Walt yer right...........


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Duck Creek said:


> Like This?


Now that I can see it You are right I would pick up go bird, flyer, then short retired. Go bird is seperated from the flyer enough that you shouldn't get too much suction from it. Draw from the flyer will pull it past the short retired bird and that leaves it last
Glad you brought this up thanks 

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Polock said:


> Excuse me, but a left to right wind does blow scent from the short retired to the flyer.....
> 
> And Walt yer right...........


Not really worried about scent messing up the flyer that should have enough action to pull dog to it I was referring to the go bird if your dog gets scent on it the dog may flare off to short retired or the flyer.

Jon


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Thank You, all I would do is have the M1 bird further right, more suckin, but pickin' up dat middle bird is most important to get to the next series, you send for the short retired second and he ends up on the flyer or headin' to M3...in no man's land......
It is not our standard in the training process but will keep you in more trials, remember the judges can't didate the order of pickup.......just sayin'....;-)


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Polock said:


> Thank You, all I would do is have the M1 bird further right, more suckin, but pickin' up dat middle bird is most important to get to the next series, you send for the short retired second and he ends up on the flyer or headin' to M3...in no man's land......
> It is not our standard in the training process but will keep you in more trials, remember the judges can't didate the order of pickup.......just sayin'....;-)


I agree and thank you for bringing this up I know my dogs and I can say if I sent them for the short retired they would end up at the flyer and now I burned up my line to the short retired i.e. don't go back to the same bird twice. Line is too tight and will definatley screw up my dogs. Thanks again Polock.

Jon


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Ya want to make it more interesting....move the flyer to the further back hay bale...same throw........everyone will go for the short retired........they're SCAAAAARED.........;-)


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Dan....I'm in the middle of teaching, or trying to teach secondary selection on in-line set ups. My dog can do the test her way, outside - outside - middle, but I want her to get that middle bird out of the way first. I know Dave Rorem will pick up the middle bird last, but I'm definitely not Dave. Are you saying we needn't bother with secondary selection?
> Walt


Walt, it was Dave's Seminar that he taught this concept through Pop-Up marks...and yes he does believe in short retired last. As you know Dave believes in watching the dawgs eyes...and in his training seminar it shows he's right....the only birds you should watch as a handler are the flyer and/or a poison bird.

That getting the middle bird out of the way first is only an ingrained training thought...it showed from every handler at the seminar...Dave offered a different approach...the eyes don't lies...learn it and you'll be amazed.....;-)


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Walt, ya got to be smart enough, that if da dawg is tellin' ya they wanz the middle bird, dats where ya go...never pull desire away....


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Duck Creek said:


> Like This?


Dan I agree with picking up the short retired last in this set up, but what if we threw this switching M2 and M3 making the flyer the go bird and the wind Right to left. I would say you would be better off picking up the short retired second. if you don't you run the chance of your dog winding the bird and picking it up second anyway and now you have a problem because you sent for M2 and got M1 and in your dogs eyes it already picked up M2 cause thats the bird you sent for

Just thinkin out loud

Jon


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

DC, I still believe if the the flyer were the go bird and picked first, moving to the left bird would be normal, the middle retired is still a tough bird, because of the wind, but it being much shorter than the flyer would be easy to gather as long as (1) ya sent under the arc, (2) you believed the EYES....Focus..........Go for it.....;-)


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Ya'll move dat flyer to the further back hay bale and throw the same mark, And ya pick up da short bird last ........ya won da trial......it's dat easy...see ya'll on da circuit....have a great year.........;-)


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Wind at our backs

#1 shot right to left
#2 Flyer shot left to right

Do the double then re-address and run blind.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Wade, if I am reading you correctly, both marks on the double are angled in? Would that be expected at a Q? I ask because in training I am told NEVER EVER throw in towards the line. Maybe its just depth perception, but if not could you explain the idea?

Wait a minute, I just looked again and see that the flyer does angle back, only the #1 mark comes in. Still same question I guess.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Do any of you train on an out of order flyer and/or with the flyer being the long memory bird?


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

We get shot flyers now at least once a week, sometimes a couple. We did the out of order set up first just to check my dog's control on the line. He did pretty well, its still hard when the flyer is in his face. But the "out of order" does keep them on their toes. I would be kind of surprised to find it in a Q. The one you placed in, was that a Q?


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Here is a my qual test for this field. Long flyer out of picture. Middle gun retired. 1st bird down on left shot around the horn. Lots of places for the dog to go when going for middle bird. They have to mark the flyer or else everything is going to push them left. left hand bird just past the cover point. Some will over run this bird.


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

2tall said:


> But the "out of order" does keep them on their toes. I would be kind of surprised to find it in a Q. The one you placed in, was that a Q?


You certainly will find out of order flyers in the Q


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Wind at your back and yes X marks the station, end of the line is the fall. The left bird is throw somewhat in. I don't think the fall of the flyer would have much affect on the blind. The flyer crates would be left in the field anyway as they are 9/10 times. I think you could tweak the distances some what but I believe there is enough room between the crates and the bush.



[email protected] said:


> Wade...Where's the wind? And for the marks, x is the gun station with the bird at the end of the line?
> Seems very tight. I like the idea of a double and a blind but i think I'd want to separate the flyer from the blind a lot more. Who knows where the flyer will land, they need some room. And I might prefer the left mark into the cover.
> I like the line to the blind, you better be quick with a whistle by that clump of trees though.
> Walt
> ...


----------



## MardiGras (Feb 9, 2004)

Duck Creek said:


>


Retire the middle bird behind the hay bale (have seen that quite a bit).


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Carol, I think if you look at the line position in relation to the line of the left hand throw it is more flat or parallel to the line.



2tall said:


> Wade, if I am reading you correctly, both marks on the double are angled in? Would that be expected at a Q? I ask because in training I am told NEVER EVER throw in towards the line. Maybe its just depth perception, but if not could you explain the idea?
> 
> Wait a minute, I just looked again and see that the flyer does angle back, only the #1 mark comes in. Still same question I guess.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Greg.. On the middle mark, are you assuming the dogs can get through the cover if they want to?
> Tough short memory bird too. I'd be proud to win any stake you judged Greg. You know how to test a dog.
> Walt


No Walt, I'm assumming that they'll have to make a choice of right or left. You'll have a few though that will go through it though.


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

greg magee said:


> Here is a my qual test for this field. Long flyer out of picture. Middle gun retired. 1st bird down on left shot around the horn. Lots of places for the dog to go when going for middle bird. They have to mark the flyer or else everything is going to push them left. left hand bird just past the cover point. Some will over run this bird.


I really like this setup.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Wow you guys have been busy I have some reading to do. Did anybody save the water pic from Greg or Greg could you post it again so I could save it.

Jon


----------



## Jacob Hawkes (Jun 24, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Me too... Your dog better know where she's going if she's running one of Greg's setups.
> Walt


It looks that way. It's pretty straight forward and just a good honest setup. Nothing is a gimmie and nothing is a trick but a solid Qual test nevertheless.


----------



## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

Duck Creek said:


> Wow you guys have been busy I have some reading to do. Did anybody save the water pic from Greg or Greg could you post it again so I could save it.
> 
> Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Nice water test

Thrown 1,2, Flyer M1 is retired and M2 is in the water (closer to shore than in the pic)

Jon


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

This is shot right, left, middle

Wind is slight from right to left

All dead birds, NO flyer 4th series Q

Set up was determined by least amount of swim time yet hopeful challenging.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Maybe so Walt. 10 dogs maybe to the 4th series. I believe there is enough there to get dogs to take differing lines thus differing looks on the judges pages to get my winner.

I guess a guy could retire one of the guns. I am not a big believer in retiring a gun in the Q. Find some good marks and go from there. If a retired is a need then do it.

THANKS for the input


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Walt, I don't know how to put lines on the pics but you have just posted my idea. I like it. Dog to the line !!!


----------



## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I also would like a mark on the right side of the tree right in front of the line. Make it a Quad.


----------



## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Maybe it's the nature of looking at a picture, but it seems like most of these setups are thrown right in a pile. Definitely too tight for a qual IMO.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

We are talking about Q dogs here. I'm not sure one would need a quad. 



Sundown49 aka Otey B said:


> I also would like a mark on the right side of the tree right in front of the line. Make it a Quad.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

I don't think this pond is all that small. I have worked with a lot less. 
I would tend to agree with Charles. I think the 2 long swim birds might be a bit tight. Also, it looks to me that where the line is set dogs might have a tough time seeing the middle gun station. Obviously things can be tweaked to make it work AND we all work with our co-judge.

Ken made a comment on an earlier picture that he did not like watching dogs swim forever. I guess I am in that same corner.




[email protected] said:


> Charles...I think it's the pictures. The middle bird is landing 30 - 35 yards away from the long guns. At least that's my idea. And in a pond this small, the marks are going to look tight anyway.
> Then again, maybe it is too tight and shouldn't be done. That's why I'm here, to learn to do better. I want to hear what's wrong or right about the set up.
> Walt


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Wind is right to left

Money bird obviously is long angle bird.

Tougher picture because of the dead falls and stands. Safety would need to be a huge factor with any set up here.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

q water test all guns stay out. order is left, right middle. Some prunning of sapling on left may be required before test. Broken branch removed for flyer mark. Dogs that beach early on Flyer mark may be tempted to go long.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Walt, training and trialing are 2 different matters. 

I certainly believe, as you do, that we need to train on these long down the shore birds and YES you are going to see them in a trial. I prefer not to do them in a trial. Obviously Pete Plourdes does and that is fine.

I also agree with you on the retired birds. You will see them in trials, as a matter of fact, the first Q placement my now retired 7 year old dog received she had a double retired in the first AND the 4th. So yes we need to train on them and get our dogs ready for the AA stakes.

However, one of the people I train with was one of the last judges to judge a national that DID NOT use a retired gun. His thinking is find good bird placement/marks and if you feel the need to add a retired gun then do so. "Try to find marks without a retired gun 1st". 

So we do train for them but that does not mean I want to use them as a judge when it is my weekend assignment.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Greg... would you send the dog from your left side, on the right hand mark, even though the throw is left to right? Assuming you had a two sided dog.
> Walt


Walt, I do have 2 sided dogs. I don't follow the rule of thumb though religously. It depends on the individual dog and wether they push or pull on the send. If I had a dog that pulled I would send from the left. Otherwise it's from the right. Gotta know the dogs. But i'm using the whole mat or line on that one to get the most square entry I can.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

q water, double with wipe out flyer. 1 big mark to remember and a lot of real estate to cover. some dogs will suck back in behind the flyer most will get pushed left by nervous handlers and end up in no mans land to the right.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Duck Creek said:


> Nice water test
> 
> Thrown 1,2, Flyer M1 is retired and M2 is in the water (closer to shore than in the pic)
> 
> Jon


Nice test, only critique is the dead bird in the water unless its the go bird. Drifting and sinking should always be a concern. As well as dogs that break on the flyer. (pick up dog required) Logistics shouls always be a concern.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

q water test # 3. again a double with a retired. Dog that hammers this test is ready for all age work. Toyed with the idea of shooting the flyer out into the water off of that point where it's landing. Stick ponds are great for that. If I have a pick up dog available I just might do that. Dogs going for the retired are going to be reluctent to go back in the water off the dike and end up back behind the flyer. Sometimes when you have water that looks like this a good double is all you need. This would also be a good last series derby with both guns up.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

nice all age water blind as long as you can see the dog get into last piece of water. hard to tell from the picture.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I guess you can tell I'm snowed in today


----------



## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

greg magee said:


> I guess you can tell I'm snowed in today


I hear ya, brother! Lookin' like tommorrow too. Course we'll be out playing in it tommorrow.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Greg... with a strong wind perpendicular to the line, from top right corner of picture to the ****. What's your cast off that **** and into the water if the dog starts running up, or hunting the ****? Say the **** has been scented all along the potential landing area. Oh, and also, would you use a safety whistle on that strip of land just before the last piece of water?
> Walt


vocal right angle back for the first question, have to know your dog though.
safety whistle would be an absolute for me. won't cost you anything in the long run and I like to be back for the 4th series. If your going for the blue you can play cowboy if your clean up to this point. I would like to run that blind though. again nice water!


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the patient reply Greg, I know I asked the same question before. But this was tighter, less room for error ( I think ) and there was the question of the safety whistle.
> Walt


safety whistle was absolute, sorry i wasn't clear. second sentence


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

http://s797.photobucket.com/albums/...n=view&current=MVC-007F-1.jpg&t=1265487737160


Could be done as a triple all guns out: left, right middle flyer

OR

Double #1 on left, retired and the flyer #2.

Another snow bound RTFer

Tim


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Greg, how about shooting the water bird as the Flyer?



greg magee said:


> Nice test, only critique is the dead bird in the water unless its the go bird. Drifting and sinking should always be a concern. As well as dogs that break on the flyer. (pick up dog required) Logistics shouls always be a concern.


----------



## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

greg magee said:


> vocal right angle back for the first question, have to know your dog though.
> safety whistle would be an absolute for me. won't cost you anything in the long run and I like to be back for the 4th series. If your going for the blue you can play cowboy if your clean up to this point. I would like to run that blind though. again nice water!


Your asking the dog to make an angled exit on to a long **** that slopes to the left and runs parralel to the water, definitely a silent right over, leave no doubt in the dog's mind that it is to get back in the water and off the ****. Along with the safety whistle on the last piece of land, to get back to the fourth series.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Wade said:


> Greg, how about shooting the water bird as the Flyer?


No problem with that wade, still need to make sure pick up dog is available though, anything can happen in minor stakes. That would be a beautiful flyer too.


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Tim...As a triple, would you try to pull out the shorter right hand bird after the flyer? Or would you take the long mark then the right bird? Looks like dogs could keep right on going on that short right hand mark.
> Walt


Short right bird after the flyer. The dog has been looking at the gun all the way back from the flyer and they know they have gotten the flyer. Plus the bird they are going to run deep on will be the right hand bird. The water, the ditch/hill and the gun will all push the dog to the right and into the big open field. I want them to check down after going long for the flyer.

JMO

Tim


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Goldenboy said:


> Your asking the dog to make an angled exit on to a long **** that slopes to the left and runs parralel to the water, definitely a silent right over, leave no doubt in the dog's mind that it is to get back in the water and off the ****. Along with the safety whistle on the last piece of land, to get back to the fourth series.


Which cast depends on if you have a "water seeking" dog. A right over may put some dogs out to sea too far and once my dog reaches the first dike I'm going to want to keep my left in my pocket. 

AH! Decisions Decisions!

Tim


----------



## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Greg explained to me in detail why he uses that cast to get a dog into the water off a ****. He also knows very well that most people would use an over. *He warned me that a verbal angle back is the cast he would use because it works for him, and I should be very careful *to know my dog and make my own decision. This all happened on a different thread, I repeated the question here because on this set up, this cast needed much more control, I thought.
> Walt


I like and respect Greg, glad to know that this cast was specifically for his dog ;-). That ****, scented, the smart cast in competition is a silent over, water-seeking dog or not. In training, it would be a silent right angle back.


----------



## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

Mmm... is it **** or Dike?


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Wind slight left to right

All stations are out

I could not figure out how to make changes in the paint booth BUT I would like to change my order. Middle #1, Flyer #2, Long bird #3.

I think the way the test is set up in its orginal format it would not be all that difficult. I do think it would be tougher with the new order. I think it would be very difficult for a young dog to take the long bird first. I believe going past 2 shorter birds to get to a go bird would be the waterloo for many dogs. The handler would have to make a selection choice.

Is that messed up thinking?


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Goldenboy said:


> Your asking the dog to make an angled exit on to a long **** that slopes to the left and runs parralel to the water, definitely a silent right over, leave no doubt in the dog's mind that it is to get back in the water and off the ****. Along with the safety whistle on the last piece of land, to get back to the fourth series.


Mark, I'm running a Labrador Retriever Only kidding buddy, As I told Walt it's an individual dog thing. I don't follow the hard fast handling rules. I modify them to fit the dog, instead of fitting the dog with the program. I guess it's a carry over from water forcing on my part. *Almost* all my forces are from the remote cast position. Stopped forcing from my side after my first dog many years ago. I do a lot of angle back cast with minimal force after I have them digging for the water. So I would feel comfortable giving vocal angle back. As far as scenting that stip of land, don't know wether I'd do it or not. blind looks meaty enough.


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Wade said:


> Wind slight left to right
> 
> All stations are out
> 
> I could not figure out how to make changes in the paint booth BUT I would like to change my order. Middle #1, Flyer #2, Long bird #3.


IMHO a "cheaters delight".
The dog that likes to avoid water will point hop and land on the middle bird and on the long bird when the dog either never gets in the second piece of water or beaches early they run to the gun and the wind gives them the bird.
JMO
Tim


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Tim, does it get a thumbs up or down?

By the way I would not throw the flyer into the wind. So the wind direction would be right to left. Sorry

Walt, remember that most birds will be placed where judges don't think dogs will want to go. If your dog won't stay on a point to hunt because there is another piece of water behind it then you might be in trouble.


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

Wade,
The change of wind direction does help make the right mark better. Leaving all the guns out I have to ask myself: Where else would these dogs go?(retiring the middle or facing the right neutral makes it tricky). 
On the middle bird some dogs may over run/swim but if they can mark a gun they will stay close to it. The same for the right gun they may overrun but come back to the gun. The guns and the water help to contain the dog's hunt.

There is big open field in this picture with plenty room to roam. I would tend to use it to see who really marks the fall.

JMO

Tim


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Wade said:


> Wind slight left to right
> 
> All stations are out
> 
> ...


I like the marks except for the middle bird. i would reverse it and have the gunstaion on the end of the point throwing right to left. All guns out. But this is a very technical test. Only the well schooled dogs will get the long right bird clean. I would agree with Tim that these marks although good from a technical perspective would be better suited for a water test where your boxed in and no room for the dogs to get lost.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

If my math is correct, by interchanging the bird/gunner positions there are 81 ways to throw that setup..... each would have its own set of pros and cons then factor in the wind and.........

Make it an OOF, move the long bird a little to the left, shoot it first and throw it into the hip pocket of the middle gun  

just sayin'

john


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Greg..Reversing that throw on the middle mark would make this a very tough Qual. wouldn't it? The two gun stations would be almost in line.
> Walt


Absolutely Walt, Like I said, it's a very technical test. Better suited for water that is boxed in. Some dogs are going to cheat as tim said going for the long bird. Some point hopping and some skipping the second piece of water comepletely. As a Judge you have to Identify that up from. But for a trainer I would love to train on a set up like that.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Incorporating what both John and Greg have stated. Turning the long bird into a hip pocket would be a good.

Thanks for the insight on the set up Greg, Tim, Walt & John.


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

When considering a left to right wind, By leaving the Flyer on the left and moving the middle BB to the point throwing R to L you sure put a lot of flyer/feather scent blowing to the middle bird. This makes the middle bird tough to get. The right hand long bird would be the least on my worries....just sayin'....;-)


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Polock said:


> When considering a left to right wind, By leaving the Flyer on the left and moving the middle BB to the point throwing R to L you sure put a lot of flyer/feather scent blowing to the middle bird. This makes the middle bird tough to get. The right hand long bird would be the least on my worries....just sayin'....;-)


Yup, you'd have to worry about both memory birds, although if they didn't suck back to the flyer the wind should be dog friendly on that point. Dang judges anyhow.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Polock said:


> When considering a left to right wind, By leaving the Flyer on the left and moving the middle BB to the point throwing R to L you sure put a lot of flyer/feather scent blowing to the middle bird. This makes the middle bird tough to get. The right hand long bird would be the least on my worries....just sayin'....;-)


Like I said, it's a very technical set up. I would enjoy training on it.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Wade said:


>


Upon reflection I'd like to see a little more distance in the setup.

Either move the long station further out or move the LINE back or both

A long up and out retired, hip pocket to a middle go bird, with a OOF and a long run at the water would be a little more chalenging

john


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

That sounds awesome John! Will your dog run that set up in a trial? I think I'd be hard pressed to try it in training.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

2tall said:


> That sounds awesome John! Will your dog run that set up in a trial? I think I'd be hard pressed to try it in training.


Last year we ran the Q and the Amat a few times near the end of the year and will do the same in the spring I expect we will see something as chalenging if not more so every weekend.

BTW on that revised setup I would also like to see the slight wind from r to l ;-)

john


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

John, I did note a wind change for this qualifying set up. I stated that I would not shoot the flyer into the wind. Therefore the wind direction was switched from right to left. I'm sorry that you missed that.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)




----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Jon...How far do you envision that right hand mark landing from the mat?
> 
> Walt


I thought maybe 30yrds use as an erasier type bird with big splash may even get a controled break. This combined with flyer should wear on memory. I don't know if I would see this in a trial but would work on bird in the face in training.

Jon


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

How far do you think that throw would be from the station? It looks like you might need to use a winger to get that throw made.



[email protected] said:


> Jon...How far do you envision that right hand mark landing from the mat?
> 
> Walt


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Wade said:


> How far do you think that throw would be from the station? It looks like you might need to use a winger to get that throw made.


I guessed about 40 yrs or so. I have a thrower that'll get it there 14yr old son has an arm like a winger. He is available to throw (Always for a fee though )

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I thought so. I'd love to train on it.
> If we see that at a trial, i'm done. My dog breaks on any birds, flyer or dead, when they're that close.
> Walt


I don't know about in the Q but I have heard of some pretty close wipe out birds being thrown.

Jon

Blessed with really steady dogs


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Is he a QB or a flame throwing lefty of the mound?


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

He used to pitch now he plays 3rd base but plays inside linebacker in football. 14 and already taller than me (he's 6'0'' has me by an inch)


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Wade said:


> Is he a QB or a flame throwing lefty of the mound?


Watch the throw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxBS1pNoMUo


----------



## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

If you are "training for the Qualifying" your dog should already be doing doubles that would win/place in today's Derby stakes. Most solid derby tests consist of a flyer diversion and a well-placed memory bird--usually a "long" bird. To begin introducing triples, it is often helpful to first do a double then run the longest, memory bird as a single following completion of the double. It enables the dog to become accustomed to 3 birds in the configuration without undue stress at first. As the dog becomes more accustomed to 3 birds vs. 2 birds, start doing it as a triple. 

The dog should also be proficient on cold blinds at this point. Once he does simple blinds successfully (not pattern blinds), begin adding factors a little bit at a time. Don't throw in too many factors at once. Build his confidence and tool kit slowly. Most qualifying stakes will try to run a land blind in conjunction with the marks, often off the backside of the flyer guns/crates. 

Retired guns should be designed so that help from the gunner by popping up or a single step out enables the dog to reorient, then have the gunner disappear again without a lot of motion. This means no retired guns more than a single step from where its thrown from. Make em obvious at first, they'll get better later when factors are added.

A qualifying dog's blind work should evidence a willingness to take a line, to answer the handler's whistle, and to change direction. Most young dogs will exaggerate a cast (take too much) and this should not be a great cause for concern. Practice will make perfect and it will smooth out.
Few young qualifying dogs will handle as crisply as needed to win/place in an all-age stake (I don't say that none will, but it will not be the norm). 

When folks say train for the Open, it means that's where the focus will be and the goal to attain. It doesn't mean set up all-age tests--that's like learning to run before you can walk--it doesn't work well at all. It means that you will start at the beginning to teach your dog the necessary skills for the open later in life. When your dog becomes proficient at the level you are currently working, add a little more difficulty to the mix--not all the time, but challenge some. If the dog meets the challenge well, add another step to the mix. Each dog will be different in his progression and ability to absorb new hurdles quickly.


----------



## Tim Carrion (Jan 5, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> how about some blinds with these Qualifying marks??
> Walt


In today's Q's it is the rare to see a water blind and water marks together. As a handler I cann't remember the last time I ran one. As a judge we set one up several years ago since our first series was water marks(another rare event).Wide double mark 1 retired, blind down the middle.

Tim


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Are you looking for blinds only on this one Walt?

If memory serves me correctly, we did marks on this picture.


----------



## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

Unfortunately, the qualifying often gets the less desireable grounds to choose after the Open/Amateur stakes make their selections. I have run many qualifying stakes where the water was VERY limited. Often a bird was just placed left or right of the line and off the near shore wherever it could be visible. It was often a very exciting bird because--

it was close;
it was shot straight out into the water or at an angle that made it almost a wipe-out bird; and
it really made the dog lose its concentration on the more difficult birds.
Like Tim, I rarely see water blinds in conjunction with water marks. They just take too much time to do together. Most judges like to have that water blind as a separate series to be able to make a final cut of the dogs that are not seriously in contention for a placement at that time.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Really sorry about all the lines. I couldn't figure out how to remove the Mark lines. I tried to drag a new picture into the paint booth but it wouldn't let me.

Anyway, hopefully you can get a little picture of the blinds. These were done without thought of where the Marks were going to be. So disregard the triple that is set up. These are strictly a few blinds that I picked out from the picture angle. All are on a point, off a point. Pretty basic Q stuff. Some have angle entries.
I think scenting or poison birds are a bit much for this level so these were done without any thought of those factors.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Trying to compliment Wades 4th blind. As black and white as I can get it, 2 past the points and one over the point.
> Wades 4th blind gives the dogs a perfect picture of where they're supposed to go. I remember running it last August.
> Walt


Walt I like this set up, but in training I would make all three past the point starting further away from the point and gradually getting closer. Doing three in a row or a "threepeat" will get the point across to the dog in a slow progression. This all depends on your dogs level of progression. A young Q dog out of the derby you may confuse him with 1 over and then 2 past. Just one man's opinion.

Jon


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

1 & 3 are good blinds. 2 just kinda sez swim.
1-offers a chance to get on and off the point per the judges.
3-offers a little channel type blind, with a point and an island .

Just sayin'.....;-)


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

Still gotta teach 'em How and When to Swim-By & WHEN/HOW to get on and Off............;-)


----------



## Polock (Jan 6, 2003)

The getting on da point is simply Dave Rorem thoughts, 'Get on as late as ya can, get off as early as ya can' , but the knowledge of the CORRECT cast to get dem off is what gets ya to da next series........;-)


----------



## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

For training Duck Creek makes a good point about the 3 peat. 

For a Qualifying blind in a trial #2 looks pretty good. Angle in, do not run to the end of the close point to get in, by that point, by the next point, cross an island or a big point and then jump or swim across a channel at the end to get to the bird. No tricks and it looks like the dog will be in sight except for the possibility at the far channel right before the blind.

It's hard to guess the distance, cameras can make close look far or far look close, so I could be way off on the appropriatness of the blind.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I'd be running training blinds from down in the corner and back out towards the photographer. Another nice training blind is from the mound in the upper right of the picture to the beach on the left side. Just didn't want to clutter the picture with too many lines.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Greg, kind of like I did.


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Greg, the entry on the blind closest to the tree line would be a tough SOB for any aged dog. I think a lot of dogs would try to dive into the water right at the bottom/base of that channel.
I think you are correct about coming of the mound in the upper right hand corner.

Anyway, all 3 have very nice long angle entries. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Wade said:


> Greg, the entry on the blind closest to the tree line would be a tough SOB for any aged dog. I think a lot of dogs would try to dive into the water right at the bottom/base of that channel.
> I think you are correct about coming of the mound in the upper right hand corner.
> 
> Anyway, all 3 have very nice long angle entries. Thanks for sharing.




Remember we're working on the big game, 
In training, I don't have any issues with following the dog down to the water. And on that tough blind I would be on my dogs heels making sure I got the cast I wanted so you and the dog get something out of it. But it is a good training blind. Come back in a week or so and run it cold from the top.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

In the picture with the white lines,do the lines cross Is two the left hand bird,and one the middle ?

john


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Greg, don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Of the 3 that one is is exceptionally tough. 

I would most likely start from up close. "move up to simplify, move back to challenge".

Thanks


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Walt I think this would be a better training setup for those blinds. More black and white. (swim past point, notice that each progressive blind gets tighter to the point) IF you start with a blind over the point and then the next two past it you are sending mixed signals to the dog. In training I like to work on one thing at a time. I would then come back in a few weeks and run the same three going over the point starting fat and getting thiner.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Very good!!
> Walt
> 
> I wish I had taken some pictures from the other end, we did cast off drills on those 3 points. Wind was perfect for it that day too.


 
I have to tell ya Walt you have some very nice grounds to train on. Water is out biggest opsticale up here. :mrgreen:

Jon


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Very good!!
> Walt
> 
> .


Lets not be to hasty, balance is a cornerstone of training. The dog must be comfortable doing either. In that regard, red B1, Blue B2 , red B3 would fill the bill.

john


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

john fallon said:


> Lets not be to hasty, balance is a conorstone of training. The dog must be comfortable doing either. In that regard, red B1, Blue B2 , red B3 would fill the bill.
> 
> john


John I respectfully disagree with you running order, with an all age dog sure but with one in the category of Q more black and white training is what I strive for with a young dog if you swim past the point and then over it and then try to skim the point you are telling the dog 2 different thing, and you'll end up with a fight trying to get your dog past the third point with out getting on. Not only that but how can you justify correcting a "young" dog for getting on the point on B3 when you just told him he could get on the point on B2. We work on one factor at a time. Run Red blinds for a few days. Leave the property and come back in a couple weeks and then run the Blue blinds. Balance is key, but why try to get it all in one day. Work on one thing then balance it out with the other on another training day.

Just one man's opinion,

Jon


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Duck Creek said:


> John I respectfully disagree with you running order, with an all age dog sure but with one in the category of Q more black and white training is what I strive for with a young dog if you swim past the point and then over it and then try to skim the point you are telling the dog 2 different thing, and you'll end up with a fight trying to get your dog past the third point with out getting on. Not only that but how can you justify correcting a "young" dog for getting on the point on B3 when you just told him he could get on the point on B2. We work on one factor at a time. Run Red blinds for a few days. Leave the property and come back in a couple weeks and then run the Blue blinds. Balance is key, but why try to get it all in one day. Work on one thing then balance it out with the other on another training day.
> 
> Just one man's opinion,
> 
> Jon


You are correct in that it does not have to be done in one day with the very _inexperienced_ dog. But at some point in training, before the dog is ready to run a "Q" it should be able to do both on the _same_ blind and be comfortable doing it.

john


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

john fallon said:


> You are correct in that it does not have to be done in one day with the very _inexperienced_ dog. But at some point in training, before the dog is ready to run a "Q" it should be able to do both on the _same_ blind and be comfortable doing it.
> 
> john


 
John,

Agreed I was thinking about a dog fresh out of the derby or even a derby dog in the way the training was set up. Even with a more sophisticated dog I will train on just one factor and then counter it in training the next week. (swim past point one week and then over the point the next) with that being said you have test in your training at some point to make sure they fully understand the concepts which is where I see your order to be benificial to expose any issues with those factors. Thanks for clarifying.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

john fallon said:


> You are correct in that it does not have to be done in one day with the very _inexperienced_ dog. But at some point in training, before the dog is ready to run a "Q" it should be able to do both on the _same_ blind and be comfortable doing it.
> 
> john











test with this:

John I also would rather put both in one blind to test my training than to run two seperate with one in each. Like the blind above both over the point and then past the second.

Train with this:
Red for a couple days and then come back in 1 to 2 weeks and run blue









Jon


----------



## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Here's a picture of the property used in the last series of a Qualifying up in Canada last June.
> Walt


Walt is this water at Baypoint Kennels?


----------



## Greg Seddon (Jan 7, 2005)

I had my dogs with Dan Devos for a few years 2003 to 2005 and I would go over and day train now and then. I have not been to Baypoint in a couple of years, since I have been running just US FT's and now I train with Al Arthur of Sandhill Kennels couple days a week when he is up in MI for the summer and early fall. Dan & Glory Devos are great people and ton of fun to be around and they sure can throw some great parties.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Walt,

You've been to some really nice training grounds in your travels.

Jon


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Jon...Where ya been??
> Nice test.. Pretty rugged with an out of order flyer and 3 long swims. I'd like to reverse the go birds direction, more separation of AOF for the babies? (that's what Ted called them) Might not need to retire that gun, looks like a tough test without it. Which way is the wind?
> Walt


 
Walt,

It's may be a little rough  It's hard to judge the distance from a pic. The go bird should land in the water.

Jon


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Nice piece of water. better suited for all age test but thats what we're training for right. Beautiful spot for wide open triple. No need to get technical here.


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

If these are qual tests, you guys have got me seriously freaked! I think I am going to be ill. Our first trial is next weekend, and after looking at these, I wonder why?????


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Jon...Where ya been??
> Nice test.. Pretty rugged with an out of order flyer and 3 long swims. I'd like to reverse the go birds direction, more separation of AOF for the babies? (that's what Ted called them) Might not need to retire that gun, looks like a tough test without it. Which way is the wind?
> Walt


Ohh we've been trying to get some good training in. but its hard with all the snow. Guided a pheasant hunt yesterday. I agree this seems like it might be more of an AA test. I was thinking the wind at your back.

Jon


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

greg magee said:


> Nice piece of water. better suited for all age test but thats what we're training for right. Beautiful spot for wide open triple. No need to get technical here.


I like that middle mark.

Can we shoot the Flier short and first........... please

john


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

2tall said:


> If these are qual tests, you guys have got me seriously freaked! I think I am going to be ill. Our first trial is next weekend, and after looking at these, I wonder why?????


2T if your dog is doing this



> Marks retired birds consistently, I do a lot of single retireds and I like to so a 80% success rate. I like to see the dog handling blinds in a very journeymen type manner. Working well with you on blinds in the same field where the marks were. Great waterblind attitude. Should be very bidable in the water and not trying to get out. A good channel blind is a must. Your going to see it in the qualifying. Comfortable swimming for a retired gun while swimming past the short mark. If you can do all this, you can win a qualifying. maybe not first time out because anything can happen on any given day. But you'll be comfortable knowing your dog can do the work.
> Greg Magee


you'll be just fine. Most of all just have fun. I remember a derby I ran with my chocolate male "Gator" last spring. 1st series short bird was angled back across a ditch. Sent the dog went right in line with the aof got just past the gunner and broke down and started a nice tight hunt. Let him go hoping he would hunt back across the ditch. Then he kicked up a song bird laying in the grass and like a rocket he was on it. Just had to laugh and try like he** to get him back in. They don't always do what we would like them to do, but just go with the flow and have fun.

Jon


----------



## Ricky Elston (Nov 25, 2004)

2tall said:


> If these are qual tests, you guys have got me seriously freaked! I think I am going to be ill. Our first trial is next weekend, and after looking at these, I wonder why?????


Don't worry about what you see here...he'll do fine


----------



## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Thanks Ricky. I am mostly concerned about the water, as we have had virtually no water work in over 3 months. But then I figure no one else has either. These long blinds they show here over and tight past points worry me if they are typical Q tests. I am going to run some blinds in our neighborhood pond this week, (gators asleep) if the neighbors don't run me off. I guess there is not much they can do!


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> This thread is not just about a test that you may see at a trial. It's about breaking down the tests and training on the concepts. Specifically to get us thinking about how we'd train to get through a tough set up.
> For example, the first thing I thought about on this recent picture is how I'd go about getting that slice of water on Jon's right hand mark. Or getting the dog to take that same slice and then down into that cove on the far shore on Greg's middle mark. What I may correct for, if she does this or that. And what I need to be on my toes for, with what my dog may be weak on.
> 
> Walt


 
Walt,

Very well stated. Carol I think you'll do just fine in your upcoming Q Please keep up posted as to how you guys do.

Jon


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

john fallon said:


> I like that middle mark.
> 
> Can we shoot the Flier short and first........... please
> 
> john


John, if this was a trial and this is what they gave me for water I'd probably only shoot a double with the left hand mark being the flyer and the middle mark retired. 

Carol, if you look at post #10 it says what I feel you need to be accomplished at before entering the qualifying. If you're not accomplished at these things then save your money until you are.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Jon...How are the Pheasants doing with all this snow and cold? It's hard on them isn't it?
> Walt


 
we guide for a local game preserve so his birds are pretty hardy. This is one of the best places I have guided for as far as preserve hunting. Jim starts releasing birds in April and continues untill the season opens. We do plant the birds that the client has payed for, but in the fall we end up getting more birds than we have planted. We also give the birds some time and they are hardly ever where we put them. We don't have a wild bird population to speak of here. Can't beat getting the dogs on birds especially when someone else is paying for them


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

This is such a big piece of water I have tried to minimize the swims.

Birds #1 & 2 are a mom & pop of the point. #1 is thrown to the small island, while #2 is thrown to the tip of the point.
#3, Go bird is long swim. Bird is thrown right to left past bushes to give the dogs some running room up there.
Wind is slight at the handlers back.

However, with the water being so big I agree with Greg and maybe just do a double. Using the same line or close to it, I would consider shooting a flyer off the tip of the point into the open water. Then running a long retired behind the flyer station across the big water up the hill. Possibly cutting the corner off the back side of the flyer if it wouldn't be to tight.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Wade said:


> This is such a big piece of water I have tried to minimize the swims.
> 
> Birds #1 & 2 are a mom & pop of the point. #1 is thrown to the small island, while #2 is thrown to the tip of the point.
> #3, Go bird is long swim. Bird is thrown right to left past bushes to give the dogs some running room up there.
> ...


Wade, I like the 2 left hand marks, don't care for the mark on the point though. Turn that into a boat mark off to the right and make it a delayed triple, long gun, boat mark, come back from boat mark shoot island bird then go for long one. Boat marks are good to train on. You would be surprised how many dogs act like they have never seen a boat. A good drill to practice when you're around big water and lilly pads


----------



## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Great thread, interesting to note how long the training, testing threads go on.

John Lash


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Island birds are a difficult concept if one does not train on them, not so much so if you do. On this one, If it were in a test, a cheating dog would be rewarded by being put in a good position to get/wind the mark.

In training , if you handle on the cheat.. same thing you put the dog on a good line to the mark. 

john


----------



## Wade Thurman (Jul 4, 2005)

Greg where would you throw the boat mark to? Toward the point or away from. John you are right about the wind give away on the island bird. Let's have a wind switch go from the boat straight acoss the water. Now we have a cross wind from left to right. Thanks for the input


----------



## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

greg magee said:


> Wade, I like the 2 left hand marks, don't care for the mark on the point though.




I agree on the mark on the end of the point. The worst I've seen is birds thrown on to a point that was sticking out in toward the line. The birds were thrown angle in toward the line on to the end of a point. All the honest dogs were afraid to get out on the point. They swam right to the end of it, then swam around and up the shore of the point, getting out at the base of the point and then had to hunt their way back out onto the point. All the cheating dogs swam straight to the point, and got out on the end, stumbling right onto the birds. I was just shaking my head wondering why you would throw a mark to reward a cheating dog.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Two canoes right in my face in this picture, and I never once thought of a boat mark.
> Walt


throwing marks from the canoe is not for the sqeamish Walt. make sure gun has a lanyard


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

Wade said:


> Greg where would you throw the boat mark to? Toward the point or away from. John you are right about the wind give away on the island bird. Let's have a wind switch go from the boat straight acoss the water. Now we have a cross wind from left to right. Thanks for the input


anywhere of to the right about a third of the way out. always good to have a boat mark day. you could move the boat along and just throw doubles all day. nice water for that.


----------



## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Here's another one. Good for Boat marks?
> Walt


I'd like to see one with the boat set up behind the long thin island thrown hard angle back to the round one behind it. I'm fairly sure that the dog would perceive them as one and hunt the first one. 

Put the line down toward the shore at about the middle of the picture so the dog has to have an angle entry and swim through the slot between the island on the right and what appears to be a point.

Throw another mark anywhere ,even on land off to the left so the boat mark is a memory bird.

BTW the days of me standing up in a canoe throwing birds are over

john


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Walt,

Couldn't pull up the pic in Paint. By the way love your avatar

Jon


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

The key mark here is the right hand mark across the pond.
you can throw any of the boat marks shown here and get a little out of it. I would do the boat marks as a drill one day and then come back and run the right hand mark with what ever boat mark you think you need the most to get something out of the double.


----------



## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Lets see what you guys can do with this property










same place different view


----------



## JeffLusk (Oct 23, 2007)

This thread is old.. but I just looked at every set up!!! I didn't like all of them, but still looked.

Thanks guys.


----------



## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

JeffLusk said:


> This thread is old.. but I just looked at every set up!!! I didn't like all of them, but still looked.
> 
> Thanks guys.


What didn't you like and why, please put post #


----------

