# Force Fetch Video, How we doing, Suggestions Needed



## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

This is Sandy's first day on force fetch. We have been working on hold for the past week or so. I normally put my dogs with a pro at this point but I am trying Sandy on my own. Let me know what you think.

First Session 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ46MuH2l74

Second Session 9/1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp5C5WRi_0w

3rd Session 9/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvm2sOfcE2c

4th Session 9/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SmPV1ltH4s

4th Session -- *" ON THE GROUND*"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9yaFXbnseA

9-6 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuObbteIGMI

9-9 Session, 2 sessions about 20 minutes apart put together in one video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ZAcqITjQ4

9-14 Session
http://vimeo.com/29075823

9-28 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWBOuEMnB9U

9-30 Session Lets make it fun today per suggestion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFsjNBKM9Ao

10-4 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=F4T81jLWABM

10-6 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmY2rs-1g5A

10-8 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgJni5YSSGw


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

It looks very good to me. The only comment I would make, is that with my pup I did not use the command "hold". My pup just finished FF with Sharon Potter, and from the beginning when the dummy or dowel was placed in his mouth he was expected to hold it. We did not introduce a new command. Your dog acts and reacts a lot like my pup. Willing and able. I can not say enough about Sharon's work with my dog. When we went to the field using ducks, the pup did his job superbly. Part of his table work was learning to sit on pick up, and it has carried over beautifully. I could not be more pleased. This pup is better with his birds than either of my older dogs. I guess it does pay to use experience when you have it available!


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

2tall said:


> It looks very good to me. The only comment I would make, is that with my pup I did not use the command "hold". My pup just finished FF with Sharon Potter, and from the beginning when the dummy or dowel was placed in his mouth he was expected to hold it. We did not introduce a new command. Your dog acts and reacts a lot like my pup. Willing and able. I can not say enough about Sharon's work with my dog. When we went to the field using ducks, the pup did his job superbly. Part of his table work was learning to sit on pick up, and it has carried over beautifully. I could not be more pleased. This pup is better with his birds than either of my older dogs. I guess it does pay to use experience when you have it available!


So you do not use the hold command? Or once you move to ff you drop it then?

thanks


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

That was an exceptional first session. And, while it’s not the technique I prefer overall, it’s clear you’ve done an excellent job of preparing this dog for the work. I’m especially pleased with the fact you so consistently praise genuinely for compliance. Most men are poor at this.

Your fundamental obedience appears plenty good enough that she doesn’t need to be tied up. She sat firmly with no squirming at all, and showed a good solid hold. I would like to take this opportunity to mention some reasons why my procedure varies from what you're doing, and provide you with some rationale to consider.

I only use tables to save my aging back. I do not lash them to chains or poles, but rather rely on sound obedience work prior to beginning FF work. For the majority of my forcing I sit on a plastic bucket with the dog close to me at my side. 

In your clip, note that as soon as the bumper is in the dog’s mouth you completely release the dog from your physical control. I’ll post a clip here showing my technique, which includes not really pinching the dog’s ear, but rather holding the ear flap between my thumb and forefinger and pressing it against a pressure point on the collar buckle for well controlled pressure. When the dog fetches I only release the pressure, while maintaining control of the ear. If the dog drops the fetch object (I use a paint roller for a host of reasons) I can instantly turn the pressure back on with no time loss. Timing is important in all dog training.

If, at the end of my sessions, I decide to throw a fun bumper I can do it with instant timing for effect, while not losing that timing through the need to unleash the dog from a chain or an kind of halter. Just some points to consider. Very nice job. It may be even better, but I leave it to you to decide on any changes you may desire to make.

BTW, I do use the "Hold" command in the early going, but evolve out of it as I go along. I want the function of holding to become a component of fetch, and I think that fairly takes some time and exposure for the dog to understand. Eventually I abandon in altogether.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mxo6wdHl2w

Evan


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Evan said:


> That was an exceptional first session. And, while it’s not the technique I prefer overall, it’s clear you’ve done an excellent job of preparing this dog for the work. I’m especially pleased with the fact you so consistently praise genuinely for compliance. Most men are poor at this.
> 
> Your fundamental obedience appears plenty good enough that she doesn’t need to be tied up. She sat firmly with no squirming at all, and showed a good solid hold. I would like to take this opportunity to mention some reasons why my procedure varies from what you're doing, and provide you with some rationale to consider.
> 
> ...


Thanks Evan. I will take a look at the link.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Some general observations. I agree with the basic comments by Evan re the table and needing to tie up this particular dog. I also agree with the importance of priase when the dog complies. It is as important as the pressure.

However, this dog appears to be very tractable and somewhat soft and sensitive. She is nonetheless being stressed. Notice her panting and her sloppy sit. She showed this same floppy sit when you were teaching her "place" in another video. These are submissive and/or stress gestures. 

You are encouraging her "soft" behaviour by excessively praising it. Praise should be directed at the behaviour of the fetch and not carried on for a long time afterwards praising her concerned behaviour. Sometimes you can pet them and try to make them feel OK especially after a refusal that required more pressure. But if you keep saying "good dog" over and over after the behaviour you start to weaken the great power of praise and you start to praise the wrong behaviour. I hoped I have explained the difference between excessive and misdirected praise and well-timed and needed praise.

Having said all of this, I do not expect that you will encounter many cooperation problems with this young dog. However, I think you can foster a sharper more confident and more animated dog by being more judicious with your praise. 

As some of you know I now prefer an approach closer to the Hillman method and so the dog is in more of a prey drive mode and much more animated. This helps a softer cooperative dog perform with more pizazz!

Carry On and let us know how she responds to later steps!


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

First I'll echo Evans' compliments/comments and add......


Your high table makes it so you can just stand there but puts you in an awkward position. If your pup actually tried to reach for the object the tied in position makes that difficult. 

While certainly not freaking out on the table, I just believe the pup would have a better attitude walking at heel on the grass and stopping from time to time for a few pinches then moving to a new location. That gives you the ability to have all her thoughts/motion *forward*, even the very start of fetch is about beginning the process of getting the dog to 'think' _forward_. I want the dog at my side and the fetch object to be in front of the dog. 

_For me fetch means reach forward...then forward and down...then forward to an object.....then forward to a pile...the T...them TT....then 'blind, always thinking forward._ Down the road I would never say fetch to a dog picking up off the ground and either stop its forward motion or yank it back to heel.

When a beginning FF dog is reaching just a bit my first move with the dummy is away from then [then down] as I want them to learn it's OK to move forward to get the dummy.

You look fit and healthy and shouldn't have any problem bending over 12-15 time a session. People that truly do have physical issues would be better off building a carpeted table about a foot high and 16' long so they could fetch like they were on the ground without the bending issues.

Moving a bit between a few pinches is your dogs friend. Just think how much you relax when the dentist gets his hands out of your mouth and allows you to adjust your position in the chair. I think it's the same with a dog.

Both fetching on the ground and an intro to pinch pressure at a lower level of pressure would most likely give positive results in attitude and grasp/application of concept for Sandy imo.

The video is an excellent example of how many many dogs are FF that IMO would benefit from a different approach.

In any event, you're doing well given the limitations of your table.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> First I'll echo Evans' compliments/comments and add......
> 
> 
> Your high table makes it so you can just stand there but puts you in an awkward position. If your pup actually tried to reach for the object the tied in position makes that difficult.


I agree. Good observation, Alec.


Alec Sparks said:


> While certainly not freaking out on the table, I just believe the pup would have a better attitude walking at heel on the grass and stopping from time to time for a few pinches then moving to a new location. That gives you the ability to have all her thoughts/motion *forward*, even the very start of fetch is about beginning the process of getting the dog to 'think' _forward_. I want the dog at my side and the fetch object to be in front of the dog.
> 
> _For me fetch means reach forward...then forward and down...then forward to an object.....then forward to a pile...the T...them TT....then 'blind, always thinking forward._


I think that's a great way of expressing the progression. All the early fetching is forward. You're literally building momentum as you force forward, especially as you move through Walking Fetch, and on into Force to Pile.


Alec Sparks said:


> Down the road I would never say fetch to a dog picking up off the ground and either stop its forward motion or yank it back to heel.


I hope I'm understanding you correctly on this, Alec. How far "Down the road" are you thinking on this? I ask because in heading down the road in FF progression, FTP comes into play, where that's just what happens - especially when we school them not to shop the pile. Are we on the same page?

EvanG


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Your looking good.
I think new folks can be frustrated and mislead when they keep seeing these calm dogs on video's . I think it gives them the impression of this is how your obedience must look before you begin FF. Some dogs are forever heathens. And can never sit calmly without being overly stressed like that when being tied down and expecting an ear pinch is on the way. So this post was for all those people who are still waiting to FF until they have a dog that looks like this one. A dogs obedience can be pretty good until percieved or real pressure is applied. Your dog appears softer and plyable and seems like she would be very relaxing to FF

I often use the 4 fingers through the collar approach,,,very similar to a bull riders grip. Reach for the ear and hang on.

I agree with the posts above,,especially Dennis's. Very good read on the dog, And I am also impressed that there is some one now with clout talking about "prey drive mode" I believe teaching of and in this concept will help lots of people overcome many different problems that occure from training 'out of drive"

Pete


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Evan said:


> I agree. Good observation, Alec.I think that's a great way of expressing the progression. All the early fetching is forward. You're literally building momentum as you force forward, especially as you move through Walking Fetch, and on into Force to Pile.I hope I'm understanding you correctly on this, Alec. How far "Down the road" are you thinking on this? I ask because in heading down the road in FF progression, FTP comes into play, where that's just what happens - especially when we school them not to shop the pile. Are we on the same page?
> 
> EvanG


Yeah, we're on the same page. I'm talking about the people that have the dog fetch off the ground 2' away [during fetch] and then yank it back to heel rather then move forward with its movement.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Yeah, we're on the same page. I'm talking about the people that have the dog fetch off the ground 2' away [during fetch] and then yank it back to heel rather then move forward with its movement.


Gotcha'! I agree. That happens far too often.

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I would agree with the recommendation to not chain the dog. This dog doesn't need it. I agree with Dennis on the sloppy sit. Maintaining a standard is important, by getting her off the chain you can better enforce proper sitting. I didn't see an earlier video of her but right away didn't like the slouching. I would recommend not being so involved in taking the bumper. Right from the beginning I would be having the dog release and give up the bumper. I would recommend slowing your movement downs, calmer or perhaps softer voice with the praise on the fetch act. 

/Paul


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## Ernie (Sep 29, 2010)

The responses have been very enlightening. I am ff my pup now. Finished a week of just hold and walking hold and now about a week into the ear pinch. Al the comments are relevant and very helpful.
Thanks


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Evan Graham, Retrievers ONLINE-, Alec, and the rest of the gang..I often wonder if folks really understand how incredibly lucky it is to have your presence on this forum..You guys are incredible..

The hand coming completely off of the ear was the one thing that really grabbed me as well, as I was taught to _never_ take your hand off of his ear, regardless of if you're applying pressure or not.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

I'm speechless. So horrible, so shocking, so cruel, I nearly expired from yuckymusciodosis while watching.

Moving on....I think your youtube example was the best clip showing fair and humane negative reinforcement training I have EVER SEEN. Using ear pinch adversive from your first signal/cue to your last (stopping) the aversive event, the escape training was fluid. 

Having already taught the dog an excellent hold (HER MOUTH IS SOOOOOOOO CALM), after a couple of trials she seemed to gained expected relief even if the praise was a little too overboard. I would wait for further sessions as others have mentioned. Could have been a little faster also. 

You ignored what some call , dogs bags of tricks, with her trying to escape by lifting her head and leg/paw. 

You continued in a pretty smooth (-) and calm manner keeping stress and thus learning pathways clear with very little unwanted fallout. 

I would have no diversions ie son, regardless you reconnected well. 

I SAW NO PUNISHMENT, WHICH IMPRESSED ME NO END!! 

Would like to see not on a table toooooo. 

Outstanding first attempt, with dog on very short chain...better than opportunities to "self" escape. 


Conclusion: Music choice -F (he he) 
Clip: A +


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

To the question you asked me, no, Sharon does not use a "hold" command. Actually everything is silent except for the "good dogs" given as praise. The only word she introduced as a command was "fetch". I am not even in the same solar system with these other guys as far as knowledge and experience. I chose to have a pro I know do this for me as I felt like I was dragging out the process while I learned, to the detriment of the pup. But I am fascinated with this new (?) approach that is being discussed here and will for sure explore it with my next dog. BTW, my pup is one of those, "much more animated" types, but your method, using the table, worked very well for him. His first session was indeed very much like yours, but a tad more bouncing about and too many repeated "sit" commands from me!

In the end though, all I can say is the results are beautiful. I am very excited to see his good line manners, delivery and bird handling with absolutely no loss of attitude.


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## Geiss (May 5, 2010)

I've got nothing to add that hasn't already been said by the veterans here, but wanted to say you've got a very nice looking pup!

Keep up what appears to be excellent work sir!


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## savage25xtreme (Dec 4, 2009)

RTF moderators - Sticky this thread......


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

I also agree with Dennis about the poor sit. That will be more easily managed when you get him off the table, and onto the ground. Formalizing standard obedience before FF is important, and squaring up the sit is part of that. You'll not only find it easier to keep that standard up on the ground, but you will also find the transition to walking fetch more fluid from the ground position as well.

Evan


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Pondering why worry about a poor sit, which MAY be age related? 

Maybe win a battle, but prefer to win a war? 

(Off to see past youtubes by poster).


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Aussie said:


> Pondering why worry about a poor sit, which MAY be age related?
> 
> Maybe win a battle, but prefer to win a war?
> 
> (Off to see past youtubes by poster).


Not so much as correcting the sloppy SIT ASAP, but more importantly about _how_ the dog is sitting, and _what it suggests_... Mr. Voight elegantly explains, and is a very FINE example of the ability to _read_ the dog that's in front of you..


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Swampbilly said:


> and is a very FINE example of the ability to _read_ the dog that's in front of you..


I agree, thankyou.


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## 25-ott-06 (Mar 7, 2009)

Noted a very quite mouth for first day of FF shows solid on hold before starting very nice and great post.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

> .... Reach for the ear and hang on....


With a different introduction to ear pressure, rarely do you have to or should you have to "hang on" like in the old days when pinching enough to open mouth on the first application of ear pressure was the order of the day and induced many unwanted escape/avoidance behaviors. i.e. trying to lay down, rear up, twist around, etc. etc. etc.

Bummer imo how for many dogs that still the status quo FF technique.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice. Looking forward to seeing how she reacts tonight. I will not tie her down tonight and see what happens. Again, thanks for taking the time to review the video.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> With a different introduction to ear pressure, rarely do you have to or should you have to "hang on" like in the old days when pinching enough to open mouth on the first application of ear pressure was the order of the day and induced many unwanted escape/avoidance behaviors. i.e. trying to lay down, rear up, twist around, etc. etc. etc


Yep
But there are 10 of thousands of people who read this site probably. And a few of them definitely have one.

pete


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Pete said:


> Yep
> But there are 10 of thousands of people who read this site probably. And a few of them definitely have one.
> 
> pete


I want all 10,000 +++ to do it.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> peteI want all 10,000 +++ to do it.


To do what?

pete


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Pete said:


> To do what?
> 
> pete


Introduction to force pressure in a less "threatening" way which makes it easier for the dog to understand the relationship between the pressure and what we want it to do.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Introduction to force pressure in a less "threatening" way which makes it easier for the dog to understand the relationship between the pressure and what we want it to do.


Yep! I'm a low key FF guy. That's one of the virtues of forcing on the ground on the bucket. The close quarters helps keep it low key.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> This is Sandy's first day on force fetch. We have been working on hold for the past week or so. I normally put my dogs with a pro at this point but I am trying Sandy on my own. Let me know what you think.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ46MuH2l74


Very nice......a good first day. One clip is worth a million words, thanks for posting.

Evan, I also liked your clip on hold currently on youtube, it put your comments on this matter in context, thank you for posting it..........

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Introduction to force pressure in a less "threatening" way which makes it easier for the dog to understand the relationship between the pressure and what we want it to do


gottcha
Couldn't agree with you more.

pete


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

I added todays video session on the original post. Take a look and let me know what you think.

Thanks


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Wow! What a great job, and even more you putting it up there for comment! I think that the dog is still a little "hesitant" but that may just be the contrast from my dynamite dogs. I look forward to hearing the critiques from Evan, Alec and Dennis.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

2tall said:


> Wow! What a great job, and even more you putting it up there for comment! I think that the dog is still a little "hesitant" but that may just be the contrast from my dynamite dogs. I look forward to hearing the critiques from Evan, Alec and Dennis.


Thanks Carol.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Here's my best 'between the lines' guess:

You mentioned you usually put your dog with a pro for FF. My guess is that your pro uses a table and FF in this same manner. The table look brand new and you plan to use it.


Couple things:

It may be 'safe' with her but [and I can see why someone would hook a dog in] pinching that way leaves your arm open to getting bitten and [trust me] no matter how mellow your dog is, I wouldn't put my face that close to a dog whose ear I was pinching. You really never know when/how they may react as the pressure increases.

She's backed up against the wall and while [again] she's not freaking out, she ain't real happy and [again] the hip sitting also shows that.

Initially trying to get her up on the table she didn't show then the video cut. Did she not want to get up there?

Again, nothing _forward_ in her thinking.

I persoanlly would be doing more fetches and less of letting her hold so long after one.

I bet with you in a less awkward position and hold her left ear, you could have her moving/fetching/thinking forward a few inches already and using less pressure and getting a quicker response. The left ear position also give you better control of the head so you can help your dog NOT avoid fetching with head movement.

The Steve Wonder [yeah, not PC] head movement is her not knowing what to do when pinched, keep the dummy right at her nose and get her to understand that getting it quickly stops the pinch. It's to early imo to ask her to fetch with a dummy in any other position and counterproductive to have ear pressure any longer then needed for an understood response at this point.

You will be successful FF you dog as you are approaching things, I just don't believe you'll do so in the most optimal fashion .

Sorry to harp.........

Another great thing about FF on the ground is it lets the dog do 'something' it's confident doing....a bit of heel/sit now and then. It's not just all FF, which I believe helps them be more confident during the process. And of course you'll avoid an extra pressure step when you transition to the ground which some dogs require.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Alec Sparks said:


> Here's my best 'between the lines' guess:
> 
> You mentioned you usually put your dog with a pro for FF. My guess is that your pro uses a table and FF in this same manner. The table look brand new and you plan to use it.
> 
> ...


She did jump right up on the table. She is fine getting up moving up and down etc.. tail just a wagging prior to starting the session. Just had over 15 minutes of video and tried to cut it down to best articulate her attitude and response during the session.

The table is just about 6 months old and she has been off and on it throughout basics. All the trainers that I have used in the past do use a table to start with and then move it to the ground. 

I appreciate your comments and I do not look at them as harping. You are just sharing your opinion which I asked for. I hope through this process I can take a little from everyones style and methods to create a method that I am comfortable with. Until then I am looking for as much input as I can get from those that are willing to share their personal experience .

Thank you for taking the time


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Kirk
I think one thing a person needs to realize is that when you post a video,,and ask for critiqing ,,that people are going to look for the most insignificant thing and point it out to you, it is the HUMAN CONDITION . Critiqing is an art in its self,,and when your working with a dog and it is pressure related,,that dog will show you all kinds of different subtle and not so subtle behaviors. Some of these are important to read and counter while others often have no affect on the outcome. I think no matter who is FF or training a dog in some way shape or form,,,we could all find error in what they are doing somewhere along the line. Early this year I view a top trainers video and notice many things counter to the retriever gospel that actually they taught.. No one here is perfect . Everybody tries as hard to be picture perfect but non of us and I mean none of us are.

These are only two things that stand out as important via the internet and being your fairly new to FF.
1 You take alot of time between fetches and
your working on hold way more than fetch 

2 your dog is ready to reach and your holding it back.
let the dog move foward. You will have to figure out how to work the dog when its perpendicular from your front. this way he can move foward. I think the rest is to subtle and insignificant for you right now. And will squelch your advancment if you dwell on it.




> It may be 'safe' with her but [and I can see why someone would hook a dog in] pinching that way leaves your arm open to getting bitten and [trust me] no matter how mellow your dog is, I wouldn't put my face that close to a dog whose ear I was pinching. You really never know when/how they may react as the pressure increases


Its not the face one has to be concerned with most of the time. Although your face is close and is causing a challenge or possibly a threat depending on the dogs temperament . When you go to grab the ear the dog will strike the hand which is grabbing the ear and almost always leave your face intact.. I think the table can certainly cause issues with certain dogs. But this is the way you have chosen and your dog looks fine with it. People all around the world use tables. This should be a non issue. But like with all tools they take time to learn how to use. I don't use them.,,it doesn't make it right or wrong.
Good luck
Pete


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

> ...People all around the world use tables. This should be a non issue....


Yeah, they do. But I don't think they are necessary or in many cases the best way to go.

a lot of people use to shoot their dogs with bird shot for various training issues too.

Common use is not always indicative of optimal use.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Here's my best 'between the lines' guess:
> 
> Couple things:
> 
> It may be 'safe' with her but [and I can see why someone would hook a dog in] pinching that way leaves your arm open to getting bitten and [trust me] no matter how mellow your dog is, I wouldn't put my face that close to a dog whose ear I was pinching. You really never know when/how they may react as the pressure increases.


I had one of the gentlest, nicest little bitches bite me during FF many years ago. Live and learn regards!


Alec Sparks said:


> She's backed up against the wall and while [again] she's not freaking out, she ain't real happy and [again] the hip sitting also shows that.


Good obedience, and you’re to be commended for it. But it isn’t formalized, which includes squaring it up. It’s overdue. A solid, prompt, and yes; square sit will become exponentially important from this day forward as you progress.


Alec Sparks said:


> Again, nothing _forward_ in her thinking.


And that is becoming a larger issue each day as you approach walking fetch and FTP.


Alec Sparks said:


> The left ear position also gives you better control of the head so you can help your dog NOT avoid fetching with head movement.


This connects with the next point.


Alec Sparks said:


> The Steve Wonder [yeah, not PC] head movement is her not knowing what to do when pinched, keep the dummy right at her nose and get her to understand that getting it quickly stops the pinch. It's to early imo to ask her to fetch with a dummy in any other position and counterproductive to have ear pressure any longer then needed for an understood response at this point.


You’re still giving up one of your most important tools; timing. Each time you lose contact with your dog (letting her go entirely after a fetch), you lose the important advantage of timing. No matter how well it’s going so far, there will come a point (if you do this right) that she’ll start spitting bumpers. At that instant pressure should be re-applied. But you’ll have a time lag groping for that ear flap!

Also, that sloppy sit position, and any other aberrant behaviors due to pressure are far easier to manage in a productive manner on the ground with the 3-finger loop under the collar strap that gives you hands on control of the dog’s torso, while allowing you to keep a good grasp of the ear.


Alec Sparks said:


> You will be successful FF you dog as you are approaching things, I just don't believe you'll do so in the most optimal fashion…..And of course you'll avoid an extra pressure step when you transition to the ground which some dogs require.


I agree. A more relaxed dog is in a better learning frame of mind. I think Alec has a great grasp of this.

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Comments on Day Two

I see many improvements in what you are doing and also the dog, not that day one was not good. But, her sit is better meaning she is gaining a little confidence. Your praise is no longer excessive and yet her response is as good! 

At one point you ask your dog, “ Are you having fun?” Did you hear her answer? It was quite clearly _“No”- this is a drag!” “ I can tolerate it and I’ll do what you want, but I’d just as soon be somewhere else!”_

So why does it matter and what can you do? 

First, this dog is definitely on the soft side but really wants to please (or more correctly, doesn’t want to get in trouble!). Notice throughout the whole intro she is acting submissive and soliciting comforting. You are giving her that comforting throughout which thus reinforces that behaviour. I have some concern that when you start using pressure and CC in the field and use e-collar in FTP she is not going to be a happy camper. I would want to liven up this dog, get her excited, become more snappy and confident and be much more forward. As it is now she is dull albeit compliant. Now, I would love that with a real live wire. In regard to that, I also think you have a great demeanour and nice quiet approach with calm voice for a live wire dog but I would want to be much more dynamic with her. I would like to see your voice vary more. When you give praise, really mean it sometimes “GOOD!!!!” Right now you are praising mostly after the give and with a quiet pet and good dog. I think you are still praising the dog rather than the behaviour. Do you understand the difference? Try praising the fetch. get her moving more and reaching. You can do a little “here” on the table to loosen her up. Walk around sometimes while she holds. Walk to the end of the table with her holding and call her. Get her moving. Whenever you get a snappy response, praise her with a big “good”. I would make this my goal-get a snappy response that I can praise. If she was on the ground I could get her lively more easily. 


Additional- more minor: How about not ‘taking’ the bumper from her mouth. Try to just grab the rope and command give-she should drop on command rather than you take it. You might even get some resistance. Try knocking the bumper out after hold and see her responses. I agree with Alex about too much hold and not enough fetch-especially dynamic fetch.


So there’s some thoughts. I really commend you for putting yourself on the line like this. As Pete says, it really opens you to critique. My critique is all related to getting the whole process more dynamic. Nobody said FF has to be drudgery or torturous mentally or physically even though it often is for many. In your case, it’s clear that you are really interested in doing the best that you can. 
Cheers


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

> Originally Posted by Alec Sparks View Post
> You will be successful FF you dog as you are approaching things, I just don't believe you'll do so in the most optimal fashion…..And of course you'll avoid an extra pressure step when you transition to the ground which some dogs require.


Here, let me fix that for myself..


You will be successful FF you*r* dog as you are approaching things, I just don't believe you'll do so in the most optimal fashion…..And of course you'd avoid an extra pressure step when you transition to the ground which some dogs require if you started there.

I understand you're committed to the table. Many of my comments like the one on transitioning are for the benefit of those that may be weighing table vs ground.

Now if I was 5' 0" and dealing with some screwed up adult 80# dog, I might be inclined to use some type of restraint if I thought my health was in jeopardy. 

Evan, I had blood streaming from my hand after asking a tiny 5 mo retriever to "hold" one day.

I just don't fully trust anything that wants to have sex with one of its parents and will eat its own poop.........Just my personal rule. 




> ....but really wants to please (or more correctly, doesn’t want to get in trouble!)....



DINGDINGDING!!!!!!! we have a winner.

Dogs don't want to please "you". Dogs want what's best for themselves and if getting that means doing something that pleases you, they'll comply BUT only if it makes their life "better". i. e. dad's happy so dogs life is better.

Don't think so? Try to train a dog to do something where the outcome for the dog is bad. i.e. come when call but when its gets there it gets a huge shock and you're being pissed off at the dog.

Props for taking the heat on your table/FF and thanks for the PM.

My .02 cents on this is ALL about hopefully helping every dog go through FF in the least threatening/most optimal manner that avoids unnecessary pressure..


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Here's my best 'between the lines' guess:
> 
> You mentioned you usually put your dog with a pro for FF. My guess is that your pro uses a table and FF in this same manner. The table look brand new and you plan to use it.
> 
> ...


Interestingly out of all the dogs I've FF'd, the only real bite I ever took was from a dog on the ground with me bent over doing ear pinch on the ground. Dog got me on the chin and opened up a inch slice. Can't see the scar today with the goatee. When I have them on the table I typically have more control and the "bites" i've received have never been serious. 

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Yeah, they do. But I don't think they are necessary or in many cases the best way to go.
> 
> a lot of people use to shoot their dogs with bird shot for various training issues too.
> 
> Common use is not always indicative of optimal use.


I like tailgates on a pickup as well.  Honest truth is I FF wherever, not that critical. I like my table because it has a beer holder.


/Paul


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## jeff evans (Jun 9, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Comments on Day Two
> 
> I see many improvements in what you are doing and also the dog, not that day one was not good. But, her sit is better meaning she is gaining a little confidence. Your praise is no longer excessive and yet her response is as good!
> 
> ...




Good points, I'd like to add that I just finished ff on my 5 th dog. I used the techniques described by Denis in another thread with respect to using momentary pressure for ff. I was skeptical at first but wanted to experiment with the thought I could always add continuous pressure if I didn't get anywhere with momentary. Also the first dog to ff on the ground sitting on a bucket in my living room Needless to say we completed ff in three sessions, was fetching off the ground after one session. Back to yard work, regards!


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Good thread. My thought other than the sit,praise,avoidance already talked about was the amount of fetches right in front over and over without any progression. Maybe I move to fast but why nag the dog over and over. I didn't see the "need to get the object' to turn off the pressure responce from the dog. I see the dog thinking"ok your pinching my ear a little so I'll open my mouth" After 2 or 3 fetches I start lowering it down and by the end of the first day I might even be on the ground depending on the dog. I do sometimes use a table to start with(had back surgery few yrs ago) but will b on one knee on the ground very soon. I also get them moving as soon as possible. If your bent on using the table I would move it out from the wall so Sandy has to sit instead of lean against it. I don't tie them down but do have a cable and pulley for the crazy ones so if they try to jump off they only do it once.(prob get flamed for that one) but they learn real fast that right there on the table is a good place to be. The big picture is what your doing with that one might not work for the next one so be flexible and train the dog you have. Haven't been bit yet and I'm getting ready to do my first chessie(hope to still have 10 fingers when done)so i've heard.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Dennis is right about focusing your praise on the fetch. Don't praise for the sake of praise. As well, like I mentioned yesterday, you need to make her own the fetch and release. You're continuing to take the bumper from the dog and she should be releasing it. Also, I would increase the time on the table from the roughly 6 minutes your doing now to 9 as well as reduce the hold time. Work towards more fetch repetitions. You using the very end of the ear for pressure, I prefer to be a bit further in the ear lobe. That allows me to have better "ear" control and some dogs are not that sensitive on the outer ear. 

/Paul


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

FWIW while I waiting [again] for a client:

I never look at a clock when I'm training, I judge the session length on what's happening in that session. 12-15 'fetches' and a bit of mellow OB is where I'm at. Sometimes, yeah, it's whatever it takes but hopefully I can avoid those days [but not always].

It's easy to do a fetch every 10-15 seconds. I ask for 3, move a bit and then again. Rinse repeat. 

No/low pressure 'teaching' days can be longer but I try to limit time in the enforcement phases of training getting back to where we were yesterday and a bit of advancement. I don't believe in pushing to see how far I can go every day because you almost invariably ending up basing all your training on failure at some point in the session.

I've read a dog can't learn if it doesn't 'fail' but I don't buy that for a moment.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> FWIW while I waiting [again] for a client:
> 
> I never look at a clock when I'm training, I judge the session length on what's happening in that session. 12-15 'fetches' and a bit of mellow OB is where I'm at. Sometimes, yeah, it's whatever it takes but hopefully I can avoid those days [but not always].
> 
> ...


I kept a log of 15 dogs that I FF'd some years ago. I tracked each session, length of time, overall time to different milestones in the sessions etc. The average length of time for best progress was right about 9 minutes per session. Clearly a portion of this time is recap from the day before and then stretching them a bit further each session and then coming back down to end on success. Like a muscle you have to increase the weight to make progress. Some days are shorter, especially when making a breakthrough. I also observed that taking a day off once in awhile produced better results. Only by reading the dog in front of you, watching their stress level and knowing when to say when will you find the sweet spots for success. 

/Paul


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## Dogman50 (Jun 11, 2006)

The fun thing about training dogs is there are no absolute RIGHT WAYS to do any of the many different tasks and sub tasks we teach them. All dogs are alike in many ways AND totally different in other characteristics.

To use a table or not to use a table, momentary vs continuous stimulation , ear pinch before they have the bumper in their mouth vs after they drop during a hold session ,etc.etc. doesn't mean a thing if the TRAINER ISN'T flexible in his/her approach to the different temperments and abilities of each dog to learn.

You name the sporting breed, age, sex etc. I've probably FF it. Some took 7-8 days , some took what seemed like forever. The most important factor in completing the task of FF on the more difficult dogs was NOT BEING STUCK ON A PARTICULAR PROCEDURE but rather continually reading the dogs response to what we were doing and CHANGING THE APPROACH if we were not progressing.

DON'T GET STUCK IN THE MINUTIA !!

By the way, the really good dogs are easy !!


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

Looks good, one thing I noticed is a loose hold on the plastic. While keeping hold of the ear with no pressure, rap on the ends to tighten hold. If she drops apply pressure and have her fetch again. Like everyone is saying timing is also critical when doing this.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I kept a log of 15 dogs that I FF'd some years ago. I tracked each session, length of time, overall time to different milestones in the sessions etc. The average length of time for best progress was right about 9 minutes per session. Clearly a portion of this time is recap from the day before and then stretching them a bit further each session and then coming back down to end on success. Like a muscle you have to increase the weight to make progress. Some days are shorter, especially when making a breakthrough. *I also observed that taking a day off once in awhile produced better results. *Only by reading the dog in front of you, watching their stress level and knowing when to say when will you find the sweet spots for success.
> 
> /Paul


Sometimes a week when you're stuck on a plateau....

Paul, I was just throwing my .02 out there so some people wouldn't [hopefully] get hung up watching a clock. You, I don't 'worry' about.




> ...The fun thing about training dogs is there are no absolute RIGHT WAYS...


I think there is. 

All dogs should be trained in a fair, humane and compassionate manner where concepts are taught using as little pressure as possible, the dog is fairly shown how a taught command will be enforced and then those commands are enforced fairly and not over zealously or emotionally driven. What's best for the dog during training is always the focus of what training is all about and ego, pride, ribbons and finances take a faaaaaaaar back seat.

But I'm sure you would agree.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Have the Feds set the season bag limits on plastic yet this year? Sorry man just ribbing....

FWIW: I use to have 'odd object day" but now it's limited to a variety of dummies and birds. My 6oz coke bottles and short lengths of ski pole are available for sale if anyone's interested.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

One thing that I noticed as a newbie is that the hold seems a little long to me. As I understand it, you have already taken time to teach the hold, correct? I would think that you may want to focus more on the act of retrieving and moving toward the bumper versus having her hold so long. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

Also, as someone said, try praising the act instead of just the dog. "Yes, good!" right after she has the bumper in her mouth. 

Just some thoughts. Take them for what they are worth (which could be nothing ;-))


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Yeah, they do. But I don't think they are necessary or in many cases the best way to go.
> 
> a lot of people use to shoot their dogs with bird shot for various training issues too.
> 
> ...


What might not be optimal use for me or you may not be for someone else,,,only because of the way we do and see things. Each person has their own preference and a way of doing things. We are all comfortable doing things a certain way. Motor skills and reflexes are a biggy,,, and deminish over time in an individual. Thought patterns,,,,controlling timing on operant conditioners on the fly. Reading whats happening and changing things up on the fly. There is way more to being a trainer than knowledge. Application is most important. This means that only Lardy can train dogs like Lardy,, Rex Carr could only train dogs like Rex,, Alec can only train dogs like Alec,,Dennis like Dennis,,, me like me and so on and so forth. And the funny thing is we share much of the same knowledge. However,,application is the big difference. 

I guess my point is other people can do a good job on a table. I see nothing that makes someone at a greater advantage or disadvantage if they use one or not. its optimal for me not to mess with one. But others do better with one.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having a strong opinion on something like that. But I try to remain nuetral on tecniques unless they break principle. For me one is not neccessarily better than the other... but personally I may choose to use one over the other just because of preference. and comfort.

And I did enjoy you and Dennis's last posts. I think Kirk can put what you guys wrote into application easily because it reads well.

pete


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Pete, thats why I love you! We can only apply so many ideas to what we have in front of us.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pete, thats why I love you! We can only apply so many ideas to what we have in front of us.


Awww geee wiz Carol

How's that new pup coming along. I picked up a new pup this weekend,,,I picked one up last month too.

Pete


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

I got a headache from this thread. 

What am I missing? Positive and negative reinforcement are supposed to increase the behavior. 

Positive and negative punishment decrease.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Aussie said:


> I got a headache from this thread.
> 
> What am I missing? Positive and negative reinforcement are supposed to increase the behavior.
> 
> Positive and negative punishment decrease.


 
A lot of people get headaches when dealing with FF and trying to find the "RIGHT" way. I'm not sure exactly what caused your headache but I am reminded of the saying _"Don't get Paralysis form Analysis"._ In reality a single FF session is likley to have all of +ve and -ve reinforcement and punishment along with extinction, shaping, variable schedules and all the rest. 

It can get complicated quite quickly and that's in itself is a good reason for most people to focus primarily on reading the dog and watching the behaviours. My point in my posts was that while negative reinforcement might be reinforcing "fetch", at the same time, positive reinforcement was being used to reinforce submissive behaviours. As a result there was a danger that the dog learned to fetch but not with confidence, snap and style. 

Sometimes, a dash of punishment can be used to get rid of an undesireable behaviour so we need not think the "right" world only contains reinforcement.

With regard to the posts about the "RIGHT", way, Pete had some good things to say and I have to agree with Alex's earlier response to seek the right way. I prefer to use the "the BEST way" which doesn't imply all other ways are necessarily "WRONG" but that there might be a better way.

I describe the BEST way in my Training Alone book as the way that is effective and efficient while being fair (which includes 'humane') and consistant. Several methods might fall into a "BEST" category so it's probably fair to just talk about "BETTER " ways. Pete might comment that one person may be able to be more effficient and effective using method A than B but Alex would remind us that it also has to be fair and humane (less stressful). 

Finally, I am reminded of some of the axioms of the Principles of Training that Mike Lardy and I developed together: 

_Exact methods may not be as important as the overall approach. _

_Basics and Fundamentals don't change but implementation may._

_Learn to read your dog and respond to what you see._

(see pp. 30-31. Principles of Training from Training Retrievers Alone Study Manual for more.)

Cheers


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Finally, I am reminded of some of the axioms of the Principles of Training that Mike Lardy and I developed together:
> 
> _Exact methods may not be as important as the overall approach. _
> 
> ...



Those few words say more than most entire books on training. 

Everybody should have that tattooed on the back of their hand where they can see it while they're training.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Check out our 3rd Session. Posted on original post


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Pete, I think Dennis, Evan and myself are focusing on [what we see] as super important FF concepts here. None of us are really belaboring issues that will come down to individual idiosyncrasies. 

I only mention the word "right" in an overall training approach but like Dennis [and I believe Evan] I do think their is a 'best' way to train. Now that best way will have some variables based on many of the things you mention but the focus will still be on the important points we've brought up.

I agree that tables can be used in a productive fashion. I don't think many are from what I've see. Of course people can still really muck up FF on the ground too......

I've used tables in the past and I'm familiar with the toe hitch both resulting from a winter spent with a long time pro that employed them. 


Limiting pressure and nurturing a 'forward' thinking dog are FF foundation concepts that all should embrace. With a very critical eye on the methods one is using and the gumption to embrace change mandated in the common status quo FF doctrine, I know may dogs could be FF in a "better" fashion.

I'm also fully aware that many people just really don't have the experience or capacity to either understand or embrace change but that will never stop me from trying to provide insight to those that do/can.

Over the years I've formed the opinion that _many dogs are successful in spite of how they are trained not because of it._


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Comment Day Three:

I was goimg to predict that Day 3 would see a step backwards but I wasn't sure what you weren't going to do so didn't have the nerve

I think we are seeing an accumulation of the pressure having an effect. Notice that her avoidance behaviour at the start is greater- the pawing, the chain reaction, the soliciting, the turn away. She has more sloppy floppy sit than Day two. Usually, in such cases the dog is thinking something like_-"Oh here we go again!! I am going to get in trouble again_". Usually, their predictions are right and so their behaviour gets reinforced. Again during the intro you were stroking her while she displayed all this `sucky`behaviour-in other words you reinforced it albeit subconsciously.

The good news is that this session ended off better in the end starting somewhere around 3:50 or so. There is no question that the movement is helpful to her but she needs more pizazz! She neeeds to feel free and she will respond-watch her tail. HOWEVER, this is going to be a tough road to follow with all the restraint going on. Although others appear to disagree, I think you need to let go of her more, you need to drop that ear hold or collar hold and stop restraining her-she's not going anywhere!!! The chain is definitely restraining her mentally and physically. The little bumper table bounce "chase"is pretty dull and needs more snap. Heck, I might even throw it a few feet. Go to the end of the table and call her-get her moving free. I am still waiting for a litttle excitement from you- you liven up-she'll liven up.

The Give: You are pulling the rope or still pulling out the bumper. Take a hold of the rope and don`t move and say "give" and she should drop. I don`t think she will especially with you holding onto her ear or collar or being chained up. I`ll let you figure out what to do when she won`t drop

OVERALL: You made progress in the end and that is very important. You ended on a better note-VG. Tonite, try for lack of restraint, more reach include almost to ground and better drop. Get excited-"*the attitude you train on is the attitude you train in". . .ML.*

Carry On.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Alec Sparks said:


> Pete, I think Dennis, Evan and myself are focusing on [what we see] as super important FF concepts here. None of us are really belaboring issues that will come down to individual idiosyncrasies.
> 
> I only mention the word "right" in an overall training approach but like Dennis [and I believe Evan] I do think their is a 'best' way to train. Now that best way will have some variables based on many of the things you mention but the focus will still be on the important points we've brought up.
> 
> ...


Alec, could you expand on this statement a little to clarify how limiting pressure supports or does not the long standing belief that FF is mostly about learning to deal with pressure. I have been told from the very beginning that learning to handle and deliver birds properly was only a small part of why we FF to begin with. If we limited pressure to the least possible to get the fetch, will we not be ignoring the rest of the process? 

I think this is the best thread I have read here. Not only very well written and informative answers, but bold enough to rock the boat some. I love it when good people work together for better approaches.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Comment Day Three:
> 
> I was goimg to predict that Day 3 would see a step backwards but I wasn't sure what you weren't going to do so didn't have the nerve
> 
> ...


I added some bold to Dennis's post. 

I agree with everything Dennis said. But, *this was the best session so far*. I thought you were reinforcing sucky behavior when you were talking to the camera that Dennis mentioned. I wouldn't be doing that.

Another 3-4 weeks and ff will be done.

I'd really try and build some more animation into her. Which probably means more animation from you.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

2tall said:


> Alec, could you expand on this statement a little to clarify how limiting pressure supports or does not the long standing belief that FF is mostly about learning to deal with pressure. I have been told from the very beginning that learning to handle and deliver birds properly was only a small part of why we FF to begin with. If we limited pressure to the least possible to get the fetch, will we not be ignoring the rest of the process?
> 
> I think this is the best thread I have read here. Not only very well written and informative answers, but bold enough to rock the boat some. I love it when good people work together for better approaches.


Good question Carol. I was thinking the same thing. Say your handling the dog down the rd and he blows off a couple casts and you give him one more chance and he blows you off again. Are you going to use the small amount of pressure to get your point across? If you never put enough pressure on him during FF so he learns to turn it off how is he going to deal with the pressure you will need to get your point across for blowing you off?


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

2tall said:


> Alec, could you expand on this statement a little to clarify how limiting pressure supports or does not the long standing belief that FF is mostly about learning to deal with pressure. I have been told from the very beginning that learning to handle and deliver birds properly was only a small part of why we FF to begin with. If we limited pressure to the least possible to get the fetch, will we not be ignoring the rest of the process?
> 
> I think this is the best thread I have read here. Not only very well written and informative answers, but bold enough to rock the boat some. I love it when good people work together for better approaches.



Carol, congratulations on picking up a super point _that I actually spent time considering if I should qualify_ as I wrote the post.


When I use the term "limiting pressure" what I have in mind is limiting pressure _beyond_ what I feel is really necessary to:

1. Accomplish the goals of the task at hand.

2. Provide the necessary foundation to properly support continued training

When I force a dog I let the dog move to the dummy as fast as it will. I explore the parameters of pressure [individual to the dog in hand] looking for the quickest response I can get but within pressure limits that I feel going over would be counter productive to the dog in the big scheme of things. 

That fast response limits the length of pressure application to only the duration required by that response time..

Some people feel the only or best way to get a fast fetch response is to hold the dog back but I have never found that to be so. Only in certain situations will I apply pressure and 'hold a dog back'. Yeah, it works, but it also subjects the dog to increased periods of time under fetch pressure that I feel are avoidable much of the time.

A classic example might be the trainer _walking_ the length of a 8 or 16 foot table pinching a dogs ear while it struggles to GO. Again, I find that totally unnecessary and a perfect example of what I'm referring to when I say limit pressure.

Another example might be pinching an ear all the way to a force pile. I wouldn't FTP until my dog was forced with a collar and if I got a collar enforced fetch refusal, I'd feel I had a hole in my collar fetch. Of course the dog would be introduced to FTP in a logical manner.......

There is I believe an optimal level of force for every dog. The trick if finding that level and I think it's of the utmost importance to avoid the "more is better/he's tough and can handle it" mindset and the "how little can I use and still get by" approach which may lead to problems down the road.

Don't let me delude anyone here into thinking I'm some perfect trainer. For me, while my years/dogs experience makes it more straight forward, I still can be very challenged trying to find that optimal balance. But, that will never stop me from trying. The day I say "the hell with it" and "that's good enough I don't really care" is the day I will stop training dogs.

Awesome question.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

You have to let go of the ear. You can clearly see her response to you hanging on to constantly. Like I said on the previous two days, you need to slow down your movements, focus the praise and quit pulling the bumper out of her mouth. Teach her to give it to you, make her own that is is her job.

/Paul


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

labman63 said:


> Good question Carol. I was thinking the same thing. Say your handling the dog down the rd and he blows off a couple casts and you give him one more chance and he blows you off again. Are you going to use the small amount of pressure to get your point across? If you never put enough pressure on him during FF so he learns to turn it off how is he going to deal with the pressure you will need to get your point across for blowing you off?


 
I for one, am not saying just use little pressure! I am saying use the _*"least amount of pressure to get the desired response"*_ or put another way, *Use the least amount of pressure to get the job done.* Sometimes you don't know if the amount was right until you see the next time or even see the behaviour the next day. In your example above about a casting dog, you could easily end up putting MORE pressure on the dog by nagging. When the dog has been taught the lesson and how to respond to pressure, he will not come unglued if corrected in the field after a 2nd cast refusal. 

So don't think therefore that the future field work is doomed if you don't apply maximum pressure all the time in FF. This is only the start. We have much more obedience correction coming, we have Pile work and Double-T and Swim-By and assorted Transition drills before we will be correcting in the field. Conditioning to pressure does not just occur in FF!

With a proper taught and conditioned dog you can use a High 5 if necessary to correct. However, I have found that when many people do, they could get just as good a response with a 4 or even a 3 (or even a 1-2 with a puppy!). That is what is meant by limiting pressure to get the job done. It does not mean no pressure or nagging.

If this isn't clear, let me know because it's a real important point.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

You appear to be fighting the following:

•	Looking away
•	Pawing
•	Biting the chain

When she does those things you wait here out, or grab her paw, or in some way manipulate her out of those issues before commanding fetch. My reaction to those acts is to force the dog instantly, and make that a result the dog quickly comes to expect from doing them. It’s usually very soon that they abandon those acts. As you’re now doing it, those issues are likely to continue, since nothing is happening to extinguish them.

I still see a poor sit position: Backed up against the wall, slouched over on one hip, not facing forward. Haphazard-looking. 

No forwardness about the fetching motion. No momentum foundation so far because there is no forward structure on the table.

Force fetch is a series of tasks & skills, all linked together. They eventually form a fully trained retrieve. As I see the structure (or lack of it) in these few sessions it will be more difficult to assemble the parts moving forward.

I do hope this feedback is helping.

Evan


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Very clear thanks. As well as Alex's reply to Carol. Thanks guys, great thread and hope it keeps going. 
I'm not saying I don't use the collar but I find that the ear to the pile works better for me. If dog has been to the pile several times and decides maybe he is not going to do it again he will get a swift ear pinch all the way there. Tried both ways and after the ear to the pile they seem to get the message loud and clear with most of my dogs. I have FF'd 8 dogs this summer and I think I did it 8 different ways as far as pressure goes. If they were all easy it wouldn't be as rewarding.


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## sethh (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks to the OP and all the pros for their ?s and responses to this. I had considered my dog forced until today. I have a few things to cleam up.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

I missed day 3 somehow. Just watched. As I said earlier I will sometimes start one on the table but wil soon move to the ground. I would have prob started Sandy on the ground. Anyhow I think it's time to get her off of the table(she seems to be using it as a crutch.) As Dennis said you need to get her more snappy and I think you can do that if you move to the ground. The chain is in the way more than anything else and if that table was moved away from the wall she would fall off. I really think you would see a different dog on the ground.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Evan said:


> You appear to be fighting the following:
> 
> • Looking away
> • Pawing
> ...


A further comment on Evan's suggestion to not let her do these avoidance things. I am assuming tha Evan is suggesting to command "fetch" and apply an ear pinch for pressure immediately when she tries these avoidance moves. There are additonal things that you can do and this is a good time to learn them and deal with this behaviour. I suspect that if we saw an obedience session with her, we'd see some of these same behaviours. You can address the behaviour by grabbing her collar and snapping her into a proper sit position when she flop sits. When she paws or averts you can also grab her and snap her to attention. This is a firm but clear form of negative reinforcement if you command "sit" and immediately release when she is in position. This same kind of teaching is done with a puppy when it first tries to flop sit but of course it is far more gentle and is really just showing the way. In this case you may have to be a little more firm but she is inthe habit of trying this.

I'd like to see you do a bit of both types of correction, the Fetch with pressure and the "snap to a sit". I think it will help you in the long run to learn several techniques.

Getting overwhlemed yet?

BTW I was wondering what the OPs real name was and also the name of the dog (never said in the video?) I think we all need to develop a personal relationship with our animals when we subject them to "our wishes". Am I correct you are Kirk and the dog is Sandy? If so, hang in there Kirk and Sandy

PS. And Evan, feel free to comment on this- don't want to make an ass-u-me!!!!!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> A further comment on Evan's suggestion to not let her do these avoidance things. I am assuming tha Evan is suggesting to command "fetch" and apply an ear pinch for pressure immediately when she tries these avoidance moves. There are additonal things that you can do and this is a good time to learn them and deal with this behaviour. I suspect that if we saw an obedience session with her, we'd see some of these same behaviours. You can address the behaviour by grabbing her collar and snapping her into a proper sit position when she flop sits. When she paws or averts you can also grab her and snap her to attention.....
> 
> I'd like to see you do a bit of both types of correction, the Fetch with pressure and the "snap to a sit". I think it will help you in the long run to learn several techniques...
> 
> PS. And Evan, feel free to comment on this- don't want to make an ass-u-me!!!!!


I agree fully, Dennis. I think the "snap to a sit" would be much more easily done from the ground, however.

There have been many excellent contributions and suggestions in this thread. It may seem hard for the OP to remember that with all our suggestions for improvement that he's still doing very well overall, and that Sandy really looks like a sweetheart.

Evan


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

> If they were all easy it wouldn't be as rewarding.


Yeah it would.... 

Vid III:

28 ear pinches........

I guess I won't add anything that hasn't already been pointed out. I may at this point bow out as I don't really have the time/energy to comment on an entire video FF process. I'm sure I'll keep an eye on it though. I hopefully have made my important points about what I see as an optimal path to follow. 

My final though are an echo of what I've already posted....

You'll be successful FF your dog.

I think this is how many dogs are FF.

I think the process as shown is far from optimal.

Thanks for being open to evaluation, hopefully others have gained insight from the comments here and good luck with you dog.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Pete said:


> Kirk
> I think one thing a person needs to realize is that when you post a video,,and ask for critiqing ,,that people are going to look for the most insignificant thing and point it out to you, it is the HUMAN CONDITION . Critiqing is an art in its self,,and when your working with a dog and it is pressure related,,that dog will show you all kinds of different subtle and not so subtle behaviors. Some of these are important to read and counter while others often have no affect on the outcome. I think no matter who is FF or training a dog in some way shape or form,,,we could all find error in what they are doing somewhere along the line. Early this year I view a top trainers video and notice many things counter to the retriever gospel that actually they taught.. No one here is perfect . Everybody tries as hard to be picture perfect but non of us and I mean none of us are.
> 
> These are only two things that stand out as important via the internet and being your fairly new to FF.
> ...





RetrieversONLINE said:


> A further comment on Evan's suggestion to not let her do these avoidance things. I am assuming tha Evan is suggesting to command "fetch" and apply an ear pinch for pressure immediately when she tries these avoidance moves. There are additonal things that you can do and this is a good time to learn them and deal with this behaviour. I suspect that if we saw an obedience session with her, we'd see some of these same behaviours. You can address the behaviour by grabbing her collar and snapping her into a proper sit position when she flop sits. When she paws or averts you can also grab her and snap her to attention. This is a firm but clear form of negative reinforcement if you command "sit" and immediately release when she is in position. This same kind of teaching is done with a puppy when it first tries to flop sit but of course it is far more gentle and is really just showing the way. In this case you may have to be a little more firm but she is inthe habit of trying this.
> 
> I'd like to see you do a bit of both types of correction, the Fetch with pressure and the "snap to a sit". I think it will help you in the long run to learn several techniques.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. About to head back out for another session and I am trying to catch up on all the comments. Without a doubt I am overwhelmed but enjoying every minute of it. I have buddies calling me that are reading this post giving me advice as well as folks on here. All of which I have asked for. I never thought I would get this much involvement with the post. Needless to say I am trying to take what everyone is saying and blend it the best I can. It is a challenge but looking forward to seeing how I can progress through the learning curve while at the same time bringing Sandy through FF.

I*'d like to see you do a bit of both types of correction, the Fetch with pressure and the "snap to a sit". I think it will help you in the long run to learn several techniques.*

I will work on enforcing a better sit. I have had so many comments offline regarding this issue and not to worry about it. I will also unhook the chain. I will try to get her moving forward more. Several of you keep talking about forward thinking. I am not sure how I get that applied in the FF session. I understand that I need her to start thinking about going towards a pile etc... But I am not sure how to get her forward thinking. Would like some examples.

Again, I would like to thank everyone for walking through this with me. I am sure to many of you this is just something that you do without thinking about it. Needless to say I am sweating through each step hoping to not screw up Miss Sandy.

Thanks for the guidance... Kirk


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Just when you though you'd gotten rid of me.........


Kirk, I don't think anyone has asked or we've discussed how you are actually pinching. That can be super important.

Can you explain what you're doing in that respect?

_______________________________________________________

Starting at zero and gradually increasing pressure?

Starting 'up' the pressure scale and holding steady or increasing the pressure?

Have you tried different areas of the ear checking for a different response?

Are varying the pinch pressure or always the same?

If you vary, what are your parameters for using more or less pressure?

Are you always waiting till the dummy is in her mouth or have you ever stopped as she's moving to it?


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Kirkd said:


> Needless to say I am trying to take what everyone is saying and blend it the best I can.
> 
> _*Be careful you are not mixing recipes for apple pie, mashed potatoes and martinis--some blends don't work.*_
> 
> ...


_*Show us a video in a few days if you wish.*_


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Alright so I updated the original post with 2 videos from today. The first is from the table with more movement up and down the table with not chain. The other video is from the ground. 

Sandy seemed to have a better spirit to being on the ground as previously commented that she would. I personally felt alittle less in control with her on the ground. On the table eye to eye I feel like I have more control. 

Let me know what you think.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Alec Sparks said:


> Just when you though you'd gotten rid of me.........
> 
> 
> Kirk, I don't think anyone has asked or we've discussed how you are actually pinching. That can be super important.
> ...


Sandy seems to have the best response when I am just about a 1/2 inch in from the end of her ear. I have tried several spots on her ear but that one seems to get the best response with the least amount of pressure. 

On a scale of 1-10 I start with a 5-6 and if I see her moving towards the bumper then I do not increase the pressure. If Sandy does not show a proper response I increase the pressure to a 6-7 range until I see the correct response. She seems to be motivated up until this point to remove the pressure. Thoughts? Should I change the pressure up/down to see if I get snappy or slower responses?

I release the pressure as soon as it is in her mouth. Should I be reducing or removing pressure as she starts to move towards the bumper?


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Major props man for trying the ground!

Couple things...

I'd have her on a leash and work in a straight line...... Heel, sit, fetch, heel sit, fetch, heel, sit, fetch then a bit of just heeling and maybe even jog a few yards if that seems to happy her up then the 3 heel/sit/fetch/heels again.

Hook the leash to the collar you're pinching on and while I wouldn't let go of her collar, if you do, you can then get quickly back in hand/collar/pinch position by just sliding your hand down the leash to the collar and not spend so much time mucking around trying to get the collar/ear as now happens a lot.

Can you address my question on your pinch protocol? You need a faster response if you can get one and knowing how you're pinching will help us.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Alec Sparks said:


> Major props man for trying the ground!
> 
> Couple things...
> 
> ...


Check on the bottom of page 8. I responded to your post with several questions. Thanks Alec


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Once again Dennis and Alec I agree with you whole heartily. But Kirk continue's to make my point. He has shown 3 video's,,, he has been advised about his praise and how it needs to change,,,,yet he has not changed it. His praise needs pazazz because his dog needs pazazz. But his praise makes my eye lids slam shut.

Kirk,
,your praise is soothing. ,,and there are definitely times to sooth but this isn't one of them. The best way to do this is have one of your training buddies critique you live. And every time you sooth ,,you get smacked. And they remind you not to sooth. believe it or not this may be what it takes to get you to change how you do things. I have done that alot with customers and it does work.

Your having difficulty changing because your mind is focused at the job at hand and you haven't worn the grooves in your mind from your brain to your motor skills yet. its is absolutely normal and almost every goes through it when ever doing a new task unrelated to what they normally do. So you subconciously do what your doing.



Thats the reason your technique/method of application hasn't changed much from day 1 . very normal. 

But you know what. Your still doing good. Its not like you've done a hundred of them

Pete


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Kirk

Didn't think I would replying so soon but I feel compelled to congratulate you and Sandy for great progress and effort.

I hope this thread is also proving of value to others because it's been a unique RTF discussion of FF that should have lessons for many. This has been possible because of the video and not having to guess what is REALLY happening! Well done!

I agree with Alec re going straight ahead. You have been "turn around thinking" on both the table and the ground. Be "forward thinking".

I agree with Pete's comment re "soothing good dog". You tend to overuse the praise and not target it at the behaviour with enough sincerity. Use less but make it more!! Do not praise Sandy-praise what she does!!

Additonal tips: 
-try to avoid the fumbling-just grab the collar and don't worry about the details.
-in the future you will take a bird by getting ahold of it perhaps by the body, perhaps by the wing/head/foot. Practice this now. Don't ask her to spit it into your hand. Take a hold of the rope or the bumper and ask for her to drop while you hold steady. This is the start of forming good delivery habits.
-your progress especially on the ground is because of the excellent "hold" work you have done. You do not need so much "hold and walking". Have her walk around in between without a bumper sometimes. I might even throw her a couple of "breakers".
-time to move towards the ground bumper if not on the ground bumper. Expect a refusal and a chance for reinforcement.

I think you have done an excellent job of incorporating comments. I don't expect this is going to take the 3-4 weeks aS once suggested


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

Great Thread,really good advice I learned a lot following this.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

I've said the same thing 4 videos in a row, as have 3other experienced people. Wash rinse and repeat


/Paul


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Sandy is still in that glompy puppy stage, she's a ziplock bag full of organs and just isn't very physically precocious. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. A look at her current conformation show how she's still growing......

That being, I don't think you'll really get a slick sharp response on fetch or sit for that matter, I just see her as a bit mentally/physically immature. 

Even so I'd be interested to see if I could get a quicker response with a bit more quick [perhaps a bit harder] pinch pressure with the dummy 1" in front of her nose and then work out from their trying to keep the best response you can get. 

Pete's right....not so reassuring but more "up" and animated. 

I don't have any dogs in that stage of fetch but let me see if I can get a cam on a tripod tomorrow and get some video.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Alec Sparks said:


> Sandy is still in that glompy puppy stage, she's a ziplock bag full of organs and just isn't very physically precocious. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. A look at her current conformation show how she's still growing......
> 
> That being, I don't think you'll really get a slick sharp response on fetch or sit for that matter, I just see her as a bit mentally/physically immature.
> 
> ...


I would love to see some video. .that would help alot. thanks


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> I would love to see some video. .that would help alot. thanks


As you organize your fetch sequence better, you'll begin Walking Fetch, and move into Stick Fetch. That all should flow together, but you need to set it up now with better organized forward motion, and stop lettting the dog go for a stroll after each fetch. Looking at this clip should tell you why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAIFgb3Ki0

It's gratifying to see you've gone to ground, but so far you're missing some of its important benefits.

Evan


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

OK, take Evans clip and think about how you now want to approach sandy:

Sitting at your side your present the dummy in front of her nose.

Apply pinch pressure and as SHE move to it you then FOLLOW her movement.

As she takes the dummy you continue FORWARD with her at heel a few steps then have her sit. Yeah, you'll be all bent over because you still need to hold her collar and ear [if you can] as you heel a few steps. 

Repeat.

Once the dog knows to move forward [they learn fetch means they can break 'sit] don't lead your dog in to initial forward motion but follow it and do not hinder it.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

and while I think Evan may have been trying to stay in camera range in one spot. I would add.....
Once you have the dog going to the bumper and fetching. Do not pull it back to you like Evan does.
Step forward. From a bystanders view it will look like a long, albeit awkward, bent over stroll with the dog.
Don't pull back, move forward.
　
.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Sorry the camera wasn't closer......

F O R W A R D....... quick.....happy if you can get it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ3_uz4TD00


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Alec Sparks said:


> Sorry the camera wasn't closer......
> 
> F O R W A R D....... quick.....happy if you can get it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ3_uz4TD00


 
EXACTLY!!!!!! 

Soon it will be lower to ground and then off ground and then walking fetch is a snap. When you start the walking fetch keep moving like Alec does although by this time you will be on lead and you won't have to bend over like a 6' 4" yeti

PS. I just realized how much easier on the back e-collar fetch without ear-pinching is because you never have to do that ape walk --more


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Ken Bora said:


> .. From a bystanders view it will look like a long, albeit awkward, bent over stroll with the dog.





RetrieversONLINE said:


> ...When you start the walking fetch keep moving like Alec does although by this time you will be on lead and you won't have to bend over like a 6' 4" yeti


YUP,
Very Nice. waggity tail on dog, dog never jerked back, Alec stepped up to dog. Nice fast pace. And Dennis called Alec a Yeti? Is that a master of steep, icy cold, mountainous terrain with long thick hair?;-)
　
.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Please, I was 6' 4" when I was 14 years old.


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## awclark (Oct 20, 2007)

So, just one question Alec....why are there TWO horse trailers in your yard???? 
All kidding aside, I am really enjoying this thread as I am in the process of FF with a huge young shorthair..don't even have to bend over to pinch his ear. Lots of really good info being presented here and the videos are the icing on the cake.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Alec Sparks said:


> Sorry the camera wasn't closer......
> 
> F O R W A R D....... quick.....happy if you can get it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ3_uz4TD00


Thanks for the video. I will try it tonight. Thanks


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Evan said:


> As you organize your fetch sequence better, you'll begin Walking Fetch, and move into Stick Fetch. That all should flow together, but you need to set it up now with better organized forward motion, and stop lettting the dog go for a stroll after each fetch. Looking at this clip should tell you why.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAIFgb3Ki0
> 
> ...


Got it I will incorporate. Thanks Kirk


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> Got it I will incorporate. Thanks Kirk


Kirk,

I want to mention, as it was said several times in the clip, that was the first stick fetch session with that dog. Also, it was very cold outside, so we were working in a barn. For both reasons we didn't focus on walking fetch yet. His conversion was so smooth that we went outside the next session and did more forward movement, as is typical of walking fetch.

I don't recommend walking fetch unless your dog is strong fundamentally with FF, as yours is becoming. Not all forward movement involves lots of walking, but that is your goal.

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

Evan said:


> ....we didn't focus on walking fetch yet. His conversion was so smooth that we went outside the next session and did more forward movement, as is typical of walking fetch......
> 
> Evan


Obviously you know the difference Evan, but to the green folk reading it is worth pointing out. Just because somebody is walking, like in Mr. Sparks vid. Does not make it "Walking Fetch";-)
　
.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

The only thing I couldn't figure out in Alec's video is...whats that green stuff? I have yard envy! Less than 1/4 in of rain at my place since late june.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Just posted a new session from this afternoon. on the ground again. Sandy seems to be more eager today to reach for the bumper. I moved forward and tried to increase the pace of the session. As I watch the video though I still see alot of room for more energy on my part. Just not really sure where to put it in.


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## 43x (Mar 29, 2009)

When she gives you those sloppy ( crooked) sits, instead of pulling up on the collar, reach down there and pull the loose skin on her azz and straighten the sloppy sit that way


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## TimThurby (May 22, 2004)

I'd be making her drop the bumper into my hand, besides pulling it out. That's just me though.

Tim


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

TimThurby said:


> I'd be making her drop the bumper into my hand, besides pulling it out. That's just me though.
> 
> Tim


Thanks Tim.. That has been mentioned to me. Having an issue keeping the pace at a higher level of entertainment and getting her to drop the bumper though. She has released pressure just having to remove it though.

Thoughts on how to get a quicker drop?


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Ok, well that looks about a million time better in my book.

That's a lot of pinches in 3 minutes imo. I'd get a few good responses and then take a break with some mellow OB [as in not demanding but 'up' in attitude] for 30-60 seconds, then go again. Try to spread out the pressure..... 20 pinches is about my max unless 'special conditions' apply. That's max not daily.

STOP yanking the dummy out of her mouth. We won't tell you again!  Just saw your 'drop' question: Don't worry about a FAST drop, just get a drop for now even if it takes a few seconds.

At 2:12 you went 'down' with the dummy, That's the angle to the ground I use....about 45 degrees from the nose. She's fetching more then far enough away, time to head to the ground.

Despite a lot of rapid fire pinches she held her attitude pretty well and looked to really come up at the end. In between the 3-4 pinches OB even run a few steps and see if that perks her up, it doesn't/shouldn't be all drudgery/FF hell in each session. Heck, I'll even toss a short happy bumper at this point if the dog will come back and it helps with attitude. Later in FF perhaps not.

Praise: I praise when I see a dog make an real effort. A lot of effort gets more praise, not much effort doesn't get much of any until I see that real effort to comply. It doesn't have to be 15 seconds of praise, in fact a short GOOD GIRL! when she makes a fast/sharp move is fine.

I'm not really worried about the few "avoidance" sit positions myself, that was a lot of pressure in a short time and she held up really well.

Props on the huge improvement....both you and her.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Alec Sparks said:


> Ok, well that looks about a million time better in my book.
> 
> That's a lot of pinches in 3 minutes imo. I'd get a few good responses and then take a break with some mellow OB [as in not demanding but 'up' in attitude] for 30-60 seconds, then go again. Try to spread out the pressure..... 20 pinches is about my max unless 'special conditions' apply. That's max not daily.
> 
> ...


Thanks she has done great the past 2 days its just been dark by the time I was able work with her. I will try to get some video tom.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I am reminded of the saying _"Don't get Paralysis form Analysis"._


_

Who me? Never! ha!

Have a great friend whose next lecture is "Instinct, drive and motivation". As a result, we spoke about topic for 2 hours last night._


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## metalone67 (Apr 3, 2009)

I noticed that when your son walked thru the video that her attention focused on him, her sits became crisp and clean and she looked 100% better. Maybe your son should be doing the FF. LOL
She was more attentive to the task at hand. I agree time to go to the ground.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

You, sir, are on your way! Much better, and progress from here should flow very well. Nice job!

Evan


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I for one would like to say how refreshing it is to see, some one ask for advice, and be so humble and appreciative of the critiques and enhancements offered from some of the most knowlegable people on this site. There have been times in the past where people have posted videos or pictures in search of advice , only to turn on the people who replied because the critiques they recieved didn't match their own theology. A breath of fresh air to say the least. Good luck with your dog sir. You are doing great!


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

greg magee said:


> I for one would like to say how refreshing it is to see, some one ask for advice, and be so humble and appreciative of the critiques and enhancements offered from some of the most knowlegable people on this site. There have been times in the past where people have posted videos or pictures in search of advice , only to turn on the people who replied because the critiques they recieved didn't match their own theology. A breath of fresh air to say the least. Good luck with your dog sir. You are doing great!



Video is a powerful tool when used for improvement. I have been able to get some of the most experienced trainers to walk through this process with me. 

The advice that I have received from this thread has given me the confidence and knowledge to learn as I go through the FF process. I am grateful for the time, knowledge and detail that everyone has put forth into Sandy's and my training. 

Will post some new footage today or tomorrow.

Thanks again for everyone's input.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Added a video from yesterday. It is 2 sessions about 15-20 minutes apart put together in this video.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

greg magee said:


> I for one would like to say how refreshing it is to see, some one ask for advice, and be so humble and appreciative of the critiques and enhancements offered from some of the most knowlegable people on this site. There have been times in the past where people have posted videos or pictures in search of advice , only to turn on the people who replied because the critiques they recieved didn't match their own theology. A breath of fresh air to say the least. Good luck with your dog sir. You are doing great!


I agree and because it didn't get ugly it seems more than just Kirk learned alot.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

At this point in the FF I have questions for Kirk.

What do you think of your progress? Are you happy with Sandy's attitude and her responses? What are your thoughts on this method of FF? Go back and watch you and your dog. What do you think?

Where will you be in a week? I am always preparing for the next step while doing the current step- what are you preparing for? 

When do you think you will be doing "cold" blinds? What is your schedule to achieve this?

These types of questions will help you train YOUR dog and not just do things by rote from some canned program. Please take notes on your thoughts and progress because they will be INVALUABLE for your next dog (and God Willing-there will be a next dog!)

I want to see to see you Fetch off the ground yesterday!!!(and with a better "drop" and more "impulsion" and "off lead/ear").

hint hint.


Cheers


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Yeah, I was curious as to your thought on how you feel the ground works for you dog compared with the table too. Also the other questions are of interest.

OK, I looked at the last vid you did and here are my thoughts.

Just for fun put you LEFT hand under her flat collar fold her LEFT ear back and place it between your thumb and her collar and see how that feels control wise. That right ear pinch is just looks awkward. Give it a try.

Enough with the in front reaching already, transition down to the ground at about a 45 degree angle from he nose....no further then a step away so when they go to the ground on that angle you can move with them and not impede them.

I'd have a dog at this point on a leash, nothing bulky though. I loop it through my left fingers [left hand pinch] so when I got a fetch I could slip my hand from under the collar and up the leash and heal a bit. Holding the leash, if you get a drop you can quickly slide down the leash and reestablish the collar/ear hold easily. I wouldn't be leash heeling after every fetch but maybe 1/2-1/3 of them.

Get her so she understands 'praise' isn't an excuse to sit 45 degrees to you. She needs to know to sit straight when she's praised imo.

I still think you want a bit of a faster fetch response if you can get it. Try going with a light pinch on a fetch and if you get a slower response then go to 3 harder pinches in a row and see what you get.

I know you've moved around a bit from table to ground but 9 sessions with that girl and I would expect to be fetching off the ground as she looks pretty straight forward [so far].

Good work.


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

I agree with most of the coments espicially retrieversonline. It's great that you are using this as an education forum. I only have 3 comments and they are only designed to generate a little positive thought.
Point 1 - It works well if you try to get the dogs tail to wag during the FF session. It's not hard. A little praise at the right time is all it takes.
Point 2 - I understand it but I don't like the dog being held up tight with a collar. I like freeom of movement. I understand that the dog has to stay still but I let the table teach him to be still. My table is 1ft X 3ft and 1ft off of the wall. I place a leather choke collar around the neck and adjust the rope (tied to the wall) so that if the dog jumps off his back feet touch the ground. Example, if the dog jumps then I step back and let him. I wait a few seconds then scoop him back onto the bench and don't say a word. After a minute I ask him to sit and after that they (dogs) are still and ready to work. 
Point 3 - I noticed you holding the ear before you require a correction. I believe that you get a much better explanation by not touching the ear or the cord (ear pinch). You give the command, wait 1 second then apply pressure to the ear or toe if there is non compliance. The dog should not feel that the pressure is going to come rather, if there is a refusal then there's pressure. That allows the dog to understand they escape the force by grabbing the bumper. You can tell if you are doing correctly by the speed of the dog when he reaches for the bumper.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

A couple points to check. 

Personally he is not close to going to the ground in my book but should be. I haven't seen much progression for a few video's now.
Here is some thing you can video.
Hold the bumper up and out a little on a 45 or so ,,so the dog has to lunge upward and out alittle for the bumper. HAVE him on a leash and keep your hands away from his ear. Then say fetch,,,, See what he does? It might be he won't fetch when your hand is not under the collar. And maby he will who knows,,,but I check things like this along the way. I consider this a step to accomplish before going to the ground. Give him an oppertunity to refuse at this first stage and conquer it before moving on. It won't take long. It will make it easier on the dogs brain when you progress.

Refusing is often a good thing and should be capitalized on.

Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

At some point are you going to abandon the ear pinch entirely in favor of the continuous with the e-collar ? You should, and I think this transition is now or soon due.

john


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

New video posted from today.

Again thanks for all the advice and questions. Sandy and I are moving through this process but with some stumbles. I would like to see her more excited about the process she needs alittle more help from me. Seems like my timing is getting better and trying to praise her better and at the right time. I will not lie moving to ground I have felt less in control than on the table. When I moved to the ground with the bumper as well this week I really felt uneasy. I trained with a Pro today and in between set ups had him take a look at her. Needless to say his pace was faster and his timing was better. He really got her excited so I am trying to replicate that session. I had a faster pace in todays session still not at the same speed that he had her at though. I tried focusing more on forward movement and building on momentum as created. I also switched my grip as Alec was talking about. That has helped over the past couple of days.

It was interesting to see her earlier today with the Pro. It showed me several things that I need to work on to help her get through this process. I believe that some of her attitude and sluggishness is due to my learning curve. He was very encouraging as everyone has been here as to the progress we have made to date. 

All in all I like the ground but I am more comfortable on the table. I switched collars and it creates a noticeable differences. The change in hand position makes it much easier to get back to the ear if needed. 

As I look over the past couple of weeks I am pleased to see where we are today. I look forward to seeing how we move on from here. 

Again, thank you for all your help... Kirk and Sandy


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Thanks for being so forthright in your assessment of you skills/learning curve. It makes the point very very clear, 'successful' and 'optimal' are two different things. 

IMO far to many people are satisfied with successful and never strive for optimal. Fine if you're working on a lawn mower but I've always felt that when a dog is on the sharp end of the stick, every effort should be made to train in a manner focusing on what's optimal for the dog, not the trainer.

Many people don't want to hear [and can be quite resentful] that how they trained or are training their dog isn't really that great despite 'success'. Keeping an open mind and having the guts to admit that perhaps 'you' can improve [or should change] is paramount to advancing your skills and the quality of training your dog receives.

Props for being open minded Kirk.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Thanks for being so forthright in your assessment of you skills/learning curve. It makes the point very very clear, 'successful' and 'optimal' are two different things.
> 
> IMO far to many people are satisfied with successful and never strive for optimal. Fine if you're working on a lawn mower but I've always felt that when a dog is on the sharp end of the stick, every effort should be made to train in a manner focusing on what's optimal for the dog, not the trainer.
> 
> ...


"Is the dog learning because of my training or in-spite of my training..."

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

http://youtu.be/XsZpdHal4Oo


/Paul


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> "Is the dog learning because of my training or in-spite of my training..."
> 
> /Paul


In the much bigger/more difficult/vastly more important scheme of things: 

Is repeatedly pinching a dogs ear to the point of pain for days at a time morally sound? Is there a better way? Can we use or develop and widely implement a "FF program" that greatly reduces pressure on the dog yet still produces the foundation needed for advanced training?

Much current/popular FF doctrine is terribly poor in my opinion.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> In the much bigger/more difficult/vastly more important scheme of things:
> 
> Is repeatedly pinching a dogs ear to the point of pain for days at a time morally sound? Is there a better way? Can we use or develop and widely implement a "FF program" that greatly reduces pressure on the dog yet still produces the foundation needed for advanced training?
> 
> *Much current/popular FF doctrine is terribly poor in my opinion*.


Please be more specific.


john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> In the much bigger/more difficult/vastly more important scheme of things:
> 
> Is repeatedly pinching a dogs ear to the point of pain for days at a time morally sound? Is there a better way? Can we use or develop and widely implement a "FF program" that greatly reduces pressure on the dog yet still produces the foundation needed for advanced training?
> 
> Much current/popular FF doctrine is terribly poor in my opinion.


I just finished working with a dog/handler that emphasizes this. The handler had been told horror stories of FF and how brutal it was. After failing to pass 4 or 5 seasoned test due to lack of control on blinds and not delivering to hand, plus having issues getting proper response to corrections in the field during training he reluctantly asked for assistance to FF the dog. By week three he commented that FF was nothing like what he thought it was or had been told it was. 90% of my instruction to him was centered on properly timed and focused praise while constantly working on better timing allowing for less intense pressure overall and still getting the proper command responses and reaction to corrections. He has a very nice little dog and has titled the dog, and looking forward to finished. 

/Paul


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Please be more specific.
> 
> 
> john


To much focus on "pressure" not really caring about anything but "success".

Sometimes weeks of pressure that could be accomplished far quicker and at much lower levels.

The entire concept of pinching a dogs ear [or toe] during initial training hard enough so it opens its mouth in protest drives me bat poop crazy.

Thousand of trainers training thousands of dogs blindly following a complex and delicate procedure with the though that: It's not a big deal, it's not like it's going to kill him."

FF is some Holy Grail of trainer dog relationship builder.


Many people that will never be able to see past the end of their table. 

People that view the entire current doctrine as "fine".


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> To much focus on "pressure" not really caring about anything but "success".
> 
> Sometimes weeks of pressure that could be accomplished far quicker and at much lower levels.
> 
> ...


You have now "thrown down" the gauntlet on some pretty successfull A list Pros and Ams.

Have any Nationals been won by dogs trained with the so called "soft collar " approach................

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

what might be an optimal method for one dog may not be for the other.

Let the dog be the indicator of how what why and when you are going to do things.

Pete


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

john fallon said:


> You have now "thrown down" the gauntlet on some pretty successfull A list Pros and Ams.


Someone better.

Look at retriever training 25 years ago. [just a tad more harsh back then don't you think?]

Look at it now.

Look ahead 10 years

Where do you think it should be going?



> Have any Nationals been won by dogs trained with the so called "soft collar " approach................
> 
> john


I have no idea what a "soft collar " approach is.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I just finished working with a dog/handler that emphasizes this. The handler had been told horror stories of FF and how brutal it was. After failing to pass 4 or 5 seasoned test due to lack of control on blinds and not delivering to hand, plus having issues getting proper response to corrections in the field during training he reluctantly asked for assistance to FF the dog. By week three he commented that FF was nothing like what he thought it was or had been told it was. 90% of my instruction to him was centered on properly timed and focused praise while constantly working on better timing allowing for less intense pressure overall and still getting the proper command responses and reaction to corrections. He has a very nice little dog and has titled the dog, and looking forward to finished.
> 
> /Paul



The session I had earlier in the week with the Pro helped me focus on several things you mentioned:

Timing
Praise
Focus
Speed


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> The session I had earlier in the week with the Pro helped me focus on several things you mentioned:
> 
> Timing
> Praise
> ...


Frankly after all the dogs I've done I have come to look forward to this section of training because it provides the opportunity to really bond with a dog. Real quality time with them


/Paul


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Kirk, it's been 9 days since you posted a video of Sandy's ff. You were beginning an interesting time in the ff progression and I am wondering how you got through it.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Howard N said:


> Kirk, it's been 9 days since you posted a video of Sandy's ff. You were beginning an interesting time in the ff progression and I am wondering how you got through it.



Need to get one uploaded. She is having some great days where everything looks like it is clicking and then she has had a couple that have made me really question what is going on. 

When should I introduce the e-collar?

I still am having an issue of getting her more motivated..


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

That is a dog to dog read. Do you plan to stick fetch, or go directly to CC?

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Evan said:


> That is a dog to dog read. Do you plan to stick fetch, or go directly to CC?
> 
> Evan


Evan

I have a much more important question for you. 

Do you really think that this is how force fetch to the ground should be done? 

Do you really think that this is the way that a dog should be prepared for either stick fetch ot CC? Is this dog ready for either?

Has this dog been taught anything about responsibility to comply especially without constant pressure?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Dennis,

I haven't commented on that at all. I'm only asking what his plans are for the steps of stick fetch & CC. That's because he asked about when to move to CC.

I don't like that last session nearly as much as some others did. I'd slow the pace a bit, and clean up that sloppy hold; fetch to fetch. But that doesn't address his question about when to CC. 

To continue, it's not a matter of formula. It's a matter of readiness, but also a matter of a chronology of events. If he isn't going to stick fetch, the timing of CC will be different. The dog does not appear ready for either to me.

Evan


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> FF is some Holy Grail of trainer dog relationship builder.


Every thing I do with a dog I try to see things through their eyes. and obsearve how they deal with issues.

While FF may not be the wholely grail of dog training,, negative re-enforcement is the single most powerfull operant conditioner which developes respect between dog and trainer. This can be done with about any command. If done properly you can take the nastiest of the nastys and live peaceable and as an alpha type. Dogs in wild packs perform this OC naturally. And they apply just enough pressure to get it done. That can range from gentle pressure to a knock down drug out fight. And peace and respect are usually borne because of it. Most dogs in a leadership position instinctively know how much force to apply.

Push force or should I say negative re-enforcement to the limits and see dogs through a whole new light. But like you said Alec,,use the optimum of technique.

Is it a holly grail,, only Monty Pithon could tell us. Is it one of the best conditioner for problem solving.. I believe so especially coupled with the other 3 to make sure there is compete understanding.


Pete


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Sorry that I have not gotten any videos. Sandy and I have been pushing through the process very well until the past couple of days. Sandy gets it but is just not snappy forward moving. I continue to try to praise to get her desire higher.

I put the e-collar on her mid last week. Not higher than a high 2 at anytime during the process thus far and staying in the med to hig 1 mainly. Sandy showed great forward movement better than any I had experienced with her at anytime through FF yet very early on in the process with the e-collar. We were moving long great. Then she starting hanging her head in the sit position. I started enforcing a better more positive sit with a correction by pulling her in to place with her collar. In doing so the condition got worse and she is slouching with uncertainty in the sit position. Her movement to the bumper on the ground continues to improve with little to no pressure required though.

I am pretty sure that I did not help the issue from my response. I tried this morning and yesterday giving more praise to help Sandy with her confidence in the sit. She still looks very concerned. 

I will try to get with her tonight before it gets dark to upload a new video.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Kirkd said:


> I am pretty sure that I did not help the issue from my response. I tried this morning and yesterday giving more praise to help Sandy with her confidence in the sit. She still looks very concerned.
> 
> I will try to get with her tonight before it gets dark to upload a new video.


I hope you can do that. From your last video, and based on this most recent post, she is not ready for the e-collar, or even the stick. There is a risk that moving ahead at this point may implode your progress.

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Comments on Day Two
> 
> At one point you ask your dog, “ Are you having fun?” Did you hear her answer? It was quite clearly _“No”- this is a drag!” “ I can tolerate it and I’ll do what you want, but I’d just as soon be somewhere else!”_
> 
> First, this dog is definitely on the soft side but really wants to please (or more correctly, doesn’t want to get in trouble!). Notice throughout the whole intro she is acting submissive and soliciting comforting. You are giving her that comforting throughout which thus reinforces that behaviour. *I have some concern that when you start using pressure and CC in the field and use e-collar in FTP she is not going to be a happy camper.* I would want to liven up this dog, get her excited, become more snappy and confident and be much more forward. As it is now she is dull albeit compliant.


I wrote the above on Day 2. I have just watched the last FF video and Kirks description of use of the e-collar. 

I have two concerns. Firstly, why so few people have not said that they don't like what they see. Secondly, I still see after all this time all of the problems I saw on Day 2.

Frankly, I hate doing FF this way. I could barely watch the last video.

1. The dog is sitting there apprehensive and submissive. She is praised and petted for this behaviour. Have I not made it clear that this praise is reinforcing this wimpy behaviour? You say you tried to praise her to speed her up. You mostly praised her apprehensive behaviour.
2. Throughout the entire video, her tail is tucked and she is showing great concern. I repeat something said earlier (a quote from Lardy). _The attitude that you train on is the attitude that you train in_. This dog is being trained to be slow, concerned and unwilling.
3. You might as well have this dog chained up back on the table. For the entire session she is chained to your hand and her ear is pinned against her collar. To her she is constantly being threatened. I believe that is an awful technique. I know it was suggested perhaps by somebody but it a big problem for this dog.
4. First fetch she is pinched (to the point of a yelp) before she can even respond. Second fetch same and maybe every one I can't tell. With the constant ear hold it might as we'll be everyone with no freebies for several minutes.
5. This dog has not been taught to be responsible for her behaviour. She really doesn't have to make much effort becasue she is forced to do everything. I don't see any situation where she can be corrected for lack of effort while she is constantly held and threatened.
6. There is nothing in this method for the dog. Nothing to break it up. She needs to be released and to have some variety. These sessions must be torture for her.

There is talk about not using force to teach but this method of FF (which is widespread) is using force to teach. There is talk about negative reinforcement (which is increasing a behaviour as a result of an aversive being removed because of a behaviour). This isn't negative reinforcement because the aversive(the ear hold) is there all the time even after the fetch. 

So I expect a poor reaction to the sting of the e-collar even at extremely low levels. I don't even want to think about a level 4 or 5 reaction.

OKay folks-sorry for being so blunt and opinionated but it is what I think. There are better methods.


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm not as smart or experienced as Dennis and I'm not sure I see everything he sees. But, I think, I see this process the same way he does. Loose the good girls until you see her actually doing something better than the norm. At about 1:59 of the 9/14 video she scoots faster to pick up the bumper than had been her norm. That's one time I would have praised in that session. 

Seems to me that you are reinforcing her fears.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

> .....I have two concerns. Firstly, why so few people have not said that they don't like what they see......


1. Common current FF doctrine found endlessly on the Internet and some books/DVD espouses this technique.

2. Adeptly FF many dogs is *far* more difficult then most people think. And in my experience most are unwilling to say "I'm not very good at this" and find help. [When most of the "help" will say to put her back on a table and apply more pressure]

3. Thousands of dogs are FF just like this and are "successful", which fosters more of the same.

4. Current breeding practices. [major factor imo]

5. 20 years of FFing after a pro wet nursed me through my initial FF, I'm still trying to improve my methods every day..........

IMO people really need to let go of the sled, step back and really reevaluate how dogs are FF.


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## Lee Watt (Sep 16, 2011)

To all the pros Thanks This has been my biggest concern of what to do when training my dog. I have never heard of FF prior to getting a chesie. 

The evaluations have been frank and truthful. Making me think i should do the same thing when i FF my dog (post videos that is). 

Can this forum be made a sticky so that I can review it over and over again when i get to FF my pup in a couple of months. 

Once again thanks

On other thing 

Alec you stated
*IMO people really need to let go of the sled, step back and really reevaluate how dogs are FF*

what do you mean by this. 

Thanks 

lee


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

yahaelk said:


> Alec you stated
> *IMO people really need to let go of the sled, step back and really reevaluate how dogs are FF*
> 
> what do you mean by this.
> ...


I believe the common current accepted method of FFing a dog [that leads people to control the dogs resistance, many times by mechanical means] of "pain till you open" is flawed. It's so widely accepted that most people don't even question it.

How the hell can we accept causing any pain _without_ consistently questioning it? That's morally indefensible [not questioning it] in my opinion.

I'm not saying a way exists that totally eliminates pain/discomfort/pressure but people just shouldn't accept it "because that's the way it's done".

Yeah it works, but just because something 'works' isn't proper justification for doing so.

I don't care if you've FF 1000 dogs or none, people need to be more engage in this conversation. I don't have all the answers but that doesn't mean I'm not and *we* shouldn't be, looking for them.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

*AND *

*If anybody has any doubts, I agree with what Alec just posted!!!!*


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ah force without force, how much force is acceptable, what is the appropriate level of praise, when to praise, when to force, what are the moral aspects of fairness in application, who shot JR. 

I need 2 hours to watch the video and then i'll have the answers...

/Paul


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

> Yeah it works, but just because something 'works' isn't proper justification for doing so.


With my latest puppy,I bought and am being guided in her training by Bill Hillman's puppy video, soon to be followed by his FF video......

With that said I cannot help but wonder how many dogs placed in a FT this weekend that were FORCED by anything but the conventional method ? 

john


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

john fallon said:


> With my latest puppy,I bought and am being guided in her training by Bill Hillman's puppy video, soon to be followed by his FF video......
> 
> With that said I cannot help but wonder how many dogs placed in a FT this weekend that were FORCED by anything but the conventional method ?
> 
> john


John it is a testament to how awesome these animals are that they can perform such complicated work when being trained in an imperfect system by imperfect people. On top of that they do it with a great attitude most of the time. 

They got humans beat....

/Paul


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> John it is a testament to how awesome these animals are that they can perform such complicated work when being trained in an imperfect system by imperfect people. On top of that they do it with a great attitude most of the time.
> 
> They got humans beat....
> 
> /Paul


 
Let me repeat myself from earlier today:
*AND *

*If anybody has any doubts, I agree with what Paul just posted!!!!*

I have always said these wonderful dogs assume the guilt. Maybe that's how they survive what we do to them. I just have too much respect for them to torture them.


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## rufsea (Jan 4, 2003)

I just finished watching the Bill Hillman video "Fetch" and I am drinking the koolaid and am 100% committed to training my pup (which I won't get until Feb / March) with his method. The Golden in the video has such a great additude throughout the process. How many can say they have smiled or chuckled watching someone FF a dog? I did a few times watching it! In this video the dog is actually having fun alot of the time!

Like Alec and Dennis have said, there probably is a better way and I think this might be it.

John F, are you a believer yet?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Dennis, Alec, Paul.....I agree with you all. It is a fact that as beginners have gotten into the game, the only guides they had are the traditional methods of FF. I went through a terrible ordeal myself with my first dog accepting that it was necessary. (Ask Chris A!) But now that it has been done, and my dogs have done well with that method, I find that true maturity in training is to listen to new ideas and see how they might work. If I ever have another, I will most likely take an entirely different road. And it is thanks to you guys and your discussions that a new way is possible and learnable. (?) There are not enough words to thank you for your input. If we stop trying to learn what works best for the dogs, we might as well just quit it.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

john fallon said:


> With that said I cannot help but wonder how many dogs placed in a FT this weekend that were FORCED by anything but the conventional method ?
> 
> john


;-);-)










Clearly someone else agrees....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyADULYs8oc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

rufsea said:


> I just finished watching the Bill Hillman video "Fetch" and I am drinking the koolaid and am 100% committed to training my pup (which I won't get until Feb / March) with his method. The Golden in the video has such a great additude throughout the process. How many can say they have smiled or chuckled watching someone FF a dog? I did a few times watching it! In this video the dog is actually having fun alot of the time!
> 
> Like Alec and Dennis have said, there probably is a better way and I think this might be it.
> 
> _ John F, are you a believer yet?_


Ask me in a few years.........

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> 4. First fetch she is pinched (to the point of a yelp) before she can even respond. Second fetch same and maybe every one I can't tell. With the constant ear hold it might as we'll be everyone with no freebies for several minutes.
> 5. This dog has not been taught to be responsible for her behaviour. She really doesn't have to make much effort becasue she is forced to do everything. I don't see any situation where she can be corrected for lack of effort while she is constantly held and threatened.
> 6. There is nothing in this method for the dog. Nothing to break it up. She needs to be released and to have some variety. These sessions must be torture for her


Kirk
This is probabably the portion that needs radical change. 
Put a leash to a flat collar instead of your hand under the collar. Even though you may not be pinching ,,,just your hand being under the collar puts pressure around the neck. And this is causing Sandy to constantly be under some type of pressure.

Also as I mentioned in a past video,, If your hand is always on the collar she can't learn to be responsible. And she will possibly balk when the hand is not on the collar.

Now the big problem. You are being coached in person. Am I right?
How will you deal with these issues if an on site experienced person is helping you? Will they heed to Dennis's advice.? will they switch what they do to accomodate internet advice. This is the age of new ways of doing things. Will your profession adapt or will they tell you don't worry ,lets just get this done.

After all your on site teacher may be way more influential than an internet Dennis Voight as far as how things change.

Just a thought

Pete


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Coming up with a new and better way is what we're all looking for, and is how we got this far. I remain enough of a skeptic that I will require any new way of training any aspect to produce a full set of benefits, however, before becoming a convert. I'm speaking specifically of the process of FF, and of the benefits derived from the method that has become a tradition. If something is better in this sport, it tends to rise to prominence because this is a result-oriented pursuit.

It's certainly worth noting that oft times these dogs have been sufficiently forgiving of some of the goofy things trainers have done to still come out doing good work. That always reminds me of Carr's pointing out the records of some great dogs and saying, "But what _might_ they have been?"

Here's to progress, 

Evan


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

*Without going to far off the FF reservation many [most...all?] dogs would benefit from an introduction to fetch pressure at less 'threatening' levels where it's easier for the dog to learn the relationship between the object location [in or out] and how that relates to the pressure. I can see no down side to that what so ever.*

That at the very least would greatly reduce many avoidance behaviors associated with the early force process. 



> ...this is a result-oriented pursuit....


And that's a catastrophic failure in my opinion. 

*This should be a process oriented pursuit!* Results matter but process should matter more.

It seems much of the discussion around different then doctrine FF always centers around why something _won't_ work. Figuring out how the potential disadvantages of something can be overcome takes more thought then following the status quo but hell, without forward thinking trainers we'd still be enforcing distance sit with bird shot, towing them into water blinds with a dirt bike and 500' rope and approaching some dogs for training sessions using a metal garbage can lid held as a shield....

I guess it takes a different mindset to look for why something new/different will work rather then why it won't.

Someone posted on RTF _"I pinch ears and have happy dogs and clients."_

I could have said the same thing 15 years ago but if I/we/you can't continue to advance our methods that focus on making training easier to learn/less painful for the dogs, we have no right to be training them.

A lot of people that embrace the status quo are upset/angry/threatened when what they believe in is questioned, feeling as though it's a personal attack. I really hope people can put aside those feeling and see that this is all about trying to do something better for the dogs, not 'them'.

Have a great day 

Alec


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Pete said:


> Now the big problem. You are being coached in person. Am I right?


I have met with a pro that has older dogs for me for some advice but I am at it alone every day. Using this thread to learn by. What a ride so far.

I am trying to adapt what I thought needed to be done, how it needed to be done around the new concepts and critique that I am receiving here. 

Thanks Kirk


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Alec Sparks said:


> If I/we/you can't continue to advance our methods that focus on making training easier to learn/less painful for the dogs, we have no right to be training them.
> 
> A lot of people that embrace the status quo are upset/angry/threatened when what they believe in is questioned, feeling as though it's a personal attack. I really hope people can put aside those feeling and see that this is all about trying to do something better for the dogs, not 'them'.
> 
> ...


Very well said..........


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Evan said:
> 
> 
> > this is a result-oriented pursuit.
> ...


Alec,

I appreciate your intent. But it misses the point in my statement. There are lots of processes for doing any aspect of dog training. Many of them exist across a spectrum that ranges from unfair and/or ineffective, through the scale to being more fair and more effective. The _pursuit_ I'm referring to is that of streamlining and improving the techniques that have become popular and even prominent in retriever training.

I speak constantly about force fetch, itself, being a multi-faceted process, and that it should be done patiently and thoroughly. But that isn't the point of my remarks. My method, as a whole, came into being through several decades of effort to make a great process (the Carr method) a better one (in my opinion) through the introduction of greater simplification and refining the sequential aspects of it overall. The principle aims were to make training retrievers an easier process for newer trainers to understand, and subsequently an easier process for dogs to learn and live with, and to ultimately enjoy.

I always appreciate innovation. But I am also acutely aware that "different" isn't always "better". Time and trial & error reveal the ultimate value of new ideas based on the results they produce. Those results are rarely one dimensional, so it takes some scrutiny to accurately discern their real value.

Have a great day...with hopefully great results.

Evan


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## Lee Watt (Sep 16, 2011)

On the note of painless or less pain training

Have any of you pros attempted to clicker train a dog. 

Thanks for all the great info on this thread. I have learned more in the last week with this thread then I did in two years working with Police dogs.

lee


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

To answer your question fully, "clicker training" only occupies 1/3 of the training process, as I see it. I think it can have a constructive place in the cycle, but does not have sufficient influence to produce sound field performance. The reason I say that is simply because it is only teaching, and that is only the first (however, most important) component.

Teach
Force
Reinforce
In that order, those phases comprise the 'training cycle' as I approach it. Only having completed all phases is a dog truly trained and prepared for non-slip standards of field performance. Perhaps a useful dialogue can come from this.

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

One huge value of this thread is that we are seeing the emergence of some very different philosophies - not just different procedures.
One philosophy is strongly entrenched in the Carr-based program which is a “force-based” system and often described as such by disciples. Evan recently wrote the steps as Teach, Force and Reinforce. When it comes to traditional ear-pinch Force Ffetch, this philosophy is particularly evident. In fact, the command Fetch is often paired with force without teaching first. 

Evan describes this in detail in SmartFetch. The dog does not know the Fetch command first but is taught that in conjunction with force. Therein, lies one of the big problems for many beginners. They have insufficient knowledge in reading dogs and predicting future responses to know how best to apply force, praise and to balance the two.
To digress slightly, I was talking to Mike lardy the other night about this and describing my experiences with other methods (for example, Hillman) and the results shown on RTF videos. I have seen Mike FF and so I wasn’t surprised when he said that he has them happily fetching off the ground in a less than a week. How different is it really?


What everybody is missing is that even if people are following the “same steps” the implementation and the philosophy can be dramatically different. Mike Lardy’s program steps are extremely similar to the classic Carr program steps because he learned many of them from a Carr protégée (but not from Carr). However, he demonstrated as long ago as the mid 80’s that the implementation can be very different. His dogs were not only extremely successful but they ran with great attitudes and there was far less force in his program than conventional. 

I continually hear people equate various popular programs but if you trained in the field with these folks you would often see fundamentally different training decisions. I have watched dozens of Pros and Amateurs who think they are following a particular program but I assure you the level and timing of corrections and praise are radically different. Even though we might agree that Lardy has become a mainstream program along with SmartWorks and to a lesser extent FowlDog, I cannot agree that they are the same programs nor even that adherents are indeed following what they think they are. I re-watched TRT 2 in the last few weeks. Although I am intimately familiar with it, I was struck but the way in which Mike handles success and failure. His reading of the dog and constant adjustment is something to watch but unfortunately not easily achievable by beginners. That is what distinguishes what he does and yet most people don’t even see it. Some of the same must be said for other programs because we daily see problems discussed here on RTF. So implementation is critical but that is not enough!!


So what I emphasized to Mike and now to some of you here, is that methods that are simpler, more forgiving, more fair but just as effective need to be pursued. The Hillman puppy DVD and the Hillman Fetch Command DVD are examples. I have enough experience that I do not have to wait two years or ten to see it proven. I doubt it will become mainstream because most Professionals and established Amateurs will not change if something works. Many think the fairness is adequate and they know how to avoid problems. I have seen a nother method work and done it myself so I need not wait for mainstream thinking to change.


Buried in Hillman is a process which Alec has been preaching. It is teach before you reinforce. In the case of FF this means after you teach hold, you also teach fetch and THEN you reinforce. This is different from the Teach Force Reinforce philosophy. Hillman does, in fact, teach fetch before he reinforces with the e-collar. He doesn’t ear pinch but that isn’t the big lesson here.


In training retrievers, ALL OTHER commands are taught and then reinforced. Why does the traditional ear pinch method insist on force with ear-pinch before being taught? That alone would change the scene. Of course, the other fundamental is to balance your interaction with your dog so that he/she does not feel restrained and pressured all of the time. The dog has to have something in it for them. They need to know what behaviours are required by us. They need to be chastised when no effort is made to comply. They need to be praised when they get it right. They need to be treated with more respect.
End of sermon. Thanks for wading through if you did!!



PS. To answer the clicker question even though I am not a Pro. . clicker training is too painful for me.

Final PS. Executive summary of sermon above might be. 

_To improve traditional FF process, how the teaching and the positive and negative reinforcement is implemented is critical. The simplest modification is to teach fetch and then reinforce. Do not use force to teach the command but rather patience with praise. There will be far less force in the end and results will be as good IMO! _


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> _To improve traditional FF process, how the teaching and the positive and negative reinforcement is implemented is critical. The simplest modification is to teach fetch and then reinforce. Do not use force to teach the command but rather patience with praise. There will be far less force in the end and results will be as good IMO_


I always thought that teaching fetch was a no brainer. Kind of like saying before you run a race,,you better put on some clothes and running shoes.

Doesn't everyone teach in their programs ,, fetch ,,before they force and re enforce it.

That would be like forcing any command before teaching it.

Pete


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

Aussie said:


> Pondering why worry about a poor sit, which MAY be age related?
> 
> Maybe win a battle, but prefer to win a war?
> 
> (Off to see past youtubes by poster).


Not a battle but setting a standard.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Pete said:


> I always thought that teaching fetch was a no brainer. Kind of like saying before you run a race,,you better put on some clothes and running shoes.
> 
> Doesn't everyone teach in their programs ,, fetch ,,before they force and re enforce it.
> 
> ...


 
Pete
While it may be a no-brainer to you, it is NOT the way thousands of dogs are FF'd. Allow me to quote from Smartfetch which advocates a method similar to many.

_"Fetch is a force-taught command"_

_"This is not a command he already knows so he doesn't know how to turn the pressure off at first"_

_"When you force fetch your dog he doesn't know how to turn off the pressure becasue he doesn't know what you want yet" The teaching and the forcing all happen together"_

This isn't at all unique to SmartFetch. If you watched the videos that are the subject of this thread, you'll see the ear-pinch is started befroe the fetch is known.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> One huge value of this thread is that we are seeing the emergence of some very different philosophies - not just different procedures.
> One philosophy is strongly entrenched in the Carr-based program which is a “force-based” system and often described as such by disciples. Evan recently wrote the steps as Teach, Force and Reinforce. When it comes to traditional ear-pinch Force Ffetch, this philosophy is particularly evident. In fact, the command Fetch is often paired with force without teaching first.
> 
> Evan describes this in detail in SmartFetch. The dog does not know the Fetch command first but is taught that in conjunction with force. Therein, lies one of the big problems for many beginners. They have insufficient knowledge in reading dogs and predicting future responses to know how best to apply force, praise and to balance the two.


Just a note of clarification on this contrast. If a trainer were following the Smartwork method they would have begun with the Puppy Program long before approaching the SmartFetch material. In that program is a chapter on the following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtFGWtp-hPs

Having played this "fetch" game with your pup extensively, and at varying distances (including up close), your pup becomes familiarized with the command to fetch, and in association with the act of fetching. Timing is important, of course. But this is the 'teaching' element in action, and it takes place well before any forcing.

FC-AFC Blackwater Bart II finished ear pinch in 3 days on this program. FC-AFC Trumar's Too Hot to Handle ear pinched in a week. Each dog is different. Some take longer than others. But I do not teach trainers to develop dogs by just forcing the fetch command, even though it won't become a real standard until forcing is done.

Evan


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

You have included 14 images in your message. You are limited to using 6 images so please go back and correct the problem and then continue again. 

Images include use of smilies, the vB code tag and HTML <img> tags. The use of these is all subject to them being enabled by the administrator.



/paul


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2011)

Evan said:


> FC-AFC Blackwater Bart II finished ear pinch in 3 days on this program. FC-AFC Trumar's Too Hot to Handle ear pinched in a week.


Why in heaven's name would you post something like this? You are supposed to be representing your program fairly to folks with little to no experience. To give examples like this and give them the impression they can do this with their dogs is preposterous.

You do understand that people will compare their progress to a couple of dogs you happened to have under your care, right? And you do realize that if their dogs don't "finish ear pinch" in the times you described that they will feel inclined to use more force to get it done, right? 

Bad form. Nuff said.


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

I think that Evan was useing a couple of examples of dogs that have done well following "His" program. Dennis also stated that Mike Lardy has done well with his program of FF with dogs as well. (some learning in days to a few weeks)
I believe that every dog is different in the learning process. And reading the dog is crucial. NOT everyone possess *THAT* talent.Timing is also extremely important.
Sue


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Why in heaven's name would you post something like this?


Because it's true, and because I was responding to a post that represented a sharp contrast between my approach and the approach of one popular trainer who "...said that he has them happily fetching off the ground in a less than a week. How different is it really?" As part of setting the record straight, I have only offered that two noteworthy examples of dogs taken through my program also made such progress in a similar amount of time.


Melanie Foster said:


> You are supposed to be representing your program fairly to folks with little to no experience. To give examples like this and give them the impression they can do this with their dogs is preposterous.


Thanks for the police work. But I'll happily be accountable for whom I address, and how I choose to do it. I don't think telling a simple truth is preposterous. If you do really feel that way, does that also then apply to Mr. Lardy? I don't think either example will have the effect you've asserted.


Melanie Foster said:


> You do understand that people will compare their progress to a couple of dogs you happened to have under your care, right? And you do realize that if their dogs don't "finish ear pinch" in the times you described that they will feel inclined to use more force to get it done, right?
> 
> Bad form. Nuff said.


No. Not if they're paying attention. There is nothing in my coursework that would imply anything of the kind.


Sue Kiefer said:


> I think that Evan was useing a couple of examples of dogs that have done well following "His" program. Dennis also stated that Mike Lardy has done well with his program of FF with dogs as well. (some learning in days to a few weeks)
> I believe that every dog is different in the learning process. And reading the dog is crucial. NOT everyone possess *THAT* talent.Timing is also extremely important.
> Sue


Exactly. Thanks Sue.

Evan


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Evan said:


> Because it's true, and because I was responding to a post that represented a sharp contrast between my approach and the approach of one popular trainer who "...said that he has them happily fetching off the ground in a less than a week. How different is it really?"
> Evan


 
Evan

Please go back and re-read my post. I did not sharply contrast your FF method and that of Lardy. I contrasted his with Hillman as an example. I didn't even suggest that his method was different than yours. What I did suggest is that the implementation of his program may be different than many Carr disciples and that implementation in any program is as important as the actual method. 

Mike was asking me how different his results would be from Hillmans not yours. Hillman states in his Fetch DVD that anybody should be able to teach Fetch his way. I am inclined to agree but time will tell how universally everybody can. We know that many people cannot FF the way that you or Lardy do it with the same level of success.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Melanie Foster said:


> Why in heaven's name would you post something like this? You are supposed to be representing your program fairly to folks with little to no experience. To give examples like this and give them the impression they can do this with their dogs is preposterous.
> 
> You do understand that people will compare their progress to a couple of dogs you happened to have under your care, right? And you do realize that if their dogs don't "finish ear pinch" in the times you described that they will feel inclined to use more force to get it done, right?
> 
> Bad form. Nuff said.


I don't see a thing wrong with Evan's post. I have had one go thru pinch in 3 days and have had them go thru in 3 or 4 weeks. It's not the trainer or the method,it's the difference in dogs. You have to adapt to the dog your training and I think most people,even new trainers understand that. I had one dog that on day 2 I had to hide the bumper behind my back just to be able to get a pinch on her.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> One huge value of this thread is that we are seeing the emergence of some very different philosophies - not just different procedures.
> *One philosophy is strongly entrenched in the Carr-based program which is a “force-based” system and often described as such by disciples. Evan recently wrote the steps as Teach, Force and Reinforce. When it comes to traditional ear-pinch Force Ffetch, this philosophy is particularly evident. In fact, the command Fetch is often paired with force without teaching first. *
> 
> Evan describes this in detail in SmartFetch. The dog does not know the Fetch command first but is taught that in conjunction with force. Therein, lies one of the big problems for many beginners. They have insufficient knowledge in reading dogs and predicting future responses to know how best to apply force, praise and to balance the two.


I'm sorry Dennis. The above was where I got the idea I spoke of. I do see from the remainder of the post the contrasts you've mentioned. I mostly wanted to make a point that I _do_ teach the command "fetch" passively prior to forcing it. Otherwise, point taken. Time will tell.

Thanks,

Evan


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

I think I will throw you all a curve ball. I used Hillman's puppy video and the fetch video and also introduced some traditional ear pinch. What I am finding is that with the proper low levels of stimulation and timing I get faster and better success with the collar than my hand pinching his ear. He doesn't relate my hand with pressure (he started to fight me on it) but he knows how to turn that collar off. He also knows what Hold means and also Fetch. My explanation is probably not clear enough but I have seen how the proper timing, level of stimulation and use of the collar gets the job done. I also have not seen a diminished level in his enthusiasm to retrieve.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Mike Smith said:


> I think I will throw you all a curve ball. I used Hillman's puppy video and the fetch video and also introduced some traditional ear pinch. What I am finding is that with the proper low levels of stimulation and timing I get faster and better success with the collar than my hand pinching his ear. He doesn't relate my hand with pressure (he started to fight me on it) but he knows how to turn that collar off. He also knows what Hold means and also Fetch. My explanation is probably not clear enough but I have seen how the proper timing, level of stimulation and use of the collar gets the job done. I also have not seen a diminished level in his enthusiasm to retrieve.


You ain't alone.....


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Mike Smith said:


> I think I will throw you all a curve ball. I used Hillman's puppy video and the fetch video and also introduced some traditional ear pinch. What I am finding is that with the proper low levels of stimulation and timing I get faster and better success with the collar than my hand pinching his ear. He doesn't relate my hand with pressure (he started to fight me on it) but he knows how to turn that collar off. He also knows what Hold means and also Fetch. My explanation is probably not clear enough but I have seen how the proper timing, level of stimulation and use of the collar gets the job done. I also have not seen a diminished level in his enthusiasm to retrieve.


 
Mike

No curve ball for me since I have seen similar responses. Nonetheless, there is some merit in doing enough ear pinch in this approach to be an aid. Have you noticed a dog always has his ear on but not always his e-collar?


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Alright I was able to get the session on video today.

I have really changed up the sessions the past 4-5 days based on a conversation that I had with one of the folks on the RTF. As well have really tried to take in all that is being said and apply what I can. 

I am sure that this video will not be what some of you approve of as there is alot more freedom given to Sandy but I am trying to get her more excited about the process. You can see several times during the video where she really comes to life. That is what I am looking for all the time. I am sure that I need to continue to improve my skills as it relates to timing and praise.

Let us know what you think


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Mike
> 
> No curve ball for me since I have seen similar responses. Nonetheless, there is some merit in doing enough ear pinch in this approach to be an aid. Have you noticed a dog always has his ear on but not always his e-collar?


Agreed, I still will use the ear pinch in certain situations but the timing and the situation needs to dictate a pinch. I try to do it quickly and get the response I want and move on.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

Kirkd said:


> Alright I was able to get the session on video today.
> 
> I have really changed up the sessions the past 4-5 days based on a conversation that I had with one of the folks on the RTF. As well have really tried to take in all that is being said and apply what I can.
> 
> ...


Kirk

This is probably the most comfortable we have seen Sandy. There is even some tail wagging going on. However, she is still in her shell and your praise, excitement level and procedure is still problematic.

We talked last night about some things to do that I still do not think you are doing. I emphasized improving her attitude. She has had a ton of fetching and knows what that is. You need to make her want to work confidently while being reliable.

The ONLY time I saw her with "go" was that very last happy bumper. And then you quit!!!!! I emphasized that you should get her excited and in "prey" mode and happy BEFORE you start not after. That walking around saying "come-on" is not exciting. Nor is praising her to get her going. My advice again is to not praise her unless she is in excited mode and complies with a command. Then, a good sincere "good" is in order. 

You need to interject more breaker birds and I don't mean that slow hey hey follow the bumper around in circles routine that you do. Breaker birds are thrown at least 5-10 yards. The whole scene needs have some wilder parts to get her attitude up first. When you get her "up", then you balance it with the control work. When she recedes into her shell, you bring her back up. Attiude is everything for her future.

When you do get her snappy don't ruin it by immediately saying sit. I wouldn't do nearly so many "fetches". I didn't count them but there are way too many back to back. I'd do about 25% as many and do other things that are useful in between. Things like some simple obedience, perhaps some 3-handed casting, sit and walk away and call here too you. Throw a bumper down, walk around, then ask for fetch.

All of these things are not the conventional way that one FF trains a pup with a good attitude but you need to get her out of her shell. 

1. Excitement, then an action command. 
2. Praise for compliance with one sincere "good".
3. Do not praise to make her happy. Do not praise when she is moody.
4. Correct for refusals and lack of effort. 
5. Not so much drilling
6. Let's see you as excited as you want her to be!!

Others may not advocate my emphasis on attitude and they may not see anything wrong with her behaviour. 

You decide how you want to handle it. Good luck.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

I find guys in general have a very hard time getting playfully enthusiastic with their dog when they need to. Just a short while ago I had a person arrive with a retriever he'd been training with 'shaping' for quite some time. 

He'd done a nice job but the dog would have nothing to do with birds despite his best efforts. We talked about FF but I wasn't sure it was the correct path for them at this point. 

I took a dead bird and just tried to get her playful with it by teasing her and talking/acting in as a kid might play with a pup. A quick/short toss and she bounced out and happily picked it up and returned with it.

She became enthusiastic enough that we ended up throw water marks for her in a few minutes.

Moral of story: It's really helpful if you let go of the "this dog training is serious business and I don't want to look like a fool acting like a kid" mode.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> I find guys in general have a very hard time getting playfully enthusiastic with their dog when they need to. Just a short while ago I had a person arrive with a retriever he'd been training with 'shaping' for quite some time.
> 
> He'd done a nice job but the dog would have nothing to do with birds despite his best efforts. We talked about FF but I wasn't sure it was the correct path for them at this point.
> 
> ...




Oh ya. My male clients are the worst. Lighten up people, have some fun....

/Paul


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Oh ya. My male clients are the worst. Lighten up people, have some fun....
> 
> /Paul


The sillier you act, the more the dogs like it. Talk in a high voice, act excited, and bounce around. It will get a dull/bored dog going.


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## Lee Watt (Sep 16, 2011)

There was a saying given to me by a dog handler with over 20 experience training police dogs. 

If everyone watching does not think you looked like a complete clown and are laughing there buts off at you, you weren't acting excited enough. 

by far my favorite line i every recieved while training dogs. 

lee


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> Kirk
> 
> This is probably the most comfortable we have seen Sandy. There is even some tail wagging going on. However, she is still in her shell and your praise, excitement level and procedure is still problematic.
> 
> ...


Thanks I will take another stab at it..


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

Kirkd said:


> Thanks I will take another stab at it..


I want to commend you for your determination to do the best for your dog. 

I'm sure, if you continue to search for the methods that will make it easier for her to learn, that you (and she) will succeed.

Every dog should be so fortunate as Sandy.............


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## xtrainer (May 6, 2011)

This thread has been very helpful to me as I am presently working through force fetch with my 7 month old as a first timer. The latest posts in particular...about lightening up, building excitement, and carefully timing praise helped me to make a break through tonight. Kind of the missing link. Thanks to all the experienced trainers who have weighed in.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Mike Smith said:


> Not a battle but setting a standard.


The comment was related to the first video. 

During FF (negative reinforcement-escape/avoidance training - and dare I add depending on the trainer punishment possibly tooooooooooooo much of the later), the dog learns best if:

(1) He is not mentally stressed. (We talk of knowing our dogs after all this is not the first time aversives have been applied). A poor sit can be a sign?? Importance depends on dog. 

(2) The stimulation is predictable

(3) The stimulation is controllable

(4) The stimulation is escapable. 

The dog should have relief mentally on ceasing the stimulation. The praise is driving me mad, and I am - first, do not harm kind of trainer.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

xtrainer said:


> This thread has been very helpful to me as I am presently working through force fetch with my 7 month old as a first timer. The latest posts in particular...about lightening up, building excitement, and carefully timing praise helped me to make a break through tonight. Kind of the missing link. Thanks to all the experienced trainers who have weighed in.


x2! I think this should be a sticky. I have learned a ton and will really look at how I go through FF (which will be soon). Makes me want to check out the Hillmann DVD. 

I have another little comment/question.

Dennis wrote "This is different from the Teach Force Reinforce philosophy.... In training retrievers, ALL OTHER commands are taught and then reinforced. Why does the traditional ear pinch method insist on force with ear-pinch before being taught?" 

I am wondering the same thing. With CC for example, don't most trainers make sure the OB ground work is there before starting to force/reinforce with the collar? And I feel like a lot of people are against the "sit-means-sit" method because it uses the force of the e-collar to teach versus just as a forcer after the teaching. 

How would you teach fetch, besides just playing fetch with the dog? I haven't FFed my year old golden yet but will be in a month or so. So for now, I have been using a bumper, getting him excited. Then stop moving the bumper and "fetch." He seems to get the idea, at least when the bumper is right in front of his nose. Would you then progress in a manner similar to FF, without the force? Building up distance and then angling downward? I'm interested to see how my pup responds to FF, in contrast to the previous dog that I trained.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> The sillier you act, the more the dogs like it. Talk in a high voice, act excited, and bounce around. It will get a dull/bored dog going.


:razz::razz::razz:

If YOU ONLY KNEW!!!!!!!!!

You WILL however spend the rest of the dogs life gettin em to take Ya seriously:razz:


Gooser


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

mlopez said:


> x2! I think this should be a sticky. I have learned a ton and will really look at how I go through FF (which will be soon). Makes me want to check out the Hillmann DVD.
> 
> I have another little comment/question.
> 
> Dennis wrote "This is different from the Teach Force Reinforce philosophy.... In training retrievers, ALL OTHER commands are taught and then reinforced. Why does the traditional ear pinch method insist on force with ear-pinch before being taught?"


From me 3 years ago.....

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30705&highlight=Teaching+with+pressure



> I am wondering the same thing. With CC for example, don't most trainers make sure the OB ground work is there before starting to force/reinforce with the collar? And I feel like a lot of people are against the "sit-means-sit" method because it uses the force of the e-collar to teach versus just as a forcer after the teaching.
> 
> How would you teach fetch, besides just playing fetch with the dog? I haven't FFed my year old golden yet but will be in a month or so. So for now, I have been using a bumper, getting him excited. Then stop moving the bumper and "fetch." He seems to get the idea, at least when the bumper is right in front of his nose. Would you then progress in a manner similar to FF, without the force? Building up distance and then angling downward? I'm interested to see how my pup responds to FF, in contrast to the previous dog that I trained.


And there's the rub, not all dogs are interested in play/learning fetch so an intro to fetch pressure at a _non threatening_ level works really well.

The other issue that can crop up is some dogs want to fetch so damm much that later, if you don't have a super read on the dog, they may fetch in spite of the pressure you apply, not because of it. 



In case anyone hasn't noticed, these 19 pages/189 posts are why some people are so concerned with the nature that many people approach FF with and the method they follow. Even with a ton of input, you can see it still can be very difficult to FF in a really optimal manner. Not to mention that some dogs challenge the most experienced trainers.

The days of "grind em up FF" [that some feel is necessary] are hopefully in their golden years as people learn about more progressive methods. It's not a revolution but will hopefully be an evolution.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Sabriely said quote:

The sillier you act, the more the dogs like it. Talk in a high voice, act excited, and bounce around. It will get a dull/bored dog going.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gRBh0sGuCA&feature=youtu.be





HEHEHEHE!!!!


Gooser


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Alec Sparks said:


> From me 3 years ago.....
> 
> http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30705&highlight=Teaching+with+pressure
> 
> ...




Can I get a big AMEN here????? This is so freaking true of my big dog.


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Alec Sparks said:


> The other issue that can crop up is some dogs want to fetch so damm much that later, if you don't have a super read on the dog, they may fetch in spite of the pressure you apply, not because of it.


You lost me here. Is this a bad thing? How? 

My pup MUST fetch, bumper on the ground she can't stand it she's gotta pick it up...

What am I missing? I'm training pup for first time (I used Hillman puppy program and fetch method).

Thanks!

renee


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

mitty said:


> You lost me here. Is this a bad thing? How?
> 
> My pup MUST fetch, bumper on the ground she can't stand it she's gotta pick it up...
> 
> ...


Because down the road, the day she decides not to fetch [or you go to FTP or water force] when you say GO she may say NO _"I've been going/fetching because I want to not because you want me to"._


You'd like em to have the 'want to' and 'got to'.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Renee, I am sure that Alec can answer this better than me, but..... My dog is so insane to "fetch" that I have a real problem using any type of pressure for other training. He is impossible to "read" because he is physically incapable of responding to me when in prey drive. After having two more dogs, I honestly believe that Indy should NOT have been forced in the traditional way. Some dogs are just that way. (Thanks Charlotte!)


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Darn, still missing some important point...I'm through basics, doing transition (using Lardy)...as I've progressed pup has been more and more obsessed with doing job at hand.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

mitty said:


> Darn, still missing some important point...I'm through basics, doing transition (using Lardy)...as I've progressed pup has been more and more obsessed with doing job at hand.


Did you ever have a refusal to fetch or go that you enforced and got the proper response [fetched or went]?

[Sorry but that's it from me tonight.........11:00 here in VT.]


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mitty said:


> You lost me here. Is this a bad thing? How?
> 
> My pup MUST fetch, bumper on the ground she can't stand it she's gotta pick it up...
> 
> ...


Because when a given dog does this they're often circumventing pressure conditioning (the real central benefit of FF), and merely beating the stimulus, rather than effectively dealing with it. It's not done until they'll fetch through restraint, IMO.

Evan


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Evan, can I hear your definition of restraint please?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Both my dogs have been the type that loved to retrieve and hold things in their mouth.

Since they really liked bumpers,,It was advised to me to use a different object (objects) during FF. Iused a dowled 'BUCK"

I have also been told that a difficult dog in FF is better than a co- operative one, because the issue of FORCE and PRESSURE eventually becomes more clearly understood, and is a part of the training, because you are making the dog do something it really doesnt want to do.

Where is the FORCE and PRESSURE if you have a dog that HAPPILY wants to place the object in their mouth? There IS no force.

Gooser


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Alec Sparks said:


> Because down the road, the day she decides not to fetch [or you go to FTP or water force] when you say GO she may say NO _"I've been going/fetching because I want to not because you want me to"._
> 
> 
> You'd like em to have the 'want to' and 'got to'.




Alec, When my pup was a baby she retrieved and held bumper till I took it out of her mouth. At around age five months all the sudden she started spitting bumpers out at my feet, so then I taught her "hold." Had she never started dropping them I would not have had a natural opportunity to teach "hold." Is this what you mean? 



Alec Sparks said:


> Did you ever have a refusal to fetch or go that you enforced and got the proper response [fetched or went]?
> 
> [Sorry but that's it from me tonight.........11:00 here in VT.]


I am not getting refusals! So when the time comes, she really doesn't want to fetch, I am unsure if she will comply with force. I think so but it has not been practiced a lot. Am I getting it?



Evan said:


> Because when a given dog does this they're often circumventing pressure conditioning (the real central benefit of FF), and merely beating the stimulus, rather than effectively dealing with it. It's not done until they'll fetch through restraint, IMO.
> 
> Evan


When you say "merely beating the stimulus" do you mean dog fetches before there is time to apply stimulus, or that dog is being snappy in order to avoid stimulus? I thought the latter was a goal.

Thanks everyone!

Renee


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mitty said:


> I am not getting refusals! So when the time comes, she really doesn't want to fetch, I am unsure if she will comply with force. I think so but it has not been practiced a lot. Am I getting it?


It would be more correct to say "I'm not getting refusals *yet*." 

I think you're beginning to get it. Practicing a lot will surely help. Adding pressure conditioning will further ensure compliance when that time comes.


mitty said:


> When you say "merely beating the stimulus" do you mean dog fetches before there is time to apply stimulus, or that dog is being snappy in order to avoid stimulus? I thought the latter was a goal.
> 
> Thanks everyone!
> 
> Renee


Renee, the latter is what we seek. But we don't seek that resonse as a result of the former. In other words, we _do_ seek a stlylish response to command, but _also_ a reliable one. Bright dogs learn to play a "beat-the-drill" game (or avoid the stimulus) by trying very hard to comply with the command as a way of _avoiding_ the stimulus. Close, but no panatela.

To obtain real conditioning to pressure the dog must learn to _relieve_ existing pressure in a stable manner through compliance. He will then have learned to effectively deal with pressure, and will have become more reliable in the presence of it. That will help him not to destabilize when distracted or pressured, _and_ it will provide you, the trainer, with an effective tool to deal with refusals.

Evan


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> I have also been told that a difficult dog in FF is better than a co- operative one, because the issue of FORCE and PRESSURE eventually becomes more clearly understood, and is a part of the training, because you are making the dog do something it really doesnt want to do.
> 
> Where is the FORCE and PRESSURE if you have a dog that HAPPILY wants to place the object in their mouth? There IS no force.
> 
> Gooser




......Well there ya go.

_The ability to read a dog and know what you have [in relationship to trained behavior] is a skill not obtained FFing and handful of dog and for some people clearly difficult no matter how many they train.
_

Of course if a dog doesn't want to hold/fetch it's easier to know why they're now doing so [force]. But those dogs can be more difficult in many other aspects of training. The "want to" dog fools a lot of people into thinking it's FF when it's not really forced to the standard they think. 

I believe most people are better off with a 'want to' dog then a 'make me' dog though.


I started a thread years ago giving two examples of FF dogs. 

1. Finished/titled dog that will only 'fetch' for its trainer. [is it FFed?]

2. Pro trained dog that will only 'fetch' for the pro. [is it FF?]

I maintain many FF dogs aren't in the sense that they have more fetch 'want to' then 'got to'. And that's FINE by me as long as the owner is pleased with the dogs performance.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Mitty, when you get to fetch, I believe their many ways to make sure your dog is forced without resorting to holding a dog back, applying pressure and watching the dog fight/scramble to fetch.

* Distractions, distractions distractions.*

People

Places

Other dogs

A crate of birds

An unusual bumper [I find a lot of dogs don't like the gun powder smell of a Bumper Boy dummy if they aren't use to them], odd object day [I don't go crazy with bottles/wrenches/etc. but have about 7 different dummies I use]

Place bumpers in areas that make it a bit [or more] difficult for the dog to pick up, laying against my truck tire, a bit under the trailer, long[er] grass, in a puddle, etc.

Any place/thing that distracts the dog you can think of [within reason].

These are all places/situations where the dog will need to show an *effort* to fetch. When I get those I move on to the three handed cast and rarely do walking fetch any more.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Evan said:


> Because when a given dog does this they're often circumventing pressure conditioning (the real central benefit of FF), and merely beating the stimulus, rather than effectively dealing with it. It's not done until they'll fetch through restraint, IMO.


Do you mean that I have to hold my dog back, apply pressure, and not allow him to turn it off as he has been taught? That doesn't seem very fair to me. I guess I'm not 100% understanding the idea of "pressure conditioning." I don't mind my dog beating the stimulus and I don't think I need to hold him back to prevent him from beating it, just to teach it to him. I can set him up for situations where he may not respond as I want and then I can correct. I want my dog to correctly respond to pressure, but I feel like this can be demonstrated in a lot of ways.


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## sixpacklabs (Jan 21, 2009)

Count me as another amateur trainer who doesn't understand what Evan is saying about pressure. I too thought the whole point of avoidance conditioning was for the animal to reliably and promptly produce the behavior in response to the stimulus (cue, command) by learning to beat the aversive. 



Alec Sparks said:


> Mitty, when you get to fetch, I believe their many ways to make sure your dog is forced without resorting to holding a dog back, applying pressure and watching the dog fight/scramble to fetch.
> 
> * Distractions, distractions distractions.*


What Alec is saying, I TOTALLY get.

I sometimes wonder whether some of the problems that pressure is supposed to prevent/correct were in fact created by inappropriate use of pressure in the first place. This comment is not directed at Evan, but is rather the musing of an amateur trainer about traditional approaches to FF in general, particularly about how they might be misapplied in the hands of amateurs like me who only get to train a few dogs in their lifetime. I'm following Bill Hillman's puppy program with my new dog, and will be using his approach to FF. I feel much more confident about being successful using his approach. I also feel I'd be much less likely to create negative fallout for the dog that might manifest as other problems down the line.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

sixpacklabs said:


> Count me as another amateur trainer who doesn't understand what Evan is saying about pressure. I too thought the whole point of avoidance conditioning was for the animal to reliably and promptly produce the behavior in response to the stimulus (cue, command) by learning to beat the aversive.


They still need to respond correctly _through_ pressure application, not just avoid [beat] it.





> What Alec is saying, I TOTALLY get.
> 
> I sometimes wonder whether some of the problems that pressure is supposed to prevent/correct were in fact created by inappropriate use of pressure in the first place.


Oh if you only knew.........



> This comment is not directed at Evan, but is rather the musing of an amateur trainer about traditional approaches to FF in general, particularly about how they might be misapplied in the hands of amateurs like me who only get to train a few dogs in their lifetime. I'm following Bill Hillman's puppy program with my new dog, and will be using his approach to FF. I feel much more confident about being successful using his approach. I also feel I'd be much less likely to create negative fallout for the dog that might manifest as other problems down the line.


In any reasonable program, your correct, it's application that matters. You _can_ FF a dog on a table hooked up in a very progressive manner but most in that situation aren't imo. It's all old school pressure.

I've long said that if you train with treats and praise all you risk is a fat dog or failure. Training with pressure, you owe it to your dog to make damm sure it's done optimally. I know just how difficult that can be that's why I'm fairly mortified that so many people FF their dogs with so little critical thought to the process.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

So we are weeks into working with this dog and we've talked a lot about reading the dog. Whats the read on this dogs abilities for high level HT and FT's...?


/Paul


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mlopez said:


> Do you mean that I have to hold my dog back, apply pressure, and not allow him to turn it off as he has been taught? That doesn't seem very fair to me.


I’m glad you asked then. Many people don’t get this, and that’s why I so often say that force fetch – even beyond Swim-by – is the most misunderstood aspect of retriever training. The questions about it go on and on, and I’m glad they do. I’d far rather keep answering good questions like this, than have trainers continue to experiment on their dogs.

*Restraint* is not *denial*. That is often the way it’s misinterpreted. The technique I’m referring to is a friction-like restraint. As it is applied, the dog is commanded to fetch as pressure is applied. But, as the dog attempts to fetch, restraint is applied that allows the dog to progress toward the fetch object that the dog must work through – ultimately being allowed to fetch freely. At no time is the dog denied the object. His progress toward it is only resisted by a small degree.

In the video clip attached watch at 1:51 as restraint is applied that he’s not being denied the object, restraint is applied, and the dog works through it. This is only an example, not a full session with restraint. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mxo6wdHl2w


mlopez said:


> I guess I'm not 100% understanding the idea of "pressure conditioning." I don't mind my dog beating the stimulus and I don't think I need to hold him back to prevent him from beating it, just to teach it to him. I can set him up for situations where he may not respond as I want and then I can correct. I want my dog to correctly respond to pressure, but I feel like this can be demonstrated in a lot of ways.


If you let yourself become satisfied with your dog beating the stimulus, and think you’re getting him force fetched, then get ready to be satisfied with his refusing at some point, and you not having a tool you can rely on to compel him to fetch. You’re stunting his force work if you can’t get past a refusal by employing pressure. He’s only learned to avoid pressure, not to effectively deal with it through compliance.


sixpacklabs said:


> Count me as another amateur trainer who doesn't understand what Evan is saying about pressure. I too thought the whole point of avoidance conditioning was for the animal to reliably and promptly produce the behavior in response to the stimulus (cue, command) by learning to beat the aversive.


I believe FF has often been miss-characterized as “avoidance conditioning”. It is pressure conditioning. A dog that only avoids pressure is not apt to be stable and/or reliable when under pressure. The reliable behavior you seek is not likely to be produced through teaching the dog to avoid pressure, but rather to deal with pressure through compliance. Do you see the difference?


mlopez said:


> I sometimes wonder whether some of the problems that pressure is supposed to prevent/correct were in fact created by inappropriate use of pressure in the first place.


That happens. But that is not what I’m proposing through conditioning to pressure. Condition your dog to deal with pressure, not to hide from it.

Evan


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## Mike Smith (Mar 24, 2005)

Aussie said:


> The comment was related to the first video.
> 
> During FF (negative reinforcement-escape/avoidance training - and dare I add depending on the trainer punishment possibly tooooooooooooo much of the later), the dog learns best if:
> 
> ...


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Mike Smith said:


> Aussie said:
> 
> 
> > The comment was related to the first video.
> ...


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Evan said:


> I’m glad you asked then. Many people don’t get this, and that’s why I so often say that force fetch – even beyond Swim-by – is the most misunderstood aspect of retriever training. The questions about it go on and on, and I’m glad they do. I’d far rather keep answering good questions like this, than have trainers continue to experiment on their dogs.


Thanks for the explanation Evan. I can see where you are coming from. I agree, you need to have the dog refuse in order to be able to correct and make sure the dog knows the right way to respond. I guess holding back is similar to saying "you can't give up just because its a little bit harder."


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

mlopez said:


> I guess holding back is similar to saying "you can't give up just because its a little bit harder."


Yes, very similar. But just so you know, they don't all refuse under restraint, and that isn't your goal. Your goal is success; fetching through resistance. About an equal number just fetch through it, but only when they have already had enough conditioning to have those solid responses intact. Resistance only makes it more thorough.

Evan


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

It seems to me that the primary posters to this thread have backslid to an extent, and are now at the point of, _conventionalism_, with their advice to the more difficult questions;-)

john


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Not me, I still think the best approach to FF [for most people] is the one I posted about here 3 years ago......a non-threatening introduction and also posted about earlier in this thread.

Additionally, I feel the ground [or a super low table [6"-12"] 16' long with the dog not strapped in is best for the dogs. Forward, not overly restrained if one does so and transitioning to a collar quickly are all my long held beliefs.

I also believe their are very successful less conventional approached to FF but they may require a better read on a dog and the read seems to be a common issue with people.

I have not viewed Bill's FF video so I can't comment on it.

As a "primary poster" could you please point out where I have changed my opinions/approach?

I'll let Dennis speak for himself but I don't see a change there either. 

I like Dennis am amazed by the lack of input [either way] from the long time veteran poster/trainers on RTF............

John, you seem invested and perhaps please to point out that people working on ways to make FF better for our dogs are wrong.
I find that..........well.......I guess, not surprising. Sad though really. 

Perhaps if you always find your glass half empty you should buy a smaller glass.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

john fallon said:


> It seems to me that the primary posters to this thread have backslid to an extent, and are now at the point of, _conventionalism_, with their advice to the more difficult questions;-)
> 
> john


I'm not sure what you mean. Who changed what where? I would be interested in your opinion on FF and your answers to the "more difficult questions."


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> It seems to me that the primary posters to this thread have backslid to an extent, and are now at the point of, _conventionalism_, with their advice to the more difficult questions:wink:


John 
I think conventionalism best serves this sight

For instance 
I teach the word fetch using all positive
Then I use subliminal constant or intermitant force which ever is applicable .We don't talk about that here. Why because no one is familiar with it and have no idea how it applies to dog training. So thats neutral neither pos or neg.

Then I use low level stim. probably similar to how Alec and Dennis use it.


Then I a pull an Evan and an Alec somewhere along the way,,to test where I'm at.

I use some resistance ,,and lots of distractions. And distractions build as we go. And also attitude is something I work hard on to maintain. However its not always possible. Some dogs just can't see the fun in it no matter what you do.

When new people are forcing ( a word that I'm growing to hate) a dog ,,,especially over the internet I believe it does no good to be nit picky. Nit pickiness developes over time as the person grows in depth in his understanding and they have developed their motor skills to carry out their knowledge. So I think Kirk is doing pretty good for where he is at in his application learning curve. I think Kirk is improving faster than someone who doesn't seek advice. So Kudo's for Kirk.

When Dennis speaks people listen. He conveys idea's really well. And has a gift of communication,along with others. I speak really well with my hands and eyes But you may have not been refering to me anyway.

Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Not me, I still think the best approach to FF [for most people] is the one I posted about here 3 years ago......a non-threatening introduction and also posted about earlier in this thread.
> 
> Additionally, I feel the ground [or a super low table [6"-12"] 16' long with the dog not strapped in is best for the dogs. Forward, not overly restrained if one does so and transitioning to a collar quickly are all my long held beliefs.
> 
> ...




I'm not invested in proving you or they wrong , I *am* invested in them having to prove them self right. Simply saying so does not make it so
A successfull training method produces. It has already been pointed out here that if there were a more productive method out there it would now be in use.

In spite of that I am on record on this very thread as having subscribed to using Bills method (tempered with my over 50 years of retriever training experience) as a baseline for the training of my most recent pup...
When asked if I fully concur with it, and expect comparable results to my results using the more mainstream methods, I said I would wait and see.

john


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

john fallon said:


> I'm not invested in proving you or they wrong , I *am* invested in them having to prove them self right. Simply saying so does not make it so
> A successfull training method produces. It has already been pointed out here that if there were a more productive method out there it would now be in use.
> 
> In spite of that I am on record on this very thread as having subscribed to using Bills method (tempered with my over 50 years of retriever training experience) as a baseline for the training of my most recent pup...
> ...


Fair enough.

But is a titled dog the only proof? Many titled dogs? A National win? Several National wins? Or does the method have to be embraced by "A-list" FT pros?

I'll tell you something John, for almost 20 years I've been successfully FFing and training dogs that Lardy/Farmer/etc. wouldn't let in their kennels. When was the last time an A-list pro trained a 4 year old house pet with super limited desire, that had never seen a bird, had never had any training and only performed basic OB in a self directed manner and was 'trained' to an underground fence? Welcome to my world.

I'm not saying they couldn't but that the reality of what many people like myself deal with and quite frankly I'm sure many many of the dogs people own/train on RTF are not the cream of the national FT crop.

Unless you've fooled with some amazingly messed up dogs in your 50 years you really have no idea how much harder they can be to work with then those beautifully started and super well bred dogs.

The methods I've promoted, both in this thread and others in the past, have long proven very successful for myself in introducing fetch pressure to _dogs of a wide variety of ages and temperaments _in a manner that enables dog to better understand it. Additionally, it's easy as hell and vastly reduced early FF avoidance behaviors. That eliminates the need for strapping dog to poles, over head lines and other devices.

Sure old school initial force programs "work" and have been long proven but even carved in stone doctrine has changed over the last 15 years.

How many people still do marble fetch? 5 Five or so years ago when I posted here I didn't do stick fetch here the outcry was loud.......you don't know what you're doing......you're not a big name pro.......you have to or your dogs won't be forced. Now stick fetch seem pretty optional.

We look back at bird-shot and cattle prods in disdain. I honestly feel bad for all the dog that will go through today's widely accepted FF programs before people can look back and say "do you believe that's how they use to FF dogs?"

Times and techniques change, they evolve. Unless you're lively hood is on the line and not just your ego and desire for a pretty ribbon, how can anyone not be fully supportive of methods that "may" improve the training experience for our dogs? 

If your lively hood is on the line, I'd ask that you use your experience to better the training that dogs go through that allows you that lively hood.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

john fallon said:


> It seems to me that the primary posters to this thread have backslid to an extent, and are now at the point of, _conventionalism_, with their advice to the more difficult questions;-)
> 
> john


John

My last post was #180 and in I said that what I was advocating for Sandy was not the conventional. So, you either consider me not a primary poster or you were not meaning that I have backslid.

But, I don't see any backsliding. For example Alec and Evan seem to be consistent in their suggestions. Evan has been consistent IMO in advocating a somewhat convential approach and Alec has been (for several years) preaching something different. I do see a couple of new discussions in this thread that might cause difficult questions. One is dealing with the dog that "wants to fetch" and the other is the idea of restraint.

I do everything possible to not restrain a dog. I do not even physically restain puppies from retrieving. They either are invited to break or they are taught to sit and wait. I do not ever restrain them form fetching when told to do so. They are taught to be steady by asssuming the responsibility "off-lead". I don't use ropes to pull or push although I let them drag a cord so that I can casually reel them in when they play tag. I do not restrain them teaching fetch. I don't even hold onto them except loosely during the "hold" teaching. I do however eventually create "resistance" which they have to overcome despite pressure or even confusion. Resistance comes in many forms to a dog. Alec describes distractions which are a form of resistance. Conventional stick fetching is a form of resistance and even walking fetch where sometime you do and sometime you don't are forms of resistance. Heck, even a dog dropping a bumper to shake gives you a chance for a refusal and thus more proofing. This is true whether you use the e-collar or the ear pinch. I do not believe that you have to restrain a dog to get refusals or resistance. So my answer is yes, I invite situations where a dog must learn to deal with pressure despite wanting to refuse.

The super desire "want to fetch" dog is trained with the same principles. Go to my first post on day one (#6 I think) where I say one might want to see Sandy's response with a high dog. The "want to" dog is still trained following the ABC's. *Attitude* is critical--you can't be over the top wild in attitude just like you can't mope around. *Balance* is key. If the dog is super excited, you impose calmness and control. You make the high desire dog wait longer-you develop patience.. You maintain *Control.* You use far more control that I might advocate for a Sandy-thus my emphasis on excitement in post #180.

All of these principles can be the same whether you ear pinch, e-collar, have a high or low desire, soft or hard dog. You need the balance. 

As far as Hillman goes, it *IS* being widely adopted by many already and reports are very good. I don't know what results you want to see to prove it. An NFC? The public hasn't known about it that long. What about Hillman's Derby champs as proof?

I do know what my current two young dogs are doing following this method. Therein lies my proof. One, a Qualifying 1st, 2nd and 3rd in 3 starts at 15-18 months (60% finishing avg this year in Amateur at 2 years) and a 7 month old pup flying through Double-T as we speak with far less training than most pups. Both have bever been restrained or know much(anything?) about ear pinch. Both have learned to handle pressure. Both have presented many opportunities to be reinforced with negative reinforcement just in the normal course of training events. 

FF is only stage one of a dog learning to handle pressure and understand evolving standards. These are re-visited and strengthened in Pilework, Double-T, Swim-By and indeed in field work through-out a dog's life. In the big picture, the important thing is not whether you ear pinch or just use an e-collar to FF. For me, the important thing is to teach and reinforce enough to move on without creating bad habits or causing problems. I know, I will have many opportunities to proof more and to reinforce more and to refine standards. If I do find a hole from earlier, I challenge for one session to get out of it. If not successful, I immediately simplify and go back to the earlier stage. This may mean going back to the yard for problem-solving with a National champion(and I speak from experience).

For the high desire, intelligent dog, this moves them along very quickly and smoothly without drill drill drill and force force force. I have come to believe this is not conventialism. So I guess I am not a primary poster


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Pete said:


> John
> I think conventionalism best serves this sight
> 
> For instance
> ...


We don't talk about it here ? Perhaps we should. 
You start the ball rolling so to speak with a_ thumbnail_ discription of what it is and how _you_ use it in your FF program.......


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> John
> 
> My last post was #180 and in I said that what I was advocating for Sandy was not the conventional. So, you either consider me not a primary poster or you were not meaning that I have backslid.
> 
> ...


You are still employing Pile work,conventional YARD training and Swim By in your program ?

john


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

john fallon said:


> You are still employing Pile work,conventional YARD training and Swim By in your program ?
> 
> john


John, I'm sorry but that's just BS. Now you're doing little more then trying to bait people by coming up with silly ideas trying to get out of the hole you've found yourself in after your post about "conventionalism".

What a waste of time when some people here are genuinely concerned about how dogs are treated.....

Fail

Now go waste more time coming up with some stupid remark to me.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> We don't talk about it here ? Perhaps we should.
> You start the ball rolling so to speak with a_ thumbnail_ discription of what it is and how _you_ use it in your FF program


John
It is teaching with electricity.
Although it was explained time and time again that the dog barely registers it. I also gave examples of it and explained how th dog deals with it in nature as it occurs. It was not received well. It was view as cruel even after the explaination. How anyone can come away with that is beyond me.



So I think i'll save it for my book:razz: 
I gotta get out the door.

Pete


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> John, I'm sorry but that's just BS. Now you're doing little more then trying to bait people by coming up with silly ideas trying to get out of the hole you've found yourself in after your post about "conventionalism".
> 
> What a waste of time when some people here are genuinely concerned about how dogs are treated.....
> 
> ...



You have a propensity for calling BS on people. The thread where you trashed Jim was a prime example......

Back on the point..."conventionalism".
I for one am weening this new pup I am now training off the "formal" YARD for yard type work and am incorporating the various aspects of it in random "field" settings. 
I am still working on the logestics of the Swim BY with the water I have available to me.

john


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Pete said:


> John
> *It is teaching with electricity*.
> Although it was explained time and time again that the dog barely registers it. I also gave examples of it and explained how th dog deals with it in nature as it occurs. It was not received well. It was view as cruel even after the explaination. How anyone can come away with that is beyond me.
> 
> ...


Subliminal would be teaching with a stimuli at below the perceptable level,below the threshold of sensation or consciousness if you will. 

How would you do that with what's available in the marketplace.

john


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

john fallon said:


> You are still employing Pile work,conventional YARD training and Swim By in your program ?
> 
> john


*ABSOLUTELY!!!*

Do you know of a better series of progressive steps that develop Basic skills? 

As I have tried to emphasize here and elsewhere, *implementation is key.* 

In fact, the details of the methods are often far less important than the overall approach and reading the dog.

That is why I mostly say, _"This is what I would do and what I recommend"_ rather than _"don't do this or that or do what I say"_


_PS> In reply to your "field work note", almost all of my fetch work and collar conditioning is done while in the field and mixed in with assorted marks and other work. I think you have seen this sort of approach documented in Hillman's Puppy DVD and so it shouldn't be a new thing for you to develop. Even my Pilework and DTT were done in the "field" although for obvious reasonsI do each of them in a particular location._


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

john fallon said:


> You have a propensity for calling BS on people. The thread *where you trashed Jim* was a prime example......
> 
> Back on the point..."conventionalism".
> I for one am weening this new pup I am now training off the "formal" YARD for yard type work and am incorporating the various aspects of it in random "field" settings.
> ...


Oh for God sakes!


And you seem to be unable to understand I disliked the *METHOD* show in that video John, *the method*. I have no with problem with nor have I ever trashed Jim D. I disliked what I saw, said so and the next thing I knew your were calling me out on my relationship with Tri tronics and why I didn't post videos on You Tube.........talk about attacking the messenger and not heeding the message. I see it still continues. 

The fact you thought what was show was fine shows clearly we have different point of view when it come to how dogs are trained.

I'm happily open to criticism but not when as inaccurate as that characterization is.


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

john fallon said:


> You are still employing Pile work,conventional YARD training and Swim By in your program ?
> john


John

In my post, I tried to offer some useful information on the importance of ABC and my thoughts on combining pressure and restraint as well as dealing with the "want to fetch" dog. I even commented on the value of the Hillman approach.

I am wondering why in the world your response would be what it was above?

In 6 years, I am one post away from making a total of 400 posts. Sometimes I truly wonder why I post here. I think it is mostly because of my concern for the dogs welfare.

I see you will soon have 4000 posts. I am wondering why do you post?

Sorry folks for getting off topic!!


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## ppro (Jan 14, 2008)

Hey I confess I have glanced at this thread piece-meal but I notice that the pup is worked off-lead almost from the beginning. This is a little different from what I do. I like to think I am in agreement with Dennis on most if not all comments on theory. I think dogs have progressed tremendously on their ability to learn and traditional force slowly is changing. I like the use of the lead throughout ff because I use it as a transfer of pressure tool. I mean that I start with ear pinch but transfer that pressure with a resistance of holding the collar. Not that I am not allowing the dog to fetch but rather "encouraging" the dog to fetch in response to the holding of the collar. I think dogs are naturally comfortable pulling as huskies do so I like to use ear pinch only as much as needed to get a pulling reflex then transfer that to the rope. This allows me to remove myself from putting my hand on the pup but still have control with the rope. Refusals are still dealt with ear pinches. I think I am teaching the word fetch and reenforcing this command both positively and negatively by reading the dogs effort in trying to be compliant. The rope is a tremendous tool that I use and I think is not being used enough in this force process.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But is a titled dog the only proof? Many titled dogs? A National win? Several National wins? Or does the method have to be embraced by "A-list" FT pros?
> 
> ...


Amen Alec. You should see the backyard bred, ill mannered messed up head cases I get to work with. Lardy told me himself that he as the option on which dogs to work with and he has no desire to work with dogs that don't meet his style. Must be nice...

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> So we are weeks into working with this dog and we've talked a lot about reading the dog. Whats the read on this dogs abilities for high level HT and FT's...?
> 
> 
> /Paul


Wow crickets on this question.

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Alec Sparks said:


> I like Dennis am amazed by the lack of input [either way] from the long time veteran poster/trainers on RTF............


I started out offering thoughts and opinions. As the days progressed, it became obvious that too many cooks in the kitchen were pushing the OP into areas he has no experience in which in would just do negative things to the dog. I can say that this thread has proved my much stated point.

You can't train a dog from a book, dvd or the internet. The best advice available from long time trainers who actually publish material professionally have not been able to assist this handler in getting the dog FF'd and in some ways the dog looks worse than it did when it was a fresh blank slate. 

Nothing is better than the hands on work with a qualified trainer.

/Paul


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Wow crickets on this question.
> 
> /Paul


Three of the most difficult dogs I've every trained were YLF and two went on to become AKC MH titled dogs. The third is an awesome hunting dog. 

I never say never.


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I started out offering thoughts and opinions. As the days progressed, it became obvious that too many cooks in the kitchen were pushing the OP into areas he has no experience in which in would just do negative things to the dog. I can say that this thread has proved my much stated point.
> 
> You can't train a dog from a book, dvd or the internet. The best advice available from long time trainers who actually publish material professionally have not been able to assist this handler in getting the dog FF'd and in some ways the dog looks worse than it did when it was a fresh blank slate.
> 
> ...


I guess our point was not advice for Kirk, but on the training concepts we support in general. 

Clearly Kirk had difficulty implementing some of the concepts we felt were very important. I fully agree that 'training dogs' over the net is fraught with peril and that's why I spent an hour today speaking to an RTFer on the phone about his program.........


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2011)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> I see you will soon have 4000 posts. I am wondering why do you post?


Dennis, I'm not sure if there is a single person on this forum who hasn't wondered the same thing.

John, John, go away. Come again another day...or not.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Dennis, I'm not sure if there is a single person on this forum who hasn't wondered the same thing.
> 
> John, John, go away. Come again another day...or not.


I see this.

/Paul


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> John
> 
> In my post, I tried to offer some useful information on the importance of ABC and my thoughts on combining pressure and restraint as well as dealing with the "want to fetch" dog. I even commented on the value of the Hillman approach.
> 
> ...


In my post #226 I though I explained to Alex why I asked....in http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showpost.php?p=859956&postcount=228 You have already answered my question, is there now a need to get off topic ?

john


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Subliminal would be teaching with a stimuli at below the perceptable level,below the threshold of sensation or consciousness if you will.
> 
> How would you do that with what's available in the marketplace


John
I use Dogtra and tri tronic collars. Both of those have a level that is low enough for most dogs.
When a low 1 is to high for a particular animal to be effective using this method,,,then what I do is CC to here using a higher level. But still at a low level. This has,,, always so far,,,,desensitize the dog to a low 1. So after you cc here the, dog doesn't feel a low 1. Now you can use it as prescribed. Also the " here" command is CC first for very specific reasons.
Don't forget we are using this method on a particular type of dog.

Realize that alot of dogs do not require this method,, but I will say it works better than anything I know of for a low food drive ,low prey drive dogs. And is a great intro method for nasty dogs. And allows the trainer to morph into higher pressure needed as the distraction become greater and more control is need. Its only a method during the processes to accerlerate learning.


personally I don't credit the method one uses but the application of that method. A good trainer can implement just about anything. 
I need to buy the Hillman tapes to see what all this hoop la is about.


Pete


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Pete said:


> John
> 
> I need to buy the Hillman tapes to see what all this hoop la is about.
> 
> ...


I want to take a look at them too.

I'll split em with ya....


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## LavenderLabs (Aug 28, 2005)

what a neat thread. I just got finished reading and watching all the movies. Man I have learned alot so far. I love this fourm


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> I want to take a look at them too.
> 
> I'll split em with ya....
> __________________


Thats a deal
And when we are done looking at it we can resell it and split the proceeds
Hows that
Pete


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Pete said:


> Thats a deal
> And when we are done looking at it we can resell it and split the proceeds
> Hows that
> Pete


Done/paid/it's on its way.

We'll be rich......[er]


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Pm me your adress and I'll send you some dough. You can analize it first and when your done with it just send it on over And when I'm done I'll ask you if you need to watch it again and if you do I'll send it back to you,,,,, if you don't I sell it for top dollar

We need to ivest in some rakes


Pete


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Pete said:


> Pm me your adress and I'll send you some dough. You can analize it first and when your done with it just send it on over And when I'm done I'll ask you if you need to watch it again and if you do I'll send it back to you,,,,, if you don't I sell it for top dollar
> 
> We need to ivest in some rakes
> 
> ...


Man, we got the smarts reel good.


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> In 6 years, I am one post away from making a total of 400 posts. Sometimes I truly wonder why I post here. I think it is mostly because of my concern for the dogs welfare.


Dennis, I for one am always very interested to read your posts. I think you have a great perspective and I always learn something. So I hope you will keep posting 

PS: I will totally buy the Hillman DVD off you guys when you are done...


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

mlopez said:


> Dennis, I for one am always very interested to read your posts. I think you have a great perspective and I always learn something. So I hope you will keep posting
> 
> PS: I will totally buy the Hillman DVD off you guys when you are done...


You'll pay top dollar after giving props to just Dennis. He ain't not even an 'merican!!


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Alec Sparks said:


> You'll pay top dollar after giving props to just Dennis. He ain't not even an 'merican!!


OH, no!!! He was just the one saying he doesn't know why he posts sometimes... I also always appreciate you too Alec! And Pete! And lots of others! Anyone who writes a well thought out and understandable post is on my good list. I really liked the video that you showed us of you at point of FF. I wish you had more. Its nice to hear how you do things differently than Kirk has been doing, but I would love to see it too. Just a thought...


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

mlopez said:


> OH, no!!! He was just the one saying he doesn't know why he posts sometimes... I also always appreciate you too Alec! And Pete! And lots of others! Anyone who writes a well thought out and understandable post is on my good list. I really liked the video that you showed us of you at point of FF. I wish you had more. Its nice to hear how you do things differently than Kirk has been doing, but I would love to see it too. Just a thought...


We have a high dollar reality show in post production called: Pro, Lord of the Marsh. It shows the fame and glamorous life style of different gun dog pros every week.

Mostly it's just counting money and fighting off the stalkerazzi but there may be some dog training from time to time if we run low on other gripping content such as bird pen cleaning and anal gland expressing.

I'd do some vids but not training in a circle for the camera, I need someone here. I'd like to show my easy intro to FF pressure.....anyone can learn/use that successfully and without mucking up a traditional program if that's where they're comfortable. I asked Jon to come video but he wasn't interested I guess.......


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

Friday night cocktails maybe?


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

labman63 said:


> Friday night cocktails maybe?


No, That's the normal irreverent,ever fun loving me just being me.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

If the goal is the behvior of delivery to hand, here is a process that is easy, quick and effective. Two 3-minute sessions (this is the first one) produced consistent delivery to hand. This was taped nearly a year ago and the behavior has been solid since.

I have known a number of house dogs that use a variation of the same process to "teach" humans to toss a ball or toy for them. When you walk into a friend's house and sit down and start conversing, sometimes the house dog comes over and nudges you on the leg. You look down and he has a ball in his mouth. You take it and toss it for him. The dog has taught himself to deliver to hand in order to be rewarded with a retrieve. If that dog can learn it by accident, we should be able to teach it by design.

In the video clip, the dog is being paid with a short retrieve for a delivery to hand. Payment is a tenns ball toss. A tennis ball is typically a higher value reward to a Lab. Note that when she picks the dummy up by the rope, she does not get paid. She quickly tries again and does get paid.


Unlike force fetch, with this process it is very difficult for a beginner to create problems.

Playing fetch from ground with Buccleuch Temperance​Reinforcing delivery to hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrOkq9fsSkI​


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## mlopez (Jul 22, 2011)

Alec Sparks said:


> We have a high dollar reality show in post production called: Pro, Lord of the Marsh. It shows the fame and glamorous life style of different gun dog pros every week.
> 
> Mostly it's just counting money and fighting off the stalkerazzi but there may be some dog training from time to time if we run low on other gripping content such as bird pen cleaning and anal gland expressing.


Wow, you make it sound so glamorous and very appealing  Can't wait to see if MTV picks that one up. Keep us updated 



> I'd do some vids but not training in a circle for the camera, I need someone here. I'd like to show my easy intro to FF pressure.....anyone can learn/use that successfully and without mucking up a traditional program if that's where they're comfortable. I asked Jon to come video but he wasn't interested I guess.......


Yeah, I can definitely see the need to having an actual camera person. Especially if you want to be able to move around a lot. Guess we will have to keep our fingers crossed that you find a good cameraman soon...


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

rmilner said:


> If the goal is the behvior of delivery to hand, here is a process that is easy, quick and effective. Two 3-minute sessions (this is the first one) produced consistent delivery to hand. This was taped nearly a year ago and the behavior has been solid since.
> 
> I have known a number of house dogs that use a variation of the same process to "teach" humans to toss a ball or toy for them. When you walk into a friend's house and sit down and start conversing, sometimes the house dog comes over and nudges you on the leg. You look down and he has a ball in his mouth. You take it and toss it for him. The dog has taught himself to deliver to hand in order to be rewarded with a retrieve. If that dog can learn it by accident, we should be able to teach it by design.
> 
> ...


Very cool!

I'm reminded of my firstborn at about 5 or 6 yrs. of age when we had our first snowstorm. "Daddy, Daddy can I help?? Please??" Couldn't hardly get the driveway shoveled for the little fart bein' in the way.

She begged and begged for one of those little toy snow shovels for Christmas and I'm thinkin' WOW, this is gonna be great when she gets big enough to really do it by herself.

Where did I go wrong, regards,

JS


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Isnt FF MORE than a dogs delivery, mouth habits, or eagerness to carry and hold?

My understanding,, If I even posess that quality, is FF is MORE about teaching pressure,,and giving the dog a trained ability to handle it.

My understanding is that there is a reason why FF comes before CC,, water force,, or cold blinds,, in most regimented training programs.

Or am I stating the obvious?


Gooser


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Isnt FF MORE than a dogs delivery, mouth habits, or eagerness to carry and hold?
> 
> My understanding,, If I even posess that quality, is FF is MORE about teaching pressure,,and giving the dog a trained ability to handle it.
> 
> ...


I think so, Gooser. 

But apparently not that obvious to some.

JS


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Isnt FF MORE than a dogs delivery, mouth habits, or eagerness to carry and hold?
> 
> My understanding,, If I even posess that quality, is FF is MORE about teaching pressure,,and giving the dog a trained ability to handle it.
> 
> ...


FWIW: I CC before FF and wouldn't do it the other way round.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2011)

rmilner said:


> In the video clip, the dog is being paid with a short retrieve for a delivery to hand. Payment is a tenns ball toss. A tennis ball is typically a higher value reward to a Lab.


I had to quote this so in case the poster suddenly realizes how preposterous it is and decides to delete his post, it will still live forever in posterity. 

Doing my best to preserve the classics regards...


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

JS said:


> Very cool!
> 
> I'm reminded of my firstborn at about 5 or 6 yrs. of age when we had our first snowstorm. "Daddy, Daddy can I help?? Please??" Couldn't hardly get the driveway shoveled for the little fart bein' in the way.
> 
> ...


You didn't reinforce the behavior by tossing her her a credit card. Typically a credit card has a higher value to a girl then a shovel. Just sayin.........


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Absolutely!
Especially when Homecoming or passing the mall and going into "Aeropostles".
Just adding by 2cents off topic seasonal drival.
Sue


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

Yeah, well very nice, Nancy & Sue. You sound just like her mother .

I wanted to pinch her ear and tell her to get out there and don't come back in til you're done! 

Lost that one too regards,

JS


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Isnt FF MORE than a dogs delivery, mouth habits, or eagerness to carry and hold?
> 
> My understanding,, If I even posess that quality, is FF is MORE about teaching pressure,,and giving the dog a trained ability to handle it.
> 
> ...


Yes, pretty much to all the above. The key benefit to FF is pressure conditioning. Hand delivery is more a co-benefit, but an important one. But there are yet others to performing the full skill set of force fetch, and it far transcends mere hand delivery.

Evan


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

I have added several videos from the past couple of days. Thanks for all the time on the phone and help off line Alec and Dennis. The last couple of days I have shortened the session. 

Looking forward to getting Sandy and I both through this process.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Any reports from some of the posters who recently ordered the Hillman FF video?

Steve


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> Any reports from some of the posters who recently ordered the Hillman FF video?
> 
> Steve


Just arrived....hopefully I'll get a look at it tomorrow. Tonight has been dedicated to the phone.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Have you had a chance to watch the Hillman video, Alec?

Steve


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## Alec Sparks (Jan 31, 2003)

Sabireley said:


> Have you had a chance to watch the Hillman video, Alec?
> 
> Steve


Sending PM...


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

Alec Sparks said:


> Sending PM...


Please don't go private with your answer.


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## rednek (Apr 24, 2011)

Kasomor said:


> Please don't go private with your answer.


Yeah,Alec,We would all like to hear your opinion of the video,I'm thinking of ordering it.


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Sandy and I had a blast at the North Georgia Hunt Test this weekend. We picked up her Started title.


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## Kasomor (Nov 29, 2008)

AWESOME!!

Congratulations.


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## Jason Myers (Mar 13, 2011)

This has been an awesome thread to read through. I'm getting prepared to do hold conditioning and possible FF with my lab soon. 

Some great info in here!


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## Kirkd (Nov 18, 2008)

Good luck Jason.



Jason Myers said:


> This has been an awesome thread to read through. I'm getting prepared to do hold conditioning and possible FF with my lab soon.
> 
> Some great info in here!


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## cmccallum (Jan 4, 2017)

This is one of the most informative threads on FF on this entire site.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

7 Years on ,and its interesting to read the early posts from Dennis and Evan.


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## cmccallum (Jan 4, 2017)

I wonder if any of their thoughts have evolved.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

If they haven't they wouldn't be the great trainers they are .


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