# thoughts on force fetch



## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

im new to this site, and interested in running my dog in hunt tests.please go easy on me when i ask the question( why do we have to ff our dogs?). am i missing the boat on this issue? my dog is 14 months old and retrieve to hand every time. this was his 1st year pheasant hunting and did not drop one bird, there were alot off cripples(im not the best shot ill admit).but even in training with the old pheasants he is rock solid. i understand during the tests the birds get used and abused! every dog has picked up the same sloppy wet duck and retrieved it to hand.my dog cant be the exception to the rule, what am i missing and am i behind the 8 ball at this point?


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

I think you just may be looking at FF in the wrong way. FF isn't done just to make a dog pick up birds, bumpers, ect. It is done to teach your dog how to react to pressure. ie I give the command FETCH and apply pressure in via the "ear pinch" when the the dog gets the bumper in his mouth the pressure is turned off. The faster the dog complies with the command the less time he has to deal with the pressure. Less about fetching and more about reacting to PRESSURE.

Hope this helps,

Jon


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

FF is less about nice retrieves and mouth habits than it is a myriad of other things.



.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Have a 10 year old that has his MH,HRCH,UH and 500 points. We got him at 14 months and had no traing what so ever. Started at 15 months. Can be done but stongly recommend getting some pro advice. Using Evan Graham's program and like the approach. But still a big strong dog is not for the faint of heart to force fetch. Good luck


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Jon Couch said:


> I think you just may be looking at FF in the wrong way. FF isn't done just to make a dog pick up birds, bumpers, ect. It is done to teach your dog how to react to pressure. ie I give the command FETCH and apply pressure in via the "ear pinch" when the the dog gets the bumper in his mouth the pressure is turned off. The faster the dog complies with the command the less time he has to deal with the pressure. Less about fetching and more about reacting to PRESSURE.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Jon


when he does drop during drills i commad hold (nick) hold, is this the same thing


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

major shredder said:


> when he does drop during drills i commad hold (nick) hold, is this the same thing


Not really. you are using direct pressure with the e-collar to solidify your hold command, but you are using momentary pressure instead of continous pressure. I don't personally correct with an e-collar on the hold command. That is where I would use FF after the dog was taught how to relieve the pressure through the FF process. Could you give us a little more insight into your training to date. 

Jon


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

major shredder said:


> when he does drop during drills i commad hold (nick) hold, is this the same thing


Well, I'm confused. You don't neccesarily need to FF your dog, or use an ecollar to succeed in HT. You haven't FF your dog. But, it sounds like you're using an ecollar on the dog.

As much as it pains me to say it, if seems to me that if you're going to use an ecollar, it makes sense to me to go the whole 'force/pressure' training route in order for the dog to understand what the ecollar means, and how to respond (Gawd, it sounds like I've been drinking the 'kewl-aide' :shock.

Two different approaches to training...don't really know if you can mix and match. I'm curious to know what others think about this.

Snick

So why, exactly, haven't you FF your dog?


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Jon Couch said:


> Not really. you are using direct pressure with the e-collar to solidify your hold command, but you are using momentary pressure instead of continous pressure. I don't personally correct with an e-collar on the hold command. That is where I would use FF after the dog was taught how to relieve the pressure through the FF process. Could you give us a little more insight into your training to date.
> 
> Jon


dog was taught with a broom stick to hold,took 1 week. when he did it right he got a treat,positive reinforcement. in his mind ,this is great i do what you say and i get a treat. dog loves to retrieve why do i want to force him to do something he already loves to do.if i love my job i dont have to be forced to go 40 hours a week. if you yell at me all the time for doing my job i dont want to come to work. i see alot of dogs that are timid but they do there job because there are forced to i want a dog that is confident and bold and loves to retrieve! life is grand!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

HI Shredder,

It sounds to me like you have answered your own question. It sounds like you are getting the results you desire, so maybe there's no need to take any additional steps or do training in which you don't find value.

Have fun and if you and your dog are happy and enjoying it - go ahead and do it your way!

Chris


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

major shredder said:


> dog was taught with a broom stick to hold,took 1 week. when he did it right he got a treat,positive reinforcement. in his mind ,this is great i do what you say and i get a treat. dog loves to retrieve why do i want to force him to do something he already loves to do.if i love my job i dont have to be forced to go 40 hours a week. if you yell at me all the time for doing my job i dont want to come to work. i see alot of dogs that are timid but they do there job because there are forced to i want a dog that is confident and bold and loves to retrieve! life is grand!


there is no pressurewhen i do what i love,when you make me do something you are creating pressure


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

Although I force fetch my dogs, not everyone in my training group does. Although not force fetched, these dogs are doing quite well on the hunt test scene. I feel that you get a different kind of work from the dog because it is a command and not a request. My impression with my dogs is that after I force fetch a dog, the dog is much quicker in reaching for an object and more energetic. Also, if the dog should drop the bird, even if it is at my feet, there is no question as to what the dog is supposed to do when I say fetch


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

Snicklefritz said:


> Well, I'm confused. You don't neccesarily need to FF your dog, or use an ecollar to succeed in HT. You haven't FF your dog. But, it sounds like you're using an ecollar on the dog.
> 
> As much as it pains me to say it, if seems to me that if you're going to use an ecollar, it makes sense to me to go the whole 'force/pressure' training route in order for the dog to understand what the ecollar means, and how to respond (Gawd, it sounds like I've been drinking the 'kewl-aide' :shock.
> 
> ...


Snick,

I personaly wouldn't use an e-collar w/o FF. I feel they go hand in hand and you need both to ensure that the dog has a full understanding of how to get out of pressure. Your either Amish or Not Now who has been drinking the Koolaide.

Jon


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Jon Couch said:


> Snick,
> 
> I personaly wouldn't use an e-collar w/o FF. I feel they go hand in hand and you need both to ensure that the dog has a full understanding of how to get out of pressure. Your either Amish or Not Now who has been drinking the Koolaide.
> Jon


LOL! I agree, obviously.

To the OP, I feel the same way you do about forcing a dog to do something he is willing to do anyway. Although, there _have_ been moments along the way when I thought...(no not goin' there)...and I haven't regreted it even though it has taken longer and there isn't as much help available.

If you decide not to use force, you get my vote. But, I've learned there is a great deal to learned from those that train differently. So, don't close your mind to what can be learned from hose who have gone before you.

But, in all fairness to the dog, and that's my primary concern, think about it and make a choice. Your dog deserves your best judgement. Nobody here's gonna hold it agin' ya whatever you decide. So, do what's best for you and your dog.

I think Chris Atkinson said it much better than I.

Shuttin' my mouth now - Snick


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## dnf777 (Jun 9, 2009)

Sounds like you have a great dog!

Force fetching in no way diminished the need for praise and positive reinforcement. Training should weigh heavily in favor of positivity, especially when teaching new concepts.

Your dog is lucky to have you.


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Snicklefritz said:


> Well, I'm confused. You don't neccesarily need to FF your dog, or use an ecollar to succeed in HT. You haven't FF your dog. But, it sounds like you're using an ecollar on the dog.
> 
> As much as it pains me to say it, if seems to me that if you're going to use an ecollar, it makes sense to me to go the whole 'force/pressure' training route in order for the dog to understand what the ecollar means, and how to respond (Gawd, it sounds like I've been drinking the 'kewl-aide' :shock.
> 
> ...


why should i ?


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

give me a reason why i should that was the origanal question


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Jon Couch said:


> Snick,
> 
> I personaly wouldn't use an e-collar w/o FF. I feel they go hand in hand and you need both to ensure that the dog has a full understanding of how to get out of pressure. Your either Amish or Not Now who has been drinking the Koolaide.
> 
> Jon


explain that last sentence kool aid boy


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

major shredder said:


> give me a reason why i should that was the origanal question


Try giving this a read: http://www.northernflight.com/forcefetch.htm


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Kyle B said:


> Try giving this a read: http://www.northernflight.com/forcefetch.htm


kyle b you get an a+ from me that was what i was looking for, a must read for everyone thank you so much!


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

No problem. Butch writes for the Retriever Journal and I believe he does a pretty good job of explaining things so that everyone understands. Worthy of reading through his website where he has posted all of his articles.


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

In addition to the article referenced previously, I think a more complete answer to the question “Why should I force break my dog?” should include some explanation of what constitutes a complete training program involving use of an e-collar. 

If following a complete and proven e-collar training program, you will instill in the dog ALL the tools you will need to train the dog on concepts and tests necessary to compete at the all-age level in FT’s.
Without over simplifying things, you will need tools that will allow you to do the following with the dog: Make him stop, make him go, make him go where you want, make him come back with the bird, and all this on either land or water or a combination of both.

If you use an e-collar, but have not done FF, you are walking a fine line as you progress through teaching and training on increasingly difficult concepts and tests. Obviously, this is more of a concern for those who desire progression to compete at the FT all-age level. FF is necessary to progress to “force to go”. “FF and force to go” are tools you need when your dog refuses to go when sent on a mark or blind. 

If your dog refuses to go when sent on a retrieve, and you haven’t done FF or force to go, what do you do?

Other then quitting, your only option at this point would be to simplify what you are doing, and somehow entice the dog to complete the retrieve, This does 2 things. It teaches the dog that the way to reduce pressure is to refuse to go; and it delays progression and teaching because you’ll need to take some time and care before placing the dog back into a pressure situation where, very likely, he will again refuse to go when pressured. (Go back to start of paragraph at this point). 

I understand and appreciate that there are certainly situations and individual dogs who will benefit greatly by simplification and "backing off". Actually that is another type of "tool", and should be used if appropriate when the trainer recognizes that he/she is asking for too much too soon. But in other cases, simplifying and backing off are very counter-productive, and that's why you still need a "complete tool box". 

This is more important when using an e-collar is because the perceived pressure with e-collar use is generally greater than without.

Of course, there is a possibility, that somewhere, there exists a dog trainer who uses an e-collar, and who trains and successfully competes at the all-age level, who has never had a dog refuse to go when sent.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

major shredder said:


> give me a reason why i should that was the origanal question


Because of the numerous benefits for your dog. It's been wrongly assumed for decades that we only force fetch dogs to obtain a hand delivery. Hand delivery has evolved into almost a co-benefit.


What is force fetch?


The Myths


More appropriately, there are more misperceptions than myths surrounding the process of force fetching retrievers. I think it starts with the term _force._ To the novice trainer/dog lover that word summons visions of a dog being thrashed or brutalized in some way or another. There are stories, some true, some contrived, about harsh measures being used to force fetch, like using bottle openers, pliers, etc. Nothing like that will appear as a suggestion in this text because it has nothing to do with how I approach it. Let’s start there and clear the air about that subject.



Force: In retriever training this is a term that describes the use of pressure to achieve a sure and reliable response.* Influence that moves something, *says the dictionary*. *The amount of pressure is specified more by the dog than by the trainer. Often very little actual pressure is needed.
Pressure: something that affects thoughts and behavior in a powerful way, usually in the form of several outside influences working together persuasively.

Nowhere in any definition of these terms is abuse or brutality, nor should it be. Like many things, force and pressure are either good or bad depending on how they are applied. 


Another misperception is often the assumption that retrievers do all of their retrieving functions by nature, and shouldn’t need to be forced. Frankly, about all that dogs do by nature is to chase after motion, and follow their curiosity about what they smell. We cultivate the rest, both passively and through the use of pressure. Even the most basic puppy-fetch conditioning we all do to get them started is an act we contrive. These dogs retrieve out of self-centered impulses. Bringing birds to us is not a nature-driven act. Thankfully, it can be easily engineered!


Take a well-bred pup and turn him loose in a fenced yard for three years, or so. Leave him strictly to the influences of nature. Then go out one day and see how well he does on the type of retrieving work that would make him useful in game conservation. Compare his work to even an average gun dog with amateur training. How do you think it would come out? No brainer! Whatever natural gifts a dog may have, without some kind of guidance they will tend to be of little value.


It’s not a negative statement that retrievers need training to do the work we need them to do in the field and marsh. That type of work requires a dog to have good natural abilities, but also to be taught how to put those abilities to work because the skills and functions we require are _our_ idea. We invented them. It’s okay. That’s why dogs and trainers are so often referred to as a team. Both contribute to the effort.

*The Reality*



First of all, force fetch is more than just one thing. It is a definable process with clear goals. But, within the process are several steps or phases. Those steps will be laid out later, but first let’s examine the goals.



To establish a standard for acceptable mouth habits.
To provide the trainer with a tool to maintain those habits.
To provide the trainer with a tool to assure compliance with the command to retrieve.
To form the foundation for impetus (momentum).
Pressure conditioning.

Mouth habits include such important items as fetching on command, even when your dog may be distracted, or moody, or any number of things that might interfere with compliance. Sure, you may get away for years without having such problems, but being smart and being lucky are not the same thing. Force fetch gives you a tool to handle this when it comes up, plus some insurance that it is less likely to come up due to this training. 


Along with compulsion issues we need to mention a proper hold, and delivery on command. If my pheasant is punctured I want it to be from pellets, not teeth. That actually covers some ground in all of the first three categories.


Let’s spend a little time on number four. Lots of people use the terms _momentum_ and _style_ interchangeably. I think it’s important to distinguish between the two because of how they relate to this subject. Force fetch is the foundation of trained momentum, and provides a springboard into subsequent steps of basic development. Style has little to do with this. Here’s why.



Style: A combination of speed, enthusiasm, and just plain hustle that you see in a dog going toward a fall. Style is the product of natural desire and athleticism. 
Momentum: In a retriever, the compulsion from the dog’s point of origin; defined in the dictionary as “the force possessed by a body in motion,*Measure of movement: *a quantity that expresses the motion of a body and its resistance to slowing down. It is equal to the product of the body’s mass and velocity”.

Clearly, this quality is a tremendously valuable asset in the running of blinds and overcoming diversion pressure. It even applies to running long marks, and/or marks through tough cover or terrain. When you need a dog to drive hundreds of yards against the draining influences of terrain, cover, re-entries, and all of the real and perceived factors that are so commonly momentum-robbing, having a dog with a reservoir of momentum is immensely valuable. Force fetch is where that reservoir is established, and can be built upon.


From the foundation of a _forced_ fetch most modern methods progress through stages that continue to build on this principle. Stick fetch, Collar Condition to fetch, Walking fetch, Force to pile, and Water force are all extensions of the work we do in ear pinch or toe hitch, which are popular means to get it all going. When a dog has finished such a course the result is an animal far more driven, with much more resolve to overcome obstacles and distance and distractions.


Lest we forget ~


I am not suggesting that we harm or abuse dogs in any of this force work I’ve spoken of. The late Jim Kappes said, _“A properly forced dog shouldn’t look forced”._ I completely agree. Momentum and style are distinct terms, each with their own meanings, as pertains to retrievers. I firmly believe that both are traits that should co-exist in a well-trained retriever.​ 
Evan


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Evan you are wasting your breath with this person. He already got it in his head FF is not needed because his dog does everything. One wonders why he really posted this. He seems to have the anser each time why not to FF.


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## Jon Couch (Jan 2, 2008)

major shredder said:


> explain that last sentence kool aid boy


 
Sorry I should have explained myself a little further on that comment. "Amish" training is considered that it is done with out an e-collar and most times FF as well. The kool aid comment was more of an inside joke "Snick knows what I meant" sorry for the confusion. As far as your original question I think you got a good idea of the positive effects through Butch's article and Evan's post. No matter which way you decide to go have fun, be fair, and I'm sure we'll see you this summer at a test near you.

Jon


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

moscowitz said:


> Evan you are wasting your breath with this person. He already got it in his head FF is not needed because his dog does everything. One wonders why he really posted this. He seems to have the anser each time why not to FF.


I think that you are being unfair to the OP. He is presented with a dilemma. As I have mentioned there are members of my training group who have not force fetched their dogs but are successful. I believe that spaniel trainers traditionally have felt that force fetching is not necessary. I personally like force fetching for all the reasons stated above.


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Evan said:


> Because of the numerous benefits for your dog. It's been wrongly assumed for decades that we only force fetch dogs to obtain a hand delivery. Hand delivery has evolved into almost a co-benefit.
> 
> 
> What is force fetch?
> ...


wow! you have given me alot of insite on ff. really something to think about! thank you for your time in showing me the light to this concept of ff. i believe im am starting to understand the benifits to ff much more clearly now. you sound like a person of great knowledge of this subject. thank you for sharing your veiws with me. i will refer to this post often


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

minnducker said:


> In addition to the article referenced previously, I think a more complete answer to the question “Why should I force break my dog?” should include some explanation of what constitutes a complete training program involving use of an e-collar.
> 
> If following a complete and proven e-collar training program, you will instill in the dog ALL the tools you will need to train the dog on concepts and tests necessary to compete at the all-age level in FT’s.
> Without over simplifying things, you will need tools that will allow you to do the following with the dog: Make him stop, make him go, make him go where you want, make him come back with the bird, and all this on either land or water or a combination of both.
> ...


you have been of great help on this subject,i will have to give this some seriuos thought,there seems to be alot more to this than i 1st assumed. people like you that are willing to help people like me are hard to find, and i thank you for sharing


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

thanks for your input on this subject


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

gdgnyc said:


> I think that you are being unfair to the OP. He is presented with a dilemma. As I have mentioned there are members of my training group who have not force fetched their dogs but are successful. I believe that spaniel trainers traditionally have felt that force fetching is not necessary. I personally like force fetching for all the reasons stated above.





gdgnyc said:


> Although I force fetch my dogs, not everyone in my training group does. Although not force fetched, these dogs are doing quite well on the hunt test scene. I feel that you get a different kind of work from the dog because it is a command and not a request. My impression with my dogs is that after I force fetch a dog, the dog is much quicker in reaching for an object and more energetic. Also, if the dog should drop the bird, even if it is at my feet, there is no question as to what the dog is supposed to do when I say fetch


sounds like i have a decission to make,to force fetch or not.as a beginner these are tuff concepts to grasp not truely understanding the benefits for both me and my dog.of all the people you seem to understand where i am at,the cross road.


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

dnf777 said:


> Sounds like you have a great dog!
> 
> Force fetching in no way diminished the need for praise and positive reinforcement. Training should weigh heavily in favor of positivity, especially when teaching new concepts.
> 
> Your dog is lucky to have you.


thank you for the nice comment,as a beginner its people like you that help me strive forward. and eventually make the right choice on tuff issues


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

major shredder said:


> wow! you have given me alot of insite on ff. really something to think about! thank you for your time in showing me the light to this concept of ff. i believe im am starting to understand the benifits to ff much more clearly now. you sound like a person of great knowledge of this subject. thank you for sharing your veiws with me. i will refer to this post often


Glad to help. Some views of how my process works are shown on You Tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd72kl9lZlc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mxo6wdHl2w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAIFgb3Ki0

Evan


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

moscowitz said:


> Evan you are wasting your breath with this person. He already got it in his head FF is not needed because his dog does everything. One wonders why he really posted this. He seems to have the anser each time why not to FF.


 
I think the feller is just very new and wanting to learn......
He don't Even know Evan has training vids for sale.....
Lets let the Major learn....
like the transition dog, you can see the learnin' every day;-)


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## Jason B (Sep 1, 2009)

To the OP, thank you for asking this question. I had a dog that delivered to hand 100% of the time and would never drop a bird and never refused a retrieve. So, like you, I always wondered why people were asking when I was going to get him through FF. 

To the contributors: thanks for the clarification, I have a completely new outlook on what FF is really about now. 

Thanks again!


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

And then there are those who think that delivery to hand should be obtained by breeding selection and merely preserved in the individual dog. Force fetch is not encountered in the UK, the country from which we got Labradors initially in the 1920s and 1930s.

Fetching from the ground (for when a dog does drop a bird) and delivery to hand can be taught as a game. Many times I have gone into a friends house, sat down and been approached by the family dog, who nudges me on the leg. He has a ball in his mouth. I toss the ball. That dog has trained himself to deliver to hand in order to get a human to throw the ball for him.

I use that process to train dogs to deliver to hand. Here is a video clip:

Buccleuch Temperence
Reinforcing delivery to hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrOkq9fsSkI


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Hi Shredder,

I believe you have my phone number. Feel free to call if I can help.

Like many on here, I've had non-FF/non-ecollar dogs. I have had FF/non-ecollar dogs. I currently have an FF/Ecollar dog ala Lardy program.

I doubt that I will go back to earlier programs, but am certainly open-minded to training that makes things more efficient, easier, or produces better results. I doubt that I will have any more non-FF/non-ecollar retrievers. 

Chris


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## J. Walker (Feb 21, 2009)

rmilner said:


> And then there are those who think that delivery to hand should be obtained by breeding selection and merely preserved in the individual dog. Force fetch is not encountered in the UK, the country from which we got Labradors initially in the 1920s and 1930s.
> 
> Fetching from the ground (for when a dog does drop a bird) and delivery to hand can be taught as a game. Many times I have gone into a friends house, sat down and been approached by the family dog, who nudges me on the leg. He has a ball in his mouth. I toss the ball. That dog has trained himself to deliver to hand in order to get a human to throw the ball for him.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more! My current pup was not force fetched, forced to pile or forced to water. Instead, he was taught what I wanted through methods that made sense to him. As a result, he has great mouth habits, _strong_ momentum on marks and blinds, and is as honest around water as any dog you'll see. My rescued Golden came to us when he was about 20 months-old. He had never picked up a bumper or bird. Without force fetch, he now LOVES fetching birds as he snatches them up and brings them right back. (I've trained two other dogs of my own in the same way.) I have just trained an 11 month-old Lab of a friend of mine to be reliable with his mouth habits, to fetch from the ground, etc. in about two weeks of almost entirely positive training. He had no training whatsoever before me. When his owner would throw a bumper, the dog would run out, pick it up by the rope, sling it into the air, and leave it where it landed. He now delivers to hand to both the right and left sides, heels, comes when called, sits on the whistle, sit-stays, does basic doubles, and is starting on line to pile. This is just since November with many weather delays thrown in there. A friend of mine put a dog into the Field Dog Hall of Fame and had numerous All-Age placements with other dogs without force fetching. The same friend owns four dogs now, three of which are Master Hunters. I'm not saying I don't believe in training/teaching the dogs to retrieve properly, just that I don't believe one needs to make this process filled with pain and negativity.

In contrast, I've seen professionally force fetched dogs rolling birds, sticking on birds, and refusing to pick up freshly killed or wounded birds. I'm just saying that I've seen bad mouth/retrieving habits in dogs that went through the full, formal process of force fetch. In fact, my trainer friend has turned around many dogs that have shut down due to all the force methods used by their previous trainers.

In terms of it teaching dogs to handle pressure, not buying it.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

J. Walker said:


> In terms of it teaching dogs to handle pressure, not buying it.


To this I would only defer to your own signature line. 

"When a good trainer stops learning about dogs, he stops being a good trainer."

Gene Hill

Best of luck.

Evan


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## Jason B (Sep 1, 2009)

J. Walker said:


> In terms of it teaching dogs to handle pressure, not buying it.


I'm new and all, but it does make perfectly good sense to me.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

J. Walker said:


> In terms of it teaching dogs to handle pressure, not buying it.




I would hope the OP and other FF nay sayers, would look at the concept of "odds of probable success".

If you just want a retreiver to do a bit of hunting with or maybe run some Junior or Senior hunt tests (or perhaps a bit beyond) you could probably do nicely without FF as part of your program, depending on the dog. 

However the fact is that the vast majority of retreiver trainers, who are experienced in this game and compete successfully at the highest level, use FF and agree that it is part of the process to condition a dog to handle pressure. 

Perhaps the question that should be asked is: " If the vast majority of the best and most successful retriever trainers in the world are using FF as part of their training program, why would we listen to those who are less experienced and successful?" 

If your going to build your own house would you not seek advice from someone with a proven record of quality construction, or would you seek advice from the guy down the street whose only experience is building haybarns, tool sheds and outhouses?????

There are always exceptions and you can certainly have a well trained competative retriever without the use of FF or any other of the myriad of techniques.

It's just that the "odds of probable success" would be heavily stacked against you.


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

I've seen the results of force fetch and collar conditioning in my first dog. He was trained by a pro and was a very good and reliable hunting dog. My current puppy will be force fetched and collar conditioned by me. Some naysayers might call me a lamb, but I believe in ff/cc because the local pros that I've worked with, and also national pros like Evan and Mike Lardy, have shown me that this is how it's done. They have also proven to me that by following a fair, taught process, you will not dampen the dog's enthusiasm or spirit. The bottom line is, I'm willing to defer to the experts who have trained many more dogs, to high levels, than I can ever imagine. 

Having said all of that, I read a lot in these ff/cc discussions about conditioning the dog to handle adversity and pressure, but I don't recall many people including examples of this pressure in hunting, hunt test and field trial situations. Perhaps it would be beneficial to us novices, if some of you experienced ff/cc advocates could provide real world examples to illustrate the pressure that you are talking about. 

I really enjoy these threads up until the point that they devolve into needless, and sometimes mindless, poop throwing. Hopefully we can get a couple of more pages out of this one!

Thanks.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

rmilner said:


> And then there are those who think that delivery to hand should be obtained by breeding selection and merely preserved in the individual dog. Force fetch is not encountered in the UK, the country from which we got Labradors initially in the 1920s and 1930s.
> 
> Fetching from the ground (for when a dog does drop a bird) and delivery to hand can be taught as a game. Many times I have gone into a friends house, sat down and been approached by the family dog, who nudges me on the leg. He has a ball in his mouth. I toss the ball. That dog has trained himself to deliver to hand in order to get a human to throw the ball for him.
> 
> ...


Can you have a retriever that naturally delivers to hand with good mouth habits without FF? Certainly. I think most good trainers to that at the puppy stage. Right now I have a 15 week old puppy that delivers to hand and holds birds and bumpers very well. He obviously has not been force fetched, but I guarantee you he will.


*As stated by Evan earlier:*
First of all, force fetch is more than just one thing. It is a definable process with clear goals. But, within the process are several steps or phases. Those steps will be laid out later, but first let’s examine the goals.

To establish a standard for acceptable mouth habits.
To provide the trainer with a tool to maintain those habits.
To provide the trainer with a tool to assure compliance with the command to retrieve.
To form the foundation for impetus (momentum).
Pressure conditioning.

#1 can be accomplished without FF. It is simply a byproduct of FF in my mind.
#2 probably can't be accomplished without reteaching in a non FF program.
#3 cannot be done without a method and *dog's understanding* of force and how to escape it. Most failures people see in dogs that have been FF'd is probably due to the dog not completely understanding what is asked of him/her.
#4 cannot be done without a method and *dog's understanding* of force and how to escape it. You can have a fast dog without FF, but it may not have a foundation.
#5 cannot be done without a method and *dog's understanding* of force and how to escape it. To advanced field training, this is in my opinion the #1 benefit of FF.
Most arguments against FF are the same old "my dog delivers to hand naturally" and "I want him to learn through priase and teaching". I have never seen or heard of a good trainer that stops teaching or stops praising during FF. As a matter of fact, I probably triple the praise I give my dogs during FF. They also are wagging their tales like mad during the process, and after I am done, they always appear to be that much happier, focused and motivated to retrieve than before.

A good friend of mine and very respected pro trainer once said, *"The most inhumane correction given to a dog is one that has to be given more than once."* Basically, the dog must understand how to avoid the correction in the future.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

whitefoot said:


> Having said all of that, I read a lot in these ff/cc discussions about conditioning the dog to handle adversity and pressure, but I don't recall many people including examples of this pressure in hunting, hunt test and field trial situations.


Pressure is used to change an action and can take place in a number of different forms. Some I can think of is:

Spanking
Scolding
Dominate Posture
Mean Look
Collar Correction
Verbal No
Lead Correction
Heeling Stick
Ear Pinch
Pressure for the most part must be avoided in hunt test and field trials, due to the handler not being able to intimidate the dog during the trial. In hunting, someone may use pressure for breaking, vocalization, hard mouth, movement, etc. 

Pressure is more commonly used in training to assist in reinforcing a desireable trait that has previously been taught, such as not cheating water, taking on cover, sit, heel, here, etc. We use the reinforcement so that, hopefully, when it counts the dog does what we have taught it to do, and we walk away with a ribbon, or bird (in hunting) that other dogs did or could not.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

whitefoot said:


> Perhaps it would be beneficial to us novices, if some of you experienced ff/cc advocates could provide real world examples to illustrate the pressure that you are talking about.
> Thanks.


the by-product of force-fetch deals not only with retrieving but producing a dog that understands he must comply with all commands. He learns that there is no escaping that compliance whether that includes retrieving from icy water or the heaviest of cover.
Butch Goodwin​
5 seconds to go in game. Your team is down by 2 points and you are at the free throw line shooting a 1 and 1. If all you've ever done is shoot free throws in a quiet, relaxed gym you "might" find that the rim has shrunk (note...I said "might" There are always exceptions to the "rule.")

I honestly think my dog had a change in her behavior after we finished force fetch. Its as if I became the pack leader. And no...I didn't beat my dog into submission. I simply "forced" her to comply. Sorta the way my grandmother used to do to me and my brothers in church 

You can apply too much pressure and ruin a dog. Therefore I'd recommend a person take their time and learn how to do it properly. In the end, everybody has to do what they are comfortable with.


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

I'm glad I asked, because I hadn't conceptualized pressure that way


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Just adding from my experience. I did have my new pup ff and cc by the breeder. I am not a heavy collar user but when I am teaching blind work and I want a quick sit and the dog is way out there, the E-collar has been most helpful. Whistle sit with a little page or nick bottoms down quite quick. 
What I wanted to say was - it is important to whom you get as a pro to assist you with FF or CC. Be sure the person is reliable, experienced and you have referenced sources before turning your dog over to be FF or CC. With my first dog the socalled pro was neither experienced nor able to ff or cc properly. It cost me big time!!Good luck with your decision.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

I enjoy sitting back and







in these kinda' conversations about FF...I think it'll be a discussion that'll be around for a long, _long_ time...I really enjoy reading Mr.Grahams' summary.




> give me a reason why i should that was the origanal question


..I find it hard to answer it as"Why should I?", or "Why I shouldn't"...I see the answer within whatever _Goals_ you have set forth for your pups' retrieving future...


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

J. Walker said:


> I don't believe one needs to make this process filled with pain and negativity.


And those of us who *do* FF and use the ecollar believe exacctly the same way.



.


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

In contrast, I've seen professionally force fetched dogs rolling birds, sticking on birds, and refusing to pick up freshly killed or wounded birds. I'm just saying that I've seen bad mouth/retrieving habits in dogs that went through the full, formal process of force fetch. In fact, my trainer friend has turned around many dogs that have shut down due to all the force methods used by their previous trainers.

In terms of it teaching dogs to handle pressure, not buying it.
Gene Hill

" *A fully forced dog shows no sign of ever being forced " *Steve S


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

J. Walker said:


> I don't believe one needs to make this process filled with pain and negativity.


If the FF process is inflicting a lot of pain and negativity on the dog, then it is being done incorrectly.

While there is undoubtably stress/pressure on the dog during the process, done properly, the end result of FF should be a happy, confident, hard running dog with a great work ethic, who bounces with excitement and anticipation when the collar comes out because he has a positive association with it.


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## gdgnyc (May 4, 2009)

major shredder, check your messages.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

rmilner said:


> And then there are those who think that delivery to hand should be obtained by breeding selection and merely preserved in the individual dog. Force fetch is not encountered in the UK, the country from which we got Labradors initially in the 1920s and 1930s.


I've *never* had a Lab that didn't *naturally* deliver to hand (none were British, one was half-British).
I've had two Labs that I didn't FF. 
I currently have two Labs that I did FF.
Because of sooooo many other things that FF does (besides nice mouth habits), I'll never have another dog that is not FF.
What do you (how do you train) for the other things that Mr. Graham mentioned?



.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

The end result of training a gundog without stress/pressure, etc. is a happy, confident, hard running dog with a great work ethic. Training without stress and pressure is also more fun for the dog and for the trainer.


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

rmilner said:


> The end result of training a gundog without stress/pressure, etc. is a happy, confident, hard running dog with a great work ethic. Training without stress and pressure is also more fun for the dog and for the trainer.


How do you train without stress and pressure? I'm all for MINIMAL stress and pressure, but I just don't see how a dog can be trained with zero stress and pressure. Don't collars and leads provide stress and pressure?


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

rmilner said:


> The end result of training a gundog without stress/pressure, etc. is a happy, confident, hard running dog with a great work ethic. Training without stress and pressure is also more fun for the dog and for the trainer.


Of the dogs that I've had over the last 40+ years, the ones that I've FF and used the ecollar have been *just* as happy, *more* confident and *harder* running, with a *superb* work ethic compared to the dogs trained with a "kinder, gentler" approach.

Training with FF and the ecollar is just as fun as without. Actually, when observing the final product, it ends up being more fun for the dog and the trainer.



.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

whitefoot said:


> How do you train without stress and pressure? I'm all for MINIMAL stress and pressure, but I just don't see how a dog can be trained with zero stress and pressure. Don't collars and leads provide stress and pressure?


Yes, they do. Nothing in the world moves without pressure. The only question is how much, and the word "pressure" does not imply an amount.

Evan


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

rmilner said:


> The end result of training a gundog without stress/pressure, Training without stress and pressure is also more fun for the dog and for the trainer.


I haven't seen a gundog that was trained without stress/pressure. I've heard trainers say that showing a very difficult test to a dog can stress the dog.

Anyway, the end result of training a gundog *with* stress/pressure etc. is a happy, confident, hard running dog with a great work ethic... If it is done properly. 

As I said, I've never seen it done without stress/pressure so I can't say which is more fun, but I know that I had plenty and my dogs appeared to have plenty fun as well.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Training without the pressure and stress is not only more fun; I get to skip all the force fetch, collar conditioning, force to pile, heeling stick, etc,etc. Those take a lot if time, and are not fun. The training progresses much faster without all the force regimens.


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## Philip Carson (Mar 17, 2009)

Evan said:


> Yes, they do. Nothing in the world moves without pressure. The only question is how much, and the word "pressure" does not imply an amount.
> 
> Evan


How about Vince?


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Philip Carson said:


> How about Vince?


Yeah, I have to pressure him too! LeeAnn's better at getting him moving than I am!

Evan


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

on a competitive obedience list to which I belong you have to sign every post with the highest level of obedience title you have ever achieved, and most people list how many times they're gotten that title, too. It sort of helps people digest the responses. Would love to see people here do that, too.
Barb (JH)


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

rmilner said:


> Training without the pressure and stress is not only more fun; I get to skip all the force fetch, collar conditioning, force to pile, heeling stick, etc,etc. Those take a lot if time, and are not fun. *The training progresses much faster without all the force regimens.*


 Respectfully Mr. Milner, I believe this is true up to a certain point..Where a dog w/out all of the initial structure will lag behind..but then the time comes when that same Force-Trained, Collar trained dog catches up, and at times will surpass...


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Swampbilly said:


> Respectfully Mr. Milner, I believe this is true up to a certain point..Where a dog w/out all of the initial structure will lag behind..but then the time comes when that same Force-Trained, Collar trained dog catches up, and at times will surpass...


And equally as important, that same Force-Trained, Collar trained dog tends to be more stable and reliable in the field under a wide variety of challenging conditions. The handler of that dog also has tools to use for maintaining that standard that the un-CC'd, un-forced dog simply does not. 

Evan


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

rmilner said:


> *Training without the pressure* *and stress* is not only more fun; I get to skip all the force fetch, collar conditioning, force to pile, heeling stick, etc,etc. Those take a lot if time, and are not fun. *The training progresses much faster without all the force regimens.*


*Training without the pressure and stress* - I would think you use pressure, probably just different forms of pressure. 

*The training progresses much faster without all the force regimens* - I don't believe this for a minute. I have seen some FF'd dogs doing some unbelievable retrieves (blinds and marks) at one year of age. Besides that, it shouldn't be a race. The goal should be to produce the best retriever in the long run.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Evan said:


> And equally as important, that same Force-Trained, Collar trained dog tends to be more stable and reliable in the field under a wide variety of challenging conditions. The handler of that dog also has tools to use for maintaining that standard that the un-CC'd, un-forced dog simply does not.
> 
> Evan


..Yes Sir...My own limited experiences have shown me that when the more difficult tasks begin, you got the tools..(and my P.F. Flyers are worn out now ;-)).

On a side note, there are a lot of dawgs out there in a FF/Collar Trained regimen...I believe if one wants to be competitive, it might be a good idea to train this way.. Lots of competition out there...In my mind, it boils down to ones' _Goals_ ...


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

Would it be fair to say most of us have forced trained our dogs to the SIT command?

Sure, maybe a treat coaxed the pups into position and we gave them praise for doing so, but at some point we left the cookies at home and started lifting their heads, pressing their rumps, and tugging on their collars.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

I have found that dogs trained without force, pressure, and electric collar are quite stable and reliable. I have found that they are excellent gundogs who meet and maintain a very high standard of work.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

hotel4dogs said:


> on a competitive obedience list to which I belong you have to sign every post with the highest level of obedience title you have ever achieved, and most people list how many times they're gotten that title, too. It sort of helps people digest the responses. Would love to see people here do that, too.
> Barb (JH)


 
Some folk never test, but train a lot.
Some professional dog trainers let the clients run their own dogs.
Some of the best trained dogs never test/trial but hunt a lot.
Some folk truly want to help any newbie with a question, and if they know how……
I am always more interested is what a person says than what they did.
I like the contents of a persons words, 
not the “LOOK AT ME” crowd that will brag about accomplishments.

Congrats on that JH





.


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## hotel4dogs (Aug 2, 2010)

All excellent points, thanks for the post.



Ken Bora said:


> Some folk never test, but train a lot.
> Some professional dog trainers let the clients run their own dogs.
> Some of the best trained dogs never test/trial but hunt a lot.
> Some folk truly want to help any newbie with a question, and if they know how……
> ...


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

rmilner said:


> I have found that dogs trained without force, pressure, and electric collar are quite stable and reliable. I have found that they are excellent gundogs who meet and maintain a very high standard of work.


With all due respect Mr. Milner, I believe much of your philosphy (and your continual reciting of the same mantra) may come from attempting to market your particular style of non-confrontational training to prospective clients.

While your web site states some pretty impressive credentials, how long has it been since you've competed successfully with a dog trained in your style, in one of todays All Age field trial stakes? 

When we're comparing excellence, high standards, and retrieving abilities I think it's important to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

My standard of an excellence in a gundog is a dog with excellent manners and one that collects all the birds with minimum help and noise from the handler.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

rmilner said:


> I have found that dogs trained without force, pressure, and electric collar are quite stable and reliable. I have found that they are excellent gundogs who meet and maintain a very high standard of work.


In my limited experience I have found that they will not stop hunting on a whistle and fail a lot of Senior test. But that is just my experience. Hopefully I will experience what you have in the future.


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

rmilner said:


> I have found that dogs trained without force, pressure, and electric collar are quite stable and reliable. I have found that they are excellent gundogs who meet and maintain a very high standard of work.


I'm sorry to keep asking this, but I'm honestly curious. How do you train without force and pressure? It is my understanding that even the most basic training tools, like your hands, a flat collar and leash, introduce SOME amount of pressure and force to a training situation.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Regarding the need to FF:

There was a very well known pointing dog trainer named Clyde Morton. He won the National Championship at Ames Plantation 11 times, a record that will likely stand forever. These dogs are big running, horseback field trial dogs that have to run hard and stylish for three hours, finishing just as strong as they start. They have to be rock solid steady to wing and shot....but only blanks are used, and no birds are killed....no retrieving is ever required.

Clyde Morton FF'd all of his dogs, even though they never had to retrieve. Every single one of them. Why? He said it made them "his". It's said...and I wish I could have seen it....that he could handle his dogs through a sheep panel at half a mile from horseback, just by body language.

You don't get the kind of class and style in numerous dogs that win 11 National Championships by hurting a dog or making them hate you or the training.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

rmilner said:


> I have found that dogs trained without force, pressure, and electric collar are quite stable and reliable. I have found that they are excellent gundogs who meet and maintain a very high standard of work.


Brother Robert,

If you were trying to place and even win today's American Derbies, Qualifyings or All-Age stakes, do you think you would go back to training using Force Fetch, and take up the Lardy-style use of an e-collar?

I'm thinking this may be one of the differentiators in the training methodologies is the understanding of the end-use and goals.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

whitefoot said:


> It is my understanding that even the most basic training tools, like your hands, a flat collar and leash, introduce SOME amount of pressure and force to a training situation.


That's my understanding too. Everybody needs to do whatever they're comfortable with and there is more than one way to skin a cat.



Don Corleone: .....Anyway, Signor Sollozzo, my no to you is final. I want to congratulate you on your new business and I’m sure you’ll do very well and good luck to you. Especially since your interests don’t conflict with mine. Thank you.​


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## honkerhavens (Dec 28, 2010)

i trained my pointers with ff . on a hunt we had a point on a covey of quail. the dogs picked up our birds. we were across the rosd from the truck which was behind a barn. when we loaded the dogs we were missing on of my dogs. after a minute here she come around the barn with a quail we did not know we had bagged. only ff would have done this.


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Brother Robert,
> 
> If you were trying to place and even win today's American Derbies, Qualifyings or All-Age stakes, do you think you would go back to training using Force Fetch, and take up the Lardy-style use of an e-collar?
> 
> I'm thinking this may be one of the differentiators in the training methodologies is the understanding of the end-use and goals.



Chris,
If I were going to go run field trials today (which I am not), I would definitely use positive training. The problems would lie mainly in developing training models and protocols to establish the behaviors. No one has developed them yet. I have seen marine mammals and zoo animals perform behaviors more complex and more difficult than the behaviors required of a field trial dog, so I know it can be done. The major issue would be getting "out of the box" enough to develop the models.


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## troy schwab (Mar 9, 2010)

rmilner said:


> Chris,
> If I were going to go run field trials today (which I am not), I would definitely use positive training. The problems would lie mainly in developing training models and protocols to establish the behaviors. No one has developed them yet. I have seen marine mammals and zoo animals perform behaviors more complex and more difficult than the behaviors required of a field trial dog, so I know it can be done. The major issue would be getting "out of the box" enough to develop the models.


So just to clarify...... IT HASNT BEEN DONE. Thanks..... next topic. LOL


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

rmilner said:


> Chris,
> If I were going to go run field trials today (which I am not), I would definitely use positive training. The problems would lie mainly in developing training models and protocols to establish the behaviors. No one has developed them yet. I have seen marine mammals and zoo animals perform behaviors more complex and more difficult than the behaviors required of a field trial dog, so I know it can be done. The major issue would be getting "out of the box" enough to develop the models.


Marine mammals and retrievers that are asked to perform to the levels we now expexct, are two entirely different things.

I'd be very interested to see what success you'd have employing your methodolgies, to be competative, in todays Field Trials or advance stake Hunt Test's except I already know the answer. 

Your philosophy on retreiver training has been used for decades before the advent of modern training techniques, including FF and E-collars. Your philosphy has since gone the way of the Dodo bird because it is not effective at producing a dog that can run and compete at todays standards. 

The proof is in the pudding. The best retreivers running today are trained using these modern methods............................what is it you don't understand about that???? 

Simply stating something over and over and over again does not make it a reality. Talk is cheap and as the saying goes..........."Show me da money" PLEASE!!!


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I know a feller who achieved SH with his dogs, using only 2 quadrant positive training.... But he spent a lot of time and money to get there. The last time I watched his dogs run they did pretty darn good, and naturally had great attitudes.

Now I train with a E-collar cause I don't have that level of patience, time or money! Thank you Evan Graham, Mike Lardy, Amy Dahl, etc..... 

As a side note, many great dogs I've watched are e-collar trained and are having a blast!!


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

And some have natural talent..No trainer in the background here..;-)











I believe finding a collar to fit, and pinching an ear on these rascals would be quite a chore ;-)


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## whitefoot (Aug 19, 2010)

Swampbilly said:


> I believe finding a collar to fit, and pinching an ear on these rascals would be quite a chore ;-)


I'm pretty sure I would revert to the old fashion slingshot approach.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

whitefoot said:


> I'm sorry to keep asking this, but I'm honestly curious. How do you train without force and pressure? It is my understanding that even the most basic training tools, like your hands, a flat collar and leash, introduce SOME amount of pressure and force to a training situation.


IMO you aren't training, you are negotiating.


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

Didn't any of you all watch Free Willy? You have to break them like a horse!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

labguy said:


> I'd be very interested to see what success you'd have employing your methodolgies, to be competative, in todays Field Trials or advance stake Hunt Test's except I already know the answer.
> 
> Your philosophy on retreiver training has been used for decades before the advent of modern training techniques, including FF and E-collars. Your philosphy has since gone the way of the Dodo bird because it is not effective at producing a dog that can run and compete at todays standards.


I'm sure you know I'm in agreement with your stance on modern methods. But I'd like to ask a favor. Robert believes in what he does and how he does it. We've been on different sides of many discussions. But I hope we can be respectful of his right to his opinions, and not be mean spirited about this.

I think it's very clear that most of us see this issue differently from the 'passive-only' folks. Count me at the top of that list. I just want to see it kept civil if we can. This remains the best board on the net.

Thanks,

Evan


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

ive sat back for 2 days and listened to everything and i think its time for me to chime in.i feel if you are going to train your dog to go to the big dance and win then yes force fetch is a must. but you better find the right person or all will come to a hault at your expense! if your like me and want a awesome dog that hunts hard and can compete at jh sh mh then no you dont need to force fetch. know one ever ask me the golden question, what are your goals? i respect everyones opinion here but we need to ask ourselves this first.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Know what guys? I don't see a whole lot of reason to ridicule the notion that using dolphin training models may work.

There are models used to teach a dolphin to take a sticky bomb, swim down to an enemy sub, stick it on the sub, come back and ring a bell when the job's done.

Now, I'm sure someone will want to partial quote the above and try to hang me with my own words. Please don't do that guys. ;-)

Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it is impossible. I personally have spent several dogs' lifetimes trying to get ideal performance out of my retrievers using non-e-collar methods. 

For me personally, the Lardy program has been literal paradigm shift. My reality as a trainer has completely shifted in a positive way. My level of dog performance has risen beyond my expectations. 

I will not spend my personal time trying to develop new training models. I will gladly allow myself and my dog to be students of the program that suits my goals. My current dog has significantly less pressure and significantly more confidence and improved performance than anyone I've had before. Thanks to Mr. Lardy and the many trainers who have preceded him to help evolve "the program" to where it is today.

It is pretty clear that Mr. Milner currently does not have the motivating driver to try and get him to develop such a training model for American Field Trials. Anything's possible and I'd imagine an NFC could be trained using some new methodologies that are more like teaching dolphins. 

I think it makes us look closed-minded to say "it hasn't been done therefore it is not possible". 

I won't be spending my time trying to develop such a model. I think that whoever does spend time trying to develop it, will spend lots and lots of R&D time getting beaten on the circuit. I'd imagine if they hung in there long enough, they or those who follow them, may succeed.

For me, the most valuable commodity that I have is TIME. I will spend my time going with what works for me.

To Shredder. If you are seeing value in FF and a "program" good for you. For Robert Milner and his friends and clients who love their dogs and what they do. Good for you.

To Bus, my first e-collar dog. I'm happy for you. I'm happy too.


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

So this is a test????

I hunt in 4-5 states every year. My dogs hunt all kinds of game under a variety of conditions. Usually there will be 6 dogs on the trailer. All are force fetched and have as much drive and enthusiasm as those who are not FF. This appears to be another FF stir the potpost started by someone hiding behind a alias. I have FF 8 dogs not counting my new pup Gunner following Evans Graham's program. Before one kicks FF have a look and tell me how bad is the dog is treated. I didn't FF so my dogs as good as yours....really!


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

troy schwab said:


> So just to clarify...... IT HASNT BEEN DONE. Thanks..... next topic. LOL



It has , just because you havent seen it or because Mr Milner hasnt done it dont be too sure there isnt someone else out there who hasnt produced all age dogs..and won



labguy said:


> Your philosophy on retreiver training has been used for decades before the advent of modern training techniques, including FF and E-collars. Your philosphy has since gone the way of the Dodo bird because it is not effective at producing a dog that can run and compete at todays standards.
> 
> The proof is in the pudding. The best retreivers running today are trained using these modern methods............................what is it you don't understand about that????
> 
> Simply stating something over and over and over again does not make it a reality. Talk is cheap and as the saying goes..........."Show me da money" PLEASE!!!


Here is your proof...My brother Clint doesnt train with a collar, and he doesnt FF....He produced AA dogs back in the 70's....and after a 30 yr hiatus to establish a medical practice has produced 5 AA dogs since 2001,including winning an Amateur and an Open (Canada)..to his credit, Clint has a career 70 + AA pts with 3 Open wins and 7 Amateur wins along with being a respected Open judge

Do we train like Milner...not even close...but just because you havent witnessed it doesnt mean it hasnt happened

and of course the next response is "well that's only one trainer"..but then you wanted proof


----------



## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

major shredder said:


> ive sat back for 2 days and listened to everything and i think its time for me to chime in.i feel if you are going to train your dog to go to the big dance and win then yes force fetch is a must. but you better find the right person or all will come to a hault at your expense! if your like me and want a awesome dog that hunts hard and can compete at jh sh mh then no you dont need to force fetch. know one ever ask me the golden question, what are your goals? i respect everyones opinion here but we need to ask ourselves this first.


 
Shredder, Lots of folks tried pretty hard to understand your questions and answer it. It gets pretty tough trying to read between the lines, interpret the words, see a picture in one's mind's eye, and then give an answer.

If folks aren't asking "the golden question", I'd suggest that you offer up details that you feel are important to getting the answer you solicit.

There's a story about "The boy who cried wolf". Next time, if you have a training question, I'd suggest you not sit back for two days waiting for someone to ask the golden question. Please offer up what you see as the critical details. 

I thought a dozen times or more to ask what your goals were, but I gave my initial response based upon my read of what you'd written. Frankly, I agree with my initial post. It looks like you have your mind made up. 

I hope you have fun with your dog, enjoy yourself, and you've got my phone number. If I can ever be of assistance, please give me a call.

Sincerely, Chris


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

major shredder said:


> ive sat back for 2 days and listened to everything and i think its time for me to chime in.i feel if you are going to train your dog to go to the big dance and win then yes force fetch is a must. but you better find the right person or all will come to a hault at your expense! if your like me and want a awesome dog that hunts hard and *can compete at jh sh mh then no you dont need to force fetch.* know one ever ask me the golden question, what are your goals? i respect everyones opinion here but we need to ask ourselves this first.


Having been on both ends of the AKC hunt tests as a handler and judge-I do not agree with this statement. I've seen many a "fabulous" hunting dog become overwhelmed by the excitement, smells, sounds and test atmosphere-which led to spitting out the bird, refusal to pick it back up, refusal to heel, freezing and all kinds of other wonderful "OMG My dog has never done that before!" moments. Hunting is very different then Hunt tests, until you've run some you just won't get that statement. Now have some of these dogs that I've seen do the above mentioned behaviors been force fetched? Probably-one mans FF is not necessarily anothers. I can say that my own experience-before and after FF-running JH SH and MH-before FF: I spent a lot of time begging my fabulous hunting dog to please pick up the rotten duck, get in the freezing water, bring it back out and heel. Please please please, oh pretty please-Jeez what a moron I was(and some will attest-still am). After FF-*never *had another issue like that. Now a days--keeping the dogs rear on the ground is my biggest problem....but that's another thread. I too-had a lovely bitch that was until the day she died a kick butt pheasant dog-never spit out a bird, always delivered to hand-course I too hunted with the collar so of course she came to me. I too, figured getting a JH, SH, MH would be a piece of cake. :razz: Well--I put myself out there and very quickly learned that dogs will humble you every chance they get. And also learned that hunting and hunt tests were..... oh lets just say-- a smidge different. Like no collar, no hollering, no touching....etc..... etc.... 

Get on out there and try it--you will find out where your holes are or not. maybe you are truly blessed with a once in a lifetime dog who will get you that Master right out the gate, 5 for 5 and do it in style-with never having been trained with any pressure, FF, CC, FTP or any stress at all. 

Good luck to you and have fun.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Know what guys? I don't see a whole lot of reason to ridicule the notion that using dolphin training models may work.
> 
> Now, I'm sure someone will want to partial quote the above and try to hang me with my own words. Please don't do that guys. ;-)


Chris..I'm quoting the above but it's not to hang ya'..it's to apologize if I went out of bounds..

I've got nuthin' but respect for Mr. Milner as an man, and as a trainer..I believe a big part of _who_ you are as a person..comes out in your training..and all I can see is good in his accomplishments..
I did want to point out that he is in fact, Spot On in a huge respect in the training of sea animals..Can't pinch an ear, can't size a collar big enough..That said..there's only _one _ way to train 'em.....yeap..low pressure/reps..

Was hoping to get a chuckle out of him as well..Guess it backfired..my apologies to the forum, and to Mr. Milner if this went the wrong direction....

Chris..that's a Killer Whale..an Orca..not a dolphin!..


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Know what guys? I don't see a whole lot of reason to ridicule the notion that using dolphin training models may work.
> 
> There are models used to teach a dolphin to take a sticky bomb, swim down to an enemy sub, stick it on the sub, come back and ring a bell when the job's done.
> 
> ...


just the opposite im with mr. milner and his friends on this one


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Shredder, Lots of folks tried pretty hard to understand your questions and answer it. It gets pretty tough trying to read between the lines, interpret the words, see a picture in one's mind's eye, and then give an answer.
> 
> If folks aren't asking "the golden question", I'd suggest that you offer up details that you feel are important to getting the answer you solicit.
> 
> ...


no one cried wolf here ,my question was simple , why force fetch my dog you need to go back to page one and put you glasses on ive always been with mr milner and his friends !got it.


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

your right chris i do have my mind made up it is to not force fetch my dog,anyone that reads this can clearly see this!there was alot of advice on why i should but i stand my ground with mr. milner and his friend! there was even a post that said "evan your wasting your time " before you make remarks like" the boy that cried wolf" you should get your facts straight! this will be the last time i ever come to this site. when people make fun of mr. milners point of view it was time for me to leave. to all the people that believe in mr. milners method i wish you nothing but the best.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Watch the door knob.

Sometimes it sneaks up on folks regards

Bubba


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

major shredder said:


> to all the people that believe in mr. milners method i wish you nothing but the best.


..Thank-you Shredder...assuming this will be your last post, I wish you the best as well..good luck with your pup..


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Watch the door knob.
> 
> Sometimes it sneaks up on folks regards
> 
> Bubba


 
hooooolllldddddd!!!!!


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

major shredder said:


> your right chris i do have my mind made up it is to not force fetch my dog,anyone that reads this can clearly see this!there was alot of advice on why i should but i stand my ground with mr. milner and his friend! there was even a post that said "evan your wasting your time " before you make remarks like" the boy that cried wolf" you should get your facts straight! this will be the last time i ever come to this site. when people make fun of mr. milners point of view it was time for me to leave. to all the people that believe in mr. milners method i wish you nothing but the best.


Good luck with your training, I mean voo doo.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> It has , just because you havent seen it or because Mr Milner hasnt done it dont be too sure there isnt someone else out there who hasnt produced all age dogs..and won
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was/am fully aware that some dogs reach the top levels without FF or E collar...............it's just a very rare occurance today to the point of being an anomoly.

It's a credit to good and patient training when people like your brother can accomplish something most others (including myself) would never be able to do without these modern methodolgies.

I didn't mean for my comments to sound disparaging and I apologize to you and Mr. Milner if they came across that way.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

hmmmmmm......10 bucks says that is not the last post from the major. I smell a rat, a planted rat.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

I dont deserve an apology but Mr Milner deserves a certain amount of respect even if you dont agree with his form of training


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Shredder,

Thanks for your brief time spent on RTF. 

You have my phone number, if you ever want to call me, you know where to find me.

Sometimes folks have been a little leary of spending too much time responding to a new registrant, thinking they are wasting their time oon that effort. The general feeling in the past is that new folks need to be around and earn their way into the fray. I've tried pretty hard, fairly successfully, to try and get folks to welcome all new registrants openly, to give them the benefit of the doubt, and to go ahead and treat them as they'd like to be treated. Frankly, this one puts me a step or two backwards in that progression.

I wholeheartedly subscribe to the Golden Rule, which is the culture I try to have RTF maintain: Treat others as you'd like to be treated.

I've tried to get folks to treat Mr. Milner that way. I sure hope you will acknowledge that through both public and private exchanges, I've tried to treat you that way.

Frankly, some of the RTF regulars are likely a bit more jaded on "new folks" as a result of the way this one turned out.

I wish you and your dog the best. Your account will remain active, so when and if you choose to come back, you're welcome. 

I'd suggest, again, that if you ask a question, you not prop folks up with a "test question" waiting for them to push the magic button. If you have a magic button that you want someone to understand, in order to make their feedback more meaningful, please help us see it clearly... It's always helpful when those posing questions help us to help them.

Respectfully yours in sportsmanship and conservation,

Chris


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

BonMallari said:


> I dont deserve an apology but Mr Milner deserves a certain amount of respect even if you dont agree with his form of training


OK- I'm all ears

Let's hear why.


Especially in light of all the trashing that he has on record of the folks that are actually having some success.


Fill yore hand pilgrim regards

Bubba


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Mr Milner

I went back and reread the posts that referenced or quote yours. I don't think they were disrespectful of your position. If I could get the results I need in a hunting dog using a "soft" method I would and so would most others. In the mean time I am using Evan Graham's methodology with very good results. This is by far the easist FF and CC that I have experienced. Is there pressure,yep. Following the program my pup is acting like the happy dog I see on his DVD. FF does not have to be a grusome experience. 

If Shredder leaves it's his loss. His post was a set up IMO and a lot of good effort went into trying to help him.


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## Justin Allen (Sep 29, 2009)

I am having a hard time taking anyone serious that just compared training working dogs to that of a whale. Whales live in the water for crying out loud!! 

I feel like training a soft dog with Mr. Milner's tactics is entirely possible, I would never want one but still it seems possible. Take a hard charger from a field trial line and I bet you have some trouble negoating with it. That is my opinion on the matter, and I will throw out the disclaimer that I'm a total newbie to training dogs. VooooooooooDoooooooo


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Bubba said:


> OK- I'm all ears
> 
> Let's hear why.
> 
> ...


are you sure you're not mixing up Mr Milner with another trainer that was trash talking and touting his own form of training methods...I have never read anything like that from Mr Milner...

I dont agree with Mr Milner's way of training (with what little knowledge I have of it ) but just because it varies from ours doesnt mean I dont respect what he does...Some of his theories I support, some I dont...kind of what makes the world go round


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Are you chitting me?

From his webpage:



> During a span of 30 years I have trained over 1,500 dogs, and have had extensive exposure to Field Trials, Hunting Retriever Tests, AKC Hunt Tests, and many, many gun dogs. During this time I have become aware of some underlying trends in the retriever population. Our dogs are getting worse. Our breeding selection process is tending to produce too high a percentage of hyperactive, uncooperative dogs.
> 
> Thirty years ago years ago a puppy from the the Field trial breeding pool would have had about a 70% to 80% probability of being a calm soft dog that the average hunter could train and control. Today a puppy form the Field trial and Hunting Retriever breeding pools has a 40% to 50% probability of being calm enough and cooperative enough that the average hunter can train him and keep him under control.



This is one of the more moderate quotes

Trained over 1500 dogs- well maybe I guess sorta kinda. Have ANY of them actually been successful in competition? Please to name them here....... Go ahead use the whole backside of the BB.

Our dogs are getting worse? 

Its all a matter of perspective I guess

A crowded elevator smells different to a midget regards

Bubba


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Pals said:


> hmmmmmm......10 bucks says that is not the last post from the major. I smell a rat, a planted rat.


I completely agree. It seems to be go around on other boards. Negative or positive it is still controversy and marketing.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

major shredder said:


> ive sat back for 2 days and listened to everything and i think its time for me to chime in.i feel if you are going to train your dog to go to the big dance and win then yes force fetch is a must. but you better find the right person or all will come to a hault at your expense! *if your like me and want a awesome dog that hunts hard and can compete at jh sh mh then no you dont need to force fetch*. know one ever ask me the golden question, what are your goals? i respect everyones opinion here but we need to ask ourselves this first.


 DuBay is a handful, in a good way. I actually was the first to breed to him. I predict you will change your mind once you start actually running HT.


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

final thoughts, there seems to be controversey among yourselves on what is right and what is wrong. i was more than happy to be a pawn in this game of check mate on mr. milners behalf. if you learn to respect others views your sport will only get stronger.if you fail to do this your sport will parish!


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## smillerdvm (Jun 3, 2006)

BonMallari said:


> are you sure you're not mixing up Mr Milner with another trainer that was trash talking and touting his own form of training methods...I have never read anything like that from Mr Milner...
> 
> I dont agree with Mr Milner's way of training (with what little knowledge I have of it ) but just because it varies from ours doesnt mean I dont respect what he does...Some of his theories I support, some I dont...kind of what makes the world go round


Spot on Mr BonMallari. I have been around dog games for decades. and I am amazed at how many people, apparently new to these retriever games, seem have adopted a know it all attitude about some people in this thread. They have a few DVD's and a computer and now they know everything.

People like Swampbilly and others try desperately to act knowledgable, oblivious to the fact that many of their posts clearly reveal the opposite.
In spite of my years around this game, I find it more advantageous to read and learn, as there is always someone who knows more than my limited depth of understanding

I had to post on this thread when the know it alls started slinging arrows at Mr Milner for his purported lack of success and class.

I wonder how many of these know it alls are aware that their internet hero Evan Graham has never put a title on any of the 100's of dogs he has trained. In fact if Mr Shredder were to take his non FF dog and get one measly point in a Field Trial he would instantly surpass Mr Grahams lifetime total with 100's of dogs and 30 plus years.

Doesn't the Bible have something about the worship of false idols?


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

major shredder said:


> your right chris i do have my mind made up it is to not force fetch my dog,anyone that reads this can clearly see this!there was alot of advice on why i should but i stand my ground with mr. milner and his friend! there was even a post that said "evan your wasting your time " before you make remarks like" the boy that cried wolf" you should get your facts straight! this will be the last time i ever come to this site. when people make fun of mr. milners point of view it was time for me to leave. to all the people that believe in mr. milners method i wish you nothing but the best.


 
6:51 PM Central Time...you departed the site.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

major shredder said:


> final thoughts, there seems to be controversey among yourselves on what is right and what is wrong. i was more than happy to be a pawn in this game of check mate on mr. milners behalf. if you learn to respect others views your sport will only get stronger.if you fail to do this your sport will parish!


10:23PM, You're back.

Shredder, this behavior really does represent "the boy who cried wolf".

More than one of us has tried respectfully to reach out, offer you heartfelt, sincere advice, and try to be friendly.

I've gone back and read your progression of posts since logging in here. Sometimes what should have been more obvious to us, is not always readily seen. Sometimes this is because we want to take words at face value. 

The fact appears to be that you were baiting folks all along, trying to set up an argument only to in the end defend your position of choice.

Please use the resource right going forward, if you are to choose to use the resource.

Otherwise, feel free to stick to your original plan from a few hours ago.

I truly wish you and your dog the best regardless of your chosen training methods or end-uses for your retriever. If RTF is not a resource of value to you, so be it. 

Chris


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## rjambar (Nov 27, 2010)

As a new user to this site I (in complete ignorance of the terminology and the dispute) asked someone to explain ff to me. I was slightly taken aback by some of the posters wondering if I had "stirred the pot" on purpose. After reading this thread I can understand why the more experienced members of this site would wonder about my intentions. 
But I received some excellent advice and hearfelt help form the wonderful people here in that thread and left it with a basic undrestanding of what FF is. In the almost two months I have been a member I have truly enjoyed every minute I spend on RTF learning about the retreiver lifestyle and the personalities of the people you meet here. Even though I had some bad luck in one regard (Chris you know what I am talking about) I wouldn't trade it for anything. 

As a newbie I wish to pass along this to the "older" members. Please don't allow people such as shredder, who obviously have an agenda, to sour you against new members. Thank you to each and everyone of you, even those whose ideas I don't agree with, your heartfelt assistance and ideas make this site what it is. If we all agreed, it would be pretty boring! lol.
Keep up the good work Chris, don't get discouraged, you really are providing a service.

Rodney


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Shredder,
> 
> Thanks for your brief time spent on RTF.
> 
> ...


chris ,again back up and read what you wrote , i have recieved many pm,s asking me to stay. i thought it would be best to give my final thoughts! you said i was welcome, make up your mind, if i was your dog i would be confused!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

major shredder said:


> chris ,again back up and read what you wrote , i have recieved many pm,s asking me to stay. i thought it would be best to give my final thoughts! you said i was welcome, make up your mind, if i was your dog i would be confused!


You're welcome here. But if you are going to come back, please don't whiz on my carpet anymore.

If you want to be here, please use the resource right and respect those of us who have tried sincerely and honestly to help you.

Are you still confused? 

If so, please let me know.


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## major shredder (Jan 8, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> You're welcome here. But if you are going to come back, please don't whiz on my carpet anymore.
> 
> If you want to be here, please use the resource right and respect those of us who have tried sincerely and honestly to help you.
> 
> ...


the ones trying to help are the ones that send me a pm. read my final thoughts again and again the controversy is among yourselves im just a pawn


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

smillerdvm said:


> Spot on Mr BonMallari. I have been around dog games for decades. and I am amazed at how many people, apparently new to these retriever games, seem have adopted a know it all attitude about some people in this thread. They have a few DVD's and a computer and now they know everything.
> 
> People like Swampbilly and others try desperately to act knowledgable, oblivious to the fact that many of their posts clearly reveal the opposite.
> In spite of my years around this game, I find it more advantageous to read and learn, as there is always someone who knows more than my limited depth of understanding
> ...


I hope you're not painting all of us in this thread with the same broad brush.

I've broken bread with Robert Milner and his lovely wife Susan more than once. I've been a guest in their home more than once. I've hunted over Robert's beloved and now deceased Jake pup. I took the cover photo for his most recent reprint of his book.

Frankly, I've been as confused and baffled by the appearance of this Irv/Shredder the new hunt test guy as anyone. 

While we're referencing false idols, let's not rule out false newbies hiding behind aliases with veiled indications of the help they pretend to seek, versus the foregone conclusions that they lurk to create undue drama and conflict over.

Is it OK for me to be a buddy of Robert's while still thinking Lardy is the real deal? He does have a record for the most NFC dogs...or at least he did. We're not calling MIke Lardy a false idol are we?

Thanks, Chris


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

major shredder said:


> the ones trying to help are the ones that send me a pm. read my final thoughts again and again the controversy is among yourselves im just a pawn


HI Irv,

I'm not sure that "pawn" would the the single word I'd use to describe your role thus far on RTF.

While you're referencing your RTF private message cache, why not go back and look at who was one of the first people to welcome you here, provide their personal phone number, and offer to help however they could with your stated interest in getting help with your dog? (That would be me)

The choice is yours. Please use the resource wisely. If you choose to move on and discontinue your use of RTF, that's fine too.

I wish you the best of success and happiness in your retriever journey.

Chris Atkinson


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2011)

Chris, I was good. I deleted what I had typed.


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

Haven’t llooked at the forum for a while. When I submitted an earlier response to the original question, I thought that the author was genuinely in need of some information on FF. Maybe, and it now seems likely, this thread was intended to become a basis for the age old debate between e-collar and non e-collar, or force vs. non-force trainers.
Debate is good because it makes people think. All of us, as dog trainers, need to understand that the question and debate is not about right or wrong, rather it’s about what information can be provided so you can best choose which type of training program is the best fit for your goals, your personality, and your dog.
I reviewed most of the posts tonight before I wrote this, and one thing that puzzles me is the originator’s response on one of the early posts where he points out that he reinforces the “hold” command with a “nick”. That tells me that he has chosen to use the e-collar as one of his training tools. Given that, I’m having a difficult time understanding later posts where he relates his success training his friend’s dogs using only positive/non-pressure type training methods, as well as referring to other dogs/trainers he knows, who have had great success using only positive/non-pressure training techniques. 
The e-collar, by it’s very nature, puts pressure on a dog. If he uses one, then pressure is being applied so he’s not using only positive reinforcement and a program devoid of pressure, yet this is what he advocates. It’s also hard to understand how a dog, which is said to have NOT been FF’d, can be nicked, (shocked) with an e-collar to reinforce the “hold” command, and have this same dog understand that the positive things that have happened in the past when retrieving outweigh the electric shock (pressure) he receives when dropping or loosely holding a dummy. As I tried to make clear in my previous response, if this is what is happening, the trainer is walking a very fine line, and problems are imminent.
I believe both types of programs are good. I know Mr.Milner is a very knowledgeable and accomplished trainer, and we can learn a lot from him. I know that Mr. Lardy is a very knowledgeable an accomplished trainer as well. I think Evan has done a great service for all of us by providing extensive, thoughtful and useful documentation and explanation for a proven, complete retriever training program. 
If your goal is to have a good hunting dog, hard work and time spent training, are way more important than which type training program you choose. Just make sure you’ve done some homework and have a training regimen, that you are following.
One thing that hunt tests may have done is to blur the lines between the two types of competitions. 
To be clear, if you want to compete at the hunt test level, and are very dedicated and have a lot of time to spend to achieve your goals, you can expect a high level of success using a non-e-collar/no-pressure type training program.
On the other hand, if you wish to be competitive at the national levels of AKC Retriever Trails, and are very dedicated and have a lot of time to spend to achieve your goals, you should follow a program similar to those who have previously been most successful in that venue; (read Lardy, Rorem, Farmer and others).
There will occasionally be trainer/dog teams who defy the odds, who succeed at any level with the training program of their choosing, regardless of which direction they go; but they will be the exception, not the rule.
This is simply intended as sound advice, provided as requested.


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

smillerdvm said:


> People like Swampbilly and others try desperately to act knowledgable, oblivious to the fact that many of their posts clearly reveal the opposite.


Respectfully..I think maybe your bloomers are on too tight, ..Step outside for some fresh air my friend... 
If you have some kind of a "problem" with any of my posts in regards to training dogs, and/or disagree, and believe it's wrong..You should expound on your more, vast, knowledge, and offer your opinion..(Just as others on this board do). To date..you've not done that...
My suggestion to you, would be to complain to the proper ears on this forum about your concerns, instead of regurgitating an opinionative spew of garbage, nonsense and fingerpointing.. ;-)



smillerdvm said:


> Doesn't the Bible have something about the worship of false idols?


..I think you really need some air my friend...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

major shredder said:


> ....you need to go back to page one and put you glasses on *ive always been with mr milner and his friends* !got it.





major shredder said:


> your right chris *i do have my mind made up* it is to not force fetch my dog,anyone that reads this can clearly see this!......


 
we been trolled
shoulda seen it...
coulda known it...
yet, the fact is...
we been trolled


.


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## TN_LAB (Jul 26, 2008)

major shredder said:


> know [sic] one ever ask [sic] me the golden question, what are your goals? i respect everyones [sic] opinion here but we need to ask ourselves this first.


OK...in case it got buried in the 11+ pages, let me ask: *What are your goals?*


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Ken Bora said:


> we been trolled
> shoulda seen it...
> coulda known it...
> yet, the fact is...
> ...



Who is the *WE * you are refering to ?
an "incestuous" group regards
john


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

Swampbilly said:


> I enjoy sitting back and
> 
> 
> 
> ...


..TN LAB..here it is ..


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

This thread's OP is a self licking ice cream cone! 

I say this with a sincere heartfelt sympathy for ya!


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

major shredder said:


> im new to this site, and interested in running my dog in hunt tests.please go easy on me when i ask the question( why do we have to ff our dogs?). am i missing the boat on this issue? my dog is 14 months old and retrieve to hand every time. this was his 1st year pheasant hunting and did not drop one bird, there were alot off cripples(im not the best shot ill admit).but even in training with the old pheasants he is rock solid. i understand during the tests the birds get used and abused! every dog has picked up the same sloppy wet duck and retrieved it to hand.my dog cant be the exception to the rule, what am i missing and am i behind the 8 ball at this point?


Read this I think it will answer a lot of your questions!
Its long but it is worth every minute of the time spent

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=43951

Then if you are still not convinced, by all means do as you will, after all it is your dog.

john


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Read this I thinK it will answer a lot of your queations!
> 
> http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=43951
> 
> ...


Bob, 

He's long gone and not coming back....

- Tom


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

john fallon said:


> Read this I think it will answer a lot of your questions!
> Its long but it is worth every minute of the time spent
> 
> http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=43951
> ...


P.S. John, I mean Bob:

I have a hard time reading posts when the guy doesn't space paragraphs and use good punctuation for something that long.

But I still, to this day, utilize James B. Spencer's Force Breaking Chapter from his book TRAINING RETRIEVERS FOR THE MARSHES AND MEADOWS to Force Break dogs.

It's a pretty good way to go. Probably does have an extra step or so that can be skipped (ie...using a "buck" before using a bumper), but it has worked fine for me and I like the results. It seems to mesh perfectly with the Lardy stuff.

Chris, Oops...I mean Tom


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Bob,
> 
> He's long gone and not coming back....
> 
> - Tom


Tom, 

Thanks for the heads up . Perhaps the article will help others to understand.

Bob


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

This forum will become even better when we all must use our real names.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

wojo said:


> This forum will become even better when we all must use our real names.


Hi Ed,

We have valuable, contributing members of this forum who have valid reasons for not using their real names. I have considered the notion of "grandfathering" them in, and requiring real names going forward.

The fact is, it becomes a policing thing if we require "real names". So I'd rather demand that a cultural standard be adhered to, regardless of what someone uses as a screen name.

I honestly believe that many folks put less credibility in someone going by a "handle" until that person proves themselves through repeat behavior and repeat contribution.

Thanks, Chris


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

smillerdvm said:


> Spot on Mr BonMallari. I have been around I had to post on this thread when the know it alls started slinging arrows at Mr Milner for his purported lack of success and class.
> 
> I wonder how many of these know it alls are aware that their internet hero Evan Graham has never put a title on any of the 100's of dogs he has trained. In fact if Mr Shredder were to take his non FF dog and get one measly point in a Field Trial he would instantly surpass Mr Grahams lifetime total with 100's of dogs and 30 plus years.
> 
> ...


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

wojo said:


> smillerdvm said:
> 
> 
> > Spot on Mr BonMallari. I have been around I had to post on this thread when the know it alls started slinging arrows at Mr Milner for his purported lack of success and class.
> ...


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Evan Graham has undoubtedly contributed a great deal to this forum. Nevertheless, the standard on this forum has been for the 3 years I've been around - "What titles have you put on your dog?" And, I see no reason to except anyone if that is the standard that the forum wants to maintain.

Perhaps, the standard should be reviewed?

Snick


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Snick, where did you find this standard?


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

Titles, smitles.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

It was printed on the napkins at his last pity party.

Evan don't have a lot of titles but he doesn't make his way but dissing others work.

Let the troll drown regards

Bubba


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## Wayne Beck (Mar 22, 2010)

smillerdvm said:


> I wonder how many of these know it alls are aware that their internet hero Evan Graham has never put a title on any of the 100's of dogs he has trained. In fact if Mr Shredder were to take his non FF dog and get one measly point in a Field Trial he would instantly surpass Mr Grahams lifetime total with 100's of dogs and 30 plus years.
> 
> Doesn't the Bible have something about the worship of false idols?


So with this logic are you saying fred hassen is a better trainer than evan graham?


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Bubba said:


> It was printed on the napkins at his last pity party.
> 
> Evan don't have a lot of titles but he doesn't make his way but dissing others work.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not sure what titles Evan has. Is it true that he has none to offer? At least he sticks his neck out and makes a contribution to the dialogue as opposed to say, sitting back and waiting for a chance to make a snide remark.

Who's the troll?

Snick


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Howard N said:


> Snick, where did you find this standard?


I'm a bit surprised by your post, Howard. But, you're pretty respectful, so I'll respond.

It seems to me that many times when someone offers a different point of view, eventually somebody always raises the ' where are your titles' arguement. There was even a poll about that...though I don't remember the eventual outcome.

Whatever the standard for credibility is, it should be applied to everyone. We do ask that our dogs maintain a standard...do we not?

Chuck


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## wojo (Jun 29, 2008)

Snicklefritz said:


> wojo said:
> 
> 
> > Evan Graham has undoubtedly contributed a great deal to this forum. Nevertheless, the standard on this forum has always been - what titles have you put on your dog. And, I see no reason to except anyone if that is the standard that the forum wants to maintain.
> ...


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## RetrieversONLINE (Nov 24, 2005)

It’s Friday night after my first week south for winter training and no recent time for RTF. So, therefore, I have missed this quite amazing thread that has developed displaying the best and the worst of RTF. It epitomizes a bunch of sincere folks trying to contribute and be helpful but the usual collection of trolls and pot-stirrers. 

The most recent diversion about credentials is not unexpected. I have often said that you need a sophisticated sieve to sort out the wheat from the chaff on Internet Information. BUT, I have never said that you need to have achieved titles in order to be a major contributor. 


Some of the very best posts that I have seen here have been by new trainers. Seldom are they biased by narrow, or traditional thinking and often they introduce thoughtful lateral thinking. I’m no fan of the newbie who say, “I am training my first dog and I found that X=Y so I think you should do X= Y with your dog!” 



BUT, there IS a HUGE place here for the input of all.
How many of you know that Rex Carr who fathered 90% of current field trial training techniques never made a NFC or even FC as a handler? We have trainers, teachers, trolls, tricksters amongst us. In some weird way they all contribute so let’s not set up an arbitrary *standard* of credentials.


The “Buyer Beware” caveat applies here.

Cheers (from the home of assorted Field Champions and National Champions but trying to learn every day like everybody else!).


PS. It’s so great to back in the saddle again-horse and dog alike!


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

RetrieversONLINE said:


> It’s Friday night after my first week south for winter training and no recent time for RTF. So, therefore, I have missed this quite amazing thread that has developed displaying the best and the worst of RTF. It epitomizes a bunch of sincere folks trying to contribute and be helpful but the usual collection of trolls and pot-stirrers.
> 
> The most recent diversion about credentials is not unexpected. I have often said that you need a sophisticated sieve to sort out the wheat from the chaff on Internet Information. BUT, I have never said that you need to have achieved titles in order to be a major contributor.
> 
> ...


 (emphasis mine)

Couldn't agree with you more...thanks for your support 

Snick


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> I'm a bit surprised by your post, Howard. But, you're pretty respectful, so I'll respond.
> 
> It seems to me that many times when someone offers a different point of view, eventually somebody always raises the ' where are your titles' arguement. There was even a poll about that...though I don't remember the eventual outcome.
> 
> ...


Chuck, 

The standard I was referencing was a cultural standard. In other words, kind treatment of others, and treating others as you yourself would like to be treated.

We all get emotional and make mistakes. You and I have certainly done it on here. Just about everyone that's posted here has. But the standard should be for folks to use the board reasonably and try to address others properly.

When folks start discussing or asking questions around performance, how to train a dog to reach a certain performance, or how to successfully navigate a challenge, credentials can become important. There are valid times to ask for credentials, track records and accomplishments.

If you were going to ask someone to tile your floor, hire someone to teach your kid piano lessons, or train your dog, credentials do become important. When companies make hires, they have stringent selection processes that utilize metrics to gauge credentials and quantifiable accomplishments.

When someone utilizes the RTF resource to try and gain knowledge and ideas, credentials and accomplishments are reasonable to question.

If I or the general culture of RTF were to discourage inquiry and communication of quantifiable, verifiable credentials and accomplishments, the overal value of RTF would be greatly diminished as a resource. 

I know you are here largely as an advocate for training without FF and without a collar. But that does not make it wrong for others to pursue excellence with a more proven methodology.

Chris


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Chuck,
> 
> The standard I was referencing was a cultural standard. In other words, kind treatment of others, and treating others as you yourself would like to be treated.
> 
> ...


 (emphasis mine)

I agree. But, we should not forget the possibility that someone without '...verifiable credentials and accomplishments...' could actually be on to sumpin' new. And, they deserve to be considered for the _soundness of their thinking_...even when it is contrary to the conventional wisdom. If not, then nothing will every change, and the possibility of doing it better ceases to exist.

Just cause it's new, or just different, doesn't mean it's wrong.

If I haven't said so before, have a great new year...everyone 

Good Night All,

Snick


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## GLFLYER (Jun 29, 2004)

My wife wishes to post a reply, Please give me some latitude here, from Lori: All I want to know is; where does your retriever sleep? My FF'd, CC'd girls sleep in my **#[email protected] bed. Enough said.

Gary...uhhh Lori


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Snicklefritz said:


> (emphasis mine)
> 
> I agree. But, we should not forget the possibility that someone without '...verifiable credentials and accomplishments...' could actually be on to sumpin' new. And, they deserve to be considered for the _soundness of their thinking_...even when it is contrary to the conventional wisdom. If not, then nothing will every change, and the possibility of doing it better ceases to exist.
> 
> ...


At one time folks thought Columbus was nuts for thinking the earth was round.

Still, when that contractor or piano teacher has an off the wall, unheard-of approach that he's not yet proven, but it sounds good in theory, it makes sense that the customer would ask for credentials, evidence, references, proof...

Same here. If a trainer comes on here, an internet board with new ideas, who cares whether folks believe in him or not? The fact is that soon enough, if his theory holds any water at all, he'll HAVE THE CREDENTIAL. If it is a valid idea, the proof will show in the pudding. If you're the trainer with the good idea, why worry about convincing others until your method has proof? If you're the person seeking help, and wanting ideas on how to train, it makes sense to not use your own dog as a guinea pig and go with a method proven to deliver...therefore it makes sense for the "customer" receiving training information, to seek validation of the methods offered.

Pleasant dreams and Happy New Year Chuck.

Chris


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

rmilner said:


> My standard of an excellence in a gundog is a dog with excellent manners and one that collects all the birds with minimum help and noise from the handler.


Sounds like an excellent hunting partner, but can it play the games?
Again apples & oranges



> I wonder how many of these know it alls are aware that their internet hero Evan Graham has never put a title on any of the 100's of dogs he has trained


But how many of his clients have put titles on those dogs? Dennis beat me to what I was going to say. Some are great innovators, and come up with new ideas, others are great writers and are able to put into print what others have developed. Is one more important than the other?


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## Swampbilly (May 25, 2010)

This thread has lead me to ask an important question for everyone here....

I'd like to know if someone needs to have some Blue in the trophy case to post or contribute here. Sometimes I feel like that could be the idea..and sometimes I don't feel that way. I've asked several questions since I've been here, but not many responses...The Blue has evaded me..I've never persued it..that's all changed now, I'm gearing up to have some fun..

The way I see it..you have to "train for the game", and if you don't know how the games are played..you can't train for 'em...I've learned alot from Lardy, and have a friend who used to trial who has given me alot of insight..I've also learned quite a bit from a lot of YOU..and have been attending lots of HT's 

There's a time to keep ones' mouth shut and ears open..I try to practice the ole' addage.. 

Tell you the truth..I luv this place..Lots of precious knowledge floatin' around here.. I think the integrety of this forum is priceless...

I hope that if a newbie guy/gal comes along and wants to know a decent way to approach Gun/bird intro, things of that nature, that it's ok for me to contribute.._even without the Blue_..


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## rmilner (Dec 27, 2005)

tom said:


> Sounds like an excellent hunting partner, but can it play the games?
> Again apples & oranges
> 
> 
> ...


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

Swampbilly said:


> This thread has lead me to ask an important question for everyone here....
> 
> I'd like to know if someone needs to have some Blue in the trophy case to post or contribute here. Sometimes I feel like that could be the idea..and sometimes I don't feel that way.


I sure hope not, because it would eliminate about 80-90% of US here on the RTF...but sometimes when the status quo or someone with expertise is questioned or challenged the "show me your titles/resume card" is thrown out, all the while knowing that challenger doesnt have a titled dog or blue ribbon to answer the challenge

Does it mean that the newbie/afficianado doesnt have the right to challenge the premise ?.... of course not

As Dennis Voigt alluded to, you dont really want some newbie with their first dog telling you how to execute a concept that they read about or just learned earlier in the week from their pro..

IMHO a person's credibilty is earned and readers can decide for themselves whom they trust for information...but telling someone that they lack the credentials to challenge a premise is equally ludicrous


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

BonMallari said:


> I sure hope not, because it would eliminate about 80-90% of US here on the RTF...but sometimes when the status quo or someone with expertise is questioned or challenged the "show me your titles/resume card" is thrown out, all the while knowing that challenger doesnt have a titled dog or blue ribbon to answer the challenge
> 
> Does it mean that the newbie/afficianado doesnt have the right to challenge the premise ?.... of course not
> 
> ...


Well said :grin:


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

rmilner said:


> tom said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like an excellent hunting partner, but can it play the games?
> ...


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## tom (Jan 4, 2003)

rmilner said:


> tom said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like an excellent hunting partner, but can it play the games?
> ...


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> As Dennis Voigt alluded to, you dont really want some newbie with their first dog telling you how to execute a concept that they read about or just learned earlier in the week from their pro..
> 
> IMHO a person's credibilty is earned and readers can decide for themselves whom they trust for information...but telling someone that they lack the credentials to challenge a premise is equally ludicrous


Yup, experience training dogs and dog accomplishments count, but in the long run, it's going to be the quality of the posts that matter here the most.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Howard N said:


> Yup, experience training dogs and dog accomplishments count, but in the long run, it's going to be the quality of the posts that matter here the most.


Yes!!!! But, that doesn't neccesarily include me :shock:

Chuck


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Maybe it does exactly as he said it. It could be a differing of "quality". HPW


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

I'm with Ken Bora. We all started from the begining and part of the learning process is asking questions and the smart person will question the answers. 

I think FF is the wrong term to use. I think a lot of trainers use more praise than force when FF. I trained a lab last year who had never received any praise. His owner didn't like him as he felt he was too soft. He was soft and I had to take it easy and when the dog did it right he got praise. I was using the toe pinch method. One day - this true - I opened the kennel to start the next session and the dog disappeared at a full run. He blasted right to the building where I do the so called FF. When I arrived he had jumped up onto the bench and was sitting there wagging his tail with a bumper in his mouth. I figure this was the first time he ever had received praise. I purchased the dog and sold him to a great home and the couple love to hunt birds. 

I've gone to U.K. Labs. I've purchased three from Scotlannd and they are almost ready to start training. I'm going to have to change my methods as the pups are birdy as anything, quarter naturally, have super soft mouths and deliver to hand. All with out any training at all. They are wild around birds but very gentle around your feet. They have a willingness to please like I've never seen. Oh yeah, their marking is just abuot perfect. Looks like all I have to do is make them steady.


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

Wow, sounds like you’ve found a great source for puppies. I’m interested in finding out more.
Are all 3 from the same litter, or are these traits you describe present in 3 different breedings that your pups came from? How did you find them, and purchase them? Were they shipped to you from Scotland? Also, you mention that they are almost ready to start training. What determines when it’s time to start training?
Whose book/programs do you follow?
Sorry for all the questions but it sounds like you’ve really got something here.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

major shredder said:


> chris ,again back up and read what you wrote , i have recieved many pm,s asking me to stay. i thought it would be best to give my final thoughts! you said i was welcome, make up your mind, if i was your dog i would be confused!


If you were his dog you would NOT be confused,you would be FF'd


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

minnducker said:


> Wow, sounds like you’ve found a great source for puppies. I’m interested in finding out more.
> Are all 3 from the same litter, or are these traits you describe present in 3 different breedings that your pups came from? How did you find them, and purchase them? Were they shipped to you from Scotland? Also, you mention that they are almost ready to start training. What determines when it’s time to start training?
> Whose book/programs do you follow?
> Sorry for all the questions but it sounds like you’ve really got something here.


Two males from the same litter, 4 mths old. One female 1 yr old. I deal with Ian Christie from Fife Scotland. Check his web site squareclosedogs. Shipped right from Scotland direct to Calgary. 

For the 1st few months I work on the come command. Whatever they are doing coming to me has to be more fun. So the pups learn to fly to to me. Then I give them birds, birds and birds. I live in country with no one around for miles so they get lots of walks on the property and learn how to be dogs. I try not to interfer with anything except to keep them out of danger. When they are 8 mths to 1 yr old I start the formal FF program but I won't have to with these guys. Honest, they come out of the box already trained. I'll slowly work on getting them steady which shouldn't be too hard.

I've been training for 20 yrs. I follow the Rex Carr method except I've discovered that you don't need a lot of force. I follow R/C's drills which are a fantastic method for training dogs and I know all of the spaniel drills for upland game. You can check out my web site at WWW.gun-dog-trainer-alberta.com. That should answer most of your questions and there is a link to Ian Christie.


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

hunchaser-thanks for the info., but the URL/link you included does not work.
Is there a different web address to use?


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

minnducker said:


> hunchaser-thanks for the info., but the URL/link you included does not work.
> Is there a different web address to use?


Have you tried Google? I checked with "Go Daddy" and the person who designed the site and it's up and running.

If you can't find it just send me an e-mail at [email protected] and then I can tell you about Ian and how to contact him.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

what ever happened to major shedder anyway?


.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

To me, Force Fetching your dog simply greatly increases your odds of having a non-slip retriever who can compete in ANY of the games, provided of course, he has the marking ability, proper genetics, proper training and proper handling to play in the various games. I believe that if you take 100 dogs who have not been FF'd, and 100 dogs who have been FF'd, there will be a much higher percentage of the FF'd dogs who will succeed in whatever game they decide to play (including being a reliable gun dog). IF you want to have the best odds of having the best gun dog in the marsh, a Hunting Retriever Champion, a Master Hunter, an FC or an NFC, Force Fetch your dog. IF you don't want the best odds, then don't.


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