# CNM and EIC Testing by Owner



## RailRoadRetrievers (Feb 4, 2004)

I am sure this has been covered and asked before, but I haven't been able to find the answer or I can't read to see the answer.

Do you do the testing (swabbing yourselves) or take the dog to the vet each time to have them swab the dog and then mail off the specimen?

Just curious as to how you guys have it done typically.......


----------



## Bally's Gun Dogs (Jul 28, 2010)

EIC Testing-Required to have vet sign off on the form verifying the dog. No special kit required just cheek swabs, blood, or puppy dewclaws.

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vdl/guidelines/canineneuro/cheekswabs/home.html

CNM Testing-Different levels of certification exist which allow you to swab your own dog or the vet swab your dog. I just did some CNM tests this week and the process is very easy. You request kits online, and the instructions on collecting and returning the samples are very good.

http://www.labradorcnm.com/


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

You can swab the dog yourself for EIC, I have done all of mine this way. There are a few special instructions to do this, no bones or chewing items, make sure the dog is kept seperate from other dogs for at least 2 hours I think. It just changes the type of verification that you get just like CNM and OFA with the NOPI, PI, and VPI I think is the last one.

Here is a quote from the U of M site
"For VPI (verified permanent identification) level registration with OFA, a permanent ID must be verified and signed off by the attending veterinarian on the submission form"

As long as you have some type of PI they can be given that type of number.

Here is a OFA link to my dog that I tested myself

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1432191#animal


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Neither of the tests require a vet to sign off, I do my own swabs now, after I had my vet do my initial group with blood when the test first came out. When VDL started taking swabs, I started doing that. Unless I do dews with a litter. Vet doesn't need to sign off on that either.

You can also do your own swabs for PRA and CNM without a vet, though PRA requires a witness signature. 

If I'm taking a dog in for something, I'll send blood but usually, it is just easier for me to do swabs and haven't had a problem with the testing to date.


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

The letters after the CNM cert tell you if the person did it themselves 
NOPI= No Permenant Identification (NO Micro Chip or Tatoo)
PI= Permenant Identification (Micro Chip or Tatoo)
PIV= Permenant Identification Vet Verified (Tatoo and/or Microchip verified by a vet at time sample was taken)

If you are not going to ever breed your dog then it does not matter, One can see how someone might be a little more unsure of results that are not associated with a permenant ID or that a vet did not certify. did the person that swabbed 10 black puppies do the same puppy twice? was the large yellow puppy still the largest yellow puppy when you bought them 7 weeks after the dew claws werre sent in?


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

You can do it yourself.. but to get the highest form of verification you need to have a tattooed or chipped dog and have the vet do it. 

Depends if its just for your personal peace of mind or whether you want the highest verification for potential breedings/buyers.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

If you know you are going to do both tests, order you CNM test kit first. Once you get it, fill out as much of the paperwork that you can. Then down load the forms for the EIC test and fill them out, too. Then head to the vet. Saves on office visit fees.

Also you might want to call your vet to see if they know about both of these tests and if not point them to the websites above. Just makes everything go smooth. Also if they mail the kits for you, make sure you have the required money order for CNM and check for EIC to include.

FOM


----------



## RailRoadRetrievers (Feb 4, 2004)

What would be the form of PI if the dog is not chipped or tattoo'd 

Would that be registration at this point then


----------



## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Mike Tome said:


> You can do it yourself.. but to get the highest form of verification you need to have a tattooed or chipped dog and have the vet do it.
> 
> Depends if its just for your personal peace of mind or whether you want the highest verification for potential breedings/buyers.


Yes, which is why I have my vet do mine.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

ShotGunWillie said:


> What would be the form of PI if the dog is not chipped or tattoo'd
> 
> Would that be registration at this point then


Have your vet do the tests and while you are there have them microchip the dog.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

ShotGunWillie said:


> What would be the form of PI if the dog is not chipped or tattoo'd
> 
> Would that be registration at this point then


For EIC, you cannot get the highest verification then.


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

I buy my chips from revival and do them myself it is way cheaper and easy to do (6.99 vs 60.00). I do my own swabs because my vets want to only do blood for these tests and I personally don't like paying 60 for a blood draw.

The registration number has to be on the form as well but you need a chip or tatoo for a form of PI.


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

ShotGunWillie said:


> What would be the form of PI if the dog is not chipped or tattoo'd
> 
> Would that be registration at this point then


WIth out chip or tattoo it would be NOPI


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Mike Tome said:


> You can do it yourself.. but to get the highest form of verification you need to have a tattooed or chipped dog and have the vet do it.
> 
> Depends if its just for your personal peace of mind or whether you want the highest verification for potential breedings/buyers.





JusticeDog said:


> Yes, which is why I have my vet do mine.


Ditto. I prefer to have the VPI indicator.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

If you think someone can't switch a dog at the vet or that all vets check the permanent ID of dogs they are testing and that VPI is proof positive, well, I got some oceanfront property up here I'll make you a deal on. Scammers will scam regardless, though it may come out in the wash later, particularly with the DNA testing, they've already got their money and run so it doesn't matter to them. If you don't trust the person you are dealing with on a dog, be it puppy, stud, whatever, move on.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> If you think someone can't switch a dog at the vet or that all vets check the permanent ID of dogs they are testing and that VPI is proof positive, well, I got some oceanfront property up here I'll make you a deal on. Scammers will scam regardless, though it may come out in the wash later, particularly with the DNA testing, they've already got their money and run so it doesn't matter to them. If you don't trust the person you are dealing with on a dog, be it puppy, stud, whatever, move on.


What you say is true... if you want to scam someone on this there's ways to do it. Dealing with someone you trust is paramount.

However, that being said.... the only way to get the VPI EIC rating is to have a tattooed or chipped animal tested by a vet....


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

ShotGunWillie said:


> What would be the form of PI if the dog is not chipped or tattoo'd
> 
> Would that be registration at this point then


the only other form of PI would be having the dogs DNA profile on file with AKC and then I think the CNM test can be done and compared to the DNA profile, but it is way easier to Microchip the dog. Most (if not all) shelters now scan all dogs, and people that find dogs can take them to a vet and have them scanned for a chip that will quickly get you your dog back. If things like a natural disaster happen (Katrina hurricane) then it is much easier to find owners.


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> If you think someone can't switch a dog at the vet or that all vets check the permanent ID of dogs they are testing and that VPI is proof positive, well, I got some oceanfront property up here I'll make you a deal on. Scammers will scam regardless, though it may come out in the wash later, particularly with the DNA testing, they've already got their money and run so it doesn't matter to them. If you don't trust the person you are dealing with on a dog, be it puppy, stud, whatever, move on.


Sadly this is true, dishonest people will always find a way.


----------



## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Rainmaker said:


> If you think someone can't switch a dog at the vet or that all vets check the permanent ID of dogs they are testing and that VPI is proof positive, well, I got some oceanfront property up here I'll make you a deal on. Scammers will scam regardless, though it may come out in the wash later, particularly with the DNA testing, they've already got their money and run so it doesn't matter to them. If you don't trust the person you are dealing with on a dog, be it puppy, stud, whatever, move on.


A scammer will be a scammer - but I still prefer to see VPI designation, not that it is an requirement - just that I prefer it. To each their own...

FOM


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Mike Tome said:


> What you say is true... if you want to scam someone on this there's ways to do it. Dealing with someone you trust is paramount.
> 
> However, that being said.... the only way to get the VPI EIC rating is to have a tattooed or chipped animal tested by a vet....


I don't know about that either. I've got plenty of dogs on OFA with EIC results I did myself with swabs and they are listed as VPI. http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1359906#animal is one example. Meanwhile, my OFA vet checks the chips but almost always forgets to check the box on the form so they come back NOPI on hips/elbows. http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1359906#animal

I am NOT arguing that VPI isn't the best, but there are faults in every system apparently. I follow up with testing even on pups that are clear via parentage if I bought them and didn't do the testing myself, never hurts to be absolutely sure. Just sayin', stuff happens, so trust who you are dealing with in any matter, I've been hosed enough myself to know unfortunately.


----------



## Don Smith (Mar 23, 2004)

Bally's Gun Dogs said:


> EIC Testing-Required to have vet sign off on the form verifying the dog. No special kit required just cheek swabs, blood, or puppy dewclaws.
> 
> http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vdl/guidelines/canineneuro/cheekswabs/home.html


A bit off topic, but if you use cheek swabs, they have to be sterile swabs. You can't always find them at a pharmacy and your vet may not have them. I ended up buying mine online.


----------



## Kelly Greenwood (Dec 18, 2008)

I am more worried about a breeder with a litter of 10 pups not making a mistake, then someone cheating. Breeders that have a new litter and have been missing sleep are not always at their mental best. VPI means at least one other competent adult was there..Haha. People can always cheat...


----------



## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Don Smith said:


> A bit off topic, but if you use cheek swabs, they have to be sterile swabs. You can't always find them at a pharmacy and your vet may not have them. I ended up buying mine online.


I agree make sure you order the right ones. With that being said if anybody would like some shoot me a PM and I will give you my address. All I ask for is a self addressed stamped envelope sent to me and I will send you a few swabs. I bought I think 1000 or so on accident when I needed them. I only needed 4 so I have a few extra if anybody needs a few sent there way.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

And as far as testing of anything, I'd sure rather see the results on OFA, be it CERF or EIC or whatever. I would rather see the results be verified by OFA than care whether the designation was VPI. I see studs and dams with only hips on OFA, that's when I wonder and would have to see the AVCO exam, the copies of the EIC test, etc. Which means I then have to make copies for the pup buyers. Way simpler to have it all on OFA and point them there and I really appreciate the owners who go that extra length to submit their dog info to OFA, despite the additional fees.


----------



## RailRoadRetrievers (Feb 4, 2004)

But all of this testing doesn't matter if both sire and dam are clear correct? Just learning as we go here.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

ShotGunWillie said:


> But all of this testing doesn't matter if both sire and dam are clear correct? Just learning as we go here.


Correct, pups from clear parents would be clear themselves, but even if I have a pup from EIC clear parents and I plan to breed, after OFA and CERF are done, I'll still do the EIC. AND put it on OFA. So it is clear and verified and out there for everyone to see. It is a newer test and I just want to be sure, especially if I breed to a carrier.


----------



## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

ShotGunWillie said:


> But all of this testing doesn't matter if both sire and dam are clear correct? Just learning as we go here.


Here's where you delve into the matter of trust...

It shouldn't matter... however, litters have been known to have multiple sires...

Just sayin'....


----------



## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

kzunell said:


> I am more worried about a breeder with a litter of 10 pups not making a mistake, then someone cheating. Breeders that have a new litter and have been missing sleep are not always at their mental best. VPI means at least one other competent adult was there..Haha. People can always cheat...


Just a note, newborn pups can't be swabbed-they must be weaned to be swabbed. Newborns would be dew claws so either the vet woud be present, or the breeder woud do their own dew claws and identifying the pups by microchips-ouch or some other form of identification.

All my studs health certs have been done VPI but I am doing the rest myself with swabs now. 

People carry on more about EIC clear, and then ignore elbows, and that I absolutely don't understand, because elbows are actually more important than hips because it is career ending, especially when linebreeding on certain high profile sires that are in a line with documented elbow problems.


----------



## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

ShotGunWillie said:


> What would be the form of PI if the dog is not chipped or tattoo'd
> 
> Would that be registration at this point then


PI = Permanent Identification. Without a chip or tatoo, that PI doesnt exist!


----------



## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> If you think someone can't switch a dog at the vet or that all vets check the permanent ID of dogs they are testing and that VPI is proof positive, well, I got some oceanfront property up here I'll make you a deal on. Scammers will scam regardless, though it may come out in the wash later, particularly with the DNA testing, they've already got their money and run so it doesn't matter to them. If you don't trust the person you are dealing with on a dog, be it puppy, stud, whatever, move on.


Well, I can only speak for one vet I know, but he absolutely *does* scan every dog before he does the swabs. If there's no chip, the dog gets one before he signs anything.


----------



## 3blackdogs (Aug 23, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> Correct, pups from clear parents would be clear themselves, but even if I have a pup from EIC clear parents and I plan to breed, after OFA and CERF are done, *I'll still do the EIC.* AND put it on OFA. So it is clear and verified and out there for everyone to see. It is a newer test and I just want to be sure, especially if I breed to a carrier.


Jeff has tested a number of dogs for exactly this reason: owners have a dog that is clear by parentage, but planning on breeding and want that certificate, and the results on the record.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

3blackdogs said:


> Well, I can only speak for one vet I know, but he absolutely *does* scan every dog before he does the swabs. If there's no chip, the dog gets one before he signs anything.


I realize most will, but to rely solely on VPI as an absolute guarantee, well, it just isn't. That's the only point I was making, not that most vets are not doing their due diligence or anything else, just that some believe VPI is the holy grail apparently and that those who don't have VPI are somehow "less" and that isn't always the case. VPI designation is no better than the person entering the data, in my experience. There are multiple holes in the testing system and mistakes can be made by anybody as well, it still boils down to the reputation and responsibility of the dog owner being as careful and diligent as they can be, IMO.


----------



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

3blackdogs said:


> Jeff has tested a number of dogs for exactly this reason: owners have a dog that is clear by parentage, but planning on breeding and want that certificate, and the results on the record.


Yes, it makes me leery a bit. I bred to one stud once, both his parents were clear and I had the paperwork for them, both owned by reputable kennels, the stud had everything else, including PRA, on OFA, but just him not having his own EIC, I don't know, didn't seem quite right. Even though I know he was in all likelihood clear, I just wouldn't be comfortable breeding a carrier to an untested clear. Even worse than not having a VPI designation .


----------

