# Teen Trainor Looking For A Summer Mentorship...



## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

I posted a thread last year about being a bird boy for someone in Colorado Springs. I didn't have much luck. I did however meet FOM and constantly trained with her until wrestling season started. Due to some complications I will not have my license until January, but I will figure transportation out. I am trying to plan my summer vacation around possibly doing a mentorship at your professional kennel. I am interested in becoming a pro and learning the ropes. I do not however want to be your pooper scooper or kennel cleaner (unless you're doing it too). I want to be throwing birds and behind you taking notes and asking questions. I will throw birds all day, run my personal dog last and then sleep in a tent in your backyard. Thanks- Jacob


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

train*er* 
unlike ment*or - *which you got right.the english language is so phonetically frustrating. My oldest son has the same handicap - so I am only in jest telling you the correct spelling. 
Seems like there ought to be someone interested in taking you on as a student.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Unless you or your parents are willing to pay to have your dog in training with that pro - you're going to need a massive adjustment in attitude/expectations. 

You're talking about being a client not being an employee.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

I would like to be a bird boy and since I wouldn't feel comfortable running clients dogs as I lack experience a would probably screw something up but if I screw my own dog up its no big deal. This is a way for me to get line time and experience. Not having my personal dog is not a deal breaker plus this costs the pro no money and all he has to do is let me watch, answer a few questions and possibly let me run my dog at the end of the day wile I throw birds and air dogs as well as do any reasonable chores.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

There isn't a pro worth his pay that doesn't pick up crap and clean kennels, especially when they are on the circuit, it goes with the territory..

To the OP the flaw in your plan comes down to running your dog...running your dog costs both time and money..it also is not fair to the paying clients of the pro for you to use those resources even if you are throwing birds too...

Your best bet might be to barter your services as a bird boy in exchange for access to the training grounds for you and your dog, develop some friendships within the group and learn what you can from them along with the pro. Some of the Amateurs in the group may be every bit as talented and knowledgable as the Pro but are either retired or make their living in another profession


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

You can come throw birds WITH me any time you like! The notebook you keep would describe how NOT to do things..  (reverse learning)

We train in a HORRIBLE state park.. before the sessions begin,, each of us grabs a plastic bag,and goes on voluntary poop patrol, picking up other slobs messes..


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

It was always fun when the new "Apprentices" came into the shop...

All the Journeymen grinned when the newbees realized they weren't going to start off with the "gravy" 

There was a LOT a Broccoli they had to consume, before they got to the good stuff..

Still eatin Broccoli regards...

Gooser


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Boykin said:


> I posted a thread last year about being a bird boy for someone in Colorado Springs. I didn't have much luck. I did however meet FOM and constantly trained with her until wrestling season started. Due to some complications I will not have my license until January, but I will figure transportation out. I am trying to plan my summer vacation around possibly doing a mentorship at your professional kennel. I am interested in becoming a pro and learning the ropes. I do not however want to be your pooper scooper or kennel cleaner (unless you're doing it too). I want to be throwing birds and behind you taking notes and asking questions. I will throw birds all day, run my personal dog last and then sleep in a tent in your backyard. Thanks- Jacob


Contact Jake Frederick. He did something with Lardy a few years back. Think he got to train his dog weekends and evenings. Whatever he did he ended up with some good experience and a great dog.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

You're a few years ahead of yourself Jacob. Go shovel crap for a few summers and you may get a chance to do what you're talking about. If you don't have the humility to do that then you're going to have a heck of a time, unless, as I said - you or your parents are willing to pay someone to mentor you.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

BonMallari said:


> *There isn't a pro worth his pay that doesn't pick up crap and clean kennels*, especially when they are on the circuit, it goes with the territory..
> 
> To the OP the flaw in your plan comes down to running your dog...*running your dog costs both time and money*..it also is not fair to the paying clients of the pro for you to use those resources even if you are throwing birds too...
> 
> Your best bet might be to barter your services as a bird boy in exchange for access to the training grounds for you and your dog, develop some friendships within the group and learn what you can from them along with the pro.* Some of the Amateurs in the group may be every bit as talented and knowledgable as the Pro but are either retired or make their living in another profession*


1. I specified that if he was doing it, the I would do it. I would be very easy for me to travel somewhere only to be constantly cleaning kennels, and scooping poo instead of learning out in the field.

2. Sure running my dog cost him five minutes at the end of the set up but bird boys cost him money (he could just as easily use stickmen and wingers). I also specified that at the end of the day I would/could run my dog, meaning that my dog is last priority. I also specified in my last post that not having my personal dog is not a deal breaker.

3. That is what I have found In FOM. I don't get the grind experience that I know is apart of the game. 

I really appreciate the positivity and the help i'm receiving. Please keep it coming.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

The job is - at the kennel before the boss, feed/air dogs and daily cleaning, load dogs on truck, trailer or whatever- assist boss all day - put dogs up for the night, feed, late night airing, lather, rinse repeat. Mow grass, do miscellaneous repairs you're capable of, treat boss, his family and clients with respect. Be humble and realize you bring nothing to the job but your youthful energy and muscles. 

That's the job. You may not like it and you may not choose to do it but that doesn't change the job. 

Maybe there's someone out there that would elect to do something different with you however, I would be doubtful. I have worked with a lot of trainers and they pretty much all started that way or they had money and learned as a client. 

If you think you're gonna stand at the line and take notes all day, throw a few birds and run your own dog, you've got another thing coming - unless you're willing to pay for it since that's what a pro's clients will be doing. 

It would be unfair to charge a client $750 a month or $50/day for training then give you the knowledge for free. 

You have an unrealistic understanding of where you are in the pecking order that needs to be straightened out before you can succeed.

You might also consider learning how to deal with the real answers to questions you pose in an open minded and non argumentative manner. It will take you much further than what you seem to be doing as of now. 

We were all you in our teens. We sympathize but... we paid our dues and you'll pay yours or get nowhere.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> You're a few years ahead of yourself Jacob. Go shovel crap for a few summers and you may get a chance to do what you're talking about. If you don't have the humility to do that then you're going to have a heck of a time, unless, as I said - you or your parents are willing to pay someone to mentor you.


I will help pick up crap if he does it with me or if I masked. It would be to easy for me to travel only to shovel crap and clean kennels in stead of learning.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Boykin said:


> I will help pick up crap if he does it with me or if I masked. It would be to easy for me to travel only to shovel crap and clean kennels in stead of learning.


Last post - you have some things to learn before you're even qualified to clean a kennel, much less throw a bird or train a dog.


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

IMO other than the original poster, all of you have got it all wrong.
Refer back to last week when the school teacher who has trained a hunting dog just all of a sudden wants to go pro.
This kid IMO is trying to do it right. He wants to do the grunt work, work as a free helper (dollars back in the pros pocket) and then get to run his dog at the end. 
How refreshing to see someone, especially a millennial, who does not expect to start at the top. AKC calls me a pro because I charge my gun dog clients to train and if I had enough to do it full time, I'd try to take the kid up on his offer. I'm only training about 10 so it's not really full time for me.
I have a good friend, full time pro trainer, who has a spare apartment on his property that I am going to contact to see if he will take up the kid on his offer.
Boykin, pm me your contact info and I will try to put you guys together.
MP


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> The job is - at the kennel before the boss, feed/air dogs and daily cleaning, load dogs on truck, trailer or whatever- assist boss all day - put dogs up for the night, feed, late night airing, lather, rinse repeat. Mow grass, do miscellaneous repairs you're capable of, treat boss, his family and clients with respect. Be humble and realize you bring nothing to the job but your youthful energy and muscles.
> 
> That's the job. You may not like it and you may not choose to do it but that doesn't change the job.
> 
> ...


I sincerely appreciate your responses, positivity and help you have provided me with. This thread has basically been putting me on blast. My work ethic is there and my willingness to learn is there. I understand where your coming from but maybe as you said I will get lucky. I know and understand the hard work and am willing to do it. Im also not opposed to doing the work but I also want to learn. I also appreciate that you being in the industry can provide me these insider tips.
No wonder kids don't want to get started in dogs. The "veterans" will put you on blast and try to run you out. To bad the drives already there or you would have seriously knocked me out. Thanks for the help and Merry christmas- Jacob


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Jacob,

I can see Darrin's and Gooser's points - As a taxidermist I get calls regularly from people wanting to apprentice. I may take on an apprentice at some time, but if I do, I guarantee they will not be starting out with mounting animals. They will be fleshing/skinning/salting, cleaning, stretching bears for rugs, sewing backing on before they get to learn the 'art' that taxidermy really is. At least not in a hands on way... they can learn by watching and if they have the where-with-all to do the grunt work, I will show them the artform of sculpting, making and altering forms, etc.... They will have to earn that privilege. 

Have you tried calling the pro's in your area? Are you old enough for an actual paying job (legally - not sure what the age requirements are for training/handling/kennel work). If you are, you might be better off looking for a kennel job rather than trading out as a bird boy..... Any kennel/training job will entail kennel cleaning and grunt work, I guarantee it. 

Put yourself in the pro's position. He is asking for money to train people's dogs... suddenly comes along someone who wants to train their own dog, but have the pro tell them how to do it - or give advice, or what have you in exchange for throwing birds (which is about 'half' of what I would want, if I was the pro)..... That is basically like them turning money away. That is why we have retriever seminars, and day training with pros, etc. People PAY to have a pro help them train their dog. And I know for a fact in some of those cases they also throw marks for their pro.

Another thing to consider is liability the pro may have with you helping...


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> Last post - you have some things to learn before you're even qualified to clean a kennel, much less throw a bird or train a dog.[/QUOTE
> 
> Where do I start to learn these things. I understand that he is on a major time crutch with light hours in a day but I would love to actualy reacive some help from a pro like yourself.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

I don't expect to start at the top and I will certainly work to get up there.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

The federal minimum wage is at 7.21 a hour. If a pro charges 750 a month and you say we WORK 12ish hour days that's $86.52 a day. If I work for a month with this guy thats a total of 2595.60. If he charges me 750 a month and I work for a mentorship and the dogs training fee, I just saved him 1845.6. Plus transportation and the cost of living are costing me money so am I taking the loss... No because i'm investing in my future career... I fail to see where i'm wrong... Can anyone simplify?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I don't doubt it. But you might have better luck working your request from the other angle. Ask the pros in your area what it would take for you to be able to maybe spend some time working with them.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

For the lad wanting to learn about training retrievers. 
There are at least 3 major well respected ft pros that I know that got a start throwing birds and helping out as young teenagers. There has to be many others between the ht and ft levels earning a living or good amateurs that started early in life. For me in the early 60's my babe Ruth league baseball coach had a lab I threw for. I had labs off of that dog until the late 90's
For the ones that want to poke at you just remember this is a kid and if he lived near me in Alabama he could throw birds and run his dog plus get paid for it. He might learn a few other things also ( mostly bad) for example how to " Roll Tide"


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## canuckkiller (Apr 16, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> There isn't a pro worth his pay that doesn't pick up crap and clean kennels, especially when they are on the circuit, it goes with the territory.
> 
> Webster spells mentor a-p-p-r-e-n-t-i-c-e and defines that -"to serve another for a certain time an 'indenture' ".
> Implication, subservience - willingness to serve another's purposes.
> ...


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

I would be more than willing to talk to you about this but I will tell you right from the start that you will be pickin up s#!+ and hosin kennels. First of it only takes about 45 minutes in the morning to do kennel chores. If your doing that it frees me up to getting started with a lot of the yard work before I go to the field. It will also give me more time to be teaching you. Sounds like I may have to get you collar conditioned. I would help you all I can but you will also earn your keep, you help me and I will help you. If I'm spending all my time with you I'm not getting the work that I'm getting paid for done.
Some here have over acted a bit but from your post I can see why. I could really use someone like you but your not going to start off by telling me what your going to do or not going to do. I was 15 once but I'm 60 now, just think about that for a bit. Running and working with your own dog is not a problem. I would treat you fair and would teach you but just like a dog and a handler it is a two way street and it takes team work. I am not that far away from you so if your serious and want to talk about it shoot me a pm and I will send you my phone number.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I wish you well Boykin...

I have grown to have a VERY deep respect for the Pro dog trainer... The couple of them I have had the privilege to be around, are the hardest most dedicated people I have ever met.....

And what I have experienced is,,, they do it all,,, everyday.... no such thing as a day off...

I have done mt fair share of hard work, long hours,,shifts that last for weeks until you get a day off...

A successful pro dog trainer deserves a very high degree of respect... One that would offer you an opportunity to learn,,, well you should listen to what I am sure Lainee has said around you..

"The only answer is" YES Ma'am" (or Sir)

You NEVER say...." Ya,, But! " 

EVEN,,, by the way,,,,, When *you* are PAYING *them* to TEACH you...

Ask Lainee how I know! 




P.S.

Something else to keep in mind.... 

An "Intership" the intern works for free....NO Salary! Just the privilege to be present and learn ALL aspects of what He/ she might have has dome BASIC training for..and then when he /she completes the internship,, they can say they have "Work Experience"

An APPRENTICE...USUALLY knows NOYHING, or very little.. He is USUALLY being paid a WAGE to WORK WHILE HE LEARNS.... A LOT comes with that... ALLLLL sorts of things.... There MUST be something in it for the person or company offering the "Apprenticship" USUALLY what he gets out of it comes VERY late in the training...

I have served 4 FORMAL apprenticeships in my life... I learned to do all sorts of things... I learned to do the "Unpleasant" things quickly"


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Boykin said:


> The federal minimum wage is at 7.21 a hour. If a pro charges 750 a month and you say we WORK 12ish hour days that's $86.52 a day. If I work for a month with this guy thats a total of 2595.60. If he charges me 750 a month and I work for a mentorship and the dogs training fee, I just saved him 1845.6. Plus transportation and the cost of living are costing me money so am I taking the loss... No because i'm investing in my future career... I fail to see where i'm wrong... Can anyone simplify?


You asked how to learn "these things" - "these things" aren't what you think they are (obviously). If you really want to do this then I suggest you forget all that math and go find a pro where you can volunteer to be his/her kennel boy with no expectations as to what you'll get in return. Maybe - in exchange for some guidance training your own dog. No one can teach you the value of humility, generosity and listening instead of speaking. Those are the things you need to learn. Anyone can shovel poop.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

DarrinGreene said:


> You're a few years ahead of yourself Jacob. Go shovel crap for a few summers and you may get a chance to do what you're talking about. If you don't have the humility to do that then you're going to have a heck of a time, unless, as I said - you or your parents are willing to pay someone to mentor you.


Why all the negatives here? Sure will not get the top pros but I know of several back when I lived in Wisconsin that would jump over getting a bird boy all for him to run his dog and learn. A little encouragement would go a long way, perhaps he could head to pointers because I know they like new blood and willing to exchange work for teaching.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Boykin said:


> I don't expect to start at the top and I will certainly work to get up there.


Smart kid wanted ,Not too smart.
That was an ad that was posted some time ago .
....
Sounds like you have an idea of what the top is without ever being there and an idea of what the bottom is without ever started.
I'm sure the 'pro' set up is pretty much the same as it is over here in Scotland (regarding a business of Training dogs) .
I can only speak of the similar types of requests such as yours over here. 

I start by saying that it's 'split shifts' and 'Priority work times' that are premium to the initial learner. 
So if you can arrive at 06:30 till 08:30 that's fine ,then I won't need you till 18:30 till 20:30. ..If you can come back at 23:00 for last pee You get a bonus . 
You can work out your hourly rate for the times you work based on the national minimum wage in our country. 
Btw, If my business is going slow then be prepared for You to be not required until it is better.
If you have your own dog during the day then it will be kenneled and charged like any other that takes that space ,and I won't have any dog in a car all day (even though you don't have one  ) 
.....
On the bright side ..I did have one of them 'Youth employment seekers' who were willing to learn a skill whilst receiving a grant from the Government as a school leaver because their vocation in life was this . They eventually became the mother of my Grand children .but that's probably because I seen something in their ability to learn rather than what they said .
Good luck.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

If I were you I would go for a hired birdboy position. Hopefully you would find someone with a bedroom or travel trailer you and your dog could live in. 
It might be $10/hr but often clients and particularly paying day trainers will tip birdboys. Working every day essentially you would pocket over $3,000 cash a month. You could if needed rent a room for the summer. 
Consider going after work in area where several pros summer. Ronan Montana would be excellent. 
Another choice would be to take birdboy job with A List amateur and their training group. Many in Ronan. Experience you gain with a dedicated amateur group on their summer trip will be equal to spending summer with pro. Likely easier for you to squeeze in running your dog too.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Breck said:


> Working every day essentially you would pocket over $3,000 cash a month.


That's more than I earn 'profit' . !
Any jobs going ?


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

Regarding the poo thing. Part of an owner and trainers responsibilities are looking after dogs health and well being. Being around to see them air and/or cleanup kennels if they weren't aired properly gives you clues on dogs health and may even save their life.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Regarding the job thing . Biggest part of the Employers responsibility is the Employee. ! Their safety and health and well being ,that should give a huge clue on what comes as standard .


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

I know of a few that have done what you are asking with field trial pros and getting paid. I'm sure if you contact enough pros in person or by phone, someone would take your offer.


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## johngoehl (Nov 5, 2014)

Contact Paul Knutson of Gun Club Retrievers in Orchard. It's not much more than an hour away from you. I just drove there to leave a dog off and passed right by Falcon. It's a straight shot north and you wouldn't even go through Denver. He is a very talented professional and I think he would be willing to work something out with you. He will be leaving for Texas after the first of the month until May. I like your ambition and hope you can get your foot in the door. Also, I live less than an hour from you and have discovered some wonderful training places around Lake Pueblo if you would like to get together later next year for some dog training.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

The bottom is where I am now, knowing a little but having the drive to develop myself. The top is where my hard work gets me. Different for different people.


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

Jacob - there is a guy up in Kiowa,CO named Gary Ruppel who has been around for quite a while. I don't know if he has done any HT or FT training, but I do know you won't find a nicer person in the dog business except for maybe Julie Knutson out at GunClub. Give Gary a call some time, wander up to Kiowa and meet him - it isn't far from Falcon - maybe 35 or 40 minutes, and I promise it will be worth your time.

On a side note - did you guys go to Yuma today and if so, how was it?

Greg


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

polmaise said:


> That's more than I earn 'profit' . !
> Any jobs going ?


A bird boy will earn $10 per hour....non are full time but if they were that would be $22,000 per year


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

spaightlabs said:


> Jacob - there is a guy up in Kiowa,CO named Gary Ruppel who has been around for quite a while. I don't know if he has done any HT or FT training, but I do know you won't find a nicer person in the dog business except for maybe Julie Knutson out at GunClub. Give Gary a call some time, wander up to Kiowa and meet him - it isn't far from Falcon - maybe 35 or 40 minutes, and I promise it will be worth your time.
> 
> On a side note - did you guys go to Yuma today and if so, how was it?
> 
> Greg


We ended up postponing it and trying to figure out if we will got to Lamar tomorrow and doing a sunday to wednesday to hunt in a a pit with a guy we met scouting.The cold scared us off. But with a high of -10 all the way trough hunt until tomorrow midday. We are hopefully going to capitalize on the the first stretch of warm weather at 37. How'd you do today?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Why all the negatives here? Sure will not get the top pros but I know of several back when I lived in Wisconsin that would jump over getting a bird boy all for him to run his dog and learn. A little encouragement would go a long way, perhaps he could head to pointers because I know they like new blood and willing to exchange work for teaching.


Not really trying to be negative. Just sharing my personal experience with working for a living (30 years) and in particular working with accomplished dog trainers as an employee. Humility is the first key to success. Shoveling sh$t might be your job for the first summer, and throwing some birds. This young fellas is trying to make a deal he has little leverage to make. He may succeed but he sounds very entitled in his original post. I wish him the best and hope he does well.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I don't think its a matter of anyone being negative.... I view it as people being honest or truthful.. Listen,, If you are going to try to learn a skill, and request people to TEACH you those skills,, You had better grow a VERY thick skin for the journey.. If its a SKILL or a TRADE,, the road to success can be difficult..There are Many things you will need to learn. You need to learn the unpleasant side as well. as the enjoyable side...


Bottom line....


If someone gives you a chance... YOUR success will depend a LOT on your performance and your ability to grasp concepts quickly, but most importantly your ATTITUDE will be key,,, otherwise it MAY not be worth the effort that the person has to work at, to TEACH you.. 

I have watched a LOT of people try and serve an apprenticeship,,but discover during the process it isn't really what they are cut out to do FOR A LIVING... Sometimes its the Aprentices decision to go a different route,, sometime its the Master telling them bluntly to not waste their time...

I don't think anyone is being negative... I think advice coming from people that have actually DONE what you are requesting... (Working as a BIRD BOY and moving up the ladder, or those that Served REAL Apprenticeships,, are just being honest with you...)

Grow a thick skin,, and be prepared that it may not be a bed of roses that you have the power to set conditions on what you want... I will tell you,,as far as someone thinking about helping someone learn,,, That attitude is a real RED Flag,, and you will be tested about it right out of the box.. Its the truth!!!


Boykin,,,, Have you worked for an employer yet? Have you worked your first job on a payroll? part time ect?


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Also.... Keep in mind, that Probably (I dont know for sure, just guessing) that most of the people you have talked to and dealt with in you discovery of Dog training, are doing this as a Hobby,,, for FUN,,,,

There is a big difference working at something as a Hobby, and working at something for a living..


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I agree with Gooser and Darrin. If the boss tells you to pick up the airing yard, you do it. It is not a requirement that the boss has to pick up poop too. The faster it gets picked up, the faster you can get out in the field. Anybody that works for a pro knows that is part of the job. You don't get to pick and choose what you want to do. You want to get in with a good pro and learn, you do what they ask. Bird boys may have to clean the truck before a trial too, or mow lawn, or feed. Even clients may help throw birds, water dogs, bring them up to line and take them away, just to keep things moving for the benefit of all, and they get paid nothing, and still have to pay for training. Many of us have not felt entitled to just sit and take notes. This is to learn from a good pro, not just any pro.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

As far as a skill or a Trade..

In the end, you will have to be able to produce a quality product in a reasonable amount of time, at a fair price, to stay *BUSY*!!!!

There is a guy here that likes woodworking.... he's OK at it! He's not very BUSY,,, He's sittin in a chair this morning runnin his mouth on a RETRIEVER board.... 

DONT BE THAT GUY!!!!!! If you get the chance you are requesting.... Count your blessings,, and apply yourself 100 % to REALLY learn.. EVERY aspect!!! That's how you will become expert at what you do,,and IN DEMAND!!!

Macaroni and cheese out of a box,, really gets old..


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## jd6400 (Feb 23, 2009)

ErinsEdge said:


> I agree with Gooser and Darrin. If the boss tells you to pick up the airing yard, you do it. It is not a requirement that the boss has to pick up poop too. The faster it gets picked up, the faster you can get out in the field. Anybody that works for a pro knows that is part of the job. You don't get to pick and choose what you want to do. You want to get in with a good pro and learn, you do what they ask. Bird boys may have to clean the truck before a trial too, or mow lawn, or feed. Even clients may help throw birds, water dogs, bring them up to line and take them away, just to keep things moving for the benefit of all, and they get paid nothing, and still have to pay for training. Many of us have not felt entitled to just sit and take notes. This is to learn from a good pro, not just any pro.


The good ones shouldn't have to be told.....Jim


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

Here's my take. It's not a criticism, just my 2 cents. I can't speak for the retriever trainers here. My work experience as a teen and college student was first at a zoo then a wildlife rehabilitation / nature center. Zoo work was almost of year of cleaning and feeding before I started in teaching programs another year before I got to do behavior modification. There were fun parts of the job from day one but maybe 80% of my day was cleaning. Nature center was closer 50/50 as I worked in wildlife rehab. Animal care jobs in every field with every species are heavy on clean, care, feed, repeat. In the in-between times their is training or specialized work, and ALWAYS there is learning. The skills I learned about animal behavior from simply cleaning, watching and feeding were pretty significant. Today I train pointing dogs alone. Cleaning and feeding time is a great time to learn your client dog's personality quirks and get to know temperaments. Even while cleaning, you will have behavior you need to manage. Jumping, grabbing the pan out of your hands, charging the doors, etc. Be prepared to go in and train from the bottom up. Show the trainer how you you have politely moved the dogs towards good habits while you feed in clean. Work well and fast and be early, so you are finished when trainer loads dogs and can go along. If not finished, when you can drive, ask where to meet them when you are able to after finishing work. IMHO All time with trainer during training is volunteer time. Cleaning, feeding, and helping with care is work time. I do trade allowing people to run their dog for volunteer help throwing birds and loading launchers. Not everyone does, but I would. Take whatever you think useful out of my thoughts.


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## Kyle_Daniel (Apr 18, 2015)

Jacob I got a story for you... About a year and a half ago I was in the same boat you are. I had a serious interest in training and wanted to do anything I could to learn. But the only difference in me and you was I was willing to do ANYTHING it took. I did ANYTHING the trainer asked me to do and never said a word about it. I earned his respect, and now that I've worked for him for a while I'm starting to get more responsibilities. But I can assure you that every single morning the dogs are aired, the dogs are fed, the airing yard is picked up, and the dogs are loaded on the truck before he is ready to head to the field. I worked my tail off to get to this point (still not very far along) and I still continue to work my tail off every day. I can promise you my boss has NEVER heard me say a word about picking up crap out of the airing yard.. Because I truly want to learn and I don't care what it takes. I'll finish by saying I'm just a few years older than you, and it's posts like these and mindsets like the one you have that give older people such a bad taste in their mouths about millennials.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

I will also add, I take a certain pleasure and pride in a job well done with cleaning. Always have found it a time to make a nice visual difference while my head can work through the rest of my day. It's easy mental work, just straight labor mostly and it's a nice change from thinking like a dog or dealing with people. Maybe I don't love it, but it's enjoyable in it's own way. It's also the time when I get to talk with the dogs a bit with more freedom and look for overall health, appetite, stool, water consumption, illness and injury etc... It's actually extremely important part of the day for me. If a pointing dog is off they may need the day off. Running for an hour can bring an already ill dog down pretty fast and dogs with heart will do it for you regardless of how they feel.


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## born2retrieve (Nov 18, 2007)

If you are willing to come throw birds all day for me I'd certainly let you run your dog and help you do so. I don't let anyone air and feed my truck without me anyways. No one knows the dogs better then me so I make damn sure they are getting what they need. If I was closer you would be welcome. I know a few pros that might help you out. Kenny trott with horse tooth retrievers would be a good start. Look him up on his web site. He has a few others summer with him so I'm sure they would be looking for help. People on here need to put out a hand to someone wanting to learn and get into the sport.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

Good post Greg....glad someone finally got it.....the sport needs new blood, give the boy some positive information. People always seem to forget where they have come from and how they got to where they're at now...Good luck finding your path young dog trainer...Randy


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I've been watching this thread and didn't want to throw my two cents in because I feel Jacob can hold his own, however something kept nagging at me.

I can vouch that Jacob is a hard worker and he will do what is necessary to create and maintain a good relationship with the Pro that is willing to help him out. As a thank you for me helping him, he came over and pulled fencing, I did not ask him to do it, he volunteered because he knew we were working on the property that day (I think he also didn't want to go to his little brother's baseball game, too  ) Not to mention he is familiar with a poopper scooper and can throw birds better than Gooser can! :O

I know that the typed word on a forum makes conversations very difficult and I think that is what has caused some miscommunication here. Additionally, Jacob is only raising concerns that I mentioned to him about making sure he finds the right Pro to train with. I'm concerned that "anyone who can hang a sign out" might abuse his youthfulness and he would become nothing but a kennel slave, if you will. I think Jacob needs to find a Pro willing to balance out Jacob's willingness to do whatever it takes, but at the same time, be fair to him. 

He was introduced to the whole slew of FT Pros here in Colorado when he ran my dog in a Qualifying this past Fall. I planted the seed in many of their minds that he was looking for some mentoring. However at this point Jacob is looking for as many various options as possible and is trying to do "homework" vs. just latching on to any "Pro" that says come on out. 

Unfortunately, the opportunities in the Springs area is limited (training groups included, let alone quality Pros), so Jacob has to balance out "room and board" concerns too. 

I'd ask kindly, that before replying, try and be positive, Jacob is still learning and is willing to learn and willing to put in the effort. 

And forgive him for having a small brown dog....I tried to convert him to the dark side, but my attempts failed?! 

FOM


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

FOM said:


> I know that the typed word on a forum makes conversations very difficult and I think that is what has caused some miscommunication here.
> FOM


I can relate to that .
Some can't .


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Communication and people skills are something that needs to be learned right along with dog training skills. That also goes for the business skills a lot of pros are sometimes lacking, so I agree with you Laniee - finding the right mentor is important for a number of reasons. 

Learning to keep your concerns about a job/employer close to the vest and display a positive attitude until proven otherwise is a skill it can sometimes take time to learn. I have certainly made my share of mistakes in 40 years of work, some within and some outside the dog training industry. 

From my time working with trainers from all over the country, retriever, LEO, military and the like - keeping your pride to yourself and picking up some poop goes a very long way. 

Nothing negative about that and if Jacob learns it in his teens he will be a lot better off than the people who made the mistakes later in life and paid the price. 

His post and your description of him seem to be somewhat at odds with one another, and that's good.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Kyle_Daniel said:


> Jacob I got a story for you... About a year and a half ago I was in the same boat you are. I had a serious interest in training and wanted to do anything I could to learn. But the only difference in me and you was I was willing to do ANYTHING it took. I did ANYTHING the trainer asked me to do and never said a word about it. I earned his respect, and now that I've worked for him for a while I'm starting to get more responsibilities. But I can assure you that every single morning the dogs are aired, the dogs are fed, the airing yard is picked up, and the dogs are loaded on the truck before he is ready to head to the field. I worked my tail off to get to this point (still not very far along) and I still continue to work my tail off every day. I can promise you my boss has NEVER heard me say a word about picking up crap out of the airing yard.. Because I truly want to learn and I don't care what it takes. I'll finish by saying I'm just a few years older than you, and it's posts like these and mindsets like the one you have that give older people such a bad taste in their mouths about millennials.


Well said and well written...I have always said "get an education and the lord can't take it away from you" Whatever life direction you take you will hopefully LEARN...Are you a learner or a burner


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Jacob!!!! I repeat,,, JACOB....

There is no one here pullin for you more than Gooser..... I wish you the best.... I watched you run that Highly trained dog of Lainess,,and was VERY impressed at you demeanor... I actually got choked up watchin you run...

I gave my two cents in this thread, because I have been in your position wanting to learn a trade, and then being given a chance to learn from "Master" Toolmakers...

I was told what a great opportunity Apprentiships were.. THEY ARE.... But real life,, you will find some that will want to take advantage of you... They will work you hard and get more out of YOY than what you learn out of them.... That's the cold hard truth of the matter..... I wish someone would have been honest with me when I was younger,so as to know what to expect...

Even through those challenging Apprenticships (plural) I learned things about myself,, that those hard core teachers never could take away from me.... I learned to work in stressful undesirable situations,,and how to effectively deal !

Like I said.... I am pulling for you!!! BIG TIME!!!!!!

Your situation is inspiring to me because of one MAJOR circumstance...


You are a young man, that has decided very early to have a passion to learn what he wants to do for the rest of his life... That is.....


TO actually *TRAIN A DOG*!!!!!!!! *THEMSELVES*!!!!!


Good luck young man... But have Open eyes,,and an open mind, and realize you will learn a LOT about many different things along your way.... Some of them will have NOTHING to do with dogs!! And many situations will severely test your "Want"


You are a wrestler! I am sure I don't have to explain what I am sayin!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I agree, Jacob's delivery on an open forum was not ideal. I would not of posted as much info/concerns as he did. I know he regretted it because I got two calls from him in addition to texts (I was unable to reply to him right away)....that's when I decided to see what was up and checked out RTF. My hunch was right and I found this thread.

Jacob is a good kid, I actually think of him as a young adult because that is how he behaves around me. He is also very sensitive to doing the wrong thing, trust me, I want to choke him sometimes because he beats himself up to harshly when he realizes he has stepped into a pile of poop (pun intended). Since I've worked closely with him, I know he takes everything to heart, he understands what everyone is trying to point out.

I just don't know how to convince him the RTF bus is always looking for people to run over and the likelihood of brain damage is high whenever you post questions like his on RTF. Hopefully he will learn discretion as he tackles life's lessons? 

Back to to the rafters for me....

FOM


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

One Last thing..

The "Master" That took advantage of me, worked me HARD for long hours, never let me have a "Sick" day... I Picked up HIS tools, MY tools,, HIS messes and MY messes ,,and not one time in the 14 yrs I worked for him ,, did I ever receive a compliment.... And very little money..


The "Master" was my DAD! I learned more from him than anyone that has ever tried to teach me anything.... I miss him everyday.... I have used what he taught me for goin on 50 years...


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

No one is trying to run the bus over the kid! I hope what was said helps him succeed in real life! We need more kids that are willing to get out there and put in the work it takes, and have the patience it takes to be successful! 

Nuf said here - good luck Jacob!


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

What you're asking for isn't unreasonable. Especially for no pay. I've seen some of the paid help these pros get and they would kill for a kid with some work ethic. Working as a paid bird boy and/or willing to spray a little $h1t will probably open more opportunities for you. Throwing for a successful Am group(as breck stated) would also be another option that would fill you with more information than you could probably process. P.S. Trying to contact pros on this site is a waste of time. Pros that you want to be learning from aren't on here bashing your aspirations, they're out training dogs. Get on PRTA and start making phone calls.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Boykin, If I knew I wanted to become a Pro retriever trainer 10 years ago before I had another career and family or even if I was committed to it now I would start by looking up pros I'd like to work for. I'd go to them and say that I am willing to do whatever is needed around the kennel. I'd work my rear end off and I bet I'd earn the respect of my employer and build a relationship. If you had that attitude of being willing to do anything then after a while most people are more than willing to help you out. I've only helped out an area pro a couple times and just met them at thier grounds. I helped set up, throw birds amongst other things. I never one time even asked to run my dog but each time they asked me if I'd like to run her. That is way better way to go about it vs starting out saying you won't do the dirty work...


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## Jiggy (Apr 14, 2003)

Jacob, I have to admit I wasn't in love with your opening post either. If Lainee is vouching for you though, I'm willing to listen to what you have to say. 
Email me at [email protected] and I'll see what I can do to help. 

May take a day or so to answer the email...I'm getting slower with that these days.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Jiggy said:


> Jacob, I have to admit I wasn't in love with your opening post either. If Lainee is vouching for you though, I'm willing to listen to what you have to say.
> Email me at [email protected] and I'll see what I can do to help.
> 
> May take a day or so to answer the email...I'm getting slower with that these days.



JUMP JACOB!!!!!! NOW!!! 

Honesty rules!!


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Jiggy said:


> Jacob, I have to admit I wasn't in love with your opening post either. If Lainee is vouching for you though, I'm willing to listen to what you have to say.
> Email me at [email protected] and I'll see what I can do to help.
> 
> May take a day or so to answer the email...I'm getting slower with that these days.


Jacob....here is opportunity and it's knocking! Get on it and don't make me regret vouching for you!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

FOM said:


> Jacob....here is opportunity and it's knocking! Get on it and don't make me regret vouching for you!


Golden chance for you. Marcy and Kenny are first rate folks and dog people.
You won't get a better Christmas present


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

FOM said:


> Jacob....here is opportunity and it's knocking! Get on it and don't make me regret vouching for you!






Couldn't agree more. Havent met Marcy but have met Kenny and he is a good dude. Get after it Jacob.
Wish I had started when I was your age, things would be much different know. I wasted 30 years just working a job.


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

born2retrieve said:


> If you are willing to come throw birds all day for me I'd certainly let you run your dog and help you do so. I don't let anyone air and feed my truck without me anyways. No one knows the dogs better then me so I make damn sure they are getting what they need. If I was closer you would be welcome. I know a few pros that might help you out. Kenny trott with horse tooth retrievers would be a good start. Look him up on his web site. He has a few others summer with him so I'm sure they would be looking for help. People on here need to put out a hand to someone wanting to learn and get into the sport.


Cheers to you , for the posotive response. How valuable is a good bird thrower in the field, and if he can shoot a decent flier ...pricless. And he only has one dog that he wants to run at the end of the day. And Jacob appears to be honest and up front, can't see him having an issue getting picked up.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

mjh345 said:


> Golden chance for you. Marcy and Kenny are first rate folks and dog people.
> You won't get a better Christmas present



If I was only 30 years younger.. what an opportunity young man.. walk through that door that just opened for your dream.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

FOM said:


> Jacob....here is opportunity and it's knocking! Get on it and don't make me regret vouching for you!


Be nice to hear how it turns out .


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## Rozet (Jul 4, 2012)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Why all the negatives here? Sure will not get the top pros but I know of several back when I lived in Wisconsin that would jump over getting a bird boy all for him to run his dog and learn. A little encouragement would go a long way, perhaps he could head to pointers because I know they like new blood and willing to exchange work for teaching.


The Pointer world is no different!!


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## Eric Fryer (May 23, 2006)

Jiggy said:


> Jacob, I have to admit I wasn't in love with your opening post either. If Lainee is vouching for you though, I'm willing to listen to what you have to say.
> Email me at [email protected] and I'll see what I can do to help.
> 
> May take a day or so to answer the email...I'm getting slower with that these days.



Jacob, Make sure and follow through with Marcy. Do not hesitate and follow through with what she says... Good luck


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## dexdoolittle (Apr 26, 2008)

Ye, everyone wonders why there is no "New" blood in the sport. All because of receptions like this. Everyone in the sport is an expert at everything. Seen it time and time again. 

Jacob go for it. What your asking is not unreasonable and happens everyday in the dog world. I gambled on a "Jacob" long ago, his name was Charlie Ross. A 16 year old kid from Canada, got denied on his first attempt to cross the border because he mentioned the word work. Tried again a month later and the rest is history. Judge and Ran several Canadian Nationals and he is barely 30.

I'd rather train a pup than start a 4 year old. Easier to establish good habits than break bad ones.

Go get it Jacob life is short.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Boykin said:


> I posted a thread last year about being a bird boy for someone in Colorado Springs. I didn't have much luck. I did however meet FOM and constantly trained with her until wrestling season started. Due to some complications I will not have my license until January, but I will figure transportation out. I am trying to plan my summer vacation around possibly doing a mentorship at your professional kennel.* I am interested in becoming a pro and learning the ropes. I do not however want to be your pooper scooper or kennel cleaner (unless you're doing it too)*. I want to be throwing birds and behind you taking notes and asking questions. I will throw birds all day, run my personal dog last and then sleep in a tent in your backyard. Thanks- Jacob


These two sentences are why Jacob got the responses he did. He has repeatedly stated on RTF (in other threads) that he'd like to be a pro. I think if he asked most pros where they started, they'd say they started by shoveling $hit. It is one thing to get with an am group or a pro and throw birds because you want to train your own dog. It is a complete other if you want to make a career of it. MO.


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Whatever, the kid is volunteering his time and labor, and in exchange just wants someone willing to invest some time back in to him so he can learn. He doesn't want to be stuck at the kennel all day. The value he is bringing is free labor, in exchange he would like to learn. It is absurd that so many have browbeaten him for his post. Obviously, not all "pros" (and I use the term very loosely as there are a good many I wouldn't let air my dog), have the capacity, need or desire to take him up on his offer, but I'm sure there are those that would. Could he have phrased it a little better? Yeah sure, but most woefully missed the point and spirit of the post. 

If he was looking for a paying job, then yeah, kennel cleaner, do whatever is asked, start at the bottom is the only real option if you bring no skills to the table. He is trying to learn some skills so he can bring something to the table as he gets older and wants to go work for someone. There will always be kennel cleaning, airing, and laborious chores unrelated to actual training to keep any operation running. I think Jacob realizes this. 

Jacob, I did exactly what you are trying to do but in the horse world when I was your age. I found several pros that were more than happy to help a kid who wanted learn. I did clean stalls, but I also got to be in the arena with them and ride several horses a day. You got a great offer here on this thread. I will join the others in saying you should jump on that and explore it vigorously. Good luck.


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## birddogn_tc (Apr 24, 2015)

Agree with Migillicutty. He phrased his first post a little wrong (he's a kid) but the good intentions are obviously there. He offered to live in a tent in your backyard for 3 months for goodness sake. I would rather shovel poop than live in a tent next to a kennel for three months... 

Afterall, Migillicutty gives me free training advice and I have yet to sleep a night in a tent in his backyard... maybe next year.

I like the kid's desire to learn. Get after it Boykin. Good luck.


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

Tobias said:


> These two sentences are why Jacob got the responses he did. He has repeatedly stated on RTF (in other threads) that he'd like to be a pro. I think if he asked most pros where they started, they'd say they started by shoveling $hit. It is one thing to get with an am group or a pro and throw birds because you want to train your own dog. It is a complete other if you want to make a career of it. MO.




I read that as Jacob saying he doesn't want to do JUST those chores - i.e., he wants to LEARN, not just do the crap jobs so to speak.

Is it part of the job? Yes. Would anyone want to volunteer to just clean poop all summer long? Nope. Picking poop and cleaning kennels is important, but it just isn't so tough that a person needs to spend 3 months to really get it dialed in. If it does take 3 months for someone to get that figured out they would probably be more qualified to be a member of congress than a pro trainer.


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## chesaka (Dec 13, 2007)

Steve Shaver said:


> I would be more than willing to talk to you about this but I will tell you right from the start that you will be pickin up s#!+ and hosin kennels. First of it only takes about 45 minutes in the morning to do kennel chores. If your doing that it frees me up to getting started with a lot of the yard work before I go to the field. It will also give me more time to be teaching you. Sounds like I may have to get you collar conditioned. I would help you all I can but you will also earn your keep, you help me and I will help you. If I'm spending all my time with you I'm not getting the work that I'm getting paid for done.
> Some here have over acted a bit but from your post I can see why. I could really use someone like you but your not going to start off by telling me what your going to do or not going to do. I was 15 once but I'm 60 now, just think about that for a bit. Running and working with your own dog is not a problem. I would treat you fair and would teach you but just like a dog and a handler it is a two way street and it takes team work. I am not that far away from you so if your serious and want to talk about it shoot me a pm and I will send you my phone number.


Young man, this sounds right to me. Every job starting at the bottom has its humbling moments. You should make the call. Perhaps you could develop this into something good for you, your dog and Steve.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

I have sent Marcy (jiggy) an Email and am awaiting a response. Thank you to all of you that have given advice and offered their help and suggestions. -Jacob


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Wish you the best Jacob. 30 yrs ago, if I had known there was such a thing as a professional retriever trainer, my path in life may have been very different. Keep your nose to the grindstone and enjoy the experiences you get.


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## ColoAngler (Mar 20, 2006)

Dave Kress said:


> For the lad wanting to learn about training retrievers.
> There are at least 3 major well respected ft pros that I know that got a start throwing birds and helping out as young teenagers. There has to be many others between the ht and ft levels earning a living or good amateurs that started early in life. For me in the early 60's my babe Ruth league baseball coach had a lab I threw for. I had labs off of that dog until the late 90's
> For the ones that want to poke at you just remember this is a kid and if he lived near me in Alabama he could throw birds and run his dog plus get paid for it. He might learn a few other things also ( mostly bad) for example how to " Roll Tide"


Amen ... thank you for the comment.


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## ColoAngler (Mar 20, 2006)

FOM said:


> I'd ask kindly, that before replying, try and be positive, Jacob is still learning and is willing to learn and willing to put in the effort.
> 
> And forgive him for having a small brown dog....I tried to convert him to the dark side, but my attempts failed?!
> 
> FOM


Yayyyy! Someone who sounds amiable to playing with YELLOW dogs!

I remember when you took me under wing and got me started. And from that I have the upmost respect for what you have done for the sport and for me. You've always been a class act, a friend, and a mentor -- and even though it's been nearly 10 years, you're wisdom is always close to me. For that, Know that I'd never suggest that we strap Ichi to a winger ... 

Best Regards,

Jeff


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

ColoAngler said:


> Know that I'd never suggest that we strap Ichi to a winger ...


You know you shouldn't plant such ideas into my head!  My guess in Ichi would think it was great fun! 

Once you get your pup you'll have to come train with us! I don't think you've been out to our new place yet.


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## Boykin (Oct 21, 2015)

We can tape some duck wings on him and put a needle on his nose. Will Dave stand in the circle first?


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