# (Creeping/Movement on line) How to control high drive 1 year old ??? HELP!!!



## Mlassiter (Dec 5, 2017)

I have a issue that I am running out of training knowledge on how to fix ! A little history on the pup, She just turned 1 this month, and is extremely high drive and amped up all the time. First off this is not the first dog I have trained or finished out, but she is by far the most high drive, crazy pup I have had the privilege to train. 
I have never had steadying issues with any dog I have trained but I also have not had one like this! Now I do know where I went wrong and tried to apply the same methods as with other dogs I have trained and should have demanded steady with this pup from day one instead of working on drive to retrieve! She was born with plenty of that!!! We all have to learn as we go ! and I did !

She has had all OB and collar conditioned, and we have followed through all steps and currently on pattern blinds. (I follow the Carr/Lardy method if that gives you a idea on my process).

So to my problem, Yes I know this dog at the very basics is breaking the sit command by creeping, raising her butt, and having happy feet and shakes uncontrollably in every muscle in her body waiting to be sent, luckily she is not vocal. Yes she knows what sit means, and knows what a collar correction is and dang gum sure knows what a heeling stick is. 

I have tried for the last 3 months to steady this pup, I have tried the heeling method (waiting till she comes back to heel before sending without saying anything) and she caught on to this good, but this does not keep her from creeping forward on every mark, I have used heeling stick for any movement, used place board trying to give her a better understanding , and have picked up every mark that she has moved on for the last month. and in the last month she has seen well over 100 marks and has been allowed to pick up 2 of them that she actually didn't raise her butt up, but she is not putting this together . Example from today. I threw the same single mark from winger 15 times, she moved every time, got a strong correction with heeling stick and was made to sit on line while I went and picked up mark. 15 marks and not once did she not move!

Yes I have been working on steady with honor/pick up dog as well and boy hahaha yea that is a nightmare, add another dog on the line and she wouldn't sit still if you tied concrete blocks to her feet 

I have to figure something out as I cannot move on in training till I get this fixed. We are ready for blind drills but I can't run blind drills with her moving on the mark. 

I stay on this pup everyday to the point I nit pick everything and demand OB on everything, but I cannot get control of this pup. She moves on marks, lunges forward on heel, and is like nothing I have ever seen. I am not afraid of giving a strong correction, but guys I am also not for pounding on a dog either. I have constantly gave her very strong corrections and it does not seem to phase her.

I am not giving up on this pup, and accept the challenge cause I enjoy training and I enjoy learning to read and understand different personalities in dogs. But this pup has me stumped, I can't get through to her. 
I guess my main question is how can I get through to this pup and make it click ? Is there anything ya'll suggest to get this pup under control other than her getting old ? I love her style and drive, but the control is a struggle.

I have tried all the tricks I know, and all the tricks I have read and been suggested and nothing is working. I like to consider myself as a decent OB trainer but this pup makes me look dumb.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

My dog is hardly the poster child of steadiness, but we've managed to do ok. I can tell you that a heeling stick on her is worthless. About the same as on a thoroughbred in the home stretch: Take a swat, get a bird.

You might try the Hillman route. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mz8o7NN8H8


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

With a young dog following Lardy, you need to have a lead on the dog and prevent movement rather than correct for it. The dog goes from unsteady, to lead steady (not pulling), to steady off lead. Do not allow movement to take place. After moving to off lead, correct at first sign of movement. It’s a gradual steadying. My first two dogs were not steady because I failed to maintain a high standard. Do not send dog for a mark if not steady. 

I now use a lot of Hillmann’s puppy stuff to start dogs. This approach has worked well for me and that’s probably the route I’d take if I had a dog like you describe.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Ideas,

1) cut a few pieces of pipe ~3 ft long, place them in separate sections ~ 4-5ft apart when you walk btw holding blinds, walk-up etc. Both your toes and Dog toes must remain on the correct side of the pipe, if dog toes go over rap toes with heeling stick, until they return to correct position. Also place a piece of pipe on line same correction. Later remove pipe, same correct for toes not with toes

2) Teach dog to back-up with you, toe to your toes (pipes also aid in this). If you move back dog has to as well, anytime she goes forward back up correct dog for being out of correct position. Sometimes handlers teach a foot scrape with this, backup foot with scrape=correction; they often use the foot scrape on the line of a test. A few pro handlers are very good at attempting to cover it .

3) Teach dog to down on command, dog can't move fwd nor tap-dance if she is on a Down. This is how I got a my high charger through HRCH. When we were walking to the line, and he'd try to creep (DOWN, movement stopped) Seen a few handlers train a dog to run from a down position, with a (really hard charger it does help). AKC doesn't have an issue with it, HRC some judges will try to micromanage you; but it's humorous when you have a dog that runs from a down and a dog that honors from a down, and the judges try to get to both handlers to get the dogs up in a sitting position before calling for birds. They Go up down up down, then usually both dogs down when the first bird is in the air. Conditioning .


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## P J (Dec 10, 2009)

I'm another Bill Hillman fan for this type of dog. The first dog I trained or handled is a creeper/breaker at nearly nine years old. I managed to get her to HRCH/MH. The HRCH was harder than the MH due to the unsteadiness.

I was introduced to Bill Hillman's training methods and have followed this with my second high drive dog. I have used Bill Hillman's "Traffic Cop" for my older dog. You may need to try that for your pup.


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## Mlassiter (Dec 5, 2017)

Alright I'm convinced to give Hillman a look, Where can I find this training information to follow, or what series video do I need ? Is there any info on the internet to expand on what MARK LITTLEJOHN posted for me ?


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

http://hawkeyemedia.net. The Traffic Cop DVD would be the place to start. His advanced material is also very good and deals some more with heeling to the line, reverse creeping for steadiness, and other topics that would be helpful trying to steady a high drive dog.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

I wouldn’t start with traffic cop. I’d start with the training a retriever puppy dvd. It incorporates traffic cop and provides enough detail so you understand maintaining balance and high standards. Don’t worry about your dog being older than the ones in the dvd. I’ve used it on a two year old with good results.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Congratulations! You are living proof that coercion does not work. You may feel that you have had some success in the past but as soon as you got a really strong willed dog those techniques proved inadequate.
Simply put, the reason you are having trouble is that you want one thing while your dog wants something else.
Everything you described says you are trying to make your dog mind when what you should be doing is trying to make your dog DECIDE to mind. To accomplish this you will need to completely change your training philosophy. When a trainer tries to make a dog mind he is making himself part of the problem.
What you should do is remove yourself from the equation and make the dog decide that it is between him and his problem. Once he decides how to solve his problem he will reliably choose the same behavior every time and he won’t resent you because you are not part of the problem.
Carry this idea to the end and you will find that your job as the trainer is to put the dog in enough situations that he decides that obeying is what he wants to do.
From then on both of you want the same thing and the conflict ceases to exist.


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

OP. IMO there are TRAINERS and HANDLERS.It is the rare person who can master both. Observe handlers at a HT/FT. You need to hire an excellent pro. DVDs/books will not cut it. DIY does not compensate for the lack of situational experience. Good luck.


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

Teach and practice a new standard of no movement except for head movement.
Any movement other than head, deny the retrieve and start over.

Start in the yard with hand thrown bumpers.
Teach pup to focus on each mark with no moment,
then cue for next mark with your body movement.





If there is any movement except head movement, deny the retrieve.
Rinse and repeat. Patience and Consistence.
Start in the yard in a low excitement atmosphere with hand thrown bumpers.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Others have really sad it but to put it a different way, you need to condition the dog to be steady by HABIT, that is just what he knows to do. He will not be completely steady if he is thinking"I'd better sit still or else I get whacked". As Lynn said coercion does not work in the long run. Condition, condition and more conditioning, very gradually increasing distractions. You don't want to correct, you want sitting by habit. I have steaded dogs using both Lardy's method on his marking videos and have used Hillman's puppy for my last two dogs. They both will work but I like Hillman as you teach the dog earlier and start the conditioning sooner. I woud suggest staring with the puppy video even though your dog is one. You need to re-start the process.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

JMHO some dogs you may just need to compromise with. I am not talking creeping but certain things. I have watched Mully a damn good dog in anyone's book, Mully will have his ass off the ground from the time the marks first go off. He has had the best training possible yet will still bring his ass off the ground from what I have seen when watching him. it's been a few years since I seen him so perhaps this has changed. we can all agree Mully plays the game very well with his ass off the ground!


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

Steadiness needs to be instilled as pups..............anything else is likely just a bandage.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> JMHO some dogs you may just need to compromise with. I am not talking creeping but certain things. I have watched Mully a damn good dog in anyone's book, Mully will have his ass off the ground from the time the marks first go off. He has had the best training possible yet will still bring his ass off the ground from what I have seen when watching him. it's been a few years since I seen him so perhaps this has changed. we can all agree Mully plays the game very well with his ass off the ground!


Mully was also trained as a young dog by my late close friend, Tom Kobach. Tom was not a stickler for line manners and it showed in Mully as a young dog and it continues until today. I am not knocking either Tom, Wayne, Randy, or Mully at all. Mully's record speaks for itself.


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## mostlygold (Aug 5, 2006)

I really like the pipes on the ground idea. I use the back up in heel and the back up prior to a retrieve but getting to the line my 4 yr old male always wants to be 2-3 steps in front. Backing up will make him back up but as soon as I move forward he is right back to being ahead. Also sits on mat with his butt even with my feet. Have to make him back up every time. Comes back with bird and sits same way. I can get correct position with a low nick but I would like him to be thinking about where he is sitting instead of me constantly reminding him. I did use Hillman puppy on my younger male and he is much more aware of where he should be. Also steadied up nicely with very little correction.


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## Kyle W (Feb 1, 2006)

I had a trainer friend place an electric collar on the back end of my high drive bitch around her waist just above the tail with the probes on the top side. You see this with some of the old school bird dog trainers when they train for steadiness. If she moved her butt even a fraction of an inch he nicked her pretty hard and it drove her butt back to the ground. Worked pretty well for us when it was paired with a healing stick tap at the same moment. Of coarse she learned when the collar was off but it gave far more attention to the healing stick when the collar was not on her waist. Over time I got the butt steadiness. Never stopped her from squatting low to the ground like a wound up spring on the front but as long as her butt didn't come off the ground I was willing to give on the minimal amount of front foot movement. My bitch is out of Ford on the top and a Cosmo bitch on the bottom. Does your dog have any similar lines. I have heard this issue arrises a lot with Cosmo bitches. And a wonderful sloppy mouth.


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## Mlassiter (Dec 5, 2017)

Kyle W said:


> I had a trainer friend place an electric collar on the back end of my high drive bitch around her waist just above the tail with the probes on the top side. You see this with some of the old school bird dog trainers when they train for steadiness. If she moved her butt even a fraction of an inch he nicked her pretty hard and it drove her butt back to the ground. Worked pretty well for us when it was paired with a healing stick tap at the same moment. Of coarse she learned when the collar was off but it gave far more attention to the healing stick when the collar was not on her waist. Over time I got the butt steadiness. Never stopped her from squatting low to the ground like a wound up spring on the front but as long as her butt didn't come off the ground I was willing to give on the minimal amount of front foot movement. My bitch is out of Ford on the top and a Cosmo bitch on the bottom. Does your dog have any similar lines. I have heard this issue arrises a lot with Cosmo bitches. And a wonderful sloppy mouth.


She is Gator Point on top, Sire is In Pursuit's Champ of Ace, and Lean Mac Lineage on bottom. She has mouthy issues as well but we have about got that fixed, I think it stems from a possession issue with her, she thinks everything is hers, kinda goes along with the high drive I guess.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> Congratulations! You are living proof that coercion does not work. You may feel that you have had some success in the past but as soon as you got a really strong willed dog those techniques proved inadequate.
> Simply put, the reason you are having trouble is that you want one thing while your dog wants something else.
> Everything you described says you are trying to make your dog mind when what you should be doing is trying to make your dog DECIDE to mind. To accomplish this you will need to completely change your training philosophy. When a trainer tries to make a dog mind he is making himself part of the problem.
> What you should do is remove yourself from the equation and make the dog decide that it is between him and his problem. Once he decides how to solve his problem he will reliably choose the same behavior every time and he won’t resent you because you are not part of the problem.
> ...


YES YES YES 

Read this a few times and if you need ideas on how to implement it, ask away!!! 

This is the key.

When the dog wants to sit there - it’ll sit there!!!


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

DarrinGreene said:


> YES YES YES
> 
> Read this a few times and if you need ideas on how to implement it, ask away!!!
> 
> ...



Darrin I have a question for you then. Why then could Wayne Curtiss one on the best Pros in MHO, who had Mully since he was I believe just ending his derby career through winning the Nationals, NOT know what you know in steadying the dog. Mully is one of the best but his ass never stays on the ground. You know something Wayne does not, fill me in, thanks. I read your and Lynn's posts seems to me you two know something the top FT pro's do not know.


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## Mlassiter (Dec 5, 2017)

DarrinGreene said:


> YES YES YES
> 
> Read this a few times and if you need ideas on how to implement it, ask away!!!
> 
> ...



YES please elaborate, I completely understand what he is saying, but the question is how do I get her to decide that its her idea ? I have denied every retrieve that she has moved on for the last 2 months, on a positive note I am getting plenty of exercise walking out and picking up marks !


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Totally agree with Lynn and Darrin - the dog has to come to the idea that sitting is 'his' idea. 

I have two examples.
Feeding time and getting out of the kennel.
All of my dogs learn from an early age that sitting is a requirement for eating. You don't get to eat until you sit and wait for the command. All of my dogs auto sit for their meals. Toby and Smarty also honor each other at meal time.

This summer will be the first time I've ever used outdoor kennels. Smarty used to jump and bark at the gate when I would approach. I decided I didn't appreciate the behavior so I began implementing a new standard. If she was sitting (with no command to do so from me) I would move forward. If she started whining or barking and jumping I moved backward. Within about 8 repetitions (2 days) she was sitting quietly until I let her out. 

She is a Mully daughter and I keep the sit standard pretty high, but she also understands what to decide if she wants to play, as with eating or getting out of her kennel.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

This problem probably started, or made itself apparent early in force fetch. You may have noticed that pup turned his head away or refused to look at you when you said fetch. That was your best opportunity to correct a bad or independent attitude with a reinforced “here”. Refusing to sit, stay sat, heel or come when called were all opportunities to correct attitude. You probably addressed these behavior issues with direct pressure.
The best tool, in my opinion, is indirect pressure. Indirect pressure is simply correcting the dog for not addressing his lesson or, as Lardy put it, “not trying hard enough” and actually falls under the heading of motivation.
These corrections are rarely delivered at low level. For instance, you command “kennel up” and the dog goes the other way. You should deliver a stiffly reinforced “here” to redirect the dog to whatever you told him to kennel up onto and give him another chance to comply. The correction was not for refusing to kennel, but for refusing to try. I know that I am splitting a pretty fine psychological hair and this probably sounds illogical on the surface but the dog will understand.
The trainer should never correct a dog for making mistakes because that will make the dog afraid of failing. But you should always motivate the dog when he does not put forth the effort.


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## [email protected] (Jul 16, 2018)

In my opinion your issue isn’t with steadiness it’s an issue with sit. Obviously all young dogs are different and require different levels of correction. I feel that when you see a high drive dog that has steadiness issues you need to get back to the core of the problem. Start in the yard no bumpers and condition sit. Condition it to point where you feel you have done too much then do it some more. This may take a month it’s boring and not much fun but to get it corrected properly you’re going to need to put in a lot of time. It obviously takes longer with high drive dogs. I’d walk the dog at heel command sit with voice and whistle I use primarily electronic conditioning and not a lot of whip. This is my preference I don’t really like the idea of intimidating the dog but at the sametime I want the dog to follow commands perfectly. I also do not raise my voice even more so with high drive dogs. I want the dog to be listening for my command if anything my commands are quieter than usual. Once the dog is sitting I’d walk around the dog. If she moves anything but her head command sit knick with the collar. I would even get to the point of walking over the dog. Run around if u have to ur trying to get her to move so u can reinforce sit. Once she is steady with this I would begin to incorporate the traffic cop program. Meaning put her at a remote sit throw a bumper don’t let her pick the bumper up. Again ur trying to get the dog to move to reinforce sit. You should be able to throw the bumper within a few feet of her without her moving. Once your at this point you can begin releasing her I would release her once out of every 4 or 5 throws. This needs to be engraved in her mind that if she moves she does not get the bird. Once she is completely steady with this drill then I’d try some hand thrown bumpers with her at ur side if she moves anything reinforce sit pick it up and start over. Then gradually move to the field. Make sure u end each session with plenty of fun bumpers to keep her spirits up but make sure you have a clearly defined cue that signals it’s a fun bumper. This is something you will have to continue throughout her life but if you do it properly it can absolutely be corrected. I train strictly field trial dogs and trust me if she’s an intelligent dog with high drive and can mark that’s a hard combination to beat. Take ur time it’ll be worth it in the long haul. I’ve got a cosmo male that I have to do this with daily but when this animal steps on the line he’s impressive to watch. 

Good Luck

Luke


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> This problem probably started, or made itself apparent early in force fetch. You may have noticed that pup turned his head away or refused to look at you when you said fetch. That was your best opportunity to correct a bad or independent attitude with a reinforced “here”. Refusing to sit, stay sat, heel or come when called were all opportunities to correct attitude. You probably addressed these behavior issues with direct pressure.
> The best tool, in my opinion, is indirect pressure. Indirect pressure is simply correcting the dog for not addressing his lesson or, as Lardy put it, “not trying hard enough” and actually falls under the heading of motivation.
> These corrections are rarely delivered at low level. For instance, you command “kennel up” and the dog goes the other way. You should deliver a stiffly reinforced “here” to redirect the dog to whatever you told him to kennel up onto and give him another chance to comply. The correction was not for refusing to kennel, but for refusing to try. I know that I am splitting a pretty fine psychological hair and this probably sounds illogical on the surface but the dog will understand.
> The trainer should never correct a dog for making mistakes because that will make the dog afraid of failing. But you should always motivate the dog when he does not put forth the effort.


Could you please explain further, like I said using Mully again, the dog wins the Nationals, the dog will go down as one of the best ever, the dog is with one of the best pros out there yet you claim to have answers top pros do not. I have listened well to many many very good pros say, "pick your battles" for example a high flyer that just wants those birds that bad, many will draw the line at no forward movement. What you are implying that this is simple to correct which I believe is not because if it was as simple as you claim, why don't the top field trial pros know what you claim to?


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Todd, you are correct. I do imply that I do things different than Pros that have excellent reputations.
Steadying a dog is one of the simplest things I do. With twenty years and over six hundred dogs behind me I have never met a dog I couldn’t steady. And keep in mind that these dogs go home to handlers that have no experience and very little training on how to handle dogs yet the dogs remain steady. And a few of them were wound just as tight as Mully and Cosmo.
I don’t subscribe to the “pick your battles” philosophy. To do so would be to accept that there was a behavior that I could not correct and that is just not part of me.
You made reference to Mully as being a successful competitor. That may be, but so was Cosmo and I believe that I could have successfully steadied both dogs. In fact I believe there is no dog I can’t train. It isn’t true but I refuse to admit it until after the fact.
There is an old saying that the only thing two dog trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong. We are all human, and as such we have to accept the fact that we are less than perfect. We share a love for the dogs and a desire to improve the breed through intelligent training and breeding. We don’t all do things the same way and we all harbor the thought that we know something that no one else knows. This is where innovation comes from.
Read Luke’s post right before yours. It is not exactly how I would do it but that approach will work, with a few modifications, with every dog.
Also remember that just because a Pro is successful does not mean that he is using the best techniques.
In Lardy’s first video he says that he knows trainers that have succeeded using techniques that he thinks are not very good simply because they work so hard at it. I have seen this as well and my advice is “work smarter, not harder”.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Could you please explain further, like I said using Mully again, the dog wins the Nationals, the dog will go down as one of the best ever, the dog is with one of the best pros out there yet you claim to have answers top pros do not. I have listened well to many many very good pros say, "pick your battles" for example a high flyer that just wants those birds that bad, many will draw the line at no forward movement. What you are implying that this is simple to correct which I believe is not because if it was as simple as you claim, why don't the top field trial pros know what you claim to?


One reason might be is Top field trial pro's don't know everything about dog training. They understand and know how to make field champions which in itself requires a lot of knowledge,,, but they may not know for example how to get a dog to lay down stylishly when hitting a certain scent. Which is related to the problem that this thread is discussing. Every discipline in dog training has it's idiosyncrasies. People who train in other venues sometimes know more about a problem and the cause of it then someone training in other venues. This problem fits more into a behavioral diagnosis than a training diagnosis. But can be remedied in both. Teach a dog how to get what it wants and you will save lots of time down the road.

Pete


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

To the OP
Lots of folks have challenges just like yours: 
Some can be fixed, some improved and some lost causes!

At 1 year old your answer is maybe 

I ll make a bold statement and say the dog is independent others may use headstrong and others may say a high prey drive 
No matter how you say it the dog works for the dog and not the team

Chances are you helped create this : unknowingly of course 
You pull into the training area - set up and off you go - truck to the line and soon pup connects to “ birds”
And your behind 

Start working in the yard- first with a lead, later with a stick. Your mission is to do heeling drills till you puke: walk forward right : left: turn around all at heel. Do this till pup submits: the first time will be forever. No marks no birds till your a team, gradually pup will learn, for you it’s a new way of life, for pup it’s the new dawn. You may not have the stamina or desire because this is a grind. 

I have one of these dogs - all the breeding, all the desire and all the talent. I ran 3 derbies while a sibling ran 20. Mind was uncontrollable yet successful. One of the better pros said you have a choice- keep running her and maybe I can fix the issue or train more - I ran 3 derbies, a year later 1 Q for a win and 18 months later we re still getting ready for all age but it will be a competitive debut. 

Several times I ve thought about selling her- it’s just so drastic to me to be buckled down 110% of the time. 
Perhaps the wildest pup with the most independents is not for me. I knew she was going to be a challenge as we chose her. 

Your choice is to modify your behavior and teach the pup a new way. 

Hope I m helping by giving you some tools 

Recently there was a litter of 2 very successful dogs that are each borderline out of control. We were called about a pup - I would have loved to have one but the chances of them being calm versus a challenge was one I didn’t want to accept 
Now watch those pups be calm and successful and I ll kick myself yet again 

Good luck
Dk


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## 42288 (Dec 28, 2007)

By the time I logged in you received a lot of good advice. I have been working on the same problem and it all points to over excitement at the line. We want excitement at the line right? I have an older lab out of show lines that is a , hate to say it, a pig at retrieving. I'd rather hang on to a rope than try to push one. So having 18 mos old Joe dance, scoot, gnash the bumper is just a challenge to overcome. He has FCs lined up on either side of his pedigree. He runs as hard for a sight blind as he does for a mark and charges back generally bashing into me. So last week we picked one thing to work on. Steady and butt glued to the ground until I say back. He already knows what he is supposed to do so basically cleaning up his sit. I started with throwing a bumper and not releasing him, throwing another, until he sat steady. I threw 15 the first time. Started over. Then he was down to 5 so 3 solid sits before I quit. Next session later in the day. He gets to 3 and solid sit for 5 or so. Every morning we do the same thing when his excitement is at it peak. We are still at that point first thing in the day. I also insisted on a quiet hold - no mouthing, chewing (the bumpers now whistle when he bites them), no slamming into me when he returns. That is all cleaning up a lot. 

Every other day we do about 10 250 ft sight blinds in various angles across our acre yard. His attention and steadiness for those has improved. He's trusting where I am pointing him albeit to a known spot. After 30 years at this and moving away from corrections I learned in the 80s I am getting much more out of this dog by building a partnership, better timing for corrections/praise and having more fun than I ever had before. No hitting, no jerking, no burning. You have to decide what is important and I would guess the relationship with the dog is the most important. I think loosening up a bit with a young dog instead of strict enforcement of positioning by hitting or burning is going to build a better partnership. "I know you want it so let's do this together." We aren't going to hunt tests or field trials though there are some days I think if only I had that time and interest again. The whole competition experience and harsh training seems too much ego is involved for me any more. I trained with big, heavy collar users Shuemaker, Carlson, Gonia, Van der Brake and a dozen others back in the 80-90s. It taught me a lot of basics but I don't use much of it any more. If that is what you're after, then I guess spend a lot of time screwing the dog down at 12 months of age . If you want a dog that is your partner, ease up. It will come and you can move forward with other training while still adding more control over time. I know because I was where you are in May and 6 months later we are doing a lot better. I was about to go see Lynn Hanigan in the spring but weather kept me on my side of the mountains. Since then I realized I did know what I was doing and Joe started getting it too. 
Before you train, think hard about where you want to go today. Make a plan and what you want to accomplish. Granted my "Plans" are often altered because some other thing comes up. Joe is wrapping around my legs when walking so we heeled to the left with a vibrate or low nick until he stays back. Also pay attention to the level of the collar and know when 5 is too much when a 1 or vibrate is plenty. Keeping the area next to you as a safe calm place will help reduce the jumpiness and anxiety at the line for both of you. Sometimes I just stand there almost to the point Joe starts looking around. 
Now, if we ever get to go hunting we'll see how much of this we can hang on to.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> Could you please explain further, like I said using Mully again, the dog wins the Nationals, the dog will go down as one of the best ever, the dog is with one of the best pros out there yet you claim to have answers top pros do not. I have listened well to many many very good pros say, "pick your battles" for example a high flyer that just wants those birds that bad, many will draw the line at no forward movement. What you are implying that this is simple to correct which I believe is not because if it was as simple as you claim, why don't the top field trial pros know what you claim to?


The top field trial pros know how to steady a retriever puppy. 

I do think some top field trial pros will sometimes take on a dog that already has some engrained habits after a successful derby career - and then have to make a choice about how to spend their valuable training time. They may very well choose to live with certain tendencies in order to continue to bring out the performances that offset the imperfections. That's the art of dog training.

I was at Mike Lardy's for a workshop in June 2009, Juice was a promising QAA dog. Jim Harvey was posting images of Juice standing on the line and certain well-known retriever folks were not too happy that these images were posted. At that time, Juice was not sitting well when the marks would get thrown, he'd stand and hover but not creep. I'm not commenting that Juice always did this, I'm just commenting on that particular time. Juice went on to win his own National with Mr. Medford. 

I was there when Mike himself discussed picking your battles. Mike also discussed the notion of 2-sided heeling. It's easy with a puppy. But when you take on an older dog that's one-sided, it may not be the best use of valuable training time to try and make the dog 2-sided. 

The original poster apparently has a 1 year old. It does not appear this dog has lots of trial exposure with engrained habits. The original poster is trying to find ideas on how to modify behavior. 

It's great that you're pointing out that sometimes folks have to choose to live with a behavior. But it's equally great that people are trying to share their experience to help. 

Good luck hunting Todd. Go have fun!

Chris


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I think one of the other things to consider when we're talking FT pro vs. normal person owning a dog is - the FT pro trains 6 days a week and the dog lives in a kennel otherwise. They don't need a dog that knows how to truly relax itself and make good decisions, except in what it does after it leaves the line. Contrast that against an owner who needs a dog to be able to be chill and not always on edge and you might come to a different conclusion about training methods. The FT Pro can pick that battle because the dog is getting constant maintenance where the owner could probably benefit by not having to put so much effort into something so basic. 

The dog that sits automatically and because they want to is a much different animal than one who is sitting there, constrained by an imaginary box the trainer created via correction/reinforcement and whatever the heck "conditioning means". 

It's not about sit - it's about being relaxed enough to think and wanting to do the behavior you're asking the dog to do. If you're forcing it on a super amped dog, you'll spend your life maintaining the behavior.

I tell my clients - I want to give them a chance to retire from training their dog, not a job to do. The focus is on relaxation, self selected behavior and not using obedience to solve issues the dog can work out for themselves with the right training set up.


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## fetchitupup (Jun 23, 2008)

I just wanted to say this is a great thread. I have a 2 year old with similar issues and very much appreciate the insight that has been provided.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

Darrin
That is an excellent observation. I guess that is why I believe the way I do.
Because I specialize in hunting dogs and don’t play the field trial games my clients have a completely different set of expectations. They want high performance but they also want a well mannered companion that won’t annoy the lady of the house. 
For that reason I rarely use my kennels. When I go to bed at night all my dogs are in the house with me.
Some are on the floor and others are competing for my warm spot on the bed. These dogs understand every nuance of my speech and they have a “two switch” personality. Calm in the house and hard charging in the field. Maybe that is why I have no steadiness or creeping problems. Looking at your opening statement I guess that makes me half normal.
Many of the top field trial pros have been heard to say that the last guy they want to find themselves running against in the last series is the one man one dog team. His training program may not be as good as the pro’s but when he is having a good day he is really hard to beat because his communication level is so high.
This thread, and most of the others that have to do with training, all have one thing in common. The OP wants an easy solution to his problems and thinks that it lies in the techniques or tools he is familiar with. The people who try to help offer advice using variations of those techniques, but no one addresses the phycology involved in getting the dog to decide to be anything except a carrier criminal.
Consequently, when the op walks to the line with his criminal he is almost always unhappy with the results. What all of you should learn from this is that it is not what you do with your dog but how you do it. The best program or techniques available are useless if they are applied improperly.
I don’t mean to detract from this site as it is the best available but if you really want to learn how to train retrievers then hook up with a successful trainer, Pro or amateur, and plan on spending several years with him. The discipline that will be required of you will be more than many of you are capable of.
I have had the pleasure of knowing many very skilled people who all agreed that learning how to train retrievers was the most difficult thing they had ever tried to do.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> the FT pro trains 6 days a week


Please offer a list of successful field trial professional trainers who train 6 days per week. They generally run 25 trials a year, they travel on Thursday and Sunday and most take Monday off. Many have 15-20 dogs to train and the young ones typically get the least attention. This is not intended to be critical but realistic and to point out your naivety.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

I find it interesting that the people with the most to say on this topic do not train retrievers for the FT or HT game, and that those who do 'are doing it wrong'. -Paul


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

I think we put too much emphasis on excitement and retrieving in puppies even after we are quite sure they have the drive and desire we want. We get them all jacked up to to retrieve ducks and bumpers because it is fun, and we want to make sure we don’t extinguish that fire. The problem is that it’s hard to put that genie back in the bottle. I think that once you know your puppy has sufficient desire and drive, then working on relaxing and choosing to sit before anything good happens is important to instilling desirable behavior. All my dogs have been pretty wild and intense. The most recent puppy I worked more on relaxing and choosing to sit. She is 12 months old and seems to be the most relaxed on the line of any so far. Credit to Jennifer Henion on the food game I started at 8 weeks. I’ll let you know once we start running trials with this one.


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## Lynn Hanigan (Dec 14, 2007)

paul young said:


> I find it interesting that the people with the most to say on this topic do not train retrievers for the FT or HT game, and that those who do 'are doing it wrong'. -Paul


I said I didn't play the games. I did not say I have not played the games. I have run and judged both field trials and hunt tests. I left them by choice.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

DarrinGreene said:


> I think one of the other things to consider when we're talking FT pro vs. normal person owning a dog is - the FT pro trains 6 days a week and the dog lives in a kennel otherwise. They don't need a dog that knows how to truly relax itself and make good decisions, except in what it does after it leaves the line. Contrast that against an owner who needs a dog to be able to be chill and not always on edge and you might come to a different conclusion about training methods. The FT Pro can pick that battle because the dog is getting constant maintenance where the owner could probably benefit by not having to put so much effort into something so basic.
> 
> The dog that sits automatically and because they want to is a much different animal than one who is sitting there, constrained by an imaginary box the trainer created via correction/reinforcement and whatever the heck "conditioning means".
> 
> ...


Darin, I had Plott hounds for years, they would flat eat a bear or die trying. It is not normal for a 55lb. dog to try to eat and kill a 450lb bear, that is breeding.The easiest thing to loose in a breeding program for Bear Hounds is grit. You cannot teach it, it is bred into the dog to eat a bear at all cost. My point being we have for years been breeding the best to the best in the FT world of retrievers, many such as myself prefer a dog with insane drive, I need it for my hunting and quite frankly do not enjoy dogs that require to be begged to retrieve while breaking ice. We have over the years bred in very driven dogs.

I think in this equation certain bred dogs, (Cosmo, Ranger, and others) you are getting a pup with drive second to none. Some do not like this type of dog because of the headaches associated with pups bred that way. I will live with the issues on the line, but I admit on my first two Ranger bred dogs, I caused. I was new to retriever training and shooting out over 100 snow geese to a six month old was no way to steady the dog! My older bitch and My Scooter dog will sit fine at FT marks but another issue on HT marks. I think you need to instill steadiness very early with dogs bred like mine. I have two 28 month olds out of my two Master Hunters these pups are steady but I really pushed steadiness early on and just now are hunting them. What I am saying once the issue is established with a high flyer you may have to pick you battles once the issue has been allowed in a dog. 

I will live with some issues and pick my battles but best to avoid the battle if you can by jumping on the issue from the start. We all learn as we go and having a 7 year old bitch that will still show her dance skills on the HT line, while her litter mate FC AFC sits like a soldier tells me it was me! I allowed it with lack of knowledge!


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## Mlassiter (Dec 5, 2017)

Lynn Hanigan said:


> Darrin
> 
> The OP wants an easy solution to his problems and thinks that it lies in the techniques or tools he is familiar with. The people who try to help offer advice using variations of those techniques, but no one addresses the phycology involved in getting the dog to decide to be anything except a carrier criminal.
> Consequently, when the op walks to the line with his criminal he is almost always unhappy with the results. What all of you should learn from this is that it is not what you do with your dog but how you do it. The best program or techniques available are useless if they are applied improperly.


Never said i was looking for the "easy solution" ! I said I was looking for recommendations on how to fix a issue on a dog that I was not familiar with the type of personality she possessed! I never claimed to be a good retriever trainer, but that is my goal in the future. I study retriever training daily and I agree the best way to learn is from a pro. BUT I also have a job, a family, and kids that have activities, and the nearest trainer from me that i trust and could train with is 3 1/2 hours from me, not exactly what I call convenient or doable several days a week! 
And I almost guarantee their methods are totally different from what you use and if I said their names you would know exactly who I was talking about!
So with that said I have to learn on my own from advice from others, and phone calls to the pro's I do know. I completely understand that training alone without help or advice is a slow process and I know I will mess up dogs along the way. But this is what I have to deal with, and what I will continue to do until I am competent and a good trainer. 
Yes I had to ask for advice because I had a dog that had a creeping issue that I did not have the knowledge to fix and my previous methods did not work. Did I learn something ??? YES I DID, Was I looking for the easy way out ??? NOPE and don't expect it to be easy! Did I admit I was using the wrong method for this dog ? YES I DID!

Lynn I am sure you are a great trainer, and I am sure your methods have been tried and tested, BUT I also guarantee you was where I was at one time and did not know very much about retriever training, and what you did know you have improved on over the years. You had to learn somewhere or from someone regardless if it was trying new things or being shown how to do it, you learned somewhere. 

Now with that said I do appreciate your help and all the others who have commented on this post, there has been many great ideas and thoughts.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

EdA said:


> Please offer a list of successful field trial professional trainers who train 6 days per week. They generally run 25 trials a year, they travel on Thursday and Sunday and most take Monday off. Many have 15-20 dogs to train and the young ones typically get the least attention. This is not intended to be critical but realistic and to point out your naivety.


I must be on the right track if that's all you got to offer as an argument Doc.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

paul young said:


> I find it interesting that the people with the most to say on this topic do not train retrievers for the FT or HT game, and that those who do 'are doing it wrong'. -Paul


Offering an alternative viewpoint doesn't mean anyone is doing anything "wrong" - and again - must be on the right track since no one seems to want to argue the merits of the strategy, but would rather throw a terd over the fence.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

TODD SCHMADL said:


> What I am saying once the issue is established with a high flyer you may have to pick you battles once the issue has been allowed in a dog.


Very true statement Todd. Training is a continuous improvement game often times when solving "problems", as opposed to having a finite end. 

I deal mostly with fearful, anxious and aggressive dogs day to day and some can't be brought around in a reasonable enough time frame to be safely kept by their current owner. It's tragic, but true. 

I think we can do a lot with retriever training if we start looking at sports like IPO though, where the dogs are far more driven and tenacious than a retriever. 

I also think we could get a lot done with less pressure than we currently see in play, which is the real reason I'm willing to take my time and get abused on here


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I must be on the right track if that's all you got to offer as an argument Doc.


 I have much more to offer but that was a good start😉


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I also think we could get a lot done with less pressure than we currently see in play, which is the real reason I'm willing to take my time and get abused on here


Well at least you learned something a fair amount of pros follow,
but they still don't work 6 days a week.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> Well at least you learned something a fair amount of pros follow,
> but they still don't work 6 days a week.


Well, phone time is $65/hr and I offered the OP an hour for free. What can be said about the rest of you pitching in to give her a hand? 

Oh wait, you're all too busy telling me that FT pros don't work 6 days a week.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> Well, phone time is $65/hr and I offered the OP an hour for free. What can be said about the rest of you pitching in to give her a hand? Oh wait, you're all too busy telling me that FT pros don't work 6 days a week.


Working and training dogs are not the same. No professional trainers who run field trials train 6 days a week your illusion notwithstanding and none that I have employed charge for telephone consultation.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Haven't seen the OP dog, so Can't really attest to the amount of Drive etc. inbred into this particular dog. I have worked with dogs of many different drive levels, most would be described as Hard-charging. Of those pretty much all could be tuaght to be semi-mannered on the line. Most with repetition and focus early on such items; you wouldn't know that they weren't ever well mannered line dogs. I say most because there is always those that are above the bell-curve; yes you can get such dogs under reasonable control, but it requires constant maintenance. No matter what you do, how well you start them off, it is just be inbred into them. It does become a choice of picking battles, you can accept that this will always be an issue; or you just never run the dog. Such dogs are a kick to run, often highly superior in other areas. I can't see a anyone not running a dog who is superior in all other areas, because of 1 issue. I will say there are better venues to run such dogs in. I quickly retired a Chopper pup from HRC tests once we got our titles, and I have a Grady pup who still runs HT occasionally with but will not be campaigning for National events. It's just not worth the constant maintenance. Now these dogs tend to have the skill set-style they prize in the competitive venues, so that might be a better option for them.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

It’s all in how they are started as puppies.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

EdA said:


> Working and training dogs are not the same. No professional trainers who run field trials train 6 days a week your illusion notwithstanding and none that I have employed charge for telephone consultation.


I'm sure you know what kind of fees can be attained in the world of pet dogs vs. field dogs Doc. I charge for phone time because I can. Again though, not sure why we are wasting time on such nitpicking crap unless you're just enjoying taunting me. 

I think the point of my post was that a pro trained dog gets a lot more maintenance than an amateur has time for. Not sure why everyone keeps driving the point of 6 days vs. 4 days or whatever. It's really irrelevant. Not sure how that gets missed. When I worked a truckload of dogs we worked 5-6 days per week unless we were in a certification, which was sort of a week long field trial. Every young dog trainer I know works that hard, along with gun dog guys I've run across and trainers who run trials but not 25 events per year. 

Point is - I made what I thought was a productive suggestion, agreed with by several people both public and private. 

So far you, Paul and Nancy have all decided your time would be better spent poking at me than helping the OP.

If I'm so stupid, then tell her what she really needs to know. Believe it or not, I'd like to hear it too and would not discount the information.


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

DarrinGreene said:


> I'm sure you know what kind of fees can be attained in the world of pet dogs vs. field dogs Doc. I charge for phone time because I can. Again though, not sure why we are wasting time on such nitpicking crap unless you're just enjoying taunting me.
> 
> I think the point of my post was that a pro trained dog gets a lot more maintenance than an amateur has time for. Not sure why everyone keeps driving the point of 6 days vs. 4 days or whatever. It's really irrelevant. Not sure how that gets missed. When I worked a truckload of dogs we worked 5-6 days per week unless we were in a certification, which was sort of a week long field trial. Every young dog trainer I know works that hard, along with gun dog guys I've run across and trainers who run trials but not 25 events per year.
> 
> ...


I tend, after many years, to agree with Darrin and Lynn on their approach to line manners/noise issues.

When a dog (a high flying nutcase that wants the bird more than life itself) decides it's better to behave a certain way because it's better for him, the results are far more solid and long lasting than heeling sticks and ecollars

You can have a dog submit to your wishes or you can have a dog make the corrrect choice because there is a reward to it.

As others have mentioned its far better to begin early than try to fix issues later but many are fixable with patience and consistency.


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## TODD SCHMADL (Sep 14, 2016)

DarrinGreene said:


> I'm sure you know what kind of fees can be attained in the world of pet dogs vs. field dogs Doc. I charge for phone time because I can. Again though, not sure why we are wasting time on such nitpicking crap unless you're just enjoying taunting me.
> 
> I think the point of my post was that a pro trained dog gets a lot more maintenance than an amateur has time for. Not sure why everyone keeps driving the point of 6 days vs. 4 days or whatever. It's really irrelevant. Not sure how that gets missed. When I worked a truckload of dogs we worked 5-6 days per week unless we were in a certification, which was sort of a week long field trial. Every young dog trainer I know works that hard, along with gun dog guys I've run across and trainers who run trials but not 25 events per year.
> 
> ...



Darin I enjoy your posts and believe you truly have information to offer many of us. The two you mention never hesitate to voice their opinions while bashing others as if their way is the only way and it is never done in a polite way offering an opinion. I train my own dogs because I enjoy it and two, writing a big fat check every month may advance my dogs career but that is not why I have them. I enjoy the journey fail/pass don't matter, I am learning and I have some pretty nice hunting dogs as a result. Keep posting Darin I learn from you so thanks.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

DarrinGreene said:


> I'm sure you know what kind of fees can be attained in the world of pet dogs vs. field dogs Doc. I charge for phone time because I can. Again though, not sure why we are wasting time on such nitpicking crap unless you're just enjoying taunting me.
> 
> I think the point of my post was that a pro trained dog gets a lot more maintenance than an amateur has time for. Not sure why everyone keeps driving the point of 6 days vs. 4 days or whatever. It's really irrelevant. Not sure how that gets missed. When I worked a truckload of dogs we worked 5-6 days per week unless we were in a certification, which was sort of a week long field trial. Every young dog trainer I know works that hard, along with gun dog guys I've run across and trainers who run trials but not 25 events per year.
> 
> ...


Darrin,

I know that you have amassed much more knowledge about training retrievers and preparing them for Hunt test and Field trials than I have with your ONE dog.

As such, I will bow to your superior knowledge on any subject you choose to give your opinion on.

If the OP wants to retain your services, I am fine with that.

I will say this, though; It would be a cold day in hell before I would. -Paul


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

paul young said:


> Darrin,
> 
> I know that you have amassed much more knowledge about training retrievers and preparing them for Hunt test and Field trials than I have with your ONE dog.
> 
> ...


Well Paul, I don't suppose you'd be my ideal client so I'll concede to your opinion on that. 

First thing - you're forgetting the other 100 or so retrievers I worked with, under some great young dog guys who have talent and work ethic beyond anything generally posted on this board. 

Next, I'd ask you and others to keep in mind that there are a few ways to get pretty much anything done with a dog. 

Also, take note of the fact that I'm never here talking about how to improve a dog's marking, handle poison birds or any other complex "retriever" concepts. 

We're talking in this thread about getting an amped up do to do what's probably the simplest behavior possible, sit calmly and wait to be sent for a toy reward.

That behavior is in play throughout the dog training world, from working dogs, to agility, competitive obedience, IPO, french ring... you name it - in every sport there is some degree of either control or cooperation required of the dog to earn a reward. 

Throughout the pet dog world we often see dogs who struggle with reliability on simple tasks like this because of their mental state also. These dogs know what to do, and will cooperate in low arousal situations but tend to fail once the arousal grows to a certain point. 

I dog that bites is aroused in a very similar way to a dog that can't sit still at the starting line of a competitive exercise. 

So - you can be as arrogant and phase 2 as you like Paul, but in the end, the 2,000+ behavior cases I've worked professionally in the past 6 years also gives me something to offer a person who's trying to get a retriever to do a very simple task.

In closing - you would think (well I would anyway) that the rate of failure among amateur trainers with such a simple task, when they try to imitate the "tried and true" methods of top pros would send people looking for a better way. I think it has actually done that in a big way with Hillmann's material becoming so popular in recent years. Personally I'm happy to see that direction. 

So keep doing what you do and stay stuck in whatever rut you like. I've moved on to more dog friendly methods. 

If you don't like me advocating for people to start thinking about the methods they use as it relates to success, humane training styles and caring for their dog along the way, please block me. You'd be in what I imagine you'd consider good company. 

To everyone else - thanks for thinking with an open mind and wondering how you might do things better. I'm no expert but I will give you any information I can if it makes you more humane and successful with your dog. I'm easy to find.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

DG, "Thank you!"


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Mlassiter said:


> I have a issue that I am running out of training knowledge on how to fix ! A little history on the pup, She just turned 1 this month, and is extremely high drive and amped up all the time. First off this is not the first dog I have trained or finished out, but she is by far the most high drive, crazy pup I have had the privilege to train.
> I have never had steadying issues with any dog I have trained but I also have not had one like this! Now I do know where I went wrong and tried to apply the same methods as with other dogs I have trained and should have demanded steady with this pup from day one instead of working on drive to retrieve! She was born with plenty of that!!! We all have to learn as we go ! and I did !
> 
> She has had all OB and collar conditioned, and we have followed through all steps and currently on pattern blinds. (I follow the Carr/Lardy method if that gives you a idea on my process).
> ...


Hi,

I'm sure that you are very frustrated that this problem is preventing your dog from advancing in training.

The fix is simple, but long, and will test your patience to the utmost. It does not involve being a canine psychologist, "tricks", alternative training methods or, really anything that has not been done before on many, many thousands of retrievers.

You now have an ingrained behavior (habit) which is counter to your goals for this dog. In order to bring her around, you need to stop the behavior and begin the long, sometimes boring process of creating a new habit which is productive to these goals.

Your dog needs to go back on lead. For a very long time.

You need to start with heeling exercises, using a Choke collar with a 6' lead. Forward, backwards and sideways. Begin and end each micro sequence with a sit command. Correct any time the dog does not IMMEDIATELY SIT. Index as though you were doing a wagon wheel drill WITH NO BUMPERS. Correct with ONE sharp tug any time the dog does not move with you. Praise when the dog is doing what you desire, but don't overdo it. Do 3 sessions per day until you have 3 consecutive days of perfect or nearly perfect (1 correction, no more). Expect this to take weeks, not days.

Now heel forward, command sit and continue walking. When she doesn't immediately sit (she won't), correct with the lead and repeat. Do this until you are getting 100% compliance. It shouldn't take too long because you have laid a solid foundation with the previous exercises.

Next, repeat the exercise and when she sits, continue until the lead is ALMOST taut. turn and face the dog and gently tug. Expect her to try to come to you. CORRECT by raising the hand holding the lead as high as you can and COMMAND SIT. Repeat and repeat and repeat. When you have complete compliance, steadily pull on the lead. She should be digging in, resisting you. Praise and call her to you. Praise some more. repeat and repeat and repeat. Any backsliding AT ALL needs to be corrected with the lead.

OK, she now fully understands a correct response to sit. Time to up the ante, and get her retrieving again. 

LEAVE THE CHOKER AND LEAD ON!!!! The lead is to be slack at all times. ANY TIME she moves forward, correct with the lead. Also, at this time, add a heeling stick to be used with the hand not holding the lead. Keep it tight to your leg. The correction with the stick is simultaneous to the correction with the choke collar. The actual correction is a mild tap on the shin. This will encourage the dog to move backwards, into the correct heel position. Pick up the bumper. and repeat. Do this in a mowed lawn environment. No factors or cover. 4 inch tall grass. 20 or 30 yards distance.

Obviously, you will need help with this. They need not be the best thrower in the world. They DO need to understand what you are trying to accomplish and be willing to repeatedly pick up the throw and repeat, and repeat, and repeat.

When she sits WITHOUT MOVEMENT simply drop the lead and send her. That's why the short grass without obstructions. When she returns, command heel and reinforce with sit command when she is at your side. If she doesn't IMMEDIATELY SIT, correct her using the lead, only. PRAISE her if she does.

You're going to need to do a LOT OF THIS! Think in terms of weeks. At this time, you can re-start lining and handling drills, but you'll need a long line for the handling drills. MAINTAIN THE STANDARD YOU HAVE SET!!!

Now, up the ante again and begin using birds for this exercise. EXPECT her to backslide. Correct as before. Use praise as before. Again, think in terms of weeks. When you have had T LEAST 5 sessions without correction, add the E-collar, but keep the lead and heeling stick. Add a second bird to the exercise. Begin to transfer the correction to the E-collar whenever warranted.

When she is doing what's expected, you can begin to think about transitioning to off lead work. ANY backsliding- well, you know what to do.

Good luck! I hope she turns out to be everything you ever wanted!-Paul


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Excellent post Paul, by one who has trained sans collar, Amish, whatever you call it, to success in the field trial and hunt test venues. and trained that way for a long time.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Great post, Paul.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Very good post. I might add, our situation.

Have a very nice girl, Charles. She has a lot on the ball, believes she can do anything.
But....she also had some bad line habits which our pro thought, would keep her from being successful.
He wanted her to not run any trials for an entire season. While he tried to establish good habits.

Been around a long time. Know enough to know, what is over our head. So that is what we did. Took the advice and help from a pro we trust.
Point of all this, it took *9 months*. With someone who really knows what he is doing.
She then won 2 opens, and also has 2 am wins.

I know you don't want this advice, op. But, that is what you need to do. Find someone to help you. Someone who knows the FT/HT game.
I think it is very unlikely, you will be able to do this yourself. My husband couldn't.

.These dogs are very smart, they can read every inch of your body language. You are likely doing things, she is reading, that you don't even know you are doing. Many can also be quite sensitive, and too much pressure....mental or physical... can really destroy a good working attitude. Maintaining balance in such a dog....very difficult.

Good luck to you! I honestly feel, you are in over your head.
We were, with Charles.
It really is all about good habits. That doesn't come easily or quickly.

Find the right pro, op. I promise you, the results will be amazing. And, if not, then you will know to move on.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

I've read a lot of creeping/steadiness posts on the forum and Paul, that was about the best advise I've seen on here regarding it.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

I like Paul's post as well; I would suggest using a flat "tab" rather than a lead for when you get to the online choker-retrieve portion. Tabs don't get caught in items, nor around your ankles . And I might use a pinch collar instead of a choker = easier correction also less apt to get caught on items.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Appreciate you taking the time to write down how you'd approach the process Paul. Sincerely, seriously - I appreciate the effort. 

I don't have to agree to appreciate you taking the time. All information and input is valuable to me personally.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Here are a couple of tested approaches that have worked in the past;



> WE have developed a little creeping issue in the Finished tests.
> 
> A LION HUNTER gave me this tip and we applied it last night.
> I am not saying this is the "ONLY" way, it is 1 way!
> ...





So, you have this issue, props to you for trying to fix it.
Often here everyone wants to tell you what you SHOULD HAVE DONE.

Here are some things from pretty reputable pro trainers that have used these methods and they helped.

All the best to you, this is 1 of the 2 toughest issues to face for an amateur.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

More;
Sent to me years ago by Janie Hoctel, thanks Janie!


> Force or Correction?
> Reconditioning the dog's mind
> 
> written by Butch Goodwin
> ...


Part II next


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Part II;



> When the dog is reliably moving with you under all circumstances in the yard, it is time to start over again out in the field. Repeat the entire process in the field, starting with hand-thrown bumpers until he is giving you the response that you expect. When this is solid, you can move on to simple single marks and then multiple marks and eventually multiple marks with a flyer being shot from the line. If the dog creeps up on you anytime during the process, then you must condition yourself, at the same time, to step backward using continuous stimulation and hold the button down until the dog is in place. If at times he is unable to maintain focus during a mark, use a slip cord through the prong collar and snap it backward without talking.
> 
> "Next, go to your club fun trial or a group training session to imitate a trial and repeat the exact same procedure," Pete said. "And remember - do not say a word. You may find that you might even occasionally have to leave the line and review the earlier steps if the dog is not keeping his eye on you.
> 
> ...


Good luck!!!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Pete said:


> One reason might be is Top field trial pro's don't know everything about dog training. They understand and know how to make field champions which in itself requires a lot of knowledge,,, but they may not know for example how to get a dog to lay down stylishly when hitting a certain scent. Which is related to the problem that this thread is discussing. Every discipline in dog training has it's idiosyncrasies. People who train in other venues sometimes know more about a problem and the cause of it then someone training in other venues. This problem fits more into a behavioral diagnosis than a training diagnosis. But can be remedied in both. Teach a dog how to get what it wants and you will save lots of time down the road.
> 
> Pete


If you ask a top FT pro they'll tell you they don't know everything also.


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## Illini Coot Killr (Feb 21, 2011)

Don't know about anyone else but I see a lot more similarities than differences between the approaches to solving this problem than Paul, Darrin (I think advocating the Hillman approach), and road kill ( using Butch Goodwin's method) would probably care to admit.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Goodwin is writing about our own "Pete", himself a retriever guy but also an accomplished specialist in aggression issues. 

I'm more down that line (Pete's) than Hillmann, although I like a lot of what Bill teaches in his materials, just to clarify.

I have used Sharon's method with several retrievers (although supposedly I don't train them) with great results and know a few young dog guys who do it also (I learned it from them). 

I'll have some ideas to ponder coming in the futures (hecklers be damned).


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## minnducker (Jan 29, 2010)

DarrinGreene said:


> Goodwin is writing about our own "Pete", himself a retriever guy but also an accomplished specialist in aggression issues.
> 
> I'm more down that line (Pete's) than Hillmann, although I like a lot of what Bill teaches in his materials, just to clarify.
> 
> ...


A couple things in the initial post, if clarified, might help clarify what needs to be done. 
OP wrote “I am not afraid of giving a strong correction, but guys I am also not for pounding on a dog either”. Think about what you consider a “strong correction” vs “pounding on a dog”. In general from what was posted, my impression is that more force for correction is needed on the line. This may be something you choose not to do. I don’t know the dog and it may be beyond what I’ve seen. That’s fine. But remember, “the force of correction must exceed the force of cause” (Rex Carr).
Also, OP wrote “I cannot move on in training till I get this fixed. We are ready for blind drills but I can't run blind drills with her moving on the mark”.
Why not? There’s a ton of work to do to advance a dog on handling. Double T, Lining drills, swim by, angle backs, angle entries, plus any number of advanced handling drills people have come up with over the years. I’d say go ahead with these even though your dog creeps on marks? All the blind drills and blind training is an extension of OB training in different circumstances and at a distance. Over the course of a few months of doing this, you will use the e-collar and other means of corrections dozens of times. More OB control on blinds can’t hurt the OB at the line for creeping or anything else. Also, the whole process of training a dog to handle and run blinds places a lot of responsibility on the dog to understand what the handler wants, and challenges the dog to make decisions that result in success and reward for the dog. All that should help with the issue on marks.


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