# Healing/Creeping



## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

Hi All

I just got done running a Seasoned Hunt Test, My just turned 4 year old BLM needs two more passes.

He did well on the water series and the land series, nailing all the marks, and the blinds. 

I failed because of pulling on the lead, some excessive creeping on the go bird on land series also. He also was creeping out in front of me on the walk up. It was a rainy/miserable day and he was pretty jacked up. 

I have always used an e-collar for heal, a plastic stick for hitting him on the butt more recently, if he creeps. (I'm probably to gentle with the stick as I do not want to hit my dog in any way) I bought a pinch collar but really have only used that once. I will be using it from now on in training walking to the line, etc. 

Does anyone have any suggestions as to getting him to heal better? Also, he creeps up further basically just on the 2nd bird being thrown, the go bird. 

The last couple training sessions I've had someone standing behind us at the line and if he raises his butt to creep, he gets whacked on the butt with the stick. But, it didn't help us this weekend. This dog has never broke in his life, but I have to get the creeping thing stopped.

Thanks for any advice.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I'd put the pinch collar on him with a short tab and enforce sit. I'd give him a pretty stout jerk if he moved/crept. I would also, reverse heel with a light nick before sending him on every mark in training(even fun bumpers). If he's conditioned he must move backwards before he can go forwards, the creeping at tests should go away(or at least be greatly reduced). If he doesn't reverse heel well, you will need to practice that and maybe start with the pinch collar and training tab there as well.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

Agree with Jeff. Also stop running test until you have this fixed. Title is worthless if the dog learns he can cheat at tests but not in training. Get him completely steady before any more testing.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

So if you were moving forward and something hit you from the back, would you back up into that thing or move forward more quickly? I know what I would do. 

Why don't you actually teach the dog to heel and sit/stay in a step-wise, well thought out manner with lower level temptations, rather than knocking the sh## out of him in the most exciting environment he ever gets into? 

Recommendation - get the Hillman heeling materials and start over. Stop running marks and blinds for the summer and reset his basics.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

I would stand still ,do nothing and say nothing.!
No need for pinch.prong,electric or stick . Let the dog figure it out. 
A simple short slip lead with enough slack that the dog corrects it'self. 
Day one with a helper throwing over 100 marks ,and the dog doesn't get any,even if it doesn't move a muscle on number 99 ! 
Day two repeat ,........and when you get 100 marks thrown with the dog not moving a muscle ,you can take one step forward ....then two then three , if the dog pulls on one ,two or three, go back to sit and repeat (some have been conditioned to creep) .
No command ,heel,or here, or even sit ! 
Even the dumbest/smartest dog in the world will figure it out . 
'If pressure caused it pressure will fix it' . Loads of pressure on a dog 'not getting' a mark ,just as much pressure as a dog 'wanting' a mark...creating early in training that desire to get 'Go'.
The behaviour with blinds will become extinct ,because the re-conditioning with the marks has created a better heeling dog any way . 
(But that's just my personal approach)


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

You have been given good advice. A FIX will take time and completely new methods. The band aid approach will work and will get you through a few tests. You can set the dog up and apply a harsh correction. The result will probably be an HR title. The band aid will fall apart as you run more tests and the dog will become more and more test wise. You will have a hard time moving the dog to Finished.

Many of us have walked this path. My Annie dog was the poster child for band aid fixes. It now becomes a philosophical question: Are you more interested in the HR title or do you want to develop the best dog possible? The harsh corrections will cause a nervous dog and the "ghosts" will show up at inopportune times. I spent an entire summer rehabbing her and ended up with a dog I could run with pride. My methods were remarkably similar to those Polmaise describes. 

I always remember a quote but cannot remember who to attribute it to: " A good dog should be able to handle some bad training". Wish I had a video of my first Finished failure. Annie overcame lots of bad training.


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## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

Hey Darrin

Why don't you come train with me instead of just accusing someone of doing something like Knocking the sh## out of the dog.............. I have never done that to any dog I've owned. He gets a whack on the butt but it's hardly that. 

The dog has always been great at sitting at the line, but I think adding multiple marks has led him to creeping up on the 2nd/3rd marks. 








DarrinGreene said:


> So if you were moving forward and something hit you from the back, would you back up into that thing or move forward more quickly? I know what I would do.
> 
> Why don't you actually teach the dog to heel and sit/stay in a step-wise, well thought out manner with lower level temptations, rather than knocking the sh## out of him in the most exciting environment he ever gets into?
> 
> Recommendation - get the Hillman heeling materials and start over. Stop running marks and blinds for the summer and reset his basics.


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## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

The dog has been taught since he was 3 months old to sit/stay and has always been very obedient. This has only recently became a problem because of multiple marks or walk-up/heal situation. 

I appreciate all the other peoples advice that actually give me advice, because they've been in the same situation. 

So before you go and give me another lecture Darrin, back off your high horse!!!!





DarrinGreene said:


> So if you were moving forward and something hit you from the back, would you back up into that thing or move forward more quickly? I know what I would do.
> 
> Why don't you actually teach the dog to heel and sit/stay in a step-wise, well thought out manner with lower level temptations, rather than knocking the sh## out of him in the most exciting environment he ever gets into?
> 
> Recommendation - get the Hillman heeling materials and start over. Stop running marks and blinds for the summer and reset his basics.


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## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

I like that approach!!! And some of the others advice also!!!!





polmaise said:


> I would stand still ,do nothing and say nothing.!
> No need for pinch.prong,electric or stick . Let the dog figure it out.
> A simple short slip lead with enough slack that the dog corrects it'self.
> Day one with a helper throwing over 100 marks ,and the dog doesn't get any,even if it doesn't move a muscle on number 99 !
> ...


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## A team (Jun 30, 2011)

Creeping can get out of hand quick and a dog that creeps must be maintained , I have great little bitch right now that has a tendency to bounce her front feet or creep, 

I use a platform (not a mat) when I train her I do not watch the birds as they are thrown I watch her , bounce or a creep is addressed with low e collar stimulation and I reinforce sit. Darrin is correct by instructing not to correct the dog by giving pressure with a whip stick on the hind quarters , this will drive the dog forward which is counter productive to what you are trying to accomplish.
"
Take your time in the holding blind and going to the line (mat) , maintain a very high standard on heal, any excessive forward momentum must be met with a correction , command "heal" quietly and back up. And if the healing is not to standard return to the holding blind and repeat.

Good luck I'm sure you'll get it worked out. I'd personally rather have a dog that charges the line a bit than a dog I have to drag to the line.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

First, Forging on a heel and creeping off the line are two different things.

Forging is a result of bad technique, when using the stick and collar and not conditioning your dog to pivot correctly. The first objective with OB is to pay attention to your body movements. Stop when I stop, turn when I turn, back up when I back up. Only stick the dog on the tail, when you stop and sit. I also add the collar. When conditioning the dog to sit. Back up, stick the dog on the chest or fore leg. Turn, stick the dog on the hip, in the direction you want them to turn. When you can combo all these together and turn the dog in a 180 degree circle. You are on your way.

Creeping is the result of a bad sit. " Sit means Sit " Once you condition the dog to sit. Then the fun begins. 

I will assume that you do not use place boards. Place the dog out by themselves, get a lawn chair and have a beer. 25 minutes will do. If they move they get a correction.( with a sit) Once this is done, add the distractions. Have your helpers do what ever they can to get the dog to move. ( without touching them) If they move they get a correction.( with a sit ) Then add short marks. if they move they get a correction.( with a sit) At this point. you are with the dog on the line and you will go and get the bird.
Only after all this is done and you are satisfied. You will send for the retrieve.

Keith


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

A team said:


> I'd personally rather have a dog that charges the line a bit than a dog I have to drag to the line.


From here on in '*Marty*' you are most likely going to get semantics. 
I personally would rather have '_Johnny Cash'_ . 'walk the line'. ..


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## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

polmaise said:


> From here on in '*Marty*' you are most likely going to get semantics.
> I personally would rather have '_Johnny Cash'_ . 'walk the line'. ..


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

If you haven’t already the search function will give multiple threads on this subject.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Neosporin helps healing.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Neosporin helps healing.


That right there is funny.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

martyhanson23 said:


>


You must take into account. " The left side of the ponds stock is much different then ours"

I'm done.Good luck.

Keith


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

I'm thinking about naming my next pup Ernest Angley. Guaranteed to be a great healer


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## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

It'll all be good. I'll work on it, use some of the various pieces of advice I got from all of you. 

I'm not overly worried about it. Everyone had something to offer I guess, except Darrin. 

Accusing me of beating my dog, which is far from the truth. I don't know him and he doesn't know me. 





truthseeker said:


> You must take into account. " The left side of the ponds stock is much different then ours"
> 
> I'm done.Good luck.
> 
> Keith


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Neosporin helps healing.


You should try it more often 
It might help with the walk and talk . ;-)
I watch all your videos ..lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPs3_jNBoKM


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I hope you know several people were kidding.
Bama, I had to google Ernest. He is not an everyday name here in Texas.
Truth, I think a left turn is the long cut even from CA.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I hope you know several people were kidding.
> Bama, I had to google Ernest. He is not an everyday name here in Texas.


pfft ..even I knew about Ernest ! He sells programs to folk that don't know any better ,then gets a following . Disciples who have seen the light . Texas I hear takes a while ,but they get there in the end . ....
'Chris' I'll take that call ..I'm on holiday with only a few in the yard.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

martyhanson23 said:


> The dog has been taught since he was 3 months old to sit/stay and has always been very obedient. This has only recently became a problem because of multiple marks or walk-up/heal situation.
> 
> I appreciate all the other peoples advice that actually give me advice, because they've been in the same situation.
> 
> So before you go and give me another lecture Darrin, back off your high horse!!!!


Nobody accused you of anything except getting your dog in over his head when his basics aren't solid, which is exactly what you did, whether you like the way I say it or not. 

This "recently" became a problem because the dog isn't ready for the work you're asking him to do, otherwise, he wouldn't be failing. 

It's not because of walk ups of multiples, it's because the dog isn't ready, plain and simple. 

It's your job to get him ready, whether you like it or not and whether you like being told you have the cart before the horse is irrelevant.

I'm easy to find if you want to make a trip out east and learn more about how to do obedience that holds up under high levels of distraction.

It's what I do for a living. I'd be glad to fit you into the schedule somewhere. 

Hillmann is a good stepwise approach. Robert's (Polmaise) advice also good and as patches go - will hold up better than most. 

Good luck with your dog. Now me an my horse are outta here.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> First, Forging on a heel and creeping off the line are two different things.
> 
> Forging is a result of bad technique, when using the stick and collar and not conditioning your dog to pivot correctly. The first objective with OB is to pay attention to your body movements. Stop when I stop, turn when I turn, back up when I back up. Only stick the dog on the tail, when you stop and sit. I also add the collar. When conditioning the dog to sit. Back up, stick the dog on the chest or fore leg. Turn, stick the dog on the hip, in the direction you want them to turn. When you can combo all these together and turn the dog in a 180 degree circle. You are on your way.
> 
> ...


Hey Keith think of it this way - what if they just weren't so excited and knew that the only way to get that bird was to calm down and get in the correct position?

Forging and creeping come from the same origin "I'm so excited about the bird I forgot what I was supposed to do".

Address the excitement and the problems go away  

Just a perspective to think about sometime.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

martyhanson23 said:


> It'll all be good. I'll work on it, use some of the various pieces of advice I got from all of you.
> 
> I'm not overly worried about it. Everyone had something to offer I guess, except Darrin.
> 
> Accusing me of beating my dog, which is far from the truth. I don't know him and he doesn't know me.


WOW you took that completely wrong - Sorry (sincerely) about that. 

No need for a stick these days in any part of training except possibly as a guide post. Just my perspective.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

1. Stop running events. 
2. Increase your standards in training - it's very likely your standard aren't high enough. A slight move forward with one foot becomes 3 or 4 feet at a test or trial. You should be closely watching your dog on the line for movement and not the birds. Heeling and sitting are 2 different things. If I'm going to the mat and I have to say "heel," it's accompanied by a correction with me backing up. They have to come back to me. It creates a scenario where I can silently back up and the dog will back up with me. 
3. Increase the excitement level/temptation in training to proof the new habits. This may be shooting flyers, training in a large group, throwing full out multiples, etc. 
4. Don't run any more events until the dog does the right thing without correction under exciting circumstances in training. 

There is no quick fix. Good luck.


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## Richard Fuquay (Jun 4, 2006)

I recently went through this with my chessie. As we started running tests this spring rock solid steadiness slipped into creeping and finally breaking when we were trying to get his last senior pass. After reviewing some great threads here it became obvious to me that I had let his obedience training slip. 3 weeks of ob bootcamp and he was steady in the next test and completed the title. Lesson learned. We now do obedience work regularly and enforce it in the field more rigidly.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

Charles C. said:


> 1. Stop running events.
> 2. Increase your standards in training - it's very likely your standard aren't high enough. A slight move forward with one foot becomes 3 or 4 feet at a test or trial. You should be closely watching your dog on the line for movement and not the birds. Heeling and sitting are 2 different things. If I'm going to the mat and I have to say "heel," it's accompanied by a correction with me backing up. They have to come back to me. It creates a scenario where I can silently back up and the dog will back up with me.
> 3. Increase the excitement level/temptation in training to proof the new habits. This may be shooting flyers, training in a large group, throwing full out multiples, etc.
> 4. Don't run any more events until the dog does the right thing without correction under exciting circumstances in training.
> ...


Good post Charles. These dogs become test/trial wise very quickly. Even after all this off season training, run a few back-back tests and the dog will remember how to creep.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> Address the excitement and the problems go away


Darrin, could you elaborate on this point? Interested to hear your thoughts


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

bamajeff said:


> Darrin, could you elaborate on this point? Interested to hear your thoughts


That's a really long post Jeff but as you've seen with your latest prospect - energy and obsession lead to "unconscious" behavior sometimes, which can be hard to correct with direct intervention, since the dog doesn't really realize he's doing what he's doing in the first place, thus can't consciously make a different choice. 

Whining at the line is potentially the easiest example for people to understand.

You have a very excited, energized dog who's behavior you've reined in with a prong, or e collar or some other form of "do as I say" training. 

The dog wants the bird. Your training and you want him to sit there. He's very energized and internally frustrated. That energy is leaking out through is whining. 

It's like a balloon you blew up and then held the mouth piece apart, or filling your lungs then slowly emptying them though a kazoo. 

The dog doesn't really recognize that he's making that noise, so if you try to correct for it, it can either crush/completely distract the dog OR what usually happens is that the behavior either stays the same or gets worse. 

Getting the dog to relax and think about what he's going to do rather than having him energize and obsess over a predictable outcome is the key to getting rid of the behavior. 

Many ways to accomplish that and the best retriever trainers have it dialed. 

I do a lot of work with a specific focus on this concept, so I see line manners (and may other issues) in a very different way than most people.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> That's a really long post Jeff but as you've seen with your latest prospect - energy and obsession lead to "unconscious" behavior sometimes, which can be hard to correct with direct intervention, since the dog doesn't really realize he's doing what he's doing in the first place, thus can't consciously make a different choice.
> 
> Whining at the line is potentially the easiest example for people to understand.
> 
> ...


Ok, can you briefly describe what the underlined portion above might consist of? Do you mean away from the line, online after birds have been thrown, etc? How specifically would you get the ultra high drive dog to relax in a high excitement situation?


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## bshaf (Apr 29, 2015)

This thread is very interesting and relevant to me as I'm currently revamping my views on yard work and what my standards need to be. 

I just attended a Dennis Voigt seminar and it truly opened my eyes to what line manners are. My dog was loose to say the least, a creeper which I allowed in an effort to push the distance on marks.

I could be putting my own spin on what Darrin is trying to say based on what I plan/need to do with my own dog... But, you need to teach the dog how to be calm/focused and how to be excited yet maintain his focus. Hillman's early puppy video says, "in order to teach a puppy to be quiet without barking, you need to teach him to bark..." Teach both sides and maintain the balance. 

I've been far too fast to advance the work, in doing that, I let my standards slip.

"Simply the task, not the standard..." Was said dozens of times... Meaning, if your dog can't handle a shot and a duck being thrown... Simplify, throw something he can sit and watch calmly, without moving an inch. Establish and teach the dog a new standard and maintain it... Which seems to be what most are saying.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> Hey Keith think of it this way - what if they just weren't so excited and knew that the only way to get that bird was to calm down and get in the correct position?
> 
> Forging and creeping come from the same origin "I'm so excited about the bird I forgot what I was supposed to do".
> 
> ...


I thought I was done. "guess not" A challenge is a challenge.

Well, that's a captain obvious answer. Now tell us what you did to resolve the problem.

Darrin, I have been doing other thing and need a up date. Are you still doing OB and have you built a FC or AFC. Last time I was on the main forum. You where still working with group training and had no huntin dog experience.

This is not a hit job. Just curious.

PS:
If you think that a stick is not used. You might give Joel Monroe a call. He is one of the best K-9 trainer in the world. I have seen his work and my best friend worked with him for over a year.

Keith


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

truthseeker said:


> I thought I was done. "guess not" A challenge is a challenge.
> 
> Well, that's a captain obvious answer. Now tell us what you did to resolve the problem.
> 
> ...


Well I could say forget it Keith because 99% of the people here discussing things (you included, I believe) haven't ever made an FC-AFC, but here's some stats to date...

The first dog I trained for field work was a MH 5 for 5 

After that I worked 2 years under various professional retriever, military and LE trainers, and was part of fielding something like 100 handling retrievers for bomb work in Afghanistan.

Since then I have about 1,800 dogs under my belt of various ages, breeds and temperaments, along with their owners who have the same variety of viewpoints. 

My current mentor is a 3x national schutzund champ who has coached many students to similar accomplishments. 

I've been very lucky in the people and opportunities I've run across. 

I routinely solve problems from simple jumping and leash pulling to excessive barking, dog/dog and dog/human aggression. 

If you don't want to hear or listen to what I have to say, that fine. No one has to take anything I say seriously. You can even block my posts!

I proposed that idea to you because I (incorrectly) remembered you as someone who wasn't all about "If your name isn't Lardy you're full of crap". 

I'll chat with Jeff a bit, having talked with him and helped with a perspective that solved a noise issue. 

You're welcome to take from that what you like or ignore it all together. 

Good training!


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

bamajeff said:


> Ok, can you briefly describe what the underlined portion above might consist of? Do you mean away from the line, online after birds have been thrown, etc? How specifically would you get the ultra high drive dog to relax in a high excitement situation?


You would (as always) identify situations/activities with lower levels of excitement and teach the dog to be calm in those situations, then progress through situations with increasing difficulty. 

Varying up your pattern is helpful in a lot of cases also, and after a dog is taught a skill, just blocking the retrieve and making them think about how to earn it will fix a significant number of problems.

If you're on Facebook, send me a friend request or like my business page. I post some videos that you might find helpful from time to time. 

I'll bet your dog is excited coming out of the crate/kennel, the truck, the house, any time he sees a bumper, bird, holding blind or other training equipment. I would start managing his reaction to those things before really worrying too much about what happens in the field. 

I am always serious when I recommend to folks that they look at Hillmann with an eye toward how Bill manipulates situations to get the dog to think. One of the things I immediately saw (that others might not) is that Bill does heeling forward and backward. I think a lot of folk just see the process. I see the reasoning. 

When Bill says "heel" the dog never knows that direction he's going to move. So when the dog hears that command - it THINKS, it doesn't just lurch forward looking to a bird in front (as so many do). This promotes calmness and the dog working with the handler. Another thing you'll see is Bill only corrects for very large mistakes and will move to exaggerate a mistake to make things clear to the dog. Lots of people view "high standards" as correcting a dog for a 6" error in heeling. The dog probably can't understand that level of precision and the corrections then just become part of the routine. I don't remember if Bill does this but I will step backward several steps when a dog forges. I know Bill just stops and lets them get 6 feet in front before correcting... 

I've experimented with this stuff over many, many dogs with a variety of drives and issues. It works universally, and may be the one thing that actually does. 

Get them thinking and reward calm behavior above all else in obedience/line manners. The dog will still rocket off the line if you don't do obedience in a crushing, punitive manner and focus more on success/reward.

It can take a large amount of patience but as you've seen, the results are there and pretty wonderful. 

I spent 5 minutes yesterday standing quietly, holding a long line with a retriever that broke off the line. No corrections, just denial of the retrieve and waiting for the dog to come back to heel position before sending. In 6-8 repetitions that same dog sat beautifully steady for several throws. It was a beginning but it won't take long with the dog making the decisions for that steadiness to become a habit. Bank on that.

For what it's worth... Good training!


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> . Bill will step backward several steps when a dog forges or just stop and let them get 6 feet in front before correcting...


I have done this with many of my dogs for the last 12 yrs or so. It can be quite effective. I don't know what form of correction Bill uses, but I utilized a heeling stick and a sit whistle. Usually correction and whislte simultaneously. Pretty soon the dog figures out if he/she stays at the heel position they wont have the sit correction. Obviously only done with a dog that has had formal training.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Tobias said:


> I have done this with many of my dogs for the last 12 yrs or so. It can be quite effective. I don't know what form of correction Bill uses, but I utilized a heeling stick and a sit whistle. Usually correction and whislte simultaneously. Pretty soon the dog figures out if he/she stays at the heel position they wont have the sit correction. Obviously only done with a dog that has had formal training.


If you can reach with a stick, it wasn't what Bill prescribes.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> If you can reach with a stick, it wasn't what Bill prescribes.


I was doing it well before I ever heard of Bill - so no, what I do is not identical to what he does.. similar though and my wording was inaccurate..... I use a correction for a command other than heel.

6 feet to the dogs head or 6 ft to the dogs tail?


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Tobias said:


> I was doing it well before I ever heard of Bill - so no, what I do is not identical to what he does. I use a correction for a command other than heel.
> 
> 6 feet to the dogs head or 6 ft to the dogs tail?


I used 6' as a reference, it's not that precise. The point was that the dog is a good distance from the handler so it can understand the correction, as opposed to being nagged over and over for small mistakes it can't comprehend. 

The correction is actually just an e collar nick and it's for being out of position, not for some other command.

Bill does a lot of sitting in his heel routine but I don't think he does that to cement the position. Rather I think sit being so foundational an wanting an auto sit when you stop movement are the reasons he emphasized that behavior in concert with his heeling routine.

You can see the way I do it in the recent video I posted of my friend Alan and his BLM Jet. You know where to look.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> Well I could say forget it Keith because 99% of the people here discussing things (you included, I believe) haven't ever made an FC-AFC, but here's some stats to date...
> 
> The first dog I trained for field work was a MH 5 for 5
> 
> ...


I thought you would take it as an attack . I wanted to know what you have been doing. 

I do want to remind you about myself. It looks like you forgot. as far as training, I have been training huntin dogs for 19 years. Trained my first Lab at 17

I will not count group training or off breeds as you do because, it would be in the 1,000's . My focus, as far as competition is Springer's. I have raised 1 FC, one with 21 points ( needs the win) 1 with 10 point, Took 1 to the last series in the 2014 national and anther to the 4th in 2015. I have built 3 champions for others. My retriever pelts are not that impressive, because of the stock that I train and the lack of time. I have trained over 50 and have some SH passes. I do have 1 in the kennel now, that is young, but has real potential. I am not a Lardy follower. Most of my techniques come from Jim Dobb's and do my best to fallow Rex Car's play book. 

Who is this Schutzund trainer? I may know him.

What stuck me by your recent posts. Is that now, you post as fact, not just another way to get to point "B" 

I do wish you well.

Keith


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

For what it is worth, I am just an old trainer that is almost ready to run a dynamic, high energy dog. She has 
forced me to come to grips with huge changes in training approaches using a Hillmann approach. I have not
posted for quite awhile. We've been practicing. 

I would not have posted if Darrin had not written his "description". Change is not easy and when you are older
it is even more difficult. The use of precise repetitions, practice and focused excitement with patience is not
in harmony with today's philosophy of immediate gratification or ingrained dogma. 

I've worked via Hillmann's program for quite awhile with my last dog - Pounce. The recent Hillmann heeling program 
has been a "process" since last September. The "distraction" phase has been very incrementally slow mostly because
change is not easy. The approach to conditioned responses via precise practice is simply a slow process. There is no
way to describe or list the incremental efforts that have gone into arriving where we are at right now. The required 
responsiveness via Hillmann required learning how to teach like Hillmann does. Thinking about doing just that was/is 
daunting. The one thing that is very clear after reading Darrin's post....I felt a huge rush of *YES*. I do actually 
"get it".

Our first master test is in three weeks. Yesterday's session was essential more practice. I think we are ready (or not).

p.s. I realized there are hundreds of retrievers that run Master tests every weekend. It may not seem like that big of 
a deal.....but it is......for some.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

KwickLabs said:


> For what it is worth, I am just an old trainer that is almost ready to run a dynamic, high energy dog that has
> forced me to come to grips using a Hillmann approach. I have not posted for quite awhile. We've been practicing.
> 
> I would not have posted if Darrin had not written his "description". Change is not easy and when you are older
> ...


I wish you well and all who have chosen to take the journey. " It's not how you get there. It's the moments, you experience getting there"

Keith


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I remember your resume in summary Keith. It's impressive. Sorry if I took your post incorrectly. Didn't mean to get off track. I was unnecessarily emotional for a few minutes.

You mentioned I speak in affirmative terms these days - that's for a number of reasons that deserve explanation. 

First is finding a higher degree of compassion for the animal, which has come upon me in a way I never expected the last year or so of my career. As I get older, like a lot of people, I seem to be getting more patient and a bit softer. The second is realizing and then learning more about some "universal truths" in how dogs and other organisms (humans) function emotionally/neurologically. 

As you know, the more dogs a person puts their hands on, the "less" they will attest to know. I'm part of that crowd these days in that if you ask me to solve a problem for a particular dog, I will quite blatantly say "I don't know exactly but let's start here and see what happens". 

So with all that said I believe there is a universal truth in dog training. Action is the result of thought + emotion. 

This will sound crazy to some and at least one of our breeder friends here on RTF will want to put her foot in my ass for saying this but... 

If you can get the emotion correct - the "thoughts" you've trained into the dog will lead to the correct actions. It's not a simple matter of reinforcing or punishing. There is a third factor, which is the dog's emotional state, that has to be considered in any and all training. 

I've worked with some masters at achieving that who weren't so good at explaining that third aspect. 

Many many people have beliefs about dogs that we as a society would do well to change.

I have a local trainer who recently posted a video of a large rottweiler in a kennel, obviously in the basement of her home (where evidently she does some "board and train"), wearing a muzzle, a prong collar, e-collar, flat collar and a leash inside the kennel. Her commentary was "Bingo needs to learn he's not the boss". Next video I see is her walking the dog "correcting" him repeatedly for being 1" our of position in heel after 2 days of supposed "training". 

There was a time when I would have agreed with her. Now I just feel bad for the poor dog and his owner. In fact, the whole process bothers me a lot.

A lot of what I remember and what I see in amateur retriever trainers revolves around the use of various training equipment to "harness" a very excited, very driven dog. I see a lot of shoddy performances at the line. I see a lot of people who think their dog is trying to "run the show" or be "self employed", and working very hard to try and "correct" that problem. Obviously that's not meant to be a sweeping statement, but I hope I can get some people to think a bit differently about these "Stubborn" "hard headed" fire breathers. 

I've learned from bully breeds if you play with enough of them that once some dogs get worked up there's not amount of correction short of hanging that's going to get through to the dog. 

I've worked with enough "aggressive" dogs now to being unclear/unfair with a dog that's willing to fight will get someone shredded. Mals are famous for it (as many know).

It's made me and think if all that "correction" is really to the dog's benefit, and I hope to get others to think in similar terms. 

So yes - I'd say affirmatively - let's all think about how to be compassionate, clear, patient and gentle with our dogs. I'm by no means saying we should never make corrections or use our tools to reinforce behavior. That won't ever happen but I hope people can become more thoughtful about their training. 

Not singling out any one person or any one group or any program of any sort. Just generally would like to get some people thinking about how to better serve their dogs.


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## Randy Bohn (Jan 16, 2004)

I'm thinking if enough people are interested in your area why not set up a "mock" trial or hunt test and get the corrections WE all need in that atmosphere? After my one dog was done wearing me out at the trial today I'd be all in and head up that mock set up in my area....what do you guys think?? Randy


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

DarrinGreene said:


> I remember your resume in summary Keith. It's impressive. Sorry if I took your post incorrectly. Didn't mean to get off track. I was unnecessarily emotional for a few minutes.
> 
> You mentioned I speak in affirmative terms these days - that's for a number of reasons that deserve explanation.
> 
> ...


Liked this a lot Darrin.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

I agree with Darrin. You can go to Bill Hillman's u-tube blog and he covers the problem really well that you are having. Don't get hung up with getting his title at the risk of making your problem worse or maybe even making it irreversible. Most trainers won't take the necessary measures or time to address these types of problems, but I guarantee you that your dog's success will be quicker if you do. Like Bill Hillman, I have trained retrievers for over 50 years and his philosophy and approach to problems are of the types that work. You can't wave a magic wand over the dog and presto he's cured. Most trainers are unwilling to give up trial time to eradicate the dog's problems when it becomes necessary. If you want a dependable reliable retriever, you have to do what it takes.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

excellent insight Darrin
It is hard to explain and convince someone who has not been there or done that because the understanding of it comes with doing enough of it to see a pattern and then realizing its all connected. Its unfortunate that it takes a ton of dogs of every persuasion to see the relationship. I learned more about training retrievers from working with aggressive dogs than I did working with retrievers. Now explain that one. Everything means something

Pete


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Pete said:


> excellent insight Darrin
> It is hard to explain and convince someone who has not been there or done that because the understanding of it comes with doing enough of it to see a pattern and then realizing its all connected. Its unfortunate that it takes a ton of dogs of every persuasion to see the relationship. I learned more about training retrievers from working with aggressive dogs than I did working with retrievers. Now explain that one. Everything means something
> 
> Pete


If people knew how many days we went around wishing for a well bred, emotionally stable retriever... I've actually taken on a couple for line manners recently to get some sanity back into my week. 

and to experiment with some of these techniques that I know will work but need to prove to myself


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Randy Bohn said:


> I'm thinking if enough people are interested in your area why not set up a "mock" trial or hunt test and get the corrections WE all need in that atmosphere? After my one dog was done wearing me out at the trial today I'd be all in and head up that mock set up in my area....what do you guys think?? Randy


Pinelands runs 4-5 training days per year in Winslow that have 40-60 dogs and three series running simultaneously. Live fliers available.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

DarrinGreene said:


> I remember your resume in summary Keith. It's impressive. Sorry if I took your post incorrectly. Didn't mean to get off track. I was unnecessarily emotional for a few minutes.
> 
> You mentioned I speak in affirmative terms these days - that's for a number of reasons that deserve explanation.
> 
> ...


I do understand your less is better ( when using negative reinforcement) as we move through the process, but it's not the technique. It the way you apply them.

The main issue I want to address is aggression. There is different when training with working breeds and sporting breeds. When having a conversation with me. You have to be more specific. There is a difference between aggression and obsessives dominance and fear biting. There was a time, that I thought as you do. but no longer do and I will tell you why.

I worked red cases and dominance issue for about three years and had success. At one time I thought, I would write a book on the subject. I used isolation and reintroduction using high value food product, exercise, redirection to obeisance and back tying. Like I said. I had success, until I did not. It cost a 16 year boy over 20 stitches. After going through that situation, my concept totally changed. I now do what I call a meet and greet. When I do a quick eval. If the dog has a dominance problem, I do not train them. If they have a dominance in combination with fear biting issue. My recommendation is euthanasia. 

My decision has cost me work, but I sleep better at night. Sometimes, success is just not worth it.

It's in the breeding and we are here to better the breed.

Keith


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## 1tulip (Oct 22, 2009)

Wow. Thank you everyone. I've learned so much on this thread.

To keep it short... anyone following my posts (and why would you? Stop... NOW... and get a life!) over the last 4 years knows I've been crazed and made my well bred retriever crazed. Gradually listened to stuff I learned here. Also went and got some really super help from someone who lives and breathes Hillmann's methods.

Fast forward: The Rocket Dog is on fire. Romping quickly through Senior title stuff like... pffft! Piece of cake! Baby stuff! Training on Master material. Doing beyond great. The "problem" is, I'm going to be sick (chemo) for a time. 

One of the things that is somewhat overlooked and maybe underappreciated about Hillmann, is that "training" is constant, almost like you're never not training. So, since Rocket Dog is well grounded, and genotypically gifted out the whazoo, all we need to do for the next months is work on "The Game" on my bad days, and train with the group when I'm able. We're building on and refining what she already knows. We'll constantly be working on attitude and relationship.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

1tulip said:


> Doing beyond great. The "problem" is, I'm going to be sick (chemo) for a time.
> .



Best of luck to you 'Tulip', in the coming weeks. Hopefully the chemo journey will be a short one. (and Successful!!)


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

1tulip said:


> Wow. Thank you everyone. I've learned so much on this thread.
> 
> To keep it short... anyone following my posts (and why would you? Stop... NOW... and get a life!) over the last 4 years knows I've been crazed and made my well bred retriever crazed. Gradually listened to stuff I learned here. Also went and got some really super help from someone who lives and breathes Hillmann's methods.
> 
> ...


You go getum girl. Remember, when you are on the line. You own it.

Keith


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> The main issue I want to address is aggression. There is different when training with working breeds and sporting breeds. When having a conversation with me. You have to be more specific. There is a difference between aggression and obsessives dominance and fear biting. There was a time, that I thought as you do. but no longer do and I will tell you why.
> 
> I worked red cases and dominance issue for about three years and had success. At one time I thought, I would write a book on the subject. I used isolation and reintroduction using high value food product, exercise, redirection to obeisance and back tying. Like I said. I had success, until I did not. It cost a 16 year boy over 20 stitches. After going through that situation, my concept totally changed. I now do what I call a meet and greet. When I do a quick eval. If the dog has a dominance problem, I do not train them. If they have a dominance in combination with fear biting issue. My recommendation is euthanasia.
> 
> ...


Be very specific,,,What is the difference between obsessive dominance and fear biting. In all the years I have been dealing with aggression issues I only met one dog who had solely a dominance issue.( at least that was my assessment,,I could be wrong) Most others were a combination. There is dominance and then there is dominance.

Pete


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## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

Alright Darrin and all the rest of you! It sounds to me like your all just a bit too far away from Minnesota. With all the good advice in this thread, it's a shame we all can't have a few training days together. 

The Original Post was after I ran my last hunt test a couple weekends ago. Remi "Remington" ran a seasoned test and needs two more passes for his title. He has his Upland Title that he received this past March. 

I am unable to make it out to our Saturday morning Club Training days most of the summer due to kids playing softball every weekend. But, I do have a small group that meets up on Wednesday evening out on some land that has some technical water and good land to run on. So, Wednesday nights is my training days until I run my next hunt test which may not be until September, which will give me plenty of time to work on some heeling/creeping issues. 


I absolutely love my dog and his drive is off the wall and I'd take a puppy of his in a heartbeat. 

Personally I think just concentrating much more on the line during training, making sure I give a stern Sit-nick-Sit when marks are being thrown, I think he'll get much better. I've probably overlooked it too much, and that cost me at the hunt test. He doesn't move on the first bird thrown, but creeps up on the second or third bird being thrown. 

At the hunt test we had to walk somewhat further to get to the line to run, and my dog was pulling more than normal. I think maybe part of that was it was a rainy/windy crappy day, and I didn't air him out enough and burn off a little of that energy he has. But, I will be doing some things in the yard, as well as little things you guys suggest at training and we'll go from there.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Pete said:


> Be very specific,,,What is the difference between obsessive dominance and fear biting. In all the years I have been dealing with aggression issues I only met one dog who had solely a dominance issue.( at least that was my assessment,,I could be wrong) Most others were a combination. There is dominance and then there is dominance.
> 
> Pete


Sure no problem Pete.

Iv'e worked with dogs that where so dominant. That if you stared at them they would attack you and heaven forbid if you aired them with others in the exercise yard. these types can be trained, because they respond to managed training. I chose not to,because they are not breedable. Now fear biting is a dog that is fine as long as they have a way out. If you corner them or demand a response. Their first reaction is to bite. Some K-9 trainers use this to build a good bite. In my opinion all it causes is a nervy dog. Again not breedable. If you combo these together it's a lost cause. 

Keith


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Sure no problem Pete.
> 
> Iv'e worked with dogs that where so dominant. That if you stared at them they would attack you and heaven forbid if you aired them with others in the exercise yard. these types can be trained, because they respond to managed training. I chose not to,because they are not breedable. Now fear biting is a dog that is fine as long as they have a way out. If you corner them or demand a response. Their first reaction is to bite. Some K-9 trainers use this to build a good bite. In my opinion all it causes is a nervy dog. Again not breedable. If you combo these together it's a lost cause.
> 
> Keith


Both a fearful dog and dominant dog can move forward to bite if you stare at them,,both can have their tail straight up, ears up,stare straight back and most of the same postures ,,,so how can you tell if its fears based, dominant based or a combination of both. Fear(defensive) is a drive,,dominance is not, What is the mind set when a fearful dog locks eye compared to a dominant dog, and compared to a dog with both. Sorry, I didn't catch the specificity.
Pete


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Pete said:


> Both a fearful dog and dominant dog can move forward to bite if you stare at them,,both can have their tail straight up, ears up,stare straight back and most of the same postures ,,,so how can you tell if its fears based, dominant based or a combination of both. Fear(defensive) is a drive,,dominance is not, What is the mind set when a fearful dog locks eye compared to a dominant dog, and compared to a dog with both. Sorry, I didn't catch the specificity.
> Pete


That's fine Pete. Go argue with a stump.

Keith


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Marty, this line "rings a bell". _"Personally I think just concentrating much more on the line during training, making sure I give a stern Sit-nick-Sit when
marks are being thrown, I think he'll get much better. I've probably overlooked it too much, and that cost me at the hunt test"._ 

The idea of correcting a dog in the moment when the "routine" is a conditioned response is essentially "wishful thinking". Being stern does not produce
a lasting change. The "backwards" heeling concept has been mentioned by several. HIllmann's heeling program is based on using this "skill" to create
a *responsive* retriever. "ONCE" a retriever is responsive only then can you actually have a dog that wants to do the right thing.....because it is 
rewarding. For me it was months of "adjusting". Training does not consist of doing setups and ignoring he line.....especially when the line is where
most issues occur. 

Here is an excerpt of a training session focusing on the very issue you mentioned. The primary focus is responsiveness. The purpose is to have a dog 
that does the "right thing" because it is all she knows (in theory). 

*Note: It is not a short read and was written mostly to remind me to remain focused on the process.* 

_June 6 Pounce trained in the afternoon...."Line Distraction Drill"....close with mallards at the Harrison Road DTA. In Hillmann's program, a great deal of
time is spent focusing on precise, repetitious practice. When the skill/standard is established, the next step in the process is *distraction proofing*. 
Training in a group will provide a great deal of useful excitement, but much can be gained by focusing on making training alone very exciting. Shooting 
a flyer at 20 yards is more exciting to a dog than one at 100 yards. Having a duck splash in water (close) is more challenging. However, this would not
be the situation to begin a planned exciting, distraction proofing process. The primary focus is to make "yard work" and close "stuff" as exciting as
possible....a yard to field "tweener". 

To repeat...all too often, "yard work" is just plain "work". The dog learns how to deal with low excitement creating an assumption that his responsiveness
appears to be acceptable. Introduce some high energy distractions in the field and what was learned in the yard may not completely carry over. In the
same train of thought, if there is no high energy generated in training alone....responsiveness when excited will often prove to be "disappointing".

To repeat...anyone that has observed even a few of Hillmann's training sessions will notice the dog is continually kept in a highly excited state. They are
taught to deal with excitement via "capping" and channeling their energy. The final steps for establishing a skill set are completed by going through a 
process called “distraction proofing”. Basically, this means “can you maintain the same focus during exciting distractions”?

Therefore, when training alone what can be done to create distractions? First of all, I want/need the dog "off the wall excited" when we are training. A
retriever functions best in “prey drive”. This is where creativity and some common sense are require. For what it is worth, those two concepts are often
in conflict. The following is an example of a "distraction proofing" setup.

Pounce trained in the afternoon...."Line Distraction Drill"....very close setup with mallards (at the Harrison Road DTA). Three remote wingers were placed
in a tight pod behind some low shrubs to throw "noisy", "in your face", exciting mallards (right , left, last straight in). The van to the holding blind routine
was repeated three times. The marks were very short, thirty yard singles. The first “go” included a "walk-about"..way more than a simple, brief, tip-towing, 
sterile "walk-up".

The 2nd and 3rd mallards were singles with the focus on being steady and consistent deliveries with "one bird in mouth" sequence. When finished with 
the first "go", Pounce was "put up" and the wingers were reloaded. note: bird in air means "sit" is a standard

The same setup was then done as a triple. During the *extended* "walk-about", a 4th Dogtra remote was providing "quacks and beeps" from behind us plus
I was blowing on a duck call and carrying a fake gun. The "walk-about" included turns and reverse heeling in different directions with no predictable 
pattern. Pounce had to be "responsive" to keep in touch with where the walk was "taking" her before the triple was finally thrown. Before being released
(every time) a reverse, one step backward heel was required. This went well as Pounce began to realize (more aware) that she had to pay attention "to
be in the game" (responsive). After the first set, the three wingers sere moved to the north side of the brush to do a full, "flip-flop" repeat. This “training
alone” session was an exciting precise, repetitive practice.

note: Pounce began working on Hillmann's "Heeling Program" last September 
note: On the two sets that were done as triples, Pounce was NOT wearing an e-collar. Any
......"correction" was done by simply changing directions with *no nagging command*.
.......Nothing exciting happened unless she was doing the right thing. The sought
.......conditioned responses are "being at heel is necessary" and (TO REPEAT) "bird in
.......air" means sit._

It should be note that the above "distraction drill" finale began on a *much smaller, simpler scale*. A high level of responsiveness requires a steady 
progression of exciting, fun lessons.........and practice....*great deal of it.* 

No heeling stick regards, Jim


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Very good read Jim. I have a question, you say in the notes you are working on conditioned responses of being at heel is necessary and bird in air means sit. How would you deal with any issue where the dog's response was 'less than acceptable'? Without a collar, a heeling stick, etc? Was she on lead? Say she picked her butt up and/or crept during the walk up. Would you give a verbal 'no' and reload the winger and start over? Would you scrap the drill entirely, and back up and simplify and do more practice? 

How do you deal with a failure on the dog's part without any correction? Regardless of how much you practice, eventually a dog is going to be a dog and do something unexpected. Is your thought to always back up and simplify and further teach? I have Hillmann's advanced material and he does mention corrections in certain instances.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

bamajeff said:


> Is your thought to always back up and simplify and further teach? I have Hillmann's advanced material and *he does mention corrections* in certain instances.


Jeff , I'm just spiffing here , but thanks for bringing the thread back on course .
Why would you require to simplify a sequential process ?
Why would there be any requirement to correct ?
If heel is heel and Sit is sit .
atb .Robt.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

polmaise said:


> Jeff , I'm just spiffing here , but thanks for bringing the thread back on course .
> Why would you require to simplify a sequential process ?
> Why would there be any requirement to correct ?
> If heel is heel and Sit is sit .
> atb .Robt.


Because sometimes a dog(no matter how well trained) will not adhere to the standard. I'm not saying it's a common or frequent occurrence(otherwise you would need to revisit training that behavior). Are you saying that you have never(and I mean NEVER) had a dog break sit or heel in any situation? If you did, what did you do about it?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

bamajeff said:


> . Are you saying that you have never(and I mean NEVER) had a dog break sit or heel in any situation?


That'l be the day ' .


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

polmaise said:


> That'l be the day ' .


Ok to further the discussion, what do you do when a dog does break sit/heel? Do you correct, revisit training on the command that was broken, or what protocol do follow to try to keep it from recurring?


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

bamajeff said:


> Ok to further the discussion, what do you do when a dog does break sit/heel? Do you correct, revisit training on the command that was broken, or what protocol do follow to try to keep it from recurring?


Like all them sequential processes ,it's easier when you don't have anything to fix.
To further the discussion , incremental not detrimental correction at an early age don't seem that much . (Much like your well mentioned with 'only slight nick' ,that sounds nicer ) 
...
You can log in to the full set dvd's just like others .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjgSn1bmob0


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## martyhanson23 (Feb 12, 2015)

Very Good Info KwickLabs

I've been kind of getting blasted for using a stick, when I've seriously used it a total of 5 times. Or using a Sit-Nick-Sit, when really that's all anyone has ever taught me since I got into the game about 4 years ago. So I'm learning a lot here. 
I have Lardy's Total Retriever Training DVD's, but I will be watching Hillmans stuff more now. 

In some of the info you listed, how do you correct a dog in the scenarios that you explained? With marks being thrown on a walk-up in front of you, noise being made in front of you and behind you, what are you doing if the dog is still creeping? 

I have Training tonight and will try to do some of this that you mention, if I can get the other guys to help me 

Can I use a pinch collar at all, if the dog doesn't heel well and creeps, whether at the line or walking up, do I immediately pull from the line and put back in truck? 

Thanks for the help!


Marty













KwickLabs said:


> Marty, this line "rings a bell". _"Personally I think just concentrating much more on the line during training, making sure I give a stern Sit-nick-Sit when
> marks are being thrown, I think he'll get much better. I've probably overlooked it too much, and that cost me at the hunt test"._
> 
> The idea of correcting a dog in the moment when the "routine" is a conditioned response is essentially "wishful thinking". Being stern does not produce
> ...


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Patience until the dog self corrects.
No bird until he is at heel on his own.

It is pretty hard to do because you might sit and wait for 8-10 minutes.
But the dog will eventually self correct.
It works.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

I should know better than to profess a solid solution or answer for another dog and trainer. I have enough work 
in dealing with my own. What to do depends on the dog in question and the skill set of the trainer. I began using 
Hillmann's heeling program last September. It is not a quick fix, and there are several steps that require a *great
deal of precise, persistent practice.*. An explanation of a Hillmann "correction" when taken out of context is 
essentially meaningless because it seems too simple. . 

Most will not be willing to stick to a lengthy, Hillmann timeline (no pun intended).


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

The dog must be proofed in competition. No matter how well he does in training, dogs are situational. and they revert back in competition. Quick fixes do not work. What that means is you must stop competing for a long time, and at least go to a correction match and see what happens before you think you have it under control.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

martyhanson23 said:


> Very Good Info KwickLabs
> 
> I've been kind of getting blasted for using a stick, when I've seriously used it a total of 5 times. Or using a Sit-Nick-Sit, when really that's all anyone has ever taught me since I got into the game about 4 years ago. So I'm learning a lot here.
> I have Lardy's Total Retriever Training DVD's, but I will be watching Hillmans stuff more now.
> ...


Marty, contact Tim Springer/Dynamic Retrievers, for some private lessons, if he isn't giving one of his seminars this summer. You want hands on help to learn how to actually work on some of these common issues, particularly "line manners", you won't find better or closer to rewire your thinking/training process. There's more than just a correction involved.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Rainmaker said, _"There's more than just a correction involved."_ 

That's the best reply I've read on this thread. The expression "it depends" then comes into play. Taking the individual 
skill sets of the trainer and a dog provides a vast array of possibilities. There have been several references to the 
"Hillmann correction". It is simple, effective and fair. However, there is a great deal of teaching and precise practice
that must take place before introducing distractions. The introduction to corrections comes later in the distraction's
phase. 

A simple measurement of being ready (for this correction phase) is measured by the fact that it is seamless, effective
and most importantly not a big deal for the dog. Also, there is no verbal command. In my opinion, it is simply a fair
and very effective application of low level indirect pressure. 

Yesterday, Pounce was working on an advanced "Distraction Drill" designed to stress the correct actions at the line. 
It is all about *our* skill sets of working together.....responsiveness. It had been "our" weakest area......not just hers. 

The use of videos tends to be more revealing (after the fact). Distraction proofing is a significant component of Hillmann's
approach. Therefore, this setup was designed to maximize excitement (especially, since we were training alone). With this
type of setup it is easy to manipulate excitement levels. We've practiced quite a bit. The results have been rather obvious
in our more recent group training sessions. 

Journal entry:
June 13 Pounce trained at the Harrison Road DTA and "worked" *another* "Line Distraction Drill". The first set was a very
close triple with mallards. The second was run as three singles using the AKC wooden gun. The last was a second triple
with a real shotgun and primer loads. Responsiveness was the focus measured by her willingness to remain at heel *and
to heel backwards when asked*. 

note: The backwards heeling skill (Hillmann) is a major component of sustaining engagement AND
it is not done by using a verbal command. Pounce must be aware of where she is relative to me. 
note: There was one instance of an "event" to apply a Hillmann correction right at 47 
seconds and her response was very good. There was no verbal...simply a level
three nick. Her backwards "scooch" is quite obvious (on a large desktop screen). 

_*"Distraction Drill" YouTube (Video)*_


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