# British - Irish breeders



## Hope (May 6, 2005)

I am currently in the market for a new pup and want to consider pure british/irish breedings. Besides Wildrose, Double T and Duckhill which I have alread looked into anyone have any suggestions
Thanks
Wayne


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Bracken Fen Gundogs. www.brackenfen.com


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Hope said:


> I am currently in the market for a new pup and want to consider pure british/irish breedings. Besides Wildrose, Double T and Duckhill which I have alread looked into anyone have any suggestions
> Thanks
> Wayne


If you are looking at those 3 ya might as well check the pound.

Buy a puppy not some marketing BS regards

Bubba


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

Ian Christe of Fifle Scotland. Ian is an expert breeder of fine hunting dogs, judges hunt test throughout Europe and is well respected. He has sold a number of dogs to both Canadians and Americans. I have one myself. She's through the roof and two more pups are arrving January 12. I'll be breeding next year but if you drop me a line I can get you in touch with Ian.

The pup I have 1 yr old is a 100% bird dog, easy to train, fun to be around and doesn't bark. 

No marketing sceme. Come and see her work. I'm mentioning Ian because I'm impressed with his service, knowlege and his honest manner.


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## TWilkinson (May 19, 2009)

check out kopmeier gundogs at kogndogs.com great gun dogs and hunt test dogs. i have one and he is a great dog.


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## RemisGunner (Nov 28, 2006)

Check out Wildwind Kennels in Nebraska. I have met the owner and he is a great guy and he is getting his hands on some excellent British/Irish/Scot lines. The price is better than the others you mentioned previously and I have dogs from two of the three so I speak from experience. My next dog(s) will be from Wildwind. 

www.wildwindbritlabs.com

Good luck!


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## Philip Carson (Mar 17, 2009)

Hope said:


> I am currently in the market for a new pup and want to consider pure british/irish breedings. Besides Wildrose, Double T and Duckhill which I have alread looked into anyone have any suggestions
> Thanks
> Wayne


Why "pure british/irish breedings"?


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Sent you a PM


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## Philip Carson (Mar 17, 2009)

firehouselabs said:


> Sent you a PM


Sorry, did not get your PM. Philip Carson


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

Philip Carson said:


> Why "pure british/irish breedings"?


I guess it comes down to what you like and what you are going to be doing with your best friend. For me I like the benefit of having over 200 years of breeding that only concentrated on hunting dogs. I also believe that the UK has a strict breeding policy that trys to reduce or eliminate disease.

My pup is calm to be around and never causes any trouble around the farm. She scores an easy 10/10 on intelligence and has a willingness to learn. In the field she's a different dog. She will listen but is wild on birds. She's just fun to be around.


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## signgirl (Jun 4, 2006)

Hunchaser said:


> I guess it comes down to what you like and what you are going to be doing with your best friend. For me I like the benefit of having over 200 years of breeding that only concentrated on hunting dogs. I also believe that the UK has a strict breeding policy that trys to reduce or eliminate disease.
> 
> My pup is calm to be around and never causes any trouble around the farm. She scores an easy 10/10 on intelligence and has a willingness to learn. In the field she's a different dog. She will listen but is wild on birds. She's just fun to be around.


Sounds just like my 100% North American field bred goldens.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Hunchaser said:


> I guess it comes down to what you like and what you are going to be doing with your best friend. For me I like the benefit of having over 200 years of breeding that only concentrated on hunting dogs. *I also believe that the UK has a strict breeding policy that trys to reduce or eliminate disease.*
> 
> My pup is calm to be around and never causes any trouble around the farm. She scores an easy 10/10 on intelligence and has a willingness to learn. In the field she's a different dog. She will listen but is wild on birds. She's just fun to be around.


You're drinking the coolaid, the kennels you have named don't even get hip & elbow clearances on their breeding stock.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> You're drinking the coolaid, the kennels you have named don't even get hip & elbow clearances on their breeding stock.


Much less PRA other than exporting their carriers.


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## RemisGunner (Nov 28, 2006)

Granddaddy said:


> You're drinking the coolaid, the kennels you have named don't even get hip & elbow clearances on their breeding stock.





ErinsEdge said:


> Much less PRA other than exporting their carriers.


Wildwind Kennels and Double T do and they post the information on their website for each dog.


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Bubba said:


> If you are looking at those 3 ya might as well check the pound.
> 
> Buy a puppy not some marketing BS regards
> 
> Bubba


I see one of them is Selling "canoe dogs", specializing in labs between 35-50 pounds.

to the OP I believe we have some members who breed these lines I just cannot remember the name offhand.


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## ripline (Jan 12, 2009)

Hunchaser said:


> I guess it comes down to what you like and what you are going to be doing with your best friend. For me I like the benefit of having over 200 years of breeding that only concentrated on hunting dogs. I also believe that the UK has a strict breeding policy that trys to reduce or eliminate disease.
> 
> My pup is calm to be around and never causes any trouble around the farm. She scores an easy 10/10 on intelligence and has a willingness to learn. In the field she's a different dog. She will listen but is wild on birds. She's just fun to be around.


Also describes my 2.5 year old NFC X MH!!


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

Philip Carson said:


> Sorry, did not get your PM. Philip Carson



No I did not PM you, I PM'd the orig. poster. I did however email you.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Call Tom Hamilton at www.brackenfen.com

Tom trained and competed in the UK, and ran HT's here for many years. Tell him what you are looking for, and he will tell you if he can help you or not.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

You might consider Germany- they are very well known for their careful breeding practices as proven by the most famous German Shepards and now the German Zoo's cross-eyed possum. 

http://www.komonews.com/news/offbeat/113355334.html?ref=guiltypleasures


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## Cthomas (Sep 21, 2003)

Hunchaser said:


> For me I like the benefit of having over 200 years of breeding that only concentrated on hunting dogs. I also believe that the UK has a strict breeding policy that trys to reduce or eliminate disease.


Say what? I did a google on labs, here is what I found:
"The dogs Avon ("Buccleuch Avon") and Ned given by Malmesbury to assist the Duke of Buccleuch's breeding program in the 1880s are usually considered the ancestors of all modern Labradors."

Do the math. British labs do not have an extra two hundred years of breeding either confirmation or performence labs. What that is, is, a genetic bottleneck. Under the skin, there is very little genetic variation in modern labs despite what the dogs have been bred for, and no matter what side of the pond they come from.

How much hunting does the average guy in England really do anyway? I thought it was mostly done by land owners and aristrocrats. 

How about Amercian field bred labs, and all the hunting they do every year by Joe Average in every Amercian city. Think of the numbers of american hunting labs to choose from vs a very limited amount of british hunting labs. . . 

As for disease control in the UK. . . If I were you I would still make sure the parents are truely cleared for hips, CNM, EIC and eyes.

I'm glad you haven't fallen for the hype. 

Chris


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

I have looked and looked on *one* of these sites and can find no reference to any health clearances is this normal as well?


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## Bushmills (Sep 26, 2010)

The hunting in Britain is just as popular as it is in North America,it is a very civilized gathering.....the difference being, they train their dogs without e-collars and the dogs are proven very very successful..... North American Labs are good....but the British/Irish Labs....enough said,after all the British introduced field trials to N.America.
Some people really need to do their research before they post comments/opinions on the subject.
I wish you all success in finding a true British Labrador, and take plenty of time doing so. If push comes to shove, there are excellent breed lines in the American Labs out there.
James
President-British Labrador Retriever Association (Canada)


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

If what you are looking for is a calm in the house but intense in the field retriever with a great pedigree and health clearances, you don't really need to limit yourself to British/Irish labs. My Lean Mac grandson is sitting here sleeping with his head resting on my foot... he sleeps even sounder after hunting because he NEVER stops watching the sky and retrieves with reckless abandon Last week he chased a goose 1/2 mile downriver (Potomac River, MD) swimming, until it finally got tired of diving. I got him back in the boat, he shook off, and got back to watching the sky. I watched him closely as it was about 20 degrees out.... no problem with cold or enthusiasm for getting back in the water. Point is... you can get intensity in the field and calmness in the house with "American" labs.

But, to each his own, and if you want a British/Irish lab, go for it!

Good luck!


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

RemisGunner said:


> Wildwind Kennels and Double T do and they post the information on their website for each dog.


I just looked at Wildwind's site, and did not see ANY clearances on pedigrees. I did see they offer a guarantee, but that does not mean any dogs have been tested. Where did you see the clearances?


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Bushmills said:


> The hunting in Britain is just as popular as it is in North America,it is a very civilized gathering.....the difference being, they train their dogs without e-collars and the dogs are proven very very successful..... North American Labs are good....but the British/Irish Labs....enough said,after all the British introduced field trials to N.America.
> Some people really need to do their research before they post comments/opinions on the subject.
> I wish you all success in finding a true British Labrador, and take plenty of time doing so. If push comes to shove, there are excellent breed lines in the American Labs out there.
> James
> President-British Labrador Retriever Association (Canada)


Isn't the reason they train w/o e-collars is because they've been banned in England? Wouldn't some use e-collars in the UK if they could, just as some use them and some don't in North America?


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Tom Hamilton is pretty low tech on his website. If someone was seriously interested in his dog's clearances, I am sure he would be glad to provide them. 

Why do these threads always deteriorate into "US is better/UK is better" nonsense, when all the OP asked for was suggestions on breeders?


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## RemisGunner (Nov 28, 2006)

2tall said:


> I just looked at Wildwind's site, and did not see ANY clearances on pedigrees. I did see they offer a guarantee, but that does not mean any dogs have been tested. Where did you see the clearances?


If you go to where the sires and dams are listed, click on the dogs (pictures) and read their descriptions, right above their pedigrees are their health clearances. Pretty easy to find, I've included a link to one of their sires, Toby.

http://www.wildwindbritlabs.com/toby.php


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## troy schwab (Mar 9, 2010)

GulfCoast said:


> Why do these threads always deteriorate into "US is better/UK is better" nonsense, when all the OP asked for was suggestions on breeders?


Wondering the same thing....... pissin match regards....


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

GulfCoast said:


> Why do these threads always deteriorate into "US is better/UK is better" nonsense, when all the OP asked for was suggestions on breeders?


It never fails, does it?

Gulfcoast, I've had the privilege of spending some time with Tom at AGC events and have the utmost respect for the man. He's invited me to come down and train with him over the summer and I think I'll take him up on it. He's a great teacher, as well as trainer.


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## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

My God, if you don't know where they can find a good British/Irish Breeder, than don't respond! I think some of you act like this is Nazi Germany, and there's only one way!


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Denver said:


> My God, if you don't know where they can find a good British/Irish Breeder, than don't respond! I think some of you act like this is Nazi Germany, and there's only one way!


Isn't this post the same thing?

As for the OP I think a few suggestions have been made. Most of the other have just been adding in the normal Buyer beware that is added anytime someone is looking for a litter like look for clearances, and make sure the dog is what you want and not just a lot of hype. Another kennel with the same style dogs is Deep Run Kennels in VA. More of the brit type labs that are still bred for hunting. I have seen many of there dogs and they although not my taste are very very nice dogs, all with clearances bred and trained by very knowledgable people.


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Jason Glavich said:


> Isn't this post the same thing?
> 
> As for the OP I think a few suggestions have been made. Most of the other have just been adding in the normal Buyer beware that is added anytime someone is looking for a litter like look for clearances, and make sure the dog is what you want and not just a lot of hype. Another kennel with the same style dogs is Deep Run Kennels in VA. More of the brit type labs that are still bred for hunting. I have seen many of there dogs and they although not my taste are very very nice dogs, all with clearances bred and trained by very knowledgable people.


Actually, Deep Run specializes in English Labs, much different than British Labs.

Think Show (English) vs Field (British)


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Jason
This going to sound ridiculous, but there is a difference between British and English Labradors. 
When one refers to British they are referring to British FIELD TRIAL dogs, when one refers to English they are referring to lines that _go back to_ English (British) SHOW dogs. Britian has the same divide that we do ie: Field and Show

If people would refer to labradors in this country as field and show it would be more accurate, than American and English._ Most_ of the "English " dogs don't have an English dog in a 5-6 -7 (or more) generation pedigree.

Deep Run is breeding American show bred dogs that hunt. 
One of their boys (CH/MH) is the sire of my 9 day old pups


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## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

Jason Glavich said:


> Isn't this post the same thing?
> 
> As for the OP I think a few suggestions have been made. Most of the other have just been adding in the normal Buyer beware that is added anytime someone is looking for a litter like look for clearances, and make sure the dog is what you want and not just a lot of hype. Another kennel with the same style dogs is Deep Run Kennels in VA. More of the brit type labs that are still bred for hunting. I have seen many of there dogs and they although not my taste are very very nice dogs, all with clearances bred and trained by very knowledgable people.


Where in the OP's original post, does it imply that they don't know, or asked, to look for the normal health clearances? I don't see people, looking for good american bred labs being told to make sure they find a reputable breeder, with health clearances. I think it's just implied.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Denver said:


> Where in the OP's original post, does it imply that they don't know, or asked, to look for the normal health clearances? I don't see people, looking for good american bred labs being told to make sure they find a reputable breeder, with health clearances. I think it's just implied.


Huh??? I do believe that when folks post on RTF asking questions about looking for ANY kind of retriever the recommendation is there to always check into health clearances. Many newbies don't know all of the clearances that should be checked and RTFers are very consistent in offering that advice.


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## Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

Mike Tome said:


> Huh??? I do believe that when folks post on RTF asking questions about looking for ANY kind of retriever the recommendation is there to always check into health clearances. Many newbies don't know all of the clearances that should be checked and RTFers are very consistent in offering that advice.


I think it just seems, that if someone asks a question about something that isn't the norm, some people use it as a chance to insult the poster.


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## Hope (May 6, 2005)

Folks I was not looking to stir the pot and was simply looking for references from folks who knew or had experience with breeders in this speciality. I knew I catch some crap I also knew that I would be talking to serious dog people who would have some answers. I was hoping to stay away from the bigger breeders even if they have some very strong pedigrees. Actually my first two labs where from Deep Run, Elvis sired both of them. Thanks for the reference of Tom I have put a shout out to him. Mike sorry we missed you last weekend but we got snowed in 
Thanks for your time
Wayne


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## Mark Rieger (Sep 7, 2010)

Hope said:


> I am currently in the market for a new pup and want to consider pure british/irish breedings. Besides Wildrose, Double T and Duckhill which I have alread looked into anyone have any suggestions
> Thanks
> Wayne


Old oak kennels in Mn is the best there is in the state. Contact Rick McConico.


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## Jason Glavich (Apr 10, 2008)

Bridget Bodine said:


> Jason
> This going to sound ridiculous, but there is a difference between British and English Labradors.
> When one refers to British they are referring to British FIELD TRIAL dogs, when one refers to English they are referring to lines that _go back to_ English (British) SHOW dogs. Britian has the same divide that we do ie: Field and Show
> 
> ...



I realize that there is a difference, I was just giving the other side option although while reading my post it didn't come across that way. I just meant if the "calmer" "bigger" style dog opposed to the fabled "tall" Lanky" was wanted this was an option.


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## HarryWilliams (Jan 17, 2005)

Wayne, I'm sure you and Ann will find yourselves a fine labrador puppy that meets what you guys want. Have fun in the search. HOPE'ing I see you all in the field. Harry


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## Take'em (Nov 29, 2006)

Bubba said:


> If you are looking at those 3 ya might as well check the pound.
> 
> Buy a puppy not some marketing BS regards
> 
> Bubba


I would imagine you personally know these people, otherwise, it's a pretty reckless statement, don't you think? I know nothing about the Wildrose or Duckhill people but tossing Haynes of Double TT in the mix doesn't do much for your credibility on the subject. Wow. Would getting a puppy out of this sire be buying into marketing BS? 


HRCH UH Craighorn Spud MH
First English Labrador to enter 500 Point Club in HRC
AKC MASTER HUNTER
2005 MASTER NATIONAL QUALIFIED 

OPTIGEN ACCESSION # 06 - 8555
GENOTYPE - NORMAL / CLEAN for PRA
Clear ( CNM ) Myopathy Mutation
LR-CNM 08-99-M-PI
CLEAN of EIC



HRCH UH Craighorn Spud MH
"Spud"
AKC Master Hunter
500 POINT CLUB HRC 
"Two Time FTW in England"
Pedigree 
OFA - Good
LR-132434G60M-NOPI 
CLEAN of EIC


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Denver said:


> *Where in the OP's original post, does it imply that they don't know, or asked, to look for the normal health clearances?* I don't see people, looking for good american bred labs being told to make sure they find a reputable breeder, with health clearances. I think it's just implied.


Denver, as you seem to be the OP's apoligist, his implication was by naming a kennel that is notorious for NOT getting any health clearances. This was my reason, only reason, for stating he should be sure to consider them.

But since I'm here, the OP also implied something about 200 yrs of hunting tradition. This sounds good at first glance & seems to be in many promotions of dogs that have no field performance titles - but where is the proof. In the UK, not unlike the US, the best field pedigrees - meaning where you will find the best consistency of field performance, is from offspring that are titled in field performance (titled here could be any number of field sport titles). This is the very means by which we in the US & our fellow retriever enthusiasts in the UK measure field performance & its potential in offspring. I am in no way denigrating British retrievers, just stating the obvious, or maybe not so obvious - that all respected breeders use performance credentials/titles to offer proof of the potential of the offspring from their breedings. Further a hunting tradition is not a separate category or classification from titled field performance (meaning titled dogs usually will also make the best hunting dogs), except where such dogs have not obtained field titles. And when such dogs have not obtained field titles, we have virtually no means of predicting the suitability of a particular pup for hunting or any of the field games from which dogs derive titles. The exception might be where you have seen & studied a specific untitled/hunting sire & dam in the field personally over some period of time enabling you to measure their capabilities & suitability in the field. Even then without pedigrees (meaning history of measure field performance), any cross-breeding (contrasted here with a line breeding) is a risk.

So forget the hype & sales pitch. Look for pups from titled stock to increase the potential for a good field performer whether your intent is hunting, trialing (of several varieties), or hunt tests (of many varieties).


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

Take'em said:


> I would imagine you personally know these people, otherwise, it's a pretty reckless statement, don't you think? I know nothing about the Wildrose or Duckhill people but tossing Haynes of Double TT in the mix doesn't do much for your credibility on the subject. Wow. Would getting a puppy out of this sire be buying into marketing BS?
> 
> 
> HRCH UH Craighorn Spud MH
> ...


My pup is out of his lines and far exceeded anything I had hoped for. Very calm yet focused , never whines, obedience came extremely easy for him/me hunts and runs hard also has great style. 

I understand that there are plenty of American bred labs that fit my criteria but when I looked for my last pup I solely shopped the British lines to narrow down my search plus I knew people who could vouch for the kennels I shopped.
Everything with this pup has gone better than I had hoped for just too bad they aren't with us longer.......


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Take'em said:


> HRCH UH Craighorn Spud MH
> First English Labrador to enter 500 Point Club in HRC
> AKC MASTER HUNTER
> 2005 MASTER NATIONAL QUALIFIED
> ...


This type of breeding isn't real hard to get from what I've seen. Seems to me this falls into doing your research and checking out the dam and sire. With all that being said I've of the opinion buy what you want and enjoy it. Just make sure you're buying what you're buying.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Mike Tome* (not *2tall* at all at all)!! asked


> Isn't the reason they train w/o e-collars is because they've been banned in England?


Not quite. The use of e-collars is unlawful in Wales where they were banned only last year, but not the rest of UK (ie England, Scotland and Northern Ireland) Not sure about the Republic but I think they are OK.

And


> Wouldn't some use e-collars in the UK if they could, just as some use them and some don't in North America?


Again, not really. The only e-collars I see used (and it's a diminishingly small number) are employed by rather poor amateur trainers that have failed with conventional means and don't know how to otherwise rectify that faults they perceive in their dogs. They are invariably unsuccessful.

I don't know of a single trainer, amateur or professional, active in FTs or at serious levels in the field who uses the collar, or force fetch. The overwhelming sentiment against the first is that they are not necessary and are potentially abusive, and the second is virtually unknown.

Just in case you are wondering about the tools that are employed, outside of launchers, bumpers, a devil of a lot of birds and a rabbit pen, you will see a whistle, rope lead and not much else. I can also say I've never seen a heeling stick, prong or pinch collar, training table, rat shot, or catapult used either, ever. 

The thinking amongst those aware of e collar and FF is that they are employed to address problems that should be bred out out of the bloodstock, and that using them to cover up and cure such inherent defects would be to devalue the breedlines.

Eug


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Colonel Blimp said:


> 2tall asked Not quite. The use of e-collars is unlawful in Wales where they were banned only last year, but not the rest of UK (ie England, Scotland and Northern Ireland) Not sure about the Republic but I think they are OK.
> 
> And Again, not really. The only e-collars I see used (and it's a diminishingly small number) are employed by rather poor amateur trainers that have failed with conventional means and don't know how to otherwise rectify that faults they perceive in their dogs. They are invariably unsuccessful.
> 
> ...


Was not me! I believe Mike Tome made the comment above about ecollars! I don't claim to know anything about UK training or practices. Sorry, just wanted to clear that up.


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## scott2012 (Feb 16, 2009)

Colonel Blimp said:


> 2tall asked Not quite. The use of e-collars is unlawful in Wales where they were banned only last year, but not the rest of UK (ie England, Scotland and Northern Ireland) Not sure about the Republic but I think they are OK.
> 
> And Again, not really. The only e-collars I see used (and it's a diminishingly small number) are employed by rather poor amateur trainers that have failed with conventional means and don't know how to otherwise rectify that faults they perceive in their dogs. They are invariably unsuccessful.
> 
> ...


I just gotta ask.....what is the rabbit pen for?


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

If a guy wanted to learn more about these training practices what would be a GOOD on line source? I'm currently useing Gramm, Lardy etc and have some strong training partners that support that but am very interested in UK training methods.


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## Take'em (Nov 29, 2006)

scott2012 said:


> I just gotta ask.....what is the rabbit pen for?


A place to store live rabbits?


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## Kirk Keene (Jul 20, 2009)

mudd said:


> If a guy wanted to learn more about these training practices what would be a GOOD on line source? I'm currently useing Gramm, Lardy etc and have some strong training partners that support that but am very interested in UK training methods.


Look for my PM


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Colonel Blimp said:


> 2tall asked Not quite. The use of e-collars is unlawful in Wales where they were banned only last year, but not the rest of UK (ie England, Scotland and Northern Ireland) Not sure about the Republic but I think they are OK.
> 
> And Again, not really. The only e-collars I see used (and it's a diminishingly small number) are employed by rather poor amateur trainers that have failed with conventional means and don't know how to otherwise rectify that faults they perceive in their dogs. They are invariably unsuccessful.
> 
> ...


Ah nice to hear a different and I think a knowledgeable opinion. Here's my question to you. From what I've heard, no real proof, is that the way we "yanks" hunt and run our dogs is different than that of your way. I've heard that the no slip aspect is way more important and that we extend farther out and expect our dogs to show more at a distance. Please tell me if I'm wrong and misinformed or if I'm relatively close. Please keep in mind I've never attended a FT of any sort, just hunt tests.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Socks*,

In broad brush terms you are correct. 

Retrievers in UK are mostly (but not exclusively) used as, well, retrievers. Driven shoots form a substantial part of the shooting scene and that's where the no slip work is done. 

Retrievers are used to hunt in the American sense, on what we call "rough shoots" and you guys term "upland", but our weapon of choice is more usually a Springer. 

UK Field trials are more closely related to a typical shooting day than their US counterparts. Again in broad brush terms you could say a US Trial is more fair because all the dogs get the same challenge, whilst a UK Trial is a truer test of game finding in field conditions. 

The distances the dog covers in a UK Trial depends on where the bird falls (or ground game is shot); equally if the dog marks it it's a mark; if he doesn't it's a blind! In a US Trial the distances are artificially long by design. The e-collar and the changes in US Trials from the original format have grown symbiotically. Both regimes are IMO equally valid, as are those in the various European countries. 

Here is a link to a video of a driven day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvUY8hAbfLg there are some more on the same page as this one. A taster video of a UK FT .... note the ground game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc-uNGIX3Hk


*2tall*


> Was not me! I believe Mike Tome made the comment


please accept my grovelling apology. it's a senile thing.

regards
Eug


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## Gordy Weigel (Feb 12, 2003)

Take'em said:


> I would imagine you personally know these people, otherwise, it's a pretty reckless statement, don't you think? I know nothing about the Wildrose or Duckhill people but tossing Haynes of Double TT in the mix doesn't do much for your credibility on the subject. Wow. Would getting a puppy out of this sire be buying into marketing BS?
> 
> 
> HRCH UH Craighorn Spud MH
> ...


Another Positive for Double TT. I have trained 10 of their pups and really like what I see. The dogs I have worked with have had good success in HT's and in the field.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*Scott2012* asked


> I just gotta ask.....what is the rabbit pen for?


*take'em* responded


> A place to store live rabbits?


Spot on. In a UK Field Trial you are quite likely to encounter rabbits and hares. Not only should the dogs be familiar with trailing and retrieving them, they must be steady to flush; remember no creeping or moving is allowable. 

Dogs are trained for steadiness in a rabbit pen (an enclosure containing rabbits and domestic fowl plus occasionally ducks all running about). One typical drill ...carry a few pigeons in a shoulder bag (or dummies) throw one up and shoot it, send the dog. He should ignore any ground game and the fowl, just concentrate on the pigeon or bumper. 

Eug


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

2tall said:


> Was not me! I believe Mike Tome made the comment above about ecollars! I don't claim to know anything about UK training or practices. Sorry, just wanted to clear that up.


Carol, if you did not make that quote, it is perfectly acceptable to ask Eug to go back and edit his quote to credit the proper source.

I know I'd not be pleased if I were misquoted (unless it were something brilliant that I agreed with and felt it painted me in a positive light maybe). I'd be asking whomever misquoted me to hit the edit button and "fix" it.


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

Say but the word.

Eug


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## jax (May 18, 2010)

I have considered getting a british lab and have seen a few in person, as I like their smaller size and stature.


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## jax (May 18, 2010)

Anybody else out there have good look with Double T dogs?


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Thank you Eug! I am perfectly capable of putting my foot in my mouth all by myself, so I don't need any assistance.


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## jax (May 18, 2010)

Does anyone own a british dog from Wildwind British labs in Firth NE? They seem to have some nice looking males.


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## Goosetree (Dec 12, 2010)

jax said:


> Anybody else out there have good look with Double T dogs?


I'm picking up a Double T puppy next month out of Spud X Sophie. I'll let you know how she does. I hear contradicting stories/opinions on here but the people that have trained Haynes dogs say they are easy to train and great to be around. They may be somewhat biased but most train american bred HT dogs also. Maybe I bought into the marketing hype and BS...only time will tell.


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## firehouselabs (Jan 23, 2008)

I like what both Wildwind and Double T have in pedigrees, health clearances, and working ability, looks, and temperament to be breeding to Wildwinds "Toby" this year, and Double T's "Spud" next year. My female comes from Double T as well. She is the big dog on my avatar.


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## Hope (May 6, 2005)

Good to hear from you hope your well. HOPEing our paths cross again soon
Wayne and Anne



HarryWilliams said:


> Wayne, I'm sure you and Ann will find yourselves a fine labrador puppy that meets what you guys want. Have fun in the search. HOPE'ing I see you all in the field. Harry


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## RemisGunner (Nov 28, 2006)

I have a TT dog right now and he is a very talented dog. It didn't help that I deployed to Iraq for a year shortly after I picked him up so he is a little behind where my Wildrose dog was at this stage, but that's my fault not his. My TT dog has a great nose (amazing is a better word) and he is a natural pointer. He is a hard charger in the field (great stamina) and very calm in the house (unless he knows we're going training or hunting). 

My future dogs will becoming from Wildwind since I have met with Steve and really like him and his dogs. Great guy and his outfit is on the move upward. I was planning on getting one this year some time but it looks like next year I will be back in the sandbox so I don't want to repeat what I did with my TT dog. My wife has given me permission to get two back to back so I want to make sure the timing is right for all involved.


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

mudd said:


> If a guy wanted to learn more about these training practices what would be a GOOD on line source? I'm currently useing Gramm, Lardy etc and have some strong training partners that support that but am very interested in UK training methods.


Im not trolling with this but very serious, Pm me if need be.


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## RemisGunner (Nov 28, 2006)

mudd said:


> Im not trolling with this but very serious, Pm me if need be.


I sent a PM.


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## mountaindogs (Dec 13, 2010)

You guys are just trying to make me feel at home with the my lines are better than yours debates  
Like FT vs NAVHDA vs show vs german bred... in my GSP breed


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## Hunchaser (Jun 15, 2009)

Granddaddy said:


> You're drinking the coolaid, the kennels you have named don't even get hip & elbow clearances on their breeding stock.


Just to let you know I picked up my two scottish pups on wednesday and they came with about 3 pounds of medical documentation. They have more medical clearances than a test pilot. The 6 generation pedigree includes 71 field trial champions (FTCH). 

I'm not saying they are better than N/A dogs. I just think there is more care put into the breeding. Anyway, I'm going to have fun training them. 

At 10 wks old they already chase down the hall, pick up the baby bumper and deliver to hand.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Hunchaser said:


> Just to let you know I picked up my two scottish pups on wednesday and they came with about 3 pounds of medical documentation. They have more medical clearances than a test pilot. The 6 generation pedigree includes 71 field trial champions (FTCH).
> 
> I'm not saying they are better than N/A dogs. I just think there is more care put into the breeding. Anyway, I'm going to have fun training them.
> 
> At 10 wks old they already chase down the hall, pick up the baby bumper and deliver to hand.


Documentation & pedigrees regardless of how thick are not health clearances unless noted on the pedigree. Health clearances would include test for EIC, CNM, PRA, CERF & OFA or PennHip for hips & elbows - and possibly others if the pedigree had a history of some issue. These tests & clearances are not a normal practice for most of the breeders of British dogs in the US. Again this is not to denigrate British dogs but you and other potential buyers should be aware of the potential heartbreak (like the buyer of an affected US bred pup would be) of developing that close relationship with your pup, investing training & care only to find out down the line your dog can't see, or can't continue to train because of dyplasia, etc. Don't be so thin-skinned, I don't comment to criticize, just forewarn those considering the purchase of any pup to make sure your pup has the normal health clearances for conditions that commonly affect Labrador Retrievers.

So the direct question is, did your pup (or sire/dam) have clearances for each noted above?


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## Mark Sehon (Feb 10, 2003)

I own a VERY NICE male from Double TT. QAA, MH, HRCH. 11 years old and still running very hard. Trained with US techniques and philosophies. OFA good hips, normal elbows, Eyes Cerf, EIC & CMN clear. The highest IQ dog I evered trained.


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## crp66 (May 6, 2009)

jax said:


> Anybody else out there have good look with Double T dogs?


I have two labs from Double T and absolutely love them both!!


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## Decoyn (Nov 4, 2008)

We have a Double T 2 1/2 year old female by Spud out of Millbuies Belle that earned her HRCH at 2 years of age. She is the first lab that we have participated in the games with and she has been a great one to learn the ropes with. When training she is all business with good drive and learns concepts easily but around the house and barn she is low key. Our family drove to Kansas to pick our pup and found Floyd very easy to work with and his kennel operation was clean and his dogs looked good.


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## dbg498 (Jan 16, 2011)

I purchased a started lab a year ago from Mark Hairfield at Southaven Kennels. He breeds and imports British labs and springers. I am very happy with the dog I got. He lives in the house with me and we have never heard him bark or whine. Potter is easy to train and really wants to please. He is a pleasure to hunt with and has done well at the lower levels of hunt tests. I am not sure if he is tough enough for field trials. I think most waterfowl hunters would be very pleased with the easy trainability of the british labs.


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## Scout (Dec 23, 2007)

This thread has peeked my interest.

Mainly because I thought virtually all trainers everywhere used ecollars. 

Are there any good UK retriever training books someone can give me a link too.

I would love to read about their methods.


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

^^^^ more so, are there any forums?


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Mark Sehon said:


> I own a VERY NICE male from Double TT. QAA, MH, HRCH. 11 years old and still running very hard. Trained with US techniques and philosophies. OFA good hips, normal elbows, Eyes Cerf, EIC & CMN clear. The highest IQ dog I evered trained.


Mark: If you get Zeke retested, and his count is up, I have a HRCH/MH UK bitch* that would be hot to trot! ;-)

*CERF/EIC/PRA/CNM/OFA hips and elbows ;-)


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## Colonel Blimp (Jun 1, 2004)

*scout* and *mudd*

Two US based forums are run by Robert Milner at http://www.duckhillkennels.com/forums/ and http://www.fetchpup.com/

Books that you may find interesting are "British Training for American Retrievers" by Vic Barlow, and Martin Deeleys works at http://http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Gundog-Training-Practical-Competition/dp/1852237716 All of these are somewhat formulaic, laying down training schemes that progress stepwise towards a goal. A bit more cerebral but a wonderful read is "Gundog Sense and Sensibility" by Wilson Stepens. 

If you care to drop me your email address I can provide a bit of guidance in written form; nothing too heavy just general principles and approximate time lines.

Regards
Eug


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## mlp (Feb 20, 2009)

Scout said:


> This thread has peeked my interest.
> 
> Mainly because I thought virtually all trainers everywhere used ecollars.
> 
> ...


I have the ones Colonel Blimp made mention of and also a good book is GUNDOGS Training and Field Trials, by P.R.A. Moxon. 

I have a dvd that shows some good training for young dogs. Gun Dog Training the Young Labrador , with Stan Harvey. Stan is a former captain of the english gundog team.


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## MJMontgomery (Oct 20, 2009)

Just got my pup from WildWind British Labs in NE. Pup is 10 weeks old and is extremely calm. Almost to calm if that is possisble. Sit, here, get it done, and kennel already accomplished. Off to a good start and at this point I would recommend WildWind to anyone looking for a pup regardless of nationality.


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## jax (May 18, 2010)

MJMontgomery,

Which breeding did you get a pup out of from Wildwind brit labs?


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## MJMontgomery (Oct 20, 2009)

Toby and Charlie


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## Duck Blind (Dec 11, 2010)

Colonel Blimp said:


> *scout* and *mudd*
> 
> If you care to drop me your email address I can provide a bit of guidance in written form; nothing too heavy just general principles and approximate time lines.
> 
> ...


Just sent you a PM.


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## mudd (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for the reply Colonel Blimp, pm sent..


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## Chris Cochran (Jan 14, 2010)

Check out Bobby Stewart at Stewart British Labs. Great dogs and Bobby is great to work with.


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## Burnt Oak Retrievers (Sep 25, 2009)

I have some puppies on the ground right now, 1/4 British (Wildrose, FTCH Baildonian Baron of Craighorn), 1/4 "Show" and 1/2 American field trial (FC/AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger and Bored out Ford), a little something for everyone! haha


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## Dublem (Mar 16, 2011)

I thought I would toss my 2 cents in the mix since many of those mentioned are friends or associates of mine. I am Bud Clouse owner of Dublem Gundogs ( http://sites.google.com/site/dublem...
Bud Clouse,
Dublem Gundogs,
Omaha Nebraska


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Denver said:


> My God, if you don't know where they can find a good British/Irish Breeder, than don't respond! I think some of you act like this is Nazi Germany, and there's only one way!


The OP didn't even list a British or Irish Breeder! What kind of posting standard are we trying to suggest up holding here? 

Bruce Springsteen is singing in the background-


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## Ron Bonneau (Nov 18, 2009)

Dublem said:


> I thought I would toss my 2 cents in the mix since many of those mentioned are friends or associates of mine. I am Bud Clouse owner of Dublem Gundogs ( http://sites.google.com/site/dublem...ha Nebraska[/QUOTE]
> Great post Bud
> Thank You


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## muddyruner (Feb 24, 2009)

I have to agree great post. I know several of the people that you have mentioned and ran in two AGC Trials and could no agree with your post more.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

Tom Hamilton also ran HRC for many years, and titled HRCH dogs (sans collar). He trains "US" and "UK" labs, and I believe a boykin he trained won a division of their Nationals. Tom is as nice a person as you will ever meet in the dog games, of whatever flavor.


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## mattm337 (May 17, 2010)

GulfCoast,

Just out of curiousity, I don't suppose you happen to remember the name of the Boykin he trained?


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## Losthwy (May 3, 2004)

Hope said:


> I am currently in the market for a new pup and want to consider pure british/irish breedings. Besides Wildrose, Double T and Duckhill which I have alread looked into anyone have any suggestions
> Thanks
> Wayne


Check the classifies here at RTF, dogs without the slick marketing, would be my suggestion.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

mattm337 said:


> GulfCoast,
> 
> Just out of curiousity, I don't suppose you happen to remember the name of the Boykin he trained?



This was several years ago, the dog's name was Crash as I recall, his owner was from Alabama.


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