# Heat stroke claims another



## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

I was informed late last night that heat stroke has claimed another of our beloved retrievers.

The dog, a fox red male, about 2.5 to 3 y/o and in shape, had been trained all summer and was somewhat acclimated to the heat.
The dog was dove hunting and had made 4 retrieves, and went down about 3-3:30. Dog was taken to a pond for cooling and failed to respond. Temps were in mid to high 80's.

Please keep this owner in your prayers today. Watch your own dogs very carefully.


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## Hidden Valley (Aug 4, 2003)

Make that 2. I was on a public field sat. when a fella sent his dog for a bird, about TEN MINUTES LATER he started looking for his dog that hadn't come back yet. He was piled up out in the uncut section of corn. It bothered me that he was too busy talking to notice his dog didn't come back, but when he picked him up, through him in the back of his truck and went back hunting, :evil: :evil: 
Luckily the game warden saw it and had a few choice words of "communication" for him.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

Why would someone risk their dogs life for a few dove? MIne stayed home its just to hot and humid to take that chance


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mine is staying home without a doubt this Saturday. There will be plenty more chances later when its cool, for now husband can go pick up his own birds :wink: BTW, he is ok with that, he also would not risk our pup for his game.

This has been a horrid, horrid weekend for RTF'ers. I think all of us need to go home and hug our dogs and appreciate every moment they have shared with us.

I can not believe the story from Smelllikeadog :?: about the dog dissappearing for 10 minutes. What were the other "hunters" doing? Standing around with their thumbs "hidden"??????

Carol


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Make that 2. I was on a public field sat. when a fella sent his dog for a bird, about TEN MINUTES LATER he started looking for his dog that hadn't come back yet. He was piled up out in the uncut section of corn. It bothered me that he was too busy talking to notice his dog didn't come back, but when he picked him up, through him in the back of his truck and went back hunting, :evil: :evil:
> Luckily the game warden saw it and had a few choice words of "communication" for him.


I would have KILLED HIM. He's very lucky I wasn't there. HOW disgusting is that? 

REMEMBER THIS WHEN YOU CONSIDER SELLING SOMEONE A PUPPY!!!!!

Another reason I typically don't sell to "just" hunters... Sorry, but it's true...

-K


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## Last Frontier Labs (Jan 3, 2003)

Some of the best homes my pups have gone to have been "just hunters".
I would be more apt to say screen folks carefully and don't sell pups to folks who don't view their dog as a hunting _partner_.


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Another reason I typically don't sell to "just" hunters... Sorry, but it's true...


C'mon Kristie,There are some "just"hunters that care for thier dogs as good as anyone.It just sounds like this guy was a jerk.Screen for jerks,not hunters.


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Kristie,
Don't know if you've been following the Cletus saga, but Scotty is just a hunter. And Cletus is just a hunting dawg. But I'd say he's being looked after pretty good. And Scotty left Ruby Sue home this weekend for opening day of dove season cause he didn't want to take a chance on her getting overheated or getting snake bitten.
Not picking at you but there are exceptions to every rule.
Take Care,
Becky


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

Illinois Bob said:


> Kristie Wilder said:
> 
> 
> > Another reason I typically don't sell to "just" hunters... Sorry, but it's true...
> ...


Sorry, but in general, and no offense, they are not as educated regarding healthcare issues and general care, nutrition, etc. They might be the most wonderful folks in the world, but that doesn't make up for lack of knowledge and care -- and lack of trying to educate themselves to care best for their dog. It doesn't take that much work. Just look around here and read...

It's a broad brush, but I'd rather be safe than sorry IF it's someone that's not referred to me by someone I trust.

I would venture to say that 95% of people on this board understand the basic care and caution involved with owning, training and hunting a dog. I will limit my market to those folks because I care about the puppies I breed.

-K


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

Becky Mills said:


> Kristie,
> Don't know if you've been following the Cletus saga, but Scotty is just a hunter. And Cletus is just a hunting dawg. But I'd say he's being looked after pretty good. And Scotty left Ruby Sue home this weekend for opening day of dove season cause he didn't want to take a chance on her getting overheated or getting snake bitten.
> Not picking at you but there are exceptions to every rule.
> Take Care,
> Becky


I agree, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take with the puppies I breed. There are also exceptions in the HT and FT world and I will avoid them like the plague regardless of the amount of money in their pocketbooks.

I have friends that are just hunters. I'm not saying they are nasty, awful people. I have clients that are just hunters, and you know what? I spend as much time as they'll let me advising them about how to care for their dogs.

There are exceptions EVERYWHERE and if it's someone I know or someone referred by someone I trust, I will make an exception. Other than that, sorry... But i don't want one of my pups to suffer the fate of the jerk that left his dog to die... And sometimes you can't tell someone is like that prior to selling them a dog...

Again, it's no offense to anyone. I just don't want someone risking a dog's life because they don't understand the physiology of a hunting dog...

NOT to detract from the folks that lost their dogs, I feel badly for them... and their dogs.

-K


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## subroc (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, all I can say is if you are a hunter and you see a litter that was bred by Kristie Wilder remember that this is the lens she views you through. I am sure you can get find a fine breeding elsewhere to meet your needs.

If you are a hunter and need your dog trained by a professional retriever trainer, I expect there are many that don’t hold you and your activity in distain and link it to lower education.

Kristie

Over the years you have ceased to amaze me.

Joe Miano – A hunter and a guy that cares about his dog.

BTW, I won’t paint you with the broad brush as a trainer that hangs dogs in your yard or beats them for not grasping concepts out of frustration or as a breeder of running a puppy mill. After all it may or may not be true. Michael Vick was training dogs. So isn’t Kristie Wilder. Broad Brush?

BTW 2, this post has nothing to do with the above dog dying, only Kristie Wilder’s response and assertion.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

subroc said:


> Well, all I can say is if you are a hunter and you see a litter that was bred by Kristie Wilder remember that this is the lens she views you through. I am sure you can get find a fine breeding elsewhere to meet your needs.
> 
> If you are a hunter and need your dog trained by a professional retriever trainer, I expect there are many that don’t hold you and your activity in distain and link it to lower education.
> 
> ...


Be VERY careful here... I NEVER said hunters weren't educated. I said they are often not educated about THE CARE OF THEIR DOGS.

Look at the news on opening day of dove season in the northern midwestern states. One year when we were in Wisconsin, TWO HUNDRED DOGS died on opening day in Minnesota.

Many hunters are doctors, lawyers, businessmen, HIGHLY EDUCATED, WELL RESPECTED and I would respect them also. But if they aren't interested in educating themselves in the care of their dogs, and I can understand the constraints on their time, then I don't want to subject a puppy to that.

This is my broad brush THROUGH EXPERIENCE, Joe. Through what I've seen, witnessed on my own IN THE FIELD HUNTING (and training) and through stories like the one that discussed two hundred dogs dying on opening day.

It's my opinion. It's not meant disrespectfully. You can make of it what you wish, but do not EVER say I sad that hunters are not educated individuals, as it is often quite the contrary.

There's a dog down the road, that we PICK UP OFF THE ROAD and TAKE TRAINING on an almost DAILY basis (OWNED by a hunter) because I refuse to see him get hit by a car.

I guess you don't run any hunt tests or field trials, Joe??? Because my husband, my friends are hunters, too... My point is that HT and FT folks tend to take more care with their dogs and prevent avoidable injuries and illnesses.

People who have called us on litters know where we stand. I hope I have always been respectful to everyone that has called. But we have our guidelines for puppy placement and I don't see them changing any time soon.

And, to reiterate, I am NOT bashing the original poster. I'm bashing the 2nd story about the buy putting his dead dog in the truck and carrying on.

-K


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## bluduck (May 2, 2006)

subroc said:


> Well, all I can say is if you are a hunter and you see a litter that was bred by Kristie Wilder remember that this is the lens she views you through. I am sure you can get find a fine breeding elsewhere to meet your needs.
> 
> If you are a hunter and need your dog trained by a professional retriever trainer, I expect there are many that don’t hold you and your activity in distain and link it to lower education.
> 
> ...


Well spoken subroc. Oh, and as "just a hunter" I would have killed the guy. Funny that the field trial guy I hunt with looked at me like I was a idiot when I showed up to hunt doves with a cooler full of Ice water. At least my dog doesn't spend most of the day crammed in a dog truck in his own excriment waiting for his "15 minutes"

Regards


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I will limit my market to those folks because I care about the puppies I breed.


I can't argue with that.I just feel bad for the people who hunt and do make an effort to learn,train and care for thier dogs to be avoided as dog owners.I hunt.I have yet to disappoint a breeder yet as to how thier dogs were cared for in my home.(Unless we start talking about Hunt Test succeses  ) And ,even with the best care,sometimes things still happen.I feel bad for the first owner,the one Lablover posted about.That would be such a shock.The second one sounds like he just didn't give a s**t.Keep doing what you're doing Kristie to find pups good homes.I just feel bad that I can never have one.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

Illinois Bob said:


> Kristie Wilder said:
> 
> 
> > I will limit my market to those folks because I care about the puppies I breed.
> ...


AHHHH, reread my post... I said if it was someone I know or who came referred by someone I trust there would be exceptions. I play puppy placement very conservatively. I breed almost NEVER so it's not a hard thing to do. I don't have 3-4+ litters a year, so I'm not scrambling to find buyers...

There are plenty of great folks out there. But when you don't KNOW someone, it's not worth the risk to me. That's all...

If anyone here wanted to buy a pup -- LOL now everyone hates me but hey -- it would take one to two phone calls to find a reference and someone that knows them. I've posted on here before looking for eferences (I keep it vague and say "if you're from the northwest, send me an email")... It doesn't take much effort to find someone that knows someone.

and it doesn't mean I hate all "just hunters"!!! It means I just want to know that they are familiar with overheating, acl tears, hip and eye issues, etc. Enough to know to watch for things and know when something needs care...

-K


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## Hidden Valley (Aug 4, 2003)

2tall said:


> I can not believe the story from Smelllikeadog :?: about the dog dissappearing for 10 minutes. What were the other "hunters" doing? Standing around with their thumbs "hidden"??????
> 
> Carol


They were DRINKING. Which is mainly why the warden was so interested. It was on state property. He was arrested, along with the 3 guys he was with.


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## Hidden Valley (Aug 4, 2003)

Yes, it is good to make sure your pups go to good homes, but look at vet records at any clinic and see how many non-hunters spend hundreds/thousands of $ on vet treatment. How many ht/ft owners are "educated" on how to take care of the dog, or just send it to the vet. I don't know how to fix most of my vehicle, doesn't mean i shouldn't own one.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

duckpopper said:


> Yes, it is good to make sure your pups go to good homes, but look at vet records at any clinic and see how many non-hunters spend hundreds/thousands of $ on vet treatment. How many ht/ft owners are "educated" on how to take care of the dog, or just send it to the vet. I don't know how to fix most of my vehicle, doesn't mean i shouldn't own one.


But you should know well before the engine blows or the wheels fall off and you should perform regular maintenance and make sure it's conditioned for the environment in which you drive it... Right? And, if you don't, your car doesn't "suffer" for your lack of care... But a dog does.

And THAT is where my problem lies...

-K


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I prefer to sell to hunters because I find they not only take outstanding care of their dogs, they appreciate their dogs. People that say they want to compete aren't always the best homes IMHO, especially if they are more interested in the ribbons than the dogs.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2007)

ErinsEdge said:


> I prefer to sell to hunters because I find they not only take outstanding care of their dogs, they appreciate their dogs. People that say they want to compete aren't always the best homes IMHO, especially if are more interested in the ribbons than the dogs.


There are some FT and HT folks that I wouldn't want to sell a pup to, either, but it's a lot easier to find out about them with the small world we operate in...

-K


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Wow.... :shock: 

FOM


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

I think that the solitary life on a Pro's truck is a less than desirable life for a pack animal.

john


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm a hunter and love my dog.......Kristie for you to paint brush all hunters is wrong!


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## kdbauman (Sep 10, 2004)

WOW Indeed

If this is the kind of generalization hunters get from informed folks in our sport, imagine what kind of generalizations the uninformed outside of our sport could imagine????????????


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

As I said, I'm speaking from experience...

Watching a hunter slam his dog head first into the ground because he thought his dog had a "feather stuck in her throat" when she was actually overheating. He could have literally broken her neck while trying to save her from a feather and he was lucky we were there to know what was going on.

I'm thankful for the folks, hunters or not, that want to know what they need to do to take good care of their dogs. But the hunters on here are VERY VERY FEW in relation to the population in general. Look at other hunting boards and see what the discussions are. I'm NOT saying most folks don't love and care for their dogs. They just don't know what to do nor do they take the time to investigate what to do...

As a BREEDER, and BREEDER ONLY (not an individual, not a trainer, not anything else), I will stand by my choice. From MY experience, sounds like nobody else's and that's fine, I've seen enough to make my personal choice.

-K


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

kdbauman said:


> WOW Indeed
> 
> If this is the kind of generalization hunters get from informed folks in our sport, imagine what kind of generalizations the uninformed outside of our sport could imagine????????????


I wouldn't take me as "typical" of someone in the sport... So don't let my views be seen as the general population's views. Clearly they aren't.

I've become very involved in retriever rescue. And many of these dogs are field bred and were sold to "good homes"... I'm tired of it, to be honest. And I have a MAJOR breeding soap box that many breeder's don't have.

So there's no need for any hunters to be offended by anyone but me.

-K


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

At least you do know how to offend someone! :roll:


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## Patrick Johndrow (Jan 19, 2003)

This might be the most humorous thread EVER on RTF and I mean that in a very sad way. :roll: 

Ignorant hunter regards….keep on digging that hole.


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## Jeff B. (Feb 5, 2003)

I wrote a long reply earlier and erased it because no matter how I agree with Kristie it will sound bad to some.

I am first and foremost a hunter. No one takes better care of their dogs then I do. BUT, there are way too many hunters (and pet keepers) that should not have a dog. I see far fewer bad owners that participate in the dog sports. Basically because they are involved and care. Not that most hunters aren't or don't.

Kristie just wants to be able to verify her dogs are going to good solid homes with people that know how to care for them. I don't blame her. If that's easier for her selling her pups to HT or Trial homes so be it.

All I can say is I know where she's coming from.

Jeff


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Beamer81 said:


> At least you do know how to offend someone! :roll:


Of course it's offensive. Just like someone wouldn't sell me a puppy out of an fc/afc bitch breeding. I'm not the market for them. I'm not going to give them the bang for their buck.

Just like the rescue group I work with technically wouldn't place a dog with me because they stay outside most of the day.

But see the difference is that I'm not offended because these are choices they have each made and I don't fit into their group... And I actually understand why...

We all have rules and they're going to offend SOMEONE. But they're all made for a reason based on the beliefs and experiences of the person making them...

I reiterate, for those of you who aren't actually paying attention and get offended and irritated... I NEVER said hunters were stupid. I DID say, as a group, and IN GENERAL (and there ARE exceptions), they are not as educated (either by choice or by naiviety or by ignorance, whatever) about issues concerning health management (for lack of a better term). There are exceptions in every group.

-K


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## PWK (Oct 29, 2003)

Just speachless-wow !!  

Pete Poling
Sometime Breeder
Hunter
Hunt Tester
Dog Owner
Dog Trainer
But FIRST AND FOREMOST Dog LOVER


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

So, I ask. If you had to kennel your dog for a week with someone, would you rather leave it with Kristie or the "hunter" who through his dog suffering from heatstroke into the back of his truck? Anyone want to care to discuss how many "hunters" I have observed over the past 25 years doing completely unimaginably cruel things to their hunting dog on public waterfowl refuges? Come on people, by and large there are some highly uneducated people out there doing things that in many ways are just as bad as Vick.

Just like in training you have to set your standard high and I'll take someone like Kristie with her standards over Joe Schmuck at the duck pond any day.

/Paul


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## PWK (Oct 29, 2003)

I would not leave my dogs with anyone that I could not trust to take the very best care of them. If they are a hunter or pro trainer does not matter,Character and fairness and compation do.Generalizations are just plain wrong but Kristy can do what she wants with her pups.I just think she is passing up some potentially great homes for her dogs.I will now take my 3 abused hunting dogs and we will all crawl into my king sized bed for the evening.  

Pete


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

Gun_Dog2002 said:
 

> So, I ask. If you had to kennel your dog for a week with someone, would you rather leave it with Kristie or the "hunter" who through his dog suffering from heatstroke into the back of his truck? Anyone want to care to discuss how many "hunters" I have observed over the past 25 years doing completely unimaginably cruel things to their hunting dog on public waterfowl refuges? Come on people, by and large there are some highly uneducated people out there doing things that in many ways are just as bad as Vick.
> 
> Just like in training you have to set your standard high and I'll take someone like Kristie with her standards over Joe Schmuck at the duck pond any day.
> 
> /Paul


I have nothing at all against Kristie for all she has achieved.I have alot of respect for her and would be happy to leave my dog in her care.How she picks puppy buyers is her choice and as long as it works to get them good homes I'm all for it.But please don't group hunters into one big group.There are good hunters that follow the rules and care for thier dogs and there are slob hunters who don't care about anything.The good hunters are usually just as pissed off at idiots like the second guy with the dead dog as Kristie was.In defense of hunters,don't group the slobs with the good guys.If AKC get's wind of this they might change the rule books and make you guys drink and drool like Joe Schmuck just to imitate a typical days hunt at a Field Trial.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

PWK said:


> I would not leave my dogs with anyone that I could not trust to take the very best care of them. If they are a hunter or pro trainer does not matter,Character and fairness and compation do.Generalizations are just plain wrong but Kristy can do what she wants with her pups.I just think she is passing up some potentially great homes for her dogs.I will now take my 3 abused hunting dogs and we will all crawl into my king sized bed for the evening.
> 
> Pete


Read again... I have and will sell to hunting homes with references I know and trust. ...now go kick your dogs. 

-K


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## Ed Bahr (Jul 1, 2007)

Then I guess all dog owners are represented by Micheal Vick.....Including you Kristie :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Beamer81 said:


> Then I guess all dog owners are represented by Micheal Vick.....Including you Kristie :lol:


only on days I force fetch. :twisted: :twisted: 

Guys, don't get carried away. Here's the bottom line... I can get a reference quickly from someone I know on mostly anyone who runs tests or trials, if I don't know them already. I can't say the same for some hunter calling from whereever. And I'm not going to take that risk without a reference from someone I trust.

The 2nd story of the dog dying made me really mad and that's why I posted the "hunter" generalization, which I stand by FOR STRANGERS. Whenever there's a tragic story like that, my answer is ALWAYS "be careful where you place your puppies".... 

-K


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## Rodger Williams (Mar 9, 2005)

Personally, I don't know of but a very few people involved in Hunt Tests and Field Trials, who wasn't a hunter first.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

I feel like Lainee, WOW. But hold the friggin phone. What Kristie *said* as opposed to what some heard, was that she would not sell a dog to someone that described themselves as "just a hunter". As far as I can tell that potential buyer did not say anything about buying a dog because they wanted a dog. Just an unexplained need for a "hunting dog".

I stand behind Kristies desire to screen the homes for her pups. I do not believe she disqualifies hunting homes. The very kind person that directed me to my pup hoped for a competition home for all her get, but decided that I should have a shot. I do not resent that. 

Also, you have to, as dog lovers, have an almost equal anger reaction to the 2nd post about the dog dieing in the field with no concern on the part of the owner. So yes, Kristie, you probably stated a reactionary position, but at least a few of us understand where it came from.

Calm down, and ask yourself how you would choose the home for your pups. Would you not ask questions and seek references?

I am not and never will be a breeder. I love dogs. Lets make a united effort to keep our good dogs out of hands like described in post 2.

Carol


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Placing pups..I own the pup until I decide to sell it. It is my decision as it is Kristie's.

Just because someone wants a pup and has the cold cash does not mean that I have to sell a pup to that person. That pup is not a pair of shoes or a purse.

The decision for me is based on gut feeling, some of it is references, some of it is the track record of the potential buyer (I don't want to hear several sad stories about what happended to previous Fidos) and finally, some of it is my personal standards - placing the pup in the best most permanent home that I can find.

I would personally donate an animal to search and rescue or school of the blind before I would knowingly place an animal in a home that I thought may not to give the pup the best chance to have a permanent home with the best care available.


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## john fallon (Jun 20, 2003)

Kristie Wilder said:


> *Just like the rescue group I work with technically wouldn't place a dog with me because they stay outside most of the day.*
> But see the difference is that I'm not offended because these are choices they have each made and I don't fit into their group... *And I actually understand why...*
> We all have rules and they're going to offend SOMEONE. But they're all made for a reason based on the beliefs and experiences of the person making them...
> 
> ...


Help us out here. WHY :?: 
BTW. Where do they stay at night :wink: 

Don't do as I do do as I say regards.
john


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

john fallon said:


> Kristie Wilder said:
> 
> 
> > *Just like the rescue group I work with technically wouldn't place a dog with me because they stay outside most of the day.*
> ...


They stay inside at night. I work with major behavioral and socialization cases to rehab them so they can be placed in homes.

I'm not sure what you're asking "why" to... If it's directed to the rescue group's decision to not place where dogs spend the day outside -- it's one small way they can try to make sure the dog is becoming a family dog and not just a yard dog.

-K


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## Mike Perry (Jun 26, 2003)

I know Kristie, have runt tests with her, and all of our dogs should be lucky enough to be in her kennel. She treats her dogs like they are her kids and in spite of what a lot are thinking they are exceptional performers. Consistent Master ands Master National qualifiers.

I started sending my hunting dogs home 2 weeks ago and was reluctant in especially one case because the guy was going an a dove hunt where they killed 1200 last year. It is hot here in the south and I continually warned him about the heat. He is a good guy but excitable and I could see him getting jacked up in the shooting and forgetting the most valuable thing he had on the hunt, truck included , is his dog.
Have not spoken to him this week yet althouhg he is on my call list for today and I am really hoping his dog is still OK.

Some of you really missed the boat on this one.

Regards
Mike Perry 
who trains dogs primarily to hunt with and still enjoys the HT game


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

What we had here was a lack of communication. I know Kristie, too, and have a tremendous amount of respect for her. And I didn't get mad when she said she didn't sell to hunters. But I did want her to know the hunting dogs at this house get the same conditioning, supplements, groceries and health care as my pseudo trial dog. Plus, as others pointed out, a whole lot of us got in these silly games cause we wanted a hunting dog. 
All Kristie had to do was clarify she doesn't sell to hunters unless she had references from people she knew. That makes perfect sense. She doesn't sell to H.T. and F.T. people unless she has references. 
Like I said, all I needed was some clarification and Kristie provided it.
Case closed.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I just read this and WOW is postable but not what I was thinking.

I would also assume then that when you see the STOP sign all shot up that hunters did that also.

The difference between your standards and those of the people that wouldn't sell/give you a dog is that you came on a public forum and said it.

I am offended by your statements and feel that people like you are digging into a sport that I really love.

You should remember that if not for hunters, HT and dog games wouldn't even exist.

Screen carefully and don't stereotype.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

In my opinion, if you post message on RTF, then you are not the typical hunter. You have a large interest in dogs. You may be a hunter but your also a dog person. When speaking in generalizations you have to take the whole group into consideration. Percentage wise, the people who are both hunters and dog people is quite small. Be offended if you want. Thats a personal problem. As a group, most hunters are not familiar with the healthcare, training and use of gun dogs. Just hit any of the pure hunting forums and review the questions being asked there regarding their dogs. 


/Paul


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Ken Newcomb said:


> I just read this and WOW is postable but not what I was thinking.
> 
> I would also assume then that when you see the STOP sign all shot up that hunters did that also.
> 
> ...


Sorry you don't understand. You are welcome to offended. ...as offended as I am that someone wouldn't sell me a trial prospect out of an FC/AFC bitch... which means I'm not at all offended.

Yes, I said it, specifically because of the SECOND story and MANY others like it that I have both read and witnessed. I have good reason to set boundaries that I won't sell to hunters that don't come with references, just as I won't sell to ANY home that doesn't come without references... But watching dogs live at preserves and plantations either running loose or living in their own crap. Watching people overwork their dogs or take them out with no conditioning... Sorry, if I don't know you I absolutely AM going to generalize and not take a risk. 

I guess you would let a stranger come up and take your child on a trip for the day? What??? Now why not? If you had someone that you knew was an alcoholic that wanted to take your child to the park for the day, why wouldn't you? Aren't you stereotyping all alcholics? Some would do just fine, right? Well, we are ALLOWED by nature to stereotype and judge. It's in our best interest to do so in order to preserve our safety and well-being. Are you going to walk down the dark alley in a seedy part of the city in the middle of the night? Why not? Aren't you stereotyping??? I know these are exaggerations and apples to oranges, but the idea is the same. From MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I will not sell to a hunter that I have no reference on. I have learned frome experience that it's not in the best interest of either me or my puppies -- UNLESS I have a good reference!!!

And, while we're at it... I don't sell to people who have "brood bitches" or to people whose primary interest is breeding above all else. Is it offensive to do that??? 

And why is it offensive anyway? If you don't like the rules, then don't get a puppy from me and don't respect me as a breeder (or anything else if you want). But why should you be offended???

-K


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## Ozpa (Jan 31, 2003)

Kristie, 

My experience has been much different than yours, apparently. In my experience hunters are likely to take MUCH better care of their hunting dogs than the general population of non-hunters. Hunters are far more likely to have adequately trained dogs, particularly when it comes to obedience, than is the average dog owner. 

Hunters, IME, tend to have a relationship with their hunting dogs that transcends the relationships people have with their non-working dogs, or at least that transcends their relationship with their non-hunting house dogs.

Now, I understand that you aren't likely to be selling your pups to a non-hunting, non-competing home BUT what I see is you taking a shot at "hunters" because they aren't the elite-of-the-elite that frequent this board, Field Trials, Hunt Tests, or Dog shows.

In the end there are millions of dogs available in this country. There are millions of hunters, but significantly fewer hunters than non-hunting dog owners. There are perhaps tens of thousands of HT, FT, and show competitors. Sure, those who participate at the highest levels of dog handling are going to have more knowledge than your average hunter...BUT your average hunter is still going to be a better dog owner than your average, run-of-the mill, house dog owner.

Todd


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

I'd be much more willing to sell my pups to hunters than Field Trialers. I got into dogs through hunting and have found that hunters in general have stronger bonds with their dogs than field trialers. I've never met a hunter that got rid of their dog because it wasn't the top notch hunting dog they had hoped for yet I've seen it time and time again with field trialers. How's that for generizations. Kristie you sank many notches in my eyes as a result of this thread.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

If you're a hunter, and you want a pup from a future breeding of Kristie's, and through references, she can be satisfied that you will take very good care of the pup, you will probably be able to buy one. This is no different than me saying I wouldn't sell a pup to a pro trainer, unless I knew of his/her training methods. I wouldn't sell a pup to a pro trainer who in my opinion, is way too rough on his/her dogs. I bet Kristie is not offended by that. It's also no different than me saying I wouldn't sell to a breeder unless I knew of their breeding practices. If the so-called breeder is a puppy mill, or didn't have sound breeding practices, damn straight they wouldn't get one of my pups. Be offended all you want, but anyone who owns a litter of pups has the right to sell or NOT sell to anyone they want. There are lots of good hunters out there who take very good care of their dogs, but there also way too many who are like the idiot who was drinking and hunting, letting his dog die.


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## toddh (Nov 3, 2005)

Ozpa said:


> Kristie,
> 
> My experience has been much different than yours, apparently. In my experience hunters are likely to take MUCH better care of their hunting dogs than the general population of non-hunters. *Hunters are far more likely to have adequately trained dogs, particularly when it comes to obedience, than is the average dog owner. *
> 
> ...


You haven't been to North Dakota then. The number of undisciplined, untrained "hunting" dogs around here amazes me.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

toddh said:


> Ozpa said:
> 
> 
> > Kristie,
> ...


And whenever my clients return from a hunt where they used the guide's dogs in almost EVERY part of the country and beyond... It's normally "man I wish I had my dog with me, their dog was breaking, etc. etc." On one hunt, my client had to watch while the guide's two dogs went OOC and hunted down and killed a possum or some other sort of varmint...

-K


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Terry Thomas said:


> I'd be much more willing to sell my pups to hunters than Field Trialers. I got into dogs through hunting and have found that hunters in general have stronger bonds with their dogs than field trialers. I've never met a hunter that got rid of their dog because it wasn't the top notch hunting dog they had hoped for yet I've seen it time and time again with field trialers. How's that for generizations. Kristie you sank many notches in my eyes as a result of this thread.


Who said "field trialers"?? It sure wasn't me...

I also don't sell to people who have a history of buying, selling and washing out REGARDLESS of the venue.

-K


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Kristie: What I find offensive is your derogatory generalization of hunters. It is everybit as prejudicial as saying "I wouldn't sell a pup to an African American and then trying to justify it by bringing up Mike Vick & Woopie Goldberg"


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Terry Thomas said:


> Kristie: What I find offensive is your derogatory generalization of hunters. It is everybit as prejudicial as saying "I wouldn't sell a pup to an African American and then trying to justify it by bringing up Mike Vick & Woopie Goldberg"


Not even close... That would be the equivalent of saying " i wouldn't sell to a caucasian"... What it's closer to is "I wouldn't sell to an NFL football player"... And that might be true. It's a group or two down from a race/color/creed...

I have a generalization of hunters I DON'T KNOW -- YES, I do. I also have a generalization of trialers who have no relationship with their dogs, buy and sell frequently, and pass them off to others to live out their old age -- YES, I do. I also have a generalization of breeders who have monthly litters, gobs of puppies and whom I feel, GENERALLY, would have an awfully hard time placing the puppies CAREFULLY -- YES, I do.

It's the God's honest truth. It's something I've learned in a handful of I guess short years of breeding. I've had a couple of pups fall through the cracks, not into terrible situations, but into situations less than ideal. And I get concerned. And I don't want to have to worry about them...

-K


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Terry Thomas said:


> Kristie: What I find offensive is your derogatory generalization of hunters. It is everybit as prejudicial as saying "I wouldn't sell a pup to an African American and then trying to justify it by bringing up Mike Vick & Woopie Goldberg"


I disagree. Hunters have the opportunity to change their dog ignorance. One cannot change the race they are born into. Course I live in a country where ignorance of the law is no excuse, and there is no cure for stupid. Much different IMHO.

/Paul


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## Ozpa (Jan 31, 2003)

toddh said:


> Ozpa said:
> 
> 
> > Kristie,
> ...


Don't mistake "untrained" with poorly trained...and don't expect the average hunter to train a dog to your level. In any event those "untrained" dogs have probably gotten more work than most house dogs.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Ozpa said:


> toddh said:
> 
> 
> > Don't mistake "untrained" with poorly trained...and don't expect the average hunter to train a dog to your level. In any event those "untrained" dogs have probably gotten more work than most house dogs.
> ...


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Terry Thomas said:
> 
> 
> > Kristie: What I find offensive is your derogatory generalization of hunters. It is everybit as prejudicial as saying "I wouldn't sell a pup to an African American and then trying to justify it by bringing up Mike Vick & Woopie Goldberg"
> ...


Now there's a post that I can't make any sense of.


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## Jeff B. (Feb 5, 2003)

Like has been said several times already, hunters are an unknown entity to Kristie when she is looking to place a pup so she's not comfortable with it unless she can get solid references. She stated the same is true for competition homes if she doesn't know the people or someone who does. Since she's much more likely to know the competition people wanting a puppy that's where her comfort zone lies. It's no more complicated then that!

Again, I have been a hardcore hunter for 25 years. I have to believe some of the people here taking offense have not been around too much. I have seen a Brittany shot in the field for not listening, heard the pistol shots from a "guide" culling hound puppies that wouldn't stay on a lion track, seen too many frustrated hunters abusing their dogs in the field and marsh for not doing what someone wants after thier grand total of two days of training and way, way too many "hunting' dogs chained up to the corner of a pole barn because the owner lost interest or got frustrated training them.

I just read a post the other day on another forum stating the guy did not believe in spending more on health care then he paid for the dog. Too many people view their hunting dogs as tools and nothing more. How can you blame someone for being leary of selling a dog to one of these people?

All of my friends are hunters or run dogs. I have nothing in commom with anyone else. Face the fact that just because you as a hunter love and care for your dogs does not mean that all hunters do.

Jeff


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

> I guess you would let a stranger come up and take your child on a trip for the day?


The day you loose someone very close to you then you come back and compare a child to a dog. As much as I love my dogs they don't even compare to a child. 

I lost a sister to cancer when she was quite young. I would personally slit the throat of every dog I own to have her back. DON'T EVER COMPARE A DOG TO CHILD!!!!



> you knew was an alcoholic


Your best analogy for a hunter is an alcoholic. :roll: I guess it fits with your first stereotype.


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Jeff B. said:


> Again, I have been a hardcore hunter for 25 years. I have to believe some of the people here taking offense have not been around too much. I have seen a Brittany shot in the field for not listening, heard the pistol shots from a "guide" culling hound puppies that wouldn't stay on a lion track, seen too many frustrated hunters abusing their dogs in the field and marsh for not doing what someone wants after thier grand total of two days of training and way, way too many "hunting' dogs chained up to the corner of a pole barn because the owner lost interest or got frustrated training them.


Jeff, I was probably hunting before you were born and have hunted in more than half the states in this union. I've owned and trained my own hunting dogs since the early sixties




Jeff B. said:


> All of my friends are hunters or run dogs. I have nothing in commom with anyone else. Face the fact that just because you as a hunter love and care for your dogs does not mean that all hunters do.
> Jeff


And it certainly doesn't mean most hunters don't love their dogs. But, you know your friends.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Terry Thomas said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > Terry Thomas said:
> ...


There is a difference between hating someone because they choose to behave a certain way and hating someone because of something they have no control over. Ignorance vs race. 

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Jeff B. said:


> Like has been said several times already, hunters are an unknown entity to Kristie when she is looking to place a pup so she's not comfortable with it unless she can get solid references. She stated the same is true for competition homes if she doesn't know the people or someone who does. Since she's much more likely to know the competition people wanting a puppy that's where her comfort zone lies. It's no more complicated then that!
> 
> Again, I have been a hardcore hunter for 25 years. I have to believe some of the people here taking offense have not been around too much. I have seen a Brittany shot in the field for not listening, heard the pistol shots from a "guide" culling hound puppies that wouldn't stay on a lion track, seen too many frustrated hunters abusing their dogs in the field and marsh for not doing what someone wants after thier grand total of two days of training and way, way too many "hunting' dogs chained up to the corner of a pole barn because the owner lost interest or got frustrated training them.
> 
> ...


I got shot last year by a lifetime hunter of 40+ years. This thread is cracking me up....

/Paul


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I got shot last year by a lifetime hunter of 40+ years. This thread is cracking me up....
> 
> /Paul


Somebody recognized you! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> There is a difference between hating someone because they choose to behave a certain way and hating someone because of something they have no control over. Ignorance vs race.
> 
> /Paul


So Paul, are you generalizing and saying that hunter _in general_ are ignorant?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Terry Thomas said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > I got shot last year by a lifetime hunter of 40+ years. This thread is cracking me up....
> ...


Well, that may be.  But he completely denied it during the officer interview and hearing.

/Paul


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Terry Thomas said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > I got shot last year by a lifetime hunter of 40+ years. This thread is cracking me up....
> ...


That would be me. I was gonna have him mounted, but this ain't Arkansas. 

Just winged him a little regards

Bubba


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Ken Newcomb said:


> > I guess you would let a stranger come up and take your child on a trip for the day?
> 
> 
> The day you loose someone very close to you then you come back and compare a child to a dog. As much as I love my dogs they don't even compare to a child.
> ...


I didn't compare a dog to a child. Spare me on that one. You don't know whom I've lost and whom I've haven't and shame on you for assuming what you think you know about me.

I was comparing the situation of TRUST, JUDGMENT and GENERALIZATION. They are the same regardless of whether it's a child, dog, your car, your job or yourself...

ps -- let me add here that when someone calls and they are "just a hunter", I don't tell them that I won't sell them a dog because they don't know anything. I've had lots of great conversations with folks that are "just hunters" and sent them other directions for pups with I don't think any offense. The other issue, of course, is that we want to see on paper that our breeding worked and you can't get that with hunting. But we do have a puppy questionnaire and I encourage folks to fill that out and I will chat with them and be open about what my "issues" are. I don't think I've ever had but one person be pissed off and he was like "just name your price" and while some people may think they hit the jackpot and would take his money, I couldn't have given two squats and that was the end of the conversation. Maybe not good for my financial position, but good for my peace of mind.
-K


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Terry Thomas said:


> Gun_Dog2002 said:
> 
> 
> > There is a difference between hating someone because they choose to behave a certain way and hating someone because of something they have no control over. Ignorance vs race.
> ...


In some regards yes. Most of the gundog owners I work with have a very low general education on the specific needs of working dogs. Oh they know and understand basic care of a dog around the house, but really don't have a clue about common injuries gundogs experience. Test it out for yourself. Next time your out in the field, just casually ask the hunter if he has a first aid dog kit for his dog with him anywhere. Now doesn't having a first aid kit seem like pretty basic common knowledge? Our local gundog club decided to do just this little exercise. Out of 30+ people in the club asking this question during the pheasants hunts on the local refuge, 3 years ago, only 14% of the people asked actually had a first aid kit in the car and half of that had one specific for the dog. Over 300 people were asked. So I ask you, does that sound ignorant?

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Terry Thomas said:
> 
> 
> > Gun_Dog2002 said:
> ...


Ya well you gonna have to kill me to successfully mount me...

/Paul


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## Kyle B (May 5, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Ya well you gonna have to kill me to successfully mount me.../Paul


Ah, prison rules.


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## Terry Thomas (Jun 27, 2005)

Well if the people on this page have that poor of an opinion of hunters and are that quick to slander hunters, they certainly won't want anything to do with me. I hold hunting with my dogs above hunt tests and fiel trials am I am not interrested in participating with anti hunters of any kind.


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## toddh (Nov 3, 2005)

Ozpa said:


> Don't mistake "untrained" with poorly trained...and don't expect the average hunter to train a dog to your level. In any event those "untrained" dogs have probably gotten more work than most house dogs.


If you consider "training" to be throwing a bumper in the backyard a couple nights a week...then I suppose you are right.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

Terry Thomas said:


> Well if the people on this page have that poor of an opinion of hunters and are that quick to slander hunters, they certainly won't want anything to do with me. I hold hunting with my dogs above hunt tests and fiel trials am I am not interrested in participating with anti hunters of any kind.


Who was quick to slander hunters??? I said that they are not as well educated on the care and management of their dogs. I didn't say they were idiots, i didn't say they were bad people. I would, as a general rule with absolute exceptions, not consider an "uknown" (to me) hunter for placement of a puppy.

Did I say hunters are morons? I said from my experience, they are not up to speed on a lot of things concerning the care and welfare of their dogs. I have seen and know this to be true from MY perspective.

How is it slanderous??

And who's anti-hunter??? 

-K


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## Jeff B. (Feb 5, 2003)

Terry,

I agree, most hunters do love their dogs. That's not the point though.

As far as the shot you took about my friends. My friends don't fall into the category of folks were talking about. I'm simply stating that I, and all of my friends, are hunters and Kristie's statement doesn't bother me a bit.

Surely, with your hunting experience, you have come across examples of other hunters who you knew didn't do the right thing for their dogs. Have you not?

This whole thing has gotten blown way out of proportion.

Jeff


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Terry Thomas said:


> Well if the people on this page have that poor of an opinion of hunters and are that quick to slander hunters, they certainly won't want anything to do with me. I hold hunting with my dogs above hunt tests and fiel trials am I am not interrested in participating with anti hunters of any kind.


Terry I don't think anyone is saying that. It is possible to be a hunter and dog person. You apparently are as you are pretty active on this board. You obviously have taken time to learn more about your dogs, train your dogs etc. Again, you, like most of us are in the minority. I hunted with a client last year and his guide. The guides dogs were horribly uncontrolled and after hunting in the freezing weather where ice formed on the coat, he just opened the tailgate and put the dog in the back of the truck bed. He then took off down I-5 at 70 mph with a frozen loose dog in the back. I asked my client about it and he shook his head, said the guide's two dogs were both like that and he considered them hunting gear just like everything else. When asked the, guide said "Course they lived in the house but they're dogs, and after all thats what dogs do. " 

Don't take it so personal. I train a couple of started dogs a year and sell them, you can bet I check out hte homes thier going too before I let them go. It would be irresponsible to place them someplace that won't take care of them. 

/Paul


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

I think its great that Kristie qualifies her potential buyers and sell only to whomever she is comfortable with. Tells me she's in it for much more than puppy profit. An off-the-street hunter (or pet-only person) is hard to qualify, and I think she said she will sell to a hunter so long as she can get good references or some other way to feel comfortable that the dog will be taken care of and perform the work s/he was bred to do. Supply and demand: sounds like she's created adequate demand to be as picky as she likes. (Not that Kristie needs me defending her).

A few years back, I was "just a hunter" who had never owned a retriever before. Moving back to Houston, I decided I'd get back into duck hunting. My two bird dogs were 12 and 14; there wasn't much hunt left in them. I'll never forget how I felt when I called a well-known area Lab breeder who gave me the royal inquisition and all but said she wouldn't sell one of her, $1200, due-in-3 weeks puppies to me. (After failing my "interview", she offered to meet me and my family in person if we'd drive out). Knowing what I do now, I wouldn't have one from this kennel anyway.

It only spurred me to go as far beyond "just hunting" as I could with my dogs. I bought a decently bred YLF who should (knock wood) earn her MH this fall, as should her pup who's only 1 pass behind her. 

You pay your money, you take your chances. If you're a breeder in a seller's market, you may manage it however you wish. An uninformed buyer isn't likely to source the premium breedings, and if they do stumble on one, they're not likely to pay top dollar. If its an educated hunter who's not into training and puppy raising, but knows what they're doing, they're more likely to want a started dog anyway.


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## David Barrow (Jun 14, 2005)

*Dog lost because of heat.*

Dick,

I just had a call from Hank M. that Magic died in the field on Monday, I have to assume this is the Dog your are referring to.

This is truly a somewhat sad story. This dog "Magic" along with one other black male out of my Breeding of "Meg" and "Gates"was my pick as a exceptional pup. A fellow getting back into the sport said he would like to purchase the pup, gave him many ours of Love and Training, the dog went everywhere and anywhere his owner went, spending many hours together. The pup showed a lot of promise went two for two in both junior and senoir hunt tests before becoming a year old. Won several Puppy Stakes at Tidewater RC, won the VRB Puppy stake. Then as fast as he came into the owners heart, he went out. The owner fell in love with a nice lady and out of love with his nice dog. After a couple of weeks of being in the pen with out any attention, I the breeder, picked up the pup and began the process of trying to find him a home. A Pro trainer out of Georgia looked at the dog for a couple of weeks, said he was hooking guns, and I again got the pup back. I live in a town with a four dog limit and could not keep the pup, so he was again looking for a new home.
The current owner ( an avid hunter 80+ years young with many years of experience with retrievers) aquired the now 18 month old dog and I could not have been happier. After a short time of bonding and learning each others ways things started to click between them.
At the VRB held last month "Magic" and his new best friend HM, WON the Gun Dog Stake in remarkable fashion, lining his blind and pinning his marks. HM took home the Trophy but "Magic" took everyones Heart.

He would not give up until he found the Bird and he is now finding every bird without delay. 
Thanks for the memories "Magic" 9/06/05 - 9/03/07

Please pass this information on:
Our dogs are bred to give us everything they can, they will die for us. Please give the same consideration using any and all precautions needed, including walking out and picking up your bird if needed.

David Barrow


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

David, thank you for putting this thread back in perspective. Instead of all the thrashing and bashing,that was a very important, if sad, reminder of our responsibility to these amazing creatures. 

If you have to ask, Is it a little warm to take the dog today, DONT.
If you do anyway, take plenty of cool down aids and know the temperature of the water you plan to use for cooling.
If you are liable to get carried away with the shooting, have someone with you to run the dog.

Do not mock my thoughts because of my lack of experience. All of the above are rules I enforce on myself for my dog. As far as I am concerned, September is a dangerous month for dogs. In addition to the heat, lack of condition, this is also the most active time for snakes and bees. My pup can hunt plenty in January. For now we will stick with controlled circumstances.

Please, take heed and take care.


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Yes this post was about Magic. I had trained with Magic when it was with it's original owner, and with it's last owner. He was an exceptional dog!

I posted this sad horrible story to remind all trainers, and hunters to pay close attention to their dogs when training or hunting in the heat. Perhaps my post will save a dogs life; as is my intention.

I wish that there had be no reason to post, however.


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## DEDEYE (Oct 27, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> 2tall said:
> 
> 
> > I can not believe the story from Smelllikeadog :?: about the dog dissappearing for 10 minutes. What were the other "hunters" doing? Standing around with their thumbs "hidden"??????
> ...


Drinking? Hmmm.. Alcohol, dogs, and guns. SOunds like a great mix. :evil:


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2007)

lablover said:


> Yes this post was about Magic. I had trained with Magic when it was with it's original owner, and with it's last owner. He was an exceptional dog!
> 
> I posted this sad horrible story to remind all trainers, and hunters to pay close attention to their dogs when training or hunting in the heat. Perhaps my post will save a dogs life; as is my intention.
> 
> I wish that there had be no reason to post, however.


Thank you guys for posting the update. Very sad...  I hate it for him.

-K


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

I guess that I would not be able to buy a pup from Kristie. I am 77 years old and now mostly breed Labs, have hunted extensively for most of my life. But then I don't buy many brood bitches, I raise them from pups from our kennel. My legs will no longer allow me to train, so I use a pro trainer that I have run dogs with, judged him running other dogs and have met his daughter that he had a hand in training her. I like the way he treats dogs, his daughter and his wife. He is Bart Posey of Wonderlab Kennel.

People are people. There are hunters, pet owners, breeders and trainers that I would not let have one of our pups if I knew their attitude towards dogs. We do the best we can, but do not have the expertise that the young lady doing all the posting seems to have, but I wish her well with her endeavor. I hope any that I have offended will forgive me for I am basically just a red neck hunter, born in Alabama, worked for AU in Camden, AL for 26 years, then 22 year ago moved to MS to do dogs full time. Those dogs have given me an extended life, keeping me busy. I AM A DOG LOVER. Sincerely, Bill Watson
________
WEB SHOWS


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2007)

Bill Watson said:


> (snip)We do the best we can, but do not have the *expertise that the young lady doing all the posting* seems to have, but I wish her well with her endeavor. (snip)


It has NOTHING to do with expertise. It has to do with business practices, ethics and personal experience. It comes from my heart and soul. It has nothing to do with "elite" field trialers, far from it. I run maybe one trial every two years, and only qual. So that's not my crowd anyway. It has nothing to do with "dumb hunters" which are words that never came from my mouth. It has to do with wanting what's the best life for the pups we breed.

We've tried to do right by our puppies from our very first litter, have had fewer litters than I can count on two hands and plan to have very few in the future. So nobody needs to get their feelings hurt. There are plenty of puppies to go around... Too many, in my opinion. But that's another soapbox altogether...

BTW, as an aside -- I have a heap of well-bred master hunter bitches (a few of whom haven't failed but maybe one or two tests in the last 3-4 years) and could be pumping out puppies left and right and be out of debt... I won't do it. Does that offend anyone??? Just like my choice of placement, I also make a deliberate choice to NOT breed for the sake of breeding and pumping out puppies. I don't want to HAVE to get rid of pups. I want to be able to be selective about where they go...

-K


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## fred (Aug 12, 2007)

Hey Kristie,
I'm a hunter and looking for a pup, got any litters coming up? Maybe you should keep some of your opinions to yourself. Did'nt your momma teach you, "if you can't say somethin nice, don't say it at all"? Alright, enough jokes. You have some people pretty fired up including me. As a breeder you have every right to sell pups to whoever you want. But as a breeder, you should not discriminate publicly (yes, I said DISCRIMINATE) against a certain sect of the dog owning population. I don't have a problem with your policies, just your actions and reactions to this thread.


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## fred (Aug 12, 2007)

How 'bout suggesting some good reading to bring some of us uneducated hunters up to snuff on our dogs' health..


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## lab-a-holic (Sep 18, 2006)

I am totally baffled - why are people getting so worked up because Kristie is concerned about the placement of the puppies she is responsible for bringing into this world? In my book - all breeders should have this concern - this is what I call a responsible breeder.


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## labinitup (Jan 4, 2005)

Kristie Wilder said:


> I said that they are not as well educated on the care and management of their dogs.
> -K


lab-a-holic

People gettin' worked up because Kristie continues to repeat the above statement...

William W


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## lab-a-holic (Sep 18, 2006)

Soooo - why are so many dogs dying of heat stroke? Obviously there are many out there who do not know how to take care of their dogs - from reading all the posts Kristie has had bad experiences with the way many dogs have been treated at hunts - if she wants to be careful about who she sells her pups to - that's great.


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## labinitup (Jan 4, 2005)

lab-a-holic said:


> Soooo - why are so many dogs dying of heat stroke? Obviously there are many out there who do not know how to take care of their dogs - from reading all the posts Kristie has had bad experiences with the way many dogs have been treated at hunts - if she wants to be careful about who she sells her pups to - that's great.


I agree with you lab-a-holic! No disagreement here...

You ask what is getting people so worked up and I told you!!! :wink: 

William W


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2007)

fred said:


> Hey Kristie,
> I'm a hunter and looking for a pup, got any litters coming up? Maybe you should keep some of your opinions to yourself. Did'nt your momma teach you, "if you can't say somethin nice, don't say it at all"? Alright, enough jokes. You have some people pretty fired up including me. As a breeder you have every right to sell pups to whoever you want. But as a breeder, you should not discriminate publicly (yes, I said DISCRIMINATE) against a certain sect of the dog owning population. I don't have a problem with your policies, just your actions and reactions to this thread.


Absolutely I discriminate and I hope others do, too, in the placement of their pups. I have discriminated against a variety of folks in a variety of situations. I have discriminated against people with a history of washing and selling dogs in volume. I have disciminated against people who I see posting "for sale" ads for bitches in heat that "can be bred now". I have discriminated against people who I know have placed puppies and dogs in bad situations. And I have every right to do so.

You can be as fired up as you want. That's you personally... Not me.

And clearly, like some others, you haven't read my posts and given any thought to what I'm trying to do in placing puppies. PREVENT unnecessary tragedies, suffering and negligence.

If you are a hunter and I don't know you and I don't know someone I trust that knows you, you won't be buying a dog from me. But you don't like me anyway, so why would you??

I care deeply about the puppies and dogs we own and place. I also care about people, too. But when breeding, my first concern is the puppy. I really don't care whom I offend. As I said, I feel I am polite and willing to discuss things with folks any time they call about pups and I try to help them find different directions to go in their search. There are plenty of SUPER caring folks out there who just don't know what they're looking at in many cases.

I am not as experienced as many here. I've only been doing this 10 years and have had fewer litters than years I've been doing it. But I have an average of 35-40 dogs here at any given time and I love my clients. Between the phone calls from folks I don't know and emails I receive, things I witness in the field and online... THESE are what's made my criteria. NOT just some innate anti-hunter puppy placing mental illness.

You don't have to like me. I'm not looking for that. I've seen to many bad situations in puppy placement. And I have friends that have had situations they've had to rescue dogs from by no fault of their own, after they tried to do their homework. I've also had a friend rescue dog from her stud that was in a horrific environment.

I'm looking to avoid that. If you don't respect that, it's no skin off my back.

-K


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2007)

fred said:


> How 'bout suggesting some good reading to bring some of us uneducated hunters up to snuff on our dogs' health..


Search here on:
ACL
TPLO
EIC
CNM (http://www.labradorcnm.com)
CERF
OFA
FCP
OCD
OVERHEATING
hip dysplasia
retinal dysplasia
(while you're at it, may as well search on STILLBORN, MUMMY, UTERINE TORSION, UTERINE RUPTURE, CAESARIAN SECTION, ECLAMPSIA, NEUROLOGICAL STIMULATION -- since most people want to breed their dogs)

Read the thread at the top of the page on overheating.

Go to a wet lab on canine first aid or spend a few minutes with your vet reviewing common first aid procedures.

Get a canine first aid book, especially one for field dogs. 

Read Purina's study on ideal body condition. Review the chart and assess your dog.

Read about gastic torsion and feeding and management to prevent it.

Read about nutrition requirements and conditioning for performance.

There's a ton more, but this is a good place to get started... whatever of it you haven't already researched if you're the least bit interested.

-K


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## Illinois Bob (Feb 3, 2007)

lab-a-holic said:


> I am totally baffled - why are people getting so worked up because Kristie is concerned about the placement of the puppies she is responsible for bringing into this world? In my book - all breeders should have this concern - this is what I call a responsible breeder.


 I have no problem with Kristie trying to find good homes for her pups.That's what a breeder is supposed to do.The only thing that bothered me originally(and Kristie explained herself enough that it shouldn't bother anyone anymore) was having me,my dad,grandpa and friends all lumped up into one group with that idiot that threw his dead dog on the back of his truck.It's too bad that hunters were singled out on a forum for field dogs as people that as a whole don't care and make no effort to care for thier dogs.I think it might have been better said that Kristie requires references from all of her possible puppy buyers.There are idiots in all walks of life.Even Field Trials and Hunt Tests but I'm certanly not going to group them all together and say they are all that way.As Kristie said there are always exceptions.I hope that the guy with the dead dog on his truck is an exception to a group that also has high standards for thier dogs.It's too bad that that that moron is the perception of hunting here on this forum.If that is truely what people see in hunters than I can tell you,as a hunter,I am just as pissed off about it as you about it.It makes me look bad.Kristie explained herself well enough,let it go, and harass the moron(s) with the dead dog instead.


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

Kristie had guts enough to state her policy. Every stereotype has a measure of truth to it, otherwise it wouldn't stick.

I agree with the gentleman from Mandan regarding the training and care of a good portion of hunting dogs in the Dakotas. I've hunted South Dakota for over 10 years and lived here in ND for 1. I am not just ripping on ND/SD residents. These dogs come from all over the nation. 

Paul's comment regarding the first aid kit is dead on. I used mine three times last year on other guy's dogs. It blew the guy away that I carried one. This was a Professional Engineer, that dabbles in real estate, and is an accomplished bowhunter (elk). So it's not like it was some idiot. 

If you're offended by a breeder that won't sell to a hunter without references you are just looking to be pissed off about something or you are part of the hunter population that Kristie is looking to avoid.


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

I guess hunters and "sportdog" people better pick their battles. 

I'll support anyone who is careful about who they sell to
I'll oppose those who want to stop breeding altogether
I'll support groups that worry about pet owner legitimate rights
I'll oppose those who (under the guise of being ethical) want to remove pets from our society
I'll support those who humanely train and ethically use our retrievers in activities to preserve game for future generations... 
I'll oppose abuse and waste...

And the list goes on

Pick your battles. There are bigger ones than most fight on this site...


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

When I purchased my first Retriever the first contact phone call was to arrange an appointment to meet the breeders. They did not even show me a puppy for over an hour. They talked to me. Interviewed me if you will. Then let in an adult Chesapeake to see me interact with her. I came back two more times before I was accepted and put on their list to get a pup. I think if Kristie had typed "Strangers" instead of "Hunters" this would not have lasted 7 pages. That I feel was just a Freudian slip on her part. Telling us about her inner feelings about a segment of our community she maybe should have kept to herself. I have been the Stranger buying the pup before. By the way, part of my interview was if I would hunt the dog. In my breeders case they wanted all the pups to go to hunting homes. Running tests and trials was a definite plus, but if you did not hunt at all, no pup for you. They are your pups. You should investigate all buyers as best you can. It is just that the way it was typed a total stranger who is a non/anti-hunter gets preference from Kristie above a total stranger who is a hunter. It can be read that way, yet maybe it should read a stranger is a stranger no mater???
Ken Bora


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## duckster (May 20, 2007)

I understand completely how Kristie feels. I wouldn't go as far as to say they don't take as good of care of their animals. However, I have met a lot of hunters who say field trial dogs are crazy..spazz's..out of control..just plain nuts. One friend of ours said his buddy got a field trial dog that he spent $1,000. on and the thing was a piece of [email protected]*!!...I don't think it was the dog! I also don't think Kristie is wrong for not selling to "Just Hunters" why does a person who is just going to hunt need a dog of this caliber? I feel it is a waste to take a dog of this caliber and only have it hunt for 3-4 months a year and the rest of the time do nothing. Everyone knows that most field trial/hunt test dogs make great family dogs as well BUT...you have to work them everyday! They can't just sit there and do nothing..this goes for any lab, I guess. If I had a high rollin female that was a FC or MH and bred her to a FC, why would I want those dogs to go to Just hunting homes? YES..they are hunting dogs by nature but....what Kristie breeds aren't just hunting dogs they are dogs bred to COMPETE!!!! So, is she wrong for not selling these competition dogs to "just hunters????" NOPE!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

fred said:


> Hey Kristie,
> I'm a hunter and looking for a pup, got any litters coming up? Maybe you should keep some of your opinions to yourself. Did'nt your momma teach you, "if you can't say somethin nice, don't say it at all"? Alright, enough jokes. You have some people pretty fired up including me. As a breeder you have every right to sell pups to whoever you want. But as a breeder, you should not discriminate publicly (yes, I said DISCRIMINATE) against a certain sect of the dog owning population. I don't have a problem with your policies, just your actions and reactions to this thread.



oh man, cracking me up..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 


/Paul


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## mpage (Sep 22, 2004)

*dogs*

I could care less who wants to sell or not sell me a dog, i have to many already . I took my crazy trial dog hunting this last weekend. He had a little trouble with the really short birds. But the dog had a blast (remember it all about the dogs). I am in TX we were in south TX temp around 90 with a little rain. I train through the summer my dogs live out side and the dogs are conditioned for TX heat. I carry more stuff for the safety of my dog than I do for myself. When the dogs starts to heat up you have to know to put him up and cool him off (truck-kennel-shade what ever you need to do). This is not rocket science it called common sense.


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

brian breuer said:


> If you're offended by a breeder that won't sell to a hunter without references you are just looking to be pissed off about something or you are part of the hunter population that Kristie is looking to avoid.


Right on. I am a hunter first, and agree completely. Many (keep your shirts on, of course not all) of the "hunter only" types are morons when it comes to dog training and care. My favorite line from these guys is: "We don't do all that training, we put our dogs on birds. Lots and lots of birds." I've heard this a dozen times; three times alone at the Bass Pro Shop Expo our club had a booth at two weeks ago. Most of these guys seemed to go out of their way to share this.

While training one day a few years back I damn near got into a fistfight with a neighborhood 80-yr old over a bumper his hunting dog decided to play keep-away with while my 2-dogs waiter patiently. With a squint in his eye and his fist clinched, he got in my face and actually said: "You're probably one of them field trialers, aren't you?" (I had not yet run my one series at the time). I forced myself to walk away from the situation so's not to have to possibly recount the story of a black-eye to my Mrs.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

> If you're offended by a breeder that won't sell to a hunter without references you are just looking to be pissed off about something or you are part of the hunter population that Kristie is looking to avoid.



Whether or not she gleens who she sells to was not what offended people. It was the fact that "hunters" were lumped into a group of bad people.

The simple statement of "This is why I am very careful who I sell to." Would have said all that needed to be said. 

If you throw out insults people will be offended and it will affect many beyond the group you targeted.

A good lesson in business here. Sometimes you do what you do but you keep your mouth shut.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2007)

Ken Newcomb said:


> > If you're offended by a breeder that won't sell to a hunter without references you are just looking to be pissed off about something or you are part of the hunter population that Kristie is looking to avoid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Depends on what type of business you're in. I want my puppy buyers to know how I select homes and I would hope that others would be as selective. It's not some big secret. Nor does it have to be. The people who WANT to buy puppies from us appreciate the effort we put into screening homes and many of our buyers have purchased from us because they know how much effort we put into every aspect of breeding and raising a litter. THAT is good business. 

I've been out of school too long to know the latest business guru lingo and trends... Or models for business or whatever is state-of-the-art. But part of how I operate my business is using some of Tom Peter's ideas about selecting clients that share values and with whom you enjoy doing business. That model has worked well for me and made my business quite enjoyable.

-K


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## fred (Aug 12, 2007)

I will be the first to admit I need some help with knowing about my dogs' health. I have purchased a first aid book and a small first aid kit for field dogs. I would be very grateful if someone (possibly a vet) would post a list of first aid supplies that we should take in the field with us. I am fairly new to this dog stuff. I was planning to take my dog dove hunting next weekend, but after reading this thread, I have decided not to. It is still getting into the lower 90's here, and I think it will be best for me to leave her at home in the AC.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2007)

fred said:


> I will be the first to admit I need some help with knowing about my dogs' health. I have purchased a first aid book and a small first aid kit for field dogs. I would be very grateful if someone (possibly a vet) would post a list of first aid supplies that we should take in the field with us. I am fairly new to this dog stuff. I was planning to take my dog dove hunting next weekend, but after reading this thread, I have decided not to. It is still getting into the lower 90's here, and I think it will be best for me to leave her at home in the AC.


Search first aid on here. There have been several threads -- one recently -- about ideal stuff for a field first aid kit.

-K


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

fred said:


> I will be the first to admit I need some help with knowing about my dogs' health. I have purchased a first aid book and a small first aid kit for field dogs. I would be very grateful if someone (possibly a vet) would post a list of first aid supplies that we should take in the field with us. I am fairly new to this dog stuff. *I was planning to take my dog dove hunting next weekend, but after reading this thread, I have decided not to. It is still getting into the lower 90's here, and I think it will be best for me to leave her at home in the AC.*




Hooray!!! If even one person made a smart decision to err on the "safe side"
it was worth the previous 7 pages of people not "getting" what Kristie's mo is. 

Still sad someone had to lose a dog and another kill a dog to get the subject "out front".
Carol


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Those that have hi-jacked this thread for other purposes, should be ashamed of themselves. :!: 
If you need to hi-jack a thread, start your own thread and leave the original to it's posted intent.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2007)

lablover said:


> Those that have hi-jacked this thread for other purposes, should be ashamed of themselves. :!:
> If you need to hi-jack a thread, start your own thread and leave the original to it's posted intent.


Actually, I think it's in respect to the dead dogs that many of us have beaten the dead horse...

So quite the opposite -- hopefully those of us debating, arguing, flaming, whatever, have helped increase the awareness of the danger of heat (and other dangers to our dogs)

Just think that if a few people think twice before pushing their dogs in the heat, the argument was worth it.

Again, my condolences to the families of the lost dogs.

-K


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## fred (Aug 12, 2007)

Now that I have calmed down to reflect on the thread a little, let me tell every one why I am a little excited about this thread about uneducated hunters. There is enough hunter bashing as there is. The liberal media would love to get their hands on this thread so they could compose an article about uneducated hunters pushing their dogs to overheating and dying. Unfortunatley, there are some irresponsible hunters out there. Unfortunately, there are also some irresponsible breeders out there. These irresponsible people give us responsible ones a bad name. Kristie, I understand your business policies and understand why you feel the way you do. As a matter of fact, I respect you for it. You have some very high standards for the dog owners you sell your dogs to. That is to be commended. I have dealt with breeders who are after a quick buck. That does not seem to be the case with you. Hopefully, we can stick together as breeders and hunters so our kids can enjoy what we love to do - hunt and enjoy our dogs. I will shut up now.


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## fred (Aug 12, 2007)

Oh, by the way, your avatar shows you holding a gun, which makes you a hunter in the eyes of everyone else.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2007)

fred said:


> Oh, by the way, your avatar shows you holding a gun, which makes you a hunter in the eyes of everyone else.


I love to go hunting and I hope most everyone here does, too. I said "just a hunter"... That's different than what most of "us" here are.


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## kjrice (May 19, 2003)

> I got shot last year by a lifetime hunter of 40+ years. This thread is cracking me up....


So YOU were the guy sitting in front of PeeWee Herman!


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## brian breuer (Jul 12, 2003)

Fred wrote:


> The liberal media would love to get their hands on this thread so they could compose an article about uneducated hunters pushing their dogs to overheating and dying.


It was 2 or 3 years ago and several hundred dogs died on opening weekend of SD pheasant. So, the liberal media doesn't need this thread, they had actual reports from vets all over SD. I am sure if you do a little Googling you'll find several articles about it.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

kjrice said:


> > I got shot last year by a lifetime hunter of 40+ years. This thread is cracking me up....
> 
> 
> So YOU were the guy sitting in front of PeeWee Herman!


Different incident. Actually, /paul was judging the event you are referring to.

Always trying to help out in the worst way regards

Brad


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## Mistyriver (May 19, 2005)

Kristie Wilder said:


> fred said:
> 
> 
> > I will be the first to admit I need some help with knowing about my dogs' health. I have purchased a first aid book and a small first aid kit for field dogs. I would be very grateful if someone (possibly a vet) would post a list of first aid supplies that we should take in the field with us. I am fairly new to this dog stuff. I was planning to take my dog dove hunting next weekend, but after reading this thread, I have decided not to. It is still getting into the lower 90's here, and I think it will be best for me to leave her at home in the AC.
> ...




Gun Dog Magazine has a great article this month on Cannine First Aid and why every "Gun Dog Owner" should have one. It gives you details on Books and Video's you will find useful in the field and Kits to buy or make and to always have on hand.


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## kdbauman (Sep 10, 2004)

Come on? One dog lost during a hunting season is to many, we all agree with that. I can tell you not to waste your time Fred googling for the article that proclaims "Hundreds of dogs" lost during the pheasant opener three years ago, because there aren't any factual articles that will tell you that. There were many dogs lost and many, many more treated. It was a terrible weekend, again one dog is to many.

A couple years ago, an ice fisherman lost his lab as it fell through the ice on the Missouri river. I would like to generalize that from that time on, all fisherman should also be stereotyped as uneducated barbarians much the same as us hunters. 

You are right about one thing, the liberal media doesn't need to write these half truth horror stories, a couple of our own will do it for them.

Show us the article that substantiates your statement and you have my apologies. One more time, one dog lost is a tragedy, but lets stay with the facts if we are going to declare hunters as a group as anything but hunters.


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## Zack (May 17, 2005)

Kristie Wilder said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> > Make that 2. I was on a public field sat. when a fella sent his dog for a bird, about TEN MINUTES LATER he started looking for his dog that hadn't come back yet. He was piled up out in the uncut section of corn. It bothered me that he was too busy talking to notice his dog didn't come back, but when he picked him up, through him in the back of his truck and went back hunting, :evil: :evil:
> ...


That is the most pompous, ignorant BS I have ever seen on this message board.


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## fred (Aug 12, 2007)

Mistyriver wrote:




Gun Dog Magazine has a great article this month on Cannine First Aid and why every "Gun Dog Owner" should have one. It gives you details on Books and Video's you will find useful in the field and Kits to buy or make and to always have on hand.




That is some great advice.
Thanks Mistyriver


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