# Sloppy Mouth/Chewing Birds



## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

My BLM is now almost 8 months old and we have been following Hillmanns puppy program as well as traffic cop. No Force Fetch yet. 

His sit is getting very good and steady and his leash handling is getting better and better. He loves training and loves bumpers. He goes nuts at the site of one. He has a TREMENDOUS desire to chase, often hitting bumpers on the run in a rolling cloud of dust and grass. But, his mouth habits are not good. He sometimes rolls, chews, chomps on the bumpers on the way back, likes to make a "victory lap" from time to time, and he doesn't always like to give them over, sometimes ducking at the last second, reluctant to give it up, chomping and chewing instead.

His first introduction to a live pigeon showed tremendous prey drive, he hit it quick and fearlessly and then proceeded to strip it of its feathers and try to eat it. Since then I haven't had him back on birds until yesterday. We were working on getting comfortable with shotgun fire (which he clearly loved!) so I shot a passing dove just to see what he would do. He was on it quickly and before he got back to me he had it pretty well chewed up. The closer he got to me the more he chomped, ducking me at the last minute just like he sometimes does with the bumpers.

Aside from traditional Force Fetch, is there anything else that I should be doing/not doing to help straighten out these issues?


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

It's time for FF. stop using birds until you have completed FF.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

freezeland said:


> It's time for FF. stop using birds until you have completed FF.


Understood. For those that never "Force Fetch", how are these mouth habits addressed? I'm curious because I don't think Hillmann does FF in the "traditional manner" anymore. And I know that many other dogs are trained, especially in Europe, without Force Fetch as it is taught here.

Would it be a bad idea to work on "hold" with a fresh, small bird like a dove or pigeon? Don't let him retrieve it, just encourage him to hold it in his mouth under my supervision? (with no negative pressure of course)


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

Obviously FF will solve a lot of your issues but CC here would solve a lot by the sounds of things.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

What ever you do, don't use dove. Feathers fall off too easy and cause issues.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

*more*

How is his OB to Sit and look? In puppy training, these two must be solid. Still and not moving. 

Keith

I would sit the dog out there for more than 3 min.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

truthseeker said:


> How is his OB to Sit and look? In puppy training, these two must be solid. Still and not moving.
> 
> Keith
> 
> I would sit the dog out there for more than 3 min.


His sit during yard work (leash attached) is very good. He will sit very still and stare at the bumper for several minutes until released and then hit the bumper with reckless abandon. 

I haven't decided 100% which route I want to take yet regarding Force Fetch which is why I'm inquiring about this issue now. I want to continue his training but don't want to ingrain poor mouth habits any more than I already have.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"Would it be a bad idea to work on "hold" with a fresh, small bird like a dove or pigeon? Don't let him retrieve it, just encourage him to hold it in his mouth under my supervision? (with no negative pressure of course)".''_

_"I shot a passing dove just to see what he would do. He was on it quickly and before he got back to me he had it pretty well chewed up. The closer he got to me the more he chomped, ducking me at the last minute just like he sometimes does with the bumpers."_

Question asked and answered.

_But, his mouth habits are not good. He sometimes rolls, chews, chomps on the bumpers on the way back, likes to make a "victory lap" from time to time, and he doesn't always like to give them over, sometimes ducking at the last second, reluctant to give it up, chomping and chewing instead."_

Why?

Hold comes before Force Fetch. Good mouth habits come before working with birds. Good bird handling comes before that first hunting season. And probably what's driving this "need" is that hunting season has arrived. 

_"Aside from traditional Force Fetch, is there anything else that I should be doing/not doing to help straighten out these issues?"_

Yes, there is. Do what the pups needs.....not what you want.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

KwickLabs said:


> _"Would it be a bad idea to work on "hold" with a fresh, small bird like a dove or pigeon? Don't let him retrieve it, just encourage him to hold it in his mouth under my supervision? (with no negative pressure of course)".''_
> 
> _"I shot a passing dove just to see what he would do. He was on it quickly and before he got back to me he had it pretty well chewed up. The closer he got to me the more he chomped, ducking me at the last minute just like he sometimes does with the bumpers."_
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply Jim. What the pup needs is what I'm trying to figure out. 

I feel like it's time to start trying to clean up his mouth habits and at some point I'd imagine he needs to start working with birds, so I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate them into his training without creating any bad habits. If it's still too soon to work with birds then I won't do it, regardless of approaching hunting season.

We will continue to work on "hold" in a positive manner for now until I decide which way to go with Force Fetch. Is it okay to work on hold with a dead bird? Or should I just stick to bumpers and such?


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## Paul Brown (Sep 1, 2011)

I have refrained from commenting on many of your posts regarding your training questions, but now I'll take a stab at it. If you're ready for some tough love. Ready? Here it comes:
YOU'RE NOT FOLLOWING HILLMANN!
I've spent a good deal of time reading your previous posts regarding training this pup and "I'm following Hillmann" questions this morning and it is apparent that you've glossed over too much. Either that or you didn't fully comprehend what was being shown. As an example, in one of your other posts, you mentioned that Hillmann doesn't dwell on heel very much, when in fact the three pillars of the puppy DVD is chase something, walk on a lead, and sit. He transitions from just walking on a lead to heeling. And as in all skills he points out that you teach, then reinforce, and then practice. And then practice some more. No, he doesn't show hours of practicing, he leaves that up to us to do as much practicing as our dogs need to perfect the skill.
Additionally, you posted that you were finishing up with the puppy DVD, yet you haven't worked on hold at all it doesn't sound like. If you have, it isn't nearly enough. So, you and your dog are not ready to move on to "The Fetch Command".
Furthermore, and I can tell you from recent experience, that this victory lap episode is a result of not spending enough time working on walking on a lead. Jim of KwikLabs made an excellent post regarding this several weeks ago. It will solve a lot of these 'self employed' issues such as not returning with the bird-I can vouch for that. 
As to the dog exhibiting a known behavior, chomping the dove, that's on you. The dog had done that to a point where you stopped using birds in training until yesterday. The outcome was predictable. 
Jim, Glen, and several others familiar with Hillmann have offered good advice and constructive comments, they have indeed been the peanuts in the box of Crackerjack. I, on the other hand, am being the stale piece of popcorn; but, I am convinced you needed to hear this. 
I will sum up with this, I believe the phrase "following Hillmann" is a misnomer. It should really be stated as, "I am adopting Hillmann." The impetice being on adopting. I firmly believe that the answers are in your DVD. Good luck.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

From what I read and the dog is 8 months old. I would start formal training. Start back with OB and move forward. Building a good foundation is vary important. I would not give the dog any more live birds, in the foreseeable future. Try in find, A GROUP TO TRAIN WITH. 

Keith


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

_"Is it okay to work on hold with a dead bird?"_ No.....for now. 

_"Or should I just stick to bumpers and such?"_ Not sure what "and such" means, but until
bumpers are handled properly, birds will most likely prove to be a "Bridge Too Far".

Moving at what may seem to be a slow pace is quite often faster in the long run.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Paul Brown said:


> I have refrained from commenting on many of your posts regarding your training questions, but now I'll take a stab at it. If you're ready for some tough love. Ready? Here it comes:
> YOU'RE NOT FOLLOWING HILLMANN!
> I've spent a good deal of time reading your previous posts regarding training this pup and "I'm following Hillmann" questions this morning and it is apparent that you've glossed over too much. Either that or you didn't fully comprehend what was being shown. As an example, in one of your other posts, you mentioned that Hillmann doesn't dwell on heel very much, when in fact the three pillars of the puppy DVD is chase something, walk on a lead, and sit. He transitions from just walking on a lead to heeling. And as in all skills he points out that you teach, then reinforce, and then practice. And then practice some more. No, he doesn't show hours of practicing, he leaves that up to us to do as much practicing as our dogs need to perfect the skill.
> Additionally, you posted that you were finishing up with the puppy DVD, yet you haven't worked on hold at all it doesn't sound like. If you have, it isn't nearly enough. So, you and your dog are not ready to move on to "The Fetch Command".
> ...


This is the problem with most DVD's. There's more question than answers. The best way if you are serious about training, is to get with your local retriever club. Along with the DVD.

Keith


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

KwickLabs said:


> _"Is it okay to work on hold with a dead bird?"_ No.....for now.
> 
> _"Or should I just stick to bumpers and such?"_ Not sure what "and such" means, but until
> bumpers are handled properly, birds will most likely prove to be a "Bridge Too Far".
> ...


"and such" simply meant, bumpers, tennis ball, paint roller, squeaky toy, whatever we are working with. Generally bumpers though, aside from working on hold in the house with some of his softer toys at times.

I'll just keep working on hold with non-feathered items for now along with more leash work, thanks.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

Paul Brown said:


> I have refrained from commenting on many of your posts regarding your training questions, but now I'll take a stab at it. If you're ready for some tough love. Ready? Here it comes:
> YOU'RE NOT FOLLOWING HILLMANN!
> I've spent a good deal of time reading your previous posts regarding training this pup and "I'm following Hillmann" questions this morning and it is apparent that you've glossed over too much. Either that or you didn't fully comprehend what was being shown. As an example, in one of your other posts, you mentioned that Hillmann doesn't dwell on heel very much, when in fact the three pillars of the puppy DVD is chase something, walk on a lead, and sit. He transitions from just walking on a lead to heeling. And as in all skills he points out that you teach, then reinforce, and then practice. And then practice some more. No, he doesn't show hours of practicing, he leaves that up to us to do as much practicing as our dogs need to perfect the skill.
> Additionally, you posted that you were finishing up with the puppy DVD, yet you haven't worked on hold at all it doesn't sound like. If you have, it isn't nearly enough. So, you and your dog are not ready to move on to "The Fetch Command".
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Contrary to what you believe, we have followed the program very closely and my pup is doing very well. 

I try hard to keep our lessons balanced. We spend a tremendous amount of time walking on lead, which is what Hillmann calls it. My comment several weeks ago about the program not addressing "heel" was true, he almost never mentions "heel" in the puppy DVD, just "walking on lead", which could well amount to dragging or being dragged. I've watched hundreds of people who walk their dogs every day being dragged down the sidewalk. My point was that "walking on a lead" doesn't always morph into good leash manners and Hillmann doesn't spend much time discussing how to do so.

We have also worked on "hold" quite a bit. That is another thing that is mentioned in the puppy DVD but not given much weight in comparison to "chase something", "sit" and "walk on lead". This is something we will continue to work on more regularly as well to hopefully help with some of these mouthing issues.

I understand that these DVD training programs are not perfect and can't possibly cover every aspect of training, that is why I come here with questions as well.


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

MNHunter said:


> Understood. For those that never "Force Fetch", how are these mouth habits addressed? I'm curious because I don't think Hillmann does FF in the "traditional manner" anymore. And I know that many other dogs are trained, especially in Europe, without Force Fetch as it is taught here.
> 
> Would it be a bad idea to work on "hold" with a fresh, small bird like a dove or pigeon? Don't let him retrieve it, just encourage him to hold it in his mouth under my supervision? (with no negative pressure of course)


They cull it out of their breeding programs. That's how they deal with it.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

jwdavis said:


> They cull it out of their breeding programs. That's how they deal with it.


So, it's believed that a hard mouth can be genetic? Forgive my ignorance on the matter, I just assumed that it was simply a personality trait or product of training more than anything.


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

It can be both. Hardmouth dogs tend to throw hardmouth pups. Some people inadvertently cause dogs that may be borderline to become hardmouthed. Some dogs are such butter mouths that you couldn't make them kill a bird if you tried. All depends and its tough to know what the cause is unless you have knowledge about the dog and how it was trained.


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

jwdavis said:


> They cull it out of their breeding programs. That's how they deal with it.


MN:

Just blow this off. This issue has been a debate within the community for ever, Read what's in front of you and go on from there.

Keith


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

What do you do with a young dog that consistently kills traps Keith? What happens to a dog that kills a couple of traps in a Springer trial?


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

jwdavis said:


> What do you do with a young dog that consistently kills traps Keith? What happens to a dog that kills a couple of traps in a Springer trial?


The trainer has made misstates in his or her's training program. I can respectfully say, I have had more them one that said. I don't know what to do, my dog is killing birds. One more thing, the more drive, they have the more you will have to work on this issue and the younger the better. Saying this there is always exceptions to the rule. Dog training is not a science, it an art. 

With the more high end dogs. The more you have to work on capping their drive.

Keith


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## TDMITCH (Mar 24, 2006)

Teach hold first with bumper no birds ,sqeaky toys or other such.Bad mouth habits met with "no hold" tap under chin, if you have to grab muzzle and don't let him mouth bumper, when he settles "good hold' When hold gets better teach "fetch'. Say fetch and place bumper in mouth enforce hold. From there to ear pinch should be smooth sailing


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## truthseeker (Feb 2, 2012)

Again, I would go back to OB and make sure that it is solid and focused. 

Keith


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

TDMITCH said:


> Teach hold first with bumper no birds ,sqeaky toys or other such.Bad mouth habits met with "no hold" tap under chin, if you have to grab muzzle and don't let him mouth bumper, when he settles "good hold' When hold gets better teach "fetch'. Say fetch and place bumper in mouth enforce hold. From there to ear pinch should be smooth sailing


Thank you sir, good to hear from you. 

I have not paid enough attention to Hold up until now so we will focus more on it moving forward. Hopefully that will help him with his handling of birds (without chewing) down the line.


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## TDMITCH (Mar 24, 2006)

one more thing I don't like tennis balls I feel they promote rolling and mouthing. While I'm here I separate work and play areas Work (hold and force fetch I do in the garage) they soon learn when they are going to work or are free to play


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

truthseeker said:


> The trainer has made misstates in his or her's training program. I can respectfully say, I have had more them one that said. I don't know what to do, my dog is killing birds. One more thing, the more drive, they have the more you will have to work on this issue and the younger the better. Saying this there is always exceptions to the rule. Dog training is not a science, it an art.
> 
> With the more high end dogs. The more you have to work on capping their drive.
> 
> Keith


I agree with what you said here. But do you not agree that traits are passed from parent to offspring? Should we just breed for ultra high drive and then train around any issues? What's the point of even having field trials if we aren't trying to identify superior specimens for future breedings? Why do we even care about pedigree then? 
For the OP, you have an obedience issue. It all needs to be tightened up, particularly the here command. Then work on hold and force fetch. May be time to look for a good pro or experienced am for help.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

jwdavis said:


> I agree with what you said here. But do you not agree that traits are passed from parent to offspring? Should we just breed for ultra high drive and then train around any issues? What's the point of even having field trials if we aren't trying to identify superior specimens for future breedings? Why do we even care about pedigree then?
> For the OP, you have an obedience issue. It all needs to be tightened up, particularly the here command. Then work on hold and force fetch. May be time to look for a good pro or experienced am for help.


Thanks for the advice. 

As per the Hillmann Puppy program, "here" isn't stressed until other aspects are solid. (He doesn't really address it much at all in the puppy DVD) We have worked on it some and Loki does it quite well when called in from a sit while working on yard OB. I haven't stressed "here" yet when free ranging since it hasn't been formally ingrained and I don't want to give the command unless I can enforce it or am sure he will obey. That should come along as we progress into our next phase/program (which will be TRT)


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## jwdavis (Nov 26, 2004)

After you CC to here in TRT it should help, should be mostly cleaned up after FF. Really the best thing you can do is find some help. I wish I knew someone up there to refer you to. If this is your first dog, it could turn out to be an all star or a nightmare depending on how you go forward. A desire to study on your own is important, but getting some experienced help can make the learning curve a lot less steep.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MNHunter said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> As per the Hillmann Puppy program, "here" isn't stressed until other aspects are solid. (He doesn't really address it much at all in the puppy DVD) We have worked on it some and Loki does it quite well when called in from a sit while working on yard OB. I haven't stressed "here" yet when free ranging since it hasn't been formally ingrained and I don't want to give the command unless I can enforce it or am sure he will obey. That should come along as we progress into our next phase/program (which will be TRT)


Mr Potato-Head who is doing a bad job....

I call you that since we don't know your name.

Go back to square one and quit jumping all over the place.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Mr Potato-Head who is doing a bad job....
> 
> I call you that since we don't know your name.
> 
> Go back to square one and quit jumping all over the place.


Classy-

My Name is John. 

What do you expect to see from your dogs at 7-8 months of age?


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

jwdavis said:


> After you CC to here in TRT it should help, should be mostly cleaned up after FF. Really the best thing you can do is find some help. I wish I knew someone up there to refer you to. If this is your first dog, it could turn out to be an all star or a nightmare depending on how you go forward. A desire to study on your own is important, but getting some experienced help can make the learning curve a lot less steep.


He's a great pup and I have zero doubt that he will be a fantastic hunting dog and family companion which is what I brought him into our family for. Whether we go beyond that with HT's or FT's is yet to be decided. If I put in the work and do my part, I believe he's got what it takes.

He definitely will not be a nightmare, he's a gentleman around the house already and has impressed those who have gotten to meet him. He shows tons of heart, drive and gameness. He loves to train every day and has picked up everything we've worked on very quickly. He's ultra birdy and loves the water. It's been a blast so far and I look forward to his progress every day!


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## Bobber40 (Jun 10, 2013)

Do you live in Minnesota?


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

Bobber40 said:


> Do you live in Minnesota?


Yes, West Central part of the state


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## Bobber40 (Jun 10, 2013)

Have you checked into any training groups in the area?


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## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

MNHunter said:


> ... so I shot a passing dove just to see what he would do. ...


Anytime I've ever done or talked to someone who did anything with a dog "just to see what he would do" ended up very poorly. That's not training, that's testing and testing an 8 month old dog is virtually always a bad idea. He had no idea what you expected him to do so the odds of it coming out right are astronomically low. 

Get the cart behind the horse: get him properly conditioned on how to deliver a bird to hand.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

ks_hunting said:


> Anytime I've ever done or talked to someone who did anything with a dog "just to see what he would do" ended up very poorly. That's not training, that's testing and testing an 8 month old dog is virtually always a bad idea. He had no idea what you expected him to do so the odds of it coming out right are astronomically low.
> 
> Get the cart behind the horse: get him properly conditioned on how to deliver a bird to hand.


Thanks for the criticism and for offering zero advice regarding my original question. Seems to be a theme around here sometimes. Gotta take the good with the bad I suppose.

In reference to your post, I'd say "it" came out very well IMO. He was excited by the sound of the shotgun, looked right where it was aimed and saw his first wild bird fall from the sky. He headed right for it and, after a difficult search in thick, tall grass, came out with the bird in his mouth. The only issue was that, in his excitement he gave it a pretty good working over and didn't deliver it right to hand as I'd have liked. But, overall I'd say it was a pretty positive experience for his first time seeing a wild bird shot from the sky. Now, every time he see a gun he's wild with excitement. I hardly think I've ruined him as some here would like to imply.

Maybe all expertly trained dogs first introductions to a live kill of a wild bird unfold as if in a training video and end in a perfectly heeled and gentle delivery to hand. I doubt it, but maybe. I know of many good hunting dogs who took many experiences to do as well as my pup did on his first try and I'm proud of him. I think he shows great promise and I have no doubt that he'll be a fantastic dog. I made the original post asking for advice about improving mouth habits without Force Fetch, that's all. But somehow it always seems to turn into a bash session.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MNHunter said:


> Thanks for the criticism and for offering zero advice regarding my original question. Seems to be a theme around here sometimes. Gotta take the good with the bad I suppose.
> 
> In reference to your post, I'd say "it" came out very well IMO. He was excited by the sound of the shotgun, looked right where it was aimed and saw his first wild bird fall from the sky. He headed right for it and, after a difficult search in thick, tall grass, came out with the bird in his mouth. The only issue was that, in his excitement he gave it a pretty good working over and didn't deliver it right to hand as I'd have liked. But, overall I'd say it was a pretty positive experience for his first time seeing a wild bird shot from the sky. Now, every time he see a gun he's wild with excitement. I hardly think I've ruined him as some here would like to imply.
> 
> Maybe all expertly trained dogs first introductions to a live kill of a wild bird unfold as if in a training video and end in a perfectly heeled and gentle delivery to hand. I doubt it, but maybe. I know of many good hunting dogs who took many experiences to do as well as my pup did on his first try and I'm proud of him. I think he shows great promise and I have no doubt that he'll be a fantastic dog. I made the original post asking for advice about improving mouth habits without Force Fetch, that's all. But somehow it always seems to turn into a bash session.


John,
You are not fooling anybody, but yourself.
I hope you understand this. 
I remember the saying..."Fool me once........"


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> John,
> You are not fooling anybody, but yourself.
> I hope you understand this.
> I remember the saying..."Fool me once........"


Why do you always chime in on my threads? You offer absolutely nothing of value, just antagonistic garbage that serves no purpose.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MNHunter said:


> Why do you always chime in on my threads? You offer absolutely nothing of value, just antagonistic garbage that serves no purpose.


And that is my purpose so that you don't waste bandwidth on this forum. 
Now...train your damn dog and quit with the *scenarios.

Me*


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> And that is my purpose so that you don't waste bandwidth on this forum.
> Now...train your damn dog and quit with the *scenarios.
> 
> Me*


So, You'd prefer I don't come here, to the Retriever Training Forum, and ask training questions? Maybe I should just be a sarcastic jerk to everybody instead? How have you not been banned from this site?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

MNHunter said:


> So, You'd prefer I don't come here, to the Retriever Training Forum, and ask training questions? Maybe I should just be a sarcastic jerk to everybody instead? How have you not been banned from this site?


Because I know the owner and the owner knows me. You on the other hand.....


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

BJGatley said:


> Because I know the owner and the owner knows me. You on the other hand.....


That explains it. I knew there had to be a logical reason. 

Now, if you'd be so kind, please refrain from sucking up bandwidth in anymore of my threads with your sarcastic posts, they reek of insecurity and make me uncomfortable.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Oh for Pete sake...Grow a pair...Your days might be number OK?


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## Clintonb (May 18, 2013)

I must admit I do feel sorry for MNHunter who came to this thread for some practical training advice he needs but instead got completely railroaded with riddles from some people who have added NO value to the OP original question. Please stick in there MNHunter and I hope you find some gold nuggets amongst the piles of garbage regardless if they know the owner and the owners knows them.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Clintonb said:


> I must admit I do feel sorry for MNHunter who came to this thread for some practical training advice he needs but instead got completely railroaded with riddles from some people who have added NO value to the OP original question. Please stick in there MNHunter and I hope you find some gold nuggets amongst the piles of garbage regardless if they know the owner and the owners knows them.


Come on....You need to grow a pair as well. 

And the owners know him...
Maybe you are a troll in sheep's clothing and have nothing better to do to do John behind close doors. 
Crazy as it sounds....but who knows.


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## Clintonb (May 18, 2013)

BJGatley said:


> Come on....You need to grow a pair as well.
> 
> And the owners know him...
> Maybe you are a troll in sheep's clothing and have nothing better to do to do John behind close doors.
> Crazy as it sounds....but who knows.


I'm still really confused by your comments? but I will not be responding any further to them.

All I was trying to do was get some real training answers for John, anyway.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Clintonb said:


> I'm still really confused by your comments? but I will not be responding any further to them.
> 
> All I was trying to do was get some real training answers for John, anyway.


BS.... I call a spade a spade. 
Still confused?


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

ks_hunting said:


> Anytime I've ever done or talked to someone who did anything with a dog "just to see what he would do" ended up very poorly. That's not training, that's testing and testing an 8 month old dog is virtually always a bad idea. He had no idea what you expected him to do so the odds of it coming out right are astronomically low.
> 
> Get the cart behind the horse: get him properly conditioned on how to deliver a bird to hand.


MNHunter - KS_Hunting reply was not a sarcastic post. It was very honest and direct to the point. No it didn't include the "how to" if that is what you were after, but many others have given you the advice to get on the right footing.

You know your dog is a high prey drive, you know your dog loves birds, so now you need to learn how to control and channel those traits. What you are doing now is only encouraging bad habits that will have to be unlearned. The more they become engrained the harder time you are going to have rehabilitating your fine bred dog. 

BJGately post that you took exception to was also not sarcastic. He was telling you the same thing I just did in a round about way.

Good luck with your dog.


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## PDO (Jul 25, 2014)

MNHunter said:


> Thanks for the criticism and for offering zero advice regarding my original question. Seems to be a theme around here sometimes. Gotta take the good with the bad I suppose.
> 
> In reference to your post, I'd say "it" came out very well IMO. He was excited by the sound of the shotgun, looked right where it was aimed and saw his first wild bird fall from the sky. He headed right for it and, after a difficult search in thick, tall grass, came out with the bird in his mouth. The only issue was that, in his excitement he gave it a pretty good working over and didn't deliver it right to hand as I'd have liked. But, overall I'd say it was a pretty positive experience for his first time seeing a wild bird shot from the sky. Now, every time he see a gun he's wild with excitement. I hardly think I've ruined him as some here would like to imply.
> 
> Maybe all expertly trained dogs first introductions to a live kill of a wild bird unfold as if in a training video and end in a perfectly heeled and gentle delivery to hand. I doubt it, but maybe. I know of many good hunting dogs who took many experiences to do as well as my pup did on his first try and I'm proud of him. I think he shows great promise and I have no doubt that he'll be a fantastic dog. I made the original post asking for advice about improving mouth habits without Force Fetch, that's all. But somehow it always seems to turn into a bash session.


That was actually some of the best advice in the thread...

As with most other of your other threads (and why they are often met with resistance), you are cherry picking what YOU want to hear and then defending it. When you (or me, or any other newbie) ask a question on RTF, you need to be prepared to take some gut shots. It is hard to swallow, but getting over your ego makes you a MUCH better trainer (i.e. look at the noisy dog thread! The OP trainer has taken a freaking public beating, but he listens and the dog looks to be making fantastic progress).

What would be best for the dog was not retrieving during teething, or a live shot dove in thick cover. Until hold and FF are complete, your specific dog should not handle birds. Every time he gets a bird, it will be a HABIT harder to break. At multiple points along the line you have already reinforced mouthy habits. No, it hasn't ruined your dog but it will be something you may have to work on for the rest of the dogs life.

If all you need is a duck dog, it is pretty hard to mess up and you are correct. The pup sounds birdy. Send him off to be FF by a pro and you will be done. But if your goals are higher and you want to continue training the dog, you are proceeding down the wrong path and you should find some hands on help. That is all people are trying to say. Start formal basics, lay off the birds, and find a group, a pro, or a few knowledgable training friends.

PO


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## ks_hunting (Dec 10, 2013)

MNHunter said:


> Thanks for the criticism and for offering zero advice regarding my original question.


My advice was: 



ks_hunting said:


> get him properly conditioned on how to deliver a bird to hand


Let me clarify what that means. If you're looking for step by step advice on how to get him to accomplish such a task without the use of Force Fetch then the best place would be to start with some of the British trainers who don't use this technique. Robert Milner (former owner of Wildrose and current owner of Duckhill Kennels) has several books and videos as does Mike Stewart. If it would help, perhaps you could go to the Duckhill forum. 

Best of luck with your training endeavors.


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## behawley (Jun 4, 2015)

You need to FF immediately!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

BJGatley said:


> And that is my purpose so that you don't waste bandwidth on this forum.
> Now...train your damn dog and quit with the *scenarios.
> 
> Me*


Pot meet kettle regards


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

ks_hunting said:


> My advice was:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice, I'll check out the links you provided. 

It may be a bit lost in all the 'clutter' here but what I was trying to ask was if there was anything aside from force fetch that I could work on each day to help improve my pups mouth habits. I haven't decided yet whether I am going to follow the Hillmann "Fetch Command" style or Lardy's TRT Force Fetch so I wanted to keep trying to improve his mouth while I get a plan together for the next phase of Fetch training.

What I gathered here is that continuing to focus more on hold (with a bumper) will help and that I shouldn't attempt to work on hold with a dead bird which is what I'll do. I'll also begin collar conditioning to "Here" once I have a clear picture of how to do it correctly. Hillmann's direction to avoid the Here command until sit is extremely steady had me a bit gun shy to work to hard on it up until now.

Thanks again for the input!


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## Clintonb (May 18, 2013)

In regards to a better hold ie less sloppy mouth prior to FF and even sometimes after FF what I have found myself to have worked very well is every evening while I am watching TV etc is just sit the pup in front of me on lead, put a bumper in the dogs mouth, tell him/her to HOLD and then just gentle remind the pup if it gets sloppy with a gentle tap under the chin. 

Do this for 5mins every night until the pups mouth is still and you are not getting the mouthing. 

Then progress to walking on lead around inside your house with the bumper in the dogs mouth again only 5mins every night reminding the pup for any sloppy mouth, once this is going well progress to outside heeling with the bumper in the mouth and reminding the pup for any sloppy mouth again. 

I then repeat the whole process with a dead pigeon.


I have found this has significantly improved the sloppy mouth and bird handling issues and you will see a far better carriage of the bumper/bird in the field once you are ready for field work.

My 2 cents.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

Clintonb said:


> In regards to a better hold ie less sloppy mouth prior to FF and even sometimes after FF what I have found myself to have worked very well is every evening while I am watching TV etc is just sit the pup in front of me on lead, put a bumper in the dogs mouth, tell him/her to HOLD and then just gentle remind the pup if it gets sloppy with a gentle tap under the chin.
> 
> Do this for 5mins every night until the pups mouth is still and you are not getting the mouthing.
> 
> ...


I did this pretty much exactly, but I also added in positive reinforcement(praise and reward marking) when she held like I wanted. Early on, it was just a second, then gradually got longer. Tap under the chin for dropping and pressure on nose and chin with a 'hold' for mouthing/rolling. No pressure or force at all other than the light taps, and repeating 'hold'. My pup's hold was solid enough, she would have been ready for force fetch at 4 months old if she had adult teeth.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

Never Mind


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## colinSEA (Sep 14, 2013)

Hmm... I read the first few pages of post so maybe this was addressed later on... but... 

I'm training my first hunt lab and have had some of the same questions you have posted about. I followed Hillman minus the early "puppy" Collar Conditioning. We transitioned into FF about 4 weeks ago and will likely start in on CC this week. I watched and read all the DVD's that get listed on this site, read a ton of books and the best advice that I decided to follow was go to a few hunt tests, talk to as many pro's I could, and get the one who is most willing to "train me to train my pup". With that said I joined the local HRC and have met some really great people. I drive 200 miles round trip (4 hrs ) once a week to visit my pro and every time I'm driving home I am so happy that I did. With that said I am married with no children other than the 3 dogs, a 7.5 month old BLM and 2 porch dogs. Feel free to take away whatever you want from my comments I hope that in some way they are helpful to you and your pup.

I was always under the impression that FF was to get the dog to fetch on command and correct all the mouth habits that develop. What I realize now after being corrected by a few helpful individuals is that FF really isn't about the get this thing in your mouth as much as its a precursor to learning how to properly deal with pressure. Seems like if you are going into TRT and TRM your going to need to put pressure on your dog and it was explained to me that there will be times that your dog does not want to go, go in the water, get out of the water, drive thru that cover, hit that point but stay in the water............ I was told that FF is the way that they learn that, no, we have to do this the right way, here is what I want, here is what happens if we don't do it right, here is how to get that pressure to stop/start. 

I guess since it sounds like you are having trouble with mouth issues why not start on the road to FF with getting a solid hold and then going into a regular FF program with the help of a pro or an experienced amateur? Working with a one person (an expert) instead of a bunch of opinions really helped me have more confidence in myself and the way that I train, because I bought into his program and I let that supersede the DVD's and books and used the DVD's and books to assist in what we are working on. Best wishes for you and your pup.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Wow what a sad direction this thread took....BJ Gatley (whoever you are since I can't even find you on a people search on Entry Express so.....) bad on you!

MNHunter just wanted to know how to get his dog to stop chewing on a bird. Maybe nobody knows the answer, so they send you off to a pro? 

You don't need a pro to help you train your own dog, so I made the following video for people who have dogs that have bad mouth habits.

https://youtu.be/8XXGULz65Wk

HOLD is the first command to learn when teaching the 'conditioned retrieve'. OUT is the second. 

This video is the culmination of about a month's worth of work teaching in baby steps the HOLD command beginning with two fingers of a gloved hand. Anyone can do this in their yard or even living room. 

It begins with very brief periods of holding, as in this video. It can be fun to teach too with a little patience!

https://youtu.be/p47umi_aPtk


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Good video.


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## John Gush (Jun 19, 2015)

Nice videos, Thanks Tammy!


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

TBell said:


> Wow what a sad direction this thread took....BJ Gatley (whoever you are since I can't even find you on a people search on Entry Express so.....) bad on you!
> 
> MNHunter just wanted to know how to get his dog to stop chewing on a bird. Maybe nobody knows the answer, so they send you off to a pro?
> 
> ...


Excellent! Thanks for being constructive and helpful!!


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Might read a few articles in the dobbs training library. How do you get a dog from chewing on birds? You teach them what is expected by teaching them a proper hold, and a proper retrieve first with a dumb-bell then various sized bumpers, then finally birds. You do it first on a table, where you can control the dogs head and mouth, then on a lead, from your hand then the ground, then off lead. This called FF fetch but a better name is conditioned-trained retrieve. https://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rjpart1.html


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

Thanks for the thoughtful replies that have been offered up, I really appreciate them.

The reason that this thread got pushed back to the top is that I posted a detailed follow-up about the path of training I chose, the progress that we've made and a question about a new challenge that has presented itself. Then, after thinking about it, I decided to delete the entire post because I knew that certain members would likely chime in with more belittling and insults and it would just piss me off. It's less frustrating to just use the search bar for any questions I have and continue to work and enjoy our training every day. 

I will say that, now at 9 mos. old, Loki is progressing beautifully. He is extremely steady on and off lead in the yard, his OB and handling is wonderful and his drive and desire to train is off the charts. I owe a huge thank you to Bill and Mary Hillmann for this, their programs have worked beautifully.

Shortly after writing the original post in this thread I purchased Lardy's TRT and TRM and began FF. It has very gone well and we continue to work on it daily. Mouth habits have improved exponentially. I'm very excited to get into formal collar conditioning even though, I must admit, I'm more intimidated by the prospect of CC than I was FF. Enjoying the progress every day and excited to move on to more challenging training endeavors, I know Loki will enjoy the new challenges as well.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

Excellent video, thanks Tammy! It's clear to see that you're a wonderful dog person, Gunner is a lucky pup!


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Lardy's ecollar DVD is gold.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

captainjack said:


> Lardy's ecollar DVD is gold.


I don't disagree.......,. but....

How is that Relevant to this thread?


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

mjh345 said:


> I don't disagree.......,. but....
> 
> How is that Relevant to this thread?


It's relevant because I wrote this in my last post;

"*Shortly after writing the original post in this thread I purchased Lardy's TRT and TRM and began FF. It has very gone well and we continue to work on it daily. Mouth habits have improved exponentially. I'm very excited to get into formal collar conditioning even though, I must admit, I'm more intimidated by the prospect of CC than I was* *FF*."

I'd guess that is why he suggested it. My primary concern with CC is using the correct amount of stimulation. I started with Hillmann who uses a "barely perceptible nick" for conditioning. It's done very early on and doesn't dissuade the dog in the slightest. (To be honest, I'm still not sure that my pup could even feel those Hillmann nicks) 

I can't say that I ever completely understood the ultimate purpose of the Hillmann-style use of the e-collar but I followed the program as instructed. Now, I'm not quite sure how much to dial it up for TRT CC. I see that he is pretty liberal with it in the videos based on the dogs' reactions at times. My collar is a Dogtra SureStim H Plus which doesn't offer three different buttons to adjust the intensity. To change intensity I need to look at the display and turn the knob. If anybody has any suggestion as to how to determine the proper level of stimulation for TRT collar conditioning I'd be interested in hearing.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

MNHunter said:


> It's relevant because I wrote this in my last post


MJ was just trolling Glen, again.....

Couldn't agree with Glen more by the way about that Lardy CC DVD.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

MNHunter said:


> It's relevant because I wrote this in my last post;
> 
> "*Shortly after writing the original post in this thread I purchased Lardy's TRT and TRM and began FF. It has very gone well and we continue to work on it daily. Mouth habits have improved exponentially. I'm very excited to get into formal collar conditioning even though, I must admit, I'm more intimidated by the prospect of CC than I was* *FF*."
> 
> ...


I've made the transition with 3 dogs now. They key IMO is to go through Lardys formal obedience (covered extremely well in the ecollar DVD) in order to introduce force from the heeling stick and lead. This makes the transition to higher collar stimulation understandable for the dog. You are moving from reinforcement nicks to correction nicks. 

Your pup will breeze through obedience, but don't skip this step IMO.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

captainjack said:


> I've made the transition with 3 dogs now. They key IMO is to go through Lardys formal obedience (covered extremely well in the ecollar DVD) in order to introduce force from the heeling stick and lead. This makes the transition to higher collar stimulation understandable for the dog. You are moving from reinforcement nicks to correction nicks.
> 
> Your pup will breeze through obedience, but don't skip this step IMO.


Since we are already well into FF (we've had around 5 sessions of walking/stick fetch), would you recommend we complete that entirely before we revisit formal obedience with more pressure from heeling stick and lead? 

Also, can collar conditioning begin while FF is still being fine tuned (I'm guessing we will continue to work on it for several more sessions yet)? Or should I completely separate FF and CC?

To clarify, following Hillmann, lessons were always melded together and worked on simultaneously each day. I'm wondering if the same can be done at this stage, blending fetch conditioning and collar conditioning into the same lesson.


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## Desiree (Dec 27, 2009)

MNHunter said:


> Then, after thinking about it, I decided to delete the entire post because I knew that certain members would likely chime in with more belittling and insults and it would just piss me off. It's less frustrating to just use the search bar for any questions I have and continue to work and enjoy our training every day.


 Unfortunately, many folks have found this to be true. Life's just too short, have fun with your dog!


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MNHunter said:


> I can't say that I ever completely understood the ultimate purpose of the Hillmann-style use of the e-collar but I followed the program as instructed. Now, I'm not quite sure how much to dial it up for TRT CC. I see that he is pretty liberal with it in the videos based on the dogs' reactions at times.



I think you need to review the entire TRT material. Throughout his training program using the least amount of pressure to effectively train the dog is emphasized. Just because you are looking at TRT does not necessarily mean you have to “dial it up.” Every dog is different in personality, training level, and tolerance to discipline. Train the dog in front of you and don’t have the mentality that you have to use more collar just because a dog used as an example in the video used more.

/Paul


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I think you need to review the entire TRT material. Throughout his training program using the least amount of pressure to effectively train the dog is emphasized. Just because you are looking at TRT does not necessarily mean you have to “dial it up.” Every dog is different in personality, training level, and tolerance to discipline. Train the dog in front of you and don’t have the mentality that you have to use more collar just because a dog used as an example in the video used more.
> 
> /Paul


I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how much juice to use on my pup, I'm not exactly sure what to look for. What I definitely don't want to do is squash him or put any unnecessary anxiety in him with improper use of pressure. I love his enthusiasm and style and want to keep it through his life.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

MNHunter said:


> I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how much juice to use on my pup, I'm not exactly sure what to look for. What I definitely don't want to do is squash him or put any unnecessary anxiety in him with improper use of pressure. I love his enthusiasm and style and want to keep it through his life.


Well that is the key to dog training  

General rules of collar use and discipline….

*Always* evaluate the dogs level of education. Does he know what is being asked of him? If you conclude that he has the education is he being disobedient, avoiding, or just lacking in effort? This is why CC is done using commands that dog should fully understand, like “sit/here/heal” 

*Never* use more correction than necessary to elicit a behavioral change. What is behavioral change? If he breaks a known command, lets say sit, and you use a level 2 low and he now maintains sit, that is a behavioral change. If he doesn’t sit with a level 2 low then go up one level to 2 medium. You will find the level that gives you the desired change in behavior. Over time you will learn what the typical level he responds too and can use that as a baseline for training. That may change over time as he gets more used to it or there is more excitement/distractions. Learn to read your dog and adjust accordingly. 

CC is designed to help you determine his level as well as educate him on what this new form of discipline is and what the right response should be. 

/Paul


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

The idea of CCing is to create a range of stimulation that your dog can work with in "without" squashing him. Over half of CCing is teaching a dog how to recover from different levels of pressure, so that if for some reason you need a higher level (you can use it), or if for some reason the collar goes wonky, you hit the wrong button etc (it happens). The dog has at least been taught how to recover quickly, and it's not a big issue. CCing is also not something that is completed in a few sessions. Initially all your doing is laying a foundation for further Collar work, however CC develops through-out training, and you won't usually have a fully Collar conditioned dog, until after water force, and after you and your dog learn how to use indirect pressure. Not sure I've ever seen a video, nor a article that has ever done a complete job of instruction how to CC correctly or fully, as it requires a lot of individualized dog reading. It's really something you should find an instructor for; because if it's not done correctly initially, and not in continued development as you progress, through blind work. It will result in problems later. Poor CCing is probably responsible for 80-90% of issues, that a Pro will address, with older dogs that "shut down" or "won't do this" "won't do that" at longer distances.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> Because I know the owner and the owner knows me. You on the other hand.....


But you aren't peanutty.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

How high to dial it up is covered in TRT and the collar conditioning DVD. You look for the behavioral response to pressure. 

I disagree with the notion that you try to figure a range of stimation or whatever that the dog gets to work through or out of. I give enough stimation to create the desired behavioral response without overwhelming the dog. The behavioral response is not only gaged by the reaction to the current correction. Decheating for example... You may be able to stop a dog for cheating, give a cast to water and get a refusal, give a sit-Nick-sit with a low 2, and get the desired cast on next attempt. The next day, you get another cheat and go through the same thing, and again the next day... This is nagging and the cumulative effect of these small corrections day after day take a toll on style and desire. A 4 low nick on that first day may change behavior that day and may carry forward to future cheating marks so that only one or two corrections are required vs smaller corrections day after day after day.

Taking careful notes if your corrections and both the short and long term effects is important.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

MNHunter said:


> Since we are already well into FF (we've had around 5 sessions of walking/stick fetch), would you recommend we complete that entirely before we revisit formal obedience with more pressure from heeling stick and lead?
> 
> Also, can collar conditioning begin while FF is still being fine tuned (I'm guessing we will continue to work on it for several more sessions yet)? Or should I completely separate FF and CC?
> 
> To clarify, following Hillmann, lessons were always melded together and worked on simultaneously each day. I'm wondering if the same can be done at this stage, blending fetch conditioning and collar conditioning into the same lesson.


I wouldn't want the introduction to stick pressure to be during ff (stick fetch). As you know, Hillmann does not use a heeling stick. I prefer to do this during formal obedience on a well known command-sit. 

With that said, as long as the dog responds and will fetch through the pressure, and the stick creates the compulsion you seek (dog tries to beat the stick), then I'd say no harm, no foul. 

I prefer to ff separate from cc, not simply because it is mixing it up ala Hillmann. I want the dog ffd first so that I get a reliable retrieve and can progress with marking. I want the dog going for the memory bird before FTP, so that I know he goes out of desire rather than force. Similarly, I want the dog going for the memory bird on water doubles before forcing to water.

I do mix in retrieving, fun bumpers, and other excitement whe going through formal obedience, yard work, ff, etc. as do both Hillmann and Lardy. You'll find that, with that aspect, there is no disagreement between the two programs.


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

captainjack said:


> I wouldn't want the introduction to stick pressure to be during ff (stick fetch). As you know, Hillmann does not use a heeling stick. I prefer to do this during formal obedience on a well known command-sit.
> 
> With that said, as long as the dog responds and will fetch through the pressure, and the stick creates the compulsion you seek (dog tries to beat the stick), then I'd say no harm, no foul.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the informative posts!

Regarding the heeling stick, I did use it in training for a few days enforcing sit prior to using it in stick fetch and he didn't seem put off by it at all so that's good. I'll spend a few more days on FF and then we will delve into collar conditioning instead of blending the two into the same lesson.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

captainjack said:


> How high to dial it up is covered in TRT and the collar conditioning DVD. You look for the behavioral response to pressure.
> 
> I disagree with the notion that you try to figure a range of stimation or whatever that the dog gets to work through or out of. I give enough stimation to create the desired behavioral response without overwhelming the dog. The behavioral response is not only gaged by the reaction to the current correction. Decheating for example... You may be able to stop a dog for cheating, give a cast to water and get a refusal, give a sit-Nick-sit with a low 2, and get the desired cast on next attempt. The next day, you get another cheat and go through the same thing, and again the next day... This is nagging and the cumulative effect of these small corrections day after day take a toll on style and desire. A 4 low nick on that first day may change behavior that day and may carry forward to future cheating marks so that only one or two corrections are required vs smaller corrections day after day after day.
> 
> Taking careful notes if your corrections and both the short and long term effects is important.


I think you mean stimulation. I also think you have missed the point of what I said. We are talking about CC here, your example of a dog in advanced training is out of context. If you’re training notes are worth a damn you should know what level the dog typically trains on and how often on average you correct the dog. Basic principle of training is to always give the dog the benefit of the doubt, reading the dog to know if he understands what is being asked of him and only when you have caught him “hand in the cookie jar” do you then use the appropriate level of discipline. 

Course the collar does go clear up to 6 high so you could just go with the age old burn and fry methods…not on my dogs of course….

/Paul


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> I think you mean stimulation. I also think you have missed the point of what I said. We are talking about CC here, your example of a dog in advanced training is out of context. If you’re training notes are worth a damn you should know what level the dog typically trains on and how often on average you correct the dog. Basic principle of training is to always give the dog the benefit of the doubt, reading the dog to know if he understands what is being asked of him and only when you have caught him “hand in the cookie jar” do you then use the appropriate level of discipline.
> 
> Course the collar does go clear up to 6 high so you could just go with the age old burn and fry methods…not on my dogs of course….
> 
> /Paul


I think you think my post was about you.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

Thanks Thomas D, Wiilldd1, MNHunter!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

MNHunter said:


> It's relevant because I wrote this in my last post;
> 
> "*Shortly after writing the original post in this thread I purchased Lardy's TRT and TRM and began FF. It has very gone well and we continue to work on it daily. Mouth habits have improved exponentially. I'm very excited to get into formal collar conditioning even though, I must admit, I'm more intimidated by the prospect of CC than I was* *FF*."
> 
> ...


My point is that I'd be VERY careful about thinking the collar is the tool for fixing poor bird handling issues


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## MNHunter (Feb 16, 2015)

mjh345 said:


> My point is that I'd be VERY careful about thinking the collar is the tool for fixing poor bird handling issues


I don't think of the collar as a tool for poor bird handling issues at all. The reason I was talking about collar conditioning is that the bird/bumper handling has gotten much better through FF and we are almost ready to move on to the next step.

One thing that I am still seeing is that, when he picks up a bumper and is running back to me, even if he grabs it right in the middle initially he will sometimes work it over to one side in his mouth so that he can hold it by the end instead of in the middle. I'm not even sure if this is an issue to deal with or if it's something that he may grow out of but I'd rather not see it.


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

MNHunter said:


> I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how much juice to use on my pup, I'm not exactly sure what to look for. What I definitely don't want to do is squash him or put any unnecessary anxiety in him with improper use of pressure. I love his enthusiasm and style and want to keep it through his life.


Yes, as Paul says, this is the 'art' of dog training. How much adverse stimulation do you use on each particular dog to get the desired response??

Introduction to the ecollar on a pup should be a very gradual process. In my view after past experiences with many pups, I like Hillmann's idea to introducing the ecollar early.

I like them to get used to wearing an assortment of collars from 3 months on. My newest fav collar is the 'Comfortflex' which I especially like for leash work. It's much easier on their necks than a choke collar, and they can wear it all of the time. They start wearing the ecollar in addition between 3-4 months, but it is not even turned on at that point.

In my opinion Tritronics created the E-collar and still to this day has the best guide as far as using it. _Tritronics Retriever Training_ written by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and Alice Woodyard was written back in the day when you had to change plugs in the E-collar to change intensity. LOL how have things changed!! However, most of the information written is still the standard in using the collar to illicit a desired response.

In choosing a correct stimulation level, they suggest using the level which when walking your dog on lead makes the dog "quickly cock its ears or quickly move its head". I like to begin a pup at a level which makes them blink their eyes. The book also states, "remember that higher levels of stimulation should be used when you need to stop a behavior which may threaten a dogs life." In my opinion, any vocalization at all from an Ecollar is unnecessary and should not be used at all except in extreme training situations.

So for now in basic training through FF this is the stimulation level you need to stick with and leave the higher levels for advanced training and only with proper instruction. I like to look at the Ecollar as the extension of the lead and my 'heeling' stick. I think this is why Hillmann does NOT use a heeling stick as the two together can be redundant. The heeling stick can even be distracting bordering on creating anxiety for a young dog.

Another wonder tool of the Ecollar is an issue that many, many books and videos don't even attempt to get into and that is the 'continuous' button or switch and the praise tone. (If one does please let me know, as I like to absorb every piece of training information out there in which to add tools to my toolbox.) 

So in summary my ideas for using an Ecollar go something like this:

1) Low continuous button can be used as an extension of the lead when imploring a young dog to respond to the commands sit or here. The stimulation begins with the command sit or here (*after being taught first with the lead*) and is released as SOON as the dog makes the correct response.

2) The nick would be used the same as a heeling stick would be used but of course you don't have to be standing right beside the dog. For example: command-nick-command or sit-nick-sit, more of a reinforcer as Hillmann uses in teaching the sit command and as Lardy uses in illiciting a quick response to a command.

3)Praise tone - can be a replacement for a 'mark' such as 'good'. As it states again in the _Tritronics Retriever Training _bible, "first introduce it preceding fun bumpers, food rewards, and other enjoyable experiences."

What a wonderful training tool it can be! Now the sky is the limit, so use your imagination and go out and experiment on your dog with the possibilities....and most of all HAVE FUN!!!!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

TBell said:


> Wow what a sad direction this thread took....BJ Gatley (whoever you are since I can't even find you on a people search on Entry Express so.....) bad on you!
> 
> MNHunter just wanted to know how to get his dog to stop chewing on a bird. Maybe nobody knows the answer, so they send you off to a pro?
> 
> ...


Tammy,

Thanks for sharing a really cool set of steps that many of us don't do, that maybe could gain some opportunity to fairly communicate to our young retrieves what we're working towards.

I know there are a couple young retrievers who benefited from your commentary on the gloved hand hold lessons just in my local training group. (My 7 month old "PJ-pup" is one of those)

I did some sessions based upon the phone chat we had several weeks ago and then did a few review sessions this week. At least one pup in my training group owned by one of my best friends has also done this.

Thank you! Chris


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

TBell said:


> Yes, as Paul says, this is the 'art' of dog training. How much adverse stimulation do you use on each particular dog to get the desired response??
> 
> Introduction to the ecollar on a pup should be a very gradual process. In my view after past experiences with many pups, I like Hillmann's idea to introducing the ecollar early.
> 
> ...


Excellent post! Thank you for being helpful and constructive!

One thought of caution regarding Tritronics Retriever Training written by Jim and Phyllis Dobbs and Alice Woodyard.
That book was first published in 1993 and advocated "cold burns" with "mild stimulation" for concepts such as shore breaking(page 207) and no-no drills(page 176). 

This is very different than the more modern indirect-pressure (sit-nick-sit) methods of today (Lardy for example). _*Mixing these two methods could be confusing to a young retriever.*_

(I like 99 percent of the training ideas presented in this book, but I prefer "sit-nick-sit,cast to inform" indirect pressure over the the "cold burn,mild stimulation" approach with no information from the trainer to the retriever)


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

THANKS SO MUCH, Chris and MissSkeeter, for the confirmation that my info is useful. I certainly didn't make the video with thoughts that more than one person would even watch it since it was made for a particular person and sent as a PM.

This is just an accumulation of my thoughts after 15 years training my own very mediocre dogs. If I learn a new trick that may help just one person to be spared of the heart ache of ruining a nice dog, then I am satisfied.

MissSkeeter, I too used to be of the mindset that 'direct' pressure had no place in my own program since I had known of its use in my earlier days by persons that could be a bit heavy handed. However, after learning of its use by a very successful field trial person who was getting a young dog ready to run derbies before they had taught the pup to handle, I revisited the idea.

Wouldn't a toned down continuous 'stimulation' which simply created an unpleasant feeling rather than an actual 'burn' cause less anxiety for a young dog running the bank than a whistle-sit-nick-cast or even a come in with a nick? I have played with this scenario on my young dogs running banks and/or exiting the water much too early to decide that yes indeed it was much less confusing for them and allowed them to maintain momentum and attitudes better than the alternative. 

It works better if you can repeat the exercise with success so they understand the difference between running the bank while being under a slight stimulation and NOT running the bank but swimming with no adverse stimulation. I know this isn't taught by Lardy, but I am not opposed to something that may work in a particular situation. Never say never, but it is something that should be done with extreme caution.

Again, thank you! Now back to experimenting with a young dog on hold who likes to CHOMP on everything .


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

TBell said:


> THANKS SO MUCH, Chris and MissSkeeter, for the confirmation that my info is useful. I certainly didn't make the video with thoughts that more than one person would even watch it since it was made for a particular person and sent as a PM.
> 
> This is just an accumulation of my thoughts after 15 years training my own very mediocre dogs. If I learn a new trick that may help just one person to be spared of the heart ache of ruining a nice dog, then I am satisfied.
> 
> ...


Both approaches work. My point was mixing a "cold burn, low stimulation" approach like Dobbs with an indirect pressure approach like Lardy is likely to be confusing to a young retriever. Also,I've seen too many young retrievers afraid to go on shore for a mark because of the "cold burn approach", which you could blame on the trainer, but I think the "cold burn,low stimulation" approach is riskier . 

Everyone I know uses Lardy's indirect pressure approach and I think it is superior and also fairer to the dog. 
If I wanted to shore-break a rat, I would use the "cold burn" approach, with an smart retriever I prefer the indirect pressure approach where I can inform the correct response via casting.

The only "cold burn approach" I use is a mousetrap on the kitchen counter when my labs start counter-surfing...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Dobb's no longer uses the cold burn methods outlined in that book. 

/Paul


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

MissSkeeter said:


> Both approaches work. My point was mixing a "cold burn, low stimulation" approach like Dobbs with an indirect pressure approach like Lardy is likely to be confusing to a young retriever. Also,I've seen too many young retrievers afraid to go on shore for a mark because of the "cold burn approach", which you could blame on the trainer, but I think the "cold burn,low stimulation" approach is riskier .
> 
> Everyone I know uses Lardy's indirect pressure approach and I think it is superior and also fairer to the dog.
> If I wanted to shore-break a rat, I would use the "cold burn" approach, with an smart retriever I prefer the indirect pressure approach where I can inform the correct response via casting.
> ...


I still think you are missing what I'm saying. It is NOT a 'burn' but a very low continuous stimulation. If you will place your own hand on the collar while doing this, you can tell the difference. 

I can appreciate those who wish to stay within the constraints of a particular program or philosophy, however, I prefer to think outside of the box when necessary. Also after training with various pros and successful amateurs I realize that they did not put every they know into their books or videos. 

Sometimes long forgotten 'tools' or 'techniques' become passé or simply take too much time for pros to use when training 25 dogs a day. Training videos and books are excellent guides for training but cannot possibly cover every situation or dog. So what I am saying is that there are many many ways to use the ecollar that haven't been put on a video. Just keep an open mind when training and never say never 😊 .


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## MissSkeeter (May 17, 2013)

A "cold burn" is continuous stimulation *with no preceeding command*.
The level of stimulation is irrelevant. For example, I run my youngest lab
on a 1-level which I can barely feel and yet that level of ecollar is plenty to trigger a change in behavior.

I believe when Lardy uses the term "burn" he is referring to continuous,
not upping the level of stimulation. 

I wonder why Dobbs no longer uses this "cold burn" approach!

Do you understand the risk in potentially confusing a young retriever with the cold burn approach?

If I want to snake-proof or porcupine-proof I would use the cold burn approach.

See also:
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?97678-Hey-Lardy-folks/page9


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## TBell (Apr 1, 2004)

'burn' 'zap' and 'lightning strike' are also NOT what I'm talking about........finesse training is.


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