# Gunners Guild



## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

I think it may be time for them to bring in some new, young blood (under the age of say 60) and retire some of the relics (god bless them for their years of service). 

Also, maybe it is time to reduce their influence at the National events. 

After all, it is suppose to be about the dogs, right?


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Reginald said:


> I think it may be time for them to bring in some new, young blood (under the age of say 60) and retire some of the relics (god bless them for their years of service).
> 
> Also, maybe it is time to reduce their influence at the National events.
> 
> After all, it is suppose to be about the dogs, right?


I belonged to a Retriever Club that did just that. 5 years later they were settling for 
whoever they could find in the gallery. 

I am not a gunner but when throwing at Nationals I've seen some pretty amazing 
shooting from some that are no longer with us, up close & personal.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Reginald said:


> I think it may be time for them to bring in some new, young blood (under the age of say 60) and retire some of the relics (god bless them for their years of service).
> 
> Also, maybe it is time to reduce their influence at the National events.
> 
> After all, it is suppose to be about the dogs, right?


And how many Nationals have you:

Attended? 
Worked? 
Run? 

The Gunners - some of whom do compete with dogs - make a tremendous sacrifice of time and money. They take a week, sometimes two weeks off to gun. They pay for their travel, lodging, and meals. They are there for setup week. During the week of competition, they are there from sun up to sun down. 

As for influence, there are many different groups have a say in what happens at a National. I don't think that the Gunners have any more influence than any of those other groups.

I have found - both at a weekend trial and at a National - you ignore the comments of experienced Gunners at your own peril. I have participated in Nationals where the Judges ignored the Gunners' suggestions and paid the price. In the 3/4 series of the 2013, National, the Gunners made a request - which we thought made sense. We adopted it, and things went without a hitch. 

In short, I disagree entirely with your inference

Ted


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

You haven't even divulged your real name, and yet you think you can dictate how things should be run and judge expertise by age, of the volunteers they pay their own way to gun to give back. Do you even run or is this just an armchair management?


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## BrettG (Apr 4, 2005)

I threw for 4 series last year in Paducah and had a great time talking with the gunners that shot the fliers I threw. It was clear that they were a dedicated group that all had sacrificed a great deal to be there for the entire event. I appreciate their effort and hope that one day I too will be able to spend that much time in set up and helping at a national.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

While "new blood" is always encouraged and needed the sacrifices inherent to the position are what restrict many younger folks from doing it. There are few less than 45 year olds who can take 7-14 days off work and travel across the country to shoot for the pleasure of others. I've had the privilege to gun with a very experienced Guild member who is also a 8 pt AA judge and former National judge. 

The work is thankless, the days are long, and new blood is always needed, but not at the expense of the experienced.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

How many nationals one attends or has run or worked is completely irrelevant to good shooting. LOL That's a good one, absolutely love it. 

I know what good wing shooting looks like. What I saw last Saturday, with pretty much zero wind to deal with, was a travesty. 38 Roosters for 18 running dogs and they couldn't finish the test. 
When you can no longer catch up to a Rooster or Hen Pheasant it's time to remove yourself. No one will fault a person for admitting the time has come. Put the gun down and walk away with your pride intact. It is suppose to be about the dogs, correct?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Reginald said:


> How many nationals one attends or has run or worked is completely irrelevant to good shooting. LOL That's a good one, absolutely love it.
> 
> I know what good wing shooting looks like. What I saw last Saturday, with pretty much zero wind to deal with, was a travesty. 38 Roosters for 18 running dogs and they couldn't finish the test.
> When you can no longer catch up to a Rooster or Hen Pheasant it's time to remove yourself. No one will fault a person for admitting the time has come. Put the gun down and walk away with your pride intact. It is suppose to be about the dogs, correct?



I find it curious that frequently those who are most outspoken elect to remain anonymous. If you have not attended, worked or judged a National you have no factu basis for rendering opinions as to skill, competence or anything else. I am through with you. "Ignore" button to the rescue.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

I guess with that response I hit the nail on the head. 

Ignore to the rescue for sure.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I have never witnessed the shooting at a National. I have never worked a National.. I DO have really cool dreams of running a dog at a national.. I HAVE shot my fair share of flyers.. I have gunned at a few HT's..

I think many people who I have been around, only key in on their ability to kill the bird.. Most kill it way to quickly trying to prove they are a great wing shooter..

A flyer is supposed to fly,, NOT look to the dog, as a dead bird station... Its one thing to kill the bird quick, its quite another to ride it, and kill it so the bird has a chance to put on a production.... I think Judges like that, along with a few extra shots!.. 

The rooster cackles as it's panicking to leave Dodge,, The Posey is fillin the air with lead! The culprit is luckly dispatched at the last possible minute..

Once in awhile,,Tom Horn shows up,,and can do all the above with one very amazing shot... Those types are few and far between..

We ALL think we are great shots,, until we are around the best.. 

JMHO,,, Probably shoulda kept my mouth shut,, but I cant help myself.. ​


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Did you not see what happened to Jeff Epstein? :razz:


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Reginald said:


> How many nationals one attends or has run or worked is completely irrelevant to good shooting. LOL That's a good one, absolutely love it.
> 
> I know what good wing shooting looks like. What I saw last Saturday, with pretty much zero wind to deal with, was a travesty. 38 Roosters for 18 running dogs and they couldn't finish the test.
> When you can no longer catch up to a Rooster or Hen Pheasant it's time to remove yourself. No one will fault a person for admitting the time has come. Put the gun down and walk away with your pride intact. It is suppose to be about the dogs, correct?


The Gunner’s are not selected for their shooting skills


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

How does the guild get it's members? They do receive an amazing amount of pampering. I like being pampered. I was doing grounds committee work one time filling in field ruts because parking committee had put nic-knack sellers in wrong field when a refrigerator truck from Maine pulls up asking for directions. Had the Gunners lobsters! Lobster's?? We grounds grunts had to bring a sandwich from home. And the rotation thing they do, in the same field that a month earlier a club member and I shot for a 60 dog event with hardly a break. All looking down on you with break actions priced higher than the truck I am driving. Yet when they get stuck because they park any place they like I am told I cannot giggle as I pull them out with the aforementioned truck. And those that know me know I enjoy a good giggle!
Maybe I'm just not guild worthy.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

The Guns provide their own perks (lobsters ordered and paid for by one of them well known in the field trial world). At least one of them, who has been gunning for over 30 years, is a second generation National gun. There is a core of members many serving for multiple decades and typically new people with shooting skills will be invited when the National is in their time zone.. I have served in that capacity on several occasions but lack the available time and financial resources to attend two Nationals each year. On two occasions I served as Co Captain of the guns and as such never shot a single bird, instead organizing the teams and shift changes. It should be noted that shooting fliers is only a small part of what the guns do. Rain or shine every shot (poppers included) is supplied by a member or members (in the case of double pops) by the Official National Guns. It’s easy to be critical when there are no birds but foolish to forget how much work the official National guns do.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

If you're looking for a position, it seems this is not a good approach.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I have worked (volunteered) at multiple positions at both open and amateur Nationals. Just like the gunners, I have paid my own way to volunteer my services. With that said, here is what I have noticed regarding the gunners. There is a certain degree of separatism and arrogance displayed by some members of that group that you will not see in other committees. Also, I can honestly say, I see a far lower percentage of no birds on a weekend trial than I do at the Nationals. Just saying.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

wetdog said:


> I have worked (volunteered) at multiple positions at both open and amateur Nationals. Just like the gunners, I have paid my own way to volunteer my services.


And without people like you Nationals could not exist in their current form. It is good to remember that those like you continue to help but few people work both Nationals every year, most of the Guns do. I have always volunteered when the National was in my area (but that is only the Open National every 4 years) or when my dog has been qualified.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Point well taken Dr Ed. I only truly volunteer for the Pacific time zone. I will work other time zones if my dog qualifies. My favorite job was towing the judge's porta potty to each new series. Not many people in the gallery get mad at you for poor performance!


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

I'd heard similar negative things about members of the Gunner's Guild. This year I worked both setup week and the entire NARC (the grounds guys do NOT get the kudus they deserve, btw). During setup week in particular, and less so during the event itself, I interfaced directly with the gunners. They were easy to work with, and I'd happily work with them again. I can't speak to the experience of others, and I have no doubt there have been negative interactions, but my experience was entirely pleasant. They definitely practice separatism, but that is driven at least in part by their job. There is a lot of internal coordination required as well as direct coordination with the chief marshal, grounds, and bird throwers to manage gun changes and station setup as part of a move between series. To a lesser degree you see the same thing with the marshals, bird stewards, traffic, and grounds crew - they all have to form an internally cohesive group to get their respective jobs done. The gunners may take it a degree farther than the other committees, but they are the same guys event after event, which has created greater group cohesion. The other committees are not made up of the same people event after event and have no opportunity to become such a tight unit.


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## twall (Jun 5, 2006)

I have found like in the gallery is a lot different than at the line, holding a judges book or in the field throwing/shooting/planting birds.

Tom


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## labguy (Jan 17, 2006)

The person throwing the flyers is just as, if not more, important than the shooters. Wind velocity and direction are also important factors in consistently dropping birds in a specific area.

Ive shot lots of flyers and seldom miss if the the other two variables are working well.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

labguy said:


> The person throwing the flyers is just as, if not more, important than the shooters.


Very true and to a much greater degree when pheasants are involved.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I did some more thinking and may not have given Dr Ed his due on another point he made. I compared what I observed as percentage of no birds on a weekend trial to those in a National. Really that is comparing apples to oranges. Weekend trials usually have one flyer per marking series in AA. Nationals commonly have 2 flyers, sometimes 3 flyers and I have heard of a rare series that has had 4 fliers. As Dr Ed pointed out, the more flyers you add the higher the likelihood of have a no bird. For my comparison I made I would have to compare the no birds in a series of the National to 2, 3 or 4 weekend trials cumulatively. The 10th this year at Corning was difficult because you had to have 3 good falls to give the dog his number. Using 38 roosters for 18 dogs doesn't reflect on that gun station because a no bird on one of the two other stations would cause the 1st gun to have to kill another bird to re-run the dog. Kenny Trott did have an unusual bit of bad luck though. Think his 6 no birds in the 10th must be a record for one dog. You know, Deke did a great job when he finally ran. He really kept his head through all those trips to the line!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

On the weekends:
- You are typically talking about duck flyers
- You never (in my experience) shoot two flyers in the same test
- There are very few no-birds called (whether deserved or not)
- The judges are not insisting on 40-60 yard pheasant flyers

All of the above make shooting flyers at a National a different beast.

My hat's off to the Gunners' Guild

Ted


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Kinda like my new thought, if you didn't serve and/or didn't vote then get outa my face. If you are a in the dark whistle blower it didn't happen.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I am assuming multiple fliers in a series are needed for whittling down the field? 

Is the necessity of having the fliers go such great distances for the sake of retiring the gun? or getting the bird far enough away that the dog can't do the 'geometry'? Do trials ever use those big old 'tri pod' wingers that could throw dead birds the same distance?

Does having multiple fliers give pro trained dogs (top tier trainers) a bigger advantage? I would assume dogs on these trucks have the opportunity to spend more time training with multiple flier stations in the field than dogs who are amateur trained and/or see fewer multiple flier set up with a 'not so top tier' pro? Not trying to get into a 'fair' vs 'unfair' debate. Asking because I don't know if it matters or not. I would guess all the handler with qualified dogs who bothered to enter a national would have opportunity to train for multiple fliers during pre trial training?


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

EdA said:


> And without people like you Nationals could not exist in their current form. It is good to remember that those like you continue to help but few people work both Nationals every year, most of the Guns do. I have always volunteered when the National was in my area (but that is only the Open National every 4 years) or when my dog has been qualified.


Ed,

Is it your belief then that the National events would not take place without the Gunners Guild?


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

So I gotta relay a couple humorous moments during the 10th series. I believe Deke had gotten his 4th no bird at this point. Danny Farmer walks into the gallery and one of Deke's owners exclaims to Danny that he had just gotten his 4th no bird. Danny replies matter of factly, "Well he ought to be good at them". I just about busted my gut laughing. Also when they were introducing the finalists after the conclusion of the 10th, when Kenny was introduced, the whole gallery started chanting, "No bird, no bird, no bird". So there were light moments even in the adversity of the no bird situation in the 10th.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Tobias said:


> I am assuming multiple fliers in a series are needed for whittling down the field?
> 
> Is the necessity of having the fliers go such great distances for the sake of retiring the gun? or getting the bird far enough away that the dog can't do the 'geometry'? Do trials ever use those big old 'tri pod' wingers that could throw dead birds the same distance?
> 
> Does having multiple fliers give pro trained dogs (top tier trainers) a bigger advantage? I would assume dogs on these trucks have the opportunity to spend more time training with multiple flier stations in the field than dogs who are amateur trained and/or see fewer multiple flier set up with a 'not so top tier' pro? Not trying to get into a 'fair' vs 'unfair' debate. Asking because I don't know if it matters or not. I would guess all the handler with qualified dogs who bothered to enter a national would have opportunity to train for multiple fliers during pre trial training?


I will take a shot at your questions, although others may have different thoughts.

1) multiple flyers do pose a more difficult test for some dogs. As you know, when it is time for the flyer some dogs creep, head swing, prance etc. Having more than one can make some dogs become unglued. Also it is partly for show for the gallery. Having multiple flyers can be an impressive show.
2) big, long throws can truly test a dog's ability to mark the bird. Many dogs get into the habit of marking off the gunners. They get used to a bird landing 20-25 yards on an angle back from the gun. Put a bird way out and the dog has to mark the bird, not the gun. I have seen wingers used in trials, but not often. A thrown dead bird is usually retired and taking down and putting up a winger for every dog would be a pain. Marks are not thrown in the manner of hunt tests where the winger and gunners are behind a holding blind. Gunners in a field trial are out and visible, so a winger would have to be out of the retiring blind also. The wingers I have seen used on dead birds are done if the gun is not retired. Also, at a National, most of the bird throwers have big arms and can huck a dead bird a good distance. We had some very strong bird throwers.
3) no advantage to a pro. Anyone can train for multiple flyers. Pros do not typically train with multiple flyers either. I would suspect the vast majority of dogs only see multiple flyers during the National and the week of pre-training prior to the National. Having pre-trained with top tier pros myself, I can tell you multiple flyers are not often used in pre-training either. Rather the mechanics of marking that will make a dog successful with multiple flyers are drilled. This means working on the dog marking one bird at a time, dead or a flyer. The basics of steadiness, preventing head swinging, line manners, etc.

Hope this helps.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Reginald said:


> Ed,
> 
> Is it your believe then that the National events would not take place without the Gunners Guild?


The response you selected was my response to David’s post about volunteer help in general and without that volunteer help Nationals would not exist in their current form. Entry fees would double or triple and the the National would likely be held on the same grounds annually. The guns are only a portion of that group of volunteers. Much about this thing we call a sport or hobby is based on tradition. The Gunners are a traditional but not irreplaceable part of that. I would also point out that triple fliers as part of the tenth series is traditional but many Nationals have ended with but a single or double flier. To my knowledge no other National series than the tenth has ever been held with three fliers. If memory serves me one of the best Nationals (perhaps arguably) in recent memory had a single flier, a cock pheasant, in the tenth series.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

wetdog said:


> I will take a shot at your questions, although others may have different thoughts.
> 
> 1) multiple flyers do pose a more difficult test for some dogs. As you know, when it is time for the flyer some dogs creep, head swing, prance etc. Having more than one can make some dogs become unglued. Also it is partly for show for the gallery. Having multiple flyers can be an impressive show.
> 2) big, long throws can truly test a dog's ability to mark the bird. Many dogs get into the habit of marking off the gunners. They get used to a bird landing 20-25 yards on an angle back from the gun. Put a bird way out and the dog has to mark the bird, not the gun. I have seen wingers used in trials, but not often. A thrown dead bird is usually retired and taking down and putting up a winger for every dog would be a pain. Marks are not thrown in the manner of hunt tests where the winger and gunners are behind a holding blind. Gunners in a field trial are out and visible, so a winger would have to be out of the retiring blind also. The wingers I have seen used on dead birds are done if the gun is not retired. Also, at a National, most of the bird throwers have big arms and can huck a dead bird a good distance. We had some very strong bird throwers.
> ...



thank you David

Yes it sure does help answer my questions.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

EdA said:


> Much about this thing we call a sport or hobby is based on tradition. The Gunners are a traditional but not irreplaceable part of that. I would also point out that triple fliers as part of the tenth series is traditional but many Nationals have ended with but a single or double flier.


Ed,

Can you elaborate a bit more on the tradition, more specifically the tradition of having 3 flyers in the 10th?

Thanks


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I am assuming multiple fliers in a series are needed for whittling down the field?
> 
> Is the necessity of having the fliers go such great distances for the sake of retiring the gun? or getting the bird far enough away that the dog can't do the 'geometry'? Do trials ever use those big old 'tri pod' wingers that could throw dead birds the same distance?
> 
> Does having multiple fliers give pro trained dogs (top tier trainers) a bigger advantage? I would assume dogs on these trucks have the opportunity to spend more time training with multiple flier stations in the field than dogs who are amateur trained and/or see fewer multiple flier set up with a 'not so top tier' pro? Not trying to get into a 'fair' vs 'unfair' debate. Asking because I don't know if it matters or not. I would guess all the handler with qualified dogs who bothered to enter a national would have opportunity to train for multiple fliers during pre trial training?



To me, the essence of the National Experience is a big rooster pheasant or hen streaking across the field. You will see more pheasants ridden out at a National than you will anywhere else. The dog that is able to dig out that big flyer or that in flyer is often there in the 10th. Why flyers? 

1. They demand discipline from the dogs. The dogs want the flyers. When they come to the line and see the stack of crates with three - or more people standing by them, they know a flyer is coming out.
- Will the dog be steady?
- Will the dog be able to mark the other birds, which are not so attractive?
- Does the dog have the ability to discriminate the scent of the fresh flyer from the older falls?
- Does the dog have the ability to drive through feather drift from the flyers?
These are things you learn from flyers

2. As Dave mentioned, the dogs are accustomed to duck flyers which usually land within prescribed distance (30 yards) from the gun and typically in a relatively discrete area
When you have pheasants that are ridden out, if you hunt the typical distance, you will never find the bird. With National Flyers - especially the pheasants - you quickly learn which dogs mark the birds and set up intelligent hunts.

3. One of the most entertaining tests to watch at a National is a test where there are two prominent flyer stations deep (ducks). And two nasty short retired birds (hen pheasants). The dog picks up one flyer (duck). Does the handler take the candy (the other flyer) off the table, and then try to dig out two check down birds after having gone long twice? Or does the handler go for the short bird, knowing that the candy is on the table and alluring? You only get that from multiple flyers.

4. There are pros - and amateurs - that don't train regularly on pheasants. And it's not just training on pheasants - it's training on pheasants that have been ridden out. Not all pros - or amateurs have those big flyers in training. 

If your dog can't mark hen pheasants - stay home. Your wasting your time - and money - at a National. 

I had a dog Mootsie, FC/AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator (FC/AFC Code Blue x FC/AFC Trumarc's Lean Cuisine) that I loved running at Nationals - because she was deadly at pheasant flyers. 

One of my great regrets is that I got her to the 9th series twice and couldn't close the deal.

Ted


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## Melanie Foster (Nov 29, 2018)

Reginald said:


> What I saw last Saturday, with pretty much zero wind to deal with, was a travesty. 38 Roosters for 18 running dogs and they couldn't finish the test.


Please clarify for us. Were you there in person and "saw" this on Saturday? With "pretty much zero wind"?

Are you friends with 2tall by any chance?


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

It’s been an interesting read to a subject that’s a conundrum and a bit of a sticky wicket. Lots of no birds in the final series of a National perhaps increases luck into the equation where you might need or expect consistency to be of timely importance to those who have succeeded in being there to the last series and have a shot at the golden ring. Again it’s been an interesting read,


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

I haven't shot for a national, but I regularly shoot for my club in the Open and Am and at hunt tests. I'm 56 and I don't expect I'll shoot worse in 4 years. What's your point? Also I'm all for young blood. Tell us where to find it. They need to be dedicated and reliable and take the pressure and not miss and humble when they do miss and able to get along with whoever they may be asked to shoot with and supervise bird boys that don't necessarily know anything and may be afraid of ducks and be quiet when the working dog is near and sit in the sun all day and don't miss and pay attention and don't miss. I'd love some relief.

P.S. We don't miss.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Please clarify for us. Were you there in person and "saw" this on Saturday? With "pretty much zero wind"?
> 
> Are you friends with 2tall by any chance?


Nothing to contribute here other than the humor at seeing the name of one of rtf's most famous interlocutors again in print as a "junior member" - welcome back and bring along Bait and Glenda the Good New Englander next time!

And oh, yeah, for Tobias and the idea of using multiple flyers in a training series - only if NASA were holding impromptu canine astronaut auditions without any need for rocket propulsion to get the candidates into space...

MG


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

Ken Barton said:


> It’s been an interesting read to a subject that’s a conundrum and a bit of a sticky wicket. Lots of no birds in the final series of a National perhaps increases luck into the equation where you might need or expect consistency to be of timely importance to those who have succeeded in being there to the last series and have a shot at the golden ring. Again it’s been an interesting read,


Not to hijack this thread, Ken's comment on consistency brings up another thought to me. It is said that the flyer in a trial or test is the most unfair bird because of the difficulty of getting consistent falls. It would seem to me, the more flyers in a series, the more possibility of not having a consistent test for each dog. I know personally, I have thought I would rather run in Canada where there are no flyers because I have been burned many times in trials by getting an unusual flyer that landed way out of the normal fall area or a missed flyer that the dog watched fly away. Would reducing the number of multiple flyers in a National make the series more consistent dog to dog as well as making the trial move faster because of the reduced likelihood of no birds? I know that is a judge's choice, but just saying.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

wetdog said:


> Not to hijack this thread, Ken's comment on consistency brings up another thought to me. It is said that the flyer in a trial or test is the most unfair bird because of the difficulty of getting consistent falls. It would seem to me, the more flyers in a series, the more possibility of not having a consistent test for each dog. I know personally, I have thought I would rather run in Canada where there are no flyers because I have been burned many times in trials by getting an unusual flyer that landed way out of the normal fall area or a missed flyer that the dog watched fly away. Would reducing the number of multiple flyers in a National make the series more consistent dog to dog as well as making the trial move faster because of the reduced likelihood of no birds? I know that is a judge's choice, but just saying.


There is no way to eliminate unfairness and create total uniformity. 

- You run early. There is too little scent.
- You run late. There is too much scent.
- You run at noon. The guns are washed out.
- The wind shifts, and a bird gets harder or easier.

I like the variance of the flyer (within reason) and what it tells me about a dog's marking and problem solving ability


Ted


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## Old School Labs (May 17, 2006)

I have sat here long enough and read all the BS about the Gunners Guild and no birds. Ted and Ed have both judged Nationals and know what it takes. To sit there and degrade the gunners for a no bird or multiples, but have never been to, worked or seen a National is stupid. I am a National Gunner, and can attest to the skills of all the people in the Gunners Guild, regardless of age. Many things contribute to a no bird, throwers skill, (not the gunner) do they even know how to throw a live pheasant flyer, are Judges being very picky about where that bird lands, etc. etc. If you want to sit at a keyboard and degrade people putting out their time and finances (2 and now 3 times with the NDC) for a National event for the dogs, and know nothing, *I say shut the Hell up and go lay by your dish. * PS I am sure Kenny was not happy about all the no birds, but Deke did a great job, and he understands what it takes. A National is nothing even close to a weekend trial shooting, which I have done plenty of locally. :2c:_ I am now off the podium_.


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## Casey Adams (Oct 2, 2009)

Old School Labs said:


> I have sat here long enough and read all the BS about the Gunners Guild and no birds. Ted and Ed have both judged Nationals and know what it takes. To sit there and degrade the gunners for a no bird or multiples, but have never been to, worked or seen a National is stupid. I am a National Gunner, and can attest to the skills of all the people in the Gunners Guild, regardless of age. Many things contribute to a no bird, throwers skill, (not the gunner) do they even know how to throw a live pheasant flyer, are Judges being very picky about where that bird lands, etc. etc. If you want to sit at a keyboard and degrade people putting out their time and finances (2 and now 3 times with the NDC) for a National event for the dogs, and know nothing, *I say shut the Hell up and go lay by your dish. * PS I am sure Kenny was not happy about all the no birds, but Deke did a great job, and he understands what it takes. A National is nothing even close to a weekend trial shooting, which I have done plenty of locally. :2c:_ I am now off the podium_.


I was planning to stay out of this but reading this makes me think if something isn’t said nothing will change. You are focusing on one dog and not the others? Why is that, yes he had more but all dogs with no birds or non no birds are also affected. You focus only on the tenth what about the other 5 marking series? The issue with no birds has been getting worse each year to the point the gunners blame the throwers the throwers blame the gunners (as seen in the post above) everyone at the events listening has heard it. That in itself tells you there is a problem. The biggest issue I see is the whole let it ride out, lets see how far you can throw it, lets see how far out we can get it before we shoot, and all the other statements that have been made and heard. These events are not about how big a flyer those in the field can get (who are there for 20-25 dogs then changed out), but about the dogs who toe the line. 

As Ted and David say the flyer is the most unfair bird and that is simply because it is allowed to be. I have had many discussions and listened in on many more conversations with those who have been at this a lot longer than me. It seems that pretty much all of them would like to see parameters set on the flyer. In this the judges go out mark the spot they want the bird to land just like a dead bird then mark ten yards each direction from there. This gives the flyer a 20 yard area to land, as someone that has thrown and shot a lot of his own flyers I can tell you this can be done. By doing this yes dogs have to mark, they have to decipher through the older falls, but what they do not have to do is use a handle, go out of an event, gut hunt, etc on a bird that is 30 yards farther and deeper than any other. That plain and simple is not fair to the DOG, for them to go out and work the area of all fresh shot birds, feathers, blood, etc that other dogs have had and there bird be nowhere close. IF that is the only way you can get dogs to hunt then the bird placement of the whole test should be revisited. A dog is supposed to honor their nose and work an area, a 20 yard area is plenty to see this. 

Until we stop pointing fingers, making excuses for our failures as humans which we all have, then we will never get to making this fair for the dogs. A lot of you posting on this thread have spoke in the past about sportsmanship and honor for fellow contestants, why is it you don’t have those same thoughts for doing what’s best for the dogs? By settling for birds being unfair for some and not others you are settling for mediocracy, do you also settle for mediocracy when training your dogs? I can tell you the people that are at the nationals most likely did not, so why is it fair you ask so much of your dogs but not also the mechanics of the test? Why is it if a dead bird is short by four yards or it misses an island its a no bird but if a flyer is 20-30 yards farther they roll with it? Every bird should have a parameter set on it of what is fair to the dog, if the guys in the field cant fulfill that then they need to change or the bird needs to change period. I personally would like to see paid bird throwers at the event just like every weekend trial I attend this was also another great topic recently. I know there are groups that are willing to give grants to help this, I also feel if they raised the entry fee $50 per dog at the national to help cover the cost you wouldn’t hear much complaining and you would have guys that do this all year in the field. you would cut way down on thrower changes lowering the odds of bad throws. No one is trying to mess up or miss a throw, but you raise your odds putting someone in the field that does it 5-6 days week all year vs the guy that does it 4-5 times all year.

The gunners and workers do give up a lot to go to the events and everyone appreciates it, but so do the handlers and owners. Everyone is out of pocket, it cost a lot to go to them. The way I see it you can continue to point fingers and blame everyone else and nothing changes or just like when you work through a problem training a dog we all can work to find solutions and ideas to make it better. These dogs work their butts off for us to try and do it right, to get better, to do what we ask of them and we owe it to them to make things as fair as possible and do right by them. Nationals are about show casing great dog work and nothing else so lets find the best way to let them do that. These conversations are only good if you look to improve instead of place blame. I am sure some will agree and others will disagree and thats ok with me but lets try to blend it all up and give the dogs what they deserve.


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## Peter Balzer (Mar 15, 2014)

"Raise entry fees by $50". . . . NRC and NARC have 100-120 entries now?? So round it to $5,000 to hire a gunner??
8 Days of throwing for a National $200/day x 8 days = $1,600
8 nights in a hotel $150/night = $1,200.

$3,800 and you haven't figured in travel or food expense. . . . Haven't even covered one flyer station . . . 

Ed wasn't kidding when he said you've have to double or triple the entry fee if you want to hire help.


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## Gunners Up (Jul 29, 2004)

Peter Balzer said:


> "Raise entry fees by $50". . . . NRC and NARC have 100-120 entries now?? So round it to $5,000 to hire a gunner??
> 8 Days of throwing for a National $200/day x 8 days = $1,600
> 8 nights in a hotel $150/night = $1,200.
> 
> ...


Peter, I think Casey was proposing hiring full time throwers for more consistent throws, but yes the cost does add up quickly when you do the math.


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## Casey Adams (Oct 2, 2009)

Peter Balzer said:


> "Raise entry fees by $50". . . . NRC and NARC have 100-120 entries now?? So round it to $5,000 to hire a gunner??
> 8 Days of throwing for a National $200/day x 8 days = $1,600
> 8 nights in a hotel $150/night = $1,200.
> 
> ...


SO your total is actually $2800 and most likely it would be $100/day. So 8 throwers to have two shifts is $800 per day x 8 days = $6400. 

That’s if you have to pay food and lodging at all, if done ahead of time most areas have lots of pros who have workers that could fill the need and then all your paying is the $6400 which I would go out on a limb and would say would be the case in most areas the National Is held, heck if you got four from the area your already ahead. So my original $50 idea covers $5000 then all they need is $1400 to cover it. The PRTA has mentioned they would donate a grant so there you go with 15 minutes of thought there is one option. On another note to everyone that says it cant be done I just want you to realize the national in Corning prior to this one did have all paid bird throwers at it so it can and has already been done. The question is why did it stop?

Just saw gunners up and yes I am only referring to throwers for consistency that should help the gunners as well.


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## Jerry S. (May 18, 2009)

Is Reginald the Whistleblower?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks Ted, regarding the use of pheasant flyers. Makes a lot of sense to me.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Exactly.. Doesn’t matter what my personal history is, this is right. So sorry to see team s that made it so far suffer from multiple no-birds. Why does that make me so bad?
(this was in reply to Casey Adams post).


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Casey Adams said:


> I was planning to stay out of this but reading this makes me think if something isn’t said nothing will change. You are focusing on one dog and not the others? Why is that, yes he had more but all dogs with no birds or non no birds are also affected. You focus only on the tenth what about the other 5 marking series? The issue with no birds has been getting worse each year to the point the gunners blame the throwers the throwers blame the gunners (as seen in the post above) everyone at the events listening has heard it. That in itself tells you there is a problem. The biggest issue I see is the whole let it ride out, lets see how far you can throw it, lets see how far out we can get it before we shoot, and all the other statements that have been made and heard. These events are not about how big a flyer those in the field can get (who are there for 20-25 dogs then changed out), but about the dogs who toe the line.
> 
> As Ted and David say the flyer is the most unfair bird and that is simply because it is allowed to be. I have had many discussions and listened in on many more conversations with those who have been at this a lot longer than me. It seems that pretty much all of them would like to see parameters set on the flyer. In this the judges go out mark the spot they want the bird to land just like a dead bird then mark ten yards each direction from there. This gives the flyer a 20 yard area to land, as someone that has thrown and shot a lot of his own flyers I can tell you this can be done. By doing this yes dogs have to mark, they have to decipher through the older falls, but what they do not have to do is use a handle, go out of an event, gut hunt, etc on a bird that is 30 yards farther and deeper than any other. That plain and simple is not fair to the DOG, for them to go out and work the area of all fresh shot birds, feathers, blood, etc that other dogs have had and there bird be nowhere close. IF that is the only way you can get dogs to hunt then the bird placement of the whole test should be revisited. A dog is supposed to honor their nose and work an area, a 20 yard area is plenty to see this.
> 
> ...







With all due respect to the workers and gunners and other comments made here I think Casey has made some very valid points. Thanks for posting Casey. Good to see someone that has been there and done that be the devils advocate here. I was not there and only have one experience attending a National. I also VERY much respect Ed and Teds views and comments and the work done by the people to put on a national but from where I sit and what I hear coming from my computer I think there is some work that could be done to make things more fair to the dogs. Thanks again for posting Casey. For me you just made this whole 5 page thread an actual valid discussion


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

No amount of posting on this or any other forum will change long established policy at any level. With basic rules an organized presentation of a rule change is submitted in writing to the Subcommittee on Rules to the Retriever Advisory Committee for consideration but things such as field trial mechanics are generally not part of Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers. 

A well organized and strongly supported petition to both National Clubs (who act independently) to affect a change in the way live birds are thrown and shot and presented at the Annual Meeting of both the NRC and the NARC would at least begin the discussion in a useful and meaningful way. 

In the past when this issue has arisen I have envisioned the possibility of hiring an appropriate number of professional live bird throwers and shooters to shoot all live birds at Nationals. This would make for long days for those people and it would be necessary to pay them well for 10 +/- days but would provide for more consistentcy especially avoiding shift changes in the guns. 

Anyone who considers this to be a sufficiently serious problem potentially affecting the outcome of the National Championship Stakes should form a committee of interested and experienced people to explore a solution(s) to no bird fliers and proceed with a campaign to lobby and seek support within the clubs who are members of the NRC and the NARC. Then present findings again and again because it is unlikely that change would happen on the first try (if ever.)

Since 1984 when the National Championship Stake is held in the West Central Time Zone every four years I have served as Committee Chairman, Chief Marshal or co-Chief Marshal, or Field Trial Chairman six times. I have competed in both National Championship Stakes in all four time zones, and judged the 2018 NRC. I am not of the opinion that a drastic change of this magnitude is warranted or needed but as the wiseman said, opinions are like “a” holes, everyone has one and I have no shortage of opinions 😉!


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## Casey Adams (Oct 2, 2009)

Ed I understand what you are saying but if the conversation does not start nothing will happen so it appears this forum is as good as any to start the conversation. I also get where you are coming from, but what I find interesting in your post is you state "in the past when this issue has arisen" this tells me this is not the first time this issue has been talked about, as we both already know, the question remains why if an issue continues do we not try something new to better the sport? Continuing down a path just because that's the way it's always been done leads to nothing improving. If we all trained the same way they did in the 1960's, 80s or even ten years ago these dogs would not be as advanced as they are so why don't we update the process and rules just the same as we evolve the sport in other ways? 

I greatly appreciate your opinion on this however we differ our thoughts on it. I know that this issue has been raised with one national committee to the gunners guild itself asking what we can do to cut down on the no birds at the flyer stations, that shows us it is an issue a lot of people recognize. I think the tradition of the Guild is great and want to see it for years to come, so as Mark posted above if they think more consistent bird throwers would help the issue let's try that one factor and see the results then move on from there. Everyone also talks about cost, just think if the no birds were cut to a 1/3 of what they have been averaging what the cost savings is right there in just birds. It may turn out that this is something that will never get addressed and will continue to only be talked about in the shadows, but my opinion is if there is a way to better the sport in regards to fairness to the dogs we owe it to them to try.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

Like almost any unfairness at a trial, the only ones who care are the victims of the unfairness.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Casey Adams said:


> but what I find interesting in your post is you state "in the past when this issue has arisen" this tells me this is not the first time this issue has been talked about


as at almost every National in the last 30 years....😉

I take no issue, it is a worthy discussion which is obviously not new. I can add, from personal experience, that the shooters and throwers are not the only things that contribute to no birds. Too few judges use pheasants in training or at their home field trial and they have a tendency to try to make them a controlled fall which is impossible. There are some basics that are fundamental to avoiding no birds with pheasants. Never throw them at a tree line or a hillside, never into the wind or in a strong crosswind. The area of the fall should be large with more or less uniform cover. To violate any of these things invites a higher than acceptable percentage of no birds. There will always be the uncontrollable factors of lighting and wind changes but at least control what you can control. I also believe that the required use of non toxic shot (steel particularly) contributes to higher than normal numbers of no birds. If you recall last year in Series 8 we had a single hen pheasant flier and a duck flier. The hen was shot out of the test to what we considered a very large area, we put three guns at the station, and we still had 9 no birds which almost cost us enough time to prevent finishing the 9th series that day. 

If I left the impression that I am anti change nothing could be further from the truth. When I was an officer of the NRC we instituted random draw for the starting number and added one day going from 5 to 6 days for the National.

I am all in for anything that makes mechanics and fairness better but I also understand how hard it is to swing the pendulum.


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## wetdog (May 2, 2010)

I would like to chip in a few more observations. Again, I will speak of the 10th series as that was the topic thread, but can apply to others. I was the co-chair for the throwers committee this year (ducking rotten tomatoes). I can tell you we picked the most experienced throwers we had for the 10th. Two of the throwers were professional trainers and two others were amateurs that had thrown a lot of both ducks and pheasants. I truly believe if you had hired throwers you could not have done better with the help. At the start of the series we were given instructions to make the 1st bird (rooster pheasant) a "big booming" throw. We put our biggest arm on that station. I assume the gunners were likewise asked to ride that bird as long as possible, since this was a skyline flyer. They did their job well as most the falls were very long from the gun. From my vantage point, I could mark the falls with a fixed reference point. Some dogs (3-5) got VERY long falls (>60 yards) and smaller number got some very short falls (~30 yards). I can tell you the length of the dog's hunt was directly proportional to the distance the bird fell from the gun. I know you know it Casey, but Deacon got one of those very long falls. Most of the no birds were on the left hand flyer. This bird violated several of Dr Ed's suggestions above. The bird was a hen pheasant thrown directly into a hill and there was a crosswind to it's flight path. The birds were hooking with the wind like deamons. One other thing, as Casey mentioned, throwers were hired for the 2015 NRC in Corning. My memory of that trial was the no bird problem was just as bad. I know one judge was really frustrated and they basically quit calling no birds on flyers if the bird was killed. Honest, I got my number called on a pheasant that went 180 degrees from where the mark was intended. It was the go bird and since my dog marked it well (she loves flyers), it was no problem. I have thrown at Nationals before and as Casey mentioned, with a thrown dead bird, the judges usually demand pretty precise falls, where they generally accept a much bigger area for a flyer to fall in

Anyway, no answers, just observations, but I am leaning to reducing the number of flyers at the National as a partial solution to making marks as fair as possible to the dogs.


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## Casey Adams (Oct 2, 2009)

David,
I appreciate your thoughts and there are some good ones in there. I want to make one thing clear so no one gets offended all of my comments are in regards to the overall issue not one specific series. I am not posting because of the tenth at one national, it is something that has been discussed at every national I have ran and I am basing it off of that. To isolate one series only could be shaken out as just a bad day we all have had them. Instead of focusing on one series let's focus on the overall, like Ed said it has been an issue for 30 years. 

In your post I think you do point to a key factor the let it ride out and throw the hell out of it mentality, while it looks good from the crowd and those behind you, is it fair to the dog is the question? Thats all I am getting at. To be honest Dave 90% of the conversations this year I had on this topic were at the 5th series. What is extremely hard for a dog in my opinion is to have a short flyer at the long gun (take the 5th for example) as the first bird down, then get a no bird on a dead bird station. Come right back get a boomer flyer at a big distance round 2 have the rest go down, then watch the dog hunt the first flyer and the old scent. If the flyer was more controlled this dog still has a chance to dig it out, but if its 30-40 more yards away not very many recover. One pro I spoke too had a great idea, he said have them use a log or brush just as they do to mark the end of the blind that is clearly visible from the line, anything past that is a no bird. I think that is a solid idea. Please don't make it about one series as the tenth series was a nice test.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

wetdog said:


> I would like to chip in a few more observations. Again, I will speak of the 10th series as that was the topic thread, but can apply to others. I was the co-chair for the throwers committee this year (ducking rotten tomatoes). I can tell you we picked the most experienced throwers we had for the 10th. * Two of the throwers were professional trainers and two others were amateurs that had thrown a lot of both ducks and pheasants. I truly believe if you had hired throwers you could not have done better with the help.* At the start of the series we were given instructions to make the 1st bird (rooster pheasant) a "big booming" throw. We put our biggest arm on that station. I assume the gunners were likewise asked to ride that bird as long as possible, since this was a skyline flyer. They did their job well as most the falls were very long from the gun. From my vantage point, I could mark the falls with a fixed reference point. Some dogs (3-5) got VERY long falls (>60 yards) and smaller number got some very short falls (~30 yards). I can tell you the length of the dog's hunt was directly proportional to the distance the bird fell from the gun. I know you know it Casey, but Deacon got one of those very long falls. Most of the no birds were on the left hand flyer. This bird violated several of Dr Ed's suggestions above. The bird was a hen pheasant thrown directly into a hill and there was a crosswind to it's flight path. The birds were hooking with the wind like deamons. One other thing, as Casey mentioned, throwers were hired for the 2015 NRC in Corning. My memory of that trial was the no bird problem was just as bad. I know one judge was really frustrated and they basically quit calling no birds on flyers if the bird was killed. Honest, I got my number called on a pheasant that went 180 degrees from where the mark was intended. It was the go bird and since my dog marked it well (she loves flyers), it was no problem. I have thrown at Nationals before and as Casey mentioned, with a thrown dead bird, the judges usually demand pretty precise falls, where they generally accept a much bigger area for a flyer to fall in
> 
> Anyway, no answers, just observations, but I am leaning to reducing the number of flyers at the National as a partial solution to making marks as fair as possible to the dogs.


Thank you Wetdog for this enlightening post as to the reality behind the scenes. It certainly is a stressful volunteer job, trying to get it right with each bird, much less multiples.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

Curious as to whether anyone thinks using wingers to throw for the gunners would help with consistency on flyers? Just asking, not advocating.


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## bamajeff (May 18, 2015)

J. Marti said:


> Curious as to whether anyone thinks using wingers to throw for the gunners would help with consistency on flyers? Just asking, not advocating.


Not a fan of winger thrown flyers(especially at long distances). The bird comes out of the winger much faster than a human throw. With a flyer, the guns aren't shooting until well over 1/2 the arc. Makes it much more difficult to really mark the bird, IMO. End up with a lot of dogs that flash mark or just catch a small portion of the arc, or worse not see the bird at all. This is compounded when setups are really tight and you can't tell really which station the dog is looking at. I don't like doing anything that limits a dog's ability to see the full arc of the bird.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> Not a fan of winger thrown flyers (especially at long distances). ... I don't like doing anything that limits a dog's ability to see the full arc of the bird.


coach Jeff, in the parlance, that would be the *line drive* of the bird (flyer) from a winger. An abomination for FTs, thankfully done 1-in-500 trials.

MG


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

This is a marketing and branding problem.

If it's called a "guild", it's gotta be too damn old!

Crew, gang, posse, circle........whatever.

A "shooting guild" creates a perception of Monty Python, Holy Grail, knights shooting on, never giving up, as they age!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

bamajeff said:


> Not a fan of winger thrown flyers(especially at long distances). The bird comes out of the winger much faster than a human throw. With a flyer, the guns aren't shooting until well over 1/2 the arc. Makes it much more difficult to really mark the bird, IMO. End up with a lot of dogs that flash mark or just catch a small portion of the arc, or worse not see the bird at all. This is compounded when setups are really tight and you can't tell really which station the dog is looking at. I don't like doing anything that limits a dog's ability to see the full arc of the bird.


Like many things, the dogs get better with practice. 

Although hen pheasants are tough enough to see with a dusky background.

With wingers, the most important thing is that the person who kicks the release incorporates a throwing motion to catch the dog's eye.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

roseberry said:


> A "shooting guild" creates a perception of Monty Python, Holy Grail, knights shooting on, never giving up, as they age!


But they would know the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow, wouldn't they?


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

I remember a big Facebook kerfuffle after the NARC last year on no-birds. It seems people are the most adamant about things they weren't there to see for themselves.

I would imagine that the dogs have gotten so good that these technical tests are required to separate a National Champion from the finalists. The precise placement of birds is required to get the desired effects of suction, memory, marking ability etc. If a bird doesn't fall in such a manner that it creates the desired effect, it may make the test that much harder for a dog. Or unfairly easy for a dog creating a disparity in what the other dogs were shown. A lot to consider for judges for sure. 

Having to ride a flyer that long has to be stomach turning for shooters out there in a national. Usually a no-bird in a HT or weekend trial means the shooters whiffed or just tipped the bird. Big difference between that and not dropping a bird in a hula hoop at 50 yards.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Zach Fisher said:


> Big difference between that and not dropping a bird in a hula hoop at 50 yards.


No sane judge would expect that much consistency from a live bird, particularly a pheasant. Variation in falls within a prescribed area is the random effect of live birds. Judges who demand that kind of consistency will be plagued with no birds and should never use a live bird. It should be noted that each individual dog, unless it has seen a no bird, has not seen the previous 50 fliers only his. Old fall effects are based on scent and may affect the hunt pattern but not where the dog has seen the bird fall. Indeed scent can help hold a dog’s hunt within the area of the fall so long fliers are not the problem, it is the ones that are drastically different that typically cause problems for the dog. Short falls close to the gun tend to be the worst as dogs are not accustomed to finding birds close to the gun and scent from the bird tends to get mixed in with the scent from the flier station. The second most difficult falls are straight back or hard back falls where old scent tends to keep the dog away from those areas unless of course the dog marked the bird. In general unless dogs get short or hard back falls right away they will tend to have an extended hunt. The location of the fall relative to the majority AOF should be noted and given due consideration when evaluating the mark. I am much more forgiving of extensive but sensible hunting on fliers (more so with pheasants than ducks) than extensive hunting on controlled dead birds.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Alas, rose, as I am having a sumptuous T'giving dinner replete with Long Island cheese pumpkin pie anon as prepared by the lone w-o-m-a-n member of this guild, I must take exception to the "ancien regime" tag and Monty Pythonish aura ascribed to it (Ministry of Silly Walks for Dogs By Gunners To Un-Marked Flyers notwithstanding) - and point you instead to a perhaps more redolent tableaux, the Cambridge dons' gluttony fest, a literal swan song if you will, in "Porterhouse Blue" by Tom Sharpe. Mr. Niles Bora may not be in assent, but I am merely suggesting, metaphorically, that no matter how fustian the guild may be, its august members should always be seated at the head table (between standing to shoot flyers, of course) for feasting on the 10th series at the NRC. 

MG



roseberry said:


> This is a marketing and branding problem.
> 
> If it's called a "guild", it's gotta be too damn old!
> 
> ...


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

EdA said:


> No sane judge would expect that much consistency from a live bird, particularly a pheasant. Variation in falls within a prescribed area is the random effect of live birds. .


Hyperbole on my part for effect.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Casey we can just double up the bird count and make sure everyone gets a no bird at every trial. Extra practice so getting a couple at the National is just another normal weekend


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## Karen McCullah (Feb 28, 2007)

captainjack said:


> The Gunner’s are not selected for their shooting skills



Curious, how do you think they are selected, Glen?


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Leddyman said:


> I'm 56 and I don't expect I'll shoot worse in 4 years. What's your point?
> 
> P.S. We don't miss. YET.


God may have a future plan for you that you are not aware of!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

roseberry said:


> God may have a future plan for you that you are not aware of!





Not really a great thing to say to somebody even if there is a smiley face behind it. Im not a real religious man but we all know there is a plan for all of us. At 63 Im sure not the same as I was when I was 20 but in a lot of ways I am better than I was then. But I'll tell you what, if God has a plan for me that I don't agree with he's in for a fight. In fact come to think of it I probably fight with him on a daily basis.


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

We all do things better as we age. Few of those require our best eyesight and athletic coordination.

Fight all you want, father time is undefeated. Don't worry, no one will ask your wife or pharmacist to compare 20 steve to 63 steve.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

roseberry said:


> We all do things better as we age. Few of those require our best eyesight and athletic coordination.
> 
> Fight all you want, father time is undefeated. Don't worry, no one will ask your wife or pharmacist to compare 20 steve to 63 steve.






Now if you would have said father time instead of God in the first place I would not have even responded. As for the wife I got rid of her but I'll keep the pharmacist.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

rose, in the never-heard (by the Gunners Guild) parlance, hold your fire! And tell Mac Jones to keep on flingin'!

MG


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## Nick Toti (Feb 3, 2011)

Zach Fisher said:


> I remember a big Facebook kerfuffle after the NARC last year on no-birds. It seems people are the most adamant about things they weren't there to see for themselves.
> 
> I would imagine that the dogs have gotten so good that these technical tests are required to separate a National Champion from the finalists. The precise placement of birds is required to get the desired effects of suction, memory, marking ability etc. If a bird doesn't fall in such a manner that it creates the desired effect, it may make the test that much harder for a dog. Or unfairly easy for a dog creating a disparity in what the other dogs were shown. A lot to consider for judges for sure.
> 
> Having to ride a flyer that long has to be stomach turning for shooters out there in a national. Usually a no-bird in a HT or weekend trial means the shooters whiffed or just tipped the bird. Big difference between that and not dropping a bird in a hula hoop at 50 yards.


You don't need to be there to read "no-bird". Regardless of if it is due to poor setup by the judges, poor throw by the thrower, or poor shots by the gunner, a no bird is a no bird.


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## Reginald (Apr 18, 2018)

Jerry S. said:


> Is Reginald the Whistleblower?


Certainly, if it means getting people to give honest, open reflection for positive change, then most definitely. And if that means ruffling the feathers of a few people then so be it. The National events are suppose to be our premier events, as stewards of the game it is up to ALL of us to do what is in the best interest of the event/game to make it so. You will never have positive change without having discussions of the negatives. 

For those few people that are wondering, not that it is all that important IMO, I have worked the 2 National events that have been in my area, I do own 2 National finalists both of which are Field Champions. Also I have volunteered at a US Open on 2 occasions as well as a PGA Championship. Volunteering, when possible, is something that we should all do to give back.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Reginald said:


> Certainly, if it means getting people to give honest, open reflection for positive change, then most definitely. And if that means ruffling the feathers of a few people then so be it. The National events are suppose to be our premier events, as stewards of the game it is up to ALL of us to do what is in the best interest of the event/game to make it so. You will never have positive change without having discussions of the negatives.
> 
> For those few people that are wondering, not that it is all that important IMO, I have worked the 2 National events that have been in my area, I do own 2 National finalists both of which are Field Champions. Also I have volunteered at a US Open on 2 occasions as well as a PGA Championship. Volunteering, when possible, is something that we should all do to give back.


Thank you for your efforts volunteering. Without volunteers that give gladly and freely of their time and resources, most dog games would not exist.

When we discuss negative aspects of the sport, we must be very careful not to vilify and castigate the volunteers. The burnout rate in volunteers is very high and no one wants to be the scapegoat. 

Good luck in your endeavors and I will resume duck hunting!


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## Leddyman (Nov 27, 2007)

roseberry said:


> God may have a future plan for you that you are not aware of!


God has had plans my whole life that I wasn't aware of till i got hit in the mouth. Amazing how things fall into place sometimes. I think the odds of them being random are mathematically impossible. I'm pretty sure He doesn't want to mess with my shotgun skills. But one never knows. Yet though He slay me still will I trust Him.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

Reginald said:


> Jerry S. said:
> 
> 
> > Is Reginald the Whistleblower?
> ...


That's all good and fine. How many birds do you shoot a year at trials? That's the only real stat that matters.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

You either actually are a gunner or, you are an occasional shooter.... I was chairing a national breed trial once. I had limited help. I had 2 stakes running. I asked a gunners guild member if he could help me shoot to finish a stake. He said no, it was raining. I went and threw and shot by myself for the last series. It was my fault. I didnt arrange enough help for the specialty trial. I'm not complaining however, I have never once told anyone at a trial I could not help
🙂. Memory like an elephant I have....


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Wish I knew that you needed help I would have volunteered. You put on a great National breed trial. Thank you for stepping up then.


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