# Is It Time To Start Using Something Other Than Ducks



## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

The Hunt Test community needs to rethink the game. With the help from AKC I believe this could be accomplished.
Clubs are not buying the number of ducks required by AKC and reps from AKC come late and would rather comment on decoys or gunner's age, which is good.
Dogs need to retrieve the same mark the previous dog saw and retrieved. 
When you have the last dog in a master test and the water test which is usually the third series, the bird is GARBAGE.
The bird will not even float, it actually sinks. If that is the memory bird, I have problems as the whole game is MARKING.
Why not use Dokkens or Averys which would give the same profile for all dogs and cost the event a whole lot less.
You can still still shoot a shot flyer but the water is a huge issue for me in the HT game.
Any one else agree w me


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## Renee P. (Dec 5, 2010)

Or...the clubs could buy more fresh ducks and not use skanky ones.


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## Raymond Little (Aug 2, 2006)

Nope, not me. Raise entry fees and manage the birds better if poor quality exists. The hunt committee owes it to each competitor to have outstanding birds for ever series. If they can't accomplish the tasks, they should fold the tent.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

Field trials and hunt tests should use real birds.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

I would rather have a sinking real duck than a plastic duck, if you want plastic ducks go run a Super Retreiver Series. I have a better idea THROW THE BIRD ON LAND. Problem solved.


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## Charles C. (Nov 5, 2004)

When trials stop using birds (or even not using flyers), I'll find something else to do. A border collie will chase a ball.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

If I remember right, many years ago an organization decided not to use real birds and cause outrage and members decline because of it. 
We don’t want our clubs to fold……

My penny worth.


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

No definitely do not agree. Are you kidding? 
The only events worth running use birds. 
Some clubs could manage birds better. 
Sinkers happen, thems the breaks.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

No, it is not. Throw the birds on land. Problem solved. 

Also, a lot can be done in bird management to keep good birds for the water marks. Using the poorest birds on blind retrieves is one example of that.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Can't agree more with first 7 posts, Clubs need to be either self monitored or AKC needs to get into action.
Come on Man. 
Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series.
This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ????? Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile. Those old nasty birds sink.
First off why shoot a flyer for a JH dog especially when the gunners can't hit their ass with their left hand.
A crippled mallard is not what a 6 month old dog needs to see, and when it runs off and the judge says the dog needs to get it is beyond my expectations. Senior yes Junior no.
I think I will now start passing JH and train to SH, since many of these judges are setting up tests to this level.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Just Say No!


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

mitty said:


> Or...the clubs could buy more fresh ducks and not use skanky ones.


This seems like a reasonable solution to me. I haven't noticed that issue in our field trials out west.


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Terry Marshall, you have been defending the rubber duck pretty vigorously. A financial interest by chance?


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Disagree with that too. 
You enter a test where the club puts on a crappy trial, whether in getting bottom of the barrel judges, poor bird boys, poor birds, or anything else that doesn't lend for a fun weekend and you vote with your feet by not running the test/trial. 

No need for big brother to get involved.

Edit: and aren't you a pro? Why would you ever bring a dog to an AKC hunt test hoping not to get a cripple because you know your dogs can't handle it?

Train the dog (for sinkers and cripples), then come to the test.


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## Dave Farrar (Mar 16, 2012)

Breck said:


> No definitely do not agree. Are you kidding?
> The only events worth running use birds.
> Some clubs could manage birds better.
> Sinkers happen, thems the breaks.


Sometimes sinkers are preferred over floaters. Wait, never mind. Wrong thread...


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Dave Farrar said:


> Sometimes sinkers are preferred over floaters. Wait, never mind. Wrong thread...


 I don’t know what your reason was in your post whether it is hidden or a joke amongst your circles, but an idea can be disastrous to those uniformed about our sport.

Also please understand that our sport is or are always under a microscope to the public and this is a public internet for all to read.


Just saying…..


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## Buncoboy (Feb 3, 2015)

Terry Marshall said:


> Can't agree more with first 7 posts, Clubs need to be either self monitored or AKC needs to get into action.
> Come on Man.
> Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series.
> This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ????? Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile. Those old nasty birds sink.
> ...


My house cat would love to take the pressure off by our dogs retrieving cats thrown by wingers. Flying kitty's would make the best retrievers lose a life time of steadiness and really have to earn their titles. Opps, sorry, guess the cats would sink in water too!


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## Tony Marshall (May 15, 2013)

The last few events that I have been to have been using a chamois to dry off the birds on the rack. They have a bb hanging and drying and from what I have been seeing it seems to make all the difference.


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## moscowitz (Nov 17, 2004)

Don't do junior. Train for senior or master problem solved.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

To play with plastic is to play right into the hands of the "anti's", they certainly not being supporters of our dog games and the field sports (huntng) that so many of us and our dogs live for. It is obvious from the replies that the very thought of plastic birds is repulsive on many levels to those of us within the retriever community.

Just say an emphatic NO to plastic birds.

Cheers,
Irishwhistler


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Sounds like you need to give some of these clubs the benefit of your skill and expertise and help out so they don't have to deal with things like cripples, wet birds, etc.

You know there is going to be a flyer, and you should know it might be a cripple, so perhaps the thing to do is make sure the dog has all the necessary skills before running rather than see how young they can pass if everything goes right. The first flyer my dog saw in JH was a cripple, and he took it as a personal challenge, so I don't have a lot of sympathy?



Terry Marshall said:


> Can't agree more with first 7 posts, Clubs need to be either self monitored or AKC needs to get into action.
> Come on Man.
> Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series.
> This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ????? Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile. Those old nasty birds sink.
> ...


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

So you're a so called pro belly aching on the Internet about a junior test? You're a real piece of work. 
Clients must be lining up to put a dog with you. 
. 
Me, a young dog faced with a nicked duck, I want to see him chase that diver (if puppy dives after it wow) or follow that runner into cover. This is time you want to see perseverance from a puppy. 



Terry Marshall said:


> Can't agree more with first 7 posts, Clubs need to be either self monitored or AKC needs to get into action.
> Come on Man.
> Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series.
> This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ????? Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile. Those old nasty birds sink.
> ...


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## cripes (Aug 14, 2011)

Irishwhistler said:


> To play with plastic is to play right into the hands of the "anti's", they certainly not being supporters of our dog games and the field sports (huntng) that so many of us and our dogs live for. It is obvious from the replies that the very thought of plastic birds is repulsive on many levels to those of us within the retriever community.
> 
> Just say an emphatic NO to plastic birds.
> 
> ...


The idea of mass killing birds in a box with auto exhaust gas is repulsive to some people.


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

Charles C. said:


> When trials stop using birds (or even not using flyers), I'll find something else to do. A border collie will chase a ball.


How do you test desire and birdiness without real birds? We've all seen dogs that wouldn't chase down a cripple to save their lives and would rather have anything in their mouth but a bird. Without birds it would be just an obedience trial on steroids.

M


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## Tom Lehr (Sep 11, 2008)

Do we need to stop using birds??? Absolutely not!!!!! 

Do clubs need to do a better job of providing the judges with birds that will float for ALL of the contestants.......You bet!!!! 

As a Judge I like to throw a bird in the water once in a while and watch all of the dogs hunt on the land.....sometimes a good test of marking.

If clubs are not going to shoot a second flyer than at least dispatch enough birds to make the water test fair for all. This is something that my wife and I are changing for our club's test which I hope catches on with other clubs.


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

AKC rep told me last year that the biggest complaint they get is the condition of the ducks used in tests. And yes, he did check live duck numbers before test started.
If a dog can't handle a crippled duck they shouldn't be running.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Terry Marshall said:


> The Hunt Test community needs to rethink the game. With the help from AKC I believe this could be accomplished.
> Clubs are not buying the number of ducks required by AKC and reps from AKC come late and would rather comment on decoys or gunner's age, which is good.
> Dogs need to retrieve the same mark the previous dog saw and retrieved.
> When you have the last dog in a master test and the water test which is usually the third series, the bird is GARBAGE.
> ...







Are you out of your mind?????????????? Sounds to me like the problem is the club not the birds


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't agree with plastic. But if we get an expected increase from EE. The entry fees will probably reach $100 per test. I imagine a good part of that is for ducks. I druther pay a little more for good ducks. But it's getting so expensive. I may have to go back to work.

One cost cutting suggestion would be to stop using flyers in the lower stakes. I can remember when we used dead pigeons for junior stakes.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Thomas D said:


> AKC rep told me last year that the biggest complaint they get is the condition of the ducks used in tests. And yes, he did check live duck numbers before test started.
> If a dog can't handle a crippled duck they shouldn't be running.


Did he/she also count live duck numbers after the test?

Can have 5 live ducks per entry prior and won't help the situation if they are still live after.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> I don't agree with plastic. But if we get an expected increase from EE. The entry fees will probably reach $100 per test. I imagine a good part of that is for ducks. I druther pay a little more for good ducks. But it's getting so expensive. I may have to go back to work.
> 
> One cost cutting suggestion would be to stop using flyers in the lower stakes. I can remember when we used dead pigeons
> for junior stakes.


You have to kill live birds to get dead ones. Don't see how no having a flyer is a solution.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

What a crazy idea! Hunting dogs using plastic birds in the tests, trials? Doesn't make sense. You must have had nothing to do when you thought that one up to post!!!

Here is something you may want to investigate when training YOUR dogs. 

http://www.xproducts.com/ar-15-soda-can-launcher-accessories-launcher


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## Goose Man (Aug 26, 2013)

Well a fact was not mentioned in the first post. It rained 2 inches starting at daylight on Sunday and continued till noon.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I think Junior dogs are entitled to flyers as that is part of what a started dog should do is be accomplished at flyers. There are people that show up at junior with a dog that has never seen a flyer or even a bird. Either train better, buy more birds for training, or concentrate on senior tests but don't ruin the sport for the rest of us because your dogs don't do cripples or fetch bad birds. I have no desire to run HUNT tests or trials with rubber ducks


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## swliszka (Apr 17, 2011)

No wonder we have millennial kids who are so "entitled!" They come out of the same folks who want Hunt Tests to be perfectly identical with all factors statistically equal. Wake up, that is why you have judges to evaluate and measure the variables for each animal. Imperfect , yes , but so is life. Get over it...


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Glen, You can reuse the dead birds and not as many are needed as opposed to one flyer for every dog.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Goose Man said:


> Well a fact was not mentioned in the first post. It rained 2 inches starting at daylight on Sunday and continued till noon.


You don't hunt in the rain?


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I introduce my dogs to a wing clipped duck that can still walk/run that simulates a cripple. In my one and only derby the dog before me would not pick up a cripple. A pro was running and wanted to argue with the judge about the rules saying dead bird. I thought that was strange. He was dropped.


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

I think the rain comment was in regard to the ducks getting sloppy.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Wow!!! Not a good idea!! I'll address your complaints as stated.

Bird management is important. That doesn't mean you have to kill more birds, Birds thrown on land don't sink (thanks for pointing that out Glenn). Drying the birds makes a huge difference. If you haven't sat at the line & dried birds, you have no idea what you are asking. It is a filthy job & I have seen several bird boys threaten to quit when asked to do that job. Most clubs don't have a club member willing to do it either. Maybe Terry will volunteer. Junior should get the best birds. 

Some bird issues are beyond the clubs control. Sometimes birds are delivered that may not be fully feathered. As feed prices skyrocketed a few years ago, economics made it imperative to ship birds as fast as possible. Young birds were the norm. Those birds didn't come through the weekend in good shape. Has one test where the individual that was going to crate ducks didn't show. Birds were corralled in the covered catch area. A rain storm hit that night and the catch pen flooded. A few hundred ducks in a small, muddy area covered in an inch of water and their own excrement. The same 3 individuals who caught and crated the nasty critters then had to wash the ducks. Those same folks spent the next 2 days fielding complaints about the condition of the birds. 

IMHO a dog that won't engage & retrieve a lively cripple is worthless in the duck blind. I can easily walk out & pickup the dead birds. Need a dog to chase down the others. My position is supported in the rule book and "blinking" is listed as a major fault.


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## NateB (Sep 25, 2003)

My first dog that titled MHR in NAHRA and MH in AKC, was one pass away from the GMHR title in NAHRA. I quit running because of "rubbergate" as it was called back then. Pheasants can work as flyers but they do not re-use very well. Hopefully the avian flu will not return this year like last year and we will not have the restrictions on interstate travel of birds. I also wonder if ducks can be vaccinated with the vaccine they have for chickens, and if vaccinated will they be allowed to travel. Need to ask a producer about that.

Maybe I should get into the duck producing business and provide for all the clubs in Ohio,....... not.
We need to find more options for obtaining ducks if the restrictions return next year. Perhaps that should be the discussion vs using rubber ducks.


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## Irishwhistler (Sep 8, 2013)

cripes said:


> The idea of mass killing birds in a box with auto exhaust gas is repulsive to some people.


So is eating meat, medical research using animal models, training with e-collars, hunting, fishing, and farming, largely by the same lot. Nobody having such repulsion is forced to participate in HT's or FT's which they likely find offensive as welll.

Irishwhistler


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## Zach Fisher (Jan 16, 2015)

What about a duck that stinks so bad it causes a gag reflex in by standers?


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## Mark Littlejohn (Jun 16, 2006)

With its ignorance and bad attempts at humor, I'd suggest this thread disappear. 
Its an public internet forum folks, for all the world to read. Pull your heads out.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Wayne Nutt said:


> Glen, You can reuse the dead birds and not as many are needed as opposed to one flyer for every dog.


But where do the dead birds come from?

If a club is gassing birds to start a test, they could be shooting those birds (some) as flyers. Start with less dead birds and then work the shot flyers into the rotation. 

Use the worst birds on blinds saving the best for water.

Throw birds on land where possible.


Beyond bird management, I'd like to train with these folks that have dogs that never see skanky, sinking birds. I can't give my dogs fresh plumpy birds every day, so they get accustom to the nasty birds.


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## cripes (Aug 14, 2011)

Mark Littlejohn said:


> With its ignorance and bad attempts at humor, I'd suggest this thread disappear.
> Its an public internet forum folks, for all the world to read. Pull your heads out.




If everything is so wonderful in the field trial world , what is there to hide? With Your post I know, that you know something smells.


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## rboudet (Jun 29, 2004)

cripes said:


> If everything is so wonderful in the field trial world , what is there to hide? With Your post I know, that you know something smells.


Please enlighten us what you think smells?


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Webster's definition of *Retriever*; one that retrieves; especially : a dog of any of several breeds having a heavy water-resistant coat and used especially for retrieving *GAME*.

Webster Definition of *GAME* (1) : animals under pursuit or taken in hunting; especially : wild animals hunted for sport or food

Sure Doesn't say anything about* GAME*- being Plastic 

*Retriever* hunt test- *Retriever* Field Trial; both designed to test, a *Retriever* and it's ability to retrieve *GAME*, accumulating in producing better stock of dogs that are in fact inherently *Retrievers* (refer to Websters definition).


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## Chris Richards (Feb 25, 2005)

Terry Marshall said:


> Can't agree more with first 7 posts, Clubs need to be either self monitored or AKC needs to get into action.
> Come on Man.
> Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series.
> This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ????? Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile. Those old nasty birds sink.
> ...


WOW!

Publically bash the AKC rep, club hosting the event, club workers, volunteer shooters, and volunteer judges in one post. 

This might be a RTF RECORD!


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Where did he bash AKC rep?


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## Chris Richards (Feb 25, 2005)

Terry Marshall said:


> The Hunt Test community needs to rethink the game. With the help from AKC I believe this could be accomplished.
> Clubs are not buying the number of ducks required by AKC and reps from AKC come late and would rather comment on decoys or gunner's age, which is good.
> Dogs need to retrieve the same mark the previous dog saw and retrieved.
> When you have the last dog in a master test and the water test which is usually the third series, the bird is GARBAGE.
> ...


Sorry for my error. The AKC rep part was in the original post of the thread. So, it took two post in the same thread to get them all. There is room for a new leader!


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## LabskeBill (Nov 12, 2012)

Terry Marshall said:


> The Hunt Test community needs to rethink the game. With the help from AKC I believe this could be accomplished.
> Clubs are not buying the number of ducks required by AKC and reps from AKC come late and would rather comment on decoys or gunner's age, which is good.
> Dogs need to retrieve the same mark the previous dog saw and retrieved.
> When you have the last dog in a master test and the water test which is usually the third series, the bird is GARBAGE.
> ...


.In response to a big cry baby:

"Dogs need to retrieve the same mark the previous dog saw and retrieved. "
*Read the rule book. No where does it say they must be the same!*

"When you have the last dog in a master test and the water test which is usually the third series, the bird is GARBAGE. " 
*Second series and by the way it rained all night. Why did you not say that in your whine?*



"Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series."
*Again because it rained and other lands were inaccessible*

"This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ?????" 

*Where does the rule say land before water?*

"Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile.First off why shoot a flyer for a JH dog especially when the gunners can't hit their ass with their left hand."

*Again because it rained and other lands were inaccessible*


Why the $*&& not shoot a flyer for the juniors? they are hunting dogs and I am sure the average age is well above 6 months. If the dog is not ready, do not rip off your customer, leave the not-trained dog at home!

"*A crippled mallard is not what a 6 month old dog needs to see, and when it runs off and the judge says the dog needs to get it is beyond my expectations."*

*Maybe you should rethink your profession: change to something you understand!*
*Finally, do not ever set up in your ivory tower and criticize my(our) wonderful club members and volunteers who are working their butts off so you can destroy lands, whine about your failures and then go public showing your ass.*

*How about you never come back to the SOONER RETRIEVER CLUB if you are going to disrespect us!*

Bill Blochowiak,
President
Committee member
and land owner


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## SamLab1 (Jul 24, 2003)

Well said Bill....all of it! We were at the test, running Master and Senior. The club did a great job working through the storms and the judges still put on nice tests in difficult circumstances, adjusting land, parking, etc. to complete the tests. We enjoyed running it and the club members were friendly and did a super job.

Thanks for volunteering your expertise, time and land so we can all play these games. 

Since Terry took the guise of plastic ducks to complain about the tests, AKC, the club, the workers and the judges, I'm sure he is a club member somewhere and helps them with his vast knowledge. BTW...A test was canceled in Terry's area the same weekend for lack of working members.

Bob Neipert


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## SueLab (Jul 27, 2003)

Just a couple of thoughts:

Rubber ducks? How about spending some of that training income to introduce junior dogs to both dead and live ducks. If a junior dog will not pick up a duck, the trainer did not do his job or the dog is immature and should not be at the HT.

Clubs don't order enough birds: I have found this to be true to participants who are clueless.

Ducks are wet and sink: yes they get wet and yes they DO NOT float like they have been injected with insulation...

And finally: we have all been guilty of complaining, many of us recognize that an apology is in order and follow through with that apology. BUT most of us would never criticize EVERYONE who is involved in providing an event. You have proven that you are a bigger jerk that 99.99% of the participants. A very public apology is in order along with a reflection on whether this occupation is really for you ( the HT community certainly can do without your negativity). 

Perhaps YOU should plan to host two HTs every year or at least contribute in a real way (paying entry fees are not the ticket, we all do that). If you cannot do that, then, perhaps keeping ones mouth shut would suffice...

Regards,
A Sooner HT participant who knows that each and everyone worked hard, their test was well managed and the club deserves a big "Thanks".
Nancy Neipert
aka suelab


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## todd walker (Mar 2, 2009)

GOOD JOB TERRY...FISH ON.....6 pages so far.....Only dog training have FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

captainjack said:


> No, it is not. Throw the birds on land. Problem solved. That is not a problem solved. Have you EVER hunted? Birds fall on water in many hunting scenarios. Dogs need to be prepared for and tested on a bird in the water. Would you next propose that we not throw birds in cover?
> 
> Also, a lot can be done in bird management to keep good birds for the water marks. Using the poorest birds on blind retrieves is one example of that. Agreed


I agree with the sentiments of other posters as to the need for real ducks to test our dogs. 

RUBBER DUCKS? Not no but HELL NO!!!

I believe better bird management is to be encouraged. A sinking duck is not a fair test. I have never shot a duck that fell into the water and had no buoyancy and fluff.
I believe if the judge is going to throw a bird in the water that that they should have birds that haven't been previously used in a water series


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## Wyldfire (Sep 24, 2003)

Think if I was a pro I'd keep off my key board and train more. Not bring attention to my pass rate. I'm sure all are waiting for Sooner to post results so they can see what the big bitch was. 

If you didn't notice sitting in your truck it was RAINING all birds were wet even the flyers that your dog only likes very dead. While you were in your nice dry hotel the judges and the club were standing in the dark in the rain and lighting trying to load the equipment and adjust the tests so everybody could play with their dog. Master and Junior worked togather to split the one piece of water that had parking that contestants could get to with out getting stuck. I was so impressed with the Master B pros. Even though they had to walk about a 1/2 mile into the second series they didn't complain and most brought 2 or more dogs at a time to save time and keep the test running. That is pure class.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Terry Marshall said:


> The Hunt Test community needs to rethink the game. With the help from AKC I believe this could be accomplished.
> Clubs are not buying the number of ducks required by AKC and reps from AKC come late and would rather comment on decoys or gunner's age, which is good.
> Dogs need to retrieve the same mark the previous dog saw and retrieved.
> When you have the last dog in a master test and the water test which is usually the third series, the bird is GARBAGE.
> ...





Doesn't appear ANYONE does...


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## T. Mac (Feb 2, 2004)

Using cats just never caught on:
http://www.gamesloon.com/free-action-1/shooting-gallery-games-276/clay-kitten-shooting-29745.html


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## Kyle Garris (Oct 27, 2005)

Terry Marshall said:


> Can't agree more with first 7 posts, Clubs need to be either self monitored or AKC needs to get into action.
> Come on Man.
> Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series.
> This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ????? Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile. Those old nasty birds sink.
> ...


So, I'm guessing your dog didn't pass?


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## T-bone (Jul 15, 2009)

When I first started this game I didn't want to touch a duck and would've been happy with plastic.

Now that I know the drill and what dogs are capable of I can't imagine not using real birds! Sinkers, stinkers or perfect birds my dogs better pick 'em all up whatever level they're running. Uh, aren't we technically simulating hunting?

As for the gunners who apparently can't hit "their ass with their left hand" - at least they're out there volunteering and not sitting back complaining!


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Another brilliant post from Mr Marshall


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## Migillicutty (Jan 11, 2014)

Well........


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## LabskeBill (Nov 12, 2012)

Wyldfire said:


> Think if I was a pro I'd keep off my key board and train more. Not bring attention to my pass rate. I'm sure all are waiting for Sooner to post results so they can see what the big bitch was.
> 
> If you didn't notice sitting in your truck it was RAINING all birds were wet even the flyers that your dog only likes very dead. While you were in your nice dry hotel the judges and the club were standing in the dark in the rain and lighting trying to load the equipment and adjust the tests so everybody could play with their dog. Master and Junior worked togather to split the one piece of water that had parking that contestants could get to with out getting stuck. I was so impressed with the Master B pros. Even though they had to walk about a 1/2 mile into the second series they didn't complain and most brought 2 or more dogs at a time to save time and keep the test running. That is pure class.



Thanks you
BillB


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Real birds. Always.

Maybe someone needs to come up with the 'inflate-a-insert' for ducks. hahahaha  No matter how skanky, slimy, or chewed up, that bird WILL float. LOL!


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Tobias said:


> Real birds. Always.
> 
> Maybe someone needs to come up with the 'inflate-a-insert' for ducks. hahahaha  No matter how skanky, slimy, or chewed up, that bird WILL float. LOL!


We have it... Canned insulation


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Tobias said:


> Real birds. Always.
> 
> Maybe someone needs to come up with the 'inflate-a-insert' for ducks. hahahaha  No matter how skanky, slimy, or chewed up, that bird WILL float. LOL!


Don't look now but a dokken is in your dog's mouth in your avatar...lol


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## jacduck (Aug 17, 2011)

Having just seen a HT cancelled because the use of live and or dead (frozen) birds were not going to be allowed in Ohio our problem is getting larger than opinions about Q & Q of birds. Aside from that Terry M said each dog should be seeing the same mark to be fair. I just ran a test recently where my pup was a late # and the line to all birds was so worn down that I felt it was not totally fair. I accepted the ribbon however since they are dogs after all and maybe a highway means nothing as does drag back scent.

Quiet at our house, wife is off visiting the new Great-grandson in WI.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

fishduck said:


> Wow!!! Not a good idea!! I'll address your complaints as stated.
> 
> Bird management is important. That doesn't mean you have to kill more birds, Birds thrown on land don't sink (thanks for pointing that out Glenn). Drying the birds makes a huge difference. If you haven't sat at the line & dried birds, you have no idea what you are asking. It is a filthy job & I have seen several bird boys threaten to quit when asked to do that job. Most clubs don't have a club member willing to do it either. Maybe Terry will volunteer. Junior should get the best birds.
> 
> ...


Good post. Pretty much life in the real world. Whiners, bad weather and duck poop.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

TonyK said:


> I was told to read this thread for a good laugh. Man, you are dumb. And training dogs for other people? Holy cow, I guess you didn't pass! You should try another profession. If you stay in this one, consider helping a club put on a test and maybe shoot flyers so contestants can laugh at you when you miss. Dang this is one dumb thread you started...
> 
> Thank you to every person who has spent their weekend judging, shooting, throwing birds, making lunches, marshaling, processing entries, entering results, catching flyers, sorting birds, culling dead birds, picking up trash, moving equipment, cooking dinner, ordering ribbons, ordering judges gifts, arranging motel stays, making sure workers are fed, arranging bird boys, taking care of bird boys, and the host of other duties I didn't mention. Whether for field trials or hunt tests, the duties are endless and I appreciate everyone that I see working on the weekends. It's hard work and we are all volunteers making an event happen for the benefit of our fellow competitors. If you ever want to complain about how an event runs, you first need to make dang sure that you are a volunteer at a few events each year. And if you do want to complain, you damn well better not be a low life coward hiding behind a keyboard posting to a forum on the internet. Take up your issues with someone face to face, especially if you want to call out an AKC rep then you owe it to that person to speak with them directly.
> 
> ...


Another good post. If you don't do all those things and more, then....STFU about those that do.


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## Good Dogs (Nov 1, 2005)

Used to do a bit of ocean sail-boat racing. Worse job is galley duty. No one likes being below and cooking/cleaning/hanging on when your gut and the boat are going in different directions. Rule #1 - First one to complain about the food got the next shift galley duty. In other words, you complain about something, take ownership or STF up. 
But I do want to chime in on the issue of shot flyers in junior stakes - come on man. These are supposed to be hunting retrievers. "A dog that follows and retrieves a cripple is of great value." IMO a dog that can't handle a freshly shot or winged bird is worse than no value and does not belong in the field. The too often repeated trope that junior dogs should not have to deal with shot flyers is not just wrong, it's an insult to our sport and to the dogs. Or, in the words of my very good and departed friend, Col Carl Knock, "Train, don't complain."


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

freezeland said:


> Don't look now but a dokken is in your dog's mouth in your avatar...lol


8 weeks old and had been home less than two days.. Is this better? 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A9HzgipWcjA


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

As mentioned early on I do not agree with using plastic. But you'll do know there is another venue out there that uses ducks but no fliers. From that venue comes some top notch dogs. That venue is HRC. Believe me they learn how to chase a cripple when hunting.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Wayne Nutt said:


> As mentioned early on I do not agree with using plastic. But you'll do know there is another venue out there that uses ducks but no fliers. From that venue comes some top notch dogs. That venue is HRC. Believe me they learn how to chase a cripple when hunting.


Wayne that venue does and can use live flyers, we have used them for 2 years in finished, next years test hopefully will have a flyer in Seasoned and Started. If we are going to promote "hunting" dogs they had better be willing and able to deal with a live bird at any level. CORRECT????????


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## Wayne Nutt (Jan 10, 2010)

Todd, No flyers down here in hrc.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

My original point was to create a discussion on ducks versus dokkens, and that it did. WOW 
With PETA and the bird flue having an influence on our game, plus the cost of ducks to the clubs, an open mind needs to realize that the game will change.
Prone as i am to using real birds, and I have a bird pen, most junior handlers don't, that was my point. If the organization wants more junior dogs on the line with amateur handlers then kill the flyer or just use dead ducks. For those keeping score we had 3 out of 4 each day.
And I apologize for offending any of the workers, members, judges, and especially Bill, my post was not to be specific to a test but just to use data in my mind at that time. I had a great time, thanks for all that you do.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Terry Marshall said:


> My original point was to create a discussion on ducks versus dokkens, and that it did. WOW
> With PETA and the bird flue having an influence on our game, plus the cost of ducks to the clubs, an open mind needs to realize that the game will change.
> Prone as i am to using real birds, and I have a bird pen, most junior handlers don't, that was my point. If the organization wants more junior dogs on the line with amateur handlers then kill the flyer or just use dead ducks. For those keeping score we had 3 out of 4 each day.
> And I apologize for offending any of the workers, members, judges, and especially Bill, my post was not to be specific to a test but just to use data in my mind at that time. I had a great time, thanks for all that you do.


 Damn Terry,
Nice try.
I am beginning to wonder if self-interest was what was behind the mask…

At any rate, you do have some brass ones.
Lord have mercy. LOL


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## huntinman (Jun 1, 2009)

Peta only has an influence to the extent allowed by idiots within the game broadcasting issues better kept inhouse.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

BJGatley said:


> At any rate, you do have some brass ones.



He does, doesn't he?


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

Ted Shih said:


> He does, doesn't he?


Yes... and I am sure Terry won't disappoint us in his next thread or post to be.


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## freezeland (Nov 1, 2012)

Tobias said:


> 8 weeks old and had been home less than two days.. Is this better?
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A9HzgipWcjA


You need to realize when folks are razzing you around here............


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Bird management is key in order to have QUALITY tests.

When participants and competitors are routinely spending over $80/ dog in entry fees, the clubs *SHOULD* be using a flyer in each series. Both clubs that I belong to shoot 2 flyers for all stakes at AKC tests and trials. One also puts on HRC hunts and we encourage the judges to shoot flyers there, as well. 

Those birds need to be taken care of all day. once you have 20 hanging on the dryer, the first dozen need to be bagged and the bags twisted tight to keep the flies off them. In the water series, they should also be wiped down with a shammy before hanging. This is key to having good birds all day. At the end of the day, those birds need to be triaged and hung in a cool, dry place with enough fans on them to keep flies off and dry them completely. The morning of the second (or third) day, those birds you hung the night before need to be sorted. Some are fit for marks, some are fit only for blinds and some will need to be discarded.

Glen is absolutely right. When I judge, I actively seek areas to throw memory birds with difficulty appropriate to the stake I'm judging where they can't sink, and either put them on land or in inches deep water.

You want to have your dog retrieve plastic in competition? There's a game that does that. Leave the HT's and FT's alone.-Paul


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Todd Caswell said:


> Wayne that venue does and can use live flyers, we have used them for 2 years in finished, next years test hopefully will have a flyer in Seasoned and Started. If we are going to promote "hunting" dogs they had better be willing and able to deal with a live bird at any level. CORRECT????????


I totally agree with your sentiment that hunting dogs should be able to handle live birds. But by rule flyers are not allowed in Started.


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

fishduck said:


> I totally agree with your sentiment that hunting dogs should be able to handle live birds. But by rule flyers are not allowed in Started.



There is a current rule change proposal to change that. Clubs will have the opportunity to vote on that through their President or Proxy this year. I hope it passes.-Paul


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

I would bet it doesn't pass.


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## Dave Burton (Mar 22, 2006)

If I get a pup and it won't chase a cripple someone will get a well bred pet soon. I have raised 19 pups in the last 10 years and every single one of them would retrieve a drake mallard with its flight feathers pulled out of one wing at 9 weeks old. I have been to HT's and seen SH and even a MH dog blink a cripple a time or two. Lack of training/exposure is the issue I believe.


Terry Marshall said:


> Can't agree more with first 7 posts, Clubs need to be either self monitored or AKC needs to get into action.
> Come on Man.
> Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series.
> This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ????? Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile. Those old nasty birds sink.
> ...


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

Thomas D said:


> I would bet it doesn't pass.



It should; it doesn't mean you have to have fliers in Started, only that you CAN.-Paul


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Dave Burton said:


> If I get a pup and it won't chase a cripple someone will get a well bred pet soon. I have raised 19 pups in the last 10 years and every single one of them would retrieve a drake mallard with its flight feathers pulled out of one wing at 9 weeks old. I have been to HT's and seen SH and even a MH dog blink a cripple a time or two. Lack of training/exposure is the issue I believe.


^^^^ This. Same for me. And when I raise a litter, they are on wing clipped quail, loose in a fenced six acre field, at five weeks.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> Prone as i am to using real birds, and I have a bird pen, most junior handlers don't, that was my point. If the organization wants more junior dogs on the line with amateur handlers then kill the flyer or just use dead ducks.


We have a lot of owners that run their own dogs in Junior. Pros in junior were very few until recently. In order to get dogs on birds, the owners join clubs, attend training groups, or use pros that help them handle their own dogs instead of having a pro run them. 

Ever notice the people who whine the most and want to change the rules that have been in place for decades, are the ones who can't train their dogs to those standards? 
There is a reason for flyers in junior. The last thing we want is rubber ducks along with some very bad advice.


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## Troy Tilleraas (Sep 24, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> Wayne that venue does and can use live flyers, we have used them for 2 years in finished, next years test hopefully will have a flyer in Seasoned and Started. If we are going to promote "hunting" dogs they had better be willing and able to deal with a live bird at any level. CORRECT????????


I was at 7 HRC tests this past summer and only 1 used a flier in finished... Thanks Todd! Finished,Master, Master Hunter Retriever-best all pick up fliers IMO.


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Troy Tilleraas said:


> I was at 7 HRC tests this past summer and only 1 used a flier in finished... Thanks Todd! Finished,Master, Master Hunter Retriever-best all pick up fliers IMO.


Your welcome Troy Glad you liked it, the hard part is convincing the judges, but we have enough of our own club members that judge our test that I think if it passes we will have a flyer at least one day at each stake next year..


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## hillsidegoldens (Mar 28, 2009)

I have run 3 Junior test this year all have had great birds and all have had a flier. That is always a big concern in a junior test. Without a flier most of the time junior my be useless.


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## BJGatley (Dec 31, 2011)

I would think that we would want to give the first time handlers (team) in our sport our best foot forward.
WE want them to walk away pass or fail to enjoy the experiences in our sport. 
We want to help them and guide them in their goals and have them walk away with expectations (homework) with enthusiasm giving them something to work on for their next event, if they so choose and giving them something to think about. 
My penny worth. 

Edit: Caveat…there are those pros who have an genuine interest to help and there are those whose main focus is to seek fault in others.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

ErinsEdge said:


> We have a lot of owners that run their own dogs in Junior. Pros in junior were very few until recently. In order to get dogs on birds, the owners join clubs, attend training groups, or use pros that help them handle their own dogs instead of having a pro run them.
> 
> Ever notice the people who whine the most and want to change the rules that have been in place for decades, are the ones who can't train their dogs to those standards?
> There is a reason for flyers in junior. The last thing we want is rubber ducks along with some very bad advice.


thought about it and decided to go to bed, still want the dance.


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## cakaiser (Jul 12, 2007)

Terry Marshall said:


> thought about it and decided to go to bed, still want the dance.


Good thing you went to bed. Cause...that was Kim, you wanted to dance with. Not Nancy...Too funny.


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

BJGatley said:


> I would think that we would want to give the first time handlers (team) in our sport our best foot forward.
> WE want them to walk away pass or fail to enjoy the experiences in our sport.
> We want to help them and guide them in their goals and have them walk away with expectations (homework) with enthusiasm giving them something to work on for their next event, if they so choose and giving them something to think about.
> My penny worth.
> ...


I agree. Everyone has a first time and the more enjoyable the experience the more likely folks are to come to the line again.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

cakaiser said:


> Good thing you went to bed. Cause...that was Kim, you wanted to dance with. Not Nancy...Too funny.


Assuming Kim is a female, I now have 3 on my dance card including you Charlotte, I hope you all can do the Texas Two Step, might be a hard sell.


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## Hunt'EmUp (Sep 30, 2010)

Todd Caswell said:


> Your welcome Troy Glad you liked it, the hard part is convincing the judges, but we have enough of our own club members that judge our test that I think if it passes we will have a flyer at least one day at each stake next year..


This is what our club hopes as well, it should make it easier to get some AKC people out to our tests. Flyers are a big selling point for handlers who may not be able to shoot them in training, this added to the fact that HRC doesn't have callbacks, will enable handlers to get some experience for their young dogs, before they go hunting, or end up throwing $65+ on a JH test where they might only see one bird. Might even set the HRC hook for more HRC events. All the rule change does is change "cannot" to "can", at club discretion. Doesn't hurt the clubs who don't want to use them, just provides the option to those clubs who using flyer might help. It also recommends that if a club chooses to use them that they put it in their premium, so everyone knows what to train on. It's really hard for the western HRC clubs to compete with AKC. No flyers in is our #1 complaint from handlers, and started handlers whine significantly more than seasoned or finished . The ability to have flyers in all levels would help us, and won't hurt anyone who doesn't want to use them. So really no downside. Still Flyers in the HRC Gasp!! What will everyone have to grumble about in the HRC vs. AKC threads. Might as well have AKC start shouldering a real-line gun instead of a stick (or wait, last judges seminar I was at, clubs are already supposed to be doing that)


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## Swampcollie (Jan 16, 2003)

Terry Marshall said:


> Can't agree more with first 7 posts, Clubs need to be either self monitored or AKC needs to get into action.
> Come on Man.
> Ran a junior test that the judges decided to run water first and then shoot a flyer on the 2nd land series.
> This was on Sunday so the water series had to get ducks previously killed, then they went to land to shoot a flyer ????? Duh, I would want those clean killed ducks for the water test, shoot them on the land, if thats what you have to do, and use them while still fluffy on the water, so that they have water profile. Those old nasty birds sink.
> ...


The quality of birds at AKC Tests and Trials has been a large concern for the AKC for the last few years. They don't want to get heavy handed unless they absolutely have to because some things happen (like bird flue this year) and the clubs are caught between a rock and a hard place. 

On the other hand there are an awful lot of clubs that have been taking liberties with the rules and regulations and haven't been providing the Judges with the quantity of live birds at the start of the test that are needed, relying instead on long dead birds pulled from the freezer to fill the gap. Pulling birds from the freezer is supposed to be something done as a last resort, in an emergency situation, not business as usual.

Junior dogs must absolutely see flyers. The ability to find, pick up and retrieve a shot bird and or cripple, are among the most basic skills required of a hunting companion. That is what the Junior test is all about, determining whether or not the dog possesses the skills required of a basic hunting dog. (A Junior dog is expected to find and retrieve a strong cripple. This expectation has been consistent since the beginning of the hunt test program 30 years ago.) A rubber duck is simply no substitute for a real bird and the complexities its' presence adds to the test.

The quality of the gunners is an issue for the clubs to deal with. They should have gunners who can hit what they shoot at.


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## RookieTrainer (Mar 11, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> The quality of the gunners is an issue for the clubs to deal with. They should have gunners who can hit what they shoot at.


Agreed, as is the quality of the mark itself. What looks like a great mark the night before is not so great at 8:30 the next AM when you are by yourself and now throwing a bird directly into the morning sun. Also, as I am sure you know, check the wind. A calm early morning probably lends itself to a more consistent flyer a lot better than waiting until the afternoon when the wind is supposed to pick up to 15-20 MPH. And setting the flyer up to shoot back toward the road where everybody is coming in and out is probably not an overly good idea either. None of that is meant to jump on any judges, but to illustrate that it takes everybody working together to minimize any issues. You probably can't completely eliminate them.

Now, off to finish my work day so I can go help set up for the Grand tomorrow.


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> The quality of birds at AKC Tests and Trials has been a large concern for the AKC for the last few years. They don't want to get heavy handed unless they absolutely have to because some things happen (like bird flue this year) and the clubs are caught between a rock and a hard place.
> 
> On the other hand there are an awful lot of clubs that have been taking liberties with the rules and regulations and haven't been providing the Judges with the quantity of live birds at the start of the test that are needed, relying instead on long dead birds pulled from the freezer to fill the gap. Pulling birds from the freezer is supposed to be something done as a last resort, in an emergency situation, not business as usual.
> 
> ...


Sold me I am in, it all makes sense, I was too sensitive to the issue but now totally agree


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## Trevor Toberny (Sep 11, 2004)

i hear people saying they would quit field trials if they removed ducks from the trials. im pretty sure the dogs would still do the work with dokkens and i want to keep duck and pheasants but to me this is about having fun with me and my dog as a team and if they take away birds i would still try and compete.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Trevor Toberny said:


> i hear people saying they would quit field trials if they removed ducks from the trials. im pretty sure the dogs would still do the work with dokkens and i want to keep duck and pheasants but to me this is about having fun with me and my dog as a team and if they take away birds i would still try and compete.


If I caught my right arm trying to throw a rubber duck for a dog in a competition of ANY sort- I would gnaw the SOB right off.

Feathers or nothing regards

Bubba


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## Ken Barton (Jun 7, 2010)

Maybe ? have an anal retentive division


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Ken Barton said:


> Maybe ? have an anal retentive division


That is funnnnny
I don't care who you are!!


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## GaryJ (Jan 1, 2013)

When plastic/rubber/canvas is able to run around, fly, and do everything a real live bird can do all by itself, I would consider using them at hunt tests and field trials. Until then ....


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Trevor Toberny said:


> i hear people saying they would quit field trials if they removed ducks from the trials. im pretty sure the dogs would still do the work with dokkens and i want to keep duck and pheasants but to me this is about having fun with me and my dog as a team and if they take away birds i would still try and compete.


Your the minority, the game on both sides HT and FT would loose alot of people if it ever went to rubber ducks.. ( And I don't see happening any time soon)


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