# Hillman training..are you really training like that?



## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

I have watched "The art and science of raising a puppy with Bill Hillman."

In the video, he explained his method for teaching a puppy to sit.
He told a puppy to sit . When the puppy sat, he gave it food. He then proceeded to tug the leash while he repeated the sit command as he tugged. Mr. Hillman explained that he this is how you transition a puppy from sitting because he's getting food to sitting because it's a command.

When the dog sat, he never marked the behavior ( by saying "yes" for example), he just gave the dog the food. Then, for some reason he repeated the sit command multiple times while he tugged on the leash as the dog continued to sit.

I don't get it. How is this laying the groundwork for teaching the dog what you want if you aren't marking the behavior and then building on that for everything else you need to teach the dog?

How does a dog learn how to learn by using this method?

Is everybody still only using pressure / compulsion training?

Is the rest of Hillman videotape series more of the same?

The videos are expensive. There are a number of them out there. I'd like to spend my money wisely. Are the other video training programs similar?

The link below is the type of training used by the protection dog folks I know. What they can do with those dogs is amazing. I've used myself with great success. This is what I was hoping for with Hillman. I'm not seeing it

Please check it out.

If you don't want to watch the whole thing, give it 18 minutes and watch 34:20 to 51:39.

https://youtu.be/xe0-oqqoXvw


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

I know that this isn't nearly as complex as the retrieve work that you guys do but, the training philosophy can be seen in this retrieve training video too. The correct behavior is marked by the trainer.

https://youtu.be/sCkRbt7H9EE


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

When I helped a friend with send away training by using a touch pad, I wondered if this training could be applied to retriever work.

Can you imagine having a dog that wasn't FF'd that loved his work so much? Is pretty cool to see.

https://youtu.be/V7eeNP41zXs


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## Rob DeHaven (Jan 6, 2003)

Have you ever seen a well trained retriever that loves their work. I'm guessing not.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Yes people use Hillman's method to train their dogs. There are several ways to train a retriever. Mr. Ellis is good but not sure it would get me to where I want in FT or HRC. The scenario changes for you & your dog when the excitement is amped up. Very different fields you are referring to. I agree that basics are important; should be reinforced consistently, maintained & done quietly. Polmaise I hope you chime in & present one of your videos on teaching heeling etc. 
Everybody does things different. Mr. Hillman's approach is one way. Things you disagree with any of the processes or methods can be challenged by anyone. You & only you can choose whatever method you like to meet your goals. JMO


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Brian,

I trained Toby similarly to how Mr Hillmann does it - sit, tug, tug, sit, tug, sit, tug, good, good sit, tug, sit... (well, along those lines - I do praise verbally, as well as with a retrieve - the praise becomes the reward of the retrieve). It does work. 

at 17 weeks of age Toby would sit while I walked 100 yds away and back whereupon he would get a happy bumper. I have used absolutely no ecollar for any of this training... just gradual increase in time/distance built on success. I think maybe once or twice in field work, has he ever broken a 'sit' and the only correction needed was to tell him 'no, sit' while placing him back in the sit position... I have not decided if I will use the collar yet, either.


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

The end result is what matters. If you choose to do it differently, that's fine. IF you get the same end result.

The methods used in most of the "established" programs work. If you run into problems along the way and have used an established program there are steps you can take that will help you get out of trouble.

If you come up with different methods you will also need to come up with different solutions as problems arise.


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## Don Lietzau (Jan 8, 2011)

Brian, I have accumulated a "stack" of books and training DVD's over the years. If there is two things I understand, 1. No DVD or book tells everything you need to know. 2. You will "click" with one author/teacher and with another it just don't jive. Putting your time in, making your mistakes and putting the "rubber on the road" will answer your questions. 
Don and Crew


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes. That's the freaky part. I really love the training in the videos. I've used it. I know it works. Its so cool to be able to mark what behavior is good and what behavior you don't like by this method.

But, it's obvious that the Hillman method works too.

I just thought it would be similar to what the protection dog guys were doing. I trained with them.

I'm just not buying that it changes when the excitement level is ramped up. If you ever taken a hit from a Belgian Malinois hitting your sleeve...geez.

But you're right, the tried-and-true approach has step-by-step instructions on what happens if you hit set backs. If I did it this way, I would be totally on my own and you guys would think I'm an idiot.

I've trained DDs with force fetch. I don't know if I have the heart to do that to a golden.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Watching my golden retriever about to catch a baby robin in the yard and stopping her with sit command from 40 yards away and having her turn back to me and look happy, all by this method without any force whatsoever... that is cool.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Brian Urban said:


> I'm just not buying that it changes when the excitement level is ramped up.


could you explain this thought in more detail?


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Tobias said:


> could you explain this thought in more detail?


Sure. But, I cannot do justice to what Michael Ellis explains on the video.

There is a perception that forcing a dog to retrieve is the way to go. But, in reality, think about all the threads on this site about people that have screwed it up and their dogs react poorly to them. I'm convinced it's because the handler didn't explain the dog properly how to turn off pressure. Golden retrievers turning their backs on the handler?

When the excitement level ramps up and the dog turns off that portion of his brain that wants to listen to you, that is when he needs to know most went to turn off pressure. How better to explain that to him then this type of training? He understands how to turn things off because you're teaching him how to learn.

If you watch the whole video, it's not all treat training. You do get serious if you need to.. but the dog understands how you're communicating with him. That's why I like this training... For me, it's just easier.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Rob DeHaven said:


> Have you ever seen a well trained retriever that loves their work. I'm guessing not.


Sure I have. I own one.

Have you ever seen a dog cowered every time it is brought to heel? I've visited retriever trainer in New Jersey who haf a dog that acted like a lobotomize robot. When someone asked him how to teach your dog to come on command he told them to buy a shock collar and to nuke it if it doesn't listen.

I've seen it both ways. All that I'm saying is this method in my humble opinion helps you communicate with a dog very easily.

I just was surprised, honestly, that Hillman didn't do that stuff.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Mary Lynn,

As far as heel training, yeah... that's different too.

https://youtu.be/RtUYnR5RYz8y


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Guys, I am not trying to be a AH here but...less than 3 years ago, I visited a training session of a local retriever club.

Do you know what I saw? Well, one of the handlers was upset that her dog was vocal while it was swimming out to duck.

What happened next? The dog was paraded around between the cars, dogs and kids and every single time the dog whined, the handler fried it with an ecollar. It was awful. I felt sorry for the critter.

I see something like that and wonder...is there a better way to explain to the dog what you want?


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Brian Urban said:


> Sure I have. I own one.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog cowered every time it is brought to heel? I've visited retriever trainer in New Jersey who haf a dog that acted like a lobotomize robot. When someone asked him how to teach your dog to come on command he told them to buy a shock collar and to nuke it if it doesn't listen.
> 
> ...





You are observing the wrong people!


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Brian Urban said:


> Guys, I am not trying to be a AH here but...less than 3 years ago, I visited a training session of a local retriever club.
> 
> Do you know what I saw? Well, one of the handlers was upset that her dog was vocal while it was swimming out to duck.
> 
> ...




Again you are observing the wrong people!!!!!!!!


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Brian Urban said:


> There is a perception that forcing a dog to retrieve is the way to go.


I get the feeling that you have little knowledge of retrieving and a lot of information,which can be dangerous.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?120947-FF-yawning

And how is that comment helpful?


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

polmaise said:


> I get the feeling that you have little knowledge of retrieving and a lot of information,which can be dangerous.


And especially little understanding of Bill Hillmann philosophy and methods. Very unfortunate given the thread title, incorrect assertions about Hillmann and incorrect compare/contrast to Michael Ellis.

Jim


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Instead of trying to ask questions to learn,maybe I should just sit back watch you guyd give snarky comments to every thread. You guys seem to enjoy doing it.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Brian, 
I have been in your shoes... I think everyone has. Everyone has seen dogs' 'infractions' handled incorrectly by their trainers. Heck, I am as guilty as the next person of ineffectively communicating to my dog what I was wanting him or her to do, using too much pressure, unfair pressure, poor timing, etc etc etc...

You have to train your dog how you think is best for you both. And if you do a great job and people see that, then you might be the motivation for them to change their own methods of training.

I think everyone appreciates working with and watching a happy dog work. For a vast majority of people (I hope, anyway), that is the goal and reward of training our hunting companions.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Then tell me how I'm wrong. Instead of giving me snarky comments of how I am dangerous.

Or should I just drop the money and follow him blindly?


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Tobias said:


> Brian,
> I have been in your shoes... I think everyone has. Everyone has seen dogs' 'infractions' handled incorrectly by their trainers. Heck, I am as guilty as the next person of ineffectively communicating to my dog what I was wanting him or her to do, using too much pressure, unfair pressure, poor timing, etc etc etc...
> 
> You have to train your dog how you think is best for you both. And if you do a great job and people see that, then you might be the motivation for them to change their own methods of training.
> ...



Thank you. That was useful. Yeah, I'm just trying to find the right video for me. I don't understand where he is going with a tug tug tug. I would really love to have something different. But, like I said, I know it works.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

My problem is, based on the reaction I get when I ask questions here, I hesitate to join the Retriever Club. I mean it's probably going to be more of the same right?

How can I join a group of people that watched that woman nuke the dog everytime it whined? They didn't say a word. In fact they encourage her.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

T-Pines said:


> And especially little understanding of Bill Hillmann philosophy and methods. Very unfortunate given the thread title, incorrect assertions about Hillmann and incorrect compare/contrast to Michael Ellis.
> 
> Jim



I thought I did a great job explaining what I saw as well as explaining my position about buying a video that might be more of the same. Are the other videos any different?


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

the tug, so far as I could tell, is Hillmann's way of getting the dog used to the 'pressure' on the collar for when ecollar conditioning begins. The frequency of the tug/sit/tug command becomes 'normal reinforcement' to the pup so that when the light correction from the ecollar is applied it is easily and quickly associated with the 'tug' on the collar. 

This is by far, I think, much more fair way to collar condition than the traditional and more common 'Lardy' method which utilizes a bit more collar pressure and heeling stick (as I recall, it has been a while since I watched a Lardy video). But that is my opinion and I think many may disagree with me.


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Brian, in your first post you asked, _"Is everybody still only using pressure/compulsion training?"_

Then, _"I just was surprised, honestly, that Hillmann didn't do that stuff."_

and

_"I just thought it would be similar to what the protection dog guys were doing. I trained with them.
I'm just not buying that it changes when the excitement level is ramped up."_

Not everyone is surprised. 

And you suggested this....._"But, it's obvious that the Hillmann's method works, too._

Yes, it does. I've been "doing" Hillmann's program with Pounce for over a year and it has
proven to be a "game changer" (for me). Total immersion is cool! and a strong mentor is a must! 

Brian, I'm somewhat perplexed at the point(s) you are attempting make.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

KwickLabs said:


> Brian, in your first post you asked, _"Is everybody still only using pressure/compulsion training?"_
> 
> Then, _"I just was surprised, honestly, that Hillmann didn't do that stuff."_
> 
> ...


Did you watch the video? There is a huge difference between training philosophy on the videos that I shared and the approach that Hillman has. I was expecting much more. That's all. I was expecting the retriever videos to be in line with the current philosophy on the obedience and thr Schutzhund training that I see from Michael Ellis.

I just see a marked improvement on what Michael Ellis is doing over what I saw on the puppy video from Hillmam


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Brian Urban said:


> Instead of trying to ask questions to learn,maybe I should just sit back watch you guyd give snarky comments to every thread. You guys seem to enjoy doing it.


Asking sincere questions with an open mind is commendable. This thread hardly resembles that. Your input to this thread is less about questions and more about your promotion of Michael Ellis with incorrect misrepresention of Hillmann and other current retriever training methods. This less than subtle ambush of Hillmann, et al falls beneath snarky.

Jim


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Sure. But, I cannot do justice to what Michael Ellis explains on the video.
> 
> There is a perception that forcing a dog to retrieve is the way to go. But, in reality, think about all the threads on this site about people that have screwed it up and their dogs react poorly to them. I'm convinced it's because the handler didn't explain the dog properly how to turn off pressure. Golden retrievers turning their backs on the handler?
> 
> ...


Thats why a conditioned response is need. A conditioned dog knows what his responsibility is (sort of speak). It may start off originally using pressure and the dog learning how to shut it off. But well conditioned dogs don't think about the pressure.They re way beyond that They just do what they do and do it right because they are driven and conditioned to do things a certain way.
It takes many years to understand certain things. You won;t understand it from reading books and watching video's. Understanding and depth comes from doing and doing it a lot.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

polmaise said:


> I get the feeling that you have little knowledge of retrieving and a lot of information,which can be dangerous.


Robt., whatever possibly could've given you that idea about Our Brian! Besides the well-versed rabbiting on about doing it cruelly and antithetically wrong if you want to have a happy retriever so well-trained that it can be called off a robin fledgling at 40 paces. Oh, and the possibly libelous comments about the "localest" retriever club and second-oldest in country, and their condoning of animal abuse in front of the wives and children at a club training day. Quite a parable, that. But as Monty Python would put it, so goes The Life of Brian, so let's not crucify him for who he is - or isn't.

MG


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

T-Pines said:


> Asking sincere questions with an open mind is commendable. This thread hardly resembles that. Your input to this thread is less about questions and more about your promotion of Michael Ellis with incorrect misrepresention of Hillmann and other current retriever training methods. This less than subtle ambush of Hillmann, et al falls beneath snarky.
> 
> Jim


Is it?

You honestly see no value in the training that I presented? I'm supposed to blindly drop my money down on the full video series when I I'm not happy with what I saw on the puppy video?


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

crackerd said:


> Robt., whatever possibly could've given you that idea about Our Brian! Besides the well-versed rabbiting on about doing it cruelly and antithetically wrong if you want to have a happy retriever so well-trained that it can be called off a robin fledgling at 40 paces. Oh, and the possibly libelous comments about the "localest" retriever club and second-oldest in country, and their condoning of animal abuse in front of the wives and children at a club training day. Quite a parable, that. But as Monty Python would put it, so goes The Life of Brian, so let's not crucify him for who he is - or isn't.
> 
> MG


I know right? Alex and Victoria were upset when they saw the dog getting nuked. It freak them out too.


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Brian, if you are going to use an ecollar with your pup... then you will be best advised to find a way to cc your pup fairly. IMO, Hillmann has shown us the best way to achieve this.
If you are not going to collar train, then I would not suggest his or other training videos that utilize them.

If you are wanting to utilize positive only training... or no collar training, this might be a good source of info.

http://www.fetchmasters.com/denver/dog-training-services/positive-gun-dog-training


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Brian

You have a predisposition about making sweeping generalizations about things without education, knowledge, or experience.

Ted


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Did you watch the video? There is a huge difference between training philosophy on the videos that I shared and the approach that Hillman has. I was expecting much more. That's all. I was expecting the retriever videos to be in line with the current philosophy on the obedience and thr Schutzhund training that I see from Michael Ellis.
> 
> I just see a marked improvement on what Michael Ellis is doing over what I saw on the puppy video from Hillmam


Let me give you an example
I start puppies similair in appearance to how schutzhund does it. I also do things similar in appearance to what Hillman does. I also do things similar in appearance to what Lardy does, I also do things similar in appearance to what Mertan does and I also make stuff up as I go along.
Give the dog what it needs when it needs it and it will learn. it doesn't matter who does what. They all apply principles of learning.
Just make sure you give the dog what it needs along the way so when you get to the advanced stuff and the dog needs a correction or re enforcement in a particular context, that he will be able to understand what your communicating.
Also what Ted said

pete


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Brian Urban said:


> I thought I did a great job explaining what I saw as well as explaining my position about buying a video that might be more of the same. Are the other videos any different?


If you are looking for some positive feedback why not post a video of Your heel work with your dog? I'm sure the good guys on here will help to guide you.
Videos will not train your dog to walk to heel . You will .


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

Brian Urban said:


> Is it?
> 
> You honestly see no value in the training that I presented? I'm supposed to blindly drop my money down on the full video series when I I'm not happy with what I saw on the puppy video?


I did not watch the video yet, so am not in a position to comment on it. when I have time to watch it in it's entirety, I will.


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

I have yet to meet someone who has studied Hillmann material more than I have. I have watched and studied Ellis, although not nearly to the same extent. I find Ellis to be entirely compatible with Hillmann.

Hillmann's Art &Science was not produced for a sophisticated audience. Not for the performance dog, seminar attending, Michael Ellis Institute crowd. It's primary goal is to help new puppy owners, with little background in successful puppy rearing, have a good outcome with their new pet companion and keep it from becoming another shelter statistic.

If you want the thorough Hillmann philosophy and the early retriever training methodology, you need the Training a Retriever Puppy DVD. Study it.

Jim


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

T-Pines said:


> I have yet to meet someone who has studied Hillmann material more than I have. I have watched and studied Ellis, although not nearly to the same extent. I find Ellis to be entirely compatible with Hillmann.
> 
> Hillmann's Art &Science was not produced for a sophisticated audience. Not for the performance dog, seminar attending, Michael Ellis Institute crowd. It's primary goal is to help new puppy owners, with little background in successful puppy rearing, have a good outcome with their new pet companion and keep it from becoming another shelter statistic.
> 
> ...


Thank you! That was helpful.
See, I'm in a weird situation. I've had a ton of different dogs. I feel that I've done a great job training all of them. 
I am seriously considering flying out to California and taking some classes with Michael Ellis.

I have no clue how to train a retriever to do what you guys do. When I saw the puppy video, it blew me away. I thought it was going to be better than that. But thank you again.

It is getting a little bit annoying though when I ask a question and people tell me that I don't know anything. I know that, that's why I'm asking the question.


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Pete said:


> Thats why a conditioned response is need. A conditioned dog knows what his responsibility is (sort of speak). It may start off originally using pressure and the dog learning how to shut it off. But well conditioned dogs don't think about the pressure.They re way beyond that They just do what they do and do it right because they are driven and conditioned to do things a certain way.


Pete, I've told this story before, when Michael Ellis reportedly was getting a couple of performance Lab pups to train and compete with in FTs (still unverified from what little I know). The ironic thing in the retelling is my friend who asked Michael Ellis for advice on e-collar use with his working GSP and who was told by Mr. Ellis to get up with retriever trainers because "they're light years ahead of the rest of us" - that same gentleman could've practically whispered the same guidance to Our Brian what with a sneeze being heard from one end of Delaware to the other.

MG


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

polmaise said:


> If you are looking for some positive feedback why not post a video of Your heel work with your dog? I'm sure the good guys on here will help to guide you.
> Videos will not train your dog to walk to heel . You will .


I don't have my new puppy yet. I'm just laying the groundwork and trying to figure out what training I am going to do with it.

At least I have a friend here in Delaware with all the answers!


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Brian Urban said:


> It is getting a little bit annoying though when I ask a question and people tell me that I don't know anything. I know that, that's why I'm asking the question.


You certainly don't act that way. Do you think it is coincidence that so many people dismiss you as a know it all with no basis of knowledge? Or do you think that - maybe, just maybe - you contribute to the public perception of you as one? When you find yourself in a hole - Stop Digging.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Brian Urban said:


> I am seriously considering flying out to California and taking some classes with Michael Ellis.


I bet that will cost a lot more than a DVD set ?
regards


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Ted Shih said:


> You certainly don't act that way. Do you think it is coincidence that so many people dismiss you as a know it all with no basis of knowledge? Or do you think that - maybe, just maybe - you contribute to the public perception of you as one? When you find yourself in a hole - Stop Digging.


Yeah. That's just it. For some reason, I have to ask the question in the right manner and genuflect. I'm so not used to that. I would never treat people that way.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Brian Urban said:


> I don't have my new puppy yet. I'm just laying the groundwork and trying to figure out what training I am going to do with it.
> 
> At least I have a friend here in Delaware with all the answers!


I thought you had a 'ton' of dogs that you trained?
If you have a friend in your back yard with all the answers why fly across the country ?


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

polmaise said:


> I bet that will cost a lot more than a DVD set ?
> regards


I know. But, I kinda like Ellis' training. From what I saw of the Hilman puppy video, I couldn't justify spending the money on a video series. That's why I asked a question.


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

polmaise said:


> I thought you had a 'ton' of dogs that you trained?
> If you have a friend in your back yard with all the answers why fly across the country ?




I've never trained a retriever to the levels that you guys have.

My dog is a meat dog... And yeah, I'm considering inviting him to dinner. I hope he comes if I do.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

*THE *person that helped me more than I can ever say,not only about training dogs, but exploring things about me,, once told me.

Sometimes its better to grow big ears, and close the big mouth!!

It has worked well for me..

I am not a successful FT'r,, and just a mediocre HT'r,, but after 3 previous dogs, I think I own a dog I can enjoy training with anyone, She hunts wonderfully, and is VERY compliant, and always wants t do the right thing..
And,, I believe I can do a Better job on the next one.. I learned a TON!

Thats what I got out of listening to the advice..

MHO!

Goosr


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> When you find yourself in a hole - Stop Digging.


Ted, I've no choice or recourse but to throw Our Brian at the mercy of the court. This whole charade is a ploy on his part to elicit sympathy for his having got stuck with a couple of "nice" DD's and on top of that, about to "welcome" a Golden into his well-trained kennel. Consider this a plea bargain for a sentence of having him fully cc'd (cockamamie conditioned)!

MG


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Why the personal attack?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Brian Urban said:


> Yeah. That's just it. For some reason, I have to ask the question in the right manner and genuflect. I'm so not used to that. I would never treat people that way.


No one is asking for you to genuflect. But, if you want people to take you seriously, you might lose the attitude. 

I have been a part of this forum since 2003. Over the years, many people like you have come and gone. Each of them was certain that they were going to set the world on fire and that everyone else was wrong. I don't think any of them have survived. Not because they didn't genuflect, but because they didn't have the knowledge, aptitude, or work ethic to see it through. 

Several years ago, someone like you, came on this forum and told us all how primitive we were and how Michael Ellis was going to turn the Retriever Field Trial game on its head. That person is gone. And if Michael Ellis ever trained a dog for field trials, that dog never set the world on fire, like the poster said it would.

You make comments about training when you have not taken the time to understand that methodology. 

If you want to make comments about Carr based collar conditioning, watch the Farmer/Aycock videos, spend some time with Danny/Judy and report back to us.
If you want to make comments about Lardy's training, watch the videos, spend some time with Mike/Ray/Pat, then report back to us.
If you want to make comments about Hillman's training, watch the videos, spend some time with Bill, then report back to us.

When you criticize a person's style of training without understanding the basis of that training, all you do is demonstrate your ignorance. 

Ted


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Ted Shih said:


> No one is asking for you to genuflect. But, if you want people to take you seriously, you might lose the attitude.
> 
> I have been a part of this forum since 2003. Over the years, many people like you have come and gone. Each of them was certain that they were going to set the world on fire and that everyone else was wrong. I don't think any of them have survived. Not because they didn't genuflect, but because they didn't have the knowledge, aptitude, or work ethic to see it through.
> 
> ...



What he said^


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## Tobias (Aug 31, 2015)

I think I remember that guy? Fred Hassen ?


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Tobias said:


> I think I remember that guy? Fred Hassen ?



No, Fred was before the Ellis disciple, whose name I've forgotten. But, Fred was another who was going to set the world on fire, then disappeared.


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## Mary Lynn Metras (Jul 6, 2010)

Brian Urban said:


> Did you watch the video? There is a huge difference between training philosophy on the videos that I shared and the approach that Hillman has. I was expecting much more. That's all. I was expecting the retriever videos to be in line with the current philosophy on the obedience and thr Schutzhund training that I see from Michael Ellis.
> 
> I just see a marked improvement on what Michael Ellis is doing over what I saw on the puppy video from Hillmam


Okay & that is a difference of opinion. Based on what most have done in HRC or FT it is common place to go w/ these DVDs. Preference & history of consistent results. There may be some that would use Ellis at first for the obedience etc but still not sure how I see your point as this to be helpful. But I will say you can't compare apples to oranges. Training w/ dumbells certainly is much different than live flyers. Going 200-300+ yards is also somewhat different. Also you and you alone have to pick your own program to suit your needs. Take the M.Ellis course if you like what you see and go from there.IMO


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

> Pete, I've told this story before, when Michael Ellis reportedly was getting a couple of performance Lab pups to train and compete with in FTs (still unverified from what little I know). The ironic thing in the retelling is my friend who asked Michael Ellis for advice on e-collar use with his working GSP and who was told by Mr. Ellis to get up with retriever trainers because "they're light years ahead of the rest of us" - that same gentleman could've practically whispered the same guidance to Our Brian what with a sneeze being heard from one end of Delaware to the other.


Mike 
Out of all the different dog disciplines I have frequented,,I believe retriever trainers have to best handle on the different usages. But there are many other usages than those used in retriever training. I like it for use for puppies ,,and I know their are some freaking out over that statement right now,,but its because they lack understanding and depth. and may not realize that the collars of of today have a reastat on the transmitter. Nothing more cool than watching an exuberant happy little puppy scream back to you with a bumper in his mouth while its getting stimmed.,,,Its to bad they don't make the 500 any more,,,great collar.

pete

Pete


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## crackerd (Feb 21, 2003)

Ted Shih said:


> Fred was another who was going to set the world on fire, then disappeared.


Secreted away and slumped over in one of the backseats of his official "Sit Means Sit" Humvee limo, if memory serves.

Brian, lots of folks have come on this forum and called on the largesse of others to help them get started training a retriever. Invariably they landed in a training group or got connected to a retriever club that showed them the way or where they might find "the true way." All those generous folks - with both their time and their knowledge - would never have been so "giving" as you put it of either if they had to entertain the notion that a newcomer couldn't wait to join in and reproach them for how wrong they were in getting their retrievers to do it right. Just sayin' - though Ted has said it much better, especially as might apply to your hooking up with a training group where you live. Again, just sayin' - but just sayin' with an answer I know for a fact.

Good luck,

MG


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

I watched a puppy video. Hillman was recommended. So I went with that recommendation. I listened to you guys.

I commented on exactly what I saw on the video which wasn't disputed.

I wondered if there was a retreiver video out there like The Michael Ellis stuff. I like it. I didn't like what I saw on the Hillman puppy video.

A simple answer would have been: " The puppy video and the full Hillman program are nothing alike. Buy the full video, don't be concerned what's on the puppy video it's not the same."

But, instead, you seem to want me to put me in my place because I seem arrogant to you. I seem arrogant? For asking questions? Like I said, I come from a different background and have never trained a dog like I'm about to get before.

And yes, when I saw at the retriever training group did happen. Like it or not, it happened. What I saw at the trainer in New Jersey's place happened too. If I'm arrogant about anything its the fact that I base my exposure to retriever trainers on when I see. That's what I saw.

You guys seem to dismiss my personal observations. Those observations and the responses I get here are my exposure to the retriever training world.

This is a message board. It's Thanksgiving. I thought I'd throw some things out there for friendly discussion. 

If you guys are that sensitive if people bring up new ideas for discussion, why have a message board at all? Do I think that I am going to revolutionize your training methods? No. I'm just asking questions.

Anytime anybody tells me they're the expert on something, I want to know why. It's how I learn. I know that there are several approved training videos. I didn't know everybody was supposed to follow lockstep alongside them and not question them. And the answer to the subject line of this post is: "Yes. We follow Hillman. But not the Hillman you see in the puppy video. It's better than that."

Where you got the idea that I was trying to tell you how to train, I haven't a clue. How was trying to have a friendly discussion.

Yes, I'm a newcomer. Thanks for welcoming me. Your perception of me digging a hole or somehow coming out embarrassed for asking questions... sorry, that's not me.. 

Is that what this place is all about?

And yes, I have absolutely strong opinions on what it takes to build a dog with a good nose. This is based on dogs have had in the past and what the breeders have told me. I was confused of how you can develop a tracking nose without actually testing for it. But that's just me. Sorry I got hung up on that.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Brian Urban said:


> I watched a puppy video. Hillman was recommended. So I went with that recommendation. I listened to you guys.
> 
> I commented on exactly what I saw on the video which wasn't disputed.
> 
> ...



You're right, Brian. 

You were trying to be friendly, and we were all busy being jerks towards you. 

You take no responsibility for the responses you receive. I have been here before, and have desire to revisit the past. 

It's off to the "ignore" button for you.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

To be fair,,there are somethings that Fred does with an e collar that is unknown to the retriever world, Some of the stuff he does has great benefits to young dogs and dogs with problems whether you play dog games or not.

Pete


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## Brian Urban (Jan 17, 2012)

Happy Thanksgiving guys!

Be proud.


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Brian Urban said:


> I watched a puppy video. Hillman was recommended. So I went with that recommendation. I listened to you guys.
> 
> I commented on exactly what I saw on the video which wasn't disputed.
> 
> ...


You don't seem arrogant for asking questions, but you do at lest a little bit by saying you watched the Hillmann DVD and don't like what you saw. If you know enough about training dogs to know, just by watching the DVD that you don't like what you're seeing, then why are you watching DVDs at all? Just go train a dog. 

Bottom line is this, and it makes no difference whether you train it using some unknown (in the retriever game) method like Ellis or more traditional Carr based approach, your going to be put down as not knowing anything about anything until you start placing or at least finishing trials or titling in hunt tests. And some of the most critical may have hired a pro to do all the training and never finished a trial with a dog that they actually trained. That's just how it is.


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## Bridget Bodine (Mar 4, 2008)

Brian
I have an apt on the property for clients . Come visit for 3 days or so in April... BB


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## Breck (Jul 1, 2003)

If I was breeder of Golden puppy someone on wait list would be happy.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Did you watch the "Training a retriever puppy" or the "The Art and science if raising a puppy"?

I purchased Lardy's TRT and Hillmann's "training a retriever puppy" and loved them both. I then purchased Hillmann's "Fetch Command" and love it also. I have Hillmann's land and water fundamentals on the way.

you may say I'm "blindly" following them but Heck they are very very very successful!!! 

I absolutely love Hillmann's approach and philosophy. I feel like it's a program that makes sense to me and I can follow easily. I will incorporate some of Lardy's stuff as well. 

I think it's just smart when you are new at something to try imitate those that have done it before and been successful doing it.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Breck said:


> If I was breeder of Golden puppy someone on wait list would be happy.


ROFL, I was thinking to myself that that sweet little ball of fluff is going to eat someone's lunch.


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## Jeri (Feb 24, 2015)

Wow… 7 pages in just one day…

I’m with Brian on this one, though I don’t think that will help you any Brian! 

I asked the *exact* same question about the Hillman sit-tug, sit-tug, sit-tug that you did several months ago and received vague non answers as well. I must say, Tobias’ answer was the first I have read that even comes close to a viable explanation (post #27). 

IMO, this does seem to be a snarky group, also a group that makes games out of deciphering what others have said. <Shakes head> I mostly lurk because I don’t know how to play these games and don’t know how to ask my questions without fear of receiving the kind of responses that you have. :-( Still, I would be lying if I said I haven’t learned from this group, so I lurk and look for my answers elsewhere.

I was compelled to tell Brian he was not alone.

Jeri (pulling on her flame retardant suit)


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## captainjack (Apr 6, 2009)

Jeri said:


> Wow… 7 pages in just one day…
> 
> I’m with Brian on this one, though I don’t think that will help you any Brian!
> 
> ...


The sit-tug is not to get the dog used to pressure. The sit tug, which Lardy and other Carr based trainers use btw, is to make sure the dog understands the verbal command sit. Even though being pulled off sit, the dog resists. This is an indication that the dog understands sit, and in some programs is an indication that you are ready to introduce the here command. 

This is explicitly covered in either Hillmann or Lardy and I think it is explicit in both.


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## Cat (Oct 13, 2015)

Nah, you're okay Jeri, all online forums, canine, equine, professional, etc. are like this... You have it exactly right, take what fits your needs and continue to seek.  Wise old horseman once said 'the more you learn, the more you realize you have still to learn...'


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## Daren Galloway (Jun 28, 2012)

snarky is putting "do you really train like that" in the title of the thread. it wasn't an honest question like "how does this help teach the lesson" or "how does this work" it was "are you ppl freaking retarded this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen". 

Ask a snarky question, expect snarky answers.


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## dr_dog_guy (May 25, 2003)

As I recall from my obedience days a century or two ago, there is a reaction called opposition reflex. You pull once the dog is sitting, and the dog naturally opposed that tug, affirming the sit. Did it regularly in obedience as well as now in the field. So the tugging makes absolute sense to me and it works. 

Its also the reason dogs forge when "heeling" on lead if you keep steady pressure on the lead. If you pull against a dog, it will pull back. That's why you do your best to teach heel with a loose lead.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Brian Urban said:


> Thank you! That was helpful.
> See, I'm in a weird situation. I've had a ton of different dogs. I feel that I've done a great job training all of them.
> I am seriously considering flying out to California and taking some classes with Michael Ellis.
> 
> ...


I'm confused Brian. When reading your quote in yellow I think you know NOTHING
But then I read your quote in red, and I believe that you must be the smartest dog trainer in the world {sorry Glen}


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Brian Urban said:


> I watched a puppy video. Hillman was recommended. So I went with that recommendation. I listened to you guys.
> 
> I commented on exactly what I saw on the video which wasn't disputed.
> 
> ...


As to the quote in red, in view of the fact that you are able to tell us what the answer to the questions you ask; it appears that you really don't need any help from any of us.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.








P. S. I'm assuming it wouldn't matter to you if that was NOT our answer


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

Brian, it's important to approach differing methods with an open mind. If there's a concept you don't understand or can't quite seem to grasp, asking questions is good if you can do it without prejudice. It's been my experience that a DVD can give an overview and Bill Hillmanns' do a lot more than that. I had the chance to attend one of Bill's seminars here in WI awhile back, and got a lot out of it. It's different from what I was used to doing, but it was easy to see the value, especially in person. 

And then, this week, Dennis Voigt visited my kennel to get his hands on some Chesapeakes. He worked with several of my dogs and client dogs, using the Hillmann style, and it was neat to see how easily and readily all the dogs responded to him, from new dogs who'd only been here a few days to my own dogs who'd been trained in a somewhat different style. The adaptation was quick and very easy, and it was fun to watch.

Keep an open mind, go somewhere and get your hands on it under someone experienced in the method, and you will learn a lot. 

Or keep your mind closed and refuse to step outside of your comfort zone. Your call. But it's unfair to criticize something you're never attempted to learn, just because it's unfamiliar.


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## patton1 (Jan 13, 2008)

I have watched Hillman clips on YouTube and was very impressed with how the dogs acted. They seemed very happy with the work they were doing. They seemed very motivated by the game ( on/off) and it seemed to work. I guess I just don't completely under stand the theory behind why it works. 
Is the dog complying with the command because it wants to play "the game"?
If the ecollar stimulations are not "punishment" ( as he mentions they are not...I believe him as they are very low level) what purpose do they provide? 
If the low nicks are just to condition the dog to pressure then when does he eventually use it for punishment (or maybe he doesn't)? 

Again I am not saying his method is bad ( quite the opposite....those dogs look very happy and focused), I just do not understand it. Maybe the answer would be over my intellectual capacity, but if it could be explained in lay terms I would appreciate the effort.


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## Bryan Parks (Aug 19, 2015)

Patton, watch these Hillmann YouTube clips on conditioning.

These are not his clips on collar conditioning. They are about how's dogs become conditioned to give a response. Very insightful 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JV-fJ7B3n4I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RNJ81ZWZr28

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QTMThgOykSM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2bvPL_4AlJ4


As far as the e-collar being used as "punishment" I have yet to see any professional trainer use the e-collar as "punishment". Neither Hillmann or Lardy use the e-collar to punish a dog for doing something wrong. The e-collar is used to reinforce a command and stimulation is applied when the dog is actually doing the right thing. 

The the low level shocks are just reinforcing the command.


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## Cooper (Jul 9, 2012)

I think Bill's record of success in the field trial world speaks for itself. Like Bill I have been training retrievers for around 50 years and I can tell you that you won't be wrong following his methods and philosophy of training. I can tell you first hand, that controlling and having great performances at 500 yards requires totally different procedures as compared to training close at a 100 yards or less as with protection dogs. I knew a fellow that was an expert in obedience and agility training and who wrote a book on obedience and also judged these events. He told me that training retrievers was a lot harder task and required different levels and methods of training. There are a lot of other methods out there too but you might not have much dog left after applying them to your dog,choose wisely.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

patton1 said:


> I have watched Hillman clips on YouTube and was very impressed with how the dogs acted. They seemed very happy with the work they were doing. They seemed very motivated by the game ( on/off) and it seemed to work. I guess I just don't completely under stand the theory behind why it works.
> Is the dog complying with the command because it wants to play "the game"?
> If the ecollar stimulations are not "punishment" ( as he mentions they are not...I believe him as they are very low level) what purpose do they provide?
> If the low nicks are just to condition the dog to pressure then when does he eventually use it for punishment (or maybe he doesn't)?
> ...


Here is the best way for me to describe my view:

Proper application and fair/humane use of the ecollar involves stepwise training building blocks that result in the ecollar being a mile-long leash that can not get tangled in trees and cover. 

There is more than one method that successful folks use to accomplish this. 

The little rope tugs used by Bill to reinforce "sit" are the start of a very sound (if properly maintained) sit response, that merge nicely into the introduction of e collar use. 

Chris.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

> I thought I'd throw some things out there for friendly discussion.


Re-read your posts. From the beginning you have been confrontational, and in the beginning even told us all about field trials that were built for speed. You are used to training different breeds for their venues, but you will now have a Golden which may be lots smarter and require a proven retriever field program. BTW, Fred Hassen, who was here previously, thought he was going to set the world on fire, was from protection, and it did him no good. He would not listen. When I met him you could tell he was set into not taking advice. You need to listen more and debate less. There are a few people that post here that know what they are doing and many do not. Many are noobs or in a rush to get to competing. Don't judge the program by those and by the people you meet that burn to cure everything. However, if you continue approaching the subject as confrontational, you will continue be called out because more than a few, are smart enough to see through your "friendly discussion" and you are mean replies when they tell you how they feel. Many people do not post if posters are know-it-alls. They just aren't going to waste their time. If you want Ellis, do his method, but you won't find too many people here to help when you hit problems, especially with a Golden.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Brian Urban said:


> Yeah. That's just it. For some reason, I have to ask the question in the right manner and genuflect. I'm so not used to that. I would never treat people that way.


Hi Brian, 

I am wondering how you would treat people. 

I am the janitor here. I read your very first post on this thread and sent you a pm offering my personal phone number and sincerely attempted to answer your first question. I did so despite my assumption that you already had your mind made up that Bill was wrong and that Ellis was right. 

I Have been the janitor here since 1998. In that time I have seen countless folks appear here with very similar views and behaviors. Ted and lots of silent (and some responding) have seen the same. 

Brian I have trained with and trained the dogs of some of the most successful law enforcement folks in my area. I have worn the bite suit. I have been the decoy. 

My personal read on your comments is that your mind, on this topic, is like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set. 

If you think the price of a DVD is too much investment to optimize your chances of having the retriever you desire, then I believe your priorities are a bit out of whack. 

The fact that you chose to continue in these debate topics; rather than drop a dime to accept a genuine offer to share information, makes me feel like you have another motive. 

You appear to want to publicly air some gripes against some retriever people in your area. 

I suggest you stop arguing so much and open your mind. Engage in some live dialogue with folks. Ask Mr. Ellis personally about his successes with field retrievers and methods to accomplish those goals. 

Back to my law enforcement friends: For their retrievers, they follow the programs of Mr. Lardy, Mr. Hillmann, etc. 

You've got my number. 

I think I was where you are years ago. 

I promise that if you open your mind and apply proven retriever methods you will optimize your chances of creating the masterpiece you desire. 

To to answer your op title question, yes. I really am training like that. My 8 month old puppy certainly makes me happy and is progressing very nicely. 

Good luck and have fun. Chris.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

Hi Brian, I just sent you a pm with my phone number. Please call if you would like some of my insight on field Goldens, I love talking about this stuff, so would welcome your call.

John


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## Terry Marshall (Jan 12, 2011)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> I am wondering how you would treat people.
> 
> ...


Man Chris you are right on that's why you have been the boss for 16 years


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## lucas (Sep 10, 2003)

*some facts about Michael Ellis*



Brian Urban said:


> I have watched "The art and science of raising a puppy with Bill Hillman."


Hi Brian. I was not put off by your subject line, as so many others appear to be. Instead I thought, 'hmmm, wonder what he means' and proceeded to read further. Wow.

I have been personal friends with, and trained with, Michael Ellis for more than ten years. He used to visit every three months, until he opened his School for Dogs. Now he does not travel at all. Michael will be the first to tell you he does not train retrievers for field, nor does he have any interest in that style of dog work. Not sure where that 'rumor' came from. (although, MANY years ago he did run his Malinois in some NAHRA trials, just for kicks, and titled both of them). He does have a field-bred Lab, about 20-months old now. "Boudreaux" aka Boo. https://www.instagram.com/p/9Ttk8qJr3C/ I visited with them in August; he's going to be a dynamite dog. 

It is true that Michael comes from the 'protection' dog sports, mostly Mondio Ring and IPO. But he is best known for his grasp of dog learning theory and applying it to ALL types of dog training. EVERY dog activity, regardless of 'flavor', is based on obedience. If your dog isn't obedient to your commands, your chosen game won't be any fun, whether your game is hunting, or competition of some sort. So if you want a good foundation in how dogs learn, Michael is the guy to see. And you will get way more out of taking a course with him than you will ever get from his videos. He was teaching a class in 'motivation' while I was there and I heard and saw things that I never picked up from a video or from his frequent visits to our place. A weekend training session, with 10-15 dogs and their people, can't begin to cover the detail you get in a week-long class.

When I was there, I met a woman from Delaware who was staying for three MONTHS! She has a dog-training school and wanted to learn, in-depth, the theory so she can help ALL of her students, regardless of breed or venue.

Because there are Hillman videos on youtube (and many other trainers, including Michael), you might benefit from spending some time watching as many as you can before deciding where to go next. As you can probably guess, I HIGHLY recommend a trip to Santa Rosa to learn from M.E. Yes, I realize it is a huge expense.... You just missed a Michael Ellis puppy class but there is another one in January. The puppy class 

"covers early “critical” socialization, “learning to learn,” shaping behavior, controlling environment to keep problems from emerging, proper play techniques (to maximize motivation), house breaking, and teaching manners without destroying a dogs motivation to work, and general management. This course is designed for a variety of trainers, from active pet dog trainers to competitive obedience, agility, or protection sport trainers. " 

Michael's basic tenet is, your relationship with your dog is the most important fundamental. (and no, he is not a 'cookie trainer.' He has a week-long course on proper use of the electronic collar.)

Best to you and your new pup! PM me if you want more info.

lucas


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Chris Atkinson said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> I am wondering how you would treat people.
> 
> ...


I also sent a pm to Brian,I'm sure many others also . This place is is only as good as you use or tap in to who is trying to help. I have had no reply.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Best thread in years. I can only imagine what responses Brianna would have received 5 years ago, lol


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Brian, you wrote:


> When the dog sat, he never marked the behavior ( by saying "yes" for example), he just gave the dog the food. Then, for some reason he repeated the sit command multiple times while he tugged on the leash as the dog continued to sit.


In obedience training, this has been long been used to have the dog resist the pressure of the tugging and stay sitting. In obedience training it is used on the "stay" command, while in retriever training the philosophy is to bypass a "stay" command, since sit means to sit and stay sitting.

There's probably a time lapse between teaching the dog to sit, and the tugging "proofing" of the dog to "sit-stay" even when some incentive is leading the dog to break his sit.

There is a second factor not quite as obvious. If a dog is sitting and forward pressure (tugging) is put on the lead, if the dog really wants to stay sitting the dog must put "effort" into the sit. He must lean backward into his sit to avoid yielding to the forward tugging. The dog must really put some effort into the act of staying in the sit position. He would be repeating the sit command to "remind" the dog of what he is expected to do in spite of the distraction of the forward tugging.

You might see this more clearly if you sat the dog on a picnic table, and exerted forward pressure on the leash. The dog would pull back against the leash to avoid falling off the table. The dog would truly "feel" the effort required to stay in the sit position. You don't want to pull the dog off the table, you just want to exert enough pressure to have him lean back into the sit.

This is just how I would interpret what he is doing with the tugging. The dog would have to clearly understand sit before getting to the tugging stage.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bottom line - Ellis is a great communicator and coach. Bill is a great communicator and coach. 

Nowhere will you find Ellis's list of championship winnings. 

Bill is widely known for training the most derby champions in history.

So here's your choice...

Go with the guy whose trained the most derby champion retrievers in history, or a guy who has never trained a competitive retriever and has no major accomplishments in any other venue (that are easily identified). 

Your choice. 

If I were training a dog in protection I would look at Bart Bellon's NePoPo philosophy. Bart is well known for having won multiple world titles in Schutzund. 

For years I said "every trainer has value" and while I still believe that's true to an extent... 

I now train 20 or so dogs a week and depend on guys like Hillman and Bellon for insights (to the extent I can get them without first hand coaching). 

Ellis is great for explaining things in detail if you want some background however... I'll go with the guy that competes in the sport I want to compete in and wins regularly.

I should be lynched by a few of my RTF friends for saying this but they will probably see it as a positive change of heart for me LOL.


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## John Robinson (Apr 14, 2009)

I don't think Brian is following this thread, or even RTF anymore. He hasn't posted a reply nor replied to multiple PMs from myself or others in the last week.


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## Sharon Potter (Feb 29, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> Ellis is great for explaining things in detail if you want some background however... I'll go with the guy that competes in the sport I want to compete in and wins regularly.
> 
> I should be lynched by a few of my RTF friends for saying this but they will probably see it as a positive change of heart for me LOL.


 Good to hear. 

Seriously....would someone send their Kentucky Derby prospect to a trainer of roping horses? Pick the method that is tailored to the sport you want to play.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

John Robinson said:


> I don't think Brian is following this thread, or even RTF anymore. He hasn't posted a reply nor replied to multiple PMs from myself or others in the last week.


I had some pretty detailed conversation via telephone with Brian on Monday evening. 

I believe he understood what I was trying to convey here, much more clearly when we spoke.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I had some pretty detailed conversation via telephone with Brian on Monday evening.
> 
> I believe he understood what I was trying to convey here, much more clearly when we spoke.


You're a good man Chris.


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