# Old timers - Kellogg kennels



## acandtwows (May 23, 2008)

I'm doing a bit of research and looking for anyone who may have visited Kellogg kennels a ways back (40 - 50 years ago). Did they breed Pointers and Weimeraners as well as Labradors? Thank you.


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## Shelby (Jul 20, 2009)

I could be wrong on this , but I think they just bred pointing labs


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## PremierGundogs (Feb 27, 2010)

I talked to Mayo ( Kellogg), one time on the phone back 15 years ago or so. I asked him how he went about trying to breed his labs to have a natural staunch point (like a pointer). His answer was that he contacted breeders/kennels and asked that if they had adults that showed these tendencies, that they would call him. He said he bought quite a few dogs back in the day and basically over the years bred staunch point females to staunch point males. The pups that showed the strongest point at weaning, on a wing and a string, he would keep back.

As far as I remember, he never mentioned raising any of the pointing breeds.

Hope this helps.


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## frontier (Nov 3, 2003)

This article Outdoor Life article calls Mayo Kellogg "the real father of the pointing Lab" 

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2007/09/pointing-labs


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## Cleo Watson (Jun 28, 2006)

Our foundation bitch's Sire and Dam were from old Kellog's breedings and my first personal gundog came from her first breeding with a Gunfield's Super Charger son and she would throw flash points on quail but I never encouraged her. This was in 1982.

Personally I feel that Labs are so smart you can teach them anything - look how much they have taught us. LOL


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

acandtwows said:


> I'm doing a bit of research and looking for anyone who may have visited Kellogg kennels a ways back (40 - 50 years ago). Did they breed Pointers and Weimeraners as well as Labradors? Thank you.


I visited Kellogg Kennels in December 1980, and the only breed Mayo had was Labs. Far as I know they've never had Weims, and hadn't had any pointers since the late '60s. His granddad had Llewellyn setters and Irish Terriers, but that was back in 1912.

The kennel is roomy and well set up with large individual runs. At the time there were only about a dozen adult Labs present. The Labs of Mayo's own breeding were very good quality -- some exceptionally good dark yellows. The stud dog he'd bought from big name stock was the only dud on the place. There were NO miscolored dogs. He had a nice yellow litter at the time and the worst you could say of them was a couple had a white patch on the chest, which is hardly unusual in old field lines. And in talking to Mayo for a couple hours, it became evident he really knew dogs.

I know people have been trying to pin the dilute gene on Kellogg, but that's not the source, nor did it come from a Weim. It came from an Elkhound cross done in England during WW2 (Mary Roslin-Williams said in an interview that she'd witnessed that mating). Any bloodline that goes back to the Poppleton line can carry it. The first dilute pups I know of were born back around 1960 in New Jersey, from imported parents.

As to today's pointing Labs, well, our pedigrees were never as simon-pure as folks would like to believe. Old timers would tell of how many years ago a solid black pointer came over from England and was used on Lab bitches to try to improve style... I'm pretty sure one particular foundation sire of our modern fieldtrial lines was actually sired by that pointer, back in the mid-1940s. 

It takes about 40 years for a recessive gene to become sufficiently widespread to start popping up ... so it's been with both the pointing trait and the dilute gene.


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

This is a 2010 post and I find it odd that it has been resurrected.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Clint Watts said:


> This is a 2010 post and I find it odd that it has been resurrected.


Me too but there is undoubtedly a reason that we do not yet recognize.


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## polmaise (Jan 6, 2009)

Cleo Watson said:


> Personally I feel that Labs are so smart you can teach them anything - look how much they have taught us. LOL


Is this not brilliant?
I reckon with this we just get a pup and do nothing...Ok so it's an old post and probably out of context . ?..Is it.

Our training group class today ,,,,,,,''I reckon they were all born perfect, we just feck them up''  ...They were 'Spaniels' btw


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## Clint Watts (Jan 7, 2009)

EdA said:


> Me too but there is undoubtedly a reason that we do not yet recognize.


Agree but I do have my suspicions. There is a possibility that someone will be asked to use their real name (above us) before this is over. I will sit back and enjoy.


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## Cass (Sep 17, 2013)

Someone undoubtedly trying to clear the Kellogg name, especially with all the dilute posts going around as of late. I think the real question is who cares whether your lab points or not?


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Same as farmers with their herding border collies and in Australia kelpies too. 

Inheritance of behavior interests me no end....and lets face it spaniels and herders instinct for requirements is there....or not.


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## Reziac (Jun 26, 2008)

If that's meant to be a dig at me, dig harder, I don't have a dog in that fight -- the nearest point my dogs have any Kellogg ancestry is the 1940s and I've never had a dilute. And I'm not hard to find online either. I guess my sin is not noticing how old the thread was before trying to be informative from firsthand info, something sorely lacking when it comes to historic dogs or kennels.


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## Marvin S (Nov 29, 2006)

Reziac said:


> I visited Kellogg Kennels in December 1980, and the only breed Mayo had was Labs. Far as I know they've never had Weims, and hadn't had any pointers since the late '60s. His granddad had Llewellyn setters and Irish Terriers, but that was back in 1912.
> 
> The kennel is roomy and well set up with large individual runs. At the time there were only about a dozen adult Labs present. The Labs of Mayo's own breeding were very good quality -- some exceptionally good dark yellows. The stud dog he'd bought from big name stock was the only dud on the place. There were NO miscolored dogs. He had a nice yellow litter at the time and the worst you could say of them was a couple had a white patch on the chest, which is hardly unusual in old field lines. And in talking to Mayo for a couple hours, it became evident he really knew dogs.
> 
> ...


We all have different standards. What looks acceptable to some may not be so acceptable to others . 
My idea of a kennel is not a dirt run with field fencing holding the dogs in, but maybe I'm don't understand. 
BTW, I have been by the kennels about the same time as you were, didn't stop as I saw what I needed to 
see. We had a young fellow in Butte that had a KK dog, had paid fairly good money for it & it's rear hocks 
would hit each other when he ran. Only reason I went by the kennel. We owned a dog & cat boarding kennel
& the animal control officer used to tell us, "if all kennels were like this they would not need me."

I always felt that a dog doing what it was not bred to do made it defective! There is a reason we call them 
retrievers . My cousin, county sheriff in SD, had a KK dog, he was very proud of the fact that his pointing 
lab had whipped a badger.


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

I have posted on KK a couple times here and on another site. My father and I knew Mayo on personal basis. My dad was a printer and traded printing projects (letterheads, brochures etc) with Mayo for dogs. Think we had 4. During those years...late 80' through mid 90's Mayo had a pretty decent set up. Some concrete but some not. Every time we were there it was clean and organized yet maybe not to today's standards. I learned that Mayo had more dog knowledge than most trainers/breeders combined. He really understood dogs. Had great stories. He quit school as a kid (like 13?) to raise and hunt dogs with his dad. Mayo's quote was always " I breed family dogs that just happen to hunt like crazy." I can't agree more. The dogs we've had were fantastic hunting dogs, so full of natural instinct and so sweet. My dad actually still has the last one Tug who is 13 I believe. Watched him retrieve a duck in a crp field one time and on way back pointed a hen pheasant with duck in mouth. He told me same as other said that he bred dogs with strong point to other labs with strong instinct to point. He said that labs come from pointing dogs, that basically all dogs are mutts. The st johns dog was a combo of hounds and pointers etc. He would find the ones that had the point instinct.


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## barbless (Aug 9, 2015)

vergy,

I received a brochure from KK back in the 70's it had a photo of a large YLM jumping a fence with a squirrel in it's mouth after a second look it was not a squirrel but a fox. The letter that was with the brochure was a classic.
*Do you know if my memory is correct?* 

HM


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## vergy (Sep 8, 2006)

Yes you are..a big red fox! Think that dog was Chief! Big red male.


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## Furball (Feb 23, 2006)

Reziac said:


> I know people have been trying to pin the dilute gene on Kellogg, but that's not the source, nor did it come from a Weim. It came from an Elkhound cross done in England during WW2 (Mary Roslin-Williams said in an interview that she'd witnessed that mating). Any bloodline that goes back to the Poppleton line can carry it.


Norwegian Elkhounds DO NOT carry the blue dilute allele so that would be an impossibility. Elkhounds are sable/agouti with most likely chinchilla gene that dilutes any red to silver (phaeomelanin). The blue "B" locus is not what makes them silver/grey.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

I had a lab with Kellogg blood. His picture is in the RTF banner. I corresponded with Mayo E around 1988 or so. 

I will check to see if I still have Mayos correspondence. My memory of it is that it was amusing and full of spelling errors. As I recall, Mayo explained that when other kids were at school, he was out chasing pheasant and ducks.


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## kevinvoldness (6 mo ago)

acandtwows said:


> I'm doing a bit of research and looking for anyone who may have visited Kellogg kennels a ways back (40 - 50 years ago). Did they breed Pointers and Weimeraners as well as Labradors? Thank you.


I knew Mayo; he was one of me dad's best friends. Had a pup, Kelly, out of Choco, the bitch he gave my mom, Muggs.

My sister now has a silver, but they're are telling her to wait until it's, like, four, to have a litter. I say the should have their litter first year, then be spayed to avoid more stress. Thoughts?


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## drunkenpoacher (Dec 20, 2016)

kevinvoldness said:


> I knew Mayo; he was one of me dad's best friends. Had a pup, Kelly, out of Choco, the bitch he gave my mom, Muggs.
> 
> My sister now has a silver, but they're are telling her to wait until it's, like, four, to have a litter. I say the should have their litter first year, then be spayed to avoid more stress. Thoughts?


She should be spayed tomorrow.


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## tigerfan (Mar 13, 2019)

Where's my popcorn


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## AllAroundLab (Dec 21, 2010)

kevinvoldness said:


> I knew Mayo; he was one of me dad's best friends. Had a pup, Kelly, out of Choco, the bitch he gave my mom, Muggs.
> 
> My sister now has a silver, but they're are telling her to wait until it's, like, four, to have a litter. I say the should have their litter first year, then be spayed to avoid more stress. Thoughts?


1. No large breed dogs should have a litter at a year. That's like a 12 yr old human having a baby, does that sound like a good idea?
2. No dog should have a litter without OFA health clearances, which cannot be done until 2 yrs old for hips and elbows.
3. Silvers are susceptible to color dilute alopecia, which takes time to manifest and should not be bred from, the dog with a coat at one may be balding at four, you have to wait to know.
4. Silver is not a color under the breed standard for Labradors and is in fact a disqualification. Dogs with disqualifications should not be bred. Since no silver breeder is actually putting their money where their mouth is to form a breed association and do things the right way to form a distinct breed, silvers are not a breed, nor will they ever be accepted by the Labrador Retriever parent club.


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## J. Marti (May 2, 2014)

I don't know if I ever posted this. Kellogg's Kennels advertisement from Field & Stream, June 1972, page 159. What do you think they mean by the color "Liver"?


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## AllAroundLab (Dec 21, 2010)

Since liver and chocolate are interchangeable terms in Labs I suppose he used both to denote different shades of brown or possibly just included both so people would understand no matter what term they were familiar with. Liver is a more widely used term, in other breeds. Kellogg would use different names for different shades of yellow as well, calling the darker ones golden.



J. Marti said:


> I don't know if I ever posted this. Kellogg's Kennels advertisement from Field & Stream, June 1972, page 159. What do you think they mean by the color "Liver"?
> 
> View attachment 89988


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