# Cruciate Ligament -Just let it tear?



## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

So my 15 month old CLM (and me of course) have been dealing with a sporadic rear right leg limp for 5 weeks now. We have had hip x-rays which came back OFA "good". My primary vet feels he has strained, stretched, or partially torn his cruciate ligament (not sure which one) based on slight movement in his knee. She recommend rimadyle and 100% rest for three weeks then re-evaluate. We went in for a re-evaluation today and I saw a differnt vet in the practice. This vet basically said it looks like he has a partial tear or stretch (based on watching him walk and movement in knee), I do not feel surgery is warrented at this time, here are some good joint supplaments (better be good because they were $138 for 250 pills) and more rimadyle (20 days this time) and you should go back to running and training as long as he feels up to it. When he tears the ligament then we (or someone) will do surgery.

Now we talked for a while but that is still what she was saying.

I asked that the vet in the practice who did the exam three weeks ago discuss with this vet and call me to discuss with me.

I am uncomfortable with just saying "screw it, he is going to tear it anyway so lets get it over with".

Should be noted that there have been no MRI or otherwise to confirm the tear.

I'm about $600 deep in this limp at this point. Not worried about the money but I don't like wasting it if that is what I am doing. Should I just go to a specialist now or give him more rest for another two to three weeks and see where we are.

Another note, I just walked him up the road and back and saw no favoring of the leg at all. I am struggling to see what the vet said she saw when she took him for a short walk at the facility. Reportedly it was very slight but noticable. I guess my issue is I was of the opinion he was getting better based on him not carrying the leg and when I go back and see a different vet basically it is "he'll make a fine family dog but will always have issues".

Thoughts, suggestions, experience?


Jason


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Do the surgery

I have had 5 ACL repairs done on 3 dogs

It doesn't get better with time

If the dog blows the knee, there is 60% chance of meniscus injury with corresponding issues with arthritis. If you do the repair before dog blows the knee, I think there is a 15% chance of menicus injury

I retired one of my dogs at age 6 because he had partial tear. Decided to not invest in surgery, because he was retired. Went on walk. He blew knee. Should have just done it off the bat


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## WRL (Jan 4, 2003)

Ligaments don't repair themselves.

Typical signs of a partial or complete tear are reoccurring part-time or full-time lameness.

Crate rest, then you start exercising the dog again and the limp comes back. 

You need to contact whomever is going to do the repair (should you decide to go that route) and consult with them.

I would NOT let "just some old regular vet" do the repair. Go to someone who's done it a bunch. You don't want your dog to be the guinea pig.

WRL


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## Poochmom (Mar 6, 2010)

I agree with Ted for the most part... they usually don't get better with time and it is better to do surgery sooner rather than later as they heal so much easier when they are young. However; that being said, I have heard of some dogs who do "heal" with intense rest and nutraceutical therapy. We had both knees done on our girl when she was about 14 mos. and she was back to normal activity within two months. Amazing. And definitely do your homework on the vet who does the surgery if you choose to go that route.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Is the knee poping out causing a limp and then going back in on its own? Is the vet able to move it in and out?


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> Is the knee poping out causing a limp and then going back in on its own? Is the vet able to move it in and out?


I've had that thought. There have now been three different vets poking and pulling on him and that has not been mentioned.

I'm going to set up an appointment with a specialist next week.

It's just frustrating. I wish I could explain to him what is going on. He still acts like nothing is wrong and want to drive just as hard as he always has.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

Go to a specialist. If it is a ccl do the surgery. The longer you wait, the more likely the dog with have more severe arthritis later in life. The old rest them usually never works.


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## berk (Jun 4, 2006)

ErinsEdge said:


> Go to a specialist. If it is a ccl do the surgery. The longer you wait, the more likely the dog with have more severe arthritis later in life. The old rest them usually never works.


Ditto. Only one dog, but both knees, 3 years apart. 

They're pretty stoic animals, just imagine how bad that has to hurt for a dog to not want to put weight on it.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

There is no way to know for certain if you have an ACL tear without going in. X Ray, MRI, Ultra sound, etc. - no good. 

If you have a tear, I promise you it won't get better.
If you have a tear, it means nothing that dog is running around like normal.

You can wish, you can hope - but mostly that is worthless

See the specialist, do the surgery


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

jtfreeman said:


> I've had that thought. There have now been three different vets poking and pulling on him and that has not been mentioned.
> 
> I'm going to set up an appointment with a specialist next week.
> 
> It's just frustrating. I wish I could explain to him what is going on. He still acts like nothing is wrong and want to drive just as hard as he always has.


I agree with everyone else. See a specialist. If it pops in and out on it's own, it could be luxating patella which is what one of my dogs had last year. If not corrected, the arthritus that can develope later on is not good. Tucker was running an upland test when his knee went out. The judges stoped the test thinking he was injured. They waited a couple of minutes, the knee went back in on it's own and finished the test (he passed). We have had this repaired but have been told to expect it in the other knee as well.


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## Gwen Jones (Jun 19, 2004)

Surgery is the way to go. These dogs do NOT tend to get better on their own and you are wasting precious time with an animal that you love. Someone please put the correct percentage in this blank but it comes to mind that over 80% of dogs who have one ACL go out have the other one repaired in a 3 year window. They recover well, feel better almost immediatly and spring is almost here for your rehab.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

thanks everyone for all the suggestions and information. I should be able to get the referral on Monday and hopefully get an appointment during the week.

I will let eveyone know what the ortho says.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Having gone through this as often as I have, if - god forbid - another of my competition dogs were to get a partially torn ACL, I would strongly consider

- Having both knees done at the same time
- Doing one knee, waiting a month, then doing the other knee

If the dog were a pet, I might simply do one knee, then hope the remaining knee stayed ok.

But, with competition dog, I would just as soon consolidate the rehab and minimize the down time


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

...along with everything said here, ..if you are lucky enough to have a vet that is thoughtful to an athletic (athlete) retriever that you want to train and trial...along with being your companion/pet/housedog... seems that they would be sending you to an Orthopedic Surgeon for the best results possible. 

Choose your Orthopedic Specialist carefully.....and stay on top of rehab after surgery, if that is done. Rehab (the best that you can provide) is as important as the surgery itself..

Good luck!

Judy


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

When getting a referral it might help if the specialist has an understanding of what field labs do for a living and what you hope to get as far as final outcome.


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

Ted, has your surgeon recommended doing surgery on both?

I have heard that a dog has a 50% chance of blowing the other ACL if the first one goes. What has been your percentage on your five?

I can certainly see the reasoning in fixing both at the same time when you consider down time from surgery.


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## Ted Shih (Jan 20, 2003)

Cost of doing both together is less than doing them apart, as you are only paying for anesthesia once. However, airing can be difficult and there is a higher risk of infection. But, if faced with decision again, I would think long and hard about doing both at same time. And if not, I would do one shortly after the other


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## Aristillus (Jan 28, 2010)

My Lab had TPLO surgery on both knees, which gave her several great years she wouldn't have otherwise had. Find a board certified orthopedic surgeon and get a consult. I would never consider the "traditional" fix for a large canine athlete...where they use string to replace the ligament. Do your homework and good luck! Anne


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Couple of questions:

!.) how were your dogs acting prior to the decision for surgery? Were they in pain and carrying the leg most or all of time?
2.) for those that got this done early in the dogs life, how has the health of the knee been in the later years of life? Arthritis?

We will see what the ortho says next week, but I still am not seeing him carry the leg. Three to five weeks ago you could walk him on leash and he would carry it from time to time. He went on a 30 minute walk yesterday and we did not see him carry it. Now he has had no "real" exercise and that may show different results.


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Without question, you want to consult with a board certified orthopedic surgeon. One that is familiar with working Labs would be a plus.
Secondly, you want a rehab facility that has also done this before.

Pay carefull attention to Ted's comments!!

So far, 3 years after my dogs surgery, he continues to run like a deer.

Yes, it the the dog has torn a CCL, do the surgery NOW. Waiting until later does nothing for the dog... except make it worse.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

lablover said:


> Without question, you want to consult with a board certified orthopedic surgeon. One that is familiar with working Labs would be a plus.
> Secondly, you want a rehab facility that has also done this before.
> 
> Pay carefull attention to Ted's comments!!
> ...


I guess the torn ACL is my question right now. He has no swelling in the knee that can be see or felt. I always heard (now this has been on me and my knee issues) that is anything is torn it will swell.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

jtfreeman said:


> I guess the torn ACL is my question right now. He has no swelling in the knee that can be see or felt. I always heard (now this has been on me and my knee issues) that is anything is torn it will swell.


CCL strains and partial tears are diagnostic challenges, there may be no joint effusion (swelling) and the lameness is typically intermittent

experience with the problem leads one to diagnose the problem sooner rather than later, affected dogs have a classic sit as full flexion of the stifle causes discomfort and the foot of the affected limb will be rotated outward and away from the body to avoid full flexion of the stifle

2 rules of thumb for CCL injuries

1. Strains and partial tears eventually become complete tears

2. Acute rear limb lameness in an otherwise normal dog should be considered the result of a CCL injury UNTIL PROVEN otherwise

the surgeon to whom I refer will do an arthroscopic exam to confirm the injury in suspicious cases of strains and partial tears, upon confirmation he proceeds with repair, so far we have been 100% correct with preliminary clinical diagnosis


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## John Lash (Sep 19, 2006)

jtfreeman said:


> I guess the torn ACL is my question right now. He has no swelling in the knee that can be see or felt. I always heard (now this has been on me and my knee issues) that is anything is torn it will swell.


I had a problem with a dog 25 years ago, she would run the first training set up fine. When it was time to run the second set up you could see she was a little hesitant getting out of the truck but then she was OK. She had the slightest limp off and on. I took her to several vets who gave various opinions. You could hear something clicking in her knee. I finally took her to an Orthopeodic surgeon. He looked at her for maybe 30 seconds and said she had a partially torn cruciate. He did the old fashioned string repair and she was good for the next 8-9 years.

John Lash


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

EdA said:


> CCL strains and partial tears are diagnostic challenges, there may be no joint effusion (swelling) and the lameness is typically intermittent
> 
> experience with the problem leads one to diagnose the problem sooner rather than later, affected dogs have a classic sit as full flexion of the stifle causes discomfort and the foot of the affected limb will be rotated outward and away from the body to avoid full flexion of the stifle
> 
> ...


thank you Ed. You help is always much appreciated.

As far as his sit goes. He has a tight sit with both legs under his body. I just went out and had him sit three times for me. Each time there was no pronounced rotation of the leg or foot outward with the affected leg. I will continue to watch this throughout the day.

Now if your No. 1 is the case. What do I do now (other than see the specialist)? He has been on rest for 5 weeks. I have not seen him carry the leg in one week and that was only one step one time. Other than that it has been three weeks. Should I let him have some freedom today and see where we truely are?

I am hoping and wishing for the best here but in the end it is what it is. The specialist will be the final decison maker.


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## BonMallari (Feb 7, 2008)

jtfreeman said:


> thank you Ed. You help is always much appreciated.
> 
> As far as his sit goes. He has a tight sit with both legs under his body. I just went out and had him sit three times for me. Each time there was no pronounced rotation of the leg or foot outward with the affected leg. I will continue to watch this throughout the day.
> 
> ...


Correction : YOU are the final decision maker


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

BonMallari said:


> Correction : YOU are the final decision maker


this is very true


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

If he is normal at this point and if he is not lame I would begin light work avoiding rough terrain or heavy cover, spend 2 or 3 weeks gradually increasing his work load

I posted about my Chef, TPLO One Dog's Experience

he had a similar history, mild lameness Dec. 2007 when he was 17 months old, I gave him 4 or 5 weeks of restricted activity and the lameness disappeared until Jan 2009 when he suffered a partial tear, in retrospect his initial injury was probably a strain

my wife is doing a research project to evaluate lameness with a very sophisticated computerized gait analysis system, she recorded Chef in Feb 2008 2 months after his injury when he appeared normal to me but the gait analysis revealed otherwise

she has subsequently recorded him after his first repair, both during and after rehab, and after the repair on the opposite limb both before and after rehab, his gait is now normal and his training is going well although he lost most of 2009


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

EdA said:


> If he is normal at this point and if he is not lame I would begin light work avoiding rough terrain or heavy cover, spend 2 or 3 weeks gradually increasing his work load
> 
> I posted about my Chef, TPLO One Dog's Experience
> 
> ...


Very interesting about the research project and thanks for the advice. I will post on how this all goes. He will still see a specialist ASAP regardless of any future limp or lameness observed.

Maybe I will move to between Krum and Gribble so you can be my vet.


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

If you go with surgery, it's certainly your call as to whether to just do the bad knee or to do both ----- But there is some evidence that a particular Fish Oil will help protect the "good knee" from blowing after fixing the bad knee.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Here's a recent article that shows that Fish Oil protects the good knee following CCL repair (any type of surgery). 
To make this easier to understand, AA, MMP's and uPA are the bad guys and TIMP is the good guy. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Fish oil decreases matrix metalloproteinases in knee synovia of dogs with inflammatory joint disease.Hansen RA, Harris MA, Pluhar GE, Motta T, Brevard S, Ogilvie GK, Fettman MJ, Allen KG. 
Department of Health Promotion and Human Performance, Weber State University, Ogden, UT 84408, USA. 

This study was designed to determine whether dietary fish oil affects the expression and activity of matrix metalloproteinases (MMP), tissue inhibitors of MMP-2 (TIMP-2) and urokinase plasminogen activator (uPA) in synovial fluid from dogs with spontaneously occurring stifle (knee) instability in a single hind limb resulting from acute cranial cruciate ligament (CCL) injury. Two groups of 12 dogs were fed diets from 1 week prior to surgery on the affected knee to 56 days post-surgery. The fish oil and control diets provided 90 and 45 mg, respectively, of combined eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)/kg body weight per day. Plasma and synovial fluid, from both surgical and nonsurgical knee joints, were obtained at start of the diet (-7), surgery day (0) and 7, 14, 28 and 56 days post-surgery. Plasma total EPA and DHA were significantly increased, and plasma total arachidonic acid (AA) was significantly decreased by the fish oil diet. In synovial fluid from the nonsurgical knee, fish oil treatment significantly decreased proMMP-2 expression at Days 7 and 14, and proMMP-9 expression at Day 56, and uPA activity at 28 days and significantly increased TIMP-2 expression at Days 7 and 28. There were no differences in MMP expression or activity, TIMP-2 expression and uPA activity in the surgical joint synovial fluid at any time throughout the study. These results suggest that dietary fish oil may exert beneficial effects on synovial fluid MMP and TIMP-2 equilibrium in the uninjured stifle of dogs with unilateral CCL injury. 
PMID: 17531456 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] 



.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2010)

EdA said:


> (snip)
> my wife is doing a research project to evaluate lameness with a very sophisticated computerized gait analysis system, she recorded Chef in Feb 2008 2 months after his injury when he appeared normal to me but the gait analysis revealed otherwise(snip)


Is she still over at Tuskeegee, Ed? Or has she moved in your direction? Wasn't she mainly doing rehab work/study/teaching? I can't remember. 

But Jason is within reach of her, over near me here in GA.

-K


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

We have been referred to Auburn University, Dr. Rob Gilette with our chessie. When I googled this program/vet I found a discussion of this "Gait Analysis" recording. Is this the same as the one you mentioned Dr. Ed?


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

2tall said:


> We have been referred to Auburn University, Dr. Rob Gilette with our chessie. When I googled this program/vet I found a discussion of this "Gait Analysis" recording. Is this the same as the one you mentioned Dr. Ed?





Kristie Wilder said:


> Is she still over at Tuskeegee, Ed? Or has she moved in your direction? Wasn't she mainly doing rehab work/study/teaching? I can't remember.
> 
> But Jason is within reach of her, over near me here in GA.
> 
> -K


She has been back at Auburn for several years, she teaches, does research, and physical therapy/rehabilitation

the gait analysis system is new and unique and is separate and has no relationship to what Dr. Gillette is or was doing


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Dr Ed, 

Gait Analysis sounds really, really interesting. Hope there will be success with the research and something to offer in the near future..

...and ....

Doc E, 

Wonder what the dosage of fish oil is in the study? ..do not see that information. 

Thanks, 

Judy


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## Doc E (Jan 3, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> Doc E,
> 
> Wonder what the dosage of fish oil is in the study? ..do not see that information.
> 
> ...


The article says, "The fish oil and control diets provided 90 and 45 mg, respectively, of combined eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)/kg body weight per day."



.


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

Judy Chute said:


> Dr Ed,
> 
> Gait Analysis sounds really, really interesting.
> 
> Judy


the gait analysis system has a 40K price and requires at least one well trained/qualified person, it only has application for research or large volume orthopedic speciality use

it has great value for diagnosis of lameness and the evaluation of rehabilitation


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Possibly Auburn is the answer. My wife and I both graduated from there so it would not hurt our feelings to go back for a few visits.

Not sure I will be able to drop $40k on a gait analysis study but it would be cool to see.

Update on pup. We let him have a little freedom yesterday. To be honest there was too much freedom for about 5 minutes as he played with a couple dogs. I should not have let that happen but I did. Other than that he got some controlled off leash time where he run some (not full out) Anyway, I did see him carry the leg several times and unless my eyes deceived me I saw him carry the left leg (right has been the issue) once. Now this is not completely new on the left as he carried both legs in the beginning a few times.

After we got home he showed no sign of anything again. This morning, nothing.

There is an issue with the leg(s) and I just need to get to the bottom of it and move one. I want my dog back. He is miserable and I am miserable.

I am talking to my primary vet today for advice and a referral and also talking to the first vet I saw (who did the hip x-rays) for the same thing.


Jason


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## EdA (May 13, 2003)

$40,000 is what the system costs

Dr. Ron Montgomery is a very good orthopedic surgeon at Auburn


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

EdA said:


> $40,000 is what the system costs
> 
> Dr. Ron Montgomery is a very good orthopedic surgeon at Auburn


Oh, well that makes more sense.

Thanks for the name. I just spoke with my secondary vet and he has given me a referral to an orthopedic surgeon closer to home. This individual is reportedly very good (also an Auburn man). I can't get in to see him until the 24th of this month so that is a bummer.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Appointment is set for the 24th of this month with the Ortho Surgeon. I hear he is really good. I talked to the office when making the appointment and she stated that if the drawer test does not reveal movement in the knee then he may recommend 6 weeks of "no b.s." rest. She also stated that he would be considering multiple issues, not just cruciate ligament issues. They have not ruled out pano, OCD, etc...

We will see.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, I couldn't stand the wait so I called a very highly recommended Dr. Milton in Birmingham, AL just to see when he could take a look at River. Turns out he can see him tomorrow so I am making the drive over in the morning for a 9:45 AM appointment. I hear he is extraodinary, none the less I am stressed.


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## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

jtfreeman said:


> Well, I couldn't stand the wait so I called a very highly recommended Dr. Milton in Birmingham, AL just to see when he could take a look at River. Turns out he can see him tomorrow so I am making the drive over in the morning for a 9:45 AM appointment. I hear he is extraodinary, none the less I am stressed.


Good luck. Dr. Milton is very knowledgeable and thorough. We were in there a few weeks ago. 

Be sure to get some Barbecue while youre here (Johnny Rays).


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## Miriam Wade (Apr 24, 2003)

jtfreeman said:


> Well, I couldn't stand the wait so I called a very highly recommended Dr. Milton in Birmingham, AL just to see when he could take a look at River. Turns out he can see him tomorrow so I am making the drive over in the morning for a 9:45 AM appointment. I hear he is extraodinary, none the less I am stressed.


Good luck w/ your appointment!

I just came back from my morning walk. Harvey, a BLM who is one of Finn's "play pals"(I know-I know, but he has play dates!) was out in his yard on lead w/ his owner. Had his ACL repaired a week ago. Surgery was done by Kurt Kenny who is very well respected here.

It sounds as though you are going to someone who also has a good reputation for ortho surgery, so try & relax and breathe! BUT-once pup comes home-follow the post-surgery instructions to a "T". These guys are used to a lot of exercise and once they start feeling better it's hard to convince them that they need to lay low for a while-no jumping, playing, etc. They need to heal completely w/ just leash walks until they can get to the swimming & rehab stage.

Again-Good Luck & good for you for taking good care of your dog!!

M


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

The longer you wait to get it fixed (i.e. tear completely), the more wear, tear, and damage you cause to the knee. This will maximize the development of arthritis and could cause additional damage to the miniscus.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

So far they do not think it is his knees. Possibly his lower back. He is in for x-rays now


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, I just got back home. River is playing in the next room.

Diagnosis is "we just do not know at tihs time". Three specialist poked, pulled and proded on him for two hours. He had two different views of x-rays and none of it revieled anytihng. His knees are tight, his flexability is good, he doesn't react when you push on this or push on that (well except for the lower back which they think may just be him saying "hey stop doing that"). I asked every questions I could about "what if this" or "possibly this" and each time they came back with "we check for that".

What do we do? I was given stretching, and warm up exercises and told to do some resistance walking on one of his daily walks. They then instructed me to start back walking, running and training. If the limp (or skip as they called it) gets more promonent or he starts carrying the leg then I am to call them. When this happens they will most likely tell me to work him for a weekend and then bring him in first thing Monday so hopefully they can observe him at his worst.

Possibilities - This is some nagging soft tissue injury that will go away, this is something else that will get worse and they can have a better chance of diagnosing it, or lastly I have a dog that has developed a "skip".

I don't know, but I trust them.


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## pupaloo (Jan 6, 2006)

He needs an MRI of his spine.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

that was mentioned, but they just did not feel it was necessary at this time. It is the first test they plan to do should his limp get worse.


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## Warren Flynt (Nov 14, 2007)

jtfreeman said:


> that was mentioned, but they just did not feel it was necessary at this time. It is the first test they plan to do should his limp get worse.


Went to Dr. Milton and Dr. Grant last month- used her for rehab once, and we run our pup almost everyday, either with jogging or swimming.

We were advised the same, (But have different diagnosis's) and have had nice results.

good luck.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Warren Flynt said:


> Went to Dr. Milton and Dr. Grant last month- used her for rehab once, and we run our pup almost everyday, either with jogging or swimming.
> 
> We were advised the same, (But have different diagnosis's) and have had nice results.
> 
> good luck.


They were all great and vey thorough. They felt bad that I drove all the way from Atlanta and they could not give me a specific cause of the limp. I feel much better having just gone to see them with the reputation they carry. I am wordering if they would have done an MRI had they owned one, but oh well. It would have been easy for them to tell me to go to X place and have one done real quick. It's not like I was in a hurry.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

Do you know of a good chiropractor? My old golden had a limp, nothing showed up anywhere. They wanted to do surgery, which I had a problem with since they could not tell me what was wrong. I found a chiropractor, and it turned out the back limp was caused by Whistler running into him and hurting his neck. He was never lame again. It is worth a try-at least that was how I felt when no one knew!


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## Aristillus (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm really happy for you that it's not a torn CCL and hope it turns out to be just a strain. Wouldn't it be great if our dogs could talk and tell us where it hurts? Not sure I'd be in a rush for a MRI, that's mucho bucks. Time will tell the tale. Best luck to you and your boy. Anne


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

D Osborn said:


> Do you know of a good chiropractor? My old golden had a limp, nothing showed up anywhere. They wanted to do surgery, which I had a problem with since they could not tell me what was wrong. I found a chiropractor, and it turned out the back limp was caused by Whistler running into him and hurting his neck. He was never lame again. It is worth a try-at least that was how I felt when no one knew!


That was mentioned Demi. The PT vet did give me some chiropractic stretches to do with him. If it continues but does not get worse I will continue to consult with Dr. Grant and get to the bottom of this.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Aristillus said:


> I'm really happy for you that it's not a torn CCL and hope it turns out to be just a strain. Wouldn't it be great if our dogs could talk and tell us where it hurts? Not sure I'd be in a rush for a MRI, that's mucho bucks. Time will tell the tale. Best luck to you and your boy. Anne


Thanks Anne


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

A fairly prominent orthopedic surgeon in our area advised me that an MRI on leg and even spinal issues on a dog are often not effective as a diagnostic tool because of the small sizes of the areas to be tested (i.e. knees and spinal areas). My guy told me he would be happy to do an MRI when Petey had a suspected partial tear, but doubted if it would be conclusive about a CCL tear and would probably waste a good deal of my money without telling us any more information that we had at the time.


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## fergie2 (Jan 6, 2009)

Not sure if this could help. My dog had intermittent hind leg lameness last spring/summer...was originally thought to maybe be a partial CCL tear/then the theory was possibly a spinal injury. Extensive MRIs, x-rays, tons of tests, were done...couldn't find anything. Turned out to be a pretty bad bilateral iliopsoas (muscle) injury. I was lucky enough to find a really excellent ortho vet/specialist who figured it out. What I learned is that rehab is critical and can be very time-consuming...and that some soft tissue injuries are not so easy to diagnose or very fast to heal! Best of luck.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Keep it coming, Very good information.

Update on River and his limp. We have been doing the stretches and warm up recommend and have gone on now three 30+ minute leash restricted walks. River has not carried his leg once that I have seen.


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

The more I read, the more I really thing you need to find a good chiropractor and acupuncturist-one that does laser stuff. Back, soft tissue often are hard to diagnose, and a good (and I mean really good)chiropractor kept Whistler sound his whole competative life-he really needs to go now. As does Carbon. I think more than just stretches might really help.
Having said that, those stretches should be something you do forever-I make Carbon stretch before everything now


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Can dogs get a pinched nerve in their backs like humans?


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## D Osborn (Jul 19, 2004)

jtfreeman said:


> Can dogs get a pinched nerve in their backs like humans?


Not sure if it would be the same thing, but similar. Feel your dogs back and see if you can find a hot spot-I could feel the heat go away when Whis and Carbon were adjusted. Also feel the side muscles. This is good practice anyway, as that is often how I find an injury before it gets worse. Works with horses too.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2010)

D Osborn said:


> Not sure if it would be the same thing, but similar. Feel your dogs back and see if you can find a hot spot-I could feel the heat go away when Whis and Carbon were adjusted. Also feel the side muscles. This is good practice anyway, as that is often how I find an injury before it gets worse. Works with horses too.


Ah, good stuff. JT, you could also take the money you would have spent on ACL and put him in rehab with Dr. Sherman up in NC.


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Kristie Wilder said:


> Ah, good stuff. JT, you could also take the money you would have spent on ACL and put him in rehab with Dr. Sherman up in NC.


Or I could give it to you to put a MH on him


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, it's been a further two weeks for River and his "mystery limp" (or "skip" as the Ortho Vets call it). Based on recommendations from my primary vet we kept on with the leash restricted walks but scratched the off leash morning runs just after my last post until this past weekend. During this past two weeks I have seen River "skip" once just after he jumped out of his pool and shook off. My wife saw him carry the leg on a leash walk just after he got excited looking at another dog and got into his "i'm about to spring into action pose" he was on leash so there was no taking off, just the "pose".

Yesterday he got off leash time running in the woods and again this moring. Both times he carryed the leg a few times.

This seems to have never gotten any worse since the first time we saw it 9 weeks ago, but then again it hasn't gone away. Possibly the Ortho Vets are right that we just need to get back at it and see if it works it's self out or gets worse so it can be diagnosed. That seems like a wierd way to go about it to me but, again.....again....again....what do I know.

I guess the strangest thing is when he "skips". It is at strange times. When he first did it on our walk this morning (off leash) it was after we walked for 15 minutes at heel to warm up and I released him to trot in front of me. It was still dark so he did not take off in a run, just a trot. That compared to us playing fetch with the tennis ball in the backyard where he runs hard, stops fast and turns quickly and he does not ever skip.

I don't know, maybe it is true growing pain (not pano) or maybe he just has decided he will skip from time to time. Then again maybe it is really something that we just have not found at this time.

Jason


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## MIChessies (Sep 7, 2009)

What happened to this dog????


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## jtfreeman (Jan 6, 2009)

Wow, this thread took me back. Update on River: We never truly figured it out. Possibly he had a soft tissue injury. One thing that he absolutely does is his preferred gate is a "pace". If you look up this gate in horse terms you will find that when an animal uses this gate they sometimes have to "skip" a leg to get in time when moving to a trot. River does this all the time. Maybe that is what it was all along. Seems odd but maybe. He has no lameness at all any more and we either train or run/hike pretty much every day of the week.

Anyway, River is now an AKC Master Hunter and has a few Qual JAMs to his credit. He likes to screw it up big time in the first series of the Amateur Stake and piss away placements in the fourth series of Qualifying stakes.


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## MIChessies (Sep 7, 2009)

Thanks for the update. Glad it all turned out well. I'm dealing with a similar issue and hoping to get the bad/good news on Thurs.


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

That's interesting. My dog has a skip in his gait when going from walking to trotting but I never really worried about it. I am pondering getting some preliminary x rays done in the next couple of weeks to see if there is an issue.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

If I ever find myself in this position, I'd head to the holistic vet for prolotherapy to tighten/sclarify the subluxated (or partially torn) area. Prolo sure helped my now 10.5 yo ~9 or more yrs ago when she had a major neck injury leaving her terribly subluxated. Never had to have even a touch up, and she went on to do Open Obed and agility, as well as finish her JH (that's about when it happened and at the time, she could not carry a duck or do any jumping as it was too much on the neck). Made a believer of me in that holistic tool box...

Can't remember the guy's name but I hope he chimes in to report on his dog that had it done in MI. His avatar looked like an astronaut cartoon as I recall???


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## MIChessies (Sep 7, 2009)

That's Phil Bernardi! I did read about the prolotherapy. Just decided to trust the surgeon and get the TPLO done. She's young and will heal fast.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

CodyC said:


> That's interesting. My dog has a skip in his gait when going from walking to trotting but I never really worried about it. I am pondering getting some preliminary x rays done in the next couple of weeks to see if there is an issue.


I have a JRT with a pronounced skip that's had it since she was a pup. Never seemed to bother her and she's 10 now.


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## CodyC (Jul 28, 2013)

DarrinGreene said:


> I have a JRT with a pronounced skip that's had it since she was a pup. Never seemed to bother her and she's 10 now.


That's a little but of hope. I am not saying my dog has a problem because as Darrin has stated, sometimes dogs just have certain ways they do things. Every dog is different. I think I am going to get him checked out and I will post back what the results are. We are going to drive a few hours to a specialist and get it done right. Thanks for all the advice.


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

MIChessies said:


> That's Phil Bernardi! I did read about the prolotherapy. Just decided to trust the surgeon and get the TPLO done. She's young and will heal fast.


Thanks, has Phil been on lately???


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Nope. But I am now. 

Glad your dog is doing fine. Obviously, you'll keep an eye out for any further problems.

My lab Nala can up lame in her right knee 2.5 years ago or so, and I took her to MSU vet school. Dr. Gretch Flo put her to sleep and did x-rays and manual manipulation on both knees. Both knees were diagnosed at Class I tears, but only her right knee was bothering her. 

So, I weighed my options and with WindyCanyon's (Anne) suggestion of looking in to prolotherapy, I finally decided to do prolo on her right knee.

We did 4 sessions. She's had no lameness in her right knee since the sessions. BUT, I stopped all land training since her lameness and I don't land train her at all (to keep the wear and tear down on boths knees). We do some water training and I've hunted her the last two falls over water without incident or problems (well breaking, but I can live with that compared to lame knees). 

It worked for me, but I basically retired my lab from most training and all HRC testing. 

I agree with most here that surgery is the way to go, but for me the dog ought to be young.

I'm fearful that we may be passing on the genes of dog's whose knees are blowing out at such a young age when we shouldn't be doing that. To me, knees that are going at a young age begs for a conservative approach to breeding those dogs. I know I will be checking on bloodline knee issues when I get another dog. 

Seems wolves don't have knee problems (not that I hear about at least). God knows those canines run and move like the wind - alot - and put all sorts of torque on their knees. 

We need to get our dogs - as a generalized statement - back to those kinds of knees. ;-)


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## windycanyon (Dec 21, 2007)

There he is... thanks for the update Phil. 
Glad your girl is doing well. I don't know if he was blowing smoke, but the vet who did Fuji's neck work said hes' been doing a LOT of prolo on partial tears and even subluxated hips and swears the dog is stronger than ever after it's done. Fuji sure has held together nicely after her neck repair. The vet himself had his ankle done by a human doc. I'm thinking about having someone look at my back....


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## PhilBernardi (Jul 17, 2010)

Well, I'd like to see more scientific research on prolotherapy for canines. There seems to be little interest and therefore little money for such investigations. 

I'm fairly certain there's been more research on prolo-therapy for humans.


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