# Favorite lining drills



## bobtunney (Oct 9, 2009)

Im running my first 2 labs now at the master level (hunt test) and have a lot to learn in terms of improving our precision to run with the "big dogs". We want to get better at carrying straight lines on longer distance for blinds both land and water. What are some of your favorite drills for improving on your blind work. I really appreciate whatever advice is offered so we can get better at this game.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Bob, Ladder drill... do it in a big mowed field, football field, baseball field, mowed hayfield... you get the picture. Use big white bumpers at first. lay 5 or more out in a line maybe 15-25 yards apart at first, but as the drill is learned, stretch the distance between bumpers out further and further, and then substitute orange bumpers so they don't see them all. Do the drill in the same location at first, but then move it to varied locations.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

For initial lines? 16-bumper Wagon Wheel Lining drill. For extending well carried lines? Split drills and Chinese drills. But there are more, and they are good also.

Evan


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

What's a split drill?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Guy's he said he's running master. Pretty much a dog in advanced stages of dog work. 

/Paul


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

*Cold blinds*, tough All-Age type blinds...about 1000 should do! Seriously! Nothing beats running cold blinds, running at least 3 at a time (3-peat) - run lots and lots - start with limited factors and increase the factors, challenge the dog. If you have to, follow the dog out due to distance, over time your dog will be able to be in control at a greater distance, but with out the distance you don't get the opportunity to handle like ya need to (to teach your dog to handle and for you to practice).

Drills have there place, but you have a Master level dog, so unless there is a specific issue you are trying to address (i.e. not flaring a gunner) I'd stick with *cold blinds*...

FOM

Edit - that means COLD, no repeating...if they fudge one up, no big deal, they are dogs...run another cold blind, repeat and rinse! Repeating doesn't do much, it's not pattern blinds, it's COLD blinds! They have to learn to line up with you and take that initial line. And lastly, if you have that urge to repeat a blind - then as Rex Carr said, you should be working on a perfect initial line (paraphrasing)....but because you are trying to get a good initial line in the first place, repeating doesn't help because then you will start to fuss too much....but hey what do I know?


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## i_willie12 (Apr 11, 2008)

I run lots of big long cold blinds.. But i make it a pile Run him cold at first the run another cold then another cold... Then we repeat the memory blinds to work on carrying the line and just running straight
Sometimes if he didnt run a good cold blind i will send him straight back to it I just play with it...


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

No FOM, 12 hours of wagon wheel is all he needs to do daily.

/Paul


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> No FOM, 12 hours of wagon wheel is all he needs to do daily.
> 
> /Paul


4, 8, or 16 legs?? :O


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Jennifer Henion said:


> What's a split drill?


This










The whites are about 40 yards out. The orange are planted 125-150 yards. It's run in three stages.


bobtunney said:


> What are some of your favorite drills for improving on your blind work.


Evan


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## Zman1001 (Oct 15, 2009)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Guy's he said he's running master. Pretty much a dog in advanced stages of dog work.
> 
> /Paul



Actually, you would be surprised at how many amateurs at Master level hunt tests do not care about good initial lines, of which some of those basic drills would help with.

I am on my first dog, and have Master passes, and some Q placements and RJ/Js. When I go to a Master test, there are very few amateurs who are able to either line / 1 whistle / 2 whistle a blind, but rather you see a dog who is hacked to the blind (taking every cast, just at 5 yards increments). 

It is my opinion, it is because they have skipped over the lining drills that should have been done, or did them, but did not do them long enough.

And yes, while running cold blinds are good, if you do not completely understand how to properly line your dog up, how to watch his eyes, etc. it does not matter how many cold blinds you run. You will never be able to get your dog to take and carry cast lines. 

just my opinion.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

"Running Master" = one thing.

"Actually ready to do the work effectively at Master level" = another thing, very often.

Evan


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

Zman1001 said:


> Actually, you would be surprised at how many amateurs at Master level hunt tests do not care about good initial lines, of which some of those basic drills would help with.
> 
> I am on my first dog, and have Master passes, and some Q placements and RJ/Js. When I go to a Master test, there are very few amateurs who are able to either line / 1 whistle / 2 whistle a blind, but rather you see a dog who is hacked to the blind (taking every cast, just at 5 yards increments).
> 
> ...


I think those hacked up blinds are caused by extremely tight judging corridors. I see them with both pros & amateurs. After getting dropped for being off line a few times the imaginary corridor becomes tighter & tighter. As these corridors bleed into training, attitude & enthusiasm are drained from the dog. The dogs run as if they are expecting to be stopped.


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## 2tall (Oct 11, 2006)

Mark, then how do you explain the AA Field Trial dogs that are able to keep a very straight line on very long blinds? They don't seem like like their attitude and enthusiasm have been drained. I agree with running as many cold blinds as you can after you have made a decent effort on the simpler drills just to teach mechanics. Confidence comes with success at following instructions and coming up with the prize.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm only going to say this one last thing and then I'm done with this thread - You can do all the drills you want, you can bore the dog to death with the "Death Drill March" and it will only give you a false sense of security - you are going to think that "by golly he has a great line when I do xxxx drill, but he doesn't when I run a cold blind, I'll show that 'bustard' because he should know!" And then you end up in a pickle....drill all you want, but it only has limited application....the other false sense of security you get is that you think you can "fine line" them too, because they do it on xxxx drill...so then you fiddle and fiddle with them when trying to run cold blinds and get bugging issues, popping issues, etc....once they have the basic drills down (done with transition) move on....start teaching them about cold blinds, teach them that all that drilling was for a reason, but now it's time to put it all together - yes your first 500 blinds may be off, but if the dog is going, stopping and casting you can increase the standards based on how quickly the dog puts things together....you will get a good initial line, you will get the control you need at distance, you'll be able to fine line them....OJT is better than death by drill in my opinion, which is NOT based on just a single dog....I've seen very, very young dogs run some super nice AA blinds and I promise you they did not get drilled to death...but they had run numerous cold blinds....

FOM

Edit: If the dog is a "Master Level" dog, then they should be running cold blinds....not drills.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

My own dog goes into a hole with drills and repetitive tasks. This can even be short easy marks. In the last year I've been pushing the limits, expanding everything far beyond his daily capabilities of success. He's light years ahead of where he was and he is starting to really seem to enjoy his work. He's taking pressure without complaints and I think he's beginning to enjoy the challenge. He's a completely different dog than three years ago when I was drilling because I wasn't sure what else I should do. That's the beauty of a drill. You always have something you can look up an do to occupy a training day which makes it feel productive.

I think it's more learning when you put a whole lot of the shiny wet stuff in front of a dog you just took off the truck and say "back" if you are at that level.


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## fishduck (Jun 5, 2008)

2tall said:


> Mark, then how do you explain the AA Field Trial dogs that are able to keep a very straight line on very long blinds? They don't seem like like their attitude and enthusiasm have been drained. I agree with running as many cold blinds as you can after you have made a decent effort on the simpler drills just to teach mechanics. Confidence comes with success at following instructions and coming up with the prize.


I cannot give any credible commentary involving an all age dog because I have never owned or trained such a dog. From training with people much better than myself I have learned the following. When a dog casts away from suction and is doing the right thing, it is much better to allow the dog to carry the cast. Not such a good idea to resume casting down the corridor as soon as the dog is back on line.


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## Happy Gilmore (Feb 29, 2008)

fishduck said:


> I cannot give any credible commentary involving an all age dog because I have never owned or trained such a dog. From training with people much better than myself I have learned the following. When a dog casts away from suction and is doing the right thing, it is much better to allow the dog to carry the cast. Not such a good idea to resume casting down the corridor as soon as the dog is back on line.


Unless you are trying to get the training day blue ribbon


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Zman1001 said:


> Actually, you would be surprised at how many amateurs at Master level hunt tests do not care about good initial lines, of which some of those basic drills would help with.
> 
> I am on my first dog, and have Master passes, and some Q placements and RJ/Js. When I go to a Master test, there are very few amateurs who are able to either line / 1 whistle / 2 whistle a blind, but rather you see a dog who is hacked to the blind (taking every cast, just at 5 yards increments).
> 
> ...


Not much surprises me these days. 

/Paul


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

2tall said:


> Mark, then how do you explain the AA Field Trial dogs that are able to keep a very straight line on very long blinds? They don't seem like like their attitude and enthusiasm have been drained.


I'm not Mark, but the answer IME is dogs develop the skill of running hard, long, straight, and precisely not by drilling, but by running blinds. Long blinds, on which they are allowed to carry their initial line a long way, and carry casts a long way.

Amy Dahl


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## Steve Babcock (Dec 3, 2005)

One of the best amateur handlers I have ever seen is Jack Volstedt. Jack does a lot of short cold blinds 30-60 yards to work on initial lines, maybe 9 or 10. Then he would do long walk out blinds.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

So you promise lines and casting will improve with experience?

My dog is solid on the wagon wheel, and really, she goes pretty straight on cold land blinds. But water is different. Today for instance, her initial lines were about 30 deg. off. I line up her body, but head is tilted. After a little fussing I send her anyway and let her swim for about 30 yards at the wrong angle. Then we have to do some big overs, then one good angle back for the goal.

Are you guys saying to keep this up and she will eventually straighten out?


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## roseberry (Jun 22, 2010)

Jennifer Henion said:


> So you promise lines and casting will improve with experience?
> 
> My dog is solid on the wagon wheel, and really, she goes pretty straight on cold land blinds. But water is different. Today for instance, her initial lines were about 30 deg. off. I line up her body, but head is tilted. After a little fussing I send her anyway and let her swim for about 30 yards at the wrong angle. Then we have to do some big overs, then one good angle back for the goal.
> 
> Are you guys saying to keep this up and she will eventually straighten out?


i see the rex carr quote i often read in someone's signature line as your answer:
and i paraphrase, "train for momentum and precision will arrive. train for precision and momentum will depart."

also imho, read the dog but don't sweat her too much on the line.


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks John! I think I read that somewhere, too. Funny how you can read something 20 times and think you understand it, but it's really not until you experience it that it sinks in.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> So you promise lines and casting will improve with experience?
> 
> My dog is solid on the wagon wheel, and really, she goes pretty straight on cold land blinds. But water is different. Today for instance, her initial lines were about 30 deg. off. I line up her body, but head is tilted. After a little fussing I send her anyway and let her swim for about 30 yards at the wrong angle. Then we have to do some big overs, then one good angle back for the goal.
> 
> Are you guys saying to keep this up and she will eventually straighten out?


I think you might do better if you arrange some training sessions with someone who achieves the kind of blinds you want. Big overs followed by an angle back is not the way I would approach it; I'd rather let the dog go a good long way and then try to get the blind in one angle back.

When I was learning, I had to be told again and again, "not yet--let him go." "Not yet--let him go."

Amy Dahl


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

afdahl said:


> I think you might do better if you arrange some training sessions with someone who achieves the kind of blinds you want. Big overs followed by an angle back is not the way I would approach it; I'd rather let the dog go a good long way and then try to get the blind in one angle back.
> 
> *When I was learning, I had to be told again and again, "not yet--let him go." "Not yet--let him go."*Amy Dahl


I have said this very thing to many handlers over the years...Dogs learn by doing ...If the initial line is going straight or the dog is carrying a cast, let them run ...I like to let young dogs run for some distance before making a change...Getting the bird is not the issue....And ..the big angle back cast is the correct cast like Amy said....Run cold blinds and be paitent ..Things will improve if you don't try for perfection too fast...Drills are for teaching some fundamental behaiors...cold blinds are where all the learning is applied...Steve S


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## steve schreiner (Jun 15, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> So you promise lines and casting will improve with experience? YES...
> 
> My dog is solid on the wagon wheel, and really, she goes pretty straight on cold land blinds. But water is different. Today for instance, her initial lines were about 30 deg. off.It seems her launch angle was off .... if the dog was swimming straight I would have let her carry it for some distance...Has the dog had a no-no drill ? If so you should be able to recall and resend to tell the dog that was not the correct line..Experience with recalls is important to avoid getting into trouble with confussion on the dogs part..Just as you did in the wagon wheel drills... I line up her body, but head is tilted. After a little fussing I send her anyway and let her swim for about 30 yards at the wrong angle. Then we have to do some big overs, then one good angle back for the goal.
> 
> Are you guys saying to keep this up and she will eventually straighten out?


 YES... Steve S


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Go back and read Lainees post #6.

dog gets better, and so do you.

will be working on my 3 or so of my 1000 tomorrow

hope Lainee is there


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Like Amy said. Doing the overs creates a dog that ping pongs blinds. Let them run, use literal casting and the corridors will become tighter over time.

/Paul


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

MooseGooser said:


> Go back and read Lainees post #6.
> 
> dog gets better, and so do you.
> 
> ...


we will miss ya Gooser...it's PPRCs HT, I got to support that!

and your young one is one of those examples of a "baby" doing really well on AA blinds!


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

afdahl said:


> I think you might do better if you arrange some training sessions with someone who achieves the kind of blinds you want. Big overs followed by an angle back is not the way I would approach it; I'd rather let the dog go a good long way and then try to get the blind in one angle back.
> 
> When I was learning, I had to be told again and again, "not yet--let him go." "Not yet--let him go."
> 
> Amy Dahl


I don't disagree with the training sessions idea. But on the advice so many are giving to "let the dog go" but not give big overs is confusing. The reason I had to give a big over was because I let the dog go but in the wrong angle putting her at a point where a big over was required to get her back to the blind. I sent her on the wrong line so as to not be too fussy. The only way I can think of to resolve those two things is to give the over. She is confident going out and will roll as long as I let her, but then to get back to the bumper she needs a big ole over. I guess I'm doing it wrong...Does this make sense?


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

Jennifer Henion said:


> I don't disagree with the training sessions idea. But on the advice so many are giving to "let the dog go" but not give big overs is confusing. The reason I had to give a big over was because I let the dog go but in the wrong angle putting her at a point where a big over was required to get her back to the blind. I sent her on the wrong line so as to not be too fussy. The only way I can think of to resolve those two things is to give the over. She is confident going out and will roll as long as I let her, but then to get back to the bumper she needs a big ole over. I guess I'm doing it wrong...Does this make sense?


how long are these blinds?


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Marty Lee said:


> how long are these blinds?


This one was a water blind and complicated by the shape of the pond. The bumper was just to the right of a spit of land and to the left (the way she was headed) would have put land between her and the cove where the blind was. The blind was about 65 yards of all swimming water. If I had let her keep rolling, she would have been lost or have had to get up on land and back into water to get the bumper. We are early in the cold water blind arena. Didn't want her up on the island and try to get her back down into the cove. 

But I get your point... I shouldn't have set up that way in the first place if it required such early casting. Should probably go for more open water -


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## Carol Cassity (Aug 19, 2004)

I think drills have their place no matter the level of the dog. A drill, in and of itself, should have a purpose. It should be used to advance a skill set, develop communication or teach a concept. There are some drills that I come back to periodically – 16 bumper WW, push-pull and swing with the gun come to mind. There are some once I am done, no looking back. You must have balance in training. Some dogs like drills, others hate them. No matter what – there should be a purpose to why you are doing something. So are drills useful? Yes. Should you just do drills? Of course not. But drills do have their place and I think the communication and the teamwork building aspect of a drill should not be overlooked. 

I also agree with run long blinds - 150 yards plus. The dog has to have a chance to "enjoy the cast" and build momentum. Every whistle communicates "wrong" to a dog. If you blow too many whistles - the dog is "wrong" a lot and never gets a chance to be "right".


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## Tim West (May 27, 2003)

When I was retired and trained a lot I went once or twice a week to 160 acres I own that has big water and wide open fields. No trees, just grass and water. I ran cold blinds, three at a time, none less than 300 yards and many 500 yards. I found that my dogs took literal casts very well, and momentum was excellent. Initial lines were good because they knew they were going to go a damn long way before I blew a whistle. I also knew that every cast must be a literal cast, because most folks can't make a dog take an over at 400 yards. Big walking casts might get you more, but basically, you better be thinking when you handle, because if you get off much at 500 yards or so, you're screwed. 

We also had big water and a killer water blind that had a big, tall, high point. These points are the hardest in the world, especially when you are asking your dog to get off of it and take a cast into open water and swim another 100 yards. 

I was having trouble getting a dog I had named Archie to get off a point. I started doing over drills on my little pond at the house and screwed him up good. We failed a couple of trials when he wouldn't get off a point.. I was training with Scott Carruth and Pat Kenney and I was trying to get Archie off that point. I would get him on it, give the cast, and he would bail to land. Tweet, burn, handle to the point, try again. Same scenario happened in three different ways. Finally, after three failures with burns attached, we got him on the point, and he flew off that sucker like he was shot out of a cannon. Scott was telling me the whole time in this exercise that Archie was in "muddy water" and he needed to see the clear water. When he understood, that was it. He never failed to get off one again, and was the best I have every had at it. This point was 250 yards away from the start of the blind, off a high cliff at our place. 

The pond hasn't had water in it for three years, but it does now. I expect my dogs to get better, and to start running much better blinds. Sorry for the ramble, but big is better if you can find the place to do it.....


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> he goes pretty straight on cold land blinds. But water is different. Today for instance, her initial lines were about 30 deg. off. I line up her body, but head is tilted. After a little fussing I send her anyway and let her swim for about 30 yards at the wrong angle.


Jenifer, contrary to some of the advice you have received in this thread, I would set up an angle entry tune up drill and run it about 5 days in a row or until he's running it smoothly. After that first angle entry tune up, I'd set up another one and run it until he was smooth on the new one.


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Carol Cassity said:


> I think drills have their place no matter the level of the dog. A drill, in and of itself, should have a purpose. It should be used to advance a skill set, develop communication or teach a concept. There are some drills that I come back to periodically – 16 bumper WW, push-pull and swing with the gun come to mind. There are some once I am done, no looking back. You must have balance in training. Some dogs like drills, others hate them. No matter what – there should be a purpose to why you are doing something. So are drills useful? Yes. Should you just do drills? Of course not. But drills do have their place and I think the communication and the teamwork building aspect of a drill should not be overlooked.
> 
> I also agree with run long blinds - 150 yards plus. The dog has to have a chance to "enjoy the cast" and build momentum. Every whistle communicates "wrong" to a dog. If you blow too many whistles - the dog is "wrong" a lot and never gets a chance to be "right".


Sanity is really a beautiful thing. The above is just that; sanity. It is, after all, _balance_ that best trains happy efficient dogs.

Evan


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## Criquetpas (Sep 14, 2004)

afdahl said:


> I think you might do better if you arrange some training sessions with someone who achieves the kind of blinds you want. Big overs followed by an angle back is not the way I would approach it; I'd rather let the dog go a good long way and then try to get the blind in one angle back.
> 
> When I was learning, I had to be told again and again, "not yet--let him go." "Not yet--let him go."
> 
> Amy Dahl


Excellent advice, I too many years ago had a little bird on my shoulder, saying let him go. let him go, etc. I thank my mentors for the advice.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

Jennifer Henion said:


> But I get your point... I shouldn't have set up that way in the first place if it required such early casting. Should probably go for more open water -


Good insight. When you are working on "learning to handle in water," featureless open water is an asset. Features like spits and coves (a) can induce the dog to go in the wrong direction, and (b) can complicate the picture, requiring a lot of extra casts.

Carol made an excellent point: every whistle tells the dog, "wrong." In building confidence, it's good to try to use few of them.

Try to plan your training sessions so that you can focus on the intended issue--try to foresee features of terrain, wind, shoreline configuration, etc. that may bring in other issues that will distract from the planned lesson. This will help your dog learn (note--don't hold yourself to an impossible standard on this; we all get surprised sometimes).

Amy Dahl


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## Jennifer Henion (Jan 1, 2012)

Great information and wisdom. It is so appreciated and such good timing for me.

Howard, I too was thinking I should do a version of a water wagon wheel in a couple of different spots. Glad you mentioned it.

Amy, thanks for reminding me to pay attention to the surroundings and make sure it gels with the day's lesson plan. That's a hard one for me. I tend to jump steps when I get a little success.


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