# Kudos to EE.



## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

After the recent spate of issues with limited MH entries, late scratches after the EE office closes, spots going unfilled, etc, I figured give some credit where it's due, when it happens the other way. I've had several of mine entered in multiple MH for months, because of the Limited issue and the spaces filling fast. I've scratched some early on or just before the day of closing to give others chances to enter, but Monday, didn't scratch until after 8 pm and felt bad that the club would lose the entries and someone else could have run. I was surprised to get an almost immediate acknowledgement from Tara King at EE, the scratches made and the two entries filled by others before closing. I don't know if that's how it will continue to work or just happened to be someone working late, but, it made a difference for multiple people, so, thank you, Tara & EE!


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

EE appreciates your comments & I'll make sure Tara knows too. Tara is doing her best but can't work 24/7 so sometimes clubs will still close events with less than a full/limited field. Unfortunately these limited master issues have increased Tara's workload substantially as currently scratches can only be processed manually by email or phone call to the EE office. The ultimate issue is that with the advent of the limited master combined with the current Master Nat'l qualification interest, there simply are more who want to enter events than there are available slots for entry - in certain local areas of the country. EE is in the process of trying to automate the scratch process that will make Tara's workload more reasonably sustainable & at the same time help insure that clubs with limited stakes are able to close with a full field. The core issue - having a supply of limited master slots that will reasonably meet demand, is being considered & addressed by the RHTAC & AKC.

The EE task to automate the scratch process, making it an on-line entrant operation that can be accomplished 24/7 without EE support involvement, is reasonably simple in concept but somewhat more complicated in terms of software coding, given the current EE software architecture. EE is evaluating the process and possible solutions at this time and hopes to have implementation within the next several months. If the RHTAC & the AKC mandate rule changes related to the limited master stake, EE will attempt to address those as well to the extent that such changes would affect the club event setup & entry operations.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Granddaddy said:


> EE appreciates your comments & I'll make sure Tara knows too. Tara is doing her best but can't work 24/7 so sometimes clubs will still close events with less than a full/limited field. Unfortunately these limited master issues have increased Tara's workload substantially as currently scratches can only be processed manually by email or phone call to the EE office. The ultimate issue is that with the advent of the limited master combined with the current Master Nat'l qualification interest, there simply are more who want to enter events than there are available slots for entry - in certain local areas of the country. EE is in the process of trying to automate the scratch process that will make Tara's workload more reasonably sustainable & at the same time help insure that clubs with limited stakes are able to close with a full field. The core issue - having a supply of limited master slots that will reasonably meet demand, is being considered & addressed by the RHTAC & AKC.
> 
> The EE task to automate the scratch process, making it an on-line entrant operation that can be accomplished 24/7 without EE support involvement, is reasonably simple in concept but somewhat more complicated in terms of software coding, given the current EE software architecture. EE is evaluating the process and possible solutions at this time and hopes to have implementation within the next several months. If the RHTAC & the AKC mandate rule changes related to the limited master stake, EE will attempt to address those as well to the extent that such changes would affect the club event setup & entry operations.


I am a techno tard; however my IT guy says that it should be a simple fix for EE to process scratches and show the new opening almost instantaneously.
Makes sense to me in light of how inventory control systems routinely function


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> After the recent spate of issues with limited MH entries, late scratches after the EE office closes, spots going unfilled, etc, I figured give some credit where it's due, when it happens the other way. I've had several of mine entered in multiple MH for months, because of the Limited issue and the spaces filling fast. I've scratched some early on or just before the day of closing to give others chances to enter, but Monday, didn't scratch until after 8 pm and felt bad that the club would lose the entries and someone else could have run. I was surprised to get an almost immediate acknowledgement from Tara King at EE, the scratches made and the two entries filled by others before closing. I don't know if that's how it will continue to work or just happened to be someone working late, but, it made a difference for multiple people, so, thank you, Tara & EE!


Let me get this straight. So you enter just in case you might want to run an event then scratch at the last moment when you decide otherwise. I think I understand the problem of limited entries. Things that make me go hmmmm.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

duk4me said:


> Let me get this straight. So you enter just in case you might want to run an event then scratch at the last moment when you decide otherwise. I think I understand the problem of limited entries. Things that make me go hmmmm.


EE is seeing a substantial increase in scratches for HTs with limited master stakes about 10x compared to other stakes and events.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Another thing why would it take you to wait till the last minute to scratch? This is a very confusing thread. Bitches come in heat twice a year and that is the only reason I can think of for legitimately scratching other than injury.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Nope, I don't scratch at the last minute on a whim. I'm not wealthy and don't like tossing entry fees nor the EE surcharge, which happens, scratch or no scratch. Considering I'm entering 2-3 dogs each test, that ain't pocket change for me. After not getting in last summer with some Limited MH tests, this summer I entered the ones I normally run when they opened, which was months ago for some of them, including one in Sept. If that's how it's going to work with some tests filling up asap, you bet I'm going to get my dogs in if I can, what the heck else are people supposed to do when a test opens in May for August and September, is limited to 60 dogs and fills up in hours? Pray there might be an opening at the last minute, after I've spent the summer trying to get my dogs up to snuff? I get 5 months, May-Sept, to train after brutal winters of no work and try to get some passes. I didn't make the rule change, but I have to live with it if I want a chance to run. Now when it comes to closing day, there are various reasons I may have for removing those entries. I may not have been able to train because mother was in hospital, or the weather sucked or the bitches came in heat or I chose to run a Qual vs MH, none of which are anyone's business but mine. I try to scratch early enough to allow others to fill the spaces. Yes, there are multiple issues with Limited Entries, some of us are trying to get our dogs in best we can and still be fair to others. If it makes you feel any better, I did remove the one dog's entries for the next few tests way ahead of time, because he's only going to be running Qual for now. Hope that meets your approval.


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## Huff (Feb 11, 2008)

Good response Kim, don't hate the player hate the game. Just playing by the rules.

Russell


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Scratching the day of is no different than entering the day of like we did before there were limits. Lots of people didn't enter until day of closing, because they didn't feel the need to tie up funds any further ahead than necessary or because they weren't sure the dog was ready, or were waiting on some other info such as work schedule, etc. Now with Limits, we have to make decisions way ahead of time, and I don't have a crystal ball to tell me in May what's going to happen in 3-4 months, so sometimes, the final decision still comes on closing day. Now it just costs that extra $4.50 per entry to have that option. Not my first choice but right now, it's my only choice.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Part of the solution or part of the problem?

/PaulPaul


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## badbullgator (Dec 20, 2004)

Isn't this exactly what every body is hitching about?


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## Brad B (Apr 29, 2004)

I think his point was scratching so late in the day not that she entered so far in advance.


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## Pattie (Jan 2, 2004)

Granddaddy, if EE makes an upgrade and needs testers. I will gladly volunteer to help. I am a BSA with 25 plus years under by belt.

My test can be done of a variety of devices:
old clunker Dell running XP (yes there are some around still chugging along)
dell laptop W7
ipad
iphone

Pattie


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm with Kim on this one. I have a bitch I bred. I wanted to run her this fall, but since entries opened so early, in order to make sure we would get in I had to enter her. I didn't know until yesterday that she was pregnant, I had to enter months ago to hold a spot. In the past, I would have just waited until I knew if she were pregnant or not. But now, if you want to finish a title, you've got to get in as soon as you see it's open or you are SOL. 

I'm sure there are others here with similar problems that want to play the game.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

badbullgator said:


> Isn't this exactly what every body is hitching about?


Part of the hitching is because if there are late scratches, EE wasn't open to handle it and spaces didn't get filled that might have, thus the request for online capability of doing so. The close date and time is what it is and everyone can cancel or enter right up until that time, if there are spaces. Either change the close time or make some others changes as been suggested, limited entries per handler, standardized opening time so all get a chance to get in vs 20-30 dogs on a pro truck in the first few minutes of opening, but to get my dogs in, I have to play with what's available and I know damn well you guys would too if in the same situation. You guys have a personal gripe against me and want to have one of your internet group bully sessions, muddy a thread and get it locked, have at it. But EE is trying to mitigate at least one of the issues by allowing later scratches to be processed in a timely fashion. The club I scratched from was able to fill the two spaces, which it did within minutes, and I switched my dogs to two other MH spots that opened late in a different test that also offers O/H Q, so I can drive and get the most bang for my buck with 3 dogs instead of 2. Don't know who scratched late to open the spots at the other test, or why, and don't care, just glad it worked via EE and both clubs got entries.


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Another thing why would it take you to wait till the last minute to scratch? This is a very confusing thread. Bitches come in heat twice a year and that is the only reason I can think of for legitimately scratching other than injury.


So, a dog that titles out on Sunday, and is signed up for the test that closes on Monday....person doesn't have a chance to get on the computer until 6,7,8 pm at night...You are allowed to scratch up until 11:59 PM to get your money refunded...after that, you can scratch and roll the dice on whether you get anything back...who are you to say why a person should scratch their dog...ever hear of family emergencies...:roll:

I concur with you Kim,...I scratched a dog a week ago Monday, and Tara responded within 15 minutes to say that everything was taken care of...nice work EE....

Labs


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## Jeff Brezee (Nov 21, 2012)

I scratched a few weeks ago. Called the hunt test secretary and they hadn't gotten to it for a day. I then called EE and Tara took care of it within minutes! Thanks Tara!


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

Tara is great , hope they pay her enough for all her hard work. She reponds to any questions right away.


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## Pam Spears (Feb 25, 2010)

I appreciate Kim's attempt to post a compliment to EE for trying to do a better job. The game is changing right now and it's going to be a little rocky until everyone figures out how to deal with it. I doubt Kim waited until late in the day on purpose in order to stiff the club: of course earlier is always better, but life gets in the way. Her spots were filled, the club didn't take a hit, no harm done.


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

Whether EE can get online scratches set up or not, perhaps have a policy that if you are going to scratch and get a full refund you have to do so 24 hours before the close, not by the close as is the case now. That then gives EE a full work day to process scratches, or after online scratches goes live, a full day for folks that want to get in to keep an eye on things and hopefully get a slot. I very much agree with Kim that you have to enter early just to make sure you have a spot. In my case, I've also entered two tests that are on weekends that closer tests are available but not yet open. Once the closer tests open up, if I get in I'll scratch the original two tests that I'm in now. I will do that as soon as I'm in the closer tests, so those two spots will be open for other entries well before the close so I'm not harming either the club or other handlers and EE makes an extra few bucks off me. I wish I didn't have to do that, but if I didn't, and then didn't get in the closer tests, I'm sitting at home those weekends.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Labs said:


> So, a dog that titles out on Sunday, and is signed up for the test that closes on Monday....person doesn't have a chance to get on the computer until 6,7,8 pm at night...You are allowed to scratch up until 11:59 PM to get your money refunded...after that, you can scratch and roll the dice on whether you get anything back...who are you to say why a person should scratch their dog...ever hear of family emergencies...:roll:
> 
> I concur with you Kim,...I scratched a dog a week ago Monday, and Tara responded within 15 minutes to say that everything was taken care of...nice work EE....
> 
> Labs


My question is about people with multiple scratches from multiple test that enter just in case they may want to run. I feel for the poor guy that can only afford to run a few test a year and has to plan them months in advance due to family or work and is left out in the cold due to late scratches. Clear enough. Who am I to say? I'm Tim Bockmon and I can say anything I want Lab. God I hate talking to dogs.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Well, Tim, if that's your issue, then feel free to help a poor brother (or sister) out. Get on the horn, find out when said tests are going to open, if you can, otherwise, spend the time to monitor EE for when said test might open. Then be ready and able to get that poor guy's dog entered as soon as entries open. Problem solved. It's what the rest of us are having to do, at least until the kinks get worked out by the powers that be. I'm certainly not going to apologize for being on the ball and having the wherewithal to enter my dogs if I choose to. This is a game you pay to play. 

Amusing, how those not being impacted themselves by a problem are able to offer so much criticism of those actually dealing with it.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

Rainmaker said:


> Well, Tim, if that's your issue, then feel free to help a poor brother (or sister) out. Get on the horn, find out when said tests are going to open, if you can, otherwise, spend the time to monitor EE for when said test might open. Then be ready and able to get that poor guy's dog entered as soon as entries open. Problem solved. It's what the rest of us are having to do, at least until the kinks get worked out by the powers that be. I'm certainly not going to apologize for being on the ball and having the wherewithal to enter my dogs if I choose to. This is a game you pay to play.
> *
> Amusing, how those not being impacted themselves by a problem are able to offer so much criticism of those actually dealing with it*.


Ain't that the truth!! 

if you have to enter 3 months advance of the test, enter. The fact that you are trying your best to both run a dog(s) and let others run if things happen and you need to scratch shows you care and are trying your best to work with the system we currently have.

PS. No limited with us next month Kim. Hope to see you down here. And congrats on the Q 3rd.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

Thanks, Chuck, I hope to run Northern Flight, it's one of my favorites. At least, it's on the list, the rest is up to the girls and their hormones. The boys are going to stick with the white coat stuff, for the rest of this year or as long as the checkbook holds out.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

So Kim how many scratches do you have this year? No problem with legitimate scratches btw.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

What's a legitimate scratch? 

Feel free to look up my dogs and count for yourself. The ones I'm running in MH this summer are Rainmaker's Rough Ride, SH, Rainmaker's Early Bird Special, SH. Rainmaker's Southern Gamble is running Qual. Oh, Rainmaker's Working Class Payday is running Derby, but, since there are no limits in FT entries, guess that doesn't matter.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> What's a legitimate scratch?
> 
> Feel free to look up my dogs and count for yourself. The ones I'm running in MH this summer are Rainmaker's Rough Ride, SH, Rainmaker's Early Bird Special, SH. Rainmaker's Southern Gamble is running Qual. Oh, Rainmaker's Working Class Payday is running Derby, but, since there are no limits in FT entries, guess that doesn't matter.


Well I thought you would save me the trouble since I'm sure you know what you have scratched this year.


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## suepuff (Aug 25, 2008)

duk4me said:


> Well I thought you would save me the trouble since I'm sure you know what you have scratched this year.


Who cares? It's only Kim's business. Sheesh.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

duk4me said:


> Well I thought you would save me the trouble since I'm sure you know what you have scratched this year.


You appear very concerned about the impact of my entering/removing entries, though I don't know that it impacts anyone as much as it does my bank account, but I'll summarize for you regardless: 

Minnesota Iron Range, June 28, Sat test only, 120 dog limit but didn’t come close to filling, I “scratched” well before the closing day. You can look up that test to see who did scratch after the closing and express your concerns to them, I don’t think I, or anyone else, screwed anyone out of an entry at that event however.

Blackhawk, 7/11. That one I did scratch the day before the test. I ran Wager in the Qual but realized after introducing “HT stuff” the previous week that running him in a MH was not a good idea, let alone on the same day as the Qual. I will gladly eat $$, and apparently twist some people’s undies for scratching, before I ruin a perfectly nice young dog running him in the wrong venue at the wrong time. Other one came in heat the day before. That was a 60 dog limit, there were 4 scratches after the close, 2 of which were mine, so yes, someone maybe didn’t get in a spot. I do know, however, that Ann Heise, being the superorganized and good person she is, posted on RTF and FB that there were 4 MH spaces available as of the afternoon of closing day. Those spots did fill. 

Chippewa Valley, 7/19. 60 dog limit. I “scratched” the dogs well before the closing date once I confirmed my MH Temper was pregnant and due the 20th. I risked running the Qual with Wager on the 18th, with my husband home watching the dogs, but felt running MH on the 19th was pushing my luck and didn’t want to scratch on short notice if Temper had pups early, for both the club’s sake and my own wallet. Again, you may check the results on EE to see who scratched after the closing, cost someone an entry, and express your opinions to them. 

Duluth Retriever Club, 8/1. That’s the one I switched my entries at 8 p.m. on day of closing to the Watopa MH when some openings appeared there, so that I could run the Qual there with Wager as well. Watopa was 120 dog limit and filled very quickly early on, 4 entries opened up on day of closing that I saw in the evening when I logged on, and made the decision to switch tests. I don’t know who scratched those entries, but there were still 2 spots open after closing. Perhaps you want to contact that club to discover those culprits, if known. Duluth was a 60 dog limit that opened later than Watopa but still filled rather quickly. My two spots were filled within minutes of Tara removing my entries. So, hopefully no one got too hosed out of a space that weekend. 

Maggie & Bounce are entered in a couple more Limited MH, Hennepin & Skunk River. I removed Wager from Hennepin MH previously, for reasons already stated, he’ll be running the Qual there, his MH space was filled quickly. 

Disclaimer: I received no advance/private knowledge of the opening of these tests, except one general text sent out on one test the day of, I think. I am a tax-paying, home-owning US Citizen born and bred, as is my husband of 22 years, we've both worked since we were kids, and we have some discretionary income with which I play dog games. Mea culpa.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Rainmaker said:


> You appear very concerned about the impact of my entering/removing entries, though I don't know that it impacts anyone as much as it does my bank account, but I'll summarize for you regardless:
> 
> Minnesota Iron Range, June 28, Sat test only, 120 dog limit but didn’t come close to filling, I “scratched” well before the closing day. You can look up that test to see who did scratch after the closing and express your concerns to them, I don’t think I, or anyone else, screwed anyone out of an entry at that event however.
> 
> ...


Dang I don't speak Spanish.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Well I did my best to start a good ol rtf slapfest. lol No offense Kim just trying to add a little excitement.


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## yellowlabfan (Jan 27, 2009)

I only have one dog to enter in Hunt Tests and I enter Master Hunter events months in advance just to make sure that I can get a spot. My lab is a female so its a crap shoot as to when she will come in heat because she has never had a regular six month cycle due to daily training year round. I am running in a Master next weekend that I was lucky to even get into when the event opened up for entries in late May. I have not had to scratch so far this year but if I had to at the last minute due to a health issue or heat cycle then I would. I wish that the AKC would come up with a new way of signing up for the Hunt Tests that would allow the hosting clubs to guarantee spots for the people that are working at the Hunt Tests ( giving up their free time without pay) because they enjoy the sport and are willing to help throw birds, shoot fliers or any other task that needs to be done. It would be fairly easy to ask club members ahead of time if they wanted to run their dog in the hunt test then save that many spots for the members. If the members didn't use the spot that was saved for them then they wouldn't be allowed a guaranteed spot at the next event held at the club ( unless a female was in season or some other valid health issue in writing from their vet. ) Just my two cents worth.


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## Rainmaker (Feb 27, 2005)

I agree, Tom. The Limited entry was a good and necessary tool implemented for clubs to use. That we have so many MH entries is also a good sign for HT. However, we are dealing with the fallout now. There are various viable solutions to help ensure everyone has a fair shot at getting entered, which to me, includes a publicized opening day/time, possibly limited entries per actual handler for the first 1-2 days, so many allotted spots for workers at a club's discretion, etc etc. Some of which could be voluntarily used by a club choosing the Limited Entry option, or not, but at least have some tools that a club can use, if they choose, to mitigate some of these issues. Not every club minds having a huge pro presence, for example, so it should be up to the clubs, not a mandatory sweeping set of rules that will again impact many maybe in the wrong way. More rules mean more policing and more complications, which also adds a burden to the clubs. 

Bottom line, a fair shake at entering for everyone would be nice, and I feel that a publicly known date/time of opening, and maybe how entries are taken en masse, or not, would go a ways towards that, without a club having to take on the job of counting entries per handler, or which worker showed up to actually work and use their space, or workers fighting over the spots available and the favoritism, or impression thereof, that could ensue. 

EE is working on the late scratch issue from the sounds of it, which also helps, especially the clubs not losing out on spaces that could have filled on closing day. Every club expects some scratches after the close, that's part of the budgeted expenses and why there is a fee for non-health related scratches, to at least cover the birds ordered, etc. I absolutely do not expect a club to refund an entry fee otherwise. I'd rather the clubs remain solvent and willing to put on tests.


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## SWIPER (Sep 24, 2006)

I think an easy solution to entering hunt test is that the owner should have to enter the dog. That way everyone has a fare chance to enter. As far as scratching on the closing, I think you should have to scratch 1 hour prior to EE closing during business hours, so people can enter after they are closed on the last day of the closing.


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## Steve Shaver (Jan 9, 2003)

Sorry but this is how I feel


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## DonBrou (Nov 14, 2012)

Maybe limit scratches to a defined set of parameters, (ie heat cycle w/vet's signature, injury w/vet's signature, etc.) or you forfeit all or a percentage of entry fees. Also put a deadline to scratch. Maybe 72 hours prior to closing. Also charge a scratch fee for EE to monitor and process. This would probably give everyone a fair shake on getting their dogs in.


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## SWIPER (Sep 24, 2006)

It's too easy to get a vet excuse now days. I can call my vet and tell them my dog is in heat and get an excuse.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Just a question about how it works on entry 
When i enter my dog via EE my card is charged right then. 
How does the VIP program work? My understanding is the entry is just like the regular entry but when do they pay. Meaning if you enter months early does VIP pay now or before the event? 
That could help if everyone paid at the same time. 
Just wondering 
Dk


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## DonBrou (Nov 14, 2012)

SWIPER said:


> It's too easy to get a vet excuse now days. I can call my vet and tell them my dog is in heat and get an excuse.


Okay, then a forfeiture of entry fees. That was an easy one.


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## downbirds (Jan 19, 2012)

Limiting scratch times, to even a week min. before, doesn't help the working person, who has to sometimes schedule time off of work to be able to compete. The problem is people entering 10, or more dogs in one push of a button. And then scratch a large portion of them. Take Missouri Valleys Spring hunt test, as of 5/6/14 one person signed up 17 dogs ran 0, one entered 10 dogs, ran 4, one entered 11 dogs ran 6. I think out of a 60 dog limit, 56 was the final count entered. When it filled in a day. Now you can say that there were spots available, but when you have to plan time off, weeks in advance, and they don't scratch till a week or less out, those spots will go unfilled. And not only the club loses out, but also a few working people that would like to run the venue supposedly setup for them (hunt test) lose. At some point we have to find a workable solution to this problem. Or the number of new people coming into, and staying in the sport, is going to drop to a point were we have no one left to do the work at these test. To me when you enter a large number of dogs scratching 50-100% of your entries more than once, is borderline unsportsmanlike IMHO. There are reasons that come up, that would require someone to withdrawal from an entire event, but when we see certain people that scratch multiple dogs, event after event it gets old. By making a limit on the number of dogs that can be entered with the push of a button, along with posting the opening date and time, allows for some of the working people to squeak in to a few spots, that would have filled when 3 or 4 people push the button, filling the limit with 10 -20 dogs each. Or as a club we can go back to being there for the working person, and not be MN clubs. I guess if you work your clubs event and couldn't get in, and still choose to be a MN club, well then it is what it is, for now anyway. Me I'm more than willing to take a few days off to work, and enjoy dogs with a bunch of working folks, that want to enjoy their dogs. But not so much, so a couple of people can run all the dogs. Many of the guys in our club are beginning to feel the same way. We talked going MN but every year more and more of us are against it. And we made a little money so why bother. Now if we can get some new people involved to get the JR and SR numbers up we will be all right. Just my two cents.


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Dave Kress said:


> Just a question about how it works on entry
> When i enter my dog via EE my card is charged right then.
> How does the VIP program work? My understanding is the entry is just like the regular entry but when do they pay. Meaning if you enter months early does VIP pay now or before the event?
> That could help if everyone paid at the same time.
> ...


The VIP program was originated to encourage pros to use EE when it was first started years ago & to help EE avoid credit card (cc) charges. Credit card fees consume virtually all of the now $4.50 service fee charged to all users. And as entry fees increase EE's working capital margins are deceased. VIP users pay by check & usually on a basis that more coincides with how they collect training fees from their clients. Initially VIP users also saved $.50 per entry. This savings to the VIP users was eliminated in 2008 but the program was maintained because it saved EE over $20K per year in cc charges avoided. VIP customers are limited to pros and amateurs who enter a lot of dogs because of potential collection issues (& who pay promptly). To maintain a VIP account, the users must pay on time. EE has a very simple way to ensure that VIP users pay their bills - EE won't continue to accept entries from VIP users who are late. When VIP users pay relative to the time of entry is virtually meaningless IMO because a pro's livelihood depends upon training & running dogs. Therefore it's the pro's business to make sure he gets his dogs entered - his business depends upon it. Pros just pass along their costs to clients as they incur the costs. Therefore the VIP program, IMO, has virtually nothing to do with entry habits & everything to do with the nature of a "limited" master stake. For example on the FT side (& HTs when there are no limits), pros are notorious for entering events on the evening of event closing because there is no threat of not getting in. So to eliminate the VIP program will do nothing for the entry demands of a "limited" master yet add over $20K to EE's operating costs. If that happens EE will have to raise revenue somewhere else to cover the loss & that won't be good for anybody. And before some think EE is a moneymaker, EE has shown a profit in only one year since it origination.


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## Chuck Wagner (Dec 9, 2009)

SWIPER said:


> *I think an easy solution to entering hunt test is that the owner should have to enter the dog. That way everyone has a fare chance to enter.* As far as scratching on the closing, I think you should have to scratch 1 hour prior to EE closing during business hours, so people can enter after they are closed on the last day of the closing.


Great suggestion. This would eliminate a single pro being able to wipe out half the stake with a single click of the mouse, but it also wouldn't keep that pro from showing up with a full truck of dogs and making the clubs that depend on that support happy. The only limiting factor would be that the primary registered owner be the one to make the entry on EE. It's fair across the board. Everyone is on an even playing field.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Chuck Wagner said:


> Great suggestion. This would eliminate a single pro being able to wipe out half the stake with a single click of the mouse, but it also wouldn't keep that pro from showing up with a full truck of dogs and making the clubs that depend on that support happy. The only limiting factor would be that the primary registered owner be the one to make the entry on EE. It's fair across the board. Everyone is on an even playing field.


That is pretty common, if not the norm. Around here it is rare for the pros to enter the client dogs. Client enters, dog runs. Why not just come out and ban the 3 or 4 pros who do this? It is certainly not a widespread problem.

I wish EE would make it *easier* to enter multiple dogs in multiple events at the same time. Just entered three dogs in three different trials and it would have been a heck of a lot easier if I could have done all three at once instead of entering in all the information for each trial.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

Good explanation David on the VIP but when do Vip users pay. 
Say we enter a ht 5 months before the close. When is that payment due for Vip users. I know my payment is done when i hit the button "send" 
Dk


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Dave Kress said:


> Good explanation David on the VIP but when do Vip users pay.
> Say we enter a ht 5 months before the close. When is that payment due for Vip users. I know my payment is done when i hit the button "send"
> Dk


As I said it varies, it might be the same week but no longer than 30 days


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Granddaddy said:


> Therefore the VIP program, IMO, has virtually nothing to do with entry habits & everything to do with the nature of a "limited" master stake. For example on the FT side (& HTs when there are no limits), pros are notorious for entering events on the evening of event closing because there is no threat of not getting in.


David, your opinion is certainly not impartial. You sound like a politician trying to justify a position. ;-)

Do the VIP entrys pay the $4.50 service fees for the scratches before the close like the rest of us? No they don't.

Now the VIP customer can enter dogs just as placeholders for down the road without penalty. As they know when they are going to scratch a dog and are ready to use that entry for a new dog. They can scratch the "placeholder" before close without penalty.

EE could easily allow the first 70 or 80 dogs (thus maintaining a waiting list of dogs) to enter an event limited to 60 prior to closing and then cut it to 60 a day or two after the closing, after the scratches have been added.

The HT Secretary has no control of Scratches prior to the close. All are done by EE and no ability to charge a scratch fee prior to close. All this is by EE's rules.

Allowing handlers to enter multiple dogs with a single click. . . . again all EE. Clubs have no control.

So you see it's a little disingenuous to say EE and the VIP program has nothing to do with it. 

Yea, Pros that are getting $75-100 handling fee per dog have a greater incentive to get dogs entered than the one dog amateur. So they have someone making sure they get entered. However, the playing field ain't entirely level. ;-)


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## downbirds (Jan 19, 2012)

Sorry did I read this right. If I scratch my dog before close I get dinked 4.50, but the people that are entering 10+ dogs scratch they are dinked nothing. If so I change my earlier thought of borderline unsportsmanlike IMHO, to outright unsportsmanlike IMHO.


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## Dave Kress (Dec 20, 2004)

EE was a great idea and has done a tremendous positive service to our sport. 
All whom I know and have contact with EE have the same thought process about attitude and customer service provided by EE and it is outstanding. 

Ht times have changed in the last year and i believe EE and the Akc, both private organizations, are trying to adjust. For the ht side of VIP maybe a debit when you enter would help the levelizing , prehaps a service charge for scatches would help( say $30) afterall there is a cost to the labor for adjustments and maybe some of this placeholder stuff would slow Heck I dont know how it all works but i do know the Ht entry world is a bit screwed up right now Our leadership, our ethics and our sportsmanship is all being tested right now. Silly me but i have confidence it will all work our. 
Dk


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Doug Main said:


> David, your opinion is certainly not impartial. You sound like a politician trying to justify a position. ;-)
> 
> Do the VIP entrys pay the $4.50 service fees for the scratches before the close like the rest of us? No they don't.
> 
> ...


Doug, unfortunately most of what you have said or imply is incorrect. Before you form an opinion you should know the facts. VIP users that run HTs make up a very small percentage of HT entries. Further the large percentage of VIP users are FT-related not HT. So the impact that you have imagined associated with the VIP program is negligible. And ironically the abusers of the entry process related to the "limited" stake that I am aware of pay with their credit cards - apparently just like you. 

Remember we are talking about a limited master stake. And you apparently, like some others would have the AKC, EE and anyone else that is downstream of the decision a club makes to hold a "limited" master to change the rules and policies that would affect the non-limited HT user or the FT user in order to satisfy the community that is frustrated by the circumstances associated with a limited master - and apparently at any costs to the entry service.

To comment on your statements directly, 

*"Do the VIP entrys pay the $4.50 service fees for the scratches before the close like the rest of us? No they don't."*

Actually EE charges no scratch fees to anyone whether pro, amateur, whether VIP user or otherwise. There is a transaction fee recovered from ALL credit card users to cover EE's costs associated with any credit card transactions whether a charge or refund. The cc processors don't care what the transaction is, it costs the merchant a fee for the transaction. The fee is made up of a percentage of the charge & flat rate fee that that totals approximately 3-5% of the total transaction depending upon the CC used. In addition, the current scratch process is handled manually by EE personnel which was the original point of this thread to commend EE personnel for working late to process scratches to help clubs fill their field at a limited event.

*Now the VIP customer can enter dogs just as placeholders for down the road without penalty. As they know when they are going to scratch a dog and are ready to use that entry for a new dog. They can scratch the "placeholder" before close without penalty.*

User have NO ability to use an entry as a placeholder. If a dog is scratched it is done manually by EE personnel completely apart from the entry process.

*EE could easily allow the first 70 or 80 dogs (thus maintaining a waiting list of dogs) to enter an event limited to 60 prior to closing and then cut it to 60 a day or two after the closing, after the scratches have been added.

*When the AKC approved the "limited" master stake, it was communicated that there could be NO waiting list. EE software to limit entries was programmed with that guideline in mind. Further nothing associated with changing s/w code is "easy". If you have read my previous communications on this subject you would know that EE advocates a waiting list and with AKC approval hopes to implement one in the future.

*The HT Secretary has no control of Scratches prior to the close. All are done by EE and no ability to charge a scratch fee prior to close. All this is by EE's rules.

*As a merchant (EE) allowing the use of credit cards to purchase products & services, the merchant has to allow for refunds of charges for those products & services purchased. This is not within the possible purview of clubs using the entry service but the required agreement between the merchant and the credit card processor. EE is in discussions with the AKC & has suggested that a scratch fee be implemented to discourage abuse of the benefits of an electronic entry service. And BTW, most club secretaries don't want to have control until they have to have it because they have enough work that the entry service can't accomplish.

*Allowing handlers to enter multiple dogs with a single click. . . . again all EE. Clubs have no control.
*
The single click is what every on-line vendor strives for, but it requires much more than a single click to enter multiple dogs. Those dogs have to be entered as the user's dogs and they have to be selected, payment method entered before the "single click". This is an essential feature of the service. Most users appreciate the fact that they can enter more than one dog. I know as a multi-dog entrant I appreciated this feature long before I was associated with EE. I saw that one post by an amateur in this thread wished that EE allowed a better service by allowing the entrant to entered more than one event in the same transaction. EE will continue to look for ways to make the service more user friendly to entrants and clubs alike rather than be more restrictive. And as a reminder AKC rules do not mandate that clubs have to use an electronic entry service. Clubs have the ability to handle entries manually as they did for years. Clubs can send post cards to enthusiasts inviting them to enter their event. Clubs can complete their own event applications to the AKC, receive entry checks, deposit them, handle bounced checks, handle scratches as they see fit, establish their running orders, print catalogs etc without an entry service providing the service.

So, not disingenuous at all. EE strives to provide the best service it can within the revenues generated, and at the lowest costs possible & still remain viable financially. And I am confident that if the VIP program was eliminated the same problems would exist with the limited master stake. Pros would still be more effective in getting the master slots they want & some folks would still complain that the process isn't fair. What you seem to forget is that clubs make the choice to hold a limited master, not the AKC & certainly not EE. And don't forget EE would have to find another revenue source to make-up the $20K avoided in cc fees if the VIP program were eliminated.

And to reiterate EE is working toward a standard date and time for opening all events holding limited masters, establishing an equitable waiting list, establishing a uniform and std entry closing date & time, and establishing a pre-close scratch policy that discourages abuse of the entry system among some other changes. What EE can't do is provide a greater supply of entry opportunities for limited master stakes, change the AKC rules governing those stakes or change the MN policies for qualifying - and it is these things that are the core issues related to the master limited stake. I encourage you and other to step back from the limited master stake issue & to consider the effect on the rest of the retriever sports community if rules and policies are changed without considering the effect on the non-limited stakes and events.


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## Doug Main (Mar 26, 2003)

Ok, Whatever you say David. 

Most FT pros told me they were using their own CC and not VIP as they get the rewards points and they get 30 days to pay the CC. 

When I purchase non-refundable airline tickets with my credit card. I can't get those back. 

Obviously, the Pro knows when he tells EE he is scratching that placeholder dog.  

I understand the VIP and placeholder issues are just a nit on the ass of an elephant. It's just the perception. When the entries are taken by pros entering 20-30 + dogs and the workers can't enter their single dog. There's a problem. It's easy to point a finger at any advantage that may exist for that Pro. 

I know one club that quit putting on HTs because of the large pro entries, (before AKC allowed limited entries). 

Why hasn't the Agility model gained more support? Is it because EE is against it?

Look, I know EE did not create this problem!!! BUT to say EE has nothing to do with it is Total BS!!!

Hey, It's a $hit sandwich, and everyone is going to have to take a bite.


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## Marty Lee (Mar 30, 2009)

if the VIP accounts save EE money on fees, heck just sign us all up for a VIP account and you can save more!


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

Marty Lee said:


> if the VIP accounts save EE money on fees, heck just sign us all up for a VIP account and you can save more!


Marty if you prefer not to pay by credit card you are welcome to send your entries to EE via mail, along with your check & you would save EE money on credit card fees at the same time. And if you would like to fill-out an application for a VIP account, meet the qualification from a credit view and volume position we'd be happy to consider it.


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

Ummmm, if I mail in a check/entry and then scratch, will I get my $4.50 back?


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## Labs (Jun 18, 2008)

We must be in that lull between the winding down of training/test season and hunting...


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## Granddaddy (Mar 5, 2005)

FOM said:


> Ummmm, if I mail in a check/entry and then scratch, will I get my $4.50 back?


By policy announced by the national clubs and Retriever News at their acquisition of the retriever entry services of EE several years ago, the entry service charge was raised to $4.50 and applied to all entries, paper,electronic or VIP. So it won't be refunded but you could avoid a service fee associated with the scratch - under current policies. But when the scratch policy is adjusted in the future to satisfy those who believe the entry process is being abused, probably all scratches will be subject to a scratch fee. That's why folks have to consider what they really want & think it through to foresee and understand the side effects of the decisions taken.

I failed to point out in post #52 that a mail-in entry is likely to be a bad decision given how fast limited master stakes are filling up & it's no guarantee of timely entry - the primary purpose of an electronic entry service. But I suspect you already know that & instead are just fanning the flames........


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## FOM (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm not worried about master, but I use to mail my entries to avoid the service fee, but when the policy changed I switched to CC entry, but you implied in the post above that only CC user pay the fee when they scratch, I wanted clarification.

I'd rather enter by mail if I'll save the $4.50 if I scratch...of course I'm referencing running FTs, but I did end up scratching my own clubs HT because Bullet started to show serious lameness.

And I asked a valid question whether you believe I'm fanning the flames or not.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

Granddaddy said:


> By policy announced by the national clubs and Retriever News at their acquisition of the retriever entry services of EE several years ago, the entry service charge was raised to $4.50 and applied to all entries, paper,electronic or VIP.
> ....


Let me preface this remark by stating that I would never wish to go back to the pre electronic entry days, HOWEVER;........


That self serving action stunk to high heavens; in and of itself.
It is galling when someone heavy handedly grants themselves a monopoly and then requires you to pay for their service regardless of whether or not you use their service.

Let me close by stating that you people ought to toss a little money Shane's way and see if he would come back and update your system. It was far more user friendly and ever improving technologically on his watch


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

mjh345 said:


> Let me preface this remark by stating that I would never wish to go back to the pre electronic entry days, HOWEVER;........
> 
> 
> That self serving action stunk to high heavens; in and of itself.
> ...


Or maybe we are close to the end of any non-compete clause and we get a better and once again responsive outfit to deal with again.


Swishy was always Receptive Regards


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## Karen Klotthor (Jul 21, 2011)

For those of you that do not like EE, HuntSecretary. com also does AKC. But of course you will have the same issues. Sames fees for CC entries. AKC rule is a full refund for a scratch prior to the close. This means only the Test entry fee. After the close it is up the the club. 
David, I hope you give Tara a raise. She is wonderful and very responsive to any emails.


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## Larry Housman (Jun 4, 2012)

mjh345 said:


> Let me preface this remark by stating that I would never wish to go back to the pre electronic entry days, HOWEVER;........
> 
> 
> That self serving action stunk to high heavens; in and of itself.
> ...


I'm a bit surprised that I'm defending EE, but in point of fact they did not "grant themselves a monopoly". Certainly the vast majority of AKC test giving clubs have given them defacto monopoly status, but they did nothing nefarious to get there and are forcing nobody to use them. There is another entry service that many HRC clubs, and apparently now NAHRA, use so there is no monopoly in my sense of the word.

I also don't agree with your assertion that EE will charge for a service (mailed in entries) that they don't provide. Near as I can tell, some EE employee has to process that entry and include it in the catalog, etc.

Now your props to the swishy one I can absolutely get behind!


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