# HRC or AKC? Which one and why?



## realwood1 (Apr 8, 2009)

I recently posted an intro to my new pup and mentioned that I intend to run her in hunt tests down the line. Then MooseGooser chimed in and asked if I was planning on HRC or AKC. Great question.

The trainer I plan to use seems to have a track record of HRC titles but I honestly don't know which direction I should go, HRC or AKC, or why.

All opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks

Dan


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## labman52738 (Jul 13, 2005)

I'd go with Nahra personally, but all of them are good for the dogs.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

IMHO, HRC is much more fun. For both you and your dog, nothing beats firing a live gun from the line for excitement.

But since AKC historically is the registry of record for the retriever breeds, if you are serious about getting titles and breeding, you need to run AKC.

Hopefully you can run both.


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## Matt McKenzie (Oct 9, 2004)

Check out both and decide for yourself. There are pros and cons to both. Some folks limit themselves (or are limited to) one venue and some of us run any venue involving retrievers. Try it all on and do what works for you.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

I cant remember if Ya said this was your first dog!

I TRY and run both!

I started with AKC Junior,, then went to HRC and accomplished a HRCH FINISHED title. I have now returned to AKC with that dog , and am trying to get a SENIOR title.

If I were to do that again,, *and run both venues*,, I would concentrate on AKC first,, then move on to HRC, especially if this is your first dog, and you just want to play the Games/test deal. AKC hunt tests IMHO, require a bit different mindset than HRC tests do. Their tests tend to be a bit more technical, blinds will be longer, and require much tighter control. 

Also, even though its OK to Handle on marks within both venues rules,, *AS A RULE OF THUMB*, your only gonna get 1 handle in the Marking part of the AKC tests. 
You will also need a very "steady" dog. You can run them without one,, but it makes a mess a yer shorts!!~~~~ I KNOW!!!!!

Now to HRC~~~~~

Ya want a HUNTING DOG!!!? YA Want test set ups that MIMIC Hunting as much as possible?, Ya wanna incorperate a real gun being shot next to the dog, and the dog learning to mark off the end of the gun barrel?. Ya wanna be able to talk to the dog all the time this is goin on,, just like Ya do when hunting,, and most important,, Ya wanna have a GREAT time doin it????,, then run HRC!!!

The tests are FUN!!! FUN !!! FUN!!! The people are great, the food is fantastic!
You can run Back to Back tests every weekend. (run a test Sturday, then enter a seperate test, same club, on Sunday!)
There are no call backs between series. If ya bomb in the morning Land series,, your welcome to come back in the afternoon and run the water test!! 

My OPINION?????!!!

If its your first dog,, I would pick the venue. that Makes Most sense to you,, and run ONLY that one venue and shoot for the moon!! Sometimes a Jack of all trades will be kinda good at a bunch a different things,, but never really masters one.

Prolly what it will all boil down to,, is that PRO guy yer gonna use, is gonna tell Ya what the capablities is of that dog ,, but most importantly,, what the *HANDLERS* capablities are,, and how much work HE OR SHE is willing to put into the deal,, that is going to be the deciding fator!!

Listen to what that Mr Jobman guy has to say very carefully,, and become a student of that game,, and learn it well!! ~~~~ Just DONT TELL HIM YA KNOW GOOSER!!!!

Gee!!! I wished I practiced what I preach!!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

P.S.

Jobman has a great track record in BOTH venues!!!

You could not have made a better choice in my opinion!

Gooser agin!


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## okvet (Jun 20, 2006)

i run both. First earned our JR title--then earned our HR title--then earned our SR title--then our HRCH title. We have only run one master test so far so need 4 more for our title.


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## Chance Raehn (Dec 18, 2008)

MooseGooser said:


> I cant remember if Ya said this was your first dog!
> 
> I TRY and run both!
> 
> ...


I think Gooser nailed this one. 

I ran HRC first then started running AKC this year. There was no reason that I ran HRC first other than my trainer used to run NAHRA and now runs HRC only. I now run both and if there is an AKC test and HRC test on the same weekend then I run the one that's closer. Anything that involves the dogs are fun to me.


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## Chance Raehn (Dec 18, 2008)

AmiableLabs said:


> IMHO, HRC is much more fun. For both you and your dog, nothing beats firing a live gun from the line for excitement.
> 
> *But since AKC historically is the registry of record for the retriever breeds, if you are serious about getting titles and breeding, you need to run AKC.*
> 
> Hopefully you can run both.


Kevin,

Maybe I read this wrong and I apologize if I did but it appears to me that you are saying a comprable HRC title is less desirable than an AKC title. Just curious. Thanks.

Chance


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## Dogtrainer4God (Oct 10, 2006)

PM sent realwood1......


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## okvet (Jun 20, 2006)

RunsCreek said:


> Kevin,
> 
> Maybe I read this wrong and I apologize if I did but it appears to me that you are saying a comprable HRC title is less desirable than an AKC title. Just curious. Thanks.
> 
> Chance


The only titles that show up on the AKC pedigree is AKC titles. AKC is the main registry so it does seem that AKC titles carry more weight with breeders. I also don't think that anyone who has ran both venues would argue that the Master title is tougher to come by than the Finished title and IMO the senior is much tougher than the seasoned. Both are great venues and again I would encourage anyone who loves the HT game to run both.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

I believe you only get one handle on marks in HRC as well.


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## realwood1 (Apr 8, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> P.S.
> 
> Jobman has a great track record in BOTH venues!!!
> 
> ...


I think I need to meet Gooser but it sounds like maybe it needs to be in a dark alley where no one will know I did


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## BHB (Apr 28, 2008)

I run AKC only for the reason that HRC ht's in the area are scarce. There is one each year about 3 hrs south of me but to go to others I would have to travel 2 days. It's hard enough to get to the AKCs. 

I'd love to run HRC but it's way too inconvenient. 

Saving my bucks,

BHB


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

I run HRC because I am a duck hunter that loves "hunting" with my dog in the off season.

AKC is a good deal but just not what I was looking for personally. I have no desire to breed dogs (my female is spay) so I leave that to the so-called experts. I figure there are plenty of dogs being bred so mine not being there won't hurt anything.

SOOOOOOO there it is I don't care how the elitist chain works I do what I do because I like it and have fun doing it.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

RunsCreek said:


> Maybe I read this wrong and I apologize if I did but it appears to me that you are saying a comprable HRC title is less desirable than an AKC title. Just curious. Thanks.


Chance, all titles are accomplishments worthy of accolades! I love me some HRCH! 

However, just as the UKC is the principal registry of working coonhounds, and the FDSB is the main registry for working pointers, the AKC is the chief registry for retrievers and always has been.

So if you are going to be serious about breeding you have to play in AKC's ballpark to maximize your success. More females will be interested in your stud; More top studs will be accepting of your girl, more accomplished buyers will be interested in puppies.

I didn't make it that way. It is just I have been in the game long enough to know it is. :?


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## caglatz (Aug 21, 2006)

labman52738 said:


> I'd go with Nahra personally, but all of them are good for the dogs.


Ditto for NAHRA !

.... but I would choose whatever one is convenient for you and you feel comfortable with - that way you have a better inclination to stick with it. In my opinion the people that you associate with and help you in your club make much more of a difference than whichever venue you chose to run. The dogs don't care which venue they run - they are just happy (and lucky) that you are spending time with them. Good luck to you both.


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## muddytwelvegauge (Apr 30, 2009)

I just started running Hunt Tests this year. And I have had the chance to run both hrc and akc. To be honest, I prefered the environment of the HRC hunt test. My experience with the AKC Hunt tests was kind of ackward, and it seemed there was a lot of nose in the air types there. I am going to stick with HRC. Just my opinion.

Josh


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

Run both of them. Get the Started Title in HRC first, then the JH in AKC, then Seasoned in HRC, then Senior in AKC, the HRCH in HRC, then MH in AKC. Then go run the Grand or the MN.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

Steve Hester said:


> Run both of them. Get the Started Title in HRC first, then the JH in AKC, then Seasoned in HRC, then Senior in AKC, the HRCH in HRC, then MH in AKC. Then go run the Grand or the MN.


Good advice ! Fun for your dog in all of them.


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## Brent McDowell (Jul 2, 2008)

Run all of 'em! Your pup won't have any idea whether his ducks were thrown at an AKC/UKC/NAHRA event nor that his titles are different...just that he had fun working with you that day.


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## Jeffrey Towler (Feb 17, 2008)

Both Hrc/Akc.

regards
Jeff
www.marshhawkretrievers.com


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

AmiableLabs said:


> Chance, all titles are accomplishments worthy of accolades! I love me some HRCH!
> 
> However, just as the UKC is the principal registry of working coonhounds, and the FDSB is the main registry for working pointers, the AKC is the chief registry for retrievers and always has been.
> 
> ...


WOW You are way off base here
I have two stud dogs that have a GRHRCH and an HRCH Title plus 500+ points on both of them. Both get a lot of females for breeding. Plus I know a few HRCH Females that have pups from non-AKC Titled dogs just a plain ole HRCH Title. Pups sold for $800 - $1000 with no problems.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

okvet said:


> The only titles that show up on the AKC pedigree is AKC titles. AKC is the main registry so it does seem that AKC titles carry more weight with breeders. I also don't think that anyone who has ran both venues would argue that the Master title is tougher to come by than the Finished title and IMO the senior is much tougher than the seasoned. Both are great venues and again I would encourage anyone who loves the HT game to run both.


Dude where are you coming up with a Master Title is harder to come by then a Finished Title? Are you meaning that you can only get one pass on a weekend in Master and two in Finished. 
The master test I have run lately had many dogs pass that would not have made it through a Finished test. Line manners were awful along with handling on blinds. I guess the judges play a big role in this though.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Prolly cause in the Master test they are killing birds as opposed to chunking birds that have been hooked up to someones SUV's tail pipe.

Lots easier to maintain line manners when the chickens are already dead.

For hunters and by hunters?

Flyers tell the story regards

Bubba


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## limiman12 (Oct 13, 2007)

First off, I run NAHRA almost exclusively, occasionally will run APLA. I have a great time and am around great people. Unfortunalty depending on where you live, NAHRA tests can be hard to find, but that is starting to change some, we have had several new tests this year from clubs new or coming back to NAHRA.

Whoever said what ever your training group runs is what you will probably run is right on the money. I got hooked up with some great folks and that is how I started with NAHRA. If the same folks ran AKC or HRC, I would have probably started there. I started training to hunt, testin gto see where my training was. Got hooked on testing and now train beyond what I would for a "normal" hunting dog. BUt it is pretty cool to get to run a three-hundred yard blind in November and turn to see the look on the hunting partners face. Bottom line, have fun with your dog and remember that now matter what venue, as a friend says, "it is just dogs picking up ducks"

As to what venue is toughest, that is going to depend on the day, the conditions, and the judges. I have run NAHRA tests that were pretty damn tough, and regardless of what dog and what venue, anybody that would have collected a ribbon would have been proud. I have also run a few that were at the other end. There has to be easy if there is going to be hard if average is goin gto stay average......

The only other thing I would say is run what feel comfortable. I did not realize that HRC did not have call backs....sometimes that is good, others not, if your dog flips you the paw in series one, running more may turn into a mess that will set you back. NAHRA judges are (for the most part there are always exceptions) very good about helping handlers learn the game at the lower levels, and when time permits will talk to you about what you may have done wrong. That helps A LOT, if you are new to the games...


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Bill Davis said:


> WOW You are way off base here
> I have two stud dogs that have a GRHRCH and an HRCH Title plus 500+ points on both of them. Both get a lot of females for breeding. Plus I know a few HRCH Females that have pups from non-AKC Titled dogs just a plain ole HRCH Title. Pups sold for $800 - $1000 with no problems.


Bill, I agree wholeheartedly. What did Steve Earick sell is the pups out of his Grand bitch for? $1,200.00 and from what I recall, they sold quick too.

Run both and have a good time with it. Based on experience, expect to find HRC to be a more family friendly atmosphere. I never experienced that with AKC.

I run HRC exclusively right now due to commitments within HRC, and we flat just have a great time with all of our friends in Regions 1, 7 and 8. I might go back to AKC if I have time, but I would be going with one purpose; get the titles and move on.

As for Master being tougher than Finished, I've seen tough tests in both venues so that's a wash. Run a Rusty Wismer, test sometime and tell me what an easy time you had. And if anybody thinks that the third series has an impact, go run a back to back at an HRC test weekend, and let me know how the dog did after the fourth series. The DOGS don't know the difference between pass and fail. All they know is that there are ducks to be picked up.


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

Bill Davis said:


> WOW You are way off base here
> I have two stud dogs. . . .


No, I am not "off base," you are being anecdotal. I am speaking in generalities. There are always going to be exceptions to generalities, but they are precisely just that -- exceptions.

There is no question the AKC is the registry of record for retrievers. There is no question that the AKC hunting test program is much larger than the HRC hunt test program. There is no question that there are more participants in AKC FTs and HTs that discriminate against HRC bred animals than visa versa.

And I say this as someone whose heart is with HRC.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Bubba said:


> Prolly cause in the Master test they are killing birds as opposed to chunking birds that have been hooked up to someones SUV's tail pipe.
> 
> Lots easier to maintain line manners when the chickens are already dead.
> 
> ...


Hmmmmm..... I didn't realize that AKC used only live flyers.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Bubba said:


> Prolly cause in the Master test they are killing birds as opposed to chunking birds that have been hooked up to someones SUV's tail pipe.
> 
> Lots easier to maintain line manners when the chickens are already dead.
> 
> ...


You guys still kill birds the old fashioned way with tailpipe exhaust? I don't know any HRC club that still does that. If you want a good CO2 kill box let me know and I'll give you the number of the manufacturer. 

As I recall, each test has to have 1 flier at 1 series not 12-15 fliers total. If one's training regimen is complete then the dog should be used to fliers and not wind up having a surprise at a hunt test.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

The last three Master test I have ran had no Fliers at all


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## Thomas D (Jan 27, 2003)

Wasn't that due to the grounds?


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Yes it was due to the grounds. Even though no fliers were shot that weekend, line manners on a lot of dogs was very bad. Excessive creeping and I mean excessive, all this with no fliers


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## spaightlabs (Jul 15, 2005)

Dan - Chris had a seminar on communication with your dog yesterday up in Bayard. Had the good fortune to be able to go and meet his young dog trainers, spend time on the grounds etc.

Very very nice set up and your pup will be in great hands with Dane and this other young dog trainer (forgot his name - stinks getting old) and Chris.

I think Chris runs a lot more HRC than AKC so that might help you make your decision, but all of the dogs he ran yesterday were more than capable of performing at high levels in AKC.

Where in Centennial are ya?


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

What I've noticed is that in HRC the focus is a lot more on the handler than the dog. Its roughly 50/50 dog/handler in HRC. AKC the tests are about 80/20 dog/handler. Since the focus is less on the dog and more on the team in HRC, the tests themeselves are "easier" for the dog to complete, from an AKC perspective. That doesn't mean the pass is any easier to come by, it just means the handler causes as many of the failures as the dog.

/Paul


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> What I've noticed is that in HRC the focus is a lot more on the handler than the dog. Its roughly 50/50 dog/handler in HRC. AKC the tests are about 80/20 dog/handler. Since the focus is less on the dog and more on the team in HRC, the tests themeselves are "easier" for the dog to complete, from an AKC perspective. That doesn't mean the pass is any easier to come by, it just means the handler causes as many of the failures as the dog.
> 
> /Paul


Dammit Boy- I had this one all teed up and ready to ship for ya.

Something along the lines of "Why gas 'em? Just swat 'em with yer purse"? Noooooooooooooo you come along with this weak slider.

Yeah well maybe that smartass Texian Duck4me or Leddy will keep the ball in the air.

80/20 indeed regards

Bubba


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Dammit Boy- I had this one all teed up and ready to ship for ya.
> 
> Something along the lines of "Why gas 'em? Just swat 'em with yer purse"? Noooooooooooooo you come along with this weak slider.
> 
> ...


you could at least spell my name right.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Bubba said:


> Dammit Boy- I had this one all teed up and ready to ship for ya.
> 
> Something along the lines of "Why gas 'em? Just swat 'em with yer purse"? Noooooooooooooo you come along with this weak slider.
> 
> ...


Well, I finally figured out why they don't use flyers in HRC. They're all so worried about bucket, the gun stand, the whistle, the duck call, what camo pattern am I wearing and does it match my underwear, saying "action open, safety on" all at the same time, they would never see where the flyer landed. Having all dead throws the bird lands in the same place, and that allows them handle their dog so that it quarters in and finds the bird. So at least I finally got a decent answer as to why no flyers....

/Paul


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

This goggle video shows some young men practicing for HRC hunts. Imagine doing this with your 870 before you place it in the orange rack?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5800545939315072360&ei=6Yo1SsfQMqHWrALO9_TrCA&q=rifle+drill&hl=en


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> Well, I finally figured out why they don't use flyers in HRC. They're all so worried about bucket, the gun stand, the whistle, the duck call, what camo pattern am I wearing and does it match my underwear, saying "action open, safety on" all at the same time, they would never see where the flyer landed. Having all dead throws the bird lands in the same place, and that allows them handle their dog so that it quarters in and finds the bird. So at least I finally got a decent answer as to why no flyers....
> 
> /Paul


U said underwear...


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Heck last week we used a PINK fake gun in an AKC Master test.
O by the way HRC does use fliers at times


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Bill Davis said:


> Heck last week we used a PINK fake gun in an AKC Master test.
> O by the way HRC does use fliers at times


 
I judged Finished at Treasure Coast in December and we shot flyers Saturday and Sunday.

It was pretty refreshing to get to judge an HRC with shot flyers in the mix!

Chris


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## Todd Caswell (Jun 24, 2008)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I judged Finished at Treasure Coast in December and we shot flyers Saturday and Sunday.
> 
> It was pretty refreshing to get to judge an HRC with shot flyers in the mix!
> 
> Chris




Chris,


Could you explain how the finished test plays out with a live flyer. I run trials but train with a HRC club and would like to run this by them.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Todd Caswell said:


> Chris,
> 
> 
> Could you explain how the finished test plays out with a live flyer. I run trials but train with a HRC club and would like to run this by them.


I'm not quite sure how to answer. We just had one of our marks a flyer. The handler still fired poppers from the line at all of the marks, including the flyer. 

Does that address it, or what specifically would you like me to clarify? My understanding is that Treasure Coast is an AKC/UKC dual club and shot flyers for all of their hunt tests are a given.

Chris


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## Pheasanttomeetyou (Jan 31, 2004)

realwood1 said:


> I recently posted an intro to my new pup and mentioned that I intend to run her in hunt tests down the line. Then MooseGooser chimed in and asked if I was planning on HRC or AKC. Great question.
> 
> The trainer I plan to use seems to have a track record of HRC titles but I honestly don't know which direction I should go, HRC or AKC, or why.
> 
> ...


Go with NAHRA, then AKC.

1. NAHRA invented the rule book, and it is the best out there.

2. NAHRA uses live birds.

3. NAHRA doesn't allow the handler to shoot over the dog -- you'll protect his hearing (and your's as well).

4. NAHRA includes upland series in all of its [upper level] tests, so you won't feel ripped off when you have to pay for a separate test.

5. Great weekend of testing for you and your dog!

6. Great way to prepare for AKC tests.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Pheasanttomeetyou said:


> Go with NAHRA, then AKC.
> 
> 1. NAHRA invented the rule book, and it is the best out there.
> 
> ...


Does NAHRA use only live flyers?

HRC only shoots poppers and not over the dog.


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

M&K's Retrievers said:


> Does NAHRA use only live flyers?
> .


none of the big 3 use ONLY live birds
live birds are provided to the judges
to do with what they wish


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## Keith Stroyan (Sep 22, 2005)

I've run them all: O/T/H 12 NAHRA MHRs, 5 UH-HRCHs, 1 AKC MH and have some FT greenies. I like them all in about that order, but it is the inverse order of the strength of the underlying organizations (AKC, UKC-HRC, NAHRA, if that matters to you or your club.) Since I hunt upland, field and water waterfowl, NAHRA's program suits my training best.

I gave up on the HRC upland tests when they had severe problems arounf here with "natural" flushes. I never saw a trail in HRC upland or flyer in HRC waterfowl tests, but, except for the flushing trouble, the tests ar a lot of fun.

AKC/HT marks and blinds tend to be the most technical, HRC the least, NAHRA between, but the quality of the judging (and set-up) is the most important part of any of them (and FTs).

Join your local club whatever they run.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

AmiableLabs said:


> There is no question that the AKC hunting test program is much larger than the HRC hunt test program.
> And I say this as someone whose heart is with HRC.


I would love to see some real numbers on that.


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## David McCracken (May 24, 2009)

I like HRC (but, since we're classified as Spaniels, HRC or NAHRA is all I can run). HRC is much more realistic than AKC; seriously, how many times in hunting do you send your dog for a bird someone 100 yards away shot? In HRC, most shots are from the line. I also like the fact that I can talk to my dog after I signal that I'm ready.
But, most of all, the HRC family is the greatest group of people I've ever met.
Professor


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## Bill Watson (Jul 13, 2005)

I would like to address the breeding part. Gator Point Kennel has produced a little over one thousand pups over the last 25 years. For the last 20 years we have only run HRC test (when a pro is handling our dogs they have also run AKC if they so desired). Over the years we have had no trouble moving our pups (due to the recent downturn we still have two females available $1,500 ea., two fellows lost their jobs, deposit returned. Pups are duel registered and I may add that UKC is much nicer to deal with, more interested in the dogs rather than just MONEY! The dogs produced have more to do with it than who registered them, JMHO.

Mark Huffman bought a female pup from us years ago, borrowed his neighbors 3 year old dog to practice training on while waiting on his pup to be born. He was a member of a HRC club, got a HRCH on his dog, got one Grand pass on his dog, missed a couple of times (handler error?) and got bit by the field trial bug. FC/AFC Gator Pt's. Sweet Potato Pie is the ONLY CHOCOLATE FEMALE to carry both field trial titles and I have to say that is due to Mark's expertise and determination (he and Ann have done well with their kids too). A lot of a breeders success is determined by WHO gets the dog. We have been very fortunite over the years and have been very lucky. 

Over the years I have run and judged AKC, NAHRA, UKC and one AKC Qual, and have for the last 12 or15 years have done HRC. I'm old and laid back and just enjoy and love the dogs, primarily Chocolate, see, they can count to three! Bill Watson
________
Park Royal Pattaya


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

There are many good reasons to choose AKC or HRC. Many stated previously. I now will run only AKC until I am at a level where my dog would be ready to run Master.
These are the reasons. Titles show on AKC pedigress, the registry used most frequently. Time for everything is limited. The other reason is training. I have run a fun HRC test and a real HRC test and trained with an HRC group for a time. This covers two different parts of the country. Compared to most of the AKC people I have trained with, HRC training methods were too often a step back in time. Compared to AKC tests, in the name of hunting, HRC will have setups that you will, in all probability, never see in any AKC test. My opinion of this is, you need a truly finished hunting companion either as a master or finished dog to complete these type of tests. For instance, I want to see tests that encourage marking not handling. You will also get things in a seasoned test that definately belong in Finsihed or Master only. This can be a set back in the natural progression of a training program. That is why I say play the AKC game. Except go run a Started or two. It is a great place to get your dog acclimated with the whole lots of dogs, guns, and birds thing. Then concentrate on AKC JH and SH. Once you have passed Senior, go to Finished and/or Master.


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## dorkweed (Apr 14, 2009)

This is JMHO, but the AKC folks that train where I train tend to be a little snobby/stand offish. I've never run across this with the other organizations that hold retriever tests/trials. Like I said, JMHO!!!!! Maybe it's because I wear camo most of the time!!!! Camo goes with everything!!!


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

Just read this thread and look how fast AKC HTers slam other venues. This is why I love HRC. The people and the time with my dog.


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

I have been running NAHRA this spring/summer.
I have run AKC & HRC over the years as well.
I really enjoy the NAHRA venue and the people I have met.
But it's a choice and you have to try them and make it for yourself.
What I like about 1 venue may not appeal to the next guy.
Try them and see what works best for you.
They are all very good, well run & organized.

What is convenient, fits your life style and the goals for you and your dog.

No one can say one is better than the other.

That's like saying blondes are better than redheads, t'ain't so, just a matter of taste!!

just sayin'

stan b


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## david gibson (Nov 5, 2008)

road kill said:


> I have been running NAHRA this spring/summer.
> I have run AKC & HRC over the years as well.
> I really enjoy the NAHRA venue and the people I have met.
> But it's a choice and you have to try them and make it for yourself.
> ...


deleted my reply - ohhhh man thats just tooooo tempting... ;-)


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Chris Atkinson said:


> I judged Finished at Treasure Coast in December and we shot flyers Saturday and Sunday.
> 
> It was pretty refreshing to get to judge an HRC with shot flyers in the mix!
> 
> Chris


Blasphemer. You're corrupting the movement with AKC idealogy....

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Billy Shears said:


> deleted my reply - ohhhh man thats just tooooo tempting... ;-)


He clearly missed the "shaving your golden" thread.....

/Paul


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

brandywinelabs said:


> There are many good reasons to choose AKC or HRC. Many stated previously. I now will run only AKC until I am at a level where my dog would be ready to run Master.
> These are the reasons. Titles show on AKC pedigress, the registry used most frequently. Time for everything is limited. The other reason is training. I have run a fun HRC test and a real HRC test and trained with an HRC group for a time. This covers two different parts of the country. Compared to most of the AKC people I have trained with, HRC training methods were too often a step back in time. Compared to AKC tests, in the name of hunting, HRC will have setups that you will, in all probability, never see in any AKC test. My opinion of this is, you need a truly finished hunting companion either as a master or finished dog to complete these type of tests. For instance, I want to see tests that encourage marking not handling. You will also get things in a seasoned test that definately belong in Finsihed or Master only. This can be a set back in the natural progression of a training program. That is why I say play the AKC game. Except go run a Started or two. It is a great place to get your dog acclimated with the whole lots of dogs, guns, and birds thing. Then concentrate on AKC JH and SH. Once you have passed Senior, go to Finished and/or Master.


I'm so confused


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

brandywinelabs said:


> There are many good reasons to choose AKC or HRC. Many stated previously. I now will run only AKC until I am at a level where my dog would be ready to run Master.
> These are the reasons. Titles show on AKC pedigress, the registry used most frequently. Time for everything is limited. The other reason is training. I have run a fun HRC test and a real HRC test and trained with an HRC group for a time. This covers two different parts of the country. Compared to most of the AKC people I have trained with, HRC training methods were too often a step back in time. Compared to AKC tests, in the name of hunting, HRC will have setups that you will, in all probability, never see in any AKC test. My opinion of this is, you need a truly finished hunting companion either as a master or finished dog to complete these type of tests. For instance, I want to see tests that encourage marking not handling. You will also get things in a seasoned test that definately belong in Finsihed or Master only. This can be a set back in the natural progression of a training program. That is why I say play the AKC game. Except go run a Started or two. It is a great place to get your dog acclimated with the whole lots of dogs, guns, and birds thing. Then concentrate on AKC JH and SH. Once you have passed Senior, go to Finished and/or Master.


I am with you M&K, This post has my head spinning

1-Are you saying that HRC Finished test encourage handling on Marks? 
2-What does HRC have in a Finished test that in all probability you would not see in a Master test?
3-What have you seen in a seasoned test that should have been in a Finished or Master test?


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

brandywinelabs said:


> ... Compared to most of the AKC people I have trained with, HRC training methods were too often a step back in time. Compared to AKC tests, in the name of hunting, HRC will have setups that you will, in all probability, never see in any AKC test. My opinion of this is, you need a truly finished hunting companion either as a master or finished dog to complete these type of tests. For instance, I want to see tests that encourage marking not handling. You will also get things in a seasoned test that definately belong in Finsihed or Master only. This can be a set back in the natural progression of a training program. That is why I say play the AKC game. Except go run a Started or two. It is a great place to get your dog acclimated with the whole lots of dogs, guns, and birds thing. Then concentrate on AKC JH and SH. Once you have passed Senior, go to Finished and/or Master.


This is so far off the mark it's actually comical.


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## Steve Hester (Apr 14, 2005)

brandywinelabs said:


> There are many good reasons to choose AKC or HRC. Many stated previously. I now will run only AKC until I am at a level where my dog would be ready to run Master.
> These are the reasons. Titles show on AKC pedigress, the registry used most frequently. Time for everything is limited. The other reason is training. I have run a fun HRC test and a real HRC test and trained with an HRC group for a time. This covers two different parts of the country. Compared to most of the AKC people I have trained with, HRC training methods were too often a step back in time. Compared to AKC tests, in the name of hunting, HRC will have setups that you will, in all probability, never see in any AKC test. My opinion of this is, you need a truly finished hunting companion either as a master or finished dog to complete these type of tests. For instance, I want to see tests that encourage marking not handling. You will also get things in a seasoned test that definately belong in Finsihed or Master only. This can be a set back in the natural progression of a training program. That is why I say play the AKC game. Except go run a Started or two. It is a great place to get your dog acclimated with the whole lots of dogs, guns, and birds thing. Then concentrate on AKC JH and SH. Once you have passed Senior, go to Finished and/or Master.


I belong to an HRC club. We train together for HRC tests, AKC tests, and we have dogs that run both venues. We have dogs at all levels in both venues, including Grand Hunting Retriever Champions and Master Hunters. HRC and AKC are different, but both can easily be trained for at the same time. Both venues are still just dogs picking up stuff, nothing more, nothing less.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Tried not to write a long letter. Will do so later today with explanation. You won't think it "comical" later!
I tried to be somewhat vague on purpose!


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## David McLendon (Jan 5, 2005)

brandywinelabs said:


> Tried not to write a long letter. Will do so later today with explanation. You won't think it "comical" later!
> I tried to be somewhat vague on purpose!


Based on your short version, I'm sure it will be enlightening.


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

Bill Davis said:


> Heck last week we used a PINK fake gun in an AKC Master test.
> O by the way HRC does use fliers at times


I thought flyers were required in a MH test. At least EVERY one that I have run has had one. 
As someone that has run both MH & Finished tests, I would have to say that MH passes are significantly harder to come by than Finished passes. First of all, you have much greater distances on marks in MH tests, twice the number of marks, you can only handle once on a mark, and twice the number of blinds. Also, the pass rate in Finished tests seems to at least 50% at the tests that I have been to. On the other hand, I have only seen 50% of the entered dogs pass one time in a MH test. As far as steadiness, the shots in the field (with blanks) seem to be louder (to me) than the poppers used in the HRC. 

I do like both HRC & AKC, and will continue to run both.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

dixiedog said:


> I thought flyers were required in a MH test. At least EVERY one that I have run has had one.
> As someone that has run both MH & Finished tests, I would have to say that MH passes are significantly harder to come by than Finished passes. First of all, you have much greater distances on marks in MH tests, twice the number of marks, you can only handle once on a mark, and twice the number of blinds. Also, the pass rate in Finished tests seems to at least 50% at the tests that I have been to. On the other hand, I have only seen 50% of the entered dogs pass one time in a MH test. As far as steadiness, the shots in the field (with blanks) seem to be louder (to me) than the poppers used in the HRC.
> 
> I do like both HRC & AKC, and will continue to run both.


Please show us the stats to support your theory concerning Master Titles are significantly harder to get then a Finished title. Since I just got back into running AKC, so far for my dogs I have passed 3/3 with one dog and 2/3 with the other in Master test. And to be honest about it the test were a heck of a lot easier. 
Come on where do you get that you can only handle on one mark in AKC? I have ran test where dogs have handled on more then one mark and have passed, just as I have seen dogs handle on two marke in Finished and pass. 
So you are saying in Master you have 12 marks since you can have 6 in Finished, and 4 blinds in Masters as there are 2 in Finished. I got shorted on my blinds the last Master test I ran...Distances in Master are shorter then Finished per the rule book. Only in Master they are only a suggested maximum distance (100yds) where as Finished they can be no further (150 Yds). 
I have been to Master test with a 94% pass rate. As far as pass % all in all they appear to be about equal. You'll have judges in both pass a lot of dogs and judges that really judge to the standards which in turn may have a lower pass rate. 
What difference does the loudness of a popper in the field and a primer load at the line have to do with Steadyness?


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

brandywinelabs said:


> Tried not to write a long letter. Will do so later today with explanation. You won't think it "comical" later!
> I tried to be somewhat vague on purpose!


I can hardly wait for this....................


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

Bill Davis said:


> Please show us the stats to support your theory concerning Master Titles are significantly harder to get then a Finished title.
> I have been to Master test with a 94% pass rate. As far as pass % all in all they appear to be about equal.


Please remember that I said I run & enjoy both Finished & MH tests, but the pass rates are not the same...

HRC Finished pass rate for the 8 most recent tests listed on Entryexpress.net
10/27 Muddy Waters RC
16/26 Muddy Waters RC
5/11 Essex HRC
5/8 Long Island
8/9 Long Island
16/21 Coastal Empire
15/21 Coastal Empire
25/30 SW Missouri

out of the 1st 4 HRC HT's listed on EE: 75 out of 123 dogs passed Finished tests

Total Pass Rate=65.3%


AKC MH pass rate for the 8 most recent tests listed on EE:

5/16 Fairbanks RC
13/27 Great Western Flat-Coated Retriever
15/33 Shoreline RC
32/55 Mid-Iowa RC
17/42 Central Minn RC
17/43 Central Minn RC
8/19 Treasure State RC
5/15 Fairbanks RC

out of the 1st 8 AKC HT's listed on EE: 112 out of 250 dogs passed MH tests

Total Pass Rate=44.8%


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## TestDawg (Nov 27, 2007)

dixiedog said:


> Please remember that I said I run & enjoy both Finished & MH tests, but the pass rates are not the same...
> 
> HRC Finished pass rate for the 8 most recent tests listed on Entryexpress.net
> 10/27 Muddy Waters RC
> ...



Only problem I see with these HRC numbers is the lack of "walkup" entries. Essex had over 20 dogs in Finished. The HR magazine would have the actual entry numbers and the number of passes.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

And Chris wanted to know if there was an ELITIST problem on this board.


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

Perhaps I should have said that I tried to be vague. Well for good reason. 
I toyed with not posting this because of the can of worms it would open.
But here goes. These issues are real and not arguable to me.

I write this based on my HRC experiences in multiple parts of the country. It does not mean that you will have the same experiences. And it does not mean that you will not have similar experiences with an AKC group or club. Perhaps it is just my bad luck to have run into these situations. You can get bad tests in AKC, and be associated with bad AKC training groups. Comparatively speaking, I have found a profound difference and will basically stick to AKC. 

Here are some of the reasons I will avoid HRC Seasoned tests. One Seasoned test I ran had both marks in a straight line. If it wasn’t a straight line, it was extremely close. We’d be splitting hairs here. Then the blind was run on the same line. This was a Seasoned test. Another instance was when the HRC rep, at a Seasoned test I was at, and he was right in doing so, had a discussion with the judges about the test. My 10.5 yr old dog with MH passes and the rep’s dog were the only two to pass the test. Granted you can get bad tests in AKC. But, I haven’t found the extreme there. Just to qualify, my 10.5 yr old girl did not finish her MH because I had to leave the game for quite a while. As an aside, the last time I saw that many birds on one line was in an AKC MH test judged by two HRC judges. It was quite some time ago but as I remember, it was a fun test. And the concept belonged in Master or Finished. It had 7 birds and we picked up three or 4 birds placed on the same line. Of those, two were the same mark thrown at different times. 

Training. And this is not comical! And I am being nice with the wording here. I have seen multiple strictly HRC pros, regarded highly by the HRC people in the area, with a transmitter in hand abusing dogs. Abusing them by means other than the collar, for what should be a simple collar correction for one of the big no-nos. Too often I have also seen abusive corrections from HRC amateurs. I have seen training where they teach the dogs to go to old falls on a marks (guess that goes with the seasoned test above). And that was in a different part of the country from where the test I described was. That doesn’t mean that you won’t see any of this in an AKC group or test. I reiterate, comparatively speaking, I have found a profound difference and will basically stick to AKC. 

The seasoned test described above, and some others I have seen, pretty much speaks to the issue of encouraging handling on marks 

With these experiences, what would your opinion be?

Just remember I did not say to avoid the HRC. Run Started. Run AKC JH and SH. Run Finished, MH and the Qual. In your training group look for fairness, look for consistency, look for adherence to accepted modern training methods that teach. Those put forth by the Lardy, Graham, Voight, and others.


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## Ken Newcomb (Apr 18, 2003)

So basially you witnessed an illegal Seasoned Test so all HRC Seasoned are stupid and should never be run and you saw a pro that happens to run HRC abuse his dogs so everyone that runs HRC tests is a pathetic human being.

I would venture to guess that you will find some pretty dumb set-ups in AKC as well along with some people that have abused their dogs to the point of getting suspended.

Sounds like a lot of crud to heap on being an HRC problem.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Ken Newcomb said:


> So basially you witnessed an illegal Seasoned Test so all HRC Seasoned are stupid and should never be run and you saw a pro that happens to run HRC abuse his dogs so everyone that runs HRC tests is a pathetic human being.
> 
> I would venture to guess that you will find some pretty dumb set-ups in AKC as well along with some people that have abused their dogs to the point of getting suspended.
> 
> Sounds like a lot of crud to heap on being an HRC problem.


Reiteration regards and I don't run either.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

You can't count on entryexpress for the number of dogs in a HRC HT. HRC has no cut off date and most handlers enter after the deadline for entryexpress. Try again....

The test I have judged in HRC the pass rate is near 40%


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

Per HRC Magazine April/May 2009 Finished pass rate was 56%.

I can also personally speak for Coastal Empire pass rate. I was a finished judge both days, and that was one of the strongest fields of dogs I have seen. Most were being handled by pros that were running 8 dogs going to the Grand. With that said, I have also noticed a lower number of young finished dog entries in our test. Probably due to the economy. Our HRC finished test pass rate over the past several years runs around 40% or less. A lot of it has to do with the grounds provided. Probably more of it has to do with selecting quality judges. Mark placement (and to a lessor extent blind placement) in HRC or AKC is criticle to setting up quality tests. We don't get cupcake judges at our tests. If our members get wet for a title, they earn it.

On another note. In general, AKC tests are more technical. Usually tighter marks and not as much water cover. Some dogs handle AKC easier than HRC due to no guns at the line. Some dogs do better at HRC. Few dogs, if any, do better in trials.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

brandywinelabs said:


> Perhaps I should have said that I tried to be vague. Well for good reason.
> I toyed with not posting this because of the can of worms it would open.
> But here goes. These issues are real and not arguable to me.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying here is that HRC folks abuse their dogs and AKC folks don't. Give me a break....

As far as your discription of the Seasoned test. I kind of have a hard believing a seasoned test was setup that way and a Handler or the FR did not say anything about it. Being that the test was an illegal test....You are taught in the Judges seminar that the marks must seperated by 90 degrees and the Blind must be run from a different line then the Marks


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

Bill Davis said:


> You can't count on entryexpress for the number of dogs in a HRC HT. HRC has no cut off date and most handlers enter after the deadline for entryexpress. Try again....


I think HRC clubs that use EE have a cut-off. At least, Backwoods HRC used EE for a test last year and that is what their sec'y told me. Either way, even if there were walk-ups, these statistics still hold true for the dogs that were registered before the cut-off.

Either way, I was just using this as an example since you asked for facts earlier.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

brandywinelabs said:


> As an aside, the last time I saw that many birds on one line was in an AKC MH test judged by two HRC judges.


Obviously these were AKC judges also, running under AKC rules, so AKC should take credit.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

dixiedog said:


> I think HRC clubs that use EE have a cut-off. At least, Backwoods HRC used EE for a test last year and that is what their sec'y told me. Either way, even if there were walk-ups, these statistics still hold true for the dogs that were registered before the cut-off.
> 
> Either way, I was just using this as an example since you asked for facts earlier.


Ones that I have run that use EE still accept walkups.


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Well like nobody has ever seen abusive behavior coming from AKC trainers. Oh brother, at least you're inventive. 

One test does not a rationale make. The hunt test committee should have intervened in this situation and did not. That in itself is a shame.


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## bjoiner (Feb 25, 2008)

The one bad test set up may be a reason not to run that club's test again, but not abiding by the rules should not be held against HRC.


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## GulfCoast (Sep 24, 2007)

This thread has gotten absurd.


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

Why can't everyone just run the test they like either AKC or HRC and have fun? Why must there always be an argument on what title is better? A Finished Title or a Master Title is a great accomplishment for anyone. A Grand Title or a MNH Title is the icing on the cake.

On any given weekend you may have a high % pass rate or you may have a low % pass rate in either game. The quality of the dogs now days plays a big role along with the training involved and dedication by the handlers. 
So the next time you all what to slam either AKC or HRC think about what you have gone through to get your dog where they are today and then think of the folks that have put the same effort into their dog. It's not about a MH Title is harder to get then a HRCH Title, it's about what you enjoy doing and the people you meet doing it. 
I have a Grand Title on one dog and need one more pass on my other dog. I need a few more Master passes to put a MH Tilte on both these dogs. And you know I AM PROUD OF MY ACCOMPLISHMENTS.


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

GulfCoast said:


> This thread has gotten absurd.


Agreed... and just to add to it...

I can appreciate what dixiedawg is trying to show with some data, but 8, let alone 4 is an awfully small sample size to draw your conclusions from. If I'm remembering how to use my fancy calculator to calculate a standard error around the mean, I'd wager there really is no significant difference in your averages. HRC is 65.3 +/- 18.1 and AKC is 42.3 +/- 8.5... so there is no statistical difference between the two numbers.

Flame suit on regards.....


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## Mike Tome (Jul 22, 2004)

Bill Davis said:


> Why can't everyone just run the test they like either AKC or HRC and have fun? Why must there always be an argument on what title is better? A Finished Title or a Master Title is a great accomplishment for anyone. A Grand Title or a MNH Title is the icing on the cake.
> 
> On any given weekend you may have a high % pass rate or you may have a low % pass rate in either game. The quality of the dogs now days plays a big role along with the training involved and dedication by the handlers.
> So the next time you all what to slam either AKC or HRC think about what you have gone through to get your dog where they are today and then think of the folks that have put the same effort into their dog. It's not about a MH Title is harder to get then a HRCH Title, it's about what you enjoy doing and the people you meet doing it.
> I have a Grand Title on one dog and need one more pass on my other dog. I need a few more Master passes to put a MH Tilte on both these dogs. And you know I AM PROUD OF MY ACCOMPLISHMENTS.


I couldn't agree more...


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

"I kinda of have a hard believing a seasoned test was setup that way and a Handler or the FR did not say anything about it. You are taught in the Judges seminar that the marks must seperated by 90 degrees and the Blind must be run from a different line then the Marks."

1. Believe it! 
2. You are probably right that tests should be that way. There are those in all venues that, when the judges hat goes on...... Judges do have the final say in many matters....
3. One of the abusers writes a column for the HRC. Did not say all HRCers are this way. Just have seen too many there as compared to AKC. Which means they are in the AKC too.

You can read what you want into what I said.
Others who want to say I said "ALL HRC" this and that..... Did not read my post closely. I did not say it only happens in the HRC. You will find I used words like "I have experienced too often" and I did not say "all".


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

bjoiner said:


> Ones that I have run that use EE still accept walkups.


Ok, I didn't know that. My only experience with signing up for a Finished test with EE ended with me being unable to enter. The Sec'y told me that if they used EE, that they had to have a cut-off date. Due to that experience, I have not even attempted to enter Finished tests when I have messed around and missed the EE cut-off--so thank you, now I know that in the future I should ask the Sec'y of that particular club if they are following the EE cut-off date, or if they are allowing walk-ups


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## AmiableLabs (Jan 14, 2003)

It is ludicrous to look at pass rates to determine difficulty. There are just way, way too many other factors.

The facts have been stated here time and time again -- AKC is more technical, HRC is more in your face. Some dogs do better on the former; Some do better on the latter.

Generally speaking, they are equally difficult in their own ways.

They are both fun. In my opinion, HRC is more fun because of the guns and all the action.


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

Bill Davis said:


> Why can't everyone just run the test they like either AKC or HRC and have fun? Why must there always be an argument on what title is better? A Finished Title or a Master Title is a great accomplishment for anyone. A Grand Title or a MNH Title is the icing on the cake.
> 
> On any given weekend you may have a high % pass rate or you may have a low % pass rate in either game. The quality of the dogs now days plays a big role along with the training involved and dedication by the handlers.
> So the next time you all what to slam either AKC or HRC think about what you have gone through to get your dog where they are today and then think of the folks that have put the same effort into their dog. It's not about a MH Title is harder to get then a HRCH Title, it's about what you enjoy doing and the people you meet doing it.
> I have a Grand Title on one dog and need one more pass on my other dog. I need a few more Master passes to put a MH Tilte on both these dogs. And you know I AM PROUD OF MY ACCOMPLISHMENTS.


Well said sir


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## Jeff Huntington (Feb 11, 2007)

Just ask your dog which one he/she wants to run.....

"just give me the bird!!!!!!!!!!"""


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## Bill Davis (Sep 15, 2003)

bayou beagle said:


> Just ask your dog which one he/she wants to run.....
> 
> "just give me the bird!!!!!!!!!!"""


AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## brandywinelabs (May 21, 2008)

bjoiner said:


> Obviously these were AKC judges also, running under AKC rules, so AKC should take credit.


Damn we are defensive.

Did not say that. If you read it, I said it was a fun test put on by two HRC judges. And I used it to imply that birds run on the same line belong in the higher stakes if they are to be used anywhere.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

Have never run an AKC Hunt Test, just go by what friends who have told me. Everyone that I've talked to says HRC is more fun. A good friend told me the strange thing about AKC hunt tests is that the shots come from out in the field and he doesn't ever remember ducks or geese shooting back at him from the field while hunting. From what I have been told, the closest thing to actual hunting when testing the dogs is HRC, but what it boils down to is: at the end of the day would want to hunt with this dog and would you want others to hunt with this dog. How you got there is personal preference, as long as the dog ends up a good conservation tool and is a pleasure to hunt with. That is what the hunt tests are all about, whether it be HRC, AKC, or NAHRA tests you run.


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

brandywinelabs said:


> Perhaps I should have said that I tried to be vague. Well for good reason.
> I toyed with not posting this because of the can of worms it would open.
> But here goes. These issues are real and not arguable to me.
> 
> ...


Now my head hurts


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## Tom H. (May 17, 2005)

Just run em both if your able too. I haven't ran a HRC test since my boy got his HR title , consentrated soley on AKC after that , but you know what , since bonehead got his MH suffix , I have decided to run HRC for his Finished . god knows I can run about 4 HRC tests within a 45 minute drive from home rather than one AKC test that close , the rest being 2 hrs or better . 

As a good friend of mine told me once " You can chase all the titles you want , but at the end of the day , A good finished dog is just a good finished dog , be it AKC or UKC"
________
Marijuana Seeds


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Tom H. said:


> Just run em both if your able too. I haven't ran a HRC test since my boy got his HR title , consentrated soley on AKC after that , but you know what , since bonehead got his MH suffix , I have decided to run HRC for his Finished . god knows I can run about 4 HRC tests within a 45 minute drive from home rather than one AKC test that close , the rest being 2 hrs or better .
> 
> As a good friend of mine told me once " You can chase all the titles you want , but at the end of the day , A good finished dog is just a good finished dog , be it AKC or UKC"


Give NAHRA a try as well.


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## Tom H. (May 17, 2005)

road kill said:


> Give NAHRA a try as well.


There aren't any NAHRA events close to me that I know of. I'll have to look into it.
________
Taoism Forums


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

brandywinelabs said:


> Damn we are defensive.
> 
> Did not say that. If you read it, I said it was a fun test put on by two HRC judges. And I used it to imply that birds run on the same line belong in the higher stakes if they are to be used anywhere.


I missed this part of th earlier post. If it was a fun test what difference does it make.

I know I'm among the great unwashed but fun would imply just that to me. Lets have some fun, if you thought it wasn't fun and might hurt your dogs future you should have just watched everyone else have fun.

My dog is out of the box for fun.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

OK!!!

I wasnt gonna get involved in this sh!t but OH wel!! here goes!!
Ya all know I am tryin to get a AKC Senior on my 8 year old HRCH dog!!

We've been perty successuf so fsr!

I REALLY have found it "COMICAL" with the use of the gun in AKC tests!!!:razz::razz:

The last test I ran,, the Over officiouse (Ya keith Spellin) judge had ribbons set a t specific spots on the way to the walk up. These ribbons were placed to remind you of how the condition of action of the break open gun was to be in. At this ribbon,, the gun was to be broke!! At he next ribbon,, the gun was to be closed,, and at the final ribbon the bird would be presented for the walk up.. which you were required to shoot (Point) the gun at!! I NEBER HAD ANY GAUL DERNED BULLETS TO PUT IN THE GUN THOUGH!!!! NOTIN WENT BANG!! TALK ABOUT KISSIN YER SISTER!!!

The Judge told us He was a stickler about saftey!!! (HEHE)


Well Ya get up there and all hell breaks loose!! The birds start flyin,, Guns start goin off from Other hunters out in the field shootin yer birds!! I'm a yellin at em to knock it of!!~~~~ Theys MINE BIRDS,, but they dont listen!!!!

Well to make a long story short,, When it came time for some Handlers to handle their dogs on them Marks Ya cant handle on!! The JUDGE MADES YA HOLD THE DERNED GUN IN YER HAND and handle the dog to!!


Dont EBER come Huntin with me and try and pull this trick or Gooser I'll Pants Ya!!!

I thought the Judge Said he was a STICKLER for gun saftey!! I kept tryin to hand him my gun,,, But he just looked at me as Ifs I was a bit disturbed!!!

I eben broke it open and tried to hand it to him!! He said you hold it soldier,, or give me 50!!! I asked him How I kilt a bird when Ya dint eben give me a bullet!!! Gooser was really amased!!!

Please Mr AKC judge,, In the name a safty and good example!! Have a place to retire the gun when pups need Handle!! Theres Yougins out there!!!

Gooser

"Gun Safe" Action open,, saftey on! SIR!!!!!

COMICAL INDEED!!!!


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## Uncle Bill (Jan 18, 2003)

That'll teach ya, ya whippersnapper.;-) heh heh heh heh

UB


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

I run and train both, like both different games.

I was not going to post, but had to after Gooser's comments. Same thing happened to me, I tried to hand the "Gun" to the judge at our first senior test in Minnesota and I was promptly told that we are hunting and you do not put your "gun" down while hunting. Yea O.K. Just make sure you remember which one you are running and that you find out what each judge requires.

Colleen


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## Chance Raehn (Dec 18, 2008)

Where is Bubba? Been waiting on some of his nuggets of wisdom. Always enjoy Bubba teachings. Bubba...Bubba...where are you?


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## M&K's Retrievers (May 31, 2009)

Just wondering. I'm new to all this. What is the purpose of the "broomstick" in AKC?


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## Roughriding Woody (Jul 20, 2005)

Woody and I have ran both and enjoy every minute of it, most of the time. I get a bit frustrated... We love meeting new people and I am trying to have a better time than Woody. I say run both! Regardless, you will have fun!


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Quote!!

""""Hey Gooser!! Are you sure you want that Mark thrown outa order"""???


OUTA ORDER??????


Look my shootins already bad enough!!

If I gotts ta start worryin about what order demducks are in,, I'm in BIG trouble!!

HEY Bailey!!! Which wanna dem birds was the last bird downn,,(I dont have a friggin clue) and which one was indented???( I guess I need to use bigger pellets so I dont just dent em HUH??))))_,,,,_ And NO Ya cant go get the cripple first cause thery're aint no designated order~~~ 

HOLY BOVINE!!!

Gooser


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

P>S>!!!

"""Wada Ya mean we're huntin on the river today"""""!!!

That water MOVES!!!! That ducks a gonna float away!!!!!!
The ragin current and iceflow is gonna drift Fluffy way off the mark!! I kin only Handle once today!!!!:razz: UH OH !!!

Gooser

Really!!! I wasnt gonna get involved in this!!~~~~~ REALLY!!


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## Janet Kimbrough (Aug 14, 2003)

GulfCoast said:


> I would love to see some real numbers on that.


Per HRC National Meeting this past weekend I have those stats for the past 12 months:

HRC held 414 Regular Hunts with 24,466 dogs participating

HRC held 105 Upland Hunts with 1613 dog participating

HRC held 2 Grand Hunts with 629 dogs participating

And since 1989 267,956 dogs have participated in HRC hunts and 7,175 dogs have participated in Grand hunts.


And another stat of interest:

The HRC Foundation has presented $127,025.00 in Research Grants for canine research to institutions and Scholorships to HRC members.

Janet


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

All I know is when I look at a pedigree I only see AKC letterings on the form. No HRC. Has to speak for something. I run females and as far as I know there aren't any HRC clubs around me so it behooves me to run AKC>


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## Mike Boufford (Sep 28, 2004)

Scott Greenwood said:


> All I know is when I look at a pedigree I only see AKC letterings on the form. No HRC. Has to speak for something.


Why don't you go register your dog with UKC and look for the AKC titles on that pedigree. Hint: they won't show up. So your point is basically pointless.


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## Kevin WI (Mar 14, 2003)

Scott Greenwood said:


> I run females and as far as I know there aren't any HRC clubs around me so it behooves me to run AKC>


There are Four HRC clubs within a 3 hour ride of you and one probably within an hour ride.



justbehindit said:


> Why don't you go register your dog with UKC and look for the AKC titles on that pedigree. Hint: they won't show up. So your point is basically pointless.


I agree


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## Margo Ellis (Jan 19, 2003)

There are different choices of venues in different parts of the country, AKC, HRC/UKC, and NAHRA all have a place for our dogs to run. Instead of picking which one is better why don't we concentrate on what is best for our dogs and us? If you are a gun dog owner who just wants a much better dog in the blind with you and your buddy, I would have to go with HRC or NAHRA. If you want a dog that can almost do calculus in the field AKC Master is the place for you. I CHOOSE to run all of them when I can, I enjoy all of them for different reasons. I PREFER HRC over all of them for different reasons. 
There isn't one that is better then the other, they are just different, and sometimes different is okay.


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## Steve Peacock (Apr 9, 2009)

MooseGooser said:


> The JUDGE MADES YA HOLD THE DERNED GUN IN YER HAND and handle the dog to!!


Gooser, you've never had to hold your gun when handling your dog while hunting? Flooded fields, flooded timber, etc. Do it all the time and can always keep gun safe. Granted I prefer to put my gun down and always let the handlers set in down when I'm judging, but it is not too difficult to handle and keep the gun safe.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

After reading some of this if I run hunt test again prolly gonna be AKC. My huntin dogs know I can't hit my butt with a base fiddle say they always look at my huntin buddies shootin. I might have accidently trained the perfect AKC dog.


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## MooseGooser (May 11, 2003)

Mr Peacock Sir!!

SURE I have held my gun and Handled my dog at the same time when hunting,, and feel quite comfortable doing it also!!,, but my point was that here was a set of Judges that proclaimed in the handlers meeting that they were all about gun safty,, even going so far as to have ribbon markers on the ground dictating when then action of the gun was to be broke open,, then closed,, BUT when it came to a handler having to handle their dog on their test,, the JUDGES that wanted to adhere to good gun saftey didnt have the courtesy or GOOD GUN SAFTY PRACTICE to take the gun from the handler while they handled the dog!!

Some people at AKC tests are NOT very tuned into what that Fake gun represents!! They treat it as a FAKE gun!! I saw handlers when handling the dog ,,with the gun closed and over their shoulder,, pointing at the Judges chair!! I watched Judges carry that same gun back to the Holding blind for the next handler with the action closed,, and the Barrel being carried level to the ground, pointing every which way!!

These are actions if executed HRC tests,, will get you 1 warning,,, but if repeated,, you will be disqualified from the test!! (If I was a judged and a handler came to the line with the gun over his shoulder pointing at me though,, He'd be done right then and there!)

If an organization is going to require you to handle a gun at the line,, they ought to practice extreamly good gun safty. Set the example folks!!!

A simple gun rack at the line is a very easy method to avoid problems,, and also set good examples to youngins!! Remember!! there are people watchin this stuff!! You really wanna set bad examples???


P.S.

Dont EVER ask again what Goosers personal practices MAY be when standin in a flooded muddy field either!! 

Gooser


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

Kevin WI said:


> There are Four HRC clubs within a 3 hour ride of you and one probably within an hour ride.
> 
> 
> I agree


I have equal number if not more AKC tests within same distance, your not swaying my decision much. I also belong to an AKC club, even though in our bylaws it does state that we can hold NAHRA tests. We were a card holding member of NAHRA until this year.

As far as registering UKC. I have never even thought of registering under UKC. When you look at ads for pups what to do you see, AKC. So why would I want to register under UKC. If I plan on doing a breeding with one of my females the standard is AKC.

I even bought a pup that is dual registered and I can tell you I will never run a UKC test. Maybe Nahra if I run out of AKC tests!


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## dixiedog (Jun 18, 2007)

MooseGooser said:


> The JUDGE MADES YA HOLD THE DERNED GUN IN YER HAND and handle the dog to!!


I had the same experience once, but in a HRC Finished test. The Judge told me that I could not put the gun down once I sent my dog, but had to hold it until AFTER my 1st handle!! I am not quite sure how this is consistent with gun safety.

Either in the HRC or AKC, requiring handlers to handle with a gun in their hand makes evryone look dumb


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## paul young (Jan 5, 2003)

i wish the HRC only and AKC only people would stop bashing each other's choice of game.

you're not going to change anyone's mind, and it shows how narrow minded you are for all of the rest of us to see.

a true finished retriever will look good no matter what test situation the handler places them in, they won't care who is throwing the birds, nor will they care what the ribbons look like.

you think your dog is all that? show me MHR, MH AND HRCH titles and i'll gladly propose a toast to you and your dog. for that is truly a versatile hunting dog we would all be happy to hunt over.-Paul


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## Scott Greenwood (Mar 25, 2008)

paul young said:


> i wish the HRC only and AKC only people would stop bashing each other's choice of game.
> 
> you're not going to change anyone's mind, and it shows how narrow minded you are for all of the rest of us to see.
> 
> ...


Thanks Paul


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## road kill (Feb 15, 2009)

Run the tests you want and try, if you can, to ENJOY them!!

Run them all, it's cheaper than golf!!


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## Chance Raehn (Dec 18, 2008)

Line 'em up and let 'em run. It's all good.


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