# Golden Bitches



## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

With the recent thread about Golden studs, it got me wondering about the Golden bitches out there, and what some would consider "good breeding potential." (For lack of a better phrase) 
On the "Golden Studs" thread Melanie Foster was able to locate a past thread(that I had forgotten about) on that issue. (Was a good read) I'm wondering if there's something like that out there about this subject? Just trying to provoke a little constructive conversation on this. 
John Baitinger


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## Jill Simmons (Oct 2, 2008)

Paws is quite a girl. http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=26803 AFC Topbrass Pawsability OD FDHF


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Paws is going on 11 years old. What I'm getting at is; what does the Golden breed have currently, and potentially as far as females who could possibly produce well. Now and coming up. Again, this came from conversation with my wife, after reading the Golden Studs thread. And, we were asking each other, hypothetically, what Golden studs would you breed? And, who would you breed them to? All I'm posting about is the latter. But, I guess That both questions should be out there for discussion, since that's what led to this post.


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Jaco's Red Desert Cider*** was just recently bred to Ranger. This should be an interesting match. Pups are due around the middle of March. Cider is owned by Gale Mettenbrink and trained by Jerry Patopea.

Arleen


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Thanks, Arleen. That's what I'm asking.
Hey, isn't that that girl I saw Gale run at specialty in Conn.? She JAM'd the Q, right?
BAIT


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## sterregold (May 27, 2005)

Medie Robinson's Silk (Topbrass Smooth as Silk MH ***) is quite a girl. She absolutely smacked that final water series to win the Open at the GRCA national in September. She was bred to Rockerin Red River Ruckus (it will be interesting to see what the resulting little guy does--talk about fiesty!), and her daughter Dottie (Boomer kid) has recently had a litter by Bart.


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Bait said:


> Thanks, Arleen. That's what I'm asking.
> Hey, isn't that that girl I saw Gale run at specialty in Conn.? She JAM'd the Q, right?
> BAIT


John, yes that is the dog. She is a spectacular little girl. Her littermate, Jaco's Red Desert Chester was bred to our female, Master's Eye To The Skye SH WC also. Skye is out of Kiowa's A Place In Time MH (Freeze) and Greene's Miss Ellie MH. They will be due about March 10 - 12. 

Arleen


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

Just wanted to point out to the management that /paul and I have been behaving and not GDGing up this thread (despite powerful urges to say something rude about bandanas and like that).

Accumulating "good boy" credits as we speak regards

Bubba


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

Bubba said:


> Just wanted to point out to the management that /paul and I have been behaving and not GDGing up this thread (despite powerful urges to say something rude about bandanas and like that).
> 
> Accumulating "good boy" credits as we speak regards
> 
> Bubba


A sure sign the end is near.


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

Bubba said:


> Just wanted to point out to the management that /paul and I have been behaving and not GDGing up this thread (despite powerful urges to say something rude about bandanas and like that).
> 
> Accumulating "good boy" credits as we speak regards
> 
> Bubba


What's wrong with bandanas?


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

Lulu, Billie, Paws, Frisbies kate, Pilot to name a few but they are probably done breeding.

Upcoming bitches, Dollie, Jump, Haley, Lucy, to name a few. 

Silk, Case, not sure about their owners breeding these fine girls.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Golden Bitches? Wasnt that a sitcom a few yrs back?

My memories fuzzy.


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

duk4me said:


> Golden Bitches? Wasnt that a sitcom a few yrs back?
> 
> My memories fuzzy.


Been renamed- they call it "The View" now

Sorry- couldn't stand it any longer.

Lack of restraint regards

Bubba


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

Bubba said:


> Been renamed- they call it "The View" now
> 
> Sorry- couldn't stand it any longer.
> 
> ...


Sometimes it just festers u can't hold it bak an boom there it is.

BTW I luved them Golden Bitches.....especially the dum un. Rose can stay here anytime.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

When I think of dominating or big time Golden Bitches one name is clearly on top..............Melanie Foster, 'nuf said!


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

I soooooo knew that was coming.
Are you that brave or suicidal regards,
Becky


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

Becky Mills said:


> I soooooo knew that was coming.
> Are you that brave or suicidal regards,
> Becky


He is going to be payin' and payin' and payin'..........

I think Melonie's from the school of don't get mad......... get even regards,


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Man, I deserve a stinkin medal for my restraint....

/paul


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

John Gassner said:


> When I think of dominating or big time Golden Bitches one name is clearly on top..............Melanie Foster, 'nuf said!


HahahHHAHAHhaahahahAHAHAhahahahahAHahahahah

Sooooooo what do you want us to do with your remains- not that there are going to be a whole lot.

Off to find my lawn chair and popcorn regards

Bubba


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## T-Pines (Apr 17, 2007)

Not to ruin the more enteraining flavor that the thread has taken, I will digress back to the question for a moment.
What about "Peaches"( Topbrass I Hope You Dance MH QAA). I train with her on occasion, nice looking girl good size, excellent all the way around and a superb water dog. She has a great pedigree and has produced well so far. She produced "Jump" and Topbrass Pay The PiperQAA.
Colleen


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

Yes back to the subject to help our good friend Bait out.

Girls that I have competed against and impressed me.

Already mentioned Dollie

Debbie Chevarini's Jimmi, wow that dog is a FREAK!!!!!!!! So fast and intense and is throwing that in her pups. Will she ever be bred again, probably not.

Bev weaver's HRCH MH Lodi is lightning quick, nice style

Millponds baby boomer, "Babe" a Silk puppy, I think she won a derby judged by Gassner, he has a soft spot when judging. I saw her place 2nd in a qual. Nice dog


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

John Gassner said:


> When I think of dominating or big time Golden Bitches one name is clearly on top..............Melanie Foster, 'nuf said!


John, I'de be real scared cuz we haven't heard from Melanie yet and I hear she's hit the Missouri border and she's wearing black.;-)


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

ErinsEdge said:


> John, I'de be real scared cuz we haven't heard from Melanie yet and I hear she's hit the Missouri border and she's wearing black.;-)


You know it's coming. I've been checking this thread about three times an hour a'waiting her response. Ooooh it's coming.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2009)

Oh sweetness, that's one of the nicest things you've ever said about me. You shouldn't have...no really, you *SHO U L DN'T HAVE*...

I think the reason this thread hasn't taken on a life like the Golden Studs thread as Bait had hoped is because discussing great producing girls is a whole different ball game. It often doesn't become apparent that a bitch is a great producer until her reproductive days are almost over.

I know that I used to wait until my girls were 4 or 5 and had proven themselves performance wise before breeding them. Well considering that it may take 2-3 years for those offspring to show up on the radar...you do the math. I decided that was enough of that strategy and now will breed them early, provided they are showing me enough of what I want to see. This gives us the opportunity to see how their offspring look talent wise and health wise while the girls continue their competition goals and still allows plenty of time for other litter(s) once we have decided she does indeed deserve to be bred again.

This leads me to my next point. If a bitch is being bred young, at say two years old, how can you know what to expect? How can you even know how much talent she has?

a) You can't, but you can make an educated guess. b) You have to be able to trust the breeder. 

I'm going to start with b). I don't mean just trust that the breeder is telling the truth. I mean you need to be able to trust that the breeder knows what the heck they are talking about. You need to be able to know they have the experience to evaluate dogs and their potential talent at a particular level _from experience_. 

There are few things that drive me crazier than folks who advertise "field trial potential" puppies and I look at their website and they have never put anything higher than a Junior Hunter on any of their dogs. I have seen ads on this forum from folks promoting these field trial puppies (all breeds, not just Goldens) and the description of their bitch includes things like "can run all day" or "great nose." Huh? That's nice and all, but...

I'd like to take it a step further and talk about how folks describe bitches and I'm going to use Arleen's post about Cider as an example because she'll know I'm not picking on her. She states that Cider "is a spectacular little girl."

This is what I would want to know if I were to venture to speculate as to whether she will be a good producer or not:

What makes her spectacular? 
Does she have spectacular talent? Traits?
Does she have a spectacular competition record?
Does her pro think she is spectacular?
Why does Arleen think she is spectacular?
Does Arleen know what spectacular is?
What is Arleen's experience in evaluating performance?
Does her sire have a spectacular production history?
Does her dam?
Does she have littermates that have performance histories worth noting?

Let's get back to a). We can't predict the future, but we can stack the deck in our favor. You can ask many of the same questions that I asked about Arleen's opinion of Cider. We can look at combinations of dogs that have clicked in the past and hope they continue to do so in the following generation. We can look at bitches who have produced well with multiple sired and hope their girls continue to do the same.

In summary, rather than just throwing a few names out there of girls who might be expecting litters, it might make more sense to step back and look at the big picture which is kind of where the other thread took us at times. 

Remember that it's not just how it looks on paper. Pretty pedigrees don't ensure success. And again, nothing ensures it, but we can most certainly do our homework and chances are, we can increase our odds at cookin' up some good ones in the next generation.


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

4+3=7
5+2=7
5+3=8

How did I do?


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> Oh sweetness, that's one of the nicest things you've ever said about me. You shouldn't have...no really, you *SHO U L DN'T HAVE*...
> 
> I think the reason this thread hasn't taken on a life like the Golden Studs thread as Bait had hoped is because discussing great producing girls is a whole different ball game. It often doesn't become apparent that a bitch is a great producer until her reproductive days are almost over.
> 
> ...


Spectacular is as spectacular does. This relates to field titles and field pedigrees, I do not play with conformation titles. 

No matter how spectacular the bitch is or the titles she possesses, that is not a guarantee for performance. Look at how many bitches with no titles or JH bitches have produced FC or AFC title offspring, and in one case, an NAFC for Goldens. I like the last part of Melanie's post the best, you have to look at the big picture. 

So does the GRCA title of OD and OS have no standing anymore? It is not a cake walk for a bitch to earn an OD title and I use those as an indication of performance from generation to generation.

I would gladly take a pup out of an untitled bitch pending on the pedigree. Not everyone would do this. I also have owned pups and have bred to an untitled male who has produced MH and QAA offspring. Although he is out of a brood bitch and Cain, some people have reported weak water dogs out of Cain, my experience with Cain offspring and grandpups have been the opposite. 

It doesn't pay to post a ton of litters although I would love to read through a thread on planned field Golden litters.


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Good stuff so far! Titles are NOT the whole picture, just part of it. Some dogs do have better pedigrees. Some pedigrees blend better with/than others. So many dogs of of certain litters turn out quite different physically and mentally than their littermates.

How much is genetic and how much is environmental?

Bait's question about which bitches to watch is a good one with possible tricky answers.

Why I referred to Melanie is obvious in her reply. She doesn't just give lip service to the breed and try to cash in on the "easy money". She works very hard at trying to figure what what works and why and maybe just as importantly, what doesn't work and why not? She is the best bitch (and stud) picker I know.

Those like her, that put in the time and spend the money for clearances and to compete are worth their weight in gold (how much did you say you weighed Mel?).

I also think it wise to not always wait until a bitch is titled before having litters. If we waited for all bitches to get certain titles we would eliminate the chance to see how they nicked with multiple studs, or repeat breedings or might miss their breeding years altogether.

Selective breeding is all about taking chances while trying to hedge on the outcome. Trying to increase your odds of certain outcomes while minimizing others.

Anyone can go to the stud with the most points. Same goes for titles on bitches. If that's all it took to create great pups I think we would be seeing a lot more out there. You can never know too much about all the players in a dog's pedigree, including the human element. Breeding is both art and science. Many attempt it, few do it well (often).

Puppy placement may be even the most important factor. Some BYB dogs have been placed with good handlers and have accomplished much. Other dogs that look great on paper never amount to much.

To answer Bait's question specifically, I really like everything I have seen with Babe who is out of Silk. She could become a really good one. Gemmi is a nice dog that will never be tested at the highest level. Who knows what her potential is? I hope her pups do well.

Haley is an interesting dog. Again, how much is man made?

Everything I have heard about Jump is that She's the real deal. Great looks, style and brains. I think her pups will be awsome.

I am also partial to Lucy. We loved the pedigree and love the product. Hopefully the offspring will be just as HOT!

I think a name to add in the near future is Annie. She comes from a special pedigree that includes Devil, Bede, Brandy and Steeler to name a few.

I know there are many other talented bitches. What are your most important criteria?

I Prefer to know the bitch and to have trained with and/or seen her run multiple set-ups or tests or at least know someone that has.

Brains are probably first, since they are often the hardest to come by. Personality is high up for me. Not too soft or too hard.
Physically I like a good sized athletic build in both males and females.
Health clearances important, but only one element in the mix (actually many elements as there are many different clearances).
Pedigree in regards to all of the above.


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## Beverly Burns (Apr 20, 2006)

I will respond to this topic as I did with the stud dog topic in saying that when you have an accomplished competitor, it is difficult to give up the time and energy for breeding. Two heat cycles per year minimize competition opportunities-so throw in a big batch of puppies and you pretty much kill much of the year.
Pixie" (Little Bit of Gold Dust) is my second field trial animal and first bitch. I waited until she was four because my goal before breeding her was to get all health clearances, achieve a spot on the National Derby List, get All Age Qualified, and a Master Hunt Title. She exceeded my expectation in also achieving an all breed Amateur 4th and 2 Jams and an Open Jam to date. I bred her once to establish her little body as a mother and will breed her once again down the road for Bev!
Now, having had that litter last spring, placing puppies was the most difficult decision encountered. Unlike the Lab world where puppies from dual titled parents and great pedigrees go to folks who will train and campaign them, we Golden field folks are just a handful and many times loveingly stay with our own lines. Getting puppies into worthy and trustworthy competition homes is a crap shoot at best.


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Beverly Burns said:


> Getting puppies into worthy and trustworthy competition homes is a crap shoot at best.


Interesting perspective. Because of the reasons you and Melanie have stated, I think that if getting good pups into good competition homes is a crap shoot, finding a good competition golden must be the lottery . There are far fewer of them to begin with and, because the golden folks seem to be fairly close knit, the good litters seem to be taken before the pups hit the ground. I got lucky with my last pup as the litter turned out with only one female and I happened to start bugging the breeder at just the right time.

If you want a pup with promise for field games, it is much easier with labs. One of my hunting buddies who just wants meat dogs called me up several years ago and said he had just picked up a new pup out of the classifieds and asked me if I had ever heard of his sire who was supposedly big in field trials, Lean Mac.

If you are just a one or two dog at a time guy, like I am, unless you start working on it very early, put in the research and networking hard to get to the right folks, it is very difficult to find a good golden.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2009)

DoubleHaul said:


> unless you start working on it very early, put in the research and networking hard to get to the right folks


How else would one find a good pup? 

If breeders are willing to put in the blood, sweat & tears (sorry about the cliche), why shouldn't buyers be expected to do the same?


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## GoldDog (Feb 10, 2009)

This is great, I haven't seen this many Golden people in one place ever. I recently rejoined RTF after a number of years to begin a search for a new pup. Melanie is right, it is a lot of work finding the right pup and the Golden Stud 2009, the 35 pages of 2006-2007, and now this thread are really making life much easier. I just lost my Speaker boy and am searching for my next best friend. Thanks all!


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

Melanie Foster said:


> How else would one find a good pup?
> 
> If breeders are willing to put in the blood, sweat & tears (sorry about the cliche), why shouldn't buyers be expected to do the same?


Not saying it isn't what we should do or complaining about it. It is just easier to find a good lab than goldens. Of course, the trade off is that then you would have a lab instead of a golden, which would not do at all.  If you love goldens it is definitely worthwhile.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> discussing great producing girls is a whole different ball game.
> 
> rather than just throwing a few names out there of girls who might be expecting litters, it might make more sense to step back and look at the big picture which is kind of where the other thread took us at times.
> 
> Remember that it's not just how it looks on paper. Pretty pedigrees don't ensure success. And again, nothing ensures it, but we can most certainly do our homework and chances are, we can increase our odds at cookin' up some good ones in the next generation.


Now we're gettin' somewhere. 
I've had some conversation on this subject with some people in the past. Felt the need to open up some more conversation, and invite the public in on it. That's what this forum is for, right? The first sentence in the quote is the reason for the need.

The second sentence makes sense too. Not that those who posted names of upcoming litters didn't contribute....You did. But, we also need to look at that and the rest of the quote. It's all a crap shoot when you come down to it. Getting the right sire and dam together is like a roll of the dice, even if you did the homework and took notes on the behavior, temperment, talents, brains, desire, etc. And, Like Bev said, finding the right homes is also hard. Won't get into the obvious reasons why the right home is important. Most of us know those.(Ihope) But, for this discussion a big reason would also be so that the breedings are visible. If not for that, some of the inherent talent gets hidden, and therefore lost. Makes it very hard to do the forementioned homework. This is good to get into this discussion on a public forum where you'll get names of dogs, and input from people and places you don't see everyday. Gives you a start. This is one of the reasons We like to go to specialty every year, no matter what part of the country it's in. Matter of fact, actually prefer it to be not in my area. I get to see dogs run who I would normally never get to see. I get to look at the catalog and remember that I wanted to see a dog out of a certain breeding, take notes, and see what that dog produces when it has a breeding. I get to see how they run, react to factors, people dogs, etc., etc., Eventually get to see their get perform. Get to see who trained them and handled them. Need to get "up close and personal". It's also good to see what dogs the top breeders are watching too. Need to pay attention. Just like when you're training your dog. 

Yes, it's still a crap shoot, but it helps. This is why Kathy and I opened up this thread. There have been some good posts on this. Thanks.
BAIT & KATE


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Well Melanie, you pinned my ears to the wall with that one and rightly so. I made a statement and didn’t back it up. However, I felt this was not the place for me to advertise Gale’s upcoming litter. I was putting out a name for Bait’s request for noteworthy Golden bitches and I felt Cider definitely fell in that category.

I will, however, back up why I used the word spectacular since people who really know me well, know that I tend to under sell rather than exaggerate as is so often done.

Cider’s sire, AFC Honeycreek’s Jammin Jaco MH OS, is a noted Outstanding Sire with many many offspring in both field trial and hunt test, titling consistently. Cider’s Dam, Semper Splashdown Stary Skye ** is just one offspring’s title away from her OD. Cider has proven her trainability, marking, and desire through many placements and jams including a Qual first. She runs a straight line, is hard charging and also exhibits extremely good house manners and temperament. Her Pro is very impressed with her performance and so is her owner. I happen to respect both of their opinions. Since Cider tends to score on the higher side of just about every category, in the Golden world, I would call her pretty spectacular. If judged against Labs, probably I would categorize her on the high side of very good. But again, the word “spectacular” is a very subjective adjective. I just happen to think Cider is pretty darned outstanding.

Arleen


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Ya done good, Arleen.


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## Matelite (Oct 9, 2007)

I would like to thank Arleen for her comments about my golden bitch,Cider. I have been running goldens in field trials since the early 1970's. She is the first bitch that I have had that has won any stake. her win was in a 53 dog Qual. and she has also has numerous placements running on the West Coast curcuit. Cider has also gone to the last series in 2 of the 5 opens she has run. Now to get to the nuts and bolts of this, Do I think she is going to be and FC? Probably not. All you have to do is go to a trial out here and see the dogs she is competing against. My trainer, Jerry Patopea has 5 FC dogs on his truck that Cider runs against every week. This is a tall order and also take into consideration that Billy Sarginini, Jimmy Gonia, Luann Pleasant, John Henninger, and Bill Totten are at these same trials you can see what she is up against. That doesn't mean that we are complaining but you have to be realistic. Gary Zellner, who judged the National this year told people this past week that he has judged Ranger and has personally run Cider and if he was a golden person he would want a puppy out of this breeding. Gary Algreen has reserved one of these pups and 5 are already spoken for. I Have heard from various sources who I greatly respect that Ranger puppies have not been very successful in golden homes but we are going to see since half of these pups are spoken for and going to Lab homes. We all have to be realistic and accept that this is all a crap shoot. Cider is a from a litter that she was the left over pup and I decided to keep her, The best pup out of that litter never went into formal training. His name is Jaco's Red Desert Chester. An amazing dog that never had an opportunity. He has a litter on the way with one of Arleen and Greg Hornsby's good bitches. Thanks for letting me vent since I am much more of a reader than a poster.


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

I went to work and all this happened. Wow.

Tremendous thread with great discussion. 

I was about to post that Melanie had hit it out of the park, then I read the subsequent threads. Its back to back to back home runs.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Matelite said:


> I would like to thank Arleen for her comments about my golden bitch,Cider. I have been running goldens in field trials since the early 1970's. She is the first bitch that I have had that has won any stake. her win was in a 53 dog Qual. and she has also has numerous placements running on the West Coast curcuit. Cider has also gone to the last series in 2 of the 5 opens she has run. Now to get to the nuts and bolts of this, Do I think she is going to be and FC? Probably not. All you have to do is go to a trial out here and see the dogs she is competing against. My trainer, Jerry Patopea has 5 FC dogs on his truck that Cider runs against every week. This is a tall order and also take into consideration that Billy Sarginini, Jimmy Gonia, Luann Pleasant, John Henninger, and Bill Totten are at these same trials you can see what she is up against. That doesn't mean that we are complaining but you have to be realistic. Gary Zellner, who judged the National this year told people this past week that he has judged Ranger and has personally run Cider and if he was a golden person he would want a puppy out of this breeding. Gary Algreen has reserved one of these pups and 5 are already spoken for. I Have heard from various sources who I greatly respect that Ranger puppies have not been very successful in golden homes but we are going to see since half of these pups are spoken for and going to Lab homes. We all have to be realistic and accept that this is all a crap shoot. Cider is a from a litter that she was the left over pup and I decided to keep her, The best pup out of that litter never went into formal training. His name is Jaco's Red Desert Chester. An amazing dog that never had an opportunity. He has a litter on the way with one of Arleen and Greg Hornsby's good bitches. Thanks for letting me vent since I am much more of a reader than a poster.


A more motley crue of folks never existed.  

Hey Arleen is Gregg coming up for the trial in two weeks?

/Paul

ps. I continue to show superhuman strengths of restraint in not posting pics in this thread. No comments from you either Randy....


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## Troopers Mom (Nov 19, 2005)

Hey Paul,

I am so very proud of you in your self control. I know how difficult it must be. 

Unfortunately Gregg will not be coming up for the Willamette trial. He has to stay home and make money so we can pay Jerry. I see you are running in it. Good for you. Remember this..... ping pong is a no no. 

But hey, while you are there, maybe you can get a good look at Gambler. He will be the good looking yellow hunk in the derby. 

Arleen


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Troopers Mom said:


> Hey Paul,
> 
> I am so very proud of you in your self control. I know how difficult it must be.
> 
> ...


 Bummer. Running the trial is way more fun that working...I will look out for Gambler....

/Paul


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> ps. I continue to show superhuman strengths of restraint in not posting pics in this thread. No comments from you either Randy....


Pleeeeeeeze Paul can I comment?
You are indeed showing restraint. I have often wondered if you have a whole photo file of compromised goldens at your disposal. How you can come up with some of these photos so quickly is beyond me. Good job for holding off.

However Paul, you did lose points by not mentioning that Amber is likely the super-bitch of the future!

Hand


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Klamath Hunting Gold said:


> Pleeeeeeeze Paul can I comment?
> You are indeed showing restraint. I have often wondered if you have a whole photo file of compromised goldens at your disposal. How you can come up with some of these photos so quickly is beyond me. Good job for holding off.
> 
> However Paul, you did lose points by not mentioning that Amber is likely the super-bitch of the future!
> ...


I tend to leave the super bitches alone. I have enough trouble with the normal bitches....

/Paul


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## Sharon van der Lee (May 25, 2004)

If Jump is the same female I saw at Carol's place in Montana this summer, I was truly impressed. Her level of maturity and talent really showed. I can't imagine this dog not going on to great things. 

Sharon


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Matelite said:


> I would like to thank Arleen for her comments about my golden bitch,Cider. I have been running goldens in field trials since the early 1970's. She is the first bitch that I have had that has won any stake. her win was in a 53 dog Qual. and she has also has numerous placements running on the West Coast curcuit. Cider has also gone to the last series in 2 of the 5 opens she has run. Now to get to the nuts and bolts of this, Do I think she is going to be and FC? Probably not. All you have to do is go to a trial out here and see the dogs she is competing against. My trainer, Jerry Patopea has 5 FC dogs on his truck that Cider runs against every week. This is a tall order and also take into consideration that Billy Sarginini, Jimmy Gonia, Luann Pleasant, John Henninger, and Bill Totten are at these same trials you can see what she is up against. That doesn't mean that we are complaining but you have to be realistic. Gary Zellner, who judged the National this year told people this past week that he has judged Ranger and has personally run Cider and if he was a golden person he would want a puppy out of this breeding. Gary Algreen has reserved one of these pups and 5 are already spoken for. I Have heard from various sources who I greatly respect that Ranger puppies have not been very successful in golden homes but we are going to see since half of these pups are spoken for and going to Lab homes. We all have to be realistic and accept that this is all a crap shoot. Cider is a from a litter that she was the left over pup and I decided to keep her, The best pup out of that litter never went into formal training. His name is Jaco's Red Desert Chester. An amazing dog that never had an opportunity. He has a litter on the way with one of Arleen and Greg Hornsby's good bitches. Thanks for letting me vent since I am much more of a reader than a poster.


A "Jaco" daughter such as "Cider" in combination with "Ranger".....

"Spectacular"! , Gale... 

Vent away anytime you would like...great read!

Judy


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Matelite said:


> My trainer, Jerry Patopea has 5 FC dogs on his truck that Cider runs against every week. This is a tall order and also take into consideration that Billy Sarginini, Jimmy Gonia, Luann Pleasant, John Henninger, and Bill Totten are at these same trials you can see what she is up against.


At California spring trials so far, you can also add the Open dogs handled by Eric Fangsrud, Brooke Vandebrake, and Gary Abbott. You can also add John and Janice Gunn and their Goldens who are also tough competitors. Plus, there are some other top dogs who place in the Open who are handled by their top notch amateur owners. 

The Amateur competition (dogs and handlers) is also very tough here in California. There are many excellent amateur handlers who run the excellent dogs they own. 

Go to EE and look at the entries for the CA trials held so far this year (San Jose, Lassen, Sagehens -- and the big Sacramento Valley trial this coming weekend). Look at the Open stake entries, then look at the Amateur entries and you'll see more than half of the Amateur dogs also run in the Open (handled sometimes by their pro, sometimes by their owner). 

For example, out of an 80 dog Open stake, there will be as many as 50 of the same dogs also entered in the Amateur.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

golden boy 2 said:


> Lulu, Billie, Paws, Frisbies kate, Pilot to name a few but they are probably done breeding.
> 
> Lulu was spayed. A loss for the breed as far as what she could have produced goes.


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## helencalif (Feb 2, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> Oh
> I think the reason this thread hasn't taken on a life like the Golden Studs thread as Bait had hoped is because discussing great producing girls is a whole different ball game. It often doesn't become apparent that a bitch is a great producer until her reproductive days are almost over.
> 
> This leads me to my next point. If a bitch is being bred young, at say two years old, how can you know what to expect? How can you even know how much talent she has?
> ...


I agree with Melanie on the points she made in her post -- especially the first point, "It often doesn't become apparent that a bitch is a great producer until her reproductive days are almost over."


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## Bubba (Jan 3, 2003)

helencalif said:


> I agree with Melanie on the points she made in her post -- especially the first point, "It often doesn't become apparent that a bitch is a great producer until her reproductive days are almost over."


Yeah, the jury is still out on Hillary- one of the most famous bitches of all time.

Prolly shouldn't double up on lawyer regards

Bubba


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

helencalif said:


> I agree with Melanie on the points she made in her post -- especially the first point, "It often doesn't become apparent that a bitch is a great producer until her reproductive days are almost over."


So do I. Hence the need for the discussion. When we started it, we weren't just looking for names of bitches to watch, it was the discussion we were also looking for. And, I think it seems to have gone pretty well so far. Would like to hear from some more breeders and other people who "pay attention" to it.


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## Diane Brunelle (Jun 11, 2004)

Bait,

Thanks for starting this discussion. I have certainly read it with interest, although I am not a breeder, I do pay attention to these important issues in our breed. 

Part of the 2006 Golden Thread that Melanie resurrected referred to a "total package" and that has really stayed with me. That is what I look for in a Golden. 

Another point I really agree with is that you have to be able to trust that your breeder knows what they are talking about....and is able to place pups in the right homes. With the market right now, that can be challenging at best. I'm sure many great pups never achieve their full potential because they are not in the right homes.

Folks, please keep the posts coming. It's been a very interesting read...

Diane


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## John Gassner (Sep 11, 2003)

Why can everyone else say the M word without a problem? I say it and I'm getting phone calls and e-mails in the middle of the night wondering if I'm still alive!

Seriously Helen.....and others, we know that their are some tough circuits to run. The left coast is maybe not the easiest, but we all know that between Texas and La. to Minnesota and Wisconsin exists the toughest circuit of them all.

Some of the old blood that regularly produced nice field Goldens include such names as Jackie Mertens, Pat Sadler, Mickey Kindregan (sp), Torch Flinn and Mercedes Hitchcock to name a few. Mr Frisbee being one of the few men much involved. In Canada Mike and Val Ducross should be included.

Who else is consistantly producing nice litters of field Goldens? I know Jackie still has a few. Joseph McCann has had some too. Any others?

John


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Stop trying to suck up, sweetness. I'm wearing head to toe camo and you won't see me until it's too late...


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> Why can everyone else say the M word without a problem?


'Cause the rest of us don't mention the M word with the B word.


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

That Texas circuit is a cakewalk. Geez only 116 in the Open compared to California's 83.
Anyone ever hear these names.......Rorem, Edwards, Trott, Schrader, Kunzer, I surely haven't. A guy named Billy Eckett will be next, never heard of him, must be a newbie.


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## Diane Brunelle (Jun 11, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> Stop trying to suck up, sweetness. I'm wearing head to toe camo and you won't see me until it's too late...



I'm kinda interested in those cement boots...have you crossed the Mo border yet


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Matelite said:


> Thanks for letting me vent since I am much more of a reader than a poster.


Gale,

People usually vent out of frustration. Since you and I know each other, I just want to make sure you understand my post was not in any way intending to downplay Cider's quality.

My intention here is to get people asking questions about the dogs and the people who state their opinions about the dogs.

Has anyone gone through any of the bitches listed and used the checklist of what may produce in the future as an exercise? If not, why not? 

Try it and let the forum know the results you predict.  I mean that in a sincere way.

Melanie


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## Becky Mills (Jun 6, 2004)

John, goodness I'll miss you but I'll always cherish the memories of our phone chats.
By the way, since you never saw fit to give me a Team Jake tee shirt, the least you can do to make up for it is to will me your share in Boone. 
RIP regards,
Becky


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## scott spalding (Aug 27, 2005)

Melanie Foster said:


> Stop trying to suck up, sweetness. I'm wearing head to toe camo and you won't see me until it's too late...


Head to toe camo and a sneek attack this shines a new light on golden bitches. I would put a smile face after that but I couldn't find one in camo.
________
Yamaha bruin 350 history


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Melanie Foster said:


> Gale,
> 
> People usually vent out of frustration. Since you and I know each other, I just want to make sure you understand my post was not in any way intending to downplay Cider's quality.
> 
> ...


It's kind of hard to do, just hearing names. Other than, the fact that you can look at their pedigrees and see what ones had parents (and grandparents) who not nesecarily have all the titles one would want, but those who produced well. Another good idea to do with the list, is to attempt to go and see them run. Meet them, see them around people, other dogs, get to know them, if you can. I know that sounds hard, but that's how it is. That's what the breeders have to do. So, if you wanna really do your homework, that's what you need to do. But, it also helps if you actually know what to look for. Not all of us do. I know, a lot of times, I don't. One tricky thing for the general pulic to sort out is, watching a dog run. When you see them do something wrong, was it man-made mistake (lack of training) or inherent? And, vice versa.? And, when they do somethig really well....same thing. Man-made or inherent? Tough to tell to the untrained eye. Even looking for the desire can be a little tricky. Let's say you're watching a dog run a tough mark. Does he take off like he'll run over a pile of food to get there? Is he looking like he's focused on the mark or looking around like he wants to see what else is going on? If he doesn't find the mark right away, is he eagerly trying to find it? If he ends up a little short does he appear to have the ambition to continue on? And, I know these are just some examples of what I would be looking at. Need to watch the ears, the tail, the body language, etc. And, there is more detail to each of those examples than meets the eye. (And that I have time to type, 'cause I gotta go to work in a minute) But, that's the point, there's alot to look for. Again, have to have some trust that your breeder is doing this and knows what he/she is looking for. But, anyhow, that's what I'd be doing with my list, if I were looking for a dog, or a bitch or stud to breed with. Anybody has anything to add or edit, add or edit away. That's what we're here for.
BAIT


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## greyghost (Jun 11, 2004)

Good post Bait!


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

I disagree, bad post he kept using the word "HE". We are talking about Bitches here not studs


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Melanie Foster said:


> Stop trying to suck up, sweetness. I'm wearing head to toe camo and you won't see me until it's too late...


I love a sexy outfit....

/Paul


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## Matelite (Oct 9, 2007)

No feelings hurt here. Just trying to inject my views using my own experiences over 30 years in this game


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

golden boy 2 said:


> I disagree, bad post he kept using the word "HE". We are talking about Bitches here not studs


You're absolutely right! Ya got me, Mike. See that, y'all? Mikey's paying attention. 
But, in my defense, I was trying to get all that in at 5:00am, while trying to get out the door for work, and having 3 male dogs in the house, "He" just automatically comes out.......................Alright, no excuses.................I screwed up.

Mike, relax about the Dick Sampson Award. I got your back.
BAIT


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## golden boy 2 (Mar 28, 2005)

Bait, I am as cool and calm as Angie Becker putting a bark collar on a barking Lab.

Its all good my brutha........................see ya in Oklahoma...................


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Has anyone travelled elsewhere in the world to view working line Golden Retrievers? 

If so, how do they compare to those in the US. I know probable very silly question, as it is very rare to gauge a dog from puppy to mature dog. 

Nevertheless how do they compare regarding drive, marking ability and health?


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

*Melanie wrote: *


> What makes her spectacular?
> Does she have spectacular talent? Traits?
> Does she have a spectacular competition record?
> Does her pro think she is spectacular?
> ...




That's a great list to tack on the wall ... and refer back to more than once!

I do think that it can be worthwhile to list some of the bitches running/producing today who they believe to have many "yes" answers to these questions. It could prove useful to look at this thread after their offspring have grown up a bit. 

Wandering through k9data, I noticed that Bridget Carlsen now has a website (for all I know it's been there for a while & I just found it). (www.bridgetcarlsen.com).

I think her bitch, OTCH High Times Belvedere's Duck Soup UDX14 MH, QAA, AX, MXJ OD should be on a list of bitches who could be good producers. Bridget trains her own dogs and doesn't do as much with FTs as with HTs and obedience. Soupy had her MH and OTCH by the time she was two, and got QAA around 3 by winning a good-sized, all-breed trial. Her pedigree backs up her field achievements. She had her first litter when she was 4. Pups from her first litter mostly went to obedience folk and made her an Outstanding Dam. Her second, probably last (since she's 8), litter is due shortly.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> I do think that it can be worthwhile to list some of the bitches running/producing today who they believe to have many "yes" answers to these questions. It could prove useful to look at this thread after their offspring have grown up a bit.


Yep! That's a darn good start. It was the idea that started this thread.


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## duk4me (Feb 20, 2008)

golden boy 2 said:


> Bait, I am as cool and calm as Angie Becker putting a bark collar on a barking Lab.
> 
> Its all good my brutha........................see ya in Oklahoma...................


LOL You will catch hell for that one.

Tim


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

How about getting the puppies in the right homes?
How many "Well- bred"puppies go to pet/hunting homes instead of Performance homes?:???:
Sue


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Bait said:


> And, Like Bev said, finding the right homes is also hard. Won't get into the obvious reasons why the right home is important. Most of us know those.(I hope) But, for this discussion a big reason would also be so that the breedings are visible. If not for that, some of the inherent talent gets hidden, and therefore lost. Makes it very hard to do the forementioned homework.


That's right, Sue. That's definately one of the key factors (and most forgotten) in the equation.


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## weebegoldens (Jan 25, 2005)

Even the right homes that would campaign the dogs to the higher levels. As a judge I see ALOT of dogs that are REALLY nice at the JH/SH level and the owners will never go any further.


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## Klamath Hunting Gold (Nov 12, 2005)

ginger69 said:


> How about getting the puppies in the right homes?
> How many "Well- bred"puppies go to pet/hunting homes instead of Performance homes?:???:
> Sue


A very good golden trainer and handler recently told me that too often golden owner/handlers are too soft with their dogs. They are afraid to dig in and get the work done with the dog. 
Though I have not been at this for twenty years, I certainly have seen it often enough.

Hand


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## Goldenboy (Jun 16, 2004)

I've seen four Golden bitches that I really like over the past couple of years. The first two are not yet three years old. I judged Topbrass Southern Star (Belle) in a Derby which she won. I also judged Melanie Foster's Topbrass Jump Start Firemark (Jump) and was very impressed. I watched Medie Robinson's girl, Topbrass Smooth As Silk, win the Open at the Golden Specialty and was absolutely blown away. I tried very hard to sell Medie on breeding Silk to my boy, Blue, but she went with Judy Carter's dog, Red, a half-sibling instead.

And I also like Jennifer Adsit's LightFarm Highland SassyLass (Sassy) who has a couple of Field Trial accomplished siblings but who hasn't yet titled due to her owner's time constraints. She's very fast and bold.


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## Pals (Jul 29, 2008)

I have had the pleasure of being around Bridget's Soupy--what a nice bitch, in so many aspects. FYI--Soupy just had six puppies, all female.


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## ErinsEdge (Feb 14, 2003)

I judged Soupy in a derby-it might have been her first. Very impressive marker. It was Vikings last derby and the marks were meaty. Soupy took a 4th.


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## JusticeDog (Jul 3, 2003)

Pals said:


> I have had the pleasure of being around Bridget's Soupy--what a nice bitch, in so many aspects. FYI--Soupy just had six puppies, all female.


Now that's a golden bitch that should be bred to a substantial male...


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> *Melanie wrote: *
> 
> That's a great list to tack on the wall ... and refer back to more than once!
> 
> ...


Gerry.....have been watching updates on Bridget's site for a while....but, aside from all her wonderful accomplishment with many Golden Retrievers, did you check out the tricks that she taught "Hootie"? What a "hoot" LOL Very funny!!!!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Judy Chute said:


> Gerry.....have been watching updates on Bridget's site for a while....but, aside from all her wonderful accomplishment with many Golden Retrievers, did you check out the tricks that she taught "Hootie"? What a "hoot" LOL Very funny!!!!


The Cookie Jar Trick is a hoot! My dogs would eat the cookie & tear the jar apart!


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Aussie said:


> Has anyone travelled elsewhere in the world to view working line Golden Retrievers?
> 
> If so, how do they compare to those in the US. I know probable very silly question, as it is very rare to gauge a dog from puppy to mature dog.
> 
> Nevertheless how do they compare regarding drive, marking ability and health?


Sorry, Aussie, but no. I'm still working on seeing every nook and cranny of this country yet. Not sure when I'll get out of the country. I don't count Bermuda, cause there's no bird hunting there. But, I'm sure there's some one that gets on this forum that has some input for you. Kind of surprised no one has fielded your question yet. Was hoping someone would.


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## talingr (Feb 4, 2006)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> The Cookie Jar Trick is a hoot! My dogs would eat the cookie & tear the jar apart!


Oh no, I thought the fart trick was super funny! I understand how to break it down and teach it, but what idiot would you get to stand there and let a dog bump their butt like that? 

Linda


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bait said:


> Sorry, Aussie, but no. I'm still working on seeing every nook and cranny of this country yet. Not sure when I'll get out of the country. I don't count Bermuda, cause there's no bird hunting there. But, I'm sure there's some one that gets on this forum that has some input for you. Kind of surprised no one has fielded your question yet. Was hoping someone would.


You may not want to leave...

We may not let you back in...

Kathy and the dogs, OK, you?


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> You may not want to leave...
> 
> We may not let you back in...
> 
> Kathy and the dogs, OK, you?


That's the problem. When I go there to fix one thing, by the time I get there, they have a list nine miles long. Last time I went, I was supposed to be there a day or two. I was there more than a week. And had to bust my butt to get outta there then. They don't wanna hear that the crane can't unload the ships. The yuppies gotta have their stuff.


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## Doug Shade (Jan 10, 2006)

Satchabrat MH is a potential candidate. She is the same breeding as "Ranger". Qualified at the 2007 Master Nationals. She her on the cover of the latest issue of The Golden Retriever News. She was bred to "Stanley Steamer" last year and the puppies have been doing great. I'm looking at her and her mother right now and couldn't be prouder.


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

Bait said:


> That's the problem. When I go there to fix one thing, by the time I get there, they have a list nine miles long. Last time I went, I was supposed to be there a day or two. I was there more than a week. And had to bust my butt to get outta there then. They don't wanna hear that the crane can't unload the ships. The yuppies gotta have their stuff.


Sometimes it sucks being the best at what you do Bud.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Doug Shade said:


> Satchabrat MH is a potential candidate. She is the same breeding as "Ranger". Qualified at the 2007 Master Nationals. She her on the cover of the latest issue of The Golden Retriever News. She was bred to "Stanley Steamer" last year and the puppies have been doing great. I'm looking at her and her mother right now and couldn't be prouder.


That's a good picture, Doug. Also a good article you wrote in that issue. 

Bait


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

DarrinGreene said:


> Sometimes it sucks being the best at what you do Bud.


It's about the only thing I'm any good at anymore. And what's it get me? Deaf, beat up, and blind.(I was already dumb) Oh, yeah, and kidnapped. Whenever I go there, they always want me to stay indefinately. 
Hmmmm.........Darrin Greene............................Darrin Greene.........................I used to know a guy by that name............used to do some dog training with him.............................Wonder where he's been? 
But, nobody has any input for Aussie? That's a shocker. All these members, and nothing. 
Guess we'll have to make a trip "Down Under." How far of a drive IS that? I guess if we went by boat, we could take the truck on the boat with the dogs in the kennels on the truck.............................Hafta look into that. What's the bird hunting like down there? And what kind of critters you got down there that could eat me or my dogs?


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Bait said:


> Guess we'll have to make a trip "Down Under." How far of a drive IS that? I guess if we went by boat, we could take the truck on the boat with the dogs in the kennels on the truck.............................Hafta look into that. What's the bird hunting like down there? And what kind of critters you got down there that could eat me or my dogs?


Bait,

You are more than welcome to visit. Long flight, would not suggest a boat. Feel free to freight over your truck and kennels though. US vehicles big $$ here. We have the steering wheel etc on the other side also. 

My home state of Victoria has a duck season this year starting in about 3 weeks. Couple of problems though, bush fires still burning and visitors need to do a duck ID course and test, and then we have our gun license regulations. New Zealand might be a better choice. 

Exporting dogs to the US no problem, bringing 'em here, at least 6 month quarantine delay.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Aussie said:


> Bait,
> 
> You are more than welcome to visit. Long flight, would not suggest a boat. Feel free to freight over your truck and kennels though. US vehicles big $$ here. We have the steering wheel etc on the other side also.
> 
> ...


SIX MONTHS? WOW! Yeah, I'd say they have a few hoops for visitors to jump through.

You clear of those fires?

What kind of ducks you have mostly?


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Bait said:


> SIX MONTHS? WOW! Yeah, I'd say they have a few hoops for visitors to jump through.
> 
> You clear of those fires?
> 
> What kind of ducks you have mostly?


Clear, well.....put it this way. I was entered in this weekend's trial and it is Saturday. Husband came home in a mini panic Tuesday night as a small bushfire (400 acres) was about 20 miles away. His brothers rang suggesting we move LOVED items from the house. They suggested hunting trophies from BC and US and guns!!!!! Men LOL. 

I thought it was a panic over nothing. Nevertheless as it was another high fire danger day yesterday, trophies, guns and photos moved yesterday. 

Wood (geese), teal and black duck.

Our snakes, spiders and crocs (crocs up North) are impressive!!!


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

> bringing 'em here, at least 6 month quarantine delay.


Is that due to rabies, as it is for the UK?

Hey, sounds like Australia could be "the" market for all those cars GM can't sell here


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## Jim Pickering (Sep 17, 2004)

As all will note, I have done well to avoid posting on this thread, but it has lingered too long and my resolve has waned. I got all the way to page three before feeling the need to roll up my pant legs and slip on rubber knee boots.

Each individual has his/her standard for what makes a great retriever, Golden or other breed. Maybe because my path has crossed with Bait’s only at field trials I am incorrectly assuming that Bait was asking about field trial talent in Golden Retriever bitches. To that end I am not impressed until the bitch shows me something in an all breed, all age field trial stake. I defy anyone to consistently and accurately evaluate a dog’s potential to be trained to some level of performance. I have first hand experience with too many that looked like the real deal that crashed and burned in the face of the demands of training.

I realize that I am somewhat isolated here in the southeast which is not a hot spot for Golden Retrievers, but the only two bitches that comes to my mind are first Bev Burns’ Pixie, and Jeff Bandel’s Cali is worth watching to see if she holds up to the training.

However, I did see a 7 year old Golden Retriever bitch at the Lardy, Voigt, Burn & Voigt seminar that favorably impressed me. Her name is:
Tamsu’s Mis Daily CDX NM GMH HRCH UH and with a FT Open 3rd to her credit.
Daily can do some big dog work.
As best I can tell this is her http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=92440


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Jim Pickering said:


> Maybe because my path has crossed with Bait’s only at field trials I am incorrectly assuming that Bait was asking about field trial talent in Golden Retriever bitches.


Why are you saying "incorrectly assuming?" That IS actually what I was after. But, was welcoming any other input that anyone else had. You know, discussion. Was also anxiously awaiting your input, knowing that you've seen a lot of female Goldens produce good, bad, and indifferent. Like you said, there are those who look like the real thing but can't deal with the training. Then, there are those who nobody would've thought but, produced well. I guess if you can't watch each and every dog train, day in, and day out, through their coming of age, you can't truely and accurately evaluate their potential. Let alone their breeding potential. So, sometimes you just gotta roll the dice, I guess? Again, this is just discussion. Just looking for opinions, and 411 from those who have seen a lot.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Jim Pickering said:


> I realize that I am somewhat isolated here in the southeast which is not a hot spot for Golden Retrievers, but the only two bitches that comes to my mind are first Bev Burns’ Pixie, and Jeff Bandel’s Cali is worth watching to see if she holds up to the training.
> 
> However, I did see a 7 year old Golden Retriever bitch at the Lardy, Voigt, Burn & Voigt seminar that favorably impressed me. Her name is:
> Tamsu’s Mis Daily CDX NM GMH HRCH UH and with a FT Open 3rd to her credit.
> ...


BTW, Thanks for responding, Jim. That's the kind of input I was looking for.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

We may have all put a slightly different spin on Bait's question.

I would generally agree that Bait was looking for FT achievement. Today, with more and more people crossing between FT and HT venues, I wouldn't overlook a bitch with an MH and also QAA.

I interpreted Bait's inquiry for discussion of bitches who have proven their talent and who have produced it in their offspring, or who might be expected to produce talent in their offspring (if they have not yet reproduced). 

It might also include bitches who are deceased or now past their reproductive years, who proved their abiity & also produced successful offspring with the expectation that their daughters may follow in their footsteps. 

A number of people of various breeds have often said "follow the bitch line", so Bait's question could be a very good one. Since bitches don't get as much of a numerical opportunity to produce offspring as a male, those bitches who have produced several successful offspring do deserve to be called "The Pearl of Great Price".

Some bitches seem to produce talented offspring with different sires. Other bitches who might appear to be equal in individual performance and pedigree do not produce as well, even when bred to the same sires. Or did they, but the pups didn't get into the right homes? There are a lot of variables.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

If we really want to scratch our heads in disbelief, we might look at the fact that some bitches with no field achievements produced way beyond expectations.

The first one that comes to mind is Cotton's dam who had not even a WC, and produced two FCs ... Cotton and his sister, Mandy. 

Makes us wonder just how smart we really are, huh?


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Yep! Sometimes ya just gotta roll the dice. I'll bet we could find a few other instances of the same, if we looked hard enough. Or, if we get some really knowledgable people to respond. You, know, someone who has seen/knows a bunch of them.


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## Aussie (Jan 4, 2003)

Gerry Clinchy said:


> Is that due to rabies, as it is for the UK?
> 
> Hey, sounds like Australia could be "the" market for all those cars GM can't sell here



Gerry, 

Yes, rabies is the main problem.

The whole world's automobile industry has problems. Not sure personally bail outs are the answer. China, Korea, Japan can simply make em cheaper.


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

I found another interesting one.

Troymar Shasta Spring WCX dam of FC AFC Tangelo’s Side Kick OS FDHF

The background of her pedigree seems to offer only sparse “support” for field abiity

Pardner is the only offspring shown on k9data … so either it was a small litter or nobody wanted those pups from a bitch whom they didn't expect could produce FT-capable pups. 

However, the dam does have 3 siblings on k9data with FT achievements of some sort.

One of our statistically-oriented people wrote me that of 50 Golden FCs and/or AFCs produced from 1980 to date, 33 were from bitches who had MH*** or FC and/or AFC; and 17 were from bitches that had less than MH***. They used 1980 because hunt tests didn't exist before that (so if one wants to give some weight to a MH title, one has to start at that point when it was available).

Actually, I was a little surprised that as many as 1/3 came from lesser achieving bitches. I'm sure that these lesser achievers had some qualities that were desirable & may have had some titling, even if less than the criteria used. OTOH, working against those odds would be that such a breeding with a low-achieving dam, would probably attract fewer people with strong aspirations to FT competition.


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

"Statistically Oriented"? How many guesses do I get?


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## Diane Brunelle (Jun 11, 2004)

Bait said:


> "Statistically Oriented"? How many guesses do I get?


I have only one guess...the Queen of Stats herself.

Diane


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

1 bitch comes to mind that was never trialed. Hunted BUT never trialed was
Mioak's Golden Torch.
3 QAA out of "Mo" + Hunt Test titled get.
7 QAA out of "Zap". 1 FC, others with trial placements and Hunt Test titles.
1 QAA who had Open placements, 1 AFC. out of "Oly".
Sue


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## Jim Drager (Jun 12, 2005)

Bait, 

Great post 'ya started.

I am very suprised that no one raised what I feel are two very important reasons that the lense we use to judge the "quality" of a bitch may be seriously flawed. The lense I mean is of using "accomplishments"---titles, and such as a judge of the quality of the bitch as a producer.

Here's my arguments against it.

1) Bitchs are affected by fluctuating hormone levels that directly impact and vary their behavoiur, and therefore, their performance in training and trials/tests. The variation can be so severe that some "great bitchs" never do squat because of their inability to cope with the affects of hormones.

As a mini case study, a vet friend of mine used to pull blood work from a training partners lab when she "acted funny" and documented very high hormonal levels from baseline. She was darn near untrainable/runnable during those times. She had small windows of when she was able to show her stuff (she was a very good dog from good FT bloodlines). 

2) Bitchs run the pack. (no suprises here). In pack mentality, the Alpha female runs the pack. Because of this behavior, some alpha bitchs never understand why you have the right to tell them to do anything. Oh, they may even be well trained and even like the task at hand...but what gives you the right to tell them? They run the pack.

So, when you add these two variables on top of all of the other variables--pedigree, talent, training, etc...you should find that bitchs of equal quality to males will NOT have the same success on the circuit.

As some level of evidence, look at derby. Shouldn't we expect close to 50% of the dogs who are successful (place or Jam) to be bitchs? After all, they have NOT been bred at that point.

But we don't. You'll see that at Derby about 25% are bitchs. And, it gets worse from there..the higher you go, the worse the bitchs do statistically.

My opinion (and that is all it is...so you can agree or disagree, but it still is just an opinion) is that bitchs...as smart as they are...as talented as males, will NOT do as well in competitions overall, YET be of the same potential quality as males. This is due to my reasons above.

This is in no way to take away from accomplished bitchs...they certainly have proven themselves in battle, but that's not my point.

So, if your lense is "results based only" you will missing many high quality bitchs. 

Jim


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Jim's post was really good in many ways. He's had plenty of reason to figure out why his own bitch keeps thumbing her nose at him 

It seems that in both Labs and Goldens, fewer people are willing to train their bitches because of the heat seasons and taking time out for litters. In truth, since the bitch can have lesser numerical impact on the breed and it's a PITA to work around the maternity breaks, if one has limited time (or $) to spend on training, it makes some sense to spend the assets on the boys.

"Send in entry fees ... $150
"Drive 200 miles to a trial ... $50
"Lodging and food for a weekend ... $200
"Your bitch comes in season on Saturday morning ... priceless"


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Bait said:


> It's kind of hard to do, just hearing names. Other than, the fact that you can look at their pedigrees and see what ones had parents (and grandparents) who not nesecarily have all the titles one would want, but those who produced well. Anybody has anything to add or edit, add or edit away. That's what we're here for.
> BAIT


On page 6, I mentioned it. Had already gotten long-winded enough on that post. Was hoping someone, like yourself, would step up and elaborate on it. Thanks. 'Nother good post. 'preciate it. 
BTW, Missed you on Canine Hill road. But, did see the kilt pics in the GRNews. Seems like the write-up was kinda tamed down from how the thing went down. Good write-up though. Tastefully done. There were enough clues in there; "arm-twisting", "Carefully (not), Quietly (NOT)"........ to remind us of the party,oops, "Handlers meeting" that was brought to order (or disorder) That made certain individuals come out of the restaurant, into the bar,oops, "meeting room", to see what the commotion, oops, "meeting" was about.


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## Jim Drager (Jun 12, 2005)

Hey Bait,

I went back and looked up your post on page 6. You are right on target.

We sure did have fun in CT! That was a great handlers meeting! I was insulted by Sylvia for taking shots at my white socks and boots! I thought it was a great look. (like I had a choice having to change into the outfit with like 3 minutes to get to the line!)

Miss ya buddy.

Jim


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

Great post, Jim... On the other hand, there are some bitches that are at their very best when training while in heat cycle. One FC AFC that I know could not be sharper...

It is interesting. 

Judy


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## Bait (Jan 21, 2004)

Jim Drager said:


> Hey Bait,
> 
> I went back and looked up your post on page 6. You are right on target.
> 
> ...


I was really amazed the kilt got there in time. somebody must've broken the speed limit a time or two, going to Rhode Island and back. 
Also amazed that no pictures have surfaced of the "Meeting". Oh, Megan?


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## Juli H (Aug 27, 2007)

Jim, 

a very good post....

I am a chessie person, and so follow the chessie ft dogs....Interestingly we've had quite a few very accomplished chessie bitches, right now we have only one living DC, a bitch.... in fact right now I'd say the current number of successful all-age bitches is probably about equal the number of successful all-age dogs (in chessies)....but I'd have to look at the records and see for sure....

Juli


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## Gerry Clinchy (Aug 7, 2007)

Hillview's Ready To Smoke (Eli's dam) is also untitled. k9data shows no siblings for her. We don't know whether this means that she was from a small litter or none of the other sibs went to working homes, or maybe didn't pass their health screenings? She certainly did have a pedigree http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=15223 that was strong on field talent (although her dam was also untitled)

Charles Jones on his site www.undeniablegoldens.com has several statistical evaluations of producers among Golden Retrievers. However, in is category of "Top Producing Dams Without Major AKC Titles" most of the names that show up are in obedience or conformation. I noticed only Mioaks Golden Torch and Eli's dam as field-oriented dams.

*How about Emberain All Buttered Up?* Sound familiar? 
Butter only has a JH and WC in field (although she has a CDX and high-level agility titles). Her siblings:
_Emberain Sunkist Miss, UD, MH, WCX_ - Female - no offspring on k9data
_Emberain Jelly's First Jam, UDT, JH, MX, MXJ, WCX_ - Male -
produced 5 MHs, one MH***, one MH & Can MH ***
_Emberain Hunthill Jellyroll SH, WCX - _Female - produced one MH

The mating that produced Butter was done twice, 1994 & 1995. Butter came from the 1995 breeding. A total of 15 puppies from both breedings, and only one of them had an MH, one an SH, 3 JHs (including Butter).

Butter's offspring: (per k9data)
Bred 4 X to Bro (30 pups); 1X to Kirby (10 pups), 1X to Boomer (only 2 pups on k9data)
In addition to the 3 AFCs (one is FC/AFC), she also produced
4 - MH *** 1 MH 1 SH *** 2 *** 2 ** and 4 SH
(could be off, I was getting kind of cross-eyed counting the titles & not including the agility titles and obedience titles)
3 AFCs, one FC/AFC, 1 MH **,


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## TexGold (Jan 27, 2009)

It looks like this thread may be near the end of its life, but I came on board late. Acknowledging that I have some personal prejudice, here is another bitch to consider, if they breed her again: Topbrass Megawatt, MH (http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=114396) 

She is out of Emberain Rugby. I have one of her pups with TNT's Explosion (Boomer). I don't think her owners have maintained interest in breeding or campaigning her, but I am told she got her MH in straight passes.

Perhaps some gentle nudging from Jackie or others might get her back in the game at least as far as breeding. However, it was my understanding that they were keeping two or three dogs out of the litter that mine was from and only one of the siblings is listed on k9data.

I couldn't be happier with my dog. He would be farther along if he had a better trainer!


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## JS (Oct 27, 2003)

TexGold said:


> It looks like this thread may be near the end of its life, but I came on board late. Acknowledging that I have some personal prejudice, here is another bitch to consider, if they breed her again: Topbrass Megawatt, MH (http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=114396)
> 
> She is out of Emberain Rugby. I have one of her pups with TNT's Explosion (Boomer). I don't think her owners have maintained interest in breeding or campaigning her, but I am told she got her MH in straight passes.
> 
> ...


I know Meg very well. She is a littermate to Silk, the mother of my youngest. She was a strong influence in me going with a Silk puppy and I have been pleased so far.

I have trained with Meg a lot, as well as with several of the puppies you refer to (x Boomer). The four I have seen are very nice. It is simply a matter of interest ... they are in hunt test homes with basically no interest in FTs. That, and the fact none of them have had any winter opportunities.

But, yes, Meg had the potential and I have seen it in her puppies despite no FT accolades. And you are correct; her MH work "she could do with her eyes closed!"

JS


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

Jim D. wrote: "2) Bitchs run the pack. (no suprises here). In pack mentality, the Alpha female runs the pack. Because of this behavior, some alpha bitchs never understand why you have the right to tell them to do anything. Oh, they may even be well trained and even like the task at hand...but what gives you the right to tell them? They run the pack."

How true! My old girl Emberain Lady Nell*** figured she could do just about anything without me except get to the trial, so she graciously allowed me to drive her. She was an excellent marker and water dog and she was a natural selector, but never ever would she allow us to be a team because I was "her pack". She also ran beautifully just before she came into estrous. I remember once she got an Open 4th and the pro said she came in while in the holding blind!! He was next to the last to run, so he ran her and she finished! 

Gerry Clinchy wrote: "I found another interesting one.

Troymar Shasta Spring WCX dam of FC AFC Tangelo’s Side Kick OS FDHF

The background of her pedigree seems to offer only sparse “support” for field abiity

I occasionally saw Shasta, but I was far more familiar with her sister, Molly** owned by Stan and Annabelle Dowling. Molly often tried to 'run' Stan at trials and since he was pretty elderly at that time, she won most of the time. The field ability the bitches had really came from Montclair Tawny Edison CD, WCX. She was a wild when it came to birds. The day she got her WCX I saw her pull a metal tie down out of the ground and take off after a duck that had been thrown--somebody managed to catch her just as she went into the water. Her owner had no clue as to what she owned and didn't know how to control her--what a fantastic bitch. The sire of Shasta and Molly was no slouch either. Bainin*** was a heavy duty, very birdy dog. Many of the dogs in Pardner's pedigree were used for hunting.

'Kicker', Pardner's sire was a big red dog that I adored. He was a super marker, but oh goodness, those blinds! Bill had a dickens of a time with Kicker and blinds. 

He used to tell a great story about Kicker. During duck season, Bill and Terry would take the dogs to the duck club. Kicker was older and retired, so he stayed in the house and Bill would take Pardner out. One morning when it was terribly foggy, Bill and Pardner went out to their blind and pretty soon a voice came out of the fog telling Bill that his white faced dog must have gotten lost in the fog and was in their blind. Bill said no, Pardner was right there. There was a little pause and Bill hollered, Kicker!! Get over here! Kicker had managed to sneak out of the house, went down the flight of steps, found a couple of guys in a blind that didn't have a dog with them and figured he'd help them out. 
He was such a great boy I bred Nell to him and they produced a QAA dog that was an outstanding retriever.  
Suzanne B


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## Paula Richard (Jun 18, 2004)

Suzanne Burr said:


> Jim D. wrote: "2) Bitchs run the pack. (no suprises here). In pack mentality, the Alpha female runs the pack. Because of this behavior, some alpha bitchs never understand why you have the right to tell them to do anything. Oh, they may even be well trained and even like the task at hand...but what gives you the right to tell them? They run the pack."
> 
> How true! My old girl Emberain Lady Nell*** figured she could do just about anything without me except get to the trial, so she graciously allowed me to drive her. She was an excellent marker and water dog and she was a natural selector, but never ever would she allow us to be a team because I was "her pack". She also ran beautifully just before she came into estrous. I remember once she got an Open 4th and the pro said she came in while in the holding blind!! He was next to the last to run, so he ran her and she finished!
> 
> ...


Suzanne:

Thanks for those great stories of the old timers. They never grow old when it comes to wanting to retrieving those birds. ;-)

Paula


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Think that's why we call um "Bitches" hey?;-)
My "Ginger" ("Zeke's" sister) was the same. Awesome marker ,great landblinds, super water marks. She hated it when I had to tell her to get off points or go by them
Love your stories Suzanne!!!!!!!!
Good from a person that lived in a different part of the US to tell stories of the Goldens on that coast.
Thanks!!
Sue


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

There's another wonderful post by Suzanne... Anytime you feel like posting this stuff, please do!!

Pom poms Away, Bandana's Up  

Judy


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## tmt (Mar 14, 2009)

I have really enjoyed all the stories and information both in this thread and the Golden Studs thread. In the past we have always had Labs, but I got my first little Golden girl last year. It has been great to learn more about some of the dogs in her linage, as well as other good dogs that I didn't know about. Thanks to everyone for their contributions!


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## talingr (Feb 4, 2006)

Suzanne, 
I always love your stories. Keep them coming!!!!

Linda


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## Judy Chute (May 9, 2005)

tmt said:


> I have really enjoyed all the stories and information both in this thread and the Golden Studs thread. In the past we have always had Labs, but I got my first little Golden girl last year. It has been great to learn more about some of the dogs in her linage, as well as other good dogs that I didn't know about. Thanks to everyone for their contributions!


..and looks like (Avatar) you made a very nice choice!! 

Enjoy!!

Judy


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## Creek Retrievers (Jul 1, 2005)

Awesome stories Suzanne!


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## tmt (Mar 14, 2009)

Judy Chute said:


> ..and looks like (Avatar) you made a very nice choice!!
> 
> Enjoy!!
> 
> Judy



Thanks Judy! I was so impressed with Rugby's offspring both in the Field Trials and Hunt Tests that I knew I had to have one. My girl "Fergie" is hard charging and so far has been a lot of fun to work with. And of course, I think she is adorable, too! ;-) - Tiff


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

Thanks everyone. I'm about as old as dirt and have seen lots and lots of goldens and for whatever reason I remember things about them--you know how those labs all look alike. There's no way you tell one from the other.....

Suzanne B


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## Howard N (Jan 3, 2003)

> you know how those labs all look alike. There's no way you tell one from the other.....


Yes you can!! 

Mine are the cute ones.


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## Suzanne Burr (Jul 13, 2004)

Howard! What are you doing lurking around a fluffy thread? 

I once owned a lab (or 3) and I can prove that they all look alike and you can verify it by asking long time trialer/judge Jack Lawry about it, too! 

Once upon a time many years ago Tom Lawry came to our home with a little black lab puppy and said it was for our daughter, Becky. He thought she needed her own dog that didn't look like all the goldens that were hanging around our house. She was thrilled, we weren't, but our thoughts didn't make much difference so the next day I went over and picked out a puppy. Becky named her "Blackberry" and played ball with her, took her to friends houses, fed her ice cream, and let her sleep in her room on the bed. When Becky went to school I either took "Berry" training with me or I did her obedience and field basics. Becky didn't like her doing "dog work", but her dad convinced her it was good for her to have a job. Well, a year went by and Becky had lots of other things to do by then and for Christmas she gave me "Berry" as a gift. I put her on Tom's truck a few days after Christmas and went training with the group a few days later. I'd never had a dog on a pro's truck before and when I was told to get my dog, I went to her box and ran the first set up and she did very nicely. I put her back in the open box and waited my next turn. Pretty soon I was told to go get my dog and so I went over to where I thought I'd put her and got her out. I tried to run her, but now she'd couldn't mark, heck, she'd barely leave the line without my calling her name two or three times!! I had to walk through the sludge and mudholes to get her and drag her over to where the bird was. I repeated the mark 3 times and finally she did it, but it was pretty darn ugly. I headed back to the truck totally exasperated and muttering to myself about these supposedly high rolling black dogs. As I got there, Jack came around from the other side and said, "Thanks for running my dog Stretch." (yes, that's my nickname and I don't want any comments from anyone over 5' 1", thank you!). I answered back, "Yeh, sure Jack, very funny--ha ha!" He said, "No, really, thanks." I started to really give him an earful when he said, "Check the plumbing, Stretch." I just stood there for a second then looked underneath my dog and darn if there weren't parts on her that hadn't been there the last time I'd checked! I'd run Jack's "Pal" instead of Berry!! Both dogs had about 8 little white hairs above their left eyebrow and when I'd opened what I thought was Berry's box, those are what I'd looked for because there were no names on the boxes and that's the only way I could tell my pup from any of the other labs. I might have lived it down eventually, but I did the same #[email protected]# thing a few weeks later! After that I always checked her undercarriage before going to the line. 

And Howard, just so you know I had a classy bred lab, mom was a Twiggy's Holiday Express x Dude's Dbl. or Nothin' pup bred to a Rascal son. I ran Berry in her first Derby in Los Banos about 3 weeks after that fiasco and took 2nd. She went on to make the Derby list, won the Nevada Derby title, won their Calcutta, and became QAA'd before age 3. Jack's dog became an AFC (thankfully, I didn't do him any permanent harm by calling him by a girls name). Unfortunately I lost Berry to a botched foxtail surgery a little after her 3rd birthday. To this day, I still miss her. 

Somewhere I have a picture of 4 of the pups from the litter and I swear there's no way you can tell one from the other---well, except for those little white hairs and of course, the plumbing.

Suzanne B


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## GoldDog (Feb 10, 2009)

What a great story. I understand completely.;-)


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## Sue Kiefer (Mar 4, 2006)

Way too funny. 
Sue


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