# Mike Lardy vs Evan Graham dvd's



## rardijoh (Jan 12, 2009)

Okay my trainer told me to get the Mike Lardy DVD's and books. 

So I start searching for more info and get that he is hard to understand for the new guy and I should get Evan Graham. He has more detail in his videos.

My dogs are all already FF, and have all basic commands down, One was trained to steady to flush and the other not, so I am working on that as we speak and re inforcing the commands 3 times a week.

Will be ready to move on once the weather gets warmer and want to buy the DVD so I have about a month to prepare

Thoughts


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

If your dogs have been trained using Lardy's methods, I would continue using the same program.


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## mjh345 (Jun 17, 2006)

You would be better served to join a retriever club, or work with a pro, or somehow find a mentor who knows what theuy are doing to guide you. Training is a hands on discipline.

If you want a DVD, I would look at the accomplishments of the trainer.
There is absolutely no comparison between Lardy's results and Grahams.
Lardy has trained scores of Champions, including more National Champions than anyone in history. Whereas Graham has never titled a dog. I believe he has only a 4th place finish in his entire career.

I don't think DVD's are much use, except maybe Lardy's CC Video. However for a beginner, I think that Lardy's collection of RJ articles Volume 1 is PURE GOLD


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## Kenneth Niles Bora (Jul 1, 2004)

my dogs very much enjoy my Mike Lardy videos and I am sure yours will as well
LARDY ROCKS!!!


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Who has trained more FC/AFC's.......LARDY!

Some people write some people train....


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Oooops, Lardy writes (articles which are awesome) and he trains.....FC/AFC's.

Seriously though if your dog was trained with Lardy's meathods then I would get his DVD's and his articles from Retriever Journal.


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## Snicklefritz (Oct 17, 2007)

Who's _training videos_ have produced more FC/AFC, JH,SH,MH,SR,HR, HRCH, GHRCH(?).

The question is about training videos, not about trainers. The best trainer in the world can produce the worst videos. The point of a video is to communicate information to the viewer. Given the same information, some videos communicate that information better than others.

It doesn't matter what Mike Lardy, or Evan Graham have done themselves, as much as it matters what thier videos enable you to do. Of course, if you can get either to train your dog for you, or train you to train your dog, it would be better than any video 

Me thinks!

Snick


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

There is only so much a person can learn from DVD's. Spend more time with your trainer.

/Paul


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## Chris Miller (Dec 16, 2005)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> There is only so much a person can learn from DVD's. Spend more time with your trainer.
> 
> /Paul


Why when you can pay to talk to one on the phone?
http://www.rushcreekpress.com/page5ourservicespage.html


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## BlackDog1337 (Jan 22, 2009)

WTF lol he better talk really fast lol.


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## copterdoc (Mar 26, 2006)

I tried training my first dog with a book, but he got frustrated because he couldn't turn the pages.

I put in a Lardy video and that was better, but since dogs aren't able to focus on a two dimensional image, he couldn't pick up on a lot of the material.


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

For a beginner the smartworks series is a better buy, Evan goes into much greater detail and breaks things down a bit more. Lardy's tape are excellent as well just more geared to someone already schooled in the game. Buy 'em both and start a library, the more info the better.


As to some of the other comments, Tiger Woods has won countless titles/tournaments and Butch Harmon has won none that I am aware of, who is the better golf INSTRUCTOR? 

Pay no attention to the haters and fanboys.


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## Nate_C (Dec 14, 2008)

What about lardy's seminar. I was thinking about going to his basic seminar but I am pretty new to the retriever arena and a complete novice in retriever trials. Worth it our should I wait.


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## DSemple (Feb 16, 2008)

IOWABAYDOG said it well.

I like both sets of DVD's. If your at the 5th grade level you want a fifth grade teacher. If your at the college level you want the college professor.

....Don


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

Lardy does an awesome job of explaining in-great-detail many of the processes of his program with his journals. Vol. 1-3. Buy them it is the best money I've spent. I have the DVD's as well and the CC video is very well done and the others will compliment the journals. 

BUY THE JOURNALS!


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Nate_C said:


> What about lardy's seminar. I was thinking about going to his basic seminar but I am pretty new to the retriever arena and a complete novice in retriever trials. Worth it our should I wait.


If you have an opportunity to attend one of Mike's seminars, by all means go. And take a large note pad. Ask the questions that are important to _you_. 

He's a great guy, and a first rate dog man. You will always be glad you went.

Evan


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## shreek (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't know either of them, but I bet if you post any questions on this site Lardy won't answer them. The best baseball players don't always make the best coaches.


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## Goosehunterdog (Jul 3, 2006)

Maverick said:


> Why when you can pay to talk to one on the phone?
> http://www.rushcreekpress.com/page5ourservicespage.html


Mike Lardy without a question!!!!!! For 5 hours of talking on the phone you could have a month of "REAL PRO TRAINING"!!!! If the Smartwork program is "So detailed" why the need to pay $100 an hour....

Mike Lardy doesn't have time to post etc. because he is to busy training dogs!!!!!


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## David11 (Jan 27, 2009)

Check the classifieds, just posted most of what you are looking for.


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## YardleyLabs (Dec 22, 2006)

I am a training neophyte. I bought the Lardy tapes as my first introduction to training and watched several times. Much of what was shown meant nothing to me. I bought the SmartWorks books and DVDs and finally began to grasp what was going on. I bought the FowlDog DVD's and began to understand some aspects better. Once I reached a basic level of understanding, I had the good sense to send my most promising pup to a pro who let me come down to train with him every week with my other dogs. I learned a huge amount from him and eventually began to get a better understanding of the Lardy tapes which I have watched several more times. My recomendation is to get them all, and then find a pro you can work with as well. After all, it's only money, and your kids will appreciate their education better if they have to pay for it themselves.;-)


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## Goosehunterdog (Jul 3, 2006)

YardleyLabs said:


> I am a training neophyte. I bought the Lardy tapes as my first introduction to training and watched several times. Much of what was shown meant nothing to me. I bought the SmartWorks books and DVDs and finally began to grasp what was going on. I bought the FowlDog DVD's and began to understand some aspects better. Once I reached a basic level of understanding, I had the good sense to send my most promising pup to a pro who let me come down to train with him every week with my other dogs. I learned a huge amount from him and eventually began to get a better understanding of the Lardy tapes which I have watched several more times. My recomendation is to get them all, and then find a pro you can work with as well. After all, it's only money, and your kids will appreciate their education better if they have to pay for it themselves.;-)



The Fowldawgs Series is were it is at for the money.........I LOVE Lardy's program though especially his manual Vol.1


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Man theres' some rudes soms a butches out there!

You can learn from any of them. If your just learning then someone who teaches at your level is best.
You can't teach calculist to someone who hasn't finished math yet.
How many coaches were superstars,,,,hell many of them never played in the big leage.
Training people is way harder than training dogs,,,it takes a special nack to understand where people are at and how they recieve information.

Seminars,training groups,clubs are some great resourses.
Learning how to train/and handle dogs is a life time journey.
The more you learn the more whats written in any of the material will make sense.
They are all good

Pete


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Thank you....Pete. I agree with everything you said.


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Jim
I think thats the first time any one has

Pete


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## DoubleHaul (Jul 22, 2008)

I am a Lardy fanboy. I have all his materials and have been to several seminars both as a handler and an observer.

As others mentioned, you will get more out of working with your pro or a good group, but sticking to the DVDs, I still think there are some real advantages to Evan's. Even if you are not strictly working through his program, the DVDs are quite detailed and clear. They will give you good background no matter which program you are using since the steps are all very similar. Plus, if you have a question, you might get it answered here.

I have picked up good info from all the stuff I have--it all adds color to whatever you are doing. I don't argue changing the program your pro has started, but Evan's stuff can help even if you are not following it from beginning to end.


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## afdahl (Jul 5, 2004)

This post pertains only to Mike Lardy.

While there is precedent for some of the best teachers to be individuals who didn't excel at the sport or activity they teach, that does NOT apply to Mike. Years ago Mike articulated some of the things that we all knew but struggled to explain to customers and other novices. This improved my communication with customers and training students, and benefited people who never viewed Mike's tapes and articles.

I also saw a huge jump in the success rate of self-taught beginners following release of the Total Retriever Training series. People who didn't necessarily have the time for clubs and training groups were training their own dogs to Master Hunter, Derby and Qual places, and beyond with the aid of the tapes. Style has improved as people's use of the ecollar has become more effective.

I am not paid to promote Mike, and I don't think ANYONE'S training materials should be taken as gospel. It is important to learn from the dogs and to develop one's own judgment. But it would be a mistake to say that because Mike is a top competitor, he is necessarily not an outstanding teacher.

Amy Dahl


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## Goosehunterdog (Jul 3, 2006)

Well said Amy!!!!

I think that a new trainer should do as much homework as possible and decide for themselves dpending on what level of training etc.. that they want to go...I personally like to recommend a "Basic Detailed" program for the beginner such as my all time favorite book The 10 Minute Retriever or Fowldawgs DVD series that I feel were well done enough to belong in every trainers library...These "Advanced" programs Lardy & Smartwork series can overwhelm a new trainer.....

I think Mike Lardy is an outstanding trainer with an outstanding advanced training program...I think that the $martwork Series started in the right direction but has ended up being a never ending story that will have so many DVD's that it discourages the new trainer to have to continue to buy so many and now Evan is offering $100 an hour pay by phone to get a guy out of a tangle (if they want to pay fine)..Just my 2 cents but if I had to choose between the two it would be The Mike Lardy Program...


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## Buzz (Apr 27, 2005)

rardijoh said:


> Okay my trainer told me to get the Mike Lardy DVD's and books.
> 
> So I start searching for more info and get that he is hard to understand for the new guy and I should get Evan Graham. He has more detail in his videos.
> 
> ...


I have both. I have not seen much of the Graham stuff on DVD. I think both programs are good but somewhat different.

You are not well served by the Lardy DVD's unless you buy the books too. The Retriever Journal Articles are the BEST.

I find that Graham's books have more in the way of field set-ups and a bigger variety of drills. Lardy seems to go more into detail on the yard drills that he does, explains what the goal of each is, and solutions to the common pitfalls you'd encounter getting through them.

If your trainer trained one way, you would be best to learn exactly what your dog has been taught, and what the progression is.

Either that, or get a different trainer...


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## IowaBayDog (May 17, 2006)

afdahl said:


> But it would be a mistake to say that because Mike is a top competitor, he is necessarily not an outstanding teacher.
> 
> Amy Dahl


 
No one said that,it was more that because Evan didn't handle X # of NFCs doesn't mean he not an outstanding teacher. Both statements are equally correct.

I have most of the books with your name on them too and they are also very good


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Amy
Sorry I communicated the wrong message to you.
Its obvious Mike Lardy can train and teach dogs and yes he is among the best.
What I was saying is others have done a really good job also putting material together and lots of people benefited greatly from it and were able to develop that artsy part of dog training with effort applied

I recommend wolters for first timers. My first master dog was trained initial from his book and all I did was develope an art for what he was teaching and then moved up from there. Its as basic 101 as you can get. but it was the right choice
at the right time.

Pete


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Goosehunterdog said:


> These "Advanced" programs Lardy & Smartwork series can overwhelm a new trainer.....
> 
> ...now Evan is offering $100 an hour pay by phone to get a guy out of a tangle (if they want to pay fine)..Just my 2 cents but if I had to choose between the two it would be The Mike Lardy Program...


What a mindless stretch. There are simply no legs to support that assessment.

The amount of detail offered makes in easier for a beginner to assimilate and use. But the notion that our consultation services are offered for the purpose of untangling misunderstandings of the system has no connection with reality. It only exists to provide insight into problems or questions trainers have that no standardized system can or would be expected to sort through, such is the quirks of individual dogs that a trainer is having trouble relating to, or sorting out.

Certain mouth problems, or a dog that chronically spins are just two examples. These are not routine conditions, and each dog may be showing reads that their owners are having trouble relating to.

No consultation has been conducted to solve a trainer's inability to understand or use the method.

Evan


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

I don't think we need to tear a persons stuff down to show how wonderful another trainers program is. 

It wouldn't matter if another trainer came out with a new manual or DVD next week. Lardy's journals will still be great. I can not over emphasize how much they have helped me along the way. Allowing me to ask the right question(s) to my training partners/mentors. Helping me understand the answers my training partners/mentors/DVD's have given me.


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## Sabireley (Feb 2, 2005)

Nate_C said:


> What about lardy's seminar. I was thinking about going to his basic seminar but I am pretty new to the retriever arena and a complete novice in retriever trials. Worth it our should I wait.


Go if you can afford it. It is worth every penny. Go as handler if you can, but being an observer should be fine also. Get the Total Retrieve Training video and the 3 binders of articles so you understand the training flow and jargon. I have been to the basics and advanced seminars.

Mike has the gift of being a good teacher and communicator. He can keep a group's undivided attention for the entire time. 
Steve


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## DarrinGreene (Feb 8, 2007)

I am a novice trainer.

I have both sets of materials in print.

I have read both numerous times. 

I also have Dahl, Wolters and others. I even have some dog Psych books not related to retrievers at all.

I personally find Evan's stuff more straight forward than Mike's. But wouldn't be without either one of them at this point.

As for what program to use with your dog I found that it makes the most sense to align with your mentors and or training group. If you're doing one thing and they do something else your training tends to get conveluted (sp?).

The printed stuff and DVD's are just reference materials to help you understand what (hopefully0 you're getting from your training group. That said, I don't think one is better than the other and I don't think one is the end all be all either. 

I would recommend laying your hands on both as an investment in your dog's future.


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## Jim Danis (Aug 15, 2008)

I'm also a novice trainer and have found it to be very beneficial to read and view as much material as possible from many different sources. I started out with my pup using Wolters as a basic guide for the very early stages, 8wks to 4-5 months. I've read Evan's Smartworks books, viewed the FowlDogs videos and Danny Farmers video's. I've also read The 10 Minute Retriever and I read Lardy's articles in the Retriever Journal. I use them all to help me understand different concepts and terms. I would think that if you can soak up and understand what you are reading and viewing that will only help your dog


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## John Kelder (Mar 10, 2006)

I spent an hour with Mike while his group was in NY training for the National in Vt. .Just listening to him work with the handlers and setting up the marks was very informative . He is a teacher , as every detail was explained .
And when I moved to KC , Evan offered to let me train with him ,and while we haven't hooked up yet , he too ,seemed the teacher , even on the phone .
Two men who have left their mark on the game in one way or another . For the better .


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## Mike Peters-labguy23 (Feb 9, 2003)

You can have a Private day training with Rorem for $250, seems like a great deal if you have issues or want to learn. So $100 an hour for a phone call seems a little high.


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## SoccaRunna29 (Jan 15, 2009)

Its hard to read and watch people tear apart different approaches and techniques. To each his own and good on the person who can take what he can from each method and develop what works best for him and his dog. There are so many different ways to do things and as a beginner myself, I would just assume be a sponge and take in anything that is offered to me so as to approach training my pup in the best fashion that I can. Become a "Student of your sport" and as I see Hunt tests and trialing as a sport like atmosphere, learn all that you can about it and take what you can from anyone willing to share their information, and then respect them for leaving themselves vulnerable to criticism! Just my thoughts, and I'm sure I am setting myself up for some criticism also !!

Have fun with your Pup.

Jordan


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Pete said:


> I recommend wolters for first timers. My first master dog was trained initial from his book and all I did was develope an art for what he was teaching and then moved up from there. Its as basic 101 as you can get. but it was the right choice at the right time.


I attempted to train my first dog using Wolters' books. I would not recommend that to anyone. I haven't seen the dvd's, but I understand they are not as archaic.


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

HuntinDawg said:


> I attempted to train my first dog using Wolters' books. I would not recommend that to anyone.


My favorite is sending on a double whisle.


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

sheriff said:


> My favorite is sending on a double whisle.


I've got a hunting buddy who trained his dog (now deceased) using the Wolter's stuff. When he buys his next puppy I think I'm going to give him the first Smartwork book and beg him not to use the Wolters stuff.

Back to the subject of the thread, I think that both Evan's and Mike's written work (Smartworks books and Lardy's RJ article compilations) are more valuable than their dvd's, especially for a relatively inexperienced retriever trainer. I have all of Mike's dvds and if I could only keep one of them it would be the collar conditioning one. I probably have 3 of Evan's dvd's.

I would recommend that the newbie spend his money on the written material as there is more bang for the buck there IMO. Then I would use the dvd's to help with things that are just hard to understand without seeing it like maybe Evan's FF (haven't seen it), Lardy's CC (EXCELLENT) and Evan's Swim By (very good IMO). Both systems use a flow chart which is essential. If you compare the flow charts they aren't terribly different.

When I was training my current dog up through basics, I would read what both Lardy and Evan had to say about the particular step I was about to start. If there was a difference in the methodology (usually not a lot, but because the descriptions were written by two different people I felt that I got a better understanding by reading both) then I had to decide which one I was going to go with. Again, the difference was not huge. I think Evan communicates better in written word when the reader knows little or nothing of the subject.

I have attended a Graham workshop/seminar and I enjoyed it very much and I definitely learned some things. I would very much like to attend a Lardy seminar, but have not done so. Maybe when I'm training my next dog...


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## Poodlegirl (Dec 19, 2007)

I got the Lardy materials after training with Kristie Wilder. I really like them and use them even though I train daily with another pro locally. I am not sure that they would have been as helpful if I hadn't had some experience under my belt ~ but I could have used this list to figure some of it out I am sure.

Also, unlike others, I see Evan's charging 100 dollars for a phone call as added service. Seems to me it would come in handy if you can't train with a pro locally. Sure, some folks will talk for nothing. And nothing is what you get. If you give information for free - most often you get a number of calls from people who want to ask you questions - then tell you why you are wrong and why what they do is fine but just not working! I know this because I am a consultant. People will gab on and on without focus unless I charge them (I own a marketing/communications/hr consulting service). Suddenly clients get more efficient with my and their time and focus in on what they really need when they are paying.

Good luck and have fun. That is what is important. 

Claudia


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## Alex (Jan 22, 2008)

I own and have reviewed both of these programs

IMHO there is no comparison between the 2 programs

Lardy is a legendary trainer & a teacher

Graham is an internet wannabe and a salesman

There programs are reflective of these characteristics.

As others have mentioned Lardy's Articles collection especially Volume 1 are outstanding. They are clear, concise, focused and accurate. They are useful regardless of whether your goals are gundog, Hunt Tests or Field Trials 

In addition they point out how to set things up, and what to anticipate. They tell you what possible problems may come up and how to handle them. Better still he tells how to avoid them. That is the hallmark of what a good tutorial should do.
In addition, his program proofs itself so you can tell if you have successfully completed one step before moving on to the next step Volume 1 costs less than $25,

There is more useful information in this 75 page collection of articles than in all of Graham's 3 books totalling over 500 pages and his 10 or so DVD's combined. In addition, I found numerous typos and errors throughout Grahams books and the Index. 

I found that rather telling, in light of the fact that he repeatedly cites Rex Carr's quote stating "It is unreasonable to expect your dog to be more precise than you are" After reading his stuff, I'm not surprised that he apparently has never come close to titling a dog

I agree with other posters that you need to join a training group, or somehow find a knowledgeable coach to assist you. I also agree that you should save your money and not buy any DVD's. with the exception of his Collar Conditioning DVD which is done with Dennis Voight, and shows exactly how the training is done and how and when pressure is applied. I found little value in his other 2 DVD's as well as every other DVD by other trainers that I have seen. I just don't think the medium translates well to dog training. Maybe thats just me
And I most certainly wouldn't pay any money to anyone to try assist the training of my dog over the phone. LOL


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## Pete (Dec 24, 2005)

Its an interesting thought
Some people can read something and get a whole lot out of it and others draw a blank. My wife thinks I'm nuts ,,,but I read text books. And I can get alot out of them including enjoyment. My wife reads novels and I think she's nuts,,but she gets alot of the same stuff out of them. She even figures out how to do things from them.

I have friends that have attended both seminars and they enjoyed each of them immensely. Each person walks away with a better understanding about different things. There all stepping stones to being a better handler /trainer.
Personally I don't think there is anything wrong for charging for ones time,,,especially on a consulting level.

The hobbiest looks at things differently than a person who has to look at dogs all day and never gets a break from them.

There are alot of ways at looking at something. And not all people look the same not only that but we all don't see the same either

Pete


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## greg magee (Oct 24, 2007)

I personally prefer the Kappes & Curtis instructional video. If you can find an old copy of these tapes they will be very benificial to your training program. The production quality of these tapes is fair at best, but the information that is given is top rate. A must have for all serious dog trainers. They are hard to find now, but if you contact some one in the Minnesota mafia they might be able to help you.


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Alex said:


> I own and have reviewed both of these programs
> 
> IMHO there is no comparison between the 2 programs
> 
> ...


oh crickey another hate post. What a pity this subject cant be discussed without the abuse. 
lets see Alex, how about backing up some of your more sweeping generalizations with some facts. we are all waiting for your review since you claim to own both the lardy and the Graham programs. Also please fill us in as to your credentials as a dog trainer so we can give your critique the appropriate weight it deserves,
Can you also point out some of the "numerous" typo's in smartworks so Evan can make the necessary corrections
this thread is supposed to be about which retriever training program is best suited to an individual trainer. Which program is producing the best results for the amateur trainer?
i know for a fact that the 1993 Australian national champion's trainer is a smartworks enthusiast
the bottom line Alex is that retriever trainers throughout the world enjoy both programs and if your preference is for lardys thats fine but why the need to demean smartworks and denigrate Evan. SHAME ON YOU ALEX


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## Byron Musick (Sep 19, 2008)

I have not seen Mike Lardy's stuff. Eight months ago I knew absolutely NOTHING about training a retriever....I've found Evan Graham's material the easiest for me to understand and it is detailed enough that I have my dog doing things I never thought possible.. Now does that mean my dog can win a FC or a JH for the matter? Actually for me it does not matter, this is between me and my dog, and the relationship between us, which has been extremely enhanced by Smartworks program.

I find it hard to see some of the negative comments, especially about the 100 dollar consultation fee's... I've personally have been helped by Mr. Graham with issues, he has always offered to assist with his material when needed, I've seen him help folks, even on the phone without charging them to help resolve training material issues. He has a very good, detailed program, we should respect that. JMHO....

R/ Byron


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## lablover (Dec 17, 2003)

Alex said:


> I own and have reviewed both of these programs
> 
> IMHO there is no comparison between the 2 programs
> 
> ...


Another degrading post, that is uncalled for on these forums. Continued abuse will cause this useful thead to be locked, and everyone looses.


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## laker (Sep 12, 2008)

Alex, your post was rude and in poor taste. There's no need to put down a fellow formite like that.
I've seen a lot of great advise from Evan on here and I'm glad he's around.
If you don't care for his program, fine,,,but you don't need to rip him on a public forum.


The downside of the internet.


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## okvet (Jun 20, 2006)

laker said:


> Alex, your post was rude and in poor taste. There's no need to put down a fellow formite like that.
> I've seen a lot of great advise from Evan on here and I'm glad he's around.
> If you don't care for his program, fine,,,but you don't need to rip him on a public forum.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. 

I had a pro (good friend) to help me with my dog but I also ordered Evan's books and while I didn't follow then I did use a lot of the info to help me with certain problems and also used a lot of his drills training techniques to help me train my dog. While Evan doesn't have the accomplishments in the field as Mike Lardy it sure doesn't mean that Evan's training materials are worthless. Evan has always been a big contributer her and always willing to help new young trainers.


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## KNorman (Jan 6, 2003)

I've found useful information from every training resource I've ever used, including my old tattered copy of WaterDog.

If you think you can't learn anything, that's when you stop growing as a trainer.

My personal favorites are all of Lardy's stuff, a liberal dose of SmartWork, 10 minute Retriever, and I also like Carol Cassity's drill book.


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## rardijoh (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for all the input here. I went ahead and ordered all the DVD's and the articles 1,2,3.

I got the DVD's because sometimes for me it is easier to see also. 

Pretty excited to get started.


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## Sundown49 aka Otey B (Jan 3, 2003)

I have most of the stuff mentioned here. I was in business for myself for several years and found that if I listened to even my most lowly employee I could learn something. 

I have come up with my own methods for my dogs from taking what works for me and my dogs from all of the material and using this. 
I also, whenever possible, train with pros and pick their brains for new info on things that have been giving me problems. I am FAR from being a good trainer but I am flexible enough to not belittle any ideas from anyone. 

In some of the older material I have slingshots and shotguns were used instead of an ecollar but by adapting the info it is some good stuff. One of the best handling books was written by D.L. Walters. To suceed in nanything you have to be able to adapt.....just my opinion.


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## Vicki Worthington (Jul 9, 2004)

EVERY DOG IS DIFFERENT!

While any programmatic course work will give you a general idea of the methodology to use, the response you are seeking, and the progression to the next step, there is NO book that can absolutely explain YOUR dog's reaction to how you implement, how he learns, and when YOUR dog is truly ready for the next step. Actually, until you spend a lot of time with the folks who actually train dogs it's really hard to understand when they have learned the decision-making process or when they have just memorized a particular drill but don't get the lesson at all--how to minimize pressure!

If you really want to learn to train a dog, do what the pros do but on a smaller scale. Go "apprentice" to learn the things you need to know in a "hands-on" manner. Observe different dogs and their reactions to basics, drills, field work. Handle as many dogs as you can so that you understand that all dogs are NOT ALIKE. While basics is often much of a mechanical process, the dogs themselves are not the well-oiled machines we would like them to be.

My advice, pick the most successful trainer available to you, spend as much time there as you can, observe, discuss, ask questions and you will learn much more than you could EVER learn from any book or dvd set.


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## Bklk (Aug 3, 2008)

First, let me qualify myself. I don't know much about anything but I do know a few things about somethings. I've learned that the person who speaks the loudest most times knows the least. I enjoy this site because I can learn from each person who posts, even the rude ones. I thnk you can read both programs and gain something from each.


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## Golddogs (Feb 3, 2004)

rardijoh said:


> Okay my trainer told me to get the Mike Lardy DVD's and books.
> 
> So I start searching for more info and get that he is hard to understand for the new guy and I should get Evan Graham. He has more detail in his videos.
> 
> ...


Both metholds are Carr based. Both follow a progression. I have found the SmarkWork series easier to follow for a new person and Lardy material a bit more difficult. I use them both as well as help from skilled friends. You cannot learn it all from a tape. They are good reference material and a HUGE help, but you will be wellserved to hook up with a training group or club that actually has training sessions. 

On a personal note, Evan has asnwered more questions for me theat Mike.


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

stoney said:


> oh crickey another hate post. What a pity this subject cant be discussed without the abuse.
> lets see Alex, how about backing up some of your more sweeping generalizations with some facts. we are all waiting for your review since you claim to own both the lardy and the Graham programs. Also please fill us in as to your credentials as a dog trainer so we can give your critique the appropriate weight it deserves,
> Can you also point out some of the "numerous" typo's in smartworks so Evan can make the necessary corrections
> this thread is supposed to be about which retriever training program is best suited to an individual trainer. Which program is producing the best results for the amateur trainer?
> ...


1993?

/Paul


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

Vicki is right. You cannot learn to train dogs from a DVD. Get with a good pro or am and take your turn in a pop and throw station.

/Paul


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

I agree that Alex's venomous post was uncalled for.

I have a guess as to why Evan started charging for telephone conversations. When I went to his seminar about 3 1/2 years ago I had just read his books. I read them in preparation for the seminar. I had not tried to apply any of it yet because I was just starting a new puppy who was very young at the time (maybe 2 months old). As I read Smartworks I had a long list of questions that I wrote down on a legal pad. Very specific stuff like "on page. 62 where you said ".....". I didn't want to ask all of those question during the seminar because I figured if I just shut up, paid attention and let others ask questions most of my questions would be answered and I could ask the remaining questions toward the end.

When it was over I did still have some questions. Evan was not able to answer all of them at that time because I waited too late and the seminar had already stretched beyond the allotted time (it was 2 or 3 days btw). He gave us all his number and he told me he would be happy to answer my questions later on the phone. I called him later and he did answer them. He also answered a couple more for me later (on the phone, no charge).

Later, when I saw that he had started charging for telephone consultations, I immediately had a guess as to the reason. I know the retriever community is pretty small compared to others, but Evan has sold quite a few books and dvd's and spoken to quite a few people at seminars. Evan is very approachable and this probably makes people feel quite comfortable with the idea of calling him. I'm guessing that it got to the point that he was fielding so many questions and giving so much advice on the phone that it was hard to get anything else done. I'm guessing that charging for telephone consultations was a way of getting this under control without having to begin refusing to talk to people on the telephone at all. If you look at it that way it is a very reasonable solution to his problem and still quite customer service oriented.


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Gun_Dog2002 said:


> 1993?
> 
> /Paul


sorry paul
I meant 2003
Gee I hope the personal attacks stop and someone objectively compares the different systems using facts, and examples.
Maybe Alex will post up his review shortly
I think that was the objective of the thread initially


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## Gun_Dog2002 (Apr 22, 2003)

stoney said:


> sorry paul
> I meant 2003
> Gee I hope the personal attacks stop and someone objectively compares the different systems using facts, and examples.
> Maybe Alex will post up his review shortly
> I think that was the objective of the thread initially


ah. Had me a bit confused. I didn't think Evan has tapes back then....

/Paul


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## Jason Brion (May 31, 2006)

rardijoh said:


> Thanks for all the input here. I went ahead and ordered all the DVD's and the articles 1,2,3.
> 
> I got the DVD's because sometimes for me it is easier to see also.
> 
> Pretty excited to get started.


GOOD FOR YOU! Welcome to the game. Get ready, your life is about to be turned upside down.


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks to all of you for the self-moderating tone that many of you have brought to this thread.

I honestly believe that in many cases, the best way for the moderator/administrator to "control" conversations going astray is to let the board users themselves steer it back on course.

Personal preference plays into much of this, in terms of whose program best suits which trainer. 

Personal attacks and insults, along with hateful, defamatory content have no use on this board - especially not in the context of the information sought by the guy who started this thread.

Alex, feel free to reply to my private message to you. While I'm not requiring that you reveal your true identity to all (although I do believe that would be the upstanding thing to do) I do ask that you shoot me a reply to my private message to you. 

Thanks,

Chris


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## patrickb (Jan 2, 2009)

Alex you have drawn me out of my no post status...

I am a novice trainer as well (notice the #1 to the left) but I have recently purchased the Smartworks DVDs and they have been great. I have read many of the books listed earlier in the thread. The Smartwork DVD's really help me out because I get to actually watch him train. The books help me put forth a plan but the DVD's helped me see the trainer/dog interaction. For a beginner, the FF process is pretty intimidating and it was nice to watch him interact with the dog. My questions when reading or watching are always 'How do I know when they've got it?', 'How long do I do this?', What should their response look like?'. Smartworks get's my vote and maybe my $100 phone call. 

Bummer Alex, I think you've kicked the wrong ant pile. The reason I went with Evan's Smartworks is because of the reputation his training carries in these forums and the character I've seen him exhibit on many threads, the passion he has for training, and the patience he has with new trainers. This is not reflection on Mike Lardy and I know Evan nor his training need my defense. Toe-to-Toe, Alex, I think you fall a little short. Way to start strong!


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## Brent Keever (Jun 14, 2008)

Very nicely put patrick I am using Evans program also. Its just what I found through my research suited me.


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## tpaschal30 (Oct 11, 2005)

I've got Rorem, Evan, Lardy, Dahl, Wolters, Jackies, Fowldowgs, Butch Goodwin and others. They all have something to offer. The important thing is to pick a program and stay in that framework as best you can. Jumping around based on suggestions on here, other places, or books has set me back more than anything else. Plan your work and work your plan. Gleaning info to help with a situation or help understanding the process is different than jumping around. Getting in too big of a hurry is a big enemy as well. It leads to jumping around and glossing over. Good luck and keep being determined. You will need it.


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## Alex (Jan 22, 2008)

stoney said:


> Can you also point out some of the "numerous" typo's in smartworks so Evan can make the necessary corrections
> this thread is supposed to be about which retriever training program is best suited to an individual trainer. i know for a fact that the 1993 Australian national champion's trainer is a smartworks enthusiast


I did not mean to denigrate Mr Graham personally. I was only trying to point out factors to be considered in the relative merit of the 2 programs, which is what the starter of the thread asked for I apologize for the negative aspects of my post.

As an example of some of the errors in smartworks, I refer you to page 181 of Smartwork Vol 1 2nd edition. This is the first page of the Index.

Under A) there are 4 references It says the definition of Attrition is on pg. 155, which is incorrect

Under letter B) there are 10 references of which 6 are incorrect; including:
banana line pg. 154
BB blinds drills & diagrams pg. 113
defined pg. 156
pattern blinds pg. 57
transition to cold water pg. 123 [blank page]
Burn; defined pg. 163

Under letter C) there are 22 references of which 7 are incorrect; including
Casting, double T pg. 95 {blank page}
Tune up drill pg. 123 [blank page]
Cheating, single marks/advancedmarking procedure pg. 139 [blank page]
Compounds pg.101 [blank page]

This is an example of some of the errors you asked me to point out. There existence makes it very difficult to use as a field referrence.

Whether the Australian National winner were in 1993 or 2003, I believe both would precede the publication of Smartworks.



Back to lurking status
G'day Mate

Alex Paul


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Alex said:


> I did not mean to denigrate Mr Graham personally. Alex Paul


Alex i think it is very decent of you to apologize but i struggle to see how you could have thought that the things you described Evan as could be taken as anything but extremely offensive. I think almost everyone is aware of the wonderful record of Mike lardy in fieldtrials but we were compareing training systems not personalities. Like you I also own and enjoy mike lardy's material but unlike you I think Evans smartworks program is far more comprehensive, detail matters. Both Evan and Mike present extremely well and it is possible to have an opinion or preference without making incoherent and unsubstanciated statements about the other.
A more productive discussion on this thread would be to compare specifics such as how both programs present FF, basic obedience, pile work , CC etc I think Lardy's cheating singles segment is very strong but he skims over FF. Evan is very detailed in FF and his transition series is very comprehensive. Mike Lardy doesnt cover drills like walking baseball and Evan does
As for the typo's i will have to check them out but i do consider them of little consequence either way
i think it is courageous that you signed your name and I hope you continue to post. evan graham is a gentleman and Im sure he will accept your apology and we can all move on


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## Socks (Nov 13, 2008)

Alex said:


> I did not mean to denigrate Mr Graham personally. I was only trying to point out factors to be considered in the relative merit of the 2 programs, which is what the starter of the thread asked for I apologize for the negative aspects of my post.
> 
> As an example of some of the errors in smartworks, I refer you to page 181 of Smartwork Vol 1 2nd edition. This is the first page of the Index.
> 
> ...


Big of you to state the above. Unfortunately I'm a bit of a rable rouser.

"This is an example of some of the errors you asked me to point out. Their existence makes it very difficult to use as a field referrence."


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Alex said:


> I did not mean to denigrate Mr Graham personally. I was only trying to point out factors to be considered in the relative merit of the 2 programs, which is what the starter of the thread asked for I apologize for the negative aspects of my post.
> 
> Whether the Australian National winner were in 1993 or 2003, I believe both would precede the publication of Smartworks. (_*Smartwork*_)
> 
> ...


Alex,

I appreciate and happily accept your apology. Let me clarify a couple items for the sake of accuracy. We discovered more errors than we apparently were able to change in time for publication of our second edition as it was burned to CD for its current publisher. But we are in the process of another proof read and re-edit of Smartwork volume one. We'll put the other two books through the same process while we're at it. A few others have kindly pointed out errors that we have addressed.

The typo's, some of which originally existed, went along for the ride when reloading the files, which were originally written on a computer with an XP operating system, then copied to an external drive, and copied back to the new computer (with a Vista operating system). Some fonts were changed, sizes, spacing, and a few page numbers that no longer correlated properly with the index have resulted. We just haven't yet solved all of those things. Frankly, it's not been on the front burner due to DVD production concerns as we have been stepping up production.

What I'm most eager to respond to are any questions about content of any of the training directives in the system. I welcome any discussion of, or constructive dialogue regarding how I teach. I welcome PM's, email, or even a phone call, if it's more urgent. There are literally hundreds of Smartwork system users who can attest to that.

As Smartwork for Retrievers volume one has been in print since 2001, Mr. Parkinson's 2003 win is one of many success stories I'm espeially proud to have been a part of. Graeme Parkinson and I have exchange emails over the years, and he's been a successful trainer for quite some time.

If something truly good can come from this thread, I hope it's that similar questions in the future can be discussed more constructively. I'm deeply grateful to those who chose to post in a manner that was both respectful and productive.

No hard feelings. Good training always,

Evan


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## Alex (Jan 22, 2008)

stoney said:


> As for the typo's i will have to check them out but i do consider them of little consequence either way


I think this shows that you have no objectivity


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## Alex (Jan 22, 2008)

Evan said:


> Alex,
> 
> I appreciate and happily accept your apology. Let me clarify a couple items for the sake of accuracy. We discovered more errors than we apparently were able to change in time for publication of our second edition as it was burned to CD for its current publisher. But we are in the process of another proof read and re-edit of Smartwork volume one. We'll put the other two books through the same process while we're at it. A few others have kindly pointed out errors that we have addressed.
> 
> ...


Evan, This raises a number of questions that you need to address.

First you say that you discovered "more errors than we apparently were able to change in time for publication of our second edition".
Wouldn't it have been prudent and fairer to your customers to have delayed production until you had the errors corrected?
This would have prevented people such as myself from having paid good money for a defective product. 
In the process it woulds have created and engendered better goodwill and reputation for your product.

In regards to fixing these known errors, You stated; "Frankly it's not been on the front burner due to DVD production concerns as we have been stepping up production"
Don't you think it would be better for all involved to put it on "the front burner" and get the problems fixed with your existing defective product line, before worrying about amping up production of your future products?

Lastly, your buddy Stoney assured me in an earlier post that you are a gentleman. So, What will you do to reimburse those of us that own your books and DVD's that you admittedly knew were defective?
I think the gentlemanly thing to do would be to offer us a full refund of the money we spent.

Gentlemans regards


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## KwickLabs (Jan 3, 2003)

Tunnel vision is a gift.....that at times should remain wrapped. 

Hallmark imposter regards, Jim


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## HuntinDawg (Jul 2, 2006)

Alex said:


> So, What will you do to reimburse those of us that own your books and DVD's that you admittedly knew were defective?


Who said anything about defective DVD's?

You do know you're making an arse of yourself right?


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## stoney (Apr 6, 2004)

Alex said:


> I think this shows that you have no objectivity


Alex
your kidding, you come on here and post up that Evan is an internet wannatabe and a salesman then you state that there is more useful information in lardys articles than in all Evans material combined. not only are you abusive but you offer no facts to support your argument.Now you tell me that i am not objective because I dont consider a few typos as being significent and i am much more interested in content. why dont you debate the issue of content with me Alex,i would like to see some substance behind your wild and defamatory accusations


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## Goosehunterdog (Jul 3, 2006)

For what it is worth as far as a formal retailer of the Smartwork program we feel that it is a Great program but can be overwhelming for the "beginner" with the amount of DVD's and the "complete set sale" when indeed it is not complete as far as the DVD's...The books are a complete program and we like them very much..We had many happy as well as several unhappy customers of the Smartwork program.(I guess we are all human)We had complaints on the "typo's" in the Smartwork books , we had to replace "at our cost" DVD's that would fall out of the plastic cases and get scratched or were broken.We also had several that came in a Water Force & Swimby Case and had Smartwork & Swimby as artwork on the DVD's that were actually Smartwork Obedeince?? We replaced all of these at "Our Cost"...We made Evan aware of the issue and he was already aware of some of these issues..I am sure that Evan has made improvements in the above "but" we lost quite a bit of money on replacements..Another issue in our decision to stop the retail of the Smartwork series was the "Packaged Deals" that Evan started offering..Great for the economy and the buyer and was offered to us at a lower cost "but" the fact remained that we had already purchased thousands of dollars worth the "singles" at a higher price and we got undercut.I realize that it was due to the economy and business was hurting for all of the business world and the consumers as well..It was the "fact" that it got us "stuck" with a large volume of DVD's that were not moving until we offered them for way under our cost..We "Still" have a bunch that needs to go!!!!! As far as the topic Smartwork vs Lardy we think that they are both Great Training Aids...Smartwork Book ( Volume 1) was a great seller and as far as DVD's Basic Handeling and SmartFetch were Great...Our Top for Mike Lardy is Total E-Collar Conditioning (we have a hard time keeping it on the shelves)!!!!!! I feel that the if I had to pick a program between the two I would go with Mike Lardy because I feel that it has the amount of detail and is a Great value for the money if I were to buy it all at once!! If I were going one at a time I would buy Smartwork Series....I personally would do as much homework as possible but no matter what program you follow you are not going to find all of the answers..The best advice would be to find a mentor or join a retriever club..


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## Evan (Jan 5, 2003)

Alex said:


> Wouldn't it have been prudent and fairer to your customers to have delayed production until you had the errors corrected?


Since it was not published by us at Rush Creek Press, and the new publisher had deadlines to meet, these typos were not esteemed to alter the instruction, and were matters that could be handled later. We do not publish any of the books, but are continuing our efforts, as stated. The products have clarical errors, but the instruction is not defective. 

We do, however produce our own DVD's, and demand for them as spurred expansion of the production processes. Apparently your efforts to tarnish our reputation continue to fail.


Alex said:


> I think the gentlemanly thing to do would be to offer us a full refund of the money we spent.
> 
> Gentlemans regards


I have two questions in response.

Have you ever asked me privately about any of this, as a gentleman would have done?
Would you really be able to recognize a gentlemanly act?
My email and phone number are both available on our web site, and have been since we placed it on the Internet. I don't recall any contact from you stating all or any of these earnest concerns. 

_Gentleman_: a man who conforms to a high standard of proprietary or correct behavior

Our email and phone continue to function, and I remain available to respond to appropriate contact regarding any genuine concerns. I do not consider this defamatory exchange appropriate, and will no longer respond to your attacks.

Evan


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## BrianW (May 10, 2005)

Alex said:


> As an example of some of the errors in smartworks,
> 
> This is an example of some of the errors you asked me to point out. *There* existence makes it very difficult to use as a field *referrence*.
> I believe both would precede the publication of Smartworks.


Alex, I hope next time you post, you'll use spell check or lighten up on this "typos" thing because I see at least 4 errors in this post alone. :lol: 
Only 1 "s" in "Smartwork" mate!


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## Chris Atkinson (Jan 3, 2003)

This one's toast. rardijoh, I hope you got some answers and my apologies that it turned as it has.

Bummer.... *click*

Chris


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